1 Thursday, 7th August 1997
2 (10.00 am)
3 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Good morning, ladies and gentlemen.
4 Can we have the appearances?
5 MR. NIEMANN: If it please your Honours, my name is Niemann
6 and I appear with my colleagues Ms. McHenry and
7 Mr. Turone, and Ms. Van Dusschoten.
8 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Thank you very much.
9 MS. RESIDOVIC: Good morning, your Honours. I am Edina
10 Residovic, appearing on behalf of Mr. Zejnil Delalic,
11 together with my colleague Mr. Eugene O'Sullivan,
12 professor from Canada.
13 MR. OLUJIC: Good morning, your Honours, I am Zejnil Olujic.
14 I appear for Zdravko Mucic, together with my colleague
15 Michael Greaves, attorney from the United Kingdom of
16 Great Britain and Northern Ireland.
17 MR. KARABDIC: Good morning, your Honours, I am Salih
18 Karadzic, attorney from Sarajevo, appearing on behalf of
19 Hazim Delic, together with Mr. Thomas Moran, attorney
20 from Houston Texas.
21 MR. ACKERMAN: Good morning, your Honours, my name is John
22 Ackerman and I am appearing here today for Mr. Esad
23 Landzo, and my co-counsel is Ms. Cynthia McMurray.
24 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Thank you very much. The Trial Chamber
25 wishes to start these proceedings by giving our decision
1 on the application to call additional witnesses.
2 The Trial Chamber has carefully considered the
3 Prosecution's written application for leave to call
4 additional witnesses, the written response of the
5 Defence for the accused Zejnil Delalic, and the
6 contributions of all parties during the oral arguments
7 on this issue. We have also considered the written
8 response of the Defence for the accused Zejnil Delalic.
9 We have decided to grant the Prosecution leave to call
10 the additional witnesses identified in its application
11 by the numbers one through to seven.
12 It is clear from the arguments of the parties that
13 the Prosecution's compliance with the disclosure
14 obligations is the root of the contention. It is
15 obvious that the final witness notification in the
16 application, which is dated 4th July 1997, is four
17 months later than the 7th March 1997 date fixed by the
18 Trial Chamber in its Scheduling Order of 25th January
19 1997 for the Prosecution to disclose the names and other
20 particulars of its witnesses to the Defence.
21 Thus it is obvious that the Prosecution's
22 compliance or otherwise with its disclosure obligations
23 is called into question. But it is also clear that the
24 Prosecution relied on the express words of Rule
25 67(A)(i), which allows it to notify the Defence of the
1 names of the witnesses it intends to call in proof of
2 the guilt of the accused and in rebuttal of any Defence
3 plea of which the Prosecutor has received notice in
4 accordance with sub rule (ii) below. The emphasis here
5 is on the names of the witnesses that it intends to call
6 in proof of the guilt of the accused. The witnesses
7 involved in this case may be classified in two
8 categories; witnesses one to five in one category and
9 witnesses six and seven in another.
10 Witnesses one to five:
11 In a letter dated 5th December 1996, the
12 Prosecution informed the Defence that barring agreement
13 between the parties as to the authentication of certain
14 documents, it would call additional witnesses for
15 authentication purposes. On 13th May 1997, they gave
16 notice of the names of these possible witnesses, namely
17 witnesses one to five related to the issue of
18 authentication. It is obvious that prior to the
19 commencement of the present proceedings, the Prosecution
20 had no intention of calling these five persons as
21 witnesses, thus its sub-rule 67(A)(i) obligation to
22 disclose their names and particulars to the Defence had
23 not crystallised at the time it submitted its initial
24 witness list on 7th March 1997. The Trial Chamber is
25 satisfied, on a consideration of all the submissions of
1 the Prosecution, that when the Prosecution did form the
2 intention to call these witnesses, it informed the
3 Defence on 13th May 1997 and sought leave of the Trial
4 Chamber on 4th July 1997. It does not appear to the
5 Trial Chamber that there has been any mala fides on the
6 part of the Prosecution with respect to these witnesses.
7 In respect of witnesses six and seven, again there
8 does not appear to be any mala fides on the part of the
9 Prosecution; in fact to the contrary it appears that the
10 Prosecution has set out, in its application and its
11 response to the Defence reply, a totally credible set of
12 events which, taken together, rendered it unable to
13 previously fulfil its disclosure obligations.
14 Thus, the Prosecution's non-compliance with the
15 Trial Chamber Scheduling Order is an insufficient ground
16 on its own to deny the application to call any of these
17 seven witnesses.
18 There are, however, further considerations that
19 have weighed on the Trial Chamber. As we are all aware,
20 the Trial Chamber is charged with the duty under Article
21 20 of the International Tribunal's Statute of ensuring a
22 fair trial for the accused persons. One of the basic
23 indices of such a fair trial is the right of the accused
24 to have adequate time for the preparation of his defence
25 as prescribed in Article 21. The Trial Chamber is
1 satisfied that the Defence has had adequate time to
2 prepare for these additional witnesses and as such, it
3 will not be unduly prejudiced if the Prosecution calls
4 them to give evidence. On 13th May 1997, over two and
5 a half months ago, the Prosecution disclosed that it
6 might call these witnesses. On 4th July, a month ago
7 when it was sure that it will call the witnesses it put
8 the Defence on notice and sought leave of the Trial
9 Chamber. In the opinion of the Trial Chamber, the
10 Prosecution has done what is required of it and the
11 Defence has had adequate time to prepare for these
13 The Trial Chamber has taken note of the
14 apprehensions of the Defence, particularly in relation
15 to witnesses 6 and 7. With regard to these witnesses
16 the Trial Chamber will give full consideration to
17 convincing arguments supporting any measures requested
18 of it in future in accordance with the fundamental
19 principles of fairness.
20 All participants in the present proceedings are
21 urged to remember that the Trial Chamber is an
22 instrument of justice to all concerned, not only to the
23 accused persons, who without doubt have the most
24 substantial interest in these proceedings, but also to
25 the victims, the witnesses and the international
1 community as a whole. In the pursuit of justice, the
2 Trial Chamber has to consider all those lawful avenues
3 through which a truthful picture of the events that
4 surround the present proceedings may be made known.
5 In deciding in favour of the Prosecution, the
6 Trial Chamber has sought to balance all these interests,
7 particularly the rights of the accused persons, the
8 duties of the Prosecution and its role as an instrument
9 of justice.
10 As I said, this is our interim decision. I think
11 this will enable us to clear the fog surrounding the
12 calling of additional witnesses.
13 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honour, there is a -- I do not know how
14 else to raise this but this way, if there is another way
15 I am pleased to be advised of it. There is an error in
16 the transcript that changes the meaning of the ruling
17 you just entered, your Honour. It is on page 3,
18 line 12, what appears in the transcript is "following
19 argument" and the words that your Honour said were
20 "barring agreement". This changes it quite
21 dramatically. "Following argument" should be
22 substituted with "barring agreement".
23 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Thank you very much. For the
24 Prosecution, where do we stand with you?
25 MR. NIEMANN: Your Honour, the next witness that the
1 Prosecution intends to call notified me first thing this
2 morning that he wanted certain protective measures in
3 relation to himself in order for him to give his
4 testimony. I might just say, your Honours, that this
5 issue was raised with this witness on a number of
6 occasions previously and up until this morning his
7 position has been that he did not need or require
8 protective measures, but since arriving at The Hague he
9 has changed his mind in relation to it.
10 Your Honours, I have questioned him about the
11 situation, and it does not seem -- the issues that
12 particularly concern him is publication outside of the
13 chamber, so he is concerned about the image of his face
14 being shown on television outside of the courtroom and
15 so in that respect, he has asked me to make an
16 application so that the image of his face can be
17 distorted on the television outlet that leaves the
19 The other matter that he has requested is that he
20 did not want to have his name published in newspapers
21 and the like. In relation to that, your Honour, that is
22 perhaps a more difficult matter because his name, of
23 course, has appeared publicly on witness lists and
24 certainly no attempt has been made up to this stage to
25 conceal that.
1 I have spoken to him about the issue, and have
2 covered with him the circumstances which cause him to
3 give rise to requesting me to make this application.
4 Your Honours, frankly this witness does not fall into
5 the usual category of witness that would more readily
6 justify the making of an order, especially the granting
7 of a pseudonym, but I should say, your Honours, that he
8 has presented himself as being a person under some
9 considerable stress that I have observed since he has
10 been here. He tells me your Honours -- he is 47 years
11 of age, he tells me that he has since been -- since the
12 war in 1992 he has had a heart attack, and he is at the
13 moment experiencing chest pains, but he still
14 nevertheless is willing to proceed. The position with
15 respect to the medication he is on is a bit ambiguous.
16 It seems he has been prescribed medication but he has
17 not been taking it. He tells me he did see a doctor two
18 weeks ago in relation to his chest pains and, as I said,
19 he is currently at the very moment that I spoke to him
20 before coming into the courtroom said that he is
21 suffering from chest pains but he does not feel that the
22 pains are sufficiently strong enough to prevent him from
23 giving evidence, but he has asked me that if they get
24 worse, can I raise the matter with the Chamber and
25 I have undertaken to him that I would do that.
1 Your Honours, I cannot make this application for
2 the distortion of the image and the suppression of his
3 name justifiably, I do not think, on the basis of any
4 fears that he may have where he lives, but it would
5 certainly, it seems to me, considerably relieve the
6 stress that he is presently under in terms of giving his
7 evidence now if he was to know that he was given these
8 protective measures. I have not had an opportunity to
9 raise this matter with the Defence. As I say, I found
10 out about it this morning just after nine o'clock when
11 I then went into a discussion with him about the
12 matter. I do formally apply for it, your Honours, and
13 I submit that if your Honours were inclined to grant
14 these measures, I think it would considerably assist in
15 the obtaining of the evidence that he is to present
16 before the chamber.
17 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: My greatest fear in this is the
18 impracticability of some aspects of the protective
19 measures, because if everything about him is already
20 known and is out, what is the use of a protective
21 measure now, except that of distorting his image?
22 MR. NIEMANN: Your Honours, I have brought that to his
23 attention and I cannot but agree with your Honour. His
24 name has been given to the Defence and I do not know how
25 much further or wider it has been circulated about
1 that. Certainly his image, as far as I am aware, has
2 not been made public. I have spoken to him and asked
3 him whether he has ever participated in interviews on
4 television and the like and he tells me he has not. He
5 says he has never spoken to any journalists or media
6 people in relation to what evidence he would give before
7 this chamber. To some extent, your Honours, I think
8 there is perhaps still room for protective measures and
9 that those measures could still have some effect so it
10 would not as such be a totally empty order but I cannot
11 but concede, your Honour, that if complete protection
12 was sought to be offered then it is far too late to
13 achieve that end.
14 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: If we are to grant the application, we
15 have to limit it to the possible aspects for which the
16 order can be made. The question of distorting his image
17 is the only thing that is outstanding.
18 MR. NIEMANN: I acknowledge that, your Honour.
19 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: If you consider the order that this
20 Trial Chamber can make.
21 MR. NIEMANN: I think the facial distortion would go a long
22 way, your Honour, to easing his concerns and I think he
23 would understand, your Honour, the position but that is
24 what he has asked me to do. I have raised the matter
25 and I cannot put it any higher than the fact that he is
1 a man who is under some stress. He is a man who would
2 appear to be -- appear to have a medical condition which
3 may in fact be exacerbated by public exposure of his
4 name and identification.
5 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: What is the Defence view about the
7 MS. RESIDOVIC: Your Honour, it is true, as we have
8 discussed several times so far, that each witness in
9 accordance with Rule 69 under special circumstances may
10 request protective measures. What I find strange is
11 that speaking about this trial as a public trial, which
12 should be accessible to all, to find ourselves in a
13 situation to discuss protective measures just before the
14 witness is due to appear in court, and I fear that this
15 could become a habit, and we might believe the claims of
16 the witnesses regarding the justification of protective
17 measures as a principle. That is why I would oppose
18 this kind of request for protective measures without, of
19 course, interfering with the right of the witness to
20 have such protective measures under special
22 The second point I should like to make is that my
23 learned colleague the Prosecutor has indicated the
24 reasons given by this witness. I do not know who could
25 take upon themselves the risk of his physical condition,
1 if it is true that this witness had a heart attack, and
2 he still has chest pains and we do not have the view of
3 a physician as regarding his capacity to testify, I fear
4 that we could witness certain medical problems of this
5 witness. It is true that this is just what the witness
6 has said as the Prosecutor has informed us, but being
7 laymen, one knows what chest pains mean for a heart
8 patient. Regardless of this, I would like to appeal to
9 you that our colleagues from the Prosecution, for the
10 sake of the full realisation of the right to Defence and
11 the preparation of the Defence, in addition to your
12 efforts for them to disclose the whole list of
13 witnesses, that they give us a precise list of witnesses
14 for next week so that what happened yesterday should not
15 happen again, and I am saying this only to take
16 advantage of this opportunity I have been given to speak
17 so as not to have to rise again. Thank you, your
19 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honours, two points that I would like to
20 make. First of all, I would like to commend my
21 colleague Mr. Niemann on the very candid way that this
22 matter was presented to the court this morning.
23 Secondly, I am also concerned about the health of this
24 witness. I also, and I think several of us here in the
25 room, have some knowledge of what chest pains can mean.
1 It seems to mean just out of an abundance of caution,
2 your Honour, that this witness ought to be examined by a
3 doctor, which could probably happen rather quickly, and
4 have us advised. He probably has no idea the stress
5 that might be involved with testimony in this room, and
6 we could get some advice on whether his condition is
7 such that he should not be subjected to that stress
8 today, or whether he should be given some medication or
9 something like that before we just run him in here and
10 put him under that stress and take the risk of him
11 falling out of his chair. None of us would want that to
12 happen, none of us would want to take any responsibility
13 for not having raised the matter and sought some way to
14 assure ourselves before we do that with this man that he
15 can testify safely in a healthy way. That is what
16 I would suggest. Thank you.
17 MR. GREAVES: Your Honours, I speak with some personal
18 experience. Many years ago, I was cross-examining a
19 defendant who had a heart attack in the dock. It is an
20 extremely distressing experience for everybody when that
21 happens. I would not want it to happen in this case.
22 It affects the way in which one approaches a
23 cross-examination of a witness. You are fearful if you
24 get really stuck into it, he is going to have a heart
25 attack. It is only fair to the Defence that we know
1 precisely what this man's condition is, particularly as
2 he appears to be negligent about taking his medicine,
3 according to the Prosecution. I would support my
4 learned friend Mr. Ackerman's suggestion.
5 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: I am grateful to the Defence for being
6 so concerned about the health and condition of a
7 Prosecution witness. If the Prosecution thinks that
8 their witness might not be able to stand the risk of
9 examination and cross-examination, I suppose they should
10 tell us now, if you are confident or can see any reasons
11 why he would not.
12 MR. NIEMANN: I find myself in agreement with what the
13 Defence is saying here. I am in no position to make any
14 judgment in terms of his medical condition, I can only
15 relate to you what he has told me. I have no idea
16 whether or not he is in a position to withstand
17 cross-examination or evidence-in-chief or whatever.
18 I do apprehend that we could perhaps have him medically
19 examined very quickly and I could see the value in
20 that. It certainly would, I think, make us all more at
21 ease if we had a medical opinion to the effect that he
22 was in fact in a position ready to enter the witness box
23 and that his medical condition was such that he could do
24 that. Certainly, your Honours, we have not had much of
25 an opportunity to be with this witness, he arrived
1 yesterday, and it was not expected he would have been
2 called this week. Generally these things develop during
3 the period of time the witnesses are here and medical
4 attention and so forth can be rendered to them. But
5 having regard to the very short period of time that he
6 has been here, that opportunity has not presented
7 itself, and indeed he did not inform us of that
8 position, I understand, until -- he did not tell me at
9 least until this morning and I understand he did not
10 tell anyone in the Witness and Victims Unit until last
11 night. It seems to me, your Honours, that we could
12 probably have him medically examined by a doctor and
13 I would endeavour to see if we could do that as
14 expeditiously as possible and then if we did receive a
15 green light, as it were, for him to go ahead then that
16 may -- that would permit us to proceed today and it may
17 also assist your Honours in making any determination
18 with respect to the application I have made as well.
19 I am in your Honours' hands. I can only report to
20 your Honours that he has said to me that he is willing
21 to proceed. He is in the witness room ready to go now,
22 so that is the position I am in, but I am afraid I can
23 give no advice on the question of his state of health.
24 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: The possibility of offering protection is
25 to keep the witness at ease as much as possible and to
1 enable him to give his evidence, to absent all the other
2 fears which he had before now. This appears to be a
3 more precipitate one, where he is even having pains
4 already. I think I would prefer him to be examined
5 first before we will be able to determine whether we can
6 take him, and I suppose an examination would enable the
7 doctors to prescribe suitable medication which might
8 carry him through.
9 With the confidence that the Trial Chamber and the
10 Prosecution is so interested in his health, perhaps much
11 of his fears might be allayed and he might feel better
12 to give evidence. I think we might rise for some time.
13 Do you know how soon you will be able to get this done
14 so we know when to come back? If you have a substitute
16 MR. NIEMANN: I am afraid we do not. Your Honours, we will
17 undertake to keep both the Defence and your Honours'
18 clerk notified about progress in this matter. If all
19 goes well, hopefully we will be able to proceed this
20 morning, late this morning some time, if we are able to
21 get a medical practitioner to look at him in that time.
22 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: The Trial Chamber will rise and wait
23 for the results.
24 (10.35 am)
25 (Adjourned until 2.30 pm)
1 (2.30 pm)
2 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: How do we stand with you, Mr. Niemann?
3 MR. NIEMANN: Thank you, your Honours. Your Honours, the
4 witness has now been examined by a Dutch medical
5 practitioner, and the results of the examination are
6 that the condition or pain that he was suffering this
7 morning is not as a consequence of his heart at all, and
8 that the doctor is of the opinion that there is no
9 reason why he should not proceed to give his testimony
10 in court and the doctor is of the opinion that there is
11 no fear of any consequences so far as his heart is
12 concerned from proceeding to testify.
13 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: That is very good.
14 MR. NIEMANN: Your Honour, I have spoken to the witness in
15 light of the finding of the doctor and asked him whether
16 he still wished me to pursue his request for protective
17 measures. He still tells me that he does wish me to
18 pursue that, but I have nothing further that I can add
19 in relation to what I said this morning about that, your
21 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: We understand it and we can only give
22 him the limited type of protection which his situation
23 deserves. I think that is all we can do.
24 MR. NIEMANN: If your Honours please. Might I raise a matter
25 with your Honours? If your Honours decide he should be
1 referred to by a pseudonym, or have your Honours decided
2 that his image should be distorted?
3 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: I really do not see the value of a
5 MR. NIEMANN: That is as I understood you.
6 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: His name has been advertised
7 sufficiently if anyone wanted to know.
8 BRANKO SUDAR (sworn)
9 Examined by MR. NIEMANN
10 Q. Sir, the court has granted to you certain measures with
11 respect to the distortion of the image of your face when
12 it is broadcast on the television. Do you understand
14 A. Yes, I do.
15 Q. Would you please state your full name?
16 A. Branko Sudar.
17 Q. Where were you born?
18 A. I was born in Cerici, Konjic on November 4th 1949.
19 Q. Did you attend your education, did you receive your
20 education in that town?
21 A. Yes, I completed my school there, I was a skilled driver
22 and obtained my highly skilled driving qualifications
24 Q. What is your ethnic background?
25 A. Ethnic background, I am a Serb.
1 Q. So where were you living at the beginning of 1992?
2 A. I was living in my house down at Cerici in Konjic.
3 Q. What was your employment at that time, at the beginning
4 of 1992?
5 A. I was employed from 1968 with Sipad enterprise, Konjic,
6 until the war broke out.
7 Q. Sipad Enterprises, what is the nature of the work that
8 that organisation carries on?
9 A. Forestry and timber and I myself was in the
10 transportation department.
11 Q. Mr. Sudar, could you move closer to the microphone
12 please? You cannot be heard sitting back that far.
13 Sir, can you tell me the ethnic background of the
14 majority of the citizens who resided in the village of
16 A. The majority of the people living in Cerici were Serbs
17 by nationality.
18 Q. Are you married?
19 A. Yes, I am married.
20 Q. In early 1992, did you have occasion to leave Cerici
21 with your wife?
22 A. Yes, I had occasion in the beginning of 1992, I felt the
23 presence of some armies in Cerici. They came there,
24 they killed. I noticed that something was very wrong,
25 so I took my wife and children and transferred them to
1 Montenegro. Then I returned home to Cerici, then I saw
2 lots of unknown soldiers roaming through the city, HVO
3 people in black uniforms and some others wearing some
4 berets and fezes on their heads, unknown troops to me.
5 Then I again tried to transfer my wife and children away
6 to get them away, but I could not pass through the city
7 because I was stopped so we came back home to Cerici.
8 Q. When you saw these troops in and around Cerici, what
9 time was that, about what period was that, in terms of
10 the month of the year?
11 A. That was in April, at the beginning of April or
12 thereabouts, I was in the city and I noticed these
13 things, I noticed right away that something was wrong so
14 I took the measures which I described to get my children
15 and my wife away to Serbia.
16 Q. Did you then return --
17 A. She joined her parents in Serbia.
18 Q. Did you then return to Cerici?
19 A. Yes, I then returned to Cerici and I was there.
20 Q. In May 1992, did you observe certain military activities
21 going on in and around the town of Cerici?
22 A. In Cerici, I was there -- a neighbour of mine Vlado
23 Draganic went to town and he was locked up somewhere in
24 town in a motel and was beaten up there. He returned
25 all black and blue home and then I thought to myself
1 that things were really hard and I had to do something.
2 Q. So what did you do?
3 A. I was at home on 20th May in my garden, watering the
4 peppers. I heard some shots, then I saw some army, some
5 soldiers exercising on the sports ground and I went up
6 to my old man, to his house, to see what was happening
8 Q. Did you recognise who these forces were that you saw
9 exercising on the ground?
10 A. They wore all sorts of uniforms, how shall I describe
11 them? To tell you the truth, I did not dare go to the
12 town, but those people who had seen them from close say
13 they were some unknown troops there and we did not dare
14 go out.
15 Q. What was the next thing to happen to you in relation to
16 this military activity?
17 A. And another thing, we were in Cerici with my father and
18 my mother and I saw people from Bjelasnica which is
19 another village near to Cerici and from another place
20 called Sudar Potok they also escaped to Cerici. All the
21 villagers from those surrounding villages had fled to
23 Q. So these people appeared to be refugees?
24 A. They were mostly refugees, they were fleeing from their
25 homes. Everybody was fleeing to this creek to hide to
1 get away from the bullets and from the unknown troops
2 that had attacked from the city. I do not know who they
3 were, but mostly they wore berets, people from
4 Bjelasnica were also attacked and from that direction,
5 so that all the people had to flee, to hide.
6 Q. How long did the attack go on for, can you remember?
7 A. The attack went on somewhere from 20th May it started
8 and 21st there was shelling and I heard that Jovo
9 Gotovac had been killed in the shelling, also Uros
10 Djurica or rather Djurica Uros was wounded and somebody
11 transferred him into town and he died there, I do not
12 know the details. So women and children started crying
13 and they were fearful and in the meantime, Rajko Cecez,
14 Mirko Cecez and Slobodan Draganic called up the
15 President of the municipality.
16 Q. Were you there when the call was made?
17 A. I was there, I was outside because the only telephone
18 that was working was at my father's, because before the
19 attack all the lines of the Serbs had been cut and there
20 was no communication and this was the only telephone
21 that was still working. Why and how I really do not
22 know. Then they called up the President of the
23 municipality, they spoke to him nicely. They said that
24 the people were not to blame, that the attacks should
25 stop and the man promised, and there was no more
1 shooting. They said that we should go down to the river
2 to Ugostica and come to some kind of an agreement.
3 Q. Did you then proceed to go down to the river?
4 A. On 22nd May, we gathered there, there were about 20 of
5 us from Cerici, my neighbours, there were two or three
6 people from about Bjelasnica. We crossed the bridge at
7 the river and we thought that the President of the
8 municipality would come there as he had promised. In
9 the meantime, people ran out of the woods shouting
10 "hands up" and to which all had to raise up our hands,
11 they started beating us there.
12 Q. If we just stop for a moment. Just slow down, if you
13 could, for me, Mr. Sudar, please this all has to be
14 translated. If you could just take it a little bit more
15 slowly, please.
16 When you were told to go down to the river with
17 that group of people, were you also given any
18 instructions with respect to anything that you had to
19 take with you?
20 A. Yes, the President said very nicely "anyone who has any
21 weapons should carry them along and bring them there",
22 and the people who had anything, they did bring those
23 weapons along. However, they took them away. They took
24 our belts and coats and whatever we had on and then they
25 started beating us.
1 Q. The people that took these things away from you, did you
2 know who they were?
3 A. I did, because -- I think his first name is Masic, he is
4 the one who took my purse, my driving licence, I had 200
5 marks and the last salary I had received in my company,
6 he took all that away from me, he took off my belt and
7 anything else I had.
8 Q. This gentleman by the name of Masic, do you know his
9 ethnic background, the one that took the things away
10 from you?
11 A. He is by nationality a Muslim.
12 Q. You said apart from having the things taken off you, you
13 were also beaten. Do you know who it was that beat you
14 at that place?
15 A. Macic, he had gloves on his hands, like some kind of
16 special boxing gloves, and they beat us with rifles,
17 with whatever they could get their hands on, people were
18 dropping from the blows, falling down on the sand, on
19 the rails, some people lost consciousness and when we
20 came to, we all had to get up again and then in the
21 direction of Celebici, the military facility there, we
22 had to go across the bridge with two or three guards and
23 we had to go in front of them up to that military
24 facility and the tunnel there.
25 Q. How far is it approximately from that place by the river
1 where you surrendered and the camp at Celebici? What is
2 the distance from the bridge where you were beaten to
3 the camp at Celebici, approximately?
4 A. Roughly I think it can be about three kilometres,
5 something like that.
6 Q. How did you get from the bridge to Celebici?
7 A. From the bridge to Celebici we reached the gates where
8 the camp was on foot, we went on foot, with two or three
9 of these soldiers of theirs who had their guns pointed
10 at us and they led us to that spot.
11 Q. Approximately, if you can remember, how many soldiers
12 were involved in capturing you and the people that were
13 with you that went to that bridge site on that day?
14 A. To tell you the truth, the attack came from all around,
15 from Konjic, from the other side, from Bjelasnica, from
16 Pokojiste and there were even snipers used. My house
17 was under fire, you could not escape the snipers.
18 Q. From what you were able to observe of the attack on
19 Cerici, did you see anybody returning fire from the town
20 out of Cerici towards the people who were attacking?
21 A. I could not notice anything because Vros Djurica and I,
22 we were in the village, Slobodan Draganic also, there
23 was firing at about Bjelasnica, at Donje Selo, that is
24 2.5 or 3 kilometres away from me, so we could not see
25 anything. I really cannot answer that question.
1 Q. Did you know whether or not the Serb military forces
2 were anywhere in the vicinity at the time of this
4 A. In our opinion, there were no Serb military forces.
5 There may have been about 30 people in Cerici and some
6 people had fled from about Bjelasnica. According to
7 them, about 2,000 of them had attacked but even if we
8 had defended ourself, there would not have been more
9 than 150 of us able bodied men.
10 Q. Of the 150 able bodied men that you have spoken of, were
11 any of them engaged in defending the village of Cerici?
12 A. I think not. Everybody was fleeing, all the population
13 of about Bjelasnica, Donje Selo fled down to the stream,
14 so I really cannot give you any better answer.
15 Q. You mentioned a moment ago in your evidence how you were
16 taken some 2 to 3 kilometres from the bridge to the
17 military camp at Celebici. Can you tell the court what
18 happened when you arrived at the camp at Celebici?
19 A. When we arrived at the Celebici camp, we passed the
20 entrance to the gates and then we all had to line up
21 against the wall to put our hands behind our heads and
22 our group consisted of some 20 men. We stood there,
23 there were some women up there too and some children,
24 they were crying out "kill the Chetniks, what are you
25 doing with them, beat them". Then they beat us, we fell
1 down from the blows, we would fall on the concrete, then
2 we would have to get up again almost until the evening.
3 Q. Can you tell the court approximately what time it was in
4 the day when you arrived at the Celebici camp?
5 A. I think it was about 1 or 2 o'clock, I really cannot
6 remember exactly, but it was afternoon, between noon and
7 3 pm. I cannot tell you exactly.
8 Q. Did you recognise any of the people that were
9 administering these beatings to you?
10 A. At that point in time there was some young men that
11 I could not really recognise. They were calling out
12 somebody by the name of Sok. We did not dare turn
13 around, we were facing the wall. We did not know what
14 was hitting you.
15 Q. Do you know what you were being beaten with on that
16 occasion when you arrived at the camp?
17 A. With rifles, with planks, with shovels, with all kinds
18 of things. As far as I could see there were some
19 baseball bats, too.
20 Q. After this beating had taken place, what happened to you
22 A. After we had been beaten up, we were taken to the
23 hangar. I later learnt it was called number 22. It was
24 about 5 or 6 metres wide, 10 or so long, I cannot tell
25 exactly because I really did not see it properly.
1 I really cannot estimate the size, so we entered the
2 hangar number 22. When we entered we saw somebody who
3 had worked in the court, Danilo Zivak sitting in the
4 corner, there were some other men there but I cannot
5 remember their names. I saw Babic Slobodan, he was on
6 the floor with his hands up. He was covered in blood,
7 he was not quite conscious and then we spent the time
8 there until evening and when night fell. They started
9 to blindfold us and two of them would take each one of
10 us somewhere, to some kind of a court. You had to make
11 some kind of a statement with your eyes tied. They
12 would beat us, hit us, so all 20 of us had to go to this
13 some kind of a judge blindfolded.
14 Q. You said you were beaten. Were you beaten at the time
15 when you were interrogated, or were you beaten either
16 going to or coming from it?
17 A. I cannot remember exactly, I think I was beaten --
18 I know they hit me in the eye, I cannot remember
19 exactly, but my eye was closed. I could not see,
20 I could not see for 20 days through that eye. I cannot
21 remember all the details. After all, five years has
22 gone by, but I think it was when we were going out, as
23 far as I can remember, but I cannot be 100 per cent
24 sure, but I know somewhere around the doors that they
25 beat me.
1 Q. When you were interrogated, what was it they were asking
3 A. They asked us whether we were Serbs, whether we were
4 members of the SDS, all kinds of things, where we came
5 from, what our names were, what we had, all kinds of
6 questions they were asking. So you really do not even
7 know what they are asking because we were all in some
8 kind of a state of shock and we suffered from the
9 beating. Then two men would take you there to the
11 Q. I may have asked you this question, but can you tell us
12 the date it was that you first went to Celebici camp, if
13 you can remember?
14 A. We were taken to the Celebici camp on 22nd May, and then
15 we stayed there until about 10 or 11 at night and we
16 were beaten. Two of them may have stayed behind. Then
17 I heard from somebody they were saying: "Pavo Mucic is
18 coming so do not beat them any more", so they did not
19 beat the last two. In the meantime they said half of us
20 should get ready to go to Musala, Konjic. Half of them
21 left, then I stayed behind. Then when the van came a
22 second time, the rest of us got in and we were driven to
23 the sports hall in Konjic known as Musala.
24 Q. Did you know who it was that said that you would be
25 going, to prepare yourself to go to the Musala sports
2 A. I cannot remember exactly now. I really cannot remember
3 who said it. Somebody said it outside and in all that
4 pain and suffering, some people were dragging their
5 feet, we climbed up. We did not even know where we were
6 going or how we were going. We did not really know what
7 was happening to us.
8 Q. Did you arrive at the Musala sports hall that night?
9 A. We arrived that night in the sports hall. We found some
10 people there too. How they got there I do not know.
11 They threw us into the cloakrooms, the locker rooms
12 where children change for gym, and we slept in class
13 rooms about 22, 24 of us, and the room was something
14 like 2.5 by 4 metres. There were one or two chairs and
15 we all lay on the floor. Then for about two or three
16 days they did not give us any food, then later on they
17 would give us a piece of bread. Also they hardly gave
18 us any water.
19 Q. Do you know who "they" are? You keep referring to
20 "they". Who was it who did not give you any food and
21 kept you locked up?
22 A. I am thinking of the soldiers, the soldiers who had
23 beaten us. I assumed -- I saw a taxi driver there,
24 Habibija they called him. Then there was Jeleskovic, he
25 was there too, I think they called him Muf, then
1 Halic -- they were Muslims, predominantly Muslims.
2 There were one or two Croats, I do not know their names.
3 Q. How long did you stay at the sports hall, Musala sports
5 A. I stayed there for about 20 days. Again, I cannot
6 remember exactly the number of days. In the meantime,
7 one evening towards night fall, Hazim Delic came, told
8 me to get up, asked me where I came from. Actually he
9 called out five or six of us, "get ready", he said, and
10 we did and we climbed on to a van without knowing where
11 we were going. Then he sat there with the driver, there
12 was another one with him. They took us to Celebici.
13 Afterwards I realised that it was a camp and they put us
14 in the hangar known as number 6.
15 Q. You said that Hazim Delic came. Did he call you out --
16 A. No, Hazim Delic, not Delalic.
17 Q. If I said that, I am sorry. I certainly meant to say
18 Hazim Delic. You said Hazim Delic called out the
19 names. Did he call out your name?
20 A. He called out my name and a group of five or six of us,
21 we had to get into the van and he took us to Celebici.
22 When I got to Celebici, they threw us into the hangar on
23 the concrete floor, I was placed near the door. He said
24 "lie there".
25 Q. Who said lie there?
1 A. Delic when he brought me there.
2 Q. When you say the hangar, did you know what number hangar
3 that was?
4 A. They called it number 6.
5 Q. This person Hazim Delic, had you ever seen or met this
6 person before?
7 A. I know Hazim Delic, I worked with him. I never had any
8 problems with him, I really do not know what happened.
9 We never had any quarrels or disputes.
10 Q. How long had you worked with Hazim Delic?
11 A. I was in this enterprise since 1968. He came later.
12 I think we must have worked together for more than 10
14 Q. This is Sipad Enterprises, is it?
15 A. Sipad Prenj Konjic.
16 Q. You say that Mr. Delic worked there?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Would you see him at work from time to time?
19 A. From time to time I would see him at work, but more
20 recently just before this war, I do not know maybe he
21 took unpaid leave, but I did not see him for two or
22 three months. Where he went, I do not know.
23 Q. This is two or three months before the war started in
25 A. Yes, I think the end of 1991 and beginning of 1992,
1 something like that, during the winter, that winter.
2 Q. Did you know what sort of work Mr. Delic used to do when
3 he was at the factory -- at the business that you worked
5 A. Delic, in Sipad Prenj, he was a metal worker. He worked
6 in the transport department.
7 Q. Did you know any members of Mr. Delic's family?
8 A. I do, I know his father, his wife. I just do not know
9 his children.
10 Q. What was his father's name, can you remember?
11 A. His father's name is Ibro, he worked in the carpentry,
12 in the building enterprise. I would see this man.
13 Q. Is that the same business for whom you worked?
14 A. It was called the Nerveta company, then he was
15 transferred, I think, to a company called Izgradnja
16 Construction Work, but I would see him.
17 Q. Do you know the village that Hazim Delic came from?
18 A. He lived in Orahovica, a neighbouring village across the
19 lake from me.
20 Q. Approximately how far is that village from Konjic?
21 A. I think about four to five kilometres, about five,
22 something like that. That is my estimate.
23 Q. Before the war, apart from working in the same business
24 that you worked for, do you know whether Mr. Delic had
25 any private businesses that he was running at the time;
1 this is prior to the war?
2 A. His father or he or his sister, they had opened some
3 kind of a shop, a souvenir shop in town. They were
4 selling something, books or something like that. I did
5 not go to that shop actually. I would pass by, I never
6 entered it.
7 Q. Just going back to the time when you say Mr. Delic put
8 you into hangar number 6, when you went into that hangar
9 was there anyone inside the hangar at the time when you
11 A. When I entered the hangar there were about 250 to 300
12 people, something like that, at least 250, I think.
13 I was sitting just next to the door, in the second
14 line from the door.
15 Q. Did you stay in this place, the second line -- did you
16 stay in this same place in the second line for the whole
17 period of time that you were in Celebici camp, or did
18 you move from place to place?
19 A. No, I did not move. Where they put me, I stayed there
20 all the time until I was transferred again, and I went
21 to be exchanged.
22 Q. Can you describe what the conditions were like inside
23 the hangar?
24 A. The conditions in the hangar were terrible. We all
25 slept on the concrete floor. The food, one day there
1 would be some, the next there would not. When bread
2 arrived, a loaf would be cut up into 15, 16 even 17
3 slices and we would get a slice in the morning and at
4 night. They would give us a spoonful of water, a
5 ladleful. Also the door was kept shut, there was no
6 air, we were so crammed we could not breath. It was
7 impossible to live under those conditions. Then the
8 toilet; at night, there was some kind of a bucket that
9 we had to use for those purposes. In the daytime we
10 would go out. There was a kind of hole behind the
11 hangar and when they felt like it they would let us use
12 it, so that as far as the hangar is concerned. It was
13 awful. It was dirty. There was dust. Later some
14 people fell ill, somebody called Jovak, then there were
15 lice. Zenga would take a dog and walk around with this
16 dog, he and Osman Dedic. I do not know all the surnames
17 of these guards. I just know some of the first names.
18 They would take a dog, but fortunately the dog did not
19 jump on us, nor did he bite us, but that is what he did.
20 Q. You said that sometimes you were allowed to leave the
21 hangar to go to a toilet outside during the day. Were
22 there times when you were prevented from going to the
23 toilet outside during the day?
24 A. Sometimes we were prohibited, so we had to do our best
25 without and when we went to pee then there would be 10
1 to 15 of us in a line. Delic would come and he would
2 order us to form a line "go to urinate". Then we would
3 go and then we would have to come back, we would have to
4 run back. Sometimes people did not even have time to do
5 it and the time was very limited. He would rush us.
6 But sometimes they would let us go of our own, just
7 behind the hangar, the guards were there. There was
8 also a trench there, sometimes we would be taken to the
10 Q. Were people ever beaten or interfered with when they
11 went to the toilet by the guards?
12 A. The guards beat us to tell you the truth. They beat
13 us -- it depended. Sometimes somebody would go out and
14 get hit, someone else would not get hit. It all
16 Q. From the place where you were seated in the hangar,
17 where were you in relation to the doorway?
18 A. I was close to the doorway, facing it with my back, but
19 sometimes I could look around because mostly we had to
20 sit with our hands on our knees crouching. That is how
21 we had to sit. When anyone appeared we had to bend our
22 heads down and sit in that position.
23 Q. When the door of the hangar was opened, were you able to
24 see outside and see what was happening outside during
25 the day?
1 A. When the door was open I could see the guards, the
2 troops passing by, soldiers passing by.
3 Q. When the door was closed was it possible for you to hear
4 sounds outside of the hangar?
5 A. When the door was closed, every blow or when someone was
6 taken out, we could hear everything. It is easy to hear
7 the beating, the cries, the screams, the pleas for
8 mercy. You could hear the voices.
9 Q. I now want you to have a look at this model that appears
10 in front of you and I would ask you to get up from your
11 seat, but just wait until I give you the instructions
12 because you have to have the headphones. I would ask
13 you to rise from your seat -- you need to make sure that
14 you stay behind the screen when you stand up and walk
15 round, but I would like you to walk round the front of
16 the model, look at it closely if you would and see if
17 you can identify it and tell me where it is in that
18 model, if you can, that hangar number 9 was -- hangar
19 number 6 was that you were detained in. Perhaps if you
20 just stand behind it, I understand you cannot walk
21 around without being seen. If you can identify it from
22 that position.
23 A. That is number 6 (indicates) the first building here,
24 the hangar.
25 Q. I think we will have to make do with that, because you
1 cannot walk to the front apparently.
2 During the time that you were detained in Celebici
3 camp, did you lose any weight?
4 A. I lost about 35 to 30 -- 25 to 30 kilograms.
5 Q. You spoke earlier of Mr. Hazim Delic, and you were able
6 to tell me some particulars about him and about his
7 family. Did you come to find out what position he held
8 in the camp at Celebici?
9 A. As far as I heard from what the guards were saying,
10 Delic was the deputy warden.
11 Q. How did the guards treat him in terms of their
12 relationship with him?
13 A. Well, sometimes he criticised severely the guards and
14 shouted at them just as he shouted at us, and then we
15 noticed when Pavo was absent, he was the one in charge,
16 the one who gave the orders.
17 Q. You mentioned the name Pavo. Is that some sort of a
19 A. Yes, that is his nickname as far as I know.
20 Q. When you say his nickname, who do you mean by him?
21 A. Pavo -- I mean Mucic.
22 Q. Did you know Mr. Mucic before the war?
23 A. No, I did not know him before the war. I was in a
24 village visiting a colleague of mine, also a driver and
25 that is when I saw him once. We had coffee. Before
1 that, I might have seen him, but I had no contact with
3 Q. When I use the word "know", what I am asking you is had
4 you ever had occasion to meet him or see him prior to
5 the war?
6 A. Prior to the war, as I said, I occasionally saw him in
7 the street, but we did not "meet". He worked elsewhere
8 and I only stayed at Igman seldom. I might have seen
9 him, I saw him occasionally. I did not know what his
10 name was. I only learnt later.
11 Q. When did you learn later what his name was?
12 A. When I was with the Montenegran he introduced himself as
13 Mucic and that is how I learnt of his name.
14 Q. Can you tell us some details about this meeting that you
15 had with the Montenegran and how it is that you met
16 Mr. Mucic?
17 A. He came to this village, we met there and we were there
19 Q. The Montenegran that you have referred to, was he in any
20 way related or connected to Mr. Mucic so far as you knew?
21 A. This Montenegran was a colleague of mine, and another
22 taxi driver, also a Montenegran, came and I learnt that
23 he was Pavo's brother-in-law, that Olga, Pavo's sister,
24 was married to him and I learnt then that they called
25 him Pavo, and that is when I got introduced to him.
1 I did not know. I had not known him before.
2 Q. When you say "introduced to him", who do you mean?
3 Introduced to who?
4 A. What I actually mean, I was sitting there and he came
5 there and then he introduced himself.
6 Q. Who is he, could you tell us the name?
7 A. Zdravko Mucic.
8 Q. Can you tell us approximately, you may not remember very
9 precisely, but approximately either the year that this
10 meeting took place, or if you cannot tell us that, can
11 you tell us approximately how many years before the war
12 it was that you met Mr. Mucic?
13 A. I think that it was somewhere around half of 1991.
14 Q. Did you know any of the family members or people related
15 to Mr. Mucic?
16 A. They lived in the city, I had heard about Janko, his
17 brother, that he was also working at Igman, but I had
18 virtually no contacts with him. I only had heard that
19 he had a brother by the name of Janko and a father.
20 I did not have much contact. Once I took timber up and
21 there was a house of a Muslim and someone showed it to
22 me and told me "this is Janko". That is all I know,
23 nothing more.
24 Q. When you say they lived in the city, what city are you
25 referring to?
1 A. Above the military installation, military factory at
2 Igman, that section of the city.
3 Q. Do you know where Mr. Mucic worked just prior to the war?
4 A. As far as I know, he was in Austria.
5 Q. Do you know what position Mr. Mucic had at the camp?
6 What was his position?
7 A. How shall I put it? He used to come and when he came
8 they would say that he was the warden. I do not know
9 what his function was, but they would say "here comes
10 the warden, here comes the commander". So I saw him
11 three or four times coming to the entrance, and once he
12 called out some names of people to be transferred from
13 hangar number 6 to the sports hall, but while he was
14 there, whenever we saw him, we were not exactly
15 maltreated. We were not taken out to be beaten, at
16 least while I was there, but mostly when he was not
17 there, that was the case.
18 Q. Did you ever see Mr. Mucic enter hangar number 6?
19 A. Yes, he would enter the hangar. He would come on a
20 motorbike, but when he was there, when he came we were
21 not maltreated and soldiers would come inside. All
22 sorts of soldiers and troops would come inside, they
23 would come to the door, take a walk, return.
24 Q. Did you know any of the other guards that were working
25 in the Celebici camp during the time that you were being
1 detained in hangar number 6?
2 A. As for other guards, to tell you the truth, I did not
3 know them. Zenga was there, but I did not know him.
4 I might have seen him before as a child, but I did not
5 know him. There was Osman, Kemo, there was a certain
6 Focak, a policeman, there was a man from Bjela who
7 I knew but I have now forgotten his name, he only came
8 later. It eludes me, I cannot recall it right now.
9 Q. The person you referred to as Zenga, did you know what
10 his surname was?
11 A. Surname is Landzo, they called him Zenga and Landzo.
12 I do not exactly know what his first name is. I am not
13 sure of the first name.
14 Q. Did you know of Mr. Landzo or members of his family prior
15 to the war?
16 A. I knew more of his family than of him. I knew his
17 father but I was not in much contact with him. I knew
18 his relatives, some of them were working in the saw mill
19 and two of his father's brothers in Sipad in the timber
20 at the present time.
21 Q. Do you know the names of any members of his family, his
22 father's brothers, anyone like that?
23 A. I know his uncle Omer, I believe as far as I can recall
24 that Omer is his name. I have forgotten all these
25 things, I used to know them all. I have forgotten a
1 lot. Nurko is his name, he worked at a saw mill, one of
2 the uncles, he worked at the saw mill, as I said.
3 Q. Was there anything about Zenga that you can recall as
4 something that you could identify him by when he was in
5 the camp?
6 A. To tell you the truth, I do not know by what, by his
7 appearance, he was small built. He was not tall,
8 so-so. He had a thin voice.
9 Q. When you say a thin voice, what do you mean by that?
10 A. High pitched voice when he shouted at us.
11 Q. How were you treated in the camp by Hazim Delic and
12 Zenga Landzo?
13 A. Hazim Delic would provoke me, ask me questions, where
14 I worked, how had I worked, where did I come from. He
15 would take me out then hit me and then afterwards he
16 would give me a cigarette.
17 Q. What about Mr. Landzo?
18 A. Landzo also once -- when I asked to go outside to the
19 latrine he hit me in front of the door, he would not let
20 me go and eventually when he did let me go, when
21 I returned he hit me with a baseball bat.
22 Q. While you were being detained inside hangar number 6,
23 did you know of a prisoner by the name of Scepo Gotovac?
24 A. Scepo Gotovac, yes, I knew this elderly man from about
25 Bjelasnica. He sometimes lived in town and sometimes in
1 about Bjelasnica. He came, he was brought, once he
2 stood by the door. That day Delic came he had a note in
3 his hand and he asked who is Scepo Gotovac. The man
4 answered "I am" and he said to him, "get up". When the
5 man got up he hit him several times, five or six
6 perhaps. I cannot remember exactly, but I do know that
7 he hit him several times. The man fell down and
8 starting crying out. Then they took him out. They
9 continued to beat him. I could hear Zenga's voice. It
10 was Zenga actually who called him out and then I could
11 also subsequently hear his voice. Then we heard some
12 water being poured on him, then they threw him inside
13 through the door, wet as he was. I do not remember
14 exactly who it had been, Zivak or somebody else who had
15 to pull him inside.
16 Q. Who were you referring to when you said "they took him
17 out", that you could recognise their voices?
18 A. As I said, Zenga and Delic took him out. Delic was
19 there, he called him out. He told him to come out and
20 then Zenga, and Zenga's voice could be heard then, and
21 also when he was being beaten, Zenga was shouting at him
22 "how many Muslims have you killed", and Delic told
23 Scepo Gotovac that as a Chetnik he had killed two
24 Muslims in the war before that. They ask him again "how
25 many did you kill" and he screamed and cried out for
1 mercy, calling his mother's name and he was in terrible
2 suffering. They beat him, again Zenga took him out
3 again and beat him again. We could hear his voice.
4 They would shut the door when they beat someone. You
5 could only hear the voices outside. Then they threw him
6 inside again. Afterwards in the morning he actually
7 succumbed and you could hear no more cries, no more
8 screams. He was silent and somebody said "Scepo is
9 dead" and I did not want to look because I could never
10 look at a dead man.
11 Q. What condition was he in when they returned him to the
12 hangar after the beating?
13 A. How to put it -- he just lay there crumpled on the
14 floor, crumpled and screaming, crying, moaning.
15 Q. Did you notice anything about his head at the time when
16 he was returned?
17 A. Zenga had hit him in the head. To tell you the truth,
18 I did not like to look. I just could not bring myself
19 to look at a dead man, but there was something wrong
20 with his head.
21 Q. You say he succumbed the next morning. Did you actually
22 look at him the next morning at all?
23 A. As I told you, to tell you the truth I just could not
24 bring myself to look at him. Some people took him out.
25 I was unable to bring myself to cover him. I think some
1 other people covered him a bit. I could not bring
2 myself to look at the dead man.
3 Q. Did you at any stage look at him? You say he was a dead
4 man, how did you know that?
5 A. He just lay there, he stopped moaning, and there were no
6 signs or any sounds coming from him, so I concluded that
7 he was dead.
8 Q. Are you able to do assist the court by telling us
9 approximately the age, approximately the age of Scepo
11 A. I am not quite sure, I think that he was born somewhere
12 in 1920, I am not quite sure, perhaps he was a bit older
13 than that, but I think so, about 1920 was the year in
14 which he was born.
15 Q. Do you happen to know what ethnic group Scepo Gotovac
17 A. Scepo was a Serb.
18 Q. Again during the period of time that you were detained
19 in hangar number 6, did you know of a prisoner by the
20 name of Simo Jovanovic?
21 A. I heard of Simo Jovanovic, he was some kind of a
22 director. He had a fish pond up there at Njeba. We
23 were not exactly very close, I had only heard of the
24 man. He lay from across from where I was lying, leaning
25 against a wall, they also took him out many times.
1 There were also some neighbours of his there who would
2 tell him "would you like some fish" and I am not sure,
3 I do not know all these men. I only knew and heard that
4 they were his neighbours and it was them who took him
5 out repeatedly and beat him. The last several times
6 they also poured water on him.
7 Q. When you say these neighbours took him out, were these
8 neighbours guards in the camp?
9 A. Zenga and Cosic and some other guys and Subasic, I just
10 now remembered, I found out their names later. I really
11 did not know them well, they are younger men. I only
12 learnt later it was them who had called out to him
13 "would you like some fish" and when they did that, they
14 also beat him.
15 Q. Could you hear what was happening to him outside of the
17 A. I heard Zenga's voice outside the hangar. I saw him and
18 other voices shouting -- you can hear the sound of
19 beating. You can hear the sound of a stick landing on a
20 body, and I really had to put my fingers in my ears not
21 to hear that and not to hear the water hose.
22 Q. The last time that Mr. Jovanovic was taken out and
23 beaten, can you recall approximately how long this
24 beating lasted?
25 A. They would take him out for 20 minutes at a time or 15
1 minutes, I cannot exactly recall how many minutes they
2 would keep him outside, but they would keep beating him
3 until he fainted and then they would just throw him
4 inside in that condition.
5 Q. On the last occasion he was taken out, did you see who
6 it was that returned him to the hangar?
7 A. I cannot recall exactly and I cannot say if I cannot
8 recall exactly. I think he was only actually pushed
9 inside through the door and I could hear the voices
10 outside. I could not see exactly. Then you were not
11 allowed to look towards the door when it opened because
12 you would also get hit if you looked at the door. If
13 you could just furtively glance at the door you could
14 see who it was, but you could not always.
15 Q. You said you could only hear what was going on outside.
16 Did you recognise any of the voices on this last
17 occasion that Mr. Jovanovic was beaten, of the guards
18 that were outside?
19 A. I heard Zenga's voice and I could hear Delic was giving
20 the orders and I could hear his voice out there.
21 Sometimes he would say "enough, stop".
22 Q. When you say sometimes he would say "enough, stop", who
23 was saying that?
24 A. I heard Delic say it twice or three times, "enough,
25 stop, enough. No more".
1 Q. On the last occasion when he was brought into the hangar
2 and left somewhere near the door, can you recall what
3 condition he was in this time?
4 A. He was totally beaten up and he was crying out for his
5 mother and moaning in pain, and then his voice left him
6 and he just huddled, crumpling in a corner. I do not
7 know how to describe it.
8 Q. How long did he stay at that place in that condition?
9 A. I cannot recall exactly, I believe that in the morning
10 when he died, he was taken out. I cannot recall all the
12 Q. How do you know that he died in the morning?
13 A. I cannot say that he died in the morning, but I do know
14 that he was dead. I cannot exactly remember, they were
15 mostly -- they would mostly die in the night. I cannot
16 recall all the details.
17 Q. Who took him out the next morning, do you remember?
18 A. Zenga called him out and took him out, and the guys were
19 still standing there, Osman and Kemo, and all the
20 others. I could not watch the people who were beating
21 him. I could only hear the voices.
22 Q. I am referring to the next morning with they came. Did
23 you see who it was that took him out of the hangar the
24 next morning?
25 A. Zenga called him out, as far as I could conclude.
1 I cannot remember -- he could not walk on his own and
2 people had to take him out, but I cannot remember that
4 Q. On the last occasion that he was taken out, did you ever
5 see him again?
6 A. I never saw him again. He was never inside again, nor
7 did he give any signs, nor did he scream.
8 Q. When you say "he did not give any signs, he did not
9 scream" did you see him in the condition when he did not
10 give any signs or did not scream? Did you see him in
11 that condition yourself, or is that something someone
12 may have told you?
13 A. To tell you the truth, I cannot bring myself to look at
14 a dead man and I tried not to look at them as they lay
15 there by the door.
16 Q. But difficult as it is for you to look, did you
17 occasionally just glance across the room and look at
18 the --
19 A. Occasionally I would cast a glance and see him lying
20 there, but there were no sounds or moans coming from
21 that direction and I assessed from that, as the screams
22 had stopped and the signs of life had stopped, that he
23 was dead.
24 Q. Also while you were detained in hangar number 6, did you
25 ever come to know a prisoner by the name of Bosko
2 A. Bosko Samoukovic, you mean. I knew this elderly man by
3 sight, he is from Bradina. He was fourth in the row
4 from the door next to the wall, there he stood with his
5 son. I believe his name was indeed Elko, I am not sure
6 of that. They stood there, then Zenga came in
7 brandishing a pole or a stick, I cannot remember
8 exactly. He started hitting the people in the line.
9 First he hit Mrkajic, then he hit all the people
10 standing in the line and the son of this old man and the
11 old man, Bosko, many times and the man fell down. Then
12 he ordered someone, I cannot remember exactly whom, take
13 him out, lead him out and they led him out. Whether
14 they gave him any aid I do not know. They took him to
15 number 22. Someone came a bit later and said that he
16 had died. He had been taken to number 22. He either
17 died on the way to 22 or in the ward, I am not sure.
18 Q. When the beating first commenced, did that take place in
19 hangar number 6, inside hangar number 6?
20 A. The beating took place precisely in hangar number 6.
21 First they started beating Rajko Mrkajic and then the
22 whole row of people. This was an elderly man, when he
23 fell down and it was obvious he was about to die, then
24 they ceased beating him.
25 Q. You say this was an elderly man. Tell us who you are
1 referring to?
2 A. I am referring to Bosko Samoukovic.
3 Q. When you say he was an elderly man, approximately how
4 old was Bosko Samoukovic?
5 A. I suppose that he was around 60, I am not quite sure of
6 his exact age. I suppose that this was about it.
7 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: The Trial Chamber will now break. We
8 will come back at 4.30.
9 (4.00 pm)
10 (A short break)
11 (4.30 pm)
12 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Shall we continue, Mr. Niemann?
13 MR. NIEMANN: Thank you, your Honour. So you were telling
14 their honours about things that you had observed with
15 respect to Mr. Bosko Samoukovic and you were in the
16 middle of telling us about that at the adjournment. Can
17 you tell their honours whether or not you know what this
18 gentleman's ethnic background was?
19 A. He was a Serb, he was a Serb; Bosko Samoukovic.
20 Q. When you observed the beating that took place, when it
21 first started, how far were you sitting away from this
22 gentleman? Are you able to estimate that?
23 A. Maybe less than 10 metres, something like that.
24 Q. You said in your evidence that you saw him being beaten,
25 among others, by Zenga. Did you see what he was being
1 beaten with?
2 A. As far as I was able to see, he had a wooden plank, a
3 board, a stick, something like that.
4 Q. Who was it that had the plank, just help us with that?
5 A. Zenga had the plank.
6 Q. Did you actually observe Zenga hit Mr. Samoukovic with
7 the plank?
8 A. He beat everyone, the whole row, and he beat Samoukovic
9 and the man fell from the blows.
10 Q. What happened to him when he fell from the blows, that
11 is Samoukovic, what did they do then?
12 A. As far as I can recall, he also said something to the
13 effect "take them away" as far as I can remember. They
14 tried to give him some kind of aid and then they carried
15 him away. I cannot remember all the details clearly,
16 but I remember the beating and when the man fell.
17 Q. Again, during the period of time that you were being
18 detained inside hangar 6, did you know a prisoner by the
19 name of (redacted)?
20 A. Yes, I did, (redacted)
22 Q. Did you see anything happen to him during the time that
23 he was in hangar number 6?
24 A. Zenga would take him out, he would beat him inside too.
25 He would take him out and he would cry out and scream
1 and his -- he was holding on to his hands because he had
2 burned him with something, I do not know what it was,
3 but on his palms and his tongue as far as I can
4 remember, too.
5 Q. When you say he had burned him with something, who are
6 you referring to as "he"?
7 A. Zenga, Zenga had burned him, one could hear his voice,
8 this was outside mostly and also inside, but I cannot
9 recall the exact details, but inside, too, he would
10 touch him and burn him. He was maybe 15 metres away
11 from me. He was moaning and crying out. I cannot
12 exactly say how it happened, but he was screaming and
13 yelling and something was being done to him, and I saw
14 the burns afterwards on his palms.
15 Q. Did you particularly when you were seeing things that
16 were happening inside the hangar, did you see with what
17 (redacted) was being burned with?
18 A. As far as I could see, he was holding something like a
19 knife as far as I could see.
20 Q. Are you able to explain how it was that he was burnt
21 with a knife?
22 A. He heated the knife and then with the red hot knife he
23 would put it on his palms and you could see that all his
24 palms were burnt from this red hot object.
25 Q. Where did he heat the knife?
1 A. I do not know how he heated it, maybe -- I think it was
2 some gun powder, something yellow. He would set light
3 to it and it would burn.
4 Q. Did Mr. Landzo say anything to this man (redacted)when he
5 was doing these things?
6 A. He would insult him and yell at him, curse him, do all
7 kinds of things.
8 Q. Did at any time this man, (redacted), receive medical
9 attention for the burns he had received?
10 A. He got some medical attention only when the Red Cross
11 came. As far as I can remember the Red Cross came and
12 they saw these people and then they ordered that some
13 medical aid be given to them and then they appointed a
14 doctor, I think Relja Mrkajic and Petko, they were in
15 number 2 and they went over there to have bandages put
16 on them.
17 Q. These instances when you say (redacted) was burnt, did
18 they happen inside the hangar or both inside and outside
19 the hangar?
20 A. There was inside and outside, he would do it inside and
21 outside; both inside and out.
22 Q. Again "he" referring there to Mr. Landzo?
23 A. Yes, Mr. Landzo, Mr. Landzo.
24 Q. When you say gunpowder as well, what do you mean by
25 that, "gunpowder as well".
1 A. I think something yellowish. I would see the children
2 would take it out of the bullets. It looked like
3 something yellowish so I thought it was gunpowder.
4 Q. This was flammable so far as you know? It would light
6 A. I do not know exactly. He was carrying something in his
7 hand, it might have been a liquid, but in any event it
8 was burning, so I do not know. How can I decide?
9 I know it was burning, there was a flame.
10 Q. Did you know a prisoner in the camp called Mirko Babic?
11 A. I did, I knew Mirko Babic, he was a forester, an elderly
12 man. He worked in Sipad as well, as a carpenter.
13 Q. Can you approximately tell us his age?
14 A. Mirko Babic, I do not know exactly now, but close to 60,
15 something like that, 58, 60. I do not know exactly, but
16 round about that.
17 Q. What was his ethnic group, are you able to say?
18 A. A Serb, he was a Serb, too.
19 Q. Did you observe how he was treated by Mr. Delic and
20 Mr. Landzo during the period of time that you were in the
22 A. They beat him, they took him out, inside also they beat
23 him. He was sitting there, they would hit him. They
24 beat him just like they beat the others.
25 Q. Again while you were in the camp, did you come to know a
1 prisoner -- did you know a prisoner by the name of
2 Nedeljko Draganic?
3 A. I did know Nedeljko Draganic, too. His father was Rajko
5 Q. Did you know him before you went into the camp?
6 A. I knew him before I arrived at the camp. He is my
7 uncle's son.
8 Q. Did you see anything happen to him in the camp while you
9 were there?
10 A. The same things happened to him, too. He was taken out
11 by Zenga, by Kemo, by Osman and Delic, too, occasionally
12 but mostly these others would take him out. Zenga would
13 force him to graze grass, to eat grass, where people had
14 urinated, and he had to do it. He had to lick
15 something, that is what he told us in the hangar. These
16 things were happening outside. On one occasion he was
17 taken out and now I cannot exactly recall, but his
18 trousers were burnt and he had two burns after that on
19 his leg.
20 Q. Did you see these burns when he came back into the
22 A. Those burns could be seen later because the trousers
23 had -- the legs of the trousers had burnt and you could
24 see the naked flesh on his legs.
25 Q. Did you see whether or not he received medical attention
1 for these burns?
2 A. He did not get any medical attention, only when the
3 Red Cross came and they asked the people, when they came
4 they asked individually when they would see these things
5 on certain people. They would ask and then they
6 demanded that they be treated and bandaged.
7 Q. The time that he was taken out and received these burns,
8 that is what you observed when he came back. Do you
9 know who it was that took him out on that occasion?
10 A. Zenga did this most. There was something that was
11 burning and then he would pour something on him. His
12 trousers were burning and then somehow they put it off
13 so his leg got scorched. You could hear his moans.
14 Q. Did you also know a prisoner by the name of Vukasin
16 A. I knew Vukasin Mrkajic, too. He, too, was insulted and
17 beaten. He would start doing pushups and they would hit
18 him and he would fall and cry out and then they wrapped
19 some kind of a fuse, a cord round him and he would be
20 moaning and yelling and you could hear these moans all
21 the time.
22 Q. When you say "they", who are you referring to?
23 A. Zenga most of all. It was Zenga who did this most of
24 all and then Osman and Delic were there too, Kemo, all
25 those other guards were there too.
1 Q. Was Mr. Landzo and Mr. Delic there at the time when he was
2 burnt with a fuse or with a cord?
3 MS. McMURREY: Your Honour, I am going to have to object
4 because there has been no predicate laid as to whether
5 this happened inside or outside. I would like the
6 Prosecutor to let us know whether he has personal
7 knowledge about this.
8 MR. NIEMANN: I withdraw that, your Honour. When you talk
9 about this occasion where Mr. Vukasin Mrkajic was burned,
10 did you observe it happening yourself?
11 A. Landzo did these things inside too. He would do it
12 inside but he would also do it outside.
13 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: You are being asked, which of them did
14 you see do the burnings.
15 A. I saw mostly when they took them out and they did these
16 things and these burnings and when they come back, they
17 were crying, Vukasin was crying that the fuse was around
18 his body and he came back in crying and moaning.
19 MR. NIEMANN: On that occasion when you saw him come out
20 crying about the fuse that had been round his body, did
21 you see who had taken him out on that occasion?
22 A. Zenga called him out, Zenga, Zenga. He came to the
23 door, said "come out" and that is how it was.
24 Q. Did you see who it was, which guard it was that actually
25 brought him back, or was he brought back by a guard?
1 A. He flew back like a bullet being chased until the fuse
3 Q. When he came back into the room, did you observe any
4 guards either at the door or near the entrance way to
5 the hangar?
6 A. I could not really see all that because my back turned.
7 Sometimes I could see, I have forgotten these things, to
8 be quite frank with you. I really cannot recall all the
10 Q. Do you recall hearing the sounds of the voices of the
11 guards at the time of this particular incident that you
12 are referring to?
13 A. I heard Zenga, I heard him screaming at him. Others
14 were shouting too, but Zenga most of all.
15 Q. Are you able to recall anything that Zenga said when you
16 heard him screaming and shouting?
17 A. I cannot recall, I really cannot. I must be honest
18 about it, I cannot.
19 Q. Can you recall anything that Mr. Vukasin Mrkajic may have
20 said during the time this fuse was put around his body?
21 A. He was screaming, he would mention his mother "do not do
22 this to me for God's sake", something to that effect.
23 Q. Did he call out any of the names of the guards while
24 this was happening? Did he appeal to any of the guards
25 and mention them by name or nickname?
1 A. I really cannot remember.
2 Q. Thank you. Did you also know a person in the hangar
3 number 6 by the name of Dusan Bendo?
4 A. I know Dusan Bendo too.
5 Q. Did you see anything happen to Dusan Bendo in the camp?
6 A. Also he was taken out and he showed us his burns on his
7 body. We did not dare go up to him. He would be taken
8 out by Zenga, it was Zenga, then he would scream and
9 wail and we saw the burns and that was it.
10 Q. Do you know whether or not he was offered any medical --
11 this is Mr. Bendo, whether he received any medical
12 attention for the burns he had received?
13 A. Only when the Red Cross came as far as I believe -- not
14 believe, but I think no one got any medical attention
15 before the Red Cross. Somebody was ill, had a high
16 temperature, maybe they may have brought him a tablet or
17 two, but I cannot really remember. Mostly when the
18 Red Cross came, then they went for treatment.
19 Q. Do you know a man by the name of Zejnil Delalic?
20 A. I do not know him well. He had a car repair shop.
21 I later heard that he had opened a cafe in his house.
22 I never visited that cafe. The man was working in
23 Germany. On one occasion, when we were in the camp
24 somebody said, the guards would say "sit still, the
25 commander is coming". So I sat there looking in front
1 of me. The man entered, about five or six metres from
2 me, now I cannot remember. I think there were two other
3 people with him with pistols, behind them was Delic.
4 Delic was wearing a military uniform. I cannot recall
5 whether the others were in uniform. I do not seem to be
6 able to recall that. The man would walk around about 10
7 metres and as he turned back, he was at the doorway, and
8 Delic fired a shot with his automatic rifle which went
9 through the steel roof and then one bullet ricocheted
10 and hit, I think hit Kuljanin and hit him in the thigh.
11 Q. Where did this happen, where Delic fired the bullets?
12 Where did this happen?
13 A. It happened in the hangar. They had already made the
14 tour and I think that Delalic had also walked out. When
15 Delic reached the doorway, he fired this shot up into
16 the roof.
17 Q. When you say "made the tour", the tour was made by
18 Mr. Delalic; is that right?
19 A. Yes, I am thinking of Mr. Delalic.
20 Q. Mr. Delic was with Mr. Delalic at the time, was he?
21 A. He was with him, he was following him, behind him when
22 they came. Now I just cannot remember. As far as
23 I recall one of them had a white T-shirt, but we did not
24 really dare look up. We had to have our arms on our
25 knees, they walked around a little, so I now really
1 cannot recall whether he had a uniform or not. That is
2 the truth of it, but Delic did have a uniform. He was
3 always in uniform as far as I was able to observe, and
4 he fired the shot.
5 Q. Did Mr. Delalic say or do anything in respect of Mr. Delic
6 when the rifle was fired inside the hangar?
7 A. I cannot recall. He may have said something, he may not
8 have said anything, I cannot remember that.
9 Q. Do you recall whether Mr. Delalic did anything as a
10 consequence of the person being wounded by the gunfire?
11 A. I cannot, I cannot remember, I really cannot. I cannot
12 say things that I cannot be sure about. I cannot
13 remember the details.
14 Q. Thank you. Do you know where the village or the town
15 where Mr. Delalic had his premises, the car repair
16 premises and cafe? Do you know the town?
17 A. He did not have a workshop, he had a car wash shop, and
18 I heard later that he had opened a cafe and also he
19 repaired tyres, as far as I can remember, and washed
20 cars. This was just near the motel, maybe 100 metres
21 from the hotel in Konjic, on the way out of Konjic in
22 the direction of Mostar on the right-hand side.
23 Q. Did you know any members of the Delalic family?
24 A. Delalics; I think it was his uncle or his brother, Dzafo
25 Delalic, I knew him. He was a very nice man. What
1 happened to him during this war I do not know. He was a
2 driver. I knew him as a child.
3 Q. While you were a prisoner at the Celebici camp, were
4 most of the soldiers that you saw and that you knew
6 A. As far as the Celebici camp is concerned, there was only
7 Pavo Mucic who was a Croat and -- yes, somebody else,
8 Buric, a guard, but Buric was also correct. He even
9 brought food from certain households. I remember him
10 giving food to Nenad Cecez.
11 Q. While you were a prisoner at the camp, did you ever hear
12 the sounds of military training units going on, or the
13 training of soldiers happening in or about the camp?
14 A. I could hear around the camp, they would usually close
15 the hangars, but we could hear applause, some kind of a
16 hymn, I do not know what. Then there was a kind of
17 rifle warehouse and we had to go and unload ammunition
18 into concrete bunkers and I saw this bunker, and just
19 behind it one could hear applause and noise, people, a
20 lot of people gathered.
21 Q. Again while you were in the camp, did you at any stage
22 see a journalist come to the camp?
23 A. While we were in the Celebici camp some people did come
24 to take photographs. I know they were black. I cannot
25 say for sure whether they were from Arab countries or
1 from others, but I know they were black. They came
2 several times, three or four times, I think it was.
3 Q. What did they do when they came to the camp?
4 A. They came to the camp, we had to sit down. Delic would
5 lead them. I could not really look up. He would force
6 people to get up and put their hands behind their
7 heads. I could not see very much what happened on that
9 Q. The person that you just referred to, Hazim Delic, do
10 you think you would recognise this gentleman again if
11 you saw him?
12 A. Hazim Delic? Of course I would, yes, I would be able to
13 recognise him.
14 Q. Do you think you could recognise the person that you
15 have referred to as Zenga if you saw him again?
16 A. I think I would. I do not know how much he has changed
17 in five years, but I should be able to recognise
18 everyone. I am not so sure about Delalic, maybe less
20 MR. NIEMANN: Thank you. No further questions, your Honour.
21 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Is there any cross-examination?
22 MS. RESIDOVIC: Your Honour, as we have not agreed about
23 the order, I will start with the cross-examination of
24 the witness, because it is our agreement if we do not
25 have any special arrangements, we follow according to
1 the order in the indictment.
2 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Proceed then.
3 Cross-examined by MS. RESIDOVIC
4 Q. Thank you, your Honour. Mr. Sudar, I am Edina Residovic,
5 I am counsel for Zejnil Delalic.
6 A. Thank you, madam.
7 Q. Mr. Sudar, as you and I speak the same language and
8 understand each other very well, your answers to my
9 questions can be quick. However, we are asked by the
10 court that you should wait until after I ask you a
11 question for the translation into the English language
12 so that everybody in the courtroom can hear my question,
13 and only then answer my question, and I myself will also
14 wait for the translation and only then ask you another
15 question. Have you understood this?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Thank you very much. Mr. Sudar, during the
18 examination-in-chief, you said that you had lived in the
19 village of Cerici until the war, is that so?
20 A. Yes, it is.
21 Q. And that you used to come to the city of Konjic until
22 mid-April, is that so?
23 A. Yes, somewhere around that I had transferred my wife to
24 her relatives in Montenegro then I returned with my
25 car. I also had intended to move my brother's wife and
1 children, but I was returned from the road by Durak, he
2 was there near the motel with a sort of a brigade, I am
3 not sure what it was.
4 MR. ACKERMAN: I do not think the witness has understood that
5 he can hear the English translation with those other
6 earphones, because he is not waiting until the
7 translation and it is all starting to run together,
8 which is what we are trying to avoid. So if he could be
9 properly instructed in that regard.
10 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Will you kindly tell him to wait for
11 the translation of questions before he gives the
13 MS. RESIDOVIC: Mr. Sudar, you have earphones sitting on the
14 table in front of you and you can hear the English
15 translation. When the sound stops coming from the
16 earphones will you only then answer my question?
17 A. Yes, I have understood.
18 Q. Thank you. You have just said, Mr. Sudar, that you are
19 not quite sure that you are able to recognise
20 Mr. Delalic, is that so?
21 A. I only know him by sight, and I only saw him on a number
22 of occasions when he came to the camp and we did not
23 dare turn around, but the guards would say "here comes
24 the commander".
25 Q. Let me ask you, before the war, you never had occasion
1 to personally meet Mr. Delalic; is that correct?
2 A. Before the war I never had the opportunity to be in
3 contact with Mr. Delalic. I never had established any
4 contact with him.
5 Q. Mr. Sudar, you know that in Konjic and in its
6 surroundings there are many families bearing the same
7 surname, is that so?
8 A. Yes, there are many Delalics who are related.
9 Q. And as you have testified before the court, you knew his
10 brother Dzafo who immediately before the war died in
11 Konjic. You certainly are aware of the fact that his
12 family is also quite numerous, is that so?
13 A. I do not know whether Dzafo is his brother or his uncle,
14 I cannot say for sure. I do not know Delalic very well
15 because he worked abroad. I saw his wife every now and
16 then, I think she is from Belgrade, from Serbia.
17 Q. Thank you. What you have just testified before the
18 court is because you heard the guards, is on the basis
19 of what you heard the guards say and not on the basis of
20 your personal knowledge?
21 A. The guards said very plainly and clearly "here comes the
22 commander. He is at the door". I could not see the man
23 properly, I only saw him in passing. I cannot now
24 remember whether he was in uniform or not. I only saw a
25 man with a pistol in a white T-shirt, corpulent and wide
2 Q. Thank you. You can testify before this court on the
3 basis of your personal cognisance of facts. Thank you.
4 Mr. Sudar, please tell me when you returned to
5 Cerici, when you were returning to Cerici, was it
6 necessary for you to pass through the checkpoint which
7 was in front of Donje Selo?
8 A. I did not see a checkpoint anywhere, we passed normally
9 to Donje Selo to that side. I do not know where the
10 checkpoint was. Checkpoint -- there was a checkpoint
11 near the motel. There was one in the city and one
12 towards Donje Selo. Perhaps I was intercepted, perhaps
13 something else was the case, I do not know.
14 Q. You knew Lazar Cecez, is that a fact?
15 A. Yes, everybody knew him.
16 Q. And he also had certain powers in terms of inspecting
17 people coming into and leaving Donje Selo?
18 A. I was not inspected by anyone. I was never on very
19 friendly terms with the Cecezs.
20 Q. Let me ask you now something in view of the fact that
21 you testified before this court that you personally knew
22 Mirko Babic. Please tell me whether it is correct that
23 Mirko Babic is from Bjelasnica and he is a forester?
24 A. It is true that Mirko Babic was from Bjelasnica, he
25 worked in the carpentry department, rather in the timber
1 department. He worked there more than he was a forest
2 warden. I think that he was transferred to Sipad
3 because there were more foresters than they needed, but
4 I cannot remember exactly now.
5 Q. They used to call him Pal because he liked to socialise
6 with people. He was a bachelor and he was on his own?
7 A. Yes, he was a bachelor. They called him, Jaranika which
8 means Pal and he was not married.
9 Q. Thank you. And you also know the forester Marjan Rajic,
10 is that so?
11 A. The forester Marjan Rajic, I know him. I know Marjan
13 Q. You are certainly aware of the fact that several years
14 before the war, Jaranika and Marjan Rajic had slaked
15 some lime and they used some gas and that they had burns
16 inflicted, serious burns on themselves?
17 A. I only hear this for the first time now madam.
18 Q. Thank you. I should like to ask you some other
19 questions now. In relation to what you have testified
20 before this court, will you please tell me, Mr. Sudar, is
21 it true that before the war while there still existed a
22 Yugoslavia, that the armed force of Yugoslavia was the
23 Yugoslav People's Army and the Territorial Defence Force
24 and that the Ministry of the Secretariat of the
25 Interior, as we call it, dealt with police and internal
1 security affairs; is that so?
2 A. What do you mean the Secretariat of the Interior?
3 I have not understood the question well.
4 Q. So the armed forces of the former Yugoslavia were the
5 Yugoslav People's Army and the Territorial Defence, and
6 the police was the SUP or the MUP as we called it; is
7 that so?
8 A. I do not know. I know we had a Yugoslav Army; right
9 before the war there appeared an army of the Muslims, or
10 an army of the Serbs, or an army of the Croats. There
11 appeared or emerged three armies.
12 Q. After the promulgation of independence of
13 Bosnia-Herzegovina early in April, do you know that the
14 Yugoslav People's Army then was no longer the army of
16 A. We took our oath before the authorities of the Yugoslav
17 army and not before any other army. I do not know what
18 to tell you. We as Serbs could not go to any other army
19 but the one that we had taken an oath before.
20 Q. But you know that the Territorial Defence and the MUP
21 remained in Konjic, the ones from before the war, is
22 that so?
23 A. I do not know, I really did not take much interest in
24 those matters. I cannot give you a precise answer.
25 Q. Can you say that there existed in Konjic legal
1 legitimate organs of authority in the first days of the
2 war, an assembly, a presidency, a municipal government,
3 is that so?
4 A. Of course, Konjic was a municipality and everything
5 functioned while there was a Yugoslavia. Prior to the
6 war, immediately before the war, all the parties --
7 there were divisions along the lines of parties SDA,
9 Q. No, Mr. Sudar, I am not interested in these political
10 questions. Let somebody else discuss those things.
11 I am asking you about facts. The village of Cerici from
12 which you come, Bjelasnica, Donje Selo is a local
13 community, all these villages and hamlets belonged to
14 the municipality of Konic; is that a fact?
15 A. They belonged to it, of course, before normally, before
16 the war I mean then.
17 Q. I believe that they did not go anywhere from that
18 particular area, I am referring to the villages?
19 A. The villages, there are still the villages there.
20 Q. Thank you. Do you know, Mr. Sudar, that in these
21 authorities of the municipality of Konjic to which all
22 these villages belong comprised representatives of all
23 the nations living in Konjic?
24 A. You mean the municipality of Konjic?
25 Q. Yes, until the war.
1 A. Before the war there was mixed composition in the SUP,
2 some people were not satisfied as far as I could see.
3 Why that was the case I do not know.
4 Q. But the police force and the inspectors, the managing
5 staff, the superiors also comprised members of all the
7 A. Yes, while Yugoslavia existed there were.
8 Q. You know Duro Kuljanin, do you not?
9 A. Yes, but only slightly.
10 Q. He was the vice-president of the assembly of the Konjic
12 A. I do not know what he was, I was not interested in
14 Q. But he is a Serb, is he not?
15 A. As far as I know he is a Serb, but I am not at all
16 interested in politics.
17 Q. Very well, Mr. Sudar. You spoke about events which took
18 place somewhere around 20th May. You used some national
19 designations. However, a while ago you said that you
20 knew that both the Territorial Defence and the MUP were
21 in Konjic, but you said that the HVO also appeared
23 A. In Konjic, in April, I saw in the town people wearing
24 black uniforms, so I am not sure who they were, HOS
25 people, and I also saw other people wearing fezes on
1 their heads, you know what the army used to be before
2 that, the Yugoslav army. Then I could not exactly tell,
3 but these are the uniforms I saw.
4 Q. This HVO army first stationed itself, as you said, in
5 the motel and that was the reason why you no longer went
6 to the city; is that a fact?
7 A. We dared not go, but some of it -- Draganic would go to
8 buy something and when he returned he would return black
9 and blue, Vlado Draganic.
10 Q. And the commander of the HVO police there was called
11 Aga, is that a fact?
12 A. I do not know, to tell you frankly, I do not know who
13 was the commander nor who -- what his function was nor
14 his name.
15 Q. But you personally know Ivan Jozic?
16 A. Ivan Jozic, let me tell you the truth, he worked at the
17 petrol station if that is the Ivan Jozic you are
18 referring to.
19 Q. Nicknamed Aga.
20 A. No, that is not Aga, perhaps you have someone else in
21 mind. Aga was Branko Josic.
22 Q. And he was present when you surrendered your arms and
23 when you were arrested?
24 A. No, he was not present, he was not present there as far
25 as I could see. There for the most part were no Croats
1 down there on the bridge but only this Jozic who worked
2 at the gas station and most of them were Muslims and
3 they were people unknown to me. And this Masic, I am
4 sorry, this Masic was also there.
5 Q. And these are known people who arrested you, they were
6 not the same people who you later saw at Celebici as
8 A. To tell you the truth, I did not see so much of those
9 people, I only saw them seldom. I would not know them
10 had they not come to the prison in Konjic, Masic, for
11 instance, and because somebody told me this is Masic and
12 he took my wallet and my identity card and my driving
13 licence and everything else.
14 Q. Mr. Sudar, please, is it true that you, just as all
15 others who pass through an unpleasant experience, wish
16 to put it behind and forget it?
17 A. Madam, I would like to forget it. My father who was 70
18 years old was beaten at home, we heard that it was the
19 Muslims who beat him. We had already been taken to
20 camp, and my father went to the house of this Aga,
21 Branko Josic, who hid him in a barn and fed him for
22 seven days, even bringing him coffee occasionally, to
23 prevent them from killing him. Then he returned my
24 father home. After that he was transferred by the
1 Q. And you are grateful?
2 A. He saved my father.
3 Q. Thank you, but I wish to ask you something else. Is it
4 true that last year you remembered some of these events
5 better than you can recall them right now, or that you
6 will be able to recall them in a couple of years?
7 A. Madam, I really cannot recall these things. Five years
8 have elapsed. My father and my mother were killed in
9 the war and I lost everything that was dear to me.
10 Q. But you certainly remember some of the impressive things
11 that you remember better than some other particulars?
12 A. I cannot say. If I do remember them I shall give you an
13 answer, of course.
14 Q. For instance, if a bullet is fired in the hangar which
15 is not quite a frequent occurrence, this is something
16 that a man would tend to remember; is that not a fact?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. You, Mr. Sudar, were heard last year in the month of
19 February by the investigators of this Prosecutor of the
20 International Tribunal, is that so?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. And on that occasion you signed the statement which you
23 made then?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. And on that occasion the translator gave you also to
1 sign a witness acknowledgment where you stated that you
2 had given that statement of your own accord, that you
3 had said everything that you knew and that you were
4 aware that statement could be used before this Tribunal,
5 is that so?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. At that time you had no idea of who might be indicted
8 before this court, is that so?
9 A. What do I know? I really cannot tell who might or could
10 have been or will be indicted.
11 Q. At that time you did not tell Mr. Sergio Oaxaca, the
12 investigator, you did not even mention this bullet fired
13 in the hangar and this occurrence?
14 A. I do not know, I perhaps have forgotten that. Why,
15 madam, I did not say.
16 Q. Had you not been directly asked about Mr. Delalic's name
17 you would never have mentioned it; is that not so?
18 A. Let me tell you, Madam, please, as you say, I did not
19 mention it then, but did I mention then Zeljko Cecez?
20 When I came from the hall from Celebici on the religious
21 holiday on that evening, he was also killed then.
22 Perhaps I did not mention Klimenta either, because I had
23 also forgotten: Zeljko Klimenta, he too, just a few days
24 before the Red Cross came, had been also taken out in
25 the morning and killed.
1 Q. Thank you, yes, but you stated that all the Serbs in
2 Cerici and Donje Selo, their phone lines had been cut?
3 A. Yes, the telephones were down, were cut in all the
4 villages and I heard that was not the case in my house
5 and I dared not approach my house. I dared not go to my
6 house because of the snipers, as my house was down by
7 the road, by the lake and I did not dare go there.
8 Q. Can you tell us on what date was it that the telephone
9 lines were cut?
10 A. As far as I can recall, that took place before the
11 attack on Donje Selo. I really cannot recall all the
12 particulars, but it was -- everything was cut, all the
13 lines were cut before the attack. I really cannot
14 recall exactly. I do remember they were down.
15 Q. But you went to your father's, Mr. Sudar, when the attack
17 A. When the attack on Donje Selo started, I dare not remain
18 overnight and sleep in my house. I only came to water
19 the garden and then I would go and stay in the forest
20 while the attack was on and then return.
21 Q. And, Mr. Sudar, you did not check at all whether your own
22 phone was functioning or not, so somebody else had to
23 inform you of this?
24 A. Madam, I told you, I just dared not sleep by the road
25 because we walked across a slope to my father's house
1 amid a hail storm of bullets whizzing between my and my
2 father's house and I would just go down to water the
3 garden and return immediately to the village, because
4 I had no other obligations.
5 Q. Mr. Sudar, were you present when the interview was
6 conducted with the President of the municipality, when
7 the talk was conducted?
8 A. I was outside, Strajo Cecez called and Slobodan were
9 inside in my father's house and they called him on the
10 phone and he promised him reportedly that the next
11 day --
12 Q. Yes, thank you. And the President said that all the
13 villagers were to surrender all the weapons in their
15 A. Yes, anyone who had any armaments were to take and they
16 did, everybody who had some arms surrendered them as
18 Q. And you personally also handed over your weapons?
19 A. Yes, the piece which I had I surrendered it -- which
20 I had bought before.
21 Q. You know that many villagers in Donje Selo and Cerici
22 had procured weapons for themselves before the war?
23 A. I do not know, madam. I really know very little about
24 that thing.
25 Q. Is it true that you told the investigator of the
1 Prosecutor's office that you know that people were
2 selling their cows in order to procure weapons?
3 A. Normally, naturally I did not sell my cow, I had some
4 money put aside and I bought myself a weapon and later
5 on I surrendered it.
6 Q. What did you have?
7 A. I bought myself a pistol and then I surrendered it later
8 and I did not carry it. I hid it in the woods. Later
9 when I was in the camp I told them where it was and it
10 was found there.
11 Q. After the call, the talk with the President, you
12 testified the shelling immediately stopped?
13 A. Yes, the shelling stopped thereafter, so they said -- a
14 hour or so after that, towards evening.
15 Q. Then the morning, all of you took the weapons?
16 A. Not in the morning, no, madam, the shelling stopped on
17 the 21st, and we agreed then with the President that
18 everybody who had arms should surrender them.
19 Q. When you surrendered the weapons many of you wondered at
20 the multitude of arms found in the village?
21 A. I do not know, madam, maybe you do but I do not.
22 Q. Tell me, please, what did you see of the weapons which
23 were surrendered on that occasion?
24 A. I do not know exactly, there was an occasional rifle.
25 I was among the first to hand over.
1 Q. Automatic rifles?
2 A. I do not know whether there had been any automatic
3 rifles, mostly they were old hunting rifles, as far as
4 I could see.
5 Q. I apologise, just let me take a look at these papers.
6 In Celebici, you say you were interrogated, you were
8 A. We were blindfolded, I can tell you, and then we were
9 beaten up. We were unconscious and then we were taken
10 to this judge, and I cannot really see how I can go face
11 a judge blindfolded, I failed to really comprehend.
12 Q. Was this on the very next day after you had been brought
13 to the camp of Celebici?
14 A. It was that same night. First we were lined up against
15 a wall in Celebici when we arrived that night. Then we
16 were beaten and then we were transferred to 22 and we
17 found Babic lying there who later died. There were five
18 or six people there also, Jovak among them, each one of
19 them was taken out that evening and beaten up and taken
20 to face that court blindfolded.
21 Q. Please tell me, do you know that the President of this
22 panel of this commission was interrogating the men that
23 were apprehended then was Goran Lokas, the President of
24 the court?
25 A. Madam, I could not see, I could not see him, and judging
1 by the -- I believe that this forester Subasic
2 I believe, judging by his accent, I heard him only utter
3 a few -- maybe, I could not see.
4 MS. RESIDOVIC: Your Honours, I have a certain number of
5 questions still, I do not know whether to finish it
6 today; I could.
7 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: You know we have a practice of closing
8 at 5.30. This Trial Chamber will not sit tomorrow
9 because we have already committed that all along. It
10 was our schedule that we were not sitting tomorrow, so
11 you might as well wait until Monday to continue your
13 MS. RESIDOVIC: Thank you, your Honours.
14 (5.35 pm)
15 (Court adjourned until 10.00 am on
16 Monday 11th August 1997)