1 Monday, 17th March 1997
2 (10.00 am)
3 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Good morning, ladies and gentlemen. We
4 are continuing this morning with the cross-examination
5 of Mr Babic. Let us check whether the equipment is all
6 working because we had to be interrupted several times.
7 So let us check.
8 THE INTEPRETER: English booth, can you hear me?
9 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Are there any faults on the equipment
10 so we can remedy them before we start? Okay. Call the
11 case, please.
12 THE REGISTRAR: Case number IT-96-21-T.
13 MS McMURREY: Your Honour, if I might, I have one matter
14 before cross-examination.
15 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Remind the witness he is still under
17 THE REGISTRAR: Mr Babic, may I remind you that you are
18 still under oath.
19 MS McMURREY: Your Honour, if I might, we just have one
20 matter to bring to the court's attention before we begin
21 cross-examination; that is that the defence received a
22 letter from the prosecution on February 28th listing a
23 whole list of documents provided by the Bosnian
24 government finally, and after we received the letter,
25 the defence requested to review the documents. They
1 were reviewed and then a request was made for a copy of
2 certain documents. Those documents were just provided
3 to the defence on Thursday, March 13th, and we have been
4 unable to get two of the documents translated into
5 English. They are very important to the
6 cross-examination of this witness.
7 The Registrar's office is working diligently with
8 us right now to solve this matter. They have assured us
9 it will be solved by noon. I wanted to ask the court's
10 tolerance. We do need that document just in case we
11 have completed with cross-examination to allow us to get
12 that document before the total completion of this
14 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Where are we at the cross-examination
15 stage? Can we continue from that?
16 MS RESIDOVIC: Your Honour, according to your instructions
17 the defence would like to inform you that the beginning
18 of the cross-examination will be done by defence counsel
19 Tapuskovic defending Pavo Mucic. After that the
20 cross-examination will be taken over by Ms McMurrey on
21 behalf of Esad Landzo, and after that Mr Moran on behalf
22 of the defence of Hazim Delic, and the fourth to
23 cross-examine will be lawyer Edina Residovic defending
24 Zejnil Delalic. Thank you.
25 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Thank you very much for underlining
1 the order in which the cross-examination is to took
2 place. Can you now proceed the way you have defined
4 Cross-examination by MR TAPUSKOVIC
5 MR TAPUSKOVIC: Your Honours, I shall begin, as agreed by
6 the defence, so that I shall be the first to address a
7 number of questions to the witness Babic.
8 Mr Babic, I am defence counsel of Pavo Mucic and I
9 would like to ask you to answer a few questions. The
10 first thing I would like to ask you is as follows. When
11 Pavo Mucic on 1st September 1992 at the end of the
12 conversation with you, he addressed you with the polite
13 "you". Did he use this "you", the polite form of "you"
14 throughout that conversation?
15 A. No. I saw Mr Pavo in building number 6 on the 1st
16 September, when he came and called me out. I went out
17 and that is all I know. I know he came once again. I
18 am just --
19 Q. I will ask that later. I am asking you about that
20 particular conversation. How long did it last between
21 the two of you?
22 A. It was very brief. He just said "get up" and I did.
23 Q. Thank you. Was that your only direct contact in
24 Celebici with him?
25 A. Yes, it was.
1 Q. What exactly did you do after this conversation with
2 him? What did you do?
3 A. I did nothing but I went out and the International Red
4 Cross was about 15 metres from the door. They had some
5 lists and they were taking notes. There was a van
6 waiting for us and then they took us to the Musala
7 Sports Hall in Konjic. That is all.
8 Q. That is fine but what I am interested in is the van that
9 you climbed into. Can you describe it for us?
10 A. I do not know how to describe it. I know we call it a
11 combi, a combi-van. It is closed. It has a casing.
12 The door is somewhere in the middle. The driver sits
13 down and that is it.
14 Q. How much space was there inside? When you climbed in,
15 were there other people inside?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. How many?
18 A. I cannot remember. Quite a number. I cannot remember.
19 I cannot remember.
20 Q. But the moment that you climbed in, how many people were
22 A. I cannot remember. There were a lot of us.
23 Q. Can you tell us how many?
24 A. No, I cannot.
25 Q. Were those people who climbed in -- did they talk to
1 Mucic before that?
2 A. I can tell you that Mr Mucic and Hazim Delic, they went
3 along and asked about weapons,. Every fourth and every
4 fifth they would call out and take outside and that is
5 how my turn came. I went out and got into the combi.
6 There were lots of other people inside and that is how I
7 got to Konjic.
8 Q. You cannot even tell us roughly how many people?
9 A. No, I cannot. I am sorry.
10 Q. Were they all prisoners from the same hangar as you?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Do you know the name of any single one of those persons
14 A. Yes. Scepo Vukalo. He is my neighbour. I remember
15 him. Bozo Tomic, also a neighbour of mine from
17 Q. Any other name?
18 A. Davor Bendo, also my neighbour from the village of
19 Bijelovcina I remember.
20 Q. Who was driving the car?
21 A. I do not know. A driver.
22 Q. Is he a driver -- was he from Bosnia?
23 A. I do not know; I do not know. I cannot tell you.
24 Q. And that is when you left Celebici?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. Do you know whether that was the only van taking people
2 from Celebici?
3 A. I know that it took me to Musala. I do not know about
5 Q. When you reached Musala, did you see any people there
6 who were previously in Celebici and now they were in
8 A. Well, I cannot remember. There were some people who
9 left number 6 in Celebici.
10 Q. Yes, but were they in Musala when you got there?
11 A. Yes, probably.
12 Q. Before this conversation that you had with Mucic, the
13 only one you had, you said that you saw him once again;
14 is that true?
15 A. But I didn't know him at the time but other people told
16 me who he was.
17 Q. You did not talk to him then?
18 A. No.
19 Q. You just saw him talking to a man called Tarzan?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. And that was at the entrance to the hangar?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Did you hear what they were talking about?
24 A. No, I was not interested.
25 Q. Were they talking in whispers or --
1 A. No, I was not interested.
2 Q. Did he address anyone else?
3 A. No, he just spoke to him. Maybe he knew him. I do not
5 Q. If I am not mistaken, you mentioned a motor. How did he
6 get to the entrance of the hangar. You said he made two
8 A. No, I didn't say that. About 9 o'clock in the morning I
9 heard the sound of a motor engine and people said that
10 Pavo was coming and then he would come in front of the
11 hangar, but the door was closed. Then maybe five or ten
12 minutes later we heard -- we would hear the sound of the
13 engine again and he would disappear. No, I didn't see
14 him when he came. He would not enter. I saw him only
16 Q. I am interested that he was wearing a camouflage
17 uniform. Was he wearing that uniform both times when he
18 spoke to you and this other time?
19 A. Yes. Both times.
20 Q. And when he was on a motorcycle did he wear -- was he
21 wearing anything else?
22 A. I didn't see him. He did not enter number 6.
23 Q. Do you know who this man is, this man Tarzan? Did you
24 learn later on what his name is, his name?
25 A. I do not know exactly. I think he was from Gradina, the
1 village of Gradina, from the municipality of Konjic.
2 Q. Did you see him ever again afterwards? Do you know what
3 happened to him?
4 A. No, I do not.
5 Q. Thank you?
6 A. You are welcome.
7 Q. You said that day that the Red Cross came three times?
8 A. No, twice.
9 Q. You mentioned on 12th August?
10 A. I said somewhere around the 1st or 2nd they came and
11 then ten days later about the 12th, and --
12 Q. And then the day that you left?
13 A. Oh, yes, yes. That was the third time.
14 Q. So they were there three times?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. For the first time you said the visit lasted two hours?
17 A. Yes, about two hours.
18 Q. Can you determine how long the previous visits lasted
19 the second time on the 12th?
20 A. Well, maybe also about one to two hours.
21 Q. They asked you individually to show your injuries. Was
22 that all they did?
23 A. Then they entered us in a registrar. They asked when we
24 were brought there and so on. That is all.
25 MR TURONE: I beg your pardon. May we ask defence counsel
1 and witness to slow down a little there? Thank you very
3 MR TAPUSKOVIC: Yes, I will. When they came for the second
4 time you said they were there again for two hours. Was
5 the purpose of their visit the same as the previous
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Is that all they did?
9 A. I do not know. I just know they took down our names,
10 they registered us, and they asked us to show our
11 injuries, and then they took note of that and that is
13 Q. When the Red Cross left, you said on Wednesday that
14 conditions improved, that you were allowed visitors and
15 that you received food. Who enabled this?
16 A. Probably the International Red Cross.
17 Q. But the Red Cross came and left?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Who allowed it?
20 A. I do not know. I just know that it was easier for us
21 and we were told that it was the International Red
22 Cross, together with the command.
23 Q. Was it the commanders of the camp?
24 A. I do not know.
25 Q. But the Red Cross was no longer there?
1 A. No.
2 Q. Well, who allowed visitors to see you?
3 A. We did not see any representatives. They did not come.
4 We just received bags of things.
5 Q. Who allowed this?
6 A. I do not know.
7 Q. I have just one more thing to ask you. When you went in
8 the direction of the camp did the soldiers search you?
9 A. No.
10 Q. You personally? Did you have anything personally on
12 A. No nothing.
13 Q. So when you entered the camp you had nothing?
14 A. Nothing.
15 Q. Do you know who is Ismeta Pozder?
16 A. Yes, I knew her.
17 Q. Was she in the camp on the day you left?
18 A. No. I said that on 23rd September, yes, when I -- no,
19 no, in May, not September, when I and Slobodan Babic
20 went from the Musala Sports Hall by truck; we reached
21 Radava. It is a hotel. It is 1 km from Radava to
22 Musala. When we entered that hotel that is when we saw
23 Ismeta Pozder. What she was doing, that I do not know.
24 Q. Did you see her in the camp?
25 A. No, I didn't.
1 Q. Thank you.
2 A. You're welcome.
3 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Thank you very much. Any other
5 Cross-examined by MISS McMURREY
6 MS McMURREY: Yes, your Honour. If I might use the podium
7 because I have all these papers; would you mind?
8 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Feel free.
9 MS McMURREY: Thank you. May it please the court. May I
11 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Yes.
12 MS McMURREY: Thank you. Good morning, Mr Babic. My name
13 is Cynthia McMurrey?
14 A. Morning.
15 Q. We have never met before you came into the court room,
16 have we?
17 A. No.
18 Q. On February 20th, 1996 you visited with the prosecutor,
19 did you not?
20 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Is the witness hearing?
21 A. Would you please repeat the question?
22 MS McMURREY: I am sorry. On February 26th, 1996, you
23 visited with the prosecutor, did you not?
24 A. Where did I meet with the prosecutor?
25 Q. You offered a sworn statement on February 26th, 1996 for
1 the prosecution, did you not?
2 A. Yes, I did. I did make such a statement. I made a
3 statement in February, yes.
4 Q. Thank you. Also in the last month the prosecution
5 notified you that I would like an opportunity to visit
6 you too, did they not?
7 A. You can.
8 Q. I mean, they told you that we would like to come to
9 Bijelovcina and visit with you, did they not?
10 A. No.
11 Q. You mean the prosecution never notified you that the
12 defence wanted to visit with you?
13 A. I do not know. I cannot remember.
14 Q. Okay. Well, we did not get an opportunity to visit with
15 you before your testifying in court, did we?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Mr Babic, did you refresh your memory with any document
18 before testifying on Wednesday or today?
19 A. I didn't use any documents. I just said what I saw and
20 what I lived through and that is what is imprinted in my
21 mind, what I felt on my own skin and that is what I
22 could talk about.
23 Q. Before you have testified, you had a long meeting with
24 the prosecution, did you not?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. They prepared you for testifying. Who were the other
2 people that were present at that meeting?
3 A. I do not know.
4 Q. Were there other witnesses --
5 A. How do -- I do not know. I do not know any of them.
6 Q. Were there other witnesses from Bosnia at this meeting?
7 A. No, no. No, I was alone.
8 Q. One more question: the interpreter for your statement,
9 the person you spoke to when you made your statement on
10 February 20th: she was Serbian, was she not?
11 A. I do not know.
12 Q. Okay. Now, you described in your testimony on Wednesday
13 that you were a forester, did you not, by profession?
14 A. Yes, yes, I am a forester.
15 Q. And you are -- I want to remind you, Mr Babic, that you
16 are under oath. I know the court did that already?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Now when you were a forester, it has been alleged by
19 people in your community that you took money to allow
20 people to cut trees illegally at that point. Is that
21 true or not?
22 A. No. That is an absolute lie. It is an insult for me.
23 Q. And the truth is that Mr Turone asked you on Wednesday
24 that you were a forester by profession whenever the war
25 broke out, did he not?
1 A. No. Four or five months ago I retired.
2 Q. In fact, you have not been a forester for quite a while,
3 have you?
4 A. Before the war, about five months before the war, I
6 Q. When you say you retired, you were terminated from that
7 job, were you not?
8 A. No. I do not know. Whoever had 28 years of service and
9 was of a certain age, he was laid off, and that is what
10 happened to me. So I retired. I got some kind of an
11 administrative pension, as we call it.
12 Q. So when you were working as a forester, you were also
13 employed at Pilana; is that correct?
14 A. Yes. The Timber Industrial Enterprise, Konjic. It is a
15 timber industry enterprise.
16 Q. In fact, you worked at Pilana along with Mr Landzo's
17 father, did you not?
18 A. That was about 1966, 1967. Yes, we worked together.
19 Q. The truth of the matter is that you were fired from the
20 job at Pilana because you were caught drinking on the
21 job, were you not?
22 A. No.
23 Q. It is your testimony before this court today that you
24 were not terminated from your job at Pilana because of
25 drinking; is that correct?
1 MR TURONE: Objection, your Honour. This is not relevant
2 to the case.
3 MS McMURREY: Your Honour, any time this witness has
4 testified, his credibility is at issue. Therefore, I
5 have a right to go into whether he is telling the truth
6 about the thing he testified on on direct examination.
7 He testified he was a forester whenever the war broke
8 out. That is not true. He also testified just then
9 that he was not fired from his job and we will be able
10 to present evidence that he was at a later date.
11 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: The objection is overruled.
12 MS McMURREY: Thank you. In fact, Mr Babic, the people in
13 your community might say that you have a drinking
14 problem, would they not?
15 A. No. That is just propaganda, lies and insults against
17 Q. So there is no truth then to someone in your community
18 saying that you had an accident on the job at Pilana,
19 whereby you were drunk and you fell into some hot
20 plaster. That is not true; is that what you are telling
21 this tribunal?
22 A. No. No. There is no truth in that.
23 Q. Okay. You say that you come from the village -- and
24 pardon my pronunciation of these -- Bijelovcina; is that
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. And you go by a nickname, Jaranica; do you not?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. "Jaranica" means "little friend"; is that correct?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. You are a Bosnian Serb, are you not?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. You were born in Bosnia, were you not?
9 A. I was born in Herzegovina.
10 Q. Therefore you are a citizen --
11 A. Village of Bijelovcina, Konjic, Herzegovina, but all
12 this used to be part of Bosnia-Herzegovina.
13 Q. So you are a citizen of the state of Bosnia-Herzegovina,
14 are you not?
15 A. I was in times gone by.
16 Q. And you are right now, are you not?
17 A. No.
18 Q. You mean you have forfeited your citizenship of the
19 country today?
20 A. No. No. I didn't.
21 Q. The most important thing is in April and May of 1992 and
22 June and July and August of 1992 you were a citizen of
23 Bosnia-Herzegovina, were you not?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. In fact, you voted or you could have voted in the March
1 1st, referendum, could you not?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Did you vote in that referendum?
4 A. I did.
5 Q. And you are an active member of the SDS, are you not?
6 A. I was. I was not active, but I was a member.
7 Q. So you were an active member of the SDS in 1992, were
8 you not?
9 A. Yes, I was.
10 Q. In fact, you signed a sworn statement for the
11 prosecution, did you not?
12 JUDGE JAN: Hold on for a moment. What is SDS?
13 MS McMURREY: Would you tell the judges of this tribunal
14 what SDS stand for.
15 JUDGE JAN: What does it mean, not what does it stand for?
16 A. The Serbian Democratic Party.
17 JUDGE JAN: SDP?
18 MS McMURREY: I think it is called SDS. For us it would be
19 SDP but for them it is another word meaning the same
21 A. It is known as SDS.
22 Q. I want to make it clear so the court understands that
23 the leader of the SDS in Bosnia-Herzegovina that
24 represented us in the assembly was a man named Radovan
25 Karadzic, was it not?
1 A. Yes. Well, I do not know exactly who represented me.
2 Q. You mean you do not know who Radovan Karadzic is?
3 A. I was not interested in that. I wish nobody had
4 represented me. It would have been better if I had
5 stayed to live in Yugoslavia and Bosnia-Herzegovina in a
6 nice country among our people.
7 Q. Yes. That is a shame. That is true, but the way it was
8 in 1992 was there was a definite split in the parties.
9 There was the SDS and then there was the Bosnian Muslim
10 party also, was there not, the SDA?
11 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: What is his answer to that? Let us
12 hear his answer to that question.
13 A. I do not know. I do not know these things.
14 MS McMURREY: Well, in 1992 you were considered the leader
15 of the SDS party in your village, were you not?
16 A. No.
17 Q. So it is your testimony before this tribunal today that
18 you were not considered a leader of the Serbian party in
19 your community; is that correct?
20 A. They did not consider me that. I was not interested in
21 that. I was 60 years old. I was not interested in
22 anything any more. I got a pension and all I wanted was
23 to live quietly a few more days, to enjoy our freedom
24 that we used to have, to be able to walk around and take
25 it easy. I never thought until then that war would ever
1 break out. Nobody could have persuaded me that a war
2 would happen.
3 Q. Excuse me. The witness is not answering the question.
4 He is going into a narrative. Could you please limit
5 his question to --
6 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: He was explaining to you that he was
7 never interested in those things thereafter.
8 MS McMURREY: Yes. Well, in your statement on February
9 20th, 1996 you demonstrated to this court that you were
10 aware of what was happening in Bosnia Herzegovina at the
11 time, were you not? In fact, you began your statement
13 "When the Croat and Muslim part of the Sarajevo
14 Assembly seceded, we got scared", did you not? So you
15 were aware of what was happening, were you not?
16 A. I can answer that question. May I answer that question?
17 Q. Yes, please?
18 A. On 4th April 1992 we heard that Bosnia-Herzegovina had
19 seceded from Yugoslavia and somehow this was a problem,
20 because we were already scared. So we had to look after
21 our homes and stables because we were afraid someone
22 might attack us, because I had experience from the
23 previous world wars, and if I may tell you about that
24 experience and how it was that we were scared that we
25 might get killed.
1 Q. Excuse me. I would just like to ask. You said you
2 heard that the Croat Muslim part of the Sarajevo
3 Assembly seceded. You heard that on your radio, did you
5 A. I do not know exactly. I know people were talking about
6 it. I cannot remember I heard it on the radio.
7 Q. You possessed a radio in your home, did you not?
8 A. I didn't have a radio.
9 Q. But your neighbours --
10 A. I lived alone as a bachelor in one room. So I didn't
11 have much.
12 Q. But you did listen to the radio, did you not, in your
14 A. No, I didn't really listen to it, to tell you the
15 truth. I do not listen to it even today.
16 Q. Well, the truth of the matter is that the Croat and
17 Muslim part of the Sarajevo Assembly did not secede at
18 all, did they? The Serbian part of the coalition walked
19 out of the Assembly in 1991, did they not?
20 A. I do not meddle in those things. I do not know anything
21 about politics and those things. Who seceded, what
22 seceded. All I know is what I heard, what I just said
23 and I do not know anything else and I was not interested
24 in anything else. I cannot answer those questions.
25 Q. Well, your fear stemmed from the fact that there was a
1 break between the Croats and Muslims and the Serbians in
2 the assembly in Sarajevo; is that correct?
3 MR TURONE: Objection, your Honour. This is not part of
4 the direct examination of the witness and he already
5 said he does not know.
6 MS McMURREY: Your Honour, if I may respond, he signed a
7 sworn statement that was provided to all of us, and he
8 begins his statement with telling us about the political
9 atmosphere. I believe that the defence has a right to
10 go into his knowledge about such statements.
11 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Yes, you can cross-examine but you
12 will take the consequences of whatever comes from it.
13 MS McMURREY: Yes, I am aware. Thank you. Now, the talk
14 in your community: you were aware of who Radovan
15 Karadzic was and you were aware that he gave a speech
16 talking about the disappearance of the Muslim people,
17 were you not?
18 A. No, I do not know anything about that.
19 Q. You are aware that the Serbians began the aggression in
20 this war, are you not?
21 A. No, I do not know.
22 MR TURONE: Objection, your Honour. This is not part of
23 the direct examination.
24 A. I do not interfere in politics. I do not know anything
25 about those things. Do not ask me such questions.
1 MS McMURREY: So if there are other witnesses that will
2 come forward before this tribunal and testify that you
3 helped organise the Serbian resistance in your village,
4 they are going to be lying, are they not?
5 MR TURONE: Objection, your Honour, for the same reasons
6 already stated by me.
7 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Please let the witness answer the
9 A. Those are false witnesses in my view. They are not
10 telling the truth if they say such things.
11 MS McMURREY: Okay. Thank you. Many Serbs in your village
12 were armed, were they not?
13 A. I do not know. I was not. I had what I had. As I
14 said, I had a pistol with a licence.
15 Q. And when MUP, the military police, came to your village
16 and asked you to turn over your weapons peacefully, you
17 did not, did you?
18 A. No. I said at the end when they finished with me, then
19 they asked me where my pistol was and I went with them
20 and showed them where it was. On the spot I bent down.
21 I gave the pistol. He took the pistol, tore up the
22 licence and that was all. I said that in my testimony.
23 Q. Yes, Mr Babic. You also said when you were asked to
24 turn over your weapon, you went and hid it under a rock,
25 did you not?
1 A. That was when I started fleeing, when the Muslims
2 attacked my village with Boro Ivkovic I did hide it
3 under a rock. I didn't want to carry it on me, and that
4 was how I gave my pistol to Mitke Pirkic afterwards.
5 Q. You do know the military police came first and asked
6 everybody to turn over their weapons peacefully, did
7 they not, and you refused to do so?
8 A. No. No-one asked me to hand over weapons. If they had
9 asked me to, I would have given them in. I didn't need
10 that pistol anyway any more.
11 Q. You knew Dusan Bendzo was the Serb responsible for
12 distributing arms in your village, was he not?
13 A. I do not know. He made his own statement. What he did
14 he knows. He made his own statement. He knows what he
16 Q. So when you state that people in your village were not
17 armed, if witness Risto Vukolo comes and testifies and
19 "There were more than 20 people armed in
20 Bijelovcina", then he would be lying, would he not?
21 A. He will make his own statement. He will tell you what
22 happened. Everyone is responsible for himself.
23 Q. As a member of the SDS in your community, you met with
24 the other people -- the other members of the community,
25 did you not?
1 A. Yes. We neighbours would meet. Of course we would
3 Q. You were also promised by the JNA that if you held out,
4 they would come and save you, did they not?
5 A. I do not know anything about such things.
6 Q. In fact, the JNA help did not materialise, did it?
7 A. I do not know anything about that.
8 Q. So you are saying that you have an immediate loss of
9 memory in this area when you do meet with other members
10 of the community, the members of the SDS and you do not
11 remember what you talked about; is that what you are
13 A. I do not remember what I talked about with my
14 neighbours. We talked about what we were going to do,
15 what we were going to plant, about our fields and that
16 sort of thing.
17 Q. Okay. You stated that you were scared in your
19 "Scared, although we did not know what to be
20 scared of".
21 Is that true?
22 A. Yes. Yes, that is true.
23 Q. But the truth is you knew what had begun in 1991 and you
24 knew who began it, did you not?
25 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: I do not think he could answer that.
1 He has already denied it, that he did not know?
2 A. We did not know what was going to happen. I didn't
3 know. Only we knew that something was wrong. I
4 remember the Second World War in 1941, when Hitler
5 occupied Yugoslavia. I know my mother took me to hide
6 in a cave, and we somehow survived, and that is what we
7 expected in this war would happen, the war that broke
8 out in the territory of the former Yugoslavia. I also
9 thought that the best thing was to flee to the woods and
10 the caves and afterwards we would all come back home.
11 That is the experience I had of seeking shelter in the
12 woods and the caves, but this war was not like that.
13 This war forced all three peoples to flee, to seek
15 Q. Going back to the caves, if Mr Vukalo says you hid your
16 weapons in a cave, is he going to be lying?
17 A. It was not in a cave. It was under a stone. It was a
18 big rock of two or three kilos and it was not a cave,
19 next to a little wood.
20 Q. I am going to go back to your testimony on Wednesday.
21 You said that when you were arrested, the only thing
22 that you could remember was that you saw the TO, the
23 territorial defence insignia on the soldiers that
24 arrested you and that you could not notice anything
25 else; is that correct?
1 A. Yes, yes.
2 Q. That is not what you said on February 20th, 1996, is it?
3 A. I do not remember.
4 Q. In fact, your statement, your sworn statement from
5 February 20th, 1996, you talked more about the Croats
6 being the soldiers who mistreated you, did you not?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. In fact, you said they were wearing HOS insignias and
9 Ustasha insignias. Is that not right?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. But you could not remember that on Wednesday, could you?
12 A. I did say that I saw one. I recognised him, Mlikota
13 Zeljko. He was a Croat and I recognised him and he had
14 that on his left arm.
15 Q. I just want to refresh your memory from page --
16 A. That is what I said.
17 Q. -- from 255 of the record from Wednesday. Mr Turone
18 asked you:
19 "Question: Do you remember if any of them had
20 some insignia?
21 Answer: I saw there was a 'TO' on the arm. That
22 was what was written there. I could not notice anything
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. You were lying on Wednesday, were you not?
1 A. I was not lying. I said that on Wednesday. Yes, I saw
2 on the left arm "TO", and nothing else was there. That
3 is what I said.
4 Q. Yes, but on February 20th 1996 your main statement was
5 that they were all Croatian. Is that not true?
6 A. No. I do not remember that, that it was the majority,
7 but there were five, six, maybe ten Croats who wore
8 that. They wore that and they were with the Muslims
9 when we went with Mitko and Sejo. They went to the
10 right, separated out, and Mithat and ourselves went
11 towards the left towards Konjic.
12 Q. The truth is the TO forces were not just Croat forces in
13 1992. They were Croat and Muslim forces, were they not?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. In fact --
16 A. But that is how I explained it. I didn't know how else
17 to explain it.
18 Q. Okay, but there was no such thing in 1992 as strictly a
19 Muslim force, was there?
20 A. I do not know anything about that.
21 Q. In fact, the HVO, the Croatian soldiers, participated in
22 your arrest and transported you to Celebici, did they
24 A. No. They just arrested me together with the Muslim
25 soldiers and then they escorted us halfway through and
1 then they left. Then I stayed with the Mithat soldiers,
2 and the Mithat soldiers took me to Musala and then I
3 never saw the HVO group again, where they went.
4 Q. Your Honour, again, excuse me. Could I ask the court
5 just to instruct Mr Babic to answer the question?
6 A. There has been five years.
7 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Remember I told you when you are
8 cross-examining, you take the consequences of it.
9 MS McMURREY: Okay. I do not believe he is answering my
11 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: He is answering what he understood you
13 MS McMURREY: Okay. Mr Babic, you claimed when you were
14 arrested that the Croatian and Muslim forces beat you
15 severely. Is that what you testified to?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. You stated you lost your teeth, you were covered with
18 blood, etc, etc?
19 A. Yes, yes.
20 Q. And they took you into a separate room, did they not?
21 In your statement you said there were two Muslim women
22 and about 15 HOS soldiers; is that correct?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. In fact, you know a man named -- pardon my
25 pronunciation; I may have to spell it -- Zeljko Mlikota?
1 It is M-L-I-K-O-T-A.
2 A. That is how I remember. I knew him so I recognised him.
3 Q. You knew he was a Croatian, did you not?
4 A. Yes, I believe I knew that.
5 Q. This Croatian man is the one who made you drink three
6 glasses of his urine, did he not?
7 A. Yes, and two others.
8 Q. Yes. Then he also watched while two women undid your
9 pants, took out pincers and tongs and with a razor blade
10 were about to cut your penis off, did he not?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. In fact, it was the Muslim Mithat Pirkic that made them
13 stop, was it not?
14 A. I do not know who was the starter. Maybe it was
15 Midhat. I was lost at that time. I did not know. I do
16 not know how long it went on. I do not know the exact
17 number. I had given you at that point.
18 Q. Well, Mr Babic, in your statement from February 20th,
19 1996 you stated that at that point Mithat Pirkic told
20 them to stop, did you not?
21 A. Yes. Whenever I was beaten, he would say "stop". He
22 said "stop".
23 Q. Thank you.
24 A. In the end he said: "It has been enough of abuse."
25 Q. You know another Croat named Ivica Buric, do you not?
1 A. No, I didn't know this Ivica Buric, not at all. I do
2 not remember that. There has been five years and I have
3 forgotten quite a bit. I do not recall.
4 Q. So you cannot remember another Croatian soldier named
5 Josic Aga?
6 A. No. He was not there. I know him. He is a neighbour
7 from my village. That one I know. He is a Croat and he
8 was not there at all. Aga Josic, no, he was not there.
9 Q. He was not there at the arrest but you did see --
10 A. No, he was not there.
11 Q. You saw him at Celebici during your stay there, did you
13 A. No.
14 Q. You did say military police and HVO soldiers were at the
15 Celebici while you were there, did you not?
16 A. Can you repeat this?
17 Q. While you were at Celebici, you did see other soldiers
18 other than the TO? You saw HVO soldiers and the
19 military police present at Celebici, did you not?
20 A. Please, I have been sick. I was not interested in
21 anything. What I could see, there were camouflage
22 uniforms and that is all I remember. How many, who they
23 were ...
24 Q. Okay. When you finally arrived at Musala in Konjic you
25 and Slobodan Babic were interviewed by three
1 investigators, were you not?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. You were taken out and in your statement on Wednesday
4 you said that these investigators asked you a lot of
5 stupid questions. Did you not say that?
6 A. Not stupid. Some questions, not stupid questions. That
7 is not what I said. Maybe I was not properly
9 Q. Well, I believe the record says that you called them
10 "stupid questions". I just wanted to ask you: the
11 stupid questions were things like "were you a member of
12 the SDS and did you have a weapon?", were they not?
13 A. No. No. Do not. Please, lady, do not misrepresent
14 that. Those were not stupid questions. Those were the
15 questions whether I was a SDS member, and I said "yes".
16 They were not stupid people. That is not what I said.
17 I do not know who said that.
18 Q. In fact, this was an investigative group made up of
19 Croats, Muslims and people from the military police, was
20 it not?
21 A. I do not know who it was composed of.
22 Q. And this investigation by a joint committee was the
23 proper procedure under the circumstances, was it not?
24 A. I do not understand you exactly. Could you repeat,
1 Q. During the circumstances when there has been war and
2 armed conflict and detainees are brought in, the proper
3 procedure would be that an investigative group would
4 come in and interview the detainees to see what category
5 they would fit in. That is a proper procedure under
6 these circumstances, is it not?
7 A. I was called out once and then I came out and I do not
8 know who it was. They asked me what weapons I had. I
9 answered and that took about five minutes, not more.
10 Then I went back. Then others were brought out, and I
11 was never brought out again, so I do not know what else
12 to say about that.
13 Q. I would like to go back and refer to page 267 of the
14 transcript from Wednesday, line 225:
15 "I was ordered to sit in the corner. Then they
16 asked me some stupid questions like did I vote for the
18 That is what you said on Wednesday, was it not?
19 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Actually, he had answered that "that
20 is not how I said that".
21 MS McMURREY: For impeachment purposes he said he did not
22 say it and the record is clear that he did.
23 A. No. No. Please. Wherever I was asked whether I was a
24 member of SDS, I always said I was.
25 MS McMURREY: Okay. All right. After you were interviewed
1 at Musala, you were then taken to a place called Radava,
2 were you not?
3 A. Yes, but that was the next day, on 23rd in the evening,
4 23rd May.
5 Q. You and Slobodan Babic were both taken to this Radava,
6 were you not?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. You were held there for two days, were you not?
9 A. No. That is not true. We were there about half an hour
10 in this hotel, about half an hour. That is what I said
11 on Wednesday and also on 26th I said -- of 1992 I said
12 the same thing.
13 Q. When you were at Radava you also --
14 A. Because if you had not understood me, two days later I
15 saw Slobodan Babic in number 22. That is wrong.
16 Q. Well, you said you were taken to Radava on 23rd; is that
18 A. Yes, in the evening, yes.
19 Q. Well, you also stated that you reached Celebici on 23rd?
20 A. We spent the night -- the 23rd, yes. Let me tell you.
21 On 22nd in the evening we were brought to Musala in the
22 sports centre. We spent the night there. On 23rd we
23 came to Radava, to the hotel, and then -- that is what I
24 talked about on Wednesday. From Radava on 23rd in the
25 evening I went to the number 22 in Celebici. So please
1 do not take me back and forth.
2 Q. Mr Babic, what you did testify to is while you were at
3 Radava is when you and Slobodan Babic were beaten the
4 most severely; is that correct?
5 A. Yes. As soon as we walked in there were three or four
6 of them. One had a foot bandaged. I do not know what
7 had happened to his foot.
8 Q. Now, when you say you were beaten the most severely at
9 Radava, what you also testified to was that Slobodan
10 Babic received his mortal wounds at Radava, not at
11 Celebici. Is that not correct?
12 A. No. I stated that Slobodan Babic, I did not see him
13 when we left the hotel Radava. I got on to the truck
14 and I do not recall -- I do not recall anything about
15 Slobodan Babic. I know that two days later I saw him in
16 the number 22 in Celebici and he was very bad, and I
17 heard that he had been beaten and then for two days that
18 he had died or something, but they all brought him. He
19 had not died, and they brought him to number 22. That
20 is what I heard, and then he was there five, six or
21 eight days, and then they took from Celebici and I never
22 heard from him again. That is what I said.
23 Q. I would just like to clarify for the tribunal that in
24 your statement of February 20th, 1996 you said that when
25 Mr Slobodan Babic had been brought to Celebici he had
1 already been tortured. He had lost his sight.
2 Apparently lost his hearing?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. His arm was all mutilated. His throat was all mutilated
5 and your last statement in the paragraph?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Is this happened in Radava?
8 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Actually he appears to be confirming
10 A. I do not know about Radava. I do not know where it
11 happened, whether it was in Radava, but I never saw him,
12 but do not say what I have not said. I didn't say his
13 eyes were massacred or something. He could not see. I
14 also said about his mouth, that it was severely
15 wounded. That is what I saw.
16 Q. Is it your testimony today that you are claiming that
17 this did not happen at Radava?
18 A. I do not know where it happened, whether it was in
19 Radava or where. That I do not know.
20 Q. May I approach --
21 A. Only I heard.
22 Q. May I approach the witness?
23 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: If you are cross-examining, I have
24 told you that you are cross-examining and you take the
1 A. Can I say something?
2 MS McMURREY: I just want him to see in his prior sworn
3 statement --
4 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Put that to him.
5 MS McMURREY: In your prior sworn statement, the last
6 sentence on the second paragraph -- I mean, the first
7 paragraph of the second page you stated:
8 "This happened in Radava".
9 Were you lying then or are you lying now?
10 MR TURONE: I object to calling the witness a liar, your
12 MS McMURREY: Were you telling the truth then or are you
13 telling the truth now?
14 A. I had heard that this is what happened at Radava, that
15 he got these wounds at Radava. After I left the prison,
16 I was sitting with Dr Petko Grubac, and he told me this
17 happened to Slobodan somewhere in the school in Konjic.
18 Petko Grubac knows that precisely.
19 Q. My only last question concerning Slobodan Babic is his
20 injuries which caused his death happened before he
21 reached Celebici, did they not?
22 A. I do not know. He came just like me, all in blood,
23 covered in blood and beaten up from Radava, same as I
24 was, and after that I really do not know what happened
25 to him, how it all happened that he came there all
1 beaten up and what happened. I really do not know
3 Q. Okay. Thank you. You were held in building number 22
4 when you first arrived at Celebici, were you not?
5 A. Yes, yes.
6 Q. And that is a small building behind the main building
7 when you come into the gate, is it not?
8 A. Please, that was -- that was a compound that was built
9 by the Yugoslav army. I had never been there before.
10 It was night and I was put in number 22. I know that it
11 was rectangular. One side was longer than the other. I
12 do not know how many there were in there. I do not
13 recall much. I remember Slobodan. I remember seeing
14 him two days later. I do not know whether he had been
15 at Radava, but two days later I saw him. He was in a
16 very bad shape. He was wounded, and I don't recall
17 anything else.
18 Q. Mr Babic, when you were held in building number 22, it
19 was not an infirmary at that time, was it?
20 A. I do not know. I really do not know.
21 Q. It was merely a place for the detainees to be held until
22 their status was determined by the investigators, was it
24 A. I do not know anything about that.
25 Q. In fact, you were held there in number 22 until you had
1 your second meeting with the investigative group;
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. And so you went through the same procedure again, where
5 an investigative body came and asked you questions to
6 determine what your status was at the camp; is that
8 A. I didn't know what my status was.
9 Q. They were trying to determine that?
10 A. I was not told anything. I do not know anything about
12 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: The entire chamber will rise now and
13 reassemble at 11.30.
14 MS McMURREY: Your Honour --
15 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: You can continue that
17 MS McMURREY: I have one question to ask before the break.
18 We have a doctor here who would like to look at
19 Mr Babic's -- I am sorry. I would like to ask
20 permission to have our doctor look at the witness during
21 the break.
22 (Short break)
24 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Get the witness in so we will continue
25 with the cross-examination.
1 MS McMURREY: Your Honour, if I may just take up a little
2 housekeeping matter before we proceed, I have a Dutch
3 doctor, Dr de Kroot outside. I have asked him to come
4 to examine the ankle of Mr Babic. The prosecution is
5 opposed to the examination so I am asking the court if
6 there is some way that they can resolve this. Dr de
7 Kroot has surgery set in 30 minutes at the hospital, so
8 he either has to do it immediately or he is available
9 after 6 o'clock today, if the witness could be made
10 available for examination at that time.
11 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Actually I do not know the background
12 for this examination, because if it is coming through
13 the cross-examination, the relevant background for
14 questioning injury should have been laid, and I have not
15 heard of any question questioning the background of
16 whatever injury that has been complained of.
17 MS McMURREY: I will be getting to the questioning about
18 his injury, but on direct examination he testified about
19 his injury and showed the defence counsel, and there are
20 no medical records, and there is no other documentation
21 about the injury. So eventually it is going to become
22 mandatory to have some kind of medical examination of
23 Mr Babic. I was just trying to save judicial economy
24 and to save poor Dr de Kroot --
25 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: I would not say it is poor
1 cross-examination, but if there is no evidence of
2 injury, no medical evidence of anything that has
3 happened to him, what is your business?
4 MS McMURREY: Your Honour, there are no medical records,
5 but he showed his leg in the court room. I would just
6 like a doctor to determine whether that is a burn scar
7 or a bruise, or the possible age of his injury.
8 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Please let us get the witness in:
9 (Witness returned to court)
10 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Please remind him he is still on his
12 THE REGISTRAR: Mr Babic, I would like to remind you that
13 you are still under oath.
14 MS McMURREY: May it please the court.
15 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Yes, you can start.
16 MS McMURREY: Mr Babic, I believe when we left off that I
17 was questioning you about building number 22. In
18 building number 22 in your statement of February 20th
19 1996 you are claimed that you said to the prosecution
20 that you and 100 other Serbs were held in that room for
21 20 something days without urinating, did you not?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. And that room is about 2 metres by 2 metres, is it not?
24 A. No. When I made my statement, the judge asked me: "Do
25 you know how big that room is, how long, how wide it
1 is? Tell me how many people there were. Tell me." I
2 said: "I do not know. How do I know? I didn't count
3 them, but there were lots of us. There was no room to
4 sit down. I do not know how many people were there."
5 That is what I said and I still do not know.
6 Q. I believe my question for you was the room was 2 metres
7 by 2 metres, was it not?
8 A. I do not know I am telling you. Later on --
9 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: She wants to get the size of the
10 room. That is why she's asking?
11 A. I cannot remember. I cannot.
12 MS McMURREY: In your statement --
13 A. Please allow me to say I thought it was maybe 5 by 4,
14 but I really do not know.
15 Q. In your statement on February 20th 1996 you told the
16 interpreter and the prosecution that the room was about
17 2 metres by 2 metres, did you not?
18 A. Yes, I maybe said that, but I said: "I do not know. I
19 do not know." Then he insisted and I said: "I do not
20 know; I do not know. I cannot remember."
21 Q. Now on Wednesday of last week you had a severe loss of
22 memory from the time that you made your statement on
23 February 26th, did you not?
24 MR TURONE: Objection, your Honour.
25 MS McMURREY: Excuse me. What was the objection, so that I
1 may respond?
2 MR TURONE: This is a question aiming at confusing the
4 MS McMURREY: Your Honour, this is cross-examination, and
5 he said on Wednesday that:
6 "I can no longer remember anything about the
8 His claim was:
9 "I cannot remember anything. I was lost. I
10 remember I was there. I simply do not know."
11 That is contrary to what he said on February 20th,
12 1996. That is the purpose of the question.
13 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: What is your question now?
14 MS McMURREY: The question is that he had a severe loss of
15 memory between February 20th, 1996 and last Wednesday.
16 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: That is a very technical question and
17 can only be addressed to a specialist, not this
19 MS McMURREY: Okay. Your witness on Wednesday was quite
20 different from your statement that you made on February
21 20th, 1996, was it not?
22 A. I do not know. Five years has gone by. I have
23 forgotten a lot of it. I know what I saw and that is
24 what I said, and I cannot answer any other questions.
25 Q. In fact, on 20th you said there were 100 Serbs in the
1 building and on Wednesday you said merely that it was
2 densely populated, did you not?
3 A. I said on 26th February too that I didn't know how many
4 people there were. The judge told me: "Give us an
5 approximation", and I said: "I do not know. It looked
6 to me as if there were 500. How do I know how many
7 there were. I had lost consciousness then and my memory
8 and everything." I cannot answer that question.
9 Q. On 20th February 1996 you never mentioned that you lost
10 consciousness or that you were having a memory problem
11 or that you were sick, did you?
12 A. No, I didn't. I didn't mention it.
13 Q. In fact, what you are saying here is that the statement
14 that you made on February 19th 1996 is not accurate; is
15 that what you are saying?
16 A. No, I won't say that. I will never say that; it is not
17 correct. I just said that I couldn't remember. I do
18 not know enough about 22, how many prisoners there were
19 inside. How do I know? I was lost. I was sick at the
20 time, and I can't say any more than I have said. Also
21 on 26th February 1996, when I answered questions I
22 remember that I was put in that room as soon as I got
23 there, and I do not remember anything else.
24 Q. On February --
25 A. In another five years I'll probably forget everything.
1 Q. On February 20th 1996 you never told the judge or you
2 never reflected in your signed statement that you
3 couldn't remember anything, did you?
4 A. No, I didn't say. That is true.
5 Q. In fact, that has only come up since your testifying in
6 this court room, has it not?
7 A. I could have said that on 26th February, when I was
8 making my statement. I saw that the judge wanted to
9 make it a bit shorter, to hurry me up a little, and that
10 is how it came about.
11 Q. In fact, you were very specific in your statement on
12 February 20th, 1996, were you not?
13 A. Yes, I was specific, yes.
14 Q. You did not have a watch or anything and you said you
15 were in that room for exactly 22 days and you had never
16 gone to the toilet. Is that not correct?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. You also said in your statement that you saw a pump in
19 building number 22. Immediately after that you said you
20 did not know what kind of machine it was. Did you not?
21 A. As far as I was able to tell, it was some kind of a pump
22 or a machine. I do not know. What I said was what I
23 thought it was when I saw it. Whether it was a pump or
24 a machine, I saw some fire hoses. That is as far as I
25 can remember, nothing more. Whether it was a pump or a
1 machine, I really do not know. Do not ask me that. I
2 cannot give you an answer.
3 Q. You also said that you were specifically held in
4 building 22 for 22 days and that you never even went
5 outside for the toilet?
6 MR TURONE: Objection, your Honour. The statement done in
7 February 1996 speaks for itself. So defence counsel may
8 introduce it, if she wants, but asking the witness to
9 characterise that statement is improper, according to
10 the opinion of the prosecution, improper and unfair to
11 the witness. Thank you, your Honour.
12 MS McMURREY: May I respond?
13 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Yes, you can.
14 MS McMURREY: It is a prior sworn statement by the witness
15 and as a prior sworn statement the defence --
16 MR TURONE: Objection, your Honour. This is not a sworn
18 JUDGE JAN: Is it the statement or not of the witness?
19 MR TURONE: It is a statement done in front of the
20 prosecuting investigator by the witness but not under
22 JUDGE JAN: If there are any contradictions between the two
23 statements, how can she use the contradictions unless
24 she can address the witness with those statements?
25 MR TURONE: We have no objection to introducing this
1 statement into the court. This would be probably a
2 clear way of acting, your Honour.
3 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: May I advise counsel for the defence?
4 If you intend to contradict this witness with a
5 statement made outside these proceedings, you should
6 tell that. That is the only way you can bring both of
7 them into conflict, but using them outside the
8 proceedings will not disclose this.
9 MS McMURREY: Your Honour, this witness signed each and
10 every page of this statement. Also it is witnessed and
11 acknowledged that he received it in his language. The
12 statement was voluntarily given. It was read back to
13 him in his name and he --
14 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: But it is not evidence in these
16 MS McMURREY: Your Honour, I am not offering it -- I am
17 offering it for impeachment purposes only.
18 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Then it has to be part of the
20 MS McMURREY: Well, I am only aware of the rules of
21 evidence in my country, and I am asking the court -- I
22 think in Great Britain and in the United States and
23 under most Common Law countries a prior sworn statement
24 can be used for impeachment purposes. I do not have the
25 obligation to admit it into evidence. If the
1 prosecution chooses to, then they should.
2 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: You have to, because you cannot take
3 evidence outside the proceedings to contradict the
4 proceedings itself.
5 JUDGE JAN: But you will have to produce the statement
6 after the cross-examination is over as part of the
8 A. I would be happy to do that after this is over. If the
9 court would like to follow along, I would be happy. I
10 have no other copy except my marked on copy, but if you
11 would like. I would like the court to be also aware of
12 his contradictions in his two statements. If I had
13 another copy, I would provide it for you right now. If
14 I get my hands on a clean copy, I will certainly tender
15 it to the court for the record.
16 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Proceed as you like. My experience is
17 firstly the background about the discrepancy between
18 what he has said here and what you have in his
19 extra-judicial statement and then you put that
20 extra-judicial statement in as the evidence. Then you
21 can cross-examine on it. It appears you are doing it in
22 the wrong way round, because now you are telling us
23 things which happened outside the proceedings.
24 MS McMURREY: Your Honour, I will be happy to comply with
25 the request of this court. It is unfamiliar to me, but
1 I have no objections to the court's request, and if you
2 will just allow me to cross-examine from the statement,
3 I will offer it --
4 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: I did not interrupt you. You were
5 cross-examining him on what he said outside here.
6 MS McMURREY: I will be happy to comply with the court's
7 request. I do not think you want my marked-up copy. I
8 will try to provide a clean copy for you. Okay. May I
10 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: You can carry on as best as you can.
11 MS McMURREY: I try to do that all the time. Thank you.
12 Mr Babic, you said that you were held in building
13 number 22 for 22 days without going outside, and are you
14 telling this tribunal that you did not count how many
15 people were in the building with you?
16 A. I'll tell you that I said that I do not know how many
17 people were in that room. I know that there was little
18 water, little food. I couldn't eat. So about 22 days I
19 didn't go out.
20 Q. My question was: you mean you did not count the people
21 in a 2 by 2 metre room with you for 22 days?
22 A. No, I didn't count.
23 Q. Thank you. Now Mr Turone also asked you if you could
24 recognise the building, the Celebici, and you told
25 Mr Turone that you could not; is that correct?
1 A. No. No.
2 Q. I am sorry. You told Mr Turone that you could not
3 recognise them; is that right?
4 A. Yes, that is what I said.
5 Q. But the fact is you have seen the Celebici barracks
6 before, have you not, because you can see them from your
7 village, can you not?
8 A. I could see them, yes. I saw them. I know there was a
9 railway line, and below the railway line there was a
10 road, but I never went there, nor do I know what it
11 looked like. I came there by night and I didn't look
12 around. I just looked in front of me. I was not
13 interested in anything any more.
14 Q. That Celebici barracks has been there for many years,
15 has it not?
16 A. I know that the building was built by the Yugoslav
17 Army. I do not know when, how many years before the
18 war. I do not know.
19 Q. Your Honours, I am kind of clumsy at using these tools
20 that this court has, but I have a drawing on the ELMO
21 and I do not know how to turn it on. Could I ask
22 somebody to assist me with that for the next question?
23 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Whose drawing is this?
24 MS McMURREY: Your Honour, I am going to ask him to
25 identify if it is an accurate drawing of something -- of
1 the inside of hangar 6, if he can identify it.
2 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: You want to ask this witness to tell
3 you if your own drawing is accurate?
4 MS McMURREY: I believe it is accurate, but I would like
5 for him to authenticate it. Could I ask the witness to
6 stand and approach the drawing?
7 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Oh, yes.
8 MS McMURREY: Mr Babic, would you look at the drawing that
9 is right in front of you? I would like you to approach
10 the original that is over there, because I want you to
11 put a mark on it, if possible. Does this drawing
12 accurately reflect the inside of hangar number 6 when
13 you were there?
14 A. I can remember a little bit but I cannot tell from this
15 drawing. I do not know whether it is a drawing of the
16 hangar. I know there was an entrance and there were
17 four rows of prisoners, two round the edges and two in
18 the middle. If that is that building, but I do not
20 Q. The red lines, do they reflect where the prisoners were
21 sitting in hangar number 6, around the edges with two
22 lines in the middle; is that correct?
23 A. I cannot see the prisoners, but according to these
24 lines, yes, we did sit one next to another and then the
25 second row and a third row. We did sit one by one.
1 Q. On your February 20th, 1996 statement you stated that
2 you sat the sixth place in the second row, and on
3 Wednesday you said you were --
4 A. The third row.
5 Q. Okay. On Wednesday you said you were seated the sixth
6 place in the third row. Which one was it?
7 A. In the third row, here somewhere. I was sixth.
8 Q. Mr Babic, could you take that pink marker and just mark
9 on that drawing to your right where you were seated for
10 months in hangar 6?
11 A. I cannot tell looking at this map, but here somewhere
12 (indicating). I was in the third row, sixth from the
14 Q. I am just asking you to estimate but if you could --
15 A. I cannot tell you on this map. I cannot say. This is
16 all very rough, because I do not know.
17 Q. I do not have --
18 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Do you not think that is conclusive?
19 A. I was here somewhere (indicating).
20 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: He says he cannot say. Is that not
21 sufficient for his opinion?
22 MS McMURREY: Your Honour, I was just going to ask him to
23 estimate in row three where he sat. He was there for
24 several months and he had an assigned seat.
25 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: That was your question and he says he
1 cannot say. That was what he said.
2 MS McMURREY: Is that true, Mr Babic? You cannot estimate
3 where you were sitting in row three?
4 A. No. No, I cannot tell you exactly.
5 Q. I am not asking exactly. Can you just estimate?
6 A. Gentlemen, I cannot.
7 Q. Well, go ahead and sit down then and we will skip the
8 interior of the hangar number 6. You do know that
9 Milovan Kuljanin, or Mitke, sat close to you, did he
11 A. I do not know. I know some of my neighbours who were
12 sitting next to me, close to me.
13 Q. You do not know whether Zeljko Klimenta sat next to you
14 either or close?
15 A. Zeljko Klimenta was sitting across from me. Branko
16 Gotovac; then Branko, son of Danilo; Ranko Tomic; Dragan
17 Tomic; Dobrivoje Ivkovic; then me; then Mijo Gotovac.
18 That I remember.
19 Q. You do not remember Milovan Kuljanin, Mici?
20 A. I do not remember.
21 Q. Let me ask you about the hangar. You were inside the
22 hangar most of the time, were you not?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. And there was --
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. There was a pan situated in the hangar in the evenings
2 for your toilet habits; is that correct?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. And during the day you were taken out in groups to use
5 the toilet outside hangar 6, were you not?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. And during the day that can that you used at night was
8 taken out and washed out, was it not?
9 A. Sometimes it was washed; sometimes it wasn't. Somebody
10 was on duty, Dragoslav Kujundzic, called Gago, and the
11 guard would call him out in the morning. He would go
12 out and I do not know what he would do. Then Gago would
13 come back and he would order individuals to take out the
14 bucket and to bring it back in. Sometimes during the
15 day people urinated there, because we were taken out
16 only once during the day, around 3 o'clock.
17 Q. Let me ask you also: in hangar number 6 there are
18 windows around the very top of the hangar, are there
19 not, and they are about 3 metres off the ground, are
20 they not?
21 A. As far as I can remember, there was some glass up there,
22 but I cannot remember exactly. I just know there was an
23 iron roof structure. It was very hot in those days.
24 Q. If you were standing outside of hangar 6, facing it, the
25 only door that was used into hangar 6 was a small door
1 to the lower right; is that correct?
2 A. I know there was a door in the corner somehow, towards
3 the -- from the outside it was to the right. They were
4 steel. How big they were I do not know. Behind that
5 door was the bucket.
6 Q. There were large hangar doors that were never opened
7 while you were there, were they?
8 A. I do not know.
9 Q. On the side of hangar number 6 that the door was on,
10 considered the front of hangar 6, there were no holes in
11 the walls, were there?
12 A. I cannot remember.
13 Q. You were sitting in the middle, but as far as you can
14 remember, around the edges of the hangar the hangar
15 facility, the concrete around the bottom was sealed, so
16 you could not get air and you could not stick your hand
17 out the bottom of the hangar, could you?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. When you went out to --
20 A. Yes, you are right. What you are saying is correct.
21 Q. They had set up around the back --
22 A. It was all sealed, closed in.
23 Q. Thank you. Around the back of hangar number 6 to the
24 right they had set up some temporary toilet facilities
25 for you, did they not?
2 A. Yes, I remember there were such toilets at the
3 beginning. Later on there weren't any.
4 Q. They took them away. Is that what you are saying?
5 A. I do not know. About 15 metres from the hangar the
6 prisoners went to dig out a septic tank. There was a
7 plank across that pit and they would take us out, three
8 or four at a time, to stand on that plank to use the
9 toilet. Some soldiers from the road would fire at us,
10 and I think some people were complaining to Esad Delic,
11 but this did not last long. This went on for a long
13 Q. Excuse me, your Honour. I asked him if they had taken
14 the toilet facilities away. I would hope he would just
15 answer the question.
16 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Please answer the question directly.
17 A. I do not know whether they removed the toilet. I do not
18 know. I don't remember. I went out very rarely. I do
19 not know. I don't remember.
20 Q. Mr Babic, in the front of hangar number 6 there was a
21 long hose with water, was there not?
22 A. I don't remember.
23 Q. I want to go to Branko Gotovac. You have no personal
24 knowledge about what happened to him, do you?
25 A. On Wednesday I talked about Branko Gotovac. I know what
1 happened. I told you. They said some journalists would
2 be coming to number 6 and they came, some black people.
3 I still do not know who they were. They talked for a
4 while and they picked Branko Gotovac. He was first in
5 line. They asked him something. I do not know what.
6 Branko came back to his place. Then the journalists
8 Esad Landzo picked out Branko Gotovac and took him
9 out. What he did to him I do not know. I just remember
10 when he brought him back he fell. He was not
11 conscious. There was Branko Gligorevic, who was a
12 nurse, and somebody used the spoon to pull out his
13 tongue. Then he was taken away to the infirmary. He
14 have suffered a lot and Branko survived.
15 Q. Now you have no personal knowledge as to whether the
16 seizure -- the problem that Branko Gotovac had was a
17 heart attack or an attack of diabetes. You have no
18 personal knowledge about why he was sick, do you? You
19 are only speculating. You have no personal knowledge of
20 what happened to Branko Gotovac, do you?
21 A. When he came back, he said that his stomach had
22 collapsed from beatings and he was complaining of pain
23 all over his body. He complained about it.
24 Q. When he complained that he was ill, he was taken to the
25 infirmary and received proper medical attention, did he
2 A. I do not know. I don't remember.
3 Q. Well, I believe you stated he went to the infirmary and
4 he came back recovered. Is that not correct?
5 A. Yes. Yes.
6 Q. You talked also in your --
7 A. It is true. How he recovered I do not know. He knows
8 best. He will tell you.
9 Q. Now you stated on Wednesday -- you talked about
10 Mr Landzo hitting you at the door of the hangar, did you
11 not, but it would be a surprise to you to know that
12 there are no other witnesses that remember that
13 incident, if you were hit at the door of hangar number
14 6. Would that surprise you?
15 A. I do not know which witnesses you will have. I just
16 know what he did to me.
17 Q. Now, going to Bosko Samoukovic, the only information you
18 have about what may or may not have happened to Bosko
19 Samoukovic is what you have heard from other people, is
20 it not?
21 A. No. I was an eye witness to that. I saw that.
22 Q. What you are saying is you saw Mr Landzo hit him in the
23 back, but that is all you saw, is it not?
24 A. Yes. I saw that and I -- I can always testify to that.
25 Q. Now, Scepo Gotovac, you said that you heard -- they took
1 him outside and that you sat there and you counted 450
2 blows; is that correct?
3 A. Yes. I started counting. I counted to about 160 and
4 then I stopped there and then after that I couldn't
5 count any more. That was the first time. The second
6 time I did not count at all.
7 Q. But in your statement on February 20th you claimed that
8 you counted 450 blows, did you not?
9 A. I don't remember.
10 Q. As a matter of fact, you have no idea who, if anyone,
11 was hitting Scepo Gotovac, do you, because that was
12 outside the hangar, was it not?
13 A. I know. I know who hit him. I know who took him out
14 and who beat him.
15 Q. You may know --
16 A. I was an eye witness, because I know the people.
17 Q. Well, you may know who took him out of the hangar and
18 you may know who brought him back in the hangar, but you
19 do not know who was hitting him, if he was hit, outside
20 the hangar, do you?
21 A. I know who took him out. One was Adem Cosic was holding
22 a knife to his throat, and Hazim Delic and Esad Landzo
23 and Adem Cosic, they took him out and he was beaten
24 there. I heard the cries.
25 Q. You do not know who beat him outside the hangar, do
1 you? You did not see this. You did not witness it.
2 All you can do is speculate; right?
3 A. No, I did not see, but who else but them would have beat
4 him? Others will speak of that. They will prove it.
5 Q. Mr Babic, that is called speculation.
6 A. They took him out to beat him. That is what they did.
7 Q. That is called speculation also. You do not know what
8 their purpose was for taking him out. You could not
9 read their minds, could you?
10 A. I do not know. I only saw when they took him out and
11 when they brought him back. That was the first time.
12 The second time he was brought back in he was dead and
13 in the morning -- he spent the night there and in the
14 morning they took him out.
15 Q. Let us go to the Zeljko Klimenta. You have no personal
16 knowledge about what happened to Zeljko Klimenta, do
18 A. I said on Wednesday at the end of July or in early
19 August there was Kujundzic Dragoslav. His nickname was
20 Drago and the guard called out this Drago and ten
21 minutes later they called out Zeljko Klimenta, called
22 Keljo, to take coffee with them. Zeljko went out and
23 about ten minutes later there was a gunshot, and this
24 Drago came back and he said Zeljko was killed and he was
25 crying, and I do not know who did it, who killed him.
1 Q. You know that the guard that had the bullet discharge,
2 you know that was an accident and the guard was crying,
3 did you not?
4 A. I do not know anything about that.
5 Q. So if Milovan Kuljanin stated he knew it was an accident
6 and the guard came in crying, would he be lying?
7 A. I have nothing against that. Whatever Milovan says I do
8 not know but this is what I know.
9 Q. Now Cedo Avramovic, he died of natural causes. He died
10 of a heart attack, did he not, in the middle of the
12 A. Maybe. I do not know.
13 Q. Cedo Avramovic, you have no personal knowledge what
14 happened to him. It happened -- whatever happened to
15 him happened outside the hangar, and it happened at
16 night, and you did not see anything, did you, only what
17 you have heard?
18 A. Yes. Yes. I know that Cedo disappeared. That is what
19 I know. Then I never heard about him, but he was
20 beaten. Esad Landzo beat him about two days. Cedo
21 cried and I do not know when Cedo left or anything. I
22 do not know.
23 Q. He said he does not know what happened to him and then
24 goes in and says what he heard?
25 A. I do not know. I do not know.
1 Q. You said you have no personal knowledge on that. Now, I
2 want to go to your statement about the incident that you
3 have talked about with Esad Landzo. Your statement on
4 Wednesday was that Esad Landzo, Hazim Delic, took you
5 out of the hangar, put a mask over your eyes and beat
6 you. Did you say that?
7 A. Yes, yes.
8 Q. Now if someone takes you out and puts a mask over your
9 eyes, the truth is you do not know who beat you, do you?
10 A. When they took off the mask, then I saw them. I was
11 lying down and I saw them.
12 Q. Thank you. Let me ask you --
13 A. I do not know who else it could have been.
14 Q. Mr Babic, do you know who Zenga is?
15 A. We did not know each other. He was a child to me but I
16 found out in number 6 I knew his father very well.
17 Q. Is there another name for Zenga? Who is it you think
18 Zenga is?
19 A. Esad Landzo was called Zenga. That is how they called
21 Q. Do you know where that name comes from?
22 A. I do not know. I know that the Landzos were from the
23 Glavaticevo village. That is where his father lived and
24 his father had other children and he worked with me in a
25 ship rent company in Konjic. We would get together. We
1 would smoke together. He was a quiet man, a fine man.
2 I do not know -- I said I didn't know him before I was
3 in number 6 in Celebici.
4 Q. You testified on Wednesday that after the mask was taken
5 off you went back to the hangar and that Esad Landzo
6 beat you again in the door of the hangar; is that
8 A. Yes, yes.
9 Q. Would it surprise you to know that no other witnesses
10 testified to your being beaten in front of them by Esad
12 A. I do not know that. I just know what happened to me and
13 I know who beat me, who took me out and who brought me
14 back, and beat me at the door and then I dropped to the
15 floor and I was in a coma and I do not know -- did not
16 know about myself or anything. Then later, when I could
17 walk again, two days later when Esad Landzo took me out
18 to the same place, I lay down on the concrete and he
19 made me pull up the cuff.
20 Then in the right hand he held a little bottle,
21 small bottle. He said: "Do you know what this is?" I
22 said: "I do not know." I said: "Young man, I am not
23 guilty of anything." Then he poured it on my right leg
24 and I do not know if he was going to light it with a
25 lighter or with a match, and then he lit it and then I
1 started jerking it and it was a short time. Then he had
2 something there that he poured over me and then he said
3 to "get up". I got up and then he hit me about twice.
4 He opened the door. There was a plank. He removed it.
5 I walked in. Then later I had a bad burn and I had
6 yellow blisters. It was hurting a lot. All that is
7 true. Later I could not walk and Hazim Delic knows
8 about that and Dragan Povic also knows about that. He
9 was helping me walk out and then I came back.
10 Q. Are you finished, Mr Babic?
11 A. Yes, I am finished. If there is anything else about
12 number 6, tell me, or I would like to finish here.
13 Q. Mr Babic, the story that you just told this tribunal is
14 not what you said on February 20th 1996, is it?
15 A. Please allow me, it has been five years. In another
16 five years I will forget everything except for the
17 consequences of my wounds. One forgets.
18 Q. I would just like to bring to your attention that on
19 February 20th you said that Esad Landzo took you off and
20 ordered you to take off your pants and that he ripped
21 your pants off with a knife and you were standing there
23 A. It was not on 20th February. It wasn't on 20th
25 Q. I am sorry. Your Honours. Could he ask him to let me
1 finish the question? It is very difficult for the
2 interpreters I know when we are overlapping like that?
3 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Yes. He was merely correcting your
5 A. Gentlemen, please, it wasn't 20th February. It was 20th
6 -- around 20th July 1992.
7 Q. Okay. I am sorry. I am referring to your statement
8 that you made on February 20th 1996. In that statement
9 you stated that Mr Landzo ripped your pants off with a
10 knife and you were standing there naked. Did you or did
11 you not?
12 A. With a knife, yes, yes, yes. Yes, it's true. I cannot
13 recall everything, but it's true.
14 Q. That is not what you said in the court Wednesday or
15 today, is it? You said that Mr Landzo told you to pull
16 your pants' legs up, did you not?
17 A. Gentlemen, I have forgotten these things. I do not know
18 how much I am forgetting here.
19 Q. In fact, there is a great difference between ripping
20 your pants off with a knife and standing there naked
21 and, as you said on Wednesday:
22 "He asked me to lift my trouser legs."
23 That is quite a discrepancy, is it not, Mr Babic?
24 A. Yes, yes, but I did not say nowhere, not in the
25 statement of 26th February, that Esad Landzo ever took
1 my pants off. That is not what I said. I only said
2 about the leg. It is a leg, the pant leg, and my leg.
3 Sejo was not taking off my pants.
4 Q. The court will have this in your possession after your
5 testimony so if you said:
6 "I was standing there naked",
7 then you were lying, were you not?
8 MR TURONE: Objection, your Honour. I object to calling
9 the witness a liar.
10 MS McMURREY: Your Honours and Mr Babic, I apologise.
11 A. That is not what I said. That is not what I said.
12 MS McMURREY: You would not be telling the truth on
13 February 20th if you said you were standing there naked,
14 would you?
15 A. As I was speaking on Wednesday, that is how I had spoken
16 on the 26th February.
17 Q. So you are saying that you never said that you were
18 standing there naked; is that correct?
19 A. Where? Where? I was not able to understand you.
20 Q. Then you also -- do you want me to repeat the question,
21 Mr Babic?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. So you are saying that you never said on February 20th
24 1996 that you were standing there naked?
25 A. No.
1 Q. Okay. Then you also say that he poured petrol on your
2 leg and set it on fire and you were burning for 20
3 seconds. That is what you said on February 20th, is it
5 A. Yes. Whether it was around 20, whether it was around
6 20, maybe 10, I do not know. It was a short time. I
7 couldn't determine the exact time, whether it was
8 shorter. I do not know. But I saw my leg burning and
9 it hurt. I do not know how long it went on, but I think
10 it went on for a short time --
11 Q. Then you also said on Wednesday --
12 A. -- proof.
13 Q. You said on Wednesday.
14 "I saw the flame. I almost lost consciousness.
15 This did not last very long."
16 Did you not say this on Wednesday?
17 A. Yes. The time, I could have said 20 seconds, maybe 10
18 seconds, maybe five seconds. I do not know. I was
19 giving the statement to the investigating judge and he
20 said: "How long?" I said: "I do not know." I didn't
21 know how long it was. I was ready to ask him to be --
22 to kill me so we would stop suffering.
23 Q. Just for clarification I would like the court to be
24 aware now the secondhand is on the 6, and what a long
25 period of time -- now it is 10 seconds and now it is 20
1 seconds. On February 20th, you were --
2 JUDGE JAN: Excuse me. How could a person who is burning
3 count the time?
4 MS McMURREY: I do not have to answer the questions, your
5 Honour. Mr Babic is the one who allowed 20 seconds.
6 JUDGE JAN: That is what he thought. If I had been there,
7 I would have thought it was a year.
8 MS McMURREY: Yes, probably. I am just trying to bring out
9 the discrepancies in your testimony. Also you said that
10 he extinguished it with a coat on February 20th 1996 and
11 on Wednesday you said --
12 A. Yes, yes.
13 Q. -- he covered up the leg and he put it out very
14 quickly. Is that not what you said Wednesday?
15 A. Yes. Well, I do not know how it happened. I do not
16 know what it was.
17 Q. Then you say you went back to the camp crawling on
18 February 20th 1996, did you not, but you never mentioned
19 crawling back to the camp on Wednesday, did you?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Your exact words were:
22 "I went in and --
23 A. You know --
24 Q. Did you say on Wednesday:
25 "I went in and sat down"?
1 A. Yes, ladies and gentlemen, on 26th February I gave a
2 statement. It is true that I barely could walk, that I
3 would drop down and then I would get up again, but I
4 cannot remember all of this, and I keep forgetting
5 things. Yes, he kicked me twice when he was taking --
6 when he was setting me on fire, and there was that plank
7 next to the door to the right, and he opened that door.
8 I walked in and he did not touch me then and I just went
9 straight to my place. That is what it was.
10 Q. Mr Babic --
11 A. It is the truth but I cannot recall everything, ladies
12 and gentlemen, please.
13 Q. Your account of what happened on February 20th 1996 was
14 a lot more dramatic and exaggerated than your account
15 under oath here in this court room, was it not?
16 A. Ladies and gentlemen, please, if I only had another five
17 years, maybe I would not be remembering any of this. I
18 am losing all this from my sight, because I do not want
19 to talk about it any more. I just want -- having come
20 here because I was invited to come here, but other than
21 that. Thank you very much. Thank you very much to the
22 judges for inviting me here to the Hague, to the
23 tribunal to tell the truth.
24 MR TURONE: Your Honours, instead of continuing --
25 A. But, ladies and gentlemen, in five years one forgets,
1 and it is also the age. I do not have the memory. Had
2 I been asked right away, when it was still fresh, but
3 five years had gone by. You can ask me now all you
4 want, but ...
5 MR TURONE: Your Honours, instead of objecting again, I
6 would like the defence counsel to avoid asking the
7 witness to characterise the previous statement, because
8 this is not part of his testimony. Thank you.
9 MS McMURREY: Your Honour, may I respond? He made the
10 statement. It is signed. It will be before the court
11 as evidence in a few moments. The statement that he
12 made on February 20th 1996 is exaggerated and dramatic
13 and not at all related to the statement that he made in
14 this court room on Wednesday. It shows maybe a motive
15 for fabrication, which is also necessary to the
16 impeachment of this witness. I only ask that he answer
17 my one question, because he knows whether his statement
18 of February 20th was exaggerated and more dramatic than
19 his statement that he made on Wednesday. That is the
20 only person that has personal knowledge of that. May I
21 ask the question?
22 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: If my memory is correct, much of the
23 things he has been telling you should be the answer to
24 that question. It has been a cumulative experience and
25 one forgets and is likely to forget and he might have
1 been forgetting quite a number of events.
2 MS McMURREY: I was just asking in summary basically. I
3 will move on, if I may proceed.
4 Mr Babic, on July 15th, when you alleged that
5 Mr Landzo poured petrol on your leg, nobody else
6 witnessed this incident except you, did they?
7 A. I do not know. It was somewhere around 20th July, but I
8 said it was somewhere around 20th July, not around 15th
10 Q. Well, excluding the date, nobody else witnessed this
11 incident except you, did they?
12 A. Yes, there was a guard there. I do not know who it
13 was. He was a bit further away.
14 Q. Your Honours, I would like to ask Mr Babic to show his
15 wound to the court again so that the video department
16 might take a photograph, because we would like to
17 introduce the photograph of Mr Babic's injury into
18 evidence as defence exhibit. We, of course, have not
19 been allowed any opportunity to view his wound except
20 briefly on Wednesday. Could we ask Mr Babic to expose
21 that so that the video department can get it on the
22 video camera and also on a still camera so we can
23 preserve it for evidence?
24 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Yes. Let him expose his wound.
25 MS McMURREY: I am going to ask the Video Department and
1 Mark to assist me with this, if possible. Mr Babic,
2 would you stand up, please, and wherever the Video
3 Department tells me is the best place for viewing?
4 A. Yes, I can. Can I take off the headphones.
5 Q. Yes, please.
6 MS McMURREY: May I approach too, your Honour? Since I am
7 not technically sure about what happens here, I do not
8 know if we get a still photograph of this so I can --
9 okay. Thank you. May I approach the witness to look,
10 your Honour, also? Thank you. Photographs are
11 dangerous, are they not? That is how you will take it.
12 JUDGE JAN: Mr Ostberg, was he medically examined at any
14 MR OSTBERG: As far as this wound, I do not know. I do not
15 really know.
16 MS McMURREY: Did you get a photograph of that? Okay.
17 Thank you, Mr Babic. I just wanted to preserve this for
18 the court's review when they take the evidence back.
19 Thank you very much.
20 In responding to Mr Ostberg, we had asked the
21 prosecution a long time ago to provide any medical
22 documentation that they had and they told us they had no
23 further. So we assume, based upon the representation by
24 the prosecution, that there are no medical records
25 relating to this injury, and therefore I would like to
1 re-urge to the court to grant us permission to have our
2 doctor just briefly look at the wound and tell us what
3 kind of wound it is.
4 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Let us hear the response to that.
5 MR TURONE: The position of the prosecution is that if the
6 Trial Chamber deems useful and necessary to have medical
7 expertise done on the leg of Mr Babic, that would
8 certainly be done, and the prosecution has no objection
9 against that, but we assume that an expert should be
10 appointed by the Trial Chamber or by the Registry and
11 not simply pick up any physician here today to do that,
12 whom we do not know anything about. This is the
13 position of the prosecution. We do not object to a
14 medical expertise, but it has to be an expertise done
15 either by the Trial Chamber or the Registry, with the
16 possibility of experts from both
17 parties in the case. Thank you, your Honours.
18 MS McMURREY: May I respond? We have certainly no
19 opposition to the tribunal appointing whatever expert
20 they deem appropriate to examine Mr Babic's leg. We
21 have no problem with that, and just as long as -- at
22 this point, because there is no authentication
23 whatsoever of the injury -- it could have happened 20
24 years ago, it could have happened last year. It could
25 not be a burn injury whatsoever; it could be a bruise.
1 We just need to know for our own benefit and for the
2 tribunal's benefit what this injury is. Since we have
3 no medical records and Mr Babic never saw a doctor in
4 relation to this, then we have no information about it.
5 Just to authenticate it is what he claims it is, we ask
6 the tribunal to appoint whatever expert they choose.
7 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Thank you very much. (Pause). I
8 think -- we have conferred. Since there is a dispute as
9 to the nature of the injury, the fairest thing is to
10 empanel an independent expert to go into it and
11 determine whether, in fact, this is what it is claimed
12 to be. So it might not be correct to use your own
13 expert, which has not been agreed to by the
15 MS McMURREY: Thank you, your Honour. I agree and we will
16 certainly oblige anything that the tribunal thinks is
17 fair in this area. So thank you.
18 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: I think the fairest thing is to get
19 the Registrar to appoint an independent to examine the
20 witness and determine the nature of the injury, and for
21 how long he has had it. I think that is a possibility.
22 MS McMURREY: Thank you very much. So we all get home
23 before Christmas, I really only have a couple more
24 questions right now. I would like the court -- we just
25 did receive the interpretation of those documents from
1 the Bosnian government, so I have just two more
2 questions for Mr Babic, and then I will let Mr Moran
3 proceed, but I would like to be able to come back after
4 I have studied these documents just to ask him limited
5 questions referring to those documents only. I only
6 have a few more questions.
7 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Put them to him.
8 MS McMURREY: May I proceed? Mr Babic, just for the record
9 I want to make it clear there are no medical records
10 anywhere reflecting the injury on your right ankle, are
12 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: I am surprised you still continue on
13 that line when we have decided we are getting an
14 independent --
15 MS McMURREY: Then I will go on to the next question. I
16 just wanted on to the record that there were no --
17 A. Allow me to say something, if I may.
18 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Yes. Let us hear it.
19 A. Gentlemen, may I be allowed? When I left the camp it
20 was still wartime. I had no-one to consult. Who could
21 I talk to? There were no doctors. There was no-one. I
22 was at the Military Academy Hospital. I went for
23 treatment. Then I went to Sarajevo. I was living in
24 Alija. There were no doctors, there was nothing. Who
25 would give me a medical examination? So it went on.
1 Five years have gone by.
2 I am honoured to say to the honourable judge, who
3 called me to speak before this court to tell the truth,
4 and I am honoured, but who would look at me? There were
5 no doctors. There were no medicines. I was not even
6 thinking about my own life. That is why I have no
7 medical documentation. That is the reason. Here I am
8 now before this tribunal in the Hague. I feel honoured
9 to have this opportunity to inform you of the truth and
10 tell you how I was burned. It is up to you to judge.
11 Q. Mr Babic, would it surprise you to know that the other
12 witnesses with injuries had seen the doctor to the
13 Belgrade Commission in Serbia and they all have medical
14 records reflecting their injuries in this case?
15 MR TURONE: Objection. This is not something the witness
16 can know and it is arguable whether all the other ones
17 had or not.
18 MS McMURREY: I will proceed, your Honour.
19 A. I do not know.
20 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Some other question, not this one.
21 MS McMURREY: Yes. Mr Babic, on Wednesday you testified on
22 page 287 of the transcript that people kept disappearing
23 from Celebici, did you not?
24 A. Yes, yes.
25 Q. But you do not know whether they were traded, released?
1 You have no idea what happened to those people that
2 simply disappeared, do you?
3 A. I do not know. Only when I left the camp I learned that
4 they were no longer among the living.
5 Q. I object. He is referring to hearsay, something he
6 learned after he left the camp from other Serbian people
7 in his village. He has no personal knowledge.
8 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Well, you have told me how the Common
9 Law procedure about cross-examination is and I told you
10 from the beginning you take the consequences of your
12 MS McMURREY: Then, Mr Babic, would you just answer my
13 question? I asked you if you personally knew what
14 happened to the people that you claim disappeared. You
15 do not, do you?
16 A. I do not know.
17 Q. My last question: Mr Babic, you said that Esad Landzo
18 never came around any more about a week before September
19 1st, 1992; is that correct?
20 A. Yes, that is what I said.
21 Q. But the truth is that you do not know exactly when he
22 left or where he went, do you?
23 A. I do not know. I just remember that five or six days
24 before I left to Musala, Konjic, he disappeared and I do
25 not know anything more about him.
1 Q. Your Honour, I am going to pass the witness now subject
2 to the permission of the tribunal to question him after
3 lunch on the documents that we just received. It would
4 be very brief. May I have permission?
5 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: You are concluding cross-examination
6 for the time being?
7 MS McMURREY: For the time being?
8 A. May I go out and have a smoke, please?
9 MS McMURREY: If I smoked, I would go out and have a smoke
11 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Did I hear Mr Babic wanting to smoke?
12 A. I would like to ask your permission if I could to go out
13 and have a cigarette, please. I beg you to allow me to
14 do that.
15 JUDGE JAN: If it means he remains relaxed, we might let
16 him have a smoke.
17 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: We will rise for a few minutes and let
18 him have a smoke.
20 (Luncheon Adjournment)
2 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Please call the witness. The witness
3 is still on his oath and still under cross-examination.
4 MR MORAN: May it please the court --
5 MS McMURREY: Excuse me just for one second. I was just
6 going to offer the documents I promised the tribunal
7 earlier. This is the statement of Mirko Babic from
8 February 20th, 1996 and the photographs taken here in
9 the court room to be marked as defence exhibits for the
10 court's review please.
11 JUDGE JAN: No objection.
12 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: I have no objection to his extra
13 judicial statement being taken.
14 MR TURONE: No objection, your Honour.
15 MS McMURREY: Thank you very much.
16 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Mark the documents "Defence exhibits 1
17 and 2".
18 THE REGISTRAR: The statement will be marked document D1/4
19 and the photograph D1/-- D2/4.
20 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Thank you very much.
21 Cross-examination by MR MORAN
22 MR MORAN: Mr Babic, my name is Tom Moran, one of the
23 defence lawyers here. I am going to be asking you some
24 questions. If I speak too fast and/or you do not
25 understand the question, will you stop me and ask me to
1 repeat it?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. First, I would like to thank you for the smoke break. I
4 am also a smoker and needed that break also. I would
5 like to discuss a few things with you this afternoon.
6 First, there was a lot of talk about your statement, the
7 statement that you gave to the office of the prosecutor
8 back in February 1996. I would like to talk with you a
9 little bit about how that statement was given. Did you
10 go to an office or did they come to your house?
11 A. I went to an office and gave the statement.
12 Q. And there were two people there, Mr D'Hooge from the
13 office of the prosecutor and an interpreter; right?
14 A. Right.
15 Q. You do not read or writing English, do you?
16 A. No.
17 Q. As I understand it, Mr D'Hooge would ask you some
18 questions and they would be interpreted for you; is that
20 A. Yes, it is true.
21 Q. Sometimes he would ask you things you did not remember?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. And you said a little earlier today that sometimes when
24 you did not know, he would keep asking you and tell you
25 to guess; is that not right?
1 A. No. He was not saying that, nothing like that. He
2 asked me what did I know, whether I remembered this and
3 what I knew I said, but there was no persuasion or
5 Q. Well, for instance, you said earlier, when you were
6 talking to Ms McMurrey, that when you were asked about
7 how many people were in building number 22, you said you
8 did not know and he kept saying: "Make an
9 approximation"; is that not right?
10 A. Yes, that is correct.
11 Q. He kept telling you he wanted the statement shorter and
12 he wanted you to hurry it up. You said that, did you
14 A. Yes, towards the end, and I was avoiding it too.
15 Q. What were you avoiding, sir?
16 A. Just so that we wouldn't go so long, I was just saying
17 what I remembered.
18 Q. By the way, you probably remembered things better back
19 in February of 1996 than you do today, do not you?
20 A. Yes, yes.
21 Q. Because it has been a long time?
22 A. A long time. I am forgetting quite a bit. I said
23 before in another five years I would have forgotten
24 almost everything.
25 Q. I understand. I believe you testified last Wednesday,
1 and stop me if I am wrong, that in 1967, when you became
2 a forest guard, you went to MUP and MUP gave you a
3 permit to carry the pistol and the pistol itself; is
4 that right?
5 A. Yes, you are right.
6 Q. And that was because you needed the pistol because of
7 your job as a forest guard; right?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Now in April 1992 you were not a forest guard any more,
10 were you?
11 A. Four or five months before the war itself, I retired.
12 Q. So in April 1992 you did not need a pistol to be a
13 forest guard any more, did you?
14 A. Nobody took that weapon away from me. I had the right
15 to carry it. Nobody wanted it. I kept it.
16 Q. Yes, sir, but in April of 1992 you did not need that
17 pistol to be a forest guard any more, did you?
18 A. As a forest guard, no, but it was my weapon. I had
19 bought it and I had legal permit from the Konjic
20 municipality and I kept with it me. Nobody asked me to
21 give it in, so I kept it.
22 Q. I thought you testified a few minutes ago that MUP gave
23 you the weapon?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Did you buy it from them or did they issue it to you,
1 lend it to you?
2 A. I bought it for my own money in a shop in Sarajevo and
3 told the MUP in Konjic and they issued me a permit to
4 carry it and that was in 1967. That pistol stayed with
5 me at my place until 22nd May 1992, when Midhat took it
6 from me.
7 Q. So MUP did not give you the pistol?
8 A. Yes, MUP, MUP was the one that issued it to me in
10 Q. I thought you said you just bought the pistol -- you
11 just said you bought the pistol in Sarajevo?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. So MUP did not give you the pistol?
14 A. No, not MUP, no, no, no. I just reported it to MUP.
15 Q. To get a permit?
16 A. Yes, in order to get the permit.
17 Q. And that was so --
18 A. There was no problem about that. They gave -- I sent in
19 a request and within three days I got the permit, and
20 there was no problem after that at all.
21 Q. That was because you needed it for your job; right?
22 A. Yes, for my job, because I was in the field. I was an
23 official person and I was a forest guard.
24 Q. Sir, I would like to jump forward a little bit and talk
25 about building number 22. Do you remember what the
1 inside of building 22 looked like?
2 A. As far as I remember, there were white walls. As far as
3 I can recall, and that is about it.
4 Q. Were there any windows you could look out of?
5 A. I cannot recall. It seems to me that maybe up there but
6 no, I was not even looking. I do not know what there
8 Q. So if there were windows that you could look out of, you
9 do not remember?
10 A. I don't remember any of it. I was not even looking so I
11 do not know if there was anything.
12 Q. Sir, in your statement of February 20th -- in fact, in
13 your testimony here also last week -- when certain
14 incidents happened, you were pretty specific about the
15 time. You said one thing happened at 9 o'clock in the
16 morning. Something else happened at 10 o'clock in the
17 morning. Did you have a watch?
18 A. No.
19 Q. Did someone take away your watch?
20 A. No. I remember something from number 22. In the
21 evenings some people came. I do not know who it was.
22 They came to the door and said whoever has any watches
23 or gold, they should turn it in to them, and if they did
24 not get it, they will come and control. Then I remember
25 that some did get up and turn it over to them, but --
1 and that is how I remember.
2 Q. But you did not have a watch?
3 A. No, no, not at all.
4 Q. So how could you tell that something happened at
5 9 o'clock in the morning or 10 o'clock in the morning?
6 A. Approximately, you know.
7 Q. So you were just guessing?
8 A. Yes, I was guessing. I didn't have a watch. It was
9 around that time. I was not even thinking how long
10 something went on, whether it went on for minutes or for
11 hours. I didn't know.
12 Q. So, for instance, when you testified last Wednesday that
13 another day someone came in about 9 o'clock, the time
14 was just a guess?
15 A. How do you mean? Can you repeat it, please?
16 Q. Yes, sir. On page 275, line 25, and continuing on to
17 the next page of the transcript from last Wednesday, you
19 "Another day about 9 o'clock he came again and he
20 kicked me with his boot."
21 You were just guessing about the time, were you
23 A. It's not true that I said 9. I do not remember the
24 dates, at what time it was.
25 Q. So if it is in the transcript, that is a mistake?
1 A. I do not know that I said that, 9 o'clock. I do not
2 remember that.
3 Q. Okay. So if it is in the transcript, that would be a
4 mistake; is that correct?
5 A. I do not know.
6 Q. You do not know, sir?
7 A. I do not know. I do not know that I said 9 o'clock. I
8 do not remember.
9 Q. Sir, I would like to also talk to you a little bit about
10 Slobodan Babic. He was your cousin; is that not
12 A. Yes, yes.
13 Q. He went to Radava, did he not? He was there with you,
14 was he not?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. He had been beaten up, like you had been, before he got
17 to Radava; is that not correct?
18 A. Yes, he was. He was all bloody in his face and his arms
19 and his head, just like I was.
20 Q. That was before either of you got to Celebici; is that
21 not correct?
22 A. That was before, but I do not remember Slobodan arriving
23 to Celebici with me that night. I do not recall. I was
24 in bad shape. I know that there was a truck with a
25 canopy. I only know that I arrived in front of number
1 22 and I was put inside. I do not recall Slobodan, but
2 I remember that I saw him two days later lying next to
3 me, and I saw how he was. He couldn't hear and he
4 couldn't see and the other witnesses will tell that
5 something in his mouth was injured, and I remember well
6 that a bottle filled with water came from somewhere -- I
7 do not know if the guards brought it -- and I remember
8 that they were trying to give it to him drop by drop,
9 but it couldn't get through, but he was dying and I was
10 watching as he was dying, and I can also say that his
11 son came, Predrag, and he was there two or three days,
12 and he was watching his own father dying, but he
13 couldn't look at him, and his son was released soon, and
14 he stayed in 22. His son was about 17.
15 Q. Yes, sir, and again my question was --
16 A. You see how much I do not recall, you know, so much time
17 has passed.
18 Q. Sir, let me try my question again and see if you can
19 answer it this time. Slobodan Babic had been beaten
20 severely at Radava, before he got there; right?
21 A. Yes, yes, badly beaten, just like I was.
22 Q. That was before either one of you --
23 A. They beat us over our heads, chest, yes.
24 Q. And that was before either one of you had been to the
25 Celebici camp; is that not right?
1 A. I know it was before. I just know that I arrived in
2 Celebici to number 22 and I didn't see Slobodan, but I
3 saw him badly beaten two days later in number 22. He
4 was very badly beaten at that time.
5 Q. Yes, sir, and when you were at Radava with him, and he
6 was beaten there, that beating and those injuries
7 occurred before either one of you got to Celebici; is
8 that not correct?
9 A. I do not remember anything. I just know that in Radava
10 I lost him there. When I climbed on to the truck I do
11 not recall anything until two days later I saw him in
12 number 22, where he was beaten up. I do not recall
13 anything else.
14 Q. Yes, sir. Let us try this a little bit differently.
15 Once you left Radava and went to Celebici, you never
16 went back to Radava, did you?
17 A. No.
18 Q. If you and Slobodan Babic were injured while you were at
19 Radava that was before either one of you got to
20 Celebici; is that not correct?
21 A. We were beaten up on the way from the village of
22 Bijelovcina, where we had stopped, where two women
23 bought out Slobodan and he was already bloodied. He was
24 bloodied like I was. When we arrived in Konjic, in the
25 sports hall in Konjic municipality, then they did not
1 touch us. We were there, both of us, but the next day,
2 the evening of the 23rd they called us out, and we went
3 in the truck from Radava.
4 The truck stopped and we entered into this hotel
5 and there were three of four of them there. One had his
6 foot bandaged and he started beating us. I said there
7 was this Ismeta girl, and she did not allow that. I do
8 not know if she worked there or not. She said: "You are
9 not going to touch the forest guard." She brought some
10 eggs and I'll never forget that she gave us water to
11 drink and I'm very thankful to her. She saved us just
12 by giving us water there.
13 Half an hour later we started off again. I said
14 that on Wednesday. Then after that I didn't see
15 Slobodan. I went on to the truck and then I arrived in
16 number 22 in Celebici and they put me in there, and at
17 that moment I do not recall if Slobodan came with me at
18 that time. I only remember that two days later I saw
19 him in number 22 beaten up. He was dying. He was
21 Q. Mr Babic --
22 A. And do not ask me anything else about Slobodan because I
23 do not know who beat him, what they did to him and
24 where. That is all I know. I heard from some
25 statements that he was somewhere in a motel, that he was
1 being beaten there. Some others say it was in a school,
2 but Dr Petko can give you that evidence. He knows the
3 most about that.
4 Q. Mr Babic, let me make a deal with you; okay? I will ask
5 a question and I will try to make the question as narrow
6 as possible. If you do not understand it, I will repeat
7 it or rephrase it; okay? In return, will you just
8 answer the question that I ask? Is that fair enough?
9 A. Yes, I agree with that.
10 Q. Okay. Fine. Thank you.
11 A. Thank you.
12 Q. So basically what you are telling the tribunal --
13 basically what your testimony about Slobodan Babic is is
14 you and he were both injured when you arrived at Radava;
15 that is correct, is it not?
16 A. Yes, we were injured.
17 Q. You were split up at Radava?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. When they -- you were taken to Celebici?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. And two days later Slobodan Babic was brought to
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. At the time he was brought there he was terribly
25 injured, was he not?
1 A. Yes, yes.
2 Q. He had been tortured?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. And he couldn't see?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. And he couldn't hear?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. And somebody, before he got to Celebici, had been
9 putting guns in his mouth; right?
10 A. Maybe. I cannot say that exactly. Probably something
11 was put in his mouth and that is how the injury resulted
12 so he couldn't swallow anything. He was very ill.
13 Q. He was in that condition when he got to Celebici; right?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. You testified back on Wednesday that Hazim Delic, my
16 client, was the commandant of the camp, did you not?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. You also testified that he was a deputy to someone else,
19 did you not?
20 A. You asked me. I could not distinguish the two. I said
21 we called him Mr Commander, but who he was -- that is
22 what I said on Wednesday -- I said I didn't know.
23 Q. So you do not really know who the commander of the camp
24 at Celebici was, do you?
25 A. I do not know who was the commander.
1 Q. You would not want anybody to get the impression and to
2 think that you were saying that someone was commander,
3 would you?
4 A. No. I said so. I repeat again we called Hazim Delic
5 "Mr Commander". Whether he was a commander, whether he
6 was a deputy, what rank he was, I really do not know. I
7 do not know anything about that. I do not know who was
8 the commander in the prison, but I only know that is how
9 we called him.
10 Q. By the way, Mr Delic, what kind of uniform did he wear?
11 A. Green camouflage uniform.
12 Q. Was there anything different about his uniform from
13 everybody else's uniform?
14 A. I do not know. I cannot describe it to you. I mostly
15 looked in front of me. I didn't look left and right. I
16 do not know.
17 Q. Do you know if he was -- when he walked, how did he
19 A. Normally. He was hurt somewhere. I do not know. He
20 was limping a little bit. He carried an automatic rifle
21 and that is how he walked. He was a hardworking young
22 man and we all feared him terribly, when he would come
24 Q. Was he carrying a crutch?
25 A. I don't remember.
1 Q. Do you remember whether or not in late May, early June
2 of 1992 whether he was wearing a cast on one leg?
3 A. I don't remember.
4 Q. Your Honour, may I have just a second, just a couple of
5 seconds to confer with co-counsel?
6 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Yes.
7 MR MORAN: Thank you. Mr Babic, when you were a forest
8 guard -- I do not know how it is in the former
9 Yugoslavia, but in America, where I come from, working
10 in the forest is a very dangerous profession. People
11 get hurt all the time. Is it that way in Yugoslavia?
12 A. Well, I do not know. I just know what I did and I
13 didn't have any such cases.
14 Q. I pass the witness, your Honour.
15 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Mrs Residovic, the witness is for you
17 Cross-examination by MS RESIDOVIC
18 MS RESIDOVIC (in interpretation): Thank you,
19 Mr President. Mr Babic, my name is Edina Residovic. I
20 am defence counsel of Zejnil Delalic. May I start the
22 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Yes.
23 MS RESIDOVIC (in interpretation): Mr Babic, you said in
24 your earlier testimony that after the cessation from the
25 Assembly of Bosnia-Herzegovina you organised watch duty
1 round your houses?
2 A. No, we did not organise. We just kept -- I was on duty
3 in front of my house. Occasionally we'd go out in the
4 evenings and in the mornings but there was absolutely no
6 Q. In answer to a question by Mr Turone, you said this was
7 at the beginning of 1992; is that correct?
8 A. In April 1992.
9 Q. In your statement of February 22nd in 1996 you said that
10 this happened after the Assembly at the beginning of
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Mr President, may I be allowed to show a short videotape
14 to the witness to remind him a little?
15 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: What is the thing you want to remind
16 him of? Put that to him.
17 MS RESIDOVIC (in interpretation): The Assembly that the
18 witness is referring to now and in his previous
19 statement and in the testimony before this court, as he
20 is talking about two different dates, 1991 and April
22 A. No. I didn't say anything about 1991.
23 Q. But that is what is recorded in your statement of
24 February 20th.
25 A. I do not know what's written there but this was in April
2 Q. Mr President, some of those questions are a component
3 part of the introduction of the indictment from which
4 some of the charges against my defendant emerge. That
5 is why this is important for me, and the videotape lasts
6 less than half a minute?
7 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: If you choose to do that, it is okay.
8 You can get the videotape. I really do not see the
9 importance of it.
10 MS RESIDOVIC (in interpretation): I would like to ask the
11 technicians to give you insert number 1 and, your
12 Honours, I would like to supply you with a translation
13 of the text of the speaker on that videotape.
14 JUDGE JAN: Is it an agreed translation? Has the
15 prosecution had an opportunity to look at it?
16 MR TURONE: This is quite new for us. Could we have a
17 translation too?
18 MS RESIDOVIC (in interpretation): Yes, of course. Maybe
19 we could put it on the ELMO, if you like.
20 MS RESIDOVIC (in interpretation): For the court.
21 MR TURONE: Your Honour, if you allow me, we believe that
22 this is not relevant to the case and it is something
23 about which the witness already said he does not know
24 anything about.
25 MS RESIDOVIC (in interpretation): Your Honour, what is
1 relevant for the defence I think should be allowed the
3 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Frankly, I did not see this trail of
4 events relating to any date. If you are interested in a
5 date, you can introduce the dates and during
6 consideration I think one can take cognisance of the
7 differences in the two dates.
8 MS RESIDOVIC (in interpretation): Your Honour, reference
9 is made to the Assembly and not the date.
10 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: The Assembly sitting will not
11 authenticate any dates. It will not be there and nobody
12 will know whatever whether it sat on that date or any
13 other date. I do not see the relevance of it. If you
14 have other things to say in order to contradict the
15 witness, go ahead and do that, because it has no
16 relevance whatsoever.
17 MS RESIDOVIC (in interpretation): We would like to remind
18 the witness, because it is a relevant Assembly meeting,
19 not just any Assembly meeting.
20 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: I am not sure he is a member of the
21 Assembly, is he? The witness is not a member of that
22 assembly. He did not take part in any of the things
23 there. If that is your case, put it to him, but I do
24 not need any of this videotape.
25 MS RESIDOVIC (in interpretation): Your Honour, his
1 behaviour and the behaviour of others was affected
2 substantively by that Assembly, so that is why I would
3 request that we show this video.
4 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: If you are saying it is historical
5 fact, state that and we can carry on with the evidence.
6 You can say that. There is no point putting on a
7 video. The video is completely irrelevant to what you
8 want to say. The historical fact has happened. The
9 Assembly held certain things. Then you can go ahead, if
10 also he is familiar with that. If he is not familiar
11 with that, that is a different matter.
12 MS RESIDOVIC (in interpretation): In your statement, you
13 said that after that you were very scared and at that
14 Assembly the external nation was threatened of the
15 Muslim people. Is that what you were afraid of?
16 A. That is not true. I and my neighbourhood, we were
17 afraid that something could happen. We did not know who
18 would attack us. We were living together, all of us
19 together, until the last day. We did not talk about
20 Muslims or Serbs or Croats.
21 Q. Will you piece answer my direct question? At the
22 mentioned Assembly Radovan Karadzic threatened with the
23 external nation of the Muslim people. Were you afraid
24 of that threat to the Muslim people?
25 A. Do not ask me these things. I do not know anything
1 about that, what Karadzic said, who said. I do not know
3 Q. If you do not know, even though you do not know, did you
4 set up guards to watch your houses; yes or no?
5 A. No. There weren't guards. We were just -- we looked
6 after our houses and stables. We had shifts. I have
7 experience. Why was I afraid? Why did I keep duty. If
8 His Honour allows me, I will tell him why I was afraid.
9 Q. Will you please answer my question. On February 20th,
10 talking to the investigator of the prosecution, you said
11 that you put guards round your houses. Is that true or
13 A. Those were not guards. We just watched over our houses.
14 Q. But that certainly is different from what you are now
16 A. I do not know what you imply by "guards". We were
17 simply watching over our houses.
18 Q. Mr Babic, you live in the municipality of Konjic, do you
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. You know on May 4th Konjic was shelled?
22 A. No, I do not know. Maybe it was but I do not remember.
23 Q. And that after that day Konjic was heavily shelled on a
24 daily basis?
25 A. I do not remember. Maybe. I do not know.
1 Q. You are a citizen of the municipality of Konjic; yes?
2 A. Thank you.
3 Q. Let me go back to some of the questions affecting you
4 personally, Mr Babic you are a forest guard until 1973
5 in Pren, Konjic. From 1973 you are an unskilled worker
6 in Neretva of Konjic?
7 A. Yes, that's right.
8 Q. After that, until 31st August 1991, you were a forest
9 guard of private woods in the municipality?
10 A. In 1984 I again became a forest guard, a private forest
11 guard in the municipality of Konjic, but my manager was
12 the same over state run forests and private forest,
13 Dzemo Karabegovi.
14 Q. So in 1973 after disciplinary proceedings against you
15 you were transferred to the position of an unskilled
17 A. There were no disciplinary proceedings. They simply
18 told me: "You are changing your job."
19 Q. Is that demotion in relation to your previous post?
20 A. I do not know. At that time there were redundancies.
21 There were 24 foresters and that is why I had to change
22 my job.
23 Q. In 1973 there were no redundancies?
24 A. This was in 1986. Yes, there were in the forest
25 maintenance enterprise.
1 Q. Are you saying that you did not abuse your official
2 position and as a result were transferred to the
3 position of an unskilled worker?
4 A. Yes, that is what I am saying. I didn't commit any
6 Q. You were pensioned off on 31st August 1991?
7 A. Maybe.
8 Q. In answer to Mr Turone's question you said that in May
9 1992 you were a forester?
10 A. I retired four, five months before that. That is all I
12 Q. Mr Babic, you were not a forester in May 1992?
13 A. No, I was not.
14 MR TURONE: I beg your pardon. I object to this question.
15 The witness has already answered more than one time to
16 this request of clarification.
17 MS RESIDOVIC (in interpretation): Allow me, Mr President,
18 because some of the answers were not precise, since I
19 have the exact information, I wish to clear these points
20 up in the interests of the defence of my client. At the
21 same time we wish to establish whether this witness is
22 speaking the truth in reference to those facts. May I
24 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Yes. You are free. You can
1 MS RESIDOVIC (in interpretation): Pensioners in our
2 country cannot have weapons as an official instrument of
3 work. Did you return your pistol, because you no longer
4 had any official duties?
5 A. Nobody asked for my pistol back. I can tell you also
6 that just before retirement, two months before that, I
7 asked because I was hunting a little, I asked to have a
8 hunting rifle, if they would give me a permit for a
9 hunting rifle and I got that permit, but I didn't buy a
10 rifle. I had the right to hunt and the pistol I had was
11 my own property. Nobody wanted it, and I could have
12 carried it until my death.
13 Q. You did not return it?
14 A. No, there is no need. It is my own personal pistol.
15 Q. Mr Babic, you said that you were a member of the SDS?
16 A. Yes, I was.
17 Q. Do you know Dusko Bendjo and Risto Vukalo, your
19 A. I do.
20 Q. Do you know that Miro Duricic was President of the SDS
21 in your local community and you were the secretary?
22 A. No.
23 Q. If these other persons were to confirm these allegations
24 do they know --
25 MR TURONE: Objection, your Honour. The defence may not
1 impeach this witness with what other persons may or may
2 not have said or may come to say in future. It is the
3 submission of the prosecution that the defence may bring
4 in other witnesses to say certain things. If the
5 defence wishes, they may also attempt to bring in
6 documents which contain information different than that
7 said by the witness, but this witness has no way of
8 knowing what other witnesses have or have not said or
9 are going to say.
10 The witness thus may not be asked about what other
11 persons have said. Asking him this is improper. Asking
12 him about what other people said, asking his opinion on
13 what other people may have said or may come to say in
14 the future, asking his knowledge about other people
15 having said whatever is improper, unfair to the witness
16 and potentially misleading. If the defence wants to
17 introduce some statements, the defence can do that, but
18 the defence cannot introduce other documents through
19 this witness if they concern something which other
20 people said.
21 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Actually all counsel has suggested is
22 whether he could accept the truth if others came to say
23 that. He is free to reject it. There is nothing
24 stopping him rejecting it.
25 MS RESIDOVIC (in interpretation): Mr President, my
1 colleague, Ms McMurrey, informed you this morning that
2 we have just received a large number, 130, statements of
3 various witnesses made in 1992. Since we were not able
4 to receive the full translation and we will be using the
5 transcripts as evidence in the proceedings -- my
6 colleagues informing me that we do have the translations
7 now. May we, your Honour, give you the translations of
8 the statements that we announced this morning, which may
9 serve as a basis for addressing questions to the
11 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: I do not know how regular that is. If
12 you have any questioning against the witness in
13 cross-examination, you can put it to him basing it on
14 whatever information you have about him.
15 MS RESIDOVIC (in interpretation): Very well. In that case
16 I will try and not mention the names of witnesses, as
17 the prosecutor has suggested, but I would like to ask a
18 question of Mr Babic. Mr Babic, do you know Cecez Lazar
19 from Donje Selo?
20 A. Yes, I do. It is about 15 kms away from me.
21 Q. You were in touch with him during 1991 and 1992?
22 A. That is not true. That is not true. That is more than
23 a question.
24 Q. Your duty was to cooperate with Zivak Strahinja?
25 A. No.
1 Q. You were given a rifle M48?
2 A. No. If other people say something else, does that mean
3 they are not telling the truth. I am telling the truth.
4 MR TURONE: Objection, your Honour. The witness cannot be
5 asked --
6 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: He has already answered it. I do not
7 see what you are objecting to. He said "no" and I think
8 that is conclusive.
9 MS RESIDOVIC (in interpretation): Mr Babic, did you have
10 injuries and burns before the war?
11 A. No.
12 Q. Do you know Jaric Marijan, a forester, born in Ibar?
13 A. I do.
14 Q. You were a good friend of his?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. He lived in Celebici near the restaurant called
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. You were friends together and from time to time you
20 would have a drink?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Did you ever burn plaster with him?
23 A. No.
24 Q. Three or four years before the war did you catch fire
25 together with Marijan in dealing with this plaster?
1 A. No.
2 Q. If medical documentation and that man were to say the
3 opposite, you are saying that they are not telling the
5 A. That is not true. I do not remember that, nor did that
6 happen, nor did I ever set fire to anything with
8 Q. Are you familiar with which municipality the village of
9 Bijelovcina would belong to if Konjic had been occupied?
10 A. I do not know. It was all the same to me. The only
11 thing was for me to be free. That is all I cared about.
12 Q. Are you telling us that you never consulted with anyone
13 over political questions?
14 A. No, because I was never interested in politics. I had
15 my job to do. That was all.
16 Q. Do you know that after interrogation a large number of
17 people were released from Celebici?
18 A. I do not know. Some people were released. I cannot
20 Q. You know that this was done by the information
22 A. I do not know.
23 Q. Let me repeat a question once again. You were not
24 exposed to any burns several years before the war?
25 A. No.
1 Q. Thank you. I have no more questions.
2 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: This is the last of the
3 cross-examinations, is it not?
4 MS McMURREY: Yes, your Honour, I believe subject to
5 re-cross, if the prosecution directs. Thank you.
6 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: You are suggesting some other
7 questions you had?
8 MS McMURREY: Yes, your Honour. I have just received one
9 of the documents in English -- we have not received one
10 of them, have we? Okay. We just received it from --
11 the translation not even a few seconds ago. If I might
12 have just one moment to read it please.
13 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Because it is better you conclude
14 whatever questions you want to ask before
15 re-examination. That is a tidier way.
16 JUDGE JAN: I have just one question to ask from the
17 witness: how many persons from his village were taken to
18 Celebici camp?
19 A. To Celebici camp to number 6 and the sports hall Musala
20 in Konjic 45 people were taken.
21 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Mrs McMurrey, can you continue with
22 your questions now?
23 MS McMURREY: Yes, your Honour, just briefly.
24 Further cross-examination by MS MCMURREY:
25 MS McMURREY: Mr Babic, do you know a Risto Vukalo?
1 A. I know him.
2 Q. He was a neighbour of yours, was he not?
3 A. Yes, a neighbour, a little bit further away, 1 km.
4 Q. So if Risto Vukalo made a statement saying that you were
5 responsible for cooperating with Strahinja Zivak in
6 distributing the arms in your village, he would be
8 MR TURONE: Objection, your Honour. I repeat my previous
9 objection about asking the witness about what other
10 people have said. The witness's opinion about what
11 other persons may have said or may not have said or may
12 say in future is not a proper question. It is improper
13 asking the witness about what other people said, his
14 opinion on what other people said, his knowledge on
15 other people having said whatever. If the defence wants
16 to introduce a statement of somebody else, it cannot do
17 that through a witness who is not the person who made
18 this statement.
19 MS McMURREY: Your Honour, we are asking if Mirko Babic was
20 the person who cooperated with distributing the arms in
21 his village as alleged by somebody else. I will
22 introduce both these statements into evidence for the
23 defence as we speak, if the court would like. I have
24 one question from this statement and two questions from
25 this statement. They are both very relevant. Mr Babic
1 has stated that he is not politically active, that he
2 has no involvement whatsoever with the political
3 environment in his community, and everybody -- all the
4 other statements indicate that yes, he was very active
5 in organising a resistance. I will introduce these for
6 the court's review immediately after I question him from
8 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Kindly repeat your question and let
9 him answer.
10 MS McMURREY: I will try. So if Risto Vukalo says that
11 you, Mirko Babic, and Miro Duricic were responsible for
12 cooperating with Strahinja Zivak in distributing the
13 arms from the shipments, he would be lying; is that
15 MR TURONE: Objection, your Honour.
16 A. Please allow me. Risto Vukalo is cousin through my
17 wife's sister. So he is a kin. I did not cooperate
18 with Strahinja. Let them gossip if they come here. You
19 will see. They'll tell you what they were saying, but I
20 doubt very much. It was not true, but where does this
21 come from? I don't know. Not from Risto.
22 Q. So your answer is that he would be lying if he made that
24 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: That is his answer.
25 MS McMURREY: Okay. Thank you. I would like to introduce
1 this statement.
2 JUDGE JAN: You cannot produce it in court in order to have
3 a statement before us.
4 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: You cannot introduce somebody's
6 MS McMURREY: Then I have one more question also. So if
7 Dusko Bendjo said he gave you an M48 rifle, he would be
8 lying, would he not?
9 MR TURONE: I object calling a liar anybody who might or
10 might not be a witness in the future.
11 MS McMURREY: I apologise. He would be saying an untruth,
12 would he not; yes?
13 A. Yes if he also said that the contacts for arming the
14 residents of Bijelovcina were Slobo Babic and Mirko
15 Babic --
16 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: This is rejected all times. You do
17 not go about repeating what a witness has rejected
18 differently. He has rejected that suggestion.
19 MS McMURREY: Okay. So he is saying that all of these
20 statements are incorrect.
21 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Yes.
22 MS McMURREY: One more question. Mr Babic, in your
23 statement of February 20th 1996 you stated that you were
24 a permanent invalid, did you not?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. I pass the witness, your Honour.
2 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: The witness is ready for
3 re-examination, if you have any questions.
4 MR TURONE: Thank you, your Honour. Just very briefly.
5 Re-examination by MR TURONE:
6 MR TURONE: Mr Babic, did Slobodan Babic receive any
7 medical care during the days he was in number 22?
8 A. I didn't see that anybody came to help him. I did not
9 see and I don't know what happened.
10 Q. So you did not have any occasion to observe anything
11 concerning Mr Slobodan Babic during those days?
12 A. Yes, yes.
13 Q. You mean you did not see anything particular?
14 A. I didn't notice anything in particular.
15 Q. Another question, Mr Babic: about Mr Branko Gotovac,
16 when he was brought to the infirmary, was he ever
17 brought back to hangar 6?
18 A. Yes, he was returned.
19 Q. And do you remember how did he return to hangar 6 after
20 the infirmary?
21 A. He was returned. He complained about some pain in the
22 stomach and shoulders, as far as I can recall. He
24 Q. All right. My last question now: did you yourself,
25 with your own eyes, have you ever yourself seen Ivan
1 Azinovic taken out from the hangar by Esad Landzo?
2 A. That I did not see. I only know that he disappeared
3 some time in the evening and in the morning he was not
4 there but who took him I don't know.
5 Q. I have finished, your Honour. Thank you.
6 MS McMURREY: I promise I have three questions on re-cross,
7 your Honour.
8 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: What is re-cross? He is not your
10 MS McMURREY: No, your Honour, but --
11 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: He is not your witness. You say you
12 are familiar with the Common Law cross-examination and
13 Common Law trials.
14 MS McMURREY: Yes, your Honour. May I respond?
15 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: You cannot, please. You can only
16 re-examine your own witness, not another witness.
17 MS McMURREY: Well, your Honour, that is not the way it is
18 in our country.
19 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: I know your country a little bit. It
20 is that way. You do not go around re-examining other
21 people's witnesses. I think that is all for this
23 MS McMURREY: Can I make it clear for my clarification so I
24 understand: he does direct; we do cross; he does
25 re-direct, so he gets the last word even though he has
1 the burden of proof?
2 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: When it comes to your own witness, you
3 have to re-examine. He does not re-examine.
4 MS McMURREY: Then we would like to ask that this witness
5 be available to recall him in the defence case, because
6 we have certainly not completed our questioning of him.
7 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: If we continue this, there will be no
8 end to this trial if everyone who comes is kept aside to
9 enable you, I suppose, after your style of
10 cross-examination, who is kept aside for you. Then
11 there will be no end for it. You have had enough time
12 and I kept on at every one of you. You have had enough
13 time to cross-examine. I think that is a normal
14 situation. The witness can stand down.
15 A. Shall we continue? Ladies and gentlemen, shall we
17 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: You mean with the witness? We have
18 nothing for him.
19 A. Am I going to come back here?
20 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Well, it depends on the prosecution.
21 A. Am I going to come back here? Can I say thank you. I
22 would like to say thank you, if it is over.
23 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: It is not completely, because there is
24 still the medical examination of your leg. The doctor
25 still has to verify your injury. The doctor still has
1 to verify your injury, whether there was an actual
2 injury at the time you complained you were burned or
3 something else. So you have to wait a little bit.
4 (Pause). You can now stand down.
5 A. Thank you.
6 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Mr Ostberg, what is your next ...
7 MR OSTBERG: Thank you very much, your Honour. I now ask
8 leave from the Trial Chamber to bring a witness who is
9 not on the witness list. That is Mr Brouwers who is
10 responsible for preparing the model and the enlargement
11 of two buildings, which I could not introduce through
12 Mr Beelen the other day. Mr Brouwers is waiting to do
13 this. I suppose he will give evidence in going on for
14 five minutes just to bring in these two models to be of
15 assistance hopefully to your Honour when we examine our
16 next witnesses.
17 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Five minutes is a very ambitious thing
18 to say knowing what it is --
19 MR OSTBERG: In my questioning it would be five minutes,
20 your Honour.
21 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Okay. Let us have it.
22 MS McMURREY: Your Honour, may the defence object to the
23 allowance of this witness to come and testify? He was
24 not on the witness list. He certainly is going to take
25 us by surprise and if we go all the way through the
1 trial allowing the prosecution to supplement whenever
2 they have forgotten a certain witness, this will take
3 certainly through next Easter, I am afraid.
4 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Well, I have no intention of going
5 against your style, but I think he is an expert witness,
6 who in any event all you need know is his expertise and
7 whether he is professionally qualified to do what he
8 said he did. I do not know whether you need any other
9 information other than that. Let Mr Ostberg reply.
10 MR OSTBERG: The only thing I asked for was to let him
11 testify to these two things, to make it possible for the
12 camera to go into these houses when we examine our next
13 witnesses, and legally I understood that I could not
14 introduce it, which I tried, with the model, which would
15 have been possible in my civil law system, but now I
16 wanted to introduce it through him and I see no other
17 way. I do it only for him, to assist the Trial Chamber
18 and the defence on examining a witness following this
19 one. Thank you.
20 MS McMURREY: Your Honour, we are merely objecting for the
21 record so that --
22 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Your objection is you think it is a
23 surprise to you. That is a surprise.
24 MS McMURREY: Yes, your Honour.
25 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Even if it was left to the end, there
1 is still nothing but an expert witness who is going to
2 tender what he did and nothing more.
3 MS McMURREY: Okay. We have the right to cross-examine.
4 JUDGE JAN: He is not going to prejudice your defence at
5 all. He is merely to help us with the larger model. So
6 I do not know why you objected to it.
7 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: We will now rise for about 20
8 minutes. We will come back at 4 o'clock.
9 (3.40 pm)
10 (Short break)
11 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Kindly invite the witness.
12 MR O'SULLIVAN: May it please, the court, before this
13 witness may I present an argument to the court regarding
14 presentation of evidence?
15 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: I do not know. Perhaps I might
16 clarify a few things. I do not know what you want to
17 say, but I think if you all remember, and I am sure you
18 do, Article 15 of the Statute establishes in the
19 tribunal first, the judges of the tribunal, the power to
20 make rules. It is on the rules made by the judges of
21 the tribunal that we are operating. In making the
22 rules, the judges took active consideration of all the
23 systems of the continents, each of the continents, and
24 there are several, and the Common Law systems, and not
25 to waste your time, let me go straight to the issue
1 about presentation of evidence at Rule 85. It is very
2 clear. I was surprised when Ms McMurrey thought
3 otherwise. Now apart from presenting -- showing of
4 evidence, it even goes on, which is (a) -- if you read
5 it, it is very clear. It says:
6 "Each party is entitled to call witnesses and
7 present evidence unless otherwise directed by the Trial
8 Chamber in the interests of justice. Evidence at the
9 trial shall be presented in the following sequence:
10 evidence for the prosecution; evidence for the defence;
11 prosecution evidence in rebuttal; defence evidence in
12 rejoinder; evidence by the Trial Chamber pursuant to
13 rule 98."
14 Then it goes forward in (b) to tell you what
15 should be done in case of leading witnesses. It says:
16 "Examination-in-chief, cross-examination and
17 re-examination shall be allowed in each case. It shall
18 be for the party calling a witness to examine him in
19 chief, but a judge must not at any stage put any
20 question to the witness."
21 Now even in respect of re-examination the
22 tradition of the Common Law which we all know is that
23 you can only re-examine on matters arising from
24 cross-examination. It is not at large. Nobody just
25 goes about asking whatever questions they like. Now
1 cross-examination may be at large, but it should be
2 relevant to the issues before the Trial Chamber. So I
3 do not know what other systems -- obviously when it
4 becomes necessary, if there are any gaps in our own
5 procedure and we find that in the interests of justice
6 it is necessary to resort to other systems, we will do
7 that. We would not allow any gaps in our rules to stop
8 us doing justice in any case before us, but for the time
9 being I have not discovered, and the Trial Chamber
10 itself has not discovered, any gap in the question of
11 examination-in-chief, cross-examination and
13 So that is what we are obliged to follow:
14 Mr O'Sullivan. Let us hear what you want to say.
15 MR O'SULLIVAN: May it please the court, it is precisely on
16 (b) of Rule 85, the first sentence ending:
17 "Re-examination shall be allowed in each case."
18 In other words re-examination in re-direct and
19 re-cross, scope being limited in each case, the scope of
20 re-examination in this case limited for clarification on
21 the in-chief. I submit that re-cross is limited to the
22 re-examination and that is consistent, I would submit,
23 with the way (a) is framed, beginning with prosecution,
24 defence, rebuttal and rejoinder. The defence has the
25 last word. That is tied in as well with final
1 arguments. The last word is given to the defence, all
2 of which flows from the burden of proof, which is
3 clearly on the prosecutor.
4 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: That is your interpretation of it. My
5 interpretation of it, which we are familiar with, is
6 that the prosecution or the person leading evidence is
7 entitled to re-examine his witness, not the person
8 cross-examining. That is the principle involved in
9 re-examination. He will examine in areas which arose
10 out of cross-examination.
11 Now let us have the witness: please let him swear
12 the witness.
13 MR BROUWERS (sworn)
14 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: You can sit down: you can begin.
15 MR OSTBERG: Thank you, your Honour.
16 Examination by MR OSTBERG
17 MR OSTBERG: Good morning. Will you please state your full
19 A. Ben Brouwers.
20 Q. And your present occupation?
21 A. I am head of the Central Department for the making of
22 construction resources at Breda.
23 Q. Is that in a military unit?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Are you a military officer or a civilian?
1 A. I am a civilian employed by the military. I work for
2 the Ministry of Defence.
3 Q. Thank you. If you stand up and have a look at the thing
4 in front of you, and you see a model of a camp by the
5 name of Celebici. Have you seen it before?
6 A. Yes, this model was made at our organisation, the CWUI.
7 Q. Of which you are the head?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. So it was done under your supervision and on your
11 A. That is correct, yes.
12 Q. You may sit down. In manufacturing this model did you
13 follow the sketches, photographs, measurements,
14 videotape, etc, done by a person by the name of
15 Mr Beelen?
16 A. Yes, that is correct, on the basis of video footage,
17 photographs, measurements, drawings, maps of the
18 buildings, we made this model.
19 Q. Did you have any other information to support you when
20 you produced it?
21 A. No.
22 Q. Thank you. Can you state just for the curiosity of
23 myself and maybe of the tribunal what is the scale of
24 the model?
25 A. The scale of this model is about 1:200. We did not
1 actually make it to scale, but we made it to size. We
2 had prior talks, how much room there would be here in
3 the court room, and we adjusted the scale accordingly in
4 conformity with the measurements and the floor plans
5 that we received from Mr Beelen.
6 Q. Thank you. That would roughly be 1:200?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. So the left from where you are silting there are two
9 houses marked letter A and letter B. Tell us about
11 A. These are two enlarged models of buildings which are
12 also on the actual model itself. After the scale model
13 was delivered here we received a request from the court
14 to make these enlarged models, because these two
15 buildings were too small on the actual model to be
17 Q. Do they have the same letter on it as they have on the
18 big model?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. And they were manufactured also under your supervision?
21 A. Yes, correct. They were made on the basis of the same
22 drawings and sketches we used to make the big scale
23 model with its buildings.
24 Q. Thank you. In respect of the original model, in what
25 scale are the bigger ones now to your left side?
1 A. We have reflected them eight times as large.
2 Q. Can the roofs of these two bigger models be lifted?
3 A. Yes, that is possible.
4 Q. I do not think we have to show it. It is possible to
5 lift them. The inside of these houses, are they made
6 from the sketches made by Mr Beelen?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Thank you very much. This concludes my questions. I
9 think I stayed within the limit of five minutes, your
11 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Any cross-examination of this
13 MR TAPUSKOVIC (in interpretation): Your Honours, thank
14 you. No questions for this witness. Thank you.
15 MS McMURREY: Your Honour, I just have one question.
16 Cross-examination by MS MCMURREY
17 MS McMURREY: I am Cynthia McMurrey and I represent Esad
18 Landzo along with Mr Mustafa Brackovic.
19 You stated in your testimony just then that a
20 request to make this models was made to you by this
21 tribunal, did you not?
22 A. That is correct.
23 Q. In fact, the exact words were "a request from the
24 court". Is that what you said?
25 A. No. The request came from my contact, who submitted an
1 initial request to make this model, and my contact is
2 Sabine Manke and Racine Manas.
3 Q. The request really came from the investigator's office
4 at the International Criminal Tribunal, did it not?
5 A. If Sabine Manke and Racine Manas work there, then that
6 is correct.
7 Q. I am sorry. I do not know who these people are. Do you
8 know what their position is with the tribunal?
9 A. As far as I know, they work for the Investigation
11 Q. And the Investigation Department is a branch of the
12 Prosecutor's Office, is it not?
13 A. I do not know.
14 MS McMURREY: I pass the witness, your Honour.
15 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: No other cross-examination?
16 MR MORAN: Nothing, your Honour.
17 MS RESIDOVIC (in interpretation): Just one question, your
19 Cross-examination by MS RESIDOVIC
20 MS RESIDOVIC (in interpretation): The gentleman stated
21 that he made his models based on the videotapes and
22 photographs and measurements provided by Mr Beelen at
23 the ratio of 1:200; is that correct?
24 A. Yes, the scale is roughly 1:200 on the basis of video
25 material, photos and measurements as provided.
1 Q. You also said that you adjusted these models to fit into
2 the court room?
3 A. When I said that it wasn't exactly 1:200 but that the
4 scale -- or rather that we took into account the
5 available space in the court room in determining the
6 scale. The proportions on the model are an exact
7 enlargement, or rather making it smaller than they were
8 originally so the exact proportions are there.
9 Q. Mr Beelen supervised your work; is that correct?
10 A. No. Mr Beelen provided me with the data and on the
11 basis of that information we made the scale model.
12 Q. In other words, your departure comes from you yourself?
13 A. The scale model has been made in accordance with the
14 information that was provided by Mr Tom Beelen.
15 Q. With certain departures, as you said?
16 A. No, without any changes. The data of the measurements
17 that were provided by Tom Beelen and those proportions,
18 and I do not know exactly now whether the scale was
19 1:200 or 1:210, but the proportion of the sizes are
20 exactly copied from the data that were provided by Tom
22 Q. Thank you.
23 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Are the models tendered in evidence?
24 MR OSTBERG: It is marked for identification as exhibits 2A
25 and B and now I tender them in evidence, your Honour.
1 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: These are -- if now admitted in
2 evidence, what exhibits are they?
3 THE REGISTRAR: We will mark it as 2A and 2B, the small one
4 2A and the big one 2B.
5 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: I think that is all for this witness.
6 MR OSTBERG: Yes.
7 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: You can stand down.
8 (The witness withdrew)
9 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Do you have any other witness for
11 MR OSTBERG: Yes, your Honour. I am now changing places
12 with Ms McHenry.
13 MS McHENRY: Good afternoon, your Honours, defence
14 counsel. The prosecution called Mrs Grozdana Cecez.
15 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: I invite the witness to the witness
16 stand: will you swear the witness, please?
17 MRS GROZDANA CECEZ (sworn)
18 Examined by MISS McHENRY
19 MS McHENRY: Ma'am, can you please tell us your full name.
20 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Is there no communication with the
22 MS McHENRY: Mrs Cecez, can you hear me through your
23 microphone? Can you please tell us your full name?
24 A. My name is Grozdana Cecez. I was born in Manigoda in
25 1949 on 19th April in Ostrozac, municipality of
1 Jablanica. I was married in 1972 in the municipality of
2 Konjic to Lazar Cecez. My husband was a traffic
3 policeman, and he retired in 1991. My village is not
4 far from Konjic. My house was about 2 kms from Konjic.
5 I built a big house.
6 Q. Mrs Cecez, just so the record is clear, am I correct
7 that you have chosen not to seek any confidentiality
8 protection regarding your identity or your testimony
9 here as a witness?
10 A. No, I didn't.
11 Q. Mrs Cecez, how far did you go in school?
12 A. Only for eight years of elementary school and I had my
13 own store in my own house.
14 Q. Was that your occupation in 1992, as a store owner?
15 A. Yes. On 19th May I took the accounts for the last time
16 to Konjic.
17 Q. Mrs Cecez, you said you were born in Jablanica. That is
18 the municipality next to Konjic municipality?
19 A. I was born in Ostrozac, municipality of Jablanica. It
20 is from Konjic in the direction of Mostar.
21 Q. In May of 1992, Mrs Cecez, where were you living?
22 A. I was living in my own house.
23 Q. In what town or village was that?
24 A. Donje Selo, municipality of Konjic.
25 Q. Your Honours, may I have this map marked for
1 identification purposes as "Government Exhibit 4"? This
2 is a map of Konjic area, which has previously been
3 provided to the defence. If you could put it on the
4 ELMO, please.
5 Mrs Cecez, do you recognise this as a map of the
6 Konjic area?
7 A. Yes, because it says "Konjic" on it.
8 Q. Can you just, using that pointer you have been given,
9 point to Konjic? This is Konjic town; correct?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Can you point to Donje Selo, where you lived in 1992?
12 A. Here it is.
13 Q. Okay. It is getting a little ahead, but as long as we
14 have the map, can you also point to the village of
15 Celebici, Mrs Cecez? (Indicating). Thank you. Your
16 Honour, at this time I with like to move into evidence
17 prosecution exhibit 4. It is a map of the Konjic area.
18 MS McMURREY: We have no objections, your Honours, from
19 Esad Landzo.
20 MS RESIDOVIC (in interpretation): We have no objection,
21 your Honours.
22 JUDGE JAN: What is the scale of this map?
23 MS McHENRY: Your Honour, in all frankness I do not know
24 and I do not believe the witness knows. It has just
25 been used --
1 JUDGE JAN: I am just asking you, not the witness.
2 MS McHENRY: Your Honour, I am sorry. I will find out if I
4 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: There is no objection on the part of
5 the defence as a whole.
6 MR MORAN: No, your Honour.
7 MR TAPUSKOVIC (in interpretation): No objection, your
9 MS McHENRY: My learned colleague tells me it is 1:50,000
10 -- metres I assume.
11 JUDGE JAN: 1:50,000 inches? 1:50,000 metres.
12 MS McHENRY: Mrs Cecez, what is your ethnic background?
13 A. I am Serbian.
14 Q. What is the ethnic background of most of the inhabitants
15 in Donje Selo in 1992?
16 A. Serbian, mostly Serbian. About 100 Serbian houses.
17 About 20 Croatian. There were 2 or 3 local Muslims.
18 They are not really born there but they were living
19 close by.
20 Q. In 1992 who lived with you in your house?
21 A. I, my husband and my two children, but my daughter left
22 on 24th April for Sremska Mitrovica.
23 Q. Was it a time when there was fighting, military action
24 or shooting in your village?
25 A. I don't know anything about that. I really do not
2 Q. Was there a time, Mrs Cecez, where you fled from your
4 A. Yes, on May 20th, when our village was attacked.
5 Q. Were you involved in the action or the fighting or any
6 defence to the attack?
7 A. No.
8 Q. Were you armed or were you a member of any armed group?
9 A. No.
10 Q. Mrs Cecez, can you tell us very briefly what happened to
11 you on 20th May?
12 A. I was digging in the garden just below our summer
13 house. I do not know what it was. I was digging onions
14 or something. I went in front of the summer house and I
15 saw a car passing by a Serbian cemetery. There was a
16 police car in front and then two or three cars, then
17 again a police car behind. My husband was sleeping. I
18 woke him up and I told him: "Here is one of your cars
20 He got up, saw them and fled behind the house.
21 Then my son was coming out of the cafe. He ran across
22 the railway line. I stayed behind, not expecting
23 anything bad to happen. When I turned to the right
24 towards the Neretva I saw a car with people coming out
25 with camouflage uniforms. Then I realised something was
1 happening. Then I too slowly crossed the railway line
2 and I reached the woods. I headed for my
4 Q. May I just ask you to go very slowly so the interpreters
5 can keep up.
6 A. I reached my mother-in-law's and my brother-in-law,
7 Trile, and another one, Milorad, was there. Our family
8 was there. So we hid below her house in the woods, and
9 when night fell, however, they started shooting as soon
10 as they got close to my house and the Arnautovics'
11 house. Then I heard someone calling on the loudspeaker
12 my husband Lazar to surrender, but he could not hear
13 because he had already fled.
14 He was not with me and my mother-in-law at that
15 moment, and when night fell they kept shooting until
16 night. Then my mother-in-law suggested that we go hide
17 in the caves. There were a number of caves there
18 between her house and my brother-in-law, Miso's, but I
19 headed for the village because my husband and son were
20 not there.
21 With Jagoda Manigoda, called 'Zaga', I headed for
22 my uncle's house, my Uncle Lazar, and I saw Ranko
23 Kuljanin, called 'Majstor'. I asked him about my
24 husband and son and he said they were there. My house
25 was already on fire. My son hugged me and said: "Do not
1 worry, mother. We'll make a new and better one if we
3 I said: "Never mind, so long as you are alive.
4 Where is Lazar?" Then I saw him, my husband. That
5 night we went towards Cerici. We were fleeing in the
6 woods but many houses were on fire. Eight or nine Serb
7 houses were burning -- Vojo Dekic's house on the right
8 side of the Neretva.
9 Then Jovo -- I can't remember his surname; he is
10 from Montenegro. Then Jovo Arnautovic's house; my
11 house; of late Mico Cecez's house -- he was a chimney
12 sweep; Milijan Cecez's; Dusan Cecez's house, an old one
13 in the village; some other houses I can't remember just
14 at this moment. So we headed for Osoj. We got there at
15 dawn. It was raining. We rested for a while. Then the
16 sun appeared, so we dried a little and then the shelling
17 started in the afternoon.
18 Bijelovcina had already been attacked too. At
19 that moment two people from Bijelovcina got killed, and
20 the night when our village was attacked Rajko Ninkovic
21 got killed first. Then somebody told me about these two
22 people from Bijelovcina who got killed. I didn't know
24 We kept retreating in the direction of Cerici.
25 Again I turned towards my mother-in-law's and the next
1 moment I reached her. I again passed by the stream
2 where we started out from. Myself and my
3 brother-in-law's daughter. Jovanka got there first.
4 Then they called me to join them in the cave. There
5 were 13 or 14 of us there. Soon we heard voices that
6 people had surrendered. There was Kuljanin Bogdan.
7 They were taken out.
8 Q. Mrs Cecez, I am going to ask you to go a little more
9 slowly, please.
10 A. From there they were taken, I suppose, to Celebici. We
11 stayed in that cave. On 21st and 22nd the men, they
12 found and some women too they took. They hadn't
13 discovered us yet and on Friday my husband and son came
14 to the cave. So they rested a little. They said we
15 shouldn't stay and wait, that we must somehow try and
16 reach Serb-controlled territory, but I stayed behind.
17 They left during the night-time about 1.30. Then two
18 sons of my brother-in-law, my brother and son, they
19 left. We stayed behind.
20 On Saturday morning again they came in front of
21 Kuljanin's hilltop. Sefko Niksic called out "Lazar" on
22 the loudspeaker: "Lazar, surrender. We won't do
23 anything", but Lazar had gone. I don't know where. We
24 stayed on. Then very heavy shooting started. We kept
25 quiet. They hurled something very powerful very close
1 to our cave. The whole cave shook. Rocks were falling
2 on us. There were two small children, the children of
3 Ferid Asanovic and his wife -- his wife was Serbian --
4 and we were afraid what would happen to those children.
5 So we didn't dare stay on, and these bullets were
6 falling on us all day until 3.30. Then it quietened
7 down a bit. Then we went to my brother-in-law Trile's
8 house. His house was still standing. We went into his
9 cellar and I waited there. Two or three nights we spent
10 there. On 25th they attacked Bradina and they took all
11 the population, mostly men, probably women too.
12 On 27th there was another attack on Donje Selo.
13 They again reached my house. What was left of it they
14 set fire to. Jelka Savic, she's a relative of mine, and
15 she said: "Sefko Niksic is calling you and Trile", my
16 brother-in-law, "to come", and we set out towards Aunt
17 Milka's house. She had a house on the hill. They
18 intercepted us, and she said that Niksic had said if we
19 didn't come, we would get a bullet. They started
20 beating Trile.
21 I couldn't watch it and Ibrahim Duro -- and he is
22 also some kind of a godson -- he said: "Do not fear.
23 Dusko is with us." Dusko is my son. "We won't hurt
24 him." So I headed with him to the cooperative centre.
25 We crossed the railway line. They put us under the
1 window of Maxim Igoda's house and I saw Trile all
2 bloody. He had a cut on his forehead. He was bleeding
3 very strongly.
4 Q. Mrs Cecez, is it the case that you were then captured or
6 A. How do I know? Anyway they took my freedom then.
7 Q. Is it the case, Mrs Cecez, that they asked you to show
8 them certain things or they were looking for something?
9 Can you please tell us about that?
10 A. They said to Trile that he had done something but he
11 hadn't done anything. They simply rounded up the
12 Serbian population. They rounded up everyone.
13 Q. Mrs Cecez, did they ask you to show them parts of your
14 house or ask them to show you where certain people were
16 A. Yes, but let me say this first. They bandaged Trile's
17 head. I was afraid. A young man had a big knife,
18 turning it around in front of him. Sefko Niksic was
19 there; Jasmin Guska was there; Zvonimir Belsa -- he was
20 my husband's commander before; Ibrahim Duro; some other
21 people I knew. I can't remember their names now. From
22 there they told me: "Where is Lazar hiding?" Sefko was
23 very aggressive. I couldn't stand when I saw the blood
24 on my brother-in-law. I wanted to sit next to him, and
25 he wouldn't let me.
1 Then we went looking for the shelter. I said: "We
2 had no shelter". Belsa Zvonimir said to me: "You do
3 have a shelter; I was told you do." I said: "There were
4 no craftsmen that made our houses that could have told
5 you. My house is on stone, on barren stone. There can
6 be no shelter."
7 Then they searched my handbag. Ibrahim took the
8 money I had. I do not remember how much was in it. He
9 told me: "Give me the money because they'll take it
10 anyway", and I gave him the money. Then we crossed my
11 garden. My house was burning, and the cafe was also
12 burning. It wasn't the first time that it was set
13 alight. Then I saw Trile's house is burning; Milijan
14 Cecez's house is burning; and then they asked Trile:
15 "Who else is left there?" He said: "My brother, my
16 mother, my wife".
17 Sefko Niksic sent some soldiers up there. Then
18 the shooting started again. They killed my
19 brother-in-law, Miso. They told him to show them the
20 cave and Trile's wife went with her. Then they told her
21 to go back. She saw that the house was alight. Miso
22 went with Sadik to the cave and that is where he killed
23 him with a burst of fire.
24 So for seven or eight days nobody knew whether he
25 was in the camp or he was somewhere around. They told
1 them that he was not in the camp and then they found him
2 dead in the cave. From there Teletovic returned to my
3 cafe, in front of my cafe and he said to Sefko: "Miso
4 has fled", but he was ill. He couldn't flee. I knew
5 that, and I thought they'd killed everybody up there,
6 the amount of shooting that went on. Then there was a
7 car of Jovo Arnautovic. We set out slowly. I was
8 wearing rubber boots, my husband's trousers, a jacket on
9 top of my mother-in-law and I had nothing else, because
10 everything was burnt down.
11 Q. Mrs Cecez, where were you brought then after you were
12 put in this vehicle?
13 A. I got to the vehicle. Then they turned around in front
14 of my house and we headed towards the railway bridge.
15 Nono Zvonimir Belsa sat with us and Sadik Teletovic. I
16 saw plastic bags and some pepper. He was a colleague of
17 this man whose house he had set light to, and he took
18 these things from his colleague's house and I thought
19 this was terrible, a terrible thing to do. Then there's
20 a cafe and the two of them got off, Nono and Sadik.
21 Sadik was yelling at me. They tied Trile's hands behind
22 his back. Trile said to me: "They're taking us to
23 Celebici", because he was working there, so he probably
24 knew better. So we went towards the Rudar. Again he
25 probably knew the road better than me. Then we entered
1 the gates.
2 Q. Mrs Cecez, let me stop you for a moment. When you say
3 they entered the gate, is it correct that they brought
4 you to Celebici?
5 A. Yes. They brought us to the camp and I stayed there for
6 some time.
7 Q. Is Celebici the name of both a village and the camp?
8 A. Yes, I believe so. I don't know. That is what we
9 called it.
10 Q. When was it then that you were brought to Celebici? Can
11 you approximate the date for us, please?
12 A. 27th May is when they took me to Celebici.
13 Q. Can you tell us where you were first brought when you
14 were brought to Celebici?
15 A. They brought us and there was a small building like a
16 reception. There was an intersection or something and
17 they made us come out, but they took my brother-in-law
18 somewhere else, and then they took me to another
19 building. There were two or three steps there. I
20 remember we turned left down the hallway. It was a
21 small room at the end of the hallway and I saw a man
22 there. I had not known him. He was sitting there.
23 Q. Mrs Cecez, let me stop you for one minute please. Mrs
24 Cecez, I am going to ask you to look at this large model
25 in front of you, prosecution exhibit 2, and tell me if
1 you can recognise that?
2 A. Yes, I can.
3 Q. Can you just point to the direction where you were --
4 the entrance of the camp that you came in?
5 A. That is where I got off.
6 Q. Okay. Thank you, Mrs Cecez. Mrs Cecez, how long did
7 you remain a prisoner in Celebici?
8 A. I was there from 27th May until 31st August.
9 Q. Can you please tell us what happened when you were first
10 brought into Celebici, and please go very, very slowly
11 and take breaks in between the sentences?
12 A. When I entered that room, it was a very small room. I
13 saw a man with a crutch. There was a crutch next to
14 him. His leg was bandaged. I don't know which one. I
15 think it was the right one, but I am not sure. I sat on
16 a chair. There was a chair in front of him. He asked
17 me who I was and what I was, and I told him, and then he
18 asked me where Lazar was, my husband, and I really
19 didn't know that. Then he started slapping me: "How do
20 you know that?" He cursed my mother. At that moment a
21 young man entered and he said: "Get out of there,
22 because you are -- there was a driver --
23 Q. I want to stop you for a moment. Are we caught up with
24 the interpretation?
25 A. "You are not worth sitting there".
1 Q. Mrs Cecez, when you first went into this room and there
2 was the person with the crutch, was that the only person
3 in the room?
4 A. Yes. He was there by himself, that man Dzajic, the
5 driver, who led me in there, and then a young man
6 entered and I didn't know anyone there. Then we were
7 told to leave that room and I think that Dzajic went
8 ahead in front of me and then we entered another room.
9 There were five beds there.
10 Q. Let me stop you for a minute, Mrs Cecez. Who was the
11 person who slapped up in the first room? Was it the
12 driver or the person with the crutch?
13 A. With the crutch, the man with the crutch, with the
15 Q. When you then went in the second room with the five
16 beds, can you tell us who went into that second room
17 with you?
18 A. This man with the crutch. At that time I didn't know
19 who he was, that little man Dzajic, the driver, and then
20 another one. I think it's -- it was Dzajic. He was -- I
21 later found out that he was in the military police, and
22 the four of us entered the room, and the one with the
23 crutch told me to take my clothes off. I didn't
24 understand what he wanted. I thought he was going to
25 beat me since he had a stick with him. He had a uniform
1 on him. Then he asked me to take off my clothes and
2 then he started taking off clothes from me. It was the
3 trousers, the skirt, the panties, and then he put me on
4 my chest and he started raping me. I didn't realise
5 that this would be happening to me, this at the end of
6 the 20th century, that someone would allow themselves to
8 Q. Mrs Cecez, can I just ask that you slow down when you
9 are telling us too? If you need a break just tell us
10 and I believe the judges will give you a break.
11 Otherwise please continue but go slowly.
12 A. Then he turned me on my back and then took off
13 everything, everything that was on me, the pants and the
14 boots and I kept the top clothes on me and he raped me.
15 Then --
16 Q. Mrs Cecez, when you say he raped you, can you please
17 tell us exactly what you mean?
18 A. Well, he took off my clothes and he took his penis and
19 he put it in my vagina. He had an erection. As I was
20 lying down he told me to sort of move and he stayed
21 about ten minutes there and Dzajic was lying on a bed
22 next to the window and the little one, Cosic -- I think
23 it is Cosic; he is from Ibar -- and he told him to stand
24 at the door, and he remained there until he was done and
25 then --
1 Q. When you say --
2 A. He trampled on my pride.
3 Q. Mrs Cecez, who was it who raped you?
4 A. The one with the crutch. At that time I still did not
5 know who he was but later I found out. Soon after that
6 I found out who and what he was. Unfortunately he
7 trampled on my pride and I will never be able to be the
8 woman that I was. Then after all there was further
10 Q. Mrs Cecez, let me just stop you for a moment. When you
11 later on learned who this person was who raped you, who
12 did you learn this was?
13 A. Hazim Delic, son of Ibro. He was born in 1962 from
14 Otohoviza, and I found out everything. He had a wife
15 and a son and he came once and I saw him then.
16 Q. Mrs Cecez, during the ten minutes that you were being
17 raped, what were you doing during that time?
18 A. I could not do anything. I was lying there and he was
19 raping me. There was -- I had no way of defending
20 myself. I couldn't understand what was going on, what
21 was happening to me.
22 Q. Were you crying, Mrs Cecez?
23 A. Yes, yes, I was, of course. I was crying. I said: "My
24 God, what have I come to live through?" He said: "It is
25 all because of Lazar. You wouldn't be here if he were
1 around", but I was completely beside myself. To trample
2 a woman's pride like that. I come from a good family.
3 It was a large clan. That is the fate. Then they left
4 and I got up.
5 I went to another bed and then and then Sok came.
6 I think he was an Albanian. He was there at the time
7 when it was a military barracks and I didn't know what
8 his duties were there. He brought me some food, and
9 then they came back, and then I said: "You're too young,
10 son. I could have been your mother. I could be your
12 Q. I want to stop you. Let me just clarify: when you were
13 in the room, you were in the room by yourself and then
14 this person Sok came; is that correct? Was there just
15 the two of you in the room?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Please tell us what happened when Sok came in and please
18 tell us about that. Mrs Cecez, I am going to ask if you
19 would not mind that you would look at me sometimes and
20 maybe with hand motions I can ask you to go a little
21 slower. Thank you. Can you please tell us what
22 happened when Sok came in the room?
23 A. Well, he came in and he started going around me and
24 started touching me and asked me to take off clothes,
25 and I started crying saying: "I could be your mother.
1 There are nice girls. I am an older woman." I said:
2 "Do you have a mother yourself?" Then he looked at me,
3 apologised and walked out the door.
4 Then soon thereafter, maybe half an hour later,
5 and I was in no shape, and two men came in. I did not
6 know them at that time. It was Pavo Mucic and Rale
7 Musinovic. I recognised Rale by a cousin of his and I
8 asked him: "Are you Rale?", and she says: "How did you
9 know?" His cousin was my husband's commander in the
10 police, and he said he was.
11 When I saw the uniform of Pavo Mucic, I was very
12 afraid that he would touch me too. I had not known the
13 man. He was asking me: "Where is Lazar? What was he
14 thinking of?" I was not clear about what he meant, so
15 that he could see that I had been touched and he said:
16 "Did anybody touch you?" I didn't dare, because Sok
17 and Delic both told me not to tell anybody, but he could
19 Q. Who was it who asked if anything had happened to you?
20 A. Pavo asked me.
21 Q. Who was it who asked you where Lazar was?
22 A. This is also Pavo. Rale didn't ask me almost anything,
23 but they could notice I had been raped because there was
24 a big trace of sperm left on the bed. When he noticed
25 that I had not had a ring on my finger, then he could
1 have noticed bigger things.
2 Q. Mrs Cecez, when you say he noticed you didn't have a
3 ring on your finger, how do you know that he noticed you
4 did not have a ring on your finger?
5 A. He asked me. He asked me: "Where is your ring?" I told
6 him that I had given it to my daughter. So they were
7 there a short time. Then they left and I stayed alone.
8 That night nobody else came to me. The next day, when
9 Sok brought me the breakfast and lunch and dinner, the
10 shades were down. I could not see anything. I could
11 not see what was going on outside. There was a toilet
12 in there. I could go there.
13 The second night again I think that they were
14 preparing for an attack. They were shouting. There was
15 ammunition there and there was a rack there and one
16 young man apologised and he said: "I am sorry that you
17 can't sleep because of us". So the second night I was
18 not bothered at all.
19 The third night I was transferred to a small
20 building at the gate, and in the meantime Dzajic told me
21 that a waitress had been moved there, that I would be
22 moved in there with her. Then he released the waitress
23 and after three days she was released, and they took me
24 to a small building at the gate. I think it was a
25 reception or something. Dzajic took me there.
1 Q. Did you know Dzajic before you were at the camp?
2 A. No, I found it all out while I was in the camp.
3 Q. Okay.
4 A. And I was remembering so that I could remember the
6 Q. Mrs Cecez, I am going to ask you, using the model -- and
7 with your Honour's permission, I will just have her
8 approach -- can you just point to the building you were
9 in at first before you were brought to what I believe
10 you refer to as the reception building? Mrs Cecez,
11 could you show the court where the buildings were that
12 you have talked about?
13 A. (Indicating) I was taken out from here and I crossed
14 over here and I entered into this building here.
15 Q. So, Mrs Cecez, the building you were in the first two
16 nights was the building that has a 'B' on it; is that
18 A. Yes, yes.
19 Q. What was that building called when you were at the camp?
20 A. I don't know. It was some command of theirs.
21 Q. Okay. Then the smaller building, the building where you
22 were then brought to on the third night, is that
23 Building A?
24 A. Yes. Yes, and this is number 22. This is number 22.
25 Q. Is that the building with the 'C' on it?
1 A. Yes, yes.
2 Q. Thank you. Can you resume your seat? Before the usher
3 leaves, I am just going to ask if you could take off the
4 roof of what is Building A, because we may use it in the
5 next testimony. The large building. I am sorry.
6 Building A. Not that one; the smaller one. Thank you,
8 Mrs Cecez, I am going to ask if you can look at
9 the building that has its roof off, and do you recognise
10 what that represents?
11 A. I was in there. This is how the building was situated.
12 Q. Mrs Cecez, let me stop you for one minute, because I am
13 pretty sure I am doing things wrong. Should I have this
14 put under the ELMO? Is that where the camera -- the
15 camera. May I ask for camera assistance in that case?
16 Whichever is easier to use.
17 Can you describe this building, this reception
18 room, for us and use the pointer, Mrs Cecez, when you
19 are describing it?
20 A. This is the main entrance.
21 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: It is not showing at all. Okay.
22 THE REGISTRAR: Could the witness speak into the microphone
24 MS McHENRY: Mrs Cecez, can you sit down and point at the
25 same time?
1 A. This is where we would come in. There was a sink and a
2 small boiler and then there was a toilet. This door was
3 closed, because there was a bed here and a stove. So
4 this door could not be opened. So we used this door and
5 then entered through here and this is where we were.
6 There was a big chest of drawers and then it was
7 removed, so it wasn't there all the time, and here I
8 could see through here -- there was a window -- who
9 was entering. When it rained the guards would usually
10 sit there.
11 Q. Thank you for now. Mrs Cecez, how long did you stay in
12 building -- the reception building?
13 A. The whole time except for the first two nights, which I
14 spent in that command building.
15 Q. Okay, and you have pointed out the room that you stayed
16 in. Can you estimate how large the room that you slept
17 in was?
18 A. I did measure it. It was -- I had a ruler and it was --
19 I was bored once and I measured it. It was 3.2 by 2.2,
20 I think, about. I forget it now.
21 Q. Okay. Was there a window in the room you stayed in?
22 A. That one there (indicating).
23 Q. Did the window have anything over it? Was it plain
24 glass or was there anything else beside the glass?
25 A. There were bars. There were bars. Some big iron bar
1 was put there.
2 Q. Do you know whether or not any of the other windows had
3 bars on them?
4 A. No.
5 Q. Okay. Can you please tell us what happened that first
6 night that you were brought to the reception building?
7 A. I entered. Little Dzajic brought me in, the driver, and
8 he pointed the toilet so that I could go there. I was
9 by myself then. There was a bed and a chest of drawers
10 and that rack for rifles. I don't know. It was made of
11 wood. It was next to the window. There was a little
12 stove there and I lie down, not expecting any misfortune
13 any more, and somewhere around 11 o'clock a young man
14 came in through the door. I had not heard him. He came
15 through that door. There was a little -- small locker,
16 cabinet there. He lighted a candle. He was a tall
17 man. He told me to take off my clothes, and I could not
18 understand what he wanted, and he said why, and he was
19 very serious. He was in a uniform. He had a knife and
20 a rifle next to him.
21 Then again I started to talk to him and I told
22 him: "What do you want? I am an old woman". He said
23 just to take off my clothes. I had a skirt and
24 underwear, and he started pulling it up, and then I
25 pulled down my trousers a little bit and then he had the
1 full reaction and he started to rape me. I started
2 talking to him but it was useless, and then he finally
3 came in my stomach and told me that I couldn't tell
4 anyone, and I looked -- I remembered who it was. I was
5 later told it was Ivica Buric, and I could not
6 understand all of this because they were all young men
7 to whom I could have been the mother, and then another
8 young man came in. He was sort of crass looking, pretty
9 ugly, and he asked me to undress, and then I started
10 crying, and he told me to undress, and then he put his
11 penis in my vagina, and then there was some rumble in
12 the adjoining room and then he jumped up and pulled up
13 his pants, and I just covered myself with the blanket,
14 and he ran out. Later I found out who it was. That was
15 Dzevad ... I knew his name and now I can't recall ...
17 I think they met in that other room, and then the
18 third one came in and the candle was still on and he
19 said: "What, somebody touched you?" I couldn't say
20 anything and there was a military cot. I was sitting on
21 the bed, and he was -- he sat down and I told him that
22 -- I told him: "Don't I know you from somewhere? You
23 may have gone to summer camp with my son". So he talked
24 to me. I do not even remember much what we talked
25 about, and then he said: "Come with me". He took me by
1 the hand, and then he laid me down and he started raping
2 me, and then after he raped me, he said -- I apologise
3 for having to say this -- "Do you see how a Turkish cock
4 can fuck?"
5 It was difficult for me. I was a woman who only
6 lived for one man and I was his all my life, and I think
7 that I was just getting separated from my body at this
8 time. After that he told me not to say this to anyone,
9 and soon the candle went out and I got up, and then
10 another man came after that. I did not see that one,
11 and he raped me too. Then after that I remained by
12 myself and I cried, and then I said how to go back to my
13 husband and my children and my family, because this is
14 very difficult, but it is a force that is beyond me, and
15 I thought what to do and I thought of calling Rale
16 Musinovic, since his cousin was the commander to my
17 husband, and in the morning I called Rale Musinovic. He
19 Q. Excuse me, Mrs Cecez. At that time did you believe that
20 Mr Musinovic was in charge of the camp?
21 A. I didn't understand.
22 Q. At the time, the next day when you called and asked for
23 Mr Musinovic, did you believe Mr Musinovic was in charge
24 of the camp or had some authority there?
25 A. I think he must have had some position, because when he
1 attacked our village, he was rounding up our women. I
2 think Mirkoloza's sister, he didn't take her with him.
3 He left her to look after her elderly father, but I
4 didn't know what a camp is or a prison, nor did I ever
5 dream that I would one day get to a prison, so that at
6 that time I really had no idea who was who.
7 Rale came in the morning. He sat down. He saw I
8 was tearful. I started crying. I begged: "Rale, kill
9 me. Do not let me stay here alone". "Why? What
10 happened?" I told him what they did to me and I cried a
11 lot. I was very upset, and then he said that it
12 wouldn't happen again, and he left. Dzajic came again,
13 this young driver, and he said that I should have closed
14 the window, but I didn't even notice that it was open,
15 that they had come in through the window. So I spent
16 the day there alone.
17 Q. Mrs Cecez, just let me stop you for one minute. Your
18 Honours, the next part of the witness' -- the events is
19 going to talk about some other women, and I would ask
20 that that be heard in private session, because I do not
21 believe she can, in fact, tell the narrative without
22 using the names. So I would ask that the next session,
23 either this evening or tomorrow morning, just for a few
24 minutes be private session, in which, as I understand
25 it, we can just for the couple of minutes while she
1 refers to this part make sure that the sound does not go
2 into the public court room, and I believe that would be
3 easier and simpler than the necessity of having a closed
4 session for this brief period of time.
5 MS McMURREY: Your Honour, Esad Landzo has no objections to
6 the procedure that Miss McHenry has described.
7 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: The Trial Chamber will adjourn now and
8 tomorrow morning we will start with a closed session for
9 that purpose.
10 (5.25 pm)
11 (Hearing adjourned until tomorrow morning)