1 Wednesday, 9th July 1997
2 (10.30 am)
3 (In open session)
4 Witness P (continued)
5 Cross-examined by MS. RESIDOVIC
6 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Good morning, ladies and gentlemen.
7 Can we have the appearances now?
8 MS. McHENRY: Good morning, your Honours. Senior trial
9 attorney Mr. Grant Niemann continues to be out of the
10 country. I'm here, Teresa McHenry, with co-counsel
11 Giuliano Turone and our case manager, Ms. Elles van
13 MS. RESIDOVIC (in interpretation): Good morning, your
14 Honours. I am Edina Residovic, defence counsel for
15 Mr. Zejnil Delalic. I am defending Mr. Delalic, and with
16 me is Professor Eugene O'Sullivan from Canada.
17 MR. OLUJIC (in interpretation): Good morning, your
18 Honours. I am Zeljko Olujic, defence counsel for
19 Mr. Zdravko Mucic. With me defending Mr. Mucic is
20 Mr. Michael Greaves, attorney from the United Kingdom.
21 MR. KARABDIC (in interpretation): Good morning, your
22 Honours. I am Salih Karabdic. I am representing
23 Mr. Hazim Delic. With me is Mr. Thomas Moran, lawyer
24 from Houston, Texas.
25 MR. ACKERMAN: Good morning, your Honours. I am John
1 Ackerman representing Esad Landzo. With me is Cynthia
2 McMurrey from Houston. Thank you.
3 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Will you kindly remind the witness he
4 is still under oath.
5 THE REGISTRAR: I remind you that you are still testifying
6 under oath.
7 MS. RESIDOVIC (in interpretation): Good morning, your
8 Honours. Thank you. I should just like to check my
9 headphones, because my colleague tells me that there are
10 some difficulties.
11 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Thank you. You can proceed, please,
12 if you are ready. You have difficulties?
13 MS. RESIDOVIC (in interpretation): I can't hear anything.
14 (Pause). Yes, I can hear now. Thank you.
15 Your Honours, may I proceed?
16 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Yes, you can.
17 MS. RESIDOVIC (in interpretation): Thank you.
18 Good morning, Mr. P. As you have heard, I'm Edina
19 Residovic, defence counsel for Mr. Zejnil Delalic.
20 Mr. P, I should just like to draw to your attention, as
21 well as mine, that you were testifying all day yesterday
22 by answering questions put to you by persons who were
23 not speaking our language. The two of us can
24 understand each other well so that we could probably
25 have this conversation at quite a fast pace, but I would
1 like to ask you to wait and listen for the translation,
2 which I must do also, otherwise the Trial Chamber and
3 all others here present will not be able to follow. Do
4 we understand one another?
5 A. Yes, we do.
6 Q. Thank you. Mr. P, prior to this hearing you asked for
7 protective measures for reasons which were accepted by
8 the court; is that so?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Earlier on in the media and elsewhere you had spoken
11 about the situation you were in in 1992?
12 A. On one occasion I spoke about that.
13 Q. That was in the newspaper Telegraf of 6th March 1996; is
14 that correct?
15 A. You are right, madam.
16 Q. In that article in the Telegraf various persons and
17 officials were mentioned from Konjic and
18 Bosnia-Herzegovina from that period; is that correct?
19 A. Yes, various names were mentioned, but there are at
20 least 20 newspapers coming out in Belgrade daily, and in
21 each of those newspapers you can read a different
22 interpretation of events.
23 Q. Thank you, but you didn't read that article?
24 A. I read the Telegraf somewhere in mid-April, when I
25 returned from Belgrade.
1 Q. You know that Mr. Zejnil Delalic's name was not
3 A. I cannot recall now.
4 Q. Very well. Thank you. In any case, Mr. P, you lived
5 in Konjic for years?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. You did not personally know Mr. Delalic before the war;
8 is that correct?
9 A. Perhaps I met Mr. Delalic once. I was introduced to him
10 at my colleague's place, Dr. Jusufbegovic's. That was
11 on one occasion.
12 Q. You knew that Mr. Delalic lived abroad?
13 A. Yes, I did.
14 Q. You also knew, as you testified before this Trial
15 Chamber, that he came to Konjic occasionally; is that
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Since you have now mentioned your meeting with
19 Mr. Delalic in your medical centre, you certainly know
20 that Mr. Delalic was a friend of your director, Dr. Ahmed
22 A. Yes, a very good friend of his.
23 Q. You also know that Mr. Delalic was very well acquainted
24 with some of your colleagues, for instance Dr. Grubac,
25 but some others as well?
1 A. Yes, I'm aware of that.
2 Q. That friendship was linked to both the treatment of
3 members of his family, but it went beyond that; is that
5 A. Yes, it is.
6 Q. Since you said that you were introduced to Mr. Delalic
7 just before the war in the hospital, I'm sure that you
8 must know as a doctor, and please confirm this for me,
9 that Mr. Delalic had just before the war provided this
10 hospital with two haemodialysis devices, but that that
11 equipment had still not been installed because of some
12 technical problems with the building itself; is that
14 A. I know that there were two of these devices for
15 haemodialysis and personnel were sent for training to
16 the dialysis centre in Elija.
17 Q. Who was the donator?
18 A. I do not know.
19 Q. Being a doctor, you also probably know that a number of
20 patients from Konjic had to go for haemodialysis once or
21 twice a week?
22 A. At least twice.
23 Q. And you also know that they were taken for haemodialysis
24 to Sarajevo; is that so?
25 A. You are right, but I think that just because of the war,
1 because there were too many patients, one of them was
2 driven to Mostar.
3 Q. You can tell me what happens with patients who depend on
4 these haemodialysis devices, if this is not carried out
5 on time?
6 A. If he skips two or three of these treatments, it means
7 that they are heading straight towards death.
8 Q. The patients from Konjic you drove with your ambulance
9 -- I'm thinking of your medical centre that took them
10 there for treatment?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. And those patients on the way to Sarajevo had to pass
13 through Bradina; is that so?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. And, like other people, you can confirm that Bradina is
16 on the M17 highway linking Konjic to Sarajevo?
17 A. I do not know the number of the highway, but I do know
18 that it links Sarajevo to Konjic.
19 Q. You probably don't know the number, but you know that it
20 is the only main asphalt road between those towns?
21 A. Yes, I know there are other roundabout ways, but I think
22 it's the only asphalt road.
23 Q. Mr. P, you can confirm that, in the event that this route
24 is blocked, normal communication between Konjic and
25 Sarajevo becomes impossible?
1 A. Except roundabout -- using roundabout routes, yes.
2 Q. Mr. P, you stated that, as a specialist, an ear, nose and
3 throat specialist, under certain conditions and for
4 certain reasons you left the medical centre in Konjic
5 and went to Bradina?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. As far as you remember, this happened on 24th or 25th
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Your family was already there; is that so?
11 A. They left that day, only they went by bus, and I came by
12 car. As they were taken off the bus at the checkpoint
13 in Podorasac.
14 Q. Yes. You said that there was a checkpoint in Podorasac
15 where the reserve police force of the Konjic police was
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. You also stated that when you returned to Konjic, you
19 received a telephone call and you learned that a group
20 of Muslims who wanted to leave the territory of Konjic
21 had been stopped at the barricade in Bradina. Is that
22 what you stated?
23 A. I did.
24 Q. Therefore, Mr. P, you knew and you later saw that there
25 were barricades in Bradina?
1 A. Yes, there was a control checkpoint.
2 Q. That checkpoint was not set up by the police, nor the
3 Territorial Defence of Konjic?
4 A. I do not know.
5 Q. Nevertheless, Mr. P, as you testified before this court,
6 until May 4th or 5th you travelled to Konjic to work
7 with some interruptions?
8 A. Yes, 5th or 6th May.
9 Q. Mr. P, you can then recall that on May 1st, 1992 your
10 director, Dr. Jusufbegovic, accompanied two ambulances
11 carrying patients for haemodialysis going to Sarajevo?
12 A. Yes, in response to my request.
13 Q. You know that, precisely because you had called them,
14 they were stopped on the road at Bradina?
15 A. Yes, with Dr. Jusufbegovic was Dr. Risto Kalen.
16 Q. And then after six years (sic) of negotiations with
17 persons at this checkpoint you managed to ensure --
18 after six hours of talks you managed to achieve that
19 these passengers were allowed to pass through to go to
20 Sarajevo; is that correct?
21 A. The tunnel had caved in on the side towards the Vukovici
22 village where the Muslims were. It was not possible to
23 pass by car. They returned to Bradina. They looked
24 me up. I went to see what was happening. I found
25 this tunnel caved in, in the sense of a truckload of
1 earth had been piled up, and they asked the workers to
2 remove this earth so that the ambulance could pass.
3 Then I said that the situation was tense, to which
4 Dr. Risto Kalen's comment was: "Give them something to
5 drink." Then a verbal discussion started, and I nearly
6 had a fight with him, because I did not agree with him.
7 Q. Thank you, Mr. P. You explained that thanks to your
8 efforts this was the last transport of persons going for
9 dialysis to pass through Bradina before the fighting
10 broke out, as you were saying; is that correct?
11 A. I think that it was possible to pass through once again,
12 because the tunnel was hit again from the same side.
13 Q. Thank you. Tell me, Mr. P, after that you stayed in
14 Bradina in the local outpatients' clinic in Bradina?
15 A. Until there were telephone lines, I informed my director
16 every morning of where I was.
17 Q. Actually, as you had stated, the decision to stay there
18 was discussed -- you discussed this decision with your
19 superior, Dr. Ahmed Jusufbegovic?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Maybe it is more correct to say, Mr. P, that this
22 conversation was carried out in your presence with
23 Dr. Jusufbegovic by Dr. Grubac?
24 A. No. Dr. Jusufbegovic went to his native village,
25 Repovci, which is a Muslim village, and to get there he
1 has to pass by my house. We sat in front of my house
2 and I told him: "I'll come to work regularly for as long
3 as there is any transport".
4 Q. Mr. P, you explained this to us yesterday. So you don't
5 know anything about the telephone conversation that your
6 colleague had with Dr. Jusufbegovic; is that so?
7 A. Yes, I don't know.
8 Q. Mr. P, your family, which was in Bradina, was later
9 transferred to Hadici?
10 A. That is correct.
11 Q. That was actually about ten days after you had come to
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. They went to Hadici to stay with your uncle, Milos
15 Mrkajic, because you felt they would be safer there, as
16 Hadici in those days was under the control of the JNA
17 and the Serb forces; is that so?
18 A. My uncle had an older son, who lived in the Federal
19 Republic of Yugoslavia in Cacik, and I felt that from
20 there it would be easiest for them to reach safety.
21 Q. Thank you. You also stated that somewhere around 20th
22 April about 200 HOS members arrived in Konjic?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. And that they were first stationed at the Konjic motel?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. And that their appearance provoked fear in the town
2 among the ordinary people so that people started to flee
3 the city, both Serbs and Muslims; is that so?
4 A. Yes. Only may I add --
5 Q. Will you please explain to me what a HOS means and do
6 you know where they had come from?
7 A. I don't know, but it means the Croatian armed forces.
8 Q. When you went to work for the last time to Konjic on 5th
9 or 6th May, the town had been shelled already on 4th in
10 the evening?
11 A. I came to work to Konjic and the town was shelled. You
12 could see some broken glass in the streets.
13 Q. You know, Mr. P, that the shelling came from the eastern
14 side, from the direction of Borci?
15 A. I'm not a ballistic expert, nor am I a soldier. All I
16 can say is that there was shelling, there was broken
17 glass and damage to the fronts of buildings.
18 Q. You probably know, Mr. P, that on 17th April in Konjic a
19 general mobilisation had been proclaimed because of the
20 immediate threat of war?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. And that all able-bodied men were virtually prohibited
23 from leaving town?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. You also know, or at least I think you do, so please
1 confirm this, that the HOS soldiers who were in the
2 motel later moved to Podorasac, a place between Konjic
3 and Bradina?
4 A. I hear of that for the first time.
5 Q. Mr. P, did you know that in Podorasac the HVO command was
7 A. No.
8 Q. Did you know that the commander of the HVO in that
9 region was Zovko Zvonko, or at least he was referred to
10 as such, Zvonko Zovko?
11 A. I don't know who was the commander. I did see Zvonko
12 when I was stopped at the checkpoint in Podorasac
13 wearing a camouflage uniform in a vehicle make Lada
14 Niva, the property of the Sipad company from Konjic, and
15 when I reached Mr. Delalic's on 27th, I found in the
16 apartment Mr. Dinko Zebic.
17 Q. Yes, you have already told us that.
18 A. I wanted to add something. And I assumed he was the
20 Q. You mean Dinko Zebic?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. You stated before the Trial Chamber that you had no
23 official or political function and that, in fact, you
24 did not engage in politics in those days; is that so?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. In a report submitted by the Prosecutor to the defence
2 there are some data which I should like you to tell me
3 whether they are true or not, namely is it true that
4 while you were in Bradina you had tried to use your
5 influence to prevent the conflict from flaring up?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Is it true that in April 1992 you took part in the first
8 meeting held in Pero Mrkajic's cafe in Bradina, which
9 was attended from the Serbian side by Kuljanin Jovo,
10 Mrkajic Pero, Gligorevic Radovan? This was from your
11 side, the Serb side?
12 A. There were other people too.
13 Q. But these people were there, weren't they, and do you
14 remember who were the negotiators on the other side?
15 A. I think Ajanovic Fikret. We called him "Fiko". He
16 graduated in mechanical engineering and he was working
17 in Sarajevo. I knew the other people except for one of
19 Q. Is it correct that the second meeting was held in Sunje
20 at the beginning of May and it was attended on the Serb
21 side by Jovo Kuljanin, Branoslav Gligorevic, yourself
22 and Vaso Vujicic Kisa?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Do you know who attended then on the other side?
25 A. Saban Spiljak, Ljevo -- I can't remember his first name
1 -- his father, and I do not recall the others.
2 Q. The third meeting was held in the village of Zukici, and
3 on the Serbian side present were Vujicic Vaso, Rajko,
4 you, Mr. P, and Jovo Kuljanin. This meeting was held in
5 mid-May of 1992?
6 A. I think that there was another representative present as
7 well. I think you forgot him.
8 Q. If you can recall him, you can mention him.
9 A. Branko Gligorevic.
10 Q. Do you know who your interlocutors were?
11 A. Goran Lokas, Mr. Smajo Prevljak, and I can't recall the
12 name -- Diver. He was a military officer on active
13 duty, and then he asked me whether I was a
14 representative of any military authorities, and I
15 answered that I was not, that had I wanted to be a
16 soldier, I would have been that a long time ago and I
17 would have had a much higher rank than he did. I state
18 now whenever I went to those negotiations I was waited
19 upon after my shift in the dispensary because people
20 trusted me. I knew a lot of people, and they were
21 certain that nothing will happen to them if I was there
22 with them.
23 Q. Thank you. There was a fourth meeting, which was
24 attended on your side by the same persons that you
25 mentioned and on the other side, except for Diver, there
1 was also Ahmed Jusufbegovic; is that correct?
2 A. No. I don't recall that meeting at all, and I don't
3 recall at all that I met Dr. Ahmed Jusufbegovic.
4 MS. McHENRY: Just so the record is clear, when defence
5 counsel refers to a report submitted by the prosecution,
6 it was just a report given as part of discovery, not
7 necessarily a report prepared by the prosecution and not
8 provided as something that was or was not accurate.
9 MS. RESIDOVIC (in interpretation): I am just trying to
10 ascertain the facts, because Mr. P was talking about his
11 engagement up there, and I wanted to hear him state that
12 himself, so this was just an opportunity for me to check
13 the facts. I'm not interested in the report per se.
14 Mr. P has really given us a comprehensive account of what
15 was going on up there.
16 So, Mr. P, since you have stated the positions of
17 some of your interlocutors, could you please tell us who
18 Mr. Goran Lokas was? You did not tell us much about him.
19 A. I knew Goran Lokas as the President of the municipal
21 Q. At that time did he take part in negotiations as
22 President of the court?
23 A. I cannot speak to that. I don't know.
24 Q. Mr. P, can you tell me whether at those meetings the
25 discussion was also held about surrendering of arms and
1 removal of barricades from the road?
2 A. The discussion was about not attacking and free movement
3 of goods and people. It was agreed that anything could
4 pass through, both people and goods, but no arms.
5 Q. However, Mr. P, you know that until 25th May the free
6 traffic, free passage, was not secured; in other words,
7 barricades were not dismantled, and the weapons were not
8 turned in by the population?
9 A. It was agreed when I was last there on 25th May at
10 12 o'clock that there will be additional negotiations in
12 Q. I would please like you to answer me the following
13 question: regardless of what was agreed, on that day,
14 by that day, no barricades were dismantled or weapons
15 turned in; correct?
16 A. Three days before 25th May some women started down to
17 Konjic, because no -- there was no bus transportation
18 from Repovci, going through Bradina towards Konjic. So
19 they came to this caved-in tunnel on the south side of
20 the tunnel, which had been caved in by the HVO and the
21 TO forces, as far as I know. At the bridge they were
22 met. Niksic -- I don't recall his first name -- and he
23 was wearing a camouflage uniform.
24 Q. I know you know a lot about events there, but my
25 question is whether the arms, the weapons had been
1 turned in, surrendered. If you know that, please say
2 so or if you don't, please say so, so that we wouldn't
3 expand on this story. Do you know whether the
4 barricades were removed by 25th May and whether the
5 population had turned in the weapons?
6 A. Please do not try to simplify the matters. Let's go in
7 order, but I will answer your question: no.
8 Q. Thank you. You stated before this Trial Chamber that
9 because of fear and other reasons the population
10 organised self-defence, so you knew that people were
11 acquiring weapons in case of necessity?
12 A. Yes. The black market for weapons, for oil and
13 cigarettes was active.
14 Q. Also, Mr. P, you knew that, as you said it, after
15 sporadic conflicts on the line of separation trenches
16 were also being dug around Bradina; is that correct?
17 A. I don't know of that. I did not go to those places.
18 Q. Thank you. At the time of these combat operations in
19 Bradina you stated that you were in the dispensary?
20 A. Correct.
21 Q. Is it true that in the afternoon Radovan Kuljanin
22 arrived at the dispensary and he had a bullet wound?
23 A. Correct.
24 Q. You treated him at that time?
25 A. Correct, yes.
1 Q. Nedjo Kuljanin's father came to you later that evening?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Nedjo Kuljanin had a wound on his right upper leg and
4 you went to Suljina Strana to treat him?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. After this you returned to the dispensary, where you
7 spent the night?
8 A. Correct.
9 Q. In the morning, together with Milan Zuza, Milovan
10 Kuljanin, Risto Mrkajic, Kuljanin Radovan, you
11 surrendered to the members of the HVO and TO; correct?
12 A. It was not in the morning; it was 4 o'clock in the
14 Q. So it was 26th May at 4 o'clock in the afternoon.
15 Mr. P, even though the population was arming itself, as
16 you stated, you personally had no weapons?
17 A. No.
18 Q. Some time in mid-May, Drago Vujicic, called Spaco, did
19 offer you a weapon but you refused it; is that correct?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. You know that your colleague, Dr. Milan Zuza, at the time
22 of your arrest, turned over his automatic rifle to you;
23 is that correct?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. He kept this rifle in this dispensary; is that correct?
1 A. Yes, in the dentistry.
2 Q. As you stated, you were arrested together with another
3 100-150 persons; correct?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. However,, when you started on foot and then later in
6 that truck, those were exclusively men?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Children and women stayed in Bradina?
9 A. I explained that yesterday.
10 Q. I apologise for restating that question.
11 A. No problem.
12 Q. Part of the arrested people, and Dr. Zuza was one of
13 them, surrendered their weapons right away, and some
14 others either threw it away or hid it?
15 A. I found that out; I learned that in the prison that that
16 is correct.
17 Q. Thank you. Before the Trial Chamber you described in
18 some detail the tortures that you suffered in Bradina.
19 As a human being I feel very sorry for what happened to
20 you, but I need to ask several additional questions
21 relating to that. You were taken to Musala Sports
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Can you tell us -- I'm not sure how precise your answer
25 was on that issue. How long did you stay there?
1 A. I couldn't have been precise, because I cannot tell
2 exactly. I think that we were kept 30-40 minutes.
3 Q. Thank you. Mr. P, you were told at that time that you
4 were brought there by mistake, and that you should have
5 been taken to Grude?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. What is Grude, please?
8 A. It's a Croatian town in the present day -- in the
9 present territory of Herceg-Bosna, which is part of the
10 Croat Muslim Federation.
11 Q. At that time you knew that the headquarters of the HVO
12 was located there?
13 A. I knew of it.
14 Q. Mr. P, after all the mistreatment that you suffered, you
15 were brought to Celebici and you were taken to the
16 underground tunnel together with other arrested persons?
17 A. Through the torture that accompanied this.
18 Q. Yes. Do you know the time -- what time it was when you
19 were brought to this tunnel?
20 A. I think it was around 3.00, 3.30 in the morning of 27th.
21 Q. So it's in the night between 26th and 27th?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. In your group was also an elderly man Mirko Kuljanin
24 from Bradina; correct?
25 A. I don't remember him. I could give you some names.
1 Q. You could, yes, two or three please?
2 A. The ones that I remember are Milan Zuza, Mijailo
3 Mrkajic, Relja Kuljanin, Radomir Dordic.
4 Q. Very well. Thank you. That's sufficient. Thank
5 you. You stated that at some point Miralem Musinovic,
6 called Rale, appeared and he introduced himself as the
7 camp commander?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. How much time did elapse between the time you were
10 brought to the tunnel and the time that Rale Musinovic
11 came to call you to come out of the tunnel?
12 A. I think about half an hour.
13 Q. Do you recall whether at that time other persons were
14 also taken out of the tunnel?
15 A. I was the first to be taken out.
16 Q. Can you tell me if you recall that at that time Simo
17 Jovanovic and his brother were also taken out?
18 A. As I said, I only know that I was brought out first.
19 Q. Mr. P, you stated that at that time some individuals were
20 waiting for you there. Could you tell us what those --
21 who those individuals were and what they did?
22 A. Yes. I was -- they were Marko Rajic, the driver, who
23 used to work in the Unis company in Konjic, and it seems
24 to me there were two additional persons present there,
25 of whom I think one's name was Gulas.
1 Q. You don't know what duties they had, what they did?
2 A. No, I don't.
3 Q. Thank you. After you were brought out where did you go
4 first on that early morning of 27th?
5 A. I was first allowed to find my shoes on the heap of
6 shoes and then they took me to Mr. Zejnil Delalic.
7 Q. Some time around 4 o'clock in the morning, as you
8 confirmed, you were brought to the house of Mr. Delalic?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Otherwise you knew that Mr. Delalic had a house in
12 A. That was well-known to me.
13 Q. You know that this house is located at the exit of
14 Konjic towards Celebici and Jablanica?
15 A. Yes, across from the gas station.
16 Q. This house has a ground floor and a top floor?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Looking towards Celebici on the left-hand side, this is
19 where this highway which was called M17 passes, right by
20 the house, by the fence?
21 A. Correct.
22 Q. Across from this house is the gas station that you just
24 A. Correct.
25 Q. And this gas station -- both this gas station and
1 Mr. Delalic's house are sort of located under a very
2 large rock?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. And the river Neretva runs by the house and one could
5 say this is where the Jablanica lake starts, because
6 that's where it starts widening?
7 A. Correct.
8 Q. There's a lot of greenery and woods and trees
9 surrounding that area; correct?
10 A. I did not pass by there.
11 Q. You stated that in the ground floor of the house there
12 was a disco?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. On that day, when you came, you were taken to the top
15 floor, where there was the apartment of Mr. Delalic;
17 A. You are right, madam.
18 Q. I would like to ask you now, and we will ask the
19 Technical Department for help, to help me locate --
20 identify the location. The prosecution has viewed this
21 tape and I would like the tape number 1 shown. I think
22 there is probably no objection on the part of the
24 MS. McHENRY: Correct. I was given this videotape
25 yesterday and have seen it. No objection.
1 MS. RESIDOVIC (in interpretation): Please could the witness
2 be shown the tape number 1, and since there's no audio
3 on it, I don't think that -- we don't need to go into
4 private session or anything. We can just show it as
6 (Videotape played)
7 Q. This is the gas station that you mentioned; correct?
8 A. I can tell the Yugopetrol sign there.
9 Q. And this is the fence of the house towards the street?
10 A. I'm better oriented with models. You'll see next to the
11 gas station --
12 Q. This is the site towards the motel?
13 A. This seems to be the house of Mr. Delalic.
14 Q. The entire tape is just about four minutes long, so at
15 the end you can comment. This is the entrance to the
16 disco. Perhaps there are some changes here, because
17 the tape is recent?
18 A. Shall we discuss it?
19 Q. Let's just see the entire tape. I would like you to --
20 I would just like to know whether you recognise the
21 house or not. You entered -- you probably entered from
22 the other side, and this is the side facing the motel?
23 A. I entered from the other side. I don't see the stairs.
24 Q. That's from the other side. This was just shot from
25 this side. You'll see -- you can see the gas station
1 from here. You'll see it in close-up. Neretva is
2 over on that side; correct?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Well, here?
5 A. I still can't see the stairs.
6 Q. The stairs are on the other side, but is this
7 Mr. Delalic's house?
8 A. I guess probably but I can't see the stairs.
9 Q. But this is the entrance to the disco. Can you see
11 A. Yes. There was -- yes, I see. There was the carwash
12 place and the car mechanics and then also the video
13 games for children.
14 Q. I didn't ask you where you entered, because obviously
15 the stairs are from the other side, but on this video
16 you can recognise Mr. Delalic's house?
17 A. I can only confirm it by the side for where the stairs
18 are, so I'm just telling you what I'm sure about.
19 Q. Thank you very much. I would just like this marked for
20 identification, and when somebody is able to recognise
21 the house, then we will offer it into evidence?
22 A. I can make you a drawing.
23 Q. Thanks. That will not be necessary. Since you did
24 not -- this is the -- so this is the house which you did
25 not fully recognise; this is the house you were brought
1 into on 27th May?
2 A. Correct.
3 Q. Together with you, who else entered this house --
4 JUDGE ODIO BENITO: Could I have an explanation about what
5 kind of thing is a disco?
6 MS. RESIDOVIC (in interpretation): A disco is a night
7 gathering place mostly for the youth.
8 JUDGE ODIO BENITO: Thank you.
9 MS. RESIDOVIC (in interpretation): That's what it was
10 before the war. This is what these premises were
11 before the war.
12 JUDGE ODIO BENITO: Thank you.
13 MS. RESIDOVIC (in interpretation): Thank you. You said
14 who entered first?
15 A. I think it was Marko Ruzic. I waited a minute or two.
16 Q. When you entered, you said that Mr. Delalic was wearing a
17 morning robe?
18 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Ms. Residovic, please let's have a
19 break and come back at 12. We will come back at 12.
20 (11.30 am)
21 (Short break)
22 (12.00 noon)
23 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Ms. Residovic, I think you can proceed
25 MS. RESIDOVIC (in interpretation): Thank you, your
2 Mr. P, to go back to the point where we were before
3 the break, you were called out and taken out of Tunnel
4 Number 9 by Mr. Rale Musinovic; is that not so?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. When you left the tunnel and when Rale told you that you
7 had to go and do your job, you were not tied up at that
8 time, were you?
9 A. I was not.
10 Q. In your bloodstained coat you sat in the car. You were
11 not tied up then either, or in the position of somebody
12 who was being arrested. You were not tied up in the
13 car, were you?
14 A. No.
15 Q. And that is how you entered Mr. Delalic's apartment?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Mr. P, when Rale told you this, you understood that you
18 were being released from the tunnel; is that so?
19 A. How was I supposed to know, because I didn't know where
20 he was taking me? He just said that I was going to
21 work, but I didn't know where he was taking me.
22 Q. Very well. Thank you. Early on and in answer to my
23 question you already explained that you reached
24 Mr. Delalic's house, that he was wearing his robe. He
25 offered you something to eat and to drink; is that so?
1 A. You are right.
2 Q. Tell me: in addition to Zebic, who else was in this
3 room where you were sitting?
4 A. A woman was coming in. I don't know her name or
6 Q. Thank you. During the conversation -- then you washed
7 up, then you had coffee, and in the meantime it had
8 dawned, hadn't it?
9 A. Not quite.
10 Q. Mr. Delalic and Mr. Zebic told you that they were sure
11 that you had not participated in the conflict in
12 Bradina; is that so?
13 A. At the time?
14 Q. I'm asking at the time.
15 A. I'm quoting now. "According to our knowledge, at
16 present you sought to calm down the situation".
17 Mr. Zebic asked me whether I knew Mrs. Stojka Boras. I
18 answered "yes".
19 Q. Let me ask the question, please. You had already told
20 some local people in Bradina that they should not insult
21 Mrs. Boras; is that correct?
22 A. Yes, that is correct.
23 Q. Didn't Mr. Delalic tell you then that he would try to
24 take you back to the hospital in collaboration with your
1 A. Yes, that is so.
2 Q. Then he called up Mr. Jusufbegovic; is that so?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Please, Mr. P, will you tell me when -- a previous
5 question first. You knew that the town had been
6 shelled on the last day that you were there, that the
7 shelling continued, that there was a lot of talk about
8 what was happening in Bosnia and Herzegovina, and, this
9 is my question: at the time there was -- anti-Serbian
10 feeling was rampant in the town; is that correct?
11 A. It is correct.
12 Q. Then and a little later you could feel that you were
13 being avoided by your close friends even?
14 A. They didn't even refrain from allowing me to be slapped.
15 Q. You also knew that the Croats and Muslims at the time in
16 such an atmosphere, who had tried to help some Serbs,
17 that they were highly criticised in town and some were
18 even accused of collaborating with the Cetniks; isn't
19 that so?
20 A. They called them the fifth column.
21 Q. So you knew at the time that there were few people who
22 dared to help those people, isn't that so?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. But, nevertheless, there were people who paid no
25 attention to such prejudices and to their personal
2 A. Very few such people.
3 Q. Thank you. Now let us go back to this trip you made
4 from the hospital, where your injuries were treated, to
5 Celebici. You said that you spent two days at the
6 Gynaecology Department?
7 A. I spent the night, I spent the day, I spent the next
8 night and until the following day, about 3 o'clock I was
9 transferred together I think with two or three other
10 injured people, who had plaster extensions. I'm not
11 quite sure on which legs they had plaster, and on their
12 hips -- the upper leg and hip.
13 Q. Mr. P, you spent those two days there as a patient, not
14 as a doctor; is that correct?
15 A. That is not absolutely right, because on the temperature
16 chart it was noted "SE, KS, urine, RTG, pulmo, RTO,
18 Q. So that would mean what?
19 A. None of these tests were carried out. I just received
20 one infusion and I was given an analgesic intramuscular,
21 an injection.
22 Q. But you were not acting as a doctor?
23 A. No.
24 Q. You were in a room with other patients?
25 A. No. I was alone.
1 Q. At the time you were not under guard protection. Some
2 uniformed men would come in occasionally?
3 A. Occasionally.
4 Q. Thank you. After that you were transferred to the Third
5 of March School, which was an improvised infirmary; is
6 that correct?
7 A. It was inadequate as accommodation. There was just a
8 desk, a teacher's desk, a classroom desk, on which we
9 held the drum and the instruments I had already
11 Q. Yes, but you went there as a doctor?
12 A. I was told I was going there as a doctor.
13 Q. This school is close to the hospital, isn't it?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Both the school and the hospital were at a spot that was
16 exposed to combat operations, isn't that so?
17 A. I assume so. I'm not a military expert.
18 Q. With your colleagues, Grubac and Zuza, you treated the
19 injured detainees, isn't that so?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. You have just answered my question. Some of the
22 prisoners who had serious injuries received medical
23 treatment in the hospital where you were too?
24 A. They were Marko Mrkajic, Sejad Gligorevic and some
25 others whose names I cannot recall just now, but, madam
2 Q. Please don't ask me anything. That is not the
3 situation, so will you just please answer my questions?
4 Thank you. Maybe on some other occasion. Is it true
5 that when you reach that school, that must have been
6 somewhere around 30th May?
7 A. Roughly, yes.
8 Q. Very well, and you came across another 25 patients in
9 the school already, whose wounds had been treated?
10 A. Partially.
11 Q. Later the number, as you said, increased to about 30; is
12 that so?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. You were in that school with those patients all the
15 time; is that so?
16 A. Correct.
17 Q. You were able to go out into town?
18 A. Under no circumstances. How could I go out? The
19 police was standing in front of the door. We had to
20 knock when we wanted to use the toilet. We were
21 allowed to do that twice a day.
22 Q. Actually the school was guarded by members of the Konjic
23 police; isn't that so?
24 A. For the first couple of days members of the military
25 police of the HVO.
1 Q. And then later Konjic police as well?
2 A. I did not know any members of the MUP. These were
3 civilians who had been mobilised.
4 Q. You have also confirmed in this Trial Chamber that
5 Slobodan Babic from Donje Selo died in that school; is
6 that so? You just established his death?
7 A. Slobodan Babic comes from the village of Bijelovcina.
8 Q. But that is the region of Donje Selo, isn't it?
9 A. It is correct that I established his death.
10 Q. Very well. Thank you. After some ten days or so for
11 security reasons, as you were told, you were transferred
12 with some of the injured patients to the Celebici
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Before that did Mr. Jusufbegovic tell you that your
16 colleagues were not willing to agree to your working
17 with them in the hospital?
18 A. After I left the camp.
19 Q. Upon arrival in Celebici and Building Number 22 you
20 actually had no insight into what was happening in town
21 and within the territory of the Konjic municipality;
22 isn't that so?
23 A. Yes, that is so.
24 Q. But you would know if a new group was to be brought into
25 the prison; isn't that so?
1 A. I would learn of something.
2 Q. My question is: do you know that somewhere around the
3 beginning of June, the first week of June, a group of
4 Serbs was brought in who had been -- from Bradina, who
5 had been arrested at Mount Igman and who had tried to
6 escape across Mount Igman to Kalinovic. Are you aware
7 of that?
8 A. Yes, I was.
9 Q. You probably know that it was said that this was a group
10 of radical Serbs and upon their arrest they were
11 severely beaten up; is that so? Are you aware of that?
12 A. Some were killed and some were beaten up.
13 Q. You know that within this group was your relative Pero
14 Mrkajic, who had also been heavily beaten?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. You have already explained to the Trial Chamber that due
17 to these injuries Pero died. You spoke about this
19 MS. McHENRY: May I just ask, so the record is clear -- I'm
20 not objecting -- to clarify whether or not there is more
21 than one Pero Mrkajic and which we are talking about,
22 since I believe there may be more than one, just so the
23 record is clear.
24 JUDGE JAN: She's talking about his relative.
25 MS. McHENRY: Yes, but when the witness is referring -- I
1 just think we need to clarify exactly where this person
2 was when he died, just so the record is clear about who
3 we are talking about.
4 MS. RESIDOVIC (in interpretation): Very well. I'll try to
5 clear this up. Therefore, the group which after the
6 first week of June was arrested and detained and beaten
7 up in the process, and that arrived at the Celebici
8 camp, was the group which included your relative Pero
9 Mrkajic that you said yesterday had died; is that
11 A. Yes. There were two Pero Mrkajics. There was the one
12 from Musala. There was little Pero, known as "Little
13 Pero", and big Pero. This was big Pero.
14 Q. He was -- he had a cafe and he died in Celebici; is that
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. If certain persons made statements here and who were
18 arrested with him and who said that he died in the first
19 half of June, then it was an omission on your part when
20 you said that this had happened at the end of June or
21 the beginning of July. Would you agree with that?
22 A. No. Let us clear this up. We can talk about the
23 period up to 22nd and the period after 22nd July.
24 July, when I was released, because after five years, and
25 every effort to forget and suppress into my subconscious
1 all this, I cannot indicate the exact dates.
2 Q. So, Mr. P, let us clear this up. You have a certain
3 date which you remember, that is the period of your
4 arrest, the period of your release and then the period
5 after you were released?
6 A. Yes, sufficiently.
7 Q. So you would agree that in the period between your
8 arrest and your release you cannot exactly remember all
9 the dates and state with precision when an event took
11 A. That is so.
12 Q. Very well. Thank you. Mr. P, you stated that some
13 prisoners who had been wounded during the shelling of
14 Musala had been brought to Building 22; is that correct?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. They were for a time the most serious patients you had
17 in Building 22; is that correct?
18 A. Whose treatment took the longest time, two of them.
19 Q. Thank you. Across the way from Building 22 there was
20 the command building of the Celebici barracks?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Until the beginning of July a mixed team of
23 investigators was working there, who took statements
24 from the prisoners. Are you aware of that?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. Those investigators belonged to the MUP and the HVO.
2 Are you aware of that?
3 A. And the Territorial Defence of Bosnia-Herzegovina.
4 Q. At the beginning of the work of this Commission the
5 President of the Commission was Goran Lokas; is that so?
6 A. I learned that in the Third of March elementary school.
7 Q. However, after early July you no longer saw those
8 persons interrogating prisoners; isn't that so?
9 A. They interrogated -- the people who were interrogating
10 were Miroslav Stenek; known as Kuvar, or the cook,
11 somebody called Kuvar or the cook. I can't remember
12 his name or surname. Pajic, a sergeant. I can't
13 remember his name. Those were the people I knew among
14 the investigators.
15 Q. Thank you. I don't know whether we have understood one
16 another well. They carried out interrogations until
17 the beginning of July of that year?
18 A. I don't know exactly until when.
19 Q. You were personally interrogated, as you said, by
20 Pajic. Let me remind you. His name is Sacir?
21 A. I don't know his name. It is correct that his name was
22 Pajic. I'm sorry. I don't know his first name.
23 Q. You knew, Mr. P, that this Commission had the authority
24 to decide who would be released and that at first some
25 50 persons were released more or less immediately?
1 A. Persons started to be released, I think, on 3rd
2 September, with the exception of Miro Golubovic, his
3 father Stanko, myself and my colleague, as far as I
5 Q. Very well. Thank you. You made your statement, as
6 you said, some ten days or ten to fifteen days after
7 being arrested?
8 A. Yes. Roughly.
9 Q. Whatever you said has been taken down in the transcript
10 -- was taken down during the interrogation?
11 A. Yes, I think it was.
12 Q. Mr. Pajic didn't use any force during the questioning; on
13 the contrary?
14 A. On the contrary, he was very polite.
15 Q. Nobody punished you in any way during the interrogation,
16 did they?
17 A. No.
18 Q. Mr. P, you said that that statement was about half an A4
19 format page?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. I would like to ask you, since you said that you made
22 such a statement, to look at this statement -- it is not
23 a very good copy -- to try to see whether that is the
24 statement you made in Celebici. I think we received
25 this from the prosecutor, but anyway we have a copy here
1 for the prosecution.
2 MS. McHENRY: It was not received from the prosecution and I
3 would like to see it before it is shown to the
5 MS. RESIDOVIC (in interpretation): Yes, here you are,
6 please. Please show it to the prosecution. There's a
7 copy for the Trial Chamber and for the witness.
9 MS. McHENRY: I would just ask, since this has not been given
10 to the prosecution previously, for what purpose it is
11 being offered to the witness?
12 MS. RESIDOVIC (in interpretation): It is being offered to
13 the witness to identify it as his statement, to identify
14 this document.
15 MS. McHENRY: Your Honour, then I must object, because this
16 is once again -- the prosecution has not been given this
17 in advance, and, as we have told defence counsel in
18 writing, we are going to object. We didn't object for
19 the first part of the trial, but we've consistently
20 asked for any evidence the defence intends to
21 introduce. We were not given this, and therefore I
22 would object:
23 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Can we have your reaction to that
25 MS. RESIDOVIC (in interpretation): As I have pointed out a
1 number of times, the obligation of the defence,
2 according to Rule 66 of our Rules of Procedure and
3 Evidence, is to give the Prosecutor all evidence that we
4 have in our possession and which we intend to use as
5 evidence. Since this is a document which we will be
6 using as evidence only if the witness identifies it, we
7 did not disclose it. We are not obliged to disclose it
8 in accordance with Rule 66B to the prosecution. We
9 have done so now, since the witness is here present, and
10 he can identify whether it is the statement he made in
11 Celebici on 8th July. This provision of the Rules is
12 very clear.
13 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: That is, the defence is not obliged to
14 tender to the prosecution statements they intend to
15 use. Is that very clear? They have no obligation to
16 give to the prosecution a statement they intend to use?
17 MS. RESIDOVIC (in interpretation): That is what I just
18 said. I think that the Rule has -- the Trial Chamber
19 has already ruled on this matter. Any document that we
20 intend to use as evidence and which we have in our
21 possession, we are obliged to give to the prosecution.
22 66B and 67 obliges us to do this, but, as we can use
23 this as evidence only after it has been identified by
24 the witness, we are still not proposing this, and
25 therefore I think that as you and this Trial Chamber
1 have agreed to such a procedure, that it should be
2 submitted to the witness for identification, and only
3 then tendered as evidence. If he does not identify it,
4 then we cannot propose it as evidence. The witness has
5 already testified many things related to this statement,
6 virtually everything. I'm just interested in learning
7 whether this is that statement of his, because I can ask
8 him further questions on the basis of this statement
9 before I can tender it as evidence.
10 MS. McHENRY: Your Honour, if I may just briefly respond,
11 with all due respect to my esteemed colleague,
12 Ms. Residovic, I find this argument unbelievable, that
13 the discovery rules, when they indicate that someone
14 shall -- be it the prosecution or the defence -- intends
15 to use evidence, what it means is: after the grounds for
16 getting it admitted are established, then you show it to
17 the prosecution. . This has come up on numerous
18 occasions before, initially oftentimes because the
19 particular document -- we didn't object to the
20 particular document. We did not object, but we have
21 made it very clear in the recent past that this is a
22 clear violation, clear and continued violation of the
23 rules of discovery.
24 The prosecution has since the time of the first
25 appearance been providing the defence with a large,
1 large number of documents, identified what it intends to
2 use as evidence, and the notion that -- what it means is
3 that all you have to do is at the moment you show it to
4 the witness give it to the prosecution makes a mockery
5 out of the Rules of this Tribunal.
6 I think this Chamber needs to make it very clear
7 to the parties that giving the prosecution what it
8 intends to use as evidence at the time they proffer it
9 to the witness is absolutely unacceptable, and we must
10 immediately be given all evidence which the defence
11 intends to use as evidence.
12 The defence did not have to choose to invoke the
13 extensive discovery rules, which imposes upon them
14 reciprocal discovery obligations. The defence did
15 so. It was made very clear by this Trial Chamber,
16 including the prior judges at the time the defence made
17 this, that it did require the defence to give us those
18 things, and therefore I would ask for a very clear
19 ruling from this Tribunal that we must immediately be
20 given all evidence that the defence intends to use
21 throughout this -- throughout the prosecution case and
22 throughout the defence case.
23 MS. RESIDOVIC (in interpretation): The defence turned over
24 all evidence that it intends to use to the prosecution,
25 and also all the evidence that it is presenting during
1 the proceedings it is also turning over. It is very
2 clear what the Trial Chamber ruled on the need to turn
3 over the witness list as well, but yesterday we found
4 ourselves in a situation that we received very
5 significant documents from the standpoint of a certain
6 defence counsel, but we received these documents without
7 the sources of these documents being listed.
8 So I'm trying to strictly abide by Rule 66. The
9 Delalic defence provided over 100 documents to the
10 prosecution. Even this morning's videotape was
11 provided to them. Rule 66 is very clear, the moment
12 the defence has in its possession a piece of evidence
13 and intends to present it. So the cumulative
14 conditions are met, and the Trial Chamber agreed to
15 this, and I am pursuing the same procedure: after this
16 request by the prosecution, should the Trial Chamber
17 come to a different decision, we will abide by that.
18 We will comply with it, but we have to clarify it and
19 make sure that these are the rules that apply to both
20 the prosecution and to us.
21 JUDGE JAN: You are relying on which Rule?
22 MS. McHENRY: The prosecution is relying on 67C:
23 "If the defence makes a request pursuant to
24 subrule 66B..."
25 All the accused in this case made a request under
1 Rule 66B. At the time they made the request the Trial
2 Chamber -- it was the same Trial Chamber but different
3 judges -- made it very clear on the record that the
4 defence was doing this and that the defence understood
5 that there were reciprocal discovery obligations as set
6 out in this Rule, and we would be --
7 JUDGE JAN: 67 is related to 66B.
8 MS. McHENRY: Correct.
9 JUDGE JAN: If the defence had wanted to look at all the
10 documents of the prosecution, so the prosecution has
11 also a right to look at all the documents which the
12 defence intends to use as evidence.
13 MS. McHENRY: That is correct. There is no dispute here
14 that the defence has invoked and taken advantage of Rule
15 66B from the beginning at great -- and the prosecution
16 has spent hundreds, if not thousands, of hours complying
17 with its discovery obligations.
18 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Your contention is that there is
19 reciprocity in every document which they intend to use.
20 MS. McHENRY: I am really not sure if I understand it, but I
21 would certainly say that the defence is required to
22 allow us to inspect all -- let's talk about this case --
23 all documents which are within their custody or control
24 and which they intend to use as evidence at the trial.
25 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Yes. That is the provision 66B.
1 MS. McHENRY: No, your Honour. I'm sorry. I was reading
2 from 67C.
3 JUDGE JAN: It is related to 66B.
4 MS. McHENRY: That is correct. 67C is applicable if the
5 defence makes a request under 66B.
6 JUDGE ODIO BENITO: Uh-huh.
7 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: The point is where does the
8 reciprocity come, because if there is reciprocity, it
9 should fall within those provisions, that having given
10 notice under those provisions and being entitled to look
11 through your documents, then you should be also
13 MS. McHENRY: I'm not sure if I exactly understand your
14 Honour. The prosecution is not here saying that the
15 reciprocal obligations are identical.
16 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: 66B.
17 MS. McHENRY: I believe that 66B, what the prosecution is
18 required to do may be broader than what the defence is
19 required to do, but the minimum -- there cannot be any
20 argument that at the minimum the defence is required to
21 provide us or allow us to inspect all documents which
22 they intend to use as evidence at trial. That is the
23 clear language of the Statute. I'm sorry -- the
25 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Read what 66B says.
1 MS. McHENRY: Yes. 66B states that:
2 "The Prosecutor shall on request, subject to
3 subrule C, permit the defence to inspect any books,
4 documents, photographs and tangible objects in his
5 custody or control, which are material to the
6 preparation of the defence or are intended for use by
7 the Prosecutor as evidence at trial, or were obtained
8 from or belonged to the accused."
9 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Yes. Now this enables you to invoke
11 MS. McHENRY: Correct. That's correct. The defence has
12 taken full advantage of all provisions of Rule 66B.
13 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Yes.
14 MS. McHENRY: When they did this, the Trial Chamber
15 confirmed in open court that they were doing this and
16 that they understood that they had reciprocal discovery
18 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Have you actually invoked 67C?
19 MS. McHENRY: Yes, your Honour. We invoked it at the time
20 and we have been continuing to press and have done so by
21 letters as long as a year ago, by motions in this
22 court. The Trial Chamber made it very clear, and I
23 don't believe even the defence would disagree that we
24 have consistently been asking for our rights under 67C.
25 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Perhaps there is some difficulty of
1 interpretation. If what you are entitled to is limited
2 to the documents listed in 67C, then it wouldn't extend
3 to statements.
4 MS. McHENRY: Yes. I'm sorry. Your Honour, we are not --
5 I understand that there may well be another argument
6 about whether or not the prosecution is entitled to
7 defence witness statements, and the prosecution may well
8 make that argument at another time. That is not the
9 argument that we're making now.
10 The argument that we are making now is:
11 Ms. Residovic has indicated and stated that she intends
12 to use this document as evidence in the trial, assuming
13 the witness is able to recognise it, and therefore we
14 believe that there cannot be any argument that the
15 document falls within the clear meaning or the clear
16 words of Rule 67C. It is a document which she intends
17 to use as evidence in trial. The issue is:
18 Ms. Residovic is stating that she wishes to use it at
19 trial, but until the defence -- I'm sorry -- until the
20 witness identifies it, she can't, and that therefore
21 somehow the Rules don't apply, and I think this makes a
22 mockery out of the Rules of the Tribunal.
23 Such a ruling would apply both to the prosecution
24 and the defence. In effect, it would get rid of the
25 discovery obligations, because certainly you never know
1 until you show a witness something whether or not --
2 and, in fact, until your Honours rule, you never know
3 whether or not you will be successful in getting it, but
4 ... I would just ask for a very clear direction,
5 because Ms. Residovic has indicated that if -- she's
6 willing to abide by this Chamber's Rule, and I have no
7 idea how prejudiced we will be by the fact that we
8 haven't clearly received some of this material in the
9 past, but immediately the prosecution would be
10 requesting a very clear order to the defence indicating
11 that Rule 67C requires that they give us immediately all
12 evidence that they intend at the present time to use at
13 trial now in the prosecution case or in the defence
15 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honours, may I speak just very generally
16 to this issue?
17 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Yes, you can.
18 MR. ACKERMAN: I do that not because I have any particular
19 interest in the document that is in question now, but in
20 the broader general rule that may arise as a result of
21 your decision on this particular issue.
22 Rule 66 I think if you read it contemplates that
23 the defence makes a request of the prosecution, and,
24 based upon that request, then the documents the
25 prosecution has are turned over to the defence, creating
1 a reciprocal obligation. The Prosecutor has not
2 perhaps even as of today fully complied with those
3 obligations. We just received this morning, and I
4 haven't even had a chance to look at them, another whole
5 stack of documents. Now I'm not complaining that the
6 Prosecutor ought not to be giving us documents they
7 should be giving us, but here we are, months and months
8 into this case, and they are still giving us documents
9 pursuant to our request under Rule 66.
10 The second thing that concerns me, and that I'm
11 mostly interested in, is this: there may very well be
12 documents in the possession of the defendants that we
13 don't have any present intention to offer into evidence,
14 because we cannot know what a witness might testify
15 to. That document may be all of a sudden, based on
16 that witness's testimony, something that becomes
17 relevant for the purposes of impeachment. I think
18 Ms. McHenry understands that certain documents that you
19 don't intend to use in evidence may be -- based upon the
20 testimony may at that point become relevant for
21 impeachment purposes. So we certainly couldn't be
22 expected to turn over to the Prosecutor and they to us
23 documents which they have no intention of using in
24 evidence until such time as a witness testifies in such
25 a way that makes that document relevant as an
1 impeachment document, to impeach the testimony of that
3 So I guess I'm not disagreeing strongly with
4 Ms. McHenry's position, but I only want to make it clear
5 to the court that we reserve our right to use any
6 document we may have for impeachment purposes if the
7 witness testifies contrary to what we all might expect.
8 MS. RESIDOVIC (in interpretation): Your Honours --
9 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Is that your position even if you
10 breach the obligations to provide documents
12 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honour, the Rule, as I understand it,
13 requires us to turn over documents we intend to use in
14 evidence. I may have a document I have no intention of
15 using in evidence. I have no intention of putting on a
16 witness and putting that document in evidence through
17 that witness. The documents that I intend to put on
18 through the witnesses that I call either have been
19 turned over or will be turned over as soon as they come
20 into our possession. I think that's what the Rule
21 speaks of, but when a prosecution witness takes the
22 witness stand and testifies in an unexpected manner, and
23 all of a sudden there is a document that we have in our
24 possession that we never intended to use, that all of a
25 sudden becomes relevant for impeachment of that witness,
1 then I think we can use it without having had previously
2 turned it over to the prosecution, because it's not a
3 document that we intended to use in evidence in our case
4 in chief.
5 I know and I can absolutely assure you that the
6 time will come when the defence case is going on that
7 the prosecution will make this same argument, because
8 they will hear something from one of our witnesses as to
9 which they have a document they would like to impeach
10 the witness on, and they would not like us complaining
11 that they hadn't turned it over. So it works both
13 MS. McHENRY: If I may just briefly respond --
14 MS. RESIDOVIC (in interpretation): Your Honours --
15 MS. McHENRY: Just to what Mr. Ackerman has said, the
16 prosecution, in fact, agrees with Mr. Ackerman that there
17 are going to be situations where a witness testifies
18 unexpectedly and a document may become relevant that was
19 not previously deemed to be relevant. That's
20 understood and of course there will be such situations,
21 and as long as the prosecution believes that that is the
22 issue, that, in fact, someone in good faith did not
23 believe it was going to be used in evidence, and then
24 something unexpected happens such that it became
25 relevant, the prosecution does not intend to object.
1 That is not the case here.
2 Also just with respect to Mr. Ackerman let me just
3 make it clear: the discovery rules are continuing. So
4 when the prosecution continues to get material, it
5 provides it to the defence, and so the fact that we are
6 giving them documents now, in fact, we think is evidence
7 of our compliance with the discovery obligations. So
8 just with respect to Mr. Ackerman, I don't, in fact,
9 believe there's any disagreement between us. I think
10 the interpretation between Ms. Residovic and I is --
11 MS. RESIDOVIC (in interpretation): Your Honours, I would
12 just say that I'm very surprised and I expect my learned
13 colleague McHenry to apologise for some of the words
14 that she uttered before this Tribunal, that this is a
15 mockery of this Trial Chamber, the way I'm trying to
16 present my evidence. I think that I have spent enough
17 time working this, and I don't think this is a proper
18 way to describe the work of your colleagues.
19 JUDGE JAN: Just a minute. (Pause).
20 MS. RESIDOVIC (in interpretation): This is as regards the
22 JUDGE JAN: You are quite right, but nobody is making
23 mockery of the Rules here, so you can forget about that
25 MS. McHENRY: I am sorry. If anything I said -- I was not
1 accusing Ms. Residovic of making a mockery out of
2 this. I don't know if possibly there was even a
3 translation -- I did use the word "mockery" but not to
4 speak of Ms. Residovic, so ...
5 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Actually these parts of the answers
6 which we have in Rules, it was not intended to operate
7 the way in which it is being interpreted. Do you have
8 anything to say?
9 MS. RESIDOVIC (in interpretation): Your Honours, as you
10 just said, Rule 66 that was invoked on 29th May of last
11 year by the defence and has been complied with as ruled
12 by the Trial Chamber with the different judges, I think
13 that based on that this is not the right way to level an
14 objection against us, and this does not regard only the
15 documents that the Prosecutor intends to use as
16 evidence, but also the evidence that the defence intends
17 to use. So this obligation cannot be completely
18 identified with Rule 67C.
19 We do comply with it, but we have the right to use
20 any document or statements and here the Rule does not
21 speak of the statements. The Trial Chamber has ruled
22 separately on it and we have been complying with that
23 Ruling. We are able to use this either as an
24 aide-memoire or to question the credibility of a witness
25 or authenticate it. We have the right to approach a
1 witness with it and only then do we decide whether we
2 are going to use it in evidence or not.
3 So that triggers off our secondary obligation of
4 discovery. It has to be in the possession of the
5 defence and it intends to -- it has to intend to use
6 it. So there are two criteria, two conditions that
7 need to be met to comply with Rule 67C. The Delalic
8 defence has been complying with the discovery in a much
9 wider way, because I think it is also in the interest of
10 the defence that the prosecution finds out about the
11 potential evidence that we intend to use.
12 So this is our approach, but if the Trial Chamber
13 makes a different Ruling at another time, we will
14 obviously comply with that as well, but I don't see why
15 every time -- especially after yesterday, when the
16 prosecution, not to the Delalic defence, but to defence
17 counsel, has disclosed documents marked for
18 identification, even in a language that they did not
19 understand, then they should be -- they should allow the
20 defence to present their documents in the manner that we
21 -- in which we have been doing it so far.
22 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Thank you very much. I think the
23 defence can tender that -- can put it to the witness.
24 MR. GREAVES: I don't know whether your Honours would
25 welcome two minutes of assistance from me on the
1 phraseology of the Rules for future use, because this is
2 a problem that is going to come again, I suspect. Can
3 I draw your Honours' attention to the way in which the
4 rules are framed? If you look, please, at Rule 66A, the
5 phraseology of the Rule is: "As soon as practicable
6 after the initial appearance of the accused". Similarly
7 in Rule 67A: "As early as reasonably practicable." The
8 draftsman has plainly intended that those phrases occur
9 in those Rules, but there is no such phraseology in the
10 other Rules, and plainly the draftsman did not intend
11 there to be such a time element applied to those Rules,
12 and the Rules must, in my submission, be read in that
14 JUDGE JAN: You see, it's very clear. Rules 66 and 67
15 relate to B trial proceedings. The qualification is
16 intended to be used. While the trial is going on a
17 need may arise where a document which you considered
18 earlier -- which you don't intend to use it in evidence,
19 it may become necessary to use it.
20 MR. GREAVES: Absolutely.
21 JUDGE JAN: Then all you have to do is at the earliest
22 opportunity you give a copy to the defence.
23 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: If you read it carefully, you will
24 find that this is not part of the discovery procedure.
25 The statement is not included in the part of the
1 discovery procedure.
2 MR. GREAVES: Absolutely.
3 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: I think you can tender it.
4 MS. McHENRY: I'm not going to argue with the court once it
5 has ruled, but to the extent how your Honour has
6 interpreted it will affect how the prosecution complies
7 with its discovery rules, and, to the extent that the
8 prosecution must just be able to understand such that it
9 can consider whether or not it needs to take an appeal,
10 I would just ask to understand -- I understand your
11 Honours are going to permit the defence to show the
12 witness. I understand that, but I would just ask for,
13 if your Honours can, the basis for that, so that the
14 prosecution can itself -- because otherwise, for
15 instance, we may stop all -- it will obviously affect
16 what kind of defence we give to the -- what kind of
17 material we give to the defence.
18 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: I think we have carried on in this way
19 with a lot of misinterpretation of things. Now every
20 Rule relating to procedure is strictly construed. If
21 you read 66B, which refers to 67, you will find they are
22 related, and if they are so related, you have to
23 restrict it to the documents mentioned in 66C. If you
24 want to, and you have to read them strictly, and in that
25 case you do not bring in statements, which bears the
1 general rules of interpretation about conduct during the
2 proceedings. They don't come together. You don't mix
3 them in the way you are trying to do. Your obligation
4 to make discovery is clearly stated. You have to do
5 that and you do not tie that to the statements which are
6 now being put forward. It's not tied to it.
7 In any event, we will rise now and resume at
9 (1.00 pm)
10 (Luncheon Adjournment)
1 (2.30 pm)
2 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Yes, Ms. Residovic, you may continue.
3 MS. RESIDOVIC (in interpretation): Thank you. We were at
4 the point when we were going to show the witness the
5 statement he made on 8th June in Celebici.
6 Mr. P, will you look and read the statement and
7 tell us whether that is the statement you made?
8 (Pause). There are a couple of more lines on the other
9 side. Have you read it?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Is that the statement you gave to Mr. Pajic?
12 A. Most of it, yes.
13 Q. Did you sign it? Will you examine the signature and
14 tell us if that is your handwriting?
15 A. It should be like this.
16 Q. Will you tell me what is not correct in this statement,
17 that you think you didn't say and that it was entered
19 A. This part here, the conversation with Dr. Jusufbegovic.
20 Q. You clarified that today, but everything else, that you
21 were in Bradina, in the clinic; is that correct?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. That you treated Radovan Kuljanin, then that you went to
24 treat Nedjo Kuljanin, that you were offered arms, that
25 you refused it, that Dr. Zuza handed in his weapon, the
1 semi-automatic rifle, that you protected a lady;
2 everything that you said then has been entered in this
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Since the witness has recognised his signature and the
6 contents of the statement, I tender it as evidence for
7 the defence. Will you please give me the number of the
8 document, of the exhibit?
9 THE REGISTRAR: It is number D46/1.
10 MS. RESIDOVIC (in interpretation): Thank you.
11 MS. McHENRY: The prosecution objects for the reasons stated
12 prior to the lunch break. In particular, this document
13 had not been provided to us previously and there is
14 nothing in this document which comes as a surprise or
15 can be used as impeachment, and therefore it clearly
16 should have been provided. For that reason we
18 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Yes, carry on.
19 MS. RESIDOVIC (in interpretation): Thank you.
20 MS. McHENRY: Your Honour, for our records, may we just know
21 if the document has been admitted into evidence?
22 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: It has been. Any objection has been
24 MS. McHENRY: Thank you.
25 MS. RESIDOVIC (in interpretation): Mr. P, as you stated
1 before this Trial Chamber, you were released on 22nd
2 July; is that correct?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Actually may I put a couple of questions before we come
5 to that? In answer to my question regarding the taking
6 of this statement, and I asked whether Mr. Pajic had used
7 any force, you answered that on the contrary, he was
8 very polite?
9 A. However, there was a certain psychological pressure that
10 we all felt, because prior to the taking of statements
11 and after the taking of statements people were beaten
12 up, and, in fact, just outside the door of Building
13 Number 22.
14 Q. Very well. Thank you. But I know -- I'm aware of all
15 the torture that you went through going from Bradina to
16 Celebici, but is it true that after that physical
17 torture, you were never later exposed to any force? You
18 were never beaten by anybody; is that correct?
19 A. That is correct, however, but I was cursed 100 times at
20 least, and curses were addressed to my mother and
22 Q. You were never placed in isolation --
23 MS. McHENRY: I'm sorry. I'm not objecting. Since I
24 haven't heard the question, I am going to please request
25 if the counsel and witness could please just go a little
1 slower. Thank you.
2 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Actually, I don't even see the
3 relevance of this trend. There is nothing to object
4 to. The witness is not objecting. It was voluntarily
5 made. He has admitted that, so what is the need for
6 that? The statement has been admitted as such. So
7 what is all the fuss about how he got it made?
8 MS. RESIDOVIC (in interpretation): Your Honours, I'm not
9 putting any more questions regarding the statement.
10 I'm just asking whether until the end of his stay in
11 Celebici he was ever exposed to any measures of coercion
12 except for the fact that he was imprisoned. That we
13 all realise, but having been mistreated on the way to
14 there, I just want to confirm that after that he was no
15 longer mistreated?
16 A. I was not beaten, but, like all prisoners in Building
17 Number 22, we were treated in the same way in terms of
18 food. We were allowed to use the toilet in the morning
19 and in the evening.
20 Q. When you were released, Mr. P, you said that you spent a
21 couple of days in Konjic and then that you lived with
22 your family in Ostrozac; is that correct?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Normally in Ostrozac you slept, you were able to have
25 normal food and clothing in accordance with the
1 possibilities in those times?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. And throughout that period, as far as your possibilities
4 allowed, you extended medical aid to the prisoners who
5 were sick or injured. Isn't that so?
6 A. Not regularly, and I wish to add that I also treated
7 civilians who were sent to me from Konjic, and on the
8 papers accompanying the patients it said "Serbian
9 Hospital, Ostrozac".
10 Q. That happened after your release from the Celebici
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Mr. P, you said that on 22nd April, the guard known as
14 Focak came to see you with the glad tidings that you
15 would be released, that you could collect your things
16 and that for such good news you should treat him?
17 A. That happened on 22nd July, not April.
18 Q. I apologise if I said April. It was on 22nd July at
19 11 o'clock at night?
20 A. At 11 o'clock at night.
21 Q. At the time Mr. Focak gave you the document which
22 conveyed this message of good news. Isn't that so?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. The document included your name and it was signed by a
25 person who apparently issued that document; isn't that
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Later on in your presence a few words were added, that
5 "He's continuing to take care of injured
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Mr. P, though you spent a short time in the Third of
9 March School, you know that during that time the injured
10 prisoners could have visits and could be given food by
11 members of their family?
12 A. That lasted for a very short time, a day or two.
13 Q. Later on you said that about four or five days before
14 your release, that is around July 17th, food began
15 gradually to be admitted, and after the visit of the Red
16 Cross, visits by members of the family to prisoners were
17 also allowed?
18 A. Yes, but the food was checked at the entrance. Much of
19 that food was taken away. Cigarettes were taken away,
20 and some pieces of clothing, mostly underwear and socks.
21 Q. In the certificate on your release there was no
22 indication that your movements would be limited?
23 A. At my request addressed to Mr. Zejnil Delalic. Other
24 persons released later on had a restriction of movement.
25 Q. Mr. P, can you confirm that on one occasion Mr. Eno
1 Tahirovic came to Celebici? . He was commander of the
2 town's defence. He spoke to you and said that the
3 procedure would be accelerated in connection with the
4 treatment of prisoners?
5 A. He did come.
6 Q. You also confirmed a conversation with Major Sefik
7 Kevric in connection with the improvement of the diet
8 and supplies of food for the prisoners?
9 A. Major Sefik Kevric.
10 Q. You can also confirm that the International Red Cross
11 Committee -- or, rather, after their visit conditions in
12 the prison improved quickly and significantly?
13 A. Not as quickly as you think, but it was much better.
14 Q. Mr. P, my opinion is guided by your statements. I'm
15 relying on what you are going to say before this
16 Tribunal, because you have personal experience. As
17 conditions improved, you participated in those
18 improvements; is that correct?
19 A. I don't quite understand what you mean.
20 Q. Well, a certain number of people were released. Some
21 were transferred to Musala. You gave medical advice as
22 to who that should be; is that correct?
23 A. In the presence and in co-ordination with Mr. Pavo Mucic
24 and Mr. Hazim Delic.
25 Q. You also know, Mr. P, that there existed a Commission for
1 Recategorisation, which at the end of August
2 re-evaluated what had been done previously, after which
3 these persons were released; is that correct?
4 A. I know that there were categories.
5 Q. For a time, Mr. P, you participated in the work of that
7 A. No.
8 Q. So if somebody states the opposite, you still say you
9 did not participate?
10 A. How could I possibly participate in the categorisation
11 and determining the seriousness? I'm not a military
12 man. I'm not a lawyer.
13 Q. In mid-August you had been released for three weeks; is
14 that correct?
15 A. After July 22nd I was under house arrest.
16 Q. Mr. P, you did not know whether the prisoners had wanted
17 you to treat them from the very outset?
18 A. No.
19 Q. But you knew -- you were told to go and set up some kind
20 of infirmary where the prisoners could be treated; isn't
21 that so?
22 A. The infirmary already existed when I was transferred
23 from the maternity ward in the Konjic hospital to the
24 Third of March elementary school. I found there the
25 injured who had already been brought there.
1 Q. We are talking about mid-August, that is between 15th
2 and 20th August. At that time, as you said, you came to
3 work daily, usually by car?
4 A. At the beginning I was driven there every day and later
5 on every other, every third day, sometimes even once a
6 week only.
7 Q. At that time, as before, you wrote your daily needs and
8 medicaments and bandages?
9 A. When I went there, then I could write down those
11 Q. But is it correct that around the middle of August you
12 started to write daily -- write down your needs for
13 several days ahead?
14 A. No.
15 Q. At that time you had sufficient bandages?
16 A. No, and it wasn't sterile.
17 Q. Co-operation with the Konjic hospital was good in
18 mid-August, I mean?
19 A. The list I made of medicines, I would receive only a
20 part of the medicines from that list, and I would say
21 that the drum needed to be sterilised. I was not -- I
22 could not rely on the sterilisation even.
23 Q. Mr. P, in front of Building 22 is a concrete area; isn't
24 that so? A plateau?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. Is that so?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. And this asphalt area stretches out into a road towards
4 the entrance to the barracks and at the other end
5 towards Building Number 9; isn't that so?
6 A. I can see the model.
7 Q. When something was being done, if it was too hot because
8 it was the summer, there was no shelter from the sun
9 that you could take shelter or other prisoners, as far
10 as I can see the model?
11 A. We were mostly inside Number 22. Only when Pavo was
12 present would they let us open the door and after the
13 visit of the International Red Cross when I went there,
14 the door was mostly open. I did not have the
15 possibility to go out, as you are trying to imply.
16 Q. I'm not trying to do anything. I'm just putting
17 questions to you, and I beg you to answer them if you
19 Mr. P, you said that you had a conversation with
20 the journalists of Television Sarajevo. The journalist
21 was Ms. Jadranka Milosevic, wasn't it?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. And the photographer was Zvonko Maric?
24 A. That's how they introduced themselves to me.
25 Q. You gave this interview just in front of Building
1 Number 22, the infirmary; isn't that so?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. I would now like to ask the technical service to show us
4 this tape. It was shown to the Prosecutor in July last
5 year and submitted to them two or three months ago to be
6 shown to the witness, to compare it with what the
7 witness has just been saying for purposes of credibility
8 of the witness. May I ask you to show video number 2?
9 MS. McHENRY: Your Honours, before we do this, let me just
10 -- this is a protected witness, and so to the extent
11 that the witness is shown on the video, we have to go
12 into private session.
13 MS. RESIDOVIC (in interpretation): I also propose that we
14 go into private session before we see the videotape.
15 MS. McHENRY: Someone suggested there is a difference
16 between private and closed session. I would just ask
17 that no photograph of the witness be shown is what I'm
18 trying to say.
19 MS. RESIDOVIC (in interpretation): Yes, we agree that it
20 shouldn't be seen on the monitor, on television or
21 anywhere else, just that we can see it here within the
22 courtroom, so that the witness can hear it and the rest
23 of us in the courtroom.
24 (In closed session)
13 Page 4674 redacted in closed session
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13 Page 4676 redacted in closed session
13 Page 4677 redacted in closed session
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13 Page 4679 redacted in closed session
16 (In open session)
17 Q. Mr. P, you also know that some persons from this list had
18 been released, that is they were transferred to Musala;
19 is that correct?
20 A. You think that they were released?
21 Q. Yes.
22 A. Yes. Those who had the categories, if they were
23 category 1, 2 or 3 could not have been released.
24 Q. Yes. That's why I said part of the persons on that
25 list. That's what you explained this morning?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. After the visit of the ICRC did other humanitarian
3 organisations also visit it and did you talk to them
4 about the conditions in the prison?
5 A. While I was still in the prison, in the camp, there were
6 the Pharmaceutics Without Borders.
7 Q. And after the visit of the ICRC?
8 A. I don't remember.
9 Q. Do you remember that in late August you talked to some
10 women who were members of humanitarian organisations and
11 did you talk to -- discuss the conditions in the prison?
12 A. They did not introduce themselves to me. They did not
13 say that they were from a humanitarian organisation.
14 She introduced herself as Teresa and that she was in the
15 Austrian Parliament, and the other one I think was named
16 Marina, and she was brought in in a white Mercedes car
17 with a Split registration plate driven by a young tall
19 Q. At that time you stated that the conditions had improved
21 MS. McHENRY: Excuse me. I am not objecting. I'm just
22 going to ask that the witness wait until the
23 interpretation of the question is done, so that those of
24 us who don't speak Serbo-Croatian can follow.
25 THE INTERPRETER: The answer was "yes".
1 MS. RESIDOVIC (in interpretation): It is true that in the
2 infirmary at that time there were only three to five
3 beds, that is only three to five injured persons?
4 A. I can't recall.
5 Q. Before that there were 12, 13 and even more of them;
7 A. Correct.
8 Q. You stated all this to these representatives of this
10 A. No. I only spoke about medicine.
11 Q. I would like to ask again to go into the closed session
12 and that the witness be shown an interview from the
13 videotape B, and I think -- that the defence got from
14 the prosecution, and I think it's only about a 30-second
16 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: I suppose counsel should know how to
17 organise its own case. Let us know exactly what you
18 want to do. You want to go into closed session again?
19 MS. RESIDOVIC (in interpretation): Yes.
20 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Yes.
21 (In closed session)
1 (In closed session)
13 Page 4683 redacted in closed session
10 (In open session)
11 Q. Mr. P, is it correct that you said to these persons that
12 earlier there was 12-13 beds, and now that it's better
13 that, and there were three or four or five now; is that
15 A. Hold on a second. Let's clarify this. The beds
16 remained there constantly. Later by orders of -- by
17 instructions of Mr. Delic, and I don't know if there was
18 anybody else involved in these decisions, certain
19 persons were brought there from the hangar. That means
20 the prisoners.
21 Q. My question to you, Mr. P, is: did you state this?
22 A. Well, you see yourselves that this was me there.
23 Q. Yes, and you just stated before this Trial Chamber that
24 you did not state this, so can you tell me now whether
25 what you -- did you state to -- what is true, what you
1 said to the representatives of this organisation or what
2 you told to the court today?
3 A. What I said to the court today.
4 Q. Thank you. I would like to tender this exhibit, that
5 is this excerpt, into evidence as well and marked.
6 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: This one?
7 MS. RESIDOVIC (in interpretation): Yes.
8 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: You can do. It is admitted.
9 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.
10 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: It is admitted but I don't even know
11 if this does anything, if this improves anything. It
12 depends on how you see it because the speaker is not
13 well-defined. That could mean so many things. If you
14 want it --
15 MS. RESIDOVIC (in interpretation): The videotape is
16 videotape of the very location where this witness was,
17 so I think it's obvious what its value is.
18 However, Mr. P, finishing my questions to you, you
19 stated that on one occasion you stopped in the vehicle
20 of -- in front of the house of Mr. Delalic and Mr. Mucic
21 was with you and he went upstairs. You stayed in the
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. You did not go up there?
25 A. No, I was even keeping the rifle of Mr. Mucic.
1 Q. And Mr. Mucic only stayed there a very short period of
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Nobody else came out of the house and approached you in
5 that vehicle?
6 A. I think nobody.
7 Q. You don't know who was in Mr. Delalic's house at that
9 A. No.
10 Q. Thank you very much, Mr. P. It was a pleasure and
11 I apologise if I exhausted you with a large number of
12 questions that I posed to you.
13 Thank you, your Honours. I have no more
15 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Thank you very much.
16 Any other cross-examination?
17 Cross-examination by MR. OLUJIC
18 MR. OLUJIC (in interpretation): Apologies, your Honours.
19 I would just like to make room here.
20 Good afternoon, Mr. P.
21 A. Sir, good afternoon.
22 Q. I hope you're not too tired. You've been talking all
23 day, and you have been subjected to a lot of questions
24 both by the prosecution and my colleague. What I can
25 promise you at the outset, I'll not be as comprehensive
1 in my questioning. I will be somewhat shorter.
2 So, Mr. P, we are talking two languages. You are
3 talking in Serbian and I'm talking in Croatian. I
4 think we will understand each other well?
5 A. I think so.
6 Q. Thank you. Let's start. In your statement you said
7 that when you were at Mr. Delalic's that he said -- that
8 he told Mr. Zebic, and he was referring to you: "Look at
9 what your Ustashas did to him." Is that correct?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. So those were his exact words?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Please tell us who did this to you?
14 A. Sir, this was done to me while I was being arrested and
15 taken to the Konjic Sports Hall and to Celebici.
16 Q. Who did this to you? Would it be true that these were
17 Ustashas who did it, as Mr. Delalic said?
18 A. I saw on one of the persons in uniform a chequerboard on
19 the cap. This was in the sports hall. He even
20 greeted me. I cannot remember his first and last name,
21 and I could not recognise him, because my glasses were
22 practically broken at that time, but on the basis of the
23 size of the badge I assumed that he was a member of the
24 HVO, and down there there were members of the TO, but
25 even in the sports hall there were some TO members
2 Q. To clarify, who do you call Ustashas? The TO members or
3 the ones with the insignia?
4 A. You know the ones who I consider Ustashas? Ustashas are
5 people from World War II.
6 Q. So, Mr. P, you allow for the possibility that you were
7 mistreated by somebody else and not, as Mr. Delalic said,
8 by somebody else?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Thank you. Mr. P, you said that on the 27th May
11 Ramoslav Limovic -- Rale Musinovic was the camp
13 A. Yes.
14 MS. McHENRY: Excuse me. I don't like to interrupt, but if
15 I could please ask the witness to take a very, very long
16 pause after the question is asked so that the rest of us
17 can catch up.
18 MR. OLUJIC: In your testimony you mentioned that from Zrinko
19 Brekalo, that you had asked --
20 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Please, Ms. McHenry, you still haven't
21 learned court etiquette. You don't address any
22 questions to counsel. It's not done. I expect you
23 should have known that by now. You can carry on.
24 MR. OLUJIC (in interpretation): Thank you, your Honours.
25 Sir, in your statement you mentioned that you
1 asked Zrinko Brekalo to provide some medical needs for
2 you; is that correct?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Tell me did Mr. Zrinko Brekalo provide you with the
5 necessary supplies?
6 A. Hiding it from the guards when he came for a visit, I
7 would always take out of his bag some kind of medicine.
8 Q. What was he by nationality?
9 A. A Croat.
10 Q. You said in your statement that Zdravko Mucic told you
11 that he was being forced to be camp commander; is that
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Can you explain to us in greater detail when Mucic told
15 you this?
16 A. We were still in the Third of March elementary school.
17 Q. So this happened while you were in the Third of March
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Did he perhaps tell you who was forcing him to become
21 camp commander when he was saying this to you?
22 A. No.
23 Q. In your testimony yesterday you also mentioned that
24 Mr. Mucic took out of his pocket insulin intended for his
25 father, which he offered you for Mr. Mrkajic and, of
1 course, for other reasons, which I won't go into now,
2 you didn't give that medicine to Mr. Mrkajic; is that
4 A. Correct.
5 Q. Tell us, please, how do you explain Mr. Mucic's
6 behaviour? He is giving medicine intended for his
7 father for the benefit of somebody whom you were
9 MS. McHENRY: Your Honours, I apologise for my prior
10 lapse. With respect to this question, I object,
11 because I don't think this witness's interpretation is
13 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: I think he could. He is a doctor.
14 He is trying to test the particular nature of Mucic. I
15 think there's nothing wrong with that. He can give an
16 answer. Let him answer. I think you can answer that.
17 A. I cannot comment on that.
18 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: You cannot comment on the nature of
19 the person who can volunteer medicine intended for his
20 father to someone who requires treatment from you?
21 A. Under normal circumstances I would consider him to be a
22 humane person.
23 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Thank you very much.
24 MR. OLUJIC (in interpretation): Thank you. Will you tell
25 us: the insulin that you did not give to this person,
1 did you use it for another person, a third party? Did
2 you use it at all? Was it used?
3 A. No.
4 Q. You mentioned the list that Mr. Mucic took to
5 Mr. Delalic. Can you recall how many persons roughly
6 were on that list? Was it 10, 15, 20, 30 or more?
7 A. More than 15.
8 Q. Tell us: can it be said that this list included persons
9 who did not need medical attention at all?
10 A. In the first few days no and later yes.
11 Q. How many?
12 A. Very few.
13 Q. Mr. P, did you ever see Mr. Mucic mistreating anyone?
14 A. No.
15 Q. Did you ever hear of Mr. Mucic mistreating anyone?
16 A. No.
17 Q. Can it be said that Mr. Mucic was protecting the
18 prisoners to a certain extent, as far as he was able?
19 A. Do you want my personal, subjective opinion?
20 Q. Yes.
21 A. My subjective opinion is that when he was in the camp,
22 when Mr. Mucic was in the camp, I didn't see him beating
23 anyone. I didn't feel humiliated. Just a moment,
24 please. I was sure that I wouldn't be beaten.
25 Q. Thank you. You told us, Mr. P, that you attended a
1 birthday party of Mr. Mucic's, that there was a feast,
2 that there was roast lamb, that there was plenty of food
3 and that you were invited, and that you remember that,
4 if I understood you well -- please correct me if I don't
5 -- that you remember that date because it somehow
6 coincides with the date of the saint's day of your
8 A. After that.
9 Q. How much later?
10 A. I think it was roughly one day. I'm not quite sure.
11 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Let him answer. Pause for a minute.
12 MR. OLUJIC (in interpretation): Yes, your Honours.
13 I apologise.
14 A. I know that it was after I was released house arrest --
15 into house arrest, yes.
16 Q. Do you, Mr. P, know when Mr. Mucic's birthday is?
17 A. I think it was in August.
18 Q. And when? Is it at the beginning of August or
19 mid-August or the end of August?
20 A. I'm not sure. I just know that I was there. I can
21 even say where exactly I sat, where Mr. Mucic was
22 sitting, where Mr. Zoran Cecez was sitting.
23 Q. Could it have been at the end of August?
24 A. I'm not sure.
25 Q. But do you allow that that could be possible? I would
1 like to help you, because Mr. Mucic was born on 31st
3 A. I don't know.
4 Q. Very well. Let's proceed. Tell us, Mr. P, you spent
5 quite some time in Celebici. You were in touch with
6 the camp. As far as you are aware, what were the
7 competencies of Mr. Mucic in the camp?
8 A. I do not know.
9 Q. You mentioned in your statement today that people in
10 Konjic who were helping the Serbs in their community,
11 they were referred to as the fifth column?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Could you elaborate a little as to what you meant?
14 A. That they were helping the Serbs.
15 Q. And that, therefore, in their environment they had
16 unpleasantness. Would that be correct?
17 A. Probably.
18 Q. In your testimony, Mr. P, you mentioned Mr. Miro
19 Golubovic, known as Golub, and Mr. Zarko Mrkajic, known
20 as Zaro.
21 Q. Did you personally treat them when that was necessary?
22 A. Mr. Golubovic was brought in to Building Number 22. I
23 later learned that Dr. Zrinko Brekalo had intervened on
24 his behalf, as well as Pavo Mucic.
25 Q. Did those gentlemen tell you who had mistreated them?
1 A. Not specifically.
2 Q. Were you able to conclude who had maltreated them,
3 because they were injured?
4 A. They were in building Number 9.
5 Q. Was it perhaps Guska or --
6 MS. McHENRY: Your Honours, I object, because this witness
7 has already said that he had no information about it.
8 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Yes. If he has no information, he has
9 no information.
10 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.
11 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: If he has no information, I think
12 that's the end of it. You need not pursue it.
13 MR. OLUJIC (in interpretation): Thank you, your Honours.
14 I withdraw the question.
15 Mr. P, when that terrible war was raging did you
16 consider Zdravko Mucic your friend?
17 A. I'd rather not comment on that.
18 Q. But I would nevertheless ask you to answer.
19 A. Before the war we were good friends.
20 Q. And during the war?
21 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: He said he couldn't comment on that.
22 This is a fairly difficult one. It's one of mixed
23 feelings. You can grant him that indulgence. He
24 can't comment on that.
25 MR. OLUJIC (in interpretation): Yes, your Honours.
1 Believe me, my intention in putting this question was
2 simply because the Prosecutor apodictically (sic)
3 claimed that she was sure that Mr. P would say that they
4 were not friends, and I will not elaborate that it had
5 to do with a bad conscience, but if the witness does not
6 wish to enter this sphere of intimate relationships, I
7 will not insist, and I'll be satisfied with his answers.
8 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Actually he said enough about their
9 relationship during the time he was in Celebici.
10 MR. OLUJIC (in interpretation): Mr. P, can you tell us who
11 the investigating commission in Celebici consisted of?
12 A. Miro Stenek --
13 MS. McHENRY: Objection. Asked and answered.
14 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Has he answered it before?
15 MS. McHENRY: Yes, your Honour. I believe he has answered
16 it in full.
17 MR. OLUJIC (in interpretation): Not in full. Then I'll
18 rephrase the question. Were they members of the MUP?
19 MS. McHENRY: Objection. Asked and answered. I believe
20 the witness has already said that he believes some were
21 members of the MUP, some were members of the HVO and
22 some were members of the TO, if I remember the record
23 correctly, but he has already answered it.
24 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Do you have any specific question in
25 mind that does not encompass all these things you can
1 ask him?
2 MR. OLUJIC (in interpretation): Your Honours, I shall
3 proceed. Tell us, Mr. P, was Mr. Mucic aware of how you
4 left Konjic municipality, as you told the Trial Chamber?
5 A. I'm not sure.
6 Q. Would you be kind enough to tell us, when the Red Cross
7 came, what did you get in terms of supplies?
8 A. I was not at all registered by the Red Cross.
9 Q. Mr. P, how often did you see Mr. Mucic in Celebici?
10 A. I have already answered that.
11 Q. While you were at the Celebici camp were there any
12 reviews of the prisoners?
13 A. I am not aware of it.
14 Q. While you were staying in the camp, who did the guards
16 A. Mr. Mucic.
17 Q. Were there any clashes between Mr. Mucic and the guards?
18 A. I'm not sure. I didn't observe any such clashes.
19 Q. Mr. P, from your detailed testimony yesterday and today
20 can it be concluded that the worst mistreatment occurred
21 at the time of arrest?
22 A. As far as I personally am concerned, at the time I was
23 arrested, taken to the Sports Hall and taken to
24 Celebici. As far as the other prisoners, let them say.
25 Q. The infirmary you worked in, were there any other
1 patients from outside the camp who used that infirmary?
2 A. Yes. On one occasion I found three persons in uniform,
3 wearing black uniforms. Also I gave them medical
4 aid. I also treated a local inhabitant who hit a group
5 of women riding a bicycle when the women were standing
6 outside the entrance to the camp, waiting for someone to
7 take the food from them.
8 Q. Did soldiers from the front come to that infirmary, the
9 wounded in other words?
10 A. No.
11 Q. Did they use some other facility?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. While you were at Celebici camp did you have a morning
14 review with reading out of names and a greeting of the
16 A. No.
17 Q. Was such a line-up carried out by the guards in the
19 A. I do not know.
20 Q. What uniforms did you see in the camp?
21 A. HVO and later, after 22nd July, of the army of
23 Q. Were there cases of the guards getting drunk in the
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. Did the guards wear -- carry their weapons outside their
2 guard posts?
3 A. I do not know.
4 Q. And were there any conflicts among the guards while you
5 were there?
6 A. I did not see any.
7 Q. Of course I'm asking you to comment on only the things
8 you observed, nothing more. Upon contact with guards
9 was it necessary to salute?
10 A. What do you mean?
11 Q. Did they have to greet each other, give each other the
12 military salute?
13 A. No.
14 Q. Mr. P, did you serve your military service in the JNA?
15 A. Yes, ten years ago, ten years before the war broke out.
16 Q. Did you acquire a rank there?
17 A. I did.
18 Q. Which rank?
19 A. In 1987 I was promoted to the rank of Reserve First
21 Q. That will be all, Mr. P, thank you.
22 Your Honours, thank you.
23 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Thank you very much. Any
24 cross-examination by Mr. Moran?
25 MR. MORAN: Your Honour, having conferred with my client, I
1 think I'm going to accept the rule that sometimes the
2 best cross-examination is to say: "No questions", your
4 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Thank you very much. Any
5 cross-examination by Mr. Ackerman?
6 MS. McMURREY: Well, I'm not Mr. Ackerman. I'm Ms. McMurrey.
7 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: I speak to the leading counsel, who
8 then makes his choice as to who should do it.
9 MS. McMURREY: Certainly. I am -- it's 3.55. May I ask
10 that we begin after our break real quickly? I only have
11 a few questions and I promise to be brief.
12 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: We will come back at 4.30.
13 MS. McMURREY: Thank you.
14 (3.55 pm)
15 (Short break)
16 (4.30 pm)
17 Cross-examination by MS. McMURREY
18 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: I think, Ms. McMurrey, you can proceed
20 MS. McMURREY: Thank you very much, your Honour. May it
21 please the court.
22 Mr. P, my name is Cynthia McMurrey. I am here on
23 behalf of Esad Landzo. I just have a couple of
24 questions for you. One of them is: I know you stated
25 on your direct examination yesterday that you lived in
1 an apartment building that was close to Mr. Landzo's
2 family, I believe, and as a result of that July 12th was
3 an important day to you, one that you remember, because
4 at that time, if you could confirm to me, two of your
5 neighbours were killed on that day too, weren't they?
6 A. 12th July was not the date -- on 12th July 7 or 9
7 military policemen, members of the TO, were killed.
8 That's what I said.
9 Q. Two of those military policemen were Mendici Brabic,
10 nicknamed "Ebi", and Panzer Drazin, who lived in the
11 apartment building next to you, didn't they?
12 A. I don't know that. I did not know them. I knew a
13 military policeman; his name was Mangic. The brother of
14 a military policeman ...
15 Q. That's okay. You were aware that some of the people
16 that you knew were in that group, and if you could
17 confirm to me, those were brutal murders, weren't they?
18 A. I did not see the corpses.
19 Q. Okay. So you didn't see the newspaper articles or
20 anything concerning this murder?
21 A. No.
22 Q. Okay. Thank you. Then I will move right on. Thank
23 you. Another question was: were you ever taken to
24 Mount Igman and were you there on 28th May or 29th May?
25 A. No. Never. There are two same names and last name,
1 different father, and different date of birth.
2 Q. So someone with your same name was on Mount Igman but it
3 was not you; is that what you're saying?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Thank you very much. I want to refer to your testimony
6 from yesterday. Now I don't recall one way or the
7 other. You did talk yesterday about the article in the
8 Telegraf. Were you at Timisoira in Romania?
9 A. You know that. Yes.
10 Q. I'm sorry if I don't remember that. You also stated on
11 page 4539, line 25, yesterday that you had gone to and
12 attended a course in Belgrade:
13 "... where former inmates were there, and then
14 they started talking about these things, which, of
15 course, was very painful to me, and it was then that I
16 learned his real name."
17 Now what you said in the statement was you learned
18 Mr. Landzo's name in Belgrade; is that correct?
19 A. I had taken courses in Belgrade for about three
20 months. At the clinic there were no injured people.
21 This was just a regular hospital for civilians.
22 However, in Belgrade, that is in the city, you can
23 sometimes see some of the detainees and you can meet
24 with them and talk to them.
25 Q. And these meetings are what you are calling the classes,
1 aren't they?
2 A. What I was referring to are the courses in microsurgery
3 -- that was the education that I referred to -- for
4 ear, because before the war I attended three courses of
5 the graduates -- graduate course and I wanted to take it
6 for my MA, as my MA thesis, the study of
7 microplastics. That is for the ear.
8 Q. The question is in Belgrade, when you had an opportunity
9 to visit with other detainees, that's where you learned
10 Mr. Landzo's name, isn't it?
11 A. His real name. I knew his nickname, Zenga.
12 Q. I pass the witness, your Honour. Thank you.
13 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Thank you very much. That's the end
14 of cross-examination.
15 Any re-examination?
16 MS. McHENRY: Yes, your Honour. There will be a brief
17 amount. The Prosecutor has instructed me to ask for a
18 brief recess, so that we can have time to fully examine
19 the evidence that was given to us, so I would be asking,
20 pursuant to the Prosecutor's instruction, for a recess
21 for -- I was going to say 45 minutes to an hour. So I
22 would ask for a recess until tomorrow morning.
23 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Actually we appreciate that you still
24 have arguments for tendering the statements. You still
25 have that argument. There is an outstanding argument
1 about the statement which Mucic's counsel was tendering.
2 MS. McHENRY: That is correct, your Honour. We are
3 currently researching, and I understand that the defence
4 of Mr. Mucic is doing the same thing -- researching the
5 issue. We will be filing, pursuant to your Honours'
6 request, written submissions in the near future.
7 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: So we can have arguments on them.
8 JUDGE JAN: That raises also a very interesting question
9 whether an accused can be forced to provide a specimen
10 of his handwriting; in view of his protection he cannot
11 be forced to incriminate himself. That's a very
12 interesting question.
13 MS. McHENRY: Yes, your Honours. I think it's very
14 appropriate that the matter be fully briefed.
15 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: I think that is what the Trial Chamber
16 thinks. We will have to argue it fully before we come
17 to a decision on it.
18 MS. McHENRY: Certainly we will -- I don't know if
19 Mr. Mucic's counsel knows when they will be able to file
20 their written argument, or if your Honours wish to give
21 us a deadline, but otherwise people are working on it
23 JUDGE JAN: It's an important issue and you should take
24 your time over it. Be ready with your next witness
1 MS. McHENRY: Yes, your Honour. Our next witness -- we
2 were not -- we had not contemplated that we would not
3 have our next witness until this issue was resolved
4 since, as far as I know, the issue will not need any
5 additional testimony from this person. So we had not
6 anticipated that the flow of witnesses would stop while
7 this matter was briefed, argued and ultimately decided.
8 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: I don't think the decision interferes
9 with your calling any other witness. You can
10 proceed. All we need is to get your arguments in
11 support of this being admissible.
12 MS. McHENRY: Yes, your Honour.
13 MR. GREAVES: Unlike my learned friend, I don't have an army
14 of researchers sitting outside helping me, so it will
15 take me a little longer, I suspect, than her, but if you
16 were to give me an idea of when you would expect to hear
17 the matter, then I will oblige you.
18 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: I think a week is too long, but I
19 think -- a week from now.
20 MR. GREAVES: A week from now.
21 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: At the most. Next Wednesday.
22 MR. GREAVES: A deadline to work to is always extremely
23 helpful. It puts a nice amount of pressure on one.
24 JUDGE JAN: That is always dangerous because you have to
25 overwork yourself.
1 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: What I fear is, since you depend
2 largely on the argument of the prosecution, that will
3 guide you as to how to do your research.
4 MR. GREAVES: I think I can anticipate to a certain
6 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Yes. So by next Wednesday we should
7 be able to hear argument. At this stage it appears we
8 have to adjourn until tomorrow morning at 10.00.
9 MS. McHENRY: Thank you, your Honours.
10 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: You don't have another witness now,
11 because we still have about 45 minutes?
12 MS. McHENRY: Yes, your Honour. We do have another witness
13 here, if you wanted to start that witness and then
14 interrupt him tomorrow for the brief re-examination of
15 this witness. We can do that.
16 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Yes.
17 MR. TURONE: Thank you, your Honour. We call then Mr. Mirko
18 Dordic as our next witness.
19 (Witness withdrew from court)
20 JUDGE JAN: He's not a protected witness, Mirko Dordic?
21 MR. TURONE: No, your Honour.
22 JUDGE JAN: We can take these screens away. He relates to
23 which count?
24 MR. TURONE: I beg your pardon, your Honour?
25 JUDGE JAN: His testimony will relate to which count?
1 MR. TURONE: I would say a number of counts. Anyway as a
2 victim he is indicated in counts 30 and 32.
3 (Witness enters court)
4 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Swear him. Swear the witness. Let
5 him take the oath show him the oath so he can take it
6 MIRKO DORDIC (sworn)
7 Examined by MR. TURONE
8 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Yes. You can sit down. You can take
9 your seat.
10 MR. TURONE: May I proceed, your Honour?
11 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Yes, you can.
12 MR. TURONE: Thank you, your Honour.
13 Sir, would you please state your full name for us?
14 A. (In interpretation): Mirko Dordic.
15 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness please be advised to
16 move a little closer to the microphone. Thank you.
17 A. Mirko Dordic.
18 MR. TURONE: Mr. Dordic, what is your date of birth?
19 A. 30th August 1956.
20 Q. What is your ethnic group?
21 A. Serbian.
22 Q. Where were you born?
23 A. In the village of Bradina in the Konjic municipality.
24 Q. Mr. Dordic, what education did you receive, I mean, what
25 kind of schools did you attend?
1 A. Elementary school and then I went first in Bradina and
2 then the secondary school in Mostar with the --
3 specialising in restaurant work and the practice
5 Q. What was your profession in 1992?
6 A. In 1992 I was a waiter in the restaurant company Oracica
7 in Konjic.
8 Q. Where did you live at the beginning of 1992?
9 A. In Bradina, in my family's house.
10 Q. Thank you. Mr. Dordic, was there a time when Bradina
11 was affected by the armed conflict in 1992?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Can you say how and when did this start?
14 A. Well, not the immediate combat, but the situation
15 started already in 1991, towards the end of 1991, and
16 then later it grew up to the attack on Bradina in May of
17 1992, but before that there were some acts of
18 provocation in April, because Bradina is located between
19 two tunnels. In point of fact, we had about 5 or 6 km.
20 of road, it's surrounded by hills, and there are some
21 Muslim villages on the Konjic side, Zukici and Repovci,
22 and on the other side Korca, Danici, Rastani. These
23 are all Muslim villages.
24 Q. Can you say on which day approximately was the village
25 of Bradina itself affected by this armed conflict, this
1 military action?
2 A. The first one happened on 12th May. That was the
3 attack on the heights above Bradina towards Repovci,
4 which was a Muslim village. That was on 12th May.
5 The situation was tense. We had some local village
6 watches, and these people were captured and taken to the
7 Repovci village and there were negotiations with a
8 doctor who had been born there, who was born -- his name
9 was Ahmed Jusufbegovic, and Zvonko Zovko who was
10 commander of the HVO or something like that. There
11 were negotiations and so these two guards of ours were
13 Then this attack continued on 13th, but over on
14 the other side, the hill called Prehulja. That came
15 from the side of the Muslim village of Korca. Tomas
16 Dragan, one of our own, was killed during that attack.
17 He was a Serb.
18 Q. Did this kind of attack last for other days during May
20 A. No. Later there were more negotiations. Some teams,
21 crisis staff teams that negotiated with the Muslim
22 authorities, so that the Serbs would surrender their
23 weapons and that the territory controlled by the Serbs
24 would be taken over. That was supposed to take place
25 on 25th May, and somewhere around 1.00 pm, as was
1 agreed, but instead of this agreement, we had shelling
2 from all sides on the village, and there was a lot of
3 shooting, so that all of us, in fact -- as a matter of
4 fact, everybody was just protecting their own house and
6 We resisted until 26th May, until about 4 o'clock,
7 and then from the other side -- because I was on the
8 east side of Bradina towards Prehulja and Korca.
9 That's where my house is. So over on the other side,
10 the west side of Bradina, we could see houses starting
11 to burn and at one point I came to my house and I saw --
12 this was about 5 or 6 o'clock -- I saw that everybody
13 retreated, that is all the local villagers had retreated
14 to the part where the Muslim and Croat forces had not
15 made the incursion yet.
16 I said: "What is going on?" Somebody said:
17 "Bradina fell and we need to surrender." There was
18 talk about how people were being killed who tried to
19 surrender, so I decided not to surrender. I spent the
20 night in a sort of creek near the house, in a ravine,
21 with my brother, my wife and two children and a
22 neighbour, and in the morning of 27th May we decided to
23 go to try to cross over to the territory controlled by
24 the Serbs.
25 Q. When you say: "we decided", who do you mean, "we
1 decided"? How many people?
2 A. 12 people.
3 Q. Was there a time when you were captured, arrested?
4 A. The night of 27th we spent on Mount Bjelasnica and on
5 28th we continued our journey, our trekking. We didn't
6 know where to go. We wanted to cross over into the
7 territory near Kalinovik or Trnovo or Hadzici, because
8 at that time it was controlled by the Serbs. However,
9 some time towards the evening on 28th May in a canyon
10 suddenly the 12 of us were attacked. They were
11 shooting at us. They said: "Stop". We did.
12 They started coming out of the woods because there
13 is like a small pine wood there, low trees. They
14 ordered us to spread out and we asked them: "Where are
15 you coming from?" We said: "We are coming from
16 Bradina". They immediately started to curse us, that we
17 are Cetniks, that we burned down our own village and now
18 we're fleeing, and that's how it all started.
19 Then this terrible beating and abuse started.
20 First, they searched us and they took everything we had
21 on us, the watches and jewellery and money, and the
22 torture started.
23 Q. Excuse me, by the way, did you ever get back your
24 properties later on or not?
25 A. No.
1 Q. Were these people who captured you soldiers?
2 A. Yes. They all wore camouflage uniforms and they had the
3 insignia of the TO and HOS and the HVO, and later we
4 found out that we were lucky, because had we been -- we
5 were lucky because we were captured by Juka Prazina's
6 people and Juka Prazina was a commander of sort of some
7 special forces, the green berets or the patriotic
8 league, which at the time was a kind of a special unit
9 of the Muslim army.
10 Q. Can you say approximately how many were these soldiers
11 who captured you?
12 A. About 20. 20.
13 Q. You were saying how you were treated by these soldiers
14 after your arrest? Can you describe briefly?
15 JUDGE JAN: He has already said beaten up, cursed and
16 deprived of property.
17 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.
18 MR. TURONE: But can you describe these beatings? With what
19 were you beaten by them?
20 A. They beat us with all kinds of things. They kicked us
21 with rifle butts, with hands. This torture went on for
22 about an hour, and then they led us on foot, but I guess
23 apparently somebody ordered a vehicle to come, and so a
24 small TAM truck appeared. That's a small two-tonne
25 truck. They ordered us to climb up, and as we were
1 climbing onto this truck, they kept beating us. When
2 we climbed on, they ordered us to stand next to the
3 cabin and to raise our hands like this (indicating) and
4 to sing the songs and shout the slogans that they were
5 prompting us with.
6 Q. Mr. Dordic, were you told why you were being arrested?
7 A. No, we weren't told, but we were aware as soon as -- the
8 moment they started calling us Cetniks why they were
9 arresting us.
10 Q. Did you, by the way, in any way take part in the defence
11 of Bradina, of your village?
12 A. I think it became my moral duty towards my property,
13 towards my family house to take part in the defence.
14 Q. Can you explain: how did you take part in the defence of
16 A. The way it ended up being is that I never fired a single
17 bullet. When I went to get the rifle that I had left
18 at home, the three soldiers established that I had never
19 fired a single bullet from it.
20 Q. So you had a weapon; is that correct?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Which kind of a weapon was that?
23 A. (Not translated).
24 Q. Did you have any weapon with you at the time of your
1 A. (No translation).
2 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: We have missed the interpretation.
3 MR. TURONE: I beg your pardon?
4 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: We have missed the interpretation.
5 We are not getting it.
6 MR. TURONE: My question was -- can you repeat, please,
7 because somebody missed the interpretation: did you have
8 your weapon with you at the time of your arrest? Can
9 you repeat the answer?
10 A. (Not translated).
11 MR. MORAN: Your Honour, we are not getting anything either.
12 MR. TURONE: Actually there is no interpretation.
13 THE INTERPRETER: Can you hear this microphone?
14 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: I now hear you.
15 JUDGE JAN: Mr. Turone asked what sort of weapon he had.
16 He has not answered that question.
17 MR. TURONE: You did not hear that? .
18 JUDGE JAN: You can ask him that specifically.
19 THE INTERPRETER: Can you hear now? .
20 MR. MORAN: They are doing some shifting in the
21 interpretation booth. I think they have got it done.
22 They have a dead mike up there. They have been waving
23 at us to tell everybody what is going on.
24 THE INTERPRETER: Thank you.
25 MR. TURONE: So everything is in order now? Thank you.
1 Mr. Dordic, we have to repeat the last questions
2 and answers. My first question was: which kind of a
3 weapon was the one you had?
4 A. An automatic rifle.
5 Q. And did you have your weapon with you at the time of
6 your arrest?
7 A. No.
8 Q. When was that at that time -- where was this weapon at
9 that time, sorry?
10 A. It was in my home. I left it there.
11 Q. All right. Thank you. Can you say approximately how
12 many persons in your village were armed at the outbreak
13 of the conflict and took part in the defence?
14 A. 200 and something, between 200 and 250.
15 Q. Right. Thank you. Now, Mr. Dordic, what happened to
16 you right after your arrest? Where were you brought?
17 A. I reached that point when we climbed on to the lorry.
18 We had to sing some of their patriotic songs, to say
19 some Muslim prayers and certain slogans. I'm sorry,
20 they are rather vulgar. May I repeat them?
21 Q. If you wish.
22 JUDGE JAN: Is it important for us? We are more concerned
23 about the Celebici camp.
24 MR. TURONE: It's not very important actually. Let's go
1 JUDGE JAN: Why have profanity in this court?
2 MR. TURONE: All right. You can go ahead without saying
3 and say what happened after getting into this lorry.
4 A. After about an -- we were beaten all the time during the
5 ride by the Muslim soldiers. We didn't know how many
6 of them there were behind us because we didn't dare turn
7 around. We had to stand up with our arms raised like
8 this (indicating). Then we reached the Mraziste Hotel
9 on Mount Igman. First we stopped in front of the
10 Bjelasnica or Famos Hotel. I am not quite sure which
11 one of the two.
12 We stayed there for a very short time and then we
13 again got into a van which took us to the Mraziste Hotel
14 on Mount Igman. There they put us up in a disco of the
15 motel, of the hotel, and later on a fat man entered.
16 They started -- this man, this fat man ordered us to
17 kneel down and to start praying like the Muslims. He
18 would say the words "Allah egbar" and we had to repeat
19 after him. He kept going around and hitting each one
20 of us, kicking us in the head and that sort of thing.
21 Then at the end a policeman came in. I don't know who
22 he was. I just know that he was wearing a uniform and
23 he told him to go out and put a guard in front, so that
24 no-one else would come in.
25 They brought us a small cup of tea and a small
1 piece of bread for us to eat. Then later the
2 interrogations started. They treated us decently.
3 The person who interrogated me introduced himself as a
4 Serb. His name was Miroslav Bozic. I said what I
5 knew. As we all had injuries -- my ear was cut, for
6 instance -- and later he ordered somebody to bring a
7 doctor to bandage our wounds and to give us some
8 medicine, and that was done.
9 So we spent the night there and the next day we
10 were ordered to load some grain which was loose and we
11 had to fill in sacks and load them on to a truck, though
12 we had been beaten up, and then in the evening, when
13 they took us back to the same room where we had been
14 before, suddenly some people came in. They were
15 carrying some kind of red rags, and they blindfolded us
16 and tied our hands behind our backs and said that they
17 were taking us to Grude for the Ustashas to kill us.
18 They made us climb the lorries. I didn't know
19 where we were going. We drove for about an hour. I
20 know that it was bumpy, the road was bumpy. It was a
21 dirt road. After some time the lorries stopped. They
22 ordered us to get off and one by one we were taken
23 somewhere. As we were blindfolded I didn't know
24 where. When they took off the blindfolds, I realised
25 that it was the silo in Tarcin, which I had visited
1 before, so I knew what it looked like. They immediately
2 brought us some rice, a small dish of rice, and four of
3 us shared one and a piece of bread each. Then they
4 brought a bucket for us to use as a toilet. Then there
5 was a guard walking round, uttering provocations and we
6 spent the night there.
7 In the morning there was interrogation again.
8 They weren't so decent. This time there were
9 beatings. They asked us things that we really didn't
10 know at all and then they took us back to the premises
11 where they had put us the previous night.
12 A little later two men in uniform came from
13 Konjic, whom I knew. I knew one of them personally.
14 He had worked with me in my firm. He was a lawyer,
15 Nusred Sabcibovic. He said that we were to go with
16 him, that we would be transferred from there. After
17 some time he went out and a little later the doors
18 opened and a soldier ordered us to get out. We went
19 out and outside the entrance to the silo a bus was
20 waiting. It was getting dark already.
21 We climbed onto the bus. They ordered that we
22 were not allowed to look around, just look in front of
23 us, and they said that they were taking us to Grude.
24 After about 1 km or so the bus stopped. Another five
25 Serbs from Bradina got in. They had also been captured
1 there. On Mount Igman they had captured another two,
2 so now there were 19 of us in total. There were about
3 ten of their soldiers in the bus. They were constantly
4 insulting us, cursing us and threatening us with Grude.
5 I really thought they were taking to us Grude, because
6 when they -- when we passed through Konjic, I thought
7 that we really were going to Grude, but then the bus
8 turned left. I realised immediately where we were
9 being taken, the former army barracks in Celebici.
10 Q. Mr. Dordic, what day was that? Do you remember the date
11 you arrived at Celebici?
12 A. May 30th, in the evening, on May 30th.
13 Q. Where exactly did the bus stop? Did the bus stop inside
14 the camp?
15 A. Indeed the camp, in front of Hangar Number 6. I didn't
16 know what the numbers were. I later learned it was the
17 infamous Number 6. It stopped five or six metres from
18 the door. At that moment I saw that there was a light
19 inside and the first person who was standing in front of
20 the bus. I saw that there was a gauntlet, that two
21 lines of soldiers were lined up, and when the door
22 opened, Hazim Delic was standing at the entrance. He
23 was carrying a crutch. I can't remember what it was,
24 which leg it was. I suppose he had been wounded. He
25 was there to decide which one should be beaten and which
1 one should not.
2 Q. What happened then with this -- gauntlet, you say?
3 A. Well, the gauntlet -- I suffered tremendous blows,
4 because during the arrest already I was beaten up, so
5 that my eyes had all swollen up. I was all black and
6 blue. I just remember seeing at the end of the
7 gauntlet a soldier known as Labud, and I assume that he
8 hit me with his rifle butt here on the forehead. For a
9 moment I lost consciousness. I could just hear voices
10 in the distance.
11 I was moving on my four legs and at one point I
12 heard someone calling me: "Mrki, come here! Come here!"
13 So I turned towards that voice. It was Ratko Mandic
14 who was calling me. Then they washed me, so that
15 I came to. They asked me where we had been captured.
16 I said at Bjelasnica and so on.
17 Q. Excuse me, Mr. Dordic. Going back to this gauntlet
18 passage, did the people hitting you in the gauntlet say
19 anything during the beating?
20 A. They cursed us all the time, our Cetnik mothers, and
21 that sort of thing.
22 Q. Did Mr. Delic say something on that occasion?
23 A. Yes. Just as my turn came, he said: "This one", because
24 at the time I had a beard, and for them anyone who had a
25 beard was a Cetnik.
1 Q. So, Mr. Dordic, was that the building, Building 6, the
2 building where you were brought? In which building of
3 Celebici detention camp were you taken after your
5 A. The building that they called Number 6.
6 Q. Did you receive any medical treatment for your injuries
7 right after you --
8 A. No. No.
9 Q. Mr. Dordic --
10 A. Only some water, if somebody managed to get hold of
11 some, because it was not allowed to help each other when
12 somebody was beaten up, and after beatings there is
13 dehydration and everybody needs water, but rarely could
14 anyone get hold of that water, because they didn't dare,
15 because they would be beaten.
16 Q. All right. Thank you. So can you say: how long did
17 you stay in Hangar 6 in all?
18 A. In Hangar 6 I stayed -- let me see -- from 30th May
19 until 21st August. Until 21st August the camp
20 commander, Pavo Mucic, he moved me to the Konjic Sports
21 Hall and there I spent ten days and after that on 31st
22 May in the morning --
23 Q. Of May, 31st May?
24 A. I'm sorry, 31st August, 31st August in 1992 in the
25 morning Pavo came, Pavo Mucic, and told us that some of
1 us would have to go back to Celebici, that some would be
2 released, and that some others from Celebici would be
3 transferred to the Sports Hall.
4 Around noon Hazim Delic came. He was holding a
5 list. He started reading out the names of people who
6 were going back to Celebici. I was on that list.
7 Q. You mean you went back to Hangar 6 on August 31st?
8 A. On 31st August I went back to Hangar Number 6, where
9 I stayed until somewhere around the end of November,
10 when I was transferred to a building. It was Number
11 22, which they called an infirmary, and I stayed there
12 until December 9th, 1992, when I was transferred among
13 the last 32 detainees to the Konjic Sports Hall.
14 Q. All right. Thank you, Mr. Dordic. Now coming back to
15 the very first day when you arrived at Celebici, that
16 means May 30th, when you first entered Hangar Number 6
17 approximately how many prisoners did you observe being
18 in Hangar 6 when you first arrived in that hangar?
19 A. According to my estimate, about 100, maybe more.
20 I couldn't count them, because I was in great
21 suffering. About 100.
22 Q. Were any of these prisoners familiar to you?
23 A. Most of them.
24 Q. Were they from Bradina as well, or from other villages?
25 A. There were some from Bradina and from Brdjani, from the
1 Serb village of Brdjani.
2 Q. Did any of these prisoners have traces of injuries?
3 A. All of them. All the prisoners had been badly beaten
4 up. They were black and blue. Some had already had
5 some bandages. Some of them had band-aid on their
7 Q. Did you personally see any of them receiving any medical
8 treatment right after your arrival in Hangar 6?
9 A. Let me see. In the evening of 30th Radoslav Vujicic
10 was taken outside, probably because he was helping us
11 when we asked for water. At that moment, we don't know
12 who it was beat him up so badly that both his arms were
13 broken. Then the next day Hazim Delic came and gave
14 him some injections. I don't know what it was. He
15 said: "Friend, who did this to you?" Because this
16 Radoslav Vujicic had worked with Hazim Delic before.
17 That's all that I remember seeing.
18 Q. Sir, did the number of prisoners in Hangar 6 have any
19 variation during your stay there?
20 A. The numbers were increasing all the time, so that at one
21 point there were about 250 of us. This was in June,
22 July, somewhere until 21st August, so that it ranged.
23 About ten days later the number went up to about 250.
24 Q. Thank you. Can you now describe the physical
25 characteristics of this building, of Hangar 6?
1 A. In my estimate it must have been some kind of a
2 garage. I don't know exactly how long and how wide it
3 was, but about 25 metres by 12, something like that.
4 There was a concrete floor. There were metal sheets on
5 the sides and a metal roof.
6 Q. Were there -- was there a door or more than one door?
7 A. On one side of the hangar there were those big doors
8 like accordion along the whole wall of one side and then
9 at the end of the other there was a small door that
10 opened outwards, and that was the door that we used.
11 Q. Were there any windows in the hangar?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Mr. Dordic, did any prisoner have a given position inside
14 the hangar, inside Hangar 6?
15 A. Yes, it was Hazim Delic who told each one of us where we
16 would sit. We all had to sit there folded with our
17 knees up, our arms on our knees, and to look down for a
18 time, and then later when he walked in, we all had to
19 get up.
20 Q. So, your Honour, may I ask, please, that the witness be
21 provided with the photocopy of the prosecution Exhibit
22 Number 1, page seven, the map that we have used already
23 many times, please. May the usher place it in the
25 Mr. Dordic, if you look at this piece of paper, can
1 you recognise this map as the map of Hangar 6?
2 A. Yes. Yes.
3 Q. Can you indicate the door of the hangar on the map?
4 A. This is -- all this was a door and this was the small
5 door (indicating).
6 Q. Using this map, can you please show to the court how
7 were the prisoners distributed inside Number 6? I mean,
8 how were their positions organised inside the hangar?
9 A. (Indicating). There were about 100 of us and we were
10 lined up like this, and later when the number increased
11 to about 250, then there were another two rows across
12 the middle here.
13 Q. Did you personally maintain the same position during the
14 whole period of your stay inside the hangar?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Can you indicate on this map your position inside Hangar
18 A. I was fifth from the end here.
19 Q. Can you mark, please, with an "X" your position there so
20 that we might --
21 A. Somewhere here, number five from the end. There was a
22 pillar here and I was third from the pillar -- rather,
23 fourth from the pillar.
24 Q. I'm asking you to sign an "X" there marking your
25 position inside the hangar with a pen, please.
1 May I ask the usher to give a pen to the --
2 A. Where should I put a cross? Here, where the cross is.
3 Q. Thank you.
4 Your Honour, may I tender this photocopy with the
5 right position of the witness inside the hangar for
6 admission? It should be Prosecution Exhibit
7 number 15 ..
8 THE REGISTRAR: 157.
9 MR. TURONE: 157. Okay. Thank you.
10 Now, Mr. Dordic, how were the general conditions of
11 life in Hangar Number 6? I mean, food, drinking water,
12 etc., and sleeping facilities.
13 A. The food was very bad. We got something twice a day
14 and it consisted of each time a slice of bread. One
15 loaf was shared into 14 or 18 pieces. Two or three
16 spoonfuls of some kind of vegetable. Then there were
17 periods when we received nothing and this was from
18 13th-17th July, when we got no food at all, and we
19 prisoners from Bradina were not even given water. The
20 water was also distributed two or three times a day.
21 One bottle was shared by about seven or eight people,
22 depending on how many people there were between the
23 pillars that supported the structure. We were lucky if
24 the bottle happened to be one of a litre and a half
25 rather than a litre.
1 As far sleeping facility, we slept on the concrete
2 floor. If anyone had a jacket or something to put
3 beneath him. Our shoes served as a pillow. We
4 couldn't look after our hygiene at all. We washed very
5 rarely. For toilet needs the time was fixed. We were
6 taken out twice a day for urination. If you wanted to
7 go to the toilet for some other reason, you had to ask
8 the guards, but that also depended on who was on duty.
9 I know that Hazim Delic would force us to go to
10 urinate in a group of 30-40 people. We had to run
11 there. Upon his command he would say: "Take it out.
12 Stop." This was very short, the time we had. We just
13 ran out and had to run back, so that there were people
14 who just didn't have enough time to finish.
15 On one occasion when the Red Cross came -- I think
16 the representative was Michel -- and he measured the
17 time, and about 250 of us finished urination in less
18 than three minutes.
19 Q. There was a toilet facility inside the hangar too, a
20 container, or something, or not?
21 A. Yes. There was a bucket. I don't know what it had
22 been used for. We used it at night for -- to urinate
23 in. We were taken out and we used a hole that had a
24 plank across it, a board.
25 Q. Thank you.
1 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Mr. Turone, I think we have to stop
3 MR. TURONE: Yes, your Honour.
4 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: And continue tomorrow morning.
5 MR. TURONE: Certainly.
6 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: At 10 o'clock.
7 MR. TURONE: At 10 o'clock in the morning.
8 (5.30 pm)
9 (Hearing adjourned until 10.00 am tomorrow morning)