1 Friday, 6 October 2000
2 [Status Conference]
3 [Open session]
4 [The appellants entered court]
5 --- Upon commencing at 10.33 a.m.
6 JUDGE HUNT: Call the case, please.
7 THE REGISTRAR: The Prosecutor versus Zejnil Delalic, Zdravko
8 Mucic, Hazim Delic, and Esad Landzo. Case number IT-96-21-A.
9 JUDGE HUNT: Appearances, please, for the Prosecution.
10 MR. YAPA: May it please Your Honour. I'm Upawansa Yapa,
11 appearing for the Prosecution. With me is Mr. Roeland Bos. Mr. George
12 Huber is the case manager.
13 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you very much. Obviously, nobody on behalf of
14 Mr. Delalic.
15 For Mucic, Mr. Morrison. For Delic, yes, Mr. Karabdic. And for
16 Landzo, Mr. Murphy.
17 MR. MURPHY: Yes, Your Honour.
18 JUDGE HUNT: Perhaps because we haven't been here for awhile I
19 should check whether each of the accused can hear the proceedings in a
20 language which they understand.
21 Mr. Mucic, are you able to hear the proceedings in a language
22 which you understand? Thank you.
23 Mr. Delic? Thank you.
24 And Mr. Landzo?
25 THE APPELLANT LANDZO: Yes.
1 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you very much.
2 Now, each of you have given us notice that you wish to attend. I
3 assume the Prosecution is here simply to answer things rather than to
4 raise something.
5 MR. YAPA: Yes, Your Honour.
6 JUDGE HUNT: Very well, then. Well, Mr. Morrison, you're here for
7 Mr. Mucic. You're the next one on the record.
8 MR. MORRISON: If it please Your Honour. I am acutely aware that
9 I suspect we are all here to some extent to wait to see what other people
10 are saying and to respond to it.
11 JUDGE HUNT: Well, that's very interesting. That's a long way to
13 MR. MORRISON: Well, it wasn't for me but it was for some people,
14 I appreciate that. There are, however, two issues which arise in the case
15 of Mr. Mucic.
16 The first is this: Obviously, and I accept that the judgement
17 will be delivered as soon as practicable, but Zdravko Mucic wishes to make
18 it plain that given his current sentence under Dutch law, he's been
19 advised by Mr. McFadden that as matters would stand on his existing
20 sentence, he would be due to be released in early November.
21 I don't know what the position is going to be as to the date of
22 the delivery of judgement. It may be that the judgement would be
23 delivered prior to that actual release date; it may be that it will not.
24 JUDGE HUNT: Mr. Morrison, you have told us on a number of
25 occasions that you have judicial duties yourself to perform from time to
1 time, and you know that there's no way I can tell you when the judgement
2 will be given. It is well under way and will be given as soon as it can
3 possibly be given. I don't want to give you any hope that it will be
4 given on any particular day or by any particular time. It's simply a
5 matter of ensuring that five Judges can agree upon its terms, which is a
6 bit more difficult than I should think you have to worry about yourself.
7 MR. MORRISON: Your Honour, I have enough trouble agreeing with
8 myself on occasions. I'm fully cognisant of the problems of multiplying
9 that by five.
10 The second matter is --
11 JUDGE HUNT: In relation to his sentence, it was seven years,
12 wasn't it? And you're assuming that he's going to be kept in the
13 Netherlands, which is an assumption I don't think you're entitled to
15 MR. MORRISON: Your Honour, with respect, not an assumption that
16 I've made but a matter of practical advice that has been tendered to
17 Mr. Mucic by Mr. McFadden at the prison.
18 JUDGE HUNT: Yes, that if he was being kept by the Dutch
19 authorities, then that's so. But he's being kept by the United Nations'
20 authorities at the moment in an area within the Netherlands, and he's not
21 kept pursuant to the Netherlands' release provisions. But there are
22 others that have got two-thirds, and I can see that it must run out --
23 seven years from, when was it, the 18th of March, 1996, so it must be
24 sometime in November, two-thirds. Of course, he may be sent to Spain, and
25 Spain has three-quarters.
1 MR. MORRISON: I can't say I'd object myself to having a hearing
2 in Spain --
3 JUDGE HUNT: No, no, not a hearing in Spain, but he may have to
4 serve his sentence in Spain. I shouldn't be light-hearted about it. It's
5 obviously a very important thing. I can only say that it's unfortunate
6 that this appeal took so long to get under way because of the parties'
7 manoeuvrings over a period of, I think, nearly 18 months before we got
8 under way. However, that's something that's gone by the by, and we will
9 keep in mind your client's rather precarious position.
10 MR. MORRISON: That's all I ask, Your Honour.
11 The second point is one which I fully appreciate is not
12 necessarily within the bailiwick of your normal powers or
13 responsibilities, but Mr. Mucic is anxious that it be raised, and that's
14 this: He has, during his time in custody, had very few visits. He has a
15 son and a daughter in Austria who have visited him on two or three
16 occasions over his period of custody, but no one else. There is, in fact,
17 a couple who are not related to him, Mrs. Bloemkoelk-Turk and
18 Mr. Colakovic, who have made repeated requests through Tom Kuzmanovic to
19 be allowed to have a visit, and it's not met with favourable response from
20 the administration. The reality of the position is that if those people
21 would be allowed to visit, it can do no harm.
22 JUDGE HUNT: Are they resident here in the Netherlands?
23 MR. MORRISON: They are.
24 JUDGE HUNT: Yes. As you have foreseen, it has really nothing to
25 do with the Tribunal or the Appeals Chamber. It's a matter which if you
1 don't get satisfaction from the superintendent, from memory, you go
2 through the Registrar to the President. And may I suggest that that's
3 what should be done. I don't know what the regulations are about how
4 closely people have to be related before they're allowed to visit. It
5 seems to me that that's a matter, though, that could well be ventilated --
6 I don't think there's an appeal, but I think there's some sort of
7 administrative procedure that you have to follow.
8 MR. MORRISON: Your Honour will understand that it's a matter of
9 importance for the client to have the matter raised in court, and of
10 course the suggestion which Your Honour has made is one that can be
11 pursued, and I'm grateful.
12 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you very much.
13 Mr. Karabdic, what do you want to raise on behalf of your client?
14 THE INTERPRETER: Could counsel please be advised to turn on
15 the microphone.
16 JUDGE HUNT: Microphone.
17 MR. KARABDIC: [Interpretation] The issue which I was about to
18 raise with you, in fact, has been answered now, which is that my client
19 has been in detention for a long period of time, since the sentence has
20 been passed, the judgement has been passed, about two years ago, and he is
21 living in uncertainty. He would like to know when this final judgement is
22 going to come down. He is aware that the Appeals Chamber is working and
23 that it will do its best to issue the judgement as soon as it is
24 practicable. However, he is trying to deal with this uncertainty, but I
25 believe now we have heard an answer coming from you and we'll have to
2 He also has problems with visits, but we believe that we can solve
3 these problems with the management of the Detention Unit. He is not able
4 to get all the visits that he wants, but I believe that we can solve these
6 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you very much, indeed.
7 Mr. Murphy.
8 MR. MURPHY: Your Honour, yes. Your Honour, Mr. Landzo has one
9 problem which he has tried to resolve with the administration of the
10 Detention Unit without success, and which I have also made some
11 representations on his behalf, and that is this: He suffers very badly
12 from asthma. Your Honour, he has had during his time in detention quite a
13 number of visits with the medical advisor, the doctor, to the Detention
14 Unit, and also with representatives of the Red Cross, and he's made a
15 number of requests through administrative channels that the Detention Unit
16 take some steps to provide a segregated area for those who do not smoke.
17 Apparently, Your Honour, the presence of cigarette smoke is very prevalent
18 in the Detention Unit and his condition is worsening because of that.
19 Your Honour, I've had the opportunity to talk to Mr. McFadden
20 myself on that subject, and the issue seems to be this: Obviously, there
21 are some instances in which Mr. McFadden has to segregate certain
22 detainees from others; some of these, of course, by personal animosities
23 and some by ethnic divisions. And he tells me that quite a high
24 percentage of the inmates do smoke.
25 Your Honour, my position on behalf of Mr. Landzo is simply this:
1 Given what one knows these days about the effects of secondhand smoke, it
2 is unreasonable for Mr. Landzo to be detained in an environment where he
3 cannot escape from that. Several different floors are available at the
4 Detention Unit, and it is my submission that it would be a reasonably
5 simple matter to provide a floor, or part of a floor, for those prisoners
6 who do not smoke, or particularly those who cannot tolerate cigarette
8 Your Honour, given the length of time Mr. Landzo has been there,
9 and of course we don't know how much longer he may be there, this is a
10 matter which is, perhaps, deserving of the Court's attention. I would ask
11 Your Honour to consider asking the Registry to have some dialogue with
12 Mr. McFadden about creating this kind of environment for Mr. Landzo. Your
13 Honour, it is an important medical concern; he's been advised that this is
14 causing damage to his health.
15 JUDGE HUNT: This is a matter which was raised, I remember, at the
16 first of the Status Conferences under the amended Rule --
17 MR. MURPHY: Yes.
18 JUDGE HUNT: -- and I said at the time to your lead counsel that
19 it's a matter that if you don't get satisfaction from Mr. McFadden, you
20 have to take it up through the Registry to the President.
21 If there's one thing that any court must understand is that they
22 do not have the expertise to run a gaol. It has to be done by experts.
23 And I think you've probably referred to the real problems that do arise.
24 I have had a little experience from being part of an inquiry into
25 a gaol system once, and the problems are manifold. They're not as easy as
1 even you put them. And I certainly am not in any position to say anything
2 except to say you should take it up through the Registry or the Registrar
3 with the President, and it may be that there can be something done.
4 One thing that I have noticed since I've come to live in
5 Europe is that the prevalence of smoking here is very much higher than
6 anywhere else I've ever come across in my life, but that's general in the
7 community; and to a non-smoker, I agree, it's not pleasant. But I can't
8 say anything, I can't do anything, I can't give any direction, I can't
9 give any advice. Mr. McFadden, I hope, has discussed it, but you may be
10 able to persuade the President, perhaps, that something more can be looked
11 at. But I can't really put the Appeals Chamber into the fight, if I may
12 put it that way.
13 MR. MURPHY: No, Your Honour, of course, and I wouldn't ask Your
14 Honour to make any positive indication beyond, perhaps, indicating on the
15 record that it would be an appropriate matter for the Registry to discuss
16 with Mr. McFadden.
17 JUDGE HUNT: I'm sorry. I really cannot buy into what I've
18 described, perhaps wrongly in an international tribunal, but as a domestic
19 issue. It really has nothing to do with us. And other than to advise
20 you, or your client through you, that he has an avenue of review, I
21 suppose is the best way of putting it, through the President, I can't
22 really buy into it and put the weight of my authority into any part of
23 this equation.
24 I understand the problem, I sympathise with your client, but to
25 tell the superintendent of the gaol, who has, I think, still only three
1 floors, although I think they may have another area now, that he must
2 segregate it so that there should be a non-smoker's area is just not part
3 of my expertise.
4 But it's now on the record, and you can probably use the
5 transcript as part of your appeal to the President.
6 MR. MURPHY: Yes, indeed, Your Honour.
7 JUDGE HUNT: There's nothing more I can say, really.
8 MR. MURPHY: Your Honour, there are other matters, but those are
9 other matters which we can take up directly with Mr. McFadden.
10 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you very much.
11 MR. MURPHY: Thank you very much, Your Honour.
12 JUDGE HUNT: Mr. Yapa, is there anything you want to say about any
13 of the matters that have been raised?
14 MR. YAPA: Thank you, Your Honour. I do not think there are any
15 matters on which we have a say, and we have no submissions.
16 JUDGE HUNT: We're very grateful to you all for coming such a long
17 way. I'm sorry that you don't get any particular comfort out of what's
18 happened, but I think you may have foreseen that that must be the result.
19 A Status Conference is not really for these issues.
20 I will adjourn.
21 --- Whereupon the Status Conference adjourned at
22 10.49 a.m.