Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 1555

1 Wednesday, 2nd April 1997

2 (10.00 am)

3 Mr Stevan Gligorevic (continued)

4 Cross-examined by Ms Residovic (continued)

5 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Good morning, ladies and gentlemen.

6 Can we have the witness in?

7 (Witness entered court)

8 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Kindly remind him he is still on his

9 oath.

10 THE REGISTRAR: Sir, I remind you that you are still under

11 oath?

12 A. Yes.

13 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Ms Residovic, you are still

14 cross-examining.

15 MS RESIDOVIC (in interpretation): Thank you, your

16 Honours. Good morning, Mr Gligorevic.

17 A. (In interpretation): Good morning.

18 Q. I would like to go back now to what we were talking

19 about yesterday. Mr Gligorevic, when I asked you

20 yesterday, you responded that in Celebici you were

21 questioned by just one person; is that correct?

22 A. Yes. I was questioned by just one person.

23 Q. And in your statement given to the Prosecutor last year

24 you stated that there were three persons. One was a

25 Croat and there were two Muslims. Taking into account

Page 1556

1 the passage of time, can you tell me that you remember

2 now clearly that there were three persons?

3 A. Maybe there was a misunderstanding. I was personally

4 interrogated but by one judge. I don't know whether he

5 was a judge actually. The others were questioned by

6 another judge at another place, but in front of the same

7 building. I don't know his name.

8 Q. Thank you very much. You also stated that you signed in

9 Cyrillic and that they provided both the questions and

10 answers?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Does that mean, Mr Gligorevic, that they wrote down what

13 they wanted?

14 A. Precisely so.

15 Q. Can you remember what it was that they wrote down? Did

16 they write that you had a weapon?

17 A. Yes, they did.

18 Q. Ammunition?

19 A. Yes, and also that I was -- used it to shoot.

20 Q. Although it was not correct?

21 A. Not at all.

22 Q. You signed a statement in Cyrillic?

23 A. Yes, I did. That judge forced me to do so. He said:

24 "Yes, you are a teacher. You should know Cyrillic

25 script. Please sign in Cyrillic".

Page 1557

1 Q. Maybe the Trial Chamber is not familiar with our

2 alphabets. Can you please now sign on this paper in

3 Cyrillic and in the Roman alphabet. Can I please ask

4 the usher to provide assistance? Thank you, your

5 Honours. The only reason for this is I want to tell you

6 in Bosnia-Herzegovina both scripts were in use, both the

7 Cyrillic and the Roman script. Since the witness spoke

8 about the manner in which he signed his statement,

9 I think that I will need the signature in the course of

10 my cross-examination. Thank you very much and thank

11 you, Mr Gligorevic.

12 This statement, was it typed?

13 A. No, it wasn't.

14 Q. It was written down by hand by one of the interrogators?

15 A. Yes, it was.

16 Q. Mr Gligorevic, you did that because you thought that if

17 you did not sign, you would endanger your life?

18 A. Yes, that is correct.

19 Q. So did they read the statement out to you later?

20 A. The judge read out the statement and he said -- he told

21 me to sign it.

22 Q. So when he read the statement to you, you remember that

23 he wrote down that you had weapons?

24 A. Yes. I had to put that there.

25 Q. Do you remember what weapon you had?

Page 1558

1 A. No. I think that he wrote down that it was a rifle,

2 I think M-48.

3 Q. Did he mention any rounds?

4 A. He also said ...

5 Q. Did he -- was it written down who issued the rifle to

6 you?

7 A. I don't know. I can't recall that.

8 Q. Are you familiar with the name of Branislav Gligorevic,

9 nicknamed Beko?

10 A. Yes, I know him from Bradina.

11 Q. Does the statement contain that you were issued the

12 rifle from him?

13 A. I can't remember that now.

14 Q. Is it written in the statement that you took part in

15 keeping watches or sentries in Bradina?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Is it written there that the night before your arrest

18 you were on a position in the wood called Gaj further up

19 from the village of Upper Bradina?

20 A. I don't know for sure where, although it was written

21 down, but I can't recall that now. I can't recall

22 anything about the place where I was.

23 Q. So you remember some details because this man read out

24 the statement to you?

25 A. He read it out. Whether it was actually what was

Page 1559

1 written there I don't know.

2 Q. During the questioning and the signing of the statement

3 you were not abused?

4 A. No, I wasn't, but I was threatened.

5 Q. Mr Gligorevic, if the facts that you were talking about

6 now were true, can we then agree that these facts during

7 a state of war would be significant for a person who was

8 questioning you?

9 A. No, I don't know the reason for.

10 Q. If other Serbs from Bradina were to confirm you did have

11 all those things that were written down in the

12 statement, do you claim they are not telling the truth?

13 A. I did not understand your question well.

14 MR OSTBERG: I object to this question, your Honour. It is

15 trying to make him say things that has no foundation in

16 the investigation or anywhere else.

17 MS RESIDOVIC (in interpretation): Your Honours, you heard

18 the objection of the prosecutor. My Defendant is

19 charged with particular offences, amongst other things

20 the allegations that are the subject of my

21 cross-examination. He is charged as a direct

22 perpetrator, not only as having command responsibility.

23 I think I have the right during cross-examination to ask

24 pertinent questions of the witness. Will you allow me,

25 your Honours, to continue with my cross-examination?

Page 1560

1 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Actually I am afraid the witness has

2 started by denying the statement which was credited to

3 him, and he has stated it was made under threats, which

4 strictly speaking is inadmissible. I do not see how you

5 can continue on that line. Statements which are

6 obtained by threats or duress are inadmissible. It is

7 on the basis of that statement you are making this

8 cross-examination.

9 MS RESIDOVIC (in interpretation): Your Honour, I think

10 I may be wrong and thank you for your caution, but I can

11 investigate the truth of what this witness is talking

12 about. I appreciate your remarks and I do not think

13 that I will continue questioning in this vein. He

14 confirmed that he had been questioned and in which

15 manner and I will now move on to my other questions, but

16 I would like you to allow me to ask this witness the

17 questions about that, because these have to do with the

18 allegations against my client. Thank you very much.

19 Mr Gligorevic, you stated that you had come to

20 Hadzici?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Can you please tell me: do you know that the JNA from

23 Hadzici supplied in secret the weapons to Bradina?

24 A. No.

25 Q. Do you know that two shipments of weapons came to Zara

Page 1561

1 Mrkajic in Bradina. These were fifty rifles?

2 A. No, I don't.

3 Q. Are Hadzici adjacent -- municipality adjacent to the

4 Konjic municipality and they attach in the part of

5 Bradina?

6 A. Yes, they are.

7 Q. You testified before the Trial Chamber that you were a

8 teacher both in Bradina and in Hadzici?

9 A. Yes, that is correct.

10 Q. We know that, but can you confirm that at that age the

11 children are being taught the geography of their area?

12 A. Yes, I can.

13 Q. Mr Gligorevic, can I then show you this map and ask you

14 to recognise or to point out the places that I am

15 talking about? Can this map be given to the witness,

16 please?

17 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Will the usher kindly assist in taking

18 it to the witness?

19 MR OSTBERG: Please put it on the ELMO so we can see what

20 is shown to the witness.

21 MS RESIDOVIC (in interpretation): Yes. Thank you,

22 Mr Ostberg. I just wanted to suggest that.

23 Mr Gligorevic, would you be so kind as to point on this

24 map where Sarajevo is located?

25 A. Yes, here.

Page 1562

1 Q. Can you then locate Konjic?

2 A. Yes, I think it's here, yes.

3 Q. Can you now please point to the main route from Sarajevo

4 to Konjic?

5 A. I think this is it.

6 Q. Yes. Can you now point to Bradina, please?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Mr Gligorevic, can you now point to where Hadzici is?

9 A. I don't know. Somewhere around here, I think, between

10 Sarajevo and Konjic.

11 Q. Can I please ask you to put a mark with a pen on that

12 place and write down Hadzici as you think they are

13 located?

14 A. Somewhere around here, I think more or less. I couldn't

15 point it exactly.

16 Q. I would like to ask you just to put it. Nobody is going

17 to check on our ability to produce maps, but this is

18 approximately where Hadzici is.

19 Mr Gligorevic, can you please tell me where is

20 Pozaric?

21 A. Pozaric is, roughly speaking, between Hadzici and

22 Bradina.

23 Q. Can you please mark the spot where Pozaric is located?

24 I would also like you to point to the place called

25 Tarcin. Thank you very much, Mr Gligorevic. I would

Page 1563

1 like to ask you now: Tarcin and Pozaric are local

2 communes that belong to the municipality of Hadzici?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. I would now like to ask, since the witness has written

5 down the maps, I would like to tender this as Defence

6 Exhibit D1/2.

7 MR OSTBERG: May I ask: to prove what?

8 JUDGE JAN: But this is a defence exhibit, because

9 I believe she is trying to get at, that the services

10 were supplying arms to Bradina. These were the places.

11 This was of course on the main route to Sarajevo.

12 MR OSTBERG: It can be understood in that way.

13 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: She is merely laying the background

14 for the next evidence.

15 MS RESIDOVIC (in interpretation): Thank you very much,

16 your Honours.

17 As a teacher in Hadzici, you knew that Hadzici was

18 a strong centre of the former JNA; is that correct?

19 A. I did not spend a very long time in Hadzici. I was

20 there shortly.

21 Q. Are you aware of that fact?

22 A. I am aware that they had plant and factories for

23 maintenance there, maintenance both of cars, vehicles

24 and probably also weapons. Also military vehicles.

25 Q. Thank you. Is the fact that you had come to Bradina

Page 1564

1 from such a place the basis for the way you were treated

2 as a detainee in Celebici?

3 A. Nobody has told me that.

4 Q. The investigating commission in Celebici did not tell

5 you that? Do you think they could have suspected that

6 there was some kind of connection?

7 A. I don't believe that.

8 Q. All right, Mr Gligorevic. Since you do not have that

9 kind of knowledge, I would like to repeat this group of

10 questions and please can you verify that I understood

11 you correctly. You gave a statement in Celebici outside

12 of the command building, squatting down; is that

13 correct?

14 A. Yes, that is correct.

15 Q. You gave it to one person?

16 A. Yes, that is correct.

17 Q. The statement was written down by hand by the

18 investigator?

19 A. Yes, it was.

20 Q. The statement was read out to you by the investigator?

21 A. He read it out, but whether it was actually written

22 down, what he read, I don't know.

23 Q. You signed a statement in Cyrillic script?

24 A. Yes, I did.

25 Q. That was the only questioning that you were subjected

Page 1565

1 to?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Thank you, Mr Gligorevic. I will now go on to a

4 different kind of questioning. You confirmed before

5 this court that in early October you were transferred

6 from Celebici to Musala prison?

7 A. Yes, on October 4th.

8 Q. At Musala you probably heard of the tragic case when the

9 sports hall was shelled, when a dozen prisoners died?

10 A. Yes, I heard about that, but I was not there at that

11 time.

12 Q. But while you were there, did you hear that even before

13 that and after that shells fell close to Musala every

14 day?

15 A. Sometimes they fell near and far.

16 Q. It also happened when you were at Musala; is that

17 correct?

18 A. Yes, that is correct.

19 Q. Mr Gligorevic, as regards your exchange, the

20 investigation against you and the proceedings conducted

21 and for which you claimed that the proceedings were not

22 conducted at all, I would like to ask you several more

23 questions. Do you know that a certain number of Serbs

24 from Bradina were convicted by the Mostar District

25 Tribunal?

Page 1566

1 A. I cannot tell you exactly how many of them. What

2 I know, there were two people from Bradina in that case.

3 Q. Can you tell us their names, please?

4 A. One was Branislav Mrkajic. He was sentenced to nine

5 months' imprisonment. This sentence, he served it, but

6 he was not released up until he was exchanged. The

7 second one was Dravko Djordjic from Ludici.

8 Q. Thank you. I would now like to show you a document, and

9 I would like to ask you to confirm what the document is,

10 if you can. I apologise, your Honours. I left the

11 document there at my desk. I would like to ask for this

12 document, together with the translation, to be submitted

13 both to the Trial Chamber and to the Prosecutor and to

14 all the defence counsel: this is for Mr Gligorevic:

15 Mr Gligorevic --

16 MR OSTBERG: Your Honour, before the questioning, the first

17 thing that strikes me is the date is 14th January

18 1992/3. I do not know what is the correct -- what would

19 be the correct date of this document.

20 JUDGE JAN: 14th January 1993. 2 has been corrected to 3.

21 MS RESIDOVIC (in interpretation): Can I continue, your

22 Honours? I would like to ask for the signature given by

23 Mr Gligorevic to be placed under the ELMO.

24 Mr Gligorevic, is this your signature?

25 A. It looks like my signature, but I do not remember this

Page 1567

1 statement.

2 JUDGE JAN: Which one is your signature? There are about

3 five persons who have signed it. Which one is his

4 signature? Number 2, number 3, number 4, number 5,

5 which one?

6 MS RESIDOVIC (in interpretation): I think that

7 Mr Gligorevic should tell us which his signature is?

8 A. Well, my first and last name are where it is written:

9 "Statement given by".

10 But I think this is falsified, this is forgery.

11 I can't remember that, can't remember the statement at

12 all.

13 Q. This record, is this the record from Celebici?

14 A. More or less I think so.

15 JUDGE JAN: Which one resembles your signatures?

16 A. I told you --

17 JUDGE JAN: Which one resembles your signature?

18 A. The one on the right-hand side, your Honours.

19 JUDGE JAN: Oh, I see. Thank you.

20 MS RESIDOVIC: You said that the statement was made by

21 hand?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. This record was typed. Mr Gligorevic, you said you were

24 questioned by one person?

25 A. Yes.

Page 1568

1 Q. And here you were questioned by five people?

2 A. I do not know what we have here. This kind of

3 interrogation -- this interrogation never existed, this

4 can only be falsified. I think if you have to undergo

5 such a thing, you can't forget it, and I do not remember

6 anything apart from what I've told you about in

7 Celebici.

8 Q. Sir, this has to do with the questioning at Musala?

9 A. According to what is written, yes.

10 Q. Under number 1 there is the signature of the

11 interrogator. Can you recognise the last name?

12 A. Probably ... no.

13 Q. Can I help you maybe? Do you recognise the name of

14 Jasminka Dzumhur?

15 A. I know that person very well. In the times of the

16 former Yugoslavia we used to work together for the

17 municipality. She was a very high official in the

18 municipality and I was some kind of a representative in

19 the local commune of Bradina, so we used to meet quite

20 often.

21 Q. Mr Gligorevic, your signature on this statement was not

22 done in Cyrillic?

23 A. No, but whoever wanted to sign with my signature.

24 Q. Are you -- does the name of Pozdar Ismeta mean anything

25 to you? It is right there in the middle.

Page 1569

1 A. I do not know her personally, but I think she was at

2 Celebici.

3 Q. Mr Gligorevic, do you know that in December 1992 a

4 commission was established and its task was to

5 interrogate all the detainees in Celebici once again?

6 A. I do not know about that. What I know is that some

7 people later on were taken to court, that court was in

8 the same place where it used to be previously, at the

9 junction in the centre of the town, but just very few

10 people, just a couple of people. Two or three went to

11 Buturovic Polje. There was also some kind of a court

12 there. That was also just a few people.

13 Q. Let me ask you just once more: you confirmed that this

14 is your signature?

15 A. No, I do not. I said it looked like my signature, but I

16 do not remember signing anything like that.

17 Q. I do not refer to the contents of the text. I just

18 refer to your signature. Is that your signature?

19 A. It resembled my signature.

20 Q. Your Honours, may I suggest that since the witness

21 assumes that this could be his signature that this

22 document also be tendered as the next Defence Exhibit.

23 One more thing, your Honours. I told you yesterday that

24 I received some documents from the Konjic court, where

25 the court questioned persons -- the persons signed here

Page 1570

1 under number 1 and they determined there was a mistake

2 in the date. They claimed that the statement was given

3 on 14th January 1993. Yesterday we had these documents

4 translated and I would like to tender, together with the

5 other documents that I will present to the witness, that

6 these documents be tendered as defence exhibits. Is it

7 accepted as D 1/3?

8 MR OSTBERG: Your Honours, we object to putting in these

9 documents. The witness has said that it resembles his

10 signature, but he can't confirm that he ever signed it.

11 He says he can't recognise it. He says that he has

12 never been through interrogation like this. There are

13 some difficulties with the dates and we do not know how

14 these are produced. I think this calls for some

15 investigation and I cannot see any possibility to bring

16 in a document with questions like this one. He has not

17 recognised it and not authenticated it. So I object to

18 it being admitted as evidence in this case. Thank you,

19 your Honours. I think I will come back to this question

20 any way.

21 JUDGE JAN: Can you produce some witness who can prove this

22 document later? Will you produce some witness who will

23 say he signed it in his presence?

24 MS RESIDOVIC (in interpretation): Yes.

25 JUDGE JAN: Then we can mark it at this stage for the

Page 1571

1 purpose of identification.

2 MR OSTBERG: Of course, your Honour. If a witness can be

3 produced who says he took this statement and he signed

4 it in his presence, then of course I have no objection,

5 but for the time being --

6 JUDGE JAN: Let it be marked.

7 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: -- it could not be.

8 MS RESIDOVIC (in interpretation): Your Honours --

9 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Listen. During cross-examination this

10 witness stated clearly -- there are authorities that

11 when a witness says something by threats or duress that

12 document could not be admissible. It is not admissible

13 in the way in which you dealt with it. He signed it

14 after threats. He said he was not familiar with those

15 things that were written. They just read them to him.

16 So he could not in those circumstances claim them. I do

17 not see how you can identify them.

18 MS McMURREY: Just for clarification, if I might, I believe

19 the court is confused because there are two statements.

20 The first one at Celebici Miss Residovic is not trying

21 to get marked because that is the one he stated he made

22 under duress. This one he never made under duress. For

23 clarification purposes this is the statement given at

24 Musala not at Celebici, so you know there are two

25 statements we are talking about.

Page 1572

1 JUDGE ODIO BENITO: I am not confused.

2 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: I am not confused at all.

3 JUDGE ODIO BENITO: It is clear there are two statements.

4 MS McMURREY: Maybe I was confused. Thank you.

5 JUDGE JAN: But you will produce evidence that this

6 document was signed voluntarily by him, so for the

7 purpose of not exhibiting it, we can mark it so we know

8 which document we are talking about.

9 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: No, he could not even, except he is

10 identifying it himself. If he identifies it you can

11 then tender it for identification and it might not be

12 admitted until it is proved, not before then.

13 JUDGE JAN: We are not exhibiting it. We are just marking

14 it for purposes of identification.

15 MS RESIDOVIC (in interpretation): Your Honours, can this

16 document be marked and then accepted as Defence Exhibit

17 at the time when the defence provides valid evidence

18 that this is a valid document?

19 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Do you not think it is safer for you

20 even at that stage to prove it through who you think can

21 prove it? It is easier. If somebody can vouch these

22 things were done in his presence, you tender it to him.

23 He will give his statements and it will be admissible as

24 such.

25 MS RESIDOVIC (in interpretation): Your Honours, I have

Page 1573

1 here with me the last page of the statement given by

2 this witness to the prosecutor last year. This part of

3 the statement is signed with the signature that is

4 completely identical. Can the Trial Chamber have a look

5 at that signature?

6 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: If you are trying to prove his

7 signature, you can prove it whichever way you can. If

8 you have an identical signature, you put it to him and

9 then know how to go about it.

10 MS RESIDOVIC (in interpretation): Can the witness have a

11 look at this undisputed signature from the statement

12 given to the Prosecutor, please.

13 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Yes, you can do so. Show it to him.

14 MS RESIDOVIC (in interpretation): Now we have three

15 signatures: the undisputed signature on the statement

16 given to the prosecutor; the signature made before this

17 court; and the signature on the document. I would like

18 that all three signatures be placed on the ELMO, just so

19 that the witness could identify his own signature.

20 Can you now show the second signature that you

21 signed here? Is this your signature? This signature

22 here, is that your signature?

23 A. Yes, it is.

24 Q. Can you now show the signature that you signed now

25 before this court?

Page 1574

1 A. This one here.

2 Q. Yes, the upper one. This is your signature in Roman

3 script?

4 A. Yes, that is.

5 Q. And the signature on the document dated 14th January

6 1993. Can you now confirm that this is your signature?

7 A. No, I can't. I am telling you I can't recall. I don't

8 think that interrogation ever took place, and I think

9 you can always forge a signature. By the way, I would

10 like to know if you know the members sitting on this

11 committee. Apart from Jasminka Dzumhur, who were the

12 members who were on the committee?

13 Q. We would like the Trial Chamber to mark for

14 identification purposes the document where the witness

15 recognised his signature and the document on which the

16 witness placed his signature today and the last page of

17 his statement given to the prosecutor, where he

18 identified his signature as undisputedly his?

19 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Actually trying to show the identity

20 between the signatures, among the three signatures, that

21 they are identical, that is what you are trying to show.

22 MS RESIDOVIC: Yes, your Honour, and I would like to ask

23 for these two undisputed signatures be marked for

24 identification purposes as defence exhibits.

25 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: I do not know what it is for.

Page 1575

1 MR OSTBERG: I object even to that. If the first document

2 cannot be admitted, if it is not authenticated, what

3 good do the other two do? He can just accept "I wrote

4 these two signatures" but the third one cannot be

5 compared with it because it is not admitted.

6 JUDGE JAN: Or she wants them exhibited so later on they

7 can be compared.

8 MS RESIDOVIC (in interpretation): Just for identification

9 purposes. I do not intend to use them in any other way.

10 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: All you want to show is that the

11 signatures are identical. That is possible. I see

12 nothing wrong in that, but if, apart from that, you want

13 to go further, merely because they are identical that

14 ... problems might arise. Only for identification of

15 the signatures, then that is acceptable.

16 MS RESIDOVIC (in interpretation): Thank you very much.

17 Just for identification purposes.

18 Can you now please present to the witness the

19 following document for identification?

20 MR OSTBERG: Your Honours, we would like to see a

21 translation and a copy of this before it is put to the

22 witness, and the court also.

23 JUDGE JAN: Yes.

24 MS RESIDOVIC (in interpretation): Would you be so kind as

25 to distribute the translation of the document?

Page 1576

1 MR OSTBERG: We need the original also, please.

2 MS RESIDOVIC (in interpretation): The original is on the

3 ELMO.

4 Mr Gligorevic, is this document written by you?

5 A. I think so.

6 Q. Did you sign this document in your own hand?

7 A. I think I did.

8 Q. Mr Gligorevic, you gave this document a year after your

9 arrival to Celebici. That was in June 1993; is that

10 correct?

11 A. That is the date here. Probably it happened like that.

12 Q. In this document you wrote that you had been abused on

13 the occasion of your arrest; is that correct?

14 A. I did not read this. Could I please read it first in

15 order to see whether that is what is written?

16 Q. You also stated that all your property was destroyed?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. You also wrote down in your own hand what kind of

19 weapons you had and who you received it from; is that

20 correct?

21 A. That is what is written, although one needs to write

22 that down so as not to have a different statement from

23 the one at Celebici.

24 Q. So, Mr Gligorevic, you recognised -- you identified this

25 statement as having been written in your hand and signed

Page 1577

1 in your hand?

2 A. Yes.

3 JUDGE JAN: What is the answer? What was the answer?

4 Please go a little slower. We have not got his answer

5 yet.

6 MS RESIDOVIC (in interpretation): You identified this

7 statement as having been written in your hand and as a

8 statement that you signed; is that correct?

9 A. Yes, that is correct.

10 Q. I would now like to ask the Trial Chamber to accept this

11 document as Defence Exhibit D1/4.

12 MR OSTBERG: Your Honours, before I take a position to

13 object or not object, I would like to know if this

14 document was signed under some kind of threat or duress

15 or the circumstances are absolutely unknown to us.

16 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: He has not said so. He did not say it

17 was. If it was, he would have said so.

18 MR OSTBERG: To me there was some -- about the gun there

19 were some comments.

20 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: No, you did not suggest it to him. He

21 did not say so. If there was duress in signing it or

22 making the statement which he made in his own hand, he

23 would have said so.

24 MS RESIDOVIC (in interpretation): Is this accepted as a

25 Defence Exhibit, your Honours?

Page 1578

1 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Yes. He said he made this statement.

2 MS RESIDOVIC (in interpretation): Thank you. Thank you

3 very much. Mr Gligorevic, you wanted to know who the

4 members of the commission who interrogated you on 14th

5 January 1993 were. Would you please show to

6 Mr Gligorevic this document? I would also like to ask

7 you to present the Trial Chamber with the translation of

8 the said document.

9 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: We are referring here to the one dated

10 June 6th, 1993?

11 MS RESIDOVIC (in interpretation): No, your Honours. This

12 is the document dated 14th January and the witness asked

13 if I could show him the members of the commission who

14 signed the document also. So if I can now show both to

15 you and to the witness the members of the commission so

16 that the witness may perhaps identify them?

17 A. I am sorry but --

18 Q. Mr Gligorevic, do you know any of the members?

19 A. No, apart from Jasminka Dzumhur, who I mentioned, who

20 I knew before the war. I also saw her once at Musala,

21 when she came there, but I do not know the others.

22 Q. So, sir, on this list of the commission you recognise

23 the name of Jasminka Dzumhur; is that right?

24 A. She is the only person I know.

25 Q. Your Honours, may I for the same reasons as the way to

Page 1579

1 identify one of the members of the commission of the

2 14th January also submit this document to the court?

3 MR OSTBERG: I object, your Honours.

4 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Only because he identified one of them

5 out of five, out of that group, he could not have done

6 that.

7 MS RESIDOVIC (in interpretation): Yes, your Honours. This

8 one person signed under number 1 on the statement

9 disputed by the witness. It is possible that this

10 person may appear before this Tribunal as a witness.

11 Since he recognised this person and identified her as a

12 person he knows, that is the reason why I would like

13 this document to be marked for identification purposes,

14 tendered for the purposes of identification of that

15 person.

16 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: It is not that person who is tendering

17 it. You are tendering it through someone else, who is

18 objecting to the rest of it, and he did not say at any

19 stage all the five of them were acting together with

20 respect to him. He never said so.

21 MS RESIDOVIC (in interpretation): Thank you, your Honours.

22 The defence will then try to identify this document and

23 to determine its importance in some other manner more

24 suited to this Tribunal.

25 May I now show to the witness another document

Page 1580

1 and, of course, to submit to you the translation of the

2 document?

3 Mr Gligorevic, is the date of your arrest stated

4 in this document, the date of your capture?

5 A. Yes, but this is a document I see for the first time in

6 my life. It could have been printed out a couple of

7 days ago. Nobody has ever given or shown anything like

8 this to me.

9 Q. This document states that a rifle and bullets were taken

10 away from you?

11 A. I tell you this is the first time ever I see something

12 of the kind.

13 Q. Thank you very much. This document will be presented to

14 the court in some other appropriate manner.

15 Mr Gligorevic, do you know what amnesty is?

16 A. I can only assume, but can you help me out?

17 Q. If I were to tell you this is the decision of the

18 competent authority which can then amnesty a person from

19 any proceedings, is that what you would think?

20 A. Yes, when a very high state organ, yes, gives mercy to

21 someone.

22 Q. Mr Gligorevic, have you ever received amnesty?

23 A. As far as I know, not. I spent a lot of time in the

24 camp in the first to the last day the camp lasted.

25 After me the camp at Musala remained empty.

Page 1581

1 Q. I would ask for this document to be presented to

2 Mr Gligorevic and to you, your Honours. This has to do

3 with the proceedings conducted against Mr Gligorevic.

4 Mr Gligorevic, did you receive this document at

5 any time?

6 A. No, I did not. This is also something I see for the

7 first time.

8 Q. Do you know how you came to be on the exchange list if

9 such proceedings were conducted against you?

10 A. I don't know. The negotiators are the ones who know

11 that.

12 Q. Sir, are you aware that in Bosnia-Herzegovina now no

13 proceedings are conducted against you?

14 A. I don't know that. I do not live there.

15 Q. Do you know that you can freely go to your village if

16 you want to do so?

17 A. That is very good, but that village does not exist any

18 more.

19 Q. Thank you very much. The town of Konjic still exists?

20 A. But my village, Bradina, I think is today still a

21 desert.

22 Q. As many others, and we are here to build new ones.

23 A. Unfortunately I do not know why we had to destroy them.

24 Q. Thank you very much, Mr Gligorevic. Your Honours, I

25 have some more questions. Can I continue?

Page 1582

1 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Yes, you can.

2 MS RESIDOVIC (in interpretation): Mr Gligorevic, in your

3 statement given to the Prosecutor and in your testimony

4 before this court you said that in Bradina and in other

5 parts of the Republic there were village centres set up;

6 is that correct?

7 A. Yes, yes. There were village centres.

8 Q. Can you tell me what did they keep watch over, these

9 village centres? Houses?

10 A. Yes, probably. I did not take part in that, and I spent

11 there a very short time, but I assume they were guarding

12 their own village.

13 Q. Roads?

14 A. Yes. If they guard their own village and there is a

15 road going through a village, it is logical.

16 Q. Railway lines, if the railway line goes through the

17 village?

18 A. Probably.

19 Q. Can you please tell me. The main route goes through

20 Bradina; is that correct?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. And the only railway line linking Sarajevo and central

23 and northern Bosnia with the sea also goes there?

24 A. That is true.

25 Q. Mr Gligorevic, if these sentries were guarding this road

Page 1583

1 and the railway line, it would be impossible to go from

2 Sarajevo to Konjic on a normal route; is that correct?

3 A. I don't know whether one could go through there or not.

4 I spent only a very short time there. I also know,

5 which I explained to your colleague last time round,

6 that these roads were blocked. There was a tunnel near

7 Konjic which was destroyed, and also in the direction of

8 Sarajevo it was all blocked with parts of excavators,

9 with sand and logs.

10 Q. Yes, Mr Gligorevic, but you also explained to my learned

11 colleague, Ms McMurrey, you confirmed that you arrived

12 from Hadzici to Bradina on 8th May?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Do you know, Mr Gligorevic, that on 9th May the units of

15 the JNA and Serbian forces took over the centre of

16 Hadzici?

17 A. I don't know. We were not listening to anything in

18 Bradina. There was no electricity, so I did not know

19 what was going on and when things were going on.

20 Q. But if these were undisputed facts, you do not challenge

21 them?

22 A. I simply say I don't know anything about it, so I can

23 neither confirm or contest it.

24 Q. The town of Hadzici throughout the war until the NATO

25 air strikes and the Dayton Agreement, it was controlled

Page 1584

1 by Serbian forces?

2 A. I was at a camp.

3 Q. In 1995 you were not?

4 A. I was not in Hadzici then.

5 Q. You know that in Hadzici there was the largest

6 ammunition depot of the JNA in Duronica?

7 A. I don't know.

8 Q. You do not know?

9 A. No.

10 Q. Please, a little while ago you marked on the map the

11 villages of Tarcin and Pozaric?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Is it correct that these are two local communes in the

14 Hadzici municipality?

15 A. That is correct.

16 Q. Is it correct, sir, that if the village of Hadzici was

17 occupied and Bradina blocked, that Pozaric and Tarcin

18 were in some kind of a sandwich, and unable to reach

19 Sarajevo or Konjic?

20 A. This main road, yes, it is probably true for the main

21 road, but they could go to some other roads.

22 Q. Mr Gligorevic, in relation to your answer, can you

23 confirm that from Tarcin to Konjic you can reach that

24 location in a car in half an hour?

25 A. I cannot tell you the exact time, but probably it is the

Page 1585

1 case.

2 Q. In the latter case to reach Konjic you have to go on the

3 Macedon road through Fojnica and Djusina and it would

4 take up at least fifteen hours; is that correct?

5 A. I do not know that area. I can't tell you what is the

6 distance.

7 Q. Mr Gligorevic, as a teacher of the geography of the

8 region --

9 A. I would never ever go to Fojnica and I was never in that

10 area so I really cannot tell you whether one needs 15 or

11 30 or 2 hours.

12 Q. Thank you very much. You testified before this court

13 that because of your poor eyesight you did not do your

14 national service in the JNA?

15 A. That is correct.

16 Q. You said to my learned colleague that despite that you

17 are able to see some persons even without your glasses

18 and certain objects that you recognise?

19 A. Yes. It depends on the distance where they are.

20 Q. So you were exempt from serving national service in the

21 JNA in times of peace?

22 A. Yes, that is correct.

23 Q. In the case of war you would have to go to be examined

24 by the commission and for your ability to be determined?

25 A. I know nothing about such a rule.

Page 1586

1 Q. Do you know, Mr Gligorevic, that in April 1992 in

2 Bosnia-Herzegovina the state of imminent danger of war

3 was proclaimed? You remember that?

4 A. It is difficult to remember that. It was a long time

5 ago.

6 Q. The schools ceased to work?

7 A. They used to work on and off for a day or two.

8 Q. Do you know that at that time the general mobilisation

9 was declared?

10 A. I don't know that.

11 Q. Is it correct, Mr Gligorevic, that you did not respond

12 to the call-up for the mobilisation in your municipality

13 of Hadzici?

14 A. In case such a thing was proclaimed, I did not respond

15 to it.

16 Q. Also when you arrived in Bradina, you did not respond to

17 the call-up for mobilisation in the Territorial Defence

18 headquarters in Konjic; is that correct?

19 A. It is correct. There was no possibility to go to Konjic

20 and nobody called me anyway.

21 Q. You did not go to see a doctor for your inability to

22 serve to be determined in the case of war?

23 A. No, I did not go to a doctor.

24 Q. You did not. Thank you. I would now like to ask you

25 about one part of your statement given to the

Page 1587

1 prosecutor. If you remember, Mr Gligorevic, last year

2 you stated that in Bradina there was a meeting held

3 between the inhabitants and the representatives from

4 Konjic; is that correct?

5 A. I heard about that. I was not present but I heard about

6 it.

7 Q. You stated then that this meeting was joined by certain

8 officials in Konjic?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Can you confirm that on that occasion you said that the

11 meeting was attended by Dr Rusmir Hadzihuseinovic, the

12 Chairman of the Municipality and Chairman of the War

13 Presidency at the time?

14 A. So I was told by my neighbours.

15 Q. You were also told that the meeting was attended by

16 Jasmin Guska, the chief of the public security station,

17 Konjic; is that correct?

18 A. Yes, it is.

19 Q. The meeting was also attended by Hanza Janovic, an

20 officer, former JNA, who was at that time a member of

21 the TO headquarters in Konjic; is that correct?

22 A. For the meeting in Bradina that took place before I came

23 from Hadzici, I was told he attended it. The second

24 meeting, which took place at Podorasac, I can't tell

25 you. I don't know whether he was there or not.

Page 1588

1 Q. You also know at that time it was demanded that the

2 barricades and checkpoints from the main route be

3 removed; is that correct?

4 A. I don't know. I was told more or less at that last

5 meeting that there was an agreement as the situation in

6 Bosnia and Herzegovina was very bad and nothing was

7 solved yet to wait for some kind of a political decision

8 and for any side not to attack anybody. The meeting

9 took place on the Saturday and in the meantime they were

10 preparing an attack while they were trying to convince

11 the people from Bradina they were not attacking them and

12 the attack started on Monday.

13 Q. So the attack started on the 23rd?

14 A. I was told it was a Saturday. I don't know the date.

15 Q. Do you know that the town of Konjic was shelled also on

16 23rd and on 24th and 25th May?

17 A. I do not know for sure. We are some 12 or 13 kms away

18 from Konjic.

19 Q. Thank you very much, Mr Gligorevic. There are just a

20 few questions to confirm and clarify some things that

21 you also stated before this court.

22 You said that among the groups on the 27th from

23 Bradina to Celebici were transported Petko Gligorevic

24 and Miljanic; is that correct?

25 A. Yes, that is correct.

Page 1589

1 Q. You also stated before this Tribunal that Pero

2 Gligorevic and Gojko Miljanic --

3 A. The name is Petko.

4 Q. And Gojko Miljanic died several hours later in the

5 morning from the injuries they received on that

6 occasion?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Mr Gligorevic, you also stated that after several days

9 after your arrival to Hangar Number 6 a group from

10 Tunnel Number 9 were brought in?

11 A. Yes. It was a group from Bradina that was taken -- that

12 was brought there the day before I arrived on 26th May.

13 Q. You noticed that some of them had bandages on their

14 heads. I think it was Mirko Kuljanin.

15 A. I don't remember exactly.

16 Q. So that means that before their arrival to the Hangar

17 Number 6 these people were given medical assistance?

18 A. I don't know in what way and who gave them assistance.

19 Among the people who were arrested there was also a

20 doctor, Relja Mrkajic. He was also from Bradina. He

21 was the one who gave medical assistance. I do not know

22 who gave him all the bandages and equipment.

23 Q. At any rate before their arrival to hangar Number 6 they

24 were given medical assistance, as you could see

25 yourself?

Page 1590

1 A. Some people had bandages on their heads.

2 Q. Thank you. You also stated, and let me now clarify

3 that, that several days later a group of Serbs arrested

4 in Bjelasnica arrived?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Can you please tell this court whether there was a group

7 of Serbs who from Bradina to Bjelasnica set off towards

8 the Serb controlled territory?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Can you also state that these people had been beaten on

11 the occasion of their arrest and when they were brought

12 to Celebici?

13 A. Yes, I can. In fact, that group which was brought there

14 was put into Number 9, Tunnel Number 9, not in Hangar

15 6. So I saw them when they were transferred to Hangar

16 6.

17 Q. You learned about that group from the persons

18 transferred from Number 9 to Hangar Number 6; is that

19 correct?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Among those transferred to Hangar Number 6 were some

22 relatives of yours; is that correct?

23 A. I don't know. I don't know whether there were any close

24 relatives of mine but here was also my brother-in-law

25 who was there, but not in the same group. He was

Page 1591

1 brought from Bradina.

2 Q. All right. Just two more questions, Mr Gligorevic. Was

3 among the group Pero Mrkajic, and was it correct that he

4 was beaten very badly?

5 A. Not in that group. Pero Mrkajic was brought with

6 another group. He was very severely beaten. He was

7 lying down next to me. He died of his injuries.

8 Q. Mr Gligorevic, can you tell me if you know if this group

9 in which Pero Mrkajic was, that they captured near the

10 village of Ljuta two members of the Territorial Defence

11 and they subsequently killed them?

12 A. I don't know about that.

13 Q. You believe that other persons in that group can testify

14 about that fact?

15 A. I think in case that killing happened, I suppose this

16 was not Pero's group. These were elderly people. Pero

17 Mrkajic and somebody by the name of Djordjic. These

18 were elderly people.

19 Q. Do you refer to Rajko Djordjic?

20 A. I do not know which group up mean and where those

21 killings took place but I know for Pero it was not him.

22 He told me that later on, although he was beaten.

23 Q. At any rate you did hear that some members were killed

24 near the village of Ljuta on the road towards

25 Kalinovnik?

Page 1592

1 A. I don't know about that. Nobody told me about it.

2 Q. Thank you very much, Mr Gligorevic.

3 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Thank you very much, Ms Residovic.

4 I think the Trial Chamber will now rise.

5 MR OSTBERG: Your Honour, may I just inform your Honours

6 that Mr Gligorevic has a plane waiting for him to travel

7 back to the country where he lives. I have just one or

8 two questions in re-direct to ask to him, so I would be

9 very grateful on behalf of him if I could be allowed to

10 do that and then the break may be taken.

11 MR GREAVES: Your Honours, I am sorry to interrupt my

12 learned friend, Mr Ostberg. There is a matter I want to

13 raise privately with counsel for Mr Delalic. It

14 concerns this witness and before he is released from

15 cross-examination, I wonder whether I might beg your

16 indulgence just to have a word privately with

17 Mr O'Sullivan.

18 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: While the questioning is on?

19 MR GREAVES: If your Honours thought that was not

20 disrespectful to you, I would happily do that, if

21 I might. It is a matter that has arisen out of the

22 cross-examination this morning.

23 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: As long as you whisper, that is all

24 right.

25 MR GREAVES: I promise to whisper.

Page 1593

1 MS RESIDOVIC (in interpretation): Your Honours, may we

2 have a five minute break? It seems that I have may have

3 missed a question? Can you allow me to consult for two

4 or three minutes in order to complete my

5 cross-examination?

6 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Okay.

7 MS RESIDOVIC (in interpretation): Thank you very much.

8 MR GREAVES: I hope I am not thought to have started a

9 trend. Your Honour, this is a matter that arose out of

10 something that Judge Jan raised this morning in relation

11 to the specimen signature that was given, that one

12 purpose to which that might be put would be comparison

13 with the document which has been disavowed by this

14 witness. It is a practical matter. My experience is

15 that handwriting experts will need more than one

16 specimen signature for purposes of comparison.

17 I certainly know that in my jurisdiction a competent

18 handwriting expert would need at least 12, but

19 preferably 20 specimen signatures. I wonder whether the

20 court would think it proper to ask the witness if before

21 he leaves for his plane, and I have heard Mr Ostberg say

22 he has to catch it, he might be asked to provide a sheet

23 of A4 paper with 20 specimen signatures upon it and that

24 should become part of the exhibits in the court in the

25 way the other one did as well. I do not know whether it

Page 1594

1 is, in fact, proposed to have it compared, but if there

2 is any prospect of that, that ought to be done in order

3 for an effective comparison to be made.

4 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: He can be made to sign such a specimen

5 signature.

6 JUDGE JAN: No objection.

7 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: For that purpose.

8 MR GREAVES: Thank you very much. I hope that is a helpful

9 suggestion.

10 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: I think the prosecutor should make him

11 sign.

12 MR OSTBERG: I do not object.

13 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Ensure that he does it.

14 JUDGE JAN: Before he catches the plane.

15 MR OSTBERG: Yes, I hope so.

16 MR GREAVES: Thank you very much, your Honour.

17 MS RESIDOVIC (in interpretation): Your Honours, before

18 I leave this place, can I ask you to repeat which of the

19 documents that I tendered are already accepted as

20 defence exhibits and which have only been marked for

21 identification purposes? If you could help me with that

22 so that we know where we are.

23 JUDGE JAN: It should be clear from the transcript.

24 MS McMURREY: Your Honours, if I may, we are just trying to

25 clear up. I think she had some of them offered for

Page 1595

1 exhibit but she did not offer it into evidence and

2 I would like for her to --

3 JUDGE JAN: I thought you were talking about the January

4 14th January 1993. He said the signature resembled his

5 and probably he did not sign them. That is what he

6 said.

7 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: The only document which I can remember

8 which could have been admitted is that dated 6th June

9 1993, which he wrote himself.

10 MS McMURREY: Yes. She did not say the magic words of

11 offering it into evidence. So that is what we were

12 trying to clarify.

13 JUDGE JAN: I think she mentioned the number of the exhibit

14 also.

15 MS RESIDOVIC (in interpretation): Yes. Thank you very

16 much. So the documents that I have offered into

17 evidence were accepted by the Trial Chamber and the

18 documents that I asked to be marked for identification

19 purposes as seen in the transcript were indicated as

20 such. I thank my colleagues. Probably my way of

21 tendering evidence is not so technically precise. So

22 I thank them for the suggestion. I would also like to

23 ask you, your Honours, bearing in mind that the witness

24 spoke about his eyesight, if you could allow me to ask

25 the witness to take off his glasses for a moment.

Page 1596

1 Mr Gligorevic, can you see -- my colleague will

2 now show --

3 A. Four fingers.

4 Q. Could you turn on the witness' microphone? You have to

5 have your microphone on. Can you now please tell what

6 you saw; what my colleague, Miss McMurrey, showed?

7 A. She raised her hand with four fingers.

8 Q. Yes, the witness saw four fingers. He said --

9 MR OSTBERG: I object to this eye examination in open court.

10 We cannot have this. He has answered questions about

11 his eyesight and what he could see with and without

12 glasses. I think this is ridiculous and should not be

13 permitted.

14 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Actually, Ms Residovic, why --

15 JUDGE JAN: Madam Residovic, I do not know. It is up to

16 you. You can ask him the number of glasses which he

17 uses, but I leave it to you. I do not want to ...

18 MS RESIDOVIC (in interpretation): Your Honours, can you

19 please tell us what your eyesight is?

20 A. 175.

21 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: You have to wonder what happened so

22 many years ago about eyesight. It deteriorates over the

23 years. Even if it was good then --

24 JUDGE JAN: I purposely left it to you.

25 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: It is not worth it.

Page 1597

1 MS RESIDOVIC (in interpretation): Thank you. I have one

2 more question for confirmation. Mr Gligorevic, in your

3 statement given to the Prosecutor last year you stated

4 that when you were taken to Celebici that Mirsad

5 Musinovic, Rale, was the camp commander; is that right?

6 A. That is what I was told but I did not know that man

7 because I did not use to live in that area.

8 Q. Your answer is that is what you were told and you did

9 not know him?

10 A. No, I did not know him. The first time I saw him was at

11 Musala, when he was a prisoner just as I was.

12 Q. Thank you very much once again and thank you, your

13 Honours.

14 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Any questions?

15 Re-examined by Mr Ostberg

16 MR OSTBERG: Your Honour, we do not go into a long

17 re-direct examination. For the record I would please

18 ask Ms Residovic to put on the ELMO the original of his

19 own handwriting which was admitted as evidence to the

20 court. We never got an exhibit in original. So could

21 you please put it on the ELMO. It is the statement of

22 6th June 1993. If it is still there, maybe it can be

23 put by the usher.

24 MS RESIDOVIC (in interpretation): I apologise, your

25 Honours. I did not have my earphones on, so I did not

Page 1598

1 understand the suggestion of Mr Ostberg.

2 MR OSTBERG: No problem. It is just the document of

3 6th June 1993 now being put on the ELMO. You see it and

4 recognise it, Mr Gligorevic?

5 A. Yes.

6 MS RESIDOVIC (in interpretation): Objection. Asked and

7 answered.

8 MR OSTBERG: Please tell the court the circumstances and

9 for what purpose you gave this handwritten statement in

10 June 1993?

11 A. I forgot about this. Probably that was when the Red

12 Cross was coming, the International Red Cross, that is.

13 I don't know for sure.

14 Q. Who did you give it to? Who took it from you?

15 A. I can't remember that now exactly.

16 Q. One thing I did not understand when you answered

17 questions asked by Ms Residovic. You said something

18 about why you named a gun in your paper. I did not

19 understand your answer quite clearly. Why did you put

20 that into the document?

21 A. As I have already said, because that judge, or let us

22 call him a judge, he was asking questions himself and

23 answering the same questions and jotting them down.

24 Q. Are you now talking about what happened in Celebici,

25 when you gave your statement there?

Page 1599

1 A. Yes, yes.

2 Q. When you gave this statement, were you then reminded of

3 the other statement you had already given in Celebici or

4 signed in Celebici?

5 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: This is not re-examination.

6 JUDGE JAN: This is cross-examination.

7 MS McMURREY: I am going to object to him leading the

8 witness, your Honour.

9 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Your interests are being protected.

10 I do not know why you should bother. That is not

11 re-examination.

12 MR OSTBERG: Okay. I think I have got the answers I was

13 after to try to get. Thank you, your Honours.

14 MS RESIDOVIC (in interpretation): Thank you, your

15 Honours.

16 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: I think the Trial Chamber will now

17 rise and reassemble at 12 o'clock. I think that is all

18 for this witness except for his specimen signatures,

19 which he should hand over.

20 MR OSTBERG: Signatures, yes.

21 (11.30 am)

22 (Short break)

23 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Now who is your next witness?

24 MS McHENRY: Good morning, your Honours. The Prosecution

25 calls Nedeljko Draganic.

Page 1600

1 Nedeljko Draganic (sworn)

2 Examined by Ms McHenry

3 MS McHENRY: May the witness be seated now?

4 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Please sit down. Take your seat.

5 MS McHENRY: Sir, would you please tell us your full name?

6 A. (In interpretation): My name is Nedeljko Draganic.

7 Q. How old were you in 1992, sir?

8 A. I was 19 years old.

9 Q. That makes you how old now, sir?

10 A. I am 23.

11 Q. In 1992 were you working or were you in school?

12 A. I was in school.

13 Q. In May of 1992 specifically where were you living?

14 A. I was living at Cerici, which is a village next to

15 Konjic.

16 Q. May I ask that the usher put Prosecution Exhibit

17 number 4, a map, on the ELMO, so that the ...

18 Sir, I am going to ask if looking at the map that

19 is to your right, not the one directly in front of you

20 but this one, if you can show the court where Konjic is

21 and then where Cerici is -- Konjic town?

22 A. (Indicating) Konjic is here and Cerici is here.

23 Q. Okay. Thank you. About how many houses were in Cerici

24 in May of 1992?

25

Page 1601

1 A. I can't tell you the exact number, but there were some

2 40 households.

3 Q. Who is the ethnic background of most of the inhabitants

4 of Cerici?

5 A. Serbs.

6 Q. What is your ethnic background, sir?

7 A. I am a Serb.

8 Q. Was there a time when there was military action in or

9 against your village?

10 A. I don't understand the question.

11 Q. Was there ever a time when there was any fighting or an

12 attack or any sort of military action involving your

13 village?

14 A. I think that the Muslim Croat army started to attack on

15 the 19th, and that they started to shell the village

16 either on the 19th or 20th. I am not that sure of the

17 date. Mostly it was only shelling. The inhabitants

18 were mostly sheltered.

19 Q. When you say 19th or 20th, can you tell us what month?

20 A. On 19th or the 20th May 1992.

21 Q. Okay. Were you part of any armed defence of your

22 village?

23 A. No, not me.

24 Q. Were you armed prior to the military action?

25 A. No, not me.

Page 1602

1 Q. Can you please very briefly describe what happened and

2 whether or not you were arrested or captured following

3 the military action?

4 A. Yes. I was captured on 23rd May 1992 after all the

5 shelling done by the Muslim Croat coalition. After that

6 they entered the village once that all the villagers had

7 left. I think they left on 22nd. I'm not too sure

8 about dates. After that the Muslim Croat army entered

9 the village, and all the men and women were taken to a

10 field, Cerici field, in front of the house of Branko

11 Sudar. We were all rounded up there and I was brought

12 there from my house, which is 150 metres away from the

13 house of Branko Sudar, where we were all brought.

14 From there we were all transferred to Celebici.

15 Then we were told that we were going for some kind of an

16 informative interview and that we get back home by that

17 evening, but we stayed there for three months.

18 Q. When you say that all the men and the women were taken

19 to a field and then "we were brought to Celebici", can

20 you clarify exactly who it was that was brought to

21 Celebici?

22 A. The women and children were released and left to go

23 home. They were told they can freely return to their

24 houses, and there were some 17 of us, 16 or 17 -- I

25 don't know the exact number -- maybe 15 of us. Yes,

Page 1603

1 there was a group of us between 15 and 18 people, who

2 were taken to Celebici. Most of us -- I mean, none of

3 us had any weapons. I think that maybe two people had

4 some hunting type of weapons with a permit for those

5 weapons.

6 Q. Where were you brought when you were taken to Celebici?

7 A. First, we entered through the gate, and after that we

8 were lined up against a wall, the wall that was in front

9 of Tunnel Number 9. Right next to the gate there is a

10 very big wall.

11 Q. Then what happened?

12 A. They were searching us. They told us to take our

13 shoelaces out of our shoes. They took our personal IDs,

14 and searching us mostly. We had to face the wall and

15 not to turn around, to stand still and to hold our arms

16 up and against the wall.

17 Q. Then what happened next? Were you brought somewhere?

18 A. Then after maybe an hour or an hour and of a half -- I

19 don't know exactly -- then we were put into Tunnel

20 Number 9 and that's where we spent that night.

21 Q. How long did you remain in Tunnel Number 9?

22 A. I think for some three nights and two to three days.

23 I do not know for sure, but anyhow when people from

24 Bradina were brought in -- I think I was in Number 9

25 from 23rd May 1992 up until 26th May. I do not know

Page 1604

1 exactly whether it was the night from 25th to 26th or

2 the night from 26th to 27th May 1992, whether it was on

3 one of these two days when they brought the prisoners

4 from Bradina it was at that moment that we were

5 transferred. I do not know into what -- what was the

6 number of the building, but it was opposite the command

7 building. They used to call it an infirmary. It used

8 to be some kind of a fire station. There was

9 fire-fighting equipment in that storage and those kinds

10 of things.

11 Q. Going back to your first two or three nights in Tunnel

12 Number 9, can you please describe Tunnel Number 9 for

13 us?

14 A. Tunnel Number 9, when you enter it, there are two to

15 three steps. It is right next to the main wall. When

16 you enter through the gate, there is this main wall and

17 this tunnel is right next to it. There are two or three

18 steps. After that there is an iron door with a very

19 small window in that door. That tunnel has got a slight

20 inclination, a slope, that leads to another door, but I

21 never went to the end of the tunnel. The tunnel is 1.5

22 metres large and it is high -- its height is about 2

23 metres and it is some 20 metres long. I'm not too sure

24 about that.

25 Q. When you were there, was the tunnel lighted? Was the

Page 1605

1 tunnel lit -- excuse me?

2 A. No, never. Never while I was there.

3 Q. When you were there approximately how many prisoners

4 were in the tunnel?

5 A. The group that came with me, we were there in it some 16

6 or 17 people. Later on some other people were brought

7 in, but I do not know how many.

8 Q. May I ask the technical support people to show on the

9 computer Prosecution Exhibit 1/45? It is photograph 45

10 on page 33. Sir, do you recognise what that is?

11 A. Yes. This is Tunnel Number 9.

12 Q. Can I then ask for 1, page 34, picture 46? I ask, sir,

13 do you recognise that?

14 A. Yes. This is also Tunnel Number 9. The picture was

15 made from the bottom end of the tunnel and one can see

16 the door, which is open, and also the window I just

17 mentioned, the window that's on the door.

18 Q. During the time that you were in the tunnel, were you

19 ever formally interrogated?

20 A. Yes. I was interrogated by Stenek. He was a police

21 inspector of some kind.

22 Q. Can you please tell us about that?

23 A. They were calling us out, to go out of the tunnel one by

24 one, and they would be taking us in front of the command

25 building. In fact, it was behind the command building.

Page 1606

1 How shall I explain that? The northern side behind the

2 command building. There was some kind of a table there

3 and a guard was standing next to it. The guard was

4 rather bigger type of man. He was, yes, rather big and

5 he was some kind of a civilian police or military police

6 -- I don't know. Then Stenek started to ask

7 questions. He asked me who I was, what I was. He asked

8 me what was going on in Cerici and Donje Selo.

9 Q. Did you give a statement at that time?

10 A. I was giving --

11 JUDGE JAN: Just a minute, Miss McHenry. You have a big

12 model here. Why do you not use that also? I find that

13 none of the witnesses are being asked to indicate the

14 places.

15 MS McHENRY: Your Honour, that is a fair point. In fact,

16 I was planning on asking him to use the model as well as

17 a diagram, but, in fact, this is a fine time to do it.

18 If I could have, first, the usher's assistance.

19 JUDGE JAN: He has talked about the wall. He can indicate

20 the wall, the location of the tunnel, all these things.

21 MS McHENRY: I would ask that this diagram, the original be

22 marked for identification purposes and then put on the

23 ELMO. It is, I believe, Prosecution Exhibit 86. The

24 defence already has a copy of this. This is the diagram

25 attached to the witness' statement. Your Honours, this

Page 1607

1 is both a diagram and then I am going to also ask him to

2 use the model.

3 JUDGE JAN: He can indicate the wall he has talked about,

4 the position of the tunnel.

5 MS McHENRY: The fact that the microphone does not allow

6 someone to go to the model is slightly problematic, but

7 ...

8 Sir, I am showing you what has been marked for

9 identification purposes as Prosecution Exhibit 86. Do

10 you recognise this as a diagram you created in 1995

11 during an interview with people from the Office of the

12 Prosecutor? If you want, you may look to your right, if

13 that is easier.

14 A. Yes. I drew this when they came to see me for me to

15 give a statement to them. This is a diagram of Number 6

16 and of number 7.

17 Q. Okay. I am going to ask you to look in front of you to

18 what has been admitted as Prosecution Exhibit 2 and ask

19 if you recognise that as a model of the Celebici camp?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. If the usher could show him the pointer, sir, if you

22 could stand up and hopefully just from where you are

23 standing, using this pointer, and if you can get to it

24 from your seat, you can move around to the outside, but

25 if you can reach over and just -- can you just start,

Page 1608

1 show where the gate of the camp is and where Tunnel

2 Number 9 is and where the wall is that you have already

3 talked about?

4 A. The gate is here. The tunnel is somewhere here. As

5 I can't see too well from here -- the tunnel is

6 somewhere here. Number 6 is this and this here is

7 Number 7. Here is the command building. This is where

8 the guard post was, and here I was interrogated for the

9 first time by Stenek. There was a table placed here.

10 Q. Where is the wall that you were put against when you

11 first arrived at the camp?

12 A. (Indicating).

13 Q. Thank you. Where is the shed that you went to when you

14 left Tunnel Number 9, the building? I believe you said

15 it stored fire-fighting equipment and was called the

16 infirmary.

17 A. That is here.

18 Q. Thank you.

19 A. You are welcome.

20 Q. Going back to your interrogation, I believe I had asked

21 if you had given a statement at that time. Would you

22 please explain what, if anything, happened during your

23 interrogation and whether or not you gave a statement?

24 A. I gave some kind of a statement, but I can't remember.

25 The question was whether I had a rifle. I remember

Page 1609

1 saying that I did not have a rifle. He also asked me

2 other things concerning Donje Selo, and I do not

3 remember what I answered. When I say Donje Selo,

4 I include Cerici in it as well.

5 Q. Did you sign the statement?

6 A. I don't remember.

7 Q. Was that the only time while you were at Celebici that

8 you were ever taken out and asked questions?

9 A. I am sorry. How do you mean whether it was the only

10 time? When they were beating me, they would sometimes

11 ask some questions, some stupid things.

12 Q. Okay. I will ask about that later to clarify. Thank

13 you. Can you please describe how long -- you have

14 indicated you were brought to the building across from

15 the command centre. How long did you remain in that

16 building?

17 A. I don't recall very well. I can't tell exactly. It

18 might have been -- I really do not know when I was

19 transferred into Hangar 6. I think that I was

20 transferred some time in June, June 1992, that is.

21 Q. When you were in this building, was it used as an

22 infirmary?

23 A. No.

24 Q. Can you please describe briefly the conditions when you

25 were in this shed, the building that was later used as

Page 1610

1 an infirmary? Can you describe what that was like?

2 A. The conditions were almost non-existent. That means

3 that we slept on the concrete. In case somebody had a

4 jacket, he could put it on the floor and then lie down

5 on it. There were quite a few of us there, so we slept

6 so that one person would have his legs over somebody

7 else's legs and then the third person would put his head

8 over these legs. There were quite a few people in it

9 and the conditions were, yes, almost non-existent.

10 Q. While you were in the shed, were you mistreated in any

11 way?

12 A. Only --

13 JUDGE JAN: Excuse me. You are talking about the shed?

14 You are still talking about the infirmary.

15 MS McHENRY: Yes, sir.

16 JUDGE JAN: You do not know when he moved to the shed, from

17 the hangar or whatever it is. We do not know when he

18 moved out of the hangar. He is still talking about the

19 infirmary.

20 MS McHENRY: Yes, your Honour.

21 JUDGE JAN: You are talking about the infirmary.

22 MS McHENRY: Yes, your Honour.

23 THE JUDGE: You used the word "shed". Was it a shed or was

24 it a building.

25 MS McHENRY: It was a building, which I will refer to as

Page 1611

1 the infirmary just for clarification, although I know it

2 was not used as an infirmary while you were first there.

3 While you were in this building, later used as an

4 infirmary, were you mistreated in any way?

5 A. Only on one occasion. I was taken out by Delic in front

6 of the building. His leg was injured. I don't know

7 what caused it. He was walking with crutches. He was

8 waving these crutches and a shovel on to me, and he was

9 shouting: "Where is now ...." He was mentioning a name,

10 I think Boro Golubovic, and he said: "Do you want me to

11 say where he is?" That was it.

12 Q. Did you know Delic from before the war?

13 A. I only knew him from sight. I never met him personally.

14 Q. Did you know his name before you were at the camp?

15 A. I don't think so.

16 Q. Can you please describe him?

17 A. A man no hair, slightly bald. He's a rather big man,

18 maybe 1.90 metres or 1.95 metres tall. He's got a very

19 rounded and full face, a slightly larger head. He was

20 very heavily built.

21 Q. Do you know when it was that you first saw Mr Delic in

22 Celebici approximately?

23 A. It may have been maybe two or three days after I was

24 transferred from Number 9 to this building. I don't

25 know what you call it.

Page 1612

1 Q. The building that was later used as an infirmary?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Is that when the incident you have just described, where

4 he brought you out and asked you about a person, was

5 that two or three days afterwards or was that another

6 incident -- another time you saw him?

7 A. I don't remember exactly, but it was quite soon, maybe

8 two or four days after I was transferred from Number 9

9 to this building that they called the infirmary.

10 Q. What was Mr Delic's role in the camp, as far as you

11 could observe?

12 A. From what I could observe, he was some kind of a

13 commander. Whether he was a guard commander or

14 something like that ...

15 Q. How is it that you observed that he was some kind of

16 commander? What kinds of things did you observe leading

17 to your conclusion that he was some sort of commander?

18 A. Well, according to what the guards said and from what

19 I could observe when he was talking to some guards, this

20 is basically on what I base my conclusion.

21 Q. Did you ever see him give instructions to anyone or did

22 you ever see him take instructions from other guards?

23 A. I saw him give orders to guards.

24 Q. While you were at the camp, did you observe anyone else

25 having authority over the guards or over the camp?

Page 1613

1 A. During my entire stay in the camp, I don't know, except

2 if one could think that the person who released me from

3 the camp was in charge. I don't know what his function

4 was.

5 Q. Who was the person who released you from the camp?

6 A. Zdravko Mucic.

7 Q. Did you know him before you arrived at the camp?

8 A. No.

9 Q. Did you ever see him while you were present in the camp?

10 A. I think I saw him once or twice.

11 Q. Do you remember approximately when it was that you first

12 saw him?

13 A. No, I don't know exactly.

14 Q. Did you ever hear other guards or other people in

15 authority refer to Mr Mucic?

16 A. Maybe the guards would mention him from time to time,

17 but I did not hear much about him.

18 Q. Okay. Did you ever become aware that he was present in

19 the camp, even if you yourself did not see it -- did not

20 see him physically, for instance from things you heard?

21 A. Could you please repeat your question?

22 Q. Even if you yourself did not see Mr Mucic other than the

23 couple of occasions you have told us about, were there

24 other occasions when you were aware that he was in the

25 camp, although you personally did not see him during

Page 1614

1 those occasions?

2 A. I don't think so.

3 Q. Where were you brought after you were taken out of the

4 building that later became the infirmary?

5 A. I was taken to Hangar Number 6.

6 Q. Where approximately did you sit in Hangar Number 6?

7 A. This is the chart that I drew, and I sat here, where

8 this indication number 1 is. This is approximately

9 where I sat (indicating).

10 Q. Can you describe what the conditions were like when you

11 were in Hangar Number 6, and if you want to use your

12 diagram while you are explaining things, please do so.

13 A. The conditions were bad. There were many people there,

14 many people in Hangar Number 6. There were about 250,

15 maybe 240 people. The number was not the same all the

16 time, because some people would leave and other people

17 would come in. So I don't know. People sat next to the

18 sheet metal walls. That's the row around here all the

19 way down next to the walls (indicating), and there were

20 two rows in the middle.

21 Q. Can you just again show where approximately among these

22 people was your place?

23 A. (Indicating).

24 Q. Where did you sleep and what kind of facilities were

25 given to you for sleeping?

Page 1615

1 A. I slept here on the concrete.

2 Q. What were conditions like in the hangar when it was hot

3 outside or when it was raining outside?

4 A. When it was hot outside, it was very hot inside the

5 hangar, because it was painted green and it got really

6 very hot, and when it rained, the row next to this wall,

7 there was some kind of a sliding door there. They were

8 all in water. They couldn't sleep at all, because

9 everything got wet. Everything they had got wet, so

10 they couldn't sleep because they were in the water.

11 Q. Can you describe what kind of food and toilet facilities

12 there were when you were in Hangar 6?

13 A. We received food. We usually received a slice of

14 bread. A loaf of bread, which was the normal size,

15 would be sliced into 16, 18 or 19 slices. That's how

16 they sliced it up. Then sometimes they would bring some

17 kind of vegetables stew. Then after that you could get

18 about two or three spoonfuls of vegetable stew. We all

19 ate from one bowl and everybody else ate from the same

20 bowl and we used the same spoons. I think there were

21 five spoons and so five of us would go out and we would

22 eat three or four spoonfuls and that was it. That was

23 the food that we received.

24 Q. Did you receive food every day while you were at the

25 camp?

Page 1616

1 A. No, we did not. There were days where we wouldn't

2 receive any food.

3 Q. If you remember, what was the longest period of time you

4 ever went without being given any food?

5 A. Three or four days.

6 Q. Do you remember approximately when it was you went three

7 or four days without getting food? What month, for

8 instance?

9 A. I think it was in July. I am not sure but I believe it

10 was in July.

11 Q. Okay. What kind of toilet facilities were there for the

12 people in Hangar Number 6?

13 A. We had some kind of a hole that had been dug up and

14 there was a plank across it. It was located here and

15 when we had to go to the toilet, we had to ask the guard

16 to let us go and they usually allowed us to go there in

17 groups to urinate and also when we had to have our bowel

18 movements. So we had to go there. Usually two of us

19 would go to defecate and as for urination, we usually

20 did that next to the ditch. We pissed inside this ditch

21 and the water flowed and took it away.

22 Q. Can I just ask you: is it also the case -- were there

23 guards stationed outside the hangar?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Can I ask, using the model, that you both show the

Page 1617

1 toilet facilities you were talking about and where the

2 guards were, if you know?

3 A. (Indicating) The toilet was somewhere here, somewhere

4 here, and the guards were posted at first here. They

5 were somewhere here, whether here or there. It depended

6 on the shift on the number of guards, two or more.

7 Q. What kind of weapons were available to the guards who

8 were guarding the hangar?

9 A. They had a machinegun and they had rifles. I guess they

10 were automatic rifles. I do not know if they had any

11 semi-automatic rifles. Maybe. At first they kept a

12 machine gun here and then they moved it here.

13 Q. Thank you. You may sit down. During the time that you

14 were in the camp, were you ever told why you were being

15 detained?

16 A. I was never told personally what was the reason for my

17 capture, but Delic walked into the Hangar Number 6 on

18 one occasion and he told us that we are detained because

19 we were Serbs.

20 Q. Were you ever mistreated, sir, while you were being kept

21 in Hangar Number 6?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Was it on more than one occasion?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Can you please tell us about the first time that you

Page 1618

1 remember being mistreated? And I ask that you speak

2 very slowly so that the interpreters can interpret what

3 you are saying and that you explain to us everything

4 that happened, please, slowly?

5 A. The first time I was taken out from Hangar Number 6 and

6 I was called out by Zenga Landzo -- I don't know his

7 first name -- Osmo Dedic -- yes, Osmo Dedic, Adis

8 Alikadic. I think there was a fourth person with him.

9 I think he was called Lisko or something like that.

10 They called me out and they took me to Hangar Number 6.

11 Q. Is that the hangar next to Hangar 6 that you previously

12 pointed out on the model?

13 A. Yes. (Indicating) It's the one down there.

14 Q. Please go on, sir.

15 A. After that they led me in hangar Number 7 and they tied

16 me to a beam so that I was standing up but my hands were

17 tied up above my head. Then they started beating me

18 using all kinds of things. They were kicking me and

19 hitting me with planks and rifle butts and then they

20 asked me where my rifle was. I did not have a rifle.

21 I kept telling them that I didn't have a rifle. They

22 kept beating him until I lost consciousness. When

23 I fainted, they started telling me: "Get up." When

24 I fainted, I was suspended hanging on my hands. After

25 that the four of them -- I don't know for how long they

Page 1619

1 beat me, maybe half an hour. Four of them brought me

2 back to Hangar Number 6.

3 Q. Sir, who was it exactly who was beating you?

4 A. On that occasion I was beaten by Landzo, nicknamed

5 Zenga; Osman Dedic; Adis Alikadic; and Lisko -- I think

6 that his name was Lisko -- the four of them.

7 Q. Is it the case, sir, that all four of them participated

8 in the actual beating of you, in actually hitting you

9 with their hands or with the instruments that you have

10 described?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Now you have mentioned Landzo nicknamed Zenga. Did you

13 know him before you were at the camp?

14 A. Yes. I knew him from the town. We went to the same

15 high school and I also knew him from the cafes in the

16 town.

17 Q. What is his age compared to your age?

18 A. He may have been my age or maybe a year younger, maybe

19 18, 17 at that time in 1992.

20 Q. Did you know his name before you were at the camp,

21 either his nickname or his last name?

22 A. I knew his last name, because they called him Landzo.

23 Q. In the camp what was he referred to?

24 A. He was called Zenga.

25 Q. Did you ever hear anyone else called Zenga when you were

Page 1620

1 at the camp?

2 A. No.

3 Q. If you know, what does "Zenga" stand for?

4 A. This was the term used for Croatian army.

5 Q. Do you know what term in the Croatian army would result

6 in someone being called "Zenga"?

7 A. That was the national guard corps, I think.

8 Q. Okay. What are the initials in Serbo-Croatian for

9 national guard corps, if you know?

10 A. I think it is ZNG.

11 Q. Okay. Can you describe what Zenga Landzo looked like in

12 1992?

13 A. He was about 1.75, 1.80 metres tall. He had a crew

14 cut. In fact, he was shaven at the sides and just maybe

15 2 mms of hair on the top of his head. His face was --

16 it was slightly elongated and he had a specific voice

17 actually, a peculiar accent.

18 Q. Do you know whether or not he ever wore anything on top

19 of his head, any sort of head covering?

20 A. He usually wore a green beret.

21 Q. Okay. Sir, to your knowledge was Zenga there the entire

22 time you were at Celebici or did there come a time when

23 he left Celebici?

24 A. I think that maybe in August -- he was there most of the

25 time but I'm not sure whether he was there for the

Page 1621

1 entire duration of the 90 days that I spent in Celebici.

2 Q. When was it that you left Celebici, just the date, if

3 you remember?

4 A. Late August, maybe on 30th, somewhere around there.

5 Q. Okay. Was the occasion you just told us about the only

6 occasion when Zenga mistreated you?

7 A. No. He was the person who abused me the most in the

8 camp.

9 Q. If you can, can you approximate how many times he

10 physically mistreated you?

11 A. Ten times or more.

12 Q. Okay. Can you remember the second time that you were

13 mistreated by Zenga?

14 A. I don't remember exactly the order of the incidents but

15 I do know that the first time when I was beaten --

16 I know about the first time but as for the order of the

17 other events ... the only thing I can tell you is that

18 I was beaten very often. I don't know the exact order

19 of the beatings, what happened the second time, what

20 happened the third time and the fourth time and so on.

21 Q. Okay. Would you then, please, just tell us specifically

22 about another incident where you were mistreated by

23 Zenga, even if you do not know where it was in the exact

24 order, but I want you at this time just to tell us about

25 one specific incident?

Page 1622

1 A. On one occasion I was taken out at night by Zenga and

2 Osman Dedic. They beat me right in front of Number 7 on

3 the lawn here. They beat me here I don't know for how

4 long. I think that I fainted two or three times and

5 then I would come to again and faint again. Then I was

6 brought back to Hangar Number 6.

7 Q. Was there anything during that incident in particular

8 that resulted in your being brought back? Did something

9 happen that resulted in you being brought back to the

10 hangar?

11 MS McMURREY: Your Honour, I am going to object to the

12 leading form of her question.

13 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Your objection is sustained.

14 MS McMURREY: Thank you.

15 MS McHENRY: With respect to the incident that you have

16 just been telling us about, besides the fact that you

17 were being beaten and you lost consciousness several

18 times, is there anything else that you remember about

19 that incident?

20 A. I remember that Zenga grabbed me by the hair and dragged

21 me on the asphalt, and I fell down, but he kept pulling

22 me up by my hair, and he dragged me to the entrance door

23 and threw me in.

24 Q. Was there any other -- your Honour, is this a good time

25 to stop before we start with another incident?

Page 1623

1 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Yes. We may as well have a break.

2 MS McHENRY: Okay.

3 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: We will resume at 2.30, when you

4 continue with your examination-in-chief.

5 MS McHENRY: Thank you, your Honour.

6 (1.00 pm)

7 (Luncheon Adjournment)

8

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Page 1624

1 (2.30 pm)

2 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Remind the witness he is still on his

3 oath.

4 THE REGISTRAR: Sir, I remind you that you are still under

5 oath.

6 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Can we now continue with your

7 examination-in-chief.

8 MS McHENRY: Thank you, your Honours. Before we continue,

9 I would like to notify the video registrar people that

10 at some point in the near future I will be asking them

11 to potentially use this camera. I neglected to notify

12 them of that before lunch. Thank you.

13 Sir, in addition to the two incidents you

14 described prior to lunch can you describe the next

15 incident or another incident that you remember where you

16 were mistreated by Zenga, Mr Landzo.

17 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Would you kindly remind him of these

18 incidents.

19 MS McHENRY: Yes. That is a good idea, your Honour. The

20 first incident is when he was brought to -- when you

21 were brought to the hangar Number 7 and tied to the beam

22 and the second incident is when you were brought outside

23 the hangar in a grassy area and you were beaten by

24 Mr Landzo and another person in your -- you were grabbed

25 by your hair and lost consciousness. Besides those two

Page 1625

1 incidents, can you please tell us about another incident

2 that you remember, if any, where you were mistreated by

3 Zenga?

4 A. Yes. He mistreated me on several occasions. In one of

5 those occasions he took me out and told me to sit down

6 in front of hangar Number 7. I had to sit down against

7 the wall with my legs close together, and this is the

8 way in which I raised my arms. The knees went upwards.

9 It was here. Then he spilt petrol or something like

10 that over me, or maybe it was alcohol. Then he spilt it

11 over me and he tried to put fire, but his lighter did

12 not work and at the end he used a match, and he burnt

13 both my legs, and he did not allow me to put the fire

14 out until it was put out by itself, and my trousers were

15 completely burnt out and both my legs had burnt and even

16 today I have a scar on my left leg and it can't really

17 be seen on my right leg.

18 Q. Okay. With the assistance of the technical support

19 people may I ask you, sir, would you mind showing the

20 Chamber and the defence attorneys the visible scar that

21 still remains on your left leg?

22 A. Shall I stand up and show it?

23 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: How will he do it? It depends on what

24 part of his legs?

25 MS McHENRY: It is on, if I understand correctly, it is on

Page 1626

1 his shin. I assume if you will just wait one minute,

2 I believe somebody will come and be able to operate the

3 camera.

4 Your Honour, the court's indulgence for one

5 second, please. While the video people are doing that,

6 maybe I will just continue a little bit please and move

7 forward. Sir, since you have been at the Hague, have

8 any pictures been taken of your scars?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. With the usher's assistance I would like to show you

11 three photographs, which I would like marked as

12 Prosecution exhibits 87, 88 and 89. These have

13 previously been shown to defence counsel. May I have

14 them marked for identification purposes first from the

15 Registrar?

16 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Has he identified them?

17 MS McHENRY: Not yet, your Honour.

18 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Let him do.

19 MS McHENRY: Just so the record is clear before --

20 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: He should identify them. Then you can

21 mark them. It is not you identifying them; it is he

22 identifying them, not you.

23 MS McHENRY: Yes, your Honour. In general so the record is

24 clear I thought it would be best to have them marked

25 beforehand. Certainly they cannot be admitted into

Page 1627

1 evidence. Sir, with respect to those photographs, can

2 you tell me whether or not you recognise these

3 photographs?

4 A. Yes. I do recognise them. This is the picture of my

5 left leg.

6 Q. Okay. Can I ask the usher's assistance in --

7 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Now he has identified you can have

8 them identified, not when you got them.

9 MS McHENRY: Okay. Have they been marked for

10 identification purposes? Yes. May I ask that they be

11 put on the ELMO? ? (Shown) the next photograph, please

12 (shown). The final photograph, please (shown).

13 At this time, up your Honours, I would ask that

14 prosecution cues exhibits 87, 88 and 89 be admitted into

15 evidence.

16 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Is there any objections to its

17 production.

18 MS McMURREY: No objection from the defence, your Honour.

19 MR MORAN: No objections, your Honour.

20 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: It is admitted.

21 MS McHENRY: If I could now please ask for assistance from

22 the technical support people so that the witness can

23 show the court using the video camera his injuries.

24 MS McMURREY: Your Honour, we request permission to go look

25 and examine the wound also. Thank you.

Page 1628

1 MS McHENRY: Sir, may I ask that you stand up, please and

2 you pull up your trouser leg. Does he need to go over

3 to the camera? Can I ask, sir, that you come over

4 towards the camera.

5 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: You can walk.

6 MS McMURREY: I was waiting for him to pull his trouser leg

7 up first.

8 MS McHENRY: Thank you, sir. You may resume your seat now.

9 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Is it only on one leg? I thought he

10 had two.

11 MS McHENRY: I believe he had injuries on both legs but in

12 terms of scars that are just remaining, it is only

13 visible now on one injury. When he sits down, I will

14 ask him.

15 MS McMURREY: I have one question on that. We have an

16 agreement this was going to be examined by a doctor; is

17 that right?

18 MS McHENRY: Yes. There was an application and I can

19 verify with the witness, but I believe that -- I have

20 not had a chance to verify with the witness -- he has

21 been sent to a hospital.

22 JUDGE JAN: There is an application by the defence for a

23 medical examination.

24 MS McHENRY: I think there was a joint application by

25 Prosecution and Defence.

Page 1629

1 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: The application I saw is a joint one.

2 MS McHENRY: Yes. Sir, from this burning you showed us one

3 leg. Are there visible injuries on your other leg

4 remaining at the present time?

5 A. No.

6 Q. When approximately was it as best --

7 A. I can't hear you.

8 Q. I am going to try testing 1, 2, 3. Testing 1, 2, 3.

9 Can you hear me now, sir. I don't know. Maybe we can

10 try the other outlet. Sir, can you hear me now?

11 A. Yes, I can hear you now.

12 Q. Thank you. Sir, can you give us an approximate date

13 when it was that Mr Landzo burnt your legs, even a month

14 if you don't recall the exact date?

15 A. I am not sure about the date, but it happened somewhere

16 towards the end of June or in early July.

17 Q. Okay. Can you please describe -- you have described how

18 your leg was burnt and how the fire itself went out.

19 What happened after the fire went out?

20 A. After that, after the fire went out there was a blister

21 that appeared, and after that it became infected and it

22 was in a very bad state because of all the dust around.

23 It was full of pus all the time and my leg was swollen

24 and hurt.

25 Q. How long did your leg remain in this condition, infected

Page 1630

1 and full of pus?

2 A. Up until I was released, and I was released, I think, on

3 30th August, in late August; whether on 30th or 31st

4 August I am not sure.

5 Q. Sir, did you return to the hangar after you were burnt?

6 Immediately after the burn happened did you return to

7 the hangar?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Were the injuries on your leg visible to, for instance,

10 other people?

11 A. At that time you mean?

12 Q. Yes, sir.

13 A. Yes. They were visible, but I was trying to hide them

14 for quite some time. I was covering them with trousers

15 because when I was going to the infirmary, to the place

16 which they called the infirmary, in order to change the

17 bandages -- I mean the building there, C, then Delic

18 stopped me at the corner just in front of the building

19 and he asked me what happened to my legs. At the same

20 time Landzo was standing next to him, so I had to lie.

21 I did not know what to answer, because he knew what

22 happened, but he was simply provoking and asking me what

23 had happened.

24 Q. How long -- did you receive immediate medical care after

25 you were burnt?

Page 1631

1 A. No.

2 Q. Please tell us about when it was that you received

3 medical care and exactly what was done for you?

4 A. Maybe some seven days later -- I am not sure -- I am

5 quite sure it was about a week afterwards, and the two

6 physicians, Dr Petko and Relja -- Dr Petko -- I don't

7 know his surname, and as Dr Relja Mrkajic were there.

8 They were both physicians from Konjic and they were in

9 that infirmary -- I mean what the people from the camp

10 called the infirmary. They had some drugs there, so

11 they cleaned the wound slightly, and whenever I would

12 ask to go there so that they could clean the wound, very

13 often Delic would not allow me to go. He often told me

14 not to go and said: "You don't need that. You won't

15 last very long".

16 Q. Did at any point either -- did Mr Mucic ask you how you

17 received your injuries?

18 A. No, never.

19 Q. In addition to now the three incidents you have

20 described, are there any other specific incidents that

21 you remember where you were mistreated by Landzo?

22 A. He would beat me almost every day, but the very severe

23 beatings, that also happened on many occasions. One of

24 the -- one of his types of behaviour towards all of us

25 detainees at Celebici, he would take us out to piss and

Page 1632

1 when people would go out to piss, he ordered the others

2 to drink it, and I was one of those who had to drink

3 that. He would force us to do so.

4 Q. The times that Mr Landzo would mistreat you, besides the

5 ones you have already told us about, would he use any

6 instruments or would it just be with his --

7 MS McMURREY: Your Honour, I am going to object to her

8 leading form of questioning.

9 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Sustained, yes.

10 MS McMURREY: I think the proper question is what

11 happened. Thank you.

12 MS McHENRY: Sir, can you tell us in what manner you were

13 beaten on the other occasions by Mr Landzo?

14 A. He would usually beat me with a baseball bat. The bat

15 used for playing baseball. He would usually beat me and

16 the other detainees at the camp. He would beat me in

17 front of Hangar 7, the hangar I showed to you before.

18 He would beat me with a baseball bat there. I can't

19 remember how many times. I can't even remember that.

20 He used to take me out two or three times per day to

21 beat me, all in the same day.

22 Q. You have mentioned before Mr Delic. Was Mr Delic ever

23 present during your mistreatment or did he ever mistreat

24 you himself?

25 A. Yes. Mr Delic was present when Landzo was beating me in

Page 1633

1 front of Hangar 7 in that grassy area in front of Number

2 7. Let me just stand up. Zenga beat me here and Delic

3 was standing here and was looking at how Landzo was

4 beating me. Delic told him at some stage to stop or

5 something like that and then Zenga stopped beating me

6 and then he told him to take me back. Delic also --

7 Delic never took me out to beat me, but when he would

8 walk into Hangar Number 6 where we were sitting down on

9 the concrete, and then with a baseball bat he would come

10 and hit, whether every person or every other person it

11 did not matter, but anyway whenever he would pass by me

12 he would hit me at least twice or more. It was only one

13 time that he passed me by without hitting me.

14 Q. Now, sir, you have previously described both Mr Delic

15 and Mr Landzo. I am asking you: since you have come to

16 The Hague here to testify were you shown two series of

17 photographs and asked whether you recognised anyone?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Was what you said when asked this question written down

20 and then later signed by you?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Your Honour, I have an exhibit to show. In my system

23 I would normally have it marked before being shown to

24 the witness but if I understand your Honours correctly,

25 you would like me to show it to the witness first and

Page 1634

1 then have it marked; is that correct?

2 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: That is the better procedure.

3 MS McHENRY: Okay. This has previously been provided to

4 defence counsel. You can just show it to him and I have

5 extra copies for the court, please.

6 MS McMURREY: Your Honour, I would like to object for the

7 record. We do not have any objections to the way the

8 photo-spread was presented, but we believe that the

9 photo identification of Mr Landzo is invalid because the

10 witness has already testified that he knew him from high

11 school. They went to the same high school together, so

12 I do not see what the purpose of it is. Thank you.

13 MS McHENRY: If the defence counsel wishes to stipulate

14 that the witness was able to recognise Mr Landzo, that

15 is --

16 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Actually is identity in issue?

17 Mr Landzo's identity, is it in issue?

18 MS McHENRY: Not according to the Prosecution, but since we

19 do not know exactly what the defence is, if the defence

20 wishes --

21 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: The witness says he knows him.

22 MS McHENRY: He says he knows him, your Honour, and

23 I believe that is confirmed by everyone, including

24 Mr Landzo. They were in the same school; not

25 necessarily in the same class but in the same school.

Page 1635

1 That is what he is saying.

2 MS McHENRY: Yes, your Honour. If defence counsel wishes

3 to stipulate that identification is not an issue with

4 respect to this witness, then I will withdraw the entire

5 exhibit.

6 MS McMURREY: We will stipulate that he knew him from

7 before and so there is no problem with him recognising

8 him from Celebici.

9 JUDGE JAN: That answers your question.

10 MS McHENRY: Yes, your Honour.

11 JUDGE JAN: It is unnecessary to have them on the record

12 then.

13 MS McHENRY: Before I proceed further, let me just ask with

14 respect to Mr Delic if defence counsel wishes to

15 stipulate that the witness knew Mr Delic from before and

16 you could recognise him; otherwise I will continue with

17 another photo-spread.

18 MR MORAN: I think any stipulation -- before what? Knew

19 him before what?

20 JUDGE JAN: Before he went to the camp?

21 MS McHENRY: Whether or not the defence will agree that the

22 witness was able to recognise Mr Delic at the camp and

23 subsequently.

24 MR MORAN: We will stipulate to that, that he can recognise

25 Mr Delic's -- that he can recognise Mr Delic as the

Page 1636

1 person who was at the camp. We will stipulate to that.

2 MS McHENRY: That he could recognise Mr Delic, yes. Fine.

3 Thank you.

4 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: I do not know why you want these

5 photographs at all.

6 MS McHENRY: Your Honour, we had not been sure exactly what

7 the defence would and would not challenge, but with

8 these I do not believe it is necessary, so I will not

9 ask that they be admitted into evidence, given the

10 stipulations.

11 Sir, while you were in the camp, did you yourself

12 observe any incidents where the persons -- did you

13 witness any murders, sir?

14 A. Yes, I did.

15 Q. Can you please tell us what you know about the first

16 murder that you remember, and if you can, please tell us

17 approximately when it was this occurred?

18 A. I remember it very well when the late Simo Jovanovic was

19 called out from Hangar Number 6. He was taken out and

20 he was beaten for at least some forty minutes.

21 MS McMURREY: I am going to object to no personal

22 knowledge. He can testify the witness was taken out of

23 the hangar, but once the witness is taken out of the

24 hangar he has not witnessed anything of the sort. He

25 can testify as to his condition when he was taken out

Page 1637

1 and his condition when he was brought back in, but he

2 has no personal knowledge about what occurred outside

3 the hangar.

4 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: I thought that is what he was

5 testifying to, the condition when the person was brought

6 in or if he was never brought in again. This type of

7 testimony is expected of him.

8 MS McMURREY: He says he was taken out and beaten for at

9 least 40 minutes. I am saying he was testifying from no

10 personal knowledge there.

11 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Can we ask him how much he knew he was

12 being beaten.

13 MS McMURREY: Yes. Thank you.

14 MS McHENRY: Sir, would you please continue your answer.

15 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: That is not the point from where he is

16 continuing. Where is he continuing from?

17 MS McHENRY: I am sorry. Sir, with respect to

18 Mr Jovanovic, who was it who took him out of the hangar,

19 if you remember?

20 A. I heard that he was called out by Zenga.

21 MS McMURREY: I am going to object. He said he heard he

22 was called out by Zenga. Did he see or hear Zenga

23 himself. If he has no personal knowledge, then he

24 cannot testify to that.

25 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Were you there when he was called

Page 1638

1 out? Were you there when he was called out?

2 A. Yes.

3 MS McHENRY: Could you hear the voice of the person who

4 called him out?

5 A. Yes. I heard Zenga's voice.

6 Q. Once the person was taken out what, if anything, did you

7 hear or observe?

8 A. They beat him there. There were several of them. They

9 beat him and he was moaning and he was crying: "Please

10 don't do it, brothers".

11 MS McMURREY: I am going to object. He can testify to what

12 he hears, but since he was taken out of the hangar, he

13 does not know who was out there, what was happening. So

14 he is testifying from no personal knowledge about what

15 happened outside the hangar.

16 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: How did you know he was being beaten?

17 A. They beat him maybe 10 metres away from the door so that

18 we could hear his moans and we heard everything. We

19 heard him say: "Please don't do it, brothers" and we

20 could hear the blows. I don't know what they used to

21 beat him. Then after that he was carried in. They

22 called some people to go out and to bring him in, and

23 I know that he was dead in the morning, because

24 I carried him out together with Cedo Cecez and somebody

25 else. I don't know who it was. I don't remember his

Page 1639

1 name. I just know that Cedo Cecez and myself were also

2 there.

3 Q. Sir, during the time that you could hear the moans and

4 the blows could you recognise the voices of anyone else

5 besides the victim, Mr Jovanovic?

6 A. I could recognise the voice of Landzo and no other

7 voices. The others were unknown to me.

8 Q. Thank you. When you say that he was dead in the morning

9 and you carried him out, is that the next morning after

10 he was taken out and then returned?

11 A. He was taken -- carried out at night, maybe at 10 pm.

12 We didn't know what the time was. Maybe it was even

13 12. I'm not sure. Then in the morning when we got up

14 that man was lying there dead at his place.

15 Q. Do you remember who it was who brought him back in after

16 he was beaten?

17 A. I don't remember.

18 Q. Were there any other murders that you have information

19 from your own personal knowledge about in addition to

20 Mr Jovanovic?

21 A. Yes. There was a murder that happened in front of all

22 of us. They beat an old man. I don't know his name.

23 I know that he had two sons there and a brother. He was

24 an elderly man, maybe about 60 years old. He was small,

25 maybe 1.70 metres tall, and he had grey hair and he was

Page 1640

1 from Bradina. He was killed in front of all of us.

2 They beat him. Zenga was in that group. He was the one

3 who beat him the most. He fell down. I think he was in

4 a coma. Then the prisoner sitting next to me, he was

5 some kind of a nurse. He was doing in a lab -- he was

6 doing blood analysis. He jumped up and pulled out his

7 tongue. Then later on they transferred him to the

8 medical area and we heard that he died there in the

9 infirmary.

10 Q. When this man was being beaten what was being used to

11 beat him?

12 A. They have used everything. They beat him with planks,

13 rifle butts. They punched him, they kicked him. They

14 used all kinds of things.

15 Q. Apart --

16 A. Even a baseball bat. I am sorry.

17 Q. Approximately when did this beating occur, if you know?

18 What month or when in the month?

19 A. I think it was around St Peter's day, 12th July, because

20 I think that this was the time when some Muslim police

21 officers were killed in the Bradina area, and then they

22 started to beat the people from Bradina very severely.

23 Muslims thought that some Serbs from Bradina who

24 remained in the wood, that they had killed those Muslim

25 police officers. I don't know what kind of police it

Page 1641

1 was. I think it was the military police unit. Then

2 after that they beat the people from Bradina very

3 severely, and that was the time when this elderly man

4 died as a consequence of the beating.

5 Q. Are there any other murders, sir, that you have personal

6 information about?

7 A. Yes. There was the murder of Zjelko Klimenta, nicknamed

8 Keljo. He was taken out in the morning around 6 or

9 7am. It was in the early morning. The dawn had just

10 broken and the sun wasn't out yet but you could see very

11 well it was already light. He was taken out with a

12 group of other detainees and they talked for a while,

13 and then all of a sudden there was a shot and a man

14 walked back in and they said: "Keljo was killed".

15 Q. When approximately was Keljo killed, if you know?

16 A. In the early morning, maybe around 6.00 am.

17 Q. Do you know what month it was or approximately what

18 period of time when you were in the camp?

19 A. Maybe ten days or two weeks before the arrival of the

20 Red Cross, and the Red Cross arrived on 12th August

21 1992.

22 Q. Sir, where were you at the time that the Red Cross

23 came? Were you in Hangar Number 6 when the Red Cross

24 came to Celebici?

25 A. No. I was in the infirmary, as they called it.

Page 1642

1 Q. How long had you been at the infirmary?

2 A. A few days and then I was taken back to Hangar Number 6.

3 Q. When were you -- am I correct that a few days before the

4 Red Cross came you were moved to the infirmary? Did

5 I understand you correctly about that?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Then how long did you remain in the infirmary before you

8 were moved back to Hangar Number 6?

9 A. I think -- I am not sure now -- I think it was about a

10 day or two after the Red Cross left.

11 Q. Can you describe what happened when the Red Cross came?

12 A. They asked us -- that was the usual procedure: first

13 name, last name, date of birth, things like that. We

14 had to fill in some forms and then later on there was a

15 French woman. She was a doctor, and she examined my

16 wounds. She examined my wounds and they noted down my

17 statement. I gave a statement to the Red Cross. They

18 asked me what had happened and I told them everything

19 that had been done to us, what happened to my legs.

20 Then when the Red Cross left the camp, I think that

21 Delic ordered Shiptar, an Albanian person, who was a

22 cook there, and Zenga to -- in fact, I think that Zenga

23 was not in the camp at that time. There was this

24 Albanian man and a man from Forjak, who was also a guard

25 there. He ordered them to beat me. They beat me. Let

Page 1643

1 me just indicate the location. They beat me here at

2 this corner and Delic stood here, right in front of the

3 command building. Again he said: "Enough" and they

4 stopped.

5 Q. Sir, when was it that you were released from the camp?

6 A. I think it was on 30th August 1992, but I am not sure

7 about the date.

8 Q. Can you please describe what happened during your

9 release?

10 A. First, they released a group before I was released, and

11 then after maybe two hours they called out our names.

12 They called out our names and called us to go out and to

13 pick up our things, and I then went into an Iveco van.

14 There was some kind of a mattress inside on which we

15 sat. Then Pavo took all of us and his driver and we

16 went to the Third March School so that we can be given

17 release forms, that we had been released from the

18 Celebici camp. Then after that Pavo and his driver

19 drove us to the village of Bijelica. That is in Donje

20 Selo. It is like a hamlet. The locals call it Bijelica

21 or Ciba. I got out of the van there and Pavo gave me

22 the certificate indicating that I had been released from

23 the camp and that I had freedom of movement in the area

24 of Cerici. This happened in front of either Zoran

25 Cecez's house or Marko Cecez's house. This is where I

Page 1644

1 was allowed to get off the van.

2 Q. After you were released did you ever see Mr Mucic again?

3 A. Several times.

4 Q. Under what circumstances did you yourself see Mr Mucic

5 again?

6 A. What do you mean "circumstances"?

7 Q. For instance, where was it? Why was he there? Why were

8 you there? Can you just explain a little bit about

9 where it was and why it was that you saw Mr Mucic again?

10 A. He sometimes came to see my parents in their house, and

11 I also saw him sometimes when he passed by in his car.

12 Q. Were you ever present when Mr Mucic was at your house

13 and, if so, -- well, did you ever hear any of the

14 conversation between Mr Mucic and anyone in your family,

15 hear it yourself rather than be told it by others?

16 A. Yes, I heard personally.

17 Q. Okay. With respect to what you heard personally, what

18 was the subject of the discussion?

19 A. We talked about a number of things, but mostly the

20 discussion was about the release of some of our

21 relatives from the camp, from the prison.

22 Q. While you were present was there any discussion of

23 anyone besides Mr Mucic being involved in the decisions

24 to release prisoners?

25 A. I think that only on one occasion Pavo mentioned that he

Page 1645

1 had to ask Delalic, because he was the Commander, his

2 commander. I don't know.

3 Q. One second, please. Your Honours, at this time I would

4 move into evidence Prosecution Exhibit 86, which is the

5 diagram that the witness had drawn and earlier used?

6 JUDGE JAN: Just the one?

7 MS McHENRY: Yes, sir. Yes, your Honour: I do not need it

8 to be shown to the witness unless your Honours have any

9 question. He previously identified it. Before I tender

10 him for cross-examination, I just want to make sure the

11 record reflects it has been admitted into evidence.

12 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: It has been.

13 MS McHENRY: Thank you. I have no further questions for

14 this witness. Thank you.

15 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: In which order are you taking the

16 witness? Let us know.

17 MR O'SULLIVAN: First will be counsel for Mr Delic; then

18 counsel for Mr Landzo, followed by counsel for Mr Mucic

19 and lastly counsel for Mr Delalic

20 Cross-examination by Mr Moran.

21 MR MORAN: May it please the court.

22 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Thank you. You can proceed.

23 MR MORAN: Good afternoon, sir?

24 A. Good afternoon.

25 Q. My name is Tom Moran and, as you know, I am the defence

Page 1646

1 lawyer for Hazim Delic. I am going to ask you a few

2 questions and I would like you to listen to the

3 questions and just answer the questions I ask, and we

4 will be through this a lot quicker. Can you do that for

5 me, sir?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Okay. Fine. Thank you. Let me just start off at the

8 beginning of your testimony. You said that in your

9 village during the shelling the inhabitants were mostly

10 sheltered. What did you mean by that? Did you have

11 bunkers constructed?

12 A. No. There were no shelters that had been built but

13 there was a part -- an area near Sudarif Podok. That is

14 near the upper part of the village of Cerici, and there

15 is a little dale next to a stream, and this is some kind

16 of a natural shelter. Nobody had constructed any kind

17 of shelters in Cerici, as far as I know. All the people

18 were either there or in Malo Osoija, which is also a

19 fairly wooded area.

20 Q. Okay, sir. Thank you very much. When you were first

21 brought to Celebici were you beaten while you were

22 searched at the wall?

23 A. No.

24 Q. So basically all that happened is that you were checked

25 into the camp. You were searched, valuables were taken

Page 1647

1 from you and taken into custody and then you were moved

2 to tunnel 9; is that correct?

3 A. Could you please repeat your question?

4 Q. Yes, sir, I would be happy to. By the way, if I ask a

5 question you do not understand, I would be happy to

6 rephrase, it repeat it, whatever you makes you

7 comfortable, sir. Basically when you were at the wall,

8 right after you were brought to Celebici, what occurred

9 was you were searched, valuables were taken from your

10 custody and taken into the custody of someone else and

11 you were basically just checked into the camp, and then

12 moved to tunnel 9; is that correct?

13 A. This is correct, but I did not have any valuables on

14 me. They didn't take any valuables from me. I just had

15 my personal ID card and they returned that to me later.

16 Q. But if other people that were with you had valuables,

17 those were taken into the custody of the guards; is that

18 correct? What I am getting at is there was a routine

19 essentially checking into a custody facility; is that

20 correct?

21 A. I don't know that anything was taken away from anyone

22 else. I didn't see that.

23 Q. Okay. That is fine, sir. Now you were in tunnel 9 for

24 a couple of days and then you were transferred to what

25 you call the infirmary. I am just going to ask you a

Page 1648

1 little bit about that building. It had some windows in

2 it, did it not?

3 A. Where?

4 Q. In the building that you refer to as the infirmary.

5 A. Yes. There were windows.

6 Q. But they were not clear glass like the glass behind

7 you. You could not see out them, could you?

8 A. You could see through them.

9 Q. Okay. Fine, sir. Then after you were in that building

10 for several days you were then transferred to Hangar

11 Number 6, and you testified at some length about the

12 conditions in Hangar Number 6. I believe you either

13 said in your testimony or you said in your statement

14 that there were no blankets available; is that not

15 correct?

16 A. Yes, that is correct.

17 Q. Sir, do you recall an incident or an occurrence where

18 there were some detainees that had blankets and Mr Delic

19 had the blankets cut up so that everyone, or as many

20 people as could would have a piece of blanket?

21 A. I know that for a time some people who went out to work

22 to unload things that they brought back the blankets. I

23 am not sure whether he did that. I can't confirm. I

24 don't know. He have may have; he may have not. I am

25 not sure.

Page 1649

1 Q. You just do not know?

2 A. I don't know.

3 Q. That is fine. You also talked quite a bit about the

4 food while you were in Hangar 6. Do you know whether

5 the food was cooked in the camp or whether it was

6 brought in?

7 A. I don't know.

8 Q. Do you know anything about the rations that the guards

9 were eating, how they compared with what you had?

10 A. Nobody told us that at any point.

11 Q. Water in hangar 22. You either testified on direct

12 examination or you said in your statement and I frankly

13 do not remember which, that there was no water

14 available. Is that not correct? That is what you said?

15 A. It wasn't in Number 22. It was in Number 6.

16 Q. Number 6. I am sorry. There was -- while you were in

17 Hangar 6 there were buckets of water that were available

18 for the use of the detainees, were there not, to drink?

19 A. I don't know that there were there at any time.

20 Q. You never saw any there?

21 A. There were buckets that people could use if they had to

22 defecate or urinate. I don't know anything about any

23 buckets with water.

24 Q. Okay. You also testified on direct examination that a

25 group of three guards or possibly four guards -- you

Page 1650

1 only knew the names of three -- on several occasions

2 beat you, and one of those guards was an Osman Dedic,

3 D-E-D-I-C. Do you recall that?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. That was not Hazim Delic; they are two different people?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. I wanted to clear that up because the names sounded

8 similar and I wanted to ensure that the court understood

9 they were two different folks.

10 Your Honour, at this point I will pass the

11 witness.

12 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Thank you very much, Mr Moran.

13 Cross-examination by Ms McMurrey.

14 MS McMURREY: May it please the court, may I proceed?

15 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Yes, you can.

16 MS McMURREY: Thank you. Mr Draganic, my name is Cynthia

17 McMurrey and I am a defence counsel obviously. You

18 visited with the prosecution on October 23rd and October

19 25th in 1995, is that not correct?

20 A. I don't know the exact dates.

21 Q. Some time in 1995, that is the same time you drew the

22 prosecution exhibit, is it not?

23 A. (Nodded.)

24 Q. Okay. You said also your profession is a computer

25 programmer, did you not?

Page 1651

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Can you tell us where you work as a computer

3 programmer?

4 MS McHENRY: Objection, your Honour. Given that this

5 witness as far as I know -- is she asking about 1992 or

6 now because if she is talking about now I object,

7 because I do not believe it is appropriate that this

8 witness' country, much less place of employment, be

9 given.

10 MS McMURREY: Well, I had assumed he was still working in

11 the Konjic area I may be wrong, but I was assuming that

12 and this was for impeachment purposes, because I have

13 been informed that he really is not working as a

14 computer programmer in that area. So I am asking him.

15 JUDGE JAN: Ask him directly.

16 MS McMURREY: Yes.

17 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Ask him the question.

18 MS McMURREY: Tell us where you are working as a computer

19 programmer.

20 MS McHENRY: Objection, your Honour.

21 MS McMURREY: Are you working as a computer programmer in

22 the Konjic area now?

23 A. No.

24 Q. Okay. You are from Cerici, which is near Donje Selo,

25 are you not?

Page 1652

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. In 1992, Cerici was all Serbian, was it not?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. You were born in Bosnia-Herzegovina, were you not?

5 A. I was born in the former Yugoslavia, in the Republic of

6 Bosnia-Herzegovina.

7 Q. You had the right, because you were 18 years old in

8 1992, so you could have voted or did vote in the March

9 1st referendum, did you not?

10 A. Which referendum?

11 Q. There was a referendum on March 1st, 1992 in which the

12 Bosnians voted to declare independence from Yugoslavia.

13 Did you vote in that?

14 A. No.

15 Q. But you could have voted, because the voting age in

16 Yugoslavia was 18, was it not?

17 A. I did not vote.

18 Q. The question was: but you could have voted, had you

19 wanted to, could you not have?

20 A. I don't know.

21 Q. Okay. You also stated before that you were too young to

22 be recruited into the military service in 1992, did you

23 not?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. But, in fact, you were 19 years old in 1992 and there

Page 1653

1 really is no minimum age limit for military service in

2 Bosnia-Herzegovina, is there?

3 A. This was not in Bosnia-Herzegovina. That was the

4 socialist Federal Republic of Yugoslavia, and since I

5 was at high school after I graduated from the high

6 school, I was supposed to do my national service in the

7 Yugoslav National People's Army, or had I enrolled at

8 college, then I could have gone on to do my national

9 service after my college. I don't know anything about

10 any laws for Bosnia and Herzegovina.

11 Q. But you are aware that after March 1st there was no more

12 -- Bosnia was an independent country. It was not part

13 of the Yugoslavia Republic, was it?

14 MS McHENRY: I am going to object to that because it is

15 assuming facts not in evidence. In fact, it is not

16 correct that after March 1st --

17 MS McMURREY: I am just asking him if he knows.

18 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: If he knows, let him say. Do you

19 know?

20 A. I don't know anything about that. I was not informed.

21 MS McMURREY: You were in school at the time, though, were

22 you not?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. I believe you were studying some kind of special

25 mathematics school, were you not?

Page 1654

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. So as an intelligent, educated man, are you saying you

3 did not read the newspaper; you did not listen to the

4 news?

5 A. I am not interested in politics. Even today I don't

6 follow that. I'm not interested in it.

7 Q. The truth it you stated you were too young to go into

8 the military service, but you are actually older than

9 Mr Landzo, are you not?

10 A. Yes. The thing is I was going to school at the time and

11 according to the Yugoslav law, once you finish high

12 school you go and do your service in the army, and in

13 case you go to college or some kind of a university, you

14 could postpone the national service and do it

15 afterwards. I hope that is clear now.

16 Q. Yes, but when Bosnia declared its independence and the

17 shelling of the Konjic area started, there was no more

18 school for you to attend right then, was there?

19 A. No, there wasn't any school any more.

20 Q. Thank you. You said the attack on Cerici began about

21 May 19th or 20th; is that not true?

22 A. Thereabouts.

23 Q. You said that you were arrested with other members of

24 your family on May 23rd; is that not right?

25 A. My brother and myself.

Page 1655

1 Q. Okay. You and your brother were arrested by a

2 combination of forces. There were people from the

3 military police, people from the HVO and people from the

4 TO present, were there not?

5 A. Could you please repeat the question?

6 Q. When you were arrested, you were arrested by the

7 combined force of military police, Territorial Defence

8 and the HVO, Croatian forces, were you not?

9 A. I don't recall that there was any kind of military

10 police there. There was only the HVO and the

11 Territorial Defence.

12 Q. So you were not aware that the military police drove

13 through the town of Cerici and announced and asked the

14 people to turn down their weapons peacefully, and they

15 answered the military police by firing? You do not

16 recall that?

17 A. When was that?

18 Q. That was on May 19th or 20th of 1992.

19 A. I don't know that anybody shot five of them. Certainly

20 not in Cerici.

21 Q. Not shot five of them; fired their weapons in response

22 to the request for laying down their weapons?

23 MS McHENRY: May I object and at least ask for

24 clarification as to exactly whether or not the defence

25 counsel is asking a question or providing information.

Page 1656

1 If I could just have the exact question being asked of

2 the witness clarified.

3 MS McMURREY: I will be happy to try. My question is: On

4 May 19th or May 20th, 1992 you do not remember the

5 military police driving through your village, announcing

6 over a loudspeaker for you to lay your arms down

7 peacefully --

8 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: What answer do you expect?

9 MS McMURREY: I want him to say whether he remembers that or

10 not. Do you remember or not?

11 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: That is not the type of question you

12 ask.

13 MS McMURREY: Do you remember that or not?

14 MS McHENRY: I am going to object. She can ask if he knows

15 or not. "Do you remember" first of all assumes it is a

16 fact. I object to that. I do not object if she wants

17 to ask the witness if he knows that happened, without

18 assuming, in fact, it did happen.

19 MS McMURREY: Do you recall this happening at all?

20 MS McHENRY: Same objection. I would ask her if the

21 witness knows if this happened.

22 MS McMURREY: Do you have any memory of this happening?

23 MS McHENRY: Same objection.

24 MS McMURREY: If he does, fine. If he does not, I am not

25 stating a fact if he does not know it.

Page 1657

1 MS McHENRY: I have no objection if she wants to ask if the

2 witness knows.

3 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: I think this type of dialogue is

4 unprecedented. Let me take the witness for you. You

5 are being asked on the day your village was taken

6 certain members of your community fired at the HVO and

7 Territorial Army; is that so?

8 A. I hear of that for the first time.

9 MS McMURREY: Okay.

10 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Would you pursue this again?

11 MS McMURREY: I will proceed now. Thank you. You did know

12 that many Serbs in your village were armed, did you not?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. In fact, you knew your neighbour, Lazo Cecez from Donje

15 Selo, did you not?

16 A. I do not know him. How can he be my neighbour if he

17 lives 3 kms away from where I lived?

18 Q. Is Cerici really a suburb of Donje Selo? Right?

19 A. No. Cerici is a village apart. The only thing is that

20 the local commune is the same. It's the same local

21 commune, Donje Selo.

22 Q. Do you know Lazo Cecez?

23 A. Yes. I used to know Lazo Cecez.

24 Q. You also knew that he was in charge of distributing the

25 weapons to the Serbian villages of Donje Selo and

Page 1658

1 Cerici, did you not?

2 A. No. I did not know that.

3 Q. You do know that he was the husband of Grosdana Cecez,

4 do you not?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. The villagers of Donje Selo and Cerici were armed by the

7 ex-JNA and the SDS forces, were they not?

8 A. I don't know.

9 Q. In fact, your father had a weapon in 1992, did he not?

10 A. Yes, he had a weapon.

11 Q. Your father did turn over his weapon to the TO, did he

12 not?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. You knew also that Miro Golubovic and Milovan Kuljanin,

15 Mici, were armed, did you not?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. In fact, Milovan Kuljanin had a special weapon with a

18 scope on it for sniping, did he not?

19 A. As far as I know, that was a hunting sniper, not a

20 military one.

21 Q. Miro Golabovic had a semi-automatic rifle, did he not?

22 A. I don't know what he had.

23 Q. Okay. Now, did you say that there was not any armed

24 resistance of Cerici against the attack on May 19th and

25 May 20th?

Page 1659

1 A. As far as I know there was no attack, neither any -- nor

2 defence. They were shooting and they asked the

3 Territorial Defence from Cerici to surrender.

4 Q. Cerici did not surrender until May 23rd, did it?

5 A. No. Cerici surrendered earlier than that, I think on

6 22nd. It was the first village to surrender. Later on

7 Ciba surrendered and then Donje Selo and then Kuljanin.

8 Q. It is obvious it took at least three or four days to

9 liberate Cerici, did it not?

10 A. How do you mean to liberate Cerici?

11 Q. I mean, to come in and capture the city. It took three

12 to four days, did it not? If it started on May 19th and

13 they surrendered, or you were arrested on May 23rd, how

14 many days is that?

15 A. On the morning on 23rd they entered when everybody who

16 had any weapons surrendered their arms. Then they

17 entered, the Muslim and the Croat troops, that is.

18 Q. But they began the attack on 19th or 20th, as you stated

19 before; correct?

20 A. I am not sure about the date, whether it was on 19th or

21 the 20th.

22 Q. Okay.

23 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Now, counsel, I think we will have to

24 break and reassemble at 4.15.

25 MS McMURREY: Okay. Thank you.

Page 1660

1 (3.45pm)

2 (short break).

3 (4.20pm)

4 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: The witness is still on his oath. Let

5 him appreciate that.

6 THE REGISTRAR: May I remind you that you are still under

7 oath.

8 A. Yes.

9 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Counsel can continue.

10 MS McMURREY: Okay. Thank you, your Honour.

11 Mr Draganic, I just wanted to clarify something.

12 We went through the dates of the attack on Cerici. You

13 are not telling this court today that there was no

14 attack on Cerici and that there was no defence, are you?

15 A. That is not what I said. I said that they shelled.

16 I mean, the Muslim Croatian coalition shelled Cerici for

17 a full day, and that evening those people called from

18 Cerici saying that they would surrender. Then they

19 stopped shelling Cerici.

20 Q. But you are telling this court too that you remember

21 that there were weapons and bullets fired back at the

22 people that were attacking Cerici; right?

23 A. No, I did not say that.

24 Q. You mean, you did not tell us earlier that there were

25 people who were armed who did fire their weapons during

Page 1661

1 this period of time?

2 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: He did not say that. He did not. You

3 suggested but he denied it.

4 MS McMURREY: Okay. I thought he said it. Okay. So just for

5 clarification, you are saying there was no defence of

6 Cerici? Is that what you are saying?

7 A. There was some kind of defence, but there was no firing:

8 it was only them who shelled Cerici. The Muslim area

9 was shelling Cerici, and after that the people from

10 Cerici called them to surrender. If you think that this

11 is an attack which was answered by some defence, I do

12 not see it like that.

13 Q. Okay. Just one second, your Honour. Now you also said

14 you had this mathematics background, did you not, and

15 you stated on May 21ST your village was shelled and a

16 shell fell about every 40 seconds, did you not?

17 A. Yes. A shell would fall every 40 seconds, but I am not

18 sure about the date. I think it was 21st May 1992.

19 Q. Okay. So if a shell fell every 40 seconds on 21st May,

20 that would be two days times 1 shell every 40 seconds,

21 that would result in more shells than the number of

22 shells that fell on Konjic for 1,000 days, would it not?

23 JUDGE JAN: How would he know?

24 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Multiplying it you get to that.

25 MS McMURREY: If he knows.

Page 1662

1 JUDGE JAN: How would he know? Calculations, I am not

2 sure.

3 MS McMURREY: If he claims there is one shell every 40

4 seconds.

5 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: For how many hours?

6 MS McMURREY: He says for a full day. So 24 hours times 60

7 shells a minute, it is an outrageous amount of shells he

8 is claiming. That is all I am trying to point out.

9 A. First of all, I did not say it lasted for 24 days. The

10 shelling started in the morning and stopped in the

11 evening when they called the telephone, the Territorial

12 Defence, saying they would surrender. The shelling

13 lasted for one day, as far as I recall.

14 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: A day of 24 hours or of 12 hours? It

15 depends, because you can count a day morning to evening

16 or morning to the next morning.

17 MS McMURREY: Let us say it is 12 hours?

18 A. I did not say it lasted for 12 hours. I said it started

19 in the morning and ended in the evening. I do not know

20 for sure how many hours it lasted.

21 Q. I am just taking an average day from sun up to sunset is

22 probably about 12 hours. Would you agree with me on

23 that?

24 MS McHENRY: Your Honour, I object to the relevancy.

25 MS McMURREY: He is the one who made the statement about

Page 1663

1 how much shelling occurred in one date. I am just

2 trying to clarify and test his knowledge, your Honour.

3 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Why do you pursue it if it is of no

4 value to anyone?

5 MS McMURREY: I think it was an unreasonable statement for

6 him to make. My purpose is impeach him with his own

7 statement.

8 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: What does it go to?

9 MS McMURREY: It goes to the fact that he is making

10 outrageous statements that cannot be fact.

11 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: What is the benefit to your client?

12 MS McMURREY: Well, just going about the whole thing about

13 whether he is telling the truth about whether they were

14 armed, whether they fired back. If he is not telling the

15 truth --

16 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Okay. Go on.

17 MS McMURREY: Anyway, I am finished with that.

18 Then when you were arrested on May 23rd with your

19 brother, you were beaten before you were taken to

20 Celebici, were you not?

21 A. No. Nobody beat me.

22 Q. Going back a while ago, you did state that during the

23 shelling the Muslim forces were shelling Cerici, did you

24 not?

25 A. I did not say the Muslim forces. I said it was the

Page 1664

1 coalition of Muslim and Croat forces that attacked

2 Cerici together.

3 Q. Okay. Thank you. I am sorry. I did not get the answer.

4 Were you beaten on your way to Celebici?

5 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: He said he was not.

6 MS McMURREY: Okay. Thank you. You also stated when you

7 arrived at Celebici and you were placed on the wall, you

8 were not beaten at that time either, were you?

9 A. No, we weren't.

10 Q. You said you were taken to Tunnel Number 9 first. You

11 did state that the only light in Tunnel Number 9 during

12 the day was the window over the door or the light that

13 came in over the door; is that correct?

14 A. Yes. That is correct, and also when someone would open

15 the door.

16 Q. Also at night-time there was no light in Tunnel Number

17 9, was there?

18 A. No, there was never any light during the night.

19 Q. Also then after you were taken out of Tunnel Number 9

20 you were moved to the infirmary or building Number 22,

21 or the shed. I am sorry. Were you not? You were moved

22 to that little building next to the command centre, were

23 you not?

24 A. Yes, after two to three days I was transferred from

25 Tunnel Number 9 into the building that later on was

Page 1665

1 called the infirmary.

2 Q. You also know that in the infirmary there are just a few

3 windows on the back, and they are covered with an opaque

4 glass that cannot be seen through; is that not correct?

5 MS McHENRY: Objection. Asked and answered.

6 MS McMURREY: I believe he said he could not see out of it.

7 I want to make sure it was an opaque glass.

8 JUDGE JAN: I thought he said he could see through it.

9 MS McMURREY: I am sorry. Did you say you could see through

10 the windows of building Number 22? I thought you said

11 you could not see through the windows of building Number

12 22?

13 A. One could see just a bit through the window.

14 Q. But these windows were covered with a glass that is

15 frosted. It is not clear, is it?

16 A. The glass was -- what it was like -- I can't remember

17 what it is called. One could not see very well through

18 it, but one could still see.

19 Q. You mean you could see light through it but you could

20 not see -- never mind. You admit that it was not a clear

21 glass, was it?

22 A. One could see but I do not really know what you mean

23 when you say a clear glass.

24 Q. It was not like this glass behind your head, was it?

25 A. No.

Page 1666

1 Q. In fact, it was more like the glass of a Coca-Cola

2 bottle, was it not?

3 A. (Gestured).

4 Q. Okay thank you. You also stated that you were interested

5 in weapons and hunting; is that not true?

6 A. Did I say that? I don't believe I said that.

7 Q. I did earlier today. You said you could identify certain

8 weapons like M-48s and automatic weapons. Did you not

9 refer to weapons earlier today?

10 A. Yes, I am able to identify different weapons, because I

11 had such a class at school. It was called the People's

12 Defence, where we learned all kinds of weapons that

13 existed in the former Yugoslavia. We used to learn about

14 all kinds of rifles, automatic, semi-automatic, and

15 dismantled them and everything. That is where I learned

16 about that.

17 Q. Is it not true that the only weapon you were able to use

18 in this class was an M-48? Is that not correct?

19 A. That is not correct. We used to see the old type of a

20 machine gun. I can't remember what it's called exactly.

21 It's an old machine gun with the -- I think it is M-48

22 or M-52, the one that dates from the Second World War.

23 We used to handle that in the class.

24 Q. You also stated earlier that Milovan Kuljanin had a gun

25 with a scope and you said it was definitely a hunting

Page 1667

1 rifle. Did you not say that?

2 A. Yes, it was a hunting weapon.

3 Q. You also told this court that you know the difference

4 between automatic and semi-automatic rifles, do you not?

5 A. Yes, that's what I learned at school.

6 Q. The only place you have had contact with these kind of

7 weapons is at school; is that what you are telling this

8 court?

9 A. It depends on what kind of weapons.

10 Q. The weapons that you had available to you, that the SDS

11 provided for your friends and families in Cerici?

12 MS McHENRY: Objection.

13 MS McMURREY: Your Honours, he testified he knew about the

14 guns that his friends and acquaintances had in his

15 village before we broke.

16 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Did he?

17 MS McMURREY: Yes.

18 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: I do not remember hearing that.

19 MS McMURREY: I asked him specifically about certain people

20 and what they had and he testified as to that.

21 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: As to the type of guns they had.

22 MS McMURREY: Yes, he did.

23 JUDGE JAN: Your question is slightly different. You asked

24 him something which he has not said, that the SDS

25 provided these guns.

Page 1668

1 MS McMURREY: I take back the SDS part. You are familiar

2 with the type of guns your friends and relatives had in

3 their possession in Cerici, are you not?

4 MS McHENRY: I am going to object as to relevance.

5 JUDGE JAN: I think it is relevant. She wants to know he

6 knows about these weapons. I think it is quite relevant.

7 MS McMURREY: So, Mr Draganic, would you answer my

8 question, please?

9 A. Can you please repeat it?

10 MS McMURREY: I don't know. Let me see. You are familiar

11 with the weapons that your relatives and friends

12 possessed in Cerici in 1992, are you not?

13 A. I was familiar with the weapons from my course at

14 school, from the course in all People's Defence, and

15 when I saw somebody carry a rifle on their shoulder,

16 I could identify that weapon, that rifle from the

17 pictures that I had seen during that course in school.

18 We did not learn only about rifles. We learned about

19 pistols, tanks and the entire -- all the aspects of the

20 national defence of the Socialist Federal Republic of

21 Yugoslavia.

22 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: That is not the question. The question

23 is: you are familiar with the guns your relatives and

24 friends have? Are you familiar with the guns your

25 friends and relatives have?

Page 1669

1 A. I could identify the rifles that they had.

2 MS McMURREY: Thank you very much. Earlier in your

3 testimony you mentioned a guard named Zenga. You know

4 Zenga is Mr Landzo and you knew Mr Landzo from high

5 school, did you not?

6 A. Yes, I used to see him at school. That's high school.

7 Q. In fact, he is about your age, just a little bit

8 younger, is he not?

9 A. I think he is one year younger than I am.

10 Q. You knew that he hung around with a different group of

11 people than you did at that time, did you not?

12 A. We just knew each other from school. This is a

13 relatively small town and everybody knew everybody else.

14 We knew each other because we went to the same class

15 rooms and he was in the Forestry department and I was in

16 the gymnasium, and both the mathematics department and

17 the Forestry department were in the same building, the

18 gymnasium. So I used to see him in the halls during the

19 breaks and after our classes.

20 Q. You knew that he associated with many Serbian

21 schoolboys, too, did you not?

22 A. He may have. I don't know. I did not pay much attention

23 to that.

24 Q. In fact, you said earlier that you knew him from the

25 cafes or coffee shops. You knew that he hung around with

Page 1670

1 a boy named Mici or Gusac, did you not?

2 A. I don't know that for a fact, that he hung around with

3 him. He have may have; he may have not. I am not sure.

4 Q. You knew a boy named Memco, did you not?

5 A. Memco?

6 Q. Memco.

7 A. I think I knew him. I can't remember now.

8 Q. While you were in school you were beaten up by a group

9 of schoolboys, were you not?

10 A. Not in school.

11 Q. Well, outside of school you were beaten up by another

12 group of schoolboys, were you not?

13 A. I was not beaten up. There may have been a scuffle with

14 one or maybe two of them.

15 Q. In fact, you told a lot of your friends at school that

16 Mr Landzo was the one that you had the fight with, did

17 you not?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. You also stated that he was -- well, I will take this

20 back. Thank you. You mentioned that while you were in

21 the Tunnel Number 9 that you were taken to an

22 administration building and you were asked questions by

23 an investigator, were you not?

24 A. It was not in Tunnel Number 9. We were taken out one by

25 one, or maybe in pairs. I think it was one by one. So

Page 1671

1 we went there, sat at the desk and they asked us our

2 names and checked our IDs and asked other questions.

3 Q. In fact, yesterday in your testimony you said they asked

4 you stupid questions like: "Were you a member of the

5 SDS? Did you have weapons?" Is that not true?

6 A. Yesterday?

7 Q. I am sorry. This morning you said that. All the days are

8 running together. I am sorry.

9 A. Yes. They asked me questions such as -- I don't know.

10 They asked me about weapons, who had brought the weapons

11 in and I did not know about that. Then who was the

12 Commander for Cerici and things like that.

13 Q. Thank you. Now you did tell us this morning about a

14 specific incident that you remember that happened on

15 July 12th of 1992, did you not? I mean, besides St

16 Peter's day?

17 A. Yes. I think it was around St Peter's day.

18 Q. You talked about how an older man was beaten by

19 Mr Landzo and other guards and how his tongue had gone

20 back and a male nurse had come out and gotten his tongue

21 out. Now the man you were talking about, his name was

22 Bosko Samoukovic, was it not?

23 A. I am not sure about his name. He was not a doctor. He

24 worked in a lab, blood analysis. He probably knew the

25 basic things about how to provide assistance and first

Page 1672

1 --

2 Q. Mr Draganic, I am sorry. I did not make myself clear. I

3 am trying to ask you about the older gentleman that was

4 being beaten, not the male nurse. The older gentleman,

5 his name was Bosko Samoukovic, was it not?

6 A. I am not sure about the name.

7 Q. Okay. I want to ask you about a person named Miljanic.

8 When you were first brought into the camp there was an

9 older gentleman named Miljanic that was beaten, that

10 died somewhere around May 27th, 1992, did he not?

11 A. I don't know about that person Miljanic. I think I may

12 have made a mistake as regards the names when I was

13 giving the statement.

14 Q. Thank you very much: I want to ask you: you were aware

15 that Mr Landzo has an injury to his hand, are you not,

16 to his right hand?

17 A. I don't know which hand it was, but for a while one of

18 his hands was bandaged. I don't know if it was a plaster

19 cast or a bandage but something like that.

20 Q. You never saw any blood from this injury, did you?

21 A. I don't think so.

22 Q. In fact, this injury could have happened way before

23 Celebici, could it not have?

24 A. I think that it happened in Celebici, that he sustained

25 it in Celebici.

Page 1673

1 Q. Now you testified earlier this morning that there was a

2 Simo Jovanovic that was beaten at Celebici, did you not?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. You said that Mr Landzo -- from your testimony you said

5 that Mr Landzo took him out, but from outside the only

6 -- there were other voices but the only voice you

7 recognised was Mr Landzo's; is that not true?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. There were other voices and then you did not see who

10 brought him back in, did you?

11 A. No.

12 Q. So the only knowledge that you have about what happened

13 to Simo Jovanovic is the fact that Mr Landzo took him

14 out. You do not have any personal knowledge about what

15 happened outside the hangar, do you?

16 A. I don't know what happened outside the hangar. I will

17 repeat: I heard that he was beaten. You could hear the

18 blows and you could hear the late Simo Jovanovic calling

19 for help and moaning.

20 Q. But you do not know who was doing the beating outside

21 the hangar, do you?

22 A. No.

23 Q. You told us about a Zeljko Klimenta earlier. Now that

24 person was friendly with the guards, was he not?

25 A. Yes. They would let him go out. He would be going out

Page 1674

1 quite often.

2 Q. In fact, the morning that you described he had gone out

3 to have a cigarette with the guards, had he not?

4 A. I think that it happened that way.

5 Q. Then you heard a shot outside, did you not?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Then you know that one of the guards was crying and that

8 that was an accidental shooting, do you not?

9 A. I did not see anyone cry, because I was in there, inside

10 Number 6, and I didn't hear anyone cry.

11 Q. So you really do not know what happened other than you

12 know that there was a bullet shot and then Mr Klimenta

13 was dead?

14 A. Yes. I just heard the shot and then the two people who

15 were with him outside got in and they just said: "Well,

16 Keljo got killed".

17 Q. The guards never came into the hangar during the night,

18 did they?

19 A. Yes, they did get in the hangar.

20 Q. They came into the hangar at night-time, after dark?

21 A. Yes, they did come in.

22 Q. Most of the guards were young and scared, were they not?

23 A. I don't think that they were scared, but they were

24 young. Most of them were young.

25 Q. Most of them were about your age, were they not?

Page 1675

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. You know that most of them had never served military

3 service before this time, had they?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Most of the guards just followed orders, did they not?

6 A.

7 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please. We cannot hear the

8 voice.

9 JUDGE JAN: A little louder, please.

10 MS McMURREY: It is all right. I will go on to the next

11 question. You did not see Mr Landzo at Celebici before

12 mid-June, did you?

13 THE INTERPRETER: There is no sound. There is no sound. We

14 can't hear anything.

15 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: I think the equipment might be faulty.

16 Try and check it. The interpreters are not hearing it.

17 THE INTERPRETER: The English booth cannot hear the witness.

18 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Check his mike and see whether they

19 can hear him. (Pause.)

20 Okay. The Trial Chamber will rise for about ten,

21 fifteen minutes, to give them sufficient time to work on

22 this.

23 (4.55 pm)

24 (Short break)

25 (5.10 pm)

Page 1676

1 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Okay. Remind him he is still a witness

2 on his oath.

3 THE REGISTRAR: May I remind you that you are still under

4 oath?

5 A. All right.

6 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: You can continue.

7 MS McMURREY: Thank you, your Honours. Mr Draganic, I just

8 want to go back to the injury that you showed us earlier

9 today, when you lifted your leg up here, and I wanted to

10 ask you: that injury looked as if it had some pink

11 fresh scratches on it. Did you recently injure it?

12 A. No. The doctor made some examinations with a needle to

13 verify what degree burns these are, and he examined me

14 to see whether I had any sensation of pain in that area.

15 Q. So the scrapes were caused from your examination; is

16 that what you are saying?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. You also stated that you had put both legs up that day

19 and that both legs were severely burnt, but you only

20 have injury, a scar on one leg; is that correct?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. You did not bring any medical records with you other

23 than our examination that we have done here at the

24 Tribunal. You have no medical records about when this

25 injury occurred or how it occurred, do you?

Page 1677

1 A. I don't have any proof of that, because when I was

2 released to be in house arrest in Cerici, I was treated

3 by a doctor by the name of Mikilo. He was some kind of

4 an assistant to the doctor in the Health Care Centre. He

5 brought some penicillin and treated the wound.

6 Q. So the prosecution could have had access to these

7 medical records. Is that what you are saying?

8 A. I don't think that they could have obtained these

9 records, because I did not go to the hospital. He came

10 to my home, because he lives in the same village. He was

11 married there.

12 Q. But you did not bring any medical records with you, did

13 you?

14 A. No, I have not brought any medical records.

15 Q. So this injury could have occurred in 1995, could it not

16 have?

17 MS McHENRY: Objection. Asked and answered.

18 JUDGE JAN: It was a suggestion. She can put it to him.

19 MS McMURREY: This injury could have happened in 1995,

20 could it not have?

21 A. No. It could not have occurred.

22 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Are you suggesting the form it took in

23 1995?

24 JUDGE JAN: You can say "I suggest to you this wound was

25 caused to you in 1995".

Page 1678

1 MS McMURREY: I am sorry. I did not hear.

2 JUDGE JAN: You could say: "I suggest to you the injury

3 was caused in 1995." You can always make a suggestion

4 and the witness can deny it.

5 MS McMURREY: I suggest to you this injury could have

6 occurred in 1995, could it not have?

7 A. No, it could not have occurred in 1995, because there

8 are the records of the Red Cross, the doctor from the

9 International Red Cross. I was registered by the Red

10 Cross on 12th August 1992, and the doctor of the Red

11 Cross saw that I had burns on both of my legs.

12 Q. What I am saying to you is we do not have any evidence

13 other than your testimony today that that occurred in

14 1992, do we?

15 MS McHENRY: Your Honour, I object to that. First of all,

16 it is incorrect.

17 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: The point has been made.

18 MS McMURREY: You also stated that you received medical

19 care at Celebici seven days after this occurrence, did

20 you not?

21 A. I think it was. I don't know how many days, but maybe

22 five or even seven. Maybe ten days. I don't know how

23 many days had passed after the burning. In fact, after I

24 was burned by him until I received medical assistance

25 for the first time.

Page 1679

1 Q. That is because the wound was not infected until several

2 days later, was it?

3 A. Not because of that, but because we were not allowed to

4 leave Number 6. They started letting us go out and go

5 there. That was for the people who had burns or other

6 kinds of injuries. Dusko, nicknamed Sakane, had also

7 been burned by Zenga and Spasoje. I don't --

8 MS McMURREY: I am going to object. He is not answering my

9 question, number one. Number two, he is testifying from

10 absolutely no personal knowledge, unless he saw this

11 occurrence.

12 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: What are you objecting to?

13 MS McMURREY: I am objecting that he was testifying from no

14 personal knowledge.

15 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Change your question if you do not

16 like his answer.

17 MS McMURREY: Okay, I will. Thank you. Mr Draganic, you did

18 not see Mr Landzo in Celebici until the middle of June

19 when he came with a group of other guards, did you?

20 A. I don't know when it was that I saw him. I saw him maybe

21 in June, maybe in May. I am not sure.

22 Q. But you also stated that you didn't see him in Celebici

23 after the end of July, did you?

24 A. He was there in July. I think he left Celebici before

25 the arrival of the Red Cross on 12th August 1992.

Page 1680

1 I think so. I'm not sure.

2 Q. But you know for a fact that he was gone before the Red

3 Cross arrived; is that not correct?

4 A. I think it was, yes.

5 Q. I pass the witness, your Honour.

6 Cross-examination by Mr Greaves

7 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Yes, Mr Greaves.

8 MR GREAVES: Your Honour, could I just before I start

9 asking any questions say this. This is a witness who is

10 of considerable importance to the case of Mr Mucic, and

11 I have to say that I am actually extremely tired this

12 afternoon. I would be very grateful for your Honour's

13 indulgence if I could cross-examine this witness

14 tomorrow morning. As your Honours will know I am in some

15 difficulties in representation in this case. I am

16 effectively on my own at the moment. You will understand

17 why I am actually quite tired at the moment. I know

18 there is a need to keep going and keep the time up, but

19 I am asking your Honour if that would be acceptable to

20 you, please.

21 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Is Ms Residovic prepared to take over

22 the cross-examination now?

23 MS RESIDOVIC (in interpretation): Your Honours,

24 I cross-examined a witness for a very long time this

25 morning and in case the judges accept my colleague's

Page 1681

1 suggestions, I would like to continue in the agreed

2 order, but in case it is requested for me to start

3 counter examination -- cross-examination, I will start

4 that now, but I would prefer to keep to the agreed

5 order.

6 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Ms McHenry, what do you say to that?

7 MS McHENRY: Your Honour, this puts us in a difficult

8 position. Normally we would have -- in a normal

9 situation we would have absolutely no objection to that.

10 However, in this particular case because of the

11 information that we have received from the victim

12 witness unit which accords about the next witness, who

13 is in a vulnerable state, a victim of sexual assault,

14 and has been waiting around because things are behind

15 schedule, it is very much hoped that we can get her

16 testimony finished by the time we stop tomorrow, and we

17 support that and we would like there to be everything

18 done possible to make sure the next witness can be

19 finished by the end of the day tomorrow. Therefore, for

20 this particular case I would implore one of the defence

21 counsel, although I understand that they are tired, to

22 at least take advantage of this time and, in fact, we

23 have been suggesting whether or not we should try to

24 suggest that we go even a little over today to try to

25 get everything done so that the next witness can be

Page 1682

1 finished by the time we break for the significant period

2 of time tomorrow, if at all possible.

3 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: I am not too satisfied with some of

4 the reasons you have given. The question of your

5 application from the victims witness unit is such that

6 you have could have taken that witness today.

7 JUDGE JAN: Before this witness.

8 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Instead of this witness. You could

9 have taken that witness to make sure that by tomorrow

10 she will have concluded cross-examination -- or

11 examination of that witness. At this stage at least

12 I appreciate Mr Greaves' problem. He is alone in this

13 matter. If they want to keep their order, because you

14 never know what falls out from his own

15 cross-examination, for Ms Residovic to be able to close

16 the gap if she wants to. So it might be difficult to

17 accommodate your suggestion.

18 MS McHENRY: Your Honour, I agree. It is certainly entirely

19 up to the court. With respect to this particular

20 witness, it is also the case that -- we already have, in

21 fact, moved up the next witness. She was not supposed to

22 be the next witness but she already was moved up, and

23 because it was only recently that we learned how serious

24 the problems were and, in fact, it is not her

25 application. We did change our order around, but with

Page 1683

1 respect to this witness we both did not think we could

2 do it to be fair to this counsel, and since we had

3 received their permission to move her up one witness but

4 we had not asked whether or not we could start with her

5 today and, two, this witness also has his own reasons to

6 be back in his host country. For that reason we did not

7 think we could switch but it is entirely your Honour's

8 decision. I did not mean to imply something otherwise.

9 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Some of the accused persons have

10 greater difficulty at this stage. We will have it

11 adjourned until tomorrow morning.

12 MS RESIDOVIC (in interpretation): Your Honour --

13 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Let us hear Mrs Residovic.

14 MS RESIDOVIC (in interpretation): Your Honours, I would

15 like to thank you for the suggestions that you made. The

16 defence did accept an exception made by the prosecutor,

17 that is to change the order in which the witnesses are

18 going to testify, but the defence had a special effort

19 to make in order to prepare the cross-examination of

20 that witness. That is why, your Honours, we would not be

21 able to stay longer tonight after such a difficult day,

22 and to continue cross-examining this witness. I know

23 that at this Tribunal there are also some technical

24 reasons that have to be taken into account, but they can

25 never come before the right to a proper

Page 1684

1 cross-examination necessary for the defence of our

2 clients. That was why I would like to thank you, because

3 before what I have said I have heard your opinion and

4 I appreciate -- thank you very much for appreciating the

5 efforts that are to be made by the defence.

6 MR GREAVES: Your Honour's thoughtfulness is much

7 appreciated by me, if I may say so, please.

8 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Thank you very much. We will meet

9 again tomorrow morning at 10 o'clock.

10 (5.25 pm)

11 (Hearing adjourned until 10 o'clock tomorrow morning)

12 --ooOooŚ

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