1 Wednesday, 16th July 1997
2 (10.00 am)
3 (In open session)
4 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Good morning, ladies and gentlemen, it
5 looks like we have a new witness this morning.
6 MR. TURONE: Good morning, your Honours. Yes, your
7 Honours, we have a new witness for today. For the
8 information of your Honours, we have only two witnesses
9 left for this week, because things went rather quickly,
10 and we will have only two witnesses in The Hague for
11 this week, the coming witness and the next one. The new
12 witness we are going to call today is Zoran Ninkovic.
13 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Can you invite him?
14 (Witness enters court)
15 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Please swear the witness.
16 Mr. Zoran Ninkovic (sworn)
17 Examined by Mr. Turone
18 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: May we have the appearances, please?
19 MR. TURONE: Yes, your Honour. I am Giuliano Turone,
20 prosecuting attorney. I am here with my co-counsel,
21 Ms. Teresa McHenry, and Ms. Elles van Dusschoten, case
23 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: May we have the appearances on the
24 Defence, please?
25 MS. RESIDOVIC (in interpretation): Good morning, your
1 Honours. I am Edina Residovic, Defence Counsel for
2 Mr. Zejnil Delalic. In the team with me is my
3 colleague, Eugene O'Sullivan, Professor from Canada.
4 MR. OLUJIC: Good morning, your Honours. I am Zeljko
5 Olujic, Defence Attorney for Mr. Zdravko Mucic. I am
6 from Croatia, and in the team with me is my co-counsel
7 Mr. Michael Greaves, the Defence Attorney from the United
8 Kingdom and Northern Ireland.
9 MR. KARABDIC (in interpretation): Good morning, your
10 Honours. I am Salih Karabdic, Defence Counsel for
11 Mr. Hazim Delic. My co-counsel is Mr. Tom Moran,
12 attorney from Houston, Texas.
13 MR. ACKERMAN: Good morning, your Honours. I'm John
14 Ackerman, appearing here on behalf of Mr. Esad Landzo.
15 My co-counsel is Ms. Cynthia McMurrey from the United
16 States. Thank you.
17 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Thank you very much.
18 MR. TURONE: May I proceed, your Honour?
19 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Yes, you can.
20 MR. TURONE: Thank you.
21 Good morning, sir. Would you please state your
22 full name for the court?
23 A. (In interpretation): My name is Zoran Ninkovic.
24 Q. What is your date of birth?
25 A. I was born 27th December 1959.
1 Q. And what is your ethnic group?
2 A. I'm Serb by nationality.
3 Q. Where were you born?
4 A. I was born in the Konjic municipality.
5 Q. Mr. Ninkovic, what education did you receive? I mean,
6 what kind of schools did you attend?
7 A. I finished the elementary school in Konjic and the
8 secondary school in Mostar.
9 Q. What was your profession in 1992?
10 A. I was auto mechanic and I worked for Konjictrans in
12 Q. Did you remain in Konjic in the months of April and May
14 A. In May and April of 1992 I was on the territory of the
15 Konjic municipality.
16 Q. I mean, did you remain in Konjic town in those two
18 A. I was in Donje Selo until May 15th and after May 15th
19 I was in Bradina.
20 Q. Can you say if there was any specific reason why you
21 moved to Bradina?
22 A. The particular reason was that my mother-in-law lived up
23 there, that is the mother of my wife lived there.
24 Q. You say approximately the date when you moved to
25 Bradina. Can you repeat that to me?
1 A. I left around May 15th, 1992 from Donje Selo. I left
2 Donje Selo and on that same day I arrived in Bradina.
3 Q. In Bradina -- where did you live in Bradina? Which
4 house did you live in in Bradina? Your mother-in-law's
6 A. I lived with my mother-in-law in Gornja Bradina.
7 Q. Mr. Ninkovic, can you say on which day was the village of
8 Bradina affected by military action or shellings,
9 something like that?
10 A. The shellings took place on 26th May 1992.
11 Q. Where did you spend the night after the shelling? Did
12 you move to a safer place?
13 A. The night between 26th and 27th May I spent in a hamlet
14 called Barakusa where there was a house which was safer,
15 because it had a very thick concrete slab on top.
16 Q. Is Barakusa part of Bradina?
17 A. Yes. Barakusa is part -- it's a hamlet of some ten
18 houses in Upper Bradina.
19 Q. How many people were there spending the night in this
20 house in Barakusa?
21 A. This house had two floors and there were about 100
22 persons there, including men, women, children and the
23 elderly, all together on these two floors.
24 Q. 100 people in the two floors of this house, is that
25 correct, about?
1 A. Yes, that's correct.
2 Q. Mr. Ninkovic, did you personally know a man named Petko
4 A. Yes, I did.
5 Q. How did you know him? What kind of a relationship had
6 you with him?
7 A. Petko Gligorevic was my mother-in-law's first neighbour.
8 Q. Did Petko Gligorevic also spend that night in that same
9 house in Barakusa?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Now did you personally know a man named Miroslav
13 A. Yes, I did know him.
14 Q. And how did you know him?
15 A. I knew him from the street, from the restaurants, from
16 the cafes.
17 Q. All right. Thank you. Did Miroslav Vujicic also
18 spend that night in the same house in Barakusa?
19 A. Yes. He spent the night there, together with his wife
20 and his child.
21 Q. All right. Thank you. Now, sir, what happened to you
22 the following morning, I mean the morning of May 27th?
23 A. On 27th May a group arrived in the morning.
24 Q. A group of whom?
25 A. A group of members of the Muslim army led by Mitke
2 Q. How many were these people approximately?
3 A. There were about ten of them.
4 Q. Did they have any uniform?
5 A. Some wore uniforms and maybe one or two did not wear
6 them. They were armed but wore no uniforms.
7 Q. On the ones who had a uniform, did you observe any
8 insignia on the uniforms?
9 A. They wore uniforms. I did not notice the insignia.
10 Q. All right. What did these soldiers do when they
11 arrived at this house in Barakusa?
12 A. They ordered us all to come out of the house. They
13 separated women and children and the men stayed there on
14 this village road as they came out, and obviously I was
15 there with them as I came out.
16 Q. How were you treated by these soldiers on this occasion?
17 A. They were telling us that we were Cetniks, that we
18 wanted to attack them, to kill them, and things like
20 Q. Were you told why you were being arrested on this
22 A. On that occasion we were not told anything about why we
23 were being arrested. I guess because we were Serbs.
24 Q. Were Petko Gligorevic and Miroslav Vujicic arrested on
25 the same occasion as you that morning?
1 A. Yes. , they were.
2 Q. By the way, Mr. Ninkovic, do you personally know another
3 man named Radoslav Vujicic?
4 A. Yes, I know him.
5 Q. How do you know him? Which relationship do you have
6 with him?
7 A. Since he worked in the garage of Sipad Konjic and I did
8 the same kind of work at Konjictrans, we would visit
9 each other. We would swap auto parts. He would come
10 to my place of work and I would come over to his.
11 Q. Is Radoslav a relative of Miroslav Vujicic?
12 A. Radoslav is a brother of Miroslav Vujicic.
13 Q. Was Radoslav Vujicic also arrested in the same occasion,
14 that same morning?
15 A. Yes, he was arrested.
16 Q. Now, Mr. Ninkovic, what happened to you after you were
17 arrested in Barakusa?
18 A. I was brought in front of Mico Kuljanin's restaurant and
19 from there they escorted us on foot to beyond the
20 tunnel, to the butcher Zelenovic. They took
21 everything. They took everything. They made us take
22 all the valuables out of our pockets. They said if
23 they found anything with anyone they would kill them.
24 That's where the mistreatment started. We were hit
25 with the rifle butts, with some wooden sticks, and after
1 some of this mistreatment we were put on a truck.
2 Q. Can you say approximately how many prisoners were put on
3 that truck?
4 A. About 75 prisoners were put on this truck.
5 Q. You say that they took your valuables on the occasion of
6 your arrest. What did they take exactly from you? Do
7 you remember?
8 A. I myself had some money, I had a wrist watch. They
9 took my jacket off. I had to leave it behind. I was
10 in an undershirt and pants.
11 Q. By the way, did you ever get your property back later on
12 or not?
13 A. No, I did not.
14 Q. All right. After being put in this truck together with
15 other 75 people could you notice whether Petko
16 Gligorevic and Miroslav Vujicic were also on the same
18 A. It was so tightly packed on this truck, the people were
19 so tightly packed, that at that time I did not notice
21 Q. But anyway they were part of the 75 people who were
22 arrested with you, you say; is that correct?
23 A. Yes. Yes, that's correct.
24 Q. With this truck where were you brought right after
25 getting into this truck?
1 A. After we were put on the truck we were taken to the
2 military facility of the former JNA in Celebici.
3 Q. Can you say approximately at what time did you arrive at
4 Celebici that day?
5 A. Approximately 11 o'clock in the morning.
6 Q. That was, you said, May 27th; is that correct?
7 A. Yes, on 27th May.
8 Q. Now, Mr. Ninkovic, just to get an overview and to give
9 right away an idea to us, can you say immediately how
10 long did you remain in Celebici in all?
11 A. Altogether with that day, that day?
12 Q. Yes.
13 A. That day from 11.00 in the morning, first dusk, 7.00,
14 7.30. When they took us to the hangar, it was growing
16 Q. I'm sorry. My question is another one. I wanted to get
17 a general overview immediately and just give right away
18 an idea to the Trial Chamber on how many days in all you
19 spent in Celebici, and then we will go back to details?
20 A. Altogether I spent nine days in Celebici.
21 Q. All right. Going back to the day of your arrival at
22 Celebici, so 27th May, did the truck stop at the
23 entrance of the camp or inside the camp?
24 A. The truck came to a stop inside of the camp.
25 Q. Would you now tell us in detail what happened to you
1 right after your arrival inside the camp in Celebici?
2 A. When the truck arrived in Celebici the canvass was
3 rolled up and the gate was opened and on -- there were
4 four or five soldiers on each side waiting for us and
5 they had -- they beat us with some sticks and rifle
6 butts, and we had -- we were made to come off the truck
7 and line up against some concrete wall, which was a
8 couple of metres high, and we were made to lean against
9 -- put our hands up against the wall and we were -- the
10 threat was made that we would be killed if we lowered
11 our hands, and then the mistreatment started with blows
12 with the rifle butts and with -- and groups would arrive
13 and they would sort of beat each individual prisoner,
14 and I was one among them.
15 Q. So can you say in which position were these prisoners
16 along the wall? Do you mean face to the wall?
17 A. All prisoners were facing the wall, because it was
18 ordered that nobody should turn around or put their
19 hands down.
20 Q. So you were face to the wall together with the other
21 ones. May I ask you whether there were more prisoners on your
22 right or your left along this line along the wall?
23 A. There were more prisoners to the right. On the left
24 there were maybe about 10, 11 prisoners.
25 Q. Can you describe in some detail how was this beating
1 carried on by these soldiers?
2 A. The soldiers went from one prisoner to the next and they
3 were sort of -- they determined how much they were going
4 to beat each one, so that they beat up every individual
5 prisoner, beat them up.
6 Q. How long did this collective beating last?
7 A. This mass beating went on from 11.00 in the morning
8 until 7.00, 7.30 in the evening, when it was growing
9 dark and you couldn't see any more.
10 Q. Were there several rounds of beating during this time
11 between approximately noon and 7.00 pm?
12 A. I myself was only beaten once.
13 Q. How did the soldiers proceed in this beating and these
14 hours of beating? Did they start from the end of the
15 line, proceed along the line and then again in the other
16 direction? I want some details about that and how that
17 could take so many hours?
18 A. They started at the top to my right, and when they would
19 finish they would come back to the top from my right and
20 do it again.
21 Q. Did the soldiers say anything while beating you?
22 A. At one point a voice could be heard somewhere above us
23 asking certain questions, which we answered in a chorus:
24 "Yes, we will. Yes, we will". Finally the word --
25 the voice said: "Will you rape the boulas, the Muslim
1 women?" So we answered: "Yes". The response was: "You
2 will? Now you will see what will happen to you". Then
3 they cursed us and started beating us again.
4 Q. What was the reason for answering "yes" on this
6 A. The reason was the fear that we felt, and I remember
7 this particular question but I don't remember all of
8 them. There were other questions that we had to answer
9 with "yes". This particular question: "Will you rape
10 the boula?", I didn't myself at first know what the word
11 meant, so we all said: "Yes, we will". The soldiers
12 then started all over again to beat the prisoners.
13 Q. So you say that there were different rounds of beating
14 back and forth along the line, and approximately how
15 long did every round of beating take, if you can say
16 this approximately?
17 A. I personally, when I was being beaten, I was hit twice
18 with a wooden pole, a very heavy pole, but I couldn't
19 say what it was. I think it was a wooden pole.
20 Q. Did you receive these two blows right at the beginning
21 of this beating?
22 A. Yes, when this first series of mistreatment started,
23 that was when I was mistreated.
24 Q. On which part of your body were you beaten on this first
1 A. One blow on my left shoulder and the other one on the
2 right side of my back.
3 Q. Was there a time during the beating when you could
4 recognise any of the soldiers taking part in the
6 A. Yes. At one point when the soldiers appeared then some
7 prisoners before me asked -- prisoners left of me asked
8 if they could have some water. There was some water
9 there. When he reached me, I asked and he said
10 I could. Going towards the water I recognised Ramiz
12 Q. Did you know him from before?
13 A. Yes, I did. Ramiz Cibo was employed as a supervisor
14 in Konjictrans, the same company I worked in.
15 Q. Was he the man who allowed you to go to drink?
16 A. Yes, he was.
17 Q. Was the drinking water on your right or on your left?
18 I mean, in which direction did you move in order to go
19 to drink water?
20 A. I went to the left, left from the place where I stood.
21 Q. So was this drinking water far away on the left?
22 A. No. It was just at the end of the line left of the
23 column of prisoners. As the prisoners were standing,
24 left of them, at the end.
25 Q. So when you moved to the left in order to go to drink,
1 could you see anything particular concerning any of the
2 prisoners on your left?
3 A. To my left among those 10 or 11 people there was a man
4 lying on the concrete. He was not standing; he was
5 lying. I saw him with my own eyes lying on the
6 concrete. He wasn't standing; he was lying down.
7 Q. Do you know who this person was?
8 A. As we entered the hangar, we learned it was Petko
9 Gligorevic, because just when we were entering the
10 hangar, two of his brothers, Nenad and Predo Gligorevic
11 were there.
12 Q. How far from you was Petko Gligorevic in the line on
13 your left?
14 A. Roughly number -- he was the fifth or sixth man to my
15 left, because we were so fearful that it was impossible
16 to count exactly how many people there were. We were
17 so terrified.
18 Q. Can you say very approximately at what time of the day
19 did that happen, when you first saw Petko Gligorevic on
20 the ground?
21 A. This was somewhere in the afternoon, maybe an hour or
22 two, because when one is standing against the wall with
23 arms raised, one is terrified. You daren't look left
24 or right. You have to look in front of you. So it's
25 difficult to tell exactly, but I think it was in the
1 afternoon hours.
2 Q. Were you brought back to the same position in the line
3 after drinking?
4 A. Yes, I was brought back to the same place where I stood
5 before I went to drink water.
6 Q. Did you see again Petko Gligorevic on the ground when
7 you went back to your position after drinking?
8 A. Yes. I saw him when I was going to have a drink and
9 when I came back, when Ramiz was bringing me back to the
10 same position where I stood before.
11 Q. Was Petko Gligorevic in the same position as you saw him
12 while going to drink water?
13 A. Yes. He was in the same position. The man was lying
14 on the ground, on the concrete.
15 Q. Mr. Ninkovic, during the time you moved towards the
16 drinking water on your left and coming back to your
17 position, could you notice whether Miroslav Vujicic was
18 possibly one of the other prisoners on your left or not?
19 A. No. He wasn't on my left.
20 Q. Could you anyway notice at that time, going or coming
21 back from the water, the position of Miroslav Vujicic
22 anywhere along the line of prisoners?
23 A. No.
24 Q. By the way, did you have -- did you ever have any
25 occasion to see Miroslav Vujicic again any time after
1 your arrival at Celebici?
2 A. No.
3 Q. Do you personally remember which was the last time you
4 personally saw Miroslav Vujicic alive?
5 A. I saw Miroslav Vujicic in the night between 26th and
6 27th in the cellar of the house in Barakusa with his
7 wife and child.
8 Q. Okay. Thank you. Now, Mr. Ninkovic, again when you
9 moved to the drinking water on your left and when you
10 came back to your position at the wall, did you
11 recognise any other soldier or guard being present in
12 the area of the beating?
13 A. Coming back after having had some water, in my field of
14 vision I saw Hazim Delic, who was on crutches. He had
15 one of his legs in plaster.
16 Q. What was Mr. Delic doing?
17 A. He was standing.
18 Q. Can you say where was he exactly? I mean, with respect
19 to the line of prisoners.
20 A. He was behind the line of prisoners.
21 Q. At what distance from the line of prisoners
23 A. Approximately some 15 metres from the back. Between the
24 backs of the prisoners and himself there was about 15
1 Q. Did you know Mr. Delic from before?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. How did you know him?
4 A. I knew him also from the street by sight and going to
5 Sipad Prenj, where he worked as a locksmith in the
6 garage of the company Sipad Prenj. So going there
7 I would see him.
8 Q. Okay. Mr. Ninkovic, going back to this collective
9 beating at the wall, were you personally beaten again
10 after you were allowed to go to drink or in any of the
11 following series of beating?
12 A. When I was coming back after drinking water, I asked
13 Ramiz Cibo, as I knew him well, I asked him: "What are
14 you doing?", but he had two men accompanying him whom I
15 didn't know, and one of them hit me with a rifle butt
16 and told me to go back to my place against the wall and
17 to lift up my arms as high as I could.
18 Q. After that did you receive any more beatings or not --
19 at the wall, I mean, facing -- standing at the wall?
20 A. I was not beaten.
21 Q. Okay. After you went back from drinking water to your
22 position against the wall, did anything particular
23 happen; I mean during the following series of beatings?
24 A. On the right the beatings continued. I concluded that
25 they must have selected some people and beaten them
1 more. At one point a voice could be heard saying:
2 "I can't stand this any more. Don't beat me any
3 more", and then a couple of seconds after these words a
4 shot was heard. I was so afraid that at that moment I
5 didn't know what had happened.
6 Q. So you had a shot on your right-hand side. Can you say
7 approximately how far from you?
8 A. The shot could be heard to my right. It was close
9 because I could hear the shot very loudly.
10 Q. So, Mr. Ninkovic, you said that this collective beating
11 finished at about 7 o'clock pm; is that correct?
12 A. Yes, somewhere between 7.00 and 7.30. It was May, it
13 was getting dark, so when they stopped and when they led
14 us towards the hangar, it must have been around that
16 Q. So you are saying you were led towards the hangar.
17 Which kind of a hangar? Where were you brought then?
18 A. We were lined up in a column two by two and we were
19 taken to the hangar, a large iron structure like a vast
21 Q. Did that hangar have a number or not? Do you know the
22 number of this hangar?
23 A. The number was the so-called Number 6.
24 Q. All right. When you left the wall in order to reach
25 Hangar 6, did you have a chance to see again Petko
1 Gligorevic lying on the ground or not?
2 A. No, I couldn't see him.
3 Q. Do you mean the body of Petko Gligorevic had been
5 A. I don't know whether he was removed.
6 Q. Anyway, you didn't see it any more. Did you have any
7 other chance to see Petko Gligorevic after that or his
9 A. No.
10 Q. So when you reached Hangar 6, was the hangar empty or
11 were there already other prisoners inside?
12 A. The hangar was empty. We were the first to enter the
14 Q. Where did you sit inside the hangar?
15 A. I sat, when you entered the door, the left end of the
16 building, left of the iron door, because the door
17 stretched across the whole front of the hangar. So
18 I sat on the left-hand side of the wall, somewhere in
19 the middle.
20 Q. Can you say who was sitting close to you?
21 A. Baco Kuljanin; then Nedeljko Samoukovic; Dragan
22 Djordjic; Kuljanin nicknamed Futa; Stevan Gligorevic.
23 They were mostly Gligorevics. These were the four or
24 five people to my left and to my right when we were
25 sitting in the hangar.
1 Q. Did you see Radoslav Vujicic inside the hangar?
2 A. Yes. That same evening after we had entered the hangar
3 I saw Radoslav Vujicic, who was walking and crying, and
4 who kept repeating: "What have they done? They killed
5 my brother".
6 Q. Where was Radoslav Vujicic sitting inside the hangar?
7 A. He sat to my right inside the hangar.
8 Q. So was he also one of the persons close to you, sitting
9 near you?
10 A. Yes, in the same row as me.
11 Q. Can you say in more detail what did Radoslav Vujicic say
12 about the killing of his brother, Miroslav?
13 A. That first night after entering the hangar he kept
14 crying non-stop and saying: "Look what they did to me.
15 They killed my brother", and he kept repeating the same
16 sentence. He was crying. He was absolutely
17 distraught, and he kept repeating this same sentence.
18 Q. Did he or any of the prisoners you mentioned sitting
19 near you say anything more about the circumstances of
20 the death of Miroslav Vujicic?
21 A. Those who were sitting next to me, no-one knew anything
22 more specific.
23 Q. Did Radoslav Vujicic or any of the prisoners sitting
24 with you say anything about the shot you heard while
25 being on line?
1 A. Everybody said they heard the shot and everyone
2 concluded that that was how Miroslav Gligorevic had been
3 killed, because he wasn't there amongst us and his
4 brother Radoslav kept repeating these words practically
5 all night. They did this terrible thing to me. They
6 killed my brother".
7 Q. For the record I think you said Miroslav Gligorevic.
8 You meant Miroslav Vujicic?
9 A. Miroslav Vujicic. Miroslav Vujicic, yes.
10 Q. Of course. Mr. Ninkovic, do you have any knowledge of
11 any other prisoner who lost his life after the beating
12 you have been describing?
13 A. After the beating a man whose name I don't know, an
14 elderly man, who was brought to the hangar by one of the
15 prisoners, he was there for about three days with us in
16 the hangar, and after three days the guards came. A
17 man in a white coat -- I concluded it must have been a
18 doctor; I didn't know him -- and then the soldiers took
19 out the body of this man. I really don't know what the
20 man's name was.
21 Q. So approximately how long did this old man, this body,
22 remain in the hangar?
23 A. It was there for about three days.
24 Q. Was this man put on a particular place inside the
1 A. He was placed in the direction of the door, on the same
2 side where the door was, and he was at the end of the
3 line sitting against the wall. There was one wall and
4 the other wall and the steel doors that stretched along
5 the length of the hangar.
6 Q. Could you observe this body with some attention and can
7 you describe it?
8 A. No, I didn't look.
9 Q. Did you notice any time whether this body, this man, had
10 any movement or was motionless?
11 A. The man, when he was brought in, he was taken out of a
12 wheelbarrow and placed on the floor, and he never
13 moved. If I had seen him get up and sit down or
14 something ... I didn't. He was lying down all the
15 time, motionless.
16 Q. So did you hear him moaning or emitting any noise, any
17 sound or not?
18 A. On the Thursday one could hear him. That was on the
19 28th, the morning. He was brought in in the night
20 between 27th and 28th. On the 28th you could hear his
21 moans. After that I couldn't hear him any more.
22 Q. All right. Going back now to the first moment you
23 entered Hangar 6 and were sitting there with the
24 prisoners you mentioned a while ago, did any of these
25 prisoners sitting together with you say anything about
1 the fate of Petko Gligorevic?
2 A. There were two brothers of his, Vojo and Petko
3 Gligorevic. They were sitting against the left wall.
4 Q. Petko Gligorevic?
5 A. Predo. Predo. Predo Gligorevic and the two brothers
6 said that they had no brother any more, that he had been
8 Q. All right, Mr. Ninkovic. Did the number -- you said you
9 arrived in a hangar which was empty and you were
10 approximately 75 people. So did the number of
11 prisoners in Hangar 6 have any variation after that
12 period, the first period of time -- I mean during your
13 stay there, I mean?
14 A. Yes. The number increased. They were bringing in more
16 Q. Can you explain in much detail when did that happen and
17 how many people?
18 A. One evening when Radoslav Vujicic was beaten up somebody
19 called him out from the door. It was night-time.
20 Radoslav Vujicic was beaten up. After the beating,
21 which lasted some 20 minutes, he was thrown back into
22 the hangar like a sack. He was calling out and begging
23 for help to reach the wall, because he couldn't move on
24 his own. Then we could hear at the same time blunt
25 blows outside and moans, because somebody else was being
1 beaten up. So then I and Baco Kuljanin got up and we
2 managed to drag Radoslav Vujicic next to us, because he
3 was in such a bad condition that wherever we touched
4 him, he would cry out: "Don't touch me. Don't touch
5 me", so that we only just managed to pull him to the
6 wall. At that moment somebody else was thrown in and
7 we didn't know who it was at that time. Afterwards
8 another six or seven prisoners were thrown in.
9 Q. Can you mention any names of these five or six new
10 guests of Hangar 6?
11 A. In the morning when it had dawned we saw that Mirko
12 Dordic had come, Mrkajic Mrki, known as Mrki, a football
13 player, Kisa Kuljanin, Zuza.
14 Q. All right. Were you ever interrogated by military
15 investigators while you were in Celebici?
16 A. Yes, I was called out once and Zovko Kuhar and Subasic
17 interrogated me.
18 Q. Could you say very approximately when did that happen
19 during the period of time you were in Celebici?
20 A. After about six or seven days.
21 Q. After, yes. Where in the camp did that happen?
22 A. They had that command building there and we were taken
23 down the road from the hangar, five of us. That's how
24 they separated us, in fives, and we were taken there.
25 Outside there was some kind of a table that was put
1 outside. It was summer. This Zovko Kuhar and Subasic
2 questioned me there.
3 Q. Do you remember or do you know who called you out of the
4 hangar in order to take you to the command building?
5 A. A guard called me out, Kravar. His last name is Spago,
6 first name Enid.
7 Q. So Zovko Kuhar and another person were interrogating
8 you; is that correct?
9 A. Yes. Zovko Kuhar, the former investigator of the MUP,
10 and Subasic.
11 Q. Were they in uniform?
12 A. Yes, they were.
13 Q. How were you treated during this interrogation?
14 A. I was not mistreated.
15 Q. During this interrogation were you accused of anything
17 A. Specifically I was accused of being on the side of the
18 Cetniks, that I was against the State of Bosnia and
20 Q. Did you sign any record of statement, any piece of
21 paper, after this interrogation?
22 A. I did sign some small record, because I was not
23 interrogated very much, maybe ten minutes in all.
24 Q. Could you read the paper you signed or was that read out
25 to you?
1 A. No, it was not read out to me. I was just given it and
2 shown the place where to sign and that was all.
3 Q. What did they ask you? Do you remember the specific
4 questions they asked you?
5 A. They asked me why I went to Bradina, why did I leave the
6 town, why didn't I stay in town, and whether I had
8 Q. You were talking a while ago about a mistreatment
9 suffered by Radoslav Kuljanin -- I mean -- pardon --
10 Radoslav Vujicic?
11 A. Vujicic, yes.
12 Q. The same night, when five or six new prisoners came.
13 Could you say do you know who called or took Radoslav
14 Vujicic out of the hangar?
15 A. I can't. I don't know who did, because they were
16 calling out from the other side of the door, and when
17 they take the person out they close the door. From my
18 vantage point it is impossible to see.
19 Q. How long could you hear blows and screams outside?
20 A. Between 15 and 20 minutes.
21 Q. Did you -- could you see who was the person who returned
22 Radoslav Vujicic into the hangar?
23 A. No, it was dark in the hangar. You couldn't see a
24 metre in front of you when the door was closed. We
25 couldn't see each other.
1 Q. Sure. So you said that you and another friend of yours
2 helped Radoslav Vujicic to go back to his position?
3 A. (Witness nodded.)
4 Q. Could you observe which kind of mistreatment of injuries
5 he had at that time?
6 JUDGE JAN: He gave the answer to that. Every part of his
7 body was hurting.
8 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.
9 JUDGE JAN: He has already said that. Every part of his
10 body was hurting.
11 MR. TURONE: I want to ask him if he knows better and has to
12 give us some specific description of any specific part
13 of the body.
14 JUDGE JAN: It was night-time. It was night-time. Every
15 part of his body was hurting.
16 MR. TURONE: Well, if you want me to withdraw the question.
17 JUDGE JAN: Carry on. I was just pointing it out. It
18 was already on the record.
19 MR. TURONE: Do you have any knowledge about some specific
20 injuries of Radoslav Vujicic coming back into the hangar
21 that night?
22 A. That night we couldn't see anything because it was
23 dark. In the morning, when the day broke, when you
24 could see in the hangar, Radoslav Vujicic was in such a
25 poor state that he couldn't move. His both arms -- we
1 could see the white of the bone on the forearms, on both
3 Q. Could you observe any other mistreatment of any other
4 prisoner during the days you were in Hangar 6 suffered
5 by any other?
6 A. That same night Zeljko Klimenta, called Keljo, was
8 Q. Was he called out of the hangar too?
9 A. No, he was not in the hangar with us. He had been
10 brought in, I don't know from where.
11 Q. So what could you observe personally of the mistreatment
12 suffered by him?
13 A. I saw him the same morning and he was in a poor
14 condition. He relieved himself in his pants. He
15 couldn't get up, so he just had urinated at the place
16 where he was lying.
17 Q. All right. What role did you observe, if you observed
18 anything, what role did you observe Delic having in the
19 Celebici camp?
20 A. Delic had a role that whenever he would come into the
21 hangar we would have to get up and salute him.
22 Q. How frequently did you see him inside Celebici Camp
23 during your stay there?
24 A. He would come in every day to the hangar.
25 Q. Can you say what to do -- to do what, I mean?
1 A. He would call out prisoners and on one occasion -- this
2 was during the day, 1.00 or 2 o'clock -- he came in.
3 He asked Radoslav Vujicic, he said. "Brother, who
4 killed you?". There was some kind of wooden crate for
5 weapons, for rifles. He gave Radoslav something to
6 drink. I know that there was something that was in a
7 vial. The second time he started calling out prisoners
8 according to some order -- I don't know what order that
9 was -- and they were taken out of the hangar. At that
10 time I did not know where they were going. Another
11 group of about 15, 16 prisoners left after that and
12 I was in the third group. I was called out. I was
13 approximately 7th or 8th to be called out.
14 Q. I understand you are talking about the last day in
15 Celebici. We'll talk about that later on.
16 A. (Witness nodded.)
17 Q. So do you have any knowledge about -- of who was the
18 Commander of the Celebici camp?
19 A. At that time I did not know who was the Commander. The
20 first commander, who introduced himself as a commander,
21 was Rale Musinovic.
22 Q. When did you see him?
23 A. I saw him on the 28th, the next day, the day after I was
25 Q. Did you see him on any other occasion besides on the
2 A. I saw him on that day when I was in Celebici.
3 Q. Yes. What about who was the Commander of the Celebici
4 Camp in general? Do you know anything about any other
6 A. I later found out that Commander Pavo was Zdravko Mucic.
7 Q. Did you ever see Mr. Mucic in the camp?
8 A. I saw him for the first time on 6th June.
9 Q. Do you remember -- can you describe this occasion on
10 June 6th when you saw Mr. Mucic in the camp the first
12 A. I was talking about that moment before we were called
13 out. I was in the third group and Delic was calling us
14 out. We were coming out one by one through the door,
15 and in front of the door there was a van. To the right
16 was Pavo standing and on the other side was Buric, who
17 was the driver. At that time we were climbing into the
18 van one by one and that was the first time that I saw
20 Q. Did he wear a uniform?
21 A. Yes, he did.
22 Q. Did he talk to you?
23 A. No.
24 Q. Did you know Mucic from before the war?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. Can you explain how come you knew Mucic from before?
2 A. There were very few people in Konjic who did not know
3 Pavo Mucic, so I knew him. I knew him from the street,
4 from the cafes.
5 Q. Yes. So you didn't see him any other time in the camp
6 (sic) but that on June 6th?
7 A. That was the first time I saw him. I did see him on
8 other occasions, about two or three times.
9 Q. Do you mean in Celebici or where?
10 A. No, not in Celebici. I saw him in Celebici for the
11 first time on June 6th, in Celebici, when I was
12 transferred from Celebici to the Sports Hall in Musala.
13 Q. So was that the first time and the last time, or was
14 there a second time you saw Mucic in Celebici?
15 MR. GREAVES: He has answered that question. He has
16 answered that question.
17 MR. TURONE: All right. Mr. Ninkovic, did you -- do you
18 know who was Mr. Mucic's superior?
19 A. No.
20 Q. So you were talking about this occasion about
21 June 6th. Was that the day when you left Celebici?
22 A. Yes.
23 THE INTERPRETER: May the witness' microphone be turned back
24 on, please.
25 MR. TURONE: Okay. That's done. So you were giving us
1 the account of your transfer from Celebici to Musala.
2 Can you give us a very detailed account of that after
3 Delic called you out from the hangar and what happened
4 with that van you saw?
5 A. While being called out by Delic, we would come out. As
6 our name and last name were called out, we would come
7 out through the door. In front there was a van of Fiat
8 make. The door was open. On the right-hand side was
9 Pavo Mucic and on the left was the driver, whose last
10 name was Buric.
11 Q. Did you enter the van?
12 JUDGE JAN: Of course he did. Of course he did.
13 MR. TURONE: Could you please go on in your account. What
15 A. And we sat in. They closed the door to the van. We
16 didn't know where we were going. I didn't know where
17 I was going. When they opened up the door, I found
18 myself at Musala, in front of the Sports Hall. Mucic
19 got out, opened the door and we entered the Sports Hall,
20 where we were put in locker rooms. There were rooms
21 there, like locker rooms.
22 Q. Was Mr. Mucic sitting in the front of this van during the
24 A. Yes, he did.
25 Q. Did he say anything before the drive or during the drive
1 or right after arriving?
2 A. No, he didn't say anything during the drive. The front
3 and the back of this van had a partition. There was a
4 glass partition, so we couldn't hear each other, and
5 even if he was talking something we wouldn't be able to
6 hear him.
7 Q. All right. So when were you released from any kind of
9 A. I was released on 31st August from any kind of
10 detention. In fact, I was released from Musala.
11 Q. And did you receive a release document on that day,
12 August 30th?
13 A. I did receive a document saying that I was being
14 released from detention. Some 30 -- 30 something
15 prisoners were called out and ones were being assigned
16 to go to Brdjani and the other group was going to go to
17 another village, and when my turn came, and Mucic was
18 there, I told him: "Mr. Pavo, I don't want to go to Donje
19 Selo". There was part of Konjic called Varda. He took
20 the piece of paper and said: "What street?" I said:
21 "Maksim Kujundzic". He said: "Fuck Maksim Kujundzic.
22 Go on foot", and I stayed there then. That was the
23 last time I saw Pavo during my stay in camp.
24 Q. Did the release document -- was the release document
25 given to you by whom?
1 A. Pavo Mucic gave it to me and in his hand, in his own
2 handwriting, he wrote down "Maksim Kujundzic".
3 Q. Which was the address you gave him?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. May I ask the assistance of the usher to show a document
6 to the witness which might be marked for identification,
7 I believe with number 159, please. We have copies for
8 your Honours. Defence lawyers have already this
9 document. (Handed).
10 Can you see the document, Mr. Ninkovic? Can you
11 identify this document?
12 A. Yes, I do see it. That's the document.
13 Q. The document you received by Mr. Mucic?
14 A. Yes, the document I received from Mr. Mucic and what it
15 says here:
16 "Maksim K, 28 Konjic".
17 That is what he wrote down in his own handwriting.
18 Q. You can see that your year of birth here is indicated as
19 1955. Is that a mistake?
20 A. Yes, that is an error, because I was born in 1959.
21 There in the Red Cross registration card the birth date
22 is correct.
23 Q. Yes. So, your Honours, I would tender this document for
24 admission and --
25 JUDGE JAN: But one is not a translation of the other. It
1 is a different format altogether. This is a different
2 translation -- different document.
3 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.
4 JUDGE JAN: The formats are different entirely.
5 MR. TURONE: The document was probably cut badly, because
6 there is also this part.
7 JUDGE JAN: The date of birth is right on top. I'm not
8 sure if the same document has been translated.
9 MR. TURONE: The upper part of the photocopy actually is
10 wrong. Probably we should eliminate this first part,
11 which is part of another document, which is the Red
12 Cross document. The real document is this one.
13 JUDGE JAN: This is not a translation of this one.
14 MR. TURONE: The translation is a translation of this one.
15 Again I see there is the same mistake of the document of
16 yesterday. There is "her" instead of "his". We will
17 also correct this in a better translation, your
18 Honours. So we tender this for admission, Exhibit 159,
19 and that is the end of my examination-in-chief, your
20 Honours. Thank you very much.
21 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Okay. I don't think I need call for
22 any cross-examination now, since we are breaking for 30
23 minutes. We will have our 30 minutes break. When we
24 return, then we'll start cross-examination.
25 (11.30 am)
1 (Short break)
3 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Will you please invite the witness?
4 Is the Defence sure about its cross-examination
5 pattern? Is there anything to cross-examine?
6 MS. RESIDOVIC (in interpretation): Your Honour, the Defence
7 of Zejnil Delalic has no questions to put to this
9 MR. OLUJIC (in interpretation): Your Honours, the Defence
10 of Zdravko Mucic has no questions for the witness.
11 MR. KARABDIC (in interpretation): Your Honours, the Defence
12 of Mr. Hazim Delic has no questions for the witness.
13 MR. ACKERMAN: And we have no questions, your Honour.
14 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: I thought as much. They had a
15 different impression. Where is the witness so that we
16 will formally tell him he is discharged
17 (Witness re-enters court)
18 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Kindly remind him he is on his oath.
19 THE REGISTRAR: I remind you that you are still testifying
20 under oath?
21 A. Yes.
22 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: It seems there is no cross-examination
23 for him and there is consequently no re-examination,
24 except you need him for other things. You don't need
1 MR. TURONE: All right, your Honour. Thank you.
2 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Let's have your next witness, if you
3 have any.
4 (Witness withdrew from court)
5 MR. TURONE: Your Honour, we have to ask for a recess
6 because we are not yet ready with our next witness. We
7 should respectfully ask your Honours to allow us to
8 bring our next witness after the lunch break, because we
9 are not yet ready for the next witness.
10 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Is this a trick on you by the Defence
11 or what? I think it makes life easier for everyone.
12 So we will have to recess until 2.30.
13 MR. TURONE: Thank you, your Honour.
14 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: The Tribunal will now adjourn until
16 (12.10 pm)
17 (Luncheon adjournment)
1 (2.30 pm)
2 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Good afternoon, ladies and gentlemen:
3 are you now ready with your witness?
4 MS. McHENRY: Yes, we are ready. I will point out that
5 this is a protected witness and so the courtroom needs
6 to be set up. The witness is Mr. D.
7 (Witness enters court)
8 Witness D (sworn)
9 Examined by Ms McHenry
10 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Can we have appearances please?
11 MS. McHENRY: For the Prosecution, your Honour, I am Teresa
12 McHenry and I am here with co-counsel, Mr. Giuliano
13 Turone and our case manager, Miss Elles van
15 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: The Defence, please.
16 MS. RESIDOVIC (in interpretation): Your Honours, I'm Edina
17 Residovic, Defence Counsel for Mr. Zejnil Delalic. With
18 me is my colleague, Eugene O'Sullivan, Professor of law
19 from Canada.
20 MR. OLUJIC (in interpretation): Your Honours, I am Zeljko
21 Olujic, attorney from Croatia, Defence Counsel for
22 Mr. Pavo Mucic. With me is my colleague Michael
23 Greaves, lawyer from the United Kingdom of Great Britain
24 and Northern Ireland.
25 MR. KARABDIC (in interpretation): Your Honours, I am Salih
1 Karabdic, Defence Counsel for Mr. Hazim Delic. My
2 co-counsel is Mr. Thomas Moran, attorney from Houston,
4 MR. ACKERMAN: Good afternoon, your Honours. I am John
5 Ackerman. I am representing Mr. Esad Landzo. My
6 co-counsel is Miss Cynthia McMurrey from the United
8 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Thank you very much. You may proceed
9 with your witness.
10 MS. McHENRY: Thank you. Sir, am I correct that you have
11 requested protective measures such that your identity
12 and your face not be revealed to the public or the
14 A. (In interpretation): It is correct that I asked for
15 protective measures so that my identity should not be
17 Q. Do you understand that you will be known then here today
18 as Mr. D?
19 A. I do.
20 Q. I'm going to ask the usher to show the witness a piece
21 of paper and, sir, I ask you to look at that and tell --
22 confirm that this is, in fact, your name?
23 A. Yes, that is my name.
24 Q. Thank you. Now, sir, do you understand that if you are
25 asked something and you believe the answer to the
1 question may tend to reveal your identity, you may
2 request the judges to give your answer in private
3 session? Do you understand that?
4 A. Yes, I do.
5 Q. Sir, are you originally from Konjic?
6 A. Yes, I am from Konjic.
7 Q. What is your ethnic background, sir?
8 A. I'm a citizen of Bosnia and Herzegovina, by nationality
9 a Croat.
10 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Mr.s McHenry, let the witness be more
11 composed so that he wouldn't move about too much, not to
12 get into the problems of being disclosed. Let's get
13 the technical people and tell them to deface, to take
14 off his picture.
15 THE REGISTRAR: Actually what I'm asking is that he doesn't
16 move too much so that the facial distortion should be
17 well done, because if he moves there's a risk of him
18 being seen.
19 MS. McHENRY: I see. Sir, do you understand that it's
20 helpful if you -- you don't have to be as still as a
21 statue, but if in general you don't move back and forth,
22 especially forward and back very much.
23 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Could the permanent defacement of his
24 face be made so that as long as it's within that
25 perimeter it won't affect it, because he is not moving
1 out of that area. That's possible? All they need to
2 do is to deface the photograph.
3 MS. McHENRY: Okay. I would ask that the witness'
4 microphone be turned on and I'll advise your Honours
5 that during my examination-in-chief I'm going to request
6 that we go into private session on two separate
7 occasions, and this is now the first occasion that
8 I would be requesting that we go into private session to
9 ask a few questions about his background.
10 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Inform them to get into private
12 (In closed session)
11 (In open session)
12 MS. McHENRY: Thank you. We are now back in public
13 session. Sir, can you tell us whether or not you
14 returned to the Konjic area some time in May of 1992?
15 A. I cannot recall the date, but I think it was at the end
16 of May in 1992. The war in Bosnia-Herzegovina had
17 already started and with my wife I decided to transfer
18 her from Mostar to Konjic or, to be more precise, a part
19 of Konjic known as Buturovic Polje, where I was born.
20 Q. Sir, you indicate that you believe it was towards the
21 end of May. Do you know whether or not you returned to
22 Konjic before or after the attack on Bradina?
23 A. I came to Konjic the day the operation in Bradina
24 ended. Actually that was the day I arrived in
25 Ostrozac. That is 14 kms from Konjic and I stopped
1 there to convey to an inhabitant of the place some
2 greetings from some people in Mostar. It was the
3 afternoon and some units or groups of soldiers were
4 already coming from the area where the military
5 operations were being conducted, that is the area of
7 Q. Sir, upon returning to Konjic, did you report to any
8 kind of political or military authority?
9 A. In order to get out of Mostar I had to have a special
10 written permit from the by then already formed Croatian
11 Defence Council. Following the instructions that
12 I received when I was given this permit, my task was to
13 report to the Croatian Defence Council in Konjic.
14 Q. Sir, may I confirm that the Croatian Defence Council is
15 commonly known as the HVO?
16 A. Yes, exactly. That is the abbreviation HVO.
17 Q. Can you please tell us exactly what happened when you
18 report reported to the HVO?
19 A. I was also told in Mostar that I had to go back to
20 Mostar, because I was a citizen of Mostar, which I did
21 not deny, of course, but when I arrived in Konjic with
22 this permit, I went to the HVO and I reported to them,
23 and I then said that I had to go back to Mostar.
24 However, if I am unable to get into Mostar because of
25 the constant shelling of the only way in and out of
1 Mostar, I would come back to Konjic again. That was
2 normal. That is for people to be going back and forth
3 several times. So that maybe the second or third day
4 after that I went back in the direction of Mostar, but
5 the road, the Mostar-Goranci road, was under constant
6 artillery fire, so that I did not enter the city and
7 I went back to Konjic. That is what I told the people
8 in the HVO and I said if they felt that I could join in
9 the defence ranks there, that I was ready to do that.
10 There was a man there -- I think but I'm not sure
11 that his name was Zovko or something like that -- who
12 told me that if I stayed I would be welcome, and that
13 I should report to Goran Lokas. I asked what was this
14 man doing, this Goran Lokas, but I knew him, because
15 while I was working in the police, he too was head of
16 department. Actually at that time he was known as the
17 secretary of the Municipal Secretariat for Internal
18 Affairs, as it was called then, and I said that I had
19 nothing against reporting to him, thinking that he was
20 working in a body of the Internal Affairs Secretariat.
21 But he added that he was now working in the Military
22 Investigating Commission.
23 I agreed, and the next day I went to Konjic,
24 because in the meantime I had been staying at Buturovic
25 Polje, which is a local community belonging to the
1 municipality of Konjic, an area that I originated from,
2 where I was actually born.
3 The next day -- I can't remember the date exactly,
4 but this was probably the end of day -- I went to the
5 HVO to report to Goran Lokas. They told me that
6 Mr. Goran Lokas had had a traffic accident -- was
7 involved in a traffic accident the day before and that
8 I should come on another day to report to Ivica
9 Azinovic. This was somebody I did not know and I
10 didn't enquire either what his post was, but the next
11 day I was informed through my wife's sister who lives in
12 Donje Selo, or she used to live in Donje Selo -- this is
13 in the immediate vicinity of Konjic -- and she told me
14 that Miroslav Stenek had come to see her looking for me
15 and that I should report to the HVO.
16 Of course, the next day I went to the HVO. They
17 told me I should wait for Mr. Ivica Azinovic. About
18 midday of that day Ivica Azinovic appeared. Actually at
19 the very entrance to the HVO premises a security man
20 told me: "Here is Mr. Ivica Azinovic". When I addressed
21 him, as far as I can recall, without even entering his
22 office, or maybe he was still exchanging a few words
23 with someone else at the time -- I'm not sure -- he
24 turned around and told me to follow him. I did and in
25 the courtyard of the building a vehicle was waiting and
1 a driver, who had actually driven him there. He told
2 me to sit down and that is how we left, without telling
3 me where we were going or what we were going to do.
4 Sitting in the car, I asked him: "And where are we
5 going now?", and he told me that we were going to see
6 Mr. Zejnil Delalic. I went to secondary school with
7 Zejnil Delalic. I wasn't aware that he was there at
8 that time, but I didn't find anything wrong with going
9 to see him. So that in the meantime from the HVO
10 premises to the house owned by Mr. Zejnil Delalic it took
11 us a couple of minutes to get there only.
12 We entered a large room in his house. Of course,
13 as I knew Mr. Delalic, there was no need for any
14 introductions by Mr. Azinovic, but when we entered, he
15 said that we had come. There were some other people
16 there, with whom I shook hands, but who I did not know
17 at the time. I think I didn't know any one of them
18 then. I know that Mr. Delalic introduced me. He said:
19 "This is ..."
20 THE INTERPRETER: The witness has spoken his name.
21 MS. McHENRY: Sir, if you will just -- may we go into
22 private session for one minute, your Honour.
23 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Okay. Let's go into private
25 (In closed session)
8 (In open session)
9 Q. In addition to introducing you to the other people
10 by name, did Mr. Delalic say anything about what your
11 duties were going to be?
12 A. No. I was not offered to sit down but I saw that they
13 were busy with something. He said -- as far as I can
14 recall now the contents of what he said: "This person
15 will continue to work in the Military Investigative
16 Commission in Celebici". I think that he even said --
17 I think that he even told what part of the job I was
18 going to do there.
19 MS. McHENRY: Please continue, sir.
20 A. I don't recall that there were any details spelled out
21 about this. Maybe I asked whether I was going to start
22 doing this the next day or something like that, and he
23 said that Goran Lokas was not around, that he had a car
24 accident, and that it would be desirable if I started on
25 that job the very next day.
1 If I msy answer a question in private, please?
3 MS. McHENRY: Yes, sir
4 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: We want to get into private session
5 MS. McHENRY: Please hold on and we’ll go into private
7 (In closed session)
2 (In open session)
3 Q. Now we are in public session again. Sir, at this time
4 what did you understand Mr. Delalic's position to be?
5 A. At that time my understanding was that Mr. Delalic was
6 either in some kind of headquarters or some kind of
7 commander who is supposed to give this agreement.
8 Q. Okay. What happened after you were told by Mr. Delalic
9 about what kind of work you would be doing? Did you, in
10 fact, then start working at the Celebici camp?
11 A. Yes. The very next day I went to Celebici and joined
12 this group. Among them were Miro Stenek.
13 Q. Sir, I am not going to ask you the names now. I will
14 ask that later in private session. Can you just tell
15 us now, sir, so that the judges will have an overview,
16 can you tell me approximately when it was that you
17 stopped working at Celebici camp and I'm not asking for
18 any details about why you stopped. I just wonder if
19 you can tell us approximately when it was you stopped
20 working at Celebici Camp?
21 A. Yes. I was going to say, without mentioning all the
22 names -- what I wanted to say was that Stenek was there,
23 who was already working there, who was part of that
24 commission, so that with his assistance I received these
25 materials and I started working on them.
1 As far as your other question is concerned,
2 I think it was about a month, maybe even less.
3 Q. Without giving their names at this time, can you tell us
4 how many members of the Commission there were who worked
5 at the camp?
6 A. I think there were seven members of the Commission.
7 Q. Okay. During the time that you were working at the
8 camp how often did you go to the prison?
9 A. In fact, I went there every day. The Military
10 Investigative Commission worked every day from 0800
11 hours until 1800 hours or maybe until 17:00 hours. I
12 don't know. Except for Saturdays and Sundays --
13 sorry. I think except for Sundays, I think.
14 Q. And in addition to the work that you just described
15 briefly in private session, did you also interrogate
16 some prisoners?
17 A. Yes. This was not frequent, but I was present on
18 several occasions to these questionings and I conducted
20 Q. Do I understand you, sir, to indicate that you didn't
21 interrogate as many prisoners as the other persons on
22 the Commission, because you were also doing the other
23 work that you've already described?
24 A. Yes. Precisely.
25 Q. During the month or slightly less that you estimate you
1 worked there, are you able to estimate approximately how
2 many prisoners you yourself interrogated?
3 A. I don't know the exact number, but I think that there
4 were about ten, maybe more.
5 Q. Did I also understand you, sir, to indicate that at the
6 time you first went to Celebici some statements had
7 already been taken?
8 A. Yes, that is correct. The statements had already been
9 taken from a number of arrested persons, that is the
10 persons who were brought to the camp. Those were
11 mostly individuals arrested in the area of Donje Selo,
12 Pokojiste and some other villages in the area.
13 Q. Sir, when you started your work, how did you know what
14 to do? Was there a time that someone instructed you as
15 to how the Commission should work?
16 A. You see, when I took over this part of the job, which
17 I was told that I would be doing, as I knew how to do it
18 from before, I started working on it, but very soon --
19 I think it could have been 1st June of 1992 -- with the
20 Commission in the premises in which we worked we had a
21 meeting with Mr. Zejnil Delalic.
22 Q. Where did this meeting occur?
23 A. The meeting was announced the day before and it was said
24 it was going to take place, and it did take place at the
25 premises of the building where we worked, and this
1 particular room was used as a dining hall.
2 Q. So do I understand you correctly that the meeting with
3 Mr. Delalic occurred in the dining room of the building
4 where you worked in the camp in Celebici?
5 A. That's correct.
6 Q. And did the building where you worked -- did it have a
7 name? How was the building referred to?
8 A. I cannot recall what it was referred to as.
9 Q. Can you just describe generally where this building was
10 and what else was present in this building?
11 A. This building was to the left of the main gate. As you
12 came to the camp it would be to the left of the gate.
13 Q. Maybe it would be helpful -- was this building used for
14 administration, sir?
15 A. Probably during the former JNA time it was used for
16 administrative purposes, and in this case it was also
17 used as the administrative building, because this
18 Commission was housed there. The Commander of this
19 camp had an office there. That is how I was told that
20 this title was, the camp commander, Zdravko Mucic; his
21 deputy Hazim Delic, and there were some other rooms
22 there which I wasn't looking at. Maybe they belonged
23 to the persons who were -- who discharged guard duties.
24 Q. Okay. Sir, let's go back then to this meeting that
25 Mr. Delalic had in the administrative building. Can you
1 just please tell us were all the Commission members
2 there and what occurred during this meeting?
3 A. As far as I know, they were all there. Maybe somebody
4 was absent, but it seems to me that they were all
5 there. I know Mr. Mucic, the camp commander, and the
6 other members of the Commission. I don't know the
8 Q. Okay. Please tell us what happened during this
9 meeting, what occurred.
10 A. The meeting didn't last long. I know that at the very
11 beginning Mr. Delalic read out to us some kind of order,
12 which arrived by fax, or maybe some other way. I don't
13 know. He read out the title to whom this order was
14 directed. As far as I recall, the order was directed
15 to all commands and staffs except for the Cetnik ones.
16 That was approximately what it sounded like. I know
17 that he laughed a little bit when he read that. It
18 sounded a bit funny. The text was fairly short,
19 something about combat operations in the wider area and
20 the expectations of some combat operations, something to
21 do with the Cetnik attacks and things like that.
22 Q. Did Mr. Delalic indicate where this order came from, who
23 had issued it?
24 A. He said that he -- that this telegram was signed by --
25 I don't know what rank he read this person, but it said
1 Mate Sarlija, "Daidza".
2 Q. At this time did you know who this person was?
3 A. No. I had heard that for the first time then.
4 Q. Okay. With the usher's assistance I would like to show
5 you a document, sir. This document has previously been
6 shown to Defence Counsel. (Handed.) Am I correct that
7 this would be document 160?
8 THE REGISTRAR: Yes.
9 MS. McHENRY: Okay.
10 A. I apologise. I need to use my glasses.
11 Q. Sir, I ask that you look at what has been marked for
12 identification purposes as Prosecution Exhibit 160, and
13 I ask if you recognise that document?
14 A. Yes. I think that this is the contents of this message
15 that was read by Mr. Delalic.
16 Q. Thank you. Sir, was there any other -- other than
17 reading this order, what was discussed during this
18 meeting with Mr. Delalic?
19 A. Then he came to what he actually came there for. It
20 was about how we were to proceed.
21 Q. When you say "we", do you mean how the Commission was
22 supposed to proceed?
23 A. Yes. It is about the Commission, because the goal --
24 the aim of this meeting was to -- the work of this
25 Commission, and before this meeting we had received in
1 the Commission a typed text, in fact, the categories
2 according to which all these prisoners were to be
3 distributed. At that time Mr. Delalic was explaining
4 these categories to us. As far as I can recall, he
5 said that he had worked out these categories so that
6 these prisoners could be classified according to the
7 documents that was available. I think that -- it seems
8 to me that there were nine categories.
9 Q. Okay. In addition to explaining the categories to you,
10 was anything else discussed? For instance, was there
11 any discussion about release documents or do you
12 remember anything else that was discussed about the work
13 of the Commission?
14 A. The discussion was about creating the materials for
15 analysis to sum up all the incriminating facts and all
16 the acts and that on the basis of that decisions on the
17 status could be made of these prisoners, and, of course,
18 the measures that were to be taken accordingly. I
19 don't know what else was discussed, but mostly about
20 these issues, that there were a lot of these prisoners,
21 that a lot of these materials were brought from the
22 field, that should the Commission find out that there
23 are weapons hidden in the field that was left behind
24 belonging to these prisoners, that the military police
25 were alerted in a timely fashion so that they could go
1 out there and recover them.
2 Q. Okay. Your Honours, I would ask to go into private
3 session again, because I think the next few questions
4 I may ask might tend to reveal the witness' identity?
5 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Okay. Let's go to private session.
6 (In closed session)
22 (In open session)
23 Q. Sir, we are now back in public session. Mr. D, can you
24 tell us did you and the other members of the Commission
25 wear uniforms?
1 A. Yes. The Commission wore uniforms, but not always.
2 Q. Did the uniforms have insignia on them?
3 A. No-one at the time among the Commission members had any
4 insignia, as far as I can recall. I didn't have a
5 uniform for a long time, not for a long time, maybe a
6 couple of days, and I know that I took this uniform and
7 signed for it from Mr. Zejnil Delalic. I remember that.
8 Q. Okay. Do you know where the guards were from; in other
9 words, what group or entity they were from?
10 A. I really don't know who the guards belonged to.
11 I never saw any insignia, at least passing through there
12 I never saw any insignia on them, but, to be quite
13 frank, I didn't really look. I noticed only one guard,
14 that when speaking he had an Albanian accent. Then
15 I asked someone: "How come an Albanian is here?"
16 Somebody told me that he had served in the former JNA
17 there and that he had stayed on. He had joined the
18 forces that were placed in the position of defence.
19 Q. Okay. At this time can you just very briefly describe
20 what defence forces there were in Konjic at this time?
21 A. As far as I know, there was the essential. There was
22 the Territorial Defence, the TO, then the HVO.
23 However, at first there was the Patriotic League, the
24 HOS. I don't know. I would see this on the licence
25 plates of vehicles. At that time people would write
1 those plates out themselves and probably, seeing the TO
2 and the HVO, then others would put "HOS". I even saw
3 "MOS", probably the Muslim Armed Forces. I don't
5 Q. With respect to the HOS, what did you understand the HOS
6 to stand for and who did you -- did you have any
7 information about where the members of the HOS that were
8 in Konjic, where they were from?
9 A. I don't know. I saw vehicles with this sign a couple
10 of times. I saw some young men who all came from the
11 territory of Konjic. They were all young men.
12 I can't say. I don't know where they had come from,
13 anywhere outside.
14 Q. Sir, going back now to the Celebici camp, what did you
15 understand concerning who the detainees were, and I'm
16 not asking their names; I'm asking if you could tell us
17 your understanding of how they came to be in the camp?
18 A. You see, when I got there, there were a lot of prisoners
19 there already. I saw these lists brought to us in the
20 Commission by Mr. Mucic and the members of the Commission
21 talked to Mr. Mucic, or if Mucic wasn't there, then it
22 was Delic, which people needed to be interviewed in the
23 course of that day, and of whom statements should be
24 taken. So that, looking at those lists -- I can't
25 remember now whether there was one list; I think there
1 were several lists, probably in the order in which they
2 were brought in or maybe from where they were brought
3 in. But they were not only military conscripts.
4 There were civilians there too. I saw some women on
5 the list. So I understood that this must be a prison
6 where persons were being brought in who had been
7 captured in the area of combat operations or in
8 connection with those combat operations.
9 Q. Sir, did you understand whether or not it was people who
10 had been captured because they were part of the combat
11 operations, or did you understand that all men from that
12 area were captured? Can you explain a little bit about
13 what you mean?
14 A. It was one thing what I understood and another what the
15 practice was. The practice was to bring in virtually
16 all males from the area of combat operations, and not
17 only men but women as well, but there were men who were
18 brought in who were outside the area of combat
20 Q. Sir, you mentioned previously the categories. Can you
21 please explain to us what you remember about the various
22 categories and how that worked?
23 A. You see, a lot of time has gone by. I can't remember
24 quite clearly the contents of all the categories, but
25 I think that the first category were men who had
1 participated in the combat operations under arms and if
2 there are documents to prove that they were armed in
3 those operations and that they had killed somebody in
4 those operations, that was the worst category.
5 The second category would be somewhat milder
6 cases, again armed men, captured in the area of combat
7 operations but for whom it had not been established that
8 they had killed anyone, which doesn't mean to say that
9 they indeed hadn't.
10 A third category was again something like that but
11 the difference I think was that they had given
12 themselves up, because these others hadn't surrendered,
13 according to the documentation at least, but that they
14 were forced to surrender.
15 Then came the other categories. They were milder
16 and, to tell you the truth, it was difficult to
17 differentiate because you didn't know how to classify
18 them into the sixth, fifth, seventh, and I didn't really
19 agree with those categories, but that was how it was.
20 Q. Can you then, sir, please explain how the categorisation
21 process worked. Who decided what category to put
22 someone in and what was the impact of somebody being in
23 a particular category?
24 A. Having read these things, and we would get together, the
25 Commission would get together from time to time, and
1 when I read the documents referring to a particular
2 person then I would read out the indications for each of
3 the categories and evaluate which category that person
4 belonged to. That was the duty of each member of the
5 Commission. When dealing with a case each one of us
6 had this list with the categories indicated to put down
7 on the file and each prisoner had a kind of file, where
8 everything related to that prisoner was placed. Then
9 on the file, on the outside, we would put "1st
10 category", "2nd" or "3rd", and I think that we even made
11 lists on the basis of those filed after they had been
13 Q. Then, sir, what, if anything, did you understand was
14 supposed to be the result, the import of someone being
15 put in the first category versus the seventh category,
16 for instance?
17 A. We understood this classification as meaning that
18 somebody who was deciding on the release of those
19 prisoners, and it was not up to us in the Commission to
20 decide on that, to group those files and thus provide
21 easier access to the documents and easier decision on
22 release, so that in my view, and probably in the view of
23 the others too -- at least that is what they said --
24 after the third or fourth category, if the persons were
25 already in the camp and after they had been
1 interrogated, they should have been released.
2 Q. Sir, you described these files that were created and
3 then the categorisation. What happened with these
4 documents in the files that were created?
5 A. I don't know what happened when we left, but while we
6 were there and when we said that the prisoners had been
7 categorised, I know that Mr. Mucic, when he came for the
8 lists, would say that the decision on who would be
9 released would be taken by commander Zejnil. That's
10 what he said, which is something we, of course, didn't
11 interfere with.
12 Q. Were any of these -- during the time you were working
13 there, were these documents or files -- were they ever
14 taken out of the Celebici Camp after you finished with
15 one, for example?
16 A. I didn't see that, nor was I able to see, but we
17 prepared them and grouped them together so that --
18 according to category, so that they could be carried out
19 because, as I said, we made a list, for example, of the
20 sixth group or the fourth group category and attached to
21 the list would be the appropriate files, so that the
22 person who was deciding could be able to give his
24 Q. Besides the Commission members who were creating these
25 files did you ever see anyone else in possession of
1 these files?
2 A. I did not see, nor was it -- were they accessible to
3 anyone else except Mr. Mucic and Mr. Delic. I don't know
4 any others. Whether Mucic, or at least that was how he
5 behaved in front of us, whether he took them to
6 Mr. Delalic, Zejnil Delalic, I didn't see him do that,
7 but if he said that the decision would be taken by
8 Mr. Delalic, then he probably took them to him, but
9 I cannot expressly assert that.
10 Q. Okay. Can you tell us how frequently you would see
11 Mr. Mucic in the camp when you were doing your work
13 A. To tell you the truth, I don't know whether he was there
14 all day, but while I was working there, I think I saw
15 him every day, once or twice. I only know that on one
16 occasion somebody -- I don't know who -- was looking for
17 him and somebody said that he was busy in the field and
18 that he had stayed behind to have a good sleep, and that
19 he would come later, but I didn't notice his absence,
20 that he was absent.
21 Q. You mentioned briefly that Mr. Mucic had an office. Did
22 you yourself ever have occasion to go into his office
23 and on any of these occasions was he ever present in the
25 A. I entered his office without knowing that it was his at
1 the very beginning of my work there. I asked for the
2 written documentation that had been brought in from the
3 field and which the Commission needed to study and
4 investigate further. Then they told me -- I think
5 somebody was with me then -- that this was to be found
6 in Mucic's office, and that was the room where we were
7 working -- in relation to the room in which we were
8 working, the third room from us. I think so, in a
9 series -- in a row of rooms. So then I found some
10 papers in a sack and Mr. Mucic was there too, and he told
11 me: "Here you are. This is it". I would take the
12 papers from there and we would examine the papers, see
13 what we needed for our further work.
14 Q. Sir, how was it that prisoners were brought to the
15 administration building for interrogation and who
16 decided they should be interrogated; in other words,
17 would the Commission members decide themselves and then
18 go out and ask for certain prisoners, or how did that --
19 can you explain how that worked?
20 A. I said at the beginning that we received the lists from
21 Mr. Mucic and then the Commission would write out the
22 names of people they needed to interview, indicating the
23 names of the prisoners that needed to be brought in for
24 an interview. This list would be given to Mr. Mucic or
25 his deputy, Delic, and as far as I know it was mostly
1 Delic who did this, and I think Mucic said something to
2 that effect, that a list needed to be made of who we
3 needed and we should give that list to Mr. Delic and he
4 would proceed further. Since there were several
5 Commission members, several prisoners would be brought
6 in. I think about ten people at a time were being
7 prepared, were ready for this interview. None of the
8 commissions -- at least I didn't see them -- nor did
9 I ever go any further than that building. I saw --
10 there was frequent shooting there in that camp and when
11 we were working through the window, through the glass
12 panes, one could see that part of the camp from where
13 the prisoners were being brought, and on a couple of
14 occasions I saw several people lined up against the
15 concrete supporting wall. They were facing the wall
16 with their hands raised against the wall. I saw Delic
17 there. He always carried a rifle with him on the
18 ready, so to speak. They would fire above the heads of
19 those people bursts of fire. Everybody could see
20 this. All the members of the Commission could see
22 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: I think we will have a break now and
23 come back at 4.30.
24 MS. McHENRY: Thank you, your Honour.
25 (4.00 pm)
1 (Short break)
2 (4.30 pm)
3 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Yes. I see you are standing.
4 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honour, I would like to raise a matter
5 before we continue, if I could have the indulgence of
6 the court to do that?
7 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Yes. What is the matter about?
8 MR. ACKERMAN: It has to do -- I think this witness has
9 either little or nothing to do with regard to my client,
10 but I have been listening and have become concerned with
11 a matter which may be better taken up with the witness
12 not here. I'll leave that to the discretion of your
13 Honours, but I think it might be better for the witness
14 to withdraw for a moment while I raise this issue. I'm
15 doing it more in the nature of amicus curiae than as an
16 advocate in this case. I think it's something that
17 should be brought to the court's attention and the
18 attention of the Prosecutor but I am concerned that it
19 maybe ought not to be done in the presence of the
21 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: You can lead him into the witness room
22 for a few minutes:
23 (Witness withdraws from court).
24 MR. ACKERMAN: Conditionally it might be better if we are in
25 closed session, private session.
1 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Yes, I think so. Private session.
2 Inform the technicians
3 (In closed session).
Pages 5193 to 5200 redacted in closed session
(Hearing adjourned until 10 o'clock tomorrow morning)