1 Wednesday, 3rd September 1997
2 (10.00 am)
3 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Good morning ladies and gentlemen. We
4 will have the appearances, please.
5 MR. NIEMANN: If your Honours please, my name is Niemann and
6 I appear with my colleagues Ms. McHenry, Mr. Turone,
7 Mr. Khan and Ms. Van Dusschoten for the Prosecution,
8 your Honour.
9 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: And the Defence appearances, please.
10 MS. RESIDOVIC: Good morning, your Honours, I am Edina
11 Residovic, Defence counsel for Mr. Zejnil Delalic, with
12 co-counsel Eugene O'Sullivan, professor from Canada.
13 MR. OLUJIC: Good morning your Honours, I am Zeljko Olujic
14 attorney from Croatia, representing Mr. Zdravko Mucic,
15 together with my co-counsel, Mr. Michael Greaves,
16 attorney from the United Kingdom.
17 MR. KARABDIC: Good morning your Honours, I am Salih Karabdic
18 appearing for Mr. Hazim Delic along with my co-counsel,
19 Mr. Thomas Moran, attorney from Houston Texas.
20 MR. ACKERMAN: Good morning your Honours, I am John Ackerman
21 and along with my co-counsel Cynthia McMurray I appear
22 on behalf of Mr. Esad Landzo.
23 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Before we continue this morning, the
24 trial Chamber is sorry to announce that we might not be
25 able to take the motion scheduled for this morning
1 because of other more pressing problems. Would you mind
2 if we take Tuesday morning for the arguments? Can we
3 have the next witness?
4 MS. McHENRY: Thank you, your Honours, for postponing that
5 argument. Your Honour, the Prosecution calls Witness T,
6 who is a protected witness. I believe the blinds will
7 have to be closed.
8 (Witness entered court)
9 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Kindly let him swear.
10 WITNESS T (sworn)
11 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: You can sit down.
12 MS. McHENRY: May I begin, your Honours?
13 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Yes, you may start.
14 Examined by MS. McHENRY
15 Q. Thank you. Sir, good morning. Do you understand that
16 the judges have granted your request that your name and
17 your face not be made public as part of your testimony
18 here today?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Do you understand that you will be known as Mr. T?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. I am asking the court usher to show you on a piece of
23 paper a name and I ask you to confirm that it is your
24 actual name. Is that your actual name that is written
25 on the paper, sir? You do not have to say your name,
1 just please tell me if that is your name, yes or no.
2 A. Yes, it is my name.
3 Q. Thank you. Sir, were you interviewed previously by a
4 representative from the office of the Prosecutor and you
5 gave a statement that was recorded?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Before giving that statement were you advised of certain
9 A. I was.
10 Q. Since you have been here in The Hague today, have you
11 again been advised of those rights?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Sir, although you may remember them, just so the record
14 is clear, do you understand that I am going to give you
15 those rights again?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Sir, do you understand that you have the right to be
18 assisted by counsel of your choice or to have legal
19 assistance assigned to you without payment if you do not
20 have sufficient means to pay for it?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Do you understand that you have the right to remain
23 silent and to be cautioned that any statement you make
24 shall be recorded and may be used in evidence?
25 A. Yes.
1 JUDGE JAN: Do you mean against him?
2 MS. McHENRY: Against him or anyone else.
3 JUDGE JAN: It should be against you.
4 A. Yes.
5 MS. McHENRY: Is it correct that no promises or inducements
6 of any kind have been made to you from anyone in the
7 Office of the Prosecutor?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Is it correct that you are testifying here voluntarily
10 to this Tribunal today?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Is it correct that you have not requested a lawyer in
13 connection with your testimony here today?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Sir, how old are you at the present time?
16 A. I am 28.
17 Q. Where were you born?
18 A. In Konjic.
19 Q. Can you please tell us when approximately you left
21 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: No English translation is coming
22 through to me. Okay.
23 MS. McHENRY: I am sorry sir, let me repeat the question.
24 Can you tell the court when approximately you left
1 A. I left in 1993.
2 Q. Did you then move to another country and do you still
3 live in that country today? Not today, but at the
4 present time.
5 A. No, I moved to another country and then I later moved
6 from there to a third country.
7 Q. Thank you. Sir, how far did you go in school?
8 A. I completed secondary school as a metal worker, a
10 Q. What is your ethnic background, sir?
11 A. I am a Croat.
12 Q. Sir, in early 1992, were you living in Konjic?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Did there come a time in 1992 when you joined any kind
15 of Defence or military force or unit?
16 A. Yes, at the beginning of the war I joined the
17 Territorial Defence of Bosnia-Herzegovina.
18 Q. Where were you stationed as a member of the Territorial
20 A. I was stationed on the frontline in relation to Serb
21 held territory.
22 Q. Was this the Konjic TO that you joined?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Can you tell us approximately when it was that you
25 joined the Konjic TO?
1 A. At the very beginning of the war.
2 Q. Do you know approximately what month that would be, sir?
3 A. I cannot recall exactly.
4 Q. Did there come a time when you left the TO and joined
5 another group or unit?
6 A. Yes, I later joined the Croatian Defence Council as a
8 Q. The Croatian Defence Council, is that also known as the
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Can you state approximately if you know when it was that
12 you joined the HVO police?
13 A. Maybe in April or May -- no, I am not quite sure.
14 Q. Was there a time that you were sent to the Celebici camp
15 to work?
16 A. Yes, I was sent there because HVO soldiers were
17 providing the guards for the Celebici camp.
18 Q. When was this, approximately, sir?
19 A. Immediately after the capture of Donje Selo. I cannot
20 again recall the exact month.
21 Q. Who sent you to work at Celebici camp?
22 A. I was sent by a commander called Zeljko Brekalo.
23 Q. Was he the commander of the HVO military police at that
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. When you first went to the camp was everyone who worked
2 in the camp a member of the HVO?
3 A. In addition to HVO there were Muslims and Croats, but
4 I think there were members of the TO as well.
5 Q. Just for an overview, how long in all did you remain
6 working in Celebici?
7 A. I remained about six or seven months, maybe a little
9 Q. Do you know approximately what month or what months it
10 would have been when you left the camp finally?
11 A. It was perhaps in October or November.
12 Q. What were your duties in the camp, sir?
13 A. Immediately upon my arrival, the investigations of
14 prisoners were carried out by the Ministry of the
15 Interior, so that I was mainly bringing prisoners in for
16 questioning, wait for them to complete the interview,
17 then take them back to their place of detention. Later
18 on, I was on duty at the telephone and then I became a
20 Q. During the time period that you were a driver, can you
21 explain what your duties were as a driver, what kinds of
22 things you did?
23 A. I mostly drove the prisoners when they were released to
24 their villages, mostly to Donje Selo, because most of
25 them were going there. That was one of my most
1 important duties.
2 Q. Did you drive people who worked in the camp on any
3 occasions? Was that sometimes part of your duties?
4 A. Yes, there were some cases, some instances, but not very
5 significant, to take someone to a cafe or to a party or
6 something like that.
7 Q. Were you also ever involved in moving prisoners between
8 the Celebici camp and any other prison camp?
9 A. I am not quite sure. As far as I can remember I once
10 took the wounded from the camp in the centre of town,
11 when they were wounded I drove them to the hospital, and
12 then I think I later transferred them after treatment to
14 Q. When you refer to the camp in the centre of town, sir,
15 would that be what is referred to as Musala camp?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. During the time that you were a driver, who was the
18 commander of the camp?
19 A. Mr. Zdravko Mucic was.
20 Q. Did you sometimes drive Mr. Mucic to the camp or away
21 from the camp or between camps?
22 A. Perhaps two or three times, not so often.
23 Q. Did Mr. Mucic have his own transportation that he usually
24 used when he was going to or from the camp?
25 A. He had his own car and he usually used it.
1 Q. In addition to his car, did Mr. Mucic have any other
2 means of transportation that he sometimes used?
3 A. Yes, he had a motorbike. As far as I recall, that is
4 all, a motorbike and a car.
5 Q. Thank you. Sir, was there ever any interruption in your
6 work at Celebici camp, or did you work there
7 continuously from when you first got there to when you
8 finally left?
9 A. There was an interruption when all the Croatian soldiers
10 abandoned Celebici and joined the other Croats on the
11 frontlines. That was the only time that I left the
12 camp, and this was for a day or two. After that I went
13 back to Celebici.
14 Q. Okay. Could you please just briefly explain why you
15 decided to go back to Celebici and how you made the
16 arrangements to go back.
17 A. The reasons for leaving Celebici were the rumours going
18 around town that the Croatian fighters would be blamed
19 for certain things that were happening there, and
20 another reason was the formation of the Muslim police,
21 though I am not quite sure. When I came back I asked
22 the commander, Zdravko Mucic, whether I could come back
23 and he said I could.
24 Q. Can you please explain why it is that you wanted to go
25 back to the camp?
1 A. I went back because it was boring to be in the military
2 police. They were doing nothing, just sitting around.
3 It was boring. There was no special reason.
4 Q. Sir, when you went back to Celebici then after talking
5 to the commander, Mr. Mucic, were you a member of the TO,
6 the HVO, some sort of police unit? Exactly when, if you
7 know, were you a member of?
8 A. To tell you the truth I do not know who I belonged to.
9 Probably some kind of Territorial Defence.
10 Q. Sir, during the time that you worked in the camp, did
11 you sleep in the camp?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Did other persons also sleep in the camp?
14 A. Yes, they did.
15 Q. What building did you and the other people sleep in?
16 What was it called?
17 A. I do not exactly know what it was called. I have
18 forgotten the number now. Anyway it was the building
19 where the offices were, and where the kitchen was for
20 the guards, the canteen, I do not know whether it had a
21 special name.
22 MS. McHENRY: Your Honour, in light of this witness's
23 protected status and lack of a long pointer, I do not
24 feel it necessary to use this model but if at some point
25 your Honours think it would be helpful we can shut the
1 blinds and have him do it.
2 Sir, what was the ethnic background of the
3 prisoners in Celebici?
4 A. They were of Serb ethnic origin.
5 Q. Can you tell us where the prisoners were detained? Was
6 it in one place, more than one place? Can you please
7 tell us the places where the prisoners were detained.
8 A. They were detained in three places, two hangars and a
10 Q. What kind of prisoners were kept in the tunnel?
11 A. In the tunnel there were mainly people from Bradina,
12 from Brdjani, mainly people who were considered a bit
13 more dangerous, people who they thought had participated
14 in the fighting.
15 Q. What kind of prisoners were kept in the hangars?
16 A. People in the hangars were mainly prisoners from Donje
17 Selo, some from the centre of the town, mainly elderly
18 people. There were some young people, but not that
20 Q. Sir, do I understand that you do not remember the
21 numbers of the hangars -- the two hangars where the
22 prisoners were kept?
23 A. I did not understand the question.
24 Q. You indicated that the prisoners were kept either in the
25 tunnel or in two hangars and I am asking if the hangars
1 had numbers and if they did, if you remember the
3 A. The hangars did have numbers. It was number 6 and
4 number 9, and the tunnel was number 11.
5 Q. Can you tell us where the two hangars were, if you can
6 just -- for instance, where was the -- let me start
7 off. Was one hangar larger than the other?
8 A. One hangar was close to the place where the guards
9 slept. That one was smaller and there was the other one
10 in the back, the one in the back was much bigger.
11 Q. Thank you. Sir, previously you indicated that there
12 were prisoners from the hangars in the centre of town.
13 What town do you mean?
14 A. The town of Konjic.
15 Q. Thank you. Sir, you previously mentioned that Zdravko
16 Mucic was the commander of the camp. Did Mr. Mucic also
17 have any kind of nickname?
18 A. Yes, he did. His nickname was Pavo.
19 Q. Was Mr. Mucic commander of the camp in the very beginning
20 when you first got to the camp?
21 A. No, he was not the commander at the time, the Ministry
22 of Internal Affairs was in charge of the camp.
23 Q. At the time when Mr. Mucic was in charge of the camp, do
24 you know whether or not he was a member of the TO, the
25 HVO or the Ministry of Interior or something else?
1 A. He was probably a member of the TO.
2 Q. Before he became commander, did Mr. Mucic sometimes come
3 to the camp?
4 A. I do not know, I am not sure.
5 Q. Did Mr. Mucic have a deputy?
6 A. Yes, he did. He had a deputy whose name was Hazim
8 Q. Do you know who appointed Mr. Delic as deputy commander?
9 A. It was probably Zdravko Mucic. I am not certain,
10 probably. I do not know.
11 Q. Did Mr. Delic have any injuries at any time when he
12 worked at the camp?
13 A. Before he became a permanent member of the prison, his
14 leg was injured and he used crutches to walk on. Since
15 he lived close to the prison he sometimes came there,
16 and later he became a permanent member.
17 Q. When he became a permanent member, was he deputy
18 commander; in other words, did he have some position
19 before he became deputy commander?
20 A. I cannot remember precisely whether he held a position
21 earlier or not.
22 Q. Was Mr. Delic using his crutches when he first had a
23 permanent position in the camp?
24 A. I do not know. I cannot remember.
25 Q. Did Mr. Delic have any kind of deputy or assistant?
1 A. Yes, later he had a deputy named Sejo Mustafic.
2 Q. What was Mr. Mustafic's position?
3 A. He mainly performed duties of the deputy when Pavo was
4 away or when Hazim was away, he carried out -- he was
5 responsible for the guards. He looked after the
6 prisoners and so on.
7 Q. Did Mr. Mucic have an office in the camp?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Did Mr. Mucic's office face the camp or face the road
10 outside the camp?
11 A. Towards the camp.
12 Q. How frequently was Mr. Mucic in the camp?
13 A. Sometimes he would spend an hour or two in a day, then
14 he would leave, he would not come back for two days, and
15 so he was rather absent, absent more than present.
16 Q. When he was in the camp, what did Mr. Mucic do?
17 A. When he was there, he visited the prisoners, he spoke to
18 some of them, asked them if they needed anything, the
20 Q. Did Mr. Mucic normally inspect the hangars or the tunnel
21 where the prisoners were kept?
22 A. Yes, he did carry out inspections. As I said, he
23 sometimes spoke to them. How many times I really cannot
25 Q. On the times when you saw Mr. Mucic speak to the
1 prisoners, would it be inside the hangar or the tunnel
2 or outside the hangars or the tunnel?
3 A. The times I saw, it was outside the hangar. Whether he
4 went inside the hangar or not when I was away, maybe he
5 did, maybe he did not, I do not know.
6 Q. Is it correct, sir, that you did not personally see him
7 make any kinds of inspections inside the hangars or the
9 A. I cannot remember precisely. Maybe he did, maybe he did
11 Q. When Mr. Mucic was not in the camp, do you know where he
12 was or what he was doing?
13 A. I do not know exactly where he was. His parents were
14 there, maybe he stayed with his parents. He had a flat
15 in town, maybe he slept there sometimes, but exactly
16 where he was, I do not know.
17 Q. On some occasions, did you drive Mr. Mucic to places?
18 A. Yes, sometimes. I once drove him to see Mr. Zejnil --
19 actually he drove, I am sorry, but it was mainly --
20 I really do not know exactly what you mean.
21 Q. For instance, you indicated before, I believe, that
22 Mr. Mucic sometimes went to cafes -- I am sorry, you
23 indicated that sometimes you drove persons to cafes.
24 I am wondering whether or not as part of your duties
25 sometimes you drove Mr. Mucic to cafes.
1 A. Yes, we did drive, but that was not part of our duties.
2 We would simply go for a drink.
3 Q. How about fishing. Did you ever go with Mr. Mucic
4 fishing or drive him there?
5 A. Yes, two or three times.
6 Q. Sir, you just spoke about a Mr. Zejnil. First of all, do
7 you know the full name of Mr. Zejnil?
8 A. Yes, Zejnil Delalic.
9 Q. What was his position, if any, at that time?
10 A. As far as I knew and as the stories went in town, he was
11 the main person, he was within the Territorial Defence.
12 He was the main person for Prozor and Konjic.
13 Q. Did you ever see Mr. Zejnil in the camp?
14 A. I cannot remember exactly.
15 Q. Sir, is it the case that you cannot remember exactly or
16 that -- exactly how many times, or you cannot remember
17 whether he ever saw him in the camp?
18 A. I cannot remember whether I saw him or not.
19 Q. Sir, do you have any fears for you or your family as
20 a result of your testifying here today?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Can you tell us whether or not that is affecting your
23 ability to remember things or not?
24 A. That does have some influence and I also have a fairly
25 bad memory, because these things happened almost seven
1 years ago -- five years ago.
2 Q. Sir, do you know whether or not at the time you first
3 were interviewed by the Office of the Prosecutor and
4 since you have been at The Hague, on those occasions did
5 you remember if you saw Mr. Delalic in the camp at all?
6 JUDGE JAN: Are you cross-examining your own witness?
7 MS. McHENRY: No, your Honour, I am asking certain
8 questions to find out -- I do not want to make
9 representations to the court, but I think I am certainly
10 entitled in these circumstances, this is certainly a
11 very unusual situation and I am entitled to find out the
12 basis for the witness's testimony.
13 JUDGE JAN: Possibly declaring a hostile eyewitness or what?
14 MS. McHENRY: Your Honour, I have not done that yet, and
15 I do not know in this kind of Tribunal such formalistic
16 things are necessary, but I think at the moment I am
17 entitled to enquire whether or not he has very quickly
18 forgotten a number of things and I would ask permission
19 to go forward, obviously he will answer as he wishes.
20 MR. O'SULLIVAN: Your Honours, may I address you on this
21 matter? My learned friend has asked twice about his
22 recollection, he has answered twice. He has told that
23 he has answered to the best of his ability. I submit
24 that that closes this matter, this line of questioning.
25 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: About a particular matter, is that it?
1 MR. O'SULLIVAN: That is correct, your Honour.
2 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: You can proceed on other areas.
3 MS. McHENRY: Let me ask you, sir, generally, is it the
4 case that when you are testifying here right now you are
5 forgetting things that you knew within the last few days
6 as well as when the Office of the Prosecutor interviewed
7 you at the end of April of this year?
8 MR. OLUJIC: Objection, your Honour. The witness answered
9 that question.
10 MS. McHENRY: I am sorry, I do not believe the witness has
11 answered that question.
12 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: I think this is a new question,
13 different from his remembering whether Mr. Delalic has
14 been in the camp or not. This is quite different. That
15 was why I limited the possibility of pursuing the
16 earlier question.
17 MR. MORAN: Your Honour, I would object that she is
18 impeaching her own witness.
19 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: She is not doing that. She is asking
20 him other questions.
21 A. I do remember now, I did see him on one occasion when
22 there was an oath being declared and once when he came
23 to the office and he spoke to Mr. Zdravko Mucic;
25 Q. Can you remember, sir, if that was the only -- if those
1 were the only occasions that you saw Mr. Delalic in the
2 camp, or are you saying that you just cannot remember if
3 there were other occasions also?
4 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: You are returning to the earlier
5 question which you had abandoned.
6 MS. McHENRY: You are right, your Honour, but given that he
7 has given a specific answer to this question, I think
8 I just need to clarify this. I am just trying to
9 clarify exactly -- he now remembers something and I am
10 trying to clarify exactly what he remembers. I am not
11 doing anything other than trying to clarify the record.
12 I am not trying to impeach him. I am just trying to
13 find out what exactly his memory is. Sir, can you just
14 say whether or not --
15 MS. RESIDOVIC: Objection, your Honour. The witness has
16 just answered that question precisely, twice and the
17 exact occasions when he saw. There is no basis for
18 different questions.
19 MS. McHENRY: If I might briefly respond. First of all, in
20 general I would ask whether or not there is a rule that
21 one Defence counsel objects for each accused, and
22 secondly, I would ask that I think it is impossible to
23 say that this witness's answer about what he does and
24 does not remember is clear from this answer. Again I am
25 not trying to impeach him, I am just trying to find out
1 if he is sure those are the only times he saw Mr. Delalic
2 or he does not remember now.
3 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: You can put the question to him.
4 MS. McHENRY: Sir, do you remember whether or not those are
5 the -- can you say whether or not those are the only
6 times Mr. Delalic came to the camp or whether or not you
7 just do not remember if there were other occasions?
8 A. Yes, I do remember seeing him twice, he did come to the
9 camp. Whether he came again when I was away maybe yes,
10 maybe no, I really do not know.
11 Q. Sir, can you describe the workings of the prison; in
12 other words were there written instructions to the
13 guard, was there a code of conduct or procedure, were
14 there regularly scheduled meetings? Can you just
15 discuss how that worked?
16 A. There were no particular instructions for guards as to
17 how to treat the prisoners. There were no meetings
18 regarding that.
19 Q. Did Mr. Mucic normally communicate directly with the
20 guards, or did he communicate with his deputy commander
21 normally? Can you just explain a little bit about how
22 that worked?
23 A. He usually communicated with Hazim Delic. He probably
24 sometimes asked the guards how things were going on in
25 the camp.
1 Q. How did you in particular receive your instructions,
3 A. I got instructions from Hazim Delic.
4 Q. Did you ever receive instructions from Mr. Mucic?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. During the time you worked at the camp, sir, can you
7 describe the conditions for the prisoners? I would
8 first ask you to describe the physical conditions, for
9 instance the sleeping facilities, the toilet and bathing
11 A. The conditions were very difficult, especially in the
12 tunnel. People usually slept on concrete or on clothing
13 they had, perhaps some extra clothing they had. As for
14 hygiene conditions, they had some kind of improvised
15 toilets. They sometimes took baths.
16 Q. Can you describe how exactly it was that the prisoners
17 took baths and approximately how frequently these
18 occasions were?
19 A. It depends. Sometimes they washed once a week,
20 sometimes they had one in three weeks, but it was mainly
21 an improvised bath with cold water.
22 Q. Can you just please explain a little bit more -- when
23 you say it was improvised baths, exactly how did it
25 A. They helped one another during the washing because, as
1 I said, they did not have any special toilets or places
2 to take baths, it was just cold water. They had a tap
3 with holes.
4 Q. How many prisoners would take a bath at the same time?
5 A. I cannot remember how many washed at the same time, but
6 during the day, they would all finish the washing and
7 they would be left out in the sun to dry so they could
8 go back inside the hangar where it was much cooler.
9 Q. Did they wash themselves or did someone spray them with
11 A. They washed each other, they helped each other wash.
12 Q. How many times did you yourself see this occasion where
13 the prisoners were allowed to help each other wash?
14 A. I saw it two or three times.
15 Q. Do you remember, was it just two or three prisoners
16 there at a time or 200 prisoners there at a time?
17 A. It was a group of five or six prisoners who were helping
18 each other wash. When they finished there would be
19 another group and so on.
20 Q. In terms of this time period where the prisoners were
21 allowed to wash each other and then sit outside in the
22 sun to dry, do you know approximately when this was?
23 A. It was some time in summer when it was very hot.
24 Q. Do you know if it was before or after the Red Cross
1 A. I think it was after the Red Cross visit.
2 Q. How frequently did you yourself go inside the hangars?
3 A. Not that often. The only thing was I would go to the
4 door, I would go in from the door, but there was a very
5 unpleasant smell inside.
6 Q. Sir, can you describe the food the prisoners got, where
7 it came from, what it was like?
8 A. They received food from the town, but exactly where they
9 cooked it, I really do not know. It was some kind of
10 soups, thick soups with bread. They received certain
11 quantities of bread and sometimes they received
12 sometimes twice a day, sometimes once a day, sometimes
13 up to three times a day.
14 Q. Do you remember approximately when it was that the
15 prisoners received food three times a day and how
16 frequent it was that the prisoners were fed three times
17 a day?
18 A. I cannot remember exactly when it was that they received
19 food three times a day, but they mainly received food
20 twice a day.
21 Q. Sir, going back for a minute, you indicated that there
22 was a very unpleasant smell inside the hangar. Can you
23 please explain why there was a very unpleasant smell
24 inside the hangar?
25 A. Because it was very hot and the hangar was built of
1 aluminium and probably because people sweated inside and
2 because they could not wash every day. That is probably
3 why there was an unpleasant smell.
4 Q. Did the prisoners and the guards eat the same food?
5 A. No.
6 Q. Where did the food for the guards come from?
7 A. Very often food was prepared in the prison itself, and
8 sometimes it was brought from town for the guards as
10 Q. When food was prepared in the prison itself was that for
11 the guards only, or was it also for the prisoners?
12 A. Only for the guards.
13 Q. When the food came from the town for the guards, was it
14 the same food as the prisoners got or different food?
15 A. Only for the guards, it was different food.
16 Q. Sir, did any of the prisoners -- did the prisoners
17 appear adequately nourished?
18 A. I do not understand. What do you mean "adequately"?
19 I do not understand what the word "adequately" means.
20 Q. Did the prisoners appear like they had sufficient,
21 enough food?
22 A. No, they did not have enough food and since food was not
23 of very good quality, as I said, those were mainly
24 soups, creamy soups.
25 Q. Sir, were there any manholes in the prison?
1 A. Yes, there were, very close to the tunnel.
2 Q. Were any prisoners ever placed inside these manholes,
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Please describe exactly what you saw and heard about
6 prisoners being placed in the manholes?
7 A. They were mainly putting prisoners from the tunnel in
8 there, as far as I know. I think that one of them was
9 the brother of Zarko Mr.kajic, but I am not certain.
10 They would leave them there, sometimes overnight.
11 Q. Do you know whether or not there was water in these
12 manholes when the prisoners were placed in them?
13 A. Yes, there was water.
14 Q. When the prisoners were placed in the manhole, is this
15 when you were a driver or before that?
16 A. When I was a driver, and whether they had done it before
17 or not, I do not know.
18 Q. What kind of toilet facilities were there in the tunnel,
20 A. The same as in the hangars, they had improvised toilets
21 somewhere on the side, but conditions were the same
23 Q. Sir, can you tell the court whether or not any of the
24 prisoners were ever mistreated by being beaten or
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Was this just a few prisoners or was it more than that?
3 A. It was a considerable number.
4 Q. Was it persons who worked in the camp or persons from
5 outside the camp or both who beat the prisoners?
6 A. It was done by some people from the camp and there were
7 also people coming from the outside, outside the camp.
8 Q. Sir, how do you know that prisoners were being beaten in
9 the camp?
10 A. Sometimes I saw it myself, such as in the case of Bato
11 Kuljanin, when some team came from outside the prison
12 and they took him inside to an office, and they beat him
13 there for quite a while.
14 Q. Can you just tell me what you saw or heard of this
15 specific beating? Can you please tell us everything you
16 remember about that, including when it was, how you knew
17 about it, what you yourself could see or hear?
18 A. For example, when the policemen were killed in Repovci,
19 they thought some Serbs had done it, and when the guards
20 came back from Repovci they beat up the prisoners in the
21 hangar in the back, and there were some other cases.
22 Q. Sir, with respect to some of the beatings that you
23 yourself saw, did you know the name of the victim?
24 A. For example, Zara Mrkajic, who was beat up once by some
25 people coming from outside, I think they were from the
1 MUP, I am not sure. Then his brother, I cannot recall
2 his first name, then -- I mentioned Bato Kuljanin
3 already. Then there was somebody called Mici, I cannot
4 exactly remember his name. There were others but
5 I cannot recall their names.
6 Q. With respect to Bato Kuljanin, could you please tell us
7 in more detail whether or not you remember anything about that
8 beating in particular. For instance, do you remember
9 when it was? When could you see and what could you
11 A. I heard that the main reason was that they wanted to put
12 the blame on him, that he had killed a soldier in Donje
13 Selo during the operations there and the name of that
14 soldier was Velija and they wanted to put the blame for
15 that killing on him. By beating him, they wanted to
16 force him to confess. As far as I heard later, he would
17 not confess, and they beat him almost all night.
18 Q. Sir, could you hear the beatings as they were going on?
19 Could you hear anything when the beatings were going on?
20 A. Yes, one could hear his screams and moans and then he
21 said that they had put scissors up his nose, they beat
22 him with fists probably. When he came out I saw him.
23 When he came out of the office, his whole head was black
24 and blue.
25 Q. Do you know approximately when this was?
1 A. I cannot remember exactly.
2 Q. Could you please tell us exactly what you saw with
3 respect to Zara Mrkajic.
4 A. On one occasion he was tied to a pillar, the electricity
5 pile, the handcuffs. He was beaten before that and
6 later he was tied to the pole and he was left there for
7 about four or five hours. Then they beat him while he
8 was there.
9 Q. Do you know approximately when this was?
10 A. No, I do not know exactly when this happened.
11 Q. Who was it who beat Zara Mrkajic?
12 A. These were some people from outside the prison, not from
13 the prison. I cannot say exactly, I cannot remember who
14 they were.
15 Q. With respect to Zara Mrkajic's brother, please tell us
16 exactly what you remember about that beating.
17 A. He was in the tunnel and he was reported to be a
18 prominent Serbian soldier, so he received a lot of
19 beatings. For a time he went on a hunger strike, he
20 refused to eat.
21 Q. Sir, do you know if he refused to eat or that he was not
22 physically able to eat?
23 A. No, he refused to eat. He went on a hunger strike, and
24 then later, two or three days later, as far as I can
25 recall, he started taking food again.
1 Q. You indicated he received a lot of beatings. Can you
2 estimate about how many times he was beaten?
3 A. As far as I know I saw and heard that he was beaten at
4 least three or four times. Whether it was more than
5 that, I do not know, and who beat him, I cannot remember
7 Q. Sir, how about approximately when it was he was beaten.
8 Even if you cannot remember the day, can you tell us
9 what your duties were at that time?
10 A. I was a driver.
11 Q. Mici, sir. Would you please tell the court what you
12 yourself saw or heard with respect to the beating of
14 A. I heard that he was exposed to a lot of beatings in the
15 prison, and I heard Zijad Landzo once boasting that he
16 had beat him. All in all, I remember that he was beaten
17 a lot because before the war they said that he was also
18 a prominent Serb fighter.
19 Q. Did you yourself ever see when Mici was beaten, or did
20 you see his injuries?
21 A. I saw his injuries, but I did not personally observe the
22 beating. I heard from Zijad Landzo that he had beaten
24 Q. You have mentioned an Zijad Landzo. Can you please
25 describe -- first of all, was Mr. Zijad Landzo a person
1 inside the camp or not?
2 A. Yes, he was in the camp. He was a guard.
3 Q. Was he called Esad or did he have a nickname?
4 A. He had a nickname, it was Zenga.
5 Q. What was he called in the camp? Was he called by his
6 nickname or by his real name?
7 A. They called him by his nickname, Zenga.
8 Q. Did you know this person from before the war?
9 A. No, I did not.
10 Q. How do you know his real name?
11 A. I learnt it in the prison.
12 Q. How often would you see Zenga in the camp?
13 A. He was there non-stop.
14 Q. Was there anyone else called Zenga in the camp?
15 A. No, there was not.
16 Q. Was there anyone else with the last name of Landzo in
17 the camp?
18 A. Landzo -- as far as I know, no.
19 Q. Can you please describe what Zenga looked like?
20 A. He was not very tall, he was of medium height. He liked
21 to have his head shaved. That is it.
22 Q. Approximately how old was he?
23 A. I do not know exactly, perhaps 18, 19, 20.
24 Q. Did I understand you correctly that you sometimes heard
25 Zenga's voice?
1 A. Yes, he had a very specific kind of voice, as if he
2 spoke through the nose, nasally.
3 Q. Can you please tell us what you remember about him
4 saying about the beatings of Mici?
5 A. I heard him say on one occasion that he had beaten him
6 up. For how long he beat him I do not know.
7 Q. Did he say anything about why he beat him?
8 A. No, he did not.
9 Q. Did he say anything about how badly he had beaten him?
10 A. I do not know. I do not remember.
11 Q. Do you remember what Zenga's attitude was when he talked
12 about this? What was his demeanour?
13 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honour, I am going to object to that.
14 I think that calls for some kind of a conclusion about
15 what this witness thinks his demeanour might have been.
16 I do not think that is capable of description.
17 JUDGE JAN: I think he said he boasted.
18 MS. McHENRY: I am sorry your Honour, if that is already in
19 the record, I missed it.
20 Sir, even if you yourself do not remember the name
21 of the victim, did you also yourself see other beatings
22 other than the ones where you have told us you remember
23 the name of the victim? Do you need me to repeat the
24 question, sir?
25 A. No, there is no need. It is difficult to remember the
1 names of prisoners because these were people I saw for
2 the first time, and there were many prisoners and all
3 this happened five years ago.
4 Q. I am sorry, sir, maybe my question was not clear. Is it
5 the case that you yourself saw other beatings but you
6 just now do not remember the name of the victim, or you
7 never knew the name of the victim. In other words, I am
8 not asking you the name of the victim, I am asking you
9 whether or not other than the beatings you described of
10 Bato, Zara, Zara's brother and Mici, did you yourself
11 see other beatings even if you do not know the name of
12 the victim?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Were some of these beatings that you saw done by persons
15 who worked inside the camp?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Could you please tell the court what you yourself saw,
18 and would you please start with a particular incident.
19 Even if you do not remember the name of the victim, can
20 you say what you yourself saw. If you know the names of
21 the persons, the people who were doing the beating, what
22 happened, can you please tell us.
23 A. There were some guards for instance who came from other
24 towns in Bosnia-Herzegovina, Srebenica, Zepca who were
25 there, as they were chased away by the Serbs from their
1 towns and they were rather cruel with the prisoners, and
2 some of them did not stay for long. Some of them did
3 stay for longer periods, I cannot remember their names.
4 They also beat the prisoners rather badly. For
5 instance, on one occasion I saw Hazim hitting a prisoner
6 with a crutch. I do not know the name. This was before
7 he became deputy commander of the camp. On several
8 occasions, he would use a baseball bat.
9 Q. Sir, can you give us the details, if you remember, of
10 any -- the details of when you saw Mr. Hazim use a
11 baseball bat to beat prisoners?
12 A. Simply when he saw a prisoner, he would, with no cause,
13 take the bat, sometimes he would be carrying it on him,
14 and he would hit him, without any reason.
15 Q. Just so the record is clear, Mr. Hazim, can you give us
16 the last name of the Mr. Hazim you are referring to?
17 A. Delic.
18 Q. Did you ever see any other persons in the camp use a
19 baseball bat to beat prisoners?
20 A. Yes, Zenga.
21 Q. Can you please tell us what you yourself saw Zenga do
22 with the baseball bat.
23 A. As far as I remember, I did not see him actually hitting
24 people with a baseball bat, I heard this from other
1 Q. Do you remember seeing Zenga with the baseball bat?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Did you ever yourself see Zenga beat any prisoner?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Was it on one occasion or more than one occasion?
6 A. I saw him on one occasion when he set light to prisoners
7 and this was recorded on the video. I cannot remember
8 other occasions.
9 Q. Besides what you have already testified about Mici, were
10 there ever any other occasions when you heard Zenga
11 refer to his treatment of prisoners?
12 A. I heard from other Serb prisoners with whom I was quite
14 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honour, excuse me, I do not think he
15 should be testifying about what he heard from other
16 prisoners. That is hearsay; there is no name of those
17 other prisoners; no establishment of any kind of
18 reliability of what they might have said. The question
19 was specific as to what he heard from Zenga or what he
20 saw himself. It needs to be made clear that that is
21 what he is being asked and his answers need to be
22 specifically to that question, not what he heard from
23 other people whose names we cannot even get.
24 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Kindly limit your question to what he
25 himself saw and heard directly from the accused.
1 MS. McHENRY: Okay. With respect to this question, I will,
2 your Honour and then I may ask some other questions
3 which can be resolved at that time.
4 Sir, besides what you have already testified to
5 about Mici, do you remember ever hearing anything from
6 Zenga himself regarding his treatment of prisoners?
7 A. Yes, he would often say that they needed to be beaten.
8 He simply enjoyed it. He would probably do the same to
9 Croats if they had been there or somebody else.
10 Q. Sir, is it also the case that on some occasions you
11 heard from prisoners about their treatment from Zenga?
12 I am now not asking you what they told you, I am just
13 asking you if there were some occasions when prisoners
14 told you about their mistreatment by Zenga.
15 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honour, that gets to the same place in a
16 different direction. If he is permitted to testify that
17 prisoners told him, whether he says what it was they
18 said or not, the evidence is that they were telling him
19 things that Zenga was doing. We have not got the names
20 of any of those prisoners, there is no way to establish
21 the reliability of anything they said, so I object to
22 her going into that area at all unless the reliability
23 can be established in accordance with the Tadic rulings.
24 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: I do not see the necessity of that
25 question. It is not necessary. You are not referring
1 to a particular prisoner or a particular injury which is
2 he is reporting. Even if you were doing that -- will
3 you kindly pass to another question which is not
5 MS. McHENRY: Thank you. Sir, were there occasions when
6 you could hear beatings as they were going on, even if
7 you did not personally see them as they were going on?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Would you please explain what happened on those
10 occasions, what it was you could hear, if you know when
11 it was, how often?
12 A. These instances were frequent. You could see the
13 effects on them, the bruises they had. It was obvious
14 to look at them that they were exposed to torture.
15 Q. In addition to what you could see of the injuries on the
16 prisoners, is it the case that sometimes you could hear
17 beatings as they were going on?
18 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: I thought that was your last question
19 before he gave you the answer.
20 MS. McHENRY: That is right, your Honour. I think he gave
21 relevant evidence, but I am not sure it was exactly in
22 response to my question so I am repeating my question
23 because I think it may not have been clear to the
24 witness. Maybe if I can rephrase it it will be more
1 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: You are asking if he is hearing
2 beatings, even if he did not see them.
3 MS. McHENRY: That is exactly right, your Honour.
4 Sir, is it the case that on some occasions you
5 could hear a beating as it was going on, even if you
6 were not yourself able to see it; in other words could
7 you -- let me just ask that question.
8 A. Yes, there were such cases.
9 Q. How could you tell that there was a beating going on?
10 What kinds of things could you hear that let you know
11 there was a beating going on?
12 A. One could hear the cries of the men who were beaten up.
13 You could hear their moans and screams, and that is how
14 I knew.
15 Q. Okay. Sir, you just referred to a beating that was
16 recorded on video. First of all, sir, can you tell the
17 court who it was who --
18 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Perhaps we might have to stop here and
19 come back at 12.00.
20 (11.30 am)
21 (A short break)
22 (12.00 pm)
23 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Please remind the witness he is still
24 on his oath.
25 THE REGISTRAR: I would like to remind you you are still
1 under oath.
2 MS. McHENRY: May I ask that the witness's microphone be
3 turned on? Thank you.
4 Sir, you indicated that there was a particular
5 beating that was recorded on video; is that correct?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Would you please tell the court who recorded it on
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Could you please tell the court who it was who made the
11 tape recording, the video recording? Who was it?
12 A. I made the video recording.
13 Q. Would you please tell the judges exactly what you
14 recorded with your video camera?
15 A. First I recorded the prisoners in the hangar, those who
16 were in the big hangar, in the back, and then I recorded
17 faces of the prisoners and later I heard some cries and
18 screams which were coming from the back of the hangar.
19 Then I went there and I saw that two of the guards whose
20 names were Zijad Landzo and Osman Dedic, that they were
21 beating two prisoners and I recorded that with a
22 camera. I cannot remember exactly the names of the
23 prisoners. On that occasion, they were beating them,
24 and then burnt the socks on the feet of one of them, and
25 then they were burning for about a minute, a minute and
1 a half, then I stopped the recording and I left.
2 Q. Sir, let me go back for a minute. When you say that
3 this occurred in the back of the hangar, do you mean
4 inside the hangar toward the back or do you mean outside
5 the hangar in the back of the hangar?
6 A. The abuse took place in the back of the hangar, the big
7 hangar. It was behind the big hangar.
8 Q. Was it inside the hangar or outside the hangar in the
9 back of the hangar?
10 A. It was outside the hangar, behind it, behind the
11 back side of it.
12 Q. The prisoners, can you just tell the judges a little
13 more explicitly what you saw; for instance were the
14 prisoners clothed or not clothed?
15 A. One of them was completely naked and you could see
16 bruises on his back, and the other one had trousers and
17 socks on, which one of the guards, as I said, later set
18 on fire. That is it.
19 Q. Could you describe what you saw exactly in more detail,
20 what you remember about the beating; for instance, do
21 you know -- can you describe how it was and who it was
22 who set the prisoner's socks on fire?
23 A. The socks were set on fire by Zenga. Zenga set the
24 socks on fire on this prisoner, I think he was a taxi
25 driver, as far as I can recall, I cannot remember
1 exactly. I cannot remember who it was who was beating
2 the other prisoner who was completely naked.
3 Q. Was the prisoner a taxi driver whose name you do not
5 A. I cannot remember either of the names of the two, the
6 one whose socks were set on fire, he was a taxi driver
7 as far as I can remember.
8 Q. How far away, sir, were you when you filmed this beating
9 and torture?
10 A. Five to six metres, something like that.
11 Q. When you were present, how long were you present filming
13 A. Perhaps two or three minutes, because the batteries were
14 running down on the camera and then I left.
15 Q. Why did you stop recording? In other words, was the
16 beating finished or did you stop for some other reason?
17 A. As I said, the batteries were running flat.
18 Q. When you left was the beating still going on?
19 A. That I do not know. I do not know whether it continued
20 or not.
21 Q. Sir, do you know approximately when this was? Even if
22 you do not remember a month, or what your duties were
23 at that time?
24 A. My duties were also those of a driver. It was some time
25 in summer.
1 Q. Sir, what happened to this videotape?
2 A. It stayed behind in Konjic, in the house where I had
4 Q. Do you know where the video is now?
5 A. No, I do not.
6 Q. Sir, did you yourself intervene at all to stop what was
7 going on?
8 A. I did not intervene because there was nothing I could
9 do, because I was just a guard, same as they were, and
10 my word would not have been of any help.
11 Q. Sir, were you asked, when you were first interviewed by
12 the Office of the Prosecutor, were you asked whether or
13 not you had recorded any video or beatings?
14 A. I did not understand the question.
15 Q. When you were first interviewed by Mr. Milner from the
16 Office of the Prosecutor, were you asked about whether
17 or not you had videotaped any mistreatment of prisoners?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Did you tell the truth about that at that time?
20 A. No, I did not.
21 Q. Why not?
22 A. I guess because I was afraid of saying that I had taped
24 Q. Sir, during the time you were at Celebici camp did any
25 prisoners ever die?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Approximately how many prisoners died when you were
3 working in Celebici?
4 A. As far as I can recall, perhaps 13 or 15. I am not
6 Q. Do you know how these prisoners died?
7 A. Some died probably due to the beatings, exhaustion,
8 perhaps age.
9 Q. Did any guards ever tell you anything about their own
10 involvement in the death of any prisoners?
11 A. No.
12 Q. Do you know the names of any prisoners who died while
13 you were working in the camp?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Can you give us the names of all the prisoners that
16 died -- all the names that you remember of the prisoners
17 who died.
18 A. I remember Klimenta Zeljko.
19 Q. Is that the only name you remember at this time, sir?
20 A. Yes, I just cannot remember.
21 Q. With respect to Mr. Klimenta, how did he die?
22 A. One morning when the prisoners went outside to go to the
23 toilet and for the morning wash, one of the guards was
24 making jokes with him that he was going to kill him
25 and he had a bullet in the barrel. I do not know if he
1 had known about it, he fired the bullet and he hit him,
2 that is how he was killed, at least that was what he
3 said. Whether that was true or not I do not know.
4 Q. Did you hear this from the guard who killed the
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Do you know the name of that guard?
8 A. His name was Samir -- I cannot remember his last name.
9 Q. Did Mr. Klimenta have a nickname?
10 A. Keljo.
11 Q. Besides what you have already -- sir, did you ever see
12 any corpses while you were in the camp?
13 A. Yes, twice.
14 Q. Could you please tell the judges what you saw about --
15 exactly what happened when you saw the corpses, how it
16 was that you saw them, what you could see?
17 A. They were wrapped in some blankets, we could not see
18 their bodies, and I was ordered to drive them to the
19 morgue in Konjic and the circumstances of their death,
20 that I did not know.
21 Q. First of all, was this on two separate occasions that
22 you saw these corpses, or was there one occasion when
23 you saw two corpses?
24 A. Separate occasions.
25 Q. Was this at the same time that Keljo was killed, or were
1 these two occasions on different occasions?
2 A. I cannot remember precisely when it happened.
3 Q. Is it possible that one of the corpses you saw was
4 Keljo's or not? Can you answer that question?
5 A. I do not know.
6 Q. Did these two occasions when you were ordered to drive
7 the corpses to the morgue, was this during the time that
8 you were a driver in the camp?
9 A. While I was a driver.
10 Q. Yes. Did these occasions -- were you ordered to drive
11 these corpses to the morgue because you were a driver?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Do you remember who ordered you to bring these corpses
14 to the morgue?
15 A. I am not 100 per cent certain. I think it was Hazim
16 Delic, but I am not certain.
17 Q. Where were the bodies when you first saw them?
18 A. They were inside a car, in the back of a car.
19 Q. Do you know who loaded the bodies into the car?
20 A. No, I do not.
21 Q. Were you ever told the names of who these bodies were?
22 A. As far as I can recall, no.
23 Q. Can you tell us where the morgue or funeral -- can you
24 tell us where it was that you brought the bodies to,
25 more specifically? For instance, was it a morgue or was
1 it a funeral company? Where was it located?
2 A. It was a funeral company in Konjic, in the town.
3 I cannot remember, I think it was close to the MUP where
4 the cemetery was.
5 Q. When you got to the funeral company, did you have to
6 give them any paperwork? Did they ask whose bodies they
7 were? Would you please tell us exactly what happened
8 when you got to the funeral company?
9 A. They did not ask for any documents, they simply took
10 them and perhaps they received a telephone call earlier
11 as to what to do with the corpses, I do not know.
12 Q. Going back for a minute to when Keljo -- Mr. Klimenta was
13 killed, do you know, was he killed also during the time
14 that you were a driver?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Were you a driver most of the time you worked in the
17 camp, sir?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. In addition to your two occasions driving bodies to the
20 funeral company, do you know whether or not the funeral
21 company mortuary van also occasionally visited the camp
22 to pick up bodies?
23 A. As far as I could see, no, I never saw them. Perhaps
24 they did come when I was not there. Perhaps a vehicle
25 was there, I was not paying any attention to that.
1 Perhaps it was a civilian vehicle that drove them,
2 because many vehicles came and went.
3 Q. Sir, were there any investigations into the deaths of
4 any of the prisoners, the 13 to 15 prisoners who died
5 while you worked in the camp?
6 A. As far as I know, no.
7 Q. Were there any investigations into the beatings of
9 A. No, there were not.
10 Q. Sir, in addition to what you have already testified to,
11 did any of, besides what you heard from Mr. Landzo and
12 this person -- I am sorry, what did you say the name of
13 the guard was who told you about what happened to Keljo,
14 Mr. Klimenta?
15 A. Samir.
16 Q. Do you know whether or not it also could have been Amir?
17 A. Samir, Almir, something like that.
18 Q. Sir, besides what you have talked about or what you
19 heard from Zenga and from Samir or Almir, did you ever
20 hear anyone else who worked in the camp say anything
21 about their own involvement in beating and other
22 mistreatment of prisoners? With respect to
23 mistreatment, I am including sexual assaults.
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Can you please tell us from whom you heard this and what
1 was said?
2 A. I heard from Hazim Delic, I heard him say that he had
3 already reached number 18, that he had raped 18 Serb
4 women, and he said that he was going to stop once he
5 reached number 100.
6 Q. Sir, were prisoners beaten in Mr. Mucic's presence?
7 A. No.
8 Q. Did Mr. Mucic know that prisoners were beaten when he was
9 not present?
10 MR. OLUJIC: Objection, your Honour. The witness has already
11 said no, and I do not know why the distinguished
12 representative of the Prosecution insists. He said he
13 was not there and he said he did not know.
14 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: The two questions are not the same.
15 The first one, were prisoners beaten in Mucic's
16 presence; he said no. The second question: whether he
17 knew that they were beaten when he was not there. They
18 are two different questions. I hope you understand
19 that. You can go on.
20 MS. McHENRY: Thank you. Sir, did Mr. Mucic know that
21 prisoners were beaten when he was not present?
22 A. He probably knew when he came from town, because he
23 would visit the prison, as he could probably see on them
24 some consequences, bruises.
25 Q. Do you know whether -- did you yourself ever speak to
1 Mr. Mucic about the beatings that occurred when he was
2 not present?
3 A. As far as I can recall, when we spoke he said that he
4 was doing everything within his powers and he was not
5 able to protect when he was not there.
6 Q. Do I understand you, sir, to mean that you did talk to
7 him about the beatings, and then he gave you this
8 answer; is that correct?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Can you please tell us more specifically what you
11 remember telling Mr. Mucic about the beatings?
12 A. I cannot remember precisely what I had said.
13 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: He said he cannot remember.
14 MS. McHENRY: Sir, even if you cannot remember precisely
15 what you said, do you ever remember discussing with him
16 a specific incident, when you either saw or heard a
17 beating occurring?
18 A. Yes, on one occasion some soldiers came from outside the
19 camp and then they beat one prisoner, and then he
20 shouted a lot, and the next day I told him that these
21 prisoners came from the outside and he said that he
22 could not prevent it. If he had been there perhaps he
23 probably would have prevented it, because there were
24 these other units and other people who were more
25 dangerous to whom one could say nothing. They could
1 simply come to the prison to do whatever they wanted.
2 Q. When you say you told him about this incident, how do
3 you mean by him? Who did you tell about this incident
4 where the prisoner was screaming a lot?
5 A. To Zdravko Mucic.
6 Q. Thank you. Did you tell Mr. Mucic from how far away you
7 could hear the screams of this prisoner?
8 A. You could hear screaming at quite a distance.
9 Q. Do you remember what you told Mr. Mucic about how far
10 away you could hear the screams from?
11 A. I cannot recall.
12 Q. Do you also remember talking to Mr. Mucic about the fact
13 that persons who worked in the camp beat prisoners?
14 A. I think I did.
15 Q. Can you please tell us what you remember; for instance,
16 who did you tell him was mistreating prisoners when he
17 was not there?
18 A. I said how Hazim was mistreating the prisoners, and some
19 other guards, like Zenga and the soldiers coming from
20 other parts of Bosnia, from other towns in
21 Bosnia-Herzegovina. When I said that he would say,
22 "well I am doing the best I can". When he was there he
23 would say nobody would touch them.
24 Q. Did you give Mr. Mucic a copy of your videotape of Zenga
25 and Mr. Osman Dedic beating and torturing the prisoners?
1 A. No.
2 Q. Why not?
3 A. First I was a little scared, and secondly, I thought
4 perhaps they did not know. I do not know why.
5 I thought they would not do anything because I had done
7 Q. Do you know if anyone else besides you ever spoke to
8 Mr. Mucic about the mistreatment of prisoners when he was
9 not present?
10 A. I do not know.
11 Q. Did you ever see Mr. Mucic ask a prisoner how he received
12 his injuries?
13 A. I do not know, I cannot remember.
14 Q. Will you please tell the court exactly what Mr. Mucic did
15 to prevent or punish the mistreatment of prisoners?
16 A. As far as I can remember, sometimes he would shout at
17 Hazim and at some of the guards, telling them off for
18 beating them, but as for any concrete steps I do not
19 know exactly. Maybe he did, but I cannot remember.
20 Q. Do you yourself know of any guards who were ever
21 disciplined for the mistreatment of prisoners?
22 A. No, I do not know.
23 Q. Was the mistreatment going on at Celebici camp known
24 outside the camp?
25 A. There were many stories going around town from the
1 locals that the prisoners were being tortured, and one
2 could hear also over the Serb media, the radio. My
3 father told me that I should abandon the prison because
4 things were happening there that he had heard of, from
5 other people probably.
6 Q. Did you yourself ever hear any radio reports about the
7 mistreatment going on at Celebici during the time you
8 were working there?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Did anyone ever ask you in any cafes or when you were in
11 the town about the mistreatment in Celebici?
12 A. I cannot remember. I think not.
13 Q. You mentioned before, sir, in your testimony that there
14 was a time when the Croats -- I am sorry.
15 Sir, do you know who Mr. Mucic's superior was?
16 A. Mr. Zejnil Delalic.
17 Q. How do you know that?
18 A. By the stories of other people and from the soldiers.
19 Q. Did Mr. Mucic ever refer to Zejnil Delalic?
20 A. I do not quite understand the question.
21 Q. Did you ever hear Mr. Mucic talk about Mr. Zejnil Delalic?
22 A. Perhaps on a couple of occasions, as far as I can
23 remember, but nothing significant. That is why I do not
24 remember it.
25 Q. Sir, do you know if Mr. Mucic ever spoke to Mr. Zejnil
1 Delalic about the conditions in the camp?
2 MR. O'SULLIVAN: Your Honour, he just answered the question.
3 His answer was that nothing significant was ever
4 discussed as far as he knows between these two men,
5 Mucic and Delalic. His answer was clear, I believe.
6 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: I do not know how that covers the next
7 question. It is a more specific question. If he does
8 not know, he will say so.
9 MS. McHENRY: Sir, do you know if Mr. Mucic ever spoke to
10 Mr. Zejnil Delalic about the conditions in the camp?
11 A. Yes, he did. I just remembered. On one occasion he was
12 saying that there were quite a number of old men, and
13 there were even some minors there and that there were
14 innocent people who should be released and anyway, it
15 was difficult to feed them because there was a shortage
16 of food. After that, some releases of prisoners did
18 Q. Sir, if I can just clarify, when you say "he", who are
19 you referring to? When you say "he was saying that
20 there were a number of old men and minors and innocent
21 people", who was saying that?
22 A. Pavo, I was thinking of Zdravko Mucic.
23 Q. In that conversation, did he indicate anything about
24 Zejnil Delalic?
25 A. I cannot remember.
1 Q. Sir, I am not sure if I understood your question.
2 MR. O'SULLIVAN: Your Honour, he gave an answer, he did not
3 pose a question. I think his answer was quite clear.
4 He said he could not remember.
5 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: That is sufficient. If he cannot
6 remember, he cannot remember.
7 MS. McHENRY: That is right, your Honour, I am not going to
8 ask him what he can remember. Maybe it is clear to
9 Defence counsel, but given that he has previously said
10 he knows that there was a conversation between Mr. Mucic
11 and Mr. Delalic about the conditions in the camp, I can
12 at least try to clarify what this witness remembers, if
13 anything, about that, because frankly, your Honours,
14 I am confused.
15 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Why ask him if he says he cannot
16 remember anything about that conversation?
17 MS. McHENRY: Sir, did I understand you correctly that
18 there was a conversation between Mr. Mucic and Mr. Delalic
19 about conditions in the camp and you just cannot
20 remember what was said about it?
21 MR. O'SULLIVAN: That has been asked and answered, your
23 MS. McHENRY: I do not believe so, your Honour.
24 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: He says he cannot remember that
1 MS. McHENRY: Your Honour, that is right and I am just
2 clarifying because as I --
3 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: That he still cannot remember it?
4 MS. McHENRY: No, that he remembers that there was a
6 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: But he does not remember what --
7 MS. McHENRY: The details, exactly. That is what I am
8 trying to clarify because I want the record to be
9 clear. I at least want to understand. That is why, as
10 I understand the record now, the witness has said that
11 he knows there was a conversation between Mr. Mucic and
12 Mr. Delalic about conditions in the camp.
13 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: But he cannot remember --
14 MS. McHENRY: But he cannot remember the specifics.
15 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Yes, that is what he has said.
16 MS. McHENRY: May I just ask if my understanding is
17 correct, your Honour?
18 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Okay, ask him.
19 MS. McHENRY: Sir, am I correct that you remember that
20 there was a conversation but you do not remember the
22 A. Pavo told me on one occasion that he had spoken to
23 Zejnil Delalic about the conditions of the prisoners and
24 that there were quite a lot of old men, children and
25 innocent people, they should be released because they
1 were a burden. They did not have enough food.
2 Q. Thank you. Sir, did the Red Cross -- sir, do you know
3 if there was any preparation done for the Red Cross
5 A. Before the Red Cross came orders arrived to treat the
6 Serb prisoners better, and then they gave them a chance
7 to shave, to bathe, to improve their appearance, and
8 that is it.
9 Q. Did conditions change after the visit of the Red Cross?
10 A. Yes, for a short time, but then things resumed as
11 before. Some of them continued to be beaten, and
12 I think that after the Red Cross visit they were allowed
13 to bathe.
14 Q. Sir, when you say that orders came down before the
15 Red Cross came to make the prisoners look better, do you
16 know who gave those orders?
17 A. I do not know who made the orders.
18 Q. Sir, you stated previously -- I am sorry.
19 During the summer when you worked there, can you
20 estimate approximately how many prisoners were in the
22 A. Perhaps about 150, 120.
23 Q. About how many prisoners were in the camp when you left
24 Celebici, I believe you said some time around October or
1 A. I cannot remember exactly, because some of them had been
2 released and how many exactly remained, I do not know.
3 Q. Who was commander at the time you left the camp?
4 A. I think that it was still Zdravko Mucic, but I am not
6 Q. Why did you leave the camp, sir?
7 A. Some conflicts had occurred, or there was strife between
8 the Croatian and the Muslim forces, so I did not feel
9 safe any more so I left.
10 Q. Sir, you have previously told the judges about the fact
11 that at least on one occasion you videotaped some of the
12 camp. Did anyone else, to your knowledge, ever
13 videotape parts of the camp?
14 A. On several occasions Zdravko Mucic made some videos and
15 some people from the Red Cross.
16 Q. When Mr. Mucic made some of the videos, were you present
17 on some of those occasions?
18 A. Yes.
19 MS. McHENRY: Your Honours, I would now like to show the
20 witness excerpts from Prosecution Exhibit 110, which is
21 also M1B. I would ask the assistance of the technical
22 support people.
23 MR. MORAN: Your Honour, we would object -- I do not believe
24 those are in evidence for all purposes. I think they
25 were only introduced into evidence for purposes of
1 identification as I recall. It was a limited admission,
2 so I would object to this witness being shown something
3 that is not in evidence.
4 MS. McHENRY: Your Honours, as I understand it, the tapes
5 are in evidence. This witness was present and can
6 identify the excerpts that are going to be shown to him
7 and just as in fact the Defence attorneys have
8 themselves frequently shown excerpts of videos to see if
9 a witness can identify and/or recognise things, the
10 Prosecution must be allowed to do the same thing.
11 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Who tendered them?
12 MS. McHENRY: Mr. Niemann tendered them. These are the
13 seized videotapes from Mr. Mucic's apartment. This
14 witness can identify and explain portions of those
15 videotapes. He can identify persons, he can recognise
17 MR. MORAN: Your Honour, it seems to me that I think talking
18 about these on page 6513 of the transcript, Mr. Niemann
19 was trying to get them in and the presiding judge said:
20 "Actually, I prefer you to continue yourself to
21 the chain of custody. When the issue arises on the
22 contents of the tape you might be able to do so because
23 you might not be able to do it through him", him being
24 Mr. Panzer.
25 MS. McHENRY: Your Honour, as I understand it, what Defence
1 counsel is reading is exactly one of the reasons we want
2 to show the court these videos. Mr. Panzer cannot
3 identify or explain what is going on or recognise
4 people, since he was not there. This witness himself
5 was present on a number of occasions and can recognise
6 events, so in exactly the same way that the Defence
7 attorneys have frequently used excerpts from these very
8 videotapes, which had not been even at that time
9 admitted into evidence at all, for purposes of seeing if
10 the witness can identify them, certainly this witness
11 must be allowed to, with respect to these tapes.
12 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: If you intend to tender it through him
13 as the maker of that video, then you might be able to
14 tender them, but I am not sure you are claiming that he
15 is the maker.
16 MS. McHENRY: Your Honour, in fact this witness will
17 testify that in fact there are portions of the videotape
18 that he himself took with Mr. Mucic's camera, but besides
19 that, as Defence counsel has frequently done and as the
20 Prosecution has, I believe, on occasion done, if this
21 witness can identify what is happening and say it fairly
22 and accurately records what was actually happening, it
23 should not be necessary for the Prosecution to call the
24 maker of the video. He was present, he can watch the
25 video and he can say "yes, I recognise that. I was
1 there. I know who that person is". I believe generally
2 just the way we have photos and many videotapes, it is
3 not necessary to have the maker there as long as someone
4 can authenticate them and explain their relevance.
5 Defence counsel is now saying "you could not show them
6 to Mr. Panzer because he cannot recognise them or what
7 they are", and now saying this witness, who was himself
8 present, cannot even see them for purposes of telling
9 your Honours, "yes, I was there. I saw this", or
10 "I know what this is", or even "I recognise this
11 person's voice".
12 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: If he is party to the making of the
13 video definitely he might tender it as part of his
14 undertaking, but outside that, I think it might be
15 fairly difficult. If he was party to it ...
16 MR. MORAN: Your Honour, on direct, to me, this is a
17 relatively irregular procedure. Usually what I have
18 seen is -- if I am going to introduce it through one of
19 my witnesses, the witness outside the courtroom views
20 the tape or views the photographs or views whatever it
21 is, and then can testify that it fully, fairly,
22 accurately depicts whatever it depicts. It is not
23 normal, in my experience, to show it to the fact finders
24 to determine whether or not this guy can identify it.
25 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Maybe your experience might be a
1 limited one. If a person was party to the making of a
2 particular thing, he is entitled to indicate what aspect
3 of it is --
4 MR. MORAN: Clearly, your Honour, as long as he can identify
5 this tape as the tape.
6 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: If he can now tell us if the content --
7 if his participation is part of it, he can say so.
8 MR. MORAN: I agree with your Honour. It is just things that
9 he was not a party to, a party to the making of.
10 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: I hear he is, except that is not his
12 MS. McHENRY: Your Honour, if I may just clarify, it is the
13 case that with respect to some of the videotapes, he
14 himself was present and a party to the making of it; he
15 himself participated in the video, and I will say that
16 the witness himself has seen at least portions of this
17 video, and that is one of the reasons I know he was
19 It is also the case that Defence counsel,
20 including all Defence counsel, have on occasion shown
21 excerpts of video at least for identification purposes,
22 so that if something happened at a certain area, this
23 witness can at least testify as to if he recognised that
24 area and what it is; and/or if he recognises the voice.
25 So it is the case that with respect to some videos, this
1 witness was involved and present, and I can seek to show
2 those first.
3 With respect to the other videotapes -- and again
4 these are not lengthy excerpts, I estimate a half hour
5 or less for everything -- this witness should be allowed
6 to testify if he can recognise people's voices and/or
7 places, and particularly given in search warrant cases
8 where evidence is seized. Given that the Prosecution is
9 not permitted to call the accused, it may have to be
10 that someone other than the person making them can
11 testify as to what is in there and whether or not at
12 least -- even if they do not say this fairly and
13 accurately was taped, they can say, "I recognise where
14 this is", or, "I recognise this person's voice", or,
15 "I recognise who this is", and I think that will be
16 extremely helpful to your Honours in evaluating the
17 relevance and the weight to be given to these videotapes
18 which were taken. But if your Honours wish, I can
19 certainly start with the ones that he himself was
20 involved in and present at.
21 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: On the consideration that he is also
22 party to the making of it or he was there at the time
23 when it was made, he can tender them.
24 MS. McHENRY: Okay, your Honours.
25 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: At least he can identify the areas in
1 which he was involved.
2 MS. McHENRY: Yes, your Honour.
3 MS. RESIDOVIC: Your Honours, we have been listening to our
4 learned colleague for five minutes explaining to us that
5 this witness participated, and through his testimony we
6 only heard that he made a videotape which was left in
7 Konjic, so that there were no grounds laid. There were
8 certain leading matters put to the witness. Something
9 else I wish to draw attention to is something that
10 I already mentioned when these exhibits were identified
11 through the witness Panzer. At the time, I made it
12 clear that our general objection was regarding the whole
13 chain of custody and the procedure. When we tendered
14 something for identification, we indicated the source.
15 This time the Prosecutor has not proven the chain of
16 custody of these tapes, and we would like to have the
17 opportunity to argue this matter on some occasion to see
18 whether these exhibits have been admitted into evidence
19 or not.
20 We are now going to be shown a tape through a
21 witness who has nothing in common with this, and I think
22 that this is improper as procedure, and therefore before
23 any of those allegedly seized tapes are shown in this
24 courtroom that we first discuss this basic issue which
25 we have notified on the basis of Rule 63, and we also
1 made a motion to that effect, pursuant to provision 95.
2 Your direct answer to my question was that we would
3 argue these motions before these exhibits are admitted
4 into evidence. Thank you.
5 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: I think there is a lot of confusion
6 here, that confusion in the minds of counsel or
7 perhaps -- I do not know where it arises from. What you
8 are speaking to about this particular article is that it
9 was admitted under the principle of the chain of custody
10 and that is where it is. It has not been admitted as an
11 exhibit in the proceedings as a whole. Nobody has said
12 that it has been so admitted. If a part author of this
13 exhibit surfaces, and he is able to show that he also a
14 maker of it, then you may have the arguments whether
15 indeed he is.
16 If he is, he is entitled to tell the Tribunal what
17 part he has played in it, and the exhibit is entitled to
18 identify that aspect, and it could be admitted for that
19 purpose. But if you can show that he is not entitled to
20 say so, and he is not the maker of that particular
21 video, obviously the argument falls to the ground. It
22 is not enough merely to say that unless a particular
23 thing is -- so many people are involved in the making of
24 a thing. Any of them is entitled to make his claim to
25 that particular exhibit, so you do not really rule him
1 out because he is not the dominant maker. There might
2 be a dominant maker. There might be a subsidiary one.
3 All of them are entitled to say what part they played in
4 the whole exercise.
5 Here, I agree, there might be a problem in which a
6 witness has not indicated that he is also party to the
7 making of it. That is the only thing I say.
8 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honour, I was wanting to rise to say
9 pretty much what you just said. It seems to me the
10 proper way for the Prosecution to handle this is, as we
11 have handled it over here on this side of the room, and
12 that is when we have thought there were segments from a
13 tape that were admissible through a witness because that
14 witness was at the scene and could recognise the scene
15 by seeing the video and therefore authenticate it, we
16 have made excerpts and only presented those excerpts.
17 What they are trying to do is present a four hour tape
18 that this witness maybe saw ten minutes of. We are
19 about to have an hour and a half break. I would suggest
20 that the proper way is for the Prosecution to make an
21 excerpt of the parts they think might be admissible
22 through this witness and do it that way, because this is
23 not the way to admit the entire tape.
24 The issue, I think, your Honour, is whether or not
25 this witness was there when the tape was made and
1 recognises what he sees on the tape as a fair and
2 accurate representation of what he saw with his own
3 eyes. If he can say that, perhaps it is admissible
4 regardless of where it came from. If he recognises it,
5 it is just like a photograph or anything else. But to
6 try to get the entire tape in because a witness can see
7 part of it I think is improper and I think the
8 Prosecution has time now to do what I think you have
9 suggested and what I am suggesting in agreement.
10 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Actually, we will have to break now.
11 I will come back at 2.30 when I think you might have
12 thought about it.
13 MS. McHENRY: Thank you, your Honours.
14 (1.00 pm)
15 (Adjourned until 2.30 pm)
1 (2.30 pm)
2 MR. ACKERMAN: May I be heard just very briefly with regard
3 to the issue we were discussing right before lunch, your
5 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Yes, let us hear it.
6 MR. ACKERMAN: Thinking about the issue over lunch, it has
7 occurred to me that the following situation exists right
8 now: there is pending before this Trial Chamber a
9 motion to suppress everything that came out of the
10 searches that were conducted by the Austrian police in
11 Vienna. If that motion to suppress is granted by this
12 Trial Chamber, then none of the items that were seized
13 as a result of those searches could be used in any way
14 in evidence in this case, at least that is my
15 understanding of the law of search and seizure. If the
16 search was illegal or improper and the items are to be
17 suppressed by this Trial Chamber, then the Prosecution's
18 attempt, for instance, today to use portions of videos
19 that were a result of those searches, would not have
20 been permitted because they would have been suppressed
21 by this Trial Chamber on the issue of the legality of
22 the search and seizure. That issue was raised at least
23 by the Delalic Defence by the filing of a proper
24 pre-trial motion and it seems to me that it must be
25 argued and decided before any evidence resulting from
1 those searches could be used in any way before this
2 Tribunal. I do not know what the solution to that is,
3 but it seems to me something must be dealt with in that
4 regard first.
5 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Can you respond?
6 MS. McHENRY: Yes, your Honour. I will just point out that
7 there is no pending motion to suppress. It is the case
8 that the Delalic Defence, quite properly, filed
9 initially a motion to suppress and on 9th October 1996,
10 there was an order by this Trial Chamber in which it
12 "We hereby deny the Defence motion for the
13 exclusion of evidence."
14 So there is no pending motion to suppress. It is
15 correct that there was one previously, but there is not
16 one now. In any event even if that were the case which,
17 of course, it is not, your Honours we would still then
18 seek to at least have this witness identify the
19 materials and then if at some later point your Honours
20 decide that the material is not properly before you as
21 evidence, you may disregard it. So I would ask that we
22 just continue. Thank you.
23 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Yes?
24 MS. RESIDOVIC: Your Honour, perhaps I was not precise
25 before the adjournment. I just wanted to draw attention
1 to this question. On 28th May, 5th and 9th June 1996,
2 Mr. Delalic's Defence requested suppression of all
3 materials that were seized in Munich. Until three
4 months ago, the Prosecutor did not try in any way to
5 prove the legality of this procedure. Judge McDonald
6 decided to give order to the Prosecutor to return all
7 the items they did not need and that they could be used
8 for preparations and that we were informed that we
9 should raise the issue of admissibility once the issue
10 is raised before the court.
11 This Trial Chamber directed us towards this as
12 well. Therefore before presenting evidence -- before
13 the testimony of the Austrian police, we submitted, on
14 the basis of this decision of 9th October, another
15 request based on Rule 95, and again we are raising this
16 issue, and we believe that before this issue is decided
17 on there can be no permission for anything seized on the
18 premises to be used as evidence in the court or
19 presented to other witnesses. We believe that the way
20 in which this evidence was obtained would threaten the
21 legality of the procedure before the court.
22 We have not presented our final arguments yet. We
23 have heard the witnesses and the court is aware of
24 numerous problems that are there, but we believe, and
25 that is the last thing that I would like to say in this
1 respect, that before deciding on this issue, this
2 current request of the Defence, the aforementioned
3 documents cannot be used in the proceedings. Thank
5 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: I think I have heard the arguments --
6 MS. RESIDOVIC: Excuse me, your Honours, just one more
7 sentence. The distinguished colleague McHenry presented
8 the decision, however, I call upon her words written on
9 the transcript and the tape on 22nd August, when during
10 an interview with Mr. Delalic, she presented some of the
11 documents and repeated exactly what I am saying now.
12 The use for the possibility of continuing the procedure
13 and our right, is the right that we are presenting now
14 and that that decision is what we expect from the court
15 before anything that was seized is presented as
16 evidence. Those are the words of Ms. McHenry recorded
17 both in the transcript and in the video recording.
18 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: From my understanding, I could not
19 think what is being done now is tendering the tape as
20 evidence in the proceedings. I think the Prosecution is
21 trying to get this witness to identify any portions of
22 the tapes which he has any knowledge in the production
23 of such tapes.
24 When perhaps it comes to tendering the tape,
25 I think the proper procedure will be adopted. You can
1 proceed with the witness.
2 MS. McHENRY: Thank you, your Honour. Your Honour, while
3 we are waiting for the witness I will just inform the
4 court and the Defence, the video section has been
5 working and I believe we will have some excerpts made in
6 a separate tape to show the witness, at least with
7 respect to one, because of time issues they did not have
8 time and what I would suggest is the procedure adopted
9 by the Defence attorneys, which is to show him certain
10 excerpts, which I believe he can recognise, and then
11 afterwards, after he has recognised them, then have the
12 video section make a separate tape and that will then be
13 different, but just for time, they did not have time to
14 do it beforehand, but we will not be showing the witness
15 the entire tape, nor will we be trying through this
16 witness to get the entire tape in.
17 I would also ask, your Honours, just for purposes
18 of convenience, and I previously in fact yesterday told
19 the Defence attorneys this, ask that an analyst, who is
20 very familiar with the videotapes, from the Office of
21 the Prosecutor, be permitted to be present in the video
22 room even though normally he would not be permitted to
23 watch the proceedings, just so that he can help the
24 video people get to the correct section more quickly.
25 I previously have informed the Defence counsel. Just
1 with respect to Mr. Alistair McLeod and only during the
2 time the videos are being shown I would ask permission
3 for him to be in the video room with the technical
5 MR. MORAN: Your Honours, will Mr. McLeod be a witness, a fact
6 witness in the trial?
7 MS. McHENRY: He certainly is on our witness list and it is
8 possible he would be some sort of summary witness, but
9 if he is only present during the portions of the
10 videotape, I do not believe that could cause any problem
11 with his ultimate testimony, if it is necessary.
12 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honour, I just have one -- I really have
13 no response to what Ms. McHenry has just said, but I do
14 have a request. Consistent with the way this was
15 handled when the Defence wanted to use a tape just for
16 identification purposes with the witness Golubovic,
17 I would request that the sound either not be played or
18 that if it is, there be no interpretation of the
19 language on the tape since all the witness is going to
20 be asked to do is identify the tape, and the contents of
21 it are not being offered at this point, as I understand
22 it. That was what was done by the Chamber with
23 Golubovic when we offered it for identification, so
24 I think it would be fair to do it the same way.
25 MS. McHENRY: Your Honour, at least initially until he
1 recognises it, we do not have any objection, but it is
2 the case that we will be asking him, for instance, to
3 recognise certain voices and thus, since the witness was
4 present at the time, I believe it is entirely proper for
5 the translation -- for the sound to be heard and for the
6 translators to as much as possible translate.
7 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honour, translation will not assist him
8 in identification. That was the issue with Golubovic.
9 If he needs to hear it to help the identification, he
10 can hear it, but the translation does not enhance his
11 ability to identify it at all. It is just getting
12 before the Trial Chamber matters which are improper at
13 this point if all it is needed for is identification.
14 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: I think all we need is the sound at
15 this point.
16 (Witness entered court)
17 MS. McHENRY: That is proper, your Honour and if at some
18 point they are to be admitted into evidence, then we
19 will replay them with the translation, but that is fine,
20 your Honour, and I am sure translation would appreciate
22 Before we do that, I just have a couple of
23 questions, because I have generally finished my direct
24 examination, with only the videos. Let me ask, please,
25 just a couple of questions before we get to the videos.
1 Sir, you mentioned previously that when you were
2 first in the camp, there was a group associated with the
3 Ministry of the Interior that was investigating the
4 prisoners; is that correct?
5 A. Yes, correct.
6 Q. Did there come a time when this commission or group left
7 the prison, stopped working in the prison?
8 A. Yes, at one point everybody left the prison when the
9 questioning of the prisoners was completed. I cannot
10 exactly recall when this happened.
11 Q. Who was the commander at the time the commission left
12 the prison?
13 A. I do not know exactly at the time whether it was Zdravko
14 Mucic who had already been appointed commander when they
16 Q. Sir, was there a time when you were sent to the coast as
17 part of your duties as a driver?
18 A. I do not understand. To the coast?
19 Q. Was there a time when you were sent to a village on the
20 coast of Croatia called Podaci?
21 A. Yes, once I went to Croatia to pick up some supplies, it
22 was to the city of Split that I went -- no, somewhere
23 near Split, not exactly Split. I went to collect
24 supplies for the guards.
25 Q. What supplies were you picking up for the guards?
1 A. Those were mainly food items, sugar, wheat flour, tinned
3 Q. Where did you stay? Do you know whose house it was you
4 stayed at when you went to the coast?
5 A. When we went to Croatia we stayed in Podaci in the house
6 of Mr. Zejnil Delalic. That is where we stayed one
8 Q. Am I correct that Mr. Delalic -- at least you did not see
9 Mr. Delalic on that occasion?
10 A. No, I did not see him as far as I can recall.
11 MS. McHENRY: Thank you. Your Honour, now with the
12 assistance of the technical people, we would ask that
13 M1D, which is Prosecution Exhibit 112, be shown and at
14 various times I will stop to ask the witness if he can
15 recognise voices and/or identify people.
16 Sir, at the end of this, I will ask you whether or
17 not at any point you yourself are shown in the video,
18 but please I ask, because this is in open session, that
19 you not -- if I am asking you any questions, you not
20 identify when you are present and when you are not. Do
21 you understand? I am not sure I explained that very
22 well. In other words, sir, what I am saying is during
23 the session I may ask you some questions, I may stop the
24 tape and ask you some questions. Please do not state
25 whether or not you are on the video, since the video is
1 not being played in closed session. Do you understand?
2 Do not say whether or not you are present, whether or
3 not you can be seen on the video.
4 A. Yes.
5 MS. McHENRY: Did I understand your Honours that Mr. McLeod
6 may be permitted in the video room to help things --
7 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Yes, I think he can.
8 MS. McHENRY: Thank you, sir. I would ask that M1D be
10 (Videotape played)
11 MS. McHENRY: May we stop for a minute please?
12 (Videotape stopped)
13 MS. McHENRY: I thought the sound was going to be played
14 without the translation section, because I will be
15 asking this witness to identify certain voices, so
16 I would ask that the sound be played but just the
17 translation not work. First of all --
18 (Videotape played)
19 MS. McHENRY: If you could stop for one minute, please?
20 (Videotape stopped)
21 MS. McHENRY: Sir, do you recognise what this is? Not this
22 person, but do you recognise everything that has been
24 A. Yes, I do recognise it.
25 Q. What is it, sir?
1 A. This is a Serb prisoner whose name was Zara Mrkajic.
2 Q. Even before this, sir, when there were parts being
3 shown, do you know where this is taking place, this
4 video and what is happening? Let me just start off: do
5 you know where this video is being taken? Is it in
6 Celebici camp or somewhere outside of Celebici camp?
7 A. It was in the Celebici camp, in the office there was a
9 Q. Were you present at this party, sir?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Did you in fact tape some of this party?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Who else taped this party?
14 A. I cannot remember exactly who.
15 Q. Whose video camera was it?
16 A. The video camera belonged to Zdravko Mucic.
17 MS. McHENRY: I would like to ask the video section people
18 to go to the first section marked and I will ask the
19 witness if he recognises the voice, if you would play
20 that part?
21 (Videotape played)
22 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: I think that is sufficient time to
23 identify it.
24 MS. McHENRY: If you would please stop?
25 (Videotape stopped)
1 MS. McHENRY: Your Honour, I am in the difficult position
2 because I want the witness to identify a particular
3 voice saying a particular thing, but since I do not
4 speak Serbo-Croatian, I am not exactly sure when that
5 section has been said. I believe the video people may
6 know and if the video people -- the technician people
7 could inform me, even by a wave, whether or not the
8 section that I had asked be played, has that already
9 been heard, played?
10 Sir, did you hear someone say something about
11 things being stolen and prisoners coming out of jail
12 paying for being --
13 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: There is no translation here. How are
14 you going into the --
15 MS. McHENRY: I believe that my question -- if the witness
16 has heard it. It is not necessary -- the witness can
17 say whether or not he heard that section and if so who
18 said it, if he recognises the voice, without
19 your Honours having to hear the translation, if
20 I understand the correct procedure. Let me see if this
22 Sir, did you hear someone saying something about
23 the prisoners paying to come out of jail?
24 A. There were stories in town that money was being taken,
25 that some people were paying for these --
1 Q. Sir, let me just ask you, I am not asking you about
2 stories in town, I am asking whether or not in this
3 video you heard anyone say "Zara, how much did those
4 prisoners that came out of jail pay for?" Did you hear
5 that on the video?
6 A. On the recording that you showed? No. You could just
7 hear two voices saying something like "Merhaba Hussein
8 and Fujihad".
9 Q. I would just ask that that section I have indicated to
10 the video people, if that section could be played again,
11 with the sound, so the witness can hear the sound.
12 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: What is the relevance of that, what was
13 said in a party by somebody who might have been drunk?
14 JUDGE JAN: It might have been a joke.
15 MS. McHENRY: Your Honour, I believe those things may go to
16 the weight rather than the admissibility.
17 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Going to weight. I can see the
19 JUDGE JAN: It is some bantering, some light talk. How
20 would that help?
21 MS. McHENRY: Your Honour, I believe certainly the
22 Prosecution is entitled to present this evidence, and if
23 your Honours decide that it is banter and it is not
24 entitled to evidentiary weight or even if the
25 circumstances indicate that it is not reliable, that is
1 certainly your decision, but I certainly think the
2 Prosecution is permitted to have this witness identify
3 things said by persons, including this accused --
4 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Nobody stops the Prosecution bringing
5 whatever evidence it likes. Let him do it a little bit
6 more --
7 JUDGE JAN: None of your witnesses have said this, that they
8 paid to come out of prison, if you are trying to put
9 questions to that effect. Nobody has said this, that
10 they paid to get out.
11 MS. McHENRY: Let me then move forward to the next excerpt
12 I am asking. I would ask that the video people fast
13 forward to the next section that had been marked and,
14 sir -- I do not want to -- I will be asking you about if
15 you hear a sentence that has something to do with the --
16 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honour, let me interrupt. I thought the
17 way we had started this was that there were going to be
18 no translations of what was on the tape and that the
19 witness was just looking at them for the purposes of
20 identifying "yes, I recognise that scene. It was at
21 Celebici at the time indicated", and now Ms. McHenry is
22 giving us the translations. That gets in to the content
23 of the tapes and that is what is not yet admissible.
24 JUDGE JAN: There has been evidence that there was a
25 birthday party held for Mr. Pavo, some witnesses have
1 said that.
2 MR. ACKERMAN: That is true.
3 JUDGE JAN: This is the scene of that party.
4 MR. ACKERMAN: That is true, your Honour, but the context of
5 what was said at that party gets into the translations
6 and is putting evidence before this Tribunal when we
7 have not yet decided whether or not the content of these
8 tapes can be admitted. I thought what we were doing
9 here was just having this witness saying whether or not
10 he can identify these segments for the purpose of
11 identification only.
12 MS. McHENRY: If I may respond briefly, your Honour? It is
13 not the case that this Prosecution is now getting the
14 statements made into evidence for the truth of their
15 contents. What the Prosecution is now trying to do is
16 have the witness identify the voices of persons who said
17 particular things, because otherwise when this witness
18 goes back and the tapes are -- certainly, your Honour,
19 the fact that someone said something, at least now all
20 we are doing is having the witness identify the voice.
21 Had it been the case that the translation was being
22 given, it would not be me asking this, but there are a
23 number of important -- there are a number of statements
24 that the Prosecution wishes to get into evidence and, of
25 course, it is important who said those statements --
1 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: No, Ms. McHenry, we have accepted that
2 all he was doing is to identify his participation in the
3 tapes. We have also agreed that there will be no
4 translations of any portions of the tapes, so I do not
5 see how there can be a correlation between what you
6 would do and there being no translation, because even if
7 he identifies it and it was not translated, it is part
8 of the record. All he will do is identify this scene
9 and that is all, without translation.
10 MS. McHENRY: But certainly, your Honour, at the end, if
11 these tapes are admitted into evidence --
12 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: When admitted.
13 MS. McHENRY: That is correct, your Honour, and especially
14 given that this is not before a jury, rather than have
15 this witness come back to identify voices, we would ask
16 that he be permitted to identify voices now and that the
17 only reason this evidence is being introduced at the
18 present time is for identification purposes, and if
19 your Honours later on determine that the evidence is not
20 admissible then you can disregard it, but the fact that
21 this witness can identify voices about who said certain
22 things is extremely relevant, and the Prosecution is --
23 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: What is surprising to me, not only you,
24 almost every counsel when explanation is made, you
25 ignore the explanation and carry on with the argument.
1 You have agreed all he needs to do is to identify the
2 scene, and there should be no translation accompanying
3 it, so what use will it make if he goes about telling us
4 what was involved in it while the translation will not
5 be part of the record, at least for now.
6 MS. McHENRY: The translation will not be part of the
7 record, but the fact that the witness has identified --
8 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: A particular scene.
9 MS. McHENRY: A particular scene and a particular person as
10 having said certain things.
11 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Said what?
12 MS. McHENRY: For instance --
13 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: It is not translated.
14 MS. McHENRY: But the witness can understand it, so the
15 witness does not need translation.
16 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: That is his affair, but the court
17 itself does not have his translation and what was said
18 was not brought to the notice of the court. How does it
20 MS. McHENRY: It helps if this evidence is later on
21 admitted into evidence.
22 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: What is his evidence?
23 MS. McHENRY: His evidence would be that certain people
24 said things.
25 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: He cannot say that.
1 JUDGE JAN: He has already given an explanation. There were
2 some rumours in the town about this allegation. If
3 somebody raises it at the party, how would that be a
4 proof that he has not taken money? He has already said
5 that, that there were some rumours. It is a party-type
6 thing to happen.
7 MS. McHENRY: My questions have nothing to do with those
8 statements. I have moved on to entirely other
10 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Even what you are suggesting about his
11 hearing what they have said, he is not even expected to
12 give it as evidence of what he said. It is not entitled
13 to, because you have agreed the translation should not
14 be made. There is no way he can bring that into
15 evidence that he has --
16 JUDGE JAN: And there was drinking at the party. Some
17 people get their tongues loosened. How would that help
18 you? I just do not know.
19 MS. McHENRY: If I may make a proffer, I will give an
20 example. I certainly do not want to improperly give a
21 proffer, but I can give a proffer which I believe is
22 very relevant and the fact that people sometimes --
23 alcohol loosens their tongue does not mean that what
24 they say is entitled to no evidentiary weight whatsoever
25 and I think these are all questions that go to weight.
1 All the Prosecution is trying to do now is have voice
2 identification, but since there are many people speaking
3 during this party, in some way I have to direct the
4 witness's attention to a particular sentence that was
5 said and have him identify that sentence.
6 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: He is not the source of the translation
7 for this Tribunal, for this Trial Chamber, not the
8 witness. Our translation is from the booths and if they
9 are not to translate this he cannot tell us what it
11 MS. McHENRY: He cannot tell us what it says in English,
12 your Honour --
13 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: We do not expect him to.
14 MS. McHENRY: Given that his native language is
15 Serbo-Croatian --
16 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: We are not expecting a translation of
17 that language for the purpose. All he can identify is
18 what has been said and that is sufficient for him
19 identifying the persons in that tape. That is all.
20 MS. McHENRY: That is exactly what I am trying to do, your
21 Honour. I am trying to get him to identify the persons
22 in the tape who said a particular thing.
23 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Not said, because that is not part --
24 JUDGE JAN: In any case that sentence has not yet come.
25 MS. McHENRY: That is correct. The sentence I am about to
1 ask him --
2 JUDGE JAN: Has not yet come.
3 MS. McHENRY: But if I am permitted to play the tape and
4 ask him if he can identify the voice, I think this
5 witness is entitled to identify the voice.
6 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: But it will not be part of the
7 evidence, that is what I am telling you.
8 MS. McHENRY: I understand that the translation will not be
9 part of the evidence, the actual statement will not be
10 part of the evidence at this moment.
11 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Yes.
12 MS. McHENRY: I understand that, your Honour. If I can
13 have the next section played for the witness.
14 MR. OLUJIC: Your Honours, I apologise for intervening. My
15 client cannot see the witness so could the screen be
16 moved over a little bit without exposing the witness but
17 so that my client can see him? Thank you.
18 MS. McHENRY: I would like, and maybe this will help
19 matters, if you need a Serbo-Croatian translator we can
20 potentially get one. I would like the portion that is
21 marked as occurring at 11.02 to be played and if only
22 those words could be played I think it would assist the
24 (Videotape played)
25 (Videotape stopped)
1 MS. McHENRY: Sir, did you hear a sentence that began "when
2 will he come?"
3 A. I did.
4 Q. Did you recognise the voice of the person who said that?
5 A. I did.
6 Q. Whose voice is it?
7 A. It is the voice of Zdravko Mucic.
8 MS. McHENRY: Now I would just ask the video section to
9 play the rest of the tape in fast forward. There is no
10 need for sound now. We will just have the witness be
11 able to identify it.
12 (Videotape played)
13 MS. McHENRY: I think that should be fine. I just ask that
14 this be stopped now.
15 (Videotape stopped)
16 MS. McHENRY: Sir, was the rest of what you saw also this
17 same party?
18 A. Yes, it was the same party.
19 MS. McHENRY: Thank you, that is all I wish to show from
20 that tape. I would now ask -- I do not know if the
21 excerpts have been prepared or we should just use the
22 original and fast forward? I would ask that M1B be
23 shown. I would particularly ask, for the video section,
24 that the section beginning on page 10 of the transcript
25 be shown to the witness. I believe the time is 1343.
1 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: You are satisfied with the portions he
2 identified for the purposes of identification?
3 MS. McHENRY: Yes, your Honour. As I understand the
4 court's ruling, I think that is all that can be done
5 with M1D, and now I ask that M1B, the section beginning
6 on page 10 of the transcript, be shown to the witness.
7 (Videotape played)
8 MS. McHENRY: If we could fast forward to the first part
9 where there is the voice of the person in the car?
10 Could we please interrupt now?
11 (Videotape stopped)
12 MS. McHENRY: Sir, first of all do you recognise where this
13 is being filmed?
14 A. It was in front of the entrance to the Celebici prison.
15 Q. Sir, did you recognise the male voice that was heard on
16 the tape?
17 A. Yes, it is the voice of Zdravko Mucic.
18 MS. McHENRY: Your Honours, the tape continues but unless
19 the Defence is going to suggest that somehow there is
20 forgery in the video or something like that, rather than
21 have him watch the entire section and have him identify
22 the voice each time it is said, I would think that would
23 be sufficient, and I assume the Defence will notify me
24 if that is not acceptable, in which case I would ask
25 that we go to the section on page 13.
1 (Videotape played)
2 MS. McHENRY: If we may stop for a minute?
3 (Videotape stopped)
4 MS. McHENRY: Sir, first of all do you recognise where this
5 is being filmed?
6 A. It was filmed in the other prison which was in the
7 centre of town at Musala, in front of the building
9 Q. Were you present when this was being filmed?
10 A. Yes, I was.
11 Q. Who was the person who is shown on the tape?
12 A. It was a Serbian prisoner. I do not remember his name.
13 Q. What kind of mental condition was this prisoner in?
14 MR. GREAVES: That is an extraordinary question. How can he
15 give evidence about the mental condition of a prisoner?
16 MS. McHENRY: Let me put it another way. Can you describe
17 what you know about this prisoner, in particular whether
18 or not he had any difficulties that you are aware of?
19 A. He had some mental problems.
20 Q. Do you know whether or not this person was -- can you
21 describe a little more what you mean by mental problems?
22 A. His very behaviour did not appear to be quite normal.
23 He has some mental difficulties obviously.
24 Q. Do you know whether or not this prisoner was mentally
1 MR. GREAVES: Your Honour, this man is not a psychiatrist or
2 a psychologist. How on earth can he answer that
4 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: What he has said is sufficient for your
6 MS. McHENRY: Fine, your Honour. I will move on.
7 Sir, did you recognise any voices on the tape
8 besides that of the prisoner?
9 A. I heard the voice of Zdravko Mucic and another guard,
10 I do not know who he was.
11 MS. McHENRY: Thank you. Again, your Honours, for purposes
12 of time and unless the Defence informs me that they
13 object, rather than at the present time showing this
14 witness the entire event which lasted a significant
15 length of time, I would like to move forward. It is
16 obvious on the video where it stops and starts. I would
17 like to move forward to page 24, at 1759 and have that
18 shown to the witness.
20 (Videotape played)
21 MS. McHENRY: If we could stop for one minute?
22 (Videotape stopped)
23 MS. McHENRY: Sir, do you recognise where this is being
25 A. It was filmed in the Celebici prison.
1 Q. Did you recognise the voice, the voice that yelled out
2 "Sok", and if so whose voice is it?
3 A. Yes, it was the voice of Zdravko Mucic.
4 MS. McHENRY: Again, your Honours, rather than have this
5 witness go through, in the absence of an objection by
6 the Defence, I will just go to the next section, which
7 is on page 28.
8 (Videotape played)
9 MS. McHENRY: If we may stop now?
10 (Videotape stopped)
11 MS. McHENRY: Sir, do you recognise where this is being
13 A. In the Celebici prison, the place where the guards were,
14 the room where they were.
15 Q. Did you recognise anyone's voice on that tape?
16 A. Again, the same voice, the voice of Zdravko Mucic and
17 guards whose name I cannot remember.
18 Q. Sir, do you recognise the person who is being shown on
19 this video?
20 A. It is the same person taped in the Musala prison, the
21 same Serb prisoner.
22 Q. Sir, do you remember -- were you present on this
23 occasion? Was it another party?
24 A. Yes, I think -- yes, yes, I was there. It was
25 another --
1 Q. Was it another party, sir?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. What happened to the prisoner during this party?
4 A. They put women's clothes on to him and they made jokes
5 with him, they laughed at him.
6 Q. Again, rather than have the witness go through the
7 entire sequence and have him just confirm that it is the
8 same party and the same voice. In the absence of an
9 objection by the Defence, I will move forward to the
10 next section, which is on page 34.
11 (Videotape played)
12 MS. McHENRY: If we could fast forward now, but still have
13 it be shown on the tape? If we could stop, please.
14 (Videotape stopped)
15 MS. McHENRY: Sir, do you recognise where this is being
17 A. In the Celebici prison.
18 Q. Do you recognise whose voice that was?
19 A. It is Zdravko Mucic and Zeljko Mustafic's voices.
20 Q. If we could now please go to 35?
21 (Videotape played)
22 MS. McHENRY: If you could stop?
23 (Videotape stopped)
24 MS. McHENRY: Sir, do you recognise what is being shown
1 A. It is the big hangar where Serb prisoners were held.
2 Q. Did you see some buildings to the right, and can you
3 tell us what they were, sort of on a small hillside?
4 A. It was a dugout where Zenga sometimes slept and where he
5 spent most of his time and it was dug for him by the
6 Serb prisoners, and there was another dugout where the
7 big machinegun was.
8 Q. Sir, could you recognise who it was who was standing
9 right outside the hangar that we saw?
10 A. It was Zara Mrkajic.
11 Q. Was he any kind of special prisoner?
12 A. No, he was not really a special prisoner of any kind,
13 because he was quite well known before the war, and they
14 appointed him to be in charge of order in the hangar
15 where the Serb prisoners were.
16 Q. Did he have the same freedom of movement as the other
17 prisoners, or did he have more?
18 A. He had more freedom.
19 Q. If we could just continue with this a little bit?
20 (Videotape played)
21 MS. McHENRY: If we could go forward, I am looking for the
22 section where someone says "excellent". If they could
23 go forward to that section. If we could stop, sir?
24 (Videotape stopped)
25 MS. McHENRY: Sir, did you recognise whose voice that was?
1 A. Yes, it was the voice of Zdravko Mucic.
2 Q. If we could go forward now to page 36, the part that is
3 right above section 1908.
4 (Videotape played)
5 MS. McHENRY: If we could stop for a minute?
6 (Videotape stopped)
7 MS. McHENRY: Sir, do you recognise who that person was?
8 A. It was Hazim Delic.
9 Q. Sir, it is shown on the tape that Mr. Delic is wearing a
10 white belt. Did everyone in the prison wear a white
12 A. No, he was the only one who had a white belt, maybe at
13 the very beginning when the prison was first
14 established, some policemen had it, but later on it was
15 only him who had it.
16 Q. Whose voices did you recognise, sir?
17 A. Hazim Delic.
18 Q. Could you tell whose was the other voice on the tape
19 talking with Mr. Delic?
20 A. It was Zdravko Mucic.
21 Q. May we please go forward with the tape until we get
22 to -- fast forward so you can see it here, please?
23 (Videotape played)
24 MS. McHENRY: Stop, please. If we could back up a little
25 bit? Sir, I am going to ask you if you can recognise
1 who the two people shown are, the man on the ground and
2 the person above him. Sir, can you recognise either of
3 those two people?
4 A. It was Hazim Delic and a Serb prisoner whose name I do
5 not know, but he was a butcher before the war. He is
6 forced to do push-ups here.
7 MS. McHENRY: That is fine. Again with the same
8 understanding with Defence -- sir, do you recognise who
9 it was who was driving the car?
10 A. It was Zdravko Mucic's daughter.
11 MS. McHENRY: Thank you. If we could now go forward to
12 page 37?
13 (Videotape stopped)
14 MS. McHENRY: To the bottom of page 37 and just briefly
15 show that, please?
16 (Videotape played)
17 MS. McHENRY: If we could stop, please?
18 (Videotape stopped)
19 MS. McHENRY: Sir, do you recognise where this is?
20 A. It was the first party that was held in the office in
22 Q. When you say the first party, do you mean the first
23 party that you saw today or do you mean the first party
24 that was ever held in the camp?
25 A. Ever held in the camp.
1 Q. Were you present then?
2 A. Yes, I was. I think I was.
3 MS. McHENRY: May we just then with the same understanding
4 rather than have him show all the rest of the tape
5 showing this same party we will move forward, that is
6 all for that tape. We are almost finished and if
7 I could now just ask to see a couple of parts of M1C,
8 starting on page 5 of the transcript? (Pause).
9 (Videotape played)
10 MS. McHENRY: If you could stop there?
11 (Videotape stopped)
12 MS. McHENRY: Sir, do you recognise whose voice it was who
13 just spoke?
14 A. Yes, it is the voice of Zdravko Mucic.
15 Q. Can we go forward and then briefly show the next portion
16 on the bottom of page 5 and the two first portions on
17 page 6 and that will be the end.
18 (Videotape played)
19 MS. McHENRY: If we could stop, please.
20 (Videotape stopped)
21 MS. McHENRY: Sir, do you recognise any of the people being
22 shown in this video and do you recognise any of the
24 A. I recognise Zdravko Mucic and Pero Serbia. I do not
25 really know, I was not really -- the recording was not
1 very good and the others I cannot recognise.
2 Q. Did you recognise the voice of anyone talking about
3 loading material?
4 A. No, I did not.
5 Q. Did you hear any of that on the tape? Did you hear
6 anyone talking about loading material?
7 A. No, I am not certain. If we could see the tape again?
8 MS. McHENRY: I would ask the technical people to first
9 show the part of the transcript that is on the very
10 bottom of page 5 which starts at 1217, then stop and
11 next I will ask them to show this single sentence on the
12 top of page 6 at 1218. If the volume could be
14 (Videotape played)
15 (Videotape stopped)
16 MS. McHENRY: Sir, did you hear anyone talking about first
17 of all loading material?
18 A. I heard that they were saying something about grenades.
19 Q. Could you hear whose voice it was talking about that?
20 A. It was the voice of Zdravko Mucic.
21 Q. If we could next, unless it has already been shown --
22 let me ask you. Sir, did you hear anything about
23 appearances on TV?
24 A. I do not understand. What appearances?
25 MS. McHENRY: If I could just ask the technical people to
1 show just the sentence that is on the top of page 6 at
3 (Videotape played)
4 (Videotape stopped)
5 MS. McHENRY: Sir, did you hear anyone saying anything
6 about TV?
7 A. Yes, Zdravko Mucic told someone that he should be shown
8 on TV, but I cannot really link what it was about and
9 what he was talking about.
10 MS. McHENRY: Okay. With much thanks to the video
11 assistance people, the Prosecution is finished and, in
12 fact, the Prosecution is finished with its
13 examination-in-chief. Thank you, your Honours.
14 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: I hope you will be able to make the
15 excerpts available.
16 MS. McHENRY: Yes, your Honour. We will make sure that
17 that is available.
18 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: We should be actually having a break at
19 4.00, but I do not think it is necessary to start any
20 cross-examination now. We will come back at 4.30 to
21 start cross-examination.
22 (3.55 pm)
23 (A short break)
24 (4.30 pm)
25 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: How does the cross-examination go?
1 MR. O'SULLIVAN: First counsel for Mr. Delic, second counsel
2 for Mr. Delalic, third counsel for Mr. Mucic,
3 fourth counsel for Mr. Landzo.
4 MR. MORAN: May it please the court?
5 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Yes, you may proceed.
6 Cross-examined by MR. MORAN
7 Q. Thank you, your Honour. Good afternoon, sir.
8 A. Good afternoon.
9 Q. My name is Tom Moran and I am going to be asking you
10 some questions, some will be about what you testified
11 about on direct and some that may be out of the
12 statements that you have given earlier, and some that
13 may have nothing to do with any of that. I would like
14 to ask you to see if we can make a deal with a couple of
15 things. One, will you listen to my questions and if you
16 do not understand them for some reason stop me and
17 I will repeat it or rephrase it or do whatever it takes
18 to make sure that you understand it; could you do that
19 for me?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Second, will you just answer the question that I ask.
22 Some of them they just call for a yes or no answer. If
23 it just calls for a yes or no, can you just answer yes
24 or no?
25 A. I understand.
1 Q. Okay, that is fine. One other thing, you have been
2 nodding your head a little bit and if you look in front
3 of you, you will see a lady over there in front of
4 Judge Jan and another lady over behind Ms. McHenry.
5 Those people are court reporters and they have to write
6 down every word we say. They cannot write down a nod.
7 If you would answer in words rather than a nod, it would
8 make it much easier for them. Can you do that for me,
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Okay, thank you. Sir, if you look in front of you, on
12 your left by the microphone there is a little button
13 that says "push to talk" or some such thing. There we
14 go, okay. The usher got it.
15 Your Honour, while we are on ground rules for this
16 witness, can we go into closed session for a second?
17 I am about to say something that may reveal his current
19 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Let us go into private session for
21 MR. MORAN: Yes, your Honour. It will be just be a few
23 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Advise the technicians so that we go
24 into private session.
25 (In closed session)
13 Page 6765 redacted – closed session
17 (In open session)
18 MR. MORAN: Thank you, your Honour. Sir, we are now back
19 into open session and everything we say will be able to
20 be heard by the audience and things like that.
21 Sir, who have you talked to about your testimony
22 here today?
23 A. I do not understand the question.
24 Q. Okay, sir. Have you talked to anyone about what you
25 were going to testify about today? For instance,
1 Ms. McHenry, the lady that was asking you those
2 questions all this morning, did you talk to her about
3 what you were going to testify about?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. When was that, sir?
6 A. On Sunday and Monday.
7 Q. Did you talk to her about it today during any of the
9 A. No, only this morning when she told me what my rights
10 were in terms of protection, as decided by the court.
11 Q. Okay. Have you talked to any investigators from the
12 Office of the Prosecutor; for instance, back on
13 28th April, you talked to a man named Dennis Milner. Do
14 you remember doing that?
15 A. Yes, I remember.
16 Q. You talked to someone from your national police back in
17 March of this year, 24th March; do you remember that
19 A. Yes, I do.
20 Q. Have you talked to anyone else about your testimony
22 A. No, I did not.
23 Q. Sir, I would like to focus for a second on your national
24 police and your interview with them. How did they first
25 get in touch with you? Did they just show up on your
1 front door?
2 A. No, they contacted my brother. They did not have my
3 address, so they found me through my brother.
4 Q. And then they came out to visit you and said they wanted
5 to interview you; is that right?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. When they interviewed you they told you that you were
8 suspected, or at least had been accused of crimes in
9 front of this Tribunal. It was a murder, was it not
10 that somebody suspected you of?
11 MS. McHENRY: Just so the record reflects, this witness has
12 not been accused by this Tribunal. I just want the
13 record to be clear.
14 MR. MORAN: Do you remember when those national police agents
15 came out and -- invited you down to their office? They
16 told you that --
17 A. Yes, I remember.
18 Q. They told you that someone had accused you of committing
19 a murder; do you remember that?
20 A. Yes, that was at the second interview. Yes,
21 I apologise, at the first and the second.
22 Q. You had two interviews with your national police?
1 MS. McHENRY: May we go into private session for one
2 minute, please?
3 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Let us go into private session.
4 (In closed session)
14 (In open session)
15 MR. MORAN: Sir, without revealing where you live, what
16 continent or country, you are not a citizen of the
17 country you are living in right now, are you?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. You are a citizen of that country?
20 A. I am.
21 Q. Okay. Fine. Sir, let us talk a little bit about your
22 military background. I understand that you served your
23 national service in the JNA as an artillery man; is that
25 A. Yes, that is correct.
1 Q. Then at some time in either March or February of 1992,
2 you joined the military police of the HVO; is that
3 right, sir?
4 A. Yes, it is right.
5 Q. You served as a military policeman for about three
6 months and then you were transferred to the Celebici
7 camp; is that right?
8 A. It is, something like that.
9 Q. You picked the military police and the HVO so that you
10 would not have to go out in the field as an infantryman;
11 is that not right, sir?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. That is because it was just an easier life to be a
14 military policeman than it was to be an infantryman; you
15 did not have to go out in the field and things like
16 that. That is pretty fair, is it not, sir?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. The HVO never provided you with any training as a
19 military policeman, did they?
20 A. No, they did not.
21 Q. They just gave you a weapon and said "be a military
22 policeman", right?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. By the way, what kind of weapon did you have?
25 A. I had an automatic rifle.
1 Q. It was one with a wooden stock all the way from the
2 front to the back?
3 A. No, not from one end to the other.
4 Q. Okay, but it had a wooden piece that you put against
5 your shoulder, the stock was all wood; is that right?
6 A. Yes, that is right.
7 Q. Okay. Sir, let us focus on the early days, the first
8 days in the camp, early on. As I recall your testimony
9 this morning, your duties were not as a driver at that
10 point, were they?
11 A. No, they were not.
12 Q. It was more of a guard's position, was it not?
13 A. I took the prisoners for their interrogations. When
14 they had finished, I would be on duty by the telephone.
15 Q. You mentioned Hazim Delic at that point in time had been
16 injured and was not deputy commander. Do you remember
17 testifying about that?
18 A. I do not know whether he was wounded or not, I know he
19 was carrying a crutch.
20 Q. And he had a cast on one leg, did he not, in late May
21 and June 1992?
22 A. When he first arrived, he had a cast. Later he removed
24 Q. But he still carried a crutch for quite a while, right?
25 A. Not so long.
1 Q. While he was in the cast and carrying the crutch, what
2 were his duties in the camp, do you recall? Let me see
3 if I can help you on that. Do you recall whether he
4 worked on the front gate doing things like checking
5 vehicles in and out, that type of thing?
6 A. I cannot remember whether he checked the vehicles coming
7 in and out.
8 Q. But you recall whether his job was just basically to man
9 the front gate?
10 A. No, I do not recall.
11 Q. Okay, that is fine, sir. By the way, before you became
12 the driver in the camp, the driver was a man named Rale,
13 was it not?
14 A. His name is Rale Dzajic -- Dzajic.
15 Q. But he was known as Rale; is that right?
16 A. No, Rala, they called him.
17 Q. Sir, do you know a man named, I believe it is his
18 nickname, the English translation is "Black" but his
19 nickname was in Bosnia something like Crni C-R-N-I do
20 you know that man, sir?
21 A. Yes, sir.
22 Q. Do you know a person named Mira, Mrjana Mrkajic?
23 A. Miro Mrkajic?
24 Q. A woman.
25 A. Yes, I remember her.
1 Q. Do you remember her being confined in the camp by you?
2 A. No, she was never detained in the camp.
3 Q. So she never was held in the building on that model in
4 front of you with the G on it?
5 A. Please repeat the question?
6 Q. If you stand up or look in front of you you will see a
7 model of the camp. There is a building with a G on it.
8 MS. McHENRY: I do not think with the witness that he can
9 see easily. It may be if the Defence counsel refers to
10 reception building, I think the witness may know it, if
11 I have it right.
12 MR. MORAN: You do not have it right.
13 MS. McHENRY: If counsel could point to him and he could
15 MR. MORAN: I think Mr. Hocking is trying to -- or we can
16 close the windows.
17 Sir, while they are trying to do this, see if we
18 can get it on television, Mira: did you ever bring her
19 into the camp?
20 A. Yes, on one occasion, because her brother was imprisoned
21 there, she came to see him, but she was never detained
23 Q. Okay. Was she a retarded person, sir?
24 A. She was a mentally retarded person.
25 Q. Did you take her to any of the hangars in that camp,
2 A. No.
3 Q. Do you know a man named Alibasic?
4 A. I cannot remember. There were quite a number of people
5 with that surname, but I am not sure.
6 Q. First name, I will spell it for you, D-Z-E-V-A-D.
7 A. Perhaps I know him, but I cannot remember exactly.
8 Q. How about a man named Fikret Macic, M-A-C-I-C, do you
9 know him? He was one of the other guards in the camp
10 with you, both of them were. Does that help you put
11 them in context?
12 A. Fikret Macic or Masic.
13 Q. Masic I believe is the pronunciation. Believe me, my
14 Bosnian is not very good.
15 A. I think I knew him.
16 MS. McHENRY: Excuse me for interrupting, sir.
17 Your Honours, the Prosecution would ask that
18 your Honours instruct Mr. Mucic to not be making any kind
19 of head signals or anything else to the witness.
20 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: I am not sure, Mr. Mucic, you are
21 showing enough responsibility. This is the second time
22 you have been accused of behaving in an improper way.
23 I think you had better appreciate the trial under which
24 you are -- in this Tribunal and not continue to be
25 ridiculous to yourself. I do not think I will tolerate
1 any such action any longer. One has ignored the first
2 two offences and that should be an end of it. I hope
3 his counsel is aware of this and will be able to speak
4 to him. There is a limit to imprudence in trials of
5 this nature.
6 MR. OLUJIC: Your Honours, with your permission, in this
7 courtroom I cannot follow, nor is it my duty to take
8 care of the order. My client, if he did something
9 improper, I was unable to see him. I am not even sure
10 whether that corresponds to the truth, what my learned
11 colleague said, because I am facing my client with my
12 back, so I cannot see him. The only way is to look at
13 the screen or to turn around. May I please ask
14 your Honours, I am all for order in the courtroom, there
15 is no dilemma in that respect, but could I please be
16 left out of it.
17 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: In the legal profession, there is
18 something like a mutual trust and confidence between
19 colleagues, and it is surprising to me for you even to
20 question the integrity of a fellow counsel who makes a
21 proper complaint about what has happened. I think the
22 attitude is quite a different thing somewhere else.
23 I am meeting very different ethics in practice here.
24 MR. MORAN: May I proceed, your Honour?
25 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Yes, you can proceed.
1 MR. MORAN: Thank you very much. Sir, do you remember an
2 incident when you and Mr. Alibasic and Mr. Masic passed a
3 helmet through either the tunnel, which I believe you
4 called number 11, and which everyone else has called
5 number 9 and that little warehouse behind the
6 administration building to collect valuables from the
7 prisoners; do you remember that incident?
8 A. Yes, that is correct.
9 Q. Do you remember a few days later all of the guards at
10 the camp were lined up and were asked to admit who had
11 done it; do you remember that?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. And the three of you admitted that you had done it and
14 were ordered to give back all of the property you had
15 taken, except for the property that you had sold to pay
16 for Mr. Alibasic's birthday party; do you remember that?
17 A. I do not understand Mr. Alibasic's party.
18 Q. What I have been told is that the three of you had sold
19 some of the property to pay for a party; is that
20 correct, is that what had occurred, sir?
21 A. No, that is not correct.
22 Q. Okay.
23 A. Why would I be paying for somebody's party? There is no
24 reason for that.
25 Q. Yes, sir. When you passed the helmet through these
1 places where the prisoners were collecting property,
2 what did you do with that property after you collected
3 it all?
4 A. It was ordered that it should all be returned, most of
5 it, because the rule of the house was that it had to be
6 returned and most of it was returned.
7 Q. What happened to the part that was not returned, sir?
8 A. It was a small amount, not too great, perhaps to buy
9 cigarettes or something like that.
10 MS. McHENRY: If I may just interrupt to ask if the
11 interpreters can clarify whether or not there was part
12 of the witness's answer that was not interpreted into
14 THE INTERPRETER: The witness said it was ordered by
15 Zdravko Mucic that goods be returned, correct.
16 MS. McHENRY: Thank you.
17 MR. MORAN: Sir, you said some of the goods were not returned
18 and you mentioned some of the things that were not
19 returned. What happened to that property? Did it just
20 disappear or did you use it or sell it or give it away?
21 A. It was an insignificant amount of property. It was old
22 watches mainly, a few golden rings perhaps, a very
23 insignificant amount.
24 Q. Sir, I understand it was it was an insignificant amount
25 of property. What happened to it? Did it just
1 disappear or did -- what did you do with it, sir?
2 A. As I have already said, most of it was returned, since
3 the commander ordered, and what little was left, it was
4 mainly to buy cigarettes.
5 Q. Okay, so you took property from these prisoners and that
6 property that you did not return you sold to buy
7 cigarettes; is that what you are telling these judges?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Okay, fine. A man nicknamed Habu, H-A-B-U; do you know
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Who is he?
13 A. One of the guards.
14 Q. How about a woman named Dusanka Avkamovic; do you know
16 A. I do not know her.
17 Q. Maybe I can help you sir. Would that be the woman who
18 came to the camp in August 1992 and accused you and Habu
19 of going into her house and taking her television set?
20 A. No, that is not true.
21 Q. Okay. That is fine. Do you remember back in August or
22 September 1992 when some investigators from the Ministry
23 of the Interior came by the camp investigating theft of
24 some appliances from Serbian houses; do you remember
25 that, like freezers, deep freezers, washing machines,
1 things like that?
2 A. No, I do not remember.
3 Q. Okay, that is fine. Georgi S-I-P-O-V-A-C, Sipovac, do
4 you know him? He used to be a police officer in
5 Konjic. He was a prisoner in the camp; do you remember
7 A. Perhaps I could remember him if you had a photograph of
8 him to show me.
9 Q. How about -- do you remember an incident when you
10 brought a prisoner into the day room where the guards
11 had their recreation area, and gave that person some
12 hand lotion? Do you recall that incident, sir?
13 A. I am not getting any translation. No.
14 Q. You do not recall that incident, sir?
15 A. No, I do not remember.
16 Q. Okay. Sir, I do not want to try and fool you with
17 anything, so I will just come right out and say this.
18 You have testified that you took a lot of these
19 prisoners over to be interrogated by the MUP; do you
20 remember that?
21 A. Yes, that is correct.
22 Q. When you did that, did you tie their hands or did you
23 beat them?
24 A. No, I did not. Those that I took were not tied. Others
25 I do not know, but I do not think any of them were.
1 Q. So if anybody said that some of those prisoners were
2 tied, had their hands tied and they were beaten either
3 on the way over to the administration building to be
4 interrogated or on their way back, those people would
5 either be lying or they would be wrong; is that what you
6 are telling the judges?
7 MS. McHENRY: Your Honours, may I object, I think this is a
8 misrepresentation. What he said is he does not know
9 about others, but he thinks they were not tied. I think
10 the question mischaracterises the testimony.
11 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: I think you might limit your
12 cross-examination to the answer he gave you.
13 MR. MORAN: Yes, your Honour.
14 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: He said he did not do that. You are
15 trying to find out whether anybody said that he did
17 MR. MORAN: Your Honour, let me broaden the question a little
18 bit and I think we can solve that problem.
19 When you were a guard in the camp moving these
20 prisoners from wherever they were being held over to be
21 interrogated by the MUP, you were pretty well aware of
22 what was going on in the camp, were you not?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. And if somebody would have been beating those prisoners
25 on their way to be interrogated or on their way back,
1 you would have known about it, would you not?
2 A. No, I would if I had seen it, but since I did not see
3 it, I cannot say.
4 Q. Okay. Do you know a woman named Grozdana Cecez?
5 A. It was Lazar Cecez's wife.
6 Q. She was a prisoner in the camp, was she not?
7 A. Yes, that is right.
8 Q. When you were investigated by the -- excuse me, that is
9 the wrong word. When you were interrogated by the
10 investigator from the Office of the Prosecutor during
11 your interview with him, he talked to you about
12 Ms. Cecez, did he not?
13 A. Yes.
14 MR. MORAN: Your Honour, in the interests of caution I would
15 like to go into a private session for a couple of
16 minutes. I think that the court knows where I am
18 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Yes, we will go into private session.
19 (In closed session)
13 Page 6782 – redacted – closed session
13 Page 6783 – redacted – closed session
13 Page 6784 – redacted – closed session
13 Page 6785 – redacted – closed session
13 Page 6786 – redacted – closed session
12 (In open session)
13 MR. MORAN: What you are saying then is there may have been a
14 few occasions when food was not provided for a couple of
15 days, but those were rare occasions?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. How was the food supply for the civilians that were
18 living out in the community?
19 A. They were mainly receiving aid from the Red Cross. I do
20 not know, everybody was trying to manage in their own
21 way. People had their own cattle et cetera.
22 Q. You could not just go down to the grocery store and get
23 five pounds of potatoes and three loaves of bread and a
24 five pound roast of beef, could you?
25 A. Yes, there were some shops open and one was able to buy
1 some things.
2 Q. Food was short?
3 A. Of course!
4 Q. Zara Mrkajic. You said that -- let me strike that. Let
5 me back off and talk about something else.
6 You said that it was fairly common, as
7 I understood your testimony on direct, for people that
8 were not part of the guard force or not assigned to the
9 prison at Celebici to come into the camp and abuse
10 prisoners. Do you remember testifying about that?
11 A. Yes, that is right.
12 Q. Who were those people?
13 A. They were from the Ministry of the Internal, then from
14 the Muslim police, then some soldiers from Mitke Pirkic,
15 et cetera.
16 Q. And you said they forced their way into the camp
17 basically, the people at the camp did not have any
18 ability to stop them?
19 A. They were not really forcing their way in because they
20 were fairly dangerous people, they were mainly let in.
21 Some of them had friends amongst the guards so that they
22 were able to get in.
23 Q. Did those people come on few or many occasions to the
25 A. On several occasions.
1 Q. Several is kind of a -- when you say several do you mean
2 seven, eight, ten, more than ten?
3 A. Perhaps five or six times.
4 Q. Okay. In fact, those were the people that beat up Zara
5 Mrkajic, right?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. They are the folks that tied him to the electric pole
8 and beat him and left him there and beat him some more,
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. These dangerous people came into the prison while you
12 were one of the guards, is that correct, to do what they
13 were doing; they came in to beat prisoners while you
14 were a guard; is that right?
15 A. No, I was not a guard. I was never performing guard
16 duties. As I said, I was on duty by the phone and
17 I drove a car.
18 Q. So you had no responsibility for protecting these
19 prisoners from people that would come in and abuse them,
20 is that what you are saying, sir?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. And you were a member of the military --
23 A. No, I just said again which duties I was performing.
24 I was on duty by the phone and I was a driver. I was
25 not a guard.
1 Q. So you had no responsibility in your mind to protect
2 these prisoners from people that would come into the
3 camp from the outside and beat them; is that correct?
4 A. I had no possibility to prevent them from doing that.
5 I was the only Croat there and since those were
6 dangerous people I could have risked my own life.
7 Q. You were armed with, you said, an automatic weapon; that
8 was a Kalasnikov, was it not, 7.62 millimetre fully
9 automatic weapon?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. And you had bullets to go in it, right?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. And you had training in the Yugoslav National Army on
14 how to use it, did you not?
15 A. So what was I specified to do, kill 20 people, Muslim
16 soldiers who were coming there? I would only get myself
17 into trouble. I had no way and no possibility of doing
18 that, of preventing that.
19 Q. So you made no attempt to do it, no attempt to prevent
20 it, is that what you are saying?
21 A. As I said, I had no possibility, it was not my
22 responsibility to do that.
23 Q. I understand it was not in your job description, sir.
24 A. You understand nothing.
25 Q. Sir, I think I do. I think I do, sir. Sir, I spent
1 most of my adult life wearing a uniform. I think I do.
2 Sir, again I ask you: you did not have any
3 responsibility, you did not do anything to stop these
4 people from coming in; is that what you are telling the
6 A. I said I had no possibility to prevent that because
7 I was the only Croat there, and since I was never
8 keeping guard, very often I could not see them coming.
9 There was no chance for me to stop them, especially
10 because those were dangerous people who were on the
11 frontlines, who were constantly drunk. I had no chance.
12 Q. In fact was there a -- before you went to the camp
13 I thought you told me that you had been assigned to the
14 HVO military police in Konjic. Was that still around or
15 had it been disbanded or had they left the country or
17 A. I have not understood the question.
18 Q. Yes, sir. Before you came to the camp, before you were
19 assigned to the Celebici camp, you were assigned to the
20 HVO military police, right?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. That was in Konjic?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. While you were in the camp and these dangerous people
25 were coming in, the HVO military police still existed,
1 did it not?
2 A. No, there were other people who were coming in to abuse
3 the people after HVO left, when I was the only Croat.
4 Q. Sir, what I am getting at is: could you have picked up
5 the phone and called a cop?
6 A. There was a war on it was not -- that would have had no
7 effect. I did not know which police. I cannot call the
8 police if it was the police who came over to beat them.
9 Q. I thought you told the investigator for the Office of
10 the Prosecutor that part of your duties as a military
11 policeman before you went to Konjic was to enforce the
12 law, regardless of whether it was a military or civilian
13 person that had violated the law. Do you remember
14 telling the investigator that? Do you remember telling
15 Mr. Milner that?
16 A. No, I have not heard the translation.
17 Q. Okay. So there were no military police, no HVO military
18 police that you could have called on for help to keep
19 these prisoners from being abused by these dangerous bad
20 people that were coming in from out of the camp, even
21 though you were standing by a telephone, or sitting by a
23 A. No, there was no possibility for that. I was not just
24 sitting by a phone, it was an office where I sometimes
25 slept. If the phone rang, I would wake up and answer,
1 that is all.
2 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: I suppose this is a convenient point
3 for you to stop?
4 MR. MORAN: I think so, your Honour.
5 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Is that the end of your
6 cross-examination or you will continue tomorrow
8 MR. MORAN: Your Honour, let me think about it overnight.
9 Let me take the Fifth Amendment on that.
10 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Okay, tomorrow morning.
11 MR. MORAN: Thank you very much, your Honour.
12 (5.35 pm)
13 (Court adjourned until 10.00 am the following day)