1 Tuesday, 2nd September 1997
2 (11.00 am)
3 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Good morning, ladies and gentlemen.
4 Can we have the appearances first.
5 MR. NIEMANN: If your Honours please, my name is Niemann and
6 I appear with my colleagues Ms. McHenry, Mr. Turone,
7 Mr. Khan and Ms. Van Dusschoten for the Prosecution.
8 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Can we have the appearances for the
10 MS. RESIDOVIC: Good morning your Honours, I am Edina
11 Residovic, Defence counsel for Mr. Zejnil Delalic.
12 Defending Mr. Delalic with me is my colleague, Eugene
13 O'Sullivan, professor from Canada.
14 MR. OLUJIC: Good morning your Honours, my name is Zeljko
15 Olujic, I am Defence counsel of Mr. Zdravko Mucic
16 together with my colleague Mr. Michael Greaves, attorney
17 from the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern
18 Ireland. Before I sit down, may I ask the court's
19 indulgence to make an observation, that as Defence
20 counsel for Mr. Zdravko Mucic I had asked the office of
21 the Prosecution to enable a contact or interview with
22 the witness who was not under protection yesterday, to
23 be notified via the office of the Prosecution today that
24 this witness is requesting protection and is also
25 refusing to have any contact with the Defence, not with
1 the Defence of all the defendants, but specifically with
2 me, the Defence counsel of Mr. Zdravko Mucic.
3 MR. KARABDIC: Good morning, your Honour. I am Salih
4 Karabdic, attorney from Sarajevo, together with
5 Mr. Thomas Moran, attorney from Houston, I am defending
6 Mr. Hazim Delic.
7 MR. ACKERMAN: Good morning your Honours, I am John
8 Ackerman. I appear here today with my co-counsel
9 Cynthia McMurray and we appear on behalf of Mr. Esad
11 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Mr. Niemann, do you know anything about
12 Mr. Olujic's complaint?
13 MR. NIEMANN: Yes, your Honour, I will ask Ms. McHenry to
14 address the court on this matter. This witness will be
15 taken by her and in fact there is a motion being filed
16 this morning in relation to that witness which she can
17 refer to as well, your Honour. I will ask Ms. McHenry
18 to deal with that.
19 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Thank you very much.
20 MS. McHENRY: Good morning, your Honours. With respect to
21 what Olujic has said, he is correct in his observations,
22 although I do not believe there is anything improper
23 about either of them. It is the case that this witness,
24 the Prosecution had not requested protective measures
25 for the witness who is scheduled next, and yesterday
1 afternoon, late yesterday afternoon, the witness
2 indicated that he did wish certain protective measures.
3 The Prosecution believes his fears and concerns are
4 warranted and filed -- we advised Defence counsel at the
5 conclusion of court that we would be making a request
6 for protective measures which was filed first thing this
7 morning, so Mr. Olujic is correct that this witness had
8 not previously asked for protective measures and has
9 done so. It is an entirely separate matter that I did
10 receive, through someone from the Office of the
11 Prosecutor, Mr. Olujic's request and subsequently another
12 request from Defence counsel. The request of Defence
13 counsel to interview this witness was conveyed to the
14 witness, the Prosecution did not take a position on it,
15 and the witness decided that he did not wish to speak to
16 Defence counsel. I believe that has happened before on
17 many occasions and I believe it is entirely the
18 witness's own decision, so other than to say Mr. Olujic
19 has correctly stated what happened, that is correct,
20 I do not believe there is anything wrong with anything
21 that happened. If I would, I would just also use this
22 opportunity to inform your Honours that there is this
23 motion for protective measures for the upcoming
24 witness. Obviously the Prosecution apologises for the
25 fact it was not filed beforehand, but we only found out
1 about it yesterday afternoon and there are some
2 extenuating circumstances, this witness has travelled a
3 very long time and it was hard, there were some
4 difficulties beforehand which may explain why the
5 request was not made sooner. But in any event, the
6 request has been made, Defence counsel has been given
7 copies of the motion and we are happy to argue it,
8 whenever your Honours prefer. The only thing I would
9 request is that whenever it is argued, either now, in
10 closed session or at a break, or whenever your Honours
11 wish, it at least be in time enough so that I can talk
12 with the witness and tell him what the court's decision
13 is and then to the extent that the protective measures
14 are granted, explain to him a little bit about how they
15 work. Thank you.
16 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Thank you very much. Frankly, I am not
17 too familiar with why Mr. Olujic thinks anybody can
18 compel a person to speak to him. I suppose if the
19 Prosecution witness declines to talk to a Defence
20 counsel, I do not know what are our procedural rules to
21 compel him to do so. I take it that is part of the
22 hazards of meeting a Defence or any witness whatsoever
23 who does not want to co-operate with you. When he comes
24 to give his evidence, you can get whatever you want to
25 get out of him, but since the Prosecution itself is not
1 responsible for his refusal, there is nothing the Trial
2 Chamber can do about it.
3 MR. OLUJIC: If I may, your Honours, I quite understand what
4 you are saying, your Honour, but what I am surprised by,
5 as Defence counsel for Mr. Mucic, is that at the point in
6 time when I requested an interview, that was the moment
7 when the witness asked for application. Up to that
8 moment, he did not ask for protection and this provoked
9 a surprise on my part. Far from it for me to believe
10 that the Prosecution or anyone can compel a witness to
11 talk to me, but I felt it my duty to draw the attention
12 of the court to this fact, because this is a coincidence
13 which, to put it mildly, causes suspicion as regards the
14 request of the witness for protective measures but, of
15 course, we will have occasion to hear him in the
16 examination-in-chief and cross-examination and draw our
17 own conclusions. Thank you, your Honour.
18 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Thank you very much.
19 MR. MORAN: Your Honour, when will it please the court to
20 hear this motion because unlike other motions, I intend
21 to oppose this request for protection for the simple
22 reason that the Prosecutor's evidence shows that this
23 man is a rapist and a war criminal.
24 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Thank you very much. We will soon know
25 when we will take the application. This morning, we
1 will go through from now until 1.00 pm. We do not have
2 to break, so we will be able to take all the things we
3 want to do.
4 JUDGE JAN: Ms. McHenry, I think I can guess what this
5 witness says. His name has already come in the
6 transcript in the evidence of one or two witnesses.
7 MS. McHENRY: Your Honour, once again, first of all let me
8 say that I would like any discussion about the motion
9 for protective orders to be held in private session,
10 including any accusations that Defence counsel wish to
11 make. Let me also state that as is normally the case,
12 this witness is not asking -- the witness's protective
13 measures, what he is requesting, is not the fact that he
14 was at the camp and, indeed, not even the fact that he
15 worked at the camp, it is the fact that he is a witness
16 and so his identity as a witness is what he seeks
17 protection for, his face.
18 JUDGE JAN: I am just drawing your attention to the fact
19 that his name has already come in the transcript playing
20 a certain role. I have a very good guess who that
21 witness is.
22 MS. McHENRY: That is correct, your Honour and I believe it
23 is the case with almost all the protected witnesses we
24 have had that there has been some discussion in open
25 testimony about their being at Celebici. As long as
1 I have the floor, let me, if I may, respond to
2 Mr. Olujic. The request for protective measures by the
3 witness was made previous to him being informed of any
4 request by the Defence counsel, so although it is the
5 case that Defence counsel may have been told about them
6 at the same time, they are in fact unrelated and the
7 request for protective measures occurred first. Thank
8 you, your Honour.
9 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: I think let us invite the witness,
10 Mr. Panzer.
11 MS. McHENRY: Your Honours, if I may also just ask for some
12 assistance from the technical people, because
13 Mr. Turone's earphones are not working. Thank you.
14 MR. NIEMANN: In fact, your Honour, I think the earphones
15 here are not working properly either. There seems to be
16 some technical fault.
17 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: I think we might be able to take
18 argument on this motion in the afternoon when we come
20 MR. MORAN: Thank you very much, your Honour.
21 (Witness entered court)
22 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Please swear the interpreter.
23 THE INTERPRETER (sworn)
24 WOLFGANG PANZER (resworn)
25 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: You are still under cross-examination.
1 You may proceed.
2 Cross-examined by MR. O'SULLIVAN (continued)
3 Q. Thank you. Good morning, Mr. Panzer.
4 A. Good morning.
5 Q. Officer Panzer, I would like to talk a little about 18th
6 March 1996, when you said you returned to police
7 headquarters and you were there from 5.00 in the
8 afternoon until 1.30 in the morning on March 19th; is
9 that correct?
10 A. That is right.
11 Q. When you arrived at police headquarters that afternoon
12 you went directly to room 331?
13 A. Right.
14 Q. Yesterday you told us that you put the allegedly seized
15 items from Taubergasse 15, Door 10, Door 14, as well as
16 those from INDA-Bau, in a cabinet in room 331?
17 A. That is partly right. With regard to the seized items
18 from Taubergasse 15, Door 10 and Door 14, I brought them
19 to the police station and Mr. Navrat brought in the items
20 seized at INDA-Bau.
21 Q. I understood you yesterday to say that you put them, all
22 those items, in a cabinet in room 331.
23 A. That is right.
24 Q. At what time did you do that?
25 A. I really cannot remember exactly what time it was, but
1 about 5.00 pm.
2 Q. Yesterday you said, and I am quoting you:
3 "Late in the evening on 18th March I marked the
4 allegedly seized videos from Door 10."
5 Do you recall that?
6 A. That is right, the items seized at Mr. Mucic's apartment,
7 I do not know exactly what time it was, but they were
8 labelled by me that evening.
9 Q. You are saying everything from Door 10 was labelled by
10 you on the evening of the 18th; is that correct?
11 A. That is correct, yes.
12 Q. Can you help me with this, yesterday you said it was
13 late in the evening. Would that about 10.00, 11.00,
14 midnight, somewhere around there?
15 A. With regard to the labelling of the items seized at
16 Taubergasse 15, Door 10; in other words at Mr. Mucic's
17 apartment, that was done by me some time between 5.00 pm
18 and at the latest 8.00 pm.
19 Q. Can you help us out a little bit more? Was it closer to
20 8.00 perhaps?
21 A. I would say it was closer to 8.00, yes.
22 Q. From the time you put these items in the cabinet until
23 you marked these items, did they remain the whole time
24 in the cabinet?
25 A. No, they stayed in the cabinet the whole time.
1 Q. From 5.00 when you put them there until you took them
2 out to mark them they stayed in the cabinet?
3 A. All of the seized items once they were handed over were
4 put in the cabinet and all of the items from the same
5 locality were placed on the same shelf. Now perhaps
6 Mr. Bycek, Mr. Moerbaur and myself in the meantime took
7 something out, had a look at it and put it back in, but
8 they were always in there -- put it this way, I cannot
9 really say that there were in there under lock and key
10 at absolutely all times.
11 Q. When you were finished marking the videos and the items
12 from Door 10, you put them back in the cabinet?
13 A. I put them back in the box and back in the cabinet, yes.
14 Q. They were not removed after that from the cabinet?
15 A. I cannot say precisely, perhaps someone wanted to have a
16 look at something, but that would be only one of the
17 individuals present at the search, Bycek, Borlak,
18 Moerbaur, myself, I cannot really say precisely.
19 Q. The other items that are in the cabinet, other than
20 Door 10, they remained in the cabinet from the time you
21 put them there about 5.00 on the 18th until some time
22 the next day; is that correct?
23 A. They were in the cabinet. The items were always in the
24 cabinet, to put it that way.
25 Q. Yesterday you said this about the people who were in
1 room 331 on 18th March, I will just read it to you to
2 remind you and ask you a couple of questions about it.
3 You said this:
4 "On the 18th in that room, for the most part,
5 until the prisoner was handed over, the lady who was
6 interpreting, Ms. Suppert, Mr. Borlak, Mr. Moerbaur,
7 Mr. Bycek, myself, Mr. Gschwendt, who was the legal
8 advisor from the department, Mr. Navrat, who came in to
9 give me the items, I think Mr. Unger, Mr. Winkelmann were
10 in the next office writing a summary report. As
11 I remember, those were the people."
12 My question is this: those were the only people
13 who entered room 331 from 5.00 pm on 18th March until
14 1.30 in the morning the next day?
15 A. Those people were there and I think in the course of the
16 evening of the 18th there were also people from the
17 Tribunal who were there with the authority of the
18 examining magistrate, they were allowed to have a look
19 at the items seized. As to who they were, I cannot say,
20 but for that purpose items were also taken out and shown
21 to people from the Tribunal.
22 Q. Did you remain in room 331 during this whole period,
23 from 5.00 pm to 1.30 in the morning?
24 A. Not in the office itself, I was in the office most of
25 the time, I was in other rooms, I had to copy some
1 things. I had to take care of some things, I had to get
2 together and discuss certain matters with fellow
3 officers, but most of the time I was in office 331.
4 Q. Now we have a few more people showing up in room 331
5 than what we had yesterday. In addition to the police
6 officers, we have five people from the Office of the
7 Prosecutor in that office, do we not?
8 A. Could you repeat that question, please?
9 Q. Let us go back to who was in room 331 between 5.00 and
10 1.30 in the morning. There is you, correct?
11 A. From 5.00 pm, okay, yes I was there.
12 Q. During this period from 5.00 pm until 1.30 in the
13 morning on the 19th. You were there, at one point
14 Winkelmann was there --
15 A. The 18th we are talking about?
16 Q. The 18th, yes, but 1.30 in the morning on the 19th you
17 left. Your colleague Winkelmann was in and out of that
19 A. Unger and Winkelmann were there for about 20 minutes,
20 not in 331 itself, in the room next door, and they were
21 writing a corrigendum to the search document. Mr. Navrat
22 was there for a brief time, handed the things over to
23 me. Mr. Gschwendt was there occasionally, he came into
24 our office to have a look what was up. He was in charge
25 of the operation as my supervisor. Then there was the
1 legal advisor who was on duty at the time.
2 Q. Perhaps I could just do it a little more orderly, if you
3 do not mind. You say Navrat -- I will go through it
4 with you, all right?
5 A. Mr. Navrat was in the room and gave me the items seized
6 from INDA-Bau.
7 Q. Can you say yes or no? Mr. Gschwendt was there?
8 A. Mr. Gschwendt was there occasionally.
9 Q. Mr. Bycek was there?
10 A. Mr. Bycek was a member of our team and helped out in
11 preparing the relevant documentation.
12 Q. And he was in room 331?
13 A. Right.
14 Q. You said Moerbaur was in room 331?
15 A. Mr. Moerbaur, yes, certainly. Borlak and Moerbaur
16 conducted the interview with Mr. Mucic. That was later
17 on. I think that started after 7.00 pm.
18 Q. You said Mr. Winkelmann was in and out of room 331 at
19 some point?
20 A. They came into 331, but Messrs Winkelmann and Unger were
21 in the room next door. They gave me that report and
22 then they left, so they spent at most 15 to 20 minutes
23 on those premises.
24 Q. Mr. Mucic was in 331?
25 A. Mr. Mucic was sitting next to the typewriter in room 331.
1 Q. You said that Ms Lillian Suppert, the interpreter, was in
2 room 331?
3 A. Ms. Suppert came in as well. She had been notified by
4 Mr. Gschwendt in the meantime and when we came in she was
5 already in the room with Mr. Gschwendt, so she came over
6 to us.
7 Q. Then there were people from the office of the
8 Prosecution in that room, correct?
9 A. I do not know, I do not know what you mean, office of
10 the Prosecution.
11 Q. The office of the Prosecution of this Tribunal, their
12 representatives were also in room 331.
13 A. People from the Tribunal looked in. As to when that was
14 and how long they were there, I cannot say. They were
15 not in room 331, they were rather in the room next
16 door. As far as I know, Dr Seda, the examining
17 magistrate and the people from Interpol had agreed that
18 they could be present in the course of the questioning
19 and that they could also have a look at the items
20 seized. Then subsequently they were provided with
21 copies of the videotapes and of the seized documents.
22 As to whether that was Monday 18th or not I cannot say,
23 but I myself did make copies on behalf of people from
24 the Tribunal. In fact what I copied were the tapes
25 seized at the apartment of Mr. Mucic, but that was not on
1 the 18th, that was either on the 20th or the 21st,
2 I cannot really say.
3 Q. I want to deal right now with just the 18th, all right?
4 Here is my next question. On the 18th, between 5.00 and
5 1.30 in the morning, you say that the representatives of
6 the Prosecutor's office of this Tribunal were never in
7 room 331; is that correct?
8 A. They did come into that room, but they were staying, as
9 it were, in the room next door. That is where they were
10 located, as it were.
11 Q. There were five people in total from the Office of the
12 Prosecutor; is that not correct?
13 A. I do not know.
14 Q. Maybe I can help you. Do you remember a Mr. Du Toit, a
15 South African legal advisor?
16 A. I know the names, Du Toit, Nicholson, D'Hooge,
17 I remember those names. As to whether all those people
18 were in the room, in the room next door, I cannot really
19 say, I was going about other tasks.
20 Q. My question was, do you remember Mr. Du Toit, the South
21 African man who was a legal advisor? Do you remember
22 him being in room 331?
23 A. I know Mr. Du Toit first hand but I cannot say now
24 whether he was in the room or not.
25 Q. Do you remember whether Mr. Abribat the French police
1 officer was in room 331?
2 A. I only know that there were people there, but I cannot
3 recall their names.
4 Q. Maybe I can help you just one last time with Mr. D'Hooge,
5 the Belgian police officer.
6 A. D'Hooge, I know him by name and first hand, but I cannot
7 say with certainty whether he was there or not.
8 Q. If I speak his name in German, would that help you --
9 you recall speaking in German with Mr. D'Hooge?
10 A. I cannot remember.
11 Q. What time did the representatives of the Office of the
12 Prosecutor arrive that day?
13 A. I am afraid I cannot tell you, I cannot tell you when
14 they arrived, when they left. I do not know.
15 Q. You do not know when they left?
16 A. I do not know that either.
17 Q. The interview you conducted with Mr. Mucic started about
18 7.30 or 7.00 you said, is that right, the police
20 A. I think so, but that should be discernible on the basis
21 of the relevant document there, the record where on the
22 upper right-hand corner the time at which that interview
23 began should be indicated.
24 Q. To your recollection it was around 7.00 pm; is that not
1 A. I think so. As to the exact time of the interview there
2 is the record there of the interview with Mr. Mucic.
3 Q. By the time that interview with Mr. Mucic had begun the
4 representatives of the Office of the Prosecutor had
5 left; is that not correct?
6 A. I do not remember.
7 Q. The interview with Mr. Mucic took place in room 331, did
8 it not?
9 A. That is right.
10 Q. So is it not correct that the Office of the Prosecutor's
11 representatives were not in 331 at that point, they had
13 A. Basically, besides the persons directly involved there
14 was no one in the room where the interview took place;
15 that is to say room 331.
16 Q. So far we have gone over a list here and I have got
17 about 10 to 12 people in room 331 that evening. Does
18 that sound about right?
19 A. That could be right.
20 THE INTERPRETER: If the interpreter might just correct the
21 previous answer, no one remained in the room for any
22 length of time.
23 A. Now if you look at the person arrested, the interpreter,
24 Borlak, Bycek, myself, then short basis, Unger and
25 Winkelmann then in the meantime, the legal advisor,
1 Magister Famler, then on an off and on basis my
2 supervisor Mr. Gschwendt and a few people from the
3 Tribunal, that would bring you to about the stated
5 Q. Yesterday you told me there was only about seven, so it
6 has changed overnight, has it?
7 A. You are right.
8 Q. Is it not correct that in room 331 the representatives
9 of the Office of the Prosecutor were allowed to look at
10 the allegedly seized items from Door 10, Door 14 and
12 A. That is right.
13 Q. These items were placed on a table, one of the times in
14 room 331.
15 A. I think they were in the room next door on the table,
16 the seized items I took them out of the cabinet. I and
17 Mr. Moerbaur gave it to them, they had a look at it, then
18 I took it back and put it back in the cabinet.
19 Q. This took place in room 331?
20 A. No, not in room 331 but in the room next door.
21 I believe it is number 329.
22 Q. An investigator from the Office of the Prosecutor was
23 allowed to examine items, right?
24 A. As far as I know, all of the people from the Tribunal
25 had a look at these items, or had a brief look at them,
1 shall we say.
2 Q. That included the interpreter who was from the Office of
3 the Prosecutor; is that right?
4 A. I do not know who the interpreter was. I was not aware
5 who the interpreter was. I think it may have been
6 Ms. Pal, but at all events, there had been the
7 authorisation there from the examining magistrate and
8 I acted in a manner consistent with that authorisation.
9 Q. And the people from the Office of the Prosecutor
10 requested that certain documents be photocopied,
12 A. That is possible. I cannot really say as to whether
13 anything was copied or not. I only know that in the
14 following days a certain amount of material was copied
15 as well as the four videotapes and that they were handed
16 over to the people from the Tribunal, but as I said,
17 always with the accord of the examining magistrate.
18 Q. So, to your knowledge nothing was photocopied on the
19 18th between 5.00 pm and 1.30 in the morning on the next
20 day; is that correct?
21 A. I cannot say. I do not remember whether on the 18th
22 there had already been photocopies made. I simply
23 cannot remember.
24 Q. And the representatives of the Tribunal also asked to
25 view videos, is that what you said?
1 A. I know that I had a look at a video with Mr. Du Toit,
2 that I remember, but was that on the 18th? I really
3 cannot say.
4 Q. You see what you have told us here is a little bit
5 different to what your colleague Moerbaur told us when
6 he came to testify. Moerbaur said that these items were
7 spread out on a table in room 331 and the Office of the
8 Prosecutor was allowed to look at them. What do you say
9 to that?
10 A. Mr. Moerbaur, at the point in time when I was elsewhere,
11 was looking at things with people from the Tribunal in
13 Q. Both Mr. Moerbaur and Mr. D'Hooge who testified here said
14 that this took place between approximately 5.00 and 7.30
15 on the evening of 18th March 1996. What do you say to
17 A. I did not say anything else.
18 Q. So it is not correct, is it, to say that the allegedly
19 seized items remained for the most part in the cabinet
20 in room 331, as you told us earlier.
21 A. The items were locked up in the cabinet most or all of
22 the time. Of course, it does not apply to the time
23 during which the items were taken out and looked at
24 either by ourselves or the people from the Tribunal.
25 Q. Mr. Moerbaur says he photocopied some documents and
1 handed over come copies and, in fact, some originals
2 that were taken away by the Office of the Prosecutor.
3 Do you know anything about that?
4 A. I said earlier on that I cannot remember that on 18th
5 March there were copies made of documents. With regard
6 to what Mr. Moerbaur said, I cannot comment on that
8 Q. Help me understand something. Mr. Mucic was arrested
9 under an Austrian arrest warrant, correct?
10 A. The arrest warrant was issued by an Austrian court.
11 Q. And the alleged search and seizures, all of them on the
12 18th, were carried out pursuant to two Austrian search
13 warrants; is that right?
14 A. The warrants, arrest and search warrants, were issued by
15 an Austrian court and were executed in compliance with
16 Austrian law.
17 Q. So Mr. Mucic was the prisoner of the Austrian authorities
18 on the 18th; is that right?
19 A. Right.
20 Q. When you conducted a police interview with him in which
21 you participated, you were required to do so under
22 Austrian law, were you not?
23 A. That is right.
24 Q. And after the interview you were required to take
25 Mr. Mucic to jail, which you did.
1 A. That is not right. Mr. Mucic was brought to the police
2 jail only after the questioning of the interview.
3 Q. That is correct. That was required under Austrian law.
4 A. That is right. An arrested person has to be questioned
5 forthwith in connection with a case. That is in the
6 relevant legislation. If there is no basis then the
7 examining magistrate has to be informed and the person
8 can be released. As things turned out differently,
9 Mr. Mucic was handed over to the police jail at 1.30 on
10 the morning of the 19th.
11 Q. Is it also correct that under Austrian law, persons not
12 involved in operations concerning Mr. Mucic could not
13 have access to him?
14 A. Mr. Mucic was informed of his rights at the scene at the
15 moment of arrest, in the apartment by his daughter and
16 then he was informed of his rights when we arrived at
17 office 331, he was informed by Ms. Suppert. There is the
18 information sheet for arrested persons that at the time
19 was in German, but Ms. Suppert translated that word for
20 word and the rights of an arrested person are spelled
21 out there. There it says that he can notify a person of
22 his confidence, he can notify a counsel et cetera, and
23 Mr. Mucic did not make use of that possibility and that
24 is something that is confirmed in the custody report
25 where you can see his signature.
1 Q. I will repeat my question. Please listen to it and
2 please answer it. Under Austrian law, Mr. Mucic, because
3 he was your prisoner, could not be contacted the by
4 people who were not authorised to do so; is that not
6 A. Mr. Mucic at any point of time, if he had chosen to do,
7 could have notified a person of his confidence or a
8 lawyer, at any point in time.
9 Q. That is provided for in the law.
10 A. That is right.
11 Q. If there is no provision in the law for contact with
12 Mr. Mucic, no other person could contact him; is that not
14 A. That is right.
15 Q. Mr. Mucic at this point, on the 18th, was not the
16 prisoner of the authorities of this Tribunal, was he?
17 A. Mr. Mucic on the 18th was a prisoner of the Vienna police
19 Q. What is true about Mr. Mucic, contact with him by
20 unauthorised people, is also true for the allegedly
21 seized items; that is no one without legal authorisation
22 could have contact with those allegedly seized items; is
23 that correct?
24 MR. NIEMANN: I object to that, your Honour. The basis of
25 the objection, your Honour, is that the witness has
1 answered this question a number of times in saying that
2 the access by the Office of the Prosecutor to the
3 documents was authorised by Dr Seda. In my submission
4 the question has been asked and answered.
5 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: I am satisfied with the objection.
6 MR. O'SULLIVAN: I will ask this question then. Mr. Panzer,
7 did you tell the representatives of the Office of the
8 Prosecutor that Dr Seda had given his consent for them
9 to examine these allegedly seized items?
10 A. On Monday 18th March, in the morning there had been a
11 meeting at Interpol's premises, and there were present
12 there the people from the Tribunal, the people from
13 Interpol, my superior, Mr. Gschwendt and the district
14 court, and as far as I was aware on the basis of what
15 Mr. Gschwendt told me, it had been agreed that
16 representatives of the Tribunal could be present at the
17 questioning and could look at the seized items. At some
18 point in time the question cropped up about videotapes.
19 That matter, however, was not settled.
20 In response to your question, all I can say is
21 that Dr Seda gave his consent. I know that,
22 Mr. Gschwendt told me in the course of several
23 conversations, and what you have to bear in mind is that
24 at the time we were in a certain legal vacuum, as it
25 were. There was not yet the Federal Law about
1 co-operation with international tribunals. That legal
2 basis was adopted by -- at the time it was in the
3 Parliament before a specialised committee. That legal
4 basis, that is to say the law for co-operation with the
5 International Tribunal, was not adopted until 1st June
6 1996; that is to say some time after the arrest of
7 Mr. Mucic. So every step that was taken, every detail,
8 was discussed either by myself or by Mr. Gschwendt with
9 the examining magistrate.
10 Q. You say that Dr Seda gave approval, is this approval in
12 A. I do not know.
13 Q. You have never seen a document to this effect, have you?
14 A. Not a document relevant to this, no.
15 Q. A few minutes ago I asked you a very specific question,
16 I would like you to answer it now. Please listen to it,
17 it is a simple yes or no question, I think. Did you
18 tell the representatives of the Office of the Prosecutor
19 of this Tribunal that Dr Seda had agreed to allow them
20 to look at, handle and photocopy documents on 18th
22 A. No.
23 Q. Do you know whether any of your colleagues told them
25 A. I can only remember that this matter had been settled by
1 Mr. Gschwendt and Mr. Gschwendt told me that these people
2 could do that.
3 Q. You see the problem I am having, sir, is that Bart
4 D'Hooge was a witness here, you have already said he was
5 in Vienna that night, and he had this to say at
6 pages 4001 and 4002 of the transcript. He said:
7 "The police could not contact Dr Seda for
8 authorisation. It was after working hours and probably
9 Dr Seda was not in his office."
10 That is what Mr. D'Hooge said happened that night.
11 I put it to you there was never any authorisation from
12 Dr Seda on 18th March to examine documents; is that not
14 A. I cannot judge that. My superior, Mr. Gschwendt,
15 informed me that in the course of a discussion on Monday
16 morning that possibility had been discussed and that the
17 authorisation had been granted and that is all I am
18 saying about the matter.
19 Q. It comes down to your word against D'Hooge's, does it
20 not, if there are no documents?
21 A. That is right, yes.
22 Q. Okay. Let us talk a little bit about Taubergasse 15,
23 Door 10, where Mr. Mucic was brought after his arrest.
24 He did not leave Door 10 until he was brought back to
25 police headquarters around 4.30; is that right? He
1 remained at apartment 10 the whole time?
2 THE INTERPRETER: May the interpreter ask that the question
3 be repeated?
4 MR. O'SULLIVAN: Yes. From the time he was arrested and
5 brought to Door 10, Mr. Mucic did not leave that
6 apartment until he was brought back to headquarters.
7 A. Right.
8 Q. During that time his daughter Sanda was with him in the
9 apartment; is that correct?
10 A. The daughter was present in the apartment at times.
11 Q. With the assistance of the usher I would like to show --
12 I would ask that Prosecution Exhibit 151 be shown to the
13 witness. You are looking at the Niederschrift for
14 Door 10; is that correct?
15 A. That is correct.
16 Q. You see that the date typed in at the top of the
17 page and the date written in at the bottom of the
18 page are incorrect?
19 A. 19/3/96, that is written by the typewriter, yes.
20 Q. Down below by hand it says 19th March and those dates
21 are wrong because you say this search took place on the
22 18th; is that not correct?
23 A. The arrest and the house search took place on the 18th
24 March 1996. The explanation for the wrong date --
25 Q. Are the dates wrong or not? Yes or no?
1 A. On this document the dates are wrong.
2 Q. And the bottom line where the time should be filled in,
3 nothing is indicated; is that right?
4 A. That is right, there is nothing there.
5 Q. You signed this document.
6 A. I signed the document, that is correct.
7 Q. And you read it before you signed it; is that correct?
8 A. That is correct.
9 Q. Under Austrian law is there not a report, a Bericht of
10 this house search which is prepared immediately after
11 that document as required by law?
12 A. That is correct, the report, yes, that comes after.
13 Q. And in the case of Door 10, no such document was ever
14 prepared, was it?
15 A. The report was produced in connection with the arrest
17 Q. But there is no -- in the police file, there is no such
18 Bericht, house search; none was prepared; is that not
20 A. I have the report here, I can show it to the counsel if
21 he so wishes.
22 Q. The typed in parts of this Niederschrift, you told us,
23 were prepared before the search of Door 10 by your
24 colleague Bycek; is that right?
25 A. Correct. As we have already said on a number of
1 occasions the operation was supposed to be carried out
2 on the 19th at 6.00 am.
3 Q. Could you look at the second page where the confiscated
4 are there? They are typed in, are they not?
5 A. Yes, I can see.
6 Q. So that was typed in before the search?
7 A. This inventory of the seized items was produced by
8 Mr. Bycek in the office after the operation.
9 Q. And Mr. Mucic also signed this document in the office,
10 not on the premises; is that right?
11 A. In the apartment, as far as I remember, he signed the
12 search warrant and the arrest warrant and the paper 150
13 was signed by him at police headquarters.
14 Q. And this paper 150, the Niederschrift, is the only
15 document that is prepared on the spot to show what has
16 been seized, and the witness confirms that; is that
18 A. In his apartment, Door 10. We only have here who was in
19 his apartment, who took part in the search at apartment
20 10. The rest was done by Mr. Bycek at headquarters.
21 Q. I would like to talk a bit about INDA-Bau. The search
22 there took place on 18th March; is that right?
23 A. That is correct.
24 Q. Could I ask that the witness be shown D57/1, please?
25 (Handed). This is the report you prepared on April
1 22nd 1996; is that correct?
2 A. That is correct.
3 MR. O'SULLIVAN: I move to have this document admitted, your
4 Honour, admitted into evidence. It is D57/1, I move to
5 have it admitted.
6 MR. NIEMANN: Your Honour, might I have a look at the
7 document, please? We seem to have some trouble locating
8 our copy. May I see the witness's copy? (Handed).
9 I have no objection.
10 MR. O'SULLIVAN: Sir, this is the report that you prepared in
11 connection with the alleged search at INDA-Bau; is that
13 A. It is an inventory of seized items. That is the report,
15 Q. In this report you make reference to twelve files.
16 A. Correct.
17 Q. You note that there are 54 cassettes, video cassettes;
18 is that right?
19 A. Correct.
20 Q. I ask that the witness be shown Prosecution Exhibit 165
21 and 165A. Do you recognise that as the Niederschrift
22 prepared in connection with INDA-Bau?
23 A. Yes, that is the Niederschrift, paper 150, that
24 Mr. Navrat filled in and gave to me.
25 Q. And the date at the top is incorrect; March 19th is the
1 wrong date, is it not?
2 A. 19th March is on the Niederschrift and it is wrong, that
3 is right.
4 Q. At the bottom where the date should go there is a blank;
5 is that correct?
6 A. Yes, it was not filled in.
7 Q. And the time is not indicated at the bottom either?
8 A. That is right too.
9 Q. And the line where the names of the police officers
10 should go at the top, all we have is numbers; is that
12 A. That is correct. It is a possibility in Austria that
13 you write in your service number, so that you can take
14 precautions against any claims that might be made later
15 on. I think the number is Mr. Navrat, 1021 and the
16 others are for people from the 16th District.
17 Q. We are looking at this document, we have no idea who
18 these people are, to whom the numbers refer; is that not
20 A. It is not necessary. It is enough that you put the
21 service number in.
22 Q. I did not ask if it was necessary. I said there is no
23 way of knowing who these people are, is that not
24 correct, from looking at this document?
25 MR. NIEMANN: I object to that your Honour. That is
1 misrepresentation of the position.
2 MR. O'SULLIVAN: I will ask the witness this: is it possible
3 to make any connection between the numbers and the
4 police officers who may have conducted the search by
5 looking at this document?
6 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Actually, if I understand what the
7 witness is saying, he is saying you can identify them by
8 their service numbers. This is what he is saying.
9 Although their names are not there, their service number
10 is there.
11 MR. O'SULLIVAN: Going back to your report, the previous
12 document we looked at, you said that there were 54
13 videos coming from INDA-Bau; is that right?
14 A. That is correct.
15 Q. In this Niederschrift it says there are 51; is that
17 A. That is what it says, yes.
18 Q. Can I ask that the witness be shown Exhibit D56/1?
19 (Handed). Sir, you are looking at a report dated March
20 18th 1996 prepared by Navrat. Have you seen this
22 A. That is the report on the house search that Mr. Navrat
23 carried out in Koppstrasse 14 in the 16th District on
24 18th March. I know this report.
25 Q. In this report it says there are 51 videos.
1 A. That is correct, that is what it says.
2 Q. You claim that you marked these videos or these videos
3 were marked for the first time by you on 19th March; is
4 that right?
5 A. It was on the 19th or the 20th that I marked the videos,
7 Q. In fact everything coming from INDA-Bau was unmarked
8 until you marked on the 19th or 20th; is that right?
9 A. Correct.
10 Q. And the first indication of the change in number of
11 videos is 22nd April, in your report.
12 A. That is correct.
13 Q. With the assistance of the usher I would like to have a
14 document shown to the witness. I have copies for
15 your Honours and the Prosecution.
16 THE REGISTRAR: The document is marked D64/1.
17 MR. O'SULLIVAN: Sir, you are looking at a report prepared by
18 you on April 22nd 1996; is that not correct?
19 A. Correct.
20 MR. O'SULLIVAN: I move to have this document admitted into
21 evidence, your Honour.
22 MR. NIEMANN: No objections, your Honour.
23 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: It is admitted.
24 MR. O'SULLIVAN: This is a report you prepared in connection
25 with Taubergasse 15, Door 14; is that right?
1 A. Correct.
2 Q. In this report you note that there are 28 video
3 cassettes, right?
4 A. Correct.
5 Q. You prepared this document in part based on the
6 Niederschrift which was prepared by Unger and
7 Winkelmann; is that right?
8 A. Correct. It is just an inventory, this document, a list
9 of the things that were listed, that we made an
10 inventory of. Nothing else.
11 Q. With the help of the usher I have another document to
12 show the witness, please. There you have a copy of the
13 Niederschrift prepared by Winkelmann and Unger prepared
14 in connection with Door 14; is that correct?
15 A. Yes, I know this Niederschrift as well.
16 MR. O'SULLIVAN: This is document 65 --
17 THE REGISTRAR: D65/1.
18 MR. O'SULLIVAN: At this time I move to have this document
19 admitted into evidence, your Honour. Is the document so
20 admitted, your Honour?
21 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Yes.
22 MR. O'SULLIVAN: Thank you. The search of Door 14 took place
23 on 18th March, right?
24 A. On 18th March, that is correct.
25 Q. So the typed in date of 19th March at the top and the
1 handwritten date of 19th March at the bottom are both
2 wrong, are they not?
3 A. That is correct.
4 Q. On the second page the record indicates that Sanda Mucic
5 was the witness to this alleged search and seizure; is
6 that right?
7 A. Correct.
8 Q. And yesterday we established by looking at documents
9 that she was only 16 years old; is that right?
10 A. According to what the birth date says, yes, she was 16.
11 Q. At Taubergasse 15 that day the brother of Zejnil
12 Delalic, Dzemal Delalic, was present, was he not?
13 A. That is correct.
14 Q. Yesterday you told us that the sister-in-law of Zejnil
15 Delalic, Harisa was also present that day at Taubergasse
17 A. Yes, during the afternoon she was at Taubergasse 15.
18 Q. Sir, you are familiar with Article 142, paragraph 2 of
19 the Code of Criminal Procedure, are you not?
20 A. Which says that if the owner of the premises is not
21 available --
22 MR. NIEMANN: Object, your Honour. Criminal procedure of
23 what country: China, Japan, Austria?
24 MR. O'SULLIVAN: Pardon me, your Honour, I will rephrase that
25 question. The code of procedure of Austria, the one
1 under which you operate. Article 142(2) says that if
2 the owner of the premises is not present then an adult
3 member of his family shall be present or a fellow
4 lodger, neighbour, if members of the family are not
5 there. Those are the people who must witness a search;
6 is that not correct?
7 A. I know this paragraph, yes.
8 Q. In all cases must be an adult; is that right?
9 A. The paragraph stipulates that it has to be an adult,
10 that is right, adult member of the family.
11 Q. Going back to your report, there you list 28 videos and
12 in the Niederschrift there are 30 videos; is that right?
13 A. Correct.
14 Q. We have heard from you, and in fact every other Viennese
15 police officer who has testified here, that the items
16 seized from Taubergasse 15 and the items seized at
17 INDA-Bau were brought back in containers that were not
18 sealed. Under the Austrian code of criminal procedure,
19 Article 145, paragraph 3 states the following:
20 "The documents which are to be used in judicial
21 proceedings and which cannot be promptly recorded shall
22 be put in an envelope and sealed with an official seal.
23 The person whose documents are being searched shall be
24 allowed, if that person is present during the search, to
25 put his own seal on the envelope. If the seal should be
1 broken the person whose documents were searched shall be
2 invited to attend. In the event that the person
3 receives the summons and fail to appear, or if the
4 summons could not be served on that person on the
5 grounds of his absence, the seal shall nevertheless be
7 Are you familiar with this provision?
8 A. That is correct.
9 Q. This article deals with sealing seized items on the spot
10 to preserve evidence, does it not?
11 A. That is what it says in this paragraph, yes.
12 Q. You are familiar with this paragraph, you said?
13 A. Yes, I know the paragraph.
14 Q. Police officers in your division who carry out searches
15 and are made aware of this provision through their
16 training and experience, are they not?
17 A. Yes, they also know these paragraphs.
18 Q. Could I ask that the witness be shown several documents,
19 have them placed in front of him. D64/1, D65/1 and
20 Prosecution Exhibit 104. (Handed).
21 MR. NIEMANN: Your Honours, might I know what is being placed
22 before the witness. I know it was D64/1, but were there
23 other documents as well?
24 MR. O'SULLIVAN: D64/1, D65/1 and Prosecution Exhibit 104.
25 Officer Panzer, could I ask you to look first at
1 the Niederschrift for Door 14, which is one of the two
2 documents on your left. Do you have that document?
3 A. Yes. You mean the Niederschrift?
4 Q. Yes, which has been marked as D65/1.
5 A. Yes, I can see that.
6 Q. I draw your attention to the list of items listed in
7 that Niederschrift. Nowhere in that list do you see
8 reference to a green folder, do you, in the
9 Niederschrift? Yes or no?
10 A. No, I see no reference.
11 Q. Can I ask you to look at D64/1 which is the other
12 document to your left? That is dated March 18th 1996,
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. It is signed by Unger and Winkelmann?
16 A. Yes, by Mr. Unger and Mr. Winkelmann.
17 Q. You have seen this document before, have you?
18 A. Yes, I received the document in my office at the
19 headquarters after we came in. It may have been in
20 Taubergasse 15 that Mr. Winkelmann gave me the document.
21 MR. O'SULLIVAN: I would just like to confirm with the
22 Registry that this document has been admitted.
23 THE REGISTRAR: Yes.
24 MR. O'SULLIVAN: If you look at this document, there you see
25 no reference to a green folder at all, do you.
1 A. No, there is no reference to a green folder, that is
3 Q. The document you are looking at is the second document
4 or the one that is prepared after the Niederschrift, is
5 that right, in the succession of documents?
6 A. Counsel, what do you mean by second document? You mean
7 the report of 22nd April 1996?
8 Q. Moving chronologically, the Niederschrift is the first,
9 the report of the 18th is the second.
10 A. The report basically has nothing to do with the
11 Niederschrift, it is just a list of the seized items so
12 that the investigating magistrate can understand what
13 happened when he gets the seized items --
14 Q. I am just asking you, it is the second document that is
15 prepared. After the Niederschrift comes the report of
16 18th March; is that correct?
17 MR. NIEMANN: Your Honours, I am sorry to interrupt, but I am
18 having difficulty following this because I have been
19 given a document 22nd April which in my understanding
20 was D64/1. It may well be that we are allocated the
21 wrong number, but the document I have as D64/1, as
22 I understand it, is 22nd April. Perhaps we could
23 clarify this? I assume there is another document but
24 I do not know what it is.
25 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: I think that is the document "Vienna
1 police main office, Division 1".
2 MR. NIEMANN: Yes, 22nd April. Counsel keeps referring to
3 18th March and I am having trouble following that, your
5 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Mr. O'Sullivan, which are you actually
6 referring to? Let us have our bearings right, because
7 D64/1 I have is a report.
8 MR. NIEMANN: I think also counsel said it was executed by
9 Winkelmann and others and this document appears to be
10 executed by Mr. Panzer.
11 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: By Officer Panzer, yes.
12 MR. O'SULLIVAN: Apologies, your Honour. The document I am
13 referring to has not yet been shown to the witness.
14 I ask that it be shown to him.
15 MR. NIEMANN: Perhaps I might see it too. (Handed).
16 MR. O'SULLIVAN: My apologies to the court.
17 THE REGISTRAR: This document will be marked D66/1.
18 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Without interfering with your train of
19 thought, actually what are you trying to bring out,
20 because it is easier to get to this directly without
21 going into more documents.
22 MR. O'SULLIVAN: The reason the Prosecution has led
23 Exhibit 104 is to show that Moerbaur had a system in
24 processing documents. I want to review that system with
25 this witness. I will be brief.
1 MR. NIEMANN: Your Honour, the copy I have been given
2 apparently is the only copy. It is not in English. Is
3 there an English version of it, might I ask for that and
4 might I ask for a copy myself?
5 MR. O'SULLIVAN: We can easily provide an English
6 translation. There is one, I believe, which was
7 provided by the Office of the Prosecutor to us.
8 MR. NIEMANN: Perhaps you might tell us the reference to it
9 and we can get to it quickly.
10 MR. O'SULLIVAN: If not, I am sure we can provide one very
12 MR. NIEMANN: I would ask to be given a translation or a
13 reference to it before any questioning continues.
14 MR. O'SULLIVAN: If that is the case, your Honour, I would
15 have to ask for a break until after lunch with your
17 JUDGE JAN: If you also give copies to us.
18 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: I think you will have to circulate
19 copies by the time we resume.
20 MR. MORAN: Your Honour, before we break, there is a short
21 administrative matter I have. As the court is aware,
22 Mr. Delic has back problems. The security people are
23 prepared to take him to be seen by a physician at the
24 lunch break, but I have been informed that it may be as
25 late as 2.00 before they can get him back here. I know
1 that the Trial Chamber is going to hear this request for
2 protection at 2.30. If he should be running a few
3 minutes late, we would ask just for a short -- I will
4 waive his presence for that argument, but we might ask
5 for a short break, maybe five or ten minutes. He is in
6 some pretty substantial pain right now.
7 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: We will go for a break now, so that we
8 will be back at the same time, at 2.30, and I hope those
9 arrangements can be made to fit within the period.
10 MR. MORAN: Yes, your Honour. Your Honour, while I am
11 thinking about it, there has been plenty of times people
12 have stood up at these microphones and complained about
13 security and complained about the Registry. Well now it
14 is my chance to thank them very much publicly. They are
15 doing a good job in terms of taking care of my client in
16 this matter.
17 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: I suppose that is what they are
18 expected to do.
19 MR. MORAN: Your Honour, I think they are going the extra
21 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: The compliment should go round.
22 JUDGE JAN: To the Registrar. I am sure she will be very
23 happy to hear about that.
24 (12.45 pm)
25 (Adjourned until 2.30 pm)
13 Pages 6598 to 6620 in closed session
1 (3.15 pm)
2 (A short break)
3 (3.30 pm)
4 (In open session)
5 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Because of the urgency of the
6 situation, and the fact that the witness should soon be
7 called --
8 MR. ACKERMAN: Excuse me, your Honour, I do not know whether
9 you intend to be in public session or not.
10 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Yes, it is. The Trial Chamber has
11 decided to give its ruling on the arguments relating to
12 the protection of Witness T. We have considered the
13 arguments that he should have no protection whatsoever
14 and the arguments why that should be, but we have
15 finally come to the conclusion that despite the fact
16 that he has been mentioned by some other witnesses in
17 earlier testimony, he still requires a certain amount of
18 protection. With respect to the provisional measures
19 for protection, we try to balance under Rule 75 the
20 rights of the accused persons and that of the witness
22 The argument has been that it will be unfair to
23 enable him to have his evidence in private so that the
24 cross-examination of him and his notoriety, they are
25 saying that would not be disclosed, but if one read the
1 relief requested, you will find that at paragraph 6 the
2 Prosecution is asking that this witness shall be given
3 in open sessions at which only image altering devices
4 will be employed to prevent his image being seen by the
5 public or the media. This is what the Prosecution is
6 asking. I think we will grant that unreservedly.
7 Accompanying that, they have also asked that a
8 pseudonym should be used whenever this witness is
9 referred to in his capacity as a witness in the present
10 proceedings before this Trial Chamber and in discussions
11 among parties to the trial. I think this is the
12 practice in all protective measures and we grant also
13 that request.
14 But there are some areas where we think we could
15 not agree with the request of the Prosecution. While we
16 agree that the name, address and country of residence
17 whereabouts and other identifying information could be
18 accepted and protected, we do not think that we should
19 include protection of his duties while assigned to the
20 Celebici prison camp in 1992. That is not protected.
21 I think there is nothing stopping counsel referring to
22 his duties in the Celebici prison camp at the relevant
23 period. Our view also affects and limits the request in
24 paragraph 2, where also the question of including his
25 duties while assigned to the Celebici prison camp is
2 We approve that the public and media shall not
3 photograph or video record or sketch the Witness T while
4 he is in the presence of the International Tribunal, but
5 as in all other cases we consider that wherever the
6 evidence of Witness T is likely to affect other persons
7 who ought to be protected, then the Tribunal can go into
8 closed session for that purpose, not necessarily because
9 it is his evidence, but in protection of other persons
10 who need not be exposed.
11 We do not accept paragraph 3 as it stands because
12 although we accept that his pseudonym should be accorded
13 him and that is all he should be known by as a witness
14 in these proceedings. Paragraph 4 also is accepted and
15 approved, that the documents of this Tribunal
16 identifying the witness shall not be disclosed to the
17 public or to the media. This is in protection of the
18 general measures protecting the accused.
19 We agree with the arguments of the Defence that it
20 is unnecessary to make any other in respect of the
21 prospective return of his parents to Konjic, because it
22 is a type of protection which might not be easily
24 I think we have covered the ground. It is a pity
25 we have to do this in a hurry, but we will try and
1 perhaps in future put it in writing so it will be very
2 clear to everyone. We do not intend to delay the
3 proceedings, keeping everybody waiting before a
4 particular decision was arrived at.
5 As I have just said, the proceedings and the
6 testimony will be in open session except in those cases
7 where the testimony affects persons who are to be
8 protected, but for his protection, Witness T shall be
9 given image altering devices to prevent his easy
10 recognition by the public or the media.
11 This is our ruling.
12 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honour, I just want to apologise for
13 interrupting you at the beginning of your ruling, but
14 I just wanted to make sure that everyone understood that
15 we had switched from private to public session before
16 something got in the record that none of us intended to
17 be there. I apologise for interrupting you. I know
18 that is inappropriate.
19 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: That is all right. We knew we were
20 getting into public session.
21 MR. ACKERMAN: Out of an abundance of caution, I wanted
22 everybody to know we had changed.
23 MR. GREAVES: I wonder if I could pick up on something your
24 Honour has just said about having these decisions to be
25 made at short notice? I think all of us are somewhat
1 troubled by the number of witnesses who are coming at
2 the very last moment and asking for protective
3 measures. It must be inconvenient for the Prosecution
4 who have to run around getting a motion for that
5 witness. It puts us at a disadvantage, because these
6 things tend to be made orally, and I suspect it puts
7 your Honours at a disadvantage having to make decisions
8 of this kind again at very short notice.
9 Might I suggest to the Prosecution that before
10 witnesses travel, they make a final enquiry, "Are there
11 any protective measures that you require?", and tell
12 them that they will only be granted protective measures
13 if they ask for them on the morning they give evidence
14 only in very exceptional circumstances.
15 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Thank you very much. Actually we, too,
16 are a little worried. We got this application only
17 today, this morning, and we had so many other things to
18 do. From what we now hear the witness is expected to
19 return by the weekend, and if one kept the decision to a
20 later date, then he will have to go back and come back
21 again, so we decided to give the ruling now to enable
22 him to carry on with his evidence, if possible.
23 MR. GREAVES: Of course. I was just trying to be conscious
24 of the difficulties everyone gets put in by these things
25 which are done at short notice. I am not, I hasten to
1 add, criticising the Prosecution in any way for this.
2 It comes as a surprise to them as it comes to us.
3 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: So we will now continue with the
4 witness. Can we have the witness, please?
5 MS. McHENRY: Your Honours, may I have your permission to
6 be excused now to speak with the witness about
7 your Honours' decision?
8 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Yes, you can do so.
9 MS. McHENRY: Thank you.
10 MR. MORAN: Your Honour, while they are getting the witness,
11 can I just point out that all the defendants remained in
12 the courtroom during the last break. I think because it
13 was such a short break, just to remind the court that it
14 has been the policy that at about 4.00 we break so the
15 defendants can use the restroom if they need to and
16 other such things.
17 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: We will still break at 4.00.
18 MR. MORAN: I know that is break after break and I apologise
19 to the court for that happening. Like I say, the
20 defendants really need a break and they did not get one.
21 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: It is the spasmodic way in which things
22 are going on.
23 MR. MORAN: Your Honour, things just happen sometimes.
24 (Witness entered court)
25 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Can you tell him he is still under
1 oath? You need not swear him again.
2 THE REGISTRAR: Mr. Panzer, may I remind you you are still
3 under oath.
4 WOLFGANG PANZER (continued)
5 Cross-examined by MR. O'SULLIVAN (continued)
6 Q. Thank you your Honour. I apologise once again for the
7 confusion I caused this morning and for your indulgence,
8 although my colleagues were grateful for the extended
9 lunch, I think.
10 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: You may proceed.
11 MR. O'SULLIVAN: Thank you. Officer Panzer, you have before
12 you a document marked D65/1. That is the Niederschrift
13 for Door 14 at Taubergasse 15. Do you recognise this
15 A. I recognise it.
16 Q. I would like to direct your attention to the second
17 page where the items are listed. Do you have that page?
18 A. I can see it, yes.
19 Q. The first item is 30 video cassettes, then various
20 photos, notes, documents, two berets, one military
21 trouser, one military sweater and one black sports bag,
23 A. Correct.
24 Q. So there is no reference to a green folder, is there?
25 A. No, there is no reference here to a green folder.
1 Q. With the assistance of the usher, I would like to have
2 the witness shown a document, please? There is a copy
3 for the Prosecution as well as your Honours. (Handed).
4 THE REGISTRAR: The document is marked D66/1.
5 MR. O'SULLIVAN: Officer Panzer, you have before you a report
6 dated 18th March 1996 which was prepared by your
7 colleagues Unger and Winkelmann in connection with
8 Door 14 at Taubergasse 15. Do you recognise this
10 A. I recognise it, yes.
11 MR. O'SULLIVAN: I move to have this document admitted into
12 evidence, your Honours.
13 MR. NIEMANN: No objection.
14 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: It is admitted.
15 MR. O'SULLIVAN: Thank you. This is the report we have just
16 established, prepared by Unger and Winkelmann in
17 connection with the search and seizure of Taubergasse
18 15, Door 14, right?
19 A. Right.
20 Q. This is the first report that follows the Niederschrift,
22 A. Right.
23 Q. There is no intervening report between this report and
24 the Niederschrift; is that right?
25 A. Following the search there is a report drawn up about
1 the search, less the 150 document, the Niederschrift.
2 Q. If you look through this report, you will see there is
3 no reference to a green folder, is there?
4 A. That is right.
5 Q. I believe the witness has beside him Prosecution
6 Exhibit 104. Officer Panzer, you are looking there at
7 the exhibit that has been entered into evidence as
8 Prosecution Exhibit 104. For your convenience, there is
9 a small yellow tag placed at the top of the binder.
10 Would you open the binder at that point? You have
11 before you a two page document dated 22nd April 1996,
12 and the second page is signed by you and your colleague
13 Bycek, do you see that?
14 A. Right.
15 MR. NIEMANN: Can we be told the page?
16 MR. O'SULLIVAN: I believe the problem is that in the German
17 original each individual report has its own separate
18 numbering system and there is no complete numbering
19 system from 1 to whatever it is. That is the Moerbaur
21 MR. NIEMANN: If my friend has a reference to the number of
22 the translation page, that might help.
23 MR. O'SULLIVAN: I am sorry, I do not.
24 Officer Panzer, this report of 22nd April 1996 was
25 prepared by you and Bycek in connection with
1 Taubergasse 15, Door 14; is that correct?
2 MR. NIEMANN: Your Honours, it is really quite impossible for
3 me to follow what is going on if the witness is being
4 shown an exhibit and I do not know where it is. I need
5 some assistance to be shown what he is talking about.
6 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: I think we will rise for the break, so
7 between now and 4.30, you should be able to sort out
8 some of your problems by the time we come back.
9 (4.00 pm)
10 (A short break)
11 (4.35 pm)
12 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: I hope you are in good company now.
13 MR. O'SULLIVAN: Yes, thank you.
14 Officer Panzer, we are looking at Prosecution
15 Exhibit 104, but before going back to that exhibit we
16 have looked at two documents before the break. There is
17 the Niederschrift for Door 14, and the report for
18 Door 14, the report being 18th March 1996, and we have
19 established that there is no reference to a green
20 folder. Do you recall that?
21 A. That is correct, counsel.
22 Q. I have directed you to the German version of
23 Exhibit 104, and the page, the stamp on the page you
24 will see is 00487859. Do you see that?
25 A. Yes, I have that in front of me.
1 MR. O'SULLIVAN: For your Honours, the English of Exhibit 104
2 is on page 7.
3 This is a two page document, this report, which
4 was signed by both you and your colleague Bycek,
6 A. That is correct.
7 Q. This is the document which follows in chronological
8 order the previous document regarding the alleged search
9 and seizure of Door 14; is that correct?
10 A. Yes, you can put it that way.
11 Q. I direct your attention to the first page where for the
12 first time we see reference to one green folder; do you
13 see that?
14 A. Yes, I see it.
15 Q. Then there is a parenthesis after the one green folder,
16 and that refers, does it not, to the contents of that
18 A. Correct.
19 Q. I would like to read you part of that phrase that is in
20 the parenthesis, it says:
21 "INDA-Sond and INDA-Bau company documents, legal
22 documents, powers of attorney."
23 Do you see that?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. You also see a reference to this green folder being
1 identified as D-4.
2 A. Correct, I can see that too.
3 Q. It is also correct that as we were working our way
4 through these documents, from the Niederschrift to the
5 second one I showed you to this one, we are getting more
6 and more detail in this case about what was seized at
7 Door 14, is that correct?
8 A. That is correct.
9 Q. For instance now we have for the first time a green
10 folder with contents which is called D-4, am I correct?
11 A. Correct.
12 Q. I would ask you to move to the next document which is in
13 that binder, which is part of Prosecution Exhibit 104,
14 the page in the German version is 00487861, and in
15 English it is page 8 of Prosecution Exhibit 104. Have
16 you found that document, Officer Panzer?
17 A. Yes, I have found it.
18 Q. You are looking at the report, evaluation dated
19 22nd April 1996, which is signed by you, Bycek and
20 Moerbaur; is that correct?
21 A. Correct.
22 Q. This evaluation, this report, was prepared in connection
23 with Taubergasse 15, Door 14?
24 A. That is correct.
25 Q. On the first page of that document, we see D-4, do you
1 see that?
2 A. I can see it.
3 Q. Followed by one green folder.
4 A. I can see it.
5 Q. And this refers to the same green folder which was
6 identified as D-4 in the previous document we looked at;
7 is that right?
8 A. Correct.
9 Q. Here in parenthesis we see the words "notes, papers,
10 letters, copies et cetera, see separate evaluation
11 report enclosed with entries 1 to 27"; do you see that?
12 A. That is correct, I can see it.
13 Q. In this particular document we no longer have the words
14 "INDA-Sond and INDA-Bau company documents, legal
15 documents, powers of attorney"; is that correct?
16 A. That is correct.
17 Q. I ask you now to turn to the next document in that
18 binder, Exhibit 104, the page in the German version is
19 00487868; in English is page 12 of Exhibit 104.
20 A. Yes, I have found it.
21 Q. You are looking at the evaluation headed D-4, do you see
23 A. Yes, I can see it.
24 Q. This document was prepared by your colleague Moerbaur.
25 A. All the documents concerning these papers for all the
1 house searches were looked at and analysed by
2 Mr. Moerbaur.
3 Q. You will see a reference at the top of the page, top of
4 the first page, that the green folder is entitled mail,
5 do you see that?
6 A. I can see it.
7 Q. And there is reference there to Taubergasse 15,
8 Door 14.
9 A. That is correct.
10 Q. This is the same green folder we have been following
11 along, have we not, through the documents?
12 A. I do not know, I could not say.
13 Q. If we back up one document, the document at
14 page 00487861 in the German language and page 8 in
15 English,, at D-4, one green folder, we are directed to
16 see the evaluation report enclosed with entries 1 to 27,
18 A. That is what it says, yes.
19 Q. If you turn back to the document D-4 at page 00487868 in
20 German, and page 12 in English, this document has 27
21 entries, correct?
22 A. That is correct.
23 Q. So this is the document that we are directed to to find
24 the evaluation of the same green folder, is it not?
25 A. I do not know what you expect me to say to that, because
1 in my opinion, as far as the green folder is concerned,
2 Mr. Moerbaur or myself brought it in so that all these
3 different pieces of paper could be collected in a single
4 folder and be labelled in that way. I cannot really say
5 any more about this green folder.
6 Q. So you do not know if we are now talking about the same
7 green folder; is that correct?
8 A. In the seizure report there is no reference to the green
9 folder, it is true, but it could be we used it at
10 headquarters for the labelling process, I do not know.
11 It is the sort of thing that we have here, for example,
12 from the Chancery. It could be that the green folder
13 was something that we had. If you show it to me I can
14 probably tell you if it is ours or not.
15 Q. So Mr. Moerbaur's system is quite confusing and difficult
16 to work with, is it not?
17 A. Mr. Moerbaur looked at the papers and wrote his report
18 about them.
19 Q. Now you are unable to find them; is that right?
20 A. Correct.
21 Q. If we look at the 27 entries, nowhere can you find a
22 reference to INDA-Sond and INDA-Bau company documents,
23 legal documents or powers of attorney, can you?
24 A. What is it exactly you are asking, counsel?
25 Q. If you look at this document, D-4 evaluation,
1 page 00487868 in the German language.
2 JUDGE JAN: 86?
3 MR. O'SULLIVAN: In the German language it is stamped
4 00487868. My question to you, Officer Panzer, is that
5 nowhere in this document can you find any reference to
6 documents, namely INDA-Sond and INDA-Bau company
7 documents, legal documents and powers of attorney, the
8 ones that were allegedly in the green folder marked
10 A. I can give you an explanation on that matter.
11 Q. Could you answer my question, please? You cannot find
12 those references in here, can you?
13 A. In the seizure record --
14 Q. Sir, please answer my question first.
15 MR. NIEMANN: Your Honour, I object to this. This is a very
16 complicated process. The witness is trying to assist
17 the best way he can. He is saying he would like to give
18 an explanation so he can give an answer and my friend
19 keeps saying "give me an answer, yes or no". In my
20 submission, your Honours, there is probably no way it
21 can be answered yes or no. He needs to explain the
22 position and he should be permitted to do so, your
24 JUDGE JAN: What he is really asking is there is no
25 reference to a power of attorney in these documents. He
1 will probably take some time in going through the
2 documents, so let him take his time.
3 MR. NIEMANN: He has already asked for a copy of the green
4 folder. If he was given that it might assist the whole
6 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: There are some of your questions which
7 might not be a yes or no answer, because there might
8 still be other arguments before you get to an answer.
9 MR. O'SULLIVAN: Very well, your Honour, but I submit the
10 question I put to you, Officer Panzer, was quite
11 simple. I asked him if he found in this last document
12 any reference to INDA-Sond and INDA-Bau company
13 documents, legal documents and powers of attorney which
14 have been identified in the earlier documents.
15 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Perhaps he has not been following it as
16 much as you have.
17 MR. O'SULLIVAN: The Prosecution has tendered this document
18 as proof of Moerbaur's indexing system and evaluation
19 and I am just asking this witness as his colleague, as
20 an intelligent human being, whether he can follow what
21 Moerbaur did.
22 MR. NIEMANN: I do not understand, if I may raise a point,
23 your Honour, I do not understand what the question
24 relates to in view of an entry towards the end of it.
25 I do not want to put words in the witness's mouth, but
1 towards the end there are entries like that. I do not
2 know what he is talking about.
3 MR. O'SULLIVAN: Let us try it this way, Officer Panzer.
4 This is evaluation, D-4 --
5 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Is it your effort to find fault with
6 the indexing? If that is the case, why do you not put
7 it to him?
8 MR. O'SULLIVAN: I will put it to you this way: this
9 document D-4 evaluation is the most detailed account of
10 the contents of the green folder D-4 that we have been
11 following: is that right?
12 A. That is correct. I could imagine what you are driving
13 at, counsel, but I have always said that I did not have
14 anything to do with any of these papers. The evaluation
15 and analysis of these papers was performed by
16 Mr. Moerbaur. I did the labelling.
17 JUDGE JAN: Mr. O'Sullivan, there were twelve folders
18 allegedly recovered from INDA-Bau. Maybe it will be
19 found in one of those twelve folders.
20 MR. O'SULLIVAN: Your Honour, D-4 is Door 14 at Taubergasse
21 15. The documents to which I am referring have been
22 described in the green folder at an earlier stage in the
23 documentation, so I am asking in the final document, the
24 most detailed one --
25 JUDGE JAN: There is no reference to the power of attorney.
1 That is your case?
2 MR. O'SULLIVAN: Yes.
3 JUDGE JAN: You want to show that Mr. Delalic had nothing to
4 do with INDA-Bau.
5 MR. O'SULLIVAN: No, my point is that documents have
6 disappeared that are no longer in the green folder.
7 That appears to be the case, does it not, Officer
8 Panzer? We can no longer find reference to the INDA-Bau
9 company documents, legal documents or power of attorney?
10 A. Counsel, in the last sentence of this document by
11 Mr. Moerbaur, it says:
12 "In the folder there are various papers,
13 certificates and other papers that were put in on
14 24th April", other papers concerning the army, the IV
15 Corps, for example.
16 Where the other papers are, if you are asking me
17 that, whether 859 are supposed to be in the folder D-4,
18 I can say that Mr. Moerbaur has written on the last
19 page of 870 all the papers that were not analysed had
20 nonetheless been in the green folder. That is all I can
21 say about that.
22 Q. Let me ask you to turn to page 00487884. There is a
23 yellow sticker already at that page. Have you found
24 that document?
25 A. I have found it, yes.
1 Q. It is page 22 in the English version of Prosecution
2 Exhibit 104. This document is entitled I/1, correct?
3 A. Counsel, this document was written by Mr. Moerbaur. He
4 drafted it. I did not add a single line, sentence to
6 Q. I did not ask you that. This is an evaluation entitled
7 I/1, correct?
8 A. That is what it says here.
9 MR. O'SULLIVAN: Your Honour, we have the English version at
10 22, he has the German version at 00487884. This
11 evaluation was prepared by your colleague Moerbaur in
12 connection with a folder from INDA-Bau, is that right,
13 folder I/1?
14 A. That is correct.
15 Q. It makes reference to a green folder, does it not? At
16 the top of the page you will see that. It refers to the
17 evaluation of the green folder?
18 A. That is what it says, the evaluation of the green
19 folder. Is that the one you are talking about?
20 Q. That is right.
21 A. Yes, I can see that.
22 Q. If you go to the last entry at the bottom of the
23 page before Moerbaur's signature, it says and I quote:
24 "The folder also contains company documents from
25 the INDA-Bau Limited firm Vienna, legal documents,
1 powers of attorney, certificate and company book
3 It appears that these documents have ended up in
4 the INDA-Bau file. They have left D-4 and they have
5 gone to I/1, is that not what seems to have happened?
6 A. I do not think that can be possible because the seized
7 items in any house search are kept, labelled and kept
8 separately on compartment or shelf. When Mr. Moerbaur
9 carried out the analysis, that was done step by step for
10 each item. We have I for INDA-Bau. It is quite clear
11 that contains the INDA-Bau documents, and --
12 Q. Let us clear up --
13 A. Just a moment, please. This is the report that we
14 talked about earlier concerning the green folder. In
15 the first and second line we have papers from INDA-Sond
16 and INDA-Bau and other papers, et cetera, and these
17 papers or documents refer only to these papers that were
18 seized at INDA-Bau.
19 Q. Let us try it this way, Officer Panzer. We started by
20 looking at a green folder which was marked D-4 which
21 referred to Door 14 at Taubergasse 15, right?
22 A. Green folder, you said. Green folder, Taubergasse 15,
23 Door 14, that was seized. A few times previously,
24 counsel, you asked me why in the seizure record there
25 was no green folder, so there can be no reference to a
1 green folder in the seizure record.
2 Q. The one you prepared on April 22nd has one, one green
3 folder, containing, among other things, INDA-Sond and
4 INDA-Bau company documents, legal documents, powers of
6 A. That is correct, counsel. I have tried to explain that
7 it is possible that I took that folder so that the
8 INDA-Bau, the search there, that we could have something
9 to put the documents in, but until you show me the
10 folder I cannot tell you whether it is mine or not.
11 Q. Now we have just looked at the evaluation, I/1, which
12 refers to the INDA-Bau file I/1, and there we have found
13 the documents which started off in D-4, the Door 14
14 file; is that not right?
15 A. They were business papers from INDA-Sond and INDA-Bau
16 that were found during the house search at Taubergasse
17 15, Door 14, Mr. Delalic's residence and, of course,
18 there were documents found concerning INDA-Bau when
19 Mr. Navrat searched INDA-Bau in Koppstrasse 14 in the
20 16th District.
21 MR. O'SULLIVAN: Your Honours, may I have a minute to consult
22 with my lead counsel?
23 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Yes. You are free to do so. (Pause).
24 MR. O'SULLIVAN: Officer Panzer, I would like to conclude
25 with a couple of questions regarding this. The first
1 time that you attached the designation D-4 to this
2 file was on April 22nd 1996, correct?
3 A. No, that cannot be right, counsel, because it was on
4 20th or the 21st that I went ahead with the labelling.
5 That is when I took all the items and listed them. The
6 report itself was drawn up on the 21st or the 22nd.
7 Q. But the first document that has D-4 in it is dated April
8 22nd 1996.
9 A. That is right, because that is when the final analysis
10 report was written.
11 Q. Could I ask that the witness be shown D57/1. You have
12 before you Defence exhibit marked as D57/1, dated April
13 22nd 1996, prepared in relation to INDA-Bau, which is
14 signed by you and your colleague Bycek; is that
16 A. That is correct.
17 Q. There you have references to files I/1 to I/12, correct?
18 A. Correct.
19 Q. Cassettes I/13 to I/66?
20 A. Correct.
21 Q. This document April 22nd 1996 is the first document in
22 which we find the designations using the letter I,
24 A. Right.
25 Q. With the assistance of the usher I would like to show
1 another document to the witness, please. I have a copy
2 for the Prosecution as well as your Honours.
3 THE REGISTRAR: The document will be marked D67/1.
4 MR. O'SULLIVAN: Officer you have in front of you an English
5 translation of a German document which has been marked
6 D67/1, the custody report; do you see that?
7 A. Right.
8 Q. This is a document which is prepared as a requirement of
9 Austrian law, is it not?
10 A. That is right.
11 Q. It is a record of the arrest of Mr. Mucic, is it not?
12 A. That is the report about the arrest and the search in
13 one report there.
14 Q. It gives the grounds for the arrest; is that correct?
15 A. What is indicated is that it is on the basis of a court
16 issued arrest warrant.
17 Q. This document was prepared on 18th March 1996.
18 A. On 18th March, yes, just after we arrived at police
20 Q. That is your signature on the document.
21 A. Yes, that is right.
22 MR. O'SULLIVAN: I move to have this exhibit admitted into
23 evidence, your Honour.
24 MR. NIEMANN: No objection.
25 MR. O'SULLIVAN: Is that admitted, D67/1.
1 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Yes, I have it here.
2 MR. O'SULLIVAN: This document is signed by the arresting
3 officers; is that right? The names at the end are the
4 four who arrested Mr. Mucic?
5 A. That is right.
6 Q. Did you prepare this document?
7 A. This document was prepared by me, yes.
8 Q. Did you ensure that your colleagues signed it?
9 A. That is right.
10 Q. Were you present when your colleagues signed it?
11 A. The colleagues who did sign it were present in person,
13 Q. In front of you? They were present in front of you?
14 A. Borlak and Bycek, I can remember that they signed and
15 the signature of Mr. Moerbaur was missing.
16 Q. Did you see Mr. Moerbaur sign it?
17 A. Mr. Moerbaur did not sign this in person. This was
18 affixed by me.
19 Q. Because Mr. Moerbaur said somebody must have forged the
20 signature. Are you the person who forged Moerbaur's
22 MR. NIEMANN: I object, your Honour. That calls for a legal
24 MR. O'SULLIVAN: I am only repeating what Mr. Moerbaur said in
25 the transcript when he testified.
1 JUDGE JAN: He is repeating what Mr. Moerbaur said when he
3 MR. NIEMANN: I object to the word "forged". It calls for a
4 legal conclusion which is a matter for the court.
5 MR. O'SULLIVAN: May I remind you, Mr. Panzer, when Mr.
6 Moerbaur did testify here, he said he did not know who
7 signed it, and he said to my learned friend Mr. Greaves
8 on cross-examination that someone must have forged his
9 name. That someone is you; is that correct?
10 A. I affixed this signature; in other words I made his
11 signature, as it were.
12 Q. I would like to know one last thing: are the signatures
13 of officers on official documents often forged at police
14 headquarters in Vienna?
15 A. No, that is not the case.
16 MR. O'SULLIVAN: I have no further questions, your Honour.
17 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Any other cross-examination?
18 MR. GREAVES: On behalf of Zdravko Mucic we adopt the
19 cross-examination of Mr. O'Sullivan.
20 MR. MORAN: No questions, your Honour.
21 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honour just very briefly I think I have
22 just two questions.
23 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: You may proceed.
24 Cross-examined by MR. ACKERMAN
25 Q. I would like to ask the usher to hand a piece of blank
1 A4 paper to the witness which I will ask him to use here
2 in a moment. Good afternoon, Mr. Panzer. How are you?
3 A. Fine, thank you.
4 Q. My name is John Ackerman, I represent Mr. Esad Landzo in
5 this case.
6 A. I do not know the gentleman.
7 Q. Okay. I want to direct your attention to the day of
8 18th March 1996, that being the date that Mr. Mucic was
9 arrested, correct?
10 A. Mr. Mucic was arrested on the 18th March, yes.
11 Q. You told us that around 5.00 pm that day, you and
12 Mr. Mucic and several other officers arrived at the
13 police headquarters in Vienna.
14 A. As far as I can recall, I said that I had arrived at
15 police headquarters at around 5.00 pm.
16 Q. I am just really wanting to direct your attention to
17 that place in time and mostly to that building. Would
18 you tell us, is that a building that only contains
19 police headquarters, or are there other offices in the
21 A. It is a building that has seven storeys. There is an
22 inner courtyard and there are various offices of the
23 Vienna police department that are housed in it.
24 Q. So all of the officers, the entire contents of that
25 building are at the disposal of the Vienna police
1 department, it is a police department building, in other
3 A. It is a building that belongs to the Vienna police
4 department and all of the entries and entrances are
5 secured by a police officer.
6 Q. All right. Is the jail that Mr. Mucic was put in also
7 contained in that building?
8 A. No.
9 Q. You have told the court about some particular offices
10 331 and 329. Would that numbering system indicate that
11 those offices were on the third floor of that building?
12 A. Division 1 is on the third floor, that is right.
13 Q. Using that piece of paper that I asked the Registrar to
14 give you a moment ago, could you take a pen or a pencil
15 and draw a diagram of basically that floor and where
16 office 331 is and where office 329 is. I am interested
17 in where they are in relation to each other and in
18 relation to that floor of the building.
19 A. Counsel, I am afraid I am not much of an artist but
20 I will do my best to come up with something suitable.
21 Q. We are not running a contest of your artistic abilities
22 here so no one will criticise you. Once you have
23 finished I am going to ask you to put it on the machine
24 next to you which is called an ELMO and we will all be
25 able to see your drawing?
1 JUDGE JAN: They must be contiguous, rooms 331 and 329, or
2 on one side.
3 MR. ACKERMAN: That is what I am trying to find out.
4 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: The evidence so far indicates that they
5 were using both rooms.
6 A. If I might explain this to you, this is the north, up
7 here, this is the ring road, ringstrasse. There is the
8 Hotel de France here on the left, and the Hilton Plaza
9 Hotel on the right, so ringstrasse and then Maria
10 Theresia Strasse, 1st district down here, 9th district
11 up there. The building has the windows giving on the
12 ring road and the breakdown of the rooms here. Here is
13 the lift and the stairs. You step out of the lift, you
14 go to the right, then right again and then the order is
15 29, 30, 31, so over here you would have 28 and over
16 there you would have 32.
17 Q. Can you tell us what room 330 is? What is contained in
18 that room?
19 A. Room 330 is a small office for two individuals.
20 Q. What I think you have described for us here today is
21 that most of the activity you were talking about where
22 you all got together with the documents, where the
23 cabinet is, the documents were locked in, all of that
24 was room 331.
25 A. Right.
1 Q. Then I think you also told us that the OTP
2 representatives and perhaps Winkelmann and the other
3 gentleman, whose name I do not remember right now, and
4 Unger, were working in room 329?
5 A. Messrs Winkelmann and Unger wrote the report in room
6 330. There is also a computer screen there, and the
7 Tribunal people as far as I know were in room 329.
8 Q. Is there a passage between all three of those rooms, or
9 does one have to go out in the hall?
10 A. There is a passage between these offices, and these
11 three offices belong to Department 2 of Division 1. It
12 used to be a single unit, and since that was broken up,
13 room 331 is used by Department 2, and rooms 330 and 329
14 by Department 6. We used to be a group of fourteen
15 people which on account of internal changes were split
16 up, but we do work together when we are on duty.
17 Q. Would you just take the document back again where you
18 can draw on it again and show us where room 326 would be
19 and draw it on the document for us?
20 A. 326, I assume that you mean Mr. Navrat's office. If you
21 tell me that you want to know where Mr. Navrat's office
22 is, I can tell you. I do not know the number.
23 Q. I suspect that is Mr. Navrat's office. The record that
24 we have indicates 326.
25 A. This office here, this is a large office. That is the
1 person in charge of the detectives Division 1. Then
2 there is a single office, that is where Mr. Navrat is.
3 Then alongside here there is several offices up to 329
4 and these senior officers of Division 1 use those
6 Q. On that large office that you have drawn there in the
7 corner, would you make a mark of your choice just to
8 identify it as that large office and tell us what mark
9 you have put there and what that office is, just so the
10 record will be clear.
11 A. You asked me for which number?
12 Q. You described a large office there in the corner near
13 326 as being where the head of the division was or
14 something like that. I do not remember how you
15 described it, but I just wanted you to mark it in some
16 way so that the record would show what you were
17 describing. That is all I am asking. It looks like you
18 have put a 32 there, maybe.
19 A. Counsel, I asked you earlier whether you were after
20 Mr. Navrat's office. 326, that is not Mr. Navrat. 326 is
21 over here somewhere. Mr. Navrat has an office in this
22 wing, so this is not right. 28, 27, 26, 25, 21, I think
23 that is where the senior officers are on duty, then 22,
24 23, I believe, is for the person in charge of
25 Division 1. Next to that is Mr. Navrat's office, but in
1 any event, it is not number 326.
2 Q. Where is 326?
3 A. It has to be along here somewhere, say round here. 326.
4 Q. So some time on the 18th, you were sitting at a desk in
5 that office and Mr. Panzer brought you a bunch of
6 documents into room 326 -- I mean Mr. Navrat brought you
7 a bunch of documents into room 326. Did that happen?
8 A. Counsel, I was never in room 326. I was always in room
10 Q. The last thing I want you to show us with regard to this
11 document you have been drawing for us is where is the
12 copying machine upon which copies of these documents
13 were made?
14 A. Over here, in this area.
15 Q. I take it you get there by going out into a hall and
16 walking around that plaza area to get to that office.
17 A. That is right.
18 Q. I said that was the last thing, but I really have one
19 more. Where was the place where one would make copies
20 of videos?
21 A. Office 319, that is over here. We have had a video room
22 now for some two years and that video room is 319.
23 Q. Thank you. What I would like you to do now is somewhere
24 on that document write your name, Panzer.
25 A. You find my signature on every report.
1 Q. No, I am not asking you to sign anything. I just want
2 you to print your name, Panzer, on that drawing you just
3 made for us, just so the record will show that it is
4 Panzer's drawing.
5 A. I cannot recall ever having done anything of this sort
6 before in Austrian court, but if this is --
7 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: It will be sufficient if you can only
8 write your name as the person who made the sketch. It
9 does not mean anything. A sketch made on that
11 A. This is fine by me. This is my signature. I have never
12 done anything of this sort before.
13 MR. ACKERMAN: It could be lots of things are happening here
14 today you have never had happened before. Things
15 operate differently here. I would ask it be taken to
16 the registrar and marked as an exhibit, and I offer it
17 as an exhibit in this case, your Honour, when it finally
18 gets a number.
19 THE REGISTRAR: The document will be marked D22/4.
20 MR. ACKERMAN: I have no further questions, thank you.
21 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Any other examination? Any
23 Re-examined by MR. NIEMANN
24 Q. Yes, your Honour. Mr. Panzer, you were taken to Defence
25 Exhibit 67/1, the custody report. Do you still have
1 that document in front of you?
2 A. Yes, I have it clear.
3 Q. Going to the final page, you were taken to some
4 signatures and names there.
5 A. Yes, I see that, counsel.
6 Q. Of the four names of the people there, who was the most
7 senior officer in the police department of those four
9 A. That is me.
10 Q. Above the name Moerbaur, what did you write there?
11 A. I put down the abbreviation of his nickname -- actually
12 I put down his nickname.
13 Q. Why did you do that?
14 A. Well, there were various documents, various files,
15 various documents were being drawn up very late.
16 According to regulations we have to provide four copies
17 of the file to the court. When I was putting together
18 the copy for the court I realised that there was a
19 signature missing, so since Mr. Moerbaur was not there
20 and Mr. Mucic was being taken to the police prison and
21 I wanted to hurry and get through this and get the case
22 ready for the court, I affixed his signature and then
23 I transmitted the case file to the court.
24 Q. Thank you. You were also asked some questions about
25 affixing the stickers or labels to the documents that
1 had been seized by officer Navrat from INDA-Bau; do you
2 remember that?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. You said that you had affixed them after they had been
5 brought to the police premises?
6 A. That is right.
7 Q. Might the witness be shown Exhibits 114, 115 and 116,
8 please? They are three videos.
9 MR. O'SULLIVAN: Objection, your Honour, there was no
10 question about the videos in my cross-examination. It
11 is inappropriate re-examination, your Honours, in my
13 JUDGE JAN: Let us hear first of all the question.
14 MR. NIEMANN: Your Honours, page 2 of the -- I am referring
15 to page 2 of the transcript, I can get the exact
16 reference because it happened so recently, I do not have
17 a page reference, but line 8, the question is from
18 Mr. O'Sullivan:
19 "Okay and the videos that he allegedly seized,
20 they left without being marked as well, correct?
21 Answer: Marking all the seized items during the
22 search, there were only three", and he goes on to answer
23 the question. So in my submission the matter was
25 MR. O'SULLIVAN: In my submission, the answer is quite clear
1 to the question. There is no ambiguity in what the
2 witness said. There is no basis for re-examination.
3 That is my submission.
4 MR. NIEMANN: The ambiguity must arise presumably, otherwise
5 counsel would not have wasted the court's time asking
6 the question, I would have thought. I am merely asking
7 the witness to confirm he has his stickers on the video.
8 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: If the answer was conclusive and clear,
9 there is nothing to re-examine on.
10 MR. NIEMANN: No, your Honours, but it was like a lot of
11 questions asked by this counsel; the witness was asked
12 to answer the question in a vacuum without reference to
13 the actual materials themselves. I do not think that is
14 a fair way to examine a witness, and I think it is fair,
15 if you do want answers to these types of questions, to
16 present either the document or the green folder or the
17 video or whatever it is to the witness, and just confirm
18 that that is the marking he put on it or that is the
19 document or bundle of documents he dealt with.
20 In my submission, your Honours, if it is not done
21 and it is unfairly carried out on the basis the witness
22 is expected to memorise all these things without taking
23 the witness to them, then in my submission,
24 re-examination is a proper forum by which that method of
25 cross-examination can be corrected so that the witness
1 can --
2 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: You mean that method of examination
3 could be reinforced. That is not the issue here.
4 JUDGE JAN: But you examined him at length with regard to
5 markings in your direct.
6 MR. NIEMANN: He gave evidence, yes, your Honour, in relation
7 to the Moerbaur tapes. He gave evidence generally in
8 relation to all of the INDA-Bau material and the videos,
9 but if your Honours --
10 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: You have read out the answer to the
11 cross-examination. It is from that answer that you will
12 be entitled to re-examination. The answer is very
13 clear. It need not open any doubts as to what should
15 MR. NIEMANN: You are saying it does not fall within
17 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: No.
18 MR. NIEMANN: Might I reopen with this witness, your Honour?
19 He has not been discharged and I will ask the question
20 in chief.
21 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: You are recalling him?
22 MR. NIEMANN: Yes, your Honours.
23 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Under what rule?
24 MR. NIEMANN: Your Honours, the witness has not been
25 discharged, and I would --
1 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Then there will be no end to it. Any
2 time you want to ...
3 MR. GREAVES: It is just inviting your Honours to go round
4 the back of your ruling you have just given, so that is
5 not a proper way to proceed.
6 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: You could not, merely because he has
7 not been discharged, start another examination-in-chief.
8 MR. NIEMANN: Your Honours, it is not an improper way to
9 proceed, just to answer what came from the floor. If
10 your Honours are not prepared to allow it as part of
11 re-examination, it is perfectly appropriate for counsel
12 to ask to re-examine the witness on the point. We do
13 not need to have lectures from Mr. Greaves about what is
14 proper and what is not. It is entirely appropriate for
15 me to make this application, and it is entirely
16 appropriate for your Honours to order that it is not
17 available to me, if that is what your Honours wish to
19 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Your application is to recall a witness
20 who has not been discharged, that is what you are
21 saying, and to put further questions to him.
22 MR. NIEMANN: Because something has come out of
23 cross-examination and in my submission the evidence is
24 incomplete. If it does not come within re-examination
25 then I ask to reopen merely to put that question to the
2 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: And then subject him to further
4 MR. NIEMANN: If there is to be further cross-examination on
5 the point, that would happen, yes, your Honour.
6 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Put the question. The Defence will be
7 entitled to cross-examine on that.
8 Further examined by MR. NIEMANN
9 Q. If your Honour pleases. Mr. Panzer, would you please
10 look at those four videos that have been shown to you
11 and can you confirm that your sticker appears on each
12 one of them -- three videos. Please confirm that your
13 sticker that you referred to in evidence appears on each
14 one of them.
15 A. This sticker was put on this tape and on the case by me
16 and bears my handwriting.
17 MR. MORAN: Excuse me, your Honour, can we relate these to
18 some exhibit number, rather than just this and that?
19 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: When he finishes this he will tell you
20 the exhibit number.
21 MR. MORAN: Thank you, your Honour, because he was setting
22 one down and going on to another. I would like it to be
24 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: I think it will follow.
25 MR. NIEMANN: Could you just say what is on the sticker,
2 A. I do apologise, I forgot. This videotape bears the
3 sticker I for INDA-Bau 22, and this is my handwriting
4 and this goes for both the tape itself and the case.
5 This is my sticker, my handwriting, affixed by me, I for
6 INDA-Bau 25, on the tape and on the case the same again,
7 I/46, written by me, affixed by me on the case and on
8 the tape.
9 MR. NIEMANN: Your Honours, I notice that -- that is all the
10 questions I wish to ask on that matter. I have two very
11 short questions, but I am aware of the time. Do
12 your Honours wish me to conclude now and recommence
13 tomorrow with the two questions, or may I continue?
14 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: You can continue, as long as you allow
15 them to cross-examine tomorrow.
16 Further re-examined by MR. NIEMANN
17 Q. Thank you. Mr. Panzer, during the time that you were
18 operating in room 331 and the neighbouring rooms in
19 which the police officers were on that evening of the
20 18th March 1996, did you see any persons produce false
21 documentation and place them with folders or interfere
22 in an unauthorised way with the material that had been
23 seized from the various premises as a consequence of the
24 search warrant?
25 MR. O'SULLIVAN: Your Honours, aside from his own false
1 signature, I think the witness has answered that
3 MR. NIEMANN: I will put another question, your Honour.
4 Mr. Panzer, did you or any of your colleagues, did you or
5 did you see any of your colleagues or anyone else that
6 was in that room at the time of the documents that had
7 been seized, produce and forge false documents in the
8 name of or purporting to come from either of the accused
9 in these proceedings in order that they may mislead this
10 court or mislead any court?
11 A. No, of course not.
12 MR. NIEMANN: I have no further questions, your Honour.
13 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: You might as well complete your
14 cross-examination if you like. We will take it up to --
15 any cross-examination on this additional evidence?
16 MR. MORAN: Your Honour, I have one question on that, I can
17 do it from here.
18 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Yes, you can do that.
19 Cross-examined by MR. MORAN
20 Q. Herr Panzer, my name is Tom Moran and I represent a man
21 named Hazim Delic. You just testified a few seconds ago
22 that you did not see anyone forge a document to mislead
23 any court anywhere; is that correct?
24 A. That is right.
25 Q. Did you not testify about ten minutes ago that you put
1 another officer's signature, was it not Officer
2 Moerbaur's signature, on a document that was to go to a
3 court and that you wanted that signature to purport to
4 be that other officer's signature?
5 A. That is right.
6 Q. Were you not trying to mislead that judge into thinking
7 that that officer had signed that document?
8 A. If you want to see it that way, yes.
9 MR. MORAN: Thank you very much, your Honours.
10 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Any other cross-examination?
11 Cross-examined by MS. RESIDOVIC
12 Q. Mr. Panzer, is it correct that you said that you received
13 from Mr. Navrat all the material without any markings?
14 A. That is right.
15 Q. Is it correct, Mr. Panzer, that the first marks placed on
16 the documents from INDA-Bau are to be found in the
17 document of 22nd April 1996 which you examined as
18 Exhibit D57/1, and which you signed as well as
19 Mr. Bycek?
20 A. Madam counsel, could you please repeat that question?
21 Q. Mr. Panzer, you were shown the report which you and
22 Mr. Bycek prepared on 22nd April 1996.
23 A. In relation to which search, please?
24 Q. In connection with the search of INDA-Bau. And you
25 confirmed that this was the document in which a
1 numbering of the objects from INDA-Bau was made for the
2 first time; is that correct?
3 A. Madam counsel, the labelling of the items seized at
4 INDA-Bau could at the latest by the 20th, now the report
5 about the list and the analysis, that was drawn up
6 subsequently on the 22nd.
7 Q. Thank you. I heard what you said. My question is: was
8 this the first document bearing those markings or
10 A. That is right.
11 Q. Is that the document in which it is stated for the first
12 time that 54 videotapes were found in INDA-Bau?
13 A. That is right.
14 Q. Is it also true that in the Niederschrift dated the
15 18th, the number given was 51 videotapes?
16 JUDGE JAN: This part has already been crossed.
17 A. That is right.
18 MS. RESIDOVIC: Thank you, I have no further questions.
19 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Thank you very much. This is obviously
20 outside the standard.
21 MR. OLUJIC: Your Honours, as a series of problems have been
22 raised because my learned colleague from the Prosecution
23 has restarted the examination-in-chief after working
24 hours, and we are now engaged in a repeated
25 cross-examination, and as it is rather late in the day,
1 our concentration is not up to par, we would beg your
2 indulgence to ask the witness to stay until tomorrow so
3 that we can continue with the re-cross-examination
4 tomorrow. This is all due to the Prosecutor who started
5 the examination-in-chief once again.
6 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: I do not think this is fair. You are
7 not being fair. There are compelling reasons why we
8 should conclude today. In the first place I think you
9 have already adopted earlier cross-examination, which
10 was effectively made, and I am sure you thought it right
11 to adopt those cross-examinations. I do not think much
12 more has been added to that. I do not think we will
13 continue tomorrow. We will conclude this
14 cross-examination today, and there is no statutory time
15 limit for working, we just adopted a provision so we
16 would have enough time to conduct the business of the
17 Tribunal. If today, from the time when we started, we
18 have done about 10 minutes, 20 minutes outside normal
19 time, I think we should be able to accommodate
20 everyone. If you have any questions, put them to him,
21 provided it is relevant and within the scope of the new
22 evidence tendered.
23 MR. OLUJIC: Your Honours, I have no questions at this
24 particular moment in time. We have exhausted the
25 questions that were made through the very detailed
1 cross-examination by colleague O'Sullivan, but a series
2 of avenues have been opened up through the reopening of
3 the examination, and that is the only thing I wanted to
4 say, but we do not have any additional questions, nor
5 would it be necessary to delay the proceedings any
6 further. Thank you.
7 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: I am surprised at you, Mr. Olujic,
8 saying that something other than the evidence tendered
9 was opened. You will find it might be very helpful to
10 you during your Defence. Thank you very much. I think
11 that is all.
12 JUDGE JAN: Mr. Ackerman, do you have any questions?
13 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honour, I do not have any additional
14 questions, thank you.
15 JUDGE JAN: Mr. Moran?
16 MR. MORAN: No, your Honour, I asked my four questions and it
17 was actually four more than I planned on asking.
18 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: You started first. Thank you very
19 much, Mr. Panzer. Thank you for being very helpful.
20 I think that is all for you. You are discharged.
21 (The witness withdrew)
22 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: The Trial Chamber will now rise.
23 (5.50 pm)
24 (Court adjourned until 10.00 am the following day)