Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 10071

1 Tuesday, 6 June 2006

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 --- Upon commencing at 12.37 p.m.

5 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Lukic.

6 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Your Honours.

7 Just very briefly, I see that Mr. Moore is waiting address the

8 Court as well before the witness is brought in. There is one concern that

9 I would like to express. Just this morning we received an addendum to the

10 statement of the witness who is about to appear. It appears to be quite

11 important. I think our questions will reflect that, and also the

12 Prosecutor's questions concerning all the new things that the witness has

13 now added to his statement.

14 As for my concern, however, and I informed Mr. Moore that I would

15 be informing you, we see that the OTP interviewed the 19th of May about

16 this addendum. We only got this this morning at 10.00. I think this

17 severely prejudiced us in preparing our cross-examination of this witness.

18 That is what I wish to inform you about.

19 We are not applying for any sort of deferral at all, but I think

20 it would only be fair to be given this sort of addendum at the time the

21 witness actually signs it. I think we should have been informed ahead of

22 time. That's all I wish to say.

23 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you, Mr. Lukic.

24 Mr. Moore.

25 MR. MOORE: It's correct, the witness was seen on the 19th of May.

Page 10072

1 It is one page, it deals with nine points. Major Sljivancanin's name is

2 mentioned once, the other defendants are not mentioned. It deals with two

3 or individuals, principally, Vukasinovic and Karanfilov. It's not if

4 possible to transcribe documents like this immediately. The next time

5 that we were able to see the witness was yesterday when we were here, or I

6 was here. He read it, he agreed it, and he signed it. And that was the

7 first time that it could then be released because we were not able to have

8 it signed before then.

9 And with the utmost respect to my learned friend, it is not a

10 major area of concern. It deals with areas of evidence that the Court

11 have already heard about. There is nothing new about this. It deals

12 about incidents at Ovcara.

13 JUDGE PARKER: The Chamber, of course, does not see this, so it

14 doesn't know for itself at the moment what it is that has been exchanged.

15 Thank you, Mr. Moore. Was there some other matter, Mr. Moore.

16 MR. MOORE: No, there is no other matter at all. We are ready to

17 call the witness.

18 JUDGE PARKER: We will have the witness then.

19 MR. MOORE: Thank you very much.

20 [The witness entered court]

21 JUDGE PARKER: Good afternoon.

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good afternoon.

23 JUDGE PARKER: Would you please read aloud the affirmation on the

24 card that is given to you now.

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak

Page 10073

1 the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth.

2 JUDGE PARKER: Please sit down.


4 [Witness answered through interpreter]

5 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Moore.

6 MR. MOORE: To assist the Court, this witness has voice distortion

7 and image distortion, and I regrettably will have to make an application

8 for much of his evidence to be in private session. The nature of the

9 evidence that he gives would lead to his ready identification. However, I

10 can deal with the first part in open session.

11 Examination by Mr. Moore:

12 Q. I wonder, Witness, if you would kind enough, please, to look at

13 these personal details and confirm that they are accurate.

14 A. They are.

15 MR. MOORE: Might I make application that they be made an exhibit

16 under seal, please.

17 JUDGE PARKER: It will be received under seal.

18 MR. MOORE: Thank you very much.

19 THE REGISTRAR: That will be exhibit number 557, Your Honours,

20 under seal.

21 MR. MOORE: Might I ask now to go into private session, please.

22 JUDGE PARKER: Now, is this a prolonged proposal or for a short

23 time?

24 MR. MOORE: The curriculum vitae, the background, would be in

25 private, and there are parts of his evidence that would make him readily

Page 10074

1 identifiable. And I will try and ensure that his evidence is in open

2 session as much as possible.

3 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you.

4 [Private session]

5 (redacted)

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Page 10075











11 Pages 10075-10082 redacted. Private session.















Page 10083

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 [Open session]

4 THE REGISTRAR: We are in open session, Your Honours.


6 Q. Witness 001, I would like to now ask you, through your time of

7 service in Vukovar, did you at any time go to Ovcara?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. What were the circumstances of you going to Ovcara, please?

10 A. I went to Ovcara under the following circumstances: There was a

11 certain number of prisoners, members of the ZNG, and the situation was an

12 unstable one, a critical one. I, and members of my unit, were to do our

13 best and ensure that the prisoners are protected and later on I guess

14 transported to certain military institutions or prisons.

15 Q. We believe that the fall of Vukovar was the 18th of November. If

16 one uses that as a yard-stick, are you able to say when it was you

17 received that contact?

18 A. That was two days later on the 20th of November.

19 Q. So how many people actually went with you to Ovcara?

20 A. My rough estimate is eight to 10.

21 Q. Had you ever participated in a role before where you were asked to

22 intervene in a difficult situation?

23 A. Yes. That was sometime before the final fighting, when a group of

24 volunteers refused to carry out commands and participate in combat,

25 expressing their desire to go back, or rather to desert the combat area.

Page 10084

1 However, they wanted to leave the area with their equipment and weapons.

2 There was a need to intervene urgently, because they were being --

3 expressing lack of subordination.

4 I met with several commanders -- I intercepted a group with a

5 group of commanders, and I immediately made it known to them that I would

6 accept no insubordination. That was between Negoslavci and Vukovar, on

7 the road between those two places. I forced them to discard all of their

8 weapons and equipment and then we proceeded to frisk them.

9 While doing that we found on them a certain amount of money,

10 jewellery. Then we turned them over to the command in Negoslavci.

11 Q. When you went to Ovcara, how long did it take you to arrive from

12 your location to actually Ovcara itself?

13 A. Some 20 minutes. 15 to 20 minutes.

14 Q. And when you arrived at Ovcara, what did you find, please?

15 A. It was night-time. Could have been sometime between 9.00

16 and 10.00 p.m. By the hangar -- or, rather, we stopped by the hangar and

17 I saw the lights of a bus which were turned on. I came out and I saw

18 Major Vukasinovic who right then told me that I should stay there and

19 ensure that the prisoners, whom I later saw in the hangar, are safe.

20 Q. How did you actually get there? Did you walk or did you go by

21 vehicle?

22 A. We drove with our vehicles. That is to say our jeeps.

23 Q. You have told us that you stopped at the hangar and you were told

24 to stay there. How long did you actually remain at Ovcara?

25 A. In my view, 15 to 20 minutes, give or take a few.

Page 10085

1 Q. Did you see any other officer that you recognised?

2 A. I also saw Captain Karanfilov.

3 Q. Were you able to see what was happening in the hangar?

4 A. Yes. When I looked inside through the open door, I saw on the

5 right side, on the right from the entrance door, a group of people with

6 terrified expressions on their faces. They stood about one metre away

7 from a rope, which was tied from one end -- from one wall to the other

8 one. What remained vividly in my mind was a stench that was most likely

9 the result of enormous fear.

10 Members of my unit started entering the hangar, I told them to

11 come out. And at that point we came out.

12 Q. Did you eventually leave the hangar area?

13 A. Yes. We came out, and then for some time we stood outside of the

14 hangar, in front of it.

15 Q. Did anyone speak to you about whether you should stay or remain?

16 Stay or leave, my apologies.

17 A. Major Vukasinovic did. He gave me orders to -- he gave me orders

18 stating that there was no longer any need for us to be there, and that we

19 could go back to where we had come from.

20 Q. May I deal with the people that you saw inside. How would you

21 describe their demeanour at that time?

22 A. Their conduct was typical for people whose fate, or rather whose

23 life at that point in time are absolutely beyond their control. There was

24 a lot of fear, tremendous fear that one could see on the faces of these

25 people. There was some sort of a lamp shedding light on their faces, so

Page 10086

1 their expressions were quite visible. It was a humiliating expression

2 that they had on their faces which, I guess, is common among people who

3 are imprisoned.

4 Q. When you were ordered by Major Vukasinovic that there was no

5 reason for you to remain, what did you do?

6 A. We got back into our jeeps and we started driving back towards

7 Vukovar. That is to say, back towards the high school building in Vukovar

8 where part of my unit was to spend the night that night.

9 Q. When you were in the area of Ovcara and the hangar, did you hear

10 any other noises?

11 A. As we were travelling back towards the high school, towards

12 Vukovar, I heard fire shots.

13 Q. I've heard "fire shots" in translation. Is that the same as

14 firing?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Were you able to say how close that firing was to the hangar at

17 Ovcara?

18 A. Not precisely, but judging by the intensity, I would say that it

19 was a matter of several hundred metres.

20 MR. MOORE: Would Your Honour give me one moment, please.

21 Q. Did you ever know the leader of a TO unit with the name of Stanko?

22 A. Visually, yes.

23 Q. Did you know him before the 20th of November? When I say "know,"

24 I mean visually know?

25 A. Yes.

Page 10087

1 Q. Did you ever know a leader of a TO unit called Miroljub?

2 A. No.

3 Q. Did you get to know him after the 20th of November?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. When you went to the hangar for that brief period, did you see

6 either of those two gentlemen at the hangar?

7 A. No.

8 Q. Can we deal then, please, with one or two other areas of your

9 evidence. Do you know an officer called Captain Papic?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Have you ever had any conversation with Papic about the matters at

12 Ovcara?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Can you remember when you had a conversation with Papic about what

15 occurred at Ovcara?

16 A. That was a conversation held at a canteen when we were having

17 breakfast. That was in early 1992. At that time he spoke about the

18 bodies which were covered with soil by bulldozers. He was a commander of

19 a mechanised unit, and he said that his equipment and his people took part

20 in burying bodies at Ovcara.

21 Q. Did Papic indicate what he felt when he was obliged to do that?

22 A. Yes. He felt sickened by it. That was the dominant sentiment.

23 Q. I want to move to a different topic, if I may, please. Do you

24 know or did you know in 1991 an officer called Borisavljevic?

25 A. Yes.

Page 10088

1 Q. Did you have any conversation with Borisavljevic about incidents

2 that occurred at the Vukovar area?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Can you tell the Court what was said, please?

5 A. I apologise. Borisavljevic told me the following: Once the

6 combat ceased in Vukovar and when armed resistance ceased, some of the

7 prisoners were put in the Vukovar barracks. He was in charge of them. At

8 one point in time a man called Zeljko Raznjatovic, nicknamed Arkan,

9 appeared. At the time he was known as the commander of the Serb volunteer

10 guard. He demanded that he turn over the group of prisoners to him.

11 Since Borisavljevic declined to do that, Arkan was visibly upset, and he

12 threatened him, saying that he would nevertheless have to hand them over.

13 Another incident that he told me about was the event in a facility

14 called Velepromet. One night he was summoned there, and when he arrived

15 he saw guards, ordinary JNA soldiers, but members of the military police

16 who were there as guards, guarding the people at Velepromet. He saw

17 several corpses, bloody walls, and traces on bodies indicating that they

18 were fired at from a fire-arm at close range. This is what Borisavljevic

19 told me about these two instances.

20 Q. Is it right that you have subsequently left Serbia - I think it

21 was in 1996 - and you are now a resident in another country?

22 A. Yes. That's correct.

23 MR. MOORE: I have no further questions for the witness.

24 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you, Mr. Moore.

25 Mr. Vasic.

Page 10089

1 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours. Just a

2 second, please.

3 Good afternoon to everyone.

4 Cross-examination by Mr. Vasic:

5 Q. Good afternoon, sir.

6 A. Good afternoon.

7 Q. I need to ask you something. Since both of us speak the same

8 language, I would like to ask you to make a short break before answering

9 my questions. There are two reasons for that. One is that you are a

10 protected witness, and we shouldn't let your voice escape through my

11 microphone. The other reason is to give a chance to interpreters to

12 interpret my questions and your answers so that everybody can follow our

13 dialogue.

14 A. I understand.

15 Q. I will continue where my learned friend left it off.

16 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] And perhaps we should go into private

17 session at this point, because this has to do precisely with the

18 circumstances surrounding the departure of the witness.

19 JUDGE PARKER: Private.

20 [Private session]

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 10090











11 Pages 10090-10099 redacted. Private session.















Page 10100

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13 [Open session]

14 THE REGISTRAR: We are in open session, Your Honours.

15 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you.

16 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

17 Your Honours, in view of the ruling of the Trial Chamber to set

18 aside two weeks in order to bring in expert witnesses who should be

19 present when Mr. Theunens testifies, that would bring us to the 19th that

20 my learned friend mentioned, and that date would be fine with the Defence.

21 I believe we should be able to organise everything needed for our expert

22 witnesses.

23 As for the other questions you put, Your Honours, as to the length

24 of cross-examination, I can't give you any estimates right now. As for

25 Mr. Theunens, his expert report has several hundred pages dealing with the

Page 10101

1 position and the role of the Yugoslav People's Army, which might be

2 interesting for us in view of its role in the geographic area from our

3 indictment. The other part of the report deals with the specific orders

4 issued by the 1st Military District and the guards brigade. The only

5 thing we can promise you is that the Defence will try to be as efficient

6 as possible. However, we have to cover with this expert witness some

7 issues that he wrote about but are not directly emanating from the text of

8 the law. There are certain portions where our opinions differ in relation

9 to that and in relation to some orders.

10 As for Mr. Pringle, I think the situation is even more complex,

11 because this expert witness provides his view of the situation linked to

12 our indictment which does not arise directly from the documentation as is

13 the case with Mr. Theunens.

14 Now, Mr. Kostovic. As my learned friend said, there will be some

15 issues that are disputed concerning some documents, MFI documents,

16 precisely because the Defence asked to be allowed to challenge some of the

17 facts mentioned there. We received some documents relating to

18 Mr. Kostovic's testimony, and we will deal only with those which we find

19 contentious. These are documents provided by Dr. Vesna Bosanac.

20 I can't tell you exactly how many such issues there are, but I can

21 promise you that we will only deal with those that are contentious in the

22 sense that they are not in compliance with some of our other documents.

23 I don't know if my other colleagues wish to contribute.

24 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Borovic.

25 MR. BOROVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours. I will be

Page 10102

1 very brief.

2 I fully support the efforts of the Trial Chamber to ensure that

3 the trial proceeds smoothly and efficiently. I believe it to be in

4 everybody's interests, especially in the interests of my client. However,

5 it would be good if the Prosecution would tell us exactly who their

6 witnesses are before expert witnesses. P-002 doesn't seem to be an

7 important witness to me, but if the Prosecution believes they are they

8 should have mentioned this earlier. We spoke about this a week or two

9 ago. If this witness is now certain to come then, once again, we find

10 ourselves in the situation where we do not know whether it's P-002 coming

11 or Grujic coming on Monday. So we would like for the Trial Chamber to

12 instruct the Prosecution to tell us definitely who is coming and when.

13 The Defence of Miroslav Radic will accept any schedule, even their

14 proposed schedule for expert witnesses.

15 JUDGE PARKER: As I understand it, Mr. Borovic, there will be one

16 witness after the present this week, then Mr. Grujic next Monday, and

17 perhaps Tuesday, with 002 to follow that. And then we get to the week of

18 Monday, the 21st of -- Monday, the 19th of June.

19 Now, for cross-examination of Theunens, Pringle and Kostovic.

20 MR. BOROVIC: [Interpretation] What Mr. Vasic said would suit us

21 best; namely, for the 19th of June to be set aside as the time for expert

22 witnesses.

23 As for the Defence of Radic, it is not necessary for us even to

24 bring in our expert witnesses, but we will need the time up to the 19th to

25 prepare. And we will not require much time for cross-examination. That

Page 10103

1 is to say, we will comply with all of your previous instructions on that

2 issue.

3 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you, Mr. Borovic.

4 And Mr. Lukic always tries to comply as well, I know.

5 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, if that is a compliment.

6 JUDGE PARKER: It's a prayer.

7 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] What you are probably most interested

8 in is the cross-examination, the length of it when it comes to expert

9 witnesses.

10 I am afraid that the cross-examination of such important witnesses

11 such as Theunens and Pringle should not be limited in advance. I will,

12 however, propose that you do something that you haven't done so far,

13 namely, if you find that some of the questions go beyond the proper scope

14 of cross-examination and that they are not relevant, I would suggest that

15 you instruct us accordingly to limit our cross-examination. However, I

16 find that I am unable to say that we will need an hour or two for these

17 expert witnesses. I would rather opt for this other option where you tell

18 us which questions you find irrelevant. I think that these are very

19 important witnesses and that we will comply with whatever is instructed.

20 As for our expert witnesses, we will ensure that they are present, and I

21 don't think that there will be a problem there, since we have two weeks to

22 organise that.

23 As for Kostovic, I think we agreed that his statement can be

24 admitted into evidence. And, just as Mrs. Tapuskovic did on Friday, we

25 will try to go by numbers and try to not make it too complicated.

Page 10104

1 JUDGE PARKER: Can I be more specific then, for Defence counsel:

2 Is it a practical idea to think that if the Prosecution took no more than

3 one session with Mr. Kostovic and no more than a session and a half with

4 both Mr. Theunens and Mr. Pringle that Mr. Kostovic could be finished in

5 one sitting day and Mr. Theunens and Mr. Pringle in two days. That would

6 give altogether for cross-examination about four and a half hours of each

7 of Theunens and Pringle. That way the three witnesses could be completed

8 Monday to Friday when your experts are available.

9 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] We have not spoken among ourselves, I

10 can just give you my position. Unless we have the long sitting hours, I

11 don't think that we should have enough time. I think all of us should

12 have the same amount of time as the Prosecution takes in

13 examination-in-chief. We can do our best, but I really fear that it will

14 be counter-productive to limit our time in advance. I can promise you we

15 will do our best.

16 JUDGE PARKER: [Previous translation continues] ... sitting days

17 on Tuesday, Wednesday and Thursday of that week. And that would actually

18 give you longer than we were proposing to limit the Prosecution to, you

19 see.

20 Mr. Vasic.

21 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.

22 I would just like to amplify what Mr. Lukic said to show you what

23 the view of the Defence is. Mr. Kostovic was asked to come to testify

24 precisely in order to clarify the problems that were found in the

25 documents provided by Dr. Bosanac. So his role is simply to clarify these

Page 10105

1 differences that exist, and we will focus exclusively on that.

2 As for experts Pringle and Theunens, I understand that it will be

3 enough for the Prosecution to have just one session or a session and a

4 half, because they will tender into evidence thousands of pages via expert

5 reports. But I am afraid that the Defence will need to cover report

6 perhaps not in its entirety, but at least to cover the issues that we find

7 contentious. So perhaps the proper way to limit this would be to ensure

8 that none of the questions are irrelevant and that they stay well within

9 the proper scope of examination-in-chief. Perhaps that would be the best

10 way rather than set a strict time limit.

11 JUDGE PARKER: I know that sounds more attractive to you,

12 Mr. Vasic, but it has the disadvantage that you might plan to

13 cross-examine for six days and then leave it to us to try and say no, that

14 question is no good, this question is no good. Whereas if you planned to

15 cross-examine for a fixed time you yourself will get to the matters that

16 are more important. We are trying to ensure that you have time to deal

17 with the important issues. We have never, I hope, limited your time so

18 that you have not been able to do that. Only Mr. Lukic has suffered,

19 being at the tail-end once or twice, I fear.

20 But, that aside, we have tried to give you full time to deal with

21 what is important. That time may not always have been well used, but

22 nevertheless it was there. And so just to say, well, look, if we think

23 something is too far out we'll stop you, we really don't know what it is

24 that's very important that's still to come. You know yourself what you

25 want to cover, so you are the best person to work out what is the most

Page 10106

1 important and to concentrate on that.

2 Thank you, then, for your assistance.

3 Mr. Moore, is there anything further?

4 MR. MOORE: The only other matter, because that would conclude the

5 case. The only other matter will be --

6 JUDGE PARKER: No, on that topic.

7 MR. MOORE: Oh, on that topic, no, not at all.

8 JUDGE PARKER: Yes. Now, you've got another topic.

9 MR. MOORE: It's really for Mr. Lukic. There are certain

10 interviews that the defendants participated in in Belgrade. It was going

11 to be our application that they are admissable. I think it's right to say

12 that Mr. Lukic takes the view that they are inadmissible. We need to

13 clarify --

14 JUDGE PARKER: Interviewed conducted by?

15 MR. MOORE: Interviews conducted by, I think, the military court

16 when the defendants were witnesses, made certain observations and

17 comments. We will be submitting that it is admissable and therefore

18 should be evidence before the Court. My learned friend Mr. Lukic, I

19 think, has submissions to the contrary. That has to be clarified.

20 Mr. Lukic is aware of it. It's not the case that the Defence have been

21 caught unawares. Perhaps he and I can discuss the matter outside.

22 JUDGE PARKER: Well, if that needs to be the subject of

23 submissions, they can be put briefly, I'm sure, and by the look of it,

24 there could be time even later this week.

25 MR. MOORE: Exactly.

Page 10107


2 So you can look forward to that, Mr. Lukic.

3 The Chamber will consider just what to do and perhaps before the

4 end of today let you know about the position of these coming witnesses.

5 Now, Mr. Moore, you need your witness.

6 MR. MOORE: Yes, if he could be recalled, please. Thank you.

7 [Trial Chamber confers]

8 JUDGE PARKER: May I indicate while we wait for the witness that

9 the view of the Chamber is that it should indicate that it would want to

10 hear the three experts in the week commencing the 19th of June. And to

11 that end the evidence in chief of Kostovic should not exceed one session,

12 and the evidence in chief of both Theunens and Pringle should not exceed

13 one and a half sessions each. And the Defence then will have the balance

14 of that time. And certainly with Kostovic, if he can be finished in less

15 than a day, because there really are only a number of specific issues,

16 that would allow more time for the other two experts.

17 If you could mention that to your colleagues, Mr. Moore, so that

18 we can have a speedy examination-in-chief.

19 [The witness entered court]

20 JUDGE PARKER: Yes, Mr. Vasic.

21 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Thank you very much, Your Honours.

22 Can we please go back into private session to complete the topic that we

23 began before the break.

24 JUDGE PARKER: Private.

25 [Private session]

Page 10108











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Page 10111

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17 [Open session]

18 THE REGISTRAR: We are in open session, Your Honours.

19 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

20 Q. Witness, do you agree that at this time there were no contacts

21 between members of the guards brigade and members of Goran Hadzic's

22 government either?

23 A. I don't know about that. It's not my place to speak about that.

24 Q. Are you aware of the fact that the HQ of the Serb volunteers'

25 guard on the one hand and the government seat on the other were both in

Page 10112

1 Erdut, north of Vukovar, that was in the area covered by Operations Group

2 North, the Novi Sad corps?

3 A. You are suggesting that the headquarters of the Serb volunteers'

4 guard was in Erdut, which at the same time was used as a training camp. I

5 did know about that. I was also aware of the fact that it was the

6 Novi Sad corps that was responsible for this sector.

7 As for the government of the Eastern Slavonia region or whatever

8 it was called at the time being in Dalj, now this is not something that I

9 knew about at the time.

10 Q. Thank you very much. You mentioned your conversation with Captain

11 Cedo Papic back in 1992. He was commander of the engineers' company. Do

12 you remember mentioning this to the OTP investigators when you provided

13 your statement?

14 Just a minute, please. I'm not sure if the witness thinks this

15 should be stricken, what I have just mentioned in my question. If so, I'm

16 sure we can oblige. Then we should go into private session. If not, we

17 can just continue in open session.

18 JUDGE PARKER: I believe you can continue, Mr. Vasic.

19 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Thank you very much, Your Honour.

20 Q. Witness, do you remember Mr. Papic saying that some members of his

21 company were burying bodies at Ovcara near Vukovar and that bodies were

22 being brought there uninterruptedly during the fighting? Do you remember

23 telling the OTP investigators about this, or perhaps you need to go back

24 to your statement to see what exactly it says?

25 A. If you are referring to a specific portion of the statement, could

Page 10113

1 you please provide a reference for me, page and paragraph, if possible.

2 Q. By all means. I'm talking about your statement to the OTP, the

3 page number is 9, the B/C/S ERN is 0304-7041. The English reference, for

4 the benefit of my learned friends ... I see that my learned friend has

5 found it already. I thank him for this speedy reaction.

6 Sir, this is paragraph 2 from the bottom of the page up. Isn't

7 this what you stated to the OTP investigators?

8 A. Yes, it is.

9 Q. Thank you.

10 A. You're quite welcome.

11 Q. You discuss events which you claim occurred at Velepromet. Would

12 you agree with me that throughout the fighting and after the fighting

13 Velepromet was under the control of Vukovar's TO and that the person in

14 charge of Velepromet was Mr. Ljubinko Stojanovic, later to become director

15 of Radio Vukovar. At the time he was assistant commander of the Vukovar

16 TO staff. You did say so to the investigators, didn't you?

17 A. Yes, I said that. But if I remember correctly I also said the

18 following: That Velepromet was used for the accommodation of civilians,

19 and according to my information people of Serb ethnicity were registered

20 and transported to Serbia while non-Serb civilians were kept there and

21 used for forced labour. That part of the statement, and I can mention the

22 family Crnobrnja there.

23 Q. Thank you very much. Today for the first time you mentioned

24 Ovcara in the context that you mentioned it in. Since we are in open

25 session, I'm not going to deal with any details. I would just like to ask

Page 10114

1 you what you would say if I were to tell you that the events you talked

2 about were actually two days before than you say, and that people from

3 that unit say that that was on the 18th of November, 1991, and not on

4 the 20th.

5 A. The date as a temporal indicator of events is something that I

6 could have mentioned, but according to what I remember it's the 20th.

7 However, please don't hold me strictly to the dates, because then I take

8 upon myself the risk of being mistaken about the date. So I do accept the

9 possibility. If it is established specifically that it was the 18th, I

10 accept that as a possibility.

11 Q. Thank you very much, sir, for your answers.

12 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I have no further

13 questions for this witness. Thank you.

14 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you, Mr. Vasic.

15 Mr. Borovic.

16 Cross-examination by Mr. Borovic:

17 Q. [Interpretation] Good afternoon, my name is Borivoje Borovic. I

18 am an attorney from Belgrade, and I am defending Miroslav Radic.

19 In response to the Prosecutor's question you mentioned the

20 Territorial Defence in Vukovar. In that context, you mentioned the

21 1st Assault Detachment. You didn't tell us if you know who commanded the

22 1st Assault Detachment.

23 A. I wasn't asked, and now that you ask me, I can say that the

24 commander of the 1st Assault Detachment was Major Tesic. Right now I

25 cannot remember his first name.

Page 10115

1 Q. Thank you. When you were at Ovcara and irrespective of the date,

2 do you know who the commander was of the Ovcara location?

3 A. No.

4 Q. Thank you. Did you find out later, because reading the statement

5 you gave to the OTP I see that you conducted some investigations about

6 these events. So did you find out who was the local commander of Ovcara

7 at that time?

8 A. I didn't find out that particular thing, and I wasn't really

9 interested in who the commander was. What I did find out and what I do

10 know is that --

11 Q. I'm just asking you whether you knew who the commander was.

12 A. No.

13 Q. Thank you. In your statement you said that you know Stanko in

14 response to a question by the Prosecutor. My question is: Is this Stanko

15 Vujanovic?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Thank you. You also said that to the left of you, along the axis

18 of attack, that's where he was; is that correct?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. When you say "to the left of you," in the course of operations

21 during combat operations, do you know which company was also on that axis

22 of attack to the left of you? Specifically was it Captain Bojkovski's

23 company?

24 A. I had two neighbours in two periods of time that I was there. In

25 the first period it was the right flank of the 1st Assault Detachment, and

Page 10116

1 it's possible that that was Captain Bojkovski's company, but in any case

2 it was a company of the 1st Assault Detachment. In the second phase of

3 my stay there, there was a company of the battalion of the military police

4 from Avala.

5 Q. Thank you. Does that mean that Stanko operated along the axis of

6 operation of the company of Captain Bojkovski, or actually what is Captain

7 Bojkovic today?

8 Q. And that is -- that pertains to that time when you said that he

9 was to the left of you.

10 Excuse me, there is a mistake in the transcript. On page 45, line

11 18, the Witness said battalion and here it says battery. No, no, it's

12 correct now. It's correct now. It does say battalion. Thank you very

13 much. Go ahead, please.

14 A. Stanko was to the left of my position with his group and behind

15 me. He was on my left flank and behind me. His specific combat action on

16 that section of the front is something that I cannot speak about, because

17 I didn't know that personally.

18 Q. Specifically to the left of you was the company of Captain

19 Bojkovski; is that correct?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Thank you.

22 MR. BOROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, could we please now

23 have Exhibit 171 on the monitors? It's just a short video film footage

24 and I would like to ask the witness to look at it.

25 Q. Can you see it on your screen?

Page 10117

1 A. No, not yet.

2 [Videotape played]

3 MR. BOROVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

4 Q. Did you see what it says at the beginning of this little film? If

5 not, maybe we can play it again.

6 A. Yes, I can see it.

7 Q. Would you kindly tell the Trial Chamber what it says?

8 A. "100 Days of Vukovar."

9 Q. Thank you. Do you know who this is?

10 [Videotape played]

11 A. The person that I saw is Captain Bojkovski. It's the person with

12 the walkie-talkie in his hand.

13 Q. Could you please tell the Trial Chamber exactly what this person

14 is saying?

15 [Videotape played].

16 A. Yes, I can. "Taxi, Vukovar must fall tonight. Let us move on."

17 Q. Thank you. Do you know that Stanko Vujanovic was

18 nicknamed "Taxi."

19 A. No. All I know is that he was a taxi driver before the war.

20 Q. Thank you very much. We won't need this exhibit anymore. I just

21 wanted the Trial Chamber to have confirmation who this exactly is, because

22 before it was just my word.

23 Do you know the axis of operation of the 2nd Assault Detachment

24 and who commanded the 2nd Assault Detachment?

25 A. Major Adem Bajic was the commander of the 2nd Assault Detachment.

Page 10118

1 And the 2nd Assault Detachment advanced along the axis through Sajmiste,

2 which is where I was. I was actually on the left flank of the 2nd Assault

3 Detachment between those two detachments. And its right flank was also

4 carrying out operations in the direction of the settlement called Mitnica.

5 Q. Thank you. Can we agree that this was also the direction of the

6 barracks towards the water-tower? Can we agree on that?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. And does that mean that there were two different directions of the

9 1st Assault Detachment and the 2nd Assault Detachment, they did not

10 operate on the same axis? Is that correct?

11 A. It seems logical.

12 Q. Thank you. In your statement to the Prosecution on page 5,

13 line 4, and if necessary you will look at it, you said that the Vukovar

14 front in October 1991, was visited by General Adzic. Is that correct?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. You also said that he toured the positions of the 2nd Assault

17 Detachment; is that correct?

18 A. Yes, I did say that.

19 Q. Thank you. And was the barracks at that time the place where the

20 command was of the 2nd Assault Detachment?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Thank you. When General Adzic came were you there, yourself?

23 A. I personally did not see him.

24 Q. However?

25 A. However, I saw his escort, members of the same detachment that was

Page 10119

1 taken out of my or our composition and attached to the General Staff.

2 Q. Thank you. Does that mean that General Adzic had his own security

3 and that when he was visiting any unit, especially at the front, this unit

4 had to guard him? Is that correct?

5 A. Yes. In principle that is correct.

6 Q. Thank you. That day he was in Vukovar, like you said, at

7 positions of the 2nd Assault Detachment. Do you know how long he stayed

8 there?

9 A. No.

10 Q. Thank you. Do you know where he went after leaving the positions

11 of the 2nd Assault Detachment?

12 A. No, I don't know that either.

13 Q. Thank you.

14 A. I'm sorry, I apologise, I cannot see the transcript, so I don't

15 know if I'm going too fast or not. This is just an observation, I

16 apologise.

17 MR. BOROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, page 48, line 19, the

18 answer was not registered, "exclusively his security." I just wanted to

19 mention that for the transcript. Thank you very much.

20 Q. My next question, sir. On the 19th of November, were you in

21 Vukovar? This is in 1991.

22 A. I can say with a great degree of certainty, yes, I was.

23 Q. Thank you. Do you remember where you were that day?

24 A. I cannot specifically say where I was. I know that that day or

25 the day before or the day after, I was busy with a crew of Sky News. I

Page 10120

1 was facilitating their work as journalists, amongst other things.

2 Q. Thank you. I would like to be completely specific. From the 18th

3 until the 20th, did you go to the Vukovar Hospital at all?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Were you in the hospital?

6 A. No, I did not enter the hospital building itself.

7 Q. Thank you. Could you please tell us who was guarding the hospital

8 from the outside when you went there, if you saw that? Which units were

9 involved?

10 A. It could have only have been the 1st Assault Detachment or units

11 that were a part of it.

12 Q. Thank you. Have you heard of Captain Simic?

13 A. I cannot remember Captain Simic right this minute.

14 Q. If I were to tell you that he was a commander of the military

15 police company, would that help you at all?

16 A. From which battalion? There were two battalions.

17 Q. Did you hear of the military police company at all, and did you

18 know that military police company was guarding facilities and buildings

19 and performing activities in compliance with the law?

20 A. I don't understand, which military police company? Which military

21 police company are you talking about?

22 Q. When you were in front of the hospital, did you see any military

23 police at all?

24 A. I cannot answer your question with any degree of certainty,

25 positively, I mean.

Page 10121

1 Q. Did you see soldiers with white cross belts guarding the hospital?

2 A. Yes, there were some people like that. There were many

3 journalists, soldiers, a convoy was getting ready with buses, but I cannot

4 be more specific, unfortunately, about this.

5 Q. Thank you. If I were to tell you that Captain Simic with his

6 company of the military police was actually guarding the hospital, would

7 you agree with that, that he was in charge of that, if I were to tell you

8 that?

9 MR. MOORE: [Previous translation continues] ... how can the

10 witness answer that if he cannot remember who Captain Simic is. The

11 answer at 53:6 is, "I cannot remember Captain Simic right at this minute."

12 JUDGE PARKER: Carry on, Mr. Borovic.

13 MR. BOROVIC: [Interpretation] I told the witness, if I were to

14 tell you that Captain Simic and his military police company were guarding

15 the hospital, does that mean that you allow for that possibility, since

16 you don't know who the soldiers with the white cross belts, which units

17 actually they belonged to.

18 A. I cannot answer something that is being put forward as a

19 possibility. Of course there is that possibility. The building was at

20 that point in time secured by a certain company of the military police,

21 but I cannot tell you whether -- that that was really so.

22 Q. Thank you very much. So you don't know the unit that was securing

23 the hospital, which military police company it belonged to?

24 A. Yes, that's correct.

25 Q. Thank you. Did you speak to General Vasiljevic after the war in

Page 10122

1 Vukovar?

2 A. About Vukovar or in Vukovar? What was your question exactly?

3 Q. About Vukovar.

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Where and when?

6 A. I can't remember specifically the time; however, I know that it

7 was at the time where -- when General Vasiljevic had left the prison. I

8 went to visit him at his house several times. I wanted to express my

9 support. And naturally I wanted to see him. Therefore, it is possible

10 that it was during those visits that we discussed Vukovar.

11 Q. Thank you. Was anybody else present when the two of you met?

12 A. Mostly, no. Except or one occasion when a former security officer

13 was present. I would rather not mention the name.

14 Q. Thank you. You don't have to mention the name. Did General

15 Vasiljevic ever introduce you to a journalist? A civilian journalist?

16 A. Actually, yes. It wasn't a typical introduction, more of an

17 informal type.

18 Q. So you sat in the presence of which person?

19 A. Occasionally I would meet with a journalist whose name is Milos

20 Vasic.

21 Q. Is that the journalist employed by the Vreme magazine?

22 A. Yes, he was at the time.

23 Q. Why did you meet with him, if it's not a secret? Why did you meet

24 with a journalist of Vreme, and several times too?

25 A. It's no secret at all. At the time I had a different orientation,

Page 10123

1 and I met with some people whom I didn't know in my previous life. We

2 mostly discussed the events surrounding the break-up of our former

3 country. We also discussed the war and also since at the time we were

4 already following Radio Free Europe, we could hear certain pieces of

5 information which one couldn't hear on the strictly censored television

6 programme.

7 Q. My question was: Was that the journalist that General Vasiljevic

8 introduced you to?

9 A. Yes, and I've replied that question.

10 Q. Did he introduce you to another journalist of Vreme, another

11 person employed by Vreme at the time?

12 A. I used to meet other journalists as well, independently of General

13 Vasiljevic. I also met a journalist whose name was Filip Svarm, who also

14 worked for Vreme. We met in a bar on one occasion, and that was a lady

15 journalist, the correspondent of Financial Times. That's what I can

16 remember right now.

17 Q. Thank you. Did you ever meet the journalist Jovan Dulovic?

18 A. I can't remember the name, but it is possible that we met.

19 Because in those meetings usually several people would be present, and I

20 would talk to several people.

21 Q. Was it during your visits or meetings with General Vasiljevic?

22 A. I can't confirm that.

23 Q. Is it possible that it was then?

24 A. I can't say, I can't give you a definitive answer, and I would

25 rather not guess.

Page 10124

1 Q. Thank you. Have you ever heard of Captain Radic?

2 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreters didn't hear what the witness

3 answered.

4 [Defence counsel confer]

5 MR. BOROVIC: [Interpretation]

6 Q. The interpreters didn't hear your answer. Did you say yes?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. So you are confirming that?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Did he have a reputation of a brave and honest officer who

11 complied with the discipline rules of the JNA?

12 A. Among other things, yes. Because those who were members of the

13 guards brigade were selected for that unit precisely based on those

14 criteria.

15 Q. All right. Thank you. Since you were there at the front, did you

16 hear there some information about him being a proper, decent officer? Was

17 he a brave man, an honest man who abided by all the discipline rules, or

18 did you perhaps hear something bad about him?

19 A. During the combat it was said that precisely what you just

20 mentioned was true. Also, in relation to Major Sljivancanin, that members

21 of his unit fought bravely and that he was very good in carrying out the

22 tasks.

23 Q. Thank you, sir. I have concluded your cross-examination.

24 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you, Mr. Borovic.

25 It's clearly time now for the second break. We will resume at 10

Page 10125

1 minutes past 4.00.

2 Mr. Bulatovic.

3 MR. BULATOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, with your

4 permission. Your Honours, the Defence of Major Sljivancanin has a favour

5 to ask.

6 We heard from our learned friend, Mr. Moore, today that the

7 addendum provided by this witness doesn't have any important elements, and

8 that it's not so important. We, however, believe that it's very important

9 for Mr. Sljivancanin, because this is something that this witness stated

10 for the first time on the 19th of May, and it's contained in this

11 addendum. All of these allegations are very important for Major

12 Sljivancanin. The people mentioned by this witness, as you were able to

13 hear in today's testimony of this witness, all of this reflects on the

14 relations between these people and Mr. Sljivancanin.

15 As this witness is planned to testify tomorrow as well, we would

16 like to ask you to allow us to consult Mr. Sljivancanin during the break

17 and today so that we can start cross-examining this witness first thing in

18 the morning. We believe that our cross-examination would take an hour to

19 an hour and 15 minutes.

20 JUDGE PARKER: Is there any submission, Mr. Moore?

21 MR. MOORE: The addendum does not deal with Sljivancanin. It does

22 deal with people who are linked to him. In our submission, it's a matter

23 for the Court.

24 JUDGE PARKER: And it can be accommodated in your timetable for

25 the week?

Page 10126

1 MR. MOORE: Yes, I wouldn't see any difficulty on that.

2 [Trial Chamber confers]

3 JUDGE PARKER: You must be owed a favour, Mr. Bulatovic. Yes, we

4 will adjourn now, and we will resume tomorrow at -- if I could remind you,

5 it must be at 12.30 tomorrow. We must sit tomorrow from 12.30 until 5.00,

6 as we were planning to do today. Thursday and Friday it will be from 9.00

7 until 1.45.

8 So we will adjourn now for the day.

9 MR. BULATOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours. We will

10 try to pay you back.

11 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 3.45 p.m.,

12 to be reconvened on Wednesday, the 7th day of June,

13 2006, at 12.30 p.m.