1 Friday, 15th August 1997
2 (10.00 am)
3 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Good morning, ladies and gentlemen.
4 I will have the appearances, please.
5 MR. NIEMANN: If your Honour pleases, my name is Niemann and
6 I appear with my colleagues Mr. Turone and
7 Ms. Van Dusschoten for the prosecution.
8 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: For the defence, please?
9 MS. RESIDOVIC: Good morning, your Honours, I am Edina
10 Residovic, defence counsel for Mr. Zejnil Delalic. With
11 me in the team is my colleague Eugene O'Sullivan,
12 professor from Canada.
13 MR. OLUJIC: Good morning, your Honours, I am Zeljko Olujic,
14 defence counsel for Mr. Zdravko Mucic. My co-counsel is
15 my colleague, Michael Greaves, attorney from the
16 United Kingdom.
17 MR. KARABDIC: Good morning, your Honours, I am Salih
18 Karabdic, attorney from Sarajevo, I am defending
19 Mr. Hazim Delic. With me is Mr. Thomas Moran, attorney
20 from Houston, Texas.
21 MR. ACKERMAN: Good morning, your Honours, I am John Ackerman
22 and along with my co-counsel Cynthia McMurray, we appear
23 on behalf of the defendant Mr. Esad Landzo.
24 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Thank you very much. Ms. Residovic ,
25 I think you were still continuing your
1 cross-examination. Kindly remind the witness he is
2 still under oath.
3 THE REGISTRAR: Mr. Vukalo, may I remind you you are still
4 under oath.
5 HRISTO VUKALO (continued)
6 Cross-examination by MS. RESIDOVIC (continued)
7 Q. May I proceed, your Honours?
8 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Yes, you may.
9 MS. RESIDOVIC: Thank you. Good morning, Mr. Vukalo.
10 A. Good morning.
11 Q. Have you had a rest after yesterday, which must have
12 been a tiring day for you?
13 A. I have rested and it was not tiring.
14 Q. We will resume where we stopped yesterday. We were
15 discussing the defence in your village and your
16 participation in that defence, and the statements that
17 you made before coming here to testify in the district
18 court in Belgrade and to the investigator of the
19 prosecution from The Hague. For us to be able to have
20 an easier time, and to make it clear to you that I do
21 not have any intention of confusing you, I would like to
22 refresh your memory with a copy of this statement that
23 you made in Belgrade, and the statement that you made to
24 the investigator of the International Tribunal, so that
25 when I ask you something about these statements, you can
1 yourself find the place that I am referring to, so
2 I would like to ask the usher for his assistance to give
3 the witness copies of these statements. (Handed).
4 THE REGISTRAR: The statements have been marked D60/1 A, B
5 and C.
6 MS. RESIDOVIC: Mr. Vukalo, will you look at the statement
7 written in Cyrillic script. It says "Minutes on the
8 Hearing of a Witness"; do you see your signature on
9 every page of this statement in Cyrillic?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. So that is the statement that you made to the
12 investigating judge of the district court in Belgrade
13 that we were referring to yesterday?
14 A. Yes, I did, but whether everything is quite correct I am
15 not sure.
16 Q. Will you please look at this statement in English now,
17 another statement? Is that the statement that you
18 signed each page of in Latin script?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. And that is the statement you made to the investigator
21 of the OTP; is that not so?
22 A. Probably; it must be.
23 Q. In addition to that statement, you also have a
24 translation into the Serbian language of the same
25 statement. The date is 13th November 1996.
1 A. Yes, that is what it says.
2 Q. To be even more precise about this statement, will you
3 please turn to the last page of the Serbian text, where
4 it says "Witness Acknowledgment"? That same certificate
5 is to be found on the last page of the English text,
6 where your signature is, is it not?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Does it say there that:
9 "This statement has been read over to me in the
10 Serbian language and is true to the best of my
11 recollection. I have given this statement voluntarily
12 and I am aware that it may be used in legal proceedings
13 before the International Criminal Tribunal for the
14 prosecution of persons responsible for serious
15 violations of international law committed in the
16 territory of the Former Yugoslavia since 1991, and that
17 I may be called to give evidence in public before the
19 Is that what it says?
20 A. Yes, it is.
21 Q. Thank you. I will now continue with the questions where
22 we left off yesterday.
23 Will you please turn to page 2 of the statement
24 you made to the investigating judge in Belgrade and to
25 see whether in paragraph 2 of that statement it says:
1 "In order to protect ourselves and our lives, the
2 lives of the members of our families and our property,
3 we organised ourselves for defence with the little
4 weapons we had. We kept guard duty so as not to be
5 attacked by surprise."
6 I have just read a part of the text to be found
7 there. Will you tell me please: yesterday you stated in
8 court that the inhabitants of your village did not
9 organise defence, that you did not have any guard duty.
10 Are these two different statements, Mr. Vukalo?
11 A. What I said yesterday was that we did not have any
12 weapons and we did not have any in the hamlet I was
13 living in. As for this statement that I made, madam,
14 when you recall something very unpleasant, I know I was
15 crying, I had a very hard time. It was the first time
16 I was being questioned after I had left the camp, so it
17 was formulated more by the others. I was speaking in a
18 disconnected manner, so this is not word by word what
19 I said.
20 Q. Mr. Vukalo, I will try to put to you very simple
21 questions. Will you please look at the first page of
22 the statement that you made to the investigator of
23 the Hague Tribunal, the first one after the cover page,
24 third paragraph, third sentence:
25 "I believe there were some weapons in Donje Selo,
1 but very little in my village. In Bjelovcina there were
2 not more than 20 people under arms. Very little was
3 done in preparation for defence because we had hoped
4 that the JNA would protect us."
5 Yesterday in court you said that there was no
6 defence in the village of Bjelovcina, so my question is
7 very simple. Will you please answer it for me? Is
8 there a difference between what is said here in the
9 statement that you made to the investigator of the
10 Tribunal from what you stated here in court?
11 A. Regarding the hamlet that I was living in, there was no
12 defence, and it is impossible for the village to have
13 had any proper defence because it is surrounded by
14 seven, eight Muslim villages.
15 Q. My question is very simple: can you see that what is
16 contained in this statement made to the investigator of
17 the International Tribunal in Belgrade and what you said
18 here in the court are two different things? Is it
19 different or not, that is the very simple question I am
20 putting to you. Does what you said before differ from
21 what you said here in court?
22 A. I think there was some hunting weapons in the village of
23 Bjelovcina. Anyway, I do not know. If there was any,
24 I have no idea how much there was. I know that there
25 were not many able-bodied men in the village of
1 Bjelovcina, because the younger men were leaving. It
2 was a village that had no asphalt road, people went away
3 to work --
4 Q. I apologise for interrupting you, but let me remind you:
5 in answer to a question from the prosecution here in
6 court as to whether there was any kind of organised
7 defence at the time, you answered as follows:
8 "I cannot talk about the organisation of defence.
9 There were only 50 or 60 able-bodied men there."
10 Then my colleague continued with the following
12 "Did you participate in the defence of the
14 Answer: On the part of the inhabitants of the
15 village of Bjelovcina, I never heard then or later that
16 they had put up any kind of resistance."
17 So my question is: what you said as I have read
18 out and what is written in the previous statement, do
19 the two differ?
20 A. As far as I know, there was no resistance from the
21 village of Bjelovcina, no resistance. Some hunting
22 weapons and personal pistols in private property, when
23 I came to Celebici camp, I heard that these rifles had
24 been given up, but I know there was no resistance and
25 I do not see that it is possible to put up resistance,
1 though I have really no idea about military strategy at
3 Q. Mr. Vukalo, will you please answer my question. Does
4 what you said before and what you said in court differ?
5 MR. NIEMANN: This could go on all day. Counsel keeps asking
6 the question, the witness gives an answer, counsel does
7 not like the answer, it is not the answer she wants, so
8 we go on and on and on again. The witness has given an
9 answer. If that is not satisfactory to counsel, that is
10 unfortunate; that is what often happens. This just
11 amounts to harassment if it continues on forever, and
12 I object to it.
13 MR. MORAN: Your Honour, she has asked the question "does it
14 differ", and that is pretty much a yes or no response.
15 Either it differs or it does not. She has asked the
16 question several times and has yet to receive one
18 MR. NIEMANN: I do not understand why Mr. Moran is objecting.
19 It is not his cross-examination. What is the basis of
20 Mr. Moran's objection, standing up at this moment? I am
21 sure that counsel can handle the situation herself.
22 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Thank you very much.
23 Ms Residovic, I think you know what questions you
24 have asked and what answers have been received to those
25 questions. There is a way of going to the same question
1 in a different way. The more you ask the same
2 questions, you are likely to get the same answers, but
3 you can find another way of getting a different answer
4 if you want that. There is no way you can compel the
5 person to give answers the way you want it, so perhaps
6 you frame it in a different way.
7 MS. RESIDOVIC: Thank you, your Honours. I thought that my
8 question was a simple one that could be answered with a
9 yes or a no, and that the witness would answer that
10 question. I shall try in line with your advice to put
11 the question again to the witness.
12 Mr. Vukalo, the text I have read from the statement
13 made to the prosecution truthfully reflects the
14 statement you made?
15 A. What I said in Belgrade?
16 Q. Did I read it correctly is my question.
17 A. You read what is written there.
18 Q. Have I correctly cited what you were asked by my learned
19 colleague, the Prosecutor, as well as your answer to
20 that question? Have I cited that correctly?
21 A. Madam, I am answering to the best of my knowledge as to
22 what I said in Belgrade.
23 Q. Will you please answer my question: did I correctly read
24 out the question and the answer made here in court?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. The two differ, do they not?
2 A. I said "as far as i know". I cannot say something I do
3 not know, but please let me, madam, finish my sentence.
4 I am saying that this questioning was the first one
5 since my release. I was crying, I was upset, and it is
6 something extremely unpleasant and painful, so I do not
7 know myself what I said, nor how it was formulated when
8 it was written down. I suffered a great deal.
9 Q. Thank you. Mr. Vukalo, would you please look again at
10 the statement. Just a moment please -- the statement
11 you made for the judge in Belgrade on page 2,
12 paragraph 3, the second sentence. I am going to read it
13 for you, so will you confirm that that is what it says
15 "We put up resistance and the fighting lasted
16 about one hour, but as they were superior, they broke up
17 our defences so that we separated into groups and moved
18 around in the surrounding woods until they captured us
19 in the next day or two, together with the women and
21 Is that what it says in this statement?
22 A. Yes, that is what it says in this statement, but what it
23 says here is not what I said. It is not what I said at
24 all. How could there be any resistance when no one was
25 hurt or killed on the side of the Muslim and Croat army
1 that were attacking us? I learned that much later in
2 the Celebici camp, that not one of the attackers was
3 killed or wounded.
4 Q. Is it true that when my colleague the Prosecutor asked
5 you yesterday as follows:
6 "Did you see or know anyone who was defending the
7 village from the people who were attacking you?"
8 Was your answer, Mr. Vukalo:
9 "I did not hear a single shot coming from the
11 A. Yes, that is true; I did not hear a single shot.
12 Q. Then my colleague continued:
13 "Was anyone engaged in the defence of the village?
14 Answer: As concerns the inhabitants of the
15 village of Bjelovcina, I did not hear that any kind of
16 resistance was put up."
17 Is that what you said in court here?
18 A. It is.
19 Q. Is it true that there is a difference between the
20 sentence that I read out to you a moment ago and what
21 you said here in court?
22 A. What I said before this honourable court is what I said,
23 I myself, and what is written here are not my words.
24 That is maybe how it was understood and how it was
25 formulated, but it is not what I said. This sentence
1 that you read, there was no resistance, what kind of
2 resistance? We were fleeing with the children, the
3 women, the elderly; and the people who had hunting
4 rifles, I heard later in the camp, they had surrendered
6 Q. But, Mr. Vukalo, a defence that lasted one hour and no
7 defence at all are two different things.
8 A. As far as I know, there was no defence in my hamlet for
9 sure, and as I heard later on, there was no defence in
10 the village as a whole. Nobody fired any weapons, and
11 I certainly did not hear a single shot. That is as much
12 as I can say.
13 Q. Mr. Vukalo, can you please turn to page 3 of your
14 statement for the investigating judge in Belgrade?
15 I will read out from the third paragraph sentences to be
16 found somewhere in the middle of that paragraph, so will
17 you please try and find them:
18 "After some time, Amir Dzelilovic came there,
19 bringing with him Vlado Vukalo, who was carrying several
20 rifles, and those were our rifles which we had left
21 behind, and then they forced Vlado to go and collect
22 them and he brought them over."
23 Have I cited correctly the text to be found in
24 that statement?
25 A. You have read it as it is written.
1 Q. Mr. Vukalo, will you please now look at the end of page 1
2 of the statement that you made for the investigator of
3 the Hague Tribunal, the translation into Serbian? The
4 last sentence on that first page reads, going over to
5 the next page, as follows. I will read it out so please
6 confirm it for me:
7 "I decided to try and surrender to the friends of
8 my relative Vlado from Kralupi, Dzelilovic Amir, because
9 the soldiers were shooting at random. Vlado went to
10 look for him. About 100 metres from Kralupi, we
11 surrendered to Amir, and we gave up two rifles which we
12 had kept to protect ourselves. All in all, there were
13 20 of us who surrendered, including my mother, an old
14 woman who could hardly walk, and some infants."
15 Is that the text to be found in the statement you
16 made to the investigator of the prosecution?
17 A. What you read is written here, but I saw Vlado in Bozo
18 Tomic's cellar, as I said yesterday. I do not know
19 where he was going. That I do not know, but when I was
20 taken there from Amir Dzelilovic's house, as I said
21 yesterday, they took me there and in front of Gulas's
22 house I was beaten up, and then they took me to Bozo
23 Tomic's house, and I saw Vlado in the cellar of that
24 house for the first time.
25 Q. What I have read is to be found in the statement that
1 you made to the investigator of the prosecution of the
2 International Tribunal, MacLeod, Alistair, on
3 13th November 1996; is that correct? Yesterday, in
4 answer to a question from my learned colleague the
5 Prosecutor, you said -- the question was as follows:
6 "When you went into the woods, did you take any
7 weapons with you?"
8 You answered: no.
9 A. I did not take any weapons because I did not have any.
10 Q. In answer to the next question of my learned colleague,
11 whether at the time of the attack you had any weapons in
12 your house, you answered:
13 "No, I did not."
14 Is what you said to the Tribunal in Belgrade and
15 to the investigator of the Hague Tribunal and what you
16 have said to the Trial Chamber yesterday -- are they
17 different statements? Do they look different? You have
18 given your explanation. I am asking simply: is this
20 A. When I was making the statement to the Hague Tribunal
21 representative in Belgrade, I interrupted my statement
22 on several occasions and Mr. MacLeod can remember that
23 and he can confirm that, because I was crying. I was
24 sobbing and I do not know how I was speaking, but what
25 I said here yesterday was exactly the way it was, and
1 I cannot say things I do not know, nor would I like to
2 say anything I do not know. I can only tell you what
3 I do know.
4 Q. Mr. Vukalo, you are now saying that, because you were
5 interrupted, because you were excited and distressed,
6 that Mr. Alistair MacLeod was writing things which you
7 did not actually say?
8 A. There was also an interpreter here. How could he
9 understand everything? I do not know how he understood
10 me, how he translated as I was sobbing, but what it says
11 in the paper I do not agree with.
12 Q. Mr. Vukalo, do you remember that yesterday, asked by my
13 learned colleague the Prosecutor, when he asked you
14 whether you were engaged or involved in any kind of
15 military activity at the time prior to the military
16 activities in 1992, at the very beginning of 1992, you
17 answered "no".
18 A. Yes, I answered no, which is true.
19 Q. Look at your statement to the investigating judge of the
20 district court in Belgrade, page 2, where it says as
21 follows, in the middle of the first sentence, and I only
22 read that part of the sentence:
23 "We organised ourselves for defence with some few
24 weapons that we had. We had vigilante groups and
25 guarded objects not to be attacked suddenly and
2 A. That is what it says, but in my hamlet, there was no
3 organised defence. Whether there were vigilante groups
4 that was in the village, that was a kilometre from my
5 hamlet, five more hamlets from our house and I do not
6 know what happened there.
7 Q. Now I would like to ask you, Mr. Vukalo, to look at the
8 first page of your statement to the investigator of the
9 International Tribunal. Look at the third paragraph .
10 It begins like this:
11 "A couple of days before the fighting began in the
12 village, I received a rifle to defend my home.
13 I received this from Dusko Bendzo, but I do not know
14 where he received this from. I believe there were some
15 weapons in Donje Selo and in my village very few. In
16 Bjelovcina, there were not more than 20 armed people."
17 Is that what your statement says, Mr. Vukalo?
18 A. That is what the statement says on paper, yes. You read
19 it correctly.
20 Q. Did you, when asked by my learned colleague the
21 Prosecutor -- did you not say clearly to this Tribunal
22 that you had no rifle?
23 A. And I did not have it.
24 Q. That you did not take it with you to the woods, that you
25 did not have it in your home --
1 A. Of course I did not. How could I have had it? How
2 could I have taken it with me if I did not have it?
3 Q. These answers that you gave to the Tribunal yesterday,
4 are they not different from the words that I read from
5 the statement that you gave to the investigator of the
6 International Tribunal?
7 A. Madam, I learned when I was in the camp, Celebici camp
8 -- I learned that people who had their hunting guns or
9 pistols and so on, whatever people had, some people may
10 have bought the weapons, but these weapons were in the
11 village, but in my hamlet, I never saw a single gun, a
12 single rifle. These were weapons that five people were
13 the collective owners of a single rifle, but in my
14 hamlet, we did not have anything and I cannot tell you
15 anything. What I am saying now I only heard in the
16 Celebici camp when I arrived there.
17 Q. Thank you, Mr. Vukalo. We will not need the statements
18 any more. I will ask you something else directly.
19 Did you, Mr. Vukalo, have a heavy machine-gun of
20 army issue?
21 A. No, I did not.
22 Q. As a member of the SDS party, in early April 1992, were
23 you not informed by your acquaintances Miro Djurdjic and
24 Spaso Babic that the SDS party had a task for you?
25 A. I told you yesterday how I became a member. Be patient
1 with me and I will repeat that. I became a member
2 because an elderly man from my village with many
3 children, Djorde Bendzo -- he is 50 years old or more,
4 alcoholic -- he went to the SDS offices, headquarters in
5 the town, and he brought with him a heap of membership
6 cards. He took some money for that and he spent it on
7 alcohol. Actually, I was not a member of the SDS, only
9 Q. Mr. Vukalo, we heard your explanation that you gave to
10 this tribunal, how you became a member, and everything
11 you said is in the transcript and in the protocol, but
12 now, to facilitate matters for us and for the court,
13 please answer my question. Were you informed by Miro
14 Djurdjic and Spaso Babic in early April 1992 that the
15 SDS party has a task for you, an assignment?
16 A. I cannot remember that.
17 Q. Did you after that, Mr. Vukalo, together with Dusko
18 Bendzo, Dragan Sinic and Spaso Babic -- did you go with
19 two cars, Skoda and Lada -- did you go to Dzelusa from
20 where you took a Yugoslav army lorry and you brought the
21 lorry full of weapons, rifles, M48, and two heavy
23 A. I have never been to the village that you mentioned.
24 I went to Konjic, I went to Sarajevo before the war, but
25 to these villages down by the Neretva that you mentioned
1 now, I never went. I have never been in that village in
2 my life nor have I heard the name of that village.
3 Q. Is it true, Mr. Vukalo, that after that, together with
4 Dusko Bendzo and Dusan Tomic, you went to Borci and from
5 the Yugoslav People's Army took over three heavy machine
6 guns and two automatic rifles?
7 A. No, not all.
8 Q. Mr. Vukalo, at the moment when you were arrested, you
9 said you also recognised some neighbours in HVO
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Is it true that in the house of Jozic, called Aga, there
13 was a command post for some of these units?
14 A. Yes, there were quite a number of soldiers there and
15 from there they called for vans to come and collect us.
16 I understood this was some kind of command post, I do
17 not know what level. There were quite a number of
18 soldiers who entered, who left.
19 Q. After spending the night in the motel, you were then
20 taken to the Celebici camp?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. In Celebici, according to your statements so far, you
23 actually found some 7 to 12 young men from Brdjani?
24 A. I actually found there are some 7, I do not know the
25 exact number, but there were not more than ten people
1 from Brdjani and from my village. I can repeat if
2 necessary. I can repeat Scepo Vukalo, Veljko Babic,
3 Ranko Dordic.
4 Q. Thank you. The people from Brjdani told you they had
5 been there for some 10 to 15 days already?
6 A. Yes, roughly. I do not remember exactly, but that is
7 what they said, roughly.
8 Q. So, Mr. Vukalo, if on the 23rd you arrived in Celebici,
9 would you then agree with me if I then say that these
10 people must have been brought into the camp between
11 5th and 10th May?
12 A. Madam, I arrived in Celebici on the 22nd, some time in
13 the afternoon; I do not remember the exact hour. When
14 they were brought to Celebici, I cannot tell you, but
15 I know that they said, "We have been here for some 10 to
16 15 days", but we did not speak much about that. We were
17 too frightened and we did not spend much time talking
18 about it.
19 Q. Yes, Mr. Vukalo, I am just doing the mathematics.
20 Anybody can do the mathematics. If you arrive on the
21 22nd, 10 to 15 days earlier would be between 5th and
22 10th May. That would roughly be the dates?
23 A. I did not do any mathematics; I only knew what they told
25 Q. Mr. Vukalo, you are a witness who is saying that they
1 were imprisoned there and that they had been in prison
2 from the day they were brought there.
3 A. I do not know whether they were there in the same place
4 all the time. I found them there when I arrived and
5 they were there.
6 Q. Thank you. You also said, Mr. Vukalo, and I would like
7 to just clarify this matter for myself -- you said that
8 at first you were guarded by the military police of the
9 HVO with white belts, and that included both Muslims and
10 Croats; is that true?
11 A. I do not know whether it was the HVO, but the guards who
12 were there when I arrived to room 22, they did wear
13 white belts. Then I learned from other inmates -- Davor
14 Bendzo knew Dzajic and he knew he was a Muslim. I also
15 knew Mirsad Subasic, who actually was the first one to
16 interrogate me and I knew he was a Muslim, but for the
17 rest, they might have been Croats, they might have been
18 Muslims; I do not know what they were.
19 Q. Thank you. So the statement that you made in Celebici
20 was the statement you made to Mirsad Subasic?
21 A. Yes, I made two or three statements to Mr. Subasic.
22 Q. This was at the very beginning of your arrival, soon
23 after your arrival?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Mirsad Subasic was a member of the interior MUP of
2 A. I know he actually completed studies of national defence
3 or whatever. What he did and whether he worked for the
4 police or in MUP I do not know.
5 Q. You also stated that Miroslav Stenek was another of the
6 men who -- he investigated you, plus another Croat who
7 you think was the judge, presiding judge in Konjic.
8 A. Stenek interrogated us, the Croat whose name I cannot
9 remember now. I used to know it but I cannot remember
10 it now. I heard from the other inmates that he was
11 something in the court in Konjic, the presiding judge or
12 he did something in the court of law in Konjic.
13 Q. I might try to remind you: is that the man -- is that
14 perhaps Goran Lokas, the man who was the presiding judge
15 of the court in Konjic?
16 A. Yes, Lokas, exactly. That is the name.
17 Q. You said these interrogators were actually treating you
18 very fairly without abuse?
19 A. I was first interrogated by Miro Stenek and by Lokas.
20 During the interrogation, their conduct was fair, they
21 did not hit us. Everybody else was hitting us but they
22 were not hitting us. I would say they were fair and
23 correct and as soon as they were not beating, I was
25 Q. Mr. Vukalo, you also said that at one point, Mr. Subasic
1 left that commission and that Miro Stenek and some other
2 people continued to work as a commission for about a
3 month to come, investigating you and the other inmates?
4 A. The first to investigate was Subasic from Idbar. After
5 that, he disappeared, he was not there, he did not
6 investigate us any more. Then came Mr. Miro Stenek after
7 a while and the other person you mentioned, the Croat
8 who was the presiding judge, Lokas; they continued the
9 interrogation. For how long I do not know, but I would
10 say that it did last for about 15 days up to a month,
11 but I cannot tell you exactly.
12 Q. If I might suggest that this was until the end of June
13 perhaps, because until the end of June or early July the
14 commission was investigating and interrogating the
15 inmates; do you remember that?
16 A. It is possible, but I cannot confirm it with any degree
17 of certainty, but it is very possible.
18 Q. What you said to the interrogators was written down in a
19 statement, was it not?
20 A. Yes, it was, but let me first say that I was hit, I was
21 beaten, that I was totally scared, and I was beaten and
22 beaten more, and this arm that had been injured in the
23 motel and up there in the house of Bozo Tomic, it hurt
24 horribly. I was terrified. I was practically beside
25 myself, I did not have my wits about me.
1 Q. And you signed that statement which you made before the
3 A. I had to sign it, I normally had to sign it.
4 Q. Just a slight digression, Mr. Vukalo. We noticed when we
5 inspected your statement in Belgrade that you signed it
6 in the Cyrillic script; is that not a fact?
7 A. As far as I am concerned, madam, the Cyrillic script and
8 the Latin script which I both learned at school are both
9 the same.
10 Q. Please, I know that, but you signed that statement in
11 the Cyrillic script?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. The statement before the investigator of the
14 International Tribunal you signed in the Latin script?
15 A. Yes, in fact now I see that I did.
16 Q. Please, my question is: to us in Bosnia-Herzegovina it
17 was totally the same whether we wrote in Latin or
18 Cyrillic script; is that not a fact?
19 A. Yes, I learned both scripts, the Cyrillic and the Latin
20 and I could use both.
21 Q. Yes, of course. So it is correct that for all of us,
22 the inhabitants of Bosnia-Herzegovina, both scripts were
23 equal and we all knew them and we used them; is that not
25 A. As far as I know, I believe that all of these -- both
1 scripts were taught in the whole of Yugoslavia; whether
2 that is true you can also say.
3 Q. Okay, very well, but we are now speaking -- referring to
4 this nearer area where we lived. Very well, thank you.
5 Mr. Vukalo, you said that somewhere towards the end
6 of 1992, you were transferred from Celebici to Musala,
7 did you not?
8 A. On 9th December 1992 I was transferred to Musala, yes.
9 Q. In some time around January 1993, in the MUP of Konjic,
10 you again made a statement, did you not?
11 A. I gave so many statements at all sorts of places that
12 I really cannot recall them all or the places where
13 I gave them. I probably did.
14 Q. There in MUP, as you were making the statement, you were
15 not maltreated by anybody?
16 A. No, I was not. Not in the MUP. I was not maltreated
17 while making that statement.
18 Q. And you signed that statement as well?
19 A. Madam, I had to sign the statement lest I be again
20 treated with the same treatment, beating and so on, as
21 I have already described. I was afraid; my life was
22 threatened in my view.
23 Q. I will ask that the witness be shown this statement of
24 January 15th 1993 to see whether it is indeed his
25 signature. At the same time, I shall have a copy
1 submitted also to the Prosecutor and the judges?
2 MR. NIEMANN: Your Honours, may I raise a matter at this
3 time? Your Honours, the statement that I anticipate is
4 going to be shown to the witness is a statement that was
5 taken by the people, the very people that were holding
6 him captive. He has already said in his evidence that
7 he had to sign anything that was put in front of him, so
8 terrified was he of the circumstances in which he found
9 himself. Your Honours, under Rule 95 of the Rules of
10 the Tribunal, it is provided for that no evidence shall
11 be admissible if obtained by methods which cast
12 substantial doubt on its reliability, or if its
13 admission is anti-ethical or would seriously damage the
14 integrity of the proceedings.
15 In my submission, your Honour, this very document
16 falls exactly into that category, and, in my submission,
17 for the Tribunal to entertain any cross-examination in
18 relation to this document, it would have to be done in
19 such a way, in my submission, as to be consistent with
20 Rule 91, to be so categorised as a document that was
21 obtained in circumstances where the witness could not
22 freely and voluntarily provide the information that is
23 contained therein. He has also mentioned the fact that
24 at that stage, he signed practically anything -- he said
25 he would have to sign anything that was put in front of
1 him at that stage.
2 Your Honours, I am not objecting to a form of
3 cross-examination, provided there is no suggestion at
4 any stage that what is contained in the statement is in
5 any way true or correct. If it is not asserted by the
6 cross-examination that the contents of the statement are
7 true and correct, then I do not have any objection to
8 it, but if it is sought to challenge the credibility of
9 this witness through this document, then, having regard
10 to the circumstances under which it was obtained, I say
11 it offends Rule 95 and I object to it.
12 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Ms Residovic, have you any reply to
13 that objection?
14 MS. RESIDOVIC: Yes, your Honours. It was in a similar way
15 that we conducted discussion before this Trial Chamber,
16 but I believe that now the court has in front of it
17 proof, evidence which are contrary to what my
18 distinguished colleague has just stated, namely we have
19 interviewed a member of the Commission as a witness of
20 the prosecution, and the prosecution side gave those
21 persons very high grade in terms of their professional
22 attitude and correct attitude in the way they were
23 taking those statements.
24 On the other hand, this witness, in answering the
25 prosecution's questions, clearly said that while he was
1 being held in the Musala prison, he made a statement --
2 first of all that he had not been maltreated there at
3 all; secondly that this statement in MUP, Konjic -- when
4 answering my question, he said that he did make it, that
5 everybody treated him correctly, that he had signed that
7 What the significance of the content of that
8 statement will be is something for the court to assess,
9 but these are all circumstances which warrant the
10 defence's presentation of this particular statement
11 given in Konjic to the witness to recognise his
12 signature, and that this statement should actually be
13 used for the purposes of defence, which is to say in
14 connection with the credibility of this witness.
15 I have established the basis for this particular
16 use of this statement, because we presented to the
17 witness these statements that he gave in Belgrade, that
18 he gave to the investigator of this Tribunal. I believe
19 all this will be quite sufficient for this Tribunal to
20 assess the credibility of this witness. Therefore
21 I move that these statements be given to the witness so
22 that he could recognise his signature and that they be
23 used for the purposes as evidence of the defence for the
24 purposes proposed by the defence in this procedure.
25 Normally, the defence will, in the stage of
1 presenting its own evidence, bring in other evidence to
2 corroborate these circumstances. It will be up to the
3 Tribunal to assign various degrees of credibility to
4 each such piece of evidence.
5 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Actually, my understanding of the
6 approach you have adopted is that you are impeaching the
7 credit of the witness by using two statements which he
8 has earlier made, the statement to the prosecution and
9 the statement which he made when he was in detention.
10 These are the things you are using in impeaching his
11 credit. What Mr. Niemann is objecting to is the validity
12 of using the statement made by a witness under
13 incarceration as inconsistent with Rule 95. I agree you
14 have argued that the prosecution has called as its
15 witness one of the members of the committee which had
16 taken such statements, but, notwithstanding that,
17 whether such statements are within the general penumbra
18 of Rule 95 is what Mr. Niemann is arguing about. But you
19 did appear to have responded to that aspect of it.
20 JUDGE JAN: Mr. Niemann, is it a rule that any statement made
21 by a detainee is treated to be as one obtained under
22 caution? Is it a rule that every statement has to be
23 taken in the light of the background in which it is
25 MR. NIEMANN: No, your Honours. Clearly a statement can be
1 taken from a witness in detention. The issue of
2 voluntariness becomes very important.
3 JUDGE JAN: That is my question. Supposing the defence
4 leaks evidence at some stage showing they were
5 voluntarily made then, it will have a handicap that this
6 statement was never shown to the witness.
7 MR. NIEMANN: Your Honours, I would suggest that from what
8 the witness has already said --
9 JUDGE JAN: Let us mark it for identification purposes. If
10 the defence can lead evidence to show it was obtained
11 voluntarily, then of course we can look at it; otherwise
12 we will just exclude it from evidence. At this stage,
13 maybe show it for the purpose of identification. Does
14 it bear your signature? That is all.
15 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Let us hear him reply completely to the
16 circumstances in which the statement was made.
17 MR. NIEMANN: Your Honours have heard extensive evidence
18 about the conditions -- does your Honour want me to
19 address this issue or just put the statement to the
20 witness? I am sorry, I misunderstood what your Honour
21 was saying.
22 JUDGE JAN: There is no rule that any statement made under
23 detention has to be excluded.
24 MR. NIEMANN: I am not suggesting that, your Honour.
25 JUDGE JAN: At this stage, show it for purposes of
1 identification; does it bear your signature or not? It
2 is for the defence to show whether this statement was
3 made voluntarily. At this stage if the defence is
4 denied that opportunity, later on if it has found some
5 statements were made voluntarily, then your objection
6 will be: the witness was never shown this statement.
7 MR. NIEMANN: I have no objection to that, your Honours.
8 There was only one other matter I wanted to correct. It
9 is not strictly speaking correct to say that the witness
10 was not mistreated in the Musala camp.
11 JUDGE JAN: The statements probably would be viewed with
12 some suspicion, but the defence can remove that
13 suspicion if it is possible for them to lead evidence to
14 that effect.
15 MR. NIEMANN: So long as they attempt to do that and are
16 successful in doing that, then I will have no
17 objection. Certainly I submit that they should go at
18 least through the process of establishing voluntariness
19 before they do so. I might just add, your Honours, that
20 mere signature, of course, as your Honours know, is not
21 sufficient to establish voluntariness.
22 MS. RESIDOVIC: I should like to ask the witness to
23 identify his signature, that this statement be taken for
24 purposes of identification, I do not wish to repeat that
25 the Prosecutor asks every witness whether any
1 proceedings had been instituted against him when such
2 proof is offered and we have objections of this kind, so
3 I should like to ask now that the witness recognise his
4 signature and the defence will tender this as evidence
5 after having also manifested other --
6 A. I just have to say something. I gave the statement in
7 MUP Konjic several times. I do not know whether you are
8 referring to that statement. Two days before giving
9 that statement, I was subjected to a mock execution.
10 I can describe how it was: we went to the hill at Prenj
11 to dig trenches, and the soldiers up there on those
12 positions -- I believe their names are there, the name
13 of their Muslim formation was the Muderizi -- they were
14 there on this hill at Prenj and as I was digging the
15 trench, please let me describe this, this soldier came
16 up to me and he asked me as I was digging what my name
17 was. I normally stood to attention, I had to. I told
18 him what my name was, then three or four more of them
19 came. Everything I am saying can be confirmed by Tomic
20 Bozo, by Dordic Zdravko, also camp inmates, the latter
21 one being from the village of Bradina. Let me please
22 finish --
23 MS. RESIDOVIC: This is not my question. If your Honours
24 wish to hear this witness --
25 A. Please let me finish before you show me the statement.
1 One of those soldiers told me to face him, turn around
2 and face him. He raised his rifle, he repeated, I think
3 it was a PAP, it was an automatic rifle, I am not sure.
4 Normally I was extremely scared. He shot from the
5 rifle, of course I was terrified. They started
6 laughing. One of the soldiers said: "That was a
7 manoeuvring bullet in the rifle." I, of course, was not
8 aware of that, I thought my end had come, and I was
9 subjected to this mock execution several times. I did
10 not know that it would be a mock execution. This
11 particular incident took place two days prior to my
12 making the statement in the SUP of Konjic. I gave many
13 statements in the SUP of Konjic, I do not know whether
14 you are referring to that particular one.
15 Q. I should like to show you this statement.
16 A. I was afraid I would be subjected to the same kind of
17 treatment as the one I was given in Celebici which
18 I really took very hard because I would be beaten three
19 times per day.
20 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honour, the witness has now been going on
21 for three or four minutes without one question being
22 asked. He has just decided to start making statements
23 to the court. Part of that is because we have -- when
24 there is a legal objection and the lawyers talk about
25 that legal objection, we do it in a way that the witness
1 can hear what we are saying and then the witness feels
2 like he somehow has to engage himself in the legal
3 issues that we are talking about. That is what he is
4 doing now. He has decided to launch off in giving
5 information that nobody asked him about; nobody asked
6 him a question that caused him to give us all this
7 information just now. If he has been asked a proper
8 question, fine, let him answer it properly, but the
9 court must control the situation of witnesses just
10 popping off without a question being asked. That is not
12 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: I do not think counsel has a better
13 advantage to assisting the court than the witness. No
14 counsel has that.
15 MS. RESIDOVIC: Have you taken a look; did you see your
16 signature? Is that your signature, Mr. Vukalo?
17 A. It seems so. It seems that this is what I sign.
18 Q. Is this a signature identical to the one which you
19 affixed to the statement that you made to the
20 investigators of the International Tribunal?
21 A. I had to.
22 Q. I am only asking: is this your signature?
23 A. If they had told me that it was night and it was day
24 I would have had to say it was.
25 Q. I am not talking about the content, I am talking about
1 the signature. You have recognised your signature?
2 A. Yes, but I have to stress the circumstances under which
3 I signed that.
4 MS. RESIDOVIC: I believe that the witness has identified
5 his signature, and at this moment I move that this
6 particular statement only be accepted as a statement
7 which has been identified, and at this moment I propose
8 it as defence exhibit --
9 JUDGE JAN: Just that it is signed, because he disowns the
10 contents altogether.
11 MS. RESIDOVIC: Thank you.
12 Thank you, Mr. Vukalo. Just a couple of brief
13 questions. You know Ivica Buric?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. You saw Ivica Buric in Celebici, did you not?
16 A. Ivica Buric is one of the first Croats in the village of
17 Pokojiste to put on a camouflage uniform. I saw him in
18 Pokojiste when I was in Branko Jozic's house when I was
19 actually taken to that house and had to lie against the
21 Q. You also saw him in Celebici?
22 A. I did not say that I saw him in Celebici.
23 Q. Is it true that Ivica Buric, on one occasion, filmed you
24 in Celebici?
25 A. The one in Celebici, in camp. I thought you were
1 referring to Ivica Buric from the village of Pokojiste.
2 No, that is Ivica Kozora. I got mixed up. I know Ivica
3 Buric from the camp, yes, when I was in number 6. I do,
4 I remember him well. I will never forget when he
5 brought this camera. When I was beaten like I have
6 never been beaten in my life before and he filmed that.
7 Q. Then you were given to read something, were you not, and
8 you would not and then Ivica Buric and Dedic beat you up
9 so viciously that you will never forget it?
10 A. It was not Ivica Buric that beat me up, it was Zenga and
11 Osmo Dedic that beat me up. Ivica Buric was filming
12 this. I was totally naked and they hit me with a
13 soldier's belt; Zenga and Dedic Osmo did. I was all
14 black and blue from my heels up to the top of my head.
15 That is the way I went back -- that is the state in
16 which I went back to number 6.
17 MS. RESIDOVIC: Very well, Mr. Vukalo. I have no further
18 questions for you. Thank you.
19 Thank you, your Honours. I have completed my
21 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Thank you very much. Any other
23 MR. OLUJIC: Yes, your Honours.
24 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Before you start, let me give this
25 caution. Mr. Ackerman has just finished his comment on
1 the supervision of the Trial Chamber by asking the Trial
2 Chamber to tell a witness to stop saying certain
3 things. As far as this Trial Chamber is concerned, when
4 a witness is making a statement and saying things which
5 are relevant to questions asked to him, or are related
6 to them, I think this witness's statement is entitled to
7 as much respect as to what counsel might be able to
8 offer. I do not think it is the place of counsel to
9 tell the Trial Chamber what to accept, except in a more
10 formal situation where objection is raised as to that
11 part of the statement. I do not think counsel is
12 entitled to a better advantage, as I said before, in
13 assisting the Trial Chamber than as any other witness
14 who is entitled to assist the Trial Chamber in getting
15 to the justice of the matter we have before us. So you
16 can continue.
17 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honour, let me just say, I think perhaps
18 I was misunderstood. My complaint and my objection was
19 this: that when counsel are engaged in arguing a legal
20 point, I think it is inappropriate for the witness to
21 participate in that argument by offering his own
22 opinions by factual information or otherwise as to how
23 the outcome of that legal issue should be involved. As
24 far as what this Chamber does with regard to the witness
25 answering questions, that is absolutely this Chamber's
1 prerogative. I am just objecting that witnesses should
2 not be permitted to engage in the legal arguments that
3 are going on between counsel and should remain silent
4 until that is completed and another question is put to
5 him. That was the force of what I was trying to
6 suggest. I apparently did it inartfully and
7 I apologise.
8 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: I have told you exactly what the
9 position should be. I do not think anyone in this Trial
10 Chamber understood what the witness was saying as
11 relevant to what was going on.
12 Now Mr. Olujic, you may proceed with your
14 Cross-examined by MR. OLUJIC
15 Q. Thank you, your Honours.
16 Good morning, Mr. Vukalo.
17 A. Good morning.
18 Q. Before we start with my cross-examination, will you
19 please bear in mind the warnings given yesterday
20 regarding the technical aspect of the proceedings and
21 that is that you should wait for my question to be
22 interpreted, and only when you hear the English
23 interpretation you should answer, so that everyone can
24 follow our conversation without us engaging in a
25 dialogue. Have you understood me?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Thank you. Mr. Vukalo, in the course of your direct
3 examination, you said that you knew Mr. Pavo Mucic or
4 Zdravko Mucic, and that he would be away up to as many
5 as ten days from the camp; is that correct?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Tell me, please, did Mr. Mucic beat you ever?
8 A. No.
9 Q. Was Mr. Mucic ever present when you were beaten?
10 A. I never saw him, but I said that as the commander of the
11 camp he should have known what was happening.
12 Q. Please, I have noticed that in your wish to assist the
13 court -- you are a witness here and I understand you.
14 I also have understanding because of the terrible
15 experiences you have gone through, but I appeal to you
16 in the interest of efficiency that when I ask you
17 questions, will you please answer them, only those
18 questions that I put to you.
19 A. Very well.
20 Q. If you act that way, you will make it easier for both of
21 us to get through this quickly. Thank you, Mr. Vukalo.
22 Mr. Vukalo, you said that Mr. Mucic wore a uniform?
23 A. Yes, he would come in uniform as well.
24 Q. Did you see any sign of rank on those uniforms?
25 A. I do not remember.
1 Q. Does that mean that there were none?
2 A. I cannot claim that there were any, nor that there were
3 none; I just do not remember.
4 Q. Was Mr. Mucic an officer?
5 A. As far as I know, he held the position of camp
7 Q. I am asking you whether he was an officer; you know what
8 an officer is. When you went to the JNA, you know what
9 officers are?
10 A. I do not know.
11 Q. When you say that he wore a uniform, the uniform of
12 which army?
13 A. A camouflage uniform, I do not remember any insignia.
14 He never had a cap on his head.
15 Q. Was it the kind of uniform that more or less all persons
16 were wearing who were involved in one way or another in
17 the operations on all three sides, simply a camouflage
19 A. He was wearing the same kind of uniform as the guards in
20 Celebici, or some of the guards, the same kind as the
21 guards, camouflage uniforms.
22 Q. Do you know Davor Bendzo?
23 A. Yes, I do.
24 Q. Was Davor Bendzo a friend of Mr. Mucic's?
25 A. I think he was; at least while I was in the camp he
1 would talk to him outside and inside.
2 Q. Would you be so kind as to tell me: you spent quite a
3 long time in the camp, until December 1992, I mean
4 Celebici camp. During that time, while you were
5 detained in the camp, was there any raising of the
6 flag every morning in the camp?
7 A. While I was in number 6, I could not see that anyway, so
8 I do not know. I do not know at all. I cannot say
9 anything about that.
10 Q. Thank you. Did you ever hear the anthem being played?
11 A. I cannot say anything about that either, I do not know.
12 Q. Did you ever see any formal lining up of troops within
13 the grounds?
14 A. Yes, when the oath was taken by the Muslim army.
15 I remember when Zenga and Dedic Osmo took my clothes off
16 and beat me with belts and Ivica Buric, whom I have just
17 mentioned, was filming me and on the wall to the right
18 where I was being beaten, there were I do not know how
19 many troops who were there to take their oath of
20 allegiance and they were applauding and laughing.
21 I know that this taking of the oath did take place
22 within the camp grounds because we could hear it. We
23 could hear it in hangar number 6.
24 Q. Was this in the part where the troops were or where you
25 were as prisoners?
1 A. At that point in time, I was in hangar number 6 and we
2 heard and later learnt that they were -- that the Muslim
3 army was taking an oath of allegiance and we could hear
4 the music too, but I did not see it actually taking
5 place. It must have been nearby somewhere, near the
7 Q. Tell me, of course, from your direct knowledge whether
8 you ever witnessed any quarrels among the guards?
9 A. The guards having disputes among themselves? I did not
10 see or hear it myself, but I heard from other guards, as
11 if apparently Zenga and Delic had a fight over
12 something, but I did not hear much about it. I heard
13 this from other guards and from other detainees. There
14 were some stories to that effect, that they had had a
15 quarrel, why and how I do not know, and that after that,
16 Zenga was absent from the camp for a time.
17 MS. McMURREY: Your Honour, I object to these answers. He
18 says he does not know, he found out from people in the
19 camp, that he has no personal knowledge about this
20 occurrence, and he keeps going on. I object to no
21 personal knowledge.
22 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Do you have any other questions to
24 MR. OLUJIC: Yes, your Honour.
25 Tell me, Mr. Vukalo, the different kinds of
1 uniforms that you saw in the camp.
2 A. I saw the camouflage uniform was most widespread.
3 Q. Were there uniforms of the TO, territorial defence, the
4 MUP, the military police, the HVO?
5 A. How do I know? I was most worried over myself and I was
6 terrified and thinking only how I could avoid beatings,
7 so I did not really take much notice of the uniforms,
8 but I did see the camouflage uniforms. I even saw the
9 signs of the moon and stars on a cap called the fez.
10 Q. So there were all kinds of uniforms?
11 A. I cannot say there were all kinds. Camouflage uniforms
12 were most widespread. There may have been others, but
13 I really do not know.
14 Q. Were you a member of the communist party, the League of
15 Communists of Yugoslavia, up to 1990?
16 A. Not until 1990. I was a member in 1986 or 1985, but by
17 1987 I stopped being a member.
18 Q. From your personal data, we see that you are now living
19 in Samac?
20 A. I am not living in Samac, I do not have a place to live
21 really nor do I have any permanent employment. My house
22 was burnt down, I have no property whatever; wherever
23 I can find a job I live, and that is how I am making
24 ends meet. Sometimes in Serbia, somewhere or anywhere
25 I can find a job, that is where I live, so I do not have
1 any permanent residence or any house or flat or
2 anything. Until something changes, I suppose one day it
3 will. I had everything; unfortunately it was burned
4 down. I have been destroyed financially, in every
6 Q. Have the authorities in the place where you are living
7 assisted you in finding a job? Have they given you any
8 material relief, any assistance?
9 A. No, none.
10 Q. Do you talk with the refugees and misplaced persons and
11 others from Celebici?
12 A. There are no refugees from Celebici. Let me repeat
13 again that I do not live in one particular place on a
14 permanent basis; I just look where I can find a job and
15 I stay there for a while and then move on with my wife
16 and child.
17 Q. In the course of your direct examination, you said that
18 there were massive beatings, as you described them, mass
19 beatings, and that on one occasion, all the prisoners in
20 hangar number 6 were beaten; is that true?
21 A. There were several of these mass beatings, I cannot say
22 exactly how often they occurred, they were not too
23 often, but they did occur several times and I remember
24 that we were all beaten when the International Red Cross
25 had registered us and left; then we were all given a
1 hiding. If necessary, I can describe it.
2 Q. No thank you?
3 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: I think the Trial Chamber will now rise
4 and reassemble at 12.00.
5 (11.30 am)
6 (A short break)
7 (12.00 pm)
8 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Mr. Olujic, you are still
9 cross-examining, are you?
10 MR. OLUJIC: Yes, your Honour. Thank you.
11 Mr. Vukalo, let us continue this
12 cross-examination. We will be through soon, so I would
13 like to remind you, as I did at the beginning, to be as
14 concise as possible and to answer the questions put to
15 you, as you did, more or less, in the first part of my
17 Mr. Vukalo, in the course of your
18 examination-in-chief, you mentioned Donje Selo, which is
19 close to your village, is it not?
20 A. Which testimony, here?
21 Q. Yesterday.
22 A. Donje Selo is about three kilometres from the beginning
23 of my village and I was at the far end of this village
24 in the hamlet of Vukalo.
25 Q. What did you say about Donje Selo, could you tell me
1 please? You mentioned Donje Selo; that is why I am
2 asking you and now you have repeated.
3 A. Yes, I know where Donje Selo is.
4 Q. You also said that it is about 3 kilometres from your
6 A. Cerici and Donje Selo are one next to the other and from
7 there to the beginning of my village is about 3
9 Q. You also mentioned in the course of the direct
10 examination, and when I say that I am referring to what
11 you had said yesterday in court -- you said, with
12 reference to Donje Selo, that they were organised for
13 defence, but not very well; is that not so?
14 A. I do not recall -- actually I do not know whether they
15 were organised at all. I just do not know.
16 Q. Do you know whether the villagers of Donje Selo had any
18 A. When I was in the Celebici camp, there were detainees
19 from Donje Selo, though I do not know much about it, but
20 I heard that there was some weapons that were
21 surrendered and I heard this from the detainees, but
22 I do not know much myself.
23 Q. Do you know what kind of weapons they had?
24 A. I heard in Celebici camp that they had a few, I do not
25 know how many, a few automatic rifles, M48. How many,
1 I do not know.
2 Q. Was any kind of village guard duty organised there?
3 A. Perhaps they did have guard duty, but I do not know
4 anything about that.
5 Q. Will you tell me please whether you know somebody known
6 as Focak? He was a guard?
7 A. Yes, you have just reminded me. He was known as Focak
8 and he worked in the prison in Foca. He was some kind
9 of investigator there, I think. Whether he was or not,
10 I do not know. He too was one of the ones who
11 interrogated us. He was a guard, but he also did the
12 interrogations for a time.
13 Q. What did he interrogate you about?
14 A. As far as I can recall, but I cannot remember too well,
15 how I was apprehended and brought to the camp, to the
16 building and then they asked whether I knew -- whether
17 anybody was armed in Bjelovcina, whether anybody was in
18 hiding there. That is as much as I can remember.
19 Q. And what was your answer to Focak?
20 A. I do not know exactly what I said, but I think that
21 I said that I did not know whether there were any people
22 there in Bjelovcina. I said that most of us men had
23 been arrested and detained in Konjic at the camp there
24 and in Celebici, that most of the people from the
25 village of Bjelovcina. All the younger men were
1 incarcerated in Celebici and in Konjic.
2 Q. During the interrogation by Focak, was any coercion used
3 against you? Were you physically mistreated?
4 A. Before I was interrogated, many other detainees were
6 Q. I am asking about you.
7 A. But let me say this. Many others were interrogated like
8 Vukasin Mr.kajic. He was beaten and hit both when he was
9 taken there and during the questioning, according to
10 what Vukasin Mr.kajic told us when he came back, so he
11 was beaten also on the way back.
12 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Witness, the question is directed to
13 you. It is not about other detainees. Counsel is
14 asking whether you were mistreated.
15 A. When I was taken to Focak, I was slapped and hit.
16 MR. OLUJIC: Did Focak mistreat you during the interrogation;
17 that is all I am asking.
18 A. He did not.
19 Q. Thank you. Would you be kind enough, you said during
20 your testimony that your village had been shelled; is
21 that right?
22 A. As together with the other people from my hamlet and
23 with the women and children.
24 Q. I am asking you whether your village was shelled, as you
25 said during your testimony?
1 A. I heard two shells somewhere at the beginning of the
2 village of Bjelovcina, in the direction of Donje Selo,
3 but I cannot say anything with certainty about that, but
4 I know that Jovo Gotovac was killed and Uros Djurica or
5 were killed by those shells. I learnt about that at the
6 Celebici camp.
7 Q. Who told you that?
8 A. The detainees from the village of Bjelovcina who were
9 brought in later.
10 Q. Can you give me the name and surname of those people who
11 told you that these people were killed by the shells
12 that fell on your village, if you know?
13 A. Yes, I do know. I was told by Dusan Tomic, Ranko Tomic
14 and some others.
15 Q. Thank you. Will you tell me, please: in your village
16 did you have a village leader, so to speak?
17 A. You mean a military leader or commander? No, I am not
18 aware of that.
19 Q. But how is that possible? A war was in the making, you
20 have no weapons, and you do not even have anybody who
21 might be in charge of the organisation. Maybe you do
22 not know the name of that person, or you are excluding
23 the possibility that there was a leader of that kind.
24 A. I am not aware at all that there were any leaders. We
25 did not have educated people in the village actually,
1 and I really do not see who could have assumed such a
3 Q. So your answer is that there were no such people?
4 A. As far as I know, no.
5 MR. OLUJIC: Thank you, Mr. Vukalo. I pass the witness.
6 Thank you, your Honours.
7 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Thank you, Mr. Olujic.
8 MR. MORAN: Your Honours, if I could again have a little bit
9 of time to get wired up?
10 May it please the court.
11 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Yes, you may proceed.
12 Cross-examined by MR. MORAN
13 Q. Thank you, your Honour. Good afternoon, sir.
14 A. Good afternoon.
15 Q. My name is Tom Moran, I am an attorney and I represent a
16 man named Hazim Delic. I am going to ask you some
17 questions. If at any time you do not understand one of
18 the questions I ask, will you please stop me and ask me
19 to repeat it or rephrase it, because frankly I do not
20 sometimes phrase questions as well as I probably
21 should. Will you do that for me, sir?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Sir, would you please also listen to my questions and
24 answer the question that I ask you? If you do, this
25 will go a whole lot quicker.
1 A. Very well.
2 Q. Okay, sir. One other thing, you have been very, very
3 good about this so far during both your direct and your
4 cross-examinations, but sometimes witnesses get into
5 conversation, people want to nod their heads, yes or
6 no. If you look round the courtroom you see two ladies
7 with strange looking machines; they are called court
8 reporters. They have to write down everything we say.
9 They cannot write down a nod. If you say yes or no when
10 that is appropriate, could you do that also, sir. Then
11 also sir, if at any time you want to stop and think for
12 a second, if you feel like you are confused or something
13 like that, let me know and we will work it out. Okay
14 sir? Can we do that?
15 A. Very well.
16 Q. Okay, sir, the first thing I would like to ask you about
17 is this: do you recall an incident some time when you
18 were in the camp, Celebici, probably in July, when some
19 Arab journalists came to the camp?
20 A. Yes, I do recall.
21 Q. Sir, tell the judges what occurred while those Arab
22 journalists were in the camp.
23 A. When those Arab journalists came, we were glad, hoping
24 and thinking that somebody had come to change our
25 plight, to alleviate our suffering. However when they
1 visited hangar number 6, we were beaten and hit. I was
2 one of those who were beaten, I remember that, and
3 Milovan Kuljanin had to go on his knees and pray, some
4 kind of prayer, the Muslim prayer. I know that we were
5 hit and beaten.
6 Q. Sir, did the Arab journalists film this beating?
7 A. They were filming something, but I do not know whether
8 they filmed this in particular, so I was mainly
9 concerned with myself. I did see them filming
10 something, I do not know whether they filmed that
11 particular incident.
12 Q. In fact, some of these members of the TV crew actually
13 took part in the beatings, did they not? They beat you,
14 for instance, did they not?
15 A. No, not the members of the team, the members of the
16 crew; they did not beat me, but the guards did.
17 Q. They made some of the detainees make confessions in
18 front of the cameras, like Rajko Djordjic, did they
19 not? Did not the guards and the TV crew make him admit
20 in front of the cameras that they committed all kinds of
21 crimes against Muslims?
22 A. I do not remember what you said about Rajko Djordjic.
23 I was just saying, sir, that I was worried for my own
24 safety, so I did not dare look much. We all realised,
25 actually, that these were not the people that we had
1 thought that we could be frank with, and tell them in
2 Cerici what was troubling us.
3 Q. In fact, the bottom line is this TV crew, these
4 journalists, were basically bad people, were they not?
5 A. Of course, since they watched us being beaten and some
6 of them were even laughing. They were not good people
7 from my point of view and from the point of view of the
8 other detainees.
9 Q. Sir, let me talk about another event which I do not
10 think you have talked about on either your direct or any
11 of the cross. Do you remember back some time in August
12 my client Mr. Delic came into hangar 6 with a list of
13 names of people to be released; do you remember that
15 A. Could you please explain it a little? To be released
16 home, or what, if anybody had a home.
17 Q. What I am saying is: some time in August 1992, after the
18 Red Cross visit, Mr. Delic came into hangar 6 and read
19 out a list of names of people who were to be released
20 from custody to go about their business, were not to be
21 transferred to another camp but actually to be sent home
22 if they had homes, or just released. Do you recall
24 A. Celebici was not a detention centre, it was a camp. At
25 least that is what I think. There were many occasions
1 when some detainees went to Konjic, to the sports hall
2 at Musala, or a fewer number were released, to Donje
3 Selo, where many of them -- where many of the
4 inhabitants of Bjelovcina were put up in Donje Selo, in
5 some kind of a house arrest.
6 Q. That is what I am talking about, the first time that
7 occurred, sir. Do you remember Mr. Delic calling out
8 Branko Sudar's name?
9 A. I cannot recall that. Perhaps, I just cannot remember.
10 Q. Okay. If you do not remember, that is fine, sir. That
11 is no problem at all.
12 Sir, let me ask you this: who have you talked with
13 and discussed with what you are going to testify about
15 A. What do you mean? Where?
16 Q. For instance, since you came to The Hague, outside of
17 the courtroom, have you discussed your testimony with
19 A. I spoke with Mr. Grant, the Prosecutor. I do not think
20 I spoke to anyone else.
21 Q. How long was the conversation with Mr. Grant? By the
22 way, just for the record, that would be Mr. Niemann, your
24 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: That is right.
25 MR. MORAN: I spoke with Mr. Grant; I cannot tell you exactly
1 how long it took.
2 MR. MORAN: Was it a long time?
3 A. Twice, I think, two or three times.
4 Q. Was it a long time or a short time?
5 A. The last conversation we had was a very brief one. It
6 was not long.
7 Q. That was the one yesterday when he asked you if you
8 would agree not to have a television interview; is that
9 the one you are talking about, sir?
10 A. Yes, there was that, and also I was in a room here for
11 maybe 15 minutes.
12 Q. Those were the two times you discussed your testimony
13 with Mr. Niemann?
14 A. And I spoke before that -- I think it was Tuesday or
15 Wednesday -- no Wednesday. I spoke to him I think three
16 times, but yesterday it was very brief, in the morning.
17 Q. How about the other conversations? Were they long
18 conversations, sir, or were they short conversations?
19 A. Apart from the one yesterday, the others were a bit
21 Q. During those conversations, did Mr. Niemann go over your
22 various statements with you?
23 A. Yes, he put some questions to me, the gentleman, and
24 I answered to the best of my recollection.
25 Q. Basically he went over with you what he was going to ask
1 so you would not be surprised in the courtroom; is that
2 not right?
3 A. Yes, something like that.
4 Q. That is fine; all lawyers do that, sir. He went over
5 both your statement given to the Office of the
6 Prosecutor and your statement given to the examining
7 magistrate in Belgrade, did he not? If you know.
8 A. I know only that he put some questions to me, like the
9 ones he did yesterday. We covered those questions.
10 Q. Okay, that is fine. Did he at any point during these
11 conversations point out to you that some of the written
12 statements might have had some inconsistencies in them,
13 between the two different statements?
14 A. No. I just said that I would tell the truth, of course,
15 as best as I can remember. I cannot remember
16 everything, and the memories are most unpleasant, so
17 I have done my best to forget many things and I have
18 forgotten such things as dates and some names, but, of
19 course, I will never be able to forget everything.
20 Q. In fact, Mr. Vukalo, when you were giving your statement
21 -- let us talk about the one in Belgrade, to the
22 examining magistrate. You wanted to tell the truth to
23 him, did you not?
24 A. When I was making my statement to the judge in Belgrade
25 in that committee, the court for the investigation of
1 war crimes, this was the first time I had spoken to
2 anyone about my suffering. I was terribly distressed,
3 restless, pitiful, desperate. I had been left without
4 anything in the world; all my material property, all my
5 means had gone.
6 Q. Yes, sir, I understand that. You have said that
7 before. Sir, when you were making that statement to
8 that examining magistrate in Belgrade, you wanted to
9 tell him the truth, did you not?
10 A. I know that I spoke with interruptions, it was not
11 connected, it did not make much sense. Believe me, I do
12 not myself know what I said. When I was exchanged after
13 my detention, I did not speak to anyone for a month
14 about that.
15 Q. Yes, sir, and when you talked to the examining
16 magistrate in the district court in Belgrade, sir, you
17 wanted to tell him the truth, did you not?
18 A. I repeat again: I was desperate, trying to remember
19 something that I wanted to forget, it was all
20 disconnected, I was sobbing, I do not myself know what
21 I said.
22 Q. Sir, when you were talking to that examining magistrate
23 in the district court of Belgrade, you wanted to tell
24 him the truth, did you not?
25 A. Look, we can go on like this until tomorrow.
1 Q. Yes, sir. I ask a simple yes or no question, sir.
2 Either you wanted to tell him the truth or you did not.
3 It was what you wanted to do and only you know what you
4 wanted to do. Did you want to tell him the truth or did
5 you not?
6 A. I did tell the truth, but it was not linked together, it
7 was with interruptions and what is stated in this
8 statement from the committee from the court for the
9 investigation of war crimes, how they put it down, that
10 is not the way I said it.
11 Q. Yes, sir and sir -- let us talk about how this was done,
12 okay, how this statement was taken by this investigating
13 magistrate in Belgrade. Did anyone threaten you before
14 the statement was taken?
15 A. No.
16 Q. Did anyone beat you before the statement was taken?
17 A. No.
18 Q. Did anyone beat you while the statement was being taken?
19 A. No.
20 Q. Did anyone threaten you while the statement was being
22 A. No.
23 Q. Okay, sir. After the statement was taken, did you have
24 the right to read it before you signed it?
25 A. I was in a terrible condition, so that -- believe me, as
1 far as I recall, I do not think I even read it. I do
2 not remember, I do not remember reading it.
3 Q. Okay, so if there is any mistakes in there or anything
4 that is wrong in there, it is because that investigating
5 magistrate put it down wrong; is that your position,
7 A. I was making this with interruptions, without any much
8 sense, and maybe the person who was taking down the
9 notes misunderstood me.
10 Q. So if there is anything that is not true in there, it is
11 because the person who took it down, that investigating
12 magistrate, just was not doing his job properly, that is
13 your position; am I correct in that, sir?
14 A. No, that is not correct, but I was sobbing and crying
15 and I made interruptions. I do not know how long those
16 interruptions were, but it was really a hard time I was
17 going through. It was the first time I was making a
18 confession about what we had been through, I personally
19 and the other people in the camp, so that it was awfully
20 hard for me. I felt miserable.
21 Q. Yes, sir, I understand that, and so if there was
22 anything that is incorrect in that statement it is not
23 because you told the magistrate something that was not
24 factually correct, but rather because the magistrate
25 wrote it down wrong; is that basically what you are
1 saying, sir?
2 A. Probably he took down things but not exactly in the way
3 I wanted to put it. I may have said it that way, but
4 I have no idea what I said now.
5 Q. That is fine, sir. Let us go on to the statement you
6 gave to the Office of the Prosecutor, the one you gave
7 in the Tribunal's office in Belgrade. Let me make sure
8 I understand how this occurred. You went into a room
9 with Mr. MacLeod and there was an interpreter there,
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Mr. MacLeod would ask you a question and it would be
13 interpreted into Serbian for you, right?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. And then the interpreter would tell him in English --
16 A. As far as I can recall, that is the way it was.
17 Q. And then the interpreter would tell him in English what
18 you said and he would write it down, right?
19 A. Yes, I think that is the way it was.
20 Q. And then at the very end, the interpreter read you the
21 entire statement in Serbian, right? Do you remember
23 A. Believe me, I do not.
24 Q. Okay. You had the right to make any corrections you
25 wanted to in that statement, did you not?
1 A. I was crying then also after I had finished giving that
2 statement. I do not know, I think I did not put
3 anything in it. There could have been anything in the
4 statement. I do not recall inserting anything
6 Q. I am not asking you whether you made any corrections,
7 sir, I am just asking you whether you had the chance to
8 if you had wanted to.
9 A. Yes, probably I had a chance, but I do not remember
10 doing it.
11 Q. Nobody mistreated you before you gave that statement,
12 did they?
13 A. No.
14 Q. Mr. MacLeod did not threaten you?
15 A. No, he did not.
16 Q. The interpreter did not threaten you, did he? Actually,
17 I think it was a she. They did not threaten you?
18 A. It was a he.
19 Q. It was a he, okay. The interpreter did not threaten
20 you, did he?
21 A. No, he did not.
22 Q. Neither one of them mistreated you before or during the
23 giving of that statement, did they?
24 A. No, they did not.
25 Q. So if there is anything that is factually incorrect in
1 that statement, it is because either the interpreter or
2 Mr. MacLeod did not write it down right; is that your
3 position, sir?
4 A. Regarding some scenes which I described which I was very
5 distressed to recall, I asked them to stop, so we
6 stopped and then continued again afterwards, so I am not
7 quite sure what I stated then. I was describing these
8 scenes which really were distressful to me.
9 Q. You wanted to tell Mr. MacLeod the truth, did you not?
10 A. What I was saying to him, I told him -- I am not quite
11 sure myself what I told him, but, as I said, I was very
13 Q. I understand that, sir. What you told Mr. MacLeod was,
14 to be best of your knowledge, the truth, right?
15 A. What I told the gentleman -- I told him to the best of
16 my recollection of those scenes and when I came across
17 in my memory a scene which really made me feel wretched,
18 and in fact that was the first time that I was giving a
19 statement, something like a statement, to someone
20 holding such an important office. I had never been in a
21 court before. I had never been in a courtroom before.
22 It was something for me -- something which seemed quite
23 awesome to me. Until then I had never been in such
25 Q. Except, of course, when you gave your statement to the
1 investigating magistrate in Belgrade.
2 A. Yes, but what I did in Belgrade, the statement I made in
3 a simple-looking room, so I was not, how shall I put
4 it -- there were not so many apparati in there and all
5 these devices. It was simple.
6 Q. Yes, sir, I understand. If you look around this
7 courtroom with all the computer terminals, it looks like
8 Star Wars, and I understand that. It is unusual for all
9 of us to be around this, so I understand how you are
11 Sir, in your statement to the Office of the
12 Prosecutor, if there is something in there that is
13 factually wrong, that would be because Mr. MacLeod or the
14 interpreter made a mistake; is that correct?
15 A. Yes, I have already stated I was not exactly coherent.
16 I was interrupting myself all the time. How the
17 gentleman who was doing the interpretation did his job,
18 I do not know, I cannot tell. I do not remember many of
19 the things which I stated myself. I only remember some.
20 Q. What I am getting at, sir, is: if there is something in
21 your statement to the Office of the Prosecutor that is
22 factually incorrect, it is not because you told them
23 something wrong, it is that they got it down wrong; is
24 that correct?
25 A. Maybe when I spoke in this interrupted fashion, maybe
1 that was the way it appeared. I do not know how the
2 gentleman interpreted it.
3 Q. So if there is something that is factually wrong in your
4 statement to the Office of the Prosecutor, it is not
5 because you told them something wrong but because they
6 put it down wrong; is that your position, sir?
7 A. I am saying again what I said there. I remember some of
8 the things I said there and I do not remember other
9 things. I spoke in an interrupted way; there were many
10 pauses and I do not know how the gentleman interpreted
12 Q. Let me give you an example, sir, okay? Other lawyers
13 have already talked about this. You testified on your
14 direct examination that you and the people that were
15 captured by the Muslims with you did not have any
16 weapons. Do you remember testifying to that on direct?
17 A. What I said was not that I was captured but that
18 I approached them with a group of women and children and
19 old people, with my sick mother and my brother, coming
20 from this hamlet, the people from this hamlet where
21 I lived, Vukalo, and we approached the village of
22 Kralupi. We were surprised, we were afraid, we did not
23 know what was happening.
24 Q. Yes, sir, but what I am getting at, sir, is this: you
25 testified that, however you got into the custody of the
1 Muslim and the Croats, neither you nor anyone with you
2 had any weapons. Do you remember testifying to that
4 A. Let me first say that I was not arrested at all, that
5 I came up to them with a group of women, children, and
6 my neighbours from this hamlet and as for weapons, I did
7 not have any weapons.
8 Q. Nobody with you had any either, did they?
9 A. I and my brother were carrying my sick mother, and we
10 were not together within a space of 10 or 15 metres. We
11 were scattered every which way; there was Zorka Vukalo,
12 an elderly woman. She was very sick, she was also being
13 carried. The children were crying, the women were
14 scared and there was a long drawn-out column.
15 Q. Yes, sir, and among all these scared women and crying
16 children, and the other men that were with you, you
17 testified on direct examination that there were no
18 weapons in that group. Do you recall that? I am just
19 asking you whether you recall testifying about that or
21 A. As far as I know, there were no weapons. I do not
22 recall there were any weapons.
23 Q. That is what I was trying to get to. If we had gone
24 right to that, we would have saved some time. I am just
25 pointing out something in your statement to the Office
1 of the Prosecutor. I will read it out to you and then
2 I am going to ask you a question about it, okay?
3 According to the Office of the Prosecutor's statement,
4 you said:
5 "We surrendered about 100 metres from Kralupi to
6 Amir and we gave up the two rifles we had kept to
7 protect ourselves."
8 Take my word for it, that is in the statement that
9 the Office of the Prosecutor says you gave to them. If
10 you like, we can get a copy of the statement; you can
11 look at it, in Bosnian or in English. What I am getting
12 at, sir, is: when that was put in your statement, you
13 never told that to the Office of the Prosecutor, did
15 A. I do not know of there having been any rifles, I do not
16 know. I did not see any.
17 Q. So if that got in your statement, it was because either
18 Mr. MacLeod or the interpreter put it in your statement.
19 You never told them that, right?
20 A. The way I spoke in Belgrade in the offices of the
21 Tribunal of The Hague, I told you, I was in such a state
22 that I really do not know exactly what I said.
23 Q. So you do not know whether you told them that in
24 Belgrade and it was wrong or they just put it in your
25 statement; is that what you are telling me right now,
2 A. Maybe, while I was making this statement which was, as
3 I said, interrupted on several occasions and I was
4 crying. Maybe that was the way the interpreter
5 understood me and formulated this, but I do know as to
6 the best of my knowledge that there were no rifles.
7 Q. I understand that, sir, and I am not saying that is not
8 correct. What I am saying is that this got in your
9 statement without you telling them that and they either
10 misunderstood you or put it in there or made a mistake;
11 is that correct?
12 A. For instance in the statement they used a word
13 "arrested". I was not at all arrested, so the way this
14 happened, this other thing could also have happened in
15 the same way. I was not arrested at all. I was going
16 towards the village of Kralupi, with the women and
17 children, whereas "arrested" means something else.
18 I suppose in battle you may be arrested. I was in
19 civilian clothes, in my sweatsuit and with the women,
20 the children, the elderly and the sick from the hamlet
21 of Vukalo and we walked up to them.
22 Q. It is your position that the investigator and the
23 interpreter from the Office of the Prosecutor made some
24 kind of mistake when they put in your statement that you
25 and the group you were with had two rifles?
1 A. I do not remember. I do not recall having said that.
2 Q. So if that got in your written statement, it should not
3 be there, is that what you are saying?
4 JUDGE JAN: You are asking the same question again.
5 MR. MORAN: I am wanting one answer. Your Honour
6 understanding that you can draw your own inference,
7 I will pass on to other things.
8 Sir, you testified, I believe it was on
9 cross-examination by Ms. Residovic, about an incident
10 while you were in custody in the Musala camp about a
11 mock execution; do you remember testifying about that?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. It would have been in early January of 1993, right
14 before you made that statement to those investigators
15 from the Bosnian army, a couple of days before; that is
16 what you said, is it not?
17 A. In Musala, I and not only I myself but many other
18 inmates gave various statements in the various command
19 posts, where we had to go to get food, and we also went
20 to dig the trenches and in various places we were
21 interrogated. I was interrogated also in the SUP in
22 Konjic. I know that two days prior to one of those
23 interrogations in the Konjic SUP I was subjected, as
24 I have already described, to this mock execution. I was
25 going to dig some trenches up there on the frontline,
1 with another three or four detainees, camp inmates, and
2 there I was the victim of this mock execution.
3 Q. Sir, you would agree with me that that is mistreatment
4 of inmates, would you not, or prisoners?
5 A. Of course. I was not aware that it would be a mock
6 execution. I thought they were really going to execute
7 me and we were also beaten there on the frontline.
8 Q. Sir, you would agree with me that that kind of activity,
9 beating people on the frontline and having mock
10 executions, is mistreatment of prisoners. We can agree
11 on that, can we not?
12 A. Of course it is maltreatment.
13 MR. MORAN: Your Honour, could the usher give this witness
14 the Serbian translation of his statement to the Office
15 of the Prosecutor? I do not know what exhibit number it
16 is -- D60/4 maybe? It would have come in this morning.
17 60/1, probably, because it would have come in under
19 THE REGISTRAR: D60/1B.
20 MR. MORAN: Sir, would you go to the very last sentence in
21 that statement, the last page? It is a one-sentence
22 paragraph. Can you find it?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Would you please read it out loud?
25 A. "Hristo Vukalo has confirmed" --
1 Q. No, sir, above that there is a one-sentence paragraph,
2 starts out "While I was detained in Musala camp..."
3 I think that is what I am talking about. It is part of
4 the statement; do you see that, just one sentence in the
6 A. Yes, I see the sentence now.
7 Q. Would you please read it to the judges?
8 A. "While I was in the Musala camp, I did not see or hear
9 of any mistreatment of prisoners."
10 Sir, I had to state it this way. If they had told
11 me that milk was black I would have had to say that,
12 lest I be treated the same way I was treated in
13 Celebici. I was afraid of that. Who dared say that
14 there were beatings going on in Musala?
15 Q. I understand, sir. When you gave this statement, you
16 were afraid the person you gave this statement to was
17 going to beat you and abuse you; is that right?
18 A. No, I was not afraid of this person to which I was
19 giving the statement. I was afraid of the guards there,
20 and I was afraid that I might be subjected to the same
21 treatment, as I said, as the one I received in Celebici
22 unless I told them what is written here.
23 Q. Go to the very front page, please. Read the words up at
24 the very top of that -- it should be in all capital
25 letters. The very front page, sir. It looks something
1 like this (indicates). Read it right at the top. What
2 does it say? Just read it out loud to the judges.
3 A. You mean "Witness Statement"?
4 Q. No, sir, the part that says, "International Criminal
5 Tribunal for the prosecution of persons responsible...",
6 that part. Read that to the judges.
7 A. "International Criminal Tribunal", that is what it says
8 here, "for the prosecution of persons responsible for
9 serious violations of international law committed in the
10 territory of the Former Yugoslavia since 1991."
11 Q. Let us go on to something else, sir. You talked about a
12 man named Buric during your direct examination; do you
13 remember that, sir?
14 A. Ivica Buric who was in Celebici; I used to see him in
15 Celebici in the camp.
16 Q. He is the guy that worked with you in the Igman factory,
18 A. No, Ivica Buric -- the one that was in Celebici did not
19 work at the Igman factory. Ivica Kozara from the
20 village of Pokojiste did work there.
21 Q. From the village of where?
22 A. From the village of Pokojiste.
23 Q. If the statement that was written up by the Office of
24 the Prosecutor for your signature says:
25 "I did not see Ivica Buric in the camp. He was
1 from the village of Pokojiste and worked with me in the
2 Igman factory."
3 If that statement says that, that is wrong; is
4 that correct? That statement is a mistake?
5 A. I did not see Ivica Kozara in the Celebici camp. He
6 worked at Igman in this factory in which I also worked,
7 but I did see Ivica Buric, this younger person and
8 smaller in build and height than Ivica Kozara. Kozara
9 Ivica was on the far end, the upper end of the village
10 of Pokojiste. As for Ivica Buric I do not know where he
11 lived. I only know him from the camp.
12 Q. What I am getting at is this: if you go to the statement
13 in Bosnian -- I will help you find it, but I cannot --
14 it is going to be some place in the middle, and there is
15 going to be a few very short paragraphs. One
16 paragraph starts off, "Both men beat us", and another
17 one says, "One guard, Focak, interrogated us."
18 See if you can find that part of the statement.
19 It is at the top of the second page from the back. Let
20 us do this. This is the last page; it shows the
21 certificate that you signed. Then there is a page
22 before that with writing on it, and then a page right
23 before that. So it will be two pages with writing on it
24 from the back. Have you found it? It starts off
25 "Jedan ...", the first word on the page. It talks
1 about Focak. Have you found it? It is the second or
2 third page from the back. Right up at the top in the
3 upper left-hand corner; see where it talks about Focak?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. The next paragraph, okay? Read that out loud for the
6 judges, please.
7 A. It says here, but anything can be written here:
8 "I did not see Ivica Buric in the camp. He was
9 from the village Pokojiste and worked with me at the
10 Igman factory."
11 That was a mistake. It was Ivica Kozara.
12 Q. So the Office of the Prosecutor, they did not put it
13 down right, the investigators from the Office of the
14 Prosecutor; that is what you are telling the court?
15 A. It is possible that he did not understand me, or perhaps
16 I did not say the right name, whereas what I had
17 meant -- the person I had meant was Ivica Kozara.
18 Q. That is fine. I am just trying to clear up that that is
19 a problem that the investigator from the Office of the
20 Prosecutor and the interpreter were not doing their job
21 correctly; is that right?
22 A. I did not say they were not doing their job correctly.
23 The person I meant was Ivica Kozara from the village of
24 Pokojiste. Perhaps they did not understand that.
25 MR. MORAN: Your Honour, if the usher could show a document
1 to the witness? Will you show it to the prosecutor on
2 the way over? I am sure Mr. Niemann would like to see
3 it. (Handed).
4 THE REGISTRAR: The document is marked D9/3.
5 MR. MORAN: Sir, while Mr. Niemann is reading that, when the
6 usher hands it to you, the only question I want to ask
7 about it right now is: is that document in your
8 handwriting? If it is, fine; if it is not, that is fine
9 too. Is that document in your handwriting, sir?
10 A. It seems that it is.
11 Q. Sir, would you please read it to the judges out loud?
12 A. When I wrote this, that is what it says here, "I was a
13 member of the SDS ..."
14 Q. Continue reading.
15 A. "... from 15th March 1989. I was born in Bjelovcina on
16 29th March 1964, address Bjelovcina, Konjic. Father
17 Vukalo Spaso and mother nee Babic Milka. I have not
18 been punished so far. I have no criminal record.
19 I have not taken part in any combat operations. I did
20 not belong to any military formation. I did not take
21 part in war operations against the army of BH", the
22 Croat Muslim army, I presume.
23 Q. What does the next sentence say, sir?
24 A. It says here -- what does this mean, PM?
25 Q. How about "7.62 millimetre submachine-gun"; does that
1 look like what it says, sir?
2 A. 7.62 --
3 Q. Millimetre.
4 A. "With folding stock. From the 17th May 1992 to 21st May
5 1992, during the attack on Bjelovcina, I was in the
6 village of Kralupi, without weapons, with women and
7 children, from where I was taken to the Celebici prison
8 on 21st May 1992.
9 Q. Okay.
10 A. "I know of no data of any damage sustained."
11 Q. It is dated 6th June 1993, about a year after the
12 battle, right, and it is your signature on it?
13 A. It has a signature, but what combat -- I gave this on
14 6th June 1993. Believe me, I do not remember who took
15 this statement.
16 Q. That is fine, sir. I am just asking you if that is all
17 in your handwriting. I think you have said it is.
18 A. It seems that it is.
19 MR. MORAN: I move to introduce -- what is it, 6 --
20 THE REGISTRAR: D9/3.
21 MR. MORAN: For the limited purpose of impeachment, your
23 A. 6th June 1993, when I was in the camp in Konjic.
24 MR. NIEMANN: Your Honours, I do not know whether we can do
25 this after lunch, but I wish to object to it and make a
1 submission. Might I suggest, your Honour, if it is
2 convenient to the court, that when I make the
3 submission, if the witness is in the courtroom, that he
4 could remove his headset. It may solve the problem of
5 the witness participating or it being said in any way
6 that we are suggesting answers to him. I think the
7 witness would understand that legal argument is one
8 thing and giving testimony is another. It may be better
9 all round if he was to remove his headset while counsel
10 discuss these matters, if that was suitable to your
11 Honour, but I think perhaps we could pursue this after
13 MR. MORAN: Your Honour, there is another option. I think
14 the interpreters and the court reporters as much as
15 anyone ought to be involved in this. I bet we could go
16 for another 30 or 40 minutes and be done with this
17 person and be done for the week, because it is my
18 understanding this is the last prosecution witness for
19 this week. If we postpone our lunch for a few minutes,
20 we may very well all of us be able to be out about 2.30.
21 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: We can still continue until 5.30.
22 MR. MORAN: That is true, your Honour; we can continue.
23 I was hoping to break for the day.
24 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: There is still another
25 cross-examination to go.
1 MR. MORAN: Yes, your Honour. This would be an appropriate
2 time for lunch, I agree with Mr. Niemann.
3 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: We will decide that when we come back
4 at 2.30.
5 (1.05 pm)
6 (Adjourned until 2.30 pm)
2 (2.30 pm)
3 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Mr. Moran, you are already standing.
4 MR. MORAN: Yes, your Honour. I think I may be able to
5 shorten this a little bit. Mr. Niemann is going to
6 object to that exhibit. I will just withdraw the
7 offer. That will save us all a lot of time and trouble.
8 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: I thought as much.
9 MR. MORAN: Your Honour, in view of this witness's statement
10 that the Office of the Prosecutor coerced a statement
11 from him, we do not think any further cross-examination
12 is necessary.
13 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Okay.
14 MS. McMURREY: I know this may be a surprise to all of you,
15 but in light of the cross-examination that has taken
16 place so far, we do not feel we have any further
17 questions of this witness either.
18 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: You are following the evidence closely.
19 MS. McMURREY: Yes, thank you very much.
20 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Any re-examination?
21 Re-examined by MR. NIEMANN
22 Q. Yes, your Honour, I just need to clarify a couple of
23 matters. Mr. Vukalo, during the course of
24 cross-examination, you were asked some questions
25 concerning the attack on your village at the
1 commencement of the war round 20th, 21st May 1992; do
2 you remember being questioned about that?
3 MR. MORAN: Excuse me, your Honour, I am not trying to
4 interrupt, but I am looking at the transcript. The
5 initial exchange where I withdrew the offer of that
6 document and waived further cross is not in the
7 transcript. If the court reporters could pick it up off
8 the tape for the official transcript, I would appreciate
10 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Thank you very much for that
12 MR. NIEMANN: Do you remember being questioned about that,
13 Mr. Vukalo?
14 A. About the beginning of the war? Is that what you are
16 Q. Yes, there is just one matter I wish to clarify with you
17 about it. You were asked by Defence counsel some
18 questions about that, when the attack started. Do you
19 remember those questions?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. In your evidence, I think this may be more of an
22 interpretation error than anything else, did you say
23 that there were no persons killed or casualties "among
24 the Muslims and Croats", or did you say "due to the
25 Muslims or Croats"?
1 A. There were no casualties among the Muslim and Croats;
2 not one of them was killed by an inhabitant of the
3 village of Bjelovcina.
4 Q. Thank you. You were also asked some question about some
5 Arab journalists that came to the camp; do you remember
6 questions about that?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Do you know how many of these Arab journalists were in
9 the group? Are you able to remember that?
10 A. I cannot recall exactly, I think there were two or three
11 in the group, but there were many guards around, the
12 Celebici guards.
13 Q. How did you know that they were Arabs? Did somebody
14 tell you that or did you hear it in conversation or
15 something of that nature? How did you determine that
16 they were Arab journalists?
17 A. When they saw us being beaten by the guards, they
18 laughed, and afterwards, when the whole thing was over,
19 we heard from the guards that they were Arab
21 Q. This was a TV crew, was it, that was there on that day,
22 so far as you know, a television crew?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. You were asked some questions about the last sentence in
25 the statement given to the Office of the Prosecutor
1 which you read out and which I will read out to remind
2 you, where you said:
3 "While I was detained in Musala camp, I did not
4 see or hear any mistreatment of prisoners."
5 You spoke of mock executions and being forced to
6 dig trenches. Did that happen in the Musala camp, or
7 did that happen somewhere outside of the camp?
8 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: I do not see the relationship with
9 this, and there is no point in repeating that question
10 which resulted in whatever answer he gave. It must have
11 been complete.
12 MR. NIEMANN: As your Honour pleases; I will not press it.
13 JUDGE JAN: I want to ask one question: how many visits of
14 Arab journalists took place in the camp?
15 A. As far as I can remember, there was that one that came
16 to Celebici.
17 MR. NIEMANN: I have nothing further.
18 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Any other questions?
19 MR. NIEMANN: No.
20 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: I think that is all for this witness.
21 Thank you very much for your effort. You are
23 (The witness withdrew)
24 MR. NIEMANN: Your Honours, so masterful was the
25 cross-examination by Mr. Moran that the Defence have all
1 collapsed in their cross-examination, and has thus
2 caught the Prosecution somewhat by surprise as we were
3 not expecting such a masterful performance, such that
4 there would be no further cross-examination this
5 afternoon. Regrettably, your Honours, we have no other
6 witnesses available to be called today, so the only
7 other witness that was going to be made available was
8 Mr. Panzer and there were special arrangements that had
9 to be made for special interpreters to speak German and
10 so forth, which was a matter of some considerable
11 expense and our estimate was that the evidence would run
12 through until the end of the day. Unfortunately that
13 has not happened, but we have been left with no further
14 evidence to call just at the moment, your Honours.
15 MR. MORAN: Your Honour, we understand how it is going to be
16 difficult for him and difficult for us to get our
17 witnesses straight, so we have no objection. But, in
18 view of the compliment, I would like to buy him a drink
19 after court if he is willing.
20 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Thank you very much. I think we are
21 not exhausted yet. We still have a few things to deal
23 MR. NIEMANN: Yes, your Honours.
24 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: I think there were some applications
25 for protective measures. I am not too sure how prepared
1 the Defence is. There is first the protective measures
2 for Witness S, which was filed on 22nd July. There is
3 also the other one for Witness R, leave to call Witness
4 R, and then protective measures for Witness R. I do not
5 know how the Defence is prepared. They are fairly easy
6 things, except for the usual comment about turning this
7 into a secret trial and sometimes making it undesirable
8 for protection. Here actually they have been filed long
9 enough for one to be able to determine whether a
10 response should have been made by now, because 22nd July
11 is a long time.
12 MR. NIEMANN: Your Honours, perhaps I could indicate
13 something with respect to our application, a decision
14 that has been made very recently not to proceed to call
15 Witness R, and as a consequence of that, we indicate now
16 that we will be withdrawing the application, and we will
17 formally withdraw it, your Honours, and file our
18 withdrawal with the Registrar.
19 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: So we will now deal with only Witness
21 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honour, might the Prosecution hand me a
22 piece of paper or in private session very quickly just
23 tell me who we are talking about? I did not bring the
24 motion. I may have no response at all when I find out
25 who it is. I cannot remember in this cluttered mind of
1 mine who it is we are talking about with regard to
2 Witness S.
3 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: The Trial Chamber is quite sorry for
4 that type of arrangement. Perhaps we should have
5 informed you before now.
6 MR. ACKERMAN: I am not concerned about that at all. If it
7 is something I really need to put some thought to then
8 I might ask leave to do that, but I suspect if I have
9 not responded to the application by now, it is one that
10 did not concern me at the time. I just would like to
11 know the name of the witness we are talking about and
12 that would help me know where I am.
13 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: We can go into private session so he
14 can be told. Mr. Niemann, is it easy for you to provide
16 MR. NIEMANN: I can provide a piece of paper with the name
18 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: The name of the witness, yes.
19 MR. NIEMANN: If that might be handed to Mr. Ackerman?
21 MR. NIEMANN: Your Honours, I do not know who -- this is a
22 motion that was filed before I got into the case so I am
23 not familiar with it, but some enquiries have been made
24 because there may be some doubt about it. I am sorry,
25 your Honour, the name I was given may not be the one,
1 I am not sure.
2 MR. GREAVES: I had a telephone call to the effect that
3 Witness R was Witness S or Witness S was Witness R and
4 I cannot remember which it was. My learned friend is as
5 confused as I am now.
6 MS. McMURREY: I think it was Witness S was Witness Q, the
7 same thing.
8 MS. RESIDOVIC: We would just like to be told who is
9 Witness S and who is Witness R because, as far as we
10 were informed, Witness S was previously announced as
11 Witness Q, and now Mr. Niemann has told us that it is
12 Witness R, so there is total confusion, so please let us
13 clear this up so we know who we are talking about.
14 JUDGE JAN: What is the nature of the protection you are
15 seeking? His image should be distorted or his evidence
16 should not come out?
17 MR. NIEMANN: I think, your Honours, it will be -- I need to
18 check, but it will be the anonymity of the name and
19 protection from the image, that is, as I understand it,
20 the basis of the application. I am sorry, I regret that
21 I am unable to assist your Honour any further. It is
22 being obtained at the moment so that hopefully I can
23 clarify that shortly.
24 JUDGE JAN: And also check he has not appeared on Belgrade
1 MR. NIEMANN: I will endeavour to do that as well,
2 your Honour.
3 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honours, my observation is that what is
4 going on here is kind of a test of the ability of
5 lawyers to operate off the top of their heads with no
6 knowledge whatsoever, and I would suggest maybe the best
7 course of action is for us to give up on this today and
8 give us all a chance to -- it may take five minutes
9 later to deal with it. It is probably going to take us
10 20 minutes at least to get it sorted out today.
11 Probably in the interests of time it might make abundant
12 sense to deal with it in five minutes the next time we
13 come into session.
14 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: I agree entirely. I think it might be
15 an application which can be dealt with in a very short
17 MR. NIEMANN: I do very much hesitate to say any more at all,
18 this afternoon, your Honours. I am assured now that
19 Witness R is the person we say it is and Witness S is
20 the person whose name is written on the note I gave to
21 Mr. Ackerman, so I am assured of that. I am able to
22 provide the name of Witness R if that would resolve any
23 confusion as well.
24 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: That is to be withdrawn, is it?
25 MR. NIEMANN: It is to be withdrawn, yes.
1 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: What we are concerned with is Witness
3 MR. NIEMANN: Also to deal with the matters which are sought
4 in relation to Witness S. They are the use of a
5 pseudonym, suppression of identity and identifying
6 information, and non-use of the name other than the
7 pseudonym in proceedings in the Chamber, and evidence
8 relating to identity to be heard in private session.
9 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Actually, when are we expecting the
10 witness to be called, so that if it is not so urgent, we
11 can defer hearing argument until that time?
12 MR. NIEMANN: Your Honours, we are not expecting this witness
13 to be called in the next two-week session the Chamber
14 will be sitting. It will be after that two-week
16 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: We need not worry about it now.
17 MS. RESIDOVIC: Your Honour, I am still as confused as
18 I was before our learned colleague gave us the
19 explanation, because, from the conversation I had with
20 Ms. Teresa McHenry when we received this request, I saw
21 from what is written here that Witness S is a person who
22 asked for protection after having received some
23 unpleasant telephone calls, so if it is the name that
24 Mr. Niemann has written, it is not the same person,
25 because, according to the explanation of the
1 Prosecution, this witness asked for protective measures
2 for quite different reasons.
3 So I apologise, I am still not sure who is who,
4 which witness is being withdrawn and which one is
5 coming, because from the substance of the argument and
6 the talk I had with a representative of the Prosecution,
7 I understood that Witness S was the one who was
8 previously referred to as Witness Q, and who has asked
9 for protection because he has lately been exposed to
10 threats by telephone, and the person whose name has been
11 given is not that person.
12 MR. MORAN: Maybe to sort all this out, your Honours, it
13 might be a good thing for us all to just leave it
14 sitting where it is right now, and over the two-week
15 break, if somebody, preferably from the Office of the
16 Prosecutor, would put together on -- I was going to say
17 one sheet of paper, but given the fact we are almost
18 through the alphabet, a limited number of sheets of
19 paper, with:
20 "Witness A: Name equals ...
21 "Witness B: Name equals ...
22 "Witness C: Name equals ...", for a couple of
23 reasons, not the least of which is that it will probably
24 make it a whole lot easier for the Trial Chamber if that
25 is in the record. It will sure make us a lot happier
1 when we do not have to worry about whether Witness Q
2 changed his name to Witness S, and witness Z did
4 While I am on my feet on this subject, one thing
5 I think we need to think about is: earlier this week
6 I cross-examined a man, Dr Grubac, and mentioned Witness
7 P; remember we went into private session. At other
8 points, in fact I think during direct, the name that is
9 attached to Witness P, his true name, was mentioned at
10 various places and whatever the rules are on doing that
11 is fine with me; just somebody should not be referring
12 to him by his real name and then somebody else by the
13 pseudonym. It might be a whole lot easier if we came up
14 with some solution to that.
15 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: I think we have sufficient time within
16 which to reconcile these discrepancies. I am sure with
17 your observations we now have the Prosecution can do
19 MR. NIEMANN: We will certainly do that, your Honour.
20 I think it is a very good suggestion. We will sort that
22 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Thank you very much. I think it is a
23 merited vacation in a sense, but I hope we will be able
24 to come back in two weeks time invigorated. Thank you
25 very much.
1 MR. MORAN: Thank you, your Honour. Have a good break.
2 (3.00 pm)
3 (Court adjourned until 10.00 am,
4 Monday, 1st September 1997)