1 Tuesday, 14th October 1997
2 (10.00 am)
3 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Good morning, ladies and gentlemen.
4 Can we have the appearances, please?
5 MR. NIEMANN: If your Honours please, my name is Niemann and
6 I appear with my colleagues Ms. McHenry, Mr. Turone and
7 Mr. Khan for the Prosecution.
8 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Can we have that of the Defence,
10 MS. RESIDOVIC: Good morning, your Honours. I am Edina
11 Residovic, Defence counsel for Mr. Zejnil Delalic,
12 together with my colleague, Eugene O'Sullivan, professor
13 from Canada.
14 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Thank you very much.
15 MR. OLUJIC: Good morning, your Honours. I am Zeljko Olujic,
16 Defence counsel from Zagreb, I am Defence counsel for
17 Mr. Zdravko Mucic, together with my colleague, Michael
18 Greaves, Defence attorney from Great Britain and
19 Northern Ireland.
20 MR. KARABDIC: Good morning, your Honours, I am Salih
21 Karabdic, attorney from Sarajevo, Defence counsel for
22 Mr. Hazim Delic, together with my colleague Tom Moran,
23 attorney from Houston Texas.
24 MR. ACKERMAN: Good morning, your Honours, I am John
25 Ackerman, I appear here with my co-counsel Cynthia
1 McMurrey on behalf of Mr. Esad Landzo.
2 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Thank you very much. I think the
3 witness is still under cross-examination. Can we have
4 the next Defence counsel cross-examining?
5 MR. OLUJIC: With your permission, your Honours, it is my
6 turn to cross-examine the witness.
7 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Kindly remind the witness he is still
8 under oath.
9 THE REGISTRAR: I am reminding you, sir, that you are still
10 under oath.
11 WITNESS J (continued)
12 Cross-examined by MR. OLUJIC
13 Q. Good morning, Mr. J.
14 THE INTERPRETER: Excuse me, the witness does not have the
15 microphone on.
16 MR. OLUJIC: You are now in The Hague for the second day.
17 You have been in The Hague here for the second day now,
18 I hope that you will return home soon. I represent
19 Mr. Zdravko Mucic. We will have a conversation here, and
20 I would like to request, even though we speak similar
21 languages, they are different languages but we
22 understand one another -- for the benefit of the Trial
23 Chamber, for all of us present in the courtroom, I would
24 like to request that you wait until I have finished
25 asking you a question and when you hear the end of the
1 interpretation to one of the official languages, then
2 please proceed with your answer. Did we understand each
3 other on this point?
4 A. Yes, we did.
5 Q. Thank you. Yesterday during your examination-in-chief,
6 you said that you were from the Celebici camp for four
8 A. Approximately.
9 Q. During your time in the camp, you who were imprisoned
10 there, did you have the morning parades or the morning
11 roll calls with also salute to the flag?
12 A. There were no roll calls, no reading of the names and no
13 salute to the flag.
14 Q. Were there guard parades in the camp at that time?
15 A. That I do not know.
16 Q. However, you were there for four months, did you see
18 A. No, I did not see any of that, not for the guards.
19 Q. Thank you. That is a satisfactory answer to me. Mr. J,
20 can you tell me, how many times did you see Mr. Mucic?
21 A. I saw him on a number of times.
22 Q. What does that mean, "a number of times"?
23 A. A number of times, it was not once or twice, three
24 times, a number of times.
25 Q. Did Mr. Mucic have a certain rank?
1 A. I think he was the camp commander.
2 Q. No, that is not my question. My question is whether he
3 had a certain rank.
4 A. He did wear a uniform, I did not notice a rank.
5 Q. Mr. J, you say that Mr. Mucic wore a uniform. What types
6 of uniforms did you see in the camp?
7 A. I saw the camouflage uniforms.
8 Q. Were there different uniforms there?
9 A. At one point, I saw Mr. Delic wearing a black uniform.
10 I once saw the soldiers when they were there in
11 training, they had camouflage uniforms.
12 Q. Did the guards in the camp also carry weapons outside of
13 their guard posts?
14 A. You mean inside the camp or in the compound?
15 Q. Yes.
16 A. Yes, they did.
17 Q. Were there any conflicts among the guards?
18 A. Sometimes there were quarrels, yes, they were quarreling
20 Q. Mr. J, you served the JNA army, right, in the JNA army?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Did you give an oath there?
23 A. Yes, I did.
24 Q. Do you know how to disassemble a rifle?
25 A. Not very well. In fact, I was taken out several times
1 to clean a rifle, but I needed help of Sejo to help me
2 do that.
3 Q. Is this Sejo somebody who was there with you in the
5 A. No, this was in the camp.
6 Q. No, I am asking you about your military service.
7 A. When I was serving in the JNA, I had the M48 rifle, that
8 was the old one, and then I was a cook, so we only did
9 it for the first three months and then afterwards I was
10 just cooking. I was in Montenegro. We were eight cooks
11 who were working in shifts. When you did not work then
12 you slept and then you worked.
13 Q. And the rifle that you used to have, you knew how to
14 shoot it?
15 A. Yes, during the training, yes, then I would shoot from
17 Q. Please tell, you said that you were in the training, you
18 gave the oath to the JNA. How were you trained? Can
19 you sign a capitulation document, capitulation of
21 A. I do not know about that, but the oath was that I pledge
22 to defend the country and for the rest, people did not
24 Q. Are you trying to say you do not know about this?
25 A. Probably not, I mean the oath was to defend Yugoslavia.
1 If there should be an attack, if Yugoslavia was
2 attacked, then I pledged to defend the country and to if
3 necessary give my, even, life to it. That is what
4 I remember.
5 Q. Were you taught that if you were taken prisoner that you
6 would do everything to try to set yourself free?
7 A. That I do not know.
8 Q. So you are saying that you did not learn that during
9 your training in the JNA?
10 A. No, and nobody ever mentioned that, I never heard about
12 Q. How long were you in the training in the JNA?
13 A. Just three months, the first three months. It was both
14 training plus training for the cook.
15 Q. Did you have like political training?
16 A. I never heard of that.
17 Q. Mr. J, you were born in Bradina, is that correct?
18 A. Yes, that is correct.
19 Q. During the time that you were in Bradina, was there
20 general People's Defence system there?
21 A. It was at the municipality level.
22 Q. So it was not --
23 A. It was in the municipality. There was something at the
24 municipality level, I do not know, the People's Defence,
25 or the Civilian Defence.
1 Q. Did you have a commander in Bradina, a commander who was
2 in charge of the defence and everything?
3 A. In Bradina, we practically did not have an army, we
4 had -- it was just talked about if there would be an
5 attack, then we will not touch anyone, if somebody
6 attacked Muslims, if some army came, we would protect
7 them and some people went to some, I do not know,
8 negotiations or some agreements making.
9 Q. So does that mean that you did have a commander in
11 A. There was a small group which was going to some kind of
12 negotiations or talks there, I was not part of that.
13 Q. So who was, then? Just for example, one or two names,
14 if you can recall.
15 A. I think that on one occasion there was somebody -- maybe
16 Rusmo, who came from Konjic for those negotiations.
17 I know there was a meeting in the community halls.
18 Q. So Rusmo from Konjic, who from Bradina?
19 A. I think it was Rajko or Raso Djordjic.
20 Q. Is that his last name?
21 A. Yes, Djordjic.
22 Q. Mr. J, did you have any weapons in Bradina?
23 A. There were some weapons in Bradina, some rifles. A few
24 people had them.
25 Q. A small rifle?
1 A. Something significant, a few people carried them.
2 I know that there was something there, a few people had
3 a few things.
4 Q. So how many weapons do you think it was?
5 A. Trust me, I do not know. I was taking care of my
6 business and I did not want to take part in all that,
7 because I did not even expect anything to happen. I did
8 not want to be involved. Maybe in that sense I was a
9 bit isolated, I was on the side.
10 Q. But you did have weapons?
11 A. I had my own personal weapons which I got from the
12 former authorities. I had a rifle and I had a pistol
13 and this pistol was stolen about three or four months --
14 as I bought it, I had never used it, it was in the new
15 house and it was hidden in the sofa and I think that
16 I even know who stole it from me. I went and I reported
17 it was stolen and I say -- I told them that I think
18 I knew who did it and they said, "what shall we do?", I
19 said, "bring him round, confront him", but they said if
20 they bring him and he said he did not do it, and that is
21 the end of that, "why do we not just take it easy and
22 proceed and we will get to who actually stole it".
23 Q. So you had a rifle and a pistol. What was the rifle?
24 A. It was a Karabin, I do not know exactly, that was also
25 with a permit. That has been a long time in my
1 possession and as far as a pistol is concerned, there
2 was Tucakovic, who was the deputy commander in Konjic
3 who was sitting in my cafe and he said "why do you not
4 apply to get a rifle?", and I said "why", because he
5 said "almost everybody who has not been criminally
6 prosecuted can do it, so you can get it". So I got it
7 and when I reported that it had disappeared, I think
8 I also had 25 bullets on that permit, so I never touched
9 it, I never even tested it. I know it was a Zastava,
10 make 62.
11 Q. Okay, so you had a rifle and a pistol. When did you ask
12 for these weapons? When was the permit issued?
13 A. I had a rifle for a very long time.
14 Q. How long?
15 A. It is actually a rifle that belonged to my father, so
16 when my father died, I took it over.
17 Q. But you applied for the pistol?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. When was this?
20 A. About three or four months before the war, the pistol
21 disappeared, the window was broken and the weapon was
22 gone. I did not go to the court, I just went to the
23 police station and made a report and I told them,
24 "I think it is this young man took it". I said, "why
25 do you not bring him over, so I can confront him?" They
1 said, "if we bring him here now and then ask him and he
2 denies, then that is the end of the story so we cannot
3 pursue it any longer. The way we normally do it is we
4 do it slowly"; but it was never resolved.
5 Q. So how much ammunition did you get?
6 A. 75 bullets. That was with the bullet.
7 Q. How much ammunition did you have for the rifle?
8 A. I did not have any. That was more like a trophy type of
10 Q. Mr. J, when you were in Celebici, you described all the
11 torture that you were subjected to. Did you ever go to
12 Mr. Mucic officially and officially complain about what
13 happened to you?
14 A. No, and I did not dare complain.
15 Q. Very well. Tell me about these weapons that you had,
16 the rifle and the pistol. Where were these weapons?
17 A. In the old house. Both the pistol and the rifle were
18 hidden in a sofa in the new house.
19 Q. So they were hidden?
20 A. Hidden from the children.
21 Q. But if I came in I would not know where it was, that is
22 how I understand you.
23 A. I was hiding them from the children so that, God forbid,
24 the children would find it. The rifle did not have
25 bullets but the pistol did, so then when the pistol was
1 stolen from me, it was together, both together, in the
2 same place, both the pistol and the rifle. However, the
3 person who stole the pistol left the rifle there, so
4 then I took the rifle and then I moved it to the old
6 Q. Was this rifle taken away later?
7 A. No.
8 Q. Did you have a permit for it?
9 A. Yes, I did have a permit for it.
10 Q. Tell me, while you were in the camp, you said you were
11 limited as to the movements around the camp?
12 A. Yes, just like everybody else.
13 Q. Very well. Now Mr. J, when the Red Cross arrived, were
14 you still limited in your movements or could you move
15 around freely?
16 A. We were still limited in our movements, but it was a bit
17 easier, it was a different thing.
18 Q. You said during your examination-in-chief that Mr. Mucic
19 was present when you were put in the container, is that
21 A. I think he was present there because I was looking ahead
22 of me and I was -- it was a big stress and it was
23 beating and I think I may have seen him there. I am not
24 going to claim 100 per cent that I saw him.
25 Q. So you are allowing for a possibility that he was not
2 A. I think I saw him there, but -- I thought he was there,
3 because they started beating me there, but I thought
4 I heard his voice there.
5 Q. I ask you this question, Mr. J, because all other
6 prisoners who were there said that Mr. Mucic was not
7 present at the time.
8 MS. McHENRY: If I may interrupt to correct the record,
9 I believe there is a significant amount of testimony
10 that Mr. Mucic was there when people were put in the
12 A. I heard that voice very well.
13 MR. OLUJIC: All right, but you are not sure.
14 A. I am certain about the voice, that is 100 per cent.
15 Q. During your examination-in-chief when my learned
16 colleague asked you questions, you mentioned that there
17 were some Arab journalists in the camp, is that correct?
18 A. Yes, there were some Arabs there, they were journalists,
19 they were dark complexion.
20 Q. What country did they come from?
21 A. I do not know.
22 Q. How do you know that they were Arabs?
23 A. Because everybody was saying Arabs, Arabs were coming,
24 Arabs were here, both the guards and everyone else.
25 Q. Do you speak Arabic?
1 A. No, the guards said that the Arabs -- that these were
2 Arabs and I saw them.
3 Q. Very well, you saw them, but how did you conclude that
4 they were Arabs?
5 A. They had dark complexions.
6 Q. So you recognised them racially?
7 A. And also they spoke this strange language, and the
8 guards right after that said, "these are Arabs".
9 Q. Mr. J, were you a member of the SDS, Serbian Democratic
11 A. No, I was never a member of the Communist League.
12 Q. During the examination-in-chief, you mentioned
13 Mr. Guska. Were you friends with Mr. Guska?
14 A. Yes, until the last day. He was a vet, and he inspected
15 meat in my own slaughterhouse, so there were three or
16 four vets who were taking turns every day or maybe a
17 week, every week, so that we probably sat together at
18 least 100 times, either in my cafe or in my butcher's
19 shop. I also knew his mother. He would come to me and
20 I thought we were friends. I think up until then, he
21 showed nothing, for instance that he would never do
22 anything hostile to me.
23 Q. So when did that friendship break up?
24 A. I was in Bradina, he was in Konjic and just before the
25 war, I think, I do not know how long before the war, he
1 was appointed a commander of the police. Up until then
2 he worked as a vet and then on the eve of the war he was
3 appointed to the chief of police in Konjic. We never
4 came to quarrel, but when things fell apart and when
5 I was brought to Bradina, I saw him there and there were
6 a lot of people there, a lot of -- Sevko was there and a
7 lot of soldiers and I sensed, I think that he, even sort
8 of hid a little bit from me. I think that he was a bit,
9 you know -- he apparently did not want to just come and
10 face me, but Sevko was there, Guska was there and Sevko
11 said, "why did you run away? You had so much money, why
12 did you run away?", you know. Then he said, "tie up
13 this garbage" and I know the person very well, he was a
14 policeman before the war, he went down to an old house
15 belonging to some Pero and then he brought some wire
16 from it with pliers and then they tied us, tied our
17 hands, because then they took us to the intersection and
18 there was my house and Sevko and Guska was right in
19 front of my house and then there was Mehmed Alija there,
20 but in any event they took us to some storage room to
21 kill us, there was a little fountain, and they wanted to
22 take us there. I saw Ira, a lot of people, some Gajic,
23 there was Osman Gajic, Hodza Rizvic, his son Miso.
24 Q. If you can slow down a bit.
25 A. I saw Miso, Hodza's son, when we came to this very
1 entrance, we were ordered to stop, I saw Diksa.
2 Q. Very well, Mr. J. It is not necessary to go that wide.
3 If you could please just stick to the question that
4 I ask of you and if you can please answer as succinctly
5 as possible, so that you would not also tire too much.
6 I understand that it is difficult for you, but you also
7 please try to understand us. We are also doing our job
8 here in the courtroom.
9 Yesterday, during the examination-in-chief, you
10 said that, virtually up to the last moment, you went to
11 Konjic before war broke out, is that correct?
12 A. Yes, I did go to Konjic, and Tarcin. I went to purchase
13 goods and cattle.
14 Q. How much before the shelling of Konjic? How many days
15 before that did you go to Konjic?
16 A. I have no idea, I cannot remember exactly when Konjic
17 was attacked. I do not know. I went regularly.
18 Q. What do you mean, you have no idea? You did not know
19 that Konjic was attacked and destroyed?
20 A. I did not know it was attacked before Bradina was
21 attacked, before we were attacked in Bradina. I did not
22 know that.
23 Q. And when Bradina was attacked, did you defend
25 A. People started to flee when Bradina was attacked. The
1 shells starting falling very suddenly and the women and
2 children --
3 Q. And how long did the attack on Bradina last?
4 A. I do not know, I know it started somewhere in the
5 afternoon, it lasted all evening, all night, and the
6 next day I think.
7 Q. Therefore more than two days?
8 A. No, not two days. People started fleeing immediately,
9 within an hour, I think, something like that. I know
10 that in my old house, I was in my old house with my wife
11 and children at the time, and I know that children from
12 that side where people were being killed, the women and
13 children were fleeing and they came to my cellar and
14 there were more than 30 women and children in the cellar
15 that I had.
16 Q. Tell me, Mr. J, yesterday, during the
17 examination-in-chief, you mentioned that when you were
18 leaving Celebici, Mr. Zara and Mr. Pavo were with you?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Tell me, who else went with you to Serb-held territory?
21 A. Somebody called -- there was a small car, a small Fiat
22 and a van and both were full of people. There were
23 three cars.
24 Q. And how long was the trip from Celebici to where you
25 were going?
1 A. It was quite long, we went through Butrovic Polje, then
2 I think it was Kresevo, I know we went through Kiseljak,
3 through the woods.
4 Q. Could you explain more closely, was it about 100
5 kilometres? Roughly, 90, 100, 110?
6 A. I really do not know what the distance was, but I know
7 it was not close, because we went from Donje Selo,
8 Butrovic Polje, then via Kravulja, then there was a road
9 through the woods and then we got to Kiseljak somehow.
10 Q. You said you went through the woods. What were the
11 conditions on the road like, was there snow, torrents?
12 A. Well, we crossed the stream, I remember, and there was a
13 bridge across the stream.
14 Q. Was there snow, was there a blanket of snow already?
15 A. I do not think so.
16 Q. Did Mr. Mucic cross with you into Serb-held territory?
17 A. No, he did not.
18 Q. Where did he separate from you?
19 A. All three vehicles got to in front of a house just under
20 Kobiljaca. It was to the left of the road, and we got
21 there, in front of that house, and we all got out and
22 that is when Mucic returned. He came with us to that
23 house and then he turned back. A man in that house had
24 an old Skoda car and he transported some people. Some
25 went on foot, because the man did not have much fuel.
1 Q. Tell me, how long did this trip last, all in all,
2 because obviously it was a long journey?
3 A. We did not stop anywhere, we stopped only once in a
4 wood, I think that Pavo went out, I think it was merely
5 to urinate.
6 Q. So you did not come across any checkpoint?
7 A. Yes, there were some checkpoints at Butrovic Polje, or
8 when we left Butrovic Polje, yes, we did, I remember.
9 Q. Who manned those checkpoints?
10 A. An army.
11 Q. Which army, Mr. J?
12 A. Troops in uniform.
13 Q. Whose army?
14 A. Their army.
15 Q. Did they ask you anything?
16 A. They did not ask us anything.
17 Q. Tell me, how were you dressed?
18 A. We were wearing uniforms, Zara and me.
19 Q. Who gave you the uniforms?
20 A. Pavo gave us the uniforms.
21 Q. So do you allow for the possibility that that was the
22 reason why they did not stop you at the checkpoints?
23 A. No, no, they did not stop the other two vehicles
24 either. Nobody even saw us. It was very early in the
25 morning, nobody paid any attention whether we were in
1 uniform or not. Nobody really looked closely.
2 MR. OLUJIC: Mr. J, I have finished my cross-examination.
3 Thank you, your Honours, that brings to an end my
5 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Thank you very much, Mr. Olujic.
6 MR. MORAN: May it please the court?
7 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Yes, you may proceed.
8 Cross-examined by MR. MORAN
9 Q. Thank you, your Honour. Good morning, sir.
10 A. Good morning.
11 Q. Sir, my name is Tom Moran and I represent Hazim Delic in
12 this case and I am going to ask you a few questions and
13 some of the questions are going to call for a yes or no
14 answer. Can we make an agreement with each other that
15 you will listen to the questions and, if you do not
16 understand them, tell me you do not understand them and
17 I will rephrase it or do whatever is necessary so you do
18 understand. Will you do that for me, sir?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. In return, would you answer just the question that I ask
21 and not something else? If you do that, it will go a
22 whole lot easier for us, sir. Can we agree that you
23 will do that, sir?
24 A. Yes, I will.
25 Q. Okay. One other thing, a couple of times yesterday you
1 nodded when you wanted to say yes or no. If you look
2 directly in front of you, you will see a lady in a beige
3 suit and a funny little machine; she is what is called a
4 court reporter. She is taking down everything you say,
5 there is another lady off to your right, and they cannot
6 take a nod. They write down everything we say here. If
7 you answer verbally, yes or no, that will be great.
8 Could you do that, sir?
9 A. Very well.
10 Q. You were born, where, in Bradina, in the Konjic
12 A. I was born in Sarajevo, in the district called Centre.
13 Q. You then moved to Bradina, when, when you were a
14 relatively young man?
15 A. I was a child, my father was working, he had his
16 business in Bradina, at Ivan Sedlo.
17 Q. So you have lived basically your entire life in
19 A. Yes, I spent my whole life in Bosnia-Herzegovina.
20 Q. Back in, what was it, March or April 1992, there was a
21 referendum in Bosnia over independence. Do you recall
22 the fact that the referendum occurred?
23 A. Not very well.
24 Q. But you do recall the fact that it occurred, that is
25 what I am asking at this point.
1 A. God knows.
2 Q. Okay. What I am going to ask you now is this, sir.
3 I am going to ask you whether you could have voted, that
4 is what I am asking. I am not asking whether you did
5 vote and I am not asking how you voted, because that is
6 your business and not mine. I am just asking you, could
7 you have voted in that referendum if you so chose?
8 A. Everyone could have voted, I think there was some sort
9 of a vote, yes.
10 Q. So everybody in Bradina could have voted in that
11 referendum if they had chosen to?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Okay, fine. Thank you very much, sir. Sir, yesterday
14 on your direct examination, you talked to Ms. McHenry
15 the Prosecutor about an incident where you were being
16 beaten by a group of people and someone at the back of
17 the group said, "that is enough". Do you recall that
18 incident and that testimony, sir?
19 A. Yes, I remember.
20 Q. You thought that it was Mr. Delic that was at the back
21 and said, "that is enough", but it was not, it was a guy
22 named Ismet, is that right?
23 A. It was Ismet, known as Broceta, who was a commander at
24 the sports hall in Musala.
25 Q. But that beating occurred at Celebici, right?
1 A. Yes, the beating was in Celebici.
2 Q. And when someone said "that is enough", you thought it
3 was Mr. Delic and it turned out later Ismet told you it
4 was him, right?
5 A. Yes, that is right.
6 Q. What was it that led you to mistake Ismet for Mr. Delic,
7 was it the voice or their physical appearance or some
8 combination of the two?
9 A. It was nighttime, and as Delic was always there within
10 the compound, I somehow thought that he must have been
11 with them, because somebody said, "that is enough" and
12 I thought it was him, because I doubt if one of the
13 guards had said that that it would have had any effect.
14 I did not see Ismet, I could not see Delic either, but
15 I heard somebody saying, "that is enough" and when
16 I was -- and in my subconscious, Delic noticed that
17 somebody had beaten me because I was limping and on one
18 occasion he asked me, "has somebody been beating you?",
19 and I said no, thinking that he was there, but it was
20 not him when I was transferred to Musala, I had always
21 kept it in my mind that it was him, but when I was
22 transferred to Musala, Ismet came and said, "you see,
23 they would have killed you if it had not been for me.
24 Did you hear me say 'that is enough'?" Then I realised
25 it was him, it must have been him, because he used the
1 exact same words, because it was Ismet and not Delic.
2 Q. So you are saying Mr. Ismet does not necessarily look
3 like Mr. Delic and he does not sound like Mr. Delic, you
4 just kind of assumed that it was Mr. Delic because
5 someone was there, is that your testimony?
6 A. Yes, because we were terrified. What I am trying to say
7 is that I was beaten so badly, I was so frightened and
8 I heard somebody say, "that is enough" and I thought it
9 was Delic and I believed it had been him until I got to
10 Musala; see, I am telling the truth, that is what
11 I thought.
12 Q. Nobody is saying you are not telling the truth, sir.
13 Basically you just heard a voice of authority and you
14 thought it was Hazim, is that your testimony?
15 A. Yes, exactly so.
16 Q. That is fine. That was just what I was trying to get
17 at, sir. Let us go on to something else. In tunnel 9,
18 when you were talking about the conditions, I do not
19 recall whether you said it yesterday, but remember when
20 you gave that statement to the Serbian Counsel
21 Information Centre in Belgrade, you talked about the
22 conditions in the tunnel were so bad that you and the
23 rest of the people that were in the tunnel were
24 literally sitting in your own excrement; do you remember
1 A. Yes, there were some such cases, the people who were
2 near the bottom, sitting near the part that was used as
3 a toilet, so at the bottom of the tunnel, people -- it
4 is true that people were sitting in their excrement,
5 because it was not cleaned, and as people relieved
6 themselves, there was more and more of it and it climbed
8 Q. You also testified, or told the people in Belgrade at
9 least, that things like it was so filthy that if a spoon
10 fell on that floor with all the excrement on it, you had
11 to pick up that spoon and eat with it; do you remember
12 telling them that?
13 A. Yes, I do and that was how it was, because it was so
14 filthy everywhere.
15 Q. Okay. Sir, while you were in that tunnel, how many
16 cases of cholera were there, do you know?
17 A. You are thinking of the disease?
18 Q. Yes, sir, I am thinking of the disease cholera. Did you
19 see anybody with cholera?
20 A. No, I did not and it is a wonder there were not any such
22 Q. Did you see anybody with typhus, sir?
23 A. I did not see anyone. We spoke amongst ourselves that
24 if anyone got hepatitis, we would all die. That was the
25 conversation we had amongst ourselves, but it must have
1 been a miracle it did not happen.
2 Q. That was my next question. There were not any cases of
3 hepatitis, were there?
4 A. No, there were not, but we were terrified that somebody
5 would get it under those conditions.
6 Q. Sure. In fact, it is probably, what would you agree
7 with me, that it is a one in a billion chance that you
8 all did not get hepatitis or cholera or typhus?
9 MS. McHENRY: Your Honour, I am going to object to that
10 question unless there is some showing that this witness
11 is some sort of medical expert who would know such
12 information. I think it is just unfair.
13 MR. MORAN: Let me go ahead on that, your Honour. You, sir,
14 are a butcher by trade, yes?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. As a butcher, do you actually slaughter your own
17 animals, or did you, back then?
18 A. My own, yes.
19 Q. Part of your training as a butcher is cleanliness around
20 this meat, right?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. In fact, if you do not keep the meat clean and you let
23 the various bodily fluids of the animal get all over it,
24 people will get sick from that, will they not?
25 A. I did not understand the question.
1 Q. Sure. If when you slaughter an animal, you let bodily
2 fluids and various things from the animal get all over
3 the meat, when someone eats that meat, they can get sick
4 from it, right?
5 A. A vet has to inspect the meat first.
6 Q. Sure, to make sure it is clean and the animal was
7 healthy and things like that, right?
8 A. Yes, that the meat is healthy.
9 Q. So part of your training as a butcher and dealing with
10 food products was in cleanliness and the kinds of
11 diseases that you can get by being around unclean,
12 unsanitary things, right?
13 A. I think so.
14 Q. Okay.
15 A. But it is the vet who examines the meat, because we
16 cannot tell exactly where the meat came from. You buy
17 it at the market, so when we left the camp, there were
18 few people that did not undergo treatment after being
19 discharged. Lots of people reacted positively to the
20 TBC test and had to be treated. I did too.
21 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Actually, that is not what counsel is
22 asking. He said in premises where the meat is sold, you
23 appreciate it has to be kept clean all the time?
24 A. Yes.
25 MR. MORAN: So you are experienced in diseases that can be
1 caused by that, by filth and bad conditions, things like
3 A. As far as cattle is concerned, yes. I know a little
4 about man too.
5 Q. As far as people are concerned, because if they are
6 around this kind of stuff and they eat it, they get
7 sick, right?
8 A. Some people get sick, some people survive, things that
9 one could never dream of.
10 Q. Let us go back to where we started this. You testified
11 that it was a miracle that there was a not a lot of
12 disease in that tunnel, among the people in the tunnel,
13 is that right?
14 A. I did not examine them. How do we know whether they
15 fell sick or not? We did not move around much either.
16 Q. Okay. Let us go on to something else, sir. The Arab
17 journalists that visited the camp. You talked about
18 them to people in Sarajevo and you talked about those
19 folks to the Office of the Prosecutor, and frankly, some
20 of the things you said in your statements were a little
21 unclear to me. Let me see if we can clear them up. Did
22 those Arab journalists film you being beaten?
23 A. While I personally was being beaten, they were not
24 filming, but I think they filmed me washing a heifer.
25 Whether it was a journalist or reporter, I do not know,
1 but the Arabs were there in front of the entrance to the
2 camp, right to the left of the gate on the steps and
3 then they took out those two people and they
4 interrogated them or something like that, and then they
5 would hit them a little too.
6 Q. Okay, the Arab journalists would hit these people, is
7 that what you are saying?
8 A. No, no. The people who were bringing them out in front
9 of the Arab journalists, they were hitting, Milosevic
10 and Rajko Djordjic were brought out, as far as I saw,
11 and I saw the reporters to the left when you go into
12 number 9, to the left, next to the steps. Some of them
13 were peeping inside, others were standing. The door was
14 open, and I heard them raising the level of their
15 voices, as if they were ready to hit us. In any case,
16 they raised the level of their voices, they were
17 speaking out loud.
18 Q. Sir, who is "they"? Is "they" the guards and the camp
19 staff, or is "they" the Arab journalists, or is it some
20 combination of the two of them?
21 A. The Arab journalists were right in front of number 9 to
22 the left, they had cameras, some of them were standing,
23 some of them were crouching. I remember they took out
24 Rajko Djordjic, they questioned him in front of the
25 door, "when would the war end?", and this sort of thing.
1 Q. When I said "they", is "they" the Arab journalists who
2 took out Rajko Djordjic, or was it the guards who took
3 out Rajko Djordjic so he could be questioned in front
4 of --
5 A. Delic and the other guards.
6 Q. That is fine. That was what I was trying to get at. So
7 if they were beaten -- when they were beaten, these Arab
8 journalists could have seen it, right?
9 A. They were filming.
10 Q. So you saw them filming this beating?
11 A. Yes, I did. Yes, I saw them. What they did with it,
12 I do not know.
13 Q. Okay, sir, let us go on to something else. Let us talk
14 about the International Committee for the Red Cross and
15 when they visited you.
16 A. That is fine.
17 Q. Okay, let us move on to that. Do you remember telling
18 Regis Abribat, an investigator for the Office of the
19 Prosecutor, that the Red Cross official was a Frenchman
20 and he had a Croatian interpreter; do you remember that?
21 A. I think that was it.
22 Q. Do you remember that you told the investigator for the
23 Office of the Prosecutor that after you told the
24 Red Cross person and his interpreter, this woman, that
25 you had been beaten, she told the camp guards; do you
1 remember that?
2 A. Somebody must have told them, because they repeated the
3 same words we had used. It was either Zara or she, one
4 of the two of them, I cannot say 100 per cent it was her
5 because I did not see her telling them, but somebody
6 must have told them, because when they left, Zara was
7 taken out and all this was within 10 or 15 minutes, they
8 were in number 6 and we were being beaten in front of
9 number 9. We were taken out to strip to the waist, "you
10 are going sunbathing" and then we had to sit next to the
11 wall in front of number 9. It was a very high wall, we
12 had to sit down with our hands behind our heads.
13 Q. We have discussed that. Let us talk about something
14 along those lines. So when you told the investigator
15 for the Office of the Prosecutor that the beating was
16 "because the Red Cross interpreter, who was a Croat,
17 had told the camp authorities that, which had informed
18 the Red Cross representatives, that we were being
19 mistreated", you were just guessing, right? Is that
20 what you are saying?
21 A. I was assuming, because if I did not exactly see her
22 doing it, I cannot claim it, but it is interesting some
23 of the things we said, who had been killed, how they
24 were starving us, how we did not have any water and so
25 on, so they were mentioning those same words when they
1 were beating us and how could they have known when the
2 guards were not there when we were being questioned,
3 because they said the guards would not be allowed to be
4 present, nor anyone on the part of the camp
5 authorities. They told us to speak freely, and when we
6 did, when they left, they said they would be coming back
7 in two days time and we were terribly beaten after that.
8 Q. So when you told the OTP what I just read to you, that
9 it was the Croat interpreter for the French Red Cross
10 representative that told the camp authorities, you were
11 just guessing?
12 A. I was assuming that somebody must have told them because
13 only a very short time had gone by, because when they
14 left number 9, this French man and the interpreter, then
15 Zara followed them and when Zara came back, they took us
16 out, so somebody must have told them. How could they
17 know that they were starving us, how much food we got
18 every day, so everything was quite accurate.
19 Q. Yes, sir. Sir, remember when we started off, you said
20 you were going to listen to my questions and answer my
21 questions. Sir, sometimes, to coin a phrase, I will ask
22 you what time it is and you tell me how a watch works.
23 If you just listen to the question and answer it, this
24 will go a whole lot quicker for all of us, okay?
25 A. Okay.
1 Q. By the way, as I recall, you also told the Office of the
2 Prosecutor that the Red Cross representatives must have
3 heard you being beaten. Do you remember telling the OTP
5 A. I do not think that he could have seen it, because he
6 was in number 6, but the next time when they came two
7 days later, he said that he would come in two or three
8 days, and that did indeed happen, so when he came and
9 when we saw them at the door, we all just fell silent
10 and nobody wanted to talk to them at all, because we
11 were afraid that we would be treated the same way. So
12 we just waited for them to leave. It is not their
14 Q. Okay, sir, so when you told the Office of the Prosecutor
15 that you were sure that the Red Cross representatives
16 heard your cries because afterwards one of them came to
17 see what had happened, that did not occur, or they did
18 not hear your cries? What is it, sir?
19 A. That is not what I said, I do not remember saying that,
20 that they heard our moans or something, but they were in
21 number 6 and we were in number 9 and there were two
22 guards between number 6 and number 9, that I know
23 because that I saw when we were brought out, they were
24 out there on some grass. I am not saying -- I did not
25 say that he came that day, that may have been
1 misunderstood. He came two days later.
2 Q. Okay, that is fine. Also, on your direct examination,
3 you testified that some time relevant to this trial,
4 right before you were arrested, during the time you were
5 in custody, you had seen Zejnil Delalic's older brother
6 Dzafo around; do you remember testifying to that during
8 A. It was not during the examination-in-chief, I do not
9 know if it was Dzafo, that I do not know for sure, but
10 I can describe him, I saw him down there.
11 Q. That is down, okay.
12 A. I did not see Zejnil Delalic, I did not say that during
13 the examination-in-chief.
14 Q. Okay. Let us go right back to Bradina and the people
15 there. As I understood your testimony, there was no
16 real military organisation there, is that correct?
17 MS. McHENRY: I am sorry, can I just, to clear up the
18 transcript, I do not know if there is an interpretation
19 error or if in fact the witness says it, but what the
20 transcript says the witness says:
21 "I did not see Zejnil Delalic. I did not say that
22 during examination-in-chief."
23 I just wonder if counsel could clear up, is it
24 Dzafo he is talking about or Zejnil? I think the
25 transcript is not clear.
1 MR. MORAN: Let us clear it up. You knew the Delalic
2 brothers from before the war, all of them, right?
3 A. Not well, I knew Sefik the best, because Sefik came to
4 my cafe with Guska and with others. He was the younger
5 one, he must have been there at least 100 times. What
6 I said is that I said that I did not see Zejnil during
7 the main examination, I saw him later. Mira was there,
8 but I saw the brother, I was sitting outside on the
9 grass, and I saw him passing towards the storage -- the
10 warehouse, and he was in a uniform and trousers and some
11 boots and he was coming from the gates. Once I saw him
12 coming from the gate and once towards the gate. This
13 was parallel to number 9, that is the road that was
14 passing number 9, so if this is number 9 (indicates)
15 that road there.
16 Q. On cross-examination with Ms. Residovic yesterday, you
17 said that person was, as I recall, you said that person
18 was Dzafo, is that not right?
19 A. I am not sure, I know the youngest brother, I know his
20 name for sure, that is what I said yesterday. I know
21 that he had another brother, whether this was Dzafo or
22 not, but I know that it was his brother and I can
23 describe him, but now I do not know if that is his name,
24 if his name was Dzafo or something else.
25 Q. So when you agreed with Ms. Residovic that it was
1 Dzafo, you were just kind of speculating or guessing, is
2 that right? Is that what you are saying?
3 A. I saw him for sure, and the exact name I am not sure
4 of. Sometimes I make mistakes with my closest
5 neighbour, but I can describe him now, how he walked and
6 all that. That I know, because I was very close to him.
7 Q. So the question was, when you agreed with Mr.s Residovic
8 that that was Dzafo, you were just speculating, right?
9 You were just guessing?
10 MS. McHENRY: Asked and answered.
11 MR. MORAN: I do not think it has been answered, Judge,
12 I think it has been asked.
13 A. I was not certain whether it was Dzafo, whether Dzafo
14 was his name, but I know that it was his brother, that
15 I know for 100 per cent. I knew about Sefik very well
16 and I could not be wrong about his name.
17 Q. Okay, that is fine. Sir, going back to the defence of
18 Bradina. As I understand your testimony, there was no
19 organisation -- there was not a military commander and
20 there was not uniforms for the people defending Bradina,
21 is that right?
22 A. I did not see any uniforms, because I think that
23 I was -- even if anything was being done, I was not
24 agreeing with that. I do not agree even today, so
25 I know very little about these things.
1 Q. So you do not know, like I say, of any military
2 organisation with a commander and --
3 A. The authorities, when I was taken prisoner, they also
4 knew what I am saying even now, how I was, I am talking
5 only about myself, I cannot speak of others. I think
6 that it was very clear to them and Jasna Dzumhur even
7 told my wife "we know that he is not guilty of anything"
8 and they worked together.
9 Q. Sir, as I recall from your testimony with Ms. Residovic
10 yesterday, you were one of the more prominent citizens
11 of Bradina, or you were; is that a fair assessment?
12 A. I do not know about that. I had, I had a lot, I had a
13 butcher's shop, a slaughterhouse, my own restaurant, my
14 own stores. I do not know if I was the most prominent
15 or what, but I was known as a good person and I assisted
16 everyone, regardless of whether somebody was a Croat or
17 Muslim or Serb.
18 Q. That is fine and I appreciate that, sir. You had this
19 large, for lack of a better word, investment; you had
20 two houses in Bradina, all your businesses. You had a
21 lot going for you in Bradina, did you not?
22 A. It was not really a company altogether, they were
23 separate businesses, and I had one shop in Brdjani, one
24 cluster was the butcher's shop and the store and the
25 restaurant. I also had an apartment in Konjic right
1 next to the Post Office building, and then I had a
2 different shop in Brdjani, so that was it.
3 Q. Okay. Sir, back in April, May, maybe March, this whole
4 area of 1992, in Bradina, you all had televisions, did
5 you not?
6 A. Well, that was very rarely, because I did not have time,
7 I had a lot of work. People from Repovci, Sokolovic,
8 Sunji, from all these villages they would all come to
9 me, up until the last day and whoever came I gave to all
10 three people -- people of all three sides, without any
11 distinction, depending on what religion they were of.
12 So I was just conducting my business, Kisa came and said
13 "you are just thinking of your business", that is all
14 you do.
15 Q. So you had televisions and I bet you had radio and
16 newspapers also, did you not, sir, access to those
18 A. I had access to all those things, but I was not
19 following it, because I had business and somebody had to
20 conduct this business. You always had to be there.
21 Q. And the news was full of news about fighting and your
22 country breaking up and things like that, people arming
23 themselves; you remember all that was in the news, do
24 you not?
25 A. In Bradina, I can tell you we did not have much of
1 television, because you could not get the -- you could
2 not catch the images, there were no relays, so you could
3 not watch it, you could not get the picture very well.
4 There was no relay that really covered that area, you
5 could say.
6 Q. Sir, maybe you can help me with this, and this is what
7 I am trying to get at; you are obviously not the first
8 person to testify here from Bradina and I suspect you
9 will not be the last person who is a Bradina resident,
10 or was. Pretty much uniformly, they have told us that
11 they really were not paying much attention to what was
12 going on. Some people are more interested in the news
13 and some things like that than others, but let me
14 suggest to you, sir, that if my country were arming
15 itself and Texas was splitting off from Oklahoma and we
16 were about set to start a war, a war might be about to
17 break out, I suspect that I would be pretty interested
18 in what is going on. And you, as a person of some
19 wealth who had a lot to lose in a war -- in fact you
20 lost everything, did you not, in the war? You lost your
21 two houses and your slaughterhouse and your restaurant
22 and all of that?
23 A. That is right, all.
24 Q. So I would just -- sir --
25 A. The apartment, too. I lost everything.
1 Q. Sir, maybe you can help me with this. What is it about,
2 not just you, but the other people in Bradina that when
3 all these events, these cataclysmic events in your
4 country are occurring, nobody pays any attention to it?
5 A. I think now I am talking about myself, I cannot talk for
6 others. I personally was fine with everyone Zukici,
7 everywhere, and I thought I could never do to somebody
8 with whom I sat in Repovci to his children or his wife,
9 I never thought that something like this could happen,
10 not even remotely, but if the situation were reversed,
11 if I were commanding -- in a commander position like
12 some people were, I do not think that I ever could have
13 done things that they did, and I do not like to talk
14 about it because when I do not think about it, I forget
15 everything, because these are all very bad memories.
16 I kept a restaurant, so most of these guards, Mirso and
17 Spiljak who came to Tarcin when I was there, when I was
18 brought to the silo, those were people who came and sat
19 down with me 100 times, more than 100 times. If I see
20 that he drank too much, I drive him home, I gave them
21 money when they needed it for their wedding or when
22 their father died. I could not understand that and
23 I still cannot understand today that something like that
24 could have happened.
25 Q. So your answer is you really did not pay attention to
1 all of these events that were occurring in your country
2 and in your area simply because you thought that nothing
3 bad would happen; is that pretty much what you are
4 saying, sir?
5 A. Yes, and I thought that this war would never take place,
6 so I was always in my stores because I had to be there,
7 it was a lot of work, it is not small job to have, the
8 restaurant, the stores, the slaughterhouse. If you want
9 to do it well, you have to be there all the time, and
10 just to add, there was -- Vesna who was working there
11 and she was Croatian and I made no distinction between
12 her and my sister and she worked there for seven years.
13 Had I treated her badly, she would not have stayed for
14 seven years.
15 Q. And people would come into your stores and your
16 restaurant and you would deal with the public every day,
17 right? You are in the retail business.
18 A. I think that there were very few people from Sarajevo
19 who would not come down to my shop and get meat there.
20 It always had fresh meat, it was on the main highway.
21 I think that there were very few people from Sarajevo,
22 from Hadzici, Tuzla, Zenica, even Belgrade, Zagreb.
23 Q. So you dealt with the public every day; that is what you
24 do in the retail business. Did you not hear people
25 talking about these events going on?
1 A. Sometimes some people would say, maybe there will be
2 war, when it happened in Croatia, they say, "no, this
3 will not happen here, it will pass us, because people in
4 these parts, they would not fight each other", so people
5 would say that something could happen, but not in this
6 area, it will pass this area.
7 MR. MORAN: Your Honour, I will pass the witness. Thank you
8 very much.
9 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Thank you very much.
10 MS. McMURREY: May it please the court.
11 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Yes, you may proceed.
12 MS. McMURREY: I do not know if you want to, we have ten
13 minutes, would you like to break early? I can ask some
14 questions now if you would like.
15 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: No, we can take the break at 11.30.
16 Cross-examined by MS. McMURREY
17 Q. Good morning, Mr. J.
18 A. Good morning.
19 Q. Just to let you know, I am the last Defence counsel to
20 question you, and if we have an agreement like the one
21 with Mr. Moran, that you listen to the question and try
22 to only answer the question I am asking, then we will
23 both be finished here pretty quickly. Is that an
25 A. I agree with that.
1 Q. Also I am sure that the Prosecutor had spoken to you
2 earlier about only testifying about things you have
3 personal knowledge of, so if we can have another
4 agreement that when I ask you a question you will not
5 answer to what you heard, but you will only answer what
6 you personally experienced or witnessed; is that an
8 A. It is agreed.
9 Q. I am sorry, I forgot to introduce myself. I am Cynthia
10 McMurrey and I represent Mr. Landzo.
11 Just an overview here; you made what is equivalent
12 to about four statements before testifying here today,
13 did you not?
14 A. I do not know exactly, maybe.
15 Q. The first one would have been the one on June 9th 1992,
16 to the Territorial Defence and MUP while you were in
17 Celebici; that one. You acknowledge that one, do you
19 A. Yes, when I was detained, correct.
20 Q. That was June 1992. The second one was February
21 8th 1993, you gave a statement to the Serbian Counsel
22 Information Centre to someone named Ksenija Lukic, is
23 that correct?
24 A. I do not know what the name was, maybe.
25 Q. The third one would have been on October 20th 1995 to
1 Mr. Regis Abribat with the OTP, is that right?
2 A. Yes, I think so. From here, you mean the investigators,
3 is that who you are referring to? I do not know who you
4 are referring to. What year was this? I did not
6 Q. It was October 1995 and it was the representative of the
7 Prosecutor's office, yes.
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. And then you signed a fourth statement on February
10 21st 1996 with another representative of the
11 Prosecutor's office, where you stated that you had an
12 opportunity to review your statement of 1995 and that
13 everything you said in that statement from 1995 was true
14 and correct to the best of your knowledge; is that not
16 A. That I do not know. I do not remember that. I do not
17 know that.
18 Q. You do not remember having them come ask you to sign an
19 affidavit and an acknowledgment, and signing one for a
20 Mr. Ole Hortemo?
21 A. I think that that is what happened. I think he did
23 Q. Thank you. So we are looking at four different
24 statements. I want to go to another subject; how long
25 have you been in The Hague, Mr. J?
1 A. In The Hague, I have been here since last Saturday.
2 I do not know what day it is today.
3 Q. Some of the other witnesses that have come to testify
4 here for the Prosecution have been accompanied by an
5 escort from the Association of Detainees. Have you been
6 accompanied by one of these escorts from Belgrade?
7 A. No.
8 Q. Thank you very much.
9 A. I have had no escort from the Association of Detainees.
10 Q. But you know who they are, do you not?
11 A. I had a person with me.
12 Q. You have a person that travelled to The Hague with you?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. If you do not mind, I do not know whether we need to go
15 in private session or not, is that person a family
16 member or is that an escort from wherever you come from?
17 A. I do not know how you think about it, a man came and
18 then I went with him, a man came, we went, he said,
19 "would you go to The Hague and I am going too", so we
20 are going together. That is how we got here.
21 MS. McMURREY: I think I can clear this up, Ms. McHenry.
22 Is this person you are referring to a person from the
23 Tribunal or not?
24 A. I think he works for the Tribunal.
25 Q. Okay, thank you very much. You also, on the statement
1 that you gave on February 21st 1993 to the Serbian
2 Counsel Information Centre -- that centre, is it also a
3 branch of the Association of Detainees in Belgrade?
4 A. I do not know, I was -- I never visited this Association
5 of Detainees in Belgrade, I was never there, so I do not
6 know. I heard from the others that it exists, that this
7 Association of Detainees exists, but I do not know what
8 branch of what they are, but I heard from the other
9 detainees that there is such a thing as an Association
10 of Detainees.
11 MS. McMURREY: Your Honour, could we go into private
12 session for just one second. I have a question I need
13 to ask, I am not quite sure whether this person is still
14 protected or not. He was at one time and I am not sure.
15 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Can we go into private session for this
17 (In closed session)
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5 (In open session)
6 MS. McMURREY: After you were examined, Mr. J, you were
7 allowed to take your X-rays and your urine reports and
8 your blood work with you, were you not?
9 A. When the doctor examined me, he sent me to another
10 hospital to see a psychiatrist, I cannot remember
11 exactly the name of the hospital, I know I went to see a
12 psychiatrist who examined me --
13 Q. Excuse me, Mr. J, the question was, when you were
14 examined and you left the hospital, you were allowed to
15 take a copy of your X-rays and your blood report with
16 you, were you not?
17 A. I cannot remember that.
18 Q. Thank you very much.
19 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: You did not ask whether he even had
20 X-rays. You assumed he had?
21 MS. McMURREY: I did not. Mr. J, you did have X-rays and
22 blood work done during your examination? And please do
23 not mention the name of the doctor, because we are back
24 in public session.
25 A. I think they did not.
1 Q. Thank you very much. When you were exchanged in
2 November, you were taken directly to Belgrade, were you
4 A. No one took me there, I went there myself, immediately,
5 because I did not want to stay there, to kill poor
7 Q. Mr. J, can you tell us what the Serbian Counsel
8 Information Centre is?
9 A. I have no idea what it is. I do not know.
10 Q. Can you tell us who sent you to them to make a
12 A. I do not know, somebody -- I went there and made a
13 statement. Who it was -- I cannot remember who it was,
14 this was a long time ago in 1993.
15 Q. So you do not remember how you found this place to make
16 a statement then?
17 A. I do not remember that.
18 Q. While you were there giving a statement, were there
19 other detainees there making statements to this counsel
21 A. (redacted)
22 Q. Did you see any other detainees there at the time?
23 A. No, I did not.
24 Q. Are you aware of any other detainees that gave
25 statements to the Serbian Counsel Information Centre?
1 A. I do not know, I have no idea, they probably did.
2 Q. Can you give us the address of the Serbian Counsel
3 Information Centre in Belgrade?
4 A. I cannot give you the address of the flat I stayed in in
6 Q. Thank you. Can you tell us who else you have discussed
7 your experiences at Celebici with?
8 A. I do not know what you mean, "who else".
9 Q. I mean after you were released from Celebici, it would
10 be natural if you and some of the other detainees got
11 together to -- even a psychological or emotional relief,
12 to discuss what happened and what occurred at Celebici.
13 Were you afforded that luxury?
14 A. For instance, while I was in Belgrade, I only met with
15 Janko. The other detainees were not there, I doubt it,
16 maybe some of them were, but I did not meet with them to
17 talk about it, because my sister rented a flat for me in
18 New Belgrade. I do not recall the exact address, it was
19 close to a marketplace, and I stayed there for a while,
20 until -- that is how it was. I was there for a while.
21 Q. All right, thank you. I am going to go on to a
22 different subject now.
23 I believe you stated in all of your statements
24 that you lived in Bradina, is that not true?
25 A. I lived in Bradina, yes.
1 Q. You stated yesterday in your testimony that Maca had a
2 flat next to yours in Konjic and you told us today that
3 you had a flat in Konjic close to the post office; is
4 that not correct?
5 A. Yes, it is correct. There was one metre between our two
6 doors. I had two houses in Bradina and an apartment in
7 Konjic, in the centre, near the post office. I do not
8 remember the exact address. Maca and Makaron, these two
9 brothers, lived next door. It is the same entrance only
10 two apartments, one next to the door.
11 Q. In fact you lived on 15th September Street, did you not?
12 A. I did not understand.
13 Q. In Konjic, your flat was on 15th September Street in
15 A. I think that was its name, just behind the post office.
16 Whether it is 15th September Street I do not know,
17 I have forgotten.
18 Q. And your balcony faced the post office, did it not?
19 A. Yes, it did.
20 Q. And the Landzo family lived on the fourth floor of the
21 neighbouring apartment building right next to you, did
22 they not?
23 A. I heard that, as I was working in Bradina, my wife and
24 children lived there for a while, and then the women and
25 children moved to Bradina as well, so that I heard that
1 he was working there and that his mother was there, who
2 had lived in the -- who had worked in the municipality
3 where my wife had also worked, but personally, I did not
4 know him, I did not have any personal contact with him.
5 I may have met him in the street and seen him, but when
6 I got to the camp, (redacted)
8 Q. Excuse me, Mr. J, remember how we talked about not
9 testifying about what you heard from somebody else
10 about, only about what you personally know; we have, we
11 have an agreement about that, do you remember?
12 A. Yes, fine.
13 Q. The truth about the flat in Konjic is that while you
14 were in Celebici and before the war, your wife and your
15 two daughters -- who, by the way, at that time were
16 about the same age as two of my daughters -- lived at
17 the flat in Konjic, did they not; in fact your
18 daughter -- I am sorry.
19 MS. McHENRY: My only objection would be she has already
20 stated that she does not want this witness to state what
21 he heard from others, and since the question assumes
22 that he was detained in Celebici, I will just note, in
23 fairness to the witness, that he cannot answer this
24 question from his own personal knowledge, so I would
25 either object or ask Defence counsel to withdraw her
1 request that everything he testifies to has to be
2 something he witnessed himself.
3 MS. McMURREY: I agree, and I believe this witness knows
4 where his family was while he was detained at Celebici
5 and I will ask him if he does.
6 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Let us hear your question.
7 MS. McMURREY: Okay. Mr. J, your family lived on 15th
8 September Street before the war and your children
9 attended school at the Musala school called Zvonimir
10 Belesa-Nono at Musala, did they not, before the war?
11 A. My children for a time before the war, long before the
12 war, they lived in the apartment in Konjic and from
13 somewhere, 1988 onwards, they lived in Bradina and they
14 went to school in Bradina, because there was a school
15 nearby, an elementary school right nearby. My older
16 daughter went to Konjic by bus.
17 Q. Thank you. So your older daughter went to school in
18 Konjic and while -- if you know, while you were detained
19 in Celebici, your family stayed in the flat in Konjic,
20 did they not?
21 A. While I was detained in Celebici, my family for a short
22 period, because my family was captured in Bradina, taken
23 to Musala, and then I remember well the name, because my
24 wife told me, somebody called Ivica Bosnjak, who was a
25 policeman before the war, came to take them out and took
1 them to the apartment.
2 Q. So your answer to my question is yes, they did stay in
3 the flat in Konjic, as far as you know, while you were
4 in Celebici?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. You not only had a butcher's shop in Bradina, you also
7 had a butcher's shop in Konjic, did you not?
8 A. No.
9 Q. No?
10 A. I did not have a butcher's shop in Konjic.
11 Q. Okay, thank you. Now I am going to go to a different
12 topic also. Before you arrived at Celebici, you were
13 beaten, were you not?
14 A. They beat me only in Bradina, but not very heavily, a
15 little bit, somebody would kick me, somebody would --
16 and they beat me before that while they were driving me
17 in a car and when I came out of the car, and during the
18 ride in the car and when I got out, some people would
19 hit me, but there were many people there when I was
20 brought in, when I was brought to Pazaric by car to some
21 sort of a command building that they had there.
22 Q. Thank you, Mr. J. Also you were transferred to the
23 Musala sports hall and it was your statement before,
24 under oath, that you were beaten at the Musala sports
25 hall by an Agan Ramic; is that not true?
1 A. Agan Ramic would push me around a bit, he did not beat
2 me, he did interrogate me at 1.00 am, he did threaten,
3 he asked for money, "give me 5,000", and that sort of
4 thing and then there was another man from Sokolovic
5 Kolonija, who said he was in charge of the exchange, and
6 then he said at 1.00 am, "I have been to Belgrade and we
7 saw somebody", and when they took me into the school
8 Kravar said "question him as much as you like but you
9 must not beat him". That was one night and then another
10 night, that day Kravar was there, the next day there was
11 Edo MUP, and then there was Agan, this man who said he
12 came from Sokolovic colony, I do not know him, and a man
13 from Brdjani, a younger man, they called him Fesa, he
14 was a rather fat man, he said if I have me money, "give
15 me 5,000".
16 MS. McMURREY: Your Honour, I am sorry.
17 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Is this the answer you were expecting?
18 MS. McMURREY: No, your Honour. I cannot even remember
19 what the question was at this point, but I think it was:
20 he was beaten at Musala by Agan Ramic, is that not
21 true? I think he was saying that he was beaten by
22 Mr. Ramic. I believe what you said was that you were not
23 beaten very badly by Mr. Ramic, so your statement to
24 the --
25 A. Yes, that is what I said.
1 Q. So your statement to the OTP, which says that "Agan
2 Ramic was the worst guard at Musala and he beat me three
3 consecutive nights", that is not true then, is it?
4 A. Agan Ramic was not a guard in Musala, I did not say
5 that. If somebody recorded it that way, it is an
6 error. He was not a guard at all, he would come from
7 time to time, he would consult with Pace, with Zijo,
8 with the two brothers who were guards there, that they
9 should give me to them so that I could go to Bradina and
10 look for the money.
11 Q. Mr. J, my one question for you is were you or were you
12 not beaten for three consecutive nights while at Musala
13 sports hall?
14 A. I was not beaten all three nights, I was taken out, that
15 was the last evening, three consecutive evenings, three
16 nights before being discharged from there. So I was
17 discharged this evening and then the three evenings
18 before that, and every time, they would say, "think it
19 over, we will come back tomorrow, if you change your
20 mind, we will take you out", and the last evening he
21 said "this is the last chance you have to give us the
23 Q. Mr. J, I am going to go on to a different topic now, if
24 you do not mind. Going on to when you were in Celebici,
25 when you first arrived at Celebici, I believe you also
1 have stated that there was a Vujicic Miroslav who
2 attempted to flee and was shot attempting to escape; is
3 that true?
4 A. I heard about that, I did not see it with my own eyes.
5 Q. We ask that you only testify as to what you actually saw
6 yourself, so you just say "I do not know personally",
7 that is the answer, okay? Thank you.
8 MS. McHENRY: I am going to object to that. I think the
9 witness is allowed -- if he is asked if something is
10 true, he can say "I heard about it but I do not know
12 MS. McMURREY: Thank you. That is absolutely correct,
13 Ms. McHenry, thank you.
14 Also, when you first arrived at Celebici, is it
15 not true that the soldiers and the guards that you saw
16 at Celebici on June 5th or 6th had HVO insignias on your
17 uniforms, they were HVO guards at that time, were they
19 A. I do not know that, because I did not look at the
20 insignia. I did not dare even look at people, I would
21 have my head bowed.
22 Q. Thank you very much. You do not know whether they were
23 HVO. You do recollect that some time after June
24 10th that a new group of guards were brought in, and it
25 was a phasing out of the HVO being in charge of
1 Celebici, and some new guards at that time; is that not
3 MS. McHENRY: I am going to object, the witness has already
4 said he does not know if it was HVO.
5 MS. McMURREY: This is later. First my question was June
6 5th or 6th when he first arrived, now it is after June
7 10th, if he knows.
8 Your Honours, I apologise, I really do, I was just
9 addressing Ms. McHenry and I know that is totally
10 improper, so if I do that again, please let me, I do
12 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: I am learning the new procedure here.
13 MS. McMURREY: I do not want to make it the new procedure
14 and I am sorry if I have.
15 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: It is all right. Carry on.
16 MS. McMURREY: I think the question was: after June 10th,
17 you are aware that there was a phasing out of the HVO
18 soldiers at Celebici and new guards were brought in
19 around that time, if you know; do you remember that
21 A. I do not remember that, who was going and who was
22 coming. I just know quite a number of the guards by
24 Q. Thank you. Also, you said that Ms. Ismeta told you
25 that you were placed in category number 1. Is it not
1 true that the most dangerous categories were the 1, 2
2 and 3 and those were the categories of people that were
3 placed in tunnel number 9, is that not true?
4 A. I was not aware of that, I heard of those categories for
5 the first time when I got to the infirmary, when Ismeta
6 came, and there was somebody called Drazan, I think his
7 surname was Draganic, and she would talk to him and she
8 said there were some categories. None of us were aware
9 of that and we asked how many categories were there and
10 she said there were 9. Each one of us individually
11 asked, she was not a bad person, she was not an
12 extremist, there she was, she had to --
13 Q. Thank you, Mr. J. Looking back today on it, you know you
14 were placed in category number 1 probably because you
15 possessed a weapon, is that correct?
16 A. I do not know, she just said "you are in category number
17 1". I had a weapon before the war, it is no secret.
18 Why I was put in the first category I have no idea.
19 I do not know, she just told me that.
20 Q. Thank you. I am going to go to a different subject.
21 I believe, going on to tunnel 9, you had stated that in
22 one of your statements that one loaf of bread was given
23 to you and that it was dropped at the front of the
24 tunnel and it fell into excrement and you all had to
25 lick it off and eat it anyway; is that what you stated?
1 A. I did not say that it fell in front of the tunnel,
2 I said that it would fall inside the tunnel, where we
3 would walk and when you go to urinate at nighttime, you
4 cannot see where you are stepping and then you pass that
5 way with those same shoes and you had to pick it up
6 because otherwise you would die.
7 Q. So the excrement you were talking about was spread by
8 the detainees themselves, is that right?
9 A. The excrement we were talking about came from the
10 prisoners themselves, because it was at the end of the
11 tunnel and when people, when they would step on it, and
12 so they would carry it across on their feet, because
13 there was a very small path that you could pass along,
14 it was less than half a metre, it was a very narrow
15 tunnel, we sat leaning against the wall along the
16 right-hand side when you entered and between our feet
17 and the other wall there was a very narrow path. We
18 would sit with our knees up and our hands on our knees,
19 that is how we had to sit.
20 Q. When we are talking about the food that you were given
21 in tunnel 9, one of the detainees himself was appointed
22 to go out and get the food and bring it back to you, was
23 he not?
24 A. Sometimes this prisoner would bring it and sometimes the
1 Q. Who was the detainee in tunnel number 9 that was chosen
2 to bring the food for you all?
3 A. Mostly it was Zara.
4 Q. Thank you, and by Zara you are talking about Zarko
5 Mrkajic, right?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Also, you know that there was very little food in the
8 Konjic area in general, was there not?
9 A. That I do not know. I never thought about it at the
11 Q. Were you aware that there were some 20,000 refugees that
12 were stuck in the Konjic area during 1992?
13 A. I was not aware of that: I do not know about that.
14 Q. Thank you. On to another topic, you described these
15 beatings and this maltreatment that you suffered at
16 Celebici; I would just like to ask you if there are any
17 physical manifestations of that mistreatment from
18 Celebici that you can tell us about on your body?
19 A. Yes, I still have it here, you can see the traces here.
20 Q. Can you tell me what that is? I am not very close to
21 you and I cannot see anything. Is it a scar?
22 A. Scars, you can see them still, and on my knees.
23 Q. Thank you. I want to go on also back to tunnel 9 and
24 I believe it was your testimony yesterday that you
25 stated that you were seated close to the door and that
1 you could see everything outside the door when the door
2 was open, is that not correct?
3 A. It was close to the door, yes, if things were happening
4 just in front of the door, if they were not far away
5 from the door, if it was next to the wall near the door,
6 if it is right in front of the door, close by. I could
7 not see further than that.
8 MS. McMURREY: I would like to ask the usher to show this
9 to -- I do not remember whether this is a protected
10 witness or not that drew this drawing; Ms. McHenry, do
11 you know? It is part of your evidence?
12 I am sorry, your Honour, I am addressing
13 Ms. McHenry again. I apologise, but this is part of
14 the Prosecution's evidence and I just wanted to make
15 sure that I am not exposing some protected witness whose
16 name is on the drawing.
17 MS. McHENRY: The Prosecution would have to see it, your
19 MS. McMURREY: Could I ask the usher to show it to the
20 Prosecution before I make a mistake? (Handed).
21 MS. McHENRY: That is not a protected witness.
22 MS. McMURREY: Thank you very much.
23 Your Honour, could I have the usher show this
24 document to the witness, please? This was introduced
25 into evidence when this witness, Milenko Kuljanin, had
1 testified previously.
2 MS. McHENRY: Your Honours, may the Prosecution have the
3 number of that so we can look at our copy? Or, if it is
4 easier, can Defence counsel provide us with another
6 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: What is the number?
7 MS. McMURREY: That is my only copy of that document and
8 I do not really know -- the witness's name was Milenko
10 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: I think the Registrar can find it.
11 THE REGISTRAR: The document is marked D26/4.
12 MS. McMURREY: I would like to ask you, Mr. J, was Milenko
13 Kuljanin in the tunnel with you during that time?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. And the seating order that Mr. Kuljanin has described
16 there and illustrated for us, is that an accurate
17 depiction of where everybody sat?
18 A. No, that is not correct. For instance, there is Momir
19 Mrkajic who sat farther down, at the bottom, and maybe
20 sat up there for five or six days only, so ...
21 MS. McMURREY: I am going to ask the usher to please put
22 this on the ELMO for us and I believe we are going to
23 have to go into private session if we are going to point
24 out where he sat on this drawing, your Honours. May
25 I go into private session briefly?
1 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Yes. Where who sat?
2 MS. McMURREY: Because his name is on this document.
3 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: May we go into private session?
4 (In closed session)
13 Page 7636 redacted - in closed session
13 Page 7637 redacted - in closed session
13 Page 7638 redacted - in closed session
20) (In open session)
21 MS. McMURREY: So Mr. J, it would be accurate to say that
22 the tunnel itself was long and narrow and slanted
23 downwards; would that not be accurate?
24 A. It was long, not too long, it was not that long. If we
25 said long, that could be 100 metres. I do not know
1 exactly how long it was, I know it was narrow and it was
2 longish and that it was slanting a little bit. How
3 long, if it is long, that could be 100 metres, 50
4 metres; it was not that long.
5 Q. So it would be fair to say that unless something
6 happened, even if the door were open, unless something
7 happened right in the doorway, the only sight you would
8 have would be the sky, would it not?
9 A. You could see if somebody was standing in front of the
10 door, if they beat somebody against a wall, you could
11 see that because I was in that position. As I say, if
12 I were in the front position, I could see less, but if
13 you step back, you could see more.
14 Q. Okay. I want to go on to Zarko Mrkajic. I believe your
15 testimony yesterday was that he was given a lot of
16 freedom and that you considered him a liar; is that what
17 you said yesterday?
18 A. I think he was free and that is what I said. I think he
19 had freedom of movement. I think that nobody among the
20 prisoners had any comparable type of freedom. He
21 behaved in the camp as if he was not a camp inmate, and
22 that was what I noticed and other people noticed that
23 too. I am not the only one who says that, because he
24 walked around the camp.
25 Q. Mr. J, you never mentioned anything about this special
1 treatment of Zarko Mrkajic in any of your four
2 statements before, did you?
3 A. I do not remember that. I do not remember whether
4 I mentioned it or not.
5 Q. In fact, even though you said that he did not tell the
6 truth, in your testimony for the last two days, you have
7 continued to rely on things that he told you in the
8 camp, did you not?
9 A. I did not understand this.
10 Q. When you were testifying yesterday and today, you
11 continued to say "Zarko told us this, Zara told us that,
12 Zara told us this"; even though you considered him not
13 to tell the truth, you still relied on what he told you
14 in the camp, did you not?
15 A. I personally did not rely on what he was saying, because
16 I knew that he was not telling the truth or lying.
17 Q. But when testifying before this panel of judges, you
18 have continuously referred to what Zara told you, have
19 you not?
20 A. He often said things, he would say things, whether that
21 was the whole truth, that is a different matter, but
22 whenever he would leave and he would come back, he would
23 tell me "you are going to be exchanged, they are going
24 to kill this or that, they have seven people on the
25 list, you are going to go to Zenica" and things like
1 that, that was rubbish.
2 Q. So Mr. J, your source of information while you were in
3 tunnel 9 was what Zara told you, was it not?
4 A. The source of information while I was in 9 was what Zara
5 told me, but also what I saw with my own eyes when
6 I would go out, when I would pluck the grass or
7 slaughter animals, when I would pick the cigarettes
8 butts, when I was carrying around the television antenna
9 and things like that. That was also source of
10 information, and when Smajo would come and he would
11 talk, he would say some things and then on one occasion
12 somebody else came --
13 Q. Excuse me, what you are saying is you had other sources
14 of information too, is that right?
15 A. Yes, the guards, the guards would come and talk to the
16 group, they would play the accordion, so we could hear
17 things, what they were talking about.
18 Q. Also whenever you were mowing the yard and picking up
19 cigarette butts, you were allowed to empty the grass
20 into the river, did you not?
21 A. I did not mow, I plucked it with my hands.
22 Q. Excuse me, whenever you were plucking the grass and
23 doing your duties in the tunnel, you were allowed to go
24 outside the compound of Celebici and dispose of the
25 grass, did you not?
1 A. There was a case, I never left the camp, once it was --
2 I had to pick up some cigarette butts and put it in some
3 container and there were guards there and they raised
4 the ramp and they said "go to the bridge", which was
5 about 30 or 40 metres down the road, and they said,
6 "just dump it there", and I went there and then it was
7 a container and it was only just a few cigarette butts
8 and then they made me push this and pull this container
9 and they laughed as I had -- they were up there at the
10 gate and I had to do this.
11 Q. Mr. J, by your going outside of Celebici, you also had
12 more freedom of movement than 90 per cent of the other
13 detainees, did you not?
14 A. I did not leave the camp, I just took that container
15 there to turn it over there, and then push it back in,
16 and they made me do this because they wanted to laugh
17 because I had to do this, I had to push this container
18 around and I could barely walk myself.
19 Q. Okay. I am going to go on to another topic. You
20 discussed at length the incident with Slavko Susic.
21 I am not finished yet. You talked about the incident
22 with Mr. Susic in your statement to the Serbian Counsel
23 Information Centre on February 8th 1993 and you never
24 mentioned the name Zenga or Landzo, did you?
25 MR. ACKERMAN: Excuse me a moment, your Honour. We all
1 agree, your Honour, there is an odour over here that
2 smells like an electrical fire and I am concerned about
3 it. It smells like burning wires or something.
4 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: We can stop here and go for lunch and
5 they will investigate what has happened.
6 MS. McMURREY: Thank you very much, your Honour.
7 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: The Trial Chamber will rise.
8 (12.55 pm)
9 (Adjourned until 2.30 pm)
1 (2.30 pm)
2 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Kindly remind the witness he is still
3 on his oath.
4 THE REGISTRAR: I should like to remind you, sir, that you
5 are still under oath.
6 A. Yes.
7 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Ms. McMurrey, may we continue.
8 MS. McMURREY: Thank you, your Honours. I guess we will
9 continue where we were before some pyromaniac hit both
10 sides of the room. Just to clean the record up also,
11 I would like at this time to ask to withdraw exhibit
12 D28/4, Madam Registrar?
13 THE REGISTRAR: D26/4.
14 MS. McMURREY: Okay. I would like to withdraw that, I did
15 not tender it and he did not make the marks, so I would
16 like to withdraw it, please.
17 Mr. J, before we went to lunch we had talked about
18 the fact that in your statement to the Serbian Counsel
19 Information Centre on February 8th 1993, while
20 discussing Mr. Susic, you had never mentioned Mr. Landzo's
21 name, did you, or Zenga?
22 A. I do not know whether I did or not, I do not remember
23 that. It was a long time ago. I do not know whether
24 I mentioned him or not. I did not really like to talk
25 about those things much.
1 Q. Mr. J, are you telling us that before you testified today
2 you did not review your prior statements?
3 A. Some of them I did, I did.
4 Q. In fact, the Prosecutor gave you a copy of your prior
5 statements, did she not?
6 A. Yes, she gave them to me. I did look at some
8 MS. McHENRY: Just so the record is clear, this is his
9 statement that is only available in English and was not
10 given by the Prosecution to the witness, and as far as
11 the Prosecution knows, he has not seen it since 1993 and
12 we do not have an original language copy.
13 MS. McMURREY: Okay. So the question was, did you --
14 A. I saw yesterday the statement made when I was
15 interrogated for the first time.
16 Q. When you say "interrogated for the first time", that is
17 the statement you made at Celebici in June 1992, is that
19 A. Yes, that one.
20 Q. I also want to refer to the statement that you gave the
21 Office of the Prosecutor on October 20th 1995, and in
22 that statement you never used -- in fact, the words you
23 used for Mr. Landzo, you said it was Senad or Zijo
24 Landzo; is that not what you said?
25 A. Probably, I knew him as Zenga. I do not even know now
1 what his proper name is. Senad, Zijo.
2 Q. As a matter of fact, you really did not know him --
3 A. I know him as Zenga.
4 Q. As a matter of fact you did not --
5 A. I do not remember knowing him from before the war.
6 Q. Mr. J, I am going to ask you a question and then you will
7 respond, please. We had an agreement?
8 A. Very well.
9 Q. You had stated in your testimony yesterday on page 7465
10 of the official transcript that:
11 "I think most prisoners knew him as Zenga. Later
12 on, I found out that his name was Landzo."
13 So what you are saying is that you did not know
14 who Zenga was, you found out after you got to hangar 6
15 or someone else told you, is that not correct?
16 A. No, I knew in number 9 too, because he would come to
17 number 9 before that. He was a guard in number 6 but he
18 also came to number 9. I knew him, I saw him before
19 that too, many times.
20 Q. In fact, your memory was better in February 8th 1993
21 than it was in October 1995, would you not say, of the
22 events of Celebici?
23 A. It depended on the time. Today I remember something and
24 then tomorrow I may not remember the same thing, the
25 same name or -- for instance, I could not recall the
1 name of the man lying next to me in the infirmary, Srdo
2 Gligorevic, he was, but I remembered afterwards, the
3 next day.
4 Q. Mr. J, I believe that in your statement, the closest to
5 your release from Celebici, that you never mentioned the
6 name of Zenga or Landzo until you were questioned by the
7 Prosecution about Mr. Landzo in November 1995; is that
8 not correct?
9 MS. McHENRY: Objection, asked and answered. I would also,
10 your Honours, at this time ask that if Defence counsel
11 is going to continue with any questions about this that
12 the statement be -- that she is using to impeach him be
13 introduced into evidence as it relates to his
14 impeachment. For instance, given that this witness has
15 not seen the statement since 1993, I think, your Honour,
16 he should be allowed to view this statement and see that
17 the names of -- there is not the name of any guard
19 MS. McMURREY: Your Honour, I am going to object to her
20 testifying at this point. The best evidence is to be
21 placed before the court and the court can determine that
22 and at this point Ms. McHenry is testifying and placing
23 evidence before the court.
24 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: I thought you were both assisting each
1 MS. McMURREY: I suppose we were, but at this point, I have
2 no problem of introducing this statement for the limited
3 purposes of impeachment. I only have my one copy in
4 English that was provided by the Prosecution and I have
5 markings all over it, so I guess I would have to apply
6 to the Prosecution to provide us with a clean copy of
8 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Ms. McHenry, do you have a clean copy
9 of the statement?
10 MS. McHENRY: Yes, your Honour, we do. I will again for
11 the record note that the Prosecution does not have one
12 in Serbo-Croatian, which is presumably the language it
13 was originally taken in, and it was not translated by
14 anyone connected with the Tribunal, but to the extent
15 that we have something that was given to us in English,
16 I am happy to give it to the Registrar.
17 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: I am not too sure about the validity of
18 these things. In what language was the statement
20 MS. McMURREY: Your Honour, I assume that it was originally
21 taken in Serbo-Croatian because it was taken in Belgrade
22 and, of course, then we do not have the original
23 document with the signature of the witness on it because
24 that would have been on the original Serbo-Croatian form
25 of it.
1 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: He might not be sure about the accuracy
2 of the translations.
3 MS. McMURREY: I suppose that we can ask him if he made
4 this statement -- he has already admitted that he made
5 it. Of course we cannot verify that the translation is
6 accurate. I do not know whether the Prosecution's
7 office did the translation or where the English version
8 came from. It was provided to us by the Prosecutor's
10 MS. McHENRY: The Prosecution does not have it in the
11 original language. The Prosecution did not translate
12 it, nor did anyone associated with the Tribunal. We
13 cannot verify its accuracy at all. It has never been
14 shown to the witness for him to do it. I believe that
15 this was a document attached to -- anyway, the
16 Prosecution does not have anything and therefore we
17 would not be seeking to rely on it.
18 MS. McMURREY: Your Honour, it was the Prosecutor who asked
19 to have it admitted into evidence. If she says she is
20 not seeking to rely on it --
21 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: When you are trying to impeach a
22 witness with a statement you are relying upon, you have
23 to be sure about its accuracy.
24 MS. McMURREY: Your Honour, he has made inconsistent
25 statements. He has verified that he made this statement
1 to the Serbian Counsel Information Centre in Belgrade
2 and, because we do not have access to the original, I am
3 assuming that what we have -- we are asking him, he can
4 verify or deny one way or the other.
5 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Put it to him.
6 MS. McMURREY: Thank you. In your statement --
7 JUDGE JAN: Just a minute. You supplied the statement to
8 the Defence?
9 MS. McHENRY: Yes, your Honour.
10 JUDGE JAN: Where did you get that statement from?
11 MS. McHENRY: Your Honour, I would have to check to be
12 100 per cent sure. I know we did not receive it from
13 the witness.
14 JUDGE JAN: Obviously.
15 MS. McHENRY: I believe that initially a number of entities
16 had provided materials to the United Nations, both
17 before the existence of the Tribunal and afterwards, and
18 I believe that this was among those documents. I am not
19 positive of that, but I believe that is where it is
20 from, and again, because the Prosecution has had a
21 policy of full disclosure, we have provided it to the
22 Defence, but we do not necessarily -- because the
23 witness has not authenticated it, we do not believe that
24 it is necessarily an accurate statement.
25 JUDGE JAN: Surely the organisation which supplied the
1 statement to the organisation from which you received it
2 could not be interested in giving a distorted
3 translation of his statement.
4 MS. McHENRY: Your Honour, I cannot answer that. The
5 Prosecution has not been relying upon this as an
6 accurate or inaccurate translation, but to the extent
7 that Defence counsel was going to impeach him,
8 especially given that the witness has already said he
9 has not seen it and he does not remember the details,
10 I thought it important that your Honours at least see
11 that for instance, and again the evidence speaks for
12 itself, but just as Defence counsel is allowed to say
13 "is it not the case that it does not contain the name
14 of Zenga", I think the Prosecution is allowed to point
15 out and ask that the court know that there is not the
16 name of any guard whatsoever, it is just not contained
17 in the statement.
18 MS. McMURREY: Your Honour, I would ask that because the
19 Defence does not have access to any of the documents
20 turned over from the Serbian government, the Association
21 of Detainees, or the Serbian Counsel Information Centre,
22 that we be able to rely on the information given to us
23 by the Prosecutor and we have proceeded all the way
24 through this trial in reliance on the evidence that was
25 given to us by the Prosecution.
1 MS. McHENRY: I would like to respond to that, your Honour.
2 MS. McMURREY: Your Honour, I also have just received a
3 Serbo-Croatian version of this statement and therefore
4 we could take a short break and let the witness himself
5 review it and see if that is the statement that he made.
6 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Let us get him to look at it.
7 MS. RESIDOVIC: Your Honours, may I be of assistance?
8 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: About this witness?
9 MS. RESIDOVIC: Yes.
10 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: You provided the statement, yes?
11 MS. RESIDOVIC: The Prosecution in December gave us more
12 than 60 various statements and the agreement then was
13 that we have them translated. I have with me a
14 translation done by a court translator into English,
15 Jasna, I do not remember her surname, and we can see the
16 fax number, and that is how we received the translation
17 of the text given to us by the Prosecution. If that may
18 be of any assistance before it is compared by the
19 Tribunal's translators, I have provided a copy.
20 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: If he can confirm this Serbo-Croatian
21 version of it, if he can identify his handwriting,
22 perhaps we can then rely on that, on the translation.
23 MS. McMURREY: Your Honour, the problem is that there is no
24 handwritten signature on any of these.
25 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Even on the Croatian one which he
2 MS. McMURREY: Your Honour, what happened was the
3 Prosecution had an English version of his statement,
4 then when they gave us the English version, then the
5 Serbo-Croatian version was created from the English
6 version, so there really was no original.
7 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: It is a reverse, I see.
8 MS. McMURREY: There is no original to work with here, all
9 we have is the Serbo-Croatian version created from the
10 version the Prosecution gave us, which did not have a
11 signature on it. If we could allow the witness to look
12 at this and see if this is the statement that he made?
13 I also want to add further, because I think we may
14 have some problems later on dealing with this, that we
15 have been forced to rely on statements given to us by
16 the Prosecution, and we have proceeded in this trial all
17 along in reliance upon the statements that the
18 Prosecutor has given to us. The next witness, and
19 several witnesses before. These statements appear as if
20 they came out of a book of some form, that says "The
21 Serbian Counsel Information Centre". This says
22 "supplement 3", so I assume that the Prosecution has
23 the total book with which we could verify the
24 authenticity of these documents, where they came from,
25 but at this point we are given piecemeal parts of a book
1 that I believe that the Prosecution has access to.
2 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: This is what you could have applied for
3 during your period of investigation.
4 MS. McMURREY: Your Honour, we cannot get documents out of
5 Serbia. We have no way --
6 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: For disclosures, when in fact you got
7 that one, at the time you had these copies, you could
8 have called for disclosure of associated documents.
9 MS. McMURREY: And that probably would have been the most
10 appropriate way to proceed, but we were given volumes,
11 and as we come to each witness is about the time that we
12 are able to sort out the volumes of documents that we
13 have in front of us, because this was provided as part
14 of the evidence for this witness by the Prosecution, we
15 relied upon it. (Pause).
16 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone please.
17 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: The English version which is acceptable
18 to both, and if he can identify his signature there, you
19 can use that.
20 MS. McMURREY: The problem is there is no signature.
21 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: The statement was taken in English and
22 they have translated it into Serbo-Croatian.
23 MS. McMURREY: Probably the statement was taken in
24 Serbo-Croatian, but the only thing provided to us from
25 the Prosecution was the English version, which does not
1 have a signature, so we cannot ask the witness to verify
2 a signature on there because there is none. It just
3 says "handwritten signature".
4 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Is there no version which contains a
6 MS. McMURREY: No version that we possess, your Honour.
7 MS. McHENRY: Your Honour, there is no version that the
8 Prosecution possesses, and let me just again explain,
9 the Prosecution is sometimes challenged by the Defence
10 for not turning over enough material and sometimes for
11 turning over too much material. The Prosecution, with
12 respect to the witnesses it has, takes Office of the
13 Prosecutor statements by investigators and those are
14 turned over to the Defence. In addition, under the full
15 disclosure, and so there can be no claim that the
16 Prosecution is withholding something, if the Prosecution
17 has other material then the Prosecution at least gives
18 the Defence. The Prosecution does not rely on it, and
19 the Prosecution -- and in fact sometimes, for instance,
20 the Prosecution believes it is entirely unreliable, for
21 instance when the Prosecution has had the interrogation
22 statements taken in Celebici, those also are turned over
23 to the Defence, and as part of this full disclosure, but
24 what the Prosecution is relying on is what this
25 witness's testimony is.
1 The Prosecution does not have a Serbo-Croatian
2 version of this statement. If we were going to rely on
3 it, certainly we would have obtained one, but we did
4 not. We are relying on this witness's testimony and,
5 prior to that, to the witness's statement to the Office
6 of the Prosecutor. I do not know if the statement to
7 the Serbian Counsel Information Centre was taken down
8 accurately and if it was translated accurately. That
9 may affect the Defence's ability to use it for
10 impeachment, but certainly they have the Office of the
11 Prosecutor one and I cannot assist the Chamber other
12 than to say the Prosecution, when it provides discovery,
13 does not in any way vouch for the authenticity or the
14 translations of the documents.
15 MS. McMURREY: Your Honour, may I just briefly add a little
16 bit? I know that probably the original of this document
17 is in Belgrade, and we will do our best some time in the
18 future to secure that by subpoena or however we are able
19 to secure the original, but until then, let us go back
20 to where this whole argument began, with Ms. McHenry
21 asking to have this introduced into evidence for
22 impeachment purposes. I have no problems with that, and
23 I would like for the court to have this, since I have
24 questioned from it; he did admit that he made the
25 statement to the Serbian Counsel Information Centre and
1 for impeachment purposes that should be sufficient at
2 this point.
3 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: I think that is an agreed procedure.
4 You can do that and rely on it, because this is all both
5 of you have.
6 MS. McMURREY: I will give the court a clean copy of this
7 for impeachment purposes for the record, okay?
8 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: She gave you one.
9 MS. McMURREY: I have only my copy that is marked on.
10 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: I think the Prosecution was tendering
12 MS. McMURREY: Perfect.
13 MS. McHENRY: If it is all -- are you finished with
14 questioning it, because it is also my only copy.
15 MS. McMURREY: I do have a couple more questions from it,
16 not much.
17 MS. McHENRY: I have a copy which I am happy to give to the
19 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: So you can now use your copy for -- the
20 Registrar takes it for the purposes of tendering it.
21 You can keep yours.
22 MS. McMURREY: I do not think you would want mine.
23 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: You say you have your notes on it.
24 MS. McMURREY: May I proceed?
25 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Yes, you may.
1 MS. McMURREY: Thank you very much. I will go ahead and
2 finish with this statement first, but I want to go to
3 another part. You talked about your release from
4 Celebici, and in your testimony, I believe it was today,
5 I have lost track of time, earlier you said that you
6 were in Musala, that arrangements were made, you were
7 taken to Celebici to the infirmary and that very same
8 day a Frenchman arrived from the ICRC and then you were
9 released into Serbian territory; was that your testimony
10 today, Mr. J?
11 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.
12 MS. McMURREY: Excuse me, Mr. J.
13 THE INTERPRETER: The microphone is on now.
14 MS. McMURREY: I am sorry, your microphone was not on.
15 A. I was released. This is how it was. I was at Musala on
16 the same day, and from Musala, Mr. Delic came to pick me
17 up and a few other prisoners and he said, "come on out
18 and sit in the van", then he took us to Celebici, to the
19 infirmary, all of us, those of us who were with me, I do
20 not remember the exact names of each individual, then in
21 the infirmary there were another --
22 Q. Excuse me, Mr. J, it was a yes or no answer. Was that
23 what happened? Basically from Musala you were taken to
24 Celebici and within 24 hours, you were released into
25 Serbian territory; is that correct? Is that not what
1 you testified to today?
2 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Was that the sequence --
3 A. No translation.
4 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: What is on the headphones is not coming
6 A. No translation.
7 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Check the channel.
8 A. I can hear now.
9 MS. McMURREY: I am going to repeat my question.
10 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: I think all you wanted to ask him was
11 whether he left Musala to Celebici the same day he was
12 discharged into Serbian territory.
13 MS. McMURREY: That is exactly correct.
14 A. When I left Musala, I did not reach Serb-held territory
15 on the same day, but within two days.
16 Q. Thank you, but --
17 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: But you first went to Celebici?
18 A. Yes, I first went from Musala to Celebici, the infirmary
20 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Where did you go from the Celebici
22 A. From the Celebici infirmary I went to Donje Selo, to
23 Zoran Cecez's house.
24 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Now you hear the sequence.
25 MS. McMURREY: Yes. Then your testimony was you got
1 together with some people who drove you to Serb
2 territory; is that basically it?
3 A. Mr. Mucic drove me to Serb-held territory, actually
4 Croatian and then from the Croatian territory I was
5 taken by another man to Serb-held territory. Mr. Mucic
6 actually took me to Kiseljak, or a locality known as
8 Q. Okay. We have heard you recounting the way you were
9 released to the Trial Chamber today, but on February
10 8th 1993, I believe you said that you were released with
11 30 other Serbs and that you were released on house
12 arrest, not to leave the area, and then somehow one
13 night, I think it was November 26th 1992:
14 "I managed to somehow escape to Serb territory and
15 save myself."
16 Is that not what you told the Serbian Counsel
17 Information Centre?
18 A. It is not. That is not true and it was not like that.
19 MS. McMURREY: I am going to tender this statement, hoping
20 to prove its authenticity at a later date, your Honours,
21 for impeachment purposes. That is the only questions
22 I have from this document. I have just a few more
24 You made the statement to the office of the
25 Prosecution on October 20th 1995, and in that statement,
1 when you recounting the alleged demise of Slavko Susic,
2 you never told anyone in any of these other statements
3 that you were outside at that time, did you, outside at
4 the time that you were able to see Slavko Susic. You
5 never said that in any other written statement, did you?
6 A. At that moment, I was outside, maybe some 20 metres
8 Q. I am sorry, Mr. J, I am not asking you whether you were
9 or were not outside. The question is, did you ever tell
10 any of the other reporters or in any other statement
11 that you were outside during that event? You never did,
12 did you?
13 A. I do not remember what I said, but I know how it was.
14 I consider this to be an honourable court and I want to
15 tell the truth exactly as it was.
16 Q. Mr. J, this is an honourable court and all we are asking
17 you to do is tell the truth, and all I am asking is for
18 you to at least acknowledge that you never told anybody
19 else before your testimony yesterday that you were
20 outside of tunnel number 9 when Slavko Susic was beaten,
21 did you?
22 A. I did say that. I must have told that 100 times that
23 I was outside and that I saw it, as a story I told
24 people about it.
25 Q. But not in your statements under oath, is that correct?
1 MS. McHENRY: Your Honours, I am going to object again,
2 I have done this before, but the statements given to the
3 office of the Prosecutor are not under oath. If we are
4 going to be technical about it, I will object to that
5 and object to that characterisation.
6 MS. McMURREY: I am sorry, his prior sworn statement then.
7 Let me ask you this, on February 21st 1996 when
8 the Office of the Prosecutor came to you again, they
9 asked you to review your statement from October 1995,
10 they gave you the chance to correct any misstatements
11 you had. They said, "is there anything wrong with this
12 statement, do you have anything you want to change on
13 this statement today", and you signed a sworn statement
14 that day that everything you said October 20th 1995 was
15 true and correct to the best of your memory, did you
17 A. I only said that -- the truth is what I said before this
18 honourable court because I have given an oath and I do
19 not want to lie here.
20 Q. Okay. But you never did -- you had an opportunity to
21 change it, so what you said by signing that sworn
22 statement that day was that you were correct in what you
23 said in October 1995, is that right?
24 MS. McHENRY: Your Honour, I am sorry to object again, but
25 I am going to object. I think it is a compound
1 question. In particular, I do not believe that this
2 witness has stated yet whether or not he was given his
3 prior statement and asked to review it, and so
4 without -- I just then think before asking a compound
5 question she needs to break it up and ask each part
7 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Ms. McMurrey, did I hear you to say
8 that he agreed that the statement was true to the best
9 of his memory?
10 MS. McMURREY: Yes, your Honour.
11 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Then you should accept whatever he
12 says. That might have been to the best of his memory at
13 that time.
14 MS. McMURREY: I am just asking him to acknowledge that he
15 had the opportunity to change it if he had said anything
16 incorrectly and that he reverified its veracity at a
17 later date.
18 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Ask him.
19 MS. McMURREY: On February 21st 1996, what you did by
20 signing the witness acknowledgment is you said that that
21 statement that you gave in October to the office of the
22 Prosecution was "true to the best of my knowledge and
23 recollection"; is that correct?
24 A. I do not know. I did not understand the question.
25 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: I think that qualification makes it
1 very difficult for you to proceed further. If somebody
2 was acknowledging it was to the best of his knowledge
3 and memory, what can you prove from that to discuss
4 things which he did not remember at that time?
5 MS. McMURREY: Your Honour, what I am trying to prove is
6 that he has said inconsistent things from October 1995
7 to his testimony today. If they were wrong in 1995, he
8 had an opportunity to change those statements in 1996
9 and he chose not to, so now, he comes up and says they
10 were wrong. That was the only thing that I was trying
11 to prove.
12 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: I am only holding you to what you
13 recited as a qualification for saying what he did.
14 MS. McMURREY: One more question in that vein. Mr. J, on
15 February 21st 1996, did Mr. Hortemo from the Prosecution
16 give you a copy of your October statement and ask you to
17 read it and ask you if that is exactly what you meant to
18 say then?
19 A. I do not remember that.
20 MS. McMURREY: Your Honour, I do not have a Serbo-Croatian
21 version of the statement, but I would like to introduce
22 it into evidence for the limited purpose of impeachment,
23 because he signed it. I can offer it to him for his
24 signature to verify that that was his own statement and
25 I would like it for impeachment purposes since he says
1 he does not remember it now, that he did sign it and did
2 make that statement to the office of the Prosecution.
3 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Are you reacting to that?
4 MS. McHENRY: Yes, your Honour. First of all, I am not
5 sure what statement counsel is trying to introduce. In
6 fact, I will point out that the witness -- as
7 I understand it, Defence counsel has not impeached him
8 with anything he said inconsistent. What she has tried
9 to impeach him with is the fact that he neglected to
10 mention he was outside in recounting what he saw, so
11 first of all, let me just clarify that Defence counsel
12 has not pointed out even any inconsistency. It is also
13 the case that this witness has said that yes, he did
14 state that he gave a second statement to the Office of
15 the Prosecutor in which he -- as your Honour points out,
16 that statement is "true to the best of my knowledge and
17 recollection". It does not state whether or not it has
18 been given to him in his language and even reviewed to
20 I will point out to Defence counsel in case this
21 will assist her that there is a difference in the
22 witness acknowledgment of the two statements. In
23 particular, Defence counsel will see in the first
24 witness acknowledgment the witness had indicated that he
25 did not agree to be a witness and in the second witness
1 acknowledgment he did agree to be. I think that might
2 assist her in knowing why there are two statements.
3 MS. McMURREY: The witness acknowledgment that he did sign,
4 of course, says that:
5 "The statement has been read to me in my language
6 and is true to the best of my knowledge and
8 Do we agree on that?
9 MS. McHENRY: That is right and the Prosecution would
10 certainly agree that the statement which -- again, it is
11 only a two sentence statement -- was read to him in that
12 language at that time, certainly.
13 MS. McMURREY: Your Honour, I believe that Ms. McHenry has
14 misstated this in that there is only one inconsistency
15 in his statement. I believe there have been many
16 inconsistencies in his statement to the OTP and
17 therefore I would like to offer his statement that that
18 one was true and accurate as for impeachment purposes.
19 I have Serbo-Croatian and the English version.
20 MS. McHENRY: Your Honour, if it would assist, the
21 Prosecution does not object to the introduction of both
22 statements for the purposes of evaluating the extent to
23 which this witness has or has not been impeached, so we
24 would not object to both statements being introduced.
25 MS. McMURREY: Your Honour, I am not offering both
1 statements, I am only offering the one where he says his
2 statement was true and correct, which is his second
3 statement to the OTP. That is the only one I am
4 offering for impeachment purposes.
5 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Is that the statement where you find
7 MS. McMURREY: The statements where I find inaccuracies are
8 in the record now.
9 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: With what are you impeaching him?
10 MS. McMURREY: That he had an opportunity to change any
11 statements that he had made in October 1995, he chose
12 not to, so therefore his statements of 1995 are the true
13 and accurate ones.
14 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Is that your basis for impeaching him,
15 because he did not have an opportunity to correct it?
16 MS. McMURREY: Your Honour, I will pass this whole line of
17 questioning right now and go on. I think I may have one
18 or two more questions. I do not know whether it is just
19 me, but it seems very warm in here. Is anyone else
21 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: It must be all the excitement. It is
22 all right, you can continue.
23 MS. McMURREY: Thank you. Mr. J, you were around the guards
24 at Celebici very often and they were all young and
25 inexperienced, were they not?
1 A. No, you cannot have a young man of 30 years. They were
2 25 and older there. They cannot be totally young and
3 inexperienced. I think that Zenga was one of the
4 youngest ones.
5 Q. It is your testimony today that all the guards were over
6 25 years old, except, possibly, Mr. Landzo?
7 A. It depended. Some were 30 years old, some were 20 years
8 old, but they were not children, they were not minors.
9 Q. When they were around the people in tunnel 9, they
10 seemed scared, did they not?
11 A. You mean the guards?
12 Q. Yes, the guards.
13 A. No. Why would they be scared?
14 Q. They would never go inside tunnel 9, would they? They
15 were afraid of the prisoners, were they not?
16 A. They did enter tunnel number 9. What would they be
17 afraid of, of a dead body? You could not have been
18 afraid of dead bodies, or half dead.
19 Q. You said that you had an opportunity for medical
20 treatment while you were at Celebici and when you sought
21 medical treatment, the medical treatment that you sought
22 was for a sore throat, was it not?
23 A. Yes, I had a sore throat and also my teeth also, it was
24 the whole area, the jaws, the teeth, and you can see it
25 even now. It all hurt.
1 Q. You also stated before that in your statement to the
2 OTP --
3 A. I could not even speak.
4 Q. Excuse me, Mr. J. That:
5 "I did not see anything other than the fact that
6 the prisoners were beaten. I have already indicated
7 detainees were beaten still. That happened before
8 I arrived."
9 So you never saw any of that, did you? What you
10 are saying is you are recounting something that was told
11 to you some other time, were you not?
12 A. Madam, I take exception to what you are saying. If
13 I had not seen these things, I would not have seen them
14 and I saw them daily and they shook me.
15 Q. You told Madam Residovic yesterday -- first of all today
16 you said:
17 "Sometimes I make mistakes with identifying my
18 closest neighbour."
19 You said that today into the record and yesterday
20 you told Madam Residovic:
21 "I cannot even remember the name of the man
22 sitting next to me, it was a long time ago."
23 That is the truth, your memory is less now than it
24 was then, is it not?
25 A. It is not less, no, but you try to forget things, you do
1 not want to think about it, you do not want to remind
2 yourself, because those were very difficult moments and
3 when you recall everything that you experienced, so
4 I take exception to what you say, that I am saying
5 something I did not see. It is a very delicate
6 question. It is not just that we heard things,
7 everybody saw things.
8 MS. McMURREY: Mr. J, thank you very much. I have no
9 further questions.
10 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Thank you very much. Any
12 MS. McHENRY: The Prosecution has no re-examination. If
13 there is a question and Defence counsel has used the
14 prior statements for impeachment, we would be seeking to
15 introduce them to show the extent to which the witness
16 has or has not been impeached, but other than that, the
17 Prosecution has no additional questions.
18 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: So that is the end of this witness's
19 examination. Thank you very much, Mr. J. I think that
20 is all now from you. So you are discharged.
21 (The witness withdrew)
22 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: What is your next move, Mr. Niemann?
23 MR. NIEMANN: Thank you, your Honour. Your Honours, just
24 before the next witness is called, and further to our
25 discussion at the commencement of proceedings this week
1 in terms of ensuring that there would be witnesses for
2 next week, the Office of the Prosecutor has filed with
3 the Chamber a request for a subpoena ad testificandum to
4 issue in respect of various witnesses in an effort to
5 secure their evidence next week. Your Honours, due to
6 the very short period of time available in order to have
7 this subpoena sent to Sarajevo and in order for the
8 government of Bosnia-Herzegovina to be able to respond
9 to it, I would ask the Chamber if it is possible for us
10 to have the hearing on the matter as soon as possible,
11 preferably tomorrow morning, if that would be a
12 convenient time for your Honours to hear the matter.
13 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Actually I have heard about it from the
14 legal officer but I have not seen the application.
15 MR. NIEMANN: I have a filed copy, your Honour, but it may be
16 it has not reached your Honours as yet. It was filed
17 this morning, your Honours. It is just that in order to
18 secure attendance next week it will be necessary for us
19 to be able to pass on to the government of
20 Bosnia-Herzegovina a signed order, should your Honours
21 be disposed to grant the subpoena, so there is some
22 urgency attached to it.
23 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: We will take it tomorrow morning, first
25 MR. NIEMANN: Just one other matter while I am on my feet,
1 your Honours. Some time ago, on 14th August of this
2 year, I undertook to investigate an allegation raised by
3 the Defence, by Mr. Ackerman and others, relating to an
4 allegation that a witness that had received protection
5 from the Chamber in terms of having their face
6 distorted, the image of the face distorted, gave an
7 interview on television in Belgrade. It was our
8 suspicion at the time that what was said to have been
9 the so-called interview was in fact a replaying of the
10 proceedings before this Chamber, with the image of the
11 face distorted. That was our information at the time.
12 I said we did not have any firm evidence of that at that
13 stage, although I would investigate the matter.
14 We now have a copy of the video recording of that
15 television programme in Belgrade, and it is indeed as
16 I had suspected at the time and had indicated to the
17 Chamber, namely it was merely a replaying of the
18 proceedings before this Chamber. It was not the witness
19 seeking protection and then immediately going out and
20 appearing on television, it was in fact the replaying of
21 his evidence before this court. I have that video.
22 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Thank you very much. I think actually
23 we should be able to trust your judgment.
24 MR. NIEMANN: As your Honour pleases. There are no other
1 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honour, I am wholly satisfied with
2 Mr. Niemann's representation in that regard.
3 As long as we are bringing matters up, I have a
4 very brief one that I would like to bring up. It deals
5 with the matter of how we, in our questioning, how we
6 deal with the issue of protected witnesses. It came up
7 today during the cross-examination of Ms. McMurrey with
8 regard to a particular witness who we all know about.
9 It seems to me the only time we would need to go into
10 private session is not if someone is going to mention a
11 person's name, but if someone is going to mention a
12 person's name in connection with that person being a
13 prospective or past witness, because what is seeking to
14 be protected here is their identification as a witness
15 before this Tribunal.
16 I cannot imagine that it is a problem talking
17 about their name, as long as it is not done in
18 connection with any indication that they have been or
19 will be a witness. It gets extraordinarily complicated
20 if we carry it to that extreme. I think that may be too
21 far to go. I am really asking the Tribunal for some
22 guidance about that.
23 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Perhaps in the limited sense you might
24 be right, but where a witness enjoys protection it is a
25 continuous process, and if some other witness wants to
1 mention his name, he should give him that protection at
2 all stages, whether it is by him or somebody else who
3 wants to mention his name, so he does not cease to have
4 protection merely because he is no longer before the
5 Trial Chamber. His protection continues. So if ever a
6 witness wants to mention his name, we should ensure that
7 he keeps that protection.
8 MR. ACKERMAN: I fear I have been misunderstood.
9 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: I thought I understood you. Did my
10 reaction say something different?
11 MR. ACKERMAN: I am certainly not suggesting that once a
12 person has testified there is no protection any more.
13 What I am suggesting is that perhaps it becomes
14 cumbersome to deal with matters that way when there is
15 nothing in the questioning that would indicate that they
16 have been or will be a witness before this Tribunal, it
17 is just merely a question about "did you go see a
18 certain person and did you talk to that certain
19 person?", and that sort of thing, with no indication
20 whatsoever that they are, have been or ever will be a
21 witness. That was what I was wondering about.
22 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: I suppose that depends on the person
23 framing his question. You might the question in a way
24 to avoid breaking into the protection. Even if it is
25 about a particular witness who you know is protected,
1 you do have to put your question. Thank you very much
2 for your observation. I know it brought some confusion,
3 we did not know what to do, but we thought it was all
4 right protecting him all the same, because the same
5 doctor's name keeps on recurring from time to time, so
6 that incident will continue. What is your position, the
7 Prosecution, now? You have no other witness?
8 MR. NIEMANN: I am sorry, your Honour. We have another
10 MR. TURONE: Yes, your Honour. We call now Witness R as the
11 next Prosecution witness. He is also a protected
12 witness with the same level of protection of this last
14 (Witness entered court)
15 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Will you kindly swear the witness?
16 WITNESS R (sworn)
17 MR. TURONE: May I proceed, your Honour?
18 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Yes, you may, please.
19 Examined by MR. TURONE
20 Q. Thank you. Good afternoon, sir?
21 A. Good afternoon.
22 Q. Am I correct that you have requested that your name and
23 identity not be released to the public and the media?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. So may I ask the usher please to give this piece of
1 paper to the witness and sir, you are kindly requested
2 to watch the name written on this piece of paper.
3 Without reading that aloud, just tell us whether it is
4 actually your name.
5 A. It is, that is my name.
6 Q. Thank you very much.
7 May I ask the usher to give the paper to the
8 Registry, thank you.
9 Sir, you will thus be known in this testimony as
10 Mr. R, all right? Mr. R, how old are you?
11 A. Fine.
12 Q. How old are you, Mr. R?
13 A. I am 40.
14 Q. What is your ethnic group?
15 A. I am a Serb.
16 Q. What kind of schools did you attend?
17 A. I completed the university in Sarajevo in 1982.
18 Q. Where did you live at the beginning of May 1992?
19 A. I lived in Bradina.
20 Q. What was your profession at that time?
21 A. I was working in a school, I was a teacher.
22 Q. Mr. R, was there a time when Bradina was affected by
23 armed conflict, military operations in 1992?
24 A. Certainly there was, yes.
25 Q. Can you please say how and when did that start, please?
1 A. The first attack on Bradina occurred on 12th May, but it
2 was not a really serious war operation. The next attack
3 occurred on 25th May, and it went on until 26th May,
4 when that army, or rather the Green Berets, as they were
5 called then, and the Croatian Defence Council, entered
6 the village itself and did what they did.
7 Q. What do you mean, "did what they did"?
8 A. The village which existed, according to Dubrovnik
9 documents since 1392, in 1992, it was razed to the
10 ground after being in existence for 600 years.
11 Q. Did you in any way take part in the defence of your
12 village, if any defence was there?
13 A. One might say, one could say I did not, but I do not
14 know how one could categorise that type of defence.
15 When the shelling and firing started from all sides,
16 I was in my garden, I was digging the potato plot.
17 Though the response in Celebici when I was interrogated
18 was sarcastic, they said "so you were all digging your
19 gardens at the time". Anyway, that garden was 200 or
20 300 metres from the railway station and together with
21 others I headed for that railway station and we spent
22 the night there. During the next day, the forces that
23 were attacking from the west had already entered the
24 village, and also the forces coming from the south had
25 entered the village, and where I was there was no actual
1 exchange of fire but since we saw that the army was
2 virtually behind our backs, we rallied in front of the
3 Zara cafe and that is where we were arrested, or rather
4 I was arrested, because I speak of my own experience.
5 Q. Do you have any weapon of that time when you were
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Which kind of a weapon?
9 A. It was known as Tandzara, or an M48, of an outdated
10 production. According to the Yugoslav armed forces,
11 I think it was already discarded from the Yugoslav
12 People's Army.
13 Q. Mr. R, when were you arrested, do you remember the date,
14 the day?
15 A. I do. It was 26th May, the day after the attack on
16 Bradina, in the evening. At exactly what time I do not
17 know, but it was dusk when several lorries entered
18 Bradina from the direction of Konjic, including some
19 kind of armoured personnel carriers. That was the name
20 given according to the clarification of weapons of the
21 Yugoslav People's Army, armoured vehicles.
22 Q. By whom were you arrested, by how many people and to
23 which units did they belong?
24 A. I cannot tell you the exact number of people. I know
25 that there were 18 of us in our group, that we had
1 retreated to that cafe Zara, in front of the cafe. It
2 was dusk, all the houses in Bradina were on fire around
3 us, this group surrounded us, and they formed two lines
4 of people, through which the 18 of us had to pass in the
5 direction of the lorry, and the flap was closed, the
6 flap of the lorry. So at the beginning of this
7 gauntlet, they started beating us and certain
8 individuals, like Vukasin Mrkajic, who recognised some
9 of his colleagues from the organisation he had worked
10 in, from his work place, when he called out their names,
11 he was beaten up immediately, very badly, and threatened
12 not to mention any names, and throughout that procedure,
13 the army, the troops that were arresting us, were
14 constantly threatening us and warning us not to use
15 names, and if somebody said "Kemo", the answer would be
16 "fuck Kemo, do not mention names".
17 I apologise for the language I am using, but I do
18 not know how to convey the substance in any other way.
19 Q. What happened exactly right after this arrest?
20 A. Therefore we were ordered to put our hands behind our
21 heads. That was the customary posture that the
22 gentlemen insisted on from the very first day of our
23 arrest until we were released, we had to put our hands
24 behind our heads like this and to run the gauntlet.
25 I cannot say exactly how many soldiers there were,
1 because it was dusk. In addition to having to put our
2 hands up, we also were not allowed to look left or
3 right, and the beatings started with whatever they had
4 in their hands, their rifles, their boots, their rifle
5 butts and so on. One had to climb on to this lorry, the
6 door of which was closed, the flap was closed, and this
7 was very difficult, especially for the elderly people,
8 who, trying to climb up, fell down, but they were forced
9 up and beaten again and somehow they managed to climb on
10 top, into the lorry.
11 Q. After that, where were you brought?
12 A. When we somehow managed to climb on to the lorry, two
13 guards climbed up and they held some metal bars, and
14 this group of people -- it was a small truck, a small
15 TAM truck, with a very small capacity, it was half
16 empty, because the people at the back were trying to
17 crouch in amongst those at the front to avoid the
18 blows. At the same time, the guards were saying they
19 were taking us to Grude, where a concentration camp for
20 Serbs already existed, that they were taking us to the
21 pits of Herzegovina to have a replay of what happened in
22 1941, since there was still some room in those pits, so
23 why not fill them up. They sang, "the battle is being
24 fought, the flag is hoisted for the flag and for Croatia
25 and for the homeland, I greet Ante Pavelic", they were
1 saying and singing.
2 I am just talking about the group that I was in on
3 that truck, because there were several such groups and
4 several trucks, but I am talking only about my group.
5 Then they brought us to Celebici. It was already
6 dark, but I did not know where we were.
7 Q. You mean it was already dark, you remember approximately
8 at what time did you arrive at Celebici that night?
9 A. I assume it could have been about 10.00 on 26th May,
10 around 10.00, because the actual arrest and the loading
11 into the truck was already -- it happened at dusk, it
12 was already dark while we were still in Bradina.
13 Q. You said that you were about 18 prisoners in your truck,
14 is that correct?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. And you said there were other trucks. Did they go to
17 Celebici in line?
18 A. No, our truck went directly from Bradina to Celebici,
19 but I learnt later that a truck that left before us
20 stopped at Konjic, at Musala, so all the people who were
21 arrested were beaten terribly in Musala and only then
22 reached Celebici. Also when our beating in Celebici
23 ended, then the next trucks arrived.
24 Q. All right, Mr. R. Can you tell us where did your truck
25 stop when it arrived at the camp at Celebici?
1 A. The truck stopped in front, but I did not know at the
2 time, of course, where we were, but it stopped next to a
3 wall, that is all I can say, and we were ordered to get
4 off one by one. The guards who were on the truck were
5 actually throwing us down one by one, like sacks, and on
6 the ground another two lines of soldiers had already
7 been formed as in Bradina, and one by one, the
8 prisoners, if I can call them that, or the detainees,
9 were thrown off. Then the command came from the
10 darkness, "slaughter them".
11 Q. What happened then?
12 A. My turn came, or rather when I was thrown off the truck,
13 I saw that directly in front of us at the distance of a
14 metre, perhaps, there was a high concrete wall and the
15 man in front of me was standing there with his hands
16 raised high, with his forehead against the wall and the
17 guards were beating him. I spent several minutes in
18 that position too, though it is very difficult to tell
19 how long this went on, under those conditions. I was
20 kneeling and the guard was holding me by my head, with
21 his knife under my throat. We were waiting or he was
22 waiting to finish with the other one before me.
23 Q. Go ahead in your account. What happened then?
24 A. When this man who was before me, when he had been dealt
25 with, if one may put it that way, as the gentleman
1 called it that, when the treatment of him was finished,
2 my turn came, somebody said raise your arms up high
3 against the wall -- but let me also mention, which
4 I forgot to mention, that we had to take off our
5 clothing and especially if anyone had laces on their
6 shoes, or belts, so that quite a number of people were
7 left in their underwear, their vests and pants, so half
8 naked, we were lent against the wall, our hands up high,
9 forehead against the wall, and the beating started.
10 This beating affected all parts of the body.
11 I personally got the strongest blows at the back of my
12 head, and also in the kidney area. If anyone fell from
13 the blows or fainted, the guards would raise him up
14 again and order, "get up". Somebody was issuing the
15 orders in the darkness. The order came, "up", and then
16 the beatings continued. The injuries inflicted by the
17 blows with foreheads against the wall were frequently as
18 serious as those inflicted at the back of the head,
19 because the forehead hit against the wall hard every
20 time. I fainted twice during that beating, and then the
21 guards pushed me towards something, I did not know what
22 it was, because I had never been there before in
23 Celebici, and even if I had been to the barracks of the
24 former JNA, one could not enter without special permits
1 So anyway, they pushed me towards something known
2 as "the entrance". I did not really know where I was
3 going, because if you lose consciousness once or twice
4 you virtually do not know where you are, so I did not
5 know what I should do or where I should go.
6 Then one of the guards hit me with his rifle, here
7 across the head (indicates), you can still see the
8 injury quite well, and he pushed me forward and then
9 I lost consciousness again, because I know that it
10 seemed to me as a long, protracted sinking into
11 nothingness, into darkness. I thought that it may be a
12 latrine or something, but when I came to, I saw that
13 I was lying on concrete, on a concrete floor together
14 with other beaten people who were slowly moving away
15 from the door because newcomers kept coming in; other
16 people who had also been beaten. Throughout the
17 beating --
18 Q. I am sorry, Witness R, can you say precisely, this place
19 where you were thrown into, what place was that?
20 A. Yes, it was the tunnel which according to the numbering
21 of the former JNA, we called it number 9, because all
22 the facilities had a number. This was a tunnel, I do
23 not know what they kept there during the JNA, whether it
24 was a nuclear shelter or an ammunition depot, but
25 anyway, the next day, when it dawned, we saw that it was
1 a tunnel which was about 140, 150 metres wide and about
2 25 metres long with -- sloping slightly downwards from
3 the entrance downwards.
4 Q. Mr. R, going back to the evening you arrived there, and
5 you were talking about this group beating, how long did
6 this beating last?
7 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: We might break now and come back at
9 MR. TURONE: Yes, your Honour.
10 (4.00 pm)
11 (A short break)
12 (4.30 pm)
13 MS. McHENRY: Your Honours, while the next witness is being
14 brought in, may I just do an administrative matter that
15 I neglected to do at the end of the last witness's
16 testimony? At the end, I asked that his prior
17 statements which had been used by the Defence be
18 introduced in evidence, but I did not realise that the
19 Registrar did not have copies of them, so she does not
20 have copies, so at least for purposes of
21 identification. I would like to give them to the
22 Registrar for your Honours' decision as to whether or
23 not you wish to admit them.
24 MS. McMURREY: Your Honour, I object to the admission of
25 the two statements that we did not offer into evidence
1 for impeachment purposes. If they are not offered for
2 impeachment purposes, I believe the Prosecutor is only
3 offering them to bolster the testimony of her witness,
4 which she should have done in her examination.
5 JUDGE JAN: You did cross-examine the witness with reference
6 to those statements.
7 MS. McMURREY: The one that I cross-examined most from is
8 the one that is in evidence already, the Serbian Counsel
9 Information Centre document, not the OTP statements.
10 JUDGE JAN: But you did ask a number of questions about the
11 previous statement, upon the verification which was made
12 by Mr. Hortemo with regard to the statement recorded
13 earlier. You also asked him whether he had in earlier
14 statements spoken about the participation of Zenga. So
15 many other things you asked him.
16 MS. McMURREY: I am not offering it myself.
17 JUDGE JAN: You have asked him questions in reference to
18 those statements.
19 MS. McMURREY: I have but in the past, many people have
20 cross-examined from past statements and not offered
22 JUDGE JAN: They should be before us.
23 MS. McMURREY: I am not offering it, and it has been a
24 practice of the Defence attorneys up until now not to
25 offer them just to question from them, unless we choose
1 to offer them, and I am asking not to have them offered,
2 but if the Prosecutor asks and you grant it, I do not
3 have any --
4 JUDGE JAN: Let them be on the record. Let us have a look
5 at it. They are not used for the purpose of
6 corroboration. They are not substantive evidence in the
7 case. When we sit down to write the judgment and there
8 is a question, we want to find out what is there. If it
9 is not in the record, what do we do?
10 MS. McMURREY: Your Honour, I do understand that. I do not
11 have any problem with that. Unfortunately, these
12 statements contain so many statements about all the
13 other defendants that there has been apprehension --
14 JUDGE JAN: They are not substantive evidence against
15 anyone, they are only for the purpose of impeachment.
16 They are not for the purpose of corroboration even.
17 MS. McMURREY: I understand. Of course it is not my wish
18 to offer them, but if it is necessary for the court to
19 understand the impeachment purposes, then of course it
20 should be --
21 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Let us complete the transcript, because
22 there will be a gap.
23 JUDGE JAN: You are not relying on this statement as
24 substantive evidence?
25 MS. McHENRY: No, we are not, you are exactly correct, your
2 JUDGE JAN: Thank you.
3 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Can we have the witness brought in?
4 (Witness entered court)
5 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Please remind the witness he is still
6 on his oath.
7 THE REGISTRAR: Sir, I am reminding you you are still
8 testifying under oath.
9 A. Yes. Even without that, yes.
10 MR. TURONE: May I proceed, your Honour?
11 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Yes, you may, please.
12 MR. TURONE: Thank you. So, Mr. R, we were talking about the
13 group beating of the very first evening and night in
14 Celebici. How long did this group beating last?
15 A. I apologise, I am getting a French interpretation in my
17 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: The channels are wrong.
18 MR. TURONE: All right then. We were talking about this
19 group beating of the very first night in Celebici when
20 just you arrived there. How long did this group beating
21 last in all?
22 A. The beating went on from 10.00 in the evening until
23 about next dawn, but that is my subjective experience.
24 But it went on until the morning, until 4.00 or 5.00 in
25 the morning. Not only this group but the trucks kept
1 coming, so that night, in the tunnel, and I mentioned
2 the measurements of this tunnel, I think that a total of
3 87 persons were brought in there, as far as we could
4 count that night. I just need to add that these trucks
5 kept running all throughout these beatings and their
6 exhaust pipes were pointing towards --
7 JUDGE JAN: Just a minute. For "subjective experience",
8 I would rather use the words "personal experience". He
9 said "it was my subjective experience". I would prefer
10 "personal experience", if that is what he means.
11 MR. TURONE: I think he is referring to his personal
12 experience, your Honour.
13 A. I apologise, the personal experience and the subjective
14 experience is the same term in my language, so I do not
15 know if we need a closer explanation of this. For me,
16 it is the experience that I carry with me.
17 JUDGE JAN: "Personal" is a little more simple word than
19 MR. TURONE: How long were you personally beaten, Mr. R?
20 A. I think that it went on for 30 to 35 minutes.
21 Q. Can you say with what were you beaten?
22 A. We were beaten with any objects that were at hand and at
23 foot, to use that expression, because they used their
24 boots also, and we had our hands -- arms raised against
25 a wall and we were beaten to our genitals, to the back
1 of our heads, and then they also used barrels and rifle
2 butts, both sides, and I mentioned the scar on my head,
3 that came from a rifle barrel.
4 I also know that people were beaten with pickaxes,
5 with shovels, any other objects that were around in the
6 camp, because it was also a warehouse of the former JNA,
7 so they used chains, cables, the intertwined cables.
8 Q. Witness R, did the people hitting you say anything
9 during the beating?
10 A. Again, I repeat, it was the same as in Bradina, except
11 apart from these orders to cut our throats and the order
12 to stand the victims up once they had fainted, I think
13 that apart from that, there was not much talk.
14 Q. Can you summarise the injuries you suffered from this
16 A. I do not know about this experience that I carry with
17 me, whether it is typical, but as I had rib fractures on
18 the right side that I still feel the consequences of
19 that, because I received no therapy and got no
20 medication at that time, at any time of my stay in the
21 camp, and then there was the injuries at the back of my
22 head and spinal injuries, I have to go to a chiropractor
23 about every six months, so go to a practitioner that
24 manipulates my vertebrae mechanically. I also had my
25 nose broken and I had kidney injuries because I urinated
2 I can also mention, I do not know whether this is
3 interesting or not, I do not know, the body distributes
4 pain. As I said, I had rib fractures on the right-hand
5 side, but the first several days I only felt the pain in
6 the back of my head, because that is where I received
7 the most severe beating and when that pain let up, only
8 then could I feel that I could breathe heavily, I had
9 difficulties breathing and that is when I realised I had
10 rib fractures, so there is this kind of economy of pain
11 within a body, and so what has been the most injured is
12 what you feel at first and the most, so it is a strange
14 Q. Mr. R, going now to talk about tunnel 9, where you were
15 put right after this, could you say how long did you
16 stay in tunnel 9?
17 A. I stayed about one week in tunnel number 9, seven days.
18 That was the period during which these persons in
19 uniform were combing the terrain, so to speak, and were
20 capturing the population of Bradina which had escaped
21 into the mountains, Bjelasnica, so it lasted until these
22 people were all captured and brought to Celebici and
23 I guess the tunnel had been prepared for them, so it all
24 took about seven days.
25 Q. Were you the first prisoners arriving into that tunnel,
1 or did you find other people there?
2 A. Yes. We were the first prisoners who were brought in
3 there that first night, especially that truck in which
4 we were brought in, so that was the first truck that
5 arrived there and I was among that first group that was
6 thrown in there.
7 Q. How many prisoners were there in that very first night
8 in tunnel 9?
9 A. First night, as far as we could count, it was 77 persons
11 Q. You were already starting a description of tunnel 9.
12 Could you please give us a complete description of the
13 physical characteristics of tunnel 9?
14 A. At first I said that I did not know what the purpose of
15 the tunnel was in the system of the former JNA, but
16 I know to what purposes it served during our stay in
17 Celebici; in other words, the tunnel was about 140 to
18 150 metres wide and the length was about 20 to 25
19 metres, with a slow slant, a slow decline downward. At
20 the end of the tunnel was a part maybe of 1 or 2 metres
21 that was flat, that was not on a decline. On the
22 ceiling, so to speak, were electric cables with neon
23 lights, but they were either not functioning or the
24 guards did not allow the light to be turned on, so
25 during my stay, they were never on.
1 At the entrance of the tunnel was a metal door,
2 with a very small opening right above the door, and I do
3 not know what it served, but it had -- for us it was
4 where the fresh air came through so that we would not
5 suffocate. During our stay, that door was always
6 closed, and from the outside they put a wooden plank, so
7 to speak, which was stuck against the staircase so that
8 it would be closed, because the door itself had been
9 broken, I guess, after the army had left.
10 Q. How were the conditions of life in tunnel 9, drinking
11 water, food, toilet and hygienic facilities, sleeping
12 conditions et cetera?
13 A. The sleeping conditions, it was 77 people in such a
14 small space. First of all, what were the sleeping
15 conditions there? There were none. There were many who
16 had much more serious injuries than I did, they had
17 broken pelvises, spinal injuries, injured lungs, so they
18 moaned, they were trying to find positions that would
19 bring them less pain, but there was no space.
20 As far as the food was concerned, the first couple
21 of days we received no food. As far as water is
22 concerned, the first day, several people went out to
23 receive water, but it was first ordered that they should
24 wash out blood that was alongside a wall in front of the
25 tunnel, where we had been beaten. At first it was said
1 that this water was industrial water, it was not potable
2 water and then it was allowed that water be brought from
3 the command building. This was the first day.
4 However, since the prisoners had much more need
5 for water than what was brought, then they started
6 drinking this water and this continued throughout our
7 stay in the camp, so that was industrial water, which
8 was brought down from a little dam down the canal, which
9 was used by the local population for bathing and for
10 washing, and we often were finding either parts of
11 faeces and also some tampons occasionally. I later had
12 problems with my liver.
13 I think that this was intended to be used as water
14 for firefighting. As far as sanitary conditions are
15 concerned, we were not allowed to go out and people then
16 relieved themselves at the bottom of this tunnel, and as
17 time went on, this excrement accumulated, and also that
18 liquid started rising, because we were not allowed to go
19 out to relieve ourselves.
20 Q. Mr. R, did anybody take your valuables after your
21 arrest? When did that happen, if it happened?
22 A. Yes. On the second night after we had been brought to
23 the camp, guards came with flashlights and they shined
24 it on us, because there was never light, and they
25 brought in a helmet and they asked whether we knew what
1 the helmet was. They handed this helmet to the first
2 person at the door and they said, "you have to fill it
3 up with gold or whatever else you have", so it included
4 watches, rings, bracelets, chains, crosses, whatever
5 people had on them. They also demanded that money be
6 put in there, even though that old Yugoslav money, that
7 currency was no longer used in Bosnia. This was on the
8 second night.
9 On the third night, a man in uniform came,
10 escorted by guards, and then again with a flashlight,
11 and he shone it at us and he said, "do you know who
12 I am?", and it was an unfamiliar face. Then he shone
13 this flashlight on it, "I am investigator Vekic, Alija
14 Izetbegovic sent me, Bosnia was recognised by everybody
15 and you, a handful of Karadzic's Chetniks, will stay
16 there forever and nobody will ask about you". That was
17 the third night.
18 Q. Going back to the valuables, what did you personally put
19 into the helmet, if anything?
20 A. I put my wedding ring, which I no longer have, and a
21 watch that I also had. My watch and my wedding ring.
22 Q. Did you ever get your property back?
23 A. No, never.
24 Q. During your stay in tunnel 9, did you ever hear noises
25 or screamings or anything like that coming from outside?
1 A. Yes, the very next day our group of people were arrested
2 in the evening of 26th May, but the next day, let us
3 call it the army, continued bringing in the remaining
4 population of Bradina. The beating must have taken
5 place near to the place where we were beaten, against
6 that wall or on the road, on the path right in front of
7 the tunnel. I believe that it went on for eight hours
8 at least, because we heard the moans, the cries that
9 went on all day, and we also heard the guards or whoever
10 they were outside, because we could only hear, we could
11 not see anything, because we were locked up. They were
12 repeating the verses from the Koran, and they were
13 forcing people that had been brought in to repeat after
14 them. If they made any mistake, they were beaten even
15 harder. For a Yugoslav, this Arabic -- these Arabic
16 verses were alien and everyone was making mistakes, so
17 that the beating went on for at least eight hours.
18 Q. During this time, this screaming et cetera, did you
19 recognise any particular voice?
20 A. Yes, I could recognise the voice of Miroslav Vujicic,
21 because I had known him for at least ten years before
22 the outbreak of war, and I heard him say that he would
23 not allow them to kill him like a dog on the road, and
24 immediately after that, we heard a burst of fire and we
25 heard the words, "he got away, God damn him".
1 Q. Did you recognise also this second voice?
2 A. At the time, no, because I had not known the man from
3 before, but as time went by, and the beatings continued,
4 then I knew that it was actually Hazim Delic, but at the
5 time I did not know because I did not know the man from
6 before the war. Also, if necessary, let me say, I am
7 going back now, when we were transferred to number 6,
8 I was told by Miroslav Vujicic's brother, Radoslav, that
9 it was Delic who had fired at Miroslav.
10 Q. Did you happen to hear again the voice of Miroslav
11 Vujicic after the shot?
12 A. No.
13 Q. All right. You said that you remained in tunnel 9 for
14 about one week. Then where were you brought after that?
15 A. After that, we were transferred, not all of us, but
16 I was transferred to a garage of the former JNA, or a
17 building, I do not know how I should call it, which had
18 the mark of number 6 on it, so that in our vernacular of
19 the prisoners, the tunnel was number 9 and this garage
20 was known as number 6.
21 Also, the improvised, I do not know how to call
22 it, where people were put after beatings, the infirmary,
23 that was number 22. All those numbers were taken over
24 from the numbers that existed from before, when this was
25 held by the JNA.
1 Q. Okay, Mr. R. Now going back to the day you were brought
2 to hangar 6. Who called you out of tunnel 9 in order to
3 bring you to hangar 6?
4 A. The guards came, the door was opened and we were all
5 ordered to form a line, one behind the other, and that
6 we should file out one by one, facing -- looking into
7 the back of the head of the one in front of us.
8 Q. Do you know the name of anybody among these guards who
9 came to take you?
10 A. Yes, but let me just finish the actual procedure of us
11 coming out of the tunnel. We came out as far as the
12 wall, one behind the other, and then we were ordered to
13 make an about turn by 90 degrees to the right, so
14 standing like that, we faced some 30-odd people who had
15 been captured in the woods of Bjelasnica and Igman,
16 mostly, who had tried to escape the massacre that
17 occurred in Bradina. The man who was giving the command
18 to the guards was Mr. Pavo Mucic.
19 Q. Who was the person who invited you to come out of the
21 A. I assume it was Pavo Mucic, because he gave orders to
22 the guards and to us.
23 Q. What did Mr. Mucic say exactly?
24 A. When we had formed that line and turned around to face
25 this other group of people, we saw that they had all
1 been terribly beaten up. Mucic was in uniform with a
2 hat, and he pointed to Rajko Djordjic, who had also been
3 arrested somewhere on Mount Bjelasnica or somewhere,
4 I do not know, and he said, "look at your Vojvoda, your
5 Duke, look what he looks like. You wanted a greater
6 Serbia and now you will wait until greater Serbia comes
7 to fetch you". The guards again ordered us to turn
8 around one behind the other and the people captured on
9 Mount Bjelasnica were shoved into the tunnel and we were
10 transferred to what was known then as number 6.
11 Q. Mr. R, was this the first time you saw Mr. Mucic?
12 A. Yes, that was the first time. I personally had not
13 known Pavo Mucic from before the war, I did not know who
14 it was even then, but as soon as we got into number 6,
15 I asked the people, "who was the one who was in
16 command?" And they said it was Pavo Mucic. I did not
17 know who Pavo Mucic was before the war. I knew that he
18 existed, that he liked to fish, that he caught fish such
19 as no other person did and that was all I knew about
21 Q. You said Mr. Mucic was there, together with other
22 guards. Can you say approximately how many guards were
23 there together with him?
24 A. I think there were about 15 men in all.
25 Q. Were they also in uniform?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. How did you reach hangar 6? Did you go walking in
3 line? How did you go there?
4 A. We walked in line and the strict order was that we must
5 not look around, that we had to look in front, along the
6 path from the tunnel to number 6, we had to look at the
7 ground, we were surrounding by guards with guns pointed
8 at us.
9 Q. Did Mr. Mucic also walk together with you?
10 A. Yes, he went alongside, at a distance of two or three
11 steps. He was somewhere in the middle of the line of
12 men, and he accompanied us. In fact, I think it was on
13 our right-hand side.
14 Q. Did Mr. Mucic say anything else at this time, or not?
15 A. I do not recall that he said anything else on that
16 occasion, except what I had said in front of the tunnel,
17 that we should look at the Duke and we should wait some
18 time for greater Serbia to come and fetch us.
19 Q. What happened when you reached hangar 6?
20 A. When we reached hangar 6 we were thrown in and there was
21 already a group of some, I assume, 60 or so men, that
22 was my first impression, my rough estimate. They were
23 sitting on the concrete, leaning against the walls of
24 the hangar, and Hazim Delic came and assigned each one
25 of us to a particular place, saying that only dead could
1 we leave the position he had assigned to us.
2 Q. Was Mr. Mucic still there?
3 A. Yes, he was standing by the door with an automatic
5 Q. Was this the first time you saw Mr. Delic?
6 A. Yes, that was the first time. I did not know Mr. Delic
7 either from before Celebici, because I did not move
8 around much in cafes and restaurants, I mixed with
9 people who were interested in science, in books, I went
10 to libraries, so that I did not know any of those men
11 that are sitting here from before the war.
12 Q. But how do you know that he was Delic when you saw him
13 in hangar 6?
14 A. Because I asked at the same moment, "who is this man?",
15 and the people who were already sitting there said it
16 was Hazim Delic, "he is number two, he is God and your
17 life depends on him".
18 Q. Sir, how long did you stay in hangar 6?
19 A. I stayed there until 31st August 1992.
20 Q. You said that when you arrived there, there were already
21 about 60 prisoners inside hangar 6. Did the number of
22 prisoners in hangar 6 vary during your stay there?
23 A. Yes, the variation in the number of prisoners occurred
24 almost daily, because some were transferred to the
25 sports hall, the camp in Konjic; some were taken back to
1 number 9 according to categories that they formed,
2 treating some as heavier and others as lighter
3 detainees; then there were other people also that were
4 brought in from the town of Konjic or from the
5 surrounding villages who had not been incarcerated
6 before. Such was the case with a large group of people
7 who were brought in from Brdjani, who had not been
8 detained before, so the number of prisoners fluctuated.
9 At first, the building was filled to capacity and then
10 the number varied.
11 Q. Can you now describe the physical characteristics of
12 building number 6?
13 A. I assume that number 6 was used by the former Yugoslav
14 People's Army as some sort of a garage, so the walls,
15 they are not really walls, were not concrete, were some
16 kind of sheet steel, green, used by the army. It was
17 also covered by sheet steel and the front, I do not know
18 exactly how many doors there were, because only one door
19 was opened, and very small openings for ventilation or
20 for light to enter the facility. I think that near the
21 door, built into the floor there was a kind of canal
22 with railings on top.
23 Q. Did every prisoner have a given position inside the
25 A. Yes, I have already said that Delic ordered each one of
1 us to sit in a given position. He threatened, if anyone
2 were to leave that position, he would suffer beatings.
3 Actually, his words were "only dead can you move from
4 that position", and quite a large number of people, when
5 the guards were not there, did move around, and if Delic
6 found out, they really did get some heavy beating.
7 Q. So may I ask that the witness be provided with
8 Prosecution Exhibit number 1, page 7, which is the map
9 of hangar 6, or with a photocopy of it, if we have a
10 photocopy of it. Otherwise we might prepare that for
11 tomorrow morning, so that it might be placed in the ELMO
12 and shown to the witness, please.
13 THE REGISTRAR: I do not have a photocopy, I only have the
14 original document.
15 MR. TURONE: We can put the original document on the ELMO,
16 please, so we will provide for tomorrow morning a
17 photocopy of it. We have a photocopy, thank you.
18 May I ask the usher to provide the witness with
19 this photocopy, please, on the ELMO?
20 A. May I add, as far as the position itself is concerned,
21 that later on, as time went by, Delic would say to us,
22 "sit down basluci", the word meaning Muslim tombstones,
23 wishing to imply that we would stay there forever.
24 Q. Thank you, sir. Could you please look at the piece of
25 paper on your right hand? Do you recognise this map?
1 A. Yes, it is a sketch or a layout, or a drawing.
2 Q. Could you indicate on the piece of paper the door of the
4 A. Yes, certainly. The door was here, as indicated.
5 Q. Using this map, can you please show to the court how the
6 prisoners were distributed inside hangar 6; how were
7 their positions organised inside the hangar, please?
8 A. When we were thrown in, there was only one row of
9 prisoners who were sitting against the wall, if I can
10 call it that, of this building, and the position of
11 those prisoners was something like this, along --
12 roughly this far (indicates). They were like this. So
13 there was only one row, but when we were thrown in we
14 could not fit into one row, so two more rows were
15 formed. There was one row like this and a second row
16 like this and here at the end there was one row and
17 another two rows along this side, one right against the
18 wall and another one inside (indicates). The length of
19 those rows varied, depending on the number of prisoners
20 who were held in this garage or number 6.
21 Q. All right. Can you then indicate on this map your
22 personal position inside hangar 6?
23 A. Yes, my position was here, the inside row. There was a
24 row behind us against the wall, the second row was
25 inside and I was here (indicates).
1 Q. Could you mark with a pen, if you have a pen there?
2 A. Yes, certainly.
3 Q. Mark with an X your position inside the hangar. Thank
4 you very much. So now we might use later on this sketch
5 again for other possible marks, so we will keep it at
7 So Witness R, how were now the conditions of life
8 inside hangar 6, the temperature, the drinking water,
9 food, toilet facilities, sleeping facilities et cetera?
10 A. Let me start with the water. I already mentioned that
11 the water that we had in tunnel number 9 was the same
12 sort of water that we had here, it is not drinking
13 water, it was brought there to be used to extinguish
14 fires, industrial water with all kinds of traces of dirt
15 inside. We were not allowed to bring in drinking water
16 from the command building except for the first day, so
17 that the water we used for drinking was industrial water
18 when it was available. At first, people would pour that
19 water into plastic coca-cola bottles, and we were
20 allowed to keep those bottles overnight, but in time
21 this was prohibited, we were not allowed to keep any
22 water inside number 6, and when the beatings and
23 reprisals occurred after the second attack on Bradina,
24 and those measures were intensified; under threat of
25 heavy beatings and even death, not a drop of water could
1 be brought in without the knowledge and permission of
2 deputy commander Hazim Delic.
3 After 12th July, when Bradina was burned down
4 totally for a second time, every 15 or 20 minutes he
5 would come in throughout the day to check in case any
6 one of the guards may have allowed a drop of water to be
7 carried in.
8 Q. Excuse me, when you say "he would come in", who do you
10 A. I am thinking of Hazim Delic, I am thinking of him
11 personally when I say "he". Also, after the second
12 attack on Bradina, we were not allowed to get water for
13 three days. I still remember those expressions on
14 people's faces and their eyes when for the first time
15 they were allowed to bring in water in those plastic
16 bottles, when people simply cannot get up and drink,
17 even though they knew they would go thirsty. So then
18 one litre of water could be allowed per prisoner during
19 the day.
20 At the same time as it was very hot in July and
21 August, and as we were not allowed to open the garage,
22 the hangar, probably by orders of Hazim Delic, the
23 temperature inside would climb to unbearable heights.
24 We did not have any thermometer to measure the
25 temperature, but perspiration would begin early in the
1 morning, already by 9.00, especially as we had no
2 water. The clothing that was smelly anyway would be wet
3 until some time at night, until midnight or after
4 midnight, 1.00, and only during the night, between 1.00
5 or 6.00 or 7.00 am, it depended on when the guards would
6 appear, could we get some sleep.
7 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Mr. Turone, I think we should like to
8 stop here and continue tomorrow morning.
9 MR. TURONE: Yes, your Honour.
10 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: 10.00. Thank you very much.
11 A. Thank you.
12 (5.30 pm)
13 (Court adjourned until 10.00 am the following day)