Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 5709

     1                                          Wednesday, 6th August 1997

     2          .

     3      (2.30 pm)

     4      JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE:  Good afternoon, ladies and gentlemen.

     5          Where do we stand now, Mr. Niemann?

     6      MR. NIEMANN:  Do your honours wish me to make the appearances

     7          now?

     8      JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE:  No, I just want to know where we

     9          stand.

    10      MR. NIEMANN:  The situation is, your Honour, that the witness

    11          that was to follow the witness that is presently giving

    12          testimony was Mr. Panzer from the Austrian police.  Early

    13          this morning, his wife suffered what they have described

    14          as a circulatory collapse.  I cannot assist your honours

    15          in what that condition is, but it is such that he had to

    16          return to Vienna immediately and he also has a three

    17          year old son that it was necessary for the witness to go

    18          home to look after, in view of his wife's condition.

    19                This will cause some disruption to the programme

    20          the Prosecution had in terms of its witnesses, because

    21          it was anticipated that having regard to the fact that

    22          Mr. Panzer would be dealing with a large number of

    23          documents, that it was unlikely that his testimony would

    24          have been completed by tomorrow afternoon.

    25      JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE:  Before we proceed further, let us have

Page 5710

     1          the appearances so that I know.

     2      MR. NIEMANN:  May it please your Honour, my name is Niemann,

     3          and I appear with Mr. Turone, Mr. Waespi and

     4          Ms. Van Dusschoten.

     5      JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE:  And the Defence, please?

     6      MS. RESIDOVIC:  Good afternoon, your honours, I am

     7          Ms. Residovic, Defence counsel for Zejnil Delalic and

     8          with me is Mr. Eugene O'Sullivan, Professor from Canada.

     9      MR. OLUJIC:  Good afternoon, your honours, my name is Olujic,

    10          I appear on behalf of Mr. Mucic.  With me is Mr. Michael

    11          Greaves, attorney from the United Kingdom of

    12          Great Britain and Northern Ireland.

    13      MR. MORAN:  Good afternoon, your honours.  My name is Tom

    14          Moran and I appear with Salih Karabdic for Mr. Delic, and

    15          because of the change in the Prosecution's witness

    16          schedule, we are not blaming anyone, but Mr. Karabdic had

    17          to make a quick trip to the detention centre to get Mr.

    18          Delic to identify some documents.  He may well be back

    19          before the break.

    20      MS. McMURREY:  Good afternoon, your honours, I am Cynthia

    21          McMurrey and I am here representing Esad Landzo.

    22          Mr. Ackerman is ill today but he should be well enough to

    23          return tomorrow.  I just wanted to bring to the court's

    24          attention that you have excused the appearance of

    25          Mr. Landzo.

Page 5711

     1      JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE:  Thank you very much.  Mr. Niemann, you

     2          are welcome to continue what you were trying to say.

     3      MR. NIEMANN:  Yes, your Honour.  At this stage we simply do

     4          not know when Mr. Panzer can return to The Hague, whether

     5          it be next week or some later stage, as we do not know

     6          what the condition of his wife will be and his personal

     7          circumstances in that respect.

     8                Your honours, we did make provision for an

     9          additional witness to be available to give testimony.

    10          In fact, it is a witness that I had intended to take in

    11          evidence-in-chief.  That witness is a gentleman by the

    12          name of Mr. Branko Sudar.  His name is on the witness

    13          list.  I am not sure what the position is with respect

    14          to the Defence in terms of their readiness for me to

    15          lead that witness.  I would have thought that possibly

    16          Mr. Navrat may take the rest of the day in terms of his

    17          testimony, and in view of the fact that some of the

    18          accused are not here, it may either require us to bring

    19          in those accused, if we are to call this witness.  So

    20          far as I am concerned, I am prepared to take this

    21          witness next in line.  I would have appreciated more

    22          time to speak to the witness, this has all happened very

    23          suddenly, so certainly if the Defence need more time

    24          tomorrow morning to prepare, then that would also suit

    25          the Prosecution, but if they do not and they are ready

Page 5712

     1          to proceed at ten, then we will make ourselves ready for

     2          that purpose as well should we need to call that witness

     3          at that time.

     4      MR. GREAVES:  I was just going to suggest that perhaps after

     5          we have dealt with the witness this afternoon we could

     6          have a short adjournment so those of us on this side of

     7          the bar could discuss how we would like to deal with

     8          that and whether there is any view about that and report

     9          back to your honours after a short adjournment.  I do

    10          not know whether that would be convenient to your

    11          honours.  I see my learned friend Mr. Niemann nodding.

    12      MR. NIEMANN:  That is certainly convenient as far as I am

    13          concerned.

    14      JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE:  Tomorrow is the only day we have for

    15          these arrangements as we are not sitting on Friday, so

    16          let us see how you carry on today and tomorrow you can

    17          start some of this and you tell me how you can bring

    18          your next witness.  Let us have the witness.

    19                         (Witness entered court)

    20      JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE:  We will swear the interpreter first.

    21                          THE INTERPRETER (sworn)

    22                        WOLFGANG NAVRAT (continued)

    23      THE REGISTRAR:  I must remind you that you are still under

    24          your oath.

    25      MR. O'SULLIVAN:  Your honours, I have no further questions

Page 5713

     1          for this witness.  I pass the witness

     2                        Cross-examined by MR. GREAVES

     3      Q.  May it please your Honour, Mr. Navrat, can you help me

     4          please about this question.  Can you tell us, please,

     5          whether you either speak, understand or read any of the

     6          Serbo-Croat group of languages, that is Croatian,

     7          Bosnian or Serbian?

     8      A.  No, those are what you might refer to as foreign

     9          languages for me.

    10      Q.  Do you speak any foreign languages at all apart from

    11          German?

    12      A.  I do my best with English.

    13      Q.  I am not going to put you to the test Mr. Navrat, all

    14          right.  I want to ask you now, please, about the

    15          importance of preparing documents which you were asked

    16          about yesterday briefly.  During the process of carrying

    17          out a search and an arrest and so on, a number of

    18          official documents have to be produced by law; that is

    19          right, is it not?

    20      A.  Where are they to be produced?

    21      Q.  By police officers, in other words records of what has

    22          taken place.

    23      A.  That is right.

    24      Q.  Can you help us about this, please?  What do you as a

    25          police officer see as the purpose of preparing records

Page 5714

     1          of activities that you have carried out?

     2      A.  Do you mean this in general terms, or does this question

     3          relate specifically to the search in question?

     4      Q.  In general terms we are going to deal with to start off

     5          with please, Mr. Navrat.

     6      A.  I would say as far as the search goes, the record and

     7          the report about a search, the inventory, and if

     8          something is found, an inventory, then you would also

     9          need an analysis report, those would be required.

    10      Q.  I would like to see whether you agree with the following

    11          propositions, please, Mr. Navrat.  Would you agree that

    12          producing a record, for example, of a search or of an

    13          arrest is firstly to provide reliable -- a reliable and

    14          accurate record of what has taken place during the

    15          search or the arrest?

    16      A.  That is right.

    17      Q.  And then having produced the report, would you agree

    18          that it would then enable others who have to check what

    19          has happened to have an accurate and reliable account

    20          upon which they can rely?

    21      A.  That is right.

    22      Q.  And after others, other police officers, other

    23          officials, have dealt with those documents, it enables

    24          the court to be able to have an accurate and reliable

    25          piece of evidence upon which it in turn can rely?

Page 5715

     1      A.  That is right.

     2      Q.  When you sign a document, Mr. Navrat, what do you

     3          perceive as the purpose of you signing a document such

     4          as a Niederschrift or a Bericht?

     5      A.  That the contents of the document is right.

     6      Q.  And if the contents are incorrect, what is the purpose

     7          of your signature in those circumstances?

     8      A.  What I sign should be correct.

     9      Q.  Let us look at it the other way round.  If the

    10          information contained in documents which, for example,

    11          you sign is incorrect, would you agree that those who

    12          use the document afterwards will be basing their

    13          information and their judgments on inaccurate,

    14          unreliable information?

    15      A.  I would assume so.

    16      Q.  And if the information contained in the document which

    17          is inaccurate information pertains to the most important

    18          bits of information, that makes the document pretty well

    19          worthless, does it not?

    20      A.  Generally speaking I could go along with that.

    21      Q.  Thank you.  Just dealing with this short issue on the

    22          place that the Niederschrift forms within the chain of

    23          making documents, is the Niederschrift a document which

    24          is physically taken along to the search?

    25      A.  That is right, and that is also as per the code of

Page 5716

     1          criminal procedure.

     2      Q.  Is that the only document which is taken to the search

     3          for making a record of what happens at the search?

     4      A.  No, one also takes along the search warrant to hand it

     5          over to the person concerned on the spot.

     6      Q.  Of course, but in terms of a document upon which things

     7          are then written, is the Niederschrift the only one upon

     8          which information is recorded?

     9      A.  As a rule, no, because the officer who has been in the

    10          field is going to be drawing up a report and need not

    11          necessarily rely on the record, the Niederschrift.

    12      Q.  So he writes nothing down and then goes back to the

    13          office and does his best to remember what it is he has

    14          recovered, does he?

    15      A.  If he needs to, he will take it along, yes.

    16      Q.  But where a Niederschrift is used, it is from that

    17          document that a report would be prepared?

    18      A.  That is right.

    19      Q.  So if information is recorded by the searching officers

    20          on the Niederschrift which is incorrect information, the

    21          report which is prepared from it will be based on

    22          inaccurate information, will it not?

    23      A.  I would assume so, if you want to put it that way.

    24      Q.  In turn, when those documents are placed before either

    25          an Austrian court or, as here, before the International

Page 5717

     1          Tribunal at The Hague, in terms of the process we

     2          discussed earlier, the court is faced with a document

     3          which contains inaccurate information?

     4      A.  I assume that was the case in this instance, but I would

     5          like to add that subsequently the officers go on working

     6          on the case and then improve matters in a document that

     7          would be drawn up at a later stage.

     8      Q.  No doubt.  I would like now to ask you please,

     9          Mr. Navrat, about some of the evidence which you gave to

    10          us yesterday.  Can I remind you please of this, you were

    11          asked yesterday about the folders that you had seized at

    12          the INDA-Bau building.  You told their honours this:

    13                "I put these folders in a plastic bag and we put

    14          all the seized items together; that is to say I took

    15          these and the video tapes to the police station."

    16                You were then asked this question:

    17                "When you say police station, which police station

    18          is that?

    19                Answer:  That is my department, that is in Vienna,

    20          in the 1st district, Schotenring 729, 3rd floor."

    21                You were then asked this question:

    22                "Where did you go in the building on the

    23          3rd floor?

    24                Answer:  In the department concerned, I believe it

    25          is room 326.

Page 5718

     1                Question:  When you went into room 326, what did

     2          you do then?

     3                Answer:  I handed over the box with the videos and

     4          the bag with the folders.  I put those on Mr. Panzer's

     5          desk and I told him I was done with the search and then

     6          he took over these items for further processing."

     7                A few moments later, you told the court that the

     8          room in which Mr. Panzer was handed the folders was the

     9          room where Mr. Panzer and his team ordinarily worked.  Do

    10          you recall giving us that evidence yesterday?

    11      A.  That is absolutely right.

    12      Q.  I want now to tell you about the evidence which

    13          Mr. Moerbaur gave to this Tribunal on Day 35, which was

    14          some time ago in June.  First of all he told us that his

    15          team, that of Mr. Panzer, Mr. Moerbaur and Bycek, was room

    16          331.  He gave evidence that you came to room 331 and

    17          gave him the seized objects from INDA-Bau; that you gave

    18          Mr. Moerbaur the material after 5 pm, and that the

    19          INDA-Bau material was contained in boxes, and on the

    20          following day he told us this -- he was asked this

    21          question by Mr. Turone:

    22                "Going back to the afternoon of 18th March, you

    23          said that your colleague Navrat brought into room 331,

    24          materials seized in the premises of INDA-Bau right after

    25          the house search.

Page 5719

     1                Answer:  Yes, Navrat on 18th March, in the

     2          afternoon, brought the objects to me in room 331 of the

     3          Vienna headquarters."

     4                Then a few pages further on, Mr. Turone asked this

     5          question:

     6                "Mr. Moerbaur, you say that amongst the seized

     7          material brought by Mr. Navrat and given to you by

     8          Mr. Navrat and coming from INDA-Bau, there were also 12

     9          files?

    10                Answer:  Yes, that is right."

    11                Mr. Navrat, do you see from what I have just read

    12          out to you that the two accounts that have been given to

    13          this Tribunal concerning these documents, these files,

    14          are completely different accounts; do you understand

    15          that?

    16      A.  Could you please explain in a little bit more detail

    17          exactly where you see a contradiction?  Which

    18          contradiction are you referring to?

    19      Q.  Mr. Moerbaur says that you gave him the seized materials

    20          from INDA-Bau.  You have told us that you gave them to

    21          Grupenfuhrer Panzer.  They are not the same people, are

    22          they, Mr. Navrat?

    23      A.  I do not necessarily see a contradiction in that,

    24          because apparently Mr. Moerbaur and Mr. Panzer were in the

    25          room at the time and Mr. Panzer as a superior would have

Page 5720

     1          been the one I would have addressed myself to but

     2          Mr. Moerbaur may have taken the things.  I do not see a

     3          contradiction in that.

     4      Q.  We will leave that for others to judge, Mr. Navrat.  You

     5          told us you handed over a box with the videos and a bag

     6          with the folders.  Mr. Moerbaur told us they were all in

     7          boxes.  Do you see a contradiction between those pieces

     8          of information?

     9      A.  It was in a cardboard box, the video tapes, and

    10          I brought it into the office where Mr. Panzer and his

    11          people work and it was given to Mr. Panzer.  I take it

    12          that Mr. Moerbaur was present at the time.

    13      Q.  He has told us the material was brought in boxes, not

    14          that it was brought some in boxes and some in a bag.

    15      A.  The plastic bag was probably inside that cardboard box.

    16      Q.  Just one small thing, you think that you do not know

    17          where room 331 is in the headquarters building, is that

    18          it?

    19      A.  I would just like to point out that there is over 120

    20          people in our department and I do not know exactly --

    21          I do not know each and every office number of each and

    22          every individual.  Sometimes I do not even know my own.

    23      MR. GREAVES:  It must make for a very confusing day at the

    24          office, Mr. Navrat.  Thank you, I have no further

    25          questions.

Page 5721

     1      MR. MORAN:  Your Honour, I have no questions for this

     2          witness.

     3      MS. McMURREY:  Your Honour, as Esad Landzo's Defence

     4          counsel, I have no questions for this witness either.

     5          Thank you.

     6      JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE:  Any re-examination?

     7      MR. NIEMANN:  No, your Honour, nothing in re-examination.

     8      JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE:  I suppose this is the end of his

     9          testimony.  He is discharged.  Thank you very much for

    10          your assistance.

    11                          (The witness withdrew)

    12      JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE:  Mr. Niemann, do you have anything else?

    13      MR. NIEMANN:  Your honours, I think that it might be useful

    14          if we could have a moment to have a discussion with

    15          members of the Defence in terms of proceeding with the

    16          next witness.  We are in a position where we can proceed

    17          with a witness if all parties are happy for that to

    18          happen and obviously if that is convenient to the

    19          court.  I think it might be useful if we could have a

    20          discussion first and then report back to your honours on

    21          our position on that.

    22      JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE:  I think in the circumstances we will

    23          break for 30 minutes because then we might be able to

    24          determine what to do.  We will break until 3.30.

    25      (3.05 pm)

Page 5722

     1              (Court adjourned until 10 am the following day)