1 Monday, 4th August 1997.
2 (10.07 am)
3 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Morning ladies and gentlemen. We are
4 back after a fortnight; no vacation, really. The fort-
5 night absence from active duty in the Trial Chamber.
6 So we are now going to continue from where we
7 stopped. Can we have the appearances.
8 MR. NIEMANN: For the prosecution. My name is Mr. Niemann
9 and I appear with Ms. McHenry, Mr. Turone and Ms. Ellis
10 Van Dusschoten.
11 MS. RESIDOVIC: Good morning your Honours, I am Edina
12 Residovic defence counsel for Zejnil Delalic. My
13 colleague is Eugene O'Sullivan.
14 MR. OLUJIC: I am Zejnil Olujic for Zdravko Mucic. My
15 colleague is Michael Greaves, Attorney from the United
16 Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland.
17 MR.. KARABDIC: Good morning your Honours, I am Salih
18 Karabdic, Attorney from Sarajevo, Attorney for Hazim
19 Delic. With me is Tom Moran, lawyer from Houston,
21 MR. ACKERMAN: Good morning your Honours. I am John
22 Ackerman and my co-counsel is Cynthia McMurrey from the
23 United States. Thank you.
24 MR. MORAN: We are having a little difficulty getting the
25 transcript on these computers. If the technical folks
1 could take a look at it.
2 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: I am sure someone will be able to
3 check on them.
4 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Mr. Niemann.
5 MR. TURONE: Good morning your Honours, our next witness was
6 supposed to be protected from the media and the public
7 but he gave up this protection. So he will testify in
8 open court. We call Mr. Milenko Kuljanin as our next
10 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Yes, bring the witness in.
11 MR. O'SULLIVAN: Your Honours perhaps before the witness
12 starts to testify we should get the computer transcript
13 correct. It is still not done yet.
14 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Kindly ask the witness to wait.
15 The Trial Chamber will rise for a few minutes and
16 immediately we know everything is all right we will come
18 MR. MORAN: Thank you your Honour
19 (The witness enters court).
20 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Would you kindly put the witness on oath
21 (Milenko Kuljanin, sworn).
22 MR. TURONE: May I proceed, Your Honours.
23 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Yes, you can.
24 A. May I start, Your Honours.
25 Q. Could you please state your full name, sir?
1 A. Milenko Kuljanin.
2 Q. What is your date of birth, Mr.. Kuljanin?
3 A. 1st February 1968.
4 Q. What is your ethnic group?
5 A. I am a Serb.
6 Q. Where were you born?
7 A. Konjic.
8 Q. Mr. Kuljanin, what education did you receive, I mean what
9 kind of schools did you attend?
10 A. I completed secondary school for catering in Sarajevo.
11 Q. What was your profession in 1992?
12 A. I was a waiter.
13 Q. Where did you live at the beginning of May 1992?
14 A. I lived in Bradina.
15 Q. Was there a time when Bradina was affected by the armed
16 conflict in 1992?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Can you say on which date did that happen?
19 A. Bradina was attacked on 25th May 1992 by the Muslim and
20 Croat paramilitary formations.
21 Q. Was there a time then when you were arrested?
22 A. Yes, I was captured, arrested on 29th or 30th May 1992
23 by the Muslim, as I described them, paramilitary
24 formations in the village of Ljuta near Kalinovik.
25 Q. Can you say very briefly the circumstances of your
1 arrest and what happened right after your arrest?
2 A. Before I was arrested the village of Bradina was
3 attacked by the Muslim and Croat paramilitary
4 formations. They attacked the virtually unarmed
5 population that happened to be in Bradina. They
6 started setting fire to houses, shooting at the people
7 that they encountered and killing them and with a couple
8 of friends I tried to escape from the onslaught of
9 Muslim and Croat. I do not know how to call them
10 myself, and I went -- I sought shelter and finally I was
11 captured and arrested in the village of Ljuta not far
12 from Kalinovik. When we were arrested we were
13 mistreated in various ways. We were tortured in the
14 village of Ljuta itself where we were arrested. After
15 that they transferred us to Mount Igman, where they beat
16 us again and mistreated us. We were kept there for
17 some time and then we were transferred to the camp to
18 the Celebici camp. In the Celebici camp they beat us
19 as soon as we arrived. They lined us up against the
21 Q. Mr. Kuljanin, just a moment: going back to the time of
22 your arrest, how many were the soldiers who arrested
23 you, approximately?
24 A. There were about 50, 50 soldiers.
25 Q. Can you say to which military units did they belong?
1 A. They were Muslim paramilitary units.
2 Q. Could you observe which uniforms did they wear and any
3 insignia they might have had?
4 A. Yes, they were wearing uniforms with the insignia of the
5 lillies that they had and still have.
6 Q. How many people were arrested together with you?
7 A. 20 odd people were arrested.
8 Q. Were you told why you were being arrested?
9 A. We were told because we were Serbs. That is the one
10 and only reason that they arrested us, kill us,
11 mistreated us and tortured us. In view of the fact
12 that we had not killed anyone, we did not attack anyone,
13 we were in our homes where we lived and so on.
14 Q. Mr. Kuljanin, did you reach Celebici camp with a vehicle,
15 I suppose; is that correct?
16 A. Yes, we arrived in the Celebici camp on board a military
17 vehicle of FAP make. On this military vehicle we were
18 tied up, we were beaten. During the drive to the
19 Celebici camp and the guard who was sitting on top fired
20 at us and on that occasion he killed one of the
21 prisoners and wounded four.
22 Q. Mr. Kuljanin, can you say on which day you arrived at
23 Celebici and approximately at what time in the day?
24 A. I cannot say exactly because I do not remember, but
25 I think it was late in the afternoon.
1 Q. What day, of what date?
2 A. The 29th, 30th; I cannot recall exactly.
3 Q. All right. Mr. Kuljanin, did you have any weapon
4 yourself at the time of your arrest?
5 A. No, I did not.
6 Q. Did you in any way take part in the defence of the
7 village of Bradina?
8 A. Unfortunately I did not.
9 Q. Can you approximately say whether there were persons in
10 Bradina and how many persons in Bradina who were armed
11 and took part in some defence of the village?
12 A. There must have been armed people, if there had been
13 armed people in Bradina it would not have suffered the
14 fate it did, which means that they were not armed,
15 except for perhaps a hunting rifle or would or some
16 small arms that people might have had like a pistol. I
17 am not aware of any other arms.
18 Q. Mr. Kuljanin, would you now tell us in detail what
19 happened to you right after your arrival at Celebici?
20 A. After we arrived in Celebici we were shut up in tunnel
21 number nine. Before we entered this tunnel we had to
22 stand up against a wall for several hours and while we
23 were standing there the guards, the soldiers who were
24 there, they beat us, they hit us, killed us. After
25 that we were put in tunnel number nine, where our
1 suffering continued. They tortured us in all kinds of
2 possible ways. As for the tunnel itself --
3 Q. Just a moment, Mr. Kuljanin, you said you were lined up
4 against a wall together with the other ones, were you
5 personally beaten in this occasion while being lined up
6 at the wall?
7 A. Yes, I was. They beat me.
8 Q. How long about were you beaten?
9 A. They beat me because I had only just been captured.
10 I did not know any of the guards by name. So I did not
11 know who it was at first. I do not know who beat me
12 when we had only just arrived.
13 Q. But my question was; how long were you beaten in this
14 occasion. Did you not hear me?
15 A. No.
16 Q. For how long were you beaten on that occasion while you
17 were lined up at the wall? Do you hear the translation?
18 A. I hear now. I did not hear a moment ago. I only just
19 managed to hear. Thank you.
20 Q. So my question was; for how long were you beaten at the
21 wall in this occasion?
22 A. For about three or four hours.
23 Q. Did anybody take note of your names right after your
24 arrival at Celebici?
25 A. When we arrived in Celebici and before being lined up
1 against the wall in the command, when we were tied up
2 and they took down their names. That was all. After
3 that they started beating us. This beating went on for
4 three or four hours after which we were put in the
6 Q. All right. Mr. Kuljanin, you see a model in front of
7 you in this courtroom. You can stand up and watch it
8 and look at it if you wish. My question is; do you
9 recognise what does the model represent first of all?
10 A. It is the model of the Celebici camp.
11 Q. So, could you please indicate, may I ask the usher to
12 provide the witness with something to point, could you
13 indicate on the model the places you have been talking
14 so far. I mean the entrance of the camp, the wall
15 where you were lined up and tunnel number nine. If you
16 want to turn around the model you can, of course?
17 A. The entrance to the camp was here. The gate was here,
18 (indicating) there was the command building, the
19 Infirmary (indicating) tunnel number nine, hangars
20 number six (indicating). These were also hangars
21 (indicating). The manhole was here, (indicating) a
23 Q. All right, thank you.
24 A. And some other buildings over here.
25 Q. You can go back to your seat. Now, Mr. Kuljanin, in
1 which physical conditions were you when you first
2 entered tunnel nine?
3 A. I was in a poor physical condition because we had been
4 beaten en route to the camp and at the camp when we
5 arrived there. I was in a very poor physical
7 Q. Did you receive any medical care?
8 A. No, we did not.
9 Q. When you first entered tunnel nine were there any
10 prisoners already inside the tunnel?
11 A. When we entered tunnel number nine there were no
12 prisoners inside. It was empty.
13 Q. Could you please now describe the physical
14 characteristics of tunnel nine; give us a description of
15 tunnel nine?
16 A. Tunnel number nine was underground. It was about 1
17 metre and 20 centimetres wide in my assessment, and
18 about 20 metres long. In fact, as I said it was under
19 the ground and it was an incline. I am not sure what
20 the degrees of the gradient were.
21 Q. Thank you. Was there any electric light inside the
23 A. The electric lights were never turned on. There were
24 electric lights but they were never turned on during our
25 stay in the tunnel.
1 Q. Was there any natural light? I mean, was there any
2 opening through which daylight could enter into the
4 A. Yes, at the entrance door, but very little. From
5 around half of the tunnel it was pitch dark. You could
6 only see halfway towards the door.
7 Q. Mr. Kuljanin, how long did you stay in tunnel nine?
8 A. In tunnel number nine I stayed for about 110 days.
9 Q. I understand that when you arrived there you were about
10 20 people; did the number of prisoners in number nine
11 change in the period of time you remained there?
12 A. Yes, it did. The number of prisoners kept increasing
13 in tunnel number nine. They kept bringing new people
14 from the neighbouring villages. They brought or
15 neighbours. The number of people in tunnel nine
16 increased to around 40, if I recall correctly.
17 Q. Did you sit in a particular place inside the tunnel?
18 A. In tunnel number nine I sat by the door. I was the
19 sixth or seventh from the door.
20 Q. Could you now tell you how were the conditions of life
21 in tunnel nine, I mean, food, drinking water, toilet
22 facilities, where did you sleep, etc?
23 A. We slept in the tunnel. We slept in the tunnel, the
24 conditions were extremely poor. It will suffice to
25 take a look at the tunnel, that is sufficient in
1 itself. As regard food and water and all other
2 conditions, they were very poor. We only received
3 every third day a slice of bread. We would receive a
4 loaf of bread for 13 or 17 of us depending from
5 practically day-to-day. The same goes as far as
6 water. As far as relieving ourselves. We did to do it
7 in the tunnel and it was horrendous. The conditions in
8 fact were abominable, as the tunnel itself shows.
9 Q. What about the toilet facility, how did you manage?
10 A. We had to relieve ourselves in the tunnel itself.
11 There was a bucket which was thrown in by the Muslim
12 guards and we had to use that to relieve ourselves in.
13 That was our toilet.
14 Q. Were you also allowed sometimes to go out to relieve
16 A. Yes, they would let us out to relieve ourselves
17 sometimes, but before we relieved ourselves, we had to
18 stand next to the wall, raise our arms and spread our
19 legs so that Hazim Delic would hit each of us with a
20 baseball bat two or three times on the back, on the
21 kidneys. It was only then that we were allowed to
22 relieve ourselves. After that we would return to the
24 Q. May I ask the usher to provide the witness with
25 production exhibit number 1, which is a set of photos of
1 the camp. I would like the witness to see on the ELMO,
2 please, photo 45 first on page 33, I suppose. Mr.
3 Kuljanin, do you recognise anything in this photo?
4 A. Yes, I do. This is tunnel number nine.
5 Q. Yes, could you please now look at the following photo,
6 number 46, please.
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. That is probably not reentered the right way on the
9 ELMO. Yes, that is correct.
10 A. This is the interior of the tunnel, tunnel number nine.
11 Q. All right. What about the next photo, number 47?
12 A. That is the rear end of tunnel number nine.
13 Q. All right. Production exhibit No. 1, so far we do not
14 need it now but we will need it again later. So, Mr.
15 Kuljanin, after the beating you suffered the very first
16 day at the wall, were you personally beaten again during
17 the period of your stay in tunnel nine?
18 A. Yes, I was beaten many times.
19 Q. So without giving --
20 A. By --
21 Q. -- Giving any detail yet, can you say approximately how
22 frequently were you personally beaten during your stay
23 in tunnel nine?
24 A. Three to four times personally, not to mention the mass
25 beatings, when I was beaten with the rest. I was
1 personally beaten three or four times.
2 Q. Again without giving any detail yet, did you personally
3 suffer any other physical maltreatment besides beating
4 during the period of your stay in tunnel nine?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Did that happen once or more than once?
7 A. It happened two times.
8 Q. So now, can you help describe in detail every single
9 major incident. I mean every major incidents either
10 beaten or maltreated that you personally suffered while
11 you were in tunnel nine, please?
12 A. Yes, now I would mention the maltreating and the torture
13 by Landzo, who came to the door and asked me if I was
14 married read etc. As I said, I was not married. He told
15 me what if I take you to watch a cassette, this was a
16 cassette of a wedding of a relative of mine where I was
17 a member of the wedding party. He could not understand
18 some of those things. So he took me out with Osman
19 Dedic, Camdzic and I cannot remember the names of the
20 others. He tied me up. He tied me to a pole and also
21 gagged me. He ordered me to kneel, and as I kneeled --
22 when I kneeled they started to beat me. They beat me
23 with rifle butts. They kicked me with their feet.
24 They hit me with sticks. I do not remember all manner
25 of thing they beat me with. They were strong blows and
1 I hurt terribly. I fell down. I almost lost
2 consciousness. When they stopped beating me and
3 torturing me I was unable to get up. He then called
4 the other two guys from tunnel number nine, other two
5 guys from tunnel nine took me in.
6 Q. When you say he called, who do you mean he called?
7 A. Landzo, whom I already mentioned. I told you what he
8 had asked me. Then I would also like to mention the
9 torture I suffered at the hands of Hazim.
10 Q. Before you go to another incident, I would like to focus
11 on this one, Mr. Kuljanin. By whom exactly were you
12 tied to the pole?
13 A. By Landzo, I was tied to the pole by Landzo.
14 Q. Do you remember where in the camp was this pole?
15 A. It was above the tunnel number nine.
16 Q. May I invite you, Mr. Kuljanin, to look again at the
17 photos you have on your right-hand side on the ELMO
18 beside you and look at these photos just to find out, if
19 you find in these photos the pole which might be the one
20 that you are talking about. Can you indicate?
21 A. (Indicating).
22 Q. Was that the pole that you were tied to?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. All right.
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. Were you also gagged with something within you were tied
2 to the pole?
3 MR. MORAN: Excuse me, your Honour.
4 A. I have already said that I was gagged by Landzo. He
5 gagged me and he tied me to the pole. They ordered me
6 to kneel, then they started to beat me with rifle butts
7 and hit me with all sorts of things.
8 Q. For the record I will say that the witness indicated
9 photo number 50 in prosecution exhibit No 1. Thank
10 you. So, with what were you beaten while you were tied
11 to the pole?
12 A. As I have already mentioned, I was viciously beaten by
13 rifle butts, by some sorts of sticks. I was kicked,
14 etc. They beat me until I almost lost consciousness.
15 Then two came, two men came from tunnel number nine to
16 bring me back inside, to take me back inside because I
17 could not do it myself.
18 Q. How long did all this last, approximately?
19 A. It lasted from half an hour to 45 minutes approximately,
20 if not more.
21 Q. Do you remember approximately when did this happen, at
22 least in which month?
23 A. It happened somewhere in June, some time in June.
24 I cannot remember the date.
25 Q. All right. So can you help now describe any other
1 incident you personally suffered during the period you
2 stayed in tunnel nine. Pass to next incident please?
3 A. I can refer to an incident which where Hazim Delic was
4 the perpetrator. He had this electrical gadget which
5 he used to burn me twice. He put it to my chest on
6 two occasions and I received an electric shock. Then I
7 would also like to mention the occasions when he beat me
8 with a baseball bat and kicked me --
9 Q. Mr. Kuljanin, before going to another incident let us
10 focus, please, on the one concerning the electrical
11 device. Can you please describe in detail this
12 electrical device?
13 A. Delic entered tunnel number nine with this device which
14 I already mentioned. Then he put it to my chest twice
15 and I do not know how it functioned but I received two
16 electrical shocks. It was horrible and unpleasant.
17 Q. Yes, Mr. Kuljanin, my question is could you please give
18 us a physical description of this electrical device?
19 Did how did it look like? How was it done?
20 A. Yes, I can.
21 Q. Please do that?
22 A. This electrical device had the form of a packet of
23 cigarettes but it was much larger. On top it had two
24 wires. There was a button on the device approximately,
25 a connecting button so that the wires would conduct
1 electricity to the chest so that I would receive a shock
2 and the shock which I did receive was terribly
3 unpleasant. I had convulsion on account of the shock
4 and I twitched.
5 Q. Do you mean Mr. Delic used the electrical device on you
6 twice in the same day or on different days?
7 A. Twice on the same day.
8 Q. Did he apply this device on your skin or on your
10 A. He applied it on my skin.
11 Q. Exactly on which part of your body?
12 A. The chest, below the neck.
13 Q. Did any visible traces remain on your skin after that?
14 A. Yes, initially there was a trace and it remained there
15 for three or four months. They were spots where the
16 wires had contacted the skin. They were tiny scars on
17 account of the contact with the electricity.
18 Q. Did Delic use this device on you inside the tunnel?
19 A. He used it inside the tunnel.
20 Q. Did he say anything while using this device on you?
21 A. Yes, he laughed. He found it funny.
22 Q. Can you say approximately when did this happen, at least
23 in which month?
24 A. It happened approximately in July, the month of July.
25 Q. Did you ever see Mr. Delic using this device on anybody
1 else besides you?
2 A. Yes, I did. It happened in the tunnel, he applied this
3 device also to other prisoners who were in the tunnel
4 with me.
5 Q. Can you say approximately how many times and can you say
6 the names of any of these prisoners who received this
8 A. I can state some of the names of the people who were
9 subjected to this form of torture and maltreatment.
10 They are Desimir Mrkajic, Radovan Dordic, Marko Kuljanin,
11 Kuljanin Radovan and these I can remember.
12 Q. All right, thank you. Did you ever hear Mr. Delic
13 saying anything to any of these prisoners while using
14 the electrical device on them?
15 A. With some of them he talked during this and laughed at
16 them as he was applying the device. Some of them
17 begged him as they were in pain and unpleasant pain not
18 to do that not to torture them, not to maltreat them,
19 but he even hit some of them when they begged him to
20 cease torturing them. He merely laughed.
21 Q. All right, Mr. Kuljanin. Now you were going to talk
22 about another incident and you mentioned something like
23 a baseball bat. Could you go on on this account?
24 A. Yes, your Honour I can continue. Delic that baseball
25 bat which he used the most, I have personally felt if on
1 my skin. I was personally maltreated by Delic with a
2 baseball bat in the tunnel and in front of the tunnel.
3 He would enter the tunnel. He entered the tunnel with a
4 baseball bat. I was sitting inside and he started
5 walking me on the back with it and on the kidneys
6 specifically. Then he would take me out in front of the
7 tunnel and I stood against the wall. I had to raise my
8 arms and spread my legs. They he hit me also with the
9 baseball bat on the back and on the kidneys.
10 Q. Approximately how many times did Delic beat you with
11 this baseball bat?
12 A. He hit me many times, lot of times.
13 Q. Mr. Kuljanin, did Mr. Delic say anything to you while
14 beating you with the baseball bat?
15 A. He did. He mentioned Serbian, he mentioned the
16 Chetniks. It mainly all boiled down to the fact that
17 we were Serbs and he said as much. In fact there
18 existed no other reason.
19 Q. Did you ever see Mr. Delic using this baseball bat on
20 other prisoners?
21 A. Oh, yes, I did. I saw him using the baseball bat on
22 all the prisoners who were with me in tunnel number
23 nine, on all the prisoners he used the baseball bat who
24 were in tunnel number nine while I was there with all of
1 Q. Can you say approximately how many times did that
3 A. It happened virtually every day, almost every day.
4 Q. Did you ever hear Mr. Delic say anything while beating
5 any prisoner with this baseball bat?
6 A. Yes, he would always have a reason. He would refer to
7 the Chetniks, how the Chetniks were killing people.
8 What they were doing to the Muslims - this and that.
9 Those were his main pretext and his main excuses and
11 Q. Now, Mr. Kuljanin, is there any other major incident that
12 you probably suffered during the period you stayed in
13 tunnel nine?
14 A. Yes, when I was in tunnel number nine, Delalic and Mucic
15 took us to the manhole where there was no air.
16 Q. Excuse me, you said Delalic; is that correct?
17 A. Delic, I said Delic. Delic and Mucic.
18 Q. Yes, what did they do?
19 A. They took us to the manhole where there was no air.
20 Delic came and ordered half of the men outside from
21 tunnel number nine. Then they lined us up and we set
22 out toward the direction. We were not aware then that
23 we were heading for the manhole. Delic and Mucic were
24 there as well as the guards escorting us, armed guards
25 escorting us to the manhole without air. By the
1 entrance to the manhole there stood Mucic. Mucic and
2 Delic stood and we also had to run the gauntlet of
3 guards before entering the manhole, who hit us in the
4 manhole itself. It was very cramped and we were
5 virtually one upon another. When we entered the manhole
6 they closed it after. After some time there was no
7 more air left in the manhole and the people inside
8 started shouting and thumping on the lid to be opened
9 from outside. We -- older people especially inside.
10 Those outside were saying they would throw a bomb at
11 us. We asked them to do that because it was
12 intolerable inside. After eight hours we went out of
13 the manhole. We were again beaten by the guards as we
14 exited by Mucic Pavo and Delic Hazim. Mucic Pavo asked
15 me as I was leaving the manhole about a guy I used to
16 know, an acquaintance, in fact, and then after that we
17 were returned to the tunnel, normally attended by
18 beatings, etc.
19 Q. Let us go to some specific question concerning this stay
20 in the manhole. When you were called out of the
21 tunnel, in order to go to the manhole how many other
22 prisoners were called together with you?
23 A. I think around 16 or 17 people. I think that was the
24 figure. I am not quite sure. There may have been
25 more or less.
1 Q. Can you mention the names at least of some of the other
3 A. I can mention some of the names of the prisoners who
4 were with me in this manhole. There was Momir Mrkajic,
5 Adelko Kuljanin, Nikola Mrkajic, Branislav Mrkajic,
6 Jelenko Kuljanin, Rajko Doroic, Rajko Dordic, those are
7 the names that I can recall.
8 Q. That is enough, thank you. Did you go to the manhole
9 which you already indicate in the model walking or with
10 some vehicle?
11 A. On foot, lined up in a line, escorted by armed guards
12 who beat us as we went along. They beat us as we
13 entered the manhole.
14 Q. Yes, Mr. Kuljanin, did Mr. Mucic and Mr. Delic walk
15 together with you to the manhole?
16 A. Yes, as I already said they moved with us towards the
17 manhole and they stood outside the manhole while we
18 entered and they were there also when we came out eight
19 hours later, as I have already said.
20 Q. Mr. Kuljanin, by whom, exactly, were you ordered to enter
21 the manhole?
22 A. The orders were given by Hazim Delic.
23 Q. Were all the guards who brought you to the manhole still
24 present there when you entered the manhole?
25 A. Yes, the guards formed a gauntlet that we had to run
1 through and as we did they beat us with whatever they
2 could lay hands on up to the very entrance into the
4 Q. You told us the cover was closed, who closed the cover
5 of the pit, of the manhole?
6 A. One of the guards closed the lid on the pit.
7 Q. So may I ask the witness to watch at photos, some photos
8 in production exhibit No. 1 and precisely first photo
9 number 38 first. Do you recognise anything in this
10 picture. I think this is not the right picture, you
11 know. Yes, this is picture 38. Do you recognise
12 anything in this picture?
13 A. Yes, I do. This is the manhole.
14 Q. Could you please go to photo number 39, please.
15 A. Yes, I can.
16 Q. Do you recognise anything?
17 A. That is the entrance to the pit.
18 Q. Could you please look at picture number 40. What is
20 A. That is the manhole.
21 Q. Yes. Photo number 41, please?
22 A. That is the appearance of the manhole inside, the
23 internal appearance, the internal, an internal view of
24 the manhole.
25 Q. Could you now see photo number 42, please?
1 A. It is again a view of the manhole inside.
2 Q. Mr. Kuljanin, how many prisoners were forced to enter the
4 A. I already said somewhere around 16 or 17, maybe more.
5 They were all in this manhole and you see what it looks
7 Q. How could they all fit in this manhole?
8 A. We were all one on top of another, like sardines in a
9 box, all one on top of another, virtually thrown one
10 upon another.
11 Q. Can you say where exactly you were inside the manhole, I
12 mean were you down on the floor or over other prisoners?
13 A. I was on the floor, actually and the other prisoners
14 were standing on my back on top of me. Some of them
15 were leaning with their hands against me because, as
16 I just said, we were all one on top of another. It was
17 a small manhole for all these people to fit. The
18 actual appearance of the manhole as you can see was such
19 that there were also pipes around it, so it was
20 virtually impossible for all of us to fit in, but we
22 Q. Could you breathe normally inside there?
23 A. No, the manhole was almost automatically closed. There
24 was just a pipe that appeared in the surface and some
25 air could pass through. After some time, a guards who
1 was on the outside he shut this pipe to prevent the air
2 from coming in. After some time people started to
3 panic, there was no air is there. They started begging
4 the guard to open the lids but he refused. He even
5 threatened to throw a grenades into the manhole. At the
6 end we begged him to do that because we just could not
7 go on like that. There was no air; we could not
9 Q. Mr. Kuljanin, you said you remained inside this manhole
10 about eight hours. Did any of the prisoners lose
11 consciousness during these eight hours?
12 A. Yes, two. They were not quite unconscious but
13 almost. When the lid was opened we all started
14 climbing out an they stayed inside. Then we shook them
15 a little. They came too and then they came out too.
16 Q. Do you know whether any of the guards remained outside
17 of the manhole while you were in all the time?
18 A. Yes, a guard who was on the lid all the time throughout
19 the eight hours that we were in the manhole. He was
20 sitting there, and I said we had to beat on the lid,
21 begging him to let us get some air, but he threatened to
22 throw a bomb, as I had said, and as we could not stand
23 it any more we begged him to do that, but eventually the
24 lids opened and we came out.
25 Q. Do you know the name of this guard who remained there
1 the whole time?
2 A. I only know his nickname. He was known as Karavan.
3 Q. How many guards did you see there when you could get out
4 of the manhole?
5 A. I cannot tell you the exact number, but there were quite
6 a number of guards. Again they made a gauntlet and we
7 had to pass through it,. And Delic and Mucic stood
8 there watching them mistreating us as we came out of the
10 Q. You say Mr. Mucic told you something at this time; can
11 you say exactly what did he tell you?
12 A. Yes, he did. Mucic asked me about somebody whom he
13 probably knew. He asked me where he was, how he was.
14 I answered that I did not know, and he said that he
15 would come soon as well and that he would go to the
16 manhole again. He mentioned Snjezan. This man was
17 not in the camp but he said he would be joining us soon,
18 but he did not come, this young man. That was the
19 question that he asked me. That was the whole
20 conversation that we did at that time.
21 Q. Did you then go back to tunnel nine?
22 A. Yes, when we came out of the manhole we were returned to
23 tunnel number nine. When we went back, the other
24 prisoners went out and we assumed that they would be
25 taken to the manhole as well. The Group that was taken
1 out after us was taken to the manhole, but among those
2 who were in the manhole with me was Rajko Djordjic and
3 he was taken with the second Group again and when he was
4 told that he would be going there again. He begged
5 Mucic and Delic to kill him rather than put him back in
6 the manhole, but they would not listen and Rajko
7 Djordjic was back in the manhole with a second Group
8 that spent even more than eight hours, more time than my
9 Group had spent in it.
10 Q. So when did the prisoners of the second Group come back?
11 A. I cannot tell the exact time, but I know that they spent
12 more time there than the first Group.
13 Q. After these prisoners came back did any of them tell you
14 where they were brought?
15 A. Yes, they told us.
16 Q. What did they tell you and who?
17 A. Rajko Djordjic, as he was sitting next to me as I had
18 mentioned, he was in the first Group and in the
19 second. So he told me that they had spent time in the
20 manhole and that it was worse than the first time
21 because they were kept there longer and people were
22 losing consciousness, even more so than in the first
23 Group and that the same procedure was followed. The
24 gauntlet, the beating, everything.
25 Q. All right. So Mr. Kuljanin, approximately when did all
1 this happen, the manhole incident, at least in which
2 month did that happen?
3 A. I think it was in July.
4 Q. All right, Mr. Kuljanin, is there any other incident that
5 you personally suffered during the period of your stay
6 in tunnel nine, I mean any other major incident you have
7 to describe while you stayed in tunnel nine?
8 A. The main incident has to do with the killings that
9 occurred in tunnel number nine.
10 Q. I am asking you about incidents you personally suffered,
11 maltreatment, you probably suffered while you stayed in
12 tunnel nine. Do you have anything else to add to what
13 you said so far about what you suffered probably while
14 you were in tunnel nine?
15 A. I was mistreated every single day by Landzo, by Delic
16 and the other guards. They would take us out daily, me
17 personally and beat us, together with other prisoners,
18 in front of the tunnel and inside the tunnel. This was
19 more or less every day.
20 Q. All right. Did you receive any medical care in the
21 whole period you spent in tunnel nine?
22 A. Throughout my stay in tunnel number nine and tunnel
23 number six we did not receive, I did not receive any
24 kind of medical treatment.
25 Q. As far as you know and as far as you might have seen,
1 did any other prisoner receive any medical care?
2 A. Not a single person that was with me in tunnel number
3 nine was given any kind of medical aid or treatment.
4 There were people who lost an eye, with broken arms,
5 with broken legs and no medical treatment whatsoever was
6 given to them.
7 Q. All right, Mr. Kuljanin, you were mentioning something
8 about killings. So did you personally observe any
9 grave mistreatment of any other prisoner while you were
10 in tunnel nine and in particular do you know anything
11 because of direct knowledge about the circumstances of
12 the death of any prisoner inside the camp?
13 A. Yes. If I may mention the mistreatment of other
14 prisoners Nikola Mrkajic Sukasic and Djordje Djordjic.
15 They were tortured by Delic and Landzo.
16 MR. MORAN: Your Honour, this is not in response to the
18 MR. TURONE: I would say this is a response, your Honour.
19 I asked him: "What did you personally observe of any
20 other grave mistreatment of any other prisoners while
21 you were in tunnel nine and, in particular, do you know
22 anything because of direct knowledge about the
23 circumstances of the death?" So I am asking the witness
24 about mistreatments he might have eyewitnessed, not only
25 mistreatments ending with the death, but in any case.
1 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: He said --
2 MR. TURONE: He said he, "I personally".
3 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: He said he understood, not that he
5 MR. TURONE: I believe that this witness eyewitnessed a
6 number of incidents concerning other prisoners.
7 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Are you giving the evidence of what he
8 said? He has already said what he --
9 MR. TURONE: I am assuming that the witness has to be
10 allowed to give the account of what he personally saw
11 with his eyes. I suppose he will.
12 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: I am sorry, you were not listening.
13 If you were listening you would have heard. He said:
14 "I understood certain persons were tortured". That is
15 what he said.
16 MR. TURONE: All right, Mr. Kuljanin. Please give us the
17 accounts of what you saw with your eyes concerning
18 mistreatments suffered by other prisoners while you were
19 in tunnel nine, please.
20 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Kindly let us hear only what you saw
21 or what you heard.
22 A. I want to tell you what I saw, that is what I have been
23 saying. I have been talking only about what I saw, and
24 I mentioned two people who were mistreated by Delic and
25 Landzo. May I do that, may I talk about that?
1 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Yes, this is what you are expected to talk
3 MR. TURONE: Go on, Mr. Kuljanin, please.
4 A. As regards Vukasin Mrkajic, he came to tunnel number
5 nine with broken ribs on both sides of his chest.
6 Those ribs were fractured by Delic. In the tunnel
7 itself Delic would come every day, as he had swellings
8 on both sides because of these broken ribs Delic would
9 hit him against those ribs to hurt him. Then I would
10 mention the torture of Rajko Djordjic by Delic and
11 Landzo who tortured, beat him, beat him up with sticks,
12 with baseball bats, with their boots, who shut him up in
13 the manholes without water, etc etc. This could be
14 testified by all the prisoners who were in number nine
15 because these mistreatments were repeated almost
16 daily. They would take us out to sunbathe,
17 allegedly. They would tell us to strip up to our
18 waist, to line us up against a wall next to tunnel
19 number nine. We had to stand apart, raise our arms
20 behind our heads. Then Delic would come with a baseball
21 bat, escorted by guards, who would follow him. Then he
22 would hit us, then the guards would hit us until we fell
23 unconscious. Then they would shove us back into tunnel
24 number nine.
25 Q. All right, Mr. Kuljanin. Do you know anything because
1 of direct knowledge, observation about the circumstances
2 of the death of any prisoner inside the camp?
3 A. I can mention two killings in the camp that I personally
4 eyewitnessed. I would first like to mention the
5 killing of Slavko Susic carried out by Senad Landzo and
6 Hazim Delic.
7 Q. All right.
8 A. In the case of Slavko Susic, he was born in Celebici,
9 the place where the camp itself was situated. Slavko
10 Susic was brought to tunnel number nine maybe a month
11 after us and he was brought to the tunnel by Delic, who
12 followed him in, who beat him to the very entrance and
13 inside as well. Delic beat him with a rubber pole
14 somewhere halfway into the tunnel. Slavko was all
15 covered in blood. He was swollen. His eyelids were
16 swollen. Delic left him in tunnel number nine. He
17 went out and he ordered Zarko Mrkajic to investigate
18 Slavko Susic in connection with a radio transmitter that
19 only he knew about, claiming that Slavko Susic had this
20 radio transmitter, receiver. Zarko Mrkatic questioned
21 him, talked to him nicely. He asked him whether he had
22 this radio transmitter. He said that he had no idea
23 about it, that he did not have one. However, Delic
24 came back two or three hours later, I cannot say exactly
25 after how much time, and he asked Zarko whether he had
1 confessed to having this radio transmitter. As he did
2 not have one he could not confess. Delic took Zarko
3 out demanding that he confess about this radio
4 transmitter. When this did not help Delic took Slavko
5 out, beat him and who knows what else he did to him, but
6 then he came into the tunnel and he said that he had
7 admitted that he had a radio transmitter and that he was
8 going with him to his home to bring back this radio
9 transmitter. They went and returned without a radio
10 transmitter because the man did not have one. Anyway
11 Delic started hitting him again and said that he was
12 lying, that he was cheating, that he did have a radio
13 station but he refused to admit. This beating went on,
14 or rather Delic beat him. Then he shoved him back into
15 tunnel number nine. Then Landzo came, Zenga. He took
16 him out in front of tunnel number nine. He pulled his
17 tongue with pliers. He wrapped a fuse round his leg
18 and his waist, setting light to it, forcing the man to
19 admit something that he could not admit because he
20 simply did not have such a radio transmitter. Zenga set
21 light to the fuse. The man was burning. He tortured
22 him in various ways. When Zenga stopped with this
23 torture, Slavko Susic crawled on his -- on all fours
24 into the tunnel because he simply could no longer
25 walk. Slavko Susic stayed there, spent the night.
1 I think the next day Delic continued torturing him and
2 beating him and that same day about 4 or 5 the man
3 succumbed to this torture and passed away. Slavko
4 Susic lay there dead. After he had died the prisoners
5 who were sitting close to him, they dragged him near the
6 door and positioned him in the proper position for a
7 dead man. He was left there for two nights and a day,
8 after which Delic and Zenga and the guards came and
9 accused us that we had killed Slavko Susic, after which
10 they continued to mistreat and beat us because they had
11 killed Slavko Susic, but they said that we had killed
12 him, adding that: "See what you have done to one of
13 your own, imagine what you would do to the Muslims."
14 Slavko Susic's body lay there for two nights and a day
15 after which he was taken away. What happened to him,
16 he was probably thrown away somewhere. I have no idea
17 what happened to his body.
18 Q. All right, Mr. Kuljanin, may we have some specific
19 questions on this incident concerning Slavko Susic?
20 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Actually, I would rather let us start
21 with a break and come back at 12, so that we will
22 continue then.
23 MR. TURONE: All right, your Honour
24 (Short adjournment).
25 (12 o'clock).
1 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Please remind the witness he is still
2 under his oath.
3 THE REGISTRAR: May I remind you that you are still under
5 A. Yes.
6 MR. TURONE: May I proceed?
7 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Yes, you can.
8 MR. TURONE: So Mr. Kuljanin, let us go to some specific
9 questions concerning the incident having to do with
10 Slavko Susic. You say that Mr. Susic first appeared in
11 the tunnel one day, approximately one month after your
12 arrival. Can you say approximately at what time of the
13 day did he arrive, that very first day you saw him in
14 the tunnel?
15 A. I think that it was in the morning, as far as I
17 Q. You say that Mr. Delic came and invited Zara Mrkajic to
18 interrogate Mr. Susic; is that correct?
19 A. Yes, that is correct.
20 Q. Do you remember what did you hear Delic saying too Zara
21 Mrkajic exactly?
22 A. That he was to interrogate him on account of a radio
23 transmitter and that he had to confess where it was and
24 that he knew everything that Susic had confessed.
25 Normally Susic had admitted nothing because he did not
1 have a radio transmitter. He did not know of any radio
2 transmitter so he admitted nothing of the kind.
3 Q. You said after that Mr. Delic came back and questioned
4 Zara Mrkajic about the results of his interrogation; is
5 that correct?
6 A. Yes, and he also beat Zara so as to force him to admit
7 something that -- to having something he did not have.
8 When that did not help, I have already said this, I do
9 not know if I need repeat this, what happened then.
10 Q. Yes, but did Delic say anything else and ask anything
11 else from Zara after this?
12 A. He asked whether he had. The man had confessed and he
13 beat Zara so that Zara would interrogate him again and
14 make him confess and admit to having something that he
15 did not have, as I have already repeated thrice. Then
16 Delic came and took him out and he was out with him.
17 Then he returned to the tunnel and said that he
18 confessed to having a radio transmitter at home. So
19 they went to him, his home. They went there, stayed
20 there some time and, of course, they did not find one.
21 He said he was cheating and lying and that he would
22 remember that.
23 Q. Did this visit to the house of Mr. Susic take place the
24 same day or the following morning?
25 A. It took place on the next day, this visit.
1 Q. Do you mean in the morning or in the afternoon?
2 A. In the morning, around 9 o'clock.
3 Q. So, around 9 o'clock, did Delic come back to the tunnel?
4 A. Yes, I think so, with Susic. He did, he did, after he
5 had gone to the house with him, allegedly to get the
6 radio transmitter. Then he returned with him to the
7 tunnel and beat him in the tunnel and the other man fell
8 in the tunnel and he went there without any results.
9 Q. When they came back from the house of Susic, do you
10 remember having heard something which Delic said before
11 beating Susic in the tunnel?
12 A. He kept accusing him because of the radio transmitter
13 and beating him because of the radio transmitter and the
14 man had no idea what he was talking about. After his
15 death, after Susic had been killed and after he had been
16 taken away -- I do not know where, I do not know where
17 they had thrown him -- Delic came back and in front of
18 all of us who were there incarcerated in tunnel number
19 nine, he said:
20 "Let me tell you something, from my private life."
21 He said that allegedly his grandfather in his
22 village in the time of the Second World War had killed
23 several people and that he had taken revenge upon Susic
24 for that, and Susic ended the way that he had. That is
25 all that he said in connection with Susic.
1 Q. Going back to this morning when Delic and Susic came
2 back from the house of Susic, with what did Delic beat
3 Susic inside the tunnel on this occasion?
4 A. He beat him with some sort of a rubber stick.
5 Q. For how long did he beat him on this occasion?
6 A. He beat him in the tunnel, starting from the door and
7 then halfway inside the tunnel until he fell. Then he
9 Q. You said that later on Zenga came; can you say at
10 approximately what time of this day did Zenga come?
11 A. Well, as we had a very poor sense of orientation in
12 terms of time of day and dates, I really cannot remember
13 exactly the time and the exact hour when this took
14 place. I cannot remember.
15 Q. All right. You said something about Zenga using pliers
16 with the tongue of Mr. Susic; what did Zenga do with the
17 tongue of Mr. Susic as far as you could see?
18 A. He pulled out the tongue, his tongue, with pliers and
19 twisted it. Then he used later a slow burning fuse to
20 torture him with, as I have already described. I do
21 not know whether I need repeat that. Of course, I can
22 do that.
23 Q. I just have some specific questions: you were talking
24 about fuse around the leg and around the waist?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. Can you describe exactly what did Zenga do with this
2 fuse or fuses? How many fuses were there - one or two
3 different fuses?
4 A. There were two fuses which were the same. He put one
5 around his leg and one around his belly under the
6 shirt. Then he ignited them. Of course it started
7 burning the man's skin and he started screaming and
8 begging him to take them off. However, the fuse burned
9 and did the damage it did, burning the man's skin.
10 Q. How did Mr. Landzo fix the fuses to the body? Did he fix
11 them in some way or simply wrap them?
12 A. On the leg he fastened them with some Scotch tape, I
13 believe, and as regards the one around the belly, he
14 just wrapped it under his shirt.
15 Q. So the fuses were wrapped around the skin, not over the
16 clothes; is that correct?
17 A. Yes, around the skin.
18 Q. How did Zenga light the two fuses, with what?
19 A. He had a match box and he used a match to ignite the
20 fuses. They normally started burning, and affecting
21 the body.
22 Q. Did the fuses around Susic's leg and waist burn entirely
23 or were they put off?
24 A. Yes, they burnt entirely.
25 Q. What did Zenga do in the meantime?
1 A. In the meantime, while the fuse was burning, he hit the
3 Q. With what?
4 A. He kicked him and he also hit him with the rifle butt.
5 Q. Did Mr. Landzo say anything while beating him during this
7 A. He asked him about the radio transmitter and kept
8 insisting that he say where it was, but he obviously
9 could not; and then he faired as he did.
10 Q. Approximately how long did this treatment last?
11 A. Certainly over 45 minutes, the burnings, the torture and
12 the pulling out of the tongue, in my assessment, perhaps
13 a bit longer.
14 Q. Could Mr. Susic move by himself after this treatment?
15 A. After Zenga's treatment, Landzo's treatment, that is,
16 Susic crawled on all-fours towards the place where he
17 had been sitting before in the rear of the tunnel, and
18 he crawled back to that place on all-fours.
19 Q. How long did Mr. Susic remain at his place after this
21 A. Mr. Susic, I am not quite sure of the time, but he stayed
22 there until Delic came, and when he came, he started
23 beating and maltreating him again and maltreating him
24 again about the radio transmitter. The man could not
25 even speak. He could not seen scream because he was on
1 the verge of death, as it were. Then he stopped
2 after. They stopped beating him. He died after a
3 couple of hours. The prisoners, when they saw that he
4 was showing no signs of life, took him to the front end
5 of the tunnel and there placed him in a position
6 befitting a dead man.
7 Q. Yes, you said this already, Mr. Kuljanin. Do you mean
8 Mr. Delic beat Susic inside the tunnel in the place where
9 Susic was sitting?
10 A. Yes. Let me just go back to the beginning, before
11 Susic came to the tunnel and before his death and all
12 this torture he had already been beaten black and blue
13 and bloody and swollen before he had come to the
14 tunnel. This all took place in the tunnel, and in
15 front of the tunnel, in front of the tunnel Landzo
16 tortured him and inside the tunnel Delic did.
17 Q. I am talking about the last time Delic beat Susic inside
18 the tunnel?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Did Delic say anything before beating Susic and during
21 the beating, I mean, during this last beating?
22 A. Yes, he did. He said that the Chetnik would not
23 confess to having a radio station and to having guided
24 shells to Celebici. In fact, I did not hear of a
25 single shell landing at Celebici, but allegedly this man
1 had been guiding them.
2 Q. When did you realise that Susic was dead?
3 A. I realised that when these people who were sitting near
4 him said that he was dead, that he was not showing signs
5 of life any longer. Then this news was transmitted
6 from prisoner to prisoner and I could definitively see
7 he was dead when they brought him to the front end of
8 the tunnel, where he lay for two days unmoving or,
9 rather, dead.
10 Q. So you mean that the body lay on the floor of the tunnel
11 right near you; is that correct?
12 A. Yes, right in front of me. My legs were over his body.
13 Q. Okay. So, could you personally observe that Susic did
14 not have any sign of life any more, was motionless?
15 A. Yes, he was rigid. He was stiff for two days and two
16 nights. He was obviously rigid.
17 Q. You said the body remained there for a couple of days;
18 is that correct?
19 A. Yes, two days and two nights. It was completely blue,
20 as if he had taken an ink bath.
21 Q. What injuries were visible on the body, as far as you
22 could see?
23 A. As I have already stated, he was bruised and blue, and
24 he had a cut on his lips, probably from the pliers with
25 which his tongue had been pulled out. In addition to
1 that, his eyes were totally swollen and shut from the
2 blows normally.
3 Q. Mr. Kuljanin, were the burns visible on the leg and on
4 the waist?
5 A. Yes, they were visible, quite conspicuous in fact, the
6 burns on the leg and on the body elsewhere, and the
7 shirt which he had been wearing was torn.
8 Q. After the body of Susic was finally removed, did you
9 ever see it again after that or never again?
10 A. No, never again did I see that body.
11 Q. All right. So, this is, I would say, the end of the
12 Susic's incident.
13 Did you eyewitness any other incident concerning
14 any other prisoner who died?
15 A. I would like to mention the murder, the killing of
16 Zeljko Milosevic. I should also like in that
17 connection to mention some journalists and the camera
18 crew which came to the prison. I cannot remember
19 exactly what country they had come from, but they came
20 to film the prisoners, that is us. Delic called Rayko
21 Dordzic and Zeljko Milosevic to be filmed by the camera
22 and to tell the journalist and the TV crew and that took
23 place in front of tunnel number nine, to tell them how
24 they had tortured Muslim women and raped Muslim women
25 and tortured and killed children, but Zeljko Milosevic
1 would not admit anything of the kind and would not make
2 any such statement on that score and Rajko Dordzic also
3 could not confess to doing something that he had not
4 done. Delic returned them to tunnel number nine, from
5 which they had come, and when the journalists had left,
6 he entered the tunnel again and said that they would
7 remember him well. Zeljko, however, remained for
8 another couple of days in the tunnel. Delic then came
9 and told him to get ready around 1 pm. Then Delic came
10 and called Milosevic. I cannot say exactly when he
11 came. It was night. It was perhaps midnight or 2
12 o'clock am. It was pitch dark. He took Zeljko out
13 personally. He called him to come out and took him
14 out. After they had gone out, we heard Zeljko
15 screaming and moaning and crying out. In the morning
16 when they took us out to go to the toilet, Zeljko
17 Milosevic was behind the door lying there dead. We saw
18 him as we passed on our way to the toilet. But let me
19 mention in this connection, before they kill him Zeljko
20 Milosevic had been shut down in a manhole filled with
21 water with Rajko Djordjic, where he had spent the whole
22 night. When he returned from the manhole, he was
23 soaking wet. I had a track suit, and as his clothes were
24 wet, I gave him my track suite as a change of clothes so
25 that he could put something dry on.
1 Now to connect this to the murder, when I saw him
2 he was wearing my track suit, and another, some sort of a
3 parka, was also draped over his head. I recognised him
4 and I could tell that it was Zeljko Milosevic by the
5 fact that he was wearing that suit.
6 Q. All right, Mr. Kuljanin, let me ask some specific
7 questions on this incident. Approximately when did
8 this incident happen, at least in which month?
9 A. I spent around 110 days in the tunnel. All this took
10 place during this 110 days which I spent there.
11 Whether it was the beginning or July or the end of June,
12 I cannot really tell. I do not orient myself really
13 quite well, because we really, at least as far as
14 I myself am concerned, cannot remember these more
15 important dates because I could not orient myself in the
16 space of time there. So I cannot say exactly.
17 Possibly, it was the end of June or July, but his
18 killing took place after Slavko Susic's incident.
19 Q. After the Slavko Susic's incident?
20 A. Yes, after that.
21 Q. Where did Zeljko Milosevic sit inside the tunnel?
22 A. Zeljko Milosevic sat somewhere in the middle of the
23 tunnel, halfway down the tunnel in the middle of the
25 Q. So you say that the night of his death he was called out
1 by Mr. Delic in the night and you heard screaming. For
2 how long did you hear screaming from outside?
3 A. Yes, we heard him screaming for over an hour. I am not
4 quite sure how long over an hour, but it was an hour at
5 least and longer than that. So he had actually
6 forewarned him of what was to come and told him to be
7 ready at 1, and that was what happened.
8 Q. You say that in the morning, going to the toilet outside
9 you saw the body outside of the tunnel entrance. Did
10 you see the body, both going to the toilet and coming
11 back from the toilet?
12 A. Yes, it was there on our way and when we were coming
13 back to the tunnel, both times.
14 Q. Can you say approximately how many minutes had passed
15 between the time you saw the body while going to the
16 toilet and the time you saw the body while coming back
17 from the toilet?
18 A. All this took place within the space of five or six
19 minutes. Our time also was limited when it came to our
20 going to the toilet.
21 Q. Was the body in the same position both times and was it
23 A. It was motionless and it was in the same position both
25 Q. You say that you could recognise Milosevic by the
1 garment you lent him, yes?
2 A. Yes, I recognise the Milosevic by the clothing which I
3 had lent him and his sneakers which he used to wear when
4 he was alive and when he stayed in the tunnel with the
5 rest of us.
6 Q. Was the face of Mr. Milosevic covered?
7 A. His face was covered up to his forehead. He was
8 bald. He only had some hair on the back of his head
9 and I also recognised him by that.
10 Q. Mr. Kuljanin, did you ever have a chance to see again
11 Zeljko Milosevic or his body after this?
12 A. No, no, I did not.
13 Q. Thank you very much. Now, did you personally -- did
14 you ever see any of the guards coming to tunnel nine
15 while you were there, beside the occasions you have been
16 talking about so far?
17 A. I did not understand the question; if you would be kind
18 to repeat it.
19 Q. Did you see the guards or any of the guards coming to
20 tunnel nine while you were there on other occasions
21 besides the occasions you have been already talking
22 about until now?
23 A. Yes, the guards stood at the door and some soldiers,
24 some uniformed persons, would come in and beat us.
25 They were people whom we did not know. The guards
1 themselves did not come inside number nine often, but
2 they did take us out in front of tunnel nine and beat us
3 there because they did not have enough space inside.
4 Q. All right, thank you. So, Mr. Kuljanin, you said you
5 stayed in the tunnel for about 100 to 120 days; did
6 you stay in any other building inside the detention camp
7 besides tunnel nine?
8 A. I stayed in hangar number six. Let me just mention
9 one other thing which happened while I was still in
10 tunnel number nine. As I have already said, there were
11 around 30 to 40 of us prisoners in tunnel number nine.
12 After 90 or 100 days Pavo Mucic came with some kind of a
13 list and he singled out a number of the prisoners from
14 tunnel number nine and he had them lined up in front of
15 the tunnel. Thereafter, he transferred them to hangar
16 number six. I remained in tunnel number nine with
17 another 17 men and after this Hazim Delic, entered the
18 tunnel number nine and said to us that we had been left
19 there for the mine fields and that we would never leave
20 the tunnel except when we head for the mine fields.
21 Normally we thought that that would naturally be our
22 fate, as we could not expect anything better in view of
23 the treatment that we were receiving and the conditions
24 that prevailed there. However, it did happen that we
25 got out ourselves after 10 or 15 days out of tunnel
1 number nine and were transferred ourselves to hangars
2 number six as well.
3 Q. So can you say approximately when did you move to
4 hangar six, at least in what month?
5 A. I think it must have been September.
6 Q. Who called you out of the tunnel in order to bring you
7 to hangar six?
8 A. Mucic left us in the tunnel and one of the guards came
9 to take us out from number nine and to transfer us to
10 hangar number six. Who gave the orders, I really do
11 not know, for this transfer to hangar number six, I do
12 not know.
13 Q. How long did you stay inside hangar six, approximately?
14 A. I stayed in hangar number six three, three-and-a-half,
15 maybe four months, I am not quite sure. After which, I
16 was transferred to the Musala camp in Konjic. When we
17 were transferred to hangar number six, as I said, 17 of
18 us, 17 prisoners, that same night the guards came, named
19 Zilic and Camdzic were among them, and they started
20 calling out names from the list of 17 people from number
21 nine and to beat us. They beat us for several nights
22 running, just those of us who had come from number
23 nine. And they said that they were doing so under
24 orders of the Command. I did not recognise many of the
25 guards who were participating in this who were beating
1 us during those nights, except for Landzo, Dedic and
2 Camdzic. I could not recognise the others because it
3 was nighttime and we had to face the wall against the
4 hangar, so I could not see them.
5 Q. Did you personally suffer any other physical
6 maltreatment during your stay in hanger six?
7 A. I could mention one of those cases of maltreatment in
8 hanger number six was when we were taken to steal some
9 goods for Mucic from the neighbouring hangar, next to
10 hangar number six. We were taken out of the hangars.
11 I was taken out together with four other men during the
12 night by Sejo -- I do not recall his surname -- and he
13 took us to the neighbouring hangar where there was
14 food. And we had to steal that food and we found
15 hangar -- we found Mucic there. He ordered us to load
16 this food on to his van and he transported those goods
17 to his home with this van. We would go home with him
18 and unload this stuff to his basement or garage. This
19 happened twice. The first night that this took place
20 we returned just before dawn to the hangars, I think it
21 was about five o'clock. The guards came that night
22 again and the four of us who went were beaten. Among
23 the guards were Camdzic and Zilic. I do not recall the
24 names of the others. When we went the second time to
25 steal or to take, whichever you prefer, these goods,
1 again it was night time, Sejo came and three others. I
2 can give you the names. I remember Radovan Mr.sic, Relja
3 Mrkajic and Radovan.
4 Q. The doctor?
5 A. No, no doctor, no. It was not the doctor and Radovan
6 Mrkajic. That second night we were stealing again and
7 when we -- the next night Hazim Delic came to the
8 hangar and said those four who went on a tour the
9 previous night should come out. We knew that he meant
10 us, but we did not go out straight away. Then he
11 called us out by name. When we went out, he ordered us
12 to face the wall and he started beating us together with
13 some other guards, whom I did not see. Those were some
14 of the incidents I experienced with the exception of
15 spades, with which Delic beat us, for instance, until we
16 were virtually unconscious.
17 Q. Mr. Kuljanin, let me ask you a specific question on these
18 incident that you have been talking about right now.
19 You have been talking about two visits to the house of
20 Mr. Mucic with a van. Who was driving the van on these
21 two occasions?
22 A. Mucic.
23 Q. Who was in the van besides Mucic?
24 A. There was us, who went to steal the goods, to take those
25 goods on his behalf, to steal them on his behalf, and
1 the guards.
2 Q. Now let us talk about what happened after the second
3 time when you said that the following evening Delic came
4 and asked for the people who were on tower. What did
5 Delic say exactly in this occasion?
6 A. When we came out and when he started beating us together
7 with the guards with him, he said that these blows, some
8 were for the flowers, some were for the chocolate. He
9 kept listing the things we had taken. I do not even
10 remember. In any event, it was food stuffs that he was
11 referring to, and as far as I could see.
12 Q. With what did they beat you?
13 A. They beat us with rifle butts, with their boots, with
15 Q. How long did they beat you?
16 A. About half an hour, 40 minutes. They beat some more,
17 some less; it depended.
18 Q. What about these two occasions you brought food to the
19 house of Mr. Mucic, were two occasions close to each
20 other? How many days, how many...
21 A. A couple of days approximately in between.
22 Q. And, very approximately, when did all this happen, at
23 least in which month?
24 A. No, I really cannot remember what month it was.
25 Q. All right, never mind. So what else -- did you
1 personally suffer any other physical maltreatment
2 besides all this during your stay in hangar six?
3 A. Yes, the perpetrator was Hazim Delic. He beat me with
4 a shovel with his boots; he kicked me, all kinds of
5 things; he took me out; he beat me inside; in addition,
6 when he beat all of us with the shovel, together with
7 his guards -- and the names I could mention is Camdzic
8 and Zilic. This happened very frequently, almost every
9 other day.
10 Q. All right. Is this all, was there any other incident
11 you suffered personally while during the period of your
12 stay in hangar six, is this all? You have some other
13 incident to talk about?
14 A. To tell you the truth, there were instances almost every
15 day when Delic with his guards would hit us with
16 shovels, with the handles of shovels. This was
17 happening almost every day that we were staying, that we
18 stayed in hangars number six in Celebici.
19 Q. Was there any other time you were called out of the
21 A. I could mention also, yes, when we were taken to clean
22 up in front of Delalic's house. There were guards,
23 security people, and a man in civilian clothes came in
24 and pointed to four or five prisoners. I was one of
25 them. He just pointed and we had to follow him. We
1 did not know where we were going. When we got into the
2 jeep that took us there, we arrived in Konjic in front
3 of Delalic's house. It was raining and there was some
4 sand and some stones there and we had to clean it up.
5 With me was Dragan Dordic, Milan Gligorovic, Boran
6 Mrkajic and Zeljko Kuljanin. When we arrived in front
7 of Delalic's house there was very strong security.
8 There was some close -- with crew cuts, there was some
9 men with crew cuts and they were -- the men were saying
10 to us that we would never be released, we would have to
11 work for Delalic for as long as we lived. They were
12 beating us all the time. We were clearing up there.
13 They would beat us, kick us, they would say these
14 things, threatening us that where he would never get
15 out, that we would have to work for Delalic for as long
16 as we lived.
17 Q. Mr. Kuljanin, can you describe the place where they
18 brought you, this house?
19 A. They took us to the town of Konjic, where the house of
20 the mentioned person was at the entrance to the town,
21 the beginning of the town. That's where his house
22 was. We had to clean up. We were mistreated and
23 threatened and we took these threats very seriously.
24 Q. I mean, can you describe this place with more detail?
25 What was around the house?
1 A. The house, near the house is a hotel, across the street,
2 a petrol station. Between the hotel and that house
3 there is a parking lot. Next to the house is the
4 Neretva river flowing. The house is on the main Mostar
5 to Sarajevo road. That is the building.
6 Q. How do you know this was the house of Mr. Delalic?
7 A. Actually, before the war, they there used to be a
8 mechanics shop. Then there was a discotechque there
9 that I used to go to. And I would drive there together
10 with a colleague to that discotechque, so I knew it very
11 well. I know exactly where it was and what it looked
13 Q. Do you know the first name of Mr. Delalic?
14 A. Yes, I do: Zejnil Delalic.
15 Q. How long did this cleaning last?
16 A. The cleaning lasted about three or four hours, four,
17 something like that.
18 Q. How many guards were around the place there where you
19 were cleaning up?
20 A. Well, roughly about 10 - 10 or so guards, well, armed
21 guards, very well equipped, around the house and in
22 front of the house.
23 Q. Were they in uniform?
24 A. Yes, they were in uniform and well armed. It was like
25 a combat equipment that they were wearing.
1 Q. Can you say which kind of an uniform did they wear?
2 A. They had camouflage uniforms, standard camouflage
3 uniforms, with the insignia, their insignia with the
5 Q. How did these guards treat you during the cleaning of
6 the house?
7 A. I have already said that they hit us, that they beat us,
8 that they threatened us, that they said that we would
9 spend our life working for Delalic and that everything
10 depended on him - our future fate depended on him.
11 Q. Could you say with what did they beat you?
12 A. They kicked us an they beat us with rifles.
13 Q. At the end of it, who drove you back to Celebici?
14 A. One of the soldiers who was there, they drove us back,
15 he drove us back.
16 Q. All right, Mr. Kuljanin, did you know Mr. Delic from
17 before the war?
18 A. By sight.
19 Q. Could you observe what official role did Mr. Delic have
20 in the Celebici camp?
21 A. Delic's role was to stand in for Mucic when he was not
22 there. He was the one who had the main say.
23 Q. How did you get to know Mr. Delic's name?
24 A. I learnt of his name from the prisoners who were in
25 tunnel number nine. Some of those prisoners had worked
1 with Delic for years. They were colleagues, and that
2 is how I learnt his name.
3 Q. Can you describe physically, Mr. Delic?
4 A. I can. He is tall, bald, strong built, that is it.
5 Q. Did you know Mr. Landzo from before the war?
6 A. I did not know him from before the war. I met him at
7 the camp itself.
8 Q. How did you get to know Landzo's name and nickname
10 A. We heard others calling him by that name, his colleagues
11 who helped him do the work he was doing.
12 Q. Can you describe Mr. Landzo?
13 A. I can.
14 Q. Yes, please do that.
15 A. He was at the time in the camp, he was short, thin, with
16 short hair, very short hair at the time while he was in
17 the camp.
18 Q. Do you know what was the role of Mr. Mucic inside the
19 Celebici camp?
20 A. His role was, I think he was the commander, the
21 manager. I do not know, but anyway his word meant a
22 lot. He would make lists for the exchange and things
23 like that.
24 Q. Did you see him --
25 A. He would determine the groups.
1 Q. Did you see him in the camp besides the two occasions
2 you just mentioned?
3 A. Yes, I saw him quite a number of times.
4 Q. Where in the camp did you see him?
5 A. Within the camp grounds. Very often he would drive a
6 motorbike round the grounds. I would also see him
7 coming by car. He was there very often. He would go
8 to the command building. I would see him with a
10 Q. Do you remember very approximately when you saw Mr. Mucic
11 for the first time, at least in which month?
12 A. I cannot remember. I cannot.
13 Q. Did Mr. Mucic use to wear a uniform?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Could you say which kind of a uniform?
16 A. A camouflage uniform like all the others who were in the
17 camp, including the guards and all the others.
18 Q. Did you ever notice any insignia on his uniform?
19 A. Insignia, no, I did not see them.
20 Q. Did Mr. Mucic ever talk to you besides what you have
21 already said?
22 A. He did not talk to me. On one occasion he spoke to me
23 in connection with an exchange. That was a very brief
24 conversation and that was all I talked to him about.
25 Q. All right, Mr. Kuljanin. Were you ever interrogated by
1 military investigators during your stay in Celebici?
2 A. At the beginning.
3 Q. Where in the camp did that happen?
4 A. In the command building.
5 Q. How many people did interrogate you?
6 A. There were two people who interrogated us and who
7 escorted us to the office and stood as security while we
8 were being investigated. Of course we were tied up.
9 Q. Do you remember the names of these two people
10 interrogating you?
11 A. I do not remember their names.
12 Q. Were these two people in uniform?
13 A. Yes, they were in uniform.
14 Q. And was there a long interrogation?
15 A. So so, half an hour.
16 Q. How were you treated during the interrogation by these
17 two people?
18 A. During the interrogation they were very aggressive and
19 rude. They would not accept anything that we said that
20 did not suit them.
21 Q. By the way were you accused of anything specific by
22 these two people?
23 A. I do not know, I have know idea. Obviously I must have
24 been accused since I spent so much time there. They
25 probably did. They charged me with my nationality.
1 They had no other grounds.
2 Q. What did they ask you, do you remember some questions
3 they asked you?
4 A. For instance, are you a member of the SDS, are you a
5 member of this, are you a member of that. All manner
6 of things. I really do not remember the details.
7 Q. What did you answer?
8 A. Talking about this question whether I was a member of
9 the SDS. At that time I really was not. So I had no
10 reason to hide it and I had no reason to say I was if I
11 was not, but when I said that I was not a member of the
12 SDS they started yelling and shouting saying "you are
13 all members. You are all Chetniks," this and that. So
14 they had to accept at the time that I was not a member
15 of the SDS. I am today, I am a member and I am not
16 concealing the fact.
17 Q. Was anybody typing a record during the interrogation?
18 A. At the time no, no, there was no one.
19 Q. During the interrogation were your hands free or tied?
20 A. We were tied. My hands were tied behind my back during
21 the first interrogation.
22 Q. Well, we will talk about the second occasion later on.
23 So did anybody untie your hands during this
25 A. No, they did not.
1 Q. Were your hands tied with a rope or with handcuffs?
2 A. Some with wires, some with ropes. My hands were tied
3 with wire.
4 Q. Did you sign any piece of paper after that
6 A. A couple of days later I signed a piece of paper. I have
7 no idea what it says on that paper.
8 Q. So what happened a couple of days later? When did you
9 go, when did you sign this piece of paper?
10 A. I cannot remember exactly how much later this was to the
11 time when we made this statement, or rather we signed it
12 without even reading it. I cannot remember how much time
13 went by. Roughly three or four, maybe five days.
14 Q. Mr. Kuljanin, my question is: where, in which place did
15 you put your signature on this paper?
16 A. At the bottom of the paper.
17 Q. No, no --
18 A. In the command building. In the command building where
19 we made the statement the first time.
20 Q. So, were you brought to the command building again with
21 hands tied behind the back or not?
22 A. Yes, we were tied, but this time in front and not with
23 wire, but with ropes this time.
24 Q. Did they untie your hands in order to have you sign the
1 A. Our hands were untied for us to sign the paper. Then
2 they tied us up again until we were taken back to the
4 Q. Could you read the record before signing it?
5 A. No, I did not.
6 Q. Was there any judicial proceedings against you after
8 A. Against some there were judicial proceedings, but not
9 against me.
10 Q. All right. So Mr. Kuljanin, did the Red Cross ever visit
11 the camp while you were in Celebici?
12 A. The Red Cross came several times to the Celebici camp.
13 Q. What happened before, during and after these visits?
14 A. When the Red Cross came for the first time to register
15 us, to see us, we were so happy, so glad, but when the
16 Red Cross left, when they departed from the camp, we
17 were tortured so badly and persecuted that the next time
18 they came we did not want to even look at them, not to
19 mention speak to them because we had this terrible
20 experience from their first visit, but the Red Cross
21 promised that we would have no problems, that we would
22 talk without the presence of the guards and the other
23 staff of the camp, but when they left they continued
24 beating us, saying that we had said this or that and all
25 kinds of things. So that the second time we did not
1 want, nor did we dare to talk to them.
2 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: I think the Trial Chamber will break
3 here and we will resume at 2.30 for the afternoon
5 (The Luncheon Adjournment).
6 (2.30 pm).
7 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Good afternoon, ladies and
8 gentlemen. So we continue from where we stopped.
9 MR. TURONE: Thank you, your Honour.
10 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Inform the witness that he is still on
11 his oath.
12 THE REGISTRAR: Mr. Kuljanin, may I remind you that you are
13 still on your oath?
14 A. Yes.
15 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Carry on.
16 MR. TURONE: Thank you, your Honour. Mr. Kuljanin, during
17 your stay in Celebici did you ever learn Mr. Landzo's
18 first name?
19 A. No, nor was I interested.
20 Q. Did you used to call him with a nickname?
21 A. No.
22 Q. Going back to your arrest, Mr. Kuljanin, did anybody take
23 your valuables on the occasion of your arrest?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. What did they take from you?
1 A. They took a ring and a bracelet from me.
2 Q. Did you ever get your property back?
3 A. No.
4 Q. After your stay in Celebici, can you say when did you
5 leave Celebici camp?
6 A. I can't say exactly -- I cannot say exactly, but I
7 believe it was the November, beginning of December.
8 Q. Of 1992?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. What happened to you when you left Celebici?
11 A. I was transferred to the Musala camp at Konjic.
12 Q. How long did you stay in the Musala camp?
13 A. Until the 3rd November 1993.
14 Q. Was that the day when you were released from any kind of
16 A. Yes I alone was released from the Musala camp.
17 Q. All right, thank you very much, Mr. Kuljanin?
18 A. You are welcome.
19 Q. This is the end of my examination-in-chief, your Honour,
20 thank you very much?
21 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Any cross-examination and the pattern
22 in which you are agreed to take.
23 MR. O'SULLIVAN: Yes, we will proceeds this way first
24 counsel for Mr. Delic, second counsel for Mr. Landzo,
25 third counsel for Mr. Delalic and fourth counsel for
1 Mr. Mucic
2 Cross-examination by Mr. Moran.
3 MR. MORAN: Your Honour, if I could have a second to get
4 situated and plugged in. May it please the Court.
5 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Yes, you can.
6 Q. Thank you, your Honour. Good afternoon, sir.
7 A. Good afternoon.
8 Q. My name is Tom Moran and I am a defence lawyer here and
9 I am going to ask you some questions. Will you listen
10 to the question that I ask and just answer that
11 question. Can you do that for me, sir?
12 A. Yes, sir.
13 Q. The other thing is, if you do not understand one of my
14 questions, if I talk too fast or if my questions are
15 hard to understand or you do not know what I am asking,
16 will you stop me and ask me to repeat it?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Okay. So that you will not have any problems
19 understanding the question. So there will not be any
20 surprises, generally I am going it ask you questions
21 pretty much in the order of the things that you were
22 asked by Mr. Turone. So there will not be any
23 surprises, but the first thing that I am going to ask
24 you about is the last thing you talked about. You said
25 you were released from Musala on November 3rd 1993,
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. That is not quite true, is it?
4 A. I did not say that I was released. I actually
5 liberated myself from the camp and the torture that I
6 was being subjected to. No one released me.
7 Q. Yes, in fact you and several other people overpowered
8 the guards and escaped, did you not?
9 A. Yes, we did.
10 Q. So if someone would have understood you to say that you
11 were released, that would be a misunderstanding, would
12 it not?
13 A. Yes, I was not released.
14 Q. In fact when you overpowered that guards you took his
15 weapon, did you not?
16 A. Yes, I did I took it.
17 Q. You kidnapped him too, did you not?
18 A. No, I did not, we did not. We let him go. We acted
19 humanely towards him. We let him go home.
20 Q. Where did you take him from the camp before you let him
21 go home?
22 A. He had truly led us. It was not us that led him. He
23 was the one that had led us to the front line to dig
24 trenches, but we took our chance, we disarmed him and we
25 took him with us until we saw that we were safe. Then
1 we let him go back to his home. We said goodbye to him
2 in a humane fashion. We told him to tell the real truth
3 about how we had treated him. Then we went on our way
4 and crossed over to Croatian territory. The Croatian
5 Army took us in. They were good to us. We spent a
6 couple of hours. They gave us some food. Then they
7 let us go on towards the Serbian territory.
8 Q. Okay. Let us go back to the Battle of Bradina, if we
9 could, okay. Can you do that for me? Did you have any
11 A. I personally did not have any.
12 Q. None at all?
13 A. No, none at all.
14 Q. Not even a fully automatic 7.62 millimetres rifle?
15 A. No.
16 Q. The only weapons that were there in the whole city were
17 a few pistols and hunting rifles. That is what you
18 testified to under direct examination, all right?
19 A. As far as I know, yes.
20 Q. You were pretty familiar with what was going on in
21 Bradina, were you not?
22 A. What was going on, I am sorry?
23 Q. You were pretty well familiar with what kind of weapons
24 people had in Bradina, were you not?
25 A. Sorry, I did not understand the question.
1 Q. Sure. If people had weapons in Bradina, you pretty
2 well knew about it. You had a pretty good idea about
3 what various people had?
4 A. I knew some people who had personal weapons and I knew
5 some who went hunting and had hunting weapons.
6 Q. But you never saw any military-type weapons anywhere in
7 the city; is that right?
8 A. No.
9 Q. So if they would have been around, you would have seen
10 them, would you not?
11 A. Absolutely, I would have.
12 Q. Your Honour, there is a series of photographs, I believe
13 Delic exhibits, the weapons photographs, if those could
14 be shown to the witness - just the ones that are in
15 evidence. I am going to ask you to take a look at some
16 pictures and see if there were any of these at all in
17 Bradina, okay?
18 A. I can take a look at them.
19 Q. By the way, before they come over there, you are
20 familiar with military weapons because of your service
21 in the military police; is that not right?
22 A. Absolutely.
23 Q. That service in the military police --
24 A. I served with the Yugoslavia People's Army in 1987 and
25 1988 prior to the war - just to clarify.
1 Q. I was going to get to that next. You served your two
2 years of compulsory service in the Yugoslav National
4 A. One year.
5 Q. You are being shown a group of pictures. If you go
6 through those and see if you recollect any of those
7 weapons as weapons you saw in Bradina before the Battle
8 of Bradina?
9 A. No, this one I saw when I was serving in the Yugoslav
10 People Army. This one I've never seen.
11 Q. Okay, that's fine. I believe there is some more
12 pictures coming.
13 A. This one I also saw while I was serving in the army.
14 Q. But not in Bradina, prior to the Battle of Bradina?
15 A. No.
16 Q. How about that one?
17 A. That one I also saw while I was serving in the army and
18 in movies, war movies that had been shown prior to the
19 war, movies from the Second World War, that is.
20 Q. But not in the Battle of Bradina?
21 A. No.
22 Q. That one?
23 A. Yes, I have, also while in the army.
24 Q. But not in Bradina?
25 A. No.
1 Q. That one?
2 A. Yes, I have seen this one but not in Bradina.
3 Q. Next. That is it. Okay. Were there any roadblocks
4 put up by the people of Bradina to keep -- to keep
5 people from going on the main road through the village?
6 A. Yes, there were some blocks, but they were not erected
7 by the villagers of Bradina, but by military formation
8 Muslim and Croatian formation who blocked both tunnel
9 through which one could pass through Bradina. I see no
10 reason why anyone should erect any barricades after
11 everything that had happened and why people should be
12 stopped from passing through Bradina. I do not know of
13 any such case, your Honour.
14 Q. If somebody said somebody set up blocks through Bradina,
15 those people would be lying or be wrong; is that
17 A. Absolutely.
18 Q. There was absolutely no organised defence of Bradina, is
19 that what you want the Court to understand your
20 testimony to be?
21 A. Yes. If you say that there was some sort of an
22 organised action mounted by soldiers in Bradina, there
23 wouldn't be 80 dead people in Bradina killed by the unit
24 which attacked it and numbers lost on their side. I
25 believe that the victims tell all.
1 Q. So I understand your answer; as I understand it, what
2 you said was there was no organised defence of the
3 village of Bradina. Is my understanding correct, sir?
4 A. Yes, there was no organised defence and the victims are
5 telling enough.
6 Q. Okay, fine. Let us go on to your capture. You were
7 captured either on 29th or 30th May 1992; is that right?
8 A. Yes, somewhere around that time.
9 Q. You were taken where, to a school, right?
10 A. Yes, to a school in Ljuta, and from the school we were
11 taken to Bjeljasinca to the Hotel Famos.
12 Q. Let start with the school, you were kicked and beaten
13 very severely at that school, were you not?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Then you were taken to the hotel?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Where you were beaten again, right?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. And from the hotel you were put on a truck to head
20 towards Celebici, right?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. And it was cash --
23 A. En route itself members of the Muslim paramilitary
24 formations were escorting us on the truck shot at us,
25 prisoners who were sitting on the floor of the truck and
1 we were tied. On that occasion they killed a prisoner
2 and wounded four of them.
3 Q. I thought we had an agreement that you would listen to
4 my questions and just answer the questions that I
5 asked. If we do not have that agreement can we reach
6 that agreement, sir?
7 A. Okay, absolutely, I am sorry.
8 Q. Okay. Thank you. In fact Dragan Vudicic was shot on
9 the way to the camp and several other people were
10 wounded; is that not right?
11 A. Yes, it is.
12 Q. Okay, when you arrived at Celebici -- let me back off
13 just a second. You mentioned at the end of your direct
14 examination that at some point after your arrest your
15 property was taken from you; is that not right? Do you
16 remember testifying to that?
17 A. Yes, my property was seized in tunnel number nine.
18 Q. It was?
19 A. In tunnel number nine.
20 Q. Okay. Do you know a man called Zilic?
21 A. Zilic.
22 Q. Yes.
23 A. Yes, I do.
24 Q. Are you familiar with a building named -- and I am going
25 to spell it, I cannot pronounce it, my Serbian is
1 awfully poor -- D-R-U-S-T-V-E-N-I-D-O-M; are you
2 familiar with that building, sir?
3 A. Yes, I am.
4 Q. Where is that building?
5 A. It is in the centre of the city.
6 Q. Okay, so do you remember making a statement to the
7 office of the prosecutor over a two-day period in
8 October 1995?
9 A. What did I state -- I do not understand.
10 Q. I am just asking you if you remember making a statement,
12 A. Here at that building.
13 Q. No, I am asking whether you remember making a statement
14 to the office of the prosecutor in October 1995 after
15 your escape?
16 A. I do not remember.
17 Q. You do not remember making a statement at all?
18 A. No.
19 Q. If the usher could show him both an English and a
20 Bosnian copy of this statement. So I am borrowing the
21 English copy from Ms. McMurrey, so I have to have it
22 back. Sir, if you look at the English version, because
23 that is the original, does that look like your signature
24 on it?
25 A. Yes, yes, it is.
1 Q. Now does that help you remember whether or not you made
2 a statement to the office of the prosecutor?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. In that statement, when you made that statement an
5 investigator from the office of the prosecutor asked you
6 some questions, right?
7 A. Right.
8 Q. You would answer those questions and someone would write
9 them down; is that correct?
10 A. It is.
11 Q. You knew that this was an important thing when you were
12 making this statement; right?
13 A. Yes, I did.
14 Q. You wanted to tell the truth in that statement, did you
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. In fact you told the truth and the whole truth and
18 nothing but the truth when you made that statement; is
19 that not right?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. After you got through making the statement it was read
22 back to you in Serbian; do you remember it now?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Then you had a chance to make any corrections that you
25 wanted to make, did you not?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Any additions you wanted to make you could have added,
4 A. I could have, but I probably did not because I did not
5 have enough time.
6 Q. So the investigator from the office of the prosecutor
7 rushed you so much that you did not have time to get the
8 statement correct; is that what you are saying, sir?
9 A. No, no, he did not rush me. I rushed my own self
10 because I did not have time.
11 Q. You were in a hurry, and because you were in a hurry you
12 just rushed through this statement?
13 A. Umm hmm, yes.
14 Q. Because you were in a hurry to get about the rest of
15 your business, right, whatever the rest of your business
17 A. I was also in a dilemma facing this honourable court
18 here or not, so I did not pay that much attention to it.
19 Q. So you were in so much of a hurry you did not pay so
20 much attention to it; is that right?
21 A. Absolutely correct, I did not.
22 Q. Did you read the "witness acknowledgment" on the page
23 with your signature on it on the back? Why do you not
24 take the Bosnian version right now and read it over, and
25 I can read it in English and we can see if it says the
1 same thing. It is way in the back where your signature
2 it on the Bosnian version, approximately the last
3 page. It says "witness acknowledgment". See if you
4 can find that. Did you find it?
5 A. Yes, I found the witness acknowledgment.
6 Q. Okay, let us go over it. Lets see what it says. I do
7 not think that he has it. If someone could help him
8 find it. It should be on the last page. Your Honour,
9 we have another copy. We can let him read it off
10 this. Sir, we are going to hand you another copy and
11 we will take some copies back in a minute because you
12 are getting loaded with paper, where it says "witness
13 acknowledgment" up there at the top of the page?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. On the page on the left-hand side.
16 A. Yes, on the left side, but there is no signature.
17 Q. I understand that, sir. That is a Bosnian translation
18 from the original English. Let us go over this and see
19 if this is what you read and had read to you. It says:
20 "This statement has been read over to me in the
21 Serbian language and is true to the best of my knowledge
22 and recollection."
23 Do you remember someone reading that sentence to
24 you right before you signed? Do you remember that,
25 sir? . Then they went on and said --
1 A. Not too well.
2 Q. Then went on and said:
3 "I have given this Statement voluntarily and am
4 aware that it may be used in legal proceedings before
5 the International Criminal Tribunal for the Prosecution
6 of Persons Responsible for Serious Violations of
7 International Law Committed in the Territory of the
8 Former Yugoslavia since 1991, and that I may be called
9 to give evidence ... before the Tribunal."
10 Do you remember them saying that to you before you
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. So it was made pretty clear to you, was it not, that
14 this was and important interview and an important
15 document, was it not?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. This is an important criminal court since World War II,
18 so that is a pretty big thing in your life?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. But you were rushed when you gave the statement, so you
21 are not sure whether you were correct or not; is that
22 what you are telling the judges?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Let us go over some of the things in that statement.
25 When you said, you said all your property was taken from
1 you in tunnel nine. Now if you look at the Serbian
2 statement, the translation, does it not say:
3 "When we arrive at Konjic the convoy stopped in
4 front of their military command, the building".
5 The building's name was Drustveni Dom?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. "Zilic ordered the soldiers in the truck to search us.
8 Zilic ordered: 'Search them.' 'Take their ID cards and
9 bring them to me.' The soldiers searched us, took all
10 of our valuables and gave them to Zilic.
11 "Zilic then said: 'I want everything. Don't let
12 me catch you holding anything back from me'."
13 You said that in your written statement, did you
15 A. Yes, but there were some things that were hidden: for
16 instance, they took my chain, but I also had a bracelet
17 and a ring, as I already said, and I hid them. I gave
18 those to them in tunnel number nine. They did not find
19 it and I gave the gold chain to Zilic.
20 Q. So when you said in your statement to the office of the
21 prosecutors "The soldiers then searched us, took all our
22 valuables and gave them to Zilic", that was incorrect;
23 is that what you are saying? Pardon me, sir.
24 A. No, they searched us, that is true, but they could not
25 find everything because we hid it in our socks, in our
1 shoes. Wherever somebody thought of that, they could
2 put something away.
3 Q. So they did not take all or valuables, just all the
4 valuables that they could find, right?
5 A. I thought I would succeed to keep this ring. It was a
6 present from my late mother and my bracelet; but I gave
7 that up too in tunnel number nine.
8 Q. Okay, now let us go on a little further in your
9 testimony on direct. When you got to Celebici you were
10 unloaded off the trucks, right?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Then you were lined up against a wall, was that before
13 or after you were taken to the command building to be
14 registered in into the camp?
15 A. I think it was after we were unloaded, as far as I can
17 Q. You mean after you were unloaded you were taken to the
18 command building to be registered into the camp or after
19 you were unloaded you were beaten and then taken into
20 the command building to be registered into the camp.
21 Which was it, sir?
22 A. It is difficult to remember all the details and all the
23 facts with precision, because one has to bear in mind
24 all the things that we went through before we got to
25 Celebici, so that it was impossible to register and
1 remember every single detail. It really is difficult,
2 particularly now to recall every single detail.
3 Q. I understand that it is hard to recall detail several
4 years later. After this beating by people, you do not
5 know who they were, that is what you testified to under
6 direct, you do not know who beat you up when you got
8 A. At first I did not know.
9 Q. That beating was about three or four hours long. Then
10 at some point you were put into tunnel nine; right?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. You remained in tunnel nine for what, 110 or 120 days,
13 which was if?
14 A. About 110. Again, I am not quite sure whether it was
15 110 or 105, but something like that.
16 Q. Okay, somewhere over 100 days?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. You got there May 30th, June 1st, thereabouts?
19 A. Yes, thereabouts.
20 Q. In fact it could be either May 30th or June 1st, would
21 it not?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. There were no other prisoners in the tunnel when you
24 were put into it; right?
25 A. When we entered the tunnel was empty there were other
1 prisoners who had been captured and brought to the camp,
2 whether they had been in number nine before, I do not
3 know, but it was empty when I entered the tunnel.
4 There was no one there.
5 Q. Okay. Eventually there were about 40 people in that
6 tunnel; is that right?
7 A. As far as I can remember, yes, maybe a little more or a
8 little less, but that is roughly the number. I cannot
9 give you the exact number.
10 Q. Okay. You were only fed ever third day while you were
11 in the tunnel, is that not right? Is that what you said
12 in direct?
13 A. Yes, yes, we would get a slice of bread every third day,
14 a slice of bread.
15 Q. Not any more than that?
16 A. No.
17 Q. If you take a look at your statement -- you can look at
18 the Bosnian version -- I am going to read something and
19 see if that is what you what your statement says. The
20 paragraph starts off:
21 "Because the tunnel was not long enough we did to
22 sleep diagonally."
23 See if you can find that in your statement, that
25 A. It is not necessary, I do not have to look for it. I
1 remember that.
2 Q. Did you say in that written statement:
3 "In the beginning, we received only a very small
4 piece of bread and half a cup of water once a day"?
5 A. I may have said that, but the truth is we got a slice of
6 bread every third day.
7 Q. What you put in your statement to the office of the
8 prosecutor, it was not the truth, is that what you are
10 A. Maybe I was wrong; I made a mistake. I cannot recall
11 now. Maybe I was not concentrating enough at the time
12 I was making this statement. I already said that I was
13 in a hurry. Maybe I made some omissions as a result of
15 Q. Okay. One thing I do need to clear up: . there was a
16 guard named Osman Dedic, right?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. He is different from Hazim Delic, right?
19 A. Osman Dedic.
20 Q. Yes. He and Hazim Delic are two different people;
22 A. Yes, yes.
23 Q. Now in your direct examination you testified -- I am
24 looking for it in my notes -- that you were beaten three
25 or four times personally. Do you remember testifying
1 to that?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. You also testified that every time you went out to use
4 the latrine you were lined up against the wall and
5 beaten with a baseball bat; do you remember testifying
6 to that?
7 A. Yes, yes, that is what I said, but we did not understand
8 one another well. That was when I was beaten on my own
9 as an individual, but we went to the latrine in a
10 group. So I was singling out the occasions when I was
11 singled out to be beaten. But when I was beaten as a
12 member of a group, that happened almost daily.
13 Q. Okay. Let us talk about these baseball bat beatings
14 for a minute; okay? When you say Mr. Delic hit you with
15 a baseball bat, he, what, hit you across the back, did
16 he not?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. He hit you real hard, did he not?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. About how many times would he hit you?
21 A. It depended, sometimes more, sometimes less. I did not
22 count. I could not count.
23 Q. Would it be fair to say he hit you more than 10 times
24 with that baseball bat?
25 A. I cannot recall.
1 Q. Okay.
2 A. Because it depended on the strength of the blow and it
3 depended on pain. So for us one blow could be equal
4 100 sometimes and sometimes less.
5 Q. Well, okay, you told me he was hitting you real hard
6 every time he hit you. Did I misunderstand you on
7 that, sir?
8 A. If he had intended not to hit me hard he probably would
9 not have hit me at all. I am sure he did not want to
10 caress me.
11 Q. So he was hitting you about as hard as he could?
12 A. Whether he could hit harder, I really don't know.
13 Q. He hit you across the kidneys, is that not what you
15 A. Yes, yes.
16 Q. In fact if you were going to be hit with a baseball bat
17 you would be hit across the kidneys with that baseball
18 bat; right?
19 A. It depended on the will of the person hitting you.
20 Q. Okay. So you were not always hit across the kidneys.
21 Do you know where your kidneys are by the way, so that
22 we understand each other?
23 A. I should know, surely.
24 Q. They are in the lower part of your back, one on each
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Below your rib cage; right?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. So that they are not protected by any bones from sharp
5 blows; right?
6 A. As you know yourself.
7 Q. Yes, I just wanted to make sure that we were on the same
8 wave length. If the usher could show you --
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. -- the baseball bat.
11 THE REGISTRAR: D6/3.
12 A. Yes, I can see it; I am familiar with it. You do not
13 need to show it to me.
14 Q. That looks like the baseball bat that was used; right?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. It was used to hit you real hard?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. It was used to --
19 A. Would you please remove it from the table, please?
20 Can I ask for that?
21 Q. Sure, no problem. Sure. That looks like the baseball
22 bat that you say Mr. Delic swung inside the tunnel to hit
23 people with; right?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Did you testify the tunnel was about 1.2 metres wide;
2 A. According to my estimate. I did not measure it.
3 Q. Give or take a little bit, maybe a little more or maybe
4 a little less?
5 A. Yes, roughly. I really do not know exactly how wide it
7 Q. Let us go to the incidents about the manhole. Let us
8 talk about that for a second.
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. That is a pretty memorable experience, is it not?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Not the kind of thing that somebody would forget, is it?
13 A. No.
14 Q. Sir, take the Serbian version of your statement and read
15 out loud the entire way you recounted that to the office
16 of the prosecutor?
17 A. I do not know if I can find it.
18 Q. Sir, I will help you: you will not find it because it
19 is not there. About how big was the bottom of that
20 manhole in square metres?
21 A. It was very small. I know how we felt inside and how
22 much space we had. We know that very well how small it
24 Q. At the time you were all put in that manhole, there
25 were, what, about 40 people in the tunnel?
1 A. I said that I really do not know the exact number, 30 to
2 40 people. I cannot recall that. I have already said
3 that, that I do not know the exact number.
4 Q. Well, you gave a list of 41 names in your statement.
5 Would that be right?
6 A. I did provide a list.
7 Q. There were 41 names on that list, were not there?
8 A. Yes, but people left tunnel number nine before others
9 and some did not go to the manhole at all. A couple of
10 people who were from the same locality as the camp was.
11 Q. Sir, maybe I misunderstood your direct examination --
12 I am going through my notes -- I thought you said that
13 they took a group of about 16 or 17 and that you were in
14 that group, and after that they let you out of the
15 tunnel they took everybody else and put them down in the
17 A. Yes, but as far as I can remember a couple of people did
18 not go to the manhole. I am not sure about that.
19 I think those people who came from the same place as the
20 camp itself, so I am not quite sure about that.
21 Q. Okay, so you are not sure. You were not sure when you
22 testified on direct that after your group was put back
23 in tunnel nine everybody else in tunnel nine got put in
24 the manhole?
25 MR. TURONE: Okay, your Honour. He did not actually say
1 "everybody else" but talked about a second group.
2 MR. MORAN: Your Honours have heard the testimony. I am
3 just going off my memory. Its's in the transcript
4 whatever he said.
5 Q. Slavko Susic, let's talk about his death.
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. And Zara Mrkajic's connection with that death, okay?
8 A. I do not understand. There was no Zara. Zara was not
9 in tunnel number nine. Mrkajic?
10 Q. Zara Mrkajic.
11 A. Yes, Zara was there, yes.
12 Q. Are you familiar with a thing called the Republika
14 A. I am.
15 Q. Tell the judges what Republika Sirpska is?
16 A. A territory under the control of Serbs, the territory
17 that belonged to the Serbs.
18 Q. In fact it has a government, army and a court system;
20 A. Probably. I am not following the news.
21 Q. Well, I am just curious whether or not you knew that
22 Zoran Mrkajic spent eight months in the custody of the
23 Republika Sirpska while they investigated his connection
24 with Mr. Susic's death. I am curious whether you knew
25 Grozda Cecez was one of the main prosecution witnesses
1 against you, did you know that?
2 A. No, I have no idea about that.
3 Q. Okay, that is fine. Let us talk about the Red Cross now
4 for a minute; okay?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. When the Red Cross came on their very first visit to
7 register everybody where you in hangar six or tunnel
9 A. In tunnel number nine.
10 Q. Okay. Let us talk a little bit about your
11 interrogations. On direct examination, frankly it was
12 not clear to me -- and I am not criticising anyone -- it
13 just was not clear to me, you said that there were two
14 people who interrogate you. In the same sentence you
15 said "and who escorted us to the office and stood as
16 security while we were being interrogated." Did you
17 mean there were two people interrogating you and two
18 people who escorted you to and from the office?
19 A. I was thinking of the guards who accompanied us. Of
20 course there were another two interrogating us. I do not
21 know their names. Nor do I know the names of those who
22 escorted us to the Command building.
23 Q. What I am getting at is it is two groups of two people?
24 A. Two people interrogated us and two people brought me to
25 the Command building and they were waiting like security
1 until I made some sort of a statement.
2 Q. Okay. About how long after you were brought to the
3 camp did this interrogation occur - one week, two weeks?
4 A. I cannot remember. I do not remember.
5 Q. You do not recall. Do you recall whether it was a
6 short time or a long time?
7 A. After a short time. I think it was at the beginning.
8 I cannot remember exactly how -- after how many days.
9 That I cannot remember.
10 Q. But it was definitely after June 1st; no question about
11 that, right?
12 A. I think not.
13 Q. If you arrived at the camp about June 1st you were not
14 interrogated the first day you were there, were you?
15 A. I do not remember because I was in a poor condition.
16 Maybe some people were interrogated, maybe I was too,
17 but I do not remember.
18 Q. That is fair enough, you were in a poor condition
19 because of the beating you took at Mount Igman and at
20 the school and on your way to Celebici; right?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Did you have any medical treatment for your injuries?
23 A. No, never.
24 Q. How about after you left the camp?
25 A. Me? I did in Republika Sirpska or, rather, in Serbian,
1 when I left the camp.
2 Q. Do you have copies of those medical records?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. I noticed that you testified on direct that at the time
5 of the Battle of Bradina you were not a member of the
6 Serbian Democratic Party, "but I have since become a
7 member of the Serbian Democratic Party"; is that not
8 what you testified to?
9 A. Yes, yes.
10 Q. You now support the SDS and its leaders?
11 A. Whether I support them or not, that is my own affair.
12 Whether I support anyone, whether I support the SDS at
13 all, that is my personal affair, and my own option,
14 I suppose. I am entitled to that.
15 Q. That is true: where I come from some of us are
16 Democrats and some of us are Republicans and we can
17 pretty much be what we want to be.
18 Let me jump back a second. Do you recall in March
19 1992 there was a plebisite, an election in Bosnia
21 A. I know that there were some kind of elections.
22 Q. I am not going to ask you whether you voted in it or how
23 you voted, if you did vote; the only thing I want to
24 know is, if you wanted to vote, if you had the desire to
25 go vote in that election, could you have done that?
1 A. I do not know. I cannot tell.
2 Q. Well, were you on the Voter Registration Rolls for
4 A. I do not know that either.
5 Q. Were you on the voter registration?
6 A. I was without an ID card for a long time. I was not
7 registered in Bradina even.
8 Q. You were without an ID cards for a long time. When did
9 you lose your ID cards, sir, roughly?
10 A. I lost it some time before the war. I cannot recall
11 exactly how long before.
12 Q. Okay. So because you did not have an ID card you were
13 ineligible to vote, is that it?
14 A. I probably could not have voted without an ID card,
15 without some kind of documents.
16 Q. Just one more thing -- and I may have asked it poorly a
17 little bit earlier, but if I have I apologise -- I just
18 want to make sure we have it clear, then I think we will
19 be pretty much close to done. It is your position
20 based on having been in Bradina prior to the Battle of
21 Bradina that these people, the residents of Bradina --
22 okay -- did not have any kind of military force there,
23 no partisans, no regular army, no militia, no
24 organisation at all. That is what you are testifying
25 to; right?
1 A. Yes, that is what I said. In answer to the gentleman's
2 question I said "No".
3 Q. So there was not anybody there that was a commander or
4 there was not anybody there that was wearing some kind
5 of insignia to show that they were in a military unit,
6 on the Serb side; is that correct?
7 A. Yes, I do not know whether there was a single prisoner
8 who came to the camp in a uniform, except for -- all of
9 them had civilian clothes and sneakers. If that is
10 army, people under arms, I am not familiar that any such
11 case exists in the world.
12 Q. I agree with you wholeheartedly, sir. Are you familiar
13 with a man named Radovan Karadzic?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. What is his relationship to the Serbian Democratic
17 A. I have no idea.
18 Q. I pass the witness, your Honour
19 Cross-examination by Mr. Ackerman.
20 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Mr. Ackerman, you can proceed.
21 MR. ACKERMAN: Thank you very much, your Honour.
22 Mr. Kuljanin, my name is John Ackerman.
23 I represent Mr. Landzo in this Court. How are you this
25 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please, Mr. Ackerman.
1 MR. ACKERMAN: Did you hear what I said?
2 A. Yes, I did.
3 Q. When you first came into this Court this morning to
4 testify you stood and took an oath to tell the truth,
5 did you not?
6 A. Correct.
7 Q. Have you ever done that before anywhere else? Have you
8 ever taken an oath anywhere else to tell the truth?
9 A. Not on occasions like these, no, I have not been in a
10 situation to take an oath to tell the truth. I have
11 not had occasion to be on the witness stand so far.
12 Q. So this is your first experience as a witness being
13 asked questions and giving answers to those questions in
14 this kind of a setting; is that a fair statement?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Now, you do have some experience with being asked
17 questions in a less formal setting about your
18 experiences during the situation that arose in Bosnia in
19 1992, do you not?
20 A. I really did not understand the question.
21 Q. Well, you have been asked questions by a representative
22 of the office of the prosecutor. You have been asked
23 questions by military investigating committees and
24 Celebici and perhaps in Konjic before about the event in
25 Bosnia in 1992, have you not?
1 A. No, I do not remember.
2 Q. I thought we had at least established when Mr. Moran was
3 up here that you now have a memory of being questioned
4 by Mr. Hortemo from the office of the prosecutor?
5 A. You are referring to the International Tribunal, when I
6 gave statements for the Tribunal? Is this what you are
7 referring to?
8 Q. I am referring to every time somebody has sat you down
9 and asked you questions about your experience in Bosnia
10 in 1992. That has happened before, has not it?
11 A. Yes, yes.
12 Q. Now you have had a chance to look at the statement you
13 gave to the office of the prosecutor for this Tribunal
14 in October 1995, have you not?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. When was the last time you saw that?
17 A. I cannot recall, really.
18 Q. You never saw that since you have arrived here at the
19 Hague until Mr. Moran showed it to you?
20 A. No, I did not.
21 Q. No one from the office of the prosecutor --
22 A. I do not remember.
23 Q. -- no one from the office of the prosecutor in talking
24 to you about the testimony you were going to give here
25 today showed you that statement and gave you an
1 opportunity to read it?
2 A. No, they gave me something, but I did not read
3 anything. I was not very interested in those
5 Q. You mean just in the last few days here in The Hague you
6 were given something to read by the prosecutor to read
7 but chose not to because you were not very interested?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Are you interested in being here at all today?
10 A. I am interested in recounting my experiences and what I
11 felt under my own skin. I have not come here to lie
12 nor waste my time before this honourable Court. I
13 should like to thank the honourable Court to give me
14 this opportunity to say what I have to say and to say
15 what I have gone through. I am not interested in
16 statements. I want to tell before the Court what I
17 have gone through and what I have felt in my own skin,
18 the statements that can be read by whoever sees fit and
19 who needs them.
20 Q. In fact when you came into this court the first thing
21 this morning and were sworn, the first thing you said
22 was to the Court "May I begin?" like you were prepared
23 to go ahead and make a statement without any questions
24 being asked of you at all; correct?
25 A. No, no, I did not say that. I actually waited for
1 someone to put a question because I had no idea. I also
2 had some stage fright because standing before this
3 eminent honourable Court I did not feel all that
4 pleasant and I was struck with stage fright as well.
5 I only started talking after questions had been asked of
7 Q. Did you have any idea that Mr. Turone was going to ask
8 you questions today?
9 A. No.
10 Q. You had no conversation prior to coming here with
11 Mr. Turone where he told you that he was going to be
12 asking you questions?
13 A. No.
14 Q. Did you have any conversation with --
15 A. I am not quite sure what gentleman you are referring
16 to. The gentleman who just asked me some questions
18 Q. Yes, the one right there who keeps raising his hand.
19 If you look over, he will raise his hand so that you can
20 see. That gentleman.
21 A. Oh, yes, yes.
22 Q. Yes. What --
23 A. Well, he talked to me about how I should behave, that I
24 should tell the truth and so on.
25 Q. Is he the one that gave you your statement to look at
1 that you decided not to look at?
2 A. No, he gave me some papers, but I chose not to look at
3 any papers because I really know what my own experience
4 is which I came to tell the honourable Court about.
5 Q. Did you know what your experiences had been in October
6 1995 when you talked to Mr. Hortemo or were you having a
7 blackout of some kind that day?
8 A. I probably could not remember some things then, and
9 subsequently I supplemented some of the things I said
10 because I had forgotten them before.
11 Q. So your memory is better now than it was a couple of
12 years ago?
13 A. It is not a question of that. As far as the camp
14 itself is concerned, I could write novels. One could
15 write novels about it and just say something within a
16 limited space of time because one remembers things that
17 one has forgotten before and did not recall at a certain
18 point of time.
19 Q. Well, Mr. Moran just asked you a question about your
20 interrogation when you got to Celebici and you told the
21 Court that it is very difficult to remember the details
22 of what happened because it is so long ago. Now, you
23 are telling us you have no problem remembering all the
24 details because it is so clear in your mind. Which one
25 of those is it?
1 A. Of course I cannot remember all the details. I did not
2 tell the gentleman all the details. I cannot, it is
3 impossible for one to recall all the details because
4 there were so many things.
5 Q. If you had had an opportunity while you were in Celebici
6 camp to keep a diary of those experiences, that could be
7 real helpful to you today to help refresh your memory to
8 be more accurate, would it not?
9 A. Yes, it would. I have no opportunity to think about my
10 own life. I only waited for the day that I would
11 leave, so I had no opportunity nor the time to think
12 about keeping any records. I had no sense of the
13 time. I did not know what day it was, what month it
14 was, let alone keep any records. It was impossible.
15 Q. Please understand, I am not suggesting that you should
16 have kept a diary. The other thing I would like to ask
17 is that you listen carefully to my questions - you tend
18 to make little speeches at the end of my questions. If
19 my question is not real clear to you, let me know and I
20 will try to make it more clear. But if you will do
21 that, we will get out of here a lot quicker today; okay?
22 A. How should I know how exactly to answer? . I answer
23 the way exactly I think I should answer.
24 Q. That is okay so long as your answer has something to do
25 with the question that I asked; okay?
1 A. Okay.
2 Q. Now having told us that if you had kept a diary while at
3 Celebici it would have been helpful in terms of
4 refreshing your memory about what happened there; I take
5 it the same would be true if you had made statements
6 about the time you were in Celebici or thereafter. It
7 would certainly be helpful to review those just to see
8 if there was something there that you might not remember
9 today that you would like to tell this Tribunal about?
10 A. I have already said that I maintain no lists, no records
11 of any kind. I do not know. I do not understand.
12 Q. The officers of the prosecutor made a record of your
13 account of what happened to you there. That record was
14 made in October 1995 in the form of a statement that you
15 gave to the office of the prosecutor. Now you know
16 that is true, do you not?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. That statement was made over a period of two days. It
19 was made during the 20th and 21st October 1995; are you
20 aware of that?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. You understood that that statement was being taken by a
23 representative of this Tribunal of the office of the
24 prosecutor of this Tribunal and that that was an
25 important matter, did you not?
1 A. I have no idea how important it is.
2 Q. Well, I guess you think it is important enough that you
3 are here today?
4 A. What is important is for me to tell this honourable
5 Court about the things that I have gone through.
6 Q. And in October 1995 it was important for you to tell a
7 representative of the office of the prosecutor and this
8 honourable Court what you had gone through; correct?
9 A. Yes, but not as much as here today, because I was in a
10 dilemma whether to appear before the Tribunal or not.
11 Q. So I guess you told Mr. Hortemo that there were a lot of
12 things that you just were not going to tell him on those
13 two days, that you spoke with limit because you were
14 having this dilemma. Did you tell him that?
15 A. I did. I said that I would only be making a brief
16 statement because at that time I did not believe that I
17 would be appearing before the Tribunal. So I just gave
18 him a brief description of what did happen.
19 Q. So over a period of two days you gave him a brief
21 A. The time was limited by me. My time was limited.
22 I only had so much time that I could allot to that.
23 Q. You met with him on two different days, on 20th and 21st
24 October; did not you?
25 A. Yes, we met on those two days.
1 Q. Do you think Mr. Hortemo would agree with you that you
2 were only going to give him part of the story?
3 A. I did not say to him that I would give him a part of the
4 story. I only said that my time was limited and that I
5 did not have enough time because I had some business to
6 attend to and I gave him the statement which I did. If
7 I did give a statement, it does not mean that I said
8 everything, that it is exhaustive.
9 Q. So you did not did not tell Mr. Hortemo, as, you
10 indicated earlier, that you were only going to tell him
11 part of the story. Is that your testimony now?
12 A. No, I did not say that.
13 Q. Did you tell him that you were going to tell him
14 everything that you could remember?
15 A. I said that I would tell him everything that I could
16 remember then. At the moment in question that is what
17 I gave him a statement of the thing that I could
18 remember at the moment in question. As I was not
19 concentrating enough, I was not ready, really ready to
20 make a statement, I said what I said.
21 Q. He told you that it was real important that you tell him
22 everything you could remember, did he not?
23 A. Yes, he did. He told me so.
24 Q. He told you at that time that he was there to take your
25 statement because Mr. Delalic and Mr. Delic and Mr. Landzo
1 and Mr. Mucic had been indicted by this Tribunal and he
2 wanted to know if you had any information about any of
3 those people as a result of your experience. He told
4 you that, did he not?
5 A. Yes, he did.
6 Q. Now a few moments ago when Mr. Turone, the prosecutor,
7 who asked you questions, was questioning you, he asked
8 you if you had any opportunity to learn Mr. Landzo's
9 first name or nickname and you told him, "No" that you
10 did not have that opportunity. Is that not what you
12 A. I said that I knew him by his nickname and that I knew
13 his surname. For his name I was not really
14 interested. If I had wanted to know I would have found
15 out in the camp itself.
16 Q. Well, you told --
17 A. As far as his first name is concerned.
18 Q. You told Mr. Hortemo when you talked to him that his name
19 was Senad Landzo. That the person who tortured you was
20 Senad Landzo?
21 A. I said that I thought the first name was Senad. I was
22 not sure. I was sure about his surname and his
23 nickname. I wasn't sure about his first name and that
24 is exactly what I said.
25 Q. Why do you think Mr. Hortemo failed to record you
1 'thought' that was his name and just put it down as you
2 'said' that was his name. Why would he have done
4 A. I really have no idea. I do not know, maybe that is
5 his name.
6 Q. Why, when you had a chance to review this statement and
7 it was read to you, why did you not say.
8 'Wait a minute, I am not sure that is the name'?
9 A. It just did not occur to me. I was not interested very
10 much in that person, whether the name is this or that.
11 I know who they are and what they are, and as far as
12 I am concerned that is sufficient.
13 Q. So your position here today is that, as far as you know,
14 the person named Landzo who did the things that you have
15 described was a person named Senad Landzo; correct?
16 A. I repeat, I am not sure about the name, the first
17 name. I am sure about the surname and his face and his
18 physical appearance, that I am sure of. As far as the
19 first, I am not sure whether it is this or that. I am
20 quite sure about his physical appearance, his surname
21 and his nickname.
22 Q. A few moments ago when I was asking you about the
23 statement that you gave to the office of the prosecutor,
24 Mr. Hortemo, you responded in a way to make that plural,
25 like you had given more than one statement to the office
1 of the prosecutor. Have you given them more than one
3 A. I don't -- I cannot recall. I have no idea.
4 Q. You do not remember whether you met with a
5 representative of the office of the prosecutor other
6 than on 20th and 21st October?
7 A. It seems to me that some people did come after that date
8 also, but I was not really interested. I do not know.
9 Q. Do you remember giving any other statements to anyone
10 regarding the event in and around Bradina in 1992?
11 A. I do not remember.
12 Q. You certainly remember giving a statement to the
13 military investigating committee at Celebici when you
14 were taken into the Command centre there. You have
15 described that and you gave a statement there, did you
17 A. I did. I gave some statements, as I have already said.
18 Q. And that statement was given on June 8th 1992, the one
19 at Celebici, was it not?
20 A. It might have been.
21 Q. And in that statement you told the members of that
22 Committee that you had been a member of the SDS since
23 the SDS was formed, did you not?
24 A. That is what is written there. Whether I said it is a
25 question, I know for a fact I did not say that I was a
1 member of the SDS. I said that I was not. The fact is
2 that I was not a member and they wrote that I was. He
3 cursed my Chetnik mother and he said we were all the
4 same and that we were all members. I do not know what
5 else they wrote there, but this is the way it was.
6 Q. You told that Committee that you knew there was four
7 mortars located in the village of Bradina. One mortar
8 of 82 millimetres was placed in the village of
9 Barakusa. Damjan Gligorevic was an aiming gunner, while
10 Goran Gligorevic was his assistant. The other mortar of
11 82 millimetres was placed at the Bara place above the
12 house of Mrkajics and was operated by Zoran Kuljanin as
13 an aiming gunner and Zeljko Makajic as his assistant the
14 anti-aircraft mortar was placed at the Podgaj place
15 above the house of Mrkajics, and I know that Zdravko
16 Dordic, Zoran Dordic and Dragan Dordic were responsible
17 for it. The radio station PCR-320 was placed next to the
18 meteorological station at Bradina. , you told them all
19 that, did you not?
20 A. Its people who are referred to in here, there, are
21 people I do not even know. I never said these things
22 nor did I see any of those things.
23 Q. How do you know what is in this statement, this
24 statement of June 8th, 1992? How do you know what it
1 A. You just read out parts of it to me.
2 Q. I started reading out the part about you being a member
3 of the SDS party. You said:
4 "They put that in there, but I did not say that."
5 How do you know they said that?
6 A. Sorry?
7 Q. How do you know they put in there, that you were a
8 member of the SDS party? You just told us they put it
9 in there and it was not true; how do you know that?
10 A. I know they asked me about it and I know what they put
11 in after they asked me. They probably put it in there
12 which does not mean anything to me.
13 Q. During the round-up in Bradina, you were a squadron
14 commander, were you not?
15 A. Me? No. No, I was not.
16 Q. In your squad were people named Relja Gligorevic, Stevan
17 Kuljanin, Nedo Kuljanin, Slavko Miljanic, Jelenko
18 Kuljanin, Mitar Kuljanin, Milan Draganic. Those were
19 the men in your squad, were they not?
20 A. No. I do not know two of the people you enumerated.
21 I do not know them at all. I was not a squadron
22 commander nor was I in charge of any people, of any men.
23 Q. After you left Bradina trying to escape in a canyon up
24 near Ljuta, you ran into a member of the territorial
25 defence and captured him, did you not?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Disarm him?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. And later you captured an additional two members of the
5 territorial defence and disarmed both of them; correct?
6 A. I was not in this group which disarmed the next two men
7 because we had parted and this man who was armed with
8 this rifle went with us escorting us to show us the way
9 towards Serb controlled territory. I was not in that
10 other group, and the other group captured the other two
11 people that you are referring to.
12 Q. Were you in the group at that that Zara Mrkajic talked
13 into surrendering because you were surounded?
14 A. Zara Mrkajic remained behind my group and he came to the
15 village. He was not with me when we were captured. He
16 was not there at all. He stayed behind and he went to
17 the village and he was captured in Ljuta and disarmed,
19 Q. Do you know a gentleman by the name of Vukasin Mrkajic?
20 A. I do.
21 Q. That is the person who was responsible forearming the
22 citizens of Bradina, was it not?
23 A. I really have know idea what his function was and what
24 he had. I really do not know.
25 Q. Did he not at one point give you an anti-aircraft gun
1 and 80 bullets?
2 A. No, not to me.
3 Q. Then later did you not exchange that with Mr. Dragan
4 Vujicic for a 762 millimetres weapon?
5 A. To make things clear I never exchanged anything of the
6 kind, nor did I get any kind of armaments from Vukasin
8 Q. So if you said all that in a statement that you signed,
9 those things were not true?
10 A. First of all, there is another Milenko in Bradina and he
11 has the same surname. Perhaps some things might have
12 been confused, because of that he has the same surname
13 and the same name, possibly another man is involved.
14 Q. Is your father Stevan?
15 A. Yes, he is.
16 Q. Is your mother Bosiljka?
17 A. Yes, she was Bosiljka.
18 Q. So if this statement refers to a Milenko Kuljanin, son
19 of Stevan and Bosiljka Kuljanin, that would be you,
20 would it not?
21 A. You have proper information but can I ask you a
22 question, sir?
23 Q. Go ahead. I'll let you do that.
24 A. You have the data, particulars of my parents, can I ask
25 you whether you have any details about who killed my
1 mother in the village of Bradina, whether you have it in
2 any of your documents which are so extensive and so
3 full? Perhaps it is written who killed my mother in one
4 of those.
5 Q. I don't, but you might ask Mr. Turone that. The
6 prosecutors have a lot more documents than we do.
7 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: We will now see the dangers of getting
8 into the dialogue.
9 MR. ACKERMAN: I was trying to be a good guy and let him ask
10 me a question, and that was a mistake.
11 A. I apologise.
12 Q. That is all right. That was my fault. I would like
13 to ask the usher to just show you the statement that I
14 have been referring to and maybe get it marked and just
15 have you let me know if that is your signature that is
16 on that statement. (Handed)
17 A. Yes, it is.
18 Q. Okay. Your Honour, I am getting ready to go into a
19 second statement now, do you want to take the break now?
20 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Yes, we will come back at 4.30. The
21 Trial Chamber will resume at 4.30.
22 (Short adjournment).
23 (4.30 pm)
24 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Yes, you may proceed.
25 MR. ACKERMAN: Thank you very much your Honour.
1 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Remind him he is still on his oath.
2 THE REGISTRAR: Mr. Kuljanin, may I remind you that you are
3 still under oath?
4 A. Yes.
5 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honour, with the assistance of the
6 usher, I will ask that another statement be shown to
7 this witness and see if he can identify this one.
8 MR. TURONE: May I ask to see this second statement?
9 MR. ACKERMAN: It is my understanding that both of these
10 were furnished to the office of the prosecutor months
11 ago. Of course I was not here months ago.
12 MR. TURONE: No, there was not given to the prosecution, so
13 we would like please to serve it in English translation,
14 too, please, if it is possible up.
15 MR. ACKERMAN: Let me give this to Mr. Turone (Handed). Mr.
16 Kuljanin, you have been handed a statement in
17 Serbo-Croatian, I believe. I would like the registry
18 to tell us how it is marked.
19 THE REGISTRAR: Registrar D16/4.
20 MR. ACKERMAN: D16/4, do you recognise that document?
21 A. I do.
22 Q. That is your signature that appears at the end of that;
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. That is a statement that you gave to the Military
1 Investigating Commission of the Fourth Corps on January
2 11th, 1993; is it not?
3 A. That was when I just went there to sign a document. I
4 was not aware of what kind of statement was at stake.
5 Q. Well, if you look at the last sentence in that
6 statement, it says:
7 "I gave the statement voluntarily and I accept
8 and sign it as such."
9 Is that not what it says there?
10 A. I already said that we went there just to sign the
11 statement and I only now see what it is that I signed.
12 Q. Well, your signature to that statement, among other
13 things, was an agreement that you accepted it and signed
14 it voluntarily. Then it was witnessed by five people,
15 was it not?
16 A. The truth is that I just signed it. I do not know how
17 many witnesses there were, nor whether there were any
18 witnesses. I put that signature in SUP in Musala. It
19 was not just me. There were several of us and I now
20 see what I have signed.
21 Q. Is this the first time you have seen it since the day
22 that you signed it?
23 A. It is the first time I see this statement.
24 Q. There are a number of things in it that you would
25 concede are absolutely true are not there?
1 A. I did not see it, so I do not know what it says. I do
2 not know what part of it I can confirm and what not.
3 Q. Well, you can certainly confirm that during your
4 attempted escape from Bradina you came across a
5 TO member armed with a rifle. You disarmed him and he
6 agreed to show you the way to Kalinovik. You would
7 agree with that, would you not?
8 A. No, he happened to come across us. He suddenly found
9 himself amidst us and he did not really have time to use
10 his rifle. So, it was just carelessness. We had no
11 problems with him, nor did he have any problems with
12 us. We just asked the boy to lead us to the way to
14 Q. But you wound up disarming him? You took his weapon.
15 Somebody in your group took his weapon?
16 A. Yes, somebody did take his rifle from him.
17 Q. And he failed to survive that experience also, did he
19 A. What do you mean, he did not survive.
20 Q. He was killed, was he not?
21 A. No, no, that is not true that he was killed.
22 Q. Is it not also true that, during your escape, this guard
23 that you kidnapped and used in the escape that you told
24 us in a very humanitarian way that you let go and let go
25 home was also killed, not let go home, by you guys, did
1 not you guys kill him too?
2 A. That is not true. That is not correct. There is
3 evidence. There are doctors who established the cause
4 of his death and the place of his death, and as for us
5 we treated him in a very humanitarian manner, if we are
6 talking about the guards when we escaped from the camp.
7 Q. Did you kill anyone else during the process of that
9 A. No, my group, the group I was in at Ljuta did not. As
10 for the other group that split from us, I am not sure.
11 I was not there, so I cannot say. They may have. I
12 cannot confirm that.
13 Q. There is no question about whether that guard that was
14 with you during your escape wound up dead. You agree
15 with that; correct?
16 A. That is what I heard. They found him, a commission
17 came on the spot. The doctors came. They established
18 the cause of death. He was not killed. He was not
19 tortured. We treated him like human beings and he
20 treated us correctly.
21 Q. Now in this statement you say that Rajko Djordjic came
22 to Bradina in March 1992 and took command of the
23 village; correct?
24 A. I have no idea about Rajko Djordjic, nor do I know the
25 man well. I just know him by sight. He was working in
1 Konjic. I was in Bradina, so that I do not know much
2 about Rajko or when he came from Konjic. I just knew
3 through a relative of his that he was working in a
4 company in Konjic. I do not even know which. So
5 I cannot say much about him.
6 Q. Mr. Kuljanin, I am not asking you that question. That
7 was an interesting answer, but I want you to look at the
8 statement. You have got it there, please look at it.
9 My question is, does it not say there that in March 1992
10 Rajko Djordjic came to Bradina and immediately took
11 command in the village, yes or no, does it say that?
12 A. It does, as you say, but I already said that I signed a
13 document without knowing what was in it.
14 Q. I understand that you want to sit here and deny the
15 truth of the things that are in the statement that you
16 signed, but I am going to insist on asking you the
17 questions as to what is in that statement and insist you
18 tell me whether it is there or not. Can you tell me?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Okay. That statement also says there were four mortars
21 located in Bradina, does it not?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. That statement also said that there was a radio
24 transmitter RC-320 near the meteorological station, does
25 it not?
1 A. Whatever you ... I do not know.
2 Q. It is in front of you. Please look at it.
3 A. I have already said that I signed a document without
4 knowing what was in it. I can read the document and
5 then tell you what it says, but whatever it says there,
6 I really do not know Rajko Djordjic nor do I remember
7 any radio station nor what position Rajko Djordjic had.
8 Q. It says in the statement, does it not, that you were a
9 squad leader and names the people what were in your
10 squad, does it not?
11 A. I heard that from the defence and I have already said
12 that I was not a squad leader and that I do not even
13 know some of the names that you read out, that are
14 mentioned in this list and whose commanders I allegedly
16 Q. Do you understand that I am just asking you what the
17 statement says. I am only asking, does it not say that
18 in the statement? . I wanted to confirm that is what
19 it says in the statement. Now the answer to that
20 question must be yes, that it says that you were a squad
21 leader and names some people. That is true. It says
22 that in the statement, does it not?
23 A. Yes, it says that in the statement, but I was not a
24 leader of those men, nor do I know some of the names or
25 some of the people whose names are on that list.
1 Q. Now, I want to go back for a moment to the statement
2 that you gave to Mr. Hortemo of the office of the
3 prosecutor in October 1995. If for some reason today
4 you decided you wanted to deny the contents of that
5 statement, you could simply say to this Tribunal 'I did
6 not get a chance to read it. I have no idea what the
7 in it.' You could say that about this statement too,
8 could not you?
9 A. No, no. I can only say what I know. I cannot say I
10 was a commander and that I led some people that I did
11 not lead and some of which I did not even know. How
12 can I confirm that? How can I say that?
13 Q. According to this piece of paper that you have there in
14 front of you, that is what you told five members of the
15 Military Investigating Commission on January 11th
16 1993. That is what this paper indicates, does it not?
17 A. Yes, yes, that is what it says in the paper, but the
18 circumstances were such that one had to sign whatever
19 was put on the table. You just had to sign it. It was
20 not a normal prison. It was not a normal
21 investigation. It was a camp, a concentration camp in
22 which people were tortured and killed. When one
23 brother hit another brother and did all kind of other
24 things that I would rather not talk about.
25 Q. But on January 11th, 1993, you were not at Celebici, you
1 had already left there; right?
2 A. Yes, but I was in the Musala camp. It was not a hotel;
3 that too was a camp.
4 Q. So the position you want to take here today is that in
5 both of these statements that I have shown you, the one
6 from Celebici camp, the one from Musala, that the things
7 you said there were not true, largely?
8 A. I did not make this such statements, especially for this
9 latter one. I do not remember stating anything. I
10 just know we went to the military command in SUP to sign
11 some documents and at certain point we were even told we
12 were signing discharge papers and that we would be
14 Q. Either of these statements, at least on the face of
15 them, indicated that you signed them voluntarily and
16 that you -- that they were true to the best of your
17 knowledge. Both of those statements that we have been
18 talking about here for the last few minutes, say that do
19 you they not?
20 A. I was not in a position to quarrel with them or to have
21 a fight with them. Of course it had to be voluntary.
22 How else do you think?
23 Q. The same is true of the statement that you gave to the
24 office of the prosecutor. You signed a statement at the
25 end of that acknowledging that it was voluntary and true
1 to the best of your knowledge?
2 A. You are talking about the prosecution of the Tribunal.
3 Q. Yes?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. And for this --
6 A. Something different.
7 Q. And for this Tribunal to try to figure out which of
8 these statements you were telling the truth in, the only
9 thing we have is your word saying 'I did not mean that
10 one but I meant that one'; correct?
11 MR. TURONE: Objection, your Honour. Asked and answered
12 several times by the witness. He explained how come he
13 had to sign the two statements in 1992 and 1993. He
14 explained something quite different about the statement
15 given to the office of the prosecution.
16 MR. ACKERMAN: Well, your Honour, I can just respond to that
17 that just before we left here for a fortnight break, the
18 prosecutor put on a witness from the Commission saying
19 that these people were not forced to make statements.
20 The statements were given absolutely voluntarily and so
21 there is a conflict between the witness they put on two
22 weeks ago and this one, apparently as to whether these
23 statement are voluntary or not. I will leave that up
24 to the Court do wrestle with.
25 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Thank you very much. I would say the
1 same thing, because if we are equating it to the
2 Commission, the Commission and the prosecutors, the
3 investigating officers might think otherwise.
4 MR. ACKERMAN: I want to go to something else now.
5 MR. TURONE: Your Honour, may I ask, please, that the two
6 statements of 1992 and 1993 be admitted in evidence
7 because the fact that they are in many parts almost
8 identical, even in the wording, supports the witness's
9 testimony of today that the statement were written by
10 others and only signed by him.
11 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honour, I totally agree with that. I
12 want them admitted and I was going to do that later on
13 in this process. I do not think we have an English
14 version of that marked yet, and that probably should be
15 done, but the two Serbo-Croatian versions I know are
17 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: : The application appears to
18 be unanimous, the defence and the prosecution.
19 MR. ACKERMAN: Now, the part of that that I don't accept is
20 Mr. Turone's testimony that he made in terms of his
21 offer. That is for the Court to decide and not for him
22 to give testimony about. Here is an English version of
23 that one and they are admitted, I guess, is that
24 correct, your Honour?
25 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Well, they are.
1 THE REGISTRAR: The first statement will be D 15/4 and
2 D16/4. I would need a translation of the first
4 JUDGE JAN: Can I have the statement?
5 MR. ACKERMAN: That is the one I just handed you. Here are
6 three more that we can give to the judges. This is the
7 first one. You should have already the translation of
8 the second one, do you not, or did we just give that to
9 the prosecution?
10 THE REGISTRAR: You just gave it to the prosecution.
11 MR. ACKERMAN: I have one marked up. Here we go. All
12 right. Are you familiar with a gentleman by the name
13 of Desimir Mrkajic?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Mr. Mrkajic was in that group of you who escaped from
16 Bradina in May 1992 during the attack on Bradina;
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Is Bradina a very, very big city?
20 A. It is not a city; it's a village, a rather large
22 Q. Is it a village that is so large that people on one side
23 of town have no idea what is going on on the other side
24 of town?
25 A. Yes, because it is scattered; it is a large village.
1 Q. So someone who was there could say that everybody in
2 Bradina was armed and defended the city and somebody
3 else there could say nobody there was armed and we did
4 not defend the city, and those would not be inconsistent
5 statements, because it is so big; is that true?
6 A. I apologise. I did not understand you at all.
7 I thought you were not asking me anything.
8 Q. I am asking you this. One of the dilemmas that I have
9 is between the testimony you gave here today, for
10 instance, that to your knowledge nobody in Bradina was
11 armed, and other witnesses that we have heard here from
12 Bradina who said basically everybody there was armed.
13 I am just curious as to how two different people could
14 have two different views of that?
15 A. But how is it possible for somebody who lived in
16 Bradina, and there were no Muslims, it was virtually a
17 pure Serb village, to force somebody to tell newspaper
18 reporters that he had raped Muslim women and tortured
19 Muslim children? Why is that possible? It is not
20 possible at the same time for somebody to say that there
21 were military formation. There were tanks. There were
22 planes, and who knows what else and besides which they
23 beat us and killed us.
24 Q. I am not talking about that; I am talking about someone
25 who was a Serbian resident of Bradina who has been here
1 as a witness, someone who you probably know. What I do
2 not understand is how --
3 A. I am not interested what other people said. I am not
4 interested in other people's statements. I came here
5 to make a statement of my own and to tell the honourable
6 Court the truth, to tell them what I know and what I
7 lived through and what some other people said. To whom
8 they said it, when they said it, I am simply not
10 Q. Do you think Desimir Mrkajic "who I know" would make a
11 false statement in Bradina at that time?
12 A. I really do not know what his character is. I do not
13 know what he would say and what he would say about other
14 people and to whom he would say it. I really do not
16 Q. If someone were to describe you as a "defender from
17 Bradina", you would quarrel with that description, would
18 you not? You would say that was not true.
19 A. Whoever knows me can describe me and why could not he
20 describe me? It is not impossible.
21 Q. If someone said you were a defender of Bradina in the
22 context of a military operation, that would not be true,
23 would it?
24 A. Let me tell you something, I was not in a position to
25 defend the village, my house, Bradina. If there were
1 military formations, if we had weapons and if we had the
2 strength, we certainly would have defended it and
3 succeeded in defending it. I do not know what you
4 expect me to say. Am I here put on trial? Am I being
5 accused for being at home, for being captured for having
6 spent time in the camp. I simply do not understand
8 Q. What is being done is you are being asked questions on
9 cross-examination. I am not accusing you of anything,
10 do you understand that?
11 A. No. That is how I feel.
12 Q. My job is to ask you questions and your job is to answer
13 them. I am not accusing you of anything. I am trying
14 to find out what you are going to say when I ask these
15 questions. That is what cross-examination is.
16 A. I am doing my best to answer the gentleman as clearly as
17 possible and with as many details so as to make myself
18 clear. Maybe I am not literate enough to explain things
19 as I would like them to be explained.
20 Q. I think you are doing fine, okay.
21 I want to go to Celebici now, and I want to take
22 you to the time that you were confined in tunnel nine
23 during that first 110 days, okay?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Now, the first thing I want to ask you about is the way
1 you were seated there in tunnel nine. It is true, is
2 it not, that the person seated right close to the door,
3 the first position in the tunnel was Desimir Mrkajic?
4 A. As far as I can remember, yes.
5 Q. Then as you come further into the tunnel there is he
6 will bother Mrkajic, Brane Mrkajic, Ratko Kuljanin,
7 Momir Mrkajic Nikola Mrkajic and then you. You were
8 number 7, right?
9 A. I think so.
10 Q. And then number eight was Andelko Kuljanin, then number
11 nine, further into the tunnel, was a person named Sreten
12 Zelenovic; correct?
13 A. I think so.
14 Q. Now anything that happened near or right outside that
15 front door, I think you would agree with me that the
16 person who had the best opportunity to observe what was
17 happening would have been Desimir Mrkajic, since he was
18 sitting right at the front door. Do you agree with
20 A. I do. I agree.
21 Q. You have described for this Court a beating of Slavko
22 Susic just outside that door; correct?
23 A. Yes, when he was tortured by Zenga in front of the door.
24 Q. Your claim to this Court is that one of the persons who
25 was beating him was Zenga, Senad Landzo; correct?
1 A. Yes, that is what I said and I am repeating it now, one
2 of them.
3 Q. Yes, one of them. There was also Osman Dedic, Focak,
4 Nervin Zilic; right?
5 A. I did not mention Osman Dedic and the other man in the
6 context of Susic, I only mentioned Landzo and Delic
7 because I saw that it was them who tortured him. These
8 other people may have tortured him in front of the
9 Command building, but I did not see that. I am talking
10 about people I saw torturing him.
11 Q. You deny then that you told Mr. Hortemo in the statement
12 that you gave Mr. Hortemo that:
13 "I watched Azim Delic; Senad Landzo, nicknamed
14 'Zenga'; Osman Dedic; someone called Focak and Nervin
15 Zilic beat him."
16 Are you saying you did not tell that to
17 Mr. Hortemo?
18 A. As far as I remember, I did not say that about Dedic and
19 the other people that you listed. I did say about
20 Osman when I was being beaten that he was there, and as
21 regards Susic, I only mentioned Delic and Landzo.
22 Q. So this is another one of those statements that you want
23 to say in spite of your signature on it that what you
24 said in that statement was also not true?
25 A. No, I really do not recall having stated that. Perhaps
1 I did, perhaps I did something else in mind, but
2 I really cannot say that they participated in it because
3 they did not.
4 Q. Of course it is your contention before this Tribunal
5 that when that beating of Slavko Susic was going on
6 outside the door of tunnel number nine, the door was
7 open so that you could see what was happening, that is
8 your position, is it not?
9 A. Yes. Yes.
10 Q. Do you have any idea why it would be that your
11 acquaintance Desimir Mrkajic would say that the door was
12 closed and that he could only hear what was going on
14 A. That is not true. I do not know what he stated and
15 when he stated what he had state. I really have no
16 idea, but I know full well and I saw it with my own eyes
17 because the door was open, that Landzo was torturing
18 him. I saw Landzo torture him in front of the door and
19 I saw what he was doing to him. It was not only me.
20 There was other prisoners who saw this with their own
21 eyes. If only Desimir Mrkajic is to be believed, that
22 is not that.
23 Q. Okay, is that all you want to say about that? I take it
24 your position is --
25 A. I said everything regarding Susic, everything that I had
1 seen and everything that I lived through.
2 Q. Is your position that if Desimir Mrkajic was to have
3 told someone that, that he is wrong; correct?
4 A. There was some other people there apart from Desimir
5 Mrkajic who saw what happened and other people should be
6 asked what happened.
7 Q. That was not my question. The question was if Desimir
8 Mrkajic told that, that would be wrong, that would be
9 your position, would it not?
10 A. Yes, absolutely.
11 Q. I would like the usher to show you a photograph now.
12 This is a photograph from I think Prosecution Exhibit
13 1. I believe it is photograph number 50. It is this
14 one right in the very back of the book (indicating).
15 I think during direct examination you described that
16 photograph as showing a pole that you were tied to
17 during a time you were beaten by various persons.
18 Could you show us again which of those poles it was you
19 claimed to have been tied to. Point to it, not on the
20 screen but on the ELMO, please.
21 A. Just let me say this, then I will show you. I do not
22 have a sufficiently clear photograph as regards the
23 poles themselves. They are original and that is the
24 kind of poles that I was tied to. I believe that they
25 are quite near tunnel number nine, quite near the
1 tunnel. The photograph is not quite clear, but I
2 believe that these are the poles in front of tunnel
3 number nine, right adjacent to it in fact.
4 Q. Look at the photograph sitting on the ELMO. Turn round
5 and look at it directly. It is a much clearer
6 photograph and it may help if you see it over there.
7 Do not look on the screen, look at the actual
9 A. As regards the poles, they are familiar and the image is
10 clear. They are those poles and I believe that they
11 are right next to the tunnel, right on the tunnel.
12 Q. Were you tied to more than one of those poles by your
13 statement, or not?
14 A. I was tied to one of them, as I only have two hands.
15 Q. Can you tell us which one?
16 A. I cannot tell you exactly which one. One of these two
17 poles it was.
18 Q. Would it be one of the thicker ones or one of the
19 narrower ones; do you know that?
20 A. I do not know that either. I do not know. I was in
21 no situation to really register precisely the type of
22 pole I was tied to because I had been beaten and I was
23 being beaten. I was really shocked when I saw them
24 bringing a rope to tie me with. In fact I thought at
25 the moment I would be hanged.
1 Q. Were you tied to that pole with your back to the pole
2 with your hands behind you round the pole; is that the
3 way you were tied to the pole?
4 A. My hands were around the pole and I was facing the pole.
5 Q. Were you tied loosely to the pole or tightly to the
7 A. I was tied tightly to it. My hands were tied tightly
8 and I was also gagged with some sort of a rag.
9 Q. The people who you have told us were involved in this
10 incident were Senad Landzo, Camdzic and Zilic; is that
12 A. Landzo was there, he tied me to the pole, and Osman
13 Dedic, Camdzic and I do not know. There was another
14 one. I do not know who it was.
15 Q. If you told Mr. Hortemo of the office of the prosecutor
16 that it was a person name Zilic, or something like that,
17 does that refresh your memory?
18 A. It could have been him. I really did not remember
19 well, cannot remember well the names of the guard. I
20 remember their faces better.
21 Q. You were beaten for approximately 45 minutes while tied
22 around that pole; correct?
23 A. All I can say exactly to a minute or 10 minutes. It
24 lasted about half an hour, perhaps 45 minutes. I cannot
25 say precisely.
1 Q. And you were beaten by, beaten on the back and beaten in
2 the kidney area, that sort of thing?
3 A. Yes, and in the head after having been ordered to kneel,
4 and I kneeled there as they hit me. When they stopped I
5 could not walk.
6 Q. Can you tell me approximately how many times you were
7 hit while you were in that position?
8 A. Not only if I had someone in charge to count the blows
9 and tell me afterwards I could do that. I really have
10 no idea how many times I have been hit. I only know
11 how I ended and how I felt afterwards.
12 Q. So prior to being tied to that pole you had already been
13 beaten prior to that so you were in pretty bad shape
14 before that beating even began, was that your position?
15 A. Certainly I was beaten before and beaten severely.
16 Q. So you are tied to this pole with your head up against
17 the pole and four people standing behind you beating
18 you, I take it you cannot tell us who it was that hit
19 you with each of those blows. You were not able to see
20 who it was that was hitting you; is that correct?
21 A. Yes, I saw these persons when I left the tunnel number
22 nine when Zenga placed a rifle barrel to my head. Then
23 he also brandished this rope. He had this rope with
24 which he tied me to the pole. First he said they would
25 hang me, but they did not. They tied me up to the pole
1 and they beat me and Dedic, as I already said, Osman and
2 Camdzic were with Zenga on that occasion and another man
3 whose name I cannot recall.
4 Q. Yes, I understand all that, but that was not my
5 question. It is probably that I asked it wrong. Let
6 me try is it again. At the time the blows were being
7 struck, you are not able to tell this Tribunal who it
8 was that struck each of those blows, which one of those
9 four. You just know that someone among those four
10 people was beating you?
11 A. All of them were beating me, certainly all them hit me.
12 Q. That is just an assumption on your part because you
13 could not see who was hitting you because you were
14 lashed to a pole and could not swivel your head round
15 backwards and watch, could you?
16 A. No, I could not turn my head and watch them beating me.
17 Q. All right. Now it is true -- excuse me just a second,
18 your Honour. You were at Celebici when the
19 International Committee of the Red Cross came the first
20 time; correct?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. And you know that by that time Mr. Landzo had already
23 left Celebici and was there no longer?
24 A. That is not true.
25 Q. Do you know of an organisation by the name of the
1 Association of Detainees?
2 A. No.
3 Q. Are you a member of any organisation called the
4 Association of Detainees in Belgrade?
5 A. No, I am not.
6 Q. You have never been to their offices?
7 A. No, I have not.
8 Q. Never talked to anyone there?
9 A. I have never talked to anyone from such an
10 association. I do not know of any such association.
11 I do not know what their function or their task is.
12 Q. Prior to your coming here to give your testimony, aside
13 from the three statements that we have talked about,
14 have you talked with anyone outside The Hague with any
15 kind of an observation or association about your
16 experiences and given them any kind of statements?
17 A. No, I know of no association. I have not talked to
18 anyone apart from this here final.
19 Q. How about the Serbian Council Information Centre; does
20 that ring any bells with you?
21 A. No, it does not.
22 Q. Do you know a gentleman by the name of Petar Fjodovan?
23 A. It is the first time I heard of it.
24 Q. Branka Jovanovic?
25 A. No.
1 Q. Can you remind me of the date that you claimed to have
2 escaped from Musala?
3 A. I believe that it was 3rd November 1993.
4 Q. And Relja Mrkajic that was with you was not the Dr Relja
5 Mrkajic, was it?
6 A. No, it was not.
7 Q. That is all the questions I have, thank you.
8 A. You are welcome.
9 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Thank you very much. Any other
11 Cross-examination by Ms. Residovic.
12 Q. Good afternoon, Your Honours, it is my turn for the
13 cross-examination now.
14 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Yes, you may proceed.
15 Q. May I proceed?
16 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Yes, you may.
17 Q. Thank you. Mr. Kuljanin, you must be tired after this
18 whole day of questioning, but before I start with my
19 questions I should like to tell you something that you
20 probably know. I am defendant's counsel for Mr. Zejnil
21 Delalic and since I am the first person to be putting
22 questions to you who speaks and understands your
23 language and you understand mine, I would like by
24 warning you to warn myself too that we bear in mind that
25 what I am asking and what you are answering is being
1 translated, so that in order to make it possible for
2 their Honours and everyone else here in the courtroom to
3 be able to follow, I ask you to wait for my question to
4 be translated, to give your answer and I will wait for
5 the translation of your answer. It may seem to us to
6 be rather slow, this process of question and answer, but
7 that is the only possible procedure. Have you
8 understood what I am saying. Yes, thank you thank
10 Mr. Kuljanin, in the course of the examination in
11 chief by the prosecution you gave some information
12 regarding your work, what you did and where you
13 worked. I would just like to ask whether as a caterer
14 or rather as a waiter, were you working at Stojcevac
15 until the beginning of the war, that is in the Hotels
16 Igman, the work organisation of the winter Olympic
17 games; is that correct?
18 A. In 1985 I completed the catering school in Sarajevo and
19 in 1986 I think it was, that the first time that I went
20 to Bjeljasinca mountain where you worked in the Hotel
21 Smok. Afterwards, as necessary, I was transferred to
22 Hotel Igman, as all those hotels belonged to a single
23 company, Stojcevac, Igman and Bjeljasinca. I would be
24 sent where I was needed. So I cannot tell you exactly
25 where I worked at what time as regards those three
2 Q. But in any event until the beginning of the war you
3 worked in the various facilities belonging to this
4 organisation as a waiter?
5 A. Yes, but more recently towards the end I was on
6 holiday. I had some days off, but in any event all my
7 documents were left there in the company in Sarajevo.
8 Whether any of that was recovered, I do not know.
9 Q. Mr. Kuljanin, since we have only just started the
10 cross-examination let me repeat again the warning
11 I made. You understand me and you are answering me
12 immediately but you can hear the English translation and
13 only when you hear the end of the translation will you
14 then answer.
15 A. No, I really do not listen to the translation.
16 Q. I can already see that the questions and answers are
17 getting blended together.
18 A. I can only hear you.
19 Q. Will you please pay attention because on these other
20 earphones you will be able to hear the English
21 translation of my question. When that translation
22 comes to an end will you answer me then and I will
23 continue with my questions? In view of the fact that
24 you said that you had worked in several facilities
25 belonging to the same company, the winter Olympic games,
1 as it was called, can you tell the court that these
2 facilities, Stojcevac, Igman were facilities close to
3 the city of Sarajevo, or rather on the territory of the
4 municipalities belonging to the city of Sarajevo; is
5 that correct?
6 A. Yes, that is correct.
7 Q. And for the last five or six years you were mostly
8 living in those same facilities in which you worked, you
9 were temporarily accommodated there, whereas on weekends
10 and on your free days you went home to Bradina; is that
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. You went to work for the last time somewhere in April
14 1992; is that so?
15 A. I think so. I think that is so.
16 Q. And then you returned from your work safely to Bradina,
17 where you stayed until the combat operations that you
18 have been testifying about all day today?
19 A. Yes, I was in Bradina.
20 Q. From your place of work in Stojcevac or Mount Igman you
21 went to Bradina and reached Bradina safely without any
22 problems; is that so?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. At that time as a citizen of both Sarajevo and Bradina
25 you knew that the situation in the city of Sarajevo was
1 very difficult after the events of April 6th; is that
3 A. May I just say that I was in Bradina before April 6th.
4 I reached Bradina, I cannot recall the exact date, but
5 it was before April 6th.
6 Q. As a citizen of Bradina you were monitoring what was
7 happening in Sarajevo after the proclaimation of Bosnia
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. And as a citizen of Konjic and Bosnia Herzegovina you
11 knew that because of those events a state of immediate
12 threat of war had been introduced in Bosnia Herzegovina?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. And you know as a military conscript that that state
15 means that a work obligation is being introduced on a
16 footing of equality with a military obligation and that
17 employed people were duty bound to go to work?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. In spite of that, Mr. Kuljanin, you did not go to work,
20 nor did you report to your work organisation or company
21 to receive other military assignment; is that so?
22 A. It is.
23 Q. As you were born in Konjic and that is your permanent
24 residence, you were also aware that after this
25 proclaimation of general mobilisation you should have
1 reported to the military department of the municipal
2 community of Konjic?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. You stayed in Bradina. You did not report to the
5 territorial defence of the Konjic municipality?
6 A. Yes, that is so.
7 Q. Since under your military obligations you may also be
8 appointed to the reserve police force you did not report
9 to the MUP of the city of Konjic, did you?
10 A. I did not.
11 Q. Your Honours.
12 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: You are quite correct, this is a
13 convenient time to break. Quite right. We will
14 continue tomorrow morning.
15 MS. RESIDOVIC: Thank you, Your Honours.
16 (The court adjourned)