Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 14750

1 Thursday, 16 November 2006

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 [The witness entered court]

5 --- Upon commencing at 2.20 p.m.

6 JUDGE PARKER: Good afternoon. Unfortunately,

7 Judge Van den Wyngaert is not able to sit today, and we expect she will

8 sit possibly Tuesday of next week. She will be back and able to sit. We

9 have decided to continue sitting under the rule.

10 The affirmation that you made at the beginning of your evidence

11 still applies. Thank you.


13 [Witness answered through interpreter]

14 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Vasic.

15 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Thank. Good afternoon, Your Honours.

16 Good afternoon to all in the courtroom.

17 Examination by Mr. Vasic:

18 Q. [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Mr. Korica.

19 A. Good afternoon.

20 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: Could all microphones

21 please be switched off, please, except for the speaker.

22 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation].

23 Q. My name is Miroslav Vasic, I'm an attorney-at-law, and I have a

24 few questions for you. Could you please pause after I finish putting my

25 question. It worked yesterday with Mr. Lukic, so I hope that it will work

Page 14751

1 today so that everyone in the courtroom can follow what we are saying and

2 the interpreters can keep up with us.

3 Thank you. First of all, yesterday, in response to Mr. Lukic's

4 questions, you spoke about your military career and you said that you

5 spent some time in the counter-intelligence group of the

6 1st Military District and from 1991, until 1993, Bogdan Vujic was your

7 superior.

8 A. Yes, you understood me properly.

9 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreters note they can hardly hear the

10 witness.

11 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation]

12 Q. Bearing that in mind, I assume that you knew Mr. Vujic well and

13 cooperated with him professionally; and there's one thing that struck me,

14 what you said to the representatives of the OTP in The Hague. You said

15 that Colonel Bogdan Vujic is prone to invent things; is that what you

16 really said and is that true?

17 A. I said that and I stand by that.

18 Q. Can you tell me whether, in your business cooperation, if I can

19 put it that way, and if you say that his -- that he was your superior for

20 a while, did you write reports together with Mr. Vujic and did he express

21 that particular characteristic of his when he wrote official reports?

22 A. Yes, but not in such a pronounced way.

23 Q. Can you just explain to us in a few sentences what this was all

24 about, this tendency of his to twist things, to invent things?

25 A. Well, I don't think he invented things, but he would always add

Page 14752

1 something, making his own effort more important.

2 Q. So that his role would be enhanced in that way, did I understand

3 you well?

4 A. Yes, you understood me well.

5 Q. There's one thing that is unclear to me from your answers to

6 Mr. Lukic's questions yesterday; it has to do with the name or nickname

7 Colonel Branko. You explained that yesterday. You explained what

8 happened, roughly, in Velepromet with Arkan and how come the colonel

9 addressed Arkan as Colonel Branko.

10 I'm not going to ask you about that again but as far as you know,

11 at previous assignments and during this assignment in Vukovar, did he have

12 a secret name as a security officer, as an intelligence officer?

13 A. I worked for the security from 1959 until 1986, and never ever did

14 I have a secret name, not in a single action, let alone bear a name like

15 that all the time. None of my colleagues had a name like that either, and

16 I never heard of Bogdan Vujic having a secret nickname, Colonel Branko.

17 Q. Thank you very much. Can we just go back for a moment to your

18 answers from yesterday that had to do with contacts with Bogdan Vujic over

19 the past few years, as you had put it, and his requests, if I can put it

20 that way, that you come to his apartment to talk to him. I'm interested

21 in the following: When you talked to him in his apartment, did he try to

22 convince you that what he gave you as his statement that he gave to the

23 OTP was, in actual fact, what did happen, although your view of things

24 differed from that?

25 A. Well, I intervened on the spot, in his apartment, and I proved

Page 14753

1 things to him and I showed things to him; for example, the IDs I had, I

2 have them here with me. I showed him what weapons I had, and he added

3 that to his statement, that I had a rifle. I never carried a rifle. And

4 that is how I opposed some other things that he said by way of detail in

5 his statement, on the spot, and as a matter of fact, I left

6 demonstratively without having read it fully.

7 Q. Thank you, Mr. Korica. I'm not going to deal with Mr. Vujic's

8 statement, but I will deal with the transcript, or rather, testimony

9 before this Tribunal. I just want to ask you if he mentioned then that he

10 invoked your name when he spoke of different events and did he ask you to

11 confirm that?

12 A. Except for what I read there, he didn't ask me to confirm anything

13 that was not correct. I immediately said what I disagreed with.

14 Q. Thank you. Let us go back to the period you described here after

15 your retirement, you came to your former unit, that's what you told us,

16 and you said that actually by way of a joke, you were sent to combat

17 action. Tell me, when you came to this unit, Major Muncan's unit, it was

18 also a counter-intelligence unit like before, right? Is that right?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. And it was under the command of the now late

21 Colonel Ljubisa Petkovic?

22 A. Under the professional control of Ljubisa Petkovic.

23 Q. Thank you. You said to us that the building where the

24 headquarters or centre of this counter-intelligence group was was in the

25 post office building in Sid, and you said that you worked on interviewing

Page 14754

1 some persons who had been brought in and you said there were ethnic Croats

2 and ethnic Serbs. Tell me, this centre where these persons were brought

3 in, where was this centre where you interviewed people?

4 A. That centre was I think in a place called Slovacki Dom, that is

5 where people were brought in, and the military police were there. And a

6 captain was in charge; I don't know whether he was a policeman.

7 Q. Tell me, was this captain from the command of the 1st Military

8 District?

9 A. I don't think so.

10 Q. Thank you very much. Do you know whether, in the building of the

11 elementary school Sremski front in Sid there was a unit or a particular

12 organ?

13 A. As far as I know -- well, I don't know what the name of the school

14 is, but as far as I know, in Sid there weren't any other military security

15 organs except for us, and the army was in one school; but I don't know

16 whether they were ordinary soldiers or military policemen, but no security

17 organs.

18 Q. Thank you. And do you know whether, in this area, there were any

19 security organs of the air force and the air defence?

20 A. I did not contact them. I don't know.

21 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: Could Mr. Vasic please

22 switch off his microphone; we cannot hear the witness when the witness

23 speaks.

24 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation]

25 Q. Thank you. Please tell us if you know or if you don't know who

Page 14755

1 Zivanovic and Zaric are; do you know these persons?

2 A. No.

3 Q. Thank you. Tell me, please, Mr. Korica, during your work in Sid,

4 did you cooperate with a group that worked on interrogation and

5 interviewing prisoners of war in Begeci?

6 A. No, I didn't have any contact with them, and I didn't know who all

7 the people working there were.

8 Q. Thank you. In the words of Colonel Bogdan Vujic, he and his group

9 were sent to the Vukovar front line by the security administration; did

10 you know about that?

11 A. Yes, that's what Captain Muncan had told us, that we were going

12 there to reinforce the group from the security administration where Vujic

13 was.

14 Q. Thank you. This group was sent by the security administration to

15 carry out the triage and screening of members of the Croatian paramilitary

16 forces, as you described yesterday, to separate them from the other

17 civilians and, possibly within these groups, to find out who the war

18 crimes suspects were?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Yesterday, you also said that the superior of your group was

21 Bogdan Vujic; that's what he became at a certain point in time. Can you

22 explain this to us, at what locations was he your superior, or rather,

23 Captain Muncan, Major Muncan -- sorry about that.

24 A. He was a captain then.

25 Q. Sorry, Captain Muncan.

Page 14756

1 A. First of all, in view of the fact that Muncan explained that we

2 were going to this group of the security administration and that there

3 were three colonels there were, we were resubordinated to them. I was

4 with Bogdan Vujic, and he was my superior in Velepromet and at the

5 hospital.

6 Q. Thank you. He was an officer from the superior command; is that

7 right?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Thank you. Yesterday, you talked about how you came to Negoslavci

10 and how, in the town command, you found these officers from the security

11 administration where Colonel Mrksic, as commander of the command of

12 Operations Group South - as is only proper when one comes to the territory

13 of his unit - spoke to you and familiarised you with the situation in the

14 territory and in his unit. Is that right?

15 A. Yes, that's right.

16 Q. After that, you said that you went to Velepromet. I'm interested

17 in two things only in respect of that: First of all, when you went that

18 evening to Velepromet, on that day and on the following day, did you see

19 Colonel Mrksic ever again at that time?

20 A. I did not see Colonel Mrksic at all after that, throughout my stay

21 in Vukovar.

22 Q. Thank you. Next question: You said that you went to Velepromet

23 in cars. Can we be more specific. How did you travel and how did this

24 group from the security administration travel? I mean, I'm not talking

25 about types of vehicles, but did you go on foot or by car?

Page 14757

1 A. We all went by car, two cars.

2 Q. Could you please be so kind to tell us how it was that you

3 returned from Velepromet and Negoslavci around 1.00 that night, as you

4 told us?

5 A. I returned with Captain Muncan in my group by car, the same car

6 that took me there. I don't know how Bogdan Vujic came back.

7 Q. Thank you. Are you telling us that you didn't see how he came

8 back?

9 A. I did not see how he came back. I did not see how Kijanovic and

10 Tomic came back either.

11 Q. Thank you. Yesterday, you told us about how you came to

12 Velepromet on the 19th of November and, as you said, it was under the

13 control of the Territorial Defence. Could you now please tell me who took

14 over control over the evacuation of these persons from Velepromet when

15 this group from the security administration arrived and when you arrived

16 there?

17 A. I think it was Bogdan Vujic who took over control. Tomic and

18 Kijanovic never issued any orders to me. Vujic contacted Ljubinko as

19 well, Ljubinko Stojanovic, and Captain Borisavljevic, and all of us.

20 Q. Thank you. Did he issue any orders regarding activities that

21 should be taken by way of preparing the transport of these persons, the

22 compiling of lists? Was that done on orders from Bogdan Vujic?

23 A. Lists were made on orders from Bogdan Vujic, namely when the buses

24 arrived -- there weren't any preparations regarding this, but when the

25 buses arrived, he said that these people would be taken out of the hangar

Page 14758

1 and boarded on to these buses. How they should sit down, or rather, how

2 they should board the buses, that all the seats should be taken, and that

3 all should have proper seats, that no one should be allowed to stand in

4 the bus. And in every bus, there should be one officer who would write

5 down the names of all the persons who were on the bus and then to hand

6 these lists over to Srecko Borisavljevic, which is exactly what I did.

7 Q. In your opinion, knowing Bogdan Vujic, would he have been likely

8 to take all necessary steps, including the use of force or weapons, had

9 there been any attempts to --

10 MR. MOORE: The witness is being asked for his opinion on the

11 matter. It's my submission that that is inappropriate.

12 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Vasic, your question seems to be searching for

13 an opinion.

14 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, my question begins by

15 asking for an opinion, but I'm afraid my learned friend did not allow me

16 to complete my question. What I'm trying to ask the witness - since the

17 witness was physically present at Velepromet as was Mr. Vujic - is to tell

18 me about some of the events described by Mr. Vujic in his evidence. We

19 have a witness here who is exceptionally familiar with Mr. Vujic and

20 familiar with his reactions in a professional context. This is what I was

21 about to ask him: Had those people at Velepromet, being attacked,

22 harassed or even killed, would Bogdan Vujic --

23 JUDGE PARKER: You can't ask for an opinion like that. You can

24 ask what he saw Vujic do; what situations arose while he was there, if you

25 need to; but going for an opinion as to what he thinks Vujic would have

Page 14759

1 done if some situation arose is not the way we can allow the evidence to

2 run. It's opinion on conjecture.

3 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Thank you. I'll rephrase my question.

4 Q. Mr. Korica, while you were at Velepromet, did you see anyone kill

5 any persons there, beat them, or indeed harass them?

6 A. No, I saw no such thing.

7 Q. You spent most of your time at Velepromet with Bogdan Vujic,

8 right?

9 A. Yes, 90 per cent of the time I spent there.

10 Q. According to the rules of service, what would a security officer

11 be expected to do or be required to do if anyone were to attack any

12 persons that he was in charge of securing and evacuating?

13 A. That officer would have had to enlist the assistance of the

14 military police in order to foil any such threats.

15 Q. Would he have been authorised to order the use of weapons?

16 A. Yes, if necessary.

17 Q. Would he not have been required, once the situation had been dealt

18 with and back to normal, to arrest those persons who were being violent

19 and perhaps take steps against them?

20 A. I do believe so.

21 Q. Did you ever hear Bogdan Vujic at Velepromet on the 19th of

22 November telling anyone things like: Get back to your senses, Vojvodo.

23 Was there anything like that happening?

24 A. Yes, when those persons were getting on to the buses, the military

25 police had arrived. They were securing the buses, and there was this man

Page 14760

1 called Topola who was not able to get on to a bus with Bogdan Vujic

2 compiling lists. There was something like that being uttered, but I

3 didn't quite catch the whole sentence. Later on, however, Vujic and the

4 other people who were there, quoted the sentence to me in that form.

5 Q. Did they tell you at the time whether Topola actually physically

6 clashed with Vujic or was he just standing there at the door of the bus?

7 A. I was not aware of any physical contact or clash between the two

8 of them.

9 Q. Had anyone attacked an officer, a security officer in this case,

10 in the line of duty what would that security officer have been authorised

11 to do about that? What would he have been supposed to do under the rules

12 of service that applied at the time?

13 A. You're asking me a hypothetical question. I'm telling you nothing

14 much happened. It's very difficult to answer what he would have done,

15 given the set of circumstances you described.

16 Q. I am not asking you what he would have done, I'm asking you about

17 the law. What would an officer like that be authorised to do if attacked

18 in the line of duty? Would he have the right to defend himself, to use a

19 firearm, or even kill that person in order to protect himself? Is this

20 not something that is clearly defined in the rules of service?

21 A. Yes, and that is clearly envisaged in relation to all persons,

22 civilians included. Everyone has the right to protect himself.

23 Q. On the 19th of November, 1991, while at Velepromet, did you hear

24 Bogdan Vujic order anyone to use force or weapons?

25 A. No, nothing like that occurred.

Page 14761

1 Q. Thank you. I will now be putting to you sections of Mr. Vujic's

2 evidence, specifically in relation to him saying that you specifically did

3 certain things. So this is what I'd like to ask you. I would like to ask

4 you if the things that he said of you were true.

5 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] This is dated the 16th of November,

6 for the Court's reference and my learned friend's reference. 4510 is the

7 page number.

8 Q. He says that at one point at Velepromet, you came up to him and

9 told him that certain persons like Marko Crevar and Topola were saying

10 that they wanted to kill him along with the Ustashas. Is this something

11 you told him at Velepromet on the 19th of November?

12 A. First I hear of it.

13 Q. Thank you. The 16th -- rather, the transcript reference is 4520,

14 Bogdan Vujic's evidence on the 17th of February, 2006. Mr. Vujic claims

15 that you told him, once the evacuation had started of persons on to those

16 buses, that some TO men, Chetniks specifically, were taking people away

17 from Velepromet and that those people were not seen again and that there

18 were bursts of gun-fire being heard nearby. You said this was the doing

19 of Marko Crevar, who had previously said that he would kill him too along

20 with the Ustashas. Is this true? Is this something you told Bogdan Vujic

21 on the 19th of November at Velepromet?

22 A. This is a complete fabrication. They did react, but Crevar talked

23 to me. It was a perfectly normal conversation. It wasn't always Crevar,

24 but those people were tipsy and their reaction was: Why were we

25 protecting those people? But did I say that they were taking people

Page 14762

1 away? Did I see them taking people away? I would have been the first to

2 stop it, and I most certainly would have informed Colonel Vujic and

3 Borisavljevic as well to try to get them to stop it.

4 However, I never said that, I never saw that, I never heard that,

5 nor indeed, did I ever hear any bursts of gun-fire behind the hangar. As

6 for behind the hangar and the villages and the surroundings, well,

7 everyone saw that.

8 Q. You explained that in answer to a question by my learned friend,

9 Mr. Lukic, yesterday. Thank you.

10 You say that you returned to Negoslavci sometime past 1.00 at

11 night. You say that you went straight to the operations room at the

12 command post of OG South, you spent the night there. You say that

13 Colonel Mrksic was no longer around when you arrived, only the duty

14 officer was there. Was my understanding correct?

15 A. Indeed it was, but I'm not quite positive. I do have a belief

16 that the only person still around was the duty officer.

17 Q. Thank you. You also said yesterday that Colonel Vujic arrived

18 after you and he stayed with you through that night until the following

19 morning. Did I get that right, sir?

20 A. You did.

21 Q. The next day, you say you were off to the hospital. What time did

22 you arrive there, if you can remember that?

23 A. I think it was sometime at around 7.00.

24 Q. You told us what you did there. You said it took just over two

25 hours. Do you remember when you eventually left the hospital and came

Page 14763

1 back to Velepromet?

2 A. I think we left the hospital at about 10.00, and we soon made it

3 back to Velepromet. We drove there in the military vehicle en route for

4 Negoslavci, and they still had room enough inside the vehicle to take us

5 along. I'm not sure how long it took, but we didn't stop anywhere on the

6 way. Sometime past 10.00.

7 Q. What would you say, sir, if I told you that there is a person

8 claiming that they came with you to Velepromet and that they arrived after

9 12.00? This is one of the security officers from the security

10 administration saying that.

11 A. I did not drive with any such person then.

12 Q. Who did you drive with in that vehicle that you mentioned on your

13 way to Velepromet?

14 A. With Bogdan Vujic.

15 Q. Thank you. When you arrived at Velepromet with Bogdan Vujic, you

16 say you spent some time in an office which you believe was

17 Ljubinko Stojanovic's office. Did I get that right, sir?

18 A. Yes. At first I thought it was Borisavljevic's office, but I

19 later found out that this was Ljubinko's office.

20 Q. Thank you. Yesterday, you told us about what happened in

21 Ljubinko Stojanovic's office while you were there. You also talked about

22 Bogdan Vujic's departure to attend that cabinet meeting. I want to know

23 something about something that happened after the cabinet meeting.

24 Bogdan Vujic told you about the meeting. When he returned, did he

25 tell you that he was afraid for his life and that he had been a sort of

Page 14764

1 hostage at that meeting, at that cabinet meeting?

2 A. Bogdan Vujic said no such thing at the time. He did -- at a later

3 stage, he told me about that, but what he told me at the time was a short

4 but honest account, or at least that's what I believe.

5 Q. We will return to that later on. Once he had told you about what

6 had happened at the cabinet meeting, did Bogdan Vujic go out into

7 Velepromet's yard before he was off to barracks on that afternoon?

8 A. I left the room at one point; Bogdan Vujic remained inside. This

9 was when I saw Goran Hadzic, who was the only person I recognised. I do

10 not know anybody else. We exchanged greetings, but at this point in time

11 Bogdan Vujic did not leave the room. He did go outside later on. He went

12 outside into the yard. I don't know what he did, because I wasn't with

13 him.

14 Q. Thank you. Let me ask you this: Do you remember Bogdan Vujic

15 leaving, going outside before the cabinet meeting? What would you say,

16 sir?

17 A. I don't think he ever left or went outside before the cabinet

18 meeting. I can't be positive, but I think he sat down to write some notes

19 and I was fiddling with that handbag. But I don't think he ever left the

20 room.

21 Q. How much time elapsed between the time you left Velepromet and the

22 time Bogdan Vujic sat down to write those notes and before he was

23 eventually called to that cabinet meeting?

24 A. Over an hour, I'm certain about that. Perhaps even as many as two

25 hours.

Page 14765

1 Q. Bogdan Vujic claims that the cabinet meeting began past 1300

2 hours; would that jog your memory, sir?

3 A. That changes nothing, I think. I don't know when exactly we

4 arrived, but -- from the hospital. I'm not certain if it was 10.00 or

5 possibly half past 10.00. It changes nothing about my perception of the

6 time-line or how long we stayed inside to do some work. It changes

7 nothing. It is certainly possible that the meeting began at 1300 hours.

8 Q. Would you be so kind, sir, as to repeat what it was exactly that

9 Bogdan Vujic told you once he was back from the cabinet meeting, what you

10 told us yesterday.

11 A. Firstly, he told me that he had quarrelled with the people there

12 because they had asked him to surrender the prisoners to them, saying that

13 the prisoners belonged to them. So that is what the main quarrel was

14 about. He said Arkan was the only armed person there, but he did not take

15 part in the cabinet's work. He told me there was a severe exchange

16 between him, on the one hand, and the cabinet members, on the other, about

17 the exchange of prisoners. He made a threat at one time that he would get

18 a cameraman there to record the proceedings and then the -- what the prime

19 minister, Goran Hadzic, said that they would attack them with tanks --

20 that they would attack JNA tanks if they had been -- if they were allowed

21 to take the prisoners away.

22 Q. Did he say anything else that was of any importance at all or was

23 this how the cabinet meeting ended?

24 A. I don't really know whether he said anything else that was

25 important or not. I can't remember right now. He may have.

Page 14766

1 Q. Did he perhaps mention that he had been attacked there, or that he

2 had told them that he was there on behalf of the Supreme Command and the

3 chief of the security administration?

4 A. No, he didn't say that.

5 Q. Did he say that he had told them that there would be no question

6 of surrendering those prisoners because they would have to be sent to

7 Sremska Mitrovica, being JNA prisoners?

8 A. No, he didn't say things like that to me. If indeed he had been

9 there on behalf of the Supreme Command, then he might as well have

10 surrendered those prisoners. It's certainly not something he shared with

11 me.

12 Q. Did he perhaps tell you if this cabinet meeting was attended by

13 any other officers?

14 A. Yes, he did. You see, it slipped my mind a moment ago. He told

15 me that halfway through the meeting in mid-stream, as it were, as they

16 were busy debating, a colonel arrived. He wasn't sure which unit this

17 colonel belonged to, whether he was a member of the Guards Brigade or

18 whether he had arrived from Belgrade. He brought some sort of a document

19 and told them that if that was the decision eventually taken, in that

20 case, they could set up a POW camp, which is what they had been asking

21 for, clamouring for.

22 Q. Do you remember his exact words, how he told you this? Is what

23 you told us a moment ago an accurate reflection of his words at the time?

24 A. I would say 99 per cent perfect.

25 Q. If I tell you that Mr. Vujic could not have said any such thing to

Page 14767

1 you because he himself had not heard what the lieutenant-colonel said at

2 this government session, would that change your view?

3 A. It wouldn't.

4 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] The reference is pages 4562 and 4563

5 for the Court and my learned friend.

6 Q. If I tell you that another witness also did not mention that no

7 approval for setting up a POW camp was referred to, would that jog your

8 memory or change your view?

9 A. It wouldn't change anything, because Bogdan Vujic told me that

10 immediately after that there was rejoicing in that office.

11 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Lukic.

12 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I'm late, but I'm objecting now

13 because the witness is talking about indirect knowledge, what Bogdan Vujic

14 told him. Now would what third persons said change his view in terms of

15 the indirect knowledge he had? It's not that he has any direct

16 knowledge. He's just sharing with us what Vujic shared with him, so

17 that's why I think this is improper.

18 JUDGE PARKER: I'm -- I haven't grasped your point, I'm afraid,

19 Mr. Lukic.

20 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] It seems I'm too complicated.

21 I am not challenging Mr. Vasic's right to ask the witness what

22 Vujic said to him, but then he puts the statement of another witness to

23 this witness, asking him whether that witness's statement would change his

24 view in terms of what Vujic had said to him. That is why I believe we're

25 entering the field of speculation.

Page 14768

1 JUDGE PARKER: I'm getting some glimpses of what you're concerned

2 about, Mr. Lukic, but I think at the moment, it's premature. If it

3 develops much further, we will have to intervene.

4 But for the moment, carry on, Mr. Vasic.

5 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. I'm about to

6 finish this topic.

7 Q. As for your conversation with Mr. Vujic, did you inform Mr. Muncan

8 or Colonel Petkovic about it the same day, straight away?

9 A. I informed Muncan -- now, whether Muncan informed Petkovic, I

10 don't know, but immediately upon arriving in Sid, he went to Petkovic's

11 for a briefing.

12 Q. Did you find out whether he briefed Petkovic about this

13 information that you had, namely that some government was establishing

14 some POW camp, as you had put it, in the zone of responsibility of the

15 1st Military District? Did Colonel Ljubisa Petkovic know about that?

16 A. I could not control my superior as to what it was he said during a

17 briefing. I don't know.

18 Q. Did you inform your superior in writing or orally?

19 A. Orally. Only when I have a direct conversation, then I compile a

20 note on that conversation or interview.

21 Q. The security of the 1st Military District, wouldn't it have to be

22 aware of this kind of fact, that on its territory the government of

23 Eastern Slavonia, Baranja, and Zapadni Srem is about to set up some POW

24 camp, wouldn't they have to know about that?

25 A. I don't know about that. I was not in charge and that was not my

Page 14769

1 line of work.

2 Q. Did you know that in November 1991, General Vlado Stojanovic

3 issued an order that no POW exchange can be carried out without his

4 approval? Were you familiarised with that order of the command of the

5 1st Military District?

6 A. I don't know what kind of work you are referring to because I

7 think that interviews were never prohibited.

8 Q. Obviously you didn't hear me well. I asked about exchanges. I

9 wasn't asking about work. Did you see an order issued by the command of

10 the 1st Military District prohibiting any POW exchanges without the

11 approval of General Vlado Stojanovic?

12 A. I have not seen this order. It was sufficient for me to have my

13 superiors see that because I did not engage in such exchanges of POWs

14 anyway.

15 Q. Thank you. You told us that later, when many left Velepromet,

16 that Vujic went to the barracks and you, with Muncan and others from the

17 group, went to Ovcara. Did I understand you right?

18 A. You understood me right. Vujic left a bit earlier. I stayed on

19 at Velepromet to wait for Muncan. He came -- well, pretty late, just

20 before it got dark. He came to pick me up, and from there we went

21 straight to Sid but we stopped by at Ovcara as well.

22 Q. Thank you. Tell me, when you went in the direction of Ovcara, did

23 you ask someone where this was, did you know? How did you find this

24 particular locality?

25 A. Somebody --

Page 14770

1 Q. I'm sorry, could you please go on.

2 A. I think Muncan knew or somebody in Velepromet told him that there

3 is this road that goes to the left when you pass the barracks. There is

4 this road that goes straight to Ovcara.

5 Q. Since you have mentioned Muncan now, did he tell you why they were

6 in barracks on that day? What were they doing there?

7 A. First of all, except for me and Vujic, both of these groups went

8 to Velepromet to help out there because there were still quite a few

9 people there and -- namely men, women, and children. When they finished

10 that and we came to Velepromet, we didn't find them there; they just told

11 us that they went to the barracks, but I didn't go there.

12 Q. Well, you didn't say that you were there, but did they tell you

13 why it was that they went to the barracks; what kind of business did they

14 have in the barracks, this group of yours; and were there any officers

15 there from the security administration group?

16 A. Well, I heard - Muncan told me about this later in the car - that

17 they all went there because they had been informed that the buses were

18 there and that there were some incidents caused by territorials, that they

19 were attacking these prisoners who were on the buses.

20 Q. Yesterday, you told us that these incidents were resolved, that

21 the buses were secured. Did they tell you how long the officers were at

22 the barracks, and were they there after the buses were secured and after

23 these incidents were resolved?

24 A. Well, he didn't tell me about these details. I know that they

25 stayed there, and they told me that the buses were secured and they went

Page 14771

1 in the direction of Ovcara. And then they thought that they had no

2 further work there.

3 Q. After the buses went to Ovcara, did they stay on in the barracks

4 or did they leave the barracks then? Did they tell you that?

5 A. No. No. They did not tell me exactly how much time they spent

6 where. I really have no idea.

7 Q. Did they tell you when the buses left the barracks for Ovcara?

8 A. No, they didn't tell me that either.

9 Q. And did they tell you why the buses went to Ovcara from the

10 barracks?

11 A. No, I did not hear of that reason either. We really weren't up to

12 talking. We hadn't slept for two days and, to tell you the truth, he

13 didn't tell me why they went to Ovcara; but he said we would stop by there

14 to see whether the conditions were right for any kind of interviews for

15 us.

16 Q. Before you went to Ovcara, did Mr. Muncan tell you whether the

17 group had been at Ovcara on that day? Had they gone there straight from

18 the barracks?

19 A. I don't understand you. What group?

20 Q. Sorry, maybe I'm not very clear. The group of officers including

21 Mr. Muncan and these other officers from the security administration. If

22 you know, did Mr. Muncan tell you whether they went from the barracks to

23 Ovcara before they came to you in Velepromet?

24 A. No, I think that Muncan first came when we came there together by

25 car.

Page 14772

1 Q. And do you know about the officers from the security

2 administration?

3 A. No, and I did not see Vujic afterwards or the officers from the

4 security administration.

5 Q. Can you tell us why you went to Ovcara that day at dusk, why your

6 group went there?

7 A. Muncan told us to go there to -- that we were going there to see

8 what the situation was like and whether we could have a few interviews

9 with some individuals from that group, and that was the only reason why we

10 went to Ovcara.

11 Q. That is one of the basic tasks involved in these interviews, to

12 see the status of persons who are possible perpetrators of criminal

13 offences; is that right?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. When you came to Ovcara, you said it was dark or dusk, rather.

16 You told us that you stayed in the car together with Mr. Radakovic; did I

17 understand you well?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Then, near the hangar, did you see a white Renault 4 and some JNA

20 officer in it?

21 A. No, there was no such vehicle there, that vehicle or any other

22 vehicle like ours.

23 Q. Did you know then that the prisoners were being guarded by the

24 military police of the 80th Motorised Brigade?

25 A. No. We had a pass for moving about throughout the territory, and

Page 14773

1 this was under the control of the military police.

2 Q. Just a small digression. When you came to Vukovar, did you hear

3 about the surrender of the Mitnica group on the 18th of November?

4 A. I heard something about that, but I don't know about the details.

5 I heard that these people were evacuated to Sremska Mitrovica; that's the

6 only thing I know.

7 Q. Were these people interviewed by persons from the security of the

8 1st Military District; do you know about that?

9 A. Our group was not involved in that.

10 Q. Do you know that these persons were at Ovcara between the 18th and

11 the 19th and that they were also guarded by the military police of the

12 80th Motorised Brigade?

13 A. I don't know about that.

14 Q. What did Mr. Muncan tell you when he returned, and how long did he

15 stay at the hangar?

16 A. I'm telling you that he stayed there for five or six minutes, then

17 he came back and he sort of waved his hand and said: There are no

18 conditions here for any interviews. It's getting dark. There is no

19 separate room anywhere. Let's go home to Sid. And there is time for

20 that.

21 Q. And can you tell us what that means, "And there is time for that."

22 Does that mean that interviews with these persons would be conducted some

23 other time or what?

24 A. That was my understanding of it.

25 Q. Did he tell you who he had talked to, who received him in the

Page 14774

1 hangar, whether he introduced himself to someone? Did he mention any such

2 thing?

3 A. He didn't say a word about that.

4 Q. Did he say who was in the hangar?

5 A. He said that the prisoners were in the hangar and that they were

6 standing or sitting by the walls throughout the hangar. That's the only

7 thing.

8 Q. Did he say that these persons were guarded, that they had some

9 guards guarding them there?

10 A. I saw policemen in front, but I don't know whether there was

11 anybody inside.

12 Q. Did he tell you whether they told him that these people would stay

13 on there for a triage to be carried out or that they would be sent

14 somewhere? Did Mr. Muncan, your superior, tell you any such thing at that

15 moment?

16 A. Muncan did not tell us anything else about these men or that

17 situation.

18 Q. Was your direct superior, Colonel Ljubisa Petkovic, informed about

19 this situation that same day when you arrived in Sid?

20 A. Muncan told us when he returned from the briefing that he had

21 informed Colonel Petkovic about everything.

22 Q. Did he share any details of that briefing with you?

23 A. No, he didn't.

24 Q. Do you know if Colonel Bogdan Vujic, on the 21st of November,

25 1991, went to see Colonel Petkovic with some sort of a presentation or did

Page 14775

1 he submit a report, or indeed anyone from Bogdan Vujic's group? Did you

2 know anything about that?

3 A. No.

4 Q. Thank you. Yesterday, you testified that up until March 1992 you

5 had been in Vukovar and had heard nothing about what had occurred at

6 Ovcara. Your task was to investigate crimes, to gather documents on any

7 crimes, and to conduct interviews. In your work, did you ever come across

8 the town commander Lieutenant-Colonel Milorad Vojinovic?

9 A. I don't really have such a good head for names, but yes, I was

10 once at the town command, as they called it. Truth to tell, I can't

11 remember the reason for my being there, but the answer is I must have seen

12 the lieutenant-colonel, if indeed that was the person who was the town

13 commander at the time.

14 Q. Mr. Korica, bearing in mind what my learned friend Mr. Lukic said

15 yesterday, do you perhaps want to have a break now? I am nearing the end

16 of my cross-examination. I am nearly there, but in view of your health, I

17 don't know what your choice would be.

18 A. The way I feel now, I think we can press ahead and have our break

19 at the usual time.

20 Q. Thank you. In that case, I would like to press on, since I am

21 close to the end.

22 In your work, did you have any contacts with the chief of security

23 of the 80th Motorised Brigade at the Vukovar town command,

24 Dragi Vukosavljevic?

25 A. Maybe two or three times, especially later on. We knew each other

Page 14776

1 quite well. I think he originally hailed from Kragujevacka Raca.

2 Q. That's quite correct. Throughout that time did you entertain any

3 contacts with Captain Vezmarovic, the commander of the military police

4 company of the 80th Motorised Brigade, who was also in charge of town

5 security in Vukovar?

6 A. I don't think so. I may have seen him or talked to him but

7 nothing special that I'd remember.

8 Q. Mr. Korica, did any of these persons ever tell you about what had

9 happened at Ovcara? I'm talking before March 1992, which is as long as

10 you were in the area. You were studying evidence and gathering evidence

11 about crimes that had occurred in that area, weren't you?

12 A. No one ever told me anything about Ovcara. All we knew, or at

13 least what we were told, was that those people had been sent away to

14 Sremska Mitrovica and that was where our responsibilities stopped.

15 Q. Mr. Korica, who was in charge of the Sremska Mitrovica prison or,

16 rather, this provisional POW camp that was set up where security officers

17 conducted interviews?

18 A. I don't know.

19 Q. Did you ever see an order by the security administration

20 appointing security officers from the 1st Military District to conduct

21 interviews at this camp together with officers from the security

22 administration? Did you ever find out that Mr. Bogdan Vujic was, in fact,

23 one of the interrogators at Sremska Mitrovica?

24 A. I knew that, but your question was did I ever see an order. The

25 answer is no, I never saw an order, but I did see the people.

Page 14777

1 Q. Did those people know that the POWs had been transported to

2 Sremska Mitrovica or indeed that they had ever got there, arrived in

3 Sremska Mitrovica?

4 A. I don't know, nor did I ask them. I drove one person to

5 Sremska Mitrovica one night. I surrendered him to Vujic, as well as the

6 bag. And that was as much as I knew about the people. But I did know the

7 people who worked there.

8 Q. Did your group, including Mr. Muncan, ever receive an assignment

9 from Mr. Ljubisa Petkovic to conduct an interview or submit a report in

10 relation to the group that you had toured at Ovcara the evening of

11 the 20th of November, 1991?

12 A. Not that I knew.

13 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Thank you very much, Mr. Korica. I

14 have no further questions for you.

15 Your Honours, this concludes my cross-examination.

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you too.

17 MR. BOROVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.

18 Examination by Mr. Borovic.

19 Q. [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Mr. Korica.

20 A. Good afternoon.

21 Q. You know that one of the accused in this case is the then-Captain

22 Miroslav Radic?

23 A. Miroslav who?

24 Q. Miroslav Radic?

25 A. Indeed.

Page 14778

1 Q. Thank you. On the 20th of November, 1991, you said there was a

2 triage; those captured at the hospital were being separated off or

3 selected. You gave a detailed account of which officers were involved in

4 that. Therefore, my first question: Throughout that process of selecting

5 prisoners and in the sense of ordering anything or assisting, was Miroslav

6 Radic, Captain Miroslav Radic, involved in this?

7 A. I don't remember ever seeing Miroslav Radic.

8 Q. Does that mean he wasn't involved in the so-called selection

9 process at the hospital?

10 A. I should assume so.

11 MR. BOROVIC: [Interpretation] That was my last question, Your

12 Honours. Thank you.

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

14 JUDGE PARKER: We could break now, Mr. Moore, or we could, it

15 seems, go on for about a quarter of an hour. What would be most

16 convenient?

17 MR. MOORE: I'm quite happy to continue for 15 minutes.

18 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you, Mr. Moore.

19 Cross-examination by Mr. Moore:

20 Q. Good afternoon, Mr. Korica, we meet again.

21 A. Good afternoon.

22 Q. Can I just ask you one or two little matters before we break.

23 Simply this: Clearly, I have listened to your evidence, and if one looks

24 at your evidence from the time you arrive in the Vukovar area until, let

25 us say, the 21st of November, so we're talking evening of the 19th, day of

Page 14779

1 the 20th, indeed we can leave it there, would it be right to say that the

2 only aggression or unpleasant act that you ever saw was from one person

3 and that was from a gentleman called Topola, and that everything else was

4 normal? Would that be a fair general summary of what you saw?

5 A. As for aggression, I think that might just be right; but nothing

6 there was pleasant or indeed normal, so much for that. As for aggressive

7 behaviour, or aggression, there were no acts of aggression, apart from

8 those committed by Topola.

9 Q. So you would agree with me, the only thing you ever saw was Topola

10 being aggressive. You saw nothing else that constituted aggression?

11 A. That's right.

12 Q. How long did you stay in the Velepromet facility on the evening of

13 the 19th?

14 A. I think on the 19th, I must have spent at least three hours at

15 Velepromet.

16 Q. And forgive me, it is my memory that fails with advancing years,

17 if one is talking about the time that you got there and the time you left,

18 what time are we talking about that you were at Velepromet?

19 A. I think we arrived at Velepromet at about half past 10.00 and were

20 back past 1.00, past midnight, back to Negoslavci.

21 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: The sound of typing

22 interferes with the witness's voice. Thank you.


24 Q. When we are talking about the Velepromet facility, it is not a

25 particularly big facility, is it?

Page 14780

1 A. Well, Velepromet was a wholesale agency or company. It was a

2 large area with agricultural machinery and that sort of thing. The

3 building itself is rather small. There were a number of hangars there,

4 but I didn't go there myself.

5 Q. So if one was talking about your brief or the task that you had

6 when you went to Velepromet, how would you describe your understanding of

7 the task at Velepromet that you were required to do?

8 A. What we were required to do was to help with evacuating those who

9 had arrived from the hospital as well as from elsewhere. The TO men were

10 bringing people in one-by-one. We were to help those people being

11 evacuated because they said the buses for their evacuation would soon be

12 there. They said we should go and speak to Stojanovic and to Captain

13 Borisavljevic.

14 Q. So if one looks at this in the round, would it be right to say

15 that your brief, your task, was to see how the situation was, because

16 apparently it was rather difficult and complicated; find out if you could

17 assist; and then report back to let everybody know what could or could not

18 be achieved. Would that be a fair way of assessing it?

19 A. It would, yes.

20 Q. I'll come back to Velepromet later on. I just want to inquire

21 about one other aspect of your evidence before the break. Do you remember

22 you told us that you were -- you had a briefing with Major Sljivancanin

23 when you first arrived at Negoslavci; do you remember that?

24 A. I never said that. I never said that we briefed Sljivancanin

25 anywhere at any time, nor did we. It was Sljivancanin who told us what we

Page 14781

1 were supposed to do on that particular day as well as the next day.

2 Q. Well, perhaps there's just a slight error in the translation.

3 What I'm talking about is a briefing from Sljivancanin to you on the

4 evening of the 19th at Negoslavci. Do you remember that? That is what

5 I'm referring to.

6 A. I do remember that, yes.

7 Q. I'm not trying to catch you out, Mr. Korica; I'm just trying to

8 clarify one or two matters.

9 In your evidence yesterday, you said the following: "Sljivancanin

10 told us that the main task for us for the following day, and that we would

11 be conducting screening in the hospital and that we would send some people

12 to Sremska Mitrovica. He said that it was because there were many people

13 there who had taken shelter in the hospital and didn't go to the

14 Velepromet compound when they were told that they could go there. He said

15 that there were some members of the ZNG, of the MUP, and that there were

16 war criminals who had taken shelter in the hospital and camouflaged

17 themselves in doctors' uniforms."

18 Now, that was what you said yesterday. Do you agree with that?

19 A. I do.

20 Q. And it went on, and this is at line 14726, or page 14726, line

21 18: "He said that those people needed to be separated and that everything

22 needed to be cleared at the hospital and prepared for the arrival of the

23 International Red Cross, so as to avoid any incident."

24 Now, I want to just deal with that last part because, again, these

25 are your words; I'm just reading them back. Do you understand?

Page 14782

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Was it your understanding that when he said, "These people needed

3 to be separated," that he was referring to the ZNG, MUP, and the criminals

4 who had taken shelter in the hospital?

5 A. My understanding was all those who weren't hospital staff had to

6 be separated off; therefore, this included the MUP and ZNG there, that

7 much is certain.

8 Q. No, I want to read back exactly your words: "He said that there

9 were some members of the ZNG, of the MUP, and that there were war

10 criminals who had taken shelter in the hospital and camouflaged themselves

11 in doctors' uniforms. He said that those people needed to be separated

12 and that everything needed to be cleared at the hospital and prepared for

13 the arrival of the International Red Cross."

14 So what I'm suggesting to you, when you look at your evidence and

15 what Mr. Sljivancanin has said to you, when he refers to "those people,"

16 it's the ZNG, the MUP, and the criminals who had taken shelter in the

17 hospital and had used doctors' clothing to camouflage themselves. That is

18 right, isn't it?

19 A. That is right. However, at the time, we had no time to ask who

20 was ZNG and who was MUP or whatever. This included those who weren't

21 hospital staff, who were not patients, and were not wounded. We just

22 separated them off and left the final triage for Sremska Mitrovica.

23 Q. Thank you for that. Now what I want to ask you is this: The

24 phrase that "they need to be separated," we've dealt with that, and that

25 "everything needed to be cleared at the hospital and prepared for the

Page 14783

1 arrival of the ICRC so as to avoid any incident." Now, those are your

2 words; they're not anything that I'm making up.

3 Can we take it that what you meant was that that selection

4 process, that triage was to be done before the arrival of the ICRC, so to

5 avoid any incident with them? That's right, isn't it?

6 A. Not only with them, but also about them.

7 Q. Well, can we deal with the two words. I'll deal with "with them."

8 So they had to be gone before them -- could you please not look at

9 Mr. Lukic. Can you just try and look at me for a moment. Thank you very

10 much.

11 A. Sure. Obliged.

12 Q. That's all right.

13 So the intention was that those people were to be selected before

14 the ICRC arrived, yes?

15 A. Correct.

16 Q. And so that was to avoid any incident, incident between the ICRC

17 and, I don't know, perhaps the JNA.

18 A. It probably wasn't just that.

19 Q. Well, then, so as to "avoid any incident." What do you mean by

20 "avoid any incident"? Doesn't that refer to the fact that the ICRC were

21 coming?

22 A. We knew the ICRC were coming, and nobody could have stopped them;

23 however, there were some extremists there as well as armed people, all

24 sorts of things. You had to have a look when the triage was being

25 conducted to see whether any weapons were concealed in the area, because

Page 14784

1 that is, after all, how we found the grenade.

2 Q. Can I just finish with this final question before the break.

3 There are ZNGs, Mr. Sljivancanin would say, there is the MUP, there are

4 the criminals; how can you select them without some points of reference?

5 How were you to choose those people? How were you to isolate those

6 people; can you tell me, please?

7 A. As I said, Sljivancanin did not share these specifics with us.

8 The important thing was to separate off all persons who weren't medical

9 staff or hospital staff. For example, if someone was a hospital driver,

10 they would have had some sort of a document to show for that. The

11 hospital staff were the only ones allowed to stay at the hospital as well

12 as the wounded with whom we had no contact at all, because it was the

13 military doctors who were in charge of that, who, as far as I heard, at

14 the time, had arrived from Novi Sad.

15 As for everything else, all those other people remaining who were

16 outside those two boxes or categories included the MUP, the criminals,

17 those who perpetrated crimes and evil-doers, but their triage was to take

18 place at Sremska Mitrovica.

19 Q. I said "the last question"; it's always fatal for a barrister to

20 say last question.

21 If they were going to Sremska Mitrovica, isn't it normal to take a

22 list of people who you collect so that when you are transporting them and

23 at hand-over, you have a list of names for people going out and that same

24 list to take them off at the other end. That's right, I think, isn't it?

25 A. Maybe that's what we should have done, but the order we received

Page 14785

1 was to write things down. Maybe there was somebody else at a different

2 stage when those persons were being searched or placed on the buses, maybe

3 somebody should have written things down there, but this is not something

4 that I know anything at all about.

5 MR. MOORE: All right. We'll resume, with His Honour's leave, at

6 an appropriate time.

7 JUDGE PARKER: We will have a 20-minute break now and resume at

8 ten past 4.00.

9 The court officer will help you out, Mr. Korica.

10 --- Recess taken at 3.50 p.m.

11 --- On resuming at 4.12 p.m.

12 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Moore.


14 Q. Mr. Korica, may I just deal with the start of your evidence, and

15 I'll try and deal with it sequentially, A followed by B. You've told us

16 that when the group was created, for example, there was Tomic, Stosic,

17 Kijanovic, yourself and others, I think -- did you travel by two cars to

18 Sid?

19 A. I travelled with Muncan, and that group of ours that came before

20 them came only for this situation; and I was in this group of Muncan's

21 before. They did not go with us. They took their own car. And, as far

22 as I heard later, they stopped by in Negoslavci. We didn't stop by

23 anywhere. We went directly to Sid.

24 Q. I know this is a dreadful generalisation, but might it be right to

25 say that sometimes when you're dealing with officers, they don't always

Page 14786

1 tell you what's going on; would that be right?

2 A. That was not the case in our service. We all do our own job and

3 we don't meddle with anybody else's jobs. As for the normal relationship

4 between a senior officers and NCOs, there was no such distinction. We did

5 know a lot of things that they were supposed to know but we weren't, we

6 still knew a lot of those things.

7 Q. We call that in English the "grape-vine." You tended to know

8 unofficially what was happening; is that what you're saying?

9 A. [No verbal response]

10 Q. Could you just say yes so it goes on the record? You nodded your

11 head, you see.

12 A. No, I didn't really understand what you said.

13 Q. All right. With your group, you tended to exchange information;

14 would that be a fair way of putting it?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. And the exchange of information, is one of the reasons why you

17 exchanged such information because it helps other members of that group

18 understand what the problems or difficulties might be?

19 A. First of all, we would report to our superior, except in certain

20 cases; but usually, we all reported together. We would be in the same

21 room and we would submit reports as to what we did on that day, so that

22 others would know what each and every one of us did within that group.

23 Q. And if there were difficulties for one member of the group, they

24 would tend to tell the other members to help them understand the problems;

25 would that be correct?

Page 14787

1 A. Well, it can be put that way.

2 Q. Can I deal with Sid for a moment. Can I suggest that the

3 instructions that were given by Babic at that time was that your group

4 were not to take over any command responsibility?

5 A. I did not even know that Babic was in Sid, and I don't know what

6 kind of instructions he gave. Otherwise, we did not have any kind of

7 command of that sort -- command responsibility, that is, in our service

8 even before that and not then.

9 Q. So can we just agree -- as I say, I'm not trying to catch you out

10 in any way at all. Wherever it came from, there was a view that one

11 should not take over any command responsibility; would that be a fair way

12 of putting it?

13 A. Well, I don't know, since we did not have any command

14 responsibility. We did not have any command powers and, therefore, we did

15 not have any command responsibility.

16 THE INTERPRETER: Could other microphones please be switched off

17 while the witness is speaking the interpreters note. Thank you.

18 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Lukic.

19 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I don't want to disturb this line of

20 questioning, but I think that when the Prosecutor asked about what Babic

21 had said, when he mentioned Sid, I don't know whether it was clear to the

22 witness because when the witness spoke during the first part, the only

23 time he mentioned Babic was in Belgrade. If that's what the Prosecutor

24 wanted to clarify so that there wouldn't be any confusion, as Mr. Moore

25 said himself, maybe it would be good if he said what conversation he meant

Page 14788

1 between Colonel Babic and the witness, just to have things perfectly

2 clear. That is what I wish to say.

3 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you.

4 Yes, Mr. Moore.

5 MR. MOORE: Your Honour, I can move on in relation to this. So

6 the witness has said that they didn't have any command responsibility.

7 Q. Did you understand that your task was to separate groups as

8 opposed to not performing a triage?

9 A. Well, my understanding was that this was a general triage or an

10 initial triage, not a detailed triage because there weren't the right

11 conditions for that and there wasn't enough time either. Not only

12 separation, because separation had already been carried out. The doctors

13 were on one side and the hospital staff. Others went -- had already gone

14 out because they were told that they could go to Velepromet straight away.

15 As for the remaining people there, those who were camouflaged as

16 the sick or the wounded or who were introducing themselves in different

17 ways so as to be able to leave with the convoy, well that is what we were

18 supposed to deal with.

19 Q. But what I'm trying to get at is before you actually get to

20 Negoslavci, that in actual fact, there was a belief that the task was to

21 separate, very generally, not to perform - your words - a specific

22 triage. Would that be right? Would that be a fair way of putting it?

23 A. It can be put that way because Mr. Sljivancanin told us that

24 Vesna Bosanac would help us in that, who was supposed to make a list of

25 the hospital staff. Since that had not been done, then we were supposed

Page 14789

1 to do that, or rather, this was done by the doctors and Mr. Sljivancanin.

2 I think that Vesna Bosanac was there as well. Then after that separation,

3 we carried out a triage of the rest.

4 Q. Can I deal with the meeting with Mr. Mrksic. I just want to deal

5 with that topic now.

6 You told us that Mr. Mrksic spoke for approximately half an hour;

7 you remember saying that?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. And he was indicating to you in general terms, the military

10 situation and situation that existed at that time within his zone of

11 responsibility; would that be correct?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Do you remember an incident occurring through that briefing when,

14 I believe, a young officer came in and explained to Colonel Mrksic that, I

15 think, there had been three young soldiers killed recently; do you

16 remember that?

17 A. I remember that well.

18 Q. Can you just remind us exactly what you remember occurring on that

19 matter?

20 A. I think it was the duty officer who entered or the operations

21 officer who was on duty. He came to Colonel Mrksic and said, Colonel, one

22 of our vehicles hit a mine and three soldiers got killed. Mr. Mrksic

23 replied to him, Put that in the graph and later on we will talk.

24 Q. Would it be right to say that Mr. Mrksic, in very general terms,

25 indicated what was required at Velepromet and the hospital, but the person

Page 14790

1 who was going to deal with it specifically was Mr. Sljivancanin, and

2 that's why you had to wait for him?

3 A. Mr. Mrksic told us about the general situation and about the

4 situation in his zone of responsibility and in his unit, and the problems,

5 and how many wounded there were, and how many persons were killed. It was

6 a high number. As for the hospital and Velepromet, he said some things in

7 general terms, that some people had already left the hospital and had gone

8 to Velepromet. But with regard to all of this work, Mr. Sljivancanin

9 would tell us about that in detail.

10 Q. Do you know why Mr. Sljivancanin was telling you that information

11 in detail?

12 A. Well, because we came there to do that, so that we would

13 familiarise ourselves with it.

14 Q. I'm sorry. Maybe it's the way I phrased the question, but why was

15 it necessary -- or why was Mr. Sljivancanin telling you the details? What

16 role was he playing?

17 A. Well, we knew that Mr. Sljivancanin was the security organ of the

18 brigade and, for the most part, these were police and security tasks that

19 we were supposed to carry out in the hospital and in Velepromet, so that

20 is why we all came there, as a reinforcement, to help him carry out these

21 tasks.

22 Q. Again, trying to be fair about it, would it be right to say that

23 your understanding was that Mr. Mrksic had delegated the responsibility

24 for the evacuation to Mr. Sljivancanin, and that's why he was explaining

25 in detail?

Page 14791

1 A. Well, I don't know what they had agreed upon. It is only natural

2 that this should be done by the security and the police and everyone knows

3 who they are subordinated to. Both the security and police are

4 subordinated to the commander of the brigade.

5 MR. MOORE: I think that Mr. Lukic wanted to ...

6 JUDGE PARKER: The moment's passed, Mr. Moore.

7 MR. MOORE: I'm terribly sorry.

8 Q. Can you just explain to me what you mean by: "This is the sort of

9 work that the security organ would do normally." Can you explain that to

10 me in a little more detail for my understanding?

11 A. Well, basically it's not only the security organ that was working

12 there. We came to help him. As for that part of the work in the hospital

13 then, it was practically Colonel Vujic who was in charge. He was the

14 ranking officer. But in terms of the professional line of work and his

15 familiarity with the situation, it was only natural for Mr. Sljivancanin

16 to do the work that he did with the doctors from Novi Sad, too. So the

17 physicians were involved in that. The police were providing security

18 outside, the police were carrying out searches, and it was the security

19 organ who was in charge of the police, according to the professional line

20 of work, and the commander was in command.

21 Q. What happens when a commander delegates his authority to a

22 person? Does that person then take over the responsibilities of the

23 commander? Can you just explain that to me.

24 A. I did not have such an opportunity, but perhaps it would be

25 natural for him to take over the responsibilities as well if the authority

Page 14792

1 to command had been transferred or delegated. It is one thing to work

2 along the professional line, and it's a different thing to command. I

3 don't know whether Mr. Sljivancanin commanded this entire operation or

4 not, and I don't know what authority was transferred to him or delegated

5 to him.

6 Q. Can I take you on in time to the trip in the vehicle from

7 Negoslavci to the hospital. Can I just focus on that period.

8 Mr. Sljivancanin was in the vehicle with you then; isn't that

9 right?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. And you told us that he had informed you, as a group, what the

12 tasks were to be; you remember saying that?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Can you just expand that. Can you just tell us what you mean by

15 that. When you talk about tasks, what are you referring to? Forgive me,

16 I don't quite understand.

17 A. Well, he said what the basic task was that we were supposed to

18 carry out. He explained some things in greater detail while in the

19 vehicle, who would do what. So he told us that there would be quite a bit

20 of work because there would be very little assistance coming from

21 Vesna Bosanac as the director of the hospital, so that we would have some

22 difficulty.

23 He would have a meeting with them, and make it possible for the

24 hospital staff to be separated from others who are not hospital staff and

25 who are not wounded; they would go to the other side. And once that is

Page 14793

1 done, then we would come in. We would take people outside, those who had

2 stayed behind and do not belong to this remaining group of hospital staff

3 and the wounded. Then we took all such persons out. That is what he

4 briefly explained to us in the vehicle.

5 Q. You used the phrase: "We would come in." Who's the "we"? Is

6 that yourself and Bogdan Vujic?

7 A. I think it's me and Bogdan Vujic -- well, it's not that I think.

8 That is the way it is.

9 Q. So how did Mr. Vujic react to being told what he had to be -- do

10 by a major? Did he accept what was being said?

11 A. Fully. It wasn't some order, it was sort of -- well, the man who

12 knew the situation in the hospital the best. It was only natural for him

13 to say how it would best be done. It doesn't have to be in the form of an

14 order; it can be in the form of a proposal, how something can be done

15 successfully. So I did not see any reaction on Bogdan Vujic's part.

16 Q. So it's not an order, but it's a proposal that has the same

17 effect?

18 A. The effect is the same.

19 Q. Can I then go back in time to you coming to Mrksic, he giving you

20 the general material, and then Mr. Sljivancanin coming, I think about half

21 an hour. I'm sorry for taking you out of sequence, but I had to do it for

22 really continuity.

23 When Mr. Mrksic said to you for you to sit there and wait for

24 Sljivancanin about the tasks, what did you understand by the phrase

25 "tasks" that were to be done?

Page 14794

1 A. Well, I don't know whether the word was "zaduzenja," as in tasks,

2 but we waited for Sljivancanin to inform us in greater detail about what

3 it was that we were supposed to do.

4 Q. I want to move on. I'm going to leave that area for the moment -

5 I may come back - but I want to move on to the arrival at Velepromet

6 itself, all right? So you went there by car. And forgive me, it is my

7 memory, I think you said you were there from about 10.00 until 1.00. If I

8 got that wrong, that's my fault, not yours. But was Borisavljevic

9 expecting you?

10 A. I think so. I don't know specifically, because Bogdan Vujic

11 arrived earlier on.

12 Q. Mr. Sljivancanin clearly had mentioned Velepromet. I don't know

13 if you are aware - and there is no dispute about the matter - but

14 Borisavljevic is subordinated to Sljivancanin, he's a member of the

15 security organ; did you know that?

16 A. I didn't know that. That evening, I didn't know that it was the

17 security.

18 Q. Borisavljevic is a member of the security organ -- or was a member

19 of the security organ at the time you went to Velepromet. There won't be

20 any dispute about that.

21 So you weren't aware that the security organ were there at that

22 time. You thought he was just a JNA officer; would that be right?

23 A. Yes, you're right.

24 Q. Does it surprise you that Mr. Borisavljevic is a member of the

25 security organ?

Page 14795

1 A. Now I'm not surprised.

2 Q. Would you have been surprised that night, however?

3 A. Well, maybe I wouldn't have. In that big commotion, it's very

4 hard to find one's way. He wanted to be everywhere, to help out

5 everywhere. Wherever somebody would be hurt, he would be there. So it

6 wasn't easy to conclude anything different about him rather than -- that

7 he made an effort to do good things there.

8 Q. You've told us that Borisavljevic and Vujic had had a discussion.

9 Did you see Tomic and Kijanovic at Velepromet at the start?

10 A. At the start, I did. I saw the entire group. But I didn't know

11 at the start who was Tomic, who was Vujanovic [as interpreted], and who

12 was this fourth person. And when I came, they had already been at this

13 meeting where I had not been. That meeting was attended by Ljubinko

14 Stojanovic, at that office there, because he needed some vehicle,

15 whatever, he went to that office; and that meeting was over quickly and

16 they went out. That's when I saw them.

17 Q. So you were aware of Tomic and you were aware, perhaps later, I

18 don't know, of Kijanovic; is that right?

19 A. I knew because they were at Mr. Mrksic's; we were all there

20 together at Mr. Mrksic's. I know them from there.

21 Q. As far as you could see, they were also going around Velepromet

22 attempting to assist and assess the situation; would that be right?

23 A. You know something, you know what the situation was like over

24 there, what one could see what was happening in that clearing at

25 Velepromet outside those buildings, it's quite a large area, in fact. By

Page 14796

1 night, there was no light there, so someone going behind the hangar and

2 walking around Velepromet would have been sheer madness. Night-time is

3 night-time, and the war was never over for us -- day-time is day-time,

4 sure thing.

5 Q. So therefore, anybody walking around in night-time, was not always

6 easy to see; is that really what you're saying?

7 A. I'm saying that too, but I'm also saying that even we didn't dare

8 go there, into that darkness.

9 Q. I know this may seem a strange question, but why didn't you, as a

10 JNA officer, dare to go into the darkness at Velepromet? Can you just

11 help me a little with that.

12 A. I certainly can. Throughout my time in the area, it was forbidden

13 to move about at night - and this applied to us and to all other persons

14 there - to prevent any confusion at check-points or with soldiers on duty,

15 because they might simply be startled into causing a severe or serious

16 incident.

17 Therefore, the decision was to not move about at night, not in

18 vehicles, not on foot, not outside, wherever you were, in a manner of

19 speaking.

20 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note, could we please again ask

21 for all the other microphones to remain off while the witness is

22 speaking. Thank you.


24 Q. So if one looks at the Velepromet complex, were there areas that

25 you could go that were reasonably illuminated but other areas where it was

Page 14797

1 black and, as a matter of policy, you did not go; would that be a fair way

2 of putting it?

3 A. The court-yard - the area between the buildings - was illuminated,

4 but there was no illumination whatsoever behind those buildings or in the

5 surrounding area. It was pitch black over there, and it was better not to

6 go there so that no misfortune befell you, unless you had a reason to go.

7 Q. You've told us that you were there for approximately three hours,

8 and I had prefaced the fact at the very start that you had only ever seen

9 the attitude of Topola. Would it surprise you that Mr. Kijanovic reported

10 that the TO threatened officers and people on the bus and that a gun was

11 pulled out by Topola, Skorpion, and placed in Kijanovic's chest?

12 A. I don't know about that. I do not know of that incident and I

13 don't know where it was that it took place. As for people complaining, I

14 wouldn't really say that any serious threats were uttered; but there were

15 complaints being made but those people and they were coming over to speak

16 to us, in the sense of telling us that we were there protecting those

17 people who were there or who had been brought over. Whether they wanted

18 to settle accounts with them or not is not something that I can say, but I

19 didn't see anything like that happening. Had there been anything like

20 that happening and we noticed, we certainly would have stopped it.

21 Q. Are you aware that we have had evidence from witnesses at the very

22 early part of this trial who gave evidence about being held at Velepromet

23 on the night of the 19th? Were you aware of that fact? Have you been

24 told by anyone? We're not talking about JNA soldiers; we're talking about

25 people who were actually held there. Now, were you aware of people giving

Page 14798

1 such evidence?

2 A. I'm not aware of such evidence being given. I know that there

3 were people there, even later on. At that time, I found out that several

4 people were being held in a room. I'm not sure about the size of that

5 group. I do know that it was a small room. It's the same room in which I

6 informed Bogdan Vujic about the presence of drunken TO men yelling and

7 making a lot of noise.

8 One of the group was this man nicknamed Topola. He must hail from

9 the town of Topola, I suppose. Bogdan Vujic did go there. I wasn't with

10 him, but I do know that he brought back a person from that room, someone

11 who was injured with blood on his forehead. He brought him to that office

12 and asked for Borisavljevic to come over and assist that person.

13 This was the principal reason that the drunken TO men were

14 complaining for, but this was certainly the only instance in which I

15 actually saw blood at Velepromet.

16 Q. We had a witness, a man called Josip Covic, and he was taken to

17 Velepromet around 10.00 or 11.00 that night - the night you were there and

18 at the time you were there - and he said the following, let's see if this

19 assists whether you saw anything occurring.

20 He was asked: "Were you placed inside or outside a hangar at this

21 time; can you remember?"

22 And he replied this -- in this way: "I remember it very well. I

23 was in front of the hangar, as I was one of the people separated. We were

24 lined up, and the local civilians passed next to our group pointing at

25 certain people; and those people would then be taken behind the hangar

Page 14799

1 some 50 metres away to Ciglana and they were killed there."

2 Now, the reason I ask you, obviously it's Velepromet. It's a

3 lining outside. But I want to ask you before we go any further, about

4 "local civilians passing next to our group." Did you see local civilians

5 assist in the identification of people, can you remember?

6 A. From the time we arrived at Velepromet to the time we left, there

7 were no such groups passing by or through.

8 Q. Can I suggest a slight rephrasing of that reply, that you were

9 aware of. You can only talk about what you are aware of, that's right,

10 not whether it was occurring or not in other places; that's right, isn't

11 it?

12 A. I think I can afford to be positive is some things for the simple

13 reason that I spent all of the time outside within the perimeter, on the

14 ground, as it were. As for any civilians arriving, particularly groups,

15 this is definitely not something that I saw at the time, and I think I can

16 be quite confident about this. One thing I'm perfectly confident about is

17 that no killings occurred at a distance of a mere 50 metres from

18 Velepromet. I am sure I would have heard that happening. Certainly not

19 during the time that we were there.

20 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Lukic.

21 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I assume that the record will be set

22 straight because the answer appears to be the same thing as the question.

23 If I look at the transcript -- line 4, page 50 is where the answer begins

24 but since I'm interrupting Mr. Moore - but I didn't mean to interrupt him

25 because of this - there was something that we had as a rule and this

Page 14800

1 applied and obtained throughout the OTP case, please let's not name any

2 names and especially not "witnesses" -- this is something that we adhered

3 to throughout the OTP case whenever they had any objections to raise.


5 Q. I want to deal with that same witness, the evidence that he gave.

6 He said -- this is before the lining up: "Before that, there was a crime

7 that took place. One of the civilians pointed out a young man. He said

8 that his name was Kemo. I'm not absolutely certain, but it was a nickname

9 of sorts, and he called two Chetniks to come. They came and they slit his

10 throat in front of us."

11 So I want to deal with that. I will go on, if I may, because

12 there's a question and answer, in fairness to you. He then goes on to

13 say - and it's at T3445, to assist the Court - "I told this person called

14 Kemo that a civilian had come by. I recognised three civilians. There

15 was one civilian who pointed out that particular young man - and this one

16 I don't know - it was a lady who pointed him out. At this point, a TO man

17 came along, came up to this young man, and he called over two Chetniks,

18 two of Seselj's men who were wearing the full Chetnik attire. They had

19 cockades on their fur caps. One of them wore the military kind and

20 supported a long beard. There was a bottle containing some sort of drink

21 sticking out of his pocket. He had knives on him, too, as well as an

22 automatic rifle. They slit this young man's throat right in front of us.

23 They gave him short shrift. The young man just lay there for 15 minutes."

24 Now, I want to deal with three or four aspects of that evidence

25 for you. Did you at any time see people referred to as Chetniks, to -- of

Page 14801

1 Seselj's men who were wearing the full Chetnik attire? Did you ever see

2 anyone at Velepromet, as far as you can remember, who were wearing the

3 full Chetnik attire? If you can't remember, just say you can't remember.

4 A. What I do know is that in the group that I informed Colonel Vujic

5 about, there were drunken people wearing Chetnik uniforms and cockades.

6 That is one thing that I know, but I heard nothing about anything like

7 that happening even before our arrival. This is the first time I've ever

8 heard that anyone's throat was slit at Velepromet. If indeed such a thing

9 ever occurred, that was certainly before our arrival. But let me tell you

10 one thing, I never heard of this happening at all, and the description

11 would seem to fit Topola, to some extent; but then on the other hand, what

12 do I know?

13 Q. They had cockades on their fur caps. Did you see people with fur

14 caps and with cockades?

15 A. Yes, I did.

16 Q. It also said: "He had knives on him," and I suspect knives were

17 fairly common, "as well as an automatic rifle." Did you see people there

18 at Velepromet who had automatic rifles, from memory?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Can you let us know, just generally, how many people that you saw

21 had perhaps automatic rifles? More than ten, or is it difficult to

22 remember?

23 A. The group that I saw, I don't think there were more than ten;

24 secondly, I didn't really focus on what sort of weapons they were

25 carrying. All were armed, and some even had knives tucked into their

Page 14802

1 boots.

2 Q. I just -- I just want to deal with that same witness, some other

3 evidence that he gave. The question was this: "When these people were

4 taken away," I was talking about the people being taken away and shot -

5 you have referred to the use of a silencer being used, because there was a

6 suggestion of a silencer maybe being used. "When these people were being

7 taken away, did you at any time hear gun-fire coming from the area where

8 they were taken to?

9 "A. Yes, I did hear gun-fire. This gun-fire continued

10 throughout practically. There were lulls. And that would last two or

11 three minutes and then the firing would start again. It was like this

12 throughout, at least for as long as I was still at Velepromet."

13 Now, would that be the sort of thing that you remember, hearing

14 gun-fire? I'm not saying where it's directed. I'm just saying gun-fire

15 throughout with lulls. Does that agree with your memory?

16 A. I saw the TO men and I saw our own men too, but nobody had

17 silencers; and I heard no shots being fired anywhere near those

18 facilities, and I am positive about that.

19 Q. Again, I'll try and deal with this briefly. This same witness

20 said about two Chetniks, they were some distance away, and they came up

21 and started punching him. And he says the following: "At this point, to

22 my great fortune, another JNA officer emerged from somewhere, called those

23 two over, and ordered them to join him in an order to go and do a job."

24 Now, I'm asking whether, in actual fact, you saw anyone being

25 punched by Chetniks?

Page 14803

1 A. I didn't, and I don't know who took them away.

2 Q. This is another witness, it's 007 at T4028. This relates, if my

3 memory serves me correctly, to the area, the court-yard area. I may be

4 wrong, but I don't think I am. All right. And what he said is

5 this: "During the transfer from Vupik," which was an area there, "to

6 Velepromet, we were taken to a wall which is on the left side next to the

7 Velepromet entrance. More people were being brought in from all

8 directions. After a certain amount of time, not too long afterwards, I

9 was summoned by a man called Miko Jankovic, a former waiter in Vukovar,

10 from a group, and he told me to stand a little bit to the side. A young

11 man stood next to me; I knew him from Ilok. He was a police officer in

12 Vukovar at that time and he then gave his name.

13 "Jankovic took him out from that group also and told him to stand

14 next to me, next to that wall. After a certain amount of time, he cursed

15 him, cursed his mother, and he then" -- or sorry, "then he hit him on the

16 face with the barrel of his rifle. Blood started to show on his face, and

17 then they took him off somewhere and I never saw him again."

18 Now, this is the area that is in the court-yard area. Did you see

19 anything like that occur, or might it have happened at some other time?

20 A. I think this must have occurred before our arrival. Once we

21 arrived, no persons were being brought into Velepromet from outside. If

22 indeed this ever occurred, it must have been prior to our arrival, but I

23 simply don't know.

24 Q. That's the second time you have said "if this ever occurred." Do

25 you have an element of doubt that there were severe beatings in the

Page 14804

1 Velepromet area, bearing in mind you'd been there afterwards for about

2 three months?

3 A. I can't rule out the possibility. I am just telling you I don't

4 know.

5 Q. This same witness, 007 -- you were asked by Mr. Lukic about the

6 atmosphere at Velepromet as you remember it. This was a question that was

7 asked of the same witness that I've just mentioned.

8 "Q. What was the atmosphere like in Velepromet at that time when

9 you came in?

10 "A. It's very difficult to describe it verbally. There was panic

11 and fear in the air. Sounds of shooting could be heard from the moment I

12 arrived throughout. This shooting - what should I call it? There was

13 shooting all over the place. There was celebratory fire." That means

14 celebrations. "People firing into the air and other people firing. I

15 didn't know why they were firing. You could hear screams, women screaming

16 for the most part: Bring back my this or my that, because they were

17 taking people away and women were crying. It was a scene of utter chaos."

18 MR. LUKIC: I object.

19 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Lukic.

20 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] The witness is being asked to comment

21 and describe the situation, and the fact is we don't know when the witness

22 was there and when he described the situation at Velepromet. I mean no

23 time-line is indicated. Really, if he's being asked to comment on another

24 person's evidence, we must know that this is in relation to a point in

25 time when this particular witness was there. It wasn't my intention to

Page 14805

1 explain the answer, but I think this is a very tall order for this

2 witness.

3 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you, Mr. Lukic. He seems to be well in

4 control and command of the situation, nevertheless.

5 Mr. Moore, are you able to indicate whether this scene occurred

6 coincidently in time or not?

7 MR. MOORE: This was the 19th, the night of the 19th. It's at

8 T4033. I hope that assists my learned friend.

9 Q. Can I just ask you then about this matter. He says it's difficult

10 to describe verbally. Panic, was there panic? Could that be a fair word?

11 A. Panic, yes, there was panic even when we arrived, but things were

12 more quiet in a way already. There was commotion. There was a

13 confusion. There were territorials there, women, children, elderly, and

14 those people had already been taken away to the hangars. Whatever

15 happened must have happened prior to our arrival, but then again different

16 perspectives are possible as well as different interpretations.

17 Q. Was it a scene of utter chaos? That's the phrase he uses.

18 A. Maybe at the outset there was utter chaos. Once we arrived, it

19 was no longer chaos. As I say, people had already been separated off,

20 those people who had been attacked by the TO men or whoever was there, but

21 that was cleared up by the time we arrived; and the only people left were

22 the TO men and ourselves until the time the buses arrived.

23 Q. I want to just move on a little bit quicker, if I may. This same

24 witness described hearing firing outside the room, what is being called

25 sometimes the room of death. He described firing just outside the door of

Page 14806

1 that building and phrases like: "'He's getting away. He's getting away.

2 Catch him quickly.' After a while a door opened, a young man was thrown

3 or pushed into the building, both his legs were bleeding."

4 Now, the time that he puts is around about 9.00 -- he says 9.00,

5 half past 9.00, at the latest, that he was then told he would be

6 executed. Did you hear in anybody trying to run off and shots occurring,

7 or might that have occurred before you arrived also?

8 A. Well, I am certain it could only have happened before my arrival.

9 We arrived later on; however, I never heard a single shot fired at

10 Velepromet for as long as I was there. Therefore, this could only have

11 been earlier on.

12 Q. And this is the final witness I want to deal with, and I can deal

13 with it fairly quickly. It's P032, it's T2965 and he says -- the question

14 is asked and here is the reply: "Now, can we come back to Velepromet.

15 You said, I believe, that you were taken to the room of death. Why was it

16 called the room of death?

17 "A. When we arrived at Velepromet, they took us straight there.

18 They searched us, they beat us a little, and then they threw us into that

19 room.

20 "Q. How many people eventually were put into this room,

21 roughly?

22 "A. Between 50 and 60 persons.

23 "Q. And roughly, how long did you stay in this room?

24 "A. Three days."

25 Now that is starting on the 19th. Obviously you are not there,

Page 14807

1 20th -- or perhaps 21st, but did you see people being searched and taken

2 away, perhaps searched and being beaten? Did you see that occur?

3 A. I didn't see any such thing, but there was constant work there

4 because people were brought to Velepromet later on as well; but for

5 somebody to be beaten, abused or killed, I didn't even hear about that

6 from anyone because the situation had already been regulated, the relevant

7 service and the police and there was some kind of reception desk there

8 too. So at that reception desk, people knew who was who and where people

9 were supposed to go. I really don't know about such cases, and I'm

10 surprised that I don't know about that room.

11 THE INTERPRETER: The witness said something about three days, but

12 the interpreters could not hear him.


14 Q. Well, the question was: "What sounds or anything did you hear

15 when people left the room?

16 "A. There was a police officer there."

17 Did you see a police officer at any time?

18 "He was sitting inside a room when we came; he had a gashing

19 wound across his face inflicted by a knife. He said he had been

20 interrogated and his face was slashed by a knife."

21 Do you know if there were interviews or interrogations at

22 Velepromet, just generally? Do you know that? Do you know if there were

23 interviews or interrogations?

24 A. I don't know about that. We would have conducted the first

25 interviews. We had other things to do. We dealt with Velepromet at the

Page 14808

1 time, but when the situation was taken care of, we did not come to

2 Velepromet again.

3 Q. They refer to gurgling and then nothing else, but can I just go

4 back to your answer. Are you saying that you did do interviews or

5 interrogation within that three-hour period? I'm sorry, it's my fault,

6 not yours, for not understanding.

7 A. No, we did not have official interviews with anyone or

8 interrogations. We were supervising the situation and we would exchange a

9 few words with someone, but that was not an interview, an interrogation,

10 or interviews as we called them, "informativni razgovor."

11 Q. What was the purpose then of those brief interviews that you had?

12 A. Well, for the most part to see who was in this Velepromet, so I

13 had these brief conversations with territorials as well so that there

14 wouldn't be any incidents. We did our best not to have any incidents

15 taking place, so the situation was quite calm. I'm really surprised by

16 some things.

17 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: Could all other microphones

18 please be switched off when the witness speaks. Thank you.


20 Q. Were you aware that local people or TOs, as I call them, were

21 being used at various times in Vukovar to assess or to help in identifying

22 who was who?

23 A. Later, yes. Later, yes.

24 Q. You see, we have a document - I think it is the 9th of October but

25 I can't swear on it - where it refers to Borisavljevic being - and I'll

Page 14809

1 try and use a neutral word - being at Velepromet to manage the selection

2 procedure with local individuals assisting him in the identification of

3 persons. Now, I can get the document if need be.

4 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I think it would be fair, if it's

5 being brought up, to show the actual document, to read what it says

6 because this is just an interpretation.

7 MR. MOORE: I was trying to do it for speed, but I have got it

8 here so it can help. It's the 10th of November, my apologies.

9 So could we have Exhibit 835, please, for the B/C/S, and I have

10 got the English.

11 Q. Mr. Korica, you are going to have the benefit of electronic

12 wizardry and have a document come up on your screen. Now do you see it

13 there in front of you in B/C/S?

14 A. I see it.

15 Q. If we just look at the top left-hand corner, it's the 10th of

16 November, 1991. Now, you are most welcome to read the whole document if

17 you want, but I, for my part, really only want to deal with the second

18 paragraph. And it really should commence: "A centre for the admission of

19 civilians and preservation of material goods." Have you got that

20 particular paragraph? So it starts: "A centre for the admission of

21 civilians and preservation of material goods."

22 Do you see that?

23 A. I'm reading that.

24 Q. I'll read it out so that nobody's disadvantaged.

25 "A centre for the admission of civilians and preservation of

Page 14810

1 material goods, Vukovar Group South has been set up within the offices of

2 Velepromet, which is directly managed by Srecko Borisavljevic, First Class

3 Captain, from the Guards Motorised Brigade security organ. Our first

4 mechanism for finding extremists and possible disguised members of the MUP

5 and the ZNG. The head of the centre, Ljubinko Stojanovic, businessman

6 from Petrova Gora, who is otherwise a security organ source who was given

7 detailed instruction in work on security matters when he came to

8 Belgrade."

9 This is the important part -- well, this is the part I want to

10 concentrate on: "Six persons from various Vukovar local communes are

11 continuously employed at the centre which facilitates the identification

12 of local people. We have put in a request to have the number of staff at

13 the centre increased and improve the security system and the control of

14 movement in the liberated part of the town."

15 Now, you're most welcome to read the rest of it if you wish, but

16 what I'm trying to suggest to you is that we have a document where it says

17 that it is Borisavljevic and that there are local people being used for

18 identification purposes.

19 Now, having seen that document, were you aware that at Velepromet,

20 local people were being used to identify ZNG, MUP, and other parties?

21 A. I see that, and it seems normal to me, natural to me.

22 Q. Would you mind if I came back to the question and repeated it?

23 Were you aware that that was what was happening, being normal or not?

24 A. I don't know whether that was done later, whether civilians were

25 used, but it wasn't necessary any longer to use civilians because there

Page 14811

1 were employees of Velepromet who were local people, for the most part,

2 from Territorial Defence. I know that this prominent man even had a

3 little kiosk where he worked, and this was where the first identification

4 of persons took place.

5 Now, whether somebody helped him if he found something unclear and

6 whether he sought assistance, I don't know, but I knew that he was there

7 later, but now I see that he was there earlier on too. But that night you

8 couldn't really see anything.

9 Q. Can I just ask you about the kiosk, what you mean by that. Where

10 was that located?

11 A. That kiosk was in Velepromet later, when I stopped by Velepromet,

12 later. Out there in front of that building - what do you call it? - the

13 room of death, perhaps 10 metres in front of that, in the yard of

14 Velepromet itself.

15 Q. And what was the function of that kiosk or the people in the

16 kiosk? What was its purpose?

17 A. Only one person was in that kiosk. That kiosk even gave people

18 passes to move about in that zone. He issued passes. And he also checked

19 the IDs of persons who came there and who he gave passes to.

20 Q. You have told us about buses and people being placed on the buses

21 that evening of the 19th. I'd like to just deal with that, if I may, for

22 the moment. The buses -- when you went to Velepromet, you were expecting

23 their arrival, is that correct, to assist in the evacuation?

24 A. That is what we were waiting for, for them to arrive, so we didn't

25 do much work except that we, in a way, were milling about amongst all

Page 14812

1 those people and all that commotion. There were quite a few of us there.

2 We could see quite a few things there. In all fairness, I didn't go into

3 the hangars, but the rest I saw well. And -- anyway, later, these people

4 were -- well, we were waiting for the buses. I don't know how long we

5 were waiting, but the buses came soon and then what we organised was to

6 have these people taken out of the hangars. They were brought from the

7 hangars because the -- that's when the military came in, but until then,

8 there was no military presence there. There were policemen there. There

9 was a policeman at the entrance of, or rather, at the bus door too so

10 nobody else could go in. And then when I got on to the bus, then I

11 started writing all the these persons' names down, from the first to the

12 last seat.

13 Q. Am I right in saying that Vujic had indicated that lists should be

14 made of people going on to each bus, or am I wrong about that?

15 A. I think you're wrong because Vujic had no list until we handed the

16 lists in. I handed in my list to Borisavljevic, and there were no

17 markings on it.

18 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note, could all microphones please

19 be switched off. We cannot hear the witness.


21 Q. The question I've asked, it's probably because I have left the

22 mike on --

23 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Moore.

24 MR. MOORE: Sorry.

25 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Lukic.

Page 14813

1 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] In B/C/S, I heard a different

2 interpretation of the question and the witness probably heard the same

3 thing, so could the question please be repeated? Page 63, line 7.

4 Perhaps the interpreters omitted something and that's why the witness gave

5 the kind of answer he gave. So could it please be repeated.


7 Q. May I just repeat the question. Am I right in saying that Vujic

8 had indicated that lists should be made of people going on to each bus, or

9 am I wrong about that? It's Vujic's suggestion for this.

10 A. Well, that's a different question. That is what Vujic said.

11 Vujic asked for these lists to be made. I made them and I handed them

12 over to Borisavljevic.

13 Q. Can I ask what is the purpose of a list in such circumstances, as

14 far as you understand?

15 A. I think that if for no other reason, for the effectiveness of

16 work, that when he would bring them to Sremska Mitrovica, he'd say:

17 Here's the list, here's the men. So then the two could be compared.

18 Q. You've told us about Topola coming at this time and being

19 aggressive. That is correct, I think, isn't it?

20 A. Correct.

21 Q. And without putting too fine a point on it, he's nothing more and

22 was nothing more than a drunken lout that evening the way he was behaving;

23 is that right?

24 A. He behaved terribly, a drunkard, a lout. I don't know how to

25 categorise this person, a very unpleasant sort of person.

Page 14814

1 Q. And is he a rather tall person as well?

2 A. He's tall, with long hair, unshaven, with a long beard. He had a

3 bandage around his hand. He had sort of injured himself in his

4 drunkenness. Yes, he is tall, yes. He had an automatic rifle and a

5 knife; I know he had that.

6 Q. And I seem to remember you telling me that when he was at the bus,

7 he had a -- what I will call a long-arm, perhaps others might call a

8 rifle, where he was standing in a position holding the gun like this; is

9 that correct? Is my recollection right or not?

10 A. He often held a rifle this way, lifted up this way, as if he would

11 shoot up into the air. He wouldn't put it down. Now, what he wanted to

12 know in that way and to whom, I really don't know.

13 Q. Did you get the impression that he was behaving in an arrogant way

14 in front of others?

15 A. Well, his attitude was more arrogant than he, himself. Already by

16 the morning, he would be different; he wouldn't be that way. But after a

17 few brandies, again, he'd be the same. He did attack -- well, he followed

18 Colonel Vujic around most of the time because Vujic took out this man who

19 was given medical assistance; that's where they clashed. So the clash

20 went on for a while, but not with the same kind of intensity.

21 Q. One gets the impression that you consider Bogdan Vujic to be a

22 rather fiery gentleman; would that be right?

23 A. That's right, but not very often.

24 Q. When people were being put on the bus, can you remember

25 approximately how many buses there were?

Page 14815

1 A. I don't know. At any rate, all the buses were full. All the

2 seats had been taken and everybody was sitting down.

3 Q. You made a list, you had control of a bus; I think that is right,

4 isn't it? And Vujic had control of the bus; is that correct?

5 A. Yes. Yes, that's right.

6 Q. Did Tomic have control of a bus? Kijanovic have control of a

7 bus? Can you remember?

8 A. I don't know. I'm not sure, so I really don't want to make a

9 mistake.

10 Q. Can you remember Tomic or Kijanovic ever giving you a list for you

11 to hand on to anyone else?

12 A. Not to me.

13 Q. I think your evidence was that when you went back to Negoslavci

14 that evening, Tomic and Kijanovic were already there. I think that's

15 right, isn't it?

16 A. I think so.

17 Q. And you had travelled back by car?

18 A. We came back in a car.

19 Q. I know this may be a difficult question to answer, but would it be

20 right to say that it was your impression that Tomic and Kijanovic had left

21 Velepromet earlier than you?

22 A. It's possible that they left before me. It's possible because for

23 a while I really did not see them in Velepromet, so I don't know where

24 they were. Had they left earlier or a lot earlier, I don't know.

25 Q. So if one was trying to put it in sequence, it's at the end of

Page 14816

1 your period there when you don't see Tomic and Kijanovic; that's why you

2 can't say when they left?

3 A. Precisely.

4 MR. MOORE: Your Honour, I wonder if that could be an appropriate

5 moment.

6 JUDGE PARKER: Yes, Mr. Moore.

7 And we will resume at five minutes to 6.00.

8 --- Recess taken at 5.35 p.m.

9 --- On resuming at 5.58 p.m.

10 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Moore.

11 MR. MOORE: Thank you very much.

12 Q. Could I just ask you about the arrival of the B-O-V, I think

13 that's what it's called, I call it a BOV. Do you know what I'm talking

14 about or ...

15 A. I do.

16 Q. I think it's an armoured personnel carrier that arrived to

17 accompany the evacuation, is that right, as far as you could see?

18 A. That's true. It's an APC or a BOV, if you like, that arrived with

19 the buses to escort that convoy of buses as far as Sremska Mitrovica.

20 Q. You were with Vujic most of the time at Velepromet, you have told

21 us that; do you agree?

22 A. Most of the time, yes.

23 Q. You are aware that Vujic has said that a situation arose where the

24 BOV vehicle was used by him to threaten a potential incident of violence

25 about one of the rooms. Do you remember hearing about that from Mr. Lukic

Page 14817

1 or indeed from anyone else?

2 A. No.

3 Q. Well, can I deal with this very quickly. What I'm going to

4 suggest to you is this: You have no memory of seeing a BOV vehicle being

5 used to support Vujic; that's right, I think, isn't it?

6 A. I don't know about that. I think I would have known, and that's

7 not what I think it was used for.

8 Q. All I'm going to suggest to you is this: You're not saying it

9 didn't happen. All you're saying is: If it happened, you don't remember

10 seeing it. Would that be a fair way of putting it?

11 A. I think I could even go as far as to assert that. It would have

12 been seen moving about the court-yard. I probably would have noticed with

13 the headlights on and -- no.

14 Q. Well, we'll agree to disagree on that. I thought, in fairness to

15 you, I should put it to you.

16 With regard to people being killed, you said that you did not see

17 or know of anyone being killed at Velepromet; is that right?

18 A. That's what I said.

19 Q. But you have also told us that within a group like this, often

20 there is a transfer of information to assist others in their understanding

21 at that time; is that correct?

22 A. I don't know. Nobody told us about any killings at Velepromet,

23 not to my knowledge.

24 Q. I presume that you are aware that evidence was given in Belgrade

25 by Kijanovic, where he stated that he had found bodies at Velepromet on

Page 14818

1 the morning of the 20th. Were you aware of him saying that in Belgrade?

2 A. I didn't follow the Belgrade trial, but I do happen to know that

3 he said that. Bogdan Vujic told me about that as well.

4 Q. But as far as you are concerned, Kijanovic never mentioned it to

5 you; is that correct?

6 A. No, never. I did not have any particular conversations with

7 Kijanovic at all.

8 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Lukic.

9 MR. MOORE: I think I understand where the error is, and it's my

10 fault, actually. I've got it the wrong way around. So may I just

11 clarify it if that is the objection. That in actual fact, Mr. Kijanovic,

12 it's Mr. Kijanovic made a statement in relation to finding bodies at

13 Velepromet, were you aware of that, not at Belgrade.

14 MR. LUKIC: That's my objection. No, no.

15 JUDGE PARKER: Go ahead, Mr. Lukic.

16 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I think, if memory serves, even in the

17 OTP statement - my learned friend probably has it in front of him - in his

18 statement to the Belgrade court, Kijanovic said he had found dead bodies

19 in the gardens behind Velepromet, which I think is very different, on the

20 20th. He said something about finding three dead bodies in the gardens

21 behind Velepromet, and I think it would only be fair to put it that way to

22 the witness since this circumstance is being put to the witness.

23 MR. MOORE: In actual fact, I'm referring from the statement, and

24 I will put it to the witness accurately. It's paragraph 40.

25 "I discovered three to four bodies in the open space in the fields

Page 14819

1 behind Velepromet on the 20th of November."

2 Q. So were you aware that he was saying that subsequently?

3 A. Bogdan Vujic told me, he was the one, before evidence at the

4 special court.

5 Q. And were you aware in 2000 that Tomic had said at the special

6 court that he knew that the day before, that's the 20th, there had been

7 murders of prisoners at Velepromet and that he was present when 10 or 15

8 bodies were taken away from that area.

9 Now, that is Tomic giving evidence on the 14th of March, 2000, at

10 the military court in Belgrade. Were you aware of him saying that?

11 MR. LUKIC: Objection again.

12 JUDGE PARKER: Yes, Mr. Lukic.

13 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] As far as I remember now, the evidence

14 is being used from a witness that we talked a lot about, it was ruled out

15 of this trial. If you remember what Bogdan Vujic testified and then

16 Mr. Vasic objected, and Tomic is dead; and in that sense, there was this

17 decision to not use his testimony. I think there is a ruling to that

18 effect, a written one, in fact.

19 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you.

20 MR. MOORE: Well, I actually don't have a recollection. I

21 remember it was specifically with regard to the evidence as a whole, but I

22 am putting a matter to this witness whether in actual fact he was aware

23 that Tomic had made that statement; and secondly, whether this witness was

24 aware of that conclusion or that statement by Tomic himself. If he says

25 no, I move off.

Page 14820

1 JUDGE PARKER: Neither Judge Thelin nor I recall now precisely

2 what was said about [Realtime transcript read in error "by"] Tomic. It

3 was quite a time ago I'm afraid.

4 I think the course to be followed at the moment, Mr. Moore, is for

5 you to put the question and get the answer. If there is any significance

6 in the answer, it will be necessary for the Chamber to refresh its

7 recollection and to see whether it should disallow that question and

8 answer.

9 MR. MOORE: I will put it again because it's ...

10 Q. You are aware -- at least you seem to be suggesting you are aware

11 that Tomic had said to the Belgrade court that the day before, i.e., the

12 19th, there had been murders of prisoners at Velepromet and that he was

13 present when 10 or 15 bodies were taken away from that area.

14 MR. MOORE: Now, I wonder if my learned friend Ms. Dokmanovic

15 could just keep her voice down a little bit, please, with the utmost

16 respect.

17 Q. Now, were you aware of that suggestion by Tomic or indeed that

18 suggestion generally? Can you help me?

19 A. As for Tomic's evidence, and what you said about Tomic, it's the

20 first I hear about it. Not even Vujic ever told me anything about Tomic's

21 testimony.

22 Q. So are you saying then that at no time when you were in Velepromet

23 or Vukovar were you ever told by Kijanovic or Tomic about dead bodies.

24 That is your final position on it; would that be right?

25 A. On the 20th, I met Tomic and Kijanovic at 6.00 in the morning when

Page 14821

1 I was off to the hospital. I didn't see them again that day, nor indeed

2 did I hear from them; therefore, they couldn't possibly have told me

3 anything about that, since I never spoke to them that day. Even later on

4 when we left for Sid --

5 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreters did not get the final part of

6 the witness's answer.


8 Q. The interpreter didn't hear the last part. You said even when you

9 went to Sid, what happened after that, please? Can you just expand that?

10 A. I didn't say even when we went to Sid. I said I didn't see them

11 at all on that day because we went to Sid and they went to Negoslavci, and

12 I never saw them again.

13 Q. So when this matter was over on the 20th, you did not see Tomic or

14 Kijanovic again; would that be right? Is that what you're saying?

15 A. The right thing to say would be I did not see them at all on that

16 day, apart from the time I saw them at 6.00 a.m.

17 Q. Well, can I ask you when the next time it was when you saw them,

18 if you are able to tell us that?

19 A. I never saw them again at all, with the exception of Bogdan Vujic.

20 Q. Thank you very much. You've told us that you went back to

21 Negoslavci, so I want to move away from Velepromet and go back to

22 Negoslavci in the early hours of the 20th. Can I deal with that topic,

23 please. Is that all right? You know the area I'm talking about.

24 A. No. No, it's not all right. I wasn't in Negoslavci on the 20th.

25 Q. Did you not go back to -- did you not report back to the area

Page 14822

1 where you had got your instructions from Mrksic and Sljivancanin?

2 Mr. Lukic seems to be suggesting that the interpretation may be

3 wrong. So shall I ask the question again if the interpretation is wrong?

4 A. If I understand you correctly, you are asking me about the 20th

5 and Negoslavci. I'm saying I was not in Negoslavci at all on the 20th.

6 We left Ovcara and went straight to Sid.

7 Q. But I'm talking about the very early hours of the morning of the

8 20th, 1.00 or 2.00 a.m.

9 A. Well, that's a different matter, isn't it?

10 Q. Well, that's the time I want to deal with. So you return back to

11 Negoslavci, you agree? Yes?

12 A. We returned to Negoslavci that night, after we'd finished that job

13 at Velepromet. That is all right, yes.

14 Q. Thank you.

15 A. Yes, I think I failed to understand the first time around.

16 Q. Not a problem at all. Now, when you get back, you find Kijanovic

17 and Tomic there. You then told us I think you went to have a bite to eat

18 down below; is that right?

19 A. In the cellar, yes, we had some canned food and then went back to

20 the same place we were before. This only took a short while.

21 Q. So is the situation that when you arrived back, you were asked

22 whether you would like to have something to eat and you went down to the

23 cellar to have something to eat then. Is that right?

24 A. Yes, yes.

25 Q. What was happening upstairs when you were eating?

Page 14823

1 A. I don't know that, do I?

2 Q. You come back upstairs and I think you go into the same room, and

3 you basically try and sleep in those chairs. Have I got the sequence

4 right?

5 A. Yes, you got it right.

6 Q. Let us move then, please, to 6.00 a.m. on the morning of the 20th,

7 where you travel from Negoslavci to the hospital. I want to deal with

8 that area of evidence. You've already told us that Sljivancanin had

9 indicated to you what you were to do. You had taken lists or compiled

10 lists at Velepromet. Did Sljivancanin tell you to compile lists at the

11 hospital; can you remember?

12 A. I can't remember that, and I don't think he ever told me to

13 compile any lists.

14 Q. You get to the hospital, Sljivancanin is with I think a captain,

15 is that right, another officer, Vujic, and yourself. Is my memory correct

16 on that?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. And you see Sljivancanin then standing up on something and

19 addressing the crowd; is that right?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. We have heard evidence that on occasions, there were TO persons,

22 paramilitary persons, who were at the hospital to help select or identify

23 various individuals. Did you see that when you were there?

24 A. When I was there, people were helping us. Were they TO men or

25 not, I don't know, but I received a lot of assistance from someone who

Page 14824

1 used to be a hospital employee before the war broke out. The same applied

2 to the nurses.

3 Q. We have heard the name of a hospital employee, his name was

4 Bogdan Kuzmic, does that ring a bell? If you can't remember, just say if

5 you're bad on names.

6 A. I don't have such a good head for names, but I can't [Realtime

7 transcript read in error "can"] say that particular one rings a bell.

8 Q. What were the people doing to help you in the selection process?

9 Can you explain to the Court the tasks and functions.

10 A. I didn't even know that they had received any tasks at all, but

11 they were helping us and had it not been for them, I would have had to

12 request outside assistance, assistance from outside the hospital. For

13 example, any staff who knew or recognised the people that I was taking

14 outside. I don't know what their other tasks might have been.

15 MR. MOORE: Mr. Lukic has an objection.

16 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Lukic.

17 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I apologise to interrupt, but I do

18 have something about the transcript, it's page 75, line 2, this is not

19 what the witness said. I won't be repeating that but I think his answer

20 was entirely different from what was said in relation to Bogdan Kuzmic, so

21 could we please have that question again and the answer.

22 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Moore.

23 MR. MOORE: I'll see if I asked the right question. I take it

24 it's the question at 74, 24, is that the question that -- very well.

25 Q. I repeat the question, it's not your fault. We have heard the

Page 14825

1 name of a hospital employee, his name was Bogdan Kuzmic, does that name

2 ring a bell?

3 A. I don't have such a good head for names, as I said, but I can't

4 say that particular name rings a bell. I don't think I have ever heard

5 that name.

6 JUDGE PARKER: If it helps, Mr. Moore, I had noted that it doesn't

7 ring a bell.

8 Could I also mention that at page 70, line 24, I mentioned that

9 neither Judge Thelin nor I could remember what was said and the transcript

10 has the words "by Tomic"; what was intended was "about Tomic." Thank you.


12 Q. Can you tell just tell us then, please, exactly the procedure that

13 what operating at the hospital for, what I will call, the selection, the

14 triage. How were these people assisting?

15 A. For example, if one of the persons selected by me to go were not

16 medical staff, were not hospital employees, and had not left with those

17 people that they were meant to leave with when they were allowed to go and

18 head for Velepromet, if for example, I came across such a person and they

19 defended themselves by saying they were hospital employees, that they were

20 working at the hospital, or that they were previously employees, then I

21 have to go to one of the staff to tell me whether this person in fact was

22 a hospital employee or not.

23 Q. The people who were selecting, let us take the -- what I will call

24 the Sljivancanin vehicle. We have got Sljivancanin, we have got a

25 captain, we have got yourself, we have got Vujic, and we have another.

Page 14826

1 That's five, I think. And were there other officers who -- or indeed,

2 soldiers from the JNA, as far as you could see, who were assisting in the

3 triage? Because five doesn't seem a lot for a large number of people.

4 A. All I know is there were doctors present there from the military

5 hospital and from Novi Sad.

6 Q. We have heard evidence, obviously, from other individuals who were

7 at the hospital, both from the Prosecution and from the Defence. With

8 regard to JNA officers, what JNA officers did you see there at the

9 hospital assisting in the triage?

10 A. I saw the doctors from Novi Sad.

11 Q. Did you see tables or desks being used where individuals were

12 being searched, for example, to check if they were carrying weapons or

13 cold steel - I think is the phrase that was being used - before getting on

14 the bus? Did you see that?

15 A. That was done outside; it was done by the military police. It was

16 done to all the persons we were bringing outside. They would go as far as

17 the tables, they would take things out of their pockets, military police

18 would check these things, and I would go back inside for the next round.

19 Q. Did you see anybody making a list at that time in the hospital?

20 A. No, I didn't.

21 Q. We have heard evidence in what is called the Mitnica evacuation

22 that there was quite a detailed list of 175 other ranks and I think 7

23 officers, and they were precise about the numbers. This was a group that

24 went to Sremska Mitrovica. We have heard evidence today from you that you

25 made accurate notes or lists of people getting on the buses. Can you

Page 14827

1 explain why it was there was no list or lists being compiled in relation

2 to the people who were going on to that bus that eventually ended up in

3 Ovcara?

4 A. I don't know about that.

5 Q. Being absolutely honest about it - which I'm sure you are, and I'm

6 not suggesting in any way you are not - isn't it right you would have

7 expected a list to be compiled?

8 A. Well, I don't know, but I don't think that I expected it to be

9 compiled in the hospital, because it would not have been a single list. I

10 could have compiled a list in the hospital only of the persons that I took

11 out, and I don't even know whether it's them.

12 Q. But isn't it right that the people in the triage, from what you

13 have told us, the hospital people were not going to go on the buses, the

14 women were not going to go on the buses, but the men who could walk were

15 going to go on the buses. That was the classification that you

16 understood; isn't that right? Do you remember your evidence at the start?

17 A. No, that's not what I said, that's for sure, that that was the

18 classification that existed, because I didn't know who would be doing the

19 transporting and how and from where. I just knew that they were supposed

20 to go to Sremska Mitrovica.

21 As for the boarding of vehicles and so on, I don't know about

22 that. Women were on one side and men on the other. When the women got

23 out, I don't know. I just took the men out.

24 Q. But as far as you were aware, if the person was a hospital

25 employee or was linked to the hospital and was a man, he almost certainly

Page 14828

1 was not going to go on the bus, but other men were; isn't that right? I

2 see you nodding.

3 A. That's right.

4 Q. And if that is the case, those men were being searched by the

5 military police to check about cold steel; that is correct, isn't it?

6 A. That's correct too.

7 Q. And also, if there was to be a list compiled, it could have been

8 compiled at the time when they were distributing or leaving their cold

9 steel on the table; that is correct, isn't it?

10 A. Possibly. I don't know.

11 Q. Can I ask you just to reflect upon that? Is that not the time

12 when you would compile a list where the people who were going on to the

13 bus were being searched before they went? Isn't that the time you would

14 make a list?

15 A. Well, it could be that moment, but it can also be the moment of

16 the boarding of the buses.

17 MR. MOORE: Could Your Honour forgive me one moment.

18 Q. We have heard evidence that the security -- and seen evidence that

19 the security organ had names of individuals who, perhaps, would be

20 considered to be MUP, HDZ, or persons who had committed atrocities. We

21 have heard and seen this evidence. Were you aware of the existence of a

22 list of people who were known to be involved in, perhaps, criminal acts

23 against Serbs and other people?

24 A. I was not aware of any such list, that's for sure. And if that

25 list did exist, then it's possible that Mr. Sljivancanin had it or Vujic,

Page 14829

1 but I don't know.

2 Q. Well, Mr. Vujic went to Velepromet, isn't that right, after the

3 hospital?

4 A. Yes. Yes.

5 Q. And Mr. Sljivancanin - as you indicated to us at the very outset -

6 had indicated that things had to be done and completed before the ICRC

7 arrived; that is correct, isn't it?

8 A. That's what we did.

9 Q. And it was Mr. Sljivancanin who was indicating to Colonel Vujic

10 what was required of you all; that is correct, isn't it?

11 A. What we were supposed to do.

12 Q. Can I move on, please, to Velepromet, what I will call the

13 Velepromet meeting evidence. I suspect you know what I'm talking about.

14 You get there, and is it right that you find Borisavljevic there?

15 A. I saw Borisavljevic when he got out of the office where they had

16 the meeting, Vujic, Kijanovic, and I don't know who else was there too,

17 because I was not at that meeting.

18 Q. I want to deal with the brief-case incident. Now, I think it is

19 right to say that Borisavljevic brought the brief-case to the office where

20 I think you and Vujic were located; is that right or not?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. The brief-case contained, did it not, a large number of wallets;

23 that is right, isn't it?

24 A. Not a large number. I think about three wallets and two

25 envelopes, something like that. I'm not sure now how many there were. I

Page 14830

1 may make a mistake, say, of one.

2 Q. Well I won't hold that against you. Can I just deal with the

3 wallets themselves. Did the wallets have items inside them or were they

4 completely empty?

5 A. The wallets were full.

6 Q. Yes. And when we talk about full, some wallets are fuller than

7 others. Was there money in the wallets sometimes?

8 A. Yes. In every one of the wallets, there was money, there were

9 Deutschemark, there were dollars, there were dinars.

10 Q. Well I was going to suggest to you about the dollars and

11 Deutschemarks. Was there also documents in the wallet that tended to

12 suggest the identification of the person?

13 A. I think that in all wallets, there were personal IDs and also

14 other documents in those wallets, and I wrote down all the particulars

15 from those documents as well as all the bank notes, too.

16 Q. And am I right in my recollection when you gave your evidence, and

17 indeed when you spoke to me, that you had been told by Borisavljevic that

18 you said in evidence here his man, a policeman, but I'd suggest - and it

19 is only my memory, and I can check it - that when you were speaking to me

20 upstairs, you referred to "his men" had found them nearby.

21 Now, can I just try and clarify this. I'm not trying to catch you

22 out any way at all. Is it a case that Borisavljevic told you either that

23 his man or his men had found the brief-case; can you remember?

24 A. He said that his man had found that brief-case, handed it over to

25 him, and that he didn't have time to handle that; so he asked us to look

Page 14831

1 into this and to have it handed over to the security administration

2 because we would be going to Belgrade before him.

3 Q. And again, is it right to say that Borisavljevic indicated that

4 the location of the finding of the wallet, the brief-case and wallets, was

5 in what I will call the general Velepromet area; is that correct?

6 A. No, not in the general area. He said he found it behind the

7 hangar.

8 Q. Well, it's my fault for the way I put it, but it's in the general

9 hangar area of Velepromet. My fault. Now --

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. -- I'm right in saying, I believe, that in your evidence here, you

12 thought - I will use the English phrase - you were being set-up by the

13 paramilitaries or the TO. "Set-up" means "framed" in American language;

14 is that right?

15 A. At first that's what I thought. I mean, that they needed that in

16 view of the fact that they were angry at us and they were objecting, that

17 they were trying to discredit us in that way, and - how should I put

18 this? - to put us down in front of the people.

19 Q. But would I be right in saying that that was your original view --

20 but bearing in mind what had happened the night before with Topola and the

21 arrogance, would it be right to say that you put two and two together and

22 thought perhaps there was more to this than met the eye? Do you

23 understand the phrase? I can rephrase it if it's a difficulty.

24 A. The first thing that came to mind was what I told you, well, this

25 framing; then secondly, I was aware, during the course of my previous work

Page 14832

1 before I ever came to Vukovar, that at some check-points - when entering

2 the village, when leaving the village - some people were brought in and

3 some policemen or soldiers took away documents from people, and we

4 corrected that. We went around explaining this to these people who were

5 setting up these check-points that you are not supposed to take away

6 peoples' documents.

7 So I did not rule out that possibility, that some soldier had made

8 a mistake and had taken away the documents of the people who had come to

9 Velepromet, and that was the first thing that came to my mind. But what

10 you said, this third option, is something that crossed my mind too.

11 Q. Why did you think the third option was a possibility?

12 A. I didn't think of it very much, but everything is possible,

13 anything is possible.

14 Q. I want to ask about Arkan.

15 MR. MOORE: And I'm going to ask if we could go into chambers --

16 in closed session for that.

17 JUDGE PARKER: Closed.

18 [Closed session]

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 14833











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22 (redacted)

23 [Open session]

24 MR. MOORE: Thank you.

25 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we are back in open session.

Page 14835


2 Q. You have told us about Arkan and Vujic or Vujic, I think,

3 suggesting that the military police should bring Arkan to he, Vujic; is

4 that right?

5 A. That was in the second order to the policemen, because Arkan did

6 not want to come when first summoned.

7 Q. But when Arkan came, came into the office with Vujic there, You

8 are a crazy colonel, you are just an ordinary fool, how did Vujic react to

9 that?

10 A. His reaction was very strong. He was all worked up. He didn't

11 know what to do. And then he said, Did you come to kill here too? That's

12 when he said it.

13 Q. And it was then that you tried to pacify the situation saying, If

14 you kill one here, five -- Tudjman will kill five. So you, basically,

15 were trying to suggest to Arkan to behave and not to behave irresponsibly,

16 and not to kill anybody; that's what you were trying to do, isn't it?

17 A. Precisely because of killings, not only because of killings, I

18 said if he expels or kills one person, or has the population of a village

19 moved out, that Tudjman would move out the population of five of those

20 villages of mine in Croatia where I was born. But in order to pacify the

21 situation between the two of them, that was my intention. The two of them

22 were tense. Arkan didn't seem that tense as Vujic. He got Vujic so

23 upset, so I didn't want to have an incident that would be worse there, and

24 that is why I tried to calm things down.

25 Q. And Arkan, as far as you are aware, had attended the government

Page 14836

1 meeting or was to attend the government meeting at that time; that's

2 right, isn't it?

3 A. Arkan attended the government meeting, and he invited Vujic to

4 come to the government meeting and Vujic said: I will.

5 Q. And wouldn't it be right to say that Vujic, when he went to the

6 government meeting, as far as you are aware, Vujic was trying to take a

7 position to protect individuals and not release them away from JNA

8 custody?

9 A. I'm sorry, I didn't understand that.

10 Q. You weren't at the government meeting, this I know, and we're not

11 suggesting that you were; but Vujic came back and told you his account.

12 We also have heard evidence here.

13 As far as you were aware from Vujic, Vujic's position was that he

14 was standing against people like Arkan and not letting them take control

15 of these prisoners, that he was trying to retain the custody of those

16 prisoners, custody remaining with the JNA. Isn't that right?

17 A. That is right.

18 Q. And is it also right to say the reason that he was doing that was

19 because he was afraid that something would happen to those prisoners?

20 MR. LUKIC: Objection.

21 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Moore, the objection is self-evident. I

22 thought you be would be able to respond.

23 MR. MOORE: It's so late in the day, I doubt I will be able to

24 respond at all.

25 May I use Mr. Weiner's technique and say: I withdraw the

Page 14837

1 question, Your Honour.

2 JUDGE PARKER: I'm glad Boston is teaching Belfast something.

3 MR. MOORE: Your Honour, I was going to move on to a different

4 topic, and can I try and piggyback Mr. Korica's fatigue and ask if this

5 would be an appropriate moment?

6 JUDGE PARKER: I take it, Mr. Moore, you feel it would be more

7 profitable if we spent a shorter time tomorrow?

8 MR. MOORE: Your Honour, I will. I will definitely try to be

9 shorter tomorrow.

10 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Lukic.

11 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Well, that's what I'm interested in.

12 Could I know a bit more specifically what the time would be? Now I see

13 that Mr. Moore has the lead in terms of time. He's spent more time with

14 this witness than I did, and I need to know so that I could tell you

15 tomorrow about next week, what you asked me about. So our next witness is

16 ready. But I still need to know, so I believe that it would be helpful to

17 everyone, but our team in particular, if we were to stick to the original

18 schedule for next week. So could we please know how long Mr. Moore is

19 going to be.

20 MR. MOORE: I will finish within the first session.

21 JUDGE PARKER: Very well.

22 Are you in a position, Mr. Lukic, to forecast how you will be in

23 completing, whether we need to sit longer hours on the days that are

24 available next week?

25 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] May I tell you tomorrow?

Page 14838

1 JUDGE PARKER: Yes, Mr. Lukic.

2 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

3 JUDGE PARKER: We must know tomorrow.

4 We will adjourn now. We will resume tomorrow at 2.15.

5 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 6.55 p.m.,

6 to be reconvened on Friday, the 17th day of

7 November, 2006, at 2.15 p.m.