1 Tuesday, 15th July 1997
2 (10.00 am)
3 Witness M (continued)
4 Cross-examined by MR. ACKERMAN
5 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Good morning, ladies and gentlemen.
6 Now we continue from where we stopped yesterday. Can
7 you remind the witness he is still on his oath? Let's
8 have the appearances first and then we continue.
9 MS. McHENRY: Good morning, your Honours. I am Teresa
10 McHenry for the Office of the Prosecutor.
11 THE INTERPRETER: Excuse me. The witness apparently has
12 problems with the earphones.
13 THE REGISTRAR: I should like to remind you that you are
14 still testifying under oath. I wish to remind you ...
15 A. Okay.
16 THE REGISTRAR: I wish to remind you that you are still
17 testifying under oath.
18 MS. McHENRY: Good morning, your Honours. I am Teresa
19 McHenry with the Office of the Prosecutor. I appear
20 here with Mr. Giuliano Turone, my co-counsel, and Ms.
21 Elles van Dusschoten, our case manager.
22 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Thank you very much.
23 MS. RESIDOVIC (in interpretation): Good morning, your
24 Honours. I am Edina Residovic, defence counsel for
25 Mr. Zejnil Delalic. My co-counsel is Mr. Eugene
1 O'Sullivan, Professor from Canada.
2 MR. OLUJIC (in interpretation): Good morning, your
3 Honours. I am Zeljko Olujic, defence counsel of
4 Mr. Zdravko Mucic. With me as co-counsel is Michael
5 Greaves, attorney from the United Kingdom and Northern
7 MR. KARABDIC (in interpretation): Good morning, your
8 Honours. I am Salih Karabdic, lawyer from Sarajevo.
9 I am defence counsel for Mr. Hazim Delic. With me in
10 the team is Mr. Thomas Moran, attorney from Houston,
12 MR. ACKERMAN: Good morning, your Honours. I'm John
13 Ackerman. I appear here on behalf of Mr. Esad Landzo.
14 My co-counsel is Ms. Cynthia McMurrey from the United
15 States. Thank you.
16 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Thank you. Mr. Ackerman, I think you
17 can continue.
18 MS. McHENRY: If your Honours would like, I can give you an
19 update from my discussions with the witness yesterday
20 before Mr. Ackerman starts.
21 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: That's ideal. Let's hear your
23 MS. McHENRY: First of all, your Honour, it is the case that
24 in a published book entitled "Suffering of the Serbs in
25 Konjic and Tarcin" this witness' statement, which is in
1 Serbo-Croatian and is about half a page, is found. I
2 will note that the defence was advised that in last year
3 or in January that there were many books that were
4 publicly available about the suffering -- about what
5 happened in Celebici, and in particular then in a court
6 filing on 16th January 1997 the Prosecution again
7 reported in response to a motion filed by the Defence, a
8 general motion for disclosure of exculpatory evidence,
9 among other things -- the Prosecution noted that it was
10 aware of two books in particular, which included this
11 book, "Suffering of Serbs in Konjic and Tarcin", edited
12 by Dusica Bojic in Belgrade, from the Commissariat for
13 the Refugees of the Republic of Serbia, 1995. So the
14 Defence was told this book was published and was
15 available. Although it was stated it was not
16 necessary, the Prosecution did not believe it was
17 necessary, the Prosecution reported in this motion filed
18 before the court that it was willing to permit
19 inspection of these books. So the witness has
20 indicated -- has now seen this book and indicated that
21 this statement is, in fact, the statement that he is
22 referring to. It does not appear that this is the
23 exact same book that he saw, and I will note that this
24 is a book in which certain things such as the
25 introduction I think are in English and only the -- and
1 certain witness statements, some of which are named and
2 some of which are not, are in Serbo-Croatian. So it
3 may be that this witness has seen an earlier version of
4 this book that was just in Serbo-Croatian. This
5 witness does remember -- indicates that he remembers the
6 editor of the book that he saw, and that book was edited
7 by Sretan Jakouljevic, who is also in Belgrade. So
8 this book is presumably available in book stores or
9 libraries. So this witness also agreed to contact --
10 try to contact the person who he believes has a copy of
11 the exact book he saw, but he cannot do that now. The
12 Prosecution believes, given that the Defence may look at
13 this one and has been able to look at it since January
14 of 1997, it's not necessary for this witness to continue
15 any further efforts, but I will just update the court
16 that that's the situation.
17 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Thank you very much. It depends on
18 what the Defence regards the statement which hasn't been
19 tendered to them made by the witness, but even in that
20 case, except the witness is in possession of the
21 statements, there is no way he can tender them.
22 MR. MORAN: Excuse me, your Honour. This raises another
23 issue and maybe the Prosecution can help us with this.
24 Under the provisions of Rule 66(A) it requires the
25 Prosecutor to provide the Defence, even without request,
1 copies of all statements of witnesses in the possession
2 of the Prosecution.
3 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: In their possession.
4 MR. MORAN: That's correct, your Honour. I would like to
5 know if there are other prosecution witnesses whose
6 statements are in this book.
7 JUDGE JAN: Mr. Moran, read Rule 66A:
8 "Statements obtained by the Prosecutor".
9 MR. MORAN: Your Honour, as I understand it, there is a
10 decision, and I think it is in the Tadic case, but
11 I could be wrong -- it may be in the Blaskic case --
12 which says it doesn't make any difference how these
13 statements come into the possession of OTP. It defines
14 "obtained" in a broad way that "obtained" means get as
15 opposed to questioning the witness, but I could be wrong
16 on that, your Honour.
17 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Have you exercised your entitlement
18 under Rule 67B? I think you have.
19 MR. MORAN: Although we did ask for request under 66B, it
20 would be my position that Rule 66A is a requirement on
21 the Prosecution, whether or not the Defence asked for
23 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: I'm not disputing that. That is what
24 you should attach to the indictment and the like, but
25 with the exercise that arises under 66B, then you could
1 have gone through all the documents which they have.
2 MR. MORAN: Yes, your Honour. We did, of course, file a
3 66B motion.
4 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: So you could have gone through that
5 and found whatever they had and if this is one of the
6 things which you have gone through, I think that might
7 have satisfied the provision.
8 MR. MORAN: The only other thing I would suggest to the
9 court would be this: several witnesses have been asked:
10 "Did you give statements to anybody else or did you
11 talk to anybody else?" If those statements -- if there
12 are statements from those witnesses that are contained
13 in that book, arguably that would be Rule 68,
14 exculpatory material, as it may affect the credibility
15 of prosecution witnesses or prosecution evidence.
16 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: That depends if it is exculpatory.
17 It is not merely if someone spoke or wrote a letter to
19 MR. MORAN: No, your Honour. What I have in mind is if
20 someone says "I did not make any other statement" and
21 there is another statement, that goes right to the
22 credibility of the witness.
23 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: I think we are even expanding the
24 meaning of "statement" too much, as if what anybody said to
25 anybody, to any family friend, is a statement with
1 respect to what we are going through. It's not
2 necessarily so.
3 MR. MORAN: Yes, your Honour.
4 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Yes. Let's hear what you intend to
5 put in the circumstances.
6 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honour, it's very difficult for me to
7 respond to what the Prosecutor has just told us unless I
8 can see the document that she was holding there, and
9 I would like to have an opportunity to take a look at
10 that time for just a moment, if I can.
11 JUDGE JAN: Surely, but as Miss McHenry is saying --
12 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.
13 JUDGE JAN: As Ms. McHenry has said, the Prosecution
14 indicated to you these two books in at least January
15 1997. Why don't you look at those -- why don't you
16 accept it from her and go through the book and see what
17 the statements contained in that book were?
18 MR. ACKERMAN: Until Ms. McHenry made that statement this
19 morning I had no idea they had filed such a document.
20 It was just one of the things I have not yet got
21 around to reading in this case. So my colleagues may
22 have been fully aware of that. I was not. I
23 admit should have been. I guess what disturbs me at
24 this point is in connection with several witnesses that
25 have testified since I have arrived here, either me or
1 one or more of my colleagues have enquired of them
2 whether they have made any other formal written
3 statements to an organisation such as the Association of
4 Detainees, and many of them have denied having done so.
5 I think on more than one occasion since I have been here
6 the Prosecutor has been asked to state to the court
7 whether or not they had knowledge of any other
8 statements given by such witnesses to the Association of
9 Detainees or any other organisation, and my recollection
10 is that on each occasion the Prosecutor has told the
11 court that they had no knowledge of any other statements
12 given by the witness, and had no knowledge that any
13 statements had been given to an organisation such as the
14 Association of Detainees. Now I am not capable of
15 making more than that kind of broad general statement at
16 this point because I have not seen the book. If the
17 only witness whose statement appears in that book is the
18 one seated before us today, then I have very little to
19 complain about, because they have brought now today to
20 our attention that that statement exists in that book.
21 In terms of my further cross-examination of this
22 witness, I think it's important that I be provided with
23 at least a copy of that portion of the book which
24 contains the statement that he made, so that I can make
25 a determination whether there is any material in it that
1 I might be able to use for impeachment purposes. So
2 that's kind of where I stand with regard to that right
3 now. I must say that I'm -- I was surprised this
4 morning -- maybe some of my colleagues were not -- to
5 learn of the existence of such a book.
6 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: I suppose it depends largely on the
7 extent of researches into what has happened since then,
8 because if counsel has been very conversant with what
9 has been going on, they might have known about the
10 existence of the books, irrespective of whether the
11 Prosecution knew of it or not.
12 MS. McHENRY: The Prosecution does not -- is happy to give a
13 copy -- to let the Defence counsel use this book during
14 his cross-examination. I will tell defence counsel
15 that it is only in Serbo-Croatian and we do not have a
16 translation, but possibly co-counsel who is there --
17 I also just want to clarify the record. I believe what
18 the Prosecution has stated is that any statements that
19 it has received from the Association, that the
20 Prosecution has received,, have been given. It may
21 well be that certain witnesses have given other
22 statements, be they to the media, government agencies
23 and things like that that we just don't know. So
24 please do not take anything the Prosecution has said to
25 state there were no other statements made. I believe
1 what we stated was that the Association had not provided
2 us any statements that we had not turned over to the
3 Defence, just so that's clear. I'm happy to let
4 Defence counsel use this book or maybe I can -- a copy
5 can be made later on, if you request also.
6 MR. ACKERMAN: Well, your Honour, since it is in
7 Serbo-Croatian there's very little use I can make of it
8 right at the moment. I would ask leave to have it made
9 available during the next break so that I can have
10 someone look at it for me and tell me what this
11 statement says. I see the statement.
12 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Has the Prosecution a translation of
13 that statement in?
14 MS. McHENRY: No, your Honour. In all frankness it was
15 only -- I don't know that we were even aware that this
16 statement was in there but after this issue came up
17 yesterday, we found it. So we do not have a
18 translation. I did quickly have someone look at it
19 this morning and give me a brief summary but we don't
20 have a translation.
21 JUDGE JAN: Does his name occur in this book?
22 MS. McHENRY: Yes, your Honour.
23 JUDGE JAN: What protection can be --
24 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: You will be the first person to
25 translate the statement.
1 MR. ACKERMAN: Yes, I agree. Your Honours, the first thing
2 I notice as I look at this is this seems to be a
3 regularly published book, not some kind of a private
4 publication. It appears to be a book that might be
5 available in book stores, libraries, things of that
6 nature; in other words, a public document. The other
7 thing I notice is that this witness' name appears
8 publicly in this book without the protection that has
9 been requested here in this court. I don't know if
10 that's significant or not, but that's the case.
11 MS. McHENRY: May I -- I'm sorry.
12 MR. ACKERMAN: Go ahead.
13 MS. McHENRY: May I just speak to that? It is the case that
14 with a number of witnesses the protection they request
15 is that they are testifying here as witnesses, not that
16 they were victims of Celebici camp and, for instance,
17 there are a number of witnesses whose name appears in
18 the indictment, who nonetheless have requested
19 protection, and what they are seeking is not protection
20 from what happened to them in Celebici or their
21 identities, but their status as a witness. So the fact
22 that there is a book in which it is made public that
23 they are a witness in Celebici -- a victim in Celebici,
24 the Prosecution does not believe would mean they are not
25 entitled to protection. It is the case -- it is the
1 Prosecution's understanding that this book is
2 available. In fact, in our January filing in which we
3 mentioned several books, we indicated that both of them
4 are books that are publicly -- as far as we know are
5 publicly available, and we consider them public material
6 rather than statements or anything like that. Maybe it
7 would be best if I can have -- I will request that
8 someone from the Prosecution office come in and get this
9 and I'll make copies of the witness' statement so that
10 all Defence counsel may have them during the break.
11 MR. ACKERMAN: I think that's fine. I would -- I guess I'm
12 about to have a conversation with Ms. McHenry that
13 doesn't need to take place on the record. I'll have
14 that conversation during the break. In any event, I am
15 prepared to go forward with my cross-examination
16 excluding anything I might want to do with regard to
17 this book, and if I finish my cross-examination prior to
18 our morning break, then I would ask leave to have this
19 witness brought back for additional cross-examination
20 after I've had a chance to look at the statement if
21 I think it's appropriate; otherwise not.
22 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: That's all right, because if you
23 really want to impeach him you could not do so until you
24 have seen what the statement is about.
25 MR. ACKERMAN: Yes.
1 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: So you can continue your
3 MR. ACKERMAN: Thank you, your Honour.
4 Mr. M, I would like to talk to you a bit more about
5 the memoires that you have written regarding your
6 experiences; okay?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. I want to have you tell us if in connection with writing
9 those memoires that you focused primarily or exclusively
10 on your experiences in Celebici camp and in Musala, or
11 if it went broader into all of your experiences prior to
12 and during the war in Bosnia?
13 A. If you recall, I said that the memoires were something
14 I was writing for myself, something that I do not wish
15 to publish at least for the time being, and to satisfy
16 your curiosity I will tell you that I'm covering the
17 period from 1992, that is before the outbreak of the
18 conflict, until the end. I just mentioned this by
19 chance, that I was writing these memoires. I said that
20 I didn't know whether they would ever be published. If
21 they are, they will be available. I'm talking about my
22 experiences and all the events that happened from
23 January 1992 to the end of 1995.
24 Q. Did you base these writings strictly on your own memory
25 and your own experiences, or did you conduct some
1 additional research and use additional materials to help
2 you in writing these memoires?
3 A. They have to do with my personal experiences, my
4 personal reflections about the situation, about the war
5 itself. I didn't use any other material. Memoires
6 are memoires.
7 Q. Prior to May of 1992 you, of course, had learned a great
8 deal about what was going on in the former Yugoslavia
9 and specifically in Bosnia, had you not?
10 A. Yes, from the mass media.
11 Q. And from discussions with other persons?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. You learned a great deal about what was going on by
14 watching television, I take it?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. And that primarily was the television from Belgrade?
17 A. No, it was Sarajevo television, because I was living in
18 the environs of Sarajevo.
19 Q. Did there not come a time when you could no longer
20 receive the Sarajevo television but only the Belgrade
22 A. Yes, but at that time I could not watch television,
23 because there was no electricity. We couldn't watch
24 television at all. Electricity was cut off.
25 Q. Was it things that you had learned from television that
1 made it clear to you that it might be a good idea for
2 you to arm yourselves, the citizens of Bradina?
3 A. No. I said that I was watching Sarajevo television.
4 Q. Were you watching television from TV Srna, from the
5 Republika Srpska?
6 A. No, the official TV Sarajevo.
7 Q. What was it that occurred prior to your acquiring a
8 weapon and other Serbs in Bradina acquiring weapons that
9 caused you to believe that that might be necessary?
10 A. The political situation itself in the Republic,
11 especially the political situation in the municipality
12 of Konjic, where the Serb population held less than 20
13 per cent of the share, total share of the population.
14 I don't know the exact figure. The people who were
15 fleeing from the town of Konjic and from other parts
16 where they were in the minority, so that even before the
17 attack on Bradina itself, people were intimidated where
18 they were in the minority. They fled from town. They
19 came to Bradina. They fled to Sarajevo, fearing the
20 worst, and learning from this experience of others,
21 I had a dilemma whether I should take my wife and
22 children away from Bradina or whether I should stay.
23 Thus believing that a conflict could break out,
24 I stayed. At least I didn't believe the war could
25 occur in the way it did and that is why I stayed;
1 otherwise I would have left.
2 Q. I take it you knew about the various speeches and
3 statements being made by Slobodan Milosevic regarding
4 his ideas about creating a Greater Serbia?
5 A. No. I am familiar with that idea, but I personally did
6 not support such an idea.
7 Q. Prior to the problems that developed in
8 Bosnia-Herzegovina in 1991 and 1992, there had been, had
9 there not, what might be described as a peaceful
10 co-existence among the peoples who inhabited that region
11 regardless of their ethnicity?
12 A. Yes. I have already said that before the conflict I was
13 one of the organisers who tried to find people of
14 goodwill who were willing to negotiate with the villages
15 in which the Muslims were in the majority, and I formed
16 such a committee, and I said yesterday that I went three
17 times to three different villages to try and find ways
18 of avoiding an armed conflict, to try and find a
19 solution at least in our part of the country so that the
20 tensions would be eased.
21 Q. Prior to all these difficulties in the late 1980s, the
22 people living in Bosnia-Herzegovina and in the area
23 where you lived were enjoying a pretty good standard of
24 living, were they not?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. It was very much a European standard of living. You
2 had automobiles, telephones, television, a good society
3 to live in; would you agree with that?
4 MS. McHENRY: Your Honour, I am going to respectfully
5 object. I have not objected up to now but I am going
6 to object as to relevancy.
7 MR. ACKERMAN: Well, your Honour, I think the relevancy of
8 this was established by the Prosecution when they called
9 Ms. Calic. I am simply exploring many of the issues she
10 testified about. I think the Prosecution has made it
11 relevant to the court by calling Miss Calic that the
12 Tribunal cannot really understand the ramifications of
13 this case without understanding the background of the
14 conflict and that's what I'm pursuing and I think it's
15 totally appropriate.
16 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Yes, but this witness did not give any
17 evidence to that. What I thought you were pursuing was
18 the fact of the question you asked. What made him
19 decide to arm himself? I think that was what you were
21 MR. ACKERMAN: Of course that's what I'm pursuing and that's
22 what I'm trying to get to, yes.
23 Did you ever become -- I'm not sure you answered
24 my last question and that was with regard to the
25 standard of living that you had. It was a good
1 standard of living prior to the outbreak of these
2 problems, was it not?
3 A. Relatively speaking, yes.
4 Q. Did there come a time before the residents of Bradina
5 decided to arm themselves that you became aware, for
6 instance, of the events that had been occurring in the
7 Krajina region of Croatia?
8 A. No. I said since about February of 1992 we had no
9 possibility of watching television because the
10 electricity had been cut off.
11 Q. Did you ever learn about the activities, for instance of
12 a man named Milan Babic in Knin in the Krajina area?
13 A. No.
14 Q. You knew, of course, that at some point Bradina became a
15 pretty strategic location with regard to the war that
16 had broken out in early 1992?
17 A. Strategic? I can say that Bradina was a place where
18 people organised themselves. There was no organisation
19 from outside. The people organised within so that they
20 would try in a peaceful way to preserve peace. They
21 tried that, but it was -- they organised it -- they
22 organised themselves in order to try to protect their
23 homes and their mothers and wives. There was no
24 strategic importance for anybody but ourselves.
25 Q. You, of course, understand that Bradina was located on
1 the main highway and the main railroad from Sarajevo to
2 the coast, to the Adriatic; correct?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. You do know that in April of 1992 Sarajevo was placed
5 under siege and shelling began of Sarajevo?
6 A. I knew that there were problems in Sarajevo at that
8 Q. And you knew that Sarajevo was under siege and the
9 problem of simple supply --
10 A. No. I don't know what ... no, I did not know that. I
11 don't know what siege you are referring to, not even
13 Q. You don't know that Sarajevo was fired upon by Serb
14 artillery almost daily for more than two years?
15 A. I know that there was a war going on in Sarajevo and
16 that there was shooting going on.
17 Q. Do you know that the United Nations was trying to keep
18 the airport in Sarajevo open so that the citizens of
19 Sarajevo could be supplied with food and medicine and
20 things of that nature?
21 A. I'm not -- I don't understand the question. May I ask
22 what period of time you are referring to, because I have
23 to remind you that I was arrested in May of 1992 and
24 I was in the Celebici camp, and I don't think that
25 whatever you've mentioned here in Sarajevo and the siege
1 and the attempts of the UN to provide food and medicine,
2 all this was happening following that, so I'm not
3 familiar with any of these events that you're referring
4 to, because I was in prison at that time.
5 Q. Well, you do know this: you do know that Bradina had
6 tunnels on both sides of Bradina that could be used very
7 effectively to close off both the railroad and the
8 highway simply by bombing those tunnels? You knew that?
9 A. I knew that and this was done. Tunnels were closed off
10 on both sides. From the side of Konjic I know the
11 person's name, the person who did it. I can tell
12 that. On the other side it was also closed by putting
13 there earth. So we had no opportunity -- we had no
14 possibility of going either in the direction of Sarajevo
15 or in the direction of Konjic from Bradina.
16 Q. You knew, of course, did you not, that it was a major
17 interest of the government of Bosnia-Herzegovina at that
18 time to try to keep that road open so that Sarajevo
19 could be supplied with food, medicines, things of that
20 nature; correct?
21 A. Yes. I knew that. I also don't know if you know,
22 because I personally was on one of these barricades, and
23 except for a search of the passengers who were passing
24 through, and between the two attacks on Bradina, people
25 who were passing through from Konjic who needed medical
1 help in Sarajevo, they were let through, and they were
2 going to Sarajevo and coming back. So the territory
3 through Bradina was not blocked, but there was a ramp,
4 and with the regular security measures, the control.
5 So the road through Bradina was never blocked in the
6 sense of 100 per cent blockade. There were checkpoints
7 for security reasons, for fear of weapons coming through
8 and for fear of attack, of sabotage attacks.
9 Throughout this period the road was open and passage was
11 Q. You knew, did you not, that the interests involved there
12 were the army of Bosnia-Herzegovina wanted to keep the
13 road open to supply Sarajevo, and the Bosnian Serb Army
14 wanted to keep the road closed in order to cut off
15 Sarajevo. You knew that was the main mission of both
16 sides of the conflict at that point; right?
17 A. I don't know what either side wanted. I know that the
18 army of the Republika Srpska had not put a blockade in
19 Bradina. These were people, local people who had
20 organised themselves, and there were people who were
21 fleeing to Bradina. Based on their bad experiences,
22 people wanted to protect themselves. There were no
23 orders on the Republika Srpska army. We were organised
24 ourselves. We organised self-defence.
25 Q. Well, you know, do you not, that the reason that Bradina
1 was attacked was an effort to keep the road open, that
2 that was what the purpose of that attack was?
3 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: I'm surprised you are asking so many
4 policing questions which this witness will not be able
5 to answer. These are things which go into the control
6 of the areas. He has given you an answer.
7 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honour, if he doesn't know the answers,
8 he is perfectly free to say he doesn't know and I will
9 go on to something else.
10 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: So there's no point. If he may not
11 know, why ask him?
12 MR. ACKERMAN: You recall my last question. Do you have
13 any knowledge of that?
14 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: It's not necessary.
15 MR. ACKERMAN: All right. When the battle of Bradina
16 started you told us that you were manning your position
17 with an automatic weapon?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. And shots were being fired on both sides; correct?
20 A. In the wider area of Bradina, yes.
21 Q. And you actually fired your weapon?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. A number of times?
24 A. Several times.
25 Q. So that when it became clear to you that the forces
1 trying to defend Bradina were seriously out numbered and
2 that you should surrender, you surrendered, carrying
3 with you a weapon that it was obvious had been fired?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Following that surrender, and I'm just going to go very
6 briefly over this, because it has been largely covered,
7 immediately following the surrender, prior to your being
8 loaded on trucks, you've told us that you were beaten
9 rather severely over a fairly long period of time;
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. And, as a result of that beating, you were bleeding?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Your arm was severely injured?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. And I think you even still have scars, marks on your arm
17 from the injuries you received at that time?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. You were beaten to the point where you were beaten to
20 the ground at least ten times prior to your getting on
21 the truck?
22 A. I cannot tell the exact number, but I did fall several
23 times. It could have been ten; it could have been even
24 more, but I did fall to the ground on a number of times,
25 but I did not count.
1 Q. When you finally made it to the truck, you became
2 unconscious for a period of time?
3 A. Not completely unconscious; semi-unconscious, dazed,
5 Q. You have told us about your arrival at Celebici and your
6 having been confined first in Tunnel Number 9. I want
7 to ask you just a couple of questions about that; okay?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. From the time you were placed in Tunnel Number 9 until
10 the time you were transferred to Hangar Number 9,
11 I believe it to be your testimony that during that seven
12 day period you were only subjected to one beating; is
13 that correct?
14 A. Once while being put into the tunnel and then the second
15 time I was brought out and beaten, yes, so in total
17 Q. I'm talking about from the time when you were put in
18 until the time you were taken out, during that seven day
19 period you were taken out and beaten on one occasion;
20 that is correct, isn't it?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Did you say that the way you were all arranged in that
23 tunnel was that you were sitting facing each other?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Isn't it true that that tunnel is entirely too narrow
1 for two people to sit across from each other and face
2 each other?
3 A. I think that you probably know the measurements of the
4 tunnel. We were facing each other. So that would
5 mean we were leaning against the walls. We would have
6 our legs pulled up and we would face one another.
7 Q. Was that the situation during the entire time you were
8 in Tunnel 9?
9 A. Yes, the whole time we had to lean against the wall and
10 our knees up, pulled up.
11 Q. You described for the -- I want to now go to the time
12 after you went to Hangar 6. You described for the
13 Tribunal yesterday an incident in which your hand was
14 burned with a knife. Do you recall that incident?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Would you be able to show all of us and show the court
17 the scars on your hand that are left from that burning?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Could I perhaps ask your Honours that the ELMO be
20 positioned in such a way that he can put his hand on the
21 ELMO and we can see by that method the scars that remain
22 on his hand. Can you see your monitor?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. You see your hand on the monitor?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. All right. Thank you. Have you ever told anyone --
2 let me do it this way. No. I'll ask this question.
3 Have you ever told anyone that there was a time while
4 you were in Hangar 6 that you reached outside underneath
5 the wall of Hangar 6 and picked grass to eat?
6 A. No. Personally I did not. I said that I ate grass
7 after I would come out, after I would go to the
8 toilet. I could not do it the way you describe it,
9 because I was on the side where there was concrete; in
10 other words, where there was the parking area.
11 Q. I want to direct your attention now to the incident you
12 have described regarding the two brothers Dordic. You
13 know the incident that I'm talking about; correct?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. The incident you described yesterday involving the
16 sexual matters?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. What you've told us yesterday is you don't really
19 remember the guard or guards that were involved in that,
20 and I just want to suggest to you that the guard
21 involved in that was a fellow by the name of Osman
22 Dedic. Does that refresh your memory?
23 A. Not really.
24 Q. You also told us yesterday about a detainee by the name
25 of Bosko Samoukovic, and I want to direct your attention
1 now to that situation; okay?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. With regard to what it was that caused the death of
4 Mr. Samoukovic and when it was Mr. Samoukovic died, I take
5 it that you would rely on what Dr. Relja might know about
7 A. No. My statement is based on personal experience, what
8 I saw with respect to that incident. What I said is
9 what I personally saw, not what other people said or
10 through somebody else's experience. It was my own
11 experience. I had access to -- I personally had access
12 to what was going on, visual access to what was going on
13 at that time regarding Mr. Samoukovic.
14 Q. What I'm really talking about is after the time that
15 Mr. Samoukovic was removed from Hangar 6 and taken to the
16 infirmary in Building 22. You would have no personal
17 knowledge about what happened after he was removed from
18 Hangar 6, would you?
19 A. Yes. I don't know what happened there. I only know
20 what happened in the hangar and how he was beaten up,
21 how he -- and I saw that with my own eyes.
22 Q. For what happened after he was removed from Hangar 6 and
23 taken to Building 22, you would rely on what Dr. Relja
24 might have said about his condition and how it was that
25 he might have died; correct?
1 MS. McHENRY: I would object to this. This witness doesn't
2 have to rely on anything that anyone else has said.
3 MR. ACKERMAN: I accept that. I think that's a correct
4 objection. The last question I want to ask you, the
5 last area I want to talk to you about, involves the
6 first visit to Celebici of the International Committee
7 of the Red Cross. Do you remember about when that
8 visit was?
9 A. No, I don't recall the date, but I can say approximately
10 about a month and a half or two after my imprisonment.
11 Q. You know, do you not, that about two weeks prior to that
12 visit Mr. Landzo had left Celebici and was no longer
14 A. No. I don't know that.
15 Q. That's all I have. Thank you.
16 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Any re-examination?
17 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honour, may I just remind the court that
18 during the break I will have an opportunity to see the
19 statement this morning and I may have some additional
20 questions I may want to ask the witness after having an
21 opportunity to see that, but other than that I've
22 completed my cross-examination.
23 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Yes. Thank you.
24 Re-examination by Ms. McHenry.
25 MS. McHENRY: Two questions, your Honour. You reported that
1 Mr. Mucic at some point insulted you. Do you remember
2 any details about what happened or where?
3 A. Yes. During one of the visits to the camp Mucic came in
4 and it was like a review. He started up on the
5 right-hand side. He would talk to somebody. He
6 talked to the ones that he knew, I guess. He knew my
7 brother personally. He came to the place where my
8 brother and I were. He asked about my and his release
9 and he said: "He's a Cetnik. He'll never be
10 released. He'll be killed".
11 Q. Just so I can clarify, was it your brother who asked
12 about your release and was it Mucic who said: "He is a
13 Cetnik. He'll never be released. He'll be killed"?
14 A. Yes, my brother asked. I did not dare ask and I did
15 not want to ask.
16 Q. Was it Mucic who gave the response?
17 A. Yes. He gave the response and if I can just add, your
18 Honours, in conversation with the witness I found out
19 this and if needed this person is prepared to provide
20 this information.
21 JUDGE JAN: Ms. McHenry, is this clarification arising out
22 of cross-examination or are you bringing in additional
24 MS. McHENRY: I believe it was direct clarification of an
25 issue raised by the Defence.
1 JUDGE JAN: What was the clarification there?
2 MS. McHENRY: The clarification was what exactly happened.
3 MS. McHENRY: Your Honour, I --
4 MR. GREAVES: I do apologise for interrupting.
5 MS. McHENRY: I believe when Defence Counsel raises a new
6 issue the Prosecution is allowed to ask the
7 circumstances surrounding that. I think this is very
8 fair re-examination, if I am naming it correctly. Let
9 me go on to my next question.
10 MR. GREAVES: I have an objection on the basis that one of
11 the answers which is given at page 32, line 13, appears
12 to indicate that, in fact, this witness is relying on
13 something related to him by somebody completely
14 different: "In conversation with the witness". I have
15 the usual objection that it appears the proper
16 foundation for introducing what appears to be hearsay
17 evidence has not been laid. I invite the Prosecution
18 to do it. If it is unable to do it, I object to the
19 admissibility of this evidence.
20 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: I thought you understood that the
21 additional answer he gave was not an answer which was
22 directed to him.
23 MS. McHENRY: Your Honour, if I may clarify that -- I mean,
24 I have to answer your Honours I don't know. So I will
25 be happy to, as Mr. Greaves has requested, clarify this.
1 Sir, is this something you yourself heard Mr. Mucic
2 say, and, if not, who told you he said it and when?
3 A. You mean regarding my release or my brother's?
4 Q. The conversation you indicated where Mr. Mucic said with
5 reference to you that you would not be released for the
6 reasons he gave, did you yourself hear that or did
7 someone tell you that?
8 A. No, I personally heard that. This happened in the
9 hangar. My brother was lying next to me. I was next
10 to him. He asked for both himself and myself and these
11 were his exact words, that I would never be released
12 because I was a Cetnik.
13 Q. Thank you. My last question, sir: you indicated in
14 cross-examination that in the very first period of time
15 when you were at the camp you received some indication
16 leading you to believe that Rale may have been
17 commander. What could you observe or learn about the
18 role of Rale in Celebici, if any, after that very first
20 A. I think that at the time when we were brought to
21 Celebici -- this is my personal opinion -- Rale was
22 somebody who was in charge, maybe not the camp
23 commander, but somebody who was in charge, who had a
24 group. I clarified this yesterday. When we were
25 brought off the truck, the first three were beaten, and
1 he said: "Don't beat the people". That's what I tried
2 to use to get off the truck. However, I saw, as I was
3 climbing off the truck, that he was getting into the car
4 and then he left and then I received beatings.
5 Q. Sir, my question is: you have testified about that
6 first -- that very first period. After that very first
7 period, what did you observe or learn about whether or
8 not Rale continued to have any kind of role in the camp,
9 after that first period that you have already testified
11 A. No, after transfer to the hangar I did not see Rale and
12 I don't know what his activities were. That means only
13 when I was brought to the Celebici, the first time I was
14 brought there.
15 Q. No further questions.
16 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: The witness can now stand aside. Do
17 you have another witness?
18 MS. McHENRY: Yes, your Honour. We do have another witness
19 who is here to start. The only thing that I would
20 advise your Honours of is pursuant to a joint request
21 that your Honours had granted I believe some months ago
22 this witness is scheduled for a medical examination.
23 I have been informed that that examination is supposed
24 to take place this afternoon. At least one possibility
25 is that we would take our break now such that the
1 Defence counsel would be able to at least receive a
2 verbal translation of this witness, what was in the
3 book. It is only half a page. Then, if necessary,
4 this witness could be recalled immediately such that his
5 medical examination will not be postponed and so that he can
6 leave as scheduled. That's a suggestion for your
7 Honour, but if you do not want to do that, we have
8 another witness here.
9 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: It will be convenient. I think what
10 we will do is we will rise now and come back at 11.45
11 and then take until 1 o'clock when we will rise for
12 lunch. I am sure you should be able to have the
13 translation done.
14 (11.05 am)
15 (Short break)
16 (11.45 am)
17 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Yes, Mr. Ackerman?
18 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honours, I have no further questions of
19 the witness. I don't know about any other Defence
20 Counsel, but I have completed my cross.
21 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: That's all for the witness. I think
22 we can discharge him, subject to his medical
23 examination. Your next witness then.
24 MS. McHENRY: Your Honours, the Prosecution would now be
25 calling Mr. B. Maybe while he is being -- while the
1 usher is getting him, I can raise another issue just as
2 to scheduling that I have previously discussed with
3 Defence Counsel for Mr. Mucic about the issue of the
4 Prosecution Exhibit I believe 155 and the handwriting.
5 Your Honours had indicated that you would like us
6 to file our submissions by Wednesday. The Prosecution
7 is going to file its submission by Wednesday.
8 Mr. Greaves had indicated that he might now wish to at
9 least briefly review ours before filing his response, a
10 proposal to which we do not have any objection. If
11 I may, I might respectfully suggest to the court and
12 find out if it is acceptable, whether or not if the
13 Prosecution files its response by Wednesday, as directed
14 by the court, if the Defence of Mr. Mucic files their
15 response by either Friday or Monday, and then if there's
16 any argument that your Honours desire, that could be
17 heard immediately upon our resuming court in the
18 beginning of August. That would also give the
19 Prosecution the opportunity to have Mr. Grant Niemann,
20 our lead counsel, present for the arguments at least.
21 That's what we would be requesting. I have talked with
22 Mr. Greaves about this and he's in full agreement with
24 MR. GREAVES: My learned friend speaks for me on this matter
25 and she accurately reflects the conversation we have
1 had. It is, of course, subject to your Honours'
2 decision. If you want to do it in some other way,
3 that's a matter, of course, for your Honours, but we
4 hope that that suggestion will find favour with all of
5 your Honours this morning.
6 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: When we have received your written
7 submissions, then we'll fix an appropriate date when
8 perhaps argument should be heard.
9 MR. GREAVES: Thank you very much.
10 MS. McHENRY: Your Honour, your clerk has correctly reminded
11 me that I wish to on behalf of the Prosecution to withdraw
12 Mr. B's request for a screen separating him from the
13 accused. He has determined that he no longer believes
14 that is necessary. So we have informed your personnel,
15 but not your Honours. Please excuse us. We now
16 withdraw the request for a separate screen separating
17 the accused. He continues to wish his identity,
18 including his name, face and identifying
19 characteristics, be protected from the media and, in
20 fact, I would just, if I may, inform Defence Counsel
21 that this witness, as well as the next -- not the next
22 witness but the witness after next, Mr. D, are both very,
23 very sensitive about disclosure to the public or media,
24 and so I would just ask that Defence Counsel, if there's
25 any question in their mind about whether or not a
1 question or answer -- that they ask for private session,
2 and I'll be doing the same.
3 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Thank you very much. Invite the
4 witness now. Let's start.
5 (Witness enters court)
6 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Let him take the oath.
7 Witness B (sworn)
8 Examined by Ms. McHenry
9 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Yes, you can continue.
10 MS. McHENRY: Thank you, your Honour. Sir, good morning.
11 Sir, am I correct that you have requested that your name
12 and identity not be released to the public or the media?
13 A. (In interpretation): Yes.
14 Q. You will thus be known as Mr. B. Do you understand
16 A. Yes. Fine.
17 Q. Do you understand if I or anyone else asks you a
18 question and you believe that the answer might tend to
19 reveal your identity, you can request the judges to give
20 your answer in private session?
21 A. Yes. Thank you.
22 Q. With the usher's assistance I would now like to show
23 you, sir, on a piece of paper a name, and can you
24 confirm that this is, in fact, your name, without saying
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Thank you. Mr. B, how old are you at the present time?
3 A. I am 36.
4 Q. What is your ethnic background?
5 A. By nationality I'm a Serb.
6 Q. Where were you living in the beginning of 1992?
7 A. At the beginning of 1992 I was living in Konjic.
8 Q. Do you mean Konjic town?
9 A. I'm thinking of Konjic town.
10 Q. Did there come a time when you left the town of Konjic?
11 A. I left the town of Konjic on 17th April. I went to a
12 nearby village. The war had started in
13 Bosnia-Herzegovina. There were hardly any supplies.
14 I had one and a half year old child. I couldn't find
15 the necessary food for my child, so I went to a village
16 hoping that the supplies would be better there. That
17 was the period when I left Konjic. If you're thinking
18 of all the times that I left Konjic, I left Konjic
19 during my studies, when I went to Sarajevo, but I don't
20 suppose that's relevant.
21 Q. So in May and June of 1992 where were you living at that
23 A. In May and June 1992 I was living in the village of
24 Brdjani, near Konjic.
25 Q. Did there come a time when there was military action in
2 A. Yes. Military operations occurred in Brdjani. The
3 Muslims attacked our village. I can say that I didn't
4 see the Muslim troops, but when the artillery attack
5 started on the village there was a shower of shells and
6 anti-aircraft grenades and so we all scattered. The
7 attack lasted for maybe two days roughly.
8 Q. Did you participate in any defence of the village?
9 A. I'm afraid I don't quite understand the question,
10 because nobody took part in the defence of that village,
11 and therefore I didn't either. There was no organised
12 defence of the village.
13 Q. Were you armed during this time?
14 A. No, I was never armed.
15 Q. What did you do during the attack on Brdjani? Can you
16 just briefly describe what happened?
17 A. I ran for my life. That would be my briefest
18 response. If you want me to give you a more detailed
19 answer, I can say that suddenly out of the blue a shower
20 of shells fell on Brdjani. There were bullets flying
21 all over, hitting our houses, and so we all ran for our
22 lives into the nearby woods, and I think that perhaps we
23 were lucky that there were such thick woods in the
24 immediate surroundings, so we managed to escape there
25 and hide.
1 Q. Where did you go next?
2 A. From that forest we managed to reach the village of
3 Bradina. I walked for about two days, I think all of
4 two days, to cover less than 10 km., because the forest
5 was constantly being shelled, hit by grenades and fired
6 upon, so that we could move with difficulty. We went
7 in small groups as we happened to form them, and we
8 somehow reached this village. My estimate is that it
9 was no more than 10 km. away. The village of Bradina
10 at that time had still not been attacked. Before the
11 war the majority population was Serb, so that we thought
12 that we would be safer there.
13 There were some reports that we heard of in
14 Brdjani, even though reports were highly unreliable and
15 there was a lot of misinformation, and this proved to be
16 misinformation, that the women and children of the
17 village of Bradina would be evacuated through the
18 mediation of the Red Cross and they would be 100 per
19 cent safe, and this didn't happen, and of course all of
20 us who had children, we wanted to save them. That's
21 why we all headed for Bradina.
22 Q. When was it then approximately, if you know, that the
23 attack on Brdjani happened and you then spent two days
24 going to Bradina?
25 A. When talking about dates, I mean, I'm not very good at
1 history, and I shall try and be as precise as possible,
2 but please bear with me when dates are involved.
3 I think the attack on Brdjani took place between 10th
4 and 15th May. I'm not quite sure regarding the exact
6 Q. After you went to Bradina, how long did you stay in
8 A. I stayed in Bradina I don't recollect exactly. A few
9 days, maybe five or six days.
10 Q. Then what happened?
11 A. After that, when the attack on Brdjani was over, I could
12 climb to a nearby hill from Bradina to see whether
13 Brdjani was still exposed to shelling, and when I saw
14 that calm had returned, I took my wife and child and we
15 returned to our home in Brdjani, and we continued living
16 in our family house in Brdjani.
17 Q. What happened after you returned to Brdjani?
18 A. After I returned to Brdjani I stayed to live there in my
19 house. In the village there were very few people
20 left. A lot of people had fled. Some stayed on in
21 Bradina, thinking it was safer. I personally didn't
22 agree with that, because I saw that Bradina really had
23 no defence against the Muslims, that the people were
24 extremely disorganised, even though they had some
25 infantry weapons, but there was no safety there. So
1 I returned to Brdjani and I stayed there until I was
2 imprisoned in the camp. I simply stayed in the
3 village. I didn't move around anywhere except maybe a
4 couple of dozen metres around my house, because it was
5 dangerous anyway to move around.
6 Q. Can you please tell us exactly what happened such that
7 were then imprisoned in Celebici? Can you please
8 describe to us exactly how that happened?
9 A. After Bradina fell, not the first or second day, but
10 maybe a certain period of time elapsed and just one man
11 came, a Muslim. I don't know what his official
12 function was. I think he was in the Muslim military
13 police. His surname was Pavo. I have forgotten his
14 first name. I know him -- I knew him very well from
15 before the war. He read out a list of names of all
16 those people who had to report allegedly for an
17 informative interview in the nearby village of
18 Podorasac. Actually the list included the names of all
19 the men, absolutely all the men from the village of
20 Brdjani. Some had stayed behind in Bradina and they
21 were brought with the people from Bradina to the camp,
22 but all the others who were there were on the list; at
23 least I think so. So that as soon as he read out the
24 list the order was that we move immediately. We had
25 absolutely no choice. Because of our families, we had
1 to go to this village of Podorasac, although we presumed
2 roughly what was lying in wait for us and it proved
3 true, because in the village of Podorasac we were --
4 Q. Can I ask you: at this time were you told what would
5 happen to you after the informative interview?
6 A. No.
7 Q. Please continue with what happened when you went to the
8 village of Podorasac?
9 A. When we reached the village of Podorasac, we were
10 ordered to board one or two trucks. The trucks were
11 closed. We still didn't know where we were being
12 taken. Nobody had told us, but after some fifteen or
13 20 minutes -- I don't know exactly -- we were ordered to
14 get off. We saw where we had come. We had arrived at
15 a former military facility in Celebici, which was later
16 used as a camp for prisoners. We got there. We were
17 ordered to get off.
18 Q. Let me stop you for a minute here. Can you tell us, if
19 you know, the approximate date then that you were
20 brought to Celebici?
21 A. I think it was in the second half of June.
22 Q. Just to get an overview, can you just tell us now how
23 long you stayed in Celebici? When was it that you
24 finally left Celebici?
25 A. I left Celebici in the second half of August.
1 Q. Going back now to when you arrived at Celebici, do you
2 remember about what time of day it was and do you
3 remember about how many persons were brought to Celebici
4 at the same time as you?
5 A. I can only say roughly how many people there were.
6 I think about between 50 and 60 men were brought
7 there. That's my estimate. We were brought there
8 somewhere around midday, around 12 o'clock, maybe 1 in
9 the afternoon. I don't remember exactly, because the
10 man who came and informed us to go to Podorasac, he must
11 have come somewhere around 10.00 in the morning. Then
12 it took us an hour to get to Podorasac, so that must
13 have been 11.00. So it must have been between 12.00
14 and 1.00 in the afternoon. I don't know the exact
16 Q. Between the time you were brought to Podorasac and then
17 you were transported to Celebici, during this time, in
18 other words the time before you got to the camp, can you
19 tell us whether or not you were physically mistreated?
20 I am not asking you for details. I am just asking at
21 the time you were arrested or while you were being
22 transported to the camp were you mistreated physically?
23 A. I was not physically mistreated. I don't know whether
24 other people were, because this was a large group of
25 people, and I couldn't have insight into what happened
1 to each and every one of them. Whether somebody got
2 beaten or not, I can't say.
3 Q. Going to when you arrived at Celebici, can you please
4 tell us what happened when you arrived at the camp?
5 A. When we arrived at the camp we were ordered to get off
6 the trucks and to line up against a wall about 20 metres
7 long, something like that, a concrete wall. I don't
8 know exactly. It was at the very entrance into the
9 camp. Normally everything was done with a lot of
10 curses, threats and other humiliation. We were ordered
11 to empty our pockets, to give whatever we had, belts,
12 laces, watches, money. Everything we owned we had to
13 put next to us. Then we were ordered to form a line
14 and to follow the guards. There were guards
15 accompanying us all the time, and we headed towards a
16 part of the camp. At the time I didn't know where
17 I was going nor where we would be put up.
18 Q. Let me stop you for a minute here, if I may, sir. Was
19 anything taken from you personally at the entrance, when
20 everyone had to empty their pockets? Was anything of
21 value taken from you?
22 A. All of us that had watches, we had to take off our
23 watches. We had to give them whatever we had actually
24 in our pockets. Money, we had to hand over money,
25 though by then already Yugoslav money could not be
1 considered a value at that time. It was simply a pile
2 of paper circulating.
3 Q. Was anything of value taken from you?
4 A. In the camp I had to surrender my watch and about a
5 month later I had to give my ring, but I gave my ring
6 maybe a month after I had come. I don't know exactly.
7 Q. Did you ever get either your watch or your ring back?
8 A. No. It was never returned. Nothing was ever returned.
9 Q. Were you made to say anything when you first arrived at
10 the camp?
11 A. Upon our arrival, no. Nobody asked me anything.
12 Q. Please continue then with what happened after you and
13 the others gave up your valuables.
14 A. We were ordered to move -- to follow the guard. I was
15 somewhere in the middle of the group. We were brought
16 to a plateau near this wall. It wasn't very far.
17 There was a plateau. Actually there was nothing there
18 except manholes with some installations for fuel or for
19 water. I really don't know. I'm not an expert for
20 these things. These manholes were 2-3 metres deep.
21 It depends. They ordered us to enter those manholes.
22 Some of them were half full of water. In some there
23 was no water. In some there were five men; in others
24 there were ten. We were all forced into these
25 manholes. I can't -- it is difficult for me to say how
1 long we spent in those manholes, because I think one
2 loses all track of time under those circumstances.
3 I thought it was an eternity I had spent there.
4 Q. Let me ask you: do you know who any of the persons
5 other than the other prisoners who were present at the
6 time that you were -- you and the other prisoners were
7 placed into the manhole?
8 A. There were Muslim guards who were present. The team
9 from the camp, who was working in the camp all the
10 time. So the relationship was between prisoners and
12 Q. Do you know the names of anyone from the camp who was
13 present at the time you were put into the manhole?
14 A. Actually I knew a few people, but I've forgotten the
15 names. I remember certain nicknames. In charge of
16 this team of guards when we were brought to the camp and
17 taken to the manhole, the Commander was Hazim Delic.
18 Q. Please go on. While you were in the pit, could you
19 hear -- the manhole, could you hear anything coming from
20 any other manholes?
21 A. Of course. One could hear the sounds coming from the
22 other manholes. What I was particularly shocked and
23 surprised by, because at that time I didn't know that my
24 father who was in town at the time, who was brought
25 there at the same time as me and put in a manhole with
1 me -- not with me; he was in another manhole. I heard
2 his cries for help. He's a man of 65, 66, and quite
3 sick. I heard his cries that he was choking; he would
4 choke to death while he was in the manhole. Then
5 I recognised that it was my father. I heard somebody
6 opening the manhole next to ours. Soon they opened
7 ours too, ordered us to come out and the first thing
8 I saw was my father, who was sitting next to the
9 neighbouring manhole and he seemed lost. He was hardly
10 -- he was hardly conscious. That was one of the first
11 shocks I experienced upon being brought to the camp.
12 Q. When you say that your father was in town at the time,
13 what town do you mean?
14 A. I mean the town of Konjic. I have told you that I was
15 brought from the village of Brdjani where we had a
16 family home, an old family home, but we were living in
17 the town of Konjic and my father was in our apartment in
18 the town of Konjic. Since his name was read out in the
19 list in Brdjani and he was not in the village at the
20 time, he was brought from Konjic.
21 Q. Now at the time that you were removed from the manhole
22 do you remember anyone from the camp who was present at
23 the time you were removed from the manhole?
24 A. Yes. When we were removed we were ordered to form a
25 line again, and I again saw Hazim Delic. I saw Pavo
1 Mucic. He was standing to the left of me. He was
2 wearing a camouflage uniform. He had sunglasses on.
3 I remember his presence very well and the other guards
4 were always there. There were plenty of guards always.
5 Q. At this time when you first got to the camp did you
6 notice anything about Mr. Delic's physical condition at
7 that time?
8 A. Mr. Delic at that time was limping on one leg. I cannot
9 remember which leg. He had been hurt, I don't know
10 how. He must have been injured. Some people were
11 saying that he had been wounded. Others said that he
12 got injured when robbing a cafe. I really don't
13 know. Anyway it is a fact that his leg was injured and
14 that he was limping.
15 Q. What happened then after you were taken out of the
16 manhole? Where were you brought?
17 A. After being taken out of the manhole we were ordered to
18 follow a path after a guard, following a guard, and
19 there were others, of course, and we were brought in
20 front of a hangar, a military warehouse, a metal
21 structure some 25 metres long and 10-15 metres wide. I
22 don't know exactly. We entered one by one. We were
23 lined up in front and then we were ordered to enter one
24 by one. We were assigned a position where we would sit
25 and that is where we had to sit.
1 Q. Can you describe approximately where you sat in the
3 A. I sat very, very close to the door, the entrance to the
4 hangar, on the shorter side, so I was sitting on the
5 width side of the hangar, three or four metres from the
7 Q. Thank you. Did you stay in Hangar 6 the entire time
8 you were at Celebici?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Can you estimate how many prisoners approximately there
11 were in Hangar 6 when you arrived there?
12 A. When our group was brought there to the hangar in
13 Celebici, we filled the whole hangar. There wasn't any
14 more room left. We were distributed along the length
15 and width of the hangar and also in the middle some kind
16 of concentric circles were formed. I think there must
17 have been between 350 and 400 men. It's impossible for
18 me to give the exact figure because neither did I dare,
19 nor did I have the possibility to count, nor did it
20 occur to me to count the people.
21 Q. Can you describe the living conditions in Hangar 6, the
22 food, the toilet facilities, water? Can you just please
23 describe the living conditions?
24 A. In detail or just one word? Horror. Or are you
25 interested in more?
1 Q. In detail, please, sir.
2 A. Horror is a mild word for this. In the camp there was
3 dirt, filth, infectious skin diseases. We didn't wash
4 for a month. In the camp we had lice. As for food,
5 we got one piece -- a thin piece of bread a day, but
6 there were periods where we didn't get even that. We
7 drink water, industrial water that was given to us in
8 bottles. It was taken from the hydrants, from these
9 devices for fire-fighting devices, so that frequently
10 people had intestinal troubles and other problems
11 probably due to the water and to the general conditions
12 in the camp. They were inhuman, absolutely inhuman
13 conditions. There was terrible hunger. We didn't
14 have anything to eat and we were not allowed to receive
15 food. It was only after the Red Cross came to visit
16 that we were allowed to receive food from people
17 outside. So that I can say that almost throughout my
18 stay in the camp I had 90 kilos before the war. When
19 I came out I weighed some 50 kilos and that applied to
20 all of us. We were living corpses. When people got
21 up, we were ordered to sit, and when we were allowed to
22 get up to go to the toilet or if the guards closed the
23 doors and one could get up just to stretch, many people
24 would faint. They were so exhausted, many.
25 Q. Sir, were you sometimes allowed out of Hangar 6 to
1 perform certain duties?
2 A. Not just me, but there were other prisoners too who went
3 out of the hangar, because all the chores that needed to
4 be done in the camp, this military facility was not just
5 a camp; it was a warehouse for armaments and ammunition
6 for the Muslim army. It was like a barracks for a time
7 for the Muslim army. People came for training or for
8 some kind of gatherings. I don't know. I have no
9 idea of. I know there was another building full of
10 Muslim troops. There were duties. So I went out
11 frequently to do things, like unloading weapons or
12 unloading food or washing somebody's car. People often
13 came for the prisoners to wash their cars or to do some
14 other cleaning duty, moving things from one place to
15 another. There were often such duties to perform.
16 Q. Who was it who usually asked you to perform these
18 A. Usually a guard would come who was on duty. He would
19 probably be given orders to collect so many prisoners to
20 do a certain task, and sometimes they would ask whether
21 anybody wants to work. Another time he would say: "The
22 first five from this row" or "another five from this
23 row". There were various ways in which they selected
24 prisoners for work. Sometimes you would go out just to
25 have a chance to wash your hands or wash up after
1 completing this duty. Some people even volunteered.
2 Q. Was there someone present at the camp named Mr. Ivica
4 A. Yes. Ivica Buric was in the camp. He was actually the
5 driver of Pavo Mucic. He was the driver in the camp.
6 He also drove for other purposes, not just for Pavo,
7 probably to get certain supplies or something.
8 Q. Did you know Mr. Buric from before the war?
9 A. Yes. I saw Buric several times before the war. I
10 didn't know him well, but I had excellent relationships
11 with his brother.
12 Q. Were there some occasions where Mr. Buric called you out
13 or requested that you be called out to perform certain
15 A. Yes. It happened quite often. Again I can't say how
16 many times, but usually, as this was in my interest, he
17 would ask me to wash his car, because in that way
18 I myself could keep clean. On a number of occasions he
19 would offer me food. That was one of the ways for him
20 to be able to do it. Sometimes when he was forced to
21 act as a guard in place of somebody, he would take me
22 out because the temperature in the hangar was
23 unbearable. It was extremely high in the summer. We
24 were there in the summer, when for two or three months
25 there wasn't a drop of rain. So you can imagine what
1 it was like under a steel roof, in a steel structure.
2 So it was almost a pleasure to be taken out to do
3 anything -- except for beating, of course -- and he
4 would take me out and we would talk when he was on duty.
5 Q. During your conversations with Mr. Buric did he ever
6 provide you information concerning who he worked for or
7 how the camp structure was?
8 A. We spoke about everything. We would touch all kinds of
9 subjects. Throughout that time I had the impression
10 that he was almost apologising, that he found it hard
11 why these things were happening, why Serbs and Croats
12 were fighting one another. He couldn't accept that.
13 He said he was horrified by what the Muslims were doing
14 in the camp to the Serbs, both the male and female
15 prisoners, and I think that he and Pavo were the only
16 Croats there, at least during my stay in the camp.
17 Q. Did Mr. Buric ever indicate to you that he had talked
18 with anyone about the fact that you would or would not
19 be mistreated?
20 A. Of course, it's natural when you get into some kind of
21 trouble to try and find a way out in some possible way,
22 so I asked Buric whether he could help me somehow,
23 because I saw that people were getting killed, beaten
24 up, and he told me -- he promised that he would talk to
25 Pavo to try and protect me, so that nothing terrible
1 should happen to me, and on one occasion he even told me
2 that Pavo had told him to tell me not to worry, that
3 nothing terrible would happen to me. Of course,
4 everything was terrible, but when I say something
5 terrible, I'm thinking of not getting killed in the
7 Q. Do you remember anything about exactly -- well, do you
8 remember anything about when these conversations were
9 with Mr. Buric? Were they the entire time you were at
10 the camp?
11 A. If I don't count the first five or six days, but after
12 those five or six days throughout my stay in the camp,
13 sometimes twice a day he would call me. Sometimes he
14 wasn't there for a day or two, but we had contact very
15 frequently throughout my stay in Celebici.
16 Q. When you were at the camp, how frequently would you
17 yourself see Mr. Mucic present?
18 A. It's hard to tell precisely how often and on what
19 occasions, but on average about twice a month. That
20 would mean not too often. The first meeting was
21 immediately upon my arrival and then the next one, ten
22 days later. Then there was a period of time when
23 I wouldn't see him. Maybe some others did see him,
24 because, as I said, I did not stay in this hangar all
25 the time. I often did something, worked.
1 Q. So on those occasions when you did see Mr. Mucic, where
2 would it be? Would it be inside the hangar or outside
3 the hangar? Can you just tell us about that?
4 A. For the most part it was in the hangar. Pavo Mucic
5 would come escorted by some guards, and would always
6 order them to stay at the door to watch us. He would
7 go from one prisoner to the next and in this way he
8 would actually review all the prisoners. He would ask
9 some questions of someone and some he would just pass
10 by. Usually the questions were: "What did you have?
11 What kind of weapons did you have?" At least that's
12 what he asked of me.
13 Q. Did Mr. Mucic have an office at the camp?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. How do you know that he had an office at the camp?
16 A. On one occasion I was taken with another prisoner to
17 clean in this part where these offices were. There was
18 also a room where people ate and also I think there was
19 a dormitory. Delic had an office there. There were
20 some other rooms in there, in that building and I was
21 also questioned in this building after being brought to
22 Celebici, and somebody, a guard, who watched us as we
23 were working so that we wouldn't do something, he told
24 this other prisoner: "Go and clean up Pavo's office".
25 That sentence, that makes me believe that he had an
1 office there.
2 Q. Can you tell us anything about when this conversation --
3 when this happened, the beginning part of your stay or
4 what month it was that this happened, that this prisoner
5 was told to go and clean up Pavo's office?
6 A. It's hard for me to pinpoint the date. I think it was
7 the second half of July, about a month after my arrival
8 in the camp.
9 Q. Excuse me. Sir, did you know who was the commander of
10 the camp?
11 A. I thought that the commander of the camp, the camp
12 commander, was Pavo Mucic. When you arrive somewhere,
13 you first enquire with other prisoners: "Where are we?
14 What is this?" We wanted to have as much information as
15 possible. "How are things here?" In fact, everybody
16 wanted to know who the camp commander was. There were
17 other motives involved as well. There were people
18 maybe who may have thought that it would be a friend of
19 theirs, that there was a friend of theirs in the camp
20 who could help them. So we wanted to find out who the
21 camp commander was, who else was in the camp, etc., etc.,
22 so that we could find any kind of advantage for us. So
23 I got this information from other prisoners who had been
24 there from before, that he was the camp commander.
25 Q. During your conversations with Mr. Buric did you also
1 come to learn any information about who was in charge?
2 A. He sometimes had a habit -- in fact, I once joked with
3 him and said: "What are you guarding here? As soon as
4 Pavo is gone, Delic assigns you to guard". He said:
5 "Well, I can endure it. When Pavo is here, there are
6 no problems. Delic can't do anything and I'm not going
7 on guard duties".
8 Q. Okay. What did you understand Mr. Delic's role in the
9 camp to be?
10 A. Delic was addressed by other guards, some guards, as
11 "commander" and he was the one who was in charge of
12 prisoners, of the guards, the guard duties and anything
13 concerning the hangar and everything to do with the
14 prisoners. I know that a number of them addressed him
15 as "commander". So I thought that he was like the guard
16 commander. He seemed to be the second-in-command.
17 Maybe he was the first. That is my opinion based on
18 the function.
19 Q. When you were in the camp how frequently would you see
20 Mr. Delic?
21 A. I don't know if a day passed that I would not see him.
22 On many days I would see him several times; in other
23 words, very, very frequently. You could almost say
24 I saw him daily.
25 Q. Were you ever interrogated while you were at the camp?
1 A. Yes, I was interrogated. About seven days after my
2 arrival in the camp the interrogation started. Those
3 interrogations started earlier, but my turn came about
4 seven days later. There was a group of about five or
5 six people. That was the size of these groups. It
6 was ordered that we sit down on the concrete in front of
7 this command building where these offices were, with our
8 hands up, and we had to keep that way the whole time,
9 and we were waiting. Then eventually I was called in
10 and I gave a statement. This was about seven days
11 after my arrival in the camp I was interrogated.
12 Q. Do you know who it was who interrogated you, and can you
13 tell us how you were treated during the interrogation?
14 A. I was interrogated by Mladen Zovko. I don't know what
15 his post was at that time. He was my interrogator at
16 the time. That was the function that he discharged.
17 The interrogation -- at this interrogation there was
18 also a woman present there. I forget the name but she
19 was the typist during this process. I was asked about
20 this last period, where I was, where I was going, what
21 our movements were. Then they were sort of making a
22 summary of what I had said and dictated it to the
23 typist. I was not forced to answer this or that way,
24 and I'm sure at that time that his dictation to the
25 typist was very correct; in other words, I was in
1 complete agreement with what he was dictating and I had
2 no time to read this statement, but I then signed it and
3 then I was returned to the hangar.
4 Q. Were you ever told the results of your interrogation or
5 anything about why you were being detained?
6 A. No. In fact, never. When I saw that I was going to be
7 interrogated, I was hoping -- I said: "Well, this is my
8 chance to get out. I was never armed so nobody can
9 have anything against me". However, this day continued
10 without any results and any chances to get out. Then
11 I asked someone -- I don't recall whom. I said: "What
12 am I guilty for? What am I here for?" Then they said:
13 "Well, you're guilty because you're a Serb".
14 Q. Now, Mr. B, during the time that you were at the Celebici
15 camp, were you yourself ever mistreated?
16 A. In fact, I -- once or twice I was hit by Hazim Delic.
17 I apologise if I don't pronounce his name correctly.
18 On one occasion he kicked me in the chest as I was
19 sitting down. He walked by and he kicked me. The
20 second time he hit me with a baseball bat. That was
21 later. I cannot say that it was a particularly hard
22 blow. The only time when I was really beaten up was
23 immediately following the visit of the Red Cross to the
24 camp. At that time --
25 Q. Before you get there, was there ever any kind of
1 instrument used against any of the prisoners?
2 A. Hazim Delic often used a baseball bat. For a while he
3 had -- he carried -- I don't know how to call this
4 instrument. It was like a device that causes
5 electrical shocks. He would place it against the skin
6 of people and then they would sort of go into spasm or
7 something. I don't know what it's called. I know
8 that it was very unpleasant. I know that he found it
9 very amusing and that he did this to many prisoners.
10 Q. When you say you know it was very unpleasant, how do you
11 yourself know that it was unpleasant?
12 A. I know that it was unpleasant because he did it to me
14 Q. Thank you. Please, you were starting to describe what
15 happened immediately after the Red Cross visit. First,
16 can you estimate when it was that the Red Cross visit
18 A. I can say that approximately the visit took place in the
19 first half of August, maybe around August 10. I'm
20 really not sure about the exact date. First half of
21 August, somewhere around 10th August.
22 Q. Please continue with what happened such that you were
23 mistreated after the Red Cross visit.
24 A. After the visit of the Red Cross, shortly after their
25 departure, the doors to the hangar were closed. We
1 heard footsteps and we knew that there was a larger
2 group arriving. They abruptly came in. They were led
3 by Hazim Delic. This was a large group of guards.
4 I think that there were eight of them. They were
5 divided into two groups of four. They went from one
6 side and the other went from the other side. Each
7 prisoner was beaten by four guards. I remember that at
8 that time I received quite a lot of beatings and
9 I suffered the consequences of that beating even after
10 I was released from prison.
11 Q. Was anyone in charge of the prisoners being beaten and
12 can you describe exactly what happened to you?
13 A. Hazim Delic stood -- was sort of close to me, not far
14 from the door, and for some he would say: "Go easy on
15 him". So he had some prisoners that he wanted beaten
16 more severely and some others not so severely. I don't
17 know what the criterion was, but I know that when the
18 people from the Red Cross came they closed the door to
19 the hangar and supposedly we were free to talk to these
20 people. However, nobody would approach them,
21 absolutely nobody wanted to come close to them and say
22 anything to them, because we were fearing all kinds of
23 things at that time. I think that people were fearing
24 the presence of the interpreters. There was a woman
25 from Mostar. I didn't recall her name. At one point
1 I approached these people from the Red Cross and I asked
2 whether the interpreter speaks -- whether the
3 interpreter spoke French. I was told that she was only
4 interpreting from English, and since I had studied
5 French before the war I tried to speak in French and
6 explain the conditions in the camp, what was going on,
7 what was happening to us, and then he asked the other
8 prisoners to gather in a larger group and tell what was
9 going on in the camp, and I think that some of the
10 prisoners -- you know, there's always somebody who wants
11 to profit, to benefit, maybe to get less beatings and
12 more bread. Somebody may have given my name, because
13 I really received unusually strong beating, and I was
14 wondering why it was happening to me then since up until
15 that time I was not getting that kind of beating.
16 Q. Can you please just tell us who beat you, what
17 happened? Can you please just tell us exactly what
19 A. The procedure was approximately -- not approximately;
20 this is exactly what the procedure was. We all had to
21 sit down facing the wall. We all had to put our hands
22 up behind our heads, so that the guards could beat us.
23 We were all in this position and these teams went around
24 and hit every -- beat every prisoner. Again my
25 impression is that some got more and some less, but they
1 were all beaten in the same way. We all had to do
2 this, and if you fell after the first blow, they wait.
3 You have to get up so that they could -- the others
4 could continue to beat you.
5 Q. Okay. Sir, during your time at Celebici did you ever
6 witness other prisoners being mistreated?
7 A. That was just about a daily occurrence. It was daily
8 really. For instance, Esad Landzo would come in or
9 Hazim Delic would come in and they would say: "Okay.
10 The whole Bradina, get up". All people from Bradina had
11 to get up. They would go from one to the next and beat
12 them. Many -- the real nightmare was when it grew
13 dark. Almost every night the guards would call out
14 people who had to get out and were beaten or killed.
15 Q. Okay. Did you ever witness any mistreatment which
16 resulted or events leading up to the death of any
18 A. Yes, I did see. I saw one such murder when Esad Landzo
19 killed Bosko Samoukovic. He did this in front of all
20 of us, 350, 400, however many we were there. Maybe it
21 was 2 or 3 metres away from me is where he killed this
23 Q. Would you please just describe exactly what you yourself
24 saw about what happened?
25 A. What I saw happening was that Landzo came in, came
1 through the door and ordered Bosko Samoukovic to get
2 up. Bosko Samoukovic was a very fragile, elderly man
3 of some 70 -- maybe he was even older than that. When
4 he came there, and this was all happening in front of
5 me, he started hitting him savagely. I think he first
6 hit him several times with his rifle butt. He fell
7 down but he continued to kick him. He had soldier's
8 boots on and he kicked him all over the body. I think
9 in the end he picked up some stick or something, until
10 he really finished him off, until the man -- I don't
11 know if he was dead at that moment really or maybe he
12 died the next day. The next day Hazim Delic came and
13 walked around the hangar and asked one of the Bosko's
14 sons who were there, and Landzo had killed him in front
15 of them, and he asked him: "So what's with your father?
16 Do you know what is with your father?" And he kept
17 silent. He said: "He died". He said: "It must have
18 been the cold. Do you think that he caught cold".
19 It's hard for me to recall exactly, because Delic's
20 communications with prisoners was filled with
21 cynicism. So this is what I remember, this comment
22 that it was from cold that he died.
23 Q. Okay. Was there a prisoner named Zeljko Klimenta at
24 Celebici when you were there?
25 A. Yes. Yes.
1 Q. Can you please tell us what you yourself observed or
2 what you yourself heard with respect to what happened to
4 A. Zeljko Klimenta was killed in this camp a day or two
5 before the -- several days let's say before the visit of
6 the Red Cross. I don't know exactly the time. One
7 night -- Zeljko Klimenta, by the way, was the owner of
8 several cafes in Konjic, and people were saying of him
9 that he was very skilful and that he was a good
10 businessman, and he had a different treatment from
11 others. He was often called out. He would often get
12 cigarettes. So most people in Konjic knew him, because
13 many could come to the camp and beat anybody, but they
14 could also visit anybody they wanted. So the guards
15 would bring people out so that they would be able to
16 talk to these visitors. I heard not far away from me
17 on the other side of the hangar, at the other side of
18 this tin wall of the hangar, somebody was -- somebody
19 asked that Zeljko Klimenta come out. I heard Delic
20 saying to some Emir: "I don't know. I'm a bit -- oh,
21 Emir, just feast your eyes on him. Fuck it. He's not
22 going to live to see tomorrow". This happened on the
23 eve of when Zeljko Klimenta was killed.
24 Q. Okay. Then please continue. After this conversation
25 -- at some point after this conversation that you
1 overheard with Mr. Delic what, if anything, did you
2 observe concerning Mr. Klimenta?
3 A. Klimenta returned to the hangar. As I said, it was
4 already the evening, the night, and shortly thereafter
5 -- and I now don't recall whether somebody had been
6 beaten up that night; that I don't recollect. Now we
7 slept on the concrete, so our sleep was very light.
8 I know that in the morning one of the guards called
9 Klimenta out. In fact, no. One of the prisoners
10 called Klimenta out to have -- to take coffee with the
11 guard. That also happened, that some guards would call
12 Klimenta out and have a cup of coffee with him. So
13 this was early in the morning. I don't know if it was
14 4.00 or 5.00 in the morning. They had gone out
15 there. I didn't consider it significant at all. All
16 of a sudden a shot rang out and we all jumped.
17 Immediately following this shot this prisoner -- his
18 name I think was Martic -- I think he was called Crni --
19 he ran in and he said: "Keljo was killed". That was
20 Klimenta's nickname. He sat down at his place and he
21 put his head into his hand and started crying. Shortly
22 after that the door was closed. We all fell silent and
23 we expected to see what was going to happen. They
24 called some prisoners out to hose down the blood because
25 the body was right in front of the hangar. He was
1 killed, I guess, on his way back to the hangar. He was
2 shot from behind in the head. Then they called out
3 some prisoners to remove his body and wash up the
4 blood. This was two or three days before the visit of
5 the Red Cross, so I just wanted to survive. When we
6 would go out to the toilet really ourselves, the next
7 time you could not see any traces of blood and the body
8 had been removed.
9 Q. Okay.
10 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: I suppose we can afford to break here.
11 MS. McHENRY: Thank you, your Honour.
12 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: And resume at 2.30.
13 MS. McHENRY: Thank you.
14 (1.00 pm)
15 (Luncheon Adjournment)
1 (2.30 pm)
2 (Witness re-enters court)
3 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Remind the witness he is on his oath.
4 THE REGISTRAR: I'm reminding you that you are still
5 testifying under oath.
6 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: You can continue, Ms. McHenry.
7 MS. McHENRY: Thank you, your Honour.
8 Sir, was there a detainee named Mr. Scepo Gotovac
9 in Celebici?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Can you please tell me what, if anything, you yourself
12 observed or you yourself heard at the time concerning
13 what happened to Mr. Gotovac?
14 A. Scepo Gotovac was brought a few days after my arrival at
15 the camp. One day they threw him through the door.
16 This old man was thrown into the prison. I saw Hazim
17 Delic and Zenga then. He was thrown there next to me
18 to sit next to me and Hazim Delic said that during the
19 Second World War he had killed two Muslims and buried
20 them on the location of the camp, and he said that he
21 should not hope to leave alive. He tried to defend
22 himself, claiming that he'd never killed anyone. Even
23 he told the rest of us prisoners.
24 After the door had been closed he was saying
1 That evening Scepo Gotovac was beaten up twice.
2 First, he was taken out that same evening and beaten for
3 quite a long time. We could hear the cries, the
4 moans. He was not killed then. He was brought
5 back. Then I think it was the next evening he was
6 lying there all beaten up. He was called out again
7 outside, at night fall. I remember Zenga, Esad
8 Landzo. He came in. He came into the hangar.
9 I think that Delic was near the door, outside. He
10 didn't want to go out. He was -- and then two other
11 prisoners were ordered to help him get up and push him
12 out, outside the door. This was right next to me in
13 the hangar. They started beating him and by the number
14 of blows, the movements and everything we could hear,
15 there must have been a large group of people, several
16 people. This went on forever. At least that's the
17 impression I had. They seemed to have tired of it
18 eventually and at one point I think Zenga said: "Let me
19 have him". Then we heard blows inflicted by only one
20 person, heavy blows, with some kind of a stick on the
21 body, and after a very short time those of us who were
22 sitting nearby could only hear the blows on the body.
23 There seemed to be no resistance, no moans, no cries,
24 nothing. After some time somebody came in and called
25 out the prisoners sitting next to the door and ordered
1 them to come out and carry Scepo's body back in, which,
2 of course, they had to do. They brought him in. Esad
3 Landzo came in and said: "If anyone takes this badge off
4 his forehead", and he had pierced his forehead with a
5 badge of the Serbian Democratic Party, and he said: "If
6 anyone removes this badge from his forehead, I will kill
7 him myself", and the body of Scepo Gotovac lay there for
8 maybe two or three days -- I don't know exactly -- right
9 next to me in that camp. Nobody, of course, dared
10 touch him or remove the badge. I don't know who it was
11 that gave permission for the body to be taken out and
12 removed from the hangar. So it was almost always the
13 same team of men sitting next to the door who carried
14 out the body and took it away somewhere.
15 Q. Sir, when you say --
16 MR. OLUJIC (in interpretation): I apologise, your
17 Honours. Mr. Zdravko Mucic, because of the screen,
18 cannot see the witness, so could we open up the screen a
19 little bit, so he can see the witness. Thank you.
20 MS. McHENRY: Maybe it would also be possible if your
21 Honours would request that the witness move forward. I
22 don't know if that would also help matters.
23 JUDGE JAN: Yes, it would.
24 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Yes. If you come forward. I think
25 the screen may be opened up a bit. Straighten it up a
1 bit. It will make a lot of difference. On that side,
2 yes. You can open it wider. It doesn't matter.
4 MS. McHENRY: Sir, when you said that the body remained
5 there for two days, was Mr. Gotovac dead or alive then
6 and how did you conclude that he was either dead or
8 A. I'm not a doctor to be able to say that somebody is
9 dead, but if somebody doesn't move for two days and
10 stays in the same position at night and day-time and if
11 somebody doesn't breathe, I suppose he's dead.
12 Q. Thank you. Sir, was there a prisoner named Simo
13 Jovanovic in the prison?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Could you please tell the judges what, it anything, you
16 observed concerning what happened to Mr. Jovanovic?
17 A. Yes. Simo Jovanovic was a man in his 60s who was
18 already in the camp when I arrived. I heard that
19 before I came he had been terribly beaten.
20 MS. McMURREY: Your Honour, I'm going to ask that -- the
21 Prosecutor, of course, knows that the proper foundation
22 has to be laid before he can go into what he heard about
23 what happened before he got to the camp. I'm only
24 asking the Prosecutor lay the proper foundation for this
25 second-hand information. Thank you.
1 MS. McHENRY: Sir, maybe -- can you just please go forward
2 to tell us what you yourself saw or heard going on as it
3 was happening with respect to Mr. Jovanovic's treatment
4 after you were at the camp?
5 A. When I was at the camp, Mr. Simo Jovanovic, I found him
6 there. He was already in a poor condition. I don't
7 know exactly at what time during my stay, but anyway one
8 night he was called out. I saw Zenga then. I'm sorry
9 -- Esad Landzo, that everyone called Zenga. He came
10 in with another man, whom I didn't know. People said
11 that he came from the same village as Simo Jovanovic,
12 but I don't know that for sure. He had to go out.
13 All of us in the camp, as soon as he left, there were
14 certain satirical comments: "Come on, Simo. Come
15 out. We won't do anything. You'll be all right". As
16 soon as he left, the beating started. Again it must
17 have been a group of people. We heard terrible cries
18 and moans, and afterwards, talking to some people in the
19 camp, the people who lived 500 metres or 1 km from that
20 hangar in the village of Celebici could hear these
22 MS. McHENRY: Sir, if you could just please again tell us
23 what you yourself saw or heard at this time with respect
24 to Mr. Jovanovic?
25 A. Okay.
1 Q. During this beating that you could hear going on
2 outside, could you hear anyone's voices?
3 A. It seemed to me that I could hear the voice of Esad
4 Landzo. There was this tin wall between us. I don't
5 know exactly how long this beating lasted. I think it
6 lasted for quite some time and then it is difficult to
7 say exactly who, because everything was happening either
8 at dusk or in the evening. Somebody came in. We
9 called them the guards for the dead. They were called
10 out to bring him in. In the morning we all saw that he
11 was dead. When we got up, when it dawned, his body was
12 there with us for at least two days, and one of the
13 inmates who may have had a contact with one of the
14 guards asked that the body be removed, if possible,
15 because it was very hot in the hangar and we were afraid
16 of disease. So with another two or three prisoners
17 I carried out his body. We put him behind the
18 hangar. I think we covered him with an old uniform of
19 the former JNA, the shirt. I don't remember exactly
20 how long the body stayed there, nor where it was carried
21 away to.
22 Q. During the time that the body was in the hangar, was it
23 motionless and was there any breathing?
24 A. No. No. One could not hear any breathing and the body
25 was motionless.
1 Q. Sir, several times you have mentioned Esad Landzo called
2 Zenga in the camp. Did you know Mr. Landzo from before
3 the war?
4 A. I never knew Landzo personally, nor was I ever
5 introduced to him or him to me. I saw the boy once or
6 twice in my life. I knew his face, nothing more than
7 that. I never had any personal contact with him.
8 Q. But when you say you knew his face, do you mean you knew
9 his face before you were at the camp?
10 A. Yes. Yes. Yes. When I saw him in the camp, I realised
11 it was somebody I knew, somebody I had seen from before,
12 though I didn't know his name or surname at the time.
13 We had no personal contact, nor were we ever introduced
14 to one another.
15 Q. When you were at the camp how frequently would you see
16 Zenga in the camp?
17 A. Unfortunately very frequently.
18 Q. Sir, was there other mistreatment of prisoners, even
19 when it did not result in prisoners dying?
20 A. Almost on a daily basis.
21 Q. Could you please tell us what you yourself observed
22 concerning mistreatment of other prisoners?
23 A. I shall try to briefly mention some instances of
24 mistreatment, because it is really impossible and
25 difficult to describe within a limited period of time
1 all this. Esad Landzo was the most active in
2 mistreatment and the most imaginative in making up all
3 kinds of forms of mistreatment. I shall mention just
4 some of his specialities. He would burn parts of
5 people's bodies. He would pour --
6 MS. McMURREY: Your Honour, excuse me. I would like to ask
7 one more time that the proper foundation be set and
8 whether this person witnessed personally what he is
9 talking about or whether he just got this from
10 second-hand information. I submit please that the
11 proper foundation be laid before this information is
12 gone into.
13 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Actually if you had listened to him,
14 he opened his statement by saying he would like to limit
15 it to just a few and I think he is stating what he
16 himself has observed. If somebody is telling you
17 somebody was most imaginative, he knew what he has been
18 saying. He didn't tell us from the beginning that he
19 has heard it from anyone else.
20 MS. McMURREY: I do believe that Ms. McHenry did ask that he
21 reflect only what he personally saw and personally
22 witnessed. I just wanted to make sure that the proper
23 foundation was laid. Thank you.
24 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: I didn't see the point in raising this
25 objection at all.
1 MS. McHENRY: Sir, would you please -- may I continue, your
3 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Yes, you can continue.
4 MS. McHENRY: Sir, would you please continue with what you
5 yourself observed concerning what Zenga did?
6 A. Let me repeat, I shall try to mention only a few
7 examples that I personally observed and that happened in
8 my immediate vicinity. Next to me for a time two
9 brothers were sitting. I don't know whether it would
10 be right to mention their identity, because what
11 happened to them is really awful. He forced them to do
12 fellatio in front of all of us, to have sexual
13 intercourse. I'm really embarrassed to talk about
14 these things. When I remember all of those things, the
15 tears of those boys, when I remember that we had to
16 watch, that this was all amusement to him, it is really
17 very hard.
18 Q. Sir, in addition to the -- did you in addition to the
19 fellatio did you observe any of the other things that
20 happened to these two brothers?
21 A. He forced them to beat each other. Alternatively they
22 had to beat each other. If one of them didn't hit hard
23 enough, then he would hit him, and he would go on
24 forcing them to hit each other really hard. Then he
25 would take a -- I think it's a slow-burning fuse or
1 something like that that's used for explosives, and he
2 would order them to take off their underwear so that --
3 and then he would wind this fuse round their body, and
4 one end would be free and he would light that end.
5 Then he would order them to stand still without moving,
6 and if they would begin to move, he would beat them.
7 I can't remember all the names. I didn't know all the
8 prisoners by name.
9 He would come to a prisoner and he would force him
10 to do push-ups, and at the same time he would hit him in
11 the area of the stomach, with full force, the kidneys,
12 the back while he was performing these push-ups.
13 I personally witnessed at least 20 of those cases, such
14 cases, without any exaggeration. This kind of physical
15 exercises when he was beating these, what one might call
16 corpses doing these exercises.
17 Also in my immediate vicinity he heated some kind
18 of pincers -- I think you could call them that. He
19 heated these pincers and then he tortured whether ear,
20 nose, tongue, mouth of a prisoner from Bradina, from the
21 village of Bradina. I can't remember all the forms of
22 torture that I personally observed. A former taxi
23 driver from Konjic, I think his name was Bendzo, had his
24 whole leg lighted. Nedo Draganic, another prisoner,
25 was poured with petrol and his whole leg was burnt from
1 the lower leg to the knee, and he had terrible wounds
2 without any medical treatment in that filth and at a
3 temperature of maybe up to 50 degrees Centigrade.
4 Q. Sir, were the injuries that the prisoners received from
5 being mistreated, were they sometimes visible injuries?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Sir, when was it that you left Celebici?
8 A. I left Celebici in the second half of August. I was
9 transferred to the Sports Hall in Konjic.
10 Q. How long did you stay at the Sports Hall in Konjic?
11 A. I think it was not more than ten days.
12 Q. Okay. What then, sir, were the circumstances when you
13 left the Musala camp?
14 A. I was sent for exchange, to be exchanged. One day a
15 guard came to me and told me to go out. I went, and
16 outside there were some guards and some other people.
17 Pavo Mucic gave me a paper. I don't know how I could
18 call it -- a discharge paper. I think in the heading
19 it said "Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina, Municipality of
20 Konjic" and it said that the measure of detention is
21 being suspended and that I would be sent to a place
22 called Fojnica for the purpose of exchange. I had to
23 go. I didn't have to accept being exchanged but I had
24 to go.
25 Q. Sir, when you received this document from Mr. Mucic, was
1 it already filled out and signed, or did any part of
2 that happen in your presence?
3 A. I think that the signature was placed in my presence.
4 Q. If I may have the usher's assistance, may I please have
5 this document marked for identification purposes as
6 Prosecution Exhibit -- I understand 158? This document
7 has previously been provided to all Defence Counsel.
8 Sir, I ask if you can identify the document that
9 has been marked for identification purposes as 158.
10 Yes, sir, that document?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. What is that document?
13 A. Yes, that is that document.
14 Q. That is a document given to you by Mr. Mucic that you've
15 just described; is that correct?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Sir, were you, in fact --
18 JUDGE JAN: Just a minute. Have you read the English
20 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, your Honour.
21 JUDGE JAN: When you read the English translation, it says
22 "her movements".
23 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: It's indicating a female.
24 MR. MORAN: Excuse me, your Honour. The interpreters are
25 waving. I don't think your microphone is on.
1 MS. McHENRY: I will check with the translation section
2 afterwards. I believe what happens with this is it is
3 a neutral term in the Serbo-Croatian language. It
4 neither signifies -- at least as this is being read. I
5 will double check that, but that is my understanding.
6 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: I suppose if it's --
7 MS. McHENRY: We will check with the translation section.
8 If there's a problem, we will submit a corrected
9 translation. As you might imagine, I'm unable to fully
10 answer your Honour's question, since I do not speak
12 Sir, were you, in fact, exchanged at this time?
13 A. No.
14 Q. Can you just please briefly describe what happened?
15 A. Together with my father two Muslim soldiers -- I assume
16 they were soldiers because they were in uniform -- they
17 took us by car to the place called Fojnica and I waited
18 ten days for the exchange in Fojnica. All the time
19 they were trying to carry out the exchange, but it
20 didn't succeed. I do not know for what reason. After
21 that I was taken back to Konjic, and upon coming to
22 Konjic I went to the village of Brdjani again where my
23 family was, and I stayed there until I left.
24 Q. When was it that you left Brdjani and the entire Konjic
1 A. From Brdjani I left on March 13th. That is when I left
2 the municipality of Konjic and Bosnia-Herzegovina and
3 via Croatia and Hungary I arrived in Belgrade.
4 Q. Excuse me for one minute, your Honour.
5 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Yes. You can continue.
6 MS. McHENRY: Your Honour, that finishes my examination.
7 May I please briefly ask for a private session just with
8 no sound to the public gallery?
9 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Yes, you can. Kindly inform them.
10 MS. McHENRY: Thank you. I believe it is now private.
11 (In closed session).
7 (In open session)
8 MS. McHENRY: I think we are now. I would be requesting
9 the admission of Prosecution Exhibit 158 and I have no
10 further questions.
11 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: There is no objection to it, is
12 there? It is admitted. Any cross-examinations?
13 MR. O'SULLIVAN: Yes, your Honour. We will proceed in this
14 order. First, counsel for Mr. Delalic; second, counsel
15 for Mr. Mucic; third, counsel for Mr. Delic; and, fourth,
16 counsel for Mr. Landzo.
17 Cross-examination by Ms. Residovic
18 MS. RESIDOVIC (in interpretation): May I, your Honours?
19 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Yes, you may.
20 MS. RESIDOVIC (in interpretation): May I proceed? Thank
21 you. Good afternoon, Mr. B. As you may be aware of, I
22 am Edina Residovic. I am Defence Counsel for Mr. Zejnil
23 Delalic. I will request of you, since I'll be asking
24 several questions with respect to the names of your
25 family, to go into private session, so that I would not
1 violate your right to protect your own identity before
2 this Trial Chamber. Could we please go into the
3 private session?
4 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Yes. Let's get into private session
5 for the cross-examination.
6 (In closed session)
1 into the open session now, please.
2 (In open session)
3 MS. RESIDOVIC (in interpretation): Mr. B, did you spend two
4 and a half months in Celebici and Musala since the end
5 of June until the middle of August?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. As you stated before this Trial Chamber, you went
8 through to Belgrade via Zagreb and Hungary and then,
9 following that, you went abroad to the place you are
10 now; is that correct?
11 A. The important aspect is that I arrived in Belgrade
12 through Zagreb and Hungary. I would like to keep my
13 address private. I don't want to be a media star or
14 anything. I would like my address to remain anonymous.
15 Q. Thank you. Yes, but as a Serb who for a while was
16 imprisoned in the Celebici camp, on your way to Belgrade
17 did you encounter no problems?
18 A. Absolutely.
19 Q. Mr. B, beside the family house in Brdjani, your parents
20 also had an apartment in Konjic?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Could you please tell us whether your house in Brdjani
23 was damaged?
24 A. There were -- there was no major damage, but if you can
25 count as damage the fact that several times, as we say,
1 in quotation marks our neighbours came and shot into our
2 -- at our house several times from up close and then
3 also --
4 Q. What about your apartment in Konjic?
5 A. The apartment in Konjic was left intact.
6 Q. You said that you graduated in economics in Sarajevo?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Is it true that after that you worked as a commercial
9 specialist in Unis, one of the largest companies in
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. You went to work until mid-April; is that correct?
13 A. The last time I went to work was April 13th.
14 Q. Mr. B, you are a witness of the fact that as of 6th April
15 Sarajevo was attacked, which created an atmosphere that
16 really meant the immediate threat of war and war
18 A. I don't know what attack you have in mind. On 13th
19 April I was in Sarajevo, so the communications were free
20 and open and there was no attack, and as far as the
21 atmosphere is concerned, I would say you were right, but
22 the atmosphere was very bad much earlier than that.
23 Q. Based on your personal experience can you confirm before
24 this Trial Chamber that on the highway at different
25 points there were checkpoints, some of them manned by
1 the representatives of the reserve police, and in
2 Ilidza, Blazuji, Hadzici and in Bradina these
3 checkpoints were manned by the Serb reservists?
4 A. I cannot give you a precise answer to this question,
5 because towards the very end, that is practically at the
6 end of my work in Sarajevo, I did not go to Sarajevo in
7 a vehicle every day. The simple reason for this was
8 that it was incredibly difficult to find fuel. So when
9 we could find fuel we would take a vehicle and, if not,
10 we would take a train. From the train I never saw any
11 barricade, but it is possible they did exist.
12 Q. Mr. B, let us just touch on what you just said. You
13 said that there were serious shortages of fuel and
14 before this Trial Chamber you said that already in the
15 second half of April there were severe shortages of food
16 in the Konjic town, that you had a small child and that
17 this was one of the reasons why you left Konjic town; is
18 that correct?
19 A. One of the reasons was because it was very difficult to
20 find food for a small child and milk and I thought that
21 it would be easier to find that in the countryside, in a
22 village, to find milk.
23 Q. Mr. B, you have personal experience of the fact that
24 there were food shortages in the Konjic town and area in
1 A. I really only was referring to the baby food. This is
2 what I focused on. I was the person in the family --
3 I was not the person in the family who was really
4 shopping for food, and so I don't know what was
5 difficult to find, but I know that this was difficult to
6 find in Konjic even earlier. So for the last year
7 I was bringing this food from Sarajevo.
8 Q. Mr. B, now I would like to ask you, since until you left
9 for Brdjani you lived in town, if you could try to
10 identify certain locations that I will show you on this
11 tape. There's no audio on this. This is an original
12 videotape, true videotape of Konjic television. This
13 tape has been shown to the Prosecution in July of last
14 year and was also made available to them two months
15 ago. I would like now to have this tape shown to the
16 witness, please. Can we have the Technical Department
17 please show this and have it marked for identification
19 (Videotape played)
20 Q. Thank you. Mr. B, can you recognise the location that
21 was shown on this tape?
22 A. I think this was the Serbian orthodox church in Konjic
23 based on the tower. I am saying I think but I'm not
25 Q. Before that you saw a panorama of the city. What city
1 was that?
2 A. Konjic.
3 Q. Since the witness identified the city and the location
4 where this group of people was standing, which was the
5 intention of the Defence, I would like to have -- to
6 tender this videotape as evidence. Go ahead, please.
7 MS. McHENRY: Your Honour, I would object for two reasons.
8 The first is relevance and the second is the witness has
9 indicated that he's not the least -- he's sure that he
10 recognised the tower but he couldn't say anything other
11 than that -- other than that the panorama was for Konjic
12 town. So I would object for two reasons, first for
13 relevance and, second, for foundation.
14 MS. RESIDOVIC (in interpretation): Your Honours, I think
15 that this objection is not founded, since the Defence
16 asked for the location and the city be identified, and
17 from -- also it speaks to the shortages that the witness
18 has referred to. I think that the witness was accurate
19 enough, that his identification is acceptable. If
20 necessary, we can show the videotape one more time. Do
21 you wish to see it one more time?
22 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: What is the issue which you are
23 trying to establish? What is the issue? I don't know
24 what is the relevance of it all. What is the issue
25 this video is trying to establish?
1 MS. RESIDOVIC (in interpretation): Your Honours, the
2 witness said --
3 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: I don't think it's necessary.
4 I agree with the objection. It has no basis at all.
5 I don't see the relevance at all.
6 MS. RESIDOVIC (in interpretation): Your Honours, you
7 ruled. I will not comment on it. However, the
8 witness spoke about the shortages of baby food and food
9 for children and obviously there were food lines that
10 were shown in this video.
11 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: I don't know if it's baby food they
12 are talking about there. It has nothing to do about it
13 at all.
14 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.
15 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: I still repeat it is completely
16 irrelevant. It has nothing to do with the evidence or
17 what you are trying to prove.
18 MS. RESIDOVIC (in interpretation): Mr. B, in early May of
19 1992 did the Commander from Podorasac Zovko Zvonko and
20 the MUP of Konjic conduct a search in the village of
21 Brdjani. Do you know about this?
22 A. You said this was?
23 Q. Early May of 1992?
24 A. I don't know that.
25 Q. You also don't know that at that time a part of the
1 population -- some individuals in the village of Brdjani
2 was detained because of weapons possession?
3 A. No, I don't. No. As I said, I do not know. Maybe a
4 correction there. Even though I was born there, I was
5 going up to that village very rarely and except for a
6 few people, I didn't know anybody there. So I don't
7 think that my knowledge of it is relevant, because
8 I simply don't know these things.
9 Q. Mr. B, do you know that at that time there was the HVO in
10 existence in Konjic and a number of Muslims from the
11 city and the environs was involved in it?
12 A. Are you asking me whether I know of it now or whether
13 I knew about it at that time?
14 Q. Both.
15 A. Now I certainly know that this exists. I think it's
16 common knowledge now, but frankly speaking I did not
17 know of any military formations being there. Then
18 I would not have -- I would have fled the city.
19 I would have gone somewhere else to seek shelter.
20 Q. Mr. B, do you know that in Bosnia and Herzegovina a state
21 of immediate war threat was declared on April 8th?
22 A. No.
23 Q. Do you know that in mid-April, or more precisely 17th
24 April, a general call-out was also proclaimed?
25 A. No.
1 Q. Mr. B, you are a military conscript?
2 A. No. You mean now?
3 Q. No, at that time.
4 A. At that time I don't know. About a month or two or
5 three before that I received -- I was a conscript and
6 I did go to Mostar to some exercises and I got a call to
7 come and turn in all my equipment, and I did that, and
8 then after that nobody ever called me again.
9 Q. You personally did not go to report anywhere?
10 A. No, nowhere.
11 Q. Mr. B, you said that Mr. Spago came in the second part of
12 June with a list of all male citizens of Brdjani?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. You also said that seven days after your arrival in
15 Celebici you were interrogated by the commission which
16 interrogated the detainees?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Given that a long time has gone by, on the basis of that
19 information can we conclude that you must have been
20 interrogated somewhere around June 25th?
21 A. I cannot make any conclusions. I explained that I had
22 to make a reservation, because -- regarding dates,
23 because five years have gone by. Whether that was on
24 25th or 26th I find it very difficult to pinpoint the
1 Q. Mr. B, I only ask of you to put a date on it the way you
2 have explained the other events, I guess. So you
3 arrived in the second half, the middle of June, and then
4 seven days later you were interrogated?
5 A. Approximately.
6 Q. So that would have been around 25th June?
7 A. Approximately. It could have been but it may not have
8 been but there is the possibility it was around 25th
10 Q. Thank you. Do you know Strahinja Zivak, your neighbour
11 from Brdjani?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Do you know that Strahinja Zivak gave a rifle M-48 to
14 your father?
15 A. No.
16 Q. Is it true that you discussed with your father certain
17 weapons offered by Zivak? Is it true, Mr. B, that while
18 you were in Bradina you were in the house of Vaso
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Is it true that you surrendered your father's rifle --
22 you gave it to Mr. Vaso Kuljanin?
23 A. No.
24 Q. If somebody else were to say that this was correct, he
25 wouldn't be telling the truth?
1 A. Probably.
2 Q. Mr. B, I only have a few more questions for you. You
3 said that after being called out -- after your name
4 being called out you were taken to the place of
6 A. Yes, yes, to Podorasac.
7 Q. Podorasac was the seat of the HVO command?
8 A. Believe me, I don't know. To me they were all the
9 same. I really don't know who had their base there.
10 Q. Mr. B, did you see any insignia -- that insignia on the
11 uniform of Mr. Spago Nedzad?
12 A. I do not recall the insignia.
13 Q. Mr. B, do you know the following persons as your
14 neighbours: Mirko Zivak, Cedo Zivak, Savo Zivak,
15 Radenko Gligorevic, Zaran Slavko, Zivak Slavko,
16 Stoijanovic Mladen, Draganic Voijo, Draganic Radko,
17 Senikovic Slobodan and others?
18 A. By their surnames I met some of those people in the
19 camp. I would say that they come from that region of
20 Brdjani, but, as I have already said, I knew very, very
21 people from the village, only a few households that were
22 in the immediate vicinity of my old family home.
23 Q. Do you know Ramic Agan?
24 A. Ramic Agan, yes. I didn't know him before the war but
25 I met him during the war.
1 Q. Do you know that he was the Commander of a TO unit in
2 your village?
3 A. I don't know. I don't know what his function was.
4 I know that almost all of them had been engaged in the
5 TO, but what exactly his duty was I don't know.
6 Q. Do you know that the persons I listed a moment ago and
7 some others from Brdjani had handed to Agan Ramic a
8 total of 47 rifles, of which 29 were M-48s, six were
9 semi-automatic rifles and 12 were other types of
11 A. Possibly that is true. I never counted any weapons,
12 nor did I keep any record of what people had by way of
14 Q. Therefore, Mr. B, you knew that the inhabitants of
15 Brdjani had military weapons?
16 A. I think that at that time there were weapons virtually
17 everywhere and I do know that some people had some kind
18 of weapons. What they had and how many, whether it was
19 military or hunting rifles, I really don't know.
20 Q. Therefore the statement that you made in your testimony
21 that nobody in Brdjani was armed, nor did anyone
22 participate in defence, could not be considered quite
24 A. I don't know who was armed in Brdjani, but I know that
25 there was absolutely no defence of that village, nor can
1 anyone say that people from Brdjani participated in the
2 defence of Brdjani.
3 Q. A further point. Two more questions. Were you aware
4 that the Serbian Democratic Party, of which you are not
5 a member, in the first half of April, took a decision
6 that it would not participate in the defence of Konjic?
7 A. As you said, I was never a member of the Serbian
8 Democratic Party, so I am not familiar with their
9 decisions at all, though my life was mostly limited to
10 life in Sarajevo, so that I knew very little of what was
11 happening in Konjic. I would just come and spend the
12 night there more or less.
13 Q. But as an inhabitant of Sarajevo you were familiar with
14 the positions of SDS and Radovan Karadzic at the time?
15 A. Really it was very difficult to work in those days as an
16 economist so I was preoccupied and I am not a
17 politically minded person. I was never interested in
18 politics. So I didn't know much about positions that
19 you referred to. Of course, one had to watch the TV
20 sometimes and one had to see that the situation was very
21 bad, but I never really was intimately familiar with the
22 positions of Radovan Karadzic, nor were anyone else.
23 Q. Thank you very much, Mr. B. I have no further
24 questions. Thank you, your Honours?
25 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Thank you very much. Any other
2 MR. OLUJIC (in interpretation): Yes, your Honours. I beg
3 for your indulgence for a couple of minutes until I get
4 set up here.
5 Cross-examination by Mr. Olujic
6 MR. OLUJIC (in interpretation): May I be allowed, your
8 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Yes.
9 MR. OLUJIC (in interpretation): Thank you.
10 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: You can carry on with the witness.
11 MR. OLUJIC (in interpretation): Good afternoon, Mr. B. My
12 name is Zeljko Olujic. I am Defence Counsel for
13 Mr. Zdravko Mucic. We speak in two different languages
14 but we'll understand one another. You speak Serbian,
15 I speak Croatian, but we lived for a long time in the
16 same state, so I think we'll understand each other.
17 I won't take long, Mr. B.
18 A. May I make a correction? I was taught all my life that
19 I speak Serbo-Croatian and I still claim to speak
21 Q. That was a misconception, both yours and ours. You
22 have spent all day in the courtroom, so I shall try and
23 be as concise as possible, because I assume you must be
24 tired, but nevertheless we need to clear up a few
25 things, so ...
1 In your testimony today in this courtroom you said
2 that Mr. Ivica Buric was a person who helped you in the
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Is that correct?
6 A. Absolutely correct.
7 Q. May I ask you something else? We must wait a little for
8 the interpretation into English between our questions
9 and our answers so as to be able to allow the others to
11 A. I apologise.
12 Q. Never mind. You knew Ivica Buric from before, didn't
14 A. I knew him very superficially. He's much younger than
15 I, so that he was not in my group, but I knew his
16 brother very well, and that probably explains the help
17 he gave me because his brother probably influenced
18 him. That's all that I can assume.
19 Q. What was his brother's name?
20 A. I knew his brother Stravko. No, I'm sorry. The
21 brother that I was close to was Goran. I'm sorry.
23 Q. Mr. B, how did Mr. Ivica Buric treat the other prisoners
24 in the camp?
25 A. You see, I can't be exclusive, but I must say that
1 nobody ever said anything bad about that young man. He
2 was very -- he treated people decently and I think he
3 mostly tried to help them. He didn't help me only.
4 He probably helped others. In a nutshell he was
6 Q. What was he by ethnic origin?
7 A. He was a Croat.
8 Q. Your Honours, I should like to ask a question which may
9 in a certain sense disclose the identity of the witness
10 so for these two questions may we go into private
11 session, please?
12 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Yes.
13 (In closed session)
20 (In open session)
21 Q. In answer to the cross-examination of my learned
22 colleague you said that before the war you used to work
23 in Sarajevo?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Did you have occasion to meet a certain Mr. Petar
1 Blazevic there?
2 A. Can you give me his nickname? Maybe I do know him.
3 Q. Petar Blazevic. I only know him as such?
4 A. If he's from Konjic, I think I know him. I know a
5 Petar Blazevic and how many people there are in the
6 former Yugoslavia with the same names, you know
8 Q. This Petar Blazevic comes from Serbia. Nicknamed maybe
10 A. Yes, they called him Serbia. That is the Petar
11 Blazevic I had in mind.
12 Q. You know him?
13 A. Yes, I do.
14 Q. How did you meet him?
15 A. I didn't know Petar Blazevic from Sarajevo. I knew
16 Peter Blazevic from much earlier on.
17 Q. But he worked with you in Sarajevo?
18 A. This was a large enterprise, as your learned colleague
19 said. There are about 2000 workers and at least 20
20 branch offices, and he worked in one of those Unis
21 branch offices. I think it was the branch for the
22 maintenance of the buildings in which we worked, if I'm
23 not mistaken.
24 Q. Did you know Mr. Zdravko Mucic from before?
25 A. We were never personally introduced, nor were we
1 friends, but I did know him.
2 Q. Mr. B, in your testimony today you mentioned that you had
3 heard from other prisoners that Mr. Mucic had an office
4 in the camp; is that correct?
5 A. I didn't hear that from prisoners. I heard that on one
6 occasion when we were cleaning the premises and one of
7 the guards said: "Clean Pavo's office". So I'm just
8 conveying what I heard. So I won't enter into the
9 conclusion you can make from that. Maybe the man was
10 wrong. Maybe it wasn't his office. I don't know.
11 Q. So you allow for that possibility?
12 A. Sir, I conveyed the sentence I heard. Now what the
13 competence of the guards is, how reliable and all that,
14 it's not up to me to judge. I don't know.
15 Q. Mr. B, when you heard that -- let me try and fix this in
16 time. Was this just before the arrival of the
17 International Red Cross or after, a few days before or a
18 few days after?
19 A. I wouldn't say it was a couple of days before the Red
20 Cross. It was a little more than that, maybe -- let's
21 say a month after my arrival at the camp. I can't say
22 exactly whether it was 31 days, 32 or 29 days. Under
23 those conditions it's very difficult to measure the
25 Q. I understand that. That is why I am trying to link
1 this to certain events, because I realised after all the
2 suffering you have gone through you can't remember the
3 dates with precision, but let us roughly try and situate
4 this in time, if you can.
5 MS. McHENRY: Your Honours, if I may just object, the
6 witness has already stated he doesn't know exactly but
7 he statements it was somewhere around 30 days after he
8 first arrived at the camp. Therefore, I would object
9 to any further questions about that.
10 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: I suppose you might still try to limit
11 him within the period. You can find a way to bring him
12 nearer to the period. It is still within these
14 MR. OLUJIC (in interpretation): Well, let us leave that as
15 it is, so we can proceed, Mr. B. In your testimony
16 today you said that when you were released from the
17 camp, the release paper was given to you by Mr. Zdravko
18 Mucic; is that correct?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Mr. B, tell me, who signed that document on your release?
21 A. Mr. Zdravko Mucic. This was between the Sports Hall and
22 a part of the elementary school. They were linked, and
23 in the place in between there was a table and there were
24 some other people in addition to Zdravko Mucic. I was
25 told I was going to be exchanged. He was sitting at
1 that table and signing some papers. As soon as he
2 signed that paper it was given to me.
3 Q. But the paper that you received, when signed that paper?
4 A. Probably Mr. Mucic. You see three lines. Mr. Mucic.
5 Q. But I am asking you not to assume but to tell us what
6 you are sure of. If you're not sure --
7 A. I saw Mr. Mucic leaning on the table and writing on those
8 papers, so that must be it. That's all I can say, what
9 I saw.
10 Q. Mr. B, when you left the Celebici camp, did you see
11 Mr. Mucic immediately before that?
12 A. Just before I left the camp he came to Hangar
13 Number 6. I don't know exactly how many of our names
14 were read out then, and he was there until we entered a
15 van. I don't know exactly how many of us there were.
16 I don't know what the others were transported in.
17 I entered this van and I was driven to Musala. After
18 that I wasn't in Celebici, nor could I go there.
19 Q. Did Mr. Mucic ask you then whether you had any rifle or
21 A. He asked me once whether I was armed and I said, as
22 before in the statement that I made in the Celebici camp
23 that I didn't have any weapons and he simply passed by
24 without making any comment.
25 Q. When you arrived in the camp you mentioned that all --
1 you gave all your valuables, money, gold ring?
2 A. No, the ring went I don't know exactly when, but it went
3 maybe a month after, after. I had a Quartz watch, some
4 perhaps already worthless money. There was a tobacco
5 box. We had no cigarettes then already so we were
6 making our own. Then there was something like a
7 cigarette holder that you put this hand-made cigarette
8 into and I can't remember every little detail.
9 Q. It's only normal that you can't. When you were handing
10 over these things, was anyone else present?
11 A. We put the things next to us at a time when we were
12 facing the wall. The guards were there. Delic was
13 there and the other guards. I don't know who picked up
14 those things and how, because we were led off in the
15 direction of the manholes.
16 Q. Was Mr. Mucic present there?
17 A. I didn't see him then.
18 Q. Mr. B, tell me, did anyone ever tell you from among the
19 prisoners that during physical and other mistreatment
20 Mr. Pavo Mucic had been present?
21 A. No.
22 Q. Did you ever see in the four or five times that you saw
23 Mr. Mucic in the camp -- did you ever observe anyone
24 being physically mistreated in his presence?
25 A. No.
1 Q. Just very briefly, Mr. B, where did you first make a
2 statement regarding the issue that has brought you here
3 to The Hague Tribunal?
4 A. Do I have to answer that question, give you the address,
5 the town? Just the town?
6 MS. McHENRY: Your Honour, I would request that this witness
7 even in private session not be asked to give the
8 location of where he gave -- assuming that it's anywhere
9 close to where he lives now, or if he's uncomfortable
10 because he doesn't want to give his current
11 whereabouts. I don't believe there would be any
12 objection if Defence Counsel wanted to ask to whom, but
13 if the witness believes that the answer to this would
14 give away his present whereabouts, then I would object
15 to the question.
16 MR. OLUJIC (in interpretation): Was this statement made
17 outside the territory of Bosnia-Herzegovina?
18 A. If you are satisfied with such an answer, in a town in
19 Serbia. I had the status of refugee and all the
20 refugees -- I don't know about the women, but at least
21 I was -- almost everyone was asked to make this
22 interview in the Ministry of the Interior, had a very
23 brief informative interview, where you were, what you
24 did. I said what I had been through. When I said that
25 I had been in the camp, they asked me if I could make a
1 statement about my stay in the camp. I said I had
2 nothing against and I made a statement on my stay in the
4 Q. I have no further questions. Thank you, your
5 Honours. Thank you, Mr. B.
6 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Any other cross-examination?
7 MR. MORAN: Yes, your Honour. Your Honour, my cross will
8 be fairly --
9 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: We might break now and come back at
11 MR. MORAN: I was just about to suggest that very thing,
12 your Honour.
13 (4.00 pm)
14 (Short break)
15 (4.30 pm)
16 Cross-examination by Mr. Moran
17 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Mr. Moran?
18 MR. MORAN: Thank you, your Honour. May it please the
19 court? Good afternoon, sir. My name is Tom Moran and
20 I represent Hazim Delic here. I am going to ask you a
21 very few questions, a couple of areas, and I will tell
22 you what those are. I would ask you if you will listen
23 to the question that I ask and if you don't understand
24 it, I will rephrase it until you do, because I'm not
25 trying to confuse you. Is that fair enough?
1 The second thing is I just noticed you nodded
2 "yes". There's two people in the courtroom, this lady
3 up here and another lady over there, who are what are
4 called court reporters, and they have to write down
5 everything that happens in the court to make a record of
6 it. They can't write down a nod. So if you say "yes"
7 or "no", if "yes" or "no" is what you want to say,
8 I know they would appreciate it and the judges would
9 appreciate it and I would appreciate it. Can you do
10 that for me, sir?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Thank you. Okay. Thank you very much. There are a
13 couple of areas I want to go over. I know you made a
14 statement to the Office of the Prosecutor in February of
15 last year and you made that statement to the Ministry of
16 the Interior for -- what was it -- Serbia after you were
17 released from the camp or after you were exchanged.
18 I would like to ask you: have you talked about your
19 experiences in the camp with any other groups or people
20 from officials sources?
21 A. Yes, of course, I did discuss my stay in the camp with
22 my family, with my relatives who were in the camp.
23 Unfortunately we do remember those unpleasant times, and
24 as far as people in official positions are concerned,
25 no, not really.
1 Q. So not with, for instance, the Association of Detainees
2 or the American Serbian Women's Caucus, any organisation
3 like that?
4 A. I cannot know. Like, for instance, if I talk to you, I
5 don't know what are the memberships in different
6 organisations you may be. So I don't know if these
7 people that I talked to were also members of some other
9 Q. But you didn't give any kind of a formal -- just the two
10 formal written statements are the only two formal
11 written statements you've given?
12 A. I gave a statement in Serbia and I also gave a statement
13 -- that's right. There was Serbian Women's Caucus.
14 I need not say where they are from, but this was done in
15 the presence of a representative of the Tribunal. I
16 don't know his name. But it could have also been a
17 tourist travel agency or some such organisation as well.
18 Q. Sure. So you gave a statement to a guy from the
19 Tribunal, named Ole Hortemo, back in February of last
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. And there was someone present from another group at the
23 time you gave that statement from some Serbian Women's
24 Caucus? Did I understand you to say that?
25 A. When I was giving the statement, there was no other
1 person present except for the interpreter of Mr.
2 Hortemo. So no other person had access to the
3 statement. I don't know what Mr. Hortemo did with this
4 statement subsequently, to whom, if anybody, he showed
5 it, but when I was giving the statement, only Mr. Hortemo
6 and his interpreter were present there, but if he is a
7 member of one of these organisations you are referring
8 to, you can check that with him. I think that he is
9 Norwegian, and I believe that my pronunciation of his
10 name is correct, but if I'm wrong, please correct me on
12 Q. Your guess is as good as mine, sir, on the pronunciation
13 of his name. Your Honour, I'm going to ask about two
14 questions that I think we might want to do in a private
16 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: We can get that organised.
17 MR. MORAN: So if we could go into private session for a
18 couple of minutes. I think we are in private session
20 (In closed session)
13 Page 5096 redacted in closed session
13 Page 5097 redacted in closed session
21 (In open session)
22 Q. I would like to ask you to help me with a couple of
23 areas and then we will be done. You testified on
24 direct for a while you were living in Bradina. You
25 went to Bradina in, what -- some time in May or April of
1 1992. Do you remember that? You went there for a
2 short time?
3 A. Yes. In May of 1992, and I was there for a very short
4 period of time.
5 Q. And you were talking about -- everything was fairly
6 unorganised -- "extremely disorganised" I think were
7 your words -- when it came to the defence of Bradina.
8 Do you recall that?
9 A. It is very easily possible that I said that. When
10 I speak about organisation of things, it's a matter of
11 personal view. I think it's a personal opinion. On
12 the same topic -- for the same thing you could say that
13 something was organised very well and I could say that
14 something is poorly organised. In my view it was very
15 poorly organised. I saw that my wife and my daughter
16 could not leave Bradina under the auspices of the Red
17 Cross and my only goal was to pull out of this dangerous
18 surroundings. There was -- and I had no-one to turn to
19 in Brdjani and that turned out to be a very good
20 decision as it ...
21 I also need to add that I never was involved in
22 anything military, in terms of studying military
23 doctrines, on studies or anything like that, so I don't
24 think that I can really give any expert judgement on
25 whether something was well-organised from a military
1 point of view. This was a lay opinion and the opinion
2 of an amateur, if you will. So it's like the same as
3 whether you like something or you don't like something,
4 that type of statement.
5 Q. You are of the age -- I think you have testified you are
6 36 years old. So you would have been of the age to
7 have done National Service in the JNA. Did you do your
8 National Service or were you somehow exempted, and if
9 you were exempted, that's fine?
10 A. No, I did do my military service.
11 Q. Okay. So you've got some experience around the
12 military. Obviously you weren't on the general staff
13 or anything like that, but when you were in Bradina --
14 you have been around an organised military. The JNA at
15 the time you were in it was a well-organised,
16 well-respected army in Europe. Did you see anything
17 even close to like that?
18 A. Unfortunately I must say that in part I don't agree with
19 you when you say that the JNA was a well-organised
20 force, because during my military service in 1984
21 I worked in a telephone exchange as an operator, so that
22 I don't have much experience in terms of again the
23 military doctrines, the attacks and defence and things
24 like that, but my impression from being in the JNA was
25 that it was a very poorly organised military force, but
1 I'm not competent. Even when I served, I was only a
2 telephone operator. So I really again cannot give you
3 expert opinions on it.
4 Q. Let me go on to something else and I'll tell you why I'm
5 going to ask you about this so again it's not going to
6 come as any kind of surprise to you. You may very well
7 be the first person we have talked to here that was out
8 and about inside the camp at Celebici. You were out
9 doing various jobs at various times. What I want to
10 ask you about is this. As I understand it, there were
11 people, military people, that were living, stationed in
12 the Celebici camp, who weren't part of the guard
13 force. It was a separate unit. Can you help me with
15 A. I first must tell you that your first assertion that
16 I was moving around Celebici -- I worked at the camp.
17 Celebici is a village and the camp was part of that
18 village, the territory of the village. So I was only
19 moving around the camp only under the escort of a guard
20 and, for instance, at night there would be transport
21 coming in, so then they would say: "Come on. Do we need
22 ten guys to unload this?" Then when they were tired,
23 the other ten would come in. So it was not just
24 wandering about the camp. So it was always
1 The other part of your question referred to other
2 uniformed persons besides the guard force. Is that
3 correct? Can you restate that please?
4 Q. Yes. By the way, I am just centring on the camp, not
5 the whole town of Celebici. Were there other military
6 people that were stationed in the camp or living in the
7 camp at Celebici who were not part of the guard force,
8 maybe another unit sharing the camp?
9 A. For a while, that is periodically in a hangar which was
10 next to Hangar Number 6, which served as a prison, some
11 uniformed people stayed and they were part of the Muslim
12 forces. Nobody introduced themselves to me, who they
13 were, what they were, so this is my assumption. If
14 this short stay there could be called, you know, being
15 stationed there, maybe. Then there were some other
16 persons there who were also present, who were not
17 connected to the guard force. I think that there was
18 somebody who was repairing weaponry, who had their own
19 little corner and they had their own little cot so that
20 they could sleep there. Again whether it was living on
21 the premises, again I don't know.
22 Q. The day you got to Celebici, when you were lined up
23 against the wall, the concrete wall, right after you got
24 off the trucks -- do you recall you testified about
25 that, and there were some Muslim soldiers that came up,
1 right after you reached Celebici, right after you
2 reached the camp? You testified on direct you were
3 ordered to line up against a concrete wall and there
4 were some threats and curses at you and you were ordered
5 to empty your pockets. Do you recall testifying about
6 that on direct?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Did you see the people milling around that were not part
9 of the guard force?
10 A. No, I did not see them. I must tell you that at that
11 time I had the impression that I shouldn't turn around
12 much and look around. That was the impression that
13 I had, so that I could only see the guards, maybe not
14 even all the guards. I would see somebody who was in
15 front of me or just in my line of vision. I couldn't
16 see the guards behind me and I didn't turn around much
17 and look around whether there were other people there,
18 and in this kind of a situation it's a bit unnatural to
19 sort of wander around and look at the landscape or
21 Q. I understand. Sir, thank you very much. Your Honour,
22 I pass the witness.
23 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Thank you very much. Any other
25 MS. McMURREY: Yes, your Honour.
1 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Ms. McMurrey?
2 MS. McMURREY: Yes, your Honour.
3 Cross-examination by Ms. McMurrey
4 MS. McMURREY: I would just like to inform the Registrar,
5 please, that I will need those three photographs of the
6 people from Belgrade in a few moments also. I don't
7 know the numbers of those. Thank you.
8 May it please the court? Thank you. Good
9 afternoon, Witness B. My name is Cynthia McMurrey.
10 A. Good afternoon.
11 Q. Good afternoon. I'm defence attorney for Mr. Esad
12 Landzo. I know that the Prosecutor has already
13 discussed this with you, but one of the things that
14 I would like to ask you to agree with me on this
15 afternoon is when you are giving evidence in the
16 courtroom that you only testify or talk about things
17 that you personally experienced or that you personally
18 heard or that you personally witnessed. Do we have an
19 agreement on that?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Thank you very much. I believe that you visited with
22 the Prosecutor -- you said Mr. -- I can't pronounce his
23 name either -- Mr. Hortemo -- is that his name -- with
24 the Prosecutor's Office in February of 1996?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. And you granted him an interview at that time, didn't
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Now, the Prosecution some time between that point and
5 now told you that we of the defence would like a chance
6 to interview and talk to you about your experiences at
7 Celebici also, didn't they?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. And you responded to them that you did not want to
10 discuss that with us; is that correct?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. So you decided that you would not give us the same
13 courtesy that you gave the Prosecution?
14 A. I don't know why I would -- I had a special courtesy for
15 the Prosecution. I had no time to talk to anybody from
16 the Defence and I didn't think that it was necessary.
17 I was given a choice and if you are given a choice, you
18 take the option that you use more. I didn't ever feel
19 that this was my obligation, because that was not how it
20 was put to me. Since I have agreed to -- since
21 I agreed to come here, I knew that I would accept, as
22 they call it, the rules of the game and talk to
23 everyone, but I was given a choice to talk to you or not
24 and then I chose not to.
25 Q. Thank you. We respect your choice also. Thank you.
1 You stated earlier that, of course, you made a statement
2 to the Office of the Prosecution and you said you also
3 spoke to the Serbian Women's Caucus and you also
4 mentioned something about a tourist travel agency. Can
5 you tell us what kind of statement you might have made
6 to a tourist travel agency?
7 A. Obviously either it was misinterpreted or it was maybe
8 misunderstood. When your colleague asked me before
9 about the circumstances under which I gave a statement,
10 I was very clear. There was no organisation of Serbian
11 Women that I gave this statement to. I gave this
12 statement exclusively to Mr. Hortemo in the present of
13 his interpreter -- I mean his interpreter -- yes, in the
14 presence of his interpreter, and it seemed to me at that
15 time that I did not need to answer who organised this,
16 and I said: "Well, it could have been organised even by
17 a tourist travel agency". Obviously I did not give any
18 statements to a tourist travel agency, because I said
19 already that I had not given any statements to anyone
20 except to the representatives of this Tribunal, provided
21 that Mr. Hortemo is or was a representative of this
22 Tribunal. So that was what I said.
23 Q. Thank you. At this time I would like to ask, with the
24 assistance of the usher, that these three photographs be
25 shown to Mr. B, please, and just for the record, could
1 I have what the numbers of those three photographs are?
2 THE REGISTRAR: It is 5/2, 6/2 and 7/2 exhibit numbers.
3 MS. McMURREY: Thank you very much. Could we start with
4 the first photograph? Can we put it on the ELMO also?
5 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: How do you identify these numbers to
6 correspond with what he has?
7 MS. McMURREY: I will have to ask the usher to assist me
8 with that. Thank you. Mr. Usher, can you tell us the
9 number of the photograph that you are putting on the
10 ELMO first, please?
11 THE USHER: D6/2.
12 MS. McMURREY: Thank you. Mr. B, can you tell me if you
13 have ever seen this woman before, if you recognise this
14 woman, not from what's on the monitor now. If we could
15 just have it focused a second. Thank you. Have you
16 ever seen that woman before?
17 A. I think I've not. I think I have not seen her.
18 Q. Okay. Thank you. Can we go on to the next
19 photograph, please?
20 THE USHER: D5/2.
21 MS. McMURREY: This photograph is D5/2 and, Mr. B, can you
22 look at this photograph and tell me if you have ever
23 seen this person before and if you recognise him?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. And can you tell us who he is, please?
1 A. This is Dr. Milivoy -- it is even written down there.
2 There is a caption down there with his name. Otherwise
3 I do know him.
4 Q. You do know him because you saw him in Belgrade; isn't
5 that true?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Do you know him as the President of the Association of
8 Detainees in Belgrade?
9 A. No.
10 Q. It is true that at some point this person examined you
11 in Belgrade, didn't he?
12 A. Yes. Yes.
13 Q. When he examined you, did you give a statement to him
14 about your experiences in Celebici?
15 A. No.
16 Q. When he examined you in Belgrade, did he take X-rays of
18 A. Believe me, I can't remember. I really can't remember
19 whether he took X-rays or not. I did have an
20 examination, but I don't know that any -- whether any
21 X-rays were included in it.
22 Q. So if there were X-rays, he didn't give them to you, did
24 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: That's a very awkward question. He
25 didn't know whether there were X-rays so the condition
1 of whether if there were is a very --
2 MS. McMURREY: I'll move on, your Honour. Do you remember
3 whether you had any urine samples taken and any reports
4 done of your urine as part of your examination?
5 A. No. I can't remember. I can tell you the examination
6 took place maybe five years ago and in that period
7 things were happening to me, such big things and such
8 big changes in my life, that I had to fight for my
9 existence, for my survival. There was the question of
10 moving from Belgrade and things like that. So I really
11 can't remember these details from a medical examination.
12 Q. So your testimony is that you can't remember what
13 occurred at the medical examination, but you do remember
14 that you did not make a statement about your experiences
15 at Celebici to this gentleman, did you?
16 A. I had certain difficulties in the area of my back and
17 it's quite possible that he must have asked me what
18 happened. "Did you fall? Is it from a blow?", or
19 things like that. I don't know what the exact term is
20 in medicine when a doctor wants to find out how an
21 injury or a medical problem started. So it's quite
22 possible for a doctor to ask you: "Did you fall or did
23 somebody hit you?", so as to know how to treat you. He
24 must know the origin of your injury and I may have told
25 him that I was detained in a camp. I find it difficult
1 to recall the exact wording of what I said, but I'm
2 saying that it's quite probable that he did ask me this.
3 Q. You were aware that this doctor was also associated with
4 the Association of Detainees in Belgrade, were you not?
5 A. No. I didn't even know that such an association existed
6 in Belgrade, nor was I ever a member of that
7 association, nor -- I got the address of Dr. Bjelica from
8 another detainee, a relative of mine, and the first few
9 days when we arrived to Serbia nobody reported, because
10 we were afraid of mobilisation and who knows what else
11 could happen. Later on our fears proved to be
12 unfounded, so we had no medical documents, no documents
13 at all, and I learned that this man was a highly humane
14 one, that he would examine us without any payment and we
15 needed this examination without having to pay for it.
16 I hadn't known him from before, nor was I aware that he
17 was a member of any association, nor did I know his
19 Q. When you say that none of you reported when you first
20 arrived in Belgrade, do you mean that none of you
21 reported to this doctor for an examination?
22 A. No. No. Please be more precise if you are asking me
23 things like that. I never said that nobody reported to
24 the authorities when they came to Belgrade or somewhere
25 else in the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia. I didn't
1 report immediately to the authorities. When I learned
2 that one could do so without any consequences, I did,
3 but a couple of days went by before we reported to the
4 authorities, before we registered. I did later on.
5 Q. I'm sorry. I just realised that I'm being
6 inconsiderate to the usher. Would you please remove
7 that photograph and show him the third one so we can
8 finish with the photographs? That would be?
9 THE USHER: D7/2.
10 MS. McMURREY: D7/2. Do you recognise this gentleman?
11 A. No.
12 Q. Okay. Thank you very much. I would just like the
13 record to reflect that the only one he recognised was
14 D5/2; is that correct?
15 THE USHER: Yes.
16 MS. McMURREY: Okay. Thank you. So when you got to
17 Belgrade, you did not ask the Association of Detainees
18 for any assistance; is that correct?
19 A. No.
20 Q. I believe earlier you had stated that you were not
21 interested in politics at all, but as an economist, you
22 know for a fact that economics and politics are
23 intrinsically intertwined, aren't they?
24 A. You are right, but maybe I need to expand a little on my
25 answer. Politics and economics -- in the firm I was
1 working in, I dealt with the domestic market. Politics
2 is necessary for economies dealing with export and
3 import so as to know what kind of a political situation
4 is in a particular country, whether it is appropriate
5 for investment, whether capital was fleeing from that
6 country and so on. I was saying that politics was not
7 my preoccupation, but if you insist, it is normal that
8 no-one can 100 per cent isolate himself from politics.
9 If you have ears and eyes you have to see or hear things
10 in the papers, on television. You have to have some
11 kind of knowledge about it, but that was not my
12 occupation, nor was it my preoccupation or my interest.
13 Q. But you did testify that you were aware that the
14 political situation basically had rendered the Yugoslav
15 money worthless; isn't that correct?
16 A. Yes, of course. Indeed.
17 Q. I believe in your testimony earlier also you had
18 testified that the Muslim troops attacked Brdjani; is
19 that correct?
20 A. If you were listening carefully to my answers, I said
21 that I fled from the village of Brdjani as soon as this
22 shower of shells started falling. I don't know exactly
23 what firearms were being used, was it anti-aircraft
24 machine guns or something like that. I didn't see
25 Muslim troops entering the village.
1 Q. But you did know -- you know now that it was not Muslim
2 troops; it was a combined forces of HVO, HOS and TO
3 forces, wasn't it?
4 MS. McHENRY: Your Honour, if I may object or at least get
5 Defence Counsel to withdraw her previous instruction
6 that this witness should only testify about what he
7 himself observed, since he has already stated he himself
8 did not observe this. If she wants to ask him about
9 hearsay, I don't object, but I just think we should be
10 clear about that.
11 MS. McMURREY: Well, I will ask him if he knows from his
12 studies since that time whether it was a combined force.
13 MS. McHENRY: Then I would only ask for clarification of the
14 word "studies", your Honour.
15 MS. McMURREY: I'll move on. I really don't think it's
16 that important at this point. Thank you. You also
17 claimed --
18 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: It's a very good game.
19 MS. McMURREY: Thank you. I can give occasionally. The
20 Muslim military police you said came to arrest you on
21 the second half of June. Isn't that true? Didn't you
22 say it was the Muslim military police? That's not
23 correct, is it?
24 A. I apologise. I can't recall saying that the Muslim
25 police came to arrest me on 2nd June. If you can
1 explain a little, when did I make the statement on 2nd
3 Q. In your direct testimony earlier you stated in the
4 second half of June -- you couldn't remember the exact
5 day -- that the Muslim military police came to Brdjani
6 and read out a list of 50 to 60 men from Brdjani; is
7 that correct?
8 A. I apologise. Originally the translation I got was "2nd
9 June", not "the second half of June". In the second
10 half of June I assume he was working for the Muslim
11 military police, Mr. Spago. I have just remembered his
12 first name. I think it was Ferid. He read out a
13 list, but please don't insist on the number. My
14 estimate was that it was between 50 and 60 men. There
15 may have been fewer or more than that. That was my
17 Q. My specific point of interest is that there was not
18 really any Muslim military police; that that was a
19 combined force also, wasn't it?
20 A. I'm very uncertain about military terminology. For me
21 a force means several people. This was one individual,
22 a member of the Muslim military police. I'm sorry I'm
23 using the term "Muslim military police". Maybe at that
24 time they called themselves "Territorial Defence" and
25 later became the Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina. I don't
1 know exactly, but anyway I'm saying it so that you know
2 who I mean. It was this one man, Ferid Spago. Maybe
3 someone else went to the other end of the village.
4 Mountain villages consist of several hamlets with quite
5 isolated homes and households. I don't know whether
6 someone else went to a different part of the village.
7 All I remember is Ferid Spago.
8 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: I think what counsel is trying to
9 explain to you is that there is no such organisation
10 known as the Muslim military police. That's what she's
12 MS. McMURREY: Thank you, your Honour.
13 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Do you know of any such organisation?
14 A. I knew a man who told me. I said I was using the term
15 "Muslim" to indicate that it was not a Serbian. This
16 may not be an organisation, but a part of the Army of
17 Bosnia-Herzegovina that was the military police.
18 I suppose there is a military police in any country in
19 the world, and I just wanted to say that one member of
20 that section came and read out this list.
21 MS. McMURREY: Thank you. I would like to move back to --
22 A. I am sorry. May I just add, I was not saying a
23 paramilitary organisation had come that called itself
24 the military police or any such separate group that had
25 the words "military police" in its name. I have never
1 implied that this was a separate organisation, just as a
2 part of a force.
3 Q. Thank you. I think we're all clear on that now.
4 Thank you. I want to move back to -- Madame Residovic,
5 who is the attorney for Mr. Delalic, had shown a video
6 earlier today. In that video you did recognise that as
7 Konjic and you did recognise that as the Serbian
8 Orthodox Church of some sort. Can you tell me: do you
9 recognise that line of people as a line of persons in
10 Konjic waiting to receive food rations?
11 A. I must first say that my impression was that it was
12 Konjic. After all, there are many towns that have a
13 river and lots of greenery along the banks. Since this
14 is a trial about Celebici and Konjic, it's normal that
15 I should assume that it was Konjic and it resembles
16 Konjic. I also assume that it is the Orthodox Church,
17 and what those people were waiting for in the line and
18 what they were carrying in the bags I really can't
19 tell. Though I come from Konjic and I lived a long
20 time there, I didn't recognise anyone in that line.
21 Q. Even though you didn't recognise anyone in that line,
22 you don't recognise that that was a line of people
23 needing to receive food in Konjic; is that what you are
25 MS. McHENRY: Objection. Asked and answered.
1 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Why do you think he should come to
2 such a conclusion?
3 MS. McMURREY: Well, I was just asking if he did recognise
4 it as a food line.
5 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: How could he?
6 MS. McMURREY: How could he?
7 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Is there anything written in the video
8 to indicate that there was such a food line?
9 MS. McMURREY: It looked like a food line to me, but maybe
10 it doesn't look like a food line to him. That is all
11 I'm trying to elicit. If it doesn't look like a food
12 line to him, I will move on.
13 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: So many people may draw different
14 conclusions from such a line.
15 MS. McMURREY: It could have been for paper and pencils.
16 Okay. Thank you. You did testify that even for the
17 last year that food supplies were in short supply in
18 Konjic, didn't you? I know you testified about baby
19 food, but there were shortages of other food in Konjic
20 in 1992, weren't there?
21 A. Believe me, about other supplies I don't know. I know
22 that very frequently I would bring various baby foods
23 from Sarajevo, which doesn't mean to say that you could
24 never find it in Konjic, but it was easier to find it in
25 Sarajevo, as the centre of the Republic, which was far
1 better supplied, than in a relatively small town like
2 Konjic. It was my mother who usually went to the
3 market, my wife. They did the shopping, so I really
4 don't know.
5 Q. Since you lived in Konjic and you worked in Sarajevo,
6 were you aware that in the month of April there were
7 some maybe 20,000 refugees that were coming through
8 Konjic at that time?
9 A. No.
10 Q. Thank you. You had testified earlier today about
11 certain injuries to a Nedeljko Draganic, a Dusko Bendzo
12 and a few other persons that you mentioned. Just for
13 clarification, I would like to say that you maybe saw
14 the injuries of these people, but you didn't see what
15 actually happened to them outside the hangar, did you?
16 A. I stated very clearly today which injuries of which
17 people and which tortures I eyewitnessed. After that I
18 said what kind of injuries I saw, and I can add to that
19 that I really did see those injuries, but I didn't see
20 the moments when those burns were inflicted. I did see
21 other things. Maybe, if necessary, I can clarify
23 Q. Thank you very much. I think you just clarified it.
24 Thank you very much. I appreciate that. I also
25 wanted to bring to your attention to -- I wanted to ask
1 if you were aware of an incident that happened on July
2 12th, 1992, where a group of military police were
3 murdered in an area called Repovci, I think. Are you
4 aware of that?
5 A. I couldn't recall the date, but it was somewhere around
6 then, and I had heard that a group of military policemen
7 had got killed.
8 Q. In fact, you knew a few of those military policemen from
9 Konjic, didn't you?
10 A. Perhaps one might say that I knew a couple, maybe two of
11 them. I have never learned of all the names of the
12 people who were killed then.
13 Q. If you remember, those were considered very brutal
14 murders, weren't they?
15 A. I was not on the spot, nor did I have too much
16 information, nor did I dare at the time enquire. So
17 I just knew that an incident had occurred, that some
18 people had got killed. I know I knew one personally.
19 I think I knew another. I'm not quite sure, but I know
20 absolutely no details. I don't know who conducted the
21 investigation, what happened.
22 Q. Thank you. You also testified earlier that
23 occasionally a guard would come into Hangar 6. He had
24 probably been given orders to pick a few of the
25 detainees in there and take them out to work. Isn't
1 that correct?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Even though you were merely an exchange operator in your
4 service in the JNA, from your military experience you
5 know that as a rule the guards follow orders?
6 A. I don't know how the Army of Bosnia and Herzegovina was
7 organised, whether in their army somebody follows orders
8 or acts on his own initiative. If that is your
9 assumption, you may be right. That's all I can say.
10 I'm not sure at all what the method of command in the
11 Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina is. Maybe I shouldn't even
12 have made that assumption.
13 Q. Thank you. You are aware that some time before the
14 International Red Cross came to visit you in August that
15 Mr. Landzo left Celebici, didn't he? He was no longer
17 A. Maybe. I don't know the exact date when Mr. Landzo left
19 Q. Okay. Thank you. You also before the war knew a
20 gentleman -- and I don't want to repeat his surname here
21 in open court -- but you knew a gentleman named Miro,
22 who was a restaurant owner in Konjic, didn't you?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. And --
25 A. It's not "Miro". That was just the nickname.
1 Q. Yes. I was just using his nickname.
2 A. As you avoided the surname, the name is not correct
3 either. It is a nickname. I want to make sure that
4 we have the same person in mind.
5 Q. I think it is a person that you were aware that
6 Mr. Landzo worked for before the war; is that correct?
7 A. I learned later. I must have seen Landzo in that
8 restaurant a couple of times without paying any
9 attention to him at the time, but this was a very, very
10 good friend of mine, Mr. Miro, so that it is most
11 probable that that is where I saw Landzo. I learned
12 only later that he had worked there, because, you know,
13 if you go to a restaurant, if you see someone in a
14 restaurant, it need not necessarily mean that he's
15 working there. I didn't pay any attention to what
16 capacity -- to the capacity in which he was there.
17 Q. But while you were in Celebici, you found out that
18 Mr. Landzo was also friends with Miro, and so you two
19 became semi-friends. He never harmed you in Celebici,
20 did he, Mr. Landzo?
21 A. Absolutely correct. Mr. Landzo never did anything wrong
22 to me. I didn't say that he did. It is not
23 Mr. Landzo's fault that I came to Celebici. He didn't
24 bring me there. I'm just saying what I saw or heard.
25 It is quite correct that he did not inflict any harm on
1 me personally.
2 Q. I just wanted to ask you one final question. It's true
3 that, at the risk of himself being chastised or getting
4 in trouble, Mr. Landzo allowed your wife to come visit
5 with you in his dug-out while you were in Celebici,
6 didn't he?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Thank you, sir. I have no further questions. Thank
10 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Any re-examination?
11 MS. McHENRY: Just one question, your Honour.
12 Re-examination by Ms. McHenry
13 MS. McHENRY: Sir, with respect to the persons you saw who
14 were burned and otherwise had injuries from burns or
15 heated instruments, can you just please clarify which
16 incidents or which persons of what you have already
17 testified to did you yourself see what happened as it
18 happened and which you saw the injuries afterwards?
19 A. The incidents that I personally eyewitnessed was the one
20 with the ear of one of the prisoners with the hot red
21 pincers; then wrapping a fuse around the body of one of
22 the brothers; frequent kicking of people while they were
23 doing push-ups. What else did I mention? As for
24 burns, I didn't see the moment when the burns were
25 inflicted. I just saw those injuries, but not the
1 moment when they were done.
2 Q. Thank you. Your Honours, that was the only question
3 I had for re-examination.
4 I will just inform your Honours that the
5 Translation Section has provided me with corrected
6 translations, in which the word "her" has been switched
7 to "his". I have extra copies for Defence Counsel.
8 I also believe in the first sentence instead of saying:
9 "After interrogating the individual whose name
10 appears below ..."
11 they have changed it to say:
12 "After interviewing the below-mentioned individual
14 Those are the only changes. I have extra copies
15 and I would submit them as corrected translations for
16 the exhibit. The exhibit hasn't changed.
17 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Thank you very much. The most
18 offending aspect I think -- this is the masculine being
19 the feminine -- has been changed, I suppose. I think
20 this is the end of this witness' examination.
21 Therefore he is discharged.
22 The Trial Chamber will rise now and reassemble
23 tomorrow morning at 10.00.
24 (5.30 pm)
25 (Hearing adjourned until 10.00 tomorrow morning)