1 Tuesday, 25th March 1997

2 (10.00 am)

3 MR BRANKO GOTOVAC (continued)

4 Cross-examined by MS McMURREY (continued)

5 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Good morning, ladies and gentlemen.

6 We are still continuing with the cross-examination of

7 the witness. Kindly call the witness.

8 (Witness entered court)

9 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Please inform the witness he is still

10 on his oath.

11 THE REGISTRAR: I want to remind you that you are still

12 under oath.

13 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Yes, Ms McMurrey. You are free now.

14 You can continue.

15 MS McMURREY: Thank you, your Honour. Dobodan,

16 Mr Gotovac.

17 A. (In interpretation) Good morning.

18 Q. Or is it "Dobonutra"?

19 A. Good morning.

20 Q. I want to go back. We were continuing our

21 cross-examination yesterday and I asked you a lot of

22 questions, but there are some things that I want to go

23 back to clarify. You stated that your profession was a

24 locksmith; is that correct?

25 A. Yes.

1 Q. A locksmith in your country is not someone who makes

2 keys and sets locks, is it?

3 A. Let me explain to you. I was involved in maintenance of

4 all the fixtures and furnishings.

5 Q. Yes. So from our standpoint a locksmith would be like a

6 machine repairman, would he not?

7 A. I was mostly involved with tools and storage area.

8 Q. And when you say tools, you used heavy machinery; is

9 that correct?

10 A. No.

11 Q. When you say tools, what kind of machinery did you use?

12 A. I did not use any machines. I was a locksmith. That is

13 a metal worker. I was involved in maintaining tools and

14 sometimes I would be bringing tools in and so on.

15 Q. I am just trying to figure out what kind of tools. When

16 you say you are a metal worker, did you work with some

17 kind of metal-making machine of some sort?

18 A. No. I mostly worked in the warehouse. I was issuing

19 tools and I was taking tools to the maintenance and so

20 on.

21 Q. Okay. I think I understand your position now. Thank

22 you very much.

23 I want to go -- I would like to go back now to

24 building number 22 that we discussed yesterday and, just

25 for clarification purposes, you were in building number

1 2 from May 23rd until about June 13th; is that correct?

2 A. Yes, approximately. I did not count the days. I did

3 not know the exact dates.

4 Q. At the time that you were in building number 22, the

5 first time, it was not an infirmary or a hospital. It

6 was just a holding facility; is that not correct?

7 A. No. It was a storage area for fire-fighting equipment.

8 There were hoses there and a pump.

9 Q. For the purposes of the people in number 22, they were

10 not being treated for injuries then; they were being

11 held at that point, were they not?

12 A. Yes. They were detained there. They were under arrest,

13 whichever way you want to put it.

14 Q. Then some time in the middle of June you had an

15 interview with some people, and then you were moved to

16 hangar number 6; is that correct?

17 A. I don't know who I talked to, but I was transferred to

18 hangar number 6.

19 Q. Then from the middle of June until some time in the

20 early part of July you were in hangar number 6; is that

21 correct?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Then some time early in July you were transferred back

24 to building number 22 until August 30th, and you

25 remained there during that period of time; is that

1 correct?

2 A. Yes. I remained there until 30th August.

3 Q. Then during the time you were in building number 22, the

4 second time, it was being utilised as a medical facility

5 or an infirmary of some sort, was it not?

6 A. Yes. There were 12 beds there and 12 patients, and

7 there were two doctors, who were also prisoners, who

8 worked there, a male nurse and so on. The male nurse

9 was also a prisoner.

10 Q. You just told us today for the first time that there

11 were 12 beds inside the infirmary; is that correct?

12 A. I think I told you that before.

13 Q. In building number 22 you could not see from building

14 number 22 to tunnel Number 9, could you?

15 A. No.

16 Q. And, in fact, tunnel Number 9 was at least 60 metres

17 away from building number 22, was it not?

18 A. I don't know.

19 Q. Now, when you were moved to hangar number 6, I would

20 like to ask you to -- can you draw? -- If I were to give

21 you a piece of paper, can you draw the seating

22 arrangement as you remember it of the prisoners inside

23 hangar number 6?

24 A. Well, there was a circle or row all around the room and

25 there were two rows down the middle of the room, and of

1 course we sat on the concrete.

2 Q. You were seated in one of the rows down the middle of

3 the hangar number 6, were you not?

4 A. Yes, in the middle, in one of the rows in the middle.

5 Q. You were seated actually on the -- from hangar number 6,

6 as you walk in through the door, there is a row in the

7 middle directly to the left and then there would be

8 called the second row in the middle, would there not?

9 A. There were two rows.

10 Q. And you were seated for basically almost a month on the

11 second row in the middle, were you not?

12 A. Well, I guess it was the second row. I really don't

13 know.

14 Q. It was the row closest to the back of hangar number 6,

15 was it not?

16 A. Yes. It wasn't very far from the door.

17 Q. But it was the one closest to the back. It was not the

18 row closest to the door, was it?

19 A. Yes. I was in one of the rows that were in the middle

20 of the room. I was very close to the exit door.

21 Q. So it's your testimony to this court today that you were

22 not in the second half of the row towards the back. Is

23 that what you are saying today?

24 A. I can't really describe now which row is the first one

25 and which is the second one. I can only tell you that I

1 sat in one of them.

2 Q. If I gave you have a clean piece of paper right now,

3 could you draw a photograph -- I mean a drawing and

4 illustrate where you were sitting in the hangar?

5 A. I couldn't really draw. I think it is not really

6 difficult to explain if you look from above towards the

7 door, I sat in the middle row to the left, if you look

8 down the hangar towards the exit door.

9 Q. Your Honours, may I just offer him a piece of paper and

10 see if he can --

11 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: He has told you he cannot. Why are

12 you offering him? He has told you a few seconds ago.

13 MS McMURREY: I am just trying to clarify for the court

14 where he was sitting.

15 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: He just stated that.

16 MS McMURREY: I believe if he illustrated where he was

17 sitting he would not be close to the door. He has said

18 he was close to the door.

19 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: It is easy to explain. That is what

20 he said.

21 MS McMURREY: Are you clear from his explanation, your

22 Honour?

23 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: You are asking the questions. It is

24 for you to get out of the questions what you want.

25 MS McMURREY: I just want it to be clear for the court.

1 That is all.

2 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: It is your case. We will know how to

3 deal with it.

4 MS McMURREY: All right. Let me ask you about hangar

5 number 6. You claimed it was 200 x 40 metres; is that

6 correct? I am sorry. Did you say it was 200 --

7 A. I don't recall really. I don't know if this is the

8 size. Do you mean the length of the hangar? I don't

9 know if it was 240 metres long.

10 Q. I think the dimensions you quoted were 200 x 40, so it

11 would be 200 metres long and 40 metres wide. Is that

12 about what you remember?

13 A. It was my assessment. It may have been smaller than

14 that.

15 JUDGE JAN: 200 metres long?

16 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: That is very long.

17 JUDGE JAN: That is more than a furlong.

18 MS McMURREY: Yes, I know it is very long. I think it is

19 probably longer.

20 A. It was very long.

21 MS McMURREY: I believe that is what the witness had stated

22 before. That is why I was trying to clarify.

23 JUDGE JAN: I can understand 200 feet, but 200 metres long

24 ...

25 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Metres? More than 600 feet.

1 JUDGE JAN: You can have 1,000 persons in 200 metres long.

2 MS McMURREY: Is that like a football field? I am sorry.

3 I am really not familiar with metres myself, so it is

4 difficult for me to visualise. I think the way he

5 stated it was much larger than it was actually. I was

6 just trying to clarify his perception of the building

7 itself.

8 JUDGE JAN: 110 yards would make 100 metres.

9 A. It was longer than it was wide. That is for sure.

10 MS McMURREY: Okay. I think the court is aware of the

11 approximate size of the building itself, but I also want

12 to clarify: while you were sitting in there for almost a

13 month, there are no windows that anybody can look out of

14 that hangar, are there?

15 A. There were windows, but they were placed very high and

16 they were closed.

17 Q. And the windows are up near where the ceiling meets the

18 walls at about 3 metres up; is that right?

19 A. The ceiling was arched and the height from the concrete

20 floor up to the windows was about 3 metres. We didn't

21 measure it. We had to look straight ahead of us. We

22 could not look around.

23 Q. Havala.

24 A. You're welcome.

25 Q. There was only one door that was used while you were

1 there. It was a small door to the right as you faced

2 hangar number 6; is that not correct?

3 A. There was one door.

4 Q. At night you had a toilet can inside the hangar that you

5 all used to relieve yourself that was taken out and

6 cleaned during the day, was it not?

7 A. Yes, it was right next to the door.

8 Q. The doors -- there were some sliding doors in the front

9 of the hangar that were never opened; is that not

10 correct?

11 A. I don't know about those doors. I haven't seen them.

12 Q. Well, the wall that faced the front of hangar number 6,

13 what I would like for you to show the court is that

14 there were no holes in that wall through which you could

15 look out, were there?

16 A. No.

17 Q. And although you were sitting in the middle of the

18 building, around the bottom of the building from the

19 inside it was sealed from the wall to the floor, was it

20 not? You were not able to reach your hands out of the

21 building, were you?

22 A. No, no, we were not able to.

23 Q. And whenever you had to go to the toilet, they provided

24 toilets for you toward the back of the hangar number 6,

25 did they not?

1 A. In front of the hangar on the canal, on the ditch. That

2 was for urination. We would go there in groups of five

3 to six and later on fifteen, ten.

4 Q. Now, you participated in digging a trench that was used

5 as a toilet facility, did you not?

6 A. I did not.

7 Q. Are you telling the court you did not dig a trench?

8 A. No.

9 Q. You also stated that the food was little and you were

10 just served stale bread; is that correct?

11 A. I don't understand the word that was used in the

12 translation. Could you please repeat your question?

13 Q. That you had very little food and what you were served

14 was very old, hard bread; is that correct?

15 JUDGE JAN: Just hold on for a minute. I do not think we

16 have got his answer.

17 A. We used the word that means "stale". Yes, it was very

18 old.

19 JUDGE JAN: I don't think the answer that has come on the

20 transcript is clear. You said: "Are you telling the

21 court that you did not help in digging the trench?" He

22 says: "No". He really means: "Yes, I did not". Here

23 it would be: "I was not telling this court". So the

24 transcript is not correct. I think the idiom in English

25 is slightly different. When you say in the positive you

1 say: "Yes, I did". You do not say: "No" as an answer

2 to a negative question. The idiom in English is

3 slightly different. Probably the evidence in a

4 different language is coming out, so the transcript is

5 not truly representing the answer which is given.

6 MS McMURREY: Okay. I can clarify that.

7 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Let us go back a little bit.

8 MS McMURREY: Okay. I will ask him the same question.

9 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: There were two questions.

10 MS McMURREY: Mr Gotovac, you stated to this court that you

11 did not dig a trench.

12 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: No. The first question: "You did not

13 participate in digging a trench?"

14 MS McMURREY: I am not reading it.

15 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: When he said: "No", then you asked

16 whether he did not dig this trench. That was the

17 sequence.

18 JUDGE JAN: Yes. He said: "Yes, I did not tell the court",

19 not "no".

20 A. I did not dig.

21 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Those were the questions.

22 JUDGE JAN: That is not the full answer. The transcript

23 does not represent truly what he said because of the

24 difference in the idiom in the English language. He

25 should give the answer in the positive: "Yes, I did

1 it", no matter what the form of the question is. When

2 he wants: "No, I did not", the answer will be clear.

3 MS McMURREY: Now is the record clear?

4 JUDGE JAN: I think so. Some of the answers are coming in

5 that form. So I just wanted to warn you.

6 MS McMURREY: Thank you very much. I appreciate it. If I

7 am asking the question in the wrong form, please let me

8 know, because of course I do not speak Bosnian.

9 JUDGE JAN: You are not asking questions in the wrong

10 form. It is a translation in a different language, the

11 idiom being different.

12 MS McMURREY: Okay. Just let me know if I need to go

13 back. I will be happy to, but the statement was that

14 Mr Gotovac did not participate in digging a trench.

15 Okay.

16 Now you said that there was very little food and

17 the food that was served to you was hard, old bread; is

18 that correct?

19 A. Yes, it was stale. The bread was stale.

20 Q. You also claimed while you were in the medical facility

21 that the facilities were terrible. You did not have

22 medicine, you did not have enough water and you did not

23 have enough food; is that correct?

24 A. Yes. I do not know what kind of infirmary you are

25 referring to, when this was just a storage facility for

1 fire-fighting equipment. There can't be any facilities

2 for providing medical treatment there.

3 Q. Mr Gotovac, we all know when you were in building 22

4 from 15th July to August 30th, it was being used to

5 treat ill people, was it not?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Thank you. Now I would like to show you a videotape,

8 and I would like for you to identify some of these

9 people on the videotape for me, if you do not mind. I

10 am going to ask the Video Department to play the

11 videotape now.

12 Your Honours, I would like to say that this is a

13 videotape that we got from the prosecution, so they are

14 aware of it. It was seized by the prosecution from

15 Mr Delalic. So I would like to run this small -- it is

16 only about one minute -- videotape, if you do not mind.

17 MS McHENRY: Your Honour, I do not -- I am sure that

18 Ms McMurrey is correct, but just for the record, I

19 believe that it should be reflected what video this is,

20 so it can be admitted into evidence. When I talked with

21 Ms McMurrey earlier this morning, and I have not seen

22 the video, she said she did not know. I saw that it

23 says "I46" on the video. So at least for the record --

24 which is, I believe a numbering system -- so at least

25 now for the record I would like it to reflect that the

1 video is I46.

2 MS McMURREY: I am sure what Ms McHenry says is accurate; I

3 do not know. This was made off one of the 90 tapes

4 seized from Mr Delalic. At this point I do not know

5 which one it was. I did not make the tape, so ... but

6 it is from the prosecution's tapes. I will be happy to

7 provide the exact tape some time in the future for them.

8 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: You mean you are introducing evidence

9 you have no idea about?

10 MS McMURREY: Right now I am just playing it for

11 impeachment purposes. I know it was seized from

12 Mr Delalic. The prosecutor gave it to us. We will be

13 happy to introduce it into evidence if there is no

14 objection from the prosecution.

15 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: I am only worried about your claim

16 that you do not know anything about the evidence you are

17 trying to introduce.

18 MS McMURREY: I know something about it. I know it was

19 made in August. I know it is a journalist from Sarajevo

20 who went to Celebici and is interviewing the prisoners

21 from Celebici. I can authenticate that point. As from

22 which tape it came off of, I am not clear.

23 JUDGE JAN: It is I46, as Ms McHenry says.

24 MS McMURREY: I accept that. Can we play the videotape

25 now?

1 (Videotape played).

2 Q. I will come back and freeze it and as we go, Mr Gotovac,

3 please, I would like you to identify these people and

4 tell me if you are in this video: okay? Could we stop

5 the tape for a second. I would like to go back to the

6 beginning. Could the interpretation interpret for the

7 court what the question and answer is on the videotape

8 and also, from the first part -- the first part,

9 Mr Gotovac, that is the inside of building number 22, is

10 it not?

11 A. Stravko Cecez was in number 6. This is not a tape made

12 in 22.

13 Q. This is not the inside of building number 22 with the

14 beds and the patients right in front of you? Can we put

15 the videotape back on the screen, please, so he can see

16 that? That gentleman, do you know who that is?

17 A. I don't know.

18 Q. Okay. You are saying that these are not the beds and

19 this is not the inside of building number 22, where you

20 spent a month and a half; is that correct?

21 A. This is not very clear to me.

22 Q. We are going to play it again right now and I am going

23 to ask the interpreters to please, if you can, interpret

24 what is being said in this interview, please?

25 MS McHENRY: Your Honour, I would just like to clarify for

1 what purpose is this tape being used and for what

2 purpose is it being interpreted? In particular we do

3 not object to the admission of the evidence, but I do

4 not see anything that is going to impeach, and then if

5 we are going to be asking him about what other people

6 said in an interview, when he is not the person being

7 interviewed, I fail to see how the defence counsel can

8 use it for impeachment at all.

9 MS McMURREY: I will be happy to respond. When you see the

10 tape, in a moment the tape shows the medical facility.

11 One of the doctors who is a prisoner here is telling how

12 most of these people were injured from the shelling in

13 Konjic. He says he was in here during this period of

14 time the tape was made in August. He should be able to

15 identify these people, number one, and secondly, the

16 second part of the interview is some other Serbian

17 prisoners telling about how much food they have. They

18 have so much extra food that they are giving it to some

19 of the people outside in the village.

20 It is the doctors, an interview with the doctors,

21 telling about how the people are treated and how it is

22 reacting. He said the conditions were terrible, they

23 did not have enough food, they did not have enough

24 water. He knows these people in this tape, and I am

25 going to ask him are they telling the truth or not.

1 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Please, were any of those people in

2 the same facility with him at the same time?

3 MS McMURREY: Yes, your Honour, they are.

4 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: They are coming forward to testify?

5 MS McMURREY: I do not know if they are coming to forward

6 to testify.

7 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: I do not know how you will impeach

8 what he said happened to him.

9 MS McMURREY: No, your Honour, we are talking --

10 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Why do you not listen to me? I

11 listened to you. He said the food was not good enough.

12 You are now bringing a tape to show that there are

13 people who said they had surplus food and they were

14 giving it to people in the village. Is that not what

15 you have just said?

16 MS McMURREY: Your Honour, it shows --

17 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: In contradiction to what he has said?

18 MS McMURREY: Yes, that is exactly --

19 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Then these are not people who are

20 likely to have been in the same place with him at that

21 time.

22 MS McMURREY: Yes, your Honour, this is exactly the summer,

23 the period of 1992 where he says there was not enough

24 food, and the medical facilities were bad.

25 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: When he was there?

1 MS McMURREY: When he was there. This is exactly the same

2 time. This is August of 1992. It is exactly --

3 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Your reasoning might be a good one,

4 but these people should be inmates with him for you to

5 be able to impeach him.

6 MS McMURREY: They are inmates with him.

7 JUDGE JAN: That is what she is asking him, to identify

8 them.

9 MS McMURREY: I was going to him.

10 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: If they are inmates with him, then you

11 might be right.

12 MS McMURREY: I believe but I am not sure -- I think

13 Mr Gotovac can identify himself on this video, your

14 Honour, if you just give me an opportunity.

15 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Nobody disturbed you. You have been

16 through it once.

17 MS McMURREY: Yes, but now we need to hear the

18 interpretation of what's being said and give him an

19 opportunity to identify the people he recognises on the

20 video.

21 JUDGE JAN: Including himself.

22 MS McMURREY: Including himself.

23 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Let him identify himself.

24 MS McMURREY: I would love to. Thank you.

25 Okay. Mr Gotovac, this gentleman that you see

1 right in front of you, who is that?

2 JUDGE JAN: He says he does not know. The picture is not

3 clear. Move to the next frame.

4 A. I don't know him.

5 MS McMURREY: Let us go ahead and play the whole tape

6 through right now and let the interpreters interpret

7 what the prisoners are saying. Then I will have him

8 identify each one, if you do not mind. I think that is

9 the easiest way.

10 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: There are so many questions. Who is

11 interviewing them; what is happening; if he was also

12 there. These are the things.

13 MS McMURREY: I believe it will show he was also there,

14 your Honour. Let us hear the whole thing first and then

15 I will take it apart. Okay. Thank you.

16 May we have the interpretation of what is being

17 said?

18 THE INTERPRETER: It is a visit by the International Red

19 Cross about the conditions and the rights of the

20 prisoners and the visits of their next of kin.

21 Their food is better even than what our fighters

22 have. I had a restaurant in Bradina. I am a war

23 prisoner here.

24 How are they treating you?

25 Fairly correctly. The food is good, three times a

1 day.

2 Cecez Stravko from Donje Selo. I came on May 20

3 ... As he said, they have given us food three times a

4 day. It is not so bad. The extra food we give to the

5 elderly, because they can eat more. There is order and

6 peace in here.

7 We are in the compound in the Celebici prison and

8 this is Petko Grubac in the infirmary.

9 In the beginning we were the prisoners and we

10 worked here as doctors. Now we have been released and

11 now we come here and work during the day.

12 How were the prisoners injured?

13 Practically they are in relatively good shape.

14 Practically that means that it is satisfactory. They

15 were injured during the combat operations and in the

16 sports hall in Konjic. We have six of them there. Two

17 are pretty good. The other three are much better

18 than... We have brought them here to be treated and I

19 think that within a week or two they will be all right."

20 Q. Okay. Thank you.

21 THE INTERPRETER: Sorry. This is not a complete

22 interpretation. It is very hard to hear portions of

23 it. Sorry.

24 MS McMURREY: I apologise to the interpretation department

25 for not getting this to you ahead of time. It is my

1 fault and I accept full responsibility but thank you for

2 trying so hard to interpret that.

3 I believe that the court could kind of understand

4 what was being said, and if you do not mind, I will

5 question Mr Gotovac from what we have just seen.

6 I also want to ask Mr Gotovac: do you need

7 glasses to be able to see the screen or can you see it?

8 Okay. I do not know if you saw it the first two times

9 it has been played, but -- can we have the videotape

10 back up, just a couple of frames at a time, if that is

11 possible?

12 A. I was able to recognise Ratko Cecez, but what he is

13 saying is not correct. It was under duress. He is

14 saying that there was so much food almost to be thrown

15 away. That was not true.

16 Q. Mr Gotovac, I would like to ask you some questions and

17 then I would like for you to answer me, if that would be

18 possible. First of all: you were present when this tape

19 was made, were you not?

20 A. I don't remember.

21 Q. In fact, the journalist that is speaking in here is a

22 woman named Jodranka Milosevic, who was a Serbian

23 journalist from Sarajevo; is that not correct?

24 A. I did not see her there and I don't know her.

25 Q. So are you stating to this court that you are not on

1 this videotape?

2 MS McHENRY: Your Honour, he has already said that he does

3 not know. Certainly I saw it and I could not tell.

4 JUDGE JAN: He has not said he does not know. Just one

5 frame was shown to him and he said the picture is not

6 clear. He has not said yet: "I am not among them".

7 MS McHENRY: I thought he said: "I did not remember that I

8 was here."

9 JUDGE JAN: He can see himself.

10 A. I don't remember.

11 MS McMURREY: Could we take the next couple of frames on

12 this? He said he did not identify this gentleman but

13 can we take the next one? Do you know this gentleman?

14 A. No.

15 Q. You do not know him? Okay. Can we move to the next

16 one, please? Now, Mr Gotovac, who is that?

17 A. I don't know.

18 Q. You do not know that gentleman either? Okay. Can we go

19 to the next one, please? Do you know this gentleman?

20 Mr Gotovac, do you need to put your glasses on to see

21 the screen?

22 A. No.

23 Q. Okay. Can we take the next one, please? Now see the

24 gentleman over there on the last bed, do you know who

25 that man is?

1 A. The white shirt?

2 Q. Yes.

3 A. I don't know. I just can't make him out.

4 Q. Mr Gotovac, could you please leave your glasses on,

5 because this is a continuing questioning from the video,

6 and I need for you to be able to see.

7 Now can we go to the next people in number 22? Do

8 you see this person who looks like he is fairly ill and

9 he cannot sit up? Do you know who that is?

10 A. I can see the image, but I can't make out who it is.

11 Q. Okay. Can we go on to the next few frames then please?

12 Do you know who this is?

13 A. I don't know. I don't know that anyone was sitting in a

14 bed in the undershirt, because we weren't able to

15 undress like that.

16 Q. So you are saying you do not know who this man is; is

17 that correct?

18 A. No. See, this one took his shirt off. We could not do

19 that. I can't accept that.

20 Q. I am not asking about his clothing. I am asking: do you

21 identify the man? Do you know who he is?

22 A. I don't know. As I said, this gentleman took off his

23 shirt, and we were not allowed that, so I don't know who

24 that is.

25 Q. Okay. Can we go to the next ones then, please? Now,

1 Mr Gotovac, do you know who this person is?

2 A. I did not see that man there.

3 Q. Okay. Can we go to the next portion of the video,

4 please? Those are the medical supplies that were held

5 in 22, were they not?

6 A. There was a door -- there was a table next to the door,

7 but I can't see the door from here.

8 Q. Yes, but the table contained medical supplies, did it

9 not?

10 A. Yes. I see things on the table, but there is no-one

11 around the table, nobody that I know.

12 Q. Okay. Well, let us go on to the rest of the video. Who

13 is this person right here? You can identify him, can

14 you not?

15 A. He looks like Relja, but I don't know if it's Relja.

16 Q. Relja was one of the doctors that was treating you there

17 for a month and a half?

18 A. It's a doctor. Yes, but he looks a bit different here.

19 It looks like Relja, but I am still not sure.

20 Q. Okay. Can we go on a little further, please? The

21 doctor -- I mean, the person standing next to him, that

22 is another doctor from the facility, is it not?

23 A. Petko Grubac.

24 Q. Petko Grubac treated you, did he not?

25 A. Yes.

1 Q. Can we move a little further on the video, please? Let

2 me stop. You have seen this woman before, have you not?

3 JUDGE JAN: There is no woman there. There is no woman on

4 the TV.

5 MS McMURREY: The interviewer right on the left-hand side

6 of the screen.

7 MS McMURREY: You have never seen Jodranka Milosevic

8 before?

9 A. I have never seen her.

10 Q. You have never seen her?

11 A. No, never.

12 Q. Let us move on a little bit further on the videotape.

13 You have identified this man as Petko Grubac?

14 A. Petko Grubac, but he was not this fat. He was much

15 thinner. He has -- this is very large. He was a short

16 man, and he looks bigger here, but yes, this is Petko

17 Grubac. I recognise him now by his hair but I don't

18 know the journalist. I never saw her.

19 Q. Havala. Can we move to the next part of the screen,

20 please?

21 A. You're welcome.

22 Q. Okay. Now you know who this man is, do you not?

23 A. Radko Cecez, but he spoke very incorrectly.

24 Q. And he was a prisoner along with you when you were in

25 hangar number 6, was he not?

1 A. Yes. He is the one who was distributing the slices of

2 bread, and he had an assistant. I don't know who that

3 was, but this man is not alive. He died.

4 Q. But he looks pretty healthy in August of 1992, does he

5 not?

6 A. I don't know what the state of his health was there.

7 Q. Okay. Let us move on in the video, please. Okay. Who

8 is this gentleman right here?

9 A. I don't know him.

10 Q. You do not know this man at all?

11 A. No, I don't. It doesn't look like anybody I know.

12 Q. So you do not know a man named Djordjo Morcajic, do you?

13 A. I heard of him but he's a younger man, so I never had

14 any contacts with him.

15 Q. But he was also --

16 A. No.

17 Q. He was also a prisoner in hangar number 6 at the same

18 time you were, was he not?

19 A. No, he was not there with us. I never saw him in any of

20 the beds.

21 Q. I am sorry. He was in hangar number 6 with you, was he

22 not, not in number 22?

23 A. Then it was your mistake, not mine. Number 6, but again

24 a younger man, so I wouldn't have known him. Maybe he

25 was from Bradina, but I didn't know many of those people

1 up there. Some of the older ones, yes, but not the

2 younger ones.

3 Q. Now, Mr Gotovac, you know you are under oath right now.

4 Are you telling the court you have never seen this man

5 before in hangar number 6?

6 MS McHENRY: Your Honour, I am going to object. He has

7 already said he does not know -- there were younger men

8 in hangar number 6 and he does not know who all of them

9 are. I must object to this -- what I can only call

10 badgering of this witness.

11 MS McMURREY: Your Honour, I asked him if he knew him but

12 he said he did not know him. I am asking him if he has

13 seen him. He does not have to know him. I want him to

14 tell this court he has never seen him in hangar number

15 6; is that correct?

16 A. It is possible that he was in number 6 or maybe even in

17 Number 9, but there were a lot of people there. There

18 was a mass of people. Sometimes I would not even see my

19 own neighbour well. We weren't allowed to look around.

20 We had to look in front of ourselves, and there was not

21 enough light.

22 Q. Okay. Could we move on to the next frame, please?

23 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: I think there should be an end to this

24 television trial.

25 MS McMURREY: Yes, your Honour.

1 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Let us know exactly what you are

2 asking. We cannot go like this endless.

3 MS McMURREY: I want to go back to building number 22 where

4 he is in the photograph and I want him to identify

5 himself. It is coming up to --

6 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Is that still on this same tape?

7 MS McMURREY: Yes, your Honour, I believe. Is it not?

8 Yes.

9 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: If that is exhausted, then I do not

10 think we should go further, but you started with an

11 impeachment. Except you are still continuing on the

12 impeachment ... In formulating the impeachment, let us

13 know where we are.

14 MS McMURREY: Are you asking me?

15 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: I am asking you what you want to

16 impeach so we know the extent of your

17 cross-examination. You cannot be going this wild not

18 knowing exactly what you are doing.

19 MS McMURREY: I know what I am doing, your Honour.

20 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Well, I do not know.

21 MS McMURREY: I would be happy to explain it, if you would

22 let me. He has said he was in building number 22 from

23 the 1st July until August 30th. So far he has not

24 identified anybody else that was in there during that

25 time. Now there is going to be a photograph of him in

1 that building, and if he was in that building and he

2 cannot identify those people, then he must be not

3 telling the truth, if he was there for a month and a

4 half. He has also stated that they did not have food,

5 they did not have medical facilities, and this videotape

6 is showing he is not telling the truth about that also.

7 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: You mean because someone else in a

8 video facility said something, he must be lying.

9 MS McMURREY: Well, I think that it is impeachment. If he

10 was there for a month and a half in that building and he

11 does not know the other people around him, then it shows

12 that maybe he is not telling the whole truth here.

13 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Obviously they are only all the people

14 around him.

15 MS McMURREY: Yes, your Honour.

16 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: These are the only people around him.

17 There are no others.

18 JUDGE JAN: Show him his own frame.

19 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Let him see himself. When we find

20 him, we will know where we are going.

21 MS McMURREY: Okay. Can we have the next part of the

22 video, please?

23 JUDGE JAN: Focus on the picture where he is.

24 MS McMURREY: You are claiming, Mr Gotovac, that you do not

25 know this --

1 A. I recognise both doctors, and there was also a male

2 nurse there, Brane Gligorevic, and I never saw him.

3 There was Kuljanin next to me. I never saw him. What

4 Radko said about the food, I am not also saying there

5 was no food. There was some food but there was not that

6 much food.

7 Q. Okay. I would like to go ahead and run this. When he

8 sees himself -- I was just informed that he was on the

9 first part of the videotape and he did not identify

10 himself. I believe that is when he did not have his

11 glasses on.

12 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: If anyone else can identify him, they

13 will point it out to him.

14 JUDGE JAN: Show him the frame.

15 MS McMURREY: This is not you. Let us move on and see the

16 rest of this video. Is that him?

17 MS McMURREY: Well, you know, it is five years ago.

18 MS McHENRY: Your Honour, I must object. This is a very

19 bad quality photograph. No-one, including counsel, is

20 able to recognise anyone. He has already said he cannot

21 recognise anyone. To continue to show him this same

22 thing over and over again, I do not see the point.

23 MS McMURREY: He is on this videotape. I have been

24 informed by everybody here he is on this tape, if we can

25 just continue. Please, we have just five more seconds.

1 For the judicial economy of not having to recall him,

2 can I just please complete this?

3 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Let us not use your extra vigours to

4 include judicial economy.

5 A. Can I explain about the glasses, please? My glasses

6 were broken in the prison, and so this is a very

7 different pair of glasses. I had 3.5 on one eye and 4

8 on the other, and what I have here is something

9 completely different. It is 3. So the glasses that I

10 have here are not the right ones. All this is not clear

11 enough to me. I recognise the two doctors. The male

12 nurse, he used to be next to the table, but I could not

13 see him in these pictures at all, not once. I am not

14 saying that this is not number 22.

15 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Are any of your defendants able to

16 recognise him in the video? If they do, they should

17 point him out.

18 JUDGE JAN: Which one is him.

19 MS McMURREY: I do not think we have come to that. I want

20 to ask him that. Mr Delic and Mr Delalic can identify

21 him on the video. I would also like to add if he cannot

22 see because his glasses were broken in 1992 --

23 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Let someone else identify him in the

24 video, and they will point that one out to him: "This is

25 you."

1 MS McMURREY: Anybody back here, when you see Mr Gotovac,

2 would you just please holler: "Halt"? Would that

3 work? Okay.

4 Can you play the rest of the video, please?

5 MR DELIC: Stop.

6 MS McMURREY: This man, who is this man, Mr Gotovac?

7 A. It looks like me, but it has something white on the

8 forehead. I never had, but Nedjo Kuljanin should be

9 next to me but I can't make him out, but it should be

10 Nedjo Kuljanin because we lay next to one another,

11 because he was helping me for eight days. I couldn't go

12 out on my own. I saw that Nedjo Kuljanin was on the

13 right and I was on the left.

14 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: We need not pursue this.

15 MS McMURREY: Mr Gotovac, you do recognise yourself in the

16 video, though, do you not?

17 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: He did not say it was him.

18 A. I did recognise, but barely, and I know how I recognised

19 myself, because of Nedjo, because he was next to me.

20 MS McHENRY: Can I just let the record reflect that it was

21 Mr Delic that recognised Mr Gotovac.

22 MS McMURREY: And also Mr Gotovac recognised himself. My

23 next question, Mr Gotovac: you were there in this

24 facility obviously during that time from 1st July until

25 the end of August, and you do not know these other

1 people? You cannot recognise these other people around

2 you? Is that what you are telling us?

3 A. I could not recognise this Djare. Petko and Relja, the

4 doctors, I did recognise.

5 Q. And the other patients around you in number 22, did you

6 not recognise them?

7 MS McHENRY: Objection. Asked and answered several times.

8 JUDGE ODIO BENITO: Yes. I sustain the objection.

9 MS McMURREY: I am going to go on to another area, but the

10 people that talked on this videotape, that spoke: are

11 you telling me that they are telling an untruth about

12 the conditions at Celebici?

13 MS McHENRY: Objection. Asked and answered.

14 JUDGE JAN: He said that.

15 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: He said that several times.

16 MS McMURREY: Okay. All right. I am going to go back to

17 hangar number 6. When you were in hangar number 6 how

18 many guards were guarding you at one time?

19 A. I don't know. We had to sit down and look in front of

20 us. When the door opened, we only had to look in front,

21 and at night you could not see, and I never counted

22 them.

23 Q. Okay. Now you have gone into great detail earlier about

24 someone named Esad Landzo, also known as Zenga; is that

25 true?

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. And you described him as "not abnormal", did you not?

3 A. Well, his behaviour was normal.

4 Q. Okay. Thank you very much. Now, you also said --

5 A. Because he was aware of everything he was doing. He was

6 not unaware.

7 Q. Okay. You also said that there was an Arab or a black

8 film crew that came to Celebici; is that true?

9 A. I said that last night.

10 Q. Yes.

11 A. I explained that, that I could not speak, that my throat

12 hurt, and things like that.

13 Q. Yes, and you also said that your two sons and a Spasoje

14 Mil -- I am sorry. I cannot remember the other person

15 that was with you -- Spasoje Miljevic was with you at

16 that time; is that correct?

17 A. Yes. When they left, the camera crew, when they left,

18 then Landzo Esad took me out. His nickname is Zenga,

19 and he took out my two sons and Spasoje Miljevic, and,

20 as I explained yesterday -- I do not know why I have to

21 repeat that -- he put the gasmask on my older son and

22 Spasoje Miljevic but not on my younger son and he asked

23 me what I said and then he beat me.

24 He asked them what they said and then he beat

25 them. Since my older son started to mumble because he

1 had enough of the gasmask, he took it off and beat him

2 about the face, and he forced him to go inside the

3 hangar. Then he took off Spasoje's mask and forced him

4 back into the hangar and started to cut my younger son

5 with a knife and forced him back into the hangar.

6 Then my Calvary began. I had to put my hands

7 behind my head and then he kicked me in the scrotum and

8 on the side in my ribs. Then I tried to protect that

9 place on my side, on my abdomen, where then I had the

10 hernia. Then when he asked me why I was holding it, and

11 I had explained that to him before, when he had taken me

12 out before, and during all this horror my tongue went

13 back inside my throat, so that I was unconscious for a

14 time. I don't know what was happening with him during

15 that time.

16 Then the male nurse, who was in the prison with

17 us, Brane Gligorevic, he came out and he had a shoehorn

18 probably in his pocket. Then he pulled my tongue out

19 using that shoehorn. I felt that he was regaining

20 consciousness, but I was urinating blood.

21 Q. Excuse me, Mr Gotovac. Now would you answer the one

22 question I asked? My question was: there was a black

23 Arab film crew that came to Celebici, was there not?

24 A. Yes. They had some instruments. I don't know who they

25 were.

1 Q. I would just like to ask you, please, if you would just

2 listen to my question and just answer the question,

3 because I will let you explain when we get to those

4 certain events; okay?

5 Now, the Arab film crew asked you a question about

6 did the Serbs not kill the Muslims; is that correct?

7 A. Yes, they asked me whether they did, and I said: "I

8 don't know." My answer was: "I don't know."

9 Q. And did you recognise the language that they were

10 speaking?

11 A. No.

12 Q. But you claimed they were black; is that correct?

13 A. There were some people there who were black. I was

14 shaking. I was very afraid. I didn't even dare to look

15 at them properly. I was really, really scared. I

16 didn't know what was happening to me.

17 Q. After the film crew left, that is when you claim that

18 Mr Landzo beat you. Is that what you are claiming?

19 A. Yes. He beat me then, and he tortured me very badly,

20 and Hazim Delic came and Brane asked -- actually he

21 asked Brane: "Where does this blood come from?" Brane

22 explained they broke my tooth when they were trying to

23 pull out my tongue, but the real problem was I was

24 urinating blood. I still have real problems with my

25 prostrate gland. Shall I continue?

1 Q. No. I would just like you to answer my question,

2 please. We have an agreement, do we not?

3 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: This is cross-examination, you know.

4 MS McMURREY: I would like to have a little bit of control

5 over it myself.

6 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: That is the problem.

7 MS McMURREY: Yes, I know. Now you claimed that Mr Landzo

8 jumped on you in a kind of Ninja-type jump; is that

9 correct?

10 A. He went behind my back. I sat down on the concrete.

11 First, he kicked me in the scrotum. Then he went behind

12 my back and he jumped and kicked me with his knees and

13 with his army boot, so that my shoulder is as a result

14 deformed, and it aches all the time.

15 Q. Now your claim also is that both of your sons and

16 Spasoje Milanjevic witnessed this. Is that your claim?

17 A. "Miljevic" is the name.

18 Q. Yes, and they all three saw this happen; is that right?

19 A. No. Spasoje could not see and my younger son could not

20 see, because they had been forced inside, and my older

21 son appeared with Brane to save me from suffocating.

22 Then Delic told them to put me inside his Fica car.

23 They didn't dare to --

24 Q. I will get to that, if you just give me a chance. I

25 would like to ask questions as we go along. You also

1 claim that Mr Landzo has studied karate; is that

2 correct?

3 A. That is what I heard from his peers in the prison, but I

4 don't know that, from men his age in the prison.

5 Q. So you would not know if his brother was the one who

6 actually studied karate, would you?

7 A. I don't know.

8 Q. In fact, you would not know that his brother Nejad looks

9 like Mr Landzo, would you?

10 A. No. I don't know.

11 Q. You wouldn't know that his brother Nejad is also known

12 as "Zenga" either, would you?

13 A. I heard that Esad was nicknamed Zenga, and I know him

14 very well, because he caused me a lot of harm, and he

15 injured my human dignity, and he told me that I would be

16 dead in eight days.

17 Q. So after you claim that you were beaten by Mr Landzo,

18 you had some kind of attack, did you not, where your

19 tongue went back in your throat; is that correct?

20 A. I explained that already.

21 Q. This attack, was it diagnosed by the male nurse as a

22 heart attack, as a seizure? Was it diagnosed as

23 something?

24 A. No, it wasn't.

25 Q. You were taken immediately to the medical facility, were

1 you not?

2 A. Yes. He took me there, but it wasn't an infirmary. It

3 was the fire-fighting storage place.

4 Q. You were taken to number 22?

5 A. 22.

6 Q. And, in fact, you walked to the car, did you not?

7 A. I crawled. I couldn't walk. I crawled.

8 Q. You were not carried on a stretcher, were you?

9 MS McHENRY: Objection. Asked and answered.

10 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: He said he crawled.

11 A. The car was close by and I was able to crawl there, and

12 he opened the door and told me to crawl in, and that is

13 what I did.

14 MS McMURREY: When you got to building number 22, which

15 doctor of those two that you identified examined you?

16 A. He called Relja and he said: "Relja, tell me, will this

17 guy croak?", and Relja took me in.

18 Q. Did Relja give you any diagnosis about whether -- excuse

19 me; I have not finished the question -- about whether

20 you had some kind of stroke, or heart attack, or

21 seizure?

22 A. No, he didn't say anything.

23 Q. I want to go back just a little bit to when the male

24 nurse came out --

25 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: I think the Trial Chamber will now

1 rise. We will come back at 11.30.

2 (11.10 am)

3 (Short break)

4 (11.35 am)

5 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Kindly invite the witness.

6 (Witness returned to court)

7 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Will you kindly remind him he is still

8 on his oath?

9 THE REGISTRAR: I am reminding you that you are still under

10 oath, sir.

11 A. Yes.

12 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Ms McMurrey, do you mind if I just

13 take a second of your time?

14 MS McMURREY: Of course not, your Honour.

15 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: And ask a simple question which has

16 been worrying me. Does the witness know whether any

17 guards stayed with them inside the hangar, whether they

18 had guards staying with them apart from those outside?

19 JUDGE JAN: Was any guard inside the hangar also all the

20 time?

21 A. Yes, sometimes they would be there, but for the most

22 part they were outside behind the door. That is

23 outside.

24 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: That is enough.

25 MS McMURREY: Thank you. May I proceed?

1 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Yes, you can.

2 MS McMURREY: Thank you very much.

3 Mr Gotovac, I think we had just talked about the

4 black film crew and what was happening to you

5 afterwards, and you had just testified that you had had

6 some kind of seizure or something where your tongue had

7 gone back, and then there was a male nurse who was also

8 a prisoner, was there not?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. And that male nurse you said came out of hangar number 6

11 to attend to you; is that correct?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. When you were taken into Celebici, and all of the

14 prisoners, all of your personal belongings were seized,

15 were they not?

16 A. I didn't have anything on me at the time.

17 Q. But none of the other prisoners with you were allowed to

18 keep any of their belongings, were they?

19 A. No, they were not.

20 Q. So you claim that this prisoner ran out of hangar number

21 6 to attend to you and used a shoehorn to extract your

22 tongue; is that your testimony?

23 A. It was a shoehorn which you used to help put on your

24 shoes.

25 Q. Yes. Thank you. Now, you would not be surprised that

1 no other witnesses can recount your beating, would you?

2 MS McHENRY: Your Honour, I believe this kind of

3 questioning is objectionable.

4 JUDGE JAN: How would he know?

5 MS McMURREY: I had asked him if he would be surprised.

6 That is his own perception.

7 MS McHENRY: Entirely irrelevant.

8 JUDGE JAN: Relevant all right, but how would he know?

9 MS McMURREY: Okay. Mr Gotovac, you claim at least one of

10 your sons was present at the time you were suffering

11 this seizure; is that correct?

12 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Did he say he was suffering any

13 seizure?

14 A. Yes, the elder one.

15 MS McMURREY: I am trying to find out --

16 A. I did not understand the question.

17 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: I do not like you introducing things

18 that are new. He did not say he suffered a seizure.

19 MS McMURREY: Whatever the condition is where his tongue

20 goes down his throat, whatever that condition is, when

21 you were suffering that, your eldest son was present; is

22 that your testimony?

23 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Let us know what you are asking him.

24 A. I don't know. Somebody from the door must have called

25 the nurse or something.

1 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Let us have your question properly.

2 MS McMURREY: Was your son present when you had your tongue

3 go down your throat outside hangar number 6?

4 A. He was. He was standing when Delic said to take me to

5 his Fica car. Neither Brane nor my son dared go there,

6 so I crawled there because the car was very close. Then

7 he told me to crawl in and I did, but I said that

8 several times.

9 Q. Is your son coming to testify?

10 MS McHENRY: Objection, your Honour.

11 MS McMURREY: Under what grounds?

12 MS McHENRY: This witness does not know about other

13 witnesses who may or may not be coming to testify, and,

14 two, it is entirely irrelevant to his testimony.

15 MS McMURREY: Your Honour, I believe it is a completely

16 proper question, and I would like to have him answer it

17 if his son is going to come testify about what happened

18 to him.

19 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Do you know whether your son is coming

20 to testify?

21 A. No, he is not.

22 MS McMURREY: Which brings me to another line of

23 questioning. Yesterday every time Ms McHenry would ask

24 you a question about your seeing injuries on someone

25 else, you testified that they would be the best person

1 to answer that question, because they are coming to

2 testify. Did you not say that yesterday?

3 A. It's not what I said. They are scattered around the

4 world and I don't know where everybody is.

5 Q. But she asked you specifically -- one I remember is

6 Nedeljko Draganic. She said: "You saw his injuries,

7 did you not?" You said: "He would be the best one and

8 he is coming to testify." Is that not what you said?

9 A. Nedeljko Draganic is here. He is in the witness room

10 and he is waiting. I don't know when his turn is going

11 to be but he is here and he is waiting.

12 MS McHENRY: Can I caution, please, with respect to some

13 witnesses that are going to be protected, that she not

14 ask this witness about them.

15 MS McMURREY: Okay. I was not aware that that one was

16 protected. That is the only name.

17 MS McHENRY: That one is not, but with respect to some

18 others they may be.

19 MS McMURREY: With my difficulty with the names I could not

20 remember anyway except that one.

21 You know these other people you testified about

22 yesterday are coming to testify because they are here

23 with you. Is that what you are testifying to?

24 A. Yes. Nedeljko is here at the movement. He is back in

25 the witness room. I don't know when his turn is going

1 to be.

2 Q. You have always talked about while you were allegedly in

3 your encounter with Mr Landzo that something snapped in

4 your stomach. Is that what you testified to?

5 A. Inside it snapped. I think that it was this -- it is

6 something under the skin and it is like a membrane, and

7 so the intestines are coming out. So I have to undergo

8 surgery for it.

9 Q. Now, you were released from Celebici on August 30th,

10 1992, is that correct?

11 A. Correct.

12 Q. And you claim that you have been suffering from great

13 pain from this hernia; is that what you claim?

14 A. Yes, it is true that I had pains and I have them today

15 as well.

16 Q. In fact, you were released on August 30th, 1992, and you

17 did not see a doctor until May of 1995, did you?

18 A. Shortly before, about ten, fifteen days, I was seen by

19 doctors, but it was in August.

20 Q. August of 1995?

21 A. Of 1992.

22 Q. You must be referring to the doctors at Celebici; is

23 that correct?

24 A. Yes, in Celebici, yes.

25 Q. So since you were released, you did not see anyone until

1 May of 1995, did you?

2 A. I did not complain to the doctors any more. I just

3 carried it. Only on one occasion I had a referral, and

4 I went to Trebinje, but they did not perform surgery.

5 They said that first I had to be verified as an invalid.

6 Q. In fact, yesterday, even though you claim you saw a

7 doctor in 1995, yesterday in your testimony your exact

8 quote was:

9 "My stomach is protruding every year more and

10 more. I wish that I could have it checked by somebody."

11 That is what you said yesterday, is it not?

12 A. I said and last night in the witness room they took

13 pictures of my shoulder and my stomach and my hand, and

14 so those people who took those pictures, they may be

15 able to testify to that.

16 Q. But you were a 60-year-old man in 1992, were you not?

17 A. 60, 61, somewhere around there.

18 Q. Other than your testimony, we have no proof whether you

19 suffered from that hernia before you went to Celebici or

20 not, do we?

21 JUDGE JAN: He has not used the word "hernia", has he?

22 MS McMURREY: No, he does not.

23 JUDGE JAN: Then why introduce a word which he probably

24 does not understand?

25 MS McMURREY: Thank you. Mr Gotovac, do you claim to this

1 court that you are suffering from a hernia, and I do not

2 know if that is something that interprets into Bosnian

3 or not. Do you understand that term?

4 A. I don't understand these conditions. I think that I

5 would need a longer explanation to understand what they

6 are.

7 Q. Are you claiming that one of your injuries from Celebici

8 was a tear in some of your intestines or your stomach

9 lining that causes -- can somebody help? -- I don't know

10 how to explain.

11 JUDGE JAN: I am not a doctor.

12 MS McMURREY: That causes an enlargement of that tissue in

13 that area? Is that what your claim is?

14 A. Not in the intestines. It is the lining. So the

15 intestines moved to behind the skin.

16 Q. Okay, but it is some kind of tear in your stomach; is

17 that what you are claiming?

18 A. Correct.

19 Q. Other than your testimony that something snapped at that

20 time, we have no proof whether you were suffering from

21 that before July of 1992 or not, do we?

22 A. No. I was very healthy, healthy as steel.

23 Q. But the only proof we have of that is what you tell us.

24 You do not have any medical records from before that, do

25 you?

1 MS McHENRY: Your Honour, I must object. I do not object

2 if she asks has he any medical records, but in terms of

3 proof, for instance, there will be other proof, for

4 instance, from the Serbian doctors who saw him. I do

5 not believe her characterisation or the witness'

6 characterisation of what proof there is is proper for

7 this court. If she wants to ask him if he has medical

8 records he can provide, I do not object to that.

9 MS McMURREY: May I respond, your Honour?

10 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Well, you have got him to answer that

11 he was very healthy before that beating.

12 JUDGE JAN: Like steel.

13 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: If you want to respond, you can do so.

14 MS McMURREY: Just for clarification, any doctor that he

15 has seen after the fact can testify that maybe there is

16 the existence of this condition or not, but since we

17 have no records from before that, there is no-one saying

18 that the condition did not exist before July of 1992.

19 That is the only thing I was trying to show the court.

20 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Well, he has told you what he was

21 before then.

22 MS McMURREY: Right. You were a 61-year-old man of steel;

23 is that correct.

24 JUDGE JAN: 60, 61.

25 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Yes. At that time he was as strong as

1 steel?

2 A. I was 60, 61, something like that. Now I am 66.

3 MS McMURREY: You were retired in 19 -- in 1992, were you

4 not?

5 A. I retired in 1990.

6 Q. Yes. So in 1992 you were already a retired individual,

7 were you not?

8 MS McHENRY: Objection. Asked and answered.

9 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Yes. He has answered that question

10 several times.

11 MS McMURREY: Okay. So were you retired as an invalid in

12 1990?

13 A. No.

14 Q. So you had not suffered any injuries on the job?

15 A. Just I went prematurely into retirement and I had never

16 gone to the doctor's while I worked.

17 Q. Now I want to also -- we will request -- can we address

18 this matter right now? We have no really concrete

19 medical examination of Mr Gotovac, and Ms McHenry and I

20 spoke earlier about asking the court for an independent

21 doctor to examine him. We are both in agreement on

22 this.

23 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Frankly I do not know the type of

24 counsel you are. You are cross-examining. It is not

25 your case.

1 MS McMURREY: No, but I --

2 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Go ahead with your cross-examination

3 and finish with it.

4 MS McMURREY: I will finish and then we will address this

5 matter? I just thought while we were talking about his

6 injuries ...

7 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: When you deal with your ... I do not

8 know.

9 MS McMURREY: Mr Gotovac, you also claim you have injury on

10 the palm of your hand; is that correct?

11 A. Yes, from the cigarette.

12 Q. And you do know that Mr Landzo does not smoke

13 cigarettes, do you not?

14 A. He had a cigarette in his hand at the time. I don't

15 know if he's a smoker or not.

16 Q. So he must have taken that cigarette from another guard;

17 is that correct?

18 MS McHENRY: Objection.

19 JUDGE JAN: How would he know?

20 MS McMURREY: You claim he put the cigarette out on your

21 hand; is that correct?

22 A. Yes, I stand by it.

23 Q. Okay. You claim that that injury from putting a

24 cigarette out on your hand has caused deformation of

25 some tendons in your hand; is that your testimony?

1 A. The doctors told me that some tendon gave way, that two

2 -- and two of my fingers are still not bending

3 properly.

4 Q. Okay. Thank you. You have some kind of medical proof

5 that that injury on your hand is a burn, do you not?

6 A. Here I gave it to the prosecution. There is something

7 there.

8 Q. There is no evidence that that injury is a burn, is

9 there?

10 A. At that time I didn't have a picture taken of it, only a

11 doctor looked at it and I orally confirmed it, and there

12 were three doctors who signed it.

13 Q. And the doctors you are talking about were the Serbian

14 doctors provided by the people from Belgrade, were they

15 not?

16 A. No. That was in Visegrad. I went to the doctor there.

17 Q. They were the Serbian doctors, were they not?

18 A. For one female doctor, I know that she was Serbian, and

19 I never asked the other two doctors what they were.

20 Q. Are they Muslims?

21 A. I don't know.

22 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: I thought medical practice is a matter

23 of professional ethics, is it not?

24 MS McMURREY: They are supposed to be. I am hoping those

25 doctors will be here in order to testify.

1 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: What are you talking about their

2 nationalities and religion and the like. I thought it

3 was a professional thing.

4 MS McMURREY: Yes, your Honour.

5 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: I do not know what that has to do with

6 their professional expertise.

7 MS McMURREY: I think you are generalising because these

8 refer to detention camps, and they are not unprejudiced,

9 unbiased reports by any means. When the doctors come to

10 testify, we will be able to show that to you then.

11 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Try and remove some of these clouds in

12 your mind. You will see better.

13 MS McMURREY: I am sorry?

14 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: If you try and remove some of these

15 clouds, you will see better.

16 MS McMURREY: After the fourth witness -- I hope by the

17 time this is over with, we are able to remove a lot of

18 clouds, but it is kind of hard digging through all this

19 at the first and we are doing the best we can.

20 Now, I want to go to some claims that you made

21 yesterday. You know for a fact that Mr Landzo did not

22 kill Cedo Avramovic, do you not?

23 A. I don't know.

24 Q. In fact, you --

25 A. Because he was between the two rows at dawn, and he was

1 stripped to the waist and he died there. I don't know

2 what happened. So when I don't know, I cannot say

3 anything.

4 Q. So you are claiming you did not know that Mr Avramovic

5 died of natural causes. Is that what you are telling

6 this court today?

7 A. I don't know what were the causes of his death, but we

8 saw him dead.

9 Q. So you do not have any knowledge that Mr Landzo had

10 anything to do with this death, do you?

11 MS McHENRY: Objection. Asked and answered.

12 JUDGE JAN: He has already said he does not know how he

13 died. Why do you want to press it?

14 MS McMURREY: Okay. I am just trying to get him to say

15 Mr Landzo did not have anything to do with it.

16 JUDGE JAN: He does not know.

17 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Put the question to him.

18 MS McMURREY: Mr Gotovac, you do not know whether Mr Landzo

19 had anything to do --

20 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: That is not the question.

21 MS McMURREY: I do not remember --

22 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: That is not the question. Ask him a

23 question.

24 MS McMURREY: So you do not have any knowledge whether

25 Mr Landzo had anything to do with the death of Cedo

1 Avramovic, do you?

2 A. Cedo Avramovic. You were mentioning Cedo Avramovic but

3 his name is Cedo Avramovic. In the morning we found him

4 in between rows half naked and dead. I don't know what

5 happened to him. Who does?

6 Q. Okay. Thank you. You also talked about the death of

7 Scepo Gotovac, did you not?

8 A. I talked about that yesterday. There is no need to

9 repeat that today.

10 Q. Is he a relative of yours, Mr Gotovac?

11 A. No, no kin. We just have the same last name. That is

12 all.

13 Q. Okay. Now you testified that he was taken out and he

14 was beaten, but you do not know who beat him, do you,

15 because he was outside the hangar, was he not?

16 A. It was outside of the hangar, but I know Zenga by voice,

17 and he said: "Oh, mother", and he told him: "What

18 mother? Do you have a mother?"

19 Q. Yes, but just because you heard his voice outside, it

20 does not mean that he may have beat him. It could have

21 been someone else; is that correct?

22 A. The door was closed.

23 Q. Yes.

24 A. It could have been anything, but I saw him when two of

25 them brought him in. He was like dead. He was uttering

1 no voice and Zenga was bringing -- leading him in, and

2 then kicked him a couple of times, and then he lay down

3 on concrete and soon thereafter he was dead, and I

4 repeated it several times. It makes no sense to repeat

5 it so many times.

6 Q. Mr Gotovac, it was night-time. There is no electricity

7 in hangar number 6. There is no light source

8 whatsoever, and you are telling this court you saw Zenga

9 bring him back in; is that correct?

10 A. It wasn't completely dark when you opened the door.

11 When they were dragging him in, you could see a bit.

12 Q. You mean, you could see a silhouette, but you have

13 already told this court that you do not see very well,

14 have you not?

15 A. Well, all right then. It is the years too, the age.

16 Five years ago I had better eyesight, but all right.

17 Q. You also told this court that you do not hear very well,

18 did you not?

19 MS McHENRY: Your Honour, all these questions have been

20 asked and answered numerous times. I have no objection

21 to defence counsel doing fair cross-examination, but

22 what they are putting these witnesses through in total I

23 believe is a violation of rule 75, which says

24 questioning shall be done in a manner not to harass and

25 intimidate the witness.

1 Even one question the witness could answer and

2 say: "I already answered that", or: "I don't know",

3 but to put these witnesses through these kinds of

4 repetitive questions hour upon hour upon hour I believe

5 is entirely inappropriate and I object.

6 MS McMURREY: May I respond?

7 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Yes, you can.

8 MS McMURREY: I am asking specific questions regarding

9 Mr Landzo and what he saw and heard at the most

10 appropriate and relevant time of this proceeding in his

11 statement. I think it is totally relevant, the kind of

12 questions and the way I am asking them at this point.

13 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Thank you. I think you are wanting to

14 link every answer to Landzo.

15 MS McMURREY: I want him to not link.

16 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Let him answer.

17 MR GREAVES: Your Honour, might I just have a moment to

18 interrupt, please? I think it is unfortunate that my

19 learned friend for the prosecution has characterised all

20 defence counsel as having harassed witnesses. As far as

21 I am concerned, I do not think I harassed this witness

22 and I object to that characterisation very strongly.

23 MS McHENRY: He is correct. I apologise. I withdraw it

24 with respect to all defence counsel.

25 MR GREAVES: Thank you. That is most gracious.

1 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Ms McMurrey, if you want him to link

2 his answers to Landzo, he can say so. Ask him the

3 question.

4 MS McMURREY: Yes. In fact, after you told this court that

5 you could not hear very well, you also said that you

6 heard everything said outside of the hangar in the

7 middle of the night; is that correct?

8 MS McHENRY: Objection. He has never said that and I do

9 not believe counsel should be allowed to put words in

10 his mouth.

11 MS McMURREY: Your Honours, he can clarify it if I am

12 asking inappropriate questions. I am giving him an

13 opportunity to respond.

14 JUDGE JAN: In cross-examination you can ask leading

15 questions.

16 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: What did he say he heard?

17 MS McMURREY: He claims he heard Mr Landzo outside when --

18 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Then ask that question: did you hear

19 Mr Landzo outside? What he was doing? Ask him.

20 JUDGE JAN: You also questioned his ability to hear because

21 of his impaired hearing. That is what you were saying?

22 MS McMURREY: Yes.

23 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Ask him directly what you want him to

24 answer.

25 MS McMURREY: Mr Gotovac, you have already told us you

1 cannot hear very well, and yet you are telling this

2 court today you heard exactly what Mr Landzo said

3 outside the hangar in the middle of the night in July of

4 1992; is that what you are saying?

5 A. My hearing in the right ear is not very good, and the

6 left ear is good. In the last five, six years it's not

7 been good, but the left here is still good. If I didn't

8 hear well, I could not -- I would not be able to talk to

9 anybody, but my hearing in the right ear is not so good.

10 Q. In fact, Mr Gotovac --

11 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: He has not answered the question.

12 Answer the question.

13 A. The hearing in the right ear is not so good, but in the

14 left it's excellent. It's been five years and maybe my

15 hearing has deteriorated some, but my hearing in the

16 left ear is still good.

17 MS McMURREY: Mr Gotovac, also you were not sitting on the

18 edge or the wall or the side of hangar number 6. You

19 were sitting in the middle, were you not?

20 A. I have already said that.

21 Q. In fact, there were a lot of other prisoners around you,

22 were there not?

23 A. I said that already too.

24 Q. In fact, what you are telling this court is that you

25 really do not have any personal knowledge about what

1 happened to Scepo Gotovac, because you did not see what

2 happened outside the hanger that night, did you?

3 MS McHENRY: Your Honour, I must object. He has already

4 stated what he could see and what he could not see, and

5 what he could hear and could not hear.

6 A. It wasn't fully the night yet, and it wasn't that dark

7 when he opened the door. You could see as they were

8 coming out.

9 MS McMURREY: Yes. My question is: you do not have any

10 personal knowledge about what happened outside the

11 hangar, do you, Mr Gotovac?

12 A. I already said that in part before.

13 Q. Thank you. So you are agreeing; you have no personal

14 knowledge. Okay. Thank you. Now as far as Simo

15 Jovanovic goes, you have the same amount of knowledge

16 about him, do you not?

17 A. I don't know much knowledge. He was taken out several

18 times one evening before dusk. He was taken out and

19 brought back and when he sat down to his assigned place

20 people whispered around that he died.

21 Q. So what I am asking you to tell this court is that you

22 have no personal knowledge about what happened to this

23 man outside the hangar, do you?

24 A. Well, he had been beaten several times and then when he

25 came in, and after he had been beaten, he died.

1 Q. Mr Gotovac, you did not see the beating, and you do not

2 know who beat him or actually what happened outside the

3 hangar, do you?

4 A. Well, I could not have known because the door was

5 closed, but we could hear the screams and the way they

6 were hit.

7 Q. Thank you very much. Now about Bosko Samoukovic, you do

8 not know what happened to Bosko Samoukovic either, do

9 you?

10 A. I don't know what happened to him, but Hazim Delic

11 brought him in front of the 22 and called a doctor and

12 said: "Tell me whether he would croak", and the doctors

13 Relja and Petko -- Relja said he died, but he continued

14 on. I couldn't watch. I covered my head, and when I

15 looked the second time, I saw that the blanket was

16 thrown over him and he said: "He's dead." That is what

17 I know.

18 Q. Now, Mr Gotovac, please answer my question. You do not

19 have any personal knowledge --

20 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: I think if this is not personal

21 knowledge, I don't know what is. He saw a person dying.

22 MS McMURREY: After the fact.

23 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: After what fact?

24 MS McMURREY: He does not know what beat him or what

25 happened to him.

1 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: He said he saw a person dying and the

2 man died. There is no point going further than that.

3 MS McMURREY: Can I summarise this Bosko Samoukovic?

4 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: You do not summarise in

5 cross-examination. You summarise when you are

6 addressing.

7 MS McMURREY: I would like to ask him -- he saw Mr Bosko

8 Samoukovic die, did he not, but he does not know or have

9 any personal knowledge about the facts leading up to his

10 death, does he?

11 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: He has already said that.

12 MS McMURREY: I am creating the record here and he has to

13 answer the questions. He has not answered one of my

14 questions.

15 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: I do not like interruptions. When

16 some of the things you say I regard as complete rubbish,

17 I will say so. Definitely you have asked him. He knew

18 none of the participants that Delic brought him. Later

19 he felt the man was dying. The blanket was thrown over

20 he said. That is all he told you. So he would know

21 nothing before that.

22 MS McMURREY: Your Honour, we would be finished with this

23 cross-examination a long time ago if he would just

24 answer my question.

25 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: If you continue being irresponsible, I

1 think I will take a different attitude.

2 MS McMURREY: He still has not answered my question.

3 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: I think he has.

4 JUDGE JAN: He does not know what happened outside the

5 hanger.

6 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: He has said that.

7 MS McMURREY: Okay. Thank you very much.

8 Now about Zeljko Klimenta, that person, you have

9 no personal knowledge about what happened to him, do

10 you?

11 JUDGE JAN: Outside the hangar.

12 MS McMURREY: Pardon?

13 JUDGE JAN: Outside the hangar.

14 MS McMURREY: Outside the hangar?

15 A. Zeljko Klimenta, he stayed behind in number 6 after I

16 left, and those that came to have their dressings said

17 that he had died, but I did not see that, so I cannot

18 say anything about it.

19 Q. Havala.

20 A. I was not there in number 6 at that time.

21 Q. Havala, Mr Gotovac. Thank you very much.

22 A. You're welcome.

23 Q. You also testified yesterday about the injuries of Mirko

24 Babic, did you not?

25 A. I heard from him personally that three of his ribs were

1 broken, but he was beaten outside. I could not see

2 that. I did not see when he was maltreated. I only saw

3 on one occasion when he was brought back Esad Landzo was

4 escorting him -- his nickname is Zenga -- and he

5 continued kicking him.

6 Q. Thank you. So what you are telling this court, what you

7 know about his injuries is he claimed two or three

8 broken ribs; is that correct?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Havala.

11 A. And that is what I said yesterday, and you keep

12 repeating things.

13 Q. Thank you, Mr Gotovac.

14 A. You're welcome.

15 Q. Mr Gotovac, Esad Landzo was gone from Celebici before

16 you were released, was he not?

17 A. I saw him once in August. He was in the compound. I

18 could recognise his voice, and he carried -- he had a

19 white belt. I don't know where he had gone.

20 Q. Yes. So if you saw him in the middle of August, and he

21 had on a white belt, then he was probably already with

22 the military police; is that correct?

23 MS McHENRY: Objection. The witness has already stated he

24 does not know; that he saw he had a white military

25 belt. He doesn't know anything else.

1 MS McMURREY: Your Honour, he said a white belt. I am

2 trying to clarify it was military police.

3 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: You are making him an expert.

4 MS McMURREY: Either he knows that the military police wore

5 a white belt or he does not.

6 A. I know that the military police had white belts.

7 MS McMURREY: Thank you.

8 A. And that is what I heard, and that is what I know.

9 Q. Havala, Mr Gotovac.

10 A. You are welcome.

11 JUDGE JAN: What is the colour of the belt worn by the

12 guards?

13 MS McMURREY: I do not think the guards wore belts, your

14 Honour.

15 JUDGE JAN: Ask him.

16 MS McMURREY: Okay. The guards did not wear belts, did

17 they, Mr Gotovac?

18 A. They had belts, but they were not white.

19 MS McMURREY: Your Honours, I pass the witness.

20 A. You're welcome. Can I have a minute of rest, please? I

21 get really tired.

22 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: You can take a glass of water. Have a

23 glass of water. It might help you.

24 MS McHENRY: Your Honour, may we ask for a five to

25 ten-minute break at this point?

1 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Have you any re-examination? Oh,

2 there is still counsel ...

3 MR MORAN: Your Honour, I have, I think, about half an hour

4 of cross-examination. With the court's pleasure, if the

5 witness needs a break, I have no objection. Whatever

6 the court's pleasure.

7 A. I would appreciate a minute's break.

8 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: We will break for ten minutes.

9 (12.15 pm)

10 (Short break)

11 (12.30pm)

12 (Witness returned to court)

13 Cross-examination by MR MORAN

14 JUDGE JAN: I just want to ask one question: you have

15 spoken about a number of persons who were beaten and

16 some of them died. Were they sitting in the same row as

17 yours or in the row facing you?

18 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: The witness is still on his oath.

19 A. They were sitting facing me. They did not sit in the

20 middle row. They sat opposite me.

21 MR MORAN: May it please the court.

22 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Yes, you can carry on.

23 MR MORAN: Good afternoon, sir.

24 A. Good afternoon.

25 Q. My name is Tom Moran, and I am one of the defence

1 attorneys. I am going to ask you some questions and try

2 to clarify a few areas, and if you would listen to my

3 question and if you do not understand it, if you just

4 stop me, I will rephrase it, repeat it. Will you do

5 that for me?

6 A. Yes, I will.

7 Q. Will you just answer the question that I ask?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Okay. Thank you very much, sir.

10 A. You're welcome.

11 Q. Everyone has been talking about your vision and how good

12 it is but nobody has ever asked up whether you are

13 far-sighted or near-sighted. Some people can see at

14 distances but not up close. Other people can see up

15 close but not the distance. How about you, sir?

16 A. I don't know. My vision is the same up close and far,

17 but my only problem is that my first pair of glasses

18 that were given to me by a doctor were broken, and then

19 I never had a chance to obtain a new pair that would be

20 proper for me, so maybe these glasses that I have now,

21 maybe they ruined my eyesight even worse. I don't know.

22 Q. So you cannot see very well either far away or close up?

23 A. At the distance I have problems when the sun is shining,

24 but my eyesight is even poorer -- I find it even harder

25 to read with my glasses on, because these are not the

1 proper glasses. I should have glasses 3.5 and the other

2 eye is 4. That is the kind of glasses that I would need

3 for reading.

4 Q. All right, sir. Let me take you back to the day you

5 arrived at Celebici. That was May 22nd; is that not

6 right? Excuse me. It was May 23rd.

7 A. 23rd May 1992.

8 Q. You were immediately taken to building 22; is that not

9 right?

10 A. To the building 22.

11 Q. Did you see Hazim Delic that day, or was it the next day

12 that was the first time you saw him?

13 A. I did not see him that day but a day or two after that,

14 the next day.

15 Q. So that would have been May 24th; is that right, sir?

16 A. Yes, something like that approximately.

17 Q. But it was the day after you arrived at the camp?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Sir, yesterday -- by the way, on building 22 you were

20 there twice for fairly long periods; is that not right?

21 A. The first time the period was shorter, and the second

22 time the period was longer.

23 Q. Sir, do you remember whether there were any windows in

24 building 22?

25 A. There were two windows.

1 Q. Okay. You could see through them?

2 A. They were pretty high up. I couldn't see. The tall

3 people maybe they could see something, but the shorter

4 ones couldn't see anything.

5 Q. Okay. So someone that is my height would have a hard

6 time seeing out of the window; is that fair?

7 A. The person of my size couldn't see anything.

8 Q. How tall are you, sir?

9 A. 1 metre 72 cms.

10 Q. Okay, sir. Yesterday you testified about an incident

11 where you were given a haircut and at some point after

12 that haircut you were kicked and beaten; is that right?

13 A. I talked about that yesterday.

14 Q. You said that it was Hazim Delic that beat you; is that

15 right, beat you and kicked you?

16 A. I did not say that.

17 Q. Who was it, sir?

18 A. He just ordered that we should be -- that we should have

19 a hair cut. I was beaten by Esad Landzo, nicknamed

20 Zenga.

21 Q. In fact, Hazim Delic never beat you or kicked you at the

22 camp, did he?

23 A. No, he did not.

24 Q. I believe you have said at one point, either yesterday

25 or maybe perhaps in your written statement, that he

1 would make threats about sending you to Grude,

2 G-R-U-D-E. What is that?

3 A. I can't remember now that he was threatening me or there

4 was another guard, Kravar, who threatened to send us to

5 Grude. Then he went with us to the sports hall in

6 Konjic. There were other prisoners there. That is what

7 I heard from him. I didn't hear it from Delic.

8 Q. What is Grude?

9 A. There was a Croatian prison there in Grude. It's a

10 small town.

11 Q. I take it the reputation of that camp at Grude was that

12 it was worse than Celebici; is that right?

13 A. I don't know.

14 Q. When you were taken to the medical centre, it was Hazim

15 Delic that took you there; is that not correct?

16 A. No. Some other guards did it.

17 Q. Some other guards? They didn't -- you did not get into

18 Mr Delic's car and have him drive you to building 22

19 after you were hurt?

20 A. Yes, he took me when I was transferred from number 6 to

21 the 22. I was taken there by Delic.

22 Q. When he got you there, did he have anything to do with

23 your medical treatment?

24 A. I don't know. He may have. I don't have any personal

25 knowledge of that.

1 Q. You never saw him tell the doctors not to treat you, did

2 he?

3 A. I did not notice that. Only from time to time he would

4 say: "Go easy on the medicines."

5 Q. Do you know whether medicines were hard to get at that

6 time or whether they were easy to get and plentiful?

7 A. I don't know that. He has that knowledge.

8 Q. Well, there was a war going on, of course, was there

9 not?

10 A. Yes, there was a war. There was some kind of madness

11 going on. I was not involved in that. I didn't

12 understand what was happening.

13 Q. I am sure that most people in war do not understand what

14 is happening except that there is a war going on, but

15 because of the war the normal ways of getting things

16 like food and medicine were interrupted, were they not?

17 A. Everything's possible.

18 Q. So it would not be unusual for someone to suggest that

19 medicines be used carefully and not wasted, would it?

20 A. Well, people had what they had, and they could not do

21 anything with what they didn't have.

22 Q. It could be hard to get things because of the war, could

23 it not?

24 A. I didn't know anything about war operations, and I

25 couldn't say anything about it, as I was an old man, and

1 I heard the shooting, but I didn't know what was going

2 on, and I was not really interested in it.

3 JUDGE JAN: Shooting outside the camp or inside the camp?

4 MR MORAN: Your Honour, just the general war conditions.

5 JUDGE JAN: Ask him.

6 MR MORAN: Sir, did you know about the general war

7 conditions?

8 A. I was aware of it. I heard about it but I didn't know

9 what was going on. Nobody could explain to me, because

10 I was not familiar with the developments, with the

11 situation. I found it hard to believe that such things

12 were going on.

13 Q. In fact, before you were arrested on May 23rd, it was

14 getting difficult to get things that in the past had

15 been easily available, was it not?

16 A. Well, this is what happens.

17 Q. That is exactly right, sir. For instance, on food, do

18 you know what the rations were for the guards at

19 Celebici?

20 A. I don't know.

21 Q. So you do not know whether they were eating exactly the

22 same food you were eating or whether they had other

23 food?

24 A. I don't know, so I can't tell you anything about that.

25 Q. That is fair enough. Do you know whether the food was

1 cooked in the camp or whether it was cooked some place

2 else and brought to Celebici?

3 A. A red van brought food in from Konjic.

4 Q. And it was the same food for everybody?

5 A. What do you mean "for everybody"?

6 Q. For everyone that was at the camp, prisoners, guards?

7 A. No. It was separate.

8 Q. Sir, the second time you were in building 22, when you

9 were getting medical care, were you ever allowed out to

10 take a shower or to use a toilet facility?

11 A. The toilet was located outside the 22. We had to go

12 through a corridor where the administration office was,

13 and we left that way in the morning, and in the

14 evening. On some occasions we were allowed to go out,

15 but since I couldn't move, I very rarely went out. I

16 couldn't move.

17 Q. Were people allowed to take showers in that building?

18 A. On one occasion we had a bath, and on another occasion

19 they were told that they couldn't because there was a

20 water shortage.

21 Q. A couple of other quick questions, and I think we will

22 be through, sir. Slobodan Babic: I want you to focus on

23 him for a second. As you understand it, he received his

24 injuries before he arrived at Celebici; is that not

25 right?

1 A. Yes, before his arrival to Celebici, and he was in a bad

2 condition there. He couldn't see, he couldn't speak.

3 He just screamed. Probably his heart failed. He was

4 there for four or five days, maybe a bit more. I don't

5 know exactly. He left and Petko Grubac told me that he

6 had died in the school called Trec Mart.

7 Q. That is March 3rd, is it not?

8 A. The name of the school was 3rd March. That was the name

9 of the school, 3rd March.

10 Q. Mirko Babic: let us focus on him for just one second

11 also, can we, sir?

12 A. All right.

13 Q. When he arrived at the camp, he was also badly injured,

14 was he not?

15 A. From Bjelovcina to Konjic he was badly injured and then

16 he was in the sports hall, I don't know for how long,

17 and then he was transferred to the 22, and he was with

18 us.

19 Q. And those injuries he received before he arrived at

20 Celebici; is that not right?

21 A. He received some injuries before and some injuries he

22 received in Celebici.

23 Q. Okay. Fair enough. Two other quick questions, and then

24 I think we're done, sir.

25 Ms McMurrey asked you about Bosko, and I am going

1 to spell his last name because I want to make sure I do

2 not mispronounce it. I believe the spelling is

3 S-A-M-O-U-K-O-V-I-C?

4 A. Yes, Bosko Samoukovic.

5 Q. When he was brought by Mr Delic to building 22, Mr Delic

6 did not interfere with his medical care, did he?

7 A. No, he dropped him off in front of the door. He called

8 out the doctors, Petko and Relja, and he said: "Is he

9 going to croak?" Relja said: "He croaked." He died

10 shortly thereafter, and they put the blanket over him,

11 so he died.

12 Q. In the time that you were in building 22 did you ever

13 see Mr Delic interfere with medical care? By that I

14 mean tell doctors not to treat someone or how to treat

15 them?

16 A. As far as I recall, sometimes he cautioned people -- he

17 said: "Spare the medicines because they're hard to

18 find."

19 Q. But aside from that, he pretty well left the treatment

20 to the physicians; is that not right?

21 A. Yes. He let the doctors bring whatever there was and

22 what there was not, he could not ...

23 Q. One last area of questioning, sir, and then I believe we

24 are done. In the witness room where you were yesterday

25 and part of today is there a television set?

1 A. No, there is not.

2 Q. Thank you very much. I pass the witness, your Honour.

3 A. Maybe there is, but I don't know that there is one.

4 Q. But you did not see one?

5 A. No, I did not see -- I don't know if there was one.

6 Nobody turned it on or anything, but it looked to me as

7 if there was one in there.

8 Q. By the way, on the same subject, the people -- when you

9 were in the witness room, were you talking about the

10 case with the other witnesses?

11 A. No.

12 Q. Thank you very much.

13 A. You're welcome.

14 MR MORAN: Thank you, your Honour.

15 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: I suppose this is the

16 cross-examination by the defence, is it?

17 Cross-examination by MS RESIDOVIC

18 MS RESIDOVIC (in interpretation): Good day, Mr Gotovac.

19 A. Good day.

20 Q. My name is Edina Residovic. I am an attorney and I am

21 the defence attorney of Zejnil Delalic.

22 A. Glad to meet you.

23 Q. Since I realise that you have been answering our

24 questions for quite some time now, I will attempt to

25 phrase my questions shortly and succinctly.

1 A. Thank you.

2 Q. I will ask you to respond to them.

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. I will also ask you for your understanding. We

5 understand each other because we speak the same

6 language.

7 A. Yes, we do understand each other well.

8 Q. But what we say needs to be interpreted, so I would like

9 you to know that I will pause after each of your

10 responses.

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. And I would like you to do the same so that we could be

13 understood by all the parties.

14 A. I will.

15 Q. Mr Gotovac, on February 22nd, 1996 you gave a statement

16 to the investigators of the prosecution in Temisvar?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. On that occasion you confirmed that this statement could

19 be used before this Tribunal; correct?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. You signed the text of your statement?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. The text that you signed was in English?

24 A. I wouldn't know that. I don't know what language it was

25 in.

1 Q. Do you speak English by the way?

2 A. No.

3 Q. In your statement you spoke the truth; correct?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Is it correct that at that time -- that before the war

6 you lived in Konjic?

7 A. Yes, that is correct. I lived in a skyscraper.

8 Q. You also said that after your retirement you went to

9 live at your home village, Homolje, that is Vinjiste?

10 A. Yes, that is where I got married, and this is where I

11 built a summer home, and this is where I went after

12 retirement.

13 Q. Mr Gotovac, in order to better understand each other, is

14 it correct to say that the village of Vinjiste is part

15 of the village of Homolje?

16 A. One is always in brackets, so I don't know which one is

17 which, but that's that.

18 Q. And all this is part of the Donje Selo local commune?

19 A. That is correct.

20 Q. Is that correct?

21 A. That is correct.

22 Q. Thank you?

23 A. You are welcome.

24 Q. You also stated before this Trial Chamber that at the

25 time of fighting in Donje Selo you were in Homolje?

1 A. Yes, I was strictly at home with my children.

2 Q. Is it correct that Emir Alic, your neighbour, in order

3 to save you, to protect you from some possible events

4 invited you to his house?

5 A. Emir invited me to his house. He said: "There will be

6 some wild things coming", and I was there between

7 something like 12.30 and 9.00, and the police came with

8 white belts in a vehicle, and they said that they had to

9 take me to Celebici for some preliminary questioning,

10 and Miljevic Spasoje was there with Dervo Banjic. It

11 was a friend of theirs. That is where they were picked

12 up and put into that van. I didn't see them there, and

13 when we all got off, he stated -- I said: "Well how did

14 you get there?" He said he didn't see him -- I said:

15 "I didn't see you".

16 Q. Mr Gotovac, you did talk about that at some length;

17 right?

18 A. Yes, I did.

19 Q. However, when Emir Alic warned you, he told you -- he

20 said that HOS people will come?

21 A. He did not say HOS people. It's going to be some wild

22 things going, and so I had better get away. What he

23 meant by these wild things I still don't know.

24 Q. If in your statement it says that he told you that the

25 HOS people were coming to kill you, then it would not

1 have correctly reflected what you said?

2 A. No, I don't recall. I don't recall about the HOS

3 people. What I told you is what I remember.

4 JUDGE JAN: What is HOS?

5 A. Croatian armed forces or something, the Ustasha. Yes,

6 yes, the Ustasha.

7 Q. Mr Gotovac, you said that you were arrested by three

8 men?

9 A. Yes, three men.

10 Q. And that you assumed that they were policemen?

11 A. They had a flashlight. It was already growing dark, and

12 as I was entering the vehicle, they turned the

13 flashlight on and I saw white belts.

14 Q. You also said what they wore?

15 A. Yes, the camouflage uniforms.

16 Q. Did they also have belts?

17 A. I did not understand what kind of belts you have in

18 mind.

19 Q. The belts round their -- white belts?

20 A. Yes, yes, I said that.

21 Q. Did they have any insignia on their sleeves? Was that

22 the chequerboard?

23 A. No, lilies.

24 Q. Do you know in general that the military police wore

25 white belts?

1 A. Later I knew and I knew it well, but at that first

2 moment I did not know that well.

3 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Please, counsel, I think it is time to

4 go for lunch now. We will come back at 2.30, so that

5 you will continue.

6 (1.00 pm)

7 (Luncheon adjournment)

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1 (2.30 pm)

2 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Let us have the witness in.

3 (Witness returns to court)

4 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Remind the witness about his oath.

5 THE REGISTRAR: I would like to remind you that you are

6 still under oath.

7 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Ms Residovic, you can continue your

8 cross-examination.

9 MS RESIDOVIC: Thank you, your Honour.

10 Mr Gotovac, I hope that we are both rested now and

11 that we can continue.

12 A. Yes, partly.

13 Q. You said that you were born in the Konjic municipality?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. And that at the beginning of the war you were a citizen

16 of Bosnia-Herzegovina?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Were your children also born in the Konjic municipality?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. So your children were also at the outbreak of the war

21 the citizens of Bosnia-Herzegovina?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Thank you very much.

24 A. You're welcome.

25 Q. When I asked you this morning, you explained to me that

1 your village is part of a larger village, which is

2 called Donje Selo?

3 A. Viniste.

4 Q. And they all belong to the local commune of Donje Selo?

5 A. That is correct.

6 Q. Do you know Miljo Cecez?

7 A. I knew him when he was a child.

8 Q. Did you have an opportunity to meet him during the war?

9 A. No.

10 Q. Are you aware that before your arrest and before the

11 outbreak of the war he had left the Konjic municipality?

12 A. I don't know. I really couldn't say.

13 Q. Can you tell me: do you know Lazar Cecez?

14 A. Yes, I do. He used to work in the Ministry of the

15 Interior in the traffic police.

16 Q. Do you know that before the war Lazar Cecez was involved

17 in the arming of the Serbian population on behalf of the

18 SDS?

19 A. I don't know anything about that.

20 Q. Mr Cecez --

21 A. No, I am not Cecez.

22 Q. Apologies. Mr Gotovac, can you tell me if you know

23 Strahinja Zivak?

24 A. I used to know him but he lived a long way from my

25 village.

1 Q. He is from Brdani; is that right?

2 A. Yes, on the road to Bradina.

3 Q. Do you know that the villagers from Donje Selo received

4 weapons several months before the outbreak of the war?

5 A. I don't know. I was not involved in that. I minded my

6 own business and I do not know anything about that.

7 Q. You said that your sons were arrested together with you?

8 A. Yes, I did.

9 Q. Jordan and Danilo. Jordan was born in 1967?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Weapons were found with your son, a semi-automatic rifle

12 and a pistol?

13 A. I had a permit for the pistol. I owned it legally.

14 Q. What about the semi-automatic rifle and the rounds?

15 A. They never showed me that. I was not interested in

16 that.

17 Q. So if somebody said that your son received a weapon from

18 Milijan Cecez, you cannot confirm that fact or you are

19 not familiar with it?

20 A. I don't know that. They never told me that. I was not

21 interested in this.

22 Q. So, if I understood you correctly, in your house at your

23 children's place they could have done things that you

24 did not know anything about?

25 A. They were grown up lads. They listened to me, but I

1 didn't meddle in their affairs. They worked honestly,

2 and that was the way it was.

3 Q. You said that you lived in a high-rise building in

4 Konjic?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. After you retired and went to your village, Viniste, you

7 still had your apartment in Konjic; is that correct?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. You probably went to your apartment?

10 A. My wife went more often than I did, and my children.

11 Since I retired, I didn't go there very often, because

12 it was very far and I couldn't walk that far.

13 Q. Your village is up there on the hill above the railway

14 station; is that right?

15 A. Yes, towards Ugusca.

16 Q. Thank you very much.

17 A. You're welcome.

18 Q. Have you or your wife gone to your apartment in Konjic

19 in May or April?

20 A. My wife did go there because somebody had moved into the

21 apartment, and she couldn't get in, because for a while

22 all of us were up there because of the children. We had

23 a cow up there, because of the milk.

24 Q. Up there, where you were, you and other members of your

25 household, did you see what was happening in Konjic?

1 A. Nobody knew what was happening. Nobody was clear on

2 what was going on. Everything was very uncertain.

3 Q. You did not understand why the shelling was so severe?

4 A. We didn't know. We didn't know who was firing, opening

5 fire and why.

6 Q. But you knew that there were shooting every day?

7 A. Yes, we knew that there was shooting, but we didn't know

8 where or why. I don't know.

9 Q. In the area opposite your village en route to Borci and

10 Bijela Serbian forces were located there; is that

11 correct?

12 A. I don't know what was happening there in Borci and

13 Bijela.

14 Q. But you saw that there was shooting?

15 A. Well, those were the times. I couldn't see what was

16 going on. There was shooting from both sides -- from

17 all sides.

18 Q. You knew that many houses in Konjic had been ruined and

19 shelled?

20 A. Well, let me tell you. I spent 101 days in Celebici,

21 and when I went to Viniste, I didn't leave the place. I

22 couldn't see anything. I heard that some places were

23 destroyed, but I didn't go there and look personally.

24 Q. All right. I did not ask you about your knowledge after

25 you are left Celebici. We discussed when your wife went

1 in April and May to Konjic?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Since you do not have any personal knowledge of that, I

4 will not ask you any questions. You know that the road

5 along Donje Selo is the main route out of Konjic?

6 A. To Cerici, Pokojiste and Lisicici, all the way to

7 Seonica.

8 Q. The only way to go to Konjic from Sarajevo is across the

9 Mountain Ivan and through Bradina, Bradina, Podorasac

10 and Konjic?

11 A. Through the tunnel on the Mountain Ivan.

12 Q. Mr Gotovac, you told us that you were questioned in

13 Celebici twice. Once you were questioned by Stenek,

14 Miro, very briefly, the second time by Pavo?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. And the third time you were questioned in Temisvar?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Can you tell me, Mr Gotovac, whether you know that other

19 persons arrested in Celebici were also questioned just

20 as you were?

21 A. Yes, they were questioned but I didn't know who was

22 questioned when.

23 Q. Do you know that in the first days large number of

24 people were released?

25 A. No. They were not. No, I could not know that.

1 Q. The person who questioned you, was that the person who

2 determined whether you were to stay or to go?

3 A. What do you mean?

4 Q. Well, to go from Celebici?

5 A. Well, he did promise to me. He promised to my son

6 Danilo that he would release me eight days later, but I

7 remained there for 101 days.

8 Q. So these men who questioned you, Miro Stenek, and the

9 others, could have made such a decision?

10 A. Yes, but they did not. They did it later, and it was

11 their right to do so.

12 Q. Do you have any knowledge -- are you familiar with the

13 names of Avramovic, Milosevic, Dordorovic?

14 A. I don't know Milosevic by name. Which Milosevic do you

15 mean?

16 Q. Do you know anyone with the surnames I mentioned before

17 who were taken to the prison in Grude?

18 A. I don't have knowledge of that.

19 Q. Thank you very much.

20 A. You're welcome.

21 Q. You said that you remained about 100 days?

22 A. 101 days.

23 Q. Your sons were detained for much longer?

24 A. My older son for 7 months and my younger son for 8

25 months, because he had to fix a car and he had to stay

1 until he fixed the car. He was a mechanic.

2 Q. So let me ask you once again, Mr Gotovac: you cannot

3 testify personally about people arming in your village,

4 but you are aware of the fact that some people did have

5 weapons?

6 A. Well, I couldn't really say that either, because nobody

7 told me anything about it or showed me. I was not

8 interested in it so I can't really say, because I don't

9 know.

10 Q. Thank you very much.

11 A. You're welcome.

12 Q. Your Honour, that concludes my cross-examination.

13 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Have you any re-examination?

14 MS McHENRY: Your Honour, I do not have any re-examination,

15 unless it is necessary to get some evidence into

16 evidence.

17 First, with respect to the tape the defence

18 showed, I don't believe that they ever -- it was ever

19 admitted into evidence, and given that the witness did

20 use it, authenticate certain things in it, I would

21 just --

22 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: I am asking you if you have any

23 re-examination.

24 MS McHENRY: Well, your Honour, some of it depends on

25 whether --

1 A. I did not understand. Sorry.

2 MS McHENRY: Just one moment.

3 JUDGE JAN: There is nothing for you to understand.

4 MS McHENRY: Yesterday it was agreed that the person from

5 the Registrar -- from the video section would take

6 photographs and a video of Mr Gotovac's injuries. Those

7 have been done. I have shown the photos to the defence

8 attorneys this morning, which is when I got them. With

9 respect to the video, I have not seen it. I have not

10 had a chance.

11 I would ask that both the photographs and the

12 video of Mr Gotovac and his injuries be admitted into

13 evidence. I would also then like, and if it is

14 necessary with the defence I can introduce it in

15 evidence, given the questions in cross-examination,

16 there are two medical documents that Mr Gotovac has

17 provided, and I would introduce those into evidence,

18 and, if necessary, I can get them authenticated through

19 the witness.

20 Finally, I would ask that the court ask the

21 Registrar to appoint a medical expert to examine

22 Mr Gotovac to determine whether or not he has any

23 injuries, and whether or not those injuries are

24 consistent with what he relates having occurred in

25 Celebici.

1 MS McMURREY: Your Honour, may I respond?

2 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: They were not questions directed to

3 you.

4 MS McMURREY: Well, we have objections to some of her

5 offers and we have agreements with some of her offers.

6 JUDGE JAN: What about I46?

7 MS McMURREY: I --

8 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: The question of examining the witness

9 arose from the defence insistence, didn't it, the

10 defence which insisted that he should be examined? Now,

11 I asked the prosecution whether there was any

12 re-examination. If she has no re-examination, she

13 should say so.

14 If there are any questions arising out of

15 cross-examination and they cast doubts, you can

16 re-examine on it. If any of these photographs of

17 Gotovac are matters which arose out of

18 cross-examination, it could be turned out in evidence to

19 authenticate whatever was the issue in

20 cross-examination.

21 Now when you -- this is directed to Ms McMurrey --

22 when you are cross-examining, every counsel standing on

23 his feet thinks fast in their head what he has in mind

24 while the cross-examination is on. When you

25 cross-examine and insist that the witness should be, in

1 fact, photographed, obviously it was not a joke. You

2 wanted the photograph in evidence.

3 MS McMURREY: That is what we agreed to, to the

4 photographs, your Honour.

5 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: So definitely if the prosecution knows

6 what it should do, the photographs should be tendered in

7 evidence this morning through the witness, if it is his

8 photograph, arising out of what you did yesterday,

9 should be shown to him, should be tendered to him.

10 MS McMURREY: We agree with the photographs, your Honour,

11 but she has agreed to several other issues. We may

12 agree to the video. We have yet to see it.

13 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Except they do not arise from your

14 cross-examination. If they arose, you have no right to

15 object to it.

16 JUDGE JAN: You have asked him a lot of questions about

17 I46, which was played for a minute here. It should be

18 part of the record.

19 MS McMURREY: Yes, your Honour. I have it on a tape with

20 three other segments. I would like to have a chance to

21 isolate that alone and introduce --

22 JUDGE JAN: Yes, that alone to which your cross-examination

23 related, otherwise that part of the cross-examination

24 will become meaningless.

25 MS McMURREY: Your Honour, we would like to offer that in

1 the appropriate form as evidence.

2 JUDGE JAN: The portion which was shown to the witness.

3 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Relating to him.

4 MS McMURREY: Exactly. I am saying the tape we have up

5 here has much more than that part on it so I would like

6 to have a tape made just with the portion that was

7 played for cross-examination and we will tender that to

8 the court for admission into evidence, but we also --

9 she said about entering the photographs. We agree with

10 the photographs and she said about the videotape. We

11 have not seen the videotape. I am sure that once we see

12 it, we will agree to the videotape, but until we have

13 seen it, I do not believe we can offer agreement or

14 objection to it at this point.

15 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: I do not know if there is any other

16 new videotapes except the one that was played yesterday.

17 MS McMURREY: This was a videotape that the Registrar had

18 made of Mr Gotovac's injuries. Until we see it, we

19 cannot say whether we think it is accurate or whether we

20 have an objection to it, but I think it is probably in

21 agreement. We just have not yet had an opportunity to

22 view it.

23 JUDGE JAN: Why do you not give them the photographs?

24 MS McHENRY: Your Honour, they have seen the photographs.

25 Maybe the simplest way to handle this is with the

1 witness on the stand. I will ask him if there was a

2 videotape taken yesterday by the Registrar of his

3 injuries. The videotape can then be shown and then we

4 can admit it into evidence and consider it. So I will

5 ask --

6 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Actually the proper thing to have, and

7 all of them should have been taken with the defence.

8 They should have been there.

9 MS McHENRY: Your Honour, the prosecution was not there,

10 nor was the defence. It occurred by the Registrar after

11 Chambers -- after court recessed yesterday evening.

12 Mr Gotovac, yesterday evening was there a

13 videotape taken of your injured --

14 JUDGE JAN: Hand injuries?

15 MS McHENRY: His hand injuries, his shoulder injuries and

16 his abdominal injuries?

17 A. Yes, that is correct. It was taped yesterday.

18 Q. Mr Gotovac, I am going to ask you to look at that tape,

19 but before I, do I want to find out whether or not you

20 would like that tape shown just to the judges in a

21 private session or whether or not -- in other words, it

22 would not then be shown to the public, or are you happy

23 for the entire tape to be shown to the public?

24 A. Well, I don't mind. It's better to do it that way.

25 Q. Better to do it privately or in front of the public?

1 Which would you like, Mr Gotovac?

2 A. Better without the public.

3 Q. Okay. Then with respect to at least just the showing of

4 the video, I would like to request that it not be shown

5 on the monitors or to be made part of the record; at

6 least I would like a private session with respect to the

7 showing of his injuries?

8 JUDGE JAN: To form part of the judicial record.

9 MS McHENRY: Definitely part of the judicial record, but

10 not part of the public record, your Honour. Correct.

11 MS McMURREY: Your Honour, we have no objections to the

12 showing of that. Thank you.

13 (In closed session)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (In open session)

23 MS McHENRY: Yes, your Honour. If I could please also have

24 the usher show him the two additional pictures -- the

25 pictures do not have to go on the ELMO, because it is in

1 public session. They have previously been shown to

2 defence counsel.

3 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Actually are all these matters which

4 arose out of cross-examination?

5 MS McHENRY: Yes, your Honour.

6 Sir, are those three photographs that were taken

7 of your injuries yesterday also?

8 A. I already said that before; yes, they are.

9 Q. Okay.

10 Your Honour, at this point we would move as

11 Prosecution Exhibit 76 the picture of Mr Gotovac's hand,

12 as Prosecution Exhibit 77 the picture of his abdomen; as

13 Prosecution Exhibit 78 the picture of his shoulder; and

14 as Prosecution Exhibit 79 the videotape of his injuries.

15 MS McMURREY: Your Honour, the defence of Esad Landzo has

16 no objections to these.

17 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: But get your portion of the video

18 exhibited as a defence exhibit, that portion.

19 MS McMURREY: Yes, your Honour. I will have that made as

20 soon as we get a break in here and I will -- I am

21 offering it into evidence and I will give the actual

22 document from the Video Department whenever I have it

23 cut just to that part, but as far as the photos and the

24 videotape that were made by the Registrar, the defence

25 has no objections.

1 MS McHENRY: With the usher's assistance now I would also

2 like to have these two documents marked. Here are extra

3 copies. These are documents which previously have been

4 provided to the defence concerning Mr Gotovac's going to

5 a doctor, and I would ask that they be marked as

6 Prosecution Exhibits 80 and 81 and then shown to the

7 witness.

8 I am sorry. There is a misunderstanding. The

9 defence had already been given copies but we will make

10 sure the judges get extra copies.

11 Do not worry. Excuse me, Mr Usher, I would like

12 the originals to be shown to the witness.

13 Your Honour, I will, with apologies to the court,

14 because this is a matter that was only raised during

15 cross-examination as potentially being relevant, we do

16 not yet have translations but I will make sure we get

17 translations immediately, but since the matter was

18 raised during cross-examination and before the witness

19 left, I believe we needed to get them authenticated.

20 Sir, do you recognise these two documents that

21 have been put before you, Prosecution Exhibits, for

22 identification purposes, 80 and 81?

23 A. Yes, I do recognise them. I do.

24 Q. Please tell us what they are.

25 JUDGE JAN: These documents do not bear any date, this

1 particular set?

2 A. These two documents refer to the palm and to the

3 abdominal area.

4 JUDGE JAN: They do not bear any date.

5 MS McHENRY: One of the documents is undated.

6 JUDGE JAN: That is more important.

7 MS McHENRY: I will ask him that after he has identified

8 them. Thank you.

9 MS McHENRY: Mr Gotovac, can you tell us when you obtained

10 these documents?

11 A. One document I got two months ago in Visegrad and the

12 other one I got in Trebinje last year.

13 JUDGE JAN: Which one is two months ago?

14 A. Because I went to have surgery but they said I first

15 have to be certified as to my disability and then have

16 the surgery.

17 JUDGE JAN: He has not given the name of the doctor, even.

18 MS McHENRY: Mr Gotovac, does one of those documents have a

19 date on it of 1995, please?

20 A. Yes, you are right.

21 Q. Did you obtain that document in 1995?

22 A. Excuse me? I didn't understand you.

23 Q. Referring to the document that has a date on it of 1995

24 I am asking if the date on that document in 1995 is an

25 accurate reflection of when you obtained that document?

1 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Actually, excuse me --

2 A. Yes. I told you I went to have the surgery.

3 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Why are you putting in the documents?

4 MS McHENRY: I am putting in the documents because first of

5 all the defence referred to these documents in

6 cross-examination, and, two, to the extent that the

7 defence suggested that maybe these injuries did not

8 exist or did not know -- that there was no medical proof

9 that these injuries even existed, that they are

10 relevant.

11 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Almost three years after the events.

12 MS McHENRY: Yes, your Honour.

13 JUDGE JAN: This is about the abdominal injury.

14 MS McHENRY: Your Honour, I believe -- during lunch I had a

15 translator attempt to read them to me, and one of them I

16 believe primarily concerns the scar on his right hand,

17 and the other one concerns the -- the other one, dated

18 5/26/95, concerns his abdominal injury.

19 MS McMURREY: Your Honour, I do not know if we have an

20 opportunity to respond to this but we have this

21 translated in English, that was provided by the

22 prosecution, all except the letter about his hand, which

23 is undated, and we do not know if that occurred or even

24 if there is any authentication on that. The first

25 document, which is incomplete: there is a second page

1 attached to it. We have both documents, and it is our

2 assertation that the prosecution should have introduced

3 these documents in direct examination. If they are

4 introducing them now, we would like at least an

5 opportunity to question the witness about these

6 documents also. We will offer the English version -- we

7 would like the complete documented fitted into evidence

8 if we are going to admit the first page. Then we want

9 both pages. Here is the English translation.

10 JUDGE JAN: How do you know there are two pages and not

11 only one page?

12 MS McMURREY: We have two pages.

13 JUDGE JAN: No translation?

14 MS McHENRY: No, your Honour. If I understand, the

15 original is a double-sided piece of paper with writing

16 on both sides and I thought that everyone had been

17 provided both sides, whether or not it occurred in one

18 page or two. I don't know.

19 JUDGE JAN: They have saved some paper. There is one at

20 the back.

21 MS McMURREY: I wanted to make sure. We have both the front

22 and the back interpreted here if the court would like.

23 I have only my one copy. I do not know whether anybody

24 else in the defence has a copy. If we are going to

25 allow these into evidence, all we ask is that we be

1 allowed to ask five or six questions of the witness

2 concerning these documents before they are admitted.

3 Thank you.

4 JUDGE JAN: They can be admitted, but you can ask

5 questions, because it is new material.

6 MS McMURREY: Thank you very much. Do you want us to ask

7 them now or should I let Ms McHenry finish.

8 JUDGE JAN: Let her finish.

9 MS McHENRY: Okay. That is all, with the exception of, as

10 I mentioned in the beginning, we would request that,

11 assuming the Chamber also finds it would be helpful,

12 that an impartial medical expert be appointed by the

13 Registrar to examine Mr Gotovac and determine whether or

14 not his injuries are consistent with his account of what

15 happened.

16 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: This is in addition to these medical

17 certificates which you are tendering?

18 MS McHENRY: Yes, your Honour. I believe they are for two

19 separate purposes. One was really for him to get

20 treatment and this other one would be to assist the

21 court rather than to help Mr Gotovac get treatment. I

22 previously raised this with the defence and they are in

23 agreement, but it is really a matter entirely of whether

24 or not the Chamber believes it would be of assistance.

25 MS McMURREY: Your Honour, may I add that we would

1 certainly like him examined, number one, because there

2 appears to be some mark on his hand. It has never been

3 determined what kind of scar it is, what kind of mark it

4 is, and also if a doctor can look at the injury, maybe

5 the doctor can tell how old or how long he has had this

6 kind of condition or things like that. That includes

7 the shoulder. We would like to have some kind of

8 impartial examination of Mr Gotovac also. So we are

9 asking the court for the same thing. Thank you.

10 MR GREAVES: Your Honour, could I raise one matter, please,

11 concerning the medical report that is proposed? I would

12 also be anxious to know if there was any impediment to

13 him being treated at an earlier stage than today. It

14 seems to have taken a very long time to have it treated.

15 JUDGE JAN: I thought you had already asked this question.

16 Somebody had. Did he get himself medically treated

17 after his release? Somebody did ask this question.

18 MR GREAVES: The question I want to ask is: was there

19 anything to stop him being treated? In other words, he

20 still has the condition, but plainly if he could have

21 been treated at a much earlier stage, his suffering

22 would have been less.

23 MS McMURREY: Your Honour, may I proceed just to ask

24 Mr Gotovac a few questions about these medical

25 documents?

1 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Yes, you can. I do not know what type

2 of prosecution --

3 JUDGE JAN: Miss McHenry, have you finished with the

4 witness?

5 MS McHENRY: Yes, your Honour.

6 MS McMURREY: Thank you

7 Cross-examination by MS McMURREY (resumed)

8 MS McMURREY: Mr Gotovac, the document, the one that is

9 from Trebinje and has the date of 26th May 1995 on it,

10 could you pick that up and look at it, please?

11 A. 26th May 1995.

12 Q. On the left side the document has file number 17953 on

13 it, does it not?

14 A. 17953.

15 Q. It also says: "The War Hospital in Boracko Jerezo"

16 doesn't it?

17 Your Honours, I may have to spell that,

18 B-O-R-A-C-K-O J-E-Z-E-R-O, however that is pronounced,

19 Boracko Jezero. It says that in the left-hand corner,

20 does it not?

21 A. I can see the date.

22 Q. Your Honours, may it help if I could put it on the ELMO

23 and then be able to point to the areas that I am

24 describing? Would that help, because in one corner it

25 says "The War Hospital of Boracko Jezero"?

1 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: I suppose the document you have is

2 quite different from what I have.

3 MS McMURREY: May I put it on the ELMO?

4 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: You will not be cross-examining on the

5 same document?

6 MS McMURREY: Yes.

7 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: The one I have does not have the

8 things you are mentioning.

9 MS McMURREY: This one, your Honour. This in this corner

10 right here, I have the interpretation provided by the

11 prosecution, and that corner right there according to

12 the prosecution says: "War Hospital of Boracko Jezero".

13 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: I have that handicap then. We do not

14 have the same document.

15 MS McMURREY: Your Honours, if we could take just a

16 five-minute recess, I will have copies made of the

17 English translation. I think that would be more

18 helpful.

19 JUDGE JAN: You have the English translation before you.

20 MS McMURREY: Right here in my hand, your Honour.

21 JUDGE JAN: We have the original before us. There are two

22 dates there. One date is on 26th May 1995. At the back

23 there is another date.

24 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: 1st June.

25 JUDGE JAN: 1st January something.

1 MS McMURREY: It is in Cyrillic, your Honour. It is in

2 Serbian. I think if you would just let me have a copy

3 made, I will give you the English translation that was

4 provided to us by the Prosecution. I have both pages --

5 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: It is strange they can provide you

6 with the translation and they have none with them here.

7 MS McHENRY: Your Honour, I was not aware that there was a

8 translation or that the translation was done by the

9 Office of the Prosecutor. I do not have it. If it is

10 from the Office of the Prosecutor, then my apologise

11 certainly to the Chamber and everyone for this

12 inconvenience. It is also possible that sometimes

13 documents are given in the original and then various

14 members of the defence get them translated through the

15 Registrar's Office, not through us. I just cannot tell

16 you which it is. I apologise. I do not have the

17 translation and I was not aware that one had been done,

18 but ...

19 MS McMURREY: Your Honours, I have one. I would love to

20 present it to you if we can just have one break so we

21 can have copies made.

22 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: It is not necessary. Put it on the

23 ELMO.

24 MS McMURREY: Okay.

25 MS McHENRY: Presumably you could look at it on the ELMO

1 too.

2 MS McMURREY: If I could walk across to the ELMO, otherwise

3 I will not be able to question him.

4 JUDGE JAN: You can see it on your screen.

5 MS McMURREY: I am going to put the English version on the

6 ELMO. I am going to try to direct you to the Cyrillic

7 version, as long as I can see it.

8 Can you read it, your Honour?

9 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Yes.

10 MS McMURREY: Mr Gotovac, the top portion. Do you read

11 Serbian, by the way?

12 A. Yes, I do, but I cannot see this very well.

13 Q. I am sorry, I did not hear the answer.

14 A. I can't see this very well. As I said, it's a bit

15 foggy. All I can see is the name and the last name.

16 MS McMURREY: Well, I want you to pick up your original

17 version. We are looking at this English version. Can

18 you pick up your original document that says in the

19 corner -- I can't see it on the ELMO -- I think it says

20 the Republika Srpska up in the corner. Do you have that

21 in front of you? Now below that?

22 A. Yes, I do.

23 Q. Then you see down underneath --

24 A. It says: "General hospital in Trebinje" up in the

25 corner.

1 Q. That is what I was going to ask you. The one on the

2 right says: "The General Hospital of Trebinje" and the

3 one on the left says: "The War Hospital of Boracko

4 Jezero", does it not. Now --

5 A. There was a hospital up in Boracko Jezero but I don't

6 know to whom it belonged. Somebody gave me referral for

7 the surgery but they didn't perform a surgery on me

8 until my disability had been established.

9 Q. I am not asking you about that. On the left it says:

10 "The War Hospital of Boracko Jezero" and on the right

11 it says: "The Medical Centre of Trebinje". Now those

12 two cities are at least four hours away, are they not?

13 A. Yes, they are far apart from one another. I don't know

14 who ran that hospital. I only know that I went to

15 Trebinje to get surgery. However the surgeon asked me

16 whether your disability has been established, and I said

17 "no". Then he said: "Well, don't do it now", because

18 then he won't be able to prove it later. Then I asked

19 to be given surgery in Belgrade. They said not yet but

20 I think I will do it once I go back to Belgrade.

21 Q. In fact, these doctors were all Serbian doctors, who

22 knew about your criminal case here in The Hague, were

23 they not?

24 A. No, they did not know. They have no idea about this.

25 Q. Okay. Then can your Honour please turn it to the second

1 page, where the doctor, the same visit, writes a little

2 further?

3 JUDGE JAN: It is a referral for examination.

4 MS McMURREY: Yes.

5 JUDGE JAN: It is a referral for examination.

6 MS McMURREY: Yes, it is. The next page says -- and the

7 doctor whose name we cannot ascertain said that you

8 sustained injuries at the enemy detention camp of

9 Celebici three years ago. Is that not what that says on

10 the back of your original document?

11 A. Yes, yes, it does, because my injuries were sustained in

12 1992.

13 Q. So the only thing he is putting down there is what you

14 told him; is that not right?

15 A. I told him that I needed a surgery and I already

16 explained why they didn't want to perform a surgery,

17 because I needed to establish my disability.

18 Q. So he referred you to other doctors, did he not?

19 A. From Trebinje, yes.

20 Q. When he makes a finding that you --

21 A. Yes, yes, to another doctor.

22 Q. And when he --

23 A. Because up in Jezero there was -- I could only have done

24 it in Trebinje, but now I have started the process to

25 get a surgery in Belgrade.

1 Q. Yes, sir. Mr Gotovac, I am very aware that you need

2 some medical attention for your condition, but my

3 question here is: this doctor is a referring doctor,

4 and what he wrote down on this document is just what you

5 told him. He does not have any personal knowledge about

6 this enemy detention camp at Celebici that he wrote

7 down, does he?

8 A. No. He said: "Where did you get it?" I said: "I got it

9 in 1992 in Celebici under torture."

10 Q. This Doctor Butalja, he is a Serbian doctor, is he not?

11 A. I don't know. I didn't ask him and I don't know.

12 Q. Then could you pick up the second document, where nobody

13 has a translation of this, but there is no -- the

14 second document that talks about your hand injury, there

15 is no date on this, is there, Mr Gotovac?

16 A. I cannot see one no, there isn't one.

17 Q. In fact, other than what you tell us, we have no way to

18 tell whether this was even written by a doctor, do we?

19 A. Well, it was written by a doctor; in fact, by three

20 doctors. It was signed by three doctors, so that I can

21 undergo surgery in Belgrade.

22 Q. And those doctors are through the Belgrade Serbian

23 Commission that you went to see; is that correct?

24 A. I got this in Visegrad from doctors there. I don't know

25 if they were Serbian. I was not asking. I just wanted

1 to undergo surgery and to go here and on my way back to

2 have surgery, and they signed it.

3 Q. Mr Gotovac, excuse me. You did not go to these doctors

4 to have surgery on your hand, did you?

5 A. In Belgrade no, no. When I go there now, I will ask to

6 have surgery first for one thing and then for the other,

7 and then to see what can be done about my shoulder.

8 Q. Now, the truth is you got this document two months ago

9 before testifying in this court, did you not?

10 A. The one about my hand?

11 Q. Yes. Yes.

12 A. No. I got it 15 days before I was supposed to travel

13 here.

14 JUDGE JAN: That is even shorter.

15 A. I didn't even think that I would be handing this

16 document here. I just wanted to have my surgery done in

17 Belgrade.

18 MS McMURREY: I have no further questions about these two

19 documents, your Honour. I would just like to argue as

20 to why I do not believe they should be admitted into

21 evidence. Thank you, Mr Gotovac.

22 JUDGE JAN: These are his documents. Let us exhibit them.

23 You can argue about the reliability or the probative

24 value later.

25 MS McMURREY: Thank you very much for allowing me to

1 question him.

2 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Let me find out just one question: was

3 it possible for you to get any certificate of your

4 injury at the Celebici camp, room 22 at the medical

5 facilities there?

6 A. No, I could not have.

7 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Why? Because you were examined by

8 doctors there and they treated you?

9 A. These doctors were prisoners. They were also in

10 detention. They couldn't have issued any documents to

11 us.

12 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: They were functioning as doctors for

13 the infirmary there?

14 A. Yes, but they were detainees themselves. Both doctors

15 will testify before this Tribunal.

16 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Thank you very much.

17 A. You're welcome.

18 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Mr Greaves, I think you are satisfied

19 with what has transpired. You do not need further

20 explanation.

21 MR GREAVES: I think we have got the answer and I am

22 grateful to your Honour. Thank you.

23 MS McMURREY: Your Honours, may I get my English

24 translation there, and if you would like, I imagine that

25 the prosecution could make some copies of that to

1 provide you for the record. I am sorry. I have a few

2 markings on there. Excuse me.

3 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: I thought you were that charitable.

4 JUDGE JAN: You can give us cleaner copies. It does not

5 matter.

6 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Well, the prosecutor -- I think you

7 are making a joint application about this witness being

8 examined by a doctor to indicate whether he was injured

9 or, if he was, how long ago, whether any of his injuries

10 are the result of what happened when he was in the

11 Celebici camp. I think these are your enquiries.

12 MS McMURREY: Yes, your Honour. I think we both would like

13 to know the truth of whatever has happened to

14 Mr Gotovac, and I think that is the best way to find

15 out. Thank you.

16 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Okay. The Trial Chamber will grant

17 the application. I think we will make the necessary

18 reference.

19 MS McMURREY: Thank you.

20 MS McHENRY: Thank you, your Honour.

21 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Is that all you have for this

22 witness?

23 MS McHENRY: Yes, your Honour. That is all we have. Thank

24 you.

25 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: The defence has nothing.

1 MR MORAN: Nothing from us, your Honour.

2 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Okay. This witness is discharged,

3 pending his examination by the doctor, his medical

4 examination. It will make it easier for everyone if he

5 is examined before he leaves.

6 MS McMURREY: Your Honour, before we go to the next

7 witness, that just brings to mind that the court had

8 ordered an examination.

9 A. Thank you your Honours.

10 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Thank you.

11 (Witness withdrew from court)

12 MS McMURREY: The court had ordered an examination of Mirko

13 Babic too. I was just wondering if we had any results

14 of this examination yet so we might be provided with a

15 copy of it.

16 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Okay. We will communicate to you,

17 because I hear this examination actually took place.

18 MS McMURREY: Thank you so much.

19 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Who is your next witness that you want

20 to call now?

21 MR TURONE: Yes, your Honour. We now call Mr Mirko

22 Kuljanin as a witness.

23 JUDGE JAN: Is he related to the woman -- Mrs Cecez was

24 referring to some women who were brought to Celebici

25 camp. She named four women and one was, I think,

1 Kuljanin.

2 MR TURONE: There are many Kuljanins anyway in this case.

3 JUDGE JAN: It is a common name. Okay. She mentioned four

4 of them, Melina and others. One was Kuljanin. I was

5 wondering whether he was related to her.

6 MR TURONE: The surname Kuljanin is very, very spread,

7 actually. We have a number of persons with this

8 surname.

9 JUDGE JAN: Thank you

10 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Please swear the witness.

11 MR MIRKO KULJANIN (sworn)

12 Examined by MR TURONE

13 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Thank you.

14 A. (In interpretation): Is that all right? Can I sit

15 down?

16 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Yes, you can.

17 MR TURONE: May I proceed, your Honour?

18 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Yes, you can.

19 MR TURONE: Sir, would you please state your full name?

20 A. Mirko Kuljanin.

21 Q. What is your date of birth, please?

22 A. 26th October 1931.

23 Q. Can you say what is your ethnic group?

24 A. Serbian.

25 Q. Where were you born?

1 A. I was born in Bradina, Konjic municipality, the village

2 of Bradina, the municipality of Konjic.

3 Q. Thank you. Mr Kuljanin, what education did you

4 receive? I mean, what kind of schools did you attend

5 and how many years?

6 A. I had eight years of primary school and then I had some

7 exams that were for my work, the work that I did.

8 Q. What is this work, your profession?

9 A. I worked for the rail roads. I was a conductor in

10 Sarajevo, conductor on the trains.

11 Q. Where did you live at the beginning of May 1992?

12 A. I lived in Bradina, in the village of Bradina.

13 Q. Were you still working as a railroad conductor at that

14 time?

15 A. No. I was retired since 1984.

16 Q. Okay. Thank you. Can you say, was Bradina a village

17 with Serbian majority or Muslim majority or Croatian

18 majority?

19 A. A Serb majority, almost all Serbian.

20 Q. Can you say approximately how many inhabitants or how

21 many families did Bradina have at that time?

22 A. Around 600, 600 inhabitants.

23 Q. Can you say approximately how many of them were Serbs

24 and how many Muslims and how many Croats?

25 A. What I know is by households, the people who owned

1 property there. There were four families of Croats and

2 the rest were all Serbs. There were a few Muslims, but

3 those were the people who worked there, and they lived

4 there temporarily, so I don't know if we counted a

5 single household as Muslims.

6 Q. Can you say what is approximately the distance between

7 Bradina and Konjic town?

8 A. 12, 13 kms, thereabouts.

9 Q. Your Honours, if I could ask now that witness Kuljanin

10 be provided with Prosecution Exhibit number 4, please,

11 which is a map, and could the map be placed on the ELMO,

12 please, Prosecution Exhibit number 4.

13 Mr Kuljanin, if you watch this map on your right,

14 could you indicate to the court the position of the town

15 of Konjic and the position of the village of Bradina on

16 this map?

17 A. Yes, I can. This is Konjic and this is Bradina.

18 (Indicates).

19 Q. You should indicate that on the map not in front of you

20 but on your right please?

21 A. Okay.

22 Q. Probably the map has to be shown more completely.

23 A. Konjic. (Indicates).

24 Q. Because --

25 A. And Bradina. (Indicates).

1 JUDGE JAN: In the whitish area.

2 MR TURONE: Is Bradina situated on a road?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. In which direction?

5 A. The road from Sarajevo through Konjic towards Mostar and

6 towards the coast leads through Bradina.

7 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: I am not sure the defence will allow

8 if you ask leading questions in respect of this

9 direction. Where is Bradina? Which direction is it

10 from Konjic? Do not --

11 MR TURONE: Can you state again: is Bradina, with respect

12 to Konjic, in which direction is that situated coming

13 from Konjic; you go in which direction through Bradina?

14 A. From Konjic to Bradina is in the direction of Sarajevo.

15 Q. Thank you. Mr Kuljanin was there a time when Bradina

16 was affected by armed conflict in 1992, I mean affected

17 by real military action, or shooting or shelling or

18 something like that?

19 A. Not that much. There was something on May 25th to 26th.

20 Q. Yes. Was there a time when you were arrested?

21 A. I was arrested on 26th May in the afternoon towards the

22 evening with a larger group of other people.

23 Q. Can you briefly say -- explain the circumstances of your

24 arrest?

25 A. Yes. I reluctantly remember this. I do not like to

1 recall that day and everything that happened then, but I

2 know that it was horrible, that it was not part of human

3 relationships. Whatever was -- whoever was in that

4 village, in that hamlet was going to be annihilated, not

5 just people but the livestock as well, and then

6 everything was being set on fire, the houses and barns

7 and all the other structures, and that's when I had the

8 most stress. I heard the screams, not just human ones

9 but from the livestock, the cows that were burning alive

10 in barns and dogs and cats.

11 Q. Mr Kuljanin, can you describe the very moment of your

12 arrest?

13 A. There was a group of women and children with whom I was

14 herded onto that road that led to Konjic. I arrived

15 there with the last of the group. There was a lot of

16 people there. I don't know the exact number. They were

17 already lined up. It was a long column.

18 Q. Excuse me, Mr Kuljanin, where were you when you were

19 arrested?

20 A. I was at home when they came, when this group arrived.

21 Q. Which group?

22 A. I don't know how to call them. Army? They had uniforms

23 on, mostly black uniforms. There was some camouflage,

24 multi-coloured uniform, but for the most part it was

25 black uniform. Now who this military was I wouldn't

1 know. Who commanded I don't know either, because, I am

2 sorry, from that group I did not know a single person.

3 Q. Well, how many people were they, approximately?

4 A. Many. There were a lot of people in the village so

5 there were a lot of them.

6 Q. You said they came into your house?

7 A. Excuse me?

8 Q. You said you were in your house when you were arrested?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Could you explain very briefly how did that occur?

11 A. Well, it was sad. We could hear shooting from different

12 sides and then they started coming, and a relative and I

13 found a white rag to have it ready. We didn't know what

14 to expect. Then we saw them around the village, and

15 then they started coming to the village. Then they

16 arrived in the village, and then this sad scene took

17 place when they entered the village and started their

18 acts.

19 Q. Please, Mr Kuljanin I would like you to tell us exactly

20 how were you arrested personally.

21 A. From my home. On one side there were women and children

22 and on the other side there were four or five men and I

23 was in front of my house. My father was in the house.

24 He was 84, and I was -- I had been with him. I saw the

25 four or five younger ones. They tied their hands behind

1 their backs. I was there with this group where they

2 were tying people up. A man came, a soldier, and asked

3 me where my pistol was. I had that pistol with the

4 permit, and I looked at him and he seemed to know that I

5 had this pistol.

6 Then I went into the house and I said: "It's not

7 here. You know where you keep it. You don't keep it

8 where it's accessible to kids." Then I went into the

9 bedroom where I gave him my pistol. When we came out,

10 the ones that were there were already led on, and then

11 they included me in the group with women and children,

12 and there were also four elderly men, and this group was

13 then taken down to Bradina. Then we stood there and

14 then they put us in a column that was already lined up

15 and ready and facing Konjic.

16 Q. Mr Kuljanin, were you told the reason why you were being

17 arrested?

18 A. No, nothing. I was told nothing. I did not know, nor

19 did I ever find out. It's not clear to me.

20 Q. Did you in any way take part in the defence of your

21 village?

22 A. No, not directly, even though I did have a rifle, I had

23 it before, a regular rifle. I had the property up there

24 and it was already sensitive, and there was a younger

25 man also with me, so that he and I went to plant

1 potatoes and then we put down the rifles and we started

2 working, but there was a group right around us and asked

3 for a rifle.

4 Q. Excuse me, Mr Kuljanin. You are now talking of

5 something which took place in some other time, not the

6 day of your arrest; is that correct?

7 A. Correct. That was before. I don't know exactly when,

8 maybe 15 days before that, and at that time I was --

9 that rifle was taken away from me. That was a group

10 also.

11 Q. So since you have been talking about this rifle now, if

12 you want to explain now who gave you that rifle, about

13 fifteen days before your arrest you said, if I am not

14 wrong?

15 A. No, at that time it was taken away from me and I had

16 been given it five or six days prior to that by Slobodan

17 Kuljanin.

18 Q. Who took that away from you five or six days after that?

19 A. Those were some people. I don't know where from. I

20 didn't know them but I think that they came from the

21 village of Repovci, from that direction. There were

22 seven or eight of them, and I knew some of them by

23 sight, but I didn't know them by their names.

24 Q. So at the time of your arrest you didn't have any other

25 weapon besides your pistol in your bedroom; is that

1 correct?

2 A. No.

3 Q. Going back to this day of your arrest, can you

4 approximately say how many persons in your village were

5 armed and active in the defence of the village of

6 Bradina?

7 A. I don't know, but I could not say that it was an active

8 defence, because I know there were very few, maybe 20,

9 25 people there and defence was nothing. It was just

10 people trying to defend their houses and families, and

11 given the forces there, there was no defence, because if

12 it was also known that none of the people who attacked

13 were -- did any harm.

14 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Thank you very much, Mr Turone. We

15 will have to rise and come back about 4.20 --

16 MR TURONE: Okay.

17 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: -- for you to continue.

18 (4.00 pm)

19 (Short break)

20 (4.20 pm)

21 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Please let us have the witness and

22 carry on.

23 (Witness returned to court)

24 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Please warn the witness he is still on

25 his oath.

1 THE REGISTRAR: I remind you that you are still under oath.

2 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Yes. You can carry on, Mr Turone.

3 MR TURONE: Thank you, your Honour.

4 So, Mr Kuljanin, what happened to you right after

5 your arrest? I mean, where were you brought?

6 A. When they took us down there, the whole group, women,

7 children, all of us together, the women and children

8 were separated to one side and we, the men, were lined

9 up in the column. We stood there for a time.

10 Q. What do you mean "there"?

11 A. I mean at the crossroads, at the road, where the column

12 was lined up to head to Konjic. We were lined up one by

13 one.

14 Q. You mean still in Bradina?

15 A. Yes, that is correct.

16 Q. Yes. After that where were you brought?

17 A. Then we stood there for a time. Some more people were

18 gathered there and then we got the order to take off our

19 coats, hats, and we had to comply. Then the order was

20 issued to start walking, and we had to be as close to

21 each other as possible, and we had to keep our hands

22 behind our heads, and so we set off down that road

23 towards Konjic.

24 Then they started beating us. We did not know --

25 I did not know what was going on. I could not believe

1 that this was happening and we went for maybe 2 kms, but

2 the soldiers were all the time on both sides of the

3 column, and they beat us. Men were covered in blood.

4 Their heads were broken. They fell down. We were hit

5 with various objects. Some people were barefoot because

6 their shoes fell off. Then we came to a tunnel, which

7 had been blown up. This was done by some people from

8 Konjic. The tunnel was blown up and closed for traffic.

9 Q. Which tunnel are you talking about?

10 A. The tunnel on the road from Bradina to Konjic. I think

11 it is about two kms approximately away from Bradina,

12 from the centre of Bradina on the route to Konjic, and

13 when we came there, those who had already been there,

14 they were put on trucks, and they had already gone. I

15 remember very clearly that I was in the last vehicle.

16 It was a tonne truck but en route we were beaten very

17 severely and my head was broken in several places.

18 I was bleeding so hard that I couldn't even see

19 where I was going, but he continued beating me and told

20 me to keep my hands up. So I managed somehow to get

21 down. So when we had to get on we could not do it,

22 because we were so weak from the beating, and a man fell

23 down, and I saw when he was killed. I was behind him.

24 He couldn't get up because of the beating. I don't know

25 how to explain. He was a fat man. He couldn't get up.

1 His name was Drago Kuljanin and he was killed there. So

2 when we got to the vehicle, I know that I left this

3 place in the last vehicle. It was a tonne truck. I

4 tried to wipe the blood away from my eyes, but the guard

5 would not let me and he beat me. So we reached Konjic.

6 They took us to Musala sports hall.

7 Q. Excuse me a moment, Mr Kuljanin. So you reached Konjic

8 in a truck you said. How many prisoners were together

9 with you in that same truck?

10 A. Maybe about 15, I think. It was a smaller truck and the

11 others had left before. I remember clearly that I was

12 in the last vehicle.

13 Q. How do you know that you were in the last vehicle?

14 A. I know because there were no other vehicles behind us

15 but I was really very severely beaten en route from

16 Bradina to that tunnel and many other people were beaten

17 too, so I couldn't get on, and that caused more beating,

18 so that somebody may even have helped me to get on. So

19 when we came to Konjic they, as I said, brought us to

20 the sports hall, and when we got off the trucks, we were

21 beaten again.

22 Q. Do you mean the sports hall, Musala?

23 A. Yes, I do.

24 Q. How many trucks did transport other prisoners before

25 your truck left? Do you know that?

1 A. I don't know that. I couldn't tell you. I don't know

2 how many trucks there were.

3 Q. Still do you have specific knowledge of other trucks

4 having left before yours? How do you know that?

5 A. I know. I learned later from the other people when we

6 all got together in Celebici. I heard from them that

7 there were some people in the trucks that were at the

8 head of the column, that they never went to the sports

9 hall in Musala, but were transferred to Celebici

10 directly. I don't know what the reason was for our

11 transportation there. Maybe because we were to be

12 beaten. Maybe there was beating there. Maybe we had to

13 wait until everything down there was ready for us. I

14 don't know. My idea is that maybe because of our large

15 numbers they wouldn't have been able to do everything

16 that they had in mind.

17 Q. Mr Kuljanin, how long did you stop in Musala? How long

18 did you stay there?

19 A. I couldn't give you an exact answer, but I think an

20 hour, maybe a bit more, approximately, and I can tell

21 you that when we got off the trucks, as we entered the

22 corridor, I noticed a dead body lying there and blood.

23 There was no light. I learned later that this was the

24 body of Petko Mrkajic, Petko. Fortunately or

25 unfortunately I was in a unit or a group right at the

1 beginning which was in charge of water, and I had the

2 chance to have a drink of water several times, and to

3 wipe my eyes and I was able to regain consciousness.

4 Then later when we spent some time there we were once

5 again called to get out.

6 Q. You mean by "there" where?

7 A. Outside the sports hall, near the entrance. There was a

8 vehicle there. It was no longer the tonne truck in

9 which I had been transported from the tunnel in Bradina

10 to Konjic. It was a van, some kind of a van.

11 Q. Mr Kuljanin, after staying about one hour in Musala

12 sports hall where were you brought?

13 A. We were again taken out and put on a van, and we

14 travelled on. I didn't know where we were. I didn't

15 have any ideas where they were taking us. I thought

16 that they would take us to some kind of a gorge or to

17 the Jablanica lake to be killed or some holes. I didn't

18 know the Celebici area. I didn't know what was waiting

19 for us there, what was waiting for the people who were

20 taken there. So when we reached Celebici again I didn't

21 know that place, because I was not in a position to know

22 anything about the place. This was a military

23 installation. So I didn't know anything about the

24 place.

25 Q. Mr Kuljanin, can you say approximately at what time did

1 you arrive at Celebici?

2 A. It was not during the day. It was at night. I think it

3 was after midnight. It was already very dark when we

4 set off from Bradina, and then we had to go to Konjic,

5 and then we waited there and travelled to Celebici. So

6 I think it was after midnight. I don't know the exact

7 time.

8 Q. So do you mean the night between 26th and 27th May?

9 A. Yes, to 27th May.

10 Q. Were you transported to Celebici in the same truck in

11 which you arrived at Musala?

12 JUDGE JAN: No, it was a van.

13 MR TURONE: Van, I am sorry?

14 A. No. The first one was a tonne truck en route to Konjic

15 and from Konjic it was a van. It was a closed-type

16 vehicle.

17 Q. How many prisoners were together with you in this van,

18 which transported you to Celebici?

19 A. I think there were about eight or nine of us, as far as

20 I can remember. I was a bit confused, but that's what I

21 think. When we reached Celebici, we were still inside

22 the van, but we could hear the screams and moans next to

23 a wall. People were beaten there, beaten very

24 severely. Then they were thrown into the tunnel Number

25 9. That's what they called it.

1 Q. Mr Kuljanin, let me ask you: where were these people

2 moaning from?

3 A. Well, the van -- our van had already arrived there to

4 that place in Celebici, and we could hear the moans from

5 the outside, and then our turn came. The van was opened

6 and we were told to get out.

7 Q. Mr Kuljanin, how do you know that the other trucks or

8 vans taking other prisoners to Celebici did not stop in

9 Musala?

10 A. Because I heard from the people who were in that group,

11 because later on we somehow communicated with each other

12 in one way or another. Some people from one group would

13 say: "No, we did not go to Konjic", and those who did go

14 to Konjic, we knew about them.

15 Q. Were these people whose moaning you heard at the arrival

16 of your van people from Bradina too?

17 A. Yes. All the people there at the time were from Bradina

18 but I don't know how many vehicles, how many trucks

19 there were, but all of them were there. Later on, the

20 next day, the day after that, when we managed to see

21 each other, we saw that all of us from Bradina were

22 there, although it wasn't very easy to see, but we did

23 learn that, and then, when we were transferred from the

24 Number 9 to number 6, we realised that all of us who

25 were driven from Bradina on the night of 26th, that we

1 were all there.

2 I heard those screams and moans. As I got off, I

3 couldn't get off very easily, so I slid down from the

4 van, and I fell down, and by accident I found -- I saw

5 that there was something shiny, a shiny metal object.

6 It was a nail.

7 Q. Where was this nail, Mr Kuljanin?

8 A. It was lying on the ground. Maybe it fell off one of

9 the vehicles or maybe it was just there. At any rate I

10 found it, and I thought that I should somehow commit

11 suicide. I took this nail and my head was cut in

12 several places, and I placed the nail inside my wound

13 and I tried to push it inside my head in order to commit

14 suicide, but I didn't manage to do so. As I lay down on

15 the ground, somebody hit me in the back, and he noticed

16 this and he said: "Look what he's been trying to do",

17 and I thought that maybe somebody would hit that nail

18 and thus ease my suffering for ever, but nobody did

19 that, and I just heard that somebody said: "Look what

20 this guy tried to do."

21 So they hit me several times, two or three times,

22 and they pulled me inside the building Number 9, the

23 tunnel. This concludes the events of that night as far

24 as I know.

25 Q. Mr Kuljanin, can you say approximately the total number

1 of prisoners from Bradina who were transported to

2 Celebici that night with those trucks or vans?

3 A. Approximately 80-100. I don't know exactly, but I think

4 maybe 80-100. It was a long column. I saw that when we

5 were lined up there in Bradina.

6 Q. You mean -- lined up in Bradina you said?

7 A. Yes, in Bradina when we were lined up standing one

8 behind the other.

9 Q. Arriving at Celebici, where exactly inside the camp did

10 this beating you have been talking about happen?

11 A. The worst beating was from Bradina to the tunnel. This

12 was the hardest time for me, because this was when I

13 fell down from the blows and got up again. All the

14 beatings were really incredible, the objects that they

15 used, and it seemed to me as if they had prepared for

16 that. They had all kinds of objects that they used to

17 beat us and the worst beating that I took was when I was

18 hit with a rifle barrel in my left side and I thought

19 that I had been run through. I fell down and I somehow

20 managed to get up again.

21 Q. Excuse me, Mr Kuljanin. My question -- I understand

22 that. My question was concerning the moment when you

23 arrived at Celebici, right after you got out of your

24 truck, and you found that nail. You told us that you

25 saw people there and there was some beating there too,

1 and my question was: where exactly inside the camp did

2 that happen right after your arrival there?

3 A. It was in the camp compound next to a wall, next to a

4 concrete wall. People were lined up against that wall

5 with their hands up, and then that night there was again

6 this beating. As I told you, my group, we were still in

7 the van, and when we heard the moans of those ahead of

8 us, when they were beaten, and then our turn came.

9 Q. How far was that wall from the entrance of the camp?

10 A. I don't know exactly, but it's not very far, maybe -- I

11 don't know the exact distance.

12 Q. All right?

13 A. But the wall itself is quite long, and it abuts the

14 building Number 9. I don't know if it goes all the way

15 down to the entrance gate.

16 Q. Mr Kuljanin, in the very moment when you got out of your

17 van, can you say, approximately how many prisoners did

18 you say were already lined up against the wall?

19 A. There was a group of maybe fifteen of them, but it was

20 -- people were going there group by group, probably as

21 vehicles came in and unloaded one group, then they

22 brought in another group. This is the way I figured it

23 out.

24 Q. You say that these people were from Bradina too; is that

25 correct?

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Did you recognise anybody in that group you saw lined up

3 against the wall right in the very moment when you got

4 out of your van?

5 A. No. I didn't really feel like looking. If I was in any

6 condition to see, I would be able to recognise them. My

7 only thought was to end my suffering, to commit

8 suicide. I saw those people. They were all facing the

9 wall. Some fell down and then got up again. I don't

10 know what had happened to them, but I do know that

11 horrible things happened to them.

12 Q. Going back to the nail you drove into your head --

13 JUDGE JAN: Attempted to drive.

14 MR TURONE: Did you attempt to drive this nail into your

15 head or did you actually drive that into your head?

16 A. My intention was to do that. Maybe if I had had some

17 kind of an object, maybe a stone, I think I maybe would

18 have, but I could only -- I only tried to do that with

19 my hand and I failed. I would have done that.

20 Q. Can you say how long was this nail?

21 A. As far as I can remember it wasn't very long. It was a

22 small nail. It's classified as 6 or 7. It wasn't very

23 long.

24 Q. Mr Kuljanin, approximately how long were you personally

25 beaten in this situation at the wall inside the camp?

1 A. Well, I was not really beaten, because I was already

2 unable to stand. Maybe they hit me three times.

3 Somebody hit me three times, and then some people pulled

4 me inside. I was not beaten really severely there. My

5 most severe beating was en route from Bradina to the

6 tunnel and when we were getting on the vehicle. This is

7 where I was beaten very badly, and again when we got off

8 in Konjic, and when we got inside the corridor in the

9 sports hall. This is where I was beaten.

10 Again let me remind you, if it hadn't been for the

11 water and I think that the other people around me, they

12 helped me, and they wiped my face and rubbed my neck,

13 and I think it helped me. Then when I was taken inside

14 Number 9, in the morning a man showed up at the door. I

15 was very close, because I was the last one in the group

16 to enter, so I was close to the door.

17 The man showed up. It wasn't daylight yet, and he

18 shone a flashlight over us, and he cursed our mothers,

19 and he said -- he cursed and he said: "Who did this to

20 these people? Who beat and tortured them so badly?" I

21 didn't know anyone. I didn't know who he was.

22 Then he called out the doctor, Relja Mrkajic. He

23 told him to get out. He called Simo Zelenovic and I

24 think Simo's brother. I don't recall his name, and they

25 got out. They didn't go back. I asked for some water

1 and Simo brought me some water. So I had a good drink

2 of water and I got down on the concrete, and it wasn't

3 actually very bad to lie down on the concrete. I lay

4 down on my left side, which was hurting very badly, and

5 after a while I noticed that the day was breaking, that

6 it was dawn.

7 Then some other man came. Again I don't know who

8 he was. I didn't know anyone. He looked at us. He

9 told some of us to get out. He pointed a finger at me,

10 because I was again covered in blood. He told us to go

11 somewhere for our wounds to be bandaged or something

12 like that. I don't know. This is what happened. We

13 went there, but it wasn't really very much. I just

14 wanted -- I just asked them to allow me to wipe my

15 eyes. They didn't let me. There were some nurses there

16 and they -- I had two cuts, two large cuts on my head

17 and they put some plasters, band aids, on it, and they

18 took us back to the tunnel Number 9.

19 Q. Mr Kuljanin, do you have any specific direct knowledge

20 of the physical consequences which any other prisoner

21 suffered after that particular beating at the wall on

22 the night of your arrival?

23 A. I think that very few of us didn't have any

24 consequences. I think that everybody had some

25 consequences, but some had more serious and some had

1 less serious. Those of us who had been hit on the head,

2 it was the easiest to notice those injuries. If you had

3 injuries on other parts of the body, it wasn't so

4 noticeable. I know how it was with me. My left side

5 was completely black because of the blows that I

6 sustained, but you couldn't -- the bruises, they lasted

7 for a month maybe.

8 Q. Can you mention the name of any other person from that

9 group about whom you might have seen some visible

10 bruises or some consequences anyway?

11 A. Yes, I can. I remember Vukasin Mrkajic very well. Both

12 his eyes were shut the morning when we were called out.

13 That man could not see. His eyes were both shut from

14 the blows. I remember him the best, but there were many

15 others.

16 Q. Was Vukasin Mrkajic in the same van with you arriving at

17 Celebici?

18 A. No. He must have been up front. I did not see him

19 until the next day when I saw him, when I noticed him.

20 Q. Did you ever find out when the first trucks or vans

21 arrived to Celebici from Bradina that evening?

22 A. The exact time I would not be able to tell, but if I

23 take into account the stops, and we did stop my vehicle,

24 the vehicle where I was in -- I am sorry -- we stopped a

25 little bit longer up there at that tunnel after we had

1 climbed in, and somehow the engine wouldn't start. So

2 the other vehicles had put in some distance between us.

3 So I think it would have been, plus with the stoppage in

4 Konjic, maybe two hours. At least an hour and a half;

5 maybe more.

6 Q. Can you say how far tunnel 9 was from the wall where the

7 beating took place?

8 A. It wasn't far. It was almost next to the wall, as far

9 as I can recall. It was close, close to the wall, not

10 far to that tunnel.

11 Q. Mr Kuljanin, you see a kind of a model in front of you.

12 Do you recognise what this model represents? This big

13 model in front of you, do you see it? You can stand up

14 and look in front of you. Do you see anything there in

15 front of you? Do you have an idea of what this model is

16 representing?

17 A. I guess that is the Celebici military installation which

18 was then turned into the camp. That should be it.

19 Q. May I ask the usher to provide the witness with

20 something to point out the details in this model, and if

21 you are comfortable, Mr Kuljanin, you can move around,

22 because I would like you to -- if you are in a position

23 to do that, could you indicate on that model the places

24 you have been talking about so far, I mean the entrance,

25 the wall and what you called tunnel Number 9. Could you

1 provide the witness with any microphone, please?

2 A. This should be the gate here. (Indicating). Speak in

3 there?

4 That is the entrance and then this was -- this

5 building was the building and I think this must have

6 been the command of the military at the time.

7 (Indicating). This is what was called the number 22.

8 This is what it should be. This was also some building

9 that was used for other purposes.

10 Q. What about the wall you have been talking about and

11 tunnel 9?

12 A. Up here, this is where it should be. (Indicating).

13 This should be Number 9, I think, as far as I can

14 understand, because I was not there much. That should

15 be the wall there around Number 9. As far as I could

16 recall, this is how it should look. The gate, but I

17 don't recall this. (Indicating).

18 Q. All right. Thank you, Mr Kuljanin. Mr Kuljanin, when

19 you entered tunnel 9, approximately how many prisoners

20 were there?

21 A. All those who were brought in that night were put there,

22 were put there. We were pretty much packed. I remember

23 well that tunnel even though I was not there very long.

24 It had a sort of a drop. It went downhill. I remember

25 the best that after two or three days people had to

1 relieve themselves and some of them had to defecate and

2 they were not able to be taken anywhere. Then everybody

3 went to urinate down at the bottom, and after a while it

4 started smelling.

5 They rarely open up the doors, only when they

6 needed to. There was some small bar or some grates and

7 so people had trouble with the stench, and then I also

8 noticed that people found relief on concrete because of

9 the beatings that they received, because it was cold.

10 Q. Mr Kuljanin, was there any light inside the tunnel?

11 A. No, there was no light. If somebody would come, they

12 would point the flashlight, and that was the only light.

13 Q. Do you mean the darkness was complete, or could you see

14 something inside the tunnel?

15 A. Almost total darkness. You can't see almost anything

16 and especially at night. During day-time you could see

17 maybe a little bit but at night-time the dark was

18 absolute.

19 Q. Were you in a position during day-time with the coarse

20 light inside to see the traces of the bruises on other

21 people you have been talking about?

22 MS McMURREY: Your Honour, I am going to object to the

23 leading form of the question. He has not talked about

24 bruises on anybody but himself. He is putting words in

25 the witness' mouth.

1 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Yes.

2 MR TURONE: Sorry, I thought he did. Anyway were those

3 people inside the tunnel familiar to you?

4 A. Well, almost all of them. However, I could not -- they

5 were not very visible to me. We had no possibility of

6 moving around much. It was very narrow from one end to

7 the other, and, beaten as we were with injuries, people

8 moved only if they had to, if they had to go down to the

9 bottom --

10 Q. Mr Kuljanin, how can you say "how beaten we were"? How

11 could you see that inside the tunnel?

12 A. I knew -- I felt from as much as I was able to walk and

13 to move, and my head was cut and my left side hurt. I

14 had problems breathing and I had problems turning,

15 turning over. So I was able to notice, and then I --

16 when I went back to Musala and Konjic I knew more, but

17 that is coming.

18 Then I also had a lacerated lip, and I asked if

19 they could treat it, but nobody did.

20 Q. Mr Kuljanin, could you find out in that first night in

21 which conditions, in which physical conditions were the

22 other people inside the tunnel?

23 MS McMURREY: Your Honour, I believe that question has been

24 asked and answered.

25 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: He could not see them.

1 MR TURONE: Yes. He could not see, so --

2 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: How would he know what physical

3 condition they were?

4 MR TURONE: But he has been talking about the conditions of

5 people inside. So I would like to ask him how could he

6 find out anything about these conditions?

7 MS McMURREY: Your Honour, the only condition he has talked

8 about is his own.

9 JUDGE JAN: Well, he heard moans of the others.

10 MS McMURREY: Yes, he did.

11 JUDGE JAN: Crying. There were some people injured

12 probably. So the learned counsel is trying to find out

13 if he was in a position to see their injuries.

14 MS McMURREY: As far as seeing, I believe the question was

15 asked and answered.

16 JUDGE JAN: The witness has said about people moaning

17 there, so you can ask.

18 MR BRACKOVIC (in interpretation): Your Honours, I have an

19 objection to interpretation. When he talked about a

20 lacerated lip, he said that he wanted it cut off, and

21 the interpretation said to have it treated, so I would

22 like the interpretation reviewed later.

23 JUDGE JAN: The treatment has not yet come.

24 MR TURONE: I beg your pardon.

25 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Did you understand the objection?

1 MR TURONE: I did not actually. I am sorry.

2 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: It is one of interpretation.

3 A. I can prove that. I can prove that right away from

4 inside of my upper lip.

5 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Now what Mr Brackovic was complaining

6 of was that the request of the witness was that the lip

7 should be cut off. Is that what he said, not that it

8 should be treated. It should be cut off?

9 A. The inside --

10 MR BRACKOVIC (in interpretation): I asked that the

11 interpretation be compared to the transcript. I will

12 follow it very carefully?

13 A. Can I say --

14 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Please let the interpretation be

15 properly corrected. Repeat your objection so it can be

16 interpreted, so that it will appear in the transcript.

17 MR BRACKOVIC (in interpretation): Your Honours, when the

18 witness said he had a lacerated lip which bothered him

19 he said that he asked for it to be cut off, but it was

20 interpreted in another way. Instead of saying "cut

21 off", the expression "treat" was used, and I think it's

22 not a proper interpretation of what the witness said.

23 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Thank you very much. I think this is

24 quite appropriate. Actually his evidence was indicating

25 the stress in which he was, and not the interpretation.

1 Mr Turone, you can carry on.

2 MR TURONE: So, Mr Kuljanin, when you entered the tunnel

3 and found other people there, you were in a condition to

4 see, take knowledge of, how did they feel physically?

5 A. Not well at all. People said to one another "it hurts",

6 but we were all packed and everybody was using these

7 words, that they were in pain, that they were beaten

8 up. Some people had fractures, but can I say something

9 about this lip?

10 Q. Of course you can.

11 A. I apologise. My lip was not lacerated so that I asked

12 for the lip to be cut off. The inside was injured and

13 it was from the inside, so that was bothering me, and

14 that's what I had in mind, not that my lip be cut off,

15 and there's still a scar there. So I had a laceration

16 on the inside and it bothered me. That's what I had in

17 mind. That's what I talked about.

18 Q. Okay. Can you describe briefly the physical

19 characteristics of tunnel 9 inside?

20 A. I don't know exactly the length. I know that it was

21 narrow, maybe 1.5 metres in width, and it was completely

22 dark, and in concrete. I don't know what its military

23 purposes were. So that it was really uncomfortable,

24 especially the stench and taste and whatever -- mostly

25 the stench for what people had to use it for.

1 Q. Did you ever reach the bottom of this tunnel?

2 A. As far as I recall I had to go to urinate about twice,

3 and there already there was a puddle that was created

4 from people who were going there to relieve themselves,

5 so that there was a terrible stench there. I had to go

6 there a couple of times. We often asked to be taken

7 out, but they would not allow that. So then we had to

8 go down all the way to the gate, to the exit, so that

9 people were forced. So then we were stepping on one

10 another and they said: "Don't step on my foot", or

11 something. So you did it only if you really had to.

12 Q. Can you say approximately how long did you stay in

13 tunnel 9?

14 A. I can. It wasn't that long. Some five days, I think I

15 was there, four or five days.

16 Q. Did the number of prisoners in Number 9 change in those

17 days?

18 A. Yes. Yes. A group arrived and then we were transferred

19 to number 6. As far as I know, all of us from Number 9

20 moved to number 6 and the group which arrived was put in

21 Number 9.

22 Q. Excuse me, Mr Kuljanin,. My question was not this one.

23 I mean: in those days during which you stayed in tunnel

24 9, did the number of prisoners change? Did anybody go

25 or come?

1 A. I don't recall that anybody came, only what I mentioned,

2 that this man who took out three people that same

3 morning, 27th, the doctor and Zelenovic, Simo, I think.

4 Q. Did you stay in a particular place inside tunnel 9?

5 A. As we were put there, I was near the door because I was

6 one of the last in, so I was closer to the entrance than

7 to the middle or the end.

8 Q. Okay. Can you say something about supplies of food and

9 drinking water during those days in Number 9?

10 A. The following day I don't know if anybody was giving us

11 anything, but we asked for water, so we received some

12 water, and there was a guard who came with some of the

13 younger people, and he had a vessel of something. Then

14 they asked for more water, and they asked that the water

15 be passed, but I don't know if we got any food the first

16 day. As far as I know, nobody really mentioned any

17 hunger, being hungry or needing food.

18 Q. Maybe I did not get you quite well. I am talking not

19 only of the first day in the tunnel, but the whole

20 stay. What about food and drinking water during the

21 whole stay inside tunnel 9?

22 JUDGE JAN: In tunnel 9?

23 A. It was difficult there. You couldn't go out. If we

24 received anything it had to be passed on, and it was a

25 narrow space. So it was difficult. Somebody would

1 receive some small piece of bread. You couldn't pass,

2 you couldn't -- I don't know, but there was not much of

3 that. Later maybe food was being given but nothing

4 cooked at that time.

5 Q. Where did you sleep during the stay inside tunnel 9?

6 A. As far as I can remember, I was -- as you came in, I was

7 to the left, maybe five or six metres away from the

8 door. Later I can also say that those younger ones, who

9 could move a bit more, they would move closer to the

10 door, so that they would have more air and less of the

11 stench that was there.

12 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Actually the question was: where did

13 you sleep?

14 A. Sleep? I don't know. We just sat there and then there

15 was no sleep. If you got a bit quiet, if you get some

16 rest, you close your eyes a bit, but there was no

17 sleeping. I don't know how to answer that question. We

18 were in the same position day and night in there.

19 MR TURONE: Mr Kuljanin, did anybody take your valuables

20 from prisoners after their arrest or after their

21 arriving at Celebici?

22 A. Yes. One evening, the third or the fourth day maybe,

23 some people came, opened the door, and passed -- it was

24 night, so as far as I could see it was like a soldier's

25 helmet, and one person there was told, who was the

1 person who was next to the door, whoever had something

2 of any value, gold or watches, or something -- I

3 apologise -- when it came to that point, there was very

4 little that people had on them, because it had been

5 taken away before, but that night whatever was left

6 over, and it was -- people said that when they searched

7 later, if they found something that these people will be

8 responsible for it, that they would have to answer for

9 that.

10 Then this helmet was passed down the tunnel, and

11 by chance I had a watch in a pocket. Had it been on my

12 wrist, I probably would have taken it off. So I don't

13 know how it -- I had it left on me. So my understanding

14 was well, what do I know? So I gave it and it was

15 passed around. I don't know how much was in there. It

16 was night. I could hear when people were dropping

17 something in it. So that's as much as I know.

18 Q. Do you know who were these people who came --

19 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: I think this is a convenient point to

20 stop now. It is 5.30. We shall continue with this

21 witness tomorrow morning --

22 MR TURONE: Okay, your Honour.

23 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: -- at 10 o'clock.

24 (5.30 pm)

25 (Hearing adjourned until 10.00 tomorrow morning)

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