1 Monday, 13th October 1997
2 (10.00 am)
3 MR. MORAN: Excuse me, your Honour, I have a slight technical
4 problem, my computer is not functioning. If we can get
5 someone from the technical staff to get me up and
6 running, after the long break. It is still taking a
7 vacation, Judge, the computer.
8 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: It is not used to being busy. Good
9 morning, ladies and gentlemen. We have a full house.
10 Nobody is absent today. We will like to start the
11 proceedings, as we are scheduled to sit for the next
12 four weeks, in as much as possible we would like to sit
13 uninterrupted, so that we will be able to accomplish
14 things which we have not been able to do during the past
15 three weeks. We intend, except if you have other
16 problems, to extend our sittings to Fridays, although
17 our schedule indicates that we should sit Mondays to
18 Thursdays. But in order to accomplish all we want to
19 do, we would like, if there is any spillover on
20 Thursdays, to extend our sittings to Fridays. In this,
21 we expect co-operation from the Prosecution and the
22 Defence so that our trial will still run through the
23 periods we have slated them to be.
24 On the 16th, that is this Thursday, we are not
25 likely to sit before 11.00 am, because of an earlier
1 pressing administrative matter which we have, and
2 perhaps this Trial Chamber, which is the only one we
3 have, will be used for other business.
4 Today, we will start with oral arguments on the
5 Prosecution's motion to allow certain witnesses to give
6 their testimony by means of videolink conference, which
7 was filed on 26th September. Although we have not
8 received any written response so that we know the
9 reaction of the Defence to the application, we hope in
10 the spirit of general co-operation which we have had all
11 along, the Defence might be able to react to that
13 The Registrar will now call the case so that we
14 can start the business of the day.
15 THE REGISTRAR: Case number IT-96-21-T, the Prosecutor
16 versus Zejnil Delalic, Zdravko Mucic, Hazim Delic and
17 Esad Landzo.
18 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Can we have the appearances, please?
19 MR. NIEMANN: If your Honours please, my name is Niemann and
20 I appear with my colleagues Ms. McHenry and Mr. Khan for
21 the Prosecution.
22 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: And appearances on the part of the
23 Defence, please?
24 MS. RESIDOVIC: Good morning, your Honour. My name is
25 Edina Residovic, Defence counsel for Mr. Zejnil Delalic,
1 together with my colleague, Eugene O'Sullivan, professor
2 from Canada. At the same time, I should like to
3 apologise for not having been informed last Friday and
4 for not being able to attend the unexpectedly convened
6 MR. OLUJIC: Good morning, your Honours. My name is Zeljko
7 Olujic, I am Defence counsel for Mr. Zdravko Mucic,
8 together with my colleague Mr. Michael Greaves. I should
9 also like to express my apologies because I did not
10 receive on time the invitation to the hearing scheduled
11 for Friday, so please accept my apologies for not being
12 present. Thank you.
13 MR. KARABDIC: Good morning, your Honours. My name is Salih
14 Karabdic, I am an attorney from Sarajevo, representing
15 Mr. Hazim Delic, together with Mr. Thomas Moran, attorney
16 from Houston, Texas.
17 MR. ACKERMAN: Good morning, your Honours, I am John
18 Ackerman, I appear along with my co-counsel Cynthia
19 McMurrey on behalf of Mr. Esad Landzo.
20 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Thank you very much for appearances.
21 Ms. Residovic and Mr. Olujic need not apologise so
22 profusely, because I do not think you were in any
23 position to be able to respond to that meeting. It was
24 just a gamble, we thought perhaps if you were around
25 then it would have been a good thing for you to have
1attended. We accept the apologies, although you need
2 not bother with it. Thank you very much.
3 Mr. Niemann, can we hear you on the application?
4 MR. NIEMANN: If your Honours please. Your Honours, on
5 26th September this year, we filed a motion to allow the
6 witnesses Esad Ramic, Jovan Divjak, Fadil Zebic and
7 Kemal Dzajic to give their testimony by means of
8 videolink conference. The reasons why we sought to do
9 that, if your Honours please, was that at that stage,
10 those witnesses had indicated that they were not
11 prepared to come to The Hague to testify in order to
12 give their evidence and their evidence was important for
13 the Prosecution case, and because of that, we sought to
14 move the Chamber in order to obtain an order to that
16 Your Honours, at all stages from then until now,
17 the Prosecution has been endeavouring to persuade each
18 of these witnesses to come forward to The Hague to
19 testify, rather than to give their evidence by
20 videolink. Regrettably, your Honours, we have been
21 unsuccessful to date in persuading them to do that, but
22 unfortunately it goes further, in that in fact the
23 position now stands at this moment, at least two of the
24 witnesses have flatly refused to testify altogether.
25 Whether or not we can bring about a change in that is
1something that we continue to work upon, but as the
2 position now stands, two of the witnesses refuse to
3 testify, even if an order of the Chamber permitting
4 videolink testimony was to be given.
5 The witness Fadil Zebic has said that he wishes to
6 have nothing further to do with the Tribunal in terms of
7 giving testimony, and refuses to have discussions with
8 our officers in connection with videolink. He had
9 previously indicated that he would have been prepared to
10 testify by videolink, but that he was not prepared to
11 leave his home town.
12 The other witness associated with that witness,
13 Kemal Dzajic, has taken the consistent position all
14 along that if the witness Zebic testifies or comes to
15 The Hague he will too, but if he does not, he will not,
16 so try though we may to separate them on this issue, we
17 have not succeeded in doing that unfortunately as well.
18 I just should say at the moment at this stage,
19 your Honours, the importance of their evidence relates
20 to what they can say about their dealings with bodies
21 that they had received from the Celebici camp, and those
22 bodies being named as persons who are mentioned in the
23 indictment. They work for an organisation which is a
24 funeral company and was responsible for dealing with
25 people who had died and in conducting funerals, so their
1evidence is important from that point of view.
2 They have provided a certificate relating to these
3 particular people, and it was in relation to that that
4 the Prosecution sought to call them.
5 The witness Esad Ramic had initially -- had at all
6 stages said that he would refuse to come to The Hague,
7 but that he would be prepared to testify.
8 Unfortunately, as things stand at the moment, the
9 Prosecution is doubtful as to whether he will testify
10 either in The Hague or by videolink, even if such an
11 order was made, but we are a little more optimistic that
12 we may be able to either persuade him to change his mind
13 in this regard and indeed we may be able to persuade him
14 to come to The Hague, but we are still pursuing that.
15 I have to say at the moment it is not at all optimistic.
16 Finally, the witness Divjak is probably the least
17 problematic in terms of coming to The Hague. It is a
18 question of timing more than anything else, and it was
19 only -- we only sought to proceed by videolink on the
20 basis that we thought we needed to have his evidence
21 an earlier stage, but I think if we can adjust the
22 timing of when he can come here we may be able to
23 persuade him to come. Again, it is in this state of
25 The two witnesses Ramic and Divjak are important
1witnesses to the Prosecution because they are military
2 personnel who were actively involved in the area in and
3 about Celebici at the relevant period of time and can
4 testify as to events concerning that and as to who were
5 in positions of authority and who were directing
6 operations in that area at that time, so in varying
7 degrees they are in a position to be able to tell the
8 Chamber about those matters which the Prosecution
9 suggests are very important to those proceedings.
10 So, your Honours, that is the state of affairs at
11 the moment. It is most unfortunate and I should
12 foreshadow that it has the effect that these are the
13 witnesses that we had scheduled for next week, had hoped
14 to be able to take their evidence next week, and
15 regrettably, we have very great difficulties in juggling
16 other witnesses to bring them forward from the week
17 after, should we be unable to secure their attendance
18 next week, so in other words, your Honours, if we can
19 secure their evidence by way of videolink, we will have
20 at least been able to present evidence during the course
21 of next week, if they are prepared to testify according
22 to this process. If, your Honours, we cannot secure
23 their evidence by way of videolink, which we are still
24 hopeful that we may be able to do something in that
25 regard, then the prospect of being able to call evidence
1next week is in some doubt, although we are constantly
2 working on this in order to overcome the difficulty.
3 So, your Honours, the position is that if we
4 can -- if your Honours are disposed to make an order to
5 grant videolink testimony, we will proceed on the basis
6 of trying to persuade the witness to come to The Hague.
7 If that fails, we believe that we are in a better
8 position to endeavour to persuade them to testify in
9 their home environment, and we would seek to persuade
10 them to testify on that basis, should your Honours be
11 moved to grant the order. But I have to say that even
12 if your Honours were so disposed to grant the order,
13 there is a possibility that nevertheless they will still
14 refuse to testify, and I think it is appropriate and
15 proper that I should tell the court about this now while
16 your Honours are considering the matter.
17 Your Honours, the two bases on which videolink
18 testimony has been granted in the past by this Chamber
19 and other Chamber has been as a consequence of the
20 consideration of the two principal elements of (1), is
21 their evidence important, and in my submission there is
22 no question of the importance of this testimony, and
23 (2), will they refuse to come to The Hague to testify;
24 that is the other pillar on which these orders have been
25 granted in the past. As things stand at the moment,
1your Honours, there is no question about that. It
2 indeed goes further, it is a question of whether or not
3 they will testify at all, irrespective of whether an
4 order is made, but in my submission, if your Honours
5 were disposed to make the order, then that may well
6 facilitate the process of persuading them to testify.
7 Unless there are other matters, your Honour, that
8 is my submission on the matter.
9 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: That makes it difficult to ask the
10 Defence to react to this application, from the
11 explanations you have already made. From the
12 explanation it is quite clear at least three of your
13 witnesses are totally unwilling to come forward and
14 there is only one who is likely to do so, or might even
15 come forward, to give evidence in The Hague.
16 MR. NIEMANN: Yes, your Honour. I acknowledge the difficulty
17 for them in responding to that. Unfortunately, that is
18 the position and I cannot present it any other way than
19 what it is. We are contemplating other measures,
20 perhaps to obtain their attendance here, but that is a
21 course which we may be compelled to follow if we cannot
22 achieve it by way of persuasion.
23 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: That also reduces the chances of the
24 Trial Chamber making an order in such a circumstance,
25 because if all you rely on now is just one witness who
1might even come forward without a videolink facility,
2 why make a videolink facility for persons who either
3 have totally refused to respond, and which as you are
4 hoping, very slender hope, to persuade to be moved to
5 respond to it. I am sure my colleagues also share my
6 view. It just does not make sense for the Trial Chamber
7 to make an order for such a facility. As correct as
8 your views might be about the necessity of the evidence,
9 that is not enough. If the parties were willing, that
10 will support the application, but at this stage, I do
11 not think it makes any sense to make the order.
12 MR. NIEMANN: As your Honours please. I cannot present it
13 any other way, your Honours.
14 JUDGE JAN: Mr. Niemann, when I read this application I had
15 doubts that they would even give evidence on videolink
16 in Sarajevo, because the reason given is if they give
17 evidence they will be treated as traitors. The chances
18 of them being treated as traitors would be greater in
19 Sarajevo where they were going to give evidence. I had
20 my suspicion. I thought maybe I said this to you. If
21 they say they will be treated as traitors, if that is
22 so, the chances of them being treated as traitors by the
23 police would be greater in Sarajevo.
24 MR. NIEMANN: Very possibly, your Honour. It is only that
25 one of them, at least, Ramic, had said that that is how
1he wanted to do it, so, notwithstanding it seems
2 illogical, that is what he had said, that was the way he
3 wanted to testify. I cannot put it in any other light.
4 This is how it is, this is how the position is, and
5 I would be misleading the Chamber if I tried to suggest
6 it was any other way. Unfortunately, this is the
7 position we are in. Their evidence, so far as we are
8 concerned, is vital and important, but we are
9 endeavouring to do everything we can to achieve the
10 obtaining of that evidence, but I am afraid I cannot
11 take it further, my Lord.
12 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: I suppose you might still keep them in
13 view, if they subsequently change their mind. That may
14 be the only way to deal with the matter.
15 MR. NIEMANN: Yes, your Honour. I do appreciate the
16 difficulty, your Honour, and I do appreciate how it
17 would be difficult for the Defence to respond to it,
18 having regard to the uncertainty. I think it is
19 incumbent upon the Prosecution to endeavour to do
20 whatever it can to get the witnesses here.
21 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: I think we will refuse your
23 MR. NIEMANN: As your Honour pleases.
24 MS. RESIDOVIC: Your Honours, as we have dealt with this
25 matter, a matter that is not on the agenda but is linked
1closely to your proposal that we should work intensively
2 for the next four weeks, this also requires a response
3 on the part of the Prosecution so that we on the Defence
4 side might prepare ourselves properly for the next four
5 weeks, for in concluding the hearing in September, the
6 Prosecution told us that out of the list of 23 they
7 intended to call 16, and that they intend to complete
8 their case by the end of this month and in the first
9 week of November at the latest.
10 In the meantime, the Prosecution has informed the
11 Defence of some major changes, first of all that some
12 witnesses would not be coming, so that we had to
13 interrupt our preparations for the cross-examination of
14 those witnesses. Then those witnesses were put back on
15 the list. Then we were informed for a third time that
16 some people on the new list would not be able to come,
17 so that the Defence now is highly confused as to which
18 witnesses the Prosecution intends to call, and when.
19 Will it be in the next four weeks that you have been
20 referring to, your Honour, or will they be the witnesses
21 that are on the list given to us on 9th October, or will
22 they be some other group of witnesses that we are
23 unaware of?
24 My suggestion would be that we ask the Prosecution
25 to be kind enough to tell us exactly which is the final
1list of witnesses that they intend to hear, and will it
2 be in the next four weeks. We are not asking -- we are
3 just asking who those witnesses are and how many of them
4 there will be, so that we will be able to prepare
5 ourselves in a continuous manner, rather than preparing
6 for a witness for seven days and then having to
7 interrupt those preparations because that witness is
8 scrapped from the list.
9 I hope my comments are in line and that we could
10 hear the Prosecution and my learned colleagues, because
11 this manner of presenting the witness list is causing a
12 great deal of difficulty to the Defence. Thank you.
13 MR. NIEMANN: Yes, your Honour, I appreciate entirely the
14 difficulties and inconveniences that have been caused to
15 not only Madam Residovic but to other Defence counsel in
16 relation to this matter. Unfortunately, it is not a
17 matter over which the Prosecution can have much
18 control. Perhaps Madam Residovic, in the spirit -- in
19 pursuit of the truth, and having regard to her
20 considerable contacts in Sarajevo, perhaps may like to
21 utilise those contacts to endeavour to persuade these
22 people to come forward to the Tribunal and testify, on
23 the basis that they would not be regarded as traitors
24 but would be co-operating and participating in pursuit
25 of the truth of the matter, which I am sure
1Madam Residovic is as committed to as all of us in this
2 Chamber. So, I invite her to do so when she next
3 returns to Sarajevo, so that we can endeavour to have
4 these people here to testify, which I am sure would be
5 for the benefit of all. But unfortunately, so far as
6 our efforts are concerned, we are doing everything
7 within our power to have these people here. We have
8 written to Madam Residovic on 9th October; we have set
9 out our position as best we can and indicated it as best
10 we can. Indeed, it may change -- it probably will
11 change, but this is our best estimate at the moment.
12 The only solace that I can offer to her is that when she
13 is in an equally difficult position herself perhaps the
14 Prosecution might extend to her the consideration that
15 we would ask to have extended to us, having regard to
16 the circumstances.
17 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: I do not know whether you have actually
18 responded to Ms. Residovic's complaint.
19 MR. NIEMANN: I do believe, your Honour --
20 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: I understand her to mean that she wants
21 an actual list of the witnesses you intend to call from
22 now until the Prosecution completes its case.
23 MR. NIEMANN: She has that, your Honour, so why she is now
24 raising this matter, I do not know. She has a list as
25 of 9th October.
1JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Is that correct? You have the list
2 which the Prosecution intends to call, a list of
4 MS. RESIDOVIC: Your Honours, I do not understand the
5 document sent to us by the Prosecution. The Prosecution
6 has listed three witnesses for this week and seven
7 witnesses whom they will call, but this differs
8 completely from the list of 23, then from the list of
9 16, then from the changes in the list made between
10 22nd September and 9th October, so my first question is:
11 is this the final list of witnesses that the Prosecution
12 intends to call or not, because that cannot be seen from
13 the letter. Are they the people who will be called in
14 the next four weeks that you, your Honour, have spoken
15 of? I wish to thank the Prosecutor for thinking that
16 I have an important position in Sarajevo. I will be
17 very pleased if at some stage of the proceedings in the
18 interest of the proceedings I will be able to assist the
19 Trial Chamber, but I do not feel it my duty to assist
20 the Prosecution in the same way.
21 However, since the question has been put, but not
22 as an answer to my question, I must say that some of the
23 witnesses on the list, like Pasalic, Esad Ramic, never
24 wanted to have any contact with the Defence, so that
25 I think it is up to the Prosecution to prove its case,
1 to find the witnesses and to bring them to the
2 Tribunal. I wish to repeat that the Defence of
3 Mr. Delalic is not questioning the number of witnesses,
4 we just wish to know who they will be and when they will
5 come. If this is the final list, then we know where we
7 MR. NIEMANN: I cannot assist Madam Residovic any more than
8 perhaps to read out the letter and to say what we mean
9 by it. We give the list of witnesses that we intended
10 to call this week, Witness J, Witness R and Arif
11 Pasalic. It does not look as though we are going to be
12 able to secure the attendance of Arif Pasalic as things
13 stand at the moment.
14 We then go on to say in our letter:
15 "As you know, we continue to have difficulties in
16 scheduling our witnesses. We have listed below the
17 witnesses that we anticipate we will be able to call in
18 the upcoming weeks. We will notify you when we have
19 additional details concerning their appearance. Given
20 the small number of remaining witnesses, we assume that
21 you will be ready for these witnesses whenever they are
22 called. We are also continuing our efforts to have
23 other witnesses appear and we will notify you of those
24 witnesses when we are successful.
25 "The position as it now stands at the moment is
1that we only have seven witnesses that we were
2 reasonably optimistic about and that even that may be
3 less. We are not very optimistic that we will be able
4 to obtain any more. This is notwithstanding the fact
5 that our ambitions were high when we advised the Chamber
6 of all the outstanding pieces of evidence that we wanted
7 to put forward. Unfortunately, we have reached the
8 stage where we have had considerable difficulties in
9 this regard."
10 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: I suppose this concludes the
11 dispute about the number of witnesses. Where are we
12 this morning with regard to your witnesses?
13 MR. NIEMANN: We have a witness your Honour.
14 MS. McHENRY: We do have a witness, your Honour, for this
15 morning. It would be Witness J, and if your Honours are
16 ready, the Prosecution would be ready to proceed with
17 Witness J, who is in the witness room. He is a
18 protected witness so we would need to close the blinds.
19 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: The Trial Chamber is ready, I think we
20 can proceed.
21 MR. MORAN: Excuse me, your Honour, there was another matter
22 that was scheduled for an oral hearing, having to do
23 with an ex parte communication. Does the court not want
24 to hear that?
25 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Which is that, under Rule 46?
1MR. MORAN: The Rule 46 motion, that is correct.
2 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: We have dealt with it differently. We
3 will send it to you.
4 MR. MORAN: That is fine, your Honour. (Pause).
5 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: The Trial Chamber will rise for just
6 five minutes to get the place ready for the witness.
7 (10.45 am)
8 (A short break)
9 (10.50 am)
10 (Witness entered court)
11 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Kindly swear the witness.
12 WITNESS J (sworn)
13 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: You may proceed.
14 MS. McHENRY: May the witness be seated, your Honour?
15 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Yes, he can.
16 Examined by MS. McHENRY
17 Q. Thank you your Honours. Sir, good morning.
18 A. Good morning.
19 Q. Sir, am I correct that you have requested that your name
20 and identity not be released to the public or the media
21 and that your face not be shown to the public or media?
22 A. Yes, that is correct.
23 Q. You understand that the judges have granted your request
24 and thus that you will be known publicly as "Mr. J".
25 you understand that?
1A. I do.
2 MS. McHENRY: Just for the record, I would ask that, with
3 the assistance of the usher, a piece of paper with a
4 name be shown to the witness, and I will just ask that
5 you look at that and just say yes or no if that is your
6 correct name. Then it can be given to the Registrar for
7 the record. Sir, is that your actual name? You should
8 not say it, sir. You should not say your name. You
9 should just say whether or not it is --
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Sir, am I correct that you are now 46 years old?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. What is your ethnic background?
14 A. Serbian.
15 Q. In May 1992, where were you living?
16 A. In May 1992 I lived in Bradina, which is near Konjic.
17 It is between Konjic and Sarajevo. It is about 12
18 kilometres from Konjic, going in the direction of
20 Q. How were you employed?
21 A. I lived in Bradina and I had my own business, I had a
22 restaurant, I had two stores, I had my own slaughter
23 house, et cetera.
24 Q. Are you trained as a butcher also, sir?
25 A. Yes, I was trained as a butcher, correct.
1Q. Towards the end of May in 1992, sir, was there any kind
2 of attack or military action in Bradina?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Did there come a time after the action in Bradina when
5 you surrendered?
6 A. I surrendered in Pazaric.
7 Q. Approximately how far away from Konjic or from Bradina
8 is Pazaric?
9 A. I think it is approximately 20 kilometres, 20 some
11 Q. Do you know the approximate date that it was when you
12 surrendered, or do you know approximately how many days
13 after the attack on Bradina it was when you surrendered?
14 A. I think about four days. It was four to five days,
15 maybe. I do not know exactly. I am not 100 per cent
17 Q. During that period of time, approximately four or five
18 days, had you been in hiding?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. After you surrendered, where were you imprisoned,
22 A. I surrendered in a barracks, I think it was a military
23 barracks. It was called Krupa, and from there, I was
24 taken to Pazaric, to a headquarters of theirs, and from
25 there I was transferred to the silo in Tarcin.
1Q. For how long a time did you remain in prison in the
2 silos in Tarcin, approximately?
3 A. I think it was two days, that is what I think. I think
4 that was two days.
5 Q. Where were you brought after those two days?
6 A. After two days, I was taken to the Celebici camp.
7 Q. Sir, later on I am going to ask you sort of in more
8 detail questions, but just for now, so that the judges
9 can have an overview, can you say approximately how long
10 it was that you stayed in Celebici, overall?
11 A. Altogether I think I spent about four months in
12 Celebici. Then I was moved to the sports hall at
13 Musala, that was how it was called, the Musala Sports
14 Hall, and then I was again taken back to Celebici from
15 Musala and then I was let go. The same day when I was
16 brought back from Musala to Celebici was the day I was
17 released from Celebici, the same night, that evening.
18 Q. Sir, going back to the beginning when you were first
19 brought to Celebici in early June, how many other
20 prisoners arrived with you in Celebici at that same time
21 as you?
22 A. Together with me, I think it was about six prisoners,
23 five or six, six as far as I can recall.
24 Q. Do you remember any of their names, and if so, would you
25 please just tell us the names of the prisoners who came
1with you to Celebici?
2 A. Yes, I can. Branislav Mrkajic, Borivoje Mrkajic, Dragan
3 Mrkajic, Andjelko Kuljanin, so Andjelko Kuljanin, Dragan
4 Mrkajic, Brana Mrkajic, Branislav, Andjelko Kuljanin,
5 Borivoje Mrkajic, Gojko Mrkajic.
6 Q. Thank you, sir. Sir, would you please tell the judges
7 exactly what happened once you were brought to Celebici,
8 and I would ask that you speak slowly in case I need to
9 interrupt or ask any clarifying questions.
10 A. When we were brought to Celebici, we were brought in a
11 bus of a sort from Tarcin, and this bus was stopped in
12 Bradina and then in Bradina. They tied us with some
13 wire, then they threatened to kill us, then it was
14 parked right in front of the house where my business
15 was, where I lived, Jasmin Guska, Sevrin Niksic was
16 there, I know them personally and I saw them personally
17 there. They would tell me, why did you run away, you
18 had so much money, you have millions of Deutschmarks, so
19 why did you run away, fuck your Chetnik mother, and so
20 he ordered us to be tied and then this -- they brought
21 this wire and then pliers and that is what they used on
22 us and then they were going to go to take us to some
23 warehouse and shoot us.
24 But anyway, we were ordered to stop, it was Gojko,
25 Dragan and then myself, I was number three, one behind
1the other, so somebody ordered us to stop and some
2 Divsa, I remember that well, Divsa was from Konjic, he
3 was a former husband of Jasmina Dzumhur.
4 Q. Sir, if I can, can I just take you to the time when you
5 were actually brought to Celebici and can you tell us,
6 once the vehicle brought you into Celebici, can you tell
7 us exactly what happened once the vehicle arrived in
9 A. When the vehicle arrived, this bus, when it arrived in
10 Celebici, then they placed us against a wall of the
11 infirmary and they said, "hands up" and then "throw
12 everything out of your pockets, whatever you have". At
13 that point, Pavo was there also, Mr. Pavo.
14 Q. When you say Mr. Pavo, can you just give us the full
16 A. Pavo Mucic, called Zdravko now, in fact Zdravko Mucic,
17 called Pavo, but in the camp, everyone called him Pavo
18 for the most part.
19 Q. Please continue, sir, with what happened.
20 A. Then they said, "take everything out" and I
21 well, there was a Macic near, a man called Macic, he was
22 working as some scribe there in that command and this
23 Macic took stuff away from me. I had a sort of cap, it
24 had like a little tuft like children had, and then he
25 said "throw that on the ground" and there was --
1somebody said, "take those hats again" and I thought
2 that he was saying to both of us, because there was
3 another one who had a hat and then they said, "your hat
4 looks like a particular kind of hat", and they started
5 putting it back on his head, whereas mine, they did
6 not. Then Pavo came and said, "he has a lot of money,
7 lot of money" and then they kicked me a little bit.
8 Gojko who was there, who was beaten up in Bradina, he
9 was all bloodied, so they put some kind of a net on his
10 head, and there was some Dzajic, some Nuta there, and
11 I heard when this Dzajic said, "do not beat them,
12 because they have already gotten enough".
13 Then they called out this Boro Mrkajic a couple of
14 minutes later, they said "step forward" and he did
15 he said, "I saw you in Bradina, you were running down a
16 road, I could have killed you, I was commander up
17 there", so he was telling him that he was the commander
18 of this unit, that was coming down from the Boro
19 Mrkajic, "I am told you are some kind of an army, but
20 you are absolutely no army".
21 Q. Sir, who was it who was talking to Boro Mrkajic?
22 A. That was Nuta, that was what he was called, Nuta.
23 I know him personally, I know that he worked for the
24 municipal government for a while.
25 Q. Sir, did you see if any -- were any valuables taken off
1you or did you see any valuables taken from other
2 persons once they arrived in Celebici camp?
3 A. They were taking things away in the camp, actually
4 number 9, chains and watches, things like that.
5 Q. When you first arrived at the camp, when you have told
6 us about, and there were these people including Nuta and
7 Mr. Mucic and I believe Masic, were any valuables taken
8 off you or the other prisoners at that time?
9 A. Yes, everybody had to turn over whatever they had, and
10 they said, "if you did not do it, you will die, if we
11 find anything on you". And then everybody was just
12 throwing down on the ground whatever they had on them.
13 I do remember well that Macic personally took some
14 things, he worked as a scribe, he was used as a clerk
15 there, he was shortish. I did not know him before, but
16 I know that his last name was Macic and that he --
17 I know him from then.
18 Q. Sir, did Mr. Mucic address you individually at all when
19 you were first brought to the camp and if so, would you
20 please just state exactly your interaction with
21 Mr. Mucic?
22 A. I think I said, he said, "you finally arrived".
23 I remember we were there at the infirmary, I was on the
24 left, not from the gate but looking towards the wall.
25 Here was the infirmary, I was over here and then he came
1from behind and he said, "okay, we can get a lot of
2 money out of you". That is all he said.
3 Q. Okay. Please, what happened after you and the other
4 persons were standing there and had to give up your
5 valuables. What happened next? Would you please
7 A. After that, somebody gave the order to take us to number
8 6, and I heard Mucic's voice, he said "no, not to number
9 6, to number 9", and then when they brought us in front
10 of number 9, the guards were in two lines and then they
11 beat us as we passed down between them, and then when
12 I got in, there were a lot of beaten up people and there
13 was blood on the walls, things like that.
14 Q. Sir, when you first got to the camp and you indicated
15 that people started to beat you until Dzajic said to
16 stop and when you were actually going into the tunnel --
17 A. That is right.
18 Q. Was Mr. Mucic present during any of the occasions when
19 you and the other prisoners were beaten at all?
20 A. He was not present up there. He was not up there,
21 because he stayed down at a command building, but
22 I think he could have seen it from there. He was not up
23 there, he was not up in front of that building.
24 Q. When you say not up there, do you mean he was not up
25 there in front of tunnel 9 when the prisoners were
1beaten as they went into the tunnel?
2 A. Yes, that is correct. That is what I mean.
3 Q. Thank you.
4 A. Because we were taken up there by some guards.
5 Q. You have mentioned, when you talk about Mr. Mucic, do you
6 remember whether or not he was wearing a uniform or
7 civilian clothes on that day you arrived at the camp?
8 A. A uniform.
9 Q. Do you know what Mr. Mucic's position, if any, in the
10 camp was?
11 A. I think he was the camp commander.
12 Q. Did he have that position the entire time you were
13 imprisoned in Celebici, sir?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Sir, can you describe -- you indicate that you were
16 first placed in tunnel number 9. Can you describe for
17 the judges the conditions in tunnel number 9?
18 A. In tunnel number 9, the conditions were very very bad.
19 It was a concrete structure that had a decline, there
20 was -- at the bottom there was a door, a big metal door
21 and up there also with a small bar, so the conditions
22 were terrible. The prisoners who were already there
23 went to urinate down at the bottom, but some people
24 could not go to the bathroom for 30 or 40 days even.
25 Everybody was beaten up and they were almost disfigured
1from all this, so the conditions were very bad. The
2 walls were bloody. There were no bathroom facilities,
3 so people went down to the bottom of number 9.
4 Q. Sir, during the time you were in tunnel 9 -- first of
5 all, how long did you stay imprisoned in tunnel 9,
7 A. I was there for a long time, I think about three months,
8 maybe more, I do not know exactly.
9 Q. During the time that you were in tunnel number 9, sir,
10 can you please describe what kind of food you received
11 and what kind of water you received?
12 A. There was practically no food, I think that within 24
13 hours, we would get something like a few grammes of
14 bread and we suffered for those -- that first period for
15 some time, so we did not get anything for 72 hours
16 sometimes 24 hours. It was like 5 grammes of bread, so
17 it was just barely enough that one would get a tiniest
18 piece, so the conditions were very poor, so that we
19 almost starved. We could not even move in the end.
20 I weighed 95 kilos when I was brought in and then, when
21 I finally left the camp, I weighed 58 kilos, so it was
23 Q. What kind of drinking water, sir, did you have in the
25 A. I do not know what kind of water it was, but it was in
1some kind of a bucket.
2 Q. What kind of washing facilities did you have when you
3 were in the tunnel?
4 A. None. At first, they would not let us wash or shave, so
5 that sometimes, we had cramps, so we were unable to move
6 our hands much. They would not let us bathe or shave
7 and then after some time, they took us out and washed us
8 down with a hose, then they locked us up again in the
9 concrete, but there was all kinds of maltreatment, and
10 even this hose, it was so powerful that an elderly man
11 would fall down from the strength of the water coming
13 Q. Sir, you indicated that when you arrived in tunnel
14 number 9 there already were other prisoners in the
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Do you know approximately how many prisoners were kept
18 in the tunnel when you were there?
19 A. I think more than 30, because after me, somebody called
20 Marko and Milomir came and then afterwards Susic, so
21 that I think roughly there was about 40 of us in all,
23 Q. Where approximately, sir, was your place in the tunnel?
24 How far away from the door to the tunnel were you?
25 A. I was not far from the door, I think there were five or
1six men between me and the door. I remember some of
2 them. Anyway, I was not far from the door, I was very
3 close, right up front. We were all very cramped,
4 because people were trying to move away from the dirt at
5 the bottom of the tunnel as much as possible, from the
6 filth, so that we were crowded up front. There was
7 Rajko Mrkajic, then Desko Mrkajic, somebody Nikola, an
8 elderly man, Mrkajic also, then Milenko. Who else was
9 there; Nikola, Rajko, Desko, Velimir Mrkajic, Nikola
10 Mrkajic, Andelko Kuljanin, Milenko Kuljanin and then me.
11 Q. Sir, during the time you were in Celebici, were you ever
12 interrogated or questioned in any way?
13 A. Yes, several times we were questioned and interrogated
14 and taken out.
15 Q. Can you please tell us -- please, to the judges, about
16 how exactly an official interrogation, how that was
17 carried out?
18 A. The first time we were questioned was only a couple of
19 days after we were incarcerated, two or three days.
20 They took us out of number 9, then they told us to sit
21 on the road, and then as the names were called out, we
22 went down to the command building for some kind of
23 interrogation. While I was in number 9, I was taken out
24 several times to be interrogated.
25 Q. Sir, staying with the time that you were called -- you
1were brought out and sat on the road and then were
2 called into the command building; can you tell us
3 approximately how long your interrogation lasted and if
4 you know who interrogated you?
5 A. I was interrogated by my former physics professor, Miro
6 Stenek, who more recently before the war did not work as
7 a professor, as a teacher, but worked in the SUP in
8 Konjic, and then also another Muslim, I know that for
9 sure, I cannot remember his name, I know that he was a
10 big man, the two of them questioned me.
11 Q. Were you mistreated during your interrogation?
12 A. During the interrogation, I was not mistreated. I saw
13 Delic in the corridor, he would peep through the door,
14 but he did not mistreat me. He did not touch me then.
15 Q. Sir, after your interrogation, were you ever told by
16 anyone if you had been placed in any kind of category?
17 A. After the interrogation, I had no idea about any
18 categories, but when I was transferred to the infirmary,
19 somebody called Ismeta said that there were nine
20 categories. That was the first time I heard of it and
21 she said that such and such were in the first category
22 and you are in number 2 and you are in number 3, so she
23 would tell us which category we had been put into.
24 Q. What was Ismeta's function at the camp? Did she work
1A. I think that she did, she had some kind of a role of
2 secretary, I think. She was quite decent, she did not
3 mistreat anyone.
4 Q. Do you remember if she told you in particular anything
5 about what category you were in?
6 A. Yes, each one of us asked her when the others were not
7 there. She would come in and sometimes she would even
8 take detainees to cut some wood at her mother's place.
9 She did not give the impression of any extremist. And
10 then we would talk to her and then I asked, "look at
11 that list, please, and tell us", and then she would come
12 and say, for instance, "you are in the first category
13 and this one is in the second category", and then we
14 would discuss amongst ourselves the existence of those
15 categories. She personally would come and say, "you are
16 in the first category, you are in the second and that
17 one is in the third", and so on. We were all somehow up
18 to the third category. This was in the infirmary.
19 Q. Sir, do you remember, did she ever tell you in
20 particular what category you were in, if you remember?
21 A. Yes, she told me, I do remember.
22 Q. What category did she tell you that you had been placed
24 A. In the first.
25 Q. Sir, during the time you were in Celebici, were you
1yourself ever mistreated?
2 A. Yes, several times, terribly mistreated, so that after
3 one of those occasions, I could not sit or lie down for
4 three days. But I was mistreated several times.
5 Sometimes Delic or the others would not be present and
6 sometimes they were present when this mistreatment took
8 Q. Sir, I am going to ask, starting with the first incident
9 you remember, can you please tell the judges exactly
10 what happened with respect to the first incident you
11 remember where you were mistreated, and I will remind
12 you to please speak slowly.
13 A. One case of mistreatment occurred -- are you thinking of
14 the interrogation or the interrogation and
15 mistreatment? What do you mean?
16 Q. I am asking about times where you were physically
17 mistreated, and if it occurred as part of an
18 interrogation, please explain that to the judges.
19 A. For instance, I was mistreated once when a team, some
20 kind of a team arrived, but this was later. Before
21 that, I was taken out and mistreated not so badly and
22 then one night about 9.00 in the evening somebody called
23 Kravar and his group of men, his guards, they lined me
24 up against the wall as you go out of number 9, there was
25 a big wall but not at that wall, another small wall
1which was leaning against number 9, so when you go out
2 of number 9 and when you turn right right there, next to
3 the door. I was mistreated then, terribly. There was
4 an Edo called "MUP", they knocked some teeth out then
5 and then they demanded "where is your money, you will
6 confess, you must confess". They swore at me, "you
7 admit to us". At that moment I was facing the wall,
8 they beat me terribly, I had to lean my hands against
9 the wall and then I saw I was about to fall and I turned
10 round and I saw with my own eyes this Kravar who hit me
11 with his fist in the face, and as it was nighttime,
12 I saw him pushing his way into the group, and then an
13 Edo "MUP" came up and said "here you are, kill
14 he cocked the gun as if it was loaded but I did not know
15 if it was loaded or not, and then he said "here you are,
16 here is the rifle, kill me" and I said I could not.
17 Q. Sir, let me go back for a minute. First of all, with
18 this person you are saying -- let me just see -- what
19 was this person's nickname?
20 A. Kravar.
21 Q. You mentioned someone who was called "MUP" or
22 like that?
23 A. Edo "MUP". He was the one handed me the rifle, he
24 the one who wanted to give me the rifle.
25 Q. Sir, before we get to when you were handed the rifle,
1can you say how it was that they were mistreating you?
2 Can you tell us approximately how many there guards
3 doing this, approximately what they were doing?
4 A. There were quite a number of them, it was nighttime so
5 I could not count them, I think there were more than ten
6 of them, they were there, they made me face the wall and
7 they started beating me terribly, rifle butts, kicking
8 me, all kinds of things, bats against my back, my
9 bottom, the lower part of my body and they beat me so
10 badly that I saw I was about to fall. When I saw that
11 I was about to fall, I turned round and when I turned
12 round, I saw, though it was dark, I saw Kravar punching
13 me in the eye and he had pushed his way into the group.
14 When he did that, Edo "MUP" said to me, "here is
15 rifle", he loaded it and handed it to me, and I said
16 I could not and he cursed my mother and said "if you
17 cannot kill me, go and kill yourself" and again he
18 loaded the gun and he kept handing it to me, but I was
19 afraid and I was exhausted and my heart was beating
20 terribly, I was unable to do anything and he said "take
21 it, take it" and I had to take it into my hand.
22 I remember it was a semi-automatic rifle, something like
23 that, and it was a long one, and he held it out and he
24 said "point the barrel towards you and hold the
25 trigger". I was holding it like this (indicates) and he
1put the barrel against my chest and I was confident that
2 there was a bullet, but I moved it a little bit to the
3 side exactly where my heart was beating so that I would
4 not suffer and if it killed me then I would die
5 immediately and I did pull the trigger, but there was no
7 Then again they pushed me down and continued
8 beating me and threw me into number 9 so that for three
9 days I could not sit, I could not lie, I could not do
10 anything. However, I forgot to mention that somebody at
11 that moment said, somewhere behind the group, somebody
12 said "that is enough" and by the voice, I thought it
13 Delic, but it was not Delic, but it was somebody called
14 Ismet who was also some kind of a leader of the guards
15 and when I was transferred to Musala. I always thought
16 it had been Delic, but when I got to Musala, this Ismet
17 said "you see, if it had not been for me, they would
18 have killed you. Did you hear me say 'that is enough'?"
19 So that is how I knew it was Ismet who had said "that is
20 enough" and not Delic.
21 Q. Sir, did the people who were beating you on this
22 occasion, did they all work in the camp at that time?
23 A. I do not know whether they were all working. There were
24 ten of them.
25 MS. McMURREY: That has been asked and answered. He said
1it was nighttime and he could not see anyone, so how
2 could he know whether they worked in the camp or not.
3 A. Yes, it was nighttime.
4 MS. McHENRY: Sir, with respect to the people whose names
5 you have identified, did those people work in the camp,
6 were they guards in the camp?
7 A. Edo and Kravar and the others, the people who were
8 beating me, is that what you are asking?
9 Q. Yes, sir.
10 A. Yes, they were working in the camp and I know them very
11 well and I know they were there, because they were right
12 next to me, 20 centimetres away from me when I turned
14 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Prosecutor, do you not think we should
15 break and return at 12.00?
16 MS. McHENRY: I think that is right. Thank you, your
18 (11.30 am)
19 (A short break)
20 (12.00 pm)
21 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Before we continue, perhaps I might --
22 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.
23 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: I might want to have some clarification
24 from Mr. Niemann. It is almost certain that you have no
25 witnesses for us next week? We would want to know what
1arrangement you are making for that period, if you have
2 any of the expert witnesses to swap for that period, or
3 what other arrangements you do have.
4 MR. NIEMANN: Yes. Your Honours, perhaps it is better that
5 I explain what we are doing so that that way it may
6 assist in understanding what might happen. We have had,
7 I might just say, we have had a mission down in the
8 relevant area all last week, endeavouring to get these
9 people in for next week. That failed. It was not
10 successful in achieving that. We are considering, it is
11 perhaps a little premature for me to mention now, but we
12 are considering making an application to the Chamber for
13 a subpoena, and that is in the process of being drawn at
14 the moment, and that would go off this week, with the
15 intention that the witnesses would be compelled to
16 appear next week, should your Honours be disposed to
17 grant that.
18 With respect to bringing witnesses from the week
19 after back a week earlier, there is a number of problems
20 with that; one of the problems is that one of the
21 witnesses particularly simply cannot make it at all.
22 The other witness has said that -- he is an expert
23 witness, and he has said it would be very difficult for
24 him to make it and has basically ruled out the
25 possibility of being able to come at that time. At
1least in respect of those two witnesses there are some
3 There is possibly another third witness that we
4 had contemplated calling that we are endeavouring to
5 bring forward for that week, so it is regrettably in a
6 very unsatisfactory and unstable situation, but we are
7 hoping that as the week progresses we may be in a better
8 position to inform the Chamber of our successes or
9 failures in this regard.
10 Perhaps I might indicate that we only have two
11 witnesses for this week, but we have the issue of the
12 documents that were seized by the Austrian police yet
13 outstanding in terms of a tender. I expect that to be a
14 rather lengthy and drawn out exercise so I am not
15 concerned, if we sit through to Thursday, that there be
16 any difficulty this week in using the time available.
17 Our concern is being able to ensure that we can sit next
18 week and to be able to use that time, but I regret, your
19 Honour, I cannot be of much more assistance than to
20 simply tell you of our progress, what we are doing.
21 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: These are your difficulties. I just
22 want to know how we could use next week so that we will
23 be sure as to how to organise the time we have and the
24 outstanding matters which are likely to come forward.
25 MR. NIEMANN: It is our wish, your Honour, to use it by
1calling evidence and we are doing everything we can to
2 see that we can do that. I am hoping later in the week,
3 your Honour --
4 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: The subpoena experience is a fairly
5 long drawn one. We do not know what would happen even
6 if it is pursued. All right, we just hope that you make
7 your best efforts so that we would not waste time
9 MR. NIEMANN: I am very conscious of that, your Honour.
10 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: You may now wish to carry on with your
12 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honour, I think I heard Mr. Niemann
13 suggest that they only have two witnesses for this week
14 and we have been advised of three. Now I am confused,
15 I do not know whether they have three or two.
16 MR. NIEMANN: As things stand at the moment, we have two. We
17 had intended to have three, we spoke to the third
18 witness, we issued the -- the Victims and Witnesses Unit
19 have issued airline tickets and everything, but the
20 witness refuses to come. At this stage, the witness is
21 not coming, so we only have two.
22 MR. ACKERMAN: It is important we know which one it is so we
23 can prepare for the other two.
24 MR. NIEMANN: It is Arif Pasalic.
25 MR. ACKERMAN: Who is not coming, okay.
1JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: From your report earlier on, I had an
2 inkling that he is not likely to come.
3 MS. McHENRY: Thank you, your Honours.
4 Sir, with respect to the incident you described
5 just before the break with Kravar and Edo, can you give
6 any approximate idea of when this happened, even the
7 month it happened, or if you can say approximately how
8 long you had been at the camp or if it was at the
9 beginning or the end of the time you were at the camp?
10 A. This was in the beginning, during the initial part of my
11 stay in the camp. It was in the very beginning. This
12 was the night I think, the night following the day when
13 we were kept in a manhole and then after we were
14 released it was the following night that it happened.
15 Q. Okay. Why do we not then, sir -- why do you not please
16 describe what happened the day that you were kept in a
17 manhole. Would you please just describe what exactly
18 happened and I would ask that you start at the beginning
19 and go slowly step by step, to make sure that everyone
20 understands what happened, sir.
21 A. At that time, there were about 40 of us in this number
22 9, and we were split into two groups, one group was
23 taken to the manhole one day and then the next group the
24 following day, so in my group, I think it was about 17
25 of us. We were taken from number 9 and taken down a
1road, it was a road there, and we were brought to this
2 manhole. We did not know where we were going, where
3 they were taking us, we did not know that this manhole
5 However, before this manhole, one group brought us
6 there and on the other side, there were cars and then we
7 were going down there and then off to the side there
8 were these guards and then in between, each one of us
9 had to pass two men, I think -- one I think was called
10 Rambo and I think that the other one was called Ture,
11 and they were holding some sticks and we were supposed
12 to pass between them and as we were passing by, they hit
13 us. They both hit me on the knee, in the knee area.
14 I staggered -- I fell down to my hands and then they
15 said, "up, up there, off to the right", so there were
16 some kind of stairs up and there was an opening at the
17 top, and I think that Delic and Zenga were up there, but
18 before I arrived, five or six people were already down
19 in the manhole, so when I finally jumped down in, I was
20 helped by these people who were already there, so we
21 were all in that manhole and then 15 or 20 minutes
22 later, Pavo came and brought Zara out of that, and we
23 were all then kept there, I do not know, there were some
24 wheels there, more like valves, and I remember there was
25 like a staircase that were sort of like a wire or a
2 We were kept there for about nine hours and
3 after -- there was a lid up on top and then they -- that
4 was all closed and after about nine hours, people
5 started suffocating, because there was no air. Then
6 after nine hours, one prisoner went up there to check
7 that lid. However, at that time, to push it up, Kravar
8 was there, and he opened up there lid after nine hours,
9 but I think there was maybe another 15 minutes, had we
10 been kept there another 15 minutes we would have all
11 died, because you could not breathe any more, and it was
12 like the ribcage was bursting, and so Kravar then opened
13 it. I was lying on the ground and my mouth was next to
14 the concrete, so we were all on top of one another and
15 if somebody was sitting down, he was worse off than the
16 one who had their mouth next to the concrete, so I kept
17 my mouth next to the concrete all the time, but you felt
18 like your ribcage was bursting, and then when he opened
19 this lid, he said, "I am going to throw in a grenade"
20 and when this air came in, we all said, "just throw it
21 in". We would have preferred for him to have thrown in
22 a grenade than to go on like that.
23 Then they brought us out of there and then they
24 lined us up. One had to be in front and then the next
25 one behind him with the arm on the other man's shoulder
1and then they took us down that road, so a person was in
2 front of me and I had to place my arm on his shoulder
3 and the next prisoner on my shoulder and then we walked
4 down that road and we walked towards the command
5 building and that went on for a long time. He said,
6 "who started the war?", and then we were silent and
7 then he would say "Karadzic" and we had to repeat,
9 Q. Sir, let me go back for a minute. Do you know, this
10 time you were put in the manhole, are you able to say
11 whether or not this was in the first week or the first
12 month or the first several months that you were in the
14 A. I think it was not a long time after we were brought to
15 the camp, it was not long. It was a short period of
16 time. I think a very short period of time.
17 Q. Can you give us an idea of approximately where this
18 manhole was? Was it very close to the tunnel, was it
19 towards the gate house, was it towards the other
20 direction? Can you give us an idea of that?
21 A. It was not that close to the tunnel and it was not in
22 the direction of the gate house, it was the opposite, so
23 you came out of the tunnel like this (indicates) and
24 there was a road and then you turned and you walked
25 towards that manhole. So it was not towards the gate,
1but to the other side, the opposite side. I think it
2 was at the far end of the camp.
3 Q. You indicate that when you went to the -- first of all,
4 let me ask, with the assistance of the usher, that the
5 witness be shown Prosecution Exhibit 1, which is the
6 book of photographs, and I would specifically be
7 referring to photos 38, 39 and 40, which are on pages 29
8 and 30 of Prosecution Exhibit 1. If they could be put
9 on the ELMO and shown to the witness? (Handed). The
10 witness is now being shown photograph 38. If the usher
11 could also now show the witness photos 39 and 40.
12 A. (Not interpreted).
13 Q. Before you do that, sir, I am sorry, what did you say?
14 A. That is the manhole.
15 Q. Are those the steps that you said that you had to go up?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Who did you say from the camp was on top of this
18 structure? Were there any guards?
19 A. You mean at the lid?
20 Q. Yes.
21 A. Right. Delic and Zenga were there.
22 Q. If the witness could now be shown photographs 39 and
23 40. Sir, do you recognise what these photos are,
24 photographs 39 and 40?
25 A. 39 is the photograph of the lid, that is where you enter
1that manhole, and the other photograph is the steps or
2 the ladder rungs going in and the first one is the lid
3 at the top, where you stepped in. This is this iron
4 bars that were the rungs, where you would go down into
5 the manhole. That I can say with 100 per cent
7 Q. Thank you, usher.
8 Sir, you indicated that when you went down into
9 the manhole, there were already about five other
10 prisoners who were down in the manhole, is that correct?
11 A. Yes, correct. That is correct. I just slid down, but
12 there were five or six of them there already at the
13 bottom, so they held me.
14 Q. Were there any prisoners placed in this manhole after
15 you? In other words, how many prisoners were placed in
16 this manhole altogether, approximately?
17 A. I think it was 17, but as we were locked when Zara was
18 taken out, nobody was brought in in addition to him.
19 Q. You have mentioned Zara. Was Zara another prisoner?
20 A. Yes, he was also with us in the camp in number 9, in the
22 Q. What was Zara's full name, if you know it?
23 A. Zara Mrkajic, Zarko Mrkajic.
24 Q. You have indicated that you saw Delic and Zenga present
25 there. First of all, do you know the full name of
2 A. Hazim Delic.
3 Q. What was Mr. Delic's position in the camp, sir?
4 A. I think that he was Pavo's deputy, I think he was his
6 Q. Did you know or recognise -- had you seen Mr. Delic
7 before you got to the camp? In other words, did you
8 know him or recognise him from before?
9 A. I would see him occasionally down there.
10 Q. When you say you would see him occasionally, you mean
11 before you got to the camp you had seen him
12 occasionally, is that correct?
13 A. Yes, that is correct.
14 Q. You have previously talked about Mr. Mucic. Had you seen
15 Mr. Mucic before you got to the camp and did you know who
16 he was before you got to the camp?
17 A. Yes, I did see him before, Mr. Mucic, and I knew who he
19 Q. You also mentioned Zenga. What was Zenga's position in
20 the camp?
21 A. Zenga was a guard in the camp, he had a duty of a guard
22 in the camp.
23 Q. Did you know Zenga from before you were in the camp or
24 did you --
25 A. I knew him not well at all.
1Q. When you were in the camp, what was -- first of all, do
2 you know if Zenga is a real name or if it is a nickname?
3 A. I think that most prisoners knew him as Zenga. Later
4 on, I found out that his name was Landzo, but he was
5 called Zenga by all inmates and he was known as Zenga.
6 Q. When you were in the camp, was he known to you as Zenga?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Can you describe what Zenga looked like, during the time
9 he was a guard in the camp?
10 A. You mean how he looked physically?
11 Q. Yes, sir.
12 A. He was not very tall, he was fairly young, he was
13 shortish, he had a very high-pitched voice, almost like
14 a feminine voice, that is how the pitch was.
15 Q. Was he the only person you heard called Zenga when you
16 were at the camp?
17 A. Yes, I did not hear anybody else being called that.
18 Q. Thank you. Sir, going back to the manhole, when you
19 were placed in the manhole, were all 16 or 17 prisoners
20 kept in the manhole for the -- other than Zara -- kept
21 in the manhole for the nine hours that you have
23 A. Yes, all except for him.
24 Q. When you were being placed in the manhole, did you see
25 anyone else from the camp besides Mr. Delic and Zenga?
1A. When I was put in there, I could not see anybody, it was
3 Q. I am sorry, sir, at the time that you were brought to
4 the manhole and before you were actually put inside down
5 in the manhole, do you remember anyone else who was
6 present besides Mr. Delic and Zenga?
7 A. There were guards who were lined up to the left of us.
8 After about ten minutes, I heard some voices and I think
9 there was even some laughter and there was some shooting
10 later on. I do not know what it was.
11 Q. About how long had Zara been in the manhole before
12 Mr. Mucic removed Zara from the manhole?
13 A. I think about 15 minutes, after we were all inside.
14 Q. During the time you were in the camp, was Zara treated
15 like the other prisoners or was there anything different
16 about how Zara was treated, or his position as a
18 A. It was very different. He almost did not look like a
19 prisoner. He would walk around, he was with the guards,
20 and with Pavo and with others; in other words, he was
21 almost like free. He would talk about what was going on
22 and here and there, when he would come in. He said that
23 he would be exchanged, but then he would lie. He was
24 free, basically. He had different treatment, he ate
1Q. You indicate that Mr. Mucic removed Zara. Had Mr. Mucic
2 been present when you and the other prisoners been
3 placed in the manhole, or is the first time when you saw
4 or heard him when he removed Zara from the manhole?
5 A. I cannot remember exactly, I think he was there.
6 I think he was there in a corner, to the left. I do not
7 know, it was a difficult moment for us, because we
8 thought that we were going to get killed, they were
9 going to throw us there and kill us, because when we
10 were passing between those two, they were beating us
11 with these poles, as they could, and we had the feeling
12 that we were going to be thrown in and killed there.
13 That was the feeling we all had.
14 Q. When were you first placed in the manhole? Was it
15 during the day or at night?
16 A. During the day.
17 Q. You were saying what happened when you left the manhole
18 after eight or nine hours. Can you just please continue
19 with what happened when you were finally let out of the
21 A. When we were finally released, we came down the steps
22 and then we had to line up one behind the other with one
23 hand on the shoulder of the man in front. There were
24 quite a number of guards there, and then someone known
25 as Maca, actually there were two brothers, Maca was the
1older brother of the two, they were both guards and this
2 Maca had a flat in Konjic, right next door to me. This
3 one who was in command, and his brother was there too,
4 and they took us towards the command building, we passed
5 building number 6, and then on towards the command
6 building and then he would say, "who started the war?",
7 we were all quiet and he said, "Karadzic", and we had
8 repeat after him, "Karadzic", and he says, "who
9 best man in the world?", and he says "Alija" and
10 to repeat after him. He says, "who is homosexual?",
11 there is somebody called Siljivo who is a shepherd, and
12 we would say, "Siljivo", and Siljivo will say, "I
13 fuck your Chetnik mothers", and it went on like that.
14 They were mistreating us in various ways, we had to walk
15 around the compound and then we were locked up again
16 where we were.
17 Q. Was that in tunnel number 9 that you were locked up
18 after you were --
19 A. No, this was outside and then afterwards we were locked
20 up in tunnel number 9 from where we had been taken.
21 Q. Sir, how do you know it was Mr. Mucic who removed Zara
22 from the manhole 15 or 20 minutes after you and the
23 others were placed there?
24 A. We could hear laughter, jokes being made with Zara and
25 there was even some shooting I think, some kind of
1celebration, I think. We could hear them talking and
2 this kind of laughter and joking, so I think there was
3 some pistol firing as well. They were pretending
4 actually to take him out and kill him, so we thought
5 maybe he had been killed, but in fact this was all a
6 joke, it was all pretence, they were laughing.
7 Q. Sir, you have said it was -- how do you know that it was
8 Mr. Mucic who ordered or directed that Zara be removed
9 from the tunnel?
10 A. I know because Zara himself told us, and I know that he
11 was there, we could hear the voice and the words
12 exchanged. I heard him saying, ordering that he should
13 be taken out. I heard him saying that Zara should come
15 Q. When you say "him", are you referring to Mr.
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Sir, can you now please tell us about the next incident
18 that you remember when you were mistreated?
19 A. I was mistreated several times, I do not know what
20 exactly I should say. Once they took me to be hanged,
21 to a hangar. I remember that. I think that this was
22 agreed because if it had not been agreed in advance that
23 they should let me go, they probably would have hung me.
24 Q. Sir, can you please, with respect to the incident where
25 they took you to be hanged, can you please just tell the
1judges exactly what happened and I will ask that you go
2 slowly and start from the beginning. Where were you
3 detained at the time? Who came for you? Can you just
4 please -- first of all, this incident, where were you
5 detained at the time where this hanging incident
7 A. I was still being held in number 9 at the time, and then
8 Delic came one day and he called my name and told me to
9 come out, and he was holding a big rope in his hand, a
10 big rope, and like a kind of knife and he said, "come
11 out", and I went out, and then they ordered me to turn
12 around, and go behind number 9 to the right, and then
13 somebody ordered, "load the gun", but a man was going
14 backwards in front of me, backwards. I know this man.
15 He used to give tickets in the cinema, so I know him.
16 I cannot remember his name, but I know that he sold
17 tickets at the cinema. I have forgotten his name in the
19 Then they brought me there, and when they did
20 that, I think it was Delic who said, "climb up there,
21 two of you" and then two of them climbed up, and they
22 let down a rope, they tied me round the neck, and it was
23 rather loose, it was not tight, and then I looked at the
24 guard who was in front of me who held a rifle pointed at
25 my forehead, he was close to me and I looked at him, and
1he sort of waved his hand, saying, "you are done for",
2 the gesture meant. Then after that, Delic was behind
3 me, I could not see him --
4 Q. Let me stop you. In the beginning, when you said
5 Mr. Delic came with a rope in his hand, were you able to
6 see Mr. Delic at that time?
7 A. Yes of course, when I walked up to him. He was standing
8 here and I came from here, from the door (indicates).
9 Q. Then can you describe approximately where it was that
10 they took you, sir, where in relation to the tunnel?
11 Was it a building, was it a structure?
12 A. They took me to a hangar, and this hangar, because when
13 I came out of number 9 I went to the right along a path,
14 and then they took me to a hangar which was again to the
15 right of the road, I think.
16 Q. With the usher's assistance, I would ask that the
17 witness be shown photo number 44 from Prosecution
18 Exhibit 1, which is on page 32. (Handed). I know it is
19 not the best quality, sir, but can you tell me if you
20 recognise what is shown in photo 44?
21 A. Yes, that is it. That is the hangar, yes, that is it.
22 Q. Thank you, usher. That will be all.
23 So please continue. You had said that -- please
24 continue with what happened to you. You indicate that
25 the rope had been placed around your neck. Was the rope
1placed anywhere else besides around your neck?
2 A. And round my chest (indicates) here.
3 Q. You were telling, and I think you were at the present
4 where someone was pointing a rifle at you and you say
5 Mr. Delic was behind you.
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Can you please continue with what happened?
8 A. Then he said, "what is your last wish?" I did not
9 what to say in case I said something wrong.
10 Q. Who asked you what your last wish was?
11 A. Delic.
12 Q. Please continue, sir.
13 A. Then I said, "my only wish is to see my children",
14 then he said, and the other guard said, "you will never
15 see them, because these are the last moments of your
16 life", and they started pulling me up, and when they
17 pulled me up a little, they asked me, "where is the
18 money?", where is this, where is that, mostly about
19 money. I said I did not know. Actually, as I was
20 hanging by the neck, I could not speak, I started
21 choking. Then they let me down a bit again, and then
22 they said, "where is the money?" Somebody hit me very
23 hard with a baseball bat on my behind, and when all this
24 happened, I remember very well there was some kind of a
25 piece of iron on the ground and climb on to it. When
1I did climb on to it, they pulled me by the rope again
2 and I almost literally and definitely suffocated. These
3 were the last moments, and then they let me down. Then
4 they hooked me up again, and then on the way back, they
5 lined me up against a wall, then they took me to number
6 9, and then they the next day, I had to confront a
7 relative of mine who worked with me in the butcher's
8 shop at the gate, at the entrance, to the left of the
9 gates there was a small building, and they took me there
10 to confront her, because they questioned me about the
11 money, because while they were hanging me --
12 Q. Let me go back just for one minute. After this hanging,
13 when they finally let you down, did you have any
14 injuries or marks from what had happened?
15 A. Yes, behind my armpits, here across the chest
16 (indicates). Afterwards I did not see that on that
17 moment when I went back inside I saw the marks.
18 Q. Do you remember who it was who brought you back to the
19 tunnel after this incident?
20 A. I think all of them, all of those who were there.
21 Q. What happened then, please, sir? You were saying that
22 the next day you saw a relative. First of all, can you
23 tell us the name of the relative?
24 A. A woman relative, a lady, Mira, Mira Dordic, who was
25 detained with the other women next to the entrance, but
1I did not see those women then. She alone was brought
2 to this room where they brought me to confront me with
3 her, because the moment they let me go, I said, "perhaps
4 some cash may have remained with her" and then they
5 said, "tomorrow we will confront you with her, or anyway
6 we will see" and then the next day we went -- I remember
7 it was the afternoon.
8 Q. If I can just be clear, during the incident of the
9 hanging, is that when you said "perhaps some cash may
10 have remained with Mira", who was working at your store
11 at the time?
12 A. Yes, that is when I said that.
13 Q. And then --
14 A. As for the rest of the money, I said it was left behind
15 in the old house underneath the bed.
16 Q. Who was it who said "tomorrow we will confront you with
17 her, or we will see"? Do you remember who it was who
18 said that to you?
19 A. Delic said that.
20 Q. Is this at the same time of the hanging incident that
21 Mr. Delic said "we will see about this tomorrow"?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Then the next day, who was it who brought you to this
24 place to confront Mira? Who was present?
25 A. I think that two guards came to pick me up and Delic was
1in front of this small building. When I reached that
2 small building, then Delic took me inside into this
3 small room. She was sitting at a table, she was blue
4 under the eyes, and then he asked me and her about the
5 money, was there any money and where it was and that
6 sort of thing.
7 Q. Sir, when you say she was blue under the eyes, do you
8 mean that she had an injury to her eye, as in a black
10 A. Yes, here (indicates). This was all black and blue.
11 Obviously she had been hit there, it was black, she had
12 a black eye and I remember exactly, so it was her right
14 Q. Sir, where approximately is this building that they
15 brought you to where you were confronted with Mira? For
16 instance, where is it in relation to the command
17 building or the front gate, if you know?
18 A. It is right next to the gate, the first building as you
19 enter the compound, the first building to the left,
20 before the command building. It is a small building.
21 Q. Sir, what happened during this confrontation?
22 A. I said the same that I had said up there. Mira said,
23 "I do not know, there may have been 600" something,
24 I remember the figure 600, but I do not remember which
25 currency. She said it may be on her cupboard at home,
1and then after that I was standing and she was sitting.
2 Then I was taken back and that is how it was. Then it
3 was the same guards because they were waiting outside.
4 Q. Thank you, sir. Besides the incidents that you have
5 already described, were there any other incidents where
6 you were physically mistreated?
7 A. There were. There were various incidents. One cannot
8 remember, you were never taken out without being
9 mistreated. Sometimes they would take us out to collect
10 cigarette butts or to collect grass, but very rarely
11 were there any cigarette butts, but they would give you
12 a very heavy piece of machinery to drag it around, so we
13 had to do that very often, several times. Then to drive
14 this wheelbarrow to empty it, but there was nothing
15 inside. Then to carry it back up on some occasions
16 somebody called Osman Kemo gave me an antenna so that
17 I could fix the picture on the TV, but the antenna was
18 not plugged in anywhere, so I carried it around for two
19 or three hours behind a building and he was lying down
20 in his room, saying -- giving me orders through an open
21 window, go left, go right, go forward and so on.
22 Q. Sir, did you ever receive any medical treatment for any
23 of the injuries you received from your physical
25 A. Yes, on one occasion Delic came and asked who needed any
1treatment, and I got up and said that I had a very sore
2 throat, and I was ill. I was so ill I thought I was
3 going to die, and he said, "you will be given some kind
4 of aid", but nothing came of that. Then somebody called
5 Smajo, who was also a butcher, who would bring me
6 cigarettes very often. Whenever he came to see his
7 sheep, because his sheep were there, he would ask the
8 guards to unlock me, because we were locked for a time,
9 so that he wanted to see me and he wanted to give me
10 cigarettes and he always brought me cigarettes whenever
11 he came there, so I would come out several times and he
12 would tell the guards, "here are two packets for you and
13 let this man come out and breathe some fresh air for a
14 while". That was when Smajo came and I asked him, "if
15 you can do anything, please ask them to give me some
16 kind of pills" and Smajo went away and he came back and
17 said, "I think you will get something this evening".
18 Later there was somebody called Focak who also came and
19 said, "you will get something tonight", and then
20 Dr. Relja came.
21 Q. Sir, let me make sure everything is clear. Was Smajo a
22 butcher that you knew from before the war, a friend of
24 A. Yes, a good friend of mine, a good friend, and in the
25 war he was not an enemy either, regardless of
1everything, he was not an enemy. He would always bring
2 me cigarettes. Whatever he could do, he did.
3 Q. Did Smajo keep sheep on the grounds of Celebici camp?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. You indicate that at some point when Smajo asked to see
6 you, was allowed to see you, you asked if he could ask
7 on your behalf that you get treatment, correct?
8 A. Yes, and then he went away. Who he went to see, I do
9 not know. He went in the direction of the command
10 building and then he said I would surely get something.
11 However, just before night fall, I remember well,
12 Dr. Relja came, who was also captured and detained in the
13 camp as a prisoner, and then he came with a guard and
14 the guard called me out and right in front of number 9,
15 on that asphalt land next to the wall, he said, "lie
16 down, lie down on your stomach", and I did, and he gave
17 me a shot. I have no idea what it was, but anyway it
18 gave me some relief. What it was, I do not know.
19 Q. You previously mentioned a Focak. Was Focak the guard
20 who came with Dr. Relja for you to get this treatment?
21 A. I think it was, I think it was him.
22 Q. Is it correct that Focak was the name of a guard who
23 worked at the camp, sir?
24 A. Yes, only he would present himself as having a senior
25 position to the guards, he had some kind of position of
1authority, he was something more senior than an ordinary
3 MS. McHENRY: Your Honour, I think the next thing I was
4 going to ask him about is going to take probably more
5 than five minutes. Would you want me to continue with
6 this question, or do you want me to -- would
7 your Honours prefer to break now and start again after
8 the lunch break? I am at your convenience, your
10 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: I think we can break here and continue
11 after the lunch break.
12 MS. McHENRY: Thank you, your Honour.
13 (1.00 pm)
14 (Adjourned until 2.30 pm)
2 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Miss McHenry, we will proceed.
3 MS. McHENRY: Thank you, your Honours.
4 Sir, right before the lunch break you were talking
5 about some instances that you remembered where you were
6 mistreated. Can you tell us whether or not there were
7 other prisoners from the tunnel who were mistreated
8 besides you?
9 A. All prisoners from number 9, from the tunnel, were badly
10 mistreated in different ways. That almost went on
12 Q. What kind of condition were the prisoners in the tunnel
13 in? For instance, did they have any visible injuries?
14 A. Most of those who were mistreated were just brought in
15 by their arms and legs, and you would not know if they
16 were alive or dead, and so after a while they would
17 start moving so we knew they were not dead. So the
18 conditions were terrible in that respect. They would
19 just be thrown in like animals -- even the animals are
20 not treated that way. So they would be thrown it or
21 they would be pushed in, they would be kicked inside
22 from the door, so that most of them were in a very bad
23 condition, and they were not able to get up, and we were
24 not allowed to approach them very much, so we would wait
25 to see if they would start moving. It was terrible.
1Q. Sir, did you yourself ever see the mistreatment of other
2 prisoners in the tunnel?
3 A. Yes, in the tunnel I did see, and sometimes I could not
4 see things because the doors were closed and sometimes
5 I would see something, and in the tunnel itself I saw at
6 least 100 times, many times, 100 times.
7 Q. Can you please tell the judges some of what you
8 specifically remember about the treatment of other
9 prisoners? In other words, do you remember the names of
10 any of the prisoners who were mistreated, whose
11 mistreatment you saw, and if so, would you please tell
12 us about one of those instances?
13 A. I remember for instance Slavko Susic, I remember Rajko
14 Djordjic, Milosevic, Vukasin Mrkajic, Nedzo Samoukovic,
15 Ratko Kuljanin, Rajko Djordjic, down the list.
16 Q. For instance, with respect to Rajko Djordjic, will you
17 please tell us what you yourself saw or heard as it was
18 going on with respect to how Mr.. Djordjic was treated?
19 A. With respect to Mr.. Djordjic, he was mistreated almost
20 daily. They were saying that he was a Vojvoda, so he
21 was beaten, I saw injuries on him many times. They were
22 putting a bell over his neck so that he would have to
23 sort of sound this bell when he would be called out,
24 "Vojvoda", then he would have to sound the bell. He
25 said to me once that he could not bear this any more,
1that he wanted to be killed or to kill himself, so they
2 would take him out and he was really badly mistreated
3 many times and in many ways.
4 For instance, there was a case when four or five
5 of them were singled out. By then there were occasions
6 when the guards would just come in, when Delic was not
7 around, there were such cases that somebody would just
8 come in, they would just burst in and then they would
9 beat up the prisoners and then leave. I remember when
10 two of them came in and there was a Desimir Mrkajic,
11 they beat him very badly and they ordered us -- they
12 started at the top, from Rajko Mrkajic, he said that
13 this was at the top of the number 9. I think that they
14 had the HVO insignia over here (indicates) and then they
15 started beating him. They took baseball bats, and you
16 had to kneel on all fours -- this was at the very
17 entrance, this was inside they would just hit him and
18 the guards would come, but Rajko had already been beaten
19 and Velimir Mrkajic, but somebody of the guards heard
20 that Delic was coming. Delic had some feature vehicle
21 which had a very specific kind of sound. The muffler
22 was broken so you could hear it well. At that time, he
23 was not in the compound, so they heard him coming and
24 they would say "go, go, go, Delic is coming", so
25 two then left, but they were brought there by the
2 So all in all, it was the rifle butts, sticks,
3 boots, different kinds of objects, that is how it was.
4 We would sit against a wall and they would like kick us
5 in the chest area one by one. Then there was a group
6 that started again from the top, and then they stopped,
7 I do not know why they stopped. Then there were two
8 women who arrived who screamed at the door, there were
9 seven or eight following her, this woman, and she said,
10 "why are you keeping them here? Why do you not slash
11 their throats? These are all Chetniks". She started to
12 walk inside and she went ahead and she maybe came in
13 five or six metres inside number 9, but when she came
14 there, maybe by what she saw, she just fainted, maybe
15 from the smell and everything, so Delic took her out.
16 And there was a driver there, I recognised him because
17 he was in a car accident, so his arm was damaged, so he
18 was there, so that is how it was. It was terrible. We
19 did not shave for maybe a month, month and a half.
20 Q. Sir, can I ask you, you have indicated that you saw what
21 happened, the injuries or what happened to, I believe it
22 was, Ranko Kuljanin, is that correct? Did I understand
23 you correctly with respect to that name?
24 A. Radoslav Kuljanin.
25 Q. Will you please tell us exactly what you saw concerning
1what happened to Mr.. Radoslav Kuljanin?
2 A. He was not there in the beginning in number 9, he was
3 brought in later. There was a man called Nikola and
4 Rajko, the two of them went to number 6 and they were
5 substituted by I think Nedzo Samoukovic and Rado
6 Kuljanin. They were put one next to another, between
7 Nedzo and Rajko and Vukasin, at the bottom of the
8 structure. They would come two or three times and beat
9 them and sometimes -- and then somebody would get beaten
10 like three times while the other one would get beaten
11 once. It varied.
12 One of them was so black and blue so that his skin
13 was like the colour of this desktop here, and I think
14 that there was no place on his body where he was not --
15 he had not been struck.
16 Q. Sir, did you see who mistreated any of these people or
17 did you see who came and took them out from the tunnel?
18 A. They were taken out by the guards, by Delic, and he
19 himself would do it or he would be present there, but
20 there were different guards, they would come and just
21 take out whoever they wanted to. Sometimes there was
22 like a fake slashing of the throat, they made it look as
23 if his throat was slashed, they put some red paint over
24 him and so they would bring out others and scare them in
25 that way. Zara told us about this, that these people
1were covered with paint, they would make them lie down
2 and then would bring somebody else out to show this, so
3 there were different kinds of mistreatments.
4 Q. Sir, was there a Dusko Bendzo who was in the tunnel?
5 A. When I was there, Dusko was not there, but I saw him in
6 the infirmary.
7 MS. McMURREY: I am going to have to object to the leading
8 form of the questioning now of Miss McHenry. For
9 background information it was okay, but now to the facts
10 of the indictment I am asking that the court ask her not
11 to lead the witness.
12 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Yes, you can carry on.
13 MS. McHENRY: Thank you. Sir, you indicated previously
14 that you saw that Mr.. Slavko Susic was in the tunnel.
15 Could you please tell the judges --
16 A. Yes, he was brought in a bit later, I do not know how
17 many days later. However, I was there before he
18 arrived. Maybe ten, fifteen days later, Slavko Susic
19 was brought after me and Mikhael Puljanin and Milomir
21 Q. Could you please tell the judges what you yourself saw
22 concerning Mr.. Slavko Susic? Mr.. J, I am going to ask
23 that you go very slowly, speak slowly and go step by
24 step, and take pauses in between your sentences.
25 A. Slavko Susic was brought I think ten or fifteen days
1after me, but he was accused that he had a radio
2 transmitter, those were the charges, that was what he
3 was told. However, I know Slavko Susic very well, he
4 was a very quiet man, he was a teacher, I know him,
5 I know that he would never harm a fly. I think that
6 this was a person called Macic who framed him, I saw him
7 in a camp around that time. Then different kinds of
8 mistreatments, they beat him, they said "go find it,
9 where is it, find this radio transmitter". Zara told me
10 that Delic said "you ask him that" and he was close
11 me and I asked him, "did you have it?", and he said,
12 "I really do not know, but sometimes I have to say that
13 I did have it, sometimes I have to say I did not have
14 it, because sometimes they threatened me they would kill
15 all of you if I did not admit". So there were all these
16 beatings and there was Macic --
17 Q. Sir, did you yourself ever see Mr.. Susic mistreated when
18 he was being mistreated?
19 A. Yes, I did, on several occasions.
20 Q. Would you please tell us, and if you can, separate the
21 incidents. Please tell us what you yourself saw with
22 respect to Mr. Susic's mistreatment. I would like you to
23 please tell us, if you know, who you saw involved, where
24 it happened, with respect to the first incident of
25 mistreatment that occurred. Please tell us exactly what
2 A. The first mistreatment was carried out by Zenga, Delic
3 and other guards. I think that there were very few of
4 the guards who were not involved. I think that -- not
5 I think, I saw, because Zara came because he was out
6 there with us, he said that Delic told him to beat
7 him --
8 MS. McMURREY: Your Honour, I am going to object. The
9 question was what he personally witnessed. Now he is
10 referring to what Zara told him outside. I am just
11 asking that the appropriate predicate be laid before he
12 answers this question, because it is clear he is
13 recounting what Zara told him, not what he personally
15 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Will you kindly proceed in the proper
17 MS. McHENRY: Let me just go back. First of all, without
18 now telling what anyone told you, will you please just
19 tell us exactly what you saw and at the end of it, if it
20 is necessary to explain what you did, I will ask you
21 about what people told you, but for now, if you could
22 please just tell us exactly just what you saw.
23 A. I personally saw for instance when he was beaten in
24 number 9, I saw on one occasion, because I was brought
25 out in front of number 9, to pick up some cigarette
1butts, one of the guards brought me out and I saw with
2 my own eyes, I was maybe 30 metres away from number 9
3 and I was looking halfway towards the gate, that is how
4 I was facing, and Susic was brought out and in one
5 corner there was Zara, he was in the very corner. As
6 you went from the gate to number 9, so that was the
7 right-hand corner, so he was on the stairs, next to the
8 door, and behind him was Zara and looking towards number
9 9, he was in the middle, and to the left was Focak and
10 next to the wall was Zenga. That is what I saw with my
11 own eyes, and they were beating him, they were
12 mistreating him, abusing him and when I arrived, this
13 guard suddenly came over and said "get inside" and I
14 scared, because of what I saw, but nobody touched me,
15 and they are pulling at his tongue and that they were
16 doing different things. That is what I saw with my own
18 Q. Let me stop you for a minute. When you say you saw them
19 beating Mr. Susic right outside the door of tunnel 9, who
20 exactly, if you remember, did you see --
21 A. Right next to the door, I know exactly, I remember.
22 Q. Who exactly did you see beating Mr. Susic?
23 A. I saw Zara behind his back, he was right against the
24 wall. This is facing number 9, so this is when you were
25 looking at number 9, so that was to the right, that was
1in the corner itself, because I was walking back in,
2 because this guard was taking me back in, so I was
3 walking inside. I was outside. So Zara was right
4 behind him in the corner, next to him was Zenga, and on
5 the other side was Focak, and this is where I came and
6 when I was already past him, the door had been closed
7 but Focak opened it, one of the guards opened it, and
8 I was very afraid to pass, and the door was open and
9 Zenga asked Susic, "do you know this guy who just passed
10 by?", and he said, "yes, I know him, he is such and
11 butcher". That is how it was.
12 Q. Sir, let me go back. You indicated that when you first
13 saw them and you were farther away, before you were told
14 to go back into the tunnel, you saw them beating
15 Mr. Susic?
16 A. Yes, I saw that.
17 Q. Who exactly was beating Mr. Susic when you were able to
18 witness this event?
19 A. I saw Zenga and Focak.
20 Q. Thank you. Then you indicate that when you went by them
21 on your way to the tunnel, they were, I believe you
22 said, putting things under his nails.
23 MS. McMURREY: Your Honour, I am going to object. That is
24 a mischaracterisation of the evidence. I believe he
25 said that they were pulling at his tongue and she has
1added something he has not said. I have to object to
2 her testifying and creating evidence.
3 MS. McHENRY: If I mischaracterised I am sorry, it was just
4 based on my memory. I will ask the witness.
5 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: He never said that.
6 MS. McHENRY: I am sorry. Who was it that you saw --
7 A. I saw Zenga, the tongue was outside and there was some
8 kind of a wire or something, I do not know, maybe there
9 was some kind of a needle or something, I do not know,
10 because I passed and I was like a foot away, 20
11 centimetres away. Zara was here. When you look at it,
12 he was in the corner, this is where Zenga was
13 (indicates), and then over on the other side next to me
14 was Focak.
15 Q. Who was it who was doing something with the wire and
16 Mr. Susic's tongue?
17 A. Zenga, that was the wire and the tongue, and that was at
18 the moment when I arrived.
19 Q. Did you yourself see any other mistreatment of Mr. Susic
20 and if not, you can just say that is all you personally
22 A. I saw inside, because the guards would walk inside,
23 Delic would for instance come in and beat him all the
24 time and other guards would come in and beat him. The
25 man was very resilient, because it is hard to believe
1how much he endured. He was all black, he was black
2 like coal, and then down at the bottom of number 9, this
3 is again what I saw with my own eyes, Zara came and said
4 that Delic told him that he had to beat him, that Zara
5 had to beat him, so he beat him and there was another
6 guy, but I know that young man's father's name is Dusan,
7 so they had to beat him. Then this Macic would come and
8 call him out and they were taking him out, I do not know
9 where, but when he would come back, he said that he was
10 taken to look for this radio transmitter, since some
11 foundations or some structure or something, I do not
12 know what they were saying, this Macic, and I think that
13 he was beaten for like 24 hours in a stretch with short
14 breaks, and then one day he was beaten, he came back and
15 he was all --
16 MS. McMURREY: Your Honour --
17 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: You object to the witness testifying?
18 MS. McMURREY: I am just asking that the proper predicate
19 be laid, because he is saying that he was beaten for 24
20 hours, he was beaten this, he was taken her, and he has
21 no personal knowledge of that. If we could just
22 differentiate between what he personally saw again and
23 what he has heard happened outside. There are two
24 different things. I am asking that the proper predicate
25 be laid for this testimony.
1JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: About how long he was beaten?
2 MS. McMURREY: Did he see this? He said the only thing he
3 saw was inside the tunnel and what he passed going back
4 into the tunnel with Zara, Zenga and Focak outside, and
5 now he is talking about all these extended other
7 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: You want to know how he knew he was
8 beaten for 24 hours, is it?
9 MS. McMURREY: Yes, your Honour, thank you.
10 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Ask him how he got to know he was
11 beaten for 24 hours.
12 MS. McHENRY: Let me go back for a minute to begin with.
13 Did you yourself see Mr. Delic beat Mr. Susic inside the
15 A. Yes, I did. Yes, I saw it and when I say I said he was
16 beaten, what I mean is I saw him being beaten several
17 times. Everyone was beating him in pretty much the same
18 way, a kick in the ribcage, in the back. When you said
19 that he was beaten but I did not see it, that is not
20 right, I did see it a number of times and I saw --
21 outside I saw it once, I was 20 centimetres away from
22 him, but I saw constantly being taken out and being
23 brought back and every time he was wet as if he had been
24 hosed down. I was completely wet from sweat from
25 everything, and about this Macic, this Macic came to the
1door several times, two or three times, and would call
2 him out and bring him out and then Susic, when he would
3 come back, would say that he was taken to such and such
4 a place.
5 Q. Thank you, sir. Sir, what finally happened to Mr. Susic?
6 A. If I need to say every time this one beat him five times
7 this day and the other one beat him so many times the
8 other day, I would not be done in five days. He was
9 just mistreated a lot, and I can say that we were all
10 surprised that he survived, that he could go on living,
11 that he could breathe. Every time we thought that he
12 would not. His mouth was swollen, he was disfigured.
13 The colour of his skin was this colour here of the desk.
14 Q. What finally happened to Mr. Susic, Mr. J?
15 A. Finally he was called out and then I did not see with my
16 own eyes, but I heard the beating, the blows, and
17 finally he came back. It was Delic who called him out
18 and I heard those blunt blows that he was being beaten.
19 He was a very brave man, so only rarely could you hear
20 him moan very quietly. When he came back, he was
21 totally wet, he went to the bottom of number 9, and in
22 maybe about an hour or an hour and a half the people who
23 were closer to him said he had died. Then someone came,
24 I do not remember who it was, and said that he should be
25 moved further forward, and I think he was just in front
1of me, right at the beginning of the tunnel, just above
2 me somewhere, and he lay there dead. I think it was all
3 night, and then the next day he was taken out, and when
4 he was taken out he was put in a kind of hole, a part of
5 a manhole or something, and he was put behind it, but
6 that day, the day he was carried out, again a guard came
7 for me, and took me, the command was here and then there
8 was another building here with some kind of warehouses
9 (indicates). The building was facing this way towards
10 the wall, but as far as I can remember, there were two
11 or three steps. I was sitting there, I think it was
12 Sejo, a guard who took me out to clean this rifle, they
13 gave me this rifle to clean, and Macic came by --
14 Q. Please continue.
15 A. I was sitting there, in front of that building, they
16 gave me this rifle to clean and I remember well it was
17 fine and Macic came out of this building I was sitting
18 in front of, there was the command building, the
19 infirmary and this building and I was sitting here and
20 he came out of this building just in front of me, and he
21 was carrying a white sheet, a kind of sheet in his hands
22 and then he said to me, "come with me", so I put down
23 the rifle and followed him. I came to where he had been
24 thrown out, and when we got there, I saw that there were
25 all flies on him, he was on his back and I covered him
1with this sheet and then in my subconscious, I said,
2 "look at this, his neighbour, Macic, is covering him
3 now that he is dead". I never visited either of them,
4 but I heard that they were next-door neighbours.
5 Q. Sir, let me just clarify. Whose body was it who had
6 flies all over it and you were asked to cover the body?
7 A. Susic, it was Susic's body.
8 Q. You indicated that you saw some of what happened with
9 Mr. Milosevic, if I understood you correctly in the
10 beginning. Is that correct, did you see anything that
11 happened with Mr. Milosevic?
12 A. Mr. Milosevic was brought there before me, I think, he
13 was in number 9 before I got there. I know that he was
14 at the bottom, he was not close to me, he was further
15 down in number 9. He was told, so I would hear when the
16 guards came in, that he was apparently a sniper, that he
17 had a sniper, and they started beating him and then one
18 night -- they beat him regularly.
19 Q. When you say they beat him regularly, would you please
20 just tell us the names of anyone that you yourself saw
21 beat Mr. Milosevic?
22 A. Delic beat him, the guards who were there beat him, they
23 would come in and beat him, and then on one occasion
24 they took him somewhere, him and Rajko Djordjic. They
25 did not come back all night, I think, and then we
1thought maybe they had got killed, but they returned the
2 next day. When they came back, they were shivering.
3 There was not a part of their body that was not
4 shivering. When you behead a chicken and then it starts
5 shivering, they were shivering like that and they
6 stank. We were living in filth anyway, but when they
7 came in, it was even worse. There was such a stench,
8 somebody had some extra underwear, and the things that
9 were on them were thrown out by the guards and then they
10 said that they had been put in a manhole, that the water
11 was right up to here, that the guards had hit them with
12 stones, if their heads appeared, and then somebody
13 called Makaron was above heard, he said excuse me, but he
14 pissed on him.
15 Then some Arab journalists came later and Delic
16 took Rajko and Milosevic out, saying this one was a
17 sniper and the other was a Vojvoda, a Duke and they lent
18 them against the wall, the door of number 9 was open,
19 the journalists were right there on the concrete at the
20 very entrance to the left, and Milosevic was leaning
21 against the door inside, next to the steps and then they
22 said "this was a sniper" and they would hit him with
23 this butt and these journalist reporters were filming it
25 Q. When was the last time you saw Mr. Milosevic?
1A. The last time I saw Mr. Milosevic was when he was
2 killed. He was killed and put also close to this local
3 which we used to relieve ourselves, we were taken out
4 there. When we were taken there to urinate, we all saw
5 him there lying next to this hole, lying dead and all of
6 us could see him, all the detainees could see him.
7 Again, his whole body was yellow, the same colour as
8 Susic's, and that was the last time I saw him. I never
9 saw him again.
10 Q. Sir, did Mr. Mucic ever come to the tunnel?
11 A. I saw Mr. Mucic in front of the tunnel. For instance,
12 I was in the tunnel and I was due to be transferred to
13 number 6 -- not number 6, to the infirmary, and then
14 Mucic would call us out one by one, there were two
15 different regimes, systems. One group was to stand
16 here, another group over here, Mucic was here, Zara was
17 with me and then as we came out, we were coming out as
18 our name was being called out, and then he would say,
19 "you stand there, you there, you there, you there"
20 when they had divided us up into these two groups -- no,
21 no. Mucic was there when we were taken out of number 9
22 and we were taken to number 6. My group, the 15 of us,
23 were taken to number 6 and another group was returned
24 back to number 9, and that was when Mucic called our
25 names out and Zara was with him.
1Q. Let me stop you. Is that the only time you saw Mr. Mucic
2 ever come to the entrance of the tunnel, or were there
3 also other occasions when Mr. Mucic would come to the
4 entrance of the tunnel?
5 A. I saw him one more time, when Mucic and Delic took me
6 personally out and asked me -- to ask me whether I spoke
7 to Zara, and I said I did. Then they asked me who among
8 the women had slept in your house, I said somebody
9 called Vesna, she was a Croatian young girl who would
10 sleep there sometimes, so did Mira sometimes, she also
11 worked for me and she also had a room up there. They
12 asked me whether I had anything with them before the war
13 and I said I did not. Then I got angry and Zara was
14 standing there and laughing and then I said, "I know who
15 must have told you that, it must have been Zara" and
16 they did not say anything, they started laughing and
17 that was it. When they asked me that, Delic raised the
18 baseball bat up as if he was going to hit me, but he did
19 not. I just said, "I know who must have told you" and
20 when I said it was Zara, they started laughing.
21 Q. Sir, you have previously mentioned -- let me go forward,
23 Sir, was there a time when the Red Cross came to
24 the camp?
25 A. At one point, the Red Cross came, but this was somewhere
1around mid August. Most of the torture was just then,
2 that is before the Red Cross came, but when the
3 Red Cross came, that was the worst period for us in the
4 camp. The International Red Cross came, saying that the
5 guards should not be present, but only representatives
6 of the Red Cross and the prisoners. However, something
7 happened, what happened was that they would ask us
8 whether anyone was killed, what our food was like, and
9 so on, but when this Frenchman came in -- I remember he
10 was French and there was a woman with him -- he could
11 not speak our language and we could not understand each
12 other and he would show this woman with him the
13 bloodstains on the wall.
14 Then there was the killing of Milosevic and Susic,
15 and those beatings. Then we simply decided to tell them
16 the truth whether we lived or not, believing that nobody
17 would hear us, because they said they were the
18 International Red Cross and nobody would know what we
19 said and be free to say everything.
20 We told them about the killing of Susic and
21 Milosevic and this French man saw this and the woman who
22 was with him said, "I should like to sit next to the
23 door and open the door to bring the fresh air in" and to
24 register us, and then she took down our names. We told
25 her we got five grammes of bread each, that we did not
1have enough water. She saw the conditions we were
2 living in and suddenly when they left, when they left
3 us, they went on to number 6 and they said they would
4 come back in two days. However, when they went to
5 number 6, all of us were taken out after maybe 15 or 20
6 minutes. Delic, he said, "all of you come out for some
7 sunning". Delic and the guards, and then Delic told the
8 guards, some of them were in sneakers, and he told them
9 to go and put on shoes and there was a soldier, an
10 Albanian, who was working there as a cook, he stayed
11 behind for some reason, he was a cook and he told him to
12 go and get him "you know what" and then he brought
13 baseball bat. We had to sit with our back towards the
14 walls with our hands behind our heads, this was about 20
15 metres from number 9 towards the gate.
16 In the meantime, they posted a couple of guards
17 between number 9 and number 6, and while they were still
18 in number 6, we were beaten up so badly, I think there
19 were 14 guards, and then they went by, hitting us with
20 baseball bats and their boots, they were going up and
21 down the whole row, so that people were urinating blood,
22 maybe there were only five or six who did not, because
23 they would kick us in the kidney area in the back, and
24 after that, we went back in and then the next day we
25 were again taken out for sunbathing, as they would say.
1We were naked to the waist, and they would see what
2 bruises each one of us had, and then a day or two later,
3 the International Red Cross came and as soon as we saw
4 them, we all went numb. We were terrified, because we
5 thought it would have been better if they had not come,
6 because we thought we would be beaten again. Then they
7 came in, this woman called us out by name for us to come
8 up to the door and then go back. Probably she wanted to
9 see whether we could walk or not.
10 Then Veljo Kuljanin, his stomach was perforated.
11 Some people could not even get up, and some of us tried
12 hard to behave normally, fearing more beatings, and they
13 asked us whether we had been beaten and we said no,
14 because we thought that if we said yes, they would beat
15 us all over again. That is how it was.
16 Q. Did conditions in the camp improve after the visit of
17 the Red Cross?
18 A. After the Red Cross visit, they did not beat us up,
19 I mean there were no people beaten to death. We were
20 mistreated, but not -- at least while I was there, or
21 rather in the building that I was in, no one was killed
22 after that.
23 Q. May I just clarify, I understand that there were no
24 people beaten to death, but when you say you were
25 mistreated even after the Red Cross came, what do you
2 A. They would come and kick a couple, then tomorrow he
3 would kick two or three, he would slap two or three.
4 That is what I imply when I say that they did mistreat
6 Q. After the Red Cross visit, was there a time when you
7 were moved away from the tunnel?
8 A. I was moved from the tunnel to the infirmary at one
9 point, the infirmary which was across the way to the
10 command building.
11 Q. About how long after the visit of the Red Cross, if you
12 can say, was it when you were moved to the infirmary?
13 Was it a couple of days, a couple of weeks? Are you
14 able to say?
15 A. I think it was after a couple of weeks, something like
16 that. I do not know. I do not know exactly when I was
17 transferred. I think it could have been in September.
18 Q. Can you describe what conditions were like in the
20 A. In the infirmary, conditions were better than in number
21 9. For instance there were beds, there were some
22 blankets too that you could cover yourself with, so
23 conditions were better.
24 Q. Were any prisoners beaten in the infirmary -- were any
25 prisoners from the infirmary beaten during the time you
1stayed in the infirmary?
2 A. Yes. For instance, when I came to the infirmary, there
3 was somebody called Srdo Gligorevic there with a
4 fractured arm and some teeth knocked out. While I was
5 staying in the infirmary, Kemo came. I know he was from
6 Fojnica, because there were two guards from Kemo. This
7 one was from Fojnica, and he took out somebody called
8 Pero, Kemo and Camdzic took out Pero Stojanovic and took
9 him to the gate and this Kemo who came to the infirmary
10 two days before that, told Pero, "when your wife comes
11 to visit you for the first time" --
12 Q. Just for now, I am just going to ask you about what you
13 yourself saw and what you yourself heard. You indicate
14 that they came and took Pero. What, if anything, could
15 you see about Pero's condition when he came back to the
17 A. When he was brought back, I personally saw that two ribs
18 were fractured, he could not move, he could not walk.
19 This was in the daytime, and then Camdzic, who had
20 broken those ribs, Kemo and Camdzic were the ones who
21 had beaten him, and it was Camdzic who had broken those
22 ribs and I know because that evening he came back to the
23 infirmary and said "look, I really did not intend to hit
24 you so badly, but here you are, here is chess for you to
25 play, but do not let the others see". So he said,
1"I apologise, I did not intend to hit you so badly and
2 did not know I would break your ribs. Here is a game of
3 chess for you but do not let the others see".
4 Q. Okay. How long did you stay in the infirmary
6 A. I think it was about a month, 20 days, a month, 20 days,
7 a month.
8 Q. Then when you left the infirmary, where did you go?
9 A. When I left the infirmary I was taken back to number 9,
10 and then again, from number 9, I was taken to number 6.
11 That was when the list was made and that was when I was
12 transferred to number 6.
13 Q. Can you describe the conditions in hangar number 6?
14 A. In hangar number 6 the conditions were better than in
15 number 9. There was no special conditions, there was a
16 concrete floor, there was a bucket to be used as a
17 toilet next to the door, people were sitting in a
18 circle, the prisoners, but in any event, it was better
19 than in number 9, slightly better. It was not good
20 anywhere, but it was better. It was not as bad as in
21 number 9, it was not so smelly as it was in number 9.
22 Q. Mr. J, you previously indicated that you sometimes were
23 called out to do chores such as pick up cigarette
24 butts. Besides picking up cigarette butts, was there
25 any other task that you were occasionally asked to do in
2 A. Within the camp, I was ordered to slaughter a lamb or a
3 calf that they may have needed, and I did that on a
4 number of occasions, I slaughtered a lamb. There were
5 some reporters, some photographers there. This was --
6 I slaughtered a lamb and a calf, that is what I did.
7 Those were my assignments, also to collect cigarette
8 butts and to pluck the grass between the asphalt and the
9 wall and to clean up sometimes.
10 Q. Do you know, sir, were any sheep slaughtered for the
11 festival of Bajram in Celebici?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Whose sheep were they?
14 A. Smaja's sheep.
15 Q. Because you did these chores, sir, did that give you
16 better access to see what was going on in the prison and
17 to the guards than most other prisoners had?
18 A. I think so, yes.
19 Q. Were there occasions besides what you have testified
20 about, were there any other occasions when you would see
21 Mr. Mucic in the camp, even if you yourself did not talk
22 to him?
23 A. I would see him in the camp. I did not talk to him
24 much, there were not any opportunities for me to talk to
25 him. In the infirmary, once or twice, he would come in
1while I was there, but no, we did not communicate
2 directly, but I would see him.
3 Q. Did you ever see or hear Mr. Mucic in the camp at night?
4 A. Yes, I did.
5 Q. Do you remember any special -- do you remember anything
6 about the times when you saw Mr. Mucic in the camp at
8 A. I remember one occasion, it was not actually me
9 personally, a small group was taken out and beaten next
10 to the wall, and one of the prisoners called Andjelko,
11 he had a watch on him and he hid it, it is the only
12 watch that was there, that was available. Mucic would
13 come by, we would hear his car screech and he said,
14 "what are you doing?", and then the guards would say
15 "they are doing gym" and he would say, "take
16 inside, do not beat them", something to that effect.
17 Q. Did you ever see Mr. Mucic with a video camera, sir?
18 A. Yes, I did.
19 MS. McHENRY: Your Honours, if we can now -- the
20 Prosecution is going to show this witness an excerpt
21 from a video and I would ask that we go into private
22 session for this and that in fact the blinds be closed,
23 because I do not think that anyone from the public or
24 media should be permitted to see what is on the video.
25 I can explain it more, your Honours, if we go into
2 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Let us go into private session. Kindly
3 inform the engineers to go into private session.
4 MS. McHENRY: I would ask that the technical services make
5 us into private session, please.
6 (In closed session)
13 Page 7508 redacted - in closed session
13 Page 7509 redacted - in closed session
13 Page 7510 redacted - in closed session
24 (In open session)
25 MS. McHENRY: Sir, you indicated previously that you were
1friends with Mr. Smajo, a butcher. Did Mr. Smajo ever say
2 anything to you about the treatment of the prisoners and
3 any efforts he made regarding the treatments of the
5 A. For instance, when Smajo first came to the camp he asked
6 for me and the guards demanded he give them a lamb and
7 then they would allow him to see me. He gave them a
8 lamb and then he was allowed to see me and Smajo told me
9 of that. He said, and then he said my name, "it would
10 have been better that you all kill yourselves rather
11 than come here. I am going to Zejnil tomorrow, I am
12 going to tell him what is going on here, what they are
13 doing to the people", and things like that. And when he
14 was talking this there were still the guards present
15 there and he said "these are Chetniks" and he said "what
16 Chetniks?", he said, "I am going to strip myself and
17 join them. It would have been better that you all
18 committed suicide than to have been brought here and
19 I am going to go to Zejnil tomorrow and I am going to
20 tell him what is going on here". The next day he said
21 he had been there, I do not know if he did, but he said
22 he went -- he said that, he said, "this is good in
23 comparison to what is going to happen when the Muslims
24 and the balijas take it to one another". I do not know
25 what he meant by that.
1Q. Did Smajo indicate whether or not he was able to see
2 Mr. Zejnil?
3 MR. O'SULLIVAN: Your Honour, that has been asked and
5 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Go ahead with his statement. Certainly
6 do not tell him what happened.
7 MS. McHENRY: I am sorry, your Honour.
8 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: I think the answer that he has told us,
9 if you look at the transcript, that when he returned he
10 did not tell you what happened.
11 MS. McHENRY: Your Honour, if I may, I may try to clarify
12 that. I think there may be some ambiguity in the
14 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: In his own answer?
15 MS. McHENRY: Yes, your Honour. Including when I look at
16 the transcript. I do not want to say what the witness
17 says. If I may just clarify the matter?
18 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: You will find in the transcript.
19 MS. McHENRY: Your Honour, again I do not know if it is an
20 interpretive issue or if in fact there is no issue, but
21 I think there may be some ambiguity in the language of
22 the answer, so I would just like to clarify it, if
23 I may.
24 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Repeat the question.
25 MS. McHENRY: Sir, did Mr. Smajo indicate to you whether or
1not he had been to see Mr. Zejnil?
2 MR. O'SULLIVAN: Your Honour, that is precisely the answer he
3 has given. The witness said "I do not know if he did".
4 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Whether he saw him.
5 MR. O'SULLIVAN: Right.
6 MS. McHENRY: Sir, did Mr. Smajo say whether or not he had
7 been able to see Mr. Zejnil or not?
8 A. I am going to repeat it. Smajo said "I am going to go
9 tomorrow morning to Zejnil and I am going to tell
10 everything that is being done to the people here". He
11 was like a man prone to panicking and he said "I am
12 going to go" and that day he left. I do not know if he
13 went to him or not, but the next time when he came back
14 here, a day or two later, when he came to see the sheep,
15 "I went", he said, "there was no use because I
16 know what is going to happen when" -- that is, he said,
17 "I did go but nothing is happening". This is what he
18 told me, "this is nothing compared to when the Muslims
19 and the balijas start fighting each others". I do not
20 know if he went or not, but that is what he said.
21 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: That is his answer.
22 JUDGE JAN: Who are "balijas"?
23 MS. McHENRY: Sir, do you know what the term "balija"
24 used for?
25 A. I do not know. That is what they use in their
2 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: He has already said that he did not
3 know what that meant.
4 MS. McHENRY: Sir, did I understand you correctly, that you
5 yourself do not know whether or not Mr. Smajo saw
6 Mr. Zejnil, but that Mr. Smajo told you that he had seen
7 Mr. Zejnil? Did I understand you correctly?
8 A. That is right, that is exactly. I do not know if he saw
9 him or not; how could I.
10 Q. Thank you. Sir, do you know who Mr. Zejnil is?
11 A. I saw Mr. Zejnil several times, even before the war,
12 I saw him several times, when he would come to Konjic.
13 I saw him several times when he would sit in a cafe, he
14 had his bodyguards or something. I know that he worked
15 in Austria, in Germany, that he was a businessman there.
16 Q. Do you know the last name --
17 A. I know his family, his relatives. I know his youngest
18 brother the best of all, he is a bit younger than I am,
19 he came to my restaurant at least 100 times. That is
20 the youngest of his brothers.
21 Q. First of all, what is the last name of Mr. Zejnil?
22 A. Delalic.
23 Q. What are the names of the brothers that you know,
24 Mr. Zejnil's brothers?
25 A. Dzafo and Sefik.
1Q. Did you ever see Mr. Zejnil at the camp?
2 A. Yes, I saw him, I think twice.
3 Q. When you saw Mr. Zejnil, who was he with and, if you
4 know, what was he doing?
5 A. He was in front of the command building. I saw him
6 twice there, it was when I was out of -- I also saw his
7 brother Dzafo once, once or twice. He was walking, he
8 was on foot behind number 9, towards kind of a hangar
9 that there was, some kind of a hangar or maybe a storage
10 building behind number 9, and I saw him once, I was on
11 the grass in front of the infirmary and Dzafo walked
12 by. Dzafo was -- had never had anything with prisoners,
13 no conflicts or anything. I do not know what he was
14 doing there.
15 Q. When you saw Mr. Zejnil in front of the command building,
16 who, if anyone, was he with?
17 A. I think that Pavo was there probably, I know I was
18 slaughtering a lamb, because he was supposed to come and
19 I do not know who else was supposed to come, and so
20 I was slaughtering a lamb there and it was towards the
21 evening and that is when I saw him.
22 Q. Mr. J, who had authority to release prisoners from
24 A. I think they had some kind of agreement among themselves
25 to release prisoners, and Zejnil and Pavo must have been
1connected to that, and later Jasna was also part of that
3 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: He has not answered the question. Who
4 had authority, that is the question.
5 MS. McHENRY: Let me ask a more specific question, maybe
6 that will help, sir.
7 A. I do not understand the question, who was in charge of
9 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Yes, that is the question. Who was in
11 A. They would just bring a piece of paper and they would
12 call us out and they would say such and such, such and
13 such, such and such.
14 MS. McHENRY: Sir, where did you go when you left --
15 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Is that the answer to your question?
16 MS. McHENRY: Yes, your Honour, I believe later I may go --
17 okay. I may later go back to this and ask the question
18 a different way, but for now, I will move forward.
19 Where did you go when you left hangar 6?
20 A. After I left hangar 6, I was transferred to Musala, to
21 the sports hall in Konjic. This is just outside of the
22 downtown area. That was the Musala, and that was known
23 as the sports hall at Musala, that was part of the
24 school compound.
25 Q. How long approximately did you stay at Musala?
1A. I do not know, I think I stayed there maybe a month,
2 about a month. I do not know if it was a full month.
3 Q. Sir, do you know when it was that you were released from
4 detention entirely?
5 A. Yes, I do remember.
6 Q. When was that, sir?
7 A. I was released completely -- actually, I do not remember
8 the exact date -- but I do. I was released on
9 17th November, 17th day of the 11th month.
10 Q. Okay. Sir, who was Mr. Mucic's --
11 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Of which year?
12 MS. McHENRY: You are exactly right, sir.
13 Sir, what year was it that you were released?
14 A. 1992.
15 Q. Sir, who was Mr. Mucic's boss?
16 A. I think it was Zejnil.
17 Q. Sir, I am going to -- let me now, you indicate that you
18 were released on 17th November. Can you describe what
19 happened to you --
20 A. Yes, 17th day of the 11th month.
21 Q. Can you please describe what happened to you when you
22 were finally released? In other words, can you please
23 describe the circumstances surrounding your release.
24 Explain what happened when you were released.
25 A. The circumstances of my own release were very strange.
1For instance, when I was released, Mucic gave me some
2 kind of a release document and the very date of my
3 release was there, there was actually no -- it was not
4 that date, it was an older date. Even though I was
5 released on the 17th, I think that there was -- the
6 month was the 10th or something, but then I never looked
7 at it again after I was released.
8 Also on one occasion, it happened that Ismet came
9 and the International Red Cross and we prisoners were
10 supposed to be called out, so there would be like a roll
11 call to see if we were all there, but Ismet came and he
12 was very, very angry for some reason and he said, "I was
13 called down here by Pavo, the International Red Cross is
14 coming and he should not be on that list" and I did not
15 know why. Then the prisoner started saying "well, he is
16 going to be killed because they are not putting him on a
17 list" and then Ismet ordered this Marko Draganic and
18 Momo Djordjic to compile a list of prisoners
19 alphabetically. When they came to me and I said,
20 "please put me in there so that I could at least be on
21 the list and I could be read out", but Ismet said, "no,
22 Pavo called from Celebici to say you are not to be
23 included in that list for the International Red Cross",
24 so when the ICRC came and said "is there anybody else
25 whose name has not been read out?" and I kept silent.
1It was all very strange to me.
2 So there was this other Nugic and he would come
3 every night for the last three or four nights before my
4 release. He would come like at 1.00 after midnight to
5 this school building and would huddle with the other
6 guards and he was saying, "where is the money? Okay,
7 just give us 5,000 marks and you go free, you will go
8 immediately, you are going to be home" and I would just
9 say "I do not have any, I do not have any". On one
10 occasion he said, "just so you know, Pavo sent me"
11 Pavo was not there, Agan who came. He also brought
12 another man with him, a man whom I had never seen
13 before, whom I did not know, and he said he was from
14 Musocolovic colony and he was in charge of the
15 exchanges, prisoner exchanges and he said, "there will
16 be no problem, you will get home right away". He said,
17 "think it over until the next night" and I was
18 about it, and he would come the next night.
19 Also I had a case when my own sister came to visit
20 me and they were asking for money and the guards had
21 brought me out and he came out too, so my sister will be
22 standing there, over here with me, and he would ask for
23 money. The price came down to 500 marks, then just,
24 "give me whatever you can".
25 Then from that I started seeing that he was making
1arrangements with other guards for me to be taken out,
2 so this Zio came to this room where I was locked up and
3 he said, "think about it, tell them that you have some
4 money and tell them that you will give them the money".
5 They were just bothering me like that all the time. The
6 last day when I was there, they did not know about him,
7 whether he was coming or not, and he said, "this is the
8 last night tonight. I am going to come again and if you
9 do not come, I will treat you differently". However,
10 thank God, I left Celebici that night and he said that
11 he would come to Musala that night, so Delic came in a
12 van, took five or six of us, took us to the infirmary,
13 and then from the infirmary we were released.
14 Q. Let me go back a minute, sir, and just make sure it is
15 clear. I think there may be an interpretation issue.
16 Is it the case that you left Musala for Celebici that
17 night, that Mr. Delic came to Musala, took you and then
18 brought you to the infirmary in Celebici; is that
20 A. Yes, to Celebici, that was the daytime, it was the
21 morning, it was daytime in the morning. When he brought
22 me there, Delic, he put me into the infirmary and there
23 were 50 or 60 people in the infirmary. There were no
24 more beds there, there were just some blankets, so there
25 were about 50 people there, maybe. While I was still in
1the infirmary, Zara came and said "Pavo is calling for
2 you to go to the command building", so then I went into
3 the command building and when I entered Pavo was sitting
4 at a desk and Delic was walking up and down in the
5 hallway and while -- as I was walking in, there was this
6 man called Jasmin Guska whom I know very, very well,
7 because he was a vet before the war and then later he
8 became a commander of the police -- he was a chief of
9 the police.
10 In the meantime, he arrived too with his body
11 guard of Rasko, whom I also know very well, because he
12 had a cafe, so Guska, Pavo were there and ten or fifteen
13 minutes later, a French person came in, a man from the
14 International Red Cross, and a young woman who was his
15 interpreter and they asked -- I do not know what they
16 were asking there, but in the room I was sitting here
17 and Pavo was over there and Guska was sitting next to
18 him, the Frenchman was sitting here and the interpreter
19 was there (indicates). Delic was out in the hallway, he
20 did not come in. He would peek in but not come in.
21 Then some kind of argument started there, because this
22 Guska was a vet and he would inspect the meat in my own
23 slaughterhouse for ten, twelve years, every morning or
24 every other morning or every third morning, and he would
25 come almost every morning and have coffee with him, you
1know. I never had any conflicts with anybody, I never
2 belonged to any political party, I just minded my own
3 business, so when he entered in and Pavo was here, Guska
4 asked Pavo, "why is this person here? Why did I bring
5 you over here? He was at Musala. My mother is crying
6 after him, I brought him two packs of cigarettes, it was
7 Drina, manufactured in Sarajevo, and I said, this is all
8 I have right now, do you need anything, do you need
9 trousers or shirt or underwear, I will bring you
10 whatever", and then Pavo said that he would bring here
11 because he would needed to be bringing trenches.
12 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: What happened then?
13 A. Then he said "we brought him here to dig trenches"
14 JUDGE JAN: Ms McHenry, how is it relevant? He is your
15 witness, you have to stop him.
16 MS. McHENRY: Your Honour, I can either start now or after
17 the break --
18 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: After the break we will try not to have
19 so much time wasted.
20 MS. McHENRY: Yes, your Honour, I will make the questions
21 more -- I will lead the witness more. Thank you.
22 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: You know where we have stopped, so that
23 we will know where we start.
24 MS. McHENRY: Yes, your Honour, and I will also tell
25 your Honours and Defence counsel, the Prosecution only
1has a few more minutes.
2 (4.00 pm)
3 (A short break)
4 (4.30 pm)
5 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: You may proceed, Ms McHenry.
6 MS. McHENRY: Thank you, your Honours. Before I begin, let
7 me just note for the court and for Defence counsel, we
8 will be filing a formal, I believe, correction to the
9 transcript, but I have been informed by the
10 interpretation service that when the witness was
11 describing what happened to Mr. Susic he had said in the
12 Serbo-Croatian language that needles were being put
13 under Mr. Susic's nails, but that was not interpreted
14 into English. We will be doing a formal correction
15 later and I will also advise the court and Defence
16 counsel that I am going to --
17 MS. McMURREY: Your Honour, excuse me, I do not believe
18 that that is an interpretation problem. I think if she
19 wants to, while she still has the witness on the stand,
20 put that into evidence then that is one thing, but to
21 try to change the testimony of a witness by a
22 translation problem, I believe that it would be better
23 done from the witness's mouth.
24 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: I believe there is a doubt. Perhaps
25 you put the question to him again.
1MS. McMURREY: Thank you.
2 MS. McHENRY: I am happy to do that. I will note that the
3 Serbo-Croatian version which is in evidence does contain
4 this, but I will certainly be happy to -- sir, do you
5 remember whether or not in your answer, or in your
6 description of what Mr. Susic, what you saw being done to
7 Mr. Susic, did you say that you saw needles being put
8 under his nails?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Thank you. Mr. J, I am going to ask you a few very
11 brief, very specific questions, and it may be at a later
12 time someone such as the Defence attorneys or someone
13 else may ask you to explain them, but for now, I am just
14 going to ask for very short, very simple answers to some
15 very specific questions. Okay? In particular, when you
16 were released from Celebici, just physically, where did
17 you go? You do not have to say how you got there, you
18 just have to say physically when you left the camp,
19 where were you taken?
20 A. When I left the camp, I was taken to Zoran Cecez's house
21 in Donje Selo.
22 Q. And then again from Mr. Cecez's house, where were you
24 A. From Mr. Cecez's house, I was taken directly to Kiseljak,
25 near Kobiljaca.
1Q. Who took you first to Mr. Cecez's house and then to
3 A. I was taken by Mr. Mucic to Cecez's house and Zarko
4 Mrkajic was also in the car.
5 Q. Who took you to Kiseljak after you left Mr. Cecez's
7 A. Mr. Mucic took me there.
8 Q. Did you give anyone any money in connection with your
9 release and transfer?
10 A. When we got under Kobiljaca, I gave 200 marks and Zara
11 also gave something.
12 Q. Who did you give the 200 marks to?
13 A. I gave it to Pavo Mucic.
14 Q. Had Mr. Mucic asked you for this money or did you just
15 give it to him on your own?
16 A. Zara said, "we have to give him 200 marks" and so
17 them to him.
18 Q. Did Mr. Mucic ever ask you for any money or did he never
19 ask you for any money?
20 A. He never asked me in so many words, but when we were at
21 Zoran's house --
22 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: He never asked you for any money, that
23 will be fine.
24 MS. McHENRY: Who physically did you hand the money to when
25 you gave over --
1A. To him, to Mucic.
2 Q. Thank you. Sir, when you were released, did you get a
3 release document?
4 A. When I was released, I did receive discharge papers.
5 Q. Who actually gave you, who handed you your release
7 A. I was given the release papers in Celebici, and Mucic
8 gave them to me out of his pocket.
9 Q. Thank you. Sir, when you were at Mr. Cecez's house,
10 after Mr. Mucic took you to Mr. Cecez's house but before
11 he took you to Kiseljak, did Mr. Mucic say anything to
12 you concerning whether or not you and Zara and the other
13 people had to leave at a particular time?
14 A. Yes, he said, "we have to go at 4.00 because Zejnil
15 so. Zejnil called me and he said we had to go at 4.00,
16 4.00 in the morning", and that is what we did.
17 Q. With the usher's assistance, I would ask that an exhibit
19 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.
20 MS. McHENRY: I think there is some ambiguity, let me
21 clarify. Sir, is it the case, did I understand you
22 correctly, that Mr. Mucic told you that Mr. Zejnil had
23 called Mr. Mucic and said you had to leave by 4.00, is
24 that correct? You have to say yes, sir, for the
2 Q. With the usher's assistance, this previously has been
3 shown to Defence counsel, or copies provided with
4 respect to the release document. I am not going to ask
5 that this be placed on the ELMO, because this is a
6 protected witness. This is for the witness and this is
7 for the judges. May I just have the number, madam
9 THE REGISTRAR: Prosecution Exhibit 180.
10 MS. McHENRY: Sir, I am showing you what has been marked
11 for identification purposes as Prosecution Exhibit 180.
12 Sir, do you recognise this, and if so, can you say what
13 it is?
14 A. Yes. This is the release document.
15 Q. Is this the release document given to you by Mr. Mucic,
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Sir, with respect to the date on this document, it says
19 you were being released, is that the correct date?
20 A. No.
21 Q. You have already testified about the correct date so
22 I will not ask you about that now, sir, and again
23 I would ask the usher's assistance? Again, this has
24 previously been given to Defence counsel.
25 JUDGE JAN: Something is not very clear to me. His
1movements have been restricted to Donje Selo? He does
2 not belong to Donje Selo, he belongs to Bradina.
3 MS. McHENRY: Yes, your Honour, but if I may give you an
4 answer without giving evidence -- maybe I can ask him,
5 that would be better, your Honour.
6 Sir, is it the case that, if you know, were Serbs
7 allowed to go to Bradina after the attack?
8 A. I do not know, I was in the camp. No one went to
9 Bradina. None of the detainees who were released went
10 to Bradina. It was not allowed. Nobody said that they
11 went to Bradina.
12 Q. Thank you. Sir, you have been shown what has been
13 marked for identification purposes as Prosecution
14 Exhibit 181. Sir is, is this a copy -- can you please
15 tell us what this is?
16 A. It is a document with the date when I was released from
17 the camp.
18 Q. Where did you receive -- from whom did you receive that
20 A. I received this document in Belgrade in the
21 International Red Cross.
22 Q. Is the date on that that the Red Cross -- from when you
23 were released, is that the correct date?
24 A. Yes.
25 MS. McHENRY: Your Honour, the Prosecution would ask that
1Exhibits 180 and 181 be admitted into evidence.
2 MR. MORAN: Your Honour, as to 180, which I believe is
3 release papers, the copy we were given has a handwritten
4 notation in the Bosnian original on the bottom of it.
5 Is that in the one that is being introduced?
6 MS. McHENRY: Yes, it is, although if the Defence wishes,
7 we are happy to have that redacted.
8 MR. MORAN: I would object to that coming in. There is a
9 similar statement on the bottom of 181.
10 MS. McHENRY: The Prosecution is happy to have those
11 redacted and to give Defence counsel and the judges
12 redacted copies without the handwritten notations.
13 MR. MORAN: Secondly, this Red Cross document, unless there
14 is some showing that the Red Cross had some independent
15 actual knowledge of the date of his release, we would
16 object to that portion of it showing the date of his
17 release. We have no objection to his date of birth or
18 the date he was registered, because the UN would have --
19 excuse me, the ICRC would have actual knowledge of that,
20 but there is no way that the ICRC would know
21 independently --
22 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: What is the document being tendered
24 MR. MORAN: Your Honour, I believe it is being tendered to
25 show the date he was released.
1MS. McHENRY: Maybe I can clarify it with another question
2 to the witness.
3 JUDGE JAN: I am not sure about, it says -- I have this
4 version which has both Bosnian Croat and English
5 versions. It says "regularly visited from 12th August
6 to 17th November". It does not show the date of
8 MS. McHENRY: Your Honour, if I just may direct your
9 attention to the next line, where it says "was released
11 JUDGE JAN: I see.
12 MS. McHENRY: Maybe if I ask the question it will clarify
13 the matter and satisfy Defence counsel.
14 Sir, with respect to the date of your release on
15 this document, did you tell the Red Cross the date you
16 were released or did they have that information in their
18 A. No, I did not tell them, they must have these data in
19 their computer. As far as I know, it must be from the
20 computer. It is clear why I needed it, because I had to
21 have some evidence to show that I had spent time in the
22 camp and the Red Cross gives it to you automatically,
23 independently. They do not ask you when you were
24 released, they get it out of a computer.
25 MS. McHENRY: I will also just remind Defence counsel that
1the witness had stated that there was a Red Cross
2 representative in Celebici at the time he was actually
3 leaving the camp, so the Prosecution would again ask
4 that 180 and 181 be admitted into evidence, with the
5 provision that the Prosecution will give redacted copies
6 with the handwritten notations taken off.
7 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Actually there are two different
8 dates. If you find the Red Cross date it is
9 17th November. The Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina has
10 Konjic, 4th October.
11 MS. McHENRY: That is correct, your Honour --
12 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: On the top of it.
13 MS. McHENRY: -- and that is why the Prosecution is seeking
14 to introduce both. This witness has already testified
15 that the release document is as he received it from
16 Mr. Mucic, but it had the wrong date on it. The witness
17 has stated he does not know why that is.
18 JUDGE JAN: I thought your case was that even though his
19 release documents had been signed, he was not released
20 because they wanted to extract some money from him.
21 MS. McHENRY: Your Honour, at this point, all the
22 Prosecution is doing is trying to show the document he
23 received. We are not -- we do not believe it is
24 necessary for this case for us to prove why it was that
25 this document is incorrect or correct.
1JUDGE JAN: There is no such charge.
2 MS. McHENRY: That is correct, your Honour.
3 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: So it is not really relevant.
4 MS. McHENRY: Your Honour, the release document is
5 certainly relevant and we are -- but because it has the
6 incorrect date, we are trying to clarify the record as
7 to exactly when he was released and we believe that is
8 also relevant. Again, I am not suggesting that there is
9 anything pejorative or not pejorative about this, but
10 certainly when this witness was released, who signed the
11 document, when he received it, these are relevant.
12 JUDGE JAN: I am also not very clear, he reached Celebici
13 camp some time in early June and he says he stayed there
14 for four months and that would be some time in October,
15 so this probable date of release is from Musala sports
16 stadium, 17th November.
17 A. Yes, that is so.
18 MS. McHENRY: That is right. He indicates that he does not
19 know the exact dates, but he was in Celebici, he was
20 then moved to Musala. Immediately before his release he
21 was moved back to Celebici and he was actually released
22 from Celebici, although he only spent one night there,
23 I believe is the testimony.
24 JUDGE JAN: The certificate shows, the certificate issued by
25 the International Committee of the Red Cross, that he
1was released from Celebici. It does not mention Musala
2 sports stadium.
3 MS. McHENRY: Your Honour, again I do not know when they
4 have Celebici/Konjic, I have no way of knowing --
5 JUDGE JAN: Celebici is within Konjic municipality.
6 MS. McHENRY: It could be, and it could be that is referred
7 to as the Konjic thing. I do not know, your Honour.
8 JUDGE JAN: What is the worth of keeping these documents on
10 MS. McHENRY: Your Honour, because I believe that they
11 are -- the release document has the incorrect date from
12 when this witness was released from detention --
13 JUDGE JAN: This is what he says, although his date of
14 release and the discharge certificate is earlier than
15 the date on which he was actually released, and that was
16 why he was going on with the story that he was supposed
17 to pay some money to Mucic, and after receiving the
18 money, he produced this discharge certificate and gave
19 it to him.
20 MS. McHENRY: Your Honour, I believe the witness has stated
21 he does not know exactly why it has the wrong date on
22 it. He has just stated the facts as to who he gave
23 money to and what happened.
24 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: You are taking 17th November as the
25 date the International Red Cross issued your own release
2 MS. McHENRY: No, your Honour, I believe what the witness
3 has said is later he went to the Red Cross office in
4 Belgrade and received this document, but the Red Cross
5 document he did not receive at the time he was released.
6 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: That was the date he was released.
7 MS. McHENRY: That is correct, but the witness testifies
8 that it correctly reflects the date he was released.
9 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: So that reflects that he was released
10 from Celebici, not Musala. That is why perhaps Musala
11 was not stated in any of these.
12 MS. McHENRY: Your Honour, since I have no idea what they
13 refer to as Konjic -- Musala. I do not know.
14 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: You ought to know what is involved in
15 the Konjic municipality.
16 MS. McHENRY: Your Honour, I do know what is involved in
17 the Konjic municipality, I just do not know how the
18 Red Cross refer to the different detention centres.
19 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honours, I want to just mention
20 something, and I do not know if it is a problem or not,
21 but I just have an unsettled feeling about it. It is my
22 understanding that the ICRC takes the position that the
23 evidence and materials that they developed during a
24 conflict of this nature are secret and privileged and
25 they tend to protect them, I think, for 50 years after
1the event. We all know that there must be a number of
2 records sitting at ICRC that have a great deal to do
3 with what happened in Celebici, their observations of
4 the prisoners, that sort of thing. I would not want to
5 disrespect that --
6 JUDGE JAN: Mr. Ackerman, when the Red Cross issue a
7 certificate, it is not intended to be a private or a
8 secret document. A certificate is meant for a certain
9 purpose, so that the person to whom it is issued can
10 show it around where necessary. It could not possibly
11 be a secret document.
12 MR. ACKERMAN: There could be no question about that, and
13 I am not suggesting it is a secret document. What
14 concerns me is whether or not there is some unfairness
15 involved with the Prosecution using ICRC documents in
16 this case when they have taken that position. It may
17 not be an issue at all, it just concerned me.
18 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: I think it was deliberately issued
19 knowing it could be used. If not, it would not have
20 been issued, because they know how to protect their own
22 You may proceed, please.
23 MS. McHENRY: Your Honour, if Prosecution Exhibits 180 and
24 181 are in evidence, the Prosecution has no more
25 questions. The Prosecution would just in particular
1thank the witness. This has been a very long testimony
2 and I know the witness is not familiar with testifying
3 in court, so I would just like to thank the witness and
4 hope that I was not -- that he understands at the end
5 why I asked such very specific questions.
6 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: So that ends the Prosecution's
7 questions for him.
8 MS. McHENRY: Yes, your Honour. Thank you.
9 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Is the Defence ready for
11 MR. O'SULLIVAN: Yes, we are, your Honours. First it will be
12 counsel for Mr. Delalic, second counsel for Mr. Mucic,
13 third counsel for Mr. Delic and fourth counsel for
14 Mr. Landzo.
15 MS. RESIDOVIC: Your Honours, may I proceed?
16 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Yes, you may.
17 Cross-examined by MS. RESIDOVIC
18 Q. Thank you. Good afternoon, Mr. J.
19 A. Good afternoon.
20 Q. My name is Edina Residovic, I represent Mr. Zejnil
21 Delalic. Before I put some questions to you, Mr. J,
22 I should like to ask you to accept some cautionary
23 remarks, because in the examination-in-chief also, my
24 learned colleague from the Prosecution reminded you
25 several times to slow down. Namely, you and
1I understand each other well, as we speak the same
2 language, and we could very quickly have my questions
3 and your answers said, but all we are saying needs to be
4 interpreted, so that their Honours and all the
5 participants in the proceedings may understand what we
6 are saying and that it may be recorded in the
8 So I ask you, Mr. J, you have earphones on the
9 table in front of you, in which you will hear the
10 interpretation of my question and only when you have
11 heard that interpretation will you proceed to answer
12 that question. Have you understood me?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Mr. J, in the course of the examination-in-chief, you
15 said that you were a butcher by profession?
16 A. Yes, that is so.
17 Q. And you were the owner of a butcher's shop in Bradina?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Please wait for the interpretation. It was a well known
20 butcher's shop on the road between Sarajevo and Konjic;
21 that is on the way to the seaside?
22 A. Yes, that is right.
23 Q. In view of your occupation, you were familiar with
24 almost all the inhabitants of Konjic, including those
25 who held certain official posts before the war?
2 Q. Actually, you knew these people even better because you
3 were a tax payer and often you paid perhaps the highest
4 taxes in the whole municipality?
5 A. Yes, that is correct.
6 Q. As a citizen of Bosnia-Herzegovina and of SFRY, you were
7 aware that the Yugoslav People's Army, before the war,
8 and before the disintegration of Yugoslavia, was a
9 federal army which was served by all the citizens of
10 SFRY, including the citizens of Bosnia-Herzegovina; is
11 that correct?
12 A. It is.
13 Q. However, you probably know that the Territorial Defence
14 was the largest defensive force in Bosnia-Herzegovina
15 and in the country as a whole, was it not?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. You will be able to confirm that after the proclamation
18 of the independence of Bosnia-Herzegovina the Yugoslav
19 People's Army became an alien army in
21 A. I do not know that. That was not of any interest to me.
22 Q. But regardless of your lack of interest for these
23 developments, you probably knew that the Territorial
24 Defence and the MUP existed in the Republic and were the
25 legal defence forces of the country?
1A. I did not understand your question.
2 Q. Even before, and especially after, the proclamation of
3 the independence of Bosnia-Herzegovina, you surely knew
4 that the Territorial Defence and the MUP, that is the
5 bodies of the Ministry of the Interior, were the
6 legitimate defensive forces of Bosnia-Herzegovina, were
7 they not?
8 A. I was not interested in those things at all.
9 Q. Regardless of your personal interests, can you, Mr. J,
10 confirm, knowing that in the event of an immediate
11 threat of war and a state of war, the citizens of
12 Bosnia-Herzegovina were obliged to respond to the call
13 for mobilisation?
14 A. I was never called up by anyone for mobilisation anyway
15 when Yugoslavia collapsed. No one called me up for any
16 kind of mobilisation after that.
17 Q. But can you tell their Honours that after April 17th,
18 when a general mobilisation was proclaimed in Konjic,
19 you personally went to report to the TO of the
20 municipality or to the MUP of the Konjic municipality?
21 A. No, I did not.
22 Q. Mr. J, since you were working and living within the
23 municipality of Konjic, you can probably confirm to
24 their Honours that until the war broke out that the TO
25 and the MUP consisted of members of all ethnic groups;
1that is all the citizens of the municipality of Konjic;
2 is that correct?
3 A. I did not understand your question.
4 Q. Is it true to say that the TO and the MUP of Konjic,
5 before the war, consisted of representatives of all
6 ethnic groups or nationalities living in the
7 municipality of Konjic?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Mr. J, do you know Mr. Dragan Andric from Konjic?
10 A. I think I do.
11 Q. He is a person working in the security of the military
12 factory in Igman and then in the municipal court of
14 A. I think that is correct.
15 Q. You knew that Mr. Dragan Andric spent the whole time of
16 the war in Konjic?
17 A. That I do not know.
18 Q. Do you know that he was a member of the municipal staff
19 of the Territorial Defence throughout the war?
20 A. No.
21 Q. Do you know that Dragan Andric is a Serb by nationality?
22 A. I never asked him.
23 Q. Mr. J, do you know Nedzo Stojanovic, known as "Kiso"?
24 A. I do.
25 Q. You know that he is a Serb?
1A. I do.
2 Q. You also know that before the war, for a time, he was
3 President of the Executive Board of the Konjic
4 municipality, or the government of Konjic?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. And you probably know that for some time during the war,
7 he was the Vice-President of the War Presidency in
9 A. I do not know, I was in the camp, I did not know who
10 was doing what. I was not aware of that.
11 Q. Mr. J, can you tell me in what month did the Serbs in
12 Bradina put up guards and checkpoints on the
13 Sarajevo-Konjic road?
14 A. There were hardly any guards or checkpoints in Bradina.
15 When the tunnel caved in, when Guska came once -- I did
16 not see him, I heard about it -- Guska, Rusmo and
17 somebody called Rale came to Bradina. After that, a
18 tunnel between Bradina and Konjic was mined and the
19 explosion was so strong that people said that the tiles
20 and bricks fell off their roofs and the window panes
21 broke from the explosion, it was so powerful.
22 Q. Mr. J, if I tell you that from mid April 1992 no one, not
23 even patients, could pass through Bradina, going from
24 the direction of Sarajevo or Konjic, would you agree
25 with that statement?
1A. I could not. I was present when patients in a van who
2 were going to pass to Sarajevo, they were right in front
3 of my shop, and a van came carrying kidney patients for
4 dialysis treatment, and they had to pass, and with those
5 patients Dr. Ahmo Jusufbegovic was accompanying them, and
6 I know this doctor very well, he was present, another
7 doctor Risto Kalem, somebody else I knew very well, and
8 those patients were not allowed at Vukovici to go on to
9 Sarajevo. Nobody bothered them in Bradina, and so they
10 came back from Vukovici and Ahmo said he would fix it
11 with some people in Vukovici whom he knew and that they
12 would be allowed to pass. In any event, I knew they
13 were driving a small Fiat, they did not succeed and then
14 those patients came back to the juncture and then they
15 left for Konjic again. Where they went from there I do
16 not know.
17 Q. Mr. J, you can confirm that Vukovici is within the local
18 community of Bradina?
19 A. No, Vukovici belongs to the territory of the local
20 community of Tarcin, I think, because Vukovici is a
21 small Muslim hamlet, it was a purely Muslim hamlet,
22 right behind the tunnel in the direction of Tarcin, as
23 far as I know. It was not far from Bradina.
24 Q. So Mr. J, if a witness appeared before this court --
25 actually I think this is a witness with a protected
1identity, he is a doctor, but if he said that he
2 personally saw to it that these patients be let through
3 in Bradina, he would not have been speaking the truth?
4 A. I was there when the patients came, it was right there
5 at the intersection near where my house was, where
6 I lived and worked, and I was there when he was there,
7 and he said, "I am going to go up to Vukovici",
8 they were trying to pass through there, but they were
9 turned back, so he said, "I am going to go and I know
10 the people up there, so I can do this or that, so they
11 will pass, there is no question about it". However, he
12 went there, he came back and looked a bit baffled and he
13 said, "I do not know, I cannot do it, I cannot do it",
14 but whatever it was, the patients went down back with
15 him. Risto Kalem, who was a Serbian doctor, he was
16 there, and they all went back to Konjic and from there
17 I do not know where they went.
18 Q. Very well, Mr. J, let us move on to other questions that
19 you may be more familiar with. In fact, from the April
20 1992, you did not go to Konjic from Bradina, you did not
21 leave Bradina?
22 A. From when?
23 Q. April 1992?
24 A. I think I did go, nobody prevented me, except for the
25 last days, the last days I could not go, up until to the
1eve of the attack on Bradina.
2 Q. Is it then true, Mr. J, that you are testifying that
3 since 4th May, Konjic was badly shelled from Borci?
4 A. I cannot tell, I just cannot tell you, I was not there.
5 Q. Since you just answered to my question that you went to
6 Konjic without any problems up until the very end --
7 A. Actually, rarely, rarely, maybe once a week when
8 I needed to do something. I had my own business, I had
9 my own stores, I had my restaurant, so I would go when
10 I had to, when I needed to. It did not look very
11 dangerous to me up until the last day; for instance,
12 Dr. Ahmo could sleep right there by the road and nothing
13 would have happened.
14 Q. Can you tell us when you were last in Konjic?
15 A. No, I cannot tell you exactly when it was the last time
16 that I was in Konjic.
17 Q. Mr. J, do you know whether --
18 A. I know that I was in the village of Vukovici four or
19 five days to buy a calf from a man who was selling it.
20 Q. My question was: when was the last time you were in the
21 city of Konjic?
22 A. I cannot recall, I cannot remember that.
23 Q. Mr. J, did you know that the official authorities in the
24 town of Konjic asked the population in Bradina to remove
25 the barricades that were set up on the road?
1A. I did not hear about it because I did not have anyone to
2 hear it from, because I was not interested in these
3 things. I was taking care of my business and so I did
4 not know who asked what of whom.
5 Q. Mr. J, do you know that these authorities asked the
6 population to turn in weapons in a peaceful manner, to
7 turn in weapons that they had possessed illegally?
8 A. No, I do not know about that at all.
9 Q. Do you know that prior to May 25th, that is before the
10 armed conflict of which you spoke this morning in the
11 examination-in-chief, whether these barricades were
13 A. I do not know, because during the attack I was in my old
14 house (redacted). I heard a noise,
15 I heard shots or something, there were explosions. I do
16 not know what was fired, what weapons and then the
17 shells started falling. At that time, I was in my own
18 house (redacted).
19 Q. Very well, Mr. J. I asked a question and you did not
20 answer that question.
21 A. I do not know the answer to that question.
22 Q. My question was: were the weapons returned prior to
23 25th May?
24 A. I do not know whether they were.
25 Q. Maybe we should move on to questions you may be more
1familiar with, because these things that were obviously
2 happening in front of your house you were not familiar
4 As a citizen of Bradina, were you taking guard
5 twice in front of your house and your shop?
6 A. No, I was always either in my store or in my butcher's
7 shop or in my house.
8 Q. Do you know Vaso Vujicic, called "Kisa", from
9 A. I do.
10 Q. Is it correct, Mr. J, that for a long time you refused to
11 take weapons that were offered to you?
12 A. Yes, that is correct, because I had my own weapons, for
13 which I had permission, and I always had it with
14 permission, but I never used it. I never fired a single
15 bullet from it, even to try whether it worked, I never
17 Q. However, is it true that ten days before the armed
18 conflict you received a semi-automatic rifle from Vaso
19 Vujicic, together with 80 bullets?
20 A. Maybe it was not ten, maybe it was a day or two before
21 he personally brought a rifle, and it had a part
22 missing, and he said "here is a rifle, take it, you have
23 to take it" and that is how it was. However, it was
24 incomplete and he said "I will bring that spare part,
25 you will have it in a day or two", so I never got it and
1soon after that, the conflict started.
2 Q. Mr. J, is it correct that during the -- at the start of
3 the conflict you went towards Planiste with Mr. Rajko
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Is it true that you also met Dordic Nedzo, Pero
7 Gligorevic and his son for a while on that way and that
8 you went part of the road together?
9 A. Yes, I went to surrender, but I met a woman by the name
10 of Stoja and she said "run away, they were looking for
11 your money, then Boro, the forester, was captured and
12 beaten up and they were going through your house all
13 day, they were looking for the money all day long".
14 That is why I went down there.
15 Q. Your intention was to move towards a territory under the
16 control of the Serb forces, is that right?
17 A. My intention was to surrender in Pazaric, because I had
18 two friends there, and the reason that if I went and
19 reported to them that I would not be killed.
20 Q. However, your fellow villagers Nedzo and Pero wanted to
21 go the other way with the weapons, is that correct?
22 A. Yes, that is correct.
23 Q. But you did not agree with that, is that right?
24 A. That is right.
25 Q. So you went towards Pazaric?
1A. That is right.
2 Q. Which is the community near Hadzici?
3 A. Yes, that is correct, Pazaric belongs to Hadzici.
4 Q. In fact it took you two or three days to reach Pazaric,
5 until you reached the police station in Pazaric?
6 A. No, that is not so. I walked for two or three days
7 until I reached Krupa.
8 Q. Before I move on to the next question, could you please
9 answer: is Pazaric in fact the southern-most settlement
10 of the Sarajevo --
11 A. You mean the --
12 Q. I mean the whole of Hadzici with Pazaric and Tarcin.
13 A. That is correct.
14 Q. And when you reached Pazaric, you wanted to talk to the
15 policemen, Comor and Abid?
16 A. When I came to Pazaric there were three horses that were
17 grazing there and there were three men there and I said,
18 "okay, I am going over there", because I was
19 exhausted from hunger and I was exhausted and so I just
20 went straight to these people and they had weapons, they
21 were not wearing uniforms, and then they put up their
22 guns, their rifles towards me, and maybe for five or ten
23 minutes -- in five or ten minutes, a car of Lada make
24 came very fast, I knew this man from sight, I do not
25 know his name, but I know he is from Pazaric. He broke
1very suddenly and the car turned and I was wearing a
2 blue wind breaker, and I had just crossed a little
3 creek, and so I was all wet, because I was --
4 Q. Mr. J, maybe we should not go that wide, maybe I will
5 just -- let me direct you to the next question in which
6 you may include what you have just said.
7 So in the moment when you left Bradina and the
8 moment when you reached Pazaric, you were not in
9 civilian clothes?
10 A. No, I was in civilian clothes, I had a wind breaker and
11 pants and I had pants and I had two odd shoes, one was
12 laced and one was not laced. When the shooting started,
13 I just grabbed the first two shoes I had and then I had
14 like a hat that like children wear, with a little tuft
15 on it.
16 Q. So if somebody said that you were wearing a police
17 uniform, they would not be telling the truth?
18 A. That is right, they would not be telling the truth.
19 Q. You asked to see your acquaintance Sacir, is that right?
20 A. Those three men put me in this Lada vehicle, they
21 grabbed me by the collar, one was sitting in the back
22 seat, one was sitting in the front passenger seat, and
23 the one in the back seat took off my hat and had a
24 bayonet and he put it against my neck and then he put
25 it -- took it by the handle and hit me in the back.
1When we reached their command building, I was slapped
2 and hit in passing, and then they said, "now we will
3 skin you, now you will see". When we finally came to
4 the command building and I got out of the car, this man
5 came and stood in front of me, he had a full uniform and
6 a hat and he had the lilies there and he put this hat
7 all the way down to his eyebrows. I was sitting with
8 him, I sat at least 100 times with him in cafes in
9 Tarcin and elsewhere, and he stood in front of me and he
10 asked me, "do you know me?" And he said "what is
11 name?" And I said I do not know. He started laughing or
12 something and he said, "we had 100 drinks together".
13 said, "he is a good man, nobody touches him", and
14 he said, "you come with me to", I do not know, some
15 of an office. I went to this office and he said, "sit
16 down", and I sat down. As I sat down, he said "how
17 you end up here" --
18 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Ms. Residovic, is this what you
20 MS. RESIDOVIC: I should interrupt the witness every time,
21 but thank you, yes. Please, did this man take you to --
22 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: You can continue until 6.00.
23 MS. RESIDOVIC: Thank you, your Honours, if that is your
24 decision I can indeed go on.
25 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: It is, yes.
1MS. RESIDOVIC: So this policeman, Comor, took you to your
2 friend Sacir, is that correct?
3 A. Yes, but --
4 Q. No, if you could just please answer the question I put
5 to you, we all would like to hear what this court is
6 interested in hearing and what is pertinent in this
7 case. So you were taken to Sacir?
8 A. That is correct.
9 Q. And Sacir made it possible for you to change your wet
11 A. I was barefoot when I came to Sacir. The man came in
12 front of the house and honked, and he said, "just get
13 out", and so I got out and he honked, and Sacir's wife
14 got out and she said -- so Comor asked her, "is this a
15 friend of yours", and she said, "oh yes", very
16 and then Comor tells me, "so if she says you are
17 friends, just go in", so I was just barefoot in some
18 shirt and things.
19 Q. Very well, Mr. J. So Sacir gave you clothes to change
20 and you left the clothes that you were wearing when you
21 left Bradina and that you had on until you reached
22 Pazaric, is that correct?
23 A. Correct.
24 Q. Should these persons claim that you were at that time in
25 a police uniform, would they be telling the truth?
1A. Madam, I do not think that anybody ever saw me in
2 uniform in my life. When I was in the army I was a
3 cook, so I never wore even a military uniform, let alone
4 the police one. I was all torn up and dirty and so he
5 gave me a pair of pants and a shirt.
6 Q. Mr. J, in the examination-in-chief, you said that from
7 Pazaric, that is from Tarcin several days later, you
8 were taken to Celebici, is that correct?
9 A. No, from the silo. I was taken from Pazaric from the
11 Q. And then from silo you were taken to Celebici but with a
12 stopover in Bradina, is that correct?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. In Bradina you were mistreated for the first time?
15 A. That is correct.
16 Q. And as you said here, the persons present at that time
17 were the chief of police of the Konjic MUP and his
19 A. Yes, Guska and Sevko.
20 Q. You also said during the examination-in-chief that
21 several days after you were brought to Celebici you were
22 called in and questioned by the military investigative
23 commission in the command building of the prison, is
24 that correct?
25 A. That is correct.
1Q. You also confirmed that you were questioned by Miro
3 A. Correct.
4 Q. Miroslav Stenek and a person who, together with him,
5 took a statement from you behaved properly towards you?
6 A. Nobody touched me, nobody beat me.
7 Q. They asked questions of you and put down in the record
8 whatever you said?
9 A. They asked me questions but I do not know what they put
10 down in the report, because --
11 Q. You signed that record?
12 A. Yes, I did.
13 Q. I would like the usher's assistance, with the usher's
14 assistance that the witness be shown the statement of
15 9th June, and I also have translations of this statement
16 for the Trial Chamber and for the Prosecutor.
17 MR. NIEMANN: Your Honours, might I be excused for a moment?
18 There is a matter that I have to attend to. May I leave
19 the Chamber for a moment?
20 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: You can be excused. I think
21 Miss McHenry is handling this one.
22 MR. NIEMANN: As your Honours please.
23 MS. RESIDOVIC: May I ask for the usher's assistance to
24 provide the witness with this statement that he made to
25 recognise as his own? (Handed).
1JUDGE JAN: There is only one copy for the judges?
2 MS. RESIDOVIC: I did give three copies, your Honours.
3 THE REGISTRAR: There are three copies in English, but
4 I need one for the Registry.
5 MS. RESIDOVIC: Here is another one then.
6 Mr. J, is this signature your signature?
7 A. (Not interpreted).
8 MS. RESIDOVIC: As the witness has recognised his signature
9 on the statement, I propose that it be admitted into
10 evidence as an exhibit of the Defence.
11 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Yes, you can.
12 MS. McHENRY: I do not know what purpose it is being
13 admitted for. The Prosecution does not object that the
14 witness has recognised his signature, but without more
15 evidence showing either that the statement was taken
16 voluntarily or at least some proffer as to why it is
17 being done, we would object.
18 JUDGE JAN: But this was recorded by one of your own
20 MS. McHENRY: Your Honour, I believe this was -- your
21 Honour, I do not believe that is correct. I believe
22 this is a statement taken by --
23 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: You examined a member of the examining
24 commission, investigating body and this is from the
25 examination-in-chief. My impression was that was one of
1the persons who examined him.
2 MS. McHENRY: Your Honour, I believe the person you are
3 thinking of is not the person this witness has testified
4 about. In any event, unless the witness says, "I was in
5 a position to tell the truth and I did tell the truth
6 and this is it", we will object. If your Honour will
7 remember the testimony of the other witnesses, one of
8 the reasons they left was that they did not feel people
9 were in a position to answer frankly.
10 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Do you have a copy of the statement?
11 MS. McHENRY: Yes, your Honour, I do.
12 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Where is it stated who has written down
13 the statement? There is nothing here, nothing tells you
14 who wrote down this statement, who took this statement.
15 MS. McHENRY: That is correct, your Honour.
16 MS. RESIDOVIC: The witness, your Honours, has confirmed
17 all the facts contained in the statement, and he said
18 that he made the statement freely and he recognised his
20 A. It says here that I was wearing a police uniform, and
21 that is not correct.
22 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: What I am observing is that the copy
23 I have with me says nothing about who wrote down this
25 JUDGE JAN: In examination-in-chief, he said he was examined
1by two persons. I thought one of them was -- that was
2 my impression.
3 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: That does not appear here, except if it
4 is in the original, I do not know, but there is nothing
5 here to say that. Except if it is in lieu of an oral
6 statement, a complimenting written document, there is
7 nothing here.
8 MS. RESIDOVIC: Your Honours, it is normal for the witness
9 to offer the testimony of other members of the
10 commission in order to clear up the question of the
11 procedure and the treatment given to prisoners in the
13 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: It depends on the attitude the
14 Prosecution is taking, because I have not -- you have
15 made not made a submission about opposing or accepting.
16 MS. McHENRY: I am sorry. The Prosecution objects to the
17 admission of this based on this record. If it is
18 admitted for any purpose other than that the witness
19 recognised his signature, for instance if it is offered
20 either for the truth of the matter or for impeachment,
21 we object to both those without there being any
22 statement that this accurately reflects what the witness
23 said and that the witness gave this statement
25 JUDGE JAN: But let him say that he did not make the
1statement voluntarily, because impeachment can go on and
2 it can be shown that the statement was not made
4 MS. McHENRY: Yes, your Honour, I agree, but at the present
5 time, on the present record, the Prosecution objects.
6 If Defence counsel wants to ask some additional
7 questions -- but the question for me was whether or not
8 the Prosecution objected, and the Prosecution does
10 JUDGE JAN: But supposing later on the Defence is able to
11 show that the statement was made voluntarily, then would
12 you recall this witness for purpose of impeachment? At
13 this stage, this can be taken into consideration,
14 subject to the Defence showing that it was made
16 MS. McHENRY: As I said, your Honour, the Prosecution does
17 not object to the fact that the witness has identified
18 his signature, and that is in the record. As I said,
19 the Prosecution does not object -- if it is for
20 identification purposes, then the witness has recognised
21 his signature and we do not object. If it is offered
22 for either the truth of the matter or for impeachment
23 then based on the present record, we certainly do
25 JUDGE JAN: But let him say that himself, "I did not make
2 MS. McHENRY: Yes, your Honour, but I am not the one asking
3 the questions.
4 JUDGE JAN: Defence counsel cannot impeach him on the basis
5 of a statement if it bears his signature. He can say he
6 did not make the statement.
7 MS. McHENRY: Your Honour, I have not objected to any
8 question she has made about this. I have not objected
9 to her showing it to him and I do not object to her
10 asking questions about it. I was just asked if I object
11 to its admission into evidence at the present time, and
12 the Prosecution certainly does.
13 MS. RESIDOVIC: Your Honours, before any determination is
14 made in answer to the Prosecutor's question, the witness
15 said that he made this statement voluntarily when he
16 arrived at Celebici. This is clearly stated at the
17 bottom of this statement, on which he recognised his
19 A. That is not correct, that is not what I said. That is
20 not true. I did not say that. I said that when they
21 brought me there, they did not beat me. I did not say
22 "voluntarily". They could have written whatever they
23 wanted, I had to sign it. Even if they had put that
24 I had killed five people I would have had to sign it.
25 I did not even read it. I could not read it, he just
1handed it to me and said "sign", I had to sign. I could
2 not read and say, "this is true, this is not true, this
3 is not true what is written here". If evidence is
4 required then everyone knows that this was a lie that
5 I was in uniform when I reached Sacir's. When I reached
6 Sacir's I had a torn shirt, no shoes, so this is false,
7 this is a lie, but I had to sign it. If they had
8 accused me of hanging 20 people, I would have had to
9 sign it, because when I was making this statement, Delic
10 was walking in front of the door.
11 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Are you seeing this statement for the
12 first time? Is this the first time you are seeing this
14 A. The first time, yes. I never saw this statement
15 before. I did not read it either. Regardless whether
16 it was me or someone else, another prisoner, this is not
17 creditworthy, because whatever they wrote, one had to
18 sign, so it has no value at all.
19 MS. RESIDOVIC: Your Honours, if you have followed my
20 cross-examination, the witness has confirmed each of the
21 facts contained in this statement, that he received a
22 rifle, a semi-automatic rifle, that he walked for three
23 days, that he separated from the group --
24 THE INTERPRETER: I am sorry, but Defence is going too
1A. (Not interpreted).
2 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Ms. Residovic is going too fast. Try
3 and calm down and let the interpreters get what you are
5 MS. RESIDOVIC: Your Honours, I apologise. After a month
6 long break I have obviously forgotten our interpreters,
7 who always have difficulty with my speed. I shall do my
8 best to avoid that in the future.
9 You have heard, your Honours, that the witness, in
10 answer to my questions, has already confirmed all that
11 is contained in this statement, that from Vaso Vujicic
12 he received a semi-automatic rifle, that he set off
13 towards a locality with a group of villagers, that he
14 did not continue with them because they wanted to carry
15 weapons, that he went off towards Pazaric on his own,
16 that in Pazaric, he met these policemen --
17 A. (Not interpreted).
18 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Will you please wait for counsel to
19 speak. Yes, can you continue?
20 MS. RESIDOVIC: The only fact which the witness has not
21 confirmed in this courtroom is that he was wearing a
22 police uniform --
23 A. And that I met Comor and Abid, that is also not true,
24 because Comor came there when I was brought there by
25 car, he was there with the army and I saw Abid for the
1first time in the camp in the silo, so that is not true
3 Q. Therefore this witness, in answer to my questions and as
4 is stated in this statement, answered primarily about
5 the kind of personal weapon that he had with a licence
6 and the one that Vaso Vujicic gave him. All this
7 coupled with his recognition of his signature and his
8 statement before this court that Stenek and the other
9 person correctly questioned him --
10 A. It is true that they did not beat me.
11 Q. I think that conditions have been established for the
12 statement to be admitted.
13 A. It is not true that I met Comor and Abid, that I came in
14 uniform to Sacir's, that is not true either, because you
15 would not let me tell you exactly what happened when
16 Comor took me into his office. When he took me in the
17 office, I was in a shirt, without shoes, in a torn shirt
18 and a pullover on top and in the corner of the office
19 was a completely new uniform of the JNA and Comor said
20 this to me, "you see, I am sorry for you, you are a good
21 man, you are all wet through, it is cold, I would give
22 you this to change into".
23 MS. RESIDOVIC: I think, your Honours, we need to caution
24 the witness that he should not take part in our legal
25 arguments. So will you please, after the arguments
1given by the Prosecution and my own, if you could rule
2 as to whether this statement can be admitted.
3 A. May I ask a question?
4 MS. RESIDOVIC: No, you cannot.
5 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: The principal objection which perhaps
6 the Prosecution has raised is the question of the
7 voluntariness of the statement itself, not necessarily
8 whether it was made. It was made, I am not sure he is
9 denying it was made, although he also said he was not
10 beaten. Perhaps his inference is that there was
11 intimidation, a veiled threat, but what he does not deny
12 is signing this statement, he did sign the statement.
13 I think the statement is admissible at this
14 stage. The important thing is whatever weight you
15 attach to it. We admit it.
16 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honours, may I mention two things? There
17 is a deficiency in the record that goes quite a way
18 back, when the witness was asked "do you recognise your
19 signature on the statement"; he answered in
20 Serbo-Croatian and it was not interpreted. The
21 transcript shows no interpretation and I think it is
22 important for the transcript that that be fixed so that
23 it shows that he answered yes to that.
24 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: I heard over my headphones the
25 translation that he admitted the signature.
1MR. ACKERMAN: I did not hear such a translation, but I know
2 the record shows no translation. The second thing is
3 when you, your Honour, asked him if this was the first
4 time he had seen the statement, I notice that
5 Miss McHenry rose as if she wanted to make some comment
6 about that, and I would not like to miss her having the
7 opportunity to do that. There may be something
8 important there.
9 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: He made this statement, he does not
10 deny making it. The circumstances in which he made it
11 is what he complained about.
12 JUDGE JAN: There is no impropriety imputed to you.
13 MS. McHENRY: I am not going to argue with your Honours'
14 ruling, just with respect to Mr. Landzo.
15 I do not know whether or not the witness
16 understood the question to be whether or not he has seen
17 this statement since he has come to The Hague, and to be
18 frank, I do not know the answer to that. It is possible
19 when I was meeting with him, I may have shown it to him,
20 I may not have done, and I just have to say, your
21 Honour, I do not remember. If there is some question as
22 to the record I can find out from someone else who was
23 there, and I do not know if the record was clear.
24 I know I had it, I just do not know if I showed it to
1THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.
2 JUDGE JAN: It is not relevant.
3 MR. O'SULLIVAN: Your Honour, if I can be of assistance to
4 the Chamber, page 145 of LiveNote, line 15, where the
5 witness answered "yes" to the question "is this
6 signature?", in parentheses is "not interpreted";
7 I believe in his language he said "yes, this is my
8 signature", but it was not interpreted and picked up.
9 MS. RESIDOVIC: I think after the clarification made by the
10 President, your Honours, that the correction has been
11 made where necessary. Maybe the reason was the speed at
12 which I spoke, so these errors may occur to the
13 interpreters. Thank you.
14 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Thank you very much.
15 MS. RESIDOVIC: Mr. J, you said that Smajo was your friend
16 and acquaintance who came to see you several times in
17 Celebici, is that so?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Can you tell the court how many times your friend took
20 you out of tunnel number 9?
21 A. Quite a number of times.
22 Q. Can you tell me, when you say Smajo the butcher, you are
23 referring to Smajo Kovasovic, known as Kuresan?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Mr. J, you also said that since you spent some time
1outside, on two or three occasions, you saw the brother
2 of Mr. Zejnil Delalic, Dzafo Delalic; is that true?
3 A. It is.
4 Q. You also said, Mr. J, that you knew Mr. Dzafo Delalic very
5 well because he would often come to your restaurant?
6 A. No, I knew Sefik better.
7 Q. You also said that you saw Mr. Dzafo Delalic twice
8 heading towards a part of the barracks where apparently
9 there were some warehouses, is that true?
10 A. It is.
11 Q. You also stated that he did not have any contact with
12 the prisoners, is that so?
13 A. Yes, I did not see him in touch with them, at least.
14 Q. And you can also confirm that you saw Mr. Dzafo Delalic
15 two or three times, as you said in the
17 A. Yes, I can confirm seeing him. I could describe him.
18 Q. Mr. J, if I was to tell you that the man known as Dzafo
19 Delalic, who is the oldest as you say, died in 1986,
20 would you agree with me then that I am telling the
22 A. I do not know. I said I knew Sefik very well and Dzafo
23 -- I know there was another brother, what his exact
24 first name was I do not know. I know 100 per cent that
25 he was a brother of Zejnil's. I know Sefik very well
1and that is what I said and whether this other brother's
2 name was Dzafo or something else, I cannot remember.
3 I am sorry, I cannot even remember the name of the man
4 next to me. It was a long time ago, but I know for sure
5 that it was Delalic's brother, a heavy built man,
6 I remember seeing him. He had a sweater, he was not in
7 uniform, I remember that for sure. I know he was going
8 by number 9 in the direction of a warehouse at the end.
9 Q. So you do not know whom you actually saw, which person?
10 A. I know it was his brother for sure, that I do know.
11 I know that for sure.
12 Q. Mr. J, in answer to my previous question, in connection
13 with the post held by Dragan Andric and Nedzo Stojanovic
14 during the war, you answered that during that time you
15 were in prison and you did not know who held what post
16 in Konjic?
17 A. I knew what Nedzo did before the war, I did know.
18 I knew that very well.
19 Q. While you were in prison, you had no information about
20 what was happening in town and who was assuming which
21 post in Konjic, is that true?
22 A. No, I did not know that.
23 Q. You did not have any first-hand knowledge about whether
24 there were any changes regarding positions held after
25 the beginning of the war in Bosnia-Herzegovina, is that
2 A. I do not quite understand the question.
3 Q. Since you were in Celebici, you personally had no
4 knowledge as to what was happening in the HVO, who had
5 been elected, who held what post in the TO, et cetera?
6 A. No, I did not know those things. I know that Guska was
7 chief of police at the time and Sevko was the deputy or
8 police commander, and Jasna I knew because she came to
9 the camp and that is it.
10 Q. Since you were in touch with Smajo Kovasovic, known as
11 Kuresan, if that man says that he came to visit you
12 several times and that he brought you certain gifts, but
13 he never spoke to you about questions outside the
14 context of your personal friendship, then that man is
15 not telling the truth?
16 A. Correct. If he says that he never spoke to me, then he
17 is not telling the truth.
18 Q. Mr. J, you were interrogated also by a body representing
19 the Serb authorities in February, on 8th February 1993?
20 A. Yes, that is true.
21 Q. It is true that you said then that you had fled from
22 Celebici, that you escaped from Celebici to Serb-held
24 A. I do not recall that.
25 Q. If in a statement there were to be stated as being said
1by you, then that was not true?
2 A. If I said I had escaped then I did not tell the truth,
3 it is not true.
4 MS. RESIDOVIC: Thank you, Mr. J, I have no further
5 questions for you.
6 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: I think that is the cross-examination
7 for the first accused. We will stop here and tomorrow
8 we will continue with the rest of the
9 cross-examination. The Trial Chamber will rise.
10 (6.00 pm)
11 (Court adjourned until 10.00 am the following day)