Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 6936

1 Tuesday, 9th September 1997

2 (11.00 am)

3 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Good morning ladies and gentlemen. Can

4 we have the appearances now, please?

5 MR. NIEMANN: If your Honours please, my name is Grant

6 Niemann and I appear with my colleagues Ms. McHenry,

7 Mr. Turone, Ms. Van Dusschoten and Mr. Khan for the

8 Prosecution.

9 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Thank you very much. Can we have the

10 appearances for the Defence?

11 MS. RESIDOVIC: Good morning, your Honour, my name is Edina

12 Residovic, Defence counsel for Mr. Zejnil Delalic. My

13 co-counsel for Mr. Delalic is Mr. Eugene O'Sullivan, a

14 professor from Canada. Thank you.

15 MR. OLUJIC: Good morning your Honour, my name is Zeljko

16 Olujic, Defence counsel from Croatia, appearing on

17 behalf of Mr. Zdravko Mucic. My co-counsel is my

18 colleague Michael Greaves, attorney from the

19 United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland.

20 If it pleases the court, after consultation with

21 my client, he has considerable difficulties with his

22 eyes; therefore with the permission of this Trial

23 Chamber if possible he would like to ask that during the

24 trial he would like to have dark sunglasses.

25 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Thank you very much. Can we have

Page 6937

1 the ...

2 MR. KARABDIC: Good morning your Honour, my name is Salih

3 Karabdic, attorney from Sarajevo with Mr. Tom Moran, a

4 lawyer from Houston Texas. I am the Defence counsel for

5 Mr. Hazim Delic.

6 MR. ACKERMAN: Good morning your Honours, I am John Ackerman

7 and I appear here today along with Cynthia McMurray on

8 behalf of Mr. Esad Landzo. Thank you.

9 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: I think I referred to Mr. Mucic's

10 complaint. Is it dark glasses tendered for protecting

11 his eyes from the light? If it makes him comfortable,

12 there is nothing wrong with it. He can wear his dark

13 glasses.

14 MR. OLUJIC: Thank you, your Honour. That is exactly due to

15 the very strong light, so he has sore eyes and he feels

16 much better if he is wearing dark glasses. I would like

17 to thank your Honours for allowing my client to do so.

18 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: What is the position with the witness,

19 this morning?

20 MR. NIEMANN: Thank you, your Honours. As your Honours are

21 aware we are halfway through the testimony of the

22 witness Draganic and he is available to continue now, if

23 that is convenient to your Honours.

24 I might just at this stage indicate that we have

25 had very great difficulties with witnesses, and

Page 6938

1 considerable problems have arisen. We had intended to

2 have -- there is Mr. Kuljanin, who is the next witness,

3 and then after him there was to be Witness J, witness

4 Zebic and witness Drezic. All three of those witnesses

5 have refused to come to The Hague. Although we are

6 endeavouring to persuade them otherwise, they at this

7 stage simply refuse to come. We are in the process of

8 trying to obtain another witness to come here, but

9 whether we are successful in that is not something I can

10 assure your Honours of, unfortunately, at this stage.

11 As your Honours are aware, there are some outstanding

12 legal arguments, particularly with documents. I do

13 expect the legal argument in respect to the Austrian

14 documents to be very lengthy in terms of consideration

15 of each and every document, so it is possible that most

16 of the time of this week could be devoted to that. It

17 is not entirely a pleasant prospect, but that would take

18 care of perhaps quite a bit of the time.

19 We are endeavouring to obtain another witness, at

20 least one more witness, to deal with that loss that we

21 have had, so that is our current position. Your Honours

22 had suggested we could have legal argument this morning

23 on the question of the admissibility of the one document

24 and handwriting sample that was the subject of a motion

25 yet to be determined. I am not sure whether

Page 6939

1 your Honours wish to deal with that before we complete

2 the evidence of this witness, or whether your Honours

3 would be prepared to permit this witness to complete his

4 evidence and he can go home. He has been here all over

5 the weekend, and as is the case with the other witness

6 who will follow, has been here, in fact, your Honour,

7 since Thursday week, so he has been here almost getting

8 on towards a fortnight.

9 Our position is that we would prefer to deal with

10 the evidence, if that is possible, of the witnesses so

11 they can go home, these two witnesses and then to deal

12 with legal argument which we think will be lengthy and

13 take us some time. If your Honours wish, we are in

14 your Honours' hands as to which way you wish to deal

15 with this. We could now proceed with legal argument,

16 complete the evidence of the witness that is halfway

17 through testifying; it is a matter for your Honours.

18 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: I remember we mentioned the matter of

19 taking the arguments with Mr. Greaves last week, it was

20 to have them taken on Wednesday. Perhaps we should get

21 through the witness which was on at that time, and

22 I suppose Mr. Greaves might not be too strong in

23 objecting if --

24 MR. GREAVES: I am well conscious of my learned friend's

25 sound common sense in dealing with witnesses in that

Page 6940

1 way, because obviously it falls into logical pieces

2 instead of breaking things up with legal argument, then

3 half a witness, then a whole witness, then legal

4 argument again. That does not seem to me to be a very

5 sensible way of doing it.

6 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: I think it is better with all the

7 witnesses giving their evidence and then we will

8 continue with the legal argument, both in your case and

9 the other matter as well, so we are not perhaps breaking

10 the arguments with witnesses in the middle. So when we

11 start the legal arguments, we will continue with it and

12 finish it, in both cases.

13 MR. GREAVES: For a change I find myself in agreement with my

14 learned friend. He should not count on it always

15 though.

16 MR. NIEMANN: I am indebted.

17 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: I think that is a good arrangement.

18 Let us carry on with the witness as we now have him.

19 MS. RESIDOVIC: Your Honour, I would just like to present

20 my view. This is something we have already discussed

21 last week. We do agree with hearing two witnesses and

22 then we want presentation of arguments, but if my

23 colleagues from the Prosecution think that they should

24 call some other witnesses, they should be heard only

25 after we finish all the legal arguments, because we do

Page 6941

1 not wish to be under any pressure of time when we

2 present our arguments. Thank you very much.

3 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: I did not understand them to wish to

4 call all witnesses before legal argument. All witnesses

5 they have on the list and are available now are the ones

6 they wanted to call. Not another witness who is not

7 even around. Just the witnesses we have.

8 RAJKO DRAGANIC (continued)

9 Examined by MR. TURONE (continued)

10 A. Good morning, how are you.

11 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Thank you very much. Can you remind

12 the witness he is still under oath?

13 THE REGISTRAR: I would like to remind you you are still

14 under oath.

15 A. Yes.

16 MR. TURONE: Good morning, your Honours. May I proceed?

17 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Yes, you may.

18 MR. TURONE: Thank you. Good morning, Mr. Draganic?

19 A. Good morning.

20 Q. Mr. Draganic, last week before the break, you were

21 testifying about Scepo Gotovac and more precisely about

22 the second time he was called out of the hangar in the

23 evening at about 9.00 pm. You said you heard screamings

24 outside, then Gotovac was carried into the hangar again

25 and that is where he died, you said.

Page 6942

1 So now let me ask you: approximately how long did

2 Gotovac remain outside this second time in the evening?

3 A. Well, he stayed there for about 10 or 15 minutes.

4 Q. Who returned Gotovac into the hangar this second time in

5 the evening?

6 A. He was carried in by these two, by Todor and Novak

7 Zelenovic.

8 Q. Did anybody invite these two prisoners to return Gotovac

9 into the hangar on this occasion?

10 A. Yes, they were called by Zenga.

11 Q. Was Zenga there too? Did you see him being present?

12 A. Yes, he was there.

13 Q. Did he say anything else at this time?

14 A. I do not know, he told him to go out. He could not go

15 out so these two carried him. Later, he also called

16 them to carry him inside.

17 Q. Did then Gotovac reach his position in the hangar,

18 helped by these two prisoners, or was he in a position

19 to move by himself?

20 A. No, he could not move himself. He was already dead.

21 Q. You mean already dead or already almost dead?

22 A. Almost dead. He did not really live for more than five

23 minutes after he got into the hangar.

24 Q. Was Gotovac brought again in the same position near you?

25 A. Yes, he was there, I mean across from me, next to me.

Page 6943

1 Q. So could you observe Gotovac and his body with some

2 attention, either that night or the following morning?

3 A. We took him out the next morning, in the morning, when

4 it dawned. Then we saw it.

5 Q. I mean, could you observe his body with some attention?

6 A. I mean the man was wearing a suit, he was a dead man.

7 We did not really pay all that much attention.

8 Q. Did you see specific bruises, injuries on him?

9 MS. McMURREY: Your Honour, I am going to object. That is

10 asked and answered. He said he did not pay close

11 attention to him.

12 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

13 MS. McMURREY: He said he did not pay close attention to

14 him. The question has already been asked and answered.

15 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Put your question to him.

16 MR. TURONE: Mr. Gotovac, do you remember if you saw any

17 specific bruises or injuries or blood on Gotovac?

18 A. I did not, I mean the head was bruised, he had bruises

19 on his body. I guess he did. I did not see it, but he

20 was badly beaten up, you could see that, but he was

21 wearing a suit so I could not really see.

22 Q. How could you notice that he died a few minutes after

23 coming back into the hangar? How could you realise

24 that?

25 A. I saw it, I mean I saw him going still, because it was

Page 6944

1 not really dark, you could really -- there was still

2 some daylight until 10.00. He stopped breathing.

3 Branko Zelenovic and he also said "Scepo is dying, Scepo

4 has just died". That is what happened.

5 Q. What about the following morning. Could you personally

6 observe the following morning the body to remain

7 motionless for a significant amount of time?

8 A. Yes, he was lying there and then they came maybe around

9 10.00, 9.00 or 10.00. They carried him out and I do not

10 know where they took him.

11 Q. Who came and removed the body, Mr. Draganic? Do you

12 know?

13 A. There was Delic and Zenga there, he was taken out by the

14 prisoners. They closed the door and I do not know where

15 they took him.

16 Q. Was this the last time you saw Gotovac or his body?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Already, thank you. Mr. Draganic, could you personally

19 observe any other incident which led to the death of any

20 prisoner?

21 A. Well, I mean, I do not know which date it was exactly,

22 they called up Simo Jovanovic, they called him up. They

23 beat him up outside and they carried him into the

24 hangar. It was night and naturally in the morning we

25 saw him dead, he was lying there at his place. I mean,

Page 6945

1 I heard that and I saw it. I know when they called him

2 up, when they took him. Zenga called him up. He went

3 outside and they hit him there. They beat him up and

4 they also dragged him in, I do not know which ones were

5 the ones who dragged him inside but he was there the

6 next morning when it dawned they also came for him and

7 they drove him away.

8 Q. You said you do not remember the date, but do you at

9 least remember the month in which this incident

10 occurred?

11 A. I think that it was the month of July, the month of July

12 1992.

13 Q. Did you hear Zenga saying anything specific in this

14 occasion?

15 A. He called Jovanovic up, he called up his name and he

16 went outside, and something concrete I really do not

17 know. I do not remember hearing anything else.

18 Q. How long did Jovanovic remain outside?

19 A. Something like 15, 20 minutes.

20 Q. What could you hear from outside? Could you hear any

21 noise coming from outside --

22 A. We heard blows and screaming and crying of a man while

23 he had strength and then when it stopped, when he

24 stopped screaming, then they called for someone to carry

25 him inside. They carried him inside. When we saw him

Page 6946

1 in the morning, he was dead and he was covered with an

2 army coat.

3 Q. Did Jovanovic reach his position in the hangar by

4 himself at that time when he was brought inside?

5 A. No, he did not. He was also carried inside by two

6 prisoners.

7 Q. Do you remember to which position inside the hangar was

8 Jovanovic brought, his position inside the hangar?

9 A. Also I mean where he was lying, I think it was in the

10 fourth row from the door, somewhere in the middle of the

11 hangar.

12 MR. TURONE: May I ask the Registry again to provide the

13 witness again with Exhibit 174, the map of the hangar,

14 please? Just let it be on the ELMO, please, with a pen

15 or a pencil being provided to the witness. (Handed).

16 Can you please, Mr. Draganic, mark with a circle

17 the position of Mr. Jovanovic on this map and write

18 "Jovanovic" just close to this circle. (Witness marks

19 map). Thank you very much.

20 Mr. Draganic, could you observe Mr. Jovanovic with

21 some attention and describe him? Did you see specific

22 bruises, specific injuries, any blood on him after he

23 came back?

24 A. In the morning I saw it in the morning when it dawned,

25 we all watched and he was bruised, his head was almost

Page 6947

1 black, and we held his arms, his legs. He was really

2 badly beaten, he obviously had broken bones. You could

3 see that from a distance. I have nothing else to say.

4 Q. Did the body have any movement? Was it motionless?

5 A. A dead body next to us, a dead stiff body.

6 Q. How long could you observe the body remaining there

7 motionless in the hangar before he was removed?

8 A. Well, we could see it in the morning as of 4.00 until

9 9.00 or 10.0, which was when they carried him away.

10 I do not know, for five or six hours.

11 Q. Did anybody order to remove the body?

12 A. They came, but I really cannot say exactly now. They

13 came and they said -- I do not know whether it was Delic

14 or Zenga, I cannot remember everything now, but they

15 just came, they carried the body outside and they drove

16 it away. I do not know where they drove it away.

17 Q. Was this the last time you saw the body of Jovanovic?

18 A. Yes, the last time.

19 Q. All right. Could you personally observe any other

20 incident which led to the death of any other prisoner?

21 A. I saw Bosko Samoukovic. He was also sitting behind me

22 in the fourth row against the wall, and Zenga was

23 beating some prisoners from Bradina and then he called

24 for Bosko and he beat him up. He forced him to do

25 push-ups and he did push-ups and he was hitting him in

Page 6948

1 the chest with his boot, with a rifle butt. Then there

2 was a 7 by 10 plank and he hit him several times and the

3 man fell. His sons were there as well, his two sons

4 were in the camp. Then he ordered him to be taken out

5 to fresh air. They took him or they carried him out and

6 one of his sons went to the infirmary, to number 22, and

7 when he came back, he said that his father had died, and

8 I saw him then and that was the last time I ever saw

9 him.

10 Q. Can you say approximately how long did Bosko

11 Samoukovic's beating last?

12 A. That was perhaps 10, 15 minutes. To me at the time it

13 seemed very long. I do not know exactly how long it

14 was. We were all there. It was in the hangar and all

15 the prisoners saw it. That was not outside. Such

16 beating and such humiliation and mistreatment, a person

17 in his right mind would not be able to do something like

18 that.

19 Q. Mr. Draganic, did Zenga say anything while beating

20 Samoukovic?

21 A. He did say, but I cannot really guess what he said

22 because I cannot remember. He did say things, but

23 I cannot say exactly what it was. But he did say

24 things.

25 Q. Can you say approximately when did this incident happen,

Page 6949

1 at least in which month?

2 A. I think it was also in July, July. It was probably

3 around 12.00.

4 Q. All right, thank you. Again, did you personally observe

5 any other incident which led to the death of another

6 prisoner?

7 A. Well also when Zeljko Klimenta was killed, I was in the

8 hangar, it was in the morning, I think it was 26th July

9 1992. The guard Padalovic called outside Ratko Cecez,

10 Nenad Cecez and Kujundzic, nicknamed Gala. They were

11 doling out food in the hangar, he called them to go

12 outside. They left the hangar and Zeljko Klimenta asked

13 whether he could go out as well. So he left the hangar,

14 it was about 7.00 am and they were there. Then

15 Kujundzic ran into the hangar and Cecez as well, he was

16 holding his head, we asked what happened. There was a

17 shot, we could hear a shot and he said Keljo got killed,

18 so this is what I saw, this is what I heard actually.

19 I did not see that.

20 Q. After how long did you hear the shot outside after these

21 people going outside the hangar?

22 A. Well, they left about 5.00 and this happened around 7.00

23 am.

24 Q. Did any of these people you mentioned Kujundzic, Ratko

25 Cecez et cetera, tell you anything more precise about

Page 6950

1 how Klimenta was shot?

2 A. They were there, and he said that he was joking, that he

3 did not know he had a bullet in the Chamber and that he

4 fired the shot as a joke. That is what I heard from

5 them from talking to them.

6 Q. When you say he, who do you mean with he?

7 A. I mean Padalovic, the guard. He said that he did not

8 know he had a round in the Chamber, and that it was all

9 an accident.

10 Q. Mr. Draganic, could you personally see after that which

11 was the place where Klimenta was shot?

12 A. I did not see the position towards the door of the

13 hangar, I just saw them washing away the blood in the

14 place where he was killed, but I did not see him because

15 the door was closed.

16 Q. Where was the blood?

17 A. In front of the hangar, maybe about 5 or 6 metres away

18 from the hangar towards the guard post.

19 Q. All right. Now, Mr. Draganic, did you personally

20 eyewitness any other mistreatment of any other prisoners

21 while you were in hangar 6, even if it did not lead to

22 the death of anybody?

23 A. I was there when Mirko Babic was burned, when his

24 trousers were burned by Zenga and he was not allowed to

25 put the fire out. The fire was burning, the cloth was

Page 6951

1 on fire and it caused burns on him. I was an

2 eyewitness, I saw the burns, the horrible burns that he

3 had. And I also saw various beatings and maltreatments.

4 Q. Let us focus on this incident concerning Mirko Babic?

5 MS. McMURREY: Your Honour, if I might object. I believe

6 that the witness has said "I eyewitnessed the burns

7 themselves". I would just ask that the Prosecutor be

8 asked to lay the proper predicate as to whether he was

9 an eyewitness to the actual event or not.

10 MR. TURONE: This is exactly what I am going through, details

11 about this incident.

12 MS. McMURREY: Thank you.

13 MR. TURONE: What did you personally see Zenga doing to

14 Mr. Mirko Babic, if anything?

15 A. I saw that personally. I saw when he put his trousers

16 on fire and he was not allowed to put it out, so it was

17 on fire, it burned and normally caused burns.

18 Q. Mr. Draganic, did that happen inside the hangar?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Can you say in detail how did Zenga put fire on Babic's

21 trousers?

22 A. He took a match, lit the trousers and they were on fire.

23 Q. Was that done on one leg or both legs?

24 A. On one leg. I saw it just on one leg.

25 Q. Which part of the leg, the lower part of the leg below

Page 6952

1 the knee or over the knee?

2 A. The lower part of the leg.

3 Q. You said you could personally see his injuries; is that

4 correct?

5 A. Yes, that is correct.

6 Q. Can you describe this injury in detail? What do you see

7 exactly on the leg of Mr. Mirko Babic?

8 A. On the leg of Mirko Babic I saw a very bad burn.

9 I cannot really describe it, it looked like pine bark,

10 it was black, the wound was black and it was covered in

11 blood.

12 Q. You said this happened inside the hangar. Can you show

13 to the court which position exactly inside the hangar,

14 using the map on your right-hand side, please? Could

15 you please mark on the map with a circle the position of

16 Mirko Babic and write the name "Mirko Babic" right near

17 this circle? Thank you very much. (Witness marks map).

18 Mr. Draganic, can you say approximately when did

19 this incident happen, at least in which month, if you

20 remember, approximately? If you do not remember, never

21 mind.

22 A. I think it was in early July 1992, but I do not know the

23 exact date.

24 Q. Did Mirko Babic receive any medical care after this

25 incident, as far as you know?

Page 6953

1 A. Not immediately, maybe a few days later. Delic brought

2 some ointments which they put on the wounds, but not

3 immediately then.

4 Q. Did Zenga say anything during the incident itself, while

5 putting fire on the leg?

6 A. He did say something, but I cannot tell you now what it

7 was because I cannot remember what he was saying. I did

8 not pay much attention to that.

9 Q. Did you personally eyewitness any other incident

10 concerning any other prisoner while you were in hangar

11 6?

12 A. I was also able to observe Spaso Miljevic. Zenga

13 tortured him. He heated up the knife and made him hold

14 the knife with his hands so he had blisters on his

15 hands. That is what I was able to see.

16 Q. Could you personally see the blisters?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Can you --

19 A. He showed me, that prisoner showed me.

20 Q. Can you describe how did Zenga heat the knife?

21 A. He spilt some liquid on the concrete floor and set fire

22 on it, and then he heated the knife in it and forced him

23 to hold the knife in his hand.

24 Q. Did that happen inside the hangar?

25 A. Yes.

Page 6954

1 Q. Can you again show to the court on the map on your right

2 what the position of Spaso Miljevic, with a circle on

3 that map, and just close to that write "Miljevic",

4 please. (Witness marks map). Thank you very much.

5 Can you say approximately when did all this

6 happen, approximately at least the month?

7 A. Well it was also July. I do not know the exact date,

8 but it was in July.

9 Q. Did Spaso Miljevic receive any medical care after this

10 incident?

11 A. I do not know, really.

12 Q. Again, as far as you remember, did Zenga say anything

13 during this incident?

14 A. I do not know. He was saying things that he was Arkan,

15 that he was a volunteer -- he was saying lots of

16 things. I really do not know. He was telling him

17 things. I do not know anything specific, I just know

18 that he was saying -- he was telling him that he was

19 Arkan, that he would pay for everything.

20 Q. Do you remember any other incident, any mistreatment

21 concerning any other --

22 A. Well, I remember the incident with Vukasin Mrkajic,

23 where Zenga put a slow burning fuse and set it on fire

24 and forced him to run around the hangar. He put it in

25 his underwear and he was running and the fuse was

Page 6955

1 burning. He was screaming, and then I think that Zenga

2 pulled out the fuse out of his underwear.

3 Q. How did Zenga wrap the fuse around Vukasin Mrkajic?

4 A. He put it on the backside and pulled it to the other

5 side and set it on fire.

6 Q. Could you personally see Vukasin's injuries from the

7 fuse, if any injuries he received?

8 A. No, I was not able to see that.

9 Q. Again, do you remember whether Zenga said anything

10 during this incident?

11 A. He was saying things. Vukasin was the chairman of the

12 SDS for Bradina, so he was threatening him. I do not

13 know the specific things that he told him. I cannot

14 remember all the details now.

15 Q. Do you remember any other incident, any other

16 mistreatment of other prisoners?

17 A. I also remember the two brothers, Vaso and Veseljko

18 Dordic. Mr. Delic was there also and they forced them to

19 slap each other, to beat each other and then Zenga

20 forced the two brothers to, if you will excuse me, this

21 is really sad and humiliating, but I really saw that,

22 they forced them to do something with their sexual

23 organs. This is something that a normal human being

24 could not do. This is really terrible, what they were

25 doing. These were innocent people, and this was all

Page 6956

1 done, they were maltreated for no reason at all.

2 Q. Mr. Draganic, do not feel uncomfortable. Let us say

3 exactly what they were forced to do.

4 A. They had to suck each others' penises, if you will

5 excuse me, in front of everybody else, all of us in the

6 hangar.

7 Q. Right. Did Veseljko and Vaso Dordic suffer any other

8 mistreatment beside that?

9 A. It was not Zenga who was -- actually Zenga was beating

10 everybody all the time, he was kicking them. He was

11 beating them with rifle buts, every time he would feel

12 like it, he would come in and beat people.

13 Q. Was any relative of Veseljko and Vaso Dordic present in

14 the hangar any time?

15 A. Yes, there were relatives, Nebolsa, Dragisa, Gojko,

16 there were quite a few relatives there.

17 Q. Was the father of Veseljko and Vaso Dordic ever present

18 in the hangar?

19 A. Their father was brought in on 12th July, I remember

20 that, and he spent just one night there, and in the

21 morning he was taken out of the camp and they remained.

22 Q. Do you remember who called the father of the two

23 brothers out of the hangar when he left?

24 A. Pavo came in the morning and he called him out and

25 Jelenko left and never came back. His sons remained in

Page 6957

1 hangar number 6.

2 Q. All right. Mr. Draganic, can you remember any other

3 incident who you might have eyewitnessed while you were

4 inside hangar 6?

5 A. Well there was Branko Gotovac, Zenga beat him very

6 badly. Zenga was saying that -- recalling some incident

7 when they were neighbours, so that this man was

8 virtually almost dying, he was very sick and then

9 Mr. Delic came and took Mr. Gotovac to the infirmary, to

10 number 22 so he survived, he recovered.

11 Q. Is there anything, any other incident you might remember

12 concerning other prisoners?

13 A. There were incidents, Jovo Draganic was also beaten by

14 Mr. Delic. He was beaten with a baseball bat. I do not

15 know how he survived that. All those blows. There are

16 many other details, and I cannot really recall all of

17 them.

18 Q. Do you know a name by the name Dusan Bendzo?

19 A. Yes, I forgot about that, Dusan Bendzo. Zenga also set

20 his trousers on fire and he was burned. He beat him and

21 he maltreated him. I do not know how he survived all

22 that.

23 Q. Could you personally see his injury?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Can you describe this injury?

Page 6958

1 A. It was also a burn on his lower leg. The wound was blue

2 and red, you know what a burn looks like.

3 Q. Did that also happen inside the hangar?

4 A. Yes, inside the hangar.

5 Q. Can you please show to the court with this map the

6 position of Dusan Bendzo inside hangar 6 with a circle,

7 writing the word "Bendzo" right near it. (Witness marks

8 map).

9 Your Honour, may I tender for admission

10 Exhibit 174?

11 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Yes.

12 MS. McMURREY: Your Honour, excuse me, just for

13 clarification purposes could we have the witness draw

14 the lines so we know which line that these people were

15 seated in, just so we can tell perceptually where they

16 are.

17 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: The seating arrangement, whether he can

18 indicate the seating arrangement so we can be more

19 exact.

20 MR. TURONE: If you can draw the lines, Mr. Draganic, in order

21 to indicate the lines according to where the prisoners

22 were sitting and so that it is clear to which lines all

23 the marks you did belong. (Witness marks map).

24 A. This is the second row, this is the third row and this

25 is the fourth row.

Page 6959

1 MR. TURONE: All right. Is 174 admitted, your Honour?

2 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: It is already an exhibit in the

3 proceedings.

4 MR. TURONE: Okay, thank you.

5 Mr. Draganic, were you ever interrogated by

6 military investigators while you were in Celebici?

7 A. I was interrogated about three or four days. It was

8 18th or 20th June 1992 after we were brought in. That

9 was when I was interrogated.

10 Q. Where in the camp were you interrogated?

11 A. In the Celebici command building.

12 Q. Who called you out of the hangar in order to take you to

13 the command building?

14 A. A guard, I do not know who he was. He called out some

15 of us, so we came to the command building, and he said

16 we should lean against the wall and put our heads

17 against the wall and to wait there.

18 Q. Which wall are you talking about, Mr. Draganic?

19 A. The infirmary, building number 22.

20 Q. So you said you were called out of the hangar with some

21 other prisoners?

22 A. Yes, from building number 6.

23 Q. Yes, but how many prisoners were called outside together

24 with you?

25 A. Six of us, myself, Goran Draganic, Marinko Zivak, Jovo

Page 6960

1 Draganic, Branko Zelenovic and Bozo Zivak, I think.

2 Q. Among these six prisoners who were called out of the

3 hangar at the same time, were you the first who was

4 interrogated?

5 A. Goran Draganic was the first. I was the second.

6 Q. Where did you stay while waiting for your turn to be

7 interrogated?

8 A. We were next to the infirmary, number 22. We were

9 waiting there to be called in, and while we waited the

10 man nicknamed Hodza called Goran Draganic out, they knew

11 each other well, they went to school together and the

12 rest of us continued waiting. While we waited I looked

13 around and I saw a guard walking. He was holding some

14 kind much an instrument and he beat everything once and

15 when he came to me he did not beat me. Then we waited

16 for a while and then Mr. Delic came and asked Jovo

17 Draganic who was next to me, he asked "where is your

18 beard and your song? You used to sing". He said, "you

19 will pay for this". Then he left. Then the second time

20 a guard came carrying a hammer, it was a wooden or a

21 rubber hammer and he beat Marinko Zivak and he fell

22 down. Again he did not beat me.

23 Then after a while a third person came holding

24 some kind of a bat and then he approached me, it was in

25 summer and I was wearing a shirt, and he pulled up my

Page 6961

1 shirt to my neck and he hit me twice on the back, so

2 this finished and then I was called in, it was my turn

3 and I was questioned.

4 Q. Mr. Draganic, is what you describe right now happened

5 while you were facing the wall of building 22?

6 A. Yes, that is right.

7 Q. Did that happen while you were waiting for your turn,

8 while Goran Draganic was being interrogated; is that

9 correct?

10 A. Yes, that is correct.

11 Q. So you mentioned the name of somebody called Hodza who

12 called Goran Draganic to be interrogated. Do you know

13 who is this person and what is the complete name of him?

14 A. I know him personally, his father was called Hodza, they

15 lived in Bradina, I know him as well, but I do not know

16 his exact name, his first and last names.

17 Q. When your turn came, can you say who were the persons

18 who interrogated you?

19 A. There was Hodza and two other people, two other men and

20 a woman who was a secretary. I did not know many people

21 in Konjic because I did not work there. I worked in the

22 fields so I did not spend much time in Konjic.

23 Q. I see. Were these people in uniform?

24 A. No.

25 Q. How were you treated during the very interrogation?

Page 6962

1 A. They asked me where I was for the past six months, what

2 I was doing, whether I had weapons, who had given me the

3 weapon and I answered all their questions; where you

4 were, I said in Bradina, they asked me whether I had

5 fired the weapon, I said no, and then they told me, "you

6 are all saying that you do not know anything now" and he

7 cursed my mother. That is all. They did not really

8 question me much, so my statement was very brief.

9 I said that I was in Libya, and that I had arrived on

10 28th April in 1992, that I had come home at that time.

11 Q. Mr. Draganic, can you say in which room of the command

12 building were you interrogated? I mean, did the room

13 face the camp or face the road outside the camp?

14 A. At the entrance of the command, down along the hallway,

15 the last room on the right, that is where I was

16 interrogated.

17 Q. Just to be clear, did the window or windows of the room

18 face the camp or face the road outside the camp?

19 A. I honestly cannot say. I was not really paying

20 attention to that. I just do not know. If I was on the

21 right-hand side, we were facing the street, and not the

22 camp, towards the town of Celebici.

23 Q. If we show you a model of the command building, would

24 you be in a position to indicate the very room where you

25 were?

Page 6963

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. May I ask the usher to show the witness the enlarged

3 model of the command building, so the big building under

4 there. Just turn it the other side --

5 MS. McMURREY: Your Honour, I am just going to have to ask

6 the court's indulgence, because this was so long ago

7 these models were placed before us. If my memory serves

8 me correctly, I believe that model was not introduced

9 into evidence because they could not verify that it was

10 accurate in any way. I know the model of the camp

11 itself was but I believe this model was not introduced

12 at that time. I may be wrong, but that is what

13 I remember. That was back in early March. Is there

14 some way that we can verify that?

15 MR. TURONE: I think I remember that we had a second witness,

16 Mr. Broubils, after Mr. Bellen who introduced this model

17 2.

18 MS. McMURREY: Your Honour, I really cannot remember that.

19 I do remember there was a controversy over that one

20 model. I will leave it up to your memory as to what you

21 remember about it.

22 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Actually it depends upon the purpose

23 for which it is now being used. If it is only to

24 indicate where the witness stayed and if he could give

25 the bearing from where he could see things, perhaps it

Page 6964

1 might be mutually useful.

2 MS. McMURREY: I believe it could be. I think our

3 objection back then was that if they could not

4 authenticate that it was accurate, then it could not be

5 used for demonstrative purposes because then the person

6 would be thrown off. I will leave it up to the court.

7 I just vaguely remember something eight months ago that

8 dealt with that building.

9 MR. TURONE: May I remind my learned colleague of the Defence

10 that actually this model was admitted through the second

11 witness.

12 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: The second witness.

13 MS. McMURREY: Then I accept Mr. Turone's explanation as

14 true.

15 MR. TURONE: Do you recognise the door, the entrance of the

16 building, Mr. Draganic? If you take out the roof of the

17 building, could you please indicate to the court, as far

18 as you remember, which was the room in which you were

19 interrogated? You can stand up if you wish.

20 A. In this room here (indicates).

21 Q. The room has a number. May the usher say the number

22 which appears in the room?

23 A. 12, here.

24 THE USHER: 12.

25 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: The first one.

Page 6965

1 MR. TURONE: All right. Mr. Draganic, it does not -- it is

2 all right, thank you. We have finished with that.

3 MS. McMURREY: If I might just ask that we have a number

4 for that exhibit so I can mark it in my notes to be more

5 accurate, please.

6 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Thank you very much. Provide the

7 number of the exhibit.

8 THE REGISTRAR: It is number 2B.

9 MR. TURONE: Okay. Mr. Draganic, did you sign any piece of

10 paper, any record after the --

11 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone.

12 MR. TURONE: I am sorry. Mr. Draganic, did you sign any piece

13 of paper, any record after that interrogation?

14 A. I cannot really remember whether I signed anything or

15 not. I did give a statement, but whether I signed it or

16 not, it is possible that I did, but I just cannot

17 remember.

18 Q. Apart from signing, do you remember having read,

19 anything written concerning your statement or not?

20 A. No, I did not read it, nor was it given to me to read.

21 Q. What happened after the interrogation? Did you have to

22 remain outside again, against the wall, or not?

23 A. Yes, we did stay against the wall and then when we were

24 finished the guards took us to the hangar, to number 6.

25 Q. Were you beaten again while --

Page 6966

1 A. No, no.

2 Q. All right. Did the Red Cross ever visit the camp during

3 your stay there?

4 A. Yes, they did in July. I was there and that was when we

5 were registered. When the Red Cross came, we were

6 allowed to say what our problems were without the

7 presence of the guards. Then in the evening when the

8 Red Cross left, then eight guards came and Delic and

9 Zenga were there and then we were beaten up, because we

10 had said perhaps what was happening in the camp or

11 something like that and maybe they saw it and that is

12 when we were beaten and mistreated.

13 Q. Was there any other time when the Red Cross came, or

14 only once, do you remember?

15 A. Twice more while I was in the camp, but I cannot

16 remember the exact dates, because on 30th August I was

17 released to go home.

18 Q. What happened in the other occasions when the Red Cross

19 came, if anything?

20 A. Nothing really happened. Later it was better, the food

21 was better and they were not beating us as much.

22 Q. Going back to the occasion on which you were beaten

23 after the first visit you have been talking about, did

24 the guards say anything while beating you on that

25 occasion?

Page 6967

1 A. No, somebody from Foca then again somebody from Modric,

2 Kumdic that was his name, four of them, it was done very

3 quickly, like in films, I was kicked on both sides,

4 I was hit. I really thought I would not survive

5 something like that. I have survived everything and

6 then they went on, they beat people up very quickly and

7 then they just left the hangar.

8 Q. Besides this, besides what you said already, did you

9 personally suffer any other beating or physical

10 maltreatment during your stay in Celebici?

11 A. No, only once Mr. Delic hit me, kicked me here and when

12 we were going outside to the toilet we had to run, and

13 on my way back, the rope holding my trousers was

14 undone. I started laughing because my trousers almost

15 fell down and I did not see Delic inside, so I sat down

16 to my place and then all of a sudden there was

17 somebody's foot here. He swore at me and I did not know

18 what to say, because my trousers were falling down and

19 then after that I was not beaten.

20 Q. With what did Mr. Delic beat you in that occasion?

21 A. He kicked me. He was wearing boots.

22 Q. Okay. Did you know Delic from before the war?

23 A. No, I did not.

24 Q. Did you know Zenga from before the war?

25 A. No, I did not know Zenga either.

Page 6968

1 Q. Which role did you observe Delic having in the Celebici

2 camp?

3 A. I do not know. We called him Mr. Commander, but exactly

4 what his role was, I do not know. He knows, but I do

5 not.

6 Q. Do you have any knowledge of who was Mr. Delic's superior

7 inside the camp?

8 MR. GREAVES: With respect, he has described Mr. Delic as

9 Mr. Commander. That implies that he is the superior.

10 MR. TURONE: Let us rephrase the question. Do you know who

11 was the superior of Mr. Delic?

12 A. It was Mr. Pavo, Zdravko Mucic.

13 Q. Do you know what was the role of Mr. Mucic?

14 A. They used to say that he was the camp commander, but

15 that I do not know. He used to come there.

16 Q. Did you ever see Mr. Mucic in the camp?

17 A. I did, several times.

18 Q. Approximately how many times did you see Mr. Mucic in the

19 camp?

20 A. I saw him perhaps on ten occasions during the time that

21 I was there.

22 Q. Can you say in which parts of the camp did you see him

23 and doing what?

24 A. On one occasion, an Arab TV crew, I think, was visiting

25 us and there were about ten of them, the crew and Pavo,

Page 6969

1 Delic and some others, and they asked some people about

2 their -- about what was happening. They asked Zeljko

3 what his treatment was and he naturally said certain

4 things, but there were naturally certain things that he

5 did not dare say, as things were.

6 Q. Did Mr. Mucic usually wear a uniform?

7 A. Well he was wearing trousers with pockets and he had a

8 T-shirt and he had an automatic gun.

9 Q. Did you know Mr. Mucic from before the war?

10 A. No.

11 Q. Mr. Draganic, when did you finally leave Celebici camp?

12 Do you remember the date?

13 MR. OLUJIC: An objection, asked and answered.

14 JUDGE JAN: He said 30th August, if I remember correctly.

15 If I remember correctly, he said 30th August.

16 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

17 MR. TURONE: I apologise, your Honour, you are right. I am

18 sorry. This is the end, but your Honour, just for the

19 record to be clear, since we did not clarify that when

20 the witness pointed the area of the manholes on the

21 model, and since there is not really a sticker in that

22 area, may I be allowed to ask the witness this last

23 question?

24 Mr. Draganic, can you say approximately in which

25 part of the camp were the manholes you have been talking

Page 6970

1 about during your testimony?

2 A. Where to show you? On the map?

3 Q. I know you showed us on the map, but can you say, just

4 describe with your own words approximately in which part

5 of the camp the manhole area was?

6 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: You can use the model.

7 MR. TURONE: You can point again to the model if you wish and

8 say where the area was, close to what.

9 A. There, the manholes are there (indicates).

10 Q. My problem is that there is not a sticker any more on

11 that area. It used to be. For the record, I would like

12 to make clear --

13 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Does anything there show manholes?

14 Does anything there demonstrate that there are manholes

15 there?

16 MR. TURONE: There is a number of small squares.

17 A. As far as I could see, but I could not really observe

18 that because I was not really allowed to look while they

19 were taking us there. I had to look straight ahead,

20 I could not really have a close look at things to really

21 observe.

22 MR. TURONE: Anyway, just for the record, let us say that he

23 pointed at an area which is not far from the gate.

24 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: How then do we identify it?

25 JUDGE JAN: Just behind tunnel number 9.

Page 6971

1 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, your Honour.

2 MR. TURONE: Just behind tunnel number 9, as Judge Jan says.

3 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: If there is anyone who has talked about

4 manholes, then we should identify them.

5 MR. TURONE: I did not get you, your Honour.

6 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: You do not understand that this is the

7 only witness who has spoken about manholes.

8 MR. TURONE: Then I think we pointed out for the record that

9 he indicated an area right behind tunnel 9.

10 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: If that satisfies you as the

11 Prosecution, we can rely on that.

12 MR. TURONE: I think so, your Honour. This is the end of my

13 examination-in-chief. Thank you very much.

14 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Any cross-examination, please?

15 MS. RESIDOVIC: Your Honour, I would like to inform you

16 that Defence for Mr. Delalic has no questions for this

17 witness. The cross-examination will be Mucic's Defence

18 counsel, Defence counsel for Mr. Delic and finally

19 Defence counsel for Mr. Landzo.

20 MR. OLUJIC: Your Honour as for Defence counsel for

21 Mr. Zdravko Mucic, we also have no questions for this

22 witness. As far as we are concerned, this would

23 complete our cross-examination.

24 MR. MORAN: Your Honour, I would like to say I have no

25 questions, but in fact I do. Let me go and get wired up

Page 6972

1 down here. May it please the court?

2 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: You may proceed.

3 Cross-examined by MR. MORAN

4 Q. Good morning, Mr. Draganic -- or I guess it is good

5 afternoon, sir.

6 A. Good morning.

7 Q. My name is Tom Moran and I am Hazim Delic's lawyer.

8 I am going to ask you some questions, some of which are

9 going to be directly related to what you have already

10 talked about and some of which may have something to do

11 with your statement, some which may not be anything you

12 have talked about at all. I would like to ask you if we

13 could have a deal, that you will listen to my questions

14 and if you do not understand them, stop me and I will

15 rephrase it so that you do understand it. Can we do

16 that?

17 A. Okay.

18 Q. If you would listen to my questions and just answer the

19 question that I ask, I think we -- some of them just

20 call for yes or no.

21 A. Fine.

22 Q. I think that will get us out of here a lot quicker.

23 Another thing is you have been nodding and you have also

24 answered out loud. I would like to point out that there

25 are two ladies in the courtroom, court reporters, and

Page 6973

1 they have to write down anything any of us say. They

2 cannot write down a nod. If you answer in words? Can

3 we do that?

4 A. Okay.

5 Q. Okay, that is great, sir. Thank you very much.

6 The first thing I would like to talk to you about

7 is the military actions that you were involved in.

8 I understand that you had a M48 rifle.

9 A. 48, yes.

10 Q. That is a military rifle, is it not, sir?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. It fires, what, 7.62 millimetre military round?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. And it is designed to shoot people?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. And it is what, a bolt action rifle, is it not?

17 A. M48.

18 Q. Yes, sir. Do you have to work the action every time you

19 fire a shot; is that not right, sir? Lift the bolt and

20 pull it back and put it forward by hand?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. So it is what we would call a bolt action rifle?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. When did you get that, sir?

25 A. I got it when I came back from Libya, around 6th,

Page 6974

1 5th May 1992.

2 Q. Okay. Did you have to pay for it or did someone give it

3 to you?

4 A. I was given the gun, and I was told, "you should have

5 it, you need it to defend your home". I did not really

6 think I would need it for that purpose.

7 Q. Sir, were you in any kind of a military unit with a

8 commander or anything like that?

9 A. Let me tell you, there was really no commander. If

10 there was a commander perhaps things would have happened

11 differently. We were simply a village. We simply got

12 together to prevent things. We went to the town

13 community to negotiate. We prepared minutes of 10th May

14 that we would leave each other alone, because in my

15 village there were only Muslims and Serbs but as soon as

16 the minutes were signed, perhaps after two hours, as

17 soon as we returned, there was already an attack and

18 that is when we fled, the younger people, younger women

19 all fled to Bradina.

20 Q. Okay, so -- you did not have any kind of uniform or

21 badges or anything to show you were in some kind of a

22 military unit, did you?

23 A. Nothing, I had nothing. I was in civilian clothing.

24 Q. By the way, you were a citizen of Bosnia-Herzegovina at

25 the time, were you not?

Page 6975

1 A. Yes, we were citizens of Yugoslavia. I was a Yugoslav.

2 We were all Yugoslavs until then.

3 Q. Okay, that is fine, sir. Let me go on to something

4 else.

5 Let me jump forward to when you arrived at the

6 Celebici camp, okay? You were on that truck --

7 A. Okay.

8 Q. -- about 65 of you, 64, 65 prisoners taken off the truck

9 and made to stand against this wall; do you remember

10 that?

11 A. Yes, I do remember that.

12 Q. Do you remember if there were a whole lot of guards

13 around?

14 A. There were, but I honestly do not remember how many,

15 because we were not allowed to look. I did not dare

16 look, I did not look. They were there, but I really do

17 not know how many.

18 Q. Yes, sir and I understand that under those circumstances

19 you could not count them. Could you help me out on

20 this, were there just a few, was there a whole lot of

21 them, or was it somewhere in between? Can you give me

22 an approximate number, that is what I am asking for.

23 A. Maybe something like that, maybe 10, 15. I really do

24 not know. Maybe there were more, I really cannot

25 remember. I cannot say precisely because I did not dare

Page 6976

1 look at them so I did not see so I am not able to say

2 what the exact number was, because I simply do not know.

3 Q. I understand that sir. No one is pressing you for an

4 exact number. You could not count them. Did you get

5 any feel for what their mood was? Was it a nasty mood,

6 did they appear to be well behaved troops? How did they

7 appear?

8 A. I do not know. We were standing against the wall for a

9 while and then we were told to take everything out of

10 our pockets. We did so and then after that, I really do

11 not remember. I was not beaten when I was standing

12 against the wall. I do not know about the others, they

13 were not beating people standing next to me. Then we

14 had to take our belts out, our shoelaces out. I was one

15 of the first and the first seven, I was one of them, who

16 were taken to the manholes. I really do not know what

17 happened later after we left.

18 Q. Yes, sir. What I was asking about was did you have any

19 feel for the demeanour and the mood of most of the

20 soldiers that were there? Did they -- were they

21 shouting at you and threatening you, or were they

22 talking to you in a slow, clear, calm voice? What was

23 the atmosphere?

24 A. For them it was merry. For us it was sad. There were

25 playing Gusle, a national Serb instrument and they told

Page 6977

1 us all kinds of things, I really cannot remember, to be

2 quite honest. But there was mistreatment.

3 Q. The reason I am asking this, sir, is I am going to

4 suggest something to you and maybe you can help me out

5 with this.

6 Let me suggest to you -- let me preface it with

7 this. There has been a lot of testimony from others who

8 were brought in in other groups that when they were

9 standing at that wall they were beaten. Will you accept

10 that from me?

11 A. I did not see, I think not, because I think we were okay

12 compared to others, we people from Brdjani, because

13 no one from my village was really tortured. We did not

14 really give any resistance. We simply surrendered our

15 weapons when we came back from Bradina. I think they

16 were okay towards us, to people from Brdjani. I can

17 only really say just the truth.

18 Q. Yes, sir. What I am suggesting to you is this: I am

19 suggesting to you that Mr. Delic and some of the other

20 guards hustled you away from the wall and put you down

21 the manhole to protect you from other people, to keep

22 you from being beaten. Do you have any indication if

23 that is in fact what happened?

24 A. I have no idea. Maybe. It is possible. I really do

25 not know how to answer this.

Page 6978

1 Q. Let us step ahead. You were taken from the wall to the

2 manhole and you were there for, what, in that manhole,

3 about two hours?

4 A. We were there from noon or 1.00 in the afternoon until

5 7.00 in the evening.

6 Q. Okay, about six hours, give or take a little. When you

7 were brought out of the manhole, were there the same

8 guards that were around when you were up against the

9 wall, were they still there or had they left?

10 A. They came to the command around 7. Delic was there, he

11 told us to go out. He opened the manhole, we all left

12 and we had to put our hands on our heads and then we

13 went to hangar number 6, we had to line up against the

14 wall and then we were taken in in groups of five and he

15 told each one of us exactly where to sit.

16 Q. Yes, sir, but was there that large number of guards

17 there, those guards that were laughing and having a good

18 time when you were up against the wall, or had those

19 people left?

20 A. They were there? What do you mean, where? When they

21 brought us to number 6, is that what you mean.

22 Q. Yes, sir. What I am asking, to cut right to the chase,

23 is this: you have testified that there were a large

24 number of guards when you were up against the wall and

25 that they were kind of making merry.

Page 6979

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Is it not true that what you were --

3 A. Yes, in the manholes, there were six of us or seven of

4 us in the manhole where I was and in the other manholes

5 where other people were, Mirko Zivak and Zelenovic, they

6 cried for help, they had asthma and had not enough air.

7 So the guards took them out later and the rest of us

8 left the manholes at around 7.00. Then all of us

9 gathered together and went to the hangars. The guards

10 were there when we were in manholes.

11 Q. Were they better behaved when you got out than they were

12 when standing against the wall? Behaving more

13 professionally, quieter?

14 A. Yes, they were quiet when we got out.

15 Q. Okay, that was what we were trying to get at.

16 I appreciate it very much your helping me with that.

17 Let me jump forward again a little bit to your

18 interrogation. While you were in the camp, did you ever

19 see or get to know the person who was the camp's driver?

20 A. I know the driver who drove the van, I know him by

21 sight, but I do not know what his name was.

22 Q. If I gave you a name, could that possibly ring a bell?

23 A. It is possible. It might.

24 MR. MORAN: Your Honour, do you want to do this in closed

25 session? The name has been mentioned in public session,

Page 6980

1 it has been mentioned in closed session. Whatever

2 pleases the court.

3 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: We will do it in closed session.

4 MR. MORAN: That is fine, your Honour. Can we go into closed

5 session for about 30 seconds?

6 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Please let us go into closed session.

7 (In closed session)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (In open session)

22 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Okay, we return to open session.

23 MR. MORAN: Okay. Sir, did you see that man when you were

24 taken to be interrogated? Was he one of the people that

25 took you over there?

Page 6981

1 A. I do not know, I do not know who were the people who

2 took us there. I cannot say that. There were some

3 guards.

4 Q. Okay, that is fine. Were your hands tied at any point

5 while you were being interrogated or being led to the

6 interrogation or being led back?

7 A. No.

8 Q. Okay. That is fine, sir. Zeljko Klimenta, his death.

9 When the guard -- after he was shot, you said the guard

10 had said that he did not know the gun was loaded,

11 basically; is that right?

12 A. Yes, that is what the story was.

13 Q. Okay. Did you see him, sir, the guard?

14 A. I saw the guard later. He was there. He was guarding

15 us.

16 Q. The same day?

17 A. Yes, the same day.

18 Q. How long after the shooting was it that you saw him?

19 A. The guards?

20 Q. Yes, sir, Mr. Padalovic.

21 A. I saw him immediately after that when they went out to

22 hose down the blood.

23 Q. Sir, what was his demeanour? Was he crying, was he

24 laughing?

25 A. He was silent.

Page 6982

1 Q. What did he look like, sir? What was his demeanour?

2 Did he look sad, did he look shocked?

3 A. He was not happy. He was not laughing. He was

4 depressed.

5 Q. Okay, that is fine. Thank you very much, sir. Jovo

6 Draganic, his beating. You testified about that. First

7 let me ask you, is he any relative of yours, sir?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. How are you related to him?

10 A. Well, maybe three times removed. It is really very

11 distant relation.

12 Q. Okay. Were you close to him personally? Were you and

13 he close friends? Did you see him a lot before the war?

14 A. I used to see him, but we did not spend much time

15 together because my house was closer to Podorasac than

16 to Brdjani and since I did field work we did not see

17 each other often.

18 Q. That is fine. You testified that he was beaten by

19 Mr. Delic with a baseball bat. Do you recall that maybe

20 30 minutes ago, an hour ago you testified to that?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Who told you it was a baseball bat?

23 A. We saw the bat. He carried the bat with him. It was a

24 yellow bat and it had the word "Turbo" written on it.

25 Nobody told me that, that is what I saw.

Page 6983

1 Q. Sir, the reason I say that is that in your statement to

2 the Office of the Prosecutor you described it as a plank

3 painted yellow as opposed to a baseball bat, and I am

4 curious where the words "baseball bat" got into your

5 vocabulary?

6 A. I used the term "Turbo bat", I just saw the baseball

7 bat. I had never seen such a bat before.

8 Q. Although baseball may be the national sport of my

9 country, I am sure it is not of yours. I can understand

10 why you would not see a baseball bat very often. How

11 hard did Mr. Delic hit your cousin? Was it real hard

12 when he hit him with that baseball bat?

13 A. He hit him outside. He called him out and he beat him

14 there outside. When he left we heard the blows.

15 Q. You do not really know whether it was Mr. Delic or who

16 hit him if it was outside; you did not see it, did you?

17 A. He told me that. I did not see it, because he beat him

18 outside. He told me that.

19 Q. Okay, so the source of your information is your cousin.

20 When you talked to the Prosecutor, the investigator for

21 the Office of the Prosecutor -- strike that, let me back

22 off for a second.

23 You said you could hear the beatings, the blows?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Were they real loud inside? Clearly you could hear

Page 6984

1 them?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Would you agree with me that they were awfully hard

4 blows?

5 A. Yes, of course they were. We changed his clothes and if

6 you will excuse me, he was all wet, so his clothes were

7 changed after he was brought in the hangar, and then

8 later, I saw when his skin started to peel off. That is

9 what I saw with my own eyes. I did not see the beating,

10 but I heard it.

11 Q. Sir, about how long -- I know you did not have a watch

12 so you cannot tell me exactly, but about how long did it

13 take for this beating?

14 A. For a long time. It is an eternity. Maybe 20 minutes,

15 half an hour.

16 Q. Okay. What parts of his body were bruised when you saw

17 him?

18 A. From this part downwards (indicates). From the belt

19 down, from the waist down.

20 Q. So it was both of his legs, his back, all over the

21 entire lower part of his body from his belt down?

22 A. Yes, all over.

23 Q. You told the Office of the Prosecutor's investigator

24 that he was hit about 170 times, that is 170. Do you

25 recall that?

Page 6985

1 A. I do not know whether it was 170 times. When you are

2 expecting something, it seems like an eternity. He said

3 himself that he was hit that many times.

4 Q. Okay. You heard the hits?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. So would 170 to 200 hits be an approximate number?

7 A. Not 200, maybe 170.

8 MR. MORAN: 170, just like he told the investigator for the

9 Office of the Prosecutor.

10 Your Honour, somewhere we have in evidence a

11 baseball bat. I would like to show it to the witness,

12 unless it is still back in a closet some place. It is a

13 Delic exhibit. (Handed). Sir, does that look something

14 like what you saw?

15 A. Yes, it is similar to this one, the bat was similar to

16 this one, only it was wider and yellow and it tapered

17 off and it had the word "Turbo" written on it. Whether

18 it was of hard metal or of some other material I do not

19 know, because I never held it in my hands. It just had

20 the word "Turbo" written on it.

21 Q. That is Delic exhibit -- I believe 9.

22 THE REGISTRAR: It is D6/3.

23 MR. MORAN: Okay. That is all we need with the bat. Thank

24 you very much.

25 Sir, I am still troubled with the fact that when

Page 6986

1 you talked to the Prosecutor you described that object

2 as a plank and now you are describing it as a baseball

3 bat, because like you said, you had never seen a

4 baseball bat presumably before today; is that right?

5 A. No, I saw it then, and I said that he beat Bosko

6 Samoukovic with a plank. I did not say that for Jovo

7 Draganic. I used the words "baseball bat".

8 Q. Sir, have you talked to -- who have you talked to about

9 your testimony here today?

10 A. No one.

11 Q. No one? Let us go back in time. Before you got on the

12 stand, I guess it was last Thursday, since you have

13 gotten to The Hague have you talked to anybody from the

14 Prosecutor's office, perhaps Mr. Turone, that nice

15 gentleman that was asking you questions. Did you ever

16 talk to him about your testimony here?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Okay, so you talked to him. About how long was that

19 conversation?

20 A. Three or four hours.

21 Q. Okay besides Mr. Turone, and I presume an interpreter,

22 was there anyone else present during that conversation?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Who was that, do you recall?

25 A. I do not know what that person's name is.

Page 6987

1 Q. Okay. You just had that one conversation with him,

2 what, last week?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. And you have not talked to him about the case since

5 then?

6 A. No.

7 Q. And those three people, Mr. Turone, the interpreter and

8 whoever that other person was are the only three people

9 in The Hague that you have talked to about your

10 testimony?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Before you came to The Hague, who did you talk to about

13 your testimony here today?

14 A. I talked to Desa Vokmen. She invited me to come here.

15 Q. Who is she, sir?

16 A. Desa Vokmen, that is her name.

17 Q. Is she associated with any groups, for instance, the

18 Association of Detainees in Belgrade?

19 A. I honestly do not know, because I am not a member of the

20 association, so I cannot talk about that.

21 Q. But she talked to you about your testimony here. Who

22 else was --

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. How long was that conversation?

25 A. She just asked me whether I would be prepared to

Page 6988

1 testify, I said I would, and this is what it all boiled

2 down to.

3 Q. That was before or after you talked to the Prosecutor's

4 investigator?

5 A. That was before I came here.

6 Q. Okay. Was it before or after February 1996, if you

7 recall?

8 A. What do you mean, the conversation with whom? In

9 February 1996, I went to Timosvara to give a statement

10 there.

11 Q. That is right. Was this conversation with this woman

12 before or after you went to Timosvara?

13 A. I spoke to that woman, I got in touch with her just

14 before I came here, maybe it was in May.

15 Q. Okay. You called her or she called you?

16 A. She called me.

17 Q. You talked to her about what your testimony and the

18 facts were going to be, what you knew about the case?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Did she tell you what any of the other witnesses had

21 said?

22 A. No.

23 Q. Did she help prepare you for your testimony, telling you

24 what kinds of questions may be asked or what the

25 courtroom looks like or anything like that?

Page 6989

1 A. Nothing. She did not tell me anything. We just spoke

2 on the phone.

3 Q. Was the conversation about "I am going to go to

4 The Hague" or "I want you to go to The Hague and here is

5 where your plane tickets will be", or did you talk about

6 the substance of your testimony?

7 A. Nothing, she just told me where to pick up my ticket and

8 how to get here.

9 Q. She told you that back in May of this year, about four

10 months ago?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Okay. You did not talk to anyone about this case

13 between that conversation with this woman back in May

14 and your conversation with Mr. Turone after you got to

15 The Hague; is that right?

16 A. No, that is correct.

17 Q. Okay. Let us step back. Before that conversation with

18 this woman back in May, did you have any other

19 conversations with anyone about your testimony here?

20 A. No.

21 Q. How about an investigator for the Office of the

22 Prosecutor over in Timosvara, over in Romania. Did you

23 have a conversation with that person?

24 A. No.

25 Q. So you never talked to --

Page 6990

1 A. Excuse me, who did I talk to?

2 Q. An investigator for the Office of the Prosecutor, a man

3 whose name looks like he is an oriental man?

4 A. Timosvara, I did talk to him.

5 Q. Yes. Let me step back to that woman. Where was she

6 calling you from, do you know, that woman you had the

7 conversation with?

8 (redacted)

9 Q. Okay, so she is -- does the phrase Serbian Woman's

10 Congress mean anything to you?

11 A. I have never heard of that.

12 Q. Okay, that is fine. How long was the conversation?

13 A. You mean on the phone?

14 Q. Did you meet her in person and talk to her on the

15 telephone, or did you just talk to her on the phone?

16 A. I just talked to her on the phone. I do not know that

17 woman. We just spoke on the phone.

18 Q. Do you know how she found out who you are and where you

19 are?

20 A. She heard about me because this tragedy happened to me,

21 this is what I stated in Timosvara. If possible

22 I wanted to talk about that, I wanted to say about my

23 family, because my neighbours killed my sister-in-law,

24 my wife and my father and I had been through many things

25 and that is why she called me to come here.

Page 6991

1 Q. Okay. What I am trying to get at, sir, is, until I saw

2 your name on a witness list, I did not know you

3 existed. How did she know that you existed, that you

4 even knew anything about this case? Do you know?

5 A. Probably she had to know about me because I had given a

6 statement in Timosvara.

7 Q. Did she indicate to you that she knew what was in your

8 statement that you gave at Timosvara?

9 A. No, she did not say that.

10 Q. When she was talking, did it sound like she knew what

11 was in your statement in Timosvara?

12 A. I have no idea. She probably knew, but she did not say

13 anything to me, she just told me how to come here.

14 Q. Okay. Did you have any conversations other than with

15 Mr. Fujiwara and Ms. Vokmen, I believe it is

16 (redacted)

17 (redascted) Did you have any other conversations with

18 anybody about your testimony here?

19 A. No.

20 Q. But you were invited to Timosvara by somebody. I am

21 sure you did not just go vacationing in Romania?

22 A. I was invited by Dordic, Milica Dordic, whatever her

23 name was, in Belgrade to go to Timosvara to give a

24 statement there. Dordic Mila, that was her name. Maybe

25 you are familiar with that name.

Page 6992

1 Q. Yes, sir. Is she involved with the Association of

2 Detainees, do you know, in Belgrade?

3 A. She probably does work for them.

4 Q. Okay. Did you talk to her about what you know about

5 this case, or anybody from her organisation?

6 A. We talked and she also went with us to Timosvara and she

7 said "tell them everything you know, everything you have

8 seen. Do not tell them anything else".

9 Q. Did you give her a statement, a written statement?

10 A. Timosvara?

11 Q. No, the woman from Belgrade. Did you give her a written

12 statement before you went to Timosvara?

13 A. No, I did not.

14 Q. Did you talk to her after you gave the statement to

15 Mr. Fujiwara at Timosvara about the contents of your

16 statement?

17 A. No, I did not even see her.

18 Q. Okay. Did she tell you how the Association of Detainees

19 knew who you are or where you were, since you are not a

20 member of that organisation? Did she tell you how they

21 found you?

22 A. It was all through friends, because we all mostly knew

23 about each other, where people were. I told them about

24 somebody and then somebody told them about me and so on.

25 Q. Okay. Was there anybody before that that you talked to

Page 6993

1 about your testimony?

2 A. No.

3 MR. MORAN: Your Honour, looking at the clock, it is 12.57.

4 I think I am done, but I would sure appreciate if we

5 broke early and let me think about it over the lunch

6 break.

7 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: You are still hanging on until we

8 resume at 2.30.

9 MR. MORAN: Yes, your Honour. I may very well just pass the

10 witness, but if you could give me the lunch break to

11 think about it, I would appreciate it.

12 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Yes, I think we will break now, if you

13 are continuing, you might continue after we resume.

14 MR. MORAN: Yes, your Honour. I appreciate that very much.

15 Thank you very much, your Honour.

16 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: The Trial Chamber will have a break now

17 and resume at 2.30.

18 (1.00 pm)

19 (Adjourned until 2.30 pm)

20

21

22

23

24

25

Page 6994

1 (2.30 pm)

2 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: You may proceed, Mr. Moran.

3 MR. MORAN: Thank you, your Honour. Good afternoon again,

4 sir.

5 A. Good afternoon.

6 Q. I hope you had a good lunch and feel a little relaxed.

7 I think I will be fairly short with you and we will get

8 you back about the rest of your life.

9 Let me jump to another topic, one we have not

10 talked about.

11 A. Thank you.

12 Q. That incident you described with the two brothers having

13 performed oral sex acts on each other.

14 A. Yes, in the hangar, Zenga and Delic came and then these

15 two Dordic brothers, Zenga was beating them and Delic

16 was sitting there watching. Then Zenga in front of all

17 of us forced the two brothers to -- I do not know how to

18 put it, their sex organs.

19 Q. I am not asking you in that kind of detail. What I am

20 going to ask you is this, sir. Vaso Dordic testified

21 about this also in open session in the same chair you

22 are sitting in. His testimony about that is on

23 pages 4360 and 4361 of the transcript, okay? In that

24 testimony, he never mentioned that Mr. Delic was there or

25 involved with it in any way. My question to you is,

Page 6995

1 sir --

2 A. He was there, I know that and I am certain about that.

3 Q. So Mr. Djordjic just did not notice it, is that your

4 position, sir?

5 A. Maybe he did not notice that in his fear, but I know

6 that, I saw it with my own eyes. I was there and

7 I would not have said it unless I had seen it.

8 Q. Okay, sir. If you would like, I could read or have read

9 to you or give you in English, I am afraid I do not have

10 a Serbian transcript, copies of exactly what Mr. Dordic

11 testified to here.

12 A. I do not know, to be honest. The only thing I am

13 interested in is what I have seen myself and that is

14 what I am saying here, only the truth. I am not

15 interested in anything else. Maybe he did not notice

16 that, but I did see it and I would not have said it

17 unless I had seen it myself.

18 Q. Okay, sir. So Mr. Djordjic did not notice everything

19 while this was occurring?

20 MR. TURONE: Objection, your Honour. Asked and answered.

21 A. I am certain.

22 MR. MORAN: Okay, fine. Let us go on to another subject,

23 sir. Slobodan Zelenovic; do you know him, sir?

24 A. Yes, I know him.

25 Q. Did he have a weapon, sir? If so, what kind?

Page 6996

1 A. I think he had a M48 rifle, as far as I can remember.

2 Q. The same kind that you had.

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Do you know if he used it at all, if he discharged that

5 weapon, fired it at all?

6 A. I do not think so. As far as I know, he did not.

7 Q. Okay. Sir, you were released directly from the Celebici

8 camp; is that not right?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Okay. Do you know whether Mr. Delic helped arrange for

11 your release?

12 A. Well I do not know. As I said, Delic only hit me once,

13 he left me alone. On that day, 31st August 1992, at the

14 end of the day, he came, he went from one to the other

15 in the hangar, he reached me. I got up and I said,

16 "yes, Mr. Commander" and he said, "let me see your

17 category". He looked at a list and then he told me, he

18 whispered to me, "you are going home tonight". That is

19 what happened. Towards the end of the day or evening,

20 it was about 10.00 in the evening, they came to pick us

21 up in a van and they wrote down on a certificate that

22 they were releasing us to go home. We had freedom of

23 movement only within the village. Then they drove us to

24 Podorasac, there were I do not know how many people, 20,

25 I do not know and we went back to our homes.

Page 6997

1 Q. In fact, is it not true that the word in your village

2 was that Mr. Delic had helped a lot of people get

3 released?

4 A. To be honest, I do not know. It is possible that he

5 did. I was between Podorasac and Brdjani, my house and

6 my late brother's house were a bit isolated. Maybe,

7 probably yes, I do not want to deny that, but I do not

8 know. I simply did not hear that myself.

9 MR. MORAN: Okay, that is fine, sir. Your Honour, I will

10 pass the witness.

11 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Any further cross-examination?

12 MS. McMURREY: May it please the court?

13 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Yes, you may proceed.

14 Cross-examined by MS. McMURREY

15 Q. Thank you. Dobardan, Mr. Draganic.

16 A. Good afternoon.

17 Q. My name is Cynthia McMurrey and I am Defence attorney

18 for Esad Landzo. I know the Prosecution has already

19 discussed this with you, but if we can have an

20 agreement, I know Mr. Turone has prefaced most of his

21 questions with "just tell us what you have personally

22 seen and personally experienced" and I know that you

23 have done that so far, but I want the agreement that you

24 will only testify and give evidence in this court about

25 what you personally saw; do we have an agreement on

Page 6998

1 that?

2 A. That is what I am testifying to, only things that I saw

3 myself. I am not saying anything that I did not see

4 myself.

5 Q. Thank you. I want to go back a little bit to some

6 things that Mr. Moran had asked you earlier, and I know

7 you testified that at first you had not spoken -- first

8 of all I want to go back. At your break just then, did

9 you talk to anybody with the Office of the Prosecutor

10 about your testimony?

11 A. You mean now? No.

12 Q. Yes, I mean when we had our lunch break.

13 A. No.

14 Q. Thank you. Another thing you said earlier today was

15 that you were invited by Ms. Mila Dordic of the

16 Association of Detainees in Belgrade to Timosvara. You

17 said that she found out about you by word of mouth by

18 the friends that you had talked to; is that correct?

19 A. That is correct.

20 Q. These friends that you have talked to, when you were

21 back in your home town and back in Konjic, in the Konjic

22 area, you all talked about your experiences in Celebici,

23 did you not?

24 A. Naturally, we talked about everything. We talked about

25 things that we had gone through, things that we had

Page 6999

1 experienced. Yes.

2 Q. Thank you very much. I think you said you were a

3 construction worker and you said several times that you

4 were -- I forgot the term you used, when you say that

5 you did not work on site, you were out of the country on

6 your work during that time before 1992? I know you were

7 in Libya, but did you go other places to work also?

8 A. I had worked in Iraq and all over Yugoslavia.

9 Q. You also said that when you came back in April 1992, you

10 first came to Belgrade. Was that the place where the

11 company that you worked for was located?

12 A. When I came back to Belgrade from Libya my sister-in-law

13 was there and I spent a day there. I took a train in

14 the evening, via Montenegro and Nevesinje, and I arrived

15 to Borci, and there were some who had already left

16 Konjic, and they told me not to go to the village

17 because there was a war. I could not believe that that

18 was true.

19 I arrived to Bjela, my wife was from Bjela, she

20 was staying with my father-in-law, and at that moment a

21 man came from Konjic. He had his own fast food shop, he

22 was of my age, I could not remember his name. He was

23 looking for keys from a man named Boro Jakovljevic, and

24 I asked him, "Can I go to Konjic with you?", and the man

25 said, "Yes, you can", and naturally I went to his car,

Page 7000

1 and there were already the green berets at the entrance

2 to Konjic, and nobody really stopped me or asked me

3 anything.

4 I came to the exit from Konjic with him, to the

5 post office. Then I hitchhiked, and a neighbour of

6 mine, a Croat, named Juric Zvonko or something, I really

7 do not know, I cannot remember, we used to call him

8 Civala, he drove past with a Mercedes. He stopped,

9 asked me if I wanted to go up. I said yes, so I went

10 with him and I arrived home and there were no problems.

11 That was 28th April.

12 Q. Thank you, Mr. Draganic. I want to go back -- you said

13 you went through Montenegro to Borci. Borci is the

14 location outside of Konjic where the JNA had set up

15 their shelling location, was it not?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. You also are good friends with Slobodan Zelenovic; he is

18 from your village, is he not?

19 A. Yes.

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 7001

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 A. No.

4 Q. Thank you.

5 A. No, we have not even spoken at all.

6 Q. Thank you. In your village, there was an anti-aircraft

7 gun that was brought in from Gorazde, is that correct,

8 or do you know that?

9 A. That I do not know. I honestly do not know. I do not

10 think it was there. Maybe it was, but I do not know

11 about it.

12 Q. I am jumping around again. I want to go back to

13 something you said earlier, that the lady from San

14 Francisco in the United States, Desa Vokmen. When she

15 called you, did she tell you how she got your name?

16 A. She told me that she had been informed by Nedeljko

17 Draganic who had been a witness here.

18 Q. So she had spoken to Nedeljko Draganic?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Did she say whether she had spoken to him before or

21 after he testified here in court?

22 A. She did not tell me whether it was before or after.

23 I do not know.

24 Q. You also stated earlier that you have talked to other

25 people that have testified here. Who were those other

Page 7002

1 people that you have spoken to?

2 A. No, I spoke to Milenko, to Dragan Kuljanin, to those two

3 people. Those are the ones I have spoken to, not with

4 anybody else. They were the ones who were here.

5 Q. I did not understand which Kuljanin it was who you spoke

6 to. Can you repeat that for me?

7 A. Dragan Kuljanin and Milenko Kuljanin.

8 Q. Milenko Kuljanin, is that Mici?

9 A. No.

10 Q. Have you seen Mici Kuljanin since you have been here in

11 The Hague?

12 A. Yes, I have. I have seen him.

13 Q. Have you discussed anything that has gone on in the

14 courtroom with him?

15 A. No, we did not talk about that at all.

16 Q. Okay. Now I want to go back to where I lift, since I am

17 jumping around, we were talking about Borci a while

18 ago. You said that you had gone through Borci to get

19 back to your home. Can you just tell me the date that

20 you arrived in Borci? I know it was in April, but April

21 what?

22 A. I arrived to Borci on 27th April in the morning, and

23 when I arrived there to Borci, I had no transport and

24 then in the morning, there were women leaving Borci for

25 Konjic and I went with them and I reached Bjela.

Page 7003

1 I arrived home on 28th April 1992, in the am.

2 Q. From Borci --

3 MR. TURONE: I beg your pardon, sorry for interrupting.

4 There is a matter for redaction and we should go to

5 private session just to talk for one minute about that,

6 please.

7 MS. McMURREY: May we go to private session, your Honour?

8 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Yes, let us go to private session. Let

9 us hear what the subject matter is.

10 (In closed session)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Yes, we will return to public session.

25 (In open session)

Page 7004

1 MS. McMURREY: May I continue?

2 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Yes, you may.

3 MS. McMURREY: Thank you. Going back to Borci again,

4 I know how you got to your home town, but I would just

5 like to ask, when you are in Borci, do you know how far

6 it is from Borci to Konjic? Can you estimate what the

7 distance is?

8 A. From the lake to Konjic it is actually 21 kilometres.

9 Q. Thank you. When you went through Borci, were you able

10 to see or do you know what kind of JNA forces were

11 organised there? Had they occupied the area? Did you

12 see armed personnel carriers around?

13 A. Let me tell you, I did not see anything myself. The

14 only thing was as I was leaving with these women at

15 Vrapce, there were people, some were wearing military

16 uniforms, some were wearing civilian clothing, but

17 I really did not see any considerable military

18 formations along the path that I took.

19 Q. Thank you. In your testimony earlier on Thursday,

20 I believe you did state that it was a well known fact

21 that everybody in Brdjani already had weapons; is that

22 not true?

23 A. That is no secret, that was so, but nobody picked up the

24 weapons. We all said that this would not happen, that a

25 neighbour would not attack a neighbour, everybody would

Page 7005

1 defend their homes, but things that were not supposed to

2 happen, things that were not necessary, happened, but

3 now it is too late and what is there is there. I have

4 nothing else to say.

5 Q. One of the horrible things that happened that was not

6 supposed to happen was your good friend, Agan Ramic, who

7 you also worked with, he was one of the ones who harmed

8 you most during this ordeal, did he not?

9 A. That is correct, and also I want to tell you that I am

10 very sorry that that is so. I did not deserve that;

11 neither I nor my late father, nor my late wife, nor my

12 brother, nor my sister-in-law. He used to visit my

13 home, I used to visit him. We used to have huts in the

14 mountains. His parents used to go there. We used to

15 visit each other. We were always good friends.

16 I really do not know why that man bore such grudge

17 against me. He took my car, he drove it away. All the

18 things that he did, I really, as we say where I come

19 from, halal, we do not mind, but he came to my home. He

20 killed my father, my sister-in-law; that is inhumane. A

21 normal person cannot do that. I lost four of my family

22 members and I still have nothing against Muslims. I am

23 not a nationalist. I love every human being provided it

24 is a good human being. But what Agan did to me, I will

25 never be able to forget or forgive that. I do not know

Page 7006

1 why he did that. Fortunately I was not with my children

2 at the time. My father saved them. He came to my home

3 on 26th January in the evening. He said "Rajko, your

4 mother came and told you, go to the village, take your

5 children. I will stay with the in-laws". I did,

6 I stayed in the village overnight. I went back and

7 I saw the sight and I really do not understand how

8 I preserved my state of mind. I have children left,

9 I have lost my mother, I have lost so many relatives,

10 I have lost my house, I saved my children. That really

11 is tragic and I really do not know how to describe that

12 to you. Just horrible. I did go to the village after

13 that, in the morning, when I came, I had a friend who

14 was a Croat, my neighbour, Ivica Petrovic, he was the

15 director in the Monter company in Konjic. I went to his

16 house in the morning, his wife had got up and she said;

17 Rajko, do sit up, and I said; Maria, everybody has been

18 killed in my home and Ivica got up, he had been with

19 HVO. He got ready, the commission came --

20 Q. I am sorry, Mr. Draganic and I do want to express the

21 concern and the condolences of everybody in this

22 courtroom. I understand what kind of pain you have

23 suffered, and not only with your friend Mr. Ramic, but

24 also with your family and there is no way to explain

25 what happens to people. Would a good explanation be

Page 7007

1 that war turns people into other kinds of animals?

2 A. That is true. That is so.

3 Q. This horrible fate that has befallen you is because a

4 war was going on that you did not have anything to do

5 with; is that right?

6 A. Nothing whatsoever to do with it. I was not into

7 politics in any way.

8 Q. I want to go back to Mr. Ramic. You surrendered your

9 weapon to Agan Ramic, did you not?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. It was Agan Ramic, your good friend, that sent you to

12 Celebici, was it not?

13 A. Yes. Maybe it was ordered from the other side, but he

14 came to pick us up and he told us that.

15 Q. I want to go forward to your testimony about when you

16 were placed in these manholes. I believe that your

17 testimony was that you were able to breathe because the

18 lids on this manhole did not fit tightly; is that

19 correct?

20 A. Yes, that is correct.

21 Q. I do not know if the Prosecution exhibit is still over

22 there, exhibit number 174, I think -- is that the one

23 where you marked locations? Mr. Usher, would you please

24 put that on the ELMO for me. (Handed). Can we see the

25 whole picture? Yes.

Page 7008

1 The first mark where you put number 1, the X over

2 on the right side, I just want to make it clear, that

3 was your position where you sat most of the time that

4 you were in Celebici until right before you left at the

5 end of August.

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Then you were moved to the --

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Thank you. So over there, we see that Spaso Miljevic

10 and Mirko Babic were pretty far away from you from that

11 point, were they not?

12 A. Yes, but Mirko Babic was in the same row.

13 Q. That is what I wanted to clear up, too. The row that

14 you have Mr. Miljevic in, is that row 1 or 2?

15 A. Row 2, Miljevic was in this row here (indicates).

16 Q. So that means that row 1 was up against the wall that

17 the door is on, is that what we are saying?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. So we have row 1 which is on the wall where the door is,

20 row 2 is where Miljevic is and row 3 is where Mirko

21 Babic is. Then the fourth row is all the way across the

22 back row; is that right?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Thank you. I just wanted to make that clear.

25 A. Yes, that is right.

Page 7009

1 Q. Thank you very much. Several times today and yesterday

2 you talked about people being called out by Zenga. The

3 truth is, Zenga did not come into the hangar most of the

4 time, did he? You just heard a voice, did you not?

5 A. He entered all the time. He entered the hangar all the

6 time.

7 Q. But when people were called out of the hangar at night,

8 you did not see the person calling, you just heard a

9 voice, did you not?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. There were a lot of young guards there at Celebici, were

12 there not?

13 A. Yes, there were.

14 Q. You do not know the voices of all the young guards, do

15 you?

16 A. I know that he was the main torturer and he was involved

17 in all the tortures and killings. I do not know who

18 ordered him to do that, but he did all that.

19 Q. I want to go to your comments about Simo Jovanovic. You

20 know that Mr. Jovanovic was a wealthy man from Celebici,

21 was he not?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. In fact he had some kind of fish farm, did he not?

24 A. Yes, he did. I heard about that. I did not see it, but

25 that is what I heard. He was a manager in a

Page 7010

1 construction company in Konjic or something.

2 Q. You know that when he was beaten in Celebici, his

3 neighbours from Celebici were the ones who came into the

4 camp and beat him, is that not right?

5 A. I do not know. He was called out by Zenga, he was led

6 out that night. Three days before that he was not

7 beaten and then he was called out and that is when he

8 died. I do not know who beat him but Zenga was the one

9 who called him out.

10 Q. Thank you. You also talked about Zeljko Klimenta.

11 I know that Mr. Moran had already asked you a couple of

12 questions about this guard named Padalovic, but you did

13 know that Zeljko or Kelo or Mr. Klimenta was killed

14 accidently, do you not?

15 A. That is what was being said. Whether it was accidental

16 or not I do not know, but that is what the story was.

17 Q. In fact you heard that that guard was crying when this

18 happened, did you not?

19 A. I did not see him cry, I saw that he was not in a very

20 good mood, he was silent and he looked sad.

21 Q. Thank you. I want to go to Mirko Babic too. You said

22 earlier today that you personally saw Mirko Babic --

23 A. Yes, I did see it. Because he sat in the same row where

24 I was sitting, he was sitting here (indicates). I saw

25 it when he beat him and then he set his trousers on

Page 7011

1 fire. They were very thick trousers and they burnt

2 well. The burn was caused and I do not know who put the

3 fire out, but at any rate, there was a large wound in

4 his lower leg.

5 Q. So if Mirko Babic testified in March that he was taken

6 outside and that this incident occurred outside, he

7 would be not telling the truth; is that correct?

8 A. I do not know, I think I am not mistaken because I was

9 able to see that. He was taken out, but this is where

10 he was set on fire. He was taken out on other

11 occasions. This is what I saw. I do not know what he

12 had said, but I am saying what I saw.

13 Q. (redacted) said that the knife was heated and

14 placed on him outside the hangar near a shepherd, then

15 he would not be telling the truth either, would he?

16 A. I do not know. That is what I saw with my own eyes when

17 he heated up the knife and when he was forced to hold

18 it. This is what I saw with my own eyes. I do not know

19 what the other people had said.

20 MS. McMURREY: Your Honours, may I just have one second?

21 (Pause). Mr. Draganic, I want to, one more time, express

22 our condolences for all the pain you suffered during

23 this war. I thank you for your answers.

24 A. Thank you very much. I am really grateful to this

25 Tribunal for letting me tell you all of this, because

Page 7012

1 I believe that there will be justice and that everybody

2 deserves justice regardless of his or her religion or

3 nation. Thank you. I think I will feel better now

4 I have been able to tell you all about this.

5 MS. McMURREY: I pass the witness, your Honour.

6 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Thank you very much. Any

7 re-examination?

8 MR. TURONE: There is no questions for re-examination, your

9 Honour, but I am sorry, there is another matter of

10 redaction, so we have to enter into private session

11 again, please.

12 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Would you kindly go into closed session

13 so that --

14 MR. GREAVES: Is this one which requires the witness to be

15 present?

16 (In closed session)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 7013

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: You are discharged.

20 (The witness withdrew)

21 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: We can now go into open session.

22 (In open session)

23 JUDGE JAN: Mr. Turone, just a minute. While you were

24 examining the witness, you took the names of these

25 witnesses about what happened to him in his sight. The

Page 7014

1 names that are already there, you want redaction on them

2 also?

3 MR. TURONE: Our concern is that --

4 JUDGE JAN: Only the examination-in-chief or

5 cross-examination also, because when you were asking the

6 witness, "What did you see happening to that particular

7 witness", you gave the name.

8 MR. TURONE: No, the fact to be redacted is that a witness is

9 mentioned as a witness. We never said that the given

10 person was a witness in this room. This is the issue

11 for which redaction is requested, your Honour.

12 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: I suppose the problem is whether you

13 refer to the name of this witness in the

14 examination-in-chief. I did not hear it that way, but

15 I do not know in what circumstances you might have

16 referred to him.

17 MR. TURONE: The circumstance is the fact that a given person

18 gave testimony in this courtroom, not the fact itself

19 that a given person was in the camp and was a victim.

20 So we are requesting redaction only when it comes out

21 that a given protected person gave evidence in this

22 room, a given protected witness gave evidence in this

23 courtroom.

24 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: The risk of mentioning the name itself

25 might make the person identifiable. That is a

Page 7015

1 protection which the Tribunal is giving to a witness.

2 The persons named should not be mentioned in connection

3 with the trial.

4 MR. TURONE: Exactly, your Honour, not in connection with the

5 fact that he was a witness.

6 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: That leaves a danger of identifying the

7 person within the trial, whether he was a witness or

8 not.

9 MS. McMURREY: Your Honour, if I might just respond

10 briefly, what happens is by them mentioning the name in

11 direct and talking about the facts of the situation, and

12 then by having us not able to mention the name in

13 cross-examination, it limits us and hinders and

14 effectively causes us to have infective

15 cross-examination. They are able to mention the name

16 because we cannot mention his prior testimony for

17 impeachment and we are limited in our

18 cross-examination. I think it is unfair to our clients,

19 to the accused, to not be able to cross-examine after

20 they have mentioned all of these facts and be able to

21 compare them to his testimony that he gave in this

22 court.

23 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: I suppose you have a leeway in having a

24 closed session and referring to it.

25 MS. McMURREY: You are right.

Page 7016

1 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Referring to it in closed session.

2 MR. TURONE: This is exactly what we intended, thank you.

3 MR. ACKERMAN: I need to enlarge on that problem. If the

4 Prosecution can elicit publicly information with regard

5 to a particular individual and then we are required

6 because we might want to refer to some prior testimony

7 of that individual to do it all in closed session, what

8 goes out in the public is then a lopsided story.

9 I think the more proper way to do it would be if it is a

10 person who was a protected witness in this court, then

11 the Prosecutor also do their direct in closed session so

12 that the lopsided nature of that does not appear out in

13 the public as kind of an unfair reflection of what is

14 going on in the courtroom. That is the problem,

15 I think.

16 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: I agree entirely with you. That was

17 what I was getting across. If you know that a witness

18 ought to be protected, do not mention the name.

19 MR. NIEMANN: We will proceed in that way, your Honour, in

20 future.

21 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: I think so. Can we have your witness?

22 MR. NIEMANN: Yes, your Honour. We call Milovan Kuljanin.

23 JUDGE JAN: Just a matter before the witness comes in.

24 Mr. Niemann, today I got a list of the witnesses you

25 intend to examine. That list has come out in the office

Page 7017

1 and I do not know how far it would stand protected from

2 the public. I was not interested in seeing the list but

3 I still got a copy. It was lying on my table when I saw

4 it. The list can come out. It is all over the Tribunal

5 now.

6 MR. NIEMANN: I was not aware that had happened to it your

7 Honour. I will make enquiries to prevent it happening

8 again.

9 JUDGE JAN: We had a very heated debate a few months ago.

10 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, your Honour, please.

11 JUDGE JAN: -- can be dangerous in one sense.

12 MR. NIEMANN: I do not know how that happened, your Honour.

13 I will find out. I need to make enquiries.

14 (Witness entered court)

15 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Kindly swear the witness.

16 MILOVAN KULJANIN (sworn)

17 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: You may sit down, please.

18 A. Thank you.

19 Examined by MR. NIEMANN

20 Q. Would you please state your full name?

21 A. Milovan Kuljanin.

22 Q. Do you have a nickname, a name that you are known by

23 among your friends and associates?

24 A. Mici.

25 Q. Where were you born?

Page 7018

1 A. In the village of Blace, municipality of Konjic.

2 Q. What is your date of birth?

3 A. 15th March 1970.

4 Q. How far did you go with your schooling?

5 A. I graduated from the high school for catering.

6 Q. What is your ethnic background?

7 A. I did not understand the question.

8 Q. What is your ethnic background?

9 A. I am orthodox.

10 Q. At the beginning of 1992, where were you living --

11 MR. GREAVES: He answered his religion rather than his ethnic

12 background.

13 JUDGE JAN: Ask him whether he is a Croat, Serb or a Muslim.

14 MR. NIEMANN: I will lead your Honour, yes.

15 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: There is no problem in leading in that

16 sense.

17 MR. NIEMANN: I normally expect objections if I lead. Is

18 your ethnic background Serbian?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. In the beginning of 1992, where were you living?

21 A. I was living in Mostar until mid March, and then later

22 I lived in Konjic.

23 Q. What was your employment at the beginning of 1992?

24 A. I was in the reserve forces of the Yugoslav National

25 Army.

Page 7019

1 Q. Was that at Mostar?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Where were you employed prior to being in the reserve of

4 the army?

5 A. I was serving, doing the national service in the

6 Yugoslav People's Army in 1990 to 1991.

7 Q. Thank you. When did you leave Mostar?

8 A. In mid March.

9 Q. Where did you go then?

10 A. To Konjic, to my home.

11 Q. What did you do then between March and the beginning of

12 the war, the commencement of the war?

13 A. Nothing.

14 Q. Around the beginning of June 1992, did you attempt to

15 leave Konjic?

16 A. No, I just moved to Donje Selo.

17 Q. Can you explain what happened when you moved to Donje

18 Selo?

19 A. Nothing -- well I went there for safety reasons.

20 Q. How long did you stay in Donje Selo?

21 A. Until I was arrested and taken to Celebici.

22 Q. Who arrested you? How is it that you came about to be

23 arrested? What were the circumstances of that?

24 A. I can explain that. We were in Miro Golubovic's weekend

25 house and Darko Verkic came to pick us up with 8 or 10

Page 7020

1 HVO policemen and then we were brought in for an

2 interview to Celebici barracks, which was then the

3 barracks.

4 Q. Why did Darko Verkic come to Donje Selo?

5 A. I think it was within his area of responsibility.

6 Q. How were you taken to Celebici?

7 A. In a van, it was a Volkswagen van.

8 Q. Who took us to Celebici?

9 A. As I already said, it was Darko Verkic with his police

10 officers.

11 Q. Before you were taken to Celebici, did you have any

12 weapons in your possession?

13 A. Yes, I had a pistol, a 7.62 calibre.

14 Q. And where did you obtain that from?

15 A. It was my private property.

16 Q. Apart from the pistol, did you have any other weapons at

17 your disposal?

18 A. No.

19 Q. When you were taken to the Celebici camp, what happened

20 when you arrived there?

21 A. We parked in front of building number 22 and we stayed

22 there for about 5 or 10 minutes, I do not know exactly

23 for how long and then we were moved to manholes.

24 Q. When you arrived at the camp, was there anybody there

25 that you recognised?

Page 7021

1 A. Yes, most of them.

2 Q. Could you tell us the names of the people that you

3 recognised that you saw, that you recognised when you

4 first arrived, that very first occasion when you arrived

5 at the camp?

6 A. Yes. Muhamed Corovic, Esad Landzo, Edhem Jeliskovic,

7 Edin Spago, and many others. Hazim Delic.

8 Q. Did you see all of these people when you first arrived

9 or did you see them, some of them then and then others

10 later?

11 A. Yes, then, when I arrived.

12 Q. I think you said a moment ago that you were then taken

13 to a manhole; is that correct?

14 A. Yes, but before that, when I had just arrived, I said

15 that I was there in front of building number 22 for

16 maybe about 10 minutes.

17 Q. Did anything happen to you when you were standing there

18 in front of room number 22?

19 A. Nothing special, but Ismet Hebibovic at one time came

20 into the van in which we were and he started beating us.

21 Q. What was he beating you with?

22 A. He did not beat me. He tried to. Darko Verkic

23 prevented that. He did not allow him to enter the van

24 actually.

25 Q. You say you were taken to the manhole. Who took you to

Page 7022

1 the manhole?

2 A. It was Darko Verkic and Hazim Delic and a couple of

3 other people, police officers whom I did not know.

4 Q. Where is the manhole in the camp that you were taken to?

5 A. Where do you want me to show it?

6 Q. Yes, I am going to ask you to show it in a moment but

7 I would like you to try and describe it generally for me

8 first, if you would, please.

9 A. It is maybe about 200 metres away from the reception

10 building.

11 Q. Thank you. I would like now to stand up if you would

12 and walk around to the front of the model that there is

13 in front of you and before you move, you will need to

14 listen to my instructions because the moment you take

15 your headphones off you will not understand me. When

16 you move around to the front of the model, you may be

17 given a headset with a longer extension over here, and

18 I am going to ask you to point to where the manhole is

19 in the camp, if you would. Can you move to the front?

20 A. All right.

21 Q. Move right around to the front of the model. Just to

22 start with, do you see the building that you first were

23 near, that is building number 22, if you can see where

24 that building is in relation to the camp, could you

25 point to it? Take your time. Orient yourself properly

Page 7023

1 so that you are familiar. First of all, does that model

2 look familiar to you?

3 A. Yes. I think this is the one, this one here

4 (indicates).

5 Q. Would you look at the model very closely. Can you tell

6 me where you think the entrance to the camp is, where

7 you enter the camp when you are brought into it.

8 A. Here (indicates).

9 Q. In relation to that entrance, are you able to indicate

10 where it is that you recollect that the manholes were

11 that you were taken to shortly after you arrived in the

12 camp, to approximately the place where you think those

13 manholes were?

14 A. (indicates).

15 Q. You are going from one end of the model to the other end

16 of the model. Just one more thing for me. You may not

17 be able to see it, but the building, the medical centre

18 building that was known as building number 22 that you

19 referred to in your evidence, are you able to see where

20 that is in the camp?

21 A. (indicates).

22 Q. You can go back to your seat. I have no further

23 questions on that. When you arrived at the place where

24 the manhole was, what happened? Can you explain what

25 happened at that point in time?

Page 7024

1 A. Hazim Delic opened the manhole and ordered us all to get

2 in. Miro Golubovic entered the first and I followed

3 him.

4 Q. Apart from Miro Golubovic, was there anyone else other

5 than him and you there at that time?

6 A. Not at that time. A while later maybe a couple of hours

7 later, an older man was put in. I do not know who he

8 was.

9 Q. You mentioned Hazim Delic being one of the people that

10 ordered you into the hole. Was there anyone there

11 assisting Hazim Delic at the time?

12 A. Yes, Darko Verkic was there.

13 Q. Can you describe the manhole for us please that you were

14 ordered to enter into? Firstly, can you give the court

15 some ideas of the dimensions of this manhole?

16 A. 2.5 by 3 metres, I would say.

17 Q. 2.5 by 3 metres wide or high?

18 A. 2.5 high and maybe 2, 2.5 wide. I did not really take

19 measurements.

20 Q. Did the manhole go vertically down into the ground or

21 did it go at a horizontal -- did it go horizontally into

22 the ground?

23 A. It was vertical. It was only half a metre above the

24 ground.

25 Q. Were you able to determine what it is that you thought

Page 7025

1 that the manhole was used for, what its purpose was?

2 A. I think these were intimidation methods.

3 Q. I want you to tell me what you thought it was used for

4 before it was set up as a camp, before it was used to

5 put you in, I want to know, were you able to

6 ascertain --

7 A. I understand. I think the manhole was used for

8 controlling the reservoirs situating above the

9 facility. Those were fuel reservoirs. The valves

10 inside it I think were used for that.

11 Q. When you entered the manhole, was there a lid or door

12 upon the manhole?

13 A. Yes, there was an iron lid on the manhole.

14 Q. Can you describe this lid for us? How did it function?

15 A. It was perhaps 80 by 80 centimetres. It opened to one

16 side only. It had a padlock on the other side, a

17 padlock to lock it up.

18 Q. Was it sealed or was there holes in it? Was it a sealed

19 lid or were there ventilation holes in it at all?

20 A. There was nothing on the lid itself, but in the corner

21 of the manhole there was a pipe that was connected with

22 the outside and that is how we got oxygen, through that

23 pipe.

24 Q. When you entered the manhole, which you have said in

25 your evidence was vertical, how did you descend down

Page 7026

1 into the manhole? How were you able to do that?

2 A. There was a metal ladder.

3 Q. After you were placed in the manhole, was the lid

4 closed?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Do you know whether or not it was locked after you had

7 entered?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Was it locked?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Inside the manhole, what form of lighting was there, if

12 any?

13 A. There was nothing. It was dark.

14 Q. Can you describe the air, the state of the air inside

15 the manhole?

16 A. I can only say that there was not enough air from time

17 to time.

18 Q. What of the smell? Was there any smell inside the

19 manhole that was distinctive?

20 A. Yes, one could feel the smell of urine, because many

21 people had already been there before me who had to

22 urinate there.

23 Q. Apart from Miro Golubovic, was there anyone else in the

24 manhole when you entered it, or was it just you two that

25 went down there?

Page 7027

1 A. Only the two of us.

2 Q. How long did Miro Golubovic stay in the manhole?

3 A. I think that day and maybe the night. I cannot really

4 remember exactly, but he left before I did.

5 Q. You said that another old gentleman who you could not

6 recognise subsequently was put into the manhole. How

7 long did he stay there?

8 A. I do not know. He stayed behind. I do not know when he

9 left.

10 Q. How long did you stay in the manhole?

11 A. A day, a night and a day.

12 Q. Can you describe the circumstances of how it is that you

13 managed to get out of the manhole?

14 A. Well, I can. It was daylight, and the sun was very hot,

15 that I remember because when they opened the lid of the

16 manhole, I could hardly keep my eyes open. When I went

17 outside I had a distorted vision of it, as if I was

18 watching through a fog. I could not really see very

19 well.

20 Q. How long did this condition last?

21 A. My eyes?

22 Q. How long did the condition with your eyes when you were

23 suddenly met with the bright sunlight, how long did that

24 affect your ideas for, approximately?

25 A. I cannot say precisely, but I stayed down another minute

Page 7028

1 or two in the manhole itself and only then, when ordered

2 so by Hazim Delic, I left the manhole.

3 Q. When you left the manhole after being ordered to do so

4 by Hazim Delic, was there anybody else there with him at

5 the time?

6 A. Yes, Pavo Mucic.

7 Q. When you got out of the manhole, did anyone say or do

8 anything to you?

9 A. No, I was just ordered by Hazim Delic to enter the van,

10 the IVECO van.

11 Q. When Hazim Delic gave you that order, where was

12 Mr. Mucic?

13 A. At the very manhole.

14 Q. Did Mr. Mucic say anything to you at the time when you

15 came out of the manhole?

16 A. No.

17 Q. What condition were you in when you came out of the

18 manhole?

19 A. Helpless.

20 Q. After you were taken out of the manhole and ordered to

21 enter the vehicle, where were you taken then?

22 A. To building number 22.

23 Q. Who was it that -- who was in the same vehicle that you

24 were when you were taken towards vehicle number 22?

25 A. As I said, Pavo Mucic and Hazim Delic.

Page 7029

1 Q. When you arrived at building number 22, what happened

2 then?

3 A. Horror. I was leaning against the wall of building 22,

4 nobody asked me anything. I was beaten for half an hour

5 without anybody even asking my name.

6 Q. Do you know who beat you? Did you recognise any of the

7 people who beat you?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Are you able to name the people that beat you?

10 A. Edhem Jeliskovic, nicknamed Muf, Muhamed Corovic, Esad

11 Landzo, Osman Dedic and others.

12 Q. What were you beaten with on this occasion?

13 A. With different objects, tool handles, electric wires,

14 handles for shovels with different wires.

15 Q. Were you with anybody else? Was anybody else with you

16 at the same time you were being beaten?

17 A. Not at the time.

18 Q. Did you happen to see the two persons, Mr. Mucic and

19 Mr. Delic who had driven you to this spot during the

20 course of this beating?

21 A. They went to the reception building across from building

22 22.

23 Q. Were you able to see them in the reception building?

24 A. No, I could not see them because I was facing the wall.

25 Q. Just going back to the manhole for a moment, when you

Page 7030

1 were in the manhole for the period of time that you were

2 there, were you given any food or water?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Were you given food or water?

5 A. No.

6 Q. Following this beating that you were given beside room

7 22, what happened to you then?

8 A. I went for a formal interview, I think it took about

9 half an hour, I cannot remember precisely. After that

10 I was moved to building number 6.

11 Q. The formal interview that you went to, where was that --

12 where did that interview take place?

13 A. Opposite building 22.

14 Q. Do you happen to know the name of the building that you

15 were taken into for the interview?

16 A. No.

17 Q. Do you know who it was that conducted the interview of

18 you?

19 A. Yes, it was Miro Stenek and Zovko, I do not know his

20 full name. I know his nickname, it is Kuhar.

21 Q. Are you able to recall how long the interrogation

22 lasted?

23 A. Perhaps half an hour. I cannot tell precisely.

24 Q. During the period of time that you were being

25 interviewed, apart from yourself and Miro Stenek and

Page 7031

1 Zovko that you have referred to, was there anybody else

2 in the room at the same time?

3 A. Yes, Hazim Delic entered.

4 Q. When he entered the room, did he have anything in his

5 possession?

6 A. Yes, he usually had a stick with him, a baseball bat or

7 similar object used for torture.

8 Q. Do you recall whether or not he had any similar such

9 objects with him on this specific occasion?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Are you able to recall which of those objects it was on

12 this occasion?

13 A. It was a wooden object.

14 Q. Did anyone strike you or hit you during the course of

15 this interview?

16 A. Yes, once.

17 Q. Who hit you?

18 A. Hazim Delic.

19 Q. You then said that you were taken to building number 6.

20 Do you remember approximately --

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Do you remember the date that it was that you were taken

23 to building number 6, by any chance?

24 A. It was the second or third day after my arrival, so that

25 would be the 9th or the 10th. I cannot remember

Page 7032

1 precisely. It was five years ago.

2 Q. Do you know what month it was?

3 A. The month of June.

4 Q. Can you describe building number 6 that you were taken

5 to? Are you able to give us a description of the

6 building?

7 A. Of course not. It was a building 25 metres long, 10 to

8 12 metres wide, used for warehousing transport vehicles

9 of the former Yugoslav People's Army.

10 Q. Were there any windows in this building?

11 A. Towards the top there was a small glass, just opening,

12 not really a window.

13 MR. ACKERMAN: I do not know if it is a translation error or

14 what it is, but the transcript right now, the question

15 was:

16 "Are you able to give us a description of the

17 building."

18 The answer in English says "of course not" and

19 then goes on to give a description of the building.

20 Something is wrong, I do not know what it is. I do not

21 know whether he claims he is describe it or not.

22 MR. NIEMANN: I think the fact that he is describing it may

23 suggest that, but I will try and clarify it if I can.

24 Unless the interpreters can assist us? Perhaps they may

25 themselves realise it is a mistake.

Page 7033

1 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Return to the same question and then

2 see how his reaction will be.

3 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, your Honour.

4 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: You can return to the same question and

5 get his reaction to it.

6 MR. NIEMANN: Mr. Kuljanin, are you able to describe building

7 number 6 that you were taken to?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Thank you. I am grateful to Mr. Ackerman for pointing

10 that out.

11 Were there any doors in building number 6?

12 A. Yes, there were, a small door that we entered through

13 and another large door that could only be opened if

14 there was a need to open them for large vehicles, for

15 trucks.

16 Q. During your period of time in building number 6, was the

17 large door opened very often?

18 A. No.

19 Q. Was the small door opened regularly?

20 A. From time to time when needed, only if there was a need

21 to go through it to go to the toilet.

22 Q. When you first arrived in building number 6, were there

23 already prisoners kept in that building?

24 A. Yes, over 250.

25 Q. Did you know any of the people that were kept in that

Page 7034

1 building when you first arrived?

2 A. Many of them.

3 Q. Did you know where those people that you knew had come

4 from?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Are you able to name some of the villages that you knew

7 that some of those people had come from?

8 A. Those are mainly villages populated by Serbs, located in

9 suburbian parts of Konjic such as Brdjani, Blace,

10 Bradina, Donje Selo, Cerici.

11 Q. How were the prisoners arranged inside the hangar?

12 A. They were seated one next to the other in rows.

13 Q. Do you remember how many rows there were, if you can

14 remember?

15 A. Five or six rows, sometimes four, because sometimes

16 people left and the numbers decreased, the numbers of

17 prisoners decreased.

18 Q. Were you provided with any bedding inside the hangar?

19 A. No.

20 Q. What arrangements were made for you to go to the toilet

21 when you were in the hangar?

22 A. We had a 20 litre bucket during the night where 250 of

23 us had to relieve ourselves. During the day we would go

24 outside. We had ten seconds.

25 Q. When you went outside to go to the toilet, were you

Page 7035

1 under guard or could you just go freely as you pleased?

2 A. There were several guards.

3 Q. Can you describe the food that you were provided with

4 during the time that you were in the camp?

5 A. It was mainly just bread, rice and macaroni. At the

6 very beginning, there were 18 people per 700 gramme loaf

7 of bread, or 10 kilograms of rice per 250 people, just

8 boiled in water.

9 Q. Was the food that you were given sufficient to sustain

10 your weight?

11 A. By no means.

12 Q. Did you lose any weight in the time that you were kept

13 in Celebici camp?

14 A. Yes, 43 kilograms.

15 Q. Where were you seated inside hangar number 6?

16 A. When I first arrived I was seated in the third row,

17 perhaps five metres from the entrance, from the door and

18 then two or three times I was moved during my stay until

19 9th December 1992.

20 Q. When you first were seated near the door, were you able

21 to look out through the door when it was opened?

22 A. Yes, of course.

23 Q. Apart from being able to look out through the door,

24 could you from time to time hear noises outside of the

25 building?

Page 7036

1 A. Yes, we could hear vehicles driving past, because the

2 road was literally in front of building number 6.

3 Q. Apart from vehicles that may happen to have been driving

4 past, were you able to hear other things outside of

5 hangar number 6 other than vehicles?

6 A. I could hear only cries and screams of the people who

7 were beaten, tortured there, right next to the hangar,

8 by the door of the building, people who were taken out

9 every day and every night, and beaten up.

10 Q. Do you recall some of the people who were taken out and

11 beaten?

12 A. Of course. About 150.

13 Q. Did you recognise any of the guards that took people

14 out?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Are you able to name any of the guards that took people

17 out of the hangar?

18 A. Of course. Osman Dedic, Esad Landzo, Eso Macic, Almir

19 Padalovic, Muhamed Corovic and many others.

20 Q. During the time that you were detained in hangar number

21 6, were you ever beaten?

22 A. Yes, several times.

23 Q. Were the beatings that you received all the same or were

24 some more severe than others?

25 A. It would usually be the same thing, it would take about

Page 7037

1 ten or fifteen minutes. I did not really count the

2 blows.

3 Q. Can you recall who it was that beat you?

4 A. Yes, I was beaten at the very beginning by Osman Dedic,

5 Esad Landzo, Almir Padalovic and Muhamed Corovic, as

6 well and many passersby who used to come there to vent

7 their emotions out.

8 Q. Were these men that you have just named, did they

9 participate in one beating of you, or are you referring

10 to a number of beatings that you received?

11 A. Every time I was beaten up.

12 Q. Are there any particular serious beatings that you

13 suffered that remain in your mind now?

14 A. Well, I think it was the first or the second day of my

15 stay in building number 6, that is when I was beaten up

16 the most. I was beaten for about an hour with different

17 objects, with electric wires, with sticks, with wooden

18 objects, with baseball bat. Anything that was handy.

19 Q. Who beat you on this occasion shortly after you had

20 arrived in building number 6?

21 A. I definitely know two, I do not know the others. I know

22 that there was Osman Dedic and Esad Landzo. There were

23 some locals from the village of Idbar, people whom I did

24 not know personally.

25 MR. NIEMANN: Is that a convenient time, your Honour?

Page 7038

1 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Yes.

2 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honour, I am not sure anyone else is

3 noticing but it seems to me it is awfully warm in here.

4 I do not think I am the only one that is noticing it.

5 I am wondering whether maybe during the break someone

6 can talk to the building people to get it cooled just a

7 tad.

8 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Thank you very much.

9 (4.00 pm)

10 (A short break)

11 (4.30 pm)

12 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honour --

13 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Two people are standing.

14 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honour, may I just take a moment to raise

15 a matter very briefly? This is a matter which has been

16 troubling me for some weeks now and it was finally

17 raised directly at the beginning of this witness's

18 testimony and I now think it is an appropriate time to

19 raise it. I want to formally object to the Prosecutor

20 at the beginning of the testimony of each witness asking

21 a question which basically goes "tell us your ethnic

22 identity". My purpose in making that objection is

23 this: it is my understanding that the vast majority of

24 the residents of the former Yugoslavia share the same

25 ethnic identity, that being Southern Slav. What it is

Page 7039

1 that separates them is their religion, whether they are

2 Muslim or Orthodox or Catholic. It is a serious matter,

3 and I think it is a serious matter for this reason.

4 What caused the war was primarily the stirring up

5 of nationalist identities, the stirring up of

6 nationalist feeling, and it seems to me in a Tribunal,

7 the stated purpose of which is to try to heal the

8 nationalist fervour that was created during the war,

9 that it is totally inappropriate for it to be

10 perpetuated in this Trial Chamber by asking witnesses

11 what their nationalist identity is under the guise of

12 what their ethnic identity is.

13 This witness is probably the first one who has

14 answered it honestly, by saying, "I am an Orthodox".

15 There is no ethnic identity, unless the witness happens

16 to be maybe a Hungarian or an Albanian or something like

17 that, who is not a Southern Slav, but these people are

18 all Southern Slavs. That is their ethnicity. I think

19 it just perpetuates the nationalist problems that

20 created the war in the first place, so I think it is

21 inappropriate for us to be doing it here.

22 JUDGE JAN: May I say something?

23 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Thank you very much.

24 JUDGE JAN: It is the case of the Prosecution itself that

25 these persons were taken to this detention camp just

Page 7040

1 because they belonged to a particular ethnic group. In

2 fact, when Dr Janine Calic was giving evidence I asked

3 this question and she said exactly what you are saying

4 now.

5 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: I think before I call on the Prosecutor

6 to answer, the last question you asked was the problem

7 of the air conditioning, before we broke off, so when

8 you stood up, I thought you wanted to hear our enquiry

9 about it. We have made enquiries and I hear that there

10 is some technical disfunction which is likely to be

11 corrected by tomorrow morning.

12 I do not know whether the Prosecutor should reply

13 to this, but let us hear him. Whatever he says will be

14 directed towards the presentation of his case. It might

15 not be towards reconciliation of the parties, although

16 there should be an aspect of our contribution to the

17 whole exercise, but I think all the Prosecutor is doing

18 is to present his case as neatly as he can do it. Let

19 us hear you.

20 MR. NIEMANN: Yes, your Honours. In fact I am surprised by

21 this objection because I would have thought it was

22 obvious that the classification of the group is

23 essential for the Prosecution case and the protected

24 persons under the Geneva Conventions. It is obvious

25 that the differentiation between the groups is a matter

Page 7041

1 that has to be proved and your Honour is quite right in

2 what you have said, it also goes to the issue of

3 persecution and the classification of the group that is

4 attacked. All of those matters are tied up in the

5 offences that the Prosecution are setting about to

6 prove. One regrets that one has to pronounce or

7 highlight that there is division in this tragic

8 community, but sadly there is, but for the application

9 of these laws to take effect, the proof of these matters

10 is essential. In my submission, your Honours, this is

11 necessary for the Prosecution to establish. When I am

12 speaking of persecution, I am talking generally in terms

13 of taking out a particular group of people and

14 subjecting them to special treatment on the basis of

15 their classification that the Prosecution is seeking to

16 prove.

17 MR. MORAN: Your Honour, not to argue, I just want to make

18 sure I understand what he said. If I can boil it down

19 and make sure that I am correct and if I am not, I sure

20 want him to correct me, but it is the position of the

21 Prosecutor that nationality as used within the

22 definitions in the Geneva Convention is the same as

23 religion or ethnic background, as it is used within, for

24 instance, Article 4 of the Geneva Convention on

25 civilians. Do I correctly understand him as saying

Page 7042

1 that?

2 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: I think we need not go into a long

3 controversy about this.

4 MR. MORAN: Your Honour, I do not. I just want to make sure

5 I understood the Prosecutor's position. I do not think

6 it is anything we need to fuss over.

7 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: As I said, he was merely presenting his

8 case neatly as he intends to establish. Can we invite

9 the witness?

10 MR. NIEMANN: Yes, your Honour. Just before the witness

11 comes back in, Judge Jan you asked me about the list of

12 witnesses. I have made some enquiries about that. The

13 position, as I understand it, is this, your Honour: that

14 the list was drawn up and given to members of the

15 Defence and at the request of your Honours' clerk, a

16 copy of that was made available to each of

17 your Honours. Only three copies were given to

18 Mr. Hocking and we understood that they would receive no

19 further circulation than merely from him to

20 your Honours. It was not our -- we did not fear that

21 under those circumstances, there would be a

22 confidentiality risk. I guess in future we could

23 perhaps write on the top that it is confidential which

24 might solve that, but we did not fear that there was a

25 concern having regard to the very limited circulation.

Page 7043

1 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Thank you very much for your

2 explanation. I regard them as confidential documents

3 whenever such communications are made that is why my

4 brother Jan has locked his up in his desk.

5 JUDGE JAN: I have taken that precaution.

6 MR. NIEMANN: Thank you, your Honour.

7 (Witness entered court)

8 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Please inform the witness he is still

9 on his oath.

10 THE REGISTRAR: I remind you that you are still under oath.

11 MR. NIEMANN: Mr. Kuljanin, before the afternoon adjournment

12 you were telling us about a beating that you were

13 receiving shortly after you had first arrived in hangar

14 number 6 and you had mentioned the names of some of the

15 participants who were involved in that beating of you.

16 You mentioned the name of Mr. Landzo. Do you recall if

17 he struck you at all during the course of the beating?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. You also made reference to Mr. Delic. Were you struck by

20 Mr. Delic --

21 MR. MORAN: Objection, your Honour. That is a misstatement

22 of the evidence. He said Osman Dedic, as I recall the

23 testimony.

24 A. Osman Dedic.

25 MR. NIEMANN: I do apologise, your Honour. Was Mr. Osman

Page 7044

1 Dedic there?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Did he strike you during the course of this beating?

4 A. Yes, several times, just as Esad Landzo did.

5 Q. Did Esad Landzo say anything to you during the course of

6 this beating?

7 A. He did not say anything. We were just beaten just like

8 everybody else.

9 Q. When you say "we were just beaten", was there anyone

10 else there that you can recall was being beaten at the

11 same time as you?

12 A. Yes, there was an elderly man, I think his name is Simo

13 Jovanovic, and many others, Bosko Samoukovic and many

14 others. There were five or six others while I was

15 beaten on that occasion, but it was not outside. We

16 were beaten one after the other. It was in front of

17 building number 6.

18 Q. You made reference to Mr. Esad Landzo. Did you know him

19 by any nickname while you were in the camp?

20 A. Yes, his nickname was Zenga.

21 Q. Had you known him prior to going to the camp at

22 Celebici?

23 A. Yes, but I did not know him personally. I apologise.

24 Q. Did you know of his family?

25 A. I knew where he lived.

Page 7045

1 Q. Where was that?

2 A. It was in my neighbourhood, the place was called

3 Tjesanice.

4 Q. Did you know any members of his family?

5 A. Yes, I knew his brother.

6 Q. Do you know what position he occupied in the camp?

7 A. I think he was a guard.

8 Q. Do you know approximately what age group he was? You do

9 not need to be precise, but as your best estimate.

10 A. He was five years younger than he is now.

11 Q. Yes, but do you know what age he was when he was in the

12 camp?

13 A. Maybe about 20, 19, 20.

14 Q. Do you feel that you would be able to recognise him

15 again if you saw him?

16 A. Yes, of course.

17 Q. In the course of your evidence, you also made reference

18 to Mr. Hazim Delic.

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Had you known him before the war?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. How was it that you knew him?

23 A. Well, we lived -- he lived close by.

24 Q. Do you know what he did for a living before the war?

25 A. Before the war, he had a kiosk where he sold cigarettes

Page 7046

1 and newspapers.

2 Q. Did you ever have occasion to go to this kiosk yourself?

3 A. Yes, several times.

4 Q. Do you know what approximate age group he was during the

5 time you were in the camp?

6 A. 30, 32, thereabouts.

7 Q. Do you know what position he occupied in the camp?

8 A. I cannot be exact, but I think he was the superior of

9 the guards.

10 Q. Do you feel that you would be able to recognise him

11 again if you saw him?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. At the beginning of your evidence today, you made

14 reference to Mr. Mucic in the camp. Did you know his

15 first name?

16 A. Yes, it was Zdravko.

17 Q. Did you know him by any nickname?

18 A. Yes, Pavo.

19 Q. Had you known him before you went to the camp?

20 A. Yes, I did.

21 Q. Did you know any members of his family?

22 A. Yes, his brother. Two brothers, actually.

23 Q. How well did you know his brothers?

24 A. I just knew them. I knew that they were his brothers.

25 Q. Do you know approximately what age group he was?

Page 7047

1 A. Well I cannot tell you exactly, but maybe 38, 40.

2 Q. Do you know what position he had in the camp?

3 A. Again I cannot be exact, but I think he was superior to

4 everybody there.

5 Q. Do you feel that you would be able to recognise him

6 again if you saw him?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. You mentioned earlier in your evidence that as soon as

9 you were taken out of the manhole you were taken by

10 vehicle down towards building number 22, and then after

11 being beaten you were subsequently interrogated. During

12 the course of this interrogation do you know whether or

13 not a statement was taken from you?

14 A. I gave a statement.

15 Q. Did you write it down yourself?

16 A. No.

17 Q. Were you given a chance to read this statement?

18 A. No, by no means.

19 Q. How often did you see Mr. Mucic in the camp?

20 A. Well, seldom compared to the others. He would visit

21 from time to time.

22 Q. Did you ever see him in hangar number 6?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Was that occasionally, just sometimes, or was it often?

25 A. Just from time to time.

Page 7048

1 Q. During the time that Mr. Mucic came into hangar number 6,

2 can you recall whether or not there were any prisoners

3 there who had any obvious signs of being injured?

4 A. Yes, I was among them myself. Mr. Mucic came to see us

5 all, he came to me and he asked me who had touched me.

6 I could not tell him who had done that to me because

7 I did not dare, because I thought I would not see the

8 next day alive.

9 Q. Who had touched you, in fact?

10 A. The day before Mr. Mucic's visit, I had been beaten

11 twice. I was beaten -- I took the most severe beating

12 by Esad Landzo, Osman Dedic, and two or three others

13 whom I did not know from the village of Idbar near

14 Celebici.

15 Q. What did Mr. Mucic say to you when you said you did not

16 know?

17 A. Nothing, they only stayed there for a couple of minutes,

18 they did not stay long. Then they left from building

19 number 6. 20 minutes later, Dr Relja Mrkajic came to

20 examine me, and when he saw the state that I was in he

21 went back to building number 22 and he talked to Mr. Pavo

22 Mucic there, and then Pavo ordered me to be transferred

23 to the infirmary; that is building number 22.

24 Q. Did anything happen to you as a result of Mr. Mucic

25 having you moved to building number 22?

Page 7049

1 A. Yes, I survived. I would not be here, that is for

2 sure.

3 Q. Did anybody criticise you or anyone hit you or harm you

4 because you had been taken to room 22?

5 A. Yes, on one occasion after about four or five days in

6 the infirmary, Hazim Delic came in and he hit me over

7 the legs with a baseball bat.

8 Q. Did he say anything to you when he hit you over the legs

9 with a baseball bat?

10 A. I cannot recall.

11 Q. Do you recall a time when bullets were fired over your

12 head in hangar number 6?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Can you describe this incident?

15 A. It was in the middle of the day, Hazim Delic and Emir

16 Delalic came through the door. Then Hazim Delic opened

17 fire from an automatic rifle, and on that occasion the

18 bullet that ricocheted, hit Davor Kuljanin in the head,

19 wounding him.

20 Q. Do you recall an incident where you had bullets fired

21 over your head, where you were specifically --

22 A. It was in front of building number 6, not inside.

23 Q. Can you describe that incident for us?

24 A. Yes. It also happened during the day, I think it was in

25 the afternoon. A group of about four or five people

Page 7050

1 came.

2 Q. Can you name any members of that group?

3 A. Yes, I can. Ratko Juric, Hazim Delic, Rajko Tomic, Pavo

4 Mucic.

5 Q. What happened when this group came?

6 A. They took five or six of us out, they read the names

7 from the list, and we stood outside the hangar.

8 Q. Were you facing the hangar or were you facing the group?

9 A. We were all standing opposite the hangar, not facing

10 it. Then they asked which group we belonged to. I did

11 not understand what it was all about.

12 Q. Who asked this, who asked which group you belonged to?

13 A. It was Pavo and Hazim Delic, which groups we belonged

14 to, because there were some groups in which prisoners

15 were categorised.

16 Q. What happened then?

17 A. Four or five of them went in and I remained out there

18 alone.

19 Q. When you say four or five of them went in, are you

20 referring to the prisoners?

21 A. Yes, I mean the prisoners who had gone out together with

22 me, they went back to building number 6.

23 Q. What happened to you?

24 A. I stayed alone and I was ordered by Hazim Delic to turn

25 towards the hangar number 6, and a few seconds later

Page 7051

1 I just heard four or five shots.

2 Q. Were you able to tell who had fired the shots?

3 A. No, I was turned backwards to it. I think the idea was

4 to intimidate me.

5 Q. When the shots were fired, who was in the group of men

6 where the shots were fired from?

7 A. They were about five or six metres from me, and the

8 group included Hazim Delic, Ratko Juric, Rajko Tomic and

9 Pavo Mucic.

10 Q. How close to you -- were you able to tell how close to

11 you the bullets were that were fired at you?

12 A. I cannot really say precisely, but not far.

13 Q. Were the bullets fired above your head or to the side of

14 your head? Do you remember that?

15 A. In the direction of my head.

16 Q. Did you see who in the group -- did you notice who in

17 the group that it was that had guns?

18 A. All of them, but I think that it was Hazim Delic's

19 automatic rifle that was used to fire.

20 Q. Why do you think that?

21 A. Because when I turned, I saw -- I judged by the

22 reaction.

23 Q. Did anyone say anything to you after the bullets had

24 been fired?

25 A. No, I was just ordered to return to building number 6.

Page 7052

1 I was ordered by Hazim Delic.

2 Q. Other than order you back, did anyone else say anything

3 to you on that occasion?

4 A. No.

5 Q. Do you remember when this incident occurred after you

6 had arrived in the camp and were in hangar number 6?

7 A. I cannot say precisely, but perhaps after a month, a

8 month and a half of my stay in building number 6.

9 Q. When you were in the camp, did you know a prisoner by

10 the name of Simo Jovanovic?

11 A. I had not known him personally, but I met him in the

12 camp.

13 Q. Did anything happen to him while you were in the camp?

14 A. Yes, he was beaten up several times when I was present.

15 Q. Who beat him up?

16 A. Well, when I was beaten Simo Jovanovic was beaten as

17 well, so that was two days after leaving the manhole.

18 He was beaten by his next door neighbours, he was from

19 the village of Idbar.

20 Q. Did you know --

21 A. And the other guards.

22 Q. Did you know the names of any of the next door

23 neighbours that beat him? Are you able to tell us those

24 names?

25 A. I do not know their names.

Page 7053

1 Q. Did you know the names of any of the guards that beat

2 him?

3 A. Yes, those were standard so to speak, the guards who

4 were always there, but when Simo was beaten they came

5 for that purpose, because two of them were there on

6 guard duties for a few days, maybe even a month, I do

7 not know.

8 Q. Were any of the guards that beat him people that you

9 knew by their name?

10 A. Yes, I knew Osman Dedic and Esad Landzo. Esad Macic as

11 well, nicknamed Makaron, who was there in 80 per cent of

12 the cases of beatings of detainees.

13 Q. When Mr. Jovanovic was beaten, when you were in hangar

14 number 6 did you see any of those beatings yourself?

15 A. Yes, in the hangar itself. He received quite a number

16 of blows.

17 Q. When he was beaten inside the hangar, on the occasions

18 that you saw this happen, did you recognise --

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. -- the people that did these beatings?

21 A. The people who were beating him, as I said, were

22 locals. They were neighbours. There were two or three

23 of them. Amongst them there were Osman Dedic and Esad

24 Landzo.

25 Q. What ultimately happened to Simo Jovanovic?

Page 7054

1 A. Mr. Simo died, died due to beatings.

2 Q. How do you know he died?

3 A. Because I was moved to the infirmary and I was informed

4 about this by my friends with whom I was there.

5 MR. NIEMANN: Your Honours, might we go now into private

6 session?

7 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Can we go into private session now,

8 please?

9 (In closed session)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 7055

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (In open session)

13 MR. NIEMANN: Mr. Kuljanin, the person that you have

14 identified that we have referred to as witness N, is he

15 a person that you knew in the camp?

16 A. Yes, from building number 6. I knew him from building

17 number 6.

18 Q. Had you met him before? Had you met witness N before

19 you had gone into the camp, or was he someone that you

20 had met when you arrived there for the first time?

21 A. I had known him, but not enough.

22 Q. During the time that you were in hangar number 6, did

23 you see anything happen to witness N?

24 A. Well, I saw that several times. I saw that he was

25 mistreated, tortured, beaten in many ways.

Page 7056

1 Q. Do you recall now any of the people that mistreated him

2 in many ways when you were in the camp?

3 A. There were several of them, but Landzo Esad was there

4 more than the others. He was the one who burnt and who

5 hit with anything he could find.

6 Q. Are you able to describe the incident -- no, I will

7 withdraw that, your Honour.

8 You mentioned a moment ago that he was burned.

9 Did you actually see him being burned, or is that

10 something that you were told about?

11 A. I did not see him on fire, but I saw him when he entered

12 building number 6. He had a red tracksuit on him and

13 there was still smoke coming out of it, so one could see

14 that he was on fire.

15 Q. Did you see him being taken out of hangar number 6

16 before he was burnt?

17 A. Not once, he was taken out 100 times, same as I was.

18 Q. On the occasion that he was burnt, on that particular

19 occasion, did you see who it was that took him out of

20 the hangar?

21 A. No. They were called up.

22 Q. Do you know who it was that called him up?

23 A. I cannot say exactly because I did not see.

24 Q. When he returned to the hangar, and you say you saw that

25 his trousers were on fire or had been smoking, were

Page 7057

1 smoking from being on fire --

2 A. It was a red tracksuit, yes.

3 Q. Did you see who brought him back?

4 A. One could see where it had been on fire. No, he entered

5 alone.

6 Q. You say that apart from this incident where he was

7 burnt, he was beaten on other occasions, is that

8 correct?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Did you actually see him being beaten yourself, or is

11 this something that you were told?

12 A. I saw personally the occasion when he was beaten up in

13 the hangar, in the hangar itself.

14 Q. You know who it was that beat him on this occasion

15 inside the hangar?

16 A. I do and I do not. Most of them were passers-by who

17 were beating up people from the list. They were simply

18 given a list of people whom they were supposed to beat

19 up.

20 Q. The people that you do know -- I am not asking you now

21 who was beaten, I am talking about witness N. I am

22 asking, did you know the people that actually beat

23 witness N that you saw?

24 A. Yes, it was usually Esad Landzo.

25 Q. When he was beaten, was anything said to him --

Page 7058

1 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Actually, that was not what you asked.

2 You asked him whether he knew the persons who beat him

3 up. His answer "it was usually", that does not really

4 mean the immediate person.

5 MR. NIEMANN: I will try again. You said that you had seen

6 him being beaten inside the hangar. I asked you whether

7 you had seen him beaten inside the hangar and you told

8 me you did. I ask you: who was it that beat him inside

9 the hangar? Did you recognise any of the people that

10 beat him inside the hangar?

11 A. Yes, I said that, it was Esad Landzo whom I recognised

12 and Osman Dedic, and many of those who were there,

13 passing by.

14 Q. When you were in the camp did you know or come to know a

15 person by the name of Zeljko Klimenta?

16 A. Yes, he was sitting with me in the same row in building

17 number 6.

18 Q. Had you known him before you came to the camp?

19 A. Yes, much longer. About ten years before the war.

20 Q. Are you able to say approximately what age he was?

21 A. 32, 33.

22 Q. During the time that you were in the camp did you see

23 something happen to Mr. Zeljko Klimenta?

24 A. Yes, Mr. Klimenta was killed.

25 Q. Did you see this yourself or was this something you were

Page 7059

1 told about?

2 A. Yes, I saw that myself.

3 Q. Can you describe the incident as best you can remember?

4 A. I can. I was sitting opposite the door. It was perhaps

5 8.00 in the morning, maybe even earlier. It was a very

6 nice sunny day. He went out with Kujundzic, I do not

7 know his first name, his nickname was Garo, there was

8 Nenad Cecez.

9 Q. These people you have named, were they prisoners or

10 guards in the camp?

11 A. Yes -- no, they were prisoners. At their request they

12 asked the guard to go to the toilet, to go out.

13 Q. Do you know the name of the guard that they asked to go

14 out?

15 A. Yes, his name is Almir Padalovic.

16 Q. Go on. Tell us what happened.

17 A. Mr. Klimenta went outside in order to relieve himself.

18 When he was in front of building number 6, five or six

19 metres in front of the building itself, as he started

20 walking towards the ditch where we used to relieve

21 ourselves, Padalovic fired 7.62 semi-automatic rifle.

22 He was about 20 metres away from him. He hit

23 Mr. Klimenta in the back of his head, so he was killed on

24 the spot.

25 Q. Are you able to say from what you were able to see

Page 7060

1 whether or not this incident appeared to be an accident

2 or not?

3 A. I do not think it was an accident.

4 Q. Why do you not think it was an accident?

5 A. Because he hit him precisely in the middle of the head.

6 MR. NIEMANN: When you say -- I withdraw that.

7 Your Honours, I have another matter that I would

8 like to raise very briefly in closed session, if I may.

9 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Can we kindly go into closed session,

10 please.

11 (In closed session)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 7061

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 MR. NIEMANN: Thank you. We can now go back into public

17 session.

18 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Let us go back to public session.

19 (In open session)

20 MR. NIEMANN: Did you know Witness M before you went to the

21 camp at Celebici? Had you known him or known of him?

22 A. Yes.

23 (redacted)

24 MR. NIEMANN: During the time you were in the camp, did you

25 notice anything unusual happen to him?

Page 7062

1 A. I can say that Mr. M also had serious problems caused by

2 Esad Landzo, because he inflicted burns on his hands and

3 wounds by blows on his ribs.

4 Q. Was this something that you yourself saw or was it

5 something you were told about?

6 A. I saw myself when he was beating him inside building

7 number 6 on several occasions.

8 Q. When you say he was beating him, are you able to say who

9 he is?

10 A. As I said already, Esad Landzo.

11 Q. Did this happen on just one occasion, or were there a

12 number of occasions when you saw him beaten by

13 Mr. Landzo?

14 A. On several occasions.

15 Q. You mentioned a moment ago about him being beaten --

16 A. Not just -- I apologise, but not just Esad Landzo,

17 although many others who were there, such as Osman Dedic

18 and Hazim Delic and all the others.

19 Q. You mentioned a moment ago him being burnt with a

20 knife. Is that something you saw yourself?

21 A. No, I could not see that myself because I was inside the

22 building.

23 Q. Can you tell us what it is that you did see in relation

24 to that?

25 A. I saw it afterwards, after he had entered, I saw burns

Page 7063

1 on his hands.

2 Q. Did you see who it was that called him out of the hangar

3 before he was burnt?

4 A. It was Esad Landzo, the guard.

5 Q. Why was it that you were able to see Esad Landzo do

6 that?

7 A. Because he came to the door.

8 Q. When Witness M was returned to the hangar after -- when

9 Witness M was returned to the hangar when you saw that

10 hands were burnt, did you see who brought him back, if

11 anyone did?

12 A. He came alone. Nobody brought him back. He walked in

13 alone.

14 Q. Did you yourself see his hands?

15 A. Yes, I saw that when we were going out, when we were

16 going to the toilet.

17 Q. What did you see?

18 A. Burns on his hands.

19 Q. Do you know whether or not Witness M received any

20 medical attention for these burns?

21 A. I did not see that. I did not see him receive it.

22 MR. NIEMANN: Your Honours, I have sought a redaction. If it

23 is necessary for me to go into detail, I would ask that

24 we go into private session so that I can ask that the

25 redaction be effected.

Page 7064

1 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Let us go into closed session.

2 (In closed session)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (In open session)

13 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone please, your Honour.

14 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: I think that should be the end of the

15 day. We will continue tomorrow morning where you

16 stopped.

17 (5.30 pm)

18 (Court adjourned until 10.00 am the following day)

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