Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 15334

1 Friday, 24 November 2006

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 [The witness entered court]

5 --- Upon commencing at 9.04 a.m.

6 JUDGE PARKER: Good morning, sir.

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning.

8 JUDGE PARKER: Please read aloud the affirmation that's on the

9 card that's shown to you now.

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak

11 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

12 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you. Please sit down.

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

14 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Lukic. I should mention, Mr. Lukic, that Judge

15 Thelin finds himself not able to sit. We expect he will be able to sit on

16 Monday, and we'll continue to sit under the Rule today.

17 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honours. Good

18 morning, all.


20 [Witness answered through interpreter]

21 Examination by Mr. Lukic:

22 Q. [Interpretation] Good morning, Mr. Stojic. On behalf of the

23 Defence team of Mr. Sljivancanin, I shall be asking you questions. I told

24 you during our proofing to try and make a pause between my question and

25 your answer because we understand each other. But in order to obtain an

Page 15335

1 adequate interpretation, it is necessary for the interpreters to interpret

2 every word of ours. I shall, likewise, on my part, wait for the end of

3 your answer before asking my next question. We know that you speak

4 English well, and you will probably be understanding the questions posed

5 to you by the Prosecutor; but please also wait in that case, because we

6 want that to be fully recorded in the transcript.

7 Can we first have your full name and surname.

8 A. My name is Petar Stojic.

9 Q. Mr. Stojic, I am now going to go through your CV, your career, and

10 your biography, which is quite extensive and very prominent. But I shall

11 try to inform the Trial Chamber about the important elements in your

12 career, which I think are of relevance to appreciate your role and your

13 place in terms of the facts that we are going to be discussing here.

14 So you were born in 1938, in the town of Uzice, in Serbia; is that

15 correct?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. You completed high military schools in the military realm; and

18 also, as a civilian, you completed different degrees of schooling in

19 different universities. So I should now like to deal with the military

20 schools first. You completed the Ground Forces Military Academy, 1959; is

21 that correct?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Then the Command Staff School in 1965.

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. The School of National Defence as the highest military school of

Page 15336

1 in the then JNA.

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. And in parallel with this education, obviously your ambition did

4 not end with the military schooling, so that after high school you also

5 obtained a law degree in 1968, in which year you graduated from the law

6 school, law faculty, in Split.

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Then in Belgrade you obtained a master's degree at the Political

9 Sciences Faculty in 1977.

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. And finally, you obtained your Ph.D. also at the Faculty of

12 Political Sciences in Belgrade in 1992.

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. In your career, you published a number of papers on international

15 relations; and you are currently director, that is to say, after retiring

16 in 1994, you were - and I'm not quite sure whether you are still that -

17 director for the Institute for Geopolitical Studies; is that correct?

18 A. No. I'm just a member of the executive board for the Institute

19 for Geopolitical Studies.

20 Q. Very well. At the time which is of relevance to us, in 1991, you

21 were a colonel in the Yugoslav People's Army; is that correct?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Let me not go through all the promotions to the different ranks,

24 because what we are concerned with is the relevant period. So you had a

25 traditional career/promotion line, but you had an accelerated promotion

Page 15337

1 into the rank of lieutenant colonel, which you also told us yesterday, in

2 the presence of the Prosecutor; is that correct?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. And you retired in 1994, in which year you became a general

5 major -- major general; and in that rank, you were actually retired; is

6 that correct?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Another interesting element in your career, generally speaking in

9 its military component, is that you were quite linked with the military

10 intelligence service; namely, in the segment of its international

11 relations or its diplomatic relations. Have I defined that properly?

12 A. Yes, that is correct.

13 Q. You also were a lecturer at high military schools for a while, the

14 subject being international political relations and intelligence matters,

15 I suppose; and you were prepared for and were supposed to assume the post

16 of military attache in Chile. And because of the circumstances we are

17 familiar with, after the death of Allende and when Yugoslavia broke off

18 diplomatic relations with Chile, that didn't actually materialise; is that

19 correct?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Then you were also to be a military attache in London, which post

22 was held by Mr. Brovet, Admiral Brovet, who was later your superior in the

23 relevant period; and interestingly enough, for a number of years, five or

24 six, I believe, you were the military representative; i.e., the

25 representative of the JNA in Iraq during the vehement Iraq-Iran war, when

Page 15338

1 you our the military attache in Iraq and Iran, and in the Middle East, in

2 general.

3 A. Not in Iraq; in Tehran, Iran.

4 Q. After that, you were the Assistant Chief of General Staff for

5 International Relations for the Asia and Africa region. Have I got that

6 well?

7 A. Not exactly. I was in the intelligence administration, in charge

8 of the Africa and Asia sector; and that is approximately that.

9 Q. At a certain point in time, in 1988 up to 1994, meaning also in

10 the period that we are going to deal with today, you were the chief of

11 administration for liaison with foreign military representations attached

12 to the Federal Secretariat for National Defence; is that correct?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. As we are now talking about the relevant period, will you tell us

15 what was the duty of this administration, and who were you directly

16 subordinated to at that time? Of course, we're interested, as you well

17 know yourself, in 1991 specifically. But generally, what were -- what

18 work did you do?

19 A. The basic task of this administration, which also comprises a

20 liaison office to liaise with diplomatic and military representations; and

21 legations was to plan and implement inter-army cooperation, to establish

22 relations with military diplomatic and diplomatic representatives, and to

23 also carry out protocol security.

24 Q. What were the activities of your department in the autumn of 1991?

25 A. The situation had changed, so that instead of our activities in

Page 15339

1 inter-army cooperation, we actually focused in our work on protocol

2 security; reception and seeing off, ensuring interpretation for foreign

3 and military diplomatic representatives who sought to influence, i.e.,

4 contribute to the finding of a peaceful solution of the crisis in the

5 former Yugoslavia.

6 Q. Who was your direct superior? To whom were you, as an

7 administration and you personally, subordinated?

8 A. I was directly subordinated to general of the army, Veljko

9 Kadijevic. But between me and the army general, at that time, the federal

10 secretary for national defence was his deputy, Admiral Stane Brovet. It

11 was only in exceptional cases that I addressed directly the Army General

12 Kadijevic. Otherwise, all other contacts would be established through his

13 deputy, Admiral Brovet.

14 Q. I failed to ask you this in connection with your career, and it

15 can be of relevance for your further testimony: What was your knowledge

16 of the English language like at that time?

17 A. Professors say that my English was good. I think that it was

18 good.

19 Q. In your liaisons with foreign persons that you got in touch with,

20 did you have an interpreter, or could you directly, personally,

21 communicate with those people?

22 A. It was always me personally talking; and if there was an activity

23 that involved the participation of other people, then I would have an

24 interpreter sent to interpret from the services within my administration.

25 Q. Will you tell the Trial Chamber, when you say "protocol security,"

Page 15340

1 "protocol support," what does that comprise in lay terms? What are

2 those?

3 A. In peacetime, if somebody is appointed to a specific duty which

4 actually implies an agreement, then we receive such letters. We then

5 refer them to the competent people for their assessment. And in addition

6 to that, as I said initially, we assist in protocol matters, in liaison

7 matters, and assist them in all such activities. But, as I also said, in

8 the beginning of 1991, we rather were engaged on protocol area support

9 than the actual planning of activities. So that meant receiving, seeing

10 off, accommodating guests, seeing to their security. That was number one.

11 Q. Mr. Stojic, in November, did you have a specific task, or did you

12 have any mission in the region of Vukovar? Can you tell us; and if you

13 remember the date, when was that? Who was that mission given to you by?

14 A. Yes. On the 18th of November, 1991, Admiral Brovet called me and

15 he ordered me to put myself at the disposal of the envoy of the

16 Secretary-General of the United Nations, Mr. Cyrus Vance, with his

17 delegation, who wanted to tour parts of Vukovar and the units that were

18 engaged there. I do not remember exactly whether it was during working

19 hours. At that time we used to work all day, as a rule, but I know that

20 it was in the afternoon.

21 Q. Did he give you any guidelines in respect to this visit; what you

22 particularly needed to focus on, or was this just information that they

23 would be going and was that just it?

24 A. He gave me a very specific assignment, in which it said that I

25 should receive the guests, welcome them on the following day, that is to

Page 15341

1 say, on the 19th, at 7.00; then, that I should take them to the area of

2 Vukovar, and that I should pay particular attention to their safety and

3 security.

4 Q. We're moving on to the morning of the 19th. Do you remember who

5 was on that delegation? How many members it had?

6 A. I could not give you the names of all the members of the

7 delegation, but I do remember some of them. And I will try to tell you

8 now.

9 The head of the delegation was His Excellency Mr. Cyrus Vance, as

10 Special Envoy of the Secretary-General of the United Nations. General

11 Marrack Goulding was also as Under Secretary for Political Affairs in the

12 United Nations. I remember Colonel Purola, perhaps more than the others,

13 because we had the same rank. And I also remember Ambassador Okun. That

14 is four altogether. There were another four members of the delegation.

15 The other day when I spoke to you, I saw my report and their names

16 and exact positions are listed there. I can't remember everything

17 because, after all, it's been 15 years.

18 Q. That's quite understandable. I did not want you to really do all

19 of that, but I just wanted to see what your recollection was. Was this

20 your first meeting with Mr. Vance?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Did you have occasion to see him on other occasions; and if so, do

23 you remember where and when?

24 A. Another three or four times. I cannot be very specific on that,

25 but that was our first meeting. After that, a few other times, three or

Page 15342

1 four. All of that within the next five or ten days; that is to say, after

2 the visit to Vukovar.

3 Q. We are seeking fact testimony here, but what was your impression

4 of Mr. Vance at the time?

5 A. An exceptional man; very fair, very objective.

6 Q. How did you depart from Belgrade, and where did you go first, if

7 you remember? Did you go somewhere else before you went to Vukovar? If

8 you can tell us roughly what the time was, but I don't insist on that at

9 all.

10 A. I have an excellent recollection of some things; whereas, as far

11 as some other things are concerned, what I saw in your office the other

12 day and a year and a half ago on television, so all of it put together, I

13 do have a general picture of this entire visit, from when it began until

14 when it ended.

15 We left Belgrade around 7.00 in the morning, because on that day

16 we were supposed to return as early as possible, by 1500 hours, 1530

17 hours, because the plan was for His Excellency, Mr. Cyrus Vance, to travel

18 to go Zagreb for talks with the president of Croatia, Dr. Tudjman.

19 We left Belgrade and went towards Sid. Sid was supposed to be the

20 first stop on this working visit. We arrived around ten to 8.00, just

21 before 8.00. That's when we arrived at Sid. Should I go on?

22 Q. How did you travel to Sid?

23 A. By cars. I was in the second car with Mr. Cyrus Vance in order to

24 be able to answer all his questions, all the questions that he put during

25 the course of the journey.

Page 15343

1 Q. Do you remember how much time you spent in Sid? How long that

2 visit lasted, and what happened then?

3 A. I cannot tell you exactly how long it lasted. I think it was

4 about 40 minutes, less than an hour. We had talks there. Should I

5 explain what we did there?

6 Q. I don't really want to dwell on that very long, but just what

7 happened in Sid before you continued your journey, in the sense of your

8 transport, how you travelled?

9 A. Yes, yes. When we ended our visit there, and our host there was

10 the president of the municipal assembly of Sid, his name was Mr. Popovic.

11 I had forgotten his first name, but I saw in your documents that it was

12 Mr. Jovan Popovic. Then we were supposed to continue our journey to

13 Vukovar. However, I was surprised when I saw that there were APCs waiting

14 for us in front of the municipal assembly; and when a warrant officer told

15 us- I don't know his name- that due to security reasons, we had to

16 continue our journey on APCs.

17 Q. Did you react to that?

18 A. Since Admiral Brovet ordered me that in case of anything unplanned

19 happening I should notify him straight away, I started thinking as to

20 whether we should continue our journey at all. Because I was thinking,

21 how can such a high level dignitary and a delegation like that be put into

22 armoured personnel carriers; how can I take them somewhere as be put into

23 armoured personnel carriers; how can I take them somewhere as if we were

24 some wartime unit.

25 I called Admiral Brovet and I asked him to tell me what the

Page 15344

1 position was. Should we continue our journey or should we go back?

2 Admiral Brovet told me that I should judge it myself and talk to the

3 persons involved in providing security there.

4 I asked this warrant officer, who was at the head of two APCs,

5 whether it was necessary to take such vehicles and why we were doing

6 that. And he said to me that there was a likelihood of sniper shooters.

7 The journey was supposed to take place through a forest, and these sniper

8 shooters could open fire at the convoy.

9 I told Mr. Vance about that, and I asked him to decide as well. I

10 conveyed to him the content of my discussion with Admiral Brovet. He

11 asked me what the situation was at the command post in Negoslavci, because

12 this was the second stop on our work visit. I was told that this area

13 around the command post was secured, that this was carried out by the

14 security organs and security details. So we agreed that we should

15 continue our journey.

16 Q. On that occasion, did you actually board the APCs, and did you

17 actually take these APCs to Negoslavci?

18 A. Yes.

19 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, now we are going to

20 watch a brief videoclip, V0001128. That is a document that was already

21 admitted into evidence as an exhibit, so you will see it on our screens

22 now.

23 [Videotape played]

24 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

25 Q. You can comment on this, Mr. Stojic. What is it we're seeing now?

Page 15345

1 A. A convoy of vehicles departing from Belgrade and going to Sid.

2 Now we've arrived in Sid and we are getting out. The president of the

3 municipal assembly, Popovic, greeting Mr. Cyrus Vance. I'm right behind

4 him. Do you see? In uniform, a colonel's uniform. I just don't have my

5 cap on.

6 Q. Are you the man who is holding his hat and his coat in his hands?

7 A. Precisely. And right behind me, there is a lieutenant colonel in

8 uniform, with a cap on his head.

9 Q. We can continue.

10 [Videotape played]

11 A. You can see me better now. On the right, the man to the right of

12 Cyrus Vance, Jovan Popovic, the interpreter who worked in my department.

13 Q. He is wearing a grey jacket; right?

14 A. I am right behind him.

15 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreters can no longer hear the

16 proceedings in the courtroom.

17 A. I am now helping him enter the vehicle. You can see my rank

18 insignia, but my hair is dark. It's been 15 years, after all. Now I'm

19 sitting in the APC, together with Mr. Cyrus Vance, who insisted that I

20 should be with him all the time and that I should assist him, explain to

21 him things that he sees.

22 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I've stopped the videoclip because --

23 well, Your Honours, can we please get a number for this videoclip.

24 JUDGE PARKER: Is it not an exhibit?

25 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Well, this is the first part, but the

Page 15346

1 exhibit started from the moment when they arrive in Negoslavci, if you

2 remember. I can check during the break, but my colleague tells me that

3 she already did check. The exhibit starts from when the arrived in

4 Negoslavci. We are going to watch that, too. But this is the preceding

5 part of the TV report.

6 JUDGE PARKER: Is it all one video? I think we will simply record

7 that the whole of the video is now comprising the exhibit, and perhaps the

8 court officer could remind us of the number.

9 Perhaps you might be able to remind us, Mr. Lukic.

10 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, my colleague, Ms.

11 Dokmanovic, told me that that it's Exhibit 74 -- Exhibit 70, rather, that

12 it starts from the sequel to this. But we don't have this particular

13 footage in that. However, all of it was dealt with in the 65 ter

14 documents, the entire report. However, in Exhibit 70, we haven't got

15 this. The Prosecution actually tendered a different part when Mr. Okun

16 testified as a Prosecution witness.

17 JUDGE PARKER: The whole video is now Exhibit 70.

18 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

19 Q. Mr. Stojic, where did you go after Sid? What happened then?

20 A. After Sid, we went to the village of Negoslavci, which is 33

21 kilometres away from Sid. That is where the command post was of

22 Operations Group South.

23 Q. Did anybody receive you there? Did you have a meeting there, and

24 what happened during such a meeting?

25 A. On arrival in front of the building, in which the command post of

Page 15347

1 the Operations Group South was, we were met by the commander of the group,

2 Colonel -- at that time, Colonel Mrksic. And he took us into the

3 operations room.

4 Q. Do you remember anything specific that transpired in the

5 operations room, or rather, relay the sequence of events.

6 A. In the operations room, we stayed for around 30 to 35 minutes.

7 During that time, the commander, Colonel Mrksic, informed us about the

8 situation in that part of the front or in that region. In front of us

9 there was a map which we, in the military, call a war map, in which were

10 inscribed elements of the combat disposition and the line of demarcation.

11 Colonel Mrksic explained to us that the zone of responsibility of

12 his operations group, in depth, was the River Vuka; and he also indicated

13 another two points on the right and left boundaries -- I don't now

14 remember whether it was the village of Tovarnik, or something like that,

15 but I know that the in-depth point was the River Vuka. On that occasion,

16 he told me that across the River Vuka, the zone of responsibility was that

17 of Operations Group North.

18 He also gave us a number of other details which I truly could not

19 recall in their entirety now. After 30 to 35 minutes, Colonel Mrksic

20 called Major Veselin Sljivancanin and told him that he would be our host,

21 responsible for the further course of the visit while we stayed in his

22 zone.

23 Q. Mr. Stojic, do approach the microphones and relax in your chair.

24 A. Thank you.

25 Q. Where did you go after that?

Page 15348

1 A. After that, we set out to the barracks, if I can call it a

2 barracks, because it was a building riddled with bullets. It was

3 destroyed. It had many traces of combat operations as, after all, the

4 whole of Vukovar had.

5 Q. You told us who was in the delegation. Do you remember which

6 officer accompanied you as you proceeded in your visit to Vukovar? You

7 said that Mr. Sljivancanin was with you. Were there any other officers

8 with you?

9 A. Yes. There were a number of them, but I could only recall the

10 names of two. One of them was, at that time, Colonel Pavkovic, Nebojsa

11 Pavkovic, who otherwise is not organically within the composition of the

12 unit commanded by Colonel Mrksic. And we also had Lieutenant Colonel

13 Djukic with us, who was from the cabinet. He was a security officer, and

14 he was practically in charge of us, and that charge was given to him by

15 the Federal Secretary of National Defence.

16 As for the two or three lower-ranking officers, I wouldn't be

17 able, right now, to say anything specific about them. I believe that they

18 were there with a number of men, a number of soldiers, who accompanied us

19 throughout the visit to ensure our security. I believe that they belonged

20 to Colonel Mrksic's unit.

21 Q. Do you remember, in respect of these officers whom you mentioned,

22 whether they were with you throughout your visit to Vukovar?

23 A. You mean Colonel Pavkovic and Lieutenant Colonel Djukic?

24 Q. Yes.

25 A. Yes.

Page 15349

1 Q. I didn't ask you at the beginning, but let me ask you: Were you

2 there throughout the visit of Mr. Cyrus Vance? Were you with him or by

3 him all that time, at his side throughout the visit to Vukovar?

4 A. During the actual journey, I sat by him in the car, next to him.

5 During the tour of the city, I was some four or five metres behind or

6 around him, because I gave way to the host. I stepped back a couple of

7 metres in order to keep tabs on the situation, which is actually the way

8 it should have been, according to protocol. But, basically, I was with

9 His Excellency, Mr. Cyrus Vance, all the time.

10 Q. During this further tour of Vukovar and the points that you

11 stopped at, who was the person who was the most engaged in talking with

12 Mr. Vance? Who was his host in that part of the visit?

13 A. Major Sljivancanin was.

14 Q. How long did you stay in the barracks, approximately?

15 A. It is very difficult for me to give you a precise answer; ten to

16 15 minutes, I believe. But not in the barracks proper, we were in the

17 compound, in the barracks compound.

18 Q. Thank you very much. We shall be looking at the footage shortly.

19 Do you recall whether Mr. Vance asked to see the Vukovar Hospital;

20 and if so, when did he make that request, and what happened in response to

21 it?

22 A. During the talks in the barracks compound, around the time when we

23 were about to leave, Mr. Vance asked Major Sljivancanin if there existed a

24 possibility for the Vukovar Hospital to be also seen. That was the first

25 time a reference to the hospital was made. Major Sljivancanin replied

Page 15350

1 that it was his opinion that within the brief time at our disposal, for

2 security considerations, it was impossible to organise such a visit.

3 And I think, I'm not quite certain, I think that he also mentioned

4 seeing that the hospital is across the River Vuka in the zone of the

5 Operations Group North. I believe that he uttered a comment to the effect

6 that it was some four or five kilometres away from the place where we

7 were, and that the hospital was in the center of town. So, actually, he

8 said that it was his opinion that it was impossible to ensure that within

9 a short period of time.

10 Q. Before this dialogue, which you have just now related to us, did

11 anyone, Mr. Brovet or Mr. Vance or anyone else, mention to you their

12 desire to make this visit to the Vukovar Hospital? I mean before this

13 dialogue.

14 A. No.

15 Q. When you were issued this task by Brovet, was it your job to make

16 an itinerary of all the working stops that you would be making in such a

17 visit? Was that your task?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Did any of the plans for such a visit envisage a visit to the

20 Vukovar Hospital?

21 A. No.

22 Q. What happened afterwards? What was the reaction after this

23 dialogue between Mr. Vance and Major Sljivancanin?

24 A. Mr. Vance inquired whether, after all, there did exist some

25 possibility for him to visit the Vukovar Hospital, whether there was

Page 15351

1 someone who ensure that, probably meaning someone from the Operations

2 Group North. The answer that was given him was that at that moment, and

3 given the shortness of time, it was impossible to ensure appropriate

4 security, and that it would be taking a risk to set off into the unknown,

5 as it were.

6 Q. Did you personally take part in any way in this dialogue or in any

7 talks on this topic? Did you participate, and did you react to that?

8 A. Yes. Yes, I approached. I walked up to them and I asked in a

9 very small voice, Pavkovic and Djukic, what they thought about it. They

10 also were of the view that it would be highly risky, because this was not

11 a group of journalists who would be taking that risk of their own accord,

12 but this was a delegation of the United Nations, a high-ranking United

13 Nations delegation.

14 Then I approached Mr. Sljivancanin and I asked him, in a very low

15 voice, whether there did, after all, exist some possibility, and he just

16 shrugged his shoulders. And then I made the decision to ask Mr. Vance, if

17 he should insist to go to the hospital, in that case, I decided that I

18 would call Admiral Brovet and ask them for their position on the issue.

19 Only a higher ranking -- the higher ranking superior command could have

20 brought a decision. That is the way it goes, according to military

21 hierarchy. That is the line of command and control.

22 However, that proved to be unnecessary. I did not have to call

23 Admiral Brovet. I walked up to Mr. Vance, and I only told him that it was

24 my opinion that we should not be taking that risk; and he acquiesced, and

25 that was the end of it. No one mentioned the Vukovar Hospital ever, any

Page 15352

1 more. And I assert, with responsibility, that that was the first time

2 that I heard about that hospital, and that I was not actually familiar

3 with the details of the situation on that part of the front.

4 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Can we now see Exhibit 70. But before

5 that, Your Honours, can I kindly ask you to -- while this video footage is

6 played, can you look at the transcripts, which you still have before you,

7 which are the MFI transcripts, because the Defence feels that the

8 transcript is not faithfully and completely translated.

9 But I should like to ask you to follow. It is not a question of

10 translation, actually; but when it was transcribed, some things have been

11 omitted. So if you could please be so kind as to do that. Can I ask the

12 usher to give the Trial Chamber these copies, so that we can follow this

13 particular footage.

14 JUDGE PARKER: Do the interpreters have a copy, Mr. Lukic?

15 Mr. Lunny.

16 MR. LUNNY: Your Honour, if the Prosecution can assist. We

17 prepared a revised transcript and translation of this video, which I

18 believe was sent to my learned friend. I don't know if he's had a chance

19 to fully check that. The Prosecution has made copies for distribution in

20 court this morning; and if my friend would like, perhaps that can be

21 distributed and allay his fears about the MFI transcript.

22 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Lukic, Mr. Lunny says they've had the earlier

23 transcript revised, so there's an improved version. It might be useful if

24 we look at that.

25 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] If that is what I got from the OTP.

Page 15353

1 What I received some two or three weeks ago from the OTP, as they say, the

2 revised version, that is the version marked V0001231.

3 THE INTERPRETER: If Mr. Lukic could kindly slow down with the

4 numbers.

5 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] If that is the version, that is the

6 one I'm handing over right now, unless he's talking about a more recent

7 one.

8 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Lunny, perhaps the Chamber could have the

9 revised one.

10 MR. LUNNY: It is, Your Honour. That is the revised one. I see

11 it's not really helping with my learned friend's fears, obviously.

12 JUDGE PARKER: He's perhaps not had a chance to study it yet, and

13 is there a copy for the interpreters?

14 MR. LUNNY: Yes, Your Honour, and it has been distributed.

15 JUDGE PARKER: They seem to be the same, Mr. Lukic, from what I've

16 been able to see so far. You've distributed the revised one, and Mr.

17 Lunny has given us a duplicate copy.

18 MR. LUNNY: I apologise for the confusion and the waste of the

19 court time, Your Honour.

20 JUDGE PARKER: That's nobody's fault in particular, Mr. Lunny, but

21 we may soon see the video.

22 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Let me draw your attention to

23 something. I don't want it to have anything to do with Mr. Stojic's

24 testimony. Your Honours, please pay attention to the transcript when you

25 read it and when you watch the video footage. Please look at page 2, pay

Page 15354

1 attention to that, lines 14 to 22 in English on page 2. The B/C/S

2 transcript and the English transcript have something there -- well, I'm

3 not going to say anything now, because the witness is here. But that is

4 what remains controversial from the time when Mr. Okun gave evidence.

5 Q. Can you see this on your screen, Mr. Stojic?

6 A. No, I cannot.

7 [Videotape played]

8 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

9 Q. Just tell us what this is.

10 A. Arrival and entering the operations room. This is the welcome.

11 JUDGE PARKER: Before we go further, Mr. Lukic, we are not getting

12 English.

13 THE INTERPRETER: The Interpreters note: That part that is not

14 transcribed, and we do not have the text. The original soundtrack is much

15 too fast for interpretation.

16 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, this is a news

17 commentary. What we have heard so far in B/C/S is commentary by the

18 journalist. That was not relevant to us, so we'll move on.

19 [Videotape played]

20 THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover] Let us take a walk around the

21 compound.

22 THE WITNESS: You can see Colonel Pavkovic here.

23 THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover] Soldiers and commanding officers of

24 all peoples of Yugoslavia are here /unintelligible/ more than 18 year old.

25 THE INTERPRETER: We cannot read the transcript and interpret

Page 15355

1 court proceedings at the same time.

2 THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover] Before the Yugoslav People's Army

3 units liberated Vukovar, some 400-500 mortar missiles were being launched

4 on our barracks daily. When we imprisoned the rest of the Ustasha

5 soldiers and the second part of the citizens last night, I was proud of my

6 soldiers who never tried even for a moment to take revenge on anybody,

7 but they helped them as much as it was needed. We teach and train all our

8 soldiers and commanding officers that it is very much humane and a great

9 honour to help every man and every people. Also, sir, this here is one

10 dirty war that has never in history been waged this way.

11 The Yugoslav army, the Yugoslav People's Army originates from the

12 army that fought fascism in the Second World War along with the other

13 allies.

14 No, our soldiers had all taken part, along with us the positions,

15 in performing... in liberating the city of Vukovar.

16 I think I cannot ensure that at the moment.

17 There is safe passage.

18 He can solve that because in there, where the passage across the

19 Vuka River is located, between us and this "North" Operations Group, there

20 are minefields and we are not prepared to take you where you won't be

21 safe.

22 We still haven't cleared these minefields.

23 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

24 Q. Mr. Stojic, during your proofing, we watched this video footage.

25 Do you remember whether you were present during this dialogue? Is that

Page 15356

1 the way you recall that this took place?

2 A. I was four or five metres away from Mr. Cyrus Vance and Major

3 Sljivancanin. I listened to every word, and right now I can say to you

4 that my teacher did not interpret everything perfectly. Major

5 Sljivancanin said, "I think that in this short period of time, we could

6 not ensure a trip to the Vukovar Hospital," and Professor Jovan Jeremic,

7 my teacher, the interpreter said "I cannot," whereas, what he said was "we

8 cannot."

9 As they were talking, I slowly approached Colonel Pavkovic and

10 Lieutenant Colonel Djukic and asked them what they thought. This is the

11 first time I heard of this hospital. You must understand me, my task was

12 to take care of the delegation. And if I just say that I travelled on

13 APCs from Sid to Negoslavci; and then, now, all of a sudden they go out

14 into an open area into the center of town, I mean this is the first time

15 I've heard of all this. This was, well, a moment when I needed to consult

16 my superior command, or rather, Admiral Brovet.

17 Q. All right. You explained that.

18 A. Yes. But I wanted to note that the interpretation heard on the

19 video is not good.

20 Q. We have another interpretation here. Don't worry about that. As

21 this conversation was taking place, do you remember whether Colonel

22 Pavkovic and Colonel Djukic were nearby?

23 A. Two metres away or one metre away, right behind Mr. Cyrus Vance

24 and Major Sljivancanin. And I am next to them, except that I'm trying to

25 stay out of the way because I'm not the host at that point, but I'm

Page 15357

1 following everything.

2 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I'm not going to ask the

3 witness anything else in relation to this subject, but I would kindly ask

4 that we view once again this part that I find controversial. It is at

5 2:18, roughly, when Mr. Vance is putting this question.

6 "See if we can make arrangements with the people of the Northern

7 Command to see the hospital." That is on page 2, from line 12. And then

8 after that, you will hear what I kept objecting to, that an unknown voice

9 says, "No, no," and only then Mr. Sljivancanin gives his answer.

10 Your Honours, please pay attention to Mr. Sljivancanin's face at

11 that point. So it's somebody else who is saying, "No, no," and then the

12 translation that was provided here says, "There is a secure passage." We

13 claim that the unknown voice is saying, "There is no secure passage."

14 Please have a look. This is what we have been trying to work out with the

15 Prosecution and the CLSS for over a year now. I'm not going to ask the

16 witness.

17 [Videotape played]

18 THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover] I think that right now I cannot

19 provide for that. That can be resolved because where the passage where

20 the Vuka is located, between us and this north operations group, there are

21 minefields, and we are not prepared to take you where you won't be safe.

22 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I would kindly ask that

23 you leave us some more time. I can talk to our friends from the OTP, that

24 we and the Prosecutors look at this together with the interpreters so

25 that, by next Friday, we inform you what we all hear, whether they agree

Page 15358

1 with what we, the Defence, hear in that particular clip. We are not

2 challenging anything else, but let us see if we can finally all agree on

3 what is actually heard in that clip.

4 [Trial Chamber confers]

5 JUDGE PARKER: Is it your submission, Mr. Lukic, that this voice

6 saying, "No, no," that you hear is relevant to the conversation between

7 your client and Mr. Vance?

8 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Yes. Yes, that is exactly what I

9 think. I've viewed it several times with this witness. We see who is on

10 the film. But in view of the first transcript and the assertion made by

11 the OTP that my client is the person who decides that Mr. Vance cannot

12 travel to the hospital, it is relevant for me that there is this other

13 voice saying, "No, no," and that there is another voice that says there is

14 not a secure or safe passage there.

15 JUDGE PARKER: Very well. If it can be resolved between the

16 parties, that will be fine. Otherwise, the Chamber will have to assess

17 the matter.

18 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

19 Q. Sir, Mr. Stojic, where were you after the barracks, and what

20 happened there?

21 A. After the compound of the barracks, we went to a facility that is

22 called Velepromet that was used as a holding centre for refugees and

23 displaced persons.

24 Q. Can you remember the details? What happened there? How long did

25 you stay there? What is it you recall from Velepromet?

Page 15359

1 A. I cannot tell you a great deal about this, especially as far as

2 details are concerned. After all, it's been 15 years. But I know that

3 there were some warehouses there, that many people were in front of these

4 buildings - women, children, elderly persons. I also saw some people, a

5 few people, in uniform.

6 This uniform was different from what members of Operations Group

7 South wore. I mean, this was attire that was no longer used. I also saw

8 a few soldiers who belonged to the unit of Colonel Mrksic. I think they

9 were people from security. Because throughout our stay there, and as we

10 were moving about at different working points, the security was checking

11 the area.

12 Mr. Cyrus Vance was engaged in talks there. There was a person

13 there in uniform; I don't know what his name was. He was in charge of

14 this centre. I don't even know what his official title was. Was that

15 director or commander or commanding officer? At any rate, all of that

16 went on for ten or 15 minutes, not more than that. Perhaps it was a bit

17 more, but I cannot be very accurate now and I cannot tell you exactly.

18 Well, that is what I could say to you at this point.

19 Q. Did you go down to the center of town? Do you remember that you

20 were ever on a square in the town of Vukovar?

21 A. No. We were not at any square. That would have been dangerous.

22 Q. Does Milovo Brdo mean anything to you? Did you, perhaps, go to

23 some elevation?

24 A. I did not know about that until the other evening, when you told

25 me what the name was. But we did climb up there and we watched Vukovar a

Page 15360

1 bit from up there.

2 Q. Where did you go after that?

3 A. After that we went to the hospital in the village of Negoslavci.

4 Well, not exactly in the village. It's a bit on the outskirts of the

5 village. But that is the hospital that took in the wounded and the ill.

6 It belonged to the army or to the 5th Operations Group. I cannot remember

7 exactly now. I knew everything then, but now, well ...

8 Q. At all these points that we described now, how did you move about

9 in Vukovar?

10 A. On APCs. The seat where I sat otherwise, next to Mr. Cyrus Vance,

11 in order to be able to talk to him, was taken by Major Sljivancanin. I

12 ordered the interpreter to be in a position that would enable

13 communication with Mr. Vance; that is to say, Mr. Sljivancanin and Major

14 Vance -- Major Sljivancanin and Mr. Vance. So I was a bit further away.

15 I was in the third row compared to them. That is what the APC looks like.

16 There are eight seats, and the driver and the co-driver, so that's a total

17 of eight seats.

18 Q. Was Sljivancanin in that vehicle when you went from Vukovar to the

19 Negoslavci hospital? And what was he doing in that vehicle?

20 A. Well, that's exactly what I've been telling you about. Major

21 Sljivancanin sat in the seat in the APC that I sat in before that, on the

22 trip from Sid to Vukovar. He was talking to Mr. Vance. But I could not

23 follow that conversation, because it is impossible without a headset in an

24 APC.

25 I would just like to tell the honourable Trial Chamber that even

Page 15361

1 communication between the driver and co-driver requires the use of a

2 headset because of the noise levels.

3 Q. Visually, what did this dialogue between the two of them seem like

4 to you?

5 A. Perfectly normal. I really don't know what you mean. They were

6 talking without any gesticulation, perfectly normally, the way people

7 talk, the way two interlocutors would engage in a conversation.

8 Q. This is why I'm asking you this. Mr. Stojic, throughout the

9 visit - I'm going to ask you this yet again - from the moment you arrived

10 in Vukovar and throughout the visit, until you left Negoslavci, were you

11 near Mr. Vance and Sljivancanin all the time?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Was it also your duty to follow the entire course of the visit and

14 the conduct of Mr. Vance and his collocutors?

15 A. Yes, it was. But I have to mention that I was ordered, and that

16 is indeed the practice, to follow everything that was happening; who was

17 doing what, who was in charge of what, who was responsible for what, and

18 to put that in a report in order for my superiors to be able to take the

19 necessary, appropriate, measures; that is to say, if something was remiss,

20 for that something to be rectified, and in order for us to know what

21 further steps to take.

22 Q. We shall be coming to that report. But tell me at this point, did

23 you see at any point during the visit that there was emotions running

24 high, or there was a more vehement discussion between Mr. Sljivancanin and

25 Mr. Vance? Were there any raised voices?

Page 15362

1 A. No.

2 Q. Now, an even stranger question: Did you see at any moment Mr.

3 Sljivancanin point a rifle or any kind of weapon at Mr. Vance?

4 A. No.

5 Q. Were there any journalists there during your visit?

6 A. Throughout the visit, there were representatives of the mass media

7 with us, both from our country as well as foreign journalists, and TV

8 crews, correspondents. Actually, they were very eager to come near and

9 hear what the conversation was being -- was about in order to report back

10 to their agencies and to their houses, and film the event.

11 Q. Do you know whether anyone prohibited the journalists from filming

12 anything or recording anything throughout the visit?

13 A. On the contrary. It was desirable for them to record what they

14 heard and saw and report it back to their agencies and houses.

15 Q. How long did you -- how much time did you spend at the hospital in

16 Negoslavci, approximately?

17 A. That was where we spent the most time among all the working stops.

18 Between 45 and 50 minutes, I believe.

19 Q. Do you remember, when you said goodbye to Mr. Vance, I mean when

20 you, your delegation, and Mr. Vance parted and he said goodbye to Mr.

21 Sljivancanin, what was that like?

22 A. Yes, I do. They said goodbye at the exit from the hospital

23 compound. They shook hands quite normally, as did all the other members

24 of the delegation. They also said goodbye to Major Sljivancanin. Colonel

25 Purola uttered a comment which I didn't pay any attention to. It was

Page 15363

1 probably some courtesy comment. I didn't get it. Then we got on the

2 APCs, and Mr. Cyrus Vance, again, asked me to sit by him so that we could

3 comment the just-finished visit.

4 Q. You have seen your report which we will be analysed a bit later

5 and which has probably jogged your memories. But tell me, do you remember

6 what you talked about with Mr. Vance on your way to Belgrade? While you

7 were returning to Belgrade, what were his words?

8 A. I remember -- I remember, and what I consider to be of importance

9 I have inserted in my report, which I wrote the very same night upon

10 arrival in Belgrade, and with permission from this honourable Trial

11 Chamber I can highlight a couple of the sentences exchanged during the

12 conversation, some segments of it.

13 Q. Give us that in a couple of words. Then we shall put the report

14 itself in front of you.

15 A. In view of the fact that he also used to be an active officer, a

16 frigate captain, as far as I remember, it was not difficult for him to

17 actually recognise everything that is characteristic of a military unit.

18 He said that he had gained the impression that the unit, i.e., the men,

19 members, of the unit of Operations Group South, that they were

20 disciplined, that they had a proper appearance, soldierly appearance, in

21 line, in array, that is, starting with their posture up to their uniforms

22 and their bearing.

23 And he also had a comment to the effect that -- which referred to

24 all the peoples in the former Yugoslavia, and this is more or less what he

25 said: Yugoslavs, so not Serbs, not Muslims, not Macedonians; he said,

Page 15364

1 Yugoslavs are militant and courageous people, but he also said that they

2 will take up arms very easily and also be very trigger-happy, which is

3 very dangerous if they are led by nationalist leaders. He said something

4 along those lines.

5 He also said that he observed, as a lesser problem, he said that

6 he observed that a lesser problem, the blocking of the barracks, can

7 produce, can generate, a major problem which can escalate into a conflict.

8 And this is his comment and his conclusion after touring the barracks in

9 Vukovar. And he added that, in relation to that particular subject, he

10 would be talking with Dr. Tudjman, the President of Croatia, that very

11 same day. And he also said, and he was bothered by the fact that we saw

12 approaching the barracks, not in the compound, but right there.

13 In the immediate vicinity, we saw a number of members of the armed

14 forces, not from Colonel Mrksic's unit, who exuded an air which was not

15 soldierly, as we would put it, because of the way they were dressed,

16 because of the way they were comporting themselves. They were hanging

17 around, I could say. And this is what he was bothered by. And he told me

18 that on that account he would be talking to General Kadijevic and Admiral

19 Brovet, and that I should also relay this to this; namely, that these

20 people needed to be put under the control of the regular army as soon as

21 possible.

22 And he may have said some other things that I might remember if I

23 consulted my report, but that's about it.

24 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, this is the first

25 witness with whom I have overstepped my time limit. I do have two more

Page 15365

1 brief topics. I believe it is, however, now time for our break. I

2 believe that we shall all be expeditious with Mr. Stojic today so that we

3 shall end in time. I just wish to deal with this report a bit later,

4 after the break, to complete -- to wrap up this topic.

5 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Lukic, you're right that we must now have the

6 first break. The tape's nearly run out. So we will resume at five

7 minutes to the hour.

8 --- Recess taken at 10.31 a.m.

9 --- On resuming at 10.56 a.m.

10 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Lukic.

11 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

12 Q. Mr. Stojic, can you tell us, approximately, when you returned to

13 Belgrade on that day, with that delegation?

14 A. Around 1530 hours, in the afternoon.

15 Q. When was the next time you saw Mr. Vance? And where was this, if

16 you remember?

17 A. I think it was already on the following day, when I went to pick

18 him up at the hotel, and I took him to the building of the Federal

19 Secretariate for National Defence for a meeting with General Kadijevic and

20 his associates.

21 Q. Did you attend the meeting?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Do you remember who else was present at the meeting, in addition

24 to Mr. Vance and Mr. Kadijevic?

25 A. Yes. Should I mention all the names? Admiral Brovet, General

Page 15366

1 Jovic, Colonel Vuk Obradovic.

2 Q. Was there anyone from Mr. Vance's delegation who attended the

3 meeting as well? Do you remember that?

4 A. Yes. I remember that Mr. Goulding was there; then Mr. Okun,

5 Colonel Purola, and two other persons from the remaining four. Six out of

6 eight, which was the total number of members of this delegation.

7 Q. Do you remember what the subject of the conversation was?

8 A. Yes, for the most part. Should I proceed?

9 General Kadijevic had his report in front of him, my report on the

10 visit. Also, Admiral Brovet and General Jovic and Colonel Pavkovic.

11 Q. You said, "Obradovic" before.

12 A. Oh, I do beg your pardon. I meant Obradovic. The general asked

13 Mr. Cyrus Vance - General Kadijevic asked, that is - to tell him about his

14 impressions of the visit. Not waiting for his answer, the general gave an

15 introduction. He talked about the situation as it was. And after he

16 finished, Mr. Cyrus Vance spoke. I do not remember the details, but I

17 know that Mr. Cyrus Vance gave his impressions briefly. He mostly spoke

18 about the content of the talk he had with Dr. Franjo Tudjman, the

19 President of Croatia.

20 Right now, I really could not tell you more about the content of

21 that conversation. I was there for the sake of protocol. I was not a

22 participant in the talks. I was basically in charge of protocol.

23 Q. Do you remember whether at that time there were any objections

24 raised by Mr. Cyrus Vance in respect of his visit to Vukovar, any

25 objections against the JNA?

Page 15367

1 A. There weren't any objections raised against the JNA on the part of

2 Mr. Cyrus Vance, but he did note that he saw armed people who should be

3 placed under the control of the operative units of the JNA as soon as

4 possible.

5 Q. In your view, what was the relationship like between General

6 Kadijevic and Mr. Vance? How did you view it? How many times did they

7 meet in your presence, as far as you know?

8 A. As far as I know, four times. I was always present, and I can

9 tell you that the relationship was more than friendly. I also have to

10 note that General Kadijevic graduated from high military schools in the

11 United States; and since they were roughly the same age, or of a similar

12 age, it is possible that they knew each other from before. I really don't

13 know about that.

14 Q. Do you recall any other details in terms of some particular

15 attentiveness between the two of them? If so, could you please tell us

16 about that, just in a few words.

17 A. Yes. When the meeting was over, in the operations room of the

18 Federal Secretariat for National Defence, General Kadijevic beckoned to me

19 and told me to prepare a present for Mr. Cyrus Vance, which was the

20 general custom as far as such guests were concerned, guests who were

21 accorded special attention. He ordered me to prepare a pistol,

22 manufactured by the Crvena Zastava arms factory in Kragojevac; and that I

23 should also prepare a small plaque with an inscription by way of a

24 dedication. I did that, of course. I cannot give you an exact answer now

25 as to whether it was on the following day or two days later.

Page 15368

1 General Kadijevic already had health problems at that time. He

2 was about to undergo surgery at the Military Medical Academy. So, as I

3 said, a day or two later we went to the Military Medical Academy; Mr.

4 Cyrus Vance, Mr. Okun, and Colonel Purola. I don't know whether there was

5 a fourth person there, too. We paid a visit to General Kadijevic. In the

6 suite where he was staying at the Military Medical Academy, they had a

7 friendly meeting; and at the end of that meeting, General Kadijevic

8 presented this gift to His Excellency, Mr. Cyrus Vance.

9 Q. Very well. Thank you.

10 A. You're welcome.

11 Q. We won't be dealing with that any long. But during your dealings

12 after Vukovar, did Mr. Vance, Mr. Okun, anyone from that delegation,

13 present any criticism to you personal live on account of that visit to

14 Vukovar?

15 A. No. May I just say something else? I organised a dinner for the

16 entire delegation in the army centre of the JNA. All the persons are

17 mentioned in the report. I don't want to go through that yet again. At

18 that dinner various subjects were discussed, but we no longer mentioned

19 the visit to Vukovar, nor was anything referred to in relation to that

20 event.

21 Q. Thank you.

22 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Could we now please see document

23 3D05-0387. We received this document from the OTP this summer, I think,

24 according to Rule 68, but I'm not sure now. Can we just see the

25 letterhead first.

Page 15369

1 Q. Mr. Stojic, tell us, what is this?

2 A. This is the report that I wrote during the night between the 19th

3 and 20th of November, upon my return from Vukovar.

4 Q. Does this report pertain to what you testified about today?

5 A. Precisely.

6 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Could we just see the last page of

7 this report on our screens, please, page 4.

8 Q. Who did you submit this report to? Who were copies sent to, Mr.

9 Stojic?

10 A. To the cabinet, the office of the Federal Secretary for National

11 Defence; to the cabinet, office of the General Staff of the Armed Forces

12 of the SFRY, that was the previous Yugoslavia; the Deputy, Federal

13 Secretary for National Defence, Admiral Brovet; the Department for Moral

14 Guidance of the Federal Secretariat for National Defence; the Security

15 Administration of the Federal Secretariat for National Defence; and the

16 2nd Administration of the General Staff of the Armed Forces of the

17 Socialist Federal Republic of Yugoslavia, that is, the Intelligence

18 Administration.

19 Q. As for this report, is that the one that Mr. Kadijevic, Mr.

20 Brovet, and Mr. Obradovic had before them, prior to the meeting with Mr.

21 Vance that you just described to us?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Thank you. I think that the report is self-explanatory. I have

24 no questions in relation to that.

25 Mr. Stojic, I have concluded my examination-in-chief.

Page 15370

1 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] But I would just like to ask this

2 document admitted into evidence.

3 JUDGE PARKER: It will be received.

4 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit 861, Your Honours.

5 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Domazet.

6 MR. DOMAZET: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.

7 Examination by Mr. Domazet:

8 Q. [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Mr. Stojic. I am Vladimir

9 Domazet, Attorney at Law; one of the Defence counsel of Mr. Mrksic. I am

10 going to put a few questions to you.

11 Mr. Stojic, in view of what you have told us, referring to your

12 participation in the talks with Mr. Vance and in escorting him, I should

13 like you to tell us whether in these talks, or in any other way, you

14 learned what the position was of Mr. Vance, as a UN envoy, in relation to

15 a resolution of the Yugoslav crisis, which pertained at the time.

16 A. Mr. Vance's position was that efforts should be exerted in order

17 for the earliest possible deblocking of the military barracks and towards

18 finding a negotiated solution in order to put an end to the Yugoslav

19 crisis.

20 Q. Thank you. This would be it in the most succinct, briefest terms.

21 Do you know what the European Monitoring Mission's position was at the

22 time, and were there any differences between the stance of that mission

23 and what Mr. Vance was doing?

24 A. I could not give you a precise answer to that question.

25 Q. Thank you. Mr. Stojic, when you came to the command of OG South

Page 15371

1 at Negoslavci, you mentioned today that there was a map, a war map, as you

2 said, in which were certainly inscribed the operations and the situation.

3 I should like to know whether the map that you saw was updated up to the

4 19th of November, in terms of the operations that had been drawn in?

5 A. I could not see the date, and I can only suppose that it was. But

6 I could not see it.

7 Q. But according to what was said at the time - probably, there were

8 explanations being given of what was in the map - was it said that the

9 operations in Vukovar had been completed and that there were no more

10 combat operations, or something along those lines?

11 A. As far as I can recall, they said that there were no more

12 operations. But we don't refer to them as operations, we say "combat."

13 But they said that the entire city, the entire territory, had not been

14 cleaned yet. That is what I remember. I could not give you any more

15 detailed comments.

16 Q. You said that you had a prepared plan of activities, an itinerary

17 for the visit. I suppose that was also discussed at Negoslavci when you

18 were received by Commander Mrksic. My question is whether he had any

19 objections to the plan or comments in relation to it. Were there any

20 restrictions being imposed on you, on any elements of your planned visit,

21 or, on the contrary, were you told that they could see everything that

22 they wanted to see?

23 A. The position was that they should be shown everything that they

24 wished to see, and that we would hide nothing from them.

25 Q. Thank you. I think that you were quite decided in your answer to

Page 15372

1 a similar question by my colleague Lukic, as regards the raising of the

2 matter of the visit to the hospital for the first time, but I shall ask

3 you anyway. During this meeting at the command of the operations group,

4 in the presence of Commander Mrksic, was a visit to the hospital at all

5 raised? Was the question of the possibility of visiting the hospital

6 raised at all?

7 A. No.

8 Q. Thank you. A while ago you had in front of you, your own report

9 which you compiled and submitted.

10 MR. DOMAZET: [Interpretation] And perhaps it would be good for us

11 to see the last page on our screens again. That is Exhibit 861, the one

12 that has just been tendered. Can we zoom in and scroll down, please.

13 Q. Mr. Stojic, would you please be so kind as to read out the last

14 sentence, which is just above, "Report drawn up by Colonel M.A. Petar

15 Stojic."

16 A. Yes. The last sentence contained my own assessment, which was

17 based on my talks with His Excellency, Mr. Cyrus Vance and members of the

18 delegation, and it is that the visit was very successful; and to that I

19 added, on my part, that is, my own contribution, to which the greatest

20 contribution was rendered by the command of the Operations Group South.

21 Can I comment?

22 Q. Please do.

23 A. From Sid, up to the time we returned again to Sid, we were

24 accompanied at all times by security elements. And because of the very

25 fact that the command had made this assessment, seeing that we were to

Page 15373

1 travel through wooded areas, that there was a possibility for a sniper to

2 open fire at the guests, and because -- also because it was possible for

3 the delegation to see at every moment what was possibly to be seen,

4 generally speaking, it was my assessment that the command of OG South

5 could have done nothing more than that for the delegation.

6 Q. Thank you, Mr. Stojic. Thank you for your answers. Just another

7 question related to the Negoslavci meeting chaired by Commander Mrksic.

8 Can you tell me, in the briefest of terms, what kind of an atmosphere

9 prevailed? Was it tense? Was it relaxed? Was it good? What was your

10 assessment of the overall atmosphere of the meeting?

11 A. The atmosphere was soldierly in the true sense of the word. Only

12 very concrete matters were discussed. The map showed a lot. One could,

13 in particular, see on it the zone of responsibility of the Operations

14 Group South, which was extremely important for Colonel Purola, the

15 military advisor. So they spoke in very specific terms. We followed an

16 agenda with items spelled out beforehand, and I didn't see any problem.

17 Q. Thank you. Thank you, Mr. Stojic.

18 MR. DOMAZET: [Interpretation] Your Honours, this concludes my

19 examination-in-chief of this witness.

20 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you, Mr. Domazet.

21 Mr. Borovic.

22 MR. BULATOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours. I have

23 no questions for this witness.

24 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you.

25 Mr. Lunny.

Page 15374

1 MR. LUNNY: Thank you, Your Honour. If Your Honour would allow me

2 a moment just to set up the lectern. Thank you, Your Honour.

3 Cross-examination by Mr. Lunny:

4 Q. Mr. Stojic, good morning.

5 A. Good morning.

6 Q. With regard to Vukovar in the autumn of 1991, September, October,

7 and November of 1991, the war in Vukovar, the battle in Vukovar, was major

8 news, wasn't it? It was a big event in the former Yugoslavia, wasn't it?

9 A. Well, I wouldn't say that it was major news, that it was breaking

10 news. I am not quite certain, but the idea was that it should be stopped

11 and that a solution should be found without using force, in order to

12 protect the constitutional order.

13 Now, whether Vukovar was the major news amid that, I was rather

14 engaged in diplomatic work and I did not participate in operative meetings

15 or contribute to such assessments.

16 Q. But you were involved in diplomatic work. You're a soldier.

17 There was fighting going on in your country. You would have been watching

18 the news every night on television when you got the chance, wouldn't you?

19 A. When I had the opportunity, yes.

20 Q. And the daily news in Belgrade covered the fighting in Vukovar,

21 and we've seen videos today showing the press at Belgrade -- sorry, at

22 Vukovar, certainly for your trip; isn't that correct?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. And not only was the national press taking an interest in the

25 events in Vukovar, so, too, was the international media. The BBC was

Page 15375

1 there; SkyNews was there. Isn't that also true?

2 A. That is true. That is true. And all the events were covered by

3 them.

4 Q. And this national and international press that had been following

5 Vukovar through September, October, November 1991, was also following what

6 was happening at the hospital, wasn't it?

7 A. It probably was, but I'm here to describe what happened on the

8 19th. As for what happened before or after that, I can only give you a

9 general description. But if you ask me about that particular day, the

10 19th, the 20th, i.e., the 18th, 19th and 20th, in addition to what I have

11 put in my report, I can give you a number of other answers to the best of

12 my recollection.

13 In September and October 1991, and then the end of November and

14 December 1991 and in 1992, all I know about is what happened in that

15 period is a bit more than an ordinary citizen or an ordinary member of the

16 armed forces.

17 Q. So is it your position -- sorry.

18 A. If I can add, I have been called here as a Defence witness to say

19 what I know about the visit, that visit to Vukovar. As regards your

20 question --

21 Q. If I can stop you there, Mr. Stojic. We know you're here to

22 discuss a specific event, but I'm asking you about your general knowledge.

23 You're involved in diplomatic service. You're a soldier in the army. The

24 press and the news with regard to the fighting in Vukovar was something

25 that would have been very important to you, to keep up to date with the

Page 15376

1 diplomatic situation; isn't that correct?

2 A. Well, I say I knew a bit more than the average Yugoslav did, and

3 perhaps I was more interested in specifically that, zone because my mother

4 hails from a village near Vukovar, old Kometinci.

5 Q. You were aware that Vukovar was an important event, and you were

6 aware that the Vukovar Hospital had become part of a cause celebre, if I

7 can call it that, in the media both nationally and internationally; isn't

8 that true?

9 A. I should like to assure the Trial Chamber that I knew less about

10 that hospital and all the events surrounding it than about some other

11 events. That hospital was referred to for the first time in my presence,

12 as I stated in my previous answers, when I was in the compound of the

13 barracks in Vukovar.

14 Q. With regard to your itinerary that day, can you just remind us who

15 it was that drew up the itinerary, the actual stops that you had to go to

16 with Mr. Vance?

17 A. The Deputy Federal Secretary for National Defence, Admiral Brovet,

18 gave me a written itinerary with the indicated working points, as we call

19 them, on route to Vukovar up to the return to our hotel.

20 Q. And that itinerary included stopping at Sid and then Negoslavci

21 headquarters and then the Vukovar barracks and Velepromet; isn't that

22 correct?

23 A. Yes, and at the hospital in Negoslavci. Exactly.

24 Q. So the visit to Negoslavci hospital was also part of the original

25 itinerary given to you on the 18th of November; that's correct?

Page 15377

1 A. That's right.

2 Q. And Vukovar Hospital itself, the general hospital, was not

3 included on that agenda, that itinerary; that's correct?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Are you aware, Mr. Stojic, that Mr. Vance had expressly asked to

6 go to Vukovar Hospital on the 18th of November, the day before you took

7 him to Vukovar?

8 A. I state with full responsibility: No.

9 Q. And any meeting between Mr. Vance and Admiral Brovet to draw up an

10 agenda, you weren't at that meeting.

11 A. No.

12 Q. Mr. Stojic, can you think of any reason why Vukovar Hospital would

13 be kept off of the itinerary or agenda?

14 A. First and foremost, I would like to point out that we went to

15 Negoslavci, as one of these most important points, where the command of

16 Operations Group South was; that is to say, that we did not go to the

17 command post of Operations Group North, on the other side of the Vuka

18 River, where Major General Bjorcevic was commander.

19 The hospital is not the in the zone of responsibility and combat

20 activities. So it was not in the area of responsibility and combat

21 activities of Operations Group South, but on the other side of the Vuka

22 River, I think about four and a half to five kilometres away from

23 barracks.

24 So once I received my assignment to take the delegation to the

25 command post, of course, including these working points like Sid, on route

Page 15378

1 to the command post of Operations Group South, that is the zone outside

2 the territory where the hospital was.

3 Had Admiral Brovet ordered me to go on or to try to visit some

4 other points, within the zone of responsibility of Operations Group North,

5 I would have to know that; and I would then actually cooperate with the

6 commander of Operations Group North, Major General Bjorcevic. However,

7 that was not the case.

8 Q. With regard to Exhibit 70 and the video that you were shown

9 earlier, showing Cyrus Vance and Major Sljivancanin at the barracks, and

10 you described the conversation where Mr. Vance asks to go to the hospital,

11 is it not the case that Mr. Sljivancanin refused to take Mr. Vance to the

12 hospital?

13 A. It is not the case that he refused. He said -- I mean, please,

14 you can have a look at it again. He said that he thought that he could

15 not organise a visit like that over the short term, that that's what he

16 thought. I mean, please, of course this was 15 years ago. I have

17 forgotten quite a bit.

18 But thanks to the report that was submitted to me by Mr. Lukic

19 during these days, in his office, and the footage I saw a while ago, and I

20 saw it at Mr. Lukic's as well, you can see that Mr. Sljivancanin at that

21 time is saying, "I think." He's not saying "I won't" or "I cannot."

22 Q. With regard, then, to the excerpt from the video Exhibit 70,

23 you're saying he's saying -- sorry, you've said that Sljivancanin was not

24 saying "won't" or "cannot." But can we look, please, at the transcript of

25 the video that was distributed earlier.

Page 15379

1 MR. LUNNY: Now, the English is page 2, line 14. And there is a

2 B/C/S version for the witness, if he would desire that, although I'll give

3 him the English and the B/C/S for sake of completeness. If I could ask

4 that to be given to the witness just now, Your Honour. From the English

5 page -- before we do that.

6 Q. Mr. Stojic, are you happy to work from the English translation,

7 given the level of your English influency?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Thank you. If we can then look, please, at page 2, starting at

10 line 7, you will see a request from Cyrus Vance asking to go to the

11 hospital; isn't that correct?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. And at line 14, we have Major Sljivancanin's response: "I think I

14 cannot ensure that at the moment." He is using the word "cannot," and he

15 is disallowing any visit to the hospital at that stage; is that correct?

16 A. Only in part. May I explain? In our language, when somebody says

17 "I think," that is the conditional; that is to say, that is what he

18 thinks; that that is impossible due to the shortness of time and because

19 he does not know what the situation was.

20 On the other hand, even if the situation were 100 percent safe and

21 secure, according to military regulations, one commander, rather, one unit

22 cannot do something without previously reaching agreement on that activity

23 with another unit that is responsible for that zone; that is to say, that

24 on the assumption that even if one could have gone to the hospital and

25 even if there had been enough time - let us disregard for the moment the

Page 15380

1 fact that Mr. Vance was supposed to continue his very complicated journey

2 via Grac to Zagreb, because he had meetings scheduled there -

3 communication had to be established with the command of Group North. Even

4 if the security situation were all right, that had to be agreed upon so

5 time was required.

6 When somebody says "I think, I cannot," in our language, that is

7 the conditional; that is to say, something that he is not sure that he can

8 do, that he thinks he cannot do; or, perhaps, some circumstances may prove

9 to be helpful and change the situation into it actually being possible. I

10 don't think that we can look upon this as a refusal on his part, only he

11 is saying that he thinks he cannot.

12 That is why, in my report, I stated the following sentence: "That

13 in a well-augmented, well-founded fashion, an explanation was provided to

14 Mr. Vance what the situation was regarding the hospital."

15 I wrote my report a few hours after our return, trying to include

16 each and every detail in order to know who did what and whether that was

17 done properly, and who was responsible for what.

18 Q. I'll stop you there, Mr. Stojic. Given that explanation --

19 rather, in spite of that explanation, Major Sljivancanin did not take any

20 steps to see if the visit to the hospital was possible, nor did he make

21 any inquiries to see if a visit to the hospital was possible; isn't that

22 true?

23 A. That's not the way it was exactly. Quite simply, Mr. Cyrus Vance

24 did not really insist very much. I claim that with responsibility. He

25 asked two or three times, but -- I mean, I was following everything that

Page 15381

1 was going on, but I started thinking --

2 Q. Please, Mr. Stojic, the question was: Did --

3 A. Yes, go ahead.

4 Q. Sorry. Mr. Stojic, did Major Sljivancanin make any inquiries

5 about going to the hospital?

6 A. I didn't see that, whether he was making any inquiries.

7 Q. And, Mr. Stojic, you were asked about a rifle being pointed at Mr.

8 Vance by Major Sljivancanin. The Prosecution does not accept the position

9 you've given. Is it not the case that Mr. Sljivancanin did, indeed, raise

10 a rifle towards Mr. Vance?

11 A. That is not true. That is absolutely untrue. He didn't even have

12 a rifle, by the way. And even if that had been the case, it would have

13 figured very prominently in my report. And also, all the media, all the

14 world media and our media, would have presented that as breaking news in

15 their headlines. If somebody points a rifle at someone, then they do not

16 really shake hands; whereas, when they parted, Mr. Vance shook hands with

17 him and they said goodbye quite normally.

18 Q. With regard to that report you've mentioned, Exhibit 861 --

19 MR. LUNNY: I wonder if we can have that on the screens, Your

20 Honour.

21 Q. Your report, Mr. Stojic, would have been prepared carefully, and

22 you wanted it to be accurate, didn't you?

23 A. Yes.

24 THE INTERPRETER: Could the Prosecutor please switch off the

25 microphone when the witness is speaking. Thank you.

Page 15382


2 Q. If Mr. Vance had said anything that you did not agree with, you

3 would have had the opportunity to refer to that in this report, wouldn't

4 you?

5 A. Yes.

6 MR. LUNNY: And can we please look at page 2 of the English

7 version and page 3 of the B/C/S version of that document, please.

8 Q. You reported, Mr. Stojic, that Cyrus Vance had stressed that the

9 volunteers and the territorial units "are behaving in a manner somewhat

10 unfit for a soldier, and they should be put under control as soon as

11 possible." Do you recall that?

12 A. I recall that, because I saw it the other day. When speaking to

13 Mr. Lukic, I was reminded of that. I saw that report a few days ago here

14 in The Hague.

15 Q. Do you agree, Mr. Stojic, that by using the word "behaving," it

16 conveys that the TO and volunteers were doing something actively to be

17 seen to be unfit for soldiers, rather than just standing and the way they

18 were dressed?

19 A. He probably thought that if someone was attired in an unsoldierly

20 way, that that person was prepared to do something that was not in

21 accordance with regulations. But now I cannot say whether that was

22 exactly what he meant. He saw, on the approaches to the barracks; that is

23 to say, outside the compound - and I saw it, too, because I was with him

24 all the time - a few armed members whose attire showed that they did not

25 belong to the operative part of the Yugoslav People's Army.

Page 15383

1 He probably thought that these people would be capable of doing

2 something that was not in accordance with military regulations. That is

3 why I mentioned that in my report, so that my superiors would be prepared

4 to talk about this and take certain measures to resolve that.

5 Q. If I can move on, please, Mr. Stojic, to the meeting between Cyrus

6 Vance and General Kadijevic after your return from Vukovar. Can I suggest

7 to you that at that meeting, the one you've described, that contrary to

8 your evidence this morning, Mr. Vance was furious at the treatment he had

9 received from Major Sljivancanin, and he was furious about the general

10 treatment from the JNA; isn't that true?

11 A. That is untrue.

12 Q. Is it not the case that Mr. Vance told General Kadijevic that

13 whilst he was in Vukovar, he had been obstructed?

14 A. This is the first time I hear of any such thing.

15 Q. Is it not the case that Mr. Vance told General Kadijevic that

16 there were physical efforts to intimidate him whilst he was in Vukovar?

17 A. That is not the case. That is not true.

18 Q. And is it not true that Mr. Vance told General Kadijevic that

19 whilst he was in Vukovar, the JNA had been telling him falsehoods and

20 telling him lies.

21 A. That is absolutely untrue.

22 Q. Mr. Stojic, are you sure you were at this meeting between Mr.

23 Vance and General Kadijevic?

24 A. When such meetings were held, I would definitely attend, and I was

25 definitely present on that day. But I do have to say that the protocol

Page 15384

1 office that I was head of does not take direct part in the talks at the

2 table. We have -- we had four of our representatives sitting at the

3 table; General Kadijevic, with the four officials who were mentioned

4 already. The recording clerk keeps minutes at a separate table. All the

5 while, I'm there, waiting, standing by, listening, and waiting for orders

6 as to what I should do further.

7 In such an activity, such a visit, the chief of the

8 administration, or rather, the liaison office is definitely always

9 involved. And, in view of the fact that I had compiled -- that I have to

10 write a report, that they were discussing -- that they also had my report,

11 it was logical that I should be there, because they could have asked me

12 questions in relation to that report, to what I had put in it.

13 MR. LUNNY: May the witness please be shown Exhibit 68, Your

14 Honours, and in particular, page 3 of the four-page exhibit.

15 Q. Mr. Stojic, do you now see that in front of you on the screen, a

16 handwritten document with two pages?

17 A. Yes, I do.

18 Q. Mr. Stojic, that is the diary of Herbert Okun, Ambassador Okun,

19 and we've heard evidence that he made contemporaneous notes during the

20 course of this delegation, this trip to Belgrade, to Vukovar, and so

21 forth. If we look at the left-hand page of page 3, it's got "92" in the

22 top left corner. Do you see "92?"

23 A. Yes. Yes, I do see 92.

24 Q. And it would appear, Mr. Stojic, wouldn't it, that this was a

25 meeting in Belgrade on 21st November of 1991, at 2 p.m. to 2.50 p.m., and

Page 15385

1 it lists a number of names there, which includes General Kadijevic and

2 next to the letters UN, "CRV." Now, you've heard evidence that "CRV" is

3 Cyrus Vance. This is a record from Mr. Okun as to who was at the meeting.

4 Your name is on that list anywhere, is it?

5 A. No. It is not, but can I explain?

6 Q. The question was: Was your name on it? And your answer was no.

7 If my learned friend wants to clear up anything in re-examination, he may

8 do so. But your name is not on that list; isn't that correct?

9 A. That is correct.

10 Q. And we'll see further down the page, about halfway down the

11 left-hand page, the words "matters of concern;" and two lines before that,

12 "increased violence, Vukovar, disproportionate use of force at Vuk".

13 Now, is it the case that Mr. Vance was at the clear at that meeting, and

14 he clearly told General Kadijevic that he was unhappy with the situation

15 in Vukovar and he was unhappy with his treatment at Vukovar?

16 A. It is not true that he said anything about not having been treated

17 well during his visit to Vukovar. Actually, that was not discussed at

18 all. And as regards these names, if you will allow me, they stated the

19 party participating in the conversation. General Jovic, the ex-commander

20 of the United Nations, is the person whom I replaced, General Slavko

21 Jovic. Then the protocol, the typist, the steno clerk, the recording

22 service, they are sitting on the side and recording the minutes, and I was

23 in charge of that particular activity. I was not participating in the

24 talks. Everybody's place was known.

25 Q. Can we turn, please, to the next page in the exhibit, page 4,

Page 15386

1 which has "96" -- the number "96" in the top left-hand corner and the

2 number "97" in the top right-hand corner. Do you see that document, Mr.

3 Stojic?

4 A. Yes, I do.

5 Q. Or that page, rather.

6 A. Yes. Yes, I do see it.

7 Q. And there seems to be on the right-hand page, page 97, next to the

8 entry "3.35 p.m. to 4.30 p.m." reference to a meeting between Cyrus Vance

9 and the late President Slobodan Milosevic. Do you see that?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. You weren't present for that meeting, were you?

12 A. No, I wasn't.

13 MR. LUNNY: If Your Honour would allow me for one minute, there's

14 one question I want to ask, but I have to confer with my learned friend

15 next to me. If Your Honour would allow me a moment. Thank you.

16 [Prosecution counsel confer]

17 MR. LUNNY: Thank you, Your Honour.

18 Q. Just very briefly, one more question, Mr. Stojic, and just to go

19 back to your briefing with Colonel Mrksic. Were you never told that --

20 rather, strike that. Were you told that OG South had been asked to take

21 the hospital on the 18th of November, 1991?

22 A. This is the first time I hear of it.

23 Q. And that that was to be completed by the morning of the 19th of

24 November at 10 a.m. No one told you that?

25 A. I assert with full responsibility, before this honourable Trial

Page 15387

1 Chamber, that not even Mr. Lukic mentioned that to me. And this is the

2 first time I hear of it.

3 Q. Thank you, Mr. Stojic. I have no further questions.

4 MR. LUNNY: Thank you, Your Honour.

5 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you, Mr. Lunny.

6 Mr. Lukic.

7 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I believe that we can immediately

8 proceed.

9 Re-examination by Mr. Lukic:

10 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Stojic, had Mr. Vance insisted that he visit

11 the hospital at Vukovar, could Major Sljivancanin have prevented you from

12 taking Mr. Vance to the hospital?

13 A. No, he could not.

14 Q. You said that there were a lot of journalists there. Mr. Lunny

15 also asked you about them. In the days that followed, if you had occasion

16 at all to follow the media reports, did you see in any media source,

17 either domestic or foreign press, that any incidents during Mr. Vance's

18 visit to Vukovar was mentioned?

19 A. No.

20 Q. Mr. Lunny showed you your report in which you put certain remarks

21 by Mr. Vance which he gave to you when you were returning home, including

22 those related to the territorials, and those objections of his were

23 inserted in your report.

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Had Mr. Vance voiced any assertions about things that were not

Page 15388

1 part of your report to General Kadijevic, what would have been the

2 consequences for you personally, as the person who compiled the report?

3 A. It was my task to monitor, to follow, everything else closely and

4 to draw up a very objective report, in order for General Kadijevic, with

5 his associates, to be able to prepare themselves for the conversation and

6 to know what needed to be undertaken to resolve problems, if any.

7 I wrote that report, as you know, for several hours after

8 returning to Belgrade, when this august Tribunal hadn't even been set up,

9 when we didn't know how events would actually evolve. So my intention was

10 to write an objective report and to include in it everything which was of

11 consequence during that visit, which was material. If there had been

12 anything that I omitted to include in my report and had happened, not only

13 would I have been replaced, but I would have borne more difficult

14 consequences, quite probably; not to mention that in a way, I, as you well

15 know, Mr. Lukic, was a part of that military top leadership.

16 Truth to tell, not in its operational segment. I have referred to

17 my role in the protocol a number of times. So I would have been lying to

18 myself had I produced an untruthful report. Apart from that, I did not

19 know Major Sljivancanin at all. I came to know him much better later than

20 then.

21 So if you ask me, during that visit, Mr. Sljivancanin does speak

22 in a loud voice, whether he is at a party or carrying out a task, but that

23 certainly could not be seen or lead to a conclusion that he was

24 impertinent.

25 Now, as regards your question whether he could have prevented him,

Page 15389

1 had Mr. Cyrus Vance insisted to go to the hospital, although that would

2 have been complicated because of the shortness of time, because of his

3 trip, because the hospital was in the zone of another group, of another

4 operations group, Group North, I would have called Admiral Brovet, in that

5 case, and briefed him of the newly emerged situation for him to make a

6 decision as to what we should be -- what we should do. In that case,

7 General Kadijevic would have ordered the commander of the Operations Group

8 South how to proceed; and, thereby, my own responsibility would have

9 ended.

10 As that didn't happen, I described the entire sequence of events

11 in my report as they unfolded, endeavouring in the process to include in

12 it everything which is relevant and to portray a picture for General

13 Kadijevic and his associates of how everything had transpired.

14 Q. Thank you. I believe that that is clear. Did you want to append

15 any further explanations? But we do want to be concise.

16 A. If you have a specific question.

17 Q. Mr. Lunny also asked you whether you had seen Mr. Sljivancanin

18 make any further inquiries, whether it was possible to go to the hospital,

19 and you said that he didn't. So I'm asking you this: After your talk

20 with Mr. Vance, did he ever again voice a wish to go and see the hospital?

21 But just be brief.

22 A. No.

23 Q. Thank you.

24 A. And to tell you something, I was relieved.

25 Q. Why?

Page 15390

1 A. Because I would have had to call Admiral Brovet; and you know

2 something, it wasn't all that simple. It was 4.5 kilometres off. The

3 hospital was downtown in the center, and I would have had to use the

4 stairs, and so on and so forth. I don't want to dwell much upon it.

5 Q. Thank you. Thank you. Just another topic, very briefly. Mr.

6 Lunny showed you Mr. Okun's log, where your name is not mentioned as being

7 present at a meeting with Mr. Kadijevic. And he states that he -- he

8 submits that you were not, in fact, present at that meeting, and you

9 explained how it had been. My question is different. There is no need

10 for you to look at every page. Mr. Lunny can also confirm this. Your

11 name is not mentioned either when you went to Vukovar, so I am going to

12 ask you this: Did you go to Vukovar on that day?

13 A. You saw me on the footage; and also it may be of interest to note

14 that I hosted a dinner for Mr. Okun and the delegation at the army centre

15 of Yugoslavia, after this meeting in the Federal Secretariat for National

16 Defence, and we had a very good time, especially with Mr. Purola, with

17 Mr. Purola and Okun. And as for the rifle --

18 Q. There is no need to comment further on this point.

19 Mr. Stojic, I have no further questions for you?

20 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Stojic, you will be glad to know that that

21 concludes the questions that are to be asked of you. The Chamber would

22 thank you for your attendance here and your assistance, and you, of

23 course, are now free to go back to your ordinary affairs. Thank you very

24 much. The court officer will take you out. Sorry, you were wanting to

25 say something?

Page 15391

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honours, it is an honour and

2 privilege for me to have had this opportunity to be acquainted with this

3 honourable Trial Chamber. I thank you very much for the fair treatment

4 accorded to me on the part of all the parties in this august Tribunal.

5 Thank you very much once again.

6 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you, sir.

7 [The witness stands down]

8 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Lukic.

9 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I thank all my colleagues and my

10 adversaries for having dealt with this witness expeditiously, and even

11 faster than we had envisaged. So for the first time, our Defence team is

12 in a situation of not having a witness to call. Perhaps we could have

13 rested a bit more last week instead of working so quickly. So we will be

14 calling our next witness on Monday, according to our schedule, as

15 announced. I apologise. Mr. Karanfilov will be our next witness on

16 Monday, as envisaged.

17 [Trial Chamber confers]

18 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Lukic, we appreciate the position, and it will

19 we necessary, therefore, to adjourn early today, to resume on Monday, I

20 think it is at 2.15 on Monday. We will now adjourn.

21 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 12.15 p.m.,

22 to be reconvened on Monday, the 27th day of

23 November, 2006, at 2.15 p.m.