1 12th March 1997
2 (10.00 am)
3 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Good morning, ladies and gentlemen. We
4 are back this morning, and, as I stated before we rose
5 last night, Mrs Residovic will now have
6 cross-examination of the witness, but, before then,
7 could we have the appearances, please?
8 MR OSTBERG: Good morning, your Honour. I am Eric Ostberg.
9 With me today is, as yesterday, Mr Giuliano Turone and
10 Mrs Teresa McHenry and our assistant and case manager,
11 Mrs Ellis van Dusschoten.
12 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Can we have the appearances for the
13 defence in the order of the accused persons?
14 MS RESIDOVIC (in interpretation): Good morning, your
15 Honours. I am Edina Residovic, defence counsel of
16 Mr Zejnil Delalic. With me is Mr Eugene O'Sullivan,
17 Professor, and Mr Ekrem Galijatovic, attorney at law.
18 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Can we have counsel for the second
19 accused person?
20 MR TAPUSKOVIC (in interpretation): Good morning, your
21 Honours. I am Branislav Tapuskovic, attorney, defence
22 counsel of Mr Pavo Mucic, and with me is my associate,
23 attorney Mira Tapuskovic.
24 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Counsel for the third accused, please?
25 MR KARABDIC (in interpretation): Good morning, your
1 Honours. My name is Salih Karabdic and with me is
2 co-defence counsel, Thomas Moran.
3 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: And can we have counsel for the fourth
5 MR BRACKOVIC (in interpretation): Good morning, your
6 Honours. I am Mustafa Brackovic, attorney from
7 Sarajevo. With me in the team defending Mr Landzo is
8 Miss Cynthia McMurrey, thank you.
9 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Let me explain again. In all
10 cross-examinations, or even in examinations, this order
11 should be adhered to. If counsel decide to choose one
12 of their number to cross-examine for the rest, that
13 should be taken as cross-examination for the rest of
14 them who have surrendered their chance and choose that
15 counsel. Otherwise it would mean counsel biting twice
16 in respect of the same cherry. So we have Mrs Residovic
17 now, and I think this is the only time I will make that
19 MS RESIDOVIC (in interpretation): Your Honour, before
20 taking the floor in the cross-examination, may I just
21 say a few words linked to this decision, this ruling of
23 I think that we will thereby facilitate our task
24 and that of the Trial Chamber. On 22nd July and 20th
25 August, during status conferences on motions of
1 Delalic's defence counsel for separate trials, Judge
2 McDonald and Mr Bora drew our attention to the interest
3 of our client in following a joint trial, because one of
4 the decisive issues is the existence of acts for which
5 superiors would be liable.
6 For this reason, the defence proposed, at our
7 previous session, that the beginning of
8 cross-examination would start by defence counsel of
9 those accused who are most directly linked to the act,
10 which is a pre-condition for any possible responsibility
11 of a superior.
12 Therefore, I beg you, your Honour, to permit us to
13 engage in cross-examination, whereas we would inform you
14 every day of the order in which the counsel would
15 cross-examine. If you could grant this, we would
16 appreciate it very much, your Honour.
17 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Actually, the procedure I have just
18 outlined is very simple. If you have nothing to
19 cross-examine, you do not. Only counsel who has
20 something to cross-examine about is the one to take the
21 floor, and you merely say "I have no cross-examination",
22 and that should be sufficient.
23 MS RESIDOVIC (in interpretation): Yes, but can that be done
24 in a different order from the one that you have
25 indicated, that is that the counsel of those accused who
1 are charged with the principal offence could be the
2 first? That would be our request, if possible.
3 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Please try and abide by what I have
4 just said.
5 MS RESIDOVIC (in interpretation): Thank you, your Honour.
6 MS McMURREY: Your Honour, may I add a little bit to this,
7 in that we had asked before that the court give us
8 guidance in this, and the court left it to the defence
10 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Actually, what I have asked is for
11 Mrs Residovic to start her cross-examination.
12 MS McMURREY: Yes, your Honour.
13 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Let the witness return.
14 MR ANTONIUS GERARDUS FRANCISCUS BEELEN (continued)
15 Cross-examination by MS RESIDOVIC
16 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: You still should remind him he is under
18 THE REGISTRAR: We would remind you you are still under
20 A. Yes, I know.
21 MS RESIDOVIC (in interpretation): Your Honour, may I inform
22 you that our system is not functioning?
23 (Short technical interruption)
24 Mr Beelen, my name is Edina Residovic, defence
25 counsel of Mr Zejnil Delalic. Allow me to ask you a few
1 questions. The Celebici facility that you visited
2 during your expert investigation, did it exist before
3 the beginning of the war?
4 A. They told me it was before the war and it was an oil
5 camp, and it existed before the war.
6 Q. So it was a military facility, a military barracks?
7 A. Yes, it was a military camp.
8 Q. When you visited it, was it the barracks of the army of
9 Bosnia and Herzegovina?
10 A. When we were there, there were soldiers in it and there
11 were Bosnians.
12 Q. Therefore it was not a camp at the time you visited it?
13 A. It was not a camp -- before the war it was not a camp to
14 keep prisoners in. That was what he told me, but it was
15 just a military camp for the storage of fuel products.
16 Q. And it was not a detention camp at the time you visited
17 it either?
18 A. No, it was not.
19 Q. You used the term "camp" and "concentration camp" in
20 your report and the sketches, because somebody told you
21 that, in the meantime, it had been used as a camp.
22 Those were not your words. Those were not words that
23 you used on the basis of what you saw personally?
24 A. In Holland, we call them military base camp, military
25 camp, so I think it is a little bit -- just a name. It
1 had nothing to do with what kind of prisoner camp. It
2 is just a camp for us.
3 Q. You carried out measurements, and you established that
4 the surface of the facility is about 50,000 square
5 metres. It could be even 55,000 square metres. Is that
7 A. It is about 50,000 square metres.
8 Q. Did you see the books and the layout of the facility in
9 the books, in the land books?
10 A. In the land books, no, I did not.
11 Q. Did you see the design documents for the Celebici
13 A. No, we did not.
14 Q. If in those documents you find different measurements
15 and dimensions, would you accept that they could differ
16 from what you said?
17 A. That is possible. We just make for ourselves four
18 measure points, and from thereon we did all our
19 measurements, so it could be that the total area of the
20 military base is a little bit longer or a little bit
21 smaller than this.
22 Q. You showed on video tape the path you followed in making
23 the film. You showed us the path you took when taking
24 the video. Did you indicate that path in your sketch?
25 A. Yes, we did.
1 Q. Which sketch, please? Is it sketch number 1?
2 A. Sketch number 1.
3 Q. In the table that path is not indicated. Can you show
4 me on the sketch the path you moved along?
5 A. There is a little footpath alongside the railroad at the
6 outside of the camp. So it ends with the little gate
7 down there, and then it is going on to the village.
8 Q. Within the facility itself, there is an asphalt road, as
9 shown on the video. Will you show me on your sketch the
10 facility where that road is, and what number it bears,
11 what indication?
12 A. The asphalt road is from point 2 to point 3, and then it
13 goes back from 4 to point 1.
14 Q. Has it been included in the sketch with precision like
15 the railway line?
16 A. Yes, it is. We took measurements of all the bends in
17 the road and marked them on our sketch.
18 Q. Thank you. In taking the video, you were going along
19 the path in front of the hangar; is that right?
20 A. Say it again?
21 Q. Were you moving along a path in front of building number
22 6, the hangar, when taking the video?
23 A. Yes, we were walking on the asphalt road.
24 Q. Is that the only direction that one has to follow to
25 reach that spot?
1 A. It is the usual way you go there, but you also can go
2 over the hills and across the railroad, but that is not
3 what we did.
4 Q. Will you please show me on the sketch how you moved when
5 you were taking the video?
6 A. We travelled the total area clockwise. So we started at
7 the reception, the main gate. Then we walked through B
8 to building D, and so on, until the end of the camp, to
9 building L, it is, and then back at the side to the gate
10 again. While we were walking, we went all around all
11 the buildings, made photographs, made videos, and then
12 walked along to the next building.
13 Q. Could you have reached building L going from the
14 entrance gate following the upper path?
15 A. Yes, it is possible.
16 Q. That the shorter route, is it a quicker way to reach
17 building L?
18 A. I do not think so. It is about the same distance, only
19 it is a little bit higher up.
20 Q. If you used that path to reach building L, you must have
21 passed in front of building 6?
22 A. You mean building 6 at this side, which we called
23 building -- what is it --
24 Q. The building that the prosecution drew your attention
1 A. No, that is not the one that the prosecution told us.
2 You just saw it from above, so you could see the roof of
3 it. It is building E.
4 Q. Very well. Can you see tunnel number 9 from building
5 number 22, that you call a dispensary?
6 A. When you were in the outside, in the direction of the
7 rail which we mentioned on our schedule, then you could
8 see the tunnel. When you are in the other side in the
9 direction of building D, it was not possible.
10 Q. If you were inside building 22, can you see the tunnel?
11 A. I cannot tell you.
12 Q. Can you see it from the reception, the tunnel, can you
13 see the tunnel from the reception?
14 A. When in the room of the technician, at the far side to
15 the tunnel, then you can see it.
16 Q. Are you quite sure of that?
17 A. I think so, yes.
18 Q. Did you check this with a photograph, by measurement, or
19 by personal experience?
20 A. By personal experience. We did not check it by
22 Q. I have two more questions only. You said that "A
23 representative of the prosecution, Madam McHenry, was
24 with us on the Thursday", when she gave you certain
25 instructions. Was Mrs McHenry with you the second day?
1 A. No, there was nobody. We just were the two of us,
2 Mr Post and --
3 Q. Did anyone give you opposite instructions to those you
4 received from the prosecutor on the second day?
5 A. No, we were brought there by an interpreter, and he said
6 what we wanted to do, and then he left the camp, and we
7 were just on our own.
8 Q. Did you personally change anything of significance
9 following instructions from the prosecution?
10 A. No, we did not.
11 Q. If the surface of the design -- according to the design
12 documents is 84,000 square metres, and the building that
13 the prosecution draw your attention to constitutes only
14 3 to 4 per cent of the total area of the facility?
15 A. We did not take measurements upside the hills and this
17 Q. My question is, if the design documentation gives us a
18 surface of 84,500 square metres, is it true to say that
19 the buildings, including the administration building,
20 the reception and the other buildings to which the
21 prosecution drew your attention to, constitute only 3 to
22 4 per cent of the total surface of the facility?
23 A. No, no, all the facilities we saw are on this model.
24 Q. But what share of the total area do they represent?
25 A. The measurements we took on the base, when we were
1 there, are marked on the plan of the camp, and those are
2 the measurements we took and from which we put out all
3 our measurements for the buildings.
4 Q. In answer to yesterday's question of my learned
5 colleague, you said that, if the surface was 55,000
6 square metres, it is about 6 per cent. If, according to
7 the design documents, it is 84,500, is it right to say
8 that the percentage of the surface of those buildings is
9 3 to 4 per cent?
10 A. I accept it.
11 Q. Thank you. I have no further questions. Thank you,
12 your Honour.
13 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: I think this concludes the
14 cross-examination of this witness.
15 MS McMURREY: Your Honour, we have recross.
16 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: The prosecution, have you tendered the
18 MR OSTBERG: Your Honour, I would now like to tender the
19 evidences, and I think I will do it in the presence of
20 the witness, if your Honours have any questions.
21 As your Honours have seen through the photos, the
22 video tape, the sketches, you can yourself judge whether
23 this is an acceptable model of the place or not. I have
24 been listening to the questioning. I find it hard to
25 see why it would be improper for the witness to follow
1 instructions of the prosecution. We have ordered this
2 model made, and of course we have highlighted the most
3 interesting buildings which have been made models of,
4 and all the key things are on the model.
5 So I now want also to say this model has a twofold
6 purpose, of course: to visualise to your Honours what
7 the compound looked like, but chiefly to serve as a time
8 saving tool when we are bringing our witnesses, and make
9 it easier for them to point out where they have been
10 detained during their stay in Celebici.
11 So now I would like to enter the photo book as
12 Exhibit number 1, with the translation introductory
13 notes as 1A, and the translation measurement -- the
14 translation of the measurements as 2B, and I would like
15 to enter the model as Exhibit number 2, and, by the way,
16 I want to enter the blown-up houses. I have asked the
17 witness, he cannot authenticate them, but I can just
18 tell these are annexes ordered by the prosecution office
19 to make it easier even to look into this building. They
20 are an enlarged model of the ground plan, just as a
21 blown-up photo.
22 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Mr Ostberg, who is tendering those
24 MR OSTBERG: I would like to tender them just as an extra to
25 the model.
1 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: You are the prosecutor.
2 MR OSTBERG: If it is objected to, I withdraw this
3 suggestion immediately. Then we can come back to the
4 question and enter it by the person who fabricated it.
5 I withdraw the question of entering the bigger models.
6 As Exhibit number 3 I want to enter the video on
7 Celebici, which we saw during the examination of the
8 witness. Thank you, your Honour.
9 MS McMURREY: Your Honour, are we responding in a certain
10 order? At this point, we would like --
11 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: I have made it very clear that
12 whichever way you do it, I hear counsel for the first
13 accused, if she has anything to say.
14 MR BRACKOVIC (in interpretation): I am sorry, there is no
15 translation. I cannot hear the interpretation.
16 MR TAPUSKOVIC (in interpretation): May I address your
18 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: No. May I hear Mrs Residovic first on
19 the position of the prosecutor in tendering the
20 exhibits? If you have nothing to say, you pass on to
21 the second counsel.
22 MS RESIDOVIC (in interpretation): I have no comment.
23 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: The second, Mr Tapuskovic, if you have
24 anything to say?
25 MR TAPUSKOVIC (in interpretation): Thank you, your Honour,
1 for allowing me to address you while the witness is
2 still here. If I have understood well, I may also
3 cross-examine the witness in the order indicated by you.
4 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: No, I do not think you have that
5 right. You have already cross-examined him. You did
6 that yesterday.
7 MR TAPUSKOVIC (in interpretation): Really we find ourselves
8 in a totally vague situation.
9 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: You cross-examined him yesterday, did
11 MR TAPUSKOVIC (in interpretation): Yes.
12 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: You have done so.
13 MR TAPUSKOVIC (in interpretation): I have just one
14 question, one question.
15 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: No, there is a limit to what rights you
16 can exercise. You cannot go indefinitely. You have
17 cross-examined him.
18 MR TAPUSKOVIC (in interpretation): A limit in my defence?
19 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: He has been re-examined, and you do not
20 have to cross-examine again.
21 MR TAPUSKOVIC (in interpretation): But, your Honour, the
22 defence counsel of other defendants completed their
23 cross-examination yesterday too, and we all left so that
24 we would have the opportunity to ask some more questions
25 today. I have only one question.
1 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Please, Mr Tapuskovic, you have
2 cross-examined yesterday, you have exercised your right
3 to cross-examine, and I think that is all. If he was
4 your own witness, you would have re-examined. That is
5 the only circumstance in which you can ask questions
6 again. But he is not your witness, so you cannot
8 MR TAPUSKOVIC (in interpretation): Thank you. It is not a
9 very important question. I had intended to be helpful,
10 but I will respect your ruling.
11 MR MORAN: May it please the court, your Honour, we object
12 to defence Exhibits 1 and 2 in that they do not fully,
13 fairly and accurately depict what they purport to
14 depict; that is, the camp. Specifically the plan of the
15 camp which is, I believe, included in page 3 of
16 Prosecution Exhibit 1 differs in at least one
17 substantial area between the model itself and Officer
18 Beelen testified yesterday that there were several -- at
19 least a couple of areas on the model which did not
20 reflect what was on the ground.
21 Therefore, your Honour, Prosecution Exhibit 2 does
22 not fully, fairly and accurately depict the camp, and
23 either Prosecution Exhibit 1 or Prosecution Exhibit 2
24 shows a proper layout. They cannot both do it, your
1 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Yes, number 4?
2 MS McMURREY: Yes, your Honours, if I may respond, we of
3 course agree with Mr Ostberg to any model that will
4 assist this court and the witnesses in the expediencies
5 in these procedures, but what has happened here is that
6 this model is not accurate, and only portrays the
7 prosecution's point of view. If we can refer to the
8 certain elevations that are very important to the
9 defence's case that Mr Beelen and I have, and we have
10 discussed that there are differences in here, and
11 between now and Monday, if we can reflect it accurately
12 so that we will be able to use it with our witnesses
13 also, to show the inaccuracies in some of the witness
14 statements, then of course we would have no objection to
16 There are just a very few number of changes on the
17 model that would need to be made to reflect it
18 accurately, and, if we could work together and come to
19 some agreement to adjust the certain elevations in this
20 model between now and Monday, I believe that we would
21 all be in agreement with the use of the model. It is as
22 much an asset to our defence as it is to the
23 prosecution's case, and so, if we can work together on
24 that, then, by Monday -- we would certainly be able to
25 work together and come to a common ground on this model,
1 because it certainly is useful for both sides.
2 We have no objection to the video tape being
3 admitted into evidence. As far as the photographs, we
4 have only objections to the omission of the other
5 photographs of the camp that should have been included
6 if this to be an impartial investigation, and we will
7 have no objections to the model if we can make the
8 appropriate changes on it to reflect it accurately.
9 Also, I would like to address to the court on the
10 issue of cross-examination, if I might just make one
12 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Frankly, I do not like counsel behaving
13 most irregularly. Counsel should behave in a more
14 courteous manner. If you get up to make comments on a
15 particular issue, keep your comments to that issue until
16 any other situation arises when you can add other
17 things, and I do not like interrupting unduly. So you
18 have made your comments on tendering of the exhibits,
19 and I think that is all I listened to you for.
20 MS McMURREY: My additional comment --
21 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Please, I think that is all the
22 comments you are making about the tendering of the
23 exhibits, and that was what the Trial Chamber called you
24 upon to do.
25 MS McMURREY: We object to the admissibility of, of course,
1 the blown-up models, because there has been no
2 authentication whatsoever on those.
3 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: That has been withdrawn.
4 MS McMURREY: We object to the model itself unless we can
5 make the appropriate modifications, and we agree with
6 the video tape and the photographs, your Honour, thank
8 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Thank you very much. We have heard the
9 objections, and admissions of counsel. The prosecution
10 is not pretending that someone else actually produced
11 the model. It is their own model, and they are
12 tendering it in evidence as their own model. If you
13 have any other reasons during the evidence to contradict
14 it, you are free to do so, but definitely it is
15 admissible in evidence, and I have so admitted it.
16 I think this is the conclusion of the evidence of
17 this witness?
18 MR OSTBERG: Yes, I am ready to dismiss the witness.
19 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: You can now stand down.
20 A. Thank you, your Honour.
21 (The witness withdrew)
22 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Any other witness?
23 MR OSTBERG: Yes, your Honour. I will now change places
24 with Mr Giuliano Turone.
25 MR TURONE: Your Honour, the prosecution calls now Mr Mirko
1 Babic as a witness.
2 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: I think it will be proper to remove
3 those buildings, since they are no longer a part of the
5 MIRKO BABIC (sworn)
6 Examination-in-chief by MR TURONE
7 MR TURONE: May I proceed?
8 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Yes, you may.
9 MR TURONE: Thank you. Sir, I am sorry, there is the ELMO
10 exactly in between me and the witness.
11 Sir, would you please state your full name?
12 A. Yes, I can. My name is Mirko Babic.
13 Q. And what is your date of birth, please?
14 A. 21st May 1933.
15 Q. Can you say what is your ethnic group?
16 A. Serbian.
17 Q. And where were you born?
18 A. In the village of Bijelovcina, near Konjic, some 15
19 kilometres away from Konjic.
20 Q. Mr Babic, what education did you receive? I mean, which
21 kind of schools did you attend?
22 A. A forester.
23 Q. You mean you attended a particular school for forest
25 A. Yes, I did.
1 Q. And how many years was that?
2 A. Two years.
3 Q. You mean two years after elementary school?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Thank you. Mr Babic, where did you live at the
6 beginning of May 1992?
7 A. In the village of Bijelovcina, which is my village.
8 Q. So, in May 1992 you lived in Bijelovcina, and worked
9 there as a forest guard?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Mr Babic, was Bijelovcina a village with Serbian
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. And you said this belongs to the municipality of Konjic
15 and the distance is about 15 kilometres from Konjic?
16 MS McMURREY: Your Honour, I object to the leading nature of
17 the questions. He is on direct examination.
18 MR TURONE: I am sorry, your Honour, the witness already
19 said that. I was just summarising what he just said a
20 while ago.
21 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Try and leave him to make his
22 summaries. Leave the witness to make his summaries.
23 MR TURONE: Okay.
24 Can you say approximately how many Serbian houses,
25 how many families, how many inhabitants did live in
1 Bijelovcina at that time?
2 A. In my village, Bijelovcina, where I lived, there were 48
3 Serbian homes, 5 Croatian and 4 Muslim homes.
4 Q. Was there a time when Bijelovcina was affected by the
5 armed conflict in 1992, I mean by concrete military
6 operations in 1992?
7 A. On 21st May 1992, around 2100 hours, my village of
8 Bijelovcina was attacked by the Muslims.
9 Q. Mr Babic, I will ask you in a very short while to tell
10 us in detail what happened that day, and the following
11 days, of course, but, before that, could you please say
12 to the court whether you were arrested in that occasion,
13 and detained in a military camp for a fairly long time,
14 or not?
15 MS McMURREY: Your Honour, I am going to object again to the
16 leading question. He is putting the words in the
17 witness' mouth.
18 MR TURONE: Should I change my question, your Honour?
19 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Yes, ask your question more properly.
20 MR TURONE: Mr Babic, would you say whether you were
21 arrested on that occasion?
22 A. Yes, I was, and I say to tell the story.
23 Q. Can you please, then, tell your story from the moment at
24 which the armed conflict started in Bijelovcina?
25 A. Yes, I can.
1 Q. So, please.
2 A. On 21st May 1992, around 2100 hours, Muslims attacked my
3 village of Bijelovcina. There was shooting from all
4 directions, and myself and Boro Ivkovic, my neighbour,
5 were sitting in front of my house. We saw that
6 something was wrong. I went to my bedroom. I took my
7 revolver, for which I had proper papers, and, since
8 I was a forest guard, I had an officially issued
10 Then I took the revolver and we started running
11 for the woods, and then, when we reached it, I put it
12 under a rock, and then in the woods, about 40 metres in,
13 we stopped. There was still shooting going on all over
14 the place.
15 Then we stayed in that wood, and never moved from
16 there. Within half an hour, we heard that there was
17 some noise, there was slamming of doors and there were
18 windows breaking, down in the house, and then --
19 Q. Could you please, Mr Babic, slow down a little in your
20 account, please, for interpretation to be done?
21 A. And in Boro's house after that the noise stopped, it
22 just stopped. So we waited in that wood, and there was
23 gun fire all around for a while, and we spent the night
24 there. But we talked about what to do next. We did not
25 know what was going on. We could see the house of Boro
1 and my house was across the ridge, and we could not see
2 it. So we spent the night there on 22nd May 1992.
3 The dawn came, and we went to see, over the ridge,
4 towards my house, and, when we got there, we saw some
5 people in green uniforms with weapons, and they were
6 leading a few people, and then we started running, and
7 then we went to Boro's house and stopped about 50 metres
8 away from --
9 MR TURONE: Mr Babic, please slow down in your account.
10 MS McMURREY: We object to the narrative form of the
11 question. It should be in question answer form.
12 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Not necessarily, please. Let him give
13 an account of what happened to him. Yes, you can carry
15 MR TURONE: Yes, you can go ahead, Mr Babic.
16 A. Again, there was gun fire, but not in the same intervals
17 as on 21st May. We stopped in that wood, and those who
18 were leading the people arrived and they saw us, and
19 then they commanded us to raise our hands, and then they
20 told us to take off our coats and I had a hat on my
21 head, and then I threw away the coat and the hat. Bora
22 did not have a hat, but he had a coat, and he took off
23 the coat and put it down, and again they told us to
24 raise our hands, and then they said -- they cursed us
25 and -- they started --
1 Q. Please, Mr Babic, slow down in your account.
2 A. All right.
3 So the first blow was in my mouth, and then they
4 started to beat us on the chest, back. We received a
5 lot of blows. Then they told us to follow them up the
6 hill, which was called Lovno. Then we came up to the
7 top of that hill, and then they wanted to see if there
8 was something there. There was nothing there.
9 Then there was a road down to the left side
10 leading towards my house, and we went down the hill to
11 the road. I saw, again, young men in green camouflage
12 uniforms. There was a lot of them. We went and I was
13 going ahead, and Boro Ivkovic was behind me. I remember
14 there was a Mirsad Pirkic, and I also remember some Sejo
15 Didik. They were walking behind us, and there were some
16 others walking behind. About several hundred metres
17 towards my house, about halfway, Captain Mirsad told me
18 to stop, and I stopped. He took out some kind of a
19 notebook from his pocket, and he said, "Come over here",
20 so I went over to him. He tells me "Here is your
21 brother. There is the picture". And I tell Mirsad,
22 "No, it is not my brother". Yes. "Do you know who it
23 is?" "That is Duro Kuljanin", and Duro Kuljanin was the
24 President of the municipality, and so there was his
25 membership card. I do not know where they found it,
1 I do not know where.
2 Q. Mr Babic, may I interrupt you for a moment, just to have
3 you answer to some explaining question? You said you
4 were found by soldiers in the wood. Can you say how
5 many were these soldiers?
6 A. I cannot say anything, no.
7 Q. Approximately, of course?
8 A. But I can say there were a number of them, but I cannot
9 say. I do not know.
10 Q. Which kind of uniforms did they wear?
11 A. Green camouflage.
12 Q. Do you remember if any of them had some insignia?
13 A. I saw that there was a TO on the arm. That was what was
14 written there. I could not notice anything else. On
15 the left arm.
16 Q. Do you know who was, or who were, the commander or
17 commanders of these men?
18 A. On the way I found out that Mirsad Pirkic was called
19 captain, so he was the main one who was leading the
20 other men.
21 Q. And can you say approximately at what time did this
22 soldier find you and stop you in the woods? Was that
23 night still, or already daylight?
24 A. On 22nd May, around 7.00 in the morning.
25 Q. All right, Mr Babic, can you go ahead in your account
1 after this time onward, what happened to you then?
2 A. Then, when they showed me that book, belonging to
3 Kuljanin, Mr Pirkic ordered me to eat that booklet, and
4 I started eating it, and I ate one piece of it. I
5 wanted to throw up, but I saw Sejo Didik from the Konjic
6 municipality, and he kicked me in the back and so then I
7 hid the rest of the book and then they did not see it,
8 or something, and then we went to my house.
9 We came to my house. The first room is where my
10 brother is, and then on the right-hand side is my
11 bedroom, and this is where I would take rest. I was not
12 married. I was a bachelor.
13 When I looked in my brother's room, I saw there
14 were some women there, and I recognised them and I saw
15 Novo Ivkovic and Slobodan Babic, my neighbours, and also
16 my relative. They were bloody.
17 Then they took me to my room, and I came there. I
18 saw on the table there was -- they were brewing some
19 coffee. There were about five or six people there, and
20 they were all in green camouflage uniforms and there
21 were also two women there.
22 Then, when we entered the room, Mirsad Pirkic
23 ordered that Boro Ivkovic, my neighbour, hit me, and
24 I had to hit him. So we started hitting each other on
25 the head. If I did not hit him hard enough, then they
1 would hit me, and the other way round, so that Boro and
2 I beat each other quite a bit and they laughed.
3 Then somebody comes at the door. I think it is a
4 soldier of theirs, and he is bringing in a stake. Not
5 too thick, and they hit us twice over our backs with
6 it. They took Boro out and they left me in the room.
7 Then they put me down on the floor, and Pirkic had
8 a hand grenade. I remember the top was like an egg, and
9 I do not know who else attacked me, Sejo, they were
10 beating me on my soles of my feet. They were laughing.
11 He said, "You are resisting", and then they stopped.
12 I saw around my table there were a lot of them
13 surrounding me, and all of a sudden this mug came for me
14 to drink something. When I saw what it was, it was
15 urine, and it was bitter and they brought this coffee
16 pot, and they poured over me, and I --
17 Q. Mr Babic, please, Mr Babic, speak slowly. Could you say
18 again who gave you this urine?
19 A. As I noticed, I saw one man in camouflage uniform, and
20 on his hand was "U". I think it was Zeljko Mlikota from
21 the Konjic municipality, and Mia Mladen. They gave me
22 that urine to drink.
23 Q. Okay, go ahead, please, but very slowly, please.
24 A. After the urine that I drank, those two women, I do not
25 remember them very well, I think that maybe I remember
1 one. I think that maybe it was Alagic, I do not know if
2 that was Safija or Nora.
3 JUDGE JAN: Just a moment, please. We are more concerned
4 with the charges in the Celebici camp. The evidence
5 which is being related, does it relate to Celebici camp,
6 happening in the Celebici camp?
7 MR TURONE: Your Honour, this is --
8 A. That will come, that will come, once I make it there.
9 MR TURONE: It is the trip on the way, I would say. So it
10 is relevant, because of something which happened in
11 between. So it is relevant to what --
12 JUDGE JAN: To what charge does it relate, all this
14 A. I will go on.
15 JUDGE JAN: To what charge does it relate, all this
17 MR TURONE: It will be clear that it will be related at
18 least to one of the deaths having occurred inside the
19 camp later on, but it will be clear later on, your
20 Honour. This is not going to be a very long account of
21 something happening outside the camp. May I proceed?
22 Yes, Mr Babic, you can proceed.
23 A. So those two women were in green camouflage uniforms.
24 They continued to beat me over the head. One of them
25 was holding a fork in front of my eyes, and threatened
1 to gouge them, and then they had a bayonet, and then
2 they were breaking glass and they were bringing sharps
3 in front of me and they were cursing me and saying,
4 "Look how bloody you are". Then they beat me for a
5 while and then they stopped.
6 Then two people were brought their boots for me to
7 lick them, and I had to lick, and there was earth on
8 them, and then that lasted not very long. In the end,
9 Mirsad Pirkic, the captain, asked me where my revolver
10 was. I told him that I left it in the woods under a
11 rock above from Boro's house, and it was properly issued
12 to me in 1967 by the MUP in Konjic, and I had it as a
13 forest guard, and Pirkic went with me where I left the
14 revolver, and the permit.
15 When I came to that place, I showed the revolver.
16 Mirsad took the revolver and the permit. He tore up the
17 permit, and kept the revolver. Then we went back to my
18 room. They were all still in the room, and Mirsad says,
19 "All right, let us move", and everybody left, except
20 for me and Mirsad. Then I left later with him, and Novo
21 Ivkovic, Babic Slobo and Boro Ivkovic, who was with me,
22 and with whom I exchanged --
23 Q. I beg your pardon, Mr Babic, I beg your pardon, can you
24 say did you in any way take part in the defence of the
25 village of Bijelovcina?
1 A. No. I was 60 years old. I was not interested in
2 defending. I was going to do my own job.
3 Q. So at what time did you leave your house in that day,
5 A. Somewhere around 11.00.
6 Q. And what happened to you after that? Were you taken to
7 any specific place?
8 A. That is what I want to say.
9 Q. Please.
10 A. The people in my room, Bora, Bosa, Ivkovic Anica and
11 Ivkovic Danica, we all came out and we saw three green
12 boxes, and they ordered me to carry one of them, and the
13 other one Noro -- Boro Ivkovic carried the other and
14 Slavko took my box. I do not know if somebody told him
15 that he did not -- that he did not have to, but he took
17 Then we went to the house of Slavko Tomic in
18 Bijelovcina, the same street, and that is where we
19 stopped. Pirkic ordered that we should all stop and
20 turn facing east, and to close our eyes. One woman
21 started crying, because for her it meant execution. At
22 that point, somebody called from the field, called him,
23 and that was stopped.
24 Then we came, and we stopped at the next house,
25 and there were bringing some brandy from that house, and
1 we sat there. After that, we moved on. Sejo Didik
2 separated me out and said, "Now we are going towards
3 Uras Djukic's house". He started kicking me in the
4 house and beating me all over. I started waling and
5 saying, "Do not", but nothing helped. Then we came to
6 Djukic's house. There was some wood in front of that
7 house, and he ordered me to move this wood from one
8 place to another. Whenever I would bend down, he would
9 kick me with his soldier's boot. He beat me really
10 terribly. I will never forget that.
11 Q. Excuse me, Mr Babic, was there any other prisoner at
12 that time with you?
13 A. At that time, no, I was the only one. All the rest of
14 them were all at Boco Tomic's house at that time, and
15 then he took our bayonet, and pointed at my stomach and
16 mistreated me there, and Captain Mitke -- there were
17 five or six of them, plus the two women, and then we
18 moved on, and then they said, "You are going to be the
19 guide today". So I took them to the -- to the village
20 of Vinjiste by the way that was easier, but they did not
21 want that. They wanted the other way. They were on
22 the -- on the right-hand side there were rocks, and then
23 they were going down. I said, "Do not go down there,
24 because there are rocks there", and then they cursed me
25 again, and then they said, "Where are you leading us, we
1 will all die here". Then we stopped.
2 So then there were two hills, and there was a
3 river in between. To the right, there is a wood, and on
4 the left-hand side, there is nothing, no vegetation
5 there. When we came down by the rocks from near a wood,
6 all of a sudden there was gun fire coming. Fortunately,
7 they were not coming in our direction.
8 Then they commanded me, Mitke did, to take the
9 path, and twenty, thirty metres later, they ordered me
10 to stop and lie down. And then he called the rest, and
11 about 500 metres later we came to a clearing, and then
12 we sat down. At that moment, I saw two women. There
13 was something --
14 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Mr Turone, the Trial Chamber will rise
15 for about fifteen minutes.
16 MR TURONE: I am sorry, Mr Babic, we are going to have an
17 interruption for fifteen minutes, and we will start
18 again after fifteen minutes.
19 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: 11.30.
20 (11.15 am)
21 (A short break)
22 (11.35 am)
23 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Let the witness come in. Kindly remind
24 him he is still on oath.
25 THE REGISTRAR: May I remind you that you are still under
2 A. Yes. I am continuing my travel. I said that we reached
3 the woods. We sat down, and then those two women took
4 Slobo Babic, and they put some things on him to carry,
5 and then we all sat down. When we sat down, they would
6 call me, and they hit me on the head. They did the same
7 to Slobo.
8 A little way away, they took out a rope. I do not
9 know what they were doing.
10 MR TURONE: Excuse me, Mr Babic, excuse me interrupting you,
11 is this Babic the same Babic you were talking about
12 earlier, or another Babic?
13 A. Yes, the same Babic, Slobodan Babic. Are you thinking
14 of the trip? I did not see Slobodan Babic before we
15 reached the woods.
16 Q. Please, Mr Babic, speak very slow to us. Can you say to
17 us who is this Slobodan Babic?
18 A. Slobodan Babic is my relative. We live next door, we
19 lived as neighbours. My father and his grandfather were
20 brothers, so that we were cousins.
21 Q. So do you mean this Slobodan Babic joined you at a
22 certain moment after leaving your house?
23 A. Yes. Shall I continue?
24 Q. Yes, you can continue. Can you tell us at this very
25 moment, were there any other prisoners with you, or only
1 you and Slobodan Babic?
2 A. There was just me and Slobodan Babic.
3 Q. And who were the other people surrounding you?
4 A. With us, with us people who were chasing us, who were
5 forcing us to go along the road, Sejo Didik, those two
6 women, and some others.
7 Shall I continue?
8 Q. Yes, you can.
9 A. Then we moved on, and Sejo Didik told me, he called me a
10 "cetnik", he called me "cetnik" the second time, I kept
11 quiet, the second time I said, "I am not a "cetnik".
12 Then he said if you do not answer my call, I will kill
13 you. Then we went on. I wanted to lead them along the
14 road, but they chose another path through the woods, and
15 Sejo called me "cetnik" a couple of times, and I had to
16 answer, and they laughed. We went through the woods,
17 and we reached a river called Uguscica and there we
18 stopped. I asked whether I could drink, take a drink of
19 water and they would not let me. Then we had to go
20 along the right side to reach the village of Vinjiste.
21 I went in front, and every twenty or thirty steps, they
22 would say "Stop". I stopped, and we went on until we
23 reached the village of Vinjiste and the house of
24 Nikola. Then they forced me to go inside, to knock on
25 the door to see who was inside. I knocked and Nikola
1 Zuza, his wife and son-in-law, Rajko Miluntinovic, Milan
2 Savic --
3 Q. Speak slower, Mr Babic, please, speak slower to us.
4 A. -- came out of the house. They came out of the house,
5 and in front of Nikola's house, there was some water.
6 There was a tap, and I asked to drink, and they let me.
7 So I had a drink. Slobodan also had a drink of water.
8 We were allowed to drink, and then we went on some
9 thirty metres from Nikola's house. Then he took me
10 aside, and Slobo Babic to another side.
11 Q. Who took you aside, Mr Babic, who took you aside?
12 A. The Captain Pirkic, Mirsad Pirkic, and they were about
13 30 metres away from us, and they were consulting, they
14 were pointing in various directions. I did not know
15 what. Then Captain Pirkic came up to me and sat down,
16 and he said, "My dear forest guard, you have been good,
17 you were our guide, and you served us well. For me, you
18 are a legend, but we are leaving you here". He
19 threatened with executions, hanging or tearing me up,
20 but, "The best solution for you is death. One of us
21 will put a bomb in your mouth, and then this man will
22 pull out the wire, open your mouth and that is the
23 easiest death for you".
24 I begged the captain, I said, "My dear captain, do
25 not kill me", I pleaded with him. He said he could not
1 do anything. He went back to his group. He talked to
2 them and again sat next to me. He said to me, "When we
3 head for that village of Homolje, you will go in front
4 of me. I cannot protect you. I doubt you will live.
5 They will kill you."
6 When we moved, I was on the right, and Slobo was
7 on the left-hand side. My legs were swollen from the
8 beatings. I could feel that my ribs were broken, and I
9 could hardly move.
10 I was thinking of asking them to shoot me, but I
11 did not. Then we walked for about one hour, and we
12 reached the village of Homolje. It is a Muslim
13 village. There we sat down. Me and Slobodan Babic, we
14 lent against a wall.
15 Q. Excuse me, Mr Babic, at what time approximately did you
16 arrive at Homolje?
17 A. It may have been perhaps an hour before dusk, before
19 Q. Can you say approximately which was the distance you
20 covered between Bijelovcina and Homolje?
21 A. I think about ten -- eight to ten kilometres. I cannot
22 tell you exactly. Shall I continue?
23 Q. When you arrived at Homolje, you were together with
24 Slobodan alone, or had other prisoners joined you in the
1 A. There was no one else, just Slobodan Babic and me, no
2 one else.
3 Q. In what condition was Slobodan Babic?
4 A. He was covered in blood, like me, and we just kept
5 quiet. There was nothing we could do. There were five
6 or six metres between us, and we sat there for about one
7 hour, and then night fell. It was raining. A lorry
8 came up and we all climbed into it. Some went into the
9 cabin. We were sitting in the back, and Captain Mirsad
10 Pirkic was next to us, and he was singing some songs,
11 some silly songs.
12 This did not last long, and so we reached the
13 sports hall of Musala in Konjic. Me and Slobodan were
14 put in room number 10, and in that room I found my
15 neighbours, and we spent the night there.
16 About midnight, Slobodan Babic was called out, and
17 they kept him outside for a long time. Then he came
18 back, and then they called me out. I went out into the
19 corridor, and I saw the investigators there. One of
20 them I could recognise, and he recognised me, Pajic
21 Mirsad from Konjic municipality. They asked me what had
22 happened to me. I did not dare tell them what had
23 happened, because I was covered in blood. I just said
24 that I had fell, and hurt myself. I was ordered to sit
25 down in the corridor. Then they asked me some stupid
1 questions, did I vote for SDS? I said, "Yes". They
2 were not very dangerous, and again I went back to room
3 10, and Slobodan and I spent the night there.
4 Then it dawned. That was 23rd May 1992. Then,
5 when night fell, they called out me and Slobodan. There
6 was a lorry. We entered it, and we went about one
7 kilometre from Musala to a locality called Radava, it
8 was a hotel. I do not know exactly whether it was
9 Radava or Neretva. We climbed down from the lorry,
10 entered this hotel, and immediately at the door they
11 started beating us and cursing our mother.
12 One woman, this is something I have to say, she
13 was a great help to us. She knew me well, and she said,
14 "You will not hit the forest guard". It seems that she
15 was working in that hotel. She must have been a cook or
16 something. She brought us some boiled eggs, and we
17 asked her to bring us some water, because we were very
18 thirsty. She brought us some water, because we had lost
19 a lot of blood, and I am very grateful to her.
20 We sat there for about half an hour, and then we
21 were ordered to move again. I had lost my senses. I
22 did not know where I was going, or what I was doing.
23 I was simply out of my mind.
24 We went down the steps. The lorry was waiting. I
25 climbed up. I do not know what happened to Slobodan.
1 Whether he climbed up or not, whether there was anyone
2 there or not, I really do not know. The lorry started
3 moving, and I reached Celebici on May 23rd, and I was
4 put in building 22.
5 When I entered, I saw lots of prisoners there. It
6 was so densely populated that we could hardly stand.
7 There was Spaso Vukalo, there were some other
8 neighbours. I was badly hurt, and I saw a pump, a
9 machine, I do not know what kind of machine --
10 Q. May I interrupt you for a moment, Mr Babic? When you
11 reached Celebici on a truck --
12 A. At night, on 23rd.
13 Q. At night, at about what time, do you remember
15 A. The evening.
16 Q. Were there any other prisoners in that lorry, in that
17 truck that led you to Celebici?
18 A. I cannot remember anything. I was lost. I remember
19 I was there, and I do not know whether there were any
20 other people in that truck. I simply do not know. I
21 cannot say, because I was really very sick, and I spent
22 the night there.
23 As far as I can remember, about two days later, I
24 saw Pedrac Babic, the son of Slobodan Babic, in this
25 same building 22, and I saw Slobodan Babic lying down in
1 this building 22. He could not see anything. He could
2 not hear. I thought he was dying. I think he was there
3 for about eight days. His son disappeared, Spaso,
4 Drago. But many of us were left. Slobodan was moved
5 away, and I do not know anything, but I heard later that
6 he died on March 3rd.
7 Q. Could you describe in more detail the physical
8 conditions of Slobodan Babic when you saw him in number
9 22 in Celebici?
10 A. He was in a very grave condition. His lips were
11 injured. Something was broken in his mouth. A bottle
12 of water appeared from somewhere, and those who were
13 next to him, they poured drop by drop of water into his
14 mouth, but it could not go down, because his throat,
15 everything was hurt. He was in a very bad condition,
16 all broken up. I really do not know. (redacted)
17 and Dr Petko Grubac will be able to tell you more,
18 because he died there, and they were there when he
20 Q. Can you explain to the court who are Dr Grubac and
22 A. You mean of nationality, what nationality they are?
23 (redacted) is from Bradina and Dr Petko is from
24 somewhere in Montenegro. He worked in a health centre,
25 and I knew them very well.
1 Q. You mean they can say something in detail about the
2 conditions of Slobodan Babic for which reason?
3 A. Slobodan Babic died on 3rd March in the presence of
4 (redacted) and Grubac.
5 Q. Thank you. Can you describe in detail this building
6 number 22 you were in?
7 A. I can hardly describe it. I just know that it was
8 rectangular in shape. I really cannot describe it. I
9 know there were a lot of people inside. There was not
10 room to sit down.
11 Q. Can you say approximately how many people were there
12 inside there?
13 A. No, I could not say. I do not know.
14 Q. Can you say how were the conditions of life in building
15 number 22?
16 A. The conditions were terrible. There was very little
17 water, and very little food. The hygiene was very
18 poor. I do not know.
19 Q. What about the toilet facilities?
20 A. I saw some people going out. There was a toilet
21 outside. I saw that. Maybe for twenty days, I did not
22 go to the toilet at all, and I am surprised. I do not
23 know how come, from 21st May, until 23rd May, I spent
24 some twenty days there in building 22. I never went
25 out. I do not know how that was possible, but there you
2 Q. Mr Babic, if you should see a map or a model of the camp
3 of Celebici, could you recognise it and indicate 22 in
4 that, or not?
5 A. I could not, no, nothing. I had never been in that camp
6 before. I came there at night. I was ill, and I really
7 could not help you with any maps.
8 Q. Can you say approximately how long did Slobodan Babic
9 remain in building number 22?
10 A. It seems to me about eight days.
11 Q. How do you know about what happened to him later?
12 A. When I left the camp, I met some people, (redacted),
13 and he told me.
14 Q. You told us that you stayed in number 22 for a number of
15 days. How many days, do you say?
16 A. Yes, I think about twenty days.
17 Q. And after that, what happened to you?
18 A. Shall I continue? I was there for some twenty days.
19 Nobody hurt me. I was moved to number 6. When I got to
20 number 6, I saw four rows of people, one row in a circle
21 and two rows across the middle. There were about 250
22 prisoners. Hazim Delic put me in the third row, six
23 from the door, and that is -- that was my place. I do
24 not know, I think it must have been about the 15th
25 June. They said some journalists would be coming, and
1 people came. They were black. Delic was there and some
2 others talking to them. I do not know what they were
3 talking about, and the journalists left, and after the
4 journalists, Esad Landzo came. He took Branko Gotovac,
5 took him out. What he did to him, who knows? When
6 Branko Gotovac came back, he fell. He could not
7 breathe. Fortunately, there were two nurses, medical
8 technicians, who pulled his tongue out of his mouth,
9 Branko, so he started breathing again. Branko was very
10 seriously ill. They moved him to some sort of
11 dispensary, and Branko was there.
12 Then one day Delic Hazim came and said to his son,
13 Danilo Branko, his son, "Do you know your father has
14 died?", and he said, "Let him". But Branko did not die,
15 he came back, he recovered.
16 Q. Can you give us a description of this hangar number 6?
17 A. Maybe a little. I think it was again rectangular in
18 shape. I know it had an iron roof structure, and that
19 is all I know about it.
20 Q. What about the size of this building number 6? Do you
21 know approximately how many people could fit there?
22 A. I do not know. It was quite wide. Maybe three times as
23 many people could fit.
24 Q. What about again conditions of life, food, toilet
25 facilities in this place?
1 A. There were no conditions. It was very bad. We sat on
2 the concrete floor. It was dirty. The hygiene was
3 terrible. There was a bucket behind the door for toilet
4 purposes. There were five spoons for 250 of us. Five
5 would go and eat. Sometimes there was something cooked,
6 and this meal took about two hours. Somebody would take
7 a little more. Then the next person had nothing. There
8 was very little bread. We were all hungry.
9 In July, we had nothing to eat for 56 hours. I
10 remember that.
11 Q. Can you mention the names of some other prisoners who
12 were with you in building number 6?
13 A. Yes, I can remember Vule Mrkajic, Risto Vukala, and then
14 some of my neighbours too.
15 Q. Mr Babic, did you personally suffer physical
16 maltreatment during your stay at Celebici?
17 A. I can tell you that I personally was not hurt, but, when
18 I came from 22 to 6, after about three days in the
19 evening they called me out. I do not know who it was.
20 It was dark, and some hit me with iron spades about five
21 or six times, and then they sent me back to my place.
22 That was once, and I can also remember somewhere after
23 20th July in 1992, one morning, Hazim Delic, he came and
24 he kicked me with his boot, and he passed by me.
25 Another day, again about 9.00, he came and again
1 he kicked me with his boot. A third day, again, about
2 10.00, he kicked me a third time, and then he left. He
3 walked past the rows, he went out. Then about an hour
4 later, he called my name, "Come out". I went out. I
5 saw Esad Landzo, and a third man, whom I did not know.
6 They took me some fifteen metres from the door. Landzo
7 Esad put a mask over my eyes, and they started beating
9 Q. Please speak very slowly, Mr Babic.
10 A. They beat me. I was virtually unconscious. Three of
11 them were beating me. When they took the mask off, I
12 saw Delic, Esad Landzo and this third man.
13 I know Hazim Delic, because he worked with me in
14 my enterprise. He was a good man. His father was Ibro,
15 I know him too, he was a good man too, and I know Hazim
16 Delic, because he worked with me in the same company. I
17 begged Hazim, "Do not do this". I begged him two or
18 three times. He cursed my mother, and he would not let
19 the other two to beat me. But Esad Landzo kept on
20 beating me all the time, and then he told me "hurry up"
21 to reach the door.
22 There was a plank holding the gate, and, when I
23 reached the gate, Esad Landzo opened the door, took the
24 plank and hit me with it, and I fell in front of the
25 door and I knew nothing more. I was in a coma.
1 Probably no one dared touch me.
2 Q. Please speak very slowly, Mr Babic. Thank you.
3 A. I could feel a fever coming, and something cold on my
4 head. Somebody must have been pouring water over my
5 head, and I regained consciousness. I was in a very bad
6 condition. I did not know anything from then on.
7 To days later, Esad Landzo came up, kicked me with
8 his foot, and told me to get up. He took me out, and to
9 the same spot where I had been beaten, and he told me to
10 lie down.
11 Q. Excuse me, if I could interrupt you, Mr Babic.
12 A. It was sunny.
13 Q. In which place inside the camp was that occurring?
14 A. Maybe fifteen metres from the door.
15 Q. From the door of what?
16 A. From the door of the building.
17 Q. Of which building?
18 A. From building 6.
19 Q. Can you say approximately in which time did this happen,
20 or at least very approximately in which time did this
22 A. Somewhere around 12.00.
23 Q. I mean not only the real time, but the period of time,
24 which week, which month at least?
25 A. It was after -- around 20th July 1992.
1 Q. Thank you.
2 A. May I go on?
3 Q. You can go ahead, yes. Very slowly, please.
4 A. Esad Landzo ordered me to lie down. I did. He told me
5 to uncover my legs, to lift my trouser legs, so I was
6 bare. He held a bottle in his hand and he asked me, "Do
7 you know what this is?" And he had a knife in his
8 hand. I said, "I do not know", and he opened this
9 bottle, and poured some stuff on my right leg, and I
10 could smell that it was petrol, and then he set fire to
11 my leg. I saw the flame. It was very painful. I
12 almost lost consciousness. This did not last very
14 He covered that leg up, and he told me to get up.
15 He kicked me a couple of times. He went back to the
16 door. I removed the plank. I went in, and sat down.
17 What happened later with my leg, some blisters and
18 burns and there was a yellow liquid pouring from that
19 leg. So I did not know where the pain was worse, in my
20 chest, my head, my legs, my burns. I could not stand up
21 any more, and Hazim Delic knows well. He would come in
22 the afternoon, about 3.00, and he would take fifty men
23 in front of building 6. There was a canal there. There
24 was water, and he would select those fifty men to
25 urinate and then the next 50 would go there. As I could
1 not stand up alone, Dragan Tomic would help me, and he
2 would lead me there, and back, and it happened like this
3 on a daily basis. That is how I lived throughout that
4 period. I was quite incapable of doing anything.
5 I can also remember somewhere around 1st or 8th
6 August, the International Red Cross came to visit number
8 Q. Excuse me, Mr Babic, we will see that later. Before
9 that, I would like you to describe the physical
10 consequences which you suffered after the detention at
11 Celebici. Can you describe the physical consequences on
12 your body after that?
13 A. I can. I have three teeth knocked out and fractured
14 ribs, and I also have consequences of the burns when
15 Esad Landzo poured gasolene over me.
16 Q. Are you in a condition, Mr Babic, to show to the court,
17 if you wish -- is that scar fill visible on the leg?
18 A. Yes, it is visible, and I can show it.
19 Q. Could you show to the court this -- the scar?
20 A. How shall I do it?
21 Q. You can maybe move around, maybe somebody could help him
22 to have this shown to the court. I do not know whether
23 the camera can show in a proper way this leg?
24 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Let him speak to the microphone.
25 MR TURONE: You can go back to your seat now.
1 MS McMURREY: Your Honour, could we as defence counsel just
2 approach to see the wound?
3 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Yes, I suppose so.
4 MS McMURREY: Thank you very much.
5 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: The defence counsel wish to see the
7 MR TURONE: May I proceed, your Honour?
8 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Yes, you can.
9 MR TURONE: Mr Babic, did you actually know Mr Delic from
10 before the war?
11 A. Yes, I knew him. I knew him well.
12 Q. Can you explain better how come you knew him from before
13 the war and how long a time before?
14 A. I knew him for a long time. He worked for the same
15 company for which I worked, but he was a different
16 unit. That was called mechanisation unit. I do not
17 know what he was by trade, but I think he did something
18 with trucks there, and we knew each other well. We
19 greeted each other and never felt anything -- we never
20 had much contact. We never talked much. But, with his
21 father, I was very good friends with Ibro.
22 Q. Where was this common activity located?
23 A. It was a transportation company. I do not know what it
24 was called, and so that was a mechanisation or
25 mechanical unit. It was a company that hauled timber,
1 and I do not know what that particular unit of that
2 company was called.
3 Q. And where was this company?
4 A. That is about 100 metres from the railway station
5 towards Ovcari.
6 Q. Mr Babic --
7 A. I am sorry, that was when the narrow track railroad was
8 still there. That is where they kept the trains, and
9 that is where Hazim Delic worked, in that unit, which
10 was located there.
11 Q. Can you say in which years was that?
12 A. All the way until the war, but I do not know for how
13 many years, maybe five or six, up until the outbreak of
14 the war he worked in that company.
15 Q. Mr Babic, can you say which function did Delic have
16 inside the camp?
17 A. We called him, when he would come, Mr Commander.
18 MR MORAN: Excuse me, your Honour, unless he can show he has
19 personal knowledge of what Mr Delic's job was, his
20 title, we object on lack of personal knowledge.
21 MR TURONE: I did not get the question, I am sorry. I did
22 not get the objection.
23 MR MORAN: The objection is that, unless the witness can
24 show personal knowledge of what Mr Delic's function in
25 the camp was, we would object that he has no personal
1 knowledge, and, therefore, cannot testify as to his
3 MR TURONE: I might ask the witness, if you wish, do you
4 know anything about the function of Delic inside the
6 A. I believe that he was some kind of commander, because we
7 addressed him as "Mr Commander". Now, I do not know
8 what function it was that he had, but we called him
9 "Mr Commander", so that is how it was. I think he was
10 something to do with Pavo Mucic, his deputy, or
11 something like that. I do not know that, but he was
12 high, he had a high function. He was there all the
13 time. He was entering every day. I saw people beating
14 Vukalo Kajic and others, but, when he would enter,
15 everybody was in fear. Almost -- your heart would
16 almost burst, and I can say that, until 20th July, he
17 never touched me, and, had I not been beaten then, I
18 certainly would not be here today.
19 Q. Did you know Mr Landzo from before the war?
20 A. No, very little, nothing. I knew him later very well,
21 because he never left the camp. He had an underground
22 shelter near number 6, and I think that he was spending
23 nights there, and, whenever he wished, he would enter
24 and he was committing grave crimes on different people,
25 I can say that much.
1 Q. Did you ever hear about Esad Landzo before the war about
2 his name?
3 A. I can say that I know his father quite well. He worked
4 in the same company where I worked, and he had an uncle,
5 Nuro, and we were great friends. We went to Spajan
6 Forest together. We were inseparable, but I am
7 interested how was he born that way, and who told him
8 this, and who taught him how to do these things, to do
9 these stupid things to other people, from such a family,
10 that kind of man.
11 Q. What relationship did you have with his father and
13 A. With the uncle, a very good relationship, and I only
14 knew his father as an acquaintance.
15 Q. And did you know that this man had a son by the name
17 A. No, I did not know that. Only after I left the camp I
18 have neighbours who went to school with Esad Landzo,
19 young people.
20 Q. Mr Babic, do you know about physical maltreatment
21 suffered by other prisoners inside Celebici camp?
22 A. I can say something about that. Some time in the middle
23 of July --
24 MS McMURREY: Your Honour, we object to this --
25 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Should he give evidence of other --
1 MS McMURREY: We object to his testifying to what happened
2 to other people in the camp, unless they can prove that
3 he has some personal knowledge about what happened to
4 other people in the camp.
5 MR TURONE: May I state the question in a different way?
6 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Actually, you may have to phrase the
7 question in a way that he has to tell you what he knew
8 of what he saw.
9 MR TURONE: May I say do you have any personal direct
10 knowledge of maltreatment suffered by any other people?
11 A. Yes, I do. I can say -- can I continue?
12 Q. Yes, of course.
13 A. Some time in mid-July, maybe -- June, maybe early June,
14 Esad Landzo came to the camp, to number 6, and asked who
15 is Bosko Samoukovic, and Bosko said, "It is me" and he
16 had a piece of wood in -- a stick in his hands, and he
17 told him to get up and put his hands behind his head,
18 and then he beat him up in the back, and he fell down.
19 Then he took him out, and then I do not know anything
20 more, but we heard that Bosko Samoukovic died later.
21 MS McMURREY: Your Honour, I object. He does not have any
22 personal knowledge to what he heard; what he saw is
24 A. But I saw.
25 MS McMURREY: If he saw it, then of course, but I do not
1 think he had personal knowledge when he said he was
2 taken out of the hangar, and he does not know. Could we
3 ask it be limited?
4 JUDGE JAN: You can say that he died, he did not come back,
5 he died.
6 A. I heard that he died in the infirmary somewhere, I do
7 not know where, I do not know about that.
8 MR TURONE: May I proceed, your Honour?
9 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Yes.
10 MR TURONE: Can you go ahead, Mr Babic?
11 A. The second victim was some time after June 15th. They
12 brought Scepo Gotovac, Hazim Delic, Adem Cosic and Esad
13 Landzo, and they put him behind the door. They got
14 outside, and that was around 12.00. That was day time,
15 and Scepo sat there, maybe one hour, I do not know how
16 long, and the door opened, and Hazim Delic came to the
17 door to take Scepo Gotovac and Adem Cosic was there and
18 next to Hazim was Esad Landzo and Hazim Delic tells
19 Scepo Gotovac to get up, and he did, and he told him,
20 "Scepo Gotovac, you killed on 29th March for the two
21 Muslims, so we will kill you here". Scepo said, "I
22 never killed anyone", and he cursed his mother, and --
23 Q. A little slower, Mr Babic.
24 A. And kicked him and then Scepo fell down on the concrete,
25 and the three of them took him out, and I heard wailing,
1 and I heard something like blows and then I started
2 counting, then I stopped, and then they threw him back
3 in. Scepo was still alive, and he sat on the concrete
4 behind the door maybe an hour or two later, again Hazim
5 Delic came to the door, and Hazim and Esad, and also
6 told him the same thing as the first time, and Adem
7 Cosic had a knife in his hand and they took him by hands
8 and feet, and Hazim put a knife next to him and they
9 took him out and then beat him again, and then he was
10 again wailing and --
11 Q. Slower, please, Mr Babic.
12 A. Then they put him back in. Then they threw him back
13 in. He had something on his forehead. I do not know
14 what it was. I thought it was like a badge or
15 something. I do not know if they put something on his
16 forehead, and Scepo Gotovac was dead. I do not know
17 what it was, and in the morning, they took him out, and
18 I do not know anything about Scepo any more. That is
19 the second victim.
20 The third victim. Late July/early August of 1992,
21 in the morning, around 7.00, some certain Dragolub
22 Kujundzic, called Gago, he was called out by a guard,
23 this Kujundzic, and it took about ten minutes, and then
24 Klimenta Zeljko, who was also called Keljo, they called
25 him out to drink coffee and then ten minutes later there
1 was a gun shot, and Kujundzic Gago ran inside, and said
2 "Keljo is dead", and he cried. So that is the third
3 victim I know, and I do not remember the fourth victim.
4 I do not know the date very well.
5 Cedo Avramovic, he was called out in the evening.
6 We did not hear anything. He was held outside, and then
7 he came to the door, and he went to his place. In the
8 morning we found him dead on the floor.
9 Then I remember the other ones. I remember Pero
10 Mrkajic, Simo Jovanovic, and I remember some others, but
11 I know that Esad Landzo beat Simo Jovanovic for three
12 days, and those people disappeared.
13 MS McMURREY: Your Honour, I object. Excuse me?
14 A. I do not know where these people finished.
15 MS McMURREY: We object to him testifying about these other
16 three people, that he just said they were beaten. He
17 has no personal knowledge. The prosecution has not
18 qualified him as having any personal knowledge.
19 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Actually, have you been listening to
20 what he is saying?
21 MS McMURREY: Yes, your Honour, I have.
22 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: First listen to what he said, and then
23 object. I think that is a better way, if you listen and
24 then you find that he is not testifying to his personal
25 knowledge of what he has seen and heard, and then object
1 to it. Let us hear him say what he said.
2 MR TURONE: Okay, you can go ahead, Mr Babic.
3 A. As I spoke about the victims as I could see, and I also
4 know people who were disappearing, whom I remember. I
5 could not see well all the time I was sick, and others
6 saw better than I did.
7 As far as I remember, there were nine victims in
8 number 6, and what I saw, I did see, and I can prove
10 Q. Mr Babic, can you say who was the commander of the camp
12 A. No. I did not know who it was. When I left the camp, I
13 heard that the camp commander in Konjic was Zejnil
14 Delalic, but I do not know anything else about him.
15 Q. Were there any occasion in which we could meet Mr Mucic
16 in the camp?
17 A. Yes, I had several opportunities, but I did not know
18 him. He would come there infrequently. He came once.
19 There was a man, they called him "Tarzan", and he talked
20 to him some and then he left. And then -- but I did not
21 know him then. So I saw him twice. He would come in,
22 and somebody would say, "This is the commander".
23 Q. What do you mean "come in"? Come in where?
24 A. To the camp, all the way to the door. He would step in,
25 make two steps, and then he would talk to Tarzan, and
1 then he left. That is when I saw him entering.
2 Q. You mean the door of what?
3 A. That was number 6 in the camp, and the door opened, and
4 he entered, and he stood at the door, and to the right,
5 next to the door, was this older man, Tarzan, and then
6 he talked to him, and then, after a while, he left. And
7 that is what I saw.
8 Q. And did Mr Mucic wear a uniform?
9 A. Yes, a green camouflage uniform.
10 Q. Did you know Mr Mucic from before the war?
11 A. No.
12 Q. Do you know who was Mr Mucic's superior, if you are
13 aware of this?
14 A. According to others, it was the camp commander in
16 Q. I did not get the answer, Mr Babic. My question was did
17 you know --
18 MR O'SULLIVAN: Your Honour, I object to that question.
19 Again, a lack of personal knowledge. It has not been
21 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: I do not know what you mean by
22 "personal knowledge". Whether he knew who was the camp
23 commander, he was an inmate of the camp, was he not?
24 MR O'SULLIVAN: Yes.
25 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: And what else?
1 MR O'SULLIVAN: He is being asked who is the superior.
2 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Possibly, if he was familiar with the
3 place in which he was a member, it is likely he would
4 know. He may be wrong, but maybe that is his knowledge
5 of the place.
6 MR TURONE: May I proceed? Have you any knowledge of who
7 was -- I am sorry?
8 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Yes, please go on with your question.
9 MR TURONE: May I proceed?
10 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Yes.
11 MR TURONE: My question --
12 A. May I proceed about Pavo Mucic?
13 Q. My question is have you any knowledge of who was the
14 superior of Mr Mucic?
15 A. Well, Hazim Delic.
16 Q. Do you mean Delic was the superior of Pavo Mucic?
17 A. I do not know who was superior, who was older, I do not
18 know that.
19 Q. When I say "superior", I do not mean "older". I mean
20 superior in his rank.
21 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: He has answered your question. He did
22 not know who was the superior. I think that is
24 MR TURONE: That is all right, okay. Were you ever
25 interrogated by military investigators during your stay
1 in Celebici?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. And when and where in the camp?
4 A. In 22. I was taken out one day and they asked me what
5 I had in terms of weapons, and I told them that I had a
6 revolver with a permit since 1967, that it was issued by
7 MUP in Konjic and after that they did not ask me much.
8 They put me in 22, and then I was not called out any
10 Q. Do you remember how many people did interrogate you?
11 A. I think there were three of them sitting there around --
12 behind the table, not more than three.
13 Q. Do you remember or know their names, or the name of any
14 one of them?
15 A. I know one of them, Miro Stenek from Konjic.
16 Q. Were they in uniform?
17 A. Yes, they were -- no, I cannot recall, because that was
18 in the evening when they took me out.
19 Q. Okay.
20 A. And I could not see well. I had had enough of life by
21 that time.
22 Q. Mr Babic, were you accused of anything specific by these
23 three investigators?
24 A. No, I was not accused of anything.
25 Q. Did you sign any piece of paper after the interrogation
1 on their request?
2 A. No, I did not sign anything.
3 Q. Was that a long interrogation? How long did it last?
4 A. No, that was very, very short. Maybe five or six
6 Q. Was there any judicial proceedings against you after
8 A. No, there was nothing, no, no legal proceedings.
9 Q. Mr Babic, did the Red Cross ever visit the camp?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. How many times?
12 A. Around 1st August, it was the first time when the
13 International Red Cross came to number 6, and they
14 entered by themselves. There was nobody else but them.
15 They closed the door behind them, and they questioned us
16 for some two hours on what the situation was, whether we
17 were beaten, whether we had anything to eat, what was
18 the discipline, whether there were any crimes, and some
19 responded, and then they were showing them burns. Esad
20 Landzo had built some fire, and Vulo Mrkajic and Vukalo,
21 and he burnt them with some iron bar.
22 MS McMURREY: Your Honour, we object. What he is saying
23 right now, it has not been proven that he has any
24 personal knowledge about any fire or burning of somebody
25 by Esad Landzo. He is just talking from hearsay right
1 now, or from no personal knowledge.
2 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Let us hear your question again.
3 MR TURONE: My question was -- pardon, Mr Babic, my question
4 was, did the Red Cross ever visit the camp, and you said
5 yes. How many times, and what happened on that
6 occasion? This was my question, your Honour.
7 A. Yes, I will continue. So the International Red Cross
8 called us individually, us who were burnt and who were
9 injured, to show the wounds, and some went over there,
10 but I did not dare go. So it was about two hours that
11 it all lasted, and then they left, and they said that
12 they would come back in about ten days.
13 About half an hour later, Hazim Delic comes, and
14 some others with him, and he had something like a wooden
15 bat. It was wider at the top, and he cursed us, and he
16 said, "What were you talking?", and we all got beaten.
17 So ten days later, the International Red Cross
18 came again. It was 12th August 1992. They came the
19 same way into --
20 Q. Speak slowly, please, Mr Babic.
21 A. Number 6, and we told the International Red Cross, "Do
22 not come here, because we are being beaten because of
23 you". And then they said, "Do not be afraid, just raise
24 your hands who was", and some did, and they said, "They
25 will not beating any more", and then again for two hours
1 they talked to us again, asked us when we were detained,
2 took down dates, and registered us.
3 Then, they called me again, and they asked me to
4 show my right ankle, and then they looked at it, and
5 registered it, took it down in writing. And on 12th
6 August 1992, after that time, it was better. There were
7 no beatings, nothing.
8 Then we started receiving visits from home. There
9 was food coming from home. It was better, so.
10 Q. Can you say when did you leave Celebici camp, Mr Babic?
11 A. Yes, I can. 1st September 1992, around 12.00. Pavo
12 Mucic came to the door. He came inside, followed by
13 Hazim Delic, and at the door, the first people, they
14 asked them what they had in terms of weapons, and every
15 third or fourth was sort of called out by Delic, and
16 they were leaving, and then my turn came, and he asked
17 me, "What kind of weapon did you have?" I said, "A
18 revolver with a permit". "You are the forest guard?"
19 "Yes". He said, "Step out". And the Red Cross was
20 there about fifteen metres away, and I crossed over to
21 them. They marked something. There was a van, and I
22 entered. There was a lot of us, and we went to Musala
23 Sports Centre in Konjic.
24 Then I was again put in room number 10, and
25 there --
1 Q. Okay, Mr Babic, just a moment, please. When you left
2 Celebici camp, you said on September 1st, was Mr Esad
3 Landzo still there as a guard?
4 A. Five or six days, he did not come to the camp. Whether
5 he came back, I do not know.
6 Q. So when you left the camp, Mr Landzo was not there any
8 A. No, he was not.
9 Q. And when had he left before that?
10 A. I do not know. Maybe five or six days before I left. I
11 left on 1st September. He simply disappeared. I never
12 saw him again. But before that, he would enter daily.
13 Q. Mr Babic, just shortly, how long were you kept in Musala
14 after leaving Celebici?
15 A. I got there on 1st September 1992, and I left the sports
16 hall at Konjic on 24th September for the camp of Trnovo
17 near Kalovnik. I spent only 24 days in Konjic, the
19 Q. You mean in Trnovo and Musala, yes. What about Trnovo?
20 How long did you stay in Trnovo?
21 A. I went to Trnovo, and I stayed from 24th September until
22 12th October 1992.
23 Q. And what happened then?
24 A. I was in Trnovo. It was the same kind of treatment as
25 in number 6, only they did not beat us. They would come
1 during the day, three of them, with arms in camouflage
3 Q. Yes, but how long, the time you remained in there?
4 A. I stayed there from 24th September 1992 till 12th
5 October 1992, so you know how many days.
6 Q. And what happened after that?
7 A. What happened was that one day, this was on 12th in the
8 afternoon, they came, three men, armed men came to the
9 door, and they pointed at me and told me to come out. I
10 went out. There was Radan Bendo, who was also taken
11 out. There were some white rags, and they tied my
12 eyes. They blindfolded me, and I had to climb up into
13 the truck, and this Bendo, his eyes were blindfolded
14 too. And then for three kilometres, this truck went
15 on. Then somebody led me by the arm, and I later learnt
16 it was Rogo, and they asked me whether I could see, and
17 I said I could not. We went down the slope, and then
18 they started swearing at us, our Serb ethnic mothers,
19 and then I fell on something hard.
20 Q. Did you still remain prisoner after October 12th?
21 A. Let me just tell you, no, I was not. They took me out.
22 I fell on something hard, they took off the blindfold.
23 I saw a road, and a forest, and this man I learnt later
24 his name was Zuric, he was deputy police chief in
25 Trnovo. He told me, "You have five kilometres to go
1 from here. There is no one there. It is a buffer
2 zone. Be careful. It is all mined. Go and join your
3 people. If you get killed, you get killed". When he
4 took off the blindfold, I saw Bendo Radan too, and we
5 went together straight ahead, and we walked about five
6 kilometres, and the place is called Dobropolje. There
7 were three people also wearing camouflage uniform in our
8 direction. I did not know what to do, because I know
9 that people in camouflage uniform had beaten us before,
10 and then, as we got closer, they said, "We are Serbs".
11 It was the Serb Army, and about 200 metres from the
12 barracks, we sat -- they took us inside, a car came to
13 pick us up, and from Dobropolje, it is 20 kilometres by
14 road, and they took us to Kalovnik. When we got to
15 Kalovnik in the police station, the MUP, I had 39
16 kilos. They weighed me. I weighed 39 kilos.
17 And that was my story from May 22nd 1992 until
18 12th October 1992. I have nothing more to say. Five
19 years have gone by since. I cannot remember
20 everything. One forgets. Only the scars remain and the
21 wounds one cannot forget.
22 Q. All right, Mr Babic, thank you very much. Your Honour,
23 I have finished my examination-in-chief.
24 A. Thank you.
25 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Thank you very much.
1 A. Thank you too. May I go?
2 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: No, not for the time being.
3 MR TURONE: Just wait for a moment, please, Mr Babic.
4 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: We would have wished to continue, but I
5 think it is almost 1.00 pm. It will not be possible for
6 us to continue, even with the cross-examination, today,
7 because we have to vacate -- we have to go to lunch, and
8 after lunch, another Trial Chamber will occupy this
9 courtroom, the only courtroom we have, and, therefore,
10 we will have to adjourn these proceedings until Monday
11 for cross-examination.
12 (12.55 pm)
13 (Tribunal adjourned)