Witnesses: Mirko Kuljanin & Witness F
align Page 1193
1 Wednesday, 26th March 1997
2 (10.00 am)
3 Motion for Decision on Presentation of Evidence
4 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Good morning, ladies and gentlemen. I
5 think this morning we prefer to start with what counsel
6 has suggested, because I have before me, and all my
7 brother judges have, a motion for decision on
8 presentation of evidence. I believe the prosecution
9 also has it. It calls for an interpretation of Rule 85
10 affecting cross-examination and the rights of the
11 defence with respect to cross-examination.
12 I fear that if we ignore this and carry on without
13 disposing of it, it might create more difficulties,
14 especially since a very serious allegation has been made
15 in the motion by counsel that we are behaving
16 differently from Trial Chamber 1 and that this is
17 causing prejudice to the defence.
18 Actually I did not want to bother with that
19 aspect, because there has been a manifest error in
20 knowing in which Trial Chamber we are sitting. Trial
21 Chamber 1 has not come to any decision on it. We are
22 part of Trial Chamber 2. I think it is better to
23 correct that first time.
24 I do not know whether the prosecution is prepared
25 to respond to this.
1 MS McHENRY: Your Honour, we did receive it I believe
2 yesterday and have prepared a response, which is being
3 typed now. I can briefly summarise our response if your
4 Honours wish, or we would be able to file a response
6 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: As I have stated, it is better we put
7 it out of the way before another cross-examination
8 arises, because it will complicate matters if we are
9 found to be wrong in what we are doing.
10 MS McHENRY: In that case, your Honour, let me briefly -- I
11 do not even have a copy of the draft -- our draft
12 response or the motion of the accused at the present
13 time, but I can briefly tell you that our position is
14 that there is no conflict between any of the Trial
15 Chambers, that there is nothing in the rules --
16 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: It is all right. When you are ready,
17 we will hear your response and you can file your written
18 response. You can make your response later. The
19 response will be filed when it is typed.
20 MS McHENRY: Would you like to hear --
21 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: We would like to hear it right now,
23 Reply by the Prosecution
24 MS McHENRY: Briefly our response is that there is no
25 conflict between the Trial Chambers, that there is
1 nothing in the rules which requires that there be
2 re-cross-examination. Indeed, the rules seem to
3 contemplate there will not be re-cross-examination, but
4 all in all it is a matter for the discretion of the
5 Trial Chamber, depending on the circumstances. It may
6 have been that because of the proceedings in the Tadic
7 trial and because of the manner in which
8 cross-examination was conducted that the Trial Chamber
9 thought it would not create problems to allow limited
10 re-cross, and, fact, this Chamber may in certain
11 circumstances, in particular where unexpectedly some new
12 issue is raised during re-direct, the Trial Chamber
13 might choose to do such a thing, but that in general it
14 should be a very rare and exceptional situation, that
15 thus far in this Chamber there has been no need for such
17 The issues brought up in re-direct -- often there
18 has not been any re-direct. In the few occasions where
19 there was, it was very limited with a limited purpose.
20 This Chamber has an obligation to ensure that
21 proceedings are conducted in a fair and expeditious
22 manner. This Chamber has been very, very free in giving
23 defence counsel rein in cross-examination, and under
24 these circumstances the Trial Chamber has appropriately
25 used its discretion to not allow it. Obviously there
1 may be rare situations in the future where the Chamber
2 may decide to allow it.
3 I would just also point out that, for instance,
4 the defendant Landzo, who makes this argument,
5 previously had filed a Bill of Exceptions with respect
6 to one of the first -- I believe one of the expert
7 witnesses for the model and the photographs, and the
8 defence counsel had filed a Bill of Exceptions, stating
9 forth numerous questions that the defence of Esad Landzo
10 would have asked if they had been allowed re-cross.
11 I think looking at those questions makes it very clear
12 that those questions were entirely inappropriate to be
13 raised in re-cross-examination, that to the extent the
14 questions were relevant at all, they should have been
15 raised in cross-examination, and there was absolutely
16 nothing in the re-direct which would have made such
17 questions even proper.
18 So, in sum, our position is there is no conflict
19 among the Trial Chambers. It is up to the discretion of
20 the Trial Chamber. In these circumstances, the Trial
21 Chamber has appropriately used its discretion to not
22 permit it, so that we may have a fair and expeditious
23 trial. Thank you.
24 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Thank you very much. Can we hear you
25 now, Ms McMurrey?
1 Reply by Ms McMurrey
2 MS McMURREY: Yes, your Honour. If you will just allow me
3 to respond, of course I think my motion is fairly
4 clear. Ms McHenry and the prosecution alleges that
5 there is no conflict between the two Trial Chambers, and
6 I did not spend days looking through the Tadic record.
7 I just picked out two, the first two that came up
8 quickly, and I believe that it is evident from the Tadic
9 record that there is a conflict. Direct examination,
10 cross, re-direct, re-cross were allowed many times in
11 that case, and in this case we have tried to have
12 re-cross, as was allowed in Tadic, and I have been
13 denied re-cross, as have the other defence attorneys.
14 I did make a Bill of Exceptions --
15 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Excuse me. I think you have still not
16 understood your initial error, that the Tadic Trial
17 Chamber is not different from this one. You still have
18 not understood that.
19 MS McMURREY: I am sorry. Would you clear that up?
20 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: That is not Trial Chamber 1.
21 MS McMURREY: Then the judges' decisions within each trial
22 -- I do not know what to call it.
23 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: I just want to correct that error. I
24 do not want to correct the other errors. There are so
25 many of them. I just want to correct it.
1 MS McMURREY: I hope the court corrects me if I use the
2 wrong nomenclature.
3 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: It is not a training school. Go about
4 your argument.
5 MS McMURREY: The decisions in the first trial are clearly
6 different from the decisions in the second trial on the
7 presentation of evidence. Under Rule 85B the rule says
9 "Examination-in-chief is allowed.
10 Cross-examination and re-examination shall be allowed in
11 each case."
12 Now my interpretation of that is that "in each
13 case" means the defence case and the prosecution case,
14 and that is where I think it does allow for re-cross or
15 "rejoinder", as it calls it, as the rule allows, once
16 they are -- if the prosecution decides to re-direct,
17 then we have a right to re-cross, and vice versa. When
18 we are presenting our evidence in the defence case, if
19 we decide to re-direct, then the prosecution has a right
20 to re-cross.
21 I believe that is explained, of course subject to
22 interpretation, and each one of the panels of judges of
23 course has the discretion to decide their own rules, but
24 since there is a discrepancy now, and when the
25 presentation of evidence is allowed re-cross in one
1 trial and it does not allow re-cross in the other, then
2 I believe it does create a prejudice for the people
3 trying the case in the next Trial Chamber or group of
4 judges. I do not know what to call it.
5 As such, there just needs to be a decision made,
6 so that there is consistency between each trial as we go
7 along. I am not saying that the other court was right,
8 and I am not saying that this court is right, but I
9 noticed ahead of time that that was the rule of the
10 first trial, and that is why I assumed it was going to
11 be the rule of the second trial.
12 If the court makes a decision there is going to be
13 no rejoinder, I will simply make a Bill of Exception for
14 each witness to preserve error for the Appeals Court,
15 but I agree with Ms McHenry that re-cross-examination is
16 limited to the scope of re-direct, and it narrows
17 everything down until, hopefully, everybody has answered
18 all their questions.
19 Now, because we were denied re-cross on certain
20 witnesses, we have a right to recall that witness in our
21 defence -- when we present our defence case in chief. I
22 think, so that we do not have to bring witnesses back
23 from Bosnia or the United States or wherever they might
24 be, it would be more expeditious and economical just to
25 let us finish with that witness while he is here. Let
1 us just go all the way with any questions we might have,
2 and then we have no reason to recall that witness later
4 I am asking the court just for a decision.
5 Whatever your decision, the defence will abide by it,
6 but there is a difference between the procedures in the
7 two trials. I would just like clarification for myself
8 as to which way we are going to proceed. Thank you very
10 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: I think you refer to other judicial
11 jurisdictions, like the United States, Canada,
12 Scotland. You are sure this practice exists there as a
13 general rule?
14 MS McMURREY: Your Honour, I know from the United States --
15 I have tried at least 50 criminal trials -- I know we
16 are allowed re-cross and re-direct until we finish with
17 the witness. I was also advised that Australia has the
18 same rules.
19 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Is that so?
20 MS McMURREY: I believe there are a lot of other common law
21 countries that have the same proceedings.
22 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: I come from a common law country.
23 MS McMURREY: You could ask Mr O'Sullivan -- he comes from
24 Canada -- and I am speaking from my experience in the
25 United States.
1 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: And Scotland too?
2 MS McMURREY: That is what I was told by Mr Greaves, who
3 comes from the United Kingdom.
4 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: I do not know.
5 MS McMURREY: If you ask Ms McHenry, who comes from the
6 United States, she will agree that is allowed.
7 MS McHENRY: I am not sure I can agree. I have tried many
8 trials, but I have been here so long I cannot remember.
9 My memory is it is up to the discretion of the Trial
10 Chamber and sometimes Trial Chambers determine it is not
12 The other thing I would say is I do not believe in
13 Tadic they had a specific rule in every case, nor do I
14 believe this Chamber has adopted a special rule. For
15 instance, I will point out that yesterday defence
16 counsel was allowed re-cross-examination. The issue is
17 not: is there going to be one rule? The issue is: what
18 are the circumstances as determined by the Trial Chamber
19 as to what is appropriate, and I do not believe that
20 there is anything else that can and should be done in
21 this Trial Chamber in limiting it in the cases where it
22 has -- has acted entirely appropriately.
23 MS McMURREY: Your Honour, I have nothing further. I was
24 very happy to be able to cross-examine yesterday on the
25 medical document that was brought up, and I believe that
1 that is the way the procedure should be when an issue is
2 raised, that we should have the ability to question that
3 witness further on a document. I am only asking for
4 what the court did allow yesterday as things proceed.
5 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Thank you very much.
6 MS McMURREY: Thank you.
7 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Any other contribution on this,
8 because it is one of general importance?
9 MR MORAN: Your Honour, just quickly, I think we have a
10 seam between the traditions in various common law
11 countries. As far as I know it is the universal
12 practice in the United States and every court I have
13 ever practised in to allow re-cross and re-direct,
14 narrowed down.
15 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: As a general rule or exceptionally?
16 MR MORAN: It is always allowed in every trial I have ever
18 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Even if there is no need for it.
19 MR MORAN: Your Honour, we have a rule --
20 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Even re-examination is based on
22 MR MORAN: That is correct.
23 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: You will have to bring yourself within
24 that re-examination for other cross-examination.
25 MR MORAN: That is correct.
1 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: How is it as a general rule?
2 MR MORAN: As a general rule if there is a relevant
3 question that is directly related to the re-direct
4 examination, it is universally allowed in any court I
5 have practised in in the United States. When Mr Greaves
6 told me earlier this week that it was not the practice
7 in England and Wales I did not know that.
8 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Definitely not. I happened to be
9 called in England in 1961. Quite frankly their practice
10 is never so.
11 MR MORAN: I agree when Mr Greaves told me there was a
12 different rule in England and Wales, I did not know
13 that. I have checked with Professor O'Sullivan this
14 morning, and he tells me that in Canada typically the
15 prosecutor does not object to a re-cross-examination,
16 for what that is worth. It is always a narrow
17 procedure, your Honour. It is not a wide open
18 re-cross-examination to ask anything you want to, and
19 the court, of course, maintains control. If it starts
20 getting far afield, the court is authorised to cut it
21 off, if it starts confusing the issues or if it is a
22 needless waste of time.
23 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Primarily we are bound by our own
24 rules, the way our rules have been formulated. That is
25 what we thought. Anything else?
1 MR GREAVES: I do not know whether you would feel any
2 offering from me would be helpful, but I confirm that
3 the General rule in England and Wales is, as your Honour
4 knows, examination-in-chief, cross-examination and
6 There is, however, a residual discretion in the
7 trial judge. For example, if counsel has sat down and
8 he has forgotten a crucial matter, it is perfectly open
9 to him to get up and say: "With your Honour's leave
10 might I just ask one further question?" It would be a
11 very hard prosecutor indeed who would say: "I object to
12 that course being followed."
13 Effectively there is a residual discretion in the
14 court to say: "Please by all means ask those further
15 questions." Of course then prosecuting counsel can
16 re-examine on those matters as well. I am not qualified
17 in Scotland, but I believe the system to be the same
18 here. I believe my learned friend Ms McMurrey
19 misunderstood what I was saying. I think that was more
20 to do with other characteristics of Scottish trial
21 procedures. I believe that in other jurisdictions, such
22 as New Zealand, Australia, they follow the English
23 system, and I suspect in your Honour's own jurisdiction
24 in Nigeria you follow that system as well. From my
25 point of view I prepare my case the English way.
1 MR OSTBERG: Your Honour, I am a lawyer from the civil
2 system in Sweden, as you may know. We have no firm
3 rules. The party who brings a witness examines that
4 witness in chief, and then there is a right to
5 examination from the other party, and then it is only a
6 question of relevance. The court will look upon a
7 question asked by the party not to make this a ping-pong
8 game or something like that. So it is always a question
9 decided upon by the court. If this question raised is
10 of any relevance, then the court will be prepared to
11 allow it. Thank you.
12 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Yes, Ms Residovic?
13 MS RESIDOVIC (in interpretation): Your Honours, I am
14 coming from a civil legal system, and in order to
15 contribute to the ruling as best I can, I will tell you
16 what the rules and procedures are in our legal system.
17 The rule 89 of the rules of this Tribunal clearly
18 points that if there are certain shortcomings in the
19 rules, that the rules of procedures will be followed
20 that are in accordance with the general rules and
21 statute of the Tribunal. According to the legal system
22 that is prevalent in the territory and now in the
23 countries of all systems that have come out of
24 Yugoslavia, there is examination and cross-examination,
25 and last questioning belongs to the defence.
1 Clearly the Trial Chamber implements the rules and
2 can decide whether one of the parties is abusing their
3 rights, and can rule that some questions may not be
4 asked, but the right of the accused to ask the last
5 questions is the basis of our legal system. Thank you.
6 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Is that all we have in terms of
7 contributions, because it is open? Let us get
8 everything before we decide what the interpretation of
9 these rules are and what is happening in terms of the
10 jurisdiction of the Tribunal in conformity with the
11 international practice. This is what we want to make
12 sure, because I do not want to conclude here and still
13 find there is still grudging elements. I just want to
14 know where we stand.
15 I was quite amazed by the attitude, the approach
16 adopted, but I know in litigation you can have
17 anything. It is not new. You do not have to be amazed
18 for that. It is common. There are certain
19 interpretations one finds commonplace. Okay.
20 In the absence of any more contributions we will
21 give a ruling in the afternoon. We will have to
22 consider it a bit.
23 MS McMURREY: Thank you very much for entertaining the
24 motion. I appreciate it. Thank you.
25 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Can we now have the witness for this
2 (Witness enters court)
3 A. (In interpretation): I wish you a good morning.
4 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Good morning. Can you remind him that
5 he is still on oath?
6 THE REGISTRAR: I am reminding you, sir, that you are still
7 under oath.
8 A. Very well.
9 MR MIRKO KULJANIN (continued)
10 Examined by MR TURONE (continued)
11 MR TURONE: Good morning, your Honours.
12 Mr Kuljanin, yesterday we were talking about your
13 stay in tunnel 9 when we interrupted our hearing. Let
14 us go back then to that time and particularly to right
15 after the very first night you spent in tunnel 9. Did
16 anything particular happen the following morning?
17 A. Nothing in particular except that they called us out.
18 Some had more injuries than others that were visible.
19 Those were mostly on the head, the face. Then we were
20 called out so that we would be given some help, that
21 would be bandaged and such. Nothing much beyond that.
22 Q. Where were you brought for this?
23 A. I went there towards the gate in that building there.
24 There were some people there. I think that they were
25 like nurses or something. They put some band aids on my
1 head. Then I was returned with several others.
2 Q. Were there many other persons from tunnel 9 brought
3 there for the same reason?
4 A. Not that many. The one Mrkajic, whose eyes were shut,
5 and I saw several more. There weren't that many. There
6 were some who had head injuries when I went there.
7 Q. Was that in the morning of May 27?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Were you brought back to the tunnel right after that?
10 A. Yes, I was returned there.
11 Q. Now, during your stay in tunnel 9 did you have any
12 occasion to see any mistreatment?
13 A. I had no occasion to see, but on that same day, 27th,
14 another group from Bradina was brought in. It was from
15 the area called the Upper Bradina. They were beaten
16 against that wall for five or six hours, and you could
17 hear the screams and crying. There were people who
18 suffered there. I was not there, but I found out about
19 it later. One person, Slobo Vicic, was killed there.
20 MS McMURREY: Your Honour, I am going to object. He said
21 he found out about it later. He was not testifying from
22 personal knowledge.
23 JUDGE JAN: No, he is not.
24 MS McMURREY: I object to no personal knowledge.
25 MR TURONE: Mr Kuljanin, you said you heard screamings and
1 noises coming from outside in that day, 27th May?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Can you say approximately what time was that?
4 A. Somewhere after 12, afternoon, and it went on until the
6 Q. So do you mean that that kind of screaming and noises
7 lasted during hours?
8 A. Several hours, five, six hours maybe.
9 Q. Can you describe in detail this kind of noises and
10 screaming you heard during that time, that day?
11 A. People were wailing and they were saying: "Don't!
12 Don't!"; mostly screams, and wailing and begging not to
13 be beaten.
14 Q. Did you hear that from inside tunnel 9?
15 A. Yes, only from within.
16 Q. In your opinion did these screamings and noises come
17 from an area close from the tunnel entrance or far away?
18 JUDGE JAN: Are you asking his opinion or asking for fact?
19 Are you asking for an opinion or asking for a fact? I
20 do not think he is an opinion witness.
21 MR TURONE: Since we are talking about what he has heard --
22 JUDGE JAN: Ask him from where the noises were coming. Why
23 are you asking "your opinion"? Ask him from where the
24 noises were coming.
25 MR TURONE: Do you know where the noises came from?
1 A. May I answer?
2 Q. Yes, please.
3 A. Those noises and screams were coming from outside, from
4 the direction of that wall, from that side, because none
5 of us could see. We only heard that. That lasted
6 several hours, five, six hours, depending on how long
7 some of them endured.
8 Q. Could you later have any occasion to find out what was
10 A. Later, yes, when we met with these people, when I was
11 transferred from Number 9 to Number 6, I found those
12 people there, and they were talking about it, that they
13 were standing there for a long time against the wall
14 with their hands up, that they were beating them, and we
15 heard all that is correct but we never saw that.
16 Q. So can you say who were these people?
17 MS McMURREY: Your Honour, that question has been asked and
19 MR TURONE: All right. So were these people brought into
20 tunnel 9?
21 A. No.
22 Q. Okay.
23 A. No, they were not brought to Number 9. They wouldn't
24 even fit there. Later when I was moved to Number 6, I
25 saw them there. They were taken straight to Number 6.
1 Q. Okay. Going back to your stay in tunnel 9, was any
2 prisoner called out by anybody while you were in tunnel
4 A. I don't remember that anybody was called out from Number
5 9 while I was there.
6 Q. Okay. Did you stay in any other building, in any other
7 place inside the Celebici camp besides tunnel 9?
8 A. Yes. After four or five days -- I don't know how
9 long -- I was no longer in the Number 9. I was
10 transferred then -- the whole group was transferred to
11 Number 6. When another group arrived, then all of us
12 went to Number 6, and this group was put into Number 9.
13 Q. Can you give a description of hanger 6?
14 A. I could, yes. It's a larger -- it's a larger tin
15 hangar. I think it was used for some kind of garage. I
16 don't know the exact length and width, but there was
17 quite a bit of space there. I think that among the
18 structures there I think that Number 6 was the biggest.
19 Q. Do you remember how many doors did hangar 6 have?
20 A. I think that there was a double door from the one side.
21 I don't know if they were on both ends and in the
23 Q. But how many doors were normally used?
24 A. One door at the end. At the entrance there was one door
25 there, and occasionally it would be opened when somebody
1 would come in and when people went out to have something
2 to eat. Several at a time they would eat. We had some
3 kind of vessel and a couple of spoons or bowls. When we
4 would finish, the others would come. So one door was
5 used for that, and when we asked to go out, sometimes
6 when we needed to relieve ourselves.
7 Q. Did hangar 6 have any window?
8 A. I don't recall it having windows, no. No, it did not
9 have windows.
10 Q. How was light or darkness inside hangar 6?
11 A. There was no light. In night-time it was dark and
12 day-time you could see, but there was no light, at least
13 while I was there. I was there for a short period, down
15 Q. Anyway, some daylight could come inside the hangar?
16 A. Yes, around the door there was a little bit, and maybe
17 that tin -- I don't know, so you could see during
18 day-time, so one could move about as much as one was
19 allowed to, for instance when you went out.
20 Q. Could you give any other more detailed description of
21 the physical characteristics of building 6?
22 A. As far as I can recall, there were pillars. It was --
23 they were metal, and then there was tin, and I think
24 that tin was also on the top and on the sides, and there
25 were three doors on both ends and in the middle. That's
1 how it looked. It already started being hot there from
2 that tin, because it was quite hot.
3 Q. Mr Kuljanin, how long did you stay in building Number 6,
4 in hangar 6?
5 A. I was not there a long time. I stayed there a short
6 time. I don't know if you call it luck or not. Maybe
7 luckily I think I stayed there four or five days and
8 then I was transferred to Musala in Konjic.
9 Q. Did every prisoner have a given position inside hangar
11 A. Yes, yes. I remember that I had a specific spot. It
12 was near the middle of the hangar, looking from the
13 entrance door to the left, that middle door, and I know
14 that that middle door sort of was interfering with my
15 sitting, so that's what I remember.
16 Q. Maybe to be more clear may I ask that the witness be
17 provided with Prosecution Exhibit number 1, page 7? Can
18 it be placed either on the computer or on the ELMO?
19 Maybe on the computer. Page 7 is map 5 right at the
20 beginning of the booklet.
21 A. Is this referring to Number 6?
22 Q. Yes. Do you recognise this map?
23 A. 6, okay.
24 Q. Could you point out your position inside hangar 6 on
25 this map?
1 A. Yes, I can.
2 JUDGE JAN: Actually there were four rows. Where are the
3 rows here? It does not show the rows?
4 A. This should be the entrance door, as far as I recall. I
5 was near the middle, and this is where the door was that
6 is marked. Somewhere around the middle is where I was.
7 MR TURONE: Could you describe, indicate on this map how
8 were the other prisoners distributed inside the hangar?
9 A. In a circle around. When we arrived there already was
10 no space to sit around, because people were sitting
11 there. So then we filled in the rest of that space, I
12 mean, next to the outer wall, and then a group started
13 forming that was sitting in the middle. They could
14 not -- we could not all fit against the wall to sit
15 there, so two rows down the middle were formed, and
16 people were sitting in the middle of the hangar.
17 Q. All right. For the record, I would like the witness to
18 be provided with a photocopy of this map so that a mark
19 might be done on this photocopy, pointing out exactly
20 for the record the position he had inside the hangar.
21 Could you mark with a pen the position in which you were
22 inside the hangar? Maybe we could put that on the ELMO
23 just to have everybody appreciate it. Okay. Now if
24 there is no objection, I would like this photocopy to be
25 entered as exhibit, I believe, number 82?
1 MS McMURREY: We have no objections, your Honour.
2 MR MORAN: No objections, your Honour.
3 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Any objections.
4 MR GREAVES: No objections.
5 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Then it is admitted.
6 MR TURONE: Mr Kuljanin, from your position, which you have
7 been pointing out, could you see outside of the door of
8 the hangar when the door was open?
9 A. I could not see anything, because I was on a site where
10 the door would open, and I couldn't see anything down
12 Q. Could you see how were the general conditions of life in
13 hangar Number 6? We start, for instance, with drinking
14 water. How was the drinking water supplied?
15 A. Water was the biggest problem, I guess, down there. I
16 don't know what they used. I think that there was a
17 bucket or some other tin vessel or something, and some
18 of the prisoners I guess went -- the ones who served
19 us -- so they would arrive, and those down there say:
20 "Well, we have not got anything", so they would have to
21 go again. So that was the problem. The problems were
22 with water. The ones who had had the drink would ask
23 again for some water, and you couldn't always get as
24 much as you wanted and as much as you needed.
25 Q. What about food in hangar 6?
1 A. As far as food is concerned, it would arrive in front of
2 the hangar. There was a crate there. They would --
3 there would be a pot or something, and then there were
4 two or three spoons, and those who would come out first,
5 it would be some kind of order that people were coming
6 out, and they would take a few spoonfuls and a bit of
7 bread, and then again the next with the same spoons, and
8 so it was going around until everybody's turn came. I
9 don't know if everybody would come to have their turn,
10 but there were just a few spoonfuls.
11 Q. Can you tell us something about the, let us say,
12 sleeping facilities? Where did you sleep? How did you
13 sleep inside the hangar?
14 A. In hangar Number 6 it was more comfortable, so that one
15 could stretch. So sleeping -- so if a person who fall
16 asleep -- there was a lot of opening of the door at
17 night, so everybody was anxious that -- there was a lot
18 of uncertainty as to what would happen. So that was
19 sort of sleep, but there was not much.
20 Q. Did you have any blankets or mattresses or something
21 like that?
22 A. No, we didn't have anything. I didn't have anything. I
23 just had a shirt and a pair of trousers, and there was
24 no access to any visitors, but also up there everything
25 had been burnt, so there was nothing to be brought to
1 us. I remember once some people had more blankets.
2 Somebody in the hangar tore up these blankets and had
3 given it to us, who had nothing.
4 Q. Mr Kuljanin, could you please tell the court how were
5 the toilet facilities during your stay in hangar 6?
6 A. There were no conditions. You had to ask a lot until
7 you were permitted to go out. They would let two or
8 three people out at a time. So the conditions were not
9 good, because they rarely accommodated people. There
10 were people who needed to go out more, and they didn't
11 dare insist very much, because of the beatings. It was
12 not simple to ask based on one's needs, but we did go
13 out, and I did not notice that anybody relieved
14 themselves inside, at least while I was there.
15 Q. Where was the place where you used to -- which you used
16 as a toilet while you were in hangar 6? Do you
18 A. Left of the entrance there was something dug up. It was
19 a ditch or something, and we went there to relieve
20 ourselves, around the corner of the hangar.
21 Q. Approximately how many prisoners were with you in hangar
22 6 in those days you remained there?
23 A. At that time somewhere around 200, at the time when I
24 was there. Later I heard that more people arrived, but
25 while I was there that was about the number.
1 Q. Did you see any of these prisoners with visible traces
2 of mistreatment?
3 A. How shall I put it? When I came to Number 6 a man
4 unknown to me was on a crate at the entrance on the
5 other side, and he lay motionless, and I did not know
6 him, and he stayed there. Then I also noticed that Pero
7 Mrkajic moved with difficulty, who also died there, but
8 later I had gone by then. People had their own pain.
9 Nobody was not beaten. Some of them were all right at
10 that time, but suffered later, and I could not say about
11 that, because I was not there.
12 Q. Mr Kuljanin, you saw Pero Mrkajic inside hangar 6?
13 A. Yes, I did.
14 Q. Is that a different Mrkajic, Pero, than the one you saw
15 in Musala?
16 A. Yes, it's a different one. He is an elderly man and the
17 one in Musala was a younger man. This is an elderly man
18 who owned an restaurant in Bradina. He was older than I
19 was. He died later, but at that time he had difficulty
21 Q. Was this Pero Mrkajic you saw in hangar 6 from Upper
22 Bradina or from Lower Bradina?
23 A. He was from Lower Bradina. He had a restaurant in the
24 centre. I don't know what to call it. It was the
25 centre of the village. There's always a centre in any
1 kind of settlement, and that's where he had his
2 restaurant and his house.
3 Q. When you arrived into hangar 6, did you recognise any of
4 the prisoners coming from Upper Bradina?
5 A. Yes. I knew most of them. Maybe I didn't know the
6 names of some of the younger ones, but I knew most of
7 them by sight and even by name. I did know them.
8 Q. Do you have any knowledge as to, say, approximately how
9 many prisoners you found in hangar 6 coming from Upper
11 A. I think there were about 100 of them. I think that they
12 were brought in on the 27th. Their village is larger
13 than ours, and I think that there were about 100 of
14 them. There were some others there whom I did not know
15 from other villages in the Konjic municipality.
16 Q. Can you give us a description of the physical conditions
17 of any of these prisoners you recognised as coming from
18 Upper Bradina?
19 A. There were quite a few of them who complained of more
20 serious injuries, but all of them were able to move.
21 They did not have any head injuries. I heard from them
22 that they were told, when they were brought in and
23 beaten, that the instruction was for them not to be
24 beaten on the head.
25 Q. Did any of them receive any medical care, as far as you
1 know, during your stay in hangar 6?
2 A. I don't know. I have no direct knowledge.
3 Q. Do you have any knowledge about any of them having died?
4 MS McMURREY: Your Honour, he is asking a question that
5 calls for speculation on his part; if he saw someone
6 die, that is another thing. If he heard about it from
7 other people -- if he asked if he saw them, that would
8 be a more appropriate question, I believe.
9 MR TURONE: I will rephrase the question like that: did you
10 see any dead person belonging to the group of Upper
12 JUDGE JAN: Where? In hangar Number 6.
13 MR TURONE: In hangar Number 6, of course.
14 A. No, I did not.
15 Q. Mr Kuljanin, did you ever see any of the guards coming
16 to hangar 6 while you were there?
17 A. Yes. They did come and talk to us. We went out to have
18 something to eat. We were taken out into the compound.
19 Then if we had to go out to relieve ourselves, but I did
20 not know anyone of the guards, but they did carry out
21 their tasks, but there was no structure like that at the
22 time when I was there for the four days. In that brief
23 period I was not able to see much. Only one evening
24 there was one occasion Radoslav Kuljanin was called out,
25 and I left the day after that. He was taken out in
1 front of the hangar and we could hear the beating and
2 the screams and the moaning. He was brought in next to
3 the door, and then I left and he stayed there lying
4 down. That is the only thing that I heard. I couldn't
5 see who it was, because he had been taken out. Even if
6 I had seen the people who beat them, because I
7 couldn't -- I didn't know them, because I knew very few
8 people from Konjic, especially the younger ones.
9 Q. Mr Kuljanin, do you know the names of any of the guards
10 you might have seen?
11 MS McMURREY: Your Honour, I object to that question.
12 JUDGE JAN: He has already answered that. He does not
14 MS McMURREY: If he found out after the fact, it is not
15 relevant to this proceeding. It is whether he knew them
16 at that time and could he recognise them then?
17 A. Excuse me. Could you please clarify what is this all
19 JUDGE JAN: He has already answered he did not know the
21 MR TURONE: My question was did he know any name of
22 guards --
23 JUDGE JAN: He has already said that.
24 A. No. That is what I said. I did not know.
25 MR TURONE: Mr Kuljanin, do you know who was the Commander
1 of the Celebici camp?
2 A. I couldn't vouch for the identity of the person. I
3 don't have personal knowledge, but in the few days I was
4 there I couldn't learn that much, but I can tell you
5 that I did meet somebody there who was apparently in
6 charge. He had a bandage on his foot or leg, and he was
7 walking on crutches in the few days I was there, but I
8 did not know who that person was at the time. I learned
9 later that it was somebody by the name of Delic. Then
10 when I went to Konjic, that's when I learned. I learned
11 that from the people who knew him in Konjic, but again I
12 can't say that I could see -- say I saw him participate
13 in anything. That's only -- the only thing I heard was
14 that somebody called this Kuljanin out and that he was
15 beaten there.
16 Q. You mean Radoslav?
17 A. In the three or four days. Yes, that is correct,
18 Radoslav Kuljanin.
19 Q. How frequently did you see Mr Delic inside Celebici?
20 JUDGE JAN: He said he had not seen him. He has already
21 answered that question. He has already answered the
23 MR TURONE: He did say he saw him.
24 JUDGE JAN: He saw a man on crutches and later on he
25 learned what his name was. In the camp he did not know
1 he was the commander. That is what he said.
2 MR TURONE: How frequently did you see this person with
3 some problem of the legs during your stay in Celebici?
4 A. In the three or four days that I was there, in Number 6,
5 I saw him every day.
6 Q. Was he using crutches every day?
7 A. Yes. When I saw him, he was on crutches while I was
9 Q. Can you say what he came -- what did he come for to
10 hangar 6?
11 A. I can't really say what his duties were, but from what I
12 saw he had a say in things. I think maybe he was even
13 in charge of the cutting up of the blankets and the
14 distribution of those blankets. It is possible. It's
15 very likely.
16 Q. Mr Kuljanin, were you ever interrogated by military
17 investigators during your stay in Celebici?
18 A. Yes, I was interrogated.
19 Q. Were you still in tunnel 9 or already in hangar 6?
20 A. In hangar number 6.
21 Q. Where in the camp did that happen?
22 A. Down there towards the entrance gates there was an
23 administration building there, a command building to the
24 left. I think there was a porch there on that
25 building. This is where a man sat and questioned
1 people. There were two of them there. I think he was
2 dressed in civilian clothes. That's what I think.
3 Q. Were you accused of anything specific?
4 A. No, they did not accuse me of anything.
5 Q. Do you remember the name of this person who interrogated
7 A. No. I did not know him.
8 Q. Did you ever see him again?
9 A. No, I did not. I spent a very brief time there. I
10 don't know if he continued to discharge that duty after
11 I left. I don't know, but I did not see him after that,
12 and then I left.
13 Q. How did this man treat you?
14 A. I can say that the treatment was not bad. He told me
15 that I should say everything. It wasn't a bad
17 Q. Was that a long interrogation?
18 A. No, it wasn't.
19 Q. Do you remember what did he ask you?
20 A. The thing that I remember best is that he asked me
21 whether I had weapons, and I responded truthfully. As
22 for the other things, he accused me of some things and
23 then I had to respond to the allegations, but they
24 didn't last long.
25 Q. Okay. Your Honour, may I mark a document for
1 identification as exhibit number 83 and 83A? May I ask
2 that the original be put on the ELMO for identification,
4 JUDGE JAN: What are these documents?
5 MR TURONE: This is the statement given to this -- during
6 this interrogation.
7 JUDGE JAN: By?
8 MR TURONE: By the witness.
9 JUDGE JAN: The officer -- you can read out the statement
10 to him. Does it bear his signature or anything of that
11 sort? Read out the statement and ask him whether he
12 made the statement or not. Then only can you have it
13 exhibited. How does he know what this statement is?
14 MS McMURREY: If you may, I am quite confused. We are not
15 aware of what statement this is they are talking about.
16 JUDGE JAN: This is what I want to find out. The statement
17 can be read out to the witness and he can say this is
18 the statement he made before the officer who
19 interrogated him in the camp.
20 MS McMURREY: I do not know. I would like to know that
21 too. Thank you.
22 JUDGE JAN: Unless you read out the statement, how would he
23 know it is a statement he made?
24 MR TURONE: Well, Mr Kuljanin, do you remember having
25 signed a statement?
1 JUDGE JAN: First, read it out and ask him whether he
2 signed it or not.
3 A. No, I don't. I know that I did not read this. I don't
4 know if it includes all the words that I said, but I
5 know that I didn't stay there for a long time.
6 JUDGE JAN: He is disowning the statement, so how can you
7 have it exhibited?
8 MR TURONE: I beg your pardon. I would like this statement
9 in original to be shown to the witness on the ELMO and
10 my question is: do you recognise this piece of paper
11 for any detail on it, and particularly do you recognise
12 as yours the signature appearing on the bottom of it?
13 A. Yes, I recognise the signature. The signature, yes.
14 Q. Do you remember having said to the person who
15 interrogated some details about rifles received by
16 Slobodan Kuljanin?
17 JUDGE JAN: Excuse me. Are you referring to this statement
18 or are you referring to some other fact?
19 MR TURONE: Exactly.
20 JUDGE JAN: Read out the statement to him. Ask him whether
21 he has made this statement.
22 MR TURONE: I can read out the statement in English, your
24 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: I think the Trial Chamber will have a
25 break now and come back at 11.40.
1 (11.20 am)
2 (Short break)
3 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Mr Turone, are you all right to carry
4 on now?
5 MR TURONE: All right. Thank you, your Honour. Coming
6 back to this document --
7 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Please hold on. I think --
8 MS RESIDOVIC (in interpretation): Your Honour, during the
9 break a problem in the treatment of our clients
10 occurred, and I would like to ask your permission to
11 present this problem now before this part of the hearing
12 is concluded, so that maybe you can make an appropriate
13 ruling on that.
14 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Okay. Let us clear up this matter and
15 know what exactly the position is. What is the
17 MS RESIDOVIC (in interpretation): Your Honours, during one
18 of the status conferences we presented the problem of
19 the transport of the accused to the court room, and we
20 indicated that these problems will increase during the
21 trial, because our clients spend the time during the
22 early morning until the late evening here, and that we
23 indicated that it might cause problems for them
24 following the trial, and it is of vital importance for
25 all four of them.
1 When we were preparing for this trial during the
2 induction course that we attended together with the
3 Registry, all of us defence counsel, when we were asked
4 whether we want to be in touch with our clients during
5 every break, we said "yes", and we asked that we be
6 allowed to be in touch with our clients during the lunch
7 break and also during all the other breaks in the
8 proceedings during the day.
9 However, ever since the first day there have been
10 problems. Depending on the security guards' shifts, our
11 clients are either allowed to get out during the break
12 or they are not allowed to leave the court room, and the
13 explanation is that there are technical problems.
14 Allegedly they cannot take four people out in the period
15 of 20 minutes.
16 Your Honours, I think that this violates the basic
17 rights of our clients to have a brief break during the
18 daily proceedings, and I already said that it is long
19 for us, but it is even longer for them, because the
20 transportation takes at least two hours. Thus they are
21 unable to talk to us. They are not able to smoke a
22 cigarette or have a coffee, and that engenders
23 unnecessary and I think unpermissible problems to us and
24 to our clients, and on the other hand, I think it could
25 also cause problems for this Tribunal, because they
1 cannot be concentrated to follow the presentation of
3 Therefore, I would like to ask you, your Honours,
4 to make a ruling which would enable them to use every
5 break that we have, and that our clients are enabled to
6 leave the court room during those breaks and to be in
7 contact with their defence counsel.
8 JUDGE JAN: Before -- may I say I few things? I think
9 counsel have a right to have free access to their
10 clients during the trial and a ruling should be made
11 that they can meet them and talk to them during the
12 breaks. You should have free access to your clients.
13 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: It is a technical problem, as you have
14 mentioned, and especially -- perhaps the Trial Chamber
15 might not take a decision without conferring with the
16 security about how these arrangements can be done, but I
17 think we will immediately try to get in touch with them
18 and find out how we can ameliorate these problems,
19 because I know everyone is uneasy as to how long one
20 can stay without this type of freedom. I think we will
21 try to see what we can do. At least by the close of the
22 day we will tell you what we have agreed upon.
23 MS RESIDOVIC (in interpretation): Thank you very much,
24 your Honour. If the problem is in the duration of the
25 break, I know you will make it longer.
1 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: As I said, by the end of the day we
2 will try to see how to adjust it so that it might make
3 things easier.
4 MR OSTBERG: Your Honour, from the side of the
5 prosecution -- I just want to bring to your Honour's
6 attention from the side of the prosecution we support
7 these suggestions by the defence counsels, and we defer
8 this question to your Honours and to the Registrar to
9 find a solution.
10 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Thank you very much, Mr Ostberg. As I
11 indicated, these are not decisions you take
12 arbitrarily. You have to get those particularly
13 involved. Thank you very much.
14 Mr Turone, you can carry on.
15 MR TURONE: So coming back to this document, which was
16 anyway shown to the defence before this hearing, my idea
17 was to mark that for identification and put it on the
18 ELMO for the witness to identify that, but I understand
19 that you prefer, your Honour, that I read it in English
20 translation and --
21 JUDGE JAN: If he can read it himself, we have no
23 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Please, when you have a question of a
24 statement you want to tender, you have a way of getting
25 the witness to admit he made such a statement. When he
1 has admitted making the statement, you show it to him
2 and he can read it. If it is his statement, then you
3 tender it. You do not have to read it. He can read it.
4 MR TURONE: Yes. This is what exactly I proposed to do.
5 Mr Kuljanin, if you can look at this document on your
6 right hand, can you read it and say whether you
7 recognise this as a statement of yours?
8 A. Well, let me tell you I can't remember what statements I
9 gave, but I can confirm that this is my signature. That
10 is true. I don't know if I could read all this. I have
11 problems seeing, but if I can read this and if I notice
12 something that I remember that had been added -- I know
13 very well that nothing was read to me after the
14 questioning. I signed because I was not in any
15 condition to say that I don't want to sign.
16 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: But you made a statement, did you?
17 A. Excuse me?
18 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: You made a statement?
19 A. Yes.
20 JUDGE JAN: But he is only admitting the signatures. He is
21 not admitting its contents.
22 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: That is a different matter. You made
23 a statement. Perhaps if you know this is your
25 A. I recognise my signature, but I do not know what is in
1 the statement because I was not --
2 MR TURONE: Mr Kuljanin, could you please read this piece
3 of paper?
4 A. I cannot read it. I would prefer if somebody would read
5 it for me, because I really have problems seeing this.
6 Q. Of course you can --
7 A. Not everything is familiar.
8 Q. -- read it not on the screen, but the real piece of
9 paper you have on the table beside you.
10 MS McMURREY: Maybe we could solve this problem more
11 expeditiously if the court is aware the defence has no
12 objections to the admission of this statement into
13 evidence by the prosecution. The only thing that we do
14 have one objection to is that there is an interpretation
15 to English by the prosecution, and there is an
16 interpretation into English by the interpreters, and
17 there is a discrepancy between the interpretation. As
18 far as the original document, we have no objection. It
19 might assist Mr Turone right now in his endeavours to
20 try to get it into evidence.
21 MR TURONE: Thank you, Ms McMurrey.
22 MS McMURREY: You are welcome.
23 MR TURONE: So our position would be to tender this
24 document as exhibit number 83 and have the English
25 translation reviewed further on, if there is no
1 objection to that.
2 JUDGE JAN: Since it is an admitted document, it may be
3 exhibited. Since this is an admitted document, let it
4 be exhibited.
5 MR TURONE: All right.
6 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: There is a simple way. He has
7 admitted he made a statement. The signature is his
8 own. So you can tender it.
9 MR TURONE: All right. I tender this exhibit as exhibit
11 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: If possible, let it be read out so
12 that the interpreters will read it, so he will know
13 exactly what it says.
14 MR TURONE: Do you mean the interpreter should read it out
15 in the original language?
16 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Yes, and it will be interpreted.
17 MS RESIDOVIC (in interpretation): Your Honour, we agree
18 that this is the document. We would just like to point
19 out some discrepancies in the translation. The
20 translation of a sentence here is missing, indicating
21 that during the inspection he carried a weapon and Rajko
22 had a semi-automatic rifle. There is also another part
23 of a sentence missing saying that the men that he had
24 warned to hand over their weapons did not agree to do
25 so. This is not incorrectly translated. Finally, there
1 is an introduction to this statement, which does not
2 exist in the original. I think that the interpreters
3 can now make an -- all the appropriate corrections.
4 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: The interpretation is not in evidence
5 now so it is not part of the document tendered. When
6 the interpreters interpret it, that will be sufficient
7 for the interpretation of the statement he made.
8 JUDGE JAN: Give us an agreed translation, so there is no
9 particular difficulty. You can translate it and show it
10 to the defence. They agree to it and file. The
11 document is this one.
12 MR TURONE: My proposal is that the agreed translation may
13 be handed over later on because --
14 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: There is no translation before us
15 now. There is none now.
16 MR TURONE: We have now a translation, and it is a
17 translation --
18 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Which is disputed.
19 MR TURONE: Which is disputed, because there are some words
20 which were not legible enough in the opinion of the
21 interpreter who did this translation which is now
22 disputed. Now the possibilities in my opinion are two:
23 either -- whether we might have the original read out to
24 the witness, or we might decide that this disputed
25 translation be read out in English. I don't see any
1 other possibility right now.
2 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Why do you want to read out the
3 disputed interpretation?
4 MR TURONE: This is not what I mean to do. I think my
5 proposal is to have the original read out in Serbian
6 language by somebody, but this cannot be me.
7 MS McMURREY: Your Honour, this may be of assistance to the
8 court, that we have a translation here that we feel is
9 accurate. If the prosecution will agree to this right
10 now, then we could distribute it. We have copies and we
11 could all go on with this evidence, or Ms Residovic
12 could read it in the language of Bosnian, and it can be
13 interpreted for you on the headsets at this moment.
14 MR TURONE: This can be a good possibility in our opinion.
15 MS McMURREY: Whatever you choose. We have an English
16 translation and we have Ms Residovic, who reads the
18 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Let counsel read it out. He will be
19 listening. If he does not agree with it, he will say
21 MR TURONE: Please read it out very slowly, Ms Residovic.
22 MS RESIDOVIC (in interpretation): Your Honours, I would
23 just like the witness to react if I read anything that
24 is not accurate, because I cannot say anything about the
25 truth of the statement.
1 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: All you are reading is his statement.
2 Where it is not agreed to him, he will say so. So read
3 it exactly without any annotation or without even any
4 embellishment of it. Just read his statement. Let the
5 interpreter interpret it.
6 MS RESIDOVIC (in interpretation): The heading is:
7 "Republic BiH, Municipality of Konjic, TO and HVO
8 Headquarters, Municipal Headquarters, Konjic.
9 Date: 2nd June 1992".
10 Then on one side, on the upper side, there is the
11 marking "3K".
13 Drawn up on 2nd June 1992 on the premises of the
14 TO and HVO headquarters, Konjic."
15 A. It's okay.
16 Q. "Kuljanin Mirko, son of Milan and Savka" --
17 A. Not Konjic, Celebici.
18 Q. -- "Gligorevic, 23rd October 1931, Bradina, residing in
19 Bradina, retired.
20 I am not a member of the SDS, although I had been
21 offered to join the party. I received a weapon two
22 months ago from Slobodan Kuljanin an M-48 rifle, and 45
23 rounds. Fifteen days ago I was assigned with Rajko
24 Kuljanin to go to Velika and to patrol it. On that
25 occasion I carried the weapon and Rajko had a
1 semi-automatic rifle. Our neighbours met us in Velika,
2 our neighbours from Repocin, with Hamzo Ajanovic. We
3 spoke for a while and they told us to leave the rifles,
4 and we did accordingly. We did not resist this. We
5 advised the people in Bradina about that and we told
6 them to hand over the weapons, which they did not agree
7 to do.
8 They offered me weapons again, but I refused to
9 accept it, I had a pistol with a permit, which I handed
10 over when I surrendered.
11 When the fighting started, I was with my wife and
12 children in the basement. We surrendered the same day.
13 I have a son whose name is Novica, and he had an AP
14 automatic rifle. I don't know what happened to him.
15 Statement given by Mirko Kuljanin. Statement
16 taken by Mladen Zovko."
17 MR TURONE: All right.
18 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Thank you very much.
19 MR TURONE: Mr Kuljanin, did you hear what was read out
20 right now?
21 A. I heard, but it does not correspond to the truth. I did
22 not go on any patrols. I just went with this man to
23 plant potatoes. I went to my plot of land, and we had
24 no intention of trespassing or going in any other -- to
25 any other village. I do not know what it says here,
1 that he carried a PAP.
2 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: That is your son has an AP?
3 A. Yes, but what about Rajko?
4 MS RESIDOVIC: PAP is semi-automatic rifle, your Honour.
5 A. I heard somebody say "PAP, P-A-P", but I thought it was
6 a larger weapon, as far as I knew.
7 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: But is this your statement?
8 A. Yes, for the most part, but there are some words that
9 have been added, but he didn't read it to me, and I was
10 in no condition to ask for it to be read to me, but
11 there are some questions and my answers. The signature
12 is mine.
13 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Which bits have been added?
14 A. That they were captured, that has been added; that I was
15 told to surrender the weapons, that has also been added;
16 that Ajanovic, that has also been added. I know only
17 that they said that there was some commander there, and
18 I thought that this Ajanovic -- he used to be an active
19 serviceman. I mentioned his name and they said "yes".
20 This is what this was all about, but Ajanovic was not
21 there at the time.
22 There were seven or eight other people. I think I
23 knew about two of them by sight, but I did not know
24 their names. They took the weapons away with them.
25 They were armed themselves. Everybody was armed, and I
1 just said: "I don't know why you think -- what would
2 have happened if we continued going towards your
3 village? You can see we just went to work our land. If
4 I had went any further towards your village, towards
5 your property, I would have agreed to you killing me,
6 but we didn't do that. We just went to our land, to our
8 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Thank you very much.
9 MR TURONE: Now, Mr Kuljanin, could you tell us
10 approximately when did you leave Celebici camp?
11 A. I think soon thereafter, after -- I think two or three
12 days after I gave this statement, because if I hadn't
13 given the statement if this formality hadn't been taken,
14 I heard that there would be some transfers, and if no
15 statement had been given, no transfer would be done, and
16 we heard that the conditions in Konjic were better, and
17 since I was an elderly man and there were no
18 allegations, charges against me, I managed to be
19 questioned as required and I managed to be transferred,
20 maybe on 3rd or 4th June, thereabouts. I don't know
21 exactly. I don't remember the exact date, but I think
22 that my total stay there was about ten days, both in
23 Number 6 and in Number 9.
24 Q. You mean the total number of days in Celebici?
25 A. Yes. I apologise. Another correction. This was not
1 made in Konjic but in Celebici, in the Celebici camp.
2 Q. Correct,. Celebici is inside the municipality of
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Mr Kuljanin, you said: "I was transferred." Where were
6 you transferred exactly?
7 A. From Celebici.
8 Q. Yes, from Celebici --
9 A. I don't know how large the group was, but a group was
10 transferred to the sports hall in Konjic, in Musala, and
11 I stayed there until I was released, until I was let go.
12 Q. Can you explain in more detail how was this transfer
13 carried on? Who called you out of hangar 6 in order to
14 be transferred to Musala?
15 A. I could describe that the way I know it. Some people
16 arrived and I think that there were some people in
17 charge. They came into the hangar. They walked
18 around. They pointed fingers to separate people. I
19 don't know who these people were, but I was separated
20 out, among others, and I came out, and they transferred
21 us in a van to Konjic, in the sports hall in Konjic at
23 Q. How many prisoners were with you in the van going from
24 Celebici to Musala?
25 A. I wouldn't know the exact number. Maybe at that time
1 maybe ten or fifteen. I don't know. I don't know
2 exactly how many there were.
3 Q. How long did you stay in Musala sports hall?
4 A. I stayed there until I was released from the camp. I
5 think that was on 24th, 25th -- 24th August.
6 Q. Do you know who was the Commander of the Musala camp?
7 A. In Musala I can say that I noticed that Pavo would show
8 up, that he was respected there, but I know that he did
9 not come very often, but when he did, he was given
10 respect. Now who was the real Commander of all these
11 camps, that I don't know. Whether it was separated,
12 whether there was one Commander, and such things.
13 Q. Do you know the full name of this Pavo you are talking
15 A. It should be Zdravko Mucic, as far as I know, called
16 Pavo, and I only met him when I was transferred to
17 Konjic, I think.
18 Q. How frequently did you see him in Musala?
19 A. Not very often. As I said, he would show up. Not very
20 often, but we sensed because there was all kind of order
21 and the people were telling us to get up, things like
22 that, but he did not show up very often. I was there a
23 bit longer. I can say that he appeared daily maybe once
24 a week, not often, no.
25 Q. When you arrived at Musala, coming from Celebici, did
1 anybody in charge of that camp, of Musala, register your
3 A. I don't know. I really don't. Maybe there was a list
4 somewhere about who was there, but I don't know about
5 it. What I can describe is that shortly after I arrived
6 I was in a room which was called Number 6. Number 6,
7 there were locker rooms, and it was over 30 of us. It
8 was quite packed, and later I was transferred to Number
9 8, and I stayed there until I was released.
10 Q. Did you have any occasion of seeing Mr Mucic while you
11 were in the first place inside Musala?
12 JUDGE JAN: He said that he used to come once a week
13 maybe. He must have seen him. He has already said that
14 is correct that he used to come once a week. He must
15 have seen him. Why are you asking how frequently?
16 MR TURONE: I would like him to say which was the first
17 time when he saw Mr Mucic in Musala camp.
18 MR GREAVES: Your Honour, I really think that what he is
19 trying to do is have a little bit of cross-examination
20 of his own witness, with respect. He has done very well
21 so far, but I think he is straying into that realm and I
22 would ask that he perhaps just be careful about that,
24 MR TURONE: Do you mean this is a leading question?
25 MR GREAVES: No, I meant it was a cross-examination.
1 JUDGE JAN: You are cross-examining a statement he already
2 made. You are cross-examining him really. He said
3 that. Fair enough. Proceed further.
4 MR TURONE: All right. I am sorry?
5 A. If you are in agreement, your Honours, I could say that
6 when he would come, this Zdravko Mucic, he came when we
7 were in that big hall, and I did not notice him. I did
8 not see him coming to these small rooms when they were
9 there. I did not see him there. He would only come to
10 the door in the big room where we were sitting around in
11 that sports hall.
12 MR TURONE: All right. Mr Kuljanin, did you ever have
13 occasion of seeing in Musala any of the guards being in
14 charge in Celebici.
15 MS McMURREY: Your Honour, I am going to object. He
16 already said he did not know any of the guards in
17 Celebici and he could not identify them.
18 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: What he is asking is whether he at any
19 time saw any of the guards.
20 MS McMURREY: From Celebici.
21 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Yes.
22 JUDGE JAN: Maybe they were common guards. Maybe he can
23 say some persons he saw.
24 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: He is not talking about knowing them.
25 It is whether he saw any of them. It is quite a
1 different thing.
2 MS McMURREY: Did he see any of the guards from Celebici
3 was the question.
4 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Yes. He did not have to know them.
5 JUDGE JAN: He said he did not know the guards.
6 MS McMURREY: I see. Thank you.
7 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: You do not have to know them.
8 MR TURONE: Did you understand my question, Mr Kuljanin?
9 A. As far as I recall and from the people who knew, I saw
10 this man called Zenga. I saw him twice. I must say
11 that I didn't get anything from him.
12 MS McMURREY: Your Honour, I object to this testimony. The
13 exact statement was "from people who knew". He is not
14 using his own personal knowledge about the name of this
15 person, and he is testifying from no personal knowledge.
16 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Well, if somebody points out another
17 person to you and tells you "this is this man", you know
18 he could still use that. That is knowledge.
19 MS McMURREY: Your Honour, I believe he was not testifying
20 from personal knowledge. It is only what somebody else
21 told him. We have no way of authenticating whether that
22 person knew this person or not, and it is hearsay, but
23 it is more than that. It is unreliable testimony.
24 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Well, it might be when your
25 cross-examination goes to make it totally unreliable,
1 because he does not claim to have known him himself.
2 Somebody told him about him.
3 JUDGE JAN: Apart from that, you are assessing the
4 probative value at this stage. The evidence comes and
5 then we can find out how much probative value it has.
6 MS McMURREY: Okay.
7 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Let it come in. This is how he got to
8 know who he said this man was. When you challenge him
9 about his knowledge, you might show that.
10 MR MORAN: Your Honour, if we could also object as to the
11 relevancy of this whole line. The questioning makes no
12 fact of importance to the indictment more or less
14 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: You are a little unfamiliar with our
15 rules. All it says, if it is relative or probative, I
16 suppose this is going to that extent. You still have a
17 chance of destroying whatever the basis for that
18 knowledge is. You still have a chance.
19 JUDGE JAN: Apart from that, I think counsel is right
20 saying we are more concerned with what happened at
21 Celebici rather than Musala.
22 MS McMURREY: Yes, your Honour. We would like to join in
23 Mr Moran's objection that what happened at Musala is
24 irrelevant to these proceedings also.
25 MR TURONE: Anyway, your Honour, I am going to tender the
1 release form of this witness, and the release form for
2 this witness has a signature of one of our defendants.
3 This release form was done, of course, after the
4 detention period in Musala. So there is a sort of
5 linkage between the two periods. This is why in my
6 opinion we cannot say that whatever happened in Musala
7 is not relevant to our trial.
8 MS McMURREY: Your Honour --
9 JUDGE JAN: Put to him the release order straight away.
10 MR TURONE: I am arriving to that.
11 MS McMURREY: Might I suggest the more appropriate way
12 would be to question him from the release order that he
13 intends to put into evidence, and then we are not led
14 astray with irrelevant situations that may or may not
15 have occurred at Musala. That is our objection.
16 MR TURONE: Your Honours, what I say is that the relevance
17 of some questions can be appreciated after some other
18 questions which might come later on.
19 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: I don't know. The type of
20 anticipation you are going about may make matters more
21 difficult for you. Sometimes you allow the evidence to
22 come in, so that you know what to do. Now you are
23 anticipating a thing which you cannot really defend. If
24 he has a discharge certificate, obviously it is a
25 discharge certificate from the witness, which
1 necessarily must come in. He wants this chance.
2 MS McMURREY: We agree. Let us put it in.
3 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: What are you arguing about?
4 MS McMURREY: The other irrelevant things he was
5 questioning about.
6 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Has he said anything more than that?
7 MS McMURREY: Yes.
8 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: The discharge certificate?
9 MS McMURREY: I believe the original question was something
10 else, but we agree wholly with his putting that in
12 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: The discharge certificate, let us
13 carry on with it.
14 MR TURONE: On the other hand, your Honours, our evidence
15 will show in our opinion that Mr Mucic was in charge of
16 both Celebici and Musala.
17 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: That is nothing to do with this
18 witness. It is nothing to do with him.
19 MR TURONE: May I proceed, your Honour?
20 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Yes. Go on. Go ahead.
21 MR TURONE: So how did you get to know this name, Zenga.
22 MS McMURREY: Your Honour, I am going to object. This is
23 completely objectionable and irrelevant, what he found
24 out at Musala, to what happened at Celebici.
25 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: The question is: how did you know the
1 name Zenga? What is objectionable about that?
2 MS McMURREY: Because he found out at Musala way after the
3 fact. It has nothing to do --
4 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: That is not why he could not have
5 known about the name Zenga.
6 MS McMURREY: Your Honour, it is irrelevant to the period.
7 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: How is it irrelevant? Can he not know
8 the name? How much he knew it is what he is being asked
9 about. Let him state how he knew it.
10 MS McMURREY: The answer is somebody else told him, I am
12 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Has he said so?
13 MS McMURREY: No, but that is unreliable testimony. So ...
14 thank you.
15 MR TURONE: Would you answer to my question, Mr Kuljanin?
16 How did you get to know this name "Zenga"?
17 A. Let me tell you, because I can't be sure, but at least
18 twice I know that he came and saw the rooms, and I
19 remember him having some white belt on him, and the
20 word, I think, spread that somebody had bad experiences
21 with him so --
22 MS McMURREY: I am going to object to that line of
24 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Do not waste our time. Let him give
25 his evidence.
1 MS McMURREY: He is talking about what somebody else said
2 about it.
3 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: I said leave him to give his
4 evidence. You have no right to give evidence for him.
5 A. So that I found out about him that way, and as far as
6 direct contact with me, no, I did not know him, but
7 through that -- but twice I know, I am sure 100 per
8 cent, he came down the hallway and looked into every
9 room, and one could see that he was looking for
10 something or someone. I don't know what, but the people
11 who knew him were not happy to meet with him. Why? We
12 know why. Those who were threatened by him know that
14 MR TURONE: So my next question is: how do you know he was
15 a Celebici guard?
16 A. I am in a position to know, because people were
17 transferred back and forth quite a bit, so that a lot
18 was known and a lot was -- even though it was a camp, it
19 was a prison. Somehow you find out about things, but
20 those who were eye-witnesses, they know, but the others
21 also gained knowledge somehow.
22 Q. Now, Mr Kuljanin, when you were released from Musala
23 camp, who called you for releasing you?
24 A. The direct calling out I don't know, but I know that I
25 got into a van, which took me to Donje Selo. I had
1 limited movement for Donje Selo and Celebici. I think
2 that's what should be in my release order, "limited
3 movement", but at that time, we were driven by Pavo
4 Mucic at that time.
5 Q. Driven in the van, you mean?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Could you tell us more details on this -- on how and
8 from whom you received this release form you have been
9 talking about?
10 A. I don't know if it was given out by the same person,
11 these release forms. I could not guarantee that, but
12 all of us who came out that day, who were released, we
13 all got those release forms.
14 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Who gave you your release form? Who
15 gave it to you?
16 A. Whether it was Mucic or someone else, but from what I
17 could see it was his signature on it and also I don't
18 recall who called me out.
19 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: You do not recall who gave it to you?
20 A. Whether it was that same Pavo or someone else, but I
21 received it in my hands. I know that he drove us to
22 Donje Selo. That I know, when we were released.
23 MR TURONE: Now, your Honour, I would like to have this
24 document marked for identification as number 84.
25 JUDGE JAN: Just before you do that, did Mucic sign the
1 release order in your presence?
2 A. No it had been prepared beforehand, I think.
3 MR TURONE: So I would like to have this marked for
4 identification as Exhibit Number 84 and 84A for the
5 English translation. This is also the document which we
6 prepared for the convenience of your Honours, and
7 defence counsel has it already, as far as I know. Could
8 we please place the original language form on the ELMO?
9 Mr Kuljanin, can you recognise this document? Is that
10 familiar to you?
11 A. Yes. That's what I received when I left camp. Yes,
12 that's what I received.
13 Q. So can you say to whom the signature belongs?
14 A. It is not legible enough to me but as far as I can make
15 it out, it says "Mucic".
16 Q. Okay. The date of this release form, can you read the
17 date of this release form?
18 A. Yes. Let me see. 26th you say? No. No, that's when I
19 was arrested. I am sorry. I have difficulty finding
21 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Is this in dispute?
22 MR GREAVES: I am perfectly happy that my learned friend
23 should direct the witness' attention to the place where
24 the date is to be found. It seems sensible to do that.
25 MR TURONE: If I am allowed to do that without that being a
1 leading question, I would say this is on top of the
3 JUDGE JAN: 19th August.
4 A. Yes, yes, up there. 19th August 1992.
5 MR TURONE: So, your Honours, if there are no objections, I
6 would like to tender Exhibit Number 84 for admission.
7 MR GREAVES: I have no objection to that.
8 MS McMURREY: We have no objections, your Honour.
9 MR MORAN: No objection, your Honour.
10 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Yes. It is admitted.
11 MR TURONE: Admitted. Coming to the end, I would like now
12 the witness to look at the video we have been looking at
13 already a couple of days ago. It is exhibit D1-2 of the
14 defence. I would like to ask Mr Kuljanin, whether he
15 recognises anybody in this video.
16 Mr Kuljanin, you tell us if you recognise people
17 in this video?
18 A. I recognise myself and Djorde Milan. I recognise
19 myself; Djorde Milan; Gligorevic. I can't recall the
20 first name.
21 Q. Can you say in which place was the videotape done? Do
22 you remember the moment?
23 A. This is -- I recall the name, Mitar Gligorevic. That I
24 don't know. I couldn't tell you when this was filmed
25 and who did it, and whether that was the date. I don't
2 Q. I mean, my question is: do you recognise the place in
3 which the videotape was -- in which you were?
4 A. Could it have been in the sports hall? I couldn't quite
5 tell you. If it wasn't there, then I don't know where
6 it was. This is -- Boro Kuljanin it looks, and Mrkajic
7 Mijailo. Then it couldn't be in Konjic. I see Mrkajic
8 Mijailo. Samoukovic Simo, I see him up there, and the
9 Gligorevic fellow. That's me. This is myself.
10 Q. All right, your Honour. My examination-in-chief is
11 finished. Thank you.
12 A. I am sorry. I asked to take that cap with me so I could
13 put it on, because of the injuries I had on my head, and
14 they allowed me that. This is Milan Djordjic, who was
15 the oldest in the camp. He was 73 years old at that
17 Q. I have no more questions, your Honour.
18 JUDGE JAN: There is just one thing I want to find out.
19 This video is prepared on the afternoon of 20th August,
20 as the date and the time shows. The release order is
21 19th August. So it must be -- the release order is
22 issued in Konjic. It must be after he has been released
23 these photographs were taken. I just want to find out
24 information. The release order is 19th August?
25 MR TURONE: Yes.
1 JUDGE JAN: This video is done on --
2 MR TURONE: This video is done on 20th August. I had some
3 question, but he did not have a real precise answer,
4 so ...
5 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: I suppose it might depend on when he
6 actually left the place. It could have been signed on
7 19th August.
8 MR TURONE: Sure.
9 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: He might have not left then.
10 JUDGE JAN: Possibly.
11 MR TURONE: To our question he replied he is not sure about
12 the exact day of the ...
13 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: There is a question.
14 JUDGE ODIO BENITO: Thank you.
15 Mr Kuljanin, yesterday you told the court that the
16 day you were arrested there was a group of women and
17 children. That was in Bradina?
18 A. Bradina, yes.
19 JUDGE ODIO BENITO: Would you tell the court, if you know,
20 where this group was taken out, this group of women and
22 A. Yes, I can. I can tell that. They were separated out
23 at that intersection centre. They were separated to one
24 side, and we were lined up on the road leading towards
25 Konjic. Women and children were separated out to the
1 right of us and then they were taken to that elementary
2 school in Bradina. That's where the women and children
3 were taken, and also my father was there.
4 For me it was very important. He was 84 years
5 old. He was beaten up, and he was in pain for two days
6 and then he died. I don't know if he was any soldier,
7 but I mentioned that everything was going to be
8 destroyed that day; they went to destroy it. That's
9 what they did.
10 That same date, the 26th, over 20 people were
11 killed in that hamlet, in that village, and through all
12 this time -- by the time I completed my stay in the
13 camps, 60 per cent were killed from Bradina. This is
14 what I know. I could not have been an eye-witness, but
15 I am not insane either. We survived it, contact and
16 meet. So in that way we found all that out.
17 There is a common grave near the church in Bradina
18 and 17 or 18 victims were buried in there. I don't know
19 what happened to that common grave. I don't know if
20 it's still there or not. Then others were buried, the
21 ones who came later, in that same churchyard. Some were
22 buried in the cemetery as well. I don't know in what
23 shape all that is now. I wouldn't know that.
24 JUDGE ODIO BENITO: Thank you. So these women and children
25 were also arrested and mistreated? Is that what
2 A. Yes. They had to undergo various things. Women and
3 girls were taken out during the night and again this is
4 what we managed to find out when we talked among
5 ourselves. I was not an eye-witness to that. That's
6 because I was taken to the Konjic and Celebici camps.
7 Another thing, a few houses were left standing
8 until 12th July, and then a new operation was conducted
9 and everything was razed to the ground, and while we
10 were still in the camp some people were saying that we
11 would be allowed to go back to our homes, to our
12 property, but some people didn't want that. Some people
13 did not want us to go back to our homes, and so they
14 finished the job on 12th or 13th July. That was the
15 time when my father, who remained at home with my wife
16 and daughter-in-law, and my grandchildren -- that's when
17 he was killed, at the age of 84.
18 JUDGE ODIO BENITO: Thank you very much, Mr Kuljanin,.
19 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: The witness is on for
20 cross-examination now, but I don't know. It depends.
21 We have only ten minutes before we break for lunch.
22 MR GREAVES: Your Honour, I can tell you that I have no
23 questions for this witness, so I think the next in line
24 will have to answer your Honour's question.
25 MR MORAN: Your Honour, I believe I am next in line.
1 Whatever the court's pleasure. If the court wants to
2 break a little bit earlier, it is fine. If the court
3 wants me to continue now and stop for a break; I don't
4 have a lot of cross.
5 JUDGE JAN: Is that the agreed order of cross-examination?
6 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Have you agreed the order in which the
7 cross-examination will proceed?
8 MR O'SULLIVAN: Yes, your Honours. We were to proceed with
9 defence for Mr Mucic, Mr Delic, Mr Landzo and then
11 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Yes.
12 Cross-examination by MR MORAN
13 MR MORAN: May it please the court, Mr Kuljanin, my name is
14 Tom Moran. I am one of the defence lawyers. I would
15 like to ask you a few questions to clear some things
16 up. If I ask you a question you don't understand, will
17 you stop me and ask me to rephrase it. If you just
18 listen to my question and just answer the question, I
19 think this may go a little bit quicker.
20 The first thing I would ask you is this: from
21 your testimony yesterday and earlier today would it be
22 fair to say that while you were -- between the time you
23 were initially arrested and the time you arrived at
24 Celebici was the time that the worst treatment occurred;
25 is that fair?
1 A. Yes, that is correct.
2 Q. And that, in fact, once you arrived at Celebici, if
3 there was any mistreatment, it was considerably less
4 than it had been before you got there; is that fair?
5 A. Yes. That is correct. Yes, considerably less, but I
6 suffered the consequences from the injuries I sustained
7 on my way to Celebici.
8 Q. I understand that is correct sir, and I will get to that
9 in a second. I will cover that with you. If I can talk
10 about wanting to try to commit suicide with a nail right
11 after you got to the camp -- remember that yesterday?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. That was because of the treatment that you received from
14 other people before you got to the camp that you were
15 suicidal; is that not right?
16 A. Yes, on the way there.
17 Q. From your observations at the camp at Celebici for the
18 time you were both in the tunnel and in the hangar,
19 would it be right to characterise your testimony as
20 there was a seeming lack of organisation among the staff
21 of the prison?
22 A. Yes, because from what I was able to conclude everyone
23 was left to their own devices, because it seemed that
24 there was not enough care or command over the people who
25 were thus enabled to do whatever they wanted to do. I
1 think that their behaviour -- I think that human beings
2 were not respected. Everybody just wanted to survive,
3 and all of us in that group, we had no dignity.
4 Q. Sir, would it be fair to say the Celebici camp was
5 really not designed to hold prisoners, was it?
6 A. I don't know. It was somebody's intention, that's for
7 sure. We were taken there, and on my way, while I was
8 on my way to Celebici, I was not aware of its
9 existence. I thought we would end up somewhere else in
10 a different manner. I don't know. Maybe it would even
11 have been better, and then when I left the group to hand
12 over the pistol, maybe it would have been better for me
13 to be finished there, but it's up to God.
14 Q. What I am getting at is: would it not be fair to say
15 that the Celebici camp was originally designed to do
16 something other than hold prisoners and it was being
17 used to hold prisoners and being adapted for that
18 purpose, even though it was not designed for that
19 purpose. Is that a fair statement?
20 A. Well, the facilities were not built at that time, but
21 somebody used them for that purpose. That is a known
23 Q. That is correct. So, for instance, in hangar Number 6
24 there was no plumbing there, was there?
25 A. No.
1 Q. And if people were going to bring water, if you were
2 going to have to have anything to drink, people would
3 have to bring water there, would they not?
4 A. Yes. That's why I say there was no care for the
5 survival of the people there. This is my conclusion
6 based on my experience. After all, I survived that.
7 There was lack of hygiene. We could not change our
8 clothes. We couldn't wash. We all ate with the same
9 spoon, 20 of us. We took turns using the same spoon and
10 so on.
11 Q. Yes, sir. I understand that.
12 A. It was not washed.
13 Q. In fact, there was a shortage of water around the whole
14 area, was there not, drinking water, due to the war and
15 the conditions brought on by the war?
16 A. No. As far as I was able to notice, there was plenty of
17 water from the wells, but there was water coming out of
18 the wells, and we really had trouble getting water. We
19 would have given anything for a drink of water, but we
20 didn't have access to it, neither to drink any, nor to
21 wash. Of course, drinking was the most important thing.
22 Q. The way you described it either yesterday or this
23 morning was people were bringing it in buckets of some
24 kind, either tubs or buckets, some tin containers, to
25 bring you water in hangar 6 on a fairly regular basis,
1 were they not?
2 A. Well, not really regularly, because the demand was such
3 that they should have been bringing the water all the
5 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Mr Moran --
6 A. There was not enough water.
7 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: -- it is convenient to stop. So you
8 can continue after lunch break.
9 MR MORAN: That is fine, your Honour.
10 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: We will break and reassemble at 2.30.
12 (Luncheon adjournment)
1 (2.30 pm)
2 Ruling on Motion
3 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Good afternoon, ladies and gentlemen.
4 I have to clear up just two things before we
5 continue with the witness: the question of the security
6 and the comfort of the accused persons. We have agreed
7 we should be able to have a break of 30 minutes to
8 enable the accused persons to be taken down by the
9 security. The perhaps more elaborate aspect, which is
10 that -- which concerns the Dutch security, we have not
11 been able immediately to solve, but later perhaps the
12 Registrar will take that up and they will know how to
13 deal with that. I think within the 30 minutes you
14 should be able to communicate with your clients and not
15 worry about it.
16 The second thing is I said we would read a short
17 ruling on the motion so that we will know what we are
18 doing. You have been cross-examining and will continue
19 to do so.
20 The motion seeks an interpretation of Rule 85 of
21 the rules of procedure in evidence. It was brought by
22 counsel for the fourth accused, Esad Landzo. The
23 interpretation contended for is that every submission of
24 the witness must involve examination-in-chief,
25 cross-examination, re-examination,
1 re-cross-examination. It is clear that this is the
2 meaning of a combined reading of Rules 85A and B of our
3 rules of procedure and evidence. Learned counsel
4 submitted that the Trial Chamber has adopted such an
5 interpretation, and criminal procedures of the United
6 States, Canada and Scotland also adopt the same
8 It has been argued that the failure of this Trial
9 Chamber to do so places the accused persons at a
10 disadvantage and prejudices their chances of a fair
12 Counsel relies on the provisions of Rule 21(4)(E)
13 of the Tribunal's statute, which vests in the accused
14 the right to examine or have examined the witnesses
15 against him.
16 It is also argued that there is a conflict between
17 the practice of this Trial Chamber and the practice
18 adopted during the Tadic trials.
19 The contention of counsel was supported by other
20 counsel, except counsel for Mr Mucic, the second
22 The ruling we are now reading is a summary of the
23 decision, because we still have to write a reasoned
24 decision later, because the Trial Chamber does intend to
25 hand that down later. Just to bridge a gap while this
1 problem is solved.
2 It is a fundamental principle in the
3 administration of justice that where a court has
4 formulated rules to govern its proceedings, it is bound
5 by the provisions of the rules so formulated. It is an
6 elementary principle of the interpretation from which a
7 departure is very rare and it is inherently dangerous
8 that where the meaning of words used in a provision are
9 clear and unambiguous, it should be given such meaning
10 without any annotation. It is a rule from which the
11 court seldom departs.
12 Rule 85 is divided into two paragraphs, A and B.
13 (Actually it is three, but the relevant portion is A and
14 B.) Paragraph A deals with the order of presentation of
15 evidence. Paragraph B is concerned with the examination
16 of witnesses. Each paragraph is complete in itself and
17 does not require paraphrasing for its application.
18 The order of presentation of evidence is as stated
19 in 1-5. The order for examining witnesses are stated in
20 B. This is the general rule. In practice a court has
21 always exercised a discretion in the interests of
22 justice to allow further cross-examination of
23 prosecution witnesses where the re-examination raises a
24 new matter or where the interests of justice so
25 requires. The Trial Chamber does not agree with the
1 submission that the US, Canada and Scottish practice
2 permits re-cross-examination as a matter of general
3 rule. We are fairly aware of decided cases which make
4 it an exception.
5 The provisions of Rule 85B are clear and
6 unambiguous and require no interpretation. We abide by
7 that rule.
8 This is our ruling on the matter. We still have
9 examination-in-chief, cross-examination and
10 re-examination. If any new matter arises or if the
11 interests of justice so require, further
12 cross-examination can be allowed.
13 We can then proceed to invite the witness, so that
14 we can continue with the cross-examination.
15 MS McMURREY: Your Honour, I had offered to the Registrar
16 earlier the videotape that we talked about yesterday
17 during the cross-examination of Mr Gotovac. I think it
18 is being marked, but I would like to offer it into
19 evidence at this point, as we discussed, and it is the
20 video that was shown yesterday in court.
21 JUDGE JAN: I46 you are referring to?
22 MS McMURREY: It was marked for prosecution identification
23 purposes I46. I am sure it will now have a D something.
24 JUDGE JAN: That portion.
25 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Only the portion
1 MS McMURREY: Yes.
2 JUDGE JAN: That was shown to the witness.
3 MS McMURREY: Thank you. Is it accepted? Thank you.
4 JUDGE JAN: Mr Turone, I just want to find out: the
5 statement which this witness has made, is it in his own
7 MR TURONE: I beg your pardon?
8 JUDGE JAN: This statement which you supplied a copy of, is
9 it in his own handwriting?
10 MR TURONE: No, your Honour.
11 JUDGE JAN: It is in the copy which we have given --
12 MR TURONE: He recognised only the signature.
13 JUDGE JAN: Thank you very much.
14 MR TURONE: You are welcome.
15 (Witness returns to court)
16 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Please inform the witness he is still
17 on his oath.
18 THE REGISTRAR: I remind you that you are still under oath.
19 Cross-examination by MR MORAN (continued)
20 A. Yes.
21 JUDGE JAN: Just a minute. Would it be more convenient for
22 you to come over there so we can also see you? We
23 cannot see you from here.
24 MR MORAN: That is fine, judge.
25 MR MORAN: May it please the court, sir.
1 Before lunch we were discussing some of the
2 conditions at Celebici and how the camp really had not
3 been designed to be a prison camp. Do you recall that,
5 A. Yes, I do recall, but my opinion is that there was this
6 military installation there, but from what I had known
7 before there had been some soldiers there, but they were
8 gone, and then there was some news on TV from Grude
9 about that. Somebody removed them from there so that
10 they wouldn't interfere, so it is my opinion that
11 somebody did it intentionally. There was an intention
12 to do so even before the war broke out there.
13 Q. Sir, let me -- for instance, on the area of medical
14 care, remember that you testified earlier that the day
15 after you arrived and you spent the night in the tunnel
16 that you were brought out for some medical care; do you
17 recall that, sir?
18 A. Yes, but it wasn't really any proper assistance. I just
19 was given a band aid. I had two quite large wounds on
20 my head that were cleaned there, and then they just
21 covered those wounds. They did not apply any
22 medication. I didn't get anything else. Excuse me.
23 That's why I later asked them to be allowed to put the
24 cap that I had found somewhere, to put it on my head.
25 Q. Right, sir. I understand. When you were there in late
1 May and early June, they had not set up an infirmary
2 yet, had they?
3 A. I don't know anything about an infirmary. I went to
4 that building one morning, which was supposed to be the
5 command building right there at the entrance. That's
6 where I went, and that's where I was given the band
7 aids. I don't know anything about any infirmary.
8 Q. That is right, sir. They were short of supplies, for
9 instance blankets. Do you recall that some people had
10 blankets and other people did not. Do you recall
11 testifying to that?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Do you recall, of course, testifying that a man that you
14 identified as Hazim Delic collected blankets and cut
15 them up and made sure that everybody had something for a
16 blanket. Do you recall that?
17 A. Yes, I do remember very well, because we from Bradina,
18 we arrived there practically naked, without coats,
19 without hats, just in our shirt sleeves, let alone any
20 blankets, and I know that there was this man -- there
21 were several of them actually -- but I think that he was
22 also among them, and that he did that.
23 Q. He was the man on crutches; right?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. By the way, when he was on the crutches, was he able to
1 get around well, or did it appear that it was hard for
2 him to move around because of his injury?
3 A. Well, I don't know really. Well, I had some
4 difficulty. I couldn't really tell you exactly. I
5 don't know what the matter was. I just know that he had
6 a bandage on his leg and he was on crutches.
7 Q. When you were at Celebici was there any shelling or
8 bombing of the camp or the area?
9 A. No.
10 Q. How about when you were in the sports hall at Marsala?
11 Was there any shelling there?
12 A. Yes, there was. I was there when two shells hit that
13 place and 13 people were killed inside in the hall
14 itself. I don't know where the shells had come from or
15 what happened.
16 Q. But it was a dangerous place to be, because it was in
17 the middle of the war zone, right?
18 A. I guess. It was dangerous indeed. Wherever there is
19 any shooting, it's dangerous, but there were no safety
20 measures. It wasn't very safe there. There was just
21 glass above on the roof, so it was very easy for the
22 shells to hit the hall and they hit the wall, and when
23 the wall crumbled, that's actually how those people got
24 killed. It was even more harmful than the shells
1 Q. A couple more questions, sir, and I believe I will be
2 through. Before we started our cross-examination you
3 were asked by one of the judges about the women and
4 children who were arrested in Bradina with you; do you
5 recall that?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Those women and children were never taken to Celebici,
8 were they?
9 A. Some were taken to Celebici, actually to Konjic. I saw
10 some of them there, some of them who I knew. They were
11 placed in room number 1, maybe five or six of them.
12 They were there for a while and then they were released.
13 Q. That is Konjic, not Celebici; right?
14 A. Yes, yes. I know about those in Konjic. I don't know
15 anything about the women in Celebici, because I was not
16 there for a long time, and I don't know anything about
17 that for the short time that I was there.
18 Q. Sir, one other area of questioning, and before I start
19 it, I do not want you to tell me where you reside now
20 specifically; is that fair enough? I read in your
21 statement and there was an indication that you are now a
22 resident of the United States; is that correct?
23 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Do you really want him to answer
25 MR MORAN: Judge, the follow-up is going to be I just want
1 to know if anyone from the Tribunal or from the Office
2 of the Prosecutor helped him gain his visa to live in
3 the United States. If they did not, that is as far as I
4 want to go, judge.
5 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Why do you need to ask that? It is
6 unnecessary. As far as the prosecution is concerned,
7 they protect this witness.
8 MR MORAN: Yes, your Honour. That is why I do not want to
9 know what it is specifically. If the court thinks it is
10 irrelevant, I will withdraw the question.
11 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: It is irrelevant.
12 MR MORAN: I have no problem with that, your Honour. With
13 that I pass the witness?
14 A. Thank you very much. I will not answer that.
15 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Yes. Who is it next for the witness?
16 Yes, it is for you.
17 Cross-examination by Ms McMurrey
18 MS McMURREY: May it please the court. May I proceed?
19 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Yes, you can.
20 MS McMURREY: Okay. Thank you. Dobodan, Mr Kuljanin.
21 A. Good afternoon.
22 Q. If the court would let me, I would just like to commend
23 you. It is so refreshing to have a witness who listens
24 to the question and responds in the manner you have
25 done. I want just to commend you for that. Thank you.
1 A. Thank you very much.
2 Q. Now, I just have a few questions I would like to ask.
3 Just for clarification, Mr Kuljanin, you did state that
4 the worst torture and beating that you received was from
5 Bradina to the tunnel, and I just want for
6 clarification: that tunnel was the road tunnel outside
7 of Bradina; it was not tunnel Number 9, was it?
8 A. Yes. That is that first tunnel where we were loaded
9 onto trucks, but this whole night until we arrived at
10 Celebici, until we arrived at tunnel number 9, that was
11 the hardest night.
12 Q. Yes. I understand what you have been saying, and I am
13 sorry that happened, and thank you very much. You also
14 told the judges that there were no real toilet
15 facilities at Celebici, but you did forget to tell them
16 that there was a bucket provided in Hangar Number 6 at
17 night for you all to use and then it was emptied during
18 the day, was it not?
19 A. No. I don't know anything about any buckets. While I
20 was there, there was no bucket. I don't know what
21 happened after I left, but while I was there, there was
22 no bucket.
23 Q. Okay. Thank you. Now, all the prisoners that you
24 described from Upper Bradina, you said they received
25 injuries before they were brought to join you in Hangar
1 Number 6, did they not?
2 A. Yes. On that same route from Bradina to Celebici and in
3 Celebici itself, while we were in Number 9, we heard the
4 trouble that they went through until they were placed in
5 Number 6, but I was in no condition to see them, but
6 from the voices and moans that we heard, this was the
7 only thing that we could hear.
8 Q. Thank you very much. Now, you did state before, and I
9 just want to make sure that I understand it, you state
10 that you did not know or recognise any of the guards at
11 Celebici, did you?
12 A. I will always say that, because I did not know them.
13 Q. Thank you. You also stated, I believe, that they just
14 seemed to carry out their instructions and their tasks,
15 did they not?
16 A. I don't know. They could have, but I said a little
17 earlier that right at the beginning it seemed to me that
18 everybody was doing whatever they wanted to. I don't
19 know if somebody was trying to prevent somebody else
20 from doing something. People were doing pretty much
21 what they wanted to do, and according to their purposes,
22 including civilians.
23 Q. So there were civilians present that evening; is that
24 what you are saying? I am talking about on May 27th.
25 Did you know that? I am sorry. Let me rephrase that
1 question. I am withdrawing that question actually.
2 Thank you. The prosecution introduced Exhibit Number
3 83, which was your statement that you gave at Celebici
4 on June 2nd, 1992; is that not true?
5 A. Yes, but there are some things that I don't agree with
6 in the statement. I don't agree that I went there and
7 that I was captured there, because you can only say that
8 somebody was captured when there was fighting. We were
9 actually just picked up as civilians.
10 Q. I was going to get to that in my next question. For
11 clarification's sake I was going to ask you that -- you
12 summarised -- in summary the inaccuracies that you claim
13 in the statement were that you didn't go on patrol with
14 the rifle, you merely went to your land to work it, I
15 believe; and also that you never said that Mr Ajanovic
16 was present; is that correct?
17 A. Yes, that is correct. I asked those people. They said
18 that I should go to the Commander. I thought that it
19 was Ajanovic, but again from the rumours I heard that
20 that person in charge was Zvonko Zovko.
21 Q. The statement you made, excluding the fact that you went
22 on patrol with the rifle and excluding the fact about
23 Mr Ajanovic and -- I have forgotten the term you used --
24 you were captured -- other than that the statement is
25 fairly accurate, is it not?
1 A. Yes, it is, but I was not captured. Again it is well --
2 the meaning of the term "captured" is well-known. It
3 can only be during fighting. It is a completely
4 different thing if somebody comes to your house and
5 picks you up.
6 Q. Thank you, sir. I agree with you. I think we have an
7 understanding here on what was said. Thank you.
8 Just to clarify, your father was not beaten on May
9 26th, was he? He was beaten after the military police
10 were killed near your village on July 12th, was he not?
11 A. Yes, that is right. I did not mention that, but it is
12 true. Among those police officers they visited us in
13 the sports hall, and they kept telling the elderly
14 people there that we would be returned to our homes, but
15 somebody didn't like that. So on 12th or 13th July the
16 place was completely cleansed and razed to the ground.
17 Right now Bradina is completely cleansed and probably
18 from the entire Konjic municipality there may be a few
19 elderly people here or there, but the entire area has
20 been cleansed. There is no-one alive there.
21 Q. It would be a fair characterisation that the population
22 responded to the murder of these military police, and
23 that is why Bradina was singled out to be burned on July
24 12th, whereas the other villages were not; is that
1 A. I did not understand fully, and I apologise.
2 Q. Okay. I will try to repeat again. Bradina was burned
3 to the ground, or more specifically your village of
4 Suljina Strana, I believe, and that was after July 12th,
5 when the military police were murdered close to your
6 village; is that not true? None of the other villages,
7 Bjelovcina or Borci or any of those others, they were
8 not burnt to the ground, were they, just the area where
9 the military police were murdered; is that correct?
10 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Actually are you trying to ask him to
11 give you a reason why Bradina was burnt?
12 MS McMURREY: I am trying to make it clear, yes, sir.
13 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: You want him to say that.
14 MS McMURREY: I was asking him if he knows.
15 A. I will try to give you an answer. There were a few
16 houses left after 26th, after the night on 27th, but
17 when these police officers were killed up there, I would
18 like to ask you: do you know who killed them? Do you
19 have any information about that, who killed them?
20 Q. Mr Kuljanin, I do not know who killed them, but was the
21 popular sentiment not that they thought that the
22 Serbians had done it? The Muslims thought the Serbians
23 had done it for some reason? That is my guess.
24 A. No. It was well-known who did it, because we would have
25 been in even worse trouble, but there was nobody there
1 of the Serbs. They did it among themselves. Again I
2 say I don't know who did it. I have absolutely no
3 knowledge of that. It was clear to the entire Konjic
4 and the military there that it was an internal strife,
5 that it was an internal conflict. That is the truth.
6 Q. Thank you very much for your opinion on that. I do not
7 know what is right, because I was not there. Thank
8 you. Just a couple more questions.
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. You told the judges that a guard from Celebici named
11 Zenga was seen at Musala wearing a white belt; is that
12 not what you said?
13 A. Yes, that's what I said, and I noticed him pass by. I
14 saw him twice. I don't know if I saw him any more
16 Q. And the time that you saw him in Musala with the white
17 belt was some time in July, was it not?
18 A. I don't know. I think it was July. I cannot be sure.
19 Q. Just another question: the white belt means that he
20 belonged to the military police, does it not?
21 A. I don't know what it meant. That's just what I noticed.
22 Q. You only knew the name Zenga and that he was a guard
23 from Celebici from your acquaintances in Musala; would
24 that not be safe to say?
25 A. Yes, and we heard rumours about him, that he treated
1 people badly down there.
2 Q. But you have no personal knowledge about anyone named
3 Zenga yourself, do you?
4 A. No.
5 Q. I pass the witness, your Honour.
6 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Mrs Residovic?
7 Cross-examination by Ms Residovic.
8 MS RESIDOVIC (in interpretation): Mr Kuljanin, good
9 afternoon to you.
10 A. Good afternoon to you.
11 Q. You have to answer all of our questions so every time
12 you feel you need a break, please let me know. My name
13 is Edina Residovic. I am the defence counsel for Zejnil
15 We both speak the same language, but it has to be
16 interpreted, and there may be great problems, so I would
17 like to ask you that when I ask you a question, if you
18 could wait with your answer, so that the interpreters
19 can translate, and I will also wait for a while after
20 your answer with my next question.
21 I think that we have reached an agreement on that?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Please allow me to ask you a few general questions which
24 you, as a person born in the Konjic area, would be
25 familiar with. You are aware of the events in the
1 springtime of 1992, so I will concentrate on those. Do
2 you agree?
3 A. Well, I am not a native of Konjic, in fact, because I
4 spent all of my working life more in Sarajevo and I had
5 more acquaintances in Sarajevo than Konjic. That's the
6 problem, but I did know some people but not many of
8 Q. Well, actually I am really glad. My father is also a
9 railroad worker, so we have that in common, but the
10 events in Spring 1992 you are familiar with them, so I
11 will ask a few questions about that.
12 Mr Kuljanin, you gave a statement to the
13 prosecutor on 23rd February 1996 in the US?
14 A. Yes, some time around that.
15 Q. You were told at that time that your statement can be
16 used before the International Tribunal in The Hague?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. And you confirmed that what is stated in the statement
19 has been accurately written down?
20 A. Yes. There may be some changes, but I always tried to
21 say the truth, and what I felt that was necessary for me
22 to say. I always say if only we weren't in a position
23 to meet here in this manner, because it would have been
24 better and easier for all of us, and we could have had a
25 different fate, but the events took their turn in a
1 different way.
2 Q. Thank you. You again confirmed today before the court
3 that you gave a statement in Celebici on 2nd June, and
4 you recognised your signature on that statement. You
5 did make some objections to the contents of the
7 After you arrived in The Hague, have you spoken to
8 the representatives of the Prosecutor's Office?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Did they on that occasion present to you or tell you
11 that they have in their possession your statement given
12 in Celebici?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. And that was the way in which you were reminded of what
15 you stated in Celebici?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. That is the reason why you remembered today that the
18 rifle that you handed over to those persons from
19 Repovci, that you received that rifle from Slobodan
21 A. Yes. These were, in fact, provocations at that time
22 already, because they simply came and they surrounded us
23 on our field and we had to hand it over. I didn't
24 resist. I didn't want to get killed there for no
1 Q. So in the statement that you gave to the prosecutor on
2 23rd February you did not speak the truth when you said
3 that you bought the rifle?
4 A. Bought the rifle? I didn't say that.
5 Q. But in that statement you did not state that you got it
6 from Slobodan Kuljanin?
7 A. In the statement in Celebici?
8 Q. No, no, the statement that you gave later to the
10 A. I don't know. When was I interrogated? I just know
11 that I was interrogated and that I gave the statement in
13 Q. Let us clarify the matters. You told me that you gave a
14 statement on 23rd February to the Prosecutor in 1996?
15 A. I don't know anything about buying the rifle.
16 Q. Then you said that you only had a pistol; you forgot to
17 mention the rifle?
18 A. Well, at that time I did not have it when these events
19 took place. I did not have the rifle.
20 Q. Slobodan Kuljanin gave you the rifle before the events
21 on 26th?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. You did not buy this rifle from Slobodan Kuljanin?
24 A. No.
25 Q. Please let me clarify: it was an M-48 rifle. It is a
1 type, a model of rifle?
2 A. Yes, I guess. As far as I know, these are the old
3 rifles used by the army from before.
4 Q. It is an old army rifle; it is not a hunting rifle?
5 A. Yes, you are right.
6 Q. You could not get a permit for such a rifle according to
7 our laws?
8 A. I don't know. Maybe. You could get a permit for a
9 carbine, but at that time I did not seek a permit. I
10 did not know who to seek it from at that time.
11 Q. In your statement in Celebici you also said that your
12 son, Novica, had an automatic rifle?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Is that correct?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. He received that rifle from Glavan Vojacic; correct?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. His Commander was Petro Djordjic and his Platoon
19 Commander Ramko Djuzar; correct?
20 A. If you want me to tell you correctly, I don't know.
21 Q. Yes. If you do not know, just say "no".
22 A. No. I don't know if they were commanders. I don't
23 know. I can't dream of those things.
24 Q. In other words, you, Mr Kuljanin, in your statement to
25 the Prosecutor, you said none of the inhabitants of
1 Bradina was armed or offered any resistance?
2 A. I am not saying there were no arms but there was no
3 resistance, because if there was resistance, they are
4 casualties on both sides. Some side may be stronger
5 than others, but there are victims on both sides.
6 Q. Mr Kuljanin, before the war you were a citizen of
7 Bosnia-Herzegovina at the time?
8 A. No, of Yugoslavia.
9 Q. Well, there was a dual citizenship. At that time there
10 was dual citizenship, Republic of the State of
11 Bosnia-Herzegovina and Yugoslavia?
12 A. I think you were a Yugoslav in the Republic of
14 Q. If you do not know the regulations, we are not going to
15 discuss them.
16 A. Okay. No need to.
17 Q. But you have never renounced the citizenship of
18 Bosnia-Herzegovina? Have you ever officially renounced
19 the citizenship of Bosnia-Herzegovina? Have you ever
20 requested for your citizenship to be taken away?
21 A. How do you mean "taken away"? For me in every republic
22 you were a citizen of Yugoslavia and that's where I
23 thought my country was. There I was a Croatian,
24 Serbian, Croatian, Macedonia, regardless of where I
25 was. My citizenship was Yugoslav.
1 Q. It was mine too, yes, but in the republics we also had
2 republican ones. All right, Mr Kuljanin. I do not want
3 to discuss these rules, these regulations. I only ask
4 of you: have you ever up until May of 1992 and following
5 May 1992 requested to be -- to leave the citizenship of
7 A. Who should I ask that of?
8 Q. Well, you had a citizenship of Bosnia-Herzegovina.
9 A. I don't know to whom.
10 Q. So you did not ask of anybody?
11 A. No. No, and I didn't even have the right conditions for
13 Q. All right. Thank you. Did you know that in April 1992
14 in Bosnia-Herzegovina mobilisation was proclaimed?
15 A. Whose mobilisation?
16 Q. The Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina, the territorial
17 defence of Bosnia-Herzegovina?
18 A. I don't know. I don't know.
19 Q. Did you personally or your son volunteer to become
20 members of the Territorial Defence of Konjic?
21 A. No, no, but I have a question for you. Can I ask it?
22 Q. It is unusual, but ...
23 A. Well, if the Chamber will admit -- well, if they do, did
24 anybody from Bosnia-Herzegovina pull out and renounce
25 the Yugoslav citizenship? Did anybody do that?
1 Q. I do not know what we are talking about here.
2 A. Well, here --
3 Q. Bosnia-Hercegovina proclaimed its independence and
4 became independent on 6th April 1992 according to the
5 international rules. Okay.
6 What I am asking you: you and your son Novica did
7 not answer to the mobilisation of the Konjic
9 A. Who asked that?
10 Q. The Presidency of Bosnia-Herzegovina?
11 A. I don't know about this Presidency, but please, I mean
13 Q. You should have answered me.
14 A. I apologise.
15 MS McMURREY: I do not know if you are all having problems,
16 but I cannot understand where one stops and the other
17 one begins with the interpretation. Is there some way
18 that we could either slow it down or -- I think one
19 other time when we did this, they had a different voice
20 for each different party, but I cannot understand which
21 one is which as we are going through. I am asking for
22 clarification on that, please.
23 JUDGE JAN: I have the same difficulty.
24 MS McMURREY: Thank you.
25 MS RESIDOVIC (in interpretation): Thank you, your Honour.
1 I will slow it down and maybe we should also change the
3 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Thank you very much.
4 A. Absolutely. I would like that too. Absolutely. That
5 is also sort of shooting the breeze.
6 Q. Mr Kuljanin, we have an expert and we can continue our
7 discussion later, but now I can continue with the
9 A. We do not need to. We are not politicians to be
10 discussing this. We have other things here.
11 Q. Mr Kuljanin, can you please tell me: do you know
12 Strahinja Zivak, also known as Straho?
13 A. Yes, I know him.
14 Q. He is your neighbour from Brdjani?
15 A. Well, it would be our neighbour from Konjic, you know.
16 That's how we would call it. I am not from Konjic.
17 Q. Do you know that at that time he was involved to a
18 greater extent in arming the Serbian population in that
20 A. I don't know that.
21 Q. Do you know that he personally, before the automatic
22 rifle, had given a semi-automatic rifle?
23 A. No, I don't know that either.
24 Q. Do you, Mr Kuljanin, know that Rajko Djordjic was one of
25 the main organisers in Bradina, ringleaders in Bradina?
1 A. What for?
2 Q. For what I am talking about?
3 A. For something?
4 Q. For arming and putting blocks around Bradina?
5 A. I don't know if he had anything -- was involved in that,
6 but in what sense do you mention the blocks or blockade
7 of Bradina?
8 Q. Can you tell me whether the armed population of Bradina
9 put up points in Bradina and people could not travel
10 from Konjic to Sarajevo freely because of those
12 A. I did not know that that was there. I know there were
13 some checkpoints and that the rail blockade started when
14 the tunnels on both sides of Bradina towards Sarajevo
15 and Konjic were blown up, and then we had a real
16 blockade. When those two tunnels were blown up, then
17 there was the blockade. Now who blew them up ...
18 Q. I did not live there. If somebody was to say that since
19 mid-April from Sarajevo to Konjic and from Konjic to
20 Sarajevo due to the blockade created by Serbs in Bradina
21 you could not travel along the M17 road, you would say
22 that these people who claimed that would be speaking --
23 would not be speaking the truth; is that what you are
25 A. Would not?
1 Q. If somebody else was to say, if it is written in other
2 documents that after 15th April you could not travel
3 freely through Bradina because of the road blocks put up
4 by the armed population there, that you could not travel
5 to Sarajevo or to Konjic, then these people would be
6 lying; is that what you are saying?
7 A. What I will say, when there were barricades put up,
8 could you go to Konjic or anywhere else?
9 Q. Please, I would appreciate if you would answer my
10 question with an answer and not with a counter-question?
11 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Will the witness please try only to
12 answer questions and not to ask questions. You are only
13 here to assist the Tribunal. You answer questions. You
14 do not ask.
15 A. But can I -- when I am answering something, can I also
16 ask questions?
17 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: No. You do not ask questions. You
18 answer questions.
19 A. I don't know of that.
20 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: That is what it should be here.
21 MS RESIDOVIC (in interpretation): Mr Kuljanin, Slobodan
22 Kuljanin gave up the rifle, as we already said. He also
23 gave you 45 bullets; is that correct?
24 A. Yes, and they took them all away together with the
1 Q. All right. Can you please tell me, you stated today
2 that you went to your field?
3 A. I did not just state that but it is true.
4 Q. Did Slobodan Kuljanin give you that rifle for you to
5 take it with you when you planted your potatoes?
6 A. I took it with me.
7 Q. Well, it was probably not the intention of Mr Slobodan
9 A. I don't know. We already felt that there were all kinds
10 of bad things going on. There was a blockade and people
11 were accosted and people were -- we did not think that
12 it would be the worst, but we wanted to have it for our
13 personal safety defence. It was not to inflict anything
14 on anybody.
15 Q. Mr Kuljanin, your neighbour, Rajko, took a
16 semi-automatic rifle with him on that day?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. In your statement that you gave to the Prosecutor on
19 26th February you said that Captain Ajanovic, Hamza
20 Ajanovic, told you about the guarantees for free,
21 unobstructed movement and of the need to surrender the
23 A. Not to me. He was talking that to someone else, but
24 that's how it came out. He was talking about some Nedjo
25 Kuljanin, who was a teacher at that time in the village
1 of Repovci, and the conversation was with him.
2 Q. All right. Thank you very much. I would just like to
3 clarify what you already said. At the time when you
4 were arrested you were arrested, as it is stated in your
5 statement, ten to fifteen persons. You did not
6 recognise any of those persons. Was that accurate?
7 A. Yes. I knew some by sight but I did not know them by
8 names. You mean when it was in the village or before?
9 Q. No, no, right at the beginning in the village?
10 A. Oh, dear lady, there were not ten or fifteen. The whole
11 village was crawling with soldiers.
12 Q. Well, I apologise. I will now quote to you very
13 precisely. You saw many soldiers but:
14 "We were arrested by ten to fifteen armed
16 A. Arrested whom?
17 Q. You, you personally?
18 A. No. They found me in front of the house with my wife
19 and children and my elderly father, but if it was -- if
20 that was taking prisoner around the village, there were
22 Q. Please, you said that your late father was not taken
23 with you at that time?
24 A. He was not.
25 Q. They did not take Vaso Kuljanin who was aged 60; is that
2 A. No, they did, but they did not put him in the group of
3 five, six -- there were five or six of them. So they
4 did not put him where they were tying people up, but I
5 was put there.
6 Q. In your statement you also said that you saw HVO
7 soldiers beat or kill your neighbour Drago Kuljanin; is
8 that correct?
9 A. Was that the HVO? I don't know who that was but they
10 had black uniforms. That I saw. I saw that clearly.
11 Q. You gave an answer to that several times, but please
12 clarify to me as well?
13 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Ms Residovic, I think we will rise and
14 reassemble at 4 o'clock, so you can continue your
16 (3.30 pm)
17 (Short break).
18 (4.00 pm)
19 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: The witness is still on oath.
20 Ms Residovic, carry on with your
22 MS RESIDOVIC (in interpretation): Thank you, your Honour.
23 Before the break I had just one question that I
24 wanted to ask before thanking him for his very detailed
1 Mr Kuljanin, you stated before this court that the
2 next day, the second day after your arrival to Celebici,
3 you were given some kind of medical assistance, and then
4 you mentioned the name of a doctor. Is this doctor
5 Ahmet Jusufbegovic and the nurses of the Health Care
6 Centre in Konjic?
7 A. Yes, I knew Dr Ahmet Jusufbegovic and I saw him there.
8 Q. Since there was an error in the name of the person that
9 you mentioned, you now state that this was Dr Ahmet
10 Jusufbegovic, the manager of the Health Care Centre in
11 Konjic; is that correct?
12 A. I know that I saw Hamo. Is that Ahmet?
13 Q. He is called Ahmet. Thank you very much. I apologise
14 if some questions were made in such a way that you could
15 not answer precisely. Thank you, your Honours.
16 A. Thank you.
17 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: That is the last of the
18 cross-examinations? Any re-examination for him?
19 MR TURONE: Your Honour, we have no more questions for
20 re-examination. Thank you.
21 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: I think you can --
22 JUDGE JAN: Just a minute. Are you not exhibiting the
23 document which you were showing the witness, the
24 statement which he made before to the investigator?
25 MS RESIDOVIC (in interpretation): No, your Honour.
1 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Now you are discharged. Thank you
2 very much.
3 A. I would like to thank your Honours. I am noticing that
4 there are people from around the world here, so I would
5 like to thank you and wish you all the best.
6 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Thank you very much for your
7 contribution and assistance.
8 A. Thank you again, and again I repeat I wish that we were
9 not here dealing with this matter, but it has to be that
11 (Witness withdrew from court)
12 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Who is your next witness?
13 MS McHENRY: Good afternoon, your Honours. Our next
14 witness is witness F, and I understand that there will
15 have to be some sort of break or recess while the
16 appropriate protective measures are taken in the
18 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Will it mean more than putting down
19 the screen and making some adjustments?
20 MS McHENRY: Your Honour, I understand from our protection
21 expert Ms van Dusschoten, it is putting up the screen
22 and then lowering all the blinds so the witness can then
23 come to the witness stand and then opening them again.
24 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: That can be done while we are
25 sitting. It will not take too long a time.
1 MS McHENRY: Your Honour, I assume that we will be advised
2 by the video section if there is some additional time
3 needed for the video distortion of the witness's face.
4 I believe they are indicating to me that that is fine.
5 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Let us carry on with the process of
6 getting it done: I hope there is no reflection inside
7 which might be seen outside. Put down the curtains:
8 Which of the witnesses do you say you are
9 calling? F?
10 MS McHENRY: Yes.
11 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: F is not being shielded from the
12 accused persons.
13 MS McHENRY: Not from the accused persons. I believe this
14 is merely to shield him from the public.
15 JUDGE JAN: That screen is obscuring the view of the
16 accused. Now you can see the witness and he can see the
18 MR GREAVES: I was going to raise that your Honour. One of
19 the important things is to see the demeanour of the
20 witness. I was going to say I could not see him, but I
21 can now.
22 JUDGE JAN: You can see from outside whether or not it will
23 be visible from the public gallery. You can go out in
24 the public gallery and see whether or not the witness
25 will be visible.
1 MS van DUSSCHOTEN: I can have a look, but I do not think
3 MS McHENRY: It appears that you would be able to see the
4 way they are now; at least from this angle I can see the
5 last two glass panels.
6 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: We are trying not to obscure the view
7 of the accused persons.
8 MS McHENRY: Yes, your Honour. I am not trying to obscure
9 that view.
10 JUDGE JAN: Mr Greaves and Mr Mucic need to see.
11 MR GREAVES: I can certainly see Ms McHenry at the moment.
12 JUDGE JAN: What about your client? You can ask him.
13 MR GREAVES: Might I take instructions from him?
14 MS McMURREY: While we are doing this, could I ask Ms
15 McHenry a question about this next witness?
16 JUDGE JAN: You can walk over to her and talk to her.
17 MS McMURREY: Thank you.
18 MR GREAVES: Your Honour, the position is my client cannot,
19 in fact, see the witness from where he is sitting. I
20 would imagine with a little bit of shuffling of chairs
21 the defendants could be asked to move up a bit for just
22 this one witness and endure a bit of discomfort.
23 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Pull out that wing of the screen and
24 he might be able to see. There is a possibility of all
25 of them seeing the witness, those behind
1 THE TECHNICIAN: This way is safe from the public.
2 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Leave the public alone.
3 MR MORAN: A slight suggestion. If we did not raise the
4 last two blinds, that would probably solve the problem.
5 Raise the ones in the middle but not the last ones.
6 THE TECHNICIAN: It's okay like this.
7 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: I think you can get the witness in.
8 The fear is perhaps there might be a reflection from
9 there showing on the outside screens. That is the fear.
10 JUDGE JAN: Ms McHenry, are you satisfied now.
11 MS McHENRY: Your Honour, I am going to rely on the experts
12 and if they tell me this is appropriate, I am willing to
13 rely on them.
14 MS McHENRY: Your Honour, we are going to proceed, but Ms
15 van Dusschoten is going to go out in the public gallery.
16 JUDGE JAN: Satisfy yourself.
17 MS McHENRY: May I just have verification that the video
18 distortion is in place? Thank you.
19 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Swear the witness.
20 WITNESS F (sworn)
21 Examined by MS McHENRY
22 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: You can carry on.
23 MS McHENRY: Thank you, your Honours.
24 Sir, am I correct that you have requested that
25 your name and identity not be released to the public or
1 to the media?
2 A. (in interpretation): Yes.
3 Q. You will thus be known as Mr F; is that all right?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Am I correct that you are now 43 years old?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Sir, what is your ethnic background?
8 A. Serbian.
9 Q. In May of 1992 where were you living?
10 A. In Bradina, in the hamlet of Krc.
11 Q. Approximately how big is the hamlet of Krc?
12 A. Very small, eight houses.
13 Q. Who lived in your house with you, sir, not their names
14 but just their relationship, if any, with you?
15 A. My wife and my child, who was two years old.
16 Q. At that time in May of 1992 what was the ethnic
17 background of most of the inhabitants of Bradina?
18 A. Most were Serbs.
19 Q. In May of 1992 was there any military action in Bradina?
20 A. I apologise. I did not understand. In May of 1992?
21 Q. That is correct, sir. Was there any fighting or --
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Okay. When was this that there was some military action
24 in Bradina?
25 A. May 25th 1992 I was at home around 12 o'clock. The
1 shooting started from outside and Bradina is in a valley
2 surrounded by hills. From the hills the shooting
3 commenced. It intensified and after the shooting, the
4 shelling started; the shells started falling around the
5 houses. At that time I came out of the house with my
6 child and went to the basement, which was covered with
7 concrete. That went on until late in the evening. That
8 night I returned to the house, brought some bedding and
9 blankets, returned to the basement with my wife and
10 child and spent the night there. The next day at the
11 break of dawn, that was 26th May 1992, there was mortar
12 and gunfire all over the place. I was in the cellar
13 with my wife and my child, and I was joined by my
14 father, mother and sister. We spent the entire day
15 there in the basement until the evening.
16 In the evening we gathered, people from the
17 village. There was not many of us, and we started to
18 move to go to the village of Barakusa. When we arrived
19 there it was already dark. We arrived in Barakusa where
20 other inhabitants of Upper Bradina and Barakusa had
21 already gathered. There we discussed where to go, what
22 to do and we all spent the night in different houses but
23 also in the basements. Myself, my wife and my child
24 spent the night --
25 Q. Sir, let me go back for one moment. At the time that
1 the shelling or the shooting started were you armed?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. How were you armed?
4 A. I had an automatic rifle.
5 Q. How long had you had that rifle?
6 A. I had it since December of 1991.
7 Q. Where did you obtain your rifle?
8 A. I bought that rifle because I worked in the restaurant
9 business, and I bought it in front of the restaurant
10 where I worked, and a civilian came and asked how much,
11 since at that time through the media I knew that people
12 were already arming themselves, and because of the fear
13 that I had I bought that weapon and I brought it home.
14 I heard from my mother, who in 1941 remained
15 without her father -- she never met him -- she told me
16 about the events of that time. So because of that fear
17 I bought the rifle. I had two clips with rounds. I
18 never used this gun, because when the shooting started
19 and the shelling from all sides, I was paying more
20 attention to my child than to anything else.
21 Q. So, sir, during the attack did you take part in any
22 armed defence of your village?
23 A. During the attack I did not take part in the defence,
24 because that defence did not even exist as far as I
25 know, because on May 25th we were attacked and on 26th
1 already the Lower Bradina was on fire, and I heard later
2 that people had been killed there.
3 On 27th, when I moved to Barakusa, we were
4 surrounded by all sides and they told us to lay down the
5 arms, and I did that as well as the ammunition, the
6 quantities that I had. They registered what I handed
7 over, what it was, and looked whether the rifle was shot
8 from. It was also interesting that there was a
9 foreigner, who was wearing a black uniform, and he was
10 checking the weapons. Of the people there I recognised
11 Redzo Balic, but the rest I did not know when they came
12 over to us.
13 Q. Had that weapon been fired? Were they able to verify
14 whether or not the weapon had been fired?
15 A. Yes. This foreign national checked it and saw that the
16 weapon had not been fired.
17 Q. What happened next, sir, briefly?
18 A. After that they lined us up. There were women and
19 children and elderly, and we, the villagers from the
20 three villages, the Lower Bradina, Donje Selo and
21 Barakusa, we started towards Bradina. We came 1 km off
22 Bradina to Mica Kuljanin's cafe.
23 They separated us from the elderly people and from
24 the women. The women were put in front of Dragan
25 Subotic's house and they put us in front of Mica's
1 cafe. They were taking out all things from the cafe,
2 whereas the elderly were across the street, on the other
3 side from us.
4 Then they told us to turn over all our belongings
5 that we had on us. That's when they took all the
6 personal jewellery, the money and watches that we had.
7 They took that, and then they started beating us. I was
8 the second. In front of me was Zdravko Gligorevic, who
9 was an attorney in Sarajevo. His parents lived there,
10 so he came to visit. He had a beard and they beat him
11 until he fell unconscious, and then they turned to me
12 and they beat me. It was a sort of a cable and they
13 beat me over the head, and I fell unconscious. This was
14 all observed by my wife, my parents and my child.
15 After I fell unconscious -- I don't know how long
16 that lasted -- they took us further towards Bradina,
17 more precisely, to the tunnel where the railroad tracks
18 were, and there was a retaining wall which was five or
19 six metres tall. Then they lined us up against a wall.
20 We put our hands up, took off our shoes, and they
21 searched us again, and they said that they -- they wrote
22 down everything we had.
23 Q. Can I ask you to go please a little more slowly?
24 A. In the meantime while we were being searched a truck
25 with a canopy arrived and behind this vehicle there were
1 soldiers in camouflage uniforms standing on both sides.
2 We had to pass them in order to climb into the vehicle.
3 At that time I was maybe the sixth or the seventh, but
4 as each person passed, they beat them with some sticks,
5 with rifle butts, and pieces of wood, I don't know how
6 to explain them, with many different objects that were
7 at hand. We climbed in the vehicle and when we all
8 climbed in, they pulled down the canvas of the canopy
9 and then we were in the van for about one hour and then
10 we started going towards Konjic.
11 Q. Where were you brought, sir?
12 A. They took us to Celebici. That was the camp where I
13 spent six months. When we arrived to Celebici, they
14 pulled up the canopy, and -- I apologise. What I
15 skipped, when we climbed onto the vehicle, we were
16 stripped. We only kept tee-shirts or shirts. Then we
17 climbed down from the vehicle and they lined us up
18 against a wall which was something like 3 metres tall,
19 and we had to put our hands up. When we all climbed
20 onto the vehicle, they started beating us.
21 Q. Sir, let me interrupt for one second. What was the date
22 then when you were actually brought to Celebici?
23 A. 27th May 1992.
24 Q. Approximately what time of day was it when you were
25 brought to Celebici?
1 A. I think it was between 12 and 1 o'clock, but since
2 nobody had a watch -- all that had been taken away from
3 us -- I think it could have been between 12 and 1.
4 Q. Can you estimate how many persons were brought to
5 Celebici at the same time as you were?
6 A. When I came along the way, they also picked up people
7 from Kuljani, and that was across from Mica's cafe, and
8 houses were already on fire and the whole village was
9 burning. Then further down at the Jaila restaurant the
10 others who lived around that area were also picked up.
11 So there was about 70-80 people from Bradina altogether.
12 Q. Please continue with what happened when you first
13 arrived at Celebici. What happened?
14 A. At that time terrible beatings started with different
15 objects. We were leaning against a wall in shirts and
16 undershirts. They beat us with crowbars, with sticks,
17 with rifle butts, kicked us and there were a lot of
18 them, and they took turns.
19 I heard my father's wailing. He was born in
20 1926. He was five or six people to the right of me, and
21 then he said "Zovko, please don't." "Who is Zovko?", and
22 cursed him. He said: "I'll gag you with the sock."
23 That hurt me more than everything I had suffered until
24 that moment.
25 Then Milan Gligorevic, the third person away from
1 me, lay down on the asphalt, and started beating him
2 mercilessly. He was telling me to lie down on the
3 asphalt and kiss it and start pulling my own hair. I
4 did it. It was a person that I don't know who it was.
5 He said: "That's not how you do it." Then he took me by
6 the hair and hit my head into the asphalt and that pain
7 started. They beat me with all kinds of objects and I
8 injured my left arm below -- above the hand, and I had a
9 partial fracture. Then I started groaning. When it was
10 over, they turned me back and started beating me with
11 the rifle butts again and told me to raise my arms
12 again. I couldn't raise it because it hurt so much I
13 could not hold it. They beat me again with rifle
14 butts. Then I dropped to my knees, and I asked them to
15 give me some water, because I was thirsty. There was
16 something like a stream. It was not a stream really.
17 There was some water down there. Then he told me:
18 "Here, you cattle, go and drink." Then I started
19 drinking and he said: "Enough. That's enough!"
20 Then I returned to the wall and I stood there
21 without being able to lift my arm. To the left of me
22 stood Miroslav Vujcic and next to him his brother,
23 Radoslav. At that time they told Mirosalv Vujcic to
24 step out and lie down on the asphalt. He knelt and then
25 they hit him several times. When he saw what I had gone
1 through and what he was about to get, he started
2 running, and, maybe it was about 20 metres of me,
3 somebody said: "Shoot", and then there was a burst of
4 fire. It was heard and Miroslav was killed there. His
5 brother Radoslav, who was standing next to me, said:
6 "My God! They killed my brother, Miro." The person who
7 did that was a certain Makaron.
8 We stood there. They kept beating us. They
9 ordered if somebody else attempted to escape that they
10 should be shot, but you could not run away anywhere
11 because everything was fenced off.
12 We stood there until the evening. I do not recall
13 how long. Then we were brought to the Hangar Number 6,
14 and it was dark by that time, and they turned on the
15 lights. The hangar was empty, a concrete floor. We sat
16 down there and we spent the night; that night we spent
18 Q. Sir, when you were being beaten on the 27th in Celebici,
19 could you tell whether or not the people were soldiers
20 or civilians or from certain military groups? Can you
21 tell us what you could observe concerning that?
22 A. There were people in camouflage uniforms and in black
23 uniforms as far as I could see, but since I was facing
24 the wall I don't know how many of them there were, and
25 many of them took turns doing that.
1 Q. Did you see whether or not the people in camouflage
2 uniforms, what kind of insignia they had, if any?
3 A. I didn't see anything at that time, because I was facing
4 the wall.
5 Q. Thank you. Did I understand you correctly that the
6 brother of Miro Vujcic, Radoslav Vujcic, that he was
7 standing next to you?
8 A. Yes. After the killing of Miroslav he was standing next
9 to me. There was Miroslav Vujcic, Radoslav Vujcic, his
10 brother, and then when they took out Miroslav, Radoslav
11 remained next to me, standing to my left.
12 Q. To your knowledge were any other detainees seriously
13 injured or killed during that occasion on the 27th, when
14 you arrived in Celebici?
15 A. I didn't know anything about that day. We were
16 transferred to Number 6. I lay there and then after a
17 while -- I don't know how many days -- the men who had
18 been brought in on 26th May, who were in Number 9, were
19 transferred to Number 6. They were all bandaged up,
20 black and blue. Their heads were injured and so on.
21 Q. Can you -- you were brought to hangar 6. Can you
22 briefly describe what happened the next day, after you
23 were in hangar 6? I am sorry. Can you describe what
24 happened to you that night, if anything, in Hangar
25 Number 6?
1 A. When I was brought in that night in Hangar Number 6 some
2 persons unknown to me came in. I don't know -- I didn't
3 know them. They looked at us. They talked to each
4 other. They were saying things I don't remember now,
5 because I was in a very serious condition that night
6 until the next morning, and then the next morning we
7 were taken out to urinate to the left of the hangar.
8 There was a concrete pavement there.
9 At the exit to the hangar a soldier in an army
10 uniform sat on a wooden crate. He had crutches next to
11 him. It was at the entrance to the hangar on the
12 left-hand side. Since I held my left arm in my right
13 hand and my shirt was pulled out of my trousers, he told
14 me: "Why do you look like that?" I told him that I could
15 not do anything about it, because my arm hurt. So I
16 listened to his orders and I went in and sat on my
17 place. Radoslav Vujicic sat next to me and I told him
18 about it. He told me that he used to work with that man
19 and that his name was Hazim Delic.
20 Q. Sir, when you say that you obeyed his orders, what
21 exactly do you mean?
22 A. Sorry, I didn't understand.
23 Q. I am sorry. Did you just state that the person with
24 crutches, you listened to his orders?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. What orders were those? Can you just explain that? Did
2 he tell you to do something?
3 A. My shirt was outside of my trousers and my undershirt,
4 and he told me to put it in. He told me that I should
5 pull myself together, and look tidy. I could not do
6 that because my left arm was hurting, and I was holding
7 it with my right hand. So I pulled up my trousers. I
8 managed to do that with just one hand, and I went in and
9 sat down on my place.
10 Q. Okay. Thank you. Were there other prisoners in Hangar
11 Number 6 before you and the group you were with were
12 brought to hangar 6?
13 A. The hangar?
14 Q. Yes, sir.
15 A. All of the 80 people, all of the people, us people were
16 Bradina, all 80 of us.
17 JUDGE JAN: Your question probably was a different one.
18 Was the hangar empty at that time when he went?
19 MS McHENRY: Sir, if you know, before the group of 80
20 people were brought to hangar 6, were there already
21 other prisoners being kept in Hangar Number 6?
22 A. No. We were the first ones to arrive in Hangar Number
24 Q. After your group was brought into Celebici, in the next
25 -- in the subsequent days were other detainees brought
1 to Celebici, to your knowledge?
2 A. Yes. After a certain time -- I don't recall exactly how
3 many days it was -- a group of people was brought in.
4 They were brought into Celebici on 26th May, and they
5 were located in Number 9, and then they were transferred
6 from Number 9 to our place. There were about 70 of
7 them, something like that, 70, maybe 80. I don't know
8 how many of them.
9 Q. Were there also other detainees in the next week after
10 you were brought to Celebici, where detainees were
11 brought in from outside the camp, if you know?
12 A. I don't remember how many days later. Some people were
13 brought in from Celebici, Bjelovcina; later from
14 Brdjani, Konjic and other places.
15 Q. What, if anything, did you observe about what happened
16 to them when they were brought to the camp?
17 A. Those second group that came in from Number 9, they had
18 been beaten very severely, and you can see that on their
19 faces, because they had been beaten all over their
20 heads. Some had bandages on their head. Some were
21 black and blue. Some had bruises on the eye or under
22 it. You could see the marks, the wounds on their
23 heads. These were the people who had been brought it on
24 the 26th before us and then they were placed in Number 9
25 and transferred later to our place.
1 Q. Do you remember any specific detainees whose injuries
2 you were able to see?
3 A. I remember Vukasin Mrkajic, who was all black and blue.
4 I could hardly recognise him. I remember Mirko Kuljanin
5 who had a bandage on his head. There were quite a few
6 of them but I can't remember now. It's been five years
7 now so I can't remember their names, but there were
8 quite a few of them with serious injuries.
9 Q. Sir, was there a time when -- soon after you were
10 brought to Celebici -- when there was a group of persons
11 brought in who had come from the Igman area?
12 A. As far as I could hear later, people from the Igman area
13 were brought into Number 9 and those people from Number
14 9 were transferred to Number 6.
15 Q. Do you remember any detainees from that group, and if
16 you observed anything about their condition?
17 A. The detainees were in a serious condition when they were
18 transferred from Number 9 to Number 6. One couldn't
19 recognise them.
20 Q. Are you aware, sir --
21 A. I apologise. I just remember one group arrived from
22 Igman. Pero Mrkajic, Radoslav Kuljanin and others were
23 among them. They were brought in at night. This was
24 horrible, the moans, the cries, the screams. Then they
25 were put in Number 6. There was no light. It was
1 dark. We didn't know who they were, but then when the
2 day broke, we saw who they were.
3 Q. Was one of those people Pero Mrkajic?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. What was his condition at that time?
6 A. Where?
7 Q. When you saw him the next morning in Hangar Number 6?
8 A. He was in a really bad condition. When he was thrown in
9 he fell right in front of my legs. He lay down there
10 and that's where he remained. In the morning we moved a
11 bit and he sat next to me, third or fourth from me. He
12 could hardly breathe and he couldn't speak.
13 Later on they brought in a wooden crate and he lay
14 on it for a while. He couldn't go out. Stevo
15 Gligorevic helped him out and Bosko Samoukovic helped
16 him later.
17 As for the food we received which was really
18 minimal, a slice of bread, he couldn't eat that either.
19 He was there for a while and then he was transferred to
22 , and later I heard that he died in number 22.
21 Q. Can you approximate for me when it was that Pero Mrkajic
22 was brought into Hangar Number 6? About how long had
23 you been in Celebici when he were brought into the
24 hangar approximately?
25 A. I couldn't remember exactly, but I think it was at the
1 beginning of June. I can't recall the exact date. The
2 beginning of June, somewhere around there.
3 Q. Sir, can you tell us, if you know, approximately how
4 many people were kept in Hangar Number 6 during the time
5 you were there?
6 A. For a while there were 248 of us there, people in Number
7 6. Then the people from Brdjani, Bjelovcina, Cerici,
8 Donje Selo, Konjic and other villages such as Blace were
9 brought in.
10 Q. Can you describe for the court what the conditions were
11 like when you were kept in Hangar Number 6?
12 A. The conditions were really bad. The floor was
13 concrete. We lay down on the concrete. The food was
14 virtually non-existent. We got -- our meals consisted
15 of one slice of bread and these meals were not regular.
16 Each loaf of bread was cut into 12 or 15 slices. Later
17 on we got some soup, and we were only allowed two
18 spoonfuls. I remember on one occasion Drago Djordjic
19 took one more spoonful and then he was beaten for that,
20 and five or six spoons -- five or six, I can't recall
21 exactly, were for the use of all of us and we ate from
22 the same bowl. This was not washed at all. It was all
23 placed on a crate. At first it was located to the right
24 of the entrance on a wooden crate, and some people
25 didn't dare to go out, because they were afraid they
1 would be beaten, and later on the food was distributed
2 inside the hangar close to the door, again to the
3 right. The conditions were really very bad.
4 We went to the toilet in the morning and in the
5 evening at first. We lay down on the concrete floor.
6 The conditions were really extremely bad.
7 Q. Were you interrogated while you were in Celebici?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Approximately when was that?
10 A. It was in the beginning of June. I can't remember the
11 exact date. I think it was either 2nd, 3rd or the 4th
12 June. We were taken somewhere towards the entrance, to
13 the gate. I was questioned outside of a building. I
14 don't remember precisely, because I was very afraid. We
15 went up there and we were questioned.
16 Q. Do you remember who questioned you, what kinds of
17 questions were asked? Can you please describe that?
18 A. I can't remember very precisely. I remember that they
19 asked me if I had any weapons.
21 "Were you a member of the SDS?"
23 "Did you fire your weapon?"
25 "Are you sure?"
1 "I'm sure."
2 "How much ammunition did you have?"
3 I said how much ammunition I had. That was 60
4 rounds, and I signed something there and that was it.
5 They also asked me where I was at the time and I
6 explained everything, just as I said to you, that I was
7 at home with my child and my wife in the basement and
8 that I went to Barakusa. I explained everything to them
9 on the occasion of my questioning.
10 Q. Were you able to read this statement before you signed
12 A. No.
13 Q. Sir, besides what you have already told us about, did
14 you observe any mistreatment while you were in Celebici?
15 A. Yes, I did.
16 Q. I would like you to go, please, very slowly, and if you
17 can give an approximate time, if you remember, and just
18 describe one incident at a time. Can you please tell us
19 the first incident that you remember besides what you
20 have already told us about?
21 A. The first incident that happened in the camp was again
22 some time in June. I don't know the exact date. When
23 we were supposed to go to urinate, I was among the first
24 to get out. I went to the hole that was dug up to the
25 right of the hangar. Then I started to defaecate and
1 three people came. They wore camouflage uniforms and
2 had automatic weapons with them. They passed me by. I
3 got up, and they told me to squat down and to defecate
4 on the five-point star, and then I saw below me there
5 was a police hat with the star, and I remained there.
6 They went on to the hangar. I don't know who it
7 was who they called out, but I heard the noise in front
8 of the hangar, and I heard blunt blows. All of a sudden
9 there was a burst of fire. I jumped up, pulled up my
10 trousers and ran into the hangar. In the meantime I saw
11 Miso Kuljanin, nicknamed Coba. The three of them were
12 standing above him and he tried to get up two or three
13 times, and then he was dead. I ran into the hangar
14 without even buttoning up my trousers. I sat down, and
15 the whole thing quietened down.
16 Then later on the same day some people came in. I
17 don't remember who they were. They asked: "Who
18 witnessed the murder of Miso?" Since it was the turn of
19 five or six people to go out, Janko Glogovac, Spasoje
20 Miljevic and Zjelko Cecez saw that, and they asked Janko
21 Glogovac: "Did you see it?", and he said: "No". They
22 said, going to Cecez: "Did you see this?" He
23 said: "Yes". They took him out for a while and he went
24 back in. I didn't dare to say that I also saw that. So
25 I escaped that fate, and they again said: "Did anyone
1 else see?" I did not say that I had seen, and that same
2 night Zjelko Cecez was taken out at night. I don't know
3 who took him out, because it was at night. He went out
4 and we could hear -- you could hear his moans for a
5 while, and then after a while he was thrown into the
6 hangar. Then his moans were heard in the hangar. He
7 was asking for water. I don't know if anyone gave him
8 some water, and in the morning we saw Zjelko Cecez
9 dead. He was on the floor with one arm stretched out
10 and one arm next to his body. He was dead there, that
12 Q. Sir, when you said you did not see who took him out,
13 because it was dark, was the hangar lighted at night --
14 hangar lit at night?
15 A. No. The only time that the hangar was lit was the first
16 night when we arrived.
17 Q. Did you ever witness any other acts of mistreatment?
18 A. Yes. I remember a man by the name of Jovanovic. He was
19 an elderly man. He sat next to the tin sheet, next to
20 the entrance. One night he was called out by Esad
21 Landzo, nicknamed Zenga. He got out and also he had
22 gotten out before that. He had been called out before
23 and on that night when he was called out, he was most
24 likely beaten, because we could hear in the hangar his
25 moans --
1 MS McMURREY: Your Honour, I am going to object to this
2 line of questioning. First of all he said the hangar
3 was dark and now he says he identifies someone but he
4 also said he heard something outside but he does not
5 know what went on outside.
6 JUDGE JAN: You can cross-examine him when your turn comes.
7 MS McMURREY: Okay. Thank you.
8 A. Let me tell you, it was dark. There was no light, but
9 when I say that Landzo took him out, he has a very
10 peculiar voice, and I was able to recognise him. I
11 should have told you -- I am sorry -- that I recognised
12 his voice. Everybody in the hangar knew his voice.
13 When he spoke, everybody knew. We heard the moans
14 because the sheet metal, the tin, was the only thing
15 that stood between us. He was crying for his mother.
16 That's what we heard. Then he was brought back in and
17 he was dead in the morning.
18 Q. Can you estimate approximately when this was that
19 Mr Jovanovic was taken out?
20 A. In June. It was in June.
21 Q. Can you describe any other incidents that you have
22 information -- that you have knowledge of?
23 A. Then Bosko Samoukovic, who sat on the same side at the
24 entrance on the opposite side of the entrance next to
25 the tin, he was taken out by Landzo, and Landzo asked
1 him: "What's your name?" "My name is Bosko Samoukovic".
2 He had on a railway worker's shirt. First he beat him
3 on the sides and then he told him: "Take off the
4 shirt." He took a plank, which is maybe 5 or 6 cms
5 wide, and beat him on the kidneys until he knocked him
6 down, and when he knocked him down, he started beating
7 him with a rifle butt.
8 Q. Where was this happening, sir? Where was the beating?
9 A. It happened in the hanger in front of all of us. We
10 were all able to see that. He beat him with the rifle
11 butt until he fainted. He was then taken out and then
12 Brane Gligorevic got out. He was a male nurse. He
13 worked as a nurse in the Konjic hospital. Then when he
14 got back he said he was sitting as the second to my
15 left, and he said that his tongue had fallen into his
16 throat and that he had managed to pull it out. He was
17 then transferred to number 22.
18 The next day -- all this was happening in front of
19 us, and two of his sons, Milan Samoukovic and Nedeljko
20 Samoukovic, and his brother, Spasoje. Then the next
21 morning Hazim Delic came, and, as usual, it was
22 well-known who he would be beating. Nedeljko
23 Samoukovic, his son, was among that group. He told him
24 to get up and everybody knew what he was supposed to do,
25 to put up his arms and turn his back, but Nedjo asked
1 him in the meantime: "Excuse me, sir, Commander, can I
2 ask you, how is my father?" He said: "Which one?" "The
3 one who was taken in last night, Bosko Samoukovic". He
4 looked him in the eye and said: "He's dead. Sit down."
5 Then Nedjo Samoukovic was not beaten that day, although
6 he was beaten regularly every day and abused with
7 Vukasin Mrkajic, Dusko Bendjo.
8 Q. Could you please tell us in what way they were
9 mistreated? What were you able to observe about how
10 Nedeljko Samoukovic and these other people were treated?
11 A. Every morning when he got into the Number 6, Hazim Delic
12 would come to Samoukovic, I mean Nedeljko Samoukovic.
13 He would make two steps, put his hands behind his head
14 and then he would kick him. Sometimes he would kick him
15 on both sides; sometimes several times, or also
16 sometimes he carried a bat, a wooden bat. I heard later
17 that it was called a baseball bat, he used it to beat
18 people with. He was the person whom he beat most
19 severely together with Vukasin Mrkajic, Dusko Bendjo,
20 and then Vukalo, whose first name I forgot. They were
21 beaten almost every day. Also Radoslav Kuljanin, and as
22 for Landzo, he had the same people plus Zoran Djordjic,
23 and also some other people that he would pick out, but
24 these were the regulars.
25 Q. When you say that Landzo had some of these same people,
1 what do you mean he had some of these same people?
2 A. I mean to say that when Delic was not around he was
3 doing the same thing with these people. He was making
4 them get up and beating them, and in addition to them,
5 those other people that I named, Zoran Cecez, as I said,
6 Drago Djordjic, and many, many others whose names I
7 can't remember.
8 Q. When you say he was doing the same things to this group
9 of people, who is the "he" you are referring to?
10 A. I mean Esad Landzo, nicknamed Zenga.
11 Q. You also, sir, mentioned Radoslav Kuljanin. Can you
12 tell us what, if anything, you observed happened to
13 Radoslav Kuljanin?
14 A. I didn't understand the question.
15 Q. If I am correct you just indicated that you saw Radoslav
16 Kuljanin mistreated. Did you observe Radoslav Kuljanin
17 ever being mistreated?
18 A. Radoslav Kuljanin.
19 Q. Excuse my pronunciation. Yes, sir. Can you please tell
20 us what, if anything, you observed with respect to him?
21 A. When Radoslav Kuljanin was brought in from Igman, he was
22 beaten at the entrance to the hangar, and he sat right
23 to the left of the entrance, and he couldn't for maybe
24 five or six days eat. He couldn't open his eyes, and he
25 just drink some water, and he could hardly move. He was
1 really very badly beaten.
2 Q. Is that the only time that you yourself saw Mr Kuljanin,
3 Radoslav, mistreated?
4 A. After that Radoslav Kuljanin was also beaten in front of
5 all of us. That was done by Hazim Delic. He beat him
6 several times and every morning he knew and he would
7 say: "Oh, my God! Here it comes!" Then he started
8 begging: "Please don't beat me", but he was beaten every
9 morning, like all the other people that I mentioned just
11 Q. Sir, was there a detainee named Scepo Gotovac in the
12 camp to your knowledge?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Approximately how old was Mr Gotovac?
15 A. He was born in 1921 or 1922.
16 Q. Where did he sit approximately in the hangar?
17 A. He sat right next to the entrance to the right. He was
18 the first one, because he was the first one who got in
19 that day. I remember very well when Scepo Gotovac
20 arrived, he sat behind the door to the right. Then
21 after a while -- I don't know how long a period of time
22 -- Hazim Delic walked in. He had a paper in his hand,
23 and he read out very loudly so that everybody could hear
24 "Gotovac, Scepo". He said: "I am." He said: "Get
25 up." He got up and then he said: "In 1942, I think, you
1 killed on this very spot two Muslims and you will stay
2 here", and he said: "This is not true. I don't know
3 anything about that." He hit him several times about
4 the head and once in the stomach, and he fell down.
5 Then he took him away -- he took him by the
6 shoulder, pushed him out, and then one could hear his
7 cries. He was thrown in and for a time actually until
8 the evening it lasted, and then he was called out
9 again. I don't know who it was who called him. He
10 said: "I can't get up." "Carry him out." Somebody
11 carried him out.
12 Then after more moans from him, he was brought
13 back in. Then in the morning they said that Scepo was
14 dead. So he came in, he was beaten and he died on the
15 same day.
16 Q. Okay. Sir, while you were at the camp did you have
17 occasion to hear about an alleged incident in Repovci?
18 Let me spell this for the translators, please.
19 R-E-P-O-V-C-I, Repovci.
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Approximately when was this that you heard about this
22 alleged incident?
23 A. I heard about that incident I think on the same day.
24 Zmijomesa came to the Celebici camp and said that some
25 police officers were killed near Repovci and that night
1 there will be trouble. That night, that evening, I
2 think in the afternoon -- I don't know what the exact
3 time was -- Hazim Delic came and said: "What are you
4 guys doing up there? They are killing our police
5 officers", and he cursed our mother. Then he started
6 beating people one by one, and he ordered Zenga: "This
7 is what the people from Bradina are to get for
8 breakfast, lunch and dinner", and from that day on in
9 the evening we did not receive any dinner. We were
10 forbidden water, food. All of us from Bradina had to
11 get up, and Zenga continued with his game. From that
12 day on every single day we were beaten one by one.
13 Zenga went from one to another and beat us.
14 Q. Approximately how long did this treatment last?
15 A. It lasted for a time. I don't know how long. I can't
16 remember, but it was quite a long time. I think maybe
17 until the time when Bosko Samoukovic was killed, that we
18 were beaten regularly every day, we people from
19 Bradina. We had to get up every morning, the people
20 from Bradina, and every day it went on. We were even
21 forbidden water and food and other things. It was
22 really so hot and very hard without the water.
23 Q. Were you yourself beaten during these occasions, or just
24 other people from Bradina?
25 A. I was beaten on that day, when this happened, when Hazim
1 Delic came, and then again on one occasion by Landzo,
2 nicknamed Zenga. He kicked me twice, and that was all,
3 but he beat the others regularly.
4 Q. Was there a detainee named Zjelko Klimenta in the camp,
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Can you tell us what, if anything, you observed happened
8 to him and the approximate time-frame, if you know it?
9 A. I think it was in early August. Zjelko Klimenta sat in
10 the corner, five people away from me, in the very corner
11 of the hangar, and then one morning, it was early, about
12 5.00 am, Zoran Tomovic came for him and told him to go
13 out and have coffee with him. He said: "I don't want
14 to." So he went back and then later on somebody called
15 him from the outside. I don't know who it was. He got
16 up. He was in a grumpy mood. He went out. After a
17 time we heard a shot. Kujundzic and Zoran Tomovic
18 walked in. Kujundzic held his head in his hands and he
19 said: "Keljo was killed." That's what he was called,
20 Keljo, and he sat down in his place.
21 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: I think this is a convenient point to
23 MS McHENRY: Thank you, your Honour.
24 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Tomorrow morning we will continue with
25 this witness.
1 MS McHENRY: Thank you, your Honour.
2 MS McHENRY: Sir, I just ask the witness, just to be clear,
3 the witness to stay where he is. Thank you.
4 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: The witness stay where he is. Do not
5 move until we all get out. The Trial Chamber will rise
6 and reassemble tomorrow morning at 10.00.
7 A. I understood.
8 (5.30 pm)
9 (Hearing adjourned until 10.00 tomorrow morning)