1 Monday, 14th April 1997
2 (10.40 am)
3 MS. MILOJKA ANTIC (continued)
4 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Good morning, ladies and gentlemen.
5 It was not because of the holiday that we had an extra
6 one hour. I had some other things to do so, so I could
7 not come. So where are we now?
8 MR. OSTBERG: We are, I believe, your Honour, in
9 cross-examination with the witness Milojka examined. We
10 have examined her in chief and now leave her to
12 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Can we have the witness in? Please
13 swear the witness.
14 THE REGISTRAR: I am reminding you that the witness is
15 still under oath. Do you hear me? Do you hear me?
16 A. (in interpretation): Hardly, I am afraid. I cannot
17 hear very well.
18 THE REGISTRAR: I should like to remind you that you are
19 still under oath.
20 A. Yes.
21 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Have you agreed on the order of
23 MR. O'SULLIVAN: Yes, we have, your Honour. First will be
24 counsel for Mr. Delic; second, counsel for Mr. Mucic;
25 third, counsel for Mr. Landzo; and, fourth, counsel for
1 Mr. Delalic.
2 Cross-examined by MR. MORAN
3 MR. MORAN: May it please the court, your Honour?
4 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Yes, you can continue.
5 MR. MORAN: Good morning, ma'am.
6 A. Good morning.
7 Q. Good morning, my name is Tom Moran, I am the lawyer for
8 Hazim Delic. I am going to ask you some questions about
9 your testimony here earlier. If you do not understand
10 the questions or if you do not hear them -- I understand
11 you do not hear very well -- would you please stop me
12 and I will repeat the question and rephrase it, if
13 necessary, so you understand me. Can you do that for
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Also, ma'am , I would ask you just to answer the
17 question I ask. Some of the questions may just call for
18 a "yes" or "no" and a "yes" or "no" would be quite
19 sufficient. Can you do that for me also?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Thank you very much, ma'am. Let us go over a little bit
22 about some of the testimony you gave here -- I guess it
23 was two weeks ago almost. You were arrested on what
25 A. 15th June 1992.
1 Q. You have no idea why you were arrested; is that right?
2 A. I do not know. They just came to me. They asked some
3 radio transmitter or something, and that's why they
4 detained me. That's what they told me they were
5 detaining me for.
6 Q. Because of a radio transmitter?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. And the Commander of the troops that arrested you was
9 one of your neighbours, was he not?
10 A. Yes. I mean, he questioned me. This neighbour
11 questioned me. That was, I guess, the Commander.
12 Q. Okay. That was Mr. Cosic, Zaim Cosic -- Cosic?
13 A. No. Cosic took me to the camp and I was questioned,
14 interrogated by Subasic. He is also a neighbour of
15 mine. They are both my neighbours.
16 Q. Okay. That's fine. You did not have a weapon with
17 you. In fact, you did not even possess any weapons, do
18 you? Was that not your testimony last week?
19 A. No.
20 Q. That was not your testimony?
21 A. No.
22 Q. Ma'am, if the transcript, page 1769, at line 16, says:
23 "Question: did you have any weapon at the time of
24 your arrest?
25 Answer: No", would that be incorrect? Would the
1 court reporter have written that down wrong?
2 A. I think that that was entered in by mistake.
3 Q. So the court reporter was wrong?
4 A. I said that I did not possess any and that's how it was,
5 just as I said that I did not possess any weapons except
6 that they charged me with this radio transmitter.
7 Q. So, ma'am, your testimony was that you did not possess a
8 weapon at the time of your arrest; is that correct?
9 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: What is the witness's answer to that?
10 What is the answer to the question that you did not
11 possess any weapon at the time that you were arrested?
12 A. No, I did not possess any.
13 MR. MORAN: That was your testimony when you were here last
14 week also; is that correct?
15 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: I think she said so.
16 MR. MORAN: Ma'am, would it surprise you if Zaim Cosic were
17 to have said that when your house was searched they
18 found an M-48 rifle in the basement, serial number
20 A. That is not correct.
21 Q. Ma'am, I did not ask you if it was correct. I asked you
22 if it would surprise you if he were to say that?
23 MR. TURONE: I object. You cannot ask about surprise.
24 A. Yes. Yes.
25 MR. MORAN: Ma'am, I also understand that, as I recall your
1 testimony, you said that you were not really questioned
2 about any weapons or were not questioned by anyone,
3 brought before any judges, any kind of commission; is
4 that correct?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Ma'am, on 18th day of June 1992 did you and your brother
7 go with Emir -- I will spell the last name D-Z-A-J-I-C
8 Dzajic -- did you go with them to your village and did
9 you show him where another M-48 rifle was hidden,
10 specifically serial number 62893?
11 A. Not me.
12 Q. Not you?
13 A. Not me.
14 Q. Did you possess an M-48 rifle serial number 62893?
15 A. No.
16 Q. So if someone were to testify that you did, they would
17 either be mistaken or not telling the truth; is that
18 correct; is that correct, ma'am?
19 A. It is correct that I am speaking the truth here and that
20 is all I can say.
21 Q. So if someone were to testify that you were connected
22 with that M-48 rifle serial Number 62893 --
23 MR. TURONE: Objection. Asked and answered.
24 MR. MORAN: I do not believe it was answered.
25 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: She did. She said "that is correct".
1 MR. MORAN: Let us talk a bit about these alleged sexual
2 assaults; okay? Can we do that?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. First, there were only three; is that correct, as you
5 testified last week, only three?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. And I understand on the first one your testimony was
8 that Mr. Delic took off his shirt and had a vest-type
9 sleeveless undershirt on; is that correct?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. That was the only thing that he had on; is that correct?
12 A. He took off the shirt and he stayed in this vest and he
13 had the pants and the boots on, but he just dropped the
14 trousers down to the boots and he took off the shirt,
15 and the vest remained on. Down there it was all dropped
16 to the boots.
17 Q. Did you see any unusual scars or marks on Mr. Delic's
18 body, ma'am?
19 A. No. I could not see that at the time, because at the
20 time I was sort of lost. I didn't even dare look.
21 Q. So the room was well-lit, was it not, ma'am?
22 A. Yes. It was lit, but I was so afraid by his threats and
23 his mistreatment so that I didn't even dare to look.
24 Q. Ma'am, if someone told -- if someone made the statement
25 that Mr. Delic went into the room and --
1 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Actually from what are you confronting
2 this witness?
3 MR. MORAN: Her statement, your Honour.
4 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Her statement.
5 MR. MORAN: Ma'am, if someone said that Mr. Delic went into
6 the room and raped you like every two or three days,
7 once a day, the rapes took place over the first six or
8 seven weeks, that would be different from what you
9 testified to both two weeks ago and this morning, would
10 it not?
11 A. Yes. When I testified in Timisoira, I also was
12 re-experiencing the moments of 1992, when these things
13 were happening to me. Maybe I did say these things, not
14 knowing what was happening, because I was going through
15 the same shock that happened to me in 1992, and if
16 that's how it was there, that is not correct, but this
17 is more correct, what I said now, because I was affected
18 by that. At that time I could not carry it inside any
19 more, so I wanted to say so that the truth would be
20 known, and I said that all women knew this, and that no
21 woman in the world should go through this again, and in
22 Timisoira I decided to just let it all out, what I had
23 kept inside for so many years.
24 Q. So you decided to exaggerate; is that not correct?
25 A. Maybe at that time I stated it that way. Maybe I did
1 not even know that I did that, because I was
2 re-experiencing that shock and the trouble that I had in
4 Q. So, ma'am, what I am saying is, if nothing else, the
5 statement you gave on February 20th 1996 to the
6 investigator of the Office of the Prosecutor was not
7 correct in that regard, was it?
8 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Let us correct this. The correctness
9 of the act itself or the number of times she was raped.
10 MR. MORAN: She alleged in her statement to the Prosecutor
11 she was raped on multiple occasions. She has testified
12 here twice that it only occurred three times. I am just
13 asking her why she exaggerated and why she told the
14 untruth to the investigator for the Prosecutor.
15 JUDGE ODIO BENITO: Can I ask how many times are for you
16 multiple occasions?
17 MR. MORAN: When they are -- the statement said this
18 happened --
19 JUDGE ODIO BENITO: Talking about rapes, multiple
21 MR. MORAN: More than once.
22 JUDGE ODIO BENITO: Thank you.
23 MR. MORAN: By the way, ma'am, who did you talk to about
24 your testimony here today? Did you talk to the
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Did you talk to anybody else?
3 A. No.
4 Q. Did you talk to Grozdana Cecez, since she testified
6 A. No, we have not seen each other.
7 Q. Ma'am, back in your testimony two weeks ago you
8 testified that Grozdana Cecez offered you contraceptive
9 pills, and you did not need them because you had had a
10 hysterectomy several years before; is that not correct?
11 A. Yes. Also in Timisoira, when I gave the statement, as
12 I already said, I re-experienced these worst moments and,
13 probably in order not to state about the pills, because
14 those pills I really did not need, because I have a
15 condition. I had a surgery in 1984, so that there was
16 no need for me to take these pills that Grozdana was
17 offering me.
18 Q. Yes, but, in fact, in the statement you gave to the
19 Office of the Prosecutor on February 20th 1996 -- let me
20 back off just a second. Let me withdraw that; okay?
21 When you were in Celebici, you were not afraid of
22 becoming pregnant, were you?
23 A. At that time I wasn't thinking of that. I was only
24 afraid when I would survive. I knew that I had a
25 condition. I was afraid of everything. I thought of
1 everything but I resigned myself to all of that, so I
2 don't know what kind of response to give to this.
3 Q. Yes, ma'am. I thought we had an agreement you would
4 answer the question I asked. The question I asked was:
5 you were not afraid of becoming pregnant, were you?
6 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Actually this is a collateral
8 MR. MORAN: In her statement which I am set to confront her
9 with, she testified that she was afraid of becoming
10 pregnant and Grozdana Cecez gave her contraceptive
11 pills. That goes directly to the truth of what she
12 testified to here, that, one, she did not take them, and
13 two, did not need them, because she could not get
15 Ma'am, you were not afraid of becoming pregnant,
16 were you?
17 A. As far as my condition was, I didn't know exactly and
18 I was afraid of everything, but I was most afraid of
19 whether I would stay alive, whether I would survive or
21 Q. Yes, ma'am. Let me ask the question again and let us
22 see whether you can answer it this time. You were not
23 afraid of becoming pregnant, were you? That is a "yes
24 "or "no "-- all it requires is a "yes" or "no" answer?
25 A. Yes, I was afraid as well, of course, because I didn't
1 know to what degree I was incapacitated after the
3 Q. Ma'am, you mean your doctors did not tell you when you
4 had a hysterectomy and had your uterus removed -- you
5 did not think you could become pregnant?
6 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Do you not think that answer was
7 sufficient for your question?
8 MR. MORAN: Yes, your Honour. I will go on. You did tell
9 the investigators for the office of the prosecutors that
10 you were afraid of becoming pregnant and Grozdana Cecez
11 had some contraceptive pills and gave them to you. Did
12 you not tell them that?
13 MR. TURONE: Objection. Asked and answered.
14 MR. MORAN: I do not think I put it directly to her. I told
15 the court.
16 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Well, she said she was afraid
18 JUDGE JAN: She has made a statement in the past and
19 learned counsel is quite justified in asking her
20 questions about that.
21 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Yes, you have asked the question.
22 MR. MORAN: I am not sure that I got a direct answer on it.
23 I just want to put it to her. Did you tell an
24 investigator from the Office of the Prosecutor:
25 "I had been taking contraceptive pills because
1 I was afraid of becoming pregnant. Grozdana Cecez had
2 some and gave them to me."
3 Did you tell that to the investigators from the
4 office of the Prosecutor?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. And that was not true, was it?
7 A. Yes. When Grozdana Cecez was giving me these pills,
8 I said that I didn't need them, but I didn't know to
9 what degree I had been incapacitated by the surgery, so
10 that I was still afraid, but I was not taking them.
11 Q. By the way, your Honours, before I forget, I would ask
12 the prosecution to stipulate at this point that Miss
13 Antic is the Witness A that is named in counts 21-23 of
14 the indictment. Nobody has ever put that on the
16 MR. TURONE: We stipulate to that.
17 MR. MORAN: Okay. Thank you very much.
18 Your Honour, may I have just a few seconds?
19 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Yes, you can.
20 MR. MORAN: Ma'am, when you were being held in the reception
21 building at Celebici, in that room where you and
22 Grozdana and the other women were being held, you pretty
23 much had free access to the toilet facilities that were
24 in that building, did you not?
25 A. Yes, except we always went to the toilet when nobody was
1 in front of the door. When there was little traffic, we
2 could go to the toilet. If there was more traffic, we
3 shied away, so that somebody would see us, and we were
4 afraid that somebody would come to our home at night, to
5 the room where we were.
6 Q. My question was: you and the other women who were being
7 held in that room had free access to the toilet; if you
8 wanted to use the toilet facilities, you could use them;
9 is that not correct?
10 A. Yes, yes.
11 Q. Do you remember testifying two weeks ago that you were
12 not allowed to go to the toilet and you had to use a
13 plastic bowl in the room where you were held? That
14 would be page 1801 of the transcript, lines 1 through
16 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: I thought you said at night.
17 MR. MORAN: She said at night. The question I posed to her
18 was free access.
19 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: At all times or at night? The
20 question was limited her testimony to at night.
21 MR. MORAN: Your Honour, I would say the question I just
22 posed to her was she had access to it and was not
23 limited to night or day.
24 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: That conveys both day and night.
25 MR. MORAN: It surely does.
1 Ma'am, did you testify as I recounted out of the
3 A. Yes. We had free access. It was not forbidden to us,
4 but at night we didn't dare go out, because we were
5 afraid at any point that somebody would come in and this
6 plastic container we used at night as a night container,
7 this is where we went to relieve ourselves at night.
8 Q. So you were allowed to use the toilet; you just chose
9 not to; is that correct??
10 A. Not that we didn't want to. At night we didn't dare go
11 out, because there was always someone from the military
12 there. We were afraid that they would see us, and then
13 that they would come to the room where we were.
14 Q. Yes, ma'am. Now if you would answer my question, my
15 question was: you were allowed to use the toilet
16 facilities at night; you just chose not to; that is
18 MR. TURONE: Objection. Asked and answered.
19 MR. MORAN: No,, your Honour, I do not believe it was
21 JUDGE JAN: It was not answered, and do not interrupt like
23 MR. MORAN: Ma'am, do you want me to repeat the question?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Okay. So, ma'am, in fact, you were allowed to use the
1 toilet facilities at night, you just chose not to; is
2 that correct? Ma'am, that requires simply a "yes" or
3 "no" answer.
4 A. Yes, we were allowed to, but, as I said, we did not
5 dare, because of ourselves, so that somebody would not
6 come to our room.
7 Q. So, ma'am, when you testified here --
8 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Is this an answer to your question?
9 MR. MORAN: I think it is, your Honour, and I am just going
10 to ask her, so when she testified:
11 "We were not allowed to go to the toilet", that is
12 an incorrect statement of fact, is it not? ? Is that
13 not correct, ma'am?
14 A. For me it's correct. I don't know.
15 Q. Now, ma'am, when you made your statement to the Office
16 of the Prosecutor on February 20th, 1996, it was read to
17 you in the Serbian language, was it not?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. And you told everyone in writing that the statement was
20 true to the best of your knowledge and recollection, did
21 you not?
22 A. As I already said, maybe at that time I didn't know
23 exactly what I was saying, and I said that I was
24 reminded of everything that had happened to me, the
25 worst things, and maybe I did say something that I
1 didn't know that I was saying.
2 Q. So, ma'am, did the investigators from the Office of the
3 Prosecutor put words in your mouth, or did you just make
4 a statement essentially under oath that you didn't know
5 was true? Which was it?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Which was it, ma'am? Did the investigators from the
8 Office of the Prosecutor put words in your mouth or did
9 you make a statement under oath that was not true?
10 Which one was it?
11 MR. TURONE: Your Honour, it was not a statement under oath
13 MR. MORAN: Your Honour, let me rephrase it. Did you make a
14 written statement -- when you made this written
15 statement to the Prosecutor, that the statement was true
16 to the best of your knowledge and recollection and it
17 would be used in legal proceedings, did the
18 investigators for the Office of the Prosecutor put words
19 in your mouth, or did you just make those statements,
20 not knowing whether they were true or false.
21 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Please rephrase that question.
22 MR. MORAN: Okay, ma'am. Let us break it up into two
23 questions; can we do that, ma'am? When you gave this
24 statement to the investigators from the Office for the
25 Prosecutor on February 20th 1996, did that investigator
1 put words into your mouth to get you to make this kind
2 of statement? Do you know what I mean by "putting words
3 into your mouth"?
4 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Did the investigator tell you what to
6 A. No, no.
7 MR. MORAN: So you made a statement that --
8 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: The statement you made was your own;
9 yes? I think this is what you want to know.
10 MR. MORAN: Yes, your Honour. Your Honour, you are doing
11 fine. I would be happy to let you continue. You are
12 doing much better than I am, your Honour.
13 Well, ma'am, that was your statement? That is
14 what the Presiding Judge asked.
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. You made those statements either not knowing they were
17 false or not caring; is that not right?
18 A. Of course I cared, because, as I said, maybe I did say
19 something that I didn't know exactly what I was saying,
20 because I was being reminded of all those moments, the
21 worst moments which I lived through in 1992. Maybe
22 I did say some things, but I didn't know that I was
23 saying them.
24 Q. So the statement that you gave was -- you just did not
25 know what you were saying when you gave that statement;
1 is that correct?
2 A. Well, I say that I was in a state of shock, that I did
3 not even know what I was saying.
4 Q. So you did not know what you were saying when you made
5 this statement on February 20th, 1996; is that correct?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. But you do know what you are saying now, though?
8 A. When I started talking at the time, I felt less pain.
9 Until then I had never told anyone what had happened to
10 me. I had not uttered a word. Then I spoke and I was
11 in a state of shock, and perhaps it was not clear.
12 Later on when I told the whole story about the terrible
13 experience I had gone through, then probably my
14 statement was better.
15 Q. So, ma'am, when you told the investigator for the Office
16 of the Prosecutor, for instance, that you had been raped
17 every two or three days, once a day, for the first six
18 or seven weeks that you were in custody, that was just
19 something that came out of your mind and never happened;
20 is that right?
21 A. If I said that then, I said it without knowing, without
22 thinking properly how it would turn out, what would come
23 of it.
24 Q. So you did not think that this statement meant anything;
25 is that right? It was just words on paper? Ma'am, can
1 I have an answer to my question?
2 A. I keep repeating the same thing. I don't know what I
3 can answer -- what more I can say. The shock I went
4 through, I had never thought that I would reach a state
5 when I would be able to tell somebody I could trust.
6 I was in a state of shock at the time, and maybe
7 I wasn't fully aware of what I was saying.
8 Q. So, ma'am, you were looking for someone you could trust
9 that you could tell the truth --
10 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: I think counsel has done enough on
11 that question.
12 MR. MORAN: Okay.
13 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: It is amounting to harassment.
14 MR. MORAN: All right, your Honour. At this point -- your
15 Honour, may I have just a second to confer with
17 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Yes.
18 MR. MORAN: Ma'am, besides the Prosecutor, have you talked
19 to anybody about your testimony here today?
20 A. No.
21 Q. Did you review any documents in preparation for your
22 testimony here today?
23 A. No.
24 Q. Your Honour, at this time I will pass the witness.
25 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Thank you very much, Mr. Moran.
1 Cross-examination by MR. GREAVES
2 MR. GREAVES: Ms. Antic, I want to ask you, please, some
3 questions about the time of your arrest in June of
4 1992. When you gave evidence before the break, you told
5 us that three people were involved in that: Zaim Cosic,
6 Dzevad Alibasic, and you were later interrogated by a
7 man called Subasic. Do you remember giving us that
8 evidence last week?
9 A. When I was arrested on 15th June 1992 Zaim Cosic and
10 another two to me unknown people took me in and they
11 took me to Celebici, but before then Alibasic Dzevad and
12 Almir Nujic came to search my house, looking for the
13 radio transmitter. When they left, then Cosic came,
14 Zaim Cosic, and those two unknown people, who took me to
15 Celebici, to the camp.
16 Q. Ms. Antic, I suggest to you you know the name of another
17 person who was involved in your arrest in June 1992, a
18 man by the name of Milograd Mitrovic; is that not right?
19 A. His name was Milorad Jovanovic. He was my neighbour.
20 Dzevad Alibasic and Almir Nujic also charged him with
21 owning a radio transmitter, like me. They searched his
22 house and they took him with them, and then the three of
23 them came to my house and they were Dzevad, Almir and
24 with them was Milorad Jovanovic, who had been taken in.
25 Q. Ms. Antic, would you please answer my question now? It
1 is right, is it not, that one of the other men who was
2 involved in arresting you was a man called Milograd
3 Mitrovic, was it not? Can I help you with his
4 nickname? His nickname is Mito.
5 A. No. I am not aware of that.
6 Q. Do you know the name? Have you heard the name before?
7 A. No.
8 Q. Well, I suggest to you that he was one of the group, a
9 member of MUP, who came to arrest you?
10 A. At that time he was not there. Anyway I don't know that
12 Q. Well, let me try to suggest this to you, please: he is a
13 Serb gentleman and you are anxious not to tell us about
14 the presence of a Serb man, because you want to conceal
15 the activities of Serbs involved in arresting you and
16 taking you to Celebici; is that not right?
17 A. No, that is not correct. I did not see that man at
18 all. He could be seen later on in the camp, when we
19 were there, but that man was not there when I was
21 Q. So you do know of such a man?
22 A. I heard about him in the camp, but I don't know what
23 else I can say about him. When I was arrested, he was
24 not there, that man was not there.
25 Q. All right. Let us move on to the time when you came to
1 the camp. A group of men came to the camp, and
2 I suggest that amongst them were Mr. Mucic, Sefik Delalic
3 and Mr. Mucic's brother and a couple of others. Would
4 you be able to confirm that, please?
5 A. When I was arrested I was interrogated, and when they
6 took me out of that room, me and Ljubica Jovanovic, in
7 front of the door there were four men, who were wearing
8 camouflage uniforms. One of them was a familiar guard.
9 His name as Sejo Mustafic. The other three I did not
10 know at the time. I later learned from Sejo Mustafic
11 that they were Delalic, Delic and Mucic.
12 Q. You were not at that stage told what their first names
13 were; is that right?
14 A. No. At that time I did not know them. I just saw that
15 they were important people obviously when they were
16 asking me about all those things.
17 Q. When you were last giving evidence before the break you
18 told the Tribunal that you did not know what role these
19 men had in questioning you; that is right, is it not?
20 A. When I was questioned, I saw when Pavo Mucic asked me
21 where I came from and what my name was, he asked me
22 where was my husband. I said that I was not married.
23 Then he pointed his finger at Delic and said: "She's
24 just right for you." Then I saw by this that they must
25 be important, some kind of leaders in the camp.
1 Q. Ms. Antic, we are going to get on a lot quicker if you
2 would be so kind as to answer the question which is
3 asked of you, please. Your evidence before the break,
4 and I ask you to confirm it, was that you did not know
5 what role these men had in questioning you, did you?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Ms. Antic, when you gave your account of matters to the
8 Office of the Prosecution, you made no mention whatever,
9 did you, of a conversation about: "This is just the
10 right type for you." Do you accept that?
11 A. I think that is correct.
12 Q. And you have simply invented it, have you not?
13 A. No.
14 Q. That never happened, did it, and that is why it is not
15 in your statement to the Prosecution?
16 A. I think I stated it and it is correct.
17 Q. The reason that you did not mention it to the Office of
18 the Prosecution is because it is a lie, is it not?
19 A. It is not a lie.
20 JUDGE JAN: Do not use the word "lie".
21 A. I may have forgotten to mention it, but it is certainly
22 the truth.
23 MR. GREAVES: I am sorry, your Honour. I am hearing the
24 interpretation and cannot hear your Honour's
25 intervention. Please could you --
1 JUDGE JAN: Do not use the word "lie". Use a less --
2 milder word.
3 MR. GREAVES: I promise to be mild on most occasions but
4 there are some occasions when one must put one's case
5 fearlessly and clearly to a witness, and sometimes it
6 may require the word as strong as "lie". If I stray
7 into the area of doing it when it is not necessary, I
8 will accept your Honour's reproof. I believe it is
9 appropriate this time.
10 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: If she said it was not true, would it
11 not amount to the same thing?
12 MR. GREAVES: It does, but sometimes it sounds like a bit of
13 a prevarication. So that a witness knows exactly what
14 you are saying, sometimes it is necessary to put in
15 clear terms what is being said to her, so that she
16 understands and can deal with it properly.
17 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: She denied it, that it is not a lie.
18 MR. GREAVES: Then I shall move on.
19 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Yes. That is better.
20 MR. GREAVES: The person who took the lead role in
21 interrogating you that evening was the man Delalic,
22 Sefik Delalic, I suggest to you?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. He was, in fact, looking for Grozdana Cecez, was he not?
25 A. No.
1 Q. You were brought out one by one and Grozdana Cecez was
2 the last one brought out; would you accept that?
3 A. Grozdana was before me. I don't know exactly when she
4 was taken out, and on that occasion it was me and not
6 Q. Well, in whichever order it was, is it right that the
7 man Delalic spent quite a long time talking to Grozdana
9 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Why do you ask her that question?
10 A. I am not aware of that.
11 MR. GREAVES: Well, it is simply to see who was taking the
12 lead role in the conduct of the interrogation.
13 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: She will say they took it in turns,
14 because it is not a thing she will be able to answer.
15 MR. GREAVES: It was not long after this interrogation that
16 several of the women, four in all, were, in fact,
17 released; is that right?
7 JUDGE JAN: You are quite right. We held a secret session
8 while these four ladies were being named.
9 MR. GREAVES: It is my fault entirely.
10 JUDGE JAN: If you want to cross-examine on them, we can
11 put down the shutters.
12 MR. GREAVES: It was my fault entirely. I am grateful to my
13 learned friend for mentioning the error I have just
14 made. I do apologies.
15 Moving on, Ms. Antic, do you know who it was who,
16 in fact, released those ladies?
17 A. I don't know. I don't know who released them, but in
18 the morning a guard came to the door and said that all
19 three of these women could go home.
20 Q. I want to turn now, please, to the arrival of some women
21 from Zukici in July 1992, Ms. Antic. You recall that
22 occasion, I think?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. It was obvious that when they actually arrived at the
25 camp, they had already been beaten by somebody?
1 A. Yes, that is true.
2 Q. And upon their arrival at the camp gate there was a
3 considerable disturbance; is that right?
4 A. We just heard through the window women's voices crying
5 in pain. We didn't see anything at the time. We just
6 heard their cries and women's voices. A little later
7 they were brought into our room.
8 Q. Well, apart from women's voices, did you also hear a
9 number of men's voices raised and some shouting at that
11 A. Yes. We heard men's voices, but when I heard the
12 women's voices, I said to Grozdana: "We can hear some
13 more women. Maybe they will be bringing them in."
14 Q. Were you able, in fact, to hear what was going on during
15 the arrival of the men and the shouting by some men?
16 A. No. We didn't know what was going on, but we just heard
17 these cries, men's voices through the open window, but
18 we couldn't hear anything more.
19 Q. So if Mr. Mucic, for example, was amongst those whose
20 voices were -- one of the men's voices, you could not
21 dispute that, could you?
22 A. I don't know whether he was there or not. I didn't see
23 him and I don't know.
24 Q. Thank you. It was not very long after that that these
25 women were, in fact, released; is that right?
1 A. Yes. They spent the night with us, just one night, and
2 in the morning Pavo Mucic came to the door and told
3 these women that they could go home, and they were
4 released on that day.
5 Q. Thank you. I would like to turn now to the time of your
6 release, please, Ms. Antic. That was at the end of
7 August 1992; is that right?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Would your Honour just give me a moment, please?
10 The most that you saw of Mr. Mucic was in August
11 that very month, August of 1992; that is right, is it
13 A. Perhaps it was not in August, but I saw him from the
14 moment I arrived, 15th June 1992, until 31st August of
15 that same year.
16 Q. Yes. You may have seen him in June and July, but most
17 of your knowledge of him relates to August 1992; that is
18 right, is it not?
19 A. Yes, because he let us go home.
20 Q. Indeed, that was your principal meeting with Mr. Mucic,
21 the day of your release?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. And he was most helpful to you in extending the area
24 that you could travel in when he released you?
25 A. Yes. He had limited my movement, but as I could no
1 longer go back to my village which had been burned down
2 and the people expelled, I had to go to a village where
3 my sister was living by the name of Pogojiste. Then he
4 said my movements could be limited to Konjic,
5 Pogojiste. Then I asked him whether I could go to my
6 native village, where I had a garden and my sister had a
7 lot of refugees already, so I wasn't sure whether we
8 would have enough to eat, whether I could go to my
9 garden to pick some of the plants, and he allowed me to
10 do that, and he then gave me freedom of movement Konjic,
11 Pogojiste, Idbar, within those bounds.
12 Q. It comes to this, Ms. Antic. You pointed out some of
13 the difficulties you were going to be in when you were
14 restricted to your original area and he accommodated
15 your difficulties, did he not?
16 A. Well, yes.
17 Q. And that was all that he did in relation to you, and you
18 were released, were you not?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. No other arrangement of any kind was arrived at to
21 achieve that release; that is right, is it not?
22 A. We thought, or we had decided, that we had been
23 released -- we assumed we had been released after the
24 visit of the International Red Cross.
25 Q. Yes. The question is this, Ms. Antic: you made your
1 request to Mr. Mucic and there was no other arrangement
2 arrived at in order to achieve your release, was there?
3 A. No.
4 Q. I see my learned friend has leapt to his feet;
5 I anticipate he is about to tell us something?
6 MR. TURONE: Sorry for interrupting. I only have to request
7 that public record be redacted in due time. Thank you.
8 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: What is your reason for that?
9 MR. TURONE: For the small incident we had a while ago, the
10 redaction concerning the names which were pronounced.
11 JUDGE JAN: Quite right. Not the judicial record but the
12 record meant for the public.
13 MR. TURONE: Just for the public. A redaction problem, you
15 JUDGE JAN: That is a fair request.
16 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Yes. You can continue.
17 MR. GREAVES: I am sorry, your Honour. I was just having a
18 moment's conference with my legal assistant here. Would
19 your Honour just give me a moment, please? Thank you
20 very much, your Honours.
21 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: I think we will have a 30-minutes
22 break and then come back at 12.15 for continuation of
23 the cross-examination.
25 (Short break)
2 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Please invite the witness in.
3 (Witness returned to court)
4 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Kindly remind the witness she is still
5 on her oath.
6 A. Yes.
7 THE REGISTRAR: I should like to remind you that you are
8 still under oath.
9 A. Yes.
10 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Ms. Residovic can now cross-examine.
11 Cross-examined by MS. RESIDOVIC
12 MS. McMURREY: I do not believe the court asked for the
13 attorneys from Mr. Landzo, but we have no questions of
14 this witness.
15 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Actually we know the order of
16 cross-examining. The order has been defined, so we are
17 following it.
18 MS. McMURREY: The order was Mucic, Delic -- no, Delic,
19 Mucic, Landzo and Delalic. I just wanted to inform the
20 court we have no questions. Thank you.
21 MS. RESIDOVIC (in interpretation): Good morning, your
22 Honours. Thank you.
23 Good morning, Miss Antic. My name is Edina
24 Residovic and I am the defence counsel of Zejnil
1 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Can we have the interpretation? The
2 English interpretation is not coming through.
3 THE INTERPRETER: Repeat the question.
4 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Do it over again.
5 MS. RESIDOVIC (in interpretation): Thank you, your
6 Honours. Good morning, Miss Antic.
7 A. Good morning.
8 Q. My name is Edina Residovic and I am defence counsel for
9 Zejnil Delalic. Miss Antic, I would like to ask you
10 several questions about your village, the village of
11 Idbar, of which you spoke two weeks ago during your
12 testimony. I would also like to request of you, Miss
13 Antic, to answer my questions in such a way that we
14 assist the Trial Chamber to get to the truth as best
15 possible. Do you agree with me on that?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Two weeks ago you said that in your village there were
18 not many Serb families living?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. For the most part, you knew all the Serbian households
21 there; correct?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Ms. Antic, I have some data here and would I like to
24 request of you to try to confirm the questions that I
25 will be asking of you. You know the Jovanovic family
1 from the village of Idbar; correct?
2 A. There are several families by the name of Jovanovic,
4 Q. And you know Dragan Jovanovic. I think he was a
5 physician; correct?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Please, Miss Antic, is it correct that in late March of
8 1992 in a vehicle tam, which was covered with hay, some
9 weapons were brought to the village and these weapons
10 were taken by Mr. Dragan Jovanovic?
11 A. I am not aware of that.
12 Q. Miss Antic, is it correct that at that time the Serbs in
13 Idbar dug up some underground shelters in the village;
14 is that correct?
15 A. That is not correct.
16 Q. Ms. Antic, do you know that they did not dig them up, or
17 you do not know this fact?
18 A. No. I don't know about that. I am not aware that
19 anything was being dug up or dug in.
20 Q. Thank you, Ms. Antic. Please tell me: do you know Stevo
22 A. Yes, I know Stevo, but he lived in the city, in Konjic.
23 Q. Yes. He is your relative?
24 A. No. He's not. We just share the same last name. He
25 was born in Celebici. His family -- apparently his
1 grandfather is from Idbar. He was born in Celebici but
2 he lived in the city of Konjic.
3 Q. Ms. Antic, you can confirm surely, since you lived in
4 your village, even before the war and up until the point
5 when you were arrested, many facts of what was going on
6 at the time, and since you worked in Konjic maybe you
7 can help me to identify some other events relating to
8 the persons that you know. Are you prepared to do that?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Do you then know that Stevo Antic, who shares the same
11 last name with you, between January and April of 1992
12 was in reserve units of the JNA in Mostar?
13 A. I don't know that, because he lived in the city.
14 Q. Did you know that at the time the news was spread that
15 he had been killed near Mostar?
16 A. No, that's not correct. That is, I had not heard of
17 that, because he wasn't up there in the village where
18 I was. He was in the city and we didn't have the
19 information about it.
20 Q. Ms. Antic, did he have a family home in your village?
21 A. No. They lived in Celebici.
22 Q. Do you know that in his house in Celebici there was a
23 hand-held rocket launcher found with two cases of
25 A. No, I am not familiar with that.
1 Q. All right. I would like to go back to your village and
2 what you testified before this Chamber with regard to
3 that. In May 1992 you said that in your village there
4 was a search by the members of the MUP and the TO; is
5 that correct?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. You also said that at that time a group of Serbs from
8 the village were arrested; correct?
9 A. Correct.
10 Q. And that a fair amount of weapons were seized at that
11 time. It was all registered and all the registration
12 numbers were taken down?
13 A. Not on that day, because they were gathered from their
14 houses and were taken to Celebici.
15 Q. But, Ms. Antic, you know that during the search of their
16 houses that Stevo Jovanovic had an M-53 machine gun and
17 50 bullets and Marko Jovanovic had a Russian automatic
18 rifle and another M-48 semi-automatic rifle?
19 A. I am not familiar with that.
20 Q. Your village is a small one. You said that there were
21 very few Serb households and probably at that time you
22 did speak about the events that were going on in the
23 village; correct?
24 A. Personally I did not. I lived with my elderly mother.
25 I met with very few people. I worked in a company and
1 I hurried home and I didn't have time to talk to many
2 people and I had to spend time with my sickly mother.
3 Q. Ms. Antic, you worked in Konjic?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. So you went to work?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. In May as well?
8 A. No, not in May. On March 1st I was put on a waiting
9 list. We were not working any longer, so that I was at
10 home at that time.
11 Q. So, Ms. Antic, it is not true that you didn't know about
12 these facts because you went to work at that time?
13 A. I said I was at home. I wasn't in contact with anyone
14 because I am a woman and I was staying with my mother.
15 Q. So if other persons who have more interest in these
16 facts would confirm such things, you would have nothing
17 to add to them; correct?
18 A. I didn't hear the question. Yes. Thank you.
19 Q. Do you know Velimir Jovanovic?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Two weeks ago before this Chamber you stated that his
22 mother Ljubica was also taken to Celebici; correct?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Do you know, Ms. Antic, that Velimir Jovanovic expressed
25 his readiness to join the Territorial Defence and that
1 both he and his mother were immediately released from
3 A. No. Velimir was kept. He stayed -- I think he stayed
4 after I was released, but his mother was released home.
5 Q. Do you know that after his first questioning weapons
6 were found, hand grenades and ammunition, in his place?
7 A. No, I am not familiar with that.
8 Q. Thank you. I know you already stated that as a woman
9 you have less expertise in weaponry and I will not
10 continue with questions of this kind.
11 Ms. Antic, your younger brother's name is Milan;
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. He never possessed any weapons?
15 A. I don't know about that, and he also lived in Celebici.
16 He had his separate house. We did not live together, so
17 I don't know anything about that.
18 Q. But he was not taken to Celebici?
19 A. He was not imprisoned there, because before that he left
20 Celebici with his family.
21 Q. Thank you. You said that your older brother's name was
22 Cedo; correct?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. He was arrested with the first group of the Serbs from
25 the village; correct?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Please, Ms. Antic, given that two weeks ago and today as
3 well, when questioned by my learned colleagues, you
4 mentioned Zaim Cosic, can you tell us whether it is
5 correct that he was the Commander of the local TO, the
6 local Territorial Defence?
7 A. You mean in Idbar, in my village?
8 Q. Yes.
9 A. I don't know. I only know that he came to me and that
10 he arrested me, and had taken me to Celebici. I don't
11 know whether he was in charge or not.
12 Q. Can you please confirm that, together with Daut Nujic
13 and Islam Cosic, he conducted searches in your house in
14 May of 1992?
15 A. Not in my house but in the village they did search and
16 they were in the village.
17 Q. Thank you. Can you also tell me, Ms. Antic, whether it
18 is correct if I said that at that time your brother Cedo
19 turned over two complete military uniforms, several
20 protective masks?
21 A. I also am not familiar with that. We did not live
22 together, so I don't know. I am not very well aware of
24 Q. Do you know, Ms. Antic, that at that time at your
25 brother's -- in fact, nearby a military -- a rifle-type
1 M-48, 63028 registration number -- maybe you don't
2 recall the registration number, but you should remember
3 the rifle?
4 A. I don't recall. I don't recall because I don't know.
5 We did not live together and I am a woman, and I did not
6 think about these things. I was with my mother and so I
7 don't know if he had any or not.
8 Q. Ms. Antic, may I assist you to recall certain things: do
9 you remember the rifle that was buried near the drying
10 building, near the garden?
11 A. No, I don't.
12 Q. Do you recall saying that this was your rifle so that
13 you would help your brother?
14 A. No, no, I don't recall and I did not state that.
15 Q. Thank you. Tell me: is it true that your brother still
16 lives in Konjic today?
17 A. My brother does not live in Konjic.
18 Q. Thank you. Ms. Antic, I know that a long time has gone
19 by since 1992 and unfortunately you were arrested too on
20 15th June, as you stated; correct?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. I also understand that it is unpleasant to go back to
23 these events, and that you would like to forget them,
24 but I would still like to ask you to answer several more
25 questions that I have.
1 Do you recall, Ms. Antic, that three days after
2 your arrest, together with your brother, and escorted by
3 three military policemen of the HVO -- in fact, two HVO
4 and one MUP -- you went to your house on 18th June 1992?
5 A. Personally I did not.
6 Q. Are you sure that together with Delim, Buric Ivica,
7 Hazim Delic and your brother and Zaim Cosic you did not
8 go to your house?
9 A. No.
10 Q. In a white Iveco vehicle?
11 A. No, not me. As I was arrested on 15th June 1992 until
12 I was released on 31st August I did not leave Celebici.
13 I spent all the time in Celebici.
14 Q. You are sure that after being questioned by the
15 Commission -- that means your neighbour Mr. Subasic --
16 you did not go to show where were the weapons that they
17 were questioning you about?
18 A. No.
19 Q. Please, Miss Antic, do you know whether your brother
20 received and whether a semi-automatic rifle was found in
21 his home received from the SDS or more precisely from
22 Milan Avramovic?
23 A. No, I am not aware of that, because we were not living
24 together and I know nothing about that.
25 Q. Your mother and your brother did not speak to you about
2 A. No.
3 Q. You also say that it is not true that that rifle was
4 found covered with wooden poles that we use when we
5 plant beans?
6 A. No. I do not know anything about that. I really do not
7 know anything.
8 Q. You are trying to say that it is not true that you found
9 in the bushes next to the cherry tree in the field of
10 Milan Jovanovic a rifle M-48, Number 62893?
11 A. I did not.
12 Q. You personally did not pull it out of the bushes?
13 A. No.
14 Q. You also do not know the origin of that rifle?
15 A. No.
16 Q. Thank you, Miss Antic. If other people from your region
17 say something else, then you simply say that you are not
18 aware of it?
19 MR. TURONE: Objection, your Honour, to this kind of
20 question on what might have been said by other people.
21 MS. RESIDOVIC (in interpretation): My question was not what
22 other people might say but to see whether Miss Antic is
23 aware of those facts, so I can change the question or I
24 can pass on to the next question.
25 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: You can change the question. It
1 depends on what you want her to say.
2 MS. RESIDOVIC (in interpretation): Miss Antic, in relation
3 to the facts I have enquired about, you have no personal
4 knowledge; is that correct?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. If other documents say otherwise, you have no comment on
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. If other witnesses also have other things to say, you
10 have no comment either; is that correct?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Thank you. Miss Antic, this morning you mentioned
13 Milorad Mitrovic, a member of the MUP, in answer to a
14 question by my learned colleague.
15 A. I mentioned Milorad Jovanovic, not Mitrovic. I just
16 heard about Mitrovic in Celebici when I was brought
17 there and I didn't see him, but Milorad Jovanovic is a
18 neighbour whom the other neighbours searched and took
19 with them. That is how I know him.
20 Q. You said, Miss Antic, that Alibasic, Nujic and with them
21 was Jovanovic Milorad when they came to your home, but
22 when my learned colleague asked you further, then with
23 respect to Milorad, known as Mito, Mitrovic you said, as
24 the transcript says, that he was seen later in the camp?
25 A. Yes, yes, but he was not in my house. I didn't see him
1 in my village, in my house, but in the camp, yes.
2 Q. You know that Milorad Mitrovic was a member of the
3 Konjic MUP; that is correct?
4 A. I don't know what he was before, but I just heard of him
5 in Celebici. What he was before, I don't know.
6 Q. He is also a Serb?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. You know that Ivica Buric was among those carrying out
9 the search in the village?
10 A. I do not know. I know the name, because I knew him in
11 Celebici, but I don't know that he came to my village.
12 Q. So in Celebici you also saw Ivica Buric; is that
14 A. Yes, that is true, in Celebici.
15 Q. And Ivica Buric is a Croat; is that not so?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. So you can agree with me that in Celebici you could see
18 policemen representing the HVO and the MUP, both
19 Muslims, Serbs and Croats; is that correct?
20 A. It is correct with regard to Ivica and I also heard
21 about Mitrovic. I suppose he was a Serb.
22 Q. You also know Pera, known as Serbia?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Therefore, I understood that you answered in the
25 affirmative that in the Celebici camp one could see
1 Serbs, Croats and Muslims?
2 A. That is correct.
3 Q. Thank you. Miss Antic, in answer to the question of my
4 learned colleague, Mr. Greaves, you said that when you
5 were taken out and four persons at the gates asked you
6 something, they were Delic, Mucic, Sefik Delalic and
7 Sejo Mustafic and you only knew Sejo Mustafic?
8 A. Yes, because we worked in the same company.
9 Q. Miss Antic, as you said in your earlier statement and
10 also two weeks ago, you were, in fact, interrogated only
11 by the Commission with your neighbour, Mr. Subasic, so
12 these few questions addressed to you by the gentlemen
13 Sefik Delalic, Mucic, Delic, were just in passing. That
14 was not a real interrogation by a commission; is that
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Thank you. Thank you, Miss Antic?
18 MR. O'SULLIVAN: Excuse me, your Honour. I believe there is
19 a mistake in the transcript in the translation on page
20 49, line 5. It should not be Zejnil Delalic. It should
21 be Sefik Delalic. Page 49, line 5.
22 JUDGE JAN: They are two different names.
23 MS. RESIDOVIC (in interpretation): Yes. Yes. The testimony
24 confirmed this on a number of occasions. Thank you.
25 Just one, maybe two more questions. The name is
1 Sefik Delalic.
2 MR. O'SULLIVAN: I would ask that that be corrected.
3 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: It is not the same.
4 MR. O'SULLIVAN: It is not the same. I would ask the
5 transcript be corrected to reflect what was said,
7 MS. RESIDOVIC (in interpretation): May I continue? Has the
8 correction been made? Thank you. Miss Antic, today you
9 confirmed that Sejo Mustafic only subsequently, several
10 days later, he told you that it was a Delalic, Sefik
11 Delalic and Pavo Mucic; is that correct?
12 A. Yes, correct.
13 Q. Therefore, Miss Antic, you knew nothing about Mr. Mucic
14 at the moment you saw him that evening?
15 A. No, I didn't.
16 Q. Therefore, Miss Antic, it is not correct what you stated
17 fifteen days ago, that you learned in another way who
18 Zdravko Mucic was? What is correct is this is what Sejo
19 Mustafic told you several days later?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Thank you, Miss Antic. I have no more questions for.
22 MR. MORAN: Excuse me, your Honour. Before the witness is
23 passed over for re-cross-examination, there is a matter
24 I would like to bring up with the court. I have been
25 informed -- your Honour, if I could have just one second
1 I think we can get it on this cross.
2 MR. O'SULLIVAN: I believe this is another mistake in the
3 transcript with the same problem as I pointed out before
4 again on line --
5 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: How far back do we go with this
7 MR. O'SULLIVAN: The first one I have pointed out. The
8 second one is on line 12, page 50.
9 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: What we are concerned about here is
10 the answers by the witness. That is what we are
11 concerned with.
12 MR. O'SULLIVAN: The witness responded with one first name
13 and Delalic and the transcript has a different first
14 name, different from the one she gave. We have to go
15 back up to page 50.
16 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Actually your observation is that it
17 is not the same Delalic as we are dealing with in this
19 MR. O'SULLIVAN: She gave a different name. The answer she
20 gave is not reflected in this transcript.
21 JUDGE JAN: Your client is Zejnil Delalic.
22 MS. RESIDOVIC (in interpretation): Yes, your Honours. The
23 witness this morning in answer to a question by
24 Mr. Greaves answered that Sejo Mustafic told her that it
25 was Sefik Delalic. That was her answer to a number of
1 my questions. If there is any other name except Sefik,
2 then that is incorrect, because those are other names
3 and other persons.
4 A. I did not know the name at all. I just knew the
5 surname, and I did not know what his name was, what
6 Delalic's name was. I only knew the surname and that is
7 why I said Delalic. I did not know his first name.
8 JUDGE JAN: Just a minute. Is Delalic a common name?
9 A. Yes.
10 MS. RESIDOVIC (in interpretation): May I ask a number of
11 additional questions?
12 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Let us clear this. From the
13 observations made are you pursuing the issue that the
14 Delalic she was speaking about is not the same as the
15 Delalic in this indictment? That is what you are going
16 to say?
17 MS. RESIDOVIC (in interpretation): Your Honours, on page 28
18 of the transcript, row 14, my colleague addressed a
19 question to the witness:
20 "The person who played the main role in the
21 questioning was a man called Sefik Delalic?"
22 In line 17 the witness answered: "Yes". Sefik
23 Delalic is not a person who has been indicted, and in
24 answer to my questions the witness answered in the same
25 way. If there is an error in the transcript regarding
1 what the witness has said, I would ask that this
2 correction be made immediately.
3 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Actually this is what we are trying to
4 solve. If the person she knew and who was assisting her
5 is not the same person as the one who has been indicted
6 -- this is the suggestion -- if that is the case, that
7 can easily be brought out here. It is not a problem.
8 That can be corrected.
9 MR. O'SULLIVAN: Your Honour, if I may, the problem is that
10 her answers have been consistent. She is referring to
11 "Sefik" throughout but the transcript is including the
12 name "Zejnil" by mistake. She is saying one name and
13 the transcript has a different name, different first
15 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: As if the transcript is ignoring what
16 she is saying.
17 MR. O'SULLIVAN: Yes. The person taking the transcript is
18 in error.
19 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Not stating what the witness is
21 MR. O'SULLIVAN: That is correct, not stating what the
22 witness is saying.
23 MS. RESIDOVIC (in interpretation): May I, your Honours, ask
24 some more questions because of this error in the
25 transcript and not in the answers?
1 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: I think that is correct. Perhaps the
2 better thing is to correct the transcript if there is an
3 error, and we will be sure what we are talking about.
4 I think it will be corrected if there is an error.
5 MS. RESIDOVIC (in interpretation): Thank you. Miss Antic,
6 in answer to my question whether you were familiar with
7 the Jovanovic family, you answered that there are many
8 Jovanovic families; is that correct?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. You know that in your region there are many families
11 bearing the same surname; is that correct?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. You also know that the Delalic family is a very large
14 family; is that true?
15 A. I never heard of that surname before until I got there,
16 until several days later. Sejo Mustafic told me that it
17 was Delalic, but I did not know the first name, nor did
18 I ask, and I was not familiar with that name at all.
19 I just knew that his name was Delalic.
20 Q. Miss Antic, you say that you have lived your whole life
21 there and that you are familiar with the fact that
22 certain families, very large families, bear the same
23 surname. That is true, is it not?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Thank you. One further question, Miss Antic. Will you
1 tell me whether you have any contact with your
2 Association of Detainees in Belgrade?
3 A. Not in Belgrade. Only now we came through them as
4 witnesses. We have no other special contacts with them.
5 Q. Tell me please: this Association has certain legal
6 advisors; is that not true?
7 A. I was there only once in that Association and I do not
8 know much about them.
9 Q. And here you are in touch with them; is that true?
10 A. Here?
11 Q. You communicate with certain lawyers, legal advisors?
12 A. Well, no.
13 Q. Thank you, Miss Antic. I have no more questions.
14 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Actually your last question came into
15 three. I think the Trial Chamber will now rise and
16 come back for re-examination.
17 MR. TURONE: I would say immediately that we have no
18 re-examination, so the witness can be released.
19 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: You have no re-examination?
20 MR. TURONE: No more questions.
21 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: I think the witness -- it is all over
22 for you now, so you are discharged. Thank you very much
23 for your efforts. So the Trial Chamber will now rise
24 and reassemble at 2.30.
25 (1.00 pm)
1 (Luncheon Adjournment)
3 MR. GREAVES: I wonder whether, your Honour, I could just
4 mention one matter? It is a matter that I have
5 discussed with my learned friends for the defence and
6 for the prosecution. It arises out of the interchange
7 that took place between your Honours and members of the
8 Bar before lunch.
9 Inevitably in this case there are going to be
10 periods when we are addressing your Honours, as it were,
11 unexpectedly on matters of law, objections to
12 admissibility that arise during the course of things and
13 we are on our feet addressing your Honours, and your
14 Honours are replying to that which we say.
15 There was a point during the course of this
16 morning's interchange when the witness without any
17 control of any kind started to offer her views about the
18 matter. With the very greatest of respect, it is not
19 for the witness to engage in matters of law that arise
20 between your Honours and the Bar on both sides, and
21 I think both the prosecution and the defence would ask
22 your Honours to prevent witnesses from taking part in
23 such discussions, if at all possible. We understand it
24 is very difficult sometimes to stop them, but apart from
25 anything else, it is very distracting to have the
1 witness also joining in and the interpretation of their
2 views about the law and the objection and so on coming
3 through at the same time. I hope that is an application
4 that finds favour with your Honour.
5 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Thank you very much. I think
6 I understand that. You know, in most cases I have
7 always warned counsel on the nature of the questions
8 they ask and this calls for some of these things.
9 Sometimes one could have stopped them because they do
10 not have to go that far giving interpretations, but
11 I understand what you mean. If necessary, the counsel
12 will stop them before.
13 MR. GREAVES: Thank you very much, your Honour. I know that
14 all of us are grateful for that.
15 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Can we have the witness?
16 MR. TURONE: Your Honour, our next witness is Witness N, who
17 has been granted protection from the public and the
18 media, so the protective measures will have to be taken
19 in the court before introducing the witness.
20 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Ladies and gentlemen, I think we have
21 a strange counsel here. Do we know him? Ms. Residovic,
22 perhaps you might be of some help?
23 MS. RESIDOVIC (in interpretation): Thank you, your
24 Honours. At the beginning of today's session I did not
25 inform the Chamber, which I should have done, I guess,
1 that today in the defence counsel of Zejnil Delalic all
2 defence counsel are taking part. Besides me, Ms. Edina
3 Residovic, are Mr. Galijatovic and Mr. Ed O'Sullivan,
4 Professor of Criminal Law.
5 Mr. Galijatovic was present in the first week of
6 these proceedings and then I informed the Chamber that
7 he will not be present for a while. He was working in
8 Sarajevo and I think this probably completes the
9 information on this matter. Thank you very much.
10 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Thank you very much. It is ideal
11 usually when counsel comes in formally to introduce
12 him. So, Mr. Galijatovic, I welcome you to the team.
13 So call the witness.
14 Witness N (sworn)
15 Examined by MR. TURONE
16 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: You can sit down.
17 A. (in interpretation): Thank you.
18 MR. TURONE: May I proceed, your Honour?
19 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Yes, you can proceed.
20 MR. TURONE: Sir, am I correct that you have requested that
21 your name and identity be not released to the public and
22 the media?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Thank you. Now for the record I would ask the usher to
25 show you a piece of paper with your name on it. Would
1 you please, without stating your name, just tell us
2 whether you recognise your actual name on this leaf of
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Then may I ask the usher to hand over this piece of
6 paper to the Registry officer to be available for
7 anybody to be sure about the identity of the witness
8 inside this court room.
9 So, sir, you will thus be known as Mr. N; all
10 right? Can you please tell us: what is your ethnic
12 A. Serbian.
13 Q. Can tell us what kind of schools did you attend?
14 A. I finished as a machinist and then I also worked in the
15 restaurant industry and I completed training for that.
16 Q. Where did you live at the beginning of May 1992?
17 A. I lived in the village of Viniste in the Konjic
19 Q. Was Viniste a village with Serbian or Muslim or Croatian
21 A. Viniste was a hamlet where Croats and Serbs lived.
22 Q. Was the majority of Serbs or Croatian people?
23 A. There were 14 Serbian households and three Croat.
24 Q. Uh-huh. Can you say approximately how many kilometres
25 -- I mean, the distance between Viniste and Konjic
2 A. 5, 5 and a half kilometres.
3 Q. Mr. N, was there a time when Viniste was affected by any
4 armed conflict in May 1992?
5 A. There was no armed conflict, but on 19th May 1992 the
6 Croatian-Muslim forces moved towards Cerici and
7 Bjelovcina, passing through this area.
8 Q. Can you say in which day did that happen?
9 A. It was starting on 19th May until -- and it went on
10 until 23rd May while I was still there.
11 Q. Was there a time when you were arrested?
12 A. I was arrested on May 23rd, 1992.
13 Q. Would you please explain the circumstances of your
15 A. I was unarmed. I was at home. The members of the TO
16 arrived. That was the Muslim military. Myself and some
17 10, 12 people -- I don't know the exact number -- we
18 were taken to Konjic, where they brought us in front of
19 a motel. However, that day on the initiative of a
20 Croatian we were returned to the village of Viniste,
21 because down there we were told that we were not guilty
22 of anything, that we were not arrested for carrying
23 arms, so we were returned. Emir Alijic, who was the
24 Commander of the military in the adjoining village of
25 Homolje, also Sejo Didik, the driver, they returned us
1 there and we sat there, but Esad said that we should
2 move to Homolje, to this Muslim village, because there
3 were big manoeuvres in that area, military manoeuvres,
4 and for our safety we should do that. I think he
5 expressed a desire to protect us. However, on that same
6 day, when we were moved to the village of Homolje from
7 where I was, that same evening the police arrived and
8 they were composed of the HVO and the TO members. There
9 were eight of them, and myself, Branko and Jordan
10 Gotovac were taken to Celebici.
11 Q. Did you have any weapon at the time of your arrest?
12 A. No.
13 Q. Were you a member of any armed group?
14 A. No.
15 Q. Did you in any way take part in the defence of the
16 village of Viniste?
17 A. There was no defence there at all. For a while -- in
18 fact, before that, before they attacked, the surrounding
19 villages, Donje Selo, Cerici and Bjelovcina, we had
20 watches together with the Croatians, but we were also
21 linked with the Muslims from the Homolje village. So
22 there was nothing hidden. Everything was known. The
23 intentions were clear. The intention was to protect the
24 village and to protect the hamlet. That's all.
25 Q. I see. So you said you were brought to Celebici.
1 Approximately at what time did you arrive at Celebici?
2 A. I was brought to Celebici on 23rd May 1992. I cannot
3 recall the exact time, but it was already dark, so I
4 don't know what time it was.
5 Q. How many prisoners were together with you when you were
6 transported -- with which transportation means were you
7 transported to Celebici?
8 A. We were brought in a van. I don't know the make of it.
9 Q. How many prisoners were together with you in that van
10 which transported you to Celebici on May 23rd?
11 A. There were three of us.
12 Q. Can you say the names?
13 A. Branko Gotovac and his son Jordan.
14 Q. Before going ahead with your account, can you now tell
15 the court: how long was your stay in Celebici?
16 A. I stayed in Celebici between 23rd May until 31st August
17 1992, after which I was transferred to the sports hall
18 in Musala, in Konjic.
19 Q. Well, now, going back to your account, what happened to
20 you right after your arrival at Celebici on May 23rd?
21 A. On 23rd May, when I was brought to Celebici, after I got
22 out of this van that brought us there, we were taken in
23 front of what was the command building, after which they
24 were taking us into an office and taking down our
25 information, and then they took us to the Hangar Number
1 22, and there were some 30-40 people from Donje Selo,
2 Bjelovcina and Cerici there. Since it was the night,
3 only the next day I figured out that this was the number
4 of people that were there.
5 After that, on 24th May, in the morning I was
6 taken out of the hangar. Almir Nujic was a policeman.
7 At that time he was wearing a white belt, so I assumed
8 that he was a policeman. So he took me out and took me
9 to the administration building where there was a mess
10 hall. There were seven or eight people in uniform. At
11 that time they started asking me certain questions and
12 these questions had nothing to do with me, but Bato
13 Alikadic started beating me the first with a cable in
14 the area of the head. I fell down. He continued
15 beating me after I fell to the floor, and there was
16 Almir Nujic, who was also taking part in that. He was
17 kicking me in the rib cage area, the kidney area and
18 head area and then my jaw cracked at that point.
19 Q. Mr. N, please slow down in your account, because the
20 interpreters have to keep up. Thank you. Go ahead.
21 A. At that time two teeth were knocked out and several
22 others were cracked. That beating lasted some half an
23 hour, after which they threw me back into the Hangar
24 Number 22, where I could not get up for several days.
25 I could not open my mouth to take any food. Also there
1 was not enough food.
2 Q. Why could you not open your mouth?
3 A. Probably because my jaw was cracked and I could not open
4 my mouth.
5 Q. Okay. Mr. N, excuse me for a moment. Before going ahead
6 in your account, I would like you to clarify something
7 again about your very evening of your arrival at
9 You say you entered Building Number 22 and there
10 were other people there. Was any of these people inside
11 Building 22 familiar to you and can you mention any of
12 their names, when you arrived there in the evening of
13 May 23rd?
14 A. Yes. I recognised Danilo Gotovac, Mirko Babic. I knew
15 some people from Cerici, Mladen Golubovic, for
16 instance. I also found the late Zeljko Klimenta. So
17 there were ... I don't know exactly.
18 Q. Are these the people? Are you in a position to mention
19 other ones?
20 A. I could, but there were people from Donje Selo, Cedo
21 Cecez. I can't recollect all the names right now, but
22 I knew all these people.
23 Q. Okay. As far as you could observe, which were the
24 physical conditions of the prisoners inside Building 22
25 when you arrived there?
1 A. That night I could not notice anything. It was
2 night-time, and the next day I recognised these people.
3 For instance, Slobodan Babic, who was sort of beside
4 himself. He could not even speak. He was just uttering
5 screams. He was immobile. He could not get up. After
6 that, a day or two later, Radoslav Kuljanin was brought
7 in and Milivoje Kuljanin, also from Donje Selo.
8 Milivoje Kuljanin had cuts on his head and later I heard
9 -- he told me that he received 20 blows with beer
10 bottles on his head, on his forehead, and Kuljanin had
11 swollen areas around his eyes, and he could not see.
12 Q. Mr. N, did these injured people inside Building 22
13 receive any medical care?
14 A. Until that point, no.
15 Q. How were they treated in the following days inside
16 building 22?
17 JUDGE JAN: How long was he there in Building Number 22.
18 THE INTERPRETER: Your Honour, microphone, please.
19 JUDGE JAN: Ask him how long he was there in Building
20 Number 22 and then ask this question.
21 MR. TURONE: Okay. I can ask you that immediately. How
22 long did you stay in Building Number 22, Mr. N?
23 A. Some 13 days.
24 Q. Okay. Going back to these injured people, how was
25 Slobodan Babic treated in the following days inside
1 Number 22?
2 A. Slobodan Babic -- since I was not there when he was
3 brought in; I was brought in later -- but from the
4 people I heard later that on the way to Celebici
5 Slobodan Babic had been beaten, and I even heard that
6 they had pushed the rifle inside -- the barrel of the
7 rifle inside his mouth and injured him. So he was half
8 dead when I got there. One night they brought him out
9 of the hangar and he spent the night outside of the
10 Hangar Number 22 and the next day another prisoner and
11 myself came out to clean up where he had lain. Later
12 I heard from Dr. Relja Mrkajic that Slobodan Babic died
13 in the Third March School in Konjic.
14 MS. McMURREY: Excuse me for a moment. I am sorry to
15 interrupt your cross-examination. This has nothing to
16 do with this witness. I have a message from Mr. Landzo
17 who says he is feeling very sick. He needs to be
18 excused from the court room. Could we take a
19 fifteen-minute break? I do not know whether it is
20 appropriate but I need to inform the Trial Chamber that
21 he is feeling very ill.
22 JUDGE JAN: What do the rules say? Can we hold the trial
23 in his absence for fifteen minutes?
24 MS. McMURREY: I would have to look it up.
25 JUDGE JAN: Have a look at the rule, if you want to.
1 Please check up the rule. I do not know about the rule.
2 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: I think we will have a break for
3 fifteen minutes.
4 JUDGE JAN: Please check the rule.
5 MS. McMURREY: I will look at the rule. Thank you.
6 (3.15 pm)
7 (Short break)
8 (3.31 pm)
9 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Can we bring the witness in? Ms.
10 McMurrey, I hope we are all right now.
11 MS. McMURREY: Your Honour, I believe we have a small
12 problem that can be reconciled. He is not feeling very
13 well right now and Mr. Moran looked up the statute for
14 me. I don't believe that we can go forward in the trial
15 without him unless he waives that. This is a very
16 important witness. I believe we can go forward right
17 now if I could just have a word with Mr. Hocking just for
18 one second. I was trying to do that when you all
19 knocked to come in. If I could just have one second to
20 speak to Mr. Hocking. Thank you.
21 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Your interpretation is subject to some
22 other considerations too.
23 MS. McMURREY: Thank you.
24 MR. MORAN: Your Honour, while we are standing here, Judge
25 Jan asked the question on what do the rules and the
1 statutes say. I could not find a word in the rules.
2 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: There is nothing directly on this.
3 There is a rule 18 which gives conditions under which --
4 MR. MORAN: Article 21, section 4D of the statute.
5 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: We will look at our rules. 18 gives
6 circumstances but definitely, I agree, it does not
7 control this on control of proceedings. It does not
8 completely cover it.
9 I think you can carry on with the witness.
10 MR. TURONE: Thank you, your Honour. Now, Mr. N, maybe I was
11 not quite clear with my last question, so I will repeat
12 the question for you. I wanted to know, as far as you
13 can have seen, how was Slobodan Babic treated in the
14 following days inside Building 22, after your arrival
16 A. I saw when uniformed people came in, though he was half
17 dead, they continued hitting him. That is what I saw.
18 Several times they hit him.
19 Q. Then you said he died. Do you mean you could see his
20 dead body?
21 A. No. I thought he was dead when they took him out of the
22 hangar and he spent the night there, but Relja Mrkajic
23 told us later that officially he died in the elementary
24 school, Third March, in Konjic.
25 Q. I see. So since we are talking about the Building
1 Number 22, could you please describe briefly the
2 physical characteristics of this Building Number 22?
3 A. Building 22 was the shelter of the fire brigade. There
4 were some pumps inside and I don't know what. I don't
5 know exactly how long it was. There were 40 people --
6 when there were 40 people inside it was very crowded,
7 and you couldn't lie down full length on the concrete
8 where we were lying, because there were a lot of us, so
9 that we were rather cramped.
10 Q. How were the life conditions in Number 22 as far as
11 water, drinking water and food were concerned?
12 A. They took us out occasionally to the administrative
13 building, where there was a toilet, and that was when we
14 could drink water. Occasionally somebody managed to
15 bring in a bottle of water. Anyway, we had small
16 quantities of water.
17 Q. What about food?
18 A. Small quantities. Food was distributed or rather a loaf
19 of bread was cut into 18 pieces. So for three meals we
20 had a piece of bread for each meal. On several
21 occasions they threw us some liver paste, but these were
22 very small quantities for so many people.
23 JUDGE JAN: Liver paste?
24 MR. TURONE: Liver paste.
25 JUDGE JAN: Paste?
1 MR. TURONE: Liver paste.
2 What happened about toilet facilities when you
3 were not brought outside. Were there any toilet
4 facilities inside hangar 22?
5 A. There were none in 22. We were mostly taken out to the
6 administrative building to use the WC.
7 Q. How often were you taken out of that for toilet
9 A. Two or three times during the day.
10 Q. Okay. Now, going back to the account you were giving to
11 us about the next morning, you told us about the beating
12 you suffered the next morning. Could you tell us which
13 were the physical conditions of yours when this beating
14 was over in the next morning?
15 A. I was beaten up. I couldn't stand. The guard dragged
16 me to the doors of hangar 22, where I was taken over by
17 the prisoners, who put me in the corner, where my place
18 was. I couldn't stand up for several days and they
19 would carry me to the toilet.
20 Q. Could you eat in the following days?
21 A. No. Jordan Gotovac would give me some food with his
22 finger and Zeljko Klimenta, the late Zeljko Klimenta,
23 somehow managed to get some milk and he would pour a few
24 drops into my mouth. Anyway, I could not put anything
25 into my mouth myself.
1 Q. So you told us that you remained in Building Number 22
2 during about 13 days.
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. How were you treated in the following days after that?
5 Did you personally suffer any other physical
6 maltreatment after that during your stay in Building 22?
7 A. Yes. One day, I think it was 27th May, when they were
8 bringing in people from Bradina, Midhat Pirkic, who had
9 his own group, they took me out in front of 22 and one
10 of his soldiers hit me several times in the ribs and the
11 kidneys, and on that occasion I saw people leaning up
12 against the wall at the entrance to the camp, where the
13 building was, and I saw these men propped up against the
14 wall, being beaten up and forced to use Muslim religious
15 greetings and Croatian greetings too.
16 Q. You said these people came from Bradina. How do you
17 know that these people came from Bradina?
18 A. I know because the guards kept saying that they were
19 going to Bradina, that they would bring people from
20 Bradina. They even said they would release us when they
21 brought them in and that is how I knew. Several days
22 later we met those people in Hangar Number 6.
23 Q. Have you any knowledge of who were the people who
24 maltreated these people at the wall?
25 A. I do not know their names exactly.
1 Q. You told us that was on May 27. Can you tell us at what
2 time of the day did that happen?
3 A. I can't say exactly, because I was half conscious on
4 that day, but I saw this and I learned later that it was
5 27th May.
6 Q. For how long could you eyewitness that scene?
7 A. Between five and ten minutes.
8 Q. Was there any reason, as far as you know, why you were
9 called out and beaten in that occasion?
10 A. No.
11 Q. Now, Mr. N, did you stay in any other building inside the
12 detention camp after being for about 13 days in Building
14 A. Could you please repeat that?
15 Q. I mean, did you stay in any other building other than
16 Building 22 inside the camp after those 13 days you
17 spent in Number 22?
18 A. After those 13 days I was transferred to Hangar Number 6
19 and before that I was taken across to -- across from
20 Building Number 22 to the administrative building.
21 Q. For what reason were you brought to the administration
23 A. They took us there for questioning. They took us to
24 clean those premises, the toilets, some bedrooms.
25 Q. After that you were brought to Hangar 6; is that
2 MS. McMURREY: Your Honour, I object. He is leading the
4 MR. TURONE: This is exactly what he said.
5 JUDGE JAN: Yes, he said that.
6 MS. McMURREY: He said that. Okay. I am sorry.
7 JUDGE JAN: First he was taken to the administration block,
8 then he was made to clean the toilet and make up
9 bedrooms, then taken to Hangar Number 6. That is what
10 he said.
11 MS. McMURREY: Thank you.
12 MR. TURONE: Do you have any knowledge of the reason for
13 which you were transferred from 22 to Hangar 6?
14 A. No.
15 Q. Do you have any knowledge of what was Building 22 used
16 for after that?
17 A. Afterwards the people who were arrested were there: Dr.
18 Relja Mrkajic, Petko Grubac, and they brought in
19 prisoners there who were beaten up, wounded. When they
20 inflicted burns on them, then they were taken there for
21 some aid to be given to them.
22 Q. Can you now describe the physical characteristics of
23 Building Number 6?
24 A. I can. I think it was about 25 metres long and about 13
25 metres wide. This is a rough estimate, of course. We
1 didn't have any way to measure the building, but that is
2 my assessment. Around it was metal sheeting and below
3 the roof there was the steel structure carrying the
4 roof. That's all.
5 Q. How many doors did Hangar 6 have?
6 A. I know of one.
7 Q. Well, let us say how many doors normally used were
9 A. One.
10 Q. Did Hangar 6 have any window?
11 A. I think there were two small windows, but we never had
12 any cause to look through those windows, any possibility
13 to look through those windows.
14 Q. Why?
15 A. Simply, when we were brought there we were allowed only
16 to look in front of us and to stay in the place allotted
17 to us. I was turned with my back towards those windows
18 when I was brought into that building.
19 Q. Were those windows high or low, I mean the position on
20 the wall?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. I beg your pardon. I did not get your answer.
23 A. They were high up.
24 Q. Mr. N, how long did you stay inside this Hangar Number 6?
25 A. I stayed until 31st August.
1 Q. Did every prisoner have a given position inside Hangar
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Can you say how were the prisoners distributed inside
5 Number 6; I mean, how were their positions organised
6 inside the hangar?
7 A. I can.
8 Q. Please ...
9 A. There were two rows right next to the walls, two rows in
10 the middle and up at the top of the hangar; in other
11 words, we were lined up in a circle.
12 Q. Okay. Did you personally maintain the same position
13 during the whole period inside Hangar 6?
14 A. No. First, I sat in the middle row, right from the
15 entrance, and then I was moved towards the top of the
16 middle row to the left, towards the end of the hangar.
17 Q. Okay. May I now ask that the witness be provided with
18 Prosecution Exhibit number 1, page 7, which is the map
19 we already have in evidence, and can it be placed in the
20 ELMO, please, or maybe simply a photocopy of this so we
21 can have the witness exactly mark his two positions
22 inside the hangar? Can it be placed in the ELMO,
23 please? All right. Can you recognise this map as the
24 map of Hangar 6?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. Can you indicate -- please do not look at the video.
2 Look on your right-hand side in the very piece of paper
3 there. Can you indicate on that map the door of the
4 hangar on the map, just indicate with your finger, if
5 you wish?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Can you please indicate on this map your two different
8 positions inside Hangar Number 6?
9 A. (Indicating).
10 Q. With the permission of the court, may I have --
11 JUDGE JAN: You might have some difficulty, because there
12 were two rows in the middle, and he says he was sitting
13 to begin with in the middle row near the door, then in
14 the middle row towards the end.
15 MR. TURONE: Exactly. So I would like him to be provided
16 with a pen and mark more or less exactly the two
17 different positions in which -- may I ask -- yes, you
18 have a pen. Could you please observe carefully this map
19 and then mark with an X your first position. Is this
20 your first position?
21 A. Yes (indicating).
22 Q. Would you please write "1" beside this mark? Would you
23 now please mark with an X your second position on the
24 map and would you please write "2" beside this second
1 A. (Indicating).
2 Q. That is correct. So we have position number 1, which is
3 close to the door, and position number 2 on this other
4 point here. Thank you. Mr. N, was there any particular
5 reason for which you changed position inside Hangar 6
6 from position 1 to position 2?
7 A. No.
8 Q. Can you say: approximately when did you change position
9 inside the hangar? When did you move from position
10 number 1 to position number 2?
11 A. Roughly after a month.
12 Q. Let us say: in which position did you stay longer?
13 A. I don't know exactly.
14 JUDGE JAN: Just a minute. The answer is not coming.
15 THE INTERPRETER: Your Honour, microphone please.
16 JUDGE JAN: Which position he occupied from one stage to
17 the other.
18 MR. TURONE: The answer did not come in the transcript. He
19 did actually give an answer but I did not see it, so I
20 will repeat --
21 A. I don't know exactly. I don't know how much time
22 I spent in those positions.
23 Q. I am not asking you a very precise answer. I would like
24 to know whether you spent more time in position number 1
25 or more time in position number 2, or approximately the
1 time --
2 A. Roughly half/half.
3 Q. Okay. Thank you.
4 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: What is the relevance of this
5 comparison? Has it anything to do --
6 MR. TURONE: The relevance is to see what he eyewitnessed
7 exactly from these two positions in the following part
8 of his testimony.
9 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: It does not matter if he was in a
10 particular position. He must still witness if he can.
11 MR. TURONE: I will come now to this point. From your first
12 position could you see outside of the door when the door
13 was open?
14 A. Partly.
15 Q. Which part of the camp would be visible through the open
16 door with that first position?
17 A. I could see maybe three or four metres outside the
19 Q. What about your second position? From your second
20 position could you see outside of the door when the door
21 was open?
22 A. No. No. I could just see the door.
23 Q. This is the relevance for these questions, your Honour,
24 just to see what he might eyewitness from --
25 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: It is your case. When there is a
1 particular example or cause and you want to ask him a
2 question as to where he was sitting, it would be obvious
3 whether he could see from there or he cannot.
4 MR. TURONE: Of course. We found --
5 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: You do not need to separate into times
6 or places.
7 MR. TURONE: We found out what he could see outside from the
8 first position and he could not see anything outside
9 from the second position.
10 JUDGE JAN: Quite right.
11 MR. TURONE: This is the relevance of my questions, your
13 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: You do not introduce the second part.
14 If he was sitting behind, how can he see?
15 MR. TURONE: Your Honour, if there are no objections,
16 I would like to tender this photocopy of the map of
17 Hangar 6 for admission. It should be Prosecution
18 Exhibit Number 93, if I am not wrong.
19 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: It is already tendered.
20 JUDGE JAN: If it is necessary, it would be more convenient
21 if you draw the middle line also, showing the middle
22 rows also, so we know exactly. He has indicated the
23 places, but instead of having just the walls, if you
24 also have the middle rows, if they were indicated.
25 MR. TURONE: We can invite then the witness to add on the
1 map this --
2 JUDGE JAN: He can draw those lines and then fix his
3 position. This will be more convenient.
4 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: This is a document. You do not need
5 to tender it. Show it to him so he can indicate what
6 you are saying.
7 MR. TURONE: If you are in a position to indicate with your
8 pen the rows along which the prisoners were sitting?
9 A. (Indicating).
10 Q. All right. Thank you. So I tender this as Exhibit
11 Number 93, if there are no objections to admission?
12 MS. McMURREY: We have no objections, your Honour.
13 THE REGISTRAR: If I may be allowed, this is evidence
14 Number 92.
15 MR. TURONE: I am sorry. So I was wrong. Thank you. 92.
16 Sir, how were the conditions like in Number 6?
17 I mean, drinking water, for instance; let us start with
18 drinking water.
19 A. In Number 6 there was a shortage of water. In front of
20 the hangar there was a tube, but we couldn't drink water
21 when we wanted. For a time water was brought into the
22 hangar and distributed to us -- how can I explain that
23 -- in very small quantities. It was the summer. It
24 was hot. The walls were steel, so we lacked water. We
25 didn't have enough.
1 Q. What about food?
2 A. Again we had a piece of bread in the morning, at midday
3 and in the evening.
4 MS. McMURREY: Your Honour, I believe that has been asked
5 and answered. Was that asked and answered already about
6 the slice -- 18 slices on the bread.
7 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Even so I think it does not matter.
8 JUDGE JAN: Then he was talking about room Number 22. Now
9 he is talking about Hangar Number 6.
10 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Kindly answer the question.
11 JUDGE JAN: In Hangar Number 22 they were getting three
12 slices of bread, morning, afternoon, night. Now in
13 Hangar Number 6, he wants to find out there.
14 MS. McMURREY: Thank you.
15 MR. TURONE: Is this all your answer about food in Number 6,
16 Mr. N?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Could you describe the toilet facilities, if any, in the
19 period of time when you were in Hangar 6?
20 A. The toilet was behind the hangar. There were two holes
21 dug up where people went to relieve themselves during
22 the day and during the night a bucket would be put
23 inside near the door, where people would relieve
24 themselves during the night in this bucket.
25 Q. Were you allowed to go to these toilets whenever you
2 A. No. There was a time set for that, and people went
3 there in groups.
4 Q. Can you tell us something about the sleeping
5 facilities? How did you sleep in Hangar 6? Did you
6 have any blankets or anything?
7 A. No, we slept on concrete. Underneath those who had put
8 their jackets or something, and we would lie on that.
9 Again those who managed to find something would have a
10 piece of blanket for those who managed to find one.
11 Q. Approximately how many prisoners did you observe being
12 in Hangar 6 when you first arrived in the hangar?
13 A. I don't know the exact number, how many they were when
14 we arrived, but I think that the number was somewhere
15 around 280 all told in the hangar.
16 Q. Did this number have any variations during your stay
18 A. Yes. Yes, it did vary, because some people were killed
19 and then normally they would be carried out of the
21 Q. Well, were any of these prisoners being there familiar
22 to you? Can you mention any names?
23 A. The names of the people who were there or who were
25 Q. Let us say people who were there in Hangar Number 6 when
1 you arrived there?
2 A. There were people -- when we arrived there were people
3 from Bradina there. I knew some of them. Some of them
4 I did not. I could name some names.
5 Q. Yes, please. Tell us some names, the names you can
7 A. There were Nedzo Samoukovic; his father, Bosko; Vukasin
8 Mrkajic; Pero Mrkajic and his brother Bosko, Zoran
9 Djordjic and his father Milan; Brano Djordjic; Stevan
10 Kuljanin; Stevo Gligorevic; Jovo Kuljanin; Savo
11 Miljanic, Damjan Gligorevic.
12 Q. Okay. I am not asking you to say. Now did you
13 personally suffer any physical maltreatment during your
14 stay in Hangar 6?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Did that happen once or more than once?
17 A. More than once.
18 Q. Can you please describe in detail every single incident,
19 if possible in chronological order?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Please do that.
22 A. On 15th July 1992 Esad Landzo, called Zenga, took me out
23 of the hangar. He put a gas mask on my face and he took
24 me behind the adjoining hangar and he ordered me to sit
25 down. I sat down. I didn't know what was coming and --
1 Q. Very slowly, Mr. N, please.
2 A. At one point I saw a knife, which he held in his hand,
3 and this knife was heated. He first took my left hand
4 and started burning me and he made three burns on the
5 left hand. Then afterwards he preheated the knife again
6 and moved to the right hand. After that he heated the
7 knife again and he started burning me on my left leg, on
8 the bare skin, and after which he burnt me with a heated
9 knife on my thighs through the track suit which was
10 synthetic, and while the synthetic burned, the burn
11 widened. After that in front of this hangar he kicked
12 me, even though at that time because the pain of the
13 burns was predominant, I did not feel those blows as
14 much. Then he took a piece of chain and he hit me on my
15 neck with it. Then he ordered me to go back to the
16 hangar, but there were railroad tracks next to the fence
17 there, and some --
18 Q. Slow down please.
19 A. And some girls, some younger girls appeared there at
20 that point. So those young girls walked by and he
21 called me back to come towards those girls. Then he
22 ordered me to kneel. He kicked me a few times and
23 ordered me to graze the grass. After that he ordered me
24 to go back towards the hangar, but he started following
25 me and he took -- how shall I explain it -- he took a
1 fistful of clover and put it in my mouth. I ate some of
2 it. Some of it fell down. After that he ordered me to
3 drink water. Through this fear I could not feel the
4 pain any more and then I entered into the hangar and
5 people said: "Oh, you fared quite well, because you were
6 not screaming, but at this point the blisters were
7 already forming and I showed them what happened to me,
8 but I wasn't the only victim of this. Several other
9 people later in that way --
10 Q. Just a moment, Mr. N. We need to clarify some points
11 about this incident. You were talking at the beginning
12 of this account about a mask, but it was not quite clear
13 what happened with this mask. Can you explain better?
14 A. Yes, I can. I think that this mask was used so that
15 I could not scream, because the screw on the mask was
16 turned so when I would try to scream, but when I would
17 scream, I would start suffocating.
18 Q. Who put this mask on your face?
19 A. Esad Landzo.
20 Q. Could you see through the mask?
21 A. I could only see in front of me where I was walking and
22 also I was afraid at that time, and I was wondering what
23 was going to happen to me.
24 Q. Could you breathe normally through the mask?
25 A. No, because the screw was screwed on. I had a feeling
1 at that time while I had the mask on my face and when he
2 was burning me with the heated knife that my eyes were
3 popping out and there was no help. I could not breathe
4 air. I have simply started suffocating at that time.
5 Q. When was the mask taken off?
6 A. The mask was taken off when he stopped burning me with
7 the knife.
8 Q. When you say "he", who do you mean?
9 A. I think of Zenga, Esad Landzo.
10 Q. Who did take the mask off?
11 A. Esad Landzo.
12 Q. What about the incident of the clover? Did that happen
13 right after that?
14 A. After that, yes. First he ordered me to graze grass and
15 after that he forced me to eat clover.
16 Q. Did you receive any medical treatment after this
18 A. At that time no; only several days later, because those
19 burns already started to fester because in the hangar
20 there was also dust, and all this festered and it was
21 starting to smell, and I could not -- and after that
22 several days I went to the infirmary. I was taken
23 there, Number 22, where the doctors were, doctors Relja
24 Mrkajic and Petko Grubac. There they tried to offer me
25 some assistance, but they didn't have enough, so they
1 were only able to bandage, and it still hurt terribly.
2 Then the wounds would reopen. There was blood. They
3 were haemorrhaging.
4 Q. After this incident did anybody enquire on what had
5 happened to you?
6 A. There were enquiries, but that was more like a
7 provocation, because before that people would complain
8 about what happened to them, but they would even get
9 beaten for that, so we couldn't talk.
10 Q. Can you say more precisely what do you mean with
11 enquiries being provocations?
12 A. Because if somebody said something hurt them or they
13 were beaten -- nobody dared say they were beaten up to
15 Q. But did anybody actually ask -- did anybody enquire who?
16 A. Yes. I was asked by Hazim Delic on one occasion. He
17 asked me what happened to me, but I didn't dare tell
18 him, because I was afraid, because then he forced me to
19 tell him what happened to me. In fact, before that he
20 said: "Did Zenga play with you?"
21 Q. All right, Mr. N. Can you describe the following
22 incident concerning you in chronological order?
23 A. Yes. One evening -- in fact, that evening some 22
24 people were taken out in front of the hangar, where they
25 were beaten, and I was fifth or sixth. This was within
1 the period of about half an hour. I was beaten with a
2 wooden object and Esad Landzo, Zenga, took me out and
3 took me -- in fact, he took me behind Hangar Number 6,
4 so the right of the door, and hit me a few times until
5 I fell down to the ground, and on that occasion there
6 were some four or five persons. Some were holding me
7 and the others were beating me from my head to toe with
8 wooden objects that looked like a baseball bat. After
9 that I was thrown through the door into the hangar, and
10 I couldn't go any further. I fell down and Danilo
11 Gotovac approached me and took me to the place where
12 I was lying.
13 Q. Mr. N, just a moment. Excuse me. You said other persons
14 were there. Can you say who were the other persons
15 present or taking part in this incident??
16 A. The persons who were with Esad Landzo who beat me were
17 unknown to me in that moment. In fact, I couldn't see
18 them, because on that occasion I also had the mask over
19 my head, and it was covered with a white cloth, but when
20 I was brought out of the hangar I noticed Hazim Delic
21 next to the tin wall. He was probably watching it all
22 while they beat me, until I was put the mask over my
24 Q. Who placed the gas mask over your face in this second
1 A. Esad Landzo.
2 Q. Again, could you see through the mask?
3 A. No. There was a cloth over the mask, a white cloth.
4 Q. So how could you see that white cloth was put over the
6 A. I felt, because I first saw when he came -- when he held
7 the mask and the cloth in his hands, and then after he
8 put the mask on, then he put the cloth afterwards.
9 Q. Who took off the mask from your face?
10 A. Esad Landzo.
11 Q. After the mask was taken off from your face, again could
12 you observe whether other people were around you,
13 watching, or anyway present at this incident?
14 JUDGE JAN: He has already answered that. Delic was there.
15 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone please.
16 MR. TURONE: Before the mask; now I am saying after the mask
17 was taken off.
18 A. After my mask was taken off I could not see anything any
19 more, because I was beaten up, and Esad Landzo threw me
20 in there and I fell down at the very entrance and
21 I stayed there until Danilo Gotovac arrived and carried
22 me to the place where I lay.
23 Q. Do you have any knowledge concerning why you in
24 particular were selected for this kind of mistreatment?
25 A. No.
1 Q. You said a while ago that other people were taken out
2 from Hangar 6 and you were the sixth maybe or something
3 like that. Do you know anything about what happened to
4 the other people?
5 A. Most of them were beaten up a similar way that night
6 with wooden shovel handles or I do not know what else.
7 Q. After the second incident did you receive any medical
9 A. No. I lay a few days. I couldn't move. I urinated
10 uncontrollably and things like that.
11 Q. All right, Mr. N. Can you now describe the following
12 incident, if any, concerning you?
13 A. Yes. When the Red Cross visited, they came into the
14 hangar and we told them everything, what was done to us,
15 and we showed it. I showed our wounds, our bodily
16 wounds that we had. However, as soon as the Red Cross
17 left the hangar, they were not out of the gate, Hazim
18 Delic arrived with eight guards and he arranged them
19 four for every two rows and all prisoners got several
20 hits in the back and the kidney area, and then after
21 that in Hangar Number 6 Hazim Delic personally beat me
22 in front of everyone.
23 Q. Can you say approximately when this happened?
24 A. I can only say that this happened following the Red
25 Cross visit.
1 Q. Does this cover all the incidents you suffered
2 personally during the period you stayed in Number 6?
3 A. No. On one occasion when Esad Landzo took out Branko
4 Gotovac in front of the hangar he called in turn Danilo
5 and Jordan, his sons, and he beat them there. Then he
6 brought out me.
7 MS. McMURREY: I am going to object. He just said he was
8 taken outside the hangar and he was testifying what was
9 occurring outside the hangar. At that point he has no
10 personal knowledge.
11 MR. TURONE: Sorry. He is accounting something about his
12 own experience.
13 MS. McMURREY: He just said something before he was
14 outside. Once he is outside too then he can testify
15 about what he saw. I think he just testified about
16 something that happened or occurred outside the hangar
17 that he had no personal knowledge of.
18 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: I think it was within his personal
19 knowledge. Ask him anyway.
20 MS. McMURREY: Thank you.
21 MR. TURONE: My question was: please talk about this other
22 incident you suffered personally. So please go ahead.
23 A. I heard your question and I am answering it as it was.
24 Q. All right. Go ahead.
25 A. I found Branko Gotovac outside the hangar. His sons
1 Danilo and Jordan, whom Zenga had called out. He hit
2 him at the gate with a plank on the back and in front of
3 me he beat both Branko and Danilo. On that occasion he
4 took my right hand and a match and he stuck it under my
5 thumb nail. After that it festered and I had terrible
6 pains, and the nail dropped off, and a new nail can
7 still not grow normally. It comes up to a certain size
8 and then it grows thick.
9 Q. Okay. Can you say approximately when did this happen?
10 A. I don't know exactly the date. A lot of time has gone
11 by since, and all the things that happened to me I would
12 like to forget as soon as possible.
13 Q. Yes, Mr. N. Does this cover all the incidents you
14 personally suffered? Is there anything else you
15 suffered besides what you told us till now? I am
16 talking about the period you stayed in Hangar 6.
17 A. There were other incidents. They would take me out and
18 hit me a couple of times, but I didn't pay any attention
19 to that after all the things that I had gone through.
20 So I don't want to go into the minor details. I think
21 what I have said is sufficient regarding what
22 I experienced and what is still visible on my body.
23 Q. Okay. Now let us come to this. Can you describe now in
24 some detail the physical consequences which are still
25 visible or may be checked on your body after these
1 incidents you personally suffered?
2 A. Yes. I have scars from burns on my hands and on both
3 legs. On the left I have two burns and on the right
4 leg, one, which are visible. On my left hand I have two
5 scars which can also be seen well. Another has
6 recovered. On the right hand you can see at least three
7 scars. The others have healed.
8 Q. Did your jaw suffer any consequences visible today or
10 A. My jaw was cracked. It probably healed but at the time
11 I felt pain for a long time and I couldn't swallow.
12 Q. Did you loose any teeth?
13 MS. McMURREY: Your Honour, I am going to have to object to
14 his leading the witness.
15 JUDGE JAN: He has already said when he was first taken to
16 room Number 22 he was given a beating with cables and
17 with other objects. His jaw was broken. His teeth were
18 knocked out. His teeth were broken.
19 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: He could not open his mouth.
20 JUDGE JAN: Counsel is merely asking him: are there any
21 consequences still visible of that beating. I think it
22 is quite a relevant question. It is not a leading
23 question in that way.
24 MS. McMURREY: Okay.
25 A. Yes, you can see my broken teeth. I had broken ribs
2 MR. TURONE: How --
3 A. I can't list all the things that happened to me.
4 Virtually everything that could have been damaged was
6 Q. When did you report these broken ribs?
7 A. To you?
8 Q. I mean, is that referable to a specific incident among
9 the ones you described, the broken ribs?
10 A. That happened whenever I was heavily beaten. Each of
11 those heavy beatings had that consequence.
12 Q. All right. Your Honours, some days ago we filed a joint
13 request together with the defence for the medical
14 examination of this witness, the injuries of Mr. N which
15 may still be checked in his body, but in the meantime we
16 have some photos, some pictures taken of these visible
17 injuries, which we handed over already to the defence.
18 If there are no objections, we would like to tender
19 these photos as exhibits, but since Witness N is
20 protected, we should avoid to show, on the ELMO at
21 least, the photos where his face is visible.
22 MS. McMURREY: Your Honour, we just ask that we -- we have
23 received a copy of the photos, but we would also like to
24 examine his injuries personally to see if they compare
25 to the photos before they are admitted into evidence or
1 shown to the Chamber, if you do not mind.
2 JUDGE JAN: If you are going to have a medical examination,
3 then why have the photographs exhibited? You have the
4 medical report. You want to show these scars. When you
5 are going to have a joint request for a medical
6 examination, why bring the photographs in? The doctor
7 will tell us: "These scars are still available."
8 MR. TURONE: We agreed on that. I am just saying that we
9 have anyway in the meantime some photos and I might
10 tender them as exhibits if there are no objections and
11 if the Chamber agrees on that; otherwise we will be
12 happy to wait for the medical report.
13 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Counsel wants to inspect the injury
15 JUDGE JAN: You are not doctors.
16 MS. McMURREY: No, but I would like to see if they reflect
17 what he has claimed they reflect.
18 JUDGE JAN: When there is a medical report, that will show
20 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: If you want to enjoy his body have, a
21 look at it.
22 MS. McMURREY: Then we might not have any objections to the
23 admission of the photographs if they are the same as --
24 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: If it is a joint request made by both
25 of you, what are you arguing about?
1 MS. McMURREY: The medical examination was a joint request.
2 The photographs were not part of our request, no.
3 JUDGE JAN: They become unnecessary if you get the medical
5 MS. McMURREY: If he is going to offer the photographs, we
6 would like to compare them with the actual thing. If he
7 is not going to offer the photographs, then I will sit
9 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: It is up to you. If you want to get
10 them, go and see this.
11 MR. TURONE: Since we probably do not have now the result of
12 the medical examination yet, then maybe everybody in
13 this room might find interesting to watch the --
14 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: You waste too much time. Go and
15 inspect his legs or whatever.
16 MS. McMURREY: Thank you, your Honour.
17 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Satisfy yourself that he has those
19 MR. TURONE: Your Honour, there are the scars on thighs
20 which require a kind of undressing of the witness. This
21 is the reason why I prefer to take some photographs.
22 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: When he was giving the evidence,
23 I knew what it was coming up to. That is why I say if
24 you want to go and see him, she should go and do it.
25 JUDGE JAN: If the medical report does not support those
1 injuries, then those photographs become useless. When
2 the medical report shows all the scars, you do not need
3 the photographs.
4 MR. TURONE: Actually the prosecution does not need actually
5 the photographs. It was our care to have these scars
6 visible to the court in case defence lawyers and first
7 of all the Chamber should want to immediately.
8 Otherwise we have not any difficulty in waiting for the
9 medical report. I will withdraw the photographs your
11 JUDGE JAN: I am leaving it to you. If you have a medical
12 examination now, why have the photographs?
13 MR. TURONE: I am withdrawing the photographs.
14 MS. McMURREY: Then I am sparing him his thighs.
15 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: His evidence was quite plain. It was
16 his thighs.
17 MR. TURONE: The medical examination was done and the report
18 is going to come quite soon certainly. Right.
19 Now, anyway, your Honour, I would ask you to allow
20 me to proceed for a short while in private session,
21 since the next question will regard another protected
22 witness, and the events concerning this protected person
23 have been described already by two witnesses previously,
24 but without mentioning the person's name. So we now
25 think that this name should be made available to --
1 should be made available to the court for the record.
2 So this is why I am asking for a short private session
3 for the next question, if you do not mind.
4 JUDGE JAN: About the brothers?
5 MR. TURONE: Yes. I think the names of these people should
6 be made available to the court.
7 JUDGE JAN: They were made available to the court at one
8 stage by Ms. McMurrey but anyway they were redacted.
9 MR. TURONE: If we do that in private session, it will be
11 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Have you found that the engineers will
12 take care of it? Yes, you can continue.
13 MR. TURONE: May I proceed in private session now? Okay.
14 (In closed session)
23 (In open session)
24 Q. Mr. N, did you personally eyewitness any other
25 mistreatment of any other prisoner while you were in
1 Hangar 6?
2 A. Yes. I saw Mirko Babic, who came in with his leg
3 burning. I saw Vukasin Mrkajic, who also had fuse wound
4 round his whole body and lit. I saw Bendjo, who was
5 poured with gas and lit. This gas was lit and his
6 track suit was still burning when he came to the hangar.
7 I saw Nedjelko Draganic, who came in also with his leg
8 burning. I saw Momir Kuljanin who had burns on his
9 palm, the palm of his hand. I saw Mirko Djordjic, whose
10 tongue Esad Landzo had burnt with pincers and other
11 beatings that had occurred in front of all the
13 Q. Going into more details, could you say if you
14 eyewitnessed partly or totally who did all this?
15 A. I personally saw when Esad Landzo wound this fuse around
16 Mrkajic, lit it and forced him to run round the hangar.
17 I saw him when he poured petrol on the track suit of
18 Dusko Bendjo forcing him to run around.
19 Q. When you say "I saw him", whom did you see doing that?
20 A. Esad Landzo.
21 Q. Please go ahead.
22 A. I saw when he did the same to these brothers, that is
23 tied a fuse round their body and set light to it. To
24 Risto Vukin too this was done by Esad Landzo in the
25 presence of all the prisoners in the hangar. False
1 executions were planned by Esad Landzo. He took Milan
2 Djordjic outside the hangar. This one told us.
3 MS. McMURREY: I am going to object. He has no personal
4 knowledge about what happened outside the hangar. He is
5 talking about some false executions that he has no
6 personal knowledge of.
7 MR. TURONE: Can you please say exactly what you saw with
8 your eyes? You saw Landzo taking outside ... go ahead.
9 What did you see exactly with your eyes?
10 A. With my own eyes I saw Esad Landzo calling me personally
11 out in front of the door of the hangar. All the
12 prisoners saw this. He forced me no fall down on my
13 knees and on that occasion he wanted to shoot me in the
14 mouth but out of fear I couldn't open my mouth. Then
15 with his gun he pressed it against my neck. I was
16 terrified, but he took out the bullet and he -- where he
17 leaned the gun against me, there was just the slight
18 burn. I didn't feel much pain I was so terrified.
19 Q. Mr. N, do you know a person named Mirko Vujcic?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Did you see him in the camp?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Did you see anything concerning him?
24 A. I saw when Esad Landzo with a kind of pincers, heated
25 pincers, was burning his tongue. This was again in
1 front of all the prisoners who were in the hangar at the
3 Q. Can you say: approximately when did that happen?
4 A. No, I can't give the exact date, but I know that all
5 this happened after they tortured me and after he burnt
6 me with a heated knife.
7 Q. Do you know a person named Momir Kuljanin?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Did you see him in the camp?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Did you see anything particular concerning him?
12 A. Yes. I saw a blister on his hand from burning and he
13 said that Esad Landzo had burnt him with a heated knife
15 Q. Did you see that with your eyes?
16 JUDGE JAN: The blister, yes.
17 MR. TURONE: I mean, did you see the person who did that
18 with your eyes?
19 A. No, I saw the blister.
20 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Did you see when it happened?
21 A. No.
22 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: He did not see it. It was told.
23 A. No, I just saw him coming in the hangar and I saw the
24 burn, and he said to all of us that Esad Landzo had done
1 MR. TURONE: All right. Do you know anything because of
2 direct knowledge about the circumstances of the death of
3 any prisoner inside the camp?
4 A. Yes. The death of Scepo Gotovac, an old man of 70, who
5 was brought in. We had already been there for some time
6 in the hangar, and one day Hazim Delic brought in the
7 old man. I didn't know him personally until then.
8 Later the people from Bjelovcina who were imprisoned
9 with us said that his name was Scepo Gotovac. On that
10 occasion Hasim Delic beat him in front of us several
11 times. Then Esad Landzo came and took him out of the
12 hangar. After that he was thrown back in. We heard
13 cries for help and screams coming from Scepo and after a
14 little time he died in the hangar amongst us.
15 Q. Did you eyewitness anything else concerning people who
16 died in the camp?
17 A. Yes. Simo Jovanovic was taken out in the same way as
18 Scepo Gotovac outside the hangar, beaten up, brought
19 back and he died there amongst us. Zeljko Cecez --
20 Q. Wait a minute, Mr. N. What exactly did you see with your
21 eyes concerning the incident of Simo Jovanovic?
22 JUDGE JAN: He has already answered that he was taken out
23 of the hangar, brought back and then he died.
24 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone please.
25 MR. TURONE: I would like to know: did he see who took him
1 out of the hangar?
2 A. A guard took him out. I don't know exactly his name.
3 There were eyewitnesses who were close to the door.
4 I personally don't know. They said it was Esad Landzo
5 with a group of some people from the village of Idbar in
6 the case of the death of Simo Jovanovic.
7 I also forgot to say when Scepo Gotovac was thrown
8 back into the hangar he had on his forehead a badge
9 nailed in. I was not sure whether it was SDS or SDA
10 badge. Esad Landzo personally had nailed this badge to
11 his forehead.
12 Q. Did you eyewitness any other incident concerning people
13 who died in the camp?
14 A. Yes. Milorad Kuljanin was taken out of the hangar and
15 on that occasion Esad Macic, Makaron, with another
16 soldier -- I don't know his name -- he took Milorad
17 Kuljanin out and they started beating him.
18 That day was a Muslim religious holiday. On that
19 occasion ten of us prisoners were going to the toilet
20 behind the hangar, and when we passed by Milorad
21 Kuljanin those who were in front, the four or five of
22 them, they were forced to hit Milorad Kuljanin. Three
23 or four men went by and Esad Macic, Makaron, pointed a
24 gun at his forehead and fired two shots into his head
25 directly. I was perhaps a metre or metre and a half
1 away from the killed person, and I personally saw him
2 firing the two bullets. On that occasion the first --
3 the man closest to the killed person was Zeljko Cecez
4 and he was taken out that same evening and beaten for
5 a whole hour in front of the hangar. He was thrown back
6 in and a short while later that same evening he passed
7 away in the hangar.
8 Q. Did you eyewitness other incidents concerning people who
9 died in the camp?
10 A. Cedo Avramovic was found one morning dead at the end of
11 the hangar. I don't know how death occurred, but
12 I heard -- people were saying that he was afraid of the
13 beating and probably had a heart attack, so I don't
14 know. I am not sure.
15 Bosko Samoukovic, Esad Landzo had come into the
16 hangar and beaten Bosko Samoukovic with a plank, which
17 was about a metre long. After that he took him out of
18 the hangar and later Bosko Samoukovic was transferred to
19 Building 22, where they tried to give him first aid, Dr.
20 Relja and Petko, but later we learned that Bosko had
22 Gojko Miljanic died in his son's arms in the
23 hangar amongst us.
24 Q. Is this all you eyewitnessed concerning incidents
25 regarding people who died in the camp?
1 A. I cannot remember just now any others. Zeljko Klimenta,
2 called Keljo, was taken out one morning about a quarter
3 past five, and he was killed in front. Later, maybe
4 about half an hour later, I saw his corpse behind the
5 hangar and he was killed by somebody called Padalovic.
6 I don't know his first name.
7 Q. Did anything happen to Klimenta the day before?
8 A. Yes. The day before Emir Kovacic came into the hangar,
9 who was a friend of the late Keljo's, but Hazim Delic
10 saw him in the hangar and shooed him away, telling him
11 what he was doing there, and he said that he had brought
12 some cigarettes for Keljo. Then Kovacic went out and
13 came back and again he was found by Delic, and Delic
14 told him to kiss him, that he would not see the day, to
15 kiss him goodbye.
16 Q. What role did you observe Delic having in the Celebici
18 A. Delic was Deputy Commander of the camp commander -- I am
19 sorry. He was the Deputy Commander of the camp.
20 Q. How did you get to know Mr. Delic's name?
21 A. I found out Delic's name from people who worked with him
22 together before the war, who were imprisoned together
23 with me.
24 Q. Did you personally know Mr. Delic from before the war?
25 A. No. I knew him by sight.
1 Q. Did you know Esad Landzo from before the war?
2 A. No.
3 Q. Was there a time when Delic had some problem with his
5 A. In the beginning -- in fact when we were brought to
6 Number 22 Hazim Delic was a guard there for a while and
7 I saw him walking on crutches, but personally I don't
8 know what the reason for that was.
9 Q. Can you describe Mr. Delic? I mean, what did he look
11 A. He was tall. He had a large forehead. I don't think
12 that I have to describe much. I can just look over to
13 Mr. Delic.
14 Q. Can you describe Mr. Landzo?
15 A. Also there is not much need to describe him. I can just
16 see him.
17 Q. Do you see him?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Can you point him out then?
20 A. Yes. (Pointing).
21 Q. Counting the people who are sitting there, one, two,
22 three, four, five, six, seven -- I mean the sitting
23 people on the bottom -- which number is Mr. Landzo?
24 A. Two -- of the accused, I mean, excluding the policemen.
25 Q. I wanted the record to be clear that he pointed out the
1 second defendant, the second accused.
2 A. Looking from the left.
3 Q. Just for the record to be clear, did you point out in
4 this room both Mr. Landzo and Mr. Delic?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. So again, just for the record to be clear, can you
7 exactly say which one is Landzo and which one is Delic?
8 A. Mr. Landzo is sitting number 3 persons sitting starting
9 from the left and Mr. Delic is the first one from the far
10 end. Maybe Mr. Landzo can get up so that he can be seen
12 Q. All right. Just for the record to be complete, we have
13 also some ID done in the last few days through
14 photo-spreads. Do you remember some days ago to have
15 been shown a number of photos by an investigator in this
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Were you asked if you could recognise anybody in those
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Did you sign some pieces of paper containing your
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. So we start with this one. May I have, your Honour,
25 this short statement with photo-spread attachment marked
1 for identification as Number 93 and shown to the witness
2 for identification purposes, please?
3 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Who are those you want him to
5 MR. TURONE: This is just because we did that in the last
6 few days and defence lawyers received these
7 photo-spreads, so for the completeness of the record
8 I think --
9 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Who are those you want to identify?
10 He can do it here.
11 MR. TURONE: Yes, all right.
12 JUDGE JAN: Is the defence disputing that he does not know
13 the accused persons?
14 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: In fact, you did not ask the relevant
15 questions. Is this the same Landzo, the one you knew at
16 the camp? Is it the same person?
17 JUDGE JAN: Is the defence disputing he does not know those
18 two accused persons?
19 MR. MORAN: No, your Honour. The only problem we have: in
20 one of the photo-spreads you could not identify
21 anybody. In court he identified my client. My client
22 was on television. We are not disputing.
23 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: These are the ones he knew.
24 JUDGE JAN: Ms. McMurrey, are you disputing the witness does
25 not know Landzo?
1 MS. McMURREY: No, your Honour, he identified him in the
2 photo-spread. We are not objecting to that.
3 JUDGE JAN: The defence is not disputing.
4 MS. McMURREY: We are not disputing it.
5 MR. TURONE: So we withdraw the exhibition of this
7 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: You have gone about it in a roundabout
8 way. In the beginning you could have linked it with who
9 he knew at the camp. That's all you want to show, if
10 this is the same Landzo he knew there. That would have
11 satisfied it. This is the same Delic he knew.
12 JUDGE JAN: The accused persons have been appearing on the
13 television. The identifications held a few days ago
14 will not help you if the defence is not disputing. If
15 the defence is not disputing, how would that help?
16 MR. TURONE: We withdraw these exhibits, your Honours.
17 JUDGE JAN: They are not disputing it.
18 MS. RESIDOVIC (in interpretation): Your Honours, I would
19 like to request, if possible, that Judge Jan, if
20 possible, could cooperate by turning on the microphone,
21 because we rely solely on the interpretation and we are
22 very curious to know everything that the Trial Chamber
23 is asking. Thank you very much.
24 JUDGE JAN: I apologise.
25 MR. TURONE: May I proceed, your Honour?
1 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Yes, if you have any further
3 MR. TURONE: Yes.
4 Mr. N, do you have any knowledge of who was the
5 Commander of the Celebici camp?
6 A. Yes. Zdravko Mucic called Pavo.
7 Q. How do you know that?
8 A. I heard that first from the guards and later from Hazim
9 Delic, the deputy, because on several occasions when
10 Pavo was to come to the hangar, Hazim Delic would tell
11 us that the Commander was arriving, and then later
12 I also saw when he released some people from the prison.
13 Q. How many times approximately did you see him in the
15 A. I don't know exactly. Two or three times at the most
16 that I saw him personally.
17 Q. Do you remember approximately when you saw him for the
18 first time?
19 A. I don't know the exact date. I cannot recall.
20 Q. Did he wear a uniform?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Do you remember: where did you see him inside the camp?
23 A. On two occasions I saw him in Hangar Number 6 and the
24 third time I saw him in his office when he called me in
25 for questioning. He wanted to take a statement from
1 me. I know that when I was giving that statement that
2 was some time in August.
3 Q. Did you have any other chance to talk to him while you
4 were in Celebici besides this statement you gave him?
5 A. Only on one occasion, when he was in the Hangar Number
6 6, when he was pointing some people out that he was
7 going to either release or take to the Musala sports
8 hall. That's the only time.
9 Q. Do you have any knowledge of who was Mr. Mucic's
11 A. Personally I do not know, but I heard that Zejnil
12 Delalic, whom I only saw once, in Hangar Number 6.
13 MR. O'SULLIVAN: Objection, your Honour. He has just said he
14 had no personal knowledge.
15 MR. TURONE: How do you know that Zejnil Delalic was the
16 superior of Mr. Mucic.
17 MR. O'SULLIVAN: Objection, your Honour. He just said he had
18 no personal knowledge.
19 MR. TURONE: He said also he saw him inside the camp. Let
20 me ask you: when did you see Zejnil Delalic inside the
22 A. On one occasion Hazim Delic came and said -- and the
23 guards they all said that Zejnil Delalic was coming. On
24 that occasion that was -- there were about four or five
25 armed people surrounding Zejnil Delalic, and on that
1 occasion Hazim Delic was there and I don't know if it
2 was incidentally or -- he fired a bullet that hit the
3 metal railing and it ricocheted and it hit Davor
4 Kuljanin, called Sis, and Davor was taken out after that
5 and he was given some medical help.
6 Q. Can you say approximately when did that happen?
7 A. I don't know the exact date.
8 Q. Can you say from which position inside the hangar could
9 you eyewitness all this? The first one or the second
11 A. The second position.
12 Q. You say that Zejnil Delalic and Hazim Delic were there
13 together with other people. Do you know the name of any
14 other people --
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. -- being present on that occasion?
17 A. I do not know.
18 Q. You said you were interrogated by somebody inside the
19 Celebici detention camp. How many times did that
21 A. Twice. The first time I was questioned by Mladen Zovko,
22 called Kuhar, and the second time Pavo Mucic.
23 Q. Where in the camp did these interrogations take place?
24 A. In the administration building.
25 Q. You mean in the same room in the administration building
1 both times?
2 A. I am not sure of whether that was the same room, but one
3 questioning was on May 24th and the other one was some
4 time in August.
5 Q. Yes. Did you have any occasion to see which part of the
6 camp was visible from the window of the room where you
7 were interrogated?
8 A. You could only see Hangar Number 22, what I could see at
9 that time.
10 Q. Were you accused of anything specific in those
12 A. Not at that time.
13 Q. Were the two people who interrogated you, the first and
14 second time, in uniform?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Did you sign any piece of paper after either one of
17 these interrogations or both?
18 A. I don't recall that I did.
19 Q. Were they long interrogations?
20 A. The first one was; the other one was not. The first one
21 lasted longer than the second one.
22 Q. What did they ask you?
23 A. The first time or ...?
24 Q. Well, both. The first time and then the second time?
25 A. Mostly they questioned whether I had arms or whether
1 I was arrested with arms, where I was and then where
2 I was from, things like that.
3 MR. GREAVES: I am sorry to break into my learned friend's
4 cross-examination. I think it is important we have a
5 clear answer which interrogation produced what questions
6 and what answers; otherwise it is very confusing to ask
7 what would be called in England a "rolled-up" question,
8 in other words about two different interrogations, so we
9 know clearly what was said on each occasion.
10 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Actually I did understand it to be
11 so. In fact, it is more of a leading question.
12 MR. GREAVES: The question was this:
13 "Well, both. The first time and the second time."
14 In order for clarity to obtain, he must be asked
15 about the first time and then about the second one.
16 MR. TURONE: I would like the witness to describe the first
17 interrogation and then the second interrogation. What
18 did they ask you in the first interrogation, first of
20 A. The first time I was already beaten up and when I was
21 giving this statement I only remember that Mladen Zovko,
22 called Kuhar, was there and he questioned me and
23 I remember the questions: whether I had a rifle; whether
24 I had been arrested with a rifle; where I was; whether
25 there was resistance in that area. Those are the only
1 questions I remember from the first questioning.
2 The second questioning was also reduced to where
3 I was from; whether I had a rifle; whether I shot. That
4 is all I can recall.
5 Q. All right. Thank you. Mr. N, did anybody take your
6 valuables on the occasion of your arrest or during your
7 detention at Celebici?
8 A. Yes. During my stay in Number 22 there was an evening
9 -- I don't know when -- all prisoners who were there
10 who had money, and I had some money, that money was
11 taken away and then also gold watches were taken away.
12 I only know that two people in uniforms showed up. It
13 was dark. They had a helmet and each prisoner had to
14 turn in everything they possessed.
15 Q. When did you leave Celebici camp finally?
16 A. 31st August 1992 I was transferred to the sports hall in
18 Q. Who was the Commander of the Musala camp, the sports
20 A. As far as I know, the sports hall was also under the
21 command of Pavo Mucic, and his deputy, Hazim Delic, but
22 Commander of the guard was Ismet Hebibovic, called
24 Q. Did you actually have occasion to see either Mucic or
25 Delic or Landzo in the sports hall?
1 A. Yes. I saw Mucic and Delic. I saw Delic more than
2 Mucic but I saw Mucic when releasing some people from
3 the sports hall and on that occasion, one day when
4 people were being released, Hazim Delic personally beat
5 me up in the sports hall. Later, in fact, maybe five or
6 ten minutes before that, Pavo Mucic had left the sports
7 hall and Zenga, that is Esad Landzo, occasionally
8 dropped by the sports hall while I was there until 23rd
9 December, but later was a guard again in the sports
11 Q. So when you were -- when were you released from any kind
12 of detention?
13 A. I was released on December 23rd from the sports hall at
14 the initiative of the International Red Cross. I was
15 released into home detention, when I was exchanged at
16 the Butmir Airport in Sarajevo.
17 Q. We have at this point, if your Honours remember, we
18 filed an intention to show a video excerpt to Witness N
19 if there are no objections from the defence lawyers, if
20 the Chamber deems that appropriate. The excerpt video
21 should be an excerpt deriving from seized material,
22 seized videotapes which the prosecution is going to
23 tender as exhibits in future through another witness who
24 is an officer of the Austrian Police, who actually
25 seized the videotapes.
1 We pointed out in our request that there might be
2 two possibilities for us to proceed to that. The first
3 possibility is to call back the witness from where he
4 lives after that the actual seized videotapes will be --
5 if they will be entered into evidence, and the other
6 possibility is to have this excerpt shown to the witness
7 today or tomorrow. Of course, then later if the tapes
8 are admitted, the evidence may be considered. If the
9 tapes are not admitted, then the court may strike or
10 disregard the evidence. So if your Honours ...
11 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: I think you are still hazy in your
12 mind what you want to do and it is 5.30 now. You can
13 think about it. We will know what to do tomorrow
15 JUDGE JAN: Just a minute. What has this witness to do
16 with those excerpts?
17 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: We will close until tomorrow morning.
18 MR. TURONE: The witness is in a position to recognise a
19 number of people in those excerpt videos.
20 (5.30 pm)
21 (Hearing adjourned until 10 o'clock tomorrow morning)