Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 5723

     1                                     Thursday, 7th August 1997

     2      (10.00 am)

     3      JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE:  Good morning, ladies and gentlemen.

     4          Can we have the appearances?

     5      MR. NIEMANN:  If it please your Honours, my name is Niemann

     6          and I appear with my colleagues Ms. McHenry and

     7          Mr. Turone, and Ms. Van Dusschoten.

     8      JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE:  Thank you very much.

     9      MS. RESIDOVIC:  Good morning, your Honours.  I am Edina

    10          Residovic, appearing on behalf of Mr. Zejnil Delalic,

    11          together with my colleague Mr. Eugene O'Sullivan,

    12          professor from Canada.

    13      MR. OLUJIC:  Good morning, your Honours, I am Zejnil Olujic.

    14          I appear for Zdravko Mucic, together with my colleague

    15          Michael Greaves, attorney from the United Kingdom of

    16          Great Britain and Northern Ireland.

    17      MR. KARABDIC:  Good morning, your Honours, I am Salih

    18          Karadzic, attorney from Sarajevo, appearing on behalf of

    19          Hazim Delic, together with Mr. Thomas Moran, attorney

    20          from Houston Texas.

    21      MR. ACKERMAN:  Good morning, your Honours, my name is John

    22          Ackerman and I am appearing here today for Mr. Esad

    23          Landzo, and my co-counsel is Ms. Cynthia McMurray.

    24      JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE:  Thank you very much.  The Trial Chamber

    25          wishes to start these proceedings by giving our decision

Page 5724

     1          on the application to call additional witnesses.

     2                The Trial Chamber has carefully considered the

     3          Prosecution's written application for leave to call

     4          additional witnesses, the written response of the

     5          Defence for the accused Zejnil Delalic, and the

     6          contributions of all parties during the oral arguments

     7          on this issue.  We have also considered the written

     8          response of the Defence for the accused Zejnil Delalic.

     9          We have decided to grant the Prosecution leave to call

    10          the additional witnesses identified in its application

    11          by the numbers one through to seven.

    12                It is clear from the arguments of the parties that

    13          the Prosecution's compliance with the disclosure

    14          obligations is the root of the contention.  It is

    15          obvious that the final witness notification in the

    16          application, which is dated 4th July 1997, is four

    17          months later than the 7th March 1997 date fixed by the

    18          Trial Chamber in its Scheduling Order of 25th January

    19          1997 for the Prosecution to disclose the names and other

    20          particulars of its witnesses to the Defence.

    21                Thus it is obvious that the Prosecution's

    22          compliance or otherwise with its disclosure obligations

    23          is called into question.  But it is also clear that the

    24          Prosecution relied on the express words of Rule

    25          67(A)(i), which allows it to notify the Defence of the

Page 5725

     1          names of the witnesses it intends to call in proof of

     2          the guilt of the accused and in rebuttal of any Defence

     3          plea of which the Prosecutor has received notice in

     4          accordance with sub rule (ii) below.  The emphasis here

     5          is on the names of the witnesses that it intends to call

     6          in proof of the guilt of the accused.  The witnesses

     7          involved in this case may be classified in two

     8          categories; witnesses one to five in one category and

     9          witnesses six and seven in another.

    10                Witnesses one to five:

    11                In a letter dated 5th December 1996, the

    12          Prosecution informed the Defence that barring agreement

    13          between the parties as to the authentication of certain

    14          documents, it would call additional witnesses for

    15          authentication purposes.  On 13th May 1997, they gave

    16          notice of the names of these possible witnesses, namely

    17          witnesses one to five related to the issue of

    18          authentication.  It is obvious that prior to the

    19          commencement of the present proceedings, the Prosecution

    20          had no intention of calling these five persons as

    21          witnesses, thus its sub-rule 67(A)(i) obligation to

    22          disclose their names and particulars to the Defence had

    23          not crystallised at the time it submitted its initial

    24          witness list on 7th March 1997.  The Trial Chamber is

    25          satisfied, on a consideration of all the submissions of

Page 5726

     1          the Prosecution, that when the Prosecution did form the

     2          intention to call these witnesses, it informed the

     3          Defence on 13th May 1997 and sought leave of the Trial

     4          Chamber on 4th July 1997.  It does not appear to the

     5          Trial Chamber that there has been any mala fides on the

     6          part of the Prosecution with respect to these witnesses.

     7                In respect of witnesses six and seven, again there

     8          does not appear to be any mala fides on the part of the

     9          Prosecution; in fact to the contrary it appears that the

    10          Prosecution has set out, in its application and its

    11          response to the Defence reply, a totally credible set of

    12          events which, taken together, rendered it unable to

    13          previously fulfil its disclosure obligations.

    14                Thus, the Prosecution's non-compliance with the

    15          Trial Chamber Scheduling Order is an insufficient ground

    16          on its own to deny the application to call any of these

    17          seven witnesses.

    18                There are, however, further considerations that

    19          have weighed on the Trial Chamber.  As we are all aware,

    20          the Trial Chamber is charged with the duty under Article

    21          20 of the International Tribunal's Statute of ensuring a

    22          fair trial for the accused persons.  One of the basic

    23          indices of such a fair trial is the right of the accused

    24          to have adequate time for the preparation of his defence

    25          as prescribed in Article 21.  The Trial Chamber is

Page 5727

     1          satisfied that the Defence has had adequate time to

     2          prepare for these additional witnesses and as such, it

     3          will not be unduly prejudiced if the Prosecution calls

     4          them to give evidence.  On 13th May 1997, over two and

     5          a half months ago, the Prosecution disclosed that it

     6          might call these witnesses.  On 4th July, a month ago

     7          when it was sure that it will call the witnesses it put

     8          the Defence on notice and sought leave of the Trial

     9          Chamber.  In the opinion of the Trial Chamber, the

    10          Prosecution has done what is required of it and the

    11          Defence has had adequate time to prepare for these

    12          witnesses.

    13                The Trial Chamber has taken note of the

    14          apprehensions of the Defence, particularly in relation

    15          to witnesses 6 and 7.  With regard to these witnesses

    16          the Trial Chamber will give full consideration to

    17          convincing arguments supporting any measures requested

    18          of it in future in accordance with the fundamental

    19          principles of fairness.

    20                All participants in the present proceedings are

    21          urged to remember that the Trial Chamber is an

    22          instrument of justice to all concerned, not only to the

    23          accused persons, who without doubt have the most

    24          substantial interest in these proceedings, but also to

    25          the victims, the witnesses and the international

Page 5728

     1          community as a whole.  In the pursuit of justice, the

     2          Trial Chamber has to consider all those lawful avenues

     3          through which a truthful picture of the events that

     4          surround the present proceedings may be made known.

     5                In deciding in favour of the Prosecution, the

     6          Trial Chamber has sought to balance all these interests,

     7          particularly the rights of the accused persons, the

     8          duties of the Prosecution and its role as an instrument

     9          of justice.

    10                As I said, this is our interim decision.  I think

    11          this will enable us to clear the fog surrounding the

    12          calling of additional witnesses.

    13      MR. ACKERMAN:  Your Honour, there is a -- I do not know how

    14          else to raise this but this way, if there is another way

    15          I am pleased to be advised of it.  There is an error in

    16          the transcript that changes the meaning of the ruling

    17          you just entered, your Honour.  It is on page 3,

    18          line 12, what appears in the transcript is "following

    19          argument" and the words that your Honour said were

    20          "barring agreement".  This changes it quite

    21          dramatically.  "Following argument" should be

    22          substituted with "barring agreement".

    23      JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE:  Thank you very much.  For the

    24          Prosecution, where do we stand with you?

    25      MR. NIEMANN:  Your Honour, the next witness that the

Page 5729

     1          Prosecution intends to call notified me first thing this

     2          morning that he wanted certain protective measures in

     3          relation to himself in order for him to give his

     4          testimony.  I might just say, your Honours, that this

     5          issue was raised with this witness on a number of

     6          occasions previously and up until this morning his

     7          position has been that he did not need or require

     8          protective measures, but since arriving at The Hague he

     9          has changed his mind in relation to it.

    10                Your Honours, I have questioned him about the

    11          situation, and it does not seem -- the issues that

    12          particularly concern him is publication outside of the

    13          chamber, so he is concerned about the image of his face

    14          being shown on television outside of the courtroom and

    15          so in that respect, he has asked me to make an

    16          application so that the image of his face can be

    17          distorted on the television outlet that leaves the

    18          building.

    19                The other matter that he has requested is that he

    20          did not want to have his name published in newspapers

    21          and the like.  In relation to that, your Honour, that is

    22          perhaps a more difficult matter because his name, of

    23          course, has appeared publicly on witness lists and

    24          certainly no attempt has been made up to this stage to

    25          conceal that.

Page 5730

     1                I have spoken to him about the issue, and have

     2          covered with him the circumstances which cause him to

     3          give rise to requesting me to make this application.

     4          Your Honours, frankly this witness does not fall into

     5          the usual category of witness that would more readily

     6          justify the making of an order, especially the granting

     7          of a pseudonym, but I should say, your Honours, that he

     8          has presented himself as being a person under some

     9          considerable stress that I have observed since he has

    10          been here.  He tells me your Honours -- he is 47 years

    11          of age, he tells me that he has since been -- since the

    12          war in 1992 he has had a heart attack, and he is at the

    13          moment experiencing chest pains, but he still

    14          nevertheless is willing to proceed.  The position with

    15          respect to the medication he is on is a bit ambiguous.

    16          It seems he has been prescribed medication but he has

    17          not been taking it.  He tells me he did see a doctor two

    18          weeks ago in relation to his chest pains and, as I said,

    19          he is currently at the very moment that I spoke to him

    20          before coming into the courtroom said that he is

    21          suffering from chest pains but he does not feel that the

    22          pains are sufficiently strong enough to prevent him from

    23          giving evidence, but he has asked me that if they get

    24          worse, can I raise the matter with the Chamber and

    25          I have undertaken to him that I would do that.

Page 5731

     1                Your Honours, I cannot make this application for

     2          the distortion of the image and the suppression of his

     3          name justifiably, I do not think, on the basis of any

     4          fears that he may have where he lives, but it would

     5          certainly, it seems to me, considerably relieve the

     6          stress that he is presently under in terms of giving his

     7          evidence now if he was to know that he was given these

     8          protective measures.  I have not had an opportunity to

     9          raise this matter with the Defence.  As I say, I found

    10          out about it this morning just after nine o'clock when

    11          I then went into a discussion with him about the

    12          matter.  I do formally apply for it, your Honours, and

    13          I submit that if your Honours were inclined to grant

    14          these measures, I think it would considerably assist in

    15          the obtaining of the evidence that he is to present

    16          before the chamber.

    17      JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE:  My greatest fear in this is the

    18          impracticability of some aspects of the protective

    19          measures, because if everything about him is already

    20          known and is out, what is the use of a protective

    21          measure now, except that of distorting his image?

    22      MR. NIEMANN:  Your Honours, I have brought that to his

    23          attention and I cannot but agree with your Honour.  His

    24          name has been given to the Defence and I do not know how

    25          much further or wider it has been circulated about

Page 5732

     1          that.  Certainly his image, as far as I am aware, has

     2          not been made public.  I have spoken to him and asked

     3          him whether he has ever participated in interviews on

     4          television and the like and he tells me he has not.  He

     5          says he has never spoken to any journalists or media

     6          people in relation to what evidence he would give before

     7          this chamber.  To some extent, your Honours, I think

     8          there is perhaps still room for protective measures and

     9          that those measures could still have some effect so it

    10          would not as such be a totally empty order but I cannot

    11          but concede, your Honour, that if complete protection

    12          was sought to be offered then it is far too late to

    13          achieve that end.

    14      JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE:  If we are to grant the application, we

    15          have to limit it to the possible aspects for which the

    16          order can be made.  The question of distorting his image

    17          is the only thing that is outstanding.

    18      MR. NIEMANN:  I acknowledge that, your Honour.

    19      JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE:  If you consider the order that this

    20          Trial Chamber can make.

    21      MR. NIEMANN:  I think the facial distortion would go a long

    22          way, your Honour, to easing his concerns and I think he

    23          would understand, your Honour, the position but that is

    24          what he has asked me to do.  I have raised the matter

    25          and I cannot put it any higher than the fact that he is

Page 5733

     1          a man who is under some stress.  He is a man who would

     2          appear to be -- appear to have a medical condition which

     3          may in fact be exacerbated by public exposure of his

     4          name and identification.

     5      JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE:  What is the Defence view about the

     6          protection?

     7      MS. RESIDOVIC:  Your Honour, it is true, as we have

     8          discussed several times so far, that each witness in

     9          accordance with Rule 69 under special circumstances may

    10          request protective measures.  What I find strange is

    11          that speaking about this trial as a public trial, which

    12          should be accessible to all, to find ourselves in a

    13          situation to discuss protective measures just before the

    14          witness is due to appear in court, and I fear that this

    15          could become a habit, and we might believe the claims of

    16          the witnesses regarding the justification of protective

    17          measures as a principle.  That is why I would oppose

    18          this kind of request for protective measures without, of

    19          course, interfering with the right of the witness to

    20          have such protective measures under special

    21          circumstances.

    22                The second point I should like to make is that my

    23          learned colleague the Prosecutor has indicated the

    24          reasons given by this witness.  I do not know who could

    25          take upon themselves the risk of his physical condition,

Page 5734

     1          if it is true that this witness had a heart attack, and

     2          he still has chest pains and we do not have the view of

     3          a physician as regarding his capacity to testify, I fear

     4          that we could witness certain medical problems of this

     5          witness.  It is true that this is just what the witness

     6          has said as the Prosecutor has informed us, but being

     7          laymen, one knows what chest pains mean for a heart

     8          patient.  Regardless of this, I would like to appeal to

     9          you that our colleagues from the Prosecution, for the

    10          sake of the full realisation of the right to Defence and

    11          the preparation of the Defence, in addition to your

    12          efforts for them to disclose the whole list of

    13          witnesses, that they give us a precise list of witnesses

    14          for next week so that what happened yesterday should not

    15          happen again, and I am saying this only to take

    16          advantage of this opportunity I have been given to speak

    17          so as not to have to rise again.  Thank you, your

    18          Honour.

    19      MR. ACKERMAN:  Your Honours, two points that I would like to

    20          make.  First of all, I would like to commend my

    21          colleague Mr. Niemann on the very candid way that this

    22          matter was presented to the court this morning.

    23          Secondly, I am also concerned about the health of this

    24          witness.  I also, and I think several of us here in the

    25          room, have some knowledge of what chest pains can mean.

Page 5735

     1          It seems to mean just out of an abundance of caution,

     2          your Honour, that this witness ought to be examined by a

     3          doctor, which could probably happen rather quickly, and

     4          have us advised.  He probably has no idea the stress

     5          that might be involved with testimony in this room, and

     6          we could get some advice on whether his condition is

     7          such that he should not be subjected to that stress

     8          today, or whether he should be given some medication or

     9          something like that before we just run him in here and

    10          put him under that stress and take the risk of him

    11          falling out of his chair.  None of us would want that to

    12          happen, none of us would want to take any responsibility

    13          for not having raised the matter and sought some way to

    14          assure ourselves before we do that with this man that he

    15          can testify safely in a healthy way.  That is what

    16          I would suggest.  Thank you.

    17      MR. GREAVES:  Your Honours, I speak with some personal

    18          experience.  Many years ago, I was cross-examining a

    19          defendant who had a heart attack in the dock.  It is an

    20          extremely distressing experience for everybody when that

    21          happens.  I would not want it to happen in this case.

    22          It affects the way in which one approaches a

    23          cross-examination of a witness.  You are fearful if you

    24          get really stuck into it, he is going to have a heart

    25          attack.  It is only fair to the Defence that we know

Page 5736

     1          precisely what this man's condition is, particularly as

     2          he appears to be negligent about taking his medicine,

     3          according to the Prosecution.  I would support my

     4          learned friend Mr. Ackerman's suggestion.

     5      JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE:  I am grateful to the Defence for being

     6          so concerned about the health and condition of a

     7          Prosecution witness.  If the Prosecution thinks that

     8          their witness might not be able to stand the risk of

     9          examination and cross-examination, I suppose they should

    10          tell us now, if you are confident or can see any reasons

    11          why he would not.

    12      MR. NIEMANN:  I find myself in agreement with what the

    13          Defence is saying here.  I am in no position to make any

    14          judgment in terms of his medical condition, I can only

    15          relate to you what he has told me.  I have no idea

    16          whether or not he is in a position to withstand

    17          cross-examination or evidence-in-chief or whatever.

    18          I do apprehend that we could perhaps have him medically

    19          examined very quickly and I could see the value in

    20          that.  It certainly would, I think, make us all more at

    21          ease if we had a medical opinion to the effect that he

    22          was in fact in a position ready to enter the witness box

    23          and that his medical condition was such that he could do

    24          that.  Certainly, your Honours, we have not had much of

    25          an opportunity to be with this witness, he arrived

Page 5737

     1          yesterday, and it was not expected he would have been

     2          called this week.  Generally these things develop during

     3          the period of time the witnesses are here and medical

     4          attention and so forth can be rendered to them.  But

     5          having regard to the very short period of time that he

     6          has been here, that opportunity has not presented

     7          itself, and indeed he did not inform us of that

     8          position, I understand, until -- he did not tell me at

     9          least until this morning and I understand he did not

    10          tell anyone in the Witness and Victims Unit until last

    11          night.  It seems to me, your Honours, that we could

    12          probably have him medically examined by a doctor and

    13          I would endeavour to see if we could do that as

    14          expeditiously as possible and then if we did receive a

    15          green light, as it were, for him to go ahead then that

    16          may -- that would permit us to proceed today and it may

    17          also assist your Honours in making any determination

    18          with respect to the application I have made as well.

    19                I am in your Honours' hands.  I can only report to

    20          your Honours that he has said to me that he is willing

    21          to proceed.  He is in the witness room ready to go now,

    22          so that is the position I am in, but I am afraid I can

    23          give no advice on the question of his state of health.

    24      JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE:  The possibility of offering protection is

    25          to keep the witness at ease as much as possible and to

Page 5738

     1          enable him to give his evidence, to absent all the other

     2          fears which he had before now.  This appears to be a

     3          more precipitate one, where he is even having pains

     4          already.  I think I would prefer him to be examined

     5          first before we will be able to determine whether we can

     6          take him, and I suppose an examination would enable the

     7          doctors to prescribe suitable medication which might

     8          carry him through.

     9                With the confidence that the Trial Chamber and the

    10          Prosecution is so interested in his health, perhaps much

    11          of his fears might be allayed and he might feel better

    12          to give evidence.  I think we might rise for some time.

    13          Do you know how soon you will be able to get this done

    14          so we know when to come back?  If you have a substitute

    15          witness?

    16      MR. NIEMANN:  I am afraid we do not.  Your Honours, we will

    17          undertake to keep both the Defence and your Honours'

    18          clerk notified about progress in this matter.  If all

    19          goes well, hopefully we will be able to proceed this

    20          morning, late this morning some time, if we are able to

    21          get a medical practitioner to look at him in that time.

    22      JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE:  The Trial Chamber will rise and wait

    23          for the results.

    24      (10.35 am)

    25                         (Adjourned until 2.30 pm)

Page 5739

     1      (2.30 pm)

     2      JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE:  How do we stand with you, Mr. Niemann?

     3      MR. NIEMANN:  Thank you, your Honours.  Your Honours, the

     4          witness has now been examined by a Dutch medical

     5          practitioner, and the results of the examination are

     6          that the condition or pain that he was suffering this

     7          morning is not as a consequence of his heart at all, and

     8          that the doctor is of the opinion that there is no

     9          reason why he should not proceed to give his testimony

    10          in court and the doctor is of the opinion that there is

    11          no fear of any consequences so far as his heart is

    12          concerned from proceeding to testify.

    13      JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE:  That is very good.

    14      MR. NIEMANN:   Your Honour, I have spoken to the witness in

    15          light of the finding of the doctor and asked him whether

    16          he still wished me to pursue his request for protective

    17          measures.  He still tells me that he does wish me to

    18          pursue that, but I have nothing further that I can add

    19          in relation to what I said this morning about that, your

    20          Honour.

    21      JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE:  We understand it and we can only give

    22          him the limited type of protection which his situation

    23          deserves.  I think that is all we can do.

    24      MR. NIEMANN:  If your Honours please.  Might I raise a matter

    25          with your Honours?  If your Honours decide he should be

Page 5740

     1          referred to by a pseudonym, or have your Honours decided

     2          that his image should be distorted?

     3      JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE:  I really do not see the value of a

     4          pseudonym.

     5      MR. NIEMANN:  That is as I understood you.

     6      JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE:  His name has been advertised

     7          sufficiently if anyone wanted to know.

     8                            BRANKO SUDAR (sworn)

     9                           Examined by MR. NIEMANN

    10      Q.  Sir, the court has granted to you certain measures with

    11          respect to the distortion of the image of your face when

    12          it is broadcast on the television.  Do you understand

    13          that?

    14      A.  Yes, I do.

    15      Q.  Would you please state your full name?

    16      A.  Branko Sudar.

    17      Q.  Where were you born?

    18      A.  I was born in Cerici, Konjic on November 4th 1949.

    19      Q.  Did you attend your education, did you receive your

    20          education in that town?

    21      A.  Yes, I completed my school there, I was a skilled driver

    22          and obtained my highly skilled driving qualifications

    23          there.

    24      Q.  What is your ethnic background?

    25      A.  Ethnic background, I am a Serb.

Page 5741

     1      Q.  So where were you living at the beginning of 1992?

     2      A.  I was living in my house down at Cerici in Konjic.

     3      Q.  What was your employment at that time, at the beginning

     4          of 1992?

     5      A.  I was employed from 1968 with Sipad enterprise, Konjic,

     6          until the war broke out.

     7      Q.  Sipad Enterprises, what is the nature of the work that

     8          that organisation carries on?

     9      A.  Forestry and timber and I myself was in the

    10          transportation department.

    11      Q.  Mr. Sudar, could you move closer to the microphone

    12          please?  You cannot be heard sitting back that far.

    13                Sir, can you tell me the ethnic background of the

    14          majority of the citizens who resided in the village of

    15          Cerici?

    16      A.  The majority of the people living in Cerici were Serbs

    17          by nationality.

    18      Q.  Are you married?

    19      A.  Yes, I am married.

    20      Q.  In early 1992, did you have occasion to leave Cerici

    21          with your wife?

    22      A.  Yes, I had occasion in the beginning of 1992, I felt the

    23          presence of some armies in Cerici.  They came there,

    24          they killed.  I noticed that something was very wrong,

    25          so I took my wife and children and transferred them to

Page 5742

     1          Montenegro.  Then I returned home to Cerici, then I saw

     2          lots of unknown soldiers roaming through the city, HVO

     3          people in black uniforms and some others wearing some

     4          berets and fezes on their heads, unknown troops to me.

     5          Then I again tried to transfer my wife and children away

     6          to get them away, but I could not pass through the city

     7          because I was stopped so we came back home to Cerici.

     8      Q.  When you saw these troops in and around Cerici, what

     9          time was that, about what period was that, in terms of

    10          the month of the year?

    11      A.  That was in April, at the beginning of April or

    12          thereabouts, I was in the city and I noticed these

    13          things, I noticed right away that something was wrong so

    14          I took the measures which I described to get my children

    15          and my wife away to Serbia.

    16      Q.  Did you then return --

    17      A.  She joined her parents in Serbia.

    18      Q.  Did you then return to Cerici?

    19      A.  Yes, I then returned to Cerici and I was there.

    20      Q.  In May 1992, did you observe certain military activities

    21          going on in and around the town of Cerici?

    22      A.  In Cerici, I was there -- a neighbour of mine Vlado

    23          Draganic went to town and he was locked up somewhere in

    24          town in a motel and was beaten up there.  He returned

    25          all black and blue home and then I thought to myself

Page 5743

     1          that things were really hard and I had to do something.

     2      Q.  So what did you do?

     3      A.  I was at home on 20th May in my garden, watering the

     4          peppers.  I heard some shots, then I saw some army, some

     5          soldiers exercising on the sports ground and I went up

     6          to my old man, to his house, to see what was happening

     7          there.

     8      Q.  Did you recognise who these forces were that you saw

     9          exercising on the ground?

    10      A.  They wore all sorts of uniforms, how shall I describe

    11          them?  To tell you the truth, I did not dare go to the

    12          town, but those people who had seen them from close say

    13          they were some unknown troops there and we did not dare

    14          go out.

    15      Q.  What was the next thing to happen to you in relation to

    16          this military activity?

    17      A.  And another thing, we were in Cerici with my father and

    18          my mother and I saw people from Bjelasnica which is

    19          another village near to Cerici and from another place

    20          called Sudar Potok they also escaped to Cerici.  All the

    21          villagers from those surrounding villages had fled to

    22          Cerici.

    23      Q.  So these people appeared to be refugees?

    24      A.  They were mostly refugees, they were fleeing from their

    25          homes.  Everybody was fleeing to this creek to hide to

Page 5744

     1          get away from the bullets and from the unknown troops

     2          that had attacked from the city.  I do not know who they

     3          were, but mostly they wore berets, people from

     4          Bjelasnica were also attacked and from that direction,

     5          so that all the people had to flee, to hide.

     6      Q.  How long did the attack go on for, can you remember?

     7      A.  The attack went on somewhere from 20th May it started

     8          and 21st there was shelling and I heard that Jovo

     9          Gotovac had been killed in the shelling, also Uros

    10          Djurica or rather Djurica Uros was wounded and somebody

    11          transferred him into town and he died there, I do not

    12          know the details.  So women and children started crying

    13          and they were fearful and in the meantime, Rajko Cecez,

    14          Mirko Cecez and Slobodan Draganic called up the

    15          President of the municipality.

    16      Q.  Were you there when the call was made?

    17      A.  I was there, I was outside because the only telephone

    18          that was working was at my father's, because before the

    19          attack all the lines of the Serbs had been cut and there

    20          was no communication and this was the only telephone

    21          that was still working.  Why and how I really do not

    22          know.  Then they called up the President of the

    23          municipality, they spoke to him nicely.  They said that

    24          the people were not to blame, that the attacks should

    25          stop and the man promised, and there was no more

Page 5745

     1          shooting.  They said that we should go down to the river

     2          to Ugostica and come to some kind of an agreement.

     3      Q.  Did you then proceed to go down to the river?

     4      A.  On 22nd May, we gathered there, there were about 20 of

     5          us from Cerici, my neighbours, there were two or three

     6          people from about Bjelasnica.  We crossed the bridge at

     7          the river and we thought that the President of the

     8          municipality would come there as he had promised.  In

     9          the meantime, people ran out of the woods shouting

    10          "hands up" and to which all had to raise up our hands,

    11          they started beating us there.

    12      Q.  If we just stop for a moment.  Just slow down, if you

    13          could, for me, Mr. Sudar, please this all has to be

    14          translated.  If you could just take it a little bit more

    15          slowly, please.

    16                When you were told to go down to the river with

    17          that group of people, were you also given any

    18          instructions with respect to anything that you had to

    19          take with you?

    20      A.  Yes, the President said very nicely "anyone who has any

    21          weapons should carry them along and bring them there",

    22          and the people who had anything, they did bring those

    23          weapons along.  However, they took them away.  They took

    24          our belts and coats and whatever we had on and then they

    25          started beating us.

Page 5746

     1      Q.  The people that took these things away from you, did you

     2          know who they were?

     3      A.  I did, because -- I think his first name is Masic, he is

     4          the one who took my purse, my driving licence, I had 200

     5          marks and the last salary I had received in my company,

     6          he took all that away from me, he took off my belt and

     7          anything else I had.

     8      Q.  This gentleman by the name of Masic, do you know his

     9          ethnic background, the one that took the things away

    10          from you?

    11      A.  He is by nationality a Muslim.

    12      Q.  You said apart from having the things taken off you, you

    13          were also beaten.  Do you know who it was that beat you

    14          at that place?

    15      A.  Macic, he had gloves on his hands, like some kind of

    16          special boxing gloves, and they beat us with rifles,

    17          with whatever they could get their hands on, people were

    18          dropping from the blows, falling down on the sand, on

    19          the rails, some people lost consciousness and when we

    20          came to, we all had to get up again and then in the

    21          direction of Celebici, the military facility there, we

    22          had to go across the bridge with two or three guards and

    23          we had to go in front of them up to that military

    24          facility and the tunnel there.

    25      Q.  How far is it approximately from that place by the river

Page 5747

     1          where you surrendered and the camp at Celebici?  What is

     2          the distance from the bridge where you were beaten to

     3          the camp at Celebici, approximately?

     4      A.  Roughly I think it can be about three kilometres,

     5          something like that.

     6      Q.  How did you get from the bridge to Celebici?

     7      A.  From the bridge to Celebici we reached the gates where

     8          the camp was on foot, we went on foot, with two or three

     9          of these soldiers of theirs who had their guns pointed

    10          at us and they led us to that spot.

    11      Q.  Approximately, if you can remember, how many soldiers

    12          were involved in capturing you and the people that were

    13          with you that went to that bridge site on that day?

    14      A.  To tell you the truth, the attack came from all around,

    15          from Konjic, from the other side, from Bjelasnica, from

    16          Pokojiste and there were even snipers used.  My house

    17          was under fire, you could not escape the snipers.

    18      Q.  From what you were able to observe of the attack on

    19          Cerici, did you see anybody returning fire from the town

    20          out of Cerici towards the people who were attacking?

    21      A.  I could not notice anything because Vros Djurica and I,

    22          we were in the village, Slobodan Draganic also, there

    23          was firing at about Bjelasnica, at Donje Selo, that is

    24          2.5 or 3 kilometres away from me, so we could not see

    25          anything.  I really cannot answer that question.

Page 5748

     1      Q.  Did you know whether or not the Serb military forces

     2          were anywhere in the vicinity at the time of this

     3          attack?

     4      A.  In our opinion, there were no Serb military forces.

     5          There may have been about 30 people in Cerici and some

     6          people had fled from about Bjelasnica.  According to

     7          them, about 2,000 of them had attacked but even if we

     8          had defended ourself, there would not have been more

     9          than 150 of us able bodied men.

    10      Q.  Of the 150 able bodied men that you have spoken of, were

    11          any of them engaged in defending the village of Cerici?

    12      A.  I think not.  Everybody was fleeing, all the population

    13          of about Bjelasnica, Donje Selo fled down to the stream,

    14          so I really cannot give you any better answer.

    15      Q.  You mentioned a moment ago in your evidence how you were

    16          taken some 2 to 3 kilometres from the bridge to the

    17          military camp at Celebici.  Can you tell the court what

    18          happened when you arrived at the camp at Celebici?

    19      A.  When we arrived at the Celebici camp, we passed the

    20          entrance to the gates and then we all had to line up

    21          against the wall to put our hands behind our heads and

    22          our group consisted of some 20 men.  We stood there,

    23          there were some women up there too and some children,

    24          they were crying out "kill the Chetniks, what are you

    25          doing with them, beat them".  Then they beat us, we fell

Page 5749

     1          down from the blows, we would fall on the concrete, then

     2          we would have to get up again almost until the evening.

     3      Q.  Can you tell the court approximately what time it was in

     4          the day when you arrived at the Celebici camp?

     5      A.  I think it was about 1 or 2 o'clock, I really cannot

     6          remember exactly, but it was afternoon, between noon and

     7          3 pm.  I cannot tell you exactly.

     8      Q.  Did you recognise any of the people that were

     9          administering these beatings to you?

    10      A.  At that point in time there was some young men that

    11          I could not really recognise.  They were calling out

    12          somebody by the name of Sok.  We did not dare turn

    13          around, we were facing the wall.  We did not know what

    14          was hitting you.

    15      Q.  Do you know what you were being beaten with on that

    16          occasion when you arrived at the camp?

    17      A.  With rifles, with planks, with shovels, with all kinds

    18          of things.  As far as I could see there were some

    19          baseball bats, too.

    20      Q.  After this beating had taken place, what happened to you

    21          then?

    22      A.  After we had been beaten up, we were taken to the

    23          hangar.  I later learnt it was called number 22.  It was

    24          about 5 or 6 metres wide, 10 or so long, I cannot tell

    25          exactly because I really did not see it properly.

Page 5750

     1          I really cannot estimate the size, so we entered the

     2          hangar number 22.  When we entered we saw somebody who

     3          had worked in the court, Danilo Zivak sitting in the

     4          corner, there were some other men there but I cannot

     5          remember their names.  I saw Babic Slobodan, he was on

     6          the floor with his hands up.  He was covered in blood,

     7          he was not quite conscious and then we spent the time

     8          there until evening and when night fell.  They started

     9          to blindfold us and two of them would take each one of

    10          us somewhere, to some kind of a court.  You had to make

    11          some kind of a statement with your eyes tied.  They

    12          would beat us, hit us, so all 20 of us had to go to this

    13          some kind of a judge blindfolded.

    14      Q.  You said you were beaten.  Were you beaten at the time

    15          when you were interrogated, or were you beaten either

    16          going to or coming from it?

    17      A.  I cannot remember exactly, I think I was beaten --

    18          I know they hit me in the eye, I cannot remember

    19          exactly, but my eye was closed.  I could not see,

    20          I could not see for 20 days through that eye.  I cannot

    21          remember all the details.  After all, five years has

    22          gone by, but I think it was when we were going out, as

    23          far as I can remember, but I cannot be 100 per cent

    24          sure, but I know somewhere around the doors that they

    25          beat me.

Page 5751

     1      Q.  When you were interrogated, what was it they were asking

     2          you?

     3      A.  They asked us whether we were Serbs, whether we were

     4          members of the SDS, all kinds of things, where we came

     5          from, what our names were, what we had, all kinds of

     6          questions they were asking.  So you really do not even

     7          know what they are asking because we were all in some

     8          kind of a state of shock and we suffered from the

     9          beating.  Then two men would take you there to the

    10          judge.

    11      Q.  I may have asked you this question, but can you tell us

    12          the date it was that you first went to Celebici camp, if

    13          you can remember?

    14      A.  We were taken to the Celebici camp on 22nd May, and then

    15          we stayed there until about 10 or 11 at night and we

    16          were beaten.  Two of them may have stayed behind.  Then

    17          I heard from somebody they were saying:  "Pavo Mucic is

    18          coming so do not beat them any more", so they did not

    19          beat the last two.  In the meantime they said half of us

    20          should get ready to go to Musala, Konjic.  Half of them

    21          left, then I stayed behind.  Then when the van came a

    22          second time, the rest of us got in and we were driven to

    23          the sports hall in Konjic known as Musala.

    24      Q.  Did you know who it was that said that you would be

    25          going, to prepare yourself to go to the Musala sports

Page 5752

     1          hall?

     2      A.  I cannot remember exactly now.  I really cannot remember

     3          who said it.  Somebody said it outside and in all that

     4          pain and suffering, some people were dragging their

     5          feet, we climbed up.  We did not even know where we were

     6          going or how we were going.  We did not really know what

     7          was happening to us.

     8      Q.  Did you arrive at the Musala sports hall that night?

     9      A.  We arrived that night in the sports hall.  We found some

    10          people there too.  How they got there I do not know.

    11          They threw us into the cloakrooms, the locker rooms

    12          where children change for gym, and we slept in class

    13          rooms about 22, 24 of us, and the room was something

    14          like 2.5 by 4 metres.  There were one or two chairs and

    15          we all lay on the floor.  Then for about two or three

    16          days they did not give us any food, then later on they

    17          would give us a piece of bread.  Also they hardly gave

    18          us any water.

    19      Q.  Do you know who "they" are?  You keep referring to

    20          "they".  Who was it who did not give you any food and

    21          kept you locked up?

    22      A.  I am thinking of the soldiers, the soldiers who had

    23          beaten us.  I assumed -- I saw a taxi driver there,

    24          Habibija they called him.  Then there was Jeleskovic, he

    25          was there too, I think they called him Muf, then

Page 5753

     1          Halic -- they were Muslims, predominantly Muslims.

     2          There were one or two Croats, I do not know their names.

     3      Q.  How long did you stay at the sports hall, Musala sports

     4          hall?

     5      A.  I stayed there for about 20 days.  Again, I cannot

     6          remember exactly the number of days.  In the meantime,

     7          one evening towards night fall, Hazim Delic came, told

     8          me to get up, asked me where I came from.  Actually he

     9          called out five or six of us, "get ready", he said, and

    10          we did and we climbed on to a van without knowing where

    11          we were going.  Then he sat there with the driver, there

    12          was another one with him.  They took us to Celebici.

    13          Afterwards I realised that it was a camp and they put us

    14          in the hangar known as number 6.

    15      Q.  You said that Hazim Delic came.  Did he call you out --

    16      A.  No, Hazim Delic, not Delalic.

    17      Q.  If I said that, I am sorry.  I certainly meant to say

    18          Hazim Delic.  You said Hazim Delic called out the

    19          names.  Did he call out your name?

    20      A.  He called out my name and a group of five or six of us,

    21          we had to get into the van and he took us to Celebici.

    22          When I got to Celebici, they threw us into the hangar on

    23          the concrete floor, I was placed near the door.  He said

    24          "lie there".

    25      Q.  Who said lie there?

Page 5754

     1      A.  Delic when he brought me there.

     2      Q.  When you say the hangar, did you know what number hangar

     3          that was?

     4      A.  They called it number 6.

     5      Q.  This person Hazim Delic, had you ever seen or met this

     6          person before?

     7      A.  I know Hazim Delic, I worked with him.  I never had any

     8          problems with him, I really do not know what happened.

     9          We never had any quarrels or disputes.

    10      Q.  How long had you worked with Hazim Delic?

    11      A.  I was in this enterprise since 1968.  He came later.

    12          I think we must have worked together for more than 10

    13          years.

    14      Q.  This is Sipad Enterprises, is it?

    15      A.  Sipad Prenj Konjic.

    16      Q.  You say that Mr. Delic worked there?

    17      A.  Yes.

    18      Q.  Would you see him at work from time to time?

    19      A.  From time to time I would see him at work, but more

    20          recently just before this war, I do not know maybe he

    21          took unpaid leave, but I did not see him for two or

    22          three months.  Where he went, I do not know.

    23      Q.  This is two or three months before the war started in

    24          1992?

    25      A.  Yes, I think the end of 1991 and beginning of 1992,

Page 5755

     1          something like that, during the winter, that winter.

     2      Q.  Did you know what sort of work Mr. Delic used to do when

     3          he was at the factory -- at the business that you worked

     4          at?

     5      A.  Delic, in Sipad Prenj, he was a metal worker.  He worked

     6          in the transport department.

     7      Q.  Did you know any members of Mr. Delic's family?

     8      A.  I do, I know his father, his wife.  I just do not know

     9          his children.

    10      Q.  What was his father's name, can you remember?

    11      A.  His father's name is Ibro, he worked in the carpentry,

    12          in the building enterprise.  I would see this man.

    13      Q.  Is that the same business for whom you worked?

    14      A.  It was called the Nerveta company, then he was

    15          transferred, I think, to a company called Izgradnja

    16          Construction Work, but I would see him.

    17      Q.  Do you know the village that Hazim Delic came from?

    18      A.  He lived in Orahovica, a neighbouring village across the

    19          lake from me.

    20      Q.  Approximately how far is that village from Konjic?

    21      A.  I think about four to five kilometres, about five,

    22          something like that.  That is my estimate.

    23      Q.  Before the war, apart from working in the same business

    24          that you worked for, do you know whether Mr. Delic had

    25          any private businesses that he was running at the time;

Page 5756

     1          this is prior to the war?

     2      A.  His father or he or his sister, they had opened some

     3          kind of a shop, a souvenir shop in town.  They were

     4          selling something, books or something like that.  I did

     5          not go to that shop actually.  I would pass by, I never

     6          entered it.

     7      Q.  Just going back to the time when you say Mr. Delic put

     8          you into hangar number 6, when you went into that hangar

     9          was there anyone inside the hangar at the time when you

    10          arrived?

    11      A.  When I entered the hangar there were about 250 to 300

    12          people, something like that, at least 250, I think.

    13          I was sitting just next to the door, in the second

    14          line from the door.

    15      Q.  Did you stay in this place, the second line -- did you

    16          stay in this same place in the second line for the whole

    17          period of time that you were in Celebici camp, or did

    18          you move from place to place?

    19      A.  No, I did not move.  Where they put me, I stayed there

    20          all the time until I was transferred again, and I went

    21          to be exchanged.

    22      Q.  Can you describe what the conditions were like inside

    23          the hangar?

    24      A.  The conditions in the hangar were terrible.  We all

    25          slept on the concrete floor.  The food, one day there

Page 5757

     1          would be some, the next there would not.  When bread

     2          arrived, a loaf would be cut up into 15, 16 even 17

     3          slices and we would get a slice in the morning and at

     4          night.  They would give us a spoonful of water, a

     5          ladleful.  Also the door was kept shut, there was no

     6          air, we were so crammed we could not breath.  It was

     7          impossible to live under those conditions.  Then the

     8          toilet; at night, there was some kind of a bucket that

     9          we had to use for those purposes.  In the daytime we

    10          would go out.  There was a kind of hole behind the

    11          hangar and when they felt like it they would let us use

    12          it, so that as far as the hangar is concerned.  It was

    13          awful.  It was dirty.  There was dust.  Later some

    14          people fell ill, somebody called Jovak, then there were

    15          lice.  Zenga would take a dog and walk around with this

    16          dog, he and Osman Dedic.  I do not know all the surnames

    17          of these guards.  I just know some of the first names.

    18          They would take a dog, but fortunately the dog did not

    19          jump on us, nor did he bite us, but that is what he did.

    20      Q.  You said that sometimes you were allowed to leave the

    21          hangar to go to a toilet outside during the day.  Were

    22          there times when you were prevented from going to the

    23          toilet outside during the day?

    24      A.  Sometimes we were prohibited, so we had to do our best

    25          without and when we went to pee then there would be 10

Page 5758

     1          to 15 of us in a line.  Delic would come and he would

     2          order us to form a line "go to urinate".  Then we would

     3          go and then we would have to come back, we would have to

     4          run back.  Sometimes people did not even have time to do

     5          it and the time was very limited.  He would rush us.

     6          But sometimes they would let us go of our own, just

     7          behind the hangar, the guards were there.  There was

     8          also a trench there, sometimes we would be taken to the

     9          trench.

    10      Q.  Were people ever beaten or interfered with when they

    11          went to the toilet by the guards?

    12      A.  The guards beat us to tell you the truth.  They beat

    13          us -- it depended.  Sometimes somebody would go out and

    14          get hit, someone else would not get hit.  It all

    15          depended.

    16      Q.  From the place where you were seated in the hangar,

    17          where were you in relation to the doorway?

    18      A.  I was close to the doorway, facing it with my back, but

    19          sometimes I could look around because mostly we had to

    20          sit with our hands on our knees crouching.  That is how

    21          we had to sit.  When anyone appeared we had to bend our

    22          heads down and sit in that position.

    23      Q.  When the door of the hangar was opened, were you able to

    24          see outside and see what was happening outside during

    25          the day?

Page 5759

     1      A.  When the door was open I could see the guards, the

     2          troops passing by, soldiers passing by.

     3      Q.  When the door was closed was it possible for you to hear

     4          sounds outside of the hangar?

     5      A.  When the door was closed, every blow or when someone was

     6          taken out, we could hear everything.  It is easy to hear

     7          the beating, the cries, the screams, the pleas for

     8          mercy.  You could hear the voices.

     9      Q.  I now want you to have a look at this model that appears

    10          in front of you and I would ask you to get up from your

    11          seat, but just wait until I give you the instructions

    12          because you have to have the headphones.  I would ask

    13          you to rise from your seat -- you need to make sure that

    14          you stay behind the screen when you stand up and walk

    15          round, but I would like you to walk round the front of

    16          the model, look at it closely if you would and see if

    17          you can identify it and tell me where it is in that

    18          model, if you can, that hangar number 9 was -- hangar

    19          number 6 was that you were detained in.  Perhaps if you

    20          just stand behind it, I understand you cannot walk

    21          around without being seen.  If you can identify it from

    22          that position.

    23      A.  That is number 6 (indicates) the first building here,

    24          the hangar.

    25      Q.  I think we will have to make do with that, because you

Page 5760

     1          cannot walk to the front apparently.

     2                During the time that you were detained in Celebici

     3          camp, did you lose any weight?

     4      A.  I lost about 35 to 30 -- 25 to 30 kilograms.

     5      Q.  You spoke earlier of Mr. Hazim Delic, and you were able

     6          to tell me some particulars about him and about his

     7          family.  Did you come to find out what position he held

     8          in the camp at Celebici?

     9      A.  As far as I heard from what the guards were saying,

    10          Delic was the deputy warden.

    11      Q.  How did the guards treat him in terms of their

    12          relationship with him?

    13      A.  Well, sometimes he criticised severely the guards and

    14          shouted at them just as he shouted at us, and then we

    15          noticed when Pavo was absent, he was the one in charge,

    16          the one who gave the orders.

    17      Q.  You mentioned the name Pavo.  Is that some sort of a

    18          nickname?

    19      A.  Yes, that is his nickname as far as I know.

    20      Q.  When you say his nickname, who do you mean by him?

    21      A.  Pavo -- I mean Mucic.

    22      Q.  Did you know Mr. Mucic before the war?

    23      A.  No, I did not know him before the war.  I was in a

    24          village visiting a colleague of mine, also a driver and

    25          that is when I saw him once.  We had coffee.  Before

Page 5761

     1          that, I might have seen him, but I had no contact with

     2          him.

     3      Q.  When I use the word "know", what I am asking you is had

     4          you ever had occasion to meet him or see him prior to

     5          the war?

     6      A.  Prior to the war, as I said, I occasionally saw him in

     7          the street, but we did not "meet".  He worked elsewhere

     8          and I only stayed at Igman seldom.  I might have seen

     9          him, I saw him occasionally.  I did not know what his

    10          name was.  I only learnt later.

    11      Q.  When did you learn later what his name was?

    12      A.  When I was with the Montenegran he introduced himself as

    13          Mucic and that is how I learnt of his name.

    14      Q.  Can you tell us some details about this meeting that you

    15          had with the Montenegran and how it is that you met

    16          Mr. Mucic?

    17      A.  He came to this village, we met there and we were there

    18          together.

    19      Q.  The Montenegran that you have referred to, was he in any

    20          way related or connected to Mr. Mucic so far as you knew?

    21      A.  This Montenegran was a colleague of mine, and another

    22          taxi driver, also a Montenegran, came and I learnt that

    23          he was Pavo's brother-in-law, that Olga, Pavo's sister,

    24          was married to him and I learnt then that they called

    25          him Pavo, and that is when I got introduced to him.

Page 5762

     1          I did not know.  I had not known him before.

     2      Q.  When you say "introduced to him", who do you mean?

     3          Introduced to who?

     4      A.  What I actually mean, I was sitting there and he came

     5          there and then he introduced himself.

     6      Q.  Who is he, could you tell us the name?

     7      A.  Zdravko Mucic.

     8      Q.  Can you tell us approximately, you may not remember very

     9          precisely, but approximately either the year that this

    10          meeting took place, or if you cannot tell us that, can

    11          you tell us approximately how many years before the war

    12          it was that you met Mr. Mucic?

    13      A.  I think that it was somewhere around half of 1991.

    14      Q.  Did you know any of the family members or people related

    15          to Mr. Mucic?

    16      A.  They lived in the city, I had heard about Janko, his

    17          brother, that he was also working at Igman, but I had

    18          virtually no contacts with him.  I only had heard that

    19          he had a brother by the name of Janko and a father.

    20          I did not have much contact.  Once I took timber up and

    21          there was a house of a Muslim and someone showed it to

    22          me and told me "this is Janko".  That is all I know,

    23          nothing more.

    24      Q.  When you say they lived in the city, what city are you

    25          referring to?

Page 5763

     1      A.  Above the military installation, military factory at

     2          Igman, that section of the city.

     3      Q.  Do you know where Mr. Mucic worked just prior to the war?

     4      A.  As far as I know, he was in Austria.

     5      Q.  Do you know what position Mr. Mucic had at the camp?

     6          What was his position?

     7      A.  How shall I put it?  He used to come and when he came

     8          they would say that he was the warden.  I do not know

     9          what his function was, but they would say "here comes

    10          the warden, here comes the commander".  So I saw him

    11          three or four times coming to the entrance, and once he

    12          called out some names of people to be transferred from

    13          hangar number 6 to the sports hall, but while he was

    14          there, whenever we saw him, we were not exactly

    15          maltreated.  We were not taken out to be beaten, at

    16          least while I was there, but mostly when he was not

    17          there, that was the case.

    18      Q.  Did you ever see Mr. Mucic enter hangar number 6?

    19      A.  Yes, he would enter the hangar.  He would come on a

    20          motorbike, but when he was there, when he came we were

    21          not maltreated and soldiers would come inside.  All

    22          sorts of soldiers and troops would come inside, they

    23          would come to the door, take a walk, return.

    24      Q.  Did you know any of the other guards that were working

    25          in the Celebici camp during the time that you were being

Page 5764

     1          detained in hangar number 6?

     2      A.  As for other guards, to tell you the truth, I did not

     3          know them.  Zenga was there, but I did not know him.

     4          I might have seen him before as a child, but I did not

     5          know him.  There was Osman, Kemo, there was a certain

     6          Focak, a policeman, there was a man from Bjela who

     7          I knew but I have now forgotten his name, he only came

     8          later.  It eludes me, I cannot recall it right now.

     9      Q.  The person you referred to as Zenga, did you know what

    10          his surname was?

    11      A.  Surname is Landzo, they called him Zenga and Landzo.

    12          I do not exactly know what his first name is.  I am not

    13          sure of the first name.

    14      Q.  Did you know of Mr. Landzo or members of his family prior

    15          to the war?

    16      A.  I knew more of his family than of him.  I knew his

    17          father but I was not in much contact with him.  I knew

    18          his relatives, some of them were working in the saw mill

    19          and two of his father's brothers in Sipad in the timber

    20          at the present time.

    21      Q.  Do you know the names of any members of his family, his

    22          father's brothers, anyone like that?

    23      A.  I know his uncle Omer, I believe as far as I can recall

    24          that Omer is his name.  I have forgotten all these

    25          things, I used to know them all.  I have forgotten a

Page 5765

     1          lot.  Nurko is his name, he worked at a saw mill, one of

     2          the uncles, he worked at the saw mill, as I said.

     3      Q.  Was there anything about Zenga that you can recall as

     4          something that you could identify him by when he was in

     5          the camp?

     6      A.  To tell you the truth, I do not know by what, by his

     7          appearance, he was small built.  He was not tall,

     8          so-so.  He had a thin voice.

     9      Q.  When you say a thin voice, what do you mean by that?

    10      A.  High pitched voice when he shouted at us.

    11      Q.  How were you treated in the camp by Hazim Delic and

    12          Zenga Landzo?

    13      A.  Hazim Delic would provoke me, ask me questions, where

    14          I worked, how had I worked, where did I come from.  He

    15          would take me out then hit me and then afterwards he

    16          would give me a cigarette.

    17      Q.  What about Mr. Landzo?

    18      A.  Landzo also once -- when I asked to go outside to the

    19          latrine he hit me in front of the door, he would not let

    20          me go and eventually when he did let me go, when

    21          I returned he hit me with a baseball bat.

    22      Q.  While you were being detained inside hangar number 6,

    23          did you know of a prisoner by the name of Scepo Gotovac?

    24      A.  Scepo Gotovac, yes, I knew this elderly man from about

    25          Bjelasnica.  He sometimes lived in town and sometimes in

Page 5766

     1          about Bjelasnica.  He came, he was brought, once he

     2          stood by the door.  That day Delic came he had a note in

     3          his hand and he asked who is Scepo Gotovac.  The man

     4          answered "I am" and he said to him, "get up".  When the

     5          man got up he hit him several times, five or six

     6          perhaps.  I cannot remember exactly, but I do know that

     7          he hit him several times.  The man fell down and

     8          starting crying out.  Then they took him out.  They

     9          continued to beat him.  I could hear Zenga's voice.  It

    10          was Zenga actually who called him out and then I could

    11          also subsequently hear his voice.  Then we heard some

    12          water being poured on him, then they threw him inside

    13          through the door, wet as he was.  I do not remember

    14          exactly who it had been, Zivak or somebody else who had

    15          to pull him inside.

    16      Q.  Who were you referring to when you said "they took him

    17          out", that you could recognise their voices?

    18      A.  As I said, Zenga and Delic took him out.  Delic was

    19          there, he called him out.  He told him to come out and

    20          then Zenga, and Zenga's voice could be heard then, and

    21          also when he was being beaten, Zenga was shouting at him

    22          "how many Muslims have you killed", and Delic told

    23          Scepo Gotovac that as a Chetnik he had killed two

    24          Muslims in the war before that.  They ask him again "how

    25          many did you kill" and he screamed and cried out for

Page 5767

     1          mercy, calling his mother's name and he was in terrible

     2          suffering.  They beat him, again Zenga took him out

     3          again and beat him again.  We could hear his voice.

     4          They would shut the door when they beat someone.  You

     5          could only hear the voices outside.  Then they threw him

     6          inside again.  Afterwards in the morning he actually

     7          succumbed and you could hear no more cries, no more

     8          screams.  He was silent and somebody said "Scepo is

     9          dead" and I did not want to look because I could never

    10          look at a dead man.

    11      Q.  What condition was he in when they returned him to the

    12          hangar after the beating?

    13      A.  How to put it -- he just lay there crumpled on the

    14          floor, crumpled and screaming, crying, moaning.

    15      Q.  Did you notice anything about his head at the time when

    16          he was returned?

    17      A.  Zenga had hit him in the head.  To tell you the truth,

    18          I did not like to look.  I just could not bring myself

    19          to look at a dead man, but there was something wrong

    20          with his head.

    21      Q.  You say he succumbed the next morning.  Did you actually

    22          look at him the next morning at all?

    23      A.  As I told you, to tell you the truth I just could not

    24          bring myself to look at him.  Some people took him out.

    25          I was unable to bring myself to cover him.  I think some

Page 5768

     1          other people covered him a bit.  I could not bring

     2          myself to look at the dead man.

     3      Q.  Did you at any stage look at him?  You say he was a dead

     4          man, how did you know that?

     5      A.  He just lay there, he stopped moaning, and there were no

     6          signs or any sounds coming from him, so I concluded that

     7          he was dead.

     8      Q.  Are you able to do assist the court by telling us

     9          approximately the age, approximately the age of Scepo

    10          Gotovac?

    11      A.  I am not quite sure, I think that he was born somewhere

    12          in 1920, I am not quite sure, perhaps he was a bit older

    13          than that, but I think so, about 1920 was the year in

    14          which he was born.

    15      Q.  Do you happen to know what ethnic group Scepo Gotovac

    16          was?

    17      A.  Scepo was a Serb.

    18      Q.  Again during the period of time that you were detained

    19          in hangar number 6, did you know of a prisoner by the

    20          name of Simo Jovanovic?

    21      A.  I heard of Simo Jovanovic, he was some kind of a

    22          director.  He had a fish pond up there at Njeba.  We

    23          were not exactly very close, I had only heard of the

    24          man.  He lay from across from where I was lying, leaning

    25          against a wall, they also took him out many times.

Page 5769

     1          There were also some neighbours of his there who would

     2          tell him "would you like some fish" and I am not sure,

     3          I do not know all these men.  I only knew and heard that

     4          they were his neighbours and it was them who took him

     5          out repeatedly and beat him.  The last several times

     6          they also poured water on him.

     7      Q.  When you say these neighbours took him out, were these

     8          neighbours guards in the camp?

     9      A.  Zenga and Cosic and some other guys and Subasic, I just

    10          now remembered, I found out their names later.  I really

    11          did not know them well, they are younger men.  I only

    12          learnt later it was them who had called out to him

    13          "would you like some fish" and when they did that, they

    14          also beat him.

    15      Q.  Could you hear what was happening to him outside of the

    16          hangar?

    17      A.  I heard Zenga's voice outside the hangar.  I saw him and

    18          other voices shouting -- you can hear the sound of

    19          beating.  You can hear the sound of a stick landing on a

    20          body, and I really had to put my fingers in my ears not

    21          to hear that and not to hear the water hose.

    22      Q.  The last time that Mr. Jovanovic was taken out and

    23          beaten, can you recall approximately how long this

    24          beating lasted?

    25      A.  They would take him out for 20 minutes at a time or 15

Page 5770

     1          minutes, I cannot exactly recall how many minutes they

     2          would keep him outside, but they would keep beating him

     3          until he fainted and then they would just throw him

     4          inside in that condition.

     5      Q.  On the last occasion he was taken out, did you see who

     6          it was that returned him to the hangar?

     7      A.  I cannot recall exactly and I cannot say if I cannot

     8          recall exactly.  I think he was only actually pushed

     9          inside through the door and I could hear the voices

    10          outside.  I could not see exactly.  Then you were not

    11          allowed to look towards the door when it opened because

    12          you would also get hit if you looked at the door.  If

    13          you could just furtively glance at the door you could

    14          see who it was, but you could not always.

    15      Q.  You said you could only hear what was going on outside.

    16          Did you recognise any of the voices on this last

    17          occasion that Mr. Jovanovic was beaten, of the guards

    18          that were outside?

    19      A.  I heard Zenga's voice and I could hear Delic was giving

    20          the orders and I could hear his voice out there.

    21          Sometimes he would say "enough, stop".

    22      Q.  When you say sometimes he would say "enough, stop", who

    23          was saying that?

    24      A.  I heard Delic say it twice or three times, "enough,

    25          stop, enough.  No more".

Page 5771

     1      Q.  On the last occasion when he was brought into the hangar

     2          and left somewhere near the door, can you recall what

     3          condition he was in this time?

     4      A.  He was totally beaten up and he was crying out for his

     5          mother and moaning in pain, and then his voice left him

     6          and he just huddled, crumpling in a corner.  I do not

     7          know how to describe it.

     8      Q.  How long did he stay at that place in that condition?

     9      A.  I cannot recall exactly, I believe that in the morning

    10          when he died, he was taken out.  I cannot recall all the

    11          details.

    12      Q.  How do you know that he died in the morning?

    13      A.  I cannot say that he died in the morning, but I do know

    14          that he was dead.  I cannot exactly remember, they were

    15          mostly -- they would mostly die in the night.  I cannot

    16          recall all the details.

    17      Q.  Who took him out the next morning, do you remember?

    18      A.  Zenga called him out and took him out, and the guys were

    19          still standing there, Osman and Kemo, and all the

    20          others.  I could not watch the people who were beating

    21          him.  I could only hear the voices.

    22      Q.  I am referring to the next morning with they came.  Did

    23          you see who it was that took him out of the hangar the

    24          next morning?

    25      A.  Zenga called him out, as far as I could conclude.

Page 5772

     1          I cannot remember -- he could not walk on his own and

     2          people had to take him out, but I cannot remember that

     3          detail.

     4      Q.  On the last occasion that he was taken out, did you ever

     5          see him again?

     6      A.  I never saw him again.  He was never inside again, nor

     7          did he give any signs, nor did he scream.

     8      Q.  When you say "he did not give any signs, he did not

     9          scream" did you see him in the condition when he did not

    10          give any signs or did not scream?  Did you see him in

    11          that condition yourself, or is that something someone

    12          may have told you?

    13      A.  To tell you the truth, I cannot bring myself to look at

    14          a dead man and I tried not to look at them as they lay

    15          there by the door.

    16      Q.  But difficult as it is for you to look, did you

    17          occasionally just glance across the room and look at

    18          the --

    19      A.  Occasionally I would cast a glance and see him lying

    20          there, but there were no sounds or moans coming from

    21          that direction and I assessed from that, as the screams

    22          had stopped and the signs of life had stopped, that he

    23          was dead.

    24      Q.  Also while you were detained in hangar number 6, did you

    25          ever come to know a prisoner by the name of Bosko

Page 5773

     1          Samoukovic?

     2      A.  Bosko Samoukovic, you mean.  I knew this elderly man by

     3          sight, he is from Bradina.  He was fourth in the row

     4          from the door next to the wall, there he stood with his

     5          son.  I believe his name was indeed Elko, I am not sure

     6          of that.  They stood there, then Zenga came in

     7          brandishing a pole or a stick, I cannot remember

     8          exactly.  He started hitting the people in the line.

     9          First he hit Mrkajic, then he hit all the people

    10          standing in the line and the son of this old man and the

    11          old man, Bosko, many times and the man fell down.  Then

    12          he ordered someone, I cannot remember exactly whom, take

    13          him out, lead him out and they led him out.  Whether

    14          they gave him any aid I do not know.  They took him to

    15          number 22.  Someone came a bit later and said that he

    16          had died.  He had been taken to number 22.  He either

    17          died on the way to 22 or in the ward, I am not sure.

    18      Q.  When the beating first commenced, did that take place in

    19          hangar number 6, inside hangar number 6?

    20      A.  The beating took place precisely in hangar number 6.

    21          First they started beating Rajko Mrkajic and then the

    22          whole row of people.  This was an elderly man, when he

    23          fell down and it was obvious he was about to die, then

    24          they ceased beating him.

    25      Q.  You say this was an elderly man.  Tell us who you are

Page 5774

     1          referring to?

     2      A.  I am referring to Bosko Samoukovic.

     3      Q.  When you say he was an elderly man, approximately how

     4          old was Bosko Samoukovic?

     5      A.  I suppose that he was around 60, I am not quite sure of

     6          his exact age.  I suppose that this was about it.

     7      JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE:  The Trial Chamber will now break.  We

     8          will come back at 4.30.

     9      (4.00 pm)

    10                                (A short break)

    11      (4.30 pm)

    12      JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE:  Shall we continue, Mr. Niemann?

    13      MR. NIEMANN:  Thank you, your Honour.  So you were telling

    14          their honours about things that you had observed with

    15          respect to Mr. Bosko Samoukovic and you were in the

    16          middle of telling us about that at the adjournment.  Can

    17          you tell their honours whether or not you know what this

    18          gentleman's ethnic background was?

    19      A.  He was a Serb, he was a Serb; Bosko Samoukovic.

    20      Q.  When you observed the beating that took place, when it

    21          first started, how far were you sitting away from this

    22          gentleman?  Are you able to estimate that?

    23      A.  Maybe less than 10 metres, something like that.

    24      Q.  You said in your evidence that you saw him being beaten,

    25          among others, by Zenga.  Did you see what he was being

Page 5775

     1          beaten with?

     2      A.  As far as I was able to see, he had a wooden plank, a

     3          board, a stick, something like that.

     4      Q.  Who was it that had the plank, just help us with that?

     5      A.  Zenga had the plank.

     6      Q.  Did you actually observe Zenga hit Mr. Samoukovic with

     7          the plank?

     8      A.  He beat everyone, the whole row, and he beat Samoukovic

     9          and the man fell from the blows.

    10      Q.  What happened to him when he fell from the blows, that

    11          is Samoukovic, what did they do then?

    12      A.  As far as I can recall, he also said something to the

    13          effect "take them away" as far as I can remember.  They

    14          tried to give him some kind of aid and then they carried

    15          him away.  I cannot remember all the details clearly,

    16          but I remember the beating and when the man fell.

    17      Q.  Again, during the period of time that you were being

    18          detained inside hangar 6, did you know a prisoner by the

    19          name of (redacted)?

    20      A.  Yes, I did, (redacted)

    21          (redacted)

    22      Q.  Did you see anything happen to him during the time that

    23          he was in hangar number 6?

    24      A.  Zenga would take him out, he would beat him inside too.

    25          He would take him out and he would cry out and scream

Page 5776

     1          and his -- he was holding on to his hands because he had

     2          burned him with something, I do not know what it was,

     3          but on his palms and his tongue as far as I can

     4          remember, too.

     5      Q.  When you say he had burned him with something, who are

     6          you referring to as "he"?

     7      A.  Zenga, Zenga had burned him, one could hear his voice,

     8          this was outside mostly and also inside, but I cannot

     9          recall the exact details, but inside, too, he would

    10          touch him and burn him.  He was maybe 15 metres away

    11          from me.  He was moaning and crying out.  I cannot

    12          exactly say how it happened, but he was screaming and

    13          yelling and something was being done to him, and I saw

    14          the burns afterwards on his palms.

    15      Q.  Did you particularly when you were seeing things that

    16          were happening inside the hangar, did you see with what

    17          (redacted) was being burned with?

    18      A.  As far as I could see, he was holding something like a

    19          knife as far as I could see.

    20      Q.  Are you able to explain how it was that he was burnt

    21          with a knife?

    22      A.  He heated the knife and then with the red hot knife he

    23          would put it on his palms and you could see that all his

    24          palms were burnt from this red hot object.

    25      Q.  Where did he heat the knife?

Page 5777

     1      A.  I do not know how he heated it, maybe -- I think it was

     2          some gun powder, something yellow.  He would set light

     3          to it and it would burn.

     4      Q.  Did Mr. Landzo say anything to this man (redacted)when he

     5          was doing these things?

     6      A.  He would insult him and yell at him, curse him, do all

     7          kinds of things.

     8      Q.  Did at any time this man, (redacted), receive medical

     9          attention for the burns he had received?

    10      A.  He got some medical attention only when the Red Cross

    11          came.  As far as I can remember the Red Cross came and

    12          they saw these people and then they ordered that some

    13          medical aid be given to them and then they appointed a

    14          doctor, I think Relja Mrkajic and Petko, they were in

    15          number 2 and they went over there to have bandages put

    16          on them.

    17      Q.  These instances when you say (redacted) was burnt, did

    18          they happen inside the hangar or both inside and outside

    19          the hangar?

    20      A.  There was inside and outside, he would do it inside and

    21          outside; both inside and out.

    22      Q.  Again "he" referring there to Mr. Landzo?

    23      A.  Yes, Mr. Landzo, Mr. Landzo.

    24      Q.  When you say gunpowder as well, what do you mean by

    25          that, "gunpowder as well".

Page 5778

     1      A.  I think something yellowish.  I would see the children

     2          would take it out of the bullets.  It looked like

     3          something yellowish so I thought it was gunpowder.

     4      Q.  This was flammable so far as you know?  It would light

     5          up?

     6      A.  I do not know exactly.  He was carrying something in his

     7          hand, it might have been a liquid, but in any event it

     8          was burning, so I do not know.  How can I decide?

     9          I know it was burning, there was a flame.

    10      Q.  Did you know a prisoner in the camp called Mirko Babic?

    11      A.  I did, I knew Mirko Babic, he was a forester, an elderly

    12          man.  He worked in Sipad as well, as a carpenter.

    13      Q.  Can you approximately tell us his age?

    14      A.  Mirko Babic, I do not know exactly now, but close to 60,

    15          something like that, 58, 60.  I do not know exactly, but

    16          round about that.

    17      Q.  What was his ethnic group, are you able to say?

    18      A.  A Serb, he was a Serb, too.

    19      Q.  Did you observe how he was treated by Mr. Delic and

    20          Mr. Landzo during the period of time that you were in the

    21          camp?

    22      A.  They beat him, they took him out, inside also they beat

    23          him.  He was sitting there, they would hit him.  They

    24          beat him just like they beat the others.

    25      Q.  Again while you were in the camp, did you come to know a

Page 5779

     1          prisoner -- did you know a prisoner by the name of

     2          Nedeljko Draganic?

     3      A.  I did know Nedeljko Draganic, too.  His father was Rajko

     4          Draganic.

     5      Q.  Did you know him before you went into the camp?

     6      A.  I knew him before I arrived at the camp.  He is my

     7          uncle's son.

     8      Q.  Did you see anything happen to him in the camp while you

     9          were there?

    10      A.  The same things happened to him, too.  He was taken out

    11          by Zenga, by Kemo, by Osman and Delic, too, occasionally

    12          but mostly these others would take him out.  Zenga would

    13          force him to graze grass, to eat grass, where people had

    14          urinated, and he had to do it.  He had to lick

    15          something, that is what he told us in the hangar.  These

    16          things were happening outside.  On one occasion he was

    17          taken out and now I cannot exactly recall, but his

    18          trousers were burnt and he had two burns after that on

    19          his leg.

    20      Q.  Did you see these burns when he came back into the

    21          hangar?

    22      A.  Those burns could be seen later because the trousers

    23          had -- the legs of the trousers had burnt and you could

    24          see the naked flesh on his legs.

    25      Q.  Did you see whether or not he received medical attention

Page 5780

     1          for these burns?

     2      A.  He did not get any medical attention, only when the

     3          Red Cross came and they asked the people, when they came

     4          they asked individually when they would see these things

     5          on certain people.  They would ask and then they

     6          demanded that they be treated and bandaged.

     7      Q.  The time that he was taken out and received these burns,

     8          that is what you observed when he came back.  Do you

     9          know who it was that took him out on that occasion?

    10      A.  Zenga did this most.  There was something that was

    11          burning and then he would pour something on him.  His

    12          trousers were burning and then somehow they put it off

    13          so his leg got scorched.  You could hear his moans.

    14      Q.  Did you also know a prisoner by the name of Vukasin

    15          Mrkajic?

    16      A.  I knew Vukasin Mrkajic, too.  He, too, was insulted and

    17          beaten.  He would start doing pushups and they would hit

    18          him and he would fall and cry out and then they wrapped

    19          some kind of a fuse, a cord round him and he would be

    20          moaning and yelling and you could hear these moans all

    21          the time.

    22      Q.  When you say "they", who are you referring to?

    23      A.  Zenga most of all.  It was Zenga who did this most of

    24          all and then Osman and Delic were there too, Kemo, all

    25          those other guards were there too.

Page 5781

     1      Q.  Was Mr. Landzo and Mr. Delic there at the time when he was

     2          burnt with a fuse or with a cord?

     3      MS. McMURREY:  Your Honour, I am going to have to object

     4          because there has been no predicate laid as to whether

     5          this happened inside or outside.  I would like the

     6          Prosecutor to let us know whether he has personal

     7          knowledge about this.

     8      MR. NIEMANN:  I withdraw that, your Honour.  When you talk

     9          about this occasion where Mr. Vukasin Mrkajic was burned,

    10          did you observe it happening yourself?

    11      A.  Landzo did these things inside too.  He would do it

    12          inside but he would also do it outside.

    13      JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE:  You are being asked, which of them did

    14          you see do the burnings.

    15      A.  I saw mostly when they took them out and they did these

    16          things and these burnings and when they come back, they

    17          were crying, Vukasin was crying that the fuse was around

    18          his body and he came back in crying and moaning.

    19      MR. NIEMANN:  On that occasion when you saw him come out

    20          crying about the fuse that had been round his body, did

    21          you see who had taken him out on that occasion?

    22      A.  Zenga called him out, Zenga, Zenga.  He came to the

    23          door, said "come out" and that is how it was.

    24      Q.  Did you see who it was, which guard it was that actually

    25          brought him back, or was he brought back by a guard?

Page 5782

     1      A.  He flew back like a bullet being chased until the fuse

     2          dropped.

     3      Q.  When he came back into the room, did you observe any

     4          guards either at the door or near the entrance way to

     5          the hangar?

     6      A.  I could not really see all that because my back turned.

     7          Sometimes I could see, I have forgotten these things, to

     8          be quite frank with you.  I really cannot recall all the

     9          details.

    10      Q.  Do you recall hearing the sounds of the voices of the

    11          guards at the time of this particular incident that you

    12          are referring to?

    13      A.  I heard Zenga, I heard him screaming at him.  Others

    14          were shouting too, but Zenga most of all.

    15      Q.  Are you able to recall anything that Zenga said when you

    16          heard him screaming and shouting?

    17      A.  I cannot recall, I really cannot.  I must be honest

    18          about it, I cannot.

    19      Q.  Can you recall anything that Mr. Vukasin Mrkajic may have

    20          said during the time this fuse was put around his body?

    21      A.  He was screaming, he would mention his mother "do not do

    22          this to me for God's sake", something to that effect.

    23      Q.  Did he call out any of the names of the guards while

    24          this was happening?  Did he appeal to any of the guards

    25          and mention them by name or nickname?

Page 5783

     1      A.  I really cannot remember.

     2      Q.  Thank you.  Did you also know a person in the hangar

     3          number 6 by the name of Dusan Bendo?

     4      A.  I know Dusan Bendo too.

     5      Q.  Did you see anything happen to Dusan Bendo in the camp?

     6      A.  Also he was taken out and he showed us his burns on his

     7          body.  We did not dare go up to him.  He would be taken

     8          out by Zenga, it was Zenga, then he would scream and

     9          wail and we saw the burns and that was it.

    10      Q.  Do you know whether or not he was offered any medical --

    11          this is Mr. Bendo, whether he received any medical

    12          attention for the burns he had received?

    13      A.  Only when the Red Cross came as far as I believe -- not

    14          believe, but I think no one got any medical attention

    15          before the Red Cross.  Somebody was ill, had a high

    16          temperature, maybe they may have brought him a tablet or

    17          two, but I cannot really remember.  Mostly when the

    18          Red Cross came, then they went for treatment.

    19      Q.  Do you know a man by the name of Zejnil Delalic?

    20      A.  I do not know him well.  He had a car repair shop.

    21          I later heard that he had opened a cafe in his house.

    22          I never visited that cafe.  The man was working in

    23          Germany.  On one occasion, when we were in the camp

    24          somebody said, the guards would say "sit still, the

    25          commander is coming".  So I sat there looking in front

Page 5784

     1          of me.  The man entered, about five or six metres from

     2          me, now I cannot remember.  I think there were two other

     3          people with him with pistols, behind them was Delic.

     4          Delic was wearing a military uniform.  I cannot recall

     5          whether the others were in uniform.  I do not seem to be

     6          able to recall that.  The man would walk around about 10

     7          metres and as he turned back, he was at the doorway, and

     8          Delic fired a shot with his automatic rifle which went

     9          through the steel roof and then one bullet ricocheted

    10          and hit, I think hit Kuljanin and hit him in the thigh.

    11      Q.  Where did this happen, where Delic fired the bullets?

    12          Where did this happen?

    13      A.  It happened in the hangar.  They had already made the

    14          tour and I think that Delalic had also walked out.  When

    15          Delic reached the doorway, he fired this shot up into

    16          the roof.

    17      Q.  When you say "made the tour", the tour was made by

    18          Mr. Delalic; is that right?

    19      A.  Yes, I am thinking of Mr. Delalic.

    20      Q.  Mr. Delic was with Mr. Delalic at the time, was he?

    21      A.  He was with him, he was following him, behind him when

    22          they came.  Now I just cannot remember.  As far as

    23          I recall one of them had a white T-shirt, but we did not

    24          really dare look up.  We had to have our arms on our

    25          knees, they walked around a little, so I now really

Page 5785

     1          cannot recall whether he had a uniform or not.  That is

     2          the truth of it, but Delic did have a uniform.  He was

     3          always in uniform as far as I was able to observe, and

     4          he fired the shot.

     5      Q.  Did Mr. Delalic say or do anything in respect of Mr. Delic

     6          when the rifle was fired inside the hangar?

     7      A.  I cannot recall.  He may have said something, he may not

     8          have said anything, I cannot remember that.

     9      Q.  Do you recall whether Mr. Delalic did anything as a

    10          consequence of the person being wounded by the gunfire?

    11      A.  I cannot, I cannot remember, I really cannot.  I cannot

    12          say things that I cannot be sure about.  I cannot

    13          remember the details.

    14      Q.  Thank you.  Do you know where the village or the town

    15          where Mr. Delalic had his premises, the car repair

    16          premises and cafe?  Do you know the town?

    17      A.  He did not have a workshop, he had a car wash shop, and

    18          I heard later that he had opened a cafe and also he

    19          repaired tyres, as far as I can remember, and washed

    20          cars.  This was just near the motel, maybe 100 metres

    21          from the hotel in Konjic, on the way out of Konjic in

    22          the direction of Mostar on the right-hand side.

    23      Q.  Did you know any members of the Delalic family?

    24      A.  Delalics; I think it was his uncle or his brother, Dzafo

    25          Delalic, I knew him.  He was a very nice man.  What

Page 5786

     1          happened to him during this war I do not know.  He was a

     2          driver.  I knew him as a child.

     3      Q.  While you were a prisoner at the Celebici camp, were

     4          most of the soldiers that you saw and that you knew

     5          Muslims?

     6      A.  As far as the Celebici camp is concerned, there was only

     7          Pavo Mucic who was a Croat and -- yes, somebody else,

     8          Buric, a guard, but Buric was also correct.  He even

     9          brought food from certain households.  I remember him

    10          giving food to Nenad Cecez.

    11      Q.  While you were a prisoner at the camp, did you ever hear

    12          the sounds of military training units going on, or the

    13          training of soldiers happening in or about the camp?

    14      A.  I could hear around the camp, they would usually close

    15          the hangars, but we could hear applause, some kind of a

    16          hymn, I do not know what.  Then there was a kind of

    17          rifle warehouse and we had to go and unload ammunition

    18          into concrete bunkers and I saw this bunker, and just

    19          behind it one could hear applause and noise, people, a

    20          lot of people gathered.

    21      Q.  Again while you were in the camp, did you at any stage

    22          see a journalist come to the camp?

    23      A.  While we were in the Celebici camp some people did come

    24          to take photographs.  I know they were black.  I cannot

    25          say for sure whether they were from Arab countries or

Page 5787

     1          from others, but I know they were black.  They came

     2          several times, three or four times, I think it was.

     3      Q.  What did they do when they came to the camp?

     4      A.  They came to the camp, we had to sit down.  Delic would

     5          lead them.  I could not really look up.  He would force

     6          people to get up and put their hands behind their

     7          heads.  I could not see very much what happened on that

     8          occasion.

     9      Q.  The person that you just referred to, Hazim Delic, do

    10          you think you would recognise this gentleman again if

    11          you saw him?

    12      A.  Hazim Delic?  Of course I would, yes, I would be able to

    13          recognise him.

    14      Q.  Do you think you could recognise the person that you

    15          have referred to as Zenga if you saw him again?

    16      A.  I think I would.  I do not know how much he has changed

    17          in five years, but I should be able to recognise

    18          everyone.  I am not so sure about Delalic, maybe less

    19          so.

    20      MR. NIEMANN:  Thank you.  No further questions, your Honour.

    21      JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE:  Is there any cross-examination?

    22      MS. RESIDOVIC:  Your Honour, as we have not agreed about

    23          the order, I will start with the cross-examination of

    24          the witness, because it is our agreement if we do not

    25          have any special arrangements, we follow according to

Page 5788

     1          the order in the indictment.

     2      JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE:  Proceed then.

     3                      Cross-examined by MS. RESIDOVIC

     4      Q.  Thank you, your Honour.  Mr. Sudar, I am Edina Residovic,

     5          I am counsel for Zejnil Delalic.

     6      A.  Thank you, madam.

     7      Q.  Mr. Sudar, as you and I speak the same language and

     8          understand each other very well, your answers to my

     9          questions can be quick.  However, we are asked by the

    10          court that you should wait until after I ask you a

    11          question for the translation into the English language

    12          so that everybody in the courtroom can hear my question,

    13          and only then answer my question, and I myself will also

    14          wait for the translation and only then ask you another

    15          question.  Have you understood this?

    16      A.  Yes.

    17      Q.  Thank you very much.  Mr. Sudar, during the

    18          examination-in-chief, you said that you had lived in the

    19          village of Cerici until the war, is that so?

    20      A.  Yes, it is.

    21      Q.  And that you used to come to the city of Konjic until

    22          mid-April, is that so?

    23      A.  Yes, somewhere around that I had transferred my wife to

    24          her relatives in Montenegro then I returned with my

    25          car.  I also had intended to move my brother's wife and

Page 5789

     1          children, but I was returned from the road by Durak, he

     2          was there near the motel with a sort of a brigade, I am

     3          not sure what it was.

     4      MR. ACKERMAN:  I do not think the witness has understood that

     5          he can hear the English translation with those other

     6          earphones, because he is not waiting until the

     7          translation and it is all starting to run together,

     8          which is what we are trying to avoid.  So if he could be

     9          properly instructed in that regard.

    10      JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE:  Will you kindly tell him to wait for

    11          the translation of questions before he gives the

    12          answer?

    13      MS. RESIDOVIC:  Mr. Sudar, you have earphones sitting on the

    14          table in front of you and you can hear the English

    15          translation.  When the sound stops coming from the

    16          earphones will you only then answer my question?

    17      A.  Yes, I have understood.

    18      Q.  Thank you.  You have just said, Mr. Sudar, that you are

    19          not quite sure that you are able to recognise

    20          Mr. Delalic, is that so?

    21      A.  I only know him by sight, and I only saw him on a number

    22          of occasions when he came to the camp and we did not

    23          dare turn around, but the guards would say "here comes

    24          the commander".

    25      Q.  Let me ask you, before the war, you never had occasion

Page 5790

     1          to personally meet Mr. Delalic; is that correct?

     2      A.  Before the war I never had the opportunity to be in

     3          contact with Mr. Delalic.  I never had established any

     4          contact with him.

     5      Q.  Mr. Sudar, you know that in Konjic and in its

     6          surroundings there are many families bearing the same

     7          surname, is that so?

     8      A.  Yes, there are many Delalics who are related.

     9      Q.  And as you have testified before the court, you knew his

    10          brother Dzafo who immediately before the war died in

    11          Konjic.  You certainly are aware of the fact that his

    12          family is also quite numerous, is that so?

    13      A.  I do not know whether Dzafo is his brother or his uncle,

    14          I cannot say for sure.  I do not know Delalic very well

    15          because he worked abroad.  I saw his wife every now and

    16          then, I think she is from Belgrade, from Serbia.

    17      Q.  Thank you.  What you have just testified before the

    18          court is because you heard the guards, is on the basis

    19          of what you heard the guards say and not on the basis of

    20          your personal knowledge?

    21      A.  The guards said very plainly and clearly "here comes the

    22          commander.  He is at the door".  I could not see the man

    23          properly, I only saw him in passing.  I cannot now

    24          remember whether he was in uniform or not.  I only saw a

    25          man with a pistol in a white T-shirt, corpulent and wide

Page 5791

     1          built.

     2      Q.  Thank you.  You can testify before this court on the

     3          basis of your personal cognisance of facts.  Thank you.

     4                Mr. Sudar, please tell me when you returned to

     5          Cerici, when you were returning to Cerici, was it

     6          necessary for you to pass through the checkpoint which

     7          was in front of Donje Selo?

     8      A.  I did not see a checkpoint anywhere, we passed normally

     9          to Donje Selo to that side.  I do not know where the

    10          checkpoint was.  Checkpoint -- there was a checkpoint

    11          near the motel.  There was one in the city and one

    12          towards Donje Selo.  Perhaps I was intercepted, perhaps

    13          something else was the case, I do not know.

    14      Q.  You knew Lazar Cecez, is that a fact?

    15      A.  Yes, everybody knew him.

    16      Q.  And he also had certain powers in terms of inspecting

    17          people coming into and leaving Donje Selo?

    18      A.  I was not inspected by anyone.  I was never on very

    19          friendly terms with the Cecezs.

    20      Q.  Let me ask you now something in view of the fact that

    21          you testified before this court that you personally knew

    22          Mirko Babic.  Please tell me whether it is correct that

    23          Mirko Babic is from Bjelasnica and he is a forester?

    24      A.  It is true that Mirko Babic was from Bjelasnica, he

    25          worked in the carpentry department, rather in the timber

Page 5792

     1          department.  He worked there more than he was a forest

     2          warden.  I think that he was transferred to Sipad

     3          because there were more foresters than they needed, but

     4          I cannot remember exactly now.

     5      Q.  They used to call him Pal because he liked to socialise

     6          with people.  He was a bachelor and he was on his own?

     7      A.  Yes, he was a bachelor.  They called him, Jaranika which

     8          means Pal and he was not married.

     9      Q.  Thank you.  And you also know the forester Marjan Rajic,

    10          is that so?

    11      A.  The forester Marjan Rajic, I know him.  I know Marjan

    12          Rajic.

    13      Q.  You are certainly aware of the fact that several years

    14          before the war, Jaranika and Marjan Rajic had slaked

    15          some lime and they used some gas and that they had burns

    16          inflicted, serious burns on themselves?

    17      A.  I only hear this for the first time now madam.

    18      Q.  Thank you.  I should like to ask you some other

    19          questions now.  In relation to what you have testified

    20          before this court, will you please tell me, Mr. Sudar, is

    21          it true that before the war while there still existed a

    22          Yugoslavia, that the armed force of Yugoslavia was the

    23          Yugoslav People's Army and the Territorial Defence Force

    24          and that the Ministry of the Secretariat of the

    25          Interior, as we call it, dealt with police and internal

Page 5793

     1          security affairs; is that so?

     2      A.  What do you mean the Secretariat of the Interior?

     3          I have not understood the question well.

     4      Q.  So the armed forces of the former Yugoslavia were the

     5          Yugoslav People's Army and the Territorial Defence, and

     6          the police was the SUP or the MUP as we called it; is

     7          that so?

     8      A.  I do not know.  I know we had a Yugoslav Army; right

     9          before the war there appeared an army of the Muslims, or

    10          an army of the Serbs, or an army of the Croats.  There

    11          appeared or emerged three armies.

    12      Q.  After the promulgation of independence of

    13          Bosnia-Herzegovina early in April, do you know that the

    14          Yugoslav People's Army then was no longer the army of

    15          Bosnia-Herzegovina?

    16      A.  We took our oath before the authorities of the Yugoslav

    17          army and not before any other army.  I do not know what

    18          to tell you.  We as Serbs could not go to any other army

    19          but the one that we had taken an oath before.

    20      Q.  But you know that the Territorial Defence and the MUP

    21          remained in Konjic, the ones from before the war, is

    22          that so?

    23      A.  I do not know, I really did not take much interest in

    24          those matters.  I cannot give you a precise answer.

    25      Q.  Can you say that there existed in Konjic legal

Page 5794

     1          legitimate organs of authority in the first days of the

     2          war, an assembly, a presidency, a municipal government,

     3          is that so?

     4      A.  Of course, Konjic was a municipality and everything

     5          functioned while there was a Yugoslavia.  Prior to the

     6          war, immediately before the war, all the parties --

     7          there were divisions along the lines of parties SDA,

     8          SDS.

     9      Q.  No, Mr. Sudar, I am not interested in these political

    10          questions.  Let somebody else discuss those things.

    11          I am asking you about facts.  The village of Cerici from

    12          which you come, Bjelasnica, Donje Selo is a local

    13          community, all these villages and hamlets belonged to

    14          the municipality of Konic; is that a fact?

    15      A.  They belonged to it, of course, before normally, before

    16          the war I mean then.

    17      Q.  I believe that they did not go anywhere from that

    18          particular area, I am referring to the villages?

    19      A.  The villages, there are still the villages there.

    20      Q.  Thank you.  Do you know, Mr. Sudar, that in these

    21          authorities of the municipality of Konjic to which all

    22          these villages belong comprised representatives of all

    23          the nations living in Konjic?

    24      A.  You mean the municipality of Konjic?

    25      Q.  Yes, until the war.

Page 5795

     1      A.  Before the war there was mixed composition in the SUP,

     2          some people were not satisfied as far as I could see.

     3          Why that was the case I do not know.

     4      Q.  But the police force and the inspectors, the managing

     5          staff, the superiors also comprised members of all the

     6          nations?

     7      A.  Yes, while Yugoslavia existed there were.

     8      Q.  You know Duro Kuljanin, do you not?

     9      A.  Yes, but only slightly.

    10      Q.  He was the vice-president of the assembly of the Konjic

    11          municipality?

    12      A.  I do not know what he was, I was not interested in

    13          politics.

    14      Q.  But he is a Serb, is he not?

    15      A.  As far as I know he is a Serb, but I am not at all

    16          interested in politics.

    17      Q.  Very well, Mr. Sudar.  You spoke about events which took

    18          place somewhere around 20th May.  You used some national

    19          designations.  However, a while ago you said that you

    20          knew that both the Territorial Defence and the MUP were

    21          in Konjic, but you said that the HVO also appeared

    22          later?

    23      A.  In Konjic, in April, I saw in the town people wearing

    24          black uniforms, so I am not sure who they were, HOS

    25          people, and I also saw other people wearing fezes on

Page 5796

     1          their heads, you know what the army used to be before

     2          that, the Yugoslav army.  Then I could not exactly tell,

     3          but these are the uniforms I saw.

     4      Q.  This HVO army first stationed itself, as you said, in

     5          the motel and that was the reason why you no longer went

     6          to the city; is that a fact?

     7      A.  We dared not go, but some of it -- Draganic would go to

     8          buy something and when he returned he would return black

     9          and blue, Vlado Draganic.

    10      Q.  And the commander of the HVO police there was called

    11          Aga, is that a fact?

    12      A.  I do not know, to tell you frankly, I do not know who

    13          was the commander nor who -- what his function was nor

    14          his name.

    15      Q.  But you personally know Ivan Jozic?

    16      A.  Ivan Jozic, let me tell you the truth, he worked at the

    17          petrol station if that is the Ivan Jozic you are

    18          referring to.

    19      Q.  Nicknamed Aga.

    20      A.  No, that is not Aga, perhaps you have someone else in

    21          mind.  Aga was Branko Josic.

    22      Q.  And he was present when you surrendered your arms and

    23          when you were arrested?

    24      A.  No, he was not present, he was not present there as far

    25          as I could see.  There for the most part were no Croats

Page 5797

     1          down there on the bridge but only this Jozic who worked

     2          at the gas station and most of them were Muslims and

     3          they were people unknown to me.  And this Masic, I am

     4          sorry, this Masic was also there.

     5      Q.  And these are known people who arrested you, they were

     6          not the same people who you later saw at Celebici as

     7          guards?

     8      A.  To tell you the truth, I did not see so much of those

     9          people, I only saw them seldom.  I would not know them

    10          had they not come to the prison in Konjic, Masic, for

    11          instance, and because somebody told me this is Masic and

    12          he took my wallet and my identity card and my driving

    13          licence and everything else.

    14      Q.  Mr. Sudar, please, is it true that you, just as all

    15          others who pass through an unpleasant experience, wish

    16          to put it behind and forget it?

    17      A.  Madam, I would like to forget it.  My father who was 70

    18          years old was beaten at home, we heard that it was the

    19          Muslims who beat him.  We had already been taken to

    20          camp, and my father went to the house of this Aga,

    21          Branko Josic, who hid him in a barn and fed him for

    22          seven days, even bringing him coffee occasionally, to

    23          prevent them from killing him.  Then he returned my

    24          father home.  After that he was transferred by the

    25          Croats.

Page 5798

     1      Q.  And you are grateful?

     2      A.  He saved my father.

     3      Q.  Thank you, but I wish to ask you something else.  Is it

     4          true that last year you remembered some of these events

     5          better than you can recall them right now, or that you

     6          will be able to recall them in a couple of years?

     7      A.  Madam, I really cannot recall these things.  Five years

     8          have elapsed.  My father and my mother were killed in

     9          the war and I lost everything that was dear to me.

    10      Q.  But you certainly remember some of the impressive things

    11          that you remember better than some other particulars?

    12      A.  I cannot say.  If I do remember them I shall give you an

    13          answer, of course.

    14      Q.  For instance, if a bullet is fired in the hangar which

    15          is not quite a frequent occurrence, this is something

    16          that a man would tend to remember; is that not a fact?

    17      A.  Yes.

    18      Q.  You, Mr. Sudar, were heard last year in the month of

    19          February by the investigators of this Prosecutor of the

    20          International Tribunal, is that so?

    21      A.  Yes.

    22      Q.  And on that occasion you signed the statement which you

    23          made then?

    24      A.  Yes.

    25      Q.  And on that occasion the translator gave you also to

Page 5799

     1          sign a witness acknowledgment where you stated that you

     2          had given that statement of your own accord, that you

     3          had said everything that you knew and that you were

     4          aware that statement could be used before this Tribunal,

     5          is that so?

     6      A.  Yes.

     7      Q.  At that time you had no idea of who might be indicted

     8          before this court, is that so?

     9      A.  What do I know?  I really cannot tell who might or could

    10          have been or will be indicted.

    11      Q.  At that time you did not tell Mr. Sergio Oaxaca, the

    12          investigator, you did not even mention this bullet fired

    13          in the hangar and this occurrence?

    14      A.  I do not know, I perhaps have forgotten that.  Why,

    15          madam, I did not say.

    16      Q.  Had you not been directly asked about Mr. Delalic's name

    17          you would never have mentioned it; is that not so?

    18      A.  Let me tell you, Madam, please, as you say, I did not

    19          mention it then, but did I mention then Zeljko Cecez?

    20          When I came from the hall from Celebici on the religious

    21          holiday on that evening, he was also killed then.

    22          Perhaps I did not mention Klimenta either, because I had

    23          also forgotten: Zeljko Klimenta, he too, just a few days

    24          before the Red Cross came, had been also taken out in

    25          the morning and killed.

Page 5800

     1      Q.  Thank you, yes, but you stated that all the Serbs in

     2          Cerici and Donje Selo, their phone lines had been cut?

     3      A.  Yes, the telephones were down, were cut in all the

     4          villages and I heard that was not the case in my house

     5          and I dared not approach my house.  I dared not go to my

     6          house because of the snipers, as my house was down by

     7          the road, by the lake and I did not dare go there.

     8      Q.  Can you tell us on what date was it that the telephone

     9          lines were cut?

    10      A.  As far as I can recall, that took place before the

    11          attack on Donje Selo.  I really cannot recall all the

    12          particulars, but it was -- everything was cut, all the

    13          lines were cut before the attack.  I really cannot

    14          recall exactly.  I do remember they were down.

    15      Q.  But you went to your father's, Mr. Sudar, when the attack

    16          started?

    17      A.  When the attack on Donje Selo started, I dare not remain

    18          overnight and sleep in my house.  I only came to water

    19          the garden and then I would go and stay in the forest

    20          while the attack was on and then return.

    21      Q.  And, Mr. Sudar, you did not check at all whether your own

    22          phone was functioning or not, so somebody else had to

    23          inform you of this?

    24      A.  Madam, I told you, I just dared not sleep by the road

    25          because we walked across a slope to my father's house

Page 5801

     1          amid a hail storm of bullets whizzing between my and my

     2          father's house and I would just go down to water the

     3          garden and return immediately to the village, because

     4          I had no other obligations.

     5      Q.  Mr. Sudar, were you present when the interview was

     6          conducted with the President of the municipality, when

     7          the talk was conducted?

     8      A.  I was outside, Strajo Cecez called and Slobodan were

     9          inside in my father's house and they called him on the

    10          phone and he promised him reportedly that the next

    11          day --

    12      Q.  Yes, thank you.  And the President said that all the

    13          villagers were to surrender all the weapons in their

    14          possession?

    15      A.  Yes, anyone who had any armaments were to take and they

    16          did, everybody who had some arms surrendered them as

    17          instructed.

    18      Q.  And you personally also handed over your weapons?

    19      A.  Yes, the piece which I had I surrendered it -- which

    20          I had bought before.

    21      Q.  You know that many villagers in Donje Selo and Cerici

    22          had procured weapons for themselves before the war?

    23      A.  I do not know, madam.  I really know very little about

    24          that thing.

    25      Q.  Is it true that you told the investigator of the

Page 5802

     1          Prosecutor's office that you know that people were

     2          selling their cows in order to procure weapons?

     3      A.  Normally, naturally I did not sell my cow, I had some

     4          money put aside and I bought myself a weapon and later

     5          on I surrendered it.

     6      Q.  What did you have?

     7      A.  I bought myself a pistol and then I surrendered it later

     8          and I did not carry it.  I hid it in the woods.  Later

     9          when I was in the camp I told them where it was and it

    10          was found there.

    11      Q.  After the call, the talk with the President, you

    12          testified the shelling immediately stopped?

    13      A.  Yes, the shelling stopped thereafter, so they said -- a

    14          hour or so after that, towards evening.

    15      Q.  Then the morning, all of you took the weapons?

    16      A.  Not in the morning, no, madam, the shelling stopped on

    17          the 21st, and we agreed then with the President that

    18          everybody who had arms should surrender them.

    19      Q.  When you surrendered the weapons many of you wondered at

    20          the multitude of arms found in the village?

    21      A.  I do not know, madam, maybe you do but I do not.

    22      Q.  Tell me, please, what did you see of the weapons which

    23          were surrendered on that occasion?

    24      A.  I do not know exactly, there was an occasional rifle.

    25          I was among the first to hand over.

Page 5803

     1      Q.  Automatic rifles?

     2      A.  I do not know whether there had been any automatic

     3          rifles, mostly they were old hunting rifles, as far as

     4          I could see.

     5      Q.  I apologise, just let me take a look at these papers.

     6          In Celebici, you say you were interrogated, you were

     7          hurt?

     8      A.  We were blindfolded, I can tell you, and then we were

     9          beaten up.  We were unconscious and then we were taken

    10          to this judge, and I cannot really see how I can go face

    11          a judge blindfolded, I failed to really comprehend.

    12      Q.  Was this on the very next day after you had been brought

    13          to the camp of Celebici?

    14      A.  It was that same night.  First we were lined up against

    15          a wall in Celebici when we arrived that night.  Then we

    16          were beaten and then we were transferred to 22 and we

    17          found Babic lying there who later died.  There were five

    18          or six people there also, Jovak among them, each one of

    19          them was taken out that evening and beaten up and taken

    20          to face that court blindfolded.

    21      Q.  Please tell me, do you know that the President of this

    22          panel of this commission was interrogating the men that

    23          were apprehended then was Goran Lokas, the President of

    24          the court?

    25      A.  Madam, I could not see, I could not see him, and judging

Page 5804

     1          by the -- I believe that this forester Subasic

     2          I believe, judging by his accent, I heard him only utter

     3          a few -- maybe, I could not see.

     4      MS. RESIDOVIC:  Your Honours, I have a certain number of

     5          questions still, I do not know whether to finish it

     6          today; I could.

     7      JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE:  You know we have a practice of closing

     8          at 5.30.  This Trial Chamber will not sit tomorrow

     9          because we have already committed that all along.  It

    10          was our schedule that we were not sitting tomorrow, so

    11          you might as well wait until Monday to continue your

    12          cross-examination.

    13      MS. RESIDOVIC:  Thank you, your Honours.

    14      (5.35 pm)

    15                     (Court adjourned until 10.00 am on

    16                          Monday 11th August 1997)