1 Wednesday, 6th August 1997
3 (2.30 pm)
4 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Good afternoon, ladies and gentlemen.
5 Where do we stand now, Mr. Niemann?
6 MR. NIEMANN: Do your honours wish me to make the appearances
8 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: No, I just want to know where we
10 MR. NIEMANN: The situation is, your Honour, that the witness
11 that was to follow the witness that is presently giving
12 testimony was Mr. Panzer from the Austrian police. Early
13 this morning, his wife suffered what they have described
14 as a circulatory collapse. I cannot assist your honours
15 in what that condition is, but it is such that he had to
16 return to Vienna immediately and he also has a three
17 year old son that it was necessary for the witness to go
18 home to look after, in view of his wife's condition.
19 This will cause some disruption to the programme
20 the Prosecution had in terms of its witnesses, because
21 it was anticipated that having regard to the fact that
22 Mr. Panzer would be dealing with a large number of
23 documents, that it was unlikely that his testimony would
24 have been completed by tomorrow afternoon.
25 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Before we proceed further, let us have
1 the appearances so that I know.
2 MR. NIEMANN: May it please your Honour, my name is Niemann,
3 and I appear with Mr. Turone, Mr. Waespi and
4 Ms. Van Dusschoten.
5 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: And the Defence, please?
6 MS. RESIDOVIC: Good afternoon, your honours, I am
7 Ms. Residovic, Defence counsel for Zejnil Delalic and
8 with me is Mr. Eugene O'Sullivan, Professor from Canada.
9 MR. OLUJIC: Good afternoon, your honours, my name is Olujic,
10 I appear on behalf of Mr. Mucic. With me is Mr. Michael
11 Greaves, attorney from the United Kingdom of
12 Great Britain and Northern Ireland.
13 MR. MORAN: Good afternoon, your honours. My name is Tom
14 Moran and I appear with Salih Karabdic for Mr. Delic, and
15 because of the change in the Prosecution's witness
16 schedule, we are not blaming anyone, but Mr. Karabdic had
17 to make a quick trip to the detention centre to get Mr.
18 Delic to identify some documents. He may well be back
19 before the break.
20 MS. McMURREY: Good afternoon, your honours, I am Cynthia
21 McMurrey and I am here representing Esad Landzo.
22 Mr. Ackerman is ill today but he should be well enough to
23 return tomorrow. I just wanted to bring to the court's
24 attention that you have excused the appearance of
25 Mr. Landzo.
1 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Thank you very much. Mr. Niemann, you
2 are welcome to continue what you were trying to say.
3 MR. NIEMANN: Yes, your Honour. At this stage we simply do
4 not know when Mr. Panzer can return to The Hague, whether
5 it be next week or some later stage, as we do not know
6 what the condition of his wife will be and his personal
7 circumstances in that respect.
8 Your honours, we did make provision for an
9 additional witness to be available to give testimony.
10 In fact, it is a witness that I had intended to take in
11 evidence-in-chief. That witness is a gentleman by the
12 name of Mr. Branko Sudar. His name is on the witness
13 list. I am not sure what the position is with respect
14 to the Defence in terms of their readiness for me to
15 lead that witness. I would have thought that possibly
16 Mr. Navrat may take the rest of the day in terms of his
17 testimony, and in view of the fact that some of the
18 accused are not here, it may either require us to bring
19 in those accused, if we are to call this witness. So
20 far as I am concerned, I am prepared to take this
21 witness next in line. I would have appreciated more
22 time to speak to the witness, this has all happened very
23 suddenly, so certainly if the Defence need more time
24 tomorrow morning to prepare, then that would also suit
25 the Prosecution, but if they do not and they are ready
1 to proceed at ten, then we will make ourselves ready for
2 that purpose as well should we need to call that witness
3 at that time.
4 MR. GREAVES: I was just going to suggest that perhaps after
5 we have dealt with the witness this afternoon we could
6 have a short adjournment so those of us on this side of
7 the bar could discuss how we would like to deal with
8 that and whether there is any view about that and report
9 back to your honours after a short adjournment. I do
10 not know whether that would be convenient to your
11 honours. I see my learned friend Mr. Niemann nodding.
12 MR. NIEMANN: That is certainly convenient as far as I am
14 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Tomorrow is the only day we have for
15 these arrangements as we are not sitting on Friday, so
16 let us see how you carry on today and tomorrow you can
17 start some of this and you tell me how you can bring
18 your next witness. Let us have the witness.
19 (Witness entered court)
20 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: We will swear the interpreter first.
21 THE INTERPRETER (sworn)
22 WOLFGANG NAVRAT (continued)
23 THE REGISTRAR: I must remind you that you are still under
24 your oath.
25 MR. O'SULLIVAN: Your honours, I have no further questions
1 for this witness. I pass the witness
2 Cross-examined by MR. GREAVES
3 Q. May it please your Honour, Mr. Navrat, can you help me
4 please about this question. Can you tell us, please,
5 whether you either speak, understand or read any of the
6 Serbo-Croat group of languages, that is Croatian,
7 Bosnian or Serbian?
8 A. No, those are what you might refer to as foreign
9 languages for me.
10 Q. Do you speak any foreign languages at all apart from
12 A. I do my best with English.
13 Q. I am not going to put you to the test Mr. Navrat, all
14 right. I want to ask you now, please, about the
15 importance of preparing documents which you were asked
16 about yesterday briefly. During the process of carrying
17 out a search and an arrest and so on, a number of
18 official documents have to be produced by law; that is
19 right, is it not?
20 A. Where are they to be produced?
21 Q. By police officers, in other words records of what has
22 taken place.
23 A. That is right.
24 Q. Can you help us about this, please? What do you as a
25 police officer see as the purpose of preparing records
1 of activities that you have carried out?
2 A. Do you mean this in general terms, or does this question
3 relate specifically to the search in question?
4 Q. In general terms we are going to deal with to start off
5 with please, Mr. Navrat.
6 A. I would say as far as the search goes, the record and
7 the report about a search, the inventory, and if
8 something is found, an inventory, then you would also
9 need an analysis report, those would be required.
10 Q. I would like to see whether you agree with the following
11 propositions, please, Mr. Navrat. Would you agree that
12 producing a record, for example, of a search or of an
13 arrest is firstly to provide reliable -- a reliable and
14 accurate record of what has taken place during the
15 search or the arrest?
16 A. That is right.
17 Q. And then having produced the report, would you agree
18 that it would then enable others who have to check what
19 has happened to have an accurate and reliable account
20 upon which they can rely?
21 A. That is right.
22 Q. And after others, other police officers, other
23 officials, have dealt with those documents, it enables
24 the court to be able to have an accurate and reliable
25 piece of evidence upon which it in turn can rely?
1 A. That is right.
2 Q. When you sign a document, Mr. Navrat, what do you
3 perceive as the purpose of you signing a document such
4 as a Niederschrift or a Bericht?
5 A. That the contents of the document is right.
6 Q. And if the contents are incorrect, what is the purpose
7 of your signature in those circumstances?
8 A. What I sign should be correct.
9 Q. Let us look at it the other way round. If the
10 information contained in documents which, for example,
11 you sign is incorrect, would you agree that those who
12 use the document afterwards will be basing their
13 information and their judgments on inaccurate,
14 unreliable information?
15 A. I would assume so.
16 Q. And if the information contained in the document which
17 is inaccurate information pertains to the most important
18 bits of information, that makes the document pretty well
19 worthless, does it not?
20 A. Generally speaking I could go along with that.
21 Q. Thank you. Just dealing with this short issue on the
22 place that the Niederschrift forms within the chain of
23 making documents, is the Niederschrift a document which
24 is physically taken along to the search?
25 A. That is right, and that is also as per the code of
1 criminal procedure.
2 Q. Is that the only document which is taken to the search
3 for making a record of what happens at the search?
4 A. No, one also takes along the search warrant to hand it
5 over to the person concerned on the spot.
6 Q. Of course, but in terms of a document upon which things
7 are then written, is the Niederschrift the only one upon
8 which information is recorded?
9 A. As a rule, no, because the officer who has been in the
10 field is going to be drawing up a report and need not
11 necessarily rely on the record, the Niederschrift.
12 Q. So he writes nothing down and then goes back to the
13 office and does his best to remember what it is he has
14 recovered, does he?
15 A. If he needs to, he will take it along, yes.
16 Q. But where a Niederschrift is used, it is from that
17 document that a report would be prepared?
18 A. That is right.
19 Q. So if information is recorded by the searching officers
20 on the Niederschrift which is incorrect information, the
21 report which is prepared from it will be based on
22 inaccurate information, will it not?
23 A. I would assume so, if you want to put it that way.
24 Q. In turn, when those documents are placed before either
25 an Austrian court or, as here, before the International
1 Tribunal at The Hague, in terms of the process we
2 discussed earlier, the court is faced with a document
3 which contains inaccurate information?
4 A. I assume that was the case in this instance, but I would
5 like to add that subsequently the officers go on working
6 on the case and then improve matters in a document that
7 would be drawn up at a later stage.
8 Q. No doubt. I would like now to ask you please,
9 Mr. Navrat, about some of the evidence which you gave to
10 us yesterday. Can I remind you please of this, you were
11 asked yesterday about the folders that you had seized at
12 the INDA-Bau building. You told their honours this:
13 "I put these folders in a plastic bag and we put
14 all the seized items together; that is to say I took
15 these and the video tapes to the police station."
16 You were then asked this question:
17 "When you say police station, which police station
18 is that?
19 Answer: That is my department, that is in Vienna,
20 in the 1st district, Schotenring 729, 3rd floor."
21 You were then asked this question:
22 "Where did you go in the building on the
23 3rd floor?
24 Answer: In the department concerned, I believe it
25 is room 326.
1 Question: When you went into room 326, what did
2 you do then?
3 Answer: I handed over the box with the videos and
4 the bag with the folders. I put those on Mr. Panzer's
5 desk and I told him I was done with the search and then
6 he took over these items for further processing."
7 A few moments later, you told the court that the
8 room in which Mr. Panzer was handed the folders was the
9 room where Mr. Panzer and his team ordinarily worked. Do
10 you recall giving us that evidence yesterday?
11 A. That is absolutely right.
12 Q. I want now to tell you about the evidence which
13 Mr. Moerbaur gave to this Tribunal on Day 35, which was
14 some time ago in June. First of all he told us that his
15 team, that of Mr. Panzer, Mr. Moerbaur and Bycek, was room
16 331. He gave evidence that you came to room 331 and
17 gave him the seized objects from INDA-Bau; that you gave
18 Mr. Moerbaur the material after 5 pm
19 INDA-Bau material was contained in boxes, and on the
20 following day he told us this -- he was asked this
21 question by Mr. Turone:
22 "Going back to the afternoon of 18th March, you
23 said that your colleague Navrat brought into room 331,
24 materials seized in the premises of INDA-Bau right after
25 the house search.
1 Answer: Yes, Navrat on 18th March, in the
2 afternoon, brought the objects to me in room 331 of the
3 Vienna headquarters."
4 Then a few pages further on, Mr. Turone asked this
6 "Mr. Moerbaur, you say that amongst the seized
7 material brought by Mr. Navrat and given to you by
8 Mr. Navrat and coming from INDA-Bau, there were also 12
10 Answer: Yes, that is right."
11 Mr. Navrat, do you see from what I have just read
12 out to you that the two accounts that have been given to
13 this Tribunal concerning these documents, these files,
14 are completely different accounts; do you understand
16 A. Could you please explain in a little bit more detail
17 exactly where you see a contradiction? Which
18 contradiction are you referring to?
19 Q. Mr. Moerbaur says that you gave him the seized materials
20 from INDA-Bau. You have told us that you gave them to
21 Grupenfuhrer Panzer. They are not the same people, are
22 they, Mr. Navrat?
23 A. I do not necessarily see a contradiction in that,
24 because apparently Mr. Moerbaur and Mr. Panzer were in the
25 room at the time and Mr. Panzer as a superior would have
1 been the one I would have addressed myself to but
2 Mr. Moerbaur may have taken the things. I do not see a
3 contradiction in that.
4 Q. We will leave that for others to judge, Mr. Navrat. You
5 told us you handed over a box with the videos and a bag
6 with the folders. Mr. Moerbaur told us they were all in
7 boxes. Do you see a contradiction between those pieces
8 of information?
9 A. It was in a cardboard box, the video tapes, and
10 I brought it into the office where Mr. Panzer and his
11 people work and it was given to Mr. Panzer. I take it
12 that Mr. Moerbaur was present at the time.
13 Q. He has told us the material was brought in boxes, not
14 that it was brought some in boxes and some in a bag.
15 A. The plastic bag was probably inside that cardboard box.
16 Q. Just one small thing, you think that you do not know
17 where room 331 is in the headquarters building, is that
19 A. I would just like to point out that there is over 120
20 people in our department and I do not know exactly --
21 I do not know each and every office number of each and
22 every individual. Sometimes I do not even know my own.
23 MR. GREAVES: It must make for a very confusing day at the
24 office, Mr. Navrat. Thank you, I have no further
1 MR. MORAN: Your Honour, I have no questions for this
3 MS. McMURREY: Your Honour, as Esad Landzo's Defence
4 counsel, I have no questions for this witness either.
5 Thank you.
6 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Any re-examination?
7 MR. NIEMANN: No, your Honour, nothing in re-examination.
8 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: I suppose this is the end of his
9 testimony. He is discharged. Thank you very much for
10 your assistance.
11 (The witness withdrew)
12 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Mr. Niemann, do you have anything else?
13 MR. NIEMANN: Your honours, I think that it might be useful
14 if we could have a moment to have a discussion with
15 members of the Defence in terms of proceeding with the
16 next witness. We are in a position where we can proceed
17 with a witness if all parties are happy for that to
18 happen and obviously if that is convenient to the
19 court. I think it might be useful if we could have a
20 discussion first and then report back to your honours on
21 our position on that.
22 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: I think in the circumstances we will
23 break for 30 minutes because then we might be able to
24 determine what to do. We will break until 3.30.
25 (3.05 pm)
1 (Court adjourned until 10 am