1 Tuesday, 18th March 1997
2 (10.15 am)
3 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Good morning, ladies and gentlemen.
4 Yesterday before we rose the prosecution applied
5 certainly in respect of the continued leading of the
6 prosecution witness, and I believe no-one opposed the
7 idea that certain aspects of the examination should not
8 be disclosed to the public. Since it is agreed, I think
9 we can now continue the examination-in-chief in that
10 regard. So the prosecution should now invite the
11 witness, but with the provision of rule 79 in mind. I
12 am not familiar with --
13 MR TAPUSKOVIC (in interpretation): May I address you, your
15 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: I am not familiar with counsel
16 standing up when the judge is speaking. I am not
17 familiar with that arrangement. I did not ask you to
18 get up. You did not even ask to speak, and it is not
19 right. I was already speaking when you got up. I was
20 addressing the prosecution's application and that was
21 what we had last night.
22 MR TAPUSKOVIC (in interpretation): I apologise.
23 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Can I hear the prosecution?
24 MS McHENRY: We are ready to proceed, your Honour, and we
25 would ask that the initial part of Mrs Cecez's
1 testimony, which I would estimate would not take more
2 than ten minutes, would be in private session, to make
3 sure there is no possibility that the people in the
4 gallery can hear what is being said, because there will
5 be some names and other protected material. Thank you.
6 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: May arrangements now be made for that
7 provision? Can I hear Mr Tapuskovic?
8 MR TAPUSKOVIC (in interpretation): Your Honour, I
9 apologise. I tried to ask for the floor by raising a
10 hand. I just wished to bid you good morning on behalf
11 of my new co--counsel, who will, as of today, be
12 assisting me. He is Mr Michael Greaves, attorney from
13 Great Britain. That is all I wanted to tell you. I had
14 no intention of upsetting the order. Thank you for
15 allowing me to present Mr Greaves. Lawyer Mira
16 Tapuskovic will have the status of legal adviser to me.
17 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Thank you very much for being clear.
18 I do not want people just to pop up when the judge is
19 speaking. We welcome Mr Greaves to the team.
20 MR GREAVES: Thank you very much, your Honour. It is a
21 great pleasure to be here and I am grateful for your
22 kind wishes.
23 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Can we have the witness in now?
24 (Witness entered court)
25 (In closed session)
PAGES 508 to 512 IN CLOSED SESSION
1 (In open session)
2 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: So we now return to open session.
3 MS McHENRY: Thank you. Mrs Cecez, just a few minutes ago
4 and previously yesterday you testified about Mr Hazim
5 Delic and, in fact, you report that he raped you. Am I
6 correct that at the time that you first saw Mr Delic and
7 he raped you you did not know who he was?
8 A. I didn't know, but I learned shortly.
9 Q. Can you just tell us how it was you learned and when
10 that was, who this person was, what his name was?
11 A. The women from Bradina had come, and somebody from the
12 entrance was looking for Hazim Delic and he appeared, so
13 I realised that he was the man. He was carrying a
14 crutch and he was limping, so I knew straight away who
15 he was.
16 Q. After the day he raped you, on what occasions would you
17 have to see Mr Hazim Delic again?
18 A. I saw him quite frequently, because he would be coming
19 and going often. When I would go to the toilet, I would
20 look through the window sometimes, but he was always
21 around. He have never left. He was mostly in the camp.
22 Q. Did you hear his name on other occasions also?
23 A. Yes, I did, frequently. They would call for Hazim.
24 They would always say if one of our people would come
25 by, he would point to him, because everyone was afraid
1 of him. He was rather aggressive. At least I know how
2 he treated us women. I can imagine how he treated the
4 Q. Did he continue to use a crutch the whole time you were
5 at Celebici, ma'am?
6 A. No, no. I don't know after how long he didn't use the
7 crutch any more, but he limped a little.
8 Q. What, if anything, did you understand Mr Delic's
9 position to be in the camp?
10 A. We heard that Pavo was the most important, Pavo Mucic,
11 and he was his deputy.
12 Q. Did you ever see how the other guards acted towards
13 either Mr Delic or Mr Mucic?
14 A. I could not see. I just noticed that they all feared
15 him. On one occasion I was looking out the window in
16 the room in front of us. A young man from Baralija who
17 played the accordion, called Kurnjic, he was preparing
18 the guns. As my son played the accordion too, we knew
19 each other well, and he asked me how I was, what I was
20 doing and where my son was. So we just had a private
21 conversation, but Pavo came by in a car. He cursed me
22 and him, saying that nobody can talk to me. So I saw
23 that they too feared him.
24 Q. Going back to Mr Delic for a minute, did Mr Delic ever
25 have coffee with you?
1 A. No. No. I didn't have a coffee throughout my stay
2 except for three mornings when this one of the young
3 guards, Baralija, made some coffee, and another one. I
4 can't remember the other one's name. Anyway they
5 watched in case anybody would come by. So I had coffee
6 three mornings very early; about 4 o'clock in the
7 morning they would wake me up and give me this coffee.
8 That was the only time I had coffee in three and a half
10 Q. Mrs Cecez, at the time you were interviewed by the
11 Office of the Prosecutor in December 1995, did you give
12 a description of Mr Hazim Delic?
13 A. I didn't understand the question.
14 Q. Were you interviewed by the Office of the Prosecutor in
15 December of 1995, Mrs Cecez, by some investigators?
16 A. I think so. I think so, yes.
17 Q. And at that time did you give a statement, a written
19 A. I spoke like this and they took notes. I think this was
20 in Boriza. I can't remember the date exactly. There
21 were some people from Belgrade who came and took
22 statements from us.
23 Q. Mrs Cecez, do you remember in December of 1995 being
24 interviewed by Miss Sabine Manke from the Office of the
25 Prosecutor at this tribunal?
1 A. Yes. Yes, I came to the Hague.
2 Q. Did you give a statement at that time?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Do you remember whether or not you gave a description of
5 Mr Hazim Delic at that time?
6 A. I think I did, as far as I was able to describe him. I
7 am no expert. I just described him as I could remember
9 Q. Can you describe him as you remember him?
10 A. He was quite tall, as a man one might say good looking.
11 His hair was thinning here above his forehead, of a
12 lighter colour. That is all.
13 Q. Mrs Cecez, since you have been in The Hague here
14 starting last week, were you shown a photo-spread
15 containing six photographs of some men?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Am I correct that when asked if you saw anyone involved
18 in the events you have described, you said: "No. I am
19 not sure. No"?
20 A. I am not sure. All those pictures were of bald-ish
21 men. So I didn't dare say which one. Maybe the man has
22 changed. After all, I haven't seen him for five years.
23 So I was not sure.
24 Q. Thank you. Mrs Cecez, you testified previously that you
25 saw Mr Musinovic and Mr Mucic the first night you were
1 in the camp and later on you talked with Mr Musinovic
2 about what had happened to you; is that correct?
3 A. Yes, when I was released we talked. He would come and
4 we talked about these things in private. He said he
5 knew nothing of what was going on.
6 Q. Mrs Cecez, with respect to Rale Musinovic, other than
7 the occasions that you testified about yesterday, did
8 you have any other occasions to see or to speak with
9 Mr Rale Musinovic again while you were at Celebici?
10 A. No, I never saw him again. He went away. I do not know
11 anyway. He may have come and gone, but Pavo was there
12 all the time, and Delic in particular. There were a lot
13 of guards. They were changing.
14 Q. With respect to Mr Rale Musinovic, can you estimate how
15 long you were at the camp and then when it came to be
16 that you didn't see him ever again at the camp?
17 A. I saw him just that first night, when I was brought in,
18 on 27th. I really didn't see him again. Maybe he
19 passed by, but I didn't dare go out, so I didn't know
20 whether he was there or not. Anyway, he didn't come to
21 see me.
22 Q. Mrs Cecez, I am going to now ask you about some of the
23 general conditions at the camp, and with the court's
24 indulgence, I am going to try again to use some of the
25 exhibits to help clarify. I have been given
1 instructions since yesterday, so I can maybe do it in a
2 more helpful manner.
3 First of all, if I could ask the usher, Mrs Cecez,
4 when you were interviewed by the Office of the
5 Prosecutor in December 1995, did you draw a diagram of
6 the reception building, as you remembered it?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. May I put please --
9 A. I did.
10 Q. May I please have the document I have just given to your
11 Honour earmarked as prosecution exhibit 5 for
12 identification purposes? Defence counsel has previously
13 been provided with this copy and there are three extra
14 copies for your Honours. If that document could be put
15 on the ELMO now, please.
16 Mrs Cecez, do you recognise this as the diagram
17 you drew in 1995, with just some additional red
18 markings, which are translations of the Serbo-Croatian
19 words? This, if this is the diagram you drew in 1995 or
20 a copy of it, can you just please say "yes"?
21 A. Yes, yes, it is. I am not an expert, but I drew it as I
22 could remember it.
23 Q. Mrs Cecez, I am first going to ask that you show the
24 court, using that diagram -- explain the reception house
25 and what you did there, and then I am going to also ask
1 you to do the same thing using the model of the building
2 that you used briefly yesterday. Can you just take us
3 through this building. First of all, can you show us
4 where the entrance to the reception house was?
5 A. This was the entrance. This was the direction for the
7 Q. Please slow down and stop for a minute. Can we just
8 have the translation of that? I am sorry. Can you show
9 us where the front gate to the entire camp was,
10 Mrs Cecez?
11 A. Here, just there.
12 Q. Then you showed us the entrance. Then what is the room
13 just -- what is the first room that you come to when you
14 entered the reception building?
15 A. This is the first room.
16 Q. Okay. Staying with the first room, can you describe --
17 what are the things that you have marked on the side of
18 the first room?
19 A. Here I marked the glass was on this side. This was in
20 the direction of Celebici, and this was towards the
21 village, and this was a window I could use to see number
22 9. That is where people were kept mainly from Bradina,
23 were imprisoned there.
24 Q. Just to clarify, tunnel number 9 is where most people
25 were kept from Bradina; correct?
1 A. Yes, mostly from Bradina.
2 Q. Through the window you just pointed to, you could see
3 towards the tunnel and see the tunnel; is that correct?
4 A. I could see the entrance to the tunnel, so when I dared
5 to look, I could see people coming and going.
6 Q. Okay. Can you then show -- continuing with that room,
7 were there any doorways in that room?
8 A. Yes. There was this door that we used, and there was
9 another door here, but it couldn't be opened, because
10 there was a bed and a stove, so that it was blocked. So
11 we never opened this door. So we entered this way and
12 then we used this door. There was a window here. There
13 were iron bars on this window. This was the gun rifle
15 Q. Then when you needed to go to the toilet, Mrs Cecez, can
16 you show us how you would do that?
17 A. We would go out of this door and then come round this
18 way, so that sometimes when I was going to the toilet, I
19 could look through this window to see what was happening
21 Q. Pointing to the room where you slept, is this the room
22 that at one point there were seven of you; is that
23 correct? Where was the room you slept, Mrs Cecez?
24 A. Here. We were all in here.
25 Q. Okay. All the women were kept in that one room; is that
2 A. Yes, all of us.
3 Q. Where did you eat, Mrs Cecez?
4 A. They would mostly give us food through this window.
5 Then they would hand us the food through the window.
6 Then we would go inside and eat. There was a little bed
7 table and we would use it as a table to eat on.
8 Q. Where did you wash, Mrs Cecez?
9 A. We didn't have any place to wash. There was no hot
10 water. There was no electricity straight away, so that
11 we could not wash at all. Then we had a plastic jug,
12 about 1 litre or 1 litre and a half. It was blue, I
13 remember. So we would wash our underwear. We didn't
14 dare go out. So sometimes we would urinate in that jar
15 and spill it in the morning, so that that jar was used
16 for everything. There was five or sometimes seven of
17 us. Throughout the time I spent there, we got one and a
18 half cups of detergent and two soaps. That is all for
19 the three and a half ...
20 Q. Now, Mrs Cecez, I am going to ask you just in a more
21 brief fashion even to use the model of the building on
22 your other side, which has been marked as prosecution
23 exhibit 2A, and see -- can you just also walk us through
24 that room using the pointer also please? If I could
25 have assistance with the camera for this.
1 Mrs Cecez, I am going to ask that you use that
2 larger model, if the usher could show her 2A, which I
3 believe is that small house. Yes. Can you just show us
4 where the entrance is, where you slept and where the
5 windows were for that building.
6 A. Sorry. I can't hear.
7 Q. Can you just please, Mrs Cecez, show us, using that
8 model of the reception building, where the entrance was,
9 what the rooms were and where the windows were?
10 A. I am sorry. I can't hear.
11 Q. It may be close enough that she can just use the regular
13 THE USHER: Try it again.
14 MS McHENRY: Can you hear me now, Mrs Cecez?
15 A. No.
16 Q. She should be able to just use the microphone attached.
17 Can you, just using that model, Mrs Cecez, just
18 show us where the entrance was, where you stayed was?
19 A. There were a couple of steps here, (indicating). We
20 could enter either side. Then we went in this way.
21 This was the room with the glass with bars. We used
22 this door and the bed was here. I slept here.
23 Afterwards there were the mattresses down there and the
24 wooden rack stayed on. This door was blocked by a bed
25 and a stove, so that this door could not be opened.
1 Q. Can you show us the toilet and the sink?
2 A. Yes. There was a sink here and a small boiler, which
3 they switched on afterwards, so we had hot water, and
4 there was a toilet. There was no toilet bowl but it was
5 one of those crouching down toilets.
6 Q. Okay. Thank you. You may resume your seat. Mrs Cecez,
7 can you tell us about the food, what kind of food and
8 how much food you got when you were at the camp?
9 A. The food was terrible. That was what we lacked most.
10 For 42 days we got a piece of bread. We women had some
11 water. The men couldn't get any, so that Milojka, the
12 one who was with me, she could hardly stand on her feet
13 and on the fourth day she said: "I'll kneel before
14 Delic just to give me a crust of bread." She could
15 hardly speak. I was stronger and I could still stand.
16 Later they gave us some food, but what they did give us
17 was just thin soup, some beans, not even boiled
18 properly, still hard. The food was very bad.
19 Afterwards they aloud food to be brought in, and Hazim
20 Delic, if he was nearby, he would throw in the food,
21 because I had lost a lot of weight. I had lost 34
22 kilos. I felt very, very sick.
23 Q. Mrs Cecez, what do you mean when you say he would throw
24 in the food?
25 A. My sister would bring some food in Brdani. Her son was
1 in prison there too. I don't know how many kilometres
2 away it is. Maybe about 10 kms, I think more. She
3 would bring some food, and as soon as she said it was
4 for Grozda, he would say: "She doesn't need it. She
5 will be executed anyway." So he would throw it away.
6 He would ask who brought the food and she ran away.
7 Afterwards she would come at the end of the row, hiding
8 from him, and when he would go away. Then she'd run
9 past the women and somehow -- sometimes she managed to
10 have the food passed on to me.
11 Anyway I knew nothing about my family. They
12 wouldn't let anyone come and visit me, talk to me.
13 Milojka and I whispered most of the time, so I thought
14 if I survived, I would never dare to speak aloud. Not
15 one of the Serbs would. We felt such fear, and I think
16 everybody else did, and that was how we were tormented.
17 I did not change, as a woman, for a month and a half.
18 Q. Mrs Cecez, was there ever an occasion when a guard
19 brought you some extra food?
20 A. Yes. Masic. May God reward him and his family! He
21 often would bring us some macaroni, a piece of bread,
22 but this was something enormous for me, because at least
23 for me and us women he was a good man. I don't know how
24 he treated others, but I will always remember him as a
25 good man.
1 Q. Okay. Other than the room you slept in and your trips
2 to the toilet facilities, Mrs Cecez, did you ever go
3 outside while you were at the camp?
4 A. Yes, I remember one night. I think it was the end of
5 July, somewhere around then. A guard came for me at
6 night and said that the military police was calling me,
7 Hazim Delic. I apologised but I had my period at the
8 time and I said I couldn't. My stomach hurt. I
9 couldn't go anywhere.
10 Then I suppose he told them that I couldn't come
11 out and then Hazim Delic stormed in, cursed my mother.
12 "What are you waiting for?" Then he grabbed me. I
13 couldn't put on my rubber boots. I took Milojka's
14 shoes. I didn't know what they were going to do to me.
15 When I went out, outside the building, I saw a
16 blue car. It was turned in the direction of the
17 hangars. It headed for number 9. I was handed over to
18 Sok, the small Albanian, who were there. Hazim Delic
19 was shouting. He said: "Take her away." I was
20 crying. I begged Sok: "Don't take me with you, I beg
21 you." I thought they were going to kill me or to put me
22 in a manhole, because there were stories about a manhole
23 in which they put men. Then he said: "We have to go
24 because they'll kill both of us."
25 So I passed by number 9. The car went on in front
1 of a barracks. It stopped. The light went out. I saw
2 three or four soldiers standing there. The lights went
3 out. Then a civilian approached me. He took me by the
4 hand and led me past the hangar. There were lots of
5 boards there. We had no claim over them. He probably
6 knew where he was going. There was no light. He took
7 me to the end of the hangar. There was a bed. We sat
8 down. He started touching me. I started crying: "Don't
9 touch me. I have my period." I know nothing of my
10 family. On 5th June all my Cecezes were killed. My
11 neighbours, many of them, were killed. My waitress told
12 me the second or third day. They took her brother away.
13 Q. Mrs Cecez, if you would like a break at any time, please
14 tell us and we can have a short break.
15 A. No. I can go on. It's all right.
16 Q. What happened when you were talking about this person
17 and telling him about your family, Mrs Cecez?
18 A. I was crying. I was mentioning Milijan Cecez, Velimir,
19 Zeljko, Pero, Mirko, Vlado, all my Cecezes, my Miso, my
20 brother-in-law, who was killed. I still didn't know
21 what had happened to my husband and son. My close
22 family relatives, four of them were killed.
23 Ninkovices. We had godfather relations among our
24 families. His brother Stevo. Kuljanins were killed,
25 Predrag, Djivak Noviza, another son of Branko.
1 So I mentioned all of them by name, but he didn't
2 care. All he said was: "We won't talk about that.
3 Let's talk about sex." Then he threw me over and he
4 started raping me, and I apologise, but I took the blood
5 with my right hand and I marked his left shoulder with
6 it to show him that I really had a period, and he smelt
7 of brandy, and when he finished, he took me out.
8 The car turned around. I sat in the car. This
9 young man drove me back. I do not remember his name.
10 He was there all the time driving this car, and then I
11 went out in front of the reception. The guards were
12 sitting on the other side of the road. I went to the
13 toilet to wash. I went back. Milojka was standing
14 there holding a match. She was shivering. She said:
15 "Where are you? Are you all right?" That was the last
16 time they raped me. They didn't rape me any more, but I
17 saw and heard lots of things.
18 Q. When you were inside the hangar and the man started
19 raping you, Mrs Cecez, can you just please tell us what
20 he did to you?
21 A. Well, he did whatever he wanted. He put his penis in my
22 vagina and he had his satisfaction. He was Norco
23 Tabak. He was born in 1950, I found it out later. He
24 has a child. I think it is definite that Norco Tabak
25 was a weapons repair person. He had a Renault car.
1 Anyway, it's him. Maybe I did not point out that on the
2 third night when I was first in the camp, when I first
3 -- the third young man who raped me was Ismed Bajazit.
4 He is half-Albanian and his mother was from Celebici.
5 Those are the people that I remembered, and the last one
6 I do not because the candle went out. After a while --
7 Q. Mrs Cecez, can I move you to a time. Were you ever
8 taken out to have a shower?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Can you please tell us what occurred on that occasion?
11 A. On one occasion, and I will tell this now, there were
12 still women from Bradina there. They told us that some
13 gentlemen were coming and that we should come out and be
14 introduced, and Pavo Mucic told me and the others.
15 Probably he told too that we needed to wash up, and I
16 told him that I didn't have anything else to wear,
17 because I was wearing the same set of clothes all the
18 time, and he told us that if we did not go and wash up
19 that he would hose us down the next day.
20 Then later on another occasion they came for me to
21 go to wash up, and I went to the command building.
22 There were three or four stalls, and I went in one of
23 them to take a shower. I didn't dare take off my
24 clothes. Masic came and he was standing at the door. I
25 washed my hair and I peeked to see what the man was
1 doing and he was just smoking silent. Then I washed my
2 feet and then Hazim Delic walked in, and he said:
3 "Didn't I tell you? Who is commander here? Do
4 this.". I realised that he told him to do something.
5 However --
6 Q. Who was Mr Delic talking to, you or --
7 A. He was talking to the guard, to Masic, and I was still
8 in the stall. So when I came out Masic told me:
9 "Grozda, stay here and dry your hair".
10 Then I realised that he was probably telling him
11 to rape me, but he was a good man and he never did
12 anything to me. Then I later went back to the room and
13 they took Milojka, and Milojka went there and she stayed
14 there for a while. When she came back, she was crying,
15 and she told me that while she was washing up that Hazim
16 Delic raped her, and then she came back. So that he
17 took Milojka whenever he wanted, and he must have been
18 talking to others to come to me, because they were
19 coming to me. But she was a virgin before, and she had
20 never been with a man, and she said that she would never
21 get married, and so it was very difficult for her.
22 Q. Mrs Cecez, let me direct your attention to another
23 question, which is: were you ever asked to do any kind
24 of chores while you were at the camp?
25 A. No, except to clear out the small building where we
1 were. It was very filthy in there. Even the toilet was
2 plugged up, and so we somehow managed to clean it up.
3 Then in front of the building a little bit we swept.
4 There was a trash bin behind that building, and I
5 remember on one occasion -- I remember well -- I swept
6 and shortly thereafter I was called out to sweep again
7 and I told them I had just swept. They said: "No, come
8 again". They told me to sweep towards the gate, and at
9 the gate there was a machine gun. It was sort of built
10 between some concrete blocks, and as I stopped over
11 there, the shooting started and Pavo Mucic was there at
12 the machine gun, and I believed that the bullets just
13 burnt me passing here. I am a woman. I don't know why
14 he was doing that to me; just a woman. Then they told
15 me to go back.
16 I went back and Milojka was very scared, and she
17 said: "Are you alive?" I think he was just intimidating
18 me. I don't know why he needed that for. That is what
19 I lived through.
20 Then I saw our men being tortured coming out of 9.
21 Q. Mrs Cecez --
22 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Miss McHenry, do you mind that we have
23 a short break now for twenty minutes?
24 MS McHENRY: No, your Honour. I think that is a good
25 idea. Thank you.
1 (11.20 am)
2 (Short break)
3 (11.45 am).
4 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Please invite the witness to resume
5 her evidence.
6 JUDGE JAN: Just for information, how long will you take
7 more with this witness?
8 MS McHENRY: Your Honour, I would estimate another hour to
9 hour and a half.
10 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Please remind her she is still on
12 THE REGISTRAR: I should like to remind you that you are
13 testifying under oath.
14 MS McHENRY: May I proceed, your Honour?
15 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Yes, you may.
16 MS McHENRY: Mrs Cecez, I would just like to clarify what
17 we were talking about right before the break, please.
18 First of all, the time that you were asked to go outside
19 and sweep, can you give us an estimate of when this was,
20 what month or when about you had been there?
21 A. I can't recall.
22 Q. Can you just tell us when you went, where was this
23 machine gun?
24 A. Right at the entrance, at the gate, up on the upper side
25 of the street. As you enter through the gate, it would
1 be on the right-hand side.
2 Q. Okay. Who was there shooting and in what direction was
3 the shooting going on?
4 A. The fire was in the direction of the village of
5 Bijelovcina. It was more like in the air, but I was
6 very close, so I could feel the bullets flying past my
8 Q. And who was it who was shooting?
9 A. Pavo Mucic.
10 Q. Okay. Now, during the time you were at the camp did
11 Mr Mucic ever come and ask you about your treatment?
12 A. No, he did not. Only once on one occasion he came with
13 a young girl, and they were there a very short time. He
14 didn't ask us anything, how we were or otherwise. After
15 I was released I asked him. He didn't help me and I --
16 Q. Mrs Cecez, I am going to ask you about that, but I would
17 like to go forward. Did you ever ask for -- while you
18 were at the camp, did you ever ask for the opportunity
19 to speak with Mr Mucic?
20 A. Yes, often times, and the guards either didn't pass the
21 messages on to him or he didn't want to come. In any
22 event, he never came.
23 Q. During the time you were at the camp, were you ever told
24 why you were being imprisoned there?
25 A. For the most part, they did not. On one occasion a
1 guard said: "You will be here until we find Lazar." So I
2 think I was there as a kind of a hostage all that time
4 Q. Were you ever interrogated or brought to a formal
5 interrogation, where you were asked questions?
6 A. On one occasion they took me to the command building,
7 and they asked me: "Where is Lazar? Where is your son?
8 What were they thinking? What did they want?" I did
9 not know what they wanted or what they thought because
10 they were at home when the attack came, and my husband
11 was asleep and my son was in the coffee shop.
12 Q. Do you remember who it was who asked you these
14 A. I do not know. There were some young men. I do not
16 Q. Was this -- when was this during your time in the camp?
17 In the beginning or the middle or the end, if you can
18 tell us?
19 A. Towards the beginning. The women from Bradina were
20 still around with me.
21 Q. Did they take a signed statement from you?
22 A. I do not know if I signed anything. They almost didn't
23 ask anything. They were just sort of offhand questions.
24 Q. Did you ever have occasion to ask any other official
25 about why you were being kept or when you would be
1 released, any other officials from Konjic?
2 A. Rusmir Hadzihuseinovic came to me one time and told me
3 to come to the front room with three windows. He was
4 outside and the window was open and I came in. He asked
5 me, as I stood there, how I was, kind of in a quiet
6 voice, and I shrugged, and he said: "Your Lazar is not
7 guilty of anything. I didn't find him in any books."
8 That is what he told me. I asked him: "Why am I here?
9 When are you going to let me go?" He shrugged and didn't
10 respond to that.
11 Q. Can you estimate at all when this was? In the beginning
12 or the middle or towards the end?
13 A. That was, I think, some time in August, I think in early
14 August, because shortly thereafter the Red Cross came to
15 register us. Even though they were hiding us from the
16 Red Cross, and they said: "Sweep this well. You can't
17 go out. You can't watch", I was impatient. On one
18 occasion I looked through the window and I saw a car
19 approaching. That was the Red Cross, but I managed to
20 wave through the window. There was a blond young man.
21 He was the driver, and while the gate was opening, they
22 were looking at me. That was on 12th August, and they
23 registered us. So we told them what was going on.
24 Q. Mrs Cecez, let me go back for a minute. When you said
25 you had this conversation with Mr Rusmir
1 Hadzihuseinovic, did you know him before?
2 A. Yes, I knew him quite well, because when I opened the
3 coffee shop, he spent all night there with his wife, and
4 they were friends with my husband from before, and his
5 brother built a house in the village, and that is how I
6 was known and people knew me at Konjic because I had a
7 shop. Pavo Mucic told me he knew me because of my
8 shop. I didn't know him, because I was interested in my
10 Q. Mrs Cecez, do you know what position, if any, Mr Rusmir
11 had in Konjic?
12 A. I heard that he was the President of the War Presidency
14 Q. The time you just told us about, was that the only time
15 you saw Mr Rusmir in Celebici?
16 A. Yes. I did not see him again.
17 Q. Okay. Mrs Cecez, you have already told us about your --
18 about when you were raped. Can I ask you to please tell
19 us what, if anything, you observed concerning how
20 Milojka Antic was being treated? What did you observe
21 about what happened to her?
22 A. I simply saw when Hazim Delic would come 12 o'clock day
23 time. He would make me go to the front room and he
24 raped her in broad daylight, as they say, and after the
25 Red Cross visit, he came again and raped her, so that
1 the second time when they came, we told them and they
2 couldn't believe it, and then he would come again and
3 take her out and take her to some room somewhere.
4 Q. Can you estimate how often during your time at the camp
5 Mr Delic would come and either take Mrs Antic out or
6 make you go into another room?
7 A. I don't remember how many times. I think Milojka knows
8 better, but I know that he did take her out on. One
9 occasion a young man came to Milojka at night and he
10 told me that: "Hazim Delic is looking for you", and I
11 started crying. He said: "The military police is
12 looking for you."
13 I got out and it was a full moon and Jamo
14 Derizovic came into Milojka. I looked and saw there was
15 no Hazim, there was no military police. There was his
16 rifle under the window for a while. I stood there and
17 Sejo Habibija, my understanding was he was a commander
18 of their guards, and he -- I told him: "Sejo, this is a
19 shame what is going on". He said -- somebody came and
20 heard that I was talking to him. He came out quickly.
21 I don't know if he did anything. I don't know if
22 Milojka wanted to tell me what happened or not. Then
23 Kemo came out and I don't know if he was criticised
24 later or not, but half an hour later he came back and he
25 said: "Don't be afraid. Sleep in peace, because
1 somebody I think wanted to come in but I didn't let
2 them." So there were always problems. We could never
3 sleep in peace. We were always afraid of what may
5 On one occasion we were planning on committing
6 suicide. I had a pin, a metal pin, and I went to where
7 the bathroom was, and I told Milojka: "I'll do it
8 first. I'll go first and then you come after me." Then
9 she took me by the shoulders and pulled me out, because
10 I thought of putting the hairpin into the socket, but --
11 so that we stayed there and there were many things that
13 Q. Mrs Cecez, did you ever -- the incident that you talked
14 about before the break, when you were brought out for a
15 shower and then later Mrs Antic was brought out for a
16 shower, was that on the same day that the two of you
17 were brought out?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Can you give us --
20 A. Yes. I went there first and then I was returned and
21 then Milojka was taken there.
22 Q. Do you have any kind of estimate as to approximately
23 when this was?
24 A. I think it was in early June. I do not remember. I
25 think it was -- it must have been in June, in June,
1 because I remember when I was coming back Milijan
2 Kuljanin was being beaten in front of number 22, and
3 Grozda saw what we were doing to Mici because I could
4 not confirm I saw anything. So it was some time in
6 Q. I am going to go back for a minute just to see if I can
7 clarify. Do you remember whether or not when Mr Mucic
8 was playing with the machine gun, shooting into the air
9 -- do you remember whether or not the women from
10 Bradina were still in Celebici at that time?
11 A. No. No. It was just myself and Milojka.
12 Q. Now, Mrs Cecez, I am going to ask you whether or not
13 there was any other time that some women were brought in
14 in particular from Zukici, and I am going to ask you not
15 to mention their names at all, but can you just tell us
16 about what happened. May I just have one second, your
17 Honour? (Pause).
18 Mrs Cecez, can you just tell us what, if anything
19 -- whether or not there was a time when some people
20 were brought in from Zukici, and please don't mention
21 any names. If it is hard for you to tell the story
22 without mentioning names, please just tell me and we'll
23 go into private session?
24 A. Let me tell you I can mention those women.
25 Q. Please don't mention their name, though, because we are
1 not in private session. First of all, can you tell us
2 when approximately it was that these people were brought
3 from Zukici?
4 A. They were brought on 12th July 1992, badly beaten, and
5 they started yelling: "We're bringing in the Cetniks.
6 We're bringing in the Cetniks. Open the gates." We
7 didn't know who it was. There were screams, women, and
8 Milojka and I were wondering who it was. Then they
9 brought in women. There were younger and older. One
10 was maybe 65, maybe even older, pretty old, and she was
11 very badly beaten. They were all beaten up. Their sons
12 and husbands were brought with them, some fifty of
13 them. I don't know if there were five men maybe there.
14 They stayed there the night.
15 Q. I am sorry. About how many men and how many women were
16 brought in approximately, if you know?
17 A. There were five women and maybe five men, as far as I
18 can tell.
19 Q. Okay. What was the youngest of the women who were
20 brought in?
21 A. There was a young girl some 13 years of age, and she was
22 beaten up too, and she was complaining to her mother
23 that her arm hurt. She was a wonderful young girl. So
24 three women were brought in and they lied down, and they
25 were not saying that there were any others with them,
1 and the mother of this young girl came to the door, and
2 I saw -- she opened the door and she didn't have a place
3 to lie down. The rest of the women were pretty good
4 size, and I told her to come over to Milojka and me and
5 she still was not mentioning her daughter, and then
6 Hazim Delic brought this girl and he said: "Find a place
7 for her to lie down." Then we will put a little
8 mattress there for her. Milojka got up and the young
9 girl bent down, and then a man from Foca came and he
10 said --
11 Q. Mrs Cecez, please finish your sentence, but then I have
12 a question for you?
13 A. He said: "Why did you let her come and lie down?"
14 Q. Mrs Cecez, is it the case then that the women, including
15 the mother, were brought in and then the daughter was
16 brought in later; is that correct?
17 A. Yes, later, and when her mother lay down next to me, she
18 said: "Did they do anything to you?" I told her to keep
19 silent. Then Delic brought this young girl and then we
20 accommodated her, and he said: "Not one hair should be
21 missing from this beauty." This man from Foca came and
22 said: "Why did you let them lie down on these
23 mattresses?" So they got off. When he left, I told
24 them to get on to the bed again.
25 Then in the morning Salko came and some other
1 young man. He put a beret on his head and pulled out a
2 knife and he started screaming: "Who is bringing food to
3 the Cetniks?" The young girl said: "Who is going to
4 bring them any food in that... high voice of hers that
5 she had. She said: "What food?" We didn't have any.
6 Q. Please slow down. Then what happened, please, slowly?
7 A. She was brought out to the room next to ours.
8 Q. Who was brought out to the room next to yours?
9 A. This young girl, the 13-year old, and then two or three
10 of them were, but I know that Salko was among them. I
11 don't know his last name. Then one of them came and
12 said: "Bring her back in and don't step into the blood."
13 Her mother said: "Don't worry. They won't do
14 anything", and her mother was sick and I went in to
15 bring in the girl. They didn't do anything. They just
16 wanted to frighten us.
17 Q. Please slow down, please, Mrs Cecez. Okay.
18 A. I came to the women and sat down next to the mother, and
19 soon thereafter Pavo Mucic came, opened the door. He
20 saw the women. "Who brought you here? Where are you
21 from? Why were you brought here?" They were shrugging.
22 "So what does it mean, that you were only beaten up?"
23 One woman said: "Yes".
24 Then he asked the young girl -- I remember the
25 words very well: "My child, are you afraid?", and she
1 said: "Yes, of course, of course. How can I not be
2 afraid?" There were tears. He told her to get ready
3 and he would take her home.
4 So they started getting up but the older woman
5 could not get up and I didn't dare go past the door, and
6 the women were put in the Iveco van and Pavo Mucic took
7 them to Zukici.
8 Later the young girl's mother told me when he
9 brought them there, she asked to be brought back to
10 Konjic to get some flour from her brother who lived
11 there, and later a Redzo Balic killed those women. I
12 found it out from Milojka's sister on one occasion.
13 Milojka's sister came.
14 Q. I am now going to ask you 00 to talk to you about
15 another thing. Can you please tell us what contact, if
16 any, you had with the men prisoners at the camp?
17 A. No, only when they passed or if they were doing
18 something in front of the window, I could sometimes say:
19 "Hello". Zelenovic and his brother, Toco, were in the
20 room in front of us. They were drawing something. One
21 of the Muslims was being depicted on a horse. He was a
22 good artist. So sometimes I could talk to him, but not
23 with any others, only when they passed by occasionally.
24 Q. Did you ever have occasion to see any mistreatment of
25 any of the men prisoners?
1 A. Yes, I did. I didn't dare go out often, but sometimes I
2 would risk it. In the morning, for instance, when they
3 would open and allow men to use the toilet, the men in
4 number 9, so the groups of eight to ten would come out
5 with their heads bent down, looking at the ground. They
6 would run towards the hole or whatever there was. Some
7 of them never reached the place. They would have to
8 come back. Then I watched to see whether they would
10 Q. Mrs Cecez, when you say some of them never reached the
11 place and had to come back, what do you mean that they
12 never -- can you please explain that?
13 A. I watched. Slavko Susic. He couldn't reach it. He got
14 halfway and then he went back, but I'll come back to
15 that. Then I'd watch to see whether these men would
16 wash. There was a tap near number 9, but no, they went
17 back. The last group would carry the bucket which was
18 used for urination at night, and then they had to take
19 it back to the tunnel.
20 Then I watched them being forced for hours to
21 stand with their hands up against the wall. Some of
22 them would faint. Then it would rain again heavily, and
23 again they would be lined up against the wall with their
24 heads down, and the rain would drench them, and then
25 they would be forced back into number 9 without any
1 possibility to change.
2 Q. Mrs Cecez, where were you when you could see these
4 A. In that room with three windows, and when the guard was
5 not there, I could watch, because, of course, secretly,
6 so that nobody would see me. So I'm sure there was much
7 more torture that I couldn't see, but what I did see, I
8 am able to testify to, because I saw it with my own
10 Q. Mrs Cecez, I am just going to ask that you use the
11 model. Maybe the usher could give her the pointer. Can
12 you show the court where you were and the area you were
13 able to see, the area where the men were forced to be
14 against the wall?
15 A. Here is number 9 and I would watch from here. This is
16 the window from which I could see.
17 Q. When you say that the men sometimes had to be against
18 the wall, what wall are you referring to?
19 A. This one here. They would stand here. Afterwards they
20 could sit. Then they would have to run around, to
21 imitate cars. Then Hazim Delic would be sitting here,
22 and they would have to run around, first, second, third
23 gear, reverse, until they would fall. I remember
24 Desimir Mrkajic, he was the heaviest build, and he would
25 run after them. He had some boots on his feet and I
1 felt so sorry for them. Then they would be forced to
3 Q. Who would run after them?
4 A. They all had to run, but this Desimir, he was a prisoner
5 too, because I knew him. So I was terribly sorry. He
6 was tall and heavy. That man was quite a well-to-do
7 owner, and I remember him well, and he was forced to do
9 Q. You may sit down, please. Just so I understand, was it
10 Mr Mrkajic who was forced to do these things also, or
11 was he forcing other people to do them? Who was forcing
12 the prisoners to do things, to act like cars?
13 A. Delic. Delic.
14 Q. Was Mr Desimir Mrkajic one of the prisoners who was
15 forced to run around and pretend he was a car?
16 A. No. Vukasin Mrkajic was first. There was quite a
17 number of them. I do not remember how many. But
18 Desimir was the last one. He was the end. He was always
19 the last in line. I felt especially sorry for him,
20 because his mother didn't have a leg and I was somehow
21 sorry for him.
22 Q. If I may, Mrs Cecez, I am just going to ask for you to
23 look at your video screen, and I would ask the camera
24 people to show the excerpt of prosecution exhibit 3,
25 which has been admitted into evidence. Mrs Cecez, I am
1 going to ask you to watch this and tell us if you can
2 recognise this. I believe it was to start at section
3 minute 9.34 of the videotape, prosecution exhibit 3.
4 This is just a one-minute excerpt, your Honours. (Video
5 presentation). that is enough. Thank you. Mrs Cecez,
6 were you able to recognise what was shown there?
7 A. I think that must have been number 9.
8 Q. From tunnel number 9 then could you see the reception
9 building where you were kept at the end?
10 A. Yes, when they went out they could always see my
12 Q. You could see them from your building also; is that
14 A. Yes, yes. When I was in this front room with the three
16 Q. Mrs Cecez, can you tell us what, if anything, you saw
17 happen to Mr Slavko Susic? Let me ask you to go very
18 slowly and take breaks in between your sentences,
20 A. Slavko Susic, I would see him passing behind the wire.
21 His parents were in the village probably. He would pass
22 by almost daily.
23 Q. Mrs Cecez, at this time was Mr Slavko Susic not a
24 detainee at Celebici? He was just living in the
1 A. He was living, yes. I remember one morning this
2 Baralija told me -- this Baralija was a guard, and he
3 said: "Grozda, they brought in a man from Celebici.
4 What they are doing to him, apparently he has a radio
5 station. That is why he has been captured." I would
6 make it up just to save him from this beating, and then
7 I immediately thought it might be Slavko and then I saw
8 he didn't pass by as usual and I learned that it was
9 indeed Slavko.
10 Then in the morning, when they were going to the
11 toilet, I could see that he couldn't come out. He was
12 crawling, because he had rubber boots, genes and on one
13 occasion I was sweeping in front. He was standing with
14 Delic just in front of my building where I was kept.
15 They were talking. I couldn't hear. I couldn't follow
16 what they were saying. He was all black and blue,
17 beaten up, filthy. He was half dead. I don't know how
18 to describe him for you. He was saying something.
19 Then he sat down. He sat in an Iveco with Delic,
20 a van. Then they went out of the gates. I asked one of
21 the guards: "Where did Slavko go?" He said: "He went to
22 find the radio station. I think he has gone mad.
23 Sometimes he says he has one; sometimes he doesn't." If
24 they don't find it, Delic told him he would get a bullet
25 in his head."
1 So I was very restless. I was waiting for the
2 Iveco van to come back. It came back I don't know after
3 how long. I didn't dare go out, because I knew Slavko
4 from before. He's the son of my aunt's brother. So he
5 would come to visit while I was still unmarried. He was
6 a teacher by profession. Then I peeped out as if to
7 bring water. I saw that the guard was not there. Then
8 I looked through the window again in the direction of
9 number 9, and he was standing again against the wall in
10 front, Delic --
11 Q. Who was standing against the wall in front?
12 A. Slavko. They had forced him to face the wall with his
13 hands up. He had a stick, I think. It was this long.
14 It was quite thick, and he started beating him. So I
15 was peeping from behind the window frame so as not to be
16 noticed. He beat him. The stick broke I think about
17 this -- a piece this size broke off.
18 Q. Who was beating Slavko?
19 A. Hazim Delic. He threw away this piece that had broken
20 off and then he started beating him again. It was
21 terrible. When Slavko fell, he started kicking him. I
22 went back to tell Milojka what I had seen. There was
23 another soldier next to Hazim. I don't remember
24 exactly, but I think it was Makaron, but I'm not sure, I
25 must say. I've forgotten. So I didn't dare go out
1 again. After maybe about 15 or 20 minutes I peeped out
2 again, but he was gone.
3 In the morning in front of Number 9 a mortuary
4 vehicle appeared and I realised something had happened.
5 I asked some of the guards what had happened in Number
6 9, who had died, and they told me that it was Slavko
7 Susic. So they were always lying about what had
8 happened to people.
9 Q. Did they say what had happened to Slavko Susic such that
10 he died?
11 A. Yes. They told me that he had died, that Zara Mrkajic
12 had strangled him, but I doubt, because for each corpse
13 that was carried out, they would find a reason. For
14 instance for Zeljko Cecez, he and my Lazar are first
15 cousins, and they said he had starved to death, but he
16 had died from the suffering, from the beating. Pero
17 Mrkajic apparently died from diabetes, but again he died
18 from the beatings, like Cedo Avramovic.
19 Q. Mrs Cecez, the incident you have just described with
20 Mr Delic beating Mr Susic, can you estimate
21 approximately when this was?
22 A. I think it must have been at the beginning of July. I
23 do not remember exactly, but somewhere around there. So
24 they would always find an excuse, a reason why somebody
25 died. So I didn't believe what they were saying about
1 Slavko. Anyway, those people were taken out of that
2 camp dead.
3 Q. Mrs Cecez, besides the time you have just testified
4 about, when you saw the mortuary van come to get
5 Mr Susic, did you see the mortuary van on any other
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Can you estimate approximately how many times you saw
9 the mortuary van going to Celebici while you were there?
10 A. I personally saw it at least ten times. I personally
11 saw it, but during the time I was there I heard that 17
12 of our people had been killed. I don't remember all
13 their names. Probably other people will tell you, but
14 anyway I did see Slavko being beaten.
15 Q. Mrs Cecez, was there medical care at Celebici camp that
16 you are aware of?
17 A. Well, let me see. There were two of our doctors,
18 prisoners, and those men who were terribly beaten up and
19 broken up, they were taken to these doctors, but they
20 had nothing to treat them with, so that I watched a man
21 from Zukici with his left ear cut off. I saw him jog
22 around like a robot. Then the son of Bogdan Kuljanin,
23 the son of Miroslav -- I would be sweeping and he would
24 lift up his leg with a piece of string. Their hands,
25 legs bandaged, their chests broken up. I remember Ranko
1 Gotovac. He held his stomach with his two hands.
2 So it was terrible to watch, but those doctors did
3 come to see me too. When Delic would go away. They
4 didn't dare when he was around. I had tonsillitis,
5 painful tonsillitis, and they would give me injections,
6 and I happened to have a vial in my bag and so they gave
7 it to me. Earlier on when I was totally exhausted, they
8 gave me some tranquilisers. Ivica Boric would give me a
9 tranquiliser because I was really at the end of my
10 tether. I had lost a lot of weight. I had suffered
11 terribly. For 32 days I didn't go to the toilet.
12 Psychologically and physically I was completely worn
13 out. They kill you psychologically.
14 Q. Mrs Cecez, when you mentioned the two doctors, do you
15 know their names, the doctors who were prisoners?
16 A. Yes, I do. Petko Grubac. He was a psychiatrist, and
17 Relja, I think it is Gligorevic. So they were captured
18 there like the rest of us.
19 Q. Is it one of these people that you indicated earlier you
20 asked for additional birth control pills?
21 A. Yes, from Gligorevic. I think it was him. I think it
22 was Gligorevic. I called him Relja, though, and I said:
23 "Can you find these pills somewhere?" He said he would
24 try but he couldn't. Then I saved: "How long are we
25 going to suffer?" He took me by the hand and said
1 quietly: "Bear up, Grozda". Those were very difficult
2 moments. I remember that time when he was with me.
3 Masic came with him and Masic asked him: "Relja, do you
4 need some bread?" He would answer quietly: "Yes, yes",
5 so that we could hardly hear him. We were all
7 Q. Where did the two doctors stay and try to help some of
8 the injured prisoners; do you know, Mrs Cecez?
9 A. In 22. That is where they were housed, in a small -- in
10 a tiny little building. I assume that the fire-fighting
11 equipment was there.
12 Q. Is 22 the building across from the administration
14 A. Yes, yes.
15 Q. The court's indulgence for one second, please, your
17 Mrs Cecez, just before I get to the time when you
18 were released from the camp, I just want to try to just
19 make sure that it has been clear what you testified
20 for. Am I correct that you were raped by -- you ever
21 indicated you were raped by Mr Hazim Delic on one
22 occasion, personally raped by him?
23 A. Yes, only once by him personally.
24 Q. Okay. Do you know how many other times you were raped
25 by other persons?
1 A. Mostly once by each.
2 Q. Mrs Cecez, will you please tell us when it was and how
3 it was that you were released from the camp?
4 A. Probably when the International Red Cross came and
5 registered us, and when they came for the second time on
6 August 22nd, I was released on 31st. I don't know
7 really why or how, but anyway Milojka and I were
8 released then, but just before that let me mention that
10 We were in mortal fear. There were a lot of
11 drivers and cars. A consignment of weapons had
12 arrived. There were 38 trucks with trailers, with
13 Mostar, Sarajevo, Konjic, Zenic registration plates. So
14 I counted them. There were 38 of those cars in the
15 first group and a second came shortly afterwards.
16 The second time there were 52 of these cars. So
17 that Milojka and I were petrified that those drivers
18 might come, but they didn't. They were all there within
19 the camp. They spent the night.
20 I remember a young guard. They called him Habu.
21 He said to me: "I never slept tonight." I said "Why?"
22 "Well, if a fool fired a single bullet, there would be
23 -- not only would the whole of Celebici, but the whole
24 of Konjic would go up in flames."
25 I really don't know whether they unloaded anything
1 there, but shortly they started distributing rifles. I
2 remember they asked Novica Zelenovic to paint lilies on
3 the guns for them. They were all on their feet. I saw
4 even children maybe from 5th-8th grade being rounded up
5 to go to the front lines to help the soldiers. So I saw
6 and heard all kinds of things, even though I forgot a
7 lot of it.
8 Anyway, on 31st August I was released and in all
9 that time I knew not what had happened to my husband or
10 son, nor did anyone come to see me. Milojka left a
11 little earlier. She crossed the railway bridge to
12 Pokojiste, where her mother had been taken away. She
13 had a sister there and Pavo Mucic told me he would come
14 with me to Donje Selo and indeed he put me in the
15 Toyota, as far as I remember, and I went with him, and
16 Jasna Dzuhmur, and on the way when I got close to my
17 burnt down house. I said: "Look, look, in my 22 years
18 of marriage all I have is in this nylon bag", because
19 everything had been burnt down. A woman from Celebici
20 brought me some underwear. That was all. Janez
21 Arnautovic's wife it was. Then he said: "Who is to
22 blame? Your Lazar could have been leader in the village
23 if he had wanted."
24 Q. Can you go more slowly, Mrs Cecez?
25 A. I went out, stood in front of my house. They went on
1 forwards in the village to see Goran Cecez, a waiter. I
2 don't know what business they had with him. I entered
3 into what remained of my house. In the ground floor
4 where the shop was there was nothing left. Then Trile,
5 my brother-in-law, came, the one that survived, and
6 said: "Don't worry. They're alive. They're well.
7 Apparently my son Dusan had left just the night before
8 in the direction of Serb-held territory. I asked for
9 Lazar and he said: "He left last week." I asked:
10 "Where are Ristan and Rajko, my brother-in-law's two
11 sons?" He said: "They are still in hiding in the back
12 of the house, in the caves."
13 So I was very surprised. Is it possible that they
14 were alive, because I had thought they had all been
15 killed. I had almost thought that they were dead. Then
16 I reached my mother-in-law and Rajko was still alive and
17 my mother-in-law was there, because her house was also
18 set on fire. So that my mother in law and my
19 brother-in-law's daughter were in Rajko's house.
20 I joined them but Rajko they left on 2nd September
21 towards Borci. On 5th December Jasna Dzuhmur came to
22 fetch me and another three or four soldiers with her in
23 a van. They said that they had found a corpse and I had
24 to see whether it was my Lazar. I couldn't believe it.
25 I said: "If it's my Lazar, Jasna, you know him. Do I
1 have to see him? I want to remember him the way he
2 was", then somebody called Esad Padalovic charged his
3 gun, cursed my mother and said: "Get up this minute".
4 Then Jasna asked my mother-in-law who Lazar is. "Who is
5 he to you?" She said: "My son. Be happy if he's killed",
6 she said.
7 Then the sister of Rajko and Ristan started
8 crying. I said: "Don't cry in advance." Then I asked
9 whether Jovanka could come with me. They said she
10 could. So we went. Esad Padalovic was cursing us all
11 the time, yelling at us, but Jasna did try to quiet him
12 down. We reached the mortuary, in the morgue. Jasna
13 asked me whether he had any marks. I explained what I
14 knew. She asked would I be able to recognise him. I
15 said: "Well, of course. I spent 22 years of my life
16 with him".
17 When I entered in the first room I saw the son of
18 my brother-in-law, late Rajko, lying on his stomach face
19 down, as if somebody had stuck a stick in his elbow.
20 Then to the right there was Ristan, Jovanka's other
22 Then they took me through a small corridor. Esad
23 Padalovic fired a whole charge at my feet. Sefko Niksic
24 asked: "Why are you going that?" He said: "I didn't
25 want to do it. It just happened". Then I entered this
1 room, where my late Lazar was lying. Sefko said before
2 that: "Fix those corpses". My Lazar was a big man. He
3 would always put his hand on his hip, and that is how
4 they had positioned him in death. Ristan was on his
5 back; Rajko was on his stomach, the way they slept, and
6 so I realised that they had followed us. They knew how
7 we behaved, how we lived.
8 When I saw my Lazar, he had Puma sneakers on his
9 feet, and when I unbuttoned his shirt he had a prominent
10 chest, and on his left leg I think there was just the
11 bone left. The meat was missing, the flesh was missing
12 from his leg. When I reached his head, when I saw what
13 they had done to him, they had gouged out his eyes, his
14 nose, his ears. So I could recognise him by the skull,
15 by his teeth. I looked at those teeth and that was the
16 only way I could recognise him.
17 I asked: "Where is Dusan"? All three are dead.
18 Where is my son?" Sefko Niksic laughed and said: "We
19 will find him. We will find him". That is the
20 ex-commander of my husband. Shame on him, but that's
21 the evil that came upon us, and I'm the least to blame
22 for that.
23 After that they didn't allow us to bury them.
24 Rajko and Ristan on Monday 7th, they said: "You can bury
25 them". We buried them where their father was buried
1 when he was killed. Then when they brought me, my
2 mother-in-law said: "Put the children away". Then they
3 were buried, and on 18th September they allowed the
4 burial of ... I heard that somebody said that he should
5 be released, but that is how I heard, so that our men
6 were buried all near the woods, and also those in the
7 sports hall, they also were not allowed to be buried in
8 a graveyard, and people were not allowed to wear
9 mourning clothes and to cry.
10 Q. Mrs Cecez, I just have two more questions. Do you need
11 a break now or can you continue?
12 A. Please go on.
13 Q. Mrs Cecez, after you were released, did you ever have
14 any contact with anyone from the prison, including
15 Mr Mucic?
16 A. Mostly not. There was military passing through, mostly
17 the Croats. At that time they split up the Croats and
18 Muslims. They couldn't go all together. Pavo Mucic
19 would come and sit down with me several times. I asked
20 him. On one occasion he said that he was good to the
21 Serbs. I said. "What good were you? You were no good
22 to me". I said to him: "Who set my house on fire?" He
23 told me that he didn't know.
24 Q. Let's go slowly, Mrs Cecez.
25 A. I told him: "You did nothing for me in three and a half
1 months to ask me how I was and whether I needed ..." He
2 said: "I didn't need to". I said: "How come?" He said:
3 "Well, I read reports every morning". I said: "Who
4 wrote these reports?" He said: "Hazim Delic". I asked
5 whether this Hazim Delic ever wrote down that he came to
6 us, to our room, and that he was forcing us out, and he
7 said: "That couldn't have happened". Apparently he
8 didn't know anything, but I doubt that he knew nothing.
9 So I started talking to him what had happened to
10 me, and he was embarrassed, and I stayed there another
11 two and a half months in this village. After two and a
12 half months I crossed over to the Serb territory in
13 Hadrici. I saw people watching television and they were
14 talking, and I didn't understand that they could just
15 talk like that.
16 Q. Mrs Cecez, when you had your conversations with
17 Mr Mucic, was the subject of the 13-year-old girl ever
19 A. Yes, we did mention it. In essence he said that Hazim
20 Delic wanted to rape this young girl and he was told
21 about it. He was at home. He told the guards to
22 prevent that until he came, that he would not allow the
23 rape. He said: "When I didn't kill him at that time,
24 I'll never do it". Apparently he put the barrel of a
25 pistol into his mouth at that time. That is what people
1 were saying that he did.
2 Q. Did you ever have any conversation with Mr Mucic about
3 people in Konjic being angry that you were being kept in
4 Celebici and whether or not those angry people helped
5 you get released?
6 A. No, we did not talk much about that. We talked what
7 happened to our young men who had died in the sports
8 hall. He said: "My Grozda, Muslims killed them. They
9 shot a shell from Prevla". That was all a frame-up. We
10 have the list. I know who did what.
11 Q. Mrs Cecez, did Mr Mucic have any involvement in making
12 the arrangements for you to leave Konjic?
13 A. Yes, he did. Yes. He said that we were in danger, that
14 we need to go. He found a van, and that van came one
15 morning. It was on November 11th. Then we left to the
16 Serbian territory, and he stayed behind. When we got
17 out, we said to the young men there that we didn't have
18 any money. They were taking 300 German Marks at that
19 time, and they said: "No, it's all paid for". So I
20 thought that Pavo may have paid for it so that I left,
21 and I asked him: "What happened to these -- what
22 happened to our young men?" He said: "If myself and
23 Delalic go under, then anything can happen, and if not,
24 then everything will be known". I had a neighbour. We
25 went -- Zejnil. We went to school together. It was a
1 good family. I don't know why he didn't come. He was
2 good friends with my husband. We were neighbours, but I
3 never saw him there. Maybe he didn't dare come. I saw
4 his youngest brother there. He was there on one
5 occasion when Pavo said that we had to go and wash up,
6 and I didn't see him after that.
7 Q. Mrs Cecez, did you also have any conversation after you
8 were released from the camp with one of the guards,
10 A. Yes. He came on one occasion to Donje Selo to the
11 co-op. I had a small flat there, and he sat with me and
12 my sister-in-law, and her daughter was there too. He
13 said: "Where is your sister?" That is the word he used.
14 When we sat down, he said: "We call this woman
15 'Bradinka' because she was from Bradina". He said:
16 "Let Grozda say if I said anything bad, even though
17 Delic forced me several times to go and rape her, but I
18 would come to the guards and sit down and light a
19 cigarette", and then later come back and would pretend
20 that he raped me. So I thank him as a man for that.
21 Q. Your Honour, that concludes my questioning. I would
22 just like to introduce into evidence the diagram that
23 Mrs Cecez had made, Prosecution Exhibit 5.
24 MS McMURREY: Esad Landzo has no objections to that, your
1 MR MORAN: No objections, your Honour.
2 MS RESIDOVIC (in interpretation): No objection.
3 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: The document is admitted in evidence
4 as Exhibit 5.
5 MS McHENRY: Thank you, your Honour. That concludes our
7 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Actually the Trial Chamber should rise
8 in fifteen minutes' time, but we might start the
9 cross-examination now, if you are willing to start. I
10 will leave it to them.
11 MS RESIDOVIC (in interpretation): If possible, your
12 Honours, can we resume after lunch?
13 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: I try to offer you that opportunity,
14 so that we can adjourn now and resume at 2.30.
15 (Luncheon Adjournment)
2 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Can I invite the witness? The witness
3 is still on oath. The witness is now available for
5 Cross-examined by MS RESIDOVIC
6 MS RESIDOVIC (in interpretation): Your Honour, in
7 accordance with your decision, I wish to inform you that
8 the cross-examination of the witness, Mrs Grozdana
9 Cecez, will be carried out in the following way.
10 Mr Thomas Moran from the team of the defence counsel of
11 Delic Hasim, Mrs McMurrey from the team of the defence
12 of Mr Esad Landzo, Edina Residovic from the team of the
13 defence of Mr Zejnil Delalic and Mr Tapuscovic from the
14 team of the defence of Mr Pavo Mucic. Thank you.
15 Cross-examined by MR MORAN
16 MR MORAN: May it please the court, good afternoon, ma'am.
17 A. Good afternoon.
18 Q. Ma'am, my name is Tom Moran, and I am one of the defence
19 lawyers and I am going to ask you some questions.
20 Sometimes I talk a little fast and sometimes I am a
21 little hard to understand. So if you do not understand
22 something I say, would you please stop me? If you do
23 not understand a question, would you please ask me to
24 rephrase it or repeat it. Can you do that for me,
25 ma'am? If I ask you a question, it will make it go a
1 lot quicker if you just answer the question that I ask.
2 Can you do that? Will you do that for me? Okay. Thank
3 you very much, ma'am.
4 Ma'am, you said that the day that the people came
5 to your house they were calling for your husband to
6 surrender over a loudspeaker; is that not right. Ma'am,
7 you are going to have to speak up, because the court
8 reporter cannot take down a nod, if we are going to get
9 something in the record.
10 A. Yes. They called him on the loudspeaker, but he could
11 not hear that.
12 Q. That is true, but they were looking for your husband in
13 particular, were they not, ma'am?
14 A. I was simply the first house they reached. They started
15 from there.
16 Q. Well, ma'am, were they looking for any other people by
18 A. I don't know. I couldn't hear because I was on my way
19 to my mother-in-law's.
20 Q. That is right, ma'am. The reason they were looking for
21 your husband was because he was one of the leaders of
22 the people setting up the road blocks in your city. Is
23 that not correct?
24 A. I am not aware of it.
25 Q. All right, ma'am.
1 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Remember you told Ms McMurrey that you
2 had looked at some pictures.
3 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: McHenry.
4 MR MORAN: Ms McHenry and you had looked at some pictures,
5 what we would call a photo-spread? Again the court
6 reporter cannot take down a nod.
7 A. Yes, yes.
8 Q. Ma'am, if I showed it to you, would you recognise it?
9 Would you recognise the series of photographs?
10 A. I couldn't recognise anyone at the time.
11 Q. Yes, ma'am, but if I showed you the six photographs,
12 would you tell if that was the same one that the
13 prosecution showed you?
14 A. I may try. I could try.
15 MS McHENRY: Your Honours, it is also the case that the
16 prosecution will stipulate that the photo-spread that
17 Mr Moran has is the photo-spread that was shown to the
18 witness and then subsequently provided to Mr Moran.
19 MR MORAN: In that case, your Honour, we would move to
20 introduce as Delic exhibit number 1 the photo-spread and
21 ask that it be tendered to the court.
22 MS McHENRY: No objection.
23 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: The tribunal admits the photos into
25 MR MORAN: Now, ma'am, I would like to move on to a
1 different area, if I could. When you were taken to the
2 reception room, the room of the reception centre, like
3 the third day you were at Konjic, which room were you
4 kept in, ma'am, if we could show that to the court on
5 the TV camera?
6 A. Where the window with the wire is, with the steel wire
7 on it.
8 Q. Yes, ma'am. That is the room that you say is 2.3
9 metres, I believe it was -- what size did you say it
11 A. I am not sure, but about 3.20 by 2.20. I can't remember
12 exactly. After all, it was five years ago.
13 Q. Ma'am, you measured it with a ruler, did you not?
14 A. Yes, a ruler.
15 Q. Do you remember back in January 199 -- excuse me -- June
16 of 1994 you went in front of an investigating magistrate
17 in Yugoslavia?
18 A. I think so.
19 Q. On June 24th?
20 A. I don't remember the month.
21 Q. But you remember going in front of the investigating
22 magistrate, a Mr Zubac; is that correct?
23 A. I don't remember.
24 Q. But you do remember going to the court and giving a
1 A. It wasn't a court. They just called me in a room in
3 Q. They told you that you had an obligation to tell the
5 A. I suppose so. I can't remember exactly.
6 Q. In fact, you've seen that statement just recently, have
7 you not, the report of that magistrate judge?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. In fact, you made some corrections on it as recently as,
10 what, last night?
11 A. I don't know when it was.
12 Q. But since you have been in The Hague?
13 A. I don't know. I have no idea.
14 Q. Ma'am, when you made the corrections on it, was it a
15 long time ago or just very recently?
16 A. I have no idea. I can't remember anything.
17 Q. But you did make some corrections on it?
18 A. I believe I did.
19 Q. And those corrections were because there were some
20 things in the original statement that were not true. Is
21 that not right? Perhaps mistakes made by whoever wrote
22 it down?
23 A. Maybe. I have no idea. I don't know.
24 Q. Ma'am, if you said in that statement that the room was
25 3.2 metres by 2.2 meet metres back in 1994, would that
1 have been right?
2 A. I don't remember what I said. This was a long time ago.
3 Q. Ma'am, would it help you to see a copy of that
5 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: I think she has said precisely the
6 same thing now.
7 MR MORAN: Yes, your Honour. That room had two doors in
8 it; is that correct?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. One of the doors was always blocked. You could not use
11 it. Is that not right and the other --
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. And the other door, the door that you went through, what
14 kind of door was that? Was it a solid door like we have
15 on the edge of the court room?
16 A. A wooden door, an ordinary door. How do I know?
17 Q. I mean, was it a door that you could see through when it
18 was closed? Excuse me one second, your Honour?
19 A. No.
20 Q. Your Honour, I have just been told that the interpreters
21 are having a hard time hearing me. Could I use the
23 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Yes, okay.
24 MR MORAN: Thank you, your Honour: I think this may be a
25 little bit better. Is it? Okay. Thank you.
1 Ma'am, when you were being held in in that room,
2 was the door generally kept open or kept closed?
3 A. Closed. I could just see through the -- the gates
4 through the window then, when the door was closed, and
5 when I went out, I could see more.
6 Q. And, in fact, the door was generally closed, was it not?
7 A. Yes. I would always close it behind me.
8 Q. And the guards would keep it closed also, would they
9 not, because you were a prisoner?
10 A. Yes. When the guards would come in, when they raped me,
11 they would close the door. They would also use the
13 Q. Yes, ma'am, but the toilet that the guards used was at a
14 different place than the room you were kept in, was it
15 not, a different place in the building?
16 A. When they -- at night they would use our toilet and they
17 held the keys, and they would lock us up from the
19 Q. During the day did they keep you locked up from the
20 outside also in the room?
21 A. Yes. The main entrance was always locked, but when we
22 had to sweep outside, then they had to unlock it and
23 open the door.
24 Q. And when you were sweeping outside generally how much
25 time would you be outside? Would it be half an hour or
1 an hour or two hours? A long time or a short time?
2 A. It depends. Sometimes you would sweep the road. There
3 was a tree. The leaves would be falling down.
4 Sometimes it took longer; sometimes shorter.
5 Q. What time-frame are we talking about? Are we talking
6 generally about half an hour or generally about an hour?
7 A. I don't know. I didn't watch the time.
8 Q. In fact, you did not even have a watch, did you?
9 A. No.
10 Q. In fact, when you were taken prisoner and arrested, all
11 of your personal property was taken from you, was it
13 A. Everything was set alight.
14 Q. Pardon me, ma'am? I did not understand you. Everything
15 was what?
16 A. They set fire to my house, what was left. They couldn't
17 burn the land. They would have if they could, probably.
18 Q. Yes, ma'am, but when you were arrested you had some
19 things with you. You hid your wedding ring, but perhaps
20 some other jewellery, other things. When you were taken
21 prisoner, the people who arrested you and the people who
22 put you in the camp took all of the property you had
23 with you away from you, did they not?
24 A. No. Ibrahim Duro took my money because he said to me:
25 "If you don't give it to me, they'll take it anyway",
1 and I gave it to him. I took off my ring and I left it
2 at my brother-in-law's house. The rest was in my
3 handbag with my personal ID card and some medicines that
4 I had on me.
5 Q. When you got to the camp, the guards let you keep that,
6 or did they take it away from you?
7 A. I kept it. They didn't take it away from me, because
8 they searched us. They searched me near my house. They
9 saw there was nothing inside.
10 Q. Ma'am, you said in the corrections you made to your
11 statement that you gave to the court in Yugoslavia, the
12 corrections that we were provided with by the
13 prosecution today, that you had five packets of
14 contraceptive pills when you went to Celebici; is that
16 A. Yes, yes.
17 Q. And the way that the investigating magistrate originally
18 wrote his report, he said -- typed -- you had gotten
19 them just before the attack by the Muslim Croat army and
20 you correct that to say "quite a long time before the
21 attack". Which is right?
22 A. I bought them on 1st April 1992, because medicines were
23 already in short supply. I found the pills and I bought
24 myself this quantity, and I used them while I was living
25 with my husband.
1 Q. So did your doctor prescribe them for you?
2 A. Yes, for several years I had been using them in Konjic.
3 Q. What is your doctor's name?
4 A. I don't remember. It was a woman doctor anyway.
5 Q. Would Dr Sayed, and I will spell the last name for you,
6 J-U-S-U-F-B-E-G-O-V-I-C, would that be your doctor's
8 A. Maybe it was Sejo, but I really don't remember.
9 Q. In fact, ma'am, you were taking those pills since, what,
10 January of 1986, were you not?
11 A. I really can't remember the date, but it's a fact I'd
12 used them for a long time. I can't remember.
13 Q. And you used up the prescription in April of 1991, did
14 you not?
15 A. I got it without a prescription. You were able to buy
16 them without any prescriptions in private pharmacies.
17 There was a pharmacy near the bridge next to the bank on
18 the right-hand side as I walked up from my house, and I
19 dropped by the pharmacy and bought them.
20 Q. Well, at the end of March in 1992 you had gotten
21 pregnant, had you not?
22 MS McHENRY: Objection, your Honour, as to relevancy.
23 MR MORAN: Your Honour, if I may continue, I think I can
24 tie it up.
25 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: I think I sustain the objection.
1 MR MORAN: Would it surprise you if Dr Sayed -- and I
2 cannot pronounce his last name; I apologise -- told our
3 investigator that he last saw you on April 1st, 1992 and
4 did not prescribe any contraceptive pills?
5 MS McHENRY: Your Honour, may I object and explain why I
7 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: What is your objection?
8 MS McHENRY: Your Honour, my objection would be two-fold.
9 The first is, given that the witness has already just, I
10 believe, stated that she did not get them with a
11 prescription, I believe this is irrelevant, but it goes
12 to a broader issue, which was raised yesterday, and I
13 would like to explain to the court why I object.
14 I believe it is improper for defence counsel to
15 ask a witness whether or not they would be surprised at
16 what another witness may or may not say. I do not
17 believe that the defence may I impeach a witness by
18 reporting what other persons may or may not have said.
19 The prosecution certainly believes that they may lay the
20 foundation for impeachment by asking the witness about
21 certain facts and then later on in their case bringing
22 in witnesses or documents which will support the
24 For instance, if the defence wishes to ask Mrs
25 Cecez: "Did you or did you not receive a prescription
1 from your doctor in April of 1992?", I believe they have
2 may do that. If they are then able to at some later
3 point bring in what the doctor or the documents say,
4 that is proper, but I do not believe -- or if somehow
5 this witness can authenticate the records, or if it is
6 the witness's own statement, but the witness's opinion
7 about what other persons may have said or may not have
8 said is irrelevant. This witness has no way of knowing
9 what other people may have said, and the opinion as to
10 whether or not it is a surprise or not a surprise is
11 entirely irrelevant to the truth-finding process.
12 I particularly bring this up because I think there
13 are maybe situations where the other evidence, for
14 instance, may be unreliable. It could be that another
15 person was forced or coerced. It could be that another
16 person is mistaken, and it could be that the other
17 person is intentionally not telling the truth, but it is
18 improper and unfair to the witness, and I believe
19 misleading to this court to somehow ask the witness
20 their own opinion about what other people may have said.
21 So if the defence wishes to impeach this witness
22 with her own prior statement, we have no objection. If
23 the defence wishes to bring in evidence in its case
24 which contradicts facts of this witness, we do not
25 object. If the defence in closing argument wants to
1 point out contradictions, we do not object, but we do
2 object to asking a witness about what other persons have
3 said and would they be surprised, and what is their
4 opinion. We believe that it is a back door way of
5 getting in evidence that may or may not be admissible
6 and may or may not be reliable.
7 In particular, I will talk about something that
8 happened yesterday. Much of what happened yesterday had
9 to do with approximately 100 --
10 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Actually I am not sure you are talking
11 about the same things.
12 MS McHENRY: Your Honour, Mr Moran --
13 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: What is the question he is asking?
14 Have you got the question he asked?
15 MS McHENRY: "Would you be surprised if a doctor said ..."
16 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: "Your doctor", not "a doctor".
17 MS McHENRY: "Would you be surprised if your doctor said
18 that X?"
19 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Uh-huh.
20 MS McHENRY: I breach the witness's opinion as to whether
21 or not she would be surprised or not surprised is
22 entirely irrelevant. I certainly believe the defence is
23 entitled to say: "In April of 1992, did you or did you
24 not have a prescription?"
25 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: I think she can answer the question.
1 It is a simple and straightforward question.
2 MR MORAN: Thank you, your Honour. Ma'am, would you like
3 me to repeat the question? Do you need me to repeat
4 it? Ma'am, would it surprise you if your doctor said
5 that you came to him around the end of April -- excuse
6 me -- the beginning of April or late March in 1992 and
7 that at that time he did not prescribe any contraceptive
8 pills for you, and, in fact, he told you that because of
9 your age he would recommend a different type of
11 A. I was pregnant that year and I didn't have enough of
12 those medicines, so that I didn't use them for a time,
13 and indeed I became pregnant. I think his name was
14 Sejo. I went for a check-up. (redacted)
17 (redacted) I came to Sejo. He was going to send
18 me to Sarajevo but the situation there was already
19 tense. I didn't dare to go. Then he told me to come
20 and I think (redacted). Then I
21 came back and I found those pills and bought five little
22 boxes in this pharmacy, and I continued using them.
23 That is true. (redacted)
24 Q. (redacted)
25 (redacted). My question was whether you would be surprised if
2 A. I know what happened to me.
3 Q. In fact, your doctor told you it would be better to use
4 some other kind of contraceptive form because of your
5 age; is that not right?
6 A. He didn't say anything at the time. (redacted)
7 (redacted). I came back home. I rested for a day or
8 two and then I continued working. Maybe he said
9 something, but I really don't remember, but it is a fact
10 that I used those pills from before, and they could be
11 purchased without a prescription.
12 Q. Now, you gave some of those pills to Milojka Antic, did
13 you not?
14 A. No, she didn't use them. Only the women from Bradina
15 used them.
16 Q. So she received none of those pills?
17 A. No, not from me.
18 Q. Your Honour, may I have just a second? Ma'am, have you
19 made some appearances on television perhaps in Serbia to
20 talk about what happened to you?
21 A. I didn't have a TV set, so I have no idea. Nor do I
22 have a TV set now.
23 Q. So did you ever meet with any people with TV cameras,
24 who interviewed you?
25 A. I have no idea. Maybe I did. I don't know.
1 Q. You just don't remember?
2 A. No, I don't remember.
3 Q. Okay. Ma'am, in any of the statements you gave before
4 today did you ever mention the incident with the machine
6 A. Maybe I didn't remember it. I recalled it this time
7 just now. I don't know.
8 Q. Ma'am, the question was did you, prior to today, in any
9 of the statements you gave mention that machine gun
11 MS McHENRY: Your Honour, I object that it has been asked
12 and answered. She already stated she does not remember.
13 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: I think she has answered you.
14 MR MORAN: Ma'am, that was a terrific incident, was it not?
15 A. Which one are you referring to? Would you please
17 Q. When the people were firing the machine gun over your
19 A. Yes, indeed. I was terrified.
20 Q. In fact, that's the kind of thing that would stick in a
21 person's mind, is it not?
22 A. Yes, but I have many problems of my own. I believe that
23 I will remember other things that I forgot to say.
24 Perhaps, this time I didn't say how they brought
25 retarded girls to the camp and all the things they did
1 to them. There was a Croat young woman among them.
2 Q. Yes, ma'am.
3 A. I left that out.
4 Q. Well, when you gave your statement in June of 1994 to
5 the court, to the investigating magistrate in the former
6 Yugoslavia, he asked you questions to find out what had
7 occurred, did he not?
8 A. Maybe. I really do not remember anything. I have no
10 Q. And when you gave your statement to the investigators
11 from the tribunal, they asked you some questions to help
12 you remember things, did they not?
13 A. Maybe they did. I really have little knowledge of
14 courts and statements. What I could recall at that
15 moment I said.
16 Q. And they were asking questions to help you remember
17 these things, were they not?
18 A. They can't help me to remember when I know the torment I
19 went through. I know best. I just recounted what I
20 could remember.
21 Q. Yes, ma'am, and you just did not remember about that
22 machine gun until today?
23 A. Probably. I don't know. Maybe I did say that, but that
24 is what happened, and I know that is the truth. Now
25 whether I said it or not, I can't recall.
1 Q. Well, you talked -- in preparation for your testimony
2 here today did you look at any documents?
3 A. No.
4 Q. Did you talk to anyone?
5 A. No.
6 Q. Did you talk to, say, Ms McHenry?
7 A. Who is that? I don't know.
8 Q. Ma'am, that is the woman sitting over there that was
9 asking those questions of you earlier today?
10 A. Not today. I don't know.
11 Q. Well, did you talk to her in preparing to testify here?
12 A. I don't remember. I don't know. She doesn't know my
13 language and I don't know hers. Maybe I did, but I
14 don't remember.
15 Q. Ma'am, I would ask you to look at all four of those
16 people that are silting over at the prosecution bench.
17 Did you talk to any of them in preparation for your
18 testimony here today?
19 A. I don't recall, no, no.
20 Q. Did you talk to anyone from the Office of the Prosecutor
21 about your testimony here today?
22 A. I arrived by myself. I don't know.
23 Q. So basically you came from wherever you are currently
24 residing to The Hague and then when you came to the
25 court, the tribunal, the first time you talked about
1 what had occurred to you was when you were silting in
2 that witness chair; is that right?
3 A. I didn't understand you.
4 Q. Yes, ma'am. Well, when you came here to testify -- you
5 are no longer residing in Donje Selo I presume,?
6 A. No.
7 Q. And you came from wherever you are residing, and I am
8 not asking you where, and you came from there to Holland
9 and you got here some time last week, I guess; is that
11 A. Yes. I don't know the date.
12 Q. You just came -- you did not talk to anybody about your
13 testimony after you have got to the Hague; is that
15 A. I did not know with whom, openly with the women who were
16 there with us.
17 Q. What women were there with you, ma'am?
18 A. I don't know these people. There were some
20 Q. And you talked to them about what you were going to
21 testify to?
22 A. No, no. No. We just talked what Holland is like,
23 whether we like it or not, what the food was like, what
24 the accommodation was like. I knitted and things like
1 Q. And one last thing, ma'am, and then I think I shall be
2 done with all of my questions. You testified that you
3 saw a bucket being brought out from tunnel 9 every
4 morning; is that right?
5 A. The bucket was being brought out where they urinated, I
6 guess, during the night, and then every morning it would
7 be brought out and it would be emptied.
8 Q. It happened every morning that you saw; is that right?
9 A. I didn't see it every morning. Only when I peeked out
10 and see it. I didn't dare look all the time. The last
11 ones when we were coming out always had the bucket with
13 Q. When you peeked out, where did you peek out from?
14 A. From that room with three windows that were looking out
15 towards the number 9.
16 Q. That was the room where the guards were; right?
17 A. They were outside for the most part unless it rained, so
18 that they were not there, so that sometimes I was able
19 to peek out, but I would usually take the jug with me so
20 that if they saw me, it would look as if I was going to
21 get some water.
22 Q. So the room where you were held, you could pretty well
23 go in and out of that room any time you wanted to?
24 A. Sometimes when we dared -- sometimes they would say that
25 we couldn't look, couldn't watch, and so we didn't.
1 Q. But you could pretty well go in and out of that room
2 whenever you wanted to?
3 A. I could, but I often did not dare do it. Sometimes when
4 I would go to the toilet, I would sort of peek out. So
5 we couldn't go in to just watch from that window. It
6 would have to look sort of accidental. I would
7 sometimes peek out.
8 Q. Yes, ma'am, so the door to the room where you were held
9 was not kept closed, was it?
10 A. Not the door. That door was not locked. Only the
11 outside door was locked.
12 Q. So you could come and go from the room you were being
13 held in pretty much whenever you wanted to?
14 MS McHENRY: Objection. Asked and answered.
15 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: I do not really see the nature --
16 because she has explained how she can reach inside and
18 MR MORAN: All right, your Honour. Thank you very much. I
19 will withdraw the question. By the way, you said that
20 the food that you were getting was not -- was very small
21 quantities; is that right?
22 A. Bad food and small quantities.
23 Q. Do you know what the guards were eating?
24 A. I don't know.
25 Q. Do you know whether the food was cooked at Celebici in
1 the camp or whether it was brought from some place else
2 to the camp to feed the guards and the inmates?
3 A. I don't know. I really don't know where it was coming
5 Q. Your Honour, may I have just a few seconds? (Pause).
6 Ma'am, were you allowed to have visitors at the
7 reception area of the gate house?
8 A. No. Nobody came to visit me. It was not allowed.
9 Q. No-one at all?
10 A. My sister came a number of times to me and my son, but
11 -- and her son, and they wouldn't let her in, Hazim
12 Delic and others, and he bragged that 60 Delic girls and
13 boys will be born because that is how many women he
14 raped. Those were the stories that went around, but I
15 never got a visit. I never knew what happened with my
17 Q. Ma'am, let me just ask a couple more things. How did
18 your husband die?
19 A. I am still not clear about that. I am still unclear
20 about that. At first I thought that he stepped on a
21 mine. I didn't know what the landmines were, and I
22 still am not clear. I don't know.
23 Q. But your husband was never a prisoner anywhere, was he,
24 to your knowledge?
25 A. I don't know. He left on August 22nd from Donje Selo.
1 That is what my brother-in-law said, and he hid in and
2 around the village.
3 Q. Well, between May and August 22nd your husband was free,
4 was he not?
5 A. That is no freedom if he was in a cellar. 42 days in a
6 cellar of Trile and it was 80 cms high, this is where
7 they went to the toilet, where they spent all their
8 time. That was no freedom.
9 Q. But he was never in the custody of the army of
10 Bosnia-Herzegovina, was he?
11 A. No. Until then he was not, because he hid.
12 Q. Your two other relatives who were killed about the same
13 time, again they perhaps stepped on landmines or were
14 killed in battle, something like that?
15 A. They tried to get out and as soon as they went, they
16 were killed. I don't know if somebody killed them. I
17 don't know, but they were dead. I went to the morgue
18 and I saw them. They certainly did not attack or murder
19 anyone themselves.
20 Q. But they certainly were not inmates of Celebici, were
22 A. No, they stayed with my husband and hid with him.
23 Q. Your Honour, I will pass the witness.
24 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: That is the end of the
25 cross-examination for the third accused.
1 MS McMURREY: Your Honour, I do not want to shock you, but
2 we have no questions for this witness. Thank you.
3 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Nothing shocks me. At least I know
4 how proceedings should go. Any other
6 Cross-examination by MS RESIDOVIC.
7 MS RESIDOVIC (in interpretation): Your Honour, Mrs Cecez,
8 I am Edina Residovic. I am defence counsel for Zejnil
9 Delalic. First, allow me to tell you that I understand
10 that it is not easy for you to answer all our
11 questions. You are on the witness stand for the second
12 day, but I also hope that you understand my own duty and
13 need to ask you questions relating to the events that
14 you have described: I will also try to make my
15 questions simple and clear, and please answer them also
16 in the same manner.
17 Should you not understand the questions or the
18 interpretation, please say so, and I will repeat the
19 question, so that we can understand each other. Do you
20 agree with that, Mrs Cecez?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Thank you. As you stated, you gave your first statement
23 in June to the investigative magistrate in Borci?
24 A. I think it was then. I don't know what month it was.
25 Q. You don't remember the year but do you remember it was
1 in Borci?
2 A. Yes, somebody came to Borci and they asked questions.
3 Q. In other words, you did not go to Nevesinje to give this
5 A. No.
6 Q. In a statement somebody said you gave a statement in
7 Nevesinje, that would not be true; correct?
8 A. Correct.
9 Q. Before the investigators of this tribunal you gave two
10 statements; is that correct?
11 A. I don't recall.
12 Q. "I came once in December of 1995 and on 14th November
14 A. I only came here once.
15 Q. So if there are two statements, one would not be yours?
16 A. I only know that I came here to The Hague once. It was
17 too much travelling for me.
18 Q. Did you give a statement in December of 1995 at a
19 different location?
20 A. In December of 1995 I think it was here.
21 Q. And 14th November 1996?
22 A. It wasn't here.
23 MS McHENRY: May I ask just two things. One is just to ask
24 that there be a break between defence counsel's
25 questions and the witness's answer just because for us
1 people listening it is going a little too fast. Not
2 only sometimes is it hard to tell what the question and
3 answer is. Certainly it takes away any chance that we
4 might have to object.
5 The second thing is: may I just suggest that the
6 defence counsel show the witness the 2nd November 1996
7 statement, because I believe that may refresh the
8 recollection and it may have to do with the definition
9 of "statement" and things like that. Thank you.
10 JUDGE JAN: They speak the same language. Therefore it is
11 going a little more quicker.
12 MS RESIDOVIC (in interpretation): May I show the two
13 statements to the witness?
14 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Well, if you want to, there is nothing
15 wrong in doing that: it's even easier for you.
16 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: What language was the statement taken
17 in? Her own language?
18 MS RESIDOVIC (in interpretation): I have the statement in
19 the language of the witness. As far as I know, the
20 investigators always took statements in English.
21 Have you seen the statement, Mrs Cecez?
22 A. This second one is not clear to me.
23 Q. Will you explain which one is not clear, as I do not
24 have them here?
25 A. This one.
1 Q. The second one dated November 1996; is that the one?
2 A. Where is the date? 1996.
3 Q. So you are not sure that you made that statement?
4 A. I don't even know what it says.
5 Q. It does not matter what it says. Just answer whether
6 you remember that in November 1996 you spoke to the
7 investigator of the prosecution making an additional
9 A. I really don't know when it was. Maybe I did. Maybe I
10 didn't. I can't remember.
11 Q. In answer to a question earlier on you said that you had
12 not spoken earlier with Mrs Teresa McHenry, and on this
13 document it says that Mrs McHenry was present?
14 A. Maybe she was, but I really do not recollect. I do not
15 remember people very well.
16 Q. Mrs Cecez, in both cases when the investigator of the
17 tribunal was questioning you or on one occasion, as you
18 remember, you said that you were ready to testify before
19 this tribunal.
20 A. I think I spoke the truth. There is absolutely no
22 Q. On both occasions or once the investigator was a woman?
23 A. I suppose so. There was a tall blonde woman.
24 Q. Mrs Sabine Manke; is that the one?
25 A. Yes, yes.
1 Q. Was that just once that you were questioned by her?
2 A. I came to The Hague only once. I can't remember
4 Q. In the statement that you made in Borci, as you say, and
5 in the statement before Mrs Manke, you did not mention,
6 nor did you have any reason to mention, Mr Delalic?
7 A. No, I didn't see him there, so then I couldn't say
8 anything about him, about something I hadn't seen.
9 Q. Mrs Cecez, it is difficult for me to put a question to
10 you, because in the statement which you do not recall
11 having made you obviously in answer to somebody's
12 question mentioned the name of Zejnil Delalic?
13 A. They were may neighbours, so I knew them.
14 Q. Yes, you said that during the course of this morning in
15 your testimony. My question is: if somebody else were
16 not to prompt you to mention him, you had no need to
17 mention Zejnil Delalic in connection with the events you
18 were describing; is that right?
19 A. I cannot cast a suspicion on somebody who did me no
21 Q. Thank you. You have answered my question. Allow me to
22 continue. You said that you were born in Ostrozac?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Your family lived there?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. Your father lived in Ostrozac until the end of 1994?
2 A. Yes.
3 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: May I kindly appeal to counsel. The
4 dialogue is getting too fast for everyone.
5 JUDGE JAN: You see, the interpreter is the same, so the
6 questions and the answers really get muddled up. If you
7 are a little slower, wait for her reply, so we will be
8 able to find out what she is saying and what you are
9 asking, because the interpreter is the same. Getting
10 the same voices in quick succession, it is very
11 difficult to make out what the question is and what the
12 answer is.
13 MS RESIDOVIC (in interpretation): Thank you, your
14 Honours. It is obvious that sometimes I forget that,
15 because I speak in the same language as the witness. I
16 will try to speak more slowly.
17 Do you know that the Serbs who lived in Ostrozac
18 the whole time were in good relationships with their
20 A. No. I couldn't go there. I only went there once to
21 visit my brother when I came out of the camp so I don't
22 know and if they had good relations, surely they
23 wouldn't have left too.
24 Q. Do you know that your neighbours, when invited by the
25 authorities in Jablanica, surrendered their arms of
1 their own free will? Thank you. You said yesterday
2 some time in mid-May 1992 --
3 JUDGE JAN: Let us have the answer to the last question.
4 They surrendered their weapons.
5 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Peacefully.
6 JUDGE JAN: What is the answer?
7 A. I don't know. I am not informed about these things. I
8 have no idea.
9 MS RESIDOVIC (in interpretation): And do you know,
10 Mrs Cecez, whether any of them were in Celebici?
11 A. Who?
12 Q. Your own from Ostrozac?
13 A. No, I don't know.
14 Q. All right. Thank you. Yesterday you said that you went
15 to Konjic for the last time some time in mid-May. You
16 said an exact date I don't know?
17 A. 19th May.
18 Q. Yes, to bring in your intake from the store. Was the
19 city shelled at that time?
20 A. I don't know that it was, but I was afraid to go alone.
21 I asked Tidja Zekic, a Muslim woman, to come with me.
22 We had quite a bit of money and I was afraid to go
23 alone. I took it on 19th. I saw people were already in
24 multi-coloured clothes. I was surprised what kind of
25 clothes they were wearing.
1 Q. Did you see destroyed houses, stores?
2 A. No, no.
3 Q. You did not. Do you know that until 19th Konjic was
4 heavily shelled?
5 A. I don't know. I have no idea. I don't remember
7 Q. You don't remember or you don't know?
8 A. I don't know. I really don't know.
9 Q. In other words, you don't know who shelled it?
10 A. I don't know anything at all.
11 Q. At that time, Mrs Cecez, as a woman born in Hercegovina,
12 as a citizen of Bosnia-Hercegovina?
13 A. I was born there. I was, yes.
14 Q. So a citizen of Bosnia-Herzegovina. My colleague asked
15 you a little while ago whether it was true that some
16 people were looking in particular for your husband by
17 his name?
18 A. Yes. When they got to the house, they shouted out:
19 "Lazar, surrender. We won't hurt you." My house was in
20 the centre of town, of the village. There were buses,
21 cars there.
22 Q. Please can you confirm this: did I hear well that two
23 police cars came?
24 A. Yes, one in front and one behind.
25 Q. In your statement given to the prosecution you said that
1 your husband jumped out and left, and fled?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. You also said that earlier he worked in a police
5 A. Yes, he did and he retired.
6 Q. Can you explain to me whether before that day any people
7 were arrested or taken from Donje Selo?
8 A. I don't know. Maybe but I really don't remember.
9 Q. People from the police station were people who worked
10 with your husband?
11 A. I didn't see at the time, but I am sure they did,
12 because they were driving the car.
13 Q. Mrs Cecez, is it normal that people flee when they see
14 their colleagues from work?
15 A. I have no idea, but we were living in fear already.
16 Q. Can you explain to me whether your husband had any
17 reasons to flee when he heard that they were coming?
18 A. Let me tell you. Often from the right bank of the
19 Neretva river there was shooting, so we were afraid to
20 go out. So he spent most of his time inside the house.
21 Q. Miss Cecez, you were a well-off family in the village?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Bjelovcina and Cerici are your neighbouring villages.
24 Do you know the name of Milijan Cecez?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. Do you know that in the area of Donje Selo there were
2 barricades erected and checkpoints which blocked free
4 A. I don't know and I don't remember.
5 Q. Do you not know or do you not remember?
6 A. I don't remember.
7 Q. Do you know whether your husband took part in organising
8 these checkpoints and barricades?
9 A. I don't remember anything at all. I was doing my work
10 in my house, so I don't remember any of that. He liked
11 to go fishing mostly.
12 Q. Did your late husband also know Mirjana Cecez?
13 A. He did.
14 Q. Mirjana Cecez left somewhat earlier. He left that area
15 a bit earlier?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Do you know that, following that, your husband took over
18 the organisation of arming of Cerici, Donje Selo and
20 A. No. I don't remember, nor is that possible. How could
21 he bring weapons?
22 MS McHENRY: Your Honour, just for the future, may I object
23 to the relevancy of what her husband may or may not have
24 done with respect to her testimony and her confinement.
25 JUDGE JAN: She made a statement they were looking for her
1 husband. She wants to find out why. This
2 cross-examination arises out of a statement she made in
3 direct examination.
4 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: I think you can carry on.
5 MS RESIDOVIC (in interpretation): Thank you, your
7 Please will you answer my question? Do you know
8 whether your husband, after the departure of Milijan
9 Cecez, took over the duty of arming of the Serbian
10 population in these villages?
11 A. I am not familiar with any of that.
12 Q. If other documents or other witnesses say different,
13 will you say that they do not speak the truth?
14 A. I will not claim anything for anybody, but what I don't
15 remember, I can't remember, and it's easiest to blame a
16 dead man today for something.
17 Q. Mrs Cecez, when asked by the prosecutor, you said that
18 you knew who Dr Rusmir Hadzihuseinovic is. Can you
19 repeat that now?
20 A. Of course I know. He was President of the municipality
21 for a time. I don't know for how long. He would come
22 to the camp and I knew him from before.
23 Q. Did you know that Dr Rusmir, before these events that
24 you spoke about, together with other representatives of
25 the authorities, tried repeatedly to negotiate the
1 surrender of arms?
2 A. I have no idea. I really don't know.
3 Q. If somebody else comes to and asserts that he will not
4 know this because you don't know the facts; correct?
5 MS McHENRY: Objection. Your Honour, I am going to object
6 to asking when she has already said she does not know,
7 so it is improper for her to have an opinion as to what
8 other people may or may not have said.
9 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: These questions have been answered. I
10 do not know why you want to worry yourself about it. If
11 she will not accept whatever they have said, she will
12 say so.
13 MS RESIDOVIC (in interpretation): Mrs Cecez, was your late
14 husband a member of the SDS?
15 A. I don't know.
16 Q. And was Jovanka your sister-in-law who worked at the SDS
17 in Konjic?
18 A. She did.
19 Q. Do you know of the decision of the SDS on establishment
20 of the Serbian municipality of Konjic?
21 A. I have no idea. I really don't understand any of those
23 Q. I only have two more questions, with apologies for being
24 too long.
25 Can you tell us, do you know that in the fighting
1 for Donje Selo several members of the MUP were also
3 A. You mean when it was attacked, when Donje Selo was
5 Q. Yes.
6 A. At the time when there was fighting in that area.
7 Nobody was killed until that day, and then I heard that
8 somebody called Velija was killed, and Pavo Mucic told
9 me that somebody called Narcis had killed him from
10 behind. So I don't know.
11 Q. I just ask you what you know and not what has been told
12 to you?
13 A. All I know is Velija was killed and Narcis killed him
14 and Pavo told me Narcis had killed him.
15 Q. Mrs Cecez, you recognised your husband?
16 A. Only by his teeth.
17 Q. You are sure that he was not in Celebici and he was not
18 exposed to any torture there?
19 A. I never heard that he was in Celebici, whether they
20 caught him alive and then tortured him. I don't know.
21 The main thing is that he is gone.
22 Q. Your husband was a citizen of Bosnia-Herzegovina, just
23 like you?
24 A. Yes, of course we were. We were born there.
25 Q. In your statement before this tribunal and earlier you
1 spoke about some other persons that you met in
2 Celebici. Ivica Buric, was he a Muslim Bosnian?
3 A. I assume he was a Croat. They called him Ivica Buric.
4 Q. You also said that a certain Zvonimir also came in with
5 the MUP to Celebici?
6 A. I think he did.
7 Q. Was he also a Muslim?
8 A. A Croat and he is married to a Serbian woman.
9 Q. While you were in Celebici did you see members of the
10 military police or the HVO there?
11 A. I don't know really. I don't understand these signs,
12 but anyway there was told us that the Croats were
13 terrible people, that we shouldn't have any contact with
14 them and as soon as we saw the insignia on their
15 sleeves, I would hide from the window.
16 Q. Your Honours, I was going to finish, but I have an
17 additional question, so please indulge me. I would like
18 to ask it, to put it to Mrs Cecez.
19 Do you know whether a commission was working in
20 Celebici questioning prisoners?
21 A. I don't know. I was questioned only once, for a short
23 Q. You had no opportunity to see where they were
24 questioning people?
25 A. No, no, I don't remember.
1 Q. In your statement, given in 1994, you stated that your
2 physician gave you a prescription for pills that my
3 colleague questioned you about. Did you speak the truth
5 A. Yes. The doctor had prescribed them before, because I
6 used them for five, six, seven years. I don't remember
8 Q. But specifically the pills in this case, were they
9 prescribed by a doctor?
10 A. Yes. I always had that prescription in reserve, so I'd
11 go to the pharmacy and I'd buy them. So I kept using
12 the same pills.
13 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: I thought she said that several
14 times. This has been repeated that she had these pills
15 since 1986 and now she wants to buy new ones.
16 MS RESIDOVIC (in interpretation): I only wanted it entered
17 into the transcript. Thank you. However, today she
18 said that she bought them without a prescription, so we
19 wanted to clarify that point.
20 A. They can be purchased without a prescription, because it
21 is a private pharmacy.
22 MS RESIDOVIC (in interpretation): Thank you, Mrs Cecez.
23 Thank you, your Honours. I have no more questions.
24 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Mr Tapuskovic, any questions?
25 MR TAPUSKOVIC (in interpretation): Your Honours, on behalf
1 of the team defending Mr Mucic the questions will be put
2 by Mr Mike Greaves. I would just like for an
3 explanation concerning me. I deserved your objections,
4 but I appeal to you to have some understanding for us
5 lawyers coming from these parts. In my country I do not
6 get permission to speak. I just get up and wait for
7 permission. So please forgive me for this error. It
8 was not at all my intention to insult the court.
9 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: There is no reason why you should be
10 too worried. All I objected to was two people speaking
11 at the same time. It is not done.
12 MR GREAVES: Will your Honour just give me a moment?
13 Cross-examination by MR GREAVES.
14 JUDGE JAN: The scale was 1:12,000. I am sorry.
15 MS McHENRY: I believe it was 1:50,000, your Honour.
16 JUDGE JAN: Thank you. I am just wondering if this is the
17 map of Donje Selo. Let us find out. Donje Selo.
18 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Well, Mr Greaves. Thank you very
19 much. Let me just give you have a short warning. We
20 might break at 4 to reassemble about 4.20, 4.25,
21 although you will continue cross-examining when you come
23 MR GREAVES: I wonder if you prefer I do it now in one go.
24 Perhaps you might like to rise now for the same period.
25 Would that be a sensible way of doing it rather than my
1 breaking off halfway? I would prefer it if you --
2 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Then we will break now and come back
3 at 4.15.
4 MR GREAVES: Thank you very much. I think that is very
6 (3.55 pm)
7 (Short break)
8 (4.17 pm)
9 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Please call the witness; she is still
10 on her oath.
11 Mr Greaves, your witness.
12 Cross-examined by MR GREAVES
13 MR GREAVES: May it please your Honour.
14 Mrs Cecez, I would like to ask you one or two
15 questions to start with about your escape, if I may call
16 it that, to Serb territory in November 1992. That would
17 be about two months after your release from Celebici; is
18 that right?
19 A. Shall I answer this?
20 Q. I think I did ask a question. Yes.
21 A. The question was not clear to me.
22 Q. I am sorry. Please tell me if you do not understand the
23 question. Your escape from Donje Selo to Serb
24 territory, that was in November 1992; is that right?
25 A. Yes, on 11th November 1992.
1 Q. The distance you had to travel that day, was that about
2 5 kms?
3 A. It was much more, because I started from Donje Selo and
4 ended up in Hadici near Kobilica.
5 Q. How far is that that you had to travel?
6 A. I do not know. I really don't know.
7 Q. Was it all by road?
8 A. Yes. Mostly macadam roomed. Sometimes we would have a
9 part that had asphalt on it.
10 Q. Instead of distance, perhaps you can tell us how long
11 the journey took?
12 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: That is in terms of time, is it?
13 MR GREAVES: In terms of time?
14 A. I don't know. I was not looking at a watch. I wasn't
15 watching it, so I don't know.
16 Q. Perhaps you can tell us what time of day was it that you
17 set off? Was it in the morning?
18 A. Yes, early in the morning. I don't recall the exact
20 Q. Was it still dark when you left?
21 A. No. It had become daylight.
22 Q. What time of day did you arrive eventually in Serb-held
24 A. We arrived some time maybe 4, 4.30. I don't know but it
25 was close to dusk, because we met a man when we arrived
1 and I don't know where this man was from and the people
2 who had brought us departed and he took us with him.
3 Q. Was that a Serbian man?
4 A. I don't recall. I don't know.
5 Q. You were not the only person who escaped that day?
6 A. No. We were 7 altogether in the vehicle.
7 Q. Was that 7 women or men and women?
8 A. 6 women and one young man.
9 Q. Can you recall who exactly went with you that day, what
10 their names were?
11 A. I don't know. I can't recall. I only know that they
12 were Croats and apparently they were in the military
14 Q. No-one else from your village escaped that day?
15 A. I don't know. Maybe there were. I don't know.
16 Q. Mrs Cecez, is it right that the person who paid for your
17 journey, that was Pavo Mucic?
18 A. I am not sure, but I imagine that it was him who paid.
19 Q. And the sum was 300 German Marks?
20 A. At that time they were asking 300 Marks from our people,
21 and I thought that is what they were asking of us, and
22 we didn't pay.
23 Q. You didn't pay it; someone else did?
24 A. No, no.
25 Q. And the arrangements were made by Mr Mucic?
1 A. Probably.
2 Q. Apart from Mr Mucic, there was a Croat driver, who drove
3 the vehicle; is that right?
4 A. Those two Croats that were with us, they drove and Pavo
5 stayed behind.
6 Q. The arrangements that were made put Mr Mucic into
7 danger; would you accept that?
8 A. Well, I don't know. I don't know.
9 Q. It was dangerous to help people escape in this way,
10 wasn't it?
11 A. I don't know.
12 Q. On the way did you pass through a number of checkpoints,
13 military checkpoints?
14 A. Yes. Somewhere above Butravic Pola there was one
16 Q. Were many questions asked at those checkpoints?
17 A. No. The driver got out and he spoke to them. We did
18 not get out and we didn't say anything.
19 Q. I want to ask you now, please, about the period between
20 your release from Celebici and your escape. Did you
21 spend the whole time in Donje Selo?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. And you were able to move about freely within the
25 A. Because when I went to visit my old house I would always
1 take a child with me, so that people would not shoot if
2 they saw me.
3 Q. And did you also have a piece of paper, a certificate,
4 which had been given to you?
5 A. Yes, after I was released from prison.
6 Q. A permit to move about freely?
7 A. Yes. It was Pavo Mucic wrote it for me for Donje Selo,
8 and I asked him for a certificate to go to Konjic if I
9 had to visit a doctor and also then later I asked him
10 for Ostrozac as well, because my father was 80 years
11 old, and I wanted to be able to visit him as well and he
12 did that.
13 Q. So he gave up the permission to go to these places?
14 A. He just wrote it and I went there with another Croat,
15 and nobody saw us.
16 Q. Mrs Cecez, you were not the only woman who was released
17 from Celebici and who went to Donje Selo?
18 A. Milojka was also released with me but she went to
19 Pokojiste and I went to Donje Selo.
20 Q. Was she released on the same day as you?
21 A. Yes, she was.
22 Q. Were there other women who had been released at
23 different times from the same camp in Donje Selo?
24 A. I don't know who was detained, because I found no women
25 from Donje Selo there.
1 Q. But were there some who returned to Donje Selo at about
2 the same time as you did?
3 A. I don't know. I was the longest there. I was one of
4 the first that was detained and that stayed there the
6 Q. Pavo Mucic came to visit you when you were -- after your
7 release, came to visit you in the village, did he not?
8 A. Yes, he did.
9 Q. And he visited you several times, did he not?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. On those occasions when he visited you he gave food and
12 things like that to you, did he not?
13 A. Yes, he did once, some food. Had they not burned the
14 house down, I would have had enough food.
15 Q. And you plainly needed food, and that is what he gave to
17 A. Yes, he did deliver food once.
18 Q. I would like to suggest to you that it was more than
19 once, Mrs Cecez, and that your memory may be at fault
20 after five years?
21 A. I think that it was only once that he delivered it to
22 me, but he may have delivered it several times to
24 Q. You heard that he had done that?
25 A. Yes. I guess people talked about that. My
1 brother-in-law said that he did.
2 Q. Certainly on one of the visits that he made to you there
3 was a conversation that you had with him about what had
4 happened in the camp?
5 A. Yes, I did.
6 Q. Would you agree with this, that he was surprised at what
7 you told him?
8 A. Yes. He looked at if he was surprised, as if he didn't
9 know anything, but I doubt that he didn't know anything.
10 Q. Well, I am going to ask you this. When you told him, he
11 was not only surprised, but he was also distressed, was
12 he not?
13 A. Yes. He said: "Why did you not ask for me?" I said that
14 I did but he was not coming. I said either the guards
15 did not tell him or he didn't want to come. I don't
16 know about that.
17 Q. From what you could see his reaction was one of
19 A. Yes, it was.
20 Q. And it is simply -- I am sorry?
21 A. Yes, it was. He said that.
22 Q. And it is only your opinion that he may not have been
24 A. That is my opinion, but then maybe the man didn't know
25 about anything. I don't know but he should have known.
1 He should have visited us while we were in the camp.
2 Q. He also spoke to you about the girl of 13?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. And told you that he tried to stop whatever was going to
5 happen to her?
6 A. Yes, he did.
7 Q. I would like to ask you now, please, about your actual
8 release from Celebici camp on 31st August 1992. Do you
9 recall that day?
10 A. I recall that day. It was a Monday.
11 Q. Mrs Cecez, I am going to ask the court to show you a
12 short piece of videotape, which comes from prosecution
13 exhibit M1?
14 MS McHENRY: Your Honour, it has not yet been exhibited.
15 If the defence wishes to enter it in evidence, we have
16 no objection.
17 MR GREAVES: I am very grateful.
18 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Yes, you can go ahead with that. You
19 can now tender it.
20 JUDGE JAN: As a defence exhibit. Okay.
21 MR GREAVES: Your Honour, I think the video is not playing
22 on her screen. She is the important one.
23 MS McHENRY: May I clarify for the record this is tape M1.
24 MR GREAVES: It is tape M1. I think within M1 there are
25 four exhibits, A, B, C, D. We are not sure whether it
1 is A, B, C or D. We cannot identify it from the
2 notation on it.
3 MS McHENRY: We will clarify that later for the court so
4 the court is clear what is entered into evidence.
5 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Let us get her the actual exhibit you
6 want, the picture you want.
7 MR GREAVES: Would your Honour just give me a moment,
9 (Video presentation)
10 Q. Mrs Cecez, you've got the picture now, have you?
11 A. Just of one man.
12 Q. What I want you to look at, please, is the men in the
13 pictures that you see, and I would like you to think
14 about who they might be.
15 A. I see this man but I can't remember who he was.
16 Q. Well, I would like you just to look at the film and then
17 at the end of the film, if there are people who you
18 recognise in the film, I would like you to tell us who
19 they are, please.
20 A. This is the brother of my sister -- no, no, the father
21 of my sister-in-law, Milijan, Milijan Djordjic from
23 Q. Is that the man on the right in the blue cap?
24 A. No, this one. This is Milijan.
25 Q. The man in the yellow jersey?
1 A. This one. Her father, as far as I can see, Milijan
2 Djordjic, an elderly man from Bradina. I think that is
4 Q. What about the men in the background that we can see
6 A. I can't see who they are.
7 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: There is not just one man. There is
8 more than one.
9 JUDGE JAN: There are five faces?
10 A. I don't know. Maybe I don't know them but this one I
11 know. He is a friend of mine and I know him.
12 MR GREAVES: Was there anybody else that you recognised in
13 that short bit?
14 A. No, I didn't.
15 Q. Thank you very much. I want to turn now, please, to
16 some of the accounts that you have given in connection
17 with these proceedings, Mrs Cecez.
18 Can you recall, please, the occasion in June 1994
19 when you were summoned to a court and asked questions
20 about these matters?
21 A. I do not remember.
22 Q. Can I ask you to look at, please, a document and ask you
23 to identify your signature, please? Mrs Cecez, take
24 your time, if you need to, but just look at that
25 document and see if you can see your signature at the
1 bottom of each page?
2 A. It is my signature.
3 Q. Thank you very much. Would you just read the top part
4 of the first page, please?
5 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: The document is not in evidence yet.
6 MR GREAVES: I am just asking her to refresh her memory, if
7 she would, please.
8 JUDGE JAN: Are you exhibiting it?
9 MR GREAVES: I am not exhibiting it at this moment. Thank
10 you very much. I just want to ask her to refresh her
11 memory about her signature and where it was taken.
12 JUDGE JAN: I suggest you bring the document up and refer
13 it, if you plan it to be recorded.
14 A. It is my signature but I don't know how is it possible
15 it is in Nevesinje. Maybe these people who took down
16 these notes put "Nevesinje" on top.
17 MR GREAVES: I just want to establish that it is her
18 signature, your Honour. Thank you very much, Mrs Cecez.
19 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: It does not appear to go to any issue
20 at the moment.
21 MR GREAVES: No. We will come to it in a moment, if we may,
22 please. Thank you very much, Mrs Cecez. You do not
23 need to look at that at the moment. You think it was
24 somewhere else that you attended that day; is that
1 A. I don't remember the day, but I didn't make any
2 statements in Nevesinje, as far as I can remember. Only
3 in Borci. Maybe those people by omission put
4 Nevesinje. I don't know.
5 Q. That is perfectly possible. It may not matter where it
6 was. But in any event do you recall answering questions
7 about two and a half years ago?
8 A. If they asked me, I probably answered, as far as I could
10 Q. Before you were asked the questions, do you recall this:
11 you were warned of the obligation to tell the truth?
12 A. I don't remember.
13 Q. And warned of the obligation not to suppress facts?
14 A. I do not conceal facts. I tell the truth always, as far
15 as I can remember.
16 Q. And you were reminded of that on that occasion, were you
17 not, your duty to do that?
18 MS McHENRY: Your Honour, I must object. This has been
19 asked and answered.
20 JUDGE JAN: I do not think he has answered the question.
21 She says: "I do not." The learned counsel is asking
22 her whether she was reminded of her obligation. That is
23 a different question and different answer from the one
24 "I always speak the truth."
25 MR GREAVES: Thank you very much, your Honour. I will ask
1 the question again.
2 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Actually the contention again is a
3 different one. She does not even remember making any
4 statement at that place.
5 MR GREAVES: Your Honour is quite right. In fact, she has
6 answered that and perhaps I am being excessive in going
7 through it in such detail and I ask your forgiveness.
8 In any event you signed on those pages, Mrs Cecez?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Will you accept from me that in that account that you
11 gave you told that court while you were in the camp Pavo
12 Mucic did not visit, and I only saw him a few times?
13 A. He didn't enter our room. Only on one occasion with a
14 little girl he came in and left.
15 Q. I suggest to you that you only saw him a few times,
16 because he only arrived at the camp in early August
18 MS McHENRY: Is there a question?
19 A. He was there the first evening. The first evening he
20 was there.
21 MR GREAVES: Mrs Cecez, what I want to ask you is this: he
22 was not there on the first evening, was he?
23 A. As soon as I arrived, he came on that same evening, on
24 27th May.
25 Q. In the account that you gave in 1994 you did not mention
1 that Pavo Mucic was there on the night that you arrived
2 at Celebici camp, did you?
3 A. He was there. I am sure of that. He was there. Maybe
4 I left it out. I don't know exactly what I said, but I
5 am sure he was there.
6 Q. And it is only since 1994 that you have said that he was
7 there on that first night?
8 A. I always claim that he was there and he was there. I am
9 sure of it.
10 Q. There was no mention at any time of the incident
11 involving the machine gun?
12 MS McHENRY: Is that a question, your Honour? I must
13 object to this form of examination.
14 MR GREAVES: I think it is a question, yes. Thank you very
16 At no time I suggest to you did you ever say to
17 anybody any incident concerning the machine gun?
18 A. Maybe at that moment I didn't remember it, but whenever
19 I met with people, with my children, I spoke about it,
20 but maybe on that particular occasion I left it out. I
21 claim that that was what happened. He was there and he
23 Q. I suggest to you that that incident never happened?
24 A. It did happen. It did.
25 Q. Certainly Pavo Mucic never took part in any such
2 A. He did. I saw him with my own eyes, and no-one can
3 persuade me otherwise.
4 Q. What I suggest to you is that you saw more of him after
5 your release than you did at the camp?
6 A. No. I saw him in camp more often than when I was
8 Q. Can you help us about this: do you know the man called
10 A. No, no. No, I don't know.
11 Q. Thank you very much.
12 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Is that the end of the
14 MR GREAVES: Yes, thank you.
15 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Any re-examination?
16 MS McHENRY: No, your Honour.
17 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: The witness can now stand down.
18 Except you have any other things for her, she
19 should be released.
20 A. Thank you for listening to me with attention. I am very
21 grateful to you. Thank you and goodbye.
22 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Thank you very much.
23 (Witness withdrew)
24 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Any other witness?
25 MR OSTBERG: Yes, your Honour, we have our next witness, the
1 expert witness of the prosecution.
2 However, it is soon 5 o'clock and it is the wish
3 of the expert witness to start afresh tomorrow and give
4 her statement in one turn. I just bring that to you,
5 but we are in principle ready.
6 MR KARIBI WHYTE: Is the witness around?
7 MR OSTBERG: The witness is around, your Honour.
8 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: I think ideally she can start tonight.
9 JUDGE JAN: We have 40 minutes.
10 MR OSTBERG: Then I wish to call Dr Calic as my next
12 MR OSTBERG: In the meantime, your Honour, I can inform the
13 Trial Chamber about Mr Rod Dixon who is helping us with
14 the paper supporting our expert witness with exhibits
15 and things.
16 DR MARIE-JANINE CALIC (sworn)
17 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Okay. You can sit down. Take a
19 Examined by MR OSTBERG
20 MR OSTBERG: Are you ready?
21 A. I am ready.
22 Q. May I proceed, your Honour?
23 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Yes. At least you have 35 minutes of
25 MR OSTBERG: Thank you. Please state to the court your
1 full name?
2 A. My name is Marie-Janine Calic.
3 Q. One of the defence lawyers tried to question your
4 objectivity at this time because of your name. Does it
5 have a Slav or Serbian ring to it, your name?
6 A. This is my father's name and my father is born in
7 Istria, which today is a part of Croatia, but he left
8 the country before the Second World War. My mother is
9 German. I was born in Germany and brought up there and
10 I am a German citizen.
11 Q. Thank you. Do you have any ties to any of the parties
12 to the Yugoslav conflict?
13 A. No, I have no ties. I have a lot of professional
14 contacts in several republics of the former Yugoslavia.
15 Q. Do you belong to any religions of these parties?
16 A. I belong to no religion.
17 Q. None at all?
18 A. None at all.
19 Q. Do you consider yourself an unbiased and objective
20 scholar in the field of your expertise?
21 A. Yes, I do.
22 Q. Will you please tell the court about your present
24 A. I am working in a research institute for international
25 affairs. This is a kind of a German think-tank. It is
1 of a private foundation, but it is financed by the
2 federal budget of Germany. We are supposed to provide
3 the German ministries and the German Parliament with
4 analysis in the field of international affairs. I am
5 there the person who is concentrated on South-eastern
6 Europe. I have been working there since 1992, and I
7 mainly concentrated on the area of the former
9 Q. How many scholars or academics are working in this
11 A. About fifty.
12 Q. Fifty?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. I have in a binder, which I will -- which already has
15 been presented to the defence, and which I would like to
16 also bring to the court. It consists of 58 documents,
17 which I intend to offer or tender as evidence when I
18 have finished my examination of Dr Calic, who is going
19 to rely on many of these documents during her
20 presentation. They are, as far as I know, not yet
21 marked for identification, and I think maybe that can
22 also wait until they are tendered. We have three
23 binders for the members of the court? Thank you.
24 JUDGE JAN: These documents have been prepared by the
1 MR OSTBERG: I beg your pardon?
2 JUDGE JAN: These documents have been prepared by the
4 MR OSTBERG: Yes. The first document, Dr Calic, in this
5 binder is your curriculum vitae. I am not going to go
6 through it with you. I would just like to ask you a few
7 things about it. What is the title of your doctoral
9 A. The title is "The Social History of Serbia in the 19th
10 and First Half of the 20th Centuries".
11 Q. How many works including books and major articles have
12 you published in this field of your expertise?
13 A. About fifty.
14 Q. When was the first one and when was the last one?
15 A. The first one was, if I recall well, in 1985 and the
16 last one recently, very recently, a few weeks ago.
17 Q. So this is over a period of 12 years?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. When did you get your doctorate?
20 A. I got it in 1992.
21 Q. Is it correct that you were invited by the Office of the
22 Prosecutor to appear before this Trial Chamber as an
23 expert witness in this trial?
24 A. This is correct.
25 Q. How did you go about preparing your statement to give to
1 this court?
2 A. I relied mostly on documents and research which I have
3 done before during my professional experience in this
4 field, and I was also given some documents by the Office
5 of the Prosecution. They included also documents coming
6 from the defence.
7 Q. When did you start to prepare for this expert statement
8 you are supposed to give to us?
9 A. I started to prepare by the end of last year, in
11 Q. Your Honours, I have just seen to it that you have been
12 served with this binder with these documents in. I have
13 agreed with Dr Calic to go through her statement as it
14 appears in the written report and then, when passing
15 through it, have Dr Calic present these documents on
16 which she relies to us.
17 May I now ask you, Dr Calic, to start your
18 statement by giving us a background to the conflict and
19 start by telling us something about the main political
20 and military developments and structures in
21 Bosnia-Herzegovina after 1990?
22 A. Shall I start right now?
23 Q. Yes.
24 A. Of course. Let me say first this report I have done is
25 based mostly on my personal research, but I also rely on
1 experts in this field. I used documents coming from the
2 former Yugoslavia. I used reports from international
3 organisations, and, as I was saying before, I also used
4 some documents made available to me by the Office of the
6 I have concentrated in this report on certain
7 questions, so I also would like to stress that this is
8 not a comprehensive report on everything that was going
9 on in the former Yugoslavia, but I have chosen certain
10 areas, and these areas are the main political and
11 military developments and structures in Bosnia and
12 Herzegovina after 1990.
13 In the second part I --
14 Q. Maybe, Dr Calic, you should not speak so fast, because
15 we have a translations problem here, and then it is also
16 heavy stuff you are bringing us, so please try to speak
17 not too fast. Thank you.
18 A. Yes, I will. I then would like to concentrate on the
19 main military forces in the Republic of Bosnia and
20 Herzegovina in 1992. I go through the main political,
21 military and legal functions of the Yugoslav
22 municipalities. I am going through the main
23 characteristics of the municipality of Konjic, and I
24 also try to reconstruct the main developments, political
25 and military developments, in the Konjic municipality in
2 Before I start with my first part, I would like to
3 present a map.
4 Q. Yes, please.
5 A. This is document number 2 in this binder, and document
6 number 2 is the map of Jugoslavia before the war.
7 Should I put it on the ELMO?
8 Q. Yes. We have nothing in the computer system, so I think
9 you should put these things on the ELMO. Could somebody
10 assist Dr Calic with some light there?
11 A. Can I go on? The Socialist Federal Republic of
12 Yugoslavia comprised of six republics, Slovenia,
13 Croatia, Serbia, Montenegro, Macedonia --
14 Q. We see you, Dr Calic, but we don't see the map.
15 A. I see the model.
16 MR OSTBERG: Could we arrange it so we can see even the map
17 on our screens? I don't know how this works, or do we
18 just look upon it in our -- somebody is coming.
19 A. Does it work now?
20 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Is this map available to the defence?
21 MR OSTBERG: Yes, the defence has the same.
22 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: I think it is now appearing on the
24 MS McMURREY: Your Honour, if I might suggest, the
25 prosecution did provide all of us with the notebooks, as
1 you have on your desk, but because we did not take a
2 break between witnesses our notebooks are in the defence
3 room. We would probably be more at an advantage if we
4 had our notebooks in front of us so we could follow
5 along also, but they are in the defence room as we
7 MR OSTBERG: These things we are talking about --
8 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: This is not a difficult aspect of it.
9 That is clear.
10 MR OSTBERG: What we have for the moment is the map. I
11 think you can proceed.
12 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: It is simple.
13 MS RESIDOVIC (in interpretation): Your Honour, we have
14 only part of the map of Yugoslavia,. Slovenia and
15 Macedonia cannot be seen. Could we please have a map of
16 the whole SFRY? It is only one. This one has a
17 different name now.
18 MR OSTBERG: It has to be moved and we can see all of it.
19 A. It can be moved. Like this you see Slovenia and like
20 this you see Macedonia. I think it is a technical
21 problem. It is not a problem of the map.
22 MS RESIDOVIC (in interpretation): It is a technical
23 problem but it is important.
24 MR OSTBERG: Now you see all of it. Please, Dr Calic.
25 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: You carry on?
1 A. Can I continue?
2 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Yes.
3 A. Okay. Six republics, with the Republic of
4 Bosnia-Herzegovina in the middle. The Federation
5 embraced the complex mix of ethnic groups and no single
6 group was wholly contained within any republic.
7 Bosnia: many people believe that Bosnia was the
8 heart of Yugoslavia not only because it was in the
9 middle but also it had the form of a heart and also
10 because of its ethnic composition.
11 Let me put briefly document number 3, a map of the
12 ethnic composition of Yugoslavia in 1991, and I hope we
13 will not have the same problem with the screen. No, we
15 MR OSTBERG: There we are. We see it all. Thank you?
16 A. All together there were about 20 nations and
17 nationalities living in Yugoslavia and also in Bosnia
18 were living 20 nations and nationalities. For
19 political, constitutional and social and economic
20 reasons Yugoslavia started to dissolve at the end of the
21 1980s. On 25th June 1991 Slovenia and Croatia declared
22 their independence. Serbia and Montenegro on the other
23 hand, as well as many Serbs living in Croatia and in
24 Serbia and in Bosnia claimed they wished to preserve
1 Immediately after the declaration of independence
2 the first armed conflicts erupted between the
3 newly-created armed forces of Slovenia and Croatia on
4 the one side, and the federal and the Serb armed forces
5 on the other side.
6 In the light of these events the general situation
7 in Bosnia started to deteriorate very rapidly.
8 According to the 1991 census Bosnia and Herzegovina's
9 population of 4.4 million was composed of 43 per cent
10 Muslims; 31 per cent Serbs; and 17 per cent Croats.
11 Many parts of this country were ethnically mixed.
12 We have to illustrate this fact a fourth document,
13 document number 4. Bosnia, because of this fact, was
14 called a little Yugoslavia. Bosnians often claimed that
15 it was exactly the other way round, that Yugoslavia was,
16 in fact, a big Bosnia.
17 In the first multi-party elections of November
18 1990 in Bosnia and Herzegovina the three
19 national-oriented parties, SDA, the Muslim-dominated
20 party of Democratic Action; the SDS, the Serb-dominated
21 party; and the HDZ, the Croat- dominated party, got the
22 majority of the seats in the National Assembly. There
23 were altogether 41 parties --
24 MS McMURREY: I am sorry, your Honours. I believe she
25 refers to a document number 4 that we do not have on our
1 screen or anything that she is testifying from. Is
2 there a document number 4 that we are supposed to be
4 A. It is the population census of Bosnia in 1991.
5 MR OSTBERG: Can that be -- is it possible to show it on
6 the ELMO?
7 A. Yes.
8 MS McMURREY: Thank you.
9 MR OSTBERG: If it can be read there. I don't know if it
10 is possible to enlarge it. Yes, it is indeed. That was
11 a bit too much really.
12 A. You actually wanted to see the population census?
13 MS McMURREY: We just wanted to know what you were
14 testifying from, because we had no evidence of it.
15 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Actually you do not really need what
16 she was testifying from.
17 MS McMURREY: I believe we do.
18 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: She need not produce this if she can
19 tell it. She is testifying as an expert.
20 MR OSTBERG: Can you in understandable terms summarise it
21 to us?
22 A. Yes, I believe I just did. It is the population figures
23 for Bosnia and Herzegovina in 1991 from the official
24 Bosnian census, and what I wanted to say is that the
25 population of 40.3 million people was composed of about
1 43 per cent Muslims, 31 per cent Serbs and 17 per cent
2 Croats. There were, of course, many other nations and
3 nationalities. We can see them also from the same
4 document. This is all what I wanted to say with this
6 Q. Under the headline "Total"?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. We cannot read the numbers. Can we move this on the
9 screen to the margin so we can see --
10 A. Which numbers?
11 Q. The composition of it? If you start from -- just to
12 help the defence --
13 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: I do not know why we are wasting time
14 on a matter of public record. These are records which
15 can be got anywhere.
16 JUDGE JAN: I want to find out what does the word "Hrvati"
18 A. Sorry?
19 JUDGE JAN: There is writing at the top of this document
20 number 4, "Hrvati". Under that is "Musilmani"; then
22 MR OSTBERG: Croats.
23 A. Yes, they are Croats.
24 JUDGE JAN: How do you pronounce it?
25 A. Hrvati.
1 JUDGE JAN: Hrvati. So I can write down, it is really
3 A. I already mentioned the first elections of November
4 1990. 41 parties, but only five of them were bigger
5 parties, and the three national-oriented parties. This
6 is again -- yes, it has to be reduced -- of SDA, HDZ and
7 SDS got the majority of the votes.
8 MR OSTBERG: Could you clarify for us -- I think we all
9 understand with these green, red and blue sectors of
10 this circle, but if we go to the SKSDP and SRSJ and
11 others, would you please expand on that a bit, so we can
12 understand what that is?
13 A. Of course. The SKSDP is the League of Communists, a
14 former communist party. The SRSJ is the Alliance of
15 Reformed Forces. The two parties were Yugoslav-oriented
16 ethnically mixed, explicitly ethnically mixed parties,
17 but they were defeated in these elections, and, as I was
18 saying before, the majority of seats going to the three
19 national-oriented parties.
20 JUDGE JAN: What was the total number of seats?
21 A. Sorry?
22 JUDGE JAN: What was the total number of seats?
23 A. 240.
24 MR OSTBERG: In the black sector there were how many
1 A. There were 35 other parties, but they got so few votes
2 that it is not even worth mentioning them. They were a
3 regional-based parties and others. So 35. The
4 important thing is that the election results more or
5 less reflected the ethnic composition of Bosnia's
6 population and that the three big parties agreed to form
7 a coalition government. Each of them was represented in
8 the seven-member presidency of the Bosnian state. The
9 Muslim Alija Izetbegovic became President of the
10 Republican Presidency; the Serb politician Krajisnik was
11 appointed President of the National Assembly; and the
12 Croat Pelivan was chosen to be the Prime Minister.
13 The three national parties, however, became very
14 soon after the elections deadlocked over two very
15 important questions. The first question concerned the
16 political status of Bosnia. Should Yugoslavia be
17 dissolved, so the question was: should Bosnia also
18 become independent? Should other republics cede from
19 Yugoslavia or should Yugoslavia be dissolved?
20 The second important question was: how should the
21 multi-ethnic Republic of Bosnia be structured
22 constitutionally then? Should it be a centralised state
23 or should it be a federal state? So the two questions,
24 political status and future constitutional set-up, were
25 discussed, and actually the parties became then
1 deadlocked over these two questions.
2 As far as the first question, the question of the
3 constitution, the Serbs and later on also the Croat
4 leadership, who had in mind the unification of their
5 national with their mother countries, they proposed the
6 cantonisation of Bosnia into three or more ethnically
7 defined regions. Many were talking about the Swiss
8 model at that time.
9 Cantonisation was on the agenda. The Muslim
10 leadership, on the other hand, sought to preserve Bosnia
11 as a unified, multi-ethnic and as a unitarian state.
12 This had, of course, several reasons. One reason was
13 the way how the people of Yugoslavia settled. Muslims
14 were concentrated in towns, and for them it would have
15 been much more difficult to carve out cantons,
16 ethnically defined cantons than, for example, for the
17 Croats, who were settling more compact near the border
18 of Croatia, but, of course, also Serbs and Croats were
19 somehow scattered across Bosnia.
20 There were also many mixed marriages and many
21 mixed families, so this was another problem, and there
22 was also the danger that the state of Bosnia would soon
23 split up once the constitution was based on ethnic
25 The debate over how to reconstruct the Republic of
1 Bosnia created a constitutional and also legal vacuum in
2 1991, and together with the war in Croatia it
3 accelerated the difficulties of Bosnian society along
4 ethnic lines. All three parties placed greater emphasis
5 on ethnic criteria in public life and step by step
6 ethnic polarisation occurred nearly everywhere in the
7 Bosnian society, in the media, public life, education
8 system and also in the security forces, but I will come
9 back to this problem later.
10 In this context the question of whether Bosnia
11 should become independent or not had arisen. Croatia
12 and Slovenia in late 1990 had proposed to transform
13 Yugoslavia into a confederation of quasi-independent
14 states with very big, weak common confederal
15 institutions. Serbia had opposed this plan while Bosnia
16 and Macedonia presented a compromise plan. This was in
17 June 1991 and this plan was rejected by the other
19 After the outbreak of war in Croatia in the summer
20 of 1991 the SDA and also the HDZ started to favour
21 independence. The Bosnian Serb leadership, on the other
22 hand, was against independence, and they had already
23 taken steps towards forming autonomous areas with
24 quasi-state powers, and they declared in September 1991
25 some of these areas as Serbian autonomous areas.
1 The crisis came to a head in October 1991, when
2 the Croat and the Muslim members of the Parliament
3 declared Bosnia's sovereignty -- this was on 14th
4 October 1991 -- while the Serb representatives had
5 declared their opposition to independence. To
6 illustrate this debate over the future of Bosnia I
7 included in the file a document number 6 by the European
8 Commission. It is Opinion Number 1 of the European
9 Commission's Arbitration Commission. Can we see it on
10 the screen? Yes.
11 Q. With the heading number "137"?
12 A. Opinion Number 1 of the Arbitration Commission on the
13 Peace Conference on Yugoslavia. The peace conference
14 was established in September 1991 and they also formed
15 this Arbitration Commission under the French
16 constitutional expert Badinter, so this is the Opinion
17 Number 1 of the so-called Badinter Commission. I don't
18 know if you can read it either on the document or on the
20 Q. I think it is readable.
21 A. I know it is readable.
22 Q. It is not?
23 A. For me it is. Is it for you?
24 Q. It is on the screen, I suppose, readable for these who
25 do not have the document in their hand.
1 JUDGE JAN: It is in here also.
2 MR OSTBERG: It is in the binder, but I think people who do
3 not have the binder, because it is elsewhere in the
4 building, can read it on the screen.
5 A. So the European Union's Communities at this time -- the
6 European Union's Arbitration Commission recognised that
7 there was a very serious debate over major legal
9 JUDGE JAN: Just a minute. Arbitration Commission. An
10 arbitration needs a prior agreement to refer a matter to
11 arbitration. Who appointed the Arbitration Commission?
12 A. The European Commission established in September 1991
13 peace conference. The idea of this peace conference was
14 to mediate between the parties to the conflict, that is
15 to say between the leaderships of the former republics,
16 and there were quite a lot of activities going on within
17 this conference, and one of the activities was the
18 creation of this Arbitration Commission, and they
19 formulated a number of opinions. This is the first. I
20 come later back to another opinion of this Arbitration
21 Commission to illustrate a different event.
22 This is to show and to -- yes, to show how serious
23 and how concerned also the international community was
24 about what was going on in the former Yugoslavia. It
1 "Serbia considers that those republics which have
2 declared or would declare themselves independent of
3 sovereignty have seceded or would secede from the SFRY,
4 which would otherwise continue to exist.
5 Other republics on the country consider that there
6 is no question of cessation, but the question is one of
7 disintegration or breaking up of the SFRY as the result
8 of the concurring work of a number of republics".
9 This is the very --
10 Q. Can I just interrupt? The question from Judge Jan, who
11 said: 'Who set up this Arbitration Committee?', was
12 this formed by this conference which was convened on
13 Yugoslavia here in The Hague, if I remember correctly?
14 A. That is correct.
15 Q. That was in November 1991?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Thank you. This conference made a decision to set up an
18 Arbitration Committee?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. How big was that Arbitration Committee?
21 A. Five members.
22 Q. Five members. That had the name of Badinter?
23 A. The name was correctly Arbitration Committee --
24 Arbitration Commission -- I am sorry -- of the Peace
25 Conference on Yugoslavia, but it is known under the name
1 of Badinter. If you refer to Badinter Commission, then
2 more people will understand than if you refer to the
3 Arbitration Commission.
4 Q. Thank you.
5 A. So this is the very essence of how the conflict started
6 or what the conflict was about, two very different
7 opinions between the republics of the former Yugoslavia
8 on how the future of Yugoslavia should look like.
9 The Serbs continued to contest the legitimacy of
10 the sovereignty declaration of the Muslim and Croat
11 members of the Parliament. They left not only the
12 Bosnian Parliament in October 1991 but also other state
13 institutions, and they created their own Parliament and
14 Assembly of the Serbian people in Bosnia-Herzegovina.
15 On 24th October 1991 they took a decision for the
16 Serbian people in Bosnia-Herzegovina to remain in the
17 common state of Yugoslavia, and this is my document
18 number 7.
19 JUDGE JAN: There is no translation of this document.
20 MR OSTBERG: Yes.
21 JUDGE JAN: Quite right.
22 MR OSTBERG: There is a translation.
23 A. Number 7. Document number 8 immediately relates to --
24 MR OSTBERG: Under number 7?
25 A. Number 7. So the decision --
1 MR OSTBERG: The last page. Yes, please?
2 A. -- decision to remain in the Joint Federal State of
3 Yugoslavia. The same day the Serbs took also the
4 decision to create a kind of official representation, a
5 kind of government.
6 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: I think we might rise now and you will
7 continue tomorrow morning --
8 A. Okay.
9 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: -- at 10.30 tomorrow morning. I think
10 it might be better the next day.
11 MR OSTBERG: Your Honour, may I just as a question of order
12 ask the Chamber to agree to have these documents marked
13 as Prosecution Exhibits 6-63 for further entering as
14 evidence. Just do the marking of them, so we have track
15 of them.
16 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: We will do that.
17 MR OSTBERG: 6-63. Thank you.
18 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: The Trial Chamber will now rise and
19 resume tomorrow at 10.30.
20 (Hearing adjourned until 10.30 tomorrow morning)