Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 4728

1 Thursday, 10th July 1997

2 (10.00 am)

3 (In open session)

4 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Good morning, ladies and gentlemen.

5 Can we have the appearances, please?

6 MS. McHENRY: Good morning, your Honours. I'm Teresa

7 McHenry. I appear here with co-counsel Mr. Giuliano

8 Turone, and our case manager, Ms. Elles van

9 Dusschoten. Mr. Niemann continues to be out of town and

10 will not be here this week or next week but will be here

11 after that. Thank you.

12 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: May we have the defence appearances

13 please?

14 MS. RESIDOVIC (in interpretation): Good morning, your

15 Honours. I am Edina Residovic, defence counsel for

16 Mr. Zejnil Delalic. Mr. Delalic is co-defended by my

17 colleague Mr. Eugene O'Sullivan, Professor from Canada.

18 MR. OLUJIC (in interpretation): I am Zjelko Olujic, defence

19 counsel for Mr. Zdravko Mucic. In my team is my

20 colleague Michael Greaves, attorney from the United

21 Kingdom and Northern Ireland.

22 MR. KARABDIC (in interpretation): Good morning, your

23 Honours. I am Salih Karabdic, attorney from

24 Sarajevo. I am defence counsel for Mr. Hazim Delic.

25 Together in my team is Mr. Thomas Moran, attorney from

Page 4729

1 Houston, Texas.

2 MR. ACKERMAN: Good morning, your Honours. I am John

3 Ackerman. I am here representing Esad Landzo. I'm

4 assisted by Cynthia McMurrey.

5 May I take just a moment to raise a matter with

6 your Honours?

7 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Yes, you can.

8 MR. ACKERMAN: At the end of our work here yesterday we were

9 informed that there has been a new order regarding the

10 way our clients are handled here while at the court.

11 My client, Mr. Landzo, for instance, was put in an almost

12 impossible situation this morning. A little tiny room

13 that is hot, has no air, and it was very difficult for

14 us to have any communication with him this morning.

15 There may be a reason for that, but if there is, we were

16 not advised that there is any recent incident that has

17 occurred to justify these harsher measures of detention

18 while present here at the court. We have no idea what

19 that comes from or why it's being done, and it seems at

20 the very least all defence counsel are entitled to be

21 told why these harsher measures are being instituted

22 with regard to our clients.

23 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Thank you very much. I think we'll

24 refer the matter to the Registrar, who might be able to

25 give an explanation as to what is happening and how to

Page 4730

1 remedy it. I'm sure they will deal with it quickly.

2 John, I think you'll take it on.

3 Ms McHenry, I think you still have

4 re-examination.

5 Witness P (continued)

6 Re-examined by MS. McHENRY

7 MS. McHENRY: Yes, your Honour. I just have a couple of

8 questions for him in re-examination. Then I have

9 another issue to bring up to the court with respect to

10 Witness P. I can do that after my -- it is probably

11 best that I do this now. I would just ask that we go

12 into private session for this, and, to the extent that

13 I get to explaining to your Honours certain information

14 that's not known to the witness, I would ask that your

15 Honours, with respect to this, that the witness be asked

16 if he can take off his earphones, because I don't want

17 there to be any suggestion that somehow I have

18 influenced him by hearing what I'm going to say.

19 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Yes. It's better you complete your

20 re-examination before going into that.

21 MS. McHENRY: Okay. Fine, your Honour. Sir --

22 JUDGE JAN: Take off his --

23 MS. McHENRY: I heard the judge to indicate I should ask

24 what is technically part of my re-examination first and

25 then we will handle the other matters. That is how

Page 4731

1 I understood your Honour.

2 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Perhaps it is fairer not to complete

3 these other matters with the examination itself until

4 that were concluded and other matters which are

5 incidental might come later.

6 MS. McHENRY: Okay. Thank you. Sir, after you were first

7 arrested and brought to Mr. Delalic's house in the early

8 morning hours of May 27th, can you please tell us, when

9 Mr. Delalic talked with Dr. Ahmed Jusufbegovic, did

10 Mr. Delalic ask him to put you to work or tell him to put

11 you to work?

12 A. The tone was raised --

13 MS. RESIDOVIC (in interpretation): I apologise. There is

14 no basis for this question on the part of the

15 prosecution. This question had been asked and

16 answered.

17 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Your question is --

18 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

19 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Your question is what did he say about

20 the witness. Is that what you want to say?

21 MS. McHENRY: My question is on direct examination I believe

22 the witness testified that Mr. Delalic told

23 Mr. Jusufbegovic to put the witness to work. On

24 cross-examination raised by Ms Residovic he, in response

25 to a question by Ms Residovic, I think, may have given

Page 4732

1 some ambiguity about whether or not -- who was asking

2 and who was telling. To the extent there's any

3 ambiguity, I just want to -- I'm not positive there is

4 any, since he said what he testified to clearly on

5 direct, but to the extent that there is, I'm trying to

6 clarify the matter.

7 MS. RESIDOVIC (in interpretation): Your Honours, both the

8 question and the answer were clear enough and there's no

9 basis for bringing this question again on the part of

10 the prosecution.

11 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: I think you are putting your question

12 in the alternative, suggesting which of them, but I

13 don't think that is necessary.

14 MS. McHENRY: I am sorry. I tried very hard to give

15 alternatives so I wouldn't be accused of suggesting to

16 him what the answer was.

17 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: That's what you have done. You asked

18 him questions which could make him choose which of the

19 things he was --

20 MS. McHENRY: I have asked him to choose but I don't believe

21 I have suggested the answer to him, but I am happy to

22 reword it, if your Honours think that would be better.

23 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: The suggestion is that the question

24 Ms Residovic asked was ambiguous.

25 MS. McHENRY: On cross-examination, that is correct.

Page 4733

1 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Well, it wasn't. It was very clear

2 who was speaking to whom.

3 MS. McHENRY: Yes, your Honour, it was very clear. Maybe I

4 can find the transcript. It was very clear. I think

5 there's no ambiguity at all who was speaking.

6 Mr. Delalic was speaking with Dr. Jusufbegovic.

7 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Yes.

8 MS. McHENRY: I think that there may be some ambiguity as to

9 exactly what Mr. Delalic said and if he was asking or

10 telling.

11 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: But that was not the purpose of the

12 cross-examination, was it?

13 MS. McHENRY: I don't know exactly what the purpose was, but

14 to the extent I thought there was some ambiguity, that

15 defence counsel might argue there was some ambiguity in

16 the record, I wanted to make sure that the record was

17 clear. I don't think it's important. If your Honours

18 wish --

19 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: No, I don't think so.

20 MS. McHENRY: Fine. Sir, you testified in

21 cross-examination that there were HVO uniforms in the

22 camp before 22nd July. During this time before 22nd

23 July did everyone at the camp, including Mr. Landzo and

24 Mr. Delic, wear HVO uniforms or did just some people?

25 Can you please clarify?

Page 4734

1 A. The HVO uniforms were worn by Mr. Pavo Mucic, Buric

2 Zeljko. Mr. Pavo Mucic's driver, Zjelko Buric, wore the

3 HVO uniform and the other uniforms were the TO uniforms.

4 Q. What about Mr. Mucic's uniform indicated he was from the

5 HVO? Was there any insignia or how could you tell?

6 A. I don't remember the insignia on Mr. Mucic's uniform but

7 I do remember the insignia on the uniform of Buric.

8 Q. Thank you, sir. Sir, in September when you went with

9 Mr. Mucic to Mr. Delalic's apartment with the list of

10 prisoners, did Mr. Mucic say anything to you about to

11 whom he was going to give that list of prisoners?

12 A. No. He said that he was taking it to the archive.

13 Q. Okay. Thank you. Your Honour, that completes my

14 questions in --

15 JUDGE JAN: Direct -- re-examination.

16 MS. McHENRY: In re-examination. Thank you, your

17 Honours.

18 I have another matter that may involve this

19 witness, and I wish to find out how your Honours wish to

20 handle it. I would wish to ask that in private

21 session, and I think it would probably be appropriate,

22 so there's no suggestion that I've influenced the

23 witness, that the witness be asked to take off his

24 microphone -- his headphones.

25 MR. MORAN: Your Honour, I don't know whether this witness

Page 4735

1 speaks any English at all or not, but if there's going

2 to be some discussion, it's pretty conceivable that one

3 of the two lawyers from ex-Yugoslavia may be saying

4 something and they will be definitely speaking in a

5 language I can understand without an interpreter. It

6 may be more appropriate if he left the room for a couple

7 of minutes.

8 MS. McHENRY: That's a fair point.

9 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: I think so. If it concerns him, he

10 doesn't have to be here. When we take a decision about

11 him, he will know what the decision is.

12 MS. McHENRY: Fine, your Honours.

13 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: If he has concluded his evidence, he

14 can be discharged.

15 MS. McHENRY: He has concluded his evidence concerning the

16 questions he was asked thus far. I would certainly

17 notify the court that the prosecution may be seeking to

18 recall him for other purposes other than directly what

19 he has testified to, and that's what I wanted to bring

20 up with the court, to find out whether or not the court

21 wished in the interest of economy and efficiency and

22 getting some of this information out, which may be

23 directly relevant to things your Honours are hearing

24 now, or whether or not you wish to seek -- whether or

25 not you wish us to recall him at a later time.

Page 4736

1 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Definitely if he has concluded his

2 evidence in respect of what he has been invited to, that

3 is all for the time being. If there is any intention

4 to have him for some other thing, then that application

5 is a different one and we have to take it into account,

6 but not in his presence.

7 MS. McHENRY: Fine. I would ask that he be excused and

8 that I be permitted to address your Honours briefly in

9 private session.

10 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Yes. Thank you very much, Mr. P. You

11 are discharged for the time being. If the prosecution

12 wants you for another thing, they'll get in touch with

13 you.

14 MR. MORAN: I am not going to put words in Ms. McHenry's

15 mouth but it might be appropriate to ask him to wait in

16 the witness room, have a cup of coffee, wait for fifteen

17 minutes. Would that be something the prosecution

18 accepts as a suggestion.

19 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: That depends on the way the prosecution

20 organises themselves.

21 MS. McHENRY: The prosecution welcomes that suggestion.

22 (Witness withdrew from court)

23 (In closed session)

24 (redacted)

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Page 4740

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25 (In open session)

Page 4741

1 (Witness enters court)

2 MIRKO DORDIC (continued)

3 Examined by MR. TURONE

4 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Will you kindly tell the witness he is

5 still on his oath?

6 THE REGISTRAR: I should like to remind you that you are

7 still testifying under oath.

8 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Mr. Turone, you can start.

9 MR. TURONE: Thank you, your Honour.

10 Good morning, Mr. Dordic. Yesterday we were

11 tal(redacted)king about your first arrival in Celebici and

12 description of conditions of life in Hangar 6. Now

13 I would go back to your assertion about your possession

14 of a weapon and my question is: was there a time while

15 you were in Celebici when you were requested to hand

16 over this weapon or any weapon you might have been --

17 might have had?

18 A. (In interpretation): good morning. I should like to

19 continue. A few days after I was brought to Celebici

20 the guards called me, and when I came out of the hangar

21 Guska Jasmin was waiting for me, who was, I think,

22 secretary of MUP, Sevko Niksic, who was the Commander in

23 the police station, and Sadik Dzumhur, known as Diksa,

24 who before the war was the director of a military

25 training centre belonging to the Territorial Defence in

Page 4742

1 Borci. Borci is a Serb village, which was then under

2 the control of Serbian forces -- of the Serb people,

3 I mean. They asked me -- Diksa shook hands with me and

4 asked me how I was. I said: "You can see how." Then

5 he asked me: "Do you know where Rajko is?" I said I did

6 not. He told me he had been arrested and that he was

7 in Number 9. He asked me whether I wanted to see

8 him. I said: "No", because I thought that was just a

9 trick.

10 JUDGE JAN: This is not a question you asked.

11 MR. TURONE: Can you explain who is Rajko?

12 JUDGE JAN: This is not the question you asked about the

13 weapon.

14 MR. TURONE: I imagine he is going there.

15 JUDGE JAN: You have to direct him.

16 MR. TURONE: Could you please be more responsive to my

17 question?

18 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Repeat your question again.

19 JUDGE JAN: Ask him a straight question.

20 MR. TURONE: My question is: was there a time while you

21 were in Celebici when you were requested to hand over

22 your weapon or your weapons, if any.

23 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Limit your answer to this question.

24 A. I'm telling you in the order things happened.

25 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: No. You were asked about weapons and

Page 4743

1 what you said --

2 MR. TURONE: Yes.

3 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: You don't have to go that far back.

4 MR. TURONE: You are invited to arrive anyway to the answer

5 of that question. Thank you.

6 JUDGE JAN: You see, he told us yesterday that he had an

7 automatic rifle which he left at home before going out

8 to take protection in some Serbian area. So you asked

9 him: "In the camp somebody asked you to surrender the

10 weapon?" Let him say that.

11 MR. TURONE: I believe the witness understood my question.

12 A. I understood and in that conversation Jasmin Guska asked

13 me: "Did you have a gun?" I said I did. He asked me:

14 "Where is it? Did you surrender it?" I said: "No,

15 I had it near the house", because Jasmin Guska was a vet

16 for some time. I had cattle and he would visit

17 often. He knew where my house was. I explained where

18 the rifle was. Then he asked me: "Would you come with

19 me so that we can bring it?" I said: "Yes". He said:

20 "Okay. I'll send somebody to take you there."

21 After some time I went in the hangar. They went

22 away. Then they called me again. There were three

23 policemen: Vahid Alagic; somebody called Sljivo -- he

24 was a goal keeper in the Igman soccer team -- and

25 another one, another policeman, whom I knew by sight but

Page 4744

1 I didn't know his name. We sat in a police car, a

2 Golf, and we headed for Bradina. The policeman I

3 didn't know and Sljivo kept insulting me, saying how

4 I stank, how all Cetniks stink, and then this other one

5 warned them not to behave like that way. My hands were

6 tied behind my back. I was sitting on the back seat.

7 We got to my house, if I may put it that way.

8 When I came out I saw that everything was burnt down; so

9 what used to be my house. My mother was in front of

10 it. She was about 70. Sljivo started beating me.

11 Vahid had told him not to, because my mother was

12 watching me.

13 MR. ACKERMAN: Excuse me, please. My understanding of the

14 question was: "Were you required to surrender your

15 weapon?" It seems to me the obvious answer to that is

16 "yes". If it always takes this long to say "yes", we

17 may be here three or four days.

18 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Actually they were going to collect

19 the weapon. I agree with you.

20 JUDGE JAN: It's too long.

21 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: That is a familiar pattern in this

22 case.

23 MR. ACKERMAN: Yes, it is.

24 MR. TURONE: I wanted to ask him how did that happen. He

25 is answering. May I --

Page 4745

1 JUDGE JAN: Ask him whether they were able to recover the

2 weapon or not.

3 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

4 JUDGE JAN: Ask him whether they were able to recover the

5 weapon or not. That is simple.

6 MR. TURONE: How did it happen that you --

7 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Did you recover the weapon when you

8 went with them?

9 MR. TURONE: This is exactly --

10 JUDGE JAN: Ask him to answer that question.

11 MR. TURONE: Did you recover the weapon and hand that weapon

12 over? This is what he is actually answering.

13 JUDGE JAN: He is not answering that. He is giving an --

14 A. I'm telling you how this happened, how I recovered the

15 weapon. Vahid asked me where it was and I explained

16 where it was. He said: "Do you know the number of the

17 rifle?" I knew.

18 MR. MORAN: Your Honour, I am going to object at this time

19 that it is still unresponsive both to the question

20 Mr. Turone asked and the question that Judge Jan asked,

21 which is a fairly simple question: "Was it recovered?"

22 This is like asking somebody what time it is and he

23 tells you how to make a watch. As Judge Karibi Whyte

24 said, it is a familiar pattern.

25 MR. TURONE: May I respond to that? I would invite the

Page 4746

1 witness to be a little bit faster in arriving to the

2 point, but anyway we cannot prevent the witness,

3 I believe, your Honour, from giving his account of his

4 experiences as he recalls them anyway.

5 MR. MORAN: Sure you can. You can ask --

6 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: That's where we want the experience.

7 You did not want the experience in this case. What you

8 wanted was whether he was asked about a weapon. He

9 said he was. Now whether he now recovered the weapon

10 and gave them to them -- gave the weapon to them. He

11 did. I suppose that's all.

12 MR. TURONE: Exactly, your Honour. So did you hand the

13 weapon over to them?

14 A. I had just got to that spot when we found the weapon.

15 I showed them where it was. The policemen jumped over

16 a fence. Before they asked me what the number of my

17 rifle was I told them. They looked at the rifle.

18 They checked and they knew it was mine by the number.

19 They checked to see whether I had fired from it. It

20 was clean, so they confirmed that I hadn't fired a

21 single bullet. We got back into the car and they took

22 me back to Celebici, to Number 6.

23 Q. All right. Thank you. So apart from this episode,

24 were you interrogated by military investigators while

25 you were in Celebici?

Page 4747

1 A. About ten days later an interrogation occurred. They

2 called us in groups of five, six, sometimes ten. A

3 soldier would come with a list, calling out the names of

4 people who had to make statements. There were five or

5 six of us in my group. I don't exactly remember all

6 the names. We were taken to the command building of

7 the camp. We were lined up against the wall, facing

8 the wall, and we had to stand like this (indicating),

9 with our arms raised, and to show two fingers in a

10 V-sign. One of the soldiers would call out people one

11 by one to go to the interrogation room. It still

12 wasn't my turn. Somebody patted me on the shoulder.

13 I turned around and this person said: "Hello" to me.

14 It was Nusret Sacibovic, who used to work with me. He

15 worked in the same company as I. He was a lawyer there.

16 But here he acted as a military investigator. He told

17 me: "Mrki, be careful what you say. This is an

18 important list and you are on it."

19 When my turn came, I entered the office. When

20 you go in it was to the left. When I went in, I saw

21 Miro Stenek, somebody called Tomic, whom I knew. He

22 was a teacher, and a typist, Ismeta. I don't remember

23 her surname.

24 Q. Mr. Dordic, where were you treated before the

25 interrogation, while you were waiting for your turn?

Page 4748

1 A. I was facing the wall with my hands raised against the

2 command building outside.

3 Q. All right. So when you entered the room and you saw --

4 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: That was not your question. Your

5 question was: where was he treated? That was your

6 question.

7 MR. TURONE: Is there anything else to say about how you

8 were treated waiting your turn?

9 A. We didn't see who it was, but the military men were

10 provoking people, saying things, but there was no

11 beatings, at least not in my group. They were just

12 saying nasty things and cursing us.

13 Q. All right. After entering the room where Stenek, Tomic

14 and Ismeta were, did you see any of these people in

15 uniform?

16 A. No.

17 Q. And how were you treated during this interrogation?

18 A. Correctly, at least as I was concerned, because Stenek

19 knew me personally.

20 Q. During this interrogation were you in a position to face

21 the window of the room?

22 A. Yes. Yes.

23 Q. And what could you see through that window?

24 A. I could see soldiers walking around.

25 Q. During the interrogation were you accused of anything

Page 4749

1 specific?

2 A. They kept accusing me. I said what I knew. Some of

3 the things I denied. At one point Stenek even offered

4 me a cigarette. I had one and then he said: "Go on

5 talking", that he was sure that I was speaking the

6 truth. Then they asked me whether I was a member of

7 the SDS, that is the Serbian Democratic Party. I said

8 I wasn't and I indeed was not. Then they asked me many

9 other things, how the weapons had reached us, whether

10 there was any military organisation in Bradina, and that

11 sort of thing, where I was arrested.

12 Q. Did you sign any piece of paper after the interrogation?

13 A. I did. I signed a statement.

14 Q. Was that a long interrogation?

15 A. No, it wasn't very long, in my case.

16 Q. Did they interrogate you again about your weapon?

17 A. Yes, later on, during my stay in the camp, individual

18 guards, if that is how I can call them.

19 Q. I mean during this interrogation were you interrogated

20 --

21 A. No. Yes, they asked me about weapons. They spoke

22 mostly about weapons. During the interrogation they

23 spoke most about weapons.

24 Q. Did you give them any answer to this issue, concerning

25 this issue of weapons during the interrogation?

Page 4750

1 A. Yes. Yes.

2 Q. What did you tell them?

3 A. They asked me how I had got my weapon. I told them

4 I had bought it and that sort of thing, on the black

5 market.

6 Q. Were there any judicial proceedings against you after

7 this interrogation?

8 A. No, but for some others there was at the end, in the

9 course of 1994. For some of the inmates who stayed

10 until the end, until the exchange, some criminal

11 proceedings were initiated. One of the detainees was

12 sentenced to 12 years.

13 Q. Did this interrogation have any other legal consequence

14 concerning your position? Did they take any decision

15 concerning you after this interrogation?

16 MR. MORAN: Your Honour, I'll object to that question unless

17 it can be shown that this witness is somehow an expert

18 on what legal -- or has some feel for what legal

19 consequences were --

20 JUDGE JAN: I do not think this is an appropriate

21 question. He wants to find out whether he was

22 prosecuted on the basis of his statement or not. He

23 just wants to find out -- not the legal consequences in

24 the abstract sense -- he means: was he prosecuted on the

25 basis of his statement or not?

Page 4751

1 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

2 JUDGE JAN: This is what he wants to find out.

3 A. We were put into groups that they only knew what they

4 were about. There were several categories, first,

5 second, third. Then we learned through the guards and

6 through Ismeta which category we had been placed into,

7 which category of detainees.

8 Q. Did you get to know in which category you were

9 classified?

10 A. Yes. I was put into the first category, as one of the

11 worst.

12 Q. Okay. Thank you.

13 A. And this was confirmed later, because I was among the

14 last group of 32 people to leave the camp.

15 Q. Now, Mr. Dordic, you can see a model in front of you.

16 Can you understand what does this model represent? You

17 can stand up, if you wish.

18 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: You can stand up.

19 MR. TURONE: You can even turn around the table, if you

20 wish.

21 A. It was the former barracks of the Yugoslav People's

22 Army, which was later transformed into the Celebici camp

23 when we were brought there.

24 Q. May I ask the usher to provide the witness with

25 something to point, and I would like you, please, to

Page 4752

1 indicate in this model the places you have been talking

2 about already. I believe the court will allow you to

3 turn around the table, if you feel better so doing.

4 A. Will you be able to hear me? This was the entry to the

5 former barracks, later the camp and women were put there

6 (pointing). My sister and some other relatives were

7 here.

8 THE INTERPRETER: We can't hear very well. I'm sorry.

9 MR. TURONE: I'm sorry. They cannot hear you, because your

10 microphone is too far away.

11 A. This was the entrance to the former barracks. This was

12 the reception where women were accommodated, detained

13 women. Among those women was my sister and my

14 brother's wife. This was the command building

15 (pointing). These were some dormitories and warehouses

16 and some toilets, and this was the building known as the

17 infirmary, Number 22. This was the road leading there

18 (pointing) to where I stayed, to the hangar. This was a

19 water tank.

20 MR. MORAN: Excuse me. Can he identify that building? He

21 is saying: "This is this". The transcript is not clear

22 what he is identifying. Each of those buildings has a

23 number or letter on top of it. If he could say: "A was

24 the administration building", I think that might make

25 the record clearer and a whole lot easier to read at

Page 4753

1 some future date, which is something I think we are all

2 going to have to do.

3 MR. TURONE: All right. Can you please say what is on the

4 sticker of the several buildings you have been

5 recognising, please?

6 A. (Pointing), A is the reception, where the women were.

7 B is the command building. D is a warehouse, a

8 dormitory and some toilets and things. E is

9 Number 6. This was a warehouse. There was somebody

10 called Kernic. That's number F. They were repairing

11 weapons there. Here again there were some warehouses

12 I knew. We unloaded certain goods that were coming

13 here to these warehouses.

14 Q. All right. That might be enough.

15 A. We unloaded weapons here two or three times.

16 I participated in unloading weapons somewhere in June

17 and July.

18 Q. Thank you. Mr. Mirko Dordic, you can --

19 A. Let me just add there was a machine-gun nest here

20 (indicating) and a bunker was over here that some

21 detainees had to dig for the guard Landzo. This is

22 where we went to urinate, to piss -- I'm sorry -- and

23 this is a hole (indicating) that was dug that we used as

24 the toilet.

25 Q. Thank you, Mr. Dordic. You can sit down again. So,

Page 4754

1 Mr. Dordic, did you personally suffer any other physical

2 maltreatment during your stay in Celebici besides the

3 beating on the very first day?

4 A. Well, yes. That's a longish story.

5 Q. Do you mean -- did that happen once or more than once?

6 A. That happened several times. The first time it was

7 somewhere --

8 Q. Please go --

9 A. Shall I --

10 Q. Can you please describe in detail one by one every

11 single incident, if possible in chronological order?

12 Thank you.

13 A. The first beating that I experienced down there was when

14 I was brought out by the guard Landzo and Mr.dzic Kemal

15 and some name called Salko that was also waiting there.

16 I know his first name was Salko. They brought me to

17 this hangar number -- letter F. They put me against a

18 wall and they asked me about some grenade, some pistols,

19 and I had no answer for that. They kept kicking me but

20 that didn't last long and then they returned me to the

21 hangar.

22 After a while on one occasion Delic came in,

23 followed by Landzo. They walked around. They looked

24 all prisoners over. We were all looking down with our

25 legs pulled up. At one point they came to me and they

Page 4755

1 said: "You", and ordered me to come out. Zenga took me

2 out. He had a stick in his hand and later on I found

3 out it was a baseball bat, because I had not seen it

4 before.

5 JUDGE JAN: Who had that baseball bat? There were two

6 persons, Landzo and Delic. Who had the baseball bat?

7 There were persons, Landzo and Delic. Who had the

8 baseball bat?

9 A. The baseball bat, Landzo. He brought me outside and

10 brought me to hangar letter F. He lent me against the

11 wall. I was leaning against it, facing it (indicating)

12 and leaning with my hands and then he put a piece of

13 metal in my mouth so that I could not be heard, that

14 I would not utter noises, and he started beating me on

15 the legs and in the ribcage. He kept asking about a

16 machine-gun. It went on for a long time. I think he

17 was asking for this machine-gun, I think M-53. I

18 didn't know about it but there was a man later who knew

19 where this machine-gun was. So he kept insisting to me

20 to tell him where it was. He kept beating me. I fell

21 down several times, losing consciousness. He would

22 raise me again and continue to beat me.

23 When he had had enough -- well, that took a long

24 time -- I could barely get back to the hangar. The

25 prisoner next to me, Jovan Kuljanin, he said he was

Page 4756

1 counting the blows and I had received over 200 of them,

2 up to 250. I was all black and blue so that after a

3 period of time following that I was immobile. I could

4 not get up. They had to help me. I had water and

5 I would put some water on my pants, on my calves, so

6 that the swelling would subside somewhat, so that these

7 haematomas, these bruises, would go away.

8 Q. Could you say approximately when did this incident

9 happen, at least in which month?

10 A. I think this was in June, end of June, the second part

11 of June.

12 Q. Okay. Then can you describe then any further incidents

13 you suffered personally?

14 A. I was constantly a victim of Zenga's. Every time he

15 would walk into the hangar, when he would walk from

16 prisoner to prisoner, he would come to me and he would

17 order me to get up and do push-ups. He would count and

18 as he was counting, he would kick me in my ribs. So

19 I would have to do ten push-ups. I would have to do 50

20 of them in order to get ten correct ones according to

21 him. He kept kicking me all the time.

22 Q. Did Mr. Landzo say anything in doing that to you usually?

23 A. Rarely.

24 Q. I didn't get the translation of this.

25 THE INTERPRETER: Rarely.

Page 4757

1 A. Rarely. Rarely.

2 MR. TURONE: Can you say then anything about any further

3 incident you suffered personally?

4 A. My next -- how shall I put it -- duel with Landzo was

5 some time in mid-July. He came to the spot where

6 I was. He had me get up and said to other prisoners:

7 "You'll see what's going to be left of him". I thought

8 that he was going to kill me, but he brought me to the

9 door. We did not go out. He just brought me to the

10 corner there, and he ordered me to kneel down. I knelt

11 down.

12 He poured gasoline. I saw there was a bottle for

13 the lighter. He had pincers and he started heating

14 these pincers. He asked me: "Where's Mico?" I didn't

15 know at that time what Mico he was referring to. Only

16 later I understood who it was and I told him that I

17 didn't know. When he heated these pincers enough, he

18 started -- he ordered me to open my mouth, to stick out

19 my tongue, and then he started squeezing it on my tongue

20 (indicating). He started burning my tongue. It was

21 like being grilled. Then on the nose, and then at one

22 point he went into the ear. He stuck the pincers and

23 I felt a great pain and I screamed. I realised -- and

24 something started rumbling in my head, and all this was

25 observed by one of the guards. I think it was Salko,

Page 4758

1 and he said: "Here comes Pavo". He ordered me to go back

2 to my place immediately and he ran out.

3 Later some prisoners -- one of them got some

4 yoghurt and one of them gave it to me so that I would

5 alleviate my pain and also the temperature. It took at

6 least a month before all this was healed. Only about

7 20 days later did I -- was I allowed to go and be

8 examined, and this was after Zenga was removed from the

9 camp. He was chased from the camp. I think Pavo did

10 that. There was a visit by Dr. Relja Mrkajic and Petko

11 Grubac. After their intervention I was taken to the

12 infirmary. I had pus coming out of my ear all the

13 time. Relja told me at that time and he said my ear

14 drum had been ruptured.

15 Q. Thank you. Is there any other episode, any other

16 incident you suffered personally you can remember and

17 describe?

18 A. There were these collective beatings. These collective

19 beatings -- now this was just the row that I was in.

20 Somebody was talking a bit louder and Delic came in the

21 door and asked then a Cecez whom he had appointed as

22 sort of like room leader. He said: "Who is making

23 noise here?" He sort of just pointed to our row. He

24 had a baseball bat in his hand. He ordered us to get

25 up, facing the wall, and he beat us. I don't know how

Page 4759

1 many times he beat everyone. He hit me twice. After

2 these collective beatings there were others.

3 Q. Excuse me, Mr. Dordic. Did Mr. Delic say anything in

4 doing that, in beating you?

5 A. No.

6 Q. Please go ahead to the next incident.

7 A. The next collective beating was following 12th July.

8 Later we found out that on that day --

9 Q. Excuse me, Mr. Dordic. By the way, when approximately

10 did the first collective beating you just said take

11 place?

12 A. Some time in early July, early in July.

13 Q. Thank you.

14 A. The next collective beating was immediately following

15 the 12th, so that was on 13th July, and later we found

16 out that a group of Muslim police in Bradina was

17 killed. There was a duel among them, and then they

18 tried to blame all this on us. So we had several

19 collective beatings. It was mostly done by Delic.

20 When he would get tired, someone else would take over,

21 either Landzo or Kemal Bendzic or another one whose

22 nickname was Focak -- we didn't know his name -- or some

23 others. These collective beatings went on for a very

24 long time.

25 Q. Any other incident after this?

Page 4760

1 A. The next collective beating was after the visit of the

2 International Red Cross. The International Red Cross

3 came to us in August -- I think it was 12th August --

4 and delegates -- the representatives of the Red Cross

5 entered the hangar and instructed the guards to get out,

6 but they probably were listening to what we were

7 saying.

8 The Red Cross registered us at that time. They

9 distributed cards that we filled out, and that was a

10 sign of registration. They asked about conditions.

11 We talked about the behaviour of the guards. After

12 their departure, and it was close to dusk, at one point

13 Delic came in with a group of -- I'd say 12 soldiers.

14 He split them into two groups and ordered the ones

15 against the wall to face it, to sit down and put hands

16 like this (indicating). Then kicking started, so to

17 speak. All the guards went one by one and everybody

18 was kicked several times. I think I received about 20

19 blows to my kidney area at that time, and Delic was then

20 commanding, and he had some favourites, and he would

21 say: "Pass this one over." So these would be passed

22 over. After it was done, he ordered: "Turn around."

23 We did and they left the room. They left the hangar,

24 that is.

25 The next collective beating was some time in

Page 4761

1 September, when they found playing cards which we --

2 makeshift playing cards which we had made out of

3 cardboard to pass the time. Delic and some other guards

4 beat us at that time with shovel handles and other

5 tools, and that also went on for a long time, and we

6 were all beaten. In the end I was brought out together

7 with a few others. I don't know the names. I know

8 that one of them was Damjan Dordic.

9 He brought us out of the hangar. He put us

10 against a wall and he ordered some guards to beat us.

11 I saw that I was being beaten by Seki -- that's his

12 nickname and last name Pajic. He said: "Sorry, buddy",

13 because, you know, we were good friends. He said:

14 "I'll beat you lightly."

15 However, one of the guards, Zajko Camdzic said:

16 "What are you stroking him for?", and Zajko Camdzic, he

17 beat me with a plank which was 10 by 5 cm., which was

18 used to prop the door. So at that moment -- how shall

19 I put it -- I relieved myself in my pants, and I said:

20 "Well, I'm finished now. Beat me." Then he said:

21 "Look, the Cetnik has shat". Then he ordered someone

22 to bring water for me to wash up and I did.

23 Q. When you say: "He said: 'Look ...'", etc., who is the

24 person you are talking about when you say "he"?

25 A. It was Delic, about me, because at that time I had

Page 4762

1 relieved myself in my pants.

2 Q. Is there any other incident concerning you personally

3 during the period of your stay?

4 A. The next incident was after another visit by the Red

5 Cross. I guess the International Red Cross ordered of

6 them or requested of them when there was only a small

7 group of prisoners that remained to put up beds for us,

8 and when they were doing that, then there was another

9 beating, and Delic brought me out at that time and beat

10 me together with another group of about ten prisoners.

11 They were kicking us in the kidney area and in the

12 crotch.

13 Q. Can you say approximately when did this happen?

14 A. This was some time in October. I'm not sure but

15 I think it was in October. I'd say late October.

16 Either late October or early November, somewhere around

17 there.

18 Q. Was there any other incident you suffered personally, or

19 was this the last --

20 A. The last collective beating took place on 1st December,

21 when we had already been moved to Number 22. This

22 group of 32 prisoners. This was during the day, and

23 Delic walked in. He had a note or a letter, and he was

24 looking for Miroslav Boric. He asked him: "Is your

25 wife's name Zora?", and he started reading it, from his

Page 4763

1 letter that his wife Zora in the village of Kukrice is

2 looting Muslim houses and is taunting Muslims. I don't

3 know where this letter had come from.

4 So he took Miroslav Boric out and we heard

5 terrible blows. He was beaten for a while. I did not

6 see by whom, because the door was closed. After a

7 while they shoved him back into the hangar. Then he

8 called -- there was a guard. His nickname was Crni.

9 I think his name was Nermin. He was from the Doboj

10 area. He started selecting particular prisoners and

11 then we heard them -- brought them out. We heard them

12 being beaten. We couldn't see. The door was

13 closed. At one point he came in and he said: "All the

14 ones who had been captured in Ljuta near Kalinovik have

15 to come out." There was a group of prisoners who had

16 been captured there. So out of those 32 it was only

17 four of us who were not beaten and I was one of those

18 lucky ones. This was just before his arrest. He was

19 arrested on 2nd December. We learned that from some

20 guards. That was the happiest news for us.

21 Q. Right, Mr. Dordic. Did you personally during your stay

22 see any mistreatment of any other prisoners, specific

23 mistreatments of any other prisoners while you were in

24 Hangar 6?

25 A. Yes, I saw quite a bit of that.

Page 4764

1 Q. So would you please describe in detail the incidents you

2 observed personally one by one, and can you describe

3 them in detail and possibly in chronological order?

4 A. I can recall certain things in order and some others

5 I may not. I can start in order. You know, you try

6 to forget these things anyway. Let's begin, for

7 instance, with Mrkajic Vukasin.

8 Q. What did you see about this?

9 A. This Mrkajic Vukasin was one of the prisoners that was

10 really tortured a lot. He was always suffering blows

11 especially by Hazim Delic. He would always hit him,

12 almost every time he would come to the hangar. He

13 would at least get a kick or two in the kidney area.

14 Landzo also did the same. On one occasion Landzo tied

15 -- what is it -- a slow-burning fuse around his waist,

16 around the genitals and stuck a piece in his anus, and

17 then he lit the other side, and ordered him to run

18 around, and he did, and when he -- when it reached the

19 end, he started dancing around, and later he let him go.

20 Q. Mr. Dordic, can you say approximately when did this

21 incident happen to Vukasin Mrkajic?

22 A. That was in July. I think it was late July or

23 mid-July, somewhere around there.

24 Q. Did that happen inside the hangar?

25 A. Yes, inside the hangar.

Page 4765

1 Q. Could you personally see the person putting fire on the

2 fuse?

3 A. Yes. Yes, I did.

4 Q. Who was this person?

5 A. Landzo, Mr. Landzo.

6 Q. How did the fuse -- was the fuse wrapped around the body

7 of Vukasin Mrkajic while he had dresses -- trousers on

8 or not?

9 A. He took off the trousers and he wrapped it around his

10 bare skin and then after it was wrapped up, he ordered

11 him to put the trousers back on and only one piece would

12 stick out that he would light.

13 Q. All right, Mr. Dordic. Any other incident you --

14 A. He did the same thing to Risto Vukalo, the same thing

15 with the fuse, same case. He would wrap it around his

16 waist. He would light it in the same manner and he

17 would run around until it was all burnt out. Also

18 Risto Vukalo had to do push-ups, just as I had to, very

19 frequently. He would do push-ups and he would kick him

20 in the ribcage. Once he even beat him with a folded

21 military belt and he ordered him to lie down on the

22 stomach and his back was -- his bare -- he had ordered

23 him to take off his tee shirt and he was beating him on

24 the bare back, and all this was happening inside the

25 hangar.

Page 4766

1 Q. Did the incident with the fuse concerning Risto Vukalo

2 take place the same day as the one concerning Vukasin

3 Mrkajic or on different days?

4 A. Different days, I think.

5 Q. The mistreatment was done by the same person?

6 A. Landzo, yes.

7 Q. So can you now describe any further incident concerning

8 other prisoners you might have eyewitnessed?

9 A. The next incident, also with a fuse, was on prisoner

10 Vaso Dordic. He did the same thing, ordered him to

11 pull down the pants. He wrapped fuse around his waist,

12 around his genitals and put -- stuck the end in the

13 anus, and then he had to put on trousers again, and he

14 lit the fuse, and he had to run around until it was

15 burnt out.

16 Q. Mr. Dordic, can you say approximately when did this

17 incident take place, the one concerning Vaso Dordic?

18 A. Some time in July, because he was brought in -- Vaso

19 Dordic was brought in to Celebici camp on 12th July in

20 the evening, at night.

21 Q. Right. Did you -- did these three people receive any

22 medical care after these incidents, as far as you know?

23 A. No.

24 Q. Did Mr. Landzo say anything doing all this to these

25 people during these incidents?

Page 4767

1 A. He was saying something to Vaso but I don't know what.

2 I was far away. At the time when he was doing it, he

3 was telling him something but I don't know what it was.

4 Q. All right then. Is there any other incident concerning

5 other prisoners you saw?

6 A. For instance, two brothers, Veso and Vaso Dordic, on one

7 occasion -- Zenga abused them badly inside and outside

8 of the hangar. Once he entered the hangar, ordered

9 them both to get up. They did.

10 Q. When you say "he entered the hangar", who do you mean?

11 A. I mean Landzo. I'm talking about Landzo. He entered

12 the hangar. He ordered these two brothers to get up.

13 They got up. They stepped aside. I don't know who he

14 ordered first to kneel down. He ordered the other one

15 to take off the pants and then he ordered him to put his

16 genital in the mouth. That went on for a couple of

17 moments, I don't know how long. Then he switched them,

18 so that the other brother was doing the same thing. He

19 laughed at that and he was telling them something.

20 That was Zenga.

21 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: I think we will break now and come

22 back at 12.

23 MR. TURONE: Yes, your Honour.

24 (11.30 am)

25 (Short break)

Page 4768

1 (12.00 noon)

2 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Mr. Turone, you can carry on.

3 MR. TURONE: Thank you, your Honour.

4 So, Mr. Dordic, you were talking about an incident

5 concerning Vaso and Veseljko Dordic. Can you say --

6 the oral sex incident. Can you say where exactly did

7 that happen inside the hangar?

8 A. Just in front of where they were sitting, almost right

9 next to the entrance.

10 Q. Thank you. Did you hear Mr. Landzo saying anything

11 during this incident?

12 A. He was laughing and saying something, but I didn't

13 understand what.

14 Q. Okay. So is there any other incident concerning other

15 prisoners you might have eyewitnessed personally?

16 A. There was, with Dusko Bendjo. He also suffered from

17 Zenga. Zenga humiliated him terribly within the hangar

18 and outside it. In the hangar Zenga would burn Dusko

19 Bendjo. He would force him -- no, not burn him, sorry

20 -- he would force him to do push-ups while he was

21 hitting him in his ribs. Then he called him out once,

22 took him outside, and after some time when Zenga brought

23 Dusko Bendjo back into the hangar, his trousers were on

24 fire. One leg -- I think it was one trouser leg, his

25 right one, I think. Zenga was standing at the door and

Page 4769

1 he said that no-one may extinguish it. He sat down and

2 the trousers burnt until they were extinguished of their

3 own. When Zenga left, his brother, Dusko's brother,

4 and some others took off his trousers, what was left of

5 them, and they saw large burns, wounds on his legs.

6 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honour, we are getting to a point where

7 he is starting to talk about what other people heard and

8 saw. He's not testified that he saw any burns or

9 wounds, but he says: "They saw." I would just like the

10 court to remind him that he is permitted to talk about

11 what he saw, and if the prosecution wants to introduce

12 what someone else said they saw, then they have to go

13 through the proper foundation.

14 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Ask him whether he saw the instances

15 he is describing.

16 MR. TURONE: Mr. Dordic, did you personally see the leg of

17 Mr. Bendjo?

18 A. Yes, because he was about 6 to 7 metres away from me --

19 in fact, even less than that, because his position where

20 he sat was not very far from me.

21 Q. So could you --

22 A. He was just across the way.

23 Q. So could you personally observe details of how this leg

24 appeared?

25 A. Yes. Yes.

Page 4770

1 Q. Can you describe this leg?

2 A. There were big blisters, so big (indicating), on his leg

3 from his thighs right down to the lower leg on the front

4 side.

5 Q. All right. Thank you, Mr. Dordic. So is there any

6 other incident concerning a prisoner, another prisoner,

7 you could eyewitness yourself in part or in all?

8 A. On one occasion Zenga -- actually, he was constantly

9 taunting and beating Nedjelko Draganic. On one

10 occasion he took him out, and when Nedjelko returned, we

11 saw that -- I think it was his left trouser leg that had

12 been burnt as far as the knee almost, and on the lower

13 leg we saw a big wound, a big blister of this size. He

14 was maybe 3 metres away from me, maybe even less. He

15 told me that Zenga had poured him with gasoline.

16 MR. ACKERMAN: Excuse me. I asked a moment ago that the

17 witness be instructed not to testify what other people

18 told him. I wish the prosecution would be more careful

19 with that and at least establish the proper foundation

20 who it was who told him and whether or not reliability

21 can be established for that. That's my objection.

22 MR. TURONE: May I respond, your Honour? The witness is

23 describing what he saw with his eyes concerning the leg

24 of Mr. Nedjelko Draganic. So my question is: could you

25 see personally the leg of Mr. Draganic when he came back

Page 4771

1 into the hangar?

2 A. Yes, and I also watched him for the next month at least,

3 because he was 2 or 3 metres away from me.

4 Q. Right. Thank you. Did Mr. Nedjelko Draganic and

5 Mr. Dusan Bendjo receive any medical care after these

6 incidents?

7 A. This prisoner, prisoner Bendjo, maybe after some time we

8 treated him ourselves with primitive ways. One of the

9 prisoners had some toothpaste on him, and he put it over

10 his wounds, over the blisters, which burst later on, so

11 these wounds took a long time to heal. Nedjelko

12 Draganic, not straightaway, but a couple of days later

13 was taken to the doctors. They cleaned it up,

14 I suppose -- I don't know what -- because the wound had

15 become infected.

16 Q. Again about Mr. Draganic, right after he returned to the

17 hangar, did Mr. Draganic say immediately what had

18 happened to him outside?

19 A. Yes, he told us immediately, and we saw anyway that his

20 leg had been burnt, that he had -- and he told us that

21 it was Zenga who had done it.

22 Q. All right. Any other incident concerning other

23 mistreatments to other prisoners inside Hangar 6?

24 A. On one occasion Zenga came through the door and he

25 stopped in front of Momir Kuljanin's place. He took

Page 4772

1 him out. I don't know what he did to him, but when

2 Momir Kuljanin came back, he had a terrible blister on

3 his hand this size (indicating). This was 5 or 6

4 metres from me. I can show you where he sat. He told

5 us that Zenga had heated a knife on a flame and that he

6 had forced him to hold that knife with his hand.

7 Q. Did Mr. Momir Kuljanin receive any medical care after

8 this incident, as far as you know?

9 A. No.

10 Q. Did you personally eyewitness, observe any other

11 mistreatment besides what you said so far?

12 A. There was a lot of that. I could start telling you

13 about it. Each time Hazim Delic entered the hangar,

14 because he came as a big boss -- he always had two

15 pistols at his belt. Sometimes he was wearing a

16 camouflage uniform, sometimes in black. He often came

17 with a gun with his fingers on the trigger. On one

18 occasion he was holding the gun up. He fired. The

19 bullet hit the roof. It splintered, and on that

20 occasion a piece of the bullet hit Davor Kuljanin on the

21 forehead, Branko Mladic on his finger, and Momcilo

22 Mrkajic somewhere here in the neck. He took them out

23 immediately to the infirmary, to the doctor. They took

24 out the shrapnel. I didn't see it, but that's what

25 I was told. The shards were taken out.

Page 4773

1 Q. Did you observe any other incident concerning other

2 prisoners while you were in Hangar 6 besides all this?

3 A. Whenever he came to the hangar --

4 Q. Excuse me. When you say "he came", who do you mean?

5 A. Whenever Delic entered the hangar, and he would come

6 five or six times a day -- I'm talking about Delic -- he

7 would come five or six times a day, and almost every

8 time he would pick out Nedjelko Samoukovic because he

9 was next to the wall. He would order him to turn

10 around and he would hit him with his legs. He would

11 kick him, or with a baseball bat in the kidney area and

12 in the genitals. He would do this almost on a daily

13 basis until Nedjelko was transferred somewhere in July

14 to Number 9, as they called the popular tunnel. Later

15 when he was brought back from Number 9, when Nedjelko

16 Samoukovic was transferred on 31st August again, then

17 Delic continued to do that almost on a daily basis.

18 Q. Is this all you can say about mistreatments of other

19 prisoners, or is there any other incident you might

20 describe without entering into the issues concerning

21 people who died, I mean?

22 A. There were daily incidents. Principally, on one

23 occasion Landzo came in. He was walking from one

24 prisoner to the next and he reached the position of

25 Milivoj Gligorevic. This was 2 metres or 1.5 metres

Page 4774

1 away from me. He made -- he ordered him to turn around

2 to face the wall in his sitting position. He took a

3 shoe and ordered Boro Koprivica to hit him with the shoe

4 on the body. Boro Koprivica, when he was arrested,

5 suffered terrible injuries, so that he was

6 off-balance. He started hitting him lightly, and then

7 he ordered him to hit him much harder. He took the

8 shoe away from him and showed him how he should hit him

9 and then he did. After some time he ordered them to

10 stop.

11 There were other such cases. For instance, Zenga

12 once reached a father and son, Danilo and Miso

13 Kuljanin. He ordered them to get up and start hitting

14 each other. At first they did it lightly. Then he

15 ordered them to do it harder, and so they had to do as

16 Zenga told them. So this went on for some ten minutes,

17 this mutual beating. Then Zenga, Landzo, did the same

18 with two brothers, Vaso and Veso. All this was

19 happening inside the hangar. He also ordered them to

20 get up and slap each other, which they did. Mutual

21 slapping ordered by Zenga had to be done by two cousins,

22 Momir Mrkajic and Goran Mrkajic. This same kind of

23 slapping upon Zenga's orders was carried out by Kuljanin

24 Branislav and somebody called Ristic, whose first name

25 I cannot recall, and there were other such instances.

Page 4775

1 Once Landzo Zenga ordered Dragan Gligorevic to hit

2 individual prisoners, which he refused to do, because he

3 said: "You can hit me, but I won't do that."

4 Q. Mr. Dordic, do you know now anything because of your

5 direct knowledge about the circumstances of the death of

6 any prisoner inside the camp?

7 A. I know quite a bit about it. For instance, regarding

8 the death of Miso Kuljanin I think that was the Muslim

9 holiday, Kurban Bajram, and they were looking for a

10 victim. Zenga came through the door and called out for

11 a volunteer. As Miso Kuljanin was known as the

12 volunteer, he got up and went out. After a few minutes

13 we heard a shot. Three prisoners --

14 Q. Yes. Go ahead, please.

15 A. A couple of minutes later three prisoners who were using

16 the toilet outside and they ran in and showed us with

17 their fingers --

18 Q. Excuse me. Wait a minute. Maybe it's better you

19 follow my question. So you said you heard a shot

20 coming from outside; is that correct?

21 A. Yes. Yes.

22 Q. After how long did you hear the shot from outside after

23 Milorad Kuljanin going outside?

24 A. It could have been two or three minutes later.

25 Q. Approximately at what time of the day did that happen?

Page 4776

1 Do you remember?

2 A. Somewhere in the morning, before noon. We didn't have

3 a watch, so we could tell the time by the weather.

4 Q. All right. Did you have any chance to see Mico

5 Kuljanin again after that?

6 A. No.

7 Q. As far as you know, was there any other prisoner from

8 Hangar 6 outside at the time you heard the shot?

9 A. Yes. There were three prisoners.

10 Q. Do you personally know these three people?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Can you say their names?

13 A. Momir Mrkajic, Janko Glogovaz and Zjelko Cecez, known as

14 the Spaniard, who was killed that same day, only in the

15 evening.

16 Q. These three people were prisoners as you, detained in

17 Hangar 6; is that correct?

18 A. Yes. Yes.

19 Q. Did these three prisoners come back into the hangar

20 after the shot you heard?

21 A. Yes. They ran in and they showed us with their hand as

22 if a trigger.

23 Q. Let me ask you, please, Mr. Dordic. Did they come back

24 into the hangar together?

25 A. All three of them together, yes.

Page 4777

1 Q. How long after the shot did they come back together into

2 the hangar?

3 A. A couple of seconds, maybe a couple of minutes.

4 Q. And what did these three people do right after coming

5 into the hangar again?

6 A. They showed us with their fingers that he had been

7 killed, that he had been killed.

8 Q. Was Janko Glogovaz, or Momir Mrkajic, or Zeljko Cecez

9 showing this to you or all three of them?

10 A. All three were showing it like this (indicating).

11 Q. Did any of them ever tell you more precisely what was

12 the fate of Milorad Kuljanin, I mean how and by whom he

13 was shot?

14 A. Yes, they did. Momir Mrkajic told me the story, who

15 was the best man of Miso Kuljanin.

16 Q. What did he tell you?

17 A. He said that he had been killed by Eso, known as

18 Makaron.

19 Q. All right. Then let's remain now on this very morning,

20 late morning, when Miso Kuljanin was shot. Did Janko

21 Glogovaz, Momir Mrkajic and Zeljko Cecez have any other

22 occasion to go out of the hangar after this incident the

23 same day?

24 A. After some time Eso Macic, known as Makaron, and Zenga

25 came through the door and they were looking for three

Page 4778

1 men. They went out. Then they came back shortly

2 afterwards.

3 Q. Approximately at what time of the day did that occur?

4 A. It's difficult to tell. Maybe about two hours after

5 this murder. How can I tell the time when I didn't

6 have a watch? I know it was during that day.

7 Q. That's quite fair, Mr. Dordic. Thank you. So you say

8 these three people remained outside for a very short

9 time. So how long did they stay outside approximately?

10 A. About ten minutes on the outside.

11 Q. Did any of them say right after entering again into the

12 hangar -- did any of them say what just happened to them

13 outside in those ten minutes?

14 A. I took a risk. I risked being beaten and I went up to

15 Momir Mrkajic, because his sister is my wife, and

16 I asked him: "What did they ask you?" He told me: "They

17 asked us whether we had seen anything." "And what did

18 you say?" "And me and Janko said we hadn't seen

19 anything. Zeljko said that he had seen Eso Macic

20 killing Miso."

21 Q. All right, Mr. Dordic. What happened after that? Did

22 any other incident take place that same day?

23 A. In the evening Zeljko Cecez -- somebody came to the

24 door. It was already dark and we could recognise Zenga

25 by his voice, because he has a specific voice. As soon

Page 4779

1 as we heard his voice, we would try and cover ourselves

2 up, knowing what was going to happen. Then they called

3 him out. He went out, and we could hear terrible blunt

4 blows.

5 Q. You mean they called out whom?

6 A. Zeljko Cecez. He went out and we heard these very hard

7 blunt blows and his moans. This playing with him

8 outside took about almost an hour. We couldn't really

9 tell, but roughly about that long. He was moaning and

10 crying, but they kept on hitting him. At one point the

11 door opened as it was dark. He was probably pushed

12 through the door. We heard him continuing to moan and

13 by his voice we knew that he was moving somehow. He

14 reached his position, the position allotted to him. He

15 started begging for water. He swore at us, asking us

16 to give him water. Not one of the prisoners dared to

17 give him anything, even if they had something to give.

18 After some time these painful moans ceased and in

19 the morning when it dawned I saw him. It was right in

20 front of me that Zeljko Cecez was lying on his

21 stomach. He was barefooted. He had nothing on his

22 legs. He was lying on his stomach. He had a

23 yellow -- the yellow colour of death. I saw that he

24 wasn't moving and I realised that he was dead.

25 We were all shivering with fear. We didn't dare

Page 4780

1 even look, because few of us had contact with dead

2 people. We are afraid of corpses. He lay there in

3 our midst for three or four hours, maybe even longer.

4 Nenad Cecez asked the guards that somebody should come

5 and carry him out and in the morning somewhere around

6 9 o'clock or 10 o'clock this was done. He was carried

7 out and that was the last time I saw him, when he was

8 carried out.

9 Q. So, Mr. Dordic, how long could you observe the body

10 remaining motionless in the hangar that morning?

11 A. For about four or five hours at least. I don't know

12 exactly. As again, I said no watch, but it was a long

13 time.

14 Q. Could you observe personally that during that time the

15 body didn't have any movement?

16 JUDGE JAN: This is what he has already said.

17 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

18 JUDGE JAN: That is what he has already said.

19 A. Yes. Yes.

20 MR. TURONE: Did anybody order to remove the body?

21 A. Yes. Hazim Delic came and ordered Nenad Cecez and some

22 others to carry him out, and they did.

23 Q. Was this the last time that you saw the body of this

24 person?

25 A. Yes.

Page 4781

1 Q. All right. Could you personally observe any other

2 incident which led to the death of a prisoner?

3 A. Yes. There were quite a few such cases. The next case

4 was with Scepo Gotovac. This Scepo Gotovac was an

5 elderly man, around 70 years old, maybe even older.

6 Q. Excuse me, Mr. Dordic. Can you say approximately when

7 did this incident happen?

8 A. I think some time in June, end of June. I think that's

9 where it was.

10 Q. All right. Can you go ahead?

11 A. Scepo Gotovac was right next to the door and during the

12 day Hazim Delic came in. He carried a piece of paper

13 in his hand. He told Scepo Gotovac to get up and he

14 did. Hazim started reading something to the effect

15 that Scepo Gotovac some time in November 1942 or 1943 --

16 I don't know exactly -- at that same spot right where

17 this hangar was, at that spot that he had killed two

18 Muslims and that he was going to finish at the same

19 spot.

20 He begged him and he swore that he didn't do that,

21 but this one did not believe it. So he started beating

22 him. Then he was taken out. That is Delic took him

23 outside. Outside blunt blows could be heard and that

24 went on for about half an hour, maybe even longer. He

25 kept moaning. We kept hearing these blunt blows. At

Page 4782

1 one point he -- the door opened and he was pushed

2 inside, inside the hangar. He lay down.

3 Q. Excuse me. Did you see who put him inside the hangar?

4 A. He entered on all fours. He lay there practically

5 immobile and moaning and then during the evening --

6 I know by the voice, because I heard it -- I heard that

7 Landzo came to the door. He opened the door and he

8 called Scepo out. He said: "Scepo, come out", and he

9 said: "I can't. Kill me here."

10 Then he ordered some prisoners to carry him out.

11 I think Novo Zelenovic and another one carried him out

12 because Novo Zelenovic was right there at the door.

13 Again we could hear terrible blows, his moans, and after

14 a while these moans stopped. We heard the door open

15 and these two -- Zenga called out these two prisoners to

16 carry him in. They did that.

17 He ordered -- at that time he ordered that nobody

18 could take off something that was on his forehead, but

19 we didn't know what it was. In the morning he lay

20 there motionless. He was all yellowish and black and

21 blue. He had a badge on. I think it was either an

22 SDS badge or something. I don't know. It was pinned

23 to his forehead or nailed to his forehead. I went out

24 to urinate and I saw him. I was about 1 metre away

25 from him. This body was left there for two or three

Page 4783

1 hours and then Nenad Cecez again called the guards to

2 have him removed, and then he was removed and that is

3 the last that I saw of him.

4 Q. Mr. Dordic, what was the position inside the hangar where

5 Gotovac used to sit?

6 A. Right next to the door. He was the first one going up

7 from the door to the right.

8 Q. You said you could see his body going the next morning

9 outside to urinate; is that correct?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Could you observe the body in this occasion with some

12 care? Can you describe it?

13 A. Black and blue and also yellowish, as a dead man, and he

14 lay motionless.

15 Q. Was this the time when you could see something on your

16 forehead (sic)?

17 A. Yes, there was a badge of some sort. I think it was an

18 SDS badge. That would be the Serbian Democratic Party

19 badge. It was like this.

20 Q. Besides the chance you had to see him from a very close

21 position going outside to urinate, did you have a chance

22 to observe the body from your position while you were

23 sitting in your position in the --

24 A. Yes. Yes, I could.

25 Q. Could you observe the body remaining motionless for a

Page 4784

1 significant time?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. How long could you observe the body remaining motionless

4 in the hangar?

5 A. Two or three hours.

6 Q. Can you say at what time was the body removed

7 approximately?

8 A. Somewhere around 8 o'clock at the latest.

9 Q. Did anybody order to remove the body?

10 A. Yes. Delic came and some guards and they ordered it to

11 be carried out after the request of Nenad Cecez, because

12 if you were to request something of the guards, from the

13 guards, that would all go through Nenad Cecez.

14 Q. This was the last time you saw the body of this person;

15 is that correct?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. All right. Thank you. Could you personally observe

18 any other incident which led to the death of a prisoner?

19 A. Just two or three days after the murder of Scepo Gotovac

20 we heard some screams outside, and we knew that somebody

21 came in, but didn't know who it was. Only in the

22 morning we saw, and I knew this Nedjo Milosevic

23 personally. He sat almost at the same spot where Scepo

24 Gotovac used to sit. I saw him all black and blue,

25 beaten up, and he lay there nearly motionless. He

Page 4785

1 spent the whole day there and in the evening hours Zenga

2 opened the door came to Nedjo and said: "Nedjo, come on

3 out." Nedjo said he couldn't. Then Zenga ordered two

4 prisoners to carry him out, which they did. Outside a

5 terrible beating started. We heard blows, his moans,

6 and after about 20 minutes or half an hour, it all

7 stopped. He fell silent and the door never opened. I

8 don't know what happened to him. He was probably

9 killed.

10 Q. Any other incident you could personally observe which

11 led to the death of a prisoner?

12 A. Simo Jovanovic.

13 Q. Can you approximately say when did this incident happen?

14 A. Sometime at the end of June or early July, around

15 them. Simo Jovanovic had been taken out in the evening

16 several times. Usually it was a neighbour of his, who

17 was from the same village that he was from. I think

18 his name was Adam Cosic. For the most part Zenga was

19 also with him. This Cosic would say: "Come on,

20 neighbour. I have something to tell you." Then he

21 would come out and then you could hear terrible blows

22 outside. He would be moaning and then after a while he

23 would be brought back in. This happened several times

24 over a period of about ten days.

25 Then on one occasion the door opened and Adem

Page 4786

1 Cosic walked in, came pretty close to Simo, and Zenga

2 stood at the door, and he said: "Simo, come on out."

3 Simo somehow got out. We could hear blunt blows, his

4 moans, and after a while the door opened again.

5 Apparently he was ordered to come back in and Simo

6 somehow came in, came to his place. It was already

7 dark by that time. We could not see how he was

8 walking. We heard -- we knew approximately where his

9 spot was. We could hear those painful grunts and moans

10 and he asked for help. After a while everything became

11 quiet and in the morning, when it dawned, we saw Simo

12 lying motionless. We realised that he was dead.

13 Q. Mr. Dordic, focusing on the last time Simo Jovanovic was

14 called out of the hangar on the last evening, can you

15 say approximately at what time he was called outside

16 that last occasion?

17 A. It was the early dusk. I don't know what time.

18 Around 9.00, maybe even earlier.

19 Q. When he, Simo Jovanovic, came back into the hangar after

20 this last occasion and reached his position inside the

21 hangar, can you say where was his position inside the

22 hangar with respect to your position?

23 A. Like this (indicating). I was here and he was around

24 here somewhere.

25 Q. You could tell us in terms of how many metres

Page 4787

1 approximately.

2 A. If the hangar was 25 metres long, he could have been

3 10-12 metres away from me, somewhere midway, maybe a bit

4 further away.

5 Q. So there was a time that night or in the morning when

6 you could observe clearly Mr. Jovanovic or his body with

7 some attention?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. When was that? In the morning?

10 A. In the morning, when it dawned, around 5 o'clock, maybe

11 even before.

12 Q. Could you describe the body as you could see it from

13 your position?

14 A. It was mostly yellowish and black and blue, the parts of

15 the body that could be seen.

16 Q. Did the body have any movement or was that motionless?

17 A. Motionless.

18 Q. Was that body removed later on?

19 A. Yes, after two or three hours, again on the request of

20 Nenad Cecez, they came and carried him away.

21 Q. So how long could you observe the body remaining

22 motionless in the hangar that morning?

23 A. Two or three hours.

24 Q. Did anybody order to remove the body?

25 A. Yes.

Page 4788

1 Q. Who was that?

2 A. Delic.

3 Q. Was this the last time you saw the body of Jovanovic?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. All right, Mr. Dordic. Any other incidents -- could

6 you personally observe any other incident which led to

7 the death of a prisoner?

8 A. Relating to the death, the death of Bosko Samoukovic.

9 I remember that very well. The date, it was 17th July

10 in the morning hours. After the incident between the

11 -- among the Muslim army, we had these collective

12 beatings and on that day Zenga came in and ordered us

13 all from Bradina to get up. We all got up. At one

14 point one of the prisoners -- this was Nedjo Gligorevic

15 said: "There are those who did not get up." He said:

16 "Who?" He pointed to Bosko Samoukovic.

17 Zenga ordered us all to sit down and him to get

18 up. He started towards him about 2 metres. Zenga

19 started beating him. He beat him with all kinds of

20 things. At one point he came to the door. He went to

21 the door and picked up the plank that was used to prop

22 the door up. It was long, about 2 metres, and it was

23 about 5, 6 cm. wide. It was something like 5 by 10,

24 about that. He beat him all over the body. At one

25 point he hit him in the back of the head. He fell

Page 4789

1 down.

2 He apparently saw that he had lost consciousness

3 and he ordered a prisoner who was a medical nurse to

4 help him. He tried to -- I guess to pull out the

5 tongue. He did not succeed. That's what he told us

6 later. He did not succeed. Then he called in some

7 prisoners to carry him to the infirmary and this would

8 be all I know.

9 Q. Excuse me. Mr. Dordic, how long did the beating of

10 Bosko Samoukovic last on this occasion?

11 A. You know, the way we would experience this, that it went

12 on for hours, but it could have been just fifteen

13 minutes tops, maybe even less.

14 Q. Did Zenga say anything while beating Mr. Samoukovic?

15 A. I don't remember.

16 Q. Was any relative of Mr. Samoukovic also in the hangar?

17 A. There were two sons of his, Milan and Nedeljko

18 Samoukovic. Nedeljko, I think, was just two or three

19 places away from him and the other one was just a little

20 bit further away. Delic walked in, stood in front of

21 Samoukovic. Nedeljko Samoukovic asked -- he said:

22 "Sir, can you please tell me what happened to my

23 father?" Delic said: "He died."

24 Q. All right, Mr. Dordic. Did you personally observe in

25 all or in part any other incident which led to the death

Page 4790

1 of a person, of a prisoner?

2 A. Some time in early August -- I think it was towards the

3 evening; it was still light -- the door opened, and at

4 the door -- in fact, Delic and Emir Kovacic, called

5 Skema, walked in. Emir asked for Keljo, that is Zeljko

6 Klimenta. He responded and Delic asked Emir: "What do

7 you want with him?" Delic answered -- Delic said: "You

8 don't need to give him cigarettes, because he's not

9 going to live to see the morning." Then he said

10 something else. He started towards Zeljko Klimenta and

11 he tossed him the pack of cigarettes. He came up to

12 halfway into the hangar. Then they left the hangar.

13 The following morning as soon as it dawned, around

14 5 o'clock, I had just woken up, a guard came in and

15 asked Keljo to come out. He said: "Keljo, come out.

16 Let's light up." Keljo walked out and with him Miodrag

17 Kujundzic, called Garo, and Nenad Cecez. We heard them

18 even laughing.

19 Q. Excuse me, Mr. Dordic. Do you personally know these two

20 other people, Garo Kujundzic and Nenad Cecez?

21 A. Yes. Nenad Cecez is a relative of mine and Garo

22 Kujundzic was a soccer player in a local soccer club in

23 Igman in Konjic, so I knew him personally.

24 Q. Do you know the reason why they also went outside the

25 hangar together with Klimenta?

Page 4791

1 A. I don't know, no.

2 Q. Anyway --

3 A. This Nenad Cecez could -- was free to walk out any time,

4 because he was some kind of a leader. He was appointed

5 to that position by Hazim Delic.

6 Q. So anyway Klimenta went outside with these two people.

7 What could you hear then after that?

8 A. We heard them laughing about something, and then at one

9 point a shot rang out. Immediately following that

10 shot, the door opened abruptly and Garo Kujundzic ran

11 inside holding his head in his hands and said: "They

12 just killed Keljo." We said: "Who?" He said:

13 "Padalovic."

14 Q. Did you ever have any chance to see Klimenta again after

15 that?

16 A. No.

17 Q. Approximately at what time of the day did that happen?

18 A. In the morning, around 5 o'clock.

19 Q. Did any of these two people, either Garo Kujundzic or

20 Nenad Cecez, ever tell you more precisely what was the

21 fate of Klimenta and how it happened that he was shot?

22 A. Garo on one occasion only said that this -- that he was

23 playing with a rifle, a semi-automatic rifle. He put

24 it against his temple, didn't know that it had not been

25 locked and then he just pulled the trigger.

Page 4792

1 Q. So is this all? Did you eyewitness any other death

2 besides what you already said?

3 A. No.

4 Q. So, Mr. Dordic, did you know Delic from before the war?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Can you explain how and what relationship, if any, you

7 had with him?

8 A. I knew him only by sight and I knew his name, because he

9 went to the same school with my brother. They were

10 about the same class. I know that he was a machinist

11 by training and he worked in a company -- lumber

12 company. I know that just before the war he opened up

13 a little shop. He used to come to Boro Golubovic's

14 cafe. He was one of the first ones to start wearing a

15 green beret in Konjic at the time. I don't know if

16 that is some kind of a military formation, the Green

17 Berets or the Patriotic League. I don't know which

18 one. I know that he's married. I know where his wife

19 is from. I know that he has a small son, Hazim. At

20 that time he was about four or five years old. On one

21 occasion he even brought him to the Celebici camp, and

22 he said something like this: "Little Hazim wants to see

23 the Cetnik Goja". This was Goja who used to work with

24 him in the same company.

25 Q. All right, Mr. Dordic. Did you know Mr. Landzo from

Page 4793

1 before the war?

2 A. Just by sight. You know, I was a waiter and waiters

3 get to know almost everyone in the city. I didn't know

4 his name or his nickname. I only found out in Celebici

5 that his name was Landzo.

6 Q. What role did you observe Delic having in the Celebici

7 camp?

8 A. As the guards who were the real guards, as they told us

9 -- they told us that he was the Deputy Commander of the

10 camp, Deputy Commander.

11 Q. So how frequently did you see Mr. Delic inside the camp?

12 A. Almost every day, at least three times, until his arrest

13 by the Muslims, which happened on 2nd December 1992.

14 Q. Okay.

15 A. Delic Hazim and Landzo Zenga were together detained with

16 us for about three or four months in Musala and the --

17 and it happened so that I would distribute -- give them

18 their food rations and I was more generous to them than

19 they were to me.

20 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: I think we can now break.

21 JUDGE JAN: How long will you take?

22 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Until 2.30.

23 JUDGE JAN: How long more will you take with him?

24 MR. TURONE: How long? There is about half an hour more,

25 but maybe less.

Page 4794

1 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: We will resume at 2.30.

2 (1.00 pm)

3 (Luncheon adjournment)

4

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9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

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22

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Page 4795

1 (2.30 pm)

2 (Witness re-enters court)

3 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Kindly remind him he is on his oath.

4 THE REGISTRAR: I wish to remind you that you are still

5 testifying under oath.

6 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Mr. Turone, you can continue with your

7 witness.

8 MR. TURONE: Thank you, your Honour. So, Mr. Dordic, do you

9 have any knowledge of who was the Commander of the

10 Celebici camp?

11 A. The Commander of the Celebici camp was Zdravko Mucic,

12 better known as Pavo.

13 Q. How do you know that?

14 A. Actually everybody respected him, and when he would

15 come, when there were any transfers to the Sports Hall,

16 he was the one who determined who would go and who would

17 not, and from certain guards.

18 Q. Did you ever see Mr. Mucic in the camp?

19 A. I saw him five or six times.

20 Q. Where did you happen to see him inside the camp?

21 A. In the hangar.

22 Q. And --

23 A. And once in Number 22, better known as the infirmary.

24 Q. Do you remember when you saw Mr. Mucic for the first

25 time, at least in which month?

Page 4796

1 A. I think it was in June. He came in. He just made a

2 couple of steps. He didn't stay long. There were

3 several people with him, but I know that among them was

4 Ivica Buric, the guard. He was carrying a camera and

5 they were filming something. I think it was Ivica

6 Buric who was carrying the camera, not Pavo.

7 Q. Can you say, when Mr. Mucic came into the hangar on other

8 occasions, what he came for?

9 A. The next time, I can't remember exactly whether it was

10 the end of July or the beginning of August, he entered

11 with Hazim Delic. They toured all of us. He stopped

12 in front of me. He asked me: "Did you use to work in

13 the hotel?" I said: "Yes." I suffer from psoriasis and

14 as the conditions were abnormal then and this skin

15 disease had spread all over my arms and face and he

16 asked me: "What's that?" I told him: "You see what it

17 is." Hazim said: "It is Vojvida's brother." Pavo said:

18 "What has that got to do with it? We know each other

19 from before", and he went on.

20 Q. Did Mr. Mucic wear a uniform?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Did that happen every time you saw him?

23 A. Yes. Yes.

24 Q. Did you have any other occasion to talk to Mr. Mucic or

25 him to talk to you?

Page 4797

1 A. Only on these occasions. A second time or the third

2 time -- the third time I saw him actually, it was on

3 21st August, when a group of prisoners from Number 9

4 were transferred to Number 6, and a group from Number 6

5 was going to go to the Sports Hall. With him at the

6 time was a prisoner, Zaro Mrkajic, who had just come

7 from Number 9. I assume they were friends. He had to

8 determine which prisoners were going to the Konjic

9 Sports Hall. They went round. They told individuals

10 to get up and sent them outside. Then my turn came.

11 He asked Zaro: "What are we going to do with him?" Zaro

12 said: "Let him go." He told me to go out.

13 Q. Mr. Dordic, did you know Mr. Mucic from before the war?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Can you explain how and what relationship you had with

16 him, if any?

17 A. I knew him close to fifteen years. Our relations were

18 such we weren't close but we had -- at least five or six

19 times we had drinks together. We had some common

20 friends, like Golemac Miroslav, who asked him to

21 transfer to the Sports Hall and release me. When I saw

22 Miroslav Golemac later on, he told me that the Muslims

23 would not allow this, nor Zejnil Delalic.

24 Q. Do you know who was Mr. Mucic's superior?

25 A. Probably Zejnil Delalic.

Page 4798

1 Q. How do you know that?

2 A. By chance I happen to have worked in the Konjic motel,

3 which is only 30 metres away from his house. There's

4 just the parking space between us, and as the crisis,

5 economic crisis, was considerable, I was working there

6 until 19th April 1992. I could see that the leaders of

7 Konjic were visiting him in his house and we were able

8 to follow this. Then I learned from certain friends

9 that he was the Commander of tactical group number 1.

10 I was some kind of a co-ordinator, because there was no

11 connection with Sarajevo.

12 MR. O'SULLIVAN: Objection, your Honour. The witness has

13 just said he learned from certain friends, from

14 second-hand sources, certain things. My submission is

15 that is inappropriate evidence.

16 MR. TURONE: May I ask who is exactly the person who was

17 talking about that to you, Mr. Dordic?

18 A. I would like him to be anonymous, as he was the

19 commander of a unit and a good friend of mine. If

20 necessary, I can do it in writing. I can submit the

21 name to the judges in writing. It is in the interest

22 of his safety that I do not wish to name him.

23 Q. I beg your pardon for a moment, your Honours. We might

24 even ask this question to the witness in private

25 session, if you allow me?

Page 4799

1 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: He is telling you what someone told

2 him.

3 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

4 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: He is still telling you what someone

5 has told him. It doesn't make much of a difference.

6 MR. TURONE: I'll be satisfied with that, your Honour.

7 Let me ask now the question to you, Mr. Dordic: did

8 you ever see Mr. Zejnil Delalic in the camp?

9 A. Once, somewhere in June, the middle of June, I think.

10 He came with a group. He didn't spend much time

11 there. He had an escort with him. I didn't hear what

12 they were saying, and that was all that I heard from

13 him.

14 Q. Where inside the camp did you see him?

15 A. In Hangar Number 6.

16 Q. Mr. Dordic, you said something already about Red Cross

17 visits. How many times did the Red Cross visit the

18 camp?

19 A. From August, every month. August, September, October,

20 November and December.

21 Q. What happened before or during or after these visits, if

22 anything?

23 A. After Red Cross visits the situation changed to some

24 extent, but not much. At the time I think it was they

25 allowed us to go out into the sunshine, but this meant

Page 4800

1 more suffering than sunning, because Hazim Delic would

2 take us out and in front of the hangar, we would sit

3 there, take our shirts off. We would spend half an

4 hour, an hour -- it depends. The guards would switch

5 on music, their own spiritual Muslim songs, and we had

6 to shout certain slogans. He would ask: "Who is the

7 greatest?", and we had to answer: "Hazim is the

8 greatest!" "Who is the greatest?", and if a well-known

9 Konjic masseur were there, Smajo Kuresan, we would have

10 to say "Smajo is the greatest!", and that sort of thing,

11 or we had to utter -- I think it was a fascist greeting,

12 "Sieg Heil!", or something like that.

13 Q. Mr. Dordic, when did you leave Celebici camp?

14 A. The first time only briefly from 21st August-31st

15 August. That means for ten days only.

16 Q. But after that?

17 A. And after that, after I returned, I left definitively on

18 9th December, when the Celebici camp was dismantled, and

19 I was transferred to the Musala Sports Hall in Konjic.

20 Q. When were you released from any kind of detention?

21 A. Actually I was exchanged on the Bridge that was then

22 known as the Bridge of Serbian Veterans at Gerbaviza on

23 6th October 1994, after spending 860 days in prison.

24 Q. Thank you, Mr. Dordic.

25 So, your Honour, my examination-in-chief is

Page 4801

1 finished. Thank you.

2 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: How will you take your

3 cross-examinations?

4 MR. O'SULLIVAN: Yes. Before I do that, your Honour, just

5 near the end of this examination-in-chief I objected to

6 the witness giving a second-hand account of what he

7 believed Mr. Delalic's role was, and you upheld that

8 objection. I would ask that the record from page 75,

9 line 13 to page 76, line 20, be struck where he gives an

10 account.

11 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: The objection is ruled upholding it.

12 Carry on with your arrangement for cross-examination.

13 MR. O'SULLIVAN: Very well. The order of cross-examination

14 is the following: first, counsel for Mr. Delic; second,

15 counsel for Mr. Landzo; third, counsel for Mr. Mucic; and,

16 fourth, counsel for Mr. Delalic. Thank you.

17 Cross-examination by MR. MORAN.

18 MR. MORAN: Your Honour, if I could have a few seconds while

19 I get situated, so I can ...

20 May it please the court.

21 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Yes, you can carry on.

22 MR. MORAN: Good afternoon, sir.

23 A. Good afternoon.

24 Q. My name is Tom Moran and I'm Hazim Delic's lawyer. I'm

25 going to ask you some questions and I'm going to ask you

Page 4802

1 if you could listen to the questions and, if you don't

2 understand one of the questions, if you just stop me and

3 I'll clear it up for you, so that we won't have any

4 misunderstandings between ourselves. Can you do that

5 for me?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Another thing I'm going to ask you is if you would

8 listen to the question and just answer the question

9 that's asked you. A good number of them will probably

10 just require a "yes" or "no" answer. Can you do that

11 for me? Can we agree to do that?

12 A. Okay.

13 Q. One other thing, sir. There's two young ladies in the

14 courtroom. You can see them. One of them is over

15 there (indicating) and one of them is sitting almost

16 directly in front of Judge Jan. They are what are

17 called court reporters. The rules require that they

18 write down everything that we say. They can't write

19 down a nod. You were kind of nodding a little bit.

20 So we have to answer out. Will you do that, so that

21 the court reporters can get it down?

22 A. Yes, I understand that.

23 Q. Okay. Thank you very much, sir.

24 A. Thank you too.

25 Q. Let me just start off with a couple of things about your

Page 4803

1 time when you were in Bradina; okay? When you were part

2 of the defence of Bradina describe for the judges what

3 your uniform looked like.

4 A. Civilian clothes.

5 Q. Well, did you have some kind of armband or something to

6 identify you as a member of an armed unit?

7 A. I was saying civilian clothes. I think I was clear.

8 Q. Okay. So you didn't have any kind of insignia or an

9 armband or anything like that or a badge?

10 A. No. No.

11 Q. That's fair enough. The weapon you had, where did you

12 get that weapon?

13 A. Through the black channel, for money. That's how these

14 things worked.

15 Q. That's how everybody got them? You just kind of bought

16 these automatic weapons?

17 A. Some had hunting rifles with a licence. Others went

18 and purchased guns.

19 Q. I'm going to ask the usher to pass you a series of

20 photographs and I'm going to ask you to go through those

21 photographs and see if you can find a weapon that looked

22 like the one that you had. Some of them probably

23 you've never even seen anything like them before, and

24 it's possible that the weapon you had isn't in there,

25 but go through and just see that you can get the one

Page 4804

1 that is the closest to what you had. Take your time on

2 this. (Handed).

3 A. I don't know what this is. I've never seen it. You

4 see, I was a cook in the army, so many weapons I never

5 saw.

6 Q. Well, I was a lawyer --

7 A. This is a machine-gun, a submachine-gun, a new one.

8 Q. Sure. Is that like the one you had?

9 A. No. No.

10 Q. Why don't you just go through and just flip through them

11 until you see if you can find one that's similar to the

12 one you had?

13 A. This I also don't know, what type this is.

14 Q. Like I say, I'm sure that there's several weapons in

15 there that you've probably never even seen. Some are

16 old; some are new.

17 A. This is an automatic rifle. I know that, with a wooden

18 butt. This is an automatic rifle with a collapsible

19 butt that I had.

20 Q. Okay. The one that you had, could you leave that one

21 set aside? On the back of that picture there will be a

22 number written. It will be "D" something. Do you see

23 it up on that --

24 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Is that the type you had? Ask him.

25 MR. MORAN: Do you see the number written on that tag

Page 4805

1 there? If we could have the usher put that on --

2 A. "D15", is that what you mean? It says "D15" here. Is

3 that what you mean?

4 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: This is a photograph.

5 MR. MORAN: Yes, your Honour. I am trying to make sure it

6 can be identified on the record, which one it is.

7 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: When he identifies the photograph,

8 then we look at the number attached to it.

9 MR. MORAN: Yes, your Honour. He has identified that one

10 as the one he had.

11 A. I'm not saying that this was the one I had but it was

12 something like this.

13 MR. MORAN: I'm sure it's not the very same one that you

14 had. I'm sure that --

15 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: That is what I was commenting. He

16 didn't say it was the one. It looked like the one.

17 MR. MORAN: That's true, your Honour. It's just the type

18 of weapon that we're trying to show. If we can just

19 show that to the court and just bring it up on the

20 screen so that the court can see what it is, I believe

21 this is the weapon Judge Odio Benito had the question

22 about the last time, on the rifle grenade. I believe

23 it's admitted. If it's not, I would move the admission

24 of this photograph.

25 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Has he agreed this is the one -- the

Page 4806

1 type he had?

2 MR. MORAN: Yes, your Honour. No-one is saying that the

3 rifle grenade that's at the bottom of the picture, and

4 I want that to be real clear -- we're not saying he had

5 that. He's saying that the rifle -- if I am correct,

6 sir, the rifle is similar to the one you had?

7 A. No. No. I didn't have the rifle grenade. I just had

8 the gun. I didn't have the rifle grenade.

9 Q. That's correct. I just want to make sure that we're

10 all clear on that. Your Honour, if -- like I say, if

11 that's not in evidence, I move its admission.

12 Could you also continue looking through those

13 photographs and see if there are any other types of

14 weapons in those photographs that other people in

15 Bradina had and just kind of pull those aside?

16 A. This one I don't recognise. I don't know which type

17 this is either. This one I know. It is an automatic

18 rifle. Semi-automatic. This one I don't know. I

19 don't know what this is. I don't know this.

20 Q. By the way, were there other people that had the same

21 kind of weapon you had? Did other people in Bradina

22 have weapons similar to yours?

23 A. Yes, there were.

24 Q. The other thing, there were three photos you set aside

25 up there. Other people in Bradina had weapons that

Page 4807

1 were similar to those, looked like those?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Your Honour, again if we could show those pictures on

4 the ELMO, and I would move the admission of those

5 photos, those three. Sir, if you just hand those three

6 to the usher right next to you, he'll keep them

7 separated out and we can keep track of the numbers that

8 way.

9 So some people -- how many weapons like that one

10 were there in Bradina, the one that's on the screen

11 right now? Were there a lot of them or just a few of

12 them, or just one of them?

13 A. I know there was one of this kind. I didn't see any

14 more.

15 Q. Do you know who had that one?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Who was it?

18 A. Zoran Dordic.

19 Q. Zoran Dordic?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Let us look at the next one. Were there many like that

22 one in Bradina?

23 A. These were the most numerous. Most of them were like

24 this.

25 Q. About how many people had those?

Page 4808

1 A. I don't know. I really do not know the number.

2 Q. Sure. That's fair. I'm sure that you weren't

3 counting them. Let's look at that last one, the third

4 one there. How many like that were there?

5 A. There were rifles, but not the rifle grenades. There

6 may have been. Not many, not many in any case.

7 Q. All right. Your Honour, if we could have the usher

8 read the numbers on the back of those three photographs

9 -- or I guess it is a total of four now, including the

10 one the witness said was his -- so we can get that in

11 the record and we can find them later.

12 THE USHER: D15/1K.

13 MR. MORAN: D15/1K.

14 THE USHER: D15/1L.

15 MR. MORAN: D15/1L.

16 THE USHER: D15/1H.

17 MR. MORAN: D15/1H.

18 THE USHER: D15/1H.

19 MR. MORAN: H? There is two 1Hs then, are there? Also,

20 your Honour, I would like the record to reflect that the

21 last one that he read the number on was the one that he

22 said was the same or similar to his weapon.

23 A. Not the last one. The first one, what was first shown

24 on the ELMO.

25 Q. Yes, sir, but when the usher read them, he read them in

Page 4809

1 reverse order, the order they were on the ELMO?

2 A. Okay. Okay. I understand.

3 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: In case of doubt, let him repeat it.

4 MR. MORAN: Let's repeat that. That one the legal officer

5 has in his hand, is that the one that is the same or

6 similar to the one you had?

7 A. Yes. Yes.

8 MR. MORAN: The number on that exhibit is.

9 THE REGISTRAR: It is D15/1H.

10 MR. MORAN: Yes, your Honour. Your Honour, I would move

11 admission of all four of those in case they aren't

12 admitted. I think I have already done that.

13 When you left Bradina after the battle, you left

14 your weapon in Bradina; right?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. And when you were questioned at the camp and led those

17 officers out, those police officers, the MUP, out to

18 recover that weapon, they had a list with serial numbers

19 on it, so they could check they were getting the one

20 that was yours; right?

21 A. No. They did not have a list. They asked me: "Can you

22 remember the serial number of your rifle?" I noticed

23 that there was a serial number there and I said "yes",

24 and I told them the number and they took it.

25 Q. Yes, sir. As I recall, and stop me if I am wrong on

Page 4810

1 this, and I'm flipping through my notes to look for

2 this, as I recall your testimony on direct, there was

3 something about -- you testified that they checked to

4 make sure it was your weapon?

5 A. Yes. They checked. When I said the number -- when

6 I told them the number, they compared it to the number

7 there and that's how it was compared. I thought that

8 I was clear on that.

9 Q. No, you weren't. Thank you for clearing that up for

10 me, sir. By the way, how many rounds of ammunition did

11 you have for that weapon?

12 A. Five clips. That means 150 total. Five times 30,

13 150.

14 Q. So there were 30-round magazines to go in them?

15 A. Correct.

16 Q. Let me go off to a different area; okay? A different

17 area which you testified about on direct. After you

18 were arrested, you were taken to -- in a lorry, driven

19 for about an hour and you were beaten during the ride in

20 the lorry. Do you recall testifying to that?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. And, as I recall, you said that your head and your nose

23 were fractured; is that right?

24 A. No, not nose. My ear was cut by a knife and I was all

25 black and blue, bruised. That's how I said.

Page 4811

1 Q. Okay. Sir, first, while I am looking through my notes,

2 I just want to thank you for being as cooperative and

3 answering these questions as directly as you have

4 been. I am going to jump to again another area.

5 I want to talk to you a little bit about that.

6 You testified on direct examination, according to

7 my notes, that at some point Mr. Landzo beat you with a

8 baseball bat. Do you recall that testimony?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. And do you recall the testimony about one of your other

11 prisoners counted the hits and it was 200-250?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. And was that -- is that number 200-250 a pretty good

14 guess on numbers, on the number of hits that were --

15 A. Yes, approximately, it is.

16 Q. And he was hitting you real hard, wasn't he?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. And it was on your back and your legs?

19 A. The knees up to under my arms.

20 Q. On the back or on the front?

21 A. Not up here (indicating) like this, here and here and up

22 to here (indicating).

23 Q. Okay. So it wasn't on your back; it was on your sides?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Did you have any broken bones?

Page 4812

1 A. When I was exchanged, I was x-rayed and at that time it

2 was determined that I had had one rib fractured, but it

3 was not determined at that time.

4 Q. So there was -- and there was another occasion where you

5 were hit with a baseball bat a couple of times. Do you

6 recall testifying about that? That was where --

7 A. A couple of times. Well, that was done by somebody

8 else, not by Landzo.

9 Q. I want you to understand I am just talking about being

10 hit by a baseball bat. You were hit -- where were

11 those hits? Where were those blows?

12 A. My behind.

13 Q. On the --

14 A. (Indicating). Down there.

15 Q. On what I will gently call the fleshy part?

16 A. Right.

17 Q. Mr. O'Sullivan, could you hand me that object that's next

18 to my chair? Was the object that was used -- did it

19 look like this?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Your Honour, I would ask that this be marked and

22 admitted into evidence. For the record --

23 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: This looks like this.

24 MR. MORAN: Your Honour, I can promise you that this has

25 never been to Yugoslavia. For the record, it's a

Page 4813

1 Louisville Slugger baseball bat.

2 MR. TURONE: Your Honour, I object for the relevance,

3 because all of us know what a baseball bat is, but

4 anyway --

5 JUDGE JAN: It was not shown to you under Rule 67C. No

6 objection to that?

7 MR. MORAN: I apologise for not doing that. The thought

8 slipped my mind until this very moment. I apologise

9 for not having delivered a photograph of that or

10 allowing them to inspect it.

11 MR. MORAN: That baseball bat, which is Delic exhibit what?

12 What is the Exhibit Number on that.

13 THE REGISTRAR: It is D6/3.

14 MR. MORAN: That is similar to the baseball bat that was

15 used on you in Celebici?

16 A. You know, I had never seen this type of baseball bat

17 before and people said that this was a baseball bat.

18 Q. Okay. Now when you say you have never seen this type

19 of baseball bat before, you said a couple of minutes ago

20 that that exhibit looked like what you were hit with?

21 A. No. Never before -- never before I had -- I was beaten

22 with it had I seen it before. At that time I did not

23 know what it was. Later we learned. Somebody told me

24 that it was a baseball bat.

25 Q. Well, to be real frank, baseball is not a big sport in

Page 4814

1 Yugoslavia, is it? That's not the national pastime of

2 Yugoslavia?

3 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Actually can you describe the one used

4 in hitting you? Can you describe that?

5 A. It was something similar to this. The colour was sort

6 of orangey.

7 MR. MORAN: But it looked like that exhibit, same or

8 similar?

9 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Counsel is saying it looks like --

10 A. Yes.

11 MR. MORAN: We had a little confusion there. Okay. You

12 testified about another incident. We are getting close

13 to the end, so I'll -- where Mr. Delic came into the

14 hangar and there was an accidental discharge of a

15 firearm. Do you remember that?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. By the way, you will agree with me that that was an

18 accidental discharge?

19 A. I don't know if it was accidental or if it was

20 intentional.

21 Q. He shot into the ceiling?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. And some people were hit with fragments of that bullet?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. And, as I recall, your testimony was that Mr. Delic

Page 4815

1 immediately arranged for them to have medical care; was

2 that right?

3 A. Yes, and I said that the three -- that he personally

4 took those three to the infirmary, where the doctors

5 were.

6 Q. Yes, sir. A couple of other things that maybe you can

7 help me with and maybe you can't. At some point,

8 probably very early in the time that you were at

9 Celebici, do you recall an incident where there were

10 some blankets and there weren't enough blankets to go

11 around and what there was were divided among the people

12 there; do you recall that incident?

13 A. That was after about a month of our -- after we got to

14 Celebici some people started getting blankets. Some

15 had them and others slept on bare concrete. It turned

16 out that Hazim felt sorry and he split blankets so that

17 everybody would have half a blanket. Those were thin

18 blankets, but it didn't happen until later, and then

19 people got those half blankets.

20 Q. One other quick subject, and I think that I'll be

21 done. You testified that you'd been a cook when you

22 did your national service?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. And so you were probably around military installations

25 that were designed to have a whole lot of people living

Page 4816

1 there, were you not?

2 A. No. On the contrary. I served on a yacht and only

3 about 20 soldiers were serving it, and so I was in the

4 navy.

5 Q. It sounds like your military service was very similar to

6 my father's, and on that note I will thank you very much

7 and I will pass the witness, your Honour.

8 JUDGE JAN: He had an enjoyable time in the navy?

9 MR. MORAN: Your Honour, my father was in the army but

10 I think the most strenuous thing he did during World War

11 II was carry a clipboard and cards for poker games.

12 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Thank you very much.

13 Cross-examination by MR. ACKERMAN.

14 MR. ACKERMAN: May I proceed?

15 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Yes, Mr. Ackerman, you can.

16 MR. ACKERMAN: First I would like to notify the Registrar

17 that I'm going to be needing a couple of exhibits. The

18 first will be the photographs that I mentioned yesterday

19 that were made from the Belgrade TV videotape, and the

20 second will be the first exhibit that the prosecution

21 admitted with this witness, and that's the chart showing

22 where he was sitting in Hangar 6; okay?

23 Good afternoon, Mr. Dordic. How are you?

24 A. Good afternoon. Thank you. Well.

25 Q. I'm John Ackerman. I represent Mr. Landzo in this case

Page 4817

1 and I have probably not very many questions that I want

2 to ask you. I would simply ask, as Mr. Moran did, that

3 you listen very carefully to the question and try to

4 answer the question that I ask you and in that way we

5 can get through this much more quickly; okay?

6 A. Yes. Very well.

7 Q. Prior to coming here to testify today you have had an

8 opportunity to discuss the things that happened to you

9 after 12th May 1992, your experiences in Bradina, your

10 experiences escaping from Bradina, and your experiences

11 at Celebici camp and thereafter, haven't you?

12 A. Very seldom. I don't like to talk about that, because

13 it reminds me of some ugly things. I was requested to

14 do this. In fact, I don't know how I was selected to

15 come here at all.

16 Q. I missed the first half of the translation because

17 somehow my earphones got on the wrong channel. If you

18 could -- could you repeat your answer, please, so that I

19 can hear what you say. Oh, here it is, right here.

20 Well, have you ever -- what I really want to know

21 is: have you ever talked with anyone else about these

22 events prior to sitting in this courtroom and telling

23 the judges about them ever, anywhere?

24 A. Three times.

25 Q. And could you tell me when and where those three times

Page 4818

1 were?

2 A. In 1995 with somebody from the Committee for War Crimes

3 from Belgrade. This was in Hadici. I don't know how

4 they came for me to testify. They asked me to do this,

5 and indeed when they convinced me that nothing would be

6 divulged and nothing would go to the public then

7 I agreed to do it.

8 The second time I was informed in February of 1996

9 that there was an interest on the part of the

10 investigators of the Hague Tribunal for some statements,

11 and I agreed to that. The third time was in 1996 in

12 November in Belgrade, also with the investigators of the

13 Hague Tribunal.

14 Q. Then I assume, since you have been here, you have

15 discussed your testimony with representatives of the

16 Office of the Prosecutor?

17 A. Yes. That I would consider normal.

18 Q. So would I. The 1995 interview, was that testimony in

19 the sense that you took an oath and the testimony was

20 recorded in some way?

21 A. No. It was just typed up.

22 Q. And was that a statement that you were given an

23 opportunity to read and sign?

24 A. There was no need to re-read it. I heard everything

25 that was being said and that was being typed and I just

Page 4819

1 signed it.

2 Q. Were you being asked questions, or did you just make a

3 statement that was typed?

4 A. I gave a statement. They were not asking questions.

5 Q. Do you have a copy of that?

6 A. No.

7 Q. When was the last time you saw that statement?

8 A. I never did after that.

9 Q. After that day. When in 1995 was that; do you

10 remember?

11 A. The second half. It was September or October. I

12 don't know exactly when.

13 Q. Can you give us a better description of this

14 organisation that took that statement from you? I think

15 you called it a committee for war crimes. Can you give

16 me a better description of who that was? Do you know

17 any names or anything of that nature?

18 A. He introduced himself to me as a representative of the

19 Committee for War Crimes, something like that, nothing

20 else.

21 Q. Do you remember a name?

22 A. No.

23 Q. Okay. I'm going to ask the usher to show you some

24 photographs that are in evidence in this case. There

25 are, I think, four of them or three. That's all.

Page 4820

1 Please put them on the overhead ELMO.

2 I want you to look at each one of these

3 photographs and simply tell us if you have ever met with

4 or seen the person depicted in the photograph. You'll

5 see that they are on the monitor as soon as we get

6 things working.

7 A. I don't know. Maybe on television.

8 Q. But you don't --

9 A. Personally no. Maybe by accident on television or

10 something.

11 Q. Okay. The second one please ?

12 A. Yes. I know Dusica Bojic. She's the secretary of the

13 Association of Detainees of 1991.

14 Q. How many times have you met with her?

15 A. Two or three times.

16 Q. Have you ever told her about your experiences in

17 Celebici and before and after?

18 A. No.

19 Q. Are you a member of the Association of Detainees?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Is it true that to become a member of that association

22 you must give them a statement about your experiences?

23 A. I don't know about that. I gave no statement and I am

24 a member. I have the membership of that organisation.

25 Q. Do you know whether or not the statement you made in

Page 4821

1 1995 in Belgrade was for this group?

2 A. I don't know. I don't know. I doubt it.

3 Q. Where was it in Belgrade that that statement was made to

4 this Committee for War Crimes, or whatever it was

5 called? Where was that?

6 A. Not in Belgrade. I said in Hadici, not in Belgrade.

7 Q. Oh, Hadici?

8 A. I don't know if I was clear. Yes.

9 Q. I probably misunderstood you. That's probably my

10 fault. Where was that in Hadici? What kind of a

11 facility?

12 A. That's a small town. Hadici is a small town. That is

13 in the municipality of what is today called Serbian

14 Sarajevo. I gave the statement in the police station.

15 Q. Okay. How did you happen to go there? Who asked you

16 to go there?

17 A. A policeman came to get me, a member of the MUP. I

18 didn't know him.

19 Q. You have -- I think you have already told us that you

20 have no idea how they knew even that you might be able

21 to give such a statement; is that a fair statement by

22 me?

23 A. I never approached anybody with respect to that, so

24 I had no idea.

25 Q. Okay. The photograph that you were just looking at,

Page 4822

1 this woman that you say you have met on three occasions,

2 when was the last time you talked to her?

3 A. Maybe about ten days ago. I asked for some assistance

4 concerning clothing.

5 Q. Okay. I want to show you now the third photograph and

6 see if you recognise that person.

7 A. Yes. I know him.

8 Q. Just for the record, who is that?

9 A. Dr. Mirodrag Berliza. He is a compatriot from Konjic.

10 Q. When is the last time you talked with him?

11 A. Never.

12 Q. You have never talked with him?

13 A. No, never, never.

14 Q. You just recognise him. You know who he is; right?

15 A. I know him personally from -- as a compatriot.

16 Q. I'm confused. You know him personally as a compatriot,

17 but you have never talked to him?

18 A. No, I haven't.

19 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: I thought you were meaning talking to

20 him about these matters.

21 MR. ACKERMAN: About anything.

22 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Merely meeting him and talking to

23 him?

24 MR. ACKERMAN: Have you ever talked to him about anything?

25 A. No. No.

Page 4823

1 Q. Do you know a person by the name of Pjetar Fiodorov?

2 A. I think he's the President of the Association of

3 Detainees.

4 Q. Do you know him?

5 A. I only saw him once.

6 Q. Have you ever talked with him?

7 A. Just something personal.

8 Q. When was the last time you remember talking to him?

9 A. I asked for some money; right.

10 Q. How long ago?

11 A. In February or March of this year.

12 Q. All right. How many times have you been to the offices

13 of the Association of Detainees?

14 A. As I said, two or three times, when I went to see

15 Dusitsa Bojic.

16 Q. All right. I want to change direction now. I want to

17 talk about the battle of Bradina. I want to go back to

18 late 1991, early 1992. In your direct examination you

19 talked about that things started happening in 1991 and

20 then on into 1992. Among other things, in late 1991

21 and early 1992 you started hearing about military

22 conflicts that were going on across Bosnia-Herzegovina,

23 did you not?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. There were conflicts going on in other villages outside

Page 4824

1 of the Konjic opstina?

2 A. The closest was Mostar already in 1991.

3 Q. You got that from conversation with other people, from

4 watching television, from newspapers; it was widely

5 known what was going on around --

6 A. On television. On television.

7 Q. Of course, you discussed these events with your friends

8 and neighbours?

9 A. That's only normal, isn't it?

10 Q. Please understand I'm not accusing you of anything.

11 I'm just trying to find out what you knew at that point

12 in time. Do you understand that?

13 A. I was a waiter. That's what I was doing.

14 Q. Right. You knew at that time in early 1992 that there

15 were various Muslim villages across Bosnia-Herzegovina

16 that were being attacked by JNA and Serbian forces, and

17 perhaps maybe some Serbian villages that were being

18 attacked by Croat and Muslim forces. You knew it was

19 happening both ways during that period of time, didn't

20 you?

21 A. I doubt that the Yugoslav Army was attacking. It was

22 like a shield. It was guaranteeing peace to both sides

23 until it withdrew, until the Yugoslav Army withdrew,

24 because Bosnia was then part of Yugoslavia.

25 Q. When, to your knowledge, did the Yugoslav Army leave the

Page 4825

1 area and withdraw from Bosnia?

2 A. I learned of that when I got to the camp, that they had

3 withdrawn, because ever since April there was no

4 electricity. We were cut off in Bradina. We were cut

5 off from the rest of the world. So we didn't know what

6 was happening.

7 Q. So by the time you got to the camp, around the end of

8 May, May 30th, of 1992, you learned that the JNA had

9 already withdrawn from Bosnia?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Now when you started hearing about these things on

12 television and becoming aware of what was happening in

13 Mostar and so forth, that was when everyone started

14 dragging out their hunting rifles and trying to buy

15 automatic weapons on the black market; correct?

16 A. Yes. It was normal. The Muslims were getting arms

17 through the reserve force of MUP and so the rest of us

18 had to get arms too.

19 Q. Because you expected either that you would be attacked

20 or that you would be asked to conduct an attack, one or

21 the other?

22 A. We just wanted to defend ourselves, to defend our homes.

23 Q. It was well-known, was it not -- and, as you told me a

24 moment ago it is normal for everybody to talk about what

25 is happening -- it was well-known in Bradina and the

Page 4826

1 Bradina area that things were happening outside that

2 area, and people in the Bradina area were acquiring

3 weapons and getting out their old hunting rifles and

4 things of that nature. That wasn't any kind of a

5 secret, was it?

6 A. We knew.

7 Q. "We" meaning the residents of Bradina?

8 A. Yes, the residents of Bradina.

9 Q. Right. I think you've told us that on -- down towards

10 the end of May, 26th, 27th, when forces started

11 attacking the village of Bradina there came a time, did

12 there not, when it became clear to you that you were not

13 strong enough -- you and the other people in Bradina --

14 not strong enough to repel the forces invading, and so

15 you decided to leave the area; correct?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. And I take it -- you've already told us that you left

18 your weapons behind. Was that true of everyone who

19 left that area with you, the -- I think it was 12 people

20 that you went with -- did everyone leave their weapons

21 behind?

22 A. Yes. Yes.

23 Q. I take it that the weapons were left behind because of

24 your fear that it would be much more dangerous to your

25 lives if you were caught trying to escape with weapons

Page 4827

1 rather than without them?

2 A. Yes. That's what the majority of us thought.

3 Q. Right. What your goal was, what you really wanted to

4 do, was get out of that area and get to what you knew to

5 be Serb-held territory?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Where you knew there would be Serb armed forces and some

8 protection for you?

9 A. We assumed that it would be Kalinovik or Hadici.

10 Q. You knew that those areas were Serb-controlled areas?

11 A. We didn't really know whether they were in control of

12 the whole area, for we were under blockade for almost a

13 month. We were cut off. Since we knew that Kalinovik

14 is almost 100 per cent inhabited by Serbs, we expected

15 that the Serbs controlled Kalinovik or one of these

16 other small places.

17 Q. So at least it was a safe bet in your mind that that is

18 what you would encounter, if you could make it that far?

19 A. Yes, of course. That's what we counted on. We

20 counted on it being okay there.

21 Q. One of the persons that was part of your group was a

22 person named Dragan Kuljanin; correct?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Dragan Kuljanin was with you at least from the time that

25 you have talked about that you spent a night next to a

Page 4828

1 creek near Bradina until the time that you arrived at

2 Celebici; correct?

3 A. He joined us during the day, when we set off. He

4 didn't spend the night with us, but he joined us in the

5 morning.

6 Q. Did you see him hide his weapon or not?

7 A. Yes. Yes, I saw -- no, I didn't see him, but he came

8 without any weapon.

9 Q. Okay. Did he tell you that he'd hidden his weapon

10 somewhere?

11 A. He didn't, but the very fact that he didn't have any

12 weapon meant that he must have left it, if he had any.

13 Q. You went to -- from there you went, among other places,

14 to a place that I think is called Prehulja. Does that

15 ring any bells with you?

16 A. I beg your pardon? Prehulja? I don't know.

17 Q. Do you recall a place where there was an anti-aircraft

18 machine gun during your trip that day?

19 A. No.

20 Q. I want to go now to the time you were in the valley

21 where you were arrested. After you were taken into

22 custody, you were forced to walk for some distance

23 before there was transportation made available; correct?

24 A. I don't quite understand your question. I don't quite

25 understand. It isn't clear to me.

Page 4829

1 Q. I probably didn't give you have enough background. You

2 told us yesterday that during your attempt to escape you

3 found yourselves in a valley and you were fired on and

4 asked to surrender and you, in fact, surrendered and you

5 were taken into custody by some soldiers, and that they

6 forced you to walk some distance; correct?

7 A. Yes. Yes. That's what I said. First, they beat us

8 and then we went for about 1 km, until they had us climb

9 some vehicles.

10 Q. Okay. Now you were beaten at that point for how long a

11 period of time before you began walking?

12 A. It seemed to me like an eternity. Half an hour,

13 something like that, maybe longer, and along the way as

14 we walked.

15 Q. I think you told us you were beaten with rifle butts and

16 things of that nature during that period?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Then there came a time after you had walked 1 km or so

19 that some vehicles appeared; correct?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. And one of those vehicles was a van, a Golf van?

22 A. There were some passenger cars but there was a small Tam

23 -- a small lorry, Tam.

24 Q. Oh, a Tam.

25 A. A small lorry, a small Tam. There are various sizes.

Page 4830

1 Q. Was there a Mercedes?

2 A. I didn't pay any attention. I don't know.

3 Q. You don't recall seeing a Mercedes there?

4 A. No.

5 Q. After you got into this Tam, you were driven from there

6 to Mount Igman?

7 A. First Mount Bjelasnica in front of the Famos Hotel for a

8 brief stop and then from there to Mr.aziste.

9 Q. Let us talk about the Famos Hotel. When you stopped at

10 the Famos Hotel -- well, prior to getting there in the

11 truck, you were all forced to look back and there were

12 soldiers behind you beating you; correct?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. That's when you got hit quite hard on the head, and

15 that's when your ear got cut?

16 A. No. My ear was cut with a knife.

17 Q. Was that during that ride?

18 A. With a bayonet, only luckily it wasn't very sharp.

19 Q. Was that during that ride in the truck?

20 A. No. When we got to Mr.aziste.

21 Q. During the ride in the truck, was your nose broken at

22 that point?

23 A. I was all swollen and my nose wasn't broken. I was

24 just all black and blue, beaten up all over the body and

25 on my face.

Page 4831

1 Q. That's while you were riding in the truck?

2 A. On the truck they were hitting us with butts from

3 behind. I was lucky. I was in front, so the others

4 got more than I did.

5 Q. All right. When you got to Hotel Famos, you were taken

6 out of the truck and put onto a concrete ramp in front

7 of the Hotel Famos and beaten for an extended period of

8 time, were you not?

9 A. Yes. Yes. Yes. They made us lie down on the

10 concrete. We had to spread out our arms. They didn't

11 beat me very much. They trod on my fingers but it

12 wasn't so terrible. Some got really beaten up, and

13 that's where they took down our personal data. We had

14 to tell them our names.

15 Q. Then it was after that that you were loaded back in the

16 truck and taken to Mount Igman?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. At Mount Igman you were put into a room in a hotel or

19 motel there and mistreated by someone you have described

20 as a fat man, who jumped around on your feet and your

21 fingers, and things of that nature; correct?

22 A. I didn't say that. He beat us on our heads when we

23 were doing Muslim prayers. We had to repeat the Muslim

24 prayers after him.

25 Q. What was it he was beating you with on your heads?

Page 4832

1 A. With his legs. He was kicking us mostly. Kicking us.

2 Q. Do you know who that was? Do you know his name?

3 A. No.

4 Q. It was the next day, was it not, that you then were

5 interrogated?

6 A. We were interrogated that same evening.

7 Q. Were you also interrogated the next day or just that

8 evening?

9 A. I wasn't at least. Most of us had to work the next

10 day. We had to unload and load some grain.

11 Q. Did you see a person during the interrogations that was

12 conducting some of the interrogations by the name of

13 Mensur Kovac?

14 A. I do not recall. Maybe I did but I didn't know who he

15 was. I just saw Miroslav Bozic and another one, at

16 least someone who introduced himself as Miroslav Bozic

17 and another man, who was there taking notes. I don't

18 know who he was.

19 Q. Do you know a person by the name of Mensur Kovac?

20 A. No.

21 Q. Now from the time that you were taken into custody in

22 the valley until the time you got to the hotel in Mount

23 Igman and in the hotel in Mount Igman, you were beaten a

24 number of times, several times. I think that's a fair

25 statement; is that correct?

Page 4833

1 A. Yes. Yes. It is. They beat us all the time: upon

2 being arrested, as we walked, on the vehicle, and when

3 we entered this area, which I assume was some kind of a

4 night-club.

5 Q. The question I have is: how after the series of such

6 severe beatings you were able then the next day to do a

7 full day's work, loading grain into sacks and loading it

8 up on to trucks? How could you do that after being

9 beaten so severely over and over and over on your way

10 there?

11 A. I wondered too. I wondered, but who asked? We just

12 had to do what we were told. I couldn't see. I had

13 to keep my eyes open with my fingers in order to be able

14 to see anything.

15 Q. So even though you were able to do it, it was extremely

16 difficult, considering the nature of your injuries at

17 that point?

18 A. Yes, indeed.

19 Q. The cut on your ear that you received, did you ever get

20 any treatment for that cut, the bayonet cut of your ear?

21 A. Yes. The next day I put a Band-Aid -- the doctor came

22 and put a Band-Aid on it at the intervention of Miroslav

23 Bozic, who intervened on my behalf.

24 Q. Any medication of any kind?

25 A. No.

Page 4834

1 Q. I want to now go to Celebici and ask you some questions

2 about Celebici. You've talked with both the Prosecutor

3 and Mr. Moran about the time that Jasmin Guska came and

4 talked to you and told you that he was going to send you

5 with some police to recover your weapon. That's the

6 part I want to talk about; okay?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Now I take it that you knew at the time that you

9 acquired that weapon and the time you had that weapon

10 that being in possession of such a weapon was a

11 violation of the laws of Yugoslavia?

12 A. At the time everybody was violating the law, not just

13 me.

14 Q. I understand. Everybody you knew in Bradina was doing

15 the same thing you were doing; correct?

16 A. Not just in Bradina. In the neighbouring villages the

17 Muslims were doing the same thing, only they had more

18 legal way to do it, because in Bradina a reserve police

19 station was formed, because Bradina is a purely Serb

20 village -- 99 per cent of the inhabitants are Serb --

21 and in the Elementary School in 1991 the station of the

22 reserve police was situated, which was composed 90 per

23 cent of Muslims. There weren't 5 or 6 per cent Serbs,

24 but Muslims who kept changing. Every ten days new ones

25 would come, so that they could arm as many as possible.

Page 4835

1 Q. Yes. The answer to my question, I guess, is: "Yes,

2 I knew it was against the law but everyone else was

3 doing it too." Is that a fair statement?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. You described during your direct examination an incident

6 involving a couple of brothers by the name of Dordic

7 that were sitting near the front door of Hangar

8 Number 6. Do you know who I'm talking about and the

9 incident I'm talking about? The incident I'm talking

10 about has to do with a sexual matter.

11 A. Yes. Yes.

12 Q. Do you know what I'm talking about?

13 A. Yes. Yes.

14 Q. Have you have ever -- had you ever known these two

15 brothers Dordic before Celebici?

16 A. Yes, of course, because we come from the same village.

17 Q. Have you ever told anyone at any time that these two

18 brothers were mentally retarded?

19 A. Yes, one of them, but I don't know how the other

20 finished school either. Veso, the younger one, in my

21 judgement, is the younger brother.

22 Q. This incident you described for the court, it's true,

23 isn't it, that although Mr. Landzo was present, it was a

24 guard by the name of Osman Dedic that was basically

25 making them perform those acts?

Page 4836

1 A. No.

2 Q. Was Osman Dedic there at the time?

3 A. Yes. He was in Celebici. He was also a guard.

4 Q. But was he in the hangar standing in front of the Dordic

5 brothers when you say that Mr. Landzo --

6 A. He may have been outside the door. He may have been

7 outside the door, but I didn't see him from where I was

8 sitting.

9 Q. You were sitting quite some distance away from where

10 this happened, were you not?

11 A. Yes, about 25 metres.

12 Q. Could I ask the usher to show you the diagram upon which

13 you made your mark yesterday of your location there?

14 (Handed). Could we put that on the overhead, please,

15 the ELMO? Okay. Do you see the diagram?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. You see the "X" where you told us yesterday that you

18 were sitting; correct?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Your Honours, I would like to have him make some more

21 marks on this but I don't want to desecrate the

22 prosecution's exhibit by doing that without their

23 permission. I think they have multiple copies of this

24 same thing, so if they would rather substitute one that

25 I can use as a Defence Exhibit, that would be fine with

Page 4837

1 me?

2 MR. TURONE: We can provide Mr. Ackerman with another copy of

3 this map.

4 MR. ACKERMAN: Thank you very much.

5 Now you will see, Mr. Dordic, that we've put what

6 is really an exact duplicate of that other diagram on

7 the ELMO there and what's missing from it is the "X"

8 that would mark where your spot was, so could you please

9 put that on that particular diagram for us?

10 A. (Indicating).

11 Q. Now what I would like you to do in addition is put two

12 "X"s at the spot where the Dordic brothers were

13 located?

14 A. (Indicating).

15 Q. You have done that. Could you next to that put a "D"

16 just so we will know that that's the spot you made for

17 the Dordic brothers, just the letter "D"? Put that next

18 to it, please?

19 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Instead of "X"?

20 MR. ACKERMAN: Yes, because he already has an "X" for

21 himself.

22 A. I put the letter in front.

23 Q. Thank you very much. I can't remember if you told us

24 this yesterday or not. I believe you said that there

25 came a time when you measured that building, that space

Page 4838

1 in there, and that's how you knew what size it was.

2 Did you actually measure it?

3 A. It was roughly. There was nothing I could measure it

4 with.

5 Q. So you never actually conducted a precise measurement of

6 the size of that -- of the inside of that building, did

7 you?

8 A. With what? With my feet perhaps or steps.

9 Q. Well, did you step it off to see what size it was?

10 A. We weren't allowed to move around.

11 Q. So the answer to my question is: no, you never measured

12 is; right?

13 A. No.

14 Q. Okay. Could you show the judges, please, by putting a

15 "DB" on the chart where Dusko Bendjo was sitting? Just

16 put the letters "DB" where Dusko Bendjo was located at

17 the time.

18 A. Dusko Bendjo?

19 Q. Yes.

20 A. (Indicating).

21 Q. Did you put a "DB" there?

22 A. (No translation).

23 MR. ACKERMAN: No translation.

24 A. He changed places. First he was here and then he was

25 moved to the other side. He was moved by Mr. Delic.

Page 4839

1 Q. Okay. The place I am interested in having you identify

2 for us is the place that you described him sitting this

3 morning after his legs had been burned. Where was

4 that?

5 A. "DB" is that what I should put?

6 Q. Yes, "DB".

7 A. (Indicated).

8 Q. Have you done that?

9 A. I have.

10 Q. He wouldn't have been sitting along that wall alone.

11 There would have been a line of other prisoners on both

12 sides of him; correct?

13 A. Of course he wasn't alone.

14 Q. There would have been somebody sitting right to his

15 immediate right?

16 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Can we have a break and come back in

17 30 minutes' time?

18 MR. ACKERMAN: Yes.

19 (4.00 pm)

20 (Short break)

21 (4.30 pm)

22 (Witness re-enters court)

23 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Kindly remind him he is still on his

24 oath.

25 THE REGISTRAR: I am reminding you that you are still under

Page 4840

1 oath.

2 A. I realise that.

3 MR. ACKERMAN: Thank you, your Honours.

4 Welcome back, Mr. Dordic. We were in the process

5 of making a map and it's still sitting next to you.

6 I think where we had got to, if I can get the map up

7 on the screen here, is you had put a "DB" where Dusko

8 Bendjo was sitting at the time we were talking about;

9 correct?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. You described for us this morning an incident involving

12 another burning, and that person's name is Nedjelko

13 Draganic. Can you show us where he was sitting by

14 marking it with an "ND", please?

15 A. (Indicating).

16 Q. For the record, you have done that. You have placed an

17 "ND" on what the Registrar has identified as exhibit

18 11-4, have you not?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Okay. The next person who I'd like -- whose location

21 I would like you to identify for me is named Momir

22 Kuljanin. Put an "MK".

23 A. (Indicating).

24 Q. For the record, you have put an "MK" where Momir

25 Kuljanin was seated; correct?

Page 4841

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. The last one whom I would like you to identify the

3 location of is Milivoj Gligorevic?

4 A. (Indicating).

5 Q. For the record, you have done that; correct?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Now you told us during your direct examination that

8 there was a time when another person was asked to hit

9 Milivoj Gligorevic with a shoe?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Could you tell us again the name of the person -- who it

12 was that was asked to hit him with the shoe?

13 A. Boro Koprivica.

14 Q. Could you show us then on the diagram, by using "BK",

15 where he sat?

16 A. (Indicating).

17 Q. You have done that; correct?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Using the initials "BK"?

20 A. Yes. Yes.

21 Q. Okay. I'll now ask the usher to show you what turns

22 out to be an awfully poor photograph, but I think you

23 may be able to identify it, and I want you to tell me if

24 you can. Please put it on the ...

25 MR. TURONE: Have we seen this photograph?

Page 4842

1 MR. ACKERMAN: Numerous times it has been shown before in

2 the court. Show it to Mr. Turone, just so he knows he

3 has seen it.

4 MR. TURONE: Thank you very much.

5 THE USHER: This one?

6 MR. ACKERMAN: The one that I'm looking at right now. My

7 only question is: do you recognise that scene?

8 Do you know where that is?

9 A. It reminds me of Hangar Number 6.

10 Q. And does it show the way that the prisoners were seated

11 in Hangar Number 6?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. What that shows is that there were in addition to a row

14 of prisoners against the long walls, there was another

15 row sitting directly in front of that row, so that there

16 would have been four rows lengthwise in that building;

17 correct?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. If you will now pick that exhibit up off the ELMO, so

20 you can see the diagram you drew, then I'll ask you an

21 additional question. You've got a mark on that diagram

22 that appears to be sitting out in the middle of the

23 floor. I think that's Momir Kuljanin or Nedjelko

24 Draganic. It's Nedjelko Draganic. That mark sitting

25 out in the middle of the floor away from the wall would

Page 4843

1 show that he was really sitting in one of those long

2 rows of people; correct?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. People in those rows along the wall and in front of them

5 were sitting quite close together, were they not?

6 A. Yes. The row that can be seen here, against this wall,

7 and these were -- they were a bit further back. This

8 side here was a bit further back.

9 Q. Okay. At this point I will move to introduce the

10 diagram that the witness made that was furnished by the

11 prosecution to us as exhibit 11/4. Then I would also

12 ask that the photograph that I just showed him be marked

13 as an exhibit and I'll move to introduce that when we

14 have a designation for it. Then I also want to move

15 the introduction of the two colour photographs that he

16 identified, which have been marked as Exhibit 5/2 and

17 6/2?

18 MR. TURONE: We have in objection, your Honours.

19 JUDGE JAN: Can I have a look at the photograph of Hangar

20 Number 6?

21 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: The black and white one.

22 MR. ACKERMAN: Do we have a number assigned now to the

23 photograph that was just handed to Judge Jan?

24 JUDGE JAN: Mr. Hocking, take this.

25 THE REGISTRAR: It's number D12/4.

Page 4844

1 MR. ACKERMAN: Then my offer would include D12/4 and the

2 Office of the Prosecutor has already said they have no

3 objection, so I assume that those four that I have

4 offered are now admitted; is that correct?

5 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Since it's not been objected to, they

6 are admitted.

7 MR. ACKERMAN: Thank you, your Honour. I think I have one

8 more area, Mr. Dordic, that I want to discuss with you.

9 I want to remind you of your testimony regarding an

10 incident where Mr. Delic came to Hangar Number 6 and a

11 weapon was fired into the ceiling, and three or four

12 people were injured as a result of the bullet

13 fragmenting and flying around. You remember what I'm

14 talking about; correct?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. And my recollection of your testimony, although I'm not

17 certain, and that's why I want to ask you about it, is

18 that that happened some time during the month of August

19 1992; is that correct?

20 A. No, not in August. Some time in July, early July,

21 I believe, somewhere around there.

22 Q. And after that happened and it became apparent that

23 people were injured, you've told us that Mr. Delic

24 immediately put them in his car and drove them off to

25 Building 22 for treatment?

Page 4845

1 A. I don't know if it was a car, because I was not outside.

2 Q. But you know that he did take them there?

3 A. He took them somewhere and when they came back, they

4 said that these fragments of the bullets were taken out.

5 Q. Okay. At the time this happened the persons with

6 Mr. Delic were maybe some other guards from Celebici, but

7 no-one else; correct?

8 A. No, he was alone.

9 Q. All right. That concludes my cross-examination, your

10 Honours. Thank you.

11 Cross-examination by MR. GREAVES

12 MR. GREAVES: Good afternoon, Mr. Dordic.

13 May it please your Honours? I would like to ask

14 you, Mr. Dordic, please --

15 A. Good afternoon.

16 Q. Thank you. I would like to ask you just a little bit

17 more about the incident when you were taken by the

18 police to go and recover your weapon that you had

19 hidden. Essentially that was an operation organised by

20 MUP, Jasmin Guska and Sevko Niksic; is that right?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Did those two that I've named to you, did they go with

23 you to where the weapon was hidden, or did they send

24 someone to do it for you?

25 A. No. They sent someone else, yes.

Page 4846

1 Q. Were you taken there in a vehicle?

2 A. In a Golf vehicle. It was white and blue.

3 Q. A Volkswagen Golf?

4 A. Yes, Volkswagen.

5 Q. Was one of the people that took you to that place -- I

6 think name was Sljivo?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Is Sljivo a first or a second name?

9 A. It's a last name. I don't recall the first name.

10 I only know that he was a goalkeeper of the soccer club

11 Igman from Konjic and just before the war he was the

12 trainer for the goalkeepers. He was one of the reserve

13 policemen. I don't know if he was a commander there or

14 not but he was in the reserve police.

15 Q. I'm not going to ask about his function in the police

16 but would the name Dzevad Sljivo, would that sound

17 right?

18 A. That's exactly the name maybe. I only know him as

19 Sljivo.

20 Q. Certainly we may well hear in due course about a reserve

21 police officer by that very name. He was the one who

22 drove the vehicle, was he?

23 A. No. I think it was Vahid Macic who drove -- no, Alagic.

24 Q. I think when you got to the place where the weapon was

25 concealed, I think you were beaten up by this man

Page 4847

1 Sljivo; is that right?

2 A. He started beating me, but he was warned by this Vahid

3 Alagic and then he stopped.

4 Q. Not to do it in front of your mother; I think was what

5 happened; is that right?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Thank you. Now I just want briefly to ask you about

8 another man, please, Mr. Dordic, if I may: Jovan

9 Divijak. I am sorry if I mispronounced the name, but

10 does that name ring a bell to you?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Is that someone who came at least once to the camp at

13 Celebici?

14 A. I did not see him, but he was seen by a prisoner Radovan

15 Mrsic, who knew him personally, like I did, because for

16 a while he was a commander. Jovan Divijak was

17 Commander for the Territorial Defence for Mostar, for

18 the Mostar region, and he spent a lot of time in the

19 training centre in Borci conducting some courses, and if

20 there were these courses going on, I would be there as a

21 cook. So I knew him well. We spent at least one year

22 conducting these courses and these trainings.

23 Q. Is he a Serb or a Muslim or what?

24 A. Serb. He is a Muslim general.

25 Q. Do you know what the visit to the camp was about? Were

Page 4848

1 you told that?

2 A. I don't know.

3 Q. What were you told about his visit?

4 A. Radovan Mrsic told me -- he said -- I was called

5 "Mrkela". He said: "Mrkela, your friend is coming.

6 He told you -- he told me when he saw me -- he said:

7 'That's what you deserved'". That's what he said when

8 he saw Radovan Mrsic, because Radovan Mrsic was cleaning

9 something outside at that time.

10 Q. All right. Would your Honour just give me a moment,

11 please? I just want to ask you one question, please,

12 about your interrogation before you actually arrived at

13 the camp. Was one of the people engaged in that

14 process a man called Mensur Kovac? Does that ring a

15 bell, Mr. Dordic?

16 A. Mensur Kovac, no, not me.

17 Q. So you didn't see that person at all at the time before

18 the camp?

19 A. No, I didn't even know him. I don't even know who he

20 is.

21 Q. All right.

22 A. I never mentioned him anywhere.

23 Q. I would like now just to turn, please, to Mr. Mucic and

24 some details concerning him, please, if we may. You've

25 told their Honours about the first time that you saw

Page 4849

1 him. Would you accept this, please, Mr. Dordic, that,

2 as far as the time when you first saw him, you are not

3 sure in which month it was that you first saw Mr. Mucic

4 in the camp?

5 A. Most probably it was June, the first time I saw him.

6 Q. But you're not sure which month it was, Mr. Dordic; is

7 that right?

8 A. I think it's correct that I said.

9 Q. As far as his uniform was concerned, it's right, isn't

10 it, that there was no insignia on that uniform?

11 A. I think he did not have insignia. I'm not sure but

12 I think he did not have them.

13 Q. I want now to explore something that you told the court

14 earlier on today and the phrase that you used in

15 evidence about Mr. Mucic was that everybody respected

16 him. So I'm just going to ask you a series of

17 questions about that, Mr. Dordic, if I may, please. You

18 obviously knew him before the war?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. How did you meet him?

21 A. Without moustache. I'm a waiter and he used to -- he

22 liked to frequent cafes.

23 Q. Well, nothing wrong with that, is there, if you are a

24 waiter?

25 A. Of course not.

Page 4850

1 Q. Would he -- whereabouts were you employed at that

2 stage? What was the name of the cafe that you worked

3 in?

4 A. You mean before the war?

5 Q. Before the war?

6 A. There were many different cafes. I don't want to list

7 them. At least ten that I worked in.

8 Q. Which was the one that he used to come to and drink at?

9 A. Well, he would come to all of them.

10 Q. All of them; right. So he was well-known in the cafes

11 of the area then?

12 A. Yes, all the way up until the time -- I don't know

13 exactly when he went to Austria before the war or when

14 he would not be in jail.

15 Q. So you knew him. Did you like him before the war, when

16 he came to your cafes?

17 A. We had some mutual friends. There was Miroslav and

18 some others.

19 Q. Would this be right, that he was someone who mixed

20 across the ethnic boundaries quite a lot, mixed with

21 Serbs, mixed with Croats, mixed with Muslims quite

22 happily and freely; is that right?

23 A. Yes. He mixed with everyone.

24 Q. Some of the people who were in the camp with you, no

25 doubt they also knew him from before the war; would that

Page 4851

1 be right? Would that be something you knew about?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Now you've told the court that he had, as you have

4 described it -- everybody respected him. Would this be

5 right, Mr. Dordic, that in the context of what was

6 happening at the camp, that was a respect that he had to

7 earn from the people in the camp?

8 A. It's not so much respecting him as that they feared him,

9 because he was their superior. They all looked at him

10 as commander.

11 Q. Yes, but the word that you used was "respect"?

12 A. That's what appeared to us.

13 Q. There were --

14 A. But I didn't say that there was respect.

15 Q. Well --

16 A. Maybe it was wrong interpretation there.

17 Q. That was the word that was translated to us,

18 Mr. Dordic. May I suggest some reasons why that would

19 be so --

20 A. That's possible.

21 Q. When you were being mistreated by a man called Salko --

22 do you remember telling us about that incident?

23 A. Salko. Salko did not mistreat me ever, but when Zenga

24 burnt my tongue, Salko stood at the door and at one

25 point he said: "Here's Pavo", and then he ran out and

Page 4852

1 told me to get back to my place.

2 Q. And they got you quickly back to your place, did they?

3 A. Yes. I went back by myself, on my own.

4 Q. Before Pavo came?

5 A. He never came. I don't know if that was Salko's trick

6 so that Zenga would leave me alone or something. I

7 don't know. I'm not clear about that.

8 Q. There was, I think, another occasion when your brother

9 was being assaulted, but you weren't present, I think,

10 at that; is that right?

11 A. No.

12 Q. But you remember hearing from your brother about him

13 being assaulted?

14 A. Yes. He was brought out by Kemal Mr.dzic and by -- we

15 called him Crni. He said he was from the Doboj area.

16 We heard they started beating him. We heard the noise

17 of a vehicle and a door opened all of a sudden and he

18 ran inside. After a while they asked Zaro to come out,

19 because Zaro at that time was some kind of a leader.

20 He was sort of superior of us. He was a prisoner but

21 he was appointed our superior. Then when he came out,

22 he said that: "Pavo was asking whether you had been

23 beaten", and Rajko said that he was not, because he

24 didn't dare say "Yes", because again they heard

25 something, and then Zaro apparently went out and told

Page 4853

1 Pavo that he had not been beaten.

2 Q. But isn't this right, that during the course of your

3 brother being beaten up someone said that Pavo's car was

4 coming; do you remember that?

5 A. We could even hear the sound of the vehicle. I don't

6 know if that was Pavo's car. That I don't know. We

7 inside heard a car approaching.

8 Q. But nevertheless, when the car started to approach, the

9 guards took instant steps to conceal both themselves and

10 your brother, so that if it was Pavo, he wouldn't see

11 what was going on; do you remember that?

12 A. Me? My brother?

13 Q. Your brother.

14 A. I don't know if they hid. I know that my brother came

15 inside.

16 Q. Wasn't this the case, that that was frequently how

17 matters would happen? If Pavo appeared on the scene,

18 things that were being done wrong would stop, wouldn't

19 they?

20 A. Well, if something was going on at the time yes, of

21 course it would stop, at least what I know about.

22 Q. I would like now to ask about your transfer to the

23 Musala camp on 21st August. Do you remember that taking

24 place?

25 A. Yes, I remember very well.

Page 4854

1 Q. One of the reasons for that was that you were at that

2 time suffering from a skin disease known as psoriasis?

3 A. Yes, because of psoriasis and I was very thin. I was

4 like a skeleton, a walking skeleton.

5 Q. Well, you will see that I can't share with you the

6 condition of being thin, Mr. Dordic?

7 A. I think that was the reason.

8 Q. I can share with you the experience of having

9 psoriasis. I know a little bit about that. Was your

10 psoriasis very bad at that time? I think you described

11 it as being on your face?

12 A. Yes, on my face, my hands, my body, all over my body,

13 wherever the bones are, all over. I was all covered.

14 Q. Did -- there are a number of ways in which it can

15 manifest itself. Was it just scaling of the skin, dead

16 skin coming off, or was it worse than that? Was there

17 any bleeding from the psoriasis?

18 A. No. As we were perspiring a lot it was very hot, it

19 would scale and then the skin would be very red

20 underneath. The white skin would come off and beneath

21 the skin would be raw red.

22 Q. When Pavo came to see you, it would obviously have been

23 quite obvious to you that you were suffering from that,

24 because your face would show it?

25 A. He asked me what it was. He didn't know what it was,

Page 4855

1 so I explained it to him. I told him it was psoriasis.

2 Q. Just help me about this. Have you always suffered from

3 psoriasis? Have you had it before the war at all?

4 A. Since 1975. It would appear occasionally, but I always

5 have it here on my elbows.

6 Q. I think it tends to disappear when you're in the sun and

7 you look as though you've been in the sun a fair bit,

8 Mr. Dordic, recently?

9 A. Sometimes it disappears; sometimes not.

10 Q. When he saw you in that condition, he took steps to have

11 you removed to Musala for albeit a short period?

12 A. Probably, since I was moved, that was probably the

13 reason, and he had the power to do it.

14 Q. Finally this, Mr. Dordic, if I may, please: he was

15 responsible for transferring out of the camp Esad

16 Landzo; is that right?

17 A. I think it was him. I think -- the guards told us that

18 it was Pavo who chased him away. I'm not sure, but

19 that was what we heard from the guards. Whether they

20 were lying or not I can't tell.

21 Q. Whenever it may have happened, the immediate reason for

22 it was that he'd fired a weapon near to some people; is

23 that right?

24 A. He would fire at us. We would hear the firing when we

25 had visits along the wire fence. Whether that was the

Page 4856

1 main reason I don't know.

2 Q. Thank you very much, Mr. Dordic. I have no further

3 questions for you.

4 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Thank you very much.

5 Cross-examination by MS. RESIDOVIC

6 MS. RESIDOVIC (in interpretation): Your Honours, if I can

7 have a minute to set myself up, because it's a bit more

8 complicated for us, as we have to find our

9 interpretation booth for Serbo-Croatian or rather the

10 three languages that we now speak.

11 May I start, your Honours?

12 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Yes, you have the witness.

13 MS. RESIDOVIC (in interpretation): Good afternoon,

14 Mr. Dordic.

15 A. Good afternoon.

16 Q. My name is Edina Residovic. I am defence counsel for

17 Mr. Zejnil Delalic.

18 A. I'm glad to meet you.

19 Q. You have been answering for some time questions put to

20 you by my learned colleagues, both the prosecution and

21 the defence, and I have now been asked by the Registry,

22 though I wanted to do that for our own benefit anyway,

23 that we come to an agreement, namely when somebody is

24 putting questions to you in English, then it is normal

25 for you to wait for the interpretation and then to

Page 4857

1 answer the question. However, as both of us speak a

2 language that we understand very well, we get carried

3 away and we enter into a dialogue. So I would like to

4 ask you when you hear my question to wait a bit for the

5 answer until you have heard the question having been

6 interpreted into English and French, and I will do the

7 same, so that everyone is the courtroom will be able to

8 understand what we are talking about. Have I made

9 myself clear?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Thank you. Mr. Dordic, you stated in the Tribunal that

12 around 19th April you left Konjic and went to Bradina;

13 is that correct?

14 A. No, I was in Bradina all the time, only I was living in

15 Konjic -- I was working in Konjic until the 19th.

16 Q. And you were working at the Konjic motel; is that so?

17 A. Until the 19th.

18 Q. Until the 19th. At that time very major disturbances

19 had started in Bosnia-Herzegovina; is that so?

20 A. Yes. The situation was very tense between Serbs,

21 Muslims and Croats.

22 Q. In Mostar the combat operations had already started?

23 A. As far as we were informed by the media.

24 Q. In Sarajevo the conflict started on April 6th; isn't

25 that so?

Page 4858

1 A. Yes, as far as we learned by the mass media, because I

2 didn't travel there.

3 Q. And also you were informed by the media that on this day

4 a state of -- immediate state of war had been proclaimed

5 in Bosnia-Herzegovina?

6 A. I was not aware of that.

7 Q. You have already stated in your testimony so far that in

8 Bradina, like the rest of the population, because of the

9 fear that was mounting among the people, you yourself

10 tried to organise yourself in the event that you had to

11 defend yourself; isn't that so?

12 A. Yes. Yes.

13 Q. And you said that this was done by other inhabitants of

14 Bradina as well?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Let me go back to your occupation. You said that you

17 were a waiter and you completed the appropriate training

18 in Mostar?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. A moment ago you told my colleague that acting as a

21 waiter in many places in Konjic you met many people in

22 Konjic. Some of them you knew by sight and others

23 became acquaintances; is that so?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Mr. Dordic, you were known as "Mrkela"; isn't that so?

Page 4859

1 A. Just before the war, yes, because of Mrkela, the

2 football player, and I was a Red Star supporter, a

3 supporter of the Red Star team.

4 Q. So some people who were talking about Mrkela the waiter

5 meant you?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Mr. Dordic, I am sure you can confirm in the area of

8 Konjic and especially Bradina the Dordic family is a

9 very large one; isn't that so?

10 A. It's not very large, but among the larger ones in

11 Bradina, yes.

12 Q. Your father's name is Nedeljko, isn't it?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. And your mother's name, Todora?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. And her maiden name was Mrkajic?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. And the Mrkajic family is numerous in Bradina too, isn't

19 it?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Your wife's maiden name is Mrkajic too?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Therefore, you are related to this family both by your

24 mother and through your wife; isn't that so?

25 A. Yes.

Page 4860

1 Q. Mr. Dordic, Bradina at the time was a component part of

2 the municipality of Konjic, wasn't it?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. In Konjic at the time members of all ethnic groups were

5 living?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. The Muslim population was somewhat more numerous, but

8 everyone was living together; isn't that so?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. The municipality has its legal bodies, the Assembly, its

11 committees, the MUP and others; isn't that so?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. In April, while you were still working, you know that

14 Djuro Kuljanin was the Vice President of the Municipal

15 Assembly?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. The President was Dr. Rusmir Hadzihuseinovic?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Djuro Kuljanin is a Serb?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Djuro Kuljanin was never dismissed from his position?

22 A. Yes. Until he left. I was not involved in politics

23 but I think they were virtually separated, just before

24 the war broke out.

25 Q. Mr. Dordic, you don't know that he was replaced. You

Page 4861

1 know that he came to Bradina, though, don't you?

2 A. When?

3 Q. At the end of April?

4 A. I was not aware that he came to Bradina.

5 Q. You were not aware that he was replaced either?

6 A. No.

7 Q. Very well. Thank you. Mr. Dordic, you told the court

8 that within the framework of your self-organisation you

9 formed guard duty on the road in Bradina, checkpoint?

10 A. Members of the reserve police set up checkpoints.

11 Those who were reserve policemen, and when the reserve

12 police force withdrew -- I don't remember exactly when

13 -- they retreated to Podorasac from Bradina -- then

14 just those who were left from the reserve force

15 controlled the checkpoints from April onwards, let's say

16 from 20th April.

17 Q. Therefore, from April 20th in front of Mico's cafe on

18 the main road in Bradina there was a checkpoint held by

19 the local people of Bradina?

20 A. That's a mistake. Not in front of Mico's cafe.

21 Q. Tell me where.

22 A. In front of the butcher's shop owned by Edo. I don't

23 remember his surname and at the Ivan tunnel, in front of

24 the Ivan tunnel.

25 Q. That checkpoint was not put up by the Konjic

Page 4862

1 authorities?

2 A. No.

3 Q. The persons who set up the checkpoints had no permission

4 from the executive board of the municipality, nor from

5 any other competent authority. Do you know that?

6 A. Yes, I do, but at that time there were no people passing

7 through Bradina any more. There were very few people.

8 Q. Those who were passed -- allowed to pass at the

9 checkpoint?

10 A. Yes, at the checkpoint. I think that had to do with

11 Ilija and down there in Podorasac.

12 Q. Mr. Dordic, because you were in Konjic until April 19th

13 you know that a general mobilisation had been proclaimed

14 in Konjic on April 17th?

15 A. Yes. I received a call-up call, which I rejected.

16 Q. Therefore, you did not respond to the draft which you

17 received?

18 A. Not the kind of call-up call that I received, because it

19 was stated --

20 Q. You know that refusal to respond to mobilisation

21 according to the law of our country, both the former

22 Yugoslavia and since, is a criminal offence?

23 A. I did not wish to respond to the call-up in the way it

24 was stated. It asked us to remove the old insignia

25 from uniforms, if we had any uniforms, that they would

Page 4863

1 give us new insignia, and that we should get our own

2 weapons. I did go where we were told to go, to the

3 local community premises, but there was nobody there

4 from Konjic.

5 Q. The only thing you did was to illegally get yourself a

6 weapon; isn't that so?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Mr. Dordic, you did -- you were not fired from the motel

9 where you worked the day you went off to Bradina?

10 A. The acting general manager at that time, Marko Draganic,

11 told me: "You're going on unpaid leave."

12 Q. And after that leave, you didn't go back?

13 A. No. My documents are still there.

14 Q. I hope you will be able to go back to work soon.

15 A. No, I don't believe so.

16 Q. Mr. Dordic, you testified in court that around 12th or

17 13th May the first attack occurred in the region of your

18 village, which you successfully repulsed; isn't that so?

19 A. I didn't take part in that. That was on the other

20 side, because Bradina covers an area of some 6 to 7 km.

21 as the crow flies. At least it was far away from my

22 house.

23 Q. But the defenders who were there, they managed to reject

24 the attack. You know that your neighbour Zovko Zvonko

25 was in charge of that first attack?

Page 4864

1 A. And some people from Repovci -- who was an active duty

2 officer. I can't remember his name.

3 Q. But after that you started to arm with greater haste,

4 isn't that so?

5 A. No. After that we couldn't move anywhere. We simply

6 used the road that is 5 km. long between one tunnel and

7 the other.

8 Q. But you started digging trenches?

9 A. No. As far as I know, not a metre of trenches had been

10 dug out.

11 Q. So if your compatriots, the people from your town, said

12 so, then it is wrong?

13 A. I at least don't know that they were being dug out and

14 I did not participate in any trench digging.

15 Q. Mr. Dordic, are you aware that the authorities from

16 Konjic had tried through various negotiations to resolve

17 the problem of checkpoints and weapons?

18 A. Yes. I would hear from them when they came back from

19 these negotiations.

20 Q. Do you know that they asked -- that they addressed

21 almost an ultimatum that the weapons be handed in and

22 that the road be freed for circulation?

23 A. According to the information we were given on 25th,

24 negotiations were to have been held in Podorasac or

25 Bradina -- I'm not sure of that, of the place -- at

Page 4865

1 about noon or 1 o'clock. Agreement was supposed to

2 have been reached to hand over weapons and that we were

3 to be allowed peacefully to cross over into territory

4 held by the Serbs. At least that was the information

5 I received. However, instead of any such agreement an

6 attack ensued.

7 Q. I didn't ask you that. However, as you have already

8 testified, neither you nor the other people of Bradina

9 did not hand in your weapons until May 25th?

10 A. No.

11 Q. And these two checkpoints were not removed by that date,

12 the one in front of the butcher's and the other one in

13 front of the tunnel?

14 A. No.

15 Q. I think that you, like others, can testify before this

16 court that virtually anywhere or anywhere along a

17 highway, if checkpoints and barricades are put up, then

18 communication between Konjic and Sarajevo is virtually

19 impossible?

20 A. I know that, but barricades were there long ago, so that

21 our barricades were not necessary at all. There were

22 no people passing through Bradina.

23 Q. But to go back to your earlier answer, you confirmed a

24 moment ago that some barricades were put up by the legal

25 authorities because of the immediate threat of war?

Page 4866

1 A. Yes. On 19th or 20th, the last time I went to Konjic,

2 I saw the checkpoint in Podorasac. This was 20th

3 April.

4 Q. Very well. Your brother is Rajko Dordic, isn't he?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. He was working in the Territorial Defence staff of

7 Konjic?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Your brother Rajko was not dismissed from the staff of

10 the Territorial Defence of Konjic, was he?

11 A. I don't know. I'm not aware of that. He left of his

12 own accord.

13 Q. Roughly at the same time as you, around April 20th, he

14 came to Bradina?

15 A. Yes. I was the one to bring him back, because at that

16 time he didn't have a car.

17 Q. So you and your brother Rajko went from Konjic to

18 Bradina that day by car and you didn't go back until the

19 period of combat operations that you have discussed here

20 at length?

21 A. No, I didn't go back. That was the last time I left --

22 I went from there. Only when I was arrested I was

23 taken there by force.

24 Q. In view of the work he had in the Territorial Defence

25 staff, he had some experience in terms of the

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1 self-defence of people; isn't that so?

2 A. Probably, but there was no organisation really at all.

3 Q. Nevertheless with his knowledge, he assisted people who

4 asked him for his advice?

5 A. He did.

6 Q. And he took part in the work of the crisis staff that

7 was formed in Bradina?

8 A. He did.

9 Q. Speaking before this Tribunal, Mr. Dordic, you recognised

10 on one of the photographs the type of weapon that you

11 had. It is an automatic rifle, isn't it?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. As I have no understanding of weapons, even though

14 I have seen the picture, I would like to ask you whether

15 it is a rifle that we tend to call popularly a

16 Kalasnikov?

17 A. The Muslims called it the gypsy, because it was

18 manufactured in Kragoviz.

19 Q. Therefore your rifle was of domestic make?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Mr. Dordic, you said that you purchased that gun on the

22 black market. Can you tell me whether you local people

23 in Bradina helped each other to find weapons?

24 A. Those who did helped each other, but -- who had secret

25 connections, but they carried their secret to their

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1 graves.

2 Q. Is it true that you got your rifle from Branislav

3 Gligorevic?

4 A. He brought it to me and I gave him the money, as much as

5 he asked, and everything was all right.

6 Q. And you also received from Branislav Gligorevic 80

7 bullets, which you did not use during the operations?

8 A. Yes. I got some more later on, so I had a total of some

9 150.

10 Q. You are acquainted with Relja Gligorevic, aren't you?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Did you help him to get a semi-automatic rifle with 150

13 bullets through those same channels?

14 A. Yes, I did, through Branislav Gligorevic.

15 Q. Mr. Dordic, you also know Milivoj Gligorevic, who was a

16 driver in the railways, Sarajevo Railway Company. As

17 he had more money, he helped him to get an automatic

18 rifle and 270 bullets?

19 A. I don't know about that.

20 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Ms Residovic, how many longer are you

21 prepared to carry on. If you are concluding, okay.

22 I just want to know how much longer.

23 MS. RESIDOVIC (in interpretation): Mr. President, I need

24 quite a bit of time yet.

25 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: We are at 5.30 now and we are not

Page 4869

1 likely to sit tomorrow. We are not likely to. The

2 next you can come is Monday at about 11 o'clock. So I

3 don't know. I don't think you can pursue this line of

4 cross-examination now. I didn't think you would take

5 so long a time, but you have your own ideas. I think

6 we will rise now and reassemble on Monday at 11.

7 (5.30 pm)

8 (Hearing adjourned until 11.00 on Monday morning)

9 --ooOoo--

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