1 Wednesday, 8 November 2006
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 [The witness entered court]
5 --- Upon commencing at 9.05 a.m.
6 JUDGE PARKER: Good morning. The affirmation you made at the
7 beginning of your evidence still applies.
8 WITNESS: RADOJE PAUNOVIC [Resumed]
9 [Witness answered through interpreter]
10 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Weiner. A quick sprint to the end, I believe.
11 MR. WEINER: It will be.
12 Cross-examination by Mr. Weiner: [Continued]
13 Q. Good morning, sir.
14 A. Good morning.
15 Q. I'd like to finish with the cross-examination this morning with
16 about 45 minutes to go, sir; and just discuss with the evacuation and take
17 you through hospital and the evacuation, okay?
18 A. Yes, all right.
19 Q. Now, you are testified that you arrived at Vukovar Hospital on
20 November 19th; isn't that correct?
21 A. Yes, that's correct.
22 Q. And you arrived there in the afternoon?
23 A. Yes, in the afternoon.
24 Q. And you didn't stay there the whole evening or on a 24-hour basis,
25 that you left sometime after midnight; midnight, 1.00 in the morning?
1 A. Yes. After midnight, I went to the command post, my command post.
2 Q. And while at the hospital on the 19th, you weren't given any
3 orders to make a list of the persons in the hospital; correct?
4 A. No. I wasn't given any such task.
5 Q. And at no time did you attempt to identify the persons inside of
6 the hospital.
7 A. No, I did not.
8 Q. And you really can't say for certain who those persons were that
9 were in the hospital; you can't give us a list of names or identify all of
10 those people there?
11 A. I can't.
12 Q. Now, you returned to the hospital on November 20th, correct, the
13 following day?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. When did you return to the hospital?
16 A. After this lapse of time, I can't remember what time it was, but
17 it was in the morning.
18 Q. Now, sir, you testified in Belgrade concerning the time that you
19 arrived; do you recall that testimony?
20 A. I don't recall.
21 Q. When you testified a year and a half ago in Belgrade, was the
22 information fresher in your mind?
23 A. Well, the information might have been fresher. But as I said
24 yesterday, in the course of making all these statements and when certain
25 documents were put to me or events, later on, I would link up one event
1 with another. So that most probably, times and perhaps even dates do not
2 always correspond in all the statements I made.
3 Q. But since there were no documents relating to the evacuation on
4 November 20th, which you're discussing, would you agree with me that your
5 memory was fresher a year and a half ago when you testified in Belgrade?
6 A. Theoretically, certainly, but I explained to you just now why my
7 statements differ. If, when I made my first statement, certain facts had
8 been put to me, my statement would certainly have been different. It
9 doesn't mean that I gave a wrong statement, but my statement in that case
10 would have been more correct.
11 MR. WEINER: May the witness be shown the Belgrade transcripts
12 which is 0461-9343 to 0461-9395, page 11, which is 0461-9349, to the
13 bottom of the page. Thank you. Page 11 in the English, and it should be
14 around the mid to the bottom of the page in B/C/S.
15 Q. Now, do you see where it says,"Presiding judge: The following
16 day -- in the morning, in the afternoon"?
17 A. In which part?
18 Q. Should be middle to the bottom, "Presiding judge: The following
20 A. Yes. Yes, I can see it.
21 Q. If you could follow along with me I will read a portion of it
22 "Presiding judge: The following day, in the morning -- in the
24 "Witness Radoje Paunovic: I cannot say exactly because I
25 not there the whole time -- a while earlier, I said that as an officer, I
1 wasn't there the whole time."
2 "Presiding judge: Was Simic, as company commander, there?"
3 "Witness Radoje Paunovic: Simic was there because the next day
4 when I reinforced security -- as to the time when I got there, perhaps I
5 got there around 1200 hours, at noon. I can't remember exactly."
6 If you want to continue, you then say, .
7 "The evacuation was carried out in the afternoon and this, well,
8 let's call it a selection, even if I didn't know who got there or go
9 there, and who would come here and since the buses were parked behind the
10 hospital, my unit was not assigned to do the screening or whatever."
11 Does that refresh your memory, sir? Did you get there around
13 A. It says in my statement that I arrived around noon. But I'm
14 telling you again, that not even when my -- I made my first statement or
15 the second or the third or now, can I remember precisely what time it was.
16 But I did attend the evacuation. I was there. When I referred to the
17 afternoon and what I told you about yesterday, the taking out of the
18 civilians and everything else, and I wasn't there all the time. If I said
19 here at 12.00, I can't recall exactly what time it was. But I repeat, I
20 was there during the evacuation.
21 Q. Well, let's look at it to try and determine when you were there.
22 Were you there when the security organs arrived at the hospital?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Were you there when they entered the hospital?
25 A. Some were already in, some were outside. I can't remember every
2 Q. Could you -- could we turn to page 58 in the English, which is
3 0461-9372 of that same transcript. The top third of the page.
4 Now, the question -- if we go to the top third of the page, start
5 off with attorney Zaklan [phoen], "You let them inside and you were
6 securing the hospital." Do you see that?
7 A. Can it be scrolled down a little bit. It's all right.
8 Q. "You let them inside and you were securing the hospital. You let
9 them inside. How did you let them enter?" Then the presiding judge
10 asked: "Was anyone in charge of the work of these men?" Then the
11 attorney asks: "Was anyone in charge of the work of these security
12 organs?" And the presiding judge asks you: "Do you know anything?" And
13 you said: "I said I don't."
14 How did you allow them inside? The presiding Judge said, "You
15 just saw them when they were screening the people, so who told them to let
16 them inside?" Answer: "Well certainly, I cannot remember the details and
17 I wish to reiterate that I wasn't there non-stop, the whole 24 hours, so
18 the commander or his deputy was there."
19 "Q. Who was there and did you see who was there? Who was in
20 command? I'm asking you whether you did or didn't, so please tell me
21 whether you did or didn't?"
22 "A. I didn't."
23 Did you see these people enter? You indicated you don't know who
24 let them inside.
25 A. What people do you mean?
1 Q. These security people. You said you don't know who let them
2 inside. Were you there when they arrived, and did you see them enter?
3 A. In this statement in Belgrade, I said I didn't know who let them
4 in. But what I'm telling you now is, there was no need for someone to let
5 the chief of the security organ in. He had the right to go in.
6 Secondly, when I say I was not inside, I was not in the hospital
7 when the triage and screening and selection were being carried out. I was
8 outside at that point.
9 If I understand your question to be: Who let them in? No one had
10 to let them in; they had the right to go in. They were not uninvited or
11 uncalled for. And there is no doubt that they worked in the hospital; I
12 mean, that they were doing their task in the hospital.
13 Q. Well, when asked by the court as to who let them inside, you
14 didn't say that. You said, "I can't remember the details." You never
15 said: They just walked in on their own. Isn't that correct?
16 A. Well, I am not claiming even now that I remember the details. I'm
17 just explaining that there's no need for anyone to let them inside, and
18 that's what I said in this statement.
19 Q. All right. Let's try another factor. Were you present when Major
20 Sljivancanin met with the hospital staff in the plaster room in the
21 morning of November 20th?
22 A. I wasn't there.
23 Q. Sir, there were several different groups evacuated on that
24 morning, and one of the groups were wounded persons. Were you present
25 when the wounded persons were evacuated?
1 A. I can't remember when the wounded were evacuated, but they were
2 not evacuated together with the healthy and the sick. They were separated
3 off and transported in some kind of medical vehicles.
4 Q. But were you -- you weren't present for that; isn't that correct?
5 A. I was there at the beginning of this assignment, but then I left.
6 I can't recall now why I had to leave, what other task I was performing.
7 Q. So you were not present for the evacuation of the wounded; isn't
8 that correct?
9 A. I said I was there at the beginning, but I did not stay until the
11 Q. Well, you testified in Belgrade, at page 48, that you were not
12 present. So do you wish to change your testimony and say that you were
13 present for the beginning and not the end or for the full time?
14 A. Yes, precisely so. I wasn't there until the end.
15 Q. Now, you testified that a evacuation operation is a complex
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. And you also testified yesterday that due to the importance of
19 this operation, an officer was placed on each bus.
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. And your military police unit had several important functions
22 during this evacuation, ranging from securing the hospital, securing the
23 evacuee -- searching the evacuees, escorting the buses, providing
24 security; isn't that correct?
25 A. Correct.
1 Q. And you also had responsibilities in this evacuation for providing
2 security to the buses, assigning persons, overseeing your soldiers or men.
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. And as commander, you're responsible for your men; you have to
5 watch them and give them assignments and make sure they act properly.
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Now, as part of this evacuation, however, you never received any
8 written order relating to this operation.
9 A. No, I did not.
10 Q. And to this day, you've never seen any written order; you claim
11 you've never seen any written order.
12 A. As far as I can recall, yesterday and the day before yesterday, I
13 said I did not exclude the possibility of such an order existing. But I
14 did not see it.
15 Q. And you're claiming you don't know who was even in charge of the
17 A. I don't know.
18 Q. And you've never seen a security assessment relating to the
19 evacuation operation, any written security assessment.
20 A. No, I did not.
21 Q. And you did not know what officers would be on the buses with your
22 military policemen.
23 A. No.
24 Q. Nor did you know, according to your testimony, where your men were
25 to escort the civilians were the hospital; where they would be going.
1 A. No. It was probably the officers on the buses who knew that.
2 Q. And finally, sir, you don't even know what time you arrived,
3 according to your testimony, at the hospital on that date.
4 A. I know when I arrived, but after this lapse of time, I certainly
5 cannot remember exactly what time it was, but -- by the clock. But I am
6 telling you that I was there during the evacuation.
7 Q. Sir, I put to you that your claims or your testimony that you
8 really didn't know what was happening during this evacuation are not true.
9 That the importance of the evacuation and the important role you had, you
10 would have had to have known who was in charge, who was responsible, and
11 you would have had to have seen an order.
12 A. Whether I knew or not, I carried out the task without any
13 problems, and you can conclude whatever you like.
14 MR. WEINER: No further questions, Your Honour.
15 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you, Mr. Weiner.
16 Mr. Bulatovic.
17 Re-examination by Mr. Bulatovic:
18 Q. [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
19 Good morning to everyone in the courtroom. Good morning, Mr.
21 A. Good morning.
22 Q. After the cross-examination by the OTP, I will try to put some
23 questions to you in order to clarify some issues. I think that you spoke
24 a lot, and there are many of your evidences so let's go through them. Let
25 us start from the final bit put to you by the Prosecution; namely, that
1 you were not present at the evacuation when it was carried out, invoking
2 your statement given before the Belgrade district court special war crimes
3 department where you said that you came at around 12.00.
4 You said yourself that you were not sure about time and that you
5 even made mistakes about dates, which is quite understandable, given the
6 passage of time. And then some documents were put to you to refresh your
7 memory. So let me ask you this: Did you attend, were you present during
8 the search of the persons who were taken out of the hospital on the 20th
9 of November, 1991?
10 A. I mentioned this several times and I will repeat once again:
11 Yes. I was present when these people were searched and taken out.
12 Q. Mr. Paunovic, did you see that the persons searched entered the
14 A. Yes, I did.
15 Q. You mentioned Major Vukasinovic by the buses. Did you approach
16 the buses?
17 A. I think I said that yesterday or the day before, that I didn't
18 approach the buses, but they were not far from me. I could see them.
19 Q. How long did the search take? I asked you that already, but would
20 you please answer again.
21 A. The search, and this portion of the evacuation, took about two
22 hours, give or take a minute. I'm not sure, given the passage of time.
23 Q. All right. Thank you. There were some questions about the
24 statement you gave to the OTP, where they inquired whether this was
25 logical or that was logical. I will ask you about the 80th Brigade. Do
1 you know that the military police company and that brigade secured the
2 members of the so-called Mitnica group at Ovcara in the night between the
3 18th and 19th of November, 1991?
4 MR. WEINER: I object, Your Honour.
5 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Bulatovic, I think, like you, I hadn't expected
6 that that fact was of concern, but it appears to be of concern to Mr.
7 Weiner so you were leading on it. I think you'd better be careful about
9 MR. BULATOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I didn't realise that
10 there were problems concerning this. But I'll take this on board and I
11 will rephrase my question.
12 Q. Mr. Paunovic, do you know, did you hear that at the command post
13 or in any other place, it was discussed that there were problems
14 concerning the guarding of the Mitnica battalion in the night between the
15 18th and 19th of November?
16 A. I never heard that there were any problems.
17 Q. In your statement, when answering -- and also when answering
18 questions put to you by the OTP, you said that in your view, it was
19 logical for the securing to be done by the Guards Battalion, which had two
20 military police units, that it be done by then rather than by one military
21 police company. Let me ask you this: Do you know when the 80th Brigade
22 was deployed to the Ovcara sector?
23 A. The 80th Brigade replaced a previous brigade at around the 18th of
25 Q. Do you know whether the 80th Brigade took part in combat?
1 A. As far as I know, it didn't.
2 Q. Did you know where the military police company of the 80th Brigade
3 was engaged in combat?
4 A. I don't think that it was, just like the brigade wasn't.
5 Q. Do you know whether the military police company was trained to
6 carry out military police tasks?
7 A. I think it is. All of them were reservists who had completed
8 their military service in the military police units.
9 Q. Very well. Let me ask you this: Is it logical then that the
10 securing tasks be done by a unit, which is well-rested, which has full
11 complement, which has not participated in combat operation, or do you
12 think it's more logical for that task to be performed by a unit which saw
14 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Bulatovic, there is a further objection and
15 it's well-founded. You are trying to argue your case through the witness.
16 If you want him to tell you what he considered was most logical, you just
17 ask him that and let him tell you.
18 You're putting arguments as to why one was more logical than the
19 other. If you could watch that. Thank you.
20 MR. BULATOVIC: [Interpretation] You're quite right, Your Honour,
21 but that's precisely the type of questions that were put to Mr. Paunovic
22 when the statement was taken from him. But all right, I will rephrase me
24 Q. Knowing all this, Mr. Paunovic --
25 MR. WEINER: I move to strike that, Your Honour.
1 JUDGE PARKER: We don't strike, Mr. Weiner, as you might in your
2 jurisprudence but no notice will be taken of it.
3 There is absolutely no factual foundation for that assertion, Mr.
4 Bulatovic. Not in the evidence here.
5 MR. BULATOVIC: [Interpretation]
6 Q. Mr. Paunovic, in your view, who should be performing the security
7 tasks related to persons? Should it be a unit whose area of
8 responsibility it is, or should it be another unit outside of the area
9 where the facility where the people are secured is located?
10 A. Naturally, it should be done by a unit whose area of
11 responsibility it is. It shouldn't be done by an outside unit.
12 Q. And can you repeat once again whose area of responsibility the
13 sector of Ovcara was?
14 A. It was the area of responsibility of the 80th Motorised Brigade.
15 Q. In answers given to the OTP, you said that when the evacuation was
16 conducted at the Vukovar Hospital, you also saw some doctors. In your
17 statement given to the OTP, you mentioned that, and I'd like to know how
18 long did you talk with the representatives of the OTP during those two
19 days, how many hours?
20 A. You mean in Belgrade, in the OTP office in Belgrade?
21 Q. Well, I guess that's where you met, unless you met some place
23 A. I talked for two days. Our interview would begin at 9.00 in the
24 morning at conclude at 1900 hours. Naturally we had breaks, lunch breaks.
25 I don't know if I was clear enough.
1 Q. So two days. On that occasion, did you speak to them about the
2 presence of doctors at the Vukovar Hospital?
3 A. I can't remember all of the details but perhaps there were some
4 questions of that sort.
5 Q. Let me ask you this: Did you enter the Vukovar Hospital during
6 this evacuation that we are referring to now on the 20th, from the moment
7 when you came to the hospital until this task described you; namely, the
8 searching and taking of persons to the buses, was concluded?
9 A. As for me entering the hospital, I entered only the first part of
10 the hospital which is a corridor. And then from this corridor, if you go
11 straight or to the right, you can enter several offices, doctors' offices
12 or something like that. And further on the areas where the wounded were
13 and the patients, those were the areas where I didn't enter.
14 Q. The briefings you had on the 19th, the ones you described, and
15 then you briefing on the 18th or any earlier one, was it ever mentioned
16 that the persons who would be evacuated would be taken to Ovcara? Was
17 Ovcara ever mentioned as a location?
18 A. Nobody ever mentioned it.
19 Q. Mr. Paunovic, there were many questions concerning who was in
20 charge in your view, in charge of evacuation. Do you know which rank was
21 held by Mr. Sljivancanin during the Vukovar operation?
22 A. The rank of Major.
23 Q. Do you know which rank Mr. Pavkovic had during the Vukovar
25 A. Colonel.
1 Q. Is Mr. Pavkovic an officer from a superior command?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Under the circumstances, where there are officers of different
4 ranks, senior ones, junior ones, what would be your conclusion? Who could
5 be in charge of that operation, of that mission?
6 A. Well, I would conclude that the officer with the senior rank from
7 the superior command was in charge.
8 Q. The taking away of Marin Vidic was discussed here on the 19th in
9 the evening. You explained how you saw him, where you saw him, that you
10 were reported -- or rather, you received information from the command.
11 You said that it was even possible that you saw Sljivancanin before you
12 went to the briefing in Negoslavci, or, rather, that he asked you to do
14 MR. BULATOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, can we put Exhibit
15 107 on the screen, page 11, please.
16 This is the rules of service, Article 23. The previous page,
17 please, page 11. Or rather, I apologise, 19. In English, it's page 11.
18 Exhibit 107.
19 Q. Mr. Paunovic, these are the rules of service of security organs
20 the armed forces of the Socialist Federalist Republic of Yugoslavia.
21 Would you please read paragraph 3 of Article 23 which starts with the
22 words: "The deployment of units," do you see that bit?
23 A. Yes, I do. "The deployment of units or individual members of the
24 military police to perform tasks within the security organ's competence is
25 determined by the security organ officer under paragraph 1 of this item
1 with the approval of his superior military officer."
2 Q. All right. Mr. Paunovic, given your evidence that you were
3 informed by the command that you needed to bring Marin Vidic, if such a
4 request was put to you by Veselin Sljivancanin, in your view, would that
5 be a legal request, given this rule on the cooperation between security
6 organs and the military police?
7 A. Yes. That would be consistent with this article, paragraph 3,
8 about the competence.
9 [Defence counsel confer]
10 MR. BULATOVIC: [Interpretation] I apologise, Your Honours, I need
11 just a few more seconds. I think I'm very close to being finished.
12 Q. Yesterday, you were told and you confirmed that within the 1st
13 Battalion of the military police, there was an anti-terrorist company?
14 A. Yes. On the strength it had an anti-terrorist company, yes.
15 Q. Do you know, Mr. Paunovic, whether other units in the armed forces
16 of the SFRY also had anti-terrorist companies or units?
17 A. The other units had some type of anti-terrorist units but not of
18 this composition.
19 Q. All right. You answered a question put to you by the OTP saying
20 that the organ -- security organ --
21 THE INTERPRETER: Could the counsel please repeat the question?
22 A. When I hear the term "advises" or "gives advice" in our
23 vocabulary, we would say "proposes" or "gives specialist guidance" and so
24 on. So that's the type of assistance he provides to the commander. We
25 use that kind of vocabulary.
1 Q. Yes, Mr. Paunovic, you're quite right. That is precisely the
3 Let me ask you this: Once the proposal is given for the military
4 police units to be used, tell us, or rather, is that proposal given before
5 the units are deployed or used?
6 A. Well, naturally, proposal is given before the units are deployed,
7 and it is up to the commander whether he's going to accept such a proposal
8 or not, proposal given by the chief.
9 Q. Once the military police unit is deployed or used, would you agree
10 with me that there is no longer any point to give any proposals of how to
11 use a unit because the unit has already been used?
12 MR. WEINER: I object, Your Honour. Once again, it's leading.
13 There are other ways to ask it, Your Honour.
14 JUDGE PARKER: Yes, Mr. Weiner. Thank you.
15 Carry on.
16 MR. BULATOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, that's quite all right. Mr.
17 Weiner is fully right. I was just trying to clear any ambiguities.
18 Q. Mr. Paunovic, let me ask you this: The 2nd Battalion of the
19 military police, when it was deployed to secure the hospital, did it mean
20 that it was used?
21 A. Yes, it was used.
22 Q. The decision -- or, rather, who issued you the order to carry out
23 that task?
24 A. Brigade commander.
25 MR. BULATOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours, I have no
1 further questions.
2 JUDGE PARKER: You will be pleased to know that that's the end of
3 the evidence that you are asked to give here. The Chamber would like to
4 thank you for your assistance and for coming here in this matter. So you
5 are now free to leave and return to your other interests.
6 You will be shown out of the courtroom.
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
8 [The witness withdrew]
9 JUDGE PARKER: While we wait for the next witness, Mr. Borovic,
10 there's a matter concerning you. It has just been realised that the annex
11 to your motion for the admission of documents was not filed under seal.
12 It contains matters that enable the identification of three protected
13 witnesses, which is a matter of considerable concern. The immediate need
14 is for notice to be filed today with the Registry requesting that the
15 annex be placed under seal.
16 That is the effect of how it is being held at the moment under
17 order of the Chamber, but we need an indication that it's under seal. And
18 it is, I repeat, of considerable concern that the annex was filed openly
19 concerning one or two witnesses, including one that you had sought to have
20 the protective measures lifted.
21 It's also interesting that the Prosecution response was filed
22 under seal but made no mention of the absence of your own schedule as
23 being not under seal.
24 Now, this is a lapse that must not occur in future filings. Thank
1 MS. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, let me just inform
2 you on behalf of the Defence that it will be rectified in the course of
3 the day. I apologise for this problem.
4 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you, Ms. Tapuskovic.
5 [Trial Chamber confers]
6 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour.
7 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Lukic.
8 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Before the witness comes in, I have
9 two issues to raise. One is that I would like to inform the Trial Chamber
10 that we are not going to call one witness on our list, but I would prefer
11 to give the reasons in private session.
12 JUDGE PARKER: Private.
13 [Private session]
8 [Open session]
9 [The witness entered court]
10 THE REGISTRAR: We are back in public session, Your Honours.
11 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I have another issue, Your Honours. I
12 can inform you that as the witness is brought in. It has to do with a
13 request, since I cannot affect the length of cross-examination. And in
14 Mr. Sljivancanin case, he was cross-examined a bit longer than the
15 examination-in-chief; and the same applies to Mr. Paunovic. When we made
16 our assessment, we were using one-third to two-thirds ratio and therefore,
17 I would like to urge all parties to have that proportion in mind. So it
18 isn't only our team that is mindful of the time, but also everybody else.
19 I realise that everybody has questions to put, but I would still
20 like to urge the parties to stick to the schedule provided so that we can
21 be sure that we will stay within the limits.
22 That's all I had to say. Thank you.
23 JUDGE PARKER: It's not surprising, Mr. Lukic, that an accused
24 might be cross-examined longer than an ordinary witness, not at all
25 surprising, but my memory is that your examination of Mr. -- of the last
1 witness, Mr. Paunovic, was longer than the cross-examination. I'm just
2 checking my notes. It was the whole of the first day and Mr. Borovic
3 didn't start until 10.00 on the second day. It was Mr. Domazet as well.
4 So I think cross-examination may not have been the problem in
5 either case. Very well.
6 Good morning, sir. Sorry we were discussing another matter when
7 you came in. Would you please read aloud the affirmation on the card in
8 front of you.
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will
10 speak the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth.
11 WITNESS: MIODRAG PANIC
12 [Witness answered through interpreter]
13 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you. Please sit down.
14 Mr. Lukic.
15 Examination by Mr. Lukic:
16 Q. [Interpretation] Would you please tell us your first and last
18 A. Miodrag Panic.
19 Q. Mr. Panic, good morning.
20 A. Good morning.
21 Q. We have already talked about the rhythm of question and answer we
22 should maintain. So please bear in mind that you should pause between
23 question and answer, and I will do the same although I have often been
24 reminded to do so.
25 I will now go through your career and CV very quickly. So please
1 interrupt me if something I say is not correct. Your family situation is
2 such that unfortunately, you have recently been widowed and you have two
3 children. I would like to thank you for agreeing to come and testify in
4 spite of your difficult family situation. And I do so on behalf of Mr.
5 Sljivancanin's team, and I hope on the behalf of all the participants in
6 these proceedings.
7 Mr. Panic, you are a retired General; is that correct?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. And you graduated from military academy. After that in the period
10 from 1972 to 1984, you served in a garrison in inland Serbia, where you
11 progressed from company commander to battalion commander and higher up; is
12 that correct?
13 A. Yes. I was in the Pozarevac garrison, and I progressed from
14 platoon commander to company commander and further on, up to battalion
16 Q. From 1984 to 1985, you went to the staff command school for
17 tactical operations; is that correct?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. And then you joined the Guards Brigade in Belgrade with the rank
20 of Major, and your first post there was as an officer in the operations
21 and training department; is that correct?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. In 1989, you were appointed Chief of Staff of the Guards Brigade?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. At that time, you had the rank of Colonel--
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. -- or rather junior Colonel, and then you were promoted to Colonel?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. In mid-1992, you were appointed commander of the Guards Brigade?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. And after the JNA was transformed into the army of Yugoslavia,
7 from 1993 to 1996, you were corps commander of the special units of the
8 army of Yugoslavia?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. From 1996 to 1999, you were assistant chief of the general staff
11 of the army of Yugoslavia for the ground forces; and at the same time, you
12 were the chief of the ground forces sector of the army of Yugoslavia?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Then, you graduated from the highest school of the Yugoslav army,
15 the School of National Defence; and in 1995, you were promoted to rank of
16 Major General?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. 1999, you became the chief of the administration for housing. And
19 from 2000 to 2002, chief of the inspection of combat readiness of the army
20 of Yugoslavia; is that correct?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. And finally, due to the needs of the service, you retired in 1992
23 [As interpreted] with the rank of Lieutenant Colonel General?
24 A. In 2002.
25 Q. And I would also like to go quickly through the facts with regard
1 to the Vukovar events about which you gave more than one statements. The
2 sides in the proceedings know this, but for the sake of the Court, the
3 first statement you made about the Vukovar events was made on the 20th of
4 December, 1998 before the military court in Belgrade?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Then you made the brief statement to the security organs within
7 the brigade, and that was an additional part of the proceedings before the
8 military court on the 9th of November, 2001.
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. You were also interviewed or, rather, heard as a witness first by
11 the investigating judge in Novi Sad in the proceedings that we commonly
12 refer to as the Belgrade-Ovcara on the 28th of November, 2003?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. And you testified in these proceedings on the 26th of November,
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. And then, the OTP in The Hague interviewed you; and on the 25th to
18 the 26th of July, 2005, last year, they interviewed you in their Belgrade
19 office where you spoke to them for two days?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Thank you. We will leave these statements later on to the -- for
22 the participants to look at.
23 When did you first contact the team of Veselin Sljivancanin, his
24 Defence team?
25 A. In July of this year.
1 Q. Who did you contact?
2 A. Well, I contacted you, and the reason was for me to tell you what
3 I remember, describe the events in Vukovar, and testify. And I agreed to
4 do so.
5 Q. When did we have the most detailed conversations about all these
7 A. Well, we spoke most working together here.
8 Q. Thank you. When considering your CV, we already said when you
9 joined the Guards Brigade. But I would only like to know, as I would like
10 to pass on as quickly as possible to the matter in hand, the persons who
11 are sitting behind me, were they in the Guards Brigade, or do you know
12 where they were when you arrived?
13 A. When I arrived in the Guards Brigade, all three were in the Guards
14 Brigade. I'm not sure about Radic, whether he arrived after I did, but I
15 have known Radic for quite a long time. As for Mr. Mrksic and Mr.
16 Sljivancanin, they were in the Guards Brigade.
17 Q. Very well. Mr. Panic, I think that you are competent to testify
18 about various matters, but, first of all, about the organisation and
19 structure of the Guards Brigade. Can you tell us briefly what the main
20 task of the Guards Brigade was, and how it differed from other motorised
21 brigades of the then JNA?
22 A. Well very briefly, the Guards Brigade, as in all countries in the
23 world, was an elite unit of the state and of the army. The Guards Brigade
24 of the then Yugoslav national army was unique. It had its own special
25 organisation and establishment, and specific tasks which differed from the
1 everyday tasks of other brigades.
2 The main task of the Guards Brigade was to secure high-ranking
3 persons, VIPs, and special facilities. Furthermore, it conducted training
4 and had duties related to the protocol. In line with this, the units were
5 organised and the establishment set up. I can tell you what the brigade
6 had in its composition that other brigades did not have. It had two
7 motorised battalions. It had two battalions of the military police, and
8 let me mention straight away that the military police battalions are
9 something that no other brigade had. Other brigades had military police
11 Furthermore, there was a battalion for securing facilities and
12 persons. This is also something that does not exist in other brigades.
13 Also, the brigade had other units just like other brigades. There's no
14 need to go into detail, but it did not have its own artillery, as other
15 brigades do.
16 If you need further details, I can go into that, too.
17 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Let us now look at a document. This
18 is a new document, Your Honours. It has been provided to all the
19 participants in the proceedings. We received it only in September through
20 the National Council. It is the Establishment Book of the Guards Brigade
21 from 1991. It's 3D050286. And the English version is 3D050299. Could we
22 please briefly look at the first page. I apologise, what I have just said
23 is the B/C/S version, 3D050299. The English version is 0328. We have
24 hard copies for the Chamber and for the other side.
25 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note. They do not have these
2 MR. LUKIC: [In English] Could we please have this on the screen to
3 give it to the Judges and the Prosecutor.
4 [Interpretation] And a copy for the witness.
5 Q. This is the first page of this document. Was this the template
6 that was in force in the autumn of 1991?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Could we now look at page 3, the diagram of the Guards Motorised
9 Brigade, and could you explain what the difference was between the Guards
10 Brigade and the other brigades in the then JNA?
11 A. This diagram resembles that of other Guards Brigades, but there
12 are certain differences. As I said, only two motorised battalions. Other
13 brigades had more, four to five motorised battalions. Then we have an
14 armoured battalion, a military police, or rather two military police
15 battalions. In other brigades, there was only a military police company.
16 Then we have a battalion for providing security. This does not
17 exist in other brigades. As I said, this brigade was unique.
18 Q. Slow down a little, please.
19 MR. WEINER: Your Honour, a point of clarification. Is this
20 correct? The diagram we have only has one motorised battalion and one
21 military police battalion. Is there something that's missing? Is there
22 another page that...
23 JUDGE PARKER: It's pointed out to me, Mr. Weiner and Mr. Lukic,
24 that underneath Motorised Battalion A and Military Police Battalion A,
25 there is, on the next line on the right-hand side in each square, a number
1 one. And that is not found on any other battalions.
2 It may be the answer but clearly Mr. Lukic will explore it.
3 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
4 Q. Mr. Panic, it's possible that the diagram in English does not
5 correspond to the B/C/S we have on the screen. You have heard what the
6 Prosecutor said. Does this diagram show there were two battalions of the
7 military police and two motorised battalions?
8 A. Yes. It can clearly be seen here, and I know in fact that there
9 were two motorised battalions and two military police battalions.
10 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I see that Mr. Weiner has now seen
11 this on the screen. You can see this in the B/C/S version. It's possible
12 that in the English version, the square is not represented in the same
14 Q. Mr. Panic, can you continue?
15 A. Well, I left off speaking about the security battalion. It had up
16 to 700 men, and its task was to provide security for buildings and
17 military personnel. I wish to mention straight away that this battalion
18 did not participate in the tasks of the Guards Brigade that we will be
19 talking about.
20 The next unit is the light artillery -- artillery battalion, and
21 then there was the engineer's company, the communications company, and
22 atomic, biological, and chemical company. That was something that was
23 specific or peculiar to this brigade.
24 Then there is the organ for moral guidance. It also had an
25 orchestra, and this was also something that was unique to the Guards
1 Brigade. Furthermore, in the command, there was an organ for special
2 technology and communications. And there was also a platoon for special
3 technology and communications, and it had to maintain communications
4 between the top state leadership and the whole world.
5 The security organ, as in other brigades, although it was stronger
6 here, it also had a military police squad for special purposes. This does
7 not exist in other units. These are persons who escort and provide
8 security for high-ranking army and state officials.
9 Then there was the organ for the rear, the organ for planning and
10 the financial affairs, and rear battalion as in other brigades.
11 Q. This special-purpose squad which we see is directly linked to the
12 security organ, do you know whether this squad participated in the Vukovar
14 A. No, it did not. They were carrying out their usual tasks, because
15 the state leadership was active at the time.
16 Q. To avoid leading, were they securing Mr. Kadijevic, Mr. Adzic, and
17 people such as they?
18 A. Yes. Yes, both the state and army top leadership.
19 Q. Well, who made up the command of the Guards Brigade?
20 A. The command of the Guards Brigade comprised the staff. Organ for
21 moral guidance, organ for special technology and communications, security
22 organ, a logistics organ or rear organ, and organ for planning and
23 material and financial transactions.
24 Naturally, they have their own organs and their communication
25 links in the rear.
1 Q. What about battalion commanders? Who were they subordinated to
2 from whom they received their orders and to whom they reported?
3 A. Battalion commanders were directly subordinated to the brigade
4 commander, and you can see this in this organigramme.
5 Q. I will put another question to you about this document. At the
6 brigade staff, was there something else that was peculiar? Were there any
7 other persons who were not part of some other staffs within the Guards
8 Motorised Brigade?
9 A. We already said that both the command and the unit were of a
10 unique composition, given the role and the task of the Guards Brigade. I
11 was the Chief of Staff. Within the staff, there existed all other organs
12 as in other brigades. But there was a unique feature here where we had an
13 officer within the operations and training organ who was in charge of
14 proposing, and he was simply in charge of the combat readiness. And he
15 gave proposals for training; he had an overview of the combat readiness
16 and level of training of the military police. So to put it briefly, there
17 was an officer for military police battalions.
18 Q. Which normally does not exist within other staffs; there are no
19 representatives of military police within other staffs; correct?
20 A. Yes, correct. I was Chief of Staff, and I can give you exactly,
21 precisely the names of the organs, which were part of the staff, including
22 this particular officer.
23 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I move that this document be admitted
24 into evidence. There are some other issues that can be covered, but I
25 think we'll leave that for experts. In the meantime, could we have this
1 document admitted into evidence.
2 JUDGE PARKER: Noting that there are some amendments necessary to
3 the English language version of the chart. Are you tendering the whole of
4 the document or just that? It will be received.
5 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit 851, Your Honours.
6 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation].
7 Q. Mr. Panic, before the break, perhaps we can cover another topic.
8 What was the task -- or rather, what mission was the Guards Brigade given
9 when it was sent to Vukovar? When did it go to Vukovar, the Guards
10 Brigade? It was in late September, wasn't it?
11 A. The Guards Brigade was deployed on a mission on the 30th of
12 September, 1991. Its mission was to deblock the barracks in Vukovar where
13 soldiers and officers alike had been under siege for a long time. It was
14 probably mentioned here that they did not have food, water, medical
15 assistance. They couldn't even bury their dead, because they were
16 constantly under siege, under blockade, and subject to cross-fire of
18 Very often, mortar shells and other kinds of ammunition were used
19 to target the barracks.
20 Q. Do you remember when the barracks was deblocked, and what was the
21 other reason of the deployment of the brigade to the area?
22 A. Prior to us, another unit attempted to accomplish this mission.
23 It was a unit from Sremska Mitrovica. On the 2nd of October, we passed
24 through their combat disposition; and on the 2nd of October, the barracks
25 was liberated. We were united with our soldiers and officers in the
2 Q. You said that the barracks was deblocked on that date. You
3 contacted your unit - and I'm just correcting the transcript - on page 32
4 line 3, you said that the barracks was deblocked; there is a mistake in
5 the transcript. Why did the brigade remain in Vukovar? We know very well
6 that it remained there until the 24th of November.
7 A. I could give you a long story about the deployment of the brigade
8 and the time it spent in the area, but more or less, it is all well-known.
9 Simply, the conclusion was that after the siege of the barracks was
10 lifted, we found ourselves under a semi-siege. We were semi-encircled.
11 Before coming to this area, we expected that our mission would be
12 easy. That, simply speaking, owing to minor preparations, basically on
13 the move, we would be able to resolve the problems which were the reason
14 we had been sent to Vukovar in the first place.
15 On the 2nd of October, we were stopped by very strong resistance
16 of the paramilitary formations; and when we found ourselves
17 semi-encircled, we halted our offensive. We had losses among our troops
18 and also in weaponry, and it was necessary for us to regroup our forces
19 and to prepare for a different type of combat.
20 In addition, we issued a call to paramilitary formations to put
21 down their weapons and to thus bring our mission to the end. They did not
22 accept that, the combat continued in the following days, but a different
23 tactics was applied in the offensive.
24 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Can we now turn to another topic.
25 Your Honours, I think this would be a good time for our first
1 break today.
2 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you, Mr. Lukic. We will have the first break
3 and resume at ten minutes to 11.00.
4 --- Recess taken at 10.30 a.m.
5 --- Upon commencing at 10.55 a.m.
6 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Lukic.
7 MR. LUKIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
8 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Panic, we have, as an agreed fact, that the
9 Guards Brigade became incorporated into the Operations Group South. My
10 question is: Was there a change within the command and in the role of the
11 commander of the Operations Group South, what happened, and who became the
12 commander, and who comprised the command?
13 A. The Guards Brigade was deployed on its mission pursuant to the
14 order of the Federal Secretary for National Defence, and the brigade was
15 resubordinated to the 1st Military District. Within that, it became part
16 of the Operations Group South. The Operations Group South had already
17 been in the area where we came, and the Guards Brigade just became part of
18 it. This situation continued until the 8th of October - I think, but you
19 can verify in the documents - at which time, Colonel Mile Mrksic,
20 commander of the Guards Brigade became commander of OG South.
21 Q. Was there the command of the Operations Group South; and if so,
22 who did it consist of?
23 A. The rules and regulations provide that the command of the
24 Operations Group South had a powerful composition. Based on the
25 principles, it should be command of the corps or division. However, in
1 our situation, the command of OG South consisted of the command of the
2 Guards Brigade.
3 Typically, there were two colonels from the superior command there
4 who, pursuant to the order of the chief of cabinet of the Federal
5 Secretary for National Defence, were sent one of the command of the
6 brigade and the other one to the artillery organ of the brigade. These
7 two colonels were Colonel Nebojsa Pavkovic, and Zlatoje Terzic, whose
8 specialty was artillery. These are the only reinforcements in our
9 command, including the command of OG South.
10 Q. We will discuss the meetings later on and who attended the
11 meetings of the OG South. Do you remember whether there was a written
12 document? Do you remember seeing a written document, pursuant to which
13 the Guards Brigade became command of OG South? We saw an entry in the war
14 diary about the commander. But do you remember whether there was a
15 written order, and who was it supposed to be issued by if there was one?
16 A. There was an order, and it was only pursuant to that order that we
17 could have taken over this role. And it was allegedly an order issued by
18 the command of the 1st Military District.
19 Q. Very well. I'm going to ask you something about the daily
20 meetings at the command. When were they held? Maybe I was leading when I
21 said "daily." But at what time, and who took activity participation in
22 the meetings, in drafting decisions, and making them?
23 A. The meetings were held almost daily. There were some exceptions
24 when, due to combat or some activities that had been commenced, a daily
25 briefing would not be held. However, on those occasions, tasks would be
1 issued on the move. That is to say, during the execution of
2 previously-issued tasks, meetings would normally be held towards the
3 evening, beginning typically at 1800 hours. Commander of the brigade
4 would typically chair the meeting, Colonel Mrksic. The meeting was
5 attended by subordinate commanders, his assistants and myself, as chief of
7 Q. What do you mean by this, subordinate commanders? Can you
8 remember who were these people? Can you give us their positions and their
9 names, and we are mostly interested in the final period, the second half
10 of November?
11 A. Subordinate commanders were battalion commanders and commanders of
12 Assault Detachments. Commander of the 1st Battalion, and at one point in
13 time, commander of the Assault Detachment, Borivoje Tesic; commander of
14 the 2nd was Adem Bajic and later Branislav Lukic.
15 Q. Could you please go slower with the names for the sake of the
17 A. Commander of the 1st Battalion of military police was initially
18 Kavalic Branislav. Later on, this role was taken over by Jovan Susic.
19 Commander of the 2nd Battalion of military police was Blagoje Paunovic.
20 Commander of armoured battalion was Tomic. Commanders of brigades, first
21 of all the 20th Brigade, was Misovic Slobodan, and then the 80th Motorised
22 Brigade, Vojnovic. Commander of the local TO was Jaksic.
23 During one period of time, there was also Milo Miladinovic.
24 Q. What was his role?
25 A. He had a special unit, special detachment which comprised of
1 volunteer units in the central part of Vukovar. He was either a Major or
2 Lieutenant Colonel.
3 Q. Of the JNA?
4 A. Yes, the JNA. The rest were assistants of the commander and the
5 Chief of Staff.
6 Q. The assistants you described, when looking at the organigramme?
7 A. Yes. I apologise. If it is relevant, I omitted one detachment,
8 the 3rd Assault Detachment. It was commanded by Milorad Stupar.
9 Q. But I don't want to be leading but his unit was not from the
10 Guards Brigade?
11 A. No. There were many units there that were not in the main
12 establishment of the Guards Brigade, the original establishment. They
13 were there simply for the purpose of performing a certain task.
14 Q. So all the commanders in our Operative Group South were present at
15 the meetings of commanders?
16 A. Yes, put quite simply, that is correct.
17 Q. How did a meeting proceed? What would a regular meeting look
19 A. A meeting would begin with the commander opening the meeting. He
20 would provide an overview of the situation for the past day. He would
21 hear the brief reports given by his subordinate commanders. He would hear
22 reports and suggestions of his assistants, and issue orders containing the
23 tasks for the following day. Sometimes these would even be long-term
24 tasks for a longer period of time.
25 Q. With respect to daily activities and these meetings -- well, first
1 of all, were minutes made at these regular meetings?
2 A. Yes. The most important information was entered into the war
3 diary. Initially, there was also an operations diary that was kept. But,
4 as I mentioned, the brigade command also took on the role of commanding
5 Operations Group South, where some of the officers in the command, and
6 primarily from the staff, had to be engaged in carrying out daily tasks in
7 the units.
8 After a while, no operations diary were kept, but, rather, the
9 most important information was entered into the war diary and some in the
10 registry book. Thus, the gap was filled that was created because no
11 operative log was kept, orders issued and received and information coming
12 to the staff.
13 Q. Tell me, please, in the course of your time in Vukovar, from whom
14 did you receive orders, to whom did you send reports? I'm referring to
15 the Operations Group South.
16 A. The Operations Group South received its tasks either in written or
17 in oral form from the command of the 1st Military District. It also sent
18 reports to the 1st Military District. Of course, there were some reports
19 that were not sent to the 1st Military District, but to the office of the
20 Secretary for National Defence. These were the reports sent by the
21 security organ, first and foremost.
22 Q. Thank you. One more question concerning these meetings. The
23 local TO commander Dusan Jaksic was present. We heard in testimony before
24 this Tribunal that at one point, he was replaced and that Miroljub Vujovic
25 was appointed in his place. My first question is: Have you heard of this
1 person, and did he attend any of the meetings of the commands of the
2 Operations Group South?
3 A. Jaksic, as the commander of the local Territorial Defence, did
4 attend these meetings. And at one point before the end of the fighting in
5 Vukovar, Miroljub Vujovic was appointed to Jaksic's position. He did not
6 attend the meetings. The reason was that the units were regrouped, and he
7 was put under the command of Major Tesic in the left wing.
8 Q. Thank you.
9 A. Into the 1st Assault Detachment.
10 Q. You gave us some details about the keeping of the war diary, so we
11 will look at two entries now. But before that, let me ask you the
12 following: Were the borders of the area of responsibility of Operations
13 Group South delineated, and were areas of responsibility within it
15 A. Yes. An order was issued and explained orally on the ground. The
16 right-hand border was the River Danube, the left-hand border was the Vuka
17 River, the axis of attack, the area of Negoslavci and the barracks in
19 Q. Within the operations group itself --
20 A. Well, within the Operations Group South, areas of responsibility
21 were divided up. This is always done, even when maneuvers are carried
22 out. Each Assault Detachment and each battalion had its own borders and
23 could carry out its tasks within those borders.
24 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Thank you. Could we now briefly look
25 at the entry in the war diary, Exhibit 401, English version page 19,
1 B/C/S version page 20. This is the entry of the 9th of October, 0800
3 Q. Mr. Panic, you will see it on the screen, and I will read it out.
4 After that, I will ask you to comment on it. The entry for the 9th of
5 October at 0800 hours reads as follows:
6 "The commander of the 1st Military District arrived in the command
7 of Operations Group South and gave the task for the Operations Group South
8 to maintain the belt from the River Vuka to the Danube. He established
9 the precise zone of area of responsibility and gave information about the
10 other units of the 1st Military District. He had information about the
11 situation," and there follows an illegible word, "in the areas."
12 He set out the information?
13 A. Yes. He set out the information.
14 Q. Do you remember, first of all, who arrived where you were, and do
15 you remember these facts entered here?
16 A. Well, the fact that the commander of the 1st Military District
17 visited our command more than once, and this is one of his visits. His
18 other visits, if you look at the war diary, are also entered into the war
19 diary. And there is always a brief description of the occasion of his
21 Q. As this entry is dated the 9th of October, did the commander of
22 the 1st District, when he defined the area of responsibility, during the
23 combat operations, did he change this area from the River Vuka to the
24 River Danube?
25 A. No. The left-hand border was kept until the end, except when,
1 after the liberation of Vukovar, the order was issued that Operations
2 Group South should also liberate the hospital and carry out the procedures
3 we will be probably talking about later.
4 Q. Well, can you tell us when the Operations Group was given the task
5 of crossing the River Vuka?
6 A. On the 19th of November.
7 Q. Thank you. Let's look at just one more entry from this document.
8 But before that, I will put another question to you because it's on a
9 different topic.
10 Mr. Panic, during the combat operations, did you go to the front
11 lines to tour the troops?
12 A. Yes. I did, very often, in all units. I spent more time with the
13 units on the right wing where there were more problems. As regards
14 carrying out the designated task, I spent less time in the left wing where
15 discipline was better and there was more success.
16 Q. Who was on the left wing, and who was on the right?
17 A. When I say the left wing, I'm referring to the 1st Assault
18 Detachment. When I say the right wing, this includes the units in
19 direction of the barracks and around the barracks, the units at Mitnica,
20 and the units at Vucedol, all the way up to the Danube River.
21 Q. And when you say that you often went into the field, so to say,
22 can you tell us what you mean by "often", once a fortnight or every day?
23 A. Well, it was almost every day. The reason for this was, first of
24 all, to precisely define the tasks on the ground. This is best done in
25 personal contact with the soldiers and their officers, their commanders.
1 I'm not trying to glorify my own role. This was done by all commanders,
2 but I am now talking about what I did. So I visited the men and their
3 commanders on the front line.
4 There was also the issue of morale in certain units because, in
5 one period of time, morale did not meet our requirements, primarily in
6 some units that had been mobilised and some volunteer units. And of
7 course on my return, I would know firsthand what their problems were, what
8 their needs were, and also I would be aware of how true their evening
9 reports were.
10 Q. At these briefings or while you were in the command or in the
11 field, did you learn whether Major Sljivancanin was also frequently
12 visiting the front lines, and did you know if he did visit the front
13 lines, why he did so?
14 A. Major Sljivancanin also visited the units daily. Major
15 Sljivancanin, in addition to the task of surveying the situation in the
16 field, had other security problems which he resolved on the spot; a huge
17 area of responsibility, many problems arising, especially when we started
18 liberating the town quarter by quarter, and when people started emerging.
19 And one had to see from the security point of view, whether these were
20 fighters or just civilians and what should be done with them.
21 Q. Thank you. Let us now look at the entry in this same exhibit
22 dated the 4th of October, at 10.40, this is page 6 both in the B/C/S and
23 the English version.
24 I will read it. It's the time entered is 10.40.
25 "1: Huge concentration of Ustasha in the Dunav Hotel; 2: In the
1 worker's congress hall, 3: In the municipality, 4: In Olajnice at the
2 bus station, 5: A sniper captured, Vlatko Bajen?
3 A. Can provide information.
4 Q. In the notes, it says, "information received from Colonel
5 Pavkovic." My question is: Do you remember that Colonel Pavkovic also
6 frequently toured the units, and that he also personally provided such
7 information at meetings of the command?
8 A. Yes. Colonel Pavkovic was extremely useful to us at the command
9 post. He frequently visited the units. And towards the end of the combat
10 operations, he had intensive talks with international organisations and
11 representatives of the Red Cross. He did a lot to deal with persons
12 appearing in the town of Vukovar after its liberation; that is, organising
13 transport and participating in their screening and the separation of the
14 combatants from the non-combatants.
15 Q. The seat of the security organ - I will use my client's term - of
16 the Guards Brigade, was it in the same building of the command of
17 Operations Group South?
18 A. No. I can tell you what organs were in the same building as
19 Operations Group South, but he was in house number nine, as far as I can
21 Q. In Negoslavci?
22 A. Yes, in Negoslavci.
23 Q. Mr. Panic, in view of your position and your tasks, did you know
24 anything about the way information was passed between the security organ,
25 specifically Sljivancanin and whoever else? Who did he report to, and who
1 communicated with him; both within the Operations Group and outside it?
2 A. Well, Major Sljivancanin was the chief of the security organ and
3 also the assistant commander for security. In his work, he had a team of
4 men in carrying out his work, that is. These were also men from the
5 security organ. There is a list of their names - I don't want to dwell
6 on it now - and together with them, he gained insights into the security
7 situation in the area of responsibility.
8 What was important to the commander was something that he briefed
9 the commander on. He was also duty-bound to report up his chain of
10 command in the security organ in his specialty. So he had to report, at
11 that time, it was Djukic who was in charge of the security organ.
12 Q. Thank you. General Blagoje Adzic came. Were you present when the
13 chief of the General Staff visited?
14 A. I saw him only briefly. I was not part of the delegation who met
15 him and who escorted him. He wanted to tour some units and he did.
16 Q. Do you know whether, during your stay in Vukovar, Vojislav Seselj
17 came there? Did you personally see him? Do you know anything about his
18 visits, if any?
19 A. Vojislav Seselj came once, to my knowledge. And I know that he
20 visited the units within the 1st Assault Detachment, that is to say,
21 specifically, the unit called Leva Supoderica whose commander was called
22 Kameni Lancuzanin. I was not present -- I wasn't in his company; and as
23 far as I know, he didn't stay long in our area of responsibility.
24 Q. All right. If you had no direct contact with him --
25 A. No, I didn't. And I could only tell you about what I heard.
1 Q. Did the artillery of OG South fire outside of its area of
2 responsibility during combat operations? Was it active outside of its
3 area of responsibility?
4 A. The artillery, in its mission, receives very detailed information
5 about the area where they are to fire; and, based on that, they plan their
6 fire. They were not supposed to fire at targets outside of their area or,
7 rather, outside of the approved plan. If something of that sort happened,
8 a commission was established instantly to investigate the reasons.
9 Q. During combat operations, did you receive information that the
10 artillery of OG South fired upon the hospital at Vukovar?
11 A. Our artillery, that of OG South, never fired on the hospital and
12 the sector around the hospital; and I can emphasise here that this was
13 particularly highlighted during regular briefings. Nobody could fire at
14 such targets.
15 If I can support this with a fact: Starting on the 2nd of
16 October, there were already our soldiers in the hospital, that is to say,
17 we had an officer and several soldiers there. Jovic was a sergeant, and
18 then there was several soldiers. Jovic left the hospital on the 19th. He
19 was wounded but he survived; and throughout that time, he was at the
20 hospital. That was one more reason for commanders to abstain from firing
21 at any targets across from the Vuka River.
22 Q. Just a couple of more technical questions, because I believe that
23 you are competent to answer them. If there is an evacuation of the
24 wounded or an evacuation of the prisoners, or conduct of prisoners,
25 operations of that sort need to involve what kind of persons in order for
1 such a mission to be carried out properly?
2 A. This is a very serious and responsible task, and relevant command
3 organs need to be involved in such a task, including specialty organs
4 which carry out the task. First of all, this involves security tasks,
5 then it involves tasks from the area of medical corps and logistics.
6 These tasks must be planned individually and specified.
7 Q. If a task is outside of the regular scope of competence of an
8 officer, how can such a task be issued?
9 A. It can be issued both verbally and in writing. If the task has or
10 carries material or any other sort of responsibility, then it needs to be
11 in writing, in order to protect such an officer, if such a task goes
12 beyond his area of competence.
13 Q. When we briefed you for your evidence, you said that you were not
14 familiar in detail with the rules on the work of security organs. In your
15 view, can a security organ be issued tasks that fall outside of its
16 competence as prescribed by the rules of service?
17 A. Commander can issue an order to any subordinate officer. An
18 officer is duty-bound to carry it out, except if such a task entails
19 criminal responsibility. It is not typical that a security organ is
20 issued with a task that normally falls within the scope of competence of
21 another organ, specialty organ.
22 Q. Was there a detailed or written order on evacuation specifying who
23 is to do what? I'm referring to the evacuation carried out on the 20th of
25 A. The tasks were assigned verbally in relation to that evacuation.
1 I do not remember that -- or at least we cannot find a single written
2 document where such tasks were given in detail, specifying role position,
3 type of task, and so on. It was all done verbally, except that we
4 received a written order from the command of the 1st Military District.
5 That was the basis on which we proceeded in order to carry out this task.
6 Q. Mr. Panic, did you personally take part in negotiations and
7 surrender of the Mitnica group, which was actually Mitnica detachment?
8 A. I know exactly when that group surrendered. That was a unit
9 numbering 170 people. That was on the 18th of November. But I wasn't
10 present in the area on that day, nor did I have any kind of a task related
11 to that unit or its surrender. If necessary, I can tell you where I was.
12 Q. Please tell us.
13 A. On that day, I was in the sector of the water tower. We hoisted
14 Yugoslav flag on the water tower, because the main combat in Vukovar
15 ceased on that day.
16 Q. Do you know, or perhaps did you watch any footage, or did you hear
17 about the Mitnica surrender, and as to whether weapons were surrendered as
18 well on that occasion?
19 A. Yes. We know that -- we know, on the basis of the contact with
20 people who took part in implementing that task, and it is generally
21 well-known that these people asked for surrender. This was widely known.
22 We called for surrender from day one. The people from Mitnica, who put up
23 fierce resistance, asked for surrender. The surrender was accepted.
24 We designated people who were to carry out that task on our side.
25 Their officer was told to line up his unit. He was told that they needed
1 to discard weapons. Security organs carried out the tasks within their
2 competence, together with the military police. They confiscated weapons,
3 they searched these people, and they took them to the holding centre.
4 Everything was done in accordance with the regulations, and I
5 heard that these people, later on, were exchanged pursuant to the
6 principle overall.
7 Q. On the following day, in those days, did you visit the area of
8 Vucedol and Mitnica; and then, a follow-up question or, rather, just tell
9 us were you there?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Do you remember whether anything was found when they conducted the
12 sweeping of the terrain?
13 A. Even though Vukovar was liberated on the 18th, on the 19th, we
14 continued with the sweeping of the terrain uncovering groups of people who
15 had not yet surrendered. Taking care of the people of Vukovar, we were
16 surprised at the number of inhabitants. We also found a lot of remaining
17 ammunition, weapons, shells, and so on. Because they demined the area
18 through which they passed through, but everything else remained as it was
19 while they were still defending the town.
20 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Could we now see Exhibit 368, please.
21 This is the report of the command of OG South on the 21st of November.
22 I'm interested in just one sentence in the upper portion, if we could zoom
23 in, please. This is something that you signed. Later on, you will
24 probably be examined on this. No this is fine.
25 The last sentence reads: "In the sector of Mitnica settlement, a
1 large number of weapons, ammunition, and mines and explosives were found."
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Do you remember that that's exactly how it was, and that it was
4 three days after the Mitnica group surrendered and was searched?
5 A. Yes, I remember. It wasn't only there. It's just that there was
6 a lot of it there, more than anywhere else. And this is something that
7 the army had. And it found its way to the opposite side and then there
8 were also some improvised mines, booby-traps, and so on. And they
9 inflicted severe damage later on.
10 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Could we now please see Exhibit 418.
11 This is a report by the command of OG South dated 19th of November, 1800
12 hours. We can see that this was sent both to the 1st Military District
13 and to the cabinet of the Federal Secretary for National Defence.
14 Q. This report -- all right. Yeah, this is good. I'm reading item
15 3: "A group of women, children, and the elderly which, yesterday, in the
16 afternoon, was sent in 16 buses via Sid to Zupanja was sent back by the
17 Ustasha authorities. At this point in time, preparations are being
18 conducted to receive and provide accommodation for this group. They
19 should be sent tomorrow morning via the village of Nustar."
20 Tell us, please, when did this problem start arising, the problem
21 with large groups of civilians?
22 A. This is just one such report or one such situation. We had
23 similar situations a number of times. For example, we had to send back a
24 convoy of buses, because in locations that were designated as hand-over
25 locations, the Croatian authorities opened fire. Those were border
1 locations. They refused to take in the people who decided to go to that
3 The first such larger group, and depending on the part of town
4 that we liberated, there would either be a group of people or if this was
5 a large part of town, then the group would be large. But the first large
6 group that we had problems with was on the 18th of November.
7 In the axis of surrender of their military formation, the one that
8 surrendered at Mitnica, they headed in that direction. And the people who
9 were surrendered were put into hangar at Ovcara. And people, civilians,
10 as you can see in the report, were sent elsewhere but were turned back.
11 I remember that they were sent back and then they spent the night
12 on the buses.
13 Q. It was the night of the 19th?
14 A. The night of the 19th. We had no other accommodation for them and
15 they agreed to remain on buses. We gave them tea, a can of some food, a
16 slice of bread. And they stayed there until the following day, and they
17 were sent to another location. But this time, they took them in.
18 Q. Another entry from this document I would like us to look at is a
19 little below this. According to the statements of two soldiers and the
20 sergeant who were in the Vukovar Hospital, there are many members of the
21 HDZ and of the Ustasha forces in the hospital who are hiding and
22 disguising themselves in various ways.
23 Could we now turn the page, please, because this ties in with the
24 previous entries. So page 2, the lower part, paragraph 4, a little lower,
25 please, scroll down a bit.
1 "In the course of today, three members of our unit were pulled out
2 of the hospital who were treated from the 2nd of October, 1991, and whom
3 we considered to be missing. These are Sasa Jovic, Sergeant Sasa
4 Jovic" -- oh, it is, "and soldier Srdjan -- Private Srdjan Miljkovic and
5 volunteer Pavle Stefanovic. They also gave certain information about
6 members of the Ustasha units hiding and disguising themselves in the
8 Does this jog your memory, do you remember this?
9 A. Yes, I remember it very well. Sergeant Jovic and these two men
10 were taken prisoner on the 2nd of October. When we first moved towards
11 the barracks, they went on further than the barracks, fell into an ambush,
12 the sergeant was wounded, all three were taken prisoner. But until this
13 day here, we knew nothing about them. We knew nothing about them until
14 the point in time when Dr. Vesna Bosanac, talking to Commander Mrksic,
15 mentioned that they were alive and that they were in hospital.
16 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Can we scroll up now on the same page
17 so we don't have to go back to the document, although the topic is
18 different. A little -- scroll up a bit more, please. Yes. Yes.
19 Q. This is still the document of the 19th of November. Under 3, it
21 "The village of Ovcara, the village of Jakubovac, the village of
22 Grabovo, Lieutenant Colonel Slobodan Misovic and when he left the area of
23 responsibility of Operations Group South, Lieutenant Colonel Milorad
24 Vojnovic was appointed."
25 The village of Ovcara on the 20th of November, according to this
1 document, and perhaps documents we will view subsequently, whose area of
2 responsibility was it in, to the best of your knowledge?
3 A. Ovcara is not really a village in the proper sense of the word.
4 It's a farm with several farm buildings; an administrative building,
5 several auxiliary buildings, farm buildings, and several hangars.
6 Ovcara, until the 18th of November, was in the area of
7 responsibility of Colonel Misovic or the 20th Partisan Brigade. When they
8 left the area of responsibility of Operations Group South, this task was
9 given to the 80th Motorised Brigade, commanded by Vojnovic, Milorad
11 Q. Mr. Panic, in your -- to your knowledge, who decided that the
12 hangars at Ovcara should be the place where the Mitnica group would be
13 placed, and do you know why this decision was taken that those who
14 surrendered at Mitnica should be accommodated there?
15 A. Commander Mile Mrksic ordered that the surrender of this group of
16 paramilitaries from Mitnica should be dealt with. He issued orders as to
17 what people would participate in that, and he designated the hangars at
19 The reason, I assume - and I would agree with such a decision -
20 was that the hangar was the closest facility to the Mitnica group. It was
21 the largest intact building which could hold a group of this size.
22 Q. You can reply briefly to the following question: Were you present
23 when Cyrus Vance arrived in Vukovar, and did you attend the meeting with
24 him in Negoslav City? Did you see him at all during his visit?
25 A. No. I was not present, so I could not talk about it in any
2 Q. Did you personally have any meetings with members of the European
3 Monitoring Mission or members of the Red Cross?
4 A. No.
5 Q. So you only have secondhand knowledge about this?
6 A. Yes, and from the media.
7 Q. Very well. Then let us move on to the next topic, because these
8 topics will be dealt with by witnesses who were actually there.
9 Mr. Panic, at some point, did you arrive at the Vukovar Hospital?
10 When was this, and what did you find there? Can you simply describe what
11 you remember about this?
12 A. Yes. I arrived at Vukovar Hospital, and I was at the entrance to
13 the hospital. That was on the day when I set out from the water tower
14 towards the hospital and came across a vehicle containing Sergeant Jovic
15 and the two fighters we have just been talking about. This was on the
16 19th of November. Although at one time, I, myself, was mistaken. I
17 mistakenly believed it was on the 18th of November, in fact it was the
19 Q. Who did you see there in front of the hospital?
20 A. Yes. I was in front of the hospital, and there I found Dr. Vesna
21 Bosanac, Major Sljivancanin, Major Tesic, and a few other JNA personnel.
22 But right now, I cannot be sure of their names.
23 There was already a group -- there was also a group of doctors and
24 hospital personnel in white coats, and there was also a person there who I
25 think was a representative of the International Red Cross. I don't know
1 who he was, but he had insignia on him.
2 I can describe some details if it's important, and if we have
4 Q. I believe it is important, so please tell me what you remember,
5 what you told me? But before that, can you tell us what time of day it
7 A. It was in the latter part of the day, in the afternoon.
8 Q. Day or night?
9 A. It was daylight. It was in the afternoon, daylight.
10 Q. And what sticks in your memory? How long did you stay there, and
11 what details do you remember?
12 A. Well, I stayed there briefly, ten to 15 minutes. I remember a
13 detail I will never forget. There were a number of corpses across the
14 road from the hospital. They had simply been thrown there and left lying
15 on the ground. I also remember that Dr. Vesna Bosanac had a telephone
16 conversation at that point. A person in a white coat called to her while
17 she was talking to Major Sljivancanin and the group of officers at the
18 entrance to the hospital.
19 This person called out to her and said she had a phone call from
20 General Tus. And briefly, the conversation looked like this: I don't
21 know what he said to her. I know what her comment was. She said: "You
22 promised us help. It didn't arrive by land. You promised it would come
23 down the Danube, it didn't arrive. You promised help from the air, it
24 didn't arrive. They are next to me now, and we will do what we have to do
1 Q. During this brief period you were there, you say Sljivancanin was
2 there, Vesna Bosanac, the man from the Red Cross. Did they talk in a
3 normal tone of voice? Were they arguing? Was there a conflict?
4 A. Well, the conversation was in keeping with the situation of the
5 persons who were there. It was civilised, normal, calm. I had the
6 impression that somebody's orders were awaited, somebody's decision.
7 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Let us view briefly a video clip.
8 We'll just have to wait a little bit.
9 [Videotape played]
10 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
11 Q. Mr. Panic, do you recognise anyone in this clip, in this frame?
12 We looked at it during the proofing.
13 A. I recognise Sergeant Jovic and the volunteer who was with him. He
14 was not a soldier of ours; he was a volunteer. I don't see the private.
15 I also recognized sergeant, Senior Sergeant Devic. I met them later on
16 the road. I know that he was in an all-terrain vehicle with two others.
17 I recognized also Major Tesic. That's all.
18 Q. Before encountering Jovic, as you described it now on the way of
19 the hospital, did you ever arrive in the hospital area?
20 A. I arrived in the area of the hospital on the day when I set out
21 from the water tower towards the hospital. I encountered the vehicle on
22 the road, said hello to Jovic and the other two. We had a brief chat. I
23 then arrived at the hospital. I described the encounter in front of the
24 hospital; and after that, I never went to the hospital again.
25 Q. To the best of your recollection, when did the units of Operations
1 Group South arrive in the hospital area?
2 A. The units of Operations Group South carried out their task on the
3 18th of November in that area. On that day, we were on the right bank of
4 the River Vuka opposite the hospital. And our reconnaissance men were
5 able to observe the hospital and report on what was happening around the
6 hospital and on the approaches to the hospital.
7 Our task on that day was not to cross the River Vuka. These were
8 not our orders. This order was issued for the following day.
9 Q. We have seen documents showing that the order arrived at midnight
10 between the 18th and the 19th, approximately. Do you remember when the
11 units of Operations Group South arrived at the hospital and what time of
12 day it was?
13 A. Yes. I have read the order recently and the reports. Our task
14 was to liberate the hospital by 1000 hours on the 19th. This task was
15 carried out an hour late. We liberated the hospital at 1100 hours and
16 reported on this to the 1st Military District.
17 Q. We'll now go through the events in chronological order. After the
18 hospital --
19 JUDGE PARKER: Before you do, we need to identify the video clip
20 for the record.
21 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I apologise. Yes, certainly. That's
22 Exhibit 787. I apologise.
23 Q. Where did you go after the hospital? We're still referring to the
25 A. After the hospital, I went back to the command post in Negoslavci.
1 Q. Did you meet with anyone there?
2 A. When I came to Negoslavci, I was told that Dr. Vesna Bosanac had
3 been brought to the command post and that Colonel Mrksic and Major
4 Sljivancanin had talked to her.
5 Q. Tell me, please, do you remember what Mrksic told you? If you
6 talked to him about it, what he told you about that conversation with
7 Vesna Bosanac?
8 A. He said that within this order that we received to liberate the
9 hospital, there would be an evacuation of the wounded from the hospital,
10 as well as identification or selection of those in the hospital who had
11 previously been armed and then found shelter at the hospital. There were
12 a lot of rumours to the effect that they put on deliberately white coats
13 or put bandages or plasters on themselves.
14 He said that Vesna Bosanac and the hospital staff would help us in
15 this or, rather, in order to identify them.
16 Q. There is a document known as the Zagreb Agreement. Are you
17 familiar with the negotiations held in Zagreb about the evacuation of the
18 hospital and the decisions taken thereafter?
19 A. No. This is something that we heard of indirectly during our
20 briefings when tasks were issued and so on. It wasn't done at our level.
21 Later on, we heard of these agreements, and now we can obviously see that
22 they existed in writing.
23 Q. In order to be quite specific, I was interested in that period of
24 time on the 18th or 19th. Were you aware of such an agreement, the Zagreb
1 A. No, I wasn't.
2 Q. Did Pavkovic or somebody else inform you about the negotiations
3 held in Negoslavci on the 19th between himself, other JNA representatives,
4 and European observers? Did you hear anything of that?
5 A. Colonel Pavkovic was very active in that kind of work. He would
6 meet with international representatives, talk to them, and then inform
7 Commander Mrksic about it. I don't know any details concerning this.
8 Q. On the 19th, was an agreement reached on the evacuation of the
9 hospital? Were tasks issued, who was going to do what? Do you remember
10 who took part in discussing this?
11 A. On the 19th in the evening, the tasks were assigned, the tasks
12 that were expected on the following day, the 20th of November. The tasks
13 related to triage or selection, screening of the wounded, sick, and those
14 who were supposed to be sent in Red Cross vehicles to wherever they wanted
15 to go.
16 And then there were tasks concerning the identification and
17 selection of those who had been in armed formations and who were found at
18 the hospital. So that most likely, together with the convoy of the
19 wounded, they would leave the area of responsibility, thus evading their
20 own responsibility.
21 Q. Did Major Sljivancanin have a task within this evacuation plan?
22 A. Yes. Major Sljivancanin had a serious task, a difficult one.
23 Together with the security organs of the Operations Group South, and with
24 those who used to work at the hospital; doctors who had been fired from
25 the hospital, dismissed, and it was well-known who did what at the
1 hospital before the war; and then again with the assistance of Dr. Vesna
2 Bosanac, all of them together were supposed to separate the wounded and
3 the sick from the combatants.
4 Also, the combatants had to be separated aside and prepared to be
5 transported to Sremska Mitrovica.
6 Q. Why Sremska Mitrovica?
7 A. We sent certain individuals previously captured in combat, as well
8 as some smaller groups that surrendered to Sremska Mitrovica. And on the
9 previously day, the Mitnica group was also sent to Sremska Mitrovica. To
10 put it short, there was a holding centre, a collection centre in Sremska
11 Mitrovica for all of those who had been captured in the combat area.
12 Q. Please tell me, do you remember whether, in discussing and
13 preparing plans for the evacuation on the following day, Ovcara was
14 mentioned in any context?
15 A. Ovcara was mentioned neither by the commander or any other
16 participant in the meeting. It was not mentioned at all that those from
17 the hospital were supposed to go to Ovcara.
18 Q. Was it mentioned that somebody was supposed to go to the barracks?
19 Was it mentioned on that occasion?
20 A. On that occasion, the barracks was not mentioned either, because
21 these people were supposed to be put on buses. And once the convoy was
22 established, they were supposed to take the shortest route to Sremska
24 Q. Do you know or did you know at the time whether there were some
25 people at Velepromet who were supposed to go sent to the prison in Sremska
2 A. Yes. There were a large group of people who passed through
3 Velepromet, because people were sorted out there on the basis of where
4 they wanted to go. There were some people who wanted to go to Croatia,
5 some wanted to go to Serbia, and some people wanted to remain in the area
6 and live there.
7 Selection was conducted there -- or, rather, sorting out was
8 conducted there, and then people were sent in various convoys to various
10 Q. Do you remember under whose jurisdiction, if I may say so,
11 Velepromet was?
12 A. Velepromet is near the barracks in Vukovar. It's more to the
13 left. Looking at our area of responsibility, to the left from the road
14 leading to the centre of town. Velepromet was under the control of the
15 Vukovar TO. They had their warehouses there. Simply speaking, it was
16 their logistics base.
17 Q. Do you remember whether any organs of security from superior
18 commands came to Vukovar, and on what kind of a mission? Do you know
19 anything about that?
20 A. I know that we received reinforcement for this task. That is to
21 say, that people had arrived from the security administration who were
22 supposed to take part in the process of identification and selection at
23 the Vukovar Hospital. I also remember that Colonel Pavkovic had a very
24 prominent role in these tasks; and that together with these people, he
25 assisted a great deal in accomplishing the task of the hospital
2 Q. Having seen a lot of documents these days - and I suppose they
3 refreshed your memory to a certain extent - who, in your view, was in
4 charge of the evacuation of the hospital, the wounded, and the sick?
5 A. Let us start from the regulations. Colonel Pavkovic conducted all
6 the negotiations, agreements, discussions, negotiations. And I believe
7 him to be one of the leading people in the operation of evacuation of the
9 In addition to Colonel Pavkovic, when it comes to the issues and
10 tasks within the sphere of competence of security organs, there were
11 people who had arrived from the security administration. There was a
12 group of colonels, I remember Bogdan Vujic and some others; and naturally,
13 Major Sljivancanin.
14 MR. WEINER: Your Honour.
15 JUDGE PARKER: Yes, Mr. Weiner.
16 MR. WEINER: Your Honour, there is no information in this summary
17 relating to Colonel Pavkovic's involvement in the evacuation. We received
18 three pages of proofing notes. If maybe counsel can identify ...
19 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Lukic.
20 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, when preparing witness
21 summaries, I had in mind precisely a summary. This witness gave a 30-page
22 statement to the OTP. He testified for two days for them, and he provided
23 a great deal of information. They asked him about a great deal of things.
24 I did not include this in the summary itself, but I said in the summary
25 that I will be discussing the tasks conducted by Sljivancanin and who was
1 in charge of the evacuation.
2 This summary cannot be considered a statement. It is not our duty
3 to provide a statement to the OTP, and I don't see that such an issue
4 arises in relation to this witness. I think that sufficient information
5 was provided to the OTP, both based on the material and my summary, which
6 is detailed enough.
7 Just one more sentence, Your Honour. This is not a statement and
8 an addendum to the statement. We don't have the same duty the Prosecution
9 has. I don't want to obstruct the Prosecution from finding out relevant
10 facts, but I'm now discussing the role and place of Major Sljivancanin.
11 And we have touched upon the role of Colonel Pavkovic, and I don't think
12 that I have gone beyond the summary.
13 JUDGE PARKER: I'm curious that neither counsel has mentioned the
14 material issue, which is that there is to be provided a summary of the
15 material facts upon which the witness will give evidence. Now, the issue
16 is whether this is a material fact that has been omitted or whether it is
17 part of that other material that doesn't come into the category of
18 material fact.
19 Mr. Weiner, is there anything you would want to say about the
20 relevant issue?
21 MR. WEINER: Absolutely because within the summary, this
22 witness -- I'm sorry, within the interview with the Office of the
23 Prosecutor, this witness states in no uncertain terms that Colonel
24 Sljivancanin was in charge of the evacuation operation, that Colonel
25 Sljivancanin was appointed -- I'm sorry, Major Sljivancanin was appointed
1 by Colonel Mrksic to be in charge of the evacuation operation, that Major
2 Sljivancanin controlled the military police during the evacuation
4 Now, we're hearing Colonel Pavkovic. If they are going to
5 introduce evidence that Colonel Pavkovic was in charge, at least we should
6 receive notice that Colonel Pavkovic's name, who appointed Colonel, that
7 Colonel Pavkovic was in control, that he was issuing orders. We should
8 receive these facts.
9 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Lukic.
10 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I will respond. It will
11 probably arise in the cross-examination that when talking to this witness
12 for two days, the OTP did not show to this witness any documents relating
13 to Colonel Pavkovic, to say nothing of the way the questions were phrased.
14 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Lukic, are you in the position of saying that
15 you did not know there was to be this material change in the evidence of
16 this witness before he gave his evidence?
17 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I do not believe that this was a
18 material change in his evidence.
19 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Lukic, who was in command of the evacuation of
20 the hospital is certainly a critical fact, and this witness is changing
21 from saying it was your client to somebody else. This is at the very
22 heart of the issues between your client's case and that of the
23 Prosecution. How else can you view that?
24 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] However, the Prosecution is -- has
25 been familiar with my position from the very beginning when I started
1 cross-examining Mr. Kypr.
2 JUDGE PARKER: No. We were not aware by notice from you that this
3 witness was going to say something fundamentally different from the
4 previous statements he has made of which you had a copy. This is a
5 serious problem in notice, Mr. Lukic.
6 We will adjourn now for the second break. You will talk to Mr.
7 Weiner. And we will then hear whether that is going to be a problem if
8 there is a motion that the witness not be allowed to give this evidence,
9 which is one of the remedies Mr. Weiner has available to him, we will hear
10 it and deal with it. If there's a motion for the adjournment of
11 cross-examination to a later time, we will hear with it and deal with it,
12 but we would also ask that the two of you speak to see whether some other
13 more practical arrangement can be reached.
14 But, Mr. Lukic, this is not just a mere oversight. This is an
15 important omission.
16 We adjourn now and resume at ten minutes to.
17 --- Recess taken at 12.25 p.m.
18 --- On resuming at 12.53 p.m.
19 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Lukic.
20 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I think I have clarified
21 this issue with my learned friends. But I must inform, Your Honours,
22 because of the severe criticism I have been subjected to, that I did not,
23 indeed, mention in the proofing notes that Major Sljivancanin was not
24 designated commander of the evacuation operation. This is what I wrote in
25 the proofing notes:
1 [In English] "Informed everybody that Sljivancanin will be in
2 charge for providing the security conditions for the evacuation of the
3 wounded and sick and to separate and transfer to the prison in Mitrovica
4 members of the paramilitary formation if they will be founded. This
5 witness will testify that Sljivancanin was not designated to command over
6 the evacuation of hospital."
7 [Interpretation] Both Mr. Weiner and I discussed what evacuation
8 of the hospital means, and what screening and separating of people is.
9 Mr. Weiner agrees that perhaps the witness's response was not in line with
10 the question. The question was who was in charge of the evacuation of the
11 hospital, meaning what happened after 1100 hours. I felt this need not be
12 included in the summary, but it is in the proofing notes that this witness
13 considers that Sljivancanin was not in command of the evacuation of the
15 Mr. Weiner can speak for himself. I will not pass on his words.
16 He can speak for himself, but some things can be dealt with in
17 cross-examination, I believe.
18 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you.
19 Mr. Weiner.
20 MR. WEINER: Yes, Your Honour. The question comes back to is the
21 question which I said:
22 "Now we're hearing Colonel Pavkovic, are they going to -- if they
23 are going to introduce evidence that Colonel Pavkovic was in charge at
24 least we should receive notice of Colonel Pavkovic's name, who appointed
25 him, that Colonel Pavkovic was in control, that he was issuing orders."
1 My question at the break again is: Is that what the testimony is
2 going to be. And at the break, it's:
3 "We don't know, no one's ever asked him."
4 And I don't know where the testimony is going, and I don't think
5 anyone in this courtroom apparently knows where the testimony is going.
6 JUDGE PARKER: Do you have any firm proposition at this stage, or
7 do you wait to see the developments?
8 MR. WEINER: I know this is going to run into tomorrow with this
9 counsel and then the other counsel will probably run into much of
10 Thursday. I don't even see cross -- starting cross-examination until the
11 end of Thursday if not Friday morning. So I don't see a problem. But I'd
12 just like to know where it's going if -- other than just being surprised
13 that suddenly the witness is going to say X was in charge or Y was in
14 charge. That's all.
15 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you, Mr. Weiner.
16 I think Mr. Weiner is being very gentle with you, Mr. Lukic.
17 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I wish to assist you in reaching your
18 decision. What we stated in the summary relates to the facts in relation
19 to Mr. Sljivancanin's commanding the evacuation of the hospital. I will
20 withdraw my question as to whether this witness has any knowledge of
21 Pavkovic being in charge of the evacuation of the hospital. I was putting
22 this question on the basis of documents. But if it complicates the issue,
23 I can completely withdraw that question.
24 [Trial Chamber confers]
25 JUDGE PARKER: Very well. We are content, for the moment, Mr.
1 Lukic, that with your last proposal that you will not proceed with that
2 question and move on to some other matter. And we hope that in the course
3 of the next day or two, Mr. Weiner is in a position to continue. But may
4 the Chamber insist, Mr. Lukic, that this be looked at very carefully in
5 the context of each of the coming witnesses so that there is no repetition
6 of this type of problem. Okay?
7 Carry on, Mr. Lukic.
8 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I take your decision very seriously,
9 Your Honours. And I wish to mention that from the outset, we supplied
10 seven pages of proofing notes. And in the summer, we had oral discussions
11 where I provided information about the witnesses. So I have cooperated
12 with the Prosecution so far and we have not had such problems to date.
13 But I will certainly bear in mind Your Honour's decision as it is in the
14 interests of our defence to do so.
15 Q. Mr. Panic, let us proceed. Has your memory been jogged? In the
16 course of the 19th, was there any information reaching the commander about
17 Ovcara at the command post?
18 A. The 19th is the date when the unit that surrendered was
19 transported to Sremska Mitrovica. With respect to Ovcara, what is
20 significant for the 19th is that a convoy of buses came back which had not
21 been received by the Croatian side. The 19th is also significant because
22 when a large number of civilians were gathered at Ovcara, there were many
23 cars on the field outside the hangars. And I remember that there was
24 security problems there. There were attempts to rob those cars. In other
25 words, certain individuals simply wanted to get into a car and drive off
1 with it, regardless of whose property it was.
2 Q. Thank you.
3 A. This, of course, had to be prevented.
4 Q. Does the name of Lieutenant Colonel Ivezic mean anything to you?
5 A. Lieutenant Colonel Ivezic is a doctor, and I know he was appointed
6 hospital warden after the liberation of Vukovar. He's from the 1st
7 Military District. He was the hospital administrator.
8 Q. Who was able to appoint him hospital administrator?
9 A. The commander of the 1st Military District at the proposal of the
10 chief of the medical corps.
11 Q. The chief of the 1st Military District?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Mr. Panic, will you tell us now what you remember in connection
14 with the 20th? What were your activities in the morning?
15 A. What stands out for me with regard to the 20th was that I was
16 given the task of going to the Vukovar barracks together with Colonel
17 Marko Maric and Petrovic, Lukic, who was the then commander of the
18 barracks, and later on with Major Sljivancanin in order to prepare and
19 organise -- no. No, that was on the 21st.
20 I do apologise. The 20th. Oh, yes, the 20th. On the 20th, I
21 spent that day in the barracks up to a certain time, and then I received a
22 telephone call. But the tasks I have mentioned, that's correct, yes. I
23 was a little confused about the dates.
24 Q. We are speaking of the day the hospital was evacuated.
25 A. Oh, yes. I was at the Vukovar barracks; and at one point, I
1 received a phone call. I was ordered to report to Commander Mrksic. I
2 came down from the room where we were preparing a press conference in the
3 barracks. I went downstairs where there was a telephone receiver. I
4 responded to the phone call and I was given the following task: Go to the
5 cabinet session of western Srem, eastern Slavonia, and Baranja, the SAO,
6 which is being held on the premises of Velepromet.
7 Q. Who gave you this task?
8 A. Commander Mrksic. I mentioned then that the meeting had already
9 started when I arrived. It had started about half an hour before. I told
10 him that, and he said: "That doesn't matter. You are to go there to greet
11 them, to tell them that I am unable to attend the cabinet meeting." And
12 you are to attend the session and then report to me what decisions are
14 Q. How did you know that the meeting had already started, and did you
15 know what the topic was?
16 A. Well, I had been in the barracks since the morning. There were
17 other officers there. And there were also several members of the local
18 Territorial Defence. In my conversations with them, I heard that the
19 cabinet session was being held. Also, I saw a bus in the barracks with
20 people from the hospital and members of the local Territorial Defence and
21 some local people trying to get to those buses.
22 The reason they wanted to approach the bus was to point out
23 persons who had killed their close family members. I remember them
24 pointing and saying: This one killed my mother or my sister. That one
25 killed people with a sledgehammer, and so on. They were trying to
1 approach the bus to come closer to it.
2 As the bus was in a military facility and was being guarded by the
3 military police. They couldn't come close to it, let alone board the bus.
4 Of course, there were commanding officers there, senior officers, and I
5 pointed out to them the seriousness of the situation. I said they should
6 not allow anyone to do anything bad in the barracks compound, and that
7 they should remove those persons whose intention was to approach the bus.
8 Q. Do you remember what officers you discussed this with? Who was
10 A. The most responsible person who was on the spot and whose unit was
11 guarding the bus was Captain Predojevic, who was commanding the military
12 police. There was also Lieutenant Colonel Lukic.
13 Q. And what was his position?
14 A. He was the barracks commander, and the commander of the area
15 around the barracks in Vukovar. I think that Susic was also there. And
16 to put it briefly, there was no threat to the people on the bus because
17 all security measures were taken.
18 Q. Before talking to Colonel Mrksic, did you know what would be
19 discussed at this cabinet session?
20 A. Yes. When he ordered me to go to the cabinet session, I heard
21 from the persons I mentioned that the main item on the agenda at the
22 cabinet session would be what to do with the persons who were members of
23 the National Guard Corps; that is the paramilitary formations, who were
24 disguised as patients. They said they would not allow them to be
25 transported to Sremska Mitrovica according to the same procedure.
1 Q. When you say according to the same procedure, what procedure did
2 you have in mind?
3 A. I had in mind the procedure that had already been applied to the
4 group from Mitnica, 170 people.
5 Q. Very well, please proceed.
6 A. As I had this information, when talking to Mrksic, I mentioned to
7 him that I had heard that they wanted to discuss this topic and that they
8 wanted to prevent the transport of those persons to Mitrovica. He said to
9 me: "I will agree with whatever decision they reach at the cabinet
11 Q. And what happened next?
12 A. I went to the cabinet session which, in my view, had already
13 started half an hour before. I entered the room where the session was
14 being held. I greeted -- well, first, I introduced myself, and then I
15 greeted the prime minister, Goran Hadzic. They offered me a seat,
16 although the room was already full. They found a chair for me, and I sat
17 down and followed the further course of the meeting. Of course, I told
18 them that I had been sent by the commander. I conveyed his greetings and
19 his message.
20 Q. Do you remember who was there? How many people were there? Do
21 you remember some names?
22 A. It was a room the size of a classroom. It was somewhat smaller
23 than this courtroom. And the entire cabinet was there, as I understood
24 it. The Minister Of the Interior, this minister, that minister, that's
25 how they introduced themselves. So I came to understand it was the entire
1 cabinet. I knew Goran Hadzic. I knew Dusan Jaksic who was also sitting
2 there. He was the commander of the local Territorial Defence. And I saw
3 that the session was also being attended by Zeljko Raznjatovic, Arkan,
4 whom I had seen in the media but that was the first time I encountered him
5 in person in my life.
6 In addition, there was also the JNA colonel. I didn't know his
7 name. I didn't know the man. But later on, I learned and I met him, and
8 that was Colonel Bogdan Vujic. These are the people who, to my knowledge,
9 present at the cabinet session; and, based on what they said, these people
10 were at the highest level of the government.
11 Q. How long did you stay at the meeting? Did you stay until the end?
12 Just tell us; and then after that, tell us what you heard and what was the
13 atmosphere like and so on?
14 A. I stayed half an hour at the most which is how long the session
15 took. So if it started half an hour prior to my arrival, and then it also
16 lasted half an hour while I was there, that is to say that in total, it
17 took an hour.
18 As for the atmosphere at the session, I could previously say the
19 following: The discussion and murmurs stopped for just a second while I
20 entered and greeted Goran Hadzic; and then a heated debate resumed, and
21 verbal attacks on the JNA, that is to say, on the army, through the mouth
22 of Colonel Vujic. They addressed him, and they had a lot of complaints
23 again the army, that is to say against the JNA. Certain ministers took
24 part in discussion as well. They said that under no circumstances persons
25 who had been identified as members of the paramilitary formations
1 or those who had been armed should be transported to Sremska Mitrovica.
2 They said the following: "Vukovar is now free. We have the
3 government that is functioning. We have all branches of government. We
4 have the judiciary, the executive, so we can put these criminals on trial.
5 We will not allow them to be transported to Sremska Mitrovica and be
6 exchanged based on the principle 'All for all,' as was done with some
7 previous groups."
8 Q. Mr. Panic, did you write any notes on that occasion?
9 A. No, nothing specific, since this task was a surprise to me. I
10 have to say that I was surprised when they asked me to go and attend the
11 cabinet session. I had to rush down the stairs to call commander on the
12 phone urgently, so my officer's bag remained in the office where we had
13 prepared the press conference for the following day.
14 All I had on me at that time was a small notebook, and I managed
15 to record something in it. I didn't know these persons so my notes are
16 not particularly organised, but what I did write there enabled me to
17 convey to my commander what was decided at the session.
18 Q. Did you keep the notebook?
19 A. I did. I did. It's not really a notebook, a proper notebook.
20 It's a note pad that remained in my pocket.
21 Q. So looking at your statements, Mr. Panic, you obviously showed
22 that note pad both to the OTP and to the court in Belgrade. And we have
23 it here; we have the original here. You brought it with you. And now can
24 we please place on the ELMO this document, 3D06003. English version is
25 attached in the set of documents that you received, Your Honours. This is
1 the OTP statement 04618179.
2 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction: In one of the
3 previous answers, instead of "through the mouth of Colonel Vujic," it
4 should be "in the shape of Colonel Vujic."
5 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] 3D060032.
6 JUDGE PARKER: We don't appear to have these notes, Mr. Lukic.
7 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] You will receive it now. You will
8 receive these statements that this witness gave, and within these
9 statements, you have his notes. The English translation is attached to
10 the OTP statement.
11 JUDGE PARKER: Wait a minute. Do you say that it's attached to
12 the OTP statement?
13 MR. LUKIC: That's right, Your Honour.
14 JUDGE PARKER: I was just checking to see whether that was in the
15 set that you've given us, but not so.
16 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] We are being buried by documents.
17 Could you please -- this is the original to be shown to the Trial
19 Q. Sir, Mr. Panic, this is your handwriting. I'm going to ask you to
20 read this out slowly for the sake of the transcript. Could you please
21 scroll up so we see the date.
22 Can you please read it out loud, Mr. Panic, and slowly.
23 A. Yes. Correct. This is my handwriting. This is the 20th of
24 November, 1991.
25 "Meeting with the cabinet of the Krajina SAO," that's what I wrote
1 down although perhaps the phrasing is not the best.
2 Then it says, "Stupar." He's putting question and I don't know
3 who Stupar is. But he's asking: "Who is going to put the imprisoned
4 Ustashas on trial. I know that Stupar is one of the ministers.
5 And then he said,"these are prisoners of war." And then he
6 says, "Naturally, they are criminals. They have bloodied their hands, and
7 so on." I wrote it down briefly.
8 And then Minister of the Interior says: "We waged the war together
9 and we have to try them together. These people and the government should
10 have been consulted as to how these people are to be tried and where.
11 Only over the citizens' dead bodies can it be possible to go from Vukovar
12 to Sremska Mitrovica with the Ustashas."
13 This is what I wrote down; and if necessary, I can clarify the
14 debate which was quite bad.
15 Q. Yes, we will continue. The second page of this document, as
16 well. We scanned it, but it pertains to something quite different;
18 A. As far as I remember, it has to do with the supplies for the
19 hospital; oil, cables, light bulbs, I don't know what else.
20 Q. This last portion that you read out comes after the underlying
21 text, "minister of the interior." Does the name of Bogunovic Boro mean
22 anything to you?
23 A. The name is familiar. I think we had some problems with him in
24 Negoslavci. He's somebody who didn't do his job well.
25 Q. Do you attribute these words to him; namely, that only over the
1 citizens' dead bodies can it be possible to leave Vukovar? So do you
2 attribute these words to the minister of the interior?
3 A. It's been many years. Looking at this, one could say that those
4 were the words uttered by him, but it could also be perceived that these
5 were the words uttered by Goran Hadzic which I remember. And later on, I
6 heard him saying something for television. This was basically their
7 conclusion; namely, that only over the citizens' dead bodies can it be
8 possible to leave Vukovar and go to Sremska Mitrovica with the Ustashas.
9 This is the conclusion actually given by Goran Hadzic, the prime minister.
10 Q. What else do you remember?
11 A. He didn't say only this. He also said that those who had been
12 transported to Sremska Mitrovica from Mitnica on the previous day; namely,
13 those 170 members of paramilitary formations, that he will speak to the
14 relevant authorities in the state and in the army asking that these people
15 be brought back and prosecuted there.
16 Q. While you were present, did they say --
17 A. They claimed that several times. They repeated that several
19 Q. What?
20 A. "See, Vukovar is free." That was on the 20th and Vukovar was
21 liberated on the 18th.
22 Then they were saying, "The government in Vukovar is functioning,,
23 we have a cabinet with proper ministries. We have organs of authority
24 that are capable to prosecute these people."
25 Goran Hadzic said: "Those who have bloodied their hands will be
1 put on trial."
2 Those were his words. "Those who are innocent will remain in
3 Vukovar and have a normal al life and peaceful life there."
4 Q. Was Ovcara mentioned in that debate in any context?
5 A. They decided. So one of the conclusions reached by Hadzic is that
6 we will put them on trial and the prison will be at Ovcara. That was
7 their decision.
8 Q. Do you remember when the meeting ended? Do you remember what
9 happened afterwards? Did you speak during the meeting?
10 A. At one point in time, I felt sorry for Colonel Vujic. The
11 discussion was inappropriate in relation to the level. However, they were
12 convincing, saying that they had resources, that they had competence and
13 jurisdiction to try these people. I told them then that the commander had
14 told me that he would accept their decision.
15 Following that, the debate didn't continue for much longer.
16 Naturally, Hadzic uttered conclusion and the session ended soon
17 thereafter. I went back to the barracks immediately. And those who were
18 at the session, I think all of them remained there at Velepromet.
19 Q. We heard testimony here, so I will put a question to you: Did you
20 ban anyone from entering the meeting when you yourself came to the
22 A. No. I didn't ban anyone nor why would I? Why would I prevent
23 anyone from coming to the meeting? How would I know their position and
24 pursuant to whose orders they came? Just as I didn't know on the basis of
25 whose orders and what task Colonel Vujic attended the session.
1 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, could we first tender
2 this document into evidence, please? As far as I am concerned, both pages
3 can go in just as they were scanned.
4 JUDGE PARKER: The original note and the English translation, that
5 is the first page only, will be received into evidence.
6 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit 852, Your Honours.
7 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]
8 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours.
9 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Lukic.
10 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] If the second page has not been
11 translated, it's very short. The witness can read it out and you will
12 have a complete translation of the whole document. So if the second page
13 can be put on the ELMO.
14 JUDGE PARKER: It may have been, I'm not clear, so this will
15 resolve that. Thank you.
16 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation].
17 Q. Can you read this out slowly?
18 A. I noted on the following day the needs for the hospital; cable --
19 Q. Date?
20 A. The 21st of November, 1991. For the hospital; cable, PGP for --
21 with four strands, 20 metres; anti-freeze, 10 litres; motor oil, 10
22 litres; cable PPR, two times 1.5, 20 metres; fuel oil, glass, plumbers,
24 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Could we now take a look at a video
25 clip MFI 576.
1 [Videotape played]
2 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
3 Q. Mr. Panic, who is this, and can you comment on this?
4 A. This is the prime minister of Slavonia, Baranja and western Srem,
5 Goran Hadzic. There is no need for me to add anything, this is the
6 conclusion they reached. They will even ask for those who are already in
7 Sremska Mitrovica to be brought back.
8 Q. And what he is saying here, does it reflect what you heard when
9 you attended the cabinet session?
10 A. Precisely so. He is here stating in public the same conclusions
11 that were reached at the cabinet session.
12 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.
13 Your Honours, I am still awaiting your decision with respect to
14 this document which I tender.
15 JUDGE PARKER: It will, for the moment, be marked for
16 identification if it is the same as the one we have, I'm not sure.
17 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] It's the same.
18 JUDGE PARKER: We will be reaching a decision on that.
19 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.
20 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]
21 JUDGE PARKER: It's marked for identification, the video is 576, I
22 believe, Mr. Lukic.
23 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Yes.
24 JUDGE PARKER: And the transcript of that will be linked to it,
25 for the purposes of identification.
1 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.
2 Your Honours, there are five minutes left. I was intending to
3 show the witness a five-minute video of Velepromet, you will recall. So
4 it might be better to adjourn for the day because if I were to show the
5 video now, I couldn't begin asking questions about it. It's about five
6 minutes long.
7 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you. Yes, we ran over time yesterday
8 delaying the next court so we better not do it again today.
9 We adjourn now and resume tomorrow at 9.00 in the morning.
10 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.40 p.m.,
11 to be reconvened on Thursday, the 9th day of
12 November, 2006, at 9.00 a.m.