The International Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Case No.IT-96-21

  1. 1 Wednesday, 29th October 1997

    2 (10.00 am)

    3 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Good morning, ladies and gentlemen.

    4 May we have the appearances now?

    5 MR. NIEMANN: Your Honours please, my name is Niemann and

    6 I appear with my colleagues Mr. Turone, Ms. McHenry and

    7 Mr. Khan for the Prosecution.

    8 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Appearances for the Defence, please.

    9 MS. RESIDOVIC: Good morning, your Honours. I am Edina

    10 Residovic, appearing on behalf of Mr. Zejnil Delalic with

    11 my colleague, Eugene O'Sullivan, professor from Canada.

    12 MR. OLUJIC: Good morning, your Honours. My name is Zeljko

    13 Olujic, attorney from Croatia appearing on behalf of

    14 Mr. Zdravko Mucic with my colleague Michael Greaves,

    15 attorney from UK, Great Britain and Northern Ireland.

    16 MR. KARABDIC: Good morning, I am Salih Karabdic, attorney

    17 from Sarajevo, appearing on Mr. Hazim Delic, together

    18 with Mr. Thomas Moran, attorney from Houston, Texas.

    19 MR. ACKERMAN: Good morning, your Honours. I am John

    20 Ackerman and along with Ms. Cynthia McMurrey I appear

    21 on behalf of Mr. Esad Landzo.

    22 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Thank you very much. Can we have the

    23 witness?

    24 MS. McHENRY: While the witness is being brought in, may

    25 I mention a matter that arose yesterday after court,

  2. 1 which is just the translation informed Mr. Greaves and

    2 myself that they had improperly translated to the

    3 witness one of Mr. Greaves's questions towards the end of

    4 his questioning. In particular Mr. Greaves had asked a

    5 question concerning the detention of "civilians" and it

    6 was interpreted as the detention of "individuals".

    7 I believe that creates some ambiguity in the transcript,

    8 particularly when in response to a follow-up question

    9 the witness said, "not civilians, soldiers".

    10 Mr. Greaves, for his own reasons, has determined

    11 that he did not wish to raise this with the Chamber, but

    12 I think it creates an ambiguity and either that needs to

    13 be placed on the record that the witness was not

    14 answering the question as asked by Mr. Greaves, or

    15 Mr. Greaves may choose to ask it again. Thank you.

    16 (Witness enters court)

    17 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Mr. Greaves, what do you think is your

    18 solution to the confusion?

    19 MR. GREAVES: I have no observations to make.

    20 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Thank you. Ms. Residovic, you can now

    21 continue. Would you remind the witness that he is still

    22 under his oath.

    23 THE REGISTRAR: I should like to remind you, sir, that you

    24 are still under oath.

    25 GENERAL JOVAN DIVJAK (continued)

  3. 1 Cross-examination by MS. RESIDOVIC (continued)

    2 MS. RESIDOVIC: Good morning, General.

    3 A. Good morning.

    4 Q. As you know, I am Edina Residovic, Defence counsel of

    5 Mr. Zejnil Delalic. General, we have met several times

    6 in our lives and especially during the war. These are

    7 facts which I wish the court to be familiar with.

    8 General, in the course of the day yesterday,

    9 answering questions put to you by the Prosecution and my

    10 colleagues, I understood, though this I felt, though

    11 that may not be my duty or my right, to convey to you a

    12 few things. First, to facilitate our work here I should

    13 like to remind you that we are speaking the same

    14 language and when I put a question to you you could

    15 answer it immediately. However, the interpreters in the

    16 booths could not interpret what we are saying equally

    17 fast. So when I put a question to you, will you please

    18 wait until you hear the end of the interpretation in the

    19 earphones on the table and begin your answer only then

    20 and then everyone will be able to follow and the

    21 transcript will be correct.

    22 Secondly, our own experiences, our culture and our

    23 legal system is such that we are rather relaxed in

    24 court, sometimes we feel free to make a joke. However,

    25 the rules of this Tribunal are rather strict, so

  4. 1 I should like to ask you to try to answer my questions

    2 quite directly, because it seemed to me that some of my

    3 colleagues did not quite understand one of your jokes.

    4 This is not something that we can correct in court, nor

    5 can we correct ourselves.

    6 Another point I should like to make, and something

    7 that is quite contrary to our own legal procedure, it is

    8 the right of the Defence to ask questions and to put

    9 suggestive or leading questions. In our system that is

    10 inconceivable, however according to this system this is

    11 one of the main rules of the cross-examination.

    12 I hope you understand, General, that these remarks

    13 have been made in good faith, and in the interest of

    14 proper understanding amongst all of us in the course of

    15 these proceedings?

    16 A. Your Honours, madam, the remarks that you have made

    17 I understand as certain instructions how I should deal

    18 with the Defence; but at the same time I should like to

    19 tell the Defence that they should -- -- they have their

    20 own dignity and I would not allow anyone to offend that

    21 dignity, and I fully accept to answer questions in the

    22 way you have suggested. Since you have already observed

    23 that we know one another, then you also know my state of

    24 mind. I am a little bit moved by what you have said and

    25 I accept your instructions, but I also hold dearly of my

  5. 1 dignity.

    2 MS. RESIDOVIC: Your Honours, I did not wish to offend

    3 anyone, especially not the General, but the things

    4 I have conveyed to you now took me a year to learn in

    5 this Tribunal and very often I felt the same way that

    6 you are feeling now. As I friend, I wanted to share

    7 those feelings with you. If I have hurt you in any way

    8 at all, please accept my apologies.

    9 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Thank you very much. You may well

    10 proceed now.

    11 MS. RESIDOVIC: General, in answer to questions by the

    12 Prosecution you said that you were a retired General of

    13 the army of Bosnia-Herzegovina?

    14 A. Yes, as of March 1st, 1997, I retired with the rank of

    15 Brigadier General of the army of Bosnia-Herzegovina.

    16 Q. You also said that before the war too you were a

    17 professional soldier and that you held the rank of

    18 Colonel in the former Yugoslav People's Army?

    19 A. When the aggression on Bosnia-Herzegovina started, I was

    20 in the Territorial Defence of the Republic of

    21 Bosnia-Herzegovina, with the rank of Colonel. The

    22 Territorial Defence of Bosnia-Herzegovina was not under

    23 the direct command of the Yugoslav People's Army, though

    24 within the framework of the control and command it does

    25 belong to it. It was independent of the elements

  6. 1 belonging to the Yugoslav People's Army.

    2 Q. Thank you. Precisely in that Territorial Defence, as

    3 you yourself explained yesterday, you were, for a time,

    4 Commander of the district staff of the Territorial

    5 Defence of Mostar, were you not?

    6 A. In the period from October 1984 until September 1995

    7 I was Commander of the district of Mostar. From

    8 September 1985 to the 6th April, 1992, I was in the

    9 Territorial Defence, the district staff of Sarajevo.

    10 Q. Something you did not say and which you can confirm in

    11 court, at that time and perhaps even today you were

    12 Professor at the Department of Political Science,

    13 Department of Defence in Sarajevo, were you not?

    14 A. Unfortunately, I am not a professor at the faculty that

    15 you have mentioned.

    16 Q. I am sorry, I was misinformed. General, my colleagues,

    17 and both on the side of the Prosecution and the Defence,

    18 have put to you a large number of questions which you

    19 have very skilfully answered, so I should like to avoid

    20 repeating them, though originally I had planned to put

    21 some of those questions to you myself. However, in

    22 spite of that, I will have a significant number of

    23 questions, and I shall try to make myself as clear as

    24 possible. If I am not successful, please tell me, so

    25 that I can make my question clearer and more precise to

  7. 1 facilitate your answer.

    2 Yesterday we discussed a number of questions and a

    3 number of subjects. You were shown a large number of

    4 documents, and I should now like to ask you some

    5 questions in the interest of precision and clarity for

    6 the benefit of the Trial Chamber.

    7 Will you tell me, please, General, whether you

    8 know somebody called Smiljko Sagolj?

    9 A. Will you be more specific?

    10 Q. Smiljko Sagolj, reporter on the television of the

    11 Croatian Community of Herceg Bosna?

    12 A. I do not know him personally. I know him like many

    13 others who appeared on the TV screens of

    14 Bosnia-Herzegovina. I remember him from the period of

    15 April to June/July 1992.

    16 Q. Do you know, General, that this journalist, like others,

    17 especially on the Herceg Bosna TV programmes, as well as

    18 in other TV programmes, in the period of 1992/93,

    19 broadcast misinformation, forgeries and misleading

    20 reports, probably in the interest of propaganda, are you

    21 aware of that?

    22 A. Very superficially. When I say that, with the exception

    23 of maybe two articles which were a commentary appearing

    24 in our press in response to his reports, with the

    25 exception of those two articles, I was not in a position

  8. 1 to watch Croatian television or Herceg Bosna television,

    2 nor did I have access to the articles he wrote. But

    3 I am familiar with his overall view expressed by Sagolj,

    4 again indirectly through what I read in the papers.

    5 Q. I believe, General, that you know that using Herceg

    6 Bosna television he broadcast lies linked to you and

    7 your arrest in November 1992. Are you aware of that?

    8 A. No, I am not; but I do know that something along those

    9 lines was also done by reporters from Mostar. I know,

    10 for instance, that a report on our arrest was written by

    11 I think his name was Sehovic, please help me, his

    12 reporter was, Sahsudin, his name was, he was a reporter

    13 in Mostar.

    14 Q. So you will agree, General, when I say that in that

    15 period a large number of untruths were broadcast as part

    16 of the propaganda and to achieve the propaganda

    17 objectives and goals of certain elements?

    18 A. Yes; and if I may add, let me tell you something that

    19 you may not know, and that is on 27th October at a press

    20 conference in Mostar Mr. Rajic spoke about a military

    21 coup in Bosnia-Herzegovina at a time when Mr. Izetbegovic

    22 was in New York, and the list included some dozen names,

    23 including Mr. Ganic, Mr. Sefer Halilovic, Mr. Pasalic,

    24 Zejnil Delalic, Jovan Divjak; and I have an excerpt from

    25 a report in the press where he says among other things

  9. 1 that I am a proven Chetnik and that I am still connected

    2 to Milosevic, so that it is not just Sagolj, but also a

    3 representative of the HDZ in October 1992 spoke along

    4 the lines that you have just described here in court.

    5 Q. Thank you, General, for these concrete examples of such

    6 behaviour. Before I come back to this question, I have

    7 something else to ask. Is it true, General, that our

    8 main headquarters, our Commanders and the army as a

    9 whole never used the term "Muslim/Serb conflict" or

    10 "Muslim/Croatian forces", but on the contrary that it

    11 always responded very sharply when any such terms

    12 appeared either in the domestic or in the foreign press,

    13 is that correct?

    14 A. I think it depended on the region, but in May, at the

    15 level of the Supreme Headquarters of Bosnia-Herzegovina,

    16 we issued instructions determining which terms should be

    17 used when referring to the aggressor. However, at lower

    18 levels, where, as we said yesterday, due to

    19 communication problems these instructions may not have

    20 reached everyone, there were such instances of the use

    21 of such terms. However, the official position of the

    22 state of Bosnia-Herzegovina and the army was to use the

    23 terminology which would show that we were dealing with

    24 the Serbian-Montenegrin aggressor, that we did not use

    25 names of certain groups like Chetniks, Ostashas, Muslim

  10. 1 Bosniaks, et cetera. It had to be clear who the

    2 aggressors was, that the peoples of Bosnia-Herzegovina

    3 were in jeopardy, that the army of Bosnia-Herzegovina

    4 was a multinational entity and as such it defended this

    5 idea.

    6 As I said, at lower echelons there was greater

    7 freedom in the use of terms. I do not know whether I

    8 have made myself clear.

    9 Q. Yes, thank you. Is it true, General, that yesterday you

    10 testified before this court that the attack on Prozor

    11 occurred on 23rd October by HVO units and some units of

    12 the Croatian army. It was a totally surprise attack and

    13 I think that the tank unit was commanded by Ante Smidt,

    14 as you said?

    15 A. In view of the data I had access to at the time, and

    16 what the joint commission in which the army of

    17 Bosnia-Herzegovina was represented by Mr. Karic and

    18 Mr. Pasalic, according to those data, the Croatian

    19 Defence Council, in collaboration with parts of the

    20 Croatian army, and I mentioned Major Smidt. I did not

    21 remember his first name. I later learned that he was

    22 killed in the battles for Vakuf.

    23 Q. General, is it also true that our army, though it was

    24 not very strong and not very well armed, but imbued by

    25 patriotism and the need to defend the country, had as

  11. 1 its main goal even then, that is in 1992, to do

    2 everything it could to liberate temporarily occupied

    3 areas, is that correct?

    4 A. The main goal was, with the help of available equipment

    5 and material, to preserve in the first place the Bosniak

    6 people in the areas where they were in jeopardy as a

    7 result of the aggression, and that in other ways,

    8 including by military means, to assist the people,

    9 especially Bosniaks, who, as a result of this surprise

    10 aggression on Bosnia-Herzegovina, found themselves on

    11 temporarily occupied territory, because

    12 Bosnia-Herzegovina, I repeat, was recognised on 6th by

    13 the European Community and in May I think it was

    14 somewhere on the 18th or the 20th, it was admitted as

    15 the 177th member of the United Nations.

    16 There were some attempts to reach those who were

    17 under the control of the SDS forces, that was in the

    18 first period before the forces of the SDS were

    19 transformed into the army of Republika Srpska, but in

    20 most cases these attempts failed, that is to pull out

    21 the population from the area which the aggressor had

    22 temporarily occupied, because we did not have the

    23 material or technical means, nor the necessary

    24 organisation or defence structures to carry this out.

    25 Q. General, is it still true to say that the forces of the

  12. 1 army of Bosnia-Herzegovina were actually retreating in

    2 most cases? I am not talking about exceptions, our

    3 forces retreated when in the military sense it was

    4 simply not possible to defend an area any more, is that

    5 correct?

    6 A. In tactics there is another concept which is more

    7 realistic and that is it, through battle, it took up

    8 positions that were more favourable and from which it

    9 could more successfully organise the defence, because

    10 "retreat" implies something that is not always fully

    11 organised.

    12 Q. Thank you. I should now like to show the General once

    13 again Prosecutor's Exhibit 189, so that I may ask a

    14 couple of questions. I should like to ask you, General,

    15 to look, once again, at this document, the dates, the

    16 names, and if possible the contents. May I now ask you

    17 a few questions?

    18 A. Yes, please.

    19 Q. Is it true, General, that the attack on Prozor was

    20 carried out on the 23rd October, and that this document

    21 is dated 28th August, 1992?

    22 A. Correct.

    23 Q. Is it correct, General, that you did not see this

    24 document in 1992, you actually saw it during the

    25 preparations for your testimony in this court, is that

  13. 1 true?

    2 A. Yes.

    3 Q. Is it true that in this preamble of this document

    4 reference is made to a Croatian Muslim incident?

    5 A. Yes, of the 27th August, 1992.

    6 Q. According to the instructions issued by the Supreme

    7 Command and what you said today, would it be normal for

    8 a Commander of a Tactical Group to refer to a Croat, to

    9 talk about a conflict between the army of

    10 Bosnia-Herzegovina and the HVO?

    11 A. If his task as a Commander of the Tactical Group was to

    12 assist in dealing with an incident then he is obliged to

    13 say why he is issuing a certain order. So he is making

    14 this order because of an incident that occurred between

    15 the HVO and the BiH armed forces in Prozor.

    16 Q. When you look at this document, General, judging by the

    17 date and the terms used and the instructions given, does

    18 this document resemble documents that were in

    19 circulation in those days as forgeries by the HVO?

    20 A. I am not aware of that.

    21 Q. Thank you. You said, General, that before the attack on

    22 Prozor you came to Konjic and that at the time of the

    23 attack, that is on 23rd and the 24th October, you were

    24 in Konjic, is that correct?

    25 A. If I may clear that point up, I did not come because of

  14. 1 the attack or because Prozor had been attacked, but on

    2 the 17th October I was for the first time in the area of

    3 Jablanica and that same day I was in Konjic, and for the

    4 next five days after the 23rd and 24th I toured the army

    5 units in the area of Jablanica and Konjic, and during a

    6 briefing of commanders of municipal staffs of the armed

    7 forces, I learned of the problems linked to Prozor and,

    8 as it is stated here, repeated incidents between the HVO

    9 and the BiH army.

    10 Q. You also said yesterday that you were informed, you and

    11 the others present in Konjic at the time, from the

    12 Commander of the TO Prozor, General Sabic, so could the

    13 Exhibit 89/1, clip 1 and 2, be shown to the witness so I

    14 may ask a few more questions? Can the technical booth

    15 please show us the video?

    16 (Video shown)

    17 THE INTERPRETER: Sorry, we saw this videotape yesterday, it

    18 is just for the General to be able to hear it in his own

    19 language.

    20 A. I only -- I can only hear -- I do not see anything, I do

    21 not have the image. Okay, now I have it, thank you.

    22 MS. RESIDOVIC: Can I have the excerpt number 2 now,

    23 please? It is very short, one or two minutes.

    24 (Video shown)

    25 Q. Thank you. General, do you recognise this person who is

  15. 1 talking for Konjic television?

    2 A. Yes.

    3 Q. Is this Muharem Sabic, the Commander of the TO in

    4 Prozor?

    5 A. The Commander of the armed forces of Prozor.

    6 Q. Is it true that in his statement he says that he reached

    7 Konjic after having crossed 40 kilometres on foot?

    8 A. That is true.

    9 Q. Is it true that Commander Sabic says that he reported to

    10 his superiors in the district headquarters in Zenica?

    11 A. Yes, and at one point he also said that he reported to

    12 the head -- to the main headquarters.

    13 Q. Does the Commander Sabic say that among other things he

    14 came to inform the domestic and world public on what has

    15 happened?

    16 A. Yes.

    17 Q. So, General, in addition to what you said yesterday, and

    18 the excerpts with the statement of Commander Sabic, can

    19 you confirm that the headquarters of the Prozor

    20 municipality was subordinate to the district

    21 headquarters in Zenica?

    22 A. I emphasise that this is not the municipal headquarters

    23 but the headquarters of the armed forces, which received

    24 its orders from the district headquarters of the armed

    25 forces in Zenica, and from his statement it is clear

  16. 1 that he also reported to the main headquarters of the

    2 armed forces of Bosnia-Herzegovina.

    3 Q. Thank you.

    4 A. Excuse me, can I just add two more things relating to

    5 this videotape?

    6 Q. Yes, please.

    7 A. You see that he is using the terms that we have

    8 discussed a while ago, so the terms that we did not

    9 accept in the main headquarters.

    10 Q. Thank you for this clarification --

    11 A. And if you will allow me, we jointly helped him to give

    12 this information to the public about the events in

    13 Prozor, so it was Mr. Karic, Mr. Delalic and Mr. Divjak,

    14 because we believed everything that he said, but I want

    15 you to know that we had objections to his having left

    16 his units, because in the infantry as well as in the

    17 navy it is that the Commander stays to the last, even

    18 when the boat is sinking, and we ordered him to go

    19 back. He did not have the courage, and when we talked

    20 to the members of the Presidency of Prozor, we assigned

    21 a different person as Commander of the armed forces in

    22 Prozor.

    23 Q. Thank you. Yesterday, in relationship to the events in

    24 Prozor, we saw an interview of Mr. Delalic and this

    25 videotape was shown to you by the Prosecution. In this

  17. 1 connection, General, I would like to ask you the

    2 following: is it true that Commander Sabic at that time

    3 informed you that he requested help from the district

    4 headquarters in Zenica but that this assistance never

    5 managed to reach Prozor?

    6 A. I do not recall having said that. I think that here too

    7 he speaks about having asked for assistance and not

    8 receiving it.

    9 Q. Is it true that at that time you were communicating with

    10 the Commander Sefer Halilovic?

    11 A. Not directly.

    12 Q. Yes, through information?

    13 A. Not directly.

    14 Q. Okay. Than you. Is it true at that time one unit of

    15 the municipal headquarters in Konjic was ordered to go

    16 to try to help these units in Prozor?

    17 A. I would request you to tell me where you received this

    18 information.

    19 Q. I may have misunderstood you, but we had your statement

    20 that you had given to the Prosecution and it seemed to

    21 me that one unit of the municipal headquarters in Konjic

    22 had refused to carry out the order. If that is correct,

    23 please say so; if not, also say so.

    24 A. I am -- I am willing to repeat what you may have missed

    25 yesterday and if you want me to I will repeat it. So,

  18. 1 if you want me to I will repeat what I have said

    2 yesterday.

    3 Q. Not if the answer had been given to this ...

    4 A. Yes, I said that we had joint consultations between the

    5 representatives of the main headquarters and I repeat my

    6 limited rights were curbed by their coming, so in

    7 consultation between Karic, Zejnil Delalic, myself, it

    8 was ordered that the unit from Jablanica march around

    9 the front-line and reach the units of the municipal

    10 headquarters in Prozor, and that a unit from Konjic

    11 would be despatched towards Grbavica because there was

    12 information through the intelligence sources that two

    13 buses loaded with the HVO soldiers had been sent in that

    14 direction. Since the Commander of the municipal

    15 headquarters of the armed forces of Jablanica failed to

    16 carry out this task, it was proposed that he be relieved

    17 of his duty. So it is true that none of the units which

    18 had been planned to go to assist the -- assist the units

    19 of the armed forces in Prozor did not go there.

    20 Q. Thank you, your answer is much more comprehensive, and

    21 now I have a very clear picture of what happened there,

    22 so thank you.

    23 Now, General, you spoke about this yesterday,

    24 after parts of the HVO and parts of the Croatian army

    25 took control of Prozor, it was proposed that a joint

  19. 1 commission be formed to investigate the causes of this

    2 event and on our side Vehbija Karic, Arif Pasalic and

    3 you, and you remember that Slobodan Praljak, Bozo Rajic,

    4 Zovko Zvonko, local Commanders of the HVO, were

    5 representatives for the Croatian side and the HVO in

    6 Konjic?

    7 A. I reconfirm what I said yesterday. On the side of the

    8 BiH army, this is what I knew at the time, it was

    9 Mr. Pasalic and Mr. Karic and from the Croatian side

    10 Mr. Praljak, I do not know about the others. Probably

    11 what you have said now is correct.

    12 Q. Yesterday you said, when you were shown Mr. Delalic's

    13 interview, that this interview was given some ten days

    14 after the attack on Prozor and that at that time not

    15 only Zejnil Delalic but also you and Vehbija Karic gave

    16 the interview which was taped by the journalist, Zvonko

    17 Maric, is that correct?

    18 A. That is correct.

    19 Q. Is it correct that in this interview you spoke first and

    20 then Vehbija Karic and then Zejnil Delalic, and that all

    21 of you, speaking about this conflict and this attack,

    22 you spoke in a manner so that the problems would be

    23 resolved and the people could go back to their homes, is

    24 that correct?

    25 A. I do not recall the order and yesterday it was not

  20. 1 shown. You are right that our main intention was to

    2 convey the position of the main headquarters of the

    3 armed forces, that the situation needed to be put under

    4 control and that we needed to appeal to both ethnic

    5 groups that they should live together and that they

    6 should fight against the common enemy. I am convinced

    7 that through these -- that you learned a lot more about

    8 this from Mr. Arif Pasalic, who was a member of the

    9 commission which worked to overcome the conflict between

    10 the army and the HVO regarding the attack of the HVO

    11 against the unarmed civilians in Prozor.

    12 Q. Is it also true, General, that at the end of this

    13 interview you felt compelled to say what you have just

    14 stated before this Trial Chamber, which is that it is

    15 unacceptable and very damaging that certain officials of

    16 the HDZ, and you quoted Bozo Rajic by name, appear in

    17 press conferences and you were called a person who tried

    18 to be involved in the coup and everything else that you

    19 mentioned to me about the propaganda against certain

    20 persons, is that correct?

    21 A. It is correct, but propaganda was not directed only

    22 towards certain individuals, it was directed towards the

    23 state of Bosnia-Herzegovina. I go back to what I stated

    24 yesterday, that in the HDZ documents it can be gleaned

    25 that as early as late 1991 parallel authorities were

  21. 1 being built, that it is obstructing the Presidency of

    2 Bosnia-Herzegovina and in practical terms on the ground

    3 it is starting to implement the plan of taking part of

    4 Bosnia-Herzegovina and making it part of the

    5 neighbouring country.

    6 Q. Thank you, General. We will move to another area, and

    7 you have answered a number of questions to my

    8 colleagues, I will try not to repeat these questions,

    9 but if I need to use some of them in order to clarify

    10 things further, you will understand me. Yesterday,

    11 answering the Prosecutor's questions, you stated that in

    12 the main headquarters, firstly in the Republican

    13 headquarters then in the main headquarters, you held the

    14 position of the Deputy Commander, and that your

    15 immediate tasks and duties were the combat operations in

    16 Sarajevo and its immediate vicinity, is that correct?

    17 The city of Sarajevo was absolutely under -- under

    18 absolute blockade since May 2nd, 1992, is that correct?

    19 A. Maybe even later, or -- it is true that the people could

    20 leave until the 20th May. There was a convoy that left

    21 through Ilidza, but in military terms, 2nd May was very

    22 fateful for Bosnia-Herzegovina. If you have a minute,

    23 I can give you a brief explanation.

    24 Q. Let me just ask an additional question which may help

    25 this clarification. On that day, in fact, in Sarajevo,

  22. 1 the main post office was burned down and so all the

    2 phone communications with Sarajevo -- between Sarajevo

    3 and the rest of the Republic and the world were cut off,

    4 so this is -- if you want to give further elucidations,

    5 please do it in this context?

    6 A. I am going to take into account that this is relevant in

    7 the context of your Defence, but this was a critical

    8 moment, because on that day, upon return from the peace

    9 negotiations in Lisbon, the JNA arrested the legal

    10 President of Bosnia-Herzegovina. On that day, the JNA

    11 forces attempted, from the barracks, from three sides,

    12 from the barracks around the city, from Lukavica,

    13 Nedzarici and the Rajlovac, to carve up Sarajevo into

    14 three parts, and to assume full control of Sarajevo.

    15 On that day, two-thirds of the facilities were

    16 burned, destroyed and damaged in the city, two-thirds of

    17 the total destroyed facilities during the war. Among

    18 others it was the post office, which was on the river

    19 bank, 30,000 phone lines were destroyed on that

    20 occasion. The government building, the parliament

    21 building was on fire, the hospital and other

    22 institutions, and as well as residential units.

    23 However, you mentioned that we did not have weapons and

    24 things like that. The patriotism and heroism, the

    25 morale of members of the force and the police -- they

  23. 1 practically were unarmed. They had some sabotage

    2 capabilities. They prevented Sarajevo from being

    3 captured by the units of the JNA.

    4 Q. Thank you, General. Referring to what you have just

    5 said, is it then true that I understood you correctly

    6 when you spoke about it yesterday, that from that day

    7 onward the informations, orders, appointments and all

    8 other communications of Sarajevo with the other parts of

    9 the Republic was made very difficult, and with great

    10 heroism of the messengers who had to run across the

    11 airstrip these communications had to be taken to the

    12 other part of the Republic. Was my understanding

    13 correct of that?

    14 A. Yes, it was.

    15 Q. Thank you. If I say that under those conditions a

    16 document being sent by the main staff of the armed

    17 forces could reach the destination later than the actual

    18 event, that could be possible in view of the state of

    19 communications?

    20 A. That is what I said in the course of my testimony

    21 yesterday, and I can confirm it today.

    22 Q. Is it true, General, that such a siege of Sarajevo in

    23 which we lived for more than a thousand days was an

    24 enormous problem in organising the effective defence of

    25 the country?

  24. 1 A. Yes. Sarajevo was under siege for 44 months, and we

    2 compared it with pride with the defence of Stalingrad in

    3 the Second World War, and as the atmosphere has changed

    4 today and you require me to be serious, I will avoid

    5 making any jokes.

    6 Q. General, is it true that more than 300,000 people were

    7 actually surrounded in Sarajevo, and tens of thousands

    8 of able-bodied men who could have been used elsewhere,

    9 if that had been possible, that would certainly have

    10 contributed to the effectiveness of the struggle in 1992?

    11 A. I know a little bit about history, but I know that in

    12 the 20th century at least there was no larger camp than

    13 Sarajevo was in those days, at least that is how we saw

    14 it, and a portion of extremely honest and brave

    15 reporters and photographers from hundreds and hundreds

    16 of countries came to visit.

    17 This need not enter the transcript of the court,

    18 but we felt offended when European statesman, like, for

    19 example, Mitterand, or the Secretary General of the

    20 United Nations at the time said, "I see life in the

    21 street." This need not enter the transcript. So I wish

    22 to confirm your description of Sarajevo, and in such an

    23 environment it was indeed very difficult to organise

    24 life, because the decisions of the Presidency of

    25 Bosnia-Herzegovina, themselves, could not reach their

  25. 1 destinations all over Bosnia-Herzegovina.

    2 I remember that I think until July or August 1992,

    3 we did not have adequate communications with Bihac, and

    4 that the Supreme Command sent individuals, and as you

    5 said they had to run across the airport runway to get

    6 out. But let me also tell your Honours that in crossing

    7 the airport people who went for a loaf of bread -- that

    8 a total of 358 citizens of Sarajevo were killed in that

    9 process.

    10 Q. General, as a member of the main staff and deputy Chief

    11 of Staff, you certainly know that such a situation in

    12 Sarajevo required of you to do everything in your power

    13 to lift the blockade of Sarajevo?

    14 A. Yes. Not only of Sarajevo, but all the towns which were

    15 besieged at the very beginning of the war, including

    16 Mostar, Gorazde, Tuzla, and every effort was made first

    17 to preserve the town and then to try to break through

    18 the blockade. A place of honour among those is held by

    19 Srebrenica and its inhabitants and the fighters of the

    20 army of Bosnia-Herzegovina. I am talking about the year

    21 1992 and 1993.

    22 Q. Am I right in saying that the tasks that you had at that

    23 time were the reasons why the main staff formed tactical

    24 and operative groups with the mission to prepare to try

    25 to lift the blockade of Sarajevo, and that the first

  26. 1 such attempt was the one that you referred to yesterday

    2 in June, 1992, from areas extraneous to Sarajevo?

    3 A. As the army of Bosnia-Herzegovina was maturing as a firm

    4 military structure, and in the interest of forming more

    5 effective and more capable of combat military groups,

    6 various Tactical Groups were set up, or "Combat Groups",

    7 depending on the names given to them, but these were

    8 formed not only to break through the blockade of

    9 Sarajevo but also for operations in areas where the

    10 aggressor had temporarily established its military and

    11 political authority.

    12 Q. Is it true that Tactical Group 1, which was operating

    13 along the lines from Dreznica to Igman, was based in

    14 Pazaric and that its first Commander was Mr. Mustafa

    15 Polutak?

    16 A. I was not aware of that. At the time -- I saw from the

    17 documents shown to me yesterday when Mr. Zejnil Delalic

    18 was appointed to that position to replace Mr. Polutak.

    19 At the time, I did not know that.

    20 Q. During that first attempt to lift the blockade, there

    21 were battles among others in TRINOVA Brad in the areas of

    22 the operations of the Tactical Group 1, and the HVO from

    23 Kiseljak carried out its first obstruction, or rather

    24 obstructed the attempts of the forces that were trying

    25 to lift the blockade of Sarajevo, is that not so?

  27. 1 A. I apologise, but I did not say that. Let me repeat what

    2 I said yesterday. I said that somewhere in June,

    3 beginning of July, I joined directly in the broadcast of

    4 Radio Sarajevo -- I think it was still called that,

    5 later it became Radio Bosnia-Herzegovina -- and that

    6 I announced that joint forces of the Territorial Defence

    7 of Kiseljak and the HVO were acting. However, when I

    8 reached Kobiljaca, which is a hill, an elevation between

    9 700 and 800 metres above the village of Rakovica, those

    10 units were called and pushed pack. I made no reference

    11 to TRINOVA Brad, nor do I know anything more about that

    12 operation in June, anything more than I have already

    13 said.

    14 Q. Can you confirm, General, that that area from Pazaric to

    15 Wuzkobijlca is roughly 50 to 60 kilometres from Konjic?

    16 A. Kobiljaca is in a different direction from Pazaric but,

    17 roughly, both are between 50 and 60 kilometres from

    18 Konjic. If you go from Kobiljaca you follow the Neretva

    19 River valley and reach Tarcin, which is a longer route,

    20 and from Tarcin to Konjic the distance could be about 25

    21 kilometres, because the distance from Sarajevo to Konjic

    22 is 62 or 68 kilometres.

    23 Q. Thank you. General, you can certainly confirm that in

    24 connection with this first attempt that you spoke about

    25 yesterday the preparations for and attempts to lift the

  28. 1 blockade of the town from outside and attacks from the

    2 outside to facilitate the position of units fighting in

    3 Sarajevo continued in the following months and were

    4 particularly intensified in August and September, and

    5 later, as you testified yesterday, preparations were

    6 made also for a December attempt to break through the

    7 blockade of Sarajevo, is that correct?

    8 A. There were frequent attempts to break through the

    9 blockade from inside Sarajevo, which militarily was not

    10 justified, because one of the reporters, I think it was

    11 of The New York Times, wrote that a tin can cannot be

    12 opened from within. Unfortunately, when talking about

    13 the preparations for deblocking Sarajevo and the

    14 personnel armed and capable of participating in those

    15 operations, was quite different from what we thought it

    16 was in Sarajevo. Let me explain. We were convinced

    17 that those forces were between 8,000 and 10,000 strong,

    18 but the first time I got to Igman, I think this was the

    19 25th or 26th October, I learned that there were not even

    20 as many as 1,000 men there who were ready, trained and

    21 well armed for lifting the blockade of Sarajevo, which

    22 was one of the disappointments, one of the first

    23 disappointments I experienced regarding the

    24 possibilities of lifting the blockade, and when other

    25 people from the main staff arrived, this conviction was

  29. 1 further strengthened.

    2 Q. Thank you. I should now like to ask the technical

    3 services to show us a video cassette number 2, clip 1,

    4 so that I may ask the General a few more questions in

    5 connection with this testimony.

    6 MS. McHENRY: May I just ask the exhibit number or the tape

    7 number of this?

    8 MS. RESIDOVIC: I should like this excerpt to be marked and

    9 it is a cassette given to us by the Prosecution, within

    10 the group of, I think, 46 tapes.

    11 MS. McHENRY: Do you have a tape number or some way that

    12 the Prosecution can identify it?

    13 MS. RESIDOVIC: We gave the tape to the Registry and needs

    14 to be marked now.

    15 THE REGISTRAR: It will be D116/1.

    16 MS. RESIDOVIC: Can we be shown the first clip, please,

    17 from cassette number 2?

    18 THE INTERPRETER: (Translating videotape).

    19 "An interview was given by Mr. Zejnil Delalic,

    20 Commander of Tactical Group 1.

    21 "The situation in our units are very good.

    22 Within the zone of my responsibility are joint units

    23 from about ten municipalities, including BiH armed

    24 forces and HOS units. The HVO does not participate in

    25 this action. Moreover, they have been obstructing the

  30. 1 action, partially in the Kiseljak area. In the area of

    2 contact with the Chetniks, HVO units are sitting

    3 together with the Chetniks and during the operation for

    4 the capture of Ostrik they even let Chetnik tanks pass

    5 through their territory, about which we have informed

    6 the Supreme Command.

    7 "In the action of encircling this area we will

    8 take measures regardless of what party might be

    9 involved, the Chetniks or the HVO. Regarding the

    10 present situation, our forces are several times more

    11 powerful than the Chetnik ones and we are just waiting

    12 for the permission from the Supreme Command to order

    13 full attack. The Supreme Command wants to spare as many

    14 private and public buildings as possible, and to have as

    15 few civilian casualties as possible, regardless of

    16 ethnicity.

    17 We would like to say to the people of Sarajevo who

    18 have been under siege and attacks for many months that

    19 we hope to see them very soon. All the soldiers are

    20 highly motivated and they can hardly wait to hug the

    21 people from Sarajevo at Basasja or Marinvod."

    22 MS. RESIDOVIC: In this interview for Television Sarajevo,

    23 Zejnil Delalic also speaks about hopes that already then

    24 in August the blockade of Sarajevo would be lifted, does

    25 he not?

  31. 1 A. I can only say what I see and hear. Probably Zejnil

    2 will explain what he thought to the court from what we

    3 saw, yes.

    4 Q. Is it true that in that interview he refers to

    5 obstructions by the HVO in the line of contact with the

    6 HVO?

    7 A. Yes, that is what he says in this interview.

    8 Q. Is it true, General, that our main command of the armed

    9 forces as stated by Zejnil when ordering combat

    10 operations always drew attention to the need for strict

    11 respect of the law of war, and special care should be

    12 taken of civilians and civilian property?

    13 A. Yes, we see from this video that that is what he said.

    14 In the concrete situation shown in the video, that is

    15 what he said.

    16 Q. You have already said, General, that there were many

    17 attempts by smaller groups and units to engage in combat

    18 as part of the preparations for breaking through the

    19 blockade of Sarajevo, so I should like to show you

    20 another video from August 1992, so that I may put to you

    21 some additional questions. It is a clip from the same

    22 tape given to us by the Prosecution.

    23 Could we now be shown a second clip, from tape

    24 number 2?

    25 (Video played)

  32. 1 MS. RESIDOVIC: The General does not have an image. It is

    2 all right now. Thank you.

    3 Thank you. General, having seen this video, and as you have

    4 testified in court, after leaving Sarajevo in October,

    5 in the second half of October, you toured all these

    6 positions. Can you tell us whether you recognise where

    7 these operations were taking place?

    8 A. No, I cannot recognise the images. There is mention of

    9 Pazaric, of Tarcin.

    10 Q. You went in the direction of Ormanje in Pazaric, where

    11 battles were being fought at that time?

    12 A. Yes, I was in Ormanje in November 1992.

    13 Q. Is it true, General, that in the summer of 1992, as can

    14 be seen on this video, despite a ban on air flights,

    15 oppositions were subjected to air raid attacks as well?

    16 A. This only confirms that the Yugoslav People's Army

    17 participated in the aggression against

    18 Bosnia-Herzegovina.

    19 MS. RESIDOVIC: I should now like to ask, the first part

    20 marked D116/1, on which the General recognised Zejnil

    21 Delalic, and commented on the contents of that

    22 interview, to be admitted into evidence and the second

    23 part to be marked for identification, so that we may use

    24 it later in our Defence.

    25 MS. McHENRY: No objection.

  33. 1 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: It is admitted.

    2 THE REGISTRAR: The second clip will be marked D 117/1.

    3 MS. RESIDOVIC: General, since this is going to last a

    4 little longer, I shall leave that subject for later.

    5 Can you tell me, please, when you were speaking

    6 yesterday about the military strategic importance of

    7 Konjic, you said that some important military facilities

    8 were located in Konjic, and you mentioned by name the

    9 Igman ammunition factory, did you not?

    10 A. Yes.

    11 Q. Is it also true that there were other military

    12 facilities in Konjic, like Ark, our communication

    13 centre, Zlatar, the Luta barracks, Vorasnica and that

    14 Konjic was in fact a very important centre of the

    15 military industry and a military centre in

    16 Bosnia-Herzegovina, but also in Yugoslavia?

    17 A. That is correct. It was one of the reserve command

    18 positions for the Presidency of the SFRY.

    19 Q. Is it true that the Yugoslav People's Army also had very

    20 great interest in gaining control of Konjic for this

    21 reason among others?

    22 A. Yes.

    23 Q. You said yesterday that at the end of 1991 a part of the

    24 Montenegrin Corps, I forget the exact name, reached the

    25 territory of Herzegovina. Do you know that forces of

  34. 1 the former JNA captured territory around Boratz, Boratz

    2 lake?

    3 A. Yes.

    4 Q. Is it also true that from those positions Konjic was

    5 heavily shelled while you were in Konjic also?

    6 A. Yes.

    7 Q. Is it also true, General, that there was information

    8 that significant military units from Hadzici could link

    9 up with this unit of the Herzegovina or Montenegrin

    10 Corps?

    11 A. Those units, armoured mechanised units which were in

    12 Hadzici, had intended to link up with the forces that

    13 were around Sarajevo. So it is true that the intention

    14 was to realise the idea which we in the main staff felt

    15 was the objection of the Yugoslav People's Army, that is

    16 together with the paramilitary units of the SDS and

    17 volunteer units and units from the Podgorica Corps to

    18 reach the left bank of the Neretva River, and then there

    19 is another joke, but better not.

    20 Q. We will leave that for later. I look forward to hearing

    21 them. But before we have the break, maybe just one more

    22 question, General. If that idea had been put into

    23 effect, the linking up of forces from the important

    24 military centre in Hadzici with the forces we described,

    25 is it true that the situation in Sarajevo in that case

  35. 1 would have been even worse? Sarajevo would be under

    2 siege at a distance of more than 50 kilometres?

    3 A. Yes.

    4 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: That is it for this session. So we

    5 will break here and reassemble at 2.30.

    6 (11.30 am)

    7 (Short break)



















  36. 1 (2.30 pm)

    2 MR. KARABDIC: May I address the court, your Honours? My

    3 colleague, Thomas Moran is busy working on the Defence

    4 case, and will not be present this afternoon, so can he

    5 be excused, please?

    6 Secondly, my client Hazim Delic is not feeling

    7 very well and he asked the court permission to be

    8 excused tomorrow from the hearing, especially since a

    9 doctor is coming to the detention unit tomorrow and he

    10 wishes to be examined, so he is asking you to excuse him

    11 tomorrow as well.

    12 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: I accept Mr. Moran's excuse, but for the

    13 accused I think the legal officer might go into it and

    14 see whether there is any justification for that, because

    15 it is not merely his own statement about it but we

    16 should be satisfied that there is a need for him to stay

    17 away. So you might go into it.

    18 MR. KARABDIC: He needs to be seen by a doctor.

    19 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: I agree, but we have to be satisfied,

    20 not because he has said so, but the Trial Chamber should

    21 be really satisfied that he really needs a doctor.

    22 MR. OLUJIC: May I address the court? Your Honour, my

    23 colleague Michael Greaves, as the time for the expert

    24 witnesses is approaching, Mr. Economides and Mr. Gow, we

    25 need to engage in some additional preparations, so my

  37. 1 colleague Michael Greaves apologises to your Honours and

    2 would like to be excused this afternoon.

    3 MS. McMURREY: And your Honours, we also have the request

    4 that Mr. Ackerman asked to be excused this afternoon

    5 also. He has preparations outside of the Tribunal to

    6 take care of.

    7 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Thank you very much. They are all

    8 excused, except the first team which really does not

    9 bother. Thank you.

    10 Yes, you may continue Ms. Residovic.

    11 (Witness enters court)

    12 MS. RESIDOVIC: Thank you, your Honours. Good afternoon,

    13 General. Before the break we viewed some videotapes,

    14 and we saw the localities around Sarajevo where combat

    15 operations were underway. I should now like to ask the

    16 technical staff to show us another videotape, tape 2,

    17 segment 3, and this will be the last videotape that

    18 I intend to show the General during my

    19 cross-examination; after viewing the tape I will have a

    20 number of questions for you. Tape 2. This clip is on

    21 the same tape as the previous one.

    22 THE INTERPRETER: (translating videotape).

    23 "The Chetniks only occasionally shelled the

    24 positions of the Golden Lilies'. Large scale artillery

    25 and infantry battles were fought on the Hrasnik battle

  38. 1 front. There were no casualties or the wounded on the

    2 Bosnian side. Civilian targets in the Pazarici area were

    3 also shelled. However, the shelling was less heavy than

    4 in the previous days. Out of a total of nine mortar

    5 projectiles that landed in the outskirts of Pazarici,

    6 none of them caused casualties or material damage. The

    7 Golden Lilies reconnaissance teams gave information on

    8 high concentrations of Chetnik troops from Kalinovik to

    9 Rogulj, and from Krupac and Johorina to Trnovo. It is

    10 evident that the Chetniks are getting ready for a new

    11 offensive at Trnovo. As a result, the Golden Lilies are

    12 taking measures to fight back the aggressor forces.

    13 "Yesterday at 12.55 hours, the aggressor engaged

    14 in air strikes in the area of Mount Igman. It had

    15 probably been informed of the meeting with the heads of

    16 17 municipal headquarters and the MUP which began at 13

    17 o'clock sharp but at quite another place, and the

    18 aggressor obviously wanted to attack the command staff.

    19 However two Krmacas (heavy aircraft bombs), two aerial

    20 missiles, and one fragmentation missile caused no

    21 casualties. Commander Mirsad Catic's presence at the

    22 meeting was met with approval both by his colleagues and

    23 the soldiers. He had been absent for about 20 days

    24 because of a slight injury. According to Zejnil

    25 Delalic, Commander of the Tactical Group 1, the meeting

  39. 1 resulted in agreement over the criteria for the

    2 operation of checkpoints in the free municipalities.

    3 One of the criteria included the mandatory insignia of

    4 the Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina."

    5 MS. RESIDOVIC: General, this is a feature by

    6 Bajram Demic, known as the Bosnomak column, for Bosnian

    7 television for the period August, September 1992.

    8 Please, General, did you recognise on this video any of

    9 our Commanders who at that time were unit Commanders in

    10 the areas of Igman and Pazarici?

    11 A. Only two of them. Maybe if I had more time ...

    12 I recognised Zejnil Delalic and Mirsad Catic. Probably

    13 if I had a chance to halt the video I might be able to

    14 recognise some more.

    15 Q. Is it true, General, that the beginning of a meeting of

    16 Commanders from the broader area of Igman was shown,

    17 including from areas that border on it, at least

    18 according to the report of Zvonko Maric, the reporter?

    19 A. Yes, but you cannot see the beginning or the end, but

    20 the fact that Commanders are present who were

    21 responsible for the municipal staffs of the armed

    22 forces, their names are given in the feature.

    23 Q. General, before that we saw two clips, and now another

    24 one; could you tell us whether these were the normal and

    25 customary activities of a Commander participating in

  40. 1 combat operations?

    2 A. You are referring to a particular Commander or all the

    3 Commanders who participated in these activities?

    4 Q. You can answer regarding this particular Commander, but

    5 you can also give a general answer regarding Commanders

    6 in general. That is, do they give interviews, do they

    7 give orders during combat operations and have meetings

    8 with other commanders active in that area? Are these

    9 customary activities of a Commander, including Zejnil

    10 Delalic?

    11 A. Yes, but at the beginning the main staff of the

    12 Territorial Defence, later the main staff of the armed

    13 forces of Bosnia-Herzegovina, obliged subordinated

    14 commanders to request approval for granting interviews

    15 to the mass media. There were some problems. Even

    16 I too received a subpoena in 1993 when I made statements

    17 for the press without asking permission from my

    18 superior.

    19 Q. Thank you, General. I should now like to show you two

    20 documents, General. One is marked before as Defence

    21 Exhibit D77/1 and the other one is D78/1. So could

    22 these documents please be shown to the witness, so that

    23 I may put some questions to him relative to those

    24 documents?

    25 These are documents that we received from the

  41. 1 Prosecution and they have already been admitted into

    2 evidence.

    3 MS. McHENRY: Does Defence counsel have extra copies for

    4 the Prosecution?

    5 MS. RESIDOVIC: I am afraid I do not just now, because

    6 these were documents that were tendered during the

    7 hearing of General Pasalic, so I apologise that I do not

    8 have the equipment to copy these documents repeatedly.

    9 MS. McHENRY: May we then see a copy before it is shown to

    10 the witness?

    11 JUDGE JAN: The 77 exhibit is order of the President.

    12 MS. RESIDOVIC: It is a decision on the temporary

    13 organisation of the formation of units for the temporary

    14 command of South, Jug and the appointment of the command

    15 for Jug, dated 20th August 1992.

    16 MS. McHENRY: That one we have, and I would not request a

    17 copy of that. It is the other one that we apparently do

    18 not have.

    19 MS. RESIDOVIC: The second document is the appointment of

    20 the 20th August, and the first is a decision of the same

    21 date. Both documents were shown to General Pasalic and

    22 both documents have been admitted into evidence.

    23 MS. McHENRY: If you are saying 77 and 78 then we have

    24 them. If you are saying 71 -- we have no record of

    25 there being a 71.

  42. 1 JUDGE JAN: 71 is an order of the President.

    2 MS. RESIDOVIC: I think I said 77/1.

    3 Have you looked at the documents?

    4 A. Is it all right now? Yes, I have looked at both

    5 documents, thank you.

    6 Q. In connection with what I am going to ask you now, you

    7 explained in great detail and very well, at least as far

    8 as the Defence is concerned, many things, but a few

    9 details still remain outstanding, so could you please

    10 answer the following questions? Will you please look at

    11 the first document, entitled "decision"? According to

    12 this document, do you see that in the top left-hand

    13 corner it is stated that the document was issued by the

    14 Supreme Command of the armed forces in Sarajevo on 20th

    15 August, 1992?

    16 A. Yes.

    17 Q. Is this a document, as indicated in it, that was signed

    18 by the Chief of Staff of the Supreme Command and the

    19 President of the Presidency of the Republic of

    20 Bosnia-Herzegovina?

    21 A. They were signed by the President of the Presidency and

    22 the Chief of Staff of the Supreme Command.

    23 Q. In the interest of clarification, I will after this be

    24 showing you some other documents, and I just want you to

    25 know that I am not asking you to authenticate this

  43. 1 document but simply to confirm what you see before you,

    2 not to say whether this is an authentic document or

    3 not. So will you please tell me: is this a decision

    4 whereby the command for Jug is temporarily formed, based

    5 within the broader territory of Igman?

    6 A. Yes, but it is my duty to repeat that the Supreme

    7 Command is the highest level of command of the armed

    8 struggle in Bosnia-Herzegovina according to the law on

    9 national defence. I must repeat that I said that the

    10 Supreme Command was composed of the members of the

    11 Presidency, the Minister of the Interior, the Minister

    12 of National Defence, and the Chief of Staff of the main

    13 staff of the armed forces.

    14 Q. Thank you. General, will you please look at point

    15 number 2 of this document; am I interpreting it

    16 correctly if I say what it says under point number 2,

    17 that is the organisational structure of units that enter

    18 under the command of group Jug will be established by

    19 the command of group Jug? Does this point actually

    20 confirm what you said yesterday when explaining the

    21 composition of Tactical Groups, namely that the decision

    22 to form a Tactical Group or the appointment of

    23 Commanders has to contain another document which would

    24 indicate which units are being attributed to the

    25 Tactical Group, or to the temporary command of Jug. So

  44. 1 let me repeat again, does this confirm precisely what

    2 you told the court here yesterday?

    3 A. Whoever determines the composition, organisation,

    4 formation and structure of units has the duty to say

    5 so. In this first document, under point 2, we can see

    6 that the composition of the command group Jug needs to

    7 be determined by the command of the group Jug. We

    8 cannot see from this document who the command is of

    9 group Jug.

    10 Q. Thank you. Another document that I have shown you is a

    11 document also dated 20th August, 1992. It was also

    12 issued by the Supreme Command of the armed forces of

    13 Sarajevo, and it was also signed by the Chief of Staff

    14 of the Supreme Command and the President of the Republic

    15 of Bosnia-Herzegovina?

    16 A. Yes.

    17 Q. Is this a document on the appointment of the temporary

    18 command of the Jug group?

    19 A. Yes.

    20 Q. Will you please tell me whether this document, dated

    21 20th August, mentions among the other members of the

    22 temporary command of the Jug group -- under point 3, we

    23 find Zejnil Delalic appointed as the assistant to the

    24 Commander for logistics?

    25 A. That is correct.

  45. 1 Q. Does this also, General, confirm what you said

    2 yesterday, that the Commander or the officer performing

    3 a certain duty by orders of the Superior Command may, in

    4 addition to the functions he already has, be given

    5 another assignment, in addition to those he already has?

    6 A. In the theory of tactics and operative action it is

    7 possible.

    8 Q. Thank you, General.

    9 I would now like the General to be shown

    10 Prosecution Exhibit 99/10 as well as 99/7/10. I should

    11 now like the witness to be shown simultaneously the

    12 following document, which I would like to be marked as a

    13 Defence exhibit, and it is a document that the

    14 Prosecution has been provided, and I have sufficient

    15 copies for the Trial Chamber and the Prosecution.

    16 THE REGISTRAR: D79/1. Exhibit D79/1.

    17 A. I have two identical documents.

    18 MS. RESIDOVIC: General, will you please show me whether

    19 they are exactly identical. The addressee differs?

    20 A. The document is the same, but there are two addresses,

    21 yes.

    22 Q. Answering yesterday questions from the Prosecution when

    23 you were shown this document, addressed to the War

    24 Presidency of Konjic, you said, General, that this is

    25 probably an information for the War Presidency submitted

  46. 1 to it for the purpose of information, but it is a

    2 document addressed to the municipal TO staff. Do you

    3 recall saying that?

    4 A. That is what I said, and I can confirm that, but I must

    5 keep repeating, it is the municipal staff of the armed

    6 forces and not Territorial Defence, because Territorial

    7 Defence is a term that applies until the armed forces of

    8 Bosnia-Herzegovina were formed. Let me repeat, the

    9 municipal staff of the armed forces was in command of

    10 the army of Bosnia and Herzegovina, army units HVO

    11 units, police units and units, security units that were

    12 guarding facilities where such units were formed.

    13 Q. Thank you, General. I apologise once again, though I am

    14 familiar with this terminology, I know what it means not

    15 only in the military but also in law. I apologise for

    16 making the same mistake for the third or fourth time.

    17 I hope I will not do that in future.

    18 Will you please look at the second page of this

    19 document? It is indicated to whom it is addressed.

    20 Under "1" it means to the heading, and that is the

    21 municipal staff of the armed forces of Konjic, and under

    22 "4" is precisely what you said yesterday and confirmed

    23 today, "for the purpose of information of the War

    24 Presidency of Konjic municipality"; is that not so?

    25 A. Confirming what I already said under point 2 and point

  47. 1 5, it is stated that these are -- that this is

    2 information and not order, not orders. This is an order

    3 exclusively to the municipal staff of the armed forces

    4 of Konjic.

    5 Q. Yesterday, General, you explained, clearly, and in a

    6 fashion I understood, that certain competencies and

    7 assignments are given to a subordinate officer or

    8 soldier by a superior body or superior officer. A

    9 moment ago we looked at the decision on the formation of

    10 the temporary group, South, Jug, and we also saw the

    11 appointment of the members of the temporary command of

    12 Group Jug. Is it true that, in accordance with what you

    13 said, point 5 of this order actually stems from the

    14 tasks linked to assistance in executing the operation

    15 Jug on a broader area around Igman?

    16 A. Could you please be more precise and refer to the order

    17 which you are linking with the decision of the President

    18 of the Presidency on the formation of the temporary

    19 command of Group JUG?

    20 Q. It says:

    21 "Hereunder take offensive operations towards

    22 Kalinovik within the framework of the combined operation

    23 Jug and report in writing daily to the command."

    24 Does this information or order to the staff, is it

    25 linked to a period and the needs of the operation Jug,

  48. 1 which was one of the attempts to lift the blockade of

    2 Sarajevo?

    3 A. In answer to that question I could say yes, but I would

    4 like to ask you once again, or rather I would like to

    5 say, that it is not quite clear to me in this document

    6 shown to me what is implied by the Supreme Command of

    7 the armed forces of the Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina.

    8 I explained a moment ago what that means, the Supreme

    9 Command of the armed forces. I have not been shown

    10 neither then nor here now the order of the Supreme

    11 Command whereby the Commander of Tactical Group 1 is

    12 being given orders, or instructed to order certain

    13 activities to the municipal staff of the armed forces of

    14 Konjic in the way that is done.

    15 Q. Yes, I understood that yesterday and today quite well.

    16 Thank you, General. Could I please check the document

    17 addressed to the municipal staff of the armed forces?

    18 Will you please give me the number under which it has

    19 been registered, and since the witness has identified

    20 this document I should like to tender it into evidence.

    21 A. It is our number 02/349-1, dated 24th of August 1992.

    22 MS. RESIDOVIC: Thank you. Is it admitted, your Honour, as

    23 into evidence?

    24 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Yes, it is.

    25 MS. McHENRY: No objection.

  49. 1 THE REGISTRAR: It has been marked Defence Exhibit 79/1.

    2 MS. RESIDOVIC: I am sorry, my mic went off. Could the

    3 witness be shown the appointment of the 27th July, for

    4 the direction of action of Tactical Group 1, which is

    5 Prosecution Exhibit 99-7-7. Could this document be

    6 shown to the witness for a brief point of explanation?

    7 Could the witness at the same time be shown the

    8 document dated 11th July? It is 99-7-9.

    9 General, you saw these documents yesterday and you

    10 were asked several questions, and you provided very

    11 precise and detailed answers. I should just like to ask

    12 you one thing. In the document of the 27th July, 1992,

    13 which was also issued by the Supreme Staff of the armed

    14 forces and signed by the Chief of Staff of the armed

    15 forces, is it correct to say that in this document, as

    16 compared to the document of the 11th July, 1992, in

    17 addition to what you have already said, the direction of

    18 action has been specified, of action by these forces?

    19 Actually, is it correct to say that in view of the way

    20 in which you defined a Tactical Group, that is a group,

    21 a temporary formation, operating within a given area,

    22 that under point 1 it is established that the Commander

    23 of these formations of the armed forces should be in the

    24 area of Dreznica, Jablanica, Prozor, Konjic, Pazarici,

    25 Igman; therefore my simple question is whether by this

  50. 1 appointment specifying the area for which this Tactical

    2 Group is responsible?

    3 A. Yes. Yes, it does specify the direction of action. But

    4 as I said yesterday, it -- the forces which are being

    5 placed under the command of Mr. Zejnil Delalic are not

    6 specified. Having said that, it is my duty to repeat

    7 that according to the law on Defence the armed forces

    8 consisted of the army of Bosnia-Herzegovina, the

    9 Croatian Defence Council, units of the Ministry of the

    10 Interior, MUP, and units which secured industrial and

    11 other important facilities. It is not evident from this

    12 document which units, because the word "all", "all

    13 formations", is very general, and in the course of the

    14 war the law on national defence was never fully

    15 implemented with respect to the units of the armed

    16 forces.

    17 Q. Thank you, General, for repeating what you told us

    18 repeatedly yesterday in answer to our questions.

    19 I should now like to ask the witness to be shown a

    20 document that was given to us by the Prosecution. We

    21 have sufficient copies for the court, the witness and

    22 the Prosecution.

    23 THE REGISTRAR: Defence Exhibit D120/1.

    24 MS. RESIDOVIC: Have you looked at the document, General?

    25 A. Yes, I have. However, it is not sufficiently clear up

  51. 1 at the top. I cannot see what is written above

    2 "Konjic". It says "Konjic" and "to the attention of

    3 Zejnil Delalic", but I do not know what is up above. Is

    4 that "to the command"? Is this number 2 or G2? It is

    5 not clear, I do not know, on your copy.

    6 Q. Unfortunately we received a not fully legible document

    7 from the Prosecution, but I think this could be either

    8 G2 -- I do not know these military registration

    9 procedures. However, I am not going to ask you about

    10 that. Again, you have a very typical document of the

    11 armed forces command which was given by the Chief of

    12 Staff of the armed forces of the Supreme Command?

    13 A. I concur that this is so; however, I reserve the right

    14 --

    15 JUDGE JAN: Has this paragraph 1 been correctly translated,

    16 because in English it does not seem to make any sense:

    17 "The Commander of the group of objects D/O turned

    18 to the Supreme Headquarters of the armed forces of the

    19 BH Republic with a request to secure the object D/O."

    20 What does that mean, really, "concerning the

    21 serious indications by the irregular units that the

    22 object will be taken by force".

    23 Has it been correctly translated?

    24 MS. RESIDOVIC: I will read the document and I would like

    25 to request that it be translated now, because I am not

  52. 1 an expert. In the text of this document it says that

    2 the Commander of the groups of the objects D/O has

    3 addressed the headquarters of the Supreme Command of the

    4 armed forces in order to secure as soon as possible the

    5 -- and it will -- this is not being interpreted, so we

    6 will have to have it slowed down, please.

    7 THE INTERPRETER: Can the counsel please reread the last

    8 paragraph?

    9 MS. RESIDOVIC: "That all objects D/O are secured and at

    10 all cost any damage to them be prevented by receipt --

    11 upon receipt of this telegraph please immediately

    12 contact the Commander of the facility", and the

    13 Commander's name is mentioned.

    14 My question, General, is whether this is another

    15 example of how the appropriate Superior Command can

    16 issue a very specific order attached to its subordinate

    17 Commander?

    18 A. This is one of the principles of command, in which the

    19 superior Commander gives very specific tasks to the

    20 subordinate Commander.

    21 Q. Thank you. General, do you know Mr. Mustafa Polutak?

    22 A. Yes.

    23 Q. General, before I ask you the next question, since the

    24 witness has authenticated that document, I would like to

    25 know how it was -- it was marked and whether it can be

  53. 1 tendered as the Defence exhibit.

    2 THE REGISTRAR: The document was marked as D120/1.

    3 MS. McHENRY: No objection.

    4 MS. RESIDOVIC: Your Honours, is this document now that

    5 I am trying to have tendered, is it being accepted, and

    6 I will supply the appropriate translation of it in the

    7 English language? Is the document accepted?

    8 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Yes, I indicated it was accepted.

    9 MS. RESIDOVIC: Thank you. My apologies, I have not heard

    10 you.

    11 General, do you know that last year Mustafa

    12 Polutak was the Commander of the 4th Corps of the army of

    13 Bosnia-Herzegovina?

    14 A. Yes.

    15 Q. Previously you have answered to my question that from

    16 the appointment of Zejnil Delalic you could see that

    17 Mr. Mustafa Polutak was the Commander of Tactical Group

    18 1?

    19 A. Yes.

    20 Q. Now I would like to have the witness shown a chart

    21 compiled by the 4th Corp. The Prosecution received this

    22 chart before, and there are enough copies for the Trial

    23 Chamber and the Prosecution.

    24 THE REGISTRAR: It is document number D121/1.

    25 MS. RESIDOVIC: General, as you see, this is a chart of the

  54. 1 operative groups of the army of Bosnia-Herzegovina, and

    2 it was compiled by the 4th Army Corps and it was signed

    3 by Mustafa Polutak. Do you see that from the document?

    4 A. From this document it is not clear what period of time

    5 this comprises, and second, this is a document referring

    6 to the mobilisation for the Tactical Group 1. In other

    7 words, it says what should have been done, and it is not

    8 clear whether it was done. Here it only talks about

    9 personnel but not to the technical equipment and

    10 material which should also be given to the personnel.

    11 The mobilisation implies a mobilisation of personnel,

    12 and the technical equipment and material and livestock.

    13 Q. Thank you, General. This is precisely the kind of

    14 clarification we wanted to hear from you. I only wanted

    15 you to confirm whether I had read the signature

    16 correctly, that it is the command of the 4th Army Corps

    17 with its stamp?

    18 A. As far as I could gather, you received this document

    19 from the Commander of the 4th Corps during the

    20 investigation, and from it it is not clear whether this

    21 refers to the period of April/December 1992. So this is

    22 just a view of the Commander of the 4th Corp. I do not

    23 know what at that time the Commander of the Corps,

    24 Mr. Pasalic, told you in response because at the time of

    25 the formation of the Corps, when in this area of Konjic,

  55. 1 Jablanica, Prozor, Igman, the Tactical Groups were

    2 operating, and if he gave you his opinion of this chart,

    3 and I do not know whether his opinion carries more

    4 weight than mine.

    5 Q. Thank you, General. You just clarified this chart,

    6 which is entitled, "mobilisation for TG1" and I thank

    7 you for that. If we need to authenticate this document

    8 the Defence will do so through a witness who issued this

    9 document. But I want to thank you.

    10 I would like to now propose to admit this chart

    11 for mobilisation of Tactical Group 1 as the Defence

    12 exhibit.

    13 MS. McHENRY: If I may be heard, your Honour?

    14 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Yes, did you hear what counsel said?

    15 MS. McHENRY: Yes, your Honour, and the Prosecution

    16 objects. The Prosecution would first note that it has,

    17 as far as I know, never been informed that this would be

    18 an exhibit but instead it was attached to a legal motion

    19 that Ms. Residovic filed towards the beginning of the

    20 case, and the second, and in fact the major objection

    21 would be in fact that what has already been pointed out

    22 by the witness, that it appears that this is

    23 Mr. Polutak's chart that he made up for purposes of

    24 giving to Ms. Residovic since this investigation began;

    25 there is absolutely no indication as to what period of

  56. 1 time it is from, and in particular where the source of

    2 the information is from. It is clear that it is

    3 absolutely not a contemporaneous document, since the

    4 4th Corps was not formed until November. So we think

    5 this is absolutely unreliable. No, if Defence counsel

    6 wishes to call Commander Polutak we would certainly be

    7 in favour of that and Mr. Polutak can explain the

    8 sources, the basis of his chart and it can be an

    9 attachment to his testimony. We would have absolutely

    10 no objection to that. But during the investigation to

    11 have someone make up a chart and then try to get it in

    12 just based on someone saying, "yes, this is done by the

    13 4th Corps" is absolutely improper and in fact it would be

    14 very misleading.

    15 MS. RESIDOVIC: I am not going to give a long response to

    16 the colleague. I would just like to mark it for

    17 identification and another witness can come who can

    18 confirm its authentication; but for the last two or

    19 three days we have been seeing documents that are very

    20 loosely introduced, never authenticated, and documents

    21 are not announced as evidence and we reject any

    22 objection in the sense that we cannot use the documents

    23 that I want to tender for identification. So I would

    24 like it admitted, please.

    25 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: It is not you liking it being

  57. 1 admitted. It is not because you like it that it is

    2 being admitted. I have not seen any aspect of your

    3 argument which refers first to its relevance, second to

    4 its authenticity and thirdly its reliability. On no

    5 grounds could it be admitted at all. If you still

    6 insist you will have your time when the Defence will

    7 give evidence, whoever was responsible for it. Maybe

    8 you ought to show its relevance to whatever claims you

    9 are making. So it cannot be admitted at all, even for

    10 identification. Thank you. So you can proceed.

    11 MS. RESIDOVIC: Thank you, your Honours. I understand

    12 that, but I had to in addition to the justified

    13 arguments that you have mentioned, I needed to object to

    14 the other arguments that were -- whose place before this

    15 Trial Chamber was not proper.

    16 General, yesterday, in response to the questions

    17 of my colleague Michael Greaves, on the map of

    18 Bosnia-Herzegovina you pointed to the road and other

    19 facilities that were located between the coast and

    20 Konjic. I would like the usher's assistance so that we

    21 can place the map again on the easel so that the General

    22 may point to certain things if I ask him such

    23 questions. The map was marked as Defence Exhibit 74,

    24 D74/1.

    25 Is it true, General, that in this strategic road

  58. 1 from the Sarajevo through Konjic and Mostar to the coast

    2 is also Mount Igman -- Ivan?

    3 A. Ivan Sedlo is sitting on the compass of three rivers

    4 which is the -- the ones that flow to the Adriatic, to

    5 the Black Sea and to I think even to the Aegean Sea.

    6 I think that it is about 800 metres above sea level, and

    7 I think that there are also peaks at 900 metres, at

    8 1400, and so on.

    9 Q. Thank you. General, you just gave a number of very

    10 precise points on Ivan Sedlo. Is the Ivan Sedlo the

    11 most convenient and the easiest pass from Bosnia to

    12 Herzegovina?

    13 A. If we were in yesterday's mood I would tell another

    14 joke. Yes, it is true.

    15 Q. Thank you. Is it also true to use yesterday's

    16 vernacular that who does not manage to cross the Ivan

    17 path, he has to cross 10 other passes to reach the same

    18 spot in Herzegovina?

    19 A. We soldiers training the conscripts --

    20 THE INTERPRETER: I am sorry, the interpreter did not hear

    21 the witness. Could he repeat that?

    22 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: The interpreter would like you to

    23 repeat what you said.

    24 A. When training young soldiers and officers in the area of

    25 Ivan Sedlo we used to say that these were thermopylae

  59. 1 for Sarajevo because it is at Ivan Sedlo that one can

    2 win or lose the battle for Sarajevo. And for your

    3 benefit, your Honours, may I make a very brief analysis

    4 of the meaning of Ivan Sedlo? Yesterday and today the

    5 question was raised what it would mean if communications

    6 were interrupted along any part of the Neretva River

    7 valley. In the main staff of the armed forces, we were

    8 constantly fearful lest the aggressor -- at first the

    9 JNA, which was later transformed into the army of the

    10 Republika Srpska, could, using armoured mechanised

    11 units and helicopter units, carry out an assault,

    12 attack, and as a result put Sarajevo in a completely

    13 stalemate position. I apologise for being a bit long in

    14 my explanation, but Ivan Sedlo or the Ivan pass was a

    15 matter where we fought for the survival of Sarajevo; and

    16 the loss of Sarajevo would have meant the loss of the

    17 idea of Bosnia Herzegovina as a multi-ethnic state.

    18 Q. Thank you, General. Is it true that at the foot of Ivan

    19 Pass on Mount Ivan is a locality called Bradina?

    20 A. Yes. And, outside the scope of your question, I was

    21 unpleasantly surprised when I saw it for the first time

    22 during the war.

    23 Q. The way it was terribly destroyed, is that what you

    24 wanted to say? I agree with you.

    25 A. Yes.

  60. 1 Q. Bradina is on the main highway M17, is it not?

    2 A. That is what it is called today, M17. I do not know

    3 what it was called before.

    4 Q. I should now like us, General, to go on to a different

    5 subject. In order to more fully support your statements

    6 yesterday, regarding the method in which the armed

    7 forces of Bosnia-Herzegovina were organised from the

    8 very outset, I should like you to be shown official

    9 gazette, issue number 1, of the Republic of

    10 Bosnia-Herzegovina, which is Defence Exhibit D93/1. You

    11 said already yesterday that on the 8th April the

    12 Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina, at a meeting of the

    13 Presidency, took the decision to abolish the former

    14 Republican staff of Territorial Defence and to form the

    15 staff of Territorial Defence of the Republic of

    16 Bosnia-Herzegovina. Do you see in this official

    17 gazette, under number 2, this decree actually

    18 establishing what you spoke about in detail yesterday?

    19 A. That is correct. Only yesterday I made a slip of the

    20 tongue. I said it was the 6th and I know precisely that

    21 it was on the 6th that the European Union admitted

    22 Bosnia-Herzegovina, or rather recognised

    23 Bosnia-Herzegovina as an independent state. So I made a

    24 small mistake with the date. It was on the 8th April

    25 that the new staff of Territorial Defence of

  61. 1 Bosnia-Herzegovina was formed.

    2 Q. Is it true, General, that due to certain attempts to

    3 block the work of the Presidency by members of the SDS,

    4 by this decree it is stipulated that the Ministry for

    5 National Defence of the Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina,

    6 through the TO staff of Bosnia-Herzegovina, should

    7 control and command formations of the Territorial

    8 Defence?

    9 A. Yes.

    10 Q. Is it true that at the time the Minister of National

    11 Defence of the Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina was

    12 Mr. Jerko Doko, who you referred to yesterday, saying

    13 himself he had participated in the drafting of this

    14 legislation?

    15 A. Yes.

    16 Q. Thank you. I should now like the General to be shown

    17 another document which he referred to yesterday as

    18 well. The first page of this document has been

    19 translated into English, and as Judge Jan already warned

    20 me yesterday, Dr. Calic did comment on this document

    21 during her expert testimony --

    22 A. May I ask a question, please?

    23 Q. Yes.

    24 A. Why do you not ask me why my name is not mentioned in

    25 Article 4 of this decree?

  62. 1 MS. RESIDOVIC: We have another document, all of it is in

    2 Bosnian, but the first page is in English.

    3 JUDGE JAN: Because the military coup to which you were

    4 allegedly a party did not succeed, therefore your name

    5 is not in Article 4.

    6 MS. McHENRY: Is there a copy for the Prosecution?

    7 A. That was later, your Honours.

    8 MS. RESIDOVIC: In official gazette number 2, you come

    9 across the name of General Divjak as deputy Commander of

    10 the Republican staff of Territorial Defence, but this

    11 time I have not brought it to offer it into evidence.

    12 The General himself stated this.

    13 THE REGISTRAR: It is Defence Exhibit D122/1.

    14 MS. RESIDOVIC: General, will you please just look at this

    15 document briefly, because we will not be discussing it

    16 in substance? Will you please tell me whether these are

    17 instructions issued on 10th April by the Minister of

    18 National Defence in accordance with his jurisdiction

    19 regarding the subordination of district and municipal

    20 staffs to the Republican staff, as you testified to in

    21 detail in this Trial Chamber yesterday?

    22 A. It is.

    23 Q. Thank you. As the General has identified the

    24 instructions about which he spoke in answer to questions

    25 from the Prosecution, I have no additional questions to

  63. 1 put, but I should like this decree to be admitted into

    2 evidence, please. It is exhibit number D122/1.

    3 A. May I just make two remarks?

    4 Q. You may.

    5 A. The instructions envisage that the staff of Territorial

    6 Defence of Bosnian Herzegovina is an executive body of

    7 the Ministry of National Defence. Accordingly, the

    8 subordinate staffs of Territorial Defence at municipal

    9 level are also military territorial bodies of a tactical

    10 level, which are responsible for the organisation,

    11 preparation, material equipment, control and command of

    12 units of Territorial Defence in co-operation with the

    13 secretariats of national defence and public security

    14 stations in the territory of the municipalities. So

    15 these are subordinated to staffs of districts, or rather

    16 to the Territorial Defence of the city of Sarajevo.

    17 MS. RESIDOVIC: Thank you. So now we have an

    18 interpretation of the contents of this decree, so

    19 I tender this decree into evidence. Is it admitted?

    20 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Yes, it is. It should be.

    21 MS. RESIDOVIC: Thank you. So let me repeat, General, what

    22 you said yesterday. By this decree the Territorial

    23 Defence has been established as an armed force of the

    24 Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina, and these instructions

    25 regulate, until the adoption of an appropriate law, the

  64. 1 system of control and command. Is that not so, or

    2 rather the system of subordination and control and

    3 command?

    4 A. Yes, but at that time and through these temporary

    5 instructions no reference -- the term is not "armed

    6 forces" but "territorial defence". It is only with the

    7 adoption of the law on national defence that the armed

    8 forces were formed, within which, as I have said several

    9 times, were the army, the HVO, the police, security

    10 units, because here we see reference to co-operation

    11 between the Territorial Defence and the police, and that

    12 was how it was regulated for the first two or three

    13 months. But when the law was passed on the structure of

    14 the armed forces, it clearly defined the competencies of

    15 the Supreme Command. I have already said who they were,

    16 and who was in command of the armed forces.

    17 Q. Thank you.

    18 MS. McHENRY: May I just interrupt for one clarification?

    19 Am I correct that the only portion of this exhibit which

    20 is being introduced into evidence is the portion that is

    21 translated into English? If so, the Prosecution has no

    22 objection. If there are some other portions that are in

    23 evidence that have not been translated then the

    24 Prosecution would need to see that before it determines

    25 whether or not it objects or not.

  65. 1 MS. RESIDOVIC: The witness has conveyed the substance of

    2 the document. The Defence takes upon itself the

    3 obligation to have the document translated in extensio,

    4 because we were unable to have it translated by now. It

    5 is partly included in the documents of expert witness

    6 Mr. Calic, and should there be any objections the

    7 Prosecutor may put them then. But we will have the

    8 document, the full translation of the document ready in

    9 two or three days. I think it is important for the

    10 court and for the Prosecution to have documents on the

    11 structure of our army from the very beginning.

    12 As, General, you just mentioned the law on the

    13 armed forces and Defence, and we have submitted parts of

    14 that law -- it was published in the official gazette

    15 number 4 of the 20th May -- can you tell me whether it

    16 is correct that that law sets the deadlines within which

    17 the Defence Minister needs to pass legislation,

    18 regulations regarding the structure of the army? Those

    19 are the deadlines that you referred to which, depending

    20 on the circumstances, were respected. In some areas

    21 things were done much more quickly, expeditiously,

    22 whereas in others they were never implemented, for

    23 example the HVO and others never placed themselves under

    24 the command of the armed forces. Are we referring to

    25 the same law?

  66. 1 A. Yes, and having spoken about that at length I do not

    2 think anything more is necessary, except for me to say

    3 yes.

    4 Q. General, can we now go on to another issue? You said

    5 yesterday that the blocking of any important strategic

    6 facility necessarily causes problems for the defence and

    7 that it is the responsibility of the authorities to

    8 prevent any such blockades and the physical capture of

    9 areas, routes and other important strategic points.

    10 Have I correctly interpreted what you said yesterday?

    11 A. I am not quite sure I understood you well when you said

    12 that the bodies of -- that the authorities were

    13 responsible.

    14 Q. For example, the TO commands for that region?

    15 A. If you are referring to the military authorities yes,

    16 but there are also civilian and military authorities.

    17 Therefore in the area of responsibility of a particular

    18 unit the Commander is responsible also for the

    19 protection of facilities, personnel and everything else

    20 that constitutes life in the area of responsibility of

    21 that particular Commander. In the final analysis he is

    22 responsible, together with the civilian authorities, for

    23 ensuring logistic support, which implies not only

    24 quartermaster supplies, but also sanitary, technical and

    25 other supplies.

  67. 1 Q. General, you have explained with precision what your

    2 duties and responsibilities were in the main staff of

    3 the armed forces of our country, but I am asking you,

    4 because I assume that you heard or knew about this, and

    5 that is, did you know that the route which is now known

    6 as M17, that is the main highway from Sarajevo to the

    7 seaside, was blocked already in April at Bradina. Is

    8 that correct?

    9 A. At the time I did not have any such information.

    10 Q. I should like to ask you, General, to look at a

    11 document, and again of course I do not expect you to

    12 authenticate it, but in view of its relevance for this

    13 case I should like to hear your opinion and to ask you

    14 some questions about it.

    15 This document was submitted to the Prosecution

    16 this morning. The Defence had intended to show it to

    17 one of the Prosecution witnesses, but since the witness

    18 has given up -- has decided not to call that witness --

    19 however, since the testimonies of General Pasalic and

    20 General Divjak have put us in a position to change our

    21 idea of cross-examination we had this document

    22 translated and we submitted copies to the Prosecution

    23 this morning. We have sufficient number of copies now

    24 for the Prosecution and the Trial Chamber.

    25 MS. McHENRY: Your Honour, the Prosecution absolutely

  68. 1 objects to the introduction of any documents that have

    2 not been timely provided to the Prosecution, as required

    3 by the Rules of this Tribunal. We have had this problem

    4 before, and the Rules are very clear. The Defence in

    5 this case chose to invoke very broad discovery. The

    6 Prosecution has scrupulously and in good faith provided

    7 timely disclosure to the Defence of numerous documents.

    8 This has used up a very large amount of resources of the

    9 Prosecution and it has been to the great advantage of

    10 the Defence. Prior to this witness testifying,

    11 I discussed with Ms. Residovic when she received these

    12 documents and they have had them for several weeks to

    13 several months.

    14 The Prosecution has never been given these

    15 documents before. It is not the case, for instance,

    16 that we were given them and thought they were going to

    17 be used for another witness. It is the case that we

    18 have never been given these documents. The Prosecution

    19 believes it would not be just if these proceedings were

    20 allowed to become trial by ambush. In particular the

    21 Prosecution may have chosen to do additional

    22 investigation to authenticate certain documents to

    23 explore their meaning or to call certain witnesses

    24 regarding those documents. But especially given that

    25 the Prosecution is about to close its case, those

  69. 1 possibilities are entirely foreclosed by the fact that

    2 we are just receiving the documents today, even though

    3 the Defence has had them for several weeks or months,

    4 and, your Honour, we absolutely believe it would not be

    5 -- it would be unjust both to the truth-finding process

    6 and to the Prosecution if the Defence is continually

    7 allowed just to introduce new documents and just say,

    8 "now we think we are going to use them". The Rules are

    9 very clear. The Defence have taken great advantage of

    10 them, and the Prosecution is being ambushed here.

    11 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: If I understand Ms. Residovic

    12 properly, the introduction of these documents was

    13 necessitated by the withdrawal of one of your

    14 witnesses. That was why she is now trying to introduce

    15 this document. Otherwise she would have put it in

    16 through that witness.

    17 MS. McHENRY: Your Honour, if it is the case that we have

    18 been given the documents before because she thought she

    19 would introduce them through another witness we would

    20 not object.

    21 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Your own witness, not her witness.

    22 MS. McHENRY: That is correct.

    23 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: You have withdrawn that witness.

    24 MS. McHENRY: That is right, but we have never seen these

    25 documents before. If the Defence believed that they

  70. 1 were going to use these documents for any witness they

    2 were required to give us those documents and so the fact

    3 that it is now that a particular witness is not going to

    4 be called is not a reason to all of a sudden surprise

    5 us. Certainly as I -- maybe I was not clear. If it is

    6 the case that we had previously been given these

    7 documents with respect to a certain witness, we would

    8 not --

    9 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: That is not what you mean. You say

    10 they should have been tendered to you since it was

    11 proposed to be used, so they should have served you with

    12 them before now.

    13 MS. McHENRY: That is correct.

    14 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Whether this future witness was coming

    15 or not, you ought to have had it, this is your

    16 argument.

    17 MS. McHENRY: That is right. This morning -- this has

    18 happened before. We have not always objected. I got a

    19 stack of these documents today. The Prosecution could

    20 have done and would have done more information had it

    21 had these documents previously. Given that the Defence

    22 has taken great advantage of their rights we think it

    23 unfair for them not to comply with their clear

    24 obligations under the rules.

    25 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Yes, Ms. Residovic, have you any reply

  71. 1 to the objection under Rule 67?

    2 MS. RESIDOVIC: Yes, your Honours. I think there is no

    3 need for me to stress how the Defence has been behaving

    4 from the beginning. Just for these two witnesses the

    5 Defence has produced exhibits that were earlier

    6 disclosed to the Prosecution. Never did the Defence act

    7 in bad faith. The two documents that we gave to the

    8 Prosecution this morning were received from our

    9 investigators after the Prosecution gave up calling this

    10 witness, and that is why we did not think we should use

    11 that document in the Defence. Our obligations under

    12 Rule 67 are to disclose the documents to the Prosecution

    13 if we have them in our possession; and if we intend to

    14 use them as Defence exhibits. Only during the testimony

    15 of the last two witnesses did the Defence decide that it

    16 could use this exhibit as very -- highly relevant

    17 evidence and for that reason and, in accordance with

    18 Rule 89, had the document translated and as soon as it

    19 was translated we handed a copy to the Prosecution,

    20 intending to use it.

    21 If the witnesses had not been questioned in this

    22 way and if the court had decided to comment on them

    23 through witnesses who are highly qualified, then the

    24 Defence would not have had to introduce these documents

    25 as their exhibit.

  72. 1 I think that Delalic's Defence cannot be

    2 reproached, because it has disclosed at least 100

    3 documents to the Prosecution as soon as they were found

    4 by their investigators.

    5 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Ms. McHenry, what is the prejudice you

    6 would suffer from this, because I have looked at it?

    7 What is the prejudice you suffer, apart from the fact

    8 that perhaps you have not been properly notified?

    9 MS. McHENRY: Well, your Honours, since I am not sure

    10 exactly the relevance, even, of this document and why

    11 Ms. Residovic is doing it, I cannot say for sure.

    12 I can say with respect to the documents that I received

    13 today, which was more than two and which Ms. Residovic

    14 informs me she has had between two weeks and two months,

    15 there are some which I think are arguably relevant; in

    16 fact, arguably I might say -- I will not say -- there

    17 are some that I think that are prejudicial; this one,

    18 because I fail at this present time to see the relevance

    19 of it, I cannot claim any particular --

    20 JUDGE JAN: This is a case of a split command; if the HVO

    21 and the BiH army are one and part of the same army, why

    22 should two Commanders be signing it with separate

    23 receipts. This is the relevance I find, at least on the

    24 face of it, the Commander of the HVO and the Commander

    25 of the BiH. If there is one army -- this is the

  73. 1 question I asked the last General, General Pasalic, why

    2 two Commanders sign.

    3 MS. McHENRY: I think that is a fair question to ask the

    4 witness. It is the case the Prosecution have sought to

    5 introduce documents signed by HVO, BiH and Mr. Delalic.

    6 JUDGE JAN: Is it one army or two armies?

    7 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: That is a different matter. One can

    8 decide that later.

    9 JUDGE JAN: We are deciding the command responsibility of

    10 Delalic. Is it the case of one army or two armies?

    11 MS. McHENRY: Your Honour, certainly I believe that the

    12 Prosecution position would be with respect to HVO there

    13 may have sometimes been a difference between --

    14 JUDGE JAN: General Pasalic did give an answer, but this is

    15 part of the evidence of the two Commanders.

    16 MS. McHENRY: Yes, your Honour.

    17 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Actually the composition of the

    18 Tactical Group has been clearly given to us. It needed

    19 to be from one, it can be from a number of Commanders

    20 forming the group. So we do not have to -- my interest

    21 here is whether you -- anything really bothers you about

    22 this.

    23 MS. McHENRY: At the present time, your Honour, as

    24 I stated, because we are not sure of the relevance of

    25 this it is impossible to say. After I see what

  74. 1 Ms. Residovic says is the relevance of it, I may well

    2 believe that it is prejudicial.

    3 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Well, I do not know. I think we could

    4 admit it for all that it is worth.

    5 MS. RESIDOVIC: Your Honours, would this be a convenient

    6 moment for a break, or shall I continue with the

    7 cross-examination?

    8 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: No, you need not continue. We just

    9 admit it for the purpose ... We will rise now and we

    10 will reassemble at 4.30.

    11 (4.07 pm)

    12 (Short break)

    13 (4.30 pm)

    14 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: I think we had better seize the

    15 opportunity to clear Mr. Karabdic's application for his

    16 client to be examined. I think we might find out

    17 whether any previous appointment has been made. I do

    18 not think there is any.

    19 MR. KARABDIC: Your Honours, the physician makes regular

    20 visits on Thursday in the detention unit to examine

    21 those detainees who report, who ask for request,

    22 examination and Hazim Delic wanted to ask, request an

    23 examination for tomorrow since for a while he has not

    24 been feeling that well. However, sometimes the

    25 physician does not show up on Thursdays and we do not

  75. 1 know, we will know in the morning whether the physician

    2 will show up; in the case he is there, he would like to

    3 stay behind and get examined, if not he would attend the

    4 trial.

    5 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Do you not think a better arrangement

    6 is to make a proper appointment with a doctor so that

    7 you will be sure when a doctor comes in and examines

    8 him?

    9 MR. KARABDIC: It would mean a lot to us if the detention

    10 unit would ensure that the physician would come. We

    11 would much prefer that, absolutely we would prefer that.

    12 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Presuming that he comes tomorrow, you

    13 are not sure when he will be examined or at what time

    14 does he get to the detention centre? When does he get

    15 there?

    16 MR. KARABDIC: Around 10 or 11 o'clock in the morning.

    17 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: You do not know the nature of any

    18 capacity he might suffer, merely because he is coming at

    19 that time. You do not even know the particulars of the

    20 problems. I think the legal officer will make every

    21 arrangement to ensure that he gets a doctor and then we

    22 will know exactly. But for tomorrow I am not sure

    23 exactly whether we can say he need not come. I do not

    24 know, that is a little tricky, but not on the basis of

    25 illness because there is nothing certifying that he is

  76. 1 so ill not to be here. I think the legal officer will

    2 make the proper arrangement and ensure that he is

    3 examined by a doctor and then we will know all about

    4 it. So, thank you very much.

    5 MR. KARABDIC: I apologise. I would just like to add

    6 something. I know, and the detention unit is also

    7 familiar with this, my client was very ill on Saturday

    8 and a physician came on Saturday and he was given

    9 medical assistance, so he felt better over the weekend

    10 and showed up for the court hearing on Monday. But he

    11 still feels weak and he would like further examination,

    12 so that he could maybe get further therapy and he would

    13 know what it was, what the condition was, so it could be

    14 handled.

    15 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: I think we will make sure we take care

    16 of his health problems.

    17 May we now have the witness in?

    18 (Witness enters court)

    19 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: General, you are still under oath. You

    20 may well proceed.

    21 MS. RESIDOVIC: Thank you.

    22 General, you looked at a document, please can you

    23 tell me whether in the top left corner of this document

    24 it says, "Bosnia-Herzegovina, Konjic municipality and

    25 municipal headquarters of the TO", and the date, 27th

  77. 1 May, 1992?

    2 A. Yes. Yes.

    3 Q. Thank you. Was the document signed by the Captain,

    4 Dinko Zebic, Commander of the HVO, and Commander Omer

    5 Boric, captain class?

    6 A. Yes.

    7 Q. There are stamps of the HVO, the municipal headquarters

    8 of Konjic, and the TO headquarters of Konjic?

    9 A. Yes.

    10 Q. Is it true that by contents this is an order that,

    11 taking into account the combat operations, a mobile unit

    12 should be formed of 200 people in order to carry out the

    13 task, as spelt out in this order?

    14 A. Yes.

    15 Q. Is it true, General, that paragraph 3 in Podorasac,

    16 Sunji, Zukici, Kus, Zovko Zvonko is made a Commander and

    17 is responsible for carrying out this combat operation in

    18 the given area?

    19 A. Yes.

    20 Q. General, is this the usual way for the appropriate

    21 Commanders to issue orders in this period?

    22 A. I see this kind of order for the first time. I do not

    23 know how it was carried out, because it is very

    24 imprecise. In point 1 it refers to the formation of a

    25 mobile unit, strength at least 200 soldiers, composed of

  78. 1 two companies. Two companies is about between 150 and

    2 180 men. It is not clear what additional and what

    3 logistics units were included, and also it is not clear

    4 who supports them logistically, which is of paramount

    5 importance. From this order I do not see that this task

    6 has been set out for them. I do not know what area, who

    7 the neighbours are, who supports, and so on.

    8 Another very important thing here, this should be

    9 an order. There is a difference between an order and

    10 the ordering. Both are combat documents; however, an

    11 order regulates relationships within the structure, and

    12 it can be an order or a decree of the appointment, and

    13 then an ordering regulates the carrying out of combat

    14 operations. As you can see, these are two different

    15 terms which exclude one another, to a degree. It is not

    16 clear what units of the HVO and the army within these

    17 mobile unit. It also says that the resources for these

    18 units should be used from the Orsat detachment and that

    19 the sabotage unit -- from HVO. So these are two

    20 companies. Who are these units from the territorial --

    21 company from the HVO or from the Konjic TO?

    22 The Commanders of Kosvonko was not given a precise

    23 task and again, I emphasise that he did not receive the

    24 area, and for this task and who supports him and in what

    25 time-frame he should carry out his task.

  79. 1 Q. Is it true, General, that this order relies on former

    2 orders and to the combat operations that were all --

    3 were in the process, so this would be a supplementary

    4 order, ordering that the already existing units should

    5 be added more personnel, such as you explained in the

    6 paragraph 1 of this order?

    7 A. I cannot confirm whether the previously conducted

    8 operations were based on this document. I cannot

    9 confirm it without seeing other documents. So I cannot

    10 comment on that particular part of it.

    11 Q. General, since this is the initial period of fighting,

    12 do you think that at that time the orders were maybe

    13 less precise than usual in comparison to other more

    14 precise orders in a later period?

    15 A. The first part, yes, correct; but it always depended on

    16 the ability of the person who was commanding.

    17 Q. And again referring to this document, is it clear from

    18 the signature and the stamp that these were two separate

    19 structures and not an unified command?

    20 A. Since it is referred to, the municipal headquarters of

    21 the armed forces, at the top of the document, and as it

    22 was signed, it can be implied that the law on defence

    23 was applied, that the TO and later the army, the HVO,

    24 the police, were all part of a unified armed forces of

    25 Bosnia-Herzegovina. I do not know what the situation

  80. 1 was on the ground.

    2 Q. Thank you. I would like the document to be, please,

    3 returned to the Registrar and the document was marked as

    4 D123/1, correct?

    5 A. I would just like to add --

    6 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, the document was marked as D123/1.

    7 A. Just a comment to add to what we just discussed a while

    8 ago. The instructions does not order, it is not a

    9 directive. An instruction determines how a certain

    10 document should be implemented in practice.

    11 MS. RESIDOVIC: Thank you. Your Honours, I would just like

    12 a confirmation that this document was admitted, given

    13 the established relevance.

    14 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: The established relevance depends on

    15 your evidence. It was merely admitted as evidence. So

    16 in the future if you have anything linking it with your

    17 case, you can add anything.

    18 MS. RESIDOVIC: Very well, thank you very much.

    19 General, this morning you answered my question

    20 that in the initial phase of the fighting one of the

    21 many intentions was to protect the population, to

    22 prevent further incursions and the occupation of the

    23 temporarily occupied territories, and, wherever

    24 possible, operations to liberate the temporarily

    25 occupied territories were also put in place. I would

  81. 1 like you to look at a document that the Defence received

    2 from the Prosecution.

    3 THE REGISTRAR: Defence Exhibit D124/1.

    4 MS. RESIDOVIC: General, please have you looked at the

    5 document?

    6 A. Yes, I have.

    7 Q. Is it correct that this is a document of the TO

    8 headquarters of 12th June, 1992, directed to the TO

    9 headquarters Commander in Konjic, and signed by the main

    10 headquarters Commander?

    11 A. Yes.

    12 Q. Is it correct that this is one of the possible documents

    13 and orders which is consistent with similar orders in

    14 which the main headquarters is directing certain units

    15 to engage in combat operations in order to liberate the

    16 temporarily occupied territories?

    17 A. Yes.

    18 Q. Thank you. I will now like to have the General shown

    19 the next document. We have enough copies for both the

    20 Prosecution and the Trial Chamber, and this document was

    21 received from the Prosecution.

    22 MS. McHENRY: May I just clarify for the record, was the

    23 last document admitted into evidence, and state that the

    24 Prosecution has no objection to its admission.

    25 MS. RESIDOVIC: Thank you. Then the document D124/1 has

  82. 1 been admitted, correct?

    2 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Well, Ms. McHenry, is it this one you

    3 are referring to, or 123?

    4 MS. McHENRY: 124, which is the document dated June 12th.

    5 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Yes. Yes, June 12th. Well it ... Yes,

    6 it is admitted. But actually what is it meant for?

    7 What is your purpose of tendering it?

    8 MS. RESIDOVIC: Your Honours, the document, the next

    9 document also refers to the combat operation in the area

    10 of the municipality, and of certain competencies in this

    11 time period, and this is the time-frame for which my

    12 client has been indicted.

    13 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Is this matter in dispute at any

    14 stage? Is the fact that there was a combat or fighting

    15 in this area in dispute at any stage?

    16 MS. RESIDOVIC: Yes, it is an issue, given the position of

    17 the Prosecution about the command responsibility of my

    18 client, of the time-frame of this command responsibility

    19 and of the duties that my client carried out in that

    20 period, because that is what he is charged with, his

    21 knowledge about it or possibility of knowledge about it.

    22 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Thank you. We admit 124 and 125, they

    23 are both admitted.

    24 MS. RESIDOVIC: Thank you. So the next document was

    25 125/1. Have I understood well that both the documents

  83. 1 have been admitted?

    2 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Yes, I have said so.

    3 MS. RESIDOVIC: Thank you. In connection with this latter

    4 document, I have no further questions for the witness.

    5 Could the documents be returned to the Registry?

    6 I should just like to ask you, General, whether

    7 later on when, in October, you reached Konjic, did you

    8 learn that in July, on Mount Prenj in the direction of

    9 Boratz lake, there were combat operations in accordance

    10 with the document that has just been admitted into

    11 evidence?

    12 A. No. I was neither shown the document nor was I informed

    13 about the details as to what was happening in July 1992

    14 in the area that you have just referred to.

    15 Q. Did you know, General, that in July the Croatian Defence

    16 Council, just before the beginning of the operation,

    17 refused to participate, and that that was the first time

    18 there was a serious split between the staff of the armed

    19 forces and the Croatian Defence Council?

    20 A. I do not know about the month of July, but I know what

    21 was happening at the end of October and the beginning of

    22 November 1992 in connection with the participation of

    23 the HVO forces in the operations in the direction of

    24 Glavaticevo and further on to the village of Luke.

    25 Q. Actually you were a witness that at the time you were in

  84. 1 Konjic another operation was being prepared to liberate

    2 the area in relation of the Borci, Glavaticevo and

    3 Nevesinje, in which the assistant Commander, Dragan

    4 Andric, was directly and operationally involved?

    5 A. Yes, I said that earlier on.

    6 Q. Yes, I just wanted to make sure that we were referring

    7 to the same event.

    8 In view of the problems between the HVO and the

    9 municipal staff of the armed forces, I should like to

    10 show you, General, another document, which was submitted

    11 to the Prosecution this morning, due to the reasons that

    12 I explained a while ago.

    13 THE REGISTRAR: Defence document D126/1.

    14 MS. RESIDOVIC: I believe the Prosecutor has this document

    15 as a document that was provided as we were informed by

    16 the government of Bosnia-Herzegovina.

    17 Is it true, General, that this is a document of

    18 the HVO, the municipal headquarters in Konjic, dated

    19 August 10th, 1992, which was signed by the Commander,

    20 Dinko Zebic, and which bears the stamp of the Croatian

    21 Defence Council, municipal headquarters, Konjic?

    22 A. It is all written as you say in the document before me.

    23 Q. Is it true that the document is addressed to the main

    24 staff of the armed forces, Sarajevo, and the municipal

    25 staff of the BiH army in Konjic, as a reply to a

  85. 1 document of the main staff of the armed forces in

    2 Sarajevo, dated 20th July, 1992?

    3 A. That is what it says in the document that I have been

    4 shown.

    5 Q. General, is it correct --

    6 MS. McHENRY: If it would help any and speed things along,

    7 rather than have the General read out what is here, the

    8 Prosecution does not object to this document coming into

    9 evidence, if the Defence believes that it is relevant.

    10 MS. RESIDOVIC: Thank you for your assistance. The Defence

    11 should like to tender this exhibit into evidence because

    12 it is a relevant document in view of the time and the

    13 relations between the army and HVO. Of course it is

    14 relevant for the command responsibility in that period

    15 of time. Is it admitted?

    16 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Yes, it is admitted.

    17 MS. RESIDOVIC: Thank you.

    18 General, I have another set of questions on a

    19 topic that I should like to review with you. You have

    20 clearly and unequivocally described for the court your

    21 responsibilities and you said that while you were

    22 performing your duties in the main staff in Sarajevo you

    23 had no knowledge about the events in Konjic. You also

    24 clearly stated that you were not aware of any prisons

    25 having been formed in the liberated territory of

  86. 1 Bosnia-Herzegovina?

    2 A. Yes.

    3 Q. However, as the Commander of the district staff of

    4 Territorial Defence before the war, you can surely

    5 confirm that within the framework of the Territorial

    6 Defence before the war there were no prisons, were

    7 there?

    8 A. No.

    9 Q. So my information is not correct, or maybe I did not put

    10 it correctly. Would it be right to say that staffs of

    11 Territorial Defence, for needs of taking into custody

    12 any people, used existing prisons, be they prisons of

    13 the Yugoslav People's Army, or prisons within the

    14 Ministry of Justice, or the Ministry of the Interior?

    15 A. Within the framework of the Territorial Defence there

    16 were no prisons, as I said.

    17 Q. Thank you. You also answered several questions in

    18 connection with the Celebici barracks and you said that

    19 before the war it was built as a military facility, did

    20 you not?

    21 A. I did.

    22 Q. Its purpose before the war was to serve as a warehouse

    23 for the Yugoslav People's Army, was it not?

    24 A. Yes.

    25 Q. You also confirmed that after you came to Konjic, and

  87. 1 that means somewhere after the second half of October

    2 until the second half of November, you visited the

    3 Celebici barracks only once to look at the logistics

    4 warehouse there?

    5 A. I was more precise. I said that this was somewhere

    6 between the 27th and the 29th October. So not in the

    7 second half of November.

    8 Q. Thank you, General. I cannot remember each and every

    9 detail. But is it also true that you testified before

    10 this court that you learned about the prison later on,

    11 within the framework of overall information that you

    12 received about all conditions in Konjic, which you

    13 received from the competent staff of the Territorial

    14 Defence in Konjic?

    15 A. I repeat that on the 18th of October, not later, not

    16 after visiting the military facility, the warehouse,

    17 that exactly on that date I was informed on the overall

    18 situation in the territory, in the area of Konjic -- and

    19 if necessary I can repeat -- on the deployment of enemy

    20 units, about operations, about other things like that,

    21 and among other things when reference was made to

    22 logistics, mention was made of the hospitals I visited

    23 and mention was made of the existence of two military

    24 prisons, as well of the main problems relating to the

    25 defence of Konjic, and I have already testified to

  88. 1 that.

    2 And only once, and I said between the 27th and the

    3 29th, did I visit the military warehouse to see for

    4 myself how much quartermasters' supply and other

    5 equipment and supplies existed in that warehouse.

    6 Q. Is it true, General, that in explaining one of your

    7 answers to a question from the Prosecution you added a

    8 remark regarding the treatment of prisoners, that you

    9 heard from the fighters whereby you are actually

    10 confirming that in Konjic it was not generally known

    11 that the prisoners were allegedly being mistreated?

    12 MS. McHENRY: I object to that as a mischaracterisation of

    13 what the General said yesterday.

    14 MS. RESIDOVIC: The General is here, so maybe he can

    15 explain. May he be allowed to explain?

    16 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Yes, he will be able to answer your

    17 question.

    18 MS. RESIDOVIC: Thank you.

    19 A. In view of the fact that I moved around freely in town

    20 -- of course seeking shelter from shells and snipers --

    21 and that I was free to move along the front-lines of the

    22 defence of Konjic, and that I addressed the public over

    23 the radio waves of Konjic at least twice, speaking to the

    24 fighters and the citizens of Konjic, and those Serbs who

    25 did not join the armed forces at first, of the JNA, and

  89. 1 later the transformed army of the Republika Srpska,

    2 I had occasion for people to tell me such things as you

    3 have just mentioned, and that is that there may have

    4 been talk of mistreatment in military prisons.

    5 And I said yesterday that individual soldiers had

    6 certain critical remarks to the effect that military

    7 prisoners, that prisoners of war in prisons were being

    8 fed better than fighters on the front-lines.

    9 Q. Thank you. May I just confirm once again that you also

    10 said that somewhere between the 29th October and the 2nd

    11 November you noticed representatives of the

    12 International Committee of the Red Cross visiting the

    13 prison and that you were told on that occasion that the

    14 International Red Cross Committee had no objections

    15 regarding the conditions in the prison?

    16 A. That is partly correct, because I repeat what I said

    17 yesterday: in front of the building where Mr. Zejnil

    18 Delalic was living, I came across a Red Cross vehicle,

    19 which was about to leave. It was moving, and I was then

    20 told by Mr. Zejnil Delalic that he had -- that they had

    21 toured the military prison and that they had told him

    22 that there was not anything that needed any particular

    23 changes with regard to the military prisoners.

    24 Q. Thank you, General. A moment ago, in answer to another

    25 question about your freedom of movement, you said that

  90. 1 this freedom was limited by shelling and sniper fire.

    2 Can you confirm that at the time you were in Konjic,

    3 Konjic was quite badly destroyed and it was shelled?

    4 A. Yes. When I was there one of the facilities that was

    5 operational was shelled and burned down. It was a sipad

    6 facility for -- where woodwork was varnished, and I know

    7 that it could have had very serious consequences. With

    8 every respect for these people who intervened, that is

    9 the Fire Brigade men, and the citizens, the spreading of

    10 the fire was prevented.

    11 Q. Is it also true, General, that at that time there were

    12 shortages in Konjic -- of course, less so than in

    13 Sarajevo -- that the supplies were rationed, as was

    14 water and electricity, is that true?

    15 A. It is.

    16 Q. Is it true that at that time a large number of refugees

    17 from eastern Bosnia and eastern Herzegovina were in

    18 Konjic or passing through Konjic?

    19 A. Not so much at that time. Later there were many more.

    20 I think that their number was much higher in 1993. But

    21 already then in Jablanica there were between 10,000 and

    22 12,000 refugees from the area of Herzegovina, Kalinovik,

    23 Trebinje, Bileca and the people who were already on the

    24 move from the Drina River valley. It was still free

    25 territory at that time between Gorazde, Grebak, Trnovo

  91. 1 and Pazaric.

    2 Q. As far as you are aware, can you say that the competent

    3 authorities in Konjic, the War Presidency, the staff of

    4 the armed forces and the others, tried as best they

    5 could to ensure elementary conditions for the life of

    6 the population and the refugees?

    7 A. With reference to the period when I stayed in Konjic,

    8 I can say "yes".

    9 Q. In view of the relevance of the document, I should like

    10 to ask the General to be shown three documents of the

    11 War Presidency which we gave to the Prosecutor this

    12 morning and which our investigator, preparing the

    13 Defence case, provided us with ten days or so ago, and

    14 since, as I have already explained, we understood from

    15 the last two testimonies that we may talk about the

    16 relevance of a document before deciding whether to

    17 submit them and so these are three documents which the

    18 Defence received in the last ten days or so, which were

    19 translated yesterday, and given to the Prosecution this

    20 morning.

    21 Could the witness look at these documents, and

    22 I ask the Trial Chamber to permit the witness to do

    23 that.

    24 Could each of these documents be marked

    25 individually? I have sufficient number of copies for

  92. 1 the court and the Prosecution.

    2 THE REGISTRAR: The order of the 17th May will be marked

    3 D127/1.

    4 MS. McHENRY: Your Honour, specifically with respect to

    5 that order the Prosecution would be objecting on the

    6 grounds previously discussed, that we did not have

    7 timely disclosure. I will also point out that it is

    8 perfectly acceptable, and the Defence counsel has on

    9 many occasions given us documents in their original

    10 language. I also, my understanding from Ms. Residovic

    11 is she got this document approximately two weeks ago and

    12 she does not know when her investigator got it. It

    13 could have been some time in the past.

    14 Specifically, with respect to how we may be

    15 prejudiced by documents such as this, this is one where

    16 I believe we are prejudiced. Among other things, I will

    17 state that this document indicates that at least on 17th

    18 May there was an attempt to have soldiers located in the

    19 Celebici barracks, and in fact the Prosecution's

    20 information is that there was an attempt to do this

    21 really throughout the existence of the Celebici prison,

    22 but those in control of the prison would not permit it

    23 to happen. So I think this is a misleading document.

    24 We have been prejudiced not having it before. So

    25 I would object on those grounds.

  93. 1 I would also point out to your Honours that this

    2 document has been given to translation, and there are

    3 several important translation errors in it, which also

    4 -- for instance, the document, the translation supplied

    5 by the Defence, indicates that it is signed by Mr. Ramic

    6 and in fact I believe it is clear from the original and

    7 from a correct translation that it is signed by someone

    8 else for him.

    9 I also believe that the "cc"s on the original

    10 document make it clear that, for instance, it is sent to

    11 the Commander of the Konjic TO municipal headquarters,

    12 who is someone different at that time than Mr. Ramic.

    13 But certainly the translation errors -- right before we

    14 came into court, your Honours, I got a corrected

    15 translation, and I cannot offer that to the court,

    16 unfortunately, because it was just before we came in,

    17 I did not have a chance to make copy, but even besides a

    18 corrected translation, we believe that there is no

    19 reason this document was not given to us previously. We

    20 have been prejudiced by its introduction, it is

    21 unreliable and in fact misleading. So we would

    22 strenuously object. Thank you.

    23 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Ms. Residovic, have you any reaction

    24 to the observations made about the reliability of the

    25 contents?

  94. 1 MS. RESIDOVIC: Your Honours, we would merely like to ask

    2 some questions in connection with this document. As

    3 regards the translation, I said that we only just

    4 received it, and when the court makes it possible for

    5 the document to be shown to the witness on the grounds

    6 of relevance, and we had it quickly translated over the

    7 weekend, and we are ready to have the errors corrected,

    8 that is as far as the document of the 17th May is

    9 concerned. When I gave the documents, I marked those of

    10 the War Presidency. However, this document is of the

    11 municipal headquarters of the defence of the city of

    12 Konjic municipality, and since this document has been

    13 marked, could I have the possibility to say a few words

    14 about it?

    15 It is true that it is signed for Captain Esad

    16 Ramic and it was signed by Ivica Azinovic. That is

    17 correct.

    18 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: I think it is a little unsafe to accept

    19 it for the purposes of any evidence at this stage,

    20 because of these irregularities. You may still have an

    21 opportunity -- except we mark it "rejected", we are not

    22 doing so now. You might have an opportunity some time

    23 when perhaps it is better corrected to allow it.

    24 Definitely now it would not be proper to admit it.

    25 MS. RESIDOVIC: Yes, your Honours. Do I understand

  95. 1 correctly that it has been marked and that we can

    2 discuss it when we prove its relevance and

    3 authenticity?

    4 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: You may, when you move to do that, and

    5 any of these arguments that are on its face. At this

    6 stage it would be most unsafe to do that.

    7 MS. RESIDOVIC: Thank you. I should now like to ask these

    8 three documents to be marked, documents of the War

    9 Presidency, and I have explained their relevance. We

    10 received them some 10 days ago, had them translated.

    11 I think that the translation is correct, because in view

    12 of the importance of these documents we gave them

    13 priority treatment and special supervision.

    14 THE REGISTRAR: The decision of the 3rd of June is marked

    15 D128/1. The order of the 3rd June is marked D129/1.

    16 MR. OLUJIC: Your Honours, with your leave I have just been

    17 informed by my client if we could have a break? He is

    18 asking for a couple of minutes because he needs to leave

    19 the room.

    20 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: It is no normal break time, I am sure

    21 he is aware of that. This is when we normally break.

    22 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Yes, Ms. Residovic, you may continue

    23 tomorrow morning, since you have not still finished. Do

    24 you want to continue tomorrow morning?

    25 JUDGE JAN: How much longer will you take tomorrow morning.

  96. 1 MS. RESIDOVIC: About half an hour, not more.

    2 JUDGE JAN: That will fit in with your next witness,

    3 I understand.

    4 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: I have information that Mr. Delic would

    5 be examined by a doctor at the detention centre tomorrow

    6 morning, so it is possible to make the arrangements for

    7 him. Arrangements have been made for him to be

    8 examined.

    9 MR. KARABDIC: Thank you, sir.

    10 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: So he will be excused for the morning

    11 session.

    12 MS. McMURREY: Your Honours, I know -- if you would hear me

    13 a moment, I believe because we have such a crowded

    14 docket this week, trying to get through all the

    15 witnesses in the time we have allotted, I have maybe 15

    16 minutes' worth of questions, Madam Residovic has stated

    17 she may be finishing soon. I would ask the court, in

    18 the interest of this witness, who has been here for days

    19 and has other plans, I believe, that maybe we could

    20 continue on to 6.00 or 6.15, and try to finish with this

    21 witness today.

    22 JUDGE JAN: The staff, they need to rest in the translation

    23 booth and the television room.

    24 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: We are actually dealing with a very

    25 experienced General, very co-operative, and a gentlemen.

  97. 1 He understands our problems.

    2 MS. McMURREY: I agree with all those points about General

    3 Divjak.

    4 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Thank you very much. We will now close

    5 for today and continue tomorrow morning at 10.00 am.

    6 (5.35 pm)

    7 (Adjourned until 10.00 am

    8 on Thursday 30th October 1997)