Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 14839

1 Friday, 17 November 2006

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 --- Upon commencing at 2.17 p.m.

5 JUDGE PARKER: Good afternoon. I understand there are some

6 preliminary matters.

7 Mr. Moore.

8 MR. MOORE: Your Honour, there are very short matters. It's

9 really to do with timing. I've had a chance to speak to my learned friend

10 Mr. Lukic, because clearly the Court asked whether it be necessary to sit

11 next week full days. I, for my part, have cut down my cross-examination

12 this afternoon. I would hope that I would be finished by 3.00. But I

13 can't obviously guarantee it, but that's my intention.

14 And I think that Mr. Lukic may have an application that the matter

15 only go as far as evidence-in-chief for the next witness and for

16 cross-examination to be carried over, but he can make that application.

17 But I just give you what my timings will be.

18 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Lukic.

19 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] It's always a pleasure for me when

20 Mr. Moore abbreviates or shortens his cross-examination.

21 What I wanted to tell you, based on my conversation with him, and

22 based on what you wanted to hear from me about next week, this is my

23 proposal. If you are leaving it up to me to give a proposal for next day,

24 my proposal is to sit all day on Tuesday, Wednesday, and Friday, and to

25 sit half a day on Monday and Thursday. I think that if we do it this way,

Page 14840

1 then we can, I think, complete three witnesses, especially since one of

2 those three will take a bit longer. So that would be my proposal.

3 Depending on how much time we have left today, after the

4 examination-in-chief of the next witness, I think that you should decide

5 whether we need to proceed with cross-examination of other counsel and so

6 on, and it all depends on when we finish with the current witness. I

7 expect that Mr. Susic, the next witness will take one session in

8 examination-in-chief.

9 So let us see how we proceed and then decide whether we will work

10 full day today or not, and if we sit three full days next week, both

11 morning and in the afternoon, I think we will be right on schedule and we

12 will be able to complete everything.

13 Now, I will leave it up to you to decide whether on Monday and

14 Friday we should sit half days or full days and then the other -- or,

15 rather, on Monday and Friday whether we should sit only in the morning or

16 in the afternoon, but those are the two days that I propose that we work

17 half a day only.

18 JUDGE PARKER: I'm a little confused about Thursday and Friday of

19 next week. I think you said you proposed that we should sit full days

20 Tuesday, Wednesday, and Friday. Did you mean Thursday?

21 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Must have been interpretation error.

22 I said Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday. I think that those are the days we

23 can work full day. I don't think anybody feels like working full day on

24 Friday. Unless for some reason we are delayed, then yes, we can sit on

25 Friday full day as well, but I think that everybody would prefer to work

Page 14841

1 fewer hours on Friday.

2 [Trial Chamber confers]

3 JUDGE PARKER: We will proceed with the witness and indicate the

4 position. I expect we'll sit Tuesday, Wednesday and Thursday, full days.

5 The precise hours of sitting we will indicate in due course.

6 The sitting hours on Tuesday, Wednesday and Thursday next week

7 will be those that we have followed for other full days. That is 9.30 in

8 the morning to 12.45, break for lunch, 2.00 until 5.00.

9 [The witness entered court]


11 [Witness answered through interpreter]

12 JUDGE PARKER: Good afternoon, Mr. Korica. The affirmation you

13 made at the beginning of your evidence still applies.

14 Mr. Moore is continuing with his questions.

15 Cross-examination by Mr. Moore: [Continued]

16 Q. Good afternoon, Mr. Korica. I have very few questions for you.

17 But I want to deal with two questions that perhaps I should have asked

18 yesterday. The first one was this: You told us that at the hospital you

19 believe that you selected about 20 persons. Do you remember saying that?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. At that time, was Mr. Sljivancanin present within the hospital, as

22 far as you could see?

23 A. Up to the meeting, I saw him only once, with the doctors. I

24 didn't see him afterwards until I saw him in front of the hospital.

25 THE INTERPRETER: Could other microphones please be switched off

Page 14842

1 when the witness is speaking.


3 Q. So how long would you estimate that you were at the hospital for

4 before you left? So the time of your arrival until you left, how long?

5 A. I'm not sure I can be precise about it. We came at around 7.00

6 and we left the hospital at around 10.00.

7 Q. Did you see Mr. Sljivancanin choose anyone through that period?

8 A. I didn't see that at all.

9 Q. And where were you going for the selection process, where you

10 found these 20 people? Was that on the basement level? Can you just tell

11 us?

12 A. One part was in the rooms, on the ground floor, but also there

13 were some in the corridor, although there were mostly the wounded there.

14 But I think that I took aside very few people there, perhaps two or three.

15 Q. I want to ask you a question, it's very difficult to estimate the

16 time, but it's more the topic that will be revealing, and it seems to be

17 somewhere between the early hours of the 20th of November. Were you

18 present when Vujic asked Mr. Kijanovic to go to Velepromet and to check to

19 see if he could find any bodies in Velepromet?

20 A. I have never heard that. Not even Vujic said that.

21 Q. So the simple answer is you didn't hear that but you certainly

22 weren't present in any event, if that was said; is that right?

23 A. That's correct, precisely so.

24 Q. I would like to return now to the JNA barracks, on the 20th, and

25 you told us in evidence that Muncan had told you about the troubles at the

Page 14843

1 JNA barracks. I want to deal with that topic. Do you follow me?

2 A. I am.

3 Q. Were you ever informed or were you ever told that both Kijanovic

4 and Tomic had approached or gone to Mrksic to tell he, Mrksic, about the

5 trouble at the barracks and indeed that Tomic had likened it to incidents

6 in World War II? Did you ever hear that being said?

7 A. I didn't hear anything of the sort on the 19th, because we found

8 Mrksic there at that place. Now, as to whether somebody went out with him

9 and told him something there, that's possible, but as long -- as far as I

10 know, and I was present, even though I fell asleep for a while, but while

11 I was present and awake, in my presence nobody approached Mrksic.

12 Q. I'm not talking about the time when you were at Negoslavci. I'm

13 talking about the period when the JNA barracks, where there was the

14 incident at the JNA barracks, and that the buses had been subject to

15 violence. Talking about the period after that, whether you had heard that

16 Kijanovic and Tomic had left and gone to see Mrksic to express their

17 concerns about what was happening and that Tomic was likening it to a

18 World War II scenario, a bad situation. So that's the period I'm talking

19 about. Did you ever hear that being mentioned?

20 A. I never heard anybody mentioning anything of the sort, except that

21 Bogdan Vujic said that he had approached Mrksic, and when I asked him

22 when, he said while we were in that room. I didn't see Mrksic, and I said

23 right away that I didn't see Mrksic, and I don't know when he approached

24 him. Nobody else said anything about that. People did talk about

25 incidents, that, yes.

Page 14844

1 Q. May I deal, then, please, with your trip to Ovcara? You went with

2 Muncan in the car and with your other colleagues, that is correct, you

3 remember saying that?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. And if we try and work out the time, it would appear that you felt

6 it was around dusk, between the light and dark. Would that be right?

7 A. Precisely so.

8 Q. When you were there, and I know that you said you didn't get out

9 of the car, did you see a digger? When I say a digger, I mean a vehicle

10 that has a large bucket on the front. Did you see a digger present at

11 that time? Can you remember? If you can't, please say so.

12 A. I can't remember seeing that at all.

13 Q. May we deal, then, with what you have told us occurred. You

14 remained in the car, and Muncan and his colleague got out but they came

15 back from the Ovcara hangar within five minutes; is that correct?

16 A. Correct.

17 Q. As far as you could see, is it correct to say that they went

18 inside the hangar at that time?

19 A. I was not able to see the door of the hangar, because it was

20 behind a curve, an angle. However, a policeman stood there. They passed

21 by the policeman, and I suppose they entered but I couldn't see the actual

22 door.

23 Q. From the conversation that you had with them when they returned,

24 would it be right to say it was your impression that they had looked in to

25 the hangar to assess whether it was possible to carry on with various

Page 14845

1 procedures?

2 A. That was my impression, exactly.

3 Q. When they returned, it's right to say they came back within five

4 minutes, there was no discussion about whether they should try to do

5 anything, it was merely a fact of saying, "There is nothing here for us,

6 the situation for interviews is not appropriate, there is no room, and we

7 will now leave"?

8 A. Muncan only said, "There are no conditions for work here, none

9 whatsoever. There is no light in the room, it's becoming dark, and there

10 is no separate room where we could work." He didn't mention anything

11 else.

12 Q. Was there any discussion about using rooms in the facility apart

13 from the hangar, or trying to find rooms in the facility apart from the

14 hangar?

15 A. Muncan didn't go looking for that, nor did he inquire with anybody

16 about that. As far as I could see, he went straight back to the car, just

17 as he initially went in.

18 Q. From your car, how would you -- how far would you estimate it was

19 from your car to the door of the hangar, as you believed it to be?

20 A. Less than 20 metres. We stopped here, and the door, the entrance

21 to the hangar, was here on this side, and the hangar stretched lengthwise

22 to the left. We stopped in front of the hangar. The policeman was on the

23 corner.

24 Q. Can we just imagine your car parked, and you are looking out the

25 front window, was the hangar on the right or on the left?

Page 14846

1 A. On the left from the car.

2 Q. Would you be kind enough, please, to hold up your left arm?

3 A. [Witness complies].

4 Q. I'm going to ask -- thank you. I'm going to ask that you be given

5 a piece of paper and a pencil, if that's available, and for you to draw

6 the road that you travelled on, the location of the car, and the hangar

7 and where you believed the door would be, and then we will put it on the

8 ELMO. Would you mind doing that now?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Could you mark the car with an A, please, and the hangar with a B?

11 A. [Marks].

12 Q. The car is pointing to the top of the page, I presume that's the

13 front; is that right?

14 A. [No interpretation].

15 Q. Would you be kind enough to draw for us what I will call the main

16 road that you travelled on, as best you can? So you have obviously, I

17 presume, a road in front of you and a road behind you. Are you able to do

18 that?

19 A. [Marks].

20 Q. Would you be kind enough to put it on the ELMO again, please? So

21 on the left-hand side, we have got the main road going down to Negoslavci,

22 going north, as I call it, going towards Vukovar; is that right?

23 A. I don't know if I drew it all correct, but I think that that's how

24 it was.

25 Q. That's what you remember; is that right?

Page 14847

1 A. That's what I remember. I remember travelling that way. I never

2 went there again, so I can't be sure that I drew this correctly.

3 Q. But you remember the hangar on the left?

4 A. Yes. I remember that.

5 Q. Thank you very much. I'm going to ask if that could be made an

6 exhibit, please.

7 JUDGE PARKER: It will be received.

8 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit IC 000178, Your Honours.

9 MR. MOORE: I think perhaps just an exhibit number might do but --

10 anyway, I'm sure that can be clarified. Perhaps if that could be taken

11 away from the ELMO.

12 THE REGISTRAR: My apologies, Your Honours. That will be

13 Exhibit 857.


15 Q. Can I just deal with literally very few points now.

16 It's right to say that when you were based or when you stopped at

17 Ovcara, from where you were, you could not tell who the territorials were

18 or who the soldiers were. You couldn't distinguish between them. Is that

19 correct? That appeared to be your evidence yesterday.

20 A. That's what I said and that's what I think now. I recognised some

21 officers as active-duty officers, what I could see, one or two, and as for

22 others, I couldn't really tell which were members of the TO and which were

23 the JNA members.

24 Q. And it also, I suggest, flows from your evidence, and indeed I

25 think you said it, that you could not tell whether anybody was the other

Page 14848

1 side off the hangar or how many people were in the hangar; is that

2 correct?

3 A. I couldn't tell how many people there were on the other side of

4 the hangar, even though as we were arriving there, we passed through, so

5 perhaps we could have seen whether there was anybody there. But I was

6 unable to see myself whether at the top, towards the top, there was

7 anybody or not because there were soldiers and officers there. And we had

8 come from the lower side; that's how we arrived.

9 Q. Did you see any person blowing a whistle?

10 A. No, never. I heard it for the first time from you.

11 Q. May we move on then to your visit to Sid, where I think Mr. Muncan

12 reported to Petkovic? May I deal with that for a moment, please?

13 Am I right in saying that as far as you understood, having spoken

14 to Muncan, that Muncan had the following pieces of information: Firstly,

15 that there had been attacks on the buses in the barracks? Do you accept

16 that? Because it was Muncan who told you about it; isn't that right?

17 A. Muncan told me that there had been attacks by individuals and

18 small groups on buses, but he didn't tell me that there was any physical

19 fight because people had already been on the buses, and those other ones

20 did not enter buses, nor did they, as far as I could hear, break the

21 windows or do anything of the sort.

22 Q. The second piece of information that he had was that he had been

23 to the Ovcara hangar, because you've given evidence of that. That is

24 correct, is it not?

25 A. He certainly informed him of that too.

Page 14849

1 Q. And thirdly, Muncan may well have been able to inform Petkovic of

2 anything that you had told he, Muncan; that is right, isn't it?

3 A. I could tell about what happened in the hospital.

4 As for Velepromet, he was there himself, and there was no need for

5 me to inform him of anything because he was able to see it for himself.

6 As for what took place in the hospital, he must have informed him

7 about that but there was nothing of interest, and everything concluded the

8 way we had foreseen and planned.

9 Q. Did Muncan tell you, in general terms, what he had reported to

10 Petkovic?

11 A. He did not give me any details. We did talk about it, that he

12 reported to Petkovic about everything that had happened over those two

13 days.

14 Q. After you had reported to Petkovic, where did you go, please?

15 A. Three of us went to the apartment immediately, and Muncan went to

16 Petkovic.

17 Q. And when he returned from Petkovic, where were you, and where did

18 you stay?

19 A. We were in this private apartment near the post office where we

20 had been earlier and we were there then too. We were there for about 20

21 days altogether.

22 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: Could all microphones

23 please be switched off when the witness speaks.


25 Q. I think you told us that you had not had sleep for two days; is

Page 14850

1 that right, by the end of the 20th?

2 A. Correct.

3 Q. Would it be correct to say that when you went to the apartment,

4 you had a well-deserved sleep?

5 A. First I had a beer and then I went to sleep.

6 Q. Did you report to Petkovic the following day?

7 A. No. I never reported to Petkovic.

8 Q. So it would be right to say that you would not be able to say if

9 Vujic had given a report to Petkovic on the 21st. That is correct, isn't

10 it?

11 A. I really don't know about that.

12 Q. You remember giving evidence about your friends teasing you about

13 being Bogdan Vujic's security?

14 A. Correct.

15 Q. And you have told us that Vujic had made a suggestion in his

16 statement that you had a gun on your knee. Do you remember that evidence?

17 A. I read that in his statement that he gave to the investigator from

18 The Hague, the first statement he gave, in his apartment.

19 Q. Forgive me asking this question. I don't mean to be insensitive.

20 You have told us that you are a widower. When did your wife die, please,

21 which year?

22 A. 2004.

23 Q. When Vujic showed you this statement, was it before or after your

24 wife's death?

25 A. I think it was before.

Page 14851

1 Q. Can I read to you from Vujic's statement that he gave to the OTP?

2 And this is the only statement that he gave to the OTP. To assist my

3 learned friends, it's paragraph 51. It's English 26 of 40. I'm just

4 going to read a small part. "On my return to the Velepromet at about

5 10.30 or 11.00, I met Branko Korica in the office of Captain First Class

6 Borisavljevic as agreed. In the room there was another captain armed with

7 a semi-automatic machine-gun standing next to the telephone on which he

8 spoke several times but I don't know to whom."

9 That is the only reference to a gun that involves you or is close

10 to your name, and it is attributed to another person, not you. Might I

11 suggest you have -- might have made a mistake on that point?

12 A. No, Mr. Prosecutor. I read that too. I read it myself. Now,

13 whether he gave this, he said that he gave this statement to the

14 investigator from The Hague, but I don't know who he gave statements to,

15 all these people, to the military court, the special court, the

16 investigator from The Hague. But I read what he said, where he says,

17 "When I first came to Velepromet I found Branko Korica sitting there in

18 an armchair with a rifle on his knees."

19 I am sorry but this is literally what I said to him, "Comrade

20 Colonel, are you crazy? I never had a long weapon in my hands." No

21 rifle. I can prove that. I never had that.

22 You can see in the passes -- my passes that I had there. Bogdan

23 Vujic, if he stated that, he didn't find me in an office with some captain

24 who I had never seen. We came together from the hospital to Velepromet at

25 this hour that he referred to, that is correct, that is true.

Page 14852

1 Q. Well, all I'm suggesting to you is that there is no reference in

2 the one statement that he made for the Office of the Prosecutor to you

3 having a gun. So I just suggest that to you in fairness.

4 You have also said that Mr. Vujic, Bogdan Vujic, referred to buses

5 and had asked you about how many buses there were. Do you remember giving

6 that evidence?

7 A. I said that, that he asked me that. He asked me in the

8 street. "Do you know how many buses there were when we were taking those

9 people out?" And I said, "I have no idea where the buses were." And he

10 said, "Well, out there behind the barracks, how many were there?" And I

11 said, "I have no idea."

12 That's the only thing he asked me about the buses and that was the

13 only answer I gave.

14 Q. And that, as far as you can recollect, was one year after you had

15 been to Vukovar. That is right, isn't it? That's your evidence?

16 A. Most probably, a year me.

17 MR. MOORE: Would Your Honour forgive me one moment, please.

18 [Prosecution counsel confer]


20 Q. I seem to remember from your evidence that you remained in the

21 Vukovar area until approximately the 15th of March, 1992. Is that right?

22 A. Right.

23 Q. What was your task throughout that period?

24 A. We were going around Vukovar, we were going around the entire

25 territory. We conducted interviews with many persons. We found many

Page 14853

1 documents. I have already mentioned that notebook concerning minefields.

2 That's how we found other reports of the military police of the Croatian

3 army, where it says report of the military police, number 16, such and

4 such a date, number 1, arrested because he was a Serb, because he has zero

5 blood group, RH negative, consult Vesna Bosanac and so on and so forth,

6 why they were arrested and so on. There were quite a few documents of

7 that nature.

8 Q. Thank you for that. You told us that, and I quote, you don't have

9 such a good name -- such a good head for names. Do you remember saying

10 that?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. You were at Velepromet for three hours basically on the night of

13 the 19th, and you stayed with Vujic principally on the 20 at Velepromet.

14 That is right, isn't it?

15 A. Correct.

16 Q. Could you just help me in one matter? Why is it through your

17 evidence, on at least two occasions, you referred to the head of the TO by

18 his Christian name, Ljubinko, as opposed to his surname? Did you get to

19 know him in the three-month period?

20 A. We called him Ljubinko, and I wasn't sure whether his last name

21 was Stojic or Stojanovic. However, we all addressed him as Ljubinko. I

22 knew him as Ljubinko, and I saw that he played the main role in

23 Velepromet.

24 Q. Would it be right to say that you spoke to him after the 20th of

25 November in the period that you remained there, up until March 1992?

Page 14854

1 A. No. I didn't talk to Ljubinko anymore. I talked more at the

2 hospital.

3 Q. So the use of the Christian name to Ljubinko was because of your

4 contact with him on the evening of the 19th; is that right?

5 A. On the 19th and on the 20th.

6 Q. When did you meet him on the 20th?

7 A. I think I saw him before the government meeting, because Vujic and

8 I came and we walked around the compound and went back to the office. I

9 think Ljubinko was in this other office. I saw him go there but we didn't

10 talk to him.

11 Q. So if you didn't talk to him, you wouldn't have been calling him

12 by his name, would you?

13 A. I called him by his first name because we talked quite a bit on

14 the previous day, and because he intervened there while Vujic held this

15 meeting with the others in an office. He needed some vehicle. His friend

16 got killed, I know he was shouting there, saying something, "You are

17 holding these meetings and I haven't got a vehicle for my friend."

18 Q. What do you mean about his friend got killed and he was shouting

19 something? When did that occur?

20 A. It happened when we arrived in Velepromet and while Vujic had this

21 meeting with the others in the office. I was not at that meeting. I was

22 outside. That's how I saw him intervene. He said, "Where are these

23 people?" And somebody said, "At the meeting." And then he barged in

24 through the door and then he started shouting from the door, saying, "You

25 are holding these meetings here, and my friend got killed and I need a

Page 14855

1 vehicle." And that's why the meeting ended sooner.

2 Q. You say that you had dealings with Mr. Basic. Were you aware that

3 in a report that he submitted that he indicated in that report that there

4 was liquidation of Croat populations by Chetniks and members of the Seselj

5 group? Were you aware of that in your period in Vukovar until March?

6 A. No.

7 Q. Dealing with the radio that you found through that period, it is

8 right to say that the radio was not in the hospital but was beside a

9 watchmaker's in a built-up area close to the hospital. That is right,

10 isn't it?

11 A. This radio was opposite the hospital, across the street. It

12 wasn't in the hospital. It was across the street in a completely

13 different row of houses, in a yard, next door to the watchmaker's shop.

14 That was the area that had been mined but we didn't know. We discovered

15 it only the next day.

16 Q. Various people from the Office of the Prosecutor, including

17 myself, came to Belgrade in the middle of September of this -- of this

18 year because summonses had been issued. Now, there were four summonses

19 issued. One was for Mr. Susic, who will be giving evidence;

20 Mr. Kijanovic, who came to OTP office and signed a statement, he will be

21 giving evidence; and Mr. Karanfilov will be giving evidence. And they all

22 came to see the people there. There was a summons issued for you. Did

23 you receive that summons?

24 A. I never got the summons. I never heard of the summons being sent

25 to me either.

Page 14856

1 Q. So you have no knowledge of the summons being given to your son to

2 give to you; is that correct?

3 A. I don't know about that but I believe that my son would have told

4 me. I don't believe that the summons was handed to him.

5 Q. Were you in Belgrade between the 15th and the 18th of September of

6 this year?

7 A. Between the 15th and the 18th of September? No. I was at my

8 weekend cottage in Novi Slankamen. That's 50 kilometres away from

9 Belgrade.

10 Q. Can I suggest the following to you, or perhaps there should be one

11 more question. How were you contacted by the Defence team of

12 Mr. Sljivancanin? Was that through official channels?

13 A. First of all, Mr. Lukic called me on the telephone, and he asked

14 whether we could see each other in relation to giving evidence. I said

15 that we could when I come to Belgrade. Since he was spending very few

16 days in Belgrade, I came to his office the very next day and that's when

17 we talked for the first time. It wasn't anything official. Nothing was

18 being written down. I did not give any statement. Mr. Lukic sort of took

19 some notes but nothing official.

20 Q. So you explained to Mr. Lukic what it was you remembered; is that

21 right?

22 A. For the most part, yes, in brief terms.

23 Q. And how long did that interview or conversation last?

24 A. I think about an hour.

25 Q. And did he refer back to you about the topics under discussion, to

Page 14857

1 make sure that he had got it accurately?

2 A. Well, he didn't take me back to anything, but he mentioned to me

3 the possibility that I might testify before the Court, and I said, "If at

4 all possible, try to skip me. I like it better being at my weekend

5 cottage." But then he called me again and he says, "Well, it seems to me

6 you'll have to go."

7 Q. Would you have any objection to showing the Office of the

8 Prosecutor the document that was created from the information you gave?

9 A. I don't mind.

10 Q. Can I suggest to you the following. I would suggest to you that

11 at Velepromet, when you arrived, that Mr. Sljivancanin did make a comment

12 about possible killings in Velepromet, but I think it's right to say you

13 don't agree. Is that right?

14 A. Yes. That is right.

15 Q. I would equally suggest to you that at Velepromet, there was what

16 I will call perceptible violence which Vujic tried to stop and you were

17 aware of that.

18 A. I have to go back to that other thing. You said Sljivancanin,

19 Velepromet; no, no. I never saw Sljivancanin in Velepromet.

20 As for violence, the violence that was there, I did not understand

21 it that way, to be that kind of violence, as Vujic presented it, the use

22 of the BOV and whatever, no.

23 Q. At the hospital, I suggest that in actual fact Vujic did not

24 participate in this selection procedure, as you say.

25 A. I don't know what he did but I know that he took people out, just

Page 14858

1 like I did.

2 Q. And finally this: Did you know a gentleman called Colonel Panic,

3 who was the Chief of Staff of OG South at that time? Did you know his

4 name or were you able to recognise him?

5 A. I did not know of Panic then, nor do I remember having seen him.

6 Perhaps we did come across each other but I don't remember at all. I saw

7 Panic now, the one that you're asking me about, but I really do not

8 remember having seen him anywhere.

9 Q. And finally, I would suggest that there were threats against Vujic

10 being made at Velepromet and threats of severe violence to him. Do you

11 agree?

12 A. They talked about that to me. They threatened me as well.

13 However, we talked, we went next to each other. We stood shoulder to

14 shoulder, walking around Velepromet compound when this was happening.

15 Nobody pulled us by the arm or anything like that. Those were the

16 threats. That was the essence of the threats addressed to us, that we

17 were protecting Ustashas. They were angry at us. They said, "You

18 officers don't know what they did." And we said, "Yes, we know what they

19 did."

20 THE INTERPRETER: We didn't hear the last sentence of the witness.

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That was the essence of those

22 threats.


24 Q. Unfortunately, the interpreter didn't hear the last part of your

25 evidence. Could you repeat that?

Page 14859

1 A. I said that there was no serious threat towards myself. And as

2 for Vujic, I don't know what happened when I wasn't with him. I don't

3 know what kind of things they told him when I wasn't with him. But at the

4 time, when I was with him, it didn't happen. Nor did Vujic complain to me

5 about that, nor did I tell him anything of the sort.

6 MR. MOORE: Thank you very much indeed.

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You're welcome.

8 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you, Mr. Moore.

9 Mr. Lukic.

10 Re-examination by Lukic:

11 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Korica, would you like to have a break or

12 would you rather begin? I don't have long. Let me tell you that

13 straight.

14 A. Let us proceed.

15 Q. Very well. Let us first start with the questions that Mr. Moore

16 put to you. I'd like to clarify some of the issues raised by Mr. Moore

17 and Mr. Vasic.

18 Do you remember by any chance when was the first time I contacted

19 you? How long ago was that?

20 A. I can't remember exactly. Perhaps more than a year.

21 Q. The sentence concerning Chetniks slaughtering and Velepromet, when

22 was the first time I asked you that? Do you remember? What type of a

23 meeting and a conversation did we have? Did we meet?

24 A. No. You called me on the telephone but I don't remember now when

25 that was. I can't even give you a rough idea. It seems to me that it was

Page 14860

1 only month and a half ago, but if I put things in perspective and remember

2 what I did when I did, then it must have been prior to that, but I can't

3 tell you how long prior to that.

4 You called me on the phone and you asked me this: Is it true that

5 in Negoslavci, in the office where we were, Mr. Sljivancanin said that we

6 would see how Chetniks slaughter Ustashas but that we should disregard it,

7 we should not pay attention to it? I heard no such sentence and I don't

8 know when he could have uttered it. Sljivancanin was with us for five

9 minutes alone and we were there in a relatively small area, so I didn't

10 hear this.

11 Q. All right. I raised this with you during examination-in-chief but

12 let us cover this ground again. Were you with Mr. Vujic there when he

13 talked to Sljivancanin? It's a relatively small room.

14 A. He was always right next to me. He always stood right next to me.

15 Q. All right. Mr. Moore asked you whether your son might have

16 received some kind of a summons. Would you please tell Their Honours

17 this: While you were in your small -- in your weekend house, did somebody

18 come to your apartment? Did somebody come to your apartment and ask for

19 something, insist on something?

20 A. There is a girl who lives in my apartment. She lives there and

21 cleans the apartment. I also have a lady neighbour, and I'm on very good

22 terms with her. Since you had told me that there was a chance that I

23 would come and testify here, I asked these two women to go to my mail box

24 every day and check it, or if somebody called me on the phone, that they

25 should tell that person where I was; namely, at my weekend cottage.

Page 14861

1 However, nobody looked for me. Nobody came to the apartment

2 looking for me. Nor did anybody send any kind of a summons. I heard this

3 later on, and it was quite unpleasant, not only to me but to my entire

4 family, namely police came looking for me and it was the police from

5 Indjija. They didn't come to my weekend cottage in Slankamen. Rather,

6 they came to Cortanovci, which is a place near Novi Sad, and they also

7 looked for me in some other villages. They came across a relative of mine

8 whose son had been killed in this war and she got scared, and that's how

9 it was.

10 Q. All right. At any rate, the police came looking for you.

11 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I have an intervention

12 for the transcript, page 22, line 9, the witness said: "We were in a

13 small area, and God forbid that I should have heard everything else but

14 that." That's what the witness said.

15 THE INTERPRETER: Could Mr. Lukic please turn off his microphone

16 when the witness is speaking.

17 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

18 Q. You drew a sketch of the area in front of the hangar and the road

19 that you took to the hangar. How long did you spend that day at Ovcara?

20 A. Seven to eight, maximum ten minutes altogether.

21 Q. Did you ever go back to Ovcara ever again?

22 A. Never. Never again.

23 Q. Thank you. You said that that was around dusk. We don't need to

24 elaborate on that.

25 You said to Mr. Moore that it was difficult to discern the

Page 14862

1 uniforms, whether these people were members of the TO or soldiers, as you

2 were describing what you saw in front of the hangar?

3 A. Yes, and observing it from the car.

4 Q. At the entrance into the hangar, the people who stood there, what

5 kind of insignia did they have?

6 A. They were from the military police. One was a military policeman

7 and further from him there stood another two military policemen.

8 Q. Thank you. Mr. Moore also asked you about Ljubinko Stojanovic.

9 You said that you saw him twice and he asked you how come you knew his

10 first name.

11 My question: Throughout the three months that you stayed at

12 Vukovar, did you hear his name? Was he an important person there? Was

13 his name mentioned?

14 A. I saw that he was a relevant person in Velepromet. He was

15 important there. And as for Vukovar, when we contacted people, for

16 example, in the hospital, in the staffs of local communes and so on,

17 nobody mentioned him there.

18 Q. Thank you. Now, let us go back to the questions that were raised

19 yesterday. On page 14787, I'm giving this reference for the Trial

20 Chamber, Mr. Moore suggested to you that pursuant to the instructions you

21 had received from Babic, you had no command responsibility and you

22 confirmed that.

23 Now let me ask you this: What are the relations between security

24 organs at different levels, given that you spent a lot of your work for

25 many years in that area?

Page 14863

1 A. When it comes to professional issues, then, yes. And as for

2 disciplinary issues, then they report to the commander.

3 Q. Thank you. When Babic told you to put on your uniform again, what

4 was your status in the JNA? Were you considered a reserve officer at the

5 time?

6 A. I was a reserve non-commissioned officer.

7 Q. Thank you.

8 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Could we now see Exhibit 107, which

9 are the rules of service of the security organs, Article 14; English

10 version page 9, and B/C/S version page 8. Could that be please placed in

11 front of the witness?

12 Q. You will see it on the screen, Mr. Korica.

13 I suppose that you remember this document. This was something you

14 were all very familiar with. I'm reading Article 14: "Members of

15 security organs from the reserve strength of the armed forces, when called

16 up for exercises, or verify combat readiness and other activity in combat

17 units of the armed forces and perform tasks within the competence of the

18 security organs in accordance with the regulations on the work of security

19 organs."

20 Did I read this out correctly?

21 A. Correctly.

22 Q. When you were told to put on your uniform, were you able to

23 refuse? Just yes or no.

24 A. Had that been ordered to me, I would have been unable to refuse.

25 However, this was under different circumstances. This was just a simple

Page 14864

1 conversation. But I took it seriously so there was no need for that.

2 Q. I apologise to the interpreters for not switching my microphone

3 off. I hear that there are problems with that.

4 Who was your immediate superior in Sid?

5 A. Dragan Muncan.

6 Q. Who was his immediate superior?

7 A. Colonel Ljubisa Petkovic. He's now deceased.

8 Q. Do you happen to know who was immediate superior to Tomic,

9 Kijanovic and Vujic? Do you know that? Before they arrived in Sid, from

10 wherever they had arrived?

11 A. I don't know where they had arrived from, and I don't know who

12 their superior was.

13 Q. Thank you. You said a bit earlier to Mr. Moore that Muncan told

14 you that he had reported to Petkovic upon his arrival in Sid.

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Before arriving in Sid, did Muncan submit any kind of report to

17 anyone in the course of those two days? Did you hear about that?

18 A. I didn't, and I don't know about that.

19 Q. Thank you. When you left from Velepromet, heading towards Ovcara

20 and then further on to Sid, did you report to anyone saying, "We are on

21 our way to Ovcara now" or not?

22 A. I don't know whether Muncan contacted anyone in the barracks

23 telling them that he would go to Ovcara as well. I don't know about that.

24 He didn't tell us anything.

25 Q. But you didn't go to Negoslavci; that's what I understood.

Page 14865

1 A. No, we didn't go to Negoslavci at all. We went straight to Sid,

2 and we didn't meet with this group consisting of Vujic, Kijanovic and

3 Tomic.

4 Q. Thank you. Yesterday, you said twice, first to Vasic and then on

5 page 7 of the draft transcript, and then to Mr. Moore on page 42, that

6 both in Velepromet and at the hospital your immediate superior was Bogdan

7 Vujic. Remember saying that?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. All right. Then on page 44, Mr. Moore asked you whether, when

10 Sljivancanin told you in the car on the way to the hospital about the

11 upcoming activities, you said that it was in the form of a proposal, a

12 suggestion, and when the Prosecutor asked you whether an order and a

13 proposal have the same effect, you answered yes. I just gave you this in

14 order to remind you of it.

15 My question to you is: How long did you spend in the army,

16 Mr. Korica?

17 A. I misspoke.

18 Q. No, no, no. Just tell me first how long did you spend in the

19 army.

20 A. 33 years altogether.

21 Q. During the 33 years of your service in the army, did you ever hear

22 that a major ordered something to a colonel?

23 A. No, no.

24 Q. During the 33 years of your service in the army, did you ever hear

25 a major propose something to a colonel?

Page 14866

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. All right. Let us proceed. Yesterday Mr. Moore put to you

3 statements of various persons describing terrible things from Velepromet,

4 the stories that they told here, which, according to their evidence,

5 happened perhaps not at the same time but the same evening when you

6 arrived. During the course of that evening, did you hear from anyone in

7 Velepromet stories about something of that sort happening prior to your

8 arrival?

9 A. I neither heard nor saw traces of any such crime. I don't know

10 whether it did take place indeed or not.

11 Q. The persons whose name you wrote down in the buses - I guess you

12 went from one to the other one and then wrote down their buses - did you

13 observe on any one of them, any injuries, anything that would indicate

14 that force had been used?

15 A. No, I didn't see anything, not in relation to a single person.

16 Didn't see a single scratch.

17 Q. What was their mood like? You are a professional, after all. You

18 can certainly sense when a person is experiencing fear, when a person is

19 intimidated, anxious or anything of the sort. Do you remember that?

20 A. Yes. I remember. I looked all of them in the eye. What can I

21 tell you? People are different. Some people sat there, they were

22 relaxed, they gave me their particulars without any problem. And then

23 there were people who were tense. It was an unpleasant atmosphere but

24 what could we do about it?

25 Q. Thank you. Mr. Moore, on page 73 of the draft transcript asked

Page 14867

1 you yesterday about your return from Velepromet to Negoslavci. You said

2 that you went to have a dinner briefly and then returned to the operations

3 room where you stayed until the following morning.

4 My question is: While you ate in that basement, where was Bogdan

5 Vujic?

6 A. I'm not sure, but I think that he was in the basement as well, and

7 that he opened a can, too, but my memory is not quite clear on this.

8 Q. How long did you stay in that basement? Could you estimate?

9 A. Half an hour at the most.

10 Q. And the rest of time you were upstairs in that operations room;

11 correct?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Can you tell us how long did you sleep that night?

14 A. I don't think I slept more than an hour, because at one point I

15 fell asleep and then I woke up and I saw General Crmaric next to me and

16 then I started talking to him.

17 Q. At any point in time, ever since you walked into that command

18 building in Negoslavci, until the next morning, when you went to the

19 hospital, did you ever see Sljivancanin?

20 A. No. And I'm not sure that I saw Colonel Mrksic either.

21 Q. You were asked about making these lists, and you described the

22 first evening in Velepromet and then the next day in the hospital. Can

23 you remind us what time of day was it when you were making lists in

24 Velepromet?

25 A. When we were making lists in Velepromet, it was, I think,

Page 14868

1 after 11.00, around midnight almost.

2 Q. A moment ago you said that you think that you left the hospital

3 around 10.00 on the next day.

4 A. Yes. That's what I said. As for time, I cannot say --

5 Q. It will mean something to us. It will help all the participants

6 in the proceedings. Do you remember yesterday, did you see Sljivancanin

7 in the hospital at one moment talking to the representatives of the

8 international community?

9 A. In front of the hospital.

10 Q. Thank you. I believe that that will be sufficient for all of us

11 so that we can focus in terms of time.

12 THE INTERPRETER: Could Mr. Lukic please switch off his microphone

13 when the witness is speaking, asks the interpreter.

14 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

15 Q. Now I'm talking about the 20th, the triage. Did you hear Vujic

16 asking for lists to be made of the persons who are taken out?

17 A. No, he didn't ask for a list to be made and he didn't make them

18 either.

19 Q. Thank you. I just have one more topic to deal with, and it's the

20 briefcase that you talked about.

21 We all heard Mr. Vujic's testimony and you read his statement.

22 That's what you said. You said that you were familiar with the statement?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. On page 4545, Your Honours.

25 Let me ask you first, what did you do with the briefcase

Page 14869

1 ultimately?

2 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

3 A. Since I did not see Vujic anymore that day, I stayed in

4 Velepromet. I was picked up by Muncan, we went to Ovcara and directly to

5 Sid, and they stayed on in the barracks, so I did not hand that briefcase

6 over to the police immediately. It remained with me. I took it to Sid.

7 Two or three days later, I went to Sremska Mitrovica, and I took

8 this briefcase, and although it was in the evening, I looked for

9 Bogdan Vujic, found him, gave him that briefcase and asked him to see what

10 this group of prisoners -- or, rather, these people who were brought in on

11 those four buses to see whether these people were perhaps there and to

12 have this handed over to them and, if not, to send it or to take it to the

13 security administration and that is indeed what he did.

14 Q. When Mr. Vujic testified here, as I said, on page 4545, and in his

15 statement given to the OTP that he said that he showed to you, he mentions

16 that in this briefcase there was an ID and other documents with the name

17 of Vladomir Vodopija. You said you were not very good with names, but

18 does this jog your memory? Is that perhaps one of the names that you

19 found in this document, Vodopija Vladomir?

20 A. Possibly. But Vujic did not even look at the bag, not -- he

21 didn't look at a single one of the documents that I was writing down.

22 Now, whether he did that in Sremska Mitrovica, if he did that in

23 Sremska Mitrovica opened the bag then he certainly could have remembered

24 that name but --

25 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, could we now please have

Page 14870

1 the following document placed on the screen? 2D 050049, the lists of

2 prisoners in the Sremska Mitrovica prison.

3 MR. MOORE: I'm sorry.

4 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] It's an official document.

5 MR. MOORE: I don't quite follow how this arises out of

6 cross-examination.

7 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I think that Mr. Moore focused on the

8 briefcase and the documents in the briefcase for quite a while, and

9 whether these persons were persons who had been killed. Those were his

10 questions. Now I would just like to show the witness a document where

11 this -- where one of these people was, one of the persons whose documents

12 were in that briefcase, because he said that he took the briefcase to

13 Sremska Mitrovica.

14 JUDGE PARKER: I'm sorry, I don't yet see how that's going to be a

15 matter arising from cross-examination. There was certainly question about

16 the contents of the briefcase, and they were identified, but nobody went

17 into any identifications of anybody. It was merely a briefcase with

18 certain contents. They were identified by the witness on his own notes,

19 and he then was to deliver them to Belgrade I think was all that was dealt

20 with.

21 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] May I find the relevant transcript

22 page, Your Honour? The core of Mr. Moore's question was what did

23 Borisavljevic say, where was the bag found? And the witness said it

24 was -- that he heard that it was found behind the hangar, and then

25 Mr. Moore asked the witness whether it was possible that these persons

Page 14871

1 whose IDs were found had been killed. That's the subject. And that is

2 why I'm dealing with it in redirect, since the witness took the bag to

3 Sremska Mitrovica, whether he knows the name of the person whose ID was

4 taken in the bag to Sremska Mitrovica. That is the subject. Vujic

5 testified about that too.

6 JUDGE PARKER: There was a speculative question about who the

7 possible owners might be. Now, how does what you are doing arise from

8 that?

9 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, if you remember,

10 Mr. Korica, when he was giving his answer to that question of Mr. Moore's

11 he said, first of all, that he thinks that at that time documents were

12 taken away from people at check-points. He heard about that. And that

13 they had information about these documents who were taken away from people

14 although these people survived, because Mr. Moore asked whether it was

15 possible that these persons had been killed. And the witness said that it

16 was his own experience that sometimes people's documents were simply taken

17 away from them.

18 I am dealing with this now because -- I don't want to say too much

19 in front of the witness, but he asked just to see whether the man is

20 alive, the man whose ID was in that bag. That is what stems from those

21 questions.

22 JUDGE PARKER: It's come sufficiently clear to me, Mr. Lukic, that

23 you may go ahead.

24 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I apologise once again. My train of

25 thought, it seems to be too complicated, but could we please have the

Page 14872

1 document on the screen, 2D 050049.

2 Q. See, Mr. Korica, can you read the name under 1563, what it says?

3 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please, interpreter's note.

4 A. Vladomir Vodopija. Probably his father's name is Ivan, 16/12/44.

5 THE INTERPRETER: Could Mr. Lukic please turn off his microphone.

6 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Could we have this moved to the left a

7 bit, please, although probably this won't mean ...

8 Q. Actually, can you say in view of your own experience what this

9 next thing should be?

10 A. Personal identification number probably.

11 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreters cannot hear the witness.

12 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I'm not sure, but it

13 seems to me that all the lists of prisoners in Sremska Mitrovica have

14 already become an exhibit, but I'm not sure. I tried to check this with

15 my associates, but if not, then I would like to tender this, please.

16 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Lukic, there is another leap that I have

17 missed. On what basis do you say this is presently admissible?

18 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I asked the witness whether he

19 remembered whether this refreshes his memory, when he looked at that

20 briefcase, whether he finds this name Vladomir Vodopija to be familiar as

21 one of the people whose ID was in that bag, and the witness said that it

22 was possible. I asked him in the beginning.

23 But at first, Your Honour, Mr. Vujic testified about that on

24 page 4545, and he said that this man had been director of the waterworks.

25 [Trial Chamber confers]

Page 14873

1 JUDGE PARKER: Any submission, Mr. Moore?

2 MR. MOORE: My recollection is that my learned friend is right

3 about the head of the waterworks in Vukovar. But I do not remember this

4 being put to Mr. Vujic, what he had done with the document, whether he

5 ever got the document, and whether this process was followed with

6 Mr. Vujic. I could see it being admissible arguably in relation to that

7 witness, but not with regard to this witness, because it has a basis of

8 speculation, of what is capable.

9 [Trial Chamber confers]

10 JUDGE PARKER: The document will be received, Mr. Lukic.

11 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit 858, Your Honours.

12 JUDGE PARKER: But don't get over-enthusiastic about what you have

13 managed because we see a number of factual difficulties.

14 MR. MOORE: Your Honour, I'm sorry, it's my fault. I thought Your

15 Honour was asking in relation to the nature of the question.

16 The document itself, I for my part cannot remember the provenance

17 of the document.

18 JUDGE PARKER: We are conscious of that and that was part of the

19 reason for my last cautionary words.

20 MR. MOORE: Might I respectfully submit for it to be marked for

21 identification until such time as we clarify exactly what the provenance

22 is? I'm sorry for not submitting it earlier. I thought Your Honour was

23 asking in relation to the other matter.

24 JUDGE PARKER: At the moment you dispute the provenance of the

25 document. Is that the point?

Page 14874

1 MR. MOORE: I'd like to see what the provenance is before I even

2 dispute it. I don't dispute just for the sake of it.

3 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] May I be of assistance?

4 This is an official document of the government of the Republic of

5 Croatia submitted to us by the OTP. I think that the document has about

6 20 pages, and I think that it followed the documentation of Mr. Grujic

7 about those camps where Croats were detained, but this was part of his

8 expertise.

9 One page of this document, I think, we admitted into evidence

10 as P030, and it was Exhibit 273. Or, rather, 133. Exhibit 133 and

11 Exhibit 273. See how many people I have working with me?

12 These are parts of this big list that we showed witnesses earlier

13 on and they were admitted into evidence. It's a long list. It has to do

14 with prisoners who were in prison in Sremska Mitrovica from Vukovar.

15 There are others, too, prison in Valjevo, there are quite a few

16 correctional facilities referred to. But what I referred to just now are

17 two exhibits with identical details concerning other persons.

18 Thank you, Your Honours. I have no further questions of this

19 witness.

20 I don't know whether this has been sufficient to remind Mr. Moore

21 of these documents, what I said just now.

22 JUDGE PARKER: The document has been admitted as exhibit. There

23 will be leave to Mr. Moore to raise objections to the provenance of that

24 admission, should he wish to bring the matter forward.

25 Mr. Korica, you'll be pleased to know that in the middle of all of

Page 14875

1 that, we came to the end of your evidence. Mr. Lukic has no further

2 questions, and we would like to thank you for coming to The Hague and for

3 the assistance that you have given us. And you are now free, of course,

4 to go back to your home and your other interests.

5 Thank you very much indeed. The court officer will show you out

6 when we rise.

7 We will now adjourn and will resume at a quarter past.

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you, too.

9 [The witness withdrew]

10 --- Recess taken at 3.52 p.m.

11 [The witness entered court]

12 --- On resuming at 4.17 p.m.

13 JUDGE PARKER: Good afternoon, sir. Would you please read aloud

14 the affirmation on the card given to you now.

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak

16 the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth.


18 [Witness answered through interpreter]

19 JUDGE PARKER: Please sit down.

20 Mr. Bulatovic has some questions for you.

21 MR. BULATOVIC: [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Your Honours.

22 Good afternoon to everyone in the courtroom.

23 Examination by Mr. Bulatovic:

24 Q. [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Mr. Susic. For the sake of the

25 quality of the interpretation of our exchanges here, I would like to

Page 14876

1 kindly ask you to make a pause after hearing my question before proceeding

2 with your answer, and then to speak slowly so that the interpreters can

3 interpret what you are saying. Did you understand?

4 A. Understood.

5 Q. Mr. Susic, would you please give us your full name, last name,

6 date and place of birth?

7 A. Jovan Susic, born on the 13th of April, 1957, in the village of

8 Bukovica, Savnik municipality, Montenegro.

9 Q. Mr. Susic, we are now going to cover your military career and if

10 you can just confirm to me whether what I'm saying is correct.

11 Is it true that currently and starting from 2004, you have been

12 holding the position of a chief within the Ministry of the Defence of

13 Serbia?

14 A. I now worked in the inspectorate of the Ministry of Defence, as a

15 chief there.

16 Q. As a chief there, all right. In 1989, you completed the military

17 academy, department for land forces?

18 A. Correct.

19 Q. From 1985 to 1989, you were commander of a military police company

20 within the Guards Brigade. What years?

21 A. It was 1982 to 1985.

22 Q. In that case I got it wrong, I noted it down wrong, when we

23 talked.

24 A. And I completed my military academy in 1982.

25 Q. All right. And then from 1991 to 1994, you were commander of the

Page 14877

1 1st Battalion of the military police within the Guards Brigade; correct?

2 A. Correct.

3 Q. Starting in this 1994 to 1996, you attended training within the

4 military staff academy?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Then for two years, you served as battalion commander of military

7 police for anti-terrorist activity of the 72nd Brigade --

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. -- from 1996 to 1998. And then in 2000 and 2001, you once again

10 attended training at the national school for defence?

11 A. Correct.

12 Q. And then you became chief of the department for operations and

13 planning within the Ministry of Defence?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. And we know about your current position. What's your rank?

16 A. Colonel.

17 Q. Mr. Susic, we are now going to turn to the events in Vukovar and

18 to some key days that will be of interest to all of us here.

19 Do you know what position you held immediately before the Guards

20 Brigade was deployed to Vukovar?

21 A. Immediately before the Guards Brigade left Vukovar, I was deputy

22 commander of the 1st Battalion of military police of the Guards Brigade.

23 Q. Mr. Susic, would you please slow down for the sake of

24 interpretation.

25 Can you explain to us when you went to Vukovar and whether you

Page 14878

1 were immediately involved in any operations?

2 A. We went to Vukovar on the 30th of September, 1991. Our battalion

3 was tasked with providing security to the Guards Brigade on its march from

4 Belgrade to Negoslavci. Further on, to provide security to the units

5 in -- until they reached their area of deployment and then to provide

6 security to the command of the Guards Brigade, as well as to various

7 transports and columns.

8 Q. Mr. Susic, where was the headquarters of the Guards Brigade

9 command?

10 A. In the village of Negoslavci.

11 Q. Mr. Susic, can you tell us something about the composition,

12 establishment composition of the 1st Battalion of military police?

13 A. The composition of the 1st Military Police Battalion comprised the

14 command, signals section, crime section, section for sabotage protection,

15 the 1st Company of armoured vehicles, the 2nd Company of armoured

16 vehicles, military police company, anti-terrorist company of military

17 police, traffic company of military police, logistics platoon, and a

18 special auto platoon which was not involved in combat.

19 Q. Would you tell me, please, the 1st Military Police Battalion, did

20 it come to Vukovar with full strength, establishment strength?

21 A. Yes, it did, except for the special auto platoon which was not

22 engaged in combat.

23 Q. You said that within the composition of the 1st Military Police

24 Battalion there were two companies of armoured vehicles. Would you give

25 us names of commanders of those companies?

Page 14879

1 A. Commander of the 1st Company of armoured vehicles was Lieutenant

2 Ranko Bojic, and the second one was commanded by Captain Mladen

3 Predojevic.

4 Q. Who was assistant for moral guidance in the 1st Military Police

5 Battalion?

6 A. Assistant for moral guidance was Captain Bozic, Mile.

7 Q. Can you tell us how you came to be appointed commander of the

8 1st Military Police Battalion?

9 A. I became commander of the 1st Military Police Battalion on the

10 1st of November, 1991, due to the illness of the commander, Major

11 Branislav Kavalic, who was sent for treatment to the military medical

12 academy in Belgrade.

13 Q. Mr. Susic, would you please slow down so that the interpreters can

14 be sure to catch everything you say.

15 You said something initially and I would like to clarify this.

16 Upon your arrival in Vukovar, what were the tasks of the 1st Military

17 Police Battalion, the tasks of the battalion as well as the units within

18 its establishment composition. Slowly and clearly, please.

19 A. Upon arrival in Negoslavci, the task of the battalion was to

20 provide security to the command of the Guards Brigade. In addition, it

21 was to escort the column from Belgrade to Negoslavci and back. Also to

22 provide traffic, security of the logistics -- or, rather, rear command

23 post of the brigade which was located in --

24 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreters didn't hear the name of the

25 place.

Page 14880

1 MR. BULATOVIC: [Interpretation]

2 Q. Did the 1st Military Police Battalion have its own command?

3 A. Yes, it did, in Negoslavci.

4 MR. BULATOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, intervention for the

5 transcript. I think the interpreters didn't hear the answer concerning

6 the rear command post of the Guards Brigade, secured by the 1st Military

7 Police Battalion so could the witness please repeat where was the rear

8 command post of the Guards Brigade.

9 Q. Mr. Susic, please wait for me to complete my question and then

10 slowly proceed with your answer.

11 Would you please tell us where the rear command post was?

12 A. The rear command post of the Guards Brigade was in Berak.

13 Q. When you were appointed commander of the 1st Military Police

14 Battalion, where was your command post?

15 A. My command post was also located in Negoslavci, but our forward

16 command post was in the barracks in Vukovar, and this is where I was the

17 entire time.

18 Q. Could you explain, Mr. Susic, why this forward command post

19 existed in the barracks and why did you spend time there?

20 A. The forward command post existed within the command because after

21 the first, the anti-terrorist company was deployed back to combat on the

22 axis Rusinska-Crkva, fire brigade, Supanc school, water-tower, between the

23 1st and 2nd Assault Detachments. Due to this, it was necessary to have a

24 command post that would be located closer to the combat unit.

25 Q. Mr. Susic, could you please explain the chain of command within

Page 14881

1 the 1st Military Police Battalion?

2 A. Within the 1st Military Police Battalion, the chain of command

3 went from the commander towards company commanders and from them towards

4 platoon commanders. As for myself, as commander I received my tasks from

5 the commander of the Guards Brigade.

6 Q. In addition to the commander of the Guards Brigade, did you

7 receive any additional orders or tasks from any other officer?

8 A. I could not receive orders from anyone else but the commander of

9 the Guards Brigade. It wasn't typical for anyone to interfere in the

10 command process.

11 Q. The tasks you received from the commander of the Guards Brigade,

12 how did you receive them, orally, in writing? Would you please explain

13 that to us?

14 A. We received the tasks from the commander both verbally, in

15 writing, and via telephone.

16 Q. What did you do upon receiving a task? Did you proceed, based on

17 that task?

18 A. When one receives a task from the commander, then one proceeds

19 with its implementation.

20 Q. The means of implementing a task, did you work on it yourself,

21 with whom, and how?

22 A. Yes. We analysed and worked on the task with the forces that were

23 supposed to implement it. First with the command of the 1st Military

24 Battalion and then with the commanders of various companies and so on.

25 Q. Were there any briefings in the command of the Guards Brigade and,

Page 14882

1 if so, when were they held? Was it on a daily basis? I'm interested also

2 in the time of the day, and would you please explain to us the procedure.

3 A. Briefings were held daily at 1800 hours at the command of the

4 brigade -- at the command post of the brigade. Briefings were attended

5 by the commander, assistant commanders, and battalion commanders. First

6 commander would brief or, rather, describe certain activities; and then

7 later on, battalion commanders informed about their positions, any

8 requirements that they had and so on. These briefings lasted from one to

9 two hours approximately.

10 MR. BULATOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, can we turn into

11 private session, please.

12 JUDGE PARKER: Private.

13 [Private session]

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 14883











11 Pages 14883-14885 redacted. Private session.















Page 14886

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 [Open session]

9 THE REGISTRAR: We are in open session, Your Honours.

10 MR. BULATOVIC: [Interpretation]

11 Q. Mr. Susic, this task, on the 18th, for part of this company, you

12 said was issued by the commander of the Guards Brigade, Mrksic. Can you

13 describe how come you know about that?

14 A. When Captain Maric was given the task of going to Ovcara and to

15 check what the accommodation of the prisoners from the Mitnica Battalion

16 was like, he informed me that this was a task that he had received from

17 Commander Mrksic.

18 Q. Was this the usual way of command?

19 A. No. It is not the usual one but it is possible to handle things

20 that way. The commander, as in komandant, can issue tasks to the

21 commander, as in komandir.

22 Q. In a commander who is not the immediate superior issues a task,

23 what does the subordinate person do?

24 A. Since I did not issue that order to him, Maric reported to me that

25 he was given this task by the brigade commander.

Page 14887

1 Q. Mr. Susic, on the 18th, the date you remember as the date of the

2 fall of Vukovar, did you perhaps have some other tasks or not? Any

3 particular tasks?

4 A. No particular tasks.

5 Q. A few moments ago you spoke about the briefings that were held

6 around 1800 hours in Negoslavci, as you said, and you said that you

7 attended these briefings. Do you remember whether you were there on the

8 19th of November, 1991 at the briefing at the command?

9 A. I remember I was at the briefing.

10 Q. Were you given any concrete tasks for the 19th?

11 A. Nothing particular for the 19th except for my own unit concerning

12 its further work.

13 Q. Do you remember whether evacuation was mentioned, the evacuation

14 of the hospital, at the briefing of the 19th?

15 A. I do not remember.

16 Q. Do you remember whether Veselin Sljivancanin was present at that

17 briefing?

18 A. I think he wasn't.

19 Q. Mr. Susic, I didn't ask you who the commander of the barracks in

20 Vukovar was.

21 A. The commander of the barracks in Vukovar was Major Branislav

22 Lukic, commander of the 2nd Assault Detachment.

23 Q. Was that where the command post of the 2nd Assault Detachment was,

24 there, at the barracks?

25 A. Yes. That's where it was. The command post of the 2nd Assault

Page 14888

1 Detachment.

2 Q. A few moments ago, when you spoke about two armoured -- or,

3 rather, two platoons, or, rather, two companies of armoured vehicles, you

4 mentioned the name of Mladen Predojevic. Where was Mladen Predojevic in

5 terms of the headquarters of his unit?

6 A. Mladen Predojevic was attached to the 2nd Assault Detachment on

7 the 4th of October and he remained within the composition of the

8 2nd Assault Detachment up until the return on the 24th of November, and

9 that unit provided security for the barracks and the command of the

10 2nd JOD.

11 Q. Let me ask you: Did you have any particular activities on

12 the 19th?

13 A. On the 19th of November, I didn't have any particular activities,

14 except for preparing the unit, clearing the terrain, the usual type of

15 activity.

16 Q. Let us move on to this date that is of greatest interest for us

17 here, and that is the 20th of November, 1991. Do you remember, Mr. Susic,

18 where you were on the 20th of November, 1991, in the morning hours?

19 A. On the 20th of November, 1991, I was in the Vukovar barracks.

20 Q. Did you have any activities in the barracks before 10.00 in the

21 morning?

22 A. I had my regular activities, as I did on the previous day.

23 Q. Did these activities entail leaving the office in the command

24 within the barracks? Did it involve moving about the barracks compound?

25 A. Well, yes, because then you cannot only stay in the barracks and

Page 14889

1 in the office only. I had to go out. I had this signals vehicle that was

2 outside. And that is how I kept up my communication with the units.

3 Q. Can you tell us about these activities that you've just referred

4 to? At what time was this, roughly, in the morning?

5 A. Roughly from 7.00 until 10.00.

6 Q. In that period of time, from 7.00 until 10.00, did you notice that

7 within the barracks, within the barracks compound, there were any

8 civilians, armed civilians, or anybody else apart from the people who have

9 to be within barracks?

10 A. There was no one there from the outside.

11 Q. So we can conclude that the situation was normal and peaceful?

12 A. That's right, quite normal.

13 Q. Captain Predojevic is in the barracks. On that day in the

14 morning, did you have any contact with him and, if so, what was that

15 contact?

16 A. Sometime between 10.00 and 11.00, Predojevic called me and told me

17 that he had some problems in securing some buses with civilians.

18 Q. What did you do?

19 A. I went to the actual site where the buses were, and I saw the

20 following. In the barracks there were between four to five buses.

21 Civilians were sitting on the buses. In every bus, at the front door and

22 at the back door, there was a military policeman respectively. And around

23 the buses there were civilians, people wearing civilian clothes, some

24 people wearing uniforms, and some had a few weapons too.

25 Q. What were these civilians and armed people doing around the bus?

Page 14890

1 What was the problem?

2 A. The problem was that these civilians were verbally insulting the

3 persons who were on the buses. They were swearing at them. They were

4 recognising them, that some of them had killed some members of their

5 families or torched their houses and things like that.

6 MR. BULATOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I think that there is

7 no mention of it in the transcript so in order to avoid any kind of

8 communications, the numbers of persons around the buses, so could

9 Mr. Susic please repeat the structure of the civilians around the buses.

10 Q. How many people were there around the buses?

11 A. My free estimate is that there were about 50 of them. Some wore

12 civilian clothing. Out of these 50 or so, some wore civilian clothing,

13 some wore uniforms, and, well, there were even less of them who wore

14 uniforms and had weapons too.

15 Q. When you say in uniform, what uniform are you referring to? Was

16 it full uniform or was it what?

17 A. Full olive-green-grey uniform.

18 Q. You're an officer. If people have these uniforms, who do they

19 belong to, since they wear those uniforms?

20 A. They can belong to the Territorial Defence.

21 Q. All right. All right. So you see this commotion around the

22 buses, people are attacking. Was it only these verbal attacks or were

23 there other attempts that were made?

24 A. Only verbal attacks.

25 Q. So what did you do specifically, when you saw this entire

Page 14891

1 situation?

2 A. When I saw what the situation was, I returned to the building and

3 I called the brigade commander, Mrksic. I told him what the problem was,

4 the problem in the barracks, and he gave me the following order. "Create

5 full security for these persons who are on the buses. Now a meeting of

6 the government of the Krajina is underway, at which -- at which the

7 question of where they will be transported further is being resolved."

8 Q. Mr. Susic, can you explain to us why you called Colonel Mrksic?

9 A. I called Colonel Mrksic because this is a problem and a task that

10 I was not aware of beforehand, and what is the obligation of us in the

11 barracks vis-a-vis those buses?

12 Q. Mr. Susic, let's repeat this: Who is your superior?

13 A. My superior is Brigade Commander Mrksic.

14 Q. Can you explain, Mr. Susic, why Predojevic turned to you?

15 A. Predojevic turned to me because he was securing the barracks and

16 they were within the zone of his security.

17 Q. If I understand you correctly, the 2nd Company of APCs is from the

18 military police battalion; is that right?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Mr. Susic, you said that Major Lukic is the commander of the

21 barracks. Do you have any knowledge about that, whether Predojevic called

22 him as the officer who was in charge of the security of and the situation

23 in the barracks?

24 A. I don't know whether he turned to him, but later on I did see

25 Lukic there.

Page 14892

1 Q. Did Predojevic let you know about this or did he inform you about

2 it or not?

3 A. No, he didn't.

4 Q. I should like to know, Mr. Susic, what the atmosphere around the

5 buses was. You said that the buses were verbally attacked and that you

6 informed your commander, Colonel Mrksic, what this was about, you received

7 your order, and the information you were given. You went back and what

8 did you do next? Did you find the situation was the same, that the group

9 of people continued exhibiting aggressive behaviour towards those on the

10 buses?

11 A. As I went back to the buses, I found the situation was the same.

12 Q. Let me ask you this so that we don't have to go back to this

13 later. How long this conversation of yours with Colonel Mrksic lasted?

14 A. Two minutes at most, the conversation itself.

15 Q. As you went back, did you take any steps to protect the persons on

16 the bus or, rather, on the buses, those four or five buses?

17 A. I fully understood the order, and I immediately took the following

18 steps. I gave Predojevic the task of upgrading the strength of his troops

19 and of removing the group of people away from the buses and out of the

20 barracks compound.

21 Q. And were you successful in this?

22 A. Fully. About half an hour later, there wasn't a single civilian

23 left within the barracks compound. This situation was completely normal,

24 or returned fully to normal.

25 Q. Mr. Susic, as a person coming from the 1st Military Police

Page 14893

1 Battalion, you had at your disposal many methods and resources to secure

2 persons. What resources did you yourself use in making sure that the

3 persons were fully protected and the others were removed from the area?

4 A. Only a warning and order that they should leave the premises. We

5 increased the strength of our troops, who make sure that the civilians

6 left.

7 Q. Did you, Mr. Susic, see the buses arrive?

8 A. No. I didn't see the buses arrive, because I wasn't there.

9 Q. In relation to the call you received from Mr. Predojevic, could

10 you assess how long before that did the buses come?

11 A. They could have come sometime after 10.00.

12 Q. You said that you issued a warning and order for the persons to

13 leave the premises, the persons, civilians who were around the buses went

14 out of the barracks compound. Did they continue lingering there and, if

15 so, did they continue verbally insulting the persons on the buses?

16 A. No. No, the persons went out of the barracks compound and they

17 were no longer there.

18 Q. We heard that the persons on the buses were exposed to verbal

19 insults. Did the persons attack, verbally attack, any other persons, not

20 just the civilians on the buses?

21 A. They verbally attacked us as well. They were telling us that we

22 were commies, that we were protecting those others and that we could do

23 that quite easily because they had not killed any of our own nearest and

24 dearest, they had not destroyed any of our property. Nevertheless, I did

25 not think it necessary to use any other resources than a warning in an

Page 14894

1 order to leave the premises.

2 Q. Mr. Susic, you gauged that these actions you took were sufficient

3 to solve the problem you were faced with. Did you have the necessary

4 resources in the barracks in the event the behaviour exhibited was more

5 violent, other than the resources that you used?

6 A. We did. The military police company is equipped with truncheons,

7 armoured vehicles with a grille or, rather, it's like a fence that can

8 push the crowd back, all the way to the different weaponry, but those were

9 not necessary.

10 Q. Had that been necessary and had the security of the people within

11 the barracks compound been at stake, would you have employed the weapons?

12 A. Had we exhausted all the measures that come before that, then we

13 would have. But at any rate, we would have made sure to introduce

14 security.

15 Q. Mr. Susic, did you know where the buses came from? And if you

16 did, how did you come by that information?

17 A. I learnt when I approached the buses. One of the drivers told me,

18 when I asked him where the civilians had come from, that they were from

19 the hospital, and that they were supposed to drive them to

20 Sremska Mitrovica.

21 Q. Were you told what the purpose of their presence in the barracks

22 was?

23 A. The reason why they came to the barracks was to gather up all the

24 buses.

25 Q. Did this mean that more buses were expected to arrive?

Page 14895

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. You said that you saw military policemen on the buses, one at the

3 front door and the other at the back door. Did you see any officers near

4 the buses?

5 A. No.

6 Q. Did you hear of any military officers having come on the buses?

7 A. They told me that Vukasinovic had come, but I didn't see him.

8 Q. Did they tell you anything else concerning Vukasinovic, what he

9 was doing, where he had gone and why or anything along those lines?

10 A. They told me that he sent back 20 people who were taken off those

11 buses.

12 Q. All the while, that's to say from the point you secured the buses

13 and made sure the civilians left the barracks compound, until the arrival

14 of those buses, were you around the buses?

15 A. No. When it -- the situation became quite safe, when security was

16 introduced, I went back to my usual duties and came out occasionally just

17 to make sure that everything was fine.

18 Q. Mr. Susic, from the moment you had first contact with the buses,

19 to the moment the buses started leaving, and we'll get back to that later,

20 did you see whether any other vehicle joined those buses in that period of

21 time?

22 A. Save for the buses, there were no other vehicles arriving.

23 Q. Mr. Susic, I'd like to know more about the area in relationship to

24 the command, where your command was stationed. What was the distance

25 between the two places, roughly?

Page 14896

1 A. Some 300 metres, roughly.

2 Q. Do you know how the buses were parked? Were they parked in a

3 line?

4 A. The buses were parked in a semi-circle. As they arrived, one

5 would park behind the other.

6 Q. In the vicinity of the buses, were there any buildings that could

7 be used, rooms, offices?

8 A. There where the buses were, no. There was an awning there but it

9 was -- or like a canopy but it was broken, so it couldn't be really used.

10 Q. You say it was broken. How did it come to be broken or damaged?

11 A. By mortars, because the barracks was constantly under mortar fire

12 from paramilitary formations.

13 Q. You said that you did not see Vukasinovic but that you had heard

14 of him being there. During your stay in the barracks, in this period of

15 time, from the point the buses arrived and to the point when the buses

16 started leaving, did you see Major Sljivancanin arrive in the barracks?

17 A. I did not see him in the barracks throughout that day, and nor did

18 anybody tell me that they had seen him.

19 Q. You said that you saw Major Lukic. Did you see any other officers

20 in the barracks?

21 A. Yes. Major Lukic and Chief of Staff Lieutenant-Colonel Panic.

22 Q. Did you see them early on or when the situation with the buses

23 calmed down?

24 A. When the situation calmed down.

25 Q. Any of those officers you saw, Lukic, Panic, Predojevic, did you

Page 14897

1 talk to any of them about who had brought the buses over, why, or was the

2 only information you had the one you received from the drivers?

3 A. Only the one from the driver of the bus.

4 Q. Once you have accomplished your task and acted upon the orders

5 issued to you by your brigade commander, Colonel Mrksic, did you inform

6 him about what had been happening?

7 A. No, I didn't, because later on, there was the barracks commander,

8 Major Lukic, there, as well as the Chief of Staff, Lieutenant-Colonel

9 Panic, and because the situation was quite normal later on.

10 Q. How long did the buses stay there for?

11 A. My free estimate is that the buses stayed there until perhaps

12 1400 hours.

13 Q. Tell me, what happened after 1400 hours. As I understand the

14 situation was calm, the buses were there. What happened, if anything?

15 A. There came a JNA colonel and a Territorial Defence captain. I

16 didn't know either of them. Predojevic received them at the entrance.

17 They toured the buses. With one vehicle at the head of the column in

18 front of the buses and another one at the end of the column, they set off

19 for Negoslavci.

20 Q. The vehicle that the colonel and captain came in, what sort of a

21 vehicle was it?

22 A. It was an all-terrain vehicle, a Puh, I believe.

23 Q. Do you know which units had this vehicle at their disposal?

24 A. Our brigade also used such vehicles, but this officer did not

25 belong to our brigade, and the 1st Army District also used such vehicles.

Page 14898

1 Q. Mr. Susic, as far as I understand, one was an active-duty colonel

2 and the other one was a Territorial Defence captain. Why did you make

3 this distinction?

4 A. I was able to distinguish between the two by their dress and by

5 the way they presented their rank, the insignia denoting their rank.

6 Q. Mr. Susic, at the time the bus were there, and before they left,

7 and we will talk about that later on, did you hear anyone mentioning, in

8 any conversation, if you took part in any conversation, with perhaps these

9 officers, did you hear -- did you hear anyone mentioning Sljivancanin

10 there as the officer who had anything to do with this?

11 A. No, I didn't hear that.

12 Q. When the buses left, was there perhaps Major Lukic or any other

13 officer except for Predojevic?

14 A. No. But he was in the barracks.

15 Q. Can you please explain this? The colonel came in a military

16 vehicle. We heard what sort of information they could have, and they

17 talked to -- he talks to the captain and the buses leave. Don't you find

18 the whole situation a bit strange? In your view, why didn't this colonel

19 turn to the barracks commander? What would have been the reason behind

20 it? Can you give us your view?

21 MR. MOORE: I object to that question. It's just pure

22 speculation.

23 JUDGE PARKER: Better move on, I think, Mr. Bulatovic.

24 MR. BULATOVIC: [Interpretation] Of course.

25 JUDGE PARKER: Are you moving to a new subject?

Page 14899

1 MR. BULATOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I would only have a

2 couple of more questions, but perhaps, if you agree, we could go on a

3 break now, and then in keeping with what Mr. Moore and Mr. Lukic -- my

4 colleague Lukic were speaking about not continuing the cross-examination

5 today, I could look at my notes again and then complete my examination of

6 the witness.

7 JUDGE PARKER: We will resume at 10 minutes to 6.00.

8 --- Recess taken at 5.29 p.m.

9 --- On resuming at 5.53 p.m.

10 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Bulatovic.

11 MR. BULATOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

12 Q. I have just a few more questions for you, Mr. Susic.

13 Let me ask you this: These military policemen, what kind of

14 uniforms did they have on, those who were on the buses? Were those plain

15 uniforms or what?

16 A. They had multi-coloured uniforms, usually worn by policemen, with

17 white belts, and they had military policemen's equipment on them.

18 Q. On the 20th of November, did you see Captain Mladen Maric

19 anywhere?

20 A. Yes. I saw him in the barracks, as we were ensuring security for

21 these buses. He came in a vehicle with a group of officers, and he also

22 assisted us in separating the civilians, or taking them outside of the

23 barracks.

24 Q. Why did he come? Did he come because you called him or for some

25 other reason?

Page 14900

1 A. He came to the barracks in order to return some mortars that he

2 had used, some equipment that he had used in combat.

3 Q. So he came on another task and then he joined in and assisted you

4 in your task; correct?

5 A. Yes, correct.

6 Q. Did you know where the buses were headed from the barracks?

7 A. I didn't.

8 Q. Mr. Susic, if I'm not mistaken, on the 19th of September you

9 talked to The Hague representatives in Belgrade, didn't you?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. And this interview lasted 1 hour and 37 minutes, if I'm not

12 mistaken?

13 A. I don't know how long it lasted.

14 Q. It's irrelevant anyway. I have just one question. Did the OTP

15 representatives, or the investigator, show you in the course of the

16 interview any documents or anything else?

17 A. No.

18 MR. BULATOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I have no further

19 questions of this witness.

20 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you, Mr. Bulatovic.

21 Mr. Vasic.

22 Oh, Mr. Lukic.

23 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Both of my colleagues, except for

24 Mr. Borovic, who is always so agreeable, so both my other two colleagues

25 approached me to see if I would object to them starting their examination

Page 14901

1 on Monday. We agreed to that, and I would like to hear from my colleagues

2 whether they would be able to conclude with this witness tomorrow -- on

3 Monday so that we can proceed with our next witness on Tuesday. If that

4 is the case, then we do not mind to their examination beginning on Monday.

5 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Vasic.

6 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Thank you. I can begin my

7 cross-examination, and I think that I can conclude it within one session,

8 Mr. Lukic is quite right. I talked to him and it would be easier for me

9 if I could begin on Monday. I don't know whether given what I said, and

10 given what Mr. Moore's plans are, we can conclude within one day. I

11 believe we still can.

12 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Bulatovic.

13 Friday afternoon, Mr. Borovic, you'll have to excuse me.

14 MR. BOROVIC: [Interpretation] Well, Mr. Bulatovic had the pleasure

15 of being in my shoes, at least temporarily.

16 I leave it up to you, Your Honours, scheduling. I myself have

17 only two questions for this witness.

18 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Moore.

19 MR. MOORE: I would think that we should be all right on Monday.

20 I would anticipate that I would conclude.

21 [Trial Chamber confers]

22 JUDGE PARKER: I must say the Chamber has some reluctance to waste

23 the hour, as we've been so short of time, but in the circumstances, and as

24 counsel feel confident they can finish on Monday with this present

25 witness, we will agree to the proposal that we adjourn now to resume on

Page 14902

1 Monday.

2 Counsel will appreciate that we will be watching time extremely

3 closely on Monday and certainly would not contemplate that Mr. Vasic

4 should go past the first period and that should leave, given Mr. Borovic's

5 indication, the best part of two periods for Mr. Moore, with a little time

6 left to Mr. Bulatovic for re-examination.

7 And could we add that even though we have made provision for extra

8 time in sitting on Tuesday, Wednesday and Thursday, we would like to see

9 counsel using their time very, very carefully and not simply filling out

10 time and getting on to matters that don't matter and so on. We want to

11 take advantage of the extra sitting hours to move witnesses through more

12 quickly, not to take longer with each witness.

13 Thank you for that.

14 I wish you all a happy weekend.

15 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 6.02 p.m.,

16 to be reconvened on Monday, the 20th day of

17 November, 2006, at 9.00 a.m.