Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 4167

1 Monday, 16th June 1997

2 (10.00 am)

3 (In open session)

4 Mr. Novica Dordic (continued)

5 Examined by Ms. McHenry

6 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Good morning, ladies and gentlemen.

7 Can we have the witness for today?

8 (Witness entered court)

9 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Please remind the witness he is still

10 on his oath.

11 THE REGISTRAR: Mr. Dordic, may I remind you that you are

12 still on your oath?

13 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: May we have the appearances please?

14 MS. McHENRY: Good morning, your Honours. I am Teresa

15 McHenry. I am here with lead counsel, Mr. Eric Ostberg,

16 co-counsel, Mr. Giuliano Turone, and our case manager, Ms.

17 Elles van Dusschoten.

18 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Can we have the Defence appearances?

19 MS. RESIDOVIC (in interpretation): Good morning, your

20 Honours. I am Edina Residovic, defence counsel for

21 Mr. Zejnil Delalic. Defending Mr. Delalic with me is

22 Professor Eugene O'Sullivan, Professor from Canada.

23 MR. GREAVES: Good morning, your Honour. I appear on

24 behalf of Zdravko Mucic in this case. My leading

25 counsel is out of town on business in morning. I

Page 4168

1 anticipate his return later in the week.

2 MR. KARABDIC (in interpretation): Good morning, your

3 Honours. I am Salih Karabdic, representing Mr. Hazim

4 Delic. With me in the team is Mr. Thomas Moran,

5 attorney from Houston, Texas.

6 MR. ACKERMAN: Good morning, your Honours. I am John

7 Ackerman, appearing on behalf of Esad Landzo. With me

8 on his team is Cynthia McMurrey.

9 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: The Prosecution is still continuing

10 with its examination-in-chief.

11 MS. McHENRY: Thank you, your Honours.

12 Good morning, Mr. Dordic.

13 A. (in interpretation): Good morning.

14 Q. Now, sir, last Thursday during your testimony, which was

15 not completed, you had indicated that some time in July

16 you believed you learned that Mr. Mucic was the Commander

17 of the camp. While you were at the camp, did you

18 receive any information concerning who was above

19 Mr. Mucic regarding the camp?

20 A. It was said in the camp that the Commander of the army

21 --

22 MR. O'SULLIVAN: Objection, your Honour. The witness is

23 not speaking from personal knowledge.

24 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Let him answer the question. I don't

25 know what his personal knowledge is. Let him answer.

Page 4169

1 MS. McHENRY: I'm sorry. Did we have the translation? Was

2 the translation even finished? I'm sorry, sir. Would

3 you please continue with your answer?

4 A. As far as I heard, the Commander of the operational

5 group who was above Pavo Mucic was Zejnil Delalic.

6 MR. O'SULLIVAN: Objection, your Honour. Twice now he has

7 said he has heard, and it was said. He is not speaking

8 from personal knowledge.

9 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: I don't know what you call personal

10 knowledge. That is what I mean. Except you ask him

11 further how he got to know ... Personal knowledge can be

12 from hearing, from reading, not only from communications

13 to him. Except he should inform the panel which made

14 the appointment ...

15 MS. McHENRY: I will clarify the matter. Sir, can you

16 please tell us how you heard that Mr. Delalic was the

17 higher up person for the camp?

18 A. All the information that we learned about people who

19 were in charge of the camp was mostly through people who

20 contacted with the guards, like Zaro Mrkajic. Mostly

21 he would tell us who was the superior. There was no

22 way for us to check, because we had no contact with

23 anyone in the camp administration.

24 MR. O'SULLIVAN: Your Honour, I renew the objection. He is

25 saying that Zaro Mrkajic was telling people.

Page 4170

1 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Thank you very much. I think it is

2 overruled.

3 MS. McHENRY: Did you ever hear the guards say who the boss

4 was or who was in charge?

5 A. When we were starved for about 90 hours I think Esad

6 Matic, who was a guard there, said that when we got food

7 it was that Mr. Delalic had returned and that it was

8 thanks to him that we got the food, so obviously he was

9 somebody who was above the camp administration. He had

10 been away somewhere and then he returned.

11 Q. Besides using his name, did he refer to Mr. Delalic or

12 his position in any way other than using his name?

13 A. I think he said the boss had come. The word "the boss"

14 had been used.

15 Q. Did you yourself, sir, ever see Mr. Zejnil Delalic while

16 you were at the camp?

17 A. Yes, on one occasion. When I would just come and I was

18 still bringing the food from the administration building

19 I met him as he was walking out of the building. He

20 didn't say anything to me. He just went out and he was

21 wearing a military uniform.

22 Q. Out of what building, sir?

23 A. From the administration building, where the

24 administration was housed.

25 Q. Okay. How did you know who Mr. Zejnil Delalic was at

Page 4171

1 the time you saw him?

2 A. I knew him in town. I had seen him before as one of

3 the well off people in town, and that is how I knew him.

4 Q. Did you know what business he had in town? Had you seen

5 him at his business?

6 A. Yes, yes.

7 Q. What business had you seen him at?

8 A. Mr. Delalic, I saw him in his disco, where I used to go

9 often.

10 Q. Sir, am I correct that you finished last week testifying

11 about the severe beatings you yourself received during

12 the time you stayed in the tunnel?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Can you tell me, sir, was there a detainee named Zjelko

15 Milosevic, who was also kept in the tunnel?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Can you please tell us what, if anything, you observed

18 concerning his treatment?

19 A. Zjelko Milosevic was brought a few days after me, three

20 or four days, and from his very arrival he was subjected

21 to special interrogations, mainly by Mr. Delic and Esad

22 Landzo. He was taken out frequently outside building

23 Number 9 --

24 MS. McMURREY: Your Honour, I am going to object. He has

25 not proven he saw any of these beatings. He is

Page 4172

1 testifying from no personal knowledge. None of these

2 people are going to be around to satisfy the right to

3 confront the witnesses against you. If he saw --

4 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: We have not even heard what he is

5 saying. We have not even heard what he is concluding.

6 MS. McMURREY: One of his statements --

7 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: You are assuming he is saying that.

8 At least I should hear what he is saying before I rule

9 on what you are objecting to.

10 MS. McMURREY: Okay. Well, many times it is too late once

11 he has offered --

12 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: It is not too late. It will only be

13 part of it.

14 MS. McHENRY: So the witness' testimony is not unnecessarily

15 interrupted, it is the case that I will in these

16 circumstances try to clarify it, and if your Honours

17 believe it is inappropriate, they can then strike it,

18 but I believe it is impossible in this kind of situation

19 to get it all out beforehand. Okay.

20 Sir, would you please -- excuse me while I find

21 his response. Sir, would you please continue with what

22 you observed concerning the treatment of Mr. Zjelko

23 Milosevic?

24 A. As I just said, he was taken out frequently outside

25 building Number 9, and he was asked various questions,

Page 4173

1 like was he a sniper. That was the main question.

2 MS. McMURREY: Your Honour, I'm going to have to renew my

3 objection. He says he was taken outside of Tunnel 9.

4 This man is testifying to what happened outside

5 Tunnel 9. She has not laid the foundation that he has

6 personal knowledge about what happened outside Tunnel 9.

7 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Let me hear what he is saying.

8 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

9 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: I have told you I have to hear what he

10 is saying before I rule. I wouldn't rule before we

11 have the testimony.

12 MS. McHENRY: Sir, would you please continue with what you

13 observed concerning the treatment of Zjelko Milosevic?

14 A. As I was saying, Zjelko Milosevic was taken out in front

15 of Tunnel Number 9. That means just in front of the

16 door of Tunnel Number 9, so you can hear very well and

17 see what's happening outside, if we were allowed to

18 look. When there were no guards inside we could. He

19 was asked to confess that he was a sniper, that he had

20 killed Muslims, that he had fired at their positions.

21 He rejected all this and, of course, as soon as he said

22 that he hadn't done something, he would be beaten. In

23 his case I remember a piece of cable was used,

24 electrical cable, which was about 2 cms thick and it had

25 a steel wire inside this cable, and every time he was

Page 4174

1 taken out, he was beaten very severely, and later led

2 back in. Then he told us that a long time ago a Muslim

3 had courted his mother. I think his mother was a widow

4 or something like that. Apparently he had hit that

5 Muslim and this was before the war. He said that that

6 had been the reason that they were accusing him of

7 having been a sniper. Otherwise there was no other

8 reason. This was repeated maybe for seven or eight

9 days.

10 Q. May I interrupt and just ask you some questions about

11 that, sir? Who exactly -- who would you see present

12 when Mr. Milosevic was called out during these seven or

13 eight occasions? Who would you yourself be able to see

14 at the time he was called out?

15 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: You are asking who did he see, not who

16 he would see. Who did he see.

17 MS. McHENRY: Correct. Sir, who did you see present of the

18 guards or the people in the camp when Mr. Milosevic was

19 called out? In other words, who called him out and who

20 else from the camp could you yourself see?

21 A. It was mostly and almost every time Hazim Delic and Esad

22 Landzo were present.

23 JUDGE KARIBI-WHITE: Now who called him out.

24 MS. McHENRY: Who called him out? Can you just describe

25 what you would see and hear at the time Mr. Milosevic was

Page 4175

1 called out, where one person was, who the other one was,

2 who spoke? Can you just describe this in more detail,

3 please?

4 A. The doors would open. Hazim Delic would be at the door

5 and he would call out Zjelko Milosevic. He goes out

6 and then the interrogation begins, actually beatings.

7 On one occasion a TV station came. They were black

8 people, probably from one of the Arab countries. They

9 took Milosevic out; Rajko Dordic, Desimir Mrkajic as

10 well. They placed them before the cameras, before the

11 TV cameras and they asked that they confess that they

12 had been snipers, that they had killed Muslims. Landzo

13 and Delic were beating -- would beat them when the

14 cameras were off and then the people from the TV team

15 would join in the beatings as well.

16 MS. McMURREY: I am going to object. He has not said he

17 could see what was going on outside of Tunnel 9. He

18 testified Mr. Delic called them out and then he goes into

19 the story of what happened with the Arab film crew.

20 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Actually you were not listening

21 properly. He said he could see and hear from where he

22 was inside. He said that.

23 MS. McMURREY: Okay. So he said he could see and hear.

24 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Yes. You have your opportunity to

25 test that testimony later.

Page 4176

1 MS. McHENRY: Sir, at the times -- going back for a minute,

2 at the times that Mr. Delic would call Mr. Milosevic out,

3 could you yourself see Mr. Landzo present on those

4 occasions and, if so, where would he be?

5 A. Let me tell you I could see him, because all that was

6 happening in front of Number 9 -- let me make it

7 clearer. It's, for instance, the distance between me

8 and the interpreters over there. So you can imagine

9 that the door was over there where the glass is.

10 Q. During the actual beatings that you have referred to,

11 was the door always closed or was it always open, or

12 sometimes it was open and sometimes closed?

13 A. The door was mostly open, unless they banged shut, and

14 they were sort of half closed, but they were mostly

15 open, except that night when Zjelko Milosevic did not

16 return to building Number 9.

17 Q. Before we get to that, the times when you yourself would

18 be able to see what was happening outside the door, what

19 instruments, if any, did you see the people have? In

20 other words, you have testified before that Mr. Delic and

21 Mr. Landzo participated in this and that there was a

22 cable. Can you state exactly who it was who had a

23 cable, and if anyone else had another instrument? Could

24 you just please us exactly what you yourself could see

25 through the door when Mr. Milosevic was being beaten?

Page 4177

1 A. At one point I saw when Hazim came. He was carrying

2 this cable. Zenga mostly carried a baseball bat.

3 Q. Zenga carried the baseball bat and Delic carried the

4 cable. Is that your testimony?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. On these occasions could you actually hear what was

7 being asked of Mr. Milosevic, the questions that were

8 being asked?

9 A. I told you the distance was roughly as far as the

10 interpreters are. So when there is a loud discussion

11 going on, of course you hear very well, especially as it

12 is a tunnel which has an echo, so you can hear voices

13 well inside.

14 Q. Okay. Whose voices could you recognise?

15 A. The three of them: Milosevic, Zenga and Delic

16 exclusively.

17 Q. Okay. You indicated, sir, that on one night

18 Mr. Milosevic did not come back. Could you please tell

19 this court what you yourself observed or heard that

20 night?

21 A. You see, let me say first that that day, the day before

22 this night, Hazim Delic told him that that night at

23 1.00 am he would go to the toilet. I beg your pardon

24 for using the word to piss.

25 MR. MORAN: Objection, your Honour. This is

Page 4178

1 non-responsive. He is answering a different question

2 from the one that Ms McHenry asked.

3 MS. McHENRY: May I respond?

4 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Yes, you can respond.

5 MS. McHENRY: I asked the witness what happened and he is

6 providing information which is directly relevant to

7 explaining what happened. I believe the witness should

8 be allowed to complete his answer, and then if it is

9 irrelevant or unresponsive, then it can be struck. In

10 these situations where we do not have a jury and the

11 witnesses are not trained in exactly the specific order

12 that the defence attorneys would like, I think it's

13 inappropriate for the witness to constantly be

14 interrupted. I believe your Honours can understand

15 when the witness gives an answer and explains it, and if

16 it is irrelevant your Honours can disregard it or even

17 strike it, if necessary.

18 MR. MORAN: Along those lines, the question was something

19 about what happened that night. The answer was what

20 happened the day before. Secondly, I think we are all

21 familiar with non-jury trials in our jurisdiction,.

22 Even in non-jury trials we still have things called

23 Rules of Evidence. Just because there is not a jury

24 here does not mean we throw away the Rules of Evidence.

25 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: If his answer does not lead to what

Page 4179

1 happens the next day, then that might be irrelevant, but

2 if it properly connects what happens, then I don't think

3 it is irrelevant. Let me hear his answer and then I'll

4 know what conclusions as to draw.

5 MS. McHENRY: Sir, would you please continue with your

6 answer and if it is relevant to explaining what happened

7 that night, please explain what happened the night

8 before?

9 A. And indeed, as Hazim had said, that night -- I don't

10 know what time it was -- his voice could be heard

11 outside building Number 9 and he called out Zjelko

12 Milosevic. Zjelko went out. The door was closed

13 behind him. We heard talk, but this time it was a bit

14 further away from the entrance, so we couldn't

15 understand as well as the previous days when it was just

16 outside the door, but we heard the discussion, later

17 beatings and finally a bullet. That night Zjelko

18 Milosevic did not return to building Number 9.

19 In the morning -- I think it was very early -- we

20 were taken out in groups of five or six to the toilet or

21 rather the hole, and when I went out right next to the

22 hole on the northern side of the hole was Zjelko

23 Milosevic's corpse covered with some kind of a rag or

24 tee-shirt over his forehead with a large blood stain.

25 I can't exactly say what it was but it must have been a

Page 4180

1 head injury.

2 Q. When you say it was a corpse, how was it that you were

3 able to determine that it was a corpse? Was

4 Mr. Milosevic moving? How long did you observe his body

5 for? Can you just please tell us how it was that you

6 concluded that Mr. Milosevic -- that this was a corpse

7 rather than a live body?

8 A. You see, he didn't return that night. If he had

9 returned, we would have known that he was alive. But

10 he was lying there. We were going out in groups of

11 five or six and there were 30 or so of us inside. All

12 the people that went out, they saw the same scene. He

13 was lying there immobile, with a large blood stain,

14 which means that he was dead.

15 Q. Can you just, sir, using the model, show us where it was

16 that you saw the body of Mr. Milosevic? Show us where

17 the hole was that you used for the --

18 MS. McMURREY: Excuse me. I just want to interrupt at this

19 point because I believe the whole line of questioning is

20 irrelevant. Mr. Milosevic is not in the indictment.

21 It is not a charge included against any of the

22 defendants back here and so this whole line of

23 questioning is irrelevant.

24 MS. McHENRY: I'm looking at counts 3 and 4 of the

25 indictment.

Page 4181

1 MS. McMURREY: I am looking at the list. It has several

2 names but Mr. Milosevic is not on there.

3 MS. McHENRY: Maybe I can assist counsel. Counts 3 and 4

4 of the indictment are for the killing of Zjelko

5 Milosevic.

6 MS. McMURREY: Your Honours, if I might just have one

7 moment, I have a list summarised here.

8 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Will you please allow him to give his

9 evidence?

10 MS. McHENRY: Sir, would you please show us where it was

11 that this hole was and where the body of Mr. Milosevic

12 was?

13 A. The hole was just here, somewhere in the middle of

14 Tunnel Number 9. You pass this small concrete wall and

15 it was just here. The body was right next to the hole.

16 Q. Thank you.

17 MS. McMURREY: I'm sorry, your Honours. I do want to offer

18 my apologies. Ms McHenry is correct and I am incorrect

19 at this point. Please accept my apology.

20 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Thank you very much. Carry on.

21 MS. McHENRY: Sir, was there also a detainee named Slavko

22 Susic kept in Tunnel Number 9?

23 A. Yes. That man was brought later too to Number 9. His

24 very arrival to building Number 9 was a terrible scene

25 in itself. I remember well that Hazim Delic was

Page 4182

1 escorting him when he was thrown in. He was wearing a

2 short-sleeved tee-shirt and it was already torn on his

3 back from the beatings he had received upon his arrest

4 and his bringing to the camp. His back was already

5 black and blue. He came in. Very few of us knew

6 him. He looked out of his mind. At first he couldn't

7 speak. He didn't utter a word until he recognised some

8 people inside. He said that he was brought from his

9 home, from his garden, that he was working in the garden

10 when they came to pick him up. They beat him. They

11 loaded him on a car and then they brought him to

12 building Number 9.

13 Q. Can you please tell us what you yourself observed,

14 either by seeing or by hearing yourself, concerning the

15 treatment of Mr. Susic once he was brought into Tunnel

16 Number 9?

17 A. Not long after that Hazim Delic appeared and there were

18 some other guards there. Esad Matic, I think, he was

19 mostly standing in front of building Number 9. Hazim

20 accused him of owning a radio station at home, that he

21 had guided shells to the town, and he was given the same

22 treatment as Zjelko Milosevic. He was taken out,

23 beaten and brought back.

24 Q. Sir, can I please ask. Can you please tell us exactly

25 in more detail what it was that you yourself saw or

Page 4183

1 heard concerning his treatment? I want you to say who

2 was involved, what you yourself could see, what you

3 yourself could hear while it was happening. Can you

4 just please give us some more detail?

5 A. They were saying he was taken out and he was asked to

6 confess that he had this radio transmitter. At one

7 point he said he would show them where the radio

8 transmitter was.

9 Q. Who would take him out?

10 A. Hazim Delic and Esad Landzo mostly.

11 Q. Would you yourself see them at the time that Mr. Susic

12 was taken out, see Mr. Delic and Mr. Landzo?

13 A. Yes. As I said before, I could see everything at the

14 door. This was the distance, as I have just explained,

15 to everything was happening just outside the door.

16 Q. Then can you please tell us after he was taken out

17 specifically at this time what you yourself could see or

18 hear?

19 A. He was taken out and taken somewhere. He apparently

20 told them that he would show them where this thing that

21 they were insisting on was that he wanted -- that they

22 wanted him to confess. They took him there. They

23 didn't find anything. They beat him up again and

24 brought him back. After some time he could hardly come

25 in. He was staggering. The doors closed behind

Page 4184

1 him. I went after him to hold him up, so that he

2 wouldn't fall. Towards the very end of the tunnel near

3 the flat area, where Number 9 ended, he was standing

4 next to the wall. Zaro Mrkajic was next to him. He

5 couldn't breathe. He asked for water and I went to get

6 him some water, but somebody else had already brought a

7 glass of water. But he slid down the wall and started

8 to die. We laid him down on the floor, tried to give

9 him artificial respiration but there was no way that we

10 could help him. He was dead.

11 Q. What happened to Mr. Susic's body after he died in the

12 tunnel?

13 A. That corpse stayed there all night in building Number 9

14 and some time the next day, about 11 o'clock, he was

15 taken out.

16 Q. Talking about the day that he was taken out and then

17 brought back in and he died soon after being brought in,

18 can you please tell us exactly what you yourself saw or

19 heard with respect to that day? Who called him out and

20 what, if anything, could you see or hear about what

21 happened to him? You may have already repeated in

22 before, but I'm not sure it is clear, so I'm asking you

23 to go logically step by step. Tell us exactly who you

24 saw, what you saw and what you heard happen. I'm now

25 referring to the day that Mr. Susic died?

Page 4185

1 MS. McMURREY: As far as who took him out, that is asked and

2 answered. From that point on, I would like for him to

3 continue at that point, please. Thank you.

4 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Will you kindly ask him?

5 A. Yes. He was taken out. As I said, he was beaten for a

6 very long time. That time the door was closed after

7 him immediately. He was just thrown in and there was

8 no further comment and shortly after that he died.

9 Q. Can you tell us, if you can, who was it who took him

10 out, if you heard anything after he was taken out, if

11 you could recognise any voices, and who it was who

12 brought him back in? If you know any of those things,

13 can you please explain it?

14 MS. McMURREY: Your Honour, who took him out has been asked

15 and answered.

16 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Let him give evidence the way he is

17 asked the questions. You don't have to give evidence

18 for the Prosecution. He can answer the question.

19 A. I said that again, but I will repeat it. Hazim Delic

20 and Esad Landzo took him out. The beating was in front

21 of the building, as I said. He was thrown back in. I

22 don't know exactly. They were probably there. The

23 doors -- the door closed behind him. He was more or

24 less pushed in.

25 MS. McHENRY: Okay. Then at the time when the door was

Page 4186

1 shut and he was being beaten outside, could you hear

2 anything about what was going on and, if so, could you

3 recognise anyone's voices? Could you just tell us what

4 it was, if anything, that you could hear after he was

5 brought outside and the door was closed?

6 A. Mostly the beatings could be heard and the questions.

7 "Confess. Why don't you confess?" , and that sort of

8 thing. "You were there. Where were you?" That's

9 all.

10 Q. Were you able to recognise the voices of any of the

11 persons asking him questions?

12 A. I think it's sufficient that I saw them take him out.

13 Q. If you couldn't recognise the voices, then you can just

14 say: "I couldn't recognise the voices". That's no

15 problem. I am just asking you if you could or could

16 not recognise the voices of the persons asking him

17 questions?

18 A. They were the voices of the people who had taken him

19 out.

20 Q. So would that be the voices of Mr. Delic and Mr. Landzo?

21 A. Esad Landzo and ... yes.

22 Q. On the prior occasions before the day when Mr. Susic

23 actually died, can you tell us if you yourself saw any

24 of the beatings and, if so, what you yourself observed

25 of the beatings. Who was involved? Was there an

Page 4187

1 instrument? Could you please describe that and exactly

2 what you saw?

3 A. All the beatings more or less were reduced to this

4 procedure. The prisoner was taken in front of building

5 Number 9. Then he was turned to face the concrete.

6 He had to raise his arms and they would beat the

7 prisoner, depending on the object they had, a baseball

8 bat, a boot, a fist. More or less the beatings were

9 all the same.

10 Q. Do you specifically remember any of the beatings that

11 you saw of Mr. Susic?

12 A. I said that each of his beatings in front of Number 9

13 I could see, I could observe.

14 Q. Okay. Could you observe anyone actually beating him

15 and, if so, who did you yourself actually see beating

16 Mr. Susic in the days leading up to his death?

17 A. Mostly the two of them.

18 Q. Okay. Thank you. During the time you were at the

19 camp, sir, other than the first fifteen days when you

20 brought bread to the tunnel, did you ever have any other

21 jobs or duties either inside or outside the camp?

22 A. For the most part not in building Number 9.

23 Q. Okay. Throughout your entire time at the camp were you

24 ever -- did you ever do any jobs or duties, not just

25 limited to the time you were at Tunnel 9?

Page 4188

1 A. I mostly worked when I was transferred to Building

2 Number 6, but that was digging some canals within the

3 compound itself, the trenches and things like that, but

4 one day they loaded us -- I think it was a van and we

5 may have been seven or eight. They drove us to Konjic,

6 to the Bukala section, to Pavo Mucic's house, and there

7 we were clearing a structure. I don't know if a shell

8 had fallen on it or something, but that's what we did.

9 We cleared up that structure. Pavo Mucic was there

10 personally. He was at home asleep when we arrived.

11 Q. Did you have any conversations with any member of

12 Mr. Mucic's family at that time? You can just say "yes"

13 or "no" at this time if you had a conversation.

14 MR. GREAVES: With respect, I would invite my learned friend

15 to identify what the relevance of conversations with

16 Mr. Mucic's family might possibly be.

17 MS. McHENRY: Your Honour, I would be happy to. There was

18 of a conversation with Mr. Mucic's father about

19 Mr. Mucic's role with Celebici, and I believe that's

20 directly relevant, since his father, I think, would be

21 in a position to know. I think at that time it could

22 be considered reliable.

23 Sir, did you have a conversation with any member

24 of Mr. Mucic's family?

25 A. Yes. I believe a man and I later found out was Pavo's

Page 4189

1 father, was very tolerant towards us. He even gave us

2 some apples, some fruit to eat while we were there and

3 talked to us the whole time. He said that he didn't

4 feel good about what Zdravko -- I think that was his

5 name -- was doing there and that it was the war. The

6 whole war had no meaning.

7 Q. Sir, was there a time when the International Red Cross

8 came to the camp?

9 A. Yes, that was on 12th August 1992. The door opened and

10 women came and some men came and we didn't know what it

11 was. I think there was a woman -- she was a delegate

12 of this committee -- walked to the middle of this

13 structure and she just fainted from the stench. We

14 helped her out and the rest of the delegation continued

15 its work in front of the structure. That means the

16 steps of building Number 9, because it was too foul and

17 there was too much of a stench inside for them to be

18 able to work in there. So they registered all of us

19 and gave us these cards, ID cards, the ICRC cards.

20 Even at that time I was not sure that they were the

21 delegates of the International Red Cross, since a lot of

22 time had passed since we were imprisoned and nobody had

23 shown up until then. So we were very reserved, so we

24 only talked very little, only the basic things regarding

25 food and drinks, just the basic conditions of how we

Page 4190

1 were treated there. Then they finished their job and

2 then they probably went to Building Number 6, and a

3 little while later Delic showed up and this man from

4 Foca, whose name I don't know, and started beating just

5 about everybody. They missed just a few. Mostly a

6 boot in the chest. After that he ordered us all to get

7 up and walk out. We came outside and right in front of

8 building Number 9 we sat down into this canal. In

9 fact, we were ordered to sit down into the canal, to

10 face the wall and put our hands behind our neck at that

11 time Hazim summoned all the guards. I have even heard

12 him call a certain Sok, who was cook there. Then the

13 beatings started, mostly kicks. They must have been 13

14 or 14, these guards who were kicking people with their

15 hands behind their heads, and some of them had boots,

16 some of them had sneakers, and they kept kicking the

17 whole column. It went on for a very long time.

18 I think at first I counted 17 or 18 blows. After that

19 for a while I think I was not quite conscious, but then

20 I felt a very strong kick, which almost threw me into

21 the canal, and then I was ordered to get up and put my

22 hands behind my neck again, and suddenly an order was

23 given -- in fact, somebody called out from this little

24 hill that was behind these two buildings, 6 and 9, and

25 somebody said to get up quickly and to return to

Page 4191

1 building Number 9. We rose as quickly as we could and

2 then at that time I saw from that hill that was between

3 these two buildings Osman Dedic was calling out.

4 I think he was there observing while the delegation was

5 in building Number 6 to inform the others to stop the

6 beatings so that these people would not see what was

7 going on.

8 Q. Okay. Sir, at some time after the Red Cross had come,

9 were you moved out of Tunnel Number 9?

10 A. Yes. Yes. I was the last one who left building

11 Number 9. It was the group of 15 and I was in that

12 last group.

13 Q. Can you tell us approximately when this was or about how

14 long after the Red Cross visit it was that you were

15 moved out of Tunnel Number 9?

16 A. I think it was late September, maybe even early

17 October. I don't know.

18 Q. Okay. Where was it that you were moved to?

19 A. I was moved to building Number 6, the large hangar where

20 the rest of the prisoners were.

21 Q. Okay. Sir, using the model and the pointer can you

22 just show us where Building Number 6 is and the

23 surrounding areas, if you know anything about that; for

24 instance, where the guards were?

25 A. (indicating) Here. We were brought from Number 9 in

Page 4192

1 front of the administration building, which was E, and

2 we were brought over here to object Number 6. There

3 was a guard post right here where this hole is. The

4 other one was across there and there was a machinegun

5 placed there. Two soldiers were patrolling here

6 (indicating).

7 Q. On the hill where you showed the guard post was, was

8 there any other kind of structure or anything there?

9 A. Yes. There was a dug-out there when I came there and

10 when I was covering this guard post there I saw it. I

11 don't know what its function was. It was an

12 underground room. I don't know what it was for but it

13 was there.

14 Q. Thank you. Sir, when you went to Hangar 6, were there

15 other prisoners already in Hangar Number 6?

16 A. Yes. There were mostly people from Bradina and people

17 from the Konjic municipality.

18 Q. Do you know who Vaso Dordic is?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Was he one of the persons you saw in Hangar Number 6?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Are you related to Mr. Vaso Dordic in any way?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. How are you related?

25 A. I think that his and my father are first cousins or

Page 4193

1 maybe they are third or fourth generation removed. We

2 are not that close.

3 Q. Do you know anything about what kind of schooling or

4 what kind of work Mr. Dordic did before the war?

5 A. Vaso worked in Sarajevo in Alipasino Polje. That is a

6 section of Sarajevo. He worked for the Alhos

7 Company. Later on I think he moved and worked with the

8 railroads as a fireman.

9 Q. Do you yourself know exactly what kind of schooling he

10 had and what he completed and, if so, please tell us.

11 A. Both of us and his brother were poor students. Neither

12 completed their elementary school, or at least they did

13 not complete it in the regular way.

14 Q. Okay. After the visit of the Red Cross, was there any

15 change in the treatment the prisoners received at the

16 camp?

17 A. There were no more murders. There were still beatings,

18 maybe less so and less visible, but there were still

19 beatings.

20 Q. Were you yourself ever mistreated after the Red Cross

21 came other than what you just told us about the beating

22 immediately after the Red Cross came? During the rest

23 of the time at the camp were you ever mistreated?

24 A. Yes. Yes. When I came to Building Number 6, the very

25 first night after it got dark the door opened and I was

Page 4194

1 called out together with another I think five or six

2 prisoners. There was a list there and somebody read it

3 out. We were taken out. Immediately after I was

4 taken out an order came to stand against a wall that was

5 really a tin wall. Then the beatings started. I

6 think there was a plank, a square plank, and then

7 automatic rifles. They were cursing me and at some

8 point they threw me back in. I barely managed to get to

9 the place. In fact, I was helped by other prisoners.

10 I managed to get to the place where I was sitting and

11 this was repeated in the second and third and fourth

12 nights. It was the same list. In other words,

13 somebody must have given them a list of who they were

14 going to beat, and the guards were the same: Zajko

15 Camdzic, Osman Dedic, Kemal Mr.ndzic and Kemal

16 Muderizovic. Those were the people I remember. They

17 were like silhouettes in the dark. The next day they

18 created -- they sort of staged a scene as if the

19 prisoner ahead of me had his throat cut. They ordered

20 him to lie down and around his neck area they must have

21 poured some liquid, because you couldn't see in the

22 dark. So I thought it was blood. Then they beat

23 me. I was lying down. They were putting a knife to

24 my neck. They were telling me that they were going to

25 cut my throat. That knife was a knife that was a

Page 4195

1 bayonet of an M-48 rifle, so it was very blunt and it

2 would have taken a long time for them to cut my throat

3 with it. These beatings went on for four nights. It

4 was the same guards and it was the same list. On the

5 fourth night they told me to tell me -- when they told

6 me to get in, I remember the Camdzic guard because he

7 always looked the same. He had his sleeves rolled up

8 and he had a characteristic hair cut, so I could

9 recognise him in the dark even as a silhouette. When

10 I was passing him to get back into building Number 6 and

11 I passed him, he was near me and he put a barrel -- he

12 hit me with the barrel of his gun between the ribs and I

13 fell from that blow, and I lost consciousness. I had a

14 feeling that the barrel just went through me.

15 Q. Were there any other occasions, sir, during the time you

16 were at Celebici that you were mistreated?

17 A. Yes. One day Hazim Delic walked into the Building

18 Number 6 together with Zajko Camdzic. There were some

19 other guards with them. They were not alone, the two

20 of them. Vukasin Mrkajic was designated to be the head

21 of them, and in charge of keeping the order among the

22 prisoners in Building Number 6. I really didn't know

23 what was going on. Hazim was saying: "Who is making

24 some cards?" I don't know. Some people who were there

25 before in Number 6 must have got a hold of some paper

Page 4196

1 and there were some pencils there. So they must have

2 made some makeshift playing cards. So Hazim asked who

3 made those cards and nobody said and then he told us all

4 to turn around, took a shovel and hit everyone in the

5 buttocks with this -- it's like a shovel that is used in

6 a military unit to load the different bulk things. We

7 were about 170 and so he could not hit everyone, so he

8 gave the shovel to Zajko at one point, and then after he

9 took some rest he asked Vukasin who is walking around

10 while he is not there and who is getting up.

11 Vukasin at first did not want to say who it was.

12 Then he ordered him to stand next to the door. There

13 is a small door inside the bigger door at the entrance

14 and ordered him to take his pants off. He did so.

15 Hazim took the shovel and started beating him on his

16 bare buttocks until blood started coming. Then he kept

17 repeating: "Okay. Say who was it, who was it".

18 Vukasin said he will say because he couldn't stand this

19 any longer. Hazim stopped beating him and ordered him

20 to walk around naked from the waist down as he was and

21 point to people who did this. Vukasin pointed to me,

22 among others. Hazim told me to turn around and he

23 kicked me with his boot in the rib cage and, as I said,

24 my right side hurt a lot because of these beatings

25 before and from the barrel of Camdzic's rifle. Then I

Page 4197

1 fell down from pain and Hazim asked for a shovel.

2 Somebody brought it to him and he beat me with the

3 shovel. As he hit me in the buttocks, the metal part

4 fell off. Then he continued to beat me with the handle

5 of the shovel until it broke apart, because it was some

6 old wood. I think it was very old, probably a remain

7 from the army times. When it broke off, he threw the

8 remaining part and he hit me over the back and cursed my

9 Cetnik mother and ordered me to get up. Then I got up

10 and joined the line-up of other prisoners.

11 Q. Other than this incident that you have just described

12 where you were beaten with the shovel, while you were in

13 Hangar 6 were you ever mistreated using any other kind

14 of instrument or device?

15 A. During my stay in all or just while I was in Building

16 Number 6?

17 Q. During your stay in all.

18 A. I don't know whether I described already in my testimony

19 that Hazim Delic also used a device for horses. I

20 don't know exactly what it's used for, but it produces

21 strong electrical shocks. This was more of a toy for

22 him, but when used on a prisoner it inflicts a small

23 burn on the spot where it touches the body like the burn

24 from a cigarette, but the electricity charge is very

25 high. It is not lethal, it cannot kill, but it

Page 4198

1 produces a strong shock, and people who don't know

2 become very frightened. They feel that they will not

3 be able to survive. It is about 10,000 volts, I think,

4 the charge.

5 Q. Sir, was this electrical device ever used against you?

6 A. Yes, on one occasion when Hazim took us out for a walk

7 in front of the scales, the kind of island on the road,

8 I was selected from the group and he put me on a stone

9 block on this island.

10 Q. Can you please show us on the model the area you are

11 referring to?

12 A. (Indicating) It's here, this island, as I call it, right

13 here, but this block was here, but it's not marked on

14 this model. There were three or four of these blocks.

15 Q. Can you just describe these blocks, about how wide and

16 how high were they?

17 A. This sort of island is raised above the level of the

18 ground, about 15 cms, and on this area this block was

19 about 30 by 30, not larger than that, 30 by 30 cms.

20 Q. Would you please go on with what happened to you after

21 you were put on this 15 -- I'm sorry -- 30 cms stone

22 block?

23 A. Yes. I sat on that block and I begged him not to do

24 that to me, and actually I am a TV mechanic, so I know

25 the electronics of this device. That is my trade.

Page 4199

1 For the benefit of the other people I wasn't afraid so

2 much, but I made a scene intentionally and begged him

3 for mercy. He burned me on the chest.

4 Q. Was your shirt on or off?

5 A. No, I was naked up to the waist. This was the time of

6 our walk and when I fell off this block, he caught me by

7 the leg and the device was kept on it for a long time

8 and the burn was quite big. It was later infected, and

9 the scar is still visible.

10 Q. Okay. Thank you. Sir, am I correct that you have

11 described the incidents where you yourself were the

12 victim of severe mistreatment, that you have finished

13 describing all the incidents where you yourself were the

14 victim of severe mistreatment?

15 A. Mostly in camp Number 6.

16 Q. The entire time you were at Celebici?

17 A. Yes, yes. With the exception of minor beatings and

18 slaps, that is more or less it.

19 Q. Sir, how long did you remain in Celebici?

20 A. I was the one but last group to be brought to Musala.

21 I think it was somewhere around November that we were

22 transferred.

23 Q. Okay. You said when you left you went to Musala.

24 What is Musala and how long did you remain there?

25 A. Musala is a former sports centre in Konjic. It was

Page 4200

1 also a camp in which people were detained. I stayed in

2 Musala until 4th October 1994.

3 Q. During the time that you were at Celebici and then the

4 time that you were Musala, were you ever charged with

5 any offences, formally charged or brought to trial or

6 anything like that that you are aware of?

7 A. I personally was not.

8 Q. Okay. I'm almost finished. Just to go back for a

9 couple of minutes, sir, this electrical device that you

10 testified that Mr. Delic used on you, did you ever

11 observe whether or not this device was used on other

12 prisoners?

13 A. Yes. On Vukasin Mrkajic. Actually most of the

14 prisoners in building Number 9.

15 Q. Okay. The court's indulgence just for one minute.

16 Thank you, your Honours. Direct examination is

17 concluded.

18 JUDGE JAN: Ms McHenry, in which count does his name occur

19 specifically?

20 MS. McHENRY: 42 and 43.

21 JUDGE JAN: Thank you. 42 and 43. Thank you.

22 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Any cross-examinations and the order

23 in which you have agreed to take it.

24 MR. O'SULLIVAN: Yes, your Honours. We will proceed in the

25 following way. First, counsel for Mr. Delic; second,

Page 4201

1 counsel for Mr. Mucic; third, counsel for Mr. Landzo; and,

2 fourth, counsel for Mr. Delalic.

3 Cross-examination by Mr. Moran

4 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Mr. Moran, you can cross-examine.

5 MR. MORAN: Yes, your Honour. Your Honour, can you give me

6 a second to get situated? Thank you.

7 May it please the court, sir, my name is

8 Tom Moran. I'm an attorney and I represent Hazim

9 Delic. I'm going to ask you some questions. Some of

10 the questions are going to require just a "yes" or "no"

11 answer. Could you just give me a "yes" or "no" to

12 those. Do you think you could do that?

13 A. If I'm able to, I will. If an explanation is

14 necessary, I will provide an explanation.

15 Q. Well, sir, if I ask a question that calls for just a

16 "yes" or a "no" -- let me give you an example. A

17 little while ago Ms McHenry asked you a question. "Were

18 you some place" was the question. According to the

19 transcript it took about two and a half pages for you to

20 say whether or not you were there. I would like to ask

21 you, if it's something like that, if you could just

22 answer "yes" or "no". If an explanation is required,

23 you can give it, or if Ms McHenry thinks I am being

24 unfair to you, she can come back on re-examination and

25 straighten it out. Can you do that for me, just answer

Page 4202

1 the question that's asked? Can you do that, sir? I'm

2 sorry, sir. I didn't hear your answer.

3 A. Very well.

4 Q. Also, sir, sometimes I get a little tongue-tied and it

5 is sometimes my questions aren't as clear as they can

6 be. If I do that and you don't understand a question

7 could you stop and ask me to rephrase it so you do

8 understand it, so we can all make sure I'm being fair

9 touch. Can you do that?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. One last thing. You've been nodding your head a couple

12 of times, "yes" or "no". There is a woman up at the

13 front of the courtroom and there is another woman over

14 there who are called court reporters. They have to

15 write down everything you and I say. They can't write

16 down a nod. If you can actually answer out it might go

17 a little quicker. Will you agree to do that?

18 A. I will and I hope I have answered all questions put to

19 me so far.

20 Q. Okay. That's --

21 A. I don't remember skipping any question.

22 Q. I don't think you did. Let me go over a couple of

23 things with you. Okay? Let's talk about Bradina

24 first. As I understand it, there was a pretty major

25 battle in Bradina, wasn't there?

Page 4203

1 A. There was no battle.

2 Q. There was no battle? Well --

3 A. There was a great attack but a battle is something

4 else. A battle and a great hullabaloo is something

5 else. One could hear a lot of noise from Bradina like

6 battle but that was the shelling. I apologise.

7 Q. For instance you had a weapon?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. What kind of weapon did you have?

10 A. An automatic rifle of Yugoslav make.

11 Q. So you had a machine gun?

12 A. No, an automatic rifle.

13 Q. Okay. It was just -- okay. You had an automatic

14 rifle. Where did you get it?

15 A. I said that I got it from a relative, from a cousin.

16 Q. Is it common for people to have automatic rifles in

17 Yugoslavia, the former Yugoslavia?

18 A. No, sir, it's not common.

19 Q. So did your cousin have a whole lot of those that he was

20 handing out, or was that the only one he had, or what?

21 A. Let me tell you, I can't answer this question with "yes"

22 or "no" so please allow me to explain.

23 Q. Sure. Did he have a lot of them he was handing out or

24 did he have just a few or what?

25 A. He gave me one, and how many he had I really don't know.

Page 4204

1 Q. Do you know where he got that weapon?

2 A. I think at the beginning of my testimony I explained

3 this. Everyone got weapons as best they could. They

4 found some way to get them.

5 Q. That weapon you had was a military weapon, wasn't it?

6 A. Probably.

7 Q. Pardon me, sir? You said "probably"? Is that what you

8 said?

9 A. Yes, probably, because in the pre-war Yugoslavia only

10 the army and the police had such weapons.

11 Q. And did a whole lot of folks in Bradina have weapons

12 similar to yours?

13 A. It depends. No.

14 Q. What do you mean "it depends", sir?

15 A. Many people had their own personal weapons, hunting

16 weapons. People had bought them before the war. They

17 had purchased them.

18 Q. A lot of people had M-48 rifles too, didn't they?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. That's a military weapon, isn't it?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. By the way, did you ever do your national service?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. So you had some military training?

25 A. Yes.

Page 4205

1 Q. In fact, you participated in setting up some trench

2 lines in Bradina, didn't you?

3 A. Let me tell you, when you look over the hill and you see

4 how many people and what heavy arms concentration is

5 being formed, it is normal that you try to defend

6 yourself.

7 Q. In fact, there were about 6,500 Muslim soldiers

8 attacking Bradina, weren't there?

9 A. That is a figure I learned of later in prison.

10 Q. And there were about 350 of you defending, weren't

11 there?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. And you had a lot of trenches?

14 A. I don't know. In the area where I was there was about

15 ten -- there were about ten of them.

16 Q. And you managed to hold off these 6,500 soldiers for

17 about two days; isn't that right?

18 A. I think that they were not psychologically prepared to

19 enter Bradina for us to hold them off. 350 compared to

20 6,500 is hardly a number that could resist for such a

21 long time.

22 Q. Well, that's what you said in your statement that you

23 gave to the Office of the Prosecutor back on 23rd and

24 24th January 1996, isn't it? Didn't you say:

25 "We did, however, manage to resist for 48 hours"?

Page 4206

1 A. I don't know how I said it then. I am telling you that

2 in the part of the front where I was there were no

3 operations. The attack was concentrated on that one

4 hill. The centre of the attack was the hill. The

5 rest was mere intimidation of the people who were

6 defending Bradina.

7 Q. Let me step back for a second. Let's talk about that

8 statement you gave to the Office of the Prosecutor on

9 23rd and 24th January 1996. Let's just talk about the

10 way the statement was given; okay? I'm not talking

11 about the contents, just how it was given. Can we do

12 that?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Okay. Now isn't it true that there were two people

15 there, a Bart d'Hooge, who was a man, an investigator,

16 who probably spoke in either English or Flemish, and a

17 translator, who spoke to you in Serbian; isn't that

18 right?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. The way it would occur would be that Mr. d'Hooge would

21 say something -- sir, I notice you are looking at your

22 watch. Do you need a break? If you need a break, I

23 think we may be able to arrange it, if you're tired or

24 something?

25 A. No, it's not necessary.

Page 4207

1 Q. Okay. That's fine. Anyhow, the way it would work

2 would be Mr. d'Hooge would ask a question and it would be

3 translated to you in Serbian; isn't that right?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. And then you would give your answer in Serbian and it

6 would be translated back into whatever language

7 Mr. d'Hooge was using; right?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. And then the answer would be typed in English on a

10 typewriter of some kind or a computer of some kind;

11 right?

12 A. Yes. Yes.

13 Q. And when it was all over, at the end of the statement,

14 giving the statement, it was all typed up in English and

15 the translator read it to you in Serbian, translated it

16 to you; isn't that the way it worked?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. And then you signed the English copy; right?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Did they give you a copy of your statement to keep?

21 A. No.

22 Q. So the next time you saw your statement was when?

23 A. In Belgrade. I can't remember the date exactly.

24 Q. Who showed it to you in Belgrade?

25 A. I can't remember the name exactly, but somebody from the

Page 4208

1 Prosecution or appointed by the Prosecution, who asked

2 me whether there was anything I needed to correct.

3 Q. Would that be a man named McLeod? Does that sound

4 familiar, McLeod, Alistair McLeod, a man from Scotland?

5 A. I think it was him, yes.

6 Q. Besides Mr. d'Hooge and Mr. McLeod, who have you talked to

7 about your testimony here today?

8 A. With Mr.s McHenry. I apologise for the pronunciation of

9 her name.

10 Q. Sir, I promise you, you pronounce her name better than I

11 could pronounce most names from the former Yugoslavia,

12 so don't feel bad about that.

13 When did you talk to her about your testimony here

14 today?

15 A. During my stay here in the Hague. We didn't really

16 talk about it. We just had the statement and I had the

17 statement in front of me, and we talked about the way

18 things would happen in the courtroom.

19 Q. She went over your statement with you?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Okay. That's fine. Let's get back to the battle of

22 Bradina. Who was the Commander of the people that were

23 defending the city, the village?

24 A. I said it was mostly the people who organised

25 themselves, but, as we say, in every herd there must be

Page 4209

1 a leader, and so it was in this case, too, and it was

2 Rajko Dordic.

3 Q. What kind of uniforms did you wear?

4 A. Whatever we had. Civilian clothes, jeans, shoes, a

5 jacket, whatever we had. No-one had a military

6 uniform.

7 Q. You didn't have any armbands or anything like that?

8 A. No.

9 Q. Okay. Now at some point during the battle for Bradina

10 you fled with some other people, didn't you?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. You were all armed when you fled?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. By the way, what eventually happened to that automatic

15 weapon that you had?

16 A. I gave it to some people, mostly civilians in the

17 village of Ljuta near Kalinovic. They were Muslims.

18 Q. Those were the people that arrested you; right?

19 A. They didn't arrest us. They just asked us to

20 surrender, to come down, and offered transportation to

21 Kalinovic.

22 Q. Eventually after you came down and turned yourself in,

23 you found yourself in the custody of the members of the

24 HOS, didn't you?

25 A. Let me tell you, they promised that they would transport

Page 4210

1 us to Kalinovic. They didn't do that. They said that

2 they didn't because it was already dark and it wasn't

3 safe to go along that road. There could be engagements

4 between Serb and Muslim forces. So they took us back

5 to the village. Then some people with HOS insignia

6 appeared, two men I remember well. One had HVO on his

7 sleeve and the other had HOS on his sleeve.

8 Q. Eventually you ended up in the custody of people from

9 HOS; right?

10 A. I've just told you I don't know whose competence it

11 was. I saw two people wearing these uniforms, one HOS

12 and the other HVO. The others were mostly in

13 camouflage uniforms. They didn't have any visible

14 insignia.

15 Q. And --

16 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Mr. Moran, I think we'll stop and have

17 a break at this stage.

18 MR. MORAN: Thank you, your Honour.

19 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: We'll come back at 12 o'clock.

20 (11.30 am)

21 (Short break)

22 MS. RESIDOVIC (in interpretation): Your Honour, may I

23 address you before we continue with the

24 cross-examination?

25 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Yes, you can. Mr. Moran, do you

Page 4211

1 permit us to --

2 MR. MORAN: Your Honour, I have no problem with her

3 speaking. I'm afraid to say "no".

4 MS. RESIDOVIC (in interpretation): Your Honour, during the

5 break the Prosecution informed us on the possible but

6 not final list of witnesses who night come after the

7 videolink. In view of our own schedule and the need

8 for us to prepare for certain witnesses we would ask, if

9 possible, for the Prosecution to give us first the

10 definitive list of witnesses during the day and also the

11 Prosecution is informing us that it may call up some

12 Austrian policemen as the first witnesses. We would

13 like to know the names and ranks of those policemen,

14 which the Defence will have to prepare for. If we are

15 working all day today, I don't think we will have the

16 opportunity to put this request to you later. Thank

17 you.

18 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Have you made these requests to the

19 Prosecution?

20 MS. RESIDOVIC (in interpretation): Your Honours,

21 I submitted this request at a meeting last Thursday.

22 We have just this moment received this list. So I'm

23 asking in your presence if the Prosecution could confirm

24 that list during the day.

25 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: I am asking whether the further

Page 4212

1 request which you addressed to the Trial Chamber has also

2 been made to the Prosecution in view of the lists they

3 gave to you?

4 MS. RESIDOVIC: Your Honours, I have not, because this

5 occurred just a moment before your entry, so I took

6 advantage of the opportunity to make this request just

7 before the cross-examination. I apologise if I should

8 have done that before, but I couldn't have done it

9 before because I only just received the list. Thank

10 you.

11 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: This is an arrangement which you can

12 make not necessarily through the Trial Chamber. I'm

13 sure they'll give you the list you want. Thank you

14 very much. I'm sure the Prosecution will have a

15 reaction to that. You will be willing to give.

16 MR. OSTBERG: Of course, your Honour.

17 MS. McHENRY: Of course. We don't know necessarily the

18 list of every single Austrian police officer, but from

19 the testimony we can give them the list of the ones that

20 came out in testimony last week. So we can give them

21 that list also.

22 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Thank you very much. Let's have the

23 witness. Mr. Moran, the witness is open to you.

24 MR. MORAN: Thank you, your Honour.

25 (Witness re-enters court)

Page 4213

1 MR. MORAN: May it please the court, good afternoon, sir.

2 Let's continue --

3 A. Good day, sir.

4 Q. Let's continue with where we left off. After you ended

5 up in the custody of the HOS and the HVO you were taken

6 with a whole bunch of people --

7 MS. McHENRY: I object to that. I don't believe that is

8 the -- an HOS and HVO person were there but he wasn't

9 sure whose custody they were in. So I object to that

10 as a misstatement of the record.

11 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Frankly if you left him, he could have

12 answered the question as to his own understanding.

13 MR. MORAN: Sir, let us try it this way. When you were

14 taken into custody there were some people with HVO

15 insignia on their uniforms and HOS insignia on their

16 uniforms; right?

17 A. They brought us to a school. I didn't say it was

18 detention. They didn't mistreat us or anything. They

19 just took us there. I think I explained that properly

20 at the beginning of my testimony.

21 Q. Yes, sir, and you arrived at school some time on

22 30th May?

23 A. Yes. Yes.

24 Q. Were you free to leave?

25 A. No. I didn't know actually where to go. I found

Page 4214

1 myself in a strange place. I later learned it was the

2 village of Ljuta, near Kalinovic.

3 Q. So if you weren't free to leave I think we can agree you

4 were probably being detained, were you not?

5 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: He said he didn't know whether he was

6 free because he did not know the place. It was a

7 strange place.

8 MR. MORAN: Yes, your Honour. Were you free to leave?

9 Could you have left if you wanted to, whether it was a

10 strange place or not? Could you have just packed up and

11 left?

12 A. I don't know how those people would have reacted.

13 Q. Okay. When you were at the school someone came in and

14 started firing a machinegun; right?

15 A. Yes. Yes. An automatic rifle, not a machinegun.

16 There's a difference between the two.

17 Q. Yes, sir. So if you would have said a machinegun in

18 your written statement, you meant an automatic rifle;

19 right?

20 A. I don't think I said that. When I said an automatic

21 rifle, it's an automatic rifle. Maybe it was not

22 translated well.

23 Q. Yes, sir, I'm sure that can happen. At that point that

24 man ordered you all to lie down and he started beating

25 you; right?

Page 4215

1 A. Yes, and that was when those two men appeared with those

2 insignia. They weren't there when we entered the

3 building, the school.

4 Q. And they were members of the HOS; right?

5 A. Yes. These two men, and the third person was a

6 civilian, the one who was firing into the air.

7 Q. And you got there at 10 o'clock in the morning and you

8 left at 3 o'clock the next morning, and you were beaten

9 all the time you were there; right?

10 A. No, no, no, not 10 o'clock in the morning. In the

11 evening. It was already dark. On 30th May when we

12 were brought to the school it was already dark.

13 Q. So if it says in the statement that you gave to the

14 Office of the Prosecutor on 23rd and 24th January 1996:

15 "We arrived there at 10.00 am and remained there

16 until 3.00 am and we were beaten all the time", that

17 wouldn't be right, would it?

18 A. It's not correct. What is correct is that we were

19 brought there towards night-time. They didn't take us

20 to Kalinovic because it was dark -- I said that -- when

21 we surrendered our weapons. So it couldn't have been

22 the morning.

23 Q. So that part of your statement is incorrect, your

24 written statement, either mistranslated or something

25 like that; right? Is that right?

Page 4216

1 A. Yes. The beating started around 10 in the evening,

2 9.30, 10.00 in the evening, and this went on until 2.00,

3 2.30 in the morning, the next day. It all started in

4 the evening.

5 Q. So you were beaten for about five hours at that school;

6 right?

7 A. Yes, yes.

8 Q. And was it before or after the beatings that they tied

9 your hands with the wire?

10 A. After the beatings.

11 Q. And then they loaded you on a truck and took you to

12 Mount Igman to the Hotel Famos; right?

13 A. No. We went on foot for a long time first to the

14 village of Sabici and then to Mount Igman, I think.

15 Q. Okay. You were put on a truck to go to Mount Igman;

16 right?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. That's where Dragan Vujicic was shot on the truck;

19 right?

20 A. Yes. After the Famos hotel, after Mount Igman, when we

21 were taken in the direction of Konjic.

22 Q. Okay. That was a guard who was in the truck with you

23 that did the shooting; right?

24 A. Yes, who was sitting on the side of the truck behind my

25 back.

Page 4217

1 Q. Are you familiar with what an accidental discharge of a

2 weapon?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. When you did your national service, you had training in

5 the use of firearms, didn't you?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Did that shooting appear to you, based on your training

8 and experience, to be an accidental discharge or a

9 deliberate killing?

10 A. Let me tell you. The track was going on a dirt road,

11 which was full of holes. Personally I think that from

12 the bumping the rifle went off. I don't know the

13 reason, because it was happening just behind my back.

14 Q. Okay. When you got to Konjic, you met a man named

15 Jasmin Guska, didn't you?

16 A. No, we didn't meet him. He was next to the truck.

17 All these people, Sefik Niksic, Diksa, Miro Stenek and

18 many other guards, the policemen, were there.

19 Q. While you were there in Konjic those people beat you,

20 didn't they?

21 A. Those guards, but the leaders of the SUP, they did not

22 personally.

23 Q. They just stood around and watched; right?

24 A. Yes, yes.

25 Q. You were taken with about 22 or 23 other people from

Page 4218

1 Konjic to Celebici then; right?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Okay. When you got there, you were put against a

4 wall. By the way, who was guarding you on the way from

5 Konjic to Celebici? Was it any of these four

6 defendants, for instance?

7 A. No. No. On the road, no.

8 Q. When you got to Celebici, those guards put you up

9 against the wall. The people who had brought you from

10 Konjic put you up against the wall and beat you; right?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. That's that wall that's just inside the gate on the

13 model; isn't that correct, that concrete wall?

14 A. No. We were lined up along building number C, if I see

15 well. It was later known as the dispensary. I can

16 show you.

17 Q. Yes, I would appreciate that.

18 A. It's this wall here, not here as you have suggested

19 (indicating).

20 Q. So it is the wall on Building Number 22, the building

21 that later became the dispensary; is that right?

22 A. Yes, something like that.

23 Q. Did you know my client before the war?

24 A. I apologise. I don't know who is your client.

25 Q. Hazim Delic.

Page 4219

1 A. No, but I heard from a friend of mine that Hazim Delic

2 was his supervisor, so I knew of him.

3 Q. Okay. Do you know my middle name -- excuse me -- my

4 father's name?

5 A. Sorry. I didn't understand the question.

6 Q. Do you know my father's name?

7 A. Your father?

8 Q. Yes. You've got no reason to, would you?

9 A. No.

10 Q. Who told you my client's father's name?

11 A. People in the camp.

12 Q. How come -- remember giving a statement to an

13 investigating magistrate in Belgrade on October 17th,

14 1994, a man named Simic, S-I-M-I-C?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. And you remember identifying my client in that statement

17 as one of the people who was a guard at Celebici?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. You never used my client's father's name anywhere in

20 that statement, did you?

21 A. Let me explain. That statement was given I think about

22 fifteen days after I was discharged from prison, if I

23 understood the date you mentioned well, when the

24 statement was made, and you must understand that at the

25 time I had become free after more than 800 days. So

Page 4220

1 that neither physically nor mentally could I remember

2 all the details or all the experiences that I had in the

3 camp.

4 Q. But you remembered my client's father's name when you

5 gave your statement to the Office of the Prosecutor in

6 January 1996; right?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. And, in fact, Hazim Delic, son of Ibro, is the only

9 person in your entire statement those father's name you

10 give; isn't that right?

11 A. I told you, one of the detainees, this friend of mine

12 who had worked with Hazim Delic for I don't know how

13 long, he knows him very well. He knew everything about

14 him. So other people in the camp learn very soon.

15 Q. Again my question was: in the statement you gave to the

16 Office of the Prosecutor in January 1996 the only person

17 in there whose father's name you give is Mr. Delic;

18 right?

19 A. I think so, yes. I can't remember. Maybe there are

20 some others.

21 Q. Shortly after you were brought to the camp at Celebici

22 you were questioned by a group of people -- right --

23 interrogated?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. In fact, Sefik Niksic was the one who asked most of the

Page 4221

1 questions, wasn't he?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. By the way, he was a police officer in Konjic before the

4 war, wasn't he?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Was Jasmin Guska there?

7 A. At that moment I do not remember seeing him.

8 Q. Let's go on a little bit to your experiences in Tunnel

9 9; okay? Now, everybody had an assigned place to sit in

10 Tunnel 9, didn't they?

11 A. Yes, more or less.

12 Q. And were you sitting near the door to the outside or

13 closer to the door on the back?

14 A. I was exactly midway -- not exactly but roughly midway.

15 Q. Was it before the curve or after the curve in the

16 tunnel? The tunnel curves, doesn't it?

17 A. Yes, yes. About midway of the straight part before it

18 curves. I'm not counting the part that curves.

19 Q. And the tunnel goes down fairly sharply, doesn't it?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. In fact, that's because it leads to a building that can

22 be used as a bomb shelter -- right -- or a room that can

23 be used as a shelter?

24 A. It is my assumption. I know there was a door there and

25 what is behind it I don't know.

Page 4222

1 Q. You said in your statement there was a door leading to a

2 gas station which could be used as an atomic shelter.

3 So you knew there was a bomb shelter down there when you

4 gave your statement to the Office of the Prosecutor back

5 in January 1996; right?

6 A. No. I said that this tunnel -- that above the tunnel

7 was a petrol station and what is underneath I don't

8 know. I know that there was a metal door and a

9 ventilator on the door, and I don't know what is

10 behind. I said it looked like an atomic shelter.

11 That is what it could be.

12 Q. So there was a ventilator on the door in the bottom?

13 A. The ventilator was built into the door.

14 Q. And so when you said in your statement:

15 "At the end there was a metal door leading to a

16 gas station which could be used as an atomic shelter",

17 you didn't know whether that was right or wrong; is that

18 what you're saying?

19 A. I didn't know because I never went behind that door.

20 The door couldn't be closed. It was only the

21 ventilator that was used occasionally. It was switched

22 on occasionally.

23 Q. Okay. So there was a hole in the door. It had a

24 ventilator; right? Is that what you are saying?

25 A. Yes, yes, and what was behind that door I don't know.

Page 4223

1 Q. Okay. So let me make sure that I understand this right

2 and make sure that the judges understand this. When

3 you said in your statement that you gave to the Office

4 of the Prosecutor in January 1996:

5 "At the end there was a metal door leading to a

6 gas station which could be used as an atomic shelter",

7 you didn't know that there was a gas station back there,

8 did you?

9 A. When I went out of Tunnel Number 9 I saw that above this

10 tunnel, behind this, was a covered sort of a shelter

11 that looked like a gas station. So I thought that that

12 was a door leading to the gas station and I assumed that

13 it could be a reservoir or a bomb shelter. Never for a

14 moment did I say explicitly that it was a shelter or a

15 gas station or anything. I was just trying to explain

16 what it looked like. To me it looked like a shelter.

17 Q. Okay. That gas station you are talking about, point to

18 it on the model, will you? Take the pointer and point

19 to it on the model?

20 A. Yes. (Indicating) It is. (No translation).

21 Q. I'm sorry. I didn't get a translation of that.

22 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness please repeat?

23 MR. MORAN: Could you please repeat your answer, sir.

24 There was some problem with our interpretation.

25 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Please repeat the demonstration you

Page 4224

1 just made.

2 A. (Indicating). This was probably the gas station, or at

3 least that is what it looked like, and if there's a door

4 here, then I assumed it led to this facility, that the

5 two were linked, but what is really underneath I don't

6 know.

7 MR. MORAN: So what you call a gas station has a letter on

8 top of it. Could you read the letter? I suspect your

9 vision is a little better than mine. Could you read

10 the letter on top of the thing you call the gas station?

11 A. The letter is N.

12 Q. That is about how far from the entrance to Tunnel 9?

13 A. I don't know exactly the distance but I think it was not

14 much more than 20 metres.

15 Q. Okay. Could you -- could the Registrar show the

16 witness -- I believe it's Prosecution exhibit 2,

17 photograph number 47 and 48. It would be this one and

18 this one.

19 THE REGISTRAR: It is Prosecution Exhibit 1.

20 MR. MORAN: We might want to use the ELMO. It hasn't shown

21 up on the ELMO. Is there a problem? While someone is

22 doing that, let's go on to something else. Let's see

23 if we can save a little time here. Do you just want to

24 leave that there and if we can get the ELMO up and

25 running.

Page 4225

1 You testified that the doors to Tunnel 9 was a

2 double door; right? It had two halves of the door?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. It was a metal door; right?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. I think we've got somebody here now and we'll see if we

7 can get the ELMO up and running.

8 I want you to look at picture number 47. There's

9 a little number down at the bottom. This is

10 sideways. I think we need to turn it 90 degrees. The

11 picture I want to address the witness' attention to is

12 one that's labelled number 47. Not that one but the

13 other one on the page. That one. I want you to take a

14 look at the picture that's there and also the picture on

15 the next page, which is labelled number 48, and I want

16 you to point to that vent in the door that you just

17 testified about. Take the pointer and point to the

18 door, to the hole in the door that's the vent that you

19 just told us about?

20 A. (Indicating) You cannot see the vent here in this

21 picture but this is the metal door where the ventilator

22 was and this ventilator was turned on and used.

23 Q. Okay. Look at the next page, page 48, picture number

24 48, and see if you can show us the holes in the door

25 that you testified about. If you see there's two doors

Page 4226

1 there, they appear -- see if you can see the hole in the

2 door that you were telling us about. Just point to it.

3 A. You cannot see it on the door, but I do say that this

4 ventilator was turned on and it was very powerful. It

5 would draw in a lot of air. The ventilator was in the

6 door itself.

7 Q. Okay. Now while we've got the usher here, let's go

8 back one more page to picture number 45 so we can see if

9 we can get this all done at one time. There you go.

10 Would you agree with me that that is a picture of the

11 front of Tunnel Number 9?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. And the doors that go into Tunnel Number 9, there's

14 really a double door. There's two halves; right?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. One half basically starts where that little white square

17 that says "9" is; right?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. That would be the right side of the door. The left

20 starts to the left of where that plaque is that says

21 "9"; right?

22 A. The left hand side, if you are standing in front of the

23 door, the left hand side starts on the left edge of

24 Number 9. So that would be -- then the other side

25 would be to the right of it.

Page 4227

1 Q. There are several steps that go down to get to that

2 door; right? You have to say "yes" or "no".

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. It is, what, about 1 metre or 1.5 metres below ground

5 level to get down?

6 A. I don't believe that it is a 1.5 metres, but I think

7 it's about 1 metre.

8 Q. Okay. You have never saw that side of the door that

9 has the 9 on it ever open completely, did you?

10 A. I did. I did see it.

11 Q. When they opened the doors, did they usually open both

12 doors or just one half?

13 A. It depended. Sometimes both; sometimes just one.

14 Q. And the doors open inward, don't they?

15 A. I think they don't. I think that they open outside.

16 Q. Okay. Let's look at picture number 46. That's taken

17 from about where you were sitting, isn't it, about

18 halfway down the tunnel?

19 A. I still think it doesn't -- this photograph here is --

20 was taken -- you can see it well, the end of this

21 slope. So this picture was taken from the flat

22 section, from the flat area of this room. So this is

23 the very end of it. So you could see the edge of this

24 wall that curves away from the door.

25 Q. Then point to where you sat.

Page 4228

1 A. (Indicating) In the middle of the section, so it would

2 be around here.

3 Q. So you are about how many metres from the front door?

4 A. I said about as far as the booths are, so about 10,

5 maybe even less, just between here and the interpreters.

6 Q. 9 or 10 metres; is that a fair guess?

7 A. Let's say it's that. I don't know exactly.

8 Q. Would you agree with me from where you are sitting that

9 the interpreters' booth is about 9 or 10 metres?

10 A. I don't know. Maybe 8 metres.

11 Q. Okay. I think we're done with the book. I think we're

12 done with the book and the ELMO. Thank you very much,

13 sir.

14 When you were in charge of getting the rations for

15 the people that were in the tunnel, do you know what

16 rations the civilians in Konjic were getting?

17 A. I don't know. I don't even know what the soldiers ate

18 in the barracks, let alone what was going on in the

19 city.

20 Q. Actually you just answered my next question about what

21 the soldiers were eating.

22 A. I don't know what the soldiers were eating, but I know

23 that a lot of food and other military supplies was

24 arriving to the barracks, that is to the camp, while we

25 were there, and all people who were in Building Number 6

Page 4229

1 could confirm that, because they were unloading both the

2 food and the weapons.

3 Q. Now you couldn't see that from Tunnel 9, could you?

4 A. No, but they did.

5 Q. So you really don't know what was being unloaded there,

6 do you?

7 A. No. Until I came to Building Number 6, I was the one

8 who was unloading the food.

9 Q. Let us go through a few things you said in your

10 testimony, your direct examination. One of the things

11 you said was you were hit with a yellowish baseball

12 bat. That was a brass baseball bat; right?

13 A. If I understood you well, you said it was brass. I

14 said that at first I thought it was brass because it was

15 shiny, so I thought it was made out of brass.

16 Q. But was it wood or was it brass?

17 A. The one that I got over my back, I think that that one

18 was wood.

19 Q. By the way, baseball is a big game in the former

20 Yugoslavia, isn't it? A lot of people play baseball,

21 don't they?

22 A. No, as far as I know baseball was not very popular

23 there, but that very issue of whether it was metal or

24 not, I understand you, sir you're a professional, but

25 I was not an observer there. I could not have observed

Page 4230

1 every detail which was there. I assumed that it was

2 wood based on how I felt it on my back.

3 Q. How many times did you get hit with that thing? One,

4 two, ten, 20?

5 A. Altogether around 30 times.

6 Q. Were you hit real hard?

7 A. Yes, on one occasion real hard, and I said that in my

8 statement, that I had a lot of fractured ribs from it

9 and I think that the medical record will show that.

10 Q. So when you got hit from this baseball bat 30 times it

11 was being swung as hard as anyone could swing it; right?

12 A. On that occasion, yes, when my ribs were fractured.

13 Q. Just that one swing was hard and the rest of them

14 weren't hard? I mean, I don't understand what you are

15 saying, sir.

16 A. They were all hard but it's not the same if the bat is

17 swung by somebody who weighs 60 kg and somebody who

18 weighs 100 kg person.

19 Q. Who swung the bat was hitting you as hard as he could --

20 is that what you are saying -- all 30 times?

21 A. I don't know. I really don't know the intensity, and I

22 don't know their strength. I don't know how hard they

23 are able to swing. I know how I felt. I know that it

24 hurt.

25 Q. Okay. Where were those 30 strikes of the baseball bat;

Page 4231

1 sir? All on your back?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Just straight across your spine?

4 A. It depended, and I cannot recall where each blow landed.

5 Q. Let's talk a little bit about your testimony on the

6 death of Zjelko Milosevic; okay?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Now that was one of the nights that -- when they took

9 him out the night he didn't come back, that was one of

10 the nights they closed the door in front of Tunnel 9,

11 isn't it?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Show the judges again where you saw him being -- you

14 heard him being beat and you saw the body. Take the

15 pointer and just show on the ...

16 A. (Indicating).

17 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Which body are you referring to?

18 MR. MORAN: Zjelko Milosevic, your Honour.


20 A. (Indicating) I think it was all taking place on the side

21 here or maybe here, because if it had been right in

22 front it would have been heard better and the corpse was

23 somewhere around here.

24 Q. Point again where you saw the corpse?

25 A. (Indicating) Here next to a hole that was dug in as a

Page 4232

1 toilet. He was right next to it in the middle here.

2 Q. So all of that occurred behind Tunnel 9?

3 A. Yes. That means along this path or road here.

4 Q. Tunnel 9, which has two solid metal doors that were

5 closed in front of it, and it was around a corner and

6 behind the entrance and above the entrance; right?

7 A. Somewhere behind the entrance, yes.

8 Q. But you could hear all this clearly, of course?

9 A. Let me tell you, we could not hear it through those

10 double doors that are deep down underground, maybe 2 or

11 3 metres down. We heard it through the entrance door,

12 which had no window panes, and you could hear everything

13 through those doors.

14 Q. By the way, you were talking about a -- you just talked

15 a minute ago about a pit that had been dug for use as a

16 latrine. Do you remember that?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. When you were doing your national service, did your army

19 teach you, like my army taught me, about a thing called

20 field sanitation?

21 A. No.

22 Q. So they didn't teach you that if you were some place

23 with a group of soldiers or whole group of people that

24 you should dig a latrine for people to use as a toilet?

25 A. No, sir. I was in communications in the army and I

Page 4233

1 really didn't have much of an infantry training, and so

2 this thing in particular I'm just not familiar with.

3 Q. In fact, when you were doing your national service you

4 were stationed at an army camp where there were a lot of

5 soldiers, were you not?

6 A. Yes, in a large barracks.

7 Q. And they had a lot of facilities to take care of that

8 large number of soldiers, didn't they?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Things like barracks and kitchens and showers and

11 toilets and recreational facilities?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. That is because there were a whole lot of people that

14 were stationed there; right?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Now the camp at Celebici was not designed to have a

17 whole lot of people stationed there, was it?

18 A. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know what the

19 purpose of this camp was originally. I had never been

20 there before in that barracks. I knew that it existed

21 somewhere behind the railroad station but I didn't know

22 what it was for.

23 Q. Back before the war you didn't see 200 or 300 or 400 JNA

24 soldiers stationed there, did you?

25 A. As I said, I had never been in that facility, not in

Page 4234

1 there or around it. I was at a lake which is maybe

2 1 km away, but I had never been there. I also passed

3 by it on the road and also, to be honest, I was not very

4 interested in it either.

5 Q. Slavko Susic, how long was he in the camp before his

6 death?

7 A. I don't know. I can't remember exactly. I cannot say

8 precisely the date so that I can tell a very specific

9 time period, but not long. At the most about fifteen

10 days.

11 Q. What at the least?

12 A. Maybe eight at the least.

13 Q. You testified a while ago about an Arab television crew

14 that came and took some pictures. Do you remember

15 that?

16 A. Yes. Yes.

17 Q. And you said you thought they were Arab because they

18 were black people; is that right?

19 A. Yes. Dark complexion and, to be honest this TV crew

20 left a very bad impression on us. We didn't know what

21 it was all about, who sent them, what was it so wrong

22 that we did that the television crews from around the

23 world would come and film us. So psychologically it

24 was very hard.

25 Q. You thought they were Arab because they were black

Page 4235

1 people; right? All black people are Arabs or all Arabs

2 are black people; which is it?

3 MS. McHENRY: Objection. Asked and answered. He stated

4 why he thought they were.

5 A. It's not difficult for me to answer that question

6 again. As far as I know the world population, my

7 perception and my opinion is that it was some kind of an

8 Arabic group and that that's how these people look.

9 MR. MORAN: Okay. Fine. I pass the witness.

10 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Thank you. Any other questions?

11 MR. O'SULLIVAN: Earlier I announced the order. The order

12 has changed slightly. Mr. Landzo's counsel will go

13 second, Mr. Mucic's third and Mr. Delalic's fourth.

14 MS. McMURREY: Your Honour, since Mr. Landzo is going next,

15 it is 12.55. Should we go ahead and take our lunch

16 break now?

17 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Thank you very much. We can spare

18 these five minutes.

19 MS. McMURREY: Thank you very much.

20 (12.55 pm)

21 (Luncheon adjournment)





Page 4236

1 (2.30 pm)

2 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Kindly invite the witness.

3 (Witness re-enters court)

4 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Please warn him about his oath.

5 THE REGISTRAR: Mr. Dordic, may I remind you that you are

6 still under oath.

7 A. Yes.

8 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Who is cross-examining? After your

9 charity, you have forgotten.

10 MS. McMURREY: For the five minutes. There is one thing I

11 would like to ask before I begin. The Prosecution and

12 Defence had filed a joint motion for the medical

13 examination of this witness. I was just wondering if

14 we had gotten any results from that.

15 MS. McHENRY: We certainly haven't gotten any results and

16 I have no information as to whether the appointment has

17 been, in fact, even carried out.

18 MS. McMURREY: Okay. Thank you very much.

19 Cross-examination by Ms McMurrey

20 MS. McMURREY: May it please the court.

21 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Yes, you can carry on.

22 MS. McMURREY: Thank you. Good afternoon, Mr. Dordic?

23 A. Good afternoon.

24 Q. My name is Cynthia McMurrey, and I am defence counsel

25 for Esad Landzo?

Page 4237

1 A. Glad to meet you.

2 Q. Nice to meet you. You have been doing such a good job

3 so far about listening to the questions and trying to

4 answer the questions since we have been on

5 cross-examination. I would just like to re-urge you to

6 answer only the questions that you have personal

7 knowledge of?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. And those are the questions that you have personally

10 witnessed or personally experienced, although I'm sure

11 the Prosecution has already explained all that to you

12 ahead of time; isn't that right?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. I don't know. How many days have you been waiting back

15 there to testify?

16 A. Here in the Hague?

17 Q. Here in the Hague.

18 A. I've been here since last Saturday -- the other Saturday

19 -- ten days I have been here.

20 Q. While you have been waiting to testify did the

21 Prosecution or anybody from the Prosecution ever discuss

22 with you why we've had this delay, anything about any

23 videotape or anything like that?

24 A. Yes. Mr.s Teresa told me that a video had been seen and

25 nothing more.

Page 4238

1 Q. Did they discuss anything with you about any newspaper

2 articles that had been published?

3 A. Mostly no, but I heard of those articles before I came

4 here.

5 Q. Did they discuss with you anything about the Association

6 of Detainees in Belgrade?

7 MS. McHENRY: Just by way of clarification, I'm not sure

8 that -- I'm not objecting to anything, but I am not sure

9 that the newspaper articles you are referring to are the

10 same ones that the witness is referring to.

11 MS. McMURREY: Well, I'm not going to get into specifics.

12 Thank you. I'm sorry. I didn't get the last answer

13 to the question about the Association of Detainees in

14 Belgrade.

15 A. We did not discuss them here.

16 Q. Thank you.

17 A. You're welcome.

18 Q. Some time in the last few months the Prosecution

19 notified you and told you that the Defence would like to

20 have a chance to discuss your experiences at Celebici

21 with you, didn't they?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. And you decided you did not want to talk with anybody

24 from the Defence; is that correct?

25 A. Yes.

Page 4239

1 Q. I want to get a few things cleared up also. When we

2 talk about statements that you've made, you've given

3 four statements in all, haven't you?

4 A. I think three. This is the fourth.

5 Q. Okay. Well, this -- let us just go through it so I

6 understand what you are thinking are your statements and

7 everybody is clear. The first statement that we are

8 referring to is one that was given before a military

9 investigating committee, the Fourth Corps in Konjic on

10 January 20th, 1993. Was that your first statement?

11 A. No. If you're counting that statement as well, then

12 it's all right. Then it's four.

13 Q. Thank you. Then the next statement you gave was the

14 one before Judge Elia Semic in the lower court in

15 Belgrade on October 17th, 1994; is that right?

16 A. Yes. Yes.

17 Q. The next statement you gave would have been January 23rd

18 and 24th of 1996, which was to the Office of the

19 Prosecution; right?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. And then the next statement would have been November

22 14th, 1996, and that's another statement that you gave

23 to the Office of the Prosecution; is that correct?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Now it's safe to say that during the period since your

Page 4240

1 release from Celebici you have spoken to the Association

2 of Detainees in Belgrade, haven't you?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. I'm going to let my learned colleague, Mr. Greaves, ask

5 you more questions about that later. Mr. Dordic, in

6 your statements you have -- first of all, what is your

7 occupation today?

8 A. Just now I am working as a waiter. That's one job, and

9 in another job I'm doing maintenance work on some

10 electrical equipment. So I have two jobs at the same

11 time.

12 Q. I believe that you said earlier that you did repair work

13 on televisions also, didn't you?

14 A. Yes. Yes.

15 Q. And in 1993 you told the investigating committee that

16 you were an expert in electronics; isn't that true?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Then in 1994 the statement from Belgrade says that you

19 were a telecommunications engineer; is that right?

20 A. That's a big mistake. I am an electronics technician

21 for Electro-communication. That is the school that I

22 graduated from.

23 Q. So then if the --

24 A. A craftsman, not an engineer, sorry.

25 Q. So the statement from Belgrade then stating that your

Page 4241

1 occupation was a telecommunications engineer, that's

2 incorrect, isn't it?

3 A. No.

4 Q. The first person that conducted the interview from the

5 OTP with you was a Mr. Bart d'Hooge, wasn't it?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Did you get a chance to visit with him back in the

8 witness lounge while you were waiting to testify?

9 A. We didn't talk. He just came by. He was rather

10 nervous. He too was waiting to testify, I suppose.

11 That's all.

12 Q. So you all just exchanged pleasantries and no discussion

13 about the case or anything?

14 A. No, nothing, just personal things, just greetings.

15 Q. Thank you. Now you stated also that you are from the

16 village of Zukici near Bradina; aren't you?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. I want to apologise ahead of time. I know my

19 pronunciations of the cities and the names are going to

20 be absolutely horrible, so if you can't understand,

21 please ask me and I'll try to spell it for you; okay?

22 A. Yes. Thank you.

23 Q. Thank you. You went to Bradina, I believe, on April

24 24th, 1992, didn't you?

25 A. Yes.

Page 4242

1 Q. How far is Zukici from Bradina?

2 A. 3 kms.

3 Q. So it's very close then, isn't it?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. And you were familiar with the Bradina area before April

6 1992, were you not?

7 A. Yes. It's more or less the place where I was born, so I

8 know everybody.

9 Q. So it would be safe to say that you knew -- you had

10 friends in Bradina, you had relatives in Bradina, and

11 you also worked out of Bradina each day, didn't you?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. About when did the people from Bradina begin to organise

14 themselves?

15 A. As far as I know only after this explosion in the

16 tunnel, the small tunnel just below Zukici.

17 Q. Before the explosion in the tunnel the people from

18 Bradina had set up certain checkpoints on highway M17,

19 hadn't they?

20 A. I think that that is not correct.

21 Q. So it's your testimony today that the people from

22 Bradina did not set up checkpoints on the main road

23 between Sarajevo and Konjic?

24 A. If they did, they did so just before the explosion in

25 the tunnel or maybe even after. They did but not in

Page 4243

1 the period that you were referring to. In the period

2 around the time that the tunnel exploded. Maybe

3 somewhere around April 21st, when railway traffic came

4 to a standstill and there were no vehicles passing any

5 more.

6 Q. Under the laws of Bosnia-Herzegovina any time an

7 individual would set up a checkpoint and stop or stall

8 traffic passing between Sarajevo and Konjic, that's

9 against the law, isn't it?

10 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: You want him to give a legal opinion.

11 MS. McMURREY: If he knows, your Honour.

12 A. Let me say that according to the law of

13 Bosnia-Herzegovina, as far as I know, or at least for as

14 long as I lived in Bosnia-Herzegovina, the laws of the

15 socialist Federal Republic of Yugoslavia were in force

16 and not the law of Bosnia-Herzegovina.

17 Q. Okay. The law of the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia

18 would not allow any private organisation to stop or

19 stall the flow of traffic between major cities, would

20 it?

21 A. Yes, that is correct, but a checkpoint that was put up

22 before the checkpoint in Bradina was elsewhere, which

23 was also manned by Muslims. Orarbir, this is a place

24 below Zukici. That checkpoint was put up before the

25 barricades in Bradina by people belonging to the Muslim

Page 4244

1 ethnic groups.

2 Q. When you say that was put up by people belonging to the

3 Muslim ethnic group, what you really mean is this was

4 placed there by the Territorial Defence. Isn't that

5 true?

6 A. I don't know how they called themselves then. I just

7 know that some companies in Konjic were still working

8 and that it all started with the mistreatment of Serbs

9 in a workers' bus that was taking the people to work.

10 After that the barricade in Bradina was put up.

11 Q. Just listen to this question too. The Territorial

12 Defence is not just a Muslim organisation. It was a

13 combination of MUP, HVO and the Territorial Defence,

14 wasn't it?

15 A. I don't know anything about that organisation, nor how

16 it was organised.

17 Q. But you did say that you served your military duty,

18 didn't you?

19 A. Yes. Yes.

20 Q. And that military duty was in the JNA. In what year

21 was that?

22 A. Yes. In 1987.

23 Q. Let's go back to the organisation of some kind of

24 defence in Bradina. How was it organised?

25 A. The very fact -- I have already told you this, but I

Page 4245

1 will repeat -- the very fact that the tunnel was mined

2 and that a man was killed in Konjic in front of the

3 Serbian orthodox church in Konjic, people panicked and

4 they were afraid of the further course of developments,

5 and I think it is only normal, and as a result people

6 put up guards around the hills to protect themselves and

7 their families.

8 Q. Okay. My question wasn't why was it organised; it was

9 how was it organised?

10 A. I said that guards were posted on the surrounding hills.

11 Q. Who were the people who began to organise the defence of

12 Bradina?

13 A. The people themselves one day gathered in the centre and

14 the question was asked whether we should do something or

15 not, and I know that Rajko Dordic was elected commander.

16 Q. Rajko Dordic, he's the one who decided how the meetings

17 were to be held and where they were going to be held;

18 right?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. How often were these meetings held?

21 A. I didn't attend any one of them, so I don't know.

22 Q. Do you remember where these meetings were held?

23 A. Mostly in the social building, social club building or

24 in a cafe. It depends on how many people there were.

25 Q. Was there anyone other than Rajko Dordic that led these

Page 4246

1 meetings, or was it just Rajko Dordic?

2 A. I think that the late Vaso Vujicic, Dragan Vujicic, they

3 were also a part of that organisation. Then the

4 President of the Serbian Democratic Party, Vukasin

5 Mrkajic, he was there, too, in all of this.

6 Q. About how many people would you say attended most of

7 these meetings?

8 A. Your Honour, I don't necessarily object but I just want

9 to clarify if the witness is answering from his own

10 personal knowledge or what he's heard, since I believe

11 that he has already stated that he himself did not go to

12 these meetings. I just ask for clarification.

13 MS. McMURREY: Your Honour, I'll be happy to clarify that.

14 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Let's hear him.

15 MS. McMURREY: Thank you. Mr. Dordic, you did attend some

16 of these meetings in town, didn't you?

17 A. Town?

18 Q. In the town of Bradina. You did attend some of these

19 meetings?

20 A. It's a village, not a town. No.

21 Q. You never attended any of the meetings that were set up

22 to organise the Defence of Bradina?

23 A. No.

24 Q. Do you know how the decisions were made at these

25 meetings?

Page 4247

1 A. I don't know. I wasn't there.

2 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Would you have accepted that if he

3 answered? Would that be within his personal knowledge?

4 MS. McMURREY: I just asked him if he knew personally and he

5 said no.

6 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: I just wanted to know whether you

7 would have accepted it.

8 MS. McMURREY: I think this is turning the tables on me now,

9 your Honour. I accept it. Mr. Dordic, when decisions

10 were made at these meetings, do you know how the

11 information was circulated around the village of

12 Bradina? Was there a community bulletin board or was it

13 word of mouth?

14 A. It was mostly word of mouth from one hamlet to another,

15 depending on where people lived. They were informed

16 that on such and such a day they should gather at such

17 and such a place. Mostly it was all word of mouth.

18 Q. Okay. You stated in your direct examination that you

19 received a weapon, and I don't remember what kind it was

20 exactly right now, but you have received it from a

21 cousin of yours; is that correct?

22 A. I apologise. What do you mean when you say the direct

23 hearing?

24 Q. Maybe I --

25 A. The examination-in-chief. I'm sorry.

Page 4248

1 Q. When you were giving your evidence to the Prosecution

2 you stated that you did receive a weapon in Bradina and

3 you said you received it from your cousin; is that

4 correct?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. What is your cousin's name?

7 A. Dragan Vujicic.

8 Q. Is that the same Dragan Vujicic that was killed?

9 A. Yes, unfortunately.

10 Q. And do you know where he got his weapon or got the

11 weapons that he was distributing?

12 A. This is the third time I'm explaining this, but I shall

13 do my best. I said that people found ways. There was

14 lawlessness in all the three groups. Everyone had

15 friends in barracks, in the military factory, and these

16 weapons were brought in by all three sides, the Serbs,

17 Muslims, Croats. It was possible for a Muslim to buy

18 an automatic rifle from a Serb for a handful of money --

19 this was just before the war broke out -- and vice

20 versa.

21 Q. Well, my question is knowing that -- you did state

22 earlier that this was a military, JNA type weapon.

23 These weapons were provided to the town of Bradina by

24 Serbian officers?

25 A. Yes.

Page 4249

1 Q. Weren't they, formally of the JNA?

2 A. Yes. Most probably, because an ordinary civilian

3 couldn't enter the barracks. He must have had a friend

4 there or some other way to get hold of a weapon.

5 Q. Okay. Thank you very much. Now you also said that

6 you did participate in the watches of Bradina; isn't

7 that correct?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. What date did these watches begin?

10 A. I told you. Somewhere when the barricades was put up,

11 when the traffic stopped and the explosion occurred,

12 somewhere around 21st April, but I wasn't there yet.

13 Q. When you came to Bradina then on 24th April, these

14 watches were already in force at that time; is that

15 right?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. How were these watches organised? How did you get your

18 assignment of duty, so to say?

19 A. It was mostly an agreement amongst the people. In every

20 hamlet or in the centre of the village one of the people

21 that contacted with the people at the meetings who knew

22 what had been agreed and we were all aware of the danger

23 that threatened, and there was no need for any special

24 kind of orders or assignment.

25 Q. How did you know who was going to stand watch one night

Page 4250

1 and who was going to stand watch another night? Did

2 Rajko Dordic make assignments for some sort of

3 alternating?

4 A. No, we agreed amongst ourselves. As far as I know

5 there was no plan.

6 Q. How many people stood watch at one time? Were there

7 four of you? Were there five of you? Were there ten?

8 A. It is a very large area. The circle around Bradina is

9 vast, so that usually there were two of us on a

10 particular hill and there would be 4-5 kms between us

11 and the next two.

12 Q. I'm not really familiar with that geography of how many

13 hills are there. Would that multiply out to 15, 30?

14 Just a round figure, please.

15 A. About one-third of the people that we had in all would

16 be on watch duty, and if you were to cover all those

17 hills round Bradina the circle would be more than 20

18 kms. So one-third, maybe up to 100, not even that

19 many.

20 Q. Okay. Thank you very much. Now when you were all on

21 these watches at the different hills like that did you

22 communicate with each other by walkie-talkie or did you

23 have some kind of way of communicating with each other?

24 A. No. There was no way of communicating. It was just

25 important to make sure that there were no other people

Page 4251

1 or groups there, but there was no means of communicating

2 amongst ourselves. We didn't even have electricity, so

3 that we couldn't use any electrical devices.

4 Q. Was Miro Golubovic one of the people who stood watch

5 with you?

6 A. I do not remember him from Bradina I just remember him

7 from the Celebici camp. I didn't see him in Bradina.

8 Q. What about Stefan Gligorevic?

9 A. Stefan Gligorevic was born in Bradina and probably he

10 did keep watch duty, but in the area closer to the other

11 tunnel behind Bradina, so I don't know personally. I

12 cannot say for sure, but probably.

13 Q. What about Mladen Kuljanin?

14 A. The same applies to him. He is in a different

15 hamlet. His house is just below Ivan Sedlo. This is

16 a mountain crossing. So I don't know.

17 Q. Well, you have already given a lot of testimony about

18 the fighting and battle of Bradina, so I'm going to

19 leave that to my learned colleague for Mr. Delalic to

20 question you more about.

21 You fled from Bradina on May 26th; is that

22 correct?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. And so from May 26th to May 31st you were basically out

25 in the woods hiding or trying to get to the Serbian

Page 4252

1 area; is that correct?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Now, you said that you were captured on May 30th near

4 Ljuta; is that right?

5 A. Yes, a village called Ljuta. This is near Kalinovic.

6 Q. The leader of your group while you were fleeing Bradina

7 was a Rajko Dordic; is that what you told us? I know

8 you said he was leader in the city but while you were

9 out going to the Serbian safe area, he was also your

10 leader, wasn't he?

11 A. I don't know what his title was. I know he worked as a

12 teacher. I don't know his training was but I know that

13 he was skilled in orienting himself in the mountains, so

14 ...

15 Q. Who were the other soldiers that were with you in that

16 period of time of May 26th through May 30th?

17 A. Please, ma'am, these were not soldiers. These were

18 civilians, mostly my neighbours, my relatives, people

19 from Bradina and Zukici.

20 Q. Who were the other persons that were with you during

21 that time?

22 A. At the time when we were trying to escape?

23 Q. Yes. During the time between May 26th and May 31st?

24 A. Are you interested in the names?

25 Q. Yes, please.

Page 4253

1 A. I will name the ones I can remember: Mladen Dordic,

2 Zdravko Dordic, Mirko Dordic, Rajko Dordic. I can't

3 recall now all the names.

4 Q. People with the surname Dordic, is it safe to say they

5 are related to you?

6 A. Yes, but not closely related, not all of them were my

7 close relatives.

8 Q. Each one of up travelling through the woods from

9 May 26th on, you each had a weapon in your arms, didn't

10 you?

11 A. I don't think that all of them did.

12 Q. Where were you all headed at that time?

13 A. Since there was shooting in Sarajevo as well as in

14 Mostar, we went through -- towards Kalinovic, since

15 there was a large military barracks there. So we

16 thought that there the military was still controlling

17 the barracks, and so we wanted to get there.

18 Q. Well, on the first night of your travels, on May 26th,

19 where did you all sleep?

20 A. Mostly we didn't. We were on the move and it was

21 difficult and those are the high mountains, very rugged

22 terrain. The weather was bad. It was raining. So

23 we found no conditions for sleeping.

24 Q. Well, some time between May 26th and May 30th you must

25 have slept some time. Did you all set up camp

Page 4254

1 somewhere?

2 A. We didn't have any equipment to set up camp. We only

3 had the rifles and what we -- the clothes we had on.

4 We would take breaks, mostly during day-time, and at

5 night we would continue to move on because they were

6 shooting at us from the hills. They were shooting at

7 our column.

8 Q. Now, it's not clear whether you were captured on 30th or

9 31st May. Can you clear that up for us?

10 A. Again I repeat this was not capture. We turned over

11 the weapons to them. They were just shooting at us

12 from the ambushes or however they were shooting. We

13 just came down and gave them the weapons, as if I would

14 now come and turn my weapon over to you. I think that

15 surrender means something else. What they told us was

16 that we would just give them our weapons and they would

17 give us a lift to Kalinovic, but it turned out

18 otherwise.

19 Q. Now, also some time in that period of time between May

20 26th and May 30th while you were all in transit you

21 captured some soldiers from the Territorial Defence,

22 didn't you?

23 A. Yes, a young man came. I think we were resting in a

24 wood. He came with a rifle and he walked in on us.

25 This was near the village of Ljuta. We told him to

Page 4255

1 show us the way to Kalinovic. He agreed, but he wanted

2 to have us give him an automatic rifle. He was a young

3 guy about 18. I said: "No problem". Then the whole

4 day we walked along some creeks, some other places. I

5 don't know where.

6 Q. So this soldier that you say you captured, you gave him

7 an automatic weapon in exchange for his leading you

8 through the forest. Is that what you are saying?

9 A. No, no, no. First of all, we did not capture him. We

10 were sitting. It was some cut wood, so there were

11 three stumps. He came and he carried this M-48

12 rifle. We asked him to lower his weapon and to show us

13 the way. Somebody took away this rifle from him and we

14 asked him to take us there, and as a reward for his

15 taking us to Kalinovic he wanted us to give him one of

16 the automatic rifles.

17 Q. But he never was rewarded, was he?

18 A. No, because we never made to Kalinovic, nor did he stay

19 with us the whole time, because there was shooting in

20 some woods. Two men appeared and he fled. We stayed

21 there.

22 Q. It was said that two of your soldiers killed this young

23 man, wasn't it?

24 A. No. That young man survived. I saw this young man the

25 following morning when we were led towards the truck

Page 4256

1 tied up. That young man is alive certainly.

2 Q. During the exchange of fire while you were fleeing there

3 was a soldier from the territorial defence that was

4 killed, wasn't there?

5 A. I don't know. The man -- as I already said, the man

6 who entered and was shooting in the air, he said that

7 his brother-in-law was killed, but I don't know who he

8 meant.

9 Q. Okay. When you surrendered or were captured, whichever

10 way you want to look at it, your weapons were taken from

11 you at that time, weren't they?

12 A. No. They were not take away from us. We gave it,

13 turned it over. There was no force involved. We just

14 gave these weapons over to them.

15 Q. At that time were all your personal valuables taken from

16 you also?

17 A. Not at that moment. I had a small knife. That's the

18 only thing that was taken away. What I had in terms of

19 documents, my own IDs, all this I kept, but at that

20 moment I repeat, only at that stage.

21 Q. The other people that were with you, their weapons and

22 anything that could be used as a weapon was taken away

23 from them at that time?

24 A. Again I repeat we turned it in, not just myself but all

25 the people who came down to the road with me. So there

Page 4257

1 was no force on either side. We were met by the people

2 there. Zaro Mrkajic was with them. Nothing

3 happened. We were not tied. We were not mistreated

4 in any way. We all climbed on the truck and went to

5 the village.

6 Q. Then you were taken to the school in Ljuta; is that

7 correct?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Men with HOS and HVO insignias came to interview you?

10 MS. McHENRY: I am going to object as to asked and answered

11 several times, both on direct and prior

12 cross-examination.

13 MS. McMURREY: Your Honours, I just wanted to go through

14 this trip to Celebici because it's very important in

15 this case to explain exactly how many times this man was

16 beaten from the time he surrendered until the time he

17 got to Celebici. I don't know that Mr. Moran walked him

18 all the way through all of the areas that I would like

19 to cover. May I have permission to explore this?

20 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: You are not going through the process

21 again?

22 MS. McMURREY: I will do it very quickly, I promise. My

23 question also is -- I don't know that anyone has

24 explained to the court. Can you tell us what HOS

25 stands for? We know what HVO is but what is HOS?

Page 4258

1 A. Hrvacke Oruzane Snage, which means Croatian Armed

2 Forces.

3 Q. Is that a special group of the Croatian armed forces?

4 A. That I don't know, but HOS means Croatian Armed Forces.

5 Q. Does HVO also mean Croatian Armed Forces?

6 A. No. HVO means Hrvacko Vijece Obrane, which means

7 Croatian Defence Council. That is the Croatian army of

8 Bosnia-Herzegovina and HOS is the armed forces of the

9 Republic of Croatia, or that's how it should be, because

10 only these two men had these insignias that meant these

11 two things.

12 Q. Thank you for clearing that up for me, but when you were

13 at Ljuta, I believe you said you were beaten with rifle

14 butts, kicked with chairs and fists and this lasted

15 approximately four and a half hours; is that right?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Then you were taken by truck from Ljuta to the village

18 of Sabici; is that correct?

19 A. No, we walked on foot for a long distance out of Ljuta.

20 I thought we were going to be executed. Every one of

21 us had a guard at the side of him. With them, one

22 among them was this young man that was supposedly

23 captured by us. He was fine. He was with them. We

24 came to a road in the woods and there were two small

25 trucks parked there. We climbed and then we went

Page 4259

1 towards the village of Sabici.

2 Q. Then you were taken to a prefabricated building and you

3 were beaten there, weren't you?

4 A. Yes. That was probably the school in Sabici. We were

5 beaten there. These were people we didn't know. After

6 a while they loaded us on to a larger truck.

7 Q. I haven't gone on yet. How long did that boating last?

8 A. I don't know. Trust me. I was already a bit lost.

9 I don't know that it took that long. Maybe one hour.

10 Q. How many people would you say beat you at that point?

11 A. There were about 50 at least who were in the room and

12 the rest were outside. I don't know how many.

13 Q. What items or tools did they use to beat you with

14 there? The same thing? Chairs, rifle butts, kicks?

15 A. Yes. Rifle butts and broom handles and things that you

16 just mentioned.

17 Q. So anything they could get their hands on; is that

18 pretty accurate?

19 A. Yes. . Yes.

20 Q. Then you were taken from that location to Mount Igman,

21 to the Famos Hotel; is that correct?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. That's where your personal information was taken, wasn't

24 it?

25 A. Yes. Personal information and all the ID documents that

Page 4260

1 we had in our possession.

2 Q. So at that point they took all of your ID documents and

3 your valuables from you, didn't they?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. And that was at Mount Igman; right?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Also to get back into the truck from Mount Igman you

8 were forced to run a gauntlet, were you not?

9 A. Yes. There were military only on one side and

10 civilians, including some women, on the other. There

11 were many different objects that they used, but one of

12 them fell and had to be helped up to the truck, couldn't

13 climb it by himself -- could not climb in by himself.

14 Q. I want to clarify. By running a gauntlet, that means

15 you were beaten all of the way from the hotel into the

16 truck; is that right?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Then you were taken by truck from the hotel to the

19 village of Verdolija?

20 A. Yes. We appeared up there. I saw that -- I have never

21 gone to Verdolija, but I was in Zepe before, but I

22 recognised some people who lived up there who went to

23 school together with me from that village, and we fared

24 the same way in that village, because not that many

25 people climbed on to the truck to beat us. They cursed

Page 4261

1 us and insulted us mostly.

2 Q. Would it be safe to say when you were driven through

3 this village that there was a mad mob who wanted to

4 stone you; is that correct?

5 A. Yes. There was some rock throwing towards the truck and

6 some beating.

7 Q. If the soldiers had released you to that mob, you

8 probably would have been killed, wouldn't you, so it was

9 safer to stay in the truck?

10 A. No, we were not even offered to get off the truck

11 there. The truck stopped there briefly only.

12 Q. Then from the village of Verdolija you were taken to the

13 village of Zepe; is that correct?

14 A. Yes. Zepe.

15 Q. Then there was another mad mob in that village, too,

16 wasn't there?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. And then from Zepe you were on your way to Konjic and

19 you were beaten in the truck on the way to Konjic, were

20 you not?

21 A. Yes, of course. All the guards were provoking us

22 constantly. I think I mentioned this several times.

23 They forced us to kiss some dead boar that they threw on

24 to the truck with us. They said that this was our

25 symbol. They made us kiss the SDA and the HDZ badges

Page 4262

1 as well.

2 Q. Then when you got to Konjic you were taken to the SUP

3 headquarters, I suppose, and you were beaten by the

4 guards there, too, were you not?

5 A. Yes, in front of the building in the truck.

6 Q. And you were beaten with rifle butts, kicks, fists and

7 anything else they could lay their hands on again there;

8 is that accurate?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. In fact, I believe you referred to being treated like

11 cattle at some point, didn't you?

12 A. Yes. Yes. Not just on one occasion, but throughout my

13 stay in the camp.

14 Q. Now could you tell us who the other people in the truck

15 with you during your transport to Celebici were?

16 A. As I already said, there was Rajko Dordic, Miromir

17 Mrkajic, Mladen Dordic. I think I already mentioned

18 several names. Should I try to remember all the names?

19 Q. I was just wondering. There were more people in the

20 truck than were just the people who were fleeing with

21 you from Bradina; right?

22 A. It cannot be more.

23 Q. So it was just your group then that was in this truck?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Now when you got to Celebici you told us already that

Page 4263

1 you were lined up against what became the medical

2 building, and then you were interrogated there, were you

3 not?

4 A. No, we were not interrogated in front of the wall. We

5 were just beaten there. We were taken individually

6 into the office and interrogated there.

7 Q. Okay. When you were interrogated, they ask you relevant

8 questions like: "Did you have a weapon? Were you a

9 member of the SDS?" , those kinds of questions, didn't

10 they?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Based on the answers you gave in that interrogation,

13 they placed you into one group or the other that they

14 considered dangerous or not dangerous. Isn't that

15 true?

16 A. I think that that happened later in the camp. There

17 was a process of determining. We found this out

18 later. So there was a contact with the families.

19 They determined that there were -- they ranked the

20 inmates into lighter and more difficult categories.

21 Q. But your whole group after your interrogation was placed

22 in Tunnel Number 9, wasn't it?

23 A. Yes, yes.

24 Q. And that night after you were interrogated I believe you

25 stated before that someone named Foca, F-O-C-A, beat you

Page 4264

1 that evening, didn't you?

2 A. I apologise. I did not understand the question well.

3 When was this?

4 Q. After you were interrogated, when you first arrived at

5 Celebici, were you then beaten by a man named Foca?

6 A. No, at that time I did not know who this Focak was.

7 I was beaten by some people but at that time Focak did

8 not exist; at least at that time I did not know him.

9 Q. Is it safe to say you were pretty much in Tunnel 9 from

10 May 31st until the end of September or October, whenever

11 you were moved to Hangar Number 6; is that right?

12 A. Yes, except for occasional times when I was taken to the

13 manhole, but I think that I had already told that.

14 Q. So the majority of your time you were at Celebici was

15 spent in Tunnel 9; wouldn't that be safe to say?

16 A. Yes. Until the moment when this Tunnel Number 9 was

17 closed down.

18 Q. Okay. I would like to ask us to refer again to

19 Prosecution Exhibit number 1, photograph number 45,

20 please. If I could have that put on the ELMO, please,

21 Mr. Usher. I know that you saw this photograph earlier,

22 and I just want to -- and you did state that the right

23 side of the door remained closed and the operational

24 part of the door was the left side; is that correct?

25 A. For the most part the left side was open but the right

Page 4265

1 side could be open as well, and it was open

2 occasionally.

3 Q. Whenever it was open -- when you say occasionally, it

4 was opened when they needed to move something large in

5 or out of Tunnel 9; is that correct -- like the toilet

6 bucket?

7 A. No. That bucket was small enough to be put through just

8 one side. It would depend on the will and the need of

9 the guards. There was no need except to carry in or

10 out of the wounded people. There was no other need.

11 Q. So it would be safe to say that 99.9 per cent of the

12 time that door was stationary, closed?

13 A. I'm sorry but that's not the percentage that I stated.

14 As I said, that door was opened as needed by the guards.

15 Q. Now could you also look now at Prosecution photograph

16 number 46, please?

17 A. Of course I can. I even dream of these photographs,

18 actually the things that are in these photographs quite

19 frequently.

20 Q. In fact, looking from somewhere halfway down the hall

21 where you were seated out that door, that's the way it

22 looked most of the time from the inside during the day;

23 is that correct?

24 A. Yes, unless the other side is not open. If only the

25 left door would be open, that's how it would look.

Page 4266

1 Q. It is also safe to say that there were no lights on in

2 Tunnel 9 during the day or the night, were there, as in

3 the photographs?

4 A. There wasn't except those two small openings at the top

5 of the doors.

6 Q. There was also in Tunnel Number 9 -- you had referred to

7 a ventilator in the door back there before. There were

8 fans back close to those solid doors leading to that --

9 whatever that room was behind those doors. There were

10 fans before that in the tunnel, weren't there?

11 A. I did not understand. I did not understand this

12 question.

13 Q. If you could look at photograph number 48, please,

14 number 48, this is -- is this taken from inside of the

15 room out towards the tunnel? Would that be the

16 perspective of this photograph?

17 A. I don't know. I'm not aware of the double doors in

18 Number 9. I saw one door and then the second door, so

19 I don't -- I'm not clear about the vantage point from

20 which this photograph was taken.

21 Q. Well, there were times when you were in Tunnel 9 when

22 you were sprayed off with water, placed back in the

23 tunnel and then fans were turned on. Isn't that

24 correct?

25 A. Yes, that happened when we were taken out nude to be

Page 4267

1 bathed, and I can show it to you where. Here is the

2 end of the railroad and there was a cement block that

3 was used as a barrier and there a hose was installed

4 under high pressure and we would come and went running

5 past this hose while --

6 Q. Excuse me --

7 A. Had the fans --

8 Q. Mr. Dordic, I was not asking you about your bath. I was

9 just referring to the fans that were in the tunnel.

10 They were turned on occasionally, weren't they?

11 A. Yes, occasionally, and that is one such instance that

12 I was going to describe, if you allow me to.

13 Q. Those fans are very, very loud, almost deafening, aren't

14 they, when they come on?

15 A. Yes, and very, very strong. They suck up a great deal

16 of air through the small vents on the entrance door.

17 Q. Okay. I would like to ask the usher to -- I would like

18 to have this marked as a Defence Exhibit merely for

19 identification purposes. The Prosecution has seen it

20 and it was provided to us from the Prosecution.

21 Mr. Usher, could you show it to the witness, please, and

22 could we put it on the ELMO also?

23 MS. McHENRY: If it has any other witness' name on it, I

24 would certainly ask that it not be placed on the ELMO or

25 that the witness' name be taken away.

Page 4268

1 MS. McMURREY: Could we put a piece of tape over that

2 witness' name then. That would be fine with me.

3 Mr. Dordic, is this an accurate drawing about the seating

4 position in tunnel 9 at the time you were there?

5 A. I can't remember exactly the names or exactly where

6 people sat, but if I can look a bit ...

7 Q. Yes. Take a moment and view it, if you can.

8 A. I don't think it is absolutely correct, but more or

9 less.

10 Q. Is it fair to say that the closest person to the door is

11 a Desimir Mrkajic; is that correct?

12 A. Yes, mostly, more or less. I think later it was Rajko

13 Mrkajic, his son.

14 Q. And the drawing doesn't put you exactly right in the

15 middle, does it? It puts you at number 14 down the

16 list, I believe; is that correct?

17 MS. McHENRY: If we can just object and at least clarify,

18 this is a diagram from another witness, who specifically

19 stated in it that he's putting down the names that he

20 remembers them but there were many other names, and he

21 gives 25 of them, and he doesn't remember exactly where

22 those people were sitting. So just to the extent that

23 it's clear that this is an incomplete diagram by

24 everyone, and so I think it's an unfair question to ask

25 this witness that he's not in the middle, because the

Page 4269

1 diagram doesn't purport to have even all the detainees

2 on it, just a selected number.

3 MS. McMURREY: I will accept that from Ms McHenry. It

4 clearly is not totally accurate, but if he can recognise

5 it and state it's close to accurate, that's kind of what

6 I'm looking for right now. So let the record reflect

7 that it leaves off about eight detainees who should be

8 in the line somewhere.

9 MS. McHENRY: I believe it's closer to 25, at least from the

10 witness who drew the diagram. He gives 25 other

11 detainees and he says he can't remember exactly where

12 they were.

13 MS. McMURREY: Maybe you just need to clear it up for me.

14 I thought there were 25 in total in the tunnel and he

15 lists 17; is that correct or not?

16 MS. McHENRY: During the break I got a copy of this witness'

17 statement and he gives 16 and then I believe he lists

18 the name of 25 additional people. So he gives the

19 number for 16. I have a copy of it here. Then he

20 gives an additional 25 names, which would be, I think,

21 41 altogether.

22 MS. McMURREY: Your Honours, we will be able to clear this

23 up with additional witnesses as they come forward, but

24 just for getting a general picture of where this man sat

25 in the tunnel, I would like to go forward with either

Page 4270

1 letting him recognising it as close to accurate or not

2 close to accurate, if that is fair or not fair.

3 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: You can put the question.

4 MS. McMURREY: Mr. Dordic, it shows in this diagram you were

5 sitting about 14 in this row. Would that be close to

6 accurate?

7 A. I can't say exactly that I was number 14. I didn't

8 count, nor did this seem important at the time, but I

9 sat roughly in the middle of the slanting part of the

10 tunnel.

11 Q. You were in this tunnel for five months and you never

12 counted exactly where you were down the line?

13 MS. McHENRY: Objection. Asked and answered.

14 MS. McMURREY: I would like to ask the usher to have another

15 document marked just for identification purposes.

16 MS. McHENRY: Before showing it to the witness the

17 Prosecution would just ask the source of the document

18 and the purpose for which it is being shown to the

19 witness.

20 MS. McMURREY: The purpose for which it is being shown to

21 the witness is so he can say this is an accurate

22 depiction of the seating. I'm only going to use the

23 corner picture up in the right upper corner to show him,

24 to see if that's accurately how they sat in the tunnel.

25 MS. McHENRY: May I ask the source of this document?

Page 4271

1 MS. McMURREY: May have I have a moment, your Honour?

2 (Pause). Your Honour, I don't believe I'm required to

3 reveal the source of the document. If he can recognise

4 it as accurate or not accurate, then it can be used for

5 identification purposes one way or the other. We are

6 not introducing it into evidence.

7 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: You can put it to him.

8 MS. McMURREY: Okay. Thank you. Mr. Usher, I would just

9 like this one corner shown on the ELMO for

10 identification purposes. Thank you.

11 JUDGE JAN: You must have guessed the purpose for which he

12 is trying to indicate his position. You must have

13 guessed it already.

14 MS. McHENRY: No, your Honour. If you would receive the

15 document in its entirety, I don't --

16 JUDGE JAN: You know what is the response for which she is

17 asking him to locate his position.

18 MS. McHENRY: I think when you see, in fact, the diagram, I

19 don't think that's exactly -- at least, as I understood

20 it, but I am happy to go forward and see.

21 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: I think it is very easy for him to

22 say: "I wasn't sitting in that position", full stop, or

23 "I was sitting there".

24 MS. McHENRY: Your Honour, with respect to the prior

25 document, I agree and that's why we didn't object to the

Page 4272

1 prior document. It's this coming up document.

2 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: I don't see the difference between the

3 two. It depends on how he regards -- if he can

4 recognise where he was sitting.

5 MS. McMURREY: May I proceed, your Honour?

6 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Yes. Let's hear him.

7 MS. McMURREY: Mr. Dordic, if you had opened the right-hand

8 door on Tunnel 9 and you were looking into the tunnel,

9 would this be an accurate depiction of how the detainees

10 were forced to sit in the tunnel, all on the right-hand

11 side?

12 A. Yes, mostly. When someone was not hurt or when the

13 guards were not there, we had to sit on the left-hand

14 side, too, sometimes when the guards were not there,

15 because it was so tight. There wasn't enough room.

16 Q. Any time the guards were around or the door was open or

17 closed, this would be an accurate depiction of how you

18 were sitting but many times you had to have your head

19 down; is that correct?

20 A. Yes. Our heads between our knees and our arms on our

21 knees, sufficiently as the drawing is, only our knees

22 were more bent and our heads were leaning on our

23 knees. It all depended on what the guard was ordering

24 us to do.

25 Q. Okay. Thank you very much. I'm finished with the

Page 4273

1 drawing. Thank you.

2 MS. McHENRY: I assume that the diagram will be admitted

3 into evidence since she has shown it to the witness.

4 MS. McMURREY: I was just using it for identification

5 purposes. I will tender it to the court if they like.

6 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Well, what were you identifying?

7 MS. McMURREY: I was identifying the position of the

8 detainees in Tunnel 9, how they sat.

9 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Generally, or this particular

10 witness?

11 MS. McMURREY: Well, he admitted that that is the way they

12 sat when people came, except that they had their heads

13 down. So I don't know that it's totally accurate, but

14 if Ms McHenry would like to introduce it into evidence,

15 I'll be happy to.

16 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: If you wish to.

17 MS. McMURREY: We now offer this drawing into evidence.

18 THE REGISTRAR: It will be document D8/1 and D9/1.

19 MS. McMURREY: Thank you. So basically you were somewhere

20 at least halfway down the tunnel and there were about

21 three feet or 1 metre worth of stairs on the outside of

22 the door looking out; is that correct?

23 A. I don't know exactly. Three or four steps. I don't

24 know exactly how many there were, because believe me,

25 I had many other problems to be able to think about the

Page 4274

1 number of steps, and I was sitting -- let me repeat

2 again -- roughly in the middle of the tunnel. I can't

3 say that I sat exactly in the middle. I didn't measure

4 it, but I think that's where I was.

5 Q. Was Mirko Kuljanin also in Tunnel 9 with you?

6 A. Mirko Kuljanin?

7 Q. I'm sorry. Excuse me. We need to wait until the court

8 finishes talking.

9 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: It's a private aside.

10 MS. McMURREY: Okay. I'm sorry. Was Mirko Kuljanin also

11 in Tunnel 9 with you?

12 A. I can't remember. I can't recall which Mirko you are

13 talking about.

14 Q. He's an older gentleman from Bradina. His name is

15 Mirko Kuljanin. You don't remember him?

16 A. At this moment I can't recall exactly.

17 Q. Now going to Slavko Susic, today your first statement

18 was that the person who took him out was Esad Macic, and

19 I'm not finished forming the question yet, but in your

20 statement of 1994 in Belgrade and in your statements to

21 the Prosecution of 1996 you never mentioned Mr. Landzo's

22 name in connection with Slavko Susic, did you?

23 A. I apologise if I said that again today. I said that

24 Esad Macic was frequently a guard outside Tunnel Number

25 9, but as far as my memory is correct, I said that I

Page 4275

1 remember it was Hazim Delic and Esad Landzo.

2 Q. But you never said that in any of your prior statements,

3 did you?

4 A. Statements take a long time and maybe even now I will

5 not be able to say everything I should have said and all

6 I have gone through.

7 Q. Now, your Honours, I'm going to ask some questions now

8 about a witness that they had sought protection for but

9 I believe that there's no issue on that now, but just to

10 be sure, I want to know -- Ms McHenry knows I am going

11 into the issue of some brothers. Do they still have

12 protection or not?

13 MS. McHENRY: I believe it has been verified that they do

14 not -- that there is no protection at least with respect

15 to -- only one of them is a potential witness. He is

16 not protected.

17 JUDGE JAN: In fact, he appeared on the television.

18 MS. McHENRY: That's exactly right.

19 MS. McMURREY: That's the one. So I'm going to go forward

20 with questions about him. Thank you. Was there an

21 order in force with his protection because I don't want

22 to violate any order if there was and I want to make it

23 clear whether there is an order still in effect or no

24 order in effect.

25 MS. McHENRY: I believe the order, if I'm correct, indicates

Page 4276

1 that the Prosecution or if the witness withdraws his

2 request for protection, and this witness, Mr. Vaso

3 Dordic, has withdrawn his request for protection.

4 MS. McMURREY: Thank you very much. Now, Mr. Dordic, the

5 Dordic brothers, the twins, are cousins of yours, aren't

6 they?

7 A. I apologise. Which twin brothers are you referring to?

8 Q. Vaso and Veseljko Dordic?

9 A. As far as I know there's two years difference between

10 them. They're not twins at all.

11 Q. Okay. So they're just brothers; they're not twins?

12 A. Yes, brothers.

13 Q. When they were in Hangar Number 6, you were in Tunnel

14 Number 9; is that correct?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. And both of these boys are mentally retarded, aren't

17 they?

18 A. I didn't say that, but they didn't complete elementary

19 school. They were not very good students. They are

20 introverted. They didn't go to any special school for

21 mentally retarded people. They went to regular school,

22 which they did not finish. They finished it later on

23 as evening classes. They did their military service,

24 regular Yugoslav national service.

25 Q. Now, Mr. Dordic, I didn't ask you those questions just

Page 4277

1 then, but you and Ms McHenry had discussed this

2 potential subject coming up --

3 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Your question was that they were

4 mentally retarded.

5 JUDGE JAN: And your answer was they have done their

6 military service.

7 MS. McMURREY: But he also said he has never stated they

8 were mentally retarded before.


10 MS. McMURREY: Your Honour, could I have his statement from

11 1994 shown to him in Serbian, please?


13 MS. McMURREY: I don't have a copy of the Serbian version,

14 but in the English version I would like for impeachment

15 purposes to show him he stated under oath, where the

16 statement had been read back to him and he had an

17 opportunity to correct it, that the brothers are

18 retarded. I would like to have that document provided

19 to him in Serbian right now -- I mean in Bosnian, if I

20 could. Madam Residovic, do you have a copy of it? If

21 you don't mind --

22 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: I don't know what that means. Even

23 now all he is saying they have gone through all these

24 classes and then have had their military training.

25 Retarded persons cannot do all that.

Page 4278

1 MS. McMURREY: Well, your Honour, I believe his statement on

2 the record was that he had never said they were retarded

3 before. This is impeachment purposes. He did state

4 that in his sworn testimony before the judge in

5 Belgrade. So I would like to have the opportunity to

6 ask the usher to please show him his statement from

7 Belgrade in 1994.

8 MS. McHENRY: Your Honour, I don't object to him being shown

9 something. I will just clarify. As far as I know it

10 wasn't under oath and when he said he had never stated

11 that he was referring to today, but I certainly don't

12 have any objection to him being shown something for

13 impeachment purposes to clarify the matter.

14 MS. McMURREY: Thank you.

15 A. What page, please, so that I don't waste your time?

16 MS. McMURREY: Yes. It's a different page in the English

17 version, so I'm trying to find out what page it is in

18 your version. Would you please refer to page 13 of

19 your statement there, please? Page 13, fifth paragraph

20 down. I'm going to go read it in English and when they

21 translate to you in Bosnian, you tell me if this has

22 been interpreted correctly, please. The fifth

23 paragraph:

24 "When I arrived in Number 6 I saw my two

25 relatives, Veseljko and Vaso Dordic, who are retarded".

Page 4279

1 A. Gentlemen, maybe that is how it was noted in Belgrade.

2 I repeat again that when I made the statement in

3 Belgrade it was only fifteen days or so that I had left

4 the camp, so I can't claim anything like that, because

5 they didn't go to any special school. I can't claim

6 that they were retarded. If they didn't complete

7 elementary school, and I think that something is not

8 quite all right with them, because, after all,

9 elementary education was obligatory and they didn't

10 manage to complete it, though later on they did through

11 courses, evening classes, and they did their military

12 service normally, and they also worked normally. My

13 personal opinion is that they were at a lower

14 intellectual level.

15 Q. Did you say they were at a lower intellectual level.

16 Is that what you said?

17 JUDGE JAN: As compared to him. As compared to him.

18 MS. McMURREY: I just wanted to ask him to look at the first

19 page, too, that this was a document that was given by

20 him before a judge in the lower court in Belgrade on

21 October 17th, 1994; is that correct?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. At the time that you gave in a statement it was given in

24 Serbian and written in Serbian -- I mean Bosnian,

25 Serbo-Croatian, wasn't it?

Page 4280

1 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: I suppose this is his opinion?

2 A. Yes.

3 MR. McMURREY: You were read the statement back and you had

4 an opportunity to correct it, didn't you?

5 A. Yes, but maybe I didn't remember to correct that. I'm

6 not a doctor. How can I claim that anyone is mentally

7 retarded? It was just my opinion that they were at a

8 somewhat lower level than normal people.

9 Q. Okay. Let me go on to after you were released from

10 Celebici and taken to Musala, Mr. Landzo was a guard at

11 Musala, wasn't he?

12 A. I think so, yes.

13 Q. And while you were you never saw him beat anyone, did

14 you?

15 A. No. In Musala, no.

16 Q. In fact, as a prisoner at Musala you were given a lot of

17 freedom. You were allowed to work outside the prison,

18 were you not?

19 A. My actual position gave me freedom and if I did not have

20 the ability to do these things that I did, I wouldn't be

21 given any freedom, but I did move around because of the

22 job I was assigned to do in front of the prison.

23 Q. And the job that you were assigned to do was that you

24 repaired and worked on army and police automobiles,

25 didn't you?

Page 4281

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. And you saw Mr. Landzo every day while you were there at

3 Musala, didn't you?

4 A. Every day while he was a guard there I saw him. I

5 don't think he stayed there as a guard for long, but I

6 saw him later also, when he was a prisoner in Musala.

7 Q. While he was a guard there, he gave you some cigarettes

8 and an alcoholic drink and you all became friendly,

9 didn't you?

10 A. No.

11 Q. I'm sorry. I'm not hearing any interpretation at all.

12 A. On one occasion --

13 Q. I didn't hear any of that.

14 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness repeat, please?

15 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Kindly repeat your answer so that it

16 should be interpreted.

17 A. We were not friends at all while he was a guard, because

18 the director of the prison --

19 JUDGE KARIBI-WHITE: I am still not hearing the

20 interpretation?

21 A. Mr. Brocica --

22 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Let's hear.

23 THE INTERPRETER: Can you hear now? Can you hear now, your

24 Honour?

25 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Yes. Kindly let's hear your answer.

Page 4282

1 A. Thank you. I was saying that we were not friends while

2 he was a guard, because the manager explicitly

3 prohibited any mistreatment for me, because I'd move

4 around, but later when Landzo was imprisoned in the

5 sports hall, one floor below us, because at the time we

6 were on the second floor and they were on the ground

7 floor, Landzo behaved differently as compared to the

8 time when he was a guard in the camp. It is true that

9 he would give me cigarettes. I can't remember the

10 alcohol, but on one occasion he said that he admired all

11 Serbs who managed to survive camp Number 6 and Number 9

12 in Celebici.

13 Q. Mr. Dordic, you stated in your statement also that you

14 were in very poor condition when you were released and

15 that you gave the statement in 1994 that your memory was

16 not so good. Is that what you stated?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Then in your statement to the Prosecution you stated

19 also that so much time has passed that your memory

20 wasn't so accurate then either. Didn't you state that?

21 A. Yes. Considering that it is now, what, five years since

22 the events in the Celebici camp and there are so many

23 data to be given. So I apologise if something is not

24 absolutely correct. I'm not a computer to remember

25 absolutely every date and every name.

Page 4283

1 Q. Thank you, Mr. Dordic. I pass the witness, your

2 Honour.

3 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Thank you very much. I think we can

4 have a break for 30 minutes now and we will come back at

5 4.30.

6 (4.00 pm)

7 (Short break)

8 (4.35pm).

9 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Let's have the witness.

10 (Witness re-enters court)

11 Cross-examination by Mr. Greaves


13 MR. GREAVES: May it please your Honour, Mr. Dordic, I want

14 to ask you a few questions and I hope to be reasonably

15 quick, so we will finish as soon as possible with you;

16 all right?

17 A. Very well.

18 Q. Mr. Dordic, you have talked a little earlier on today

19 about the length of time that you were in detention all

20 told. Would it be right that, in fact, it came to a

21 total of about two and one-third years?

22 A. I'll tell you exactly the period. I don't know the

23 amount of time but between 30th May 1992 and 4th October

24 1994.

25 Q. And I've calculated that, and you can correct me if you

Page 4284

1 want to, but I think that's about two and one-third of a

2 year. Would that be about right? Would you accept

3 that?

4 A. Yes. Yes. Somewhere around there. I did not

5 calculate exactly.

6 Q. I don't want to take you back into the exact number of

7 days, Mr. Dordic, but I just want to establish the rough

8 period. Mr. Dordic, very shortly after your release you

9 went and gave a statement to the court at Belgrade

10 before Judge Semic, I think it was. Do you remember

11 doing that?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Help me about that: that was on 17th October 1994.

14 Would you accept that?

15 A. I think it was, yes.

16 Q. Would you also accept this: when you went to the court

17 in Belgrade and made that statement you were at the time

18 suffering from both physical illness and mental

19 illness? Would you accept that?

20 A. I cannot say that it was an illness, a mental illness,

21 but I have to say that in that period and the following

22 eight months after I was released from prison, I was

23 sleepless. Every night when I would go to sleep images

24 from the camp would come back, and for eight months I

25 basically did not sleep.

Page 4285

1 Q. I don't want to ask you about the physical

2 manifestations of ill health, Mr. Dordic, but can I just

3 pin you down to this: your health had been -- your

4 mental health had been seriously damaged at that time;

5 is that right?

6 A. By virtue of my not having enough sleep I was very

7 tired, and I had nightmares, which are recurring to

8 date, not as often, not as frequently as at that time,

9 but it happens when I'm reminded of these events.

10 Q. I'll do my best not to remind you too much of them,

11 Mr. Dordic, but I'm going to have to ask you one or two

12 questions, and I'm sure you don't mind that.

13 A. I don't.

14 Q. Thank you very much. That's very kind of you. Would

15 you help me, please, about this: was one of the

16 features of your being unwell during that period finding

17 that your memory was playing tricks with you and your

18 memory was not quite as accurate as it used to be?

19 A. Yes. That is for sure. My memory and my mental

20 capacity have been eroded by the events there. That is

21 the first trauma and the first tragedy and this is also

22 the first Tribunal before which I am appearing in my

23 life, so all that together.

24 Q. I want to make it plain to you that I'm not criticising

25 you in any way. You understand that, do you?

Page 4286

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. So the problems that you had with memory and so on, were

3 they at their worst in the eight months after your

4 release?

5 A. Yes. For the most part these problems took place in

6 that period. After that I started getting more sleep

7 and I started working and getting back to normal life,

8 and I think that today I am a regular person when I'm

9 not reminded of these events, when I'm out of touch --

10 when I'm not in touch with these issues, but every

11 reminder of my stay here, the people who were there as

12 prisoners and as witnesses, you know, leaves ugly

13 memories.

14 Q. So the problem hasn't entirely cleared up even now; is

15 that what you are saying to us?

16 A. Sir, if I had another 70 lives, regular human lives, I

17 don't think that I would be able to forget this, not all

18 of it. I'm forgetting details, but the essence of

19 everything that I went through that, I experienced, is

20 there to stay. It may just be pushed back into the

21 subconscious. It may not show up in regular life but

22 the essence is essence. I was humiliated there in

23 every respect, as a human being, as a person and

24 physically and health wise, and I can't forget that.

25 Q. I understand all that, Mr. Dordic, but can you just help

Page 4287

1 me about this: what you are saying is that you remember

2 the broad facts of what happened, but as regards details

3 of, for example, places and dates and people, that's

4 something where you can't be entirely accurate; is that

5 right?

6 A. As you yourself said, I was there for 28 months or

7 however long it was, and I cannot remember all details

8 at one time. There are -- there may not be a human

9 being on this planet who could be able to do that and

10 under the conditions that I was in. I remember the

11 things that I remember and I hope that you will not take

12 badly things that I cannot remember.

13 Q. Let me make it plain to you, Mr. Dordic, I'm not

14 criticising you in any way at all, but can I give you an

15 example of how serious mistakes can be made about dates

16 and so on? You initially told the Belgrade judge that

17 you had been released in October 1994 and then in a

18 subsequent statement you said you had been released in

19 December 1994. Do you remember making that mistake?

20 A. I think I have paper of the International Red Cross of

21 the date when I was exchanged. I think I actually have

22 it with me in The Hague. It states the date when I was

23 exchanged, that is released from the prison. The only

24 thing that comes to mind is that there must have been a

25 mistake, and the exact date is 4th -- it started on 4th

Page 4288

1 and it was completed by 6th, but in the release document

2 of the International Red Cross it states 4th October

3 1994.

4 Q. Yes. The place where you've told us that it was

5 December 1994 was the statement that you made to the

6 Office of the Prosecutor in January 1996 and you then

7 subsequently corrected it in a further statement. Do

8 you remember doing that, going back and correcting it?

9 A. I probably do remember. It must have been in Belgrade,

10 if I remember correctly.

11 Q. Well, will you accept from me that that's the sequence

12 of events?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Thank you. That's very kind, Mr. Dordic. Again, I

15 don't want to ask about physical difficulties that you

16 had but did you receive treatment from a doctor in

17 relation to your mental difficulties, the problems you

18 were having with nightmares and so on?

19 A. You mean when I came from the camp?

20 Q. Yes, after being released from the camp did you receive

21 some treatment for having nightmares and things like

22 that?

23 A. No. I only took sun (sic), which are some tablets, some

24 tranquillisers, because at that time I had some other

25 problems. I did not have a place to live. I did not

Page 4289

1 have a job. So I was not thinking whether I was

2 sleeping or not sleeping. I was more concerned about

3 what I was going to eat the next day, because we had

4 left everything -- we had lost everything in that war.

5 So I did not have time for that.

6 Q. Who did you get the drugs from? A doctor or a chemist's

7 or what?

8 A. Mostly from a pharmacist.

9 Q. But some you got from a doctor?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Who was the doctor? Can you tell us that, please?

12 A. The first once I received from Dr. -- this was still in

13 Konjic. Let me remember the name of him. That was in

14 the prison still. My memory is failing me right now.

15 A doctor who was a Muslim, and also from the Catholic

16 church in Konjic.

17 Q. I'm really interested in the period after your release

18 and going back to Serbia, Mr. Dordic. Can you remember

19 who the doctor was there who prescribed any drugs for

20 you?

21 A. It was Dr. Bjelica in Belgrade, in Bajanica Kosa, and

22 doctors in the city where I resided at the time.

23 Q. How long did you continue taking the drugs for,

24 Mr. Dordic?

25 A. I did not take them regularly, only when I felt the need

Page 4290

1 to take them, but basically over the period of eight

2 months, but not all the time. Just when I needed to, I

3 would take a pill.

4 Q. Have you had to take drugs since the period of eight

5 months has elapsed? Do you take drugs at all now for

6 the problems you have?

7 A. No.

8 Q. Can you help me about this: you mentioned Dr. Bjelica.

9 Have you had any contact with the Serbian refugee

10 organisation since your release from Celebici and

11 Musala?

12 A. What organisation do you have in mind specifically?

13 Q. Have you had any contact with any organisations that

14 purport to represent the interests of Serbian refugees?

15 A. When I first arrived in Belgrade, I went to my uncle,

16 who lived near New Belgrade. My sister took me to Dr.

17 Bjelica, myself and two cousins and a brother-in-law.

18 We all went to Dr. Bjelica, because Dr. Bjelica is from

19 our region. He was born in the Konjic area. So we

20 went and had a check-up there. He said that he --

21 nothing -- he couldn't help us with anything more than

22 these tablets for sleep, because it was too late to

23 treat all the other consequences. So he just gave us

24 these sleeping pills. That's it.

25 Q. Have you continued to have contact with Dr. Bjelica?

Page 4291

1 A. Yes. I met him several times in the Association of

2 Detainees in Belgrade.

3 Q. It is about the Association that I wanted to ask you.

4 When did you last meet Dr. Bjelica?

5 A. Last time it was about a month ago, when he was to come

6 here to testify before this Tribunal.

7 Q. And help us about this: where did you meet him?

8 A. Again, as I say, in the premises of this Association.

9 That is the place where we sort of come -- we come by

10 this place for information regarding our -- regarding

11 possibilities of our residence within the Federal

12 Republic of Yugoslavia and some humanitarian issues.

13 Q. Can you just tell us, this was the office of the

14 organisation in Belgrade proper or New Belgrade, or

15 where exactly?

16 A. This is in Belgrade proper.

17 Q. Is that the main offices of the organisation?

18 A. There is no other office. It's just one office. It's

19 not even our own. We just have it -- we're given it to

20 use for our meetings.

21 Q. Is it inside another building that's got another

22 organisation in it?

23 A. Yes, but I don't know what else is in there, what's

24 upstairs.

25 Q. Is it a government building, Mr. Dordic?

Page 4292

1 A. In Serbia most things are State or government-run. I

2 don't know this particular one. We are an association

3 of detainees and we are part of it, as well as people

4 who sympathise with our cause and who are trying to

5 assist and help us.

6 Q. Yes. Can you just tell us this, please: what is the

7 street name and street number in which the Association

8 meets?

9 MS. McHENRY: Your Honour, I don't -- if the witness knows,

10 I have no objection to his answering, but just I would

11 ask that it be in private session, just to make sure

12 that later on if there's some incident at the

13 association, it is not because its address was

14 publicised. So I have no objection, if the witness

15 knows, his stating that, but I would just ask that it be

16 done in private session.

17 MR. GREAVES: I am entirely in your Honour's hands. I

18 suspect it is probably information that is fairly easy

19 to come by but if my learned friend insists on it, it is

20 a matter for her and your Honours as well.

21 JUDGE KARIBI-WHITE: I never thought it was any secret

22 association, is it?

23 MS. McHENRY: It is definitely not a secret association,

24 I have no idea. They may well not object to us giving

25 it publicly. Just in case there would be some later on

Page 4293

1 harassment or something and then the Tribunal would be

2 criticised. Without then checking I don't know if it's

3 public or not. Just to be extra cautious, I think it's

4 advisable to have the actual address in private session.

5 MR. GREAVES: I am told by one of the computer buffs along

6 the line here they publish all their details on the

7 Internet. So I rather think it is a case of closing

8 the stable door after the horse has bolted many, many

9 months ago.

10 MS. McHENRY: If that's correct ... I have no information.

11 MR. GREAVES: I am desperate not to give information,

12 certainly not hearsay information from down the line.

13 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Except you have anything in particular

14 against the Association, I don't see the relevance of

15 all these questions.

16 MR. GREAVES: I am going to find out exactly what the nature

17 of his meetings with the good doctor are. Your Honour

18 will recall that we raised this matter a week ago. I

19 am entitled to investigate matters that relate to the

20 potential credibility or otherwise of witnesses.

21 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: You might have your way but I don't

22 see the real merit in it.

23 MR. GREAVES: If I'm wasting my time, then I'm terribly

24 sorry, but I would respectfully submit that it's

25 entirely relevant.

Page 4294

1 Mr. Dordic, what sort of things do you discuss when

2 you go to these meetings at the refugee organisation?

3 A. The thing is that the detainees would get together to

4 meet and the idea was to have a place where we could all

5 get together, because we are now scattered around the

6 globe, and also there are a number of people who want to

7 help us, and there is no other way. There is no other

8 form to assist us if not through an organisation, and if

9 they want to get in touch with somebody, and even this

10 Tribunal got in touch with the Association, and thanks

11 to this Association and to this phone line, otherwise it

12 would be very difficult to find even me in Serbia had it

13 not been for this Association.

14 Q. Could you just help us about the street address? I got

15 distracted for a moment. Can you tell us what the

16 street address is, please, in Belgrade?

17 A. If the Trial Chamber deems that this is necessary, I am

18 prepared to say it.

19 Q. I would like you to answer, please, unless I'm stopped

20 from so doing.

21 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: You can tell him the number, for what

22 it is worth.

23 MS. McHENRY: Can I just add that if the witness has

24 information indicating that the address is confidential,

25 he can then ask for it to be in private session.

Page 4295

1 I have no information one way or the other.

2 A. You mean the street number where the Association office

3 is?

4 MR. GREAVES: Yes, please, Mr. Dordic.

5 A. The number is 101.

6 Q. And the street name?

7 A. Keneza Milosza, Prince Milosz.

8 Q. I would like you to look at three pictures please and

9 tell us if you know the people in them. These are

10 photographs that I have shown to my learned friend

11 Ms McHenry. if I can make this plain what these are,

12 these are scanned images from the video that your

13 Honours saw last week.

14 Mr. Dordic, I would just like you to look at each

15 of the photographs in turn, please. (Handed) do you

16 recognise that person?

17 A. Yes. It's written there very well. It's Dr. Bjelica.

18 Q. We like to try to make the questions easy, Mr. Dordic.

19 All right?

20 A. Thank you very much.

21 Q. Look at the second photograph, please. Do you

22 recognise that lady?

23 A. It is even clearer here. The letters are even clearer.

24 Q. What is the name of that person?

25 A. Mr.s Dusitsa Bojic.

Page 4296

1 Q. Have you ever met her?

2 A. Several times I have been with her.

3 Q. Look at the third photograph, please: I think his name

4 is Starsivic; is that right?

5 A. Mirdrak Starsivic. Again the name is written down. I

6 met him only once.

7 Q. When was that?

8 A. Only once. Recently in Belgrade, I think. As for Mr.s

9 Bojic, we have become very good friends and she has

10 helped me a great deal in finding my way round in

11 Yugoslavia.

12 Q. During the course of these various meetings that you

13 have had with representatives of that organisation,

14 Mr. Dordic, have you discussed the evidence that other

15 people have already given in this case at any time?

16 A. No, we don't have that much time. When I go to the

17 Association I spend half an hour, have a cup of coffee,

18 enquire about things I personally am interested in, like

19 my status in Yugoslavia, and other things of a

20 humanitarian nature. I don't spend that much time

21 there to be able to discuss our testimonies.

22 Q. Have you ever seen anybody else discussing their future

23 evidence with the people at the organisation, Mr. Dordic?

24 A. No.

25 Q. Have you ever been to Romania, Mr. Dordic?

Page 4297

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. When did you go to Romania?

3 A. When we were giving that statement for Mr. Bart.

4 Q. Whereabouts in Romania did you go to?

5 A. To the town of Timosoira.

6 Q. How many people went there?

7 A. I don't know exactly but all people who had evidence to

8 give. I think about fifteen of us. I don't know the

9 exact number.

10 Q. When you saw Dr. Bjelica about a month ago, did you talk

11 about the case with him?

12 A. No.

13 Q. Not at all?

14 A. No. Basically no. He said that he was going too. I

15 didn't have time. As I said, I have started to work

16 and to lead a normal life in Yugoslavia, so that I don't

17 have time for ...

18 Q. Let's move on to another topic, please. I want to ask

19 you about Mr. Mucic and some of your dealings with him.

20 You saw him approximately 20 times in all at the camp;

21 is that right?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Normally at the entrance to whichever building it was

24 you were being kept in at the time?

25 A. Yes, or at the entrance, or if I was going out.

Page 4298

1 Q. And was that invariably day-time?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. And your evidence last week was this, but can we just

4 recap on it, please: you said when he was in the camp

5 there was discipline; is that right?

6 A. Yes. Much greater discipline.

7 Q. And when he was in the camp, no-one came in to beat you

8 or to mistreat you. That's right, isn't?

9 A. I think after all that Mr. Mucic was present at one

10 beating-up in this canal in front of building Number

11 9. He wasn't very close. He wasn't on the spot, but

12 he was a bit further removed, and a guard -- I think his

13 name was Buric, he filmed the beatings that we were

14 getting with a camera.

15 Q. Well, Mr. Dordic, you said to their Honours that you

16 think that that's the case, but you're not sure, are

17 you?

18 A. I'm saying that it is difficult to be sure of something

19 while you're being beaten. I can't claim 100 per cent

20 that he was there, but it seemed to me that it was him.

21 Q. The reason you told us last week that: "When he was in

22 the camp, no-one came in to beat us", the reason was

23 this: there were groups of people who would go into the

24 camp, such as MUP and the HVO and a group called Agrepi;

25 is that right? They were the people that would beat

Page 4299

1 people?

2 A. Probably in Building Number 6. In Number 9 at the very

3 beginning some very strong people would come in, saying

4 that they came from Grude. They beat Velimir and

5 Desimir Mrkajic outside, but Mucic was not with them.

6 Q. I want to ask you now about the incident at the manhole

7 that you have told us about. It is right, isn't it,

8 that you were unconscious through a lot of that

9 incident. Would you accept that?

10 A. That is logical, as I had no air down there. When I

11 came out, I came to and I felt them beating me again,

12 and I saw Mucic. He was there.

13 Q. Well, you have told us in evidence last week that you

14 were not fully aware of what was going on because of the

15 lack of oxygen, Mr. Dordic, and that's the case, isn't

16 it? You didn't know fully what was going on around you?

17 A. Yes, but I said when I came out I got oxygen. This was

18 a little later, maybe ten minutes later.

19 Q. You became hysterical, then a panic attack; is that

20 right?

21 A. Yes, it is normal.

22 Q. You see, I suggest to you that you have entirely

23 mistaken the presence of Mr. Mucic at any such incident,

24 Mr. Dordic?

25 A. I don't know, but I think there must be other witnesses

Page 4300

1 who can testify to that.

2 Q. Would you accept that you may be wrong about Mr. Mucic's

3 presence in that incident, Mr. Dordic?

4 A. I think that I am not wrong.

5 Q. But you may be?

6 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: How many times will you ask that?

7 MS. McHENRY: I object. He stated that he saw Mr. Mucic

8 there.

9 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: He has confirmed it. You don't have

10 to follow that up.

11 A. Maybe I wasn't even alive over there.

12 MR. GREAVES: Finally, Mr. Dordic, the incident where you say

13 you went to work at Mr. Mucic's house, do you accept that

14 in none of the three statements that you made did you

15 relate that incident?

16 A. I don't remember whether I mentioned it in my

17 statements, but I remember well. If you want me to, I

18 can explain the details. I remember well the well

19 equipped garage belonging to Mucic, which I saw open

20 when I was there and Mr. Mucic, who was just woken up,

21 and he came out. I think my brother was present.

22 Q. Mr. Dordic, the question I asked you was: do you accept

23 that you had not mentioned it in any of the statements

24 that you had made?

25 MS. McHENRY: Asked and answered. The witness says he

Page 4301

1 doesn't remember if he mentioned it in the prior

2 statements.

3 MR. GREAVES: Was the first time that you had ever mentioned

4 it today in effect, wasn't it, or have you discussed it

5 with Mr.s McHenry before?

6 MS. McHENRY: Objection. The witness has just stated he

7 doesn't remember if he even mentioned it in his

8 statement, so I think to ask him when exactly the first

9 time he mentioned it is not fair. He has already said

10 he doesn't remember exactly if and when he first

11 mentioned it.

12 MR. GREAVES: All right. I have no further questions.

13 Thank you very much.

14 A. You're welcome.

15 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Any other cross-examination?

16 Cross-examination by Ms Residovic

17 MS. RESIDOVIC (in interpretation): I apologise, your

18 Honours: I'll put my papers on the rostrum as soon as I

19 put on my headphones. Your Honours, if I may continue.

20 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Yes. The witness is available to

21 you.

22 MS. RESIDOVIC (in interpretation): Thank you. Good

23 afternoon, Mr. Dordic?

24 A. Good afternoon.

25 Q. My name is Edina Residovic. I am defence counsel for

Page 4302

1 Mr. Zejnil Delalic.

2 A. Pleased to meet you.

3 Q. I know you must be tired from our questions by now. My

4 colleagues have asked you many of the questions that I

5 wanted to ask you, so that they have facilitated the

6 task for both you and me, and therefore I would like to

7 ask you to answer the questions I put to you, if you

8 can, as concisely and as clearly as possible. In

9 answer to a question from the Prosecution you gave some

10 personal information about yourself?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Will you please tell me whether it is correct that you

13 are the son of Simo and Radoika and your mother's

14 surname was Ivazic, that you were born on December 31st,

15 1968 in Konjic?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. That you are an electronics technician?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. And that until the war you worked in the railway

20 enterprise Sarajevo, the work unit at Bradina?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. So these are your complete personal data?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. In answer to questions put to you by my colleagues you

25 said that you were very familiar with Bradina, so that

Page 4303

1 you know every stone, as you yourself said today; is

2 that correct?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. You had members of the family, relatives in Bradina and

5 friends?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. And you knew many people personally in Bradina; is that

8 so?

9 A. More or less everyone.

10 Q. Therefore, when on April 24th you came to Bradina, you

11 came among friends and you had where to stay, you had a

12 place to stay?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. You have also testified that when you came to Bradina on

15 April 24th, the barricades had already been put up on

16 the surrounding hills and in Bradina?

17 A. Guard, watch duty. Watch duty, yes, not barricades.

18 The difference is considerable and I must say that

19 everyone could pass through those barricades, as you

20 call them, on condition that they were unarmed, but arms

21 could not pass through those points. These points were

22 just for control purposes. There were two points on

23 the highway.

24 Q. Yes. That is exactly what I wanted to ask you.

25 Therefore, at both checkpoints or rather barricades on

Page 4304

1 the main road, which you had under your control,

2 representatives of the Territorial Defence, the police

3 or armed citizens could not pass by; is that correct?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. In answer to a question from the Prosecution you said

6 that while keeping watch duty you were armed?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. And you clarified that point?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. For the same reasons all others who were on watch duty

11 were also armed; is that correct?

12 A. For reasons of personal security, yes.

13 Q. Thank you. You answered also that a kind of defence

14 had been organised in Bradina and that heading it was

15 Rajko Dordic?

16 A. Yes, it was the self-organisation of the people as a

17 struggle for their survival.

18 Q. Yes. The people elected a crisis staff of Bradina; is

19 that so?

20 A. Probably.

21 Q. In answer to one of the questions you mentioned the

22 names of Vaso Vujicic, Dragan Vujicic and Vukasin

23 Mrkajic?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Those are people that you know personally; is that

Page 4305

1 correct?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. You know personally that Vukasin Mrkajic was President

4 of the SDS of Bradina?

5 A. Yes, I heard that he was.

6 Q. Though, as you said, you did not attend meetings, you

7 knew that these persons that you mentioned from personal

8 contacts with them were part of the leadership of the

9 Defence of Bradina; is that correct?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Thank you. I should like to ask with the help of the

12 Registry if you could show this name to the Prosecution

13 and then to the witness in view of the fact that it is a

14 protected witness, so I do not wish to mention him by

15 name. (Handed to Prosecution and witness) Until this

16 name is shown to you may I ask: is it correct that

17 Bradina is on the main highway between Konjic and

18 Sarajevo?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. And that stopping the traffic prevents the normal flow

21 of traffic from Sarajevo to Konjic and vice versa?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. This witness K, according to your personal knowledge,

24 was a member of the crisis staff in Bradina?

25 A. Probably. I'm not 100 per cent sure.

Page 4306

1 Q. You confirmed that watch duty was kept all around

2 Bradina in an area of about 20 kms?

3 A. Yes, the circle around Bradina. If one were to draw it

4 out into a straight line I think it would be about 20

5 kms.

6 Q. And all the people who were keeping watch duty were

7 armed?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. In your statement to the Prosecution in January 1996 in

10 Timosoira you stated that Bradina was attacked for the

11 first time on May 13th and that as far as you know, the

12 Commander of that attack was Stranko Zovko; is that

13 true?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. May I say he is a commander of HVO based in Podrazic?

16 A. That is what I learned about him but let me tell you

17 what prompted the people most to organise the Defence of

18 Bradina. After the meeting of the crisis staff in

19 Podrazic held with Mr. Zovko and I don't know who else,

20 Zovko stated allowed -- at least that's what I heard --

21 that he would burn down Bradina, that not a stone would

22 be left unturned in Bradina.

23 Q. Thank you. Probably after that you started digging the

24 trenches that you referred to this morning and to

25 prepare yourself more seriously for the Defence of

Page 4307

1 Bradina; is that true?

2 A. I personally was a witness not of military activities

3 but civilian activities in Zukici next to my house. I

4 personally witnessed an ordinary transport truck of -- a

5 FAP truck that was transporting weapons below my house

6 and driving the weapons away to a point from where

7 Bradina could be attacked. So I personally observed

8 this, and all this prompted me to seek shelter, because

9 it was not normal to see so many weapons in the hands of

10 another ethnic group, and nobody warned me or offered or

11 invited me to join any kind of army or defence against I

12 don't know whom and I don't know what from among the

13 Muslims.

14 Q. Mr. Kuljanin (sic), when you reached Bradina on 24th, for

15 some time you continued working at the railways; is that

16 correct?

17 A. Yes, but I apologise. You made a lapse. My name is

18 not Kuljanin. I'm Dordic.

19 Q. I apologise. I'm sorry, Mr. Dordic. For some time you

20 continued working at the railways?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. And you were living and staying at your friend's house,

23 Janko Glogovaz?

24 A. Janko Glogovaz is probably known to everyone. He was a

25 teacher in the elementary school in Bradina.

Page 4308

1 Q. You said that the rail transportation ceased on 21st

2 April?

3 A. Whether the date is correct I can't say but somewhere

4 around then, yes.

5 Q. Do you know why the traffic came to a halt?

6 A. Because war operations start in Sarajevo of major

7 proportions.

8 Q. Mr. Dordic, you also confirmed that you learned from the

9 radio of significant military operations in Sarajevo and

10 Mostar; is that correct?

11 A. No. One could hear it very well in Bradina and Ivan

12 Sedlo, because we couldn't -- we didn't have electricity

13 for a long time. We were switched off, so we couldn't

14 listen to the radio.

15 Q. You also stated that in the area where you were keeping

16 watch duty you had dug ten trenches. In an earlier

17 statement it was 12 but that isn't important. Is that

18 correct?

19 A. I didn't dig ten. I dug out one for myself.

20 Q. Yes, you did dig out one but you said in that area there

21 were about ten trenches. Other local people keeping

22 watch duty in other areas in this total area of some 20

23 kms were also digging similar trenches; is that correct?

24 A. Whoever had any common sense and who wanted to protect

25 oneself from the attacks of the other side probably

Page 4309

1 did. I wasn't there, but I only know what happened

2 where I was.

3 Q. You were digging this trench for yourself, for an

4 upright position, in the village of Veloviz near Zukici?

5 A. It's not a village; it's a locality.

6 Q. Yes, but it is in the direction of Zukici going from

7 Bradina?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Tell me where did you normally keep watch duty?

10 A. I said there.

11 Q. So during the battles from 25th-26th May you were there,

12 too?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. You heard that the defence line had been broken through,

15 so with Mladen Dordic and Dusko Koprivitsa, you headed

16 for the centre of Bradina at first; is that true?

17 A. Yes. We were left alone and we fled towards Bradina.

18 We saw there was no-one else and so we fled towards the

19 centre of Bradina. That is correct.

20 Q. And you disarmed there two TO members from your village,

21 but after some shooting you threw away their weapons and

22 they went off?

23 A. I think that is not correct. They were two of my

24 friends, two neighbours from Zukici, Javo Adam and

25 Alvadin Resvanovic. I'm not concealing their names.

Page 4310

1 We were drinking water at a stream and they came up to

2 us. It is true we have took their weapons away. We

3 were afraid that they might use them against us. We

4 sat down. If you don't believe me, ask them. We lit

5 some cigarettes taken from them. They were called

6 York, of Croatian manufacture. Somebody had brought

7 them in. We didn't have any cigarettes in Bradina for

8 some time. We sat down and we talked. Me and Adam

9 Javo were very good friends. I asked: "Why did all of

10 this have to happen?" He was in a panic just like me.

11 He didn't believe everything that was happening or at

12 least that was the impression I had, that he was

13 confused. So we had a cigarette each. We picked up

14 our weapons. They went in the direction of Zukici and

15 we headed for Bradina. We threw away the weapons, that

16 is true, and some of them or some other military people

17 threw a bomb or a shell fell very near us. Anyway I

18 don't know. In any event we ran.

19 Q. Also, Mr. Dordic, you stated this morning that as far as

20 you were able to notice, the strength of the attack

21 during the battle was directed towards one part of the

22 positions and that there was a lot of noise to

23 intimidate your forces; is that what you said?

24 A. Yes, but the noise was concentrated in the centre of the

25 village of Bradina and the inhabited areas, so that

Page 4311

1 there were few houses that were spared shelling, so that

2 it was exclusively inhabited places that were shelled,

3 that were targeted, places where civilians live

4 normally.

5 Q. Mr. Dordic, though you were a commander of a detachment

6 you said that during that battle you did not take part

7 in the fighting?

8 A. I didn't understand very well.

9 Q. You were a commander of a squad?

10 A. No, that is not true.

11 Q. I apologise.

12 A. Will you show me the document where this is stated?

13 Q. You have just told us that orders were given by word of

14 mouth?

15 A. Yes, but I was not a commander. There were no

16 commanders.

17 Q. Is it true that Dragan Vujicic was a detachment-platoon

18 commander?

19 A. He was the person who transferred information in that

20 area around the railway station.

21 Q. And Nedjo Dragultenovic was the Commander of a company?

22 A. Probably.

23 Q. Of a detachment. Though there were 350 of you, as you

24 said this morning, you managed to resist this attack for

25 48 hours; is that correct?

Page 4312

1 A. We didn't hold back. It was not us. First of all,

2 there was the artillery fire, which beat and hit the

3 hills and increasingly the inhabited places, and it was

4 out of fear, I think, that the attack went on for 48

5 hours. I think, though I am not a military expert, but

6 to have so many people and being armed as they were,

7 they could have defeated us and entered the town in a

8 couple of hours. I think they feared entering Bradina.

9 Q. Mr. Dordic, you also said that you did your military

10 service in the JNA and that you were in a communications

11 unit?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. You probably know much more about military information

14 than I might know, because women in our country did not

15 do any military service?

16 A. Yes, except exceptionally.

17 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: How long do you think we should

18 continue? I didn't expect you to go as far as that.

19 MS. RESIDOVIC (in interpretation): Your Honours, if we stay

20 until 6 o'clock I will finish my cross-examination and I

21 think perhaps it would be a good idea to finish with

22 this witness today.

23 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: I think so. That's why I want to

24 assess how long you will take. You would like to

25 finish with him today.

Page 4313

1 MS. RESIDOVIC (in interpretation): Thank you. Therefore,

2 as far as you know, and you certainly do know that

3 operational and tactical groups in the JNA were

4 exclusively linked to combat operations on the front; is

5 that true?

6 A. To tell you the truth, I do not know much about military

7 tactics. I learned more from my experience in the camp

8 and later on when I was in Musala, more from that

9 experience than from my military service. I had

10 infantry training for only 20 days in the army.

11 Q. But you certainly knew from what you learned then and

12 later that operational groups do not have anything to do

13 with camps?

14 MS. McHENRY: Your Honour, I'm going to object. This

15 witness has already stated he is not a military expert,

16 so I object to further questioning about this.

17 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Thank you very much.

18 MS. RESIDOVIC (in interpretation): Mr. Dordic, since you

19 were a detainee in Celebici, you stated -- there was a

20 problem with my interpretation. I all of a sudden got

21 it in English. Now I can't hear anything. Let's try

22 again. I think that I lost my interpretation.

23 Mr. Dordic, this morning you stated that as a

24 detainee you did not have any opportunity to know what

25 people in Konjic ate?

Page 4314

1 A. Yes, but I knew very well the guards ate quite well.

2 Q. But my question was --

3 A. If I can only say this --

4 Q. But you, Mr. Dordic, did not have any information about

5 what people in Konjic did?

6 A. For the most part, no. Only as related by the

7 guards. That's how I found something out.

8 Q. Personally you did not have information about who was

9 where and who was in what duty in Konjic. You didn't

10 know any of that?

11 A. No.

12 Q. Mr. Dordic, you said that you learned some things from

13 Zaro Mrkajic. Can you tell us whether Zaro Mrkajic was

14 also a detainee in the camp?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Zaro Mrkajic, just like you, was not free to move around

17 Konjic?

18 A. Correct.

19 Q. Please if you could just answer my questions, maybe Zaro

20 Mrkajic had an opportunity to contact other persons

21 within the camp; is that correct?

22 A. Yes, with all persons in the camp.

23 Q. Zaro Mrkajic also could get information from some third

24 persons; correct?

25 A. Yes.

Page 4315

1 Q. Is it correct that what you heard from Zaro Mrkajic is

2 something that he heard from third persons; correct?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. In other words, what Zaro Mrkajic told you are neither

5 your personal knowledge nor the personal knowledge of

6 Zaro Mrkajic?

7 A. Yes, but I --

8 Q. Well, thank you. That's enough, Mr. --

9 MS. McHENRY: Excuse me. Could I just ask that the witness

10 be permitted to finish his answer. It's not exactly

11 clear to me because of the high speed, but to the extent

12 that he has been cut off, for instance, with respect to

13 the last question, I would ask that he be allowed to

14 complete his answer.

15 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: What was the last question? Can you

16 repeat it?

17 MS. RESIDOVIC (in interpretation): Yes, I can. Mr. Dordic,

18 your knowledge is not personally knowledge. You

19 acquired them by hearing them from detainees, from Zaro

20 Mrkajic, who also did not have personal knowledge but

21 most probably heard of these things from third

22 persons. Can you please answer this question with a

23 "yes" or a "no"? Please just say "yes" or "no".

24 A. How can I answer "yes" or "no"? If you will allow me

25 just to explain, your Honours, to clarify this yes or

Page 4316

1 no.

2 Q. I'm asking to you answer me with "yes" or "no". First

3 of all, you said that Zaro Mrkajic did not have any

4 personal knowledge?

5 MS. McHENRY: I am going to strenuously object. The

6 witness has stated that he cannot fairly answer the

7 question with a "yes" or "no". I strenuously object to

8 the witness then being forced to do so. He must be

9 allowed to give your Honours a full answer. This

10 witness has answered large numbers of questions with a

11 "yes" or "no" answer. This question he stated he

12 cannot fairly do so, and I think it's improper for

13 defence counsel to direct him to do so.

14 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: I think it is proper for counsel to

15 observe the answers of witnesses is meant for the Trial

16 Chamber. It's not for the personal consumption of

17 counsel which are defence or Prosecution. All the

18 answers are directed towards the administration of

19 justice in this case. So where it is necessary to

20 elaborate on an answer, I suppose it is better to leave

21 him to do so. I agree in most cases you might prefer a

22 "yes" or "no" answer, but there are cases where perhaps

23 the witness might not be able to do that. So you don't

24 have to press him too hard.

25 MS. RESIDOVIC (in interpretation): Your Honours,

Page 4317

1 I apologise if the witness or you had an impression that

2 this was forced. As defence counsel of Zejnil Delalic

3 I am interested in finding out the truth. It is in

4 that regard that I'm asking my questions. So if you

5 will allow me, I will re-state the question one more

6 time. Maybe it will facilitate his answer.

7 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: I think so. To get an answer, you can

8 still do so.

9 MS. RESIDOVIC (in interpretation): Mr. Dordic, Zaro Mrkajic

10 is a detainee who had contacts with some -- with certain

11 persons within the camp; is that correct?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. He did not have freedom of movement outside of the

14 Celebici camp; is that correct?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. He did not have personal knowledge about persons and

17 their duties in Konjic itself; is that correct?

18 A. Again, your Honours, may I have the permission to

19 clarify this?

20 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Yes, you can do so.

21 A. Thank you, your Honours. Zaro Mrkajic is a detainee

22 who could -- who was allowed to contact with

23 everybody. I personally saw him talking to everybody,

24 to Pavo Mucic, with Hazim Delic, with all the guards,

25 and the knowledge, the information that he passed on to

Page 4318

1 us was probably right, because -- and they are probably

2 the words that he got from these people.

3 MS. RESIDOVIC (in interpretation): In other words,

4 Mr. Dordic, you assumed that Mr. Zaro Mrkajic found out

5 the things that he told you from persons with whom he

6 had contact in the prison; is that correct?

7 A. Not certain persons but the very persons who were in the

8 administration of the camp and the guards.

9 Q. This is your assumption; correct?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Mr. Dordic, tell me whether in our language the word

12 "boss" also stands for somebody who is well off?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. You mentioned that the guard Macic mentioned to you with

15 respect of the missing food that the boss Delalic

16 arrived, that is you believed that he was referring to

17 Delalic?

18 A. As far as I remember, he said "boss Delalic".

19 Q. Mr. Dordic, you said that Mr. Delalic had a disco club in

20 Konjic before the war; is that correct?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. You also know that he was a well-off person?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Thank you. If you'll allow me, I will move on to

25 another area of questioning relating to your departure

Page 4319

1 from Bradina. With a group which included, as you said

2 this morning, Mladen Dordic, Mirko Stravko, Radovan and

3 Damian Dordic you left Bradina; is that correct?

4 A. Yes, I think we were even more.

5 Q. May I assist you there? Radko, Jelenko and Mladen

6 Kuljanin were also there?

7 A. Yes. Thank you very much for that reminder.

8 Q. Also Zaro Mrkajic was among them?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. And it is also correct that until May 30th in difficult

11 conditions with sleeplessness and without food you spent

12 looking for a way to Kalinovic?

13 A. A road to salvation and it wasn't so much Kalinovic.

14 When we looked back we saw Bradina in flames, so we had

15 no place to turn back to.

16 Q. Mr. Dordic, before your surrender or turning over of

17 weapons or capture, however you would like to define it,

18 following May 30th, the afternoon -- until the afternoon

19 of 31st May, when you arrived in Celebici, according to

20 your own testimony you spent over 24 hours travelling

21 there, and all this time you were subject to torture and

22 mistreatment?

23 A. Yes, and if your Honours will allow me to clarify this

24 and prove the truthfulness of what I have to say --

25 Q. In Ljuta, Sabici, throughout this journey in Zepe,

Page 4320

1 Verdulija you were beaten with different objects and

2 also kicked with boots and with anything that was at

3 hand?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Is it true that in your previous statement you stated

6 that most people were already unconscious and beaten up?

7 A. I cannot say that we were beaten unconscious when we

8 were pretty much all standing up on our feet and

9 receiving more beatings. You cannot call this an

10 unconscious state. It is -- you can call it that we

11 were in a state of besides ourselves.

12 Q. The Serbian language is fairly rich in these

13 expressions. What I quoted here was because it had not

14 been transmitted to me very precisely what you had

15 actually said at that time.

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Mr. Dordic, you stayed in Celebici until -- can you

18 please help us and tell us when you -- how late you

19 stayed in Celebici before you moved to Musala?

20 A. I think it was late October or early November. I think

21 that the date was 17th. It was something 17th. I

22 don't know if it was October or November. It just

23 popped in my mind now.

24 Q. So you will agree with me that for your lack of ability

25 to recall the date when questioned in Belgrade before

Page 4321

1 the investigating magistrate as well as today, you gave

2 different dates of your transfer from Celebici to

3 Musala. In some instances you said it was October and in

4 some you said it was November; is that correct?

5 A. I did not claim with certainty that it was one or the

6 other. I just said that it was around there. I was

7 the next to last group that was moved from Celebici to

8 Musala.

9 Q. You also clarified before the Trial Chamber, Mr. Dordic,

10 why you have lapses in memory with respect to the

11 statement you gave on 17th October 1994 in front of the

12 judge in Belgrade. Could you tell me, Mr. Dordic,

13 whether at that time you were questioned for about four

14 hours?

15 A. I'm sorry. I apologise. I didn't hear when?

16 Q. Before Judge Semic in Belgrade on 17th November 1994.

17 A. I think it was even longer than four hours. I think it

18 could have been more like six hours.

19 Q. If the statement says that it started at 1.20 and was --

20 and finished in 4.50, then maybe what was written down

21 reflects shorter period of time than was the actual time

22 of your questioning?

23 A. They did not take into account the breaks that we had

24 taken.

25 Q. You were reminded that you were under obligation to seek

Page 4322

1 the truth and that the consequences of speaking untruths

2 was a criminal offence?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. And in this statement you have mentioned a number of

5 persons and individuals from Konjic; is that correct?

6 A. It is probably so.

7 Q. You also knew the duties that they were discharging at

8 the time?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. In that statement you never mentioned Zejnil Delalic; is

11 that correct?

12 A. I don't remember. I may have.

13 Q. If you would like to refresh your memory, I could

14 produce this statement for you to look at, but if I say

15 so, will you agree with me?

16 A. I do.

17 Q. And also you never knew personally Zejnil Delalic before

18 the war. You only knew of him as the owner of the

19 disco club?

20 A. Yes. I knew his face, but never knew him in person.

21 I had never met him in person.

22 Q. You mentioned Mr. Delalic for the first time in Timosoira

23 because the investigator d'Hooge asked you about him?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. At that time you said that he was a Mafioso?

Page 4323

1 A. That was the story that was circling around before the

2 war on the eve of the war, that he spent a lot of time

3 in Austria and that he was engaged in all kinds of shady

4 dealings.

5 Q. Thank you. After your release from the prison you, as

6 you already stated, said that you were -- you had the

7 opportunity to visit repeatedly the offices of the

8 Association of Detainees?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. And a number of you gave statements in Timosoira?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. You knew that the Prosecutor of the International

13 Tribunal had issued an indictment which included

14 Mr. Delalic?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. The press in Serbia as well as the television there

17 frequently covered the work of the Tribunal?

18 A. No, I don't recall any of the broadcasts, but

19 informations from here did make it to the television.

20 Q. And from these sources later you found out about the

21 duty, the post that Mr. Delalic had?

22 A. The information I had, this was information I acquired

23 in the Celebici camp and the Musala camp, as I

24 mentioned.

25 Q. Mr. Dordic, you were questioned for the first time in

Page 4324

1 Celebici and you said that you were questioned by Stenek

2 and Niksic?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. This statement was dictated to you and was taken down by

5 Ismeta Postna, who was the stenographer and you

6 described how you signed it?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. You answered truthfully the questions that were asked of

9 you?

10 A. If I recall correctly, I made an effort to speak the

11 truth.

12 Q. And all this was typed up in your statement?

13 A. I cannot say that I have listened or read this statement

14 because, as you yourself said, we were -- I am conscious

15 that's not what I said, but we were sort of beside

16 ourselves. We were in constant fear of being beaten,

17 because there was a huge fellow standing behind me

18 throughout the taking of this statement.

19 Q. You said that you gave the statement the first day you

20 arrived?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. After that you never gave a statement in Celebici?

23 A. No.

24 Q. The next statement you gave in January 1993, when you

25 were in Musala?

Page 4325

1 A. I apologise but I don't recall this statement.

2 Q. When asked by my colleague McMurrey, you said that this

3 was the fourth statement, if that is the statement?

4 A. No. No. No. Please, there was a statement in

5 Celebici. That was the first one. The second one was

6 in the court in Belgrade. The third one in Timosoira

7 and then the fourth one in Belgrade. Those are the

8 four statements.

9 Q. I have four -- I have enough statements here, so I would

10 like to have the witness be given this statement with

11 his own signature and I have additional copies for the

12 Prosecution and for the Trial Chamber. (Handed). The

13 second statement, which can be given to the witness is

14 the one given to the military commission of the 4th

15 Corps in Konjic. While this is being processed,

16 Mr. Dordic, as you confirmed, you were in buildings

17 Number 6, Number 9. You were interrogated in the

18 administration building and across from it was Building

19 Number 22, and later you also said that you were

20 unloading some things in the building where the

21 logistics centre of the army was?

22 A. Yes, but that was just food and weapons.

23 Q. In other words, you know the Celebici camp?

24 A. Yes, I became familiar with it while I was there.

25 Q. So the structure that we see there, this is over a

Page 4326

1 square area that is several thousand square metres

2 large?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. And there are significant logistical facilities of the

5 army of Bosnia-Herzegovina that are housed there?

6 A. Probably.

7 Q. With respect to the period of time that you spent in

8 Celebici, you must have seen that a number of trucks

9 arrived there as well as personnel, people that you

10 didn't know, and people who had something to do with the

11 delivery of food supplies and other stuff to these

12 barracks?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Now, can you please look at the statement from Celebici

15 and see if this is your signature?

16 A. Yes, that is probably my handwriting.

17 Q. Would you please look at the statement dated 12/1/1993,

18 for which you told my colleague McMurrey that you

19 remembered it?

20 A. Hold on. I think that we had a big misunderstanding a

21 while ago. I think you said the statement from Musala.

22 Q. What I meant was at that time you were at Musala?

23 A. Then we did not understand each other. What I said is

24 that I gave a statement in Celebici. I do not deny

25 that, but I did not give any statement in Musala.

Page 4327

1 Q. Please, the other statement. Maybe the place where you

2 gave it is a different place, but at that time you were

3 at Musala. Is this your signature?

4 A. Yes. But I don't recall this statement.

5 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Actually what he says about these four

6 statements doesn't make any difference. If these

7 statements were made, they were made. Except you want

8 to contradict him on any of the statements, there's no

9 need for pressing the number of statements he made.

10 It's your case. I'm not interfering with the way you

11 conduct it. I don't see any benefit from this.

12 MS. RESIDOVIC (in interpretation): You were, the witness

13 stated correctly how many times he gave statements and

14 answered questions regarding the criminal proceedings

15 against him. Since these documents speak to other

16 matters, I wanted for the credibility of the witness'

17 sake as well as other questions, and I only have a few

18 more questions here, I just wanted to complete the

19 identification of all the statements that he had

20 given.

21 Mr. Dordic in your statement before the judge from

22 Belgrade you said that you were interrogated by some

23 policemen from Sarajevo; is that correct?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. At the time you wrote a statement without any coercion;

Page 4328

1 is that correct?

2 A. No. I didn't make any statement. We just spoke about

3 some things that had happened after we were detained.

4 Q. Can I show the witness for the sake of identification

5 his statement of 6th June 1993?

6 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Yes, show it.

7 MS. McHENRY: The Prosecution would like a copy also:

8 MS. RESIDOVIC (in interpretation): A copy for the

9 witness. (Handed). Do you recall this statement,

10 Mr. Dordic?

11 A. Just a moment, please: (Pause). It looks like my

12 handwriting but I can't recall at this moment whom I

13 gave this statement to.

14 Q. But you recognise your signature and your handwriting?

15 A. It looks like mine, which doesn't mean to say that it

16 cannot be a forgery.

17 Q. Thank you. Are you aware of the fact that criminal

18 charges were brought against you before the military

19 Tribunal, department of Konjic, for unauthorised

20 possession of weapons and for participation in an enemy

21 army?

22 A. No, I'm not aware of that.

23 Q. Do you know that the military Prosecutor instructed the

24 beginning of investigations against you for the same

25 offences?

Page 4329

1 A. No.

2 Q. Are you aware, Mr. Dordic, that you were pardoned for the

3 sake of exchange?

4 A. No. I know only of one person for whom abolition

5 arrived for the sake of exchange and that is Stravko

6 Dordic.

7 Q. You know that criminal proceedings were conducted

8 against Stravko Dordic?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Therefore, the documents of the military Tribunal in

11 Konjic, you are not familiar with them if they do exist?

12 A. No, I'm not.

13 Q. I would now like to ask you your Honours for the

14 document -- the statements from Celebici and Musala

15 which have been identified by the witness to be admitted

16 as defence exhibits?

17 MS. McHENRY: The Prosecution's first question would be for

18 what purpose are they being admitted, and the

19 Prosecution will note they had not been provided with

20 copies of any of these documents beforehand. So before

21 we take a position as to whether or not we object to

22 their admission, we would like to know the purpose for

23 which they are sought to be admitted.

24 MS. RESIDOVIC (in interpretation): For the purpose of

25 identification. I gave them for identification but

Page 4330

1 they are being admitted for the purpose of impeachment

2 of the witness and, secondly, this evidence was not

3 conveyed to the Prosecution beforehand, because our

4 obligation applies. If we have an identified document

5 and if we wish to use it as evidence, then we are

6 obliged to give it to the Prosecution, as we have done

7 immediately after the identification of the document by

8 the witness.

9 MS. McHENRY: Your Honour, I will certainly note that I

10 don't believe the discovery rules which provide that

11 defence counsel must give reciprocal discovery envisions

12 that it will happen in the few seconds before it is

13 given to the witness. So I certainly would object for

14 that ground and I will note that we have noted this has

15 been a continuing problem and we previously noted that

16 we would object to any future ones. In fact, before

17 this witness was cross-examined I went to defence

18 counsel and said: "Are there any documents going to be

19 shown to this witness?" Again I was not given any of

20 these documents. I would also note that I don't

21 believe these documents are proper impeachment, so we

22 would object on that ground also.

23 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Frankly I did not even notice any

24 impeachment circumstances there, because I did not see

25 any contradiction which was pointed out in the

Page 4331

1 statements which were tendered. So I don't see how it

2 stands for impeachment. It does not. There is no

3 basis for tendering it.

4 MS. RESIDOVIC (in interpretation): I must state, first of

5 all, that the Prosecution did not ask us, as defence

6 counsel of Zejnil Delalic, for any documents beforehand

7 and the Trial Chamber has already been in a situation to

8 accept a document in the possession of the defence shown

9 to the witness for the purpose of surprise. When he

10 identifies it, it is of significance to us and we then

11 supply a copy to the Prosecution. We have acted in an

12 identical manner this time.

13 Secondly, in both these statements reference is

14 made to the participation of this witness in disarming

15 two TO members and in the killing of or in the death of

16 a TO member, and that is the contradiction between his

17 testimony and the documents he has identified.

18 THE INTERPRETER: "Will you please tell me which killing

19 you are referring to?", says the witness.

20 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: I don't know what is going on, why is

21 evidence continuing while you are making the address.

22 Now you are telling us why these documents should be

23 admitted for impeachment purposes. As I said, there is

24 nothing in his statement and the evidence which he has

25 tendered which contradicts them, because he has not

Page 4332

1 denied much of the things that he has made in his

2 statement. That has not been denied. I don't see the

3 basis for it: how are the statements you have tendered

4 even suggesting to him.

5 MS. RESIDOVIC (in interpretation): Your Honours, in that

6 case I propose that the documents remain for

7 identification purposes and defence counsel, if

8 necessary, will later submit these documents as

9 evidence, since the witness has already identified his

10 handwriting and his signature?

11 A. No, I apologise, your Honours. I said that this looks

12 like my signature but that it need not be a forgery.

13 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: It can be tendered as identification,

14 I agree.

15 JUDGE JAN: For identification purposes.

16 MS. McHENRY: The Prosecution has no objection to it being

17 part of the record. As I understand it, all documents

18 shown to a witness, whether adopted or not adopted, are

19 made part of the record that they were identified. Now

20 I will clarify that.

21 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Apart from that, in this specific case

22 he has not denied that this is his signature. He has

23 not denied that, so he could not -- and he has

24 identified the document as looking like his own

25 handwriting.

Page 4333

1 MS. McHENRY: That is right. I understand that he has --

2 sorry.

3 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: The question is whether actually he

4 made it, because it is not addressed to anybody. So I

5 don't see how -- to who he made his statement and in

6 what circumstances it was made.

7 JUDGE JAN: That you will prove.

8 MS. RESIDOVIC (in interpretation): Yes, we will prove that

9 in the continuation of these proceedings. Thank you.

10 I have no further questions.

11 MS. McHENRY: I think I only have two questions.

12 Re-examination by Miss McHenry

13 Q. Sir, Mr. Dordic, in January of 1993 were you ever

14 interrogated in the presence of five people as well as

15 Ismeta Pozdor?

16 A. As far as Ismeta is concerned, I was questioned only on

17 the first day I was brought to Celebici camp. I

18 remember that woman from that day. I said that there

19 was just Niksic and Stenek. I don't remember five

20 people.

21 Q. Okay. And that's correct. I believe you have

22 identified one statement in June -- that you gave in

23 Celebici. I am asking whether or not in January 1993

24 you remember being brought in front of a different

25 group, which included Ismeta Pozdor as well as five

Page 4334

1 other persons in January of 1993?

2 MR. GREAVES: I rather think that she is beginning to --

3 excuse me, please. I rather think my learned friend is

4 beginning to suggest the answer she requires from a

5 witness. That in any system of law is a leading

6 question, not a question in re-examination.

7 JUDGE JAN: They will prove the document and then you may

8 question it.

9 MS. McHENRY: I know they may. Especially with respect to

10 these documents we have had problems before, and given

11 that I'm not -- I don't believe they are going to be

12 able to prove up this document. I just want the record

13 to be clear as to what this witness does. I am not

14 going to ask him any more questions other than that.

15 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Except you want to show that he really

16 meant --

17 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

18 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Except you want to show that he made

19 this statement and he made it to someone, which is still

20 lacking in the document, I don't see why you should

21 bother about any statement, any questions at this

22 stage.

23 MS. McHENRY: Okay. Just my final question. Sir, are you

24 in a position to be able to recognise Mr. Esad Landzo's

25 handwriting?

Page 4335

1 A. No.

2 Q. No further questions.

3 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: I think that's all we have for this

4 witness. We are adjourning today and resuming on

5 Monday, 23rd June at 2.00 pm I think for the video

6 conference.

7 (6.15 pm)

8 (Hearing adjourned until Monday, 23rd June at 2.00 pm)

9 --ooOoo--