Case No.IT-96-21
1 Thursday, 16th October 1997
2 (11.00 am)
3 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Good morning, ladies and gentlemen.
4 Can we have the appearances, please?
5 MR. NIEMANN: If your Honours please, my name is Niemann and
6 I appear with my colleagues Ms. McHenry, Mr. Turone and
7 Mr. Khan for the Prosecution.
8 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Can we have the appearances for the
9 Defence, please?
10 MS. RESIDOVIC: Good morning, your Honours. I am Edina
11 Residovic, appearing on behalf of Mr. Zejnil Delalic,
12 together with my colleague Eugene O'Sullivan, professor
13 from Canada.
14 MR. OLUJIC: Good morning, your Honours, I am Zeljko Olujic,
15 appearing on behalf of Mr. Zdravko Mucic, together with
16 my colleague, my Michael Greaves, attorney from the
17 United Kingdom.
18 MR. KARABDIC: Good morning, your Honours, I am Salih
19 Karabdic, attorney from Sarajevo, appearing on behalf of
20 Mr. Hazim Delic, together with Mr. Thomas Moran, attorney
21 from Houston, Texas.
22 MR. ACKERMAN: Good morning, your Honours, I am John Ackerman
23 and I appear with Cynthia McMurrey for Mr. Esad Landzo.
24 Thank you.
25 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Thank you very much. Kindly bring the
1 witness in.
2 (Witness entered court)
3 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Please remind the witness he is still
4 on his oath.
5 THE REGISTRAR: I should like to remind you, sir, that you
6 are still under oath.
7 A. Yes.
8 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Mr. Ackerman, you can proceed.
9 WITNESS R (continued)
10 Cross-examined by MR. ACKERMAN (continued)
11 Q. Thank you very much, your Honour. Good morning, Mr. R.
12 A. Good morning.
13 Q. I trust you had a quiet and restful evening and that you
14 are refreshed and ready to go forward.
15 A. Yes, having seen Kusterica's film on the disintegration
16 of a country, "There once was a country".
17 Q. So you watched a film last night about Yugoslavia?
18 A. About the dissolution of Yugoslavia from the standpoint
19 of the film director Kusterica, as he saw it.
20 Q. Could I ask the usher to return the exhibit we were
21 using at the close of testimony yesterday back to the
22 ELMO, please. Mr. R, I would like you to just look at
23 the document that has been placed on the ELMO and verify
24 for the record that it was the same drawing we were
25 discussing at the close of your testimony yesterday.
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Let me go back a bit and do a bit of clarification with
3 regard to --
4 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: You can continue.
5 MR. ACKERMAN: Thank you. I want to go back a bit and do a
6 little clarification with regard to this drawing. You
7 drew this yourself, did you not?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. On 19th October 1995, you had a meeting with Mr. Regis
10 Abribat, an investigator from the OTP, is that correct?
11 A. Yes. I do not know the exact date, but I said it was
12 either October or November 1995, I do not know the exact
13 date.
14 Q. Whatever that date was, it was on that date that you
15 gave him this drawing that you had made of the Celebici
16 camp, correct?
17 A. Yes, after I made the statement, the investigator asked
18 if I could make a drawing of Celebici itself, and on the
19 basis of my recollection, I made the drawing. Of course
20 some things differ from reality and from the model, but
21 that is how it is.
22 Q. Did you at that time set out to deliberately make that
23 drawing inaccurate, to try to fool Mr. Abribat or
24 anything?
25 A. No, certainly not.
1 Q. Therefore I take it that you did not tell Mr. Abribat at
2 that time that you had not done a good job and that this
3 was an inaccurate drawing and that he should not rely on
4 it; you did not tell him anything like that, did you?
5 A. I did not tell him, but let me repeat, the statement
6 made under -- those circumstances differ considerably
7 from the circumstances we are talking under today, when
8 Mr. Abribat asked me about the manholes where people were
9 put and suffocated and put in water. I roughly
10 indicated it, but, as I have already said, throughout my
11 stay in the Celebici camp I was never taken to those
12 manholes, nor did I pass by them, so I did not go to
13 that spot where the pump station was, the petrol station
14 was.
15 Q. As far as you were concerned, you intended that
16 Mr. Abribat leave that meeting understanding and
17 believing that you had made as accurate a drawing as
18 your memory would permit at that point; is that not
19 fair?
20 A. I knew that the court would take measures and find ways
21 to make a true model. What I drew differs from the
22 model, so this should be attributed to my own bad
23 recollection.
24 Q. I am going to ask you the question again and ask you to
25 listen very carefully and see if you can answer the
1 question that I ask. You intended for Mr. Abribat to
2 leave that meeting believing that you had given him as
3 accurate a drawing as your memory at that time would
4 permit; is that a fair statement?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Going back to this drawing, I would like you to look
7 where on the drawing you have placed building number
8 22. Do you see that?
9 A. I do.
10 Q. Would you say that the model sitting in front of you is
11 inaccurate with the place where it places building 22?
12 A. No, the model is quite accurate. It is the drawing that
13 is inaccurate.
14 Q. Let me ask you again about the gas station, and
15 understand that I am asking you about the gas station,
16 not about any manholes. I have not asked you any
17 questions about manholes and do not intend to. You told
18 us yesterday that the gas station is improperly placed
19 on your drawing because you really did not have any
20 opportunity to see that gas station, that you just
21 basically heard about it from others; is that a fair
22 statement?
23 A. Yes, that is so.
24 Q. You also told us yesterday that when you were in hangar
25 number 6 that you were frequently taken out or allowed
1 to go out to a latrine behind hangar number 6, early in
2 your experience with four or five other people and then
3 in the larger groups at a later time. That is true, is
4 it not?
5 A. I think that that was a misinterpretation because I did
6 not say I went out frequently, but very rarely. If
7 I spent 99 days in the camp and mentioned two or three
8 times going out, I do not think one can describe it as
9 being frequent.
10 Q. I thought you had told us that there was a daily routine
11 where groups of you were taken out and given a certain
12 amount of time to use the latrine and then brought back
13 in?
14 A. Yes, as far as the groups are concerned. I said it
15 happened twice a day, in the morning about 7, 8 or 9,
16 depending on when Mr. Delic arrived, and in the
17 afternoon; twice during the day, 40 seconds each time.
18 I do not know whether that is frequent or infrequent,
19 twice a day, 40 seconds each time.
20 Q. But before those larger groups, you went out in smaller
21 groups and had more time to spend at the latrine,
22 correct?
23 A. That was at the beginning, as I said, maybe in the month
24 of June. Later on, all that was prohibited.
25 Q. Can you tell us how many days it was that you were in
1 hangar number 6?
2 A. I spent somewhere from the beginning of June, as I said
3 yesterday, that was one week after my arrest, and that
4 was on 26th May, so that could have been the beginning
5 of June, until 31st August 1992.
6 Q. So roughly three months, yes?
7 A. Yes, June, July and August.
8 Q. That is roughly 90 days, give or take a few days.
9 A. Plus the time spent in the tunnel.
10 Q. I am only talking about hangar 6 now. My question is
11 directed to the time you were there, and it was roughly
12 90 days then that you were confined in hangar number 6?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. If you went out to that latrine two times a day, then
15 over a 90 day period you would have been out at that
16 latrine perhaps 180 times.
17 A. What do you mean when you say "there"? What area are
18 you referring to when you say "there"?
19 Q. I was talking about the latrine area behind hangar
20 number 6. If you went out there twice a day for 90
21 days, that would mean you went to that latrine at least
22 180 times.
23 A. Let me repeat again what I have already said. If
24 necessary, I can show you on the model where we went to
25 relieve ourselves. As I said yesterday, according to a
1 procedure that was established and invented by Mr. Delic,
2 there would be 50 of us standing in line to urinate and
3 Mr. Delic was walking behind us all the time, flourishing
4 a baseball bat, and we were waiting to get a blow rather
5 than to do our business. I do not know how I could look
6 around to see where is the pump, where is the hangar
7 where the other people are, all this in 40 seconds.
8 Q. I will ask you the question again. I thought we had
9 made an agreement yesterday that you would listen to my
10 question and attempt to answer it. The only question
11 that I asked you was, if you were in that hangar 90 days
12 and went out to the latrine twice a day, you probably
13 went out to that latrine about 180 times; do you agree
14 with that or not?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. How is it that in 180 times standing out there at that
17 latrine you failed to notice that rather large gas
18 station right across the street?
19 A. Do you think we were free to look around to see where
20 things where, where people were? As I said, we were in
21 line with our heads bowed, without the right to turn
22 around. There was Mr. Delic behind us, who was always
23 there with a baseball bat in his hand.
24 Q. If you were never free to look around and get any idea
25 of what the camp looked like, why did you make a drawing
1 for Mr. Abribat of what the camp looked like? Why did
2 you not just tell Mr. Abribat you had no idea because you
3 could not ever look around?
4 A. Because I tried as far as was possible in answer to the
5 gentleman's question, I do not remember his name, the
6 investigator's question, to give some kind of a rough
7 outline of the camp where we were detained. As you see
8 from the drawing itself, the position of building number
9 6 and the machine-gun nests were accurately drawn. Those
10 were the things that I could see.
11 Q. If you will look at that drawing, you will notice that a
12 number of notations on there are written in English. Is
13 that your writing or someone else's?
14 A. It is my handwriting.
15 Q. Do you read and write English?
16 A. Is that important for the investigation in this moment?
17 Q. The way it works here is I ask the questions and you
18 give the answers. My question is: do you read and write
19 English?
20 A. At this point in time, yes; until the beginning of the
21 war, no.
22 Q. Again, if you will look at your drawing, on the
23 right-hand side, near what would be the entrance to the
24 camp, you have drawn a couple of buildings up above the
25 road; do you see the buildings I am referring to?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Did the person who made this model in front of you fail
3 to include those buildings in the model?
4 A. No.
5 Q. Having told us that this drawing was your best
6 recollection at the time of the layout of the camp, how
7 is it you are able today to tell us that the model
8 sitting in front of you is accurate? How do you know
9 that it is accurate?
10 A. Because the model is in three dimensions and it gives a
11 much better portrayal of the real situation than an
12 ordinary drawing. This three dimensional model somehow
13 refreshes one's memory regarding details forgotten.
14 Q. So it is your position that when you saw the model it
15 refreshed your memory and you remembered that the model
16 is correct and your drawing is wrong?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Did anybody tell you that this model was accurate?
19 A. No, I saw the model for the first time when I sat at
20 this table.
21 Q. I guess what I am wondering is if your best memory of
22 Celebici camp is what was reflected in your drawing, how
23 on earth can you tell us with that same memory that the
24 model in front of you is accurate?
25 MR. TURONE: May I object to Defence lawyer's continuing on
1 this line of questions. The question was asked and
2 answered already. The witness said already that the
3 drawing he did on request of the OTP was imprecise and
4 I think there is nothing else he might answer on this
5 line of questions. I think going on in this line of
6 questions might turn out to be harassment of the
7 witness, your Honour.
8 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: I thought you were merely asking his
9 opinion, you are asking the opinion of the witness. If
10 he gives you his opinion you might accept it.
11 MR. ACKERMAN: Yes, your Honour, that is correct.
12 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Yes, ask him.
13 MR. ACKERMAN: Do you remember the question I asked you or
14 would you like to hear it again?
15 A. Please ask it again, sir.
16 Q. I am not going to be able to give you the same words,
17 but I will do the best I can.
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Back in October 1995 when you drew this map for
20 Mr. Abribat, it was your best memory of the way the camp
21 looked, was it not?
22 A. Yes, but the statement itself was given within a short
23 period of time. The gentleman did not have much time at
24 his disposal, nor did I , for that matter, because I was
25 working. It was all done in haste without giving it any
1 detailed thought, it was done the way it was and it was
2 done inaccurately, so let me repeat for the fifth time
3 that the model is accurate, that the drawing is
4 inaccurate.
5 Q. Let me put it this way. If Mr. Abribat had returned to
6 The Hague and built a nice three dimensional model like
7 the one you see in front of you based upon the drawing
8 you gave him, then I suspect when you saw it you would
9 have told us that was an accurate model; is that a fair
10 statement?
11 MR. TURONE: Your Honour, I object to these hypothetical
12 questions.
13 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: He has told you that --
14 MR. ACKERMAN: I am going to withdraw the question, your
15 Honour. It is not necessary.
16 You see some writing up in the left-hand corner of
17 your drawing; do you see that?
18 A. Yes, though the photocopy is not very clear, so I cannot
19 exactly see what it says.
20 Q. Is that your writing?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Can you read it?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Would you do that for me?
25 A. The word is probably, "handed in to Regis Abribat,
1 investigator of the International Tribunal in The Hague
2 for war criminals committed in the territory of the
3 former Yugoslavia".
4 Q. Then that would be your signature?
5 A. Yes. Just a moment, please, sir. Where do you see my
6 signature?
7 Q. I am not sure I do.
8 MR. TURONE: There is no signature, otherwise we would not
9 allow it to be put on the ELMO.
10 MR. ACKERMAN: It says "Yugoslavia", what I thought was your
11 signature is apparently "Yugoslavia".
12 I want to talk to you about something else now.
13 A. I am at your disposal.
14 Q. You were telling us yesterday about the food that you
15 received in hangar number 6, correct?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. You told us that among the foods that you received, you
18 got soup.
19 A. I said that occasionally, very rarely, we did get soup
20 as well.
21 Q. What you told us about that soup was that when you got
22 it, it was two or three days old.
23 A. Yes, mostly.
24 Q. What special skills or powers do you have that enable
25 you to judge the age of soup?
1 A. It is a very simple power; if you ate that soup and it
2 was a little sour we would get diarrhoea and we could
3 not go out, because Mr. Delic and the other guards would
4 not let us go out, so that is a very simple method to
5 conclude how the soup is old. It is a very simple
6 method.
7 Q. How does that method get you to the precision of two or
8 three days? Why could it not be a week or one day?
9 A. It could have been a week, why not. In any case, it was
10 not soup that was fit for eating. For soup that
11 produces diarrhoea, does it matter whether it is two
12 days old or a week old, especially if you are not given
13 any medical treatment afterwards.
14 Q. No, it really does not matter, except when you tell this
15 court, this Tribunal, that the soup was two or three
16 days old yesterday and then tell us today that it could
17 have been a week old, what that indicates to this
18 Tribunal is you are just guessing about that.
19 A. I do not know, you asked me what my visionary abilities
20 were to tell how old the soup was. I am not a
21 visionary. If I had been a visionary, I would not have
22 ended up in the camp, I would have been somewhere else
23 if I had known what was going to happen.
24 Q. I think you also told us yesterday that, as a general
25 rule, the only food that you would get beyond some
1 occasional soup was five grammes of bread a day.
2 A. I never mentioned five grammes, I just, as far as
3 I remember -- again, to use the same sentence that you
4 used, I will not be able to repeat what I said in the
5 same words -- I said that the bread was made from mouldy
6 flour, so it had a very unpleasant taste.
7 Q. Excuse me. You remember the question that I just asked
8 you?
9 A. You asked me whether I remembered that I said we were
10 given five grammes of bread. I did not say five
11 grammes, so allow me to repeat what I said. It was made
12 from very -- please allow me to finish the answer to
13 your question. Be kind enough to hear me out.
14 Q. When was it that I asked you what the bread was made out
15 of?
16 A. You did not ask me that, but you asked me whether it was
17 correct that I had said that we received five grammes of
18 bread, and I never mentioned yesterday five grammes.
19 I just said that the loaf was divided up into 14, 15,
20 16, 18 pieces. I never mentioned five grammes.
21 Q. But you did tell us yesterday about the quality of that
22 bread, did you not?
23 A. I did yesterday, I started again today and you
24 interrupted me, so I do not know whether you are asking
25 me questions and not allowing me to answer them.
1 Q. Did you feel a need to repeat the quality of that bread
2 today even though not asked about it because you believe
3 that those of us sitting here in the courtroom are not
4 capable of hearing what you are saying and understanding
5 it and that you need to say it over and over?
6 MR. TURONE: I object to this arguing between the Defence
7 lawyer and the witness, your Honour.
8 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honour, this is cross-examination, this
9 is not arguing. One judge once told me on
10 cross-examination you are supposed to argue with the
11 witness. I think it was an appropriate question.
12 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: If the argument is in the nature of a
13 question, then it is acceptable.
14 MR. ACKERMAN: And it was.
15 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: So he can answer it.
16 A. Please repeat your question, sir.
17 MR. ACKERMAN: My question was: do you think those of us here
18 are incapable of hearing and understanding what you are
19 saying so that you have to repeat it over and over, even
20 if not asked?
21 A. No, not at all, sir.
22 Q. Thank you. Since you arrived here in The Hague for the
23 purpose of appearing before this Tribunal, could you
24 tell us with whom you have discussed your memory of what
25 happened at Celebici?
1 A. I discussed it with Mr. Prosecutor.
2 Q. That would be Mr. Turone?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. How much time did you spend discussing it with
5 Mr. Turone?
6 A. I think it was four and a half to five hours.
7 Q. What day would that have been?
8 A. I think this was last Sunday.
9 Q. Have you had any further discussions with Mr. Turone
10 about these matters since that date?
11 A. Yes, I think we continued the following day on Monday,
12 but I am not sure for how long. It was short.
13 Q. How about yesterday evening, did you have any
14 discussions with Mr. Turone yesterday evening about your
15 testimony?
16 A. Yesterday evening?
17 Q. Yes.
18 A. No, not only did I not discuss it with Mr. Turone, but
19 with no one. I just told you how I spent my evening.
20 Q. How about this morning? Did you have any discussion
21 with Mr. Turone this morning about these matters?
22 A. No, I see Mr. Turone for the first time now as I sat down
23 here.
24 Q. How about with Witness J? Did you have discussions with
25 Witness J about your experiences in Celebici since you
1 have been here in The Hague?
2 A. No.
3 Q. How is it that you know who Witness J is if you had not
4 had a discussion with him about his testimony in this
5 case?
6 A. Because I know that there was only one other person who
7 was here during my stay, and I know his identity, I know
8 who he is.
9 Q. Please do not say who he is, okay?
10 A. No, I am not going to.
11 Q. You certainly had meetings with Witness J during the
12 time he was here in The Hague and you were here in
13 The Hague, did you not?
14 A. Yes, we went to dinner together. However, the ladies,
15 that is the staff that is taking care of the security
16 arrangements here, they prevented us from discussing
17 anything relating to the trial and what we discussed was
18 potential business, so our discussions did not relate to
19 the testimony or The Hague. And I have to add that the
20 staff would always stop conversation, saying that this
21 could harm the whole procedure or the whole trial.
22 Q. So if they had to stop conversation, it means there was
23 some going on for them to stop, does it not?
24 A. We would not start, but we would have -- they did it as
25 an introductory remark, not to discuss issues relating
1 to the trial, things that were going on in the
2 courtroom, so this was a warning of sorts, or a caution.
3 Q. I think we might all be somewhat baffled by your
4 statement that they would stop you and say you should
5 not be discussing these matters and then tell us you
6 were not discussing these matters. There would be no
7 occasion for them to stop you if you never had such
8 discussion, would there?
9 A. I think that the way you phrase your question is
10 contradictory in itself. As I said, when we sat down to
11 dinner, we would be told, "please do not discuss matters
12 that transpired in the courtroom today", so we did not.
13 Q. I guess you are telling us they were with you at dinner?
14 A. Yes, the whole time.
15 Q. Were they with you at breakfast yesterday morning?
16 A. Yes, at breakfast, lunch and dinner, if I need to say
17 that, and the entire way from the hotel room to the,
18 whatever I should call it, the dining area or the
19 restaurant.
20 Q. Any time you had occasion to be with Witness J then
21 these persons were present?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Okay. I take it that you take very seriously this
24 appearance before the International Tribunal and your
25 testimony here, do you not?
1 A. How to answer this question? I do not know how you want
2 me to answer it.
3 Q. You do not see it as a situation of great fun and
4 merriment and a situation in which it is irrelevant
5 whether your testimony is accurate or not, do you?
6 A. I am also not sure about this question. Can you clarify
7 it for me, please? Can you simplify it?
8 Q. Sure. You want your testimony before this International
9 Tribunal to be as accurate as you can make it, correct?
10 A. By all means.
11 Q. You agreed with me yesterday that your memory of the
12 events of Celebici was better as one goes back in time,
13 so that fairly immediately after it your memory would
14 have been better than it would be now, five years later,
15 correct?
16 A. I said that that is a normal process, that people
17 forget, but I also said that some events like deaths and
18 beatings, the mistreatments that we were subjected to,
19 have a strong impact, they are significant and those
20 images of death remain there forever.
21 Q. There have been occasions in the past, have there not,
22 when your memory of events was committed to writing?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Being both an intelligent man and a man who is
25 interested in giving accurate testimony before this
1 Tribunal, you carefully reviewed all those prior written
2 representations of your memory of Celebici?
3 A. As far as the first part of your statement is, regarding
4 my intelligence, I would not like to comment on that,
5 but as far as the second part, my answer is yes, with
6 the solemn declaration in front of me, and as far as the
7 third part, I did give written statements. I just want
8 to add regarding this third part and you said that
9 yourself, you cannot repeat the same phrase the same
10 way. If I were able to do that, I would be a computer,
11 not a human being.
12 Q. I think my question was probably hopelessly confusing,
13 let me try it again.
14 A. I gave you a three part answer, so if you want to
15 simplify the question, please go ahead.
16 Q. That is my intent. The major issue I am interested in
17 is, you carefully reviewed all these prior written
18 representations of your memory so that you could be as
19 accurate as possible in front of this Tribunal, correct?
20 A. Here in The Hague, this was fairly superficial, it took
21 about ten minutes. However, I have given multiple
22 statements and maybe they differ based on what the
23 investigators or the people who were asking questions
24 were emphasising, what they wanted to focus on. So it
25 depends on the occasion, whether it was literary or
1 investigative, or whether it was depending on what
2 methods were used for torture or things like that.
3 Q. So is it your position that you have not carefully
4 reviewed prior written statements?
5 A. Not carefully, I said that.
6 Q. Understanding that your prior memory may have been more
7 accurate, you did not think it was important to refresh
8 today's memory with that more accurate memory of the
9 past?
10 A. I think that the question is a bit equivocal. Can you
11 phrase it in simpler terms?
12 Q. First you have told us that your memory was better as we
13 go back in time, and that that memory has been recorded
14 in statements, and then you have told us that in
15 preparation to give accurate testimony to this Tribunal,
16 you did not bother to carefully review those
17 statements. I believe that is your position; am
18 I correct?
19 A. Yes, as I said, the majority of these statements, with
20 the exception of one that I have given to Mr. Regis, were
21 not given for The Hague Tribunal, they were given on
22 different occasions, and at different times, and it is
23 possible that in some parts, they differ from one
24 another. It is probable and it is normal that they
25 should differ, and it is dependent on the purpose of it
1 being given.
2 Q. So did you deliberately put inaccuracies in those
3 statements prior to the one you gave the OTP?
4 MR. TURONE: Objection, your Honour, asked and answered.
5 MR. ACKERMAN: Never been asked, your Honour.
6 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: About statements, is it?
7 MR. ACKERMAN: I am sorry?
8 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: He has never answered, that I hear,
9 deliberately giving wrong answers.
10 MR. ACKERMAN: I have never asked it and he has never
11 answered it.
12 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Yes, you can answer it. Did you
13 deliberately give wrong answers?
14 A. Go ahead, sir, restate your question, please.
15 MR. ACKERMAN: In the statements you did prior to the OTP
16 statement, did you deliberately give wrong information
17 in those statements?
18 A. No. Could I please ask how you qualify this deliberate
19 wrong testimony, because they were never testimonies,
20 they were not statements given in court, they were given
21 to different either committees or bodies that were
22 collecting evidence or documentation on Celebici and, as
23 I said, it is impossible to give the same exact
24 statement twice. Then we would be machines who repeat
25 the same thing. Then you could just make one recording
1 of it and replay it, you need not have witnesses
2 testifying then.
3 Q. You just told us you had never given a statement to a
4 court before, is that true?
5 A. That is correct, this is my first testimony before a
6 Tribunal, any Tribunal in any country at any time,
7 because my whole life in fact I tried not to be involved
8 in anything that would bring me in conflict with law.
9 Q. Did you not on 2nd March 1994 give a statement to an
10 investigating judge of the District Court in Belgrade?
11 A. That is right, but that was not a trial, this was
12 questioning for their own needs so this was just a
13 meeting with a judge and conversation, similar to what
14 occurred with Mr. Regis.
15 Q. So because this was --
16 A. In other words, this was not a trial, it was gathering
17 of information, and if you consider the statement I gave
18 to Mr. Regis part of a trial, then that other statement
19 was that too.
20 Q. So since this statement to the District Court in
21 Belgrade was not a trial, you did not feel any necessity
22 of making your statement accurate, is that what you are
23 trying to tell us?
24 A. What I want to say is not only was it -- it was not a
25 trial, this was gathering of information, collection of
1 evidence. If what I had given to Mr. Regis was a trial,
2 then that too was a trial; in other words there was a
3 judge who was gathering evidence, and as I said, I have
4 given different statements at different times for
5 different purposes.
6 Q. Okay. You have not answered the question so let me ask
7 it again. Because the statement you made to the
8 District Court in Belgrade was not a trial, did you feel
9 that you had no obligation to tell the truth or to be
10 accurate in your testimony?
11 A. I absolutely said the truth and I was accurate as much
12 as I could be and I was answering the questions asked of
13 me by the judge, which considered legal matters from his
14 point of view on what happened in Celebici.
15 Q. So you were answering those questions to the best of
16 your memory at that time, correct?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. I am sure you will agree with me that when we write down
19 things we want to remember it is very helpful to go back
20 and review them, to refresh our memory?
21 A. Of course.
22 Q. How many written statements have you given regarding
23 your experiences in Celebici? How many times have
24 accounts that you have given been reduced to writing?
25 A. I could not tell exactly, but I think you may have all
1 these statements in front of you and you can compare
2 them. I do not know how many times. There were various
3 occasions at different times, different people.
4 Q. Let me just do that then. I have in my possession a
5 statement dated 18th February 1993, given to the Serbian
6 Counsel Information Centre; do you remember that one?
7 A. As I stated, I remember some of the statements, that is
8 most of the places and most of the statements. Now what
9 is contained within each individual statement is
10 dependent on what people were interested in, the
11 political aspects, the number of victims, the number of
12 murders, even literary aspects.
13 Q. You must think that we are incapable of hearing and
14 understanding your answers because you keep giving the
15 same ones over and over. Let me ask the question
16 again. On 18th February 1993 -- I have a statement that
17 you gave to the Serbian Counsel Information Centre; do
18 you remember giving that statement?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Was that the first statement that you recall giving
21 regarding your experiences in Celebici?
22 A. I do not know if it was the first but since you have all
23 the statements, you can compare them and see if it was
24 the first. I really do not know if it was the first.
25 Q. Why did you make that statement?
1 A. I do not understand the question, "why did I make the
2 statement". How do you mean, "why did I give the
3 statement"?
4 Q. Did someone ask you to do it?
5 A. Yes, it was asked and I accepted it gladly.
6 Q. Do you remember who it was that asked you to do that?
7 A. I do not recall.
8 Q. Where were you, did somebody call you or did somebody
9 come to where you were? How did it happen that you were
10 called upon to make that statement?
11 A. I do not remember the circumstances prior to the giving
12 of the statement.
13 Q. So your memory of what happened four years ago is rather
14 poor, correct?
15 A. I did not consider the giving of the statement very
16 significant and so I did not consider it a very
17 important thing and so my memory of it is not very
18 strong.
19 Q. Let me ask you if you have given so many statements you
20 cannot remember today how many you have given?
21 A. It was not that many statements, but there were multiple
22 statements.
23 Q. How many?
24 A. I do not know, you have them in front of you.
25 Q. Do you believe that I have all of them?
1 A. I believe you do have, why not? They are no secret,
2 they were made publicly.
3 Q. You believe you made more than five statements?
4 A. I could not answer that question, I do not know.
5 Q. Do you believe you made more than four?
6 A. You are repeating the same, five, four, three, six.
7 Q. So as you sit there now, you just cannot remember how
8 many statements you have given, is that a fair
9 statement?
10 MR. TURONE: Objection, asked and answered many times
11 already, thank you.
12 MR. ACKERMAN: I believe it has been.
13 If I were to tell you that I have in front of me
14 six statements, would you then agree that you have given
15 six statements?
16 A. I think that this question was already answered and that
17 I answered it. I do not know the exact number of
18 answers, I would have to sit down and take a piece of
19 paper and try to figure out when I have given all the
20 statements. That would take a lot of time.
21 MR. TURONE: Your Honour, I object also to this way of
22 questioning about the number of statements Mr. Ackerman
23 might have in front of him.
24 MR. ACKERMAN: You gave a statement to the District Court in
25 Belgrade on 2nd March 1994; you remember that one?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Why did you give that statement?
3 A. I gave that statement because at that time there was
4 talk that sooner or later there will be a trial for the
5 murders in Celebici, either at national level or another
6 one, and then I was invited to give a statement to the
7 judge. I do not know his name, but I think you have it
8 in front of you. This was also as gathering of
9 material, not in the form of a trial.
10 Q. Who requested that you make that statement?
11 A. It was requested of me by that court.
12 Q. So the court contacted you and asked you to come and
13 give a statement?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. I want to go back for just a moment to your statement to
16 the Serbian Counsel Information Centre on 18th February
17 1993. Where did you go to make that statement, do you
18 remember?
19 A. I do not remember.
20 Q. Can you tell us what the Serbian Counsel Information
21 Centre is?
22 A. I do not know what it is.
23 Q. At the time you went there to make the statement, were
24 there other detainees there who had also been asked to
25 come and make statements?
1 A. There were detainees from other camps, from -- not from
2 Celebici. There were detainees from Mostar and I think
3 from somewhere in Posavina.
4 Q. So there were no other Celebici detainees at the time
5 you made that statement?
6 A. At that time, no, perhaps during the day or the previous
7 days or the following days, I do not know about that.
8 Q. You did not see anyone there that had been a Celebici
9 detainee?
10 A. When I was giving my statement, no.
11 Q. During the time you were at the Serbian Counsel
12 Information Centre, any time, the day you were there to
13 give your statement?
14 MR. TURONE: Objection, asked and answered.
15 MR. ACKERMAN: Not precisely yet, your Honour. During any of
16 the time that you were there giving your statement did
17 you see any other Celebici detainee or talk with any
18 other Celebici detainee?
19 A. I did not talk to anyone. Whether any one of the
20 detainees may have come in and passed by, I do not
21 know. I do not remember seeing anyone there.
22 Q. Do you remember seeing Witness J there?
23 A. Let us make sure who Witness J is so as to avoid any
24 confusion.
25 Q. Please do not say the name. A little while ago when
1 I was talking to you about the person you were having
2 dinner and breakfast with you here, you knew that was
3 Witness J; that is the person we are referring to. Was
4 he there the same day you were to give a statement to
5 the Serbian Counsel Information Centre?
6 A. It may have been that same day, but at that moment,
7 I was the only one making a statement and no one else.
8 Q. The day you went to the District Court in Belgrade, on
9 2nd March 1994, were there other Celebici detainees
10 there at that time to also give statements that day?
11 A. I think not.
12 Q. You also gave a statement that we have discussed a
13 little bit to Mr. Regis Abribat of the Office of the
14 Prosecutor on 19th October 1995; that is correct, is it
15 not?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. How was it you happened to give that statement?
18 A. Certain people called me up by phone, saying that two
19 gentlemen would be coming to that town, gentlemen who
20 were collecting evidence for the trial in The Hague, and
21 that I should come and make a statement as one of the
22 detainees of the Celebici camp.
23 Q. So that is how it came about and you did in fact give
24 Mr. Regis Abribat a statement; correct?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. Mr. Abribat was careful to make certain that that
2 statement was translated to you in Serbo-Croatian so
3 there was no question about whether you understood what
4 you were saying and believed what you were saying?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Let me go back to kind of where we began. In your
7 review of -- I want to ask you a different question.
8 I have now talked with you about three
9 statements. Do you, as you sit here today, remember any
10 other statements that you have given with regard to your
11 Celebici experiences?
12 A. I do remember some statements.
13 Q. Can you tell us what those statements were and to whom
14 they were given?
15 A. Those statements were given on different occasions and
16 to different commissions that were collecting different
17 data; in the case of The Hague Tribunal, to Mr. Regis.
18 Q. You may have misunderstood my question. My question is:
19 other than the three statements that I have discussed
20 with you, where else did you make statements regarding
21 your experiences in Celebici?
22 A. As I was saying, I cannot exactly recall the names of
23 those organisations, because there were quite a number
24 of them. Some were private, some were state and
25 non-governmental that wanted to learn the truth or at
1 least some of the facts regarding what had happened at
2 the Celebici camp.
3 Q. Let us see if you can remember one of them. Just tell
4 me one.
5 A. Yes, I remember a statement I made to the Serbian
6 Information Centre or the Information Centre of the
7 Serbian Assembly or SABOR. I do not recall the exact
8 name of the institution.
9 Q. That would be different from the one we have already
10 talked about of 18th February 1993?
11 A. I think it is not.
12 Q. Okay, let us try again. Tell me the name of one
13 statement that you have given that we have not talked
14 about today.
15 A. I have already told you.
16 Q. Beyond the three that we have discussed today, can you
17 tell me one time that you gave a statement to someone
18 else and who that was. That is what I am trying to find
19 out.
20 A. I cannot remember, I cannot tell you.
21 Q. You suggested in some of your prior answers that you may
22 have given some statements for literary purposes. Does
23 that help you remember?
24 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: I think it is better to put the
25 question straight to him, what you want him to answer.
1 This type of roving question does not get one anywhere.
2 MR. ACKERMAN: Did you give any statements to anyone for
3 literary purposes?
4 A. I do not know how to explain that, "for literary
5 purposes". Could you clarify that a little bit? What
6 do you mean when you say "a statement for literary
7 purposes"? Could you simplify the question a little?
8 Q. I am basically quoting an answer you gave to an earlier
9 question about the accuracy of your statements. You
10 said they were given for different purposes, some of
11 them literary. Let me ask you what you meant when you
12 said that.
13 A. Those were not statements, in the sense of any written
14 texts. Those were rather conversations with people,
15 literary people, men of letters, who wanted to hear
16 about those experiences, and to have them in mind.
17 Q. Tell us the name, please, of one of those persons?
18 A. I do not know, I cannot remember.
19 Q. Not even one?
20 MR. TURONE: Objection, your Honour, asked and answered.
21 MR. ACKERMAN: Can you even tell us the name of one of those
22 people that you talked to, even one?
23 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: He said he does not remember.
24 MR. ACKERMAN: All right. Do you know if any of those people
25 have written any papers or books or anything that
1 contained things that you told them?
2 A. I do not know, I could not tell you anything definite
3 about that.
4 Q. Do you recall seeing any written or published works or
5 anything like that that contained your name, your
6 accounts of what went on in Celebici, any such thing?
7 A. I am unable to recall just now of anything like that.
8 Q. You talked about an organisation you gave a statement to
9 that you referred to as "SABOR"; is that correct?
10 A. Yes, something like that. Whether it is the Serbian
11 SABOR's Information Centre or the other way, I am not
12 quite sure of the title of that institution.
13 Q. That institution is not located in Serbia, is it?
14 A. It is in Serbia.
15 Q. Does the name Strahinja Zivak mean anything to you?
16 A. That man, before the war in Konjic, was either director
17 or one of the executives of the post in Konjic, and
18 I know that just before the war he was wounding in an
19 accident, driven to Sarajevo, then the war broke out and
20 Celebici occurred and what happened that Strahinja
21 Zivak, I do not know, whether he survived or not, I do
22 not know.
23 Q. When you had your meetings with Mr. Turone with regard to
24 your testimony before this Tribunal, he showed you and
25 gave you an opportunity to review the three statements
1 that we have talked about, the Serbian Counsel
2 Information Centre, District Court Belgrade and OTP;
3 correct?
4 A. I said very superficially, and without entering into the
5 details. When I asked whether I could use them to
6 refresh my memory or to read them more carefully, but
7 Mr. Turone said that was not necessary, that it is
8 sufficient to present what one remembers and that that
9 would be quite sufficient considering everything that
10 had happened in Celebici.
11 Q. Were you ever a member of the SDS?
12 A. Yes, for a short time, just before the outbreak of the
13 war.
14 Q. Did you hold any positions of authority with the SDS?
15 A. No, none.
16 Q. Prior to mid May 1992, you, of course, were aware of the
17 events that were going on around you in Bosnia and
18 Croatia, were you not?
19 A. One might say yes and no. I was aware and I was not
20 aware. If I had been fully aware, I would not have got
21 to Celebici, but I would have been in a territory far
22 beyond the one where all this happened.
23 Q. You knew that there were attacks by Serbian forces on a
24 number of villages in Bosnia prior to May 1992; you knew
25 that, did you not?
1 A. As far as one could learn from the media, television and
2 radio.
3 Q. The television and radio was what? Did you get
4 television from Belgrade or television from Sarajevo?
5 Where were you getting television from?
6 A. Both, we were able to watch several programmes, and a
7 third.
8 Q. You watched the station from Belgrade, that was during
9 that time under the control of Slobodan Milosevic?
10 A. I do not know under whose control Television Belgrade
11 was; nor do I know under whose control the various
12 television stations are today, but we watch reports from
13 both sides.
14 Q. Did you ever get the impression, as you were watching
15 the television from Belgrade, that you were being
16 subjected to propaganda?
17 A. No, I remember the shots from Kupres, beheaded people,
18 bodies torn apart. Why is that propaganda if people
19 were killed, if people were murdered, unless you think
20 that one type of people should get killed and another
21 sort should not. I do not see why one could describe as
22 propaganda the shots of dismembered human bodies. If it
23 is a human body then whoever did it is a criminal,
24 whatever side he belongs to, whatever race and whatever
25 religion.
1 Q. Do you have any notion as you sit there today how many
2 Muslims were slaughtered by the Serbian forces during
3 the war in Bosnia?
4 MR. TURONE: I object to the relevancy, your Honour.
5 A. I do not know and I do not think the majority of us here
6 can know that.
7 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Thank you very much.
8 MR. ACKERMAN: At the time in early 1992, were you in
9 agreement with Mr. Milosevic's plan for a greater Serbia?
10 A. I did not know anything about that plan, nor did I agree
11 with it, nor do I agree with any forcible reshaping of
12 anything that already existed, if it can done by
13 agreement. I was naive enough to believe that this
14 could be done by peaceful means, and naive enough to be
15 arrested and taken to the Celebici camp.
16 Q. So I take it from that answer that you think ethnic
17 cleansing is not a good idea?
18 A. Of course it is not a good idea, and any problems that
19 exist can be resolved at a negotiating table by
20 agreement, if there is goodwill.
21 Q. When you acquired your M48 weapon in Bradina, did you
22 know at that time that the possession of such a weapon
23 was against the law?
24 A. Yes, I did, but already on 12th May there was an attack
25 on Bradina, so Bradina was not attacking anyone at the
1 time. It would be stupid for Bradina to try to attack
2 at least 40 Muslim villages in the surroundings which
3 had at least as many inhabitants as Bradina each, so
4 this was a mere attempt to protect what one might call
5 one's very life and property.
6 Q. You knew at that time in May, talking basically mid May
7 1992, you knew at that time, did you not, that Sarajevo
8 was being shelled and was under siege?
9 A. You are asking for mid May?
10 Q. Yes.
11 A. I did not know that, because the electricity and the
12 telephone lines were down already in Bradina.
13 Q. You knew prior to that time the shelling had started in
14 Sarajevo and Sarajevo had been placed under siege. It
15 was a fact that was known to you by mid May 1992, was it
16 not?
17 A. Yes, I know there were roadblocks in April, but what
18 happened later in May, we were cut off from the world in
19 every respect.
20 Q. You also know that the main road, the main
21 transportation artery from Sarajevo to Mostar and the
22 Adriatic passed through Bradina; correct?
23 A. Yes, probably. I knew that.
24 Q. Including the railroad, correct?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. It would have been of great assistance to the Serb
2 forces who had Sarajevo under siege to be able to block
3 that road and cut it off so that supplies could not
4 reach Sarajevo; strategically that would have been a
5 good idea militarily, would it not?
6 MR. TURONE: I object to this question. The witness is not a
7 military expert.
8 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: It is easy for him to say that he does
9 not know, it is very easy. He can answer that question,
10 I do not see -- you can answer that question.
11 A. I do not know what to answer. What do I have to
12 answer?
13 MR. ACKERMAN: You knew that Bradina being on that main
14 thoroughfare between Sarajevo and the Adriatic, it would
15 be a good place because of its tunnels to shut off
16 access to Sarajevo and assist in the siege of Sarajevo,
17 assist the Serbian forces in the siege of Sarajevo; you
18 knew that, did you not?
19 A. From the strategic point of view, that would be normal,
20 but if we are talking about blowing up the tunnel, I can
21 tell you who did it and when, if you are interested in
22 that. It was an interruption, a breaking off of
23 communication between Bradina and the rest of the
24 world. We would not mine ourselves and shut ourselves
25 to the world. There were forces other than us who did
1 that.
2 Q. Let me ask you this: were you present so that you could
3 observe the blowing up of the tunnels at Bradina? Were
4 you there?
5 A. I was in Bradina when a gentleman came for some kind of
6 pretended negotiations, Mr. Musinovic Miralem. He was
7 sitting in Pero Mrkajic's cafe with some kind of
8 representatives of the village. I was not with them at
9 the table but I was in the cafe when they were
10 discussing the possibility of a joint solution.
11 Q. My question is: were you at the tunnels when they were
12 blown up?
13 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: You see when you tease, you have
14 problems. Your questions are teasing.
15 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honour, my only question was, was he was
16 at the tunnels when they were blown up, that is the
17 question I asked.
18 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: He is telling you how he got to know
19 about it.
20 MR. ACKERMAN: He is telling me how to make a watch, and I
21 asked him what time it was.
22 A. And where it was.
23 MR. ACKERMAN: Let me ask you again, were you at the tunnels
24 in Bradina when they were blown up?
25 A. I was not at the tunnels, but I was at the cafe. But
1 the explosion was so strong that the house on the
2 Bradina side of the tunnel, Dordic's house, was left
3 roofless and many other houses in Zukici, their roofs or
4 windows were blown up.
5 Q. It makes sense in view of what we have been discussing
6 that it would have been important to the government of
7 Bosnia-Herzegovina at that time to relieve the siege of
8 Sarajevo, to keep that road from Sarajevo to the
9 Adriatic open; would it not?
10 A. I do not know, sir, what the government in Sarajevo
11 wanted. I was not a member of any government in
12 Sarajevo or outside it, and I do not know what which
13 government wanted. I know what happened to me in
14 Celebici and that is what I am talking about and not
15 about any assumptions of a political or any other
16 nature.
17 Q. During the battle for Bradina, I think you have told us
18 that you were located at the railway station; correct?
19 A. Yes, in the direction of the railway station.
20 Q. What you told us yesterday was that in the area you were
21 in, there was no exchange of gunfire.
22 A. Virtually, no. Behind was the village of Zukici, and
23 from that side, there was hardly any exchange of fire.
24 Q. There was exchange of gunfire in -- to some extent there
25 and to a larger extent in other places, correct?
1 A. I do not know, what do you mean an exchange of fire to
2 some extent; could you clarify that, please?
3 Q. I think you said just before I asked you that question
4 that around Zukici there was very little exchange of
5 gunfire; almost non-existent, I think may have been your
6 words.
7 A. Yes, I still stand by that statement.
8 Q. That means there was some exchange of gunfire there and
9 the other question that I want you to answer is; are you
10 suggesting by that there was a greater exchange of
11 gunfire in other parts of Bradina?
12 A. Yes, from the direction of Repovci there was far more
13 shooting, and also Bradina was shelled from Repovci with
14 various shells and grenades which fell all over the
15 village, especially the centre of the village where the
16 cafes are, the school, the butcher's shop, the
17 infirmary.
18 Q. During that time, you were not a member of any organised
19 military group, were you?
20 A. No, no organised military group. What do you mean, do
21 you mean an army? What is an "organised military
22 group", so that I can answer your question with
23 precision?
24 Q. Were you in an organisation that had commanders that
25 were giving you orders? Did you have uniforms, things
1 of that nature?
2 A. None of us had any uniforms, nor did we belong to any
3 army. These were just village guards that existed
4 virtually everywhere for the security and the protection
5 of the inhabitants, so we did not have uniforms. None
6 of us had uniforms of any kind.
7 Q. I now want to take you to that period of time
8 immediately after you surrendered and were taken into
9 custody in Bradina, and the first question I want to ask
10 you about that is: fairly soon following that surrender,
11 you were beaten by the soldiers who took you into
12 custody, were you not?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. I think what you have told us is that in the process of
15 loading you on to a truck there was a gauntlet that you
16 had to go through, soldiers on both sides, beating you
17 with chains, boards, weapons and other things?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. You were beaten pretty severely at that time?
20 A. I do not know what is "severely" according to your
21 judgement, so it is rather difficult to answer when you
22 talk about severe beatings, or a serious beating.
23 I cannot see that any beating is not serious.
24 Q. I am willing to accept whatever definition you had in
25 mind of a severe beating when you spoke to us yesterday
1 about severe beatings. At that occasion, when you were
2 being loaded on to the truck, in the context of your
3 definition of the term "severe", you were beaten
4 severely, were you not?
5 A. Yes. If one faints from the blows, I assume then one
6 can only call it a severe beating.
7 Q. You were bleeding?
8 A. In Bradina, no. In Celebici, yes.
9 Q. You said in one of the statements that in the process of
10 going through that gauntlet you were hit on the head and
11 that you were bleeding from the head and you still have
12 a mark on your head from that beating. Was that
13 inaccurate, when you said that in one of your
14 statements?
15 A. I said yesterday that the beating that provoked the
16 injury under which I have a scar was in Celebici at the
17 entrance in front of the tunnel.
18 Q. Yes, I understand that that is what you said yesterday.
19 I am not asking you what you said yesterday, I am asking
20 you if you said in one of your statements that at the
21 time you were being loaded on the truck you were hit in
22 the head and you were bleeding and that you still have a
23 mark on your head from that blow. If you said that
24 happened in one of your statements at the truck in
25 Bradina, is it your position now that that was an
1 inaccuracy in your statement?
2 A. I do not know what was written down in this statement.
3 We all passed through the gauntlet, we all got beaten,
4 behind our heads, we all got beaten and they said, "do
5 not look around, do not mention names", and we were
6 beaten with anything that could bring about an injury.
7 Q. You do not know what is written down in the statement
8 because you were not given a full and fair opportunity
9 to review your statements; is that a fair statement?
10 MR. TURONE: May I object to this way of questioning? If the
11 Defence lawyer has some particular point of the
12 statement which he considers in contradiction, he should
13 more clearly formulate his question, please.
14 MR. ACKERMAN: The objection seems to be unrelated to my
15 question. My question, your Honour, was: the reason you
16 do not recall what you said in your statement was
17 because you were not given a full and fair opportunity
18 to review your statement, is that correct? I am not
19 referring to any particular part of the statement, I am
20 referring generally to his statements. That is my
21 question.
22 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: You are asking him whether he could not
23 recall it because he did not review his statement?
24 MR. ACKERMAN: Yes.
25 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: I do not think that is a fair question
1 to anybody, "because you did not review the statement
2 you cannot recall it".
3 MR. ACKERMAN: The testimony he has given us up to this
4 point, your Honour, is that he was not given an
5 opportunity to fully review his statements by Mr. Turone,
6 that he was told by Mr. Turone that that was not
7 important, so I believe that is a fair question based
8 upon his prior testimony in that regard.
9 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: If there is any problem about his
10 statements you want to confront him with, ask him.
11 MR. ACKERMAN: Okay, I will do that. Throughout your journey
12 to Celebici in that truck, you were beaten throughout
13 that journey also, were you not?
14 A. Yes, throughout the drive to Celebici, but it was not on
15 the road, it was on the truck.
16 Q. Those beatings were administered by the soldiers who had
17 taken you into custody at Bradina?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. One of the instruments that was used to beat you during
20 that journey was what I believe you have described as a
21 "thick iron bar", correct?
22 A. Yes, it was a metal bar, I do not know if it was made of
23 aluminium or steel, that I do not know, but it was a
24 metal bar.
25 Q. Would you suggest -- let me just ask you this: would you
1 agree with me that you said in your statement to the
2 Serbian Counsel Information Centre that that bar was a
3 thick iron bar? Could you have said that?
4 A. I do not know whether I said it was iron or metal but it
5 was made of metal. Iron is also metal, based on my
6 knowledge from the chemistry classes from school, so
7 iron is also metal.
8 Q. Let me read to you from your statement to the Serbian
9 Counsel Information Centre, page 1:
10 "One of the guards in the truck had a thick iron
11 bar with which he beat us as we lay on the floor of the
12 truck, one on top of the other. It was night-time and we
13 did not know where they were taking us."
14 That is the truth, is it not?
15 A. Yes, correct.
16 Q. Thank you. When you finally arrived in Celebici, as you
17 were getting out of the truck, you were knocked
18 unconscious, were you not?
19 A. Yes, at that point, two guards were taking one person
20 after another and would hit each person in the back of
21 the head, so when I fell down on this asphalt, I just
22 heard something and I was semiconscious. If you had
23 received a blow in the back of your head, you are dazed,
24 semiconscious.
25 Q. Then you were all lined up against the wall?
1 A. As I said, we had to take off our clothes except for our
2 underwear, so if you had pants or jackets on or shoes,
3 they paid special attention to the laces and belts and
4 so all this was thrown on a heap in front of the
5 tunnel. Then the beating against the wall ensued.
6 Q. After you were lined up against the wall, you were
7 beaten for some time by the soldiers then, were you not?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. These were the same soldiers who had brought you there
10 in the truck?
11 A. I cannot say if it were the same soldiers who had
12 brought us in the truck or the soldiers who were waiting
13 for us. As I said, I was semiconscious, my hands were
14 behind my head and they were giving orders, "do not look
15 around, do not mention any names".
16 Just one correction, we were not lined up all
17 against the wall. One would be thrown off the truck and
18 then beaten and then taken into the tunnel, not all of
19 us lined up one next to another.
20 Q. All right. So for you personally, I know you have told
21 us that and said that those beatings along that wall
22 lasted for five or six hours that night, you personally,
23 when you were put against that wall, for how long a
24 period were you beaten there by the soldiers?
25 A. As a personal or subjective perception, if you are
1 standing against a wall half naked and people around you
2 are kicking you with their boots, with all kinds of
3 objects, your estimation of time is very subjective
4 category.
5 Q. I will accept that. By the time you were finally put
6 into tunnel number 9, you had had several ribs broken?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. You had a cut on top of your head?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. You had a broken nose?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. You had lost consciousness many times?
13 A. Yes, several times.
14 Q. After you were put in tunnel 9 and throughout the period
15 of time you were in tunnel 9, you were not beaten during
16 that period of time before being moved to hangar 6, is
17 that true?
18 A. No, personally I was not.
19 Q. After you got to hangar number 6 and during the whole
20 period of time you were in hangar number 6, you were
21 only beaten two or three times, is that true?
22 A. That is correct, twice personally before the last time
23 after the visit of the Red Cross, so altogether three
24 times.
25 Q. Do you know of an organisation called the Association of
1 Detainees?
2 A. No, I do not.
3 MR. ACKERMAN: Thank you, Mr. R. That is all I have.
4 I appreciate it.
5 A. Thank you too, sir.
6 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Thank you very much. Any other
7 cross-examination?
8 MR. OLUJIC: With your permission, your Honours, it is my
9 turn now.
10 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Thank you.
11 Cross-examined by MR. OLUJIC
12 Q. Good afternoon, Mr. R.
13 A. Good afternoon, sir.
14 Q. Are you tired already?
15 A. Yes, quite a bit, because if I can say, to keep in mind
16 all this information and all those ugly details, it is
17 exhausting.
18 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Mr. Olujic, I think we will have a
19 respite and break for now and come back after lunch at
20 2.30.
21 (12.45 pm)
22 (Adjourned until 2.30 pm)
23
24
25
1
2 (2.30 pm)
3 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honour, the Registry has informed me that
4 the exhibit that I used during the long first part of my
5 cross-examination was not tendered by me and I would
6 like to do that now, the drawing of Celebici camp that
7 was done by Witness R, and so I would therefore like to
8 tender it.
9 MR. TURONE: No objection, your Honour.
10 (Witness entered court)
11 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Kindly remind the witness he is still
12 under oath.
13 THE REGISTRAR: I remind you, sir, that you are still under
14 oath.
15 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: I hope you are refreshed now.
16 A. Yes. Mr. Olujic, you may continue with your
17 cross-examination.
18 MR. OLUJIC: Thank you, your Honours.
19 Good afternoon, Mr. R, once again, my name is
20 Zeljko Olujic, I represent Mr. Zdravko Mucic. Before
21 I put a number of questions to you, I should like to say
22 something that my learned colleague who questioned you
23 before me did not mention --
24 MR. ACKERMAN: Excuse me, we have a technical problem here,
25 Ms McMurrey is not getting any translation, for some
1 reason.
2 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Kindly get the technicians to see to
3 it.
4 THE INTERPRETER: Can you hear the English booth? Can the
5 counsel hear now? Thank you.
6 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: You may continue now. I think
7 everything is all right.
8 MR. OLUJIC: Thank you, your Honours. Mr. R, I wanted to
9 point out that my learned colleague, who talked to you a
10 moment ago, was speaking in English, and there was time
11 for you, until the translation was completed, for you to
12 think and to answer the question, but there was no real
13 opportunity for a proper dialogue, and such a risk does
14 exist between you and me because I am speaking Croatian
15 and you are speaking Serbian. It is a language that we
16 can both understand so that to avoid a dialogue between
17 us we have to wait for my question to be translated, so
18 that I shall slow down, and I would also like you to
19 wait for my question to be translated before you give
20 your answer. Have we understood each other?
21 A. Yes, certainly.
22 Q. Thank you. Mr. R, as an intellectual, you were able to
23 fully gain insight into the events that developed in the
24 spring of 1992, is that correct?
25 A. I can give --
1 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Let me remind the witness, wait for the
2 interpretation to be concluded before you answer,
3 because we too are following. We do not understand two
4 of you.
5 A. Thank you.
6 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: You may continue, please.
7 MR. OLUJIC: Please continue, Mr. R.
8 A. My answer may be ambiguous, both yes and no, in the
9 sense that the country had already been swept by the
10 flame of the war and on the other hand no, because if
11 I had been wise enough, I would not have got to the camp
12 in Celebici.
13 Q. Tell me, have you served in the JNA?
14 A. Yes, certainly, I did my military service in the JNA; if
15 you need the year I can tell you.
16 Q. No, thank you, that is all I needed to know. Mr. R, did
17 you acquire any rank?
18 A. I had the rank of a leader of a group, like any other
19 soldier, squad leader.
20 Q. So you did acquire rank, the lowest rank, but it is a
21 rank?
22 A. It is the rank of a soldier, not an officer rank. It is
23 the lowest rank.
24 Q. During your military service, did you receive an Award
25 of Merit?
1 A. Yes, I did. It was an honour in 1978/79: it also meant
2 15 days less of service, as you are well aware.
3 Q. If I were to tell you that I did not do my military
4 service --
5 A. I am sorry.
6 Q. Which branch of the military did you serve?
7 A. In the artillery.
8 Q. Since you were an exemplary soldier with the lowest
9 rank, which is not an officer rank, in the camp in
10 Celebici, did the behaviour of the guards there remind
11 you of the behaviour of troops, of military men?
12 A. No.
13 Q. Tell me, in the morning, you the prisoners, the
14 detainees, were you expected to appear at a review?
15 A. No.
16 Q. Did the guards have a review of troops?
17 A. I do not know whether they did in the command building,
18 that was beyond my vision.
19 Q. As far as you know?
20 A. I do not know. They may have had it in the command
21 building.
22 Q. Was there a review of troops at dusk?
23 A. No.
24 Q. Was the military music played at night?
25 A. No.
1 Q. Were people in the camp wearing one uniform or several
2 uniforms; in other words, were there different units
3 present?
4 A. I think that at the beginning there were different
5 uniforms, but later on those uniforms became the same.
6 Q. Were there any members of the so-called MUP?
7 A. I do not know who the MUP people were, nor what was the
8 difference between the MUP members, the Green Berets, or
9 whatever they were called, at the beginning.
10 Q. But there were some at the beginning, as far as you
11 know, of course?
12 A. I did not say that, I do not know.
13 Q. While you were in the camp, did the guards sometimes
14 waste ammunition for no purpose?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Tell me, if you know, of course, whether you ever heard
17 any one of the guards being called to task?
18 A. I did not, I just know, as I mentioned yesterday,
19 Mr. Murici, who was an Albanian and who treated us quite
20 humanely for a couple of days, he was removed very soon
21 and this applied to other guards who showed any
22 understanding for the detainees or any compassion. They
23 would be very shortly after that removed.
24 Q. While you were in the camp, Mr. R, did you ever witness
25 any refusal by the guards to carry out orders?
1 A. May I have a moment to think? Yes, I remember once
2 there was such a case in the hangar itself. I only know
3 what I saw with my own eyes within the hangar.
4 Q. Of course. Again, I am asking you to answer to the best
5 of your knowledge; were there any conflicts among the
6 guards at any time?
7 A. I am not aware of that in Celebici. There were other
8 conflicts in Konjic, but we are not talking about those
9 now.
10 Q. Can you tell me please, you are a protected witness, but
11 my question does not affect your protection, it is a
12 general question which I consider to be important. Do
13 you have any permanent source of income?
14 A. Just now, you mean? I do.
15 Q. So your family is taken care of?
16 A. Relatively speaking, yes, considering my condition of
17 health and the general circumstances I am living in, but
18 generally speaking, yes.
19 Q. Mr. R, do you meet in premises or clubs together with
20 former detainees, wherever you are now?
21 A. You mean detainees from Celebici or other camps? I meet
22 only with one person who was in Celebici, because he
23 happens to be in the same town as me, and with other
24 people, mostly people who spent two and more years in
25 Zenica, because I have no other neighbours.
1 Q. During those meetings, do you recount the horrors that
2 you lived through in the camp?
3 A. Sometimes we do, sometimes we do not, it depends on what
4 the subject of the conversation is.
5 Q. What subjects do you talk about? What do they say?
6 A. What do you mean when you say "they"?
7 Q. The people you have contact with who were former
8 detainees.
9 A. They talk about the conditions under which they lived,
10 whether they were beaten, what the food was like,
11 whether they had beds or did not have beds, things like
12 that.
13 Q. After you left the camp, and when you reached where you
14 are living now, did the authorities give you medical
15 aid?
16 A. The authorities did not, but I had to look for it
17 myself, because of the disease that was developing at
18 the time.
19 Q. Mr. R, to judge from your testimony, you suffered very
20 heavy blows on your head, you had a broken rib; have you
21 managed to have all that treated? Have you recovered?
22 A. To some extent, yes, as far as my broken nose and my
23 head. But I still have consequences due to my broken
24 ribs and spinal injuries and very low blood pressure,
25 and also I have problems with my spine that I referred
1 to yesterday. I have had to see a chiropractor
2 continuously because there are no other ways of fixing
3 the vertebrae except manually.
4 Q. Do you have any medical reports to confirm this?
5 A. Not on me, I did not know that was necessary, but
6 I could have brought the reports from two chiropractors.
7 Q. Are they private medical people with their own
8 surgeries?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. During the examination-in-chief, Mr. R, and also during
11 the cross-examination by my learned colleague that
12 preceded me, you said that you were questioned by the
13 representative of the OTP office, is that true?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. On that occasion, when you were questioned by the
16 investigators of The Hague Tribunal, did they ask you
17 any additional questions in addition to the statement
18 you were making?
19 A. Are you referring to the statement I made or to any
20 questions immediately prior to the trial?
21 Q. I am not aware that you spoke to the investigators
22 immediately before your testimony.
23 A. I said that two or three hours ago.
24 MR. TURONE: Sorry to interrupt, but I think the answers and
25 questions are going too close to each other. I ask your
1 Honour to remind the witness --
2 A. I apologise.
3 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honour, when I think we tell the witness
4 he must wait for the translation, he has no idea how to
5 do that, because he does not know where to hear the
6 translation. It needs to be explained to him he can
7 hear the translation through the other set of
8 earphones. If they are on the right channel and turned
9 up high enough, he will be able to hear when the English
10 translation finishes. Without doing that, instructions
11 to him to listen to the translation are not particularly
12 useful. Thank you.
13 A. Thank you, sir. I did not know, as you said, because
14 I am only listening to one channel.
15 MR. OLUJIC: Mr. R, when you were examined by the investigator
16 of The Hague Tribunal, did the investigators ask you
17 questions?
18 A. Probably, yes.
19 Q. Let me make myself clear: you said everything that you
20 considered important, and did they after that ask you
21 additional questions about certain things?
22 A. (Not interpreted).
23 Q. When you said probably yes, do you recall what those
24 questions were?
25 A. Those could only have been questions to make my
1 statement more precise. If I said there was a killing
2 or a beating, then the question would be, "from what
3 distance could you observe that? Did you personally
4 eyewitness that? Did you personally hear that? How
5 long did the beating last?" The questions were of that
6 nature, there was no additional initiation of new
7 subjects, it was merely to make my comments more
8 precise.
9 Q. Let us focus on that investigation. After the
10 conversation was completed, did you receive a copy of
11 your statement?
12 A. No, because the gentleman who was taking the statement
13 was in a hurry, so that I did not see a copy.
14 Q. Did you receive it subsequently?
15 A. No, perhaps also because I changed my residence in the
16 meantime.
17 Q. Mr. R, you said you had a rifle, you described it to us.
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. My question is: did you have that rifle before
20 13th April 1992, before the outbreak of the conflict in
21 Sarajevo?
22 A. Not before 13th April, no.
23 Q. Did you have that rifle in your house?
24 A. I got the rifle in the period between the first and
25 second attack on Bradina, that is between 12th and
1 25th May, and of course it was at home.
2 Q. Where at home did you keep it?
3 A. How can I explain? I have no idea, I do not know.
4 Q. Was it hidden?
5 A. If it was at home, of course it was hidden.
6 Q. It may not mean that, it may be readily visible to
7 anyone who enters the house. I am asking you the
8 question: was the rifle concealed?
9 A. In the sense that it was not at the door or at the
10 window, yes.
11 Q. Where was it?
12 A. I think it was in the bedroom, shall we call it that.
13 Q. Were there any other weapons in the house?
14 A. No.
15 Q. Was there any ammunition?
16 A. As far as I recall, there were 20 or so bullets.
17 Q. During the examination-in-chief, Mr. R, you said that
18 Bradina was attacked by Croats and Muslims; is that
19 correct?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Will you be so kind as to tell us how you know they were
22 Croats and Muslims?
23 A. I know because from the direction of the west, from
24 Repovci, were attacks by Croatian forces and most of the
25 shelling came from that direction, because the Croats
1 were far better armed than the Muslims were at that
2 time, and the attacks from all the other sides came from
3 the Muslims, because they were more numerous.
4 Q. But how do you know that Muslims came from one side and
5 Croats from the other, as you have indicated?
6 A. Because I was pushed back from the railway station, or
7 rather I retreated to the centre of town, when I saw
8 this army or men in uniform coming in from Repovci and
9 setting light to everything in front of them. The
10 people who fled at that moment from that part, this
11 hamlet which is known as Sunjina Strana, said that they
12 were Croats and that they even recognised some of them.
13 Also there was probably troops of the regular army of
14 the Republic of Croatia, because they reached Konjic
15 already in April, and were put up in the motel there.
16 Q. How do you know that? You said probably. Are you
17 assuming or do you know?
18 A. I had heard about those reports, I was still working in
19 Konjic, and I heard that a Split company had come and
20 was accommodated at the motel in Konjic and the people
21 were terrified what would happen next.
22 Q. A Split company, a company from Split, how did you know?
23 A. That was the rumour in Konjic.
24 Q. So you heard from others?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. You described during the examination-in-chief that at
2 the moment of the attack on Bradina, you were digging
3 your potato patch, is that right?
4 A. Yes, and let me add, I was captured in the rubber boots
5 I was wearing in the garden and blue overalls and a
6 sweater that I was wearing at the time. Rubber boots.
7 Q. Where was your family at the time?
8 A. My family, when the attack started, when the shelling
9 started, were in my apartment, but they later sought
10 shelter in the infirmary in Bradina, or maybe even in
11 the cellar of the cafe owned by Pero Mrkajic, I do not
12 know because I had no contact with them afterwards.
13 Q. What is the distance between the place you were arrested
14 and that cafe?
15 A. The distance is about ten metres, but the cellar is one
16 thing, the army another and the shooting something
17 else. I could not enter the cellar myself. I saw my
18 family for the last time on 25th May, and the next time
19 I met up with them was in April 1994, that is almost a
20 year later, when the Muslim-Croat conflicts started in
21 the territory of the municipality of Konjic.
22 Q. If I understood you well, that actually means that you
23 men, 18 of you, as you had said, were separated and the
24 women and children were separate?
25 A. Certainly, yes.
1 Q. So that is correct, is it not?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. When you were taken prisoner, together with 17 of your
4 comrades, did they have weapons?
5 A. Everybody in that group had some sort of weapons.
6 Q. What weapons did they have?
7 A. Those were different kinds of rifles from hunting rifles
8 that some had, with permits, to semi-automatic rifles,
9 maybe some even had automatic rifles, I do not know
10 exactly what everybody had.
11 Q. Mr. R, you said that during the attack on Bradina, 60
12 Serbs were killed, is that correct?
13 A. I think that this is an approximate number, and let me
14 elaborate. I was never a witness or was ever taken to
15 identify the killed people in front of the church in
16 Bradina or those who were then buried in a common grave
17 there. However, there was a prisoner, his name is
18 Veseljko Milanic, who was taken to Bradina to identify
19 those massacred bodies in a church in Bradina and he
20 said that maybe 40 to 45 people were put in that common
21 grave and that new bodies were daily found in the woods
22 and houses and they were being buried there or in other
23 places. However, that common grave was so badly -- it
24 was not covered properly so there were limbs that were
25 sticking out.
1 Q. Mr. R, you showed a remarkable memory in certain aspects
2 and you mentioned 60 people who were killed during the
3 attack on Bradina.
4 A. I think that this information can be obtained from other
5 people from Bradina. I only worked in Bradina, I was
6 not from Bradina and I did not know many people there.
7 However, I could name some people.
8 Q. My question to you now is if you do not know which 60
9 Serbs these people were, do you assume or do you base
10 that on what you were told by others or on your own
11 experience? We have time, so take your time, please.
12 A. I already said in what way I heard about this number.
13 Also after my release from the prison, I met a number of
14 women who were actually handling those bodies, whether
15 they were their husbands or sons and were burying them.
16 I could not have been a witness because I was already in
17 Celebici at the time or on the truck.
18 Q. Exactly, Mr. R. However, based on your statements, it
19 appears as your direct testimony, so this is what
20 I wanted to clarify.
21 A. The statements that I had given earlier were not given
22 as testimony like the one I am giving today, to give
23 very precise information. This was more general
24 statement on different occasions. If necessary, I could
25 name a certain number of people.
1 Q. That would not be necessary. I understood what you said
2 and it is satisfactory to me, thank you.
3 Mr. R, during the examination-in-chief, when you
4 were examined by my esteemed colleague Mr. Turone, you
5 said that during your arrest in Bradina, you had to run
6 a gauntlet to get on the truck, is that correct?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. On that occasion, were the soldiers on both sides of
9 this gauntlet?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Were the soldiers lined up very densely?
12 A. Yes, right one next to another.
13 Q. Were they all beating you?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Were they beating every prisoner?
16 A. Yes, every prisoner who went through the gauntlet.
17 Q. Were you beaten?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. How long was this cordon or gauntlet?
20 A. I do not know, it could have been about 15 metres long,
21 I already explained the position that we had to assume
22 to pass through this cordon, we had to put our hands
23 like this (indicates), we had to restrict our vision by
24 our elbows and then the blows would follow on these
25 exposed and unprotected areas which were very sensitive.
1 Q. So densely lined up soldiers, 15 metres to the truck?
2 A. I cannot say that those were the exact measurements,
3 that is approximate. Densely lined up soldiers, but
4 whether it was 12, 15, 17 metres long, I do not know.
5 Q. But as you say, 12 or 15 or 17, as you put it?
6 A. Most probably.
7 Q. Mr. R, when you gave your statement to the investigators
8 of The Hague Tribunal, why did you mention a 300 long
9 cordon, whereas you said to the judge in Belgrade that
10 it was 70 metres long, and now you are telling us today
11 that it was 12 or 15 or 17, so you are saying 12 to 17
12 metres today.
13 A. First, I am sure that I never said that it was 300
14 metres long, the cordon. If you have that, please show
15 it to me. I am also convinced that in the statement in
16 Belgrade, I also did not say that the cordon was 70
17 metres long, I would also like to see that part of the
18 statement, if you have it on you. I said pretty much
19 what I said today, so I never mentioned 300 metres.
20 Q. Mr. R, you exclude the possibility that the cordon was in
21 your different statements described as 300 metres, 70
22 metres long and 12, 15 or 17 metres and you say that the
23 truth is what you said today, that is that it was 12, 15
24 or 17 metres long; do I have you correctly?
25 A. In any event, I never said 300 metres, unless this was
1 put into my statement later without my knowledge, and
2 I abide by the statement that I have made today.
3 I think that you do not have such a document where it
4 states 300 metres, unless it was put in it later without
5 my knowledge.
6 Q. Mr. R, on 2nd March 1994 -- before the investigating
7 judge, so this is not a casual occasion -- before Judge
8 Ilija Simic and pursuant to Article 141 of the Criminal
9 Code of Yugoslavia stated that exactly, and you also
10 signed every single page of the statement that you gave
11 to the investigating judge and my colleague, the
12 investigating judge in Belgrade, did forewarn you that
13 you had to -- you were under an obligation to speak the
14 truth, that you were not to omit anything and he also
15 warned you of the consequences of perjury, and he also
16 advised you that you did not have to answer certain
17 questions and, as every practising judge, he said that
18 you would be facing severe consequences of imprisonment
19 should you be telling lies.
20 So you signed this statement given to the Judge
21 Simic and you signed not only once but you signed every
22 single page, which was the usual practice and as is
23 usual in all criminal systems in all of the issuing
24 states in the area, you signed every single page of this
25 record and in it it states that the cordon was 300
1 metres long?
2 A. In no investigation or anywhere else did I say it was
3 300 metres long.
4 Q. I am sorry, Mr. R, when you were questioned by the
5 investigators of the International Criminal Tribunal for
6 War Crimes, you stated that this cordon was 70 metres
7 long -- I apologise, you stated to the investigator 300
8 metres and to the investigating judge 70 metres. What
9 I say to you now is based on the record of the statement
10 that you yourself have given and signed. How is it
11 possible that we have such a discrepancy? It is not the
12 same thing that if you were beaten along the 300 metre
13 long cordon or 12 to 15 metre long cordon?
14 A. What is your question?
15 Q. How do you explain this?
16 A. As I said, I know that I never said that this cordon was
17 300 metres long. I do not recall that I said that it
18 was 70 metres long. I may have said 17. I do not know
19 what was typed up and I do not know what you have in
20 front of you, but I never said that the cordon was 300
21 metres long.
22 Q. Mr. R, I am going to show you the record of the interview
23 that you gave on 2nd March 1994, and I would like to ask
24 the usher's assistance to -- I am afraid we only have a
25 Serbian version of it, there is no translation, so
1 I would like the usher to please show you the record
2 that you have signed. I also have an English
3 translation, even though --
4 THE REGISTRAR: The document is marked D8/2.
5 A. May I comment on this, sir?
6 MR. OLUJIC: Please do not comment on it, just review it with
7 respect to what we have talked about, whether it states
8 300 metres long.
9 A. It states:
10 "As soon as we turned in the weapons, they brought
11 in a truck with canvas" --
12 Q. Excuse me, sir.
13 A. It does not say that the cordon was 70 metres long, it
14 says we had to cover 70 metres to get to the truck. 300
15 metres is never mentioned anywhere.
16 THE REGISTRAR: The document is marked D9/2.
17 A. Please allow me to review the document.
18 MR. OLUJIC: Go ahead, please. (Pause).
19 A. I assume that this is the document given to Mr. Regis?
20 Q. Correct, Mr. R.
21 A. I already mentioned that because of a very short time
22 during which the statement was given to Mr. Regis, it was
23 never authorised. I never signed it and I never
24 received any confirmation later on with respect to this
25 document.
1 Q. So what is stated there is not correct?
2 A. No, it is not correct. Three hundred metres is not
3 correct.
4 Q. Why would Mr. Abribat --
5 MR. TURONE: I object to a question about why another person
6 might have written something.
7 MR. OLUJIC: I do not know, I am just asking, maybe he did
8 tell him why.
9 A. I do not know. I cannot answer that question.
10 Q. Mr. R, do you claim that you did not sign the statement
11 given to Mr. Abribat?
12 A. I only know that it was very pressing when I gave this
13 statement and he said he was going to send it to me, but
14 this is the first time I see it in Serbo-Croatian.
15 Q. You have an excellent memory, could you please answer
16 what you know. When you were giving the statement to
17 Mr. Abribat, did you sign that statement?
18 A. I am not sure, I cannot answer that question, because
19 I know that he kept putting off his flight a couple of
20 times, he left the room to delay his flight.
21 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Would it not be on the statement itself
22 if it was signed?
23 MR. OLUJIC: Yes, your Honour, he did sign, and the signature
24 does exist.
25 A. Then there is no need to ask a round about question. It
1 either exists or it does not exist. I just mentioned
2 the circumstances and the manner in which the statement
3 was given.
4 Q. Mr. R, I am going to show you the statement you gave to
5 the investigating judge in Belgrade and I am going to
6 read you the whole paragraph from that statement, and
7 this is what you said and I quote:
8 "On 26th May 1992, Croatian troops, which was the
9 Split company with the Muslim troops, surrounded Bradina
10 and we had to surrender. Near the railway station, 18
11 of us surrendered because we were promised that nothing
12 would happen to us. However, as soon as we surrendered
13 our weapons, they brought a truck with covered" --
14 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Kindly slow down your speed so that
15 they can interpret it.
16 MR. OLUJIC: Yes, I apologise:
17 "... a canvas-covered truck and we had to pass
18 the distance of about 70 metres to this truck through a
19 cordon of soldiers who, as we were passing through, beat
20 us."
21 Did you say that to the investigating judge in
22 Belgrade?
23 A. Yes, but an explanation here --
24 Q. I just want you to answer the question.
25 A. I cannot just say simply yes or no. First you said that
1 you speak Croatian and I speak Serbian. In fact I speak
2 Herzegovinan if you really want, and I did not say
3 "doterati", but "dotjerati", which is Herzegovinan
4 dialect and I think that the sentence can stand just as
5 I put it. As soon as we surrendered the weapons, we had
6 to cover a distance of 70 metres to the truck. That
7 does not imply that the cordon was 70 metres long, that
8 the distance was 70 metres long between where we put
9 down our weapons and the truck.
10 Q. Yes, however, since you say that the judge was putting
11 in wrong words, it is not your speech, does that mean
12 that the judge also made factual errors in what he was
13 putting down?
14 A. I do not know if the word "doterati" and "dotjerati"
15 mean the same thing or not, I do not know if that is a
16 right assumption or not.
17 Q. Did the investigating judge wrongly write down this 70
18 metres that you had to cover? Did he misunderstand you
19 or you just simply did not say that and he wrote it
20 down?
21 MR. TURONE: Objection, it is asked and answered. He already
22 explained that the distance was 70 metres, but that did
23 not meant that even the gauntlet should be 70 metres.
24 A. That is exactly it.
25 MR. OLUJIC: I thank you, my learned colleague Turone, in
1 this way, but that is not the question that I asked. My
2 question was whether the judge misunderstood the witness
3 or just simply wrongly put down what the witness told
4 him.
5 MR. TURONE: Objection, he cannot --
6 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Which do you think is more consistent
7 with the facts? You can see from the explanation what
8 is more realistic. Why do you push the issue?
9 MR. OLUJIC: I do not insist on it, I just wanted additional
10 clarification, but I am satisfied with the answer.
11 A. Thank you, sir.
12 MR. OLUJIC: Mr. R, is it true that when you were driven from
13 Bradina to Celebici that you were beaten on the truck?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Were all the detainees beaten in the truck?
16 A. Not all of them, because we were crammed in, depending
17 on who jumped first, so that those people who were
18 further forward were not beaten, only those who came
19 last were beaten. I remember that in the case of Simo
20 Mrkajic, a guard kicked him in the jaw and that his
21 teeth were knocked out. The teeth were on the floor of
22 the truck. So that everyone was not beaten, the beating
23 continued so people tried to escape it by moving further
24 forward, so that those who were right next to the
25 driver's cabin probably were not beaten. So the
1 position that we held was that we had our hands behind
2 our heads, that no names were to be used, that we had to
3 look down, I have already described this several times.
4 Q. It emerged from your examination-in-chief that you were
5 more or less all of you very severely beaten upon your
6 capture and while being driven to Celebici?
7 A. Yes, in the gauntlet and also in the truck, as I have
8 already said, those who were closer to the driver got
9 less, those behind got more. It is very simple.
10 Q. Can it be said, Mr. R, that the subsequent prisoners who
11 were brought to Celebici were also beaten upon detention
12 or immediately upon arriving in Celebici?
13 A. Yes, because our truck was the first to reach the
14 Celebici camp and the tunnel, and after they had done
15 with us, other trucks and other prisoners arrived and
16 all of them were beaten in the same way and thrown into
17 the tunnel in the same way. I also know that in the
18 case of some people like Dr. Relja Mrkajic, his glasses
19 were intentionally broken so that he could not see.
20 That is just an example.
21 Q. Mr. R, during the examination-in-chief, you said that
22 Mr. Zdravko Mucic was never present when somebody was
23 beaten as far as you saw; is that correct?
24 A. He was never present when someone was beaten? I said
25 very clearly and precisely that I saw Mr. Zdravko Mucic,
1 Pavo, for the first time when I left tunnel number 9,
2 that he came to hangar number 6 twice and I also can
3 assert that I personally was not present when somebody
4 was being beaten and Mr. Mucic was present.
5 Q. Thank you. Tell me, Mr. R, as an exemplary soldier, a
6 squad leader who was awarded during your military
7 service, do you know that according to the constitution
8 of the former state, who is entitled to sign a
9 surrender? Did anyone have that authority?
10 A. Nobody, probably Tito did because he was omnipotent in
11 his day.
12 Q. Do you know that the death penalty was envisaged for
13 capitulation if anyone were to sign it?
14 A. I do.
15 Q. Then according to that law, how should somebody behave
16 when he finds himself in enemy captivity? May he
17 co-operate with the enemy?
18 A. Could you elaborate on that question a little? What do
19 you mean by not being allowed to co-operate with the
20 enemy and the right to capitulation? I do not
21 understand the connection.
22 Q. Let me explain. Is it the duty of a loyal citizen of
23 SFRY, the former state, when in captivity to do
24 everything he can to escape, according to the laws that
25 were valid in the former state?
1 A. But no one respected the laws at that point in time,
2 that had no relevance at the time at all. Secondly,
3 since our families were also detained at the school in
4 Bradina, any attempt to escape or to do anything would
5 certainly have terrible reprisals.
6 Q. Mr. R, tell me, why did you not tell The Hague
7 investigators that when you were arrested in Bradina,
8 you had a rifle?
9 A. I said yesterday already that I did have.
10 Q. Yes, during the examination-in-chief, when my learned
11 colleague Turone asked you.
12 A. I am here under oath and I am telling the truth.
13 Q. So that is the reason, the reason that you were not
14 under oath, that you did not tell the investigator the
15 same thing when he examined you?
16 A. Just a moment, please. (Pause). Does it say anywhere
17 in this statement that I said that I did not have a
18 rifle?
19 Q. No, it does not, but no mention of a rifle is
20 mentioned.
21 A. But I was not asked about that, I was asked how I was
22 captured, here it does not say anywhere I did have a
23 rifle or I did not have a rifle.
24 Q. Mr. R, but when you were making that statement with the
25 investigating judge in Belgrade, you said that you had a
1 rifle -- just a moment, please. Let us just wait for
2 the interpretation. And now, or rather when examined by
3 the investigator, you did not mention the rifle, so my
4 question now is: did the investigators ask you
5 additionally whether you were armed when you were
6 captured, as far as you can remember?
7 A. Are you referring to Belgrade?
8 Q. No, I am referring to the investigators of The Hague
9 Tribunal.
10 A. They never put that question to me, I was just asked to
11 explain where and how I was captured. As for the
12 statement itself, the statement as it stands was more
13 detailed than this, but because of the shortness of time
14 and the translation, probably that is the reason why it
15 appears in a shorter version, so anyway, no one asked me
16 whether I was armed or not.
17 Q. Thank you.
18 A. You are welcome.
19 Q. Sir, at your first examination, and I am referring to
20 the statement you made for the investigating judge in
21 Belgrade, why did you not say that while you were being
22 transported from Bradina to Celebici in a truck that you
23 were beaten with metal poles, to explain, whereas when
24 speaking to the investigator of the International
25 Tribunal, you did refer to metal poles?
1 A. I already said early on today that these statements were
2 given on different occasions, and I hope that you too
3 appreciate that, that two statements can never be
4 identical. One statement contains a certain set of
5 details, another, because if I were able to
6 repeat the same statement, I would be a robot or a
7 computer, but I still hope I am a human being.
8 Q. So you do not know why you did not mention the metal
9 poles during the first examination?
10 A. I think I said that, but the statement was probably
11 shortened for various reasons. But now here we are, we
12 have the opportunity to make any corrections if
13 necessary.
14 Q. Sir, during your first examination by the investigating
15 magistrate in Belgrade, why did you say on that occasion
16 that several of your ribs were broken and later on, when
17 you were examined by The Hague investigator, you said
18 that only one rib had been broken?
19 A. As to whether it was one or several ribs, even now, if
20 anyone wants to see and feel with their fingers, they
21 may do so. I know that one rib is broken and several
22 others were cracked, so there is a slight imprecision in
23 the wording that you are now pinpointing.
24 Q. Will you please answer my question? Why did you say at
25 the first investigation several ribs and then only one
1 rib when speaking to The Hague investigator?
2 MR. TURONE: Objection, your Honour, asked and answered.
3 MR. OLUJIC: I withdraw that question, thank you.
4 When you were speaking to the investigating
5 magistrate in Belgrade, why did you not tell that
6 magistrate the way in which Zdravko Mucic lined you up
7 in front of the guards and what he told you about
8 greater Serbia as you told us here during the
9 examination-in-chief?
10 A. Because no one asked me about that. Here the emphasis
11 was on individual instances of death, beatings and
12 torture, and probably at that moment the judge did not
13 consider it important, so he did not put it down in the
14 minutes.
15 Q. Mr. R, have you read Dante?
16 A. Yes.
17 MR. OLUJIC: Thank you, I have no further questions.
18 A. You mean, "you who enter leave all hope behind"?
19 MR. MORAN: Your Honours, it is going to take us a few
20 minutes because of the electrical problems here. Would
21 the court like to take the break now?
22 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: If you have difficulties of your
23 continuing immediately.
24 MR. MORAN: There is no problem, your Honour, just whatever
25 pleases the court pleases me.
1 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: You can carry on.
2 MS. McMURREY: I would just like to remind the court that
3 my audio output is dead and that was what Mr. Moran was
4 implying. I normally split with him. Maybe I can move
5 to his place.
6 MR. MORAN: Your Honour, that may be the appropriate way to
7 solve our electrical problem, while I get wired.
8 (Pause). May it please the court.
9 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: You may proceed.
10 Cross-examined by MR. MORAN
11 Q. Thank you, your Honour. Good afternoon, sir.
12 A. Good afternoon, sir.
13 Q. My name is Tom Moran and I am going to be asking you
14 some questions. I would like to see if we can set a few
15 ground rules before I start. The first thing is
16 sometimes the questions I ask frankly are not as precise
17 as they ought to be, and if I ask you a question that
18 confuses you, that you do not understand, will you stop
19 me and I will work with you if it takes all day so you
20 understand it, fair enough?
21 That was the next thing I was going to ask you.
22 You just nodded your head. You will see there are two
23 ladies over here with funny machines, one in front of
24 you, and one over there. They are stenographers and
25 they have to take down every word we say and they cannot
1 take down a nod. Instead of nodding yes or no like we
2 would in a conversation, if you would say yes or no,
3 I would appreciate that and I think they would also.
4 Can you do that for me, sir?
5 A. Yes, fine.
6 Q. One other thing, and I think it will get us done quicker
7 and get us all out of here and you home quicker, if you
8 will listen to the question I ask and just answer the
9 question I ask, I think we can all be done with this in
10 as painless a way as possible; fair enough, sir?
11 A. Okay.
12 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: I think that is not what a nod means.
13 MR. MORAN: Yes, your Honour. Let us start off, I will not
14 try any surprises on you, I will tell you when I am
15 going to change subjects, so there is no confusion to
16 anybody.
17 You were born in the Konjic municipality?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Except for your years in Konjic you have essentially
20 lived in Konjic municipality your entire life?
21 A. I lived in the municipality of Konjic up to the
22 completion of elementary school, I completed my
23 secondary school in Mostar and the university in
24 Sarajevo. After that, I lived within the territory of
25 the municipality of Konjic, where I worked.
1 Q. You are a person from Konjic, basically?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Back, what, in March 1992, there was a referendum in
4 Bosnia on independence, you recall that referendum?
5 A. I know that there was a referendum, but I do not know
6 any details about it.
7 Q. That is fine, sir, the only question I am going to ask
8 is this -- I do not care if you voted or, if you did
9 vote, how you voted, because that is your business, it
10 is none of my business. All I want to know is, if you
11 had desired to vote, could you have voted in that
12 referendum?
13 A. I cannot give you a definitive answer, possibly I could
14 have, but I really do not know when it was held, exactly
15 where, and I did not participate. Probably I could have
16 if I had wanted to.
17 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: That is the answer, I think. That is
18 the answer you wanted.
19 MR. MORAN: He gave me exactly the answer and I want to thank
20 him for that. Another thing, let us jump ahead to the
21 defence of Bradina. We are both old artillery men and
22 you know what a chain of command is, in the military?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. There was no military organisation in Bradina with a
25 chain of command, was there?
1 A. No.
2 Q. There were no commanders or subcommanders or anything
3 like that, were there?
4 A. All I can say is that there were some kind of
5 commanders. My immediate commander was Vaso Vujicic,
6 I got the rifle from him and the orders to go towards
7 the railway station when the attack started.
8 Q. As I recall you testified earlier, none of you had any
9 uniforms?
10 A. No, no one had uniforms.
11 Q. You were not wearing kind of badges or insignia or arm
12 bands, or anything to identify yourself as part of the
13 defence force, were you?
14 A. No. I already explained what my clothes were, what
15 I was wearing rather when I was captured and how I was
16 taken to Celebici, in rubber boots, blue overalls and a
17 green sweater.
18 Q. Really you were not even taking part in the defence when
19 you were captured, you were just digging your potatoes?
20 A. I said at the moment Bradina was attacked, I was in my
21 garden digging potatoes, that Vaso Vujicic ran up and
22 said that Bradina had been attacked from all sides and
23 that I should go towards the railway station.
24 Q. That is fair. My memory was not as good as yours. Let
25 us talk about memories for a second, let us change
1 subjects again. Sometimes I have a hard time
2 remembering what I had for lunch yesterday and I am sure
3 you may very well be the same way. The further back in
4 time an event is, the less well I remember the details.
5 I think we all agree that is true for most people; is
6 that fair?
7 A. It happens to everyone. As far as your memory is
8 concerned, it must be better than mine, because your
9 legal training gives you this greater ability to
10 remember details, but as you say, it is the normal human
11 process of forgetting.
12 Q. Oh but it was true that my memory was that good, sir.
13 I think you talked to Mr. Ackerman about those three
14 statements that you made, the one to the Serbian Counsel
15 Information Centre back in 1993 at some point, and then
16 the interview you gave in the District Court of Belgrade
17 in March 1994, and finally the statement that you gave
18 to the investigator from the Office of the Prosecutor
19 back in October 1995.
20 As I recall your testimony, stop me if I am wrong,
21 it is that when you were giving those statements you
22 were giving them to the best of your memory, answering
23 questions as truthfully as you could; if somebody did
24 not ask a question you did not answer it, but it
25 reflects the best memory that you had at that time; is
1 that a fair statement?
2 A. Yes, I think so. It can be said like that.
3 Q. Last week when you were meeting with Mr. Turone, you had
4 a chance at least to quickly review those statements,
5 all three of them, is that right?
6 A. No, I have already said how it happened. I asked
7 Mr. Turone whether I could carefully read those
8 statements, and he answered the way I have already said,
9 he said, "all you have in your memory is sufficient,
10 there is no need for any additional reading". I asked
11 for a careful review.
12 Q. That might have refreshed your memory, is that right?
13 A. Certainly.
14 Q. I can understand that those kinds of things could occur,
15 that that would help refresh your memory. I understand
16 that sometimes there is going to be details in these
17 statements that are not there, your testimony may be
18 lacking in details; for instance, what was it Mr. Abribat
19 did not ask you, if you had a weapon; do you recall
20 testifying to that?
21 A. I think the interpretation is not quite correct. Could
22 you please give me a sentence that I can answer with yes
23 or no as regards Mr. Abribat?
24 Q. Sure. Your statement to Mr. Abribat does not mention one
25 way or the other whether you had a weapon in Bradina and
1 as I recall your testimony --
2 A. No mention is made.
3 Q. As I recall your testimony, the reason that that is not
4 there is because he never asked?
5 A. No.
6 Q. So that is an example of what I am talking about, that
7 sometimes the details between the statements will be
8 different, but basically --
9 A. Yes, of course.
10 Q. But basically each one of the statements reflected the
11 best memory you had about what you were talking about at
12 the time you made the statement; is that about right?
13 A. Yes, absolutely right.
14 Q. Good. That is what I have been dancing around to get.
15 I may not have been as artful about it as I could have
16 been, but I appreciate you struggling through this with
17 me.
18 The day you were captured was what, January
19 26th 1992 or was it the 25th?
20 A. January?
21 Q. May, I am sorry, May 25th 1992. Was that not the day
22 you were arrested?
23 A. I think it was 26th May in the evening. I know it was
24 the evening. I think it was 26th.
25 Q. Okay, and you were taken immediately to the Celebici
1 camp?
2 A. Yes, that truck went directly to the Celebici camp. The
3 one in front of us went to Musala for beatings. Our
4 truck did not visit Konjic, it drove directly to
5 Celebici and then what happened was what I have been
6 telling you about this past two days.
7 Q. Sure. The first day you were there, which would have
8 been the 25th or 26th May, the first day you were there
9 was the day that there were these beatings?
10 A. That evening.
11 Q. As I recall, you testified that a man named Hazim Delic
12 was there at those beatings, is that right?
13 A. As far as the night of the beatings, I did not indicate
14 who was there on the first night of the beatings because
15 I described the position, manner the whole procedure,
16 but somebody from the immediate vicinity issued the
17 commands, saying, "that is enough".
18 Q. Do you know whether that was Hazim Delic? One way or
19 the other. If you do not know, you do not know.
20 A. I do not know. I did not even mention him in that
21 context, I did mention him in other contexts.
22 Q. Okay. After those beatings, you were all stripped to
23 your underwear and put into tunnel number 9?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. You were locked in tunnel number 9 for some period of
1 time, about a week, and during that period --
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. And during that period, the only water you got was,
4 what, this industrial water you talked about, it was
5 pretty filthy stuff?
6 A. Yes, the first day we got the proper drinking water from
7 the command building and later that stopped. In number
8 6, even that kind of poor quality water was reduced to a
9 minimum.
10 Q. My notes from yesterday indicate that the time you were
11 in tunnel 9 and you were getting this industrial water,
12 it was so filthy that there were pieces of faeces in it;
13 do you recall testifying to that?
14 A. I do, and that is the truth. I also said that for a
15 long time after leaving the camp, I had problems with my
16 liver.
17 Q. Yes, sir. I thought we would have a deal you would
18 listen to my question and answer it. Like I say, that
19 will get us out of here a little quicker.
20 A. I apologise.
21 Q. That is fine, thank you. You also as I recall testified
22 that there was urine and excrement all over tunnel 9 and
23 the level of that stuff started rising in the tunnel
24 because the tunnel sloped downward; do you remember
25 testifying to that?
1 A. Yes, I do not know what the exact precise statement you
2 are referring to, the tunnel was sloping downwards and
3 this last part was flat, so that as it filled up with
4 urine and faeces, the level rose and flooded part of the
5 tunnel where we were lying, so it was occupying more
6 space so that there was less left for us to sit and lie
7 on.
8 Q. There were about 70 people jammed in there that week,
9 were there not?
10 A. I said on the first night, I think I said 77 on the
11 first night, but the number varied immediately during
12 that first week. Some were transferred to number 6,
13 I mentioned just my own case when I was transferred,
14 I know that some people were directly moved from there
15 to the sports hall in Konjic.
16 Q. How many people that were in there came down with
17 cholera?
18 A. I do not know that anyone got cholera, but I know that
19 everyone had a diarrhoea.
20 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Mr. Moran, I think we will take the
21 break now.
22 MR. MORAN: Your Honour, can I take two more minutes and then
23 that will be a perfect time to break, a change of
24 subject?
25 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Yes.
1 MR. MORAN: Did many people get typhus?
2 A. I do not know that anyone contracted typhus. All
3 I know, I repeat, was terrible cases of diarrhoea and
4 loss of body weight. I weighed about 88 kilograms when
5 I was captured and when I left, I weighed 57.
6 MR. MORAN: So no one had typhus, no one had cholera. Your
7 Honour, I think this would be a good time for a break.
8 A. I am not aware of any such cases.
9 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: A break for a conclusion?
10 MR. MORAN: Only a break, not a conclusion, but I thank your
11 Honour's indulgence for letting me finish off the
12 subject.
13 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: We will break now and come back at
14 4.30.
15 (4.00 pm)
16 (A short break)
17 (4.30 pm)
18 (Witness entered court)
19 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Kindly remind the witness he is still
20 on his oath.
21 THE REGISTRAR: I am reminding you, sir, that you are still
22 testifying under oath.
23 A. Yes.
24 MR. MORAN: May it please the court.
25 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Yes, you may proceed.
1 MR. MORAN: Your Honour, I am about set to mention a name and
2 I would like to mention it in private session, if
3 I may.
4 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Can we go into closed session now?
5 (In closed session)
6 (redacted)
7 (redacted)
8 (redacted)
9 (redacted)
10 (redacted)
11 (redacted)
12 (redacted)
13 (redacted)
14 (redacted)
15 (redacted)
16 (redacted)
17 (redacted)
18 (redacted)
19 (redacted)
20 (redacted)
21 (In open session)
22 MR. MORAN: Okay, sir, we are back in public session, and
23 everyone out in the audience can hear us, if they are
24 there. Remember on direct you testified about a couple
25 of days after you were thrown into tunnel number 9 and
1 some guards came in and passed a helmet and told you to
2 put all of your valuables in it?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. That name I mentioned, that man, was he one of the
5 people that did that? If you do not know, you do not
6 know?
7 A. I do not know if it was at night and at the beginning,
8 I did not know the majority of people in there.
9 Q. Do you know that man whose name I mentioned in private
10 session?
11 A. I do not know him personally, but I know that he was in
12 Celebici at one point.
13 Q. Okay. You do not recall whether he was one of the
14 people that passed the helmet or not?
15 A. I do not recall. In fact, nobody did pass it around,
16 the helmet was passed in at the entrance and then people
17 were passing it on among themselves to put things
18 inside. Nobody walked inside. The practice was for the
19 guards not to enter during the night. Maybe Mr. Delic
20 did come in, but only much later in August. He would
21 come into number 6.
22 Q. Okay, sir. Let us change subjects again. Let me follow
23 something up you just said, but it does not have to do
24 with that man. Did I understand your testimony was that
25 it was a rare occasion for a guard to go either into
1 tunnel 9 or hangar 6 at night until August? Did
2 I understand you to say that?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. I think again we agree that it was a rare thing for that
5 to happen at night?
6 A. Yes, all the way until August, until Mr. Delic came in
7 several times. Up until then, the guards would call out
8 from the doorstep, they would call the prisoners out by
9 their names and then bring them out, beat them.
10 Q. That is fine. Sir, let us change subjects again for a
11 second, okay? You testified yesterday about the death
12 of Miroslav Vujcic, do you remember that?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. As I recall your testimony, you testified that Mr. Delic
15 had been involved in that shooting; is that correct?
16 A. I said that I was in the tunnel at that time and that we
17 only heard beatings and cries, and later, excuse me,
18 after the burst of fire, you could hear the voice, "he
19 fled, God damn it" and then we saw his brother Radoslav
20 and he said, "Delic killed Miroslav".
21 Q. So the source of your information that it was Mr. Delic
22 who killed him was Mr. Vujcic's brother Radoslav, is that
23 correct?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. You have absolutely no personal knowledge one way or the
1 other except what Radoslav Vujcic told you; is that
2 correct?
3 A. This personal experience, partial or whatever, is such
4 that we could hear the voice of Miroslav, in fact
5 I heard Miroslav's voice, because I knew him for at
6 least ten years before the war.
7 Q. Yes, sir, but the question I had for you was that the
8 source of your information for Mr. Delic's involvement in
9 this shooting is Radoslav Vujcic; that is what you
10 testified to today and that is what you testified to
11 yesterday, is that not right?
12 A. Yes.
13 MR. MORAN: Your Honour, with the help of the usher? Here
14 are copies for the court, the Registry and one for the
15 Prosecutor. Your Honour, I move to introduce under
16 whatever the next number is a portion of Radoslav
17 Vujcic's statement to the Office of the Prosecutor. So
18 I could narrow it down, it is the cover page that has a
19 Bates number of 00385415, the signature page, which has
20 a Bates number of 00385419, and one paragraph of the
21 first page, which has a Bates number of 00385416. That
22 paragraph starts as the fifth paragraph from the top,
23 starts off "when we arrived in Celebici"; specifically,
24 your Honour, I am introducing it for the limited purpose
25 of impeaching the declarant to that statement, which
1 would be Mr. Radoslav Vujcic.
2 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Who is the declarant here?
3 MR. MORAN: Your Honour, the witness testified that the
4 declarant for the statement that Mr. Delic was involved
5 in the shooting was Radoslav Vujicic. This is
6 Mr. Vujcic's statement about that. Like I say, I am just
7 limiting the offer. I have given the court and the
8 Registry clean copies, but all I am offering is the
9 front page, the signature page and the one
10 paragraph that I identified, which is on the second
11 page.
12 JUDGE JAN: What is the number of the page?
13 MR. MORAN: The first page says "witness statement" at the
14 top, the last number, the Bates number at the bottom --
15 JUDGE JAN: Which paragraph is it?
16 MR. MORAN: The fifth paragraph, starts off "when we arrived
17 in Celebici".
18 JUDGE JAN: He states he does not know who killed his
19 brother.
20 MR. MORAN: That is correct, your Honour. Like I say, it is
21 not to impeach this witness, it is to impeach
22 Mr. Vujcic's statement to this witness, that is what the
23 offer is for.
24 JUDGE JAN: You can impeach him only with reference to his
25 statement. How can you impeach him with reference to
1 someone else's statement?
2 MR. MORAN: Your Honour, I am not impeaching this witness.
3 I am not saying that Mr. Vujcic did not tell him that.
4 My position is that what he told Mr. R is different from
5 what he said to the Prosecutor, so the declarant,
6 Mr. Vujcic, is impeached.
7 JUDGE JAN: Maybe Radoslav made a false statement to him.
8 MR. MORAN: That is possible, your Honour, that is my
9 position, it is conceivably possible. I am not impugning
10 this man at all. If the court would like, I can deliver
11 another copy of this statement that has everything else
12 blacked out and just including the one paragraph of the
13 offer, plus the front page and the signature page;
14 whatever makes the court happy makes me happy.
15 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: It is not a question of happiness
16 here. We are talking about irregularities, not about
17 happiness.
18 JUDGE JAN: Are you producing Radoslav as a witness?
19 MR. TURONE: We are not calling Radoslav Vujicic as a
20 witness.
21 MR. MORAN: Your Honour, Mr. Greaves just pointed out to me
22 that this goes to the trustworthiness under Tadic of the
23 statement from Radoslav Vujicic to this witness.
24 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: I agree, but how does it get in?
25 MR. MORAN: Your Honour, it gets in to (i) show the
1 untrustworthiness of the statement given by Mr. Vujicic
2 to this witness here, and (ii) it shows that the person
3 who actually made the statement that is in front of the
4 court, that Mr. Delic was involved in the shooting, has
5 made two different statements.
6 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: It will not be sufficient to say that
7 the witness was not told something.
8 MR. MORAN: I am not saying the witness -- my position is --
9 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Even if you look at the dates when he
10 told him this, gave him this information, it was much
11 earlier than this.
12 MR. MORAN: Let me clear that up with one quick question,
13 your Honour.
14 Sir, when Mr. Vujcic, Radoslav, gave you this
15 information about his brother's death, that was while
16 you were in the camp, was it not?
17 A. Yes, immediately upon entering the hangar 6. Radoslav
18 was in very bad shape, his hands were broken.
19 MR. MORAN: Sir, that is fine, thank you. Your Honour,
20 again, the statement that Radoslav made ... Judge Jan,
21 your microphone is on and I can hear you fairly well.
22 JUDGE JAN: As a judge, I do not talk about some thing which
23 I do not want other people to know.
24 MR. MORAN: I promised Mr. Hocking some months ago that if
25 this occurred I would warn you.
1 JUDGE JAN: It is in open court, it does not matter.
2 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: (Inaudible).
3 THE INTERPRETER: Your Honour, your microphone is not on.
4 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Is it a potentially exculpatory matter
5 should be filed in these proceedings? I do not see how
6 you can, through this witness, who was told a thing on
7 the day it happened, which is usually the best evidence
8 there is, but on this, which is considerably later --
9 but for such a serious matter to have escaped -- as I
10 was saying, it was long time ago.
11 MR. MORAN: I have just been informed first by Mr. Greaves --
12 and I know the Tribunal is not bound by the national
13 rules of evidence and I am not asking you to adopt them,
14 but Mr. Greaves has told me that he has seen, in the
15 United Kingdom, cases where what we would call
16 hearsay -- one time, he says -- what we would call
17 hearsay, where an inconsistent prior statement by the
18 declarant was admitted, and I can tell you that under
19 the American Federal Rules of Evidence, specifically
20 I think it is Rule 805 -- is that correct? It is either
21 805 or 806. It is specifically provided for in the
22 American national rules, and I think the reason for it
23 is this: if a Tribunal of any type is going to consider
24 statements made by other people out of court, you have
25 to be able to look at the reliability of that
1 statement.
2 An example that comes to mind is out of Judge
3 Cassese's book with Judge Roling on the Tokyo Tribunal,
4 where a statement on Foreign Minister Ribbentrop in
5 Germany that he made just a few days before he was
6 executed came in and the way Judge Roling, who was the
7 judge on the Tokyo Tribunal, analysed it was there was
8 two things you had to look at: one, did Mr. Ribbentrop
9 make this statement, and I am not disputing the fact
10 that Radoslav Vujicic made the statement to this
11 witness, and then the second thing the court should look
12 at is, is the statement true. His own statement goes to
13 the truth of that, it goes to the weight this court
14 ought to give what Mr. Vujicic told this witness.
15 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: How does it become a part of the
16 proceedings, this is what I am trying --
17 MR. MORAN: Your Honour, it comes in for the very limited
18 purpose, not of substantive evidence, not to show that
19 Mr. Delic did or did not do anything --
20 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: But to show that there is an
21 inconsistent statement about the matter.
22 MR. MORAN: By the person who has made the statement that has
23 been introduced to the Tribunal, that is correct, your
24 Honour, and that is all I am offering it for. Again, it
25 does not go to show whether Mr. Vujicic made the
1 statement, but whether what he told this person is a
2 true fact.
3 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: I see your point, I agree, there are
4 two statements which are inconsistent about the same
5 matter, credited to the same person. How do we get his
6 second statement into evidence, that is what I am
7 saying?
8 MR. ACKERMAN: May I try to shed --
9 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: This is not part of the --
10 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, your Honour.
11 JUDGE JAN: And it is not reliable, that portion.
12 MR. MORAN: Yes, your Honour, it goes to the weight the court
13 ought to give the hearsay evidence that was admitted.
14 JUDGE JAN: Yes, you exclude that, saying it was not
15 reliable, because the evidence is only admissible if it
16 is reliable and has probative value.
17 MR. MORAN: Your Honour, I do not want to sound like
18 Mr. Niemann on this, but we have trained judges here and
19 it helps me.
20 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Before you reject one, you must have
21 the two to compare. How do we get this into evidence?
22 That is the point. I suppose Mr. Ackerman is anxious to
23 assist, so let us hear him.
24 MR. ACKERMAN: I do not know if I can be of any assistance at
25 all, but it seems to me that in a situation where the
1 Trial Chamber, based upon the Tadic decision, on
2 occasion lets in evidence that would be excluded as
3 hearsay where I come from, for instance, what is always
4 at issue then is the reliability of that out of court
5 statement. Did that out of court statement that you
6 have heard, in this case what Radoslav Vujicic said to
7 this witness, is that a reliable statement?
8 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: If it is made, that is the second
9 point.
10 MR. ACKERMAN: And was it reliable, because if it is not
11 reliable it should not come in. It seems to me there
12 are two possibilities. Number one, this court could
13 say, based upon the document presented to it, it can now
14 retroactively determine that that statement was not
15 reliable and exclude it from the evidence and exclude it
16 from your consideration; or secondly, you can go ahead
17 and admit this document as evidence of the reliability
18 of the statement that has been admitted and consider the
19 weight that it might have in showing that and therefore
20 in your deliberations weigh the reliability of the
21 statement that has been admitted through this witness.
22 There are two ways to go.
23 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: The first consideration I have pointed
24 out has still not been answered, how do we get it into
25 the proceedings, because it is exculpatory and should be
1 in the proceedings. You cannot get it into proceedings
2 through this witness.
3 MR. MORAN: Your Honour, that is a statement which shows on
4 its face that it was taken by the Office of the
5 Prosecutor and was provided to us in discovery, and I do
6 not think that anyone from over there will dispute that
7 that is in fact what occurred. I have no reason to
8 believe that that statement is anything other than what
9 it purports to be, a statement taken by an investigator
10 for the Office of the Prosecutor on February 21st 1996,
11 properly interpreted by the -- just the way every other
12 statement is.
13 So the authentication, unless the Prosecution
14 wants to take the position, and I do not think they
15 will, that it is not what it purports to be, in fact
16 I bet they are willing to stipulate that it is what it
17 purports to be, that it is a document provided to us in
18 discovery that is a statement of this witness.
19 MR. TURONE: Of course it was a statement provided to the
20 Defence lawyers by the Prosecution, your Honour.
21 Certainly.
22 JUDGE JAN: There is no dispute about the genuineness of
23 this statement, because it was recorded by your office.
24 There are two ways open: we have it tendered in before
25 us or strike off that portion in which he refers to how
1 the death of this particular person occurred as
2 unreliable hearsay.
3 MR. TURONE: We have no objection to the tendering of this
4 document, your Honour, provided this is done not to
5 impeach this witness.
6 JUDGE JAN: (inaudible) that person would be telling a lie.
7 MR. TURONE: We have no objection, your Honour.
8 MR. MORAN: Pardon me, your Honour, it is admitted?
9 JUDGE JAN: I said we can take it into evidence as an
10 admitted document.
11 MR. MORAN: Again, I am just offering the one
12 paragraph plus --
13 JUDGE JAN: It does not matter.
14 MR. MORAN: Thank you very much, your Honour.
15 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Let us follow your background for
16 tendering it. You lay the foundation for tendering it
17 by asking the question, then you point out to him that
18 this is the statement from this gentleman, it states to
19 the contrary, then you can put it in.
20 MR. MORAN: Sir, did someone deliver a copy of that statement
21 to you, Mr. R? You said that you read some English; is
22 your English good enough to read that document?
23 I notice you were flipping through it, especially that
24 one paragraph.
25 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: The first page.
1 A. Yes.
2 JUDGE JAN: I am sure he can. He has read Dante's
3 "Inferno".
4 MR. MORAN: Your Honour, if he has read Dante's Inferno, he
5 has read a lot more than I have.
6 JUDGE JAN: He quoted a passage from the book?
7 A. I apologise, Dante is in Italian, but I shall do my best
8 to read this too. The sentence roughly says that
9 soldiers cried out, "a Chetnik has escaped", and that a
10 soldier shot at him. When he fell, another soldier shot
11 him in the back, or the back of his head, with three
12 bullets, et cetera.
13 MR. MORAN: Yes, sir, if you could stop here just for a
14 second.
15 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: It is the last sentence, "I could not
16 see the soldiers who shot at my brother". This is
17 really --
18 MR. MORAN: That is the relevant thing.
19 A. Yes, I was facing the wall and I could not see over my
20 shoulder.
21 MR. MORAN: Yes, sir. So what it says here is different from
22 what Radoslav told you?
23 A. I told you what he told me, and I am not competent for
24 what is stated in this document. I know that this
25 happened very shortly after we were transferred from the
1 tunnel to number 6.
2 Q. All I am asking, and I am asking really because of our
3 rules of evidence here, just asking for you to confirm
4 for us that what Mr. Vujicic said in that statement is
5 different from what he told you at Celebici; and that is
6 just a yes or no?
7 A. Obviously it is different.
8 MR. MORAN: That is fine, sir, that is all I was asking.
9 Your Honour, I again move to admit that one
10 paragraph plus the cover sheet and the signature page.
11 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Have you given a copy to the Registry?
12 MR. MORAN: I believe it is on the witness stand, your
13 Honour. I guess the Registrar can retrieve it.
14 THE REGISTRAR: The document is marked D12/3.
15 MR. MORAN: Okay sir, let us go to a different subject here
16 and let us see if we can get you out of here and home
17 today.
18 JUDGE JAN: With apologies to Madam Residovic. She has yet
19 to take her turn.
20 MR. MORAN: Your Honour, the look I just got ...
21 Again, changing our subjects, in some of your
22 statements, I think at least two and maybe three of your
23 statements, you recounted an incident where some Arab
24 journalists came through; do you remember the Arab
25 journalists coming through?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. I will be right up front with you. Some of the
3 witnesses here have testified that the Arab journalists
4 actually filmed people being beaten in hangar 6 or at
5 least in the camp and, as I recall, others testified
6 that these Arab journalists actually took part in some
7 of the beatings. Which one is it, sir, do you recall?
8 A. They did not participate in the beatings, they did
9 participate in the filming.
10 Q. So they just filmed the beatings, they did not join in,
11 is that right?
12 A. They did not participate in the beatings, they just
13 filmed the beatings.
14 Q. That is because other people have testified, I am trying
15 to help clear that up, and I thank you very much for
16 that, sir.
17 Now I want to jump back again to a different
18 subject. In your statement, the statement that you made
19 to the District Court in Belgrade, you mentioned a woman
20 named Grozdana Cecez; do you remember just generally
21 about that?
22 A. Do you mean do I remember the woman called Grozdana
23 Cecez, or do I remember making that statement?
24 Q. Either one. Let us start off with: do you remember
25 making the statement?
1 A. Yes, certainly I made the statement, that was what we
2 were talking about all afternoon.
3 Q. Yes, sir. Do you remember including in the statement,
4 your statement, about Ms. Cecez?
5 A. I do not remember. I do not know exactly what I said in
6 that statement.
7 Q. Okay. What I want you to do is help clear something up
8 for me and it is this: in your statement made to the
9 Belgrade Prosecutor you said that you heard Ms. Cecez
10 being interviewed on a television programme. Do you
11 remember seeing her on a television programme?
12 A. I do not know what I stated, but I know that I did watch
13 that interview. I do not know what the exact wording of
14 that sentence is.
15 Q. I would read it to you, but I wanted it in general
16 terms. It is:
17 "I heard from Grozdana herself when I saw her
18 interviewed on Novica TV."
19 Do you remember seeing her on television?
20 A. I do remember seeing her speaking on television. The
21 sentence is not very precise, not the moment when she
22 was giving the interview but when the interview was
23 being broadcast on television; not the moment of the
24 interview, but the moment when it was shown on
25 television.
1 Q. You just answered my next question, which was going to
2 be, were you present when she was interviewed or did you
3 just see it with everybody else in the world and you
4 have just answered that.
5 A. I was not present, I saw it on television. That is why
6 I was saying the sentence is not precise.
7 Q. I understand that, sir, and that is why I ask you about
8 it.
9 You also said in your statement to the
10 Prosecutor -- excuse me, to the court in Belgrade, same
11 paragraph:
12 "During the whole time" -- presumably that is the
13 whole time that you were in Celebici -- "there were two
14 women imprisoned in Celebici, but in another building.
15 They were Grozdana Cecez from Donje Selo near Konjic and
16 Milojka Antic from the village of Ibar, Konjic
17 municipality."
18 Do you remember making that statement, sir?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Maybe you can help me with this, the year before on
21 18th February 1993 in Belgrade, where you gave a
22 statement to a group called the Serbian Counsel
23 Information Centre, you said in your statement:
24 "There were no women in the camp at Celebici."
25 Those are inconsistent statements, are they not,
1 sir?
2 A. Yes, the statements are inconsistent, they do not
3 coincide, but please allow me to clear this up. May
4 I be allowed to finish my sentence?
5 MR. MORAN: If the Prosecutor wants to clear that up?
6 MR. TURONE: I will ask, your Honour, to allow the witness to
7 finish.
8 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: He might be able to tell you why.
9 MR. MORAN: Can you clear up the inconsistencies between
10 those two statements?
11 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: These are facts which are available to
12 the Trial Chamber, even without his clearing it, so let
13 us hear him.
14 MR. MORAN: Thank you, your Honour. Go ahead, sir.
15 A. I would be glad to and it is very simple to clear up.
16 When I was asked whether women were imprisoned in
17 Celebici, in the sense of large-scale imprisonment,
18 similar to the imprisoning of men, hundreds and tens,
19 I said then there were not any women because women were
20 not imprisoned with us, either in the tunnel or in
21 number 6. That was the sense in which I meant that
22 there were no women, there was no massive incarceration
23 of women at the Celebici camp. That is the
24 inconsistency.
25 Q. So when you said there were no women, what you meant
1 were there were only two women, is that right?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. So "no" means "a few"? Sir, let us go on to another
4 subject.
5 During the break, one of my co-counsels pointed
6 something out to me that may not have been clear to them
7 and they asked me to put this question to you so I will
8 ask you this question: in Bradina, when you were
9 arrested, the people that took you into custody were
10 members of the army and not the guards at the camp, is
11 that correct?
12 A. The people who arrested us and forced us to climb the
13 truck were men in uniform, but the system and the way in
14 which we were loaded on to the truck with our hands
15 behind our heads, looking down, without looking left or
16 right, anyone who did got additional blows, so I cannot
17 claim with any certainty that there may not have been
18 guards in Bradina who were later guards at Celebici.
19 Q. But it was not the guard force from Celebici that
20 arrested you, it was the army that then transported you
21 to Celebici, is that correct?
22 A. I said, I cannot answer that question with precision
23 because the guards were wearing exactly the same uniform
24 as the army.
25 Q. Another thing, sir, is that in your evidence-in-chief,
1 when Mr. Turone was asking you questions, you testified
2 that Mr. Mucic was the commander at Musala; do you
3 remember testifying to that?
4 A. Yes, I do.
5 Q. Did you not say in your statements to the Serbian
6 Information Centre, the one in February 1993, that a man
7 named Ismet, I believe it is Hebibovic, was the
8 commander at Musala?
9 A. Hebibovic.
10 Q. Did you testify he was the Musala commander?
11 A. I do not know how exactly it is stated. He was in
12 Musala what Delic was in Konjic, but the commander of
13 both camps together with Mr. Mucic.
14 Q. Did you not tell the Belgrade District Court in February
15 or March 1994 that this same person was the commander at
16 Musala?
17 A. Yes, the commander in the sense of everyday life,
18 everyday organisation and checking of presence and being
19 together with the guards, in the sense that Delic was
20 the daily organiser of everything happening in Celebici.
21 Q. Sir, you are not familiar with the organisation charts
22 for either one of those camps, are you? They did not
23 share that with you, did they?
24 A. No, they did not share it with us, but everybody knew.
25 Q. So everybody was just assuming, right?
1 A. No, we were not assuming, it was not an assumption, we
2 knew.
3 Q. Because you had access to the Bosnian army orders
4 assigning these people to things?
5 A. No, certainly not.
6 Q. One last thing, sir, and I believe this will finish us
7 up and maybe get you out of here today, is --
8 A. I hope so too.
9 Q. I hope so too and I know you want to go back to your
10 family and I appreciate that. Mr. Mucic accompanied you
11 on the walk from tunnel number 9 to hangar number 6; do
12 you remember testifying to that on direct?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. You did not mention that in either one of your
15 statements to either the Serbian Information Centre in
16 Belgrade or the Serbian District Court, did you?
17 A. I did not say that, because I repeat again that all the
18 data that were collected were intended to collect the
19 names of the people who were killed, who were beaten,
20 and not to gather information on such details as to who
21 accompanied us from the tunnel to number 6. Most of the
22 people who were collecting that information felt that
23 this was an insignificant detail, the simple transfer
24 from one structure to another within the camp compound.
25 Q. Sir, not wanting to argue with you, but I would just
1 suggest to you that firstly the investigation before the
2 District Court of Belgrade was a criminal investigation
3 to find people to charge with offences, was it not?
4 A. I do not know, I do not know whether it was criminal
5 proceedings, I thought it was collecting information, so
6 I am not familiar with the legal terms.
7 Q. Well sir, I come from a very different legal system and
8 I can be very wrong about that legal system too, but it
9 seems that is what it says on the front. Would it
10 surprise you, sir, that in that statement you have
11 listed, in the English translation at least, almost two
12 pages of people, a little less than two pages of people
13 that you say were perpetrators of things? You list
14 names like Osman Dedic, Padalovic, Kemo, Plosko,
15 Turkovic. All those people were guards, were they not,
16 at various places you were held custody?
17 A. In the course of my testimony yesterday, I described in
18 detail and with precision what I saw. As for the things
19 that I did not personally observe, I did not mention
20 them. Only what I saw or heard myself.
21 MR. MORAN: Yes, sir. Your Honour, if I can go through my
22 notes rather quickly, I think -- Scepo Gotovac, you
23 testified about his death; you remember that?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Do you remember saying in your statements, at least in
1 your statement to the District Court of Belgrade, that a
2 15 centimetre nail had been hammered into his forehead?
3 A. I remember stating that on the basis of the testimony of
4 people who were right next to him. I said very clearly
5 and with precision yesterday where I was and where he
6 was and how much I could see from the position I held in
7 the direction of the body of Scepo Gotovac as it lay
8 there.
9 MR. MORAN: Sir, I am from the United States and we are,
10 I think, the last country in the world to still use feet
11 and inches and miles and crazy things like that, so I am
12 probably not as familiar with centimetres as I ought to
13 me, but it seems to me 15 centimetres seems to be about
14 that long (indicates).
15 Your Honour, my daughter is much better at it, she
16 is learning it at school.
17 Sir, I thank you very much and I pass the witness,
18 your Honour.
19 A. Thank you too.
20 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Thank you very much. Do you not think
21 we should wait until tomorrow morning because we have
22 now only five minutes left?
23 MS. RESIDOVIC: Your Honour, it may be sufficient.
24 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Thank you, wonderful.
25 MS. RESIDOVIC: Good evening, Mr. R.
1 A. Good evening, Madam -- Ms., I apologise.
2 Q. My name is Edina Residovic, I represent Mr. Zejnil
3 Delalic, so that is sufficient for you to know during
4 this evening, during our conversation.
5 A. Fine, Madam.
6 Q. Mr. R, I assume you must be very tired after very
7 exhaustive examination and cross-examination?
8 A. Yes, rather.
9 Q. I thank you, Mr. R, for having made so many statements
10 before today's testimony and you were also spoke very
11 extensively during the examination-in-chief and
12 cross-examination, so that you even answered some
13 questions several times, so that I, as the Defence
14 counsel of Mr. Zejnil Delalic, have no questions for
15 you.
16 A. I never mentioned Mr. Delalic, as I know nothing about
17 him, nor did I know him before the war, nor did I meet
18 him anywhere during the war. Thank you too.
19 MS. RESIDOVIC: Thank you, goodbye.
20 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Thank you very much. Any
21 re-examination?
22 MR. TURONE: Your Honour, we have no further questions for
23 re-examination, but should I ask that the two previous
24 statements to the investigating judge in Belgrade and to
25 the OTP, be entered just to show the extent to which
1 this witness has not been impeached through these two
2 previous statements? Thank you.
3 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.
4 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Let us know your reason for wanting to
5 have it in. Let us have your argument.
6 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honour, I would have no objection if it
7 also includes the other statement we spent a long time
8 talking about today, and that is the Serbian Counsel
9 Information Centre. They have only offered two and all
10 three should come.
11 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: I agree. Definitely we will be finding
12 a way of bringing in a particular statement. If the
13 statement has any relevance at all, then they should all
14 come in.
15 MR. TURONE: All right, your Honour. No objection.
16 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Let us have the statements. Have you
17 any other questions, other than tendering those
18 statements?
19 MR. OLUJIC: Nothing else, you have already ruled,
20 your Honours. Thank you.
21 MR. TURONE: The two statements were tendered and marked by
22 Mr. Olujic.
23 MR. MORAN: Your Honour, we will find a clean copy of the
24 third statement and deliver it to the Registry to be
25 given whatever number it should be given by whoever it
1 is given by.
2 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: The last statement or all of them?
3 MR. MORAN: Your Honour, I think there is a total of four
4 statements involved in this, the one he gave to the
5 Serbian Information Counsel, the one to the Serbian
6 court, the one to the OTP and then Radoslav's
7 statement. I have just been handed a clean copy of the
8 last statement, I think we have got it solved, judge.
9 If the usher can deliver this?
10 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Also mark this one so that we can know
11 what its number is.
12 THE REGISTRAR: This document will be marked D13/3.
13 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: I think this is the end of today's
14 proceedings. Thank you, Mr. R. You have done very
15 well.
16 A. May I be permitted to ask a question, if it is not out
17 of order? I have a question to Mr. Olujic. I should
18 like to see the document where it says that the cordon
19 was 300 metres. Could I just see that line?
20 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: These proceedings are over. I was only
21 trying to thank you very much --
22 A. Thank you and I apologise.
23 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: -- and wish you very well on your
24 voyage home. Thank you very much.
25 A. Thank you.
1 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: We have no proceedings tomorrow, and we
2 are not likely to sit on Monday, because we have a
3 plenary to attend.
4 MR. NIEMANN: As your Honours please. There are no further
5 witnesses available this week.
6 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Then we will keep our fingers crossed.
7 MR. NIEMANN: For next week.
8 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Yes. As I said, we will not sit on
9 Monday. We will meet on Tuesday.
10 (5.35 pm)
11 (Court adjourned until 10.00 am
12 on Tuesday, 21st October 1997)
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