1 Wednesday, 22nd October, 1997
2 (10.00 am)
3 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Good morning, ladies and gentlemen.
4 Can we have the appearances now?
5 MR. NIEMANN: If your Honour pleases, my name is Niemann and
6 I appear with my colleague Mr. Khan for the Prosecution.
7 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: The appearances for the Defence,
9 MS. RESIDOVIC: Good morning, your Honour. My name is
10 Edina Residovic and I am Defence counsel for Mr. Zejnil
11 Delalic. With me appears my colleague, Eugene
12 O'Sullivan, professor from Canada.
13 MR. OLUJIC: Good morning, your Honour. My name is Zeljko
14 Olujic, Defence counsel for Zdravko Mucic. I would like
15 to apologise on behalf of my co-counsel Michael Greaves,
16 attorney from the United Kingdom; I hope he will be with
17 us later in the day.
18 MR. KARABDIC: Good morning, your Honour. I am Salih
19 Karabdic, attorney from Sarajevo, and I am Defence
20 counsel for Mr. Hazim Delic. With me appears Mr. Thomas
21 Moran, lawyer from Houston Texas.
22 MR. ACKERMAN: Good morning, your Honours. I appear here on
23 behalf of Esad Landzo. My co-counsel is Ms. Cynthia
24 McMurrey. Thank you.
25 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Thank you very much. Can we now have
1 the witness back?
2 (Witness entered court)
3 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Would you kindly remind the witness
4 that he is still on his oath?
5 THE REGISTRAR: Sir, I remind you that you are still under
7 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Yes, Ms. Residovic, continue with your
9 Cross-examination by MS. RESIDOVIC (continued)
10 MS. RESIDOVIC: Good morning, Mr. Dzajic.
11 A. Good morning.
12 Q. Yesterday, before our session ended, we have talked
13 about the fact that you have never been to either the
14 barracks or the prison in Celebici, is that correct?
15 A. Yes, that is correct.
16 Q. So, Mr. Dzajic, you do not have any personal knowledge of
17 what was happening, if anything, in that barracks and
18 what kinds of facilities were in there, is that correct?
19 A. Yes, it is.
20 Q. You have confirmed in front of this Tribunal that you
21 have not been an employee or the manager of the public
22 utilities company, Standard, in 1992, and that the facts
23 you gave you based on the memory of your predecessor,
24 Mr. Zebic, is that true?
25 A. Yes, it is.
1 Q. So, Mr. Dzajic, you cannot affirm in front of this
2 Tribunal that these data are 100 per cent true, correct?
3 A. Yes, it is.
4 Q. So you have never checked these data, have you, if not
5 from the memory and the notes from Mr. Zebic?
6 A. No, I have not checked anything, because I did not
7 inherit any records so I could not verify. At that
8 time, as I said, I had my work assignment at the company
9 at the factory Unis.
10 Q. Thank you. So in fact you cannot know at all neither
11 where nor how the persons from the certificate died, is
12 that true?
13 A. Yes, it is.
14 Q. Mr. Dzajic, you have heard that Mr. Delalic had left
15 Konjic towards the end of November, 1992 and at that
16 time in Konjic started some kind of a witch hunt. There
17 were claims that he went away with a Chetnik helicopter
18 and that he was on the Serb side. Did you hear about
20 A. Yes, there were rumours. The town was under a blockade,
21 blocked, so there were lots of rumours. As I said,
22 I had my work assignment, and I worked around the clock,
23 so I was not able to go out very much. There was also
24 lots of shellings. But such rumours could be heard
25 amongst the inhabitants of Konjic.
1 MS. RESIDOVIC: I have no more questions for you,
2 Mr. Dzajic. Thank you very much. I wish you a safe trip
3 home. Thank you. Thank you, your Honours.
4 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Any other cross-examination?
5 MR. OLUJIC: Your Honour, the Defence for Mr. Mucic has no
6 questions for Mr. Dzajic thank you.
7 MR. KARABDIC: Your Honours, I will briefly ask a few
9 Cross-examination by MR. KARABDIC
10 MR. KARABDIC: May I proceed, your Honours?
11 Mr. Dzajic, my name is Salih Karabdic and I am the
12 Defence counsel for Mr. Hazim Delic. I would like to ask
13 you a few questions. I would like you to bear in mind
14 the instructions which my learned friend Ms. Residovic
15 gave to you. Could you tell me, please, as a local from
16 Konjic, were you aware of the fact that in November 1990
17 elections were held for the Assembly and the Presidency
18 of Bosnia-Herzegovina and that the inhabitants of Konjic
19 voted in that election?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Do you know whether at that time elections were also
22 held for the Municipal Assembly of Konjic?
23 A. Yes, they were.
24 Q. On the same day?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. Were those elections free? That is, could all the
2 parties have their candidates? Could there be also
3 independent candidates? Were there also independent
5 A. Yes, there were.
6 Q. Was there, after these elections, also established a
7 Municipal Assembly of Konjic?
8 A. Yes, it was.
9 Q. Do you know whether it was constitute?
10 A. Yes, it was.
11 Q. Did it elect its President?
12 A. Yes, it did.
13 Q. Its Executive Council?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Has this executive committee taken over the power after
16 the elections?
17 A. Yes, it did.
18 Q. Could you, please, tell me whether, if you know, whether
19 that Assembly and these bodies, were they operational
20 towards the end of 1990, in 1991 and in 1992?
21 A. As far as I know, they held meetings up until -- I do
22 not know when the last meeting was held, but I knew they
23 could meet and they could be operational up until the
25 Q. Do you know that since the aggression and after the
1 immediate threat of war was proclaimed, do you know that
2 War Presidency was established in accordance with the
3 constitution of Bosnia-Herzegovina, and that the War
4 Presidency took over the function of the Municipal
5 Assembly, according to the constitution?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Did that Municipal Assembly, that is the War Presidency,
8 function in 1992 and during the war?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Since the elections, and during all those three years
11 I hereby have in mind, 1990, 1991 and 1992, the years we
12 are speaking of here, so was during all that time in
13 Konjic a legally -- a legally elected authority?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Did that authority establish that it has its internal
16 affairs, that means its police, a security?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Did it function, did it work from after the elections
19 and all throughout this first year of the war?
20 A. Yes, it did function, but I do not know well the
21 internal structure. But, yes, there was -- the police
22 did exist.
23 Q. Thank you very much. These are all my questions. Thank
24 you, your Honours.
25 MS. McMURREY: Your Honour, the Defence of Esad Landzo has
1 no questions of this witness but we would like to
2 express our appreciation for his appearing here.
3 Thank you very much, Mr. Dzajic.
4 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Any re-examination?
5 MR. NIEMANN: No re-examination, your Honour.
6 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Mr. Dzajic, I think that is all. Thank
7 you very much. We are very grateful you were here. So
8 you are discharged.
9 A. Thank you for the end of this thing now.
10 (The witness withdrew)
11 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: May we have your next witness?
12 MR. NIEMANN: Your Honour, the Prosecution calls General Arif
13 Pasalic. Your Honours, while the witness is coming into
14 the court he has indicated to me that he wishes to
15 address your Honours on the question of the subpoena.
16 He is reluctant to testify at the moment because of a
17 death in his family, and he says that he would be
18 prepared to testify after the 10th November. I have
19 told General Pasalic that this is a matter he can raise
20 with you, as he is under order of subpoena.
21 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Yes, let him come in. Yes, you can
22 swear the witness
23 GENERAL ARIF PASALIC, (sworn)
24 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: You may take your seat, please.
25 MR. NIEMANN: Sir, would you please state your full name?
1 A. My name is Arif Pasalic.
2 Q. I understand you wish to address some words to their
3 Honours in relation to the subpoena that has been issued
4 against you, is that correct?
5 A. Yes, that is correct.
6 Q. And you seek their Honours leave to address them?
7 A. Yes, I do.
8 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: What do you have to say to the Trial
10 A. What I would like to say is that I am very surprised
11 that a subpoena has been proclaimed, especially because
12 up until now I co-operated with the representatives of
13 The Hague Tribunal. My country did not contest that
14 I could co-operate with The Hague Tribunal, and what is
15 more I was even encouraged to do so.
16 I have recently had a death in my family. My
17 brother has died, and my brother lost his family members
18 during this war. In a letter I have asked for the
19 postponement of my testifying in front of this
20 Tribunal. I have asked for a reasonable delay, which
21 would correspond to our customs where we have a 40 day
22 period of mourning. By the subpoena my name appeared in
23 newspapers and in the media and I was exposed to certain
24 pressure. It appeared as if I was forced to come to The
25 Hague to testify. That is why I ask the court to
1 abolish this subpoena. That is all I have to say.
2 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Well, the subpoena was issued on the
3 application of the Prosecution, having given reasons why
4 it ought to be issued. One of the reasons was that
5 perhaps you were not co-operating sufficiently to be able
6 to attend at The Hague to testify. I am sure the
7 Prosecutor would have told you what prompted the issue
8 of the subpoena. Did you complain to him and tell him
9 this version of your story?
10 A. I said this to the Prosecutor, Mr. Grant, and I think
11 that Mr. Grant and all the others know that I did not
12 show any signs, or neither I have said, that I would not
13 come to testify.
14 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: The Trial Chamber is having this
15 information from you, quite distinct from what was told
16 to it at the application for the subpoena, and we base
17 authority to issue this subpoena on the facts available
18 to us at the time. Now, I refer to your unwillingness
19 to testify after having been here as to a religious
20 custom which excludes you from participation in public
21 matters, is that so?
22 A. I explained in a letter that in my -- that my people,
23 there is a custom that for 40 days I should be with my
24 family and not to participate in anything that is not
25 within the framework of our family. I simply ask for a
1 period of delay.
2 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: I think this is a little difficult for
3 the Trial Chamber, which also takes into account the
4 interests of other participants in the Prosecution
5 itself, and other matters affecting arrangement of court
6 sittings, other witnesses, and measures to facilitate
7 the trial. You are already here and I do not think it
8 would make much of a difference if your testimony goes
9 ahead. This is quite a different thing from involuntary
10 attendance to give evidence. You are not on pleasure
11 trip, you are here doing a duty towards justice, which
12 is not an infringement of any custom. You are being
13 helpful. I think your custom will take into account the
14 fact of your duty to us and your relevance in the
15 prosecution we are undertaking.
16 So please ignore this custom for the time being,
17 because I am sure it will not take too long for you to
18 complete your testimony and be discharged. You will go
19 back to your family within the week. I do not think the
20 Trial Chamber is supposed to grant that application for
21 you not to testify now because of other commitments in
22 the period you have suggested may be difficult for us to
23 accommodate that. So you might co-operate with the Trial
24 Chamber and testify.
25 So Mr. Niemann?
1 MS. RESIDOVIC: Your Honours, I know --
2 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: That was an application by this
4 MS. RESIDOVIC: I was just about to say that I know that it
5 is not my place to comment on this, but since the
6 witness has clearly stated that he never refused to come
7 to testify, I would like to know whether the court will
8 rule on his request for the annulment of the subpoena,
9 regardless of when this witness will testify. I am
10 asking for the benefit of the other witnesses too. I
11 have been reading the Sarajevo press, and I think that
12 the Trial Chamber must rule whether the subpoena was
13 improperly issued on the basis of incorrect information,
14 and that is why I should like the Trial Chamber to think
15 over the request of the witness and to convey its ruling
16 to the public. I am sorry for intervening, but I am
17 reading the media regularly, and the facts that were
18 conveyed to you and which served as a basis for your
19 decision appear to have been totally incorrect.
20 MR. NIEMANN: Your Honour, may I respond to that, your
21 Honours? Might I suggest to counsel that rather than
22 relying on the media she relies on the facts. Counsel
23 has been supplied this morning with at least some of the
24 material relied upon by the Prosecution. It is very
25 clear what information was relied upon. I suggest she
1 reads that, rather than come to this Chamber and start
2 suggesting things on the basis of things she picks up in
3 the media.
4 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Thank you. You may proceed.
5 Examination by MR. NIEMANN
6 MR. NIEMANN: Sir, when were you born?
7 A. On 31st August, 1943.
8 Q. And where was that? Where were you born?
9 A. I was born in Janjici near Zenica in Bosnia-Herzegovina.
10 Q. What is your ethnic background?
11 A. My background is Muslim or Bosniak.
12 Q. What is your profession?
13 A. I was an officer in the former Yugoslav People's Army
14 and I am now an officer in the Army of the Federation.
15 Q. How many years have you served as a military officer?
16 A. After my elementary education I joined the second
17 military school for non-commissioned officers and after
18 1962 I first started as a non-commissioned officer in
19 the former JNA and became an officer in 1967.
20 Q. What is your current rank and position in the army of
22 A. I have the rank of Brigadier General. I am now head of
23 the department for control in the joint command of the
24 Federation Army.
25 Q. Where were you stationed in April of 1992?
1 A. At the beginning of April 1992, I went to Mostar and
2 reported to the municipal staff of the Territorial
3 Defence of Mostar.
4 Q. And what was your rank at the time?
5 A. At the time, I was Lieutenant Colonel, a rank granted by
6 the Yugoslav People's Army.
7 Q. When you arrived at Mostar, what did you do then?
8 A. When I reported to the Mostar Territorial Defence, I was
9 adviser for military issues for about 15 days.
10 Q. And what was the purpose and function of that post that
11 you had with the Territorial Defence?
12 A. The function was to make suggestions regarding the
13 organisation and defence against the aggressor.
14 Q. Now, initially who was your Commander in the Mostar
15 Territorial Defence?
16 A. We did not have a Commander. There was the Chief-of-
17 Staff of the Territorial Defence, Hasim Semsudija.
18 Q. Did the structure of the Mostar Territorial Defence
19 undergo any changes while you were there?
20 A. We adjusted the structure of the Territorial Defence,
21 depending on the conditions of the Defence against the
22 aggressor, and shortly we formed units in local
23 communities. They were squads and later platoons, and
24 then we developed a system of defence of Mostar.
25 Q. Did your position in the Territorial Defence then
1 subsequently change? Did you take up another position
2 in the Mostar Territorial Defence?
3 A. On 13th May, I took over as Battalion Commander for the
4 Defence of Mostar and I held that post until 15th July,
5 1992, when I formed the first Mostar Brigade and was its
6 Commander. Later in November, to be more precise as of
7 17th November, I formed the 4th Corps of the army of
8 Bosnia-Herzegovina and was Commander.
9 Q. Do you know a person called Sefer Halilovic?
10 A. Sefer Halilovic at the time was Chief-of-Staff of the
11 Republican staff of the Territorial Defence. I met him
12 during the war, and I do know him.
13 Q. And do you know when he assumed the position of chief of
14 staff, approximately?
15 A. I think it was somewhere in May, I cannot recall
16 exactly, in May 1992.
17 Q. For the benefit of the Chamber, are you able to give the
18 Chamber some idea of the distance by road from Mostar to
19 Konjic, approximately?
20 A. From Mostar to Konjic, if you are thinking of the
21 locality Konjic near Busovaca, I think the distance is
22 about 200 kilometres. If you go via Sarajevo along the
23 Bosna River valley and the Lasva River valley to Kaonik
25 JUDGE JAN: You are talking of Konjic or some other town?
1 The pronunciation is different.
2 MR. NIEMANN: I do apologise, Konjic.
3 A. I apologise, because there is a locality called Kaonik
4 near Busovaca. As for the distance, it is 40 to 50
6 Q. In the early part of 1992 -- when I say the earlier
7 part, I am talking April through to July -- can you give
8 their Honours a general description of the conditions
9 affecting the army of Bosnia-Herzegovina and the
10 structure of it at that very early stage?
11 A. From April 1992; actually, after the recognition of
12 Bosnia-Herzegovina there was a Republican staff of
13 Territorial Defence based in Sarajevo. Outside Sarajevo
14 there were district and municipal staffs of Territorial
15 Defence, which were rather dispersed and disorganised,
16 because people of Serbian ethnicity and quite a number
17 of people of Croatian nationality had left these bodies,
18 so it was mostly Bosniaks who remained and in personnel
19 terms they were not very qualified.
20 In Mostar there was a municipal TO because the
21 district TO was disbanded, it fell apart. At the time,
22 we did not have a complete system of organisation or
23 control and command which was in the process of being
24 established. We did not have a constant system of
25 communications, because these were intercepted by the
1 sieges of Sarajevo and other towns. There were numerous
2 paramilitary formations and armed groups, because the
3 process of aggression was fierce, so that we had no
4 choice but to set up an organisation in the municipal
5 staff, in the form of an army, the beginnings of an
6 army, as best we could. With the republican TO staff we
7 maintained contact most frequently by radio links,
8 short-wave links and by messengers.
9 Q. What had happened to the former army of Yugoslavia, the
10 JNA, at this stage, in April or May 1992?
11 A. I abandoned the former Yugoslav People's Army at the
12 beginning of March and at the beginning of March
13 I joined the Territorial Defence. The former Yugoslav
14 People's Army had already changed its characteristics,
15 concepts and structure so that it no longer resembled
16 the Yugoslav People's Army such as it was in the former
17 Yugoslavia. In that system of control and demand there
18 were already evident signs and aspirations towards the
19 establishment of a greater Serbia with a high degree of
20 nationalism and hatred for other ethnic groups. People
21 who were not pro-Serbian were dismissed from positions
22 of command and who did not fit into this policy of a
23 greater Serbia. I was one of them. Assignments were
24 given exclusively to people that enjoyed trust, and
25 units were already being used to block certain roads and
1 communications to collect weapons from TO warehouses.
2 The shelling of Sarajevo had started, the shelling
3 of Mostar, road blocks were put up. In a word, a
4 chaotic situation in which you had two signs; on the one
5 side the former Yugoslav People's Army, which had
6 changed its insignia from the five-cornered star to the
7 coat of arms of the present Republika Srpska, and using
8 the armament, artillery and all the weapons that were
9 shelling communications, towns, villages, the innocent
10 and civilians. For me the Yugoslav People's Army no
11 longer existed. It had acquired a completely different
12 form of organisation, and had been transformed into an
13 army which was carrying out aggression against its own
15 Q. Now, the forces that were -- that did exist, that were
16 arranged against the former JNA; you mentioned, in your
17 evidence, that they equipped themselves with arms from
18 former -- from Territorial Defence barracks and so
19 forth. Where else were arms acquired from during that
20 period, by those forces?
21 A. There were no TO barracks. There were barracks of the
22 former JNA and there were warehouses or depots in which
23 the equipment and armaments of the TO were stored, but
24 these warehouses had mostly been emptied by the JNA,
25 which took all the equipment and armaments that it
1 could. We set up units in local communities, in
2 hamlets, villages. The units were equipped with the
3 armaments we had, hunting rifles and Carbines. In some
4 cases, TO staffs did acquire weapons, as was the case in
5 Zenica where they conditioned the surrender of armaments
6 to allow the troops of the former JNA to leave. In some
7 cases TO units physically captured weapons from the
8 remnants of the JNA and we purchased weapons with the
9 money that we had and that we received from individuals,
10 and we procured those weapons in various ways. I can
11 tell you only about the way that I got hold of weapons.
12 Q. Thank you. Now we mentioned earlier the position of
13 Mr. Sefer Halilovic, the Chief-of-Staff. What were his
15 A. Sefer Halilovic was Chief-of-Staff of the Supreme
16 Command. That is how his function was called at first
17 and he was the superior, or he had a command function in
18 relation to all TO structures in the territory of
20 Q. Now, to who did Mr. Halilovic report at that time? Who
21 was his superior?
22 A. The Supreme Commander of the Territorial Defence of
23 Bosnia-Herzegovina as a whole was President Izetbegovic,
24 according to the constitution and the law, so that he
25 probably reported to higher levels of authority.
1 Q. And are you able to indicate to us the -- probably you
2 cannot do it in relation to all of them, but the people
3 who were the immediate subordinates of Mr. Halilovic?
4 A. The subordinates of Chief Sefer Halilovic were all the
5 commanders of district staffs, all the commanders of
6 municipal staffs, commanders of units, independent
7 brigades, that were formed, and myself as Commander of
8 Battalion and Brigade were subordinated to the staff of
9 the Supreme Command. As the Corps Commander I was also
10 subordinate to the Supreme Command. This applied to all
11 the municipal district TO staffs, the commanders of
12 independent units, the commanders of certain groups; in
13 some cases they were called tactical groups. They were
14 all subordinate to the Commander.
15 Q. And I think you said that Mr. Halilovic was your
16 immediate superior in the early part of 1992?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Now, in the latter part of 1992, did you receive an
19 order in relation to the 4th Corps?
20 A. Somewhere around the 16th or 17th November I was in the
21 territory of Zenica municipality on assignment to form
22 the joint command of the army, consisting of the
23 Territorial Defence and the Croatian Defence Council.
24 I was informed that I should return urgently to the
25 command of the 1st Mostar Brigade, where I was given
1 orders to form the 4th Corps of the Army of the Republic
2 of Bosnia-Herzegovina. That 4th Corps was to unite all
3 the military organisations along the Neretva River
4 valley. This was on 17th November, 1992, that
5 I received orders to form the 4th Corp.
6 Q. Who issued that order to you?
7 A. The chief of staff of the Supreme Command, Sefer
9 Q. Are you able to tell us the geographical scope of the
10 new 4th Corps that was established? Can you tell us the
11 municipalities that it took in?
12 A. I was to organise and encompass TO units along the
13 Neretva River valley from the pass at Bradina to cover
14 the units of the Konjic municipalities, the
15 municipalities of Prozor, the municipality of Jablanica
16 and the municipality of Mostar, as well as the other
17 municipalities, Nevesinje, Gacko Stolac, Capljina, if
18 there were any TO units in those territories.
19 Q. How did you go about establishing the 4th Corps? What
20 did you do in relation to it, in compliance with your
22 A. The formation of the 4th Corps is a process which, within
23 the system of control and command, takes some time in
24 wartime; this period is much shorter than in peacetime.
25 In view of the situation that existed at the time, upon
1 receiving the order, I undertook to tour the units in
2 that territory to establish contact with the commanders
3 of units, to meet with them, and to brief them, if they
4 had not already been informed of that, that they were
5 now part of a new formation called the 4th Corp. I was
6 to organise those units, and if they were already
7 organised I was to establish a command structure. I was
8 appointed the Commander, and I had a chief of staff
9 appointed to me; as for all the others, I had to find
10 the appropriate people and to give them assignments
11 which had to be verified by the Supreme Command staff.
12 Q. Sir, did you know a man by the name of Zejnil Delalic?
13 A. Yes, I did. Actually I met Zejnil Delalic during the
15 Q. Can you describe the circumstances of how you came to
16 meet him?
17 A. I do not know the exact date but I think it was the
18 second half of the summer, after fighting in the south
19 against the aggressor forces and the liberation of a
20 part of Mostar. I met with Mr. Zejnil Delalic in Konjic
21 once, once not of Konjic, I cannot exactly remember the
22 locality, it was in the mountains, and once in
24 Q. When you met him, do you know what position he held?
25 A. I think that at the time he held the position of
2 Q. What do you understand by the term "co-ordinator"? What
3 is that function?
4 A. If we wished to define in general terms the term
5 "co-ordinator" in a military sense, it is a man who is
6 supposed to co-ordinate measures, procedures, involved in
7 carrying out certain assignments. I do not know exact
8 what Mr. Zejnil Delalic as a co-ordinator had assigned to
9 him. This must have been determined by whoever it was
10 that appointed him co-ordinator.
11 Q. In the former JNA I think you said you had similar
12 positions. What role did the co-ordinators play in the
13 military sense in the former JNA?
14 A. The former Yugoslav People's Army did not have this
15 permanent post of co-ordinator. These were only
16 provisional positions. A certain person may be
17 appointed to co-ordinate a particular activity, but there
18 was no permanent position within a formation that was
19 called a "co-ordinator". Such an appointment would be
20 issued on a temporary basis, because the word itself
21 implies the co-ordination among one, two or three
22 parties, or people in a certain assignment, so that in
23 the former JNA occasionally a co-ordinator would be
24 appointed to carry out definite assignments.
25 Q. And in terms of the role that Mr. Delalic played as
1 co-ordinator, do you know any details of the functions he
2 performed in this role?
3 A. I do not know which details I could describe for you.
4 I met Zejnil as a highly respected man who played a very
5 noteworthy role in the resistance; a man who in Konjic
6 municipality was one of the protagonists in putting up
7 resistance against the aggressor.
8 Q. Do you know whether he performed a military or a
9 civilian role?
10 A. In the war it is difficult to separate the military from
11 the civilian activities, particularly in the kind of
12 aggression that we had in Bosnia-Herzegovina, so that
13 both civilian and military tasks were all in the service
14 of defence. As far as I know, Zejnil Delalic
15 co-ordinated both civilian and military structures that
16 existed in Konjic at the time. My contact with Zejnil
17 was co-ordination and co-operation between me as Brigade
18 Commander and him as Zejnil Delalic, a co-ordinator, to
19 the extent to which we could assist one another in the
20 exchange of opinions, advice, or in the form of any kind
21 of material assistance.
22 Q. Might the witness be shown Exhibit 67, please? Your
23 Honours, I have made copies of these exhibits, so that
24 if your Honours do not have copies of them you can look
25 at it. I have also made a copy for the Defence. I ask
1 that the witness be shown the exhibit. I am not asking
2 they be marked, it is only to assist your Honours while
3 we are going through these things.
4 General, would you look at the document that you
5 are now shown, Exhibit 67, and read through it, if you
6 would, for me, please, and then I will ask a question of
8 A. In the heading it says:
9 "War Presidency of Bosnia-Herzegovina, Konjic
10 municipality, number 01-21/92. Date: May 2nd, 1992. On
11 the basis of the decision of the War Presidency of
12 Herzegovina" --
13 Q. If I may interrupt you. If you could read it quietly to
14 yourself. If you could read it to yourself, so that you
15 can be familiar.
16 A. I apologise. I have read it.
17 Q. Thank you. General, are the details of that exhibit,
18 that special authorisation, consistent with what you
19 understand to be the role of co-ordinator, as you have
20 described it in your evidence?
21 A. You asked me my opinion about co-ordinators, and
22 I conveyed it to you. But this is a document giving
23 certain authorisations to the co-ordinator. The
24 President of the War Presidency and Commander of the
25 military staff are authorising, giving certain
1 authorisations to the co-ordinator, by means of this
3 These organisations are reduced to three points.
4 First, he is authorised to lead in negotiations and
5 concluding contracts between the main headquarters of
6 the region of Herceg-Bosna and all representatives to
7 conclude all kind of agreements on acquisition of
8 weapons and joint actions of troops on the front. Those
9 are the authorisations given to him by the body that
10 issued this authorisation and it is valid for six
12 Q. Is it consistent with what you understand the role of
13 this particular person at that time, as you understand
14 the structure?
15 A. The structure of Territorial Defence at the time was as
16 I described it to you; and this authorisation, I am not
17 competent to answer the question whether this
18 authorisation was in the spirit of the valid laws. It
19 is up to the personnel giving the authorisation to
21 JUDGE JAN: This might be misleading. I think this document
22 bears the date "2nd May". We have the notification by
23 which he was appointed the co-ordinator; it is much later
24 date, so this is nothing to do with his duty as a
1 MR. NIEMANN: Perhaps I will move on to that. Perhaps that
2 exhibit might be handed back, and you could look at
3 Exhibit 68, if you would.
4 A. I have read it.
5 Q. General, having looked at Exhibit 68, is the appointment
6 that you see there consistent with what you understood
7 to be the way matters were proceeding, particularly in a
8 military sense, in the early part of 1992, May 1992?
9 A. I do not know what you are implying exactly.
10 Q. Well, I will be more specific. The appointment of
11 Zejnil Delalic is by the President of the Presidency; is
12 that something you would consider to be consistent with
13 the circumstances of the revolution of the army of
14 Bosnia-Herzegovina at that particularly early period in
15 time, namely May, 1992?
16 A. This is a decision, or rather a document in the form of
17 a decision, of the President of the War Presidency of
18 Konjic municipality, Dr. Rusmir Hadzihuseinovic. He took
19 the decision and it is stated in the preamble of the
20 basis of a session held in Konjic, which means that the
21 municipality, as the civilian authority, had decided to
22 appoint Zejnil Delalic as co-ordinator of the defence
23 forces in Konjic municipality. The President of the
24 municipality and the competent bodies can answer the
25 question as to whether this was consistent or not.
1 If it is called "War Presidency", then it must
2 engage in the question of defence against aggression,
3 and the President of the municipality regulated the
4 matter in the way shown in this document.
5 Q. And if you look at the top of the page, it says, does it
6 not, that it was the War Presidency?
7 A. Yes, that is what it says.
8 Q. Thank you. Now, the President -- just before we leave
9 that document, the President of the War Presidency that
10 is mentioned there, Dr. Rusmir Hadzihuseinovic. Did you
11 know that person at all?
12 A. Yes, I did.
13 Q. When did you meet him?
14 A. In the course of the war.
15 Q. And what position did he hold when you met him?
16 A. He was President of the municipality.
17 Q. And what did you understand to be his responsibilities
18 as President of the municipality?
19 A. At the time, as Battalion and Brigade Commander, I did
20 not even try to comprehend his competencies. I was
21 concerned with military issues, and my co-operation with
22 the President of the municipality of Konjic and other
23 Presidents was only to the extent that it contributed to
24 the struggle against the aggressor.
25 Q. And to what extent was that?
1 A. If you are thinking specifically of the President of the
2 municipality of Konjic, I met with him several times.
3 These were meetings, as in the case with Mr. Zejnil
4 Delalic, when we discussed the situation, how to resist
5 the aggressor, what chances of defence there were. We
6 were most concerned by supplies. We had the men, the
7 manpower, but we did not have clothing or food or
8 equipment; and we were exposed to aggression. We asked
9 the President of the municipality to provide the
10 conditions for us to be able to fight.
11 Q. Is there any distinction between a President of a
12 municipality and a War President?
13 A. The name itself is indicative of the difference. The
14 President of the municipality may also be the President
15 of the War Presidency and, as its name indicates, it
16 probably decides about crucial matters in times of war.
17 Questions which are of interest to the municipality,
18 these are probably regulated by the constitution and the
20 Q. They may or may not have been at that time, is that
21 correct, regulated by the laws?
22 A. I am not competent to say whether they were or not, in
23 view of the fact that it was a state of war and there
24 were probably possibilities to do things pursuant to the
25 law and some things even against the law.
1 Q. Apart from the municipality of Konjic, did you have
2 dealings yourself with Presidents of War Presidencies in
3 other municipalities?
4 A. I did have contacts with the Presidents of the
5 municipalities of Mostar, Capljina, Stolac, almost with
6 all the Presidents in our area of responsibility where
7 we were stationed.
8 Q. And was the nature of the business that you had, the
9 business dealings that you had with these Presidents,
10 similar to the nature of the dealings you had with the
11 President of the War Presidency in Konjic?
12 A. Yes, virtually the same. These contacts were mostly
13 limited to defence from aggression.
14 Q. Terms of their authority, as far as you understand; what
15 authority did they have over military matters, in the
16 early part of 1992, as opposed to when, perhaps later?
17 A. I do not know what was their authority, their
18 competence, but I, as Commander of that unit, that is
19 the Brigade and the Corps, had the responsibility towards
20 my unit. It was the framework of their organisation,
21 and I had to report and was responsible to the
22 headquarters, the staff of the Supreme Command and I do
23 not know about their responsibilities.
24 Q. I think you said earlier in your evidence that one of
25 the priorities in that early part of the war was that
1 acquisition of evidence, and you gave some evidence
2 about that, in terms of it being seized from various
3 places; and in addition to that it being acquired, as
5 I would ask you to look, if you would, for me,
6 please, at document MFI121. I also have a copy of this
7 document here.
8 General, this is a hand-written document. It may
9 be a little difficult to read. I would ask you if you,
10 would, please -- it should be a hand-written document.
11 MR. O'SULLIVAN: Your Honours, may we be informed as to what
12 this document is? I do not recognise MFI121 as an
14 MR. NIEMANN: Perhaps the General can be given the original,
15 not the English version.
16 THE REGISTRAR: I only have the English version in the
17 records, so I will mark the Croatian version and give it
18 to the witness.
19 MR. NIEMANN: I have provided a copy, I hope, to the
21 MR. O'SULLIVAN: May we see that, please?
22 MR. NIEMANN: Might one copy be given to their Honours, and
23 at least one copy to the Defence?
24 MR. O'SULLIVAN: Your Honours, we object to this witness
25 being shown this document. It has not been admitted
1 into evidence. The document is from the seized
2 documents from Vienna which is not yet proven.
3 Therefore, it is inadmissible.
4 MR. NIEMANN: Your Honours, it is a standard procedure for
5 documents to be shown to a number of witnesses at any
6 stage in the proceedings and for the documents to be
7 identified. If the General is in a position to speak to
8 the document and express some view about it, then it is
9 entirely appropriate.
10 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Proceed.
11 MR. NIEMANN: Thank you.
12 General, have you had an opportunity to read that?
13 A. No, not up to now, but I have read it now.
14 Q. And are you able to express any view, having regard to
15 the circumstances that prevailed at that time, that is
16 on 7th May, 1992, as to the nature of this document.
17 MR. O'SULLIVAN: Your Honour, I --
18 JUDGE JAN: Has this document been shown to be in the
19 handwriting of Zejnil Delalic?
20 MR. NIEMANN: It has not been established as yet. It was a
21 document that was seized at his premises, though. The
22 document, your Honours, speaks for itself, and it
23 relates to the relevant period of time. It was located
24 at the premises of the accused Zejnil Delalic. We have
25 already heard evidence of the processes by which it was
1 obtained, through the officers of the Austrian police.
2 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: I am not sure. I do not remember any
3 evidence of this having been recovered anywhere.
4 JUDGE JAN: Was this document addressed to the General?
5 MR. NIEMANN: No.
6 JUDGE JAN: Did he see it ever before?
7 MR. NIEMANN: No.
8 JUDGE JAN: What are you going to ask him about it?
9 MR. NIEMANN: I am going to ask him whether this document was
10 consistent with the processes at the time for the
11 acquisition of weapons.
12 JUDGE JAN: That is a matter for argument. You have shown
13 him the document of 2nd May and asked for his opinion.
14 He has not received this document. You have not shown
15 it was in the handwriting of the accused.
16 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: I am not sure that he is introducing it
17 for that purpose at this moment.
18 MR. NIEMANN: I am not attempting to establish that it was
19 written by the accused. There are two issues here, your
20 Honour; there is the issue of admissibility, and there
21 is the issue of relevance.
22 JUDGE JAN: You are asking him whether this document is
23 consistent with his duties under the order of 2nd May.
24 That is a question of opinion.
25 MR. NIEMANN: No, I am not. I am asking him whether this
1 document is consistent with the processes that were in
2 operation in terms of the acquisition of weapons, which
3 he has already attested to.
4 MR. MORAN: I would object that he is being asked to testify
5 from a document which is not in evidence at all. It has
6 been identified, but nobody has ever moved to admit it.
7 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: I am not sure you start speaking to a
8 document until he has said anything about it. He has
9 not said anything. He will show it to him, if he can
10 say anything and you take it for its relevance, that is
12 JUDGE JAN: You really ask him for the construction of the
13 document, you really ask him that. Consistent with his
15 MR. NIEMANN: I am merely asking whether this is a document
16 consistent with what was happening at the time.
17 JUDGE JAN: It is a construction of the document anyway.
18 MR. NIEMANN: If I am to establish relevance, your Honour.
19 Otherwise I am in a catch-22. I am in a situation where
20 I am not allowed to show its relevance and I am not
21 allowed to admit.
22 JUDGE JAN: I am just asking the nature of the questions you
23 are putting to him. This, whether this document is
24 consistent. You are asking him really to construct this
1 MR. NIEMANN: I am not asking him to construct it. I am
2 asking whether it is consistent with the sort of
3 processes in operation at the time.
4 JUDGE JAN: To do that, you will have to raise construction
5 of the document.
6 MR. NIEMANN: That is not impermissible when it comes to the
7 establishment of relevance. If I try to tender it now
8 I am confronted with the issue of relevance, I assume,
9 unless there is no objection. If there is no objection
10 I will tender it. So if it is admitted into evidence
11 I will move on. That is all I am seeking to do.
12 MR. O'SULLIVAN: With all due respect to my learned friend,
13 the issue of reliability has not been established in
14 this document. We have been through about the seizure,
15 the nature, the provenance of these documents has not
16 been proven, the authenticity has not been proven.
17 Those, in my submission, are the threshold questions to
18 admissibility. That must be proven first.
19 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Yes, you can proceed. It is only
20 whether in fact you got it from anywhere, if that is the
21 case how reliable might be relevant.
22 MR. NIEMANN: General, have you had an opportunity to read
23 that document?
24 A. Yes, I have read it.
25 Q. And do you understand what the nature of the document
1 is? What do you understand it relates to, from your
2 reading of it?
3 A. If you mean the contents, yes, it is.
4 Q. And what is your understanding of what the document
5 relates to?
6 A. The only thing I could do is to read it aloud to the
7 Tribunal. It simply relates to what is written in it.
8 Q. I do not want you to read it out, if you would not
9 mind. I would rather you just tell me what you
10 understand, what the contents of the document mean to
12 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honour, this is getting kind of strange.
13 He is being asked, now, to say what he thinks an
14 unauthenticated document, with no proof as to where it
15 came from, whether it is authentic or not, whether it
16 was written by Zejnil Delalic or not, or who it was
17 written by. He is now being asked to give this Tribunal
18 his opinion about what it might mean. How can that be
19 helpful, how can it be relevant? I object.
20 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: I did not understand it to be that.
21 I believe he is trying to bring it to fall within the
22 pattern. If he does then he might go for it; if it does
23 not then I fear it might not be easy to establish then
24 he cannot bring it in. It is the pattern of the
25 procedure for those working within a particular
1 formula. This is what he is trying to establish. He is
2 trying to jump before he gets to -- until he attempts to
3 link it with anybody. I do not know whether he can do
5 MR. ACKERMAN: I am in total agreement with your Honour.
6 Those would be the steps, but they are not the ones
7 being taken. The General has just said the only way he
8 can explain it to you is to read it to you because it
9 only has meaning to him in the language it contains,
10 that it has no other meaning to him. I think he has
11 already said, "I cannot draw any conclusions about this,
12 beyond what it says on its face", and on its face, as
13 far as we understand now, it has no authenticity. So
14 I cannot imagine that it has any value.
15 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: At the moment, the witness has answered
16 nothing to do with it, therefore, so I think that --
17 MR. MORAN: Excuse me, your Honour. There is one other
18 problem, also. This witness is getting very close to
19 testifying as an expert witness. He has never been
20 designated as such. I understand by the very nature of
21 his testimony he is going to call upon his expertise as
22 a military officer, but when you start asking questions,
23 "what is your opinion about this" ...
24 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: I think you are getting it a bit too
25 awkward. When a General testifies about formations I do
1 not know what else you can say, whether you designate
2 him as an expert or not, a General is competent to
3 disclose things about the formation of any army.
4 MR. MORAN: Your Honour, yes.
5 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: So he is competent to do so.
6 MR. MORAN: We are not contesting his competency, we are
7 contesting his designation as an expert under the order
8 of the Tribunal.
9 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: I do not think that will matter. Go
11 MR. NIEMANN: Again, looking at that document, are you able,
12 or are you not in a position to say whether it is
13 consistent with your understanding of the way procedures
14 were in operation in the very early part of 1992.
15 MR. O'SULLIVAN: I object, your Honour. That is the previous
16 question that was answered: "The only thing I can do is
17 read it aloud to the Tribunal". It simply relates to
18 what is in it. The same question has been answered by
19 this witness, your Honour.
20 MR. NIEMANN: I have asked him to explain, your Honour.
21 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Is that your answer? Let us hear your
22 answer. If you are unable to fit it into any pattern,
23 then there it ends.
24 A. In the period from which this document is dated, I had
25 no superiority from any kinds of units on the territory
1 of the Konjic municipality. The only thing I can say
2 about this document is what it appears to me, according
3 to its form and its contents.
4 MR. NIEMANN: And can you tell us what it appears to you,
5 according to its form and contents?
6 MR. O'SULLIVAN: I renew my objection, your Honour. He is
7 asking the witness to say what the document says. He is
8 asking him to speculate on what it might mean.
9 MR. NIEMANN: It is not a question of speculation. The
10 witness has already attested to the procedures in
11 operation at the time in relation to the contents of
12 what this document relates to. I mean, what the Defence
13 are trying to do is they are trying to prevent any
14 evidence whatsoever coming out on these documents so
15 that your Honours are totally left in the dark about
16 what they contain. Then when the Prosecution seeks to
17 tender them they are going to jump up and immediately
18 say, "they are not relevant, your Honours have heard no
19 evidence as to relevance. " That is what they are trying
20 to achieve. That is why they are objecting now to any
21 discussion on it. In my submission that is an
22 impermissible way to deal with it. The witnesses are
23 entitled to give evidence which goes to the relevance of
24 the document. That relevance is to be taken into
25 consideration when we seek to tender it and admit it as
1 an exhibit.
2 We are not trying to seek to admit as an exhibit
3 through this witness. This is not the witness through
4 which this document will be tendered. It is entirely
5 permissible for the witness to speak to the document. It
6 is marked for identification. When it comes to be
7 tendered, your Honours, it is not taking only into
8 consideration what has happened at that moment but
9 everything that has happened prior, in relation to that
11 If this is ruled an improper procedure, then what
12 the Defence can successfully do is simply sit there and
13 object to any discussion about a document, and then at
14 the end of the day say that your Honours must not accept
15 it because it is not relevant. Truly, in that position
16 your Honours would have not have heard any evidence as
17 to its relevance. The only thing that you could then
18 hear is evidence from me at the bar table trying to
19 explain to you why it is relevant.
20 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honours, let me say first of all that
21 I resent the implication that there is an obstructionist
22 conspiracy going on over on this side of the room.
23 There is not. What each of us over here is doing is
24 what we are required ethically to do, and that is to try
25 to make certain that the Rules of Evidence are followed
1 in the presentation of evidence in a criminal case
2 against persons accused of very serious matters. That
3 is all we are doing, that is all we have ever done and
4 that is all we will ever do. If that turns out to be
5 obstructionist that is because of the Rules of Evidence,
6 not because of any tactics we are taking.
7 MR. NIEMANN: It may be the Rules of Evidence of the United
8 States, but it is not the Rules of Evidence that have
9 been applied in numerous proceedings before this
10 Chamber. In my submission, your Honour, it is
11 appropriate that we refer to the Rules of Evidence of
12 this Chamber when dealing and addressing this question.
13 One of the primary bases upon which evidence is admitted
14 is relevance. It is 11.30, your Honours.
15 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: The Tribunal will rise and then come
16 back at 12 o'clock.
17 (11.30 am)
18 (Short break)
19 (12.00 pm)
20 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Take your seat, please.
21 Kindly remind him that he is still on his oath.
22 THE REGISTRAR: Sir, I remind you that you are still under
24 MR. NIEMANN: General Pasalic, before the break we were
25 looking at document number 121. I had not received an
1 answer from you in relation to the question that I put
2 before the objection was raised; and perhaps I might ask
3 that question again. Are you able to say, yes or no,
4 whether or not this document is consistent with your
5 understanding of how matters were proceeding at that
6 particular time, with respect to the acquisition of
7 equipment and arms.
8 MR. O'SULLIVAN: Your Honour, I object. This witness has
9 stated he was not in Konjic municipality on the date
10 indicated on this document.
11 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: The question is not limited to that
12 municipality. It is a pattern.
13 MR. O'SULLIVAN: Your Honours have not ruled on the objection
14 before the break.
15 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: No, I do not rule on what you are
16 saying now. I am only saying if he asks him a question
17 which shows a pattern, it need not be confined to that
18 municipality. If he can answer let him answer.
19 MR. O'SULLIVAN: Your Honour, under the rulings of this
20 Tribunal we are asking this witness to look at a
21 document which is not admitted into this evidence, which
22 is contrary to our Rules and the ruling of this
24 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: It is not contrary to our rules. Let
25 him please answer.
1 Yes, can you answer the question.
2 MR. NIEMANN: General, can you answer the question, please?
3 A. Yes, I can answer. I can say that there were similar,
4 or correspondence done in this way, and work done in
5 this way.
6 Q. Thank you. Perhaps that document might be handed back
7 to the Registrar. I would ask you to look at the next
8 document, if you will. Might a copy be given to their
9 Honours and to the Defence as well? It is document
10 122. Can the original of that exhibit be taken out? I
11 have a copy here for their Honours, and for ...
12 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honour, I am a bit confused about
13 numbers. Are 121 and 122 court exhibit numbers, or do
14 those refer to something else, your Honours?
15 MR. NIEMANN: They are court exhibit numbers, your Honour.
16 MR. ACKERMAN: Thank you.
17 MR. NIEMANN: Perhaps before I just take you to that
18 document, General, can you tell me: were you aware of
19 the way that documents were brought into Bosnia at that
20 time, during the early part of 1992, in May/June of
21 1992? How were they actually brought? That is
22 documents others than those that were seized from the
23 opposition, or seized from JNA warehouses, and the
24 like. How were they brought into the theatre of the
25 conflict? Are you aware of that?
1 A. I do not understand the question. You speak about the
2 documents that were brought in or something else,
3 because you asked me about how were these documents
4 brought in, as far as I could understand.
5 Q. I do apologise. That was a mistake on my part. I said
6 before I would take you to the document. I wanted to
7 ask you a question about the movement of weapons and
8 equipment for the army of -- the emerging army of
9 Bosnia-Herzegovina. The equipment that was acquired
10 from outside of the former Yugoslavia, how was that
11 brought into the theatre of the conflict, as opposed to
12 documents that were seized in Bosnia? Are you aware of
14 A. I am sorry, but you are speaking about the -- how were
15 the, was the equipment brought in, and the documents
16 that were seized. I can only say how I , as a Commander
17 of the Battalion Brigade, and Corps, how I acquired the
18 armament, and all the armament that was acquired for the
19 whole Bosnia-Herzegovina, it is not what was within my
20 competence. I can only tell you how I worked. I bought
21 for the money that I had and the money was given as a
22 donation, and I would buy rifles and other types of
23 armaments, mostly lighter weapons; and it bought it for
24 my men. I bought it from the civilians who dealt in the
25 buying of arms and I also bought it from enemy soldiers
1 who would engage in such activities. I simply paid for
2 that armament, and all the rest of our armament was
3 acquired as war went on. Some of the armament was made
4 by ourselves in our makeshift workshops. I can only
5 speak about how I did it.
6 Q. In your experience, did you ever become aware of weapons
7 being purchased outside of the former Yugoslavia, for
8 the army of Bosnia-Herzegovina?
9 A. When you receive some kind of weapons if it came from
10 outside the territory of Bosnia-Herzegovina you probably
11 conclude to the fact that it has been purchased
12 somewhere. Bosnia-Herzegovina would not have been able
13 to defend itself without receiving weapons; and I do not
14 know how it did. I can only say how I got some weapons
15 from my superior commands. They would tell me on such
16 and such a date you would receive weapons and they would
17 say go, take, you would receive it from such and such a
18 person, and so on.
19 Q. If weapons and goods, it does not have to be only
20 weapons, but if weapons and goods were to be brought
21 into the theatre of operation, and when I speak of the
22 theatre of operation, I am speaking in general terms in
23 relation to Mostar, Konjic, right down to perhaps
24 Bradina, in all those positions in that area, where the
25 army of Bosnia-Herzegovina was operational, if arms were
1 to be brought in by road, are you familiar, having
2 regard to the conditions prevailing at the time, namely
3 May or June of 1992, are you able to say how those --
4 that equipment, whether the arms or other equipment,
5 would have been brought into that particular area, by
6 what route?
7 A. The aggression on Bosnia-Herzegovina was done by the
8 former JNA, and we had to turn ourselves to the
9 territory where there were no soldiers who were our
10 aggressors. That was towards the west. So from the
11 territory of Bosnia-Herzegovina the Croatian Defence
12 Council, we -- that is how we received our weapons, and
13 food. There were various routes, various roads, that
14 entered into Mostar coming from either Ploce or Listica,
15 or Prozor. There are 10 or 15 roads leading into
16 Mostar. What arrives via what route, it is difficult to
17 say, but that is the general direction where most of it
19 Q. And at that time, the forces of Croatia in
20 Bosnia-Herzegovina in particular were allies of the
21 government of Bosnia-Herzegovina, is that true?
22 A. If by that you mean the forces of the HVO, the Croatian
23 Defence Council was a military component recognised
24 under the constitution of Bosnia-Herzegovina. It was on
25 equal terms, just as the Territorial Defence, and then
1 the BiH army. They were the two components. We worked
2 together and we fought together against the forces of
3 the aggressors, of the former JNA and the newly formed
4 Serb army.
5 Q. Thank you, General. Would you look, please, at a
6 document marked Exhibit 122 for me, please.
7 MR. O'SULLIVAN: I have to object, your Honour. This is a
8 hand-written note. There is no date. There is no
9 indication this document makes any reference to the
10 relevant period of these proceedings.
11 MR. NIEMANN: Well, your Honours, I think that in relation to
12 that objection this document from a reading of it
13 provides an indication of the appropriate date. I say that
14 for the following reason: your Honours, we know that the
15 acquisition of arms and equipment at the very early
16 period of time was a matter of high priority for the
17 army of the government of Bosnia-Herzegovina, and we
18 also know at that stage that there was a militarial
19 licence, if I might call it that, between the army of
20 the government of Bosnia-Herzegovina and the HVO. In my
21 submission, even though the document itself, it is true,
22 does not express a date, it itself indicates the
23 relevance period of time having regard to what we know
24 already on the evidence, on the record, of what was
25 happening on the ground at that particular time.
1 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: It is very difficult to reconcile --
2 actually, to whom is it addressed? And for what
4 MR. NIEMANN: It appears, your Honours, to be addressed to
5 Mr. Zebic, a General by the name of Salman. It relates
6 to the very questions I have just been speaking to with
7 the witness.
8 MR. O'SULLIVAN: Your Honour, we are into the very problem of
9 the authenticity and reliability, which was our
10 objection before the break. Until that is established,
11 the unreasonable doubt, as your Honours have ruled it
12 must be. Our submission is that these documents --
13 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Zejnil will be coming in to tell us
14 what it is all about, because there might be some
16 MR. NIEMANN: There may well indeed. I am not seeking to
17 tender it at the stage. I am merely asking questions
18 about this document, the cumulative effect of which
19 I will ultimately argue goes to the question of its
20 admissibility. This objection may well be appropriate
21 if I was seeking to have the document accepted into
22 evidence at this point in time. I am not.
23 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: You can proceed with your question.
24 MR. NIEMANN: General, would you please -- have you managed
25 to read through the document you were just shown, that
1 is Exhibit 122?
2 A. Yes, I have read it.
3 Q. And are you able to express a view, yes or no, whether
4 it appears to be consistent with your understanding of
5 how goods for military purposes were brought through to
6 the theatre of military operations in the early part of
8 A. I am a soldier, and officer of the Army of the
9 Federation at that time, the army of Bosnia-Herzegovina,
10 and what I understand are military documents. The only
11 thing that I can say about this document is just as much
12 as I could say with the previous document, hand-written,
13 and I can only speak on the basis of the contents.
14 Whether the contents reflect the situation on the ground
15 is something that I have already said. The equipment
16 and the weapons were purchased in the best way we could
17 purchase it, and this is a way in which it was -- it was
18 sometimes done.
19 Q. Thank you. Might that document be returned, please?
20 Would you now -- might the witness be shown document,
21 exhibit 123?
22 General Pasalic, that is a two page document that
23 you have been shown there. Could you kindly read
24 through it, please, page 1, and then over on to the
25 second page?
1 A. I have had a look at it.
2 Q. Thank you. General, do you notice that it is dated at
3 the top of the page --
4 MR. ACKERMAN: Could we at least wait until we have had an
5 opportunity to look at it before any substantive
6 questions are asked about it?
7 MR. NIEMANN: General, do you notice at the top of the
8 document that it is dated? Do you see a date that
9 appears there?
10 A. Yes, I can see a date.
11 Q. And on the second page of the document there is a list
12 of materials mentioned. Do you see that?
13 A. Yes, I can.
14 Q. Do you recognise what is being described there?
15 A. On the second page?
16 Q. Yes.
17 A. Yes. Yes. I know what is written in it. I -- yes,
18 that is a matter I do understand.
19 Q. And is that military equipment that is being referred to
21 A. Yes, it is.
22 Q. And from your knowledge of what was happening in the
23 theatre at that particular point in time, was this the
24 sort of equipment that was sought to be acquired by the
25 army of Bosnia-Herzegovina?
1 A. I do not know who acquired that equipment, and for whom,
2 but this is military equipment.
3 Q. And do you know whether or not the army of the
4 government of Bosnia-Herzegovina was fully equipped and
5 therefore not in need of any of this material mentioned,
6 or was this the sort of material that the army was
7 seeking to acquire at that particular time?
8 A. I ask you, I am not here, please, as a witness who is
9 competent for the army. What I can say is -- as a
10 witness of what happened in 1992 as a Commander of
11 Brigade Battalion and a Corp. This equipment is
12 military equipment and I also needed such type of
13 equipment at that time.
14 Q. So it was not as though there was a surplus of these
15 various types of rocket launchers?
16 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: He has explained that he was not a
17 general witness for that type of answer, so if he gives
18 you an answer which fits what was possible, I suppose
19 that is all he can say.
20 MR. NIEMANN: I understand your Honour. I will not pursue
21 that matter.
22 General, just looking at this particular document,
23 and being aware of the prevailing conditions in terms of
24 how the emerging army of Bosnia-Herzegovina was
25 operating at that time, and from your knowledge of that,
1 is this document consistent with the procedures that
2 were in place in some areas in relation to the acquiring
3 of equipment, military equipment?
4 A. In a certain way, it is.
5 Q. Thank you. Might that document be returned?
6 Now, to your knowledge, General, are you aware
7 whether Mr. Zejnil Delalic continued to perform the role
8 of co-ordinator for all of the period of time that you
9 knew he was there or did, so far as you know, his role
10 change subsequently, during the course of 1992?
11 A. I know that Zejnil Delalic, when I met him, had the role
12 of the co-ordinator. I cannot tell you the date from
13 when to when, but I knew Zejnil Delalic as a person to
14 whom I could contact when in matters concerning the
15 fighting against the aggressor. Later on, he was linked
16 with a formation subsequently formed, which was a
17 tactical group. When he was in charge of the tactical
18 group, I do not know the exact date.
19 Q. And what do you know of the establishment of the
20 tactical group? What was the purpose of its
21 establishment? Do you know?
22 A. Do you mean the tactical group as a general term, or the
23 specific tactical group?
24 Q. I think at the moment I will ask you about this
25 particular tactical group. What was it formed for?
1 A. Tactical group on the territory of the municipality of
2 Konjic, Jablanica, Prozor and Vakuf was established in
3 order to organise the resistance against the aggressor,
4 that is the Serb and Montenegro aggressor, which was the
5 remains of the former JNA and the Serb army.
6 Q. What was the military advantage, if any, of establishing
7 a tactical group? In other words, why was a tactical
8 group established? Do you know?
9 A. I can answer in a general way. Tactical groups are
10 transitional formations, temporary formations whereby
11 there you would form a group, a certain number of units,
12 in order for those units to perform a particular task.
13 Once the task has been accomplished the tactical group
14 has no need to continue to exist. In military terms a
15 tactical group is an organised group of units with a
16 very specific task. Once the task is completed it stops
18 Q. What is the advantages of forming a tactical group?
19 A. The person who forms a tactical group has a reason to do
20 that, and he specifies the tasks of that tactical
21 group. If it was formed in this case to engage in
22 defensive operations for the purpose of protection from
23 aggression, then that is its task, and duty to carry out
24 that task.
25 Q. Now the tactical group that formed in the -- that was
1 formed and centred on the municipality of Konjic, do you
2 know what military objective there was in the
3 establishment of this particular tactical group?
4 A. I think -- I do not know what the specific goal was, but
5 I think that it was for us to organise ourselves in the
6 struggle against the aggressor.
7 Q. Would it have assisted in the strengthening and
8 co-ordinating of the military facility that was available
9 to the army of Bosnia-Herzegovina?
10 A. A tactical group is a military formation of a temporary
11 nature. Co-ordination is an activity that is engaged
12 in. A tactical group as a provisional military
13 formation cannot engage in defensive operations without
14 the necessary resources. It must have the manpower, the
15 equipment, armaments and material. You have to feed
16 those people, you have to clothe them, you have to equip
17 them to be able to fight the aggressor.
18 Q. Was there a similar such concept of tactical group known
19 of in the former structure of the JNA?
20 A. At the time I was serving in the former army, I did not
21 participate in any war, but in our tactical tasks and
22 exercises we reviewed and used such terms, the names of
23 such military formations, in designing our tactical
24 tasks and engaging in war games.
25 Q. Are you aware of the category and type of authority,
1 duties and responsibilities that a Commander of a
2 tactical group would have?
3 A. In my area of responsibility, I had tactical groups that
4 I formed, and to which I assigned specific tasks. I was
5 familiar with the Konjic tactical group, in as much as
6 I knew that it existed and I co-ordinated with it to the
7 extent to which I co-ordinated with the people who held
8 important positions, such as Zejnil Delalic and other
9 leaders and commanders of units.
10 Q. And do you know who appointed Zejnil Delalic as the
11 Commander of the Tactical Group 1?
12 A. Probably the chief of staff of the Supreme Command,
13 because it was subordinated to the Supreme Command.
14 Q. And might the witness be shown, please, Exhibit 71?
15 Again, I have a copy of this exhibit here. It is also
16 referred to as document 118.
17 General, would you please read through that
18 document, please? Not aloud, just to yourself.
19 A. I have looked at it.
20 Q. Thank you. General, do you see the stamp that appears
21 at the foot of that document?
22 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honour, can I again ask that Mr. Niemann
23 wait until the Defence have received their copies of
25 MR. NIEMANN: I am sorry.
1 MR. ACKERMAN: I am sorry to interrupt you, Mr. Niemann.
2 MR. NIEMANN: I am sorry.
3 General, do you see on the foot of Exhibit 71 a
4 stamp that appears there?
5 A. I do.
6 Q. Is that familiar to you, that stamp?
7 A. It is the stamp of the Republic of Bosnia and
8 Herzegovina Ministry of Defence, headquarters of
9 Territorial Defence, Sarajevo.
10 Q. Do you see beside that a signature that appears, under a
11 name that is given?
12 A. I do, though it is not very clear. The copy is not a
13 good one.
14 Q. If you cannot read it then let me know, but if you can
15 read it are you able to say the designation of the
16 person that signed it? In other words, are you able to
17 give the title, the position of the person that signed
18 it, from your copy?
19 A. It says for the main staff of the armed forces, signed
20 by Mr. Halilovic. That is what is stated in the
22 Q. You notice that at the top it is dated, the 11th July,
24 A. Yes, that is what it says.
25 Q. Does this appear to be a document consistent with the
1 type that was employed at the time in relation to the
2 appointment of staff in the army of Bosnia-Herzegovina?
3 A. The document by its form and content is similar to the
4 documents that we used, and as for the validity of the
5 document, I am not competent to say.
6 Q. Thank you. Might that exhibit be returned to the
7 Registrar as well?
8 Now, General, you mentioned earlier in your
9 evidence that you received an instruction from the chief
10 of the -- the chief of staff, Sefer Halilovic, in
11 relation to the formation of the 4th Corp. Do you
12 recall saying that?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Did the formation of this Corps have any impact, so far
15 as you are aware, on the operations that were being
16 conducted by Mr. Delalic?
17 A. I received a written document for the formation of the
18 Corps, dated 17th November, 1992, from the chief of staff
19 of the army, Sefer Halilovic. This document indicates
20 who will be the Commander and who will be chief of
21 staff, and it orders the formation; and I was told that
22 within that Corps, which would be called the 4th Corps,
23 that it would comprise the units of Territorial Defence,
24 that is of the army of Bosnia-Herzegovina in the
25 territory of the municipality, then the municipality of
1 Mostar, Konjic, Jablanica and units formed in the
2 territory of the municipality of Mostar, from Gacko,
3 Capljina and Stolac. I was given a list of the units
4 that would become part of that Corp. Precisely what
5 type of operations Zejnil Delalic performed with units
6 in Konjic I cannot say exactly, but I think that the
7 formation of the Corps did not upset the defensive
8 operations, against the aggressor in that area.
9 Q. Was there a relationship in terms of military structure
10 then created between you and Zejnil Delalic as a
11 consequence of your order from Sefer Halilovic to
12 establish the 4th Corps?
13 A. When I received the order to form the 4th Corps, as I
14 have already said, this entails a process, and in the
15 subsequent period and days that followed I toured the
16 units. I visited also the units in the territory of the
17 Konjic municipality. In that period from November 17th,
18 for the next seven days, Zejnil Delalic had left the
19 territory of Konjic municipality in, for us, an unknown
20 direction at that time. I did not meet with Mr. Delalic
21 after that.
22 Q. Prior to the establishment of the 4th Corps, was Zejnil
23 Delalic your subordinate?
24 A. No.
25 MR. NIEMANN: After the establishment of the 4th Corps did
1 Zejnil Delalic become subordinate to you.
2 JUDGE JAN: He answered that question, he said he had left.
3 MR. NIEMANN: I do not think he left immediately, your
4 Honour. I think there was a few days.
5 After you established the 4th Corps, and perhaps
6 only for a very short time, was Zejnil Delalic
7 subordinate to you?
8 A. I was told in the order that my Corps would include units
9 which were then, until then, part of the Tactical Group
10 1 in Konjic, which means that those units became a part
11 of the 4th Corp. As I did not meet with Zejnil again in
12 person, he was a member of the army of
13 Bosnia-Herzegovina, as he was command of the tactical
14 group he was directly subordinate to the command, the
15 Supreme Command and the chief of staff of the Supreme
16 Command, Sefer Halilovic, until any future appointment.
17 The units in Konjic, Parasovic Jablanica and Pazor were
18 subordinate to me, these units and their commanders and
20 Q. Is it correct to say that Zejnil Delalic, at no stage,
21 was ever subordinate to you?
22 A. I never had superiority over Mr. Delalic. He was linked
23 to higher levels of authority. He did not belong to my
24 formation and control and command, chain of control and
1 Q. Now, prior to the establishment of the 4th Corps and in
2 the early parts of 1992, April, May, June, July, during
3 that period, did soldiers in the then emerging army of
4 Bosnia-Herzegovina hold rank?
5 A. No, we did not have ranks at the time. We only had
6 functions, posts, from the soldier, to the leader,
7 Commander, and some other positions. Only later in 1994
8 did we introduce ranks.
9 Q. You may not know the answer to this: but did -- were
10 there some people operating in the theatre of war
11 centred around Konjic and Mostar who had de facto
12 authority at that time?
13 A. In the period May, June, until the formation of the
14 Corps, in the territory of Konjic municipality there were
15 people with certain authorisation, such as the Commander
16 of the tactical groups, Commanders of Brigades,
17 Commanders of Battalions. It did not counter members of
18 the staff of the Supreme Command. I met with Mr. Divjak,
19 who was at the time a member of the staff of the Supreme
20 Command, Vehbija Karic and other officers who were
21 carrying out their tasks. I do not know exactly what
22 those tasks were. Meeting with them I discussed only
23 those obligations and tasks that related to me as the
24 Commander of the Battalion and the Brigade at the time.
25 Q. Now, still speaking about this period of time, were
1 there formal chains of commands that existed and were
2 they followed, so far as you know?
3 A. The system of control and command in the Territorial
4 Defence and later in the army of Bosnia-Herzegovina
5 existed. There was the staff of the Supreme Command and
6 subordinated units. I, as Commander of the Battalion
7 and later of the Brigade, was directly subordinated to
8 the chief of staff of the Supreme Command Sefer
9 Halilovic. Then all the commanders and leaders of
10 subordinated units were responsible to me, and then they
11 had their own chain of control and command. That is how
12 it was in that period.
13 Q. Again, in that period, did structures exist for taking
14 disciplinary actions against members of the
15 Bosnia-Herzegovina army who had violated military rules
16 or codes of conduct?
17 A. As the Battalion and Brigade Commander I was responsible
18 for any disciplinary errors and offences; whatever
19 happened in my unit, as the Commander it was my duty to
20 deal with it. As for higher levels, we did not have any
21 military Tribunals at the time, nor any superior bodies
22 that were responsible for discipline. But this was
23 ensured through the chain of control and command.
24 Q. If disciplinary action was to be taken against members
25 of the Bosnia-Herzegovina army, at that time and even
1 after the establishment of the 4th Corps, were there any
2 Tribunals available to hear these matters?
3 A. The state of Bosnia-Herzegovina adopted certain
4 legislation from the former Bosnia Herzegovina when it
5 was a Republic of the former Yugoslavia. Within the
6 Territorial Defence and the BiH army, in the beginning,
7 we did not have a complete system, nor any judicial
8 mechanisms, but we relied on district military
9 Prosecutor's offices and military courts, which existed
10 in the territory of a district. In concrete terms,
11 Mostar had a military Prosecutor, and a court. And both
12 the units of the BiH army and the HVO relied on them.
13 But they dealt only with serious criminal offences,
14 whereas disciplinary action was dealt with within the
15 commands of units.
16 MR. NIEMANN: Thank you. Now, I would like to ask you, if
17 you would, to look at a video, Exhibit 114. I assume
18 that that has been taken to the booth? It has not
20 Your Honours, I will attend to that after lunch
21 and come back to that, rather than delay proceedings
23 General, how were soldiers and officers,
24 particularly senior officers, held accountable by the
25 Supreme Command? Was that in the same way as you have
1 just described, or was there a different structure to
2 deal with senior officers, at the time?
3 A. I do not understand the question. Did senior officers
4 -- were officers accountable in a different way than
5 the others? We did not have ranks. We introduced ranks
6 at the end of '93, beginning of '94. But members of the
7 HVO and of the army of Bosnia-Herzegovina were
8 accountable according to their functions, soldier
9 according to his, a leader according to his and a
10 Commander according to his. Only later did we issue
11 rules of conduct for the armed forces of
12 Bosnia-Herzegovina which specified responsibilities
13 according to functions, and all officers, once they were
14 given ranks, were accountable according to those rules
15 of conduct.
16 Q. General, during the period of 1992, and if it varied you
17 may say so, but if it was the same, could you tell us
18 who had control over the military police?
19 A. I did not quite understand the question? Was it at the
20 beginning of 1992.
21 Q. Perhaps I will break up the question. In the beginning
22 of 1992, in April, May, June, July, during that period,
23 who exercised control over the military police? Are you
24 able to say?
25 A. As Battalion Commander from 13th May to 15th July did
1 not have any military police within any formation. It
2 had a protective platoon which guarded the command and
3 carried out those duties, with the formation of the
4 Brigade in July 1992, I was authorised to form a police
5 platoon, and I had such a platoon. With the formation
6 of the Corps, I formed a Military Police Battalion, and
7 I was in command of that Military Police Battalion as
8 the Corps Commander, and in the Brigade, the military
9 police platoon was accountable to me as the Brigade
11 Q. Are you aware of what the position was with respect to
12 military police in the tactical groups?
13 A. I must repeat what I said. The tactical groups are
14 provisional formations, which include certain brigades,
15 battalions and other units. If that Brigade has its own
16 military police within its formation then that military
17 police was subordinated to the Brigade Commander, and
18 the Unit Commanders within the tactical group are
19 subordinated to their Commander. I do not know whether
20 the tactical group had a special police unit which was
21 directly accountable to the Commander of the tactical
23 Q. Now, during the period 1992, firstly in the period when
24 the Brigade was established, did you ever have occasion
25 to carry out disciplinary action against any soldiers
1 under your command?
2 A. As Battalion and Brigade Commander, I did have certain
3 disciplinary errors or offences, and I enforced certain
4 sanctions. But as a typical example, it was only after
5 the formation of the Corps, in view of the number of
6 units, did this problem arise, and did we realise that
7 we had to deal with it through higher judicial
8 institutions and in accordance with the law.
9 Q. So far as you are aware, with respect to Commanders of
10 the tactical groups, did they have a similar
11 responsibility, albeit that they were only established
12 for a short period of time, to deal with matters of
13 discipline in a similar way that you had, as Brigade
15 A. Any Unit Commander, be it a Battalion, a Brigade or a
16 tactical group, must have their duties clearly
17 specified, and their competencies. I do not know
18 whether the Commander of the tactical group had a clear
19 indications as to his responsibilities with respect to
20 disciplinary measures.
21 Q. Are you aware of any other persons who would have had
22 this responsibility, other than the Commander of the
23 tactical group?
24 A. Every Commander is -- has responsibility towards his
25 subordinated units. As the Brigade Commander, I was
1 competent and had responsibility with respect to my
2 subordinate units. For my officers, my Commanders, and
3 my leaders of groups, and for my soldiers. I could not
4 give you an example, now. I had disciplinary action;
5 when a soldier does something that is not in accord with
6 military conduct, then I would ask his Commander to
7 punish him, to dismiss him from that post, to appoint
8 him to another post, to call him to task, to caution
9 him, to criticise him, and the like.
10 In the interest of better understanding, I must
11 say that at first, and I am referring specifically to
12 1992, we did not have time to engage in minor breaches
13 by soldiers. Operations were quick, the offensives were
14 fierce, so that it was possible for certain individuals
15 to commit errors without them being sanctioned. There
16 was a realistic possibility of this occurring.
17 MR. NIEMANN: Is that a convenient time?
18 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Now, Mr. Niemann we will have to stop
19 here for lunch and come back at 2.30. You will continue
20 at that time.
21 (1.00 pm)
22 (Luncheon adjournment)
2 (2.30 pm)
3 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: You may sit down.
4 Please remind the witness that he is still on his
6 THE REGISTRAR: Sir, I remind you that you are still under
8 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Mr. Niemann, you might continue.
9 MR. NIEMANN: Thank you.
10 General, I would like you now, if you would,
11 please, to look at a video that will be played on the
12 television screen in front of you. I asked that the
13 technicians in the booth play two parts of Exhibit 114,
14 the first part being from the beginning of the video
15 tape through to minutes 2.41. It is a very short
16 segment. Also from the part 11.49 seconds through to 16
17 minutes and 29 seconds. I think those parts have been
18 -- I also ask when the person speaks on the video it be
19 translated into the English language by the
20 interpreters. I ask you watch closely the video when it
21 is shown to you. At the conclusion of the playing of
22 the video I will proceed to ask you some questions about
23 that, please.
24 Can we start playing Exhibit 114 at 0.0 through to
25 2.41? Thank you.
1 THE INTERPRETER: (Interpreting interview on video).
2 "I find it hardest talking about myself.
3 I should like to take advantage of this opportunity to
4 greet the citizens of Jablanica, all of those I know and
5 those I do not know and my friends in particular who
6 have been my hosts many times during the war. I would
7 like to greet Mr. Mujo Kolundzija and my very good friend
8 in Prozor, Emir, who is now a refugee, and their
9 families. And all the people that I know. I am glad to
10 be in Jablanica. I have to say that I am a little
11 surprised that we have not met before, but better now
12 than never.
13 "What should I say about myself? My biography is
14 short. I was born on 31st August, 1943. My father was
15 Rasim, my mother, Dulba. In a village called Janjici,
16 near Zenica, where I completed my elementary education.
17 In 1959 I applied to the then training school for
18 non-commissioned officers, now called the Military
19 Secondary School. I graduated in 1962. I was then
20 stationed in Nis. After Nis, in Vranje, and then to
21 Skoplje. I was in Skoplje immediately after the
22 earthquake there. In 1964 I enrolled at the Military
23 Academy, which I graduated in 1968. I was stationed in
24 Zagreb, Croatia, then Serbia then Bosnia-Herzegovina,
25 many different places.
1 "I graduated from the High Military Academy in
2 1979, which I attended from 1977. I was a JNA officer
3 until the end of March this year. I have had various
4 duties from the Commander of a radar, observation and
5 guiding system to chief of staff of the aircraft base
6 and deputy Commander. My last post was head of the
7 general military subjects department in the airforce
8 academy in Rajlovac.
9 "I am married. I have two children, a 20 year
10 old son, who is with me together -- who is with me in
11 the 1st Mostar Brigade. I have a 16 year old daughter.
12 I am healthy. I weigh 88 kilos and I am 188 centimetres
13 tall. There is nothing else special to mention. After
14 your detailed biography" --
15 MR. NIEMANN: If we could move on to the second part of that
16 tape I indicated, at 11 minutes and 59 seconds, please.
17 THE INTERPRETER: (Interpreting interview on video).
18 "Recently in Konjic some members of the armed
19 forces were arrested. Among them some very important
20 people, like Jovan Divljak and Zejnil Delalic.
21 Just a small correction. It is not Jovan Divljak
22 but Divjak.
23 Divjak, I am sorry.
24 Who else did you mention?
25 Zejnil Delalic.
1 The citizens of Jablanica probably know what
2 happened. I personally was in contact with Konjic even
3 before this incident, several months before. I knew
4 Divjak as an officer of the former army. He used to be
5 Commander of the District Defence Headquarters in
6 Mostar. He used to come here to Jablanica and Konjic. I
7 knew him from Sarajevo as an excellent officer who was
8 an expert in his job.
9 "I met Zejnil Delalic during the war. I used to
10 come and pass through Konjic. I would ask for
11 assistance for what I needed and gave them what I had.
12 We were in contact and exchanged views. I did not know
13 him before the war. We had to do what we did in
14 Konjic. It was not done by the Commander of the
15 4th Corps, it was these fighters who did it, the people
16 who feel those problems the most.
17 "For a long time something that is not good was
18 happening in Konjic. There were people missing, killed,
19 there was uncontrolled exchange of detainees, there were
20 no records on the movement of equipment or weapons ...
21 and when the people realised that, the morale among the
22 soldiers had dropped significantly. People began asking,
23 'who is Zejnil?', 'who is Pasalic?', 'who is Divjak?'.
24 They began to be suspicious about the people who were
25 leading them. When this lack of trust affected the
1 morale of the soldiers on the front-lines the Commanders
2 noticed. Then we sat down and discussed what should be
3 done. Zejnil left Konjic. His Pavo, what was his name,
4 he also left Konjic. We did not want them to leave
5 Konjic. They know the reasons why they left.
6 "We established a commission, started an
7 investigation and found out some horrible things. Dirty
8 laundry. From incorrect use and sale of food for
9 soldiers, uniforms, equipment and weapons. About 15 or
10 so people were killed, and there were no explanations
11 for their disappearance. There were no reasons. When
12 you look at all this and take into account the exchange
13 of prisoners, detainees, these are dishonest, dirty
14 things which directly affect the success of the struggle
15 against the Chetniks.
16 "We started the investigation in Konjic, because
17 we were interested in Zejnil Delalic and Divjak, or
18 because we did not start the investigation because we
19 wanted to denigrate Zejnil. However, I have to mention
20 that Colonel Divjak is not one of those involved. He
21 came much later and has nothing to do with the people
22 who disappeared, the exchange of prisoners and murders.
23 Yet there are some misdemeanours which harm the image of
24 a member of the Supreme Command. We thus isolated
25 Divjak from the Supreme Headquarters of the army staff
1 and placed him under our control. We will hand him over
2 to the army staff and leave it to the competent staff to
3 decide. We will, of course, admit what we have
4 discovered. The entire case has been concluded and
5 forwarded to the investigating judge, who is going to
6 continue with the proceedings and inform the public on
7 the matter. The trial proceedings will start and
8 appropriate sentences will be pronounced against the
9 people who did things which are not deign of the army of
10 Bosnia-Herzegovina, the Muslims, the Croats and actually
11 the entire population fighting against the Chetniks and
12 the wronged Yugoslavia."
13 MR. NIEMANN: Thank you.
14 General, when did you give this interview?
15 A. I do not remember the date, but I think it was towards
16 the end of 1992, somewhere in the second half of
18 Q. And where did you give the interview?
19 A. In Jablanica, that was the internal television of the
20 town of Jablanica.
21 Q. When you gave the interview had the work of the
22 committee that you mentioned there already commenced?
23 A. Yes. The committee had already been operational.
24 Q. The information that you provided in the interview that
25 we have just observed, where did you gather that
1 information from in order to provide it in the
3 A. That information -- I was given that information from
4 the subordinates who worked in Jablanica and Konjic, and
5 from Commanders of various units who would report to me.
6 Q. From what you said in the interview, about this
7 investigation, were matters in a state of confusion in
8 Konjic, prior to the investigation being carried out?
9 A. I have to say that the situation in the Neretva River
10 valley, and the same went for Konjic and Jablanica, the
11 situation was very difficult, because our system of
12 defence and the functioning of the civilian authorities
13 were not completely established. It was very good
14 ground for rumours. For example, it was Konjic and
15 Bradina in the village of Repovci, nine young men were
16 killed from the 7th Battalion and everybody was asking
17 why those people died, who killed them. We could not
18 establish whether that was done by enemy units or by
19 somebody else. There were various stories and reports
20 that there was not enough food, not enough equipment,
21 that the equipment was going to the other side and this
22 was very bad for the morale of the troops.
23 Q. How did you find out about the matters which prompted
24 you to establish the commission of inquiry and
25 investigation, committee of investigation?
1 A. I did not remember the exact date when it happened.
2 I received a report stating that the situation in Konjic
3 was not good. I asked, "why is it not good?", and
4 I asked the Commanders of the subordinate units and
5 I was told that Mr. Zejnil Delalic had left Konjic, that
6 he was not in Konjic any more. Since his role and the
7 authority he had at the time we asked, "why was that?".
8 So I went to Rasovici in the Neretva River valley, went
9 to Ostroviz and Konjic, and I noted and concluded that
10 within the town of Konjic there are military operations
11 moving around, and their place was not there and the
12 situation could -- was such that they had things among
13 them they were trying to solve, and I said to Sefer
14 Halilovic the situation was not good. He said, "this is
15 your area of responsibility, try to establish what was
16 going on".
17 So I reported to him that Mr. Zejnil Delalic was
18 not on the territory of Konjic and there are some other
19 peoples we could not know where they were, and we were
20 not able to establish what was going on. The head of
21 the staff of the Supreme Command confirmed it, and he
22 said that the Corps Commander, myself as a Corps
23 Commander, I should establish what was going on as
24 Sarajevo was under siege. We had to find out the
25 truth. Then I decided to establish a committee that
1 would investigate the matter. I knew how to do that
2 because we used to do that in the former JNA in case we
3 had an unclear situation. That is how I formed a group
4 of people who were from my Corps and from the security
5 centre in Mostar. I told them to go to Konjic and to
6 investigate there what was going on, to contact the
7 people and to report back to me. That is how that
8 committee has started work.
9 The head of the committee was my assistant for
10 legal affairs, Muradif Hadzovic. He was a lawyer by
11 profession. Other members of the committee were people
12 from the Corps and also from the Brigade and Neretvica
13 and also some people from the security, and that
14 committee started work like that and the committee
15 worked for a month and I received, from the committee,
16 some reports from time to time. But these reports were
17 still not complete, and not completely analysed. But
18 the committee found that there were some matters, so we
19 say, some matters that to our assessment at the time
20 were not good. So we reported our staff of our Supreme
21 Command about that.
22 Q. Did you determine what you were going to do if you
23 discovered that there had been any breaches of
24 discipline or breaches of the law that had been
25 committed? Had you determined what action you were
1 going to take?
2 A. That was five years ago. Time has gone by, and it is
3 difficult for me to remember the details of what
4 I decided at the time. But I probably decided to do
5 what I subsequently did. When the committee has
6 finished with this investigative part, then we asked the
7 staff of the Supreme Command to give us the right to
8 arrest certain people and detain them for a while in
9 order to be able to investigate the matter. One day,
10 I think, we had 12 or 13 people which we had to arrest
11 and keep detained for 30 days or more, and we did it at
12 Parasovici, at the elementary school, so that these
13 people could give their opinion about particulars. So
14 we did it and there were reports that money matters were
15 not settled. There were -- that there were food and
16 supplies that were missing, some material and food was
17 missing, and also we heard that there were cases of
18 people who died and the causes were unknown. This was
19 by the people who were in Celebici, the former warehouse
20 of the JNA. That was in the village of Celebici.
21 When we discovered that, I asked from the staff of
22 the Supreme Command that we start criminal
23 proceedings, because we thought there should be a
24 criminal investigation about that. We also asked that a
25 warrant, a search warrant is -- a warrant for the arrest
1 for some people be issued, for people who left the
2 territory, and so I started criminal proceedings in
3 Zejnil Delalic and some other people so that the
4 criminal proceedings that were started -- we did not
5 prejudge somebody's guilt, but we wanted to know who did
6 what, and wanted to make things clear.
7 Later on, these criminal charges were given to --
8 over to the court, and the court was competent for the
9 rest of this matter. People who were in the warehouse
10 in some kind of detention or prison, or how it is called
11 now, in the case of the Celebici, "camp" -- I do not
12 know the details, but I know that people were found
13 there. I was not in Celebici, I never even wanted to go
14 there, but I ask the command as a soldier and officer it
15 was not within my competence. I think I also signed an
16 order that people should be handed over to the civilian
17 authorities for further investigation and proceedings.
18 This is all I can say about that.
19 Q. Thank you. Now, when the investigation had been
20 conducted there, in the Konjic area, in particular what
21 was the investigation focused on? Was it focused on the
22 civilian side of things or on the military side of
23 things, or on both?
24 A. We were focusing on the military aspect, and, in the
25 meantime, certain parts of it covered also civilian
1 aspects. You see, at that time the situation was such
2 that there was no clear-cut division between military
3 and civilian structures. We were trying to investigate
4 the military aspect. Sometimes, maybe, we also covered
5 some civilian structures, but that was only in order to
6 establish facts of truth that would allow us to take
7 adequate measures.
8 I wanted, as a Corps Commander as well, that the
9 unit -- that where a part of the 4th Corps, especially
10 those units that were formerly already in the Corps, that
11 everything would be cleared as to all the events that
12 might have happened before, in case there were any such
14 Q. The former JNA base at Celebici, was that considered a
15 military establishment or was it a civilian
17 A. I know the Celebici warehouse, because I passed many
18 times by. It was a JNA warehouse, where the specific
19 task there were -- with a specific objective. There
20 were some supplies there and materials there in the
21 warehouse. But I do not think that later that was a
22 military establishment. But we were trying to clear
23 that matter later on, because some people linked it to
24 the military, because I never saw there was a military
25 prison there, and I had no data, I had no information --
1 who were these prisoners -- but we had to find that out.
2 Q. When you conducted this investigation, do you know
3 whether or not any evidence had been discovered of
4 whether or not the persons in positions of authority in
5 Konjic had carried out disciplinary action against
6 subordinates for breaches of discipline? Did you
7 discover any evidence of that?
8 A. I do not recall that the President of the commission who
9 was in charge of the investigation reported to me that
10 anybody had to do any disciplinary measures that were
11 taken against them.
12 Q. And in particular did you discover whether or not any
13 disciplinary action had been taken by the Commander of
14 the Tactical Group 1?
15 A. I do not recall that I was told of any disciplinary
16 action having been taken.
17 Q. Going back, if I may, to the point in time prior to the
18 establishment of the -- prior to the establishment of
19 the 4th Corps, you spoke, in your evidence of the various
20 responsibilities and so forth of a Tactical Group
21 Commander. Would such responsibilities, in your
22 experience, extend to such things as providing
23 logistical support in relation to food and such other
25 A. I said that the Commander of a Tactical Group, that his
1 responsibilities depend on the assignments given to him
2 by the person who appointed him. If the Commander of
3 the supreme staff appointed him, then he probably
4 indicated what his responsibilities would be. But in my
5 view, he had to take care of the material needs of the
6 members of his Tactical Group. He should have, at
7 least. If this was not clearly specified, or if it was
8 indicated that somebody else would take care of that,
9 then that person had to co-ordinate activities with the
10 Commander of the Tactical Group.
11 Q. Now, during the period of time when you were located in
12 Mostar, did you become aware of an operation with the
13 title "Operation Jud", meaning "south"?
14 A. I remember that a structure was formed to carry out the
15 Operation Jud. I think it related to the liberation of
16 Sarajevo. That was in the summer of 1992. But I did
17 not take part in that structure, nor in that operation.
18 But I have heard about it.
19 Q. I will ask you to look at the document that you are now
20 shown. This one has not been introduced as yet, so
21 there is no exhibit number. I would ask that it be
22 given an exhibit number. Might a copy also be given to
23 the Defence, and to their Honours?
24 THE REGISTRAR: The document is marked 187, Prosecution
25 Exhibit 187.
1 MR. NIEMANN: General, would you look at the document I have
2 now had handed to you? Could you read through it
3 please, to yourself, so that you can familiarise
4 yourself with it?
5 A. (Not translated).
6 Q. Having regard to your understanding of the
7 responsibilities and duties as a Commander of a Tactical
8 Group as you understood it, are the orders contained in
9 the documents you are now shown, Exhibit 187, consistent
10 with what you would expect of a Commander of a Tactical
12 A. At that time, I must repeat that I was not responsible
13 nor competent for Tactical Group 1. If you are asking
14 me as a military man to interpret this order or this
15 document, I can do that.
16 Q. Yes. Well, perhaps tell us the contrary. Is it
17 inconsistent with what you would expect to be the duties
18 and responsibilities of a Commander, if that is the
20 A. I think that it is consistent with the obligations of
21 the Commander.
22 MR. NIEMANN: Thank you. Can I have that marked for
23 identification, if your Honours please.
24 I understand, your Honour, that the video that was
25 shown, Exhibit 114, has already been admitted and
1 accepted into evidence. I might just check that,
2 otherwise I will seek to tender it, at this stage.
3 Perhaps the Registrar might assist me with that?
4 THE REGISTRAR: It has been admitted into the record.
5 MR. NIEMANN: Okay.
6 Again, General, during the period of time when you
7 were stationed in Mostar, and indeed after the period of
8 time that you became Commander of the 4th Corps, were you
9 aware of an operation, military operation, being
10 conducted in and around the area of Borci?
11 A. I know that TO units after the army of
12 Bosnia-Herzegovina, in the territory of Konjic
13 municipality, did fight against the remnants of the JNA
14 the Serbian and Montenegrin aggressors to defend the
15 territory, or rather the town of Konjic. Those battles
16 were also fought in the town of Borci. I am aware of
17 that, but I do not know any details about these battles.
18 Q. Do you know who is responsible, important in terms of
19 command for the operation that was being conducted in
21 A. For the actual command of those operations, I do not
22 know who was directly responsible. That was not within
23 my competence.
24 Q. And do you know -- well, do you know, in fact, whether
25 the army of Bosnia-Herzegovina was operational at all in
1 that area, in Borci? Perhaps you do not know.
2 A. At that time, we were as the army of BiH and the HVO, we
3 were -- had some kind of co-ordination in joint
4 operations against the common enemy. I am not aware of
5 any other formations except for the army of
6 Bosnia-Herzegovina. There were some HVO units, but of
7 what magnitude, I do not know.
8 Q. Do you know who was responsible for co-ordinating the
9 army units of Bosnia-Herzegovina and the army units of
10 the HVO?
11 A. I do not know. I am not able to say who was responsible
12 for the co-ordination. Perhaps the person who ordered it
13 might know. I know that the people in Konjic were
14 fighting against the aggressor for the purpose of
15 defence; but who exactly co-ordinated those activities,
16 I cannot say.
17 Q. Thank you, General. General, I would ask you to look
18 for me, please, at the next document, which is somewhat
19 longer. It is Exhibit 124. I also have copies for
20 their Honours, and a copy for the Defence.
21 This is a lengthy document, General, but I would
22 ask you, as quickly as possible, to read through it, if
23 you would for me, please. Have you managed to look at
24 that, General?
25 A. Yes, I have looked at it.
1 Q. Firstly, can you see the person that it appears to be
2 addressed to, a Fahrudin Radoncic. Have you known that
3 person? Did you know that person?
4 A. Yes, I knew Mr. Fahrudin Radoncic. He was for a time, at
5 that time, I think, one of the secretaries of the
6 Supreme Command staff of Sefer Halilovic. Today he is
7 the owner, editor and one of the owners, of the daily
8 newspaper, Avaz.
9 Q. And he was located at the time, this was when this was
10 written, December 1992, the date that is shown there, he
11 was located in Sarajevo, was he?
12 A. Yes, he was in Sarajevo. I met him at Sefer
13 Halilovic's. I do not know what function he held.
14 I think he was one of Sefer Halilovic's secretaries.
15 Q. And the supreme -- those initials that appear there, the
16 SVKOSR BH, that stands for the Supreme Command Staff
17 Armed Forces of the Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina, does
19 A. Probably, only it is not written correctly.
20 Q. How would it be if it -- perhaps you might tell us how
21 it would be if it was written correctly. What would be
22 there if it was written correctly?
23 A. Staff of the Supreme Command, "OS", should be separated,
24 and there should be an "I" between "B" and "H",
25 "Bosnia-Herzegovina". I am thinking of the form and
1 the grammar. I am looking at things militarily. First,
2 it should be the "Stab" of the commander, that is the
3 staff of the Supreme Command. "OS" means "armed
4 forces"; then Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina.
5 Q. And the chief of staff of the Supreme Command was Sefer
6 Halilovic at that time, was he?
7 A. Yes, he was chief of staff of the Supreme Command.
8 Q. Now, there is a reference there, in the second
9 paragraph, to a meeting that took place on the evening
10 of the 25th November, 1992, and there is a reference
11 there to "A Pasalic", which I assume to be you, as
12 attending that meeting. Do you recall that event?
13 A. I must say that this document that we are now reviewing,
14 in the heading it says "Tactical Group 1". At the time,
15 there was no Tactical Group, it had already been
16 incorporated into the 4th Corps, by 8th December.
17 Secondly, in the document itself my surname and
18 initial is mentioned, as well as a meeting. I think
19 that I held that meeting in Prozor, when we discussed
20 the problems linked to the aggression of the extremist
21 section of the HVO against the Prozor. People were
22 expelled and that is when we held that meeting -- if
23 that is the reference to that meeting, and probably it
25 Q. Those people expelled were Muslim citizens, were they,
1 at Prozor?
2 A. Yes, mostly Bosniaks, Muslims.
3 Q. Do you recall whether or not Zejnil Delalic was to
4 attend that meeting, at any stage? Was it your
5 expectation that he would have attended that meeting?
6 A. As far as I can recall, he did not attend at that
7 meeting. That meeting he did not attend.
8 Q. Would it have been appropriate, having regard to the
9 responsibilities and duties of Zejnil Delalic, to attend
10 that meeting, had he chosen to do so?
11 A. The situation at the time required, and that is also my
12 opinion, that he should not attend, considering the
13 revolt of people towards others. This need not
14 necessarily always have been correct, or heartfelt, but
15 it existed, because Prozor saw the extremist HVO members
16 barge into their village, burn it down, expel them, and
17 they were highly indignant that no one had assisted
18 them. They were indignant that they had experienced
19 this, and since they were within the Tactical Group,
20 I felt that Zejnil Delalic should not attend, at the
22 Q. There is a reference there, in the same paragraph, in
23 the second sentence, where the author said:
24 "I had agreed with others not to attend the
25 meeting in order to forestall the allergy that the HVO
1 was prone to develop when I was around."
2 Were you aware of any tensions that existed
3 between Zejnil Delalic and the HVO, either at this time
4 or prior to it?
5 A. Already after the aggression of the extremist section of
6 the HVO against Prozor there was tension generally
7 between the BiH army and the HVO in those areas. There
8 was an aversion between me and the HVO and vice versa
9 and also between Zejnil and the HVO, probably.
10 Q. Now, if you go to the second page for me, please,
11 General, and in about the centre of the page,
12 immediately above the numbered paragraph 3, there is
13 again a reference to Arif Pasalic. Do you see that
14 reference there? It may be slightly different on your
15 copy. I might just check that. It may not be the
16 centre of the page. It is immediately above the number
17 3. It is towards the bottom of the second page on your
19 A. Yes, I see it.
20 Q. Do you see the reference there to yourself. That
22 "Only a couple of days earlier Arif Pasalic
23 suggested I should leave the area for a while and
24 recommended a way to do it."
25 Do you remember saying that at all?
1 A. Yes. Yes, I did say that.
2 Q. What did you say to Zejnil Delalic in relation to that?
3 A. What we are talking about now was occurring at a time
4 when the situation in Konjic and Jablanica, and
5 generally in the Neretva valley, between the HVO and the
6 BiH army forces, and when the territory of Konjic,
7 Jablanica and Prozor -- the situation was rather vague
8 and unclear. At that time, as the Commander of the
9 Corps, and before that as Brigade Commander, I was
10 exposed to a series of dangers, and it was probably
11 thanks to chance that I avoided being assassinated.
12 I know that Zejnil Delalic had similar assassination
13 threats. In the town itself there were several
14 explosions which looked as if his life might be
15 threatened and I advised him to withdraw for a while,
16 that it was dangerous for him and his own life, and
17 I felt it necessary to tell him that as a person, and as
18 a member of the army.
19 Q. Did you suggest to him where he should go and how he
20 should get there?
21 A. No, I did not suggest that. All that I said was what I
22 have just told you, and I know that we discussed how we
23 should move around in the territory controlled by the
24 HVO and I told him at the time: use the method that I am
25 using. You have to have documents under another name,
1 and the most logical choice would be a Croatian surname
2 and their documents to be able to move around freely.
3 That is something that I did too, because there was no
4 other way. I helped him to have a document like that.
5 I think it was an ID card, I do not remember exactly.
6 I gave him that document in an envelope. I did not know
7 what was the name used on that ID, but it carried his
9 We had those documents made to be able to move
10 around in the territory of Bosnia-Herzegovina, and
11 especially in the area of the territory under the
12 control of the HVO, because at the time and in that
13 territory there were checkpoints at every so many
14 kilometres, held by various units. There were quite a
15 number of paramilitary formations, and if you did not
16 have valid documents you could experience some very
17 serious unpleasantness or even your life could -- life
18 could be endangered. It was in that sense that
19 I advised him.
20 Q. General, the paragraph numbered 3, which is immediately
21 underneath the part that you have just been talking
22 about, you just considered, there is a reference there
23 to rumours in Croatian newspapers about Zejnil Delalic
24 having flown in a helicopter. Did you ever hear any of
25 that, any rumours of that, sort or any information of
1 that sort, after he had departed on 25th November of
3 A. When I was informed that Zejnil Delalic had left the
4 territory of Konjic municipality, I personally did not
5 know where he had gone, nor how. The people who
6 informed me of this did not know either. I do not know
7 what appeared in the Croatian newspapers at the time,
8 but in some of our own newspapers and local radio
9 stations there were various versions. At the time, it
10 was very difficult to have any control over them, and
11 nobody answered for any false reporting. And there were
12 such versions; even on the radio I heard somebody
13 reporting that I had reliable data to show that he had
14 left by helicopter. This is something that I never
15 stated. I do remember that there were such articles and
16 reports that he had left by helicopter, in this way and
18 Q. Now, General, just going to the signature part of the
19 document that you have in front of you, at the end of
20 the document, there appears the name "Fire", "F-I-R-E".
21 Do you know what that is intended to represent?
22 A. I do not know what it means, used in this context;
23 whether it is pseudonym or something, I do not know.
24 I am not familiar with it.
25 Q. Just to assist me again, I might ask the Registrar,
1 I think that one has been admitted into evidence as
2 well, that document?
3 THE REGISTRAR: According to my list, it was admitted into
4 evidence by oral decision of the Trial Chamber on 12th
5 September this year.
6 MR. O'SULLIVAN: I believe the Registrar has made a mistake
7 there, your Honours. This is one of the documents among
8 many which has not been admitted into evidence. That is
9 my understanding of your decision on September 12th of
10 this year.
11 THE REGISTRAR: This document was admitted into the list in
12 the month of June 1997.
13 MR. NIEMANN: Your Honours, please.
14 MR. O'SULLIVAN: Your Honour, your ruling of September 12th
15 did not admit any documents. You admitted twelve
16 folders, not the contents of those folders. We object
17 to the admission of this particular document since it
18 has not been proven. The authenticity of this document
19 has not been shown by the Prosecution. In our
20 submission, it is inadmissible for that reason.
21 MR. NIEMANN: My understanding of the matter is that it has
22 been admitted into evidence so it would seem that it is
23 now really a question of the Prosecution establishing
24 its relevance; and if the Prosecution is unable to
25 establish that then the consequences of failing to do so
1 will follow. My understanding is that it has been
2 admitted, your Honours, as with all of those documents.
3 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: If it was one of the documents in the
4 folders, we were specific that none of the documents was
5 concerned in the question of the admission of the
6 folders themselves, because there was no nexus between
7 the documents in the folders and what was admitted as
8 the folder.
9 MR. NIEMANN: No, your Honour.
10 MR. O'SULLIVAN: So, your Honour, it was not that that was
12 MR. NIEMANN: This document falls into the category of
13 document that was individually discussed and dealt with
14 by the witness Moerbauer, not inside the folders. There
15 was a group of folders that were seized. They were not
16 tendered, at the end of the day, because the contents of
17 the documents were not sought to be tendered, merely the
18 folders were produced to show these were the folders
19 from which the documents were extracted. It is not
20 those documents. These documents are the documents
21 specifically dealt with on an individual basis, one by
22 one by the witness Moerbauer. My understanding is they
23 have in fact been accepted into evidence.
24 JUDGE JAN: Moerbauer said that he examined this document
25 from -- which you recovered from premises, allegedly
1 occupied by Zejnil Delalic. He did not say this
2 document belonged to, or bears the signatures of, Zejnil
4 MR. NIEMANN: I realise it has not reached that level of
5 proof. My understanding is it is admitted into evidence
6 from the record.
7 JUDGE JAN: Further documents found, that is all it is. Not
8 that its contents are admitted as part of the evidence.
9 MR. NIEMANN: I am only going by the record. There may be
10 some confusion about that, your Honours.
11 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: It is possible to admit what he found
12 in the premises, but in order to use it for evidence, at
13 least it has to be authenticated first.
14 MR. NIEMANN: I understand -- I initially had misunderstood
15 the situation myself. I understand from our looking at
16 the record that the position seems to be, as
17 I understood it, that it has been admitted into
18 evidence, but it has not -- but the relevance of it or
19 what it seeks to prove has not yet been established.
20 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: I think that is when you establish the
21 authenticity of the document itself; then you can use it
22 for the contents.
23 MR. NIEMANN: Yes, as proof of the contents of it. The
24 technical step of admitting it ... I understand it has
25 been admitted.
1 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: It is not possible to use it for its
2 content until you establish that.
3 MR. O'SULLIVAN: Your Honour, if I could be of assistance; on
4 Friday, September 12th, at page 7407 of the transcript,
5 in your decision from the bench, you said:
6 "The Prosecution is seeking to tender twelve
7 folders containing documents but not the documents
8 contained therein."
9 The document we are referring to, according to the
10 testimony of Officer Moerbauer was found in folder I5,
11 which he claims was handed to him by Officer Navrat.
12 Also, during Officer Moerbauer's testimony, he was
13 unable to identify any document from Inda-Bau which he
14 claims he analysed at police headquarters. By the
15 Prosecution's own witness, Officer Moerbauer, who
16 claimed to have marked these documents, none of the
17 documents alleged seized from Inda-Bau was identified in
18 this courtroom by Officer Moerbauer. The Prosecution
19 has failed to prove authenticity of these documents.
20 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: I think we appear to be speaking at
21 cross-purposes. This is not what he is saying. The
22 contention of Mr. Niemann is that these documents are
23 different from those in the folders, and as I said even
24 if Mr. Moerbauer had at that time removed this one and
25 stated that these were documents recovered, it might be
1 admitted as documents they have recovered, but he can
2 not use them for the contents of the documents. This is
3 what we are saying. That is quite different from what
4 you are arguing.
5 MR. O'SULLIVAN: On the evidence, your Honour, the
6 Prosecution witness Moerbauer says this document was in
7 folder I5. That can be found on page 3653 of the
8 record. I do not know how my friend can be contending
9 this document comes from any other place other than I5.
10 MR. NIEMANN: I think the confusion was there were twelve
11 folders that were presented to the court. Those
12 documents were not admitted, and those folders were not
13 admitted into evidence, and the Prosecution does not
14 seek to tender them in as evidence. The only purpose
15 they were produced for -- this was the chain of evidence
16 issue. The documents that the present document, 124,
17 relates to is the documents that were taken out of those
18 folders before it ever came near this court and were
19 dealt with individually by Moerbauer and others. It is
20 my understanding that it is those documents that have
21 been accepted into evidence.
22 Now, I understand the issue, that they cannot be
23 relied upon as proof of their contents until they are
24 proved. But I understand they have been admitted, so
25 the formal process of admitting the document has taken
1 place. That is the only thing that concerned me at the
3 MR. O'SULLIVAN: I think this is where my learned friend and
4 I part company, because this document from the testimony
5 of Moerbauer allegedly comes from folder I5. It does
6 not come from anywhere else. Moerbauer says he was
7 handed that folder among the twelve he allegedly
8 received from Navrat.
9 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: All that you are saying is that no such
10 evidence occurred, that Moerbauer had moved documents
11 outside those twelve folders. No such evidence was
12 before the Trial Chamber that there were documents
13 outside those folders which he says he recovered. Is it
14 your argument that all the documents which you can rely
15 upon here, are documents which were in the folders?
16 That is not what is being said here.
17 MR. O'SULLIVAN: This particular document was in folder I5,
18 according to the testimony of Moerbauer. When he came
19 before this court he could not identify a mark which he
20 said he placed upon every document within I5. This
21 document has not been authenticated.
22 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Everybody has agreed that it cannot be
23 used for the contents. So I cannot see your argument
25 MR. NIEMANN: I will ask the witness be shown this document.
1 I have a copy, and an English version. It is a document
2 that has not as yet been tendered. I ask that it be
3 given an exhibit number.
4 THE REGISTRAR: This is the document of the Prosecution 188,
6 MR. NIEMANN: I ask that this document be marked for
8 JUDGE JAN: Are you sure this document relates to this
10 MR. NIEMANN: I noticed that, your Honour, yes. Paragraph 3,
11 your Honour.
12 JUDGE JAN: I am looking at the last page, it is signed by
14 MR. NIEMANN: Yes, your Honour, there is some degree of
16 General, I would ask you to look through that
17 particular document you are being shown there. In
18 particular, I am asking you to concentrate on the
19 paragraph numbered 3, which appears on the second page
20 of my version of the document, and appears towards the
21 bottom of the second page of your document.
22 General, starting off with going to the signatory
23 side of that part of that document, at the very bottom,
24 on the last page, did you know that particular Commander
25 at the time when you were located in the Mostar area?
1 A. Yes, I knew him.
2 Q. And insofar as the responsibilities of Zejnil Delalic
3 were concerned, was there an overlap, or I should say a
4 mutual area of responsibility, consistent with the area
5 of responsibility of Colonel Blaskic, so far as you
7 A. As far as I know, Colonel Blaskic was the Commander of
8 the operational zone of central Bosnia, the headquarters
9 of which were in Vitez, and under his responsibilities
10 were the Croatian Defence Council unit, but there were
11 also BiH army units there towards Gornji Vakuf and
12 Prozor. I am not sure whether Prozor was in his area,
13 but there were units which overlapped in the zones of
14 responsibilities, the areas of responsibility.
15 Q. You see in relation to paragraph 3 in particular, a
16 reference there on 7th, 8th August, which I assume is
17 1992, there is a reference to hostility by TO members in
19 A. Yes, that is what is said in paragraph 3.
20 Q. Do you recall any incidents occurring in this area at
21 the time?
22 A. I was one of the eyewitnesses of the conflict between
23 the BiH army and the HVO, which happened first on 24th
24 October, 1992, when the extreme section of the HVO
25 attacked Prozor. I was in Prozor at that time. I was
1 also in Novi Travnik when the conflict started between
2 the BiH army and the HVO. I heard of the conflict in
3 Kiseljak but I was not there. Here it speaks of
4 aggression. On 9th May I was informed I performed
5 aggression on the HVO and asked of Bosniaks to have
6 white flags and to surrender. It is wrongly used word
7 here or maybe done on purpose like that.
8 Q. I am not asking whether or not you agree with the
9 terminology employed, indeed I would be surprised if you
10 did. I am just asking whether you were aware of any
11 conflict that was arising in those places. I want to
12 specifically move on to the reference there to the
13 conflict brewing in Jablanica; were you aware of a
14 conflict developing in that area?
15 A. I was.
16 MR. OLUJIC: Objection, your Honour, to the relevance of the
18 MR. NIEMANN: Your Honour, it goes specifically to -- it
19 needs to be read, I think, to see the reference of it.
20 It makes specific reference to Zejnil Delalic.
21 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: I think you can answer it.
22 MR. NIEMANN: Were you aware of conflict brewing in that
23 particular area at that time?
24 A. Yes, I was aware of that.
25 MR. NIEMANN: And there is also a reference there to a demand
1 by Zejnil Delalic when he speaks and says here, I will
2 quote it:
3 "... speaks of HVO members of gangs of hooligans
4 and talks of a need to disband the HVO."
5 Were you aware of allegations of this time being
6 made at that time?
7 JUDGE JAN: By Zejnil Delalic?
8 MR. NIEMANN: By Zejnil Delalic?
9 A. I read this for the first time here. I never heard of
10 such allegations.
11 Q. Did you hear allegations coming in the other direction,
12 from the Muslim side or the army of the BiH side, saying
13 that incidents were happening with members of the HVO,
14 at that particular period in time?
15 A. In that period of time, that happened somewhere around
16 11th August, 1992, there were stories about the
17 conflicts between the army and the Croatian Defence
18 Council. The comments were different. Everybody had
19 their own opinion. Those people who wanted common
20 fighting against the Chetniks were against such
21 conflicts. We were trying to prevent those conflicts,
22 under orders of our superior commands, but these
23 conflicts continued to happen, and they are the result
24 of various objectives of fighting, and struggle. And
25 they did happen, that is a fact.
1 Q. General, would you -- perhaps that document might be
2 handed back. It is to be marked for identification.
3 I am not seeking to tender it at this stage.
4 Would you look, please, at the document that you
5 are now shown? Might a copy be given to their Honours,
6 and a copy to the Defence?
7 MR. O'SULLIVAN: Your Honour, can we be reminded of the
8 number of the last document?
9 MR. NIEMANN: 188, your Honour. Might this document be given
10 a number too, please, the one you are now being shown?
11 THE REGISTRAR: This exhibit is marked as Prosecution
12 Exhibit 188.
13 MR. NIEMANN: I think this should be 189.
14 THE REGISTRAR: This was a previous document. Yes. This is
16 MR. NIEMANN: General, in your evidence just immediately
17 prior to showing you this document, you have spoken of
18 the increasing tensions between the HVO and the army of
19 Bosnia-Herzegovina in a number of areas, including the
20 area of Prozor. Do you remember that?
21 A. Yes, I do.
22 Q. You also spoke of a meeting that you attended of the
23 refugees of Prozor?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Do you see this order that has now been shown to you,
1 and from a reading of that order does that appear to be
2 consistent with the worsening or deterioration of the
3 situation in the Prozor area, and does it appear to
4 relate to that deterioration of relations between the
5 army of Bosnia-Herzegovina and the HVO at that
6 particular point in time?
7 MS. RESIDOVIC: Your Honour, I would like to mention that
8 the witness spoke about a meeting towards the end of
9 November, and this document is about August 1992, so it
10 does not relate to the question that has just been
12 MR. NIEMANN: I think it might, your Honour. I do think that
13 the refugees do not appear until after this military
14 action. I address the question to the General.
15 In relation to the second paragraph of this
16 document here, General, it relates to the to evacuation
17 the Muslim population. Do you see that reference there?
18 A. Yes, I do.
19 Q. The refugees you saw in that meeting in November of
20 1992, were they refugees that arose as a consequence of
21 this evacuation that took place because of the
22 deterioration of the situation between the HVO and the
23 army of Bosnia-Herzegovina?
24 A. The refugees I spoke of at the meeting in August were in
25 Prozor, and those were refugees that had to flee under
1 the pressure of the HVO which was already present in
2 Prozor, with all its forces. The aggression on Prozor
3 happened on the 24th October. At that time an even
4 greater number of refugees were expelled, but already in
5 the beginning, in July and August, people were leaving
6 the area of the town under pressure from HVO and their
7 units. These units -- those were the refugees I spoke
8 of. Here it is exactly meant, the refugees, just as it
9 is written, from a particular village.
10 JUDGE JAN: The position is not slightly clear to me. I
11 have the order of appointment for Zejnil Delalic as
12 commanding officer of the BiH army Tactical Group for
13 the areas of Hazici, Kazaric, Konjic and Jablanica.
14 This town Prozor, was it subsequently extended, the
15 authority, to Prozor also?
16 MR. NIEMANN: I am afraid I cannot answer your Honour, I do
17 not know. I will need to find that out. I do not know
18 if the General can assist us on that?
19 JUDGE JAN: You have seen that order. Prozor is not
20 mentioned there.
21 MR. NIEMANN: I am aware of that, yes.
22 MS. RESIDOVIC: Your Honour, may I draw your attention to
23 the fact that the Prosecutor has in no way shown the
24 authenticity or anything else linked to this document
25 which could approve or show to anybody anything, at the
1 least to this witness, because we do not know anything
2 about the document, who did it, when. This is a very
3 poor copy of the document. I think that the Prosecutor
4 has no grounds for using such a document even throughout
5 his examination, let alone to tender it to a witness.
6 MR. NIEMANN: Your Honours, firstly I am not seeking to
7 tender it through this witness. Secondly, it is
8 appropriate that the witness be shown a document that
9 relates to the deterioration in relations between the
10 HVO and the BiH armed forces. It is appropriate for the
11 Prosecution to present this, having regard to the fact
12 that the witness has attested to the events that
13 occurred subsequently in Prozor. It is appropriate,
14 your Honour, that the witness be shown this document,
15 notwithstanding its quality, having regard to the fact
16 that this is the best copy or quality copy that we were
17 given. We have not deliberately set about the process
18 of making it worse.
19 So, your Honours, if this witness is in a position
20 to express any views in relation to it, and I submit
21 that he is, having regard to the evidence that you have
22 already heard, then he should be permitted to express
23 those views.
24 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: You may continue.
25 MR. NIEMANN: Thank you. Again, General, do you see the
1 reference in the first paragraph to the withdrawal of
2 BiH armed forces? Do you know why that occurred?
3 A. I do not know whether this order had been realised or
5 Q. Were you aware of any evacuation of Muslim populations
6 having taken place in those areas that are mentioned
7 there, at about the end of August?
8 A. No. No, I was not aware of that.
9 Q. Perhaps that document might be returned to the
11 General, I would ask you to look at this document,
12 which I will now show you. This is also a new
14 Might it be given a new number, please, Madam
16 THE REGISTRAR: Prosecution Exhibit 190.
17 MR. NIEMANN: Thank you. Again, I seek to have this marked
18 for identification.
19 Your Honours, I note that it is 4.00 pm. Would
20 your Honours wish to adjourn now and we will resume
22 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: We shall now rise and come back at
24 (4.00 pm)
25 (Short break)
1 (4.30 pm)
2 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: You may take your seat, please.
3 Please remind the witness he is still on his oath.
4 THE REGISTRAR: I remind you, sir, that you are still under
6 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Do proceed, Mr. Niemann.
7 MR. NIEMANN: As your Honour pleases.
8 General Pasalic, just before the break I asked you
9 to look for me at document marked number 190. Did you
10 manage to do that for me?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. General, in this document, the second paragraph --
13 MR. O'SULLIVAN: Your Honours, I must object. This document
14 has been marked for identification purposes. I submit
15 the first question for the witness is to ask him whether
16 he can identify it, not to ask questions on it first.
17 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Yes, you may proceed, please.
18 MR. NIEMANN: As your Honour pleases.
19 General, in the second paragraph of the document
20 that you have seen there, there is a reference there to
21 percentages. From your experience in the field at that
22 particular time, and in particular during the year of
23 1992, were you aware of any practices in relation to
24 such matters that you are able to attest to?
25 A. Yes, there were such instances.
1 Q. And how did that operate? What was the purpose of that?
2 A. If you are referring to the percentages taken by the
3 Croatian Defence Council, I do not know what the purpose
4 was. It depended on the resources being taken.
5 Q. How did this come about? How were percentages of the
6 goods extracted as goods were carried? How did that
7 occur? Do you know?
8 A. Simply through the territory under the control of the
9 HVO. It was not possible to transport anything without
10 paying for it. If you did not have the funds, then you
11 had to give a certain percentages of those supplies to
12 the HVO, to ensure passage through that territory.
13 Q. And what was the consequence of not providing the
14 percentages? What happened if percentages were not
16 A. The consequences would be that you could not pass
17 through that part of territory. Sometimes, the
18 consequences would be that they would simply seize them
19 under threat of a conflict, under threat of use of arms,
20 so that you could no longer appear along that route, and
21 things like that.
22 Q. General, in the early part of the war, around May and
23 June, that early part, were there any arrangements
24 between the army of Bosnia-Herzegovina and the HVO for
25 sharing or exchanging of equipment that you were aware
2 A. We generally had many agreements, but few of them were
3 respected. I personally, as Commander of the Battalion,
4 Brigade, and later the Corps, I had a number of
5 arrangements with the HVO, but you would agree to
6 something at a meeting and then in practice something
7 else would happen. This was probably due to the
8 arbitrariness of some of the Commanders of the HVO, but
9 it was also due to the system of simply capturing
10 parts. For example, I got a 122 millimetre Howitzer
11 from the factory in Novi Travnik and the HVO seized it
12 when it was passing through territory under their
13 control. I never managed to get it back. There were
14 also physical attacks. Outside the control of the
15 system of the HVO and the BiH army a unit would
16 intercede a driver transporting the supply and simply
17 seize it from him.
18 Q. In the early time, in the early part of the war in early
19 May, April and May 1992, when the relations between the
20 HVO and the army of Bosnia-Herzegovina were not so
21 tense, were there times when both armies agreed to
22 exchange equipment and share equipment, that you are
23 aware of?
24 A. I had examples of using, together with the HVO, certain
25 equipment in the struggle against the remnants of the
1 former JNA and the Chetniks, as we called them then.
2 But we shared artillery, for instance, or we jointly
3 engaged in combat against the same aggressor.
4 Q. Was it necessary to, for you, in order to share this
5 equipment, to be authorised to do that, or is it
6 something that you could just do without authorisation?
7 A. As the Commander, I could not go beyond my zone unless
8 I had an appropriate document. I could not receive
9 equipment if I did not have the necessary authorisation,
10 and if I were to send my men to get equipment from the
11 storage, from the warehouse, I had to give them a
12 document, authorising them to take that equipment and
13 bring it to the command of my unit.
14 Q. Thank you. Would you look at the document that you are
15 now shown, please? This is a document that will need to
16 be given a number as well.
17 THE REGISTRAR: The document is marked Prosecution Exhibit
19 A. Yes, I have looked at it.
20 MR. NIEMANN: We need to wait for a moment, General.
21 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honours, with respect to Exhibit 191 and
22 other documents that have preceded it, just for the
23 purposes of the record, on behalf of Mr. Landzo, I want
24 to record our objection to this and all documents that
25 have been handled in this same way. My understanding of
1 what is happening is that documents that have no showing
2 of authenticity whatsoever are being shown to the
3 witness and, even more seriously, shown to the court,
4 the trier of fact in this case, with the representation
5 that, by Mr. Niemann, that he is not even trying to
6 tender them at this point.
7 I worry how, when we get down to this Tribunal
8 needing to make decisions in this case, you will ever be
9 able to separate in your minds what is evidence in the
10 case and what is not, because all day you have been
11 reading documents that I think will never come into
12 evidence, that the Prosecution has said they are not
13 even intending to tender at this point; and I am worried
14 about how that all finally works out. If it is the
15 court's position that this is an appropriate way to
16 present evidence, then I only hope that Mr. Niemann will
17 not object when we begin to do and use the same
18 procedure. Thank you.
19 MR. NIEMANN: Your Honours, I am surprised that Mr. Ackerman
20 has seen fit to suggest that your Honours may have
21 difficulty performing the task of sorting evidence.
22 I am disappointed that he has made such an observation.
23 It is regrettable that he would do so. I am sure your
24 Honours will have no difficulty in doing that when it
25 comes to findings. At the end of the day I am quite
1 sure that your Honours will be diligent in separating
2 that which is considered and accepted as evidence from
3 that which is rejected, or not accepted as evidence.
4 I am sure your Honours, and I have great confidence, in
5 fact, that your Honours have the capacity to do this.
6 Indeed, in the jurisdiction where Mr. Ackerman comes from
7 he is well aware that juries are often instructed to do
8 it. If juries can be instructed to do it then I have no
9 doubt whatsoever that people with legal training such as
10 your Honours could do it without any difficulty at all.
11 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Thank you very much. I actually I am
12 not surprised because many of the questions coming from
13 all the sides ignore the Rules.
14 MR. NIEMANN: Yes, your Honour.
15 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: So that is the real problem. But
16 I think we should be able to take care out of that. It
17 will not be a problem.
18 MR. NIEMANN: As your Honour pleases.
19 General, do you recognise the stamp that appears
20 on the base of that document?
21 A. This is the stamp of the former Socialist Republic of
22 Bosnia-Herzegovina, of the Ministry of Defence.
23 Q. Do you recognise the name of the person who has signed
24 it there?
25 A. In printed letters it says "Jerko Doko, graduate
1 economist". I do recognise it.
2 Q. Do you know who he was?
3 A. At the time he was Minister of Defence of
5 Q. You spoke earlier in your evidence of a need to have
6 authorisation to deal with equipment belonging to the
7 government of the Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina; is
8 this consistent with the types of authorisations that
9 would be required for that purpose?
10 A. This is an authorisation issued by the Minister Jerko
11 Doko in line with his function at the time and the
12 authorisation itself describes what is being authorised.
13 Q. General, do you know who it was that had ultimate
14 responsibility for prisoners of war that were detained
15 by members of the army of Bosnia-Herzegovina during the
16 course of 1992?
17 A. The concept of detention of prisoners of war, as the
18 Battalion Commander and Brigade Commander I had
19 prisoners of war which I captured in the course of
20 battle, and I was responsible for them as the Commander,
21 while they were in my unit, and I would hand them over
22 to the headquarters of the HVO with whom we engaged
23 jointly in operations against the same aggressor. The
24 continued proceedings were within the terms of reference
25 of that command.
1 Q. And above you, who was responsible for prisoners of war
2 in the -- who was your immediate superior responsible
3 for prisoners of war?
4 A. My superior at the time was the chief of staff of the
5 Supreme of Command, Sefer Halilovic, who was responsible
6 for the overall activities of the Territorial Defence
7 and the army of Bosnia-Herzegovina. We were
8 subordinated to him, within the chain of control and
9 command. He was probably also responsible for all other
10 matters, including the question of prisoners of war.
11 Q. And did you have any responsibility in terms of the
12 conditions of detention of prisoners of war that you had
14 A. No. I did not have those responsibilities. At the time
15 my unit was of such a level and rank that I did not have
16 any competence over captured men. My duty was to hand
17 them over to the responsible headquarters, and that was
18 the HVO headquarters in Mostar.
19 Q. Now, in circumstances where the HVO were not
20 responsible, who would then be responsible for the
21 prisoners of war?
22 A. If they were captured by my unit, I was responsible as
23 the Commander until I handed them over to the next level
24 of authority.
25 Q. What responsibility did you have to these prisoners of
1 war during the time that they were in your custody, that
2 is prior to them being handed over?
3 A. My responsibilities were those included in the general
4 instructions of the Superior Command. Our orders were
5 that prisoners of war should be disarmed, secured,
6 escorted and handed over to competent authorities for
7 further proceedings.
8 Q. During your training as a military officer, did you
9 receive any special training with respect to the
10 receiving and treatment of prisoners of war?
11 A. Through my training in the former Yugoslav People's
12 Army, through secondary military schools, the Academy
13 and the High Academy, we had certain subjects taught
14 regarding the treatment of prisoners of war. We
15 reviewed and studied and were taught the Geneva and
16 other Conventions relevant to prisoners of war. With
17 the beginning of the war, we in the BiH army did not
18 have any specific training, because there was no time
19 for it, but we were given certain instructions regarding
20 the treatment of the people who are captured.
21 Q. And what were those certain instruction that is you were
23 A. To treat captured soldiers and people in the spirit of
24 the Geneva Conventions, that they should not be exposed
25 to any other pressure or arbitrary treatment by
1 individuals, or any other group of people; that they had
2 to be under the control of the responsible command, and
3 should be accommodated in places specially assigned for
4 that purpose.
5 Q. And to whom were these instructions given?
6 A. They were given to those of us who were in charge of
7 units. I received such instructions as the Commander of
8 the Battalion and the Brigade in that period.
9 Q. Now, what would be the consequences to you, if you had
10 failed to comply with those instructions? Do you know?
11 A. I do not know what the consequences would have been, but
12 it is my duty to carry out the orders of my superiors.
13 If that order includes instructions regarding the
14 treatment of captured people, if I fail to follow those
15 orders, actions are determined by my superior.
16 Q. Could you have faced disciplinary action by your
17 superiors if you had failed to comply with these orders
18 in relation to captured persons?
19 A. I do not know whether they could have taken such
20 measures, but I have said what the conditions were. My
21 superior, that is chief of staff Sefer Halilovic, at the
22 time was in Sarajevo under siege. Our contacts were by
23 means of radio and possibly by messenger. He probably
24 could not fully implement all those measures, but he
25 would have probably in some other ways sought to
1 sanction my errors. I did not have any such example
2 when I should have come under any sanctions, so I cannot
3 say what he would have done.
4 Q. Did you ever have occasion to discipline soldiers under
5 your command for failing to comply with your orders with
6 respect to the treatment of captured persons?
7 A. I did not have any such instances of soldiers treating
8 prisoners in a way that would require any disciplinary
9 measures in the period of the formation of the 4th Corp.
10 Q. General, do you know why Serb prisoners were being held
11 in the Celebici camp?
12 A. I do not know who the prisoners were by name, nor their
13 ethnic or social origin. I was told that people had
14 been isolated in the premises of the former JNA
15 warehouse in Celebici, that they were there in the
16 hangar. They told me I was told that they were mostly
17 of Serb ethnicity, but I do not know individually.
18 I gave the commission the task to investigate who those
19 people were, whether they were members of the former
20 JNA, whether they were soldiers, in fact to investigate
21 who those people were, and to report to the competent
22 courts for further proceedings.
23 Later on, I required that those people from my
24 area of responsibility should be handed over to the
25 civilian judiciary authorities for further proceedings,
1 and I think it was at the end of December that
2 I actually did this with a written order.
3 MR. NIEMANN: General, I would ask you now to look at Exhibit
4 137, and I have a copy for your Honours and for the
5 Defence of this exhibit.
6 General, do you recognise this document?
7 A. Yes, I do.
8 Q. And why do you recognise it?
9 A. I cannot hear too well in my earphones.
10 Q. Can you hear me now?
11 A. Yes, but I have also got noise in the headphones.
12 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Try to make an adjustment and see
13 whether you can improve on it.
14 MR. NIEMANN: I will speak for a moment and see if you can
15 hear me. Can you hear me now? Does that sound better?
16 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Yes, we will try to get one of the
17 technicians to check it.
18 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Is there any improvement?
19 A. Yes, it is better.
20 MR. NIEMANN: Thank you, General.
21 General, how is it that you recognise this
22 document? How is it that you are able to recognise it?
23 A. This is my report to the staff of the army of
24 Bosnia-Herzegovina, addressed personally to the chief of
25 staff, Sefer Halilovic.
1 Q. And it is dated 7th December, 1992, is that correct?
2 A. Yes, it is.
3 Q. And did you affix your signature to this document?
4 A. I think I did. It is not here, because this had been
5 sent by fax, but I think that I signed it.
6 Q. And, General, there are a number of names mentioned
7 thereof, persons that you have ordered to be detained
8 for 30 days. Firstly, the name Edib Saric; did you know
9 that person yourself?
10 A. Yes, I met him in the war.
11 Q. And are you able to confirm whether he did indeed hold
12 the position of Commander of the Tactical Group -- of
13 assistant to the Commander of Tactical Group 1?
14 A. Yes, he held that office.
15 Q. And the next named person there, Hazim Delic, were you
16 able, as a result of your inquiries, to establish that
17 he held the position of Deputy Commander of the Celebici
19 A. The officers, the functions that were held and that are
20 listed here are the ones I was informed of by the
21 Committee for Investigation; and they have established
23 Q. As a result of the commission that you -- the commission
24 that you ordered, were you informed of the positions
25 held by the next two named persons, numbers 4 and 5,
1 Esad Landzo and Osman Dedic, or do you not know?
2 A. They informed me that these persons whose names first
3 and last are stated here and that office, the duty they
4 did, were on the territory of Konjic. For Esad Landzo
5 and Osman Dedic there is no position that they held that
6 is noted here, because I did not know what concrete
7 specific duties they had.
8 Q. And finally, down in the last paragraph, there is a
9 reference there to the issue of arrest warrant by MUP,
10 and there is also a reference to Interpol. Had you
11 sought an Interpol warrant at that stage because
12 Mr. Zejnil Delalic and Mucic had left the territory by
13 that stage?
14 A. At point 4, IV, I asked the chief of staff to give an
15 approval for Zejnil Delalic as the Commander of the
16 Tactical Group and Mucic as the Commander of the prison,
17 so that the warrant for arrest be issued by the Ministry
18 of Internal Affairs, the MUP, and the Interpol, because
19 they had the territory. As I was not competent to issue
20 such a warrant I asked that from the chief of staff of
21 the Supreme Command, superior officer.
22 Q. Was that the only reason why you wrote to the chief of
23 staff, to the Supreme Command, or did you report to him
24 for any other reason?
25 A. Point 4 is the last one in this report and the rest of
1 the report is given under numbers 1, 2 and 3 -- I, II
2 and III. The last paragraphs ask for an arrest warrant
3 to be issued and also to start criminal proceedings and
4 take criminal charges in absentia because the committee
5 has established that there were elements for criminal
6 charges against them.
7 Q. And did you report this to Sefer Halilovic, because he
8 was your Commander, your immediate superior?
9 A. Yes. The report is addressed to him.
10 MR. NIEMANN: And I might just ask the Registrar to confirm
11 that this has been admitted into evidence, your Honours,
12 please? Whether or not it has been admitted?
13 THE REGISTRAR: This document was admitted into evidence by
14 the oral decision of the Trial Chamber on the 10th
15 September, 1997.
16 MS. RESIDOVIC: I am sorry, your Honour, but what we have
17 just heard does not -- is not consistent with the ruling
18 in the transcript of this Tribunal on that day. We only
19 heard by the Trial Chamber the decision about the
20 legality of the proceedings. But there was, in no case,
21 anything about the admission of any of the documents
22 that were in the folders.
23 To my specific question the Trial Chamber has
24 answered, and this is in the transcript, that relating
25 to every document it will be necessary to determine the
1 authenticity of that document and relevance of the
2 document and only then decide upon the admitting of
3 these documents into evidence. If there was any
4 difference about the decision of the Trial Chamber, we
5 want everything to check why this decision of the
6 Tribunal was written in such a way in the transcript.
7 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Mr. Niemann, can we hear your reply,
8 because you have before you the person who actually has
9 claimed to have signed this?
10 MR. NIEMANN: Yes, and I tender it, if there is any doubt
11 about the question. Because he is here, we do not
12 envisage him coming back. As he is the author of the
13 document, he has described its contents, he has
14 recognised it. I would tender it if it has not been
15 tendered. Alternatively, if it has been tendered then,
16 your Honours, I would argue that it may now be accepted
17 for the truth of its contents, having regard to the
18 evidence of this witness.
19 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: I am not sure it could be tendered by
20 anybody else other than the author, the person who
21 actually signed it, because I do not see how the
22 authenticity could be accepted except by the person who
23 actually signed it. I am not certain that it was
24 tendered to prove that this was the contents of this.
25 MR. NIEMANN: If it has not been, your Honour, I tender it
1 and I ask that it be accepted into evidence of the truth
2 of its contents.
3 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: If you have any objections let us know,
4 because the General who actually signed it is before the
5 Trial Chamber.
6 MS. RESIDOVIC: Your Honour, at this moment we have no
7 objection to the admission into evidence of this
8 document, since the General has recognised it. But I
9 have an objection to every single document that has been
10 shown up to now from those folders nobody has ever seen.
11 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: When a document has been recovered from
12 someone it could be admitted as what he recovered. It
13 does not contend the contents which have to be
14 established by the person who actually made it. Now,
15 here is the person who actually signed the document
16 before you. I do not see what your arguments would be.
17 It could be admitted in evidence as a document signed by
19 MR. NIEMANN: I would ask also that Exhibit 114, the video
20 tape, be admitted on the same basis.
21 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Yes, because that is the person that
22 gave the interview.
23 MR. NIEMANN: He gave the interview.
24 MR. MORAN: Your Honour, as to 114, we have no objection to
25 those portions involving the General. Any extraneous
1 things that happened beyond there --
2 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Shall not be part of it.
3 MR. MORAN: That is our objection. We agree with the court.
4 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Just his interview.
5 MR. MORAN: That is correct. We have no objection to that.
6 MR. NIEMANN: If your Honours please.
7 General, I would ask you now to be shown Exhibit
8 141. Again, I have a copy for your Honours and for the
10 General, have you had an opportunity to look at
11 the document I have now shown you?
12 MR. MORAN: Your Honour, we would object to any testimony
13 about this document, in that it suggests an extraneous
14 criminal offence which is not admissible under Rule 92
15 -- excuse me, your Honour, Rule 93; I am sorry, Rule
17 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: What does Rule 93 say?
18 MR. MORAN: Your Honour, Rule 93 is an exception to the
19 general rule that proof of other crimes is
20 inadmissible. The exception is if it is a consistent
21 pattern of violations of international humanitarian law
22 recognisable under the Statute it is admissible.
23 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: I do not think this is proving anything
24 like that against him. Even what this contains is
25 accusation. This establishes nothing.
1 MR. NIEMANN: I should make it clear that in the Prosecution
2 -- the Prosecution does not seek to tender this in
3 relation to the truth of any of the allegations
4 contained in it. It is not sought to do that for that
5 purpose at all. I make the observation, your Honours,
6 that it does not face the objection that one might have,
7 should it be a finding of a court which the Prosecution
8 or a party may press upon your Honours to be a finding
9 that your Honours should accept, but nevertheless, even
10 though it does not go to that, in any event the
11 Prosecution seeks to tender this on the basis that it
12 refers to the persons mentioned and the ranks,
13 responsibilities and duties ascribed to them by the
14 document itself. That is the basis upon which the
15 Prosecution seeks to tender it. It does not seek to, in
16 any way, rely upon the allegations made therein.
17 JUDGE JAN: From this there is another aspect. This
18 document explains why the General had requested that the
19 warrant be issued, this document which is a report to
20 the chief of staff. It does not mention why a warrant
21 was being sought against the -- against Zejnil Delalic.
22 This document explains why, what were the charges
23 against him. In fact, you should welcome this
24 particular document, instead of opposing it.
25 MR. MORAN: Your Honour, I would normally, except this
1 accuses my client of a murder.
2 JUDGE JAN: It may be. But that is nothing to do with us.
3 He has not been charged with the murder of Nurko
4 Delalil. This in fact explains the request by the
5 General to his superior that warrants be issued for his
6 arrest. In fact, you should welcome this document.
7 MR. MORAN: In the normal course of business I would. Any
8 probative value it has is clearly outweighed by the
9 prejudicial value of calling my guy a murderer.
10 JUDGE JAN: It is merely an allegation, it has not been said
11 it has been proved.
12 MR. MORAN: That is correct, it is merely an allegation.
13 MR. NIEMANN: An allegation I ask your Honours to disregard.
14 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: It has nothing to do with us. I accept
15 there are other facts which may be relevant to the
16 charges against him.
17 MR. NIEMANN: General, do you recognise this document?
18 A. I do.
19 Q. Why is it that you are able to recognise the document?
20 A. I recognise this document for its contents and because
21 here there is my name, first and last name, after I have
22 reported to the chief of staff of the Supreme Command
23 and asked for a warrant of arrest to be issued.
24 I received an approval that I could undertake criminal
25 proceedings, that is, to ask for a criminal charges
1 against these people.
2 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Yes, you may continue, please.
3 MR. NIEMANN: If your Honours please. And the persons that
4 are named therein, namely Zejnil Delalic, Esad -- Zejnil
5 Delalic, Hazim Delic, Zdravko Mucic also known as Pavo,
6 are they persons who were the subject of your
7 investigation as was referred to in the previous
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. And are the duties and ranks ascribed to those persons
11 in this document, so far as you are aware, correct for
12 the time, at the relevant time?
13 A. At that time, we had no ranks, we only had duties, but
14 the committee that performed -- that carried out the
15 investigation informed me that against these persons
16 criminal charges should be started, and I did it at the
17 District Military Court under the orders of the chief of
18 staff, of the general staff of the Bosnia-Herzegovina
20 Q. General, my question was: so far as you are aware, were
21 the positions ascribed to the persons named in this
22 document correct, so far as you are concerned, or were
24 A. Yes.
25 MR. NIEMANN: I tender this document, your Honour. The truth
1 of its contents in relation to the limited purpose of
2 the names and the positions that are ascribed to the
3 persons contained therein.
4 JUDGE JAN: I would just like to ask a question of the
5 General at this stage. These charges were prepared on
6 the basis of the report of the commission that you had
7 set up?
8 A. On the basis of the report of the commission, which
9 carried out investigations, the investigative
10 proceedings, and on the basis of the approval of the
11 chief of staff, because I cannot press any charges or
12 start any proceedings if I have not received the
13 approval of my superior officers.
14 MR. NIEMANN: Your Honours, I am almost finished. I have
15 some more questions and some more documents, but there
16 is not much more of my evidence to go, but I note the
17 time. Would your Honours wish to rise now, would that
18 be a convenient time?
19 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: It depends how much longer you intend
20 to be.
21 MR. NIEMANN: It is going to be at least half an hour.
22 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Okay, we can conclude tomorrow morning,
23 so that cross-examination can carry on.
24 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honours, before you leave, just as a
25 matter of planning, I might inquire of the Prosecutor,
1 it appears that this witness' testimony will probably go
2 through the day tomorrow. Does the Prosecutor intend to
3 continue calling the current list of witnesses into next
4 week? It seems apparent that is where we are going.
5 MR. NIEMANN: The best I can answer at the moment, your
6 Honours, is that the witnesses are on subpoena, so it
7 may be that we need to see, if they go back to Sarajevo,
8 whether they will come back again. That may be a matter
9 which we may need to spend some time on tomorrow
10 afternoon, resolving. So to answer the question, we
11 will proceed on -- our intention is to proceed on
12 Monday, with witnesses who have been subject to
13 subpoena, for that one day only. We have the other
14 witness that we would be seeking to take the evidence
15 from, Professor Economides. Professor Gow we have been
16 able to move to another week.
17 I say this, your Honour, knowing that I have not
18 got your Honour's leave to call these witnesses, but,
19 because I have been asked a question about timing, this
20 is our plan. So Professor Gow would go over to the
21 following week, and we would proceed on Monday with
22 these witnesses, and then the next witness would be
23 ^ name Professor Economides merely because he needs --
24 that is the only time he has available to testify. Then
25 we would resume with the witnesses subject to subpoena.
1 Then, on the following Monday, the evidence of
2 Gow. That is about the best estimate I am able to give
3 at the moment.
4 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honours, there is a concern with respect
5 to Professor Gow that I want to bring to the attention
6 of the Trial Chamber so it does not look like we are
7 sneaking up on the Trial Chamber in some way. There is
8 an enormous list of publications by Dr. Gow regarding
9 the war in Yugoslavia. We would be remiss in our duties
10 to our clients if we did not acquire copies of all those
11 publications and study them before cross-examining him.
12 We have been unwilling to expend the Tribunal's money in
13 gathering those documents. It will be a very, very
14 expensive process, until the issue of whether or not the
15 Trial Chamber is going to permit the Prosecution to call
16 him or not has been decided. And so there is a timing
17 problem that I would like the Chamber to be aware of.
18 The documents are very, very extensive, and very, very
19 expensive to gather together. That is a concern we are
20 all sharing at this point.
21 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Do you really need every publication?
22 MR. ACKERMAN: Not every publication, just every writing that
23 he has done with regard to the war in Yugoslavia. I do
24 not care about his writings about the Gulf war, but his
25 writings about Yugoslavia I would like ...
1 MR. MORAN: Your Honour, if it helped the court, I can say
2 that there are 15 writings in the Jaynes' publications
3 alone related to Yugoslavia. But I also have a concern
4 related to Professor Economides; I spent a good deal of
5 yesterday on the Internet trying to find out about
6 Professor Economides and he is supposedly on some
7 organisation or commission for democracy of law in
8 Europe, that kind of thing. I found one reference to
9 Professor Economides, which is he is on some totally
10 different commission in Europe. I found no references
11 at all to the Commission for Law and Democracy in
12 Europe. He is supposedly the reporter for a nationality
13 citizenship study done by that Commission and I cannot
14 find anything out about it. I think that would probably
15 be highly relevant to his testimony. I would sure like
16 to have that. I cannot find it.
17 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: You are doubting his expertise?
18 MR. MORAN: Your Honour, you know what I know about him.
19 I just told you everything I know about the man.
20 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: If you fear that he might be useful why
21 do you bother?
22 MR. MORAN: Like I say, your Honour, it would be useful to me
23 if he had some prior writings on this subject.
24 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Thus if he has no real authority on
25 what he is saying, why do you think about that?
1 MR. MORAN: Thank you very much, your Honour.
2 MR. NIEMANN: To assist Mr. Moran on this matter, he is on the
3 United Nations International Law Commission.
4 MR. MORAN: I understand he is now on the ILC, but that
5 documents given to us by the Office of the Prosecutor,
6 relayed to me by Mr. Ackerman while I was in Houston,
7 listed this other organisation that I cannot find
8 anything about, and that he was the reporter for a study
9 that was done on nationalities and citizenship. I think
10 that would probably be one of the documents I would like
11 to get my hands on. If the Prosecutor has it, I would
12 be happy to borrow it ...
13 MR. NIEMANN: I do not have it. If I can obtain access to
14 it, I would be quite happy to share it.
15 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: What we are not sure is are the Defence
16 willing to argue the motion for allowing the experts to
17 be called? I think that makes life easier.
18 MR. MORAN: Your Honour, I would be prepared to do it at 10
19 o'clock tomorrow morning. There is a document sitting
20 in my hotel room that I would like to be able to copy
21 and hand to the Trial Chamber, that relates, I think,
22 directly to one of the two proposed experts.
23 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: So we will dispose of it tomorrow
24 morning. Then we will know where we stand. Okay. The
25 Trial Chamber will now rise.
1 (5.35 pm)
2 (Adjourned until 10.00 am
3 on Thursday, 23rd October, 1997)