1 Thursday, 14th August 1997
2 (10.00 am)
3 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Good morning, ladies and gentlemen.
4 Can we have the witness now? We will have the
5 appearances first.
6 MR.. NIEMANN: If your Honours please, my name is Niemann and
7 I appear with my colleagues, Ms. McHenry, Mr. Turone and
8 Ms. Van Dusschoten for the Prosecution.
9 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: May we have the appearances for the
11 MS. RESIDOVIC: Good morning, your Honours, I am Edina
12 Residovic and I am appearing on behalf of Mr. Zejnil
13 Delalic. My co-counsel is my colleague Eugene
14 O'Sullivan, professor from Canada. Thank you.
15 MR. OLUJIC: Good morning, your Honours, I am Zejnil Olujic,
16 counsel for Mr. Zdravko Mucic. Appearing on behalf of
17 Mr. Mucic with me is my colleague Mr. Michael Greaves.
18 MR. KARABDIC: Good morning, your Honours, I am Salih
19 Karabdic from Sarajevo, appearing on behalf of Hazim
20 Delic. My co-counsel is Mr. Thomas Moran from Houston
22 MR. ACKERMAN: Good morning, your honours, my name is John
23 Ackerman and I appear for Esad Landzo along with my
24 co-counsel Cynthia McMurray. I would like to make a
25 note at this point that today, Pakistan is celebrating
1 its 50th anniversary of independence and I wanted to
2 congratulate Judge Jan, and I know my other colleagues
3 will join me in my congratulation.
4 JUDGE JAN: Thank you very much.
5 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Kindly tell the witness she is still
6 under oath.
7 THE REGISTRAR: Mrs. Grubac, may I remind you you are still
8 under oath.
9 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Ms. Residovic, continue with your
11 Gordana Grubac (continued)
12 Cross-examined by MS. RESIDOVIC (continued)
13 Q. Thank you, your Honours. Good morning, Mrs. Grubac.
14 I hope that you have managed to rest a bit better since
15 we are having a cooler spell, and the warnings that we
16 mutually exchanged yesterday still apply today, so
17 please be so kind to listen to the translation of our
19 Mrs. Grubac, as your parents had a family house in
20 Bradina, you probably know well the area of Bradina, is
21 that not a fact?
22 A. Yes, I do.
23 Q. And you know that the hamlets in Bradina are on the
24 slopes of a mountain, is that not so?
25 A. Yes, it is.
1 Q. And that in the area there are very many isolated
2 houses, family homes, which are isolated on the various
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. And you can agree with me that after the fighting in
6 Bradina when the men had mostly been taken away, that it
7 was quite risky under such circumstances for families,
8 especially women and children, to remain in such houses,
9 can you not?
10 A. In the houses in Bradina women could not remain because
11 the houses had been burnt down, most of the houses had
12 been burnt down.
13 Q. Thank you. Probably one of the reasons why -- that is
14 probably one of the reasons why you as well as many
15 other peoples tried to go down to Bradina to stay with
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. It is in that sense that I understood that you, together
19 with the bestman at your wedding, Drago Pavlovic, went
20 down to the city of Konjic three days later, and since
21 you were unable to enter your flat you stayed for a
22 month as a house guest, you and your children at the
23 apartment of Mr. Drago Pavlovic, is that so?
24 A. Yes, I was there but other women were unable to leave
25 the school in which they had been locked up.
1 Q. Please, Mrs. Grubac, is it correct that the reason for
2 your staying in the apartment of Drago Pavlovic in
3 addition to the reasons which you have already adduced,
4 was also the fact that he was living in the neighbour
5 hood of Bozo Lokas, who was the uncle of Mr. Goran Lokas?
6 A. That was one of the reasons, one of them.
7 Q. You knew Goran Lokas who, before the war, was the
8 presiding judge of the court and you heard at the time
9 that he was also the chairman of the commission for the
10 interrogation of detainees in Celebici; is that not so?
11 A. I did not know that he was the chairman of that
12 commission. I did know, however, that he had some role
13 in the commission. I was not aware of exactly what role
14 he had. I did not know.
15 Q. Mrs. Grubac, you wanted to establish contact with him as
16 a friend, as well as a man who was influential, had some
17 influence, because it was common knowledge probably at
18 the time that Goran Lokas had helped release a number of
19 prisoners from Celebici; is that correct?
20 A. I knew that Goran was in this commission and that he
21 wanted to help Serbs in Konjic.
22 Q. However, regrettably at that time you were unable to do
23 that because Goran Lokas had been in a traffic accident
24 and was no longer in Konjic; is that correct?
25 A. Yes, it is.
1 Q. I shall now ask you about some other things to which you
2 have testified in court, namely you have said that you
3 went to visit your husband a day prior to his release
4 and that on your way back from Celebici, you and your
5 sister-in-law missed the train which went between
6 Jablanica and Konjic?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. I want to ask you, you know that when you got to Konjic
9 a certain time after your arrival somewhere in the
10 beginning of June, this train started -- the traffic of
11 this train between Jablanica and Tarcin was resumed?
12 A. It did run. I do not know when it started running.
13 I know that it ran from Jablanica to Konjic.
14 Q. You went to Celebici aboard that train?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. And that train was free of charge for all the passengers
17 at the time, was it not?
18 A. Yes, it was.
19 Q. And everyone who so wished, irrespective of ethnic
20 background or any other affiliation, could ride on that
21 train, could they not?
22 A. Yes, they could.
23 Q. And you also know that for the establishment of the
24 operation of that train, Mr. Delalic had a prominent role
25 to play in the reestablishment of the operation of that
1 train and so that train was also dubbed a certain name,
2 was it not?
3 A. I am not aware of any such thing.
4 Q. Yes, thank you. As you missed that train and there was
5 no regular traffic you set out on foot, and as you have
6 testified before this Tribunal, when you were passing by
7 the house of Zejnil Delalic you saw a lot of soldiers
8 there and dogs, and that reminded you that perhaps
9 Zejnil Delalic could be at home. This is what you
10 testified to, is it not?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. You also said that as you were friends in a certain way
13 and also associated with his brother Sefik, you actually
14 knew that at that time Zejnil Delalic was in Konjic only
15 very seldom.
16 A. Yes, that is so.
17 Q. That is why you opted -- rather it occurred to you to
18 make use of the fact that you knew that he was in Konjic
19 at that time to give him a call?
20 A. I waited for Zejnil to come to Konjic because his
21 brother talked me into it, into calling Zejnil once he
22 came to Konjic and then I made use of that opportunity
23 to do that.
24 Q. Yes, thank you. You have described in detail before
25 this court the telephone conversation which you had
1 conducted with Mr. Delalic and I have no further
2 questions on that score, but I should like to ask you,
3 on the basis of that conversation, did you gather that
4 Zejnil wanted to help you, that he would help you if he
6 A. Yes, on the basis of the conversation, I thought that he
7 would help me to the effect that he would be released
8 from prison.
9 Q. Very well, thank you. Mrs. Grubac, so it was somewhere
10 in the beginning of June that you came to Konjic again,
11 and probably it was then when you came that you saw that
12 Konjic, in the period in which you had been absent,
13 which is to say from 7th May to the date of your
14 arrival, had already been damaged from the shelling very
16 A. After my arrival from Bradina I could not see that in
17 the part of town in which I was there, there were no
18 visible consequences of shelling and that was the
19 beginning of June, and the section in which I was is the
20 railway station area, and that part of the city is
21 called Trsanica. That part of the city was damaged only
22 very slightly at the time as far as I could see after
23 coming from Bradina. This is at the very entrance to
24 the town from the direction of Bradina, this Trsanica
25 section of the city.
1 Q. Can I ask you what day it was you came?
2 A. It was 28th, I think, of May, three days after visiting
3 Bradina, or perhaps in the beginning of June. In
4 between that period, perhaps, from 28th May to beginning
5 of June, I cannot be sure.
6 Q. However, later while you stayed in Konjic you were also
7 a witness of severe shelling of the city?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. And on 4th June, it was precisely that quarter, that
10 section, the department store and the area around there
11 which was subjected to heavy shelling, if you can
13 A. Yes, there were shells landing.
14 Q. In view of that fact and everything which transpired,
15 you could feel an anti-Serb mood gaining foothold in the
16 city among the ordinary people?
17 A. I could feel that before that shelling also, even during
18 the time when I was still working and towards the end of
19 April when I went to work.
20 Q. You could also see for yourself that very many refugees
21 from various parts of eastern Hercegovina, eastern
22 Bosnia, had come to the city and the mix of the
23 population had changed quite a lot?
24 A. Yes, I could see refugees.
25 Q. And you noticed that even some friends of yours were
1 averse to communicating with you?
2 A. Not averse, they did not communicate with me at all.
3 They just would not communicate with me at all.
4 Q. But as you testified yesterday, there were people
5 anyway, there were some individuals who had not changed
6 their attitude towards you as acquaintances or friends.
7 A. Two or three individuals, very few.
8 Q. And you knew that these people, because of that, were
9 subjected to various harassment, to various gossip, even
10 on the part of their own fellow citizens?
11 A. They were with me only very infrequently, and in a very
12 discreet fashion, shall I say. They were not all that
13 conspicuous, you know.
14 Q. But precisely on account of that risk, of the danger
15 because the milieu would then proclaim them to be fifth
16 columnists, that is why?
17 A. Yes, that is the way I perceive it in respect of these
18 particular people and I had no explanation as regards
19 the others and their behaviour.
20 Q. Mrs. Grubac, you have said that after a number of
21 attempts, somewhere around the second half of September,
22 or perhaps if I calculate the days according to what you
23 have said, perhaps after 20th September, you and your
24 husband went to Mr. Delalic for a sitting, as we would
25 put it.
1 A. Yes, that is so.
2 Q. However, it is also true that prior to that date you had
3 also endeavoured to establish this second contact with
4 Mr. Delalic, but at the time he was always somewhere in
5 the war theatre, was he not?
6 A. That is not so. When we decided to pay a visit to
7 Zejnil, that was only a day before that date, not
9 Q. That evening when you came to Mr. Zejnil Delalic's house,
10 you were received as acquaintances and as friends, is
11 that not so? His attitude towards you was the kind of
12 attitude one has towards acquaintances and friends?
13 A. Yes, it was.
14 Q. Did you stay there and engage in a normal conversation,
15 friendly conversation, which lasted for almost four
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. You have said before this Tribunal what the topics of
19 your conversation were and what the actual cause for
20 your visit was, so I shall not enquire about that. That
21 is definitely in the transcript. You have also
22 testified that Mr. Delalic immediately told you that it
23 was very difficult, was very unlikely that he would be
24 in a position to help you precisely in terms of what you
25 were asking for, but he did propose first of all to your
1 husband to come with me to Igman or to Tarcin if he was
2 not feeling safe enough where he was; is that a fact?
3 A. He said so, but we did not believe that he was unable to
4 help us. We did not believe him.
5 Q. Very well. You also said that he told you that he could
6 possibly help you in regard to the return of your flat.
7 A. Yes, he did say that, but he did not help us. If I can
8 explain a bit --
9 Q. You have explained to the court several days after that
10 you were arrested and probably you never encountered
11 Mr. Delalic any more after that?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Connected to that particular conversation, I still have
14 one question. In the course of that talk, you found out
15 that he had departed from view, to quite an extent, from
16 many people, and you also saw the wanted warrant which
17 he showed you in a newspaper. However, what I would
18 like to know is: at a certain point when you were
19 talking about how he could help you, he also offered you
20 some funds and you said that you did not need it and you
21 thanked him, declining the offer; is that true?
22 A. Yes, it is.
23 Q. You have clarified that your husband was again arrested
24 in the beginning of October by the MUP and it is true
25 that in the end of December Goran Blazovic, an officer
1 of the HVO, released you this time from prison?
2 A. He took us out of prison and ipso facto, I believe that
3 he released us.
4 Q. When you left the prison, you probably heard that Zejnil
5 Delalic had left Konjic and then you certainly also
6 heard, and perhaps also watched on television, a
7 programme which was made by Sagolj with Jasmin Guska in
8 which Zejnil was accused of collaborating with the KOS
9 and escaping on a Chetnik helicopter?
10 A. I only know Zejnil left Konjic and he left it while we
11 were still in prison. I heard this from the guards that
12 were watching us. As far as this programme is
13 concerned, I really do not know anything about it.
14 MS. RESIDOVIC: Mrs. Grubac, thank you very much. I believe
15 that you have said in the sincerest of fashions what you
16 knew about -- what you know about the events which are
17 the subject of this hearing.
18 A. Thank you, ma'am.
19 MR. OLUJIC: With your permission, your Honours?
20 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: You may proceed, please.
21 Cross-examined by MR. OLUJIC
22 Q. Thank you, your Honours. Good morning, Mrs. Grubac.
23 A. Good morning.
24 Q. For several days you have been in The Hague together
25 with your husband, but I hope we will finish this by the
1 end of the day. I am Defence counsel for Mr. Zdravko
2 Mucic, I have several questions to put to you and
3 I would like to ask you to bear in mind the previous
4 remarks made regarding the technical matters, that you
5 also wait for my questions to be interpreted before
6 giving your answers so that everyone in the courtroom
7 can follow the proceedings. I hope we understand one
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Thank you. Mrs. Grubac, tell me please, in the course of
11 your direct examination you said that before the attacks
12 started and before the unfortunate war occurred in the
13 territory of the former state, that you were working in
14 a bank; is that correct?
15 A. It is.
16 Q. Did you work anywhere else in the course of your career
17 except the bank?
18 A. Yes, in the social accounting service of Konjic.
19 Q. So your career was always linked to banks, social
20 accounting, banks and so on?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. When you left Konjic and Bradina, now that you have left
23 that area, do you come across people from Bradina
24 nowadays, people who were forced to leave?
25 A. Yes, I do.
1 Q. Do you meet people from Celebici camp, former detainees?
2 A. Yes, I do.
3 Q. Do you talk to them about your native area?
4 A. Of course we do. That is what hurts us most.
5 Q. Do you talk to them about the events from the past war?
6 A. Certainly, that is the main topic of our conversations.
7 Q. Is anyone taking care of those people? Is there some
8 kind of an Association of Detainees which concerns
9 itself with the fate of the former detainees?
10 A. There is an association, but I do not know what you mean
11 by caring for them. It does not give them financial
12 aid, it has not found accommodation for them. It is
13 just an association that the detainees collaborate with
14 because of The Hague Tribunal, nothing more.
15 Q. What about the authorities? Do they care for them?
16 A. No one cares for them any more.
17 Q. Can it be said that these people have been betrayed, in
18 a sense?
19 A. I do not know what the word betrayal implies in this
21 Q. When no one takes care of them.
22 A. They take care of themselves.
23 Q. Mrs. Grubac, were you a member of the communist party or
24 the League of Communists of Yugoslavia?
25 A. Yes, I was, since the age of 18.
1 Q. In the course of your testimony, you said with reference
2 to Dr Hadzihuseinovic that he benefitted from his
3 manifestation of extremist tendencies.
4 A. I do not know that I said that. I do not know what you
5 mean by "benefit".
6 Q. Did you ever think that he might gain from demonstrating
7 extremist tendencies?
8 A. No, I was surprised why he agreed to lead a nationalist
10 Q. He was the mayor, was he not?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. And who was the mayor before him?
13 A. I cannot recall exactly. I do not know. I know that
14 Tomo Kures played an active role in politics and some
15 other people, but to be frank, I really cannot tell you,
16 I cannot remember that.
17 Q. Mrs. Grubac, could it be said that due to everything that
18 happened quite a number of Serbs lost their posts and
19 property due to the war and the atrocities that occurred
20 there; can that be said?
21 A. The Serbs lost everything with this war, their land ...
22 Q. Could you list a few of the most important people who
23 lost their positions?
24 A. It is not the positions that count, it is human lives.
25 They have lost their dearest ones, which is most
1 important of all, and then after that they have lost
2 everything, their identity -- I am sorry, I am a bit
3 upset. They have lost everything, everything. We are
4 people without a past.
5 Q. You worked in a bank, in the social accounting service,
6 this was a very significant position. You were a member
7 of the communist party. Were you active in society, in
8 politics before the war?
9 A. No, except for being a member of the party, I was not
10 acting in politics at all.
11 Q. You are familiar with Mr. Drago Peric?
12 A. I just knew him because his wife was my teacher.
13 Q. Mrs. Grubac, who had the majority as an ethnic group in
14 Konjic at the time in 1992?
15 A. The Muslims were in the majority. There were more than
16 50 per cent of them. I do not know the exact personal
17 share, but I know they had more than 50 per cent of the
19 Q. In your examination-in-chief you said that you were from
20 Bradina, that that is where your parents' house was; is
21 that correct?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. So you know Bradina well?
24 A. I could say that I do know it.
25 Q. You said that all the houses in Bradina were burnt, is
1 that true?
2 A. During the first attack, they were not all burnt down.
3 Very few houses remained.
4 Q. Could you list us the owners of the houses that were
5 burnt down, if you can?
6 A. Bradina is a large village and it is difficult to give
7 you the names of all the owners of the houses. It is
8 impossible. I can manage some names, but Djordjics, the
9 Gligorevics, the Kuljanins.
10 Q. When Bradina was attacked, is it true that there were
11 about 3,000 attackers?
12 A. I heard that later, I do not know the exact number, but
13 they said there were about 3,000 of them. This was the
14 story going round Konjic afterwards.
15 Q. So you do not have direct knowledge, it is only what you
17 A. Yes, it is only what I heard.
18 Q. How many people were defending Bradina?
19 A. There may have been between 200 and 300 people, because
20 there were no more men than that in all.
21 Q. Did the defendants have military equipment?
22 A. No uniforms, but they had some weapons, some rifles and
24 Q. In addition to rifles?
25 A. I could not tell you, I know of what I saw in my part of
1 the village.
2 Q. You lived in Konjic before the war; your husband is a
3 psychiatrist, so you were a person moving around in the
4 Konjic society. You are a family that enjoys respect.
5 Can you tell us the name of the JNA commander in Konjic
6 until the JNA left?
7 A. No, I really do not know. I was not active in politics
8 and therefore did not consider it important to know who
9 was the commander, so I really could not tell you.
10 Q. So you do not know who was the commander nor what ethnic
11 group he belonged to?
12 A. No, I do not know at all who was the commander of the
14 Q. Did you know any officers in the Konjic garrison?
15 A. No, I do not think so.
16 Q. Mrs. Grubac, could you please tell me, you know
17 Mr. Zdravko Mucic, do you not?
18 A. I knew Zdravko Mucic only by sight. We did not even
19 greet each other when we saw each other in the street.
20 That is how much we knew each other.
21 Q. When did you have your first contact with him?
22 A. I contacted him for the first time in the camp.
23 Q. How did he receive you, Mr. Mucic? Was he courteous, was
24 he arrogant, was he ready to help you?
25 A. I can say that he was cordial.
1 Q. In the course of your direct examination, you said that
2 Mr. Mucic said that Jusufbegovic was the one who had sent
3 your husband to the camp; is that so?
4 A. In answer to my husband's question, "have you contacted
5 Mr. Jusufbegovic" and Pavo intervened and said, "do you
6 not know who it was who sent you to prison?" I think he
7 implied Jusufbegovic and Rusmir.
8 Q. From this contact you had with Mr. Mucic in the camp, do
9 you believe that he had the power to release your
10 husband himself, or did that depend on other people?
11 A. I did not think about that at the time, because I knew
12 Pavo too superficially to be able to ask him to do
13 something like that for me.
14 Q. Mrs. Grubac, can it be said that you have nothing bad to
15 say about Mr. Mucic?
16 A. He was in the camp and he should have known that people
17 were killed in the camp and he should have done
18 something to help those people to prevent them being
19 beaten up.
20 Q. But judging from your own contact?
21 A. No, there is nothing bad I can say about those contacts.
22 Q. Thank you. Can it be said, Mrs. Grubac, that Mr. Delalic
23 and Mr. Mucic and later other people who helped you,
24 were, in a sense, ostracised because of this in their
25 own environment?
1 A. Mr. Pavo and Mr. Delalic did not do anything to help us,
2 because Konjic as a whole was a camp for the Serbs. So
3 the only assistance that anyone could give us was to
4 help us get out of the town, and nobody did that.
5 Q. What do you want to say when you say "Konjic was a
7 A. Let me explain. My husband was under house arrest, even
8 after his release from the camp. He could not move
9 around anywhere. Secondly, whoever wanted to could
10 arrest us, imprison us, give us nothing to eat. Nobody
11 gave anything to the Serbs, and this is obvious from the
12 fact that two days (sic) after my husband was released,
13 we were captured again and held in prison for two months
14 and my children were alone. My son who is 18, his hair
15 is half grey, so I think that the only assistance that
16 we would have wanted was to get out of that town.
17 Q. So there was no great difference between Konjic and the
18 camp at Celebici?
19 A. Nobody beat them, but they were under house arrest.
20 Q. So you feel that Konjic, too, was a camp because of
21 restricted freedom of movement?
22 A. We could not even leave our houses -- not leave town,
23 but we could not get out, could not go out. We were
24 given I think to eat -- there was no institution to give
25 the Serbs flour or food. If we did not have some money,
1 we would have starved to death.
2 Q. Mrs. Grubac, do you know that Mr. Mucic advised your
3 husband to leave Konjic and your husband refused?
4 A. I am not aware of that. This is the first time I hear
5 of it.
6 Q. Mrs. Grubac, can you confirm that the quieter ones that
7 Mr. Mucic belonged to were against violence, and that as
8 a result they were at risk in their own environments?
9 This is similar to a question I have already put to
10 you. What is your own personal impression? If you do
11 not know, say that, please.
12 MS. McHENRY: If I may ask for clarification, I think there
13 may have been a translation issue, and I just do not
14 understand the question. The transcript says:
15 "Can you confirm that the quieter ones that
16 Mr. Mucic belonged to ..."
17 I just would ask --
18 JUDGE JAN: The quarter to which he belonged.
19 MS. McHENRY: Thank you, your Honour.
20 A. I think that they did not prevent crime, and by not
21 preventing it, my opinion is that they condoned it.
22 MR. OLUJIC: Thank you, Mrs. Grubac, I have no further
24 A. Thank you too.
25 MR. MORAN: Your Honour, again it is going to take a second
1 to get me plugged in. May it please the court?
2 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Yes, you may proceed.
3 Cross-examined by MR. MORAN
4 Q. Your Honour, I would ask to go into private session for
5 a couple of minutes. I want to talk about a subject
6 that is rather delicate.
7 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Let us go into private session.
24 (In open session)
25 MS. McMURREY: Your Honour, we have no questions of this
1 witness. Thank you.
2 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Is there any re-examination?
3 Re-examined by MS. McHENRY
4 Q. Just briefly, your Honour and I think it may have been a
5 translation error. I did not know whether it would be
6 better to interrupt or ask. Ma'am, at least the English
7 translation of something you said in cross-examination,
8 I believe to Mr. Olujic, said that two days after your
9 husband was released from Celebici you and he were
10 arrested again. Did I understand that correctly?
11 JUDGE JAN: She said that, but actually it was two months.
12 Her husband was released at the end of July and
13 re-arrested in October. She said two days but meant two
15 A. Yes.
16 MS. McHENRY: When you were re-arrested, when your husband
17 was re-arrested and you were arrested, were you brought
18 to Celebici or somewhere else where you then stayed for
19 several months?
20 A. They took us to the MUP in Konjic, the police station in
22 MS. McHENRY: Thank you.
23 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: This is the end of your questioning.
24 You are discharged. You can go. Thank you very much.
25 A. Thank you.
1 (The witness withdrew)
2 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: I think it is convenient for us to take
3 the motion for protective measures.
4 MR. NIEMANN: As your Honour pleases.
5 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: For the witness to come.
6 MR. NIEMANN: Your Honour, with respect to the motion we have
7 filed in this matter, I just wish to make a correction
8 and a clarification if I may in relation to the written
9 motion before I make any oral submissions on the
10 matter. Your Honours, firstly in paragraph 1, there is
11 a reference to documents not being disclosed to the
12 public and media. That is slightly imprecise in the way
13 it is expressed there, your Honour. It should relate to
14 if in the event of any photograph or sketch or some such
15 matter in relation to the witness, should it ever be
16 produced, that it not be released. It is fairly
17 unlikely, I would imagine, that that would occur.
18 Also in relation to paragraph 2 of the relief
19 requested, on page 3 of the motion, your Honours, there
20 is a reference there to image and voice altering
21 devices. In fact, the relief requested is merely for
22 image altering devices. There is no request by the
23 Prosecution for voice altering devices in relation to
24 this witness.
25 Your Honours, I do not think it is necessary for
1 me to ask to go into private session at this stage in
2 relation to the application, but it could do at some
3 stage in the course of it. If that occurs because of
4 some matter that arises, I will seek your Honour's leave
5 to do that, but simply the basis of the application is
6 this, that the witness came to The Hague on the weekend
7 of 10th August, which was last weekend, and soon after
8 he arrived here he sought this measure of protection
9 which is contained in the motion we have filed. The
10 witness is not seeking any other restriction, the
11 transcript -- he is not seeking any restriction in
12 relation to that. He is not seeking any restriction in
13 relation to his name or identity in that sense. It
14 merely is the visual presentation of his face that he is
15 concerned about.
16 Your Honours, he has said that he is in a part of
17 Bosnia at the moment where there is a movement of
18 peoples back into the area, and he has a wife and child
19 and he considers that him giving evidence of the matters
20 that happened to him, circumstances that he was placed
21 in in the Celebici camp may cause him or his wife to be
22 placed in danger.
23 Your Honours, these issues are very hard to
24 assess, but I think it is true there is a great deal of
25 instability in Bosnia-Herzegovina and particularly in
1 certain parts of it at the moment, and the Prosecution
2 certainly has the view that the fear that he has is real
3 fear and is justified in the circumstances, particularly
4 in relation to the part of Bosnia where he is.
5 This witness is an important witness to the
6 Prosecution case. He gives direct eyewitness testimony
7 of matters which go to central parts of the Prosecution
8 case and to specific counts in the indictment. There is
9 no evidence to suggest that the witness is anything but
10 a trustworthy witness; indeed that criteria which was
11 set out in the five criteria in both the Tadic case,
12 which was adopted also in the Blaskic case, is probably
13 not of great relevance, having regard to the fact that
14 this is not an application for anonymity. It is merely
15 an application for the restriction on the level of
17 There is, as I mentioned, I think, yesterday,
18 considerable constraints on the ability of the Tribunal
19 to provide witness protection once they leave this
20 Chamber. I repeat what I said in that respect in this
21 regard, that the most powerful protection that can be
22 awarded to a witness is in the Chamber itself, and once
23 they leave the Chamber it diminishes at a rapid rate
24 until they go back to the place where they came from.
25 If one is to be afforded the maximum protection that one
1 can get, it is in fact during the course of the evidence
2 and while they are here in The Hague.
3 Finally, your Honours, in relation to the
4 criteria, the measure that is sought is the least
5 restrictive measure in relation to publicity that is
6 sought. When I say least restrictive, it does not
7 entail any significant constraints on publication,
8 merely the publication of the face. As was observed,
9 your Honours, in other cases relating to this question,
10 the notion of public hearing and a fair trial must be
11 interpreted, in our submission, in the context of the
12 rather unique object and purpose of this Tribunal,
13 namely that it is operating in an environment where,
14 unlike, for example, the Nuremberg Tribunal, there is no
15 direct control over what can happen in the former
16 Yugoslavia where the witnesses live. Because of that
17 lack of control, which was not the case in relation to
18 Nuremberg, the allied powers had control and could
19 enforce their will. That is certainly not the case
20 here. There is some measure of control, your Honours
21 would no doubt observe with relation to the Dayton
22 Agreement and the UNPROFOR but that, in our submission,
23 is far short of anything that was available during the
24 Nuremberg proceedings, and certainly it is a long, long
25 way short of what happens with respect to courts in
1 national jurisdictions where the court has at its
2 disposal such matters as police forces and the like.
3 In respect of that, your Honours, the measure
4 sought in relation to this witness is, in our
5 submission, the least restrictive that we could seek.
6 It is, in our submission, justified and unless I can
7 help your Honours with any other matter, it is our
8 submission that it is appropriate in these circumstances
9 to grant this measure of relief. As your Honours
11 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Do the Defence have any views on that?
12 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honour, the only concern that I would
13 like to express is the indications are, and we still do
14 not have the material to prove it yet, but we have been
15 advised that the last witness who requested this
16 identical protection, Mr. Sudar, had, prior to leaving to
17 come here, given a full interview on Belgrade television
18 which was run immediately after his testimony here. If
19 this witness has done a similar thing and done a
20 television interview with Belgrade television or someone
21 else, then it begins to appear that coming here and
22 requesting this kind of protection is a bit gimmicky and
23 may be sort of a way to make themselves feel important,
24 "I went there and I got protection because I was so
25 important". If they are giving television interviews to
1 Belgrade television before they come here, then there is
2 not much need to give them even this level of
3 protection, it would seem to me.
4 MS. RESIDOVIC: Your Honours, I was just going to present
5 the same argument. I can understand that every witness
6 can refer to special circumstances and this court can
7 provide protective measures, but yesterday Mr. Ackerman
8 raised an important question at a private session, and
9 I think that we must all bear in mind that when a
10 witness goes back home he may be exposed to various
11 risks there.
12 However, in addition to these protective measures
13 transforming this trial into a secret trial, there is
14 also a danger that some witnesses, such as one who asked
15 for protection here, only a day later appeared under his
16 full name on Belgrade television. Thank you.
17 MR. OLUJIC: Your Honours, with all due respect for my
18 learned colleague on the Prosecution, any comparisons
19 with the Nuremberg trial and everything else, I think
20 that the spirit of the statute and the rules of
21 procedure and evidence require, above all else, that the
22 trial should be public. For the trial to be public it
23 also means that it should be fair. The introduction of
24 this kind of element as to whether a witness will have
25 protection or not, and then later on we learn that in
1 the mass media he is granting interviews, is simply a
2 way of undermining this honourable court. I would even
3 go so far as to say that it shows lack of respect, to
4 ask for protective measures in the courtroom, to engage
5 the technical services to give such protective measures,
6 and then to grant an interview on Belgrade television or
7 anywhere else, could in fact be described as contempt of
8 court, and that is why we are opposed to such a carte
9 blanche approach. Certainly, yes, for protective
10 measures when this is warranted, and, of course, we can
11 check the real need for it, but we would be against it
12 becoming the rule.
13 MR. KARABDIC: Your Honour, the Defence of Hazim Delic cannot
14 accept the reasons given by the Prosecution in their
15 motion. The return of refugees is one of the key
16 provisions of the peace accords, and it is the duty of
17 this Tribunal, too, to work for the maintenance of
18 peace, as it was established by the security council in
19 line with the provisions of Chapter 7 of the Charter.
20 To claim that the implementation of the Dayton Accords,
21 with respect to refugees has some effect especially in
22 view of the very limited number of refugees that are
23 going back, and it is quite obvious that he is living in
24 Republika Srpska, where very few refugees have returned
25 to, and to claim that he is running a risk going there
1 I think is really ridiculing the peace process in
2 itself, which would mean that the peace process, as
3 such, is a source of danger, and I think that such
4 arguments cannot be accepted and should be rejected.
5 MS. McMURREY: Just if I might be heard for one second.
6 There is one question that needs to be determined --
7 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: You do not deserve to be heard after
8 Mr. Ackerman has spoken. You should have asked your lead
9 counsel if you should do that.
10 MS. McMURREY: So I am not going to be allowed to ask the
11 one question?
12 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: I would prefer it that way.
13 MS. McMURREY: Thank you, your Honour.
14 JUDGE JAN: Did Sudar appear on Belgrade television after
15 appearing before us and seeking protection? This makes
16 the whole claim rather ridiculous.
17 MR. NIEMANN: Your Honours, I have not seen --
18 JUDGE JAN: Although I would say, just because one witness
19 has abused the concession granted to him, it does not
20 mean it should be denied to everyone else. This is a
21 very serious question.
22 MR. NIEMANN: It does, your Honour. I would indeed be very
23 disappointed if that happened, but I find it surprising
24 for it to be suggested by Mr. Olujic that it did happen,
25 considering that we made enquiries of the Victims and
1 Witnesses Unit; we were informed at the time that this
2 matter went to air in Belgrade, the witness was still in
3 The Hague and had not left, so it seems to us, your
4 Honour, that allegations of contempt and others -- if it
5 is correct he was still in The Hague at the time, is a
6 very serious thing to say of the witness, but we are
7 still pursuing our enquiries, because we want to find
8 out what the facts are, rather than rely on innuendo,
9 suggestion and rumour.
10 Your Honours, it is possible that this witness
11 gave an interview before he came to The Hague. That is
12 in itself an unfortunate thing, it is not something we,
13 the Prosecution, knew about. It is possible he gave an
14 interview beforehand, which is what Mr. Ackerman has
15 suggested, and that that was published afterwards. We
16 will pursue the matter and we will find out. In
17 relation to it, your Honours, you are quite right; it
18 should not be that because one witness does something
19 like that that all other witnesses should be punished as
20 a consequence of it. Certainly so far as we are
21 concerned, we do all we can to discourage this sort of
22 thing, particularly after the events, because it does
23 fly in the face of the court's order and it is most
24 unfortunate. Of course, as your Honours have realised
25 we have absolutely no control over it. If they do it
1 when they go back there, whether or not it amounts to
2 contempt, I would be very surprised.
3 Your Honours, the issue about secret trials in my
4 submission is really overstating the matter
5 considerably. This is not a question of a secret
6 trial. In most jurisdictions video links to the outside
7 mass media are unheard of, but the court is open, people
8 can come in here, sit in the gallery, listen to the
9 case, listen to the evidence. The only thing they are
10 prevented from seeing is the face. In my submission it
11 is no different to any other public hearing; there is no
12 restriction on the transcript or anything of the sort.
13 To suggest secret trials really is going too far. A
14 secret trial is if we shut the blinds down and nobody
15 could see it and the transcript was restricted. That is
16 not our submission. In my submission, that is a highly
17 exaggerated suggestion. Your Honours, unless I can
18 assist you with anything else.
19 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honour, just very briefly, I think I
20 failed a moment ago by being imprecise. What I was
21 trying to suggest, and apparently failed, was that
22 before the court makes a decision about the matter with
23 regard to this witness, we at least enquire whether or
24 not he has given such an interview prior to coming
25 here. If he has then it does not make any sense to give
1 him this protection. That is what I was trying to
2 suggest, and apparently did not do it well.
3 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Actually, I share Mr. John Ackerman's
4 view, and it is a way of safeguarding whether such
5 interviews have been made, so before such applications
6 are brought, there should be an undertaking from any of
7 these witnesses that they have not conducted themselves
8 in that manner. So if they now do, that will amount to
9 a contempt of the Tribunal.
10 But otherwise, I do not think, in the
11 circumstances of this application -- we find that the
12 Prosecution did not know of it before now, it was
13 definitely not possible for them to have circulated the
14 application so that we can provide for these
15 exigencies. In any event, what it is now asking this
16 Trial Chamber to do is just to alter the image of the
17 witness and nothing more. His voice will be heard as it
18 is. Those who can recognise him by his voice will still
19 do so, and his identity will only be obscured to that
21 I do not know how the Trial Chamber can enforce
22 the third condition which you said, not taking his
23 photograph while he is "in the precincts of the
24 International Tribunal", because they would not have
25 known about this order. This order is just being made,
1 and whoever is freelance around here, and does not know
2 about this order, might proceed to do so. That is a
3 fairly difficult one for the Trial Chamber to
5 MR. NIEMANN: Yes, your Honour, and I would imagine that any
6 photographs taken thus far, or sketches drawn thus far,
7 of course, the order does not apply so it would not
8 operate in relation to that, and indeed, I would imagine
9 that if your Honour's order were made in relation to
10 paragraph 3 and was not known, it would be difficult as
11 well, but I am really talking more in the precincts of
12 the public gallery and in the Chamber itself.
13 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Definitely in the Chamber we can
14 prevent that, but outside, "in the precincts of the
15 International Tribunal", that is not just in the
17 MR. NIEMANN: I understand, your Honour. In respect of that,
18 we would be content to amend it to say, "in the Chamber
19 of the International Tribunal", instead of the word
20 "precincts", if that makes it more effective in terms
21 of your Honours' powers to enforce.
22 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: In my view, it is safer to keep it
23 within paragraph 2 as amended.
24 MR. NIEMANN: That is the main thrust of our request, your
25 Honour, yes.
1 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: That is the only thing we can do. If
2 we leave it to paragraph 2 then it covers it. If you
3 ask me too, I do not share the view it is a secret
4 trial, because if you can hear his voice clearly
5 everywhere, there is no secrecy about what is
6 happening. Thank you. We will grant the application.
7 JUDGE JAN: Do check up whether he has already made a
8 statement to the television.
9 MR. NIEMANN: I will certainly do that, your Honour. Might
10 I be excused to speak to the witness, your Honour?
11 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Please do. The Trial Chamber will now
12 have a break and come back at 11.45.
13 (11.15 am)
14 (A short break)
15 (11.45 am)
16 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Thank you.
17 MR. NIEMANN: Your Honours, just two matters, if I may.
18 Firstly, dealing with the question of whether or not the
19 witness for whom I have just made application for
20 protective measures, Hristo Vukalo, has given interviews
21 in the past; he tells me he has not given an interview
22 in the past and he tells me he does not wish to give an
23 interview in the future and he will not do so, about the
24 testimony he is going to give.
25 The second issue your Honours is that we have been
1 investigating the question of whether Branko Sudar, the
2 one that was the previous witness that had protective
3 measures did in fact give an interview to Belgrade
4 television, since it was raised by the Defence to us the
5 other day. Not only did we ascertain as a consequence
6 of our enquiries that he was here at the time and could
7 not have done it then, but what we have now discovered,
8 your Honours, we have been informed by at least one
9 person who was watching Belgrade television, that there
10 was indeed a programme where Branko Sudar appeared, as
11 evidenced. It was in fact a take off the Tribunal's
12 broadcast which went to some British television studio
13 and was then sent to Belgrade that had the face
14 distortion which was applied by the technicians in this
15 Tribunal. So it was nothing more than an extract of his
16 evidence in this court. We are still continuing with
17 our enquiries in relation to that.
18 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Apart from that, apart from Mr. Vukalo's
19 wish not to give any interviews, if you extract an
20 undertaking from him that he would not, that is quite a
21 different thing from his voluntary decision not to.
22 MR. NIEMANN: I did ask him, your Honour, whether he would be
23 prepared to give an undertaking not to do so and he told
24 me that he would.
25 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: With the Sudar thing, it is a difficult
1 thing to imagine why they would relay the network from a
2 British television --
3 MR. NIEMANN: It comes from the Tribunal, your Honour, out
4 through the outlets to British television apparently.
5 Then it was transmitted to Belgrade and apparently what
6 appeared on Belgrade television was exactly what
7 appeared here.
8 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: His distorted image, not an interview
9 he gave?
10 MR. NIEMANN: No, a reproduction of what appeared in the
12 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Thank you very much. Let us continue
13 with Mr. Vukalo.
14 MR. NIEMANN: As your Honours please. I call Mr. Vukalo.
15 Hristo Vukalo (sworn)
16 Examined by MR. NIEMANN
17 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: You can take your seat.
18 A. Thank you.
19 MR. NIEMANN: Would you please state your full name?
20 A. My name is Risto Vukalo.
21 Q. Mr. Vukalo, I should inform you that the court has
22 granted you certain protective measures in relation to
23 the giving of your testimony in these proceedings,
24 insofar as the image of your face by mechanical means
25 has been distorted on the television as it is
1 transmitted from the Tribunal. Do you understand that?
2 A. Yes, I do. Thank you.
3 Q. Mr. Vukalo, could you please give your place of birth?
4 A. I was born in Bjelovcina, in the municipality of Konjic.
5 Q. What is your date of birth?
6 A. I was born on 29th March in 1964.
7 Q. Where did you receive your education?
8 A. I completed four grades of elementary school in the
9 elementary school in Bjelovcina.
10 Q. Did you continue your education after that?
11 A. Yes, I did. Then I completed the rest of the grades, up
12 on the eighth grade of elementary school, in the town of
13 Konjic, in a school which was called is Zuonimir Nono
14 Belsa in Musala, and I completed secondary school also
15 in Konjic, machine technical school.
16 Q. At the machine technical school, were you given special
17 training in any particular profession or trade?
18 A. I became a mechanic to operate machine tools.
19 Q. Mr. Vukalo, did you do your military service with the
21 A. Yes, I served my military service with the JNA as a
22 person of limited capacity, and this was due to my heart
24 Q. When did you do your JNA training in the limited
25 capacity? What year, can you recall, approximately?
1 A. Yes, I can. I went to the army in 1984 in the month of
2 November. I do not remember the exact date. I served,
3 I completed my service in 1985 in December. It was a
4 full service term.
5 Q. Thank you. Sir, what is your ethnic background?
6 A. Serb.
7 Q. Prior to 1992, were you in employment?
8 A. Yes, I was.
9 Q. What was your employment?
10 A. I worked with a firm -- actually in a factory in
11 Slovenia. It was a Serb firm from Vranje. It was
12 called SZP.
13 Q. What was the main product produced by this firm? What
14 did they do?
15 A. I worked as a welder.
16 Q. Prior to 1992 where was your residence? Where did you
18 A. Let me just say this, I found employment in 1990 at
19 Igman in Konjic, and I lived in Bjelovcina.
20 Q. Were you still working at Igman just prior to the
21 outbreak of military activity of 1992?
22 A. Yes, I was.
23 Q. Where were you living just prior to the outbreak of
24 military activity in 1992?
25 A. I was living in Bjelovcina.
1 Q. Were you married then?
2 A. Yes, and I have a child.
3 Q. Did you have an any children at that time?
4 A. Yes, it was four years old at the time.
5 Q. Sir, were you yourself engaged in any form of military
6 activity in the months leading up to the commencement of
7 military activity in 1992, in the early part of 1992?
8 A. No.
9 Q. Approximately when did you cease working?
10 A. Somewhere in the beginning of April they told us to go,
11 or perhaps it was in March. I am not quite sure.
12 Actually, we were assigned to the so-called waiting
13 list, saying that we were redundant, that there was no
15 Q. This is the waiting list at the firm that you worked
17 A. Yes, and not only I myself but many Serbs too.
18 Q. What were you doing between the period when you stopped
19 employment up until the commencement of military
21 A. I stayed at home, I worked the land.
22 Q. Can you remember when it was that the military activity
23 commenced in and around the area where you lived?
24 A. Before my village was attacked some checkpoints had been
25 erected on the approaches to the town of Konjic. They
1 were set up by the Muslim and Croat population.
2 Q. Are you able to give the Chamber an approximate month
3 when these checkpoints were first established in 1992?
4 A. When they were established exactly for the first time
5 I do not know, but I do know that there were checkpoints
6 in April, because I could not go to the town.
7 Q. Can you recall what date it was when Bjelovcina itself
8 was attacked?
9 A. It was attacked on 20th May 1992.
10 Q. Where were you when Bjelovcina was attacked?
11 A. On that day, with my father I was bringing the hay
12 inside the barn, and approximately around 4.00 or 5.00
13 pm, in the afternoon, firing could be heard from the
14 direction of the village of Donje Selo and Cerici, the
15 villages of Donje Selo and Cerici.
16 Q. When you heard this firing commence, what did you do?
17 A. I left whatever I was doing. I entered the house and my
18 father went in the direction of a meadow where we had
19 sheep to drive them back to their barn. I did not know
20 what was happening.
21 Q. Apart from your father, was anyone else with you at this
23 A. My wife and my child were in the house, my mother and my
25 Q. As the firing and the military action intensified, did
1 you then seek shelter anywhere?
2 A. No, after some 40 minutes or so, firing started at my
3 hamlet from the five houses -- of the five houses which
4 were the household -- where the households all bear the
5 surnames of Vukalo. We could hear the firing and the
6 shooting at the houses and there was shooting at the
7 houses from the direction of the hill of Lovno, and from
8 the direction of the villages of Hasanovici and Balmis,
9 some 200 to 300 metres away from my hamlet.
10 Q. What happened? What did you do?
11 A. We were frightened, we were surprised. They shot at the
12 yards, at the houses, the children, the women, the
13 elderly and the sick. All were fleeing every which way,
14 actually towards the forest which was some 200 to 300
15 metres away from that place.
16 Q. Did you yourself flee into the forest?
17 A. Of course, with my wife and child and my mother and
18 brother, and the other neighbours, women and children
19 from among these five households.
20 Q. When you went into the forest, did you take any arms
21 with you, weapons?
22 A. No.
23 Q. Did you have any arms or weapons in the house at the
24 time of the attack?
25 A. No, I did not.
1 Q. How long did you stay in the forest?
2 A. Until the next morning.
3 Q. Then what did you do?
4 A. Early in the morning, I do not recall the exact hour, we
5 returned to our houses.
6 Q. Did that include your wife and child and your mother?
7 A. Yes, all of us.
8 Q. At that stage, did you see or know of anyone who was
9 defending the village against the people that were
10 attacking it?
11 A. My neighbourhood, my hamlet was away from the other
12 houses -- distanced from the other houses some 500 or
13 1,000 metres, up to 1 kilometre. I did not hear any
14 shooting coming from the village.
15 Q. At this stage did you know who it was that was attacking
16 the village?
17 A. When they were shooting at the houses they were
18 shrieking, singing, actually howling. It was clear to
19 me that they were -- I could make out that they were
20 saying some words like "Allah U Akbar".
21 Q. From those words did you deduce who these people were?
22 A. Yes, of course.
23 Q. Who was that?
24 A. They were Muslims and Croats from the nearby villages.
25 Q. Thank you. The village of Bjelovcina, can you tell us
1 what the make-up of the population is in terms of
2 ethnicity; that is your village.
3 A. The village of Bjelovcina had some 50 to 60 households.
4 Of these households, four perhaps were Muslim and six to
5 seven Croat households. It was surrounded by eight or
6 more Muslim and Croat villages.
7 Q. What was the majority ethnic population of Bjelovcina?
8 A. The majority in the village of Bjelovcina were Serbs.
9 Q. Were you able to observe what the village was being
10 attacked with in terms of weapons?
11 A. They shot bursts from automatic weapons.
12 Q. Do you recall whether any mortar or heavy artillery was
13 being fired at the village at the time?
14 A. Yes, rifle grenades were being fired, and on the next
15 day, which is to say on 21st May, I also heard shells,
16 but they were not quite near. They were falling
17 somewhere on the lower section of the village. In fact
18 I heard two of them land.
19 Q. Were you aware of whether or not the JNA or the army of
20 the Republika Srpska was operational in the area?
21 A. Before this began the JNA had military centres in
22 Celebici; actually the military barracks was there, and
23 then in Ljuta and Konjic and Zlatar, they were driven
24 away, and in Celebici, the soldiers of the Yugoslav
25 People's Army were captured. This is what I heard from
1 my neighbours. They were taken, as I heard to Split, so
2 that there was no Yugoslav People's Army there at the
3 time. In the village there was no Serb Army.
4 Q. Was there any other form of organised armed resistance
5 to this attack that you were aware of at that time?
6 A. You cannot talk about some organised resistance, there
7 were 50 or 60 able bodied men there, not more than that,
8 not many.
9 Q. Were they engaged in defending the village?
10 A. On the part of the population of the village of
11 Bjelovcina, I did not hear either then or later that
12 they had put up any resistance.
13 Q. You say that you returned to the village the next day,
14 21st May, after spending the night in the forest. What
15 happened then, can you tell us?
16 A. Yes, when we came to our house it was chaos. The doors
17 were broken down, the windows had been torn down.
18 Everything was upside down in the house and furniture
19 was broken. It looked like a storm had swept through
20 the house.
21 Q. What did you then do?
22 A. We then stayed in the house repairing things and putting
23 things back in their places, somewhere around 9.00 in
24 the morning on 21st May, we saw some 200 to 300 metres
25 from the houses, in the hamlet, across the meadow called
1 Lopata, we saw three or four soldiers running towards
2 our houses.
3 Q. When you saw this happen, did you decide to do
5 A. When they came to a distance of perhaps 150 metres away
6 from us, they ran to it, to that point, they opened fire
7 again at this hamlet of mine. Then we fled again in the
8 direction of the forest with the women and children, the
9 elderly, the infirm.
10 Q. Did you reach a time when you actually went down to the
12 A. The soldiers kept shooting and calling out. Who in his
13 right mind dare approach them? There was no warning and
14 they shot at you immediately. So I went down,
15 I descended below a large rock, under a rock, and my
16 wife and my child did not manage to get out of that
17 forest. She and the child were taken and taken away.
18 Q. Who took them away?
19 A. This Muslim army, Muslim soldiers and Croats.
20 Q. Were you then later taken away by the soldiers?
21 A. No, we went down not knowing what to do. We went down
22 to the Muslim village called Kralupi and a relative of
23 mine, when we were about 200 metres from the village of
24 Kralupi, this relative went to see his bestman, Vahid
25 and Amir Dzalilovic, because we did not dare go in with
1 the women and children, fearing that they would shoot at
2 us from the village of Kralupi.
3 Q. What happened then?
4 A. Then Amir came, Amir Dzalilovic and he took us in front
5 of a house where there were a lot of soldiers, Muslims
6 and Croats, some of whom I knew.
7 Q. What happened then?
8 A. Then this Dzalilovic, Arif, took me and my brother, Cedo
9 and Davor, to his home and my mother and the other women
10 and the others, they stayed behind in front of some sort
11 of a small command in Kralupi that they had, near Arif's
12 house. Vahid Macic came and he used to work with me in
13 Igman, he was armed wearing a camouflage uniform, and a
14 young man from the village of Turija, a Croat whom I did
15 not know.
16 Q. Macic, was he with the Muslim army?
17 A. Yes, he was armed, but he was not with the Muslims.
18 There were Muslim soldiers in this village of Kralupi,
19 but somebody had probably reported to some higher level
20 command that we had got there, that we had arrived in
21 Kralupi and he was probably sent to take me there.
22 Q. What happened to you when you went there?
23 A. As soon as he came he cursed me, but he did not hit me.
24 They took us to Vejsil Salilovic's house, me and my
25 brother Branko.
1 Q. At the time when you made Vahid Masic, were you or your
2 brother or anyone in the group that you were with
3 carrying any weapons?
4 A. No.
5 Q. What happened next? What was the next thing to occur?
6 A. All the way, Vahid Masic cursed, but he did not hit me
7 or my brother. When we got to Vejsil Salilovic's house
8 near the elementary school in Bjelovcina we saw a lot of
9 armed men, soldiers, and as soon as they approached one
10 of them hit my brother. I did not know this man. He
11 fell and then they started beating him. They shouted
12 "kill the Chetniks", then they started beating me as
14 Q. Did you recognise any of the people that were beating
16 A. Yes, while I was on the ground covered in blood, Redzo
17 Balic from the village of Zukici took out a knife and he
18 was shrieking, he wanted to cut my throat and he pressed
19 it against my neck. Then another soldier, I do not know
20 who he was, pulled him away, because he was kneeling on
21 my chest. I did not faint, but I was badly beaten up.
22 My nose was bleeding, there was blood coming out of my
23 mouth. Then they took me, Smajic was there, I do not
24 know his name but I know his nickname, he was known as
25 Duda. They took me to a house 50 metres away, it is 50
1 metres from Vejsil's house to this one. The house was
2 owned by Boza Tomic.
3 Q. Smajic, was he a soldier or one of the people that had
4 been captured?
5 A. He was in uniform, a Muslim with a rifle.
6 Q. What happened to you when you got to Tomic's house?
7 A. They took me upstairs on the first floor of the house
8 into the room where this Duda hit me again and he
9 ordered me to lie down on the floor. He hit me with his
10 rifle butt, he kicked me with his soldier's boots and
11 with a stick made from a cable.
12 Q. What part of his body -- what part of your body was he
13 hitting you on?
14 A. He was hitting me most on my back and all over the body,
15 but most on my back and legs. Then later he found a
16 broom. I was fainting in the meantime. When he found
17 this broom, then he hit me with that too, and he was
18 joined by a blond man, younger than me, I do not know
19 his name. I know he was a Croat, and so the two of them
20 hit me.
21 Q. You say you fainted. Did you faint or lose
22 consciousness just the once or did that happen a number
23 of times?
24 A. I fainted several times, but they poured water over me.
25 Q. When this happened, you were brought back to
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Apart from you, was anyone else being beaten at this
4 time and at this place?
5 A. There was just me upstairs with these two people, Duda
6 and this other Croat soldier.
7 Q. What happened then?
8 A. They beat me for about an hour in that room, and then
9 they told me to go down to the cellar. I could not
10 walk, because my legs would not hold me, they were so
11 painful. So they pulled me down the steps.
12 Q. When you say "they", do you know who it was that pulled
13 you down the steps?
14 A. These torturers of mine, the people who had beaten me in
15 the room, Duda and this soldier from Turija whose name
16 I do not know.
17 Q. When you got down to the cellar, what happened then?
18 A. They threw me against a wall and I sat down. I saw the
19 owner of the house there, Boza Tomic, who was also
20 covered in blood. My brother was also there, and Vlado
21 Vukalo, Milenko Vukalo. They did not beat me much
22 there. They did slap us, one of the soldiers, I do not
23 know which one.
24 Q. What was the next thing that happened?
25 A. Then they took us in the direction of the village of
1 Pokojiste. I could not walk so this Croat soldier had
2 to help me, and it is with his help that I somehow
3 managed to reach Pokojiste. They took us to Branko
4 Jozic's house, he was also known as Aga. They leant me
5 up against a wall, also in a sitting position. I was
6 leaned up against a wall and I saw many soldiers there,
7 in uniform and armed, and among them I recognised some
8 of my neighbours.
9 Q. Are you able to name some of the neighbours that you
11 A. Yes, I recognised Ivica Kozaric, a Croat from that
12 village; Niko Jozic, a Croat from that village; Branko
13 Jozic, known as Aga, because the command there,
14 I realised then, was situated in his house, this was a
15 higher level command.
16 Q. These people that you have just named, these Croats you
17 just named, were they in uniform at the time?
18 A. Yes, they were in uniform and carrying rifles.
19 Q. Once you arrived at this command centre, where were you
20 then taken?
21 A. They did not hit me there, but two people sat next to me
22 and hit me on the nose. They did curse me, and later a
23 van appeared. They took my shoes off and they took me,
24 my brother, Boza Tomic, Vlado Vukalo, Milenko Vukalo, to
25 the motel in Konjic. I observed that there were very
1 many soldiers there.
2 Q. Was this at the motel where there were many soldiers?
3 A. Yes, the Konjic motel.
4 Q. Were these soldiers also in uniform and armed?
5 A. Yes, of course.
6 Q. Do you know who it was that took you to the motel?
7 A. I do not know the driver, I do not know the two armed
8 soldiers -- I do not know what they were called. I just
9 know they were Muslims.
10 Q. When you got to the motel where did they take you then?
11 A. They took the whole group, Vlado, my brother, Milenko,
12 Boza Tomic and myself upstairs to a room, a room for
13 guests before the war, it was a hotel room. They told
14 us that we should rest there and two armed soldiers
15 guarded us.
16 Q. Approximately what time was this in the day or night?
17 A. It was on 21st in the evening, just before dark fell --
18 no, it was already dark. I do not know what the time
19 was. However, sleeping was out of the question. Every
20 five minutes, these two would come in and hit us, kick
21 us, they would curse at us.
22 Q. When you say these two, do you mean the two soldiers
23 that were guarding you?
24 A. Yes, I am implying those two guards.
25 Q. What happened the next morning?
1 A. In the morning, I do not know what time it was, it was
2 early, it had already dawned, they told us to go down,
3 they would apparently give us some breakfast and
4 coffee. We went down to the hall -- the dining room,
5 actually. However, nothing came of breakfast and
6 coffee. I saw there somebody from Celebici, Masic.
7 I think his surname was Masic. I cannot recall his
8 first name, known as Barba, that was his nickname. He
9 was in uniform, and he took us into the kitchen one by
10 one and beat us there. This fate befell me too.
11 Q. Did they say anything to you when they took you into the
12 kitchen and beat you?
13 A. He would just call out, one by one, "into the kitchen",
14 beat us up there and shove us back and then the next
15 one's turn would come so that Vlado, Milenko, Boza,
16 Branko and myself had the same treatment.
17 Q. What was the next thing to happen?
18 A. After that Duda arrived, the one I have already
19 mentioned, and a boy from Zlaticevo, a soldier, I do not
20 know his first or second name, and they took me alone
21 upstairs, into a room upstairs. Here they started to
22 hit me. They hit me all over my body, and I had already
23 previously been beaten up. I could only just keep
24 conscious, and then someone walked in, I think he was an
25 officer of that Muslim army at the time. Later, I saw
1 him when I was working in the town of Konjic, outside
2 the command building, which was just in front of the
3 Standard, across the way from the Standard. He asked me
4 whether I had a wish. He behaved correctly, I am
5 thinking of the officer, and he said -- and I said that
6 I would like to see my wife and child if possible. For
7 a moment he interrupted the beating and the torturing by
8 my torturers. My wife came, after about 15 or 20
9 minutes. They brought her into the room where I was,
10 bloodstained, lying on the bed.
11 Q. What did your wife do when she came into the room?
12 A. She cried.
13 Q. Did they do anything to your wife when she cried?
14 A. Yes, they said that she would suffer the same fate as I,
15 that she was a Chetnik woman. However, only one of them
16 slapped her, and this officer took her away, and
17 I suppose they took her back to Musala, the sports hall,
18 where my child and father were also imprisoned and some
19 other women and children. That was a prison by then
21 Q. After your wife left, was anyone else brought into the
22 room then, any other prisoners brought into the room?
23 A. Yes, after that they brought in Slobodan Babic and
24 Novica Ivkovic from my village.
25 Q. When they brought those two in, what happened then?
1 A. Duda, whom I have already mentioned, and this soldier
2 from Zlaticevo and some others started to hit us. They
3 hit us all over, but mostly on the back. I fell between
4 two beds, I fainted, and then they probably stopped
5 hitting me. When I came to, being busy with the other
6 two, Slobodan Babic and Novica Ivkovic, they were
7 hitting them a lot, I raised myself to the bed --
8 actually, no, I must correct myself. I do not know how
9 I got to the bed from the floor, somebody may have
10 lifted me up. I was lying on the bed, anyway. I came
11 to, and I saw well with my own eyes when Duda cut with
12 his knife. I do not know whether it was his right or
13 left hand, lower hand, below the elbow, he cut off a
14 piece of flesh with a knife to Novica Ivkovic. Then he
15 trampled on Slobodan Babic's chest. He broke his arm
16 because he trampled on his arm too. Others hit him as
17 well, and they took turns coming in and out. I do not
18 even know who they were in the end. They were all
19 wearing uniforms.
20 Then Duda, with a rifle, pushed the barrel into
21 Slobodan Babic's mouth and perforated his palate. He
22 was covered in blood, and he could no longer speak. He
23 was just gargling. This went on, I do not know exactly,
24 I think until about 2.00 in the afternoon and then this
25 officer came whom I had mentioned, saying he was more or
1 less correct with us, because he did not hit us. He
2 interrupted this torture. He was shoving the soldiers
3 out, and he told us to go downstairs.
4 Novica went on his two feet; I was helped by a
5 soldier, whom I do not know, but I somehow managed to
6 get back on my feet. I saw that Slobodan could not
7 stand at all. Then Duda and another soldier dragged him
8 down the stairs, and his head was hitting the steps.
9 They were laughing while they did it, and making jokes
10 about it.
11 Q. When you were in the motel, did anyone offer you or did
12 you receive medical treatment?
13 A. I was going to say that, I forgot. Actually, this
14 officer, when he managed to stop the beatings, asked we
15 would like to see a doctor. Of course we needed a
16 doctor. A lady doctor arrived who had worked in Konjic,
17 in the hospital, before the war, and a male nurse,
18 called Vinko Jozic, whom I knew.
19 Q. Did you know the ethnic background of the doctor?
20 A. Yes, the doctor, she was Muslim, and the male nurse was
21 a Croat. When they came in, the two of them, into the
22 room, the room appeared like a slaughterhouse. There
23 was blood on the walls, on the beds, it looked awful.
24 She said, referring to Slobodan Babic, that he was
25 apparently drunk and that he had fallen and hurt
1 himself, and she was laughing as she said it. She said
2 that we did not need any assistance, though we were all
3 covered in blood. However, I asked this male nurse to
4 bandage my right -- I think it was my right, because
5 I felt nothing in the elbow area, I thought it was
6 broken. He said he dared not from the doctor, and when
7 she walked out for a couple of minutes, she went out for
8 a couple of minutes, she left the room, he did bandage
9 my arm, or rather he tied it round my neck and he did
10 not dare give any treatment to Slobodan.
11 As for Novica where the flesh has been cut off by
12 Duda, he quickly bandaged it before the doctor came back
13 and then both of them left, the doctor and the nurse.
14 Q. Were you taken from the motel to another place?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Where were you taken?
17 A. When I got outside in front of the motel I saw Mirko
18 Babic. He was black and blue from blows and there was
19 blood on his head and they loaded me into a car that was
20 parked in front of the motel.
21 Q. When you say they, do you know who it was who loaded you
22 into the car?
23 A. Yes, the soldiers, but I do not know their names or
24 surnames, they were in uniform. They were there in the
1 Q. After you were loaded into the car, were you taken
3 A. Yes, I and Mirko Babic were taken to Celebici, and there
4 they put us into number 22 where that camp had been
5 founded. We were there in Celebici.
6 Q. You say number 22, do you mean room number 22?
7 A. Hangar number 22.
8 Q. And Celebici is the former JNA camp?
9 A. Yes, it was the former JNA barracks, a smaller barracks.
10 Q. Were there many people in room 22 when you first arrived
12 A. When I entered this hangar number 22, I found there,
13 among those I knew, Veljko Babic from my village, and
14 also the following people I will mention are from my
15 village, Ranko Dordic, Scepo Vukalo, and about six or
16 seven men from the village of Brjdani who had already
17 been there five or ten days before, I do not know how
18 many days before, but they were there when we arrived.
19 So they were the first detainees of the Celebici camp.
20 Q. Can you describe the interior of room 22 when you first
21 arrived at the Celebici camp?
22 A. It was like a warehouse for fire extinguishers. There
23 were quite a number of water hoses there, pumps used for
24 firefighting equipment, there was quite a bit of that
25 equipment there.
1 Q. Was there any bedding in room 22 when you first arrived?
2 A. No, there were no beds.
3 Q. Was there any medical supplies that you could see when
4 you first arrived?
5 A. I do not understand. Could you repeat the question,
7 Q. I am sorry. Did you see any medical equipment or
8 medicines or things of that nature in room 22 when you
9 first arrived there?
10 A. I understand now. No, I did not see any of that.
11 Q. You have already mentioned quite a number of people that
12 you saw in room 22. Are you able to estimate
13 approximately how many people were detained there, in
14 room 22?
15 A. When I arrived there, when I was brought in to 22, there
16 were about 12 or 15 men. I do not know the exact
17 number, but I think there were not more than 15, but
18 later, they were brought in in groups. From my village,
19 from the Donje Selo and from the village of Cerici, so
20 that by nightfall, there were many of us there. There
21 were so many that we could hardly stand inside in the
23 Q. After you arrived at Celebici, did you see Slobodan
24 Babic again?
25 A. Afterwards, after I arrived, maybe two or three hours
1 later, I do not know exactly, they brought in my brother
2 Branko, Vlado, Milenko and Boza Tomic and Novica and
3 Slobodan Babic. They took Slobodan Babic out -- they
4 were carrying him because he could not stand on his feet
5 and they threw him into number 22.
6 Q. How long did Slobodan Babic stay there, in room 22?
7 A. He was there, I do not know for how many days, but not
8 many. I do not know whether it was a day or two,
9 I cannot remember how many days, and then he was taken,
10 apparently to the 3rd March hospital, which was set up a
11 couple of days before that. Actually it was an
12 elementary school, 3rd March elementary school, as it
13 was called in Konjic. Then they brought him back again,
14 he was completely naked.
15 Q. When you say they brought him back, they brought him
16 back to Celebici?
17 A. To number 22 they brought him back.
18 Q. When they brought him back, how long did he stay in
19 number 22?
20 A. Not long, I do not know how many days. He was
21 immobile. He was not there for long, I do not know how
22 many days. Then they took him again, I think to the
23 3rd March, but I do not really know where they took
24 him. I later learned that he had died there.
25 Q. Apart from being in room 22 at Celebici when they
1 brought him back naked, did you see him in any other
2 place in the camp?
3 A. I did not see him, except in number 22 in Celebici.
4 While I was in Celebici I only saw him there in number
6 Q. When you were in Celebici were you interrogated when you
7 first arrived?
8 A. Yes, I was interrogated, but before that I was beaten by
9 this Smajic Duda that I have already mentioned and some
10 others that I do not know.
11 Q. When you were interrogated, who interrogated you?
12 A. First interrogation was by Mirsad Subasic from the
13 village of Idbar.
14 Q. Had you known him before the war?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Did you know what his occupation was before the war?
17 A. I think that he worked something to do with the army, he
18 was attached to the department for the military.
19 I think he went to some sort of school of that kind, but
20 where he worked exactly I do not know because I did not
21 know him very well. I knew him by sight.
22 Q. When he was interrogating you, what were the sort of
23 questions that he was asking you?
24 A. He asked me how I had got there, whether I knew whether
25 there were any other able bodied men in my village of
1 Bjelovcina, and where they were.
2 Q. Were you beaten during the course of this interrogation?
3 A. Mirsad Subasic treated me correctly. He did not beat
4 me, nor did anyone else beat me while he was
5 interrogating me, but later when they took me back the
6 guards hit me.
7 Q. Do you recognise any of the guards that hit you?
8 A. I think they were the military police, because they had
9 white belts, but I know that there were two of them.
10 I think one was from Dzajici and some were from Idbar.
11 Q. What were you beaten with?
12 A. They beat me with fists, with their legs, with
13 truncheons, and rifle butts.
14 Q. How long were you in room 22?
15 A. In hangar 22 I think I stayed for about 15 days. I do
16 not know exactly, but around 15 days. Then I was
17 transferred to hangar number 6.
18 Q. During the time that you were in room 22, can you
19 estimate approximately how many people were there, how
20 many prisoners were being kept there when the maximum
21 number of prisoners were in room 22?
22 A. At one point I think there were about 100 of us, maybe
23 even more. There was not room to sit down, we were all
24 standing, we could hardly all stand.
25 Q. When you were in room 22 did you on any occasion go to
1 any part of the camp?
2 A. When they started bringing in people in large groups,
3 the population from Bradina, men who were put up in
4 number 6, in the hangar number 6, one day I was carrying
5 some bread there to that hangar, because I was appointed
6 to do that by the guards.
7 MR. NIEMANN: I will ask you what you saw when you went there
8 when we return. Is this a convenient time,
9 your Honours?
10 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Yes, I think so. We can stop here for
11 lunch and come back at 2.30.
12 (1.00 pm)
13 (Adjourned until 2.30 pm)
1 (2.30 pm)
2 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Remind the witness he is still on his
4 THE REGISTRAR: Sir, may I remind you you are still on your
6 A. Yes.
7 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Mr. Niemann, you may proceed.
8 MR. NIEMANN: As your Honour pleases. Mr. Vukalo, when you
9 were in room 22, you said on one occasion you went over
10 to hangar number 6 to take some bread over. What did
11 you see when you went over to hangar 6 on this occasion?
12 A. Let me just say that I did not enter the hangar, I was
13 in front of the hangar and the door was open and I could
14 see the part that one could see with the door open.
15 Q. What did you see in there, from that point?
16 A. I could see people beaten up, some were bandaged.
17 Practically all of the people I saw were beaten up.
18 Q. You said that you were first interrogated by a person by
19 the name of Subasic. Were you then later interrogated
20 by somebody else when you were in the Celebici camp?
21 A. In Celebici, while I stayed there, there were many
22 interrogations. I was interrogated by Miro Stenek, and
23 there was another one whose name I cannot remember.
24 I think he worked in the court in Konjic, and I think
25 that he was a Croat.
1 Q. Were you beaten or mistreated in any way during the
2 course of those interrogations?
3 A. There were many interrogations, as I said, and at some
4 of those we would also get beaten and when we were
5 interrogated by Miro Stenek we were not beaten when we
6 were being actually interrogated, but we were beaten
7 before and after the interrogation.
8 Q. Were you ever interrogated by personnel who worked in
9 the camp, as opposed to interrogators that came in from
11 A. We were interrogated by the guards. I was also
12 interrogated by Hazim Delic.
13 Q. When were you interrogated by Hazim Delic?
14 A. I do not recall the date exactly. Once I was called
15 out, to get outside. I was in hangar number 6 then, and
16 he interrogated me outside the hangar and I was beaten.
17 Q. Who beat you during this interrogation?
18 A. Hazim Delic did, and Esad Landzo, called Zenga.
19 Q. With what were you beaten?
20 A. Hazim hit me with his favourite thing which he almost
21 always had with him; that is a baseball bat.
22 Q. Can you recall now what part of the body you were hit
24 A. Under the arms, the part of my body where the ribs are,
25 on the ribs.
1 Q. Did Hazim Delic ask you any questions during the course
2 of this interview?
3 A. Yes, he did. He asked me about a certain sniper.
4 Q. What did you say to him?
5 A. I had no idea what to reply to him. I did not know what
6 he was talking about. I said there was no sniper, there
7 was not anything of the kind.
8 Q. Did he say anything else to you during the interview?
9 A. He mostly hit me then.
10 Q. Had you known Hazim Delic before you went to Celebici
12 A. No, I had not, not in person, but I had seen him around
13 town, the town of Konjic, and later I knew that it was
14 him, the person I had seen before.
15 Q. Did you know where he came from, what village or town he
16 came from?
17 A. You mean where he was born?
18 Q. Yes.
19 A. He was born in the village of Orahovica near Konjic.
20 Q. Do you know what position he occupied when he was in the
22 A. While he was in the camp he was the deputy commander of
23 the camp and later he was the commander himself.
24 Q. During the time you were in Celebici, did you see him in
25 the camp very often or not often? Are you able to give
1 us some idea?
2 A. I saw him quite often while I was in Celebici. He would
3 enter as many as three times a day and for a while he
4 also spent the nights there. He slept in the command
5 building where they had their quarters. He came
7 Q. Do you think you would recognise him again if you saw
9 A. Of course.
10 Q. I think you said that participating in the interview or
11 the interrogation that you were subjected to was
12 Mr. Landzo; is that right?
13 A. Landzo also interrogated us on his own with the guards,
14 and he also took part in that particular interrogation
15 when I was being interrogated by Delic.
16 Q. Did you know Landzo by a nickname?
17 A. Already then when I was interrogated by Delic, I knew
19 Q. What was it?
20 A. Zenga.
21 Q. Had you seen Landzo before the war?
22 A. No, I did not know him before Celebici.
23 Q. Did you see him in -- how often did you see him in
24 Celebici camp? Was it occasionally, often, rarely?
25 A. Initially Zenga was not a guard at Celebici, but he was
1 there, he was in the Celebici camp. Later he was also a
2 guard. He spent a lot of his time in the camp.
3 Q. Do you think that you would recognise him again if you
4 saw him?
5 A. Of course.
6 Q. Apart from those people that you have mentioned being
7 camp personnel, was there anyone else in the camp that
8 you knew or came to know in terms of the people in
9 authority in the camp?
10 A. I heard, but I did not see, that Zejnil Delalic used to
12 Q. Anyone else in the camp that you knew or saw? I am
13 speaking mainly of people that you saw when you were
14 there who were in positions of authority?
15 A. There were the guards, I cannot say what positions
16 people held.
17 Q. Are you able to give the names of any of the guards?
18 A. Something which is etched in my memory, and it is an
19 unpleasant memory, regrettably, in addition to Zenga,
20 Osman Dedic, Salko, I believe that he was from the town
21 of Konjic, and I do not remember his surname.
22 Q. You have given the name of the deputy commander,
23 Mr. Delic. Do you know who the camp commander was when
24 you were there?
25 A. Yes, certainly. The commander of the camp, the
1 administrator there was Mucic, Zdravko Mucic, called
3 Q. Pavo was his nickname, was it?
4 A. Yes, that was his nickname.
5 Q. Do you know where he came from, what village or town he
6 came from?
7 A. Pavo, and I will call him by his nickname, if that is
8 all right, was from Konjic. I do not know his exact
9 address. I believe it was Polje Bijela.
10 Q. Do you know whether he worked in Konjic or whether he
11 worked somewhere else, before the war?
12 A. Before I started working at the factory at Igman, he
13 also worked at that same factory. Then he left for
14 Vienna, I believe.
15 Q. Did you see him in the camp occasionally, rarely or
17 A. I saw him from time to time.
18 Q. When you saw him in the camp, how was he dressed?
19 A. He wore a uniform.
20 Q. Do you think that you might recognise him again if you
21 saw him?
22 A. Yes, I certainly could.
23 Q. When you were in the camp did you see there a person who
24 was being detained as a prisoner called Pero Mrkajic?
25 A. Yes, when I came to number 6 from number 22, namely
1 after we were transferred from 22 to number 6, I saw
2 Pero Mrkajic in a pitiful state, all beaten up, lying on
3 some boxes.
4 Q. Had you known him before the war, that is Pero Mrkajic?
5 A. Yes, I had.
6 Q. When you saw him lying on these boxes, do you know
7 approximately how long he was kept on the boxes or how
8 long he was lying on the boxes for?
9 A. I could not say, but not for long.
10 Q. Did there come a time when he was taken from there?
11 A. Yes, there did. He was taken to number 22, where there
12 had been established a ward, where I had been before
14 Q. So the use of room 22 had been changed to a medical type
15 place, had it?
16 A. Yes, so they told us.
17 Q. Did you ever see Pero Mrkajic again after he had been
18 taken to this ward, that is room 22?
19 A. No, later, after I do not remember how much time, we
20 found out that he had died; he had succumbed to his
22 Q. When you were in the camp did you come to know a person
23 by the name of Kuljanin with the nickname Corba?
24 A. Yes, I saw him in number 6 in the hangar number 6 when
25 we from number 22 came there.
1 Q. Did you ever see anything happen to him during the
2 period of time that he was in the camp that comes to
4 A. During the Bairam holiday in 1992, he was taken out, his
5 name was called out, he was taken out of the hangar. He
6 was then beaten.
7 Q. Did you see this beating?
8 A. No, I could hear him screaming.
9 Q. Do you know who took him out?
10 A. Esad Landzo took him out. Then he came inside the
11 hangar and after a short while, I do not remember
12 exactly how long, he called out his name.
13 Q. When you say "he called out his name", who called out
14 his name?
15 A. Esad Landzo did. Then a rifle shot could be heard and
16 later we heard that he was killed, executed.
17 Q. But you did not see this?
18 A. No, I did not see it with my own eyes, but some of the
19 camp inmates had seen it.
20 Q. This person Kuljanin, about what age was he?
21 A. I do not know exactly, perhaps he was several years my
23 Q. If you could just assist us by saying whether it was 30s
24 or 40s or 50s? You do not need to be precise.
25 A. 30 years, perhaps of age.
1 Q. Do you know what his ethnic group was?
2 A. He was a Serb from the village of Bradina.
3 Q. When you were in the camp, did you also see there a
4 person that you knew called Scepo Gotovac?
5 A. Scepo Gotovac came from my village. Of course I knew
6 him. He was brought to number 6. I do not remember the
7 date, I believe that it was on the orders of Hazim
8 Delic, because when he was brought there and placed in
9 number 6, the hangar, Hazim Delic slapped his face and
10 told him that he would take his revenge upon him.
11 Q. Did you hear this?
12 A. Yes, all of us heard it.
13 Q. Did you see it?
14 A. It was by the door. Yes, of course I did see it. It
15 was inside, in the hangar.
16 Q. What happened then?
17 A. He was taken out.
18 Q. Who took him out?
19 A. Zenga called out his name, then we heard a scream. We
20 heard him screaming for 30 or 45 minutes. Then they put
21 him back in the hangar and several hours later his name
22 was called out again.
23 Q. Who called his name out again?
24 A. Zenga did. He was holding something in his hand.
25 Q. Who was holding something in his hand?
1 A. Zenga was. He sort of stuck it into his neck and he
2 pushed Scepo Gotovac outside. Then we heard a scream
3 again, then Zenga came inside after perhaps half an hour
4 or 40 minutes, and he ordered two of the detainees --
5 Q. Who ordered two of the detainees?
6 A. Zenga did -- to bring him, Scepo Gotovac inside. While
7 he was outside for the second time, while he was being
8 beaten outside for the second time, for a time we could
9 hear him moaning and screaming, and at a certain point
10 it stopped. We could no longer hear him screaming. Of
11 the detainees, Novica went out and his brother Toso
12 Brdzani and they brought Scepo Gotovac half dead
13 inside. In the morning I saw that he was dead.
14 Q. How do you know he was dead?
15 A. We went out to go to the toilet and I saw him, he was
16 not far.
17 Q. Are you able to estimate his age, Scepo Gotovac?
18 A. He was an elderly man, perhaps he was born in 1929 or
19 so, I am not sure. 1929 is his year of birth.
20 Q. Do you know what his ethnic background was?
21 A. He was a Serb.
22 Q. While you were in the camp did you come to know a person
23 by the name of Bosko Samoukovic?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Where was this man in the camp in relation to you?
1 A. He sat in the direction of the door, next to the wall of
2 the hangar.
3 Q. This was hangar number 6, was it?
4 A. Yes, hangar number 6.
5 Q. While he was in the camp did you see anything happen to
7 A. Yes. He was beaten, both inside and outside the
8 hangar. Zenga hit him with his rifle butt. He kicked
9 him and he hit him with a stick.
10 Q. Were you able to see this yourself?
11 A. Inside we were able to see it and, of course, outside
12 I could not see it. After that he was transferred to
13 the so-called infirmary at number 22, and after some
14 time, I do not know how much time elapsed, I cannot
15 remember that, since he had two sons there, Nedeljko and
16 Milan, they were informed that he had died, that he had
18 Q. Did you see him again after you had been taken away to
19 room 22 yourself?
20 A. No, I did not.
21 Q. Are you able to tell us approximately what age group he
23 A. Maybe in his 50s, between 50 and 60.
24 Q. And his ethnic group?
25 A. Serb, from the village of Bradina.
1 Q. Do you know approximately what time during the period of
2 time you were in the Celebici camp that this happened?
3 A. It was before we were registered by the International
4 Red Cross. I think this was sometime in June or the
5 beginning of July. I do not know exactly.
6 Q. Again, while you were in the camp, did you come to know
7 a person that had a nickname, Keljo?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Had you known him before the war or known of him?
10 A. I did not know him before the war, but I knew that he
11 had a cafe in town but I did not know him before the
13 Q. Did you come to know him in the camp?
14 A. Yes, I saw him in the camp.
15 Q. Where did you see him?
16 A. He was brought in later, after I had got to hangar
17 number 6.
18 Q. Was he brought to hangar number 6?
19 A. Yes, to number 6, that is where I met him.
20 Q. How long was he in the camp for?
21 A. I cannot say exactly how long it was, maybe a month or
22 two, I really do not know.
23 Q. Did something happen to him?
24 A. Yes. One evening, a friend of his came, a Muslim. He
25 brought him some cigarettes. We could hear, all of us
1 in the hangar, at least those who were closer to him,
2 Hazim Delic said to this friend of him, Keljo's friend,
3 I mean, "why are you giving him that? He will not see
4 the day tomorrow", and he did not, in fact. In the
5 early morning, he was called out --
6 Q. Who called him out?
7 A. I really could not say. One of the guards.
8 Q. What happened when he was taken out?
9 A. He was shot.
10 Q. Did you hear this?
11 A. Some of the detainees were outside at the time, they
12 were cleaning up. He was killed by Padalovic, as I was
13 informed later, or rather as we in the hangar heard
15 Q. After he had been shot did you have to do anything in
16 relation to him?
17 A. Yes. After maybe an hour I was called out by Esad
18 Landzo, known as Zenga, and he took me behind the hangar
19 holding in his hand a grenade. He said to me that I had
20 to remove the ring from Keljo's hand. How come he had
21 that ring, I do not know myself. I was terrified, and
22 he said that if I did not do it he would kill me with
23 this grenade. I approached the body. I really do not
24 know now how I managed to take off that ring. In that
25 fear I somehow did, but before that I was having a hard
1 time doing it and he said if I did not succeed I would
2 have to cut off his finger. I gave him that ring as
3 I did manage to take it off, and he said to me that
4 I must not tell anyone because he would kill me.
5 Q. When you were taking the ring off Keljo's finger did he
6 appear to you to be dead or alive?
7 A. Dead.
8 Q. Again while you were in the camp did you see there a
9 person that you knew by the name of Zeljko Cecez?
10 A. I knew Zeljko before I came to the camp. He was from
11 Donje Selo.
12 Q. Did he have a nickname?
13 A. Yes. Before the war, his nickname was Spanac, or "the
14 Spaniard". That is how his neighbours called him, in
15 the 1980s and in the 1970s. How he came to the
16 nicknamed thus I do not know.
17 Q. Can you tell us what approximate age he was or what age
19 A. Zeljko may have been about 28. I think he was born in
20 1961 or 1962.
21 Q. Do you know what his ethnic background was?
22 A. A Serb.
23 Q. Where was he located in the camp while you were there,
24 in what place?
25 A. He sat behind my back in number 6, the row behind my
2 Q. During the time that you were in the Celebici camp in
3 hangar number 6, did you see something happen to Zeljko?
4 A. Yes. Also during that holiday, ^ Kurban Bairam, the
5 first or second night, I think it was the second or the
6 first, I am not sure. He was called out by Zenga. One
7 could hear moans outside, this was in the evening. The
8 cries could be heard, I do not know for how long. Then
9 the doors of the hangar opened and he fell inside like a
10 sack. Zenga was still hitting him.
11 Q. What was he hitting him with?
12 A. He was kicking him, and I do not know exactly, I think
13 he had a plank. He was crawling, he was going on all
14 fours to reach his position. However, his strength
15 caved in and he fell. We did not dare move any one of
16 us to help him reach his place. When Zenga went out and
17 when the door was closed behind him, I do not know
18 exactly who it was who got up and dragged him to his
19 place. In the morning, he was dead. He was lying there
21 Q. Did you see him in the morning, see his body in the
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. What was it about what you saw of his body that made you
25 think he was dead?
1 A. The people who were sitting right next to him on his
2 left and his right gave us the sign that it was all over
3 for him, that he had died and one could see by his face,
4 though it was all beaten up, it was yellow.
5 Q. Again while in the camp, did you come to know a person
6 with the name Milosevic?
7 A. Milosevic is someone I did not know before the camp.
8 I only know that he came from the village of Dzepi and
9 I learned that in the camp. That is where I met him.
10 Q. Did you ever see anything or hear anything happening to
12 A. As far as I know Milosevic was beaten very badly, both
13 inside and out. He was beaten by Delic also, and he
14 died from the beatings, but I cannot describe that in
15 any detail.
16 Q. Again during the period of time that you were in hangar
17 number 6, do you recall an incident where some prisoners
18 were playing cards?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. When did this incident happen, approximately?
21 A. I cannot say exactly, but I think it was towards the end
22 of August or perhaps in September.
23 Q. Some detainees had made some cardboard cards so as to
24 while away the time somehow. However, no one asked the
25 deputy commander of the camp, Delic, but one of the
1 guards saw this and informed Delic. Delic came shortly
2 after that and he beat us up en masse.
3 A. When you say "beat us up", just the people playing cards
4 or other people as well?
5 A. Those who were playing and those who had made them.
6 Q. Were you in this group?
7 A. Yes, because I was playing.
8 Q. How long did this beating go on for?
9 A. Maybe an hour.
10 Q. Was it only Delic that beat you, Hazim Delic, or was
11 there somebody else there beating?
12 A. There were other guards too, but mostly Hazim was the
13 one who hit us.
14 Q. Did he say anything to you while he was beating you?
15 A. No, he just said "turn around to face the wall of the
16 hangar" and then he would beat us, and then he would go
17 on to the next one.
18 Q. Do you recall what it was that you were being beaten
20 A. On that occasion when we had been playing those cards
21 which we had made, he hit us with a spade, so that we
22 had to spread our legs apart and our arms apart, and
23 stand there facing the wall of the hangar.
24 Q. On what part of your body were you hit, can you
1 A. From our knees upwards, on our thighs.
2 Q. Did you ever see an incident when you were in hangar
3 number 6 where people were burnt with hot knives?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Where were you when you saw this happen?
6 A. I saw (redacted) when he was first called out, and
7 then after some time he was brought back in. He had a
8 terrible expression on his face. One could see that he
9 was in terrible pain and he showed us his hands, and one
10 could see the markings of a knife. The skin was all
11 burnt, and then he told us both he and the other people
12 who were taken out on that occasion, that Zenga had
13 heated a knife until it was red hot, and then they had
14 to hold it in their hands, and this, of course, would
15 burn their skin on their palms. This was on their
17 Q. You mentioned one occasion when a group of prisoners
18 were beaten when playing cards. Were there other
19 occasions when a whole group of people were beaten?
20 A. Yes. There were several such massive beatings, beatings
21 of large groups, and there were occasions when each and
22 every detainee was beaten. We called these "massive
24 Q. Where did these take place?
25 A. In number 6.
1 Q. Who participated in these beatings? Who was the one
2 that was carrying out the beatings? Can you name some
3 of them?
4 A. I remember when the International Red Cross had
5 registered us and some of the detainees tried to tell
6 them of the situation we were in. However, afterwards,
7 while the International Red Cross had still not even
8 left, certainly they had not left Celebici, I do not
9 know whether they had left the camp itself, Delic walked
10 in with about 12 or 13 guards. He ordered us all to put
11 our hands behind our heads and then they went round
12 kicking us in the ribs.
13 Q. Apart from kicking you in the ribs did they hit you with
15 A. Now and then one of them would hit us with a rifle
16 butt. I also remember another such mass beating when
17 some Muslim soldiers fell into an ambush made by their
18 own people between Bradina and Repovci, so they all got
19 killed in that ambush. Delic together with some other
20 guards beat us, virtually all the detainees, and
21 especially those from the village of Bradina. He beat
22 us with his fists, with his boots. Sometimes he would
23 give us a karate blow. This was the case with Ranko
24 Gligorevic, known as Buco.
25 Q. Do you recall an incident were you were burnt with a
2 A. Yes, I do.
3 Q. Can you tell us when that happened?
4 A. I cannot recall exactly the date when this happened.
5 Zenga, on that day, had done this to someone else before
6 me. He tied the slow burning fuse, we call it the cord,
7 round the naked bodies of detainees.
8 Q. Did you see this happen yourself, did you see this
9 happen to these other men?
10 A. It was done to me, too.
11 Q. I am asking you, did you see it happen to the other men
12 ahead of you?
13 A. Yes, it was inside, in the hangar. I was called out
14 also by name. I was told to get up. He tied this fuse
15 between my legs, on my naked skin, and I had to take off
16 my pants and my sweat suit that I had on, up to my
17 knees. One end was inside, and then on top of that
18 I would put on my pants and my jogging suit and the
19 other end was free, outside. He would tie my hands
20 behind my back, and then he would set light to it.
21 Q. When you say you had to strip down, did you have to
22 strip down to your naked body?
23 A. From my waist to my knees I was naked.
24 Q. Was the fuse wrapped around your body or just -- perhaps
25 you could describe. Where was the fuse wrapped?
1 A. The fuse was wrapped between my legs and then one end
2 would stay in my pants, in my particular case it was
3 right next to the body below my underwear and the other
4 end was outside, free.
5 Q. Once the fuse had been put next to your naked skin, did
6 you then have to pull up your underwear?
7 A. Yes, and then he would tie my hands behind my back.
8 Q. Is this what you saw happen to the other prisoners?
9 A. Yes, before me it was done to Vukasin Mrkajic, I think
10 Veseljko Djordjic or his brother and some others.
11 Q. What happened to them that you could see before
12 something happened to you?
13 A. When he did all this, when he wrapped the fuse like this
14 and when they put on their pants and underwear and tie
15 their hands behind their back and set light to it, then
16 people were in great pain. They were almost jumping
17 around half a metre high, making leaps into the air from
18 the pain when the fuse started burning right next to the
19 skin. They would roll over on the concrete floor until
20 somehow they would manage to put it out with their own
21 body. They would extinguish it rolling around like
23 Q. Was Zenga on his own when he was doing this or was he
24 with other guards?
25 A. Osman Dedic was with him most times.
1 Q. Would he say anything or do anything while this was
3 A. He would laugh, he would laugh. To him, it seemed very
5 Q. What happened to you?
6 A. Then he called me by name and told me to get up. He
7 ordered me to take off my sweat suit up to my knees and
8 my underwear, then he also tied this fuse round my body
9 and ordered me to put back on my underwear and my sweat
10 suit, to put my hands behind my back. The end of the
11 fuse, which was uncovered, it was about 10 centimetres
12 long, this uncovered end, and when he set light to it,
13 because I had seen this happen to others before me,
14 I saw that the best thing to do was to lie down as soon
15 as possible and roll around to put the fire out, and
16 I managed, before it reached my skin, to extinguish the
17 fuse, but he did not like that.
18 Q. When you say "he did not like it", who did not like it?
19 A. Zenga. He hit me with his rifle, with the butt of his
20 rifle. He sent me back to my place.
21 Q. Was there another incident when a bullet was shown to
23 A. Yes, there was.
24 Q. When did that happen?
25 A. I cannot precisely recall the exact time, the date.
1 There were many beatings, very many unpleasant incidents
2 and situations, but I think that it was some time around
3 August, in August.
4 Q. Can you describe this incident for us, please?
5 A. Yes. He called me out --
6 Q. Who called you out?
7 A. Zenga did. He told me to go out and he himself was out,
9 Q. When you say "out", that is outside the hangar, is it?
10 A. Yes. What I am about to describe, he did, before he did
11 it to me, to Vukasin Mrkajic, Bosko Samoukovic, Spaso
12 Miljevic, as well as to some others, and when Vukasin
13 Mrkajic was the object of this and he did the same thing
14 as I am about to tell you he did to me, when he was
15 doing that to him, what he was to do to me later, he
16 told Vukasin Mrkajic to call me out.
17 Q. But you did not see what happened to the other men?
18 A. No, I later heard.
19 Q. Just tell us what happened to you.
20 A. Yes. I went out, I walked up to him, to a distance of
21 some five metres from him.
22 Q. This is as you walked up to Zenga?
23 A. Yes, I mean Zenga. He told me to kneel. He ordered me
24 to kneel, and I did. He showed me this bullet. He
25 asked me, "what is this?", and I said, "it is a
1 bullet". Then he showed me his rifle and he asked me
2 what that was, and I said "rifle". I saw with my own
3 eyes him put a bullet into the rifle barrel and cock.
4 He told me to open my mouth wide. He approached me.
5 I opened my mouth wide. I thought that my pain would be
6 over and that would be the end. He shot. I did not
7 know whether I was dead or alive. I could only feel
8 some sort of a fire burning inside my mouth. It took me
9 a minute to come to and to realise, to see whether I was
10 alive at all. He was laughing and then he sent me back
11 to the hangar.
12 Q. What do you think actually happened?
13 A. Later we found out from the other guards there that he
14 actually took out the powder, somehow had emptied the
15 powder, the charge from the bullet, so that actually the
16 bullet could not be activated when it was being shot.
17 It would just burn you inside, singe the inside of your
19 Q. Do you recall another incident that happened in the
20 canal where the prisoners used to urinate?
21 A. Yes, this appeared, as I mentioned before that they were
22 ambushed by their own Muslim soldiers, so they fell into
23 this ambush which had been staged by their own people.
24 Q. You do not need to repeat that. Just tell us the
25 incident, if you would.
1 A. Yes. In the morning as we were going out to urinate, we
2 would go in groups of about 20.
3 Q. Was this the sort of standard procedure, to go out each
4 morning to urinate?
5 A. Yes, at the time it was.
6 Q. Where would you urinate?
7 A. Just to the left-hand side of the door, there was this
8 sort of a ditch, canal, which was some 10 or 15 metres
9 away from hangar number 6.
10 Q. On this particular occasion what happened?
11 A. Before the door was opened we heard some sort of a
12 racket in front of the hangar, and as soon as the door
13 was opened Zenga started hitting some people and was
14 telling them to approach him, and I later heard that
15 after this first group had -- that is what I heard after
16 this first group had returned from the urination. We
17 were scared, we did not know what was going on. We did
18 not know what was happening.
19 So when this group, in which I also was, this
20 group of 10 people went out to urinate, Zenga called me,
21 told me to come to him, and I walked up to him and he
22 hit me two or three times, and at a point which was some
23 2 metres from the last man on the right side in the
24 line of men who were urinating, he ordered me to drink
1 Q. From where were you to drink this urine?
2 A. From the canal into which the others were urinating at
3 the same time.
4 Q. The men were urinating at that time?
5 A. Yes, this group with which I had gone out to urinate,
6 and he also pressed my head and he pushed my head down.
7 He hit me very strongly with his rifle butt on the back,
8 and he pushed my head down into the canal so that the
9 urine was in my mouth and I actually drank it. He held
10 me in that position until I could no longer endure it.
11 Q. Were you lying down with your head in the canal or were
12 you kneeling down?
13 A. I was kneeling.
14 Q. How was he holding your head down into the canal?
15 A. He actually pressed the back of my head, the rifle butt
16 against the back of my head.
17 Q. Did the urine cover your face?
18 A. Yes, my head was immersed in the urine; my head, my
19 face, my mouth, my nose.
20 Q. Did you actually take the urine into your body?
21 A. Yes, I did.
22 Q. Do you recall another incident when prisoners were
23 forced to eat grass?
24 A. Yes, I do.
25 Q. Can you describe what happened on that occasion?
1 A. I will describe what happened to me.
2 Q. Yes.
3 A. Zenga called me out. There were some other guards
4 there, I believe that Zeba Cosic from the Muslim village
5 of Idbar was also there. There they started to hit me
6 and they ordered me to eat grass, to pluck the grass, so
7 I grazed and I swallowed. I was subjected to the same
8 treatment later by this guard from Idbar several times,
9 on several occasions and Zenga did not force me to graze
11 Q. So what you are saying is, it was only one occasion when
12 Zenga forced you to eat the grass?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Do you recall an incident seeing something happen when a
15 prisoner was forced to drink large quantities of
17 A. Yes, I do. This was Vukasin Mrkajic. We would be taken
18 out and this was done by Hazim Delic. He would order us
19 out in front of hangar number 6, and we had to sit on
20 the concrete in rows. We would have to strip naked to
21 the waist, and then on one occasion after having taken
22 us out and ordered us to sit thus, he brought for
23 Vukasin Mrkajic a bottle, a cognac bottle, and told him
24 to gulp it down over a very short period.
25 Q. Who told him to do this?
1 A. Delic did. Then Vukasin Mrkajic had to. Then he had to
2 imitate the driving of a car, a car riding in terms of
3 sounds that a car made and also to present the picture
4 of a car being driven around. The guards and Delic
5 found this very amusing and funny and they laughed.
6 Q. While you were in the camp did you know of two brothers
7 who were prisoners there by the name Dordic?
8 A. Yes, I did, in the camp. I had not known them before
9 I came to the camp.
10 Q. Where were they in the camp so that you came to know
12 A. They were brought later. They were brought later than
13 the day to when I was brought to hangar number 6.
14 I believe they were brought when this incident took
15 place, the one involving Muslim soldiers who were
16 ambushed by their own people and who were killed on that
17 occasion. I believe it was on that day, but I am not
18 quite sure. They were brought and they were put on the
19 right side from the door, inside, in the camp --
20 Q. In the same hangar as you?
21 A. Yes, in 6, in number 6.
22 Q. Did you see something happen to these people, these two
24 A. I did. I saw them being hit frequently, hit hard. On
25 one occasion, Zenga ordered one of the two -- actually
1 forced one of the two to perform oral sex, fellatio. He
2 ordered one of them to strip bare, down to his knees,
3 and the other one had to hold his genitals in the mouth
4 to perform fellatio.
5 Q. Were you able to see this from where you were?
6 A. Of course.
7 Q. Did he actually take the other man's genitals into his
8 mouth from what you could see?
9 A. One of the brothers had to put the other brother's
10 member in his mouth, because Zenga threatened that he
11 would kill them both unless he did it.
12 Q. Had Zenga beaten them prior to forcing them to do this?
13 A. Yes, of course, very much so.
14 Q. Apart from Zenga, were any of the other guards there at
15 the time?
16 A. Osman Dedic, of those that were inside. I do not know
17 who was outside. They laughed at the scene and we could
18 hear voices coming from outside as well, from in front
19 of the door. We could hear laughter actually.
20 Q. Apart from these incidents, were prisoners ever forced
21 to sing songs or say prayers? Did incidents like that
23 A. I did not sing, but I heard from the detainees that some
24 did sing. On one occasion Delic took us out in front of
25 number 6 and ordered us to sit down on the concrete.
1 From the town of Konjic then came a wealthy man by the
2 name of Smajic, whose nickname was Kurecen, and Delic
3 ordered us to utter, to say "Allah U Akbar". He would
4 ask, he would say, Delic, "who is the greatest?" We
5 would say "Allah" once, and the other time Kurecen.
6 Q. How long did this go on for?
7 A. This went on for some 20 minutes or half an hour,
9 Q. Did it only happen on the one occasion, so far as you
10 are concerned, or did it happen more than once?
11 A. It only happened once, at least as far as I myself am
13 Q. Do you recall an occasion when the International
14 Committee of the Red Cross visited the Celebici camp?
15 A. Yes, I do.
16 Q. When did they come to the camp?
17 A. They came, we had been registered. We were registered
18 on 12th August 1992. This was the first time when they
19 came to visit the camp in Celebici. There was
20 Mr. Michel, I believe he was French. He was the head of
21 this team that visited Celebici.
22 Q. Apart from registering the prisoners, did they do
23 anything else while they were there that you could see?
24 A. Yes, they did. During one visit of theirs, when they
25 came as we were going out to urinate, Mr. Michel had a
1 stopwatch in his hand and he stood by the door and he
2 measured the time during which we were to perform it
3 all. I believe that the time was around two minutes per
4 group of 20 inmates. I know that he waved his head, but
5 nothing changed for the better after that.
6 Q. Did the Red Cross come back again after the initial
8 A. They were there then, and after they had registered us,
9 they left -- he left. They came later again after a
10 certain period of time. I do not know after how long,
11 but two months must have elapsed.
12 Q. I am going to ask you, if you would, to describe for the
13 court some of the conditions that prevailed in the camp
14 during the period of time you were there. Firstly, can
15 you tell their Honours the toilet facilities that were
16 available to the inmates in the camp during that time?
17 You have given some description, I think, in your
18 evidence of the place where you had to urinate, but can
19 you give the Chamber some more details of what
20 facilities were provided for you in relation to toilets?
21 A. Yes, I will describe these conditions for you. While
22 I was in number 22 we would go out to go to the toilet,
23 which was outside. This was the procedure; we had to
24 put caps, pull down caps on our heads and then we would
25 go to the toilet thus, and on our way to the toilet and
1 on our way back they would hit us. They gave this sort
2 of a cap, the guards gave us a cap. Where they got it
3 from I do not know.
4 Each one of us had to put this cap on his head so
5 that they would not be recognised, that we would not be
6 recognised when we were being beaten. After some time,
7 we did not use this cap any longer. The conditions in
8 number 6 were horrendous. We lay in hangar number 6 on
9 the concrete floor, and I slept on the bare concrete
10 floor for some two or three months. There were no baths
11 in the beginning at all. We were not allowed any
12 visits. No one could come to bring us a fresh change of
14 For a toilet, we used some kind of a bucket which
15 was inside the hangar, it stood by the door.
16 Q. Was there any privacy provided for the toilet?
17 A. I do not understand.
18 Q. Did the toilet have any sort of screen around it so you
19 could have some privacy when you were going to the
21 A. No, none at all, just a metre or two from this bucket
22 were the other inmates, the other detainees who were
23 accommodated to the right from the door. Also to the
24 left from the door there were also detainees. We used
25 this bucket most often at night when we would be shut
1 up, locked up. In the day, we did not dare be found
2 there by any of the guards; that is to say when the
3 guards came in or when Delic came in. We had to sit in
4 our respective places.
5 There was a foul stench and we also had our meals
6 in that same place. It was very dusty, filthy. The
7 people were infested with lice and I myself also had
8 lice. The conditions were appalling.
9 Q. Where you sat in your place, did they give you anything
10 at all to sit on, or did you sit straight on to the
12 A. During the first two months I sit on the bare concrete.
13 Later we were allowed to have a blanket each; we were
14 allowed that our people could bring us a blanket each
15 from our home, so I got a blanket and later I sat on it.
16 Q. Were you at any stage offered medical treatment while
17 you were in the camp?
18 A. While I was in the camp, in number 6?
19 Q. Yes.
20 A. I was beaten many times and never was any medical
21 assistance extended to me.
22 Q. What was the food and water supplied to you like? Can
23 you describe that?
24 A. The food was horrible. For a time, we only received a
25 loaf of bread for 17 detainees. One loaf had to be
1 shared between 17 detainees, without any vegetables.
2 Then later we would get some cooked food, some
3 vegetables. We went to eat in groups of five, right
4 there next to the door where the bucket which
5 I described was. That bucket would be taken out during
6 the day. One detainee could have four or five spoonfuls
7 of rice, mostly it was rice, sometimes it was too salty,
8 sometimes it was not salty enough, but the main thing is
9 it was never sufficient. It was not enough in terms of
10 quantity, and we all used five spoons, and we ate in
11 groups of five.
12 MR. NIEMANN: Is that a convenient time, your Honour?
13 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Yes, Mr. Niemann. I think we will break
14 now and come back at 4.30.
15 (4.00 pm)
16 (A short break)
17 (4.30 pm)
18 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Good afternoon, ladies and gentlemen.
19 You may proceed, Mr. Niemann.
20 MR. NIEMANN: Thank you, your Honour. Sir, when you were in
21 the Celebici camp, did you know a person who was also a
22 prisoner in the camp by the name of Damir Gotovac?
23 A. Damir Gotovac? Yes, I did know him before the war
24 because he is from my village of Bjelovcina, but he
25 lived in Celebici for a time and he was born in
2 Q. When he was in the camp, was he kept in the same hangar
3 as yourself?
4 A. Yes, he was in hangar number 6.
5 Q. Do you recall an incident which involved both you and
6 Damir Gotovac?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. What happened?
9 A. On one occasion he was taken out, his name was called
11 Q. Who called him out, do you know?
12 A. Zenga. One heard a cry, and maybe about ten minutes
13 later one of the guards, I do not now recall which,
14 called me out as well. I saw Damir there, Zenga was
15 hitting him and he fainted and fell to the ground. Then
16 Zenga told me to kill him, I mean to beat him to death.
17 I said I could not do that. Let him kill me. Then they
18 started hitting me, Zenga was there, and I think Osman
19 Dedic as well. They started hitting me and then they
20 ordered Damir to kill me. He refused, he said he could
21 not do it. Then they beat both of us. I do not know
22 how long this lasted. It was not for long, maybe half a
23 hour, and then they sent us back into the hangar.
24 Q. When you saw Damir when you went out there and he had
25 been beaten, was he wearing anything that you can recall
1 on his head?
2 A. Yes, he had a protective mask, military mask.
3 Q. Did that cover his face?
4 A. Yes, this mask was on his head. It was a gas mask.
5 Q. You mentioned earlier in your evidence that you saw the
6 camp commander, Mr. Mucic, come to the camp on a number
7 of occasions.
8 A. Mr. Zdravko Mucic is somebody I did not know from before,
9 but the first night I spent in Celebici in the camp in
10 number 22, Pavo came with, I think, Pero Serbia, as he
11 was called, came with him. I learnt that later from the
12 other detainees. He came through the door of room 22,
13 and he said that he was the camp commander or head of
14 the camp. I was standing near the door and the man who
15 was with him was pushing us. Pavo said that we stank,
16 that we smelled bad. He looked us over. I do not
17 remember whether he spoke to anyone, but he left soon
19 Q. You have also said in your evidence that when you first
20 arrived at the Celebici camp you were in room number 22
21 and you then went to hangar number 6. Did you stay in
22 hangar number 6 for the entire period or the balance of
23 the period that you were in Celebici, or did you go
24 somewhere else?
25 A. No, from hangar number 6 when a large number of
1 detainees were transferred to the sports hall in Musala,
2 there were 32 of us left, 32 detainees, who were
3 transferred to room 22 where I had been before.
4 Q. When did you ultimately leave the camp?
5 A. On 9th December we were transferred to the sports hall
6 in Konjic.
7 Q. Did Mr. Landzo stay at the camp for the whole time that
8 you were there, or did he leave?
9 A. For a period of time, I do not know exactly from which
10 date until which date, he was not at the camp in
11 Celebici, but this was a short period of time.
12 Q. Do you know anything about the circumstances of how it
13 is that he came to leave the camp?
14 A. I do not know exactly, but I heard that --
15 MS. McMURREY: Your Honour, I am going to object as to his
16 personal knowledge. We do not know where he heard this
17 from. I know my learned colleague Mr. Niemann knows he
18 needs to lay the proper basis.
19 MR. NIEMANN: I will not press it. Just tell us what you
20 yourself know.
21 Was Mr. Mucic at the camp for the whole period of
22 time you were there, that is the Celebici camp, or did
23 he leave at some stage?
24 A. Zdravko Mucic, known as Pavo, would come by
25 occasionally. Sometimes he would not be there for as
1 long as ten days.
2 Q. After you left Celebici camp, where were you taken then?
3 A. From Celebici, you mean?
4 Q. Yes.
5 A. I was taken to the sports hall at the Musala prison in
6 Konjic, with the 32 detainees, the last remaining group
7 of detainees.
8 Q. Do you know who was in charge of the Musala facility?
9 A. When I arrived at Musala, at that time I am not quite
10 sure, but I think somebody called Broceta, but I do not
11 know his first name.
12 Q. Did he remain the commander of that camp or facility, or
13 did the command change?
14 A. During our stay at the sports hall in Konjic quite a
15 number of the prison administrators changed.
16 Q. Among the prison population in Musala, I mean the people
17 who were being detained, I should say, were any of the
18 former guards from Celebici there being detained along
19 with the other people?
20 A. Yes, they were.
21 Q. Can you tell us who they were?
22 A. A guard who was in Celebici, Kemo -- I think his name
23 was Mrndzic, for a time he was in charge of the camp in
24 Konjic. In Celebici, he beat us, but in Konjic, he was
25 a good commander.
1 Q. Anyone else that you can think of that was also being
2 detained in Musala?
3 A. I do not understand. What do you mean, detained?
4 Q. Imprisoned there, kept there as a prisoner. Any of the
5 former personnel from Celebici?
6 A. Yes, I understand now. For a time Esad Landzo was
7 imprisoned there, Hazim Delic, who had been at Celebici,
8 and they were also prisoners in Konjic at Musala.
9 Q. When Hazim Delic was also being detained as a prisoner
10 in Musala, did you have a conversation with him?
11 A. At that time we were upstairs in a part of the building
12 that was known as the gym. He could come up whenever he
13 wanted. He came during the daytime. He did not talk to
14 me but he spoke to some other detainees.
15 Q. Did you hear the conversation?
16 A. He would come in and once --
17 Q. I only want you to tell us if you actually heard him
18 speak yourself.
19 A. On one occasion, I cannot recall exactly who he was
20 talking to, one of the detainees, he said that the data
21 about all the victims from Celebici, when they were
22 born, what village they came from, even how old they
23 were -- I can say that much, nothing more.
24 Q. During the period of time that you were detained in
25 Musala camp, was there any mistreatment to the prisoners
1 occurring that you could observe?
2 A. Yes, for a time when Edo Zilic was in charge of the
3 camp, or the prison rather, ten of us, and I was one of
4 them, were told to go do some labour --
5 Q. I will not ask you to go into details, I just wanted you
6 to say yes or no, whether it occurred -- whether there
7 was any mistreatment while you were in the Musala camp,
8 but I will not ask you to give details of that.
9 A. There was less, but there was some. Less, much less.
10 MR. NIEMANN: I have no further questions, your Honour.
11 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: The order in which you have agreed to
12 take the cross-examination?
13 MR. O'SULLIVAN: Yes, your Honour. First counsel for
14 Mr. Delalic, second counsel for Mr. Mucic, third counsel
15 for Mr. Delic and fourth counsel for Mr. Landzo.
16 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: You may proceed, Ms. Residovic.
17 Cross-examined by MS. RESIDOVIC
18 Q. Thank you, your Honours. Good afternoon, Mr. Vukalo.
19 A. Good afternoon.
20 Q. My name is Edina Residovic, I am Defence counsel for
21 Mr. Zejnil Delalic. I would like to ask you, Mr. Vukalo,
22 to wait to hear the interpretation of my question, the
23 interpretation into English, and when the interpretation
24 is over to answer my question, because in that way
25 everyone can follow what we are saying. Have I made
1 myself clear?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Thank you. Mr. Vukalo, in the course of your
4 examination-in-chief by the Prosecutor you provided the
5 basic data about yourself. We know that you came from
6 Konjic, that before the war you were working at the
7 Igman factory until you were laid off just before the
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Mr. Vukalo, I would like to know whether you became a
11 member of the SDS immediately after it was founded in
12 the municipality of Konjic?
13 A. After the SDS party was founded, and the SDA party, the
14 HDZ party, I did not immediately join, but on one
15 occasion a man from the village of Bjelovcina who was a
16 drunkard, actually, I do not know how that came about,
17 but he joined the party and he picked up some membership
18 cards. Then he distributed those cards in the village.
19 Of course, he asked for some money for these cards, and
20 that is how in my village, people joined that party, so
21 that it was really not very serious.
22 Q. Therefore in 1992, before the outbreak of the conflict
23 in the territory of the Konjic municipality, Mr. Vukalo,
24 you became a member of the SDS in that way, did you not?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. Can you tell me, what is the name of the man who
2 distributed these membership cards?
3 A. I can, his name was Bozo Bendzo.
4 Q. Thank you. Were you aware that the SDS of Konjic was
5 preparing and then in March 1992 actually adopted a
6 decision on the formation of the Serb municipality of
7 Konjic to which your village of Bjelovcina was to
9 A. I knew very little about these things. I hardly knew
10 anything, in fact.
11 Q. Is it true, judging from the little that you did know,
12 that other citizens of Konjic who were not Serbs, knew
13 about this and who were severely opposed to such
14 activities, believing that this would break up the
15 municipality and that it was an anti-constitutional act?
16 A. My village was quite far removed from the town of
17 Konjic, and I did not know anything about this, who was
18 against and who was for this, and I was in the village
19 at the time.
20 Q. However, as you have already testified, at that time you
21 were working at the Igman factory in Konjic, which is
22 the most powerful, the most important factory in the
23 municipality. It is mostly engaged in military
24 production but you were working in the civilian
25 department. I want to know whether you noticed among
1 your colleagues from different ethnic groups, whether
2 they were disturbed by these activities?
3 A. I have already said that I was sent home to wait, and
4 I was at home.
5 Q. Will you tell me, please, Mr. Vukalo, is it true that
6 with that aim in mind, which you said you knew very
7 little about, the illegal arming of the Serb population
8 started by the JNA through the SDS?
9 A. As far as the arming is concerned, I was living in this
10 hamlet, Vukalo, which was about a kilometre away from
11 the closest hamlet, and I do not know exactly what was
13 Q. Mr. Vukalo, you know where Borci, Bjela and these places
14 are in the eastern part of the Konjic municipality in
15 the direction of Mount Prenj, on Mount Prenj actually?
16 A. Yes, of course, I do from before the war.
17 Q. And you probably know, Mr. Vukalo, that already in April
18 a part of the Serb population from the city was moving
19 in the direction of the Borci Lake?
20 A. As far as I know, I do not think anyone went from my
21 village. As for other villages and the town, maybe they
22 did, I do not know.
23 Q. But you probably know that Kister and Borci were already
24 under the control of the Serb forces already by then?
25 A. I am not aware of any Serb Army being there, nor do
1 I know anything about this.
2 Q. Do you know, Mr. Vukalo, that the other villages in which
3 the Serbs constituted a majority were also being armed
4 and that they had formed village guards on the main
5 roads, interrupted traffic, allegedly defending
6 themselves from attack?
7 A. My village, as I said, was surrounded by seven or eight
8 and more, perhaps, Muslim villages. In the direction of
9 the town there was the Croatian village of Pokojiste,
10 and the majority Serb population was in the village of
11 Bradina, so I do not know at all how this happened or
12 what happened.
13 Q. Mr. Vukalo, you were working in a military factory,
14 Igman, and you must know that the arming of the
15 Territorial Defence of the municipalities of Jablanica,
16 Konjic and Borci were housed in the Ljuta area in
18 A. I was working in the civilian section of the Igman
19 factory and never in my life did I go into the military
20 section of the factory. What there was there, I do not
22 Q. Mr. Vukalo, before your testimony here today, and before
23 you spoke to the authorised representative of the
24 Prosecutor of this Tribunal, did you also make a
25 statement before the district court of Belgrade in
1 October 1995?
2 A. I gave a statement, I made a statement in Belgrade to
3 this committee for the investigation of war crimes.
4 I do not remember the person before whom I made this
5 statement, and I also made a statement in the office of
6 The Hague Tribunal in Belgrade, and that is all.
7 Q. Mr. Vukalo, are you son of Spaso?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. And you were born on 29th March 1964?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. You say now, and you are aware of the fact that you are
12 speaking under oath, are you not?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Now you say that in October 1995 you did not make a
15 statement to the district court in Belgrade on
16 22nd October 1995?
17 A. I gave a statement to a man from this committee. That
18 is how he introduced himself, from the committee, from
19 Belgrade, as a court for the investigation of war
21 Q. Did this man who examined you introduce himself as
22 Paunovic Miodrag, investigative judge?
23 A. I believe that he did -- yes, he did.
24 Q. Did this judge, Mr. Vukalo, warn you that it was your
25 duty to tell the truth and that you were not to withhold
1 anything and that you were also warned of the
2 consequences of perjury and that you had the duty to
3 answer the questions put to you and that you were only
4 not to answer those questions, in respect of yourself or
5 a close relative of yours, which would inflict serious
6 outrage upon you or a relative of yours, or entail
7 material damage or a material prosecution for them; did
8 the judge warn you of this?
9 A. He asked me -- normally he asked me questions, and he
10 asked me to tell him -- of course, he asked me to tell
11 him the truth and I told him the truth.
12 Q. And you signed every single page of what you had stated
13 before that judge?
14 A. I did sign something, probably that.
15 Q. Counsel, if I read a part of this statement, please be
16 so kind as to tell me whether you had indeed stated this
17 to the judge. On page 2:
18 "In our quarters we Serbs are in the minority, but
19 we relied upon the JNA and believed they would protect
20 us. This belief was based on promises which the
21 military commanders gave to Rajko Djordjic and other
22 prominent Serbs in the area. The JNA, as far as I can
23 recall, in April 1992, the JNA, as an armed force,
24 withdrew from the region of Konjic, and Muslim forces
25 took over the military facilities."
1 Did you state this, Mr. Vukalo?
2 A. That is the way it was formulated. Could you please be
3 so kind, I apologise, as to repeat it once again.
4 Q. "In this area, we Serbs are in the minority, but we
5 relied on the JNA and we believed they would protect
6 us. This belief was based on the promises made by the
7 military commanders to Rajko Djordjic and other
8 prominent Serbs in the area. As far as I can remember
9 in April 1992 the JNA withdrew from the area of Konjic
10 as an armed force."
11 A. This knowledge, only when I went out from the camp to be
12 exchanged, actually I only heard then that some promises
13 of that kind were being given to Rajko, but I do not
14 know of it myself, whether that was actually the case,
15 but when I left, when I left the camp, I heard that from
16 some people down there in Ilidza.
17 Q. Mr. Vukalo, please, on the basis of these facts which you
18 presented to the judge as your own knowledge, do you
19 know that the JNA as an armed force gave armaments
20 through the SDS to the Serb population in the area of
21 the municipality of Konjic?
22 A. That it gave arms to the Serb population, that the JNA
23 gave arms to the Serb population is something I do not
25 Q. You have said before this Tribunal that in your village,
1 there was no defence at all, there had been no
2 preparations for a defence and that you had no arms; is
3 that so?
4 A. I said that I lived in my hamlet, in this hamlet where
5 there were five or six households, all by the surname of
6 Vukalo, and that as far as I knew there were very few
7 men in the entire village, able bodied men, that is, and
8 the village was surrounded by seven to eight Muslim
9 villages, and the Croat village of Pokojiste was also in
10 the surrounding belt and I was not aware of any
11 organising actions for defence.
12 Q. Mr. Vukalo, in that statement when you were warned that
13 it was your duty to tell the truth, just to remind you,
14 I shall read a statement and please tell me whether it
15 is true you stated this to the judge in Belgrade.
16 Page 2, paragraph 2:
17 "In order to protect ourselves and to preserve our
18 lives, the lives of the members of our families and our
19 property, we organised ourselves to defend ourselves
20 with the few arms that we had. We maintained guard duty
21 in order not to be suddenly attacked."
22 Are these the words that you said under oath to
23 the judge in Belgrade?
24 A. I arrived in Belgrade from the Serb republic, Republika
25 Srpska, then I was tired. I had used all sorts of
1 means of transportation to get there. Normally there
2 was some hunting weapons in the village, some hunting
3 rifles, and some people did have pistols, perhaps, but
4 I do not know of it. I do not know who. There may have
5 been some weapons, that is to say, I do not know how
6 many. The people in the various hamlets which composed
7 the village, we have these hamlets with five or ten
8 households in each, with 500 metres or a kilometre
9 dividing one from another.
10 Q. Thank you. But after you have explained this to us, now
11 this means, Mr. Vukalo, that this morning when answering
12 the questions of my distinguished colleague, the
13 Prosecutor, in connection with whether there had been
14 any defence and weapons and you replied in the negative,
15 you were not exactly giving wholly the exact facts that
16 you are aware of; is that not so?
17 A. I said that in my hamlet there was no defence mounted at
18 all, nor anything of the kind. That is what I said.
19 Q. Mr. Vukalo, if, before the investigating judge of the
20 district court in Belgrade, before whom you also gave an
21 account under oath, if then you said, "We did put up a
22 resistance and the combat lasted for about an hour, but
23 as we were outnumbered, we were defeated and we had to
24 retreat and we moved in the surrounding forest until we
25 were caught in the days after that together with the
1 women and children", that certainly differs from what
2 you have stated before this court?
3 A. When my village was attacked, when my hamlet was
4 attacked, not a single bullet -- I did not hear a single
5 bullet being fired from the direction of the houses in
6 the hamlet in which I lived; nor did I hear any bullet
7 fired from the village.
8 Later, after I had already been locked up in
9 Celebici, I found out that no one had been killed by the
10 Croat or Muslim army.
11 Q. But I am asking you, Mr. Vukalo, I only read your words,
12 the words you said in front of the investigative judge
13 in Belgrade. I am not discussing the fact whether they
14 are truthful or not, I just want to submit it to you
15 that in this record which you have signed, you have said
16 "we put up a resistance and the fight lasted for about
17 an hour" and so on and so forth. Did you state this
18 before that judge?
19 A. Maybe it was formulated thus, but that is not what
20 I said, that is for sure.
21 Q. So the judge wrote this down although you did not say it
22 in that way?
23 A. It may have been formulated thus, but that is certainly
24 not what I stated. There was no resistance, and later
25 I also found out in Celebici that no one had put up any
1 resistance, even the people that did have the hunting
2 rifles did not use them.
3 Q. Mr. Vukalo, you have just now said that you were admitted
4 to the SDS by Bendzo Dusko?
5 A. No, Bosko.
6 Q. I apologise, thank you. Do you know Dusko Bendzo?
7 A. He lives at the far end, at the beginning, so to speak,
8 of the village of Bjelovcina, and I am in the upper
9 section, on the other end, but I do know him.
10 Q. Bjelovcina is not a very large village. How many
11 inhabitants does it have?
12 A. Not too many, but the distances are great from hamlet to
14 Q. Do you know Strahinja Zivak, known as Strajo, from
16 A. That is the man whose sons were executed in Bradina.
17 Two of his sons were shot in Bradina, that is what
18 I heard. Do you mean that man?
19 Q. I do not know, I am asking you whether you know this
20 person. Do you know Strahinja Zivak who was the
21 vice-president of the SDS in the municipality of Konjic?
22 A. I have heard that two of his sons were executed down
23 there in Bradina, and I may have seen him, but I cannot
24 exactly say that I know him well.
25 Q. Is it true, Mr. Vukalo, that Dusko Bendzo was entrusted,
1 together with Strahinja Zivak, with arming the Serb
2 population in the area of your village?
3 A. I do not know of that.
4 Q. Mr. Vukalo, is it true that the deputy of Dusko Bendzo
5 was Slavoljub Bendzo, do you know him?
6 A. I know Slavoljub Bendzo. I do not believe he engaged in
7 any activities of that kind.
8 Q. Do you know Miro Djurdjic and Mirco Babic, Mr. Vukalo?
9 A. Of course I know Miro Djurdjic and Mirco Babic, of
10 course. They are from my village but from another
12 Q. Do you know that they had been charged with the task in
13 the SDS, of which you just happened to be a member, to
14 maintain contact, liaise with Strahinja Zivak?
15 A. Possibly. I cannot claim anything to that effect.
16 Q. Did you, Mr. Vukalo, somewhere around the end of January,
17 receive a call for the Reserve Corps of the JNA and
18 towards the end of that year actually join the reserve
19 corps in Mostar?
20 A. I hardly managed to serve the regular service in the
21 JNA, because of cardiac surgery, which, of course,
22 I have evidence of. I was operated on by Professor
23 Isidor Papo, so that I was not capable -- I was not
24 exactly militarily capable.
25 Q. Yes, I have heard that, Mr. Vukalo. You said so in
1 connection with your service in the army of which you
2 served the whole term, in fact. What I want to know is,
3 did you respond to this call for entering the Reserve
4 Corps in February in Mostar and then stay there perhaps
5 for a couple of days, for the same reasons as you
6 adduced here returned home; is that correct?
7 A. No.
8 Q. Mr. Vukalo, you have stated before this Tribunal that you
9 did not have a rifle, that you were not armed, is that
11 A. No, I did not have a rifle of my own, no, I did not have
12 a rifle.
13 Q. Is it nevertheless true, Mr. Vukalo, that you were issued
14 a machine gun?
15 A. Perhaps someone who did that also wrote that, but I am
16 not aware of any such fact myself. How these were
17 issued, I am not aware that they were issued at all.
18 I do not know.
19 Q. Do you know, Mr. Vukalo, Amir Dzelilovic?
20 A. I do.
21 Q. He is from Kralupi?
22 A. Yes, he is from Kralupi.
23 Q. Is it true, Mr. Vukalo, that you and your relative handed
24 over, in Kralupi, machine guns to Amir Dzelilovic?
25 A. When I came to Kralupi, some 100 metres away from the
1 village, I was taking my mother, an old and sick woman,
2 and my brother and a group with women and children from
3 the hamlet, they were following us. We were not exactly
4 all in one single group. I did not have any kind of
5 weapon with me, on me.
6 Q. You have said, Mr. Vukalo, that prior to this hearing you
7 had been heard by the representative of the Prosecutor
8 of the International Tribunal; is that so?
9 A. I did not understand you exactly. Can you please
11 Q. In 1996, on 13th November, were you heard by a
12 representative of the Prosecutor's office of the
13 International Tribunal in The Hague?
14 A. In Belgrade, in the office of the Tribunal, of The Hague
15 Tribunal, I gave a statement, yes. I do not remember
16 the date. I expect it is written there.
17 Q. Is it true that you told the truth to the best of your
18 knowledge to that investigator?
19 A. I do not recall exactly what I said to him. You can ask
21 Q. Did you, at that time, Mr. Vukalo, sign a certificate
22 after the statement had been translated to you, in which
23 you said that you had given the statement of your own
24 volition, that you were aware that it could be used in a
25 procedure before this Tribunal, and that it was true and
1 faithful to your recollection; do you remember that?
2 A. I do not recall having said exactly that, but I did sign
4 Q. In order to refresh your memory in respect of what you
5 told the investigator, I will read the following text,
6 which is also contained in the statement:
7 "I decided to try to surrender to the friends of
8 my relative Vlado from Kralupi to Amir Dzelilovic,
9 because the soldiers were shooting at random. Vlado,
10 I went to seek him. Around 100 metres from Kralupi we
11 surrendered to Amir and we also gave up the two rifles
12 that we had kept to protect ourselves. In total, there
13 were 20 of us who surrendered, including my mother."
14 Did you say that to the investigator?
15 A. The very expression as regards the expression
16 "surrender", I have a problem with it. I was not
17 fleeing with anyone. I approached Kralupi together with
18 the women, children, the elderly, the sick, the infirm.
19 We were scared because of the shooting and we tried to
20 get away from it, in a way, and we approached our
21 neighbours and wanted to approach our neighbours in the
22 village of Kralupi to protect us, to give us shelter.
23 We were beside ourselves with fear, we were surprised.
24 Q. Kralupi?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. Is it true that you and Vlado handed over, surrendered
2 to Amir, his friend, two light machine guns?
3 A. I said that I was leading, taking my mother, old and
4 infirm and sick, with my brother and that there was this
5 staggered group of 20 of us, we were not all in a single
6 group, and I gave him no weapons. I had none. In fact,
7 I and my brother had to carry my mother.
8 Q. So if these words which I have just read to you are
9 written down as your words, then the investigator wrote
10 down something which you, in fact, did not say?
11 A. Maybe they did not understand, I do not know.
12 Q. Did you have occasion to hear a translation of
13 everything that you had said to them?
14 A. When I spoke, I was having a very hard time, I was very
15 embarrassed. At a certain point I really did not know
16 exactly what I was saying. It is a very unpleasant
17 memory for one to recall. I am trying to put it all
18 behind, to forget it all, if that is at all a feasible
19 proposition. I know that I had to stop every now and
20 then because I could not endure it, to keep remembering
21 those things.
22 Q. But you do confirm that there is a difference between
23 what I have read to you and that which you said in court
24 here today; is that true?
25 A. What I said here today and what you are reading, it may
1 be formulated the way you read it, but I repeat that
2 I had no weapons at all. Someone may have written that
3 down the way it is written, but I do not know. I know
4 that in Belgrade, in the office of the Tribunal of
5 The Hague, I was shaken. I stopped, I interrupted my
6 statement every now and then. I really had a hard time
7 giving it.
8 MS. RESIDOVIC: It would be time, your Honour, to adjourn
9 today, for me to finish my cross-examination for today.
10 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Thank you very much. We will continue
11 tomorrow at 10.00 the cross-examination of this
13 (5.30 pm)
14 (Court adjourned until 10.00 am the following day)