Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 2488

1 Wednesday, 7th May 1997

2 (2.30 pm)

3 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Good afternoon, ladies and

4 gentlemen. We continue where we stopped yesterday and

5 that is with the examination of the witness. So can

6 you invite the witness in?

7 MR. MLADEN KULJANIN (continued)

8 Examined by MR. TURONE

9 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honours, there is a matter that I would

10 like to take up very briefly while we are waiting for

11 the witness, if it would be okay with you.

12 The various defence counsel have either filed or

13 will very soon file some of the motions having been

14 filed today that deal with matters that this court

15 probably needs to resolve prior to the testimony of

16 witnesses 15 and 16, Sabine Manke and Bart d'Hooge, who

17 are listed as the next witnesses to be called by the

18 prosecution.

19 We suspect that the reason those witnesses are

20 being called is for the prosecution to attempt to

21 introduce the statements made by the various

22 defendants. The various defendants have challenges of

23 one form or another to those statements that are in the

24 form of written motions, some recently filed, some filed

25 some time ago. So we just wanted to bring to the

Page 2489

1 court's attention that we would like to have a hearing

2 on those matters before these witnesses are presented to

3 the court.

4 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Thank you very much. Will you kindly

5 invite the witness?

6 (Witness enters court).

7 MR. TURONE: May I proceed, your Honour?

8 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Yes, you can.

9 MR. TURONE: Good afternoon, Mr. Kuljanin.

10 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Will you remind him he is still on his

11 oath.

12 THE REGISTRAR: I am reminding you, sir, that you are still

13 testifying under oath?

14 A. Yes.

15 MR. TURONE: All right. Yes. We were talking about Hangar

16 6 inside the Celebici camp, and my further question is:

17 approximately how many prisoners did you observe being

18 in Hangar 6 when you first arrived in the hangar?

19 A. (In interpretation): When I first arrived there was

20 nobody there. The hangar was empty.

21 Q. Could you repeat how many people were you when you the

22 first time get inside Hangar 6?

23 A. Around 60 or 70, thereabouts.

24 Q. Did this number have any variations during your stay

25 there?

Page 2490

1 A. Yes. The next day the next group was brought in from

2 Hangar Number 9.

3 Q. Approximately how many people could then be there inside

4 Hangar 6 after these people coming?

5 A. There were about 100 people.

6 Q. Did this number have any further variation during your

7 stay in the hangar?

8 A. Yes. It varied daily as new groups were brought in.

9 Q. Could you say approximately what was the maximum number

10 of people there inside the hangar?

11 A. Around 280-300. That is in Hangar Number 6.

12 Q. Approximately in which period of time the hangar reached

13 this maximum of people inside there?

14 A. In the period -- within the period of 15-20 days.

15 Q. Approximately in which month?

16 A. I was detained on 27th May and the rest of them were

17 coming from the late May through early June.

18 Q. All right. Mr. Kuljanin, did you personally suffer any

19 physical maltreatment during your stay inside Hangar 6?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Did that happen once or more than once?

22 A. More than once.

23 Q. Can you please describe in detail every single incident,

24 if possible, in chronological order, starting from the

25 first one?

Page 2491

1 A. Yes, I can.

2 Q. Please do that.

3 A. After the first one, when the International Red Cross

4 came, that was on 12th August 1992, after they left,

5 when the International Red Cross left, a group led by

6 Hazim Delic burst in, about ten people, ten armed

7 guards, and they ordered us to be beaten. Then they

8 beat us over our backs and our kidneys.

9 Q. Can you name any of these guards?

10 A. There was Kemo Mrndzic, called Bosanac, and then

11 Camdzic. I don't recall the names of the others.

12 Q. With what were you beaten?

13 A. Mostly kicks.

14 Q. How many people were in the hangar at that time?

15 A. Somewhere around 200, 280.

16 Q. How many of these people were beaten on that occasion?

17 A. We were all beaten.

18 Q. So how long did this beating last overall?

19 A. Around one hour.

20 Q. Did the people beating you say something during the

21 beating?

22 A. The reason for our being beaten was because we told the

23 International Red Cross that we were detained there as

24 civilians and not as members of the military. That was

25 the only reason.

Page 2492

1 Q. Was the reason stated by the people who were beating you

2 while you were beaten?

3 A. Yes, yes.

4 Q. Do you remember who exactly told you something like

5 that, if you were told directly something like that?

6 A. They were not saying it to the individuals. They told

7 it to the entire group that was in the hangar. The

8 moment they walked in the door they started cursing.

9 Q. What about the next incident in which you were

10 personally maltreated?

11 A. On one occasion when we were taken out they had us

12 stripped down to the waist, apparently to sunbathe, and

13 Hazim Delic was there and he hit Dragan Kravar. Then

14 they ordered us to re-enter the hangar, and I sat

15 down. I could not sit down until Hazim Delic ordered

16 it. Then he came over to me and he said: "Why did you

17 sit down?" I said: "I'm sorry, sir. I forgot to sit

18 down without your order." Then he said: "Turn around

19 and raise your hands", and he kicked me four times.

20 After the first kick I fell down. After every of his

21 kick I fell down to the concrete.

22 Q. Was there any other incident in which you were

23 personally maltreated besides this one?

24 A. Yes. When I asked guard Honda to go out to the toilet,

25 he let me go out. When I came back, he told me to

Page 2493

1 stop. Then he started hitting me. I don't know the

2 reason for it, why he was hitting me.

3 Q. Do you remember very approximately when did this happen?

4 A. June. June.

5 Q. Were there any other incidents in which you were

6 maltreated besides this one personally?

7 A. Well, yes, there was.

8 Q. Can you describe every single incident?

9 A. Yes, but I did not count it as a beating if he would

10 just slap me or spit on me. That was something that

11 would happen daily not just to me but to the majority of

12 the prisoners who were there in the hangar on the part

13 of the guards who were guarding us.

14 Q. Can you name some of these people who maltreated you

15 these next occasions?

16 A. Esad Landzo called Zenga, Kemo Mrndzic, Kemo Bosanac,

17 Tundic, Padalovic. There were others but I cannot

18 remember them.

19 Q. Who did exactly Esad Landzo do to you?

20 A. He only hit me once, Esad Landzo that is.

21 Q. Can you describe this occasion in detail?

22 A. I came outside. When I was returning back he kicked

23 me. I don't know the reason for it.

24 Q. Returning back from where?

25 A. From the toilet.

Page 2494

1 Q. With which -- with what did he beat you?

2 A. He kicked me with his boot.

3 Q. Do you have any other incidents in which you suffered

4 personal maltreatment you have to talk to us besides the

5 one you already described?

6 A. I was not beaten, but I was mistreated. On one

7 occasion I was called to Pavo Mucic's office and Delic

8 was in there as well. I walked in there and they asked

9 me a question. There was a bullet from some weapons, I

10 don't know which one. Then I was asked: "What is

11 this?" I said: "I don't know what it is. I cannot

12 recall what it is." Then they asked me whether I made

13 love to any Bosnian or Muslim woman or Croat woman and

14 I said "No".

15 Q. Who asked you that?

16 A. Pavo Mucic and Delic.

17 Q. And where did that happen?

18 A. In the command building within the camp compound, in the

19 office.

20 Q. Approximately when did that happen? At least in which

21 month?

22 A. September. I don't know.

23 Q. Who brought you there to the command building?

24 A. I don't know. One of the guards. I don't know the

25 name.

Page 2495

1 Q. Did this concern you alone or any other prisoners?

2 I mean, were you brought there alone or with some other

3 prisoners?

4 A. On that occasion I was brought in alone.

5 Q. Uh-huh. Now, your Honour, my next question will deal

6 with some protected witness, so I would ask you to

7 proceed in private session for a few minutes.

8 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Let them get into private session.

9 (In private session)

10 (redacted)

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25 (redacted)

Page 2496

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5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

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20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (In open session)

24 MR. TURONE: Right. Now, Mr. Kuljanin, did you personally

25 eyewitness any other mistreatment of any other prisoner

Page 2497

1 while you were in Hangar 6?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Would you please describe in detail every single

4 incident you may remember that you personally saw one by

5 one. Please do that?

6 A. Okay. Landzo, Zenga, Esad Landzo, known as Zenga,

7 entered the hangar and called Vukasin Mrkajic, told him

8 to take his clothes off. He only had his pants on, his

9 underwear. Then he put a fuse to him and set light to

10 it, and he ordered him to run round between the rows

11 where we were sitting. He ran screaming. He didn't

12 dare to stop the burning fuse.

13 Q. Can you say approximately when did that happen, at least

14 the month?

15 A. I think it was June or July.

16 Q. Again, do you remember from which position you could

17 eyewitness this incident?

18 A. It could be seen regardless of where you were sitting,

19 but I was sitting in position number 1.

20 Q. Thank you.

21 A. You are welcome.

22 Q. Then did you see other incidents concerning other

23 prisoners?

24 A. Yes. Dusko Bendjo.

25 Q. Yes.

Page 2498

1 A. Esad Landzo, known as Zenga, brought a small bottle -- I

2 don't know what was inside -- and he poured the liquid

3 over his legs and set light to it. After that he had

4 enormous burns and blisters and this lasts for a long

5 time. He was given no treatment and then it festered,

6 the wounds, and it couldn't heal. When he put on his

7 trousers, the trousers stuck to the wound and whenever

8 he tried to release the trousers, the wound spread, and

9 he was sitting very close to me, so I could see all

10 this.

11 Q. All right. Then can you say approximately when did

12 that happen, at least the month?

13 A. June, July, something like that.

14 Q. Can you describe the next incident you might have seen

15 with your eyes?

16 A. In the same way Nedeljko Draganic was treated. The

17 same happened to Nedeljko Draganic. Esad Landzo walked

18 in with the small bottle. He poured the liquid on his

19 legs and set light to it. Nedjo Draganic was sitting

20 opposite from me. When he set light to this, he didn't

21 dare extinguish it and then there were enormous burns.

22 There was no medical treatment. Not one of the doctors

23 came to see what had happened to Nedjo, to Dusko and a

24 third man.

25 Q. Again can you remember approximately when did this

Page 2499

1 happen?

2 A. This was mostly in June and July.

3 Q. From which position could you eyewitness this incident?

4 A. Position number 1.

5 Q. Is there any other incident of maltreatment of prisoners

6 you could eyewitness?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Please tell us.

9 A. Mirko Dordic, Mirko Dordic. He was called out by Esad

10 Landzo, known as Zenga. Mirko got up. Esad Landzo

11 was standing at the entrance. He had a knife in his

12 hand. Then he heated the knife and ordered Mirko to

13 stick out his tongue and he put this heated knife to his

14 tongue.

15 Q. Again, do you remember approximately when did that

16 happen, at least the month?

17 A. June, July.

18 Q. And the position from which you could eyewitness --

19 A. 1. 1.

20 Q. Any other incident you remember?

21 A. Momir Kuljanin. Zenga also heated this knife and

22 ordered him to put out both the palms of his hands.

23 Then he used the heated knife on his palms. Enormous

24 blisters developed on Momir's palms.

25 Q. Can you say approximately when did that happen, at least

Page 2500

1 the month?

2 A. July.

3 Q. From which position you could eyewitness this?

4 A. Number 1, position number 1.

5 Q. Is there any other incident suffered by other prisoners

6 you might remember?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Please tell us.

9 A. (Not translated).

10 Q. The translation doesn't come.

11 A. Samoukovic Bosko was about 60. Esad Landzo entered the

12 hangar.

13 Q. What happened then after Esad Landzo entered the hangar?

14 A. He asked Bosko, whose name he had called, what his

15 surname was. He told him "Samoukovic". He ordered him

16 to repeat it out loud, but one could easily understand

17 what he had said. We had all heard him. He said that

18 his name was Samoukovic. Then he hit him once while he

19 was sitting. Then he took him towards the door. He

20 took a plank. It was about 5 cms thick, about 1 metre

21 long. Near the door he hit him. Bosko fell and he

22 didn't get up again. Several prisoners took him away

23 somewhere. I don't know where they took him. After

24 that we heard that Bosko had died.

25 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honour, I am going to object to what he

Page 2501

1 heard and ask that that be stricken. That is hearsay

2 and that is not reliable.

3 MR. TURONE: Your Honours, according to the Rules of our

4 Tribunal an absolute exclusion of any hearsay evidence

5 -- an exclusion for a matter of principle of any

6 hearsay evidence does not belong to our legal system.

7 There is a matter of reliability, of non-reliability of

8 hearsay evidence. The reliability has to be assessed,

9 can be assessed case by case by the Chamber. This is

10 the Tadic case law on hearsay. In this case we have an

11 information given to our witness in a way which I cannot

12 see how it could be unreliable. Anyway, the main point

13 is that a general exclusion for a general principle --

14 for a general matter of principle of hearsay evidence

15 does not belong to our legal system.

16 JUDGE JAN: But he can be asked from where did he hear

17 this, from whom did he hear this.

18 MR. TURONE: I can do that, if you wish.

19 Mr. Kuljanin, from whom did you hear that Bosko

20 Samoukovic died?

21 A. I heard it from his sons, Milan and Necko, who were with

22 me in the hangar.

23 MR. GREAVES: I am sorry to intervene. Can I remind your

24 Honours of the decision in the Tadic case. It is

25 paragraph 19 of that decision. The prosecution has in

Page 2502

1 my submission according to that decision, and I can hand

2 your Honour the copy that I have if you want to refresh

3 your memories of this. It says this:

4 "Accordingly, in deciding whether or not hearsay

5 evidence that has been objected to will be excluded, the

6 Trial Chamber will determine whether the proffered

7 evidence is relevant and has probative value focussing

8 on its reliability. In doing so, the Trial Chamber

9 will hear both the circumstances under which the

10 evidence arose as well as the content of the

11 statement. The Trial Chamber may be guided by, but not

12 bound to, hearsay exceptions generally recognised by

13 some national legal systems as well as the truthfulness,

14 voluntariness and trustworthiness of the evidence as

15 appropriate."

16 Your Honour, what the prosecution has to do is lay

17 a proper foundation for adducing the circumstances in

18 which the evidence or the statement of the person not

19 before the court was made. Simply to say who made it is

20 not a proper foundation, in my submission. It has to

21 go much further than that.

22 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: I think the foundation has been made

23 further by all the facts relative to the man being

24 beaten, taken out, and then he later being heard to have

25 done it. Those are all factors earlier to his death.

Page 2503

1 That is the foundation.

2 MR. GREAVES: In my submission, your Honour, it has to be

3 this, if I may suggest this. How soon after the

4 incident did it take place? What time of day? What was

5 the demeanour of the person who was saying it? Were

6 they distraught? So on and so forth. Those are the

7 circumstances that determine the reliability of the

8 person who is making the statement. That is what the

9 Tadic Decision is aimed at, in my submission, and it is

10 that foundation that the prosecution has to lay in every

11 case where it seeks to rely upon hearsay. That is my

12 submission.

13 I respectfully suggest that my learned friend has

14 not laid that proper foundation and should not be

15 allowed to adduce that evidence, unless he can do so

16 with this witness.

17 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: I do not think it is as absolute as

18 that. I think much of the foundation may be acceptable

19 if it is relevant and I think it is relevant. The only

20 answer is the probative value might be less than what

21 you say. Definitely the evidence is relevant to the

22 death of the person he is indicating.

23 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honours, I want to join in the remarks

24 of my learned colleague, Mr. Greaves, and also point out

25 that the way this answer has solicited was without any

Page 2504

1 prior identification of the speaker or any other

2 information about the circumstances under which the

3 statement was made. Now there cannot be under those

4 circumstances any foundation having been established by

5 anyone.

6 Under the Tadic Decision the burden to prove

7 reliability is upon the Prosecutor, and to simply ask a

8 question: "What did you hear about what happened?",

9 gives this court no basis upon which to make a Ruling

10 regarding whether or not that hearsay might be reliable

11 and admissible. That is the problem with the way the

12 question was put.

13 The question should be put in a way that first

14 identifies the time in relation to the incident, the

15 identity of the speaker, the relationship of the speaker

16 to the various parties involved, so that this court can

17 have some basis upon which to make a decision regarding

18 reliability, but I submit that the court cannot make

19 that decision on no basis or upon some presumption that,

20 because there has been prior evidence regarding an

21 incident, that that somehow makes a speaker reliable.

22 I do not think that that follows. Thank you.

23 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Thank you very much.

24 MR. TURONE: May I give an answer to this argument, your

25 Honour?

Page 2505


2 MR. TURONE: I would say that when any piece of hearsay

3 evidence comes out from the account a witness is giving

4 in open court, this is exactly the way hearsay evidence

5 is likely to enter into the understanding of everybody

6 in the court room. So the assessment of unreliability

7 has necessarily to be done immediately inside the

8 testimony itself of the witness who is bringing out this

9 hearsay information.

10 So again I quote the Tadic Decision on hearsay,

11 which fixes some parameters: truthfulness,

12 voluntariness, trustworthiness, through which a frontier

13 can be drawn immediately between reliability and

14 non-reliability in the immediate moment of a testimony

15 like this is coming to the court. In a case like this

16 the assessment of this prima facie reliability issue has

17 to be done immediately, case by case, on a case by case

18 basis by the Trial Chamber, because the general rule is

19 that a general exclusion for a matter of principle of

20 hearsay evidence does not belong to our legal system.

21 Again, I would say we have to distinguish between

22 this prima facie assessment of reliability and the

23 further assessment on the probative value and on the

24 weight to be given to this evidence. This is another

25 problem which has to be assessed later on. In this

Page 2506

1 case we have a witness who gives information in a clear

2 way, precisely, identifying the persons and the

3 circumstances in a way immediately after the concerned

4 event without any motive to fabricate. So I would say

5 that reliability, scrutiny, is enough in this case.

6 MR. MORAN: Your Honours, first I would like to join my

7 learned colleagues' position. I just point something

8 out. My friend on the prosecution seems, I think, to

9 be turning it on its head. The Rules here do not

10 recognise hearsay. They recognise all evidence be

11 treated the same way, which is: is it probative? Is it

12 relevant? Is it reliable?

13 If, for instance, I were to say: "I want to

14 introduce this picture or this document", and not show

15 why it is probative, why it is reliable, why it is

16 relevant, especially reliable prior to the time it was

17 admitted, my learned friend would surely be objecting,

18 because I have to show its admissibility prior to the

19 time I ask to have it admitted.

20 Secondly, there are two different concepts I think

21 that the prosecution is confusing or mixing. One is

22 the concept of admissibility and the second is the

23 concept to be given to weight -- weight to be given to

24 evidence once it is admitted. You have -- may have

25 very, very probative, very, very good evidence, which

Page 2507

1 should be given great weight, yet it may be excluded for

2 some other reason. It may have been gathered in

3 violation of international humanitarian law and be

4 excluded under the rules. So the court would not even

5 have to consider how much weight to give it. Before we

6 consider the weight to be given to evidence, it has to

7 be admissible. With those remarks, your Honour, I join

8 with what my friends have said.

9 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honour, I believe that where we find

10 ourselves at this point is that the Prosecutor and I are

11 largely in agreement regarding the law in this

12 regard,. Where we diverge is the prosecution seems to

13 want to do this in a kind of backwards order: first,

14 solicit the hearsay and then establish the foundation

15 which supports its admission. That is the backward way

16 to do it. The prosecution controls the order of its

17 presentation. The prosecution has had an opportunity

18 to prepare its witness. The prosecution knows the

19 nature of the testimony the witness is about to give

20 when it puts the question. It is the order of the

21 issue that is important, and that is the prosecution

22 must lay the foundation first before the hearsay is

23 elicited. That's the problem, as I see it, at this

24 point. I think we agree on what the law is pretty

25 much.

Page 2508

1 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Mr. Greaves, do you still have anything

2 to say.

3 MR. GREAVES: I have two things I want to remind your Honours

4 of, if I may, please. It is paragraphs 15 and 16 of

5 the principle majority Decision in the Tadic case.

6 That says this:

7 "The Trial Chamber is bound by the Rules, which

8 implicitly require that reliability be a component of

9 admissibility, that is if evidence offered is

10 unreliable, it certainly would not have probative value

11 and would be excluded under subrule (89)(c).

12 Therefore, even without a specific Rule precluding the

13 admission of hearsay, the Trial Chamber may exclude

14 evidence that lacks probative value because it is

15 unreliable. Thus the focus in determining whether

16 evidence is probative within the meaning of subrule

17 (89)(c) should be at a minimum that the evidence is

18 reliable.

19 16. In evaluating the probative value of hearsay

20 evidence the Trial Chamber is compelled to pay special

21 attention to the indicia of its reliability. In

22 reaching this determination the Trial Chamber may

23 consider whether the statement is voluntary, truthful

24 and trustworthy as appropriate."

25 That is the majority decision, your Honours. The

Page 2509

1 learned judge, Judge Stephen, said this as well in

2 dealing with subrule (c):

3 "Much will depend upon the context and character

4 of the evidence in question."

5 I say again the Decision in Tadic says this: The

6 prosecution, before it can adduce words that are said by

7 a person who is not in court, must lay the foundation

8 for that evidence in order to demonstrate that it is

9 reliable. If it cannot do so, it may not be allowed to

10 adduce the evidence.

11 In my submission, the prosecution have throughout

12 this case not done that exercise, and we have served a

13 notice saying that on every occasion when they cannot

14 lay the foundation we will get up and object to it.

15 This is what we are doing today.

16 MR. TURONE: Am I allowed, your Honour, to add something

17 else?

18 JUDGE JAN: Before you do that, I would like to know: are

19 you examining Samoukovic's son as a witness in this

20 case.

21 MR. TURONE: I beg your pardon.

22 JUDGE JAN: Are you examining the dead person's son as a

23 witness in this case?

24 MR. TURONE: No, your Honour. Anyway I would add that,

25 since a hearsay like this obviously comes out suddenly

Page 2510

1 during the testimony, this assessment cannot be done

2 except in this very moment, as we are doing, but I would

3 say --

4 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: I think this is a fairly difficult

5 thing to say. You cannot do it. The issue is: how

6 reliable is the evidence of this witness, who is telling

7 you what someone else has told him?

8 MR. TURONE: Well, in this case --

9 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: This is the main thing.

10 MR. TURONE: In this case I would say the solution is even

11 rather easy, because we are talking about a person who

12 the witness said: "I heard from somebody else that

13 died." I will point out that we start our trial on

14 March 10th. We had a number of witnesses and this issue

15 of Bosko Samoukovic being actually dead is rather

16 unquestionable. Since the hearsay evidence we heard

17 today is simply about the fact that Bosko Samoukovic

18 died, I cannot see how we cannot consider reliable this

19 information.

20 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: It is a little awkward. You mean,

21 because we have been hearing that other witnesses have

22 said he died, that is sufficient evidence of reliability

23 of that evidence?

24 MR. TURONE: This -- the fact itself of the death of Bosko

25 Samoukovic comes out from other circumstances we had the

Page 2511

1 chance to hear in this trial in the previous hearings.

2 So I think this is part of our set of information, and

3 I think this can be used by the Chamber to assess

4 concretely the reliability of the information about

5 Bosko Samoukovic being dead. This is our submission.

6 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Who saw him dead? Who saw him dead?

7 MR. TURONE: We had other testimonies, previous testimonies,

8 through which the death of Bosko Samoukovic was

9 explained as a fact being actually occurred.

10 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: What you are saying here -- you are

11 now relying on his children telling their fellow inmate

12 that their father had died. How reliable is their own

13 information that their father had died?

14 MR. TURONE: Your Honours, I am relying about the Tadic case

15 law. Reliability cannot be excluded in an absolute

16 way. In my opinion the reliability in this case is

17 unquestionable considering the parameters set by the

18 Tadic case law. What we said is reasonably credible.

19 The information was given to him by persons inside the

20 camp in the immediate time in a rather precise way. So

21 this is --

22 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: How were they associated with his

23 death? Do they know where he died?

24 MR. TURONE: If I am entitled to ask any other questions

25 about that --

Page 2512

1 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: No, because they were all together

2 with him in detention.

3 MR. TURONE: I beg your pardon, your Honour?

4 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Those two children were together with

5 this witness in detention.

6 MR. TURONE: Yes.

7 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: And were not at the place where their

8 father was alleged to have died. What was their own

9 information? How could they have sworn to the fact that

10 he had died?

11 MR. TURONE: In my opinion this applies to the real

12 probative value of this information and the weight of

13 this evidence. Personally I believe that this is not

14 very important evidence which has come out now about the

15 witness having heard by somebody else that Bosko

16 Samoukovic has died. I do not believe that this is a

17 very important information, even for our prosecution

18 case, but it came out and it happened already in the

19 past hearings that some witness said: "This was told to

20 me by so and so." No discussion like this arose until

21 now.

22 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: The fact having been presented as it

23 has arisen now, if at any stage anybody came up to give

24 evidence that somebody told him somebody had died, that

25 would not be evidence of the death of that other person.

Page 2513

1 MR. TURONE: I am not saying that that --

2 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: This is what you are trying to do

3 here.

4 JUDGE JAN: You are linking up the death with the

5 beating. The death has occurred but whether it was as

6 a result of beating or not is a different matter

7 altogether.

8 MR. TURONE: I am not claiming that we have to reach a

9 conclusion on the link between the beatings and the

10 death of Bosko Samoukovic on the basis of what we are

11 hearing today. My submission is that all this and all

12 the other evidence on any other count will be the result

13 of the entire set of testimonies and evidence which will

14 be carried on during the trial.

15 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: We have been hearing a lot of people

16 who died. I think that might not even matter. People

17 who might have died, whether they are relevant or not,

18 that is another thing, when you come forward to give

19 evidence positively about the death of a person, which

20 means we should now accept it as a fact that that person

21 died, as a result of a beating; this is the idea.

22 MR. TURONE: In my --

23 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: If that is what you are pursuing, it

24 might be difficult to link this with the evidence this

25 witness has given.

Page 2514

1 MR. TURONE: My submission is that this witness is not in a

2 position to say anything more than he said on this

3 incident. I am not claiming, pretending this witness

4 to have -- can give us anything more about this

5 incident.

6 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Then you do not have to pursue it,

7 which means the objection is valid. He cannot go

8 further than to say he knew he was taken out and that

9 was the end of it, and not what his children told him,

10 who were not in a position to give that evidence.

11 MR. TURONE: All right, your Honour. We can pass to

12 another issue in that case, but still I think I have to

13 put my answers to the witness in order to have -- my

14 questions to the witness in order to have answers to the

15 extent he is informed. If he only saw some beatings

16 and does not know what happened later on, and simply

17 said what he heard about what might have happened later

18 on, this is enough for me. I am trying to get from

19 this witness only what he eyewitnessed, only what he saw

20 with his eyes. This is what I was doing actually until

21 this incident.

22 JUDGE JAN: I thought the defence has raised the objection

23 because you were linking up the death of Bosko with the

24 beating given to him by Zenga and that is why they stood

25 up. How do they now how he died? Maybe the son knows

Page 2515

1 his father is dead but that does not necessarily link it

2 with the beating given to him by Zenga.

3 MR. TURONE: Your Honour, I only asked this witness to tell

4 us what he saw with his eyes about the incident

5 concerning Bosko Samoukovic.

6 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: He did not see the death.

7 MR. TURONE: He did not see the death, but I did not ask him

8 anything about the death of Bosko Samoukovic. I just

9 asked him to say what he saw as incidents concerning any

10 other prisoner.

11 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: We have spent too long on this issue.

12 MR. GREAVES: Can I offer something of assistance to my

13 learned friend. I am not trying to be difficult or

14 anything. I am just trying to apply the law. I have

15 the advantage over all of my learned friends in this

16 court in that in England an Wales counsel both

17 prosecutes and defends.

18 If I was in his position as soon as there is any

19 sign of a witness being about to tell us something he

20 has heard, conventional hearsay, it would be right to

21 stop the witness and say: "Before you tell us what is

22 said, give us the circumstances in which you heard the

23 conversation."

24 Then, if he has then established and laid the

25 foundation of proving its reliability -- and in this

Page 2516

1 case the burden of proof lies upon him -- then he may go

2 on to ask, with your Honour's leave: "Tell us what was

3 said", but only if the essence of reliability has been

4 proved. That is point one.

5 The second point is this: I notice the phrase

6 "this evidence is reasonably credible" creeping in.

7 The standard of proof in this court is "beyond

8 reasonable doubt". "Reasonably credible" is not good

9 enough.

10 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: This is not the stage when we talk

11 about the higher burden but definitely it comes at all

12 stages. When the prosecution is proving any point, it

13 has to prove it beyond reasonable doubt.

14 MR. TURONE: Of course I have to prove it beyond reasonable

15 doubt, but case by case and testimony by testimony.

16 I cannot prove any single account. I can only get out

17 from any single witness what the single witness can

18 know.

19 Anyway, in future I will do what my learned

20 colleague has suggested to do and I thank him.

21 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Actually he was being helpful.

22 MR. TURONE: And I thank him very much. Otherwise we do

23 not have to do with a jury in this trial but with

24 professional judges. So if anything comes out which is

25 not exactly what would be deemed proper for a jury, I do

Page 2517

1 not think we should worry so much, since we are in a --

2 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: I think this is a matter to worry

3 about, because it is fundamental.

4 MR. TURONE: All right, your Honour. May I proceed?

5 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Yes, you can.

6 MR. TURONE: Let us say now: Do you know any direct

7 knowledge about the circumstances of the death of any

8 prisoner inside the camp? I mean, did you directly

9 eyewitness some incident which was concluded with the

10 death of a person?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Please tell us?

13 A. Zjelko Cecez called Spanac was called out at 1 o'clock,

14 after midnight, by a guard. He was taken out in front

15 of the hangar. I did not see who beat him, but I heard

16 his moans as he was moaning in front of the hangar.

17 After he was beaten four people were called out from the

18 hangar to carry him back in. It was night and in the

19 morning, when I woke up, Zjelko Spanac was lying dead

20 two metres away from me. He remained in that position

21 for two days. That is the proof. That is the proof.

22 Q. Could you eyewitness any other incident which was

23 concluded with the death of a person?

24 A. Zjelko. The death of Zjelko.

25 Q. Zjelko whom?

Page 2518

1 A. Zjelko Klimenta.

2 Q. Did you eyewitness this killing?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Could you tell us, please?

5 A. Emir Kovacic walked in the hangar one day and brought to

6 Zjelko a pack of cigarettes. He was followed by Hazim

7 Delic, who said: "Why are you giving it to him? Fuck

8 him! He is not going to need it." I apologise for this

9 expression, but those are the words of Hazim Delic.

10 Q. Yes. Then what happened?

11 A. Next day early in the morning Zjelko Klimenta was taken

12 out and together with him Garo Kujundzic also went

13 out. I don't know his first name but his given name

14 was Garo. A shot was heard and Garo returned to the

15 hangar. We asked him: "Garo, what happened?" He said

16 that Klimenta was killed.

17 MR. ACKERMAN: Again we are back to an out-of-court

18 statement. We have asked him what happened and here is

19 what he said without the foundation having been laid.

20 We just went through that. I am not going to repeat

21 all that argument.

22 MR. TURONE: You know, your Honour, in our opinion

23 foundation exists already and is clear from what the

24 witness is saying. This is our submission.

25 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: There is a direct link.

Page 2519

1 MR. TURONE: Again, in this case we have an information

2 given to the witness in a clear, precise way by a

3 precisely identified person, and immediately after the

4 concerned event without any motive of fabrication. So

5 this first glance reliability can be assessed in a

6 positive way immediately. Otherwise we should reach

7 the conclusion that any hearsay is anyway excluded for a

8 matter of principle in our legal system, which is not

9 true, because the case law in the Tadic case and the

10 previous Decisions of this Chamber is not -- were not in

11 this direction. In this case we have a person who came

12 back and told him immediately something. If this has

13 to be excluded from the transcript, I would object to

14 that, but I cannot say anything else than at least in

15 this case foundation exists already, and it is clear

16 from what the witness is just saying right now.

17 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Have you asked him whether that was

18 the last he saw of the person?

19 MR. TURONE: My question was to say what he saw about this

20 incident, totally or partially saw about this incident,

21 and this is the account the witness is giving to us.

22 This is part of this witness's account on the incident

23 concerning Mr. Zjelko Klimenta. So I ask your Honours

24 to allow the witness to go ahead in his account.

25 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: I am asking: have you asked him any

Page 2520

1 further questions after he had seen -- after he got the

2 information whether he --

3 MR. TURONE: He was right saying to us and he was

4 interrupted by the learned colleague of the defence.

5 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: He had completed saying what he was

6 telling you. He has given his answers. Did you

7 further ask whether he had seen the man after that?

8 MR. TURONE: Do you mean Zeljko Klimenta?


10 MR. TURONE: All right. Did you see Zeljko Klimenta after

11 that?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Can you tell us the detail of what you saw about?

14 A. When I went to the toilet Zjelko Klimenta was lying near

15 the hangar, dead.

16 Q. This concludes your account on this incident, I suppose?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Is there any other incident you could eyewitness which

19 was concluded with the death of a person inside the

20 camp?

21 A. Milorad Kuljanin.

22 Q. Again can you say what you exactly saw with your eyes?

23 A. Macic, whose nickname was Makaron, walked in and it was

24 the Bairaim Muslim holiday and he said that he would

25 kill a number of us. However, he called out Milorad

Page 2521

1 Kuljanin. He took him out and one shot was heard being

2 fired. Following that, after that was finished, I also

3 went out and Milorad was lying in the same place where

4 Keljo had been lying and he was dead.

5 Q. All right. Was any relative of yours detained also in

6 Celebici?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Who was that?

9 A. It was my father, my brother, myself and a number of my

10 relatives, friends and kin.

11 Q. What is the name of your brother?

12 A. Milenko Kuljanin.

13 Q. Could you see your brother while you were in Celebici?

14 A. Not in the beginning but later yes, because he was in

15 Hangar Number 9 at the beginning. Later he was

16 transferred to Hangar Number 6.

17 Q. Later when?

18 A. Some time in September he was transferred to the hangar.

19 Q. Mr. Kuljanin, did you know any of the Celebici guards

20 from before the war?

21 A. I knew Esad Landzo by sight.

22 Q. What role did you observe Delic having in the Celebici

23 camp?

24 A. He was the deputy commander of the camp.

25 Q. How frequently did you see him inside Celebici camp?

Page 2522

1 A. I saw him five or six times.

2 Q. Did you have any chance to talk to him besides the time

3 when you were in the command building?

4 A. No.

5 Q. Was there a time when Mr. Delic had some problem with his

6 legs?

7 A. Yes, but that did not impede him to beat us.

8 MR. MORAN: Your Honour, that is not responsive. He was

9 asked if he had any problem with his legs.

10 MR. TURONE: My question was which kind of a problem did he

11 have at his legs. Do you remember which problem? How

12 could you guess that he had a problem at his leg?

13 A. I think he had plaster in the beginning. I don't

14 recollect.

15 Q. All right.

16 A. I don't know what his problem may have been.

17 Q. Can you describe Mr. Delic?

18 A. Tall, rather widely built, receding hair.

19 MR. MORAN: Your Honour, if the court would look at the

20 monitors, just a second ago, while he was being asked to

21 describe Mr. Delic, Mr. Delic's face popped up on the

22 video monitor.

23 JUDGE JAN: Is it your case that he did not know Delic?

24 MR. MORAN: No, your Honour. My position is when you are

25 asked to describe a witness, the TV people should not

Page 2523

1 put his face directly in front of the witness while he

2 is doing the describing.

3 MR. TURONE: Maybe the video of the witness is not on? The

4 video is not on, I believe. It is on?

5 MR. GREAVES: No, it is not. It is off.

6 MR. TURONE: We always check beforehand that the video of

7 the witness is not on.

8 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: This is not a point in argument, is

9 it?

10 MR. MORAN: No, your Honour. It is just I wish that

11 somebody would instruct the television people when

12 someone is being asked to describe a witness, let us not

13 put it on television. It makes for an awfully easy

14 identification if an issue of that does pop up.

15 MR. TURONE: In any case --

16 JUDGE JAN: He must have seen the face so many times he can

17 recall it.

18 MR. TURONE: In any case, your Honour, the video of the

19 witness is not on.

20 So can you describe Mr. Delic again? You were

21 describing him. You were interrupted.

22 A. Delic: height, 180-185 cms, rather broad, strong,

23 receding hair, brown hair.

24 Q. Can you describe Mr. Landzo?

25 A. Mr. Landzo: height, 175, thin -- he was at that time --

Page 2524

1 brown hair.

2 Q. What role did you observe -- I mean, did you have

3 personal knowledge of who was the commander of the

4 Celebici camp?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Who was it?

7 A. Pavo Mucic.

8 Q. Did you see him in the camp besides the occasion you

9 already described?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. How many times approximately did you see Mr. Mucic in the

12 camp?

13 A. I saw him inside the camp on about two occasions.

14 Q. Two occasions besides the one you already described or

15 including the one you already described?

16 A. Yes. No.

17 Q. Tell us.

18 MR. GREAVES: Please, we have got to get -- which question

19 is he answering and what answer is he giving to which

20 question.

21 MR. TURONE: That is my interest too. I want to know how

22 many times did you see Mr. Mucic in the camp besides the

23 occasion you already described in the command building?

24 A. I saw him twice inside the camp.

25 Q. Twice inside the camp. So can you describe these two

Page 2525

1 occasions when you saw Mr. Mucic in the camp?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Can you say when was the first time?

4 A. In August, September.

5 Q. You mean August or September?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Where in the camp did you see him in this occasion?

8 A. Inside the camp, inside Hangar Number 6.

9 Q. Can you give us some details about this visit of

10 Mr. Mucic inside the hangar?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Please tell us.

13 A. On one occasion he and Delic walked in. They had a

14 list of people with them, and they started reading it

15 out. They were going to move them to the sports hall.

16 Q. All right. Then let us go now to the second occasion

17 you saw Mr. Mucic in the camp. Can you give us some

18 details about that?

19 A. Yes. The second time I saw him when he called out Bato

20 Kuljanin from Donje Selo. He called him out, to come

21 out.

22 Q. Do you mean out of Hangar 6?

23 A. Yes, yes.

24 Q. Do you remember approximately when did this happen?

25 A. August.

Page 2526

1 Q. Did Mr. Mucic in any of the occasions you saw him wear a

2 uniform?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. In every occasion or only in some occasions?

5 A. On all occasions when I saw him.

6 Q. Did you ever have a chance to talk to him besides the

7 occasion you saw him in the command building?

8 A. No.

9 Q. Did you know Mr. Mucic from before the war?

10 A. Yes, by sight.

11 Q. Where did you see him before the war?

12 A. In the town of Konjic.

13 Q. Do you remember: when did you see him the last time

14 before your arrival at Celebici?

15 A. I don't remember. I don't remember when I saw him.

16 Q. Now, Mr. Kuljanin, were you ever interrogated by military

17 investigators during your stay in Celebici?

18 A. In the beginning.

19 Q. Can you give us some detail about this interrogation?

20 A. They asked me where I lived, what I did and whether

21 I had any weapons.

22 Q. When you say "at the beginning", can you approximately

23 give us a date or anyway a period of time when did this

24 happen?

25 A. In June, early June.

Page 2527

1 Q. Where inside the camp were you interrogated?

2 A. In the command building.

3 Q. Were you interrogated by one person or more persons?

4 A. Two, two persons.

5 Q. Do you know the name of these two persons?

6 A. Stenek. I don't know his first name, but Stenek. The

7 last name is Stenek.

8 Q. Do you know the name of the other person?

9 A. No.

10 Q. Were you accused of anything specific?

11 A. No.

12 Q. Were they in uniform?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Did they have some insignia on their uniforms as far as

15 you remember?

16 A. I cannot recall.

17 Q. Did you sign any piece of paper after this

18 interrogation?

19 A. I don't recall, but even if I did, I had to.

20 Q. Was that a long interrogation?

21 A. Yes, about an hour.

22 Q. Do you remember what did they ask you?

23 A. I did not hear the question.

24 Q. What did they ask you during this interrogation?

25 A. They asked me whether I had weapons, where I was, what

Page 2528

1 did I do, who was the person in charge of Bradina, who

2 armed us.

3 Q. Were there any judicial proceedings against us after

4 that?

5 A. No.

6 Q. Did anybody take your valuables on the occasion of your

7 arrest or during your detention at Celebici?

8 A. Yes. That happened immediately upon arrival in the

9 Celebici camp on 27th May 1992.

10 Q. What valuables did you have to hand over?

11 A. If we had gold, money, documents and everything else.

12 Q. Did you ever get your property back?

13 A. No.

14 Q. When did you leave Celebici camp?

15 A. 17th November 1992.

16 Q. What happened to you when you left Celebici?

17 A. I was transferred to the sports hall, Musala in Konjic.

18 Q. Do you know who was the Commander of the Musala camp?

19 A. Ismet Habibovic.

20 Q. Did you ever see Mr. Mucic inside the Musala camp?

21 A. No.

22 MR. GREAVES: Your Honour, he is not charged with any

23 offence in relation to Musala.

24 JUDGE JAN: He has not seen him, he says.

25 MR. GREAVES: It has to satisfy the test of relevance,

Page 2529

1 I think.

2 JUDGE JAN: He said "no".

3 MR. GREAVES: I do apologise. I am leaping to my feet too

4 soon.

5 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Mr. Turone, we have to break for 30

6 minutes. We will come back at 4.30.

7 MR. TURONE: All right.

8 (4.00 pm)

9 (Short break)

10 (4.30 pm).

11 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Please invite the witness in.

12 (Witness returns to court)

13 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Remind him he is on his oath.

14 THE REGISTRAR: I should like to remind you that you are

15 still testifying under oath.

16 A. Yes.

17 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: You may proceed.

18 MR. TURONE: Thank you, your Honour.

19 So, Mr. Kuljanin, when were you released from any

20 kind of detention?

21 A. On 6th October 1994 I was exchanged in Sarajevo in the

22 presence of the International Red Cross.

23 Q. All right.

24 I believe this ends my examination-in-chief, your

25 Honour. Thank you.

Page 2530

1 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: How have you decided to go about

2 cross-examination?

3 MR. O'SULLIVAN: Your Honours, we will proceed in this way:

4 first, counsel for Mr. Delic; second, counsel for

5 Mr. Mucic; third, counsel for Mr. Delalic; and, fourth,

6 counsel for Mr. Landzo

7 Cross-examination by MR. MORAN

8 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Okay, Mr. Moran. You may take the

9 witness.

10 MR. MORAN: May it please the court.

11 Good afternoon, sir.

12 A. Good afternoon.

13 Q. My name is Tom Moran and I represent Hazim Delic in this

14 case. I'm going to ask you a few questions.

15 Basically I'm just going to go over your statement. It

16 may be one or two things that you didn't talk about on

17 direct that I may ask you about, but basically I'm going

18 to go down my notes of what you testified to on direct

19 examination. Now most of my questions will probably

20 require a "yes" or "no" answer. If you can answer it

21 with a "yes" or "no", will you do that for me?

22 A. I will try.

23 Q. Sometimes, like all lawyers, I get tongue-tied and my

24 questions may be a little complicated or you may not

25 understand them, and if you don't understand one of my

Page 2531

1 questions, will you stop me and I will clarify it and

2 work with you so that you understand it. Can you do

3 that for me, sir?

4 A. Yes, I will.

5 Q. Okay. Fine. Thank you.

6 A. You're welcome.

7 Q. You were born in Konjic; is that right?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. On June 15th, 1971?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. You lived in Bradina basically your whole life; is that

12 fair?

13 A. Yes, yes.

14 Q. You were registered to vote in Bradina?

15 A. I am not aware of a voters' list in Bradina.

16 Q. You were registered to vote in the Konjic municipality,

17 though; is that fair enough?

18 A. What vote are you referring to?

19 Q. Just in general you were eligible to vote in elections

20 in Konjic, were you not? Let me give you an example.

21 You could have -- I am not asking whether you did vote

22 and I am not asking how you voted, if you did, because

23 that is your business and nobody else's, but there was a

24 referendum in March 1992. Do you remember that

25 referendum?

Page 2532

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. You could have voted in it if you wanted to, couldn't

3 you?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. As I recall, and stop me if I am wrong, because I am

6 going through my notes trying to find it, you testified

7 you were not a member of any kind of a military unit; is

8 that right?

9 A. No, I was not.

10 Q. Okay. In fact, one of the things that you told the

11 International Committee for the Red Cross was that you

12 were a civilian, not a prisoner of war; isn't that

13 right?

14 A. Civilian, yes.

15 Q. When the city of Bradina came under attack, the village,

16 that lasted, what, two days?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. And was there any defence put on by the people that

19 resided in the village?

20 A. No.

21 Q. So basically the attack was for two days. There was

22 shelling and nobody tried to enter the village; is that

23 what you are telling the Tribunal?

24 A. The village was big. They entered one of the hamlets

25 on the first day. It's called Suljina Strana, a

Page 2533

1 hamlet.

2 Q. But nobody attempted to defend the village in any way,

3 and yet it took the soldiers from the HVO and the TO two

4 days to take this village; is that right?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. When you were first arrested, that was on 27th May 1992;

7 is that right?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. There were a bunch of people there, weren't there?

10 A. Imprisoned people?

11 Q. No, people when you were arrested, at the scene of your

12 arrest in Bradina, when you were taken to the Mico

13 restaurant?

14 A. Yes, there was a group of people, about 50 people, who

15 were captured in front of the Mico cafe. I joined that

16 group later and they were from my neighbouring village.

17 Q. Your Honour, I am about set to mention a name and my

18 notes are not clear on whether that name is a protected

19 name or not. Can we go into private session for long

20 enough to say that name?

21 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Since we are in doubt, you had better

22 get into it.

23 MR. MORAN: Yes, your Honour. When in doubt, I would

24 rather ...

25 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Yes. Can we get into private

Page 2534

1 session?

2 (In closed session)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (In open session)

22 MR. MORAN: Your Honour, I am not going to mention the name

23 again. I may refer to him as that person, but the name

24 is not going to come out again. When you were

25 initially arrested and initially captured the soldiers

Page 2535

1 from the TO and the HVO beat everybody pretty severely,

2 did they not?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. In fact, there was a stop, was there not, in a tunnel or

5 some place on your way between Bradina and Celebici?

6 A. I don't remember.

7 Q. Okay. That's fine. By the way, "I don't remember" is

8 a fair answer if you don't remember. Let me ask you

9 about some of the conditions in Hangar 6. Do you

10 remember when you got there a situation where some

11 people had blankets and some people didn't have

12 blankets? Do you recall that?

13 A. I remember that at the moment when we arrived in the

14 hangar nobody had a blanket.

15 Q. But didn't some people get access to blankets shortly

16 afterwards?

17 A. I don't remember that.

18 Q. So you do not remember an incident where Mr. Delic had

19 the blankets cut up so as many people as possible could

20 get some part of a blanket? You don't recall that?

21 A. No.

22 Q. Okay. Let me jump ahead a second to the food

23 conditions. Do you know whether the food was cooked

24 inside the camp or whether it was brought in by somebody

25 else?

Page 2536

1 A. I don't know.

2 Q. Do you know whether your rations were any different from

3 that that the guards had?

4 A. We didn't have rations. We had just one ration.

5 Q. Yes, sir. Do you know whether what you ate was anything

6 different from what the guards ate?

7 A. Probably it was.

8 Q. But you do not know; isn't that right?

9 A. I think I do. If the guards got what we got, then they

10 really fed well, because we didn't get food. It wasn't

11 food. These were scraps.

12 Q. Let me jump forward to the meeting on August 12th 1992

13 with the International Committee of the Red Cross. You

14 remember that incident?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. When you talked to the representatives of the Red Cross

17 what guards were in Hangar 6 with you?

18 A. Not one of the guards could be present, because the Red

19 Cross didn't want the guards to be present when they

20 spoke to us.

21 Q. Okay. After the ICRC, the Red Cross representatives

22 left, I believe you testified that everybody in Hangar 6

23 was beaten; is that right?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. And, in fact, there was a group of ten guards that came

Page 2537

1 in and beat and kicked, what, 200 -- and there were

2 about 200-280 prisoners in there?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. And it lasted an hour?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. How long were you beaten in that incident? 15, 20

7 minutes, 5 minutes?

8 A. I don't remember.

9 Q. Okay. Fair enough. Let me jump forward to the death

10 of Zjelko Klimenta; okay?

11 A. Okay.

12 Q. As I recall your testimony here, and stop me if I am

13 wrong, you said he was taken out of the hangar and you

14 said:

15 "A shot was heard and Garo returned to the hangar

16 and said he was killed."

17 Is that what you testified to?

18 A. Yes, I did.

19 Q. You didn't hear that shot, did you?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. You did?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. On February 21st 1996 did you give a statement to a

24 representative of the Office of the Prosecutor?

25 A. I don't remember the date.

Page 2538

1 Q. You gave a statement to representatives of the Office of

2 the Prosecutor, didn't you?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. That statement was read to you in Serbian, was it not?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. And it was true and correct, was it not?

7 A. Most probably it was true. It need not mean that

8 everything could be there. I couldn't recall

9 everything at the time I was making that statement.

10 Q. Sure, and if you didn't recall something and it was left

11 out, that is one thing, but what you said in that

12 statement was true, was it not? What was written down

13 there was all true, was it not?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. In fact, you signed -- the statement you signed said

16 that the statement is true to the best of your knowledge

17 and recollection and that you were aware that it may be

18 used in a legal proceeding before this Tribunal. You

19 remember that, do you not?

20 A. Yes, but I didn't remember everything at the time.

21 Q. Sure, and I'm not saying that you did, but do you

22 remember saying in that statement:

23 "I believe ..."

24 -- having to do with Zjelko Klimenta's murder:

25 "I believe he was shot dead but today I cannot say

Page 2539

1 for sure that I heard any shot after Klimenta was taken

2 out"?

3 Do you remember saying that in your statement?

4 A. I do not recall.

5 Q. If I let you see a copy of your statement translated

6 into Serbian, would that refresh your memory, sir?

7 A. I don't think so.

8 Q. If I showed you a copy in English with your signature on

9 it, would that at least refresh your memory as to the

10 statement itself? Sir, would it be helpful to you if

11 I showed you your statement either in Serbian or in

12 English to recall making it and maybe refresh your

13 memory about what it said?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. It would help you?

16 A. Not very much.

17 Q. Your Honour, if the usher could just show these to

18 him. (Handed). One is a clean copy in English with

19 his signature on it and the other is a translation

20 I believe that was done by the Office of the Prosecutor

21 or by the Registry.

22 Take a look at those. Take your time and go

23 through them. In the Bosnian copy, the statement I am

24 asking you about is on page 3, by the way.

25 A. Yes, I have found it.

Page 2540

1 Q. Does it not say:

2 "The next day an unknown guard called Zjelko out

3 of the hangar. I believe he was shot dead but today

4 I cannot say for sure that I heard any shot after

5 Klimenta was taken out."

6 That's what it says, isn't it?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Which was it, sir? Did you hear a shot or didn't you

9 hear a shot?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. I know you either did or didn't hear a shot. Which is

12 it?

13 A. I cannot say again 100 per cent that I heard the shot,

14 but I saw Klimenta dead.

15 Q. Okay. So when you testified here earlier under oath

16 that you heard a shot or a shot -- that was not true,

17 was it?

18 A. I don't understand the question.

19 Q. Okay. Let me try it again. We all agreed a few

20 minutes ago that you testified here under oath that you

21 heard a shot and now you testify -- when you testified

22 to that, that was not true, was it?

23 A. It was true. I was frightened. I didn't have freedom

24 over there. My brain couldn't function.

25 Q. Sir, if you could excuse me just a second, sir. Your

Page 2541

1 brain could function when you met with the

2 representatives of the Office of the Prosecutor back on

3 February 21st 1996, couldn't it? They didn't threaten

4 you, did they? They didn't keep you in custody, did

5 they?

6 A. Yes, but I still have problems as a result of my

7 imprisonment. Even today my brain is not okay. After

8 all those beatings and mistreatment and the suffering I

9 am still not well.

10 Q. Sir, because of the suffering and this treatment, do you

11 have a problem telling what actually happened and what

12 actually didn't happen, remembering what occurred?

13 A. Of course I have problems, because this was a long time

14 ago. This was in 1992 and it's 1997 now.

15 Q. Well, sir, now let's -- okay. Let's try this again.

16 A few minutes ago you testified that you heard a shot.

17 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: I thought you have made the point.

18 MR. MORAN: Okay, your Honour.

19 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Let us see what happens.

20 MR. MORAN: I will go on to something else. If I have made

21 my point, no reason to continue beating on it.

22 After the shooting there was a guard, and

23 I believe his name was Padalovic. Do you know that

24 person?

25 A. Yes.

Page 2542

1 Q. He came running in the hangar right after Mr. Klimenta

2 was shot, didn't he?

3 A. Not Padalovic, but a prisoner Garo Kujundzic entered the

4 hangar holding his head with his arms. We asked him

5 "Garo, what happened?" He said Zeljko Klimenta was

6 killed.

7 Q. Sir, I thought we had agreed you would listen to my

8 questions and then answer the questions. Now, if I was

9 wrong on that agreement, can we have that agreement?

10 A. Yes.

11 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Repeat the question so that it will be

12 fresh in his mind.

13 MR. MORAN: Yes, sir. Did a guard named Padalovic come

14 into the hangar shortly after the shot that you didn't

15 hear?

16 A. No, he didn't come into the hangar.

17 Q. Okay. Fine. You testified on direct examination that

18 Mr. Delic was the deputy commander of the camp, didn't

19 you?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. That's because you saw the written order appointing him

22 deputy commander; isn't that right?

23 A. No.

24 Q. You saw some sort of a table of organisation showing

25 what everybody's job was in the camp; is that how you

Page 2543

1 knew?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. You saw a table of organisation of all the people in the

4 camp, where everybody was slotted into a job; is that

5 right?

6 A. No, I didn't see the table.

7 Q. Okay. So you didn't see a table of organisation of the

8 camp?

9 A. No.

10 Q. Okay.

11 A. No.

12 Q. So basically you are just guessing that Mr. Delic was the

13 deputy commander of the camp; is that not right?

14 A. I'm not guessing. It was known.

15 Q. And you testified on direct that the entire time in the

16 camp you saw him five or six times; is that not right?

17 A. Delic?

18 Q. Yes, Delic?

19 A. No.

20 Q. That is what you said. So you didn't see him every day

21 during your detention in Celebici, did you? I mean, you

22 were in Celebici, what, almost six months?

23 A. Six months, yes.

24 Q. And so you didn't -- that would be roughly 180 days, and

25 you saw him five or six times out of those 180 days; is

Page 2544

1 that right?

2 A. No. I saw him more times.

3 Q. Well, I thought you just said that -- I thought you just

4 testified on direct that you saw him five or six times

5 inside the camp?

6 A. Yes, but I saw him outside the camp. Within the

7 Building Number 6 I saw him five or six times and

8 outside I saw him more times.

9 Q. Okay. You saw him five or six times inside Hangar 6?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. So it was an unusual occurrence for Mr. Delic to enter

12 Hangar 6?

13 A. Rarely.

14 Q. I'm sorry. I didn't understand. It was the

15 interpreter. Was it "really" or "rarely"?


17 Q. Okay. Thank you very much.

18 Your Honour, if I can have just a second while I

19 go through my notes, I believe I'm about done.

20 You talked about the water supply on direct. You

21 said you got some water in bottles, not as much as you

22 wanted and sometimes you didn't get it for many days.

23 Were there -- do you recall whether somebody would ever

24 hose you all down inside Hangar 6, just bring in a hose

25 and ... did that ever occur?

Page 2545

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Okay. Who have you discussed your testimony with?

3 A. Where?

4 Q. Pardon me?

5 A. Where? The question is not clear.

6 Q. Okay. Let us start off with here in The Hague. Did

7 you discuss your testimony with anyone?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Who was that?

10 A. I don't recall the name. I've forgotten it.

11 Q. Is it that smiling gentleman over there with the

12 moustache?

13 A. Yes, yes. I have forgotten the name.

14 Q. My learned friend. Okay. Is he the only person in

15 The Hague that you have discussed your testimony with?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Before you came to The Hague who did you discuss your

18 testimony with?

19 A. I don't remember. I don't remember the names.

20 Q. Did you remember: were they representatives of the

21 Office of the Prosecutor or were they defence lawyers or

22 ...

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Which? Defence lawyers or officers --

25 A. Representatives of the Prosecutor.

Page 2546

1 Q. And that was after you gave your statement on February

2 21st 1996?

3 A. One more time they came after that.

4 Q. And did you sign another statement while they were there

5 that second time?

6 A. I didn't sign any statement. They just read out the

7 statement I had given the first time.

8 Q. And those are the -- by the way, did you have a chance

9 to correct that statement either time you talked to the

10 representatives of the Office of the Prosecutor?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. And when you talked to the Prosecutor before you

13 testified here, did he show you your statement again?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Okay. Did you look at any other papers in preparation

16 for your testimony here today, any other documents or

17 pictures or videotapes or anything like that?

18 A. No, no.

19 Q. Besides discussing your testimony with the Prosecutor

20 here and your testimony with the investigators from the

21 Office of the Prosecutor before you came here, have you

22 talked about your testimony with anybody else?

23 A. No.

24 Q. One last question and one last series of questions.

25 I think we are done then. At any time while you were

Page 2547

1 in Hangar 6 were there ever beds provided?

2 A. We didn't get beds. We got some kind of benches

3 towards the end of my stay there in the hangar.

4 Q. Were there mattresses on them?

5 A. I don't remember.

6 Q. Thank you very much, sir.

7 A. You are welcome.

8 Q. I pass the witness, your Honour.

9 A. You're welcome.

10 Cross-examination by MR. GREAVES

11 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Mr. Greaves, you may proceed with the

12 witness.

13 MR. GREAVES: Mr. Kuljanin, I have got just two matters that

14 I want to discuss with you this afternoon, please. You

15 have given evidence to this Tribunal today that on one

16 occasion when you were in the camp you went to an office

17 and spoke to Mr. Mucic, and Hazim Delic was present, and

18 you were interrogated about the question of sleeping

19 with Bosnian girls. Do you remember giving us that

20 evidence earlier on today?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. You clearly remember this incident of speaking with

23 Mr. Mucic, do you?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. You have already told their Honours this afternoon that

Page 2548

1 you recall being interviewed by and making a statement

2 to the Office of the Prosecutor in February of last

3 year; that is right, is it not?

4 A. Correct.

5 Q. Mr. Moran, who has just been asking you questions, went

6 through that process with you, did he not?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. And what you told the court was that what you put in

9 your statement was the truth to the best of your

10 knowledge and recollection; that is right, is it not?

11 A. Yes. As far as I could remember.

12 Q. Mr. Kuljanin, please refer to the statements, which

13 I think you have got beside you if you need to refresh

14 your memory, but would you like to tell the court,

15 please, why it was that in that statement that you made

16 to the Office of the Prosecutor you made no mention

17 whatever of that conversation?

18 A. I'm sorry. I do not understand the question.

19 Q. Would you like to explain to the court why in the

20 statement that you made to the Office of the Prosecutor,

21 which you say was the truth to the best of your

22 knowledge and belief, why did you not mention this

23 conversation in that statement, Mr. Kuljanin?

24 A. I forgot.

25 Q. Well, that being so, Mr. Kuljanin, would you like now to

Page 2549

1 tell the court, please, why it was in that statement you

2 said this:

3 "I never spoke with Mucic"?

4 A. Which sentence is that?

5 Q. Let me just draw your attention to it. Do you have the

6 Serbo-Croat version? I am sure that will be easier for

7 you to look at, Mr. Kuljanin. I do not want to be

8 unfair to you?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Would your Honour just give me a moment, please? . I

11 am struggling with the Serbo-Croat version.

12 Have you got the Serbo-Croat copy there,

13 Mr. Kuljanin?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Could you look, please -- I think it is going to be the

16 fourth page, please. I would like you to count down

17 until you get down to a paragraph which begins:

18 "Pavo Mucic ..."

19 Do you see that one? I just want you to read it

20 to yourself, please, for the moment so you can refresh

21 your memory. Do not tell us what is in it. Just read

22 it, please. Have you read that?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. And it says there, does it not, Mr. Kuljanin now that you

25 have refreshed your memory, "I never spoke with Mucic";

Page 2550

1 does it not?

2 A. Yes, but when I was giving this statement I was always

3 hurrying to go to work, so I was not able to always give

4 complete information all the time, so every time when

5 I was giving information I was in a hurry to get to

6 work, so I did not have enough time to think.

7 Q. What I suggest to you, Mr. Kuljanin, is this: it is not

8 in the statement, that conversation, and you said you

9 had never spoken with Mr. Mucic, because that

10 conversation simply never took place, did it?

11 A. It did, but I forgot to put it in that statement.

12 Q. So what you are saying now is it is not true effectively

13 when you say:

14 "I never spoke to Mr. Mucic."

15 Is that it?

16 A. It is true that I did speak to Mr. Mucic.

17 Q. So what you put in your statement, that is a complete

18 fabrication, is it?

19 MR. TURONE: Objection, your Honour. Asked and answered.

20 He gave an answer to this contradiction.

21 MR. GREAVES: I suspect the point is well made. I shall

22 move on. I want to ask you now one final question, Mr.

23 Kuljanin. When you speak of Mr. Mucic wearing uniform,

24 you saw him wearing green military style clothing.

25 That is right, is it not?

Page 2551

1 A. Camouflage, camouflage uniform.

2 Q. Camouflage, but he had no insignia of any kind, no

3 badges, no rank or anything like that, did he?

4 A. Maybe he did. I do not recall. I did not dare

5 look. I was ordered -- under orders to look down, not

6 sideways.

7 Q. So you cannot say whether or not he had any insignia of

8 any kind, can you?

9 A. I did not see. I'm not in a position to say. I did

10 not see.

11 Q. Thank you very much, Mr. Kuljanin. I have no further

12 questions for you?

13 A. You're welcome.

14 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Any other questions? Any other

15 defence counsel?

16 Cross-examination by MS. RESIDOVIC

17 MS. RESIDOVIC (in interpretation): Thank you, your

18 Honours.

19 Mr. Kuljanin, good day, good afternoon. I am

20 Edina Residovic, and I defend Mr. Zejnil Delalic. I'm

21 glad to meet you. Mr. Kuljanin, I will make a request

22 before I move on to the questions that I will ask of you

23 just to clarify one matter. When your introduction was

24 announced yesterday, your appearance, since before you

25 another witness by the name of Kuljanin was at the

Page 2552

1 stand, we are from the same region, so please could you

2 tell us whether in the Konjic and Jablanica areas in

3 Northern Herzegovina there are families with a large

4 number of members with the same name?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Such families like Kuljanin, Zuza, Zivak, Cecez,

7 Azinovic, Dzumhur, Delalic do exist among all ethnic

8 groups in that region; correct?

9 A. Correct.

10 Q. Very well. We clarified this matter before this Trial

11 Chamber; a number of witnesses bearing the same name

12 will appear. Thank you?

13 A. You're welcome.

14 Q. Mr. Kuljanin, before this Trial Chamber you gave a

15 statement under oath; is that correct?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. And you still want to speak the full truth?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Please, Mr. Kuljanin, is it correct that you lived

20 permanently in Bradina?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Is it also true that one year before these combat

23 operations that you refer to you became a member of the

24 SDS?

25 A. I do not remember.

Page 2553

1 Q. Mr. Kuljanin, let me ask this question in a more precise

2 manner. You were a member of the SDS; correct?

3 A. I don't recall. I really don't remember. It was a

4 long time ago in 1991.

5 Q. Then I will make a little digression. You answered to

6 my learned colleague, Mr. Moran, that you did not recall

7 certain things; is that correct?

8 A. Yes, that is correct.

9 Q. You also stated that your lack of memory is a result of

10 everything that you went through in this period of time?

11 A. Yes, consequences of the camp.

12 Q. Then it is true that on some events you can talk on the

13 basis of something else than your memory?

14 A. No. I am talking about it from my memory and what I

15 don't remember I will not talk about.

16 Q. Thank you.

17 A. You're welcome.

18 Q. But when you make different statements in different

19 statements that you give that is because of your lack of

20 memory?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. In your statement to the Prosecutor you stated that you

23 mostly helped your family in the agricultural work,

24 farming; is that correct?

25 A. Yes.

Page 2554

1 Q. You do not recall being a member of the SDS?

2 A. I do not remember. I may have been but I don't recall

3 really.

4 Q. Can you remember that you had no function in the SDS?

5 A. No, I had no function in the SDS.

6 Q. Thank you.

7 A. You're welcome.

8 Q. You did know Rajko Dordic, your neighbour?

9 A. Yes, he was my neighbour.

10 Q. And you remember in that period of time of April and May

11 you did some work, office work, in the office of Rajko

12 Dordic?

13 A. No, that is not true. I don't even know of an office

14 of Rajko Dordic. He was a captain of the JNA and he

15 worked in Konjic. I was never in his office.

16 Q. Thank you.

17 A. You're welcome.

18 Q. Thank you for this information. Do you know that Rajko

19 Dordic came to his birthplace in May and remained there?

20 A. Yes, I did see him there.

21 Q. Do you know that Rajko Dordic organised the defence of

22 Bradina?

23 A. No, there was no defence of Bradina. It did not exist.

24 Q. Mr. Kuljanin, I would like to go back to your previous

25 testimony. You stated that you gave a statement to the

Page 2555

1 Office of the Prosecutor in February 1996; is that

2 correct?

3 A. Correct.

4 Q. When my learned colleague posed a question to you, you

5 said that you also spoke to the representatives of the

6 Prosecutor when you arrived in The Hague and read the

7 statement that was given to you; is that correct?

8 A. Correct.

9 Q. Please could you confirm for me that when my learned

10 colleague, Mr. Greaves, asked you a question you said

11 that you gave the statements always in a hurry, that you

12 could not reflect well, because you were in a hurry to

13 go to work every time?

14 A. Yes, every time.

15 Q. In other words, Mr. Kuljanin, is it true that you gave

16 multiple statements?

17 A. No.

18 Q. Mr. Kuljanin, please answer whether every time you gave

19 statements you gave it in a hurry because you went to

20 work?

21 A. Yes, in a hurry. That's true.

22 Q. Please if you look at your -- page 1 of your statement

23 in Serbo-Croatian language, the date stated there was

24 February 21 1996; correct?

25 A. Yes.

Page 2556

1 Q. That means that you were there only one -- you went

2 there only on one day?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. That is different from the answer to the question by the

5 esteemed colleague, Mr. Greaves, that every time you went

6 to give a statement you did it in a hurry?

7 A. Yes. A statement was -- I gave the statement on one

8 occasion and the second time when it was read back to

9 me, and the first time was when it was -- when I had

10 given it.

11 Q. Thank you for clarifying this point for me.

12 A. You're welcome.

13 Q. Mr. Kuljanin, you also testified that you personally did

14 not have any position in any military formation in

15 Bradina?

16 A. Correct.

17 Q. Do you know where in Bradina is the Albanija hamlet?

18 A. That is my hamlet.

19 Q. Is it true that this hamlet is at the very entrance of

20 Bradina?

21 A. No, that is not true.

22 Q. Is it true that you were seen in Albanija on the

23 barricades that were erected there?

24 A. Albanija is in the middle of Bradina, not in the

25 beginning or the end of it. That's where I lived.

Page 2557

1 That's where my house was.

2 Q. So now we know the location of this hamlet Albanija.

3 Could you then answer the question that you have been

4 seen several times on the barricades in Albanija, which

5 you helped erect?

6 A. There was no barricade there and I did not help put it

7 up, and no one in my village did it.

8 Q. Mr. Kuljanin, do you know Drasko Koprivica?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Do you know that Drasko Koprivica was wounded in the

11 course of these combat operations in Bradina?

12 A. He was not wounded during the operations. He was

13 wounded when he tried to escape, when he tried to move

14 to the other territory.

15 Q. Mr. Kuljanin, is it true that he surrendered together

16 with you?

17 A. Yes, because we tried to escape, and Drasko was then

18 wounded and then we returned to the village and he went

19 home and I stayed with my father, with my mother and my

20 sister. That was in the morning of 26th at 6 o'clock.

21 Q. Thank you.

22 A. You're welcome.

23 Q. In fact, it was Rajko Dordic who asked you to return to

24 the village with Rajko Koprivica; is that correct?

25 A. Yes.

Page 2558

1 Q. In fact, together with the group of Rajko Dordic you

2 tried to escape from Bradina to the Serb-held territory?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Is it true that you said nothing about this fact during

5 your questioning in February of 1996?

6 A. I do not remember.

7 Q. However, now you do remember that at the request of

8 Rajko Dordic you returned to Bradina together with

9 Drasko Koprivica?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Thank you?

12 A. Not to Bradina but to my village.

13 Q. To your village where on 27th, as you stated, you

14 surrendered to the Territorial Defence?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Mr. Kuljanin, your brother, Milenko, continued with this

17 group, which was moving towards the territory under

18 control of the Serbian forces?

19 A. My brother was not in the group with me. When I was

20 returning to Bradina I met my brother, who was part of

21 the group that was trying to break through towards the

22 Serbian territory.

23 Q. Thank you.

24 A. You're welcome.

25 Q. Mr. Kuljanin, there were several barricades erected

Page 2559

1 ramps in Bradina?

2 A. I do not remember that.

3 Q. I understand that since you have problems with your

4 memory?

5 A. Yes, many problems.

6 Q. I understand that you do not recall certain facts. Do

7 you remember that immediately before these combat

8 operations and the war you were seen -- you were

9 frequently seen in a uniform of the former JNA?

10 A. Who? Me?

11 Q. Yes.

12 A. No.

13 Q. Thank you.

14 A. You're welcome.

15 Q. Since you lived in Konjic, that is in Bradina, you know

16 that in Bosnia-Herzegovina a state of immediate war

17 threat was declared?

18 A. I don't, because the last month before this we did not

19 have any electricity.

20 Q. If there is -- if the immediate war threat was -- had

21 been proclaimed, you would have known?

22 A. I did not listen to the radio.

23 Q. In any event it is true that you did not join the

24 Territorial Defence or the reserve police in Konjic?

25 A. Nobody had asked me to.

Page 2560

1 Q. In other words, you were not aware of the official call

2 by the authorities in Bosnia-Herzegovina?

3 A. No.

4 Q. Mr. Kuljanin, you explained how you were brought to

5 Celebici?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. I would like you to confirm that when you were climbing

8 onto the truck, as you stated, you were severely beaten;

9 is that correct?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. And that was twice?

12 A. That was twice.

13 Q. Also other people who were transferred -- transported in

14 this truck were also severely beaten; correct?

15 A. Correct.

16 Q. In your truck no women or children were loaded; is that

17 correct?

18 A. Correct. They were separated in front of the Mico's

19 cafe.

20 Q. Thank you.

21 A. You're welcome.

22 Q. When you arrived in Celebici, as you testified, you

23 recognised Mario Matic, who was your school friend in

24 Sarajevo; correct?

25 A. Correct.

Page 2561

1 Q. Mario Matic is a Muslim?

2 A. No, a Croat.

3 Q. Did he have a uniform on?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Did he have insignia?

6 A. I don't remember.

7 Q. Mr. Kuljanin, you also stated that in Celebici after your

8 arrival there you gave a statement to the members of a

9 commission?

10 A. I don't know what commission it was. It wasn't a

11 commission. Two investigators.

12 Q. One of them you recognised as Miroslav Stenek; correct?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. This commission behaved correctly towards you?

15 A. Well, so-so, not bad and not well.

16 Q. No force was applied to you in the period of this hour

17 while you were in interrogated?

18 A. No, but I had to say everything that they wanted me to

19 do. I had to say "yes" even though things were not

20 that way. I had to say "yes".

21 Q. Yes. I will come to that question, but there was no

22 physical force applied to you during this interview;

23 correct?

24 A. No.

25 Q. You were sitting in --

Page 2562

1 A. No, I was standing.

2 Q. You were standing in front of this commission. Thank

3 you. You just told me that you had to state that

4 everything they were asking of you was true?

5 A. Yes. Everything they wanted. They could, you

6 understand. I had to say the way they wanted, not the

7 way I did.

8 Q. In fact, because you had to, as you are testifying

9 before this court, you said that you were issued two

10 pieces of weapon; is that correct?

11 A. No, that is not correct.

12 Q. They asked you about weapons?

13 A. Yes. I had to say that I had weapons because I knew

14 what was coming.

15 Q. So you said that -- so you confirmed that you had

16 weapons?

17 A. I did not confirm. I said that I did have them.

18 Q. They did not suggest it to you beforehand. They just

19 asked you whether you had arms, weapons?

20 A. I didn't understand the question.

21 Q. Did they tell you that you had weapons, or when they

22 asked you if you had weapons, what was your answer?

23 A. I said "yes".

24 Q. Did you say on that occasion that the automatic rifle

25 you received from Stevan Gligorovic?

Page 2563

1 A. No.

2 Q. Did you state then on the second occasion you received a

3 semi-automatic rifle from Dragan Vujicic?

4 A. No.

5 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: I think, Ms Residovic, we will break

6 here for tomorrow morning. You can continue your

7 cross-examination then.

8 Now before we close today, I think the motion

9 which we have for tomorrow, because of some other

10 reasons, we are shifting it to Wednesday, the 14th of

11 this month.

12 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honour, there are motions that

13 I mentioned at the beginning of the session today that

14 we would ask that the court take up prior to the next

15 two prosecution witnesses. I am wondering if the court

16 has had an opportunity to discuss that.

17 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: We are examining our schedule and

18 seeing how we can bring them in.

19 MR. ACKERMAN: Thank you, your Honour.

20 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: You have made your request.


22 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: So we will examine it.

23 MR. ACKERMAN: Okay. Thank you.

24 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: So until tomorrow morning at 10.00.

25 (5.35 pm)

Page 2564

1 (Hearing adjourned until 10.00 tomorrow morning)

2 --ooOoo--