Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 6666

1 Wednesday, 3rd September 1997

2 (10.00 am)

3 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Good morning ladies and gentlemen. We

4 will have the appearances, please.

5 MR. NIEMANN: If your Honours please, my name is Niemann and

6 I appear with my colleagues Ms. McHenry, Mr. Turone,

7 Mr. Khan and Ms. Van Dusschoten for the Prosecution,

8 your Honour.

9 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: And the Defence appearances, please.

10 MS. RESIDOVIC: Good morning, your Honours, I am Edina

11 Residovic, Defence counsel for Mr. Zejnil Delalic, with

12 co-counsel Eugene O'Sullivan, professor from Canada.

13 MR. OLUJIC: Good morning your Honours, I am Zeljko Olujic

14 attorney from Croatia, representing Mr. Zdravko Mucic,

15 together with my co-counsel, Mr. Michael Greaves,

16 attorney from the United Kingdom.

17 MR. KARABDIC: Good morning your Honours, I am Salih Karabdic

18 appearing for Mr. Hazim Delic along with my co-counsel,

19 Mr. Thomas Moran, attorney from Houston Texas.

20 MR. ACKERMAN: Good morning your Honours, I am John Ackerman

21 and along with my co-counsel Cynthia McMurray I appear

22 on behalf of Mr. Esad Landzo.

23 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Before we continue this morning, the

24 trial Chamber is sorry to announce that we might not be

25 able to take the motion scheduled for this morning

Page 6667

1 because of other more pressing problems. Would you mind

2 if we take Tuesday morning for the arguments? Can we

3 have the next witness?

4 MS. McHENRY: Thank you, your Honours, for postponing that

5 argument. Your Honour, the Prosecution calls Witness T,

6 who is a protected witness. I believe the blinds will

7 have to be closed.

8 (Witness entered court)

9 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Kindly let him swear.

10 WITNESS T (sworn)

11 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: You can sit down.

12 MS. McHENRY: May I begin, your Honours?

13 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Yes, you may start.

14 Examined by MS. McHENRY

15 Q. Thank you. Sir, good morning. Do you understand that

16 the judges have granted your request that your name and

17 your face not be made public as part of your testimony

18 here today?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Do you understand that you will be known as Mr. T?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. I am asking the court usher to show you on a piece of

23 paper a name and I ask you to confirm that it is your

24 actual name. Is that your actual name that is written

25 on the paper, sir? You do not have to say your name,

Page 6668

1 just please tell me if that is your name, yes or no.

2 A. Yes, it is my name.

3 Q. Thank you. Sir, were you interviewed previously by a

4 representative from the office of the Prosecutor and you

5 gave a statement that was recorded?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Before giving that statement were you advised of certain

8 rights?

9 A. I was.

10 Q. Since you have been here in The Hague today, have you

11 again been advised of those rights?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Sir, although you may remember them, just so the record

14 is clear, do you understand that I am going to give you

15 those rights again?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Sir, do you understand that you have the right to be

18 assisted by counsel of your choice or to have legal

19 assistance assigned to you without payment if you do not

20 have sufficient means to pay for it?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Do you understand that you have the right to remain

23 silent and to be cautioned that any statement you make

24 shall be recorded and may be used in evidence?

25 A. Yes.

Page 6669

1 JUDGE JAN: Do you mean against him?

2 MS. McHENRY: Against him or anyone else.

3 JUDGE JAN: It should be against you.

4 A. Yes.

5 MS. McHENRY: Is it correct that no promises or inducements

6 of any kind have been made to you from anyone in the

7 Office of the Prosecutor?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Is it correct that you are testifying here voluntarily

10 to this Tribunal today?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Is it correct that you have not requested a lawyer in

13 connection with your testimony here today?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Sir, how old are you at the present time?

16 A. I am 28.

17 Q. Where were you born?

18 A. In Konjic.

19 Q. Can you please tell us when approximately you left

20 Konjic?

21 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: No English translation is coming

22 through to me. Okay.

23 MS. McHENRY: I am sorry sir, let me repeat the question.

24 Can you tell the court when approximately you left

25 Konjic?

Page 6670

1 A. I left in 1993.

2 Q. Did you then move to another country and do you still

3 live in that country today? Not today, but at the

4 present time.

5 A. No, I moved to another country and then I later moved

6 from there to a third country.

7 Q. Thank you. Sir, how far did you go in school?

8 A. I completed secondary school as a metal worker, a

9 locksmith.

10 Q. What is your ethnic background, sir?

11 A. I am a Croat.

12 Q. Sir, in early 1992, were you living in Konjic?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Did there come a time in 1992 when you joined any kind

15 of Defence or military force or unit?

16 A. Yes, at the beginning of the war I joined the

17 Territorial Defence of Bosnia-Herzegovina.

18 Q. Where were you stationed as a member of the Territorial

19 Defence?

20 A. I was stationed on the frontline in relation to Serb

21 held territory.

22 Q. Was this the Konjic TO that you joined?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Can you tell us approximately when it was that you

25 joined the Konjic TO?

Page 6671

1 A. At the very beginning of the war.

2 Q. Do you know approximately what month that would be, sir?

3 A. I cannot recall exactly.

4 Q. Did there come a time when you left the TO and joined

5 another group or unit?

6 A. Yes, I later joined the Croatian Defence Council as a

7 policeman.

8 Q. The Croatian Defence Council, is that also known as the

9 HVO?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Can you state approximately if you know when it was that

12 you joined the HVO police?

13 A. Maybe in April or May -- no, I am not quite sure.

14 Q. Was there a time that you were sent to the Celebici camp

15 to work?

16 A. Yes, I was sent there because HVO soldiers were

17 providing the guards for the Celebici camp.

18 Q. When was this, approximately, sir?

19 A. Immediately after the capture of Donje Selo. I cannot

20 again recall the exact month.

21 Q. Who sent you to work at Celebici camp?

22 A. I was sent by a commander called Zeljko Brekalo.

23 Q. Was he the commander of the HVO military police at that

24 time?

25 A. Yes.

Page 6672

1 Q. When you first went to the camp was everyone who worked

2 in the camp a member of the HVO?

3 A. In addition to HVO there were Muslims and Croats, but

4 I think there were members of the TO as well.

5 Q. Just for an overview, how long in all did you remain

6 working in Celebici?

7 A. I remained about six or seven months, maybe a little

8 longer.

9 Q. Do you know approximately what month or what months it

10 would have been when you left the camp finally?

11 A. It was perhaps in October or November.

12 Q. What were your duties in the camp, sir?

13 A. Immediately upon my arrival, the investigations of

14 prisoners were carried out by the Ministry of the

15 Interior, so that I was mainly bringing prisoners in for

16 questioning, wait for them to complete the interview,

17 then take them back to their place of detention. Later

18 on, I was on duty at the telephone and then I became a

19 driver.

20 Q. During the time period that you were a driver, can you

21 explain what your duties were as a driver, what kinds of

22 things you did?

23 A. I mostly drove the prisoners when they were released to

24 their villages, mostly to Donje Selo, because most of

25 them were going there. That was one of my most

Page 6673

1 important duties.

2 Q. Did you drive people who worked in the camp on any

3 occasions? Was that sometimes part of your duties?

4 A. Yes, there were some cases, some instances, but not very

5 significant, to take someone to a cafe or to a party or

6 something like that.

7 Q. Were you also ever involved in moving prisoners between

8 the Celebici camp and any other prison camp?

9 A. I am not quite sure. As far as I can remember I once

10 took the wounded from the camp in the centre of town,

11 when they were wounded I drove them to the hospital, and

12 then I think I later transferred them after treatment to

13 Celebici.

14 Q. When you refer to the camp in the centre of town, sir,

15 would that be what is referred to as Musala camp?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. During the time that you were a driver, who was the

18 commander of the camp?

19 A. Mr. Zdravko Mucic was.

20 Q. Did you sometimes drive Mr. Mucic to the camp or away

21 from the camp or between camps?

22 A. Perhaps two or three times, not so often.

23 Q. Did Mr. Mucic have his own transportation that he usually

24 used when he was going to or from the camp?

25 A. He had his own car and he usually used it.

Page 6674

1 Q. In addition to his car, did Mr. Mucic have any other

2 means of transportation that he sometimes used?

3 A. Yes, he had a motorbike. As far as I recall, that is

4 all, a motorbike and a car.

5 Q. Thank you. Sir, was there ever any interruption in your

6 work at Celebici camp, or did you work there

7 continuously from when you first got there to when you

8 finally left?

9 A. There was an interruption when all the Croatian soldiers

10 abandoned Celebici and joined the other Croats on the

11 frontlines. That was the only time that I left the

12 camp, and this was for a day or two. After that I went

13 back to Celebici.

14 Q. Okay. Could you please just briefly explain why you

15 decided to go back to Celebici and how you made the

16 arrangements to go back.

17 A. The reasons for leaving Celebici were the rumours going

18 around town that the Croatian fighters would be blamed

19 for certain things that were happening there, and

20 another reason was the formation of the Muslim police,

21 though I am not quite sure. When I came back I asked

22 the commander, Zdravko Mucic, whether I could come back

23 and he said I could.

24 Q. Can you please explain why it is that you wanted to go

25 back to the camp?

Page 6675

1 A. I went back because it was boring to be in the military

2 police. They were doing nothing, just sitting around.

3 It was boring. There was no special reason.

4 Q. Sir, when you went back to Celebici then after talking

5 to the commander, Mr. Mucic, were you a member of the TO,

6 the HVO, some sort of police unit? Exactly when, if you

7 know, were you a member of?

8 A. To tell you the truth I do not know who I belonged to.

9 Probably some kind of Territorial Defence.

10 Q. Sir, during the time that you worked in the camp, did

11 you sleep in the camp?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Did other persons also sleep in the camp?

14 A. Yes, they did.

15 Q. What building did you and the other people sleep in?

16 What was it called?

17 A. I do not exactly know what it was called. I have

18 forgotten the number now. Anyway it was the building

19 where the offices were, and where the kitchen was for

20 the guards, the canteen, I do not know whether it had a

21 special name.

22 MS. McHENRY: Your Honour, in light of this witness's

23 protected status and lack of a long pointer, I do not

24 feel it necessary to use this model but if at some point

25 your Honours think it would be helpful we can shut the

Page 6676

1 blinds and have him do it.

2 Sir, what was the ethnic background of the

3 prisoners in Celebici?

4 A. They were of Serb ethnic origin.

5 Q. Can you tell us where the prisoners were detained? Was

6 it in one place, more than one place? Can you please

7 tell us the places where the prisoners were detained.

8 A. They were detained in three places, two hangars and a

9 tunnel.

10 Q. What kind of prisoners were kept in the tunnel?

11 A. In the tunnel there were mainly people from Bradina,

12 from Brdjani, mainly people who were considered a bit

13 more dangerous, people who they thought had participated

14 in the fighting.

15 Q. What kind of prisoners were kept in the hangars?

16 A. People in the hangars were mainly prisoners from Donje

17 Selo, some from the centre of the town, mainly elderly

18 people. There were some young people, but not that

19 many.

20 Q. Sir, do I understand that you do not remember the

21 numbers of the hangars -- the two hangars where the

22 prisoners were kept?

23 A. I did not understand the question.

24 Q. You indicated that the prisoners were kept either in the

25 tunnel or in two hangars and I am asking if the hangars

Page 6677

1 had numbers and if they did, if you remember the

2 numbers.

3 A. The hangars did have numbers. It was number 6 and

4 number 9, and the tunnel was number 11.

5 Q. Can you tell us where the two hangars were, if you can

6 just -- for instance, where was the -- let me start

7 off. Was one hangar larger than the other?

8 A. One hangar was close to the place where the guards

9 slept. That one was smaller and there was the other one

10 in the back, the one in the back was much bigger.

11 Q. Thank you. Sir, previously you indicated that there

12 were prisoners from the hangars in the centre of town.

13 What town do you mean?

14 A. The town of Konjic.

15 Q. Thank you. Sir, you previously mentioned that Zdravko

16 Mucic was the commander of the camp. Did Mr. Mucic also

17 have any kind of nickname?

18 A. Yes, he did. His nickname was Pavo.

19 Q. Was Mr. Mucic commander of the camp in the very beginning

20 when you first got to the camp?

21 A. No, he was not the commander at the time, the Ministry

22 of Internal Affairs was in charge of the camp.

23 Q. At the time when Mr. Mucic was in charge of the camp, do

24 you know whether or not he was a member of the TO, the

25 HVO or the Ministry of Interior or something else?

Page 6678

1 A. He was probably a member of the TO.

2 Q. Before he became commander, did Mr. Mucic sometimes come

3 to the camp?

4 A. I do not know, I am not sure.

5 Q. Did Mr. Mucic have a deputy?

6 A. Yes, he did. He had a deputy whose name was Hazim

7 Delic.

8 Q. Do you know who appointed Mr. Delic as deputy commander?

9 A. It was probably Zdravko Mucic. I am not certain,

10 probably. I do not know.

11 Q. Did Mr. Delic have any injuries at any time when he

12 worked at the camp?

13 A. Before he became a permanent member of the prison, his

14 leg was injured and he used crutches to walk on. Since

15 he lived close to the prison he sometimes came there,

16 and later he became a permanent member.

17 Q. When he became a permanent member, was he deputy

18 commander; in other words, did he have some position

19 before he became deputy commander?

20 A. I cannot remember precisely whether he held a position

21 earlier or not.

22 Q. Was Mr. Delic using his crutches when he first had a

23 permanent position in the camp?

24 A. I do not know. I cannot remember.

25 Q. Did Mr. Delic have any kind of deputy or assistant?

Page 6679

1 A. Yes, later he had a deputy named Sejo Mustafic.

2 Q. What was Mr. Mustafic's position?

3 A. He mainly performed duties of the deputy when Pavo was

4 away or when Hazim was away, he carried out -- he was

5 responsible for the guards. He looked after the

6 prisoners and so on.

7 Q. Did Mr. Mucic have an office in the camp?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Did Mr. Mucic's office face the camp or face the road

10 outside the camp?

11 A. Towards the camp.

12 Q. How frequently was Mr. Mucic in the camp?

13 A. Sometimes he would spend an hour or two in a day, then

14 he would leave, he would not come back for two days, and

15 so he was rather absent, absent more than present.

16 Q. When he was in the camp, what did Mr. Mucic do?

17 A. When he was there, he visited the prisoners, he spoke to

18 some of them, asked them if they needed anything, the

19 usual.

20 Q. Did Mr. Mucic normally inspect the hangars or the tunnel

21 where the prisoners were kept?

22 A. Yes, he did carry out inspections. As I said, he

23 sometimes spoke to them. How many times I really cannot

24 remember.

25 Q. On the times when you saw Mr. Mucic speak to the

Page 6680

1 prisoners, would it be inside the hangar or the tunnel

2 or outside the hangars or the tunnel?

3 A. The times I saw, it was outside the hangar. Whether he

4 went inside the hangar or not when I was away, maybe he

5 did, maybe he did not, I do not know.

6 Q. Is it correct, sir, that you did not personally see him

7 make any kinds of inspections inside the hangars or the

8 tunnel?

9 A. I cannot remember precisely. Maybe he did, maybe he did

10 not.

11 Q. When Mr. Mucic was not in the camp, do you know where he

12 was or what he was doing?

13 A. I do not know exactly where he was. His parents were

14 there, maybe he stayed with his parents. He had a flat

15 in town, maybe he slept there sometimes, but exactly

16 where he was, I do not know.

17 Q. On some occasions, did you drive Mr. Mucic to places?

18 A. Yes, sometimes. I once drove him to see Mr. Zejnil --

19 actually he drove, I am sorry, but it was mainly --

20 I really do not know exactly what you mean.

21 Q. For instance, you indicated before, I believe, that

22 Mr. Mucic sometimes went to cafes -- I am sorry, you

23 indicated that sometimes you drove persons to cafes.

24 I am wondering whether or not as part of your duties

25 sometimes you drove Mr. Mucic to cafes.

Page 6681

1 A. Yes, we did drive, but that was not part of our duties.

2 We would simply go for a drink.

3 Q. How about fishing. Did you ever go with Mr. Mucic

4 fishing or drive him there?

5 A. Yes, two or three times.

6 Q. Sir, you just spoke about a Mr. Zejnil. First of all, do

7 you know the full name of Mr. Zejnil?

8 A. Yes, Zejnil Delalic.

9 Q. What was his position, if any, at that time?

10 A. As far as I knew and as the stories went in town, he was

11 the main person, he was within the Territorial Defence.

12 He was the main person for Prozor and Konjic.

13 Q. Did you ever see Mr. Zejnil in the camp?

14 A. I cannot remember exactly.

15 Q. Sir, is it the case that you cannot remember exactly or

16 that -- exactly how many times, or you cannot remember

17 whether he ever saw him in the camp?

18 A. I cannot remember whether I saw him or not.

19 Q. Sir, do you have any fears for you or your family as

20 a result of your testifying here today?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Can you tell us whether or not that is affecting your

23 ability to remember things or not?

24 A. That does have some influence and I also have a fairly

25 bad memory, because these things happened almost seven

Page 6682

1 years ago -- five years ago.

2 Q. Sir, do you know whether or not at the time you first

3 were interviewed by the Office of the Prosecutor and

4 since you have been at The Hague, on those occasions did

5 you remember if you saw Mr. Delalic in the camp at all?

6 JUDGE JAN: Are you cross-examining your own witness?

7 MS. McHENRY: No, your Honour, I am asking certain

8 questions to find out -- I do not want to make

9 representations to the court, but I think I am certainly

10 entitled in these circumstances, this is certainly a

11 very unusual situation and I am entitled to find out the

12 basis for the witness's testimony.

13 JUDGE JAN: Possibly declaring a hostile eyewitness or what?

14 MS. McHENRY: Your Honour, I have not done that yet, and

15 I do not know in this kind of Tribunal such formalistic

16 things are necessary, but I think at the moment I am

17 entitled to enquire whether or not he has very quickly

18 forgotten a number of things and I would ask permission

19 to go forward, obviously he will answer as he wishes.

20 MR. O'SULLIVAN: Your Honours, may I address you on this

21 matter? My learned friend has asked twice about his

22 recollection, he has answered twice. He has told that

23 he has answered to the best of his ability. I submit

24 that that closes this matter, this line of questioning.

25 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: About a particular matter, is that it?

Page 6683

1 MR. O'SULLIVAN: That is correct, your Honour.

2 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: You can proceed on other areas.

3 MS. McHENRY: Let me ask you, sir, generally, is it the

4 case that when you are testifying here right now you are

5 forgetting things that you knew within the last few days

6 as well as when the Office of the Prosecutor interviewed

7 you at the end of April of this year?

8 MR. OLUJIC: Objection, your Honour. The witness answered

9 that question.

10 MS. McHENRY: I am sorry, I do not believe the witness has

11 answered that question.

12 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: I think this is a new question,

13 different from his remembering whether Mr. Delalic has

14 been in the camp or not. This is quite different. That

15 was why I limited the possibility of pursuing the

16 earlier question.

17 MR. MORAN: Your Honour, I would object that she is

18 impeaching her own witness.

19 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: She is not doing that. She is asking

20 him other questions.

21 A. I do remember now, I did see him on one occasion when

22 there was an oath being declared and once when he came

23 to the office and he spoke to Mr. Zdravko Mucic;

24 definitely.

25 Q. Can you remember, sir, if that was the only -- if those

Page 6684

1 were the only occasions that you saw Mr. Delalic in the

2 camp, or are you saying that you just cannot remember if

3 there were other occasions also?

4 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: You are returning to the earlier

5 question which you had abandoned.

6 MS. McHENRY: You are right, your Honour, but given that he

7 has given a specific answer to this question, I think

8 I just need to clarify this. I am just trying to

9 clarify exactly -- he now remembers something and I am

10 trying to clarify exactly what he remembers. I am not

11 doing anything other than trying to clarify the record.

12 I am not trying to impeach him. I am just trying to

13 find out what exactly his memory is. Sir, can you just

14 say whether or not --

15 MS. RESIDOVIC: Objection, your Honour. The witness has

16 just answered that question precisely, twice and the

17 exact occasions when he saw. There is no basis for

18 different questions.

19 MS. McHENRY: If I might briefly respond. First of all, in

20 general I would ask whether or not there is a rule that

21 one Defence counsel objects for each accused, and

22 secondly, I would ask that I think it is impossible to

23 say that this witness's answer about what he does and

24 does not remember is clear from this answer. Again I am

25 not trying to impeach him, I am just trying to find out

Page 6685

1 if he is sure those are the only times he saw Mr. Delalic

2 or he does not remember now.

3 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: You can put the question to him.

4 MS. McHENRY: Sir, do you remember whether or not those are

5 the -- can you say whether or not those are the only

6 times Mr. Delalic came to the camp or whether or not you

7 just do not remember if there were other occasions?

8 A. Yes, I do remember seeing him twice, he did come to the

9 camp. Whether he came again when I was away maybe yes,

10 maybe no, I really do not know.

11 Q. Sir, can you describe the workings of the prison; in

12 other words were there written instructions to the

13 guard, was there a code of conduct or procedure, were

14 there regularly scheduled meetings? Can you just

15 discuss how that worked?

16 A. There were no particular instructions for guards as to

17 how to treat the prisoners. There were no meetings

18 regarding that.

19 Q. Did Mr. Mucic normally communicate directly with the

20 guards, or did he communicate with his deputy commander

21 normally? Can you just explain a little bit about how

22 that worked?

23 A. He usually communicated with Hazim Delic. He probably

24 sometimes asked the guards how things were going on in

25 the camp.

Page 6686

1 Q. How did you in particular receive your instructions,

2 sir?

3 A. I got instructions from Hazim Delic.

4 Q. Did you ever receive instructions from Mr. Mucic?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. During the time you worked at the camp, sir, can you

7 describe the conditions for the prisoners? I would

8 first ask you to describe the physical conditions, for

9 instance the sleeping facilities, the toilet and bathing

10 facilities.

11 A. The conditions were very difficult, especially in the

12 tunnel. People usually slept on concrete or on clothing

13 they had, perhaps some extra clothing they had. As for

14 hygiene conditions, they had some kind of improvised

15 toilets. They sometimes took baths.

16 Q. Can you describe how exactly it was that the prisoners

17 took baths and approximately how frequently these

18 occasions were?

19 A. It depends. Sometimes they washed once a week,

20 sometimes they had one in three weeks, but it was mainly

21 an improvised bath with cold water.

22 Q. Can you just please explain a little bit more -- when

23 you say it was improvised baths, exactly how did it

24 work?

25 A. They helped one another during the washing because, as

Page 6687

1 I said, they did not have any special toilets or places

2 to take baths, it was just cold water. They had a tap

3 with holes.

4 Q. How many prisoners would take a bath at the same time?

5 A. I cannot remember how many washed at the same time, but

6 during the day, they would all finish the washing and

7 they would be left out in the sun to dry so they could

8 go back inside the hangar where it was much cooler.

9 Q. Did they wash themselves or did someone spray them with

10 water?

11 A. They washed each other, they helped each other wash.

12 Q. How many times did you yourself see this occasion where

13 the prisoners were allowed to help each other wash?

14 A. I saw it two or three times.

15 Q. Do you remember, was it just two or three prisoners

16 there at a time or 200 prisoners there at a time?

17 A. It was a group of five or six prisoners who were helping

18 each other wash. When they finished there would be

19 another group and so on.

20 Q. In terms of this time period where the prisoners were

21 allowed to wash each other and then sit outside in the

22 sun to dry, do you know approximately when this was?

23 A. It was some time in summer when it was very hot.

24 Q. Do you know if it was before or after the Red Cross

25 visit?

Page 6688

1 A. I think it was after the Red Cross visit.

2 Q. How frequently did you yourself go inside the hangars?

3 A. Not that often. The only thing was I would go to the

4 door, I would go in from the door, but there was a very

5 unpleasant smell inside.

6 Q. Sir, can you describe the food the prisoners got, where

7 it came from, what it was like?

8 A. They received food from the town, but exactly where they

9 cooked it, I really do not know. It was some kind of

10 soups, thick soups with bread. They received certain

11 quantities of bread and sometimes they received

12 sometimes twice a day, sometimes once a day, sometimes

13 up to three times a day.

14 Q. Do you remember approximately when it was that the

15 prisoners received food three times a day and how

16 frequent it was that the prisoners were fed three times

17 a day?

18 A. I cannot remember exactly when it was that they received

19 food three times a day, but they mainly received food

20 twice a day.

21 Q. Sir, going back for a minute, you indicated that there

22 was a very unpleasant smell inside the hangar. Can you

23 please explain why there was a very unpleasant smell

24 inside the hangar?

25 A. Because it was very hot and the hangar was built of

Page 6689

1 aluminium and probably because people sweated inside and

2 because they could not wash every day. That is probably

3 why there was an unpleasant smell.

4 Q. Did the prisoners and the guards eat the same food?

5 A. No.

6 Q. Where did the food for the guards come from?

7 A. Very often food was prepared in the prison itself, and

8 sometimes it was brought from town for the guards as

9 well.

10 Q. When food was prepared in the prison itself was that for

11 the guards only, or was it also for the prisoners?

12 A. Only for the guards.

13 Q. When the food came from the town for the guards, was it

14 the same food as the prisoners got or different food?

15 A. Only for the guards, it was different food.

16 Q. Sir, did any of the prisoners -- did the prisoners

17 appear adequately nourished?

18 A. I do not understand. What do you mean "adequately"?

19 I do not understand what the word "adequately" means.

20 Q. Did the prisoners appear like they had sufficient,

21 enough food?

22 A. No, they did not have enough food and since food was not

23 of very good quality, as I said, those were mainly

24 soups, creamy soups.

25 Q. Sir, were there any manholes in the prison?

Page 6690

1 A. Yes, there were, very close to the tunnel.

2 Q. Were any prisoners ever placed inside these manholes,

3 sir?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Please describe exactly what you saw and heard about

6 prisoners being placed in the manholes?

7 A. They were mainly putting prisoners from the tunnel in

8 there, as far as I know. I think that one of them was

9 the brother of Zarko Mr.kajic, but I am not certain.

10 They would leave them there, sometimes overnight.

11 Q. Do you know whether or not there was water in these

12 manholes when the prisoners were placed in them?

13 A. Yes, there was water.

14 Q. When the prisoners were placed in the manhole, is this

15 when you were a driver or before that?

16 A. When I was a driver, and whether they had done it before

17 or not, I do not know.

18 Q. What kind of toilet facilities were there in the tunnel,

19 sir?

20 A. The same as in the hangars, they had improvised toilets

21 somewhere on the side, but conditions were the same

22 basically.

23 Q. Sir, can you tell the court whether or not any of the

24 prisoners were ever mistreated by being beaten or

25 tortured?

Page 6691

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Was this just a few prisoners or was it more than that?

3 A. It was a considerable number.

4 Q. Was it persons who worked in the camp or persons from

5 outside the camp or both who beat the prisoners?

6 A. It was done by some people from the camp and there were

7 also people coming from the outside, outside the camp.

8 Q. Sir, how do you know that prisoners were being beaten in

9 the camp?

10 A. Sometimes I saw it myself, such as in the case of Bato

11 Kuljanin, when some team came from outside the prison

12 and they took him inside to an office, and they beat him

13 there for quite a while.

14 Q. Can you just tell me what you saw or heard of this

15 specific beating? Can you please tell us everything you

16 remember about that, including when it was, how you knew

17 about it, what you yourself could see or hear?

18 A. For example, when the policemen were killed in Repovci,

19 they thought some Serbs had done it, and when the guards

20 came back from Repovci they beat up the prisoners in the

21 hangar in the back, and there were some other cases.

22 Q. Sir, with respect to some of the beatings that you

23 yourself saw, did you know the name of the victim?

24 A. For example, Zara Mrkajic, who was beat up once by some

25 people coming from outside, I think they were from the

Page 6692

1 MUP, I am not sure. Then his brother, I cannot recall

2 his first name, then -- I mentioned Bato Kuljanin

3 already. Then there was somebody called Mici, I cannot

4 exactly remember his name. There were others but

5 I cannot recall their names.

6 Q. With respect to Bato Kuljanin, could you please tell us

7 in more detail whether or not you remember anything about that

8 beating in particular. For instance, do you remember

9 when it was? When could you see and what could you

10 hear?

11 A. I heard that the main reason was that they wanted to put

12 the blame on him, that he had killed a soldier in Donje

13 Selo during the operations there and the name of that

14 soldier was Velija and they wanted to put the blame for

15 that killing on him. By beating him, they wanted to

16 force him to confess. As far as I heard later, he would

17 not confess, and they beat him almost all night.

18 Q. Sir, could you hear the beatings as they were going on?

19 Could you hear anything when the beatings were going on?

20 A. Yes, one could hear his screams and moans and then he

21 said that they had put scissors up his nose, they beat

22 him with fists probably. When he came out I saw him.

23 When he came out of the office, his whole head was black

24 and blue.

25 Q. Do you know approximately when this was?

Page 6693

1 A. I cannot remember exactly.

2 Q. Could you please tell us exactly what you saw with

3 respect to Zara Mrkajic.

4 A. On one occasion he was tied to a pillar, the electricity

5 pile, the handcuffs. He was beaten before that and

6 later he was tied to the pole and he was left there for

7 about four or five hours. Then they beat him while he

8 was there.

9 Q. Do you know approximately when this was?

10 A. No, I do not know exactly when this happened.

11 Q. Who was it who beat Zara Mrkajic?

12 A. These were some people from outside the prison, not from

13 the prison. I cannot say exactly, I cannot remember who

14 they were.

15 Q. With respect to Zara Mrkajic's brother, please tell us

16 exactly what you remember about that beating.

17 A. He was in the tunnel and he was reported to be a

18 prominent Serbian soldier, so he received a lot of

19 beatings. For a time he went on a hunger strike, he

20 refused to eat.

21 Q. Sir, do you know if he refused to eat or that he was not

22 physically able to eat?

23 A. No, he refused to eat. He went on a hunger strike, and

24 then later, two or three days later, as far as I can

25 recall, he started taking food again.

Page 6694

1 Q. You indicated he received a lot of beatings. Can you

2 estimate about how many times he was beaten?

3 A. As far as I know I saw and heard that he was beaten at

4 least three or four times. Whether it was more than

5 that, I do not know, and who beat him, I cannot remember

6 exactly.

7 Q. Sir, how about approximately when it was he was beaten.

8 Even if you cannot remember the day, can you tell us

9 what your duties were at that time?

10 A. I was a driver.

11 Q. Mici, sir. Would you please tell the court what you

12 yourself saw or heard with respect to the beating of

13 Mici?

14 A. I heard that he was exposed to a lot of beatings in the

15 prison, and I heard Zijad Landzo once boasting that he

16 had beat him. All in all, I remember that he was beaten

17 a lot because before the war they said that he was also

18 a prominent Serb fighter.

19 Q. Did you yourself ever see when Mici was beaten, or did

20 you see his injuries?

21 A. I saw his injuries, but I did not personally observe the

22 beating. I heard from Zijad Landzo that he had beaten

23 him.

24 Q. You have mentioned an Zijad Landzo. Can you please

25 describe -- first of all, was Mr. Zijad Landzo a person

Page 6695

1 inside the camp or not?

2 A. Yes, he was in the camp. He was a guard.

3 Q. Was he called Esad or did he have a nickname?

4 A. He had a nickname, it was Zenga.

5 Q. What was he called in the camp? Was he called by his

6 nickname or by his real name?

7 A. They called him by his nickname, Zenga.

8 Q. Did you know this person from before the war?

9 A. No, I did not.

10 Q. How do you know his real name?

11 A. I learnt it in the prison.

12 Q. How often would you see Zenga in the camp?

13 A. He was there non-stop.

14 Q. Was there anyone else called Zenga in the camp?

15 A. No, there was not.

16 Q. Was there anyone else with the last name of Landzo in

17 the camp?

18 A. Landzo -- as far as I know, no.

19 Q. Can you please describe what Zenga looked like?

20 A. He was not very tall, he was of medium height. He liked

21 to have his head shaved. That is it.

22 Q. Approximately how old was he?

23 A. I do not know exactly, perhaps 18, 19, 20.

24 Q. Did I understand you correctly that you sometimes heard

25 Zenga's voice?

Page 6696

1 A. Yes, he had a very specific kind of voice, as if he

2 spoke through the nose, nasally.

3 Q. Can you please tell us what you remember about him

4 saying about the beatings of Mici?

5 A. I heard him say on one occasion that he had beaten him

6 up. For how long he beat him I do not know.

7 Q. Did he say anything about why he beat him?

8 A. No, he did not.

9 Q. Did he say anything about how badly he had beaten him?

10 A. I do not know. I do not remember.

11 Q. Do you remember what Zenga's attitude was when he talked

12 about this? What was his demeanour?

13 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honour, I am going to object to that.

14 I think that calls for some kind of a conclusion about

15 what this witness thinks his demeanour might have been.

16 I do not think that is capable of description.

17 JUDGE JAN: I think he said he boasted.

18 MS. McHENRY: I am sorry your Honour, if that is already in

19 the record, I missed it.

20 Sir, even if you yourself do not remember the name

21 of the victim, did you also yourself see other beatings

22 other than the ones where you have told us you remember

23 the name of the victim? Do you need me to repeat the

24 question, sir?

25 A. No, there is no need. It is difficult to remember the

Page 6697

1 names of prisoners because these were people I saw for

2 the first time, and there were many prisoners and all

3 this happened five years ago.

4 Q. I am sorry, sir, maybe my question was not clear. Is it

5 the case that you yourself saw other beatings but you

6 just now do not remember the name of the victim, or you

7 never knew the name of the victim. In other words, I am

8 not asking you the name of the victim, I am asking you

9 whether or not other than the beatings you described of

10 Bato, Zara, Zara's brother and Mici, did you yourself

11 see other beatings even if you do not know the name of

12 the victim?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Were some of these beatings that you saw done by persons

15 who worked inside the camp?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Could you please tell the court what you yourself saw,

18 and would you please start with a particular incident.

19 Even if you do not remember the name of the victim, can

20 you say what you yourself saw. If you know the names of

21 the persons, the people who were doing the beating, what

22 happened, can you please tell us.

23 A. There were some guards for instance who came from other

24 towns in Bosnia-Herzegovina, Srebenica, Zepca who were

25 there, as they were chased away by the Serbs from their

Page 6698

1 towns and they were rather cruel with the prisoners, and

2 some of them did not stay for long. Some of them did

3 stay for longer periods, I cannot remember their names.

4 They also beat the prisoners rather badly. For

5 instance, on one occasion I saw Hazim hitting a prisoner

6 with a crutch. I do not know the name. This was before

7 he became deputy commander of the camp. On several

8 occasions, he would use a baseball bat.

9 Q. Sir, can you give us the details, if you remember, of

10 any -- the details of when you saw Mr. Hazim use a

11 baseball bat to beat prisoners?

12 A. Simply when he saw a prisoner, he would, with no cause,

13 take the bat, sometimes he would be carrying it on him,

14 and he would hit him, without any reason.

15 Q. Just so the record is clear, Mr. Hazim, can you give us

16 the last name of the Mr. Hazim you are referring to?

17 A. Delic.

18 Q. Did you ever see any other persons in the camp use a

19 baseball bat to beat prisoners?

20 A. Yes, Zenga.

21 Q. Can you please tell us what you yourself saw Zenga do

22 with the baseball bat.

23 A. As far as I remember, I did not see him actually hitting

24 people with a baseball bat, I heard this from other

25 guards.

Page 6699

1 Q. Do you remember seeing Zenga with the baseball bat?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Did you ever yourself see Zenga beat any prisoner?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Was it on one occasion or more than one occasion?

6 A. I saw him on one occasion when he set light to prisoners

7 and this was recorded on the video. I cannot remember

8 other occasions.

9 Q. Besides what you have already testified about Mici, were

10 there ever any other occasions when you heard Zenga

11 refer to his treatment of prisoners?

12 A. I heard from other Serb prisoners with whom I was quite

13 close.

14 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honour, excuse me, I do not think he

15 should be testifying about what he heard from other

16 prisoners. That is hearsay; there is no name of those

17 other prisoners; no establishment of any kind of

18 reliability of what they might have said. The question

19 was specific as to what he heard from Zenga or what he

20 saw himself. It needs to be made clear that that is

21 what he is being asked and his answers need to be

22 specifically to that question, not what he heard from

23 other people whose names we cannot even get.

24 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Kindly limit your question to what he

25 himself saw and heard directly from the accused.

Page 6700

1 MS. McHENRY: Okay. With respect to this question, I will,

2 your Honour and then I may ask some other questions

3 which can be resolved at that time.

4 Sir, besides what you have already testified to

5 about Mici, do you remember ever hearing anything from

6 Zenga himself regarding his treatment of prisoners?

7 A. Yes, he would often say that they needed to be beaten.

8 He simply enjoyed it. He would probably do the same to

9 Croats if they had been there or somebody else.

10 Q. Sir, is it also the case that on some occasions you

11 heard from prisoners about their treatment from Zenga?

12 I am now not asking you what they told you, I am just

13 asking you if there were some occasions when prisoners

14 told you about their mistreatment by Zenga.

15 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honour, that gets to the same place in a

16 different direction. If he is permitted to testify that

17 prisoners told him, whether he says what it was they

18 said or not, the evidence is that they were telling him

19 things that Zenga was doing. We have not got the names

20 of any of those prisoners, there is no way to establish

21 the reliability of anything they said, so I object to

22 her going into that area at all unless the reliability

23 can be established in accordance with the Tadic rulings.

24 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: I do not see the necessity of that

25 question. It is not necessary. You are not referring

Page 6701

1 to a particular prisoner or a particular injury which is

2 he is reporting. Even if you were doing that -- will

3 you kindly pass to another question which is not

4 hearsay?

5 MS. McHENRY: Thank you. Sir, were there occasions when

6 you could hear beatings as they were going on, even if

7 you did not personally see them as they were going on?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Would you please explain what happened on those

10 occasions, what it was you could hear, if you know when

11 it was, how often?

12 A. These instances were frequent. You could see the

13 effects on them, the bruises they had. It was obvious

14 to look at them that they were exposed to torture.

15 Q. In addition to what you could see of the injuries on the

16 prisoners, is it the case that sometimes you could hear

17 beatings as they were going on?

18 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: I thought that was your last question

19 before he gave you the answer.

20 MS. McHENRY: That is right, your Honour. I think he gave

21 relevant evidence, but I am not sure it was exactly in

22 response to my question so I am repeating my question

23 because I think it may not have been clear to the

24 witness. Maybe if I can rephrase it it will be more

25 clear.

Page 6702

1 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: You are asking if he is hearing

2 beatings, even if he did not see them.

3 MS. McHENRY: That is exactly right, your Honour.

4 Sir, is it the case that on some occasions you

5 could hear a beating as it was going on, even if you

6 were not yourself able to see it; in other words could

7 you -- let me just ask that question.

8 A. Yes, there were such cases.

9 Q. How could you tell that there was a beating going on?

10 What kinds of things could you hear that let you know

11 there was a beating going on?

12 A. One could hear the cries of the men who were beaten up.

13 You could hear their moans and screams, and that is how

14 I knew.

15 Q. Okay. Sir, you just referred to a beating that was

16 recorded on video. First of all, sir, can you tell the

17 court who it was who --

18 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Perhaps we might have to stop here and

19 come back at 12.00.

20 (11.30 am)

21 (A short break)

22 (12.00 pm)

23 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Please remind the witness he is still

24 on his oath.

25 THE REGISTRAR: I would like to remind you you are still

Page 6703

1 under oath.

2 MS. McHENRY: May I ask that the witness's microphone be

3 turned on? Thank you.

4 Sir, you indicated that there was a particular

5 beating that was recorded on video; is that correct?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Would you please tell the court who recorded it on

8 video?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Could you please tell the court who it was who made the

11 tape recording, the video recording? Who was it?

12 A. I made the video recording.

13 Q. Would you please tell the judges exactly what you

14 recorded with your video camera?

15 A. First I recorded the prisoners in the hangar, those who

16 were in the big hangar, in the back, and then I recorded

17 faces of the prisoners and later I heard some cries and

18 screams which were coming from the back of the hangar.

19 Then I went there and I saw that two of the guards whose

20 names were Zijad Landzo and Osman Dedic, that they were

21 beating two prisoners and I recorded that with a

22 camera. I cannot remember exactly the names of the

23 prisoners. On that occasion, they were beating them,

24 and then burnt the socks on the feet of one of them, and

25 then they were burning for about a minute, a minute and

Page 6704

1 a half, then I stopped the recording and I left.

2 Q. Sir, let me go back for a minute. When you say that

3 this occurred in the back of the hangar, do you mean

4 inside the hangar toward the back or do you mean outside

5 the hangar in the back of the hangar?

6 A. The abuse took place in the back of the hangar, the big

7 hangar. It was behind the big hangar.

8 Q. Was it inside the hangar or outside the hangar in the

9 back of the hangar?

10 A. It was outside the hangar, behind it, behind the

11 back side of it.

12 Q. The prisoners, can you just tell the judges a little

13 more explicitly what you saw; for instance were the

14 prisoners clothed or not clothed?

15 A. One of them was completely naked and you could see

16 bruises on his back, and the other one had trousers and

17 socks on, which one of the guards, as I said, later set

18 on fire. That is it.

19 Q. Could you describe what you saw exactly in more detail,

20 what you remember about the beating; for instance, do

21 you know -- can you describe how it was and who it was

22 who set the prisoner's socks on fire?

23 A. The socks were set on fire by Zenga. Zenga set the

24 socks on fire on this prisoner, I think he was a taxi

25 driver, as far as I can recall, I cannot remember

Page 6705

1 exactly. I cannot remember who it was who was beating

2 the other prisoner who was completely naked.

3 Q. Was the prisoner a taxi driver whose name you do not

4 remember?

5 A. I cannot remember either of the names of the two, the

6 one whose socks were set on fire, he was a taxi driver

7 as far as I can remember.

8 Q. How far away, sir, were you when you filmed this beating

9 and torture?

10 A. Five to six metres, something like that.

11 Q. When you were present, how long were you present filming

12 this?

13 A. Perhaps two or three minutes, because the batteries were

14 running down on the camera and then I left.

15 Q. Why did you stop recording? In other words, was the

16 beating finished or did you stop for some other reason?

17 A. As I said, the batteries were running flat.

18 Q. When you left was the beating still going on?

19 A. That I do not know. I do not know whether it continued

20 or not.

21 Q. Sir, do you know approximately when this was? Even if

22 you do not remember a month, or what your duties were

23 at that time?

24 A. My duties were also those of a driver. It was some time

25 in summer.

Page 6706

1 Q. Sir, what happened to this videotape?

2 A. It stayed behind in Konjic, in the house where I had

3 lived.

4 Q. Do you know where the video is now?

5 A. No, I do not.

6 Q. Sir, did you yourself intervene at all to stop what was

7 going on?

8 A. I did not intervene because there was nothing I could

9 do, because I was just a guard, same as they were, and

10 my word would not have been of any help.

11 Q. Sir, were you asked, when you were first interviewed by

12 the Office of the Prosecutor, were you asked whether or

13 not you had recorded any video or beatings?

14 A. I did not understand the question.

15 Q. When you were first interviewed by Mr. Milner from the

16 Office of the Prosecutor, were you asked about whether

17 or not you had videotaped any mistreatment of prisoners?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Did you tell the truth about that at that time?

20 A. No, I did not.

21 Q. Why not?

22 A. I guess because I was afraid of saying that I had taped

23 it.

24 Q. Sir, during the time you were at Celebici camp did any

25 prisoners ever die?

Page 6707

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Approximately how many prisoners died when you were

3 working in Celebici?

4 A. As far as I can recall, perhaps 13 or 15. I am not

5 certain.

6 Q. Do you know how these prisoners died?

7 A. Some died probably due to the beatings, exhaustion,

8 perhaps age.

9 Q. Did any guards ever tell you anything about their own

10 involvement in the death of any prisoners?

11 A. No.

12 Q. Do you know the names of any prisoners who died while

13 you were working in the camp?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Can you give us the names of all the prisoners that

16 died -- all the names that you remember of the prisoners

17 who died.

18 A. I remember Klimenta Zeljko.

19 Q. Is that the only name you remember at this time, sir?

20 A. Yes, I just cannot remember.

21 Q. With respect to Mr. Klimenta, how did he die?

22 A. One morning when the prisoners went outside to go to the

23 toilet and for the morning wash, one of the guards was

24 making jokes with him that he was going to kill him

25 and he had a bullet in the barrel. I do not know if he

Page 6708

1 had known about it, he fired the bullet and he hit him,

2 that is how he was killed, at least that was what he

3 said. Whether that was true or not I do not know.

4 Q. Did you hear this from the guard who killed the

5 prisoner?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Do you know the name of that guard?

8 A. His name was Samir -- I cannot remember his last name.

9 Q. Did Mr. Klimenta have a nickname?

10 A. Keljo.

11 Q. Besides what you have already -- sir, did you ever see

12 any corpses while you were in the camp?

13 A. Yes, twice.

14 Q. Could you please tell the judges what you saw about --

15 exactly what happened when you saw the corpses, how it

16 was that you saw them, what you could see?

17 A. They were wrapped in some blankets, we could not see

18 their bodies, and I was ordered to drive them to the

19 morgue in Konjic and the circumstances of their death,

20 that I did not know.

21 Q. First of all, was this on two separate occasions that

22 you saw these corpses, or was there one occasion when

23 you saw two corpses?

24 A. Separate occasions.

25 Q. Was this at the same time that Keljo was killed, or were

Page 6709

1 these two occasions on different occasions?

2 A. I cannot remember precisely when it happened.

3 Q. Is it possible that one of the corpses you saw was

4 Keljo's or not? Can you answer that question?

5 A. I do not know.

6 Q. Did these two occasions when you were ordered to drive

7 the corpses to the morgue, was this during the time that

8 you were a driver in the camp?

9 A. While I was a driver.

10 Q. Yes. Did these occasions -- were you ordered to drive

11 these corpses to the morgue because you were a driver?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Do you remember who ordered you to bring these corpses

14 to the morgue?

15 A. I am not 100 per cent certain. I think it was Hazim

16 Delic, but I am not certain.

17 Q. Where were the bodies when you first saw them?

18 A. They were inside a car, in the back of a car.

19 Q. Do you know who loaded the bodies into the car?

20 A. No, I do not.

21 Q. Were you ever told the names of who these bodies were?

22 A. As far as I can recall, no.

23 Q. Can you tell us where the morgue or funeral -- can you

24 tell us where it was that you brought the bodies to,

25 more specifically? For instance, was it a morgue or was

Page 6710

1 it a funeral company? Where was it located?

2 A. It was a funeral company in Konjic, in the town.

3 I cannot remember, I think it was close to the MUP where

4 the cemetery was.

5 Q. When you got to the funeral company, did you have to

6 give them any paperwork? Did they ask whose bodies they

7 were? Would you please tell us exactly what happened

8 when you got to the funeral company?

9 A. They did not ask for any documents, they simply took

10 them and perhaps they received a telephone call earlier

11 as to what to do with the corpses, I do not know.

12 Q. Going back for a minute to when Keljo -- Mr. Klimenta was

13 killed, do you know, was he killed also during the time

14 that you were a driver?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Were you a driver most of the time you worked in the

17 camp, sir?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. In addition to your two occasions driving bodies to the

20 funeral company, do you know whether or not the funeral

21 company mortuary van also occasionally visited the camp

22 to pick up bodies?

23 A. As far as I could see, no, I never saw them. Perhaps

24 they did come when I was not there. Perhaps a vehicle

25 was there, I was not paying any attention to that.

Page 6711

1 Perhaps it was a civilian vehicle that drove them,

2 because many vehicles came and went.

3 Q. Sir, were there any investigations into the deaths of

4 any of the prisoners, the 13 to 15 prisoners who died

5 while you worked in the camp?

6 A. As far as I know, no.

7 Q. Were there any investigations into the beatings of

8 prisoners?

9 A. No, there were not.

10 Q. Sir, in addition to what you have already testified to,

11 did any of, besides what you heard from Mr. Landzo and

12 this person -- I am sorry, what did you say the name of

13 the guard was who told you about what happened to Keljo,

14 Mr. Klimenta?

15 A. Samir.

16 Q. Do you know whether or not it also could have been Amir?

17 A. Samir, Almir, something like that.

18 Q. Sir, besides what you have talked about or what you

19 heard from Zenga and from Samir or Almir, did you ever

20 hear anyone else who worked in the camp say anything

21 about their own involvement in beating and other

22 mistreatment of prisoners? With respect to

23 mistreatment, I am including sexual assaults.

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Can you please tell us from whom you heard this and what

Page 6712

1 was said?

2 A. I heard from Hazim Delic, I heard him say that he had

3 already reached number 18, that he had raped 18 Serb

4 women, and he said that he was going to stop once he

5 reached number 100.

6 Q. Sir, were prisoners beaten in Mr. Mucic's presence?

7 A. No.

8 Q. Did Mr. Mucic know that prisoners were beaten when he was

9 not present?

10 MR. OLUJIC: Objection, your Honour. The witness has already

11 said no, and I do not know why the distinguished

12 representative of the Prosecution insists. He said he

13 was not there and he said he did not know.

14 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: The two questions are not the same.

15 The first one, were prisoners beaten in Mucic's

16 presence; he said no. The second question: whether he

17 knew that they were beaten when he was not there. They

18 are two different questions. I hope you understand

19 that. You can go on.

20 MS. McHENRY: Thank you. Sir, did Mr. Mucic know that

21 prisoners were beaten when he was not present?

22 A. He probably knew when he came from town, because he

23 would visit the prison, as he could probably see on them

24 some consequences, bruises.

25 Q. Do you know whether -- did you yourself ever speak to

Page 6713

1 Mr. Mucic about the beatings that occurred when he was

2 not present?

3 A. As far as I can recall, when we spoke he said that he

4 was doing everything within his powers and he was not

5 able to protect when he was not there.

6 Q. Do I understand you, sir, to mean that you did talk to

7 him about the beatings, and then he gave you this

8 answer; is that correct?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Can you please tell us more specifically what you

11 remember telling Mr. Mucic about the beatings?

12 A. I cannot remember precisely what I had said.

13 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: He said he cannot remember.

14 MS. McHENRY: Sir, even if you cannot remember precisely

15 what you said, do you ever remember discussing with him

16 a specific incident, when you either saw or heard a

17 beating occurring?

18 A. Yes, on one occasion some soldiers came from outside the

19 camp and then they beat one prisoner, and then he

20 shouted a lot, and the next day I told him that these

21 prisoners came from the outside and he said that he

22 could not prevent it. If he had been there perhaps he

23 probably would have prevented it, because there were

24 these other units and other people who were more

25 dangerous to whom one could say nothing. They could

Page 6714

1 simply come to the prison to do whatever they wanted.

2 Q. When you say you told him about this incident, how do

3 you mean by him? Who did you tell about this incident

4 where the prisoner was screaming a lot?

5 A. To Zdravko Mucic.

6 Q. Thank you. Did you tell Mr. Mucic from how far away you

7 could hear the screams of this prisoner?

8 A. You could hear screaming at quite a distance.

9 Q. Do you remember what you told Mr. Mucic about how far

10 away you could hear the screams from?

11 A. I cannot recall.

12 Q. Do you also remember talking to Mr. Mucic about the fact

13 that persons who worked in the camp beat prisoners?

14 A. I think I did.

15 Q. Can you please tell us what you remember; for instance,

16 who did you tell him was mistreating prisoners when he

17 was not there?

18 A. I said how Hazim was mistreating the prisoners, and some

19 other guards, like Zenga and the soldiers coming from

20 other parts of Bosnia, from other towns in

21 Bosnia-Herzegovina. When I said that he would say,

22 "well I am doing the best I can". When he was there he

23 would say nobody would touch them.

24 Q. Did you give Mr. Mucic a copy of your videotape of Zenga

25 and Mr. Osman Dedic beating and torturing the prisoners?

Page 6715

1 A. No.

2 Q. Why not?

3 A. First I was a little scared, and secondly, I thought

4 perhaps they did not know. I do not know why.

5 I thought they would not do anything because I had done

6 that.

7 Q. Do you know if anyone else besides you ever spoke to

8 Mr. Mucic about the mistreatment of prisoners when he was

9 not present?

10 A. I do not know.

11 Q. Did you ever see Mr. Mucic ask a prisoner how he received

12 his injuries?

13 A. I do not know, I cannot remember.

14 Q. Will you please tell the court exactly what Mr. Mucic did

15 to prevent or punish the mistreatment of prisoners?

16 A. As far as I can remember, sometimes he would shout at

17 Hazim and at some of the guards, telling them off for

18 beating them, but as for any concrete steps I do not

19 know exactly. Maybe he did, but I cannot remember.

20 Q. Do you yourself know of any guards who were ever

21 disciplined for the mistreatment of prisoners?

22 A. No, I do not know.

23 Q. Was the mistreatment going on at Celebici camp known

24 outside the camp?

25 A. There were many stories going around town from the

Page 6716

1 locals that the prisoners were being tortured, and one

2 could hear also over the Serb media, the radio. My

3 father told me that I should abandon the prison because

4 things were happening there that he had heard of, from

5 other people probably.

6 Q. Did you yourself ever hear any radio reports about the

7 mistreatment going on at Celebici during the time you

8 were working there?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Did anyone ever ask you in any cafes or when you were in

11 the town about the mistreatment in Celebici?

12 A. I cannot remember. I think not.

13 Q. You mentioned before, sir, in your testimony that there

14 was a time when the Croats -- I am sorry.

15 Sir, do you know who Mr. Mucic's superior was?

16 A. Mr. Zejnil Delalic.

17 Q. How do you know that?

18 A. By the stories of other people and from the soldiers.

19 Q. Did Mr. Mucic ever refer to Zejnil Delalic?

20 A. I do not quite understand the question.

21 Q. Did you ever hear Mr. Mucic talk about Mr. Zejnil Delalic?

22 A. Perhaps on a couple of occasions, as far as I can

23 remember, but nothing significant. That is why I do not

24 remember it.

25 Q. Sir, do you know if Mr. Mucic ever spoke to Mr. Zejnil

Page 6717

1 Delalic about the conditions in the camp?

2 MR. O'SULLIVAN: Your Honour, he just answered the question.

3 His answer was that nothing significant was ever

4 discussed as far as he knows between these two men,

5 Mucic and Delalic. His answer was clear, I believe.

6 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: I do not know how that covers the next

7 question. It is a more specific question. If he does

8 not know, he will say so.

9 MS. McHENRY: Sir, do you know if Mr. Mucic ever spoke to

10 Mr. Zejnil Delalic about the conditions in the camp?

11 A. Yes, he did. I just remembered. On one occasion he was

12 saying that there were quite a number of old men, and

13 there were even some minors there and that there were

14 innocent people who should be released and anyway, it

15 was difficult to feed them because there was a shortage

16 of food. After that, some releases of prisoners did

17 begin.

18 Q. Sir, if I can just clarify, when you say "he", who are

19 you referring to? When you say "he was saying that

20 there were a number of old men and minors and innocent

21 people", who was saying that?

22 A. Pavo, I was thinking of Zdravko Mucic.

23 Q. In that conversation, did he indicate anything about

24 Zejnil Delalic?

25 A. I cannot remember.

Page 6718

1 Q. Sir, I am not sure if I understood your question.

2 MR. O'SULLIVAN: Your Honour, he gave an answer, he did not

3 pose a question. I think his answer was quite clear.

4 He said he could not remember.

5 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: That is sufficient. If he cannot

6 remember, he cannot remember.

7 MS. McHENRY: That is right, your Honour, I am not going to

8 ask him what he can remember. Maybe it is clear to

9 Defence counsel, but given that he has previously said

10 he knows that there was a conversation between Mr. Mucic

11 and Mr. Delalic about the conditions in the camp, I can

12 at least try to clarify what this witness remembers, if

13 anything, about that, because frankly, your Honours,

14 I am confused.

15 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Why ask him if he says he cannot

16 remember anything about that conversation?

17 MS. McHENRY: Sir, did I understand you correctly that

18 there was a conversation between Mr. Mucic and Mr. Delalic

19 about conditions in the camp and you just cannot

20 remember what was said about it?

21 MR. O'SULLIVAN: That has been asked and answered, your

22 Honour.

23 MS. McHENRY: I do not believe so, your Honour.

24 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: He says he cannot remember that

25 conversation.

Page 6719

1 MS. McHENRY: Your Honour, that is right and I am just

2 clarifying because as I --

3 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: That he still cannot remember it?

4 MS. McHENRY: No, that he remembers that there was a

5 conversation.

6 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: But he does not remember what --

7 MS. McHENRY: The details, exactly. That is what I am

8 trying to clarify because I want the record to be

9 clear. I at least want to understand. That is why, as

10 I understand the record now, the witness has said that

11 he knows there was a conversation between Mr. Mucic and

12 Mr. Delalic about conditions in the camp.

13 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: But he cannot remember --

14 MS. McHENRY: But he cannot remember the specifics.

15 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Yes, that is what he has said.

16 MS. McHENRY: May I just ask if my understanding is

17 correct, your Honour?

18 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Okay, ask him.

19 MS. McHENRY: Sir, am I correct that you remember that

20 there was a conversation but you do not remember the

21 specifics?

22 A. Pavo told me on one occasion that he had spoken to

23 Zejnil Delalic about the conditions of the prisoners and

24 that there were quite a lot of old men, children and

25 innocent people, they should be released because they

Page 6720

1 were a burden. They did not have enough food.

2 Q. Thank you. Sir, did the Red Cross -- sir, do you know

3 if there was any preparation done for the Red Cross

4 visit?

5 A. Before the Red Cross came orders arrived to treat the

6 Serb prisoners better, and then they gave them a chance

7 to shave, to bathe, to improve their appearance, and

8 that is it.

9 Q. Did conditions change after the visit of the Red Cross?

10 A. Yes, for a short time, but then things resumed as

11 before. Some of them continued to be beaten, and

12 I think that after the Red Cross visit they were allowed

13 to bathe.

14 Q. Sir, when you say that orders came down before the

15 Red Cross came to make the prisoners look better, do you

16 know who gave those orders?

17 A. I do not know who made the orders.

18 Q. Sir, you stated previously -- I am sorry.

19 During the summer when you worked there, can you

20 estimate approximately how many prisoners were in the

21 camp?

22 A. Perhaps about 150, 120.

23 Q. About how many prisoners were in the camp when you left

24 Celebici, I believe you said some time around October or

25 November?

Page 6721

1 A. I cannot remember exactly, because some of them had been

2 released and how many exactly remained, I do not know.

3 Q. Who was commander at the time you left the camp?

4 A. I think that it was still Zdravko Mucic, but I am not

5 sure.

6 Q. Why did you leave the camp, sir?

7 A. Some conflicts had occurred, or there was strife between

8 the Croatian and the Muslim forces, so I did not feel

9 safe any more so I left.

10 Q. Sir, you have previously told the judges about the fact

11 that at least on one occasion you videotaped some of the

12 camp. Did anyone else, to your knowledge, ever

13 videotape parts of the camp?

14 A. On several occasions Zdravko Mucic made some videos and

15 some people from the Red Cross.

16 Q. When Mr. Mucic made some of the videos, were you present

17 on some of those occasions?

18 A. Yes.

19 MS. McHENRY: Your Honours, I would now like to show the

20 witness excerpts from Prosecution Exhibit 110, which is

21 also M1B. I would ask the assistance of the technical

22 support people.

23 MR. MORAN: Your Honour, we would object -- I do not believe

24 those are in evidence for all purposes. I think they

25 were only introduced into evidence for purposes of

Page 6722

1 identification as I recall. It was a limited admission,

2 so I would object to this witness being shown something

3 that is not in evidence.

4 MS. McHENRY: Your Honours, as I understand it, the tapes

5 are in evidence. This witness was present and can

6 identify the excerpts that are going to be shown to him

7 and just as in fact the Defence attorneys have

8 themselves frequently shown excerpts of videos to see if

9 a witness can identify and/or recognise things, the

10 Prosecution must be allowed to do the same thing.

11 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Who tendered them?

12 MS. McHENRY: Mr. Niemann tendered them. These are the

13 seized videotapes from Mr. Mucic's apartment. This

14 witness can identify and explain portions of those

15 videotapes. He can identify persons, he can recognise

16 places.

17 MR. MORAN: Your Honour, it seems to me that I think talking

18 about these on page 6513 of the transcript, Mr. Niemann

19 was trying to get them in and the presiding judge said:

20 "Actually, I prefer you to continue yourself to

21 the chain of custody. When the issue arises on the

22 contents of the tape you might be able to do so because

23 you might not be able to do it through him", him being

24 Mr. Panzer.

25 MS. McHENRY: Your Honour, as I understand it, what Defence

Page 6723

1 counsel is reading is exactly one of the reasons we want

2 to show the court these videos. Mr. Panzer cannot

3 identify or explain what is going on or recognise

4 people, since he was not there. This witness himself

5 was present on a number of occasions and can recognise

6 events, so in exactly the same way that the Defence

7 attorneys have frequently used excerpts from these very

8 videotapes, which had not been even at that time

9 admitted into evidence at all, for purposes of seeing if

10 the witness can identify them, certainly this witness

11 must be allowed to, with respect to these tapes.

12 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: If you intend to tender it through him

13 as the maker of that video, then you might be able to

14 tender them, but I am not sure you are claiming that he

15 is the maker.

16 MS. McHENRY: Your Honour, in fact this witness will

17 testify that in fact there are portions of the videotape

18 that he himself took with Mr. Mucic's camera, but besides

19 that, as Defence counsel has frequently done and as the

20 Prosecution has, I believe, on occasion done, if this

21 witness can identify what is happening and say it fairly

22 and accurately records what was actually happening, it

23 should not be necessary for the Prosecution to call the

24 maker of the video. He was present, he can watch the

25 video and he can say "yes, I recognise that. I was

Page 6724

1 there. I know who that person is". I believe generally

2 just the way we have photos and many videotapes, it is

3 not necessary to have the maker there as long as someone

4 can authenticate them and explain their relevance.

5 Defence counsel is now saying "you could not show them

6 to Mr. Panzer because he cannot recognise them or what

7 they are", and now saying this witness, who was himself

8 present, cannot even see them for purposes of telling

9 your Honours, "yes, I was there. I saw this", or

10 "I know what this is", or even "I recognise this

11 person's voice".

12 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: If he is party to the making of the

13 video definitely he might tender it as part of his

14 undertaking, but outside that, I think it might be

15 fairly difficult. If he was party to it ...

16 MR. MORAN: Your Honour, on direct, to me, this is a

17 relatively irregular procedure. Usually what I have

18 seen is -- if I am going to introduce it through one of

19 my witnesses, the witness outside the courtroom views

20 the tape or views the photographs or views whatever it

21 is, and then can testify that it fully, fairly,

22 accurately depicts whatever it depicts. It is not

23 normal, in my experience, to show it to the fact finders

24 to determine whether or not this guy can identify it.

25 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Maybe your experience might be a

Page 6725

1 limited one. If a person was party to the making of a

2 particular thing, he is entitled to indicate what aspect

3 of it is --

4 MR. MORAN: Clearly, your Honour, as long as he can identify

5 this tape as the tape.

6 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: If he can now tell us if the content --

7 if his participation is part of it, he can say so.

8 MR. MORAN: I agree with your Honour. It is just things that

9 he was not a party to, a party to the making of.

10 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: I hear he is, except that is not his

11 evidence.

12 MS. McHENRY: Your Honour, if I may just clarify, it is the

13 case that with respect to some of the videotapes, he

14 himself was present and a party to the making of it; he

15 himself participated in the video, and I will say that

16 the witness himself has seen at least portions of this

17 video, and that is one of the reasons I know he was

18 there.

19 It is also the case that Defence counsel,

20 including all Defence counsel, have on occasion shown

21 excerpts of video at least for identification purposes,

22 so that if something happened at a certain area, this

23 witness can at least testify as to if he recognised that

24 area and what it is; and/or if he recognises the voice.

25 So it is the case that with respect to some videos, this

Page 6726

1 witness was involved and present, and I can seek to show

2 those first.

3 With respect to the other videotapes -- and again

4 these are not lengthy excerpts, I estimate a half hour

5 or less for everything -- this witness should be allowed

6 to testify if he can recognise people's voices and/or

7 places, and particularly given in search warrant cases

8 where evidence is seized. Given that the Prosecution is

9 not permitted to call the accused, it may have to be

10 that someone other than the person making them can

11 testify as to what is in there and whether or not at

12 least -- even if they do not say this fairly and

13 accurately was taped, they can say, "I recognise where

14 this is", or, "I recognise this person's voice", or,

15 "I recognise who this is", and I think that will be

16 extremely helpful to your Honours in evaluating the

17 relevance and the weight to be given to these videotapes

18 which were taken. But if your Honours wish, I can

19 certainly start with the ones that he himself was

20 involved in and present at.

21 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: On the consideration that he is also

22 party to the making of it or he was there at the time

23 when it was made, he can tender them.

24 MS. McHENRY: Okay, your Honours.

25 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: At least he can identify the areas in

Page 6727

1 which he was involved.

2 MS. McHENRY: Yes, your Honour.

3 MS. RESIDOVIC: Your Honours, we have been listening to our

4 learned colleague for five minutes explaining to us that

5 this witness participated, and through his testimony we

6 only heard that he made a videotape which was left in

7 Konjic, so that there were no grounds laid. There were

8 certain leading matters put to the witness. Something

9 else I wish to draw attention to is something that

10 I already mentioned when these exhibits were identified

11 through the witness Panzer. At the time, I made it

12 clear that our general objection was regarding the whole

13 chain of custody and the procedure. When we tendered

14 something for identification, we indicated the source.

15 This time the Prosecutor has not proven the chain of

16 custody of these tapes, and we would like to have the

17 opportunity to argue this matter on some occasion to see

18 whether these exhibits have been admitted into evidence

19 or not.

20 We are now going to be shown a tape through a

21 witness who has nothing in common with this, and I think

22 that this is improper as procedure, and therefore before

23 any of those allegedly seized tapes are shown in this

24 courtroom that we first discuss this basic issue which

25 we have notified on the basis of Rule 63, and we also

Page 6728

1 made a motion to that effect, pursuant to provision 95.

2 Your direct answer to my question was that we would

3 argue these motions before these exhibits are admitted

4 into evidence. Thank you.

5 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: I think there is a lot of confusion

6 here, that confusion in the minds of counsel or

7 perhaps -- I do not know where it arises from. What you

8 are speaking to about this particular article is that it

9 was admitted under the principle of the chain of custody

10 and that is where it is. It has not been admitted as an

11 exhibit in the proceedings as a whole. Nobody has said

12 that it has been so admitted. If a part author of this

13 exhibit surfaces, and he is able to show that he also a

14 maker of it, then you may have the arguments whether

15 indeed he is.

16 If he is, he is entitled to tell the Tribunal what

17 part he has played in it, and the exhibit is entitled to

18 identify that aspect, and it could be admitted for that

19 purpose. But if you can show that he is not entitled to

20 say so, and he is not the maker of that particular

21 video, obviously the argument falls to the ground. It

22 is not enough merely to say that unless a particular

23 thing is -- so many people are involved in the making of

24 a thing. Any of them is entitled to make his claim to

25 that particular exhibit, so you do not really rule him

Page 6729

1 out because he is not the dominant maker. There might

2 be a dominant maker. There might be a subsidiary one.

3 All of them are entitled to say what part they played in

4 the whole exercise.

5 Here, I agree, there might be a problem in which a

6 witness has not indicated that he is also party to the

7 making of it. That is the only thing I say.

8 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honour, I was wanting to rise to say

9 pretty much what you just said. It seems to me the

10 proper way for the Prosecution to handle this is, as we

11 have handled it over here on this side of the room, and

12 that is when we have thought there were segments from a

13 tape that were admissible through a witness because that

14 witness was at the scene and could recognise the scene

15 by seeing the video and therefore authenticate it, we

16 have made excerpts and only presented those excerpts.

17 What they are trying to do is present a four hour tape

18 that this witness maybe saw ten minutes of. We are

19 about to have an hour and a half break. I would suggest

20 that the proper way is for the Prosecution to make an

21 excerpt of the parts they think might be admissible

22 through this witness and do it that way, because this is

23 not the way to admit the entire tape.

24 The issue, I think, your Honour, is whether or not

25 this witness was there when the tape was made and

Page 6730

1 recognises what he sees on the tape as a fair and

2 accurate representation of what he saw with his own

3 eyes. If he can say that, perhaps it is admissible

4 regardless of where it came from. If he recognises it,

5 it is just like a photograph or anything else. But to

6 try to get the entire tape in because a witness can see

7 part of it I think is improper and I think the

8 Prosecution has time now to do what I think you have

9 suggested and what I am suggesting in agreement.

10 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Actually, we will have to break now.

11 I will come back at 2.30 when I think you might have

12 thought about it.

13 MS. McHENRY: Thank you, your Honours.

14 (1.00 pm)

15 (Adjourned until 2.30 pm)

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

Page 6731

1 (2.30 pm)

2 MR. ACKERMAN: May I be heard just very briefly with regard

3 to the issue we were discussing right before lunch, your

4 Honour?

5 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Yes, let us hear it.

6 MR. ACKERMAN: Thinking about the issue over lunch, it has

7 occurred to me that the following situation exists right

8 now: there is pending before this Trial Chamber a

9 motion to suppress everything that came out of the

10 searches that were conducted by the Austrian police in

11 Vienna. If that motion to suppress is granted by this

12 Trial Chamber, then none of the items that were seized

13 as a result of those searches could be used in any way

14 in evidence in this case, at least that is my

15 understanding of the law of search and seizure. If the

16 search was illegal or improper and the items are to be

17 suppressed by this Trial Chamber, then the Prosecution's

18 attempt, for instance, today to use portions of videos

19 that were a result of those searches, would not have

20 been permitted because they would have been suppressed

21 by this Trial Chamber on the issue of the legality of

22 the search and seizure. That issue was raised at least

23 by the Delalic Defence by the filing of a proper

24 pre-trial motion and it seems to me that it must be

25 argued and decided before any evidence resulting from

Page 6732

1 those searches could be used in any way before this

2 Tribunal. I do not know what the solution to that is,

3 but it seems to me something must be dealt with in that

4 regard first.

5 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Can you respond?

6 MS. McHENRY: Yes, your Honour. I will just point out that

7 there is no pending motion to suppress. It is the case

8 that the Delalic Defence, quite properly, filed

9 initially a motion to suppress and on 9th October 1996,

10 there was an order by this Trial Chamber in which it

11 says:

12 "We hereby deny the Defence motion for the

13 exclusion of evidence."

14 So there is no pending motion to suppress. It is

15 correct that there was one previously, but there is not

16 one now. In any event even if that were the case which,

17 of course, it is not, your Honours we would still then

18 seek to at least have this witness identify the

19 materials and then if at some later point your Honours

20 decide that the material is not properly before you as

21 evidence, you may disregard it. So I would ask that we

22 just continue. Thank you.

23 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Yes?

24 MS. RESIDOVIC: Your Honour, perhaps I was not precise

25 before the adjournment. I just wanted to draw attention

Page 6733

1 to this question. On 28th May, 5th and 9th June 1996,

2 Mr. Delalic's Defence requested suppression of all

3 materials that were seized in Munich. Until three

4 months ago, the Prosecutor did not try in any way to

5 prove the legality of this procedure. Judge McDonald

6 decided to give order to the Prosecutor to return all

7 the items they did not need and that they could be used

8 for preparations and that we were informed that we

9 should raise the issue of admissibility once the issue

10 is raised before the court.

11 This Trial Chamber directed us towards this as

12 well. Therefore before presenting evidence -- before

13 the testimony of the Austrian police, we submitted, on

14 the basis of this decision of 9th October, another

15 request based on Rule 95, and again we are raising this

16 issue, and we believe that before this issue is decided

17 on there can be no permission for anything seized on the

18 premises to be used as evidence in the court or

19 presented to other witnesses. We believe that the way

20 in which this evidence was obtained would threaten the

21 legality of the procedure before the court.

22 We have not presented our final arguments yet. We

23 have heard the witnesses and the court is aware of

24 numerous problems that are there, but we believe, and

25 that is the last thing that I would like to say in this

Page 6734

1 respect, that before deciding on this issue, this

2 current request of the Defence, the aforementioned

3 documents cannot be used in the proceedings. Thank

4 you.

5 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: I think I have heard the arguments --

6 MS. RESIDOVIC: Excuse me, your Honours, just one more

7 sentence. The distinguished colleague McHenry presented

8 the decision, however, I call upon her words written on

9 the transcript and the tape on 22nd August, when during

10 an interview with Mr. Delalic, she presented some of the

11 documents and repeated exactly what I am saying now.

12 The use for the possibility of continuing the procedure

13 and our right, is the right that we are presenting now

14 and that that decision is what we expect from the court

15 before anything that was seized is presented as

16 evidence. Those are the words of Ms. McHenry recorded

17 both in the transcript and in the video recording.

18 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: From my understanding, I could not

19 think what is being done now is tendering the tape as

20 evidence in the proceedings. I think the Prosecution is

21 trying to get this witness to identify any portions of

22 the tapes which he has any knowledge in the production

23 of such tapes.

24 When perhaps it comes to tendering the tape,

25 I think the proper procedure will be adopted. You can

Page 6735

1 proceed with the witness.

2 MS. McHENRY: Thank you, your Honour. Your Honour, while

3 we are waiting for the witness I will just inform the

4 court and the Defence, the video section has been

5 working and I believe we will have some excerpts made in

6 a separate tape to show the witness, at least with

7 respect to one, because of time issues they did not have

8 time and what I would suggest is the procedure adopted

9 by the Defence attorneys, which is to show him certain

10 excerpts, which I believe he can recognise, and then

11 afterwards, after he has recognised them, then have the

12 video section make a separate tape and that will then be

13 different, but just for time, they did not have time to

14 do it beforehand, but we will not be showing the witness

15 the entire tape, nor will we be trying through this

16 witness to get the entire tape in.

17 I would also ask, your Honours, just for purposes

18 of convenience, and I previously in fact yesterday told

19 the Defence attorneys this, ask that an analyst, who is

20 very familiar with the videotapes, from the Office of

21 the Prosecutor, be permitted to be present in the video

22 room even though normally he would not be permitted to

23 watch the proceedings, just so that he can help the

24 video people get to the correct section more quickly.

25 I previously have informed the Defence counsel. Just

Page 6736

1 with respect to Mr. Alistair McLeod and only during the

2 time the videos are being shown I would ask permission

3 for him to be in the video room with the technical

4 people.

5 MR. MORAN: Your Honours, will Mr. McLeod be a witness, a fact

6 witness in the trial?

7 MS. McHENRY: He certainly is on our witness list and it is

8 possible he would be some sort of summary witness, but

9 if he is only present during the portions of the

10 videotape, I do not believe that could cause any problem

11 with his ultimate testimony, if it is necessary.

12 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honour, I just have one -- I really have

13 no response to what Ms. McHenry has just said, but I do

14 have a request. Consistent with the way this was

15 handled when the Defence wanted to use a tape just for

16 identification purposes with the witness Golubovic,

17 I would request that the sound either not be played or

18 that if it is, there be no interpretation of the

19 language on the tape since all the witness is going to

20 be asked to do is identify the tape, and the contents of

21 it are not being offered at this point, as I understand

22 it. That was what was done by the Chamber with

23 Golubovic when we offered it for identification, so

24 I think it would be fair to do it the same way.

25 MS. McHENRY: Your Honour, at least initially until he

Page 6737

1 recognises it, we do not have any objection, but it is

2 the case that we will be asking him, for instance, to

3 recognise certain voices and thus, since the witness was

4 present at the time, I believe it is entirely proper for

5 the translation -- for the sound to be heard and for the

6 translators to as much as possible translate.

7 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honour, translation will not assist him

8 in identification. That was the issue with Golubovic.

9 If he needs to hear it to help the identification, he

10 can hear it, but the translation does not enhance his

11 ability to identify it at all. It is just getting

12 before the Trial Chamber matters which are improper at

13 this point if all it is needed for is identification.

14 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: I think all we need is the sound at

15 this point.

16 (Witness entered court)

17 MS. McHENRY: That is proper, your Honour and if at some

18 point they are to be admitted into evidence, then we

19 will replay them with the translation, but that is fine,

20 your Honour, and I am sure translation would appreciate

21 it.

22 Before we do that, I just have a couple of

23 questions, because I have generally finished my direct

24 examination, with only the videos. Let me ask, please,

25 just a couple of questions before we get to the videos.

Page 6738

1 Sir, you mentioned previously that when you were

2 first in the camp, there was a group associated with the

3 Ministry of the Interior that was investigating the

4 prisoners; is that correct?

5 A. Yes, correct.

6 Q. Did there come a time when this commission or group left

7 the prison, stopped working in the prison?

8 A. Yes, at one point everybody left the prison when the

9 questioning of the prisoners was completed. I cannot

10 exactly recall when this happened.

11 Q. Who was the commander at the time the commission left

12 the prison?

13 A. I do not know exactly at the time whether it was Zdravko

14 Mucic who had already been appointed commander when they

15 left.

16 Q. Sir, was there a time when you were sent to the coast as

17 part of your duties as a driver?

18 A. I do not understand. To the coast?

19 Q. Was there a time when you were sent to a village on the

20 coast of Croatia called Podaci?

21 A. Yes, once I went to Croatia to pick up some supplies, it

22 was to the city of Split that I went -- no, somewhere

23 near Split, not exactly Split. I went to collect

24 supplies for the guards.

25 Q. What supplies were you picking up for the guards?

Page 6739

1 A. Those were mainly food items, sugar, wheat flour, tinned

2 food.

3 Q. Where did you stay? Do you know whose house it was you

4 stayed at when you went to the coast?

5 A. When we went to Croatia we stayed in Podaci in the house

6 of Mr. Zejnil Delalic. That is where we stayed one

7 night.

8 Q. Am I correct that Mr. Delalic -- at least you did not see

9 Mr. Delalic on that occasion?

10 A. No, I did not see him as far as I can recall.

11 MS. McHENRY: Thank you. Your Honour, now with the

12 assistance of the technical people, we would ask that

13 M1D, which is Prosecution Exhibit 112, be shown and at

14 various times I will stop to ask the witness if he can

15 recognise voices and/or identify people.

16 Sir, at the end of this, I will ask you whether or

17 not at any point you yourself are shown in the video,

18 but please I ask, because this is in open session, that

19 you not -- if I am asking you any questions, you not

20 identify when you are present and when you are not. Do

21 you understand? I am not sure I explained that very

22 well. In other words, sir, what I am saying is during

23 the session I may ask you some questions, I may stop the

24 tape and ask you some questions. Please do not state

25 whether or not you are on the video, since the video is

Page 6740

1 not being played in closed session. Do you understand?

2 Do not say whether or not you are present, whether or

3 not you can be seen on the video.

4 A. Yes.

5 MS. McHENRY: Did I understand your Honours that Mr. McLeod

6 may be permitted in the video room to help things --

7 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Yes, I think he can.

8 MS. McHENRY: Thank you, sir. I would ask that M1D be

9 played.

10 (Videotape played)

11 MS. McHENRY: May we stop for a minute please?

12 (Videotape stopped)

13 MS. McHENRY: I thought the sound was going to be played

14 without the translation section, because I will be

15 asking this witness to identify certain voices, so

16 I would ask that the sound be played but just the

17 translation not work. First of all --

18 (Videotape played)

19 MS. McHENRY: If you could stop for one minute, please?

20 (Videotape stopped)

21 MS. McHENRY: Sir, do you recognise what this is? Not this

22 person, but do you recognise everything that has been

23 shown?

24 A. Yes, I do recognise it.

25 Q. What is it, sir?

Page 6741

1 A. This is a Serb prisoner whose name was Zara Mrkajic.

2 Q. Even before this, sir, when there were parts being

3 shown, do you know where this is taking place, this

4 video and what is happening? Let me just start off: do

5 you know where this video is being taken? Is it in

6 Celebici camp or somewhere outside of Celebici camp?

7 A. It was in the Celebici camp, in the office there was a

8 party.

9 Q. Were you present at this party, sir?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Did you in fact tape some of this party?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Who else taped this party?

14 A. I cannot remember exactly who.

15 Q. Whose video camera was it?

16 A. The video camera belonged to Zdravko Mucic.

17 MS. McHENRY: I would like to ask the video section people

18 to go to the first section marked and I will ask the

19 witness if he recognises the voice, if you would play

20 that part?

21 (Videotape played)

22 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: I think that is sufficient time to

23 identify it.

24 MS. McHENRY: If you would please stop?

25 (Videotape stopped)

Page 6742

1 MS. McHENRY: Your Honour, I am in the difficult position

2 because I want the witness to identify a particular

3 voice saying a particular thing, but since I do not

4 speak Serbo-Croatian, I am not exactly sure when that

5 section has been said. I believe the video people may

6 know and if the video people -- the technician people

7 could inform me, even by a wave, whether or not the

8 section that I had asked be played, has that already

9 been heard, played?

10 Sir, did you hear someone say something about

11 things being stolen and prisoners coming out of jail

12 paying for being --

13 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: There is no translation here. How are

14 you going into the --

15 MS. McHENRY: I believe that my question -- if the witness

16 has heard it. It is not necessary -- the witness can

17 say whether or not he heard that section and if so who

18 said it, if he recognises the voice, without

19 your Honours having to hear the translation, if

20 I understand the correct procedure. Let me see if this

21 works.

22 Sir, did you hear someone saying something about

23 the prisoners paying to come out of jail?

24 A. There were stories in town that money was being taken,

25 that some people were paying for these --

Page 6743

1 Q. Sir, let me just ask you, I am not asking you about

2 stories in town, I am asking whether or not in this

3 video you heard anyone say "Zara, how much did those

4 prisoners that came out of jail pay for?" Did you hear

5 that on the video?

6 A. On the recording that you showed? No. You could just

7 hear two voices saying something like "Merhaba Hussein

8 and Fujihad".

9 Q. I would just ask that that section I have indicated to

10 the video people, if that section could be played again,

11 with the sound, so the witness can hear the sound.

12 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: What is the relevance of that, what was

13 said in a party by somebody who might have been drunk?

14 JUDGE JAN: It might have been a joke.

15 MS. McHENRY: Your Honour, I believe those things may go to

16 the weight rather than the admissibility.

17 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Going to weight. I can see the

18 substance.

19 JUDGE JAN: It is some bantering, some light talk. How

20 would that help?

21 MS. McHENRY: Your Honour, I believe certainly the

22 Prosecution is entitled to present this evidence, and if

23 your Honours decide that it is banter and it is not

24 entitled to evidentiary weight or even if the

25 circumstances indicate that it is not reliable, that is

Page 6744

1 certainly your decision, but I certainly think the

2 Prosecution is permitted to have this witness identify

3 things said by persons, including this accused --

4 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Nobody stops the Prosecution bringing

5 whatever evidence it likes. Let him do it a little bit

6 more --

7 JUDGE JAN: None of your witnesses have said this, that they

8 paid to come out of prison, if you are trying to put

9 questions to that effect. Nobody has said this, that

10 they paid to get out.

11 MS. McHENRY: Let me then move forward to the next excerpt

12 I am asking. I would ask that the video people fast

13 forward to the next section that had been marked and,

14 sir -- I do not want to -- I will be asking you about if

15 you hear a sentence that has something to do with the --

16 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honour, let me interrupt. I thought the

17 way we had started this was that there were going to be

18 no translations of what was on the tape and that the

19 witness was just looking at them for the purposes of

20 identifying "yes, I recognise that scene. It was at

21 Celebici at the time indicated", and now Ms. McHenry is

22 giving us the translations. That gets in to the content

23 of the tapes and that is what is not yet admissible.

24 JUDGE JAN: There has been evidence that there was a

25 birthday party held for Mr. Pavo, some witnesses have

Page 6745

1 said that.

2 MR. ACKERMAN: That is true.

3 JUDGE JAN: This is the scene of that party.

4 MR. ACKERMAN: That is true, your Honour, but the context of

5 what was said at that party gets into the translations

6 and is putting evidence before this Tribunal when we

7 have not yet decided whether or not the content of these

8 tapes can be admitted. I thought what we were doing

9 here was just having this witness saying whether or not

10 he can identify these segments for the purpose of

11 identification only.

12 MS. McHENRY: If I may respond briefly, your Honour? It is

13 not the case that this Prosecution is now getting the

14 statements made into evidence for the truth of their

15 contents. What the Prosecution is now trying to do is

16 have the witness identify the voices of persons who said

17 particular things, because otherwise when this witness

18 goes back and the tapes are -- certainly, your Honour,

19 the fact that someone said something, at least now all

20 we are doing is having the witness identify the voice.

21 Had it been the case that the translation was being

22 given, it would not be me asking this, but there are a

23 number of important -- there are a number of statements

24 that the Prosecution wishes to get into evidence and, of

25 course, it is important who said those statements --

Page 6746

1 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: No, Ms. McHenry, we have accepted that

2 all he was doing is to identify his participation in the

3 tapes. We have also agreed that there will be no

4 translations of any portions of the tapes, so I do not

5 see how there can be a correlation between what you

6 would do and there being no translation, because even if

7 he identifies it and it was not translated, it is part

8 of the record. All he will do is identify this scene

9 and that is all, without translation.

10 MS. McHENRY: But certainly, your Honour, at the end, if

11 these tapes are admitted into evidence --

12 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: When admitted.

13 MS. McHENRY: That is correct, your Honour, and especially

14 given that this is not before a jury, rather than have

15 this witness come back to identify voices, we would ask

16 that he be permitted to identify voices now and that the

17 only reason this evidence is being introduced at the

18 present time is for identification purposes, and if

19 your Honours later on determine that the evidence is not

20 admissible then you can disregard it, but the fact that

21 this witness can identify voices about who said certain

22 things is extremely relevant, and the Prosecution is --

23 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: What is surprising to me, not only you,

24 almost every counsel when explanation is made, you

25 ignore the explanation and carry on with the argument.

Page 6747

1 You have agreed all he needs to do is to identify the

2 scene, and there should be no translation accompanying

3 it, so what use will it make if he goes about telling us

4 what was involved in it while the translation will not

5 be part of the record, at least for now.

6 MS. McHENRY: The translation will not be part of the

7 record, but the fact that the witness has identified --

8 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: A particular scene.

9 MS. McHENRY: A particular scene and a particular person as

10 having said certain things.

11 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Said what?

12 MS. McHENRY: For instance --

13 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: It is not translated.

14 MS. McHENRY: But the witness can understand it, so the

15 witness does not need translation.

16 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: That is his affair, but the court

17 itself does not have his translation and what was said

18 was not brought to the notice of the court. How does it

19 help?

20 MS. McHENRY: It helps if this evidence is later on

21 admitted into evidence.

22 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: What is his evidence?

23 MS. McHENRY: His evidence would be that certain people

24 said things.

25 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: He cannot say that.

Page 6748

1 JUDGE JAN: He has already given an explanation. There were

2 some rumours in the town about this allegation. If

3 somebody raises it at the party, how would that be a

4 proof that he has not taken money? He has already said

5 that, that there were some rumours. It is a party-type

6 thing to happen.

7 MS. McHENRY: My questions have nothing to do with those

8 statements. I have moved on to entirely other

9 statements.

10 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Even what you are suggesting about his

11 hearing what they have said, he is not even expected to

12 give it as evidence of what he said. It is not entitled

13 to, because you have agreed the translation should not

14 be made. There is no way he can bring that into

15 evidence that he has --

16 JUDGE JAN: And there was drinking at the party. Some

17 people get their tongues loosened. How would that help

18 you? I just do not know.

19 MS. McHENRY: If I may make a proffer, I will give an

20 example. I certainly do not want to improperly give a

21 proffer, but I can give a proffer which I believe is

22 very relevant and the fact that people sometimes --

23 alcohol loosens their tongue does not mean that what

24 they say is entitled to no evidentiary weight whatsoever

25 and I think these are all questions that go to weight.

Page 6749

1 All the Prosecution is trying to do now is have voice

2 identification, but since there are many people speaking

3 during this party, in some way I have to direct the

4 witness's attention to a particular sentence that was

5 said and have him identify that sentence.

6 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: He is not the source of the translation

7 for this Tribunal, for this Trial Chamber, not the

8 witness. Our translation is from the booths and if they

9 are not to translate this he cannot tell us what it

10 involves.

11 MS. McHENRY: He cannot tell us what it says in English,

12 your Honour --

13 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: We do not expect him to.

14 MS. McHENRY: Given that his native language is

15 Serbo-Croatian --

16 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: We are not expecting a translation of

17 that language for the purpose. All he can identify is

18 what has been said and that is sufficient for him

19 identifying the persons in that tape. That is all.

20 MS. McHENRY: That is exactly what I am trying to do, your

21 Honour. I am trying to get him to identify the persons

22 in the tape who said a particular thing.

23 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Not said, because that is not part --

24 JUDGE JAN: In any case that sentence has not yet come.

25 MS. McHENRY: That is correct. The sentence I am about to

Page 6750

1 ask him --

2 JUDGE JAN: Has not yet come.

3 MS. McHENRY: But if I am permitted to play the tape and

4 ask him if he can identify the voice, I think this

5 witness is entitled to identify the voice.

6 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: But it will not be part of the

7 evidence, that is what I am telling you.

8 MS. McHENRY: I understand that the translation will not be

9 part of the evidence, the actual statement will not be

10 part of the evidence at this moment.

11 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Yes.

12 MS. McHENRY: I understand that, your Honour. If I can

13 have the next section played for the witness.

14 MR. OLUJIC: Your Honours, I apologise for intervening. My

15 client cannot see the witness so could the screen be

16 moved over a little bit without exposing the witness but

17 so that my client can see him? Thank you.

18 MS. McHENRY: I would like, and maybe this will help

19 matters, if you need a Serbo-Croatian translator we can

20 potentially get one. I would like the portion that is

21 marked as occurring at 11.02 to be played and if only

22 those words could be played I think it would assist the

23 matter.

24 (Videotape played)

25 (Videotape stopped)

Page 6751

1 MS. McHENRY: Sir, did you hear a sentence that began "when

2 will he come?"

3 A. I did.

4 Q. Did you recognise the voice of the person who said that?

5 A. I did.

6 Q. Whose voice is it?

7 A. It is the voice of Zdravko Mucic.

8 MS. McHENRY: Now I would just ask the video section to

9 play the rest of the tape in fast forward. There is no

10 need for sound now. We will just have the witness be

11 able to identify it.

12 (Videotape played)

13 MS. McHENRY: I think that should be fine. I just ask that

14 this be stopped now.

15 (Videotape stopped)

16 MS. McHENRY: Sir, was the rest of what you saw also this

17 same party?

18 A. Yes, it was the same party.

19 MS. McHENRY: Thank you, that is all I wish to show from

20 that tape. I would now ask -- I do not know if the

21 excerpts have been prepared or we should just use the

22 original and fast forward? I would ask that M1B be

23 shown. I would particularly ask, for the video section,

24 that the section beginning on page 10 of the transcript

25 be shown to the witness. I believe the time is 1343.

Page 6752

1 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: You are satisfied with the portions he

2 identified for the purposes of identification?

3 MS. McHENRY: Yes, your Honour. As I understand the

4 court's ruling, I think that is all that can be done

5 with M1D, and now I ask that M1B, the section beginning

6 on page 10 of the transcript, be shown to the witness.

7 (Videotape played)

8 MS. McHENRY: If we could fast forward to the first part

9 where there is the voice of the person in the car?

10 Could we please interrupt now?

11 (Videotape stopped)

12 MS. McHENRY: Sir, first of all do you recognise where this

13 is being filmed?

14 A. It was in front of the entrance to the Celebici prison.

15 Q. Sir, did you recognise the male voice that was heard on

16 the tape?

17 A. Yes, it is the voice of Zdravko Mucic.

18 MS. McHENRY: Your Honours, the tape continues but unless

19 the Defence is going to suggest that somehow there is

20 forgery in the video or something like that, rather than

21 have him watch the entire section and have him identify

22 the voice each time it is said, I would think that would

23 be sufficient, and I assume the Defence will notify me

24 if that is not acceptable, in which case I would ask

25 that we go to the section on page 13.

Page 6753

1 (Videotape played)

2 MS. McHENRY: If we may stop for a minute?

3 (Videotape stopped)

4 MS. McHENRY: Sir, first of all do you recognise where this

5 is being filmed?

6 A. It was filmed in the other prison which was in the

7 centre of town at Musala, in front of the building

8 itself.

9 Q. Were you present when this was being filmed?

10 A. Yes, I was.

11 Q. Who was the person who is shown on the tape?

12 A. It was a Serbian prisoner. I do not remember his name.

13 Q. What kind of mental condition was this prisoner in?

14 MR. GREAVES: That is an extraordinary question. How can he

15 give evidence about the mental condition of a prisoner?

16 MS. McHENRY: Let me put it another way. Can you describe

17 what you know about this prisoner, in particular whether

18 or not he had any difficulties that you are aware of?

19 A. He had some mental problems.

20 Q. Do you know whether or not this person was -- can you

21 describe a little more what you mean by mental problems?

22 A. His very behaviour did not appear to be quite normal.

23 He has some mental difficulties obviously.

24 Q. Do you know whether or not this prisoner was mentally

25 retarded?

Page 6754

1 MR. GREAVES: Your Honour, this man is not a psychiatrist or

2 a psychologist. How on earth can he answer that

3 question?

4 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: What he has said is sufficient for your

5 purposes.

6 MS. McHENRY: Fine, your Honour. I will move on.

7 Sir, did you recognise any voices on the tape

8 besides that of the prisoner?

9 A. I heard the voice of Zdravko Mucic and another guard,

10 I do not know who he was.

11 MS. McHENRY: Thank you. Again, your Honours, for purposes

12 of time and unless the Defence informs me that they

13 object, rather than at the present time showing this

14 witness the entire event which lasted a significant

15 length of time, I would like to move forward. It is

16 obvious on the video where it stops and starts. I would

17 like to move forward to page 24, at 1759 and have that

18 shown to the witness.

19 (Pause).

20 (Videotape played)

21 MS. McHENRY: If we could stop for one minute?

22 (Videotape stopped)

23 MS. McHENRY: Sir, do you recognise where this is being

24 filmed?

25 A. It was filmed in the Celebici prison.

Page 6755

1 Q. Did you recognise the voice, the voice that yelled out

2 "Sok", and if so whose voice is it?

3 A. Yes, it was the voice of Zdravko Mucic.

4 MS. McHENRY: Again, your Honours, rather than have this

5 witness go through, in the absence of an objection by

6 the Defence, I will just go to the next section, which

7 is on page 28.

8 (Videotape played)

9 MS. McHENRY: If we may stop now?

10 (Videotape stopped)

11 MS. McHENRY: Sir, do you recognise where this is being

12 filmed?

13 A. In the Celebici prison, the place where the guards were,

14 the room where they were.

15 Q. Did you recognise anyone's voice on that tape?

16 A. Again, the same voice, the voice of Zdravko Mucic and

17 guards whose name I cannot remember.

18 Q. Sir, do you recognise the person who is being shown on

19 this video?

20 A. It is the same person taped in the Musala prison, the

21 same Serb prisoner.

22 Q. Sir, do you remember -- were you present on this

23 occasion? Was it another party?

24 A. Yes, I think -- yes, yes, I was there. It was

25 another --

Page 6756

1 Q. Was it another party, sir?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. What happened to the prisoner during this party?

4 A. They put women's clothes on to him and they made jokes

5 with him, they laughed at him.

6 Q. Again, rather than have the witness go through the

7 entire sequence and have him just confirm that it is the

8 same party and the same voice. In the absence of an

9 objection by the Defence, I will move forward to the

10 next section, which is on page 34.

11 (Videotape played)

12 MS. McHENRY: If we could fast forward now, but still have

13 it be shown on the tape? If we could stop, please.

14 (Videotape stopped)

15 MS. McHENRY: Sir, do you recognise where this is being

16 filmed?

17 A. In the Celebici prison.

18 Q. Do you recognise whose voice that was?

19 A. It is Zdravko Mucic and Zeljko Mustafic's voices.

20 Q. If we could now please go to 35?

21 (Videotape played)

22 MS. McHENRY: If you could stop?

23 (Videotape stopped)

24 MS. McHENRY: Sir, do you recognise what is being shown

25 here?

Page 6757

1 A. It is the big hangar where Serb prisoners were held.

2 Q. Did you see some buildings to the right, and can you

3 tell us what they were, sort of on a small hillside?

4 A. It was a dugout where Zenga sometimes slept and where he

5 spent most of his time and it was dug for him by the

6 Serb prisoners, and there was another dugout where the

7 big machinegun was.

8 Q. Sir, could you recognise who it was who was standing

9 right outside the hangar that we saw?

10 A. It was Zara Mrkajic.

11 Q. Was he any kind of special prisoner?

12 A. No, he was not really a special prisoner of any kind,

13 because he was quite well known before the war, and they

14 appointed him to be in charge of order in the hangar

15 where the Serb prisoners were.

16 Q. Did he have the same freedom of movement as the other

17 prisoners, or did he have more?

18 A. He had more freedom.

19 Q. If we could just continue with this a little bit?

20 (Videotape played)

21 MS. McHENRY: If we could go forward, I am looking for the

22 section where someone says "excellent". If they could

23 go forward to that section. If we could stop, sir?

24 (Videotape stopped)

25 MS. McHENRY: Sir, did you recognise whose voice that was?

Page 6758

1 A. Yes, it was the voice of Zdravko Mucic.

2 Q. If we could go forward now to page 36, the part that is

3 right above section 1908.

4 (Videotape played)

5 MS. McHENRY: If we could stop for a minute?

6 (Videotape stopped)

7 MS. McHENRY: Sir, do you recognise who that person was?

8 A. It was Hazim Delic.

9 Q. Sir, it is shown on the tape that Mr. Delic is wearing a

10 white belt. Did everyone in the prison wear a white

11 belt?

12 A. No, he was the only one who had a white belt, maybe at

13 the very beginning when the prison was first

14 established, some policemen had it, but later on it was

15 only him who had it.

16 Q. Whose voices did you recognise, sir?

17 A. Hazim Delic.

18 Q. Could you tell whose was the other voice on the tape

19 talking with Mr. Delic?

20 A. It was Zdravko Mucic.

21 Q. May we please go forward with the tape until we get

22 to -- fast forward so you can see it here, please?

23 (Videotape played)

24 MS. McHENRY: Stop, please. If we could back up a little

25 bit? Sir, I am going to ask you if you can recognise

Page 6759

1 who the two people shown are, the man on the ground and

2 the person above him. Sir, can you recognise either of

3 those two people?

4 A. It was Hazim Delic and a Serb prisoner whose name I do

5 not know, but he was a butcher before the war. He is

6 forced to do push-ups here.

7 MS. McHENRY: That is fine. Again with the same

8 understanding with Defence -- sir, do you recognise who

9 it was who was driving the car?

10 A. It was Zdravko Mucic's daughter.

11 MS. McHENRY: Thank you. If we could now go forward to

12 page 37?

13 (Videotape stopped)

14 MS. McHENRY: To the bottom of page 37 and just briefly

15 show that, please?

16 (Videotape played)

17 MS. McHENRY: If we could stop, please?

18 (Videotape stopped)

19 MS. McHENRY: Sir, do you recognise where this is?

20 A. It was the first party that was held in the office in

21 Celebici.

22 Q. When you say the first party, do you mean the first

23 party that you saw today or do you mean the first party

24 that was ever held in the camp?

25 A. Ever held in the camp.

Page 6760

1 Q. Were you present then?

2 A. Yes, I was. I think I was.

3 MS. McHENRY: May we just then with the same understanding

4 rather than have him show all the rest of the tape

5 showing this same party we will move forward, that is

6 all for that tape. We are almost finished and if

7 I could now just ask to see a couple of parts of M1C,

8 starting on page 5 of the transcript? (Pause).

9 (Videotape played)

10 MS. McHENRY: If you could stop there?

11 (Videotape stopped)

12 MS. McHENRY: Sir, do you recognise whose voice it was who

13 just spoke?

14 A. Yes, it is the voice of Zdravko Mucic.

15 Q. Can we go forward and then briefly show the next portion

16 on the bottom of page 5 and the two first portions on

17 page 6 and that will be the end.

18 (Videotape played)

19 MS. McHENRY: If we could stop, please.

20 (Videotape stopped)

21 MS. McHENRY: Sir, do you recognise any of the people being

22 shown in this video and do you recognise any of the

23 voices?

24 A. I recognise Zdravko Mucic and Pero Serbia. I do not

25 really know, I was not really -- the recording was not

Page 6761

1 very good and the others I cannot recognise.

2 Q. Did you recognise the voice of anyone talking about

3 loading material?

4 A. No, I did not.

5 Q. Did you hear any of that on the tape? Did you hear

6 anyone talking about loading material?

7 A. No, I am not certain. If we could see the tape again?

8 MS. McHENRY: I would ask the technical people to first

9 show the part of the transcript that is on the very

10 bottom of page 5 which starts at 1217, then stop and

11 next I will ask them to show this single sentence on the

12 top of page 6 at 1218. If the volume could be

13 increased?

14 (Videotape played)

15 (Videotape stopped)

16 MS. McHENRY: Sir, did you hear anyone talking about first

17 of all loading material?

18 A. I heard that they were saying something about grenades.

19 Q. Could you hear whose voice it was talking about that?

20 A. It was the voice of Zdravko Mucic.

21 Q. If we could next, unless it has already been shown --

22 let me ask you. Sir, did you hear anything about

23 appearances on TV?

24 A. I do not understand. What appearances?

25 MS. McHENRY: If I could just ask the technical people to

Page 6762

1 show just the sentence that is on the top of page 6 at

2 1218.

3 (Videotape played)

4 (Videotape stopped)

5 MS. McHENRY: Sir, did you hear anyone saying anything

6 about TV?

7 A. Yes, Zdravko Mucic told someone that he should be shown

8 on TV, but I cannot really link what it was about and

9 what he was talking about.

10 MS. McHENRY: Okay. With much thanks to the video

11 assistance people, the Prosecution is finished and, in

12 fact, the Prosecution is finished with its

13 examination-in-chief. Thank you, your Honours.

14 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: I hope you will be able to make the

15 excerpts available.

16 MS. McHENRY: Yes, your Honour. We will make sure that

17 that is available.

18 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: We should be actually having a break at

19 4.00, but I do not think it is necessary to start any

20 cross-examination now. We will come back at 4.30 to

21 start cross-examination.

22 (3.55 pm)

23 (A short break)

24 (4.30 pm)

25 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: How does the cross-examination go?

Page 6763

1 MR. O'SULLIVAN: First counsel for Mr. Delic, second counsel

2 for Mr. Delalic, third counsel for Mr. Mucic,

3 fourth counsel for Mr. Landzo.

4 MR. MORAN: May it please the court?

5 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Yes, you may proceed.

6 Cross-examined by MR. MORAN

7 Q. Thank you, your Honour. Good afternoon, sir.

8 A. Good afternoon.

9 Q. My name is Tom Moran and I am going to be asking you

10 some questions, some will be about what you testified

11 about on direct and some that may be out of the

12 statements that you have given earlier, and some that

13 may have nothing to do with any of that. I would like

14 to ask you to see if we can make a deal with a couple of

15 things. One, will you listen to my questions and if you

16 do not understand them for some reason stop me and

17 I will repeat it or rephrase it or do whatever it takes

18 to make sure that you understand it; could you do that

19 for me?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Second, will you just answer the question that I ask.

22 Some of them they just call for a yes or no answer. If

23 it just calls for a yes or no, can you just answer yes

24 or no?

25 A. I understand.

Page 6764

1 Q. Okay, that is fine. One other thing, you have been

2 nodding your head a little bit and if you look in front

3 of you, you will see a lady over there in front of

4 Judge Jan and another lady over behind Ms. McHenry.

5 Those people are court reporters and they have to write

6 down every word we say. They cannot write down a nod.

7 If you would answer in words rather than a nod, it would

8 make it much easier for them. Can you do that for me,

9 sir?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Okay, thank you. Sir, if you look in front of you, on

12 your left by the microphone there is a little button

13 that says "push to talk" or some such thing. There we

14 go, okay. The usher got it.

15 Your Honour, while we are on ground rules for this

16 witness, can we go into closed session for a second?

17 I am about to say something that may reveal his current

18 residence.

19 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Let us go into private session for

20 that.

21 MR. MORAN: Yes, your Honour. It will be just be a few

22 seconds.

23 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Advise the technicians so that we go

24 into private session.

25 (In closed session)

Page 6765

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Page 6766

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7 [redacted]

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9 [redacted]

10 [redacted]

11 [redacted]

12 [redacted]

13 [redacted]

14 [redacted]

15 [redacted]

16 [redacted]

17 (In open session)

18 MR. MORAN: Thank you, your Honour. Sir, we are now back

19 into open session and everything we say will be able to

20 be heard by the audience and things like that.

21 Sir, who have you talked to about your testimony

22 here today?

23 A. I do not understand the question.

24 Q. Okay, sir. Have you talked to anyone about what you

25 were going to testify about today? For instance,

Page 6767

1 Ms. McHenry, the lady that was asking you those

2 questions all this morning, did you talk to her about

3 what you were going to testify about?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. When was that, sir?

6 A. On Sunday and Monday.

7 Q. Did you talk to her about it today during any of the

8 breaks?

9 A. No, only this morning when she told me what my rights

10 were in terms of protection, as decided by the court.

11 Q. Okay. Have you talked to any investigators from the

12 Office of the Prosecutor; for instance, back on

13 28th April, you talked to a man named Dennis Milner. Do

14 you remember doing that?

15 A. Yes, I remember.

16 Q. You talked to someone from your national police back in

17 March of this year, 24th March; do you remember that

18 interview?

19 A. Yes, I do.

20 Q. Have you talked to anyone else about your testimony

21 here?

22 A. No, I did not.

23 Q. Sir, I would like to focus for a second on your national

24 police and your interview with them. How did they first

25 get in touch with you? Did they just show up on your

Page 6768

1 front door?

2 A. No, they contacted my brother. They did not have my

3 address, so they found me through my brother.

4 Q. And then they came out to visit you and said they wanted

5 to interview you; is that right?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. When they interviewed you they told you that you were

8 suspected, or at least had been accused of crimes in

9 front of this Tribunal. It was a murder, was it not

10 that somebody suspected you of?

11 MS. McHENRY: Just so the record reflects, this witness has

12 not been accused by this Tribunal. I just want the

13 record to be clear.

14 MR. MORAN: Do you remember when those national police agents

15 came out and -- invited you down to their office? They

16 told you that --

17 A. Yes, I remember.

18 Q. They told you that someone had accused you of committing

19 a murder; do you remember that?

20 A. Yes, that was at the second interview. Yes,

21 I apologise, at the first and the second.

22 Q. You had two interviews with your national police?

23 [redacted]

24 [redacted]

25 [redacted]

Page 6769

1 MS. McHENRY: May we go into private session for one

2 minute, please?

3 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Let us go into private session.

4 (In closed session)

5 [redacted]

6 [redacted]

7 [redacted]

8 [redacted]

9 [redacted]

10 [redacted]

11 [redacted]

12 [redacted]

13 [redacted]

14 (In open session)

15 MR. MORAN: Sir, without revealing where you live, what

16 continent or country, you are not a citizen of the

17 country you are living in right now, are you?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. You are a citizen of that country?

20 A. I am.

21 Q. Okay. Fine. Sir, let us talk a little bit about your

22 military background. I understand that you served your

23 national service in the JNA as an artillery man; is that

24 right?

25 A. Yes, that is correct.

Page 6770

1 Q. Then at some time in either March or February of 1992,

2 you joined the military police of the HVO; is that

3 right, sir?

4 A. Yes, it is right.

5 Q. You served as a military policeman for about three

6 months and then you were transferred to the Celebici

7 camp; is that right?

8 A. It is, something like that.

9 Q. You picked the military police and the HVO so that you

10 would not have to go out in the field as an infantryman;

11 is that not right, sir?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. That is because it was just an easier life to be a

14 military policeman than it was to be an infantryman; you

15 did not have to go out in the field and things like

16 that. That is pretty fair, is it not, sir?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. The HVO never provided you with any training as a

19 military policeman, did they?

20 A. No, they did not.

21 Q. They just gave you a weapon and said "be a military

22 policeman", right?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. By the way, what kind of weapon did you have?

25 A. I had an automatic rifle.

Page 6771

1 Q. It was one with a wooden stock all the way from the

2 front to the back?

3 A. No, not from one end to the other.

4 Q. Okay, but it had a wooden piece that you put against

5 your shoulder, the stock was all wood; is that right?

6 A. Yes, that is right.

7 Q. Okay. Sir, let us focus on the early days, the first

8 days in the camp, early on. As I recall your testimony

9 this morning, your duties were not as a driver at that

10 point, were they?

11 A. No, they were not.

12 Q. It was more of a guard's position, was it not?

13 A. I took the prisoners for their interrogations. When

14 they had finished, I would be on duty by the telephone.

15 Q. You mentioned Hazim Delic at that point in time had been

16 injured and was not deputy commander. Do you remember

17 testifying about that?

18 A. I do not know whether he was wounded or not, I know he

19 was carrying a crutch.

20 Q. And he had a cast on one leg, did he not, in late May

21 and June 1992?

22 A. When he first arrived, he had a cast. Later he removed

23 it.

24 Q. But he still carried a crutch for quite a while, right?

25 A. Not so long.

Page 6772

1 Q. While he was in the cast and carrying the crutch, what

2 were his duties in the camp, do you recall? Let me see

3 if I can help you on that. Do you recall whether he

4 worked on the front gate doing things like checking

5 vehicles in and out, that type of thing?

6 A. I cannot remember whether he checked the vehicles coming

7 in and out.

8 Q. But you recall whether his job was just basically to man

9 the front gate?

10 A. No, I do not recall.

11 Q. Okay, that is fine, sir. By the way, before you became

12 the driver in the camp, the driver was a man named Rale,

13 was it not?

14 A. His name is Rale Dzajic -- Dzajic.

15 Q. But he was known as Rale; is that right?

16 A. No, Rala, they called him.

17 Q. Sir, do you know a man named, I believe it is his

18 nickname, the English translation is "Black" but his

19 nickname was in Bosnia something like Crni C-R-N-I do

20 you know that man, sir?

21 A. Yes, sir.

22 Q. Do you know a person named Mira, Mrjana Mrkajic?

23 A. Miro Mrkajic?

24 Q. A woman.

25 A. Yes, I remember her.

Page 6773

1 Q. Do you remember her being confined in the camp by you?

2 A. No, she was never detained in the camp.

3 Q. So she never was held in the building on that model in

4 front of you with the G on it?

5 A. Please repeat the question?

6 Q. If you stand up or look in front of you you will see a

7 model of the camp. There is a building with a G on it.

8 MS. McHENRY: I do not think with the witness that he can

9 see easily. It may be if the Defence counsel refers to

10 reception building, I think the witness may know it, if

11 I have it right.

12 MR. MORAN: You do not have it right.

13 MS. McHENRY: If counsel could point to him and he could

14 clarify?

15 MR. MORAN: I think Mr. Hocking is trying to -- or we can

16 close the windows.

17 Sir, while they are trying to do this, see if we

18 can get it on television, Mira: did you ever bring her

19 into the camp?

20 A. Yes, on one occasion, because her brother was imprisoned

21 there, she came to see him, but she was never detained

22 there.

23 Q. Okay. Was she a retarded person, sir?

24 A. She was a mentally retarded person.

25 Q. Did you take her to any of the hangars in that camp,

Page 6774

1 sir?

2 A. No.

3 Q. Do you know a man named Alibasic?

4 A. I cannot remember. There were quite a number of people

5 with that surname, but I am not sure.

6 Q. First name, I will spell it for you, D-Z-E-V-A-D.

7 A. Perhaps I know him, but I cannot remember exactly.

8 Q. How about a man named Fikret Macic, M-A-C-I-C, do you

9 know him? He was one of the other guards in the camp

10 with you, both of them were. Does that help you put

11 them in context?

12 A. Fikret Macic or Masic.

13 Q. Masic I believe is the pronunciation. Believe me, my

14 Bosnian is not very good.

15 A. I think I knew him.

16 MS. McHENRY: Excuse me for interrupting, sir.

17 Your Honours, the Prosecution would ask that

18 your Honours instruct Mr. Mucic to not be making any kind

19 of head signals or anything else to the witness.

20 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: I am not sure, Mr. Mucic, you are

21 showing enough responsibility. This is the second time

22 you have been accused of behaving in an improper way.

23 I think you had better appreciate the trial under which

24 you are -- in this Tribunal and not continue to be

25 ridiculous to yourself. I do not think I will tolerate

Page 6775

1 any such action any longer. One has ignored the first

2 two offences and that should be an end of it. I hope

3 his counsel is aware of this and will be able to speak

4 to him. There is a limit to imprudence in trials of

5 this nature.

6 MR. OLUJIC: Your Honours, with your permission, in this

7 courtroom I cannot follow, nor is it my duty to take

8 care of the order. My client, if he did something

9 improper, I was unable to see him. I am not even sure

10 whether that corresponds to the truth, what my learned

11 colleague said, because I am facing my client with my

12 back, so I cannot see him. The only way is to look at

13 the screen or to turn around. May I please ask

14 your Honours, I am all for order in the courtroom, there

15 is no dilemma in that respect, but could I please be

16 left out of it.

17 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: In the legal profession, there is

18 something like a mutual trust and confidence between

19 colleagues, and it is surprising to me for you even to

20 question the integrity of a fellow counsel who makes a

21 proper complaint about what has happened. I think the

22 attitude is quite a different thing somewhere else.

23 I am meeting very different ethics in practice here.

24 MR. MORAN: May I proceed, your Honour?

25 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Yes, you can proceed.

Page 6776

1 MR. MORAN: Thank you very much. Sir, do you remember an

2 incident when you and Mr. Alibasic and Mr. Masic passed a

3 helmet through either the tunnel, which I believe you

4 called number 11, and which everyone else has called

5 number 9 and that little warehouse behind the

6 administration building to collect valuables from the

7 prisoners; do you remember that incident?

8 A. Yes, that is correct.

9 Q. Do you remember a few days later all of the guards at

10 the camp were lined up and were asked to admit who had

11 done it; do you remember that?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. And the three of you admitted that you had done it and

14 were ordered to give back all of the property you had

15 taken, except for the property that you had sold to pay

16 for Mr. Alibasic's birthday party; do you remember that?

17 A. I do not understand Mr. Alibasic's party.

18 Q. What I have been told is that the three of you had sold

19 some of the property to pay for a party; is that

20 correct, is that what had occurred, sir?

21 A. No, that is not correct.

22 Q. Okay.

23 A. Why would I be paying for somebody's party? There is no

24 reason for that.

25 Q. Yes, sir. When you passed the helmet through these

Page 6777

1 places where the prisoners were collecting property,

2 what did you do with that property after you collected

3 it all?

4 A. It was ordered that it should all be returned, most of

5 it, because the rule of the house was that it had to be

6 returned and most of it was returned.

7 Q. What happened to the part that was not returned, sir?

8 A. It was a small amount, not too great, perhaps to buy

9 cigarettes or something like that.

10 MS. McHENRY: If I may just interrupt to ask if the

11 interpreters can clarify whether or not there was part

12 of the witness's answer that was not interpreted into

13 English.

14 THE INTERPRETER: The witness said it was ordered by

15 Zdravko Mucic that goods be returned, correct.

16 MS. McHENRY: Thank you.

17 MR. MORAN: Sir, you said some of the goods were not returned

18 and you mentioned some of the things that were not

19 returned. What happened to that property? Did it just

20 disappear or did you use it or sell it or give it away?

21 A. It was an insignificant amount of property. It was old

22 watches mainly, a few golden rings perhaps, a very

23 insignificant amount.

24 Q. Sir, I understand it was it was an insignificant amount

25 of property. What happened to it? Did it just

Page 6778

1 disappear or did -- what did you do with it, sir?

2 A. As I have already said, most of it was returned, since

3 the commander ordered, and what little was left, it was

4 mainly to buy cigarettes.

5 Q. Okay, so you took property from these prisoners and that

6 property that you did not return you sold to buy

7 cigarettes; is that what you are telling these judges?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Okay, fine. A man nicknamed Habu, H-A-B-U; do you know

10 him?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Who is he?

13 A. One of the guards.

14 Q. How about a woman named Dusanka Avkamovic; do you know

15 her?

16 A. I do not know her.

17 Q. Maybe I can help you sir. Would that be the woman who

18 came to the camp in August 1992 and accused you and Habu

19 of going into her house and taking her television set?

20 A. No, that is not true.

21 Q. Okay. That is fine. Do you remember back in August or

22 September 1992 when some investigators from the Ministry

23 of the Interior came by the camp investigating theft of

24 some appliances from Serbian houses; do you remember

25 that, like freezers, deep freezers, washing machines,

Page 6779

1 things like that?

2 A. No, I do not remember.

3 Q. Okay, that is fine. Georgi S-I-P-O-V-A-C, Sipovac, do

4 you know him? He used to be a police officer in

5 Konjic. He was a prisoner in the camp; do you remember

6 him?

7 A. Perhaps I could remember him if you had a photograph of

8 him to show me.

9 Q. How about -- do you remember an incident when you

10 brought a prisoner into the day room where the guards

11 had their recreation area, and gave that person some

12 hand lotion? Do you recall that incident, sir?

13 A. I am not getting any translation. No.

14 Q. You do not recall that incident, sir?

15 A. No, I do not remember.

16 Q. Okay. Sir, I do not want to try and fool you with

17 anything, so I will just come right out and say this.

18 You have testified that you took a lot of these

19 prisoners over to be interrogated by the MUP; do you

20 remember that?

21 A. Yes, that is correct.

22 Q. When you did that, did you tie their hands or did you

23 beat them?

24 A. No, I did not. Those that I took were not tied. Others

25 I do not know, but I do not think any of them were.

Page 6780

1 Q. So if anybody said that some of those prisoners were

2 tied, had their hands tied and they were beaten either

3 on the way over to the administration building to be

4 interrogated or on their way back, those people would

5 either be lying or they would be wrong; is that what you

6 are telling the judges?

7 MS. McHENRY: Your Honours, may I object, I think this is a

8 misrepresentation. What he said is he does not know

9 about others, but he thinks they were not tied. I think

10 the question mischaracterises the testimony.

11 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: I think you might limit your

12 cross-examination to the answer he gave you.

13 MR. MORAN: Yes, your Honour.

14 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: He said he did not do that. You are

15 trying to find out whether anybody said that he did

16 that.

17 MR. MORAN: Your Honour, let me broaden the question a little

18 bit and I think we can solve that problem.

19 When you were a guard in the camp moving these

20 prisoners from wherever they were being held over to be

21 interrogated by the MUP, you were pretty well aware of

22 what was going on in the camp, were you not?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. And if somebody would have been beating those prisoners

25 on their way to be interrogated or on their way back,

Page 6781

1 you would have known about it, would you not?

2 A. No, I would if I had seen it, but since I did not see

3 it, I cannot say.

4 Q. Okay. Do you know a woman named Grozdana Cecez?

5 A. It was Lazar Cecez's wife.

6 Q. She was a prisoner in the camp, was she not?

7 A. Yes, that is right.

8 Q. When you were investigated by the -- excuse me, that is

9 the wrong word. When you were interrogated by the

10 investigator from the Office of the Prosecutor during

11 your interview with him, he talked to you about

12 Ms. Cecez, did he not?

13 A. Yes.

14 MR. MORAN: Your Honour, in the interests of caution I would

15 like to go into a private session for a couple of

16 minutes. I think that the court knows where I am

17 going.

18 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Yes, we will go into private session.

19 (In closed session)

20 [redacted]

21 [redacted]

22 [redacted]

23 [redacted]

24 [redacted]

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12 (In open session)

13 MR. MORAN: What you are saying then is there may have been a

14 few occasions when food was not provided for a couple of

15 days, but those were rare occasions?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. How was the food supply for the civilians that were

18 living out in the community?

19 A. They were mainly receiving aid from the Red Cross. I do

20 not know, everybody was trying to manage in their own

21 way. People had their own cattle et cetera.

22 Q. You could not just go down to the grocery store and get

23 five pounds of potatoes and three loaves of bread and a

24 five pound roast of beef, could you?

25 A. Yes, there were some shops open and one was able to buy

Page 6788

1 some things.

2 Q. Food was short?

3 A. Of course!

4 Q. Zara Mrkajic. You said that -- let me strike that. Let

5 me back off and talk about something else.

6 You said that it was fairly common, as

7 I understood your testimony on direct, for people that

8 were not part of the guard force or not assigned to the

9 prison at Celebici to come into the camp and abuse

10 prisoners. Do you remember testifying about that?

11 A. Yes, that is right.

12 Q. Who were those people?

13 A. They were from the Ministry of the Internal, then from

14 the Muslim police, then some soldiers from Mitke Pirkic,

15 et cetera.

16 Q. And you said they forced their way into the camp

17 basically, the people at the camp did not have any

18 ability to stop them?

19 A. They were not really forcing their way in because they

20 were fairly dangerous people, they were mainly let in.

21 Some of them had friends amongst the guards so that they

22 were able to get in.

23 Q. Did those people come on few or many occasions to the

24 camp?

25 A. On several occasions.

Page 6789

1 Q. Several is kind of a -- when you say several do you mean

2 seven, eight, ten, more than ten?

3 A. Perhaps five or six times.

4 Q. Okay. In fact, those were the people that beat up Zara

5 Mrkajic, right?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. They are the folks that tied him to the electric pole

8 and beat him and left him there and beat him some more,

9 right?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. These dangerous people came into the prison while you

12 were one of the guards, is that correct, to do what they

13 were doing; they came in to beat prisoners while you

14 were a guard; is that right?

15 A. No, I was not a guard. I was never performing guard

16 duties. As I said, I was on duty by the phone and

17 I drove a car.

18 Q. So you had no responsibility for protecting these

19 prisoners from people that would come in and abuse them,

20 is that what you are saying, sir?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. And you were a member of the military --

23 A. No, I just said again which duties I was performing.

24 I was on duty by the phone and I was a driver. I was

25 not a guard.

Page 6790

1 Q. So you had no responsibility in your mind to protect

2 these prisoners from people that would come into the

3 camp from the outside and beat them; is that correct?

4 A. I had no possibility to prevent them from doing that.

5 I was the only Croat there and since those were

6 dangerous people I could have risked my own life.

7 Q. You were armed with, you said, an automatic weapon; that

8 was a Kalasnikov, was it not, 7.62 millimetre fully

9 automatic weapon?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. And you had bullets to go in it, right?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. And you had training in the Yugoslav National Army on

14 how to use it, did you not?

15 A. So what was I specified to do, kill 20 people, Muslim

16 soldiers who were coming there? I would only get myself

17 into trouble. I had no way and no possibility of doing

18 that, of preventing that.

19 Q. So you made no attempt to do it, no attempt to prevent

20 it, is that what you are saying?

21 A. As I said, I had no possibility, it was not my

22 responsibility to do that.

23 Q. I understand it was not in your job description, sir.

24 A. You understand nothing.

25 Q. Sir, I think I do. I think I do, sir. Sir, I spent

Page 6791

1 most of my adult life wearing a uniform. I think I do.

2 Sir, again I ask you: you did not have any

3 responsibility, you did not do anything to stop these

4 people from coming in; is that what you are telling the

5 judges?

6 A. I said I had no possibility to prevent that because

7 I was the only Croat there, and since I was never

8 keeping guard, very often I could not see them coming.

9 There was no chance for me to stop them, especially

10 because those were dangerous people who were on the

11 frontlines, who were constantly drunk. I had no chance.

12 Q. In fact was there a -- before you went to the camp

13 I thought you told me that you had been assigned to the

14 HVO military police in Konjic. Was that still around or

15 had it been disbanded or had they left the country or

16 what?

17 A. I have not understood the question.

18 Q. Yes, sir. Before you came to the camp, before you were

19 assigned to the Celebici camp, you were assigned to the

20 HVO military police, right?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. That was in Konjic?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. While you were in the camp and these dangerous people

25 were coming in, the HVO military police still existed,

Page 6792

1 did it not?

2 A. No, there were other people who were coming in to abuse

3 the people after HVO left, when I was the only Croat.

4 Q. Sir, what I am getting at is: could you have picked up

5 the phone and called a cop?

6 A. There was a war on it was not -- that would have had no

7 effect. I did not know which police. I cannot call the

8 police if it was the police who came over to beat them.

9 Q. I thought you told the investigator for the Office of

10 the Prosecutor that part of your duties as a military

11 policeman before you went to Konjic was to enforce the

12 law, regardless of whether it was a military or civilian

13 person that had violated the law. Do you remember

14 telling the investigator that? Do you remember telling

15 Mr. Milner that?

16 A. No, I have not heard the translation.

17 Q. Okay. So there were no military police, no HVO military

18 police that you could have called on for help to keep

19 these prisoners from being abused by these dangerous bad

20 people that were coming in from out of the camp, even

21 though you were standing by a telephone, or sitting by a

22 telephone?

23 A. No, there was no possibility for that. I was not just

24 sitting by a phone, it was an office where I sometimes

25 slept. If the phone rang, I would wake up and answer,

Page 6793

1 that is all.

2 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: I suppose this is a convenient point

3 for you to stop?

4 MR. MORAN: I think so, your Honour.

5 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Is that the end of your

6 cross-examination or you will continue tomorrow

7 morning?

8 MR. MORAN: Your Honour, let me think about it overnight.

9 Let me take the Fifth Amendment on that.

10 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Okay, tomorrow morning.

11 MR. MORAN: Thank you very much, your Honour.

12 (5.35 pm)

13 (Court adjourned until 10.00 am the following day)

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