Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 5805

1 Monday, 11th August 1997

2 (10.00 am)

3 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Good morning ladies and gentlemen. We

4 are back this morning. Mr. Niemann, where will we start

5 now?

6 MR. NIEMANN: We are ready to proceed, your Honour.

7 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: We will have the appearances first.

8 MR. NIEMANN: If your Honour pleases, my name is Niemann, and

9 I appear with my colleagues Ms. McHenry, Mr. Turone and

10 Ms. Van Dusschoten for the Prosecution.

11 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: For the Defence, please.

12 MS. RESIDOVIC: Good morning your Honours, I am Edina

13 Residovic, counsel on behalf of Mr. Zejnil Delalic. My

14 co-counsel is Eugene O'Sullivan, professor from Canada.

15 Thank you.

16 MR. OLUJIC: Good morning, your Honours, my name is Olujic.

17 I appear on behalf of Mr. Mucic. Regrettably my

18 colleague Michael Greaves is ill today and will not

19 appear in the courtroom today. We wish him a speedy

20 recovery and with your leave your Honours I should like

21 to ask that my assistant Mr. Niko Duric who had been

22 following this trial from the gallery could be with us

23 until Michael Greaves returns. We shall as necessary

24 submit his Procuration. Thank you.

25 MR. KARABDIC: Good morning, your Honours, I am Salih

Page 5806

1 Karabdic, attorney from Sarajevo appearing on behalf of

2 Hazim Delic. My co-counsel is Mr. Thomas Moran from

3 Houston, Texas.

4 MR. ACKERMAN: Good morning, your Honours, my name is John

5 Ackerman and I represent Esad Landzo. My co-counsel is

6 Cynthia McMurray from Houston.

7 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Thank you very much. There is nothing

8 coming through on the transcript. What is happening?

9 I think before you commence, we give leave to the

10 assistant of Mr. Olujic to stand in while Mr. Greaves

11 cannot work.

12 MR. NIEMANN: As your Honour pleases.

13 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Let us begin.

14 MR. NIEMANN: Your Honours, I would like to start by making

15 an application, if I may, to interpose a witness by the

16 name of Harraz, who is the next on the list,

17 your Honours. The basis of the application we depose is

18 because -- there is two grounds, firstly the witness

19 himself is anxious to give his evidence today and go, he

20 has other commitments which he has to attend to, but

21 perhaps more importantly, special arrangements have had

22 to be made, your Honour, in respect of interpreters.

23 The witness speaks Arabic and we do not have Arabic

24 interpreters in house and special provision has been

25 made to bring them in. I am informed, your Honours,

Page 5807

1 that the cost of the Arabic interpreters is very very

2 high and they have to be paid in respect of whether or

3 not they are used. They are here today to do this

4 interpreting and if we do not proceed to use them now,

5 we still have to pay the costs -- the Tribunal has to

6 meet the costs of their attendance, which is very

7 extensive. That cost, of course, does not apply for the

8 witness we are seeking to have postponed at the moment,

9 your Honour, so on both those grounds, your Honours, we

10 make this application.

11 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: We will grant leave so that you can

12 change the order and call your next witness.

13 MR. NIEMANN: As your Honour pleases.

14 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Let us have the witness.

15 MS. McHENRY: Good morning your Honours. The Prosecution

16 calls Mr. Harraz.

17 MS. McHENRY: With respect to the oath, your Honours, and

18 the Registrar, I would advise that this witness does

19 speak some English, so I believe he would be able to

20 take the oath in English, if that would be easiest to

21 have it in his own words.

22 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: He has an interpreter?

23 MS. McHENRY: Yes, sir, he does speak some English but

24 indicates he would not feel comfortable testifying in

25 full in English.

Page 5808

1 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Kindly make the interpreter take the

2 oath first.


4 ASSA'AD HARRAZ (sworn)

5 Examined by MS. McHENRY

6 Q. May I proceed, your Honours?

7 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Yes, you may, please.

8 MS. McHENRY: Sir, may I please ask you to state your full

9 name?

10 A. Assa'ad Harraz.

11 Q. Do you have any nicknames or other names you go by also?

12 A. No, I have none.

13 Q. What is your nationality?

14 A. Egyptian.

15 Q. What is your age, sir?

16 A. I am 42 years old.

17 Q. What is your profession?

18 A. Journalist.

19 Q. When you publish is it always under your name,

20 Mr. Assa'ad Harraz, or do you sometimes use another press

21 name?

22 A. Assa'ad Taha.

23 Q. That is a name you sometimes use when publishing, is

24 that correct, sir?

25 A. Taha is my father's name so I am also called Assa'ad

Page 5809

1 Taha.

2 Q. Sir, were you in the former Yugoslavia in 1992?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Who were you working for at that time?

5 A. I was working for several newspapers as a freelance

6 journalist.

7 Q. Sir, what languages do you speak?

8 A. I speak Arabic, a bit of English and a bit of German.

9 Q. In the former Yugoslavia in 1992, did you have occasion

10 to visit Konjic in Bosnia-Herzegovina?

11 A. Yes, I did visit Konjic at that time.

12 Q. Can you state when approximately it was that you went to

13 Konjic?

14 A. May 1992.

15 Q. Just to clarify to make sure that I did not have any

16 interpretation error, did you say May, sir, of 1992?

17 A. Yes, as far as I remember, I was there in May 1992.

18 Q. Can you briefly explain how this trip was arranged, who

19 went on the trip, just a little bit about the logistics

20 of the trip?

21 A. Initially nothing had been prepared in view of the

22 circumstances prevailing at the time in the region as

23 there was the war on. I went to Split and from Split

24 I met certain friends or certain people who helped us to

25 go to areas of the conflict. We did not intend to go to

Page 5810

1 Konjic in particular, we intended to visit some areas

2 where battles were going on.

3 Q. Who accompanied you, sir, on this trip?

4 A. I was accompanied by some Bosnians, I do not remember

5 their names now. There was also another person that

6 I met and who worked as a cameraman.

7 Q. Do you know the name of this other person and where he

8 was from?

9 A. Ahmed Aamish.

10 Q. Do you know where he was from?

11 A. I think he was Libyan.

12 Q. When you say he was a cameraman, was he a cameraman

13 working for you or was he working on his own?

14 A. He was working alone, but I met him in Zagreb.

15 Q. When you say he was a cameraman, am I correct in

16 assuming he therefore had some sort of video camera?

17 A. Yes, he has a professional camera, a professional one.

18 Q. Sir, did you also have an interpreter with you?

19 A. Yes, I had an Arabic interpreter. I met him in Split,

20 but I would like to rectify something I said in the

21 beginning. I was in Bosnia in May 1992, but in Konjic

22 I was at the end of June or July, I do not remember

23 exactly.

24 Q. Thank you. Sir, with respect to your interpreter, when

25 you say he was an Arabic interpreter, am I correct in

Page 5811

1 assuming that this person could speak Arabic and

2 Serbo-Croatian and he was of Arabic origin, is that what

3 you mean?

4 A. Yes, he was an Arab student studying there, so he spoke

5 quite well the local language and, of course, he spoke

6 Arabic.

7 Q. Sir, did you have a camera with you, not a video camera

8 but just a regular camera?

9 A. Yes, I did have a camera.

10 Q. Then Konjic, sir: where did you go on this trip?

11 A. After Konjic I went back to Split and from there went on

12 to Zagreb.

13 Q. Before you went to Konjic, did you visit any other areas

14 of Bosnia?

15 A. I remember that I went to Mostar and I am not sure

16 whether at that time I visited Zenica.

17 Q. Can you estimate how long the entire trip took from

18 Split, during the time you were within Bosnia?

19 A. I think it was under a week, perhaps five days.

20 Q. Can you just briefly describe where you went and what

21 you did on this trip?

22 A. We arrived in Konjic in the evening. We met one of the

23 people in charge, Rusim Haji. We spoke with him, we had

24 an interview with him, and then on the next day, we went

25 to the camp. Perhaps there was something else that I do

Page 5812

1 not remember now but after that, at the end of the day,

2 we visited the commander of the area.

3 Q. Do you know the name of the camp that you went to?

4 A. No, I remember that it was a camp for detainees, but

5 I was not given any particular name for it.

6 Q. Did you write any articles setting forth your

7 experiences on this trip?

8 A. Yes, and it was published in the Asharq Al-Awsat

9 newspaper.

10 Q. Can you just please briefly tell us with respect to this

11 newspaper where it is published, what language it is

12 published in?

13 A. It is a daily newspaper that issued in Arabic from

14 London and it is financed by Saudi financiers.

15 Q. How long after your trip were the articles published,

16 sir?

17 A. I think between the beginning of the trip and the

18 publication of the article, between one to two weeks

19 past.

20 MISS McHENRY: With the usher's assistance, I would like the

21 witness to be shown -- I would like this to be marked

22 for identification purposes and then shown to the

23 witness, thank you. The Defence has previously been

24 provided copies of these.

25 THE REGISTRAR: It is marked as document 167 and the

Page 5813

1 translation 167A. (Handed).

2 A. This is the article that was published for me in the

3 Asharq Al-Awsat newspaper.

4 MISS McHENRY: Sir, can you briefly say what is the subject

5 matter of this article?

6 A. In this article I describe what I have witnessed in this

7 camp in Konjic, approximately the scenes that I have

8 witnessed at that time in that camp.

9 Q. Sir, what is the date that the article was published?

10 A. The article was published on Friday, 24th July 1992.

11 MISS McHENRY: Now I would like to show you another exhibit,

12 with the assistance of the usher. These have previously

13 been provided to Defence counsel. Sir, you are now

14 being shown what has been marked for identification

15 purposes as Prosecution Exhibit 168. I ask if you can

16 look at that, recognise it and if so, please tell us

17 what it is.

18 A. In this article, which was published on Saturday

19 25th July 1992, I speak about the fighting unit that was

20 in that area and a meeting or an interview that

21 I carried with the commander of the area, Zejnil Din.

22 Q. Sir, are these two exhibits your own copies of the

23 published articles; in other words the original from the

24 actual newspaper?

25 A. Yes, these are the copies that I have kept for myself

Page 5814

1 after the publishing of the newspaper that day.

2 Q. Did you have an opportunity to review the articles

3 immediately after they were published?

4 A. Yes, I have read them and I feel that the general gist

5 is compatible with what I have sent. I did not check

6 word for word, but on the whole, the information is what

7 I have sent to the newspaper.

8 Q. Is the information you sent to the newspaper a fair and

9 accurate reflection of your experiences in Konjic?

10 A. Yes, and I always wanted to ascertain that this is what

11 I have seen, regardless whether that was the reality or

12 not, but this is what I have witnessed.

13 Q. Sir, some pictures are contained in both these

14 exhibits. Can you tell us who took these photographs?

15 A. I have taken the photographs.

16 Q. Do you still have the negatives from this trip, the

17 negatives for the photographs or for any additional

18 photographs that were not published?

19 A. Because of my permanent travel from one area to another,

20 I believe I have lost the negatives.

21 Q. Do you have to your knowledge any additional photographs

22 that were not published in your possession?

23 A. As I have said, unfortunately because of my permanent

24 travel over the last few years, I do not believe that

25 I have any other or additional pictures that would be of

Page 5815

1 any help.

2 Q. Sir, do you still have any of your notes from this trip?

3 A. No, I have not kept them.

4 Q. Thank you. Sir, am I correct that several names are

5 contained in your articles?

6 A. Yes, there are names of the people or the commanders

7 that I have met.

8 Q. Can you tell us whether or not you are able now to state

9 exactly what these -- how these names would be

10 pronounced in Serbo-Croatian or how they would be

11 written in a Latin script?

12 A. I do not speak Serbo-Croat myself, therefore I had

13 written those names at the time the way I heard them

14 from the interpreter.

15 Q. Is it correct, sir, that the Latin alphabet and the

16 Arabic alphabet are different?

17 A. Yes, of course, there is a difference in the way the

18 alphabet is written and the way it is pronounced,

19 therefore I had transcribed them the way I had heard

20 them.

21 Q. Sir, to the best of your ability, can you tell us the

22 names of the persons you met with on your trip and their

23 positions, if you know them. I would like to start off

24 with -- you indicated before that you met someone named

25 Mr Rusim Haji?

Page 5816

1 A. I remember two people, Mr Zejnil Din and Mr Rusim Haji and

2 other names I do not remember now. This is in fact a

3 chance for me to remind everyone that this event took

4 place around five years ago, which means it is very

5 difficult for me now to remember every detail,

6 particularly that this visit was not a rare visit for

7 me, it was not an event of an unique nature. For it to

8 be outstanding in my memory, it was part of many such

9 visits that I have carried out over many years and in

10 many areas in Bosnia.

11 Q. Thank you sir. I think everyone understands and

12 appreciates that.

13 With respect to Mr Rusim Haji, are you able to say

14 anything about what his position was?

15 A. The way he was introduced to me and the way I remember

16 it, it was as though he was the political leader of the

17 area. He was the first person I met when we had arrived

18 that evening in that area, as I have mentioned before.

19 Q. With respect to Zejnil Din, what was his position?

20 A. The way he was introduced to me, he was the commander of

21 the area, he was the general military commander of the

22 area.

23 Q. Sir, do you know who arranged your meeting with

24 Mr Zejnil Din, who set it up?

25 A. It is difficult for me to remember the names of the

Page 5817

1 people, especially that I have never met them since

2 then.

3 Q. Sir, do you know who arranged your visit to the camp

4 with detainees present?

5 A. Mr Rusim Haji facilitated that, with the help of others,

6 as I have said, but as I have mentioned, I do not

7 remember the names of the others.

8 Q. May I just clarify, sir; what visit or visits did

9 Mr Rusim Haji help facilitate? One or both; can you

10 just please explain that?

11 A. Him being politically responsible of the area, he

12 promised to facilitate the coverage of the events in the

13 area for the media, but the details I do not remember.

14 Q. Sir, I am just trying to clarify whether or not, if you

15 remember, whether or not Mr Rusim Haji assisted

16 facilitating your meeting with the commander of the area

17 or the camp or both?

18 A. In fact that evening he promised to provide all the

19 necessary help to facilitate our generalistic visit to

20 the area and he promised us that the following morning

21 we will commence visiting certain areas, and the next

22 morning indeed we did visit the commander and the camp,

23 but I do not remember if I had visited any other area or

24 any other establishment in that area. This is what he

25 had promised us the night before and he did fulfil it

Page 5818

1 the following morning. Thank you. I should also like

2 to clarify that matters at the time were not at all very

3 organised in a way to say that there were hierarchy in

4 the leadership, the leader and lesser leaders; in fact

5 things were disorganised but the assistance was given on

6 an individual or a personal basis more than a hierarchal

7 organisation of a governmental setup.

8 Q. Were you informed of that or was that just your

9 impression from what you could observe?

10 A. This is the impression that I had of the general

11 situation in Bosnia after the beginning of the war,

12 because of the weakness of the Muslim side things were

13 not fully organised, especially that they did not have a

14 military force that would allow them to set up the

15 political hierarchy needed.

16 Q. Sir, when you went to the camp, did you meet anyone who

17 was in charge of the camp?

18 A. A Croatian person was presented to me as being the man

19 responsible for the camp.

20 Q. At the present time, do you remember the name of that

21 person?

22 A. I do not remember.

23 Q. Can you tell us how it is that you remember that the

24 commander was of a Croatian background?

25 A. This is what I remember and I believe this is what I had

Page 5819

1 mentioned in the newspaper, that he was of Croatian

2 origin, especially that I do not remember meeting

3 another Croatian in such a leading position in the area.

4 Q. Going now to your trip to the camp, do you remember who

5 received you when you went to the camp?

6 A. As I have mentioned, I was met by this Croatian

7 commander and he had with him three or four other people

8 whom I was told also were responsible for running the

9 camp.

10 Q. Do you remember the names of any of these other persons?

11 A. Unfortunately I do not.

12 Q. With respect to the group that you met, who was in

13 charge, if anyone?

14 A. I am sorry, madam, I did not understand. Which group do

15 you mean?

16 Q. I am sorry. You indicated that you met the commander

17 and several other people. I am asking whether or not

18 you know among those people who was in charge?

19 A. What I remember is that this Croatian leader or

20 commander was responsible for the camp.

21 Q. Could you observe anything about his relationship with

22 the other people who also went around with you in the

23 camp?

24 A. It was obvious that he was in command, he was the

25 leader, he was giving the instructions to others who

Page 5820

1 were with him.

2 Q. Can you just briefly describe what you did at the camp

3 and approximately how long your visit lasted?

4 A. Yes. We visited the wards where the detainees were

5 kept, I believe it was probably two wards or more, then

6 we visited a small room where some patients were kept,

7 then I questioned some detainees very briefly, "why were

8 they detained, why did this happen?" During this

9 interview, we were accompanied by the leadership of the

10 camp, whether the Croatian leader or the people who

11 accompanied him, meaning they were with me all the time.

12 The coverage of the camp was between -- from 45

13 minutes to one hour, it took.

14 Q. Just to clarify, so your visit to the camp the entire

15 visit took approximately 45 minutes to one hour; did I

16 understand that correctly?

17 A. This is what I do remember with great difficulty.

18 I believe it was from 45 minutes to one hour.

19 Q. Sir, did I also understand you correctly that on the

20 occasions when you talked to a few of the prisoners that

21 the officials from the camp were also present?

22 A. Yes, they were by our side.

23 Q. Going back to the articles you wrote, is it possible for

24 you to now remember all the information contained in the

25 article?

Page 5821

1 A. Of course I read the articles again and I remember, but

2 unfortunately I do not remember any other things that

3 could be useful in this case. This was not an

4 investigation about the camp, the coverage was aimed at

5 describing the general circumstances prevailing in the

6 area at the time, so I just tried to see what things --

7 how things were going on then. I did not concentrate on

8 the military side or on the situation of the detainees

9 and where they came from.

10 Q. Sir, with respect to the Croatian camp commander that

11 you have mentioned, do you now remember his name?

12 A. No, I do not remember.

13 Q. Is there anything that would refresh your recollection,

14 such as the article you wrote?

15 A. When I read the article, I see his name written down,

16 but I do not remember personally now his name.

17 I remember that he was close to Zejnil Din, or rather

18 that he believed in the necessity of an alliance between

19 the Muslims and the Croats.

20 MISS McHENRY: Your Honour, because this witness has

21 testified he cannot now remember everything about his

22 visit, including names, but that he did accurately

23 reflect it in his article at the time, I would ask that

24 Prosecution Exhibit 167, the article containing his

25 account of the visit, be read out loud by the

Page 5822

1 interpreter and then I will have some specific

2 supplementary questions about that.


4 MISS McHENRY: Do I have your Honour's permission to ask the

5 interpreter to read out loud the account of the visit

6 that this Prosecution Exhibit 167.

7 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: You can do so.

8 MISS McHENRY: Thank you. If the interpreters could now,

9 please, in English read out the article, the article of

10 24th July 1992.

11 THE INTERPRETER: "Asharq Al-Awsat visits camp at Konjic.

12 400 Serbian prisoners treated according to

13 international codes. Chetnik gangs massacre Muslims,

14 Assa'ad Taha.

15 Picture on picture, a programme aired by Croatian

16 TV, comprised several interviews with Muslim prisoners

17 who had been released recently within the prisoner

18 exchange process between the two sides. They spoke of

19 the savage torture they had suffered and the effects

20 were clearly seen on the faces and bodies. This

21 programme preoccupied me as I made my way to the Serbian

22 prisoners' concentration camp in Konjic, a city where

23 the Muslim majority, about 50 kilometres from Sarajevo.

24 Would they also be subjected to such brutal torture?

25 A few minutes later we arrived at the place. It

Page 5823

1 was originally a military barracks which had been

2 captured by the Muslims. The huge gate opened and we

3 passed through and escorted by the commander, we made a

4 quick tour of the camp before we entered one of the

5 wards to see a vivid picture and another side of the

6 tragedy resulting from this accursed war. The camp

7 commander, Zdravko Mucic, said there were over 400

8 prisoners, some of whom had been captured during fierce

9 battles and had revealed the whereabouts of some of

10 their colleagues of the Serbian militias in hiding.

11 Their fate will be decided, he said, when military

12 operations are halted. Even though we have seen most of

13 them actually shooting down our old men and women, we do

14 not beat or torture them or violate human rights. They

15 shall be given a fair trial. We do not wish to be

16 unjust to anyone, despite all the injustices we have

17 suffered. The camp commander, a Croatian but close to

18 the Muslim command, said: Each one of these prisoners

19 carried two weapons given to him by the Serbian

20 command. Fortunately, lists of names proving that fell

21 into our hands. The mere sight of them, he said, pains

22 me deeply. I would like to avenge the blood of the

23 innocent victims, but I have my orders not to use any

24 forms of violence with them and I respect my command.

25 After a brief pause, he said: I pity those people

Page 5824

1 who acceded to their extremist leadership. But, if we

2 were to release them in the morning, they would be

3 fighting us begin in the evening. They have no other

4 objective but to dominate all other people living with

5 them. In this city, they constitute 15.5 per cent of

6 the population, yet their ambition is to dominate it.

7 The commander, of Croatian origin, said that

8 Croatian leadership were currently playing the same role

9 as the Serbian leadership in mobilising their people

10 against the Muslims. This will involve the Croatian

11 people in battles and confusion with the Muslims.

12 However, I decided to end the conversation there

13 as I was anxious to complete my mission.

14 We started at a medium sized room which, I was

15 told, was the medical clinic for treating prisoners. It

16 contained seven beds occupied by seven prisoners. The

17 beds and woolen blankets looked very clean. To the left

18 there were medicines on the table before which sat a

19 captured Serbian doctor. It appeared that all the

20 wounds were slight. I spoke to one of them and he

21 said: My name is Risto Mrkajic from Bradina. I was hit

22 by a bullet while sitting in my house. I surrendered to

23 the Muslim forces when I realised that I had gone

24 astray. I did not personally hear, nor did I learn from

25 friends and relatives, of the massacre of Muslims in my

Page 5825

1 area. However, I heard on the radio and saw on TV from

2 Foca news of these massacres.

3 Another one said: I surrendered after I became

4 convinced of the deviations and wrongdoings of my

5 commanders. I realised that Muslims were right and for

6 their sake I opposed my Serbian relatives and brothers

7 and began shooting at them. Why are you here then,

8 I asked. But he kept silent. After hearing such movie

9 like (dramatic) answers, I decided I should go to

10 another ward. It was larger than the first. Prisoners

11 sat leaning against the four walls with two other lines

12 sitting in the middle. This ward also appeared very

13 clean. I quickly scanned the faces before me, but I did

14 not see any traces of torture or beating. At least this

15 is what I saw. I spoke to several other prisoners and

16 their answers fell into two main groups. The first

17 group, which refused to abandon the narrow minded

18 nationalistic views that had triggered the war, gave

19 very ambiguous answers to my question. The second

20 group, which sought to escape punishment at any price,

21 was willing to express regret and heap condemnation on

22 the Serbian leadership in Belgrade. In any case, it was

23 obvious that the Serbian prisoners were allowed a large

24 degree of freedom of speech. For example (Midinic) from

25 Bradina, believed that the problem was due to the

Page 5826

1 failure of his command to inform them that Muslim forces

2 had issued a warning, following which the city was

3 attacked. As a result of conflicting orders, the city

4 fell into Muslim hands. He went on to say: We did not

5 really have the desire to fight our Muslim and Croatian

6 brothers... but the command hid many things from us.

7 When I asked him: were the massacres of innocent victims

8 hidden from you, he replied: I never knew that massacres

9 were being perpetrated. I asked his fellow prisoner

10 Georgi Jiberko: Do you consider Bosnia an independent

11 republic or part of Serbia? He hung his head and looked

12 at the floor, saying: some countries have recognised it

13 as an independent republic. Turning to Klimenta Jelko

14 sitting in the opposite row, I asked: have you heard of

15 any incident of rape committed by Muslims against

16 Serbian women? He replied: No, we have never heard of

17 Muslims committing rape. On the contrary, I heard of

18 the mass rape of Muslim women in Bjile.

19 Between the questions and answers, I noticed that

20 the camp commanders were making tremendous effort to

21 control their anger. From time to time they whispered

22 in my ears: This one killed a Muslim... That one is a

23 murderer... This one has committed rape. It was indeed

24 a highly dramatic and tragic situation. The two parties

25 in this camp had one day been school and work mates and

Page 5827

1 there were cases of intermarriage. They shared many

2 stories of human interest as well as memoirs of

3 festivals and burials. How could this suddenly turn

4 into a fire that consumed all? This is what I asked

5 another prisoner, who said: I think that in my area at

6 least all the Serbs blindly followed their leaders who

7 tried to involve the largest number of people in the

8 war. The Serbian Army and party, he continued, armed

9 every one of our people in Bosnia, even in this area,

10 which was impossible to dominate, since we constituted

11 only 13 per cent of the population. But it was

12 necessary for wars to break out and volcanoes of anger

13 to erupt.

14 I asked another if he thought that Muslim

15 prisoners captured by the Serbs were receiving the same

16 treatment that Serbian prisoners were getting here. He

17 said: The treatment here is good and we have no

18 complaints. But I do not know what it is like in the

19 Serbian concentration camps. I heard it was brutal and

20 that there were some cases of murder.

21 The cell block for hard cases.

22 Following this heated session, I decided to walk.

23 But the camp commander said: Wait a minute. I shall

24 drive you to the cell block reserved for dangerous hard

25 cases where you will meet one of the Chetnik leaders.

Page 5828

1 These armed gangs were first formed in 1940 and

2 perpetrated the most brutal and vicious attack against

3 Muslims and Croats alike. It is common knowledge that

4 if they entered a village they would leave nothing

5 alive...They killed every man, beast, plant or bird,

6 and even burnt down houses and they did exactly that in

7 the present war.

8 They brought the prisoner for us to see. His name

9 was Rajko Krjig and he scowled as he came out. I looked

10 at his hands to make sure he was not carrying a weapon.

11 Introducing him, the camp commander said: this man was

12 responsible for cutting off the road between Mostar and

13 Sarajevo and also for the distribution of arms. The man

14 however, said: I had no knowledge of the arms

15 distribution. It was done outside the scope of my

16 authority and in co-ordination with the Serbian party to

17 which I do not belong. I asked: But why were you

18 carrying weapons?

19 I was a former officer, he said, so I took my

20 place on the Crisis Committee to defend the city. To

21 defend it against whom? I asked.

22 To defend our area...we had no aim to attack

23 anyone, he said.

24 To defend against whom, I repeated?

25 This is a very large issue, he said, that involves

Page 5829

1 military and political aspects. In any case, we are

2 linked by neighbourly relations...

3 Here he was loudly interrupted by everyone: The

4 camp commander, the guards, the escort and the

5 translator, all of them vehemently asking about the kind

6 of neighbourliness that allowed for the massacre of

7 neighbours.

8 The commander then posed the question: Who gave

9 you the right to cut off the Mostar Sarajevo road?

10 No one had that right, he replied.

11 How did Serbia help you do that, asked the

12 commander.

13 The man replied very coldly: We blame the Serbian

14 leadership for not giving us the necessary assistance.

15 I then concluded it was time to end the conversation.

16 We will however continue with our story because the

17 military command of the neighbouring area had agreed to

18 help us reach the front lines with the Serbs... but it

19 will be in another despatch.

20 MS. McHENRY: Thank you. Sir, in the article you

21 talk about three different areas where prisoners were

22 kept, the ward for sick persons, the very large room and

23 the cell for hard cases; correct?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Did you yourself go into each of these three different

Page 5830

1 areas?

2 A. I went to the barracks or the ward where the detainees

3 were held and I went to the place where the patients

4 were kept, and then I went to the entrance to the gate

5 of another room where hard cases were kept. I did not

6 go in, but a man was taken out and I mentioned him in

7 the article, from there.

8 Q. Why did you not also go into the area reserved for hard

9 cases?

10 A. I was not allowed to do so.

11 Q. Can you estimate, sir, how long you stayed in the area

12 where sick prisoners were kept?

13 A. I was there very briefly, I do not remember exactly. It

14 was for a very short period of time.

15 Q. Do you remember anything about how the prisoners --

16 about the atmosphere in this particular ward as compared

17 to the other ward you went to?

18 A. Do you mean the camp or the area of Konjic?

19 Q. I mean: did you notice anything about the atmosphere in

20 the area where sick prisoners were kept as opposed to

21 the atmosphere in the large ward where other detainees

22 were kept?

23 A. You mean the difference between the room where the

24 detainees were kept and the room where the sick people

25 were kept?

Page 5831

1 Q. Yes, sir.

2 A. In the room where the sick people were kept, it was

3 different, it was a small room, and the sick people were

4 on beds, whereas in the other bigger room for detainees,

5 they were sitting on the floor.

6 Q. Did one or other of these areas seem noticeably more

7 tense or more relaxed or more serious or anything like

8 that?

9 A. The general atmosphere was fine, but, of course, it was

10 a camp where people were not free. But the general

11 impression that a visitor would have to that camp was

12 not that it was a place where torture was being done,

13 but that was a general impression that was given very

14 quickly. Of course, the persons in charge of the camp

15 knew that we were coming on the next day to visit the

16 camp. However, I would like to say once again that the

17 general atmosphere that one could feel there was not an

18 atmosphere of great stress and tension.

19 Q. During the time you were in the camp, sir, did you

20 personally observe any mistreatment of the prisoners?

21 A. No.

22 Q. Sir, your article reports that in the large ward, you

23 quickly scanned the faces of the prisoners and did not

24 see any evidence of torture and mistreatment, correct?

25 A. Yes, that is what I said.

Page 5832

1 Q. Did you have occasion to observe the prisoners closely?

2 A. Yes, as I mentioned, I went into the various rooms and

3 as I said, each ward was big where the detainees were

4 sitting by the walls and in some wards they were sitting

5 also in the middle of the rooms. There were no beds,

6 they were sitting on the floor and as I said, it was a

7 quick visit and I was able to ask some questions to some

8 detainees and then I immediately left the camp.

9 Q. Did you observe any injuries on any prisoners while you

10 were there?

11 A. Perhaps there were two or three who had very slight

12 injuries with little bandages or plaster, but, of

13 course, one should remember that it was a battle area

14 and as I understood, some people were detained or were

15 arrested during the fighting and others were taken from

16 their own neighbourhoods, either they gave themselves in

17 or they were arrested from their area of residence.

18 Q. With respect to the prisoners you saw with bandages or

19 plaster or other things, do you have any specific

20 information on how the prisoners received those

21 injuries?

22 A. I do not have any particular information, but the

23 impression I got then was that they were a result of the

24 fighting that happened before they were arrested, and

25 I repeat once again, that is what I saw. I can only say

Page 5833

1 that was what I saw or what I was told, I do not know

2 exactly what was happening then.

3 Q. I would now ask that Prosecution Exhibit 167 be placed

4 under the ELMO with the assistance of the usher. The

5 original of 167, that is the article of July 24th.

6 Sir, can you just please identify by pointing and

7 actually point on the machine, not on the screen in

8 front of you, what the pictures you took are?

9 A. The ones to the left --

10 Q. I am going to ask that you actually point on that one.

11 A. The picture to the left is a picture of one of the wards

12 where, as I said, the detainees or prisoners were

13 sitting on the floor. Then in the bottom there is the

14 room where the sick people were kept. The picture after

15 that is the picture of one of the detainees. I do not

16 remember exactly, but perhaps that was the man who was

17 taken out of the room or the cell for hard cases. On

18 the top, there is a picture of one of the commanders in

19 the camp during his talk with the detainee, and then at

20 the bottom, a military truck in a different area.

21 Q. Sir, with respect to the picture above with one of the

22 camp commanders, do you now remember whether or not that

23 is the Croatian camp commander you have testified to, or

24 one of the other commanders?

25 A. I do not remember if he was the Croat leader, but he was

Page 5834

1 one of the persons in charge of the camp.

2 MS. McHENRY: Thank you. Your Honours, I would now ask

3 that Prosecution Exhibit 167 be admitted into evidence.

4 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Are there any views on that?

5 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honour, I would just like to make a brief

6 comment. I think ordinarily such a newspaper article

7 would not be admissible. It is completely hearsay.

8 I think under the circumstances here today, this witness

9 has basically used it to refresh his recollection which

10 would be the appropriate way for it to be used.

11 However, I have no specific objection to this particular

12 exhibit. I do not want, however, to waive any future

13 objection to any other newspaper article that the

14 Prosecution might want to drag in here, so I just want

15 to say that basically by keeping silent, I am not

16 instituting a waiver process.

17 MR. MORAN: Your Honour, I have no objection, but as a former

18 journalist, I suspect this gentleman would like to keep

19 his originals. I would have no objection to

20 substituting photocopies for the original if that is

21 what the -- if the witness would like to keep the

22 originals.

23 MR. O'SULLIVAN: Your Honours, we would join the remarks made

24 by my friend Mr. Ackerman.

25 MR. OLUJIC: Your Honours, we fully subscribe to what has

Page 5835

1 been said by our learned colleague Mr. Ackerman. We, of

2 course, agree that the witness, if he so wants, keeps

3 the original and that we should collate the photostated

4 copy with the original for our purposes.

5 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Exhibit 167 is admitted.

6 MS. McHENRY: Thank you, your Honours. If it is the case

7 that we are going to substitute the photocopies, I would

8 just ask that both the Defence counsel and your Honours

9 be permitted to view the original to determine whether

10 or not you think the quality of the photos is better in

11 one such that we should keep the original or should

12 not. The witness has indicated he is willing to provide

13 the court with the originals, although if it is not

14 necessary, he would prefer to give it back, so I would

15 ask just with the usher's assistance that the original

16 be shown to Defence counsel and your Honours for your

17 determination.

18 Going forward now, sir, after your visit to the

19 camp -- sir, after your visit to the camp, did you go

20 anywhere else that day?

21 A. After the camp in the evening of that day or at night,

22 we met the commander between two visits. I do not

23 remember up to now if I actually went to another area,

24 but as far as I remember, the visit of the camp took

25 place early in the day and then later there was a visit

Page 5836

1 to the commander of the area. One should take into

2 consideration the distances between areas and the time

3 needed to wait for the preparation of visits.

4 Q. How did you know that Mr. Zejnil Din was the commander of

5 the area?

6 A. He was introduced to us that way by the people who

7 accompanied us and who was responsible in general for

8 the area. We were told he was the commander of the

9 area.

10 Q. Was it also before you had gone actually to the area,

11 when you were meeting with the Mr. Rusim Haji or anyone

12 else in Konjic, had you also been told anything about

13 the position of Mr. Zejnil Din?

14 A. In the evening of the first day when we met Mr. Rusim

15 Haji, he promised us to help us meet the general

16 commander of the area, Mr. Zejnil Din and his escorts

17 also the next day promised us the same thing, and the

18 next day, indeed, we went to visit the commander and

19 when we went up to him in a high area he was at a table

20 and on top of it there was written "General commander of

21 the area".

22 Q. Approximately how long was your meeting with the

23 commander?

24 A. I think it was no more than half a hour, because we were

25 in a hurry to go back before night would fall.

Page 5837

1 Q. Did you learn anything about this person's background,

2 where he lived before the war or what kind of military

3 background he had?

4 A. He was introduced to us, or what they told us at the

5 time, I was a businessman living in Germany, but after

6 the outbreak of the war he left Germany and came to

7 Bosnia to take part in the Defence of areas where

8 Muslims lived.

9 Q. Sir, I would direct your attention to Prosecution

10 Exhibit 168 and ask if you recognise the picture of the

11 commander and if so, if you would point out that

12 picture?

13 A. Yes, the picture in the middle is the picture of the

14 commander and next to it there is the tent which was in

15 that very same place, and it had some communications

16 equipment. Then there is a picture of some of the

17 fighters, but I do not remember if it was taken at the

18 same site where we visited the commander or whether it

19 was taken in another site. As for those flags, I think

20 that picture was taken in another place, not in the

21 place where we met with the commander.

22 MS. McHENRY: Thank you. Your Honours, I would now move

23 Prosecution Exhibit 168 into evidence. Any observations

24 on 168?

25 MR. ACKERMAN: Yes, your Honours. This seems to be being

Page 5838

1 offered just for the one photograph that is contained on

2 it and not the language contained within it, since it

3 has not been read to us or referred to in any manner, so

4 I think I would object to the admission of anything but

5 the photographic portion of it. In addition, just as a

6 possible aid, if we are going to give the originals of

7 these back to this gentleman, it occurs to me that our

8 audio visual department may be able to make copies of

9 the photographs appearing on here that are much better

10 than what we are able to accomplish with a copy

11 machine. Just looking at what is showing up on the

12 ELMO, it is better than the xerox machine copies that we

13 have. Maybe that is the way to accomplish both of these

14 tasks. Thank you.

15 MS. RESIDOVIC: Your Honours, I should like to subscribe to

16 the arguments presented here by my colleague Ackerman.

17 I believe that as far as this article is concerned, we

18 are in no situation to admit it as evidence of the

19 Prosecution because this photograph cannot be the basis

20 for admitting the whole article. At all events, he

21 believe that this decision can be only taken after

22 cross-examination by the Defence counsel. Thank you.

23 MS. McHENRY: Your Honour, we do not have any objection

24 just to admitting it for purposes of the photograph

25 because Defence counsel is correct, that is the main

Page 5839

1 reason for which we seek to introduce it. I believe any

2 other relevant information contained in the article has

3 already been testified to by the witness as being part

4 of his independent recollection.

5 MR. OLUJIC: Your Honours, as far as this article is

6 concerned, we are in principle against admitting

7 articles as part of the file, but however not even this

8 photograph presented by the Prosecution is not of such

9 significance as to be used for the necessary

10 identification, so, having said this, we are against it

11 because the witness has not stated his views as to the

12 contents of the article, so we feel that it should not

13 be admitted until all the circumstances have been

14 clarified by the witness.

15 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Actually, you only want the photograph.

16 MS. McHENRY: That is correct, your Honour, so we are happy

17 to admit it for purposes of that photograph only.

18 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Since there is no objection to the

19 photograph, it is admitted.

20 MS. McHENRY: Sir, where did you go after your meeting with

21 the general commander?

22 A. We went back to Split.

23 Q. Moving forward a bit, Mr. Harraz, after your trip to

24 Konjic and other areas of Bosnia-Herzegovina, did you

25 have an opportunity to observe the documentary prepared

Page 5840

1 by your colleague, Mr. Aamish, I believe the cameraman

2 originally from Libya?

3 A. Yes, I did see it at the time.

4 Q. Did you see all the footage taken by Mr. Aamish or just

5 what became part of the final documentary?

6 A. I saw the final film at the time, as I said, but I did

7 not see all the footage that he took.

8 Q. Do you have a copy of any of the film taken by

9 Mr. Aymish?

10 A. No, I do not.

11 MS. McHENRY: Your Honour, that concludes our

12 examination-in-chief. Thank you.

13 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Any cross-examinations?

14 MR. O'SULLIVAN: Yes, your Honours. We will proceed in this

15 order. First counsel for Mr. Landzo, second counsel for

16 Mr. Delalic, third counsel for Mr. Mucic and

17 fourth counsel for Mr. Delic.

18 Cross-examined by MR. ACKERMAN

19 Q. May I proceed?

20 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Yes, you can proceed.

21 MR. ACKERMAN: Thank you very much, your Honour. Mr. Harraz,

22 my name is John Ackerman, I represent an accused in this

23 case by the name of Esad Landzo. I take it that is a

24 name that is not familiar to you?

25 A. Yes, indeed, that is a name I do not know.

Page 5841

1 Q. The questions I am going to ask you will be brief and

2 I think simple, and I suspect they can be answered with

3 a simple yes. If you would like to clarify your answer

4 to any extent, you can advise me and you may do that,

5 but I will try to keep them as simple as possible.

6 I take it first of all that you have no

7 relationship with an organisation in Belgrade by the

8 name of the Association of Detainees, and that you were

9 not sent here by that association or briefed by that

10 association before you came here, correct?

11 A. No, I have no relation with it.

12 Q. Let me now then direct your attention to the time that

13 you visited the Celebici camp, the detention camp that

14 you have been talking about. I think you have told us

15 that your best memory is that that would have been in

16 late June, maybe early July, of 1992; correct?

17 A. That is what I remember, but with great difficulty and

18 I am not sure of the time.

19 Q. All right. You know that it was within probably two

20 weeks before the article was published in the newspaper;

21 that helps you get close at least, correct?

22 A. Yes, the time that passed between the visit and the

23 publication was about two weeks.

24 Q. You have no reason to come before this Tribunal and

25 attempt to mislead or misdirect this court in any

Page 5842

1 degree, do you?

2 A. Of course not. I came here to say what I saw, whether

3 it would be for the benefit of this party or the other.

4 Q. One of the buildings that you visited while you were at

5 this detention facility was what was a medical facility,

6 a little hospital, so to speak, correct?

7 A. It was a room in the camp that was especially for sick

8 people. There were patients sleeping or lying on beds

9 and there were some medicines there for them.

10 Q. And the room itself was clean?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. The beds appeared clean?

13 A. What I saw in general was that the conditions were good.

14 Q. You saw medicines there?

15 A. Yes, I saw some medicines there.

16 Q. You saw a doctor there?

17 A. I do not remember that, but when I read the article

18 I remembered that there was a Serb doctor who seemed to

19 be from the camp also.

20 Q. Okay. Just observing the patients that you saw in that

21 room on that day, you would not have been able to

22 conclude that any of them were victims of beatings or

23 tortures apart from what wounds they might have received

24 in actual fighting?

25 A. What I remember, and I am sorry to keep repeating "what

Page 5843

1 I remember", but the events took place five years ago so

2 what I remember is they were sick people, they were not

3 injured.

4 Q. You also visited a much larger detention area, the one

5 that is in the photograph that you took where there were

6 a number of people seated on the floor?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Did that building appear to you to be clean?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Were there any noxious odours in that building that you

11 noticed?

12 A. No, I did not notice anything of the kind.

13 Q. Were all of the prisoners that you saw in that building

14 sitting up on the floor, or were some lying around

15 moaning?

16 A. No, they looked exactly as they seem in the picture in

17 the article.

18 Q. Did you see anyone in that building for the time that

19 you were in there that you could conclude had been

20 subjected to beatings or torture, from what you could

21 observe?

22 A. No.

23 Q. You talked to some of the prisoners at that location,

24 did you not?

25 A. Yes.

Page 5844

1 Q. At least one of those prisoners that you talked to told

2 you that the treatment there was very good and that he

3 had no complaints?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Did you or the cameraman or anyone that was with you

6 while you were there beat or torture any of the

7 prisoners yourselves?

8 A. No. We were on a journalistic mission.

9 Q. If I told you that there has been testimony in this case

10 that you and your colleagues engaged in the beating of

11 prisoners, would you say that that is absolutely untrue?

12 A. Of course.

13 Q. You also went, did you not, to an area that they told

14 you was a detention facility for what was referred to as

15 the hard cases?

16 A. It was not a special camp, but a room within the camp.

17 Q. You have told us that one of those prisoners was brought

18 outside and you observed that particular individual.

19 A. Yes, he was taken out of the room and we talked to him.

20 Q. In your observations of that particular individual, did

21 you see any indication that that person had been

22 mistreated, beaten, tortured in any way?

23 A. No, there was nothing on the outside that could give

24 that impression.

25 Q. Now let me go just to one other brief area. Also during

Page 5845

1 that trip, you visited the city of Mostar, did you not?

2 A. I remember that I visited Mostar before going to Konjic,

3 that is what I remember.

4 Q. Okay. I think it was in Mostar, at least according to

5 your writings, that you visited some members of the

6 Bosnian army, Muslim soldiers, and talked with some of

7 the soldiers, correct?

8 A. I do not remember now what happened in Mostar.

9 Q. Okay. During any part then of your visit to Konjic or

10 the detention camp at Konjic, did you see anything that

11 made you feel like prisoners were being mistreated in a

12 way that you should report it to some kind of an

13 international humanitarian organisation or anything of

14 that nature?

15 A. On the contrary, as I said in the article that was

16 published, I did not see any signs of cruel treatment or

17 mistreatment of the detainees.

18 Q. I take it you did not see any evidence by looking at any

19 of the detainees that they were being subjected to

20 starvation?

21 A. No.

22 Q. They appeared to be well-fed, as far as you could tell?

23 A. I cannot judge, but what I saw -- at the end of the

24 visit they were bringing in some food to the prisoners.

25 Q. I take it you have seen photographs from some of the

Page 5846

1 Serb camps in that area where the prisoners looked

2 extremely emaciated, clearly had been starved, very much

3 like survivors of the German concentration camps during

4 the war; correct?

5 A. I saw that in the media, not with my own eyes.

6 Q. My question is: you did not see any prisoners at

7 Celebici that looked like that, did you?

8 A. No.

9 MR. ACKERMAN: That is all I have. Thank you very much.

10 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Thank you very much. I think we will

11 have a break now and come back at 12.00.

12 (11.30 am)

13 (A short break)

14 (12.05 pm)

15 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Kindly remind him he is still on his

16 oath.

17 THE REGISTRAR: Mr. Harraz, I remind you you are still under

18 oath.

19 A. Yes.

20 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Ms. Residovic, you may proceed.

21 Cross-examined by MS. RESIDOVIC

22 Q. Thank you, your Honours. Mr. Harraz, good morning.

23 A. Good morning.

24 Q. I thank you. I shall greet you in your way. Salam

25 Aleikum, Mr. Harraz. Mr. Harraz, you have testified

Page 5847

1 before this court that in July 1992, you visited the

2 region of the commune of Konjic --

3 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honour, I think the translation is not

4 coming through to the interpreter.

5 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: The interpretation is not coming

6 through, I hear, is it. Thank you very much. Can you

7 start all over again?

8 MS. RESIDOVIC: Thank you very much. I should like first

9 of all to introduce myself to you, Mr. Harraz. I am

10 Edina Residovic, I am counsel for Mr. Zejnil Delalic.

11 Mr. Harraz, you have testified before this court that in

12 July of 1992, you visited the area of the commune of

13 Konjic, and that after that you wrote a number of

14 articles; is that correct?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. In fact, Mr. Harraz, in connection with that visit, you

17 wrote three articles; is that so, which were published

18 on 24th, 25th and 26th July; is that so?

19 A. That is so. That is correct.

20 Q. In addition, Mr. Harraz, on 7th March this year, you made

21 a statement to Ms. Sabine Manke, investigator for the

22 Prosecution of the International Tribunal?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. You have also testified, Mr. Harraz, for the sake of this

25 testimony also you reminded yourself subsequently of

Page 5848

1 what you had written in those articles in 1992; is that

2 so?

3 A. This is correct.

4 Q. Hence I should like to ask you, Mr. Harraz, since my

5 questions will be linked to your articles, to have these

6 articles before you so as to be able to refresh your

7 memory in connection with my questions.

8 Mr. Harraz, is it true that in those articles -- in

9 the statement made to Ms. Sabine Manke as well as today

10 before the Tribunal, you said that a portion of what you

11 have written in your articles was the result of your

12 direct insight into things?

13 A. It is not my viewpoint, it is what I have seen and

14 witnessed.

15 Q. Yes, my next question was precisely to be one to which

16 you have already provided an answer, so you have seen

17 things, you saw some things and you learned about other

18 facts from third persons; is that so?

19 A. Yes, some of what I had written is what I have witnessed

20 myself, but there might be some information that was

21 given to me by the people that were with the commander

22 or that escorted us that I might have mentioned also.

23 Q. Mr. Harraz, you only spent a short time in Konjic and you

24 had no occasion to verify for yourself things which you

25 were told by other persons.

Page 5849

1 A. My mission was not to verify facts, my mission was to

2 describe the general situation in the area.

3 Q. Precisely in view of the nature of your mission, you did

4 not seek, nor did you see any documentation in the

5 Konjic municipality; is that so?

6 A. No, I did not see any documents.

7 Q. Mr. Harraz, you have also testified before this court

8 that you had an interpreter.

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. That is because you do not speak the Bosnian language;

11 is that true?

12 A. Yes, with the exception of "dobro dan"

13 Q. Just like my Arabic. Mr. Harraz can you then agree with

14 me that what you found out on the basis of accounts of

15 third persons largely depended also on the precision of

16 the interpretation in regard to the things that were

17 being discussed?

18 A. Of course, the interpreter may have a positive or a

19 negative role in conveying the reality.

20 Q. So your articles are a general picture, and your

21 impression of what you had seen at that time in the area

22 of the commune of Konjic?

23 A. This is correct, and to confirm that, I did mention that

24 in the article; that is to say that I mentioned "this is

25 what I have witnessed as a first view of this site".

Page 5850

1 Q. In relation to the true position of certain persons, you

2 also relied upon the information which was provided to

3 you by third persons; is that so?

4 A. Yes, the leadership that was present in the area by way

5 of escorts and other responsible people who provided us

6 with information.

7 Q. That is probably the reason, Mr. Harraz, why, in your

8 articles and in what you have stated before this

9 Tribunal today, there appears some -- in fact, some

10 significant differences in designating the functions of

11 various individuals; is that so?

12 A. Would you be kind enough to give me an example?

13 Q. In your article, Mr. Harraz, this gentleman Rusmir,

14 I believe, that is the gentleman in question, although

15 I am not quite sure what you name him, you call him in

16 your article the mayor; then in your third article you

17 say that you had paid a visit to the war presidency

18 where you conducted a conversation. In your statement

19 to Miss Sabine Manke, you said that the local governor

20 had been in question, and today as far as I could

21 gather, you said that he was the political leader of the

22 area.

23 A. Yes, this is correct. This person might include all

24 these posts, but as I have mentioned before, there was

25 no evident hierarchical division and these titles are

Page 5851

1 the titles that were given to me at the time.

2 Q. In this example which I have used of Mr. Rusmir, is it

3 not that it is in the same way that you learned about

4 the other time that you met in the area?

5 A. I referred to the post and the responsibility in

6 accordance with the information that was given to me, in

7 accordance to what was said to me in the area and not by

8 the leadership in Sarajevo, for example.

9 Q. Mr Harraz, are you aware of the fact that it was

10 precisely at that time that there was a certain Arabic

11 organisation in Konjic which was engaged in humanitarian

12 aid, the objective of which was to find out facts which

13 would be of assistance in collecting such aid and relief

14 supplies for the suffering population?

15 A. In Bosnia-Herzegovina in general there were Arab relief

16 agencies, many of them, but in Konjic in particular I do

17 not remember if there was any such agency at that time.

18 Q. Mr. Harraz, was it one of the intentions of your account

19 of the situation in Konjic to acquaint the Arabic public

20 better with the difficult circumstances in this region

21 and to bolster efforts in providing humanitarian relief?

22 A. Yes, it was a journalistic mission in my capacity as a

23 journalist to give the Arab population a viewpoint on

24 what is happening in that part of the world.

25 Q. Mr. Harraz, is that the reason why you perhaps in a

Page 5852

1 certain way placed more stress on the option of this

2 people towards Islam?

3 A. Would you be kind enough to rephrase your question,

4 please?

5 Q. I will start with another question. In that area,

6 Mr. Harraz, you did not meet any people who were

7 fanatical Islamists, who were committed to hatred?

8 A. I do not believe that in Bosnia at that time there were

9 people or fanatic trends; in fact the Muslims were very

10 far from their religion.

11 Q. Irrespective of the fact that they had suffered very

12 much prior to your visit, amongst the fighters you did

13 not feel that they needed to retaliate?

14 A. No, what I felt was that there was a great desire to

15 defend their area, and they truly believed that they had

16 no other option but to defend their area because they

17 have nowhere else to go or no other party that can come

18 to their aid. The general feeling that I had was they

19 had to defend themselves in order to defend the areas in

20 which they live.

21 Q. Mr. Harraz, you said that in the evening you visited

22 Mr. Hadzihuseinovic. Is it true that Mr. Hadzihuseinovic

23 gave you data regarding the structure of the population,

24 the aggression and the current military situation in the

25 area?

Page 5853

1 A. The information that was given to me -- as I said, he

2 was the governor of the city, or it can be explained as

3 the military governor. Added to that he had political

4 responsibilities and in that capacity we interviewed him

5 at the time.

6 Q. And Mr. Hadzihuseinovic also told you that there were

7 very many refugees who had arrived to Konjic at that

8 time from the areas which were under temporary

9 occupation?

10 A. He did speak of the humanitarian situation and the

11 situation of the refugees, but I do not remember

12 details.

13 Q. But Mr. Harraz, you probably recall that he told you that

14 at that time, the humanitarian situation, the supply of

15 the population and the refugees was very difficult

16 indeed?

17 A. Yes, he did mention that and it was a known fact to

18 everyone, not just to people in Konjic but in other

19 regions of Bosnia as well.

20 Q. You have testified before this Tribunal that you had

21 learned that hierarchy was not quite clear in the

22 governmental set-up, and that you found out these things

23 on the basis of your general knowledge about

24 Bosnia-Herzegovina; is that so?

25 A. Yes, I believe that at the time, this hierarchical

Page 5854

1 set-up was not there and every region, one way or

2 another, took care of defending their borders or the

3 internal affairs but, of course, there was some kind of

4 communication between the area, but the general remark

5 is that there was no clear administrative structure.

6 Q. I thank you for your opinion generally about the

7 situation in Bosnia-Herzegovina, but can you confirm

8 that after all, you did not thoroughly perceive the

9 situation in the sense of the organisation of authority

10 in the commune of Konjic?

11 A. No, of course not. This was not my mission, and

12 I repeat that I spent a relatively short time in the

13 area, and I did describe what was said to me and what

14 I had witnessed. I did not seek to verify the

15 information because this kind of media or articles does

16 not aim at providing evidence but to describe events in

17 a certain area.

18 Q. So although you talked to the mayor during that

19 conversation, in the course of your stay you did find

20 out that the town of Konjic in which authority

21 structures did function in a certain way, was

22 handicapped by various blockades mounted by Serbian

23 forces, by the Serbian forces but already at that time

24 also by the Croatians?

25 A. What I remember is that they were subject to an attack

Page 5855

1 by the Serbs. As for the Croatian side, I believe that

2 at the time matters were still relatively quiet between

3 the two parties; that is between Muslims and Croats, at

4 least on the outside, in a general outlook.

5 Q. Mr. Harraz, I am actually -- I actually want to ask you

6 questions so that things could be clear for us all

7 here. I believe that it is very important that you as a

8 witness of that period should be before this court,

9 because the number of persons as courageous as you were

10 who decided to go to Bosnia in those times is really

11 small. I believe that because of this you will

12 understand the nature of the question which I am about

13 to ask you.

14 You have just said that you have witnessed the

15 shelling and the bombardment of Konjic from Serbian

16 positions; is that so?

17 A. Yes, the area was subject to shelling by Serbs.

18 Q. During your short stay you could see vast destruction to

19 housing and other structures throughout the city; is

20 that a fact?

21 A. Yes, Konjic did have many areas that were destroyed, as

22 well as the destruction in many other areas.

23 Q. Mr. Harraz, you described in some more detail in the

24 article which was published on July 24th 1992 which was

25 also read before this court, therefore in connection

Page 5856

1 with this article I should only like to ask you a few

2 questions. You entered and you saw a room which was the

3 infirmary, the sick ward.

4 A. You mean the room where the sick people were?

5 Q. Yes. What you have written in your article of 27th is

6 the result of what you personally saw.

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. You came in and you saw this hangar, this large room in

9 which there were many prisoners; is that so?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. What you have written in your article about how this

12 room looked, how the prisoners looked and about the

13 conditions which prevailed in the room is also the

14 result of what you saw for yourself; is that true?

15 A. Yes, that is true, I wrote that on the basis of what

16 I saw myself, not on the basis of what anybody else told

17 me.

18 Q. The photograph which has been shown before this court

19 which you said you thought depicted the person which you

20 think was the organiser, who was taken out from that

21 special cell for the dangerous, is the person of whom

22 you personally took a photograph; is that so?

23 A. I said this morning that this man -- I gathered that he

24 was in that hard cell block, but I cannot be sure that

25 this is the person that we see in the picture, that he

Page 5857

1 was the man in the hard cell block.

2 Q. The person was taken out of that room; if I remind you,

3 if I could refresh your memory, is Rajko Dordic, the man

4 who was known as the organiser of the Defence of Bradina

5 and of the arming of Serbs; is that so?

6 A. The information that I put down in the article is based

7 on what I was told about the man, the man who was taken

8 out of that special place, but I repeat that I am not

9 sure whether this is the picture of that man, the

10 picture that is in the article.

11 Q. I am not asking you about the photograph, Mr. Harraz, but

12 about the talk which you had with the man which you

13 referred to in your article.

14 A. The information in the article is the information given

15 to me and the talk in the article is the talk that went

16 on between me and the man.

17 Q. So you witnessed the fact that he was told in your

18 presence that he was responsible for cutting off the

19 Mostar/Sarajevo road?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. You also witnessed his reply, namely that he was

22 dissatisfied with the assistance which the leadership of

23 Serbia had extended to them to aid their resistance.

24 A. What is related in the article is the talk that I had

25 with the man. Of course now I do not remember the exact

Page 5858

1 details of the conversation I had with him. What there

2 is in the article is what was said between me and him.

3 Q. This man, as far as you could see, did not exhibit any

4 consequences of torture?

5 A. No.

6 Q. That man was not tortured in your presence?

7 A. No person was tortured before us.

8 Q. Mr Harraz, I should like to ask you several questions

9 related to your article of July 25th . So you were

10 given authorisation to visit the frontline, the line of

11 separation with the Serbs; is that so?

12 A. Yes, it was a confrontation site with the Serbs, but the

13 area I visited was a mountainous area and there was an

14 exchange of fire between the two parties.

15 Q. You can testify that around 2.00, through a very bad and

16 dangerous road, you climbed up high into the mountains,

17 up to the first command post of the artillery?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. If you recall your article, after these two hours of a

20 ride that was really dangerous, you arrived at the

21 command post of the Bosnian artillery, where you saw, as

22 means of combat of the Territorial Defence of Konjic, a

23 cannon dating back to 1918?

24 A. Yes, we visited three areas, the area of the commander,

25 the area where there was confrontation and fighting, and

Page 5859

1 the area where the camp of detainees was located. I do

2 not remember whether there were other areas that we

3 visited.

4 Q. So if you recall what you had written in your article,

5 this first position, you saw a gun which had been taken

6 from the museum in Jablanica and was adapted to some

7 sort of defensive combat, defensive fighting?

8 A. Yes, that is true.

9 Q. There you talked to the fighters and their commander

10 whose name is Esad, you took photographs of the command

11 tent and of another gun, 130 millimetres, whom the

12 combatants called their pride. You also found out that

13 this was a gun which was treated very carefully because

14 it was supposed to be shifted to the Sarajevo area to

15 help the fighters trying to break the blockade of

16 Sarajevo.

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. And you were told at the time that that was the only

19 cannon of that type which could be found in the

20 immediate vicinity of Sarajevo?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. A section of the article where you describe the

23 conditions and the objectives of the fighting with the

24 commander Esad actually reflects what commander Esad had

25 told you?

Page 5860

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. According to your article, he informed you in more

3 detail about the objectives of the struggle, about the

4 frontline and about the fact that there were around

5 3,000 fighters in that area.

6 A. All that he said at the time is what I put down in the

7 article, but I do not remember now exactly all the

8 details.

9 Q. If you are not quite sure of something regarding my

10 questions, please be so kind as to refresh your memory

11 by consulting your article from July 25th. In fact,

12 commander Esad, according to what you wrote, emphasised

13 that the enemy were at an advantage because they have a

14 heavy long range artillery; is that not a fact?

15 A. Yes, that is true.

16 Q. And at that place you saw the commandant and the

17 inscriptions written by the fighters on the surrounding

18 trees, the tent and in the vicinity?

19 A. As I said, the area where the commander was is different

20 from the area where I saw live shooting between the two

21 parties.

22 Q. When you talked to Mr. Hadzihuseinovic, he also proposed

23 this meeting of yours with commander Esad. If I can

24 assist you to remember, it was Esad Ramic, commander of

25 the headquarters of the Territorial Defence of Konjic;

Page 5861

1 is that so?

2 A. It is difficult for me to remember that. Mr. Rusmir

3 Haji, when we saw him in the evening, he promised for us

4 to meet the leadership of the area, either the general

5 commander, or he promised to help us go to some military

6 areas. Perhaps this information is not sufficient for

7 you, but I am sorry, I do not remember anything else

8 clearly.

9 Q. Before you set out, you knew that Mr. Zejnil Delalic was

10 also in the zone of war operations?

11 A. Yes, he was there.

12 Q. You also knew, Mr. Harraz, that Mr. Zejnil Delalic had

13 done very much, also including his own means, to equip

14 our units?

15 A. I do not know that. What do you mean, to equip the

16 unit? Equip it militarily?

17 Q. Mr Delalic also gave his personal funds as a successful

18 businessman in the west to help procure the equipment

19 for the army, medicaments, food?

20 A. Yes, that is what we were told.

21 Q. Mr. Hadzihuseinovic probably told you that Mr. Delalic was

22 co-ordinated between the military and the civil

23 authorities in Konjic?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. And you knew, Mr. Harraz, that his task in the combat

Page 5862

1 operation zone was to provide the logistic support for

2 the fighters during these very serious combat

3 operations; is that so?

4 A. That is what we were told, that he assisted in

5 bolstering military capacities.

6 Q. Mr. Harraz, thank you. Mr. Harraz, were you told by

7 Mr. Hadzihuseinovic with whom you talked that in fact

8 Mr. Delalic can give you the most accurate data about the

9 status of the equipment and the weapons which our units

10 had at their disposal, as well as in the respect of the

11 needed logistic support, arterial and technical support

12 which was still lacking and was needed by our Defence?

13 A. My mission was journalistic and therefore I did not ask

14 about details about the kinds of weapons and how they

15 were brought forth. I did not ask such questions, I did

16 not seek such information.

17 Q. Thank you. Tell me, is it correct what you have written

18 in your article that you reached the comment posed of

19 Mr. Esad Ramic that it took you two hours to reach the

20 command post of Esad Ramic?

21 MS. McHENRY: If I may object, the witness has stated he

22 does not remember the name of the person other than it

23 was Esad, so I may ask that Defence counsel take that

24 into account when asking her questions.

25 A. When I talk about Asad here, I am talking about Asad,

Page 5863

1 but I did not even put down his last name here. As far

2 as I remember, there was somebody else also called

3 Asad. I was told that if there were three people called

4 Asad in Bosnia and my name was Asad and there were two

5 other people also called Asad -- but I do not really

6 remember the family name and I did not get any sweets.

7 MS. RESIDOVIC: If you had gotten that it would have been

8 Halva, according to our custom.

9 From the position which you found the commander

10 Esad, you went further on for over half an hour through

11 a forbidding mountainous area until you came to an area

12 where you met with Mr Delalic?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. So it was more than 50 kilometres away from the centre

15 of the city, can I say that?

16 A. I cannot remember in terms of kilometres. The roads

17 were not there at all and I remember it was rainy, so it

18 is difficult to estimate the distance. Half a hour does

19 not mean 50 kilometres; it was not a highway.

20 Q. Yes, but it took you two hours, you said, to reach

21 commander Esad from the city and then it took you

22 another half a hour or more, so from the city you were

23 on your way for over two and a half hours; is that so?

24 A. About that much.

25 Q. In your article you state that you saw a small tent in

Page 5864

1 that area, a tent and a small table on which there were

2 some names carved?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. And also on the surrounding trees you saw various

5 inscriptions in various languages, in particular in

6 English and Arabic?

7 A. I think the only thing in English was "general

8 commander", and that was on the location where the

9 commander Zejnil Din was. There were names that were

10 carved into the wood, but I do not remember what names

11 they were.

12 Q. You remember that NATO Alliance and Pentagon and similar

13 inscriptions were carved there?

14 A. I do not recall now.

15 Q. Did you also see several soldiers there?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. All the soldiers present there were Bosnians?

18 A. Yes -- you mean in the site where the commander was or

19 on the battle front? In the site where the commander

20 was there was a small number of soldiers, certainly

21 Bosnians. I do not know whether there were some Croats

22 among them. In the area there were some Croatian

23 soldiers but on that site in particular there was just a

24 small group of soldiers.

25 Q. You certainly did not see any foreigners there?

Page 5865

1 A. No.

2 Q. And you talked to all of them aided by an interpreter,

3 right?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. And this inscription, the main commander's office, was

6 not written in any other language apart from English?

7 A. There were inscriptions or names, but I do not remember

8 what names there were. What I do remember is there was

9 the title of the commander, that was the only thing in

10 English.

11 Q. But that title, that same thing was not written also in

12 Bosnian; that was the only inscription and the only

13 inscription was in English?

14 A. I think all the names were inscribed in Bosnian and in

15 English there was only the title of the commander,

16 "general commander", that was the only thing in

17 English. That is what I remember after five years

18 passing since that visit.

19 Q. When you came there was no reception procedure or

20 ceremony?

21 A. No.

22 Q. This place did not give the impression of some kind of a

23 military command where there are pertaining services,

24 equipment, guards?

25 A. It was really in the middle of nowhere, it was just

Page 5866

1 somewhere high up with a tent or two and a small group

2 of soldiers who were guarding or assisting the

3 commander, and as I said in the article, close by there

4 was a Bosnian family, and that family took care of

5 catering and helping.

6 Q. Mr. Delalic introduced himself to you only stating his

7 name and surname, is that so?

8 A. He was introduced to us.

9 Q. He did not say anything about his then or previously

10 held functions?

11 A. No, he was introduced to us, that is all.

12 Q. In your presence, he gave no orders nor did anyone

13 record to him?

14 A. No.

15 Q. You talked with him about the general problems and the

16 political situation in Bosnia?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. He was interested the most in the procurement of

19 equipment and armaments in view of the fact that our

20 units were poorly equipped?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. He was in fact dissatisfied with the assistance being

23 extended by the Arabic world?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. The position that you had visited prior to that

Page 5867

1 position, there had been many more soldiers, is that so?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Before that position, you were also intercepted by

4 guards.

5 A. I really cannot remember such minute details. We were

6 escorted by a number of guards who took us to Mr. Zejnil

7 Din.

8 Q. When you were where Mr. Delalic was, you could see Serb

9 positions right across from that place and you were

10 warned that their artillery was there?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. And you were also informed that the combat had been

13 going on for almost three weeks then?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. When you returned, Mr. Harraz, Mr. Delalic stayed there

16 with these several soldiers of his in the hills?

17 A. Yes, we left him there and we went back.

18 Q. When you arrived at Konjic, you visited a house that you

19 were told was Mr. Delalic's house?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. You were also told that in the basement of that house

22 was the centre of communications of the army of Konjic?

23 A. Not exactly. What we were told and what I do remember

24 is that this house was the centre of -- as a meeting

25 point of many people who were responsible in that area

Page 5868

1 for certain tasks.

2 Q. As you have said, Mr. Harraz, on that occasion the spouse

3 of Mr. Delalic, his wife, was presented to you,

4 introduced to you?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. You are certain that it was the spouse of Mr. Zejnil

7 Delalic that you met then?

8 A. I cannot be sure of that. I was told that this was his

9 wife.

10 Q. This fact, as well as some other facts that you were

11 told, is something that you did not verify or check for

12 yourself.

13 A. No, and I do repeat that this is what I wrote in the

14 article.

15 Q. Mr. Harraz, I should now like to ask you several

16 questions associated with your article of July

17 26th 1992.

18 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: I think we might have the break. We

19 will come back at 2.30.

20 MS. RESIDOVIC: Thank you, your Honours.

21 (1.00 pm)

22 (Adjourned until 2.30 pm)

23 (2.30 pm)

24 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Remind the witness he is on his oath.

25 THE REGISTRAR: May I remind you you are still under oath.

Page 5869

1 A. Yes.

2 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Ms. Residovic, you are still

3 cross-examining.

4 MS. RESIDOVIC: Thank you, your Honours. Mr. Harraz, may we

5 continue? Before passing on to the most recent article

6 that you wrote, I should just like to ask you regarding

7 your visit to Mr. Delalic's house. You stated in court

8 that there were a lot of people moving about there and

9 that people were meeting there; or rather that that was

10 what you are told; is that correct?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. You can confirm, since you saw the house, that the house

13 is next to the road and in a position that is quite

14 sheltered from shelling; is that correct?

15 A. About it being on the road or it being by shelter, I do

16 not know. What I do remember is that there were several

17 people there in front of the house and we were told that

18 that was his main house and that that person we were

19 introduced to was his wife.

20 Q. However, you surely know or at least you must have been

21 told that Zejnil Delalic was not in that house for some

22 time because he was on the front and that people were

23 meeting there even when he was not there; is that so?

24 A. Yes, he was not present. We left him there at the front

25 and we went to his house, but he was not present in his

Page 5870

1 house.

2 Q. Thank you. I should now like to pass on to the article,

3 another article that you said you wrote upon your return

4 from the area, and I would first like to ask you whether

5 you have the original of that article.

6 A. You mean what I wrote with my own hand?

7 Q. No, what was published in the newspaper, an article

8 beginning with your visit to Mostar.

9 A. I am not quite sure whether I still have this third

10 article or whether I only have a copy of it.

11 MS. McHENRY: If it would help Defence counsel, I believe

12 she may wish to look at this since I think this is what

13 she is looking for.

14 MISS RESIDOVIC: Thank you. I would like to ask the usher's

15 assistance to be kind enough to give this article to the

16 witness. I would also like to inform your Honours that

17 this article, or rather photocopies of that article were

18 given to the Defence by the Prosecution, together with a

19 translation into English, so after the original copies

20 have been marked, which will be shown to the witness,

21 that copies of the translation of this article be given

22 to your Honours. (Handed).

23 THE REGISTRAR: The document is marked D58/1.

24 MS. RESIDOVIC: Mr. Harraz, this article bearing the date

25 26th July 1992, when a statement was taken from you in

Page 5871

1 March this year, Ms. Sabine Manke did not ask you about

2 this article, and today, the Prosecution did not ask you

3 any questions about that article; is that correct?

4 A. I do not remember anybody asking me anything about this

5 article.

6 Q. Is it true, Mr. Harraz, that you wrote this article as

7 well under the name Assa'ad Taha, as you have already

8 explained; that is bearing the name of your father?

9 A. Yes, Assa'ad Taha, yes.

10 Q. Is it true that after visiting Konjic, you headed

11 towards Mostar, and that you wrote this story as well

12 more or less at the same time after your visit to

13 Konjic?

14 A. What I remember is that I came back to Split first and

15 then from Split I went to Mostar. I repeat, this is

16 what I remember but I am not sure of it, but what I am

17 certain of is that when we left Mr Zejnil Din, we went

18 to Split.

19 Q. Mr Harraz, if you look at this article to refresh your

20 memory, is it true that in this article, too, you

21 referred to your visit to Konjic and the conversations

22 you had in Konjic about the situation in that area?

23 A. Could you give me some time to read it again?

24 Q. Yes, please. Would you be kind enough to read it?

25 I will wait. (Pause).

Page 5872

1 A. In the first paragraph of the article I refer to Konjic.

2 Q. Now that you have refreshed your memory regarding the

3 contents of your article, allow me to address to you a

4 few questions, and if necessary for you to answer those

5 questions, will you please look at the text? Will you

6 please tell me, is it true that you wrote there that the

7 leadership of the Croatian Democratic Union had, a few

8 days before your visit, proclaimed the independence of

9 Herceg-Bosna?

10 A. It was not a few days before our arrival, but it is

11 known at the beginning of the war the Croatians declared

12 the union of Herceg-Bosna.

13 Q. Mr. Harraz, is it true that in this article you wrote

14 that upon your return from Konjic you had to pass

15 through ten or so checkpoints on the main road leading

16 from Konjic to Mostar which was manned by HVO members?

17 A. I would like to say that in a journalistic omission or

18 in press coverage, it is not always important to specify

19 what city was visited in the beginning or in the end;

20 however it is important for the journalist to stick to

21 the facts. What I said in this article is true, there

22 were many checkpoints on the road to Mostar that were

23 controlled by soldiers.

24 Q. You mean HVO soldiers?

25 A. Yes.

Page 5873

1 Q. On that road, you also saw that wherever the control was

2 conducted by the HVO, flags of the Republic of Croatia

3 were flown rather than the flags of the Republic of

4 Herceg-Bosna?

5 A. Yes, there were always there flags of the Croatian

6 Republic.

7 Q. You were one of the few people who had at that time,

8 while there was still an alliance between the HVO and

9 the army, that came to the conclusion that the desire

10 for secession was gaining sway not only over the

11 commanders but over the units of the HVO?

12 A. Yes, there were expectations that the war would develop

13 into a conflict between the Muslims and the Croats.

14 Q. Is it true, sir, that you learnt from some fighters that

15 HVO members will refused to provide fuel for the TO

16 fighters to enable them to transport the wounded to a

17 hospital?

18 A. Yes, this was what we were told at the time.

19 Q. You also heard that the HVO had captured trucks

20 transporting humanitarian aid and that this had further

21 aggravated the already difficult situation in

22 Bosnia-Herzegovina?

23 A. I repeat, that was what we were told, yes.

24 Q. Is it true that you heard and then wrote this down from

25 the mayor of Konjic, Dr. Hadzihuseinovic, that Mate Boban

Page 5874

1 declared the independence of Herceg-Bosna without the

2 knowledge or agreement of the Bosniak side?

3 A. Could you please repeat the question or perhaps the

4 interpretation of the question -- perhaps the question

5 again.

6 Q. Is it true that during your visit to Konjic, Mayor

7 Hadzihuseinovic told you, among other things, what you

8 wrote in your article, and I cite:

9 "However, Mate Boban, one of the Croatian leaders

10 in Bosnia, declared the independence of the Croatian

11 republic of Herceg-Bosnia without consulting us."

12 Is that correct?

13 A. Yes, that is what we were told.

14 Q. Immediately after this quotation you also wrote in this

15 article, so can you please confirm that, that the

16 commander of the units in this region, Esad, had said:

17 "The media of a part of Hercegovina controlled by

18 the HVO and the non-participation of the HVO in

19 defending our areas are creating severe problems for us,

20 especially since those problems are not limited only to

21 their failure to assist, but are also preventing aid

22 from reaching us."

23 MS. McHENRY: I object because at least in the

24 English translation of this the Defence counsel has

25 misstated the premise. For instance, it does not say

Page 5875

1 that this commander was in charge of the units in this

2 region, so maybe with that clarification I do not object

3 to the question.

4 MS. RESIDOVIC: To clear this point up, I should like to

5 ask Mr. Harraz to read this passage in Arabic?

6 A. "Commander Asad said proclaiming Hercegovina independent

7 and the non-participation of Croatian forces in

8 defending our province creates severe problems for us,

9 especially as it does not stop from refraining from

10 extending assistance, but goes beyond that, preventing

11 supplies from reaching us. However, he continued, we

12 cannot deny that we do get some assistance every now and

13 then."

14 Q. Thank you. Is that what Commander Esad told you?

15 A. Yes, that is what Commander Asad told us and I repeat,

16 I do not remember his family name.

17 Q. Was that the Esad you had spoken to earlier on the front

18 lines?

19 A. I suppose it was.

20 MS. McHENRY: Your Honours, this is not exactly an

21 objection, but just as a matter of form, I would just

22 either ask if Defence counsel is going to be introducing

23 this in evidence or not, because sometimes it is not

24 clear to me whether or not this witness is testifying

25 from his refreshed recollection or if he is just stating

Page 5876

1 that "it says that in the article" and he now does not

2 have a recollection of it. I do not object either way,

3 but I just note that the record is not clear and it may

4 affect whether or not we have to have this document

5 introduced in some form.

6 MS. RESIDOVIC: The witness is answering my questions to

7 the best of his recollection, and I think that in

8 answering questions by the Prosecution, he also said

9 that he had reread the articles, thereby partly

10 refreshing his memory and that is what he is doing now.

11 My questions are linked to the contents described in the

12 mentioned articles which the witness has identified as

13 his own.

14 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Actually, what is the object of

15 cross-examining him with the statement which was not

16 referred to in examination-in-chief, unless you have

17 other intentions for this?

18 MS. RESIDOVIC: Your Honours, I am putting questions to the

19 witness linked to the facts that he has spoken about to

20 certain individuals, his knowledge about those people,

21 the functions they performed and this is just a

22 continuation of the previous testimony of this witness

23 on the basis of two tendered and admitted pieces of

24 evidence. The Defence will probably tender this article

25 as evidence after it has been identified by the witness,

Page 5877

1 because it refers to the same visit and the same

2 circumstances about which this witness is testifying.

3 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: You are not contradicting him, but you

4 want him to realise that he made such a statement. You

5 want him to appreciate that he made such a statement and

6 then you are reminding him.

7 MS. RESIDOVIC: Yes. To confirm what he said, to confirm

8 that this article is his and that he wrote it, and

9 finally, we should like to point to some lack of

10 clarification in his testimony. I would ask to be

11 allowed to complete my questions regarding this article

12 because it all refers to the same subject matter and

13 I think that without this article the picture will not

14 be complete.

15 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Carry on if you think it is useful.

16 MS. RESIDOVIC: Thank you. Therefore, Mr. Harraz, we were

17 talking about Esad who, you learnt, had earlier on, as

18 you had written in your article, a captain who used to

19 be a captain in the Yugoslav People's Army; is that

20 correct?

21 A. I do not recall now.

22 Q. However, if that is what you wrote in your previous

23 article, then this is a fact that you probably learnt

24 about during your visit; is that not correct?

25 A. All the information included in the article is based on

Page 5878

1 what we were told then and there.

2 Q. Please, sir, can you tell me whether at the time you had

3 learnt that this was the person with whom you had

4 discussed various subjects and on various occasions and

5 that in fact he was the commander of the Territorial

6 Defence staff of the Konjic municipality?

7 A. It is difficult for me now to remember any details

8 additional to what was included in the article.

9 Q. Thank you. I should just like you to confirm once again

10 something that you have already said. In view of your

11 inability to check the facts regarding certain persons

12 that you met, even after leaving Konjic, and today you

13 are still not absolutely sure which post the various

14 individuals held and what their competence is, or areas

15 of responsibility were.

16 A. What I am certain of is that what was told to me at that

17 time is exactly what I wrote down in my articles.

18 MISS RESIDOVIC: Thank you. Mr. Harraz, I should now like to

19 ask the Trial Chamber, since the totality of the visit

20 is reflected in the three articles written by this

21 witness, and which he has identified here as being his,

22 I would like to tender this article dated 26th July

23 entitled "The Bosnian Croatian union: a marriage out of

24 military interests, divorce because of political

25 contradictions" be admitted as evidence.

Page 5879

1 MS. McHENRY: Your Honour, if Defence counsel is going to

2 do that we would not object but we also ask then that

3 the second article also be admitted into evidence, since

4 it is not clear to me that the second article is

5 admitted. If all three are admitted, we have no

6 objection.

7 THE REGISTRAR: The third article will be D58/1 and the

8 English translation will be D58/1A. I still need to

9 receive the English translation.

10 MS. RESIDOVIC: The Defence will provide a copy of the

11 English translation for the Registry. Thank you,

12 Mr. Harraz. I have finished my cross-examination,

13 your Honours.

14 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Thank you very much. Is there any

15 other cross-examination?

16 Cross-examined by MR. OLUJIC

17 Q. Yes, your Honours, with your permission. Good

18 afternoon, Mr. Harraz. I am Defence counsel for

19 Mr. Zdravko Mucic. Does that name mean anything to you?

20 A. It is hard for me to remember details of names.

21 Q. Mr. Harraz, you are appearing before the International

22 Tribunal. Do you know who the accused are, what the

23 names of the accused are?

24 A. I know, as I have been told that the first defendant is

25 the Zejnil Din, the commander of the area and the

Page 5880

1 Croatian leader of the camp, but I do not remember his

2 name. I might have written it in my article, but I do

3 not remember it at the moment.

4 Q. Thank you. Mr. Harraz, before going to Bosnia, how

5 familiar were you with the situation there? How much

6 did you know about it beforehand and did you do any

7 research?

8 A. I used to visit Yugoslavia in general, not just Bosnia,

9 at the beginning of 1990 in general. I did not carry

10 any studies, but the result of various visits, whether

11 to Belgrade or Zagreb or Sarajevo is the knowledge that

12 I have.

13 Q. Mr. Harraz, would you be kind enough and tell me whether

14 you went again apart from the times that you describe in

15 these articles when you went to Bosnia? Did you

16 continue to report from the region?

17 A. Not necessarily about that region. I did pass through

18 that region several times to go to Mostar where I went

19 several times, but to Konjic in particular I only passed

20 through, but I did not make any journalistic interviews

21 another time. As for the dates, it is very difficult,

22 because during the three and a half periods of war,

23 I was visiting the area frequently.

24 Q. Mr. Harraz, in your examination-in-chief by my learned

25 colleague from the Prosecution, you said that the owner

Page 5881

1 of your newspaper is from Saudi Arabia and that it is

2 published in London; is that correct?

3 A. The newspaper is published in London and it is

4 distributed to the Arab world and Europe and the

5 financial supporter is a Saudi establishment or a Saudi

6 party.

7 Q. Who is the owner of the newspaper?

8 A. It is a Saudi person.

9 Q. What type of journalism is fostered by your newspaper;

10 or rather, what kind of a political orientation does it

11 have?

12 A. It is a daily political newspaper which deals with

13 general affairs, international affairs as well, in many

14 disciplines, whether political, cultural, economic or

15 otherwise. It had many interests but in general it is a

16 general newspaper. I had stopped collaborating with

17 them for some time now.

18 Q. Were you permanently employed by them or were you

19 working for them on a freelance basis?

20 A. I have never worked since my beginning of work as a

21 journalist, as a permanent journalist, I have always

22 worked on a freelance basis.

23 Q. Thank you. Mr. Harraz, in your testimony, you said that

24 you came to describe events, not to verify facts.

25 A. Yes, this is correct. I wrote what I have seen and

Page 5882

1 events that I saw at the time and I did not intend to

2 verify the questions that have been raised at the time.

3 Q. In other words, may it be said that all your articles

4 and all that they contain are based exclusively on your

5 impressions?

6 A. It is based on what I have seen, what I have witnessed

7 with my own eyes, and what I have mentioned -- what has

8 been said to me I have referred to by mentioning the

9 party that said it to me in order to acquit myself of

10 the responsibility. I believe therefore that I did not

11 convey a special impression without some sort of

12 evidence where there is something that I have personally

13 seen or it was said to me, regardless whether that was

14 commensurate with the reality or not.

15 Q. Yes, of course. Mr. Harraz, would you be kind enough to

16 explain for us something you mentioned in your testimony

17 so far. You noticed that the Bosniaks were poorly

18 organised in terms of the chain of command and that sort

19 of thing. Could you clarify this a little?

20 A. Yes, sir. At the beginning of the war it was difficult,

21 especially for the Muslim part, because it had no

22 outside party to lend it support. It had to build

23 itself on the administrative side, especially with the

24 lack of experience that they had at the time. What

25 I had touched in that area and then many others is the

Page 5883

1 lack of a hierarchical set-up in the conventional way.

2 This is something that many other foreign correspondents

3 had seen and felt. It was very easy for us to go to any

4 region to visit any person, even if it were combat

5 areas. In other areas it would have been very difficult

6 without going through many steps in order to get the

7 necessary permits to enter these areas. But at the same

8 time I would like to differentiate between the lack of

9 organisation and between chaos. There was no chaos, but

10 I did not see any specific organisation.

11 Q. Mr. Harraz, reading your articles, one can see that you

12 spoke to people in the field. Did you have those

13 conversations in the form of interviews by journalists

14 or were they simply -- were your reports simply an

15 interpretation of the conversations that you had with

16 people; in other words when you interview somebody then

17 you have to submit the statement for them to authorise

18 it before it is published in the newspaper.

19 A. The interviews that I had carried out were in the form

20 of questions and answers, and I think I did mention that

21 in the article, that it was a question and answer sort

22 of interview, especially in the camps, in the detention

23 camps.

24 Q. Did you then give those people another chance to read

25 through what would be published in the paper?

Page 5884

1 A. No, of course not. There was no time to do that,

2 particularly that when I go back I rewrite the article

3 I have recorded. On that recorder I record the

4 interview, but when I go home I edit it and then

5 I rewrite the article and then I send it to the

6 newspaper.

7 Q. Of course. Who had organised your visit, Mr. Harraz,

8 when you arrived in Bosnia in July 1992?

9 A. Do you mean in Konjic or in Bosnia in general?

10 Q. I am thinking of Konjic.

11 A. As I said, we arrived with a group in the evening, and

12 we met with Mr. Rusmir, we talked together, and he

13 promised us to give us assistance through his relations

14 with others responsible to have interviews the following

15 morning and it was the following morning when we met

16 commander Zejnil Din and where we went to the detention

17 camp.

18 Q. Who had organised this trip, this visit?

19 A. There is no specific organisation or body that

20 undertakes such an organisation. It was personal

21 initiatives, we had to look for a driver and then a car,

22 that is in Split, then comes the developments that

23 I mentioned earlier. This is the same thing that

24 happened several times and this is the same way that

25 other foreign journalists worked in that area. Every

Page 5885

1 time we have to arrange things probably differ than the

2 previous time.

3 Q. Mr. Harraz, you said that you recorded this on a tape

4 recorder?

5 A. Yes, on a cassette.

6 Q. You still have those tapes?

7 A. No, I do not have them. I should like to repeat that

8 this is one visit out of many that I have paid to Bosnia

9 during the war years; therefore it is of great

10 difficulty for the journalist to keep all the notes and

11 all the documents that he had, especially that events

12 was not so unique at the time that I had to keep every

13 single shred of paper or evidence of that visit.

14 Q. In answer to a question from my learned colleague, you

15 answered that you saw that Croatian soldiers had the

16 insignia of the republic of Croatia; is that correct?

17 A. I mentioned that they were carrying Croatian flags.

18 This is what I recall, this is what I remember and what

19 I am sure of, that they were carrying Croatian flags.

20 The identity of these flags, whether it was

21 Bosnia-Herzegovina or Croatia, is difficult for me to

22 ascertain now, but they were carrying Croatian flags.

23 Q. I am asking you this precisely to clarify this, because

24 in the transcript it is stated that these were the

25 insignia of the Croatian state.

Page 5886

1 A. It is difficult for me to ascertain or to deny this fact

2 now.

3 Q. Do you know what the flag that you saw looks like? Can

4 you describe it to us?

5 A. Yes, the colours were red and blue, and there is a

6 certain shape in the middle of the flag that has

7 coloured crossings between red and white, of red and

8 white.

9 MR. OLUJIC: Thank you, Mr. Harraz. I have no further

10 questions. Thank you, your Honours.

11 Cross-examined by MR. MORAN

12 Q. May it please the court. Good afternoon, sir. My name

13 is Tom Moran and I represent a defendant named Hazim

14 Delic. Does Hazim's name mean anything to you, by the

15 way?

16 A. It is not a foreign name to me, but I do not remember

17 his position.

18 Q. Okay, that is fair enough. By the way, you testified

19 just a couple of minutes ago that you were told that the

20 first defendant is Zejnil Din. Who told you that? Was

21 it somebody from the Office of the Prosecutor?

22 A. When I met Mrs. Sabine in London, I enquired about the

23 matter and that is what I understood.

24 Q. Okay, so someone from the Office of the Prosecutor told

25 you that the person that you interviewed in Bosnia was

Page 5887

1 in fact the defendant in this case?

2 A. What was said to me is the name, that the name that

3 I had met is now a defendant.

4 Q. Okay, so someone from the Office of the Prosecutor said

5 "Zejnil Din equals defendant in this case".

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Fair enough. Sir, I think you are a real important

8 witness, and let me tell you why, and then I will tell

9 you what I will do during this cross-examination. You

10 are the first person we have talked to that was in the

11 camp during the period covered by the indictment that is

12 not associated with the war on one side or the other.

13 MS. McHENRY: Your Honour, I am going to object to this as

14 to relevance. I do not think it is proper for Defence

15 counsel to characterise witnesses in this kind of way.

16 MR MORAN: Your Honour, all I am doing is --

17 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: You carry on, please.

18 MR MORAN: Thank you, your Honour. What I would like to do

19 first is go over your role as a journalist and then go

20 into some specific areas, just about the Konjic area and

21 the camp and then I think we will be done. Sometimes I

22 talk a little fast and sometimes my questions are not as

23 clear as they ought to be. If you do not understand

24 something, will you stop me? I know you speak some

25 English. I know your English is much better than my

Page 5888

1 Arabic. When also you hear through the translator --

2 I just want to make sure we are communicating when we

3 are talking.

4 As a freelance journalist, basically you work for

5 whoever will hire you on a story-by-story basis.

6 I understand that besides this newspaper that you were

7 writing for when you were in Bosnia in 1992, you have

8 also written for some television channels and in the

9 Arabian Gulf area?

10 A. As far as working with the television, with MBC in

11 particular, that was after my visit to the area. It

12 came much later, much later after my visit to Konjic in

13 particular.

14 Q. Also the radio station in Paris was after your --

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. You testified on your direct examination that you have

17 been travelling almost continually for years. What

18 other types of stories have you covered?

19 A. They differ as the events differ. Sometimes they are

20 humanitarian, sometimes they are political, and at other

21 times it is military articles but I do concentrate on

22 what I see. I do not pay special attention to something

23 in particular upon which I carry a study. I try to

24 verify the truth of it.

25 Q. For instance, did you cover the Persian Gulf War,

Page 5889

1 Operation Desert Storm?

2 A. No, sir, I did not participate.

3 Q. But you have covered other wars, other military actions?

4 A. Yes, I covered the Chezcen region and the events of

5 Albania, as well as the events in Zaire Kinshassa, as

6 well as other political events which become hot spots.

7 Q. You say you have covered humanitarian -- what types of

8 things are we talking about there, sir?

9 A. By humanitarian I mean the result of war, the lack and

10 shortage of food, the deterioration of the health

11 situation, the loss of housing and shelter, or any other

12 family problems that might occur. These dramatic events

13 of war.

14 Q. So, for example, just as sure as I mention this when you

15 were not there, but the starvation in Somalia, that type

16 of thing?

17 A. No, sir.

18 Q. Where have you covered these humanitarian missions?

19 Have you seen a lot of starving people while you did it?

20 A. I have seen many things as far as humanitarian

21 situations, of great difficulty.

22 Q. You mainly work for, what, the printed media?

23 A. At that time I mainly collaborated with the written

24 media.

25 Q. Now I take it you are more into electronic journalism?

Page 5890

1 A. Presently I work with the television.

2 Q. Okay. In fact you covered the war in the former

3 Yugoslavia. Almost from the beginning you had a

4 residence visa for Croatia from May 1992 until January

5 of this year, so you must have travelled all over the

6 former Yugoslavia?

7 A. Yes, but as far as Belgrade, I visited Belgrade at the

8 beginning of the war in May 1992, but after that I was

9 unable to visit Belgrade a second time.

10 Q. There was some question about your role as a -- the way

11 you see your role as a journalist. Let me just see if

12 I can explore that for just a second. There are various

13 traditions, of course, in journalism. The tradition

14 that I was brought up under was where a reporter works

15 very hard to be fair and he reports fairly and as

16 accurately as he can what he sees and what he hears and

17 what people tell him. If he has any opinion, it is

18 clearly labelled as opinion. Is that similar to the

19 tradition you were brought up under, the journalistic

20 tradition you were brought up under, sir?

21 A. I believe that my article contained that tradition.

22 I have mentioned what I have personally seen, what the

23 people have told me and, of course, it also contained my

24 own impressions and that also came across very clearly.

25 Q. Sure, that is what I am saying. It is a very similar

Page 5891

1 unbiased presentation of facts, that is what you are

2 trying to do.

3 A. Yes, this is correct, but I should like to say, for

4 example, as far as the camp is concerned, I did not try

5 to seek more information about how were these people

6 detained, were they innocent or were they guilty, such

7 other details and were they really and truly being

8 well-treated or otherwise. Therefore I am saying I did

9 not try to verify these facts because this was not my

10 task, this was not my mission and this needs great

11 assistance, but I only tried to convey reality as I saw

12 it.

13 Q. I understand that, sir. Another thing I understand, and

14 I think that it may not be as clear as it could be, but

15 just so that it is crystal clear before you and I are

16 done, that when you have written as many stories the

17 last several years as you have, it would not be unusual

18 to totally forget a particular story, would it?

19 A. Of course I did not forget what happened, but talking

20 about minute details is something else. I cannot

21 mention such details especially as I fear that what

22 I say could be used for the benefit of this party or

23 that. Perhaps outside this Tribunal I might have my own

24 position, but here I look for the truth and only the

25 truth.

Page 5892

1 Q. Sure, and what you wrote down when you wrote those

2 stories in July 1992 was the best set of facts that you

3 had at the time?

4 A. Yes, that is so.

5 Q. One of your biggest -- one of the biggest parts of your

6 assignment for that story or series of stories, as

7 I understand it, was to determine what the conditions

8 were like in the Konjic area; not just the camp but the

9 whole area. Is that a fair assessment?

10 A. Yes, that is true. Our visit to Konjic was not really

11 planned. We had no clear intention to go to Konjic when

12 we left Split. We did not intend to go to such a city

13 and visit such a camp. The point was to go to any area

14 where fighting was going on and where we could get some

15 vision of what was happening.

16 Q. Okay. Did you get a vision or a feel for, for instance,

17 the food supply among the civilians and the military in

18 the Konjic area?

19 A. There was a clear shortage of food among the military

20 and among the civilians.

21 Q. How about the supply of medicines? Were they plentiful,

22 or could you tell?

23 A. On the medical level there was an acute shortage in

24 medicines, and especially in anesthetics and in what

25 makes it possible to do quick surgery in cases of

Page 5893

1 injury.

2 Q. Let me focus on your visit to the camp, and let me start

3 off with that room where they had the large number of

4 people. Based on your experience covering wars,

5 covering humanitarian things, that type of thing, when

6 you looked at those people there did they look like the

7 type of people that you had seen in other places who

8 were starving?

9 A. No. As I said repeatedly, the general impression one

10 would have was not that they were subjected to torture

11 or undernourishment, that was the impression.

12 Q. That impression you formed was based on a lot of

13 experience, was it not?

14 A. Of course.

15 Q. And having been to places where you had seen people who

16 were starved and tortured and injured, victims of

17 trauma?

18 A. I could not visit areas under Serbian control, so such

19 examples that you are mentioning, I only saw after the

20 release of certain prisoners who had been under Serbian

21 control and went back to Bosnia and told about what they

22 had faced.

23 Q. No, sir, what I am asking you about is whether your

24 impression about the treatment of the prisoners in this

25 camp is based on your personal experience having covered

Page 5894

1 other wars, other humanitarian actions. I do not want

2 to compare it to what occurred in Serbia. I want it

3 based on your experience in other places in the world?

4 A. Yes, there were a lot of signs that would give anybody

5 that impression. I hope you will not be upset, but

6 I will have to repeat again, that was the general

7 impression that one would have.

8 Q. You just spent a couple of hours there. I understand

9 what your limitations are on your knowledge. I very

10 much appreciate that.

11 A couple of other things, and then I think we are

12 done. Sir, while you were at the camp -- let me be

13 upfront with you. We have heard some testimony here

14 that several things occurred while you were at the

15 camp. One of the things we heard was that some of the

16 camp guards put on uniforms, I believe the testimony was

17 Serbian uniforms, uniforms with Serbian markings but it

18 may have been Croatian insignia, and then beat the

19 prisoners while this beating was being filmed to make it

20 look like someone else was beating Muslim prisoners.

21 Did you see anything that was even close to that?

22 A. What do you mean by beating up Muslims?

23 Q. The testimony as I recall it was that there was an

24 attempt to have some propaganda or an attempt to show

25 that other people were beating up -- other sides in the

Page 5895

1 war were beating up Muslim prisoners?

2 A. No, I do not recall anything of that kind. I do not

3 remember any acts of violence being committed while

4 I was at the camp.

5 Q. So if someone were to come and say that people were

6 beaten for a hour in front of you and your cameraman,

7 those people would either be mistaken or they would be

8 lying, would they not?

9 A. I do not know, perhaps they are talking about what

10 happened in front of other reporters. I can only say

11 what happened before me in that place and I think even

12 if any torture, beating or humiliations happened, I do

13 not think that would happen before cameras.

14 Q. If there were some testimony that while you and your

15 cameraman were there, people came in disguised to look

16 like they were wounded -- did you see that, any wounded

17 people coming in pretending to be wounded people in

18 front of your cameras?

19 A. Serbs?

20 Q. Serbs, Muslims, I do not care. At the Celebici camp?

21 A. In that camp, as I said previously, as far as I remember

22 there was a small number, three or four, that is what

23 I remember, three or four people who had slight wounds,

24 but I did not see them getting wounded. I just saw them

25 like that and what I understood was they were wounded

Page 5896

1 during battle.

2 Q. Thinking about wounded, and I think this is the last

3 question; in the infirmary, you said that there were

4 stocks of medicine. How much was there compared with

5 what you have seen in the other parts of the Konjic area

6 about that same time?

7 A. There was a small table on which there were a few

8 medicines, but what kind of medicine and the

9 quantities -- the room itself was very small and as

10 I said, there were only a few patients, so I think the

11 quantity would be proportionate to the number of

12 patients. I saw a bit of medicine, some cotton, some

13 bandage, but I did not see anything else.

14 MR. MORAN: Sir, thank you very much. I pass the witness,

15 your Honour.

16 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Thank you very much. Any other

17 cross-examination? Is there any re-examination?

18 Re-examined by MS. McHENRY

19 Q. Yes, your Honour, a small amount. Sir, in the

20 cross-examination by Ms. Residovic, you talked about

21 how there was a desire among some persons you met and

22 talked with to get additional funding from Arabic

23 countries; is that correct?

24 A. They said that they were dissatisfied with the little

25 support that they were getting from Arab and Muslim

Page 5897

1 countries.

2 Q. Ms. Residovic also asked you about the fact that some

3 parts of your article stress Islam and the commitment to

4 Islam amongst some of the persons you talked with; is

5 that correct?

6 A. What I said in my conversation with counsel is that

7 I did not find there fundamentalist or extremist Islamic

8 trend, especially as those people had just come out of

9 the communist rule in Yugoslavia. There was not much

10 talk about religion.

11 Q. Sir, am I correct that although not fundamentalist,

12 there is a reasonable amount of discussion in your

13 articles about Islam and the commitment to Islam, and

14 the desire to have an Islamic state, for instance, in

15 Europe?

16 A. I do not think I mentioned in my article the presence of

17 a Muslim state, but perhaps a Muslim presence in view of

18 the number of Muslims in Bosnia. These were individual

19 feelings that were shared with me and that I put down in

20 my article.

21 Q. Okay, sir. Ms. Residovic also brought out the fact

22 that, in fact, many Bosnian Muslims were far away from

23 their religion; is that correct?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Am I correct, sir, that you and your editors were

Page 5898

1 conscious of your Arabic readership and wished to have

2 articles that appealed to such an audience, and this may

3 account for some of the stress on Islam in the articles?

4 A. I am an Arab and, of course, those who talk with me know

5 who they are talking to, and perhaps they choose a

6 certain tone or certain words, that is their own choice,

7 but as an Arab they will talk to me as an Arab.

8 Q. Sir, am I correct that it would not have been appealing

9 nor helpful to those seeking additional funding if the

10 article suggested that prisoners were being tortured or

11 mistreated?

12 JUDGE JAN: Are you cross-examining your own witness?

13 MS. McHENRY: Your Honour, not at all. I believe that

14 Ms. Residovic has suggested with her questions that

15 this witness is biased and although it may well be that

16 this witness has some sort of bias, I believe it is

17 important to understand the extent to which there is any

18 and if so, where it comes from so your Honours can

19 evaluate exactly what this witness is and is not

20 saying. I am not cross-examining my own witness at all,

21 your Honour, I am exploring an issue that was raised by

22 the Defence in cross-examination.

23 MS. RESIDOVIC: I apologise, your Honours, I did not put a

24 single such question to the witness, and my witness

25 answered my questions clearly so these questions do not

Page 5899

1 emanate from my questions.

2 MR. MORAN: Your Honour, I agree with Judge Jan, I think she

3 is trying to impeach her own witness. This man has

4 testified he gathered the facts as closely as he could

5 at Celebici and he recounted them to the best of his

6 ability.

7 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: I thought she was making a suggestion

8 as to what his own bias was, although it did not arise

9 from cross-examination which is the most important

10 thing.

11 MR. MORAN: I will also make that objection.

12 MS. McHENRY: Your Honour, if I may respond, let me just

13 point to a couple of questions asked by Defence counsel to

14 which I believe this is directly responsive:

15 "Mr. Harraz, was it one of the intentions of your

16 account of the situation in Konjic to acquaint the

17 Arabic public better with the difficult circumstances in

18 this region and to bolster efforts in providing

19 humanitarian relief?"

20 JUDGE JAN: It is nothing to do with bias which you are

21 attributing to the witness.

22 MS. McHENRY: Let me go forward. The witness answers yes.

23 The next question is:

24 "Mr. Harraz, is that the reason why you perhaps in

25 a certain way placed more stress on the option of these

Page 5900

1 people towards Islam?"

2 I believe those are questions asked in

3 cross-examination and my questions in re-examination are

4 directly related to that issue.

5 MS. RESIDOVIC: Your Honours, this question was reworded in

6 the sense of identifying fundamentalism among the Bosnia

7 people and in answer to that question, the witness gave

8 a very precise answer. It is not correct to cite a

9 reworded question as a question that was put to the

10 witness.

11 MR. MORAN: Your Honours, on a more fundamental note, I am

12 hoping that I have misunderstood the thrust of

13 Ms. McHenry's last statement, but it seems that it is

14 almost as if a person's religion is being used to

15 impeach him.

16 MS. McHENRY: Absolutely not.

17 MR. MORAN: Again, I am hoping I misunderstood what you said,

18 the fact of whatever this man's religion is to whether

19 or not he is a truth teller.

20 MS. McHENRY: If I may briefly respond, your Honour, just

21 for the record.

22 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Yes, you may, but I do not see the need

23 for all this controversy.

24 MS. McHENRY: Your Honour, I would just like to state for

25 the record that I do not believe in any way my questions

Page 5901

1 indicated that anything about this person's religion or

2 anyone's religion has an effect on their truth telling.

3 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Do you have any other questions.

4 MS. McHENRY: Yes, your Honour. Sir, you also indicated to

5 Ms. Residovic that the soldiers you saw in Konjic were

6 of Bosnian or even Croatian origin, is that correct?

7 A. What soldiers?

8 Q. Just the soldiers you met in the Konjic area?

9 A. As I said, in the Konjic area there was the commander of

10 the area of the camp who was Croatian and there were

11 also on the battle front some Croats with the Bosnian

12 side, as the soldiers there told me. That is what

13 I also stated in the article.

14 Q. Could you please just explain to the court what you mean

15 in your articles when you refer to the Mujahedin in the

16 Konjic area?

17 A. I meant the Bosnian fighters. I did not meet any Arabs

18 among them or any people from other Muslim countries

19 among them.

20 Q. Can you just explain a little bit about what your

21 understanding of --

22 MR. O'SULLIVAN: Objection, your Honour, this did not arise

23 out of cross-examination.

24 MS. McHENRY: I believe it did directly arise out of

25 cross-examination and that was, in fact, the reason for

Page 5902

1 Ms. Residovic's question, so I am clarifying any

2 ambiguity that may have arisen from that in connection

3 with the articles -- as I understand correctly, all

4 three have been admitted into evidence, including two of

5 them in cross-examination which contain references and

6 were the focus of Ms. Residovic's question.

7 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: He can answer it.

8 MS. McHENRY: Sir, would you please explain what you

9 understand the common meaning of Mujahedin to be and why

10 it was used in your articles?

11 A. Perhaps the word was used as the article was directly to

12 the Arab public which understands this word which gives

13 a positive connotation to this word, not a negative one,

14 but I do not want to go into this controversial issue.

15 The Mujahedin are people who defend their own lands and

16 do not attack other people's lands, and that is what

17 these people were telling me. They were saying we are

18 defending our lands and will not let our lands be

19 occupied by others.

20 Q. Thank you. Sir, on a different issue you indicated in

21 response to Mr. Ackerman and possibly also Mr. Moran's

22 questions whether during your visit to the camp you

23 yourself had evidence that the prisoners were mistreated

24 and you said no, you did not; is that correct?

25 A. I said that from what I saw there were no signs of

Page 5903

1 mistreatment. However, what happened after we left or

2 before we arrived, that is something else.

3 Q. Let me just then clarify: am I correct that you have

4 indicated that you saw at least some evidence of

5 prisoners being injured before your presence, and you

6 understood from the camp authorities that these injuries

7 had occurred prior to the prisoners arriving to the

8 camp; is that correct?

9 MR. OLUJIC: Objection, your Honours, asked and answered.

10 MS. McHENRY: That is correct, it has been asked and

11 answered I am just using it as the basis for my question

12 so there would not be any question this was not directly

13 related to cross-examination. Let me then go forward to

14 my ultimate question, sir. Am I correct that your

15 answer to Mr. Ackerman, based that you yourself did not

16 see evidence of mistreatment, was based at least in part

17 on what you had been told by the camp authorities?

18 A. I do not really understand what you mean. I understood

19 the translation itself, but what do you mean by your

20 question?

21 JUDGE JAN: He already said, this is what the camp

22 authorities told him. It is already on the record.

23 MS. McHENRY: Thank you, your Honour. If there is no

24 ambiguity, fine. Sir, let me just again clarify: did

25 you yourself have a video camera or did the video

Page 5904

1 cameraman work for you?

2 A. As I said, there was with me in the area a cameraman

3 that I had met in Croatia and who came with us to the

4 area. As for me, I had a photographic camera with which

5 I took these pictures.

6 Q. Just to clarify, the cameraman did not work for you,

7 correct?

8 A. No, he did not work for me, he was preparing a

9 documentary and he asked me to write the text, which

10 I did.

11 MS. McHENRY: Thank you. No further questions.

12 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Apart from what you were told, did you

13 see any mistreatment of any of the inmates of the camp?

14 A. What I understand from mistreatment -- if you are asking

15 me whether anybody was mistreated before me, I did not

16 see any of that.

17 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: I think that was all I wanted to know.

18 MS. McHENRY: Your Honour, just with respect to a technical

19 matter, it is the case that both the Registrar, as

20 I understand it, the representative from the office of

21 the Registrar and the Prosecutor's office would request

22 that at least the first two original articles from the

23 24th and 25th, that the original be admitted into

24 evidence since we believe that it is possible that later

25 on there may be some question about the exact quality of

Page 5905

1 pictures. If it is possible after the case is finished

2 they could be returned to the witness, but I would just

3 make that request. I know there was some discussion

4 over it, but the quality of the reproductions is still

5 not as good as the original.

6 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: It is 167 and 168?

7 MS. McHENRY: That is exactly correct, your Honour.

8 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: This is all we have for this witness.

9 You are discharged, you can go. Thank you very much.

10 (The witness withdrew)

11 The Trial Chamber will rise now. We will continue with your

12 next witness when we return.

13 (4.00 pm)

14 (A short break)

15 (4.30 pm)

16 JUDGE JAN: Do we have a copy of the statement which this

17 witness made before the OTP? (Handed) It is not yet

18 part of the record, I just want to look at it. Thank

19 you.

20 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Please reswear the witness.

21 BRANKO SUDAR (resworn)

22 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: It is time for cross-examination,

23 I think, Ms. Residovic.

24 MS. RESIDOVIC: Your Honours, I wish to inform you that the

25 Defence counsel for Mr. Delalic has no further questions

Page 5906

1 for this witness. Thank you, your Honours.

2 MR. OLUJIC: With your permission, your Honours?

3 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Proceed, please.

4 Cross-examined by MR. OLUJIC

5 Q. Thank you, your Honours. Mr. Sudar, let me introduce

6 myself, I am Zejnil Olujic, Defence counsel for Mr. Pavo

7 Mucic, Mr. Zdravko Mucic. You have been here in

8 The Hague for a couple of days now, I shall be very

9 brief, I shall not interrogate you at length, but

10 please, Mr. Sudar, I should like to ask you kindly to be

11 aware of the fact that we speak in a very similar

12 language and understand each other.

13 Lest it seem that we are conducting a dialogue,

14 would you please be so kind as to wait after I have

15 asked my question for the translation into English and,

16 of course, the same goes for the instance when you give

17 me your answer, so that the interpreters will have

18 sufficient time to translate that into the official

19 languages of the court.

20 Mr. Sudar, in your statement, you said that you saw

21 several times Mr. Pavo at the camp. How many times was

22 this?

23 A. I saw Pavo at the camp, he came there, how shall I put

24 it, five or six times at least. We were in the sports

25 hall, but in addition to that, we also loaded and

Page 5907

1 unloaded ammunition, so very frequently we had to go to

2 the hangars to do that. I saw him many times.

3 Sometimes he would come on his bike, sometimes he just

4 stopped in front of the door, would not enter.

5 Q. In your statement you also mentioned that you saw a

6 number of uniforms at the camp; is that correct?

7 A. In the camp there were various uniforms, there were a

8 number of uniforms. They would mostly come towards

9 evening, open the door, we would not know who they were

10 or what they were, but there were less Croatian uniforms

11 as far as I could notice. They only came two or three

12 times in black suits. Mostly they were Muslim

13 uniforms.

14 Q. I know from your statement, Mr. Sudar, that you are an

15 apolitical person, that you are not all that familiar

16 with politics and that you do not wish to engage in it

17 too much, but what I do want to ask you in connection

18 with these uniforms is whether you were able to identify

19 them. When I say uniforms, were they perhaps police

20 uniforms, predominantly, or soldiers' uniforms? Can you

21 describe them a bit?

22 A. They were black suits for the most part, we thought they

23 were the black shirts, the HVO, they came two times or

24 three times as far as I could see. After that there

25 were also some people from the Sandzak. They had a

Page 5908

1 Montenegran accent. Mostly these things happened, they

2 were mostly in front of the door, and those who were

3 there could see more.

4 Q. Very well, Mr. Sudar. Also in your statement you said

5 before this court that the maltreatments inside the camp

6 took place when Mr. Mucic was not at the camp; is that

7 correct?

8 A. Yes, as far as I could notice while I was down there,

9 mostly when Pavo was inside, when he would come inside,

10 they did not hit us, that is true.

11 Q. Can one conclude from that that Mr. Mucic protected the

12 prisoners to a certain extent?

13 A. I cannot decide that, I am not meritorious to say that.

14 Q. Let me rephrase the -- Mr. Sudar, was any one of the

15 prisoners ever maltreated in the presence of Mr. Mucic?

16 A. I didn't notice.

17 Q. Thank you very much, Mr. Sudar. Let us clear up a

18 certain point regarding your status. You have refugee

19 status, if I have understood you correctly?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Do you know a certain Dr. Bjelica?

22 A. Dr. Bjelica?

23 Q. Yes.

24 A. Very little.

25 Q. But you have heard of him?

Page 5909

1 A. Not really, I do not know where this person is.

2 Q. But you know of the Association of Camp Inmates or

3 Detainees in Belgrade?

4 A. I do, I have been there.

5 Q. Are you a member of this Association?

6 A. Yes, I am.

7 Q. Did you hear about Dr. Bjelica there?

8 A. No, never.

9 MR. OLUJIC: Thank you, your Honours, I have no further

10 questions. Thank you, Mr. Sudar.

11 A. Thank you, sir.

12 MR. MORAN: May it please the court?

13 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Proceed, please.

14 Cross-examined by MR. MORAN

15 Q. Sir, my name is Tom Moran and I represent Hazim Delic

16 here at the Tribunal. I am going to ask you a few

17 questions. Right up front, I know that last week you

18 were not feeling very well. Are you feeling okay today?

19 A. Yes, I am feeling better now.

20 Q. Okay, sir. If you experience those chest pains again

21 while we are talking, let me know and we will work with

22 it, okay? No one wants anything bad to happen to you

23 here, sir.

24 A. Okay, sir.

25 Q. I am going to ask you a few questions. If you would

Page 5910

1 listen to my questions and just answer them, I think we

2 can get you done here fairly promptly. If a question

3 calls for yes or no, just answer with a yes or no and we

4 can be done here. Can you do that for me, sir?

5 A. Yes, sir.

6 Q. If you do not understand one of my questions, will you

7 stop me or rephrase it or work with you, whatever it

8 takes so that you understand it.

9 A. All right.

10 Q. Just so there are no surprises here, I am basically

11 going to be asking you questions in the order of your

12 direct examination. There may be a few things that were

13 not covered on direct and I will ask you about those

14 from your statement.

15 The first thing I want to ask you is this. You

16 said that people were buying weapons, Serbians living in

17 the Konjic area and Bradina area were buying weapons?

18 A. People were buying weapons because it was obvious to

19 them that the situation was not developing in the

20 desired direction. Some people had weapons, others did

21 not.

22 Q. What kind of weapons are we talking about? Are we

23 talking about hunting rifles or are we talking about

24 military type weapons?

25 A. I mostly noticed hunting rifles.

Page 5911

1 Q. Okay. By the way, you said that there were no Serbian

2 military forces in the area at the time of the attack on

3 your village. When you said that, did you mean there

4 were not any Serbian military forces just in your

5 village or anywhere in the area?

6 A. As far as I could see, there were so Serb formations

7 there, how could there have been? We were a village

8 surrounded from all sides. How could there have been

9 any Serb formations there?

10 Q. There was not any kind of an organised partisan group or

11 an organised resistance in your village, was there?

12 A. No, in our village, nothing had been organised. People

13 came from Donje Selo, from Bjelasnica; refugees poured

14 in from every quarter.

15 Q. That is fine, sir. Let me jump forward to after the

16 time of your arrest. You were at the bridge, everybody

17 turned over their weapons and were taken into custody;

18 do you remember testifying about that?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. At that point, you were beaten by the people --

21 A. Yes, we came to the bridge and all the people were

22 beaten up there.

23 Q. What I want to get at, sir, is this: I understand that

24 at that point the people that arrested you, the people

25 that took you into custody took away all your valuables,

Page 5912

1 is that right, that they took all your jewellery and

2 your watches and your rings and your money, anything

3 that was worth anything?

4 A. The watches, everything, driving permit, identity cards,

5 everything, they took everything, even the shoelaces,

6 our belts, everything, my coat.

7 Q. After they did that they made you walk about 2.5

8 kilometres to the camp; is that right?

9 A. To the camp in the direction of the camp. I cannot tell

10 you exactly how many kilometres, perhaps 3.

11 Q. But it was not a short walk but not a long walk,

12 basically.

13 A. We crossed the railway line and the bridge towards

14 Celebici and then we followed the railway tracks until

15 we reached the entrance to the camp. I had never been

16 there before.

17 Q. Okay, sir, I am going to jump way ahead in your

18 testimony here. You testified on direct about an

19 incident where Mr Delic, you said, fired a shot into the

20 roof of hangar number 6. Do you remember testifying

21 about that, sir?

22 A. He shot the ceiling of hangar number 6.

23 Q. And it what, ricocheted around?

24 A. Yes, it hit the iron structure and ricocheted and hit

25 one of the Kuljanins, I am not quite sure who exactly it

Page 5913

1 was of all the people that were sitting there.

2 Q. You are not saying, are you, that he deliberately shot

3 someone, are you?

4 A. I did not say that he deliberately shot at someone, he

5 shot at the roof and the bullet ricocheted from the iron

6 structure and hit the man.

7 Q. Okay, sir. Also on your direct, you testified about a

8 man named Boric. Do you recall that?

9 A. Boric, yes, I do.

10 Q. You said he gave some food to a man named Cecez. What

11 was the first name of that person?

12 A. He gave him food, he brought food to Cedo Cecez, the

13 mechanic.

14 Q. Do you know whether that person is any relation to

15 Grozdana Cecez?

16 A. I do not know whether they are related. I think not.

17 Q. Okay.

18 A. I do not know for sure.

19 Q. There is just one other thing, I think, and then we are

20 going to be done, sir. I do not believe you testified

21 about this on direct, but let me -- do you remember back

22 in August 1992 when the first group of people were

23 released from the Celebici camp?

24 A. Yes, I do, I remember.

25 Q. You remember that Hazim Delic came into hangar number 6

Page 5914

1 with a list of names of people to be released, do you

2 not?

3 A. I remember well.

4 Q. He called out all those names of people to be released,

5 did he not?

6 A. Yes, he did.

7 Q. Your name was on that list, was it not?

8 A. He called my name, yes. I did not dare go home because

9 I heard that before Zivak had left the camp and been

10 killed, so I was afraid of that. The Red Cross people

11 had come and I thought I would be protected in the camp.

12 Q. What you are telling these judges is that you had a

13 chance in 1992 to be released from custody and sent home

14 and rather than being released, you chose to stay in the

15 camp because in your opinion it was safer for you; is

16 that what you are telling the judges?

17 A. I wish to tell the judges that I did not dare leave

18 because we heard that Zivak had been killed after he

19 left. As the Red Cross people had come I thought

20 I would be protected by them and I did not dare go on

21 account of this story which I had heard.

22 Q. Yes, sir. So you had the opportunity to be released in

23 August 1992 and turned down that opportunity because you

24 felt that the camp was a safer place for you, yes or no?

25 A. No, I thought that because the Red Cross had registered

Page 5915

1 us and as Zivak had been killed, this youth that had

2 left before had been killed, I just did not dare go home

3 because I thought I would be killed in my house, on the

4 road, but as I told you, because the Red Cross was there

5 and we had been registered in their cards, I asked to be

6 exchanged -- I did not dare to go home because I thought

7 I would be in the same situation as in the camp and

8 I had no right to go anywhere.

9 MR. MORAN: Thank you, sir. Pass the witness, your Honour.

10 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: You may proceed, Ms. McMurray.

11 Cross-examined by MS. McMURREY

12 Q. Good afternoon, Mr. Sudar.

13 A. Good afternoon. I wish you a good afternoon too.

14 Q. My name is Cynthia McMurray and I am one of the

15 attorneys that represents Esad Landzo. I know that the

16 Prosecution, Mr. Niemann, had discussed with you before

17 you testified that you were only to give evidence to

18 this court about things you have personally experienced

19 and personally witnessed. Am I correct about that?

20 A. I do not know, I have never been in court before. This

21 is the first time, so what do I know? I do not know the

22 court rules.

23 Q. But the Prosecution discussed with you that you should

24 only give evidence about what you personally know about,

25 is that not true?

Page 5916

1 A. How can they say anything? I am testifying about what

2 I saw.

3 Q. That is all I am asking you. I am asking you, before we

4 begin today, if you and I can come to an agreement that

5 you will listen to my questions and you will only answer

6 about things that you personally saw, personally felt or

7 personally heard. Do we have an agreement on that?

8 A. Yes, we have agreed on that.

9 Q. Havala. On February 26th 1996, you visited with the

10 Prosecution and after that the Prosecutor let you now

11 that we of the Defence would like to have a chance to

12 visit with you; is that true?

13 A. I cannot remember that, cannot.

14 Q. I believe you already stated that you are a member of

15 the association of detainees from Belgrade; is that

16 true?

17 A. Yes, I am a member.

18 Q. You list as your address the Association of Detainees in

19 Belgrade, do you not?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Besides the Prosecution and your statement that you gave

22 in 1996, what other people have you discussed your

23 experiences at Celebici with?

24 A. I have not with anyone. I made this statement and no

25 other.

Page 5917

1 Q. You and Mirko Babic are good friends, are you not?

2 A. No.

3 Q. I want to take you back to your testimony last

4 Thursday. I believe that you said that, and please

5 forgive my pronunciation of these words, I am really bad

6 at some of these, but I am going to try, that Strahinja

7 Cecez and Slobodan Draganic negotiated the conditions of

8 surrender for Cerici; is that correct?

9 A. No, not the conditions on surrender. The people called

10 up the President of the municipality to ask him not to

11 shell the place because there was shelling of Cerici,

12 and people called up the President of the municipality,

13 begging him that this should stop and it stopped,

14 because no one was firing from Cerici, nor was anybody

15 fighting from there.

16 Q. Whether it is considered the conditions of surrender or

17 whether it is considered the cease firing on Cerici,

18 those are the two people you named as chief negotiators;

19 is that true?

20 A. That was no surrender, it was calling up the President.

21 He knew him and he spoke to him and then the shelling

22 stopped.

23 Q. So the two people that you named on Thursday, they are

24 the ones who negotiated the ceasefire on Cerici; is that

25 correct?

Page 5918

1 A. Not about the ceasefire. There was no fire from the

2 Serbian side. No one was shooting, nor were there

3 military uniforms, nothing, we were all civilians in

4 civilian clothes.

5 Q. Help me. You said these two people negotiated -- what?

6 Is it the ceasing of the shelling by the Territorial

7 Defence and the HVO on Cerici; is that what was

8 negotiated?

9 A. Yes, that is it.

10 Q. Thank you. So if -- by the way, do you know a Miro

11 Golubovic?

12 A. Miro? Miro Golubovic? I know him, he lived in town but

13 he was born in Cerici.

14 Q. So if Miro Golubovic said his father Slavo had organised

15 this ceasing of the shelling of Cerici, he would be

16 wrong; is that correct?

17 A. Let me tell you, Slavko was there, too, and Mirko Cecez

18 was there too, I just mentioned two people, but I was

19 there too, next to my father's house, but we did not go

20 inside, that is all.

21 Q. I want to take you back, I know Thursday seems a long

22 way removed from now, it is hard for me to remember what

23 was said then also, but you said when you were taken to

24 Celebici camp on May 22nd you were put into a small

25 building known as building number 22, which I believe

Page 5919

1 you pointed out on this model; is that true?

2 A. Yes, number 22, the building is close to the main

3 gates. Later a hospital was there.

4 Q. I believe you said there were about 20 of you that were

5 taken to building number 22 at the same time; would that

6 be accurate?

7 A. About 20 of us were brought there, and there were some

8 others already there. Among them I recognised Zivak

9 Danilo and Babic Slobodan. Babic Slobodan was covered

10 in blood and lying on the floor.

11 Q. The people already in there were just a few people.

12 There was no way in this building number 22 that there

13 were around 100 people in there at one time, is there?

14 A. I do not know, there were not 100, but 40 or 50 perhaps,

15 I cannot tell you exactly. We were sitting one on top

16 of the other. At that moment I could not look around,

17 I cannot remember, it was terrible. We were one on top

18 of the other.

19 Q. You were born in Bosnia-Herzegovina, were you not?

20 A. I was born in Cerici, Konjic municipality.

21 Q. Which is inside Bosnia-Herzegovina?

22 A. Yes, it is in Bosnia-Herzegovina, former

23 Bosnia-Herzegovina, the former Yugoslavia.

24 Q. You could have voted if you had chosen to in the

25 referendum on March 1st 1992, could you not?

Page 5920

1 A. What, March 1992?

2 Q. March 1st 1992 there was a referendum. I do not know

3 whether you voted or not, but you could have, could you

4 not?

5 A. I do not know, I cannot remember these things. I cannot

6 remember that. Whether I voted or not -- I do not know,

7 I think -- I do not know. I have forgotten all those

8 details.

9 Q. My question was not whether you had voted, it was you

10 had the opportunity and you fit all the criteria to vote

11 if you had chosen to?

12 A. I do not know what to say to that, judges. I do not

13 know what I was supposed to vote for. The people had

14 been divided up at that time. Nobody wanted without

15 Yugoslavia, we did not wish to vote because we were in

16 Yugoslavia and I did not know what to vote for.

17 I cannot really recall the exact point in time.

18 Q. You said that when you arrived on May 22nd 1992 at

19 Celebici, it is true that the Celebici camp was mainly

20 run by HVO officers then, HVO soldiers, is it not?

21 A. No, I did not say that. How could I have said that, it

22 was mainly run by the HVO. There were military men,

23 Muslims, I do not know. I noticed there were a few

24 wearing black shirts, black suits. We were forced to

25 line up against the wall, we could not see. We had to

Page 5921

1 hold our hands up like this against the wall

2 (indicates).

3 Q. You were absent from the Celebici camp from what dates,

4 from May 22nd until what date was it that you arrived at

5 the Celebici camp?

6 A. Until Bajram, the holiday, Bajram. I cannot remember

7 the date, but I know it was Bajram when I was

8 transferred back from the sports hall to Celebici.

9 Q. I know that myself I am not familiar with the Islamic

10 faith and I do not know whether at least two of the

11 judges are, but for clarification, can you give us a

12 date somewhere near when Bajram begins?

13 A. I cannot remember. It was June as far as I can recall,

14 as far as I know, but it was a long time ago. I cannot

15 recall, but I do remember that it was Bajram that

16 evening.

17 Q. When you say June, I think your testimony before was

18 that you spent about 20 days at Musala; is that pretty

19 accurate?

20 A. I do not know exactly, I did not count the days. I was

21 under pressure, how could I count? As if any of us

22 could count. Nobody counted, nor did I have time to

23 count. Roughly, I do not know exactly the number of

24 days, I just do remember that it was Bajram.

25 Q. When you came back to Celebici --

Page 5922

1 A. Delic brought me back and there were another two or

2 three or four, I do not know, I cannot remember.

3 Someone else was there.

4 Q. Excuse me, Mr. Sudar, remember we talked about having an

5 agreement earlier. I would just like you to listen to

6 my question. I did not ask you who brought you back.

7 I am asking you about the date you were brought back and

8 I am trying to get the dates accurate.

9 A. Fine, very well.

10 Q. I assume, since I do not know when Bajram is, that you

11 returned to Celebici some time in the middle of June,

12 would that be close?

13 A. I cannot tell exactly. All I know is that it was

14 Bajram. I did not know what date it was, out of fear.

15 Q. Do you remember a date in the middle of June when about

16 seven or eight new young guards were brought to

17 Celebici?

18 A. What date?

19 Q. Some time in the middle of June, around June 12th.

20 A. I cannot remember those details. Maybe if I can think

21 back a little, but I cannot remember the day. Let me

22 see.

23 Q. I am asking if you remember an incident when a number of

24 young guards, 18 or 19 year old guards were brought to

25 Celebici some time around the middle of June. If you do

Page 5923

1 not remember, that is fine too.

2 A. I cannot remember that. I do not remember.

3 Q. Thank you very much. I believe when you came back to

4 Celebici, you were placed in hangar number 6; is that

5 not right?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. You testified on Thursday that you sat close to the

8 doorway facing it with your back; is that right?

9 A. I was sitting in the second row near the entrance, third

10 or fourth, something like that.

11 Q. I am going to ask the assistance of the usher, please?

12 This is a picture that has already been marked in

13 Prosecution exhibit number 1, they have been kind enough

14 to give me a clean piece of it. I would like to have it

15 shown to the witness and placed on the ELMO, please.

16 I would also like to have it marked as a Defence

17 exhibit.

18 THE REGISTRAR: It is marked as D17/4.

19 MS. McMURREY: Thank you. (Handed). Can we have it turned

20 on and ask the witness to look at it please? I know

21 there is a pointer there but does he have a pencil or

22 pen that he can mark on this exhibit with? Mr. Sudar, if

23 you will look at the actual drawing that is on the ELMO,

24 thank you. Do you recognise that as hangar number 6?

25 A. I think the door was here somewhere (indicates). The

Page 5924

1 main gate was over there and the road was there. There

2 was a concrete part and the door.

3 Q. I did not ask you to describe it for me. Do you

4 recognise that as what looks like the inside of hangar

5 number 6?

6 A. I cannot, it was in steel. How can I recognise it? It

7 was a steel structure. I am not good with drawings.

8 I am no draftsman. It was a hangar made of steel.

9 I did not measure it in steps length wise or width wise.

10 Q. Can you tell us how many months you spent in hangar

11 number 6?

12 A. I was in hangar number 6 from Bajram until the beginning

13 of September, something like that. I cannot recall the

14 dates. The dates are the most difficult for me to

15 remember.

16 Q. Would you please look back at the exhibit that is on the

17 ELMO. Do you recognise that the door in the lower right

18 hand column would be what would represent the door that

19 opened in hangar number 6?

20 A. What do you mean, the approach?

21 Q. I would like for you to look at it and see if -- this is

22 an exhibit --

23 A. I cannot recognise drawings, only if I was to see the

24 hangar properly made. I am not very good with drawings,

25 I do not understand them.

Page 5925

1 Q. What I was going to ask you to do is put an X on the

2 spot approximately where you sat inside of the hangar,

3 but if you cannot recognise the hangar at all, then

4 I will not be able to ask you that question. Can you

5 recognise the --

6 MR. NIEMANN: I object, your Honour. The witness has said

7 repeatedly that he does not recognise the drawing of the

8 hangar. On that basis, I object to further questions

9 being put to this witness on that matter.

10 MS. McMURREY: Your Honour, I guess if he does not

11 recognise that as hangar number 6 then I certainly

12 cannot proceed with any further questions on that line.

13 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: I thought as much.

14 MISS McMURREY: That is correct. Could I ask the usher's

15 assistance one more time, please? I would like the

16 record to reflect that the witness was unable to

17 identify hangar number 6 as introduced by the

18 Prosecution. Could this be marked as another Defence

19 exhibit and placed on the ELMO also.

20 MR. NIEMANN: Your Honour, if I may, I object to that

21 characterisation. The witness was not shown hangar

22 number 6, the witness was shown an exhibit. So I would

23 ask that the record reflect that the witness was not

24 able to identify the hangar from the exhibit that was

25 shown.

Page 5926

1 MS. McMURREY: Your Honour, if I might respond, I just

2 wanted the record to reflect that the witness did not

3 recognise a Prosecution exhibit that has been introduced

4 into evidence. That is all.

5 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Let us get the sequence of the

6 questions. The witness was shown an exhibit

7 representing the hangar. He was unable to identify it,

8 is that it?

9 MS. McMURREY: Thank you, that clears it up completely.

10 A. I can recognise the rows, but not the hangar. I cannot

11 recognise the drawing, but I can show you the rows of

12 people.

13 MS. McMURREY: Maybe you will have a little more success

14 with this next exhibit. Could we exchange the first

15 exhibit with the second exhibit, please? Mr. Sudar,

16 I know that this is not completely proportionate, this

17 is just an estimation of how it might have appeared and

18 I know there were people sitting on another side of the

19 building there that are not reflected in this drawing,

20 but can you look at this exhibit and can you recognise

21 it as something that might be close to the seating

22 arrangement that was inside hangar number 6 in the

23 summer of 1992?

24 A. In hangar number 6, like this, there was a row going

25 along here, round here, all the way round. Then there

Page 5927

1 was a row like this and another row like this. I was in

2 this row. I do not know exactly -- there was some

3 people behind me, I suppose. Somewhere here

4 (indicates).

5 Q. Just for clarification, the wall to the right had a row

6 of people seated along it also, did it not?

7 A. It is not a wall, it is sheet metal. I do not know that

8 there was any wall. It was metal, steel, as far as

9 I remember.

10 Q. Thank you, but you do recognise this as close to the

11 seating arrangement of the detainees inside hangar

12 number 6; is that true?

13 A. How do I know about the seating arrangement? There were

14 more than 50 people in one row. The door was here

15 somewhere and here there was no one, there was a bucket

16 for toilet purposes here and we would eat here.

17 Q. My question is; do you recognise this as something

18 familiar to you, familiar, almost like the seating

19 arrangement was in 1992?

20 A. It is something like this, it looks like it.

21 Q. Let me ask you --

22 A. I do not understand drawings well, but if I were to see

23 a building, a model, then maybe.

24 Q. Let me ask you: the place that is marked on there that

25 says -- I do not have it in front of me, but looks like

Page 5928

1 it is approximately where you were seated, can you tell

2 us how many people were seated to your right?

3 A. To my right? Again, I do not know exactly. There were

4 250 of us, I did not count. There was a wall to the

5 right on both sides, the people were sitting on both

6 sides of the hangar in several rows.

7 Q. If you could look back at this drawing again. You see

8 two of the rows, the rows closest to the door are facing

9 toward the back wall of the hangar and the two rows on

10 the back wall of the hangar are facing toward the door;

11 is that accurate?

12 A. Yes, two rows were facing forward and the other two were

13 facing towards the door.

14 Q. You were facing with your back to the door; is that not

15 correct?

16 A. Yes, but I would turn around now and then. I turned

17 around.

18 Q. When you were put in hangar number 6, I believe you also

19 testified the other day "we mostly had to sit with our

20 hands on our knees, crouching, and we had to bend our

21 heads down in that position."

22 Was that not your testimony on Thursday?

23 A. Yes, that is how we sat but in the meantime when they

24 would pass by, we would turn around.

25 Q. If you did lift your head up when a guard was inside the

Page 5929

1 hangar, you would get punished, would you not?

2 A. They would pass by us, they would go down to the end of

3 the building, they would lead a dog. I could look up a

4 little bit.

5 Q. I want to ask you one more time before I leave your

6 exhibit and I am sorry, Mr Registrar, did I get a

7 document number for that one?


9 MS. McMURREY: On that one, if you look approximately at

10 where you were seated, facing the back wall of the

11 hangar, how many people were closer to the door than you

12 were in the row you were in?

13 A. I cannot remember the names of those people, there were

14 people were all over, from Bjelasnica, from Sarajevo,

15 from Bradina, from Sarajevo. There was Babic --

16 Q. I am not asking their names, I just want to know how

17 many. I do not want to know who they are, just how many

18 were seated closer to the door to your right

19 approximately?

20 A. To my right -- when I came I was the last, then

21 afterwards two or three were brought in later, Amici,

22 somebody called Zivak, Zivak Amici, I cannot remember

23 those men, three or four of them, I suppose, sometimes

24 five, it depends when they were brought in, thrown in.

25 How do I know?

Page 5930

1 Q. Your testimony is that some time during that period of

2 time you could have been fourth, fifth or sixth in that

3 row?

4 A. I cannot remember the details exactly. I said that when

5 I first came I was at the end, then afterwards three or

6 four men were brought in.

7 Q. I would like for you to look again at this drawing. The

8 door that is there in the corner of hangar number 6, the

9 hinge of that door is on the corner of the building and

10 it opens outward, does it not?

11 A. I cannot remember, I cannot recognise drawings. This is

12 more slanting than it was, I think, in my opinion. If

13 I were to see the hangar and enter the hangar then, of

14 course, I would feel differently and I would get my way

15 around more easily. I do not understand drawings.

16 Q. If you were facing the hangar from the outside and the

17 door is to the right, over to the right outside the

18 hangar was a hill, was it not?

19 A. There was a slope, when you went to the toilet, there

20 was a hill behind the hangar.

21 Q. On this drawing, can you also show us where Nedeljko

22 Draganic?

23 A. Nedeljko Draganic sat in the third row facing me.

24 Q. Was that toward the back of the hangar or toward the

25 door?

Page 5931

1 A. In the middle row, but further away from me, up there,

2 somewhere near the end.

3 Q. Near the end to the left?

4 A. I do not know exactly. I cannot remember these

5 details. I did not count.

6 Q. Can you point with your pointer on the diagram

7 approximately where you think Nedeljko Draganic sat?

8 A. Roughly he was sitting here somewhere in this row. How

9 many people there were I do not know.

10 Q. You need to point on the drawing behind you.

11 A. It was this row, he was here somewhere, I think, but

12 I cannot recall exactly. Here, this part.

13 Q. Just to let the record reflect, it reflects row 3, about

14 two-thirds back to the back of the hangar, where he has

15 pointed to?

16 A. Further up, further here somewhere.

17 Q. Thank you. Maybe that is about three, four down towards

18 the back of the hangar. Would you also show us where

19 (redacted)?

20 A. (redacted), he was near him.

21 I do not know exactly, but he was there somewhere. We

22 would change around sometimes so I do not know. He

23 would make him get up and then he would change his

24 position, so I do not know all the details, I cannot

25 recall them.

Page 5932

1 Q. You were never moved to another position in hangar

2 number 6 for the whole time you were there, were you?

3 A. I was in my place all the time.

4 MS. McMURREY: Thank you. Your Honours, I would like to

5 have this admitted as Defence exhibit number 18/4 to

6 illustrate where this person approximately sat in the

7 hangar and what his view was of the door.

8 MR. NIEMANN: Your Honours, we object to the tender of this

9 exhibit. It has not been identified by this witness,

10 the witness has consistently said that he cannot

11 recognise drawings. The way it was put to him is "do

12 you recognise it as something familiar to you, almost

13 like the seating arrangements" in my submission

14 your Honours we would be much assisted by having the

15 person who drew the plan come before the court and tell

16 us what factors he took into account and upon what basis

17 he determined measurements and so forth. I think if

18 that evidence is given to the court, there would be no

19 objection to it based on what this witness has said. My

20 suggestion, your Honours, is that it be marked for

21 identification and when the author of the plan comes

22 forward to give us that necessary information, it can be

23 tendered at that stage, your Honour.

24 MS. McMURREY: Your Honour, may I respond? I believe that

25 Mr. Niemann's attempt to prevent this document from

Page 5933

1 coming into evidence is his approach to that -- whoever

2 made this is irrelevant. If the Defence made it as a

3 Defence exhibit and the witness recognises it as nearly

4 or close to representing the seating arrangement in

5 1992, then it should be admitted for demonstrative

6 purposes.

7 We are asking that the court recognise that this

8 witness has said that was where he was sitting, he

9 identified where Nedeljko Draganic was sitting, he

10 identified where (redacted), and it also

11 shows where the door was and how he was facing. I think

12 it is very helpful and instructive for this court to be

13 able to have it before it when it is considering all the

14 evidence at a later time.

15 JUDGE JAN: It is part of your evidence, the site plan. All

16 she is asking the witness is to identify the place where

17 he was sitting. This is part of your report.

18 MR. NIEMANN: No, your Honour, I do not believe it is.

19 JUDGE JAN: It is a copy of that, I think. This is a

20 photograph. What she is interested in finding out from

21 the site plan, from the one she showed to him first, is

22 where he was sitting.

23 MR. NIEMANN: Your Honour, the witness has said that he does

24 not recognise drawings. He specifically stated that the

25 angle of the view is not correct; he believes it is too

Page 5934

1 slanted. When pressed, and I did not object to the

2 continuing questioning of this witness when he was

3 protesting about his inability to recognise drawings and

4 that if he had been shown the hangar or presumably a

5 model of it he would have been happy with that, but he

6 continually expressed his dissatisfaction on being

7 questioned on that, I did not object to that and I am

8 not objecting ultimately to the tender of this document,

9 all I am saying is there is insufficient information

10 which has been given to the court on the accuracy of the

11 document for in any way it to be reliable. All it

12 requires is for whoever drew it to come forward and give

13 us the basis on which it was drawn, and then I am sure

14 that would put the document into a category of accuracy

15 and reliability which would make it admissible.

16 MS. McMURREY: Your Honour, if I might respond briefly?

17 This document is not introduced for the accuracy of

18 building number 6. It is introduced only to identify

19 approximately where this witness was seated during the

20 whole time he stayed in hangar number 6. He testified

21 he never moved. He testified that this did look

22 familiar to him. He said these were the witnesses, they

23 were seated this way, there were about 50 on each row,

24 and he was able to identify his location in the hangar,

25 and we are offering it only for that purpose. Who drew

Page 5935

1 it is irrelevant. It is only that the witness can

2 identify it and he can point out where he was located on

3 this drawing.

4 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Actually, the Trial Chamber has

5 building number 6 as an exhibit.

6 JUDGE JAN: Do you not have enough material to identify the

7 place he was sitting? He was in the second row, facing

8 towards the back, away from the door. That should be

9 sufficient for your purposes.

10 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: The description is sufficient for

11 whatever you want to use it for.

12 JUDGE JAN: He was in the second row, facing towards the

13 other side. That should be sufficient for you.

14 MISS McMURREY: Of course, for demonstrative purposes,

15 I would prefer to have the Chamber be able to refer to

16 this document at a later time. I would ask that it be

17 admitted, as I do think the record is clear, but I would

18 like to ask that this document be admitted for

19 demonstrative purposes only.

20 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Because of the nature of the answers

21 the witness is giving, it does not appear he is

22 sufficiently conversant with what that particular

23 exhibit is demonstrating. It might be fairly difficult,

24 except we rely on a description of where he was sitting

25 and imagine whether he could see all parts of the plan

Page 5936

1 from that point. I thought in fact in the first stage

2 you could have used building number 6, which is already

3 an exhibit, for the purpose.

4 MS. McMURREY: Your Honours, I would have loved to have

5 used that, that would have been more instructive, I

6 would have put it in with all the other prosecution

7 exhibits showing the same location, but this witness

8 said he did not recognise it, so I had to go to another

9 venue to try to get the information in. I will withdraw

10 that exhibit right now, but I would like to show the

11 witness another drawing at this time and see if he can

12 recognise this. I will save that for another witness

13 who can identify it. Thank you. Could I have the

14 assistance of the usher again, please?

15 A. If you show me the model I will say whatever is

16 necessary, but I do not find my way around drawings.

17 One would have to draw the people on these drawings, it

18 would be necessary to draw each individual head of each

19 individual detainee, and I just cannot find my way

20 around on drawings.

21 JUDGE JAN: Is it from this model possible to remove the

22 roof so he can show us?

23 MS. McMURREY: Your Honour, for his protection he is not

24 able to walk in front of the model right now, and it

25 inhibits us, unless we go into closed session, and then

Page 5937

1 I do not know that we would have a camera to look down

2 to show the court and preserve it for your review at a

3 later time either.

4 JUDGE JAN: He has identified the place where the hangar

5 was, and if the roof was removed he could probably

6 indicate the place he was sitting, but all the curtains

7 have to come down so he can walk up. If it is important

8 for you we can do that.

9 MS. McMURREY: Your Honours, I believe that if you are

10 satisfied that you understand where he was seated -- he

11 was facing a different direction.

12 JUDGE JAN: I am quite clear for myself. He sat second row,

13 facing towards the other side from the door, and he was

14 sitting nearer the door.

15 MS. McMURREY: About four, five or six people in. Then

16 that is clear, I will leave that now.

17 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: There is too much tendency here for

18 arguing matters which are clearly understood. I do not

19 see the point at all.

20 MS. McMURREY: I withdraw that, but I would like to have

21 this exhibit marked as D19/4.

22 JUDGE JAN: What is this?

23 MS. McMURREY: It is another exhibit I would like to place

24 before the witness. Mr. Sudar, can you look at this

25 drawing? Is this approximately how you were asked to

Page 5938

1 sit, what position you were forced to sit in in hangar

2 number 6, not only you but all the other detainees?

3 A. We did not sit like this. Like this (indicates) that is

4 how we sat, and on this drawing you have depicted us

5 with our heads completely bowed down.

6 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: I really do not understand what you are

7 about. Do you think people are machines? Merely

8 because they were asked to sit like that, they cannot at

9 any stage, no matter what happens, turn around? He has

10 been telling us all along that whenever they had the

11 opportunity, they turned around. Why are you insisting

12 that he could not do so?

13 MS. McMURREY: Your Honour, I am attempting to impeach him,

14 because if he raises his head he is punished, any time

15 there is a guard.

16 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: I agree. They did not discover him to

17 punish him, but he did it. I think the Trial Chamber

18 will break now. You can continue tomorrow morning.

19 (5.35 pm)

20 (Court adjourned until 10.00 am the following day)