1 Wednesday, 15th October 1997
2 (10.00 am)
3 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Good morning, ladies and gentlemen.
4 Can we have the appearances now?
5 MR. NIEMANN: If your Honour pleases, my name is Niemann and
6 I appear with my colleagues Ms. McHenry, Mr. Turone and
7 Mr. Khan for the Prosecution.
8 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Is your application on notice to the
10 MR. NIEMANN: Yes, I wish to make an application this
11 morning, your Honour, for a subpoena to be issued.
12 I understand it has been served, your Honour.
13 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Can we have appearances for the
14 Defence, please?
15 MS. RESIDOVIC: Good morning, your Honours, I am Edina
16 Residovic, Defence counsel for Mr. Zejnil Delalic and
17 Mr. Zejnil Delalic is co-defended by my colleague Eugene
18 O'Sullivan, professor from Canada.
19 MR. OLUJIC: Good morning, your Honours, I am Zeljko Olujic,
20 Defence counsel for Mr. Zdravko Mucic. I am an attorney
21 from Zagreb, Croatia. Together with me, Mr. Mucic is
22 co-defended by Mr. Michael Greaves, attorney from the
23 United Kingdom and Northern Ireland.
24 MR. KARABDIC: Good morning, your Honours, I am Salih
25 Karabdic, attorney from Sarajevo, Defence counsel for
1 Mr. Hazim Delic, and I am assisted by my co-counsel,
2 Mr. Thomas Moran from Houston Texas.
3 MR. ACKERMAN: Good morning, your Honours. Mr. Esad Landzo is
4 represented here this morning by Cynthia McMurrey and by
5 me; my name is John Ackerman.
6 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Yes, Mr. Niemann.
7 MR. NIEMANN: If your Honours please. Your Honours,
8 yesterday there was filed with the Registry by the
9 Office of the Prosecutor a request by the Prosecutor for
10 the issuance of a subpoena ad testificandum and an order
11 to the government of Bosnia-Herzegovina in relation to
12 the compliance with those subpoenas.
13 Your Honours, I have prepared submissions to
14 assist you in relation to the law of this matter, having
15 regard to the history of subpoenas in this jurisdiction,
16 and I will go through these submissions if that is of
17 assistance to your Honours in relation to the matter.
18 Firstly, your Honour, the reason why these
19 subpoenas are now sought is because of a failure and
20 breakdown in the liaison efforts by the Office of the
21 Prosecutor in order to secure the attendance of the
22 persons mentioned in the subpoena. These things,
23 your Honours, do change, so it may be that co-operation
24 may be forthcoming now that the step has been taken for
25 us to seek from your Honours a subpoena to issue.
1 Your Honours, I have outlined yesterday and the --
2 I should say the day before, the considerable importance
3 that the Prosecution attaches to the evidence that these
4 witnesses can provide to the Tribunal in order to assist
5 your Honours in the determination of the guilt or
6 innocence of the accused in this case.
7 The application before your Honours is in two
8 parts, the first part being a subpoena ad testificandum
9 against various individuals therein mentioned and an
10 order against the government of Bosnia-Herzegovina.
11 Just dealing briefly, your Honours, with the
12 question of your Honours' powers concerning a subpoena
13 against an individual, and the basis upon which it is
14 our submission your Honours are permitted to issue such
15 a subpoena, it is firstly necessary for your Honours to
16 look briefly at Article 6 of the Statute of the
17 Tribunal, which gives the jurisdiction -- which gives
18 the Tribunal jurisdiction over natural persons, so that
19 is the first step, in our submission, which goes towards
20 the authority vested in this Trial Chamber to make the
21 order sought.
22 The second and very important article,
23 your Honours, in the foundation of this authority, is
24 Article 8. Article 8 in the Statute of the Tribunal is
25 very broad and very encompassing. It provides that the
1 Tribunal shall have territorial jurisdiction which:
2 "... shall extend to the territory of the Former
3 Socialist Federal Republic of Yugoslavia, including its
4 land surface, airspace and territorial waters. The
5 temporal jurisdiction of the International Tribunal
6 shall extend to a period beginning on 1 January 1991."
7 Your Honours, that is a very broad conferral of
8 jurisdiction on the Tribunal, and in many ways it
9 equates the authority on the territory on the former
10 Yugoslavia to that of a national court in that
11 jurisdiction, in that it has jurisdiction on the land
12 surface in relation to things upon the land surface --
13 in our submission, including individuals.
14 This equation to a national court is in our
15 submission further reinforced by Article 9, which
16 provides that the Tribunal and national courts have
17 concurrent jurisdiction to prosecute, and in particular,
18 Article 9(2), which says:
19 "The International Tribunal shall have primacy
20 over national courts", in relation to matters which fall
21 within the jurisdiction of this Tribunal.
22 So, your Honours, we have those two very
23 significant provisions in the Statute in relation to the
24 powers of the Tribunal to issue a subpoena, and to issue
25 a subpoena particularly to someone on the territory of
1 the former Yugoslavia, and I should say, your Honours,
2 that all these persons that are sought to be brought to
3 the Tribunal by way of subpoena are on the territory of
4 the former Yugoslavia.
5 Your Honours, in addition to the Statute there is
6 in the Rules Rule 54, which provides that the Trial
7 Chamber may issue such orders, summonses, subpoenas,
8 warrants and transfer orders as may be necessary. So
9 here, your Honour, there is contained in the rule an
10 express mention of the word "subpoena".
11 In terms, your Honour, of the Tribunal exercising
12 powers over individuals, which is really in effect what
13 a subpoena is, there are other rules which are -- which
14 purport to exercise control over individuals, and
15 firstly Rule 39, in particular Rule 39(i), gives the
16 power to the Prosecutor to summons and question
17 suspects, victims and witnesses and then, in
18 paragraph (iv), empowers the judges to make orders as
19 may be necessary arising under that provision.
20 Further, your Honours, in Rule 77(C), there is an
21 express reference to any person, it says -- this is the
22 rule that deals with contempt, your Honours may recall,
23 and the contempt provision deals mostly with witnesses
24 and so forth that appear before the Tribunal, but
25 paragraph (C) is much broader than just witnesses and
1 purports to deal with:
2 "Any person who attempts to interfere with or
3 intimidate a witness."
4 In our submission, this is a further illustration
5 of the width of the rules in terms of dealing with
7 Rule 90bis, which relates to the transfer of
8 detained persons, is another example of a rule which
9 permits an individual to be dealt with by way of direct
10 order of the Tribunal, and finally your Honours, in
11 relation to the Tribunal exercising powers over
12 individuals, there is Rule 98, and Rule 98 deals with
13 the power of the Chamber to order production of
14 additional evidence, and the second sentence of Rule 98
15 expressly states that it may itself summons witnesses
16 and order their attendance. In our submission, that is
17 a clear indication, particularly the reference to order
18 their attendance, of this Tribunal having the power by
19 the Rules and by the Statute to exercise control over
21 As your Honours are no doubt aware, this matter
22 has been examined by the Trial Chamber II in the case of
23 Blaskic, where a request for a subpoena has been made,
24 and -- I correct myself here, your Honour, it has been
25 considered in the Blaskic case, as opposed to in the
1 Blaskic Chamber. In that decision the question of the
2 Tribunal's power to issue subpoenas was considered, and
3 it was decided in that case that the absence of any
4 express power does not negate the existence of an
5 implied power. But I would submit, your Honour, that
6 there is an express power; the express power appears in
7 Rule 54, and that express power is reinforced by other
8 rules, and in particular by the Statute, which invests
9 personal and territorial jurisdiction in the former
10 Yugoslavia in this Tribunal.
11 So it was concluded in that decision that the
12 power did exist. So, your Honours, in our submission
13 the authority to issue such a subpoena in circumstances
14 that I have outlined here, that is in this case where
15 you are dealing with individuals located on the
16 territory of the former Yugoslavia, it is our submission
17 that, based with the decision in the Blaskic case
18 relating to subpoenas, there is no question of
19 your Honours' authority to issue this subpoena.
20 Turning, your Honours, to the second order which
21 is sought, which is the order against the BiH, this is a
22 much more straightforward provision, in our submission.
23 It arises directly from Article 29 of the Statute, and
24 in particular, Article 29(2)(b). It provides that:
25 "States shall comply without undue delay with any
1 request for assistance or", in this case, "an order
2 issued by a Trial Chamber, including, but not limited
4 Then (b):
5 "The taking of testimony and the production of
7 In our submission, your Honour, that clearly sets
8 forth the power that this Chamber has to send an order
9 accompanying this subpoena to the government of
11 Again, your Honours, this matter has been examined
12 in the decision on a subpoena in the Blaskic case, and
13 based on Article 29(2)(b), the judge in that case
14 determined that power to issue an order accompanying a
15 subpoena is clearly provided for.
16 Your Honours, there are, in various national
17 jurisdictions that deal with implementing of orders of
18 this Tribunal that have been enacted by the various
19 states, examples of where those states have, by virtue
20 of their legislation and co-operation, provided
21 specifically for persons to be made available to come
22 forward and give evidence and to produce articles before
23 the Tribunal in the course of any proceedings, subject
24 to an order of the International Tribunal, and in
25 particular the various versions of this, and I will not
1 trouble to go through them all in detail, but the
2 various versions of this can be seen in German
3 legislation, Spanish law and New Zealand legislation and
4 also under the provisions of the United Kingdom.
5 So there are, your Honours, examples of that in
6 the national implementing legislation that where orders
7 in the nature of an order issued under 29(2)(b) will be
8 complied with in order to secure the attendance or
9 produce the evidence of a witness.
10 Your Honours, finally, we have the position of the
11 government of Bosnia-Herzegovina itself. I have said
12 that our efforts to secure the attendance of these
13 persons before the Chamber have been unsuccessful, and
14 that our negotiations in this respect have broken down
15 in the achievement of this. I should say, and hasten to
16 say, that that is not as a consequence of any lack of
17 will by the government of Bosnia-Herzegovina as such.
18 It does relate to the individuals themselves. One could
19 argue, I suppose, that people could always go further in
20 providing co-operation, but the government of
21 Bosnia-Herzegovina has been co-operative. It is a
22 difficult matter, because of the seniority of some of
23 the people that we are seeking to call, but I should say
24 that they have previously indicated their willingness to
25 co-operate with the Tribunal in terms of a subpoena, the
1 subpoena in the Blaskic case.
2 Their officials have told us in this indication
3 that they will comply with an order to ensure that these
4 persons are brought to the Tribunal. I say that, and
5 I say that they may be unsuccessful, just as in any
6 national jurisdiction one may endeavour to do something,
7 but not succeed. There is always the possibility they
8 will not succeed, but they have indicated that they will
9 co-operate and will comply with the order, should
10 your Honours be disposed to issue one. So,
11 your Honours, in conclusion, it is my submission that
12 there is ample power in your Honours to issue this
13 subpoena. The subpoena is essential in order to secure
14 the attendance of these persons, and their evidence is
15 very important for the Prosecution case, and, in my
16 submission, the co-operation promised by the government
17 of Bosnia-Herzegovina is a further factor which we would
18 use as a basis to urge your Honours to issue the
19 subpoenas in this case. The subpoenas are necessary
20 now, unfortunately, and I regret that we have had to
21 bring it on with such urgency, but unfortunately we were
22 optimistic that we would be able to achieve
23 co-operation, but we were brought to this point when it
24 became clear that we could not secure the attendance of
25 these persons by any other means.
1 So our submission, your Honours, is that
2 your Honours do have the power and it is an appropriate
3 matter and we seek your Honours' order so that subpoenas
4 may be issued in relation to these named individuals.
5 As your Honours please.
6 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Thank you very much, Mr. Niemann. I am
7 a little worried. In view of the clear words of
8 Rule 54, why did you prefer to come to the Trial
9 Chamber? Why could you not have gone to a judge?
10 MR. NIEMANN: Your Honours, it occurred to us that it may be
11 better not to deal with this matter ex parte. I think,
12 your Honours, that Rule 54 clearly gives your Honours
13 the authority to do it, because it expressly mentions --
14 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: I agree, it is in the alternative.
15 MR. NIEMANN: The other reason for it, your Honours, is that
16 we are seeking an order under Rule 29 of the articles,
17 and under Article 29, I will just go to it if I may,
18 Article 29 expressly provides that under Article 29(2)
20 "States shall comply without undue delay with any
21 request for assistance or an order issued by a Trial
23 It uses the words "Trial Chamber". That is to be
24 contrasted, your Honours, with Article 18(4), which
25 provides that upon determination that a prima facie case
1 exists, the Prosecution shall prepare -- I am sorry.
2 Excuse me a moment. (Pause). Sorry, your Honours.
3 Article 19(2). Article 29(2) is, in my submission, to
4 be contrasted with Article 19(2), which gives a similar
5 power to a judge to issue orders, arrest, detention,
6 surrender and so forth relating to the conduct of the
7 trial, but an order under paragraph 2 of Article 19
8 would not have the same force and effect as an order
9 Article 29, paragraph 2, which expressly makes reference
10 to the Trial Chamber.
11 I would venture to suggest, your Honours, that the
12 difference between Article 19(2) and Article 29(2) is
13 grounded in the fact that Article 29(2) is a very
14 powerful provision and it relates to the Tribunal making
15 orders binding upon a state. That is a very serious
16 step to be taken, and I venture to suggest that the
17 drafters of the Statute considered that such a serious
18 step should not be taken unless it was taken by a Trial
19 Chamber as opposed to a judge. I may be wrong in that,
20 but that is what I consider may be the difference
21 between the two. But we are expressly seeking an order
22 under 29(2), and that can only be done by a Trial
23 Chamber. It seems to us, your Honour, that the
24 appropriate Trial Chamber is this Trial Chamber.
25 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: I do agree that there should be an
1 order if there is any good reason for an order against
2 any party who without an order would not comply with the
3 direction. That is perhaps my view about it. Then in
4 that case, one should be able to show why an order is
5 necessary in this case.
6 MR. NIEMANN: Your Honours, I mean --
7 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Especially against the state.
8 MR. NIEMANN: I think it would be unfair of me to say that
9 the failure of these people to attend rests entirely on
10 the state. I do not think that is true at all. I think
11 the individuals are largely responsible, but what I am
12 saying is that the state, if given an order under 29(2)
13 have led us to believe that they will comply with that
14 order, the state in this case will comply with the order
15 and give effect to the subpoena. The subpoena itself,
16 of course, is directed to the individuals, so it is a
17 two stage process. It is our belief that such an order
18 would be successful in terms of the state complying with
19 it. It is not as though we hold any apprehension that
20 the state is simply going to ignore the order of the
22 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Can we have any reaction from the
24 MR. GREAVES: My learned friend need not apologise for
25 seeking these orders urgently. As someone who
1 prosecutes and defends in the United Kingdom, my
2 experience is they are frequently orders which are
3 sought urgently. One has no views in particular on the
4 issuance of orders, save this, that your Honour will
5 note at page 2 of the motion by the Prosecution that
6 they offer someone up to give evidence about the efforts
7 which have been made to get these people here. Orders
8 of this kind are serious matters, which may involve
9 compulsion upon those to whom it is directed, and it may
10 be that your Honours would wish to take up the offer to
11 give evidence that is made by my learned friend for the
13 Can I move on from there and now I hope where, as
14 one is bound to occasionally wear an amicus curia hat,
15 all the proposed orders are in the first instance and if
16 your Honours look at the proposed orders attached at the
17 back of the motion, initially directed to a sovereign
18 state, the Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina. The position
19 as outlined by my learned friend as to the law is not
20 perhaps quite as straightforward as he might have led
21 your Honours to think. There is a problem that
22 your Honours may wish to consider raised by the
23 existence of the appeal lodged by the Republic of
24 Croatia in relation to this very matter. That arises
25 from a decision of 18th July 1997, with which two of
1 your Honours will be well familiar, having sat on that
2 decision and may be well taken to know the law in
3 relation to that, and I refer here to Judge Jan and
4 Judge Odio Benito. Also presiding in that case was
5 Judge McDonald.
6 There has subsequently been a decision of
7 29th July 1997, which was a decision of the Appeals
8 Chamber, Judge President Cassese presiding, your Honour
9 Judge Karibi-Whyte being part of that appeal Chamber and
10 also Judges Li, Stephen and Vohrah. The effect of that
11 decision -- if your Honour would just give me a moment,
12 please -- looking at the final part of the order that
13 was made by the Appeals Chamber, was to allow Croatia to
14 appeal the subject matter of the decision of 18th July,
15 rejecting Croatia's request to quash the subpoena that
16 had been issued in that instance, but suspending the
17 decision pending disposal of the present appeal by
18 staying the execution of the subpoena.
19 Can I also in this regard remind your Honours of
20 what happened in another matter on 18th March 1997.
21 There was a decision in Trial Chamber I, where Judges
22 Jorda, Li and Riad, in the interests of uniformity of
23 approach, referred a Defence motion, requesting the
24 Chamber to issue a subpoena to the Republic of
25 Bosnia-Herzegovina in order to compel the production of
1 documents, to Judge McDonald, as she had before her at
2 that stage related matters. The point is this: the
3 consequences of the appeal which has been lodged by
4 Croatia, it can go two ways: it can say that the
5 original decision of 18th July was correct, that there
6 is a lawful power within this Tribunal to issue
7 subpoenas, or it may say, and one does not know what the
8 decision will be until it is rendered, it may say that
9 such orders are unlawful.
10 Ponder for a moment what the possible consequences
11 of the latter decision being made might be. If in the
12 meantime orders issued to the government of
13 Bosnia-Herzegovina, which are subsequently found to have
14 been unlawful, firstly the individuals who are
15 ultimately the recipients of the order may find that
16 their civil and human rights have been violated because
17 of the execution of an unlawful order, and secondly, if
18 during the course of execution of an unlawful order
19 physical measures are taken to procure the attendance of
20 witnesses, if the order is found to be unlawful, then
21 the activities of laying hands upon the ultimate
22 recipients, the individuals would amount to an assault.
23 That is a serious matter.
24 I mention this because although it is plain from
25 the brief that was submitted by Bosnia-Herzegovina in
1 the 18th July decision that they accept or concede that
2 there is a lawful power, they may, of course, be wrong
3 in the light of the appeal that is to be heard. It
4 would be sensible in my submission to do two things
5 here. Firstly, to enquire whether the government of
6 Bosnia-Herzegovina does in fact have any views on
7 whether there should be a stay in the light of the
8 existing appeal; and secondly, your Honours may wish to
9 consider whether the appropriate course, if you decide
10 to issue an order, is to follow the procedure that has
11 been taken in the Croatia case, in the interests of
12 uniformity of approach, and suspend the execution of
13 those orders.
14 I raise those matters not because I particularly
15 oppose the issue of subpoenas, because those may become
16 important to the Defence just as to the Prosecution, but
17 simply to alert your Honours to a potential pitfall
18 which may cause all sorts of problems later on, and it
19 is the uniformity of approach aspect that your Honours
20 may feel is important to consider in this case.
21 I hope those remarks are helpful. If there is
22 anything I can assist any of your Honours on, I will be
23 happy to do so.
24 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Thank you.
25 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honours, I will be extremely brief.
1 First of all, let me say that I think as a
2 representative of Mr. Esad Landzo, or as a representative
3 of any defendant in this case, that any standing we
4 might have to discuss this issue is very limited,
5 perhaps only to the question of whether or not the
6 Prosecution has made a showing that the subpoena is
7 likely to produce relevant evidence, so any remarks that
8 I make this morning have to be, I think, in an amicus
9 curiae kind of position. If I had an opportunity to
10 argue the general issue before the appellate Chamber,
11 which now has this matter under consideration, I would
12 be heard to strongly urge the basic position taken by
13 Mr. Niemann; that is that this Tribunal has, and should
14 say that it has, the power to issue subpoenas.
15 It will be virtually impossible for defendants
16 appearing before this Tribunal, and brought before this
17 Tribunal, to be able to have fair trials if they do not
18 have the ability to subpoena witnesses in their Defence,
19 especially in a situation where one of the governments
20 in the former Yugoslavia is co-operative with one party
21 to the litigation, but totally uncooperative with the
22 other, so that one party to the litigation could have
23 access to evidence that could not be countered by the
24 other party because of no ability to subpoena.
25 Those are the arguments that I would make if
1 I were arguing to the appellate Chamber and it may very
2 well be, as Mr. Greaves says, that we must await the
3 decision of the appellate Chamber because, as
4 I understand it, the issues before the appellate Chamber
5 encompass everything down to the question of whether
6 there is power to issue subpoenas at all, and that would
7 be my submission. I thank you for your attention.
8 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Thank you very much. Yes, Mr. Moran?
9 MR. MORAN: Your Honour, again let me put on my amicus hat
10 and suggest this to the court. First, I think that the
11 government of the Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina
12 probably ought to be heard. As the Trial Chamber knows
13 or may not know, at least in this case, the government
14 of the Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina has been very
15 co-operative with the Tribunal, to the extent that when
16 the indictment against my client and Mr. Landzo was
17 interned, they actually called them and told them to
18 surrender themselves and they voluntarily -- the clients
19 voluntarily surrendered themselves to the government who
20 sent them here. With that said, the government of
21 Bosnia-Herzegovina may very well take the position that
22 we want to know from the appellate Chambers what our
23 obligations are before we start doing anything.
24 With that said, if I were appearing before the
25 appellate Chamber, I would disagree with Mr. Niemann to
1 this extent, on his argument; he looked at Articles 6, 8
2 and 9, saying this gives the Trial Chamber jurisdiction
3 to issue this. I would say that in fact your powers may
4 very well be broader than Mr. Niemann would suggest, by
5 basing them on Articles 6, 8 and 9 of the Statute.
6 Article 6 simply says you cannot try organisations like
7 they did in Nuremberg, the Gestapo, you have to try
8 people, and 8 and 9 talk about your authority to hear
9 and decide cases. I think the authority to issue orders
10 to government is somewhat broader than that. I would,
11 for instance, happily defend the proposition that the
12 Trial Chamber could issue a subpoena to the
13 United States government ordering the United States to
14 produce evidence, even though it is well outside the
15 territory of the former Yugoslavia.
16 But I think that the important thing at this point
17 is firstly the uniformity we have talked about, I think
18 we need to know what the appellate Chamber is going to
19 say; and secondly I think someone ought to pick up the
20 telephone and call the Bosnian Embassy here and offer
21 them a chance to come in tomorrow or Friday morning,
22 find out what the position of the Bosnian government is,
23 to see whether they want to push to await a decision
24 from the Appeals Chamber, to know exactly what their
25 obligation is. Thank you, your Honours.
1 MS. RESIDOVIC: May I, your Honours, also address
2 your Honours in connection with this issue. My learned
3 colleague Mr. Niemann drew attention to the importance of
4 the issues contained in the request for a subpoena, but
5 at the same time he confirmed that there was no doubt
6 that this Trial Chamber has the powers to issue such a
7 subpoena. I think that my colleagues on the Defence
8 have presented sufficient arguments to show why we need
9 to think over very closely the consequences of such a
10 premature decision, since in the Blaskic case the issue
11 of the powers of this Tribunal to issue subpoenas is
12 before the Appeals Chamber.
13 In the arguments offered by the Prosecutor, it is
14 stated that the position of the government of
15 Bosnia-Herzegovina is such that if the Trial Chamber
16 issues the subpoena and the order it will follow through
17 those orders. I personally am not familiar with the
18 position of the government of Bosnia-Herzegovina, except
19 as presented in the explanation, but as a person who has
20 for more than 25 years been working in the judiciary,
21 I could express my personal opinion, and that is that we
22 should give preference to all the means and
23 possibilities that would ensure the effectiveness of the
24 procedure, but I personally would not go so far as to
25 consider myself entitled to decide whether this Tribunal
1 has those powers or not.
2 I think that the government of Bosnia-Herzegovina
3 has never felt that it is up to it to say what the
4 competencies of the Tribunal are. Probably the
5 government too is fully aware, like all of us here, that
6 the position as to the authority of the Tribunal to
7 issue a subpoena or not is up to the Tribunal itself to
8 decide. Therefore, my country, like any other country,
9 is awaiting the decision of the Appeals Chamber to see
10 whether the Tribunal has that authority or not.
11 As for the other questions that have been raised
12 in connection with this matter, whether the Tribunal has
13 established that it has the power to issue a subpoena,
14 in that case, I feel that the party submitting such a
15 proposal or request before the Tribunal has to make such
16 a request a realistic one. Since Mr. Niemann and also my
17 learned colleague Mr. Greaves have expressed certain
18 views contained in national legislations, I should like
19 to take the liberty, if that may be of any assistance in
20 your determination, to familiarise you with the
21 procedural code of Bosnia-Herzegovina according to which
22 a national criminal court is entitled to subpoena a
23 witness and in the case that the witness has no
24 justified reason for not responding to the request for
25 appearance, he may be called up under threat of penalty.
1 Therefore we do not know whether in this case the
2 witnesses had any justified reason for not appearing,
3 and the national legislation of our country, which the
4 government of Bosnia-Herzegovina is bound by, protects
5 the citizens who for justified reasons are unable to
6 respond to a court order. These competencies of the
7 court are regulated by our procedural code, Articles 237
8 and Article 230.
9 To another matter, we all know the situation in
10 which Bosnia-Herzegovina finds itself. The dates
11 indicated in the request of the Prosecution are such
12 that even if such powers were established, it appears as
13 if one wishes to issue an order that cannot be followed
14 through, because it is that it is not possible to carry
15 through an order issued today by tomorrow, so that I am
16 not sure whether this request is well-founded and
17 furthermore, whether it is realistic and implementable.
18 Also, I agree with the proposal that a
19 representative of Bosnia-Herzegovina should be invited
20 to express the position of the Republic of
21 Bosnia-Herzegovina regarding this issue.
22 JUDGE JAN: May I say something? The subpoena sought by the
23 Prosecution -- I beg your pardon.
24 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Before any contribution, I attempted to
25 see the argument of Niemann who divides the application
1 into two parts, the part affecting the government of
2 Bosnia-Herzegovina and the aspect affecting private
3 individuals. A careful study of the case even on appeal
4 clearly indicates that the second part is not in issue,
5 so we have not had your comments on that aspect, whether
6 his application is affected by the fact that the case is
7 on appeal.
8 MR. GREAVES: I had just risen -- I am sorry, I did not mean
9 to interrupt. I do apologise.
10 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, your Honour.
11 JUDGE JAN: The subpoenas sought by the Prosecution affect
12 five persons; four I believe are witnesses of fact, they
13 have been asked to depose something which is within
14 their personal knowledge. Can there be any objection to
15 subpoena issued to an individual? You see the judgement
16 in the Blaskic case, the issues are entirely different.
17 There the state was asserting its sovereignty, saying
18 that no subpoena can be issued to a sovereign state, but
19 the question of issuing subpoena to four persons who are
20 being asked to give evidence from their personal
21 knowledge is an entirely different one.
22 As regards the custodian who is being sought to
23 produce documents and prove certain documents, maybe the
24 question of issuing subpoena to a sovereign state is sub
25 judice before the Appeals Chamber, but the argument was
1 that you cannot issue subpoena to a sovereign state, it
2 was not in dispute that a request can be made to a
3 sovereign state, which will have, of course, the effect
4 of an order.
5 MR. GREAVES: I had risen, your Honour, to remind you of the
6 terms of the appeal, it may be helpful to remind you of
7 that. It is plain that it involves the rights of
8 Croatia and sovereign states.
9 JUDGE JAN: And sovereign states, but they did not take the
10 position that no request can be made to a sovereign
11 state to comply with the order, and Article 29 would
12 apply as much to a subpoena as to a request.
13 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Actually the objection appears
14 essentially to be to the terminology used, to the word
15 "subpoena" in its traditional common law sense. This
16 is what they are objecting to, because devoid of its
17 element of coercion, I suppose they might not be
18 objecting. I agree that is still sub judice, there is
19 nothing one can do about it until it is decided, but if
20 one follows the provisions of Article 29 itself, I think
21 perhaps there is still a way out of getting into
22 conflict through the use of the word "subpoena".
23 MR. GREAVES: The proposed order is a --
24 JUDGE JAN: Just a minute. I was just going to ask
25 Mr. Niemann, instead of issuing a subpoena to the state
1 with regard to four witnesses of fact, why cannot we
2 issue a subpoena to those persons directly? They are
3 being asked to appear as individuals, not as
4 representatives or officials of the Bosnian government,
5 but as individuals.
6 MR. NIEMANN: I am just turning to look at it, your Honour,
7 because that was what I thought we had done. If there
8 is anything that is confusing by what we have submitted
9 in the motion, your Honour, then we would be anxious to
10 correct that, but the way we have drafted the draft
11 orders to the motion, it is separated. The first is an
12 order to the government of Bosnia-Herzegovina and it is
13 an order under 29(2). The second is in fact the
14 subpoena which is or was intended to be directed to the
16 JUDGE JAN: The draft which is before me, the first one, is
17 a subpoena to the Bosnian government to ensure that
18 these four witnesses appear before the Trial Chamber.
19 MR. NIEMANN: Yes, what is requested is that the government
20 of Bosnia-Herzegovina serve the subpoena, and then to
21 ensure they appear on the dates mentioned.
22 JUDGE JAN: Is it a subpoena to the government then? It is
23 not a subpoena to the officials?
24 MR. NIEMANN: No, the subpoena, your Honours, is the second
1 JUDGE JAN: To ensure that Asif and Jovan appear before the
2 Tribunal. Why not issue a subpoena directly to them and
3 request the Bosnian government to serve it upon them?
4 MR. NIEMANN: That is what we have done.
5 JUDGE JAN: But you are asking a subpoena to the
6 government. Look at the heading of this, "Order to the
7 Government of Bosnia-Herzegovina".
8 MR. NIEMANN: It may appear confusing, but there are two
9 draft documents attached to your Honours' motion. The
10 first motion is an order, the second one is a subpoena.
11 JUDGE JAN: But then you are also saying "ensure". They can
12 ensure service, but how can they ensure that they appear
13 unless you give a subpoena to them?
14 MR. NIEMANN: But we are, your Honour. That is the second
15 draft --
16 JUDGE JAN: I said instead of directing the subpoena to the
17 government, why not direct it to these four persons and
18 request the Bosnian government to have it served upon
19 them? It is a slightly different way of putting it, but
20 the objection which is raised in the Blaskic case would
22 MR. NIEMANN: That is exactly what we have done, your
23 Honour. There are two drafts. Does your Honour see --
24 JUDGE JAN: They are alternate drafts.
25 MR. NIEMANN: Your Honour should have two drafts attached to
1 your motion. Perhaps your Honour's motion is
2 deficient. You should have two drafts.
3 JUDGE JAN: I have two drafts.
4 MR. NIEMANN: One is to the individuals, which is the
5 subpoena, and the other is the order which goes with the
7 JUDGE JAN: Why not substitute the word "order" with a
8 "request", so the objection which is being raised in
9 the Blaskic case and is under consideration before the
10 Appeal Chamber, that will become irrelevant.
11 MR. NIEMANN: Because of the plain words of Article 29.
12 JUDGE JAN: I know, but still the matter is there before the
13 Appeal Chamber and I would not like to say something --
14 of course I was of the view, if we had the power, but
15 then there is another view which has been canvassed in
16 the court and our order has been suspended.
17 MR. NIEMANN: These are draft orders, if your Honours are not
18 happy with the wording of them, of course they can be
19 changed. If your Honours prefer to proceed by way of
20 request on first instance, obviously we have no
21 objections to endeavouring to proceed that way. If
22 your Honours feel more comfortable with that approach.
23 JUDGE JAN: I am quite comfortable as it is, but the
24 question of the matter is before the Appeal Chamber.
25 I am quite comfortable with all the drafts, speaking
1 personally, because I am party to the decision. I am
2 quite comfortable.
3 MR. NIEMANN: Perhaps if I could address a couple of matters,
4 your Honours? I agree with your Honour that the Blaskic
5 appeal which is presently under consideration is related
6 to the issue of subpoena against the state, which is a
7 controversial question.
8 JUDGE JAN: And may even extend to orders to sovereign
10 MR. NIEMANN: I understand what your Honour says, and for
11 that reason, changing the word to "request" from "order"
12 would be an appropriate move.
13 The question of bringing the government here,
14 there is two responses I have to that. One is that we
15 can say that from our position there is nothing to
16 suggest -- nothing that has been suggested to us which
17 would indicate that they are not willing to comply with
18 the provisions of Article 29.
19 JUDGE JAN: May I tell you something? While the matter is
20 being argued, two counsel appeared on behalf of
21 Bosnia-Herzegovina. One is Madam Vidovic, then there
22 was a Croat lady also. The Croat lady took the position
23 we do not have the power, but Madam Vidovic, she said
24 yes, we have the power. I wonder if you were there when
25 the arguments were being heard?
1 MR. NIEMANN: My response to that, your Honour, is that the
2 part of the government to which these people are
3 connected, we believe, may be covered by the ambit of
4 jurisdiction of Madam Vidovic. I cannot put it any
5 other way, but in terms of them appearing and if one is
6 precious of the rights of the government of
7 Bosnia-Herzegovina to be heard on this matter, I would
8 say that the rules do not necessarily envisage that they
9 need to be called in first instance, because that would
10 have to be done by way of amicus. They have no rights
11 as a party.
12 But the rules do envisage protection of their
13 rights by Rule 108bis, which specifically gives them a
14 right of review in the event that your Honours were to
15 make an interlocutory order of this nature, and it is
16 something that can be brought on quickly, can be brought
17 on within 15 days, so if one is concerned about the
18 rights of the government of Bosnia-Herzegovina, there is
19 provision in the rules to cater for that, and that can
20 be done quickly. It is not a question of the government
21 of Bosnia-Herzegovina not knowing anything about this,
22 I can say that they are well aware of what we are doing
23 and certainly have the documentation before them, so it
24 is not as though we are doing this without them knowing
25 what is happening.
1 In terms of people not complying for good reason,
2 of course that is what a subpoena is about. It is
3 implicit in any subpoena that if a person has a good
4 reason for non-compliance, then they are not met with a
5 sanction for failure to attend, and although the rules
6 of Bosnia-Herzegovina and the law of Bosnia-Herzegovina,
7 as referred to by Madam Residovic, may be worded perhaps
8 differently, the end result is the same. Obviously if
9 someone cannot attend and if there is good reason why
10 those people are refusing to come, that is a matter that
11 your Honours will no doubt take into account when
12 dealing with that question, but it is not a basis upon
13 which an order is not sought in first instance. One
14 seeks the order, one seeks the subpoena and then if
15 people cannot comply with it, it is for them to come
16 forward and give good reason. They can appoint counsel
17 or do whatever is necessary so that the Chamber can be
18 informed. Obviously if they present good reason for
19 their refusal to attend, that is a matter that the
20 Chamber can have full regard to.
21 Finally, I just conclude by saying that I do not
22 believe that the issue before the Appeals Chamber
23 relates to an individual -- subpoena against an
24 individual and I do not consider therefore that there is
25 any real danger of people being subpoenaed on an order
1 that may subsequently be found to be invalid, but even
2 if it were so, there is a presumption of validity of
3 your Honours' orders. Your Honours are entitled to
4 proceed at the moment on the basis of the law, there is
5 nothing in the law to suggest your Honours cannot do
6 this, and in my submission, it is clear that
7 your Honours can do it, there is a presumption of
8 validity. Even if the Appeal Chamber did come to a
9 conclusion that subpoena was not within the power of the
10 Tribunal, that would have no impact legally upon the
11 orders that your Honours would issue which would be
12 deemed to be valid and legal and only those orders
13 appealed against in any event could be held to be
14 illegal, but even so, they would be presumed valid until
15 such time.
16 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Yes, Mr. Greaves.
17 MR. GREAVES: There are four matters I want to raise with
18 your Honours. I suspect my learned friend has not read
19 his own draft. The heading of the draft to
20 Bosnia-Herzegovina says "order" and on the second page,
21 it says "hereby directs" and it contains as its final
22 paragraph this:
23 "Further directs in the event of non-compliance
24 with this order by the government that a representative
25 of the government appear before the Trial Chamber on a
1 named date to show why this order has not been complied
3 It does not sound like a polite request to me.
4 JUDGE JAN: It can be redrafted.
5 MR. GREAVES: Yes, but I think my learned friend did not
6 quite read that last paragraph when he used the word
8 MR. NIEMANN: Your Honours, I do resent the insinuation that
9 I have not read the orders. It is extraordinary
10 arrogance to say that. This arose as a discussion
11 between myself and His Honour Judge Jan as to whether or
12 not perhaps the word "order" should be changed to
13 "request". For counsel then to have the temerity to
14 get up and suggest I have not read it is frankly quite
15 unnecessary and insulting.
16 MR. GREAVES: If he feels insulted I apologise. However, let
17 us just make it absolutely plain what he is asking for.
18 That is what he is asking for, to direct, not request.
19 The second matter is this, these orders may well
20 become de rigeur in due course, particularly in view of
21 the determination of the appeal. However, at the
22 present time it may well be at the very least a sensible
23 courtesy to enquire of the Bosnian government if they
24 wish to be heard on this matter, so as we know exactly
25 what the position is.
1 JUDGE JAN: But Mr. Greaves, issuance of a request has not
2 been in controversy.
3 MR. GREAVES: Indeed no.
4 JUDGE JAN: So why the representative of the Bosnian
5 government at this stage?
6 MR. GREAVES: I am merely suggesting that as a sensible
7 courtesy, if nothing else, they may wish to be heard in
8 some way. They may say "we do not wish to be heard, it
9 is not a problem", but until the issue has been
10 determined on appeal, it may be no more than that, I am
11 merely suggesting it. If your Honours think it is a bad
12 idea, then I do not pursue it.
13 The terms of the appeal your Honours will be
14 familiar with, but there is one matter that arises out
15 of it. In the application for video-link, the
16 Prosecution asserted that two of the witnesses who are
17 the subject of this subpoena request are in fact serving
18 officers of the Bosnia-Herzegovina army. One of the
19 issues that has been raised is the issuance of orders to
20 sovereign states and their officials acting in an
21 official capacity. That is a matter that I raise that
23 JUDGE JAN: They are going to depose something which is
24 within their personal knowledge, nothing to do with
25 their official work, official responsibilities.
1 MR. GREAVES: I can see an argument for saying that I might
2 not concede that, your Honour. If they are deposing to
3 matters carried out during the terms of their official
4 capacity, then it may well be arguable that they are
5 acting in their official capacity, but I do not
6 particularly want to get involved in a long semantic
7 argument, but I merely alert your Honours to that as a
9 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Thank you very much, Mr. Greaves.
10 I think there is a necessary judicial caution at a time
11 when the matter is on appeal to find a way to deal with
12 it, so we will rise for a few minutes and discuss how to
13 deal with the intricate matter. It is a little
14 problem. We will come back at 12.00 and then we will
15 indicate our decision.
16 (11.15 am)
17 (A short break)
18 (12.00 pm)
19 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: The Trial Chamber has decided on making
20 a very short ruling. We have decided to grant the
21 application. Now let me read the ruling.
22 The Trial Chamber has heard the Prosecution in
23 this application for a subpoena, firstly against the
24 government of Bosnia-Herzegovina and its custodian of
25 records. The subpoena also seeks another against Asif
1 Paselic, Esad Ramic, Jovan Divjak, Kemal Dzajic and
2 Fadil Zebic to attend before the Trial Chamber to
3 testify in respect of matters within their personal
4 knowledge. Counsel to the Defence, Mr. Greaves, John
5 Ackerman, Tom Moran and Ms. Residovic appeared as amici
6 curiae and made very valuable contributions, for which
7 the Trial Chamber is very appreciative and grateful.
8 The Prosecution pointed out that it relied on the
9 jurisdiction of the Tribunal in Articles 6, 8 and 9 of
10 the Statute and the enabling provisions of Article
11 29(2). It was admitted that the Trial Chamber has the
12 statutory provision to make the order by virtue of
13 Article 29(2) and Rule 54 of the Rules of Procedure and
14 Evidence. The Trial Chamber is entirely in agreement
15 with this, but we fear there are certain definitional
16 inaccuracies which we would point out later.
17 The amici curiae pointed out that the question of
18 issuing a subpoena against it is pending in the Appeals
19 Chamber and the Trial Chamber should be wary in dealing
20 with the question. They all implored caution. We
21 entirely agree, and the Trial Chamber is aware of the
22 fact that the issue of the subpoena against sovereign
23 states is sub judice.
24 The Trial Chamber appreciates that it cannot, as
25 the law stands, grant the application without being
1 conscious of the specific provisions of Article 29, but
2 we agree it had jurisdiction under Rule 4 to make the
3 application. We agree also that under Rule 54, the
4 Trial Chamber can grant the issue of subpoena against
5 private individuals. Further, Article 29 vests in the
6 Trial Chamber the power to make an order in respect of
7 requests to sovereign states. On account of these
8 statutory powers, the Trial Chamber, having considered
9 the submissions of the Prosecutor, have decided to grant
10 the application within the terms of Article 29(2).
11 We therefore grant the request to
12 Bosnia-Herzegovina -- the requests, and not the
13 application of the subpoena to Bosnia-Herzegovina and to
14 the custodian of records of its government. The
15 application for subpoena against the named persons to
16 testify before the Trial Chamber is also hereby
17 granted. This is our ruling.
18 MR. NIEMANN: If it please your Honours. Your Honours,
19 I just would indicate at this stage that if now as a
20 consequence of your Honours' orders any of the witnesses
21 raise with us any genuine difficulties in complying with
22 the attendance dates of the subpoenas, we will raise
23 these before you and if it is appropriate seek a
24 variation of the actual dates, but I just should say we
25 will do that if it occurred.
1 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: At the time we heard the argument there
2 was no issue of change of dates, so we left the dates as
3 they are.
4 MR. NIEMANN: Yes, your Honour. Thank you.
5 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: So we can now continue with the
6 proceedings. I wish to express our gratitude to all the
7 amici curiae again. It was quite helpful. Not that we
8 are not conscious or aware of the fact that there are a
9 few fresh lights which were thrown on the problems true
10 of the problems which might arise. The Tribunal
11 believes we should try to work outside the field so that
12 we can get it without any conflicts.
13 MS. McHENRY: Your Honours, if I may take up a brief
14 housekeeping matter while we are waiting for the witness
15 to appear?
16 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Yes, you may.
17 MS. McHENRY: Your Honour, yesterday, towards the end of
18 the day, with respect to Witness J, I asked that the
19 prior statements be admitted into evidence as they
20 relate to impeachment. I believe your Honours granted
21 that. The Registrar has told me that she wishes in open
22 court to give them the numbers, so, just as a
23 housekeeping matter, I would just like the Registrar to
24 state the numbers of those two exhibits. Thank you.
25 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Thank you very much.
1 THE REGISTRAR: The exhibits are 183 and 184.
2 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Can you bring the witness in now?
3 (Witness entered court)
4 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Kindly swear the witness.
5 THE REGISTRAR: I should like to remind you, sir, that you
6 are still under oath.
7 JUDGE JAN: His microphone is probably not working.
8 MR. TURONE: May I proceed, your Honour?
9 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Yes, you may proceed.
10 WITNESS R (continued)
11 Examined by MR. TURONE (continued)
12 Q. Good afternoon, Mr. R. Yesterday before the break
13 talking about the conditions of life inside hangar
14 number 6?
15 MR. MORAN: Excuse me, just one second, your Honour, I am
16 sorry to interrupt, but looking at the transcript we are
17 seeing continuation of Witness J", and I just wanted to
18 make sure that the record is clear that this is Mr. R so
19 that at some point in the future --
20 JUDGE JAN: Quite right.
21 MR. MORAN: Again I apologise for interrupting.
22 MR. TURONE: Thank you very much, Mr. Moran.
23 We were talking yesterday about the conditions of
24 life in hangar 6 and you were talking about drinking
25 water supplies. Could you please tell us about food
1 supplies in the time when you were in hangar 6, please?
2 A. I do not know whether I said everything regarding water
3 supplies, I said that it was industrial water, but if
4 I may add a few sentences in connection with the water
5 and the bathing, after the second attack on Bradina on
6 12th July when it was burned down, July 1992, no water
7 could be kept in the hangar --
8 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honour, I am going to object. This
9 witness has on frequent occasions paid no attention to
10 the question and said "I am going to answer something
11 else first". In this case the question was about the
12 food supplies and he just volunteered that there were
13 things he wanted to say about the water without any
14 question being asked. It seems to me that, at a very
15 minimum, the witness should be asked to respond to the
16 question asked rather than going off on his own and
17 making speeches. That would be my objection.
18 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: I think the Prosecutor should remind
19 him to answer the question he asked.
20 MR. TURONE: Yes, please, Mr. R, I ask you to be responsive to
21 my question. We might go back to that with any other
22 question, but please give us your account about food
23 supplies now inside hangar 6, if you do not mind, thank
25 A. Very well, as you wish. At first, when we were
1 imprisoned, for the first two days we got no food. This
2 was in tunnel number 9. However, as your question was
3 very precise, and it referred to number 6, let me talk
4 about number 6. Food consisted mostly of stale bread,
5 made of stale flour and mouldy flour, and it had a very
6 unpleasant taste. The quantity was such that a loaf was
7 divided up among 14 or 15 or even more parts, so these
8 were very thin slices of bread, with which most
9 frequently we got nothing. Occasionally, we would get
10 some cold soup, which would be several days old, but the
11 problem was how to eat the soup in hangar number 6 in
12 which there were between 250 and 270 prisoners; there
13 were only five spoons. There were no plates or other
14 containers, but the soup was poured into a lid.
15 MR. TURONE: Excuse me for a moment. (Pause). You may go
16 ahead, Mr. R. Thank you.
17 A. The soup was poured into a lid and there were only five
18 spoons, so that the people who brought the soup would
19 pour some into a lid and five prisoners would use the
20 five spoons and grab as much as they could from that
21 lid, then leave the spoons and then the next five would
22 come and eat in the same way. It is interesting to note
23 where we ate, where the food was distributed. It was
24 right next to the door of the hangar, I do not know if
25 it is necessary for me to show you where on the drawing,
1 this was right next to the door, and during the night,
2 at that same place, the prisoners relieved themselves
3 during the night, because they were not allowed to go
4 out. So that that same spot would be just washed away
5 with a hose in the morning or some water would be
6 sprinkled on it and that was the place where we met.
7 Occasionally, there would be an ammunition box or
8 a rifle box on which that lid would be placed, and the
9 spoons would sometimes fall on the ground, but they
10 could never be washed, so that 250 to 270 prisoners,
11 depending on the number at the time, would eat with five
12 spoons, which were never washed in between. That is as
13 far as the food supply is concerned and the hygiene and
14 also the water in a sense, and I apologise for going
15 back to that all the time.
16 Q. Mr. R, was there any time when you remained without food
17 or without drinking water during the entire day during
18 your stay in hangar 6?
19 A. Yes. I remember for sure 28th June, because that is a
20 kind of Serbian national holiday and the gentlemen who
21 were guarding us knew better when those holidays were
22 than we ourselves, because we had no calendars or
23 anything else, so for sure on June 28th we got nothing,
24 no food nor water. The same occurred on 12th July when,
25 according to the old orthodox calendar, it is Saint
1 Peter's day and when Bradina was burned down for a
2 second time so that certainly that date was not chosen
3 by chance, so those two days we were left totally
4 without food or water.
5 Q. Could you now tell us about sleeping facilities inside
6 hangar 6? How did you sleep?
7 A. I said last time that we were all given positions where
8 we had to sit and from which we were not allowed to
9 move. We were also supposed to sleep on those same
10 positions, crouching down with our knees up, without the
11 right to utter a word, so what we would do, we would
12 just sort of stretch out on the concrete, on the same
13 position at which we sat.
14 Let me also mention in connection with sleeping
15 that after 12th July Mr. Delic issued special orders that
16 no one should sleep for three days, and during the night
17 the guards would come very frequently. Not only were we
18 not allowed to sleep, but we were not allowed to lie
19 down, we had to sit with our knees up and the guards
20 would check repeatedly to make sure that the prisoners
21 would not change positions, and the position of basluci,
22 the name given to us frequently by Mr. Delic.
23 Q. Could you now tell us something about the toilet
24 facilities in general while you were staying in hangar
1 A. At the beginning, for urination purposes five people
2 could go out together and use a canal which was situated
3 directly behind number 6. As for other toilet needs,
4 there was a pit dug out just behind hangar number 6, a
5 pit was dug out with a plank on it and this was used as
6 a toilet or whatever you like to call it.
7 Later on, as time went by, and as the conditions
8 became worse, Mr. Delic introduced his own methods so
9 that later it was not allowed for five people to go out
10 at a time, but five lines corresponding to the five rows
11 in the hangar, people would have to stand up to form a
12 line, one behind the other, to run out, then again to
13 form a line, a straight line to urinate and then to run
14 back again in a straight line and to sit back in his
15 position, and he would measure the time, he would time
16 this, and this took, I think, less than a minute,
17 because when the International Red Cross came, and when
18 this gentleman, I think his name was Michel, timed this
19 he said it was 40 seconds and he just lifted his hands
20 in wonder. That was an original invention of
21 Mr. Delic's.
22 As for going to the toilet, at first we were
23 allowed to go when we needed to, but later on there was
24 a system of numbers introduced and during the day only
25 15 people could go out who were given numbers, the
1 others had to stay inside, so that during the night when
2 people had bowel movement they had to do it inside right
3 next to the door.
4 At first there was -- something, I do not know how
5 to call it, like a bucket, it was plastic, but it would
6 always fill to capacity, it was a small bucket and
7 I said there were 250 to 270 prisoners, with the number
8 varying. It was always overspilling, so that it covered
9 the whole area around the door where we were served the
10 soup the next day.
11 Q. Thank you, Mr. R. Let us go to another topic now. Were
12 you ever interrogated by military investigators while
13 you were in Celebici?
14 A. Yes, once.
15 Q. Can you say approximately when did that happen?
16 A. I cannot remember the exact date, but the interrogation
17 came -- I was among the last to be interrogated because
18 the people believed what they were told, that as soon as
19 they were heard they would be released, so people were
20 rushing to get there first, so that I was among the last
21 to be interrogated.
22 Q. Can you say, where in the camp were you interrogated?
23 A. I was interrogated at the command building, not inside
24 but outside. There was a table on the model between
25 that building and building number D, as it is marked
1 here. We were called by the guards, we had to line up
2 and go towards the command building, then we were lined
3 up against the wall, I personally had to stand against
4 the wall of building number C with my hands raised up
5 high for at least, I assume, four hours, and the heat of
6 Herzegovina that can sweep Celebici and with my bald
7 head, without being allowed to put your hands down or to
8 ask for water -- when my turn came for the
9 interrogation, the interrogator, I think his name was
10 Subasic, he brought me to the table after spending so
11 long standing and when he started asking me questions,
12 and actually I could hardly speak, I had no voice,
13 because it had dried up, because of dehydration, and
14 this exposure to the summer sun without water, then he
15 called one of the guards to bring a glass of water, and
16 that is when the interrogation started.
17 Mr. Subasic said, "we know everything, absolutely
18 everything and we need no new information, but to
19 satisfy the procedure, do not even try to tell a lie".
20 Q. Was Mr. Subasic the only person who interrogated you?
21 I mean, were there any other people together with him
22 during this interrogation?
23 A. With me, or rather at the table, there was Mr. Subasic,
24 but the guards were around, but they did not ask any
25 questions, they were just armed and they were there.
1 Q. Was Mr. Subasic in uniform?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. How were you treated during the interrogation?
4 A. During the interrogation itself, no kind of violence was
5 resorted to, except for this previous period of
6 dehydration before I sat at the table. I can say that
7 Mr. Subasic was relatively correct during the
9 Q. During the interrogation, were you accused of anything
11 A. No.
12 Q. Was that a long interrogation?
13 A. No, the interrogation was very short, I do not think it
14 was ever completed actually. Nor did Mr. Subasic show me
15 what he wrote, nor did I sign anything. I think that
16 probably in his opinion it had not been completed. Why
17 it was not resumed later, I do not know.
18 Q. What did he ask you? Do you remember any specific
20 A. I think the standard questions at first, my name,
21 occupation, age, and that sort of thing.
22 Q. Did he ask you about your weapon?
23 A. Yes, certainly. He asked me.
24 Q. What did you answer about your weapon?
25 A. I said that I had this old or obsolete M48 rifle.
1 Q. Thank you very much. Sir, you said you were about --
2 among the last ones to be interrogated. As far as you
3 know, was any prisoner interrogated at the very
4 beginning, during the time you still were in tunnel 9?
5 A. I think that the interrogation started already at that
6 time for some people.
7 Q. Can you mention the name of any of the prisoners who
8 were interrogated at that early time when you still were
9 in tunnel 9?
10 A. I think this was on the second or third day. Among the
11 first was Dragan Kuljanin, and I do not remember any
12 other names.
13 Q. Who was this Dragan Kuljanin? How old was he and what
14 did he do?
15 A. He was an electrician, he worked in Konjic, in the Igman
16 factory, and I think he was born somewhere in 1960 or
17 1962, I do not know exactly. I know that he was beaten
18 up very badly, he had a leg injury and he limped when he
19 went for the interrogation. I know he had great
20 problems with the joint of his leg.
21 Q. Did this Dragan Kuljanin tell you anything about his
22 interrogation right after coming back to the tunnel?
23 A. Yes, he said that the investigator was to have been the
24 judge, Goran Lokas, and that he had refused, saying,
25 "I will not interrogate such people who have been
1 massacred in this way".
2 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honour, the question calls for hearsay,
3 not just what Dragan Kuljanin said but what Dragan
4 Kuljanin said somebody else said, so it is twice removed
5 hearsay at this point, with no foundation of reliability
6 whatsoever, not even any foundation that Dragan Kuljanin
7 actually heard something from Goran Lokas, but it is
8 hearsay that is going through at least two steps and
9 perhaps beyond that and I think for that reason it is
11 MR. TURONE: If I may respond, your Honour?
12 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Yes.
13 MR. TURONE: My submission is that Dragan Kuljanin referred
14 something immediately after his interrogation and he
15 referred what the person who interrogated him and this
16 I think corresponds to the general principles for
17 reliability of hearsay.
18 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please?
19 JUDGE JAN: Did he say that immediately after that gentleman
20 said he was not prepared to sit on the investigation
21 board? You are talking about someone else. He might
22 have heard it six months ago from someone else.
23 MR. TURONE: I beg your pardon. (Pause).
24 Mr. R, when did Dragan Kuljanin tell you all this?
25 Was that right after his interrogation?
1 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone please.
2 JUDGE JAN: These remarks must have been made much earlier
3 before this gentleman was detained himself.
4 MR. TURONE: We are talking about the first week of detention
5 of Witness R.
6 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Listen, let us go back and ask him the
7 question. Let him answer again and waste no more time.
8 MR. TURONE: All right. The question was: did Dragan
9 Kuljanin tell you who interrogated him and anything
10 about his interrogation right after coming back to the
11 tunnel, right after this interrogation had taken place?
12 A. He said at that time that the chief judge during this
13 investigation -- in this interrogation was going to be
14 Goran Lokas, but that he refused, saying that he did not
15 want to interrogate massacred people.
16 MR. ACKERMAN: Now there is not even any indication that he
17 talked to Goran Lokas, that he was not even there.
18 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: What he was saying is what the
19 gentleman told him.
20 MR. ACKERMAN: But we have no identification of who it was
21 that told him about Goran Lokas.
22 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: That is a different matter. He is
23 telling you what he was told.
24 MR. ACKERMAN: He is telling us, your Honour, what he was
25 told by Dragan Kuljanin, that someone else had
1 apparently told Dragan Kuljanin about what someone else
2 had said. That is the problem.
3 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: What he was told at the interview.
4 MR. ACKERMAN: It has not even been established who it was
5 that was interviewing Dragan Kuljanin.
6 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: That is a different matter. He went
7 for an interview and this was what he was told there.
8 MR. ACKERMAN: The question must be, for hearsay purposes,
9 your Honour, who it was that made this statement to
10 Dragan Kuljanin that Dragan Kuljanin --
11 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: That is not relevant, that does not
12 concern him. What concerns him is what he was told. If
13 in deliberating it we find that what was being told is
14 too remote or has nothing to do with what we are doing
15 here, we might -- so let him say what he was told.
16 MR. ACKERMAN: Let me then only request that the Prosecutor
17 establish who it was that said whatever was said to
18 Dragan Kuljanin. I think that is now in serious
20 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: You are going backwards, behind Dragan,
21 that is a different matter. Kuljanin was merely
22 speaking to this witness and this witness is merely
23 interested to tell us what he was told by Dragan.
24 MR. TURONE: Did you personally know who Goran Lokas was?
25 A. I knew because Goran Lokas was a judge. Personally I
1 was never in touch with him, I never contacted him,
2 I just know that he was a lawyer and a judge.
3 Q. Thank you. Let us go to another issue, Mr. R. Did you
4 personally suffer any physical maltreatment; I mean any
5 other physical maltreatment during your stay in Celebici
6 besides the beating on the very first day?
7 A. Yes, but not as much as some other people did.
8 Q. Did you receive personally, not meaning group beatings,
9 personally particular mistreatment and can you tell us
10 how many times and give us an account of these
12 A. I personally was beaten twice, that is up until the
13 visit of the International Red Cross, on which occasion
14 we were all beaten up, so let me go back to those two
15 occasions. The first time it was Mr. Zenga that took me
16 out and he slapped me hard, but that was not a bad
17 beating. At that time there was a guard in front of the
18 hangar, Rustem Murici who was an Albanian and who I knew
19 for about ten years before the war started and who said
20 to Mr. Zenga, "do not beat up this person for no reason,
21 for no good reasons", things like that, approximately
22 like that. That is what he said. Then Zenga turned
23 around to him and Zenga said, "who did I ever beat up
24 and was not ordered to do so?" So that was the end of
1 In comparison to other kinds of beating, this slap
2 was nothing, but in a sense it was beating, it was
4 The second time, the second beating was in the
5 hangar itself, Mr. Zenga used to walk around and to force
6 the prisoners to do push-ups and as people were starved
7 and they were deprived of water and he would order them
8 to do 10, 15 push-ups, they would be able to do one or
9 two and then they would fall down into the dust, on
10 their nose or on their stomachs. Then Mr. Zenga would
11 stand them up by kicking them with his boot, and there
12 I got two hard kicks.
13 The last beating that I received was the third day
14 after the visit of the International Red Cross, which
15 was on 13th, 14th August. So that was on 13th August,
16 the second day, when the visit was finished and the
17 representatives asked for statements on the conditions,
18 of the number of dead and their names. When they left,
19 Mr. Delic came in with the entire guard, there were about
20 15 of them, and there was another guard there who was
21 not on duty at that time who was a former policeman in
22 the old Federal Police, and his nickname was Focak.
23 Then we were ordered to sit up in our usual
24 position and the position was to put your hands up
25 behind your head and these 15 -- with Mr. Delic and
1 Mr. Focak there were 17 of them altogether -- so all
2 guards would pass by the prisoners and would kick them
3 in the kidney area or lower back or around the spine,
4 would kick them with their boots. So they were passing
5 and every prisoner would get these kicks from 15 guards
6 and Delic was saying, "I will give you your Red Cross".
7 Q. Going back to the beating you personally received from
8 Mr. Zenga, doing the push-ups, did Mr. Zenga say anything
9 while doing this to you?
10 A. I do not know, I could not remember that now. I could
11 not recall specific words or sentences.
12 Q. All right. Can you say the complete name of this guard
13 named Zenga?
14 A. His last name is Landzo, everybody called him Zenga, his
15 first name could be Omer.
16 Q. How did you get to know his name and his nickname?
17 A. I learned from other prisoners. I did not know this
18 man, Mr. Zenga, before arriving at number 6, but after
19 these beatings, after being taken out, I asked, "who is
20 this person who is taking persons out?", and they said,
21 "this is Zenga and he is the leader of the people who
22 beat prisoners".
23 Q. Mr. R, did you personally eyewitness any mistreatment of
24 any other prisoners while you were in hangar 6? Could
25 you please tell us if you eyewitnessed incidents like
1 that one by one?
2 A. I do not know where to start from, because there was no
3 order to it in all these beatings. I do not know where
4 to start, with beatings, with deaths.
5 Q. Let us start with the incidents which did not cause the
6 death of anybody.
7 A. Those incidents were a daily occurrence, so to speak.
8 When the night came, that is right after dusk, that
9 would be about 10.00 or 11.00 in the mid summer, the
10 door would open and at the entrance, without coming in,
11 Zenga would call out persons who needed to come out. He
12 would call them by their first and last name. He could
13 conclude that it was Zenga by his voice, by his timbre,
14 because it was a very characteristic voice. It was
15 almost a whining voice and it is almost to being
16 feminine sounding.
17 Also it was characteristic the way he called
18 people out, he would say, "Vukasin, come out", or Hristo
19 Vukalo for instance, he would just say "Vukalo".
20 Q. Let us please give an account one by one of these,
21 specifically about these incidents, with details you
22 could eyewitness, personally observe, anyway
24 A. I could personally speak to two deaths, Milorad Kuljevic
25 and Bosko Mrkajic.
1 Q. I am sorry, Mr. R, just for a reason of order, let us
2 talk about deaths later on and let us talk about
3 incidents which did not end with the death of anybody
4 first, if you do not mind.
5 A. It would always start with calling out the person and
6 this person would come out and then the beatings would
7 usually be carried out in front of number 6 on this
8 concrete --
9 MR. TURONE: I am sorry, Mr. R, could you please wait for a
11 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: I think we will have a break here for
12 lunch while you organise your examination, be able to
13 know exactly what issues to talk about.
14 MR. TURONE: All right.
15 (1.00 pm)
16 (Adjourned until 2.30 pm)
1 (2.30 pm)
2 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Kindly invite the witness.
3 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honour, may I ask something while we are
5 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Yes.
6 MR. ACKERMAN: In my mind at least, it continues to be a
7 problem that when we argue legal matters that the
8 witness tends to get involved in those arguments; not
9 just this witness, I am referring to what is a
10 continuing problem. I know it concerns all of us and
11 I believe it concerns the Office of the Prosecutor, my
12 esteemed colleague Mr. Niemann supported a previous
13 objection I made in that regard and I have a
14 suggestion. It may make sense, if it is not too
15 disruptive, when clearly there is going to be extended
16 legal argument, for the witness to be asked to remove
17 his headphones. If he cannot hear what is going on, he
18 cannot make contributions to it.
19 The other thing that would accomplish is it would
20 keep the witness from being educated by either party as
21 to what we might expect that witness to say when finally
22 asked the question. I do not know if that is workable,
23 but it may be a solution. I just wanted to pass it
24 along to the Trial Chamber for your consideration.
25 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Thank you very much.
1 MS. RESIDOVIC: Your Honours, may I also make two brief
3 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Yes, you may.
4 MS. RESIDOVIC: redacted)
6 (redacted)As I do not speak English I have not compared
7 the translation, but I have been told that there is a
8 word which changes the meaning from the negative to the
9 positive, so I would ask the court translators to
10 compare the two versions after which we can submit the
11 best translation to the Registry. A second point
12 I should like to make is a question addressed to
13 Mr. Niemann; in view of your ruling this morning, Esad
14 Ramic has been summoned as a witness. I have asked
15 several times whether the Prosecutor has spoken to this
16 witness, and if they have any statement of his could it
17 be given to the Defence, so that we might prepare
18 ourselves for the cross-examination of this witness.
19 JUDGE JAN: You have named a protected witness just now. We
20 will have to redact the name from the record. You were
21 referring to the statement made yesterday, he is a
22 protected witness and we refer to him as Mr. J, so for
23 the name, you can put the word Mr. J in the redacted
24 record. Is that your objection, Mr. Niemann?
25 MR. NIEMANN: No, your Honour, I was going to rise in
1 relation to the other matters.
2 MS. RESIDOVIC: I apologise and thank you, your Honour.
3 MR. NIEMANN: I think we may be asking for redaction, I will
4 have that organised.
5 Your Honours, I just rise in relation two
6 matters. Firstly in connection with the witness Ramic
7 who has been subpoenaed. The answer is no, we do not
8 have a statement, but we will try to assist the Defence
9 by providing them with what we anticipate he will attest
10 to, and there may be documents that we may refer to and
11 we also refer their attention to that.
12 In relation to the matter raised by Mr. Ackerman,
13 we do support Mr. Ackerman in that, your Honours.
14 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Actually, it is one of some difficulty,
15 especially when it involves witnesses who become
16 agitated, I do not know what for, and they want to get
17 into the argument themselves. I prefer finding a
18 solution to it. We will think about a solution which
19 can remove them during such arguments; it is not even
20 merely removing the headphones but completely removing
21 them, but usually everyone is not too sure how extensive
22 the argument will be, so that is another problem, but
23 I think we will try as much as possible to make
24 witnesses appreciate that. It is not for their benefit
25 that the arguments are going on, it is for other
1 purposes, so we will do our best.
2 MR. NIEMANN: Your Honours, if it is of any assistance to
3 you, it is the practice we applied in the Tadic case,
4 and it seemed to work reasonably well. It does save the
5 inconvenience of having the witness coming and going all
6 the time, especially when they are protected witnesses,
7 and it is necessary to put the blinds up and down and
8 that sort of thing. It did work reasonably
9 successfully, if that is of any assistance to your
11 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Actually some of our problems -- we
12 thought here that the witness should come in before we
13 came in but we are having difficulties in that regard.
14 MR. NIEMANN: Yes, your Honours. Now that your Honour has
15 raised that, I was going to raise it later this
16 afternoon, and ask whether or not that could be a
17 practice, having regard to what I have seen in the
18 memorandum that has been sent by the Registrar. It is a
19 matter of great concern to us and I was going to ask the
20 Chamber if you would indulge us by permitting the
21 witnesses to come in after your Honours are sitting, so
22 as to prevent that from happening.
23 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: I think we will (inaudible).
24 MR. NIEMANN: As your Honour pleases.
25 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Thank you. Let us have the witness.
2 (Witness entered court)
3 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Kindly remind the witness he is still
4 on his oath.
5 THE REGISTRAR: I am reminding you, sir, that you are still
6 under oath.
7 MR. TURONE: May I proceed, your Honour?
8 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Yes, you may.
9 MR. TURONE: Thank you. So, Mr. R, could you please describe
10 in detail and specifically the incidents that you
11 personally observed and can remember one by one.
12 A. Perhaps I should begin with the pouring of petrol --
13 JUDGE JAN: Mr. Turone, maybe it would be more convenient if
14 you can ask him if a particular person was in hangar
15 number 6 at the relevant time and so what happened to
17 MR. TURONE: If your Honour would prefer me to ask every
18 single prisoner --
19 JUDGE JAN: Relating to a particular person, ask him if he
20 was there in the hangar. This would be cut short.
21 I think this was what Mr. Niemann was doing, "was such
22 and such a person there and what happened?".
23 MR. TURONE: I will proceed like that.
24 JUDGE JAN: I do not think the Defence has any objection.
25 MR. MORAN: Not at all, your Honour, I think that is the
1 preferred practice, to do a question and answer.
2 MR. TURONE: So Mr. R, do you know a person by the name of
3 Vukasin Mrkajic?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Was he also a prisoner inside hangar 6?
6 A. Yes, he was also a prisoner. May I thank the court for
7 this suggestion because it facilitates my testimony.
8 Q. Thank you, Mr. R. So, did you observe any incident
9 concerning Mr. Vukasin Mrkajic?
10 A. As far as Vukasin Mrkajic is concerned, he was beaten
11 almost daily by any one of the guards or by the deputy
12 commander Delic, whenever he would come in. He was one
13 of the targets and he was regularly beaten; but let me
14 focus on one particular detail of the torture to which
15 Vukasin Mrkajic was exposed.
16 Some slow-burning fuse was wound around his body,
17 Mr. Zenga came to the door and called Vukasin out, and
18 I witnessed his going out the door, and a few minutes
19 later, Vukasin came back and he had this fuse wrapped
20 around his waist. One end was inside his trousers and
21 Zenga was following him and the fuse was burning and he
22 was jumping up and down, because it was causing burns,
23 so when he came in, he was jumping about, trying to
24 prevent the contact between the fuse and his body .
25 Zenga followed him and ordered him to sit down in
1 his place, which was predetermined for him.
2 Q. Did you have any chance to personally see the blisters
3 caused by the fuse?
4 A. Yes, the blisters were all over the body. These were
5 blisters filled with liquid which later burst, so that
6 they turned into open wounds.
7 Q. Did Zenga say anything during this incident?
8 A. At this moment, I cannot recall any particular words
9 that he spoke.
10 Q. Did Vukasin Mrkajic receive any medical care after this?
11 A. No, Vukasin Mrkajic was never given any kind of medical
12 care or treatment and when he addressed Mr. Delic, if he
13 had the occasion to do that, the answer he was given
14 would be, "you have to die anyway so sit down".
15 Q. Do you know a person, I think you mentioned him, named
16 Hristo Vukalo?
17 A. Yes, I do know Hristo Vukalo, he was also a prisoner
18 with me.
19 Q. In hangar 6?
20 A. Yes, in number 6.
21 Q. Could you observe any incident concerning this person?
22 A. Yes, Hristo Vukalo was treated in the same way with this
23 fuse being wrapped around his waist, in the identical
24 manner as with Mrkajic. He was called out outside,
25 Zenga took him out and then he came back with the
1 burning fuse round his waist, and he had to sit down, so
2 that the procedure was virtually identical.
3 Q. About Hristo Vukalo, could you observe -- do you
4 remember having personally observed any burns caused by
5 the fuse on him?
6 A. Yes, I did see the burns, and in addition to that, there
7 were haematoma on the body of Hristo Vukalo because he
8 was several times before that and after that beaten
9 severely, his whole body, his back was totally black and
11 Q. Do you remember Zenga having said anything during this
12 incident, the fuse incident concerning Hristo Vukalo?
13 A. I cannot remember anything specific, I just know that he
14 called him out in his specific tone of voice, calling
15 out, "Vukalo", and then that he accompanied him back, so
16 I cannot recall any particular words or phrases that he
18 Q. All right. Did Hristo Vukalo receive any medical care
19 after that incident?
20 A. No, never.
21 Q. Do you know a man by the name Mirko Babic?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Was he also prisoner in hangar 6?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Did you observe or eyewitness in whole or in part any
1 incident concerning Mirko Babic?
2 A. Regarding Mirko Babic, he was also taken out or called
3 out by Zenga and he came back with trousers which were
4 still smoking. They were burning and the edges were
5 still smoking. I remember that when we asked later on
6 during the night, we asked him what had happened to him,
7 he said that Zenga had poured some petrol or some other
8 inflammable liquid on his lower legs and that he had set
9 fire to it, and that is how the burns had occurred.
10 There were blisters with lymph inside and these burst
11 and one could almost see the bone.
12 Q. You mean you could personally see the blisters on the
14 A. Yes, personally.
15 Q. From which distance could you see this injury, on which
17 A. The distance between my place and his was about five or
18 six people in between, but sitting very close to one
19 another, so those injuries could be seen when we would
20 run out to go to the toilet or to urinate.
21 Q. Can you describe this blister as much as you can in
22 detail? Was that on one leg or both legs?
23 A. As far as I can recall, it was on one leg, but the
24 distance between me and Mr. Babic was, as I said, five or
25 six people between us. But there were other instances
1 of such burnings, the consequences of which I could see
2 very close up. I could mention the case of Dusko Bendzo
3 and Nedeljko Draganic.
4 Q. We will go to that too in due course, but can you say
5 approximately, very approximately when did Mirko Babic
6 receive this injury on the leg?
7 A. Are you thinking of the date, the period of time?
8 Q. At least the month.
9 A. It was probably in August.
10 Q. Did Mirko Babic receive any medical care after this
12 A. No, though Mirko Babic did ask Mr. Delic to give him any
13 kind of medical assistance, but Delic's response was,
14 "where is your son now to help you?", though Delic knew
15 well that Mirko Babic was not married and that he had no
16 children. He would add, "you have to die anyway". That
17 was a favourite phrase that Mr. Delic used in his
18 communication with the prisoners; "sit down, you have to
19 die anyway, whether you are given medical assistance or
21 Q. Did Mirko Babic receive any other mistreatment besides
22 this burn on the leg?
23 A. Yes, he was exposed to daily beatings, and a special
24 type of mistreatment were these constant threats and
25 questions, "where is your son?", because we all knew
1 that he was born somewhere in the 30s, 33, 35, we knew
2 that he was a forest warden and that he was never
3 married, so this was done intentionally to hurt his
4 feelings, because he was not married.
5 Q. What about the beatings you were talking about? Did you
6 personally see, by whom was he beaten?
7 A. He was beaten in person by Delic and by Zenga. During
8 the night he was called out by Zenga, now who was with
9 him I cannot claim, because it was night-time, so I could
10 not see, but when it happened in the hangar, it was
11 Hazim Delic and Zenga who personally beat him.
12 Q. Did these beatings occur before or after the burn on the
14 A. I think there were beatings before and after.
15 Q. All right, Mr. R, so you were saying something about
16 Dusko Bendzo. Did you then observe an incident
17 concerning him?
18 A. As far as Dusko Bendzo, he was also taken out many times
19 and beaten, but let me answer your question regarding
20 burns. He was also called out in front of number 6 by
21 Mr. Zenga, and we heard his cries or moans, and then
22 Bendzo returned, again accompanied by Zenga, to his
23 place. Both his lower legs were terribly burnt. He had
24 on him a red sweat suit which was burnt up to the
25 knees. It was totally burnt as far as the knees, and on
1 the bones of his lower legs, one could see very large
2 blisters which were soon filled with lymph, so these
3 were large blisters which burst shortly afterwards, so
4 that on both legs, one could see the bone right through,
5 the burnt meat and the bone.
6 I must add that Dusko Bendzo was not in the first
7 row next to me, but the next row, quite opposite me, so
8 that I could see those injuries every day. I could see
9 them much better than in the case of Babic.
10 Q. Do you remember Zenga saying anything during this
11 incident or on the occasion of this incident?
12 A. I could not recall exactly now. I cannot remember the
13 details now.
14 Q. Did Dusko Bendzo receive any medical care after this
16 A. No, because Dusko Bendzo was also on Delic's list of
17 those who had to die, so that when he too asked for any
18 medical assistance, he got the same answer, "sit down,
19 you have to die anyway".
20 Q. You were talking about Nedeljko Draganic also. Did you
21 observe any incident concerning Nedeljko Draganic?
22 A. Nedeljko too was taken out several times and beaten
23 during the night, but as for the same system of burning
24 legs, I remember also an occasion when Mr. Zenga called
25 him out, and that he was brought back escorted by him.
1 He was sitting right in the row directly opposite me,
2 facing me, so that I could observe that wound or the
3 burn from a distance of maybe two metres every day. His
4 trousers were also burnt through, and as far as I can
5 remember that was only on his right leg, it was not on
6 his left leg but on the right leg, in the case of
7 Mr. Draganic.
8 Q. Can you describe this injury on the leg?
9 A. Yes. It was not the whole length of the shin, as in the
10 case of Mr. Bendzo, whose wound was really terrible.
11 This was more like a round wound affecting the muscle
12 and the tissue, but in time, probably because of the
13 dirt in the environment and because of the bacteria, the
14 wound festered and it spread and there may even have
15 been a danger of total infection of the leg.
16 Q. Do you remember Zenga having said anything during this
18 A. No, I do not remember. I only know that in connection
19 with Draganic himself, Mr. Delic told Zenga to take him
20 away and to carve in the Chetnik sign on his forehead,
21 but for some reason, he either forgot -- he failed to do
22 it anyway, because the comment was, "you had this sign
23 on your cap at a party once", and as Nedeljko said it
24 was not true, Delic told Zenga, "take it away and carve
25 it in so that he does not forget", but probably
1 preoccupied with the beating of other prisoners, he
2 probably forgot to carry out those orders. I do not
3 know why.
4 Q. Did Nedeljko Draganic receive any medical care after the
5 burn on the leg?
6 A. I think that Nedeljko was taken to the infirmary and
7 that for a time, he had some kind of a bandage on the
8 wound. Whether there was any other medication used,
9 antibiotics or anything like that I do not know, but
10 I think for a time he did wear a bandage, but not for
12 Q. Thank you. Mr. R, do you know a man (redacted)
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Was he also prisoner in hangar 6?
16 A. Yes, yes.
17 Q. Could you personally observe any incident concerning
18 this man?
19 A. (redacted) was also taken out several times during
20 the night and beaten, but I remember an incident when
21 Zenga took him out, or rather he called him out from the
22 door, and when he came back, he had very large burns on
23 both palms of his hands, and they swelled up very soon
24 into large blisters, like balls. These blisters covered
25 his palms entirely, and they were full of liquid too.
1 Q. Did (redacted) tell you how he got these blisters on
2 his hands?
3 A. Yes, he said that Zenga had put a heated knife or a
4 bayonet on to his palms.
5 Q. Did (redacted) receive any medical care after this?
6 A. No, he did not.
7 Q. Mr. R, do you know a man by the (redacted)?
8 A. Yes, he was also a prisoner in hangar number 6.
9 Q. Did you personally observe any incident concerning Momir
11 A. Yes, the very same story, so to say. He was also
12 brought out, called out by Zenga, he went out and when
13 he came back he had very heavy burns, which also then
14 were filled with lymph and then broke, so the skin
15 disappeared and the flesh was exposed.
16 Q. Did (redacted) tell you anything about how he received these
17 blisters, these injuries on the hands?
18 A. Yes, he said that Zenga also put this knife over a fire
19 and then that the knife that was thus heated was then
20 placed on the palms of his hands.
21 Q. Do you remember Zenga having said anything, (redacted)
22 (redacted) out of the hangar?
23 A. No, not beside that. I do not know if he said anything
24 else, I just do not remember.
25 Q. All right. Did (redacted) receive any medical care
1 after this incident?
2 A. No, he did not.
3 Q. Do you know a man by the name Mirko Djordjic?
4 A. Yes, he was also a prisoner in hangar number 6 in the
6 Q. Did you observe personally any incident concerning Mirko
8 A. It was the same case as with the others, all the people
9 I have already mentioned, it was a similar incident that
10 occurred outside, I did not see it personally, I did not
11 see the knife being placed there, but it was the same
12 scenario, he was called out by Zenga and he used to call
13 Mirko "Vojvoda's brother" because he was the brother of
14 Rajko Djordjic who was for some reason proclaimed by
15 them to be a Vojvoda, so he would say "come on,
16 Vojvoda's brother, come out". When he came back he had
17 burns on his face and his tongue and he told us that
18 Zenga put a heated knife against his tongue under threat
19 that if he did not stick his tongue out that he would
20 cut it off. Then he also had visible burns on his face,
21 on his cheeks.
22 Q. Did Mirko Djordjic receive any medical care after that?
23 A. No, he did not.
24 Q. Again, did you personally eyewitness any mistreatment of
25 a sexual nature committed against any prisoners inside
1 hangar 6?
2 A. Yes, that was an incident, I do not know how to call it,
3 an act of violence committed against the brothers
4 Dordic. It is not just a common incident. Vaso and
5 Veseljko Djordjic were brought in from the village of
6 Zukici several days after we were already in hangar
7 number 6. Veseljko is the youngest of the two and so
8 Vaso was older and the younger brother had his arm
9 broken. I remember him, he wore a red -- he was wearing
10 a red sweat suit, and the top was very short, and he had
11 a splint on the forearm and it was tied with two
13 I witnessed that whole incident, that beating,
14 because Zenga did this right in the hangar in the
15 presence of all the prisoners. Zenga was beating
16 Veseljko, that is the younger brother who had this
17 broken arm, and he was asking him whether he had a
18 rifle, he said he did not, then Zenga continued beating
19 him, until Veseljko said, "yes, I did have a rifle".
20 "Were you meeting with Chetniks in Bradina?", he said
21 he did not, and then the beating continued until
22 Veseljko said that he did. Then the question was, "did
23 you take food to the Chetniks" and Veseljko said yes, so
24 all following questions were answered by "yes" so that
25 he would prevent further torture. "Did you have
1 machine-gun?", yes. "Did you have this, did you have an
2 aeroplane", yes, so Zenga himself started laughing in
3 the end, after having asked him all these questions of
4 what he had.
5 Then he ordered him to unbutton his pants and to
6 put his genitals into his brother Vaso's mouth.
7 Q. Did you have a chance to eyewitness other mistreatments
8 which took place through the use of particular
9 instruments or devices?
10 A. If among the instruments for torture can be also counted
11 the device that is used, like an electric prod for
12 cattle, then that was one of them. This was a case in
13 August. I know that it was not in the beginning.
14 Mr. Delic had developed a habit or custom to bring in
15 this device, he would place it against the shoulder or
16 neck of a prisoner and then turn it on. I think he did
17 it most frequently to a person whose nickname was "Sis",
18 who was a policeman before the war in the Konjic
19 municipality. His name was Davor -- probably Kuljanin,
20 his nickname was "Sis". I think he was Kuljanin, Davor
21 Kuljanin, I think.
22 Q. You were aware of any other particular instrument used
23 for --
24 A. Okay. I know that certain guards like Kravar, his real
25 name is Enid Spago, he was using intertwined cables,
1 this was about 1 metre in length, several cables that
2 were intertwined, it was like braided together. That
3 was his favourite instrument for treating the prisoners,
4 and also among these instruments was a gas mask --
5 JUDGE JAN: We are not interested in Kravar.
6 MR. TURONE: I think he is finished about Kravar actually.
7 He is just giving the account.
8 JUDGE JAN: We are concerned with these four accused, not
9 with the other persons.
10 MR. TURONE: In any case, Mr. R, we were saying something
11 about masks. Can you go ahead, please?
12 A. As I said, Zenga had a habit of taking people out,
13 I know that he did this to Jovo Kuljanin, he placed his
14 gas mask on his face, specifically he called out Jovo
15 Kuljanin, he brought him out. When Jovo Kuljanin
16 returned back, he was escorted by Zenga, step by step,
17 and he had this mask on his face, with an air filter
18 which was plugged. His hands were tied behind his back;
19 that is of the victim, of Jovo Kuljanin.
20 Zenga brought Jovo to his place and stood by him
21 until he fainted, and then he took him off. The face of
22 a victim of this gets very ashen type of coloration and
23 only later did his complexion return to normal.
24 Q. All right, Mr. R. Thank you. Let us go to other
25 topics. Do you know a man by the name Milorad Kuljanin?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Was he also prisoner inside hangar 6?
3 A. Yes, he was also prisoner in number 6.
4 Q. Could you observe an incident concerning Milorad
6 A. Yes, I was a witness --
7 Q. Can you say approximately when did this incident happen,
8 at least in which month?
9 A. That I can say fairly precisely. Milorad Kuljanin's
10 death occurred on Bajram, which is a Muslim festival, a
11 holiday. I do not know exactly the date when it was in
12 1992, so I cannot place it particularly, but I know it
13 was on Bajram, because the guards kept saying several
14 days before the Bajram, "if we do not slaughter ten of
15 you for Bajram, we are no good Muslims", and Kravar was
16 the leading one among them, and I apologise to the judge
17 for bringing him up again.
18 Q. Mr. R, can you please give us a detailed account of what
19 happened to Milorad Kuljanin that day? Approximately at
20 what time of the day did this incident happen?
21 A. That was morning, could have been 9.00 or 10.00 in the
22 morning, so it was in the morning, I cannot say
23 precisely the hour, because none of us had a watch so we
24 could not say. It was not very early in the morning, it
25 was around 9.00 or 10.00. At that time there was -- the
1 torture of running out in a column to urinate had still
2 not been introduced, so we were still going out in
3 smaller groups, so that this morning I was out with a
4 small group of five or six people and we were relieving
5 ourselves in this canal in front of hangar number 6.
6 While we were still standing there lined up, we heard
7 voices on the railroad tracks, coming from the railroad
8 tracks, and then between this mound and hangar number 6,
9 two guards appeared and at the door, from the door step,
10 they called out Milorad Kuljanin's name, they told him
11 to come out. Milorad came out --
12 Q. Can you say the names of these two guards?
13 A. The one who called Milorad out and who was the leading
14 person was Esad Macic, whose nickname is Makaron. I do
15 not know the names of the other two guards, because my
16 attention was trained on the person who was actually
17 performing this abhorrent act.
18 Q. Can you say the names of the other prisoners who were
19 outside with you to urinate?
20 A. Zeljko Cecez, called "Spaniard" and Marinko, I think his
21 last name was Kuljanin he was working the ticket window
22 in the railway station, he was Kuljanin, so there were
23 another two men, but I cannot recall their names right
25 Q. Macic called Milorad Kuljanin out of the hangar and what
2 A. He brought him to us, right there to the canal where --
3 Q. When you say "he", who do you mean?
4 A. I am referring to Macic, to Makaron. He asked him,
5 right there in front of us, which was in our immediate
6 vicinity, "were you in the reserve forces in Mostar?";
7 that is in the reserve forces of the JNA, this was
8 during the conflict between the army and part of the
9 Mostar population. He said that he was not. The next
10 question asked him by Macic was, "who else from Konjic
11 was there with you in the reserves, because we know you
12 were there". Milorad said that nobody was there, and
13 then Macic ordered him to lie down into this urine which
14 was in the canal, because this urine did not drain
15 through this canal, only if the level rose to a certain
16 level would it drain away, so it was really like a
17 puddle, and the canal was not on an incline so that it
18 would all drain.
19 So he ordered him to lie down facing the ground,
20 and when he lay down and when he was all wet, then he
21 told him to turn around so that he would be lying on his
22 back, so that he would be soaked the other side. Then
23 he again asked him, "who from Konjic was with you in the
24 reserves?" Milorad again repeated that nobody was
25 there. Then he fired from a distance of 20 to 30
1 centimetres into his face.
2 Q. You mean "he", who?
3 A. Macic shot Kuljanin in the face.
4 Q. With which kind of weapon did he shoot?
5 A. I do not know what type of weapon it was, it was
6 produced somewhere else, I think it could have belonged
7 to the NATO forces, because I know the weapons
8 produced -- manufactured domestically, because we all
9 had to serve in the army so we knew what was produced by
10 Zastava, so I know it was not one of their weapons, so
11 it must have been from the west.
12 Q. How many shots did Macic fire?
13 A. He fired three shots into Milorad Kuljanin's face, into
14 the face and the neck, in that area.
15 Q. From where, from which distance could you see this
17 A. The distance was such that when these bullets were fired
18 into Milorad Kuljanin's face, the skull sort of burst
19 open, so to speak, and the brains and the blood just
20 splattered on all of us, so it was a very short
21 distance, maybe one step away, so it was very close.
22 Q. You mean that you personally were reached by this brain
23 and blood?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. What did the guards do right after this?
1 A. Immediately the guards ordered us to re-enter the hangar
2 and they closed door behind us.
3 Q. Did you ever have any chance to see Milorad Kuljanin or
4 his body again after that?
5 A. I would just like to mention that about 15 minutes
6 later, the older brother of Macic came, his name is Sead
7 Macic, the younger is Esad Macic, Makaron, the older's
8 nickname was Maca, and he called the five of us out.
9 When we came out, the body of Milorad Kuljanin was no
10 longer there. It had been removed. I do not know where
11 it was taken or by whom.
12 Q. You did not see this body any more?
13 A. Correct, in the sense, no I did not see him again,
14 because it was already removed.
15 Q. So you were called outside again after about 15 minutes,
16 all five of you, by the brother of Makaron, and what
17 happened then?
18 A. He took our names down on a piece of paper, the five of
19 us who were outside, and he said that when we returned
20 in the hangar we should say that we did not see
21 anything. The shot was heard, that is the shots were
22 heard inside number 6, but we should say that we did not
23 see anything, and again he quickly pushed us back inside
24 the hangar and he closed the door.
25 However, additional 15 minutes later --
1 Q. Let me ask you, before that, let us go back to the very
2 moment of the shots, when you were reached by brain and
3 blood, did you see Milorad Kuljanin falling down,
4 I suppose?
5 A. Yes, he fell and the death was immediate, because the
6 skull just opened up and so the exit wounds just burst
7 the skull, so when he fell, he was dead, it was just the
8 last sort of spasms of legs and arms.
9 Q. Then you could observe that after that he was
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. So let us go ahead then. After the first time you were
13 out then you were called after 15 minutes and then you
14 were saying something else about what happened after 15
15 more minutes. What happened then?
16 A. The older brother Macic came again and he again called
17 us out, this time by name, from a piece of paper that he
18 had, and he said, "Milorad Kuljanin tried to escape, and
19 he was killed in the process of escaping", so he came
20 back to the hangar just to tell us what we had seen.
21 Q. So what happened after that?
22 A. Again after a very short time, maybe ten or fifteen
23 minutes, Macic appeared for the third time, he called us
24 out for the third time.
25 Q. You mean Macic or Macic's brother?
1 A. The older brother, and he said that Milorad Kuljanin had
2 tried to snatch away a gun from the guard and that the
3 guard had unintentionally fired and killed Milorad from
4 a close distance.
5 Q. So what happened after that? Did you go back into the
6 hangar after this further conversation with Macic's
8 A. Yes, Macic again pushed us back in and closed the door
9 behind us.
10 Q. What after that? Did any other incident take place
11 later on the same day?
12 A. Yes, that same day, in the evening, Zeljko Cecez,
13 nicknamed "Spanac", "the Spaniard", was also killed. He
14 was the first on the list compiled by Macic when he took
15 us out, the older brother Macic, when he called us out.
16 Q. Who took Cecez out of the hangar?
17 A. Zenga took him out. Again, in his inimitable voice, he
18 came in the evening and he called Zeljko Cecez to come
20 Q. Do you remember approximately at what time of the
22 A. It may have been about 10.00 or 11.00.
23 Q. What happened after Cecez got out of the hangar?
24 A. We heard blows -- let me just mention that nothing in
25 nature can be compared with the sound made by a human
1 being when he is being beaten. It is a sound that
2 cannot be found anywhere else. So we heard the blows
3 hitting the body of Zeljko Cecez, his cries and moans.
4 This may have lasted 25 to 30 minutes, and then the
5 people who were beating Zeljko brought him back to the
6 door of the hangar, and Zenga -- again, I recognised him
7 by his voice, because we had no light -- he said to
8 those people who were right next to the door to throw
9 Zeljko in, and he closed the door. The order was that
10 if anyone tried to assist Zeljko that he would suffer
11 the same fate as he. When the door was closed, if
12 I may?
13 Q. Yes.
14 A. Zeljko probably not knowing himself where he was, as he
15 was probably falling into a coma, he was crying out,
16 "for heavens' sake, is there anyone to help me?" He
17 repeated this several times in the darkness. When the
18 people who were close by had concluded that Zenga and
19 his team had left, they somehow managed to give Zeljko
20 Cecez some water, but soon afterwards, we heard no more
21 cries or moans or anything at all.
22 Q. When Cecez was returned into the hangar, could he reach
23 his position inside the hangar by himself or was he
24 brought to his position by somebody?
25 A. I think he never reached his position, he was shoved in
1 by Zenga, and his killers, from the door, and maybe only
2 a step or two from the door, his body was found in the
3 morning, he was probably trying to crawl or to move in
4 those last moments of his life, before he died.
5 Q. Do you mean that the following morning when you could
6 see him, you realised he was already dead?
7 A. Yes, he was not in his place, he is in between the two
8 inner rows of people, of prisoners, and he was lying in
9 the same position as he was thrown in, his clothes were
10 all torn, his trousers were torn up to above the knees,
11 and the colour of his body was ash grey, as if there was
12 never a drop of blood in that body.
13 Q. Approximately from which distance could you observe
14 Cecez the following morning?
15 A. The distance was maybe three steps.
16 Q. Could you specifically describe the injuries you could
17 see on this body?
18 A. One could not see any open wounds on the body because
19 obviously he was beaten with a blunt object, but
20 haematoma could be seen all over his body, from the torn
21 clothes, the trousers, the sweater, they were all torn.
22 One could see the bruises underneath.
23 Q. How long could you observe the body remaining in the
24 same place in the hangar before he was removed?
25 A. I do not know how long that period could have been, but
1 it was from the beginning of dawn, as soon as it was
2 light enough for us to see the body, until the guards
3 opened the door and ordered the body to be carried out.
4 The guards did not open the door always at the same
5 time, it may have been 6.00 or 7.00, it depended on
6 their will. So it was early morning, from very early
7 morning until the guards opened the door.
8 Q. So was that more than one hour?
9 A. Yes, I think it was more than one hour, one and a half,
10 maybe two hours, I really cannot be more precise, but it
11 was more than one hour.
12 Q. During this period of time, did the body have any
14 A. No.
15 Q. Did the body have any sign of life whatsoever?
16 A. I said that the colour of the body was grey, greyish
17 black, black and blue actually, as if no normal human
18 blood had circulated through that body.
19 Q. Do you remember by whom the body was removed?
20 A. I do not know exactly, but one of the prisoners had to
21 carry out that body. It was usually the people sitting
22 close to the door. But I think the order came from the
23 guard Kravar -- I apologise again, I think that morning
24 he was the first to open the door and give orders for
25 the body to be carried out.
1 Q. All right. So Mr. R, let us go to another topic. Do you
2 know a man by the name of Scepo Gotovac?
3 A. Yes, he too was a prisoner in hangar number 6.
4 Q. Was he sitting in a position close to you?
5 A. No, I was sitting at the other end in relation to the
6 door and Scepo Gotovac was sitting almost next to the
7 door, so there was quite a bit of distance between the
8 two of us, so if you have the drawing I can show you, if
10 Q. Yes, please. May I ask the usher to provide the witness
11 with the map, which is I think numbered as 182.
12 (Handed). Could you put it on the ELMO, please, so that
13 the witness might show to the court the position of
14 Scepo Gotovac inside the hangar, and maybe mark this
15 position writing with an X, writing "Gotovac" right
16 close to the X.
17 A. On the drawing, it is already indicated where I used to
18 sit, but Gotovac was here (witness marks map).
19 Q. Could you please write Gotovac near this place? Thank
20 you very much. Did you personally observe an incident
21 concerning Scepo Gotovac? Could you please say, first
22 of all, approximately when this incident happened or at
23 least in which month?
24 A. I cannot remember the exact date, but I remember when
25 Gotovac was brought in. He was wearing blue worker's
1 overalls and a cap with a shield. When he was shoved
2 into hangar number 6, and he was shoved in by Mr. Delic,
3 he said, or he asked him, in front of all of us, "why
4 did you kill", I think he said somebody called Jusuf, in
5 1941 or 1942. Gotovac answered that he had not done
6 that, because at the time he was in a camp, he was not
7 on the spot at all. Then Mr. Delic said to him, "if you
8 had ten lives, you will not survive".
9 Q. Then did anything else happen to Mr. Gotovac?
10 A. After that, according to the established scenario, Zenga
11 would come in the evening, he called out, "Gotovac", he
12 took him out, we heard blows and cries, and some unusual
13 sounds of knocking, and 20 or 25 minutes later, Gotovac
14 was brought back to the door of the hangar, and I think
15 the people next to the door helped him, though he did
16 not have to be moved far to reach his place, if he was
17 still alive at the time.
18 However, in the morning when it dawned, I was
19 rather far away, so I cannot claim anything with
20 precision, but there was something on Gotovac's
21 forehead, nailed on to his forehead, whether it was a
22 cockard, the sign of the Serbian Democratic Party or
23 something else, I cannot tell with precision because it
24 was quite far away from me.
25 Q. Could you observe, even from a distance, Mr. Gotovac
1 sitting there close to the door in the morning?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. How long could you observe him staying there?
4 A. As was the case with all the other prisoners who died
5 after beatings overnight, from the moment it became
6 daylight, and until the guards came in and gave orders
7 for the body to be removed, so it could have been an
8 hour and a half or two hours, because I said the guards
9 did not open the doors at exactly the same time every
10 morning, and also none of us had a watch so we could not
11 tell exactly what the time was.
12 Q. Did you have any chance to get closer to Gotovac before
13 he was removed?
14 A. No, I did not have a chance, I was sitting in my
15 position, and from the distance I could see that there
16 was a sign nailed to his forehead.
17 Q. From that distance, could you see if Gotovac had any
18 movement or not?
19 A. Gotovac did not move, he lay there in a position that a
20 dead man takes up.
21 Q. All right, Mr. R. Do you know a name -- do you know a
22 man by the name Simo Jovanovic?
23 A. Yes, he too was in hangar number 6.
24 Q. Did you personally observe any incident concerning
25 Mr. Simo Jovanovic?
1 A. Yes, Simo Jovanovic was also taken out several times and
2 beaten before the last time when he passed away.
3 Q. Can you say who called Mr. Jovanovic out of the hangar?
4 A. Mr. Zenga called him out, in the usual way, in the
5 evening, when darkness fell, the call would come from
6 the door, Simo Jovanovic went out, and in the morning,
7 the first beating -- after the first beating, he had
8 haematoma all over his body. Then several days later
9 exactly the same occurred. He was called out again by
10 Zenga, Simo was brought to the door of the hangar, and
11 I do not know how he reached his place, but in the
12 morning, when it dawned, he was lying in his place, with
13 a red sweater on him which was quite torn, so you could
14 almost see the whole of his chest naked, which was also
15 black and blue, and his trousers were torn and wet.
16 Whether he was being -- whether any water was poured on
17 him during the beating or during the night, but what
18 I can say is that the trousers were quite wet, because
19 the cloth was of a different colour, part of the
20 trousers was quite dark from the liquid from the
21 dampness. I cannot say whether the top was also wet,
22 because it was red in colour and it does not change
23 colour when it is wet.
24 Q. Did you hear Zenga saying, Zenga's voice saying anything
25 particular during these occasions, either when he called
1 Jovanovic out or in any way during these incidents?
2 A. I do not know exactly what the phrase was, but I know
3 that Simo Jovanovic was repeatedly accused of having had
4 machine-gun, weapons, he was asked where they were, who
5 he had given them to, et cetera. I also know that
6 before the war, he was a respected owner of a fish pond,
7 a good man, one might say. Whether his wealth was sold
8 out or not, I do not know.
9 Q. When Jovanovic was returned into the hangar, either the
10 first time or any other time, did you recognise any
11 voice saying anything?
12 A. I said it was only Zenga's voice who called out these
13 men, and the voice who ordered the prisoners near the
14 door either to move the body of the beaten person to his
15 place, or giving the order not to touch or help,
16 otherwise they would suffer the same fate.
17 Q. When Jovanovic was called out the last time and he was
18 returned the last time into the tunnel, did you hear any
19 voice saying anything else?
20 A. I cannot recall such details, I am afraid.
21 Q. All right. At this time when he was returned to the
22 hangar the last time, did Jovanovic reach his position
23 in the hangar by himself, or was he brought there by
25 A. I cannot say with certainty, because Jovanovic's
1 position, if I may show you on the drawing, was
2 somewhere here (indicates).
3 Q. Could you please mark this position with an X and write
4 "Jovanovic" close to the mark?
5 A. (Witness marks map).
6 Q. Could you in any way observe Jovanovic the following
7 morning after the dawn, after the sunlight came?
8 A. Yes, I could, but it was quite a distance, because he
9 was not quite opposite to me, but he was to one side,
10 but he was on his -- in his place, and I do not know how
11 he managed to reach that place, whether somebody helped
12 him from the door, or he managed himself before dying,
13 I cannot tell.
14 Q. Can you describe the body, any characteristics, any
15 injuries or anything on this body?
16 A. I said a moment ago that he was wearing a knitted woollen
17 sweater, a thick sweater, which was torn, and through
18 the tears one could see the bruises, the black bruises.
19 Also his trousers were quite wet except for at the ends,
20 and I could tell that because the material changes
21 colour when it is wet.
22 Q. What about his face, did you notice anything on his
24 A. As I was saying, the face was the colour of earth, grey,
25 the colour of death. He was lying on his back. One
1 could see the whole corpse but especially the head
2 because it was leaning back against the wall of the
4 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Thank you, Mr. Turone. I think we will
5 break and come back at 4.30.
6 MR. TURONE: All right, your Honour.
7 (4.00 pm)
8 (A short break)
9 (4.30 pm)
10 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Maybe this is the opportunity to
11 announce that the Trial Chamber will be sitting at 11.00
12 am tomorrow morning, instead of 10.00. (Pause).
13 (Witness entered court)
14 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Mr. Turone, you may proceed.
15 MR. TURONE: Thank you, your Honour.
16 So Mr. R, we were talking about Simo Jovanovic and
17 you just marked his position on that map. My next
18 question is: how long could you observe Jovanovic, or
19 his body, remaining in that same place in the hangar
20 that morning?
21 A. That could have been about an hour or two from the
22 moment of the first light, the break of dawn, that is,
23 until the guards opened the door and ordered the body
25 Q. During this period of time, did the body have any
2 A. No, it showed no signs of life.
3 Q. By whom was the body removed; do you remember?
4 A. I do not recall exactly who it was, but it was some of
5 the prisoners on the orders of guards, I do not know who
7 Q. Was this the last time you saw the body of Jovanovic?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. All right, Mr. R. Now, let me ask you, do you know a man
10 by the name Bosko Samoukovic?
11 A. Yes, he was also a prisoner in number 6, to put it that
12 way. He worked for the rail roads and he had already
14 Q. Could you observe any incident concerning Bosko
16 A. Yes, virtually all prisoners in the hangar could see
17 that, because Bosko Samoukovic was killed in front of
18 everybody who was in the hangar at the time.
19 Q. Can you give us a detailed account of what happened to
21 A. This was in the period when Bradina was burned down for
22 the second time, to the ground, so that was after
23 12th July 1992, two or three days after that. Mr. Delic
24 ordered at that time that all prisoners from Bradina be
25 beaten three times during that day, as punishment, and
1 these beatings were administered by either the guards or
2 Delic himself. I know that Zenga entered that day and
3 issued an order, he said, "all people from Bradina get
4 up". For some reason, Bosko Samoukovic did not get up,
5 but remained seated. Zenga came up to him, because he
6 knew he was from Bradina, and said, "why did you not get
7 up?". Bosko got up, and Zenga ordered him to assume
8 this position which was for beating, spread legs, the
9 arms behind the head -- and Zenga at that time was
10 carrying a plank. It was 7 or 8 by 3 to 4 centimetres
11 and it was about 1.2 metres long. At one end was sort
12 of tapered so that he could hold it in his hand. With
13 that sharp edge that was on this piece of wood, he hit
14 Bosko in the kidney area, as Bosko was standing, and in
15 the area of the liver.
16 Bosko fell down, and I think that Delic entered at
17 that moment, and he ordered Bosko to be taken to the
18 infirmary. I know that Brane Gligorevic was sent with
19 him at that time. Brane used to work as a medical
20 technician in Konjic before the war. Shortly
21 thereafter, he came back, maybe after about no longer
22 than 15 minutes, and when he entered the hangar he gave
23 a sign showing that Bosko had already died, and I know
24 also, because next to me, to the right, his son was
25 sitting, and he started crying.
1 In this number 6, there was another son of
2 Bosko's. He also received special treatment by Delic.
3 Twenty times, or however many times Delic would enter
4 number 6, it was always the same procedure.
5 "Samoukovic, get up", so he would have to stand up,
6 turn around and spread legs and put the hands behind his
7 head and Delic would always go through the same
8 treatment. He would hit him several times, kick him in
9 the genitals and this would happen every time that Delic
10 would come into the hangar.
11 Q. During the beatings of Samoukovic, did Zenga say
13 A. I could not remember what he said.
14 Q. During the beatings done by Mr. Delic, did Delic say
15 anything, as far as you remember?
16 A. I could not remember that now.
17 Q. Do you remember, approximately how long did the beating
18 of Bosko Samoukovic last?
19 A. That lasted very briefly, only several minutes. But the
20 blows were so hard, and they were delivered with swings,
21 and so -- it was also a man who was already elderly, so
22 the injuries were so serious that Bosko passed away in
23 ten to fifteen minutes.
24 Q. Can you say, approximately when did this incident
25 happen, at least in which month?
1 A. This could have been two or three days following
2 12th July, so 13th -- not really 13th but 14th or
3 15th July, probably in that period.
4 Q. All right, Mr. R, thank you. Can you tell us now, do you
5 know a man by the name Zeljko Klimenta?
6 A. Yes, he was also a prisoner in number 6.
7 Q. When was the first time you saw Mr. Klimenta in hangar 6?
8 A. I saw Klimenta for the first time in the hangar when we
9 were transferred from tunnel number 9 to number 6. That
10 was approximately a week after our imprisonment, so this
11 would have been very early in June, so that it would
12 have been June 2nd or 3rd.
13 Q. You mean he was in hangar 6 when you arrived, is that
15 A. Yes, he was already there, he was already in hangar 6
16 when our group was transferred there, so he was already
18 Q. In which conditions was Mr. Klimenta when you arrived in
19 hangar 6 and saw him the first time?
20 A. Mr. Klimenta was in a very bad shape. I can show it on
21 the drawing, he was in the very corner, opposite the
23 Q. All right, can you mark there with an X there and write
24 Klimenta close to the mark?
25 A. (Witness marks map).
1 Q. Did he ever say to you who had beaten him?
2 A. I know that on one occasion Delic asked him in a
3 sarcastic way, "so who beat you up?", and Klimenta said,
4 "you did". Zeljko was in very bad shape, I think he
5 had spinal injuries, and we were there together before
6 he was moved to the infirmary, and he was immobile and
7 he was moaning, and I remember very well when Delic
8 asked him, "so who beat you up?", and he said, "you
10 Q. So Klimenta was brought to the infirmary. Did he ever
11 come back to the hangar?
12 A. Yes, Klimenta may have spent about 40 days in the
13 so-called infirmary and eventually was brought back to
14 number 6. However, those injuries were healed more or
15 less, but he still moved very slowly and with
16 difficulties, he moved his legs with difficulty, and it
17 could appear strange, but Zeljko had more of a freedom
18 of movement than the rest of us prisoners, and maybe it
19 was some kind of crazy courage that he had to move
20 around more around number 6, but from close distance,
21 you could hear the creaking of his bones as he was
22 moving around.
23 The same was with this young man nicknamed Mici.
24 This may sound unbelievable, but that was how it was.
25 Q. Was there a time when any other incident occurred which
1 you could observe or eyewitness in part or in whole
2 concerning Mr. Klimenta?
3 A. Yes, as I said, Klimenta had more of a freedom of
4 movement, maybe because he personally knew all these
5 guards who were in Celebici, or maybe he even assisted
6 them financially so that they would turn a blind eye
7 when he would move around in number 6. I know that one
8 morning, let me backtrack a day, Mr. Emir Kovacic came to
9 the camp and he asked to see Mr. Klimenta and to give him
10 two packs of cigarettes.
11 Q. I beg your pardon, can you say who is this Mr. Emir
13 A. Emir Kovacic is a man who worked in the health centre in
14 Konjic and he may have visited the camp twice while
15 I was in Celebici. However, whenever Emir Kovacic
16 visited the camp, the next morning somebody would be
17 dead in number 6.
18 Q. What happened when Emir Kovacic came? Did he come for
19 any reason concerning Klimenta inside the hangar?
20 A. He entered number 6 and he was escorted by Mr. Delic, and
21 Kovacic asked to see Klimenta and give him these two
22 packs of cigarettes. I remember Delic then said, "why
23 does he need cigarettes when I am going to kill him
25 Q. Approximately at what time of the day did this happen,
1 this visit of Emir Kovacic to Mr. Klimenta?
2 A. I think that this was in the morning, late morning,
3 maybe it was already day, so 10.00 or 11.00 in the
5 Q. So did anything else happen to Klimenta in the following
7 A. During that night, the following night, I know that the
8 guards called out, "Klimenta", early in the morning,
9 I think it was 4.00 or 5.00 in the morning, so this was
10 the twilight time, neither night nor day, and I know
11 that Miodrag Kujundzic came out with him.
12 Q. I beg your pardon, who called Klimenta out of the
14 A. I do not know exactly who called him out at that moment,
15 who the guard was who called Klimenta out.
16 Q. So what happened? He went outside and also Kujundzic
17 went outside?
18 A. Yes, and very shortly after he had gone out, a shot was
20 Q. Do you know the reason for which Kujundzic followed
21 Klimenta outside?
22 A. I would not know the reason, but Kujundzic was
23 distributing food, so he was going to the command
24 building, so he also had more of a freedom of movement
25 than the rest of the prisoners and he was out there with
1 Klimenta that morning.
2 Q. So you said shortly after Klimenta had gone out, a shot
3 was heard.
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Do you ever have a chance to see Klimenta again after
7 A. No, never again, that was the last time.
8 Q. Did Kujundzic come back to the hangar after the shot?
9 A. Yes, you could say it was the next moment, a couple of
10 seconds later, he ran in the door and he was holding his
11 head with his hands and he said, "they killed Zeljko".
12 Q. Did he say anything more precise about the fate of
13 Klimenta, how it happened, who killed him et cetera?
14 A. We asked him who killed him and he responded, "it was
15 the guard Padalovic", and that was the only comment that
16 he made.
17 MR. TURONE: All right. Your Honour, may I now tender for
18 admission this Exhibit 182, the map with the marks.
19 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: You can, unless there is any objection
20 to it.
21 MR. TURONE: Thank you very much.
22 Mr. R, what role did you observe Mucic having in
23 the Celebici camp?
24 A. Well, he was the commander in the camp at Celebici, and
25 at Musala in Konjic, so both of them, both camps in
1 Konjic were under his command.
2 Q. How do you know that? How do you know that particularly
3 concerning Celebici, of course?
4 A. How shall I say it? This was general knowledge. If you
5 are looking for small details, I can say that whenever
6 he would come to the camp, which was not often, we had
7 to address him as "Mr. Commander".
8 Q. Did you ever see Mr. Mucic coming into hangar 6?
9 MR. OLUJIC: Objection, your Honours. This is a leading
11 MR. TURONE: Your Honour, I do not think this is a leading
12 question, I just wonder whether --
13 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: No, you can put the question. I do not
14 see what it leads to.
15 MR. TURONE: Did you ever see Mucic coming into hangar 6
16 during your stay in hangar 6?
17 A. Yes, I saw it on two occasions, if we disregard the
18 first time when we were moving to the hangar, so as
19 I said, I did not see him often, but he did come.
20 Q. All right. Did he always wear a uniform both times when
21 you saw him come in to hangar 6?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Can you give us precise details of the two different
24 occasions when Mucic came into hangar 6? Start with the
25 first occasion, whatever you like.
1 A. I know that he once came escorted by Mr. Delic. He
2 entered the hangar and Delic was walking a step behind
3 him to the right on his right side. At that moment,
4 Mr. Mucic was wearing the uniform, but not the same one
5 that we had when we were transferred from the tunnel to
6 number 6. He had a uniform and boots, but he only had a
7 sweat shirt, not a full uniform and he did not wear a
9 Q. Was that in any way a camouflage T-shirt?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Can you please give us a precise and detailed account of
12 what happened on that occasion?
13 A. Mr. Mucic walked from one prisoner to the next and when
14 he would address any one of us we would have to stand at
15 ready and answer the questions that he asked of us.
16 Q. Can you say, approximately when did this occasion take
17 place, I mean at least the month?
18 A. I think this was in August, because I believe that the
19 beatings had, so to speak, ebbed in comparison to the
21 Q. How long did Mr. Mucic remain inside the hangar in this
22 occasion, approximately?
23 A. It was for quite some time, I think it was almost for
24 two hours.
25 Q. How did he treat prisoners during this couple of hours?
1 A. We had to sit in the position I have already described
2 with our legs up against our bodies. Then Mucic would
3 tap somebody on the leg, telling him to get up. He
4 would say, "you", or something to that effect. Then the
5 man would have to get up and to say, "yes, Mr. Commander"
6 and to answer any questions that were put to him. There
7 was no physical beatings, he would just tap a person and
8 this was a sign that he had to get up and stand ready.
9 Q. What do you mean, "tap"? Tap with what?
10 A. With his leg, his shoe or his shin, but it was not a
11 blow to inflict pain, it was just a sign to tell him to
12 get up.
13 Q. Did he do that with many prisoners?
14 A. Yes, yes. It was quite some time, I do not know whether
15 he spoke to everyone, but to most people.
16 Q. What did he tell them?
17 A. He mostly asked, "did you have weapons?". I do not know
18 about the others. I remember for example Dusko Bendzo,
19 I remember him because he was the first, and I know he
20 asked him, "how much do the Serbs still owe you for
21 distributing the weapons? How much have you still not
22 collected?", because Dusko Bendzo was a taxi driver
23 before the war.
24 Q. At this time, had Dusko Bendzo already received his
25 burns on his legs?
1 A. I think so, I think he had, yes.
2 Q. Do you remember whether the blisters on Bendzo's leg
3 were visible at that time?
4 A. I think that the blisters had dried up, but the scars
5 were still visible, though the blisters were no longer
6 blisters, they were just scars.
7 Q. When he came close to you, did he also tap you? Did he
8 also talk to you?
9 A. Yes, he said, "you".
10 Q. What did you do then? Did you stand up?
11 A. I got up, like all the other prisoners, and I stood at
12 attention and said, "yes, Mr. Commander".
13 Q. What did he tell you? Did he tell you anything?
14 A. He asked me, "did you have any weapons? Did you have a
16 Q. What did you answer?
17 A. I said, "yes, I did".
18 Q. Did Mr. Mucic tell you anything else?
19 A. Yes, he said, "you too wanted a greater Serbia, you too
20 fought for a greater Serbia".
21 Q. So this is about the first occasion you said. Do you
22 then remember the other occasion when Mr. Mucic came into
23 hangar 6?
24 A. I remember that he came once and called the Djordjic
25 brothers from the door, Momcilo and Dobroslav and he
1 took them out and they spent some time outside, about 30
2 minutes, right next to number 6, and Mucic, in an
3 unusually loud voice, spoke to the Djordjic brothers.
4 Q. Could you hear what he said?
5 A. There were some jokes, it was a chat, but I know that
6 Mr. Mucic said on that occasion, "you are all shit, you
7 and us and there will be no order until the Germans come
8 here, the Schwarber".
9 Q. So Mr. R, you said you -- when did you leave Celebici
11 A. I was transferred from the Celebici camp to another camp
12 in Konjic in the Musala sports hall on 31st August 1992.
13 Q. Who called you out of the hangar when you left Celebici?
14 A. Mr. Delic called me out. He came with a list and he
15 ordered that a box of ammunition be brought for him to
16 sit on, he sat near the door, and he called out the
17 names of 30 prisoners who needed to be transferred from
18 number 6 to Konjic.
19 Q. Was there a time when you were released from any kind of
21 A. If I may, without overstepping the bounds of my
22 testimony, I stayed in Konjic until 5th November, and
23 then I was taken to another camp in Trnovo, which was
24 not registered by any international organisation, not
25 even the International Red Cross, and I was kept there
1 from 5th November until 6th January 1993, waiting to be
3 Q. Did you finally receive any release document or not?
4 A. No, I did not receive absolutely any document, either
5 with any charges against me, nor any release document,
6 nor any other paper except the number under which I was
7 registered by the International Red Cross.
8 MR. TURONE: Thank you very much, Mr. R. Your Honour, my
9 examination-in-chief is finished, thank you.
10 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Any cross-examination of this witness?
11 MR. O'SULLIVAN: Yes, your Honours. We will proceed in this
12 way; first counsel for Mr. Landzo, second counsel for
13 Mr. Mucic, third counsel for Mr. Delic and fourth counsel
14 for Mr. Delalic.
15 MR. ACKERMAN: Good afternoon, your Honours. May I proceed,
17 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Yes, you may.
18 Cross-examined by MR. ACKERMAN
19 Q. Thank you, your Honour.
20 Good afternoon, Mr. R.
21 A. Good afternoon, sir.
22 Q. My name is John Ackerman. I will have a number of
23 questions to ask you. I am going to try to phrase my
24 questions in such a way that you can answer them
25 easily. In many cases, the only answer that would be
1 required would be a yes or a no. There may be occasions
2 when I will ask you to explain things and then I would
3 expect you to do so, but could you please listen to my
4 questions and only answer the question that I ask you.
5 A. Yes, only I think that in the case of some questions it
6 is not possible to answer with yes and no, and I hope
7 you will have enough patience and time to hear me out.
8 Q. That is what I just suggested to you. If I ask you for
9 an explanation then certainly you may explain, but
10 I think you will find that a number of the questions are
11 very simple and can be answered very simply with a yes
12 or no, okay?
13 A. Yes, fine.
14 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honour, I hate to do this, but I need to
15 do it, as I begin this testimony. I need to ask that
16 the blinds be lowered and that we go into private
17 session so that this witness can come around in front of
18 the model.
19 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Let us get into closed session.
20 (In closed session)
13 Page 7816 redacted - in closed session
13 Page 7817 redacted - in closed session
17 (In open session)
18 MR. ACKERMAN: Should I go ahead, your Honour?
19 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Yes.
20 MR. ACKERMAN: Mr. R, you have asked to make an observation
21 about this model and I am going to give you an
22 opportunity to do that. I am going to ask you some
23 questions however and if I fail to give you an
24 opportunity to make your observation please tell me and
25 I will do that --
1 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Let him start with his observation.
2 MR. ACKERMAN: Okay, okay start with your observation. Go
4 A. Thank you. On this model there is a machine-gun nest
5 that is missing that was in front of number 6 in the
6 latter part of my stay in Celebici, towards the very
7 end, and it was just in front of the door of the hangar,
8 just in front of me now, in front of the hangar, on the
9 garage, on the concrete plateau in front. There was a
10 machine-gun that was facing the door and there was
11 another one in this trench over here above number 6.
12 I do not see that on this model, this machine-gun that
13 was pointing at the door of the hangar. Thank you.
14 Q. All right. As a matter of fact, this model is extremely
15 inaccurate in a number of other ways also, is it not?
16 A. I notice that. I do not know about any other
18 Q. For instance, it has the railroad in exactly the wrong
19 place. It shows the railroad coming in from the wrong
20 side of the camp, does it not?
21 A. What do you mean, the wrong side? I do not understand.
22 What do you mean, "from the wrong side"?
23 Q. Did not the railroad come into the camp from down here
24 on the end that would be on your left, near this red
25 building, the command building down here on the
1 left-hand side? Is that not where the railroad came in?
2 A. You are thinking over there? If I look at it this way,
3 that is how it was. It entered from this side as it is
4 shown on the model.
5 Q. Do you know what I am talking about when I refer to the
6 gas station?
7 A. I know that the gas station existed and that people were
8 put in manholes there to choke, but I was not put there,
9 so I did not mention them.
10 Q. But my question is, do you recognise, looking at the
11 model, which building on there represents the gas
13 A. As I said, I was not placed in those manholes, but
14 I assume it was this building in front of me. I was not
15 taken to that gas station.
16 Q. That building is also in the wrong place on that model,
17 is it not? That is not where it is actually located.
18 A. I must repeat again, I was not taken to those manholes,
19 I was not taken to that gas station. I apologise.
20 Q. You spent some time in tunnel 9, and it is certainly
21 shown on this model in the wrong place, is it not?
22 A. I think it is in the right position.
23 Q. Do you know what building I would be referring to if
24 I referred to the command building?
25 A. Yes, I do.
1 Q. It is in the wrong place on this model, is it not?
2 A. No, it is in the right place.
3 Q. All right, I would like to, with the usher's assistance,
4 ask that this document be shown to you. I have three
5 copies for the judges and one to be marked and shown to
6 the witness. (Handed). For the Prosecutor, it is a
7 drawing that was furnished to us by your office
8 represented to have been made by this witness. Please
9 put it on the ELMO for me, will you?
10 THE REGISTRAR: The document is marked D29/4.
11 MR. ACKERMAN: Thank you very much. First of all, my
12 question is: do you recognise that document?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. That was a drawing that was made by you, was it not?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Can you tell us approximately when that drawing was made
17 by you?
18 A. In October or November 1995.
19 Q. That document shows the railroad coming into the camp
20 right next to the command building, as opposed to what
21 is shown on the model in front of you, does it not?
22 A. Yes, there is a difference, but the model is correct, my
23 drawing is not precise.
24 Q. That drawing shows the gas station sitting next to and
25 in front of tunnel 9, as opposed to where it appears on
1 the model, does it not?
2 A. Yes, as I was saying, I was not taken to the gas
4 Q. One might wonder, if you were not ever taken to the gas
5 station, why you felt it necessary to include it in your
6 drawing. If you did not know anything about it, why did
7 you put it on there?
8 A. Because some 20 or so men who were brought from Brdjani
9 were being choked in the manholes of the gas station and
10 they -- when they appeared, they had almost suffocated,
11 and trying to put all those facts in one place, I put in
12 the gas station, but obviously in the wrong position.
13 Q. So you were just guessing and making up the position of
14 the gas station since you knew nothing about it,
16 A. I knew of the men who were taken there and I knew the
17 stories they told, that they were kept there up to nine
18 hours without any air, but as I said, I was not taken
19 there, so I was wrong regarding the location.
20 Q. You are an intelligent man, you must understand that
21 I am not asking you about the men who were taken there,
22 I am asking you why you put it on there if you did not
23 know where it was.
24 A. I have already answered your question, sir.
25 Q. Your answer to my question had to do with men that were
1 taken there. Were you just guessing where it was, were
2 you just trying to make up some evidence, to be helpful,
3 what were you doing when you put it on there not knowing
4 where it was located?
5 A. Because where I was making the statement I was asked to
6 try and reconstruct the places of torture, and at that
7 moment that statement was nothing like the way this
8 testimony is being done, so I tried to put everything
9 down on one piece of paper, but as I said, I was not
10 there at the gas station.
11 Q. Look where you have put the command building. That is
12 not where it appears on the model, is it?
13 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Thank you very much, Mr. Ackerman.
14 I think we should continue tomorrow.
15 MR. ACKERMAN: Thank you.
16 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: I think you will be more comfortable
17 doing it then.
18 (5.30 pm)
19 (Court adjourned until 11.00 am the following day)