1 Tuesday, 31 March, 1998
2 [Open session]
3 --- Upon commencing at 10.05 a.m. in case IT-96-21-T
4 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Good morning, ladies
5 and gentlemen. Can we have the appearances?
6 MR. NIEMANN: My name is Niemann. I appear
7 with my colleagues, Ms. McHenry, Mr. Turone and Ms. Udo
8 for the Prosecution.
9 MS. RESIDOVIC: Good morning, your Honour,
10 I am Edina Residovic, Defence counsel for Mr. Zejnil
11 Delalic. Mr. Delalic is also defended by my colleague,
12 Eugene O'Sullivan, professor from Canada.
13 MR. OLUJIC: Good morning, your Honours, I am
14 Zeljko Olujic, representing Mr. Mucic today, along with
15 Mr. Michael Greaves, attorney from the United Kingdom.
16 MR. KARABDIC: Good morning, your Honours.
17 I am Salih Karabdic, Defence attorney for Mr. Hazim
18 Delic, along with Mr. Tom Moran, attorney from Houston, Texas.
19 MS. McMURREY: Good morning, your Honours,
20 I apologise for being late. I am Cynthia McMurrey and,
21 along with my colleague Nancy Boler, we represent Esad
23 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Could we have the
24 witness, please?
25 (The witness entered court)
1 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: May I remind the
2 witness, you are still on your oath.
3 THE REGISTRAR: I remind you, Sir, that you
4 are still under oath.
5 ILJAS HADZIBEGOVIC (continued)
6 Examined by Ms. Residovic (continued).
7 Q. Thank you, your Honour.
8 Professor, have you had some rest?
9 A. Yes, a little bit.
10 MS. RESIDOVIC: Professor, before we continue
11 today, I am going to just draw your attention to --
12 please wait for the interpretation of my answer through
13 those earphones and then answer my question, thank
15 Yesterday, you testified before this Trial
16 Chamber that the call of Mr. Karadzic in the Bosnian
17 Assembly in October 1991 amounted to a call to arms or
18 an invitation to start a war and you said that you
19 witnessed that and you were a witness to these events.
20 May I now ask the technical booth to play the
21 tape number 2, the excerpt 2. I would like, after
22 that, to ask you a question, professor.
23 (Videotape played)
24 THE INTERPRETER: (Translating videotape).
25 This is what unarmed people are, not armed, the ones
1 over there, this is impossible.
2 (Videotape stopped)
3 MS. RESIDOVIC: Professor, could you tell us
4 what city this is?
5 A. This is the city of Sarajevo.
6 Q. What location in Sarajevo was this?
7 A. This is the Liberation Square in front of the
8 Bosnian Assembly and this is 6 April 1992, the day when
9 the independence of Bosnia-Herzegovina was proclaimed.
10 The citizens of Sarajevo gathered in the square that
11 day, demonstrating for peace. They were asking -- they
12 demanded peace and the shots you heard, these shots
13 were fired by snipers who were placed in surrounding
14 buildings among others on the Holiday Inn.
15 Q. Thank you, no further details are needed. Is
16 this incident considered the beginning of the war?
17 A. This event is not the beginning of the war.
18 The war had started earlier, on 6 April in fact the
19 army had already taken positions all around Bosnia,
20 before that time, along with the extremist paramilitary
21 formations from Serbia and, including the Seselj people
22 and the Arkan people. They were already on the ground
23 and they were taking over control of towns.
24 From 27 March until 30 April, a whole string
25 of cities in Posavina, which are the municipalities
1 along the Sava River and the Drina River were taken
2 over and the ethnic cleansing was already under way.
3 Q. Thank you, professor. You said this
4 yesterday but I am reminding you of it today. You were
5 a participant of this mass popular demand for peace; is
6 that correct?
7 A. Yes.
8 MS. RESIDOVIC: Your Honours, I would like to
9 tender this excerpt, which was used by the witness and
10 which he personally recognised and in which --
11 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: I do not see its
12 relevance at all. It has nothing to do with the
13 charges for which your client has been charged. It has
14 nothing to do with it. It is background which
15 everybody admits.
16 MS. RESIDOVIC: Your Honours --
17 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: You are just wasting
18 the time of everyone.
19 MS. RESIDOVIC: Obviously, you have the right
20 to deny me any single question I ask. My client has
21 been charged as a commander of a Tactical Group and the
22 reason why this Tactical Group was established was
23 Sarajevo. So I would like to request you to listen to
24 me carefully and I am not submitting anything that is
25 not relevant to my client's Defence.
1 I think that, without understanding the
2 situation in Sarajevo at the time, I believe that it
3 would be impossible to understand why Tactical Groups
4 were established, and this is in response to the
5 evidence presented by the Prosecution.
6 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: If it is part of your
7 case, go ahead. I do not see the relevance -- you can
8 prove it.
9 JUDGE JAN: We can take judicial notice of
10 the fact that Sarajevo was under siege -- under
11 Rule 92, we can take judicial notice of the fact that
12 Sarajevo was under siege by the Serb forces, whatever
13 they were. Under Rule 92 we can take judicial notice
14 of that. You do not have to get this tape on the
15 record. In fact, we have seen this tape before also --
16 I think while you were cross-examining some of the
17 Prosecution witnesses, we saw this portion.
18 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Whether Sarajevo was
19 under siege is not disputed, is it? The fact that
20 Sarajevo was under siege has never been disputed --
21 nobody is arguing that.
22 MS. RESIDOVIC: Your Honours, I had tried to
23 offer this into evidence through a Defence witness, and
24 then I was told that I was to do this through the
25 Prosecution witness and I was told to do it during my
1 own case, so I am trying to speed up these proceedings
2 as much as I can, but, hangar 6, for instance, is very
3 important for this case, but it is not that important
4 for my client in the sense that he was never there. We
5 must discuss matters that my client was involved in.
6 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: I am not opposing it if
7 you think it is part of your case, go ahead.
8 MR. NIEMANN: Your Honours, might I indicate
9 something -- the fact that there was an armed conflict
10 is not disputed -- it has never been disputed. This is
11 only evidence of that.
12 I should say that I do not know what is going
13 to happen with these tapes but one of them goes for two
14 hours. Are we going to sit and watch it for two
16 MS. RESIDOVIC: Your Honours, this is why
17 I am showing two minutes so that we would not be
18 looking at two hours, so I would like only to introduce
19 this excerpt and maybe another two more. This is all
20 that I am trying to do, but I am going to tender the
21 entire tape in the same manner that Dr. Calic's tapes
22 were produced.
23 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: The facts are not in
24 dispute -- it is unnecessary to bring it into issue.
25 Nobody is arguing it.
1 JUDGE JAN: There are at least two
2 Resolutions of the Security Council talking about the
3 siege of Sarajevo, one of 15 May and the other of
4 30 May. We can take judicial notice of the fact that
5 Sarajevo was under siege and efforts were being made to
6 lift that siege. We do not need an expert witness to
7 tell us that. These facts are well known. The
8 Resolution of the Security Council is something of
9 which we can take judicial notice.
10 MS. RESIDOVIC: Your Honours, I feel very
11 awkward to start discussing this with you, but, in the
12 Tadic case, the Trial Chamber watched six or seven
13 hours of the BBC programmes on Yugoslavia. Maybe it
14 was not as necessary for Omarska, but I am just trying
15 to do the relevant things for my client. I cannot
16 repeat whether he was responsible for Jablanica, Prozor
17 or Igman. This is what we have to demonstrate through
18 our evidence, whether he was involved and what he was
19 doing. We are trying to show why he was part of this
20 Tactical Group -- because of what was going on in
21 Sarajevo. I only need five minutes of videotape rather
22 than two hours like my colleague is saying, so I am
23 trying to present it as rationally as possible, and not
24 make it just a part of general information on what was
25 going on in Bosnia. So, I do apologise for this
1 discussion with you, but I would urge you to allow me
2 to present it.
3 MR. NIEMANN: Your Honours, I object if the
4 tape -- the whole tape is sought to be tendered on the
5 basis of a four-minute excerpt being played, because
6 the whole of the tape -- if Madam Residovic is trying
7 to get in a whole tape just on the basis of a
8 two-minute excerpt, I object to that.
9 I also wish to indicate that I sat through
10 the Tadic case and at no stage do I remember six hours
11 of videotape being played by the Prosecution.
12 MS. RESIDOVIC: Your Honours, I was trying to
13 tender this particular excerpt into evidence rather
14 than a two-hour tape. I am only going to introduce
15 three excerpts from this tape into evidence.
16 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Frankly, any portion
17 about the siege of Sarajevo does not prejudice your
18 case. These are accepted facts and undisputed. I do
19 not see why you make so much fuss about it. Nobody is
20 arguing that Sarajevo was under siege. Nobody is
21 arguing that there was an effort to lift the siege.
22 Why do that?
23 MS. RESIDOVIC: Your Honours, there is
24 opposing views that there were no Tactical Groups, so
25 this is just by way of introducing our defence of where
1 our client was and what he was doing. This is what the
2 Prosecution had started with, the context --
3 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: The videotape will not
4 demonstrate whether or not there was a Tactical Group.
5 It cannot show that. It will not be evidence of that.
6 That is a different situation.
7 JUDGE JAN: By alleging that Mr. Delalic was
8 commander of the Tactical Group, the Prosecution
9 concedes there were Tactical Groups.
10 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: If all you are
11 interested in is to give a story -- perhaps this is
12 what you are trying to do here, you are trying to tell
13 a story -- the story is interesting if it is relevant
14 to what you are saying and if it is disputed. There is
15 no dispute here. I have avoided this argument not to
16 waste time -- if you want to get it in, that is okay,
17 but it is not relevant at all -- it has nothing to do
18 with the issue. It is only disputed issues that ought
19 to be proven. If they are not disputed, they have been
20 accepted, so what is the point?
21 MS. RESIDOVIC: Your Honours, allow me to say
22 just one thing. I would like you to respect our right
23 to defend provided in Article 21 of the Statute. You
24 have admitted a number of tapes that are not relevant
25 for this issue, and which have nothing to do with the
1 Tactical Groups or their existence. You said that you
2 will evaluate its probative value, but if the
3 Prosecution tendered it, you have at least accepted to
4 rule on it. I also would like you to apply the same
5 criteria to what we are trying to tender.
6 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: I do not like the
7 imputation that one is favouring one party to the
8 other. There is no such thing. If you really
9 understand the case you are building, you would have
10 understood what I have said. I have said this is not
11 disputed, and there is no point telling the story.
12 But, if you still think that your story is palatable to
13 your own case, yes, go ahead, but I do not see the
14 basis for it.
15 MS. RESIDOVIC: May I ask you whether the
16 excerpt that we just played is being admitted?
17 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: As giving the story of
18 certain people making protests in Sarajevo.
19 MS. RESIDOVIC: As the reason why the
20 military authorities adopted the decision to change,
21 that is, as part of an attempt to come to a solution of
23 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Go ahead. Carry on
24 with your case. Go ahead with your case, present it as
25 best you can.
1 MS. RESIDOVIC: Will you please tell me the
2 number of this exhibit?
3 THE REGISTRAR: This is Exhibit D142/1.
4 MS. RESIDOVIC: Professor, in your report and
5 the documents attached, you mentioned the concept of
6 "ethnic cleansing". What did that actually mean in
8 A. "Ethnic cleansing" entered a political
9 programme during the Second World War; that is, the
10 expression itself. In that programme, it implied
11 cleansing of territories, which were considered to be
12 of Serb interest, of all non-Serb inhabitants. The
13 same term appeared in this war, except that it is an
14 euphemism for killing and brutal expulsions of non-Serb
15 populations from certain territories.
16 MS. RESIDOVIC: I would now like to ask the
17 technicians to show the map H1/10, for me to be able to
18 put the next question to the witness.
19 Can we see the map, please -- H1/10?
20 Professor, could you explain this map for us?
21 A. This is a map of Bosnia-Herzegovina drawn by
22 a professor at the faculty of law in Sarajevo -- a
23 prestigious expert on the basis of his analysis of two
24 documents of the Serbian and Croatian extremist
25 leadership, that is of the SDS and the HDZ. You saw
1 the map that I showed yesterday about the ethnic
2 composition of Bosnia. It was coloured in different
3 colours. On this map you see the red and white areas
4 with no other colours. Then you see the blue colour,
5 which indicates territories captured by Herceg-Bosna --
6 the Croatian Community of Herceg-Bosna.
7 The red and white ones -- areas were captured
8 by Serbs and Serb autonomous regions were formed,
9 whereas the yellow colour indicates areas where the
10 interests of both political groupings overlap, whereas
11 the white enclaves are still territories shared by
13 Q. Thank you, professor.
14 A. If we compare these two maps, we see that, in
15 order to obtain one colour, other colours had to be
17 Q. What did that really mean in those wartime
19 A. It meant the creation of ethnically pure
21 MS. RESIDOVIC: Your Honours, after this
22 question, I have only two clips to show from the
23 videotape which I have offered, but, before that, let
24 me put a question to the professor.
25 At the beginning of May, was Sarajevo
1 completely cut off from the rest of the world?
2 A. Yes.
3 MS. RESIDOVIC: I should now like to ask the
4 technical booth to show us clips 5, 6 and 7, and you
5 will see from the questions that they are directly
6 related to the defence of my client. May I ask the
7 technical booth to show clips 5, 6 and 7, please? Can
8 we see the video clips, please?
9 Before they start, will you please tell me
10 whether the central and main post office in Sarajevo
11 was destroyed at a certain point in time?
12 A. Yes, on 2 May, the main post office was set
13 on fire and about 50 to 60 telephone lines were cut.
14 Q. Did this result in the city of Sarajevo being
15 totally cut off from the other parts of the republic
16 and the world?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Were other important cultural establishments,
19 archives, et cetera, also destroyed?
20 A. Yes, a little later, in August, the National
21 and University Library was set on fire; then the
22 Oriental Institute was burned down, with its archives
23 of original 250,000 documents and its library as well
24 as other institutions, especially the Presidency was
25 exposed to shelling, the 20-storey building of the
1 Government, the university departments, hospitals --
2 all these institutions were exposed to heavy shelling
3 from the surrounding hills.
4 Q. Tell me, after those events, how could a
5 message be sent -- a message or an order -- from
7 A. With the help of a few radio amateurs that
8 existed, all of our citizens who had our children
9 elsewhere sent messages through radio amateurs, if we
10 were lucky to find them.
11 MS. RESIDOVIC: Could we now be shown these
12 video clips 5, 6 and 7, please.
13 (Videotapes played)
14 Q. Can you recognise this building?
15 A. It is the main post office in Sarajevo.
16 (Videotape continues)
17 A. One of the most beautiful buildings in
19 (Videotape continues)
20 Q. Professor, can you recognise this building,
22 A. This is the National and University Library
23 in Sarajevo.
24 (Videotape continues)
25 A. Hundreds of thousands of books went up in
1 flames. It is a building constructed at the end of the
2 19th century, in pseudo-Moorish style.
3 Q. Thank you, we do not need those details,
5 (Videotape continues)
6 MS. RESIDOVIC: I should now like to tender
7 these three clips into evidence -- that is all that we
8 ask from this videotape and the grounds are the
9 position of my client regarding the receipt of certain
10 orders and this videotape is indicative of the
11 conditions that existed in respect of communications
12 between Sarajevo and other parts of the republic. So,
13 may I please tender these three clips into evidence?
14 MR. NIEMANN: I object on the grounds of
16 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: They are not really
17 relevant, but, if you want to tender them, let us admit
19 MS. RESIDOVIC: Thank you. Will you please
20 tell me the numbers of the exhibits that have been
21 tendered into evidence just now?
22 THE REGISTRAR: They will be part of
23 Exhibit D142/1 and will be specifically marked as
24 segments 2, 3 and 4.
25 MS. RESIDOVIC: Professor, let us now go on
1 to another subject. Can you tell me, from the
2 beginning of the war until the end of 1992, what was
3 the policy of the Croatian Democratic Unity, that is,
4 one of the winning Parties in Bosnia-Herzegovina?
5 A. The Croatian Democratic Alliance in
6 Bosnia-Herzegovina cooperated with the Party of
7 Democratic Action, the SDA, and they entered the war
8 together. At a referendum, they voted together and
9 their interests coincided, because, had the referendum
10 failed, Bosnia-Herzegovina would have been within the
11 frameworks of a Greater Serbia and this did not suit
12 either of them. So, they had common interests at the
14 Q. Professor, could you tell me how this overall
15 situation, bearing in mind the history we referred to
16 since 1980, affect relations and events in Konjic?
17 But, first, I should like you to tell us something
18 briefly about the geopolitical position of Konjic?
19 A. Konjic is one of the oldest towns in
20 Bosnia-Herzegovina, and, in fact, in the whole of the
21 former Yugoslavia. It is situated in the area of upper
22 Herzegovina, that is, northern Herzegovina, on both
23 banks of a river linking Bosnia with the Adriatic, or,
24 rather, linking the Danube basin, the centre of the
25 Balkans, with the Mediterranean.
1 Konjic, due to its great significance in
2 terms of communications, strategy and trade, became
3 very important in the political plans of both Croatia
4 and the Serbian side.
5 MS. RESIDOVIC: Could you tell us, what are
6 the ethnic characteristics of Konjic municipality?
7 To illustrate this, I should like to ask the
8 technicians to show us map H1/11?
9 A. This is an ethnic map of the municipality of
10 Konjic, using the same procedure as the other ethnic
11 map that you saw yesterday, and it uses the same
12 colours, reflecting the multi-ethnic composition of
13 Konjic municipality. According to the 1991 census, the
14 municipality of Konjic had a population of 43,878
15 inhabitants, out of which about 48 per cent -- sorry,
16 54 per cent were Bosniaks, 26 per cent were Croats, and
17 15 per cent were Serbs.
18 Q. Thank you. Was the majority of settlements
19 within the Konjic municipality with a mixed population?
20 A. Yes. This is typical of Konjic. It is a
21 municipality which is hilly -- it has 148 settlements,
22 but most in 1879 and 1910, according to the censuses of
23 those days, most of the settlements were ethnically
25 Q. Will you show us map H1/12 to explain what
1 you are just telling us?
2 A. This is also a map of Konjic municipality
3 showing the communes that were ethnically pure -- the
4 communes or settlements that were ethnically pure. The
5 blue indicates the Bosniaks; the red or brown -- I do
6 not know what it looks like as you see it -- are
7 Croats; and the yellow are Serbs and the pale blue
8 colour indicates mixed populations in the territory of
9 this municipality.
10 Q. Professor, could you tell us whether you know
11 what the results of the assembly elections for the
12 municipal assembly of Konjic were in 1990?
13 A. They roughly corresponded to the victory of
14 the nationalist parties in Bosnia-Herzegovina. The
15 same occurred in Konjic. The SDA won 28 out of the 60
16 seats, SDA -- I am sorry, SDS in 9 -- in percentages
17 the SDA had 35.-something, the Croats had 17.-something
18 and the Serbs 15 per cent.
19 MS. RESIDOVIC: Very well, I think I have the
20 percentages wrong. The percentages are not so
21 important. They can be found in the evidence already
23 In order to put my next question, could the
24 professor be given this binder, so that we could
25 comment on the organisation of authority in the
1 municipality? (Handed)
2 Will you please, professor, look at your
3 annex D7? We have the table that you made, so could
4 you please place it under the ELMO, or, since we all
5 have a copy, we can look at it together. It is D7 --
6 have you found it, professor?
7 A. Yes, yes.
8 Q. This annex that is being shown is marked
9 D136/1 and, within the binder, it is D7. Could you
10 please explain what this chart depicts?
11 A. This chart depicts the pre-war organisation
12 of Government in the municipality of Konjic.
13 Q. Was that organisation different from the same
14 institutions in other municipalities?
15 A. It was more or less the same as in other
16 municipalities. There are some minor differences --
17 not in Konjic but in some other municipalities, which
18 were smaller and they had fewer bodies.
19 Q. Can you tell me, please, which were the
20 executive bodies and which were the regulatory or
21 legislative bodies in the municipality?
22 A. In the constitutional legal reforms, which
23 lasted and which were carried out from 1980 until 1991,
24 there was tripartite authority introduced in
25 Bosnia-Herzegovina, legislative executive and
1 judiciary. On this chart we see the municipal
2 assembly, which had the function of a regulatory
3 institution, that is, one that passes regulations.
4 Then the executive powers were held in the executive
5 board, which had its own administrative bodies, or the
6 municipal administration.
7 Then we have several vertical lines here
8 (indicates). First, the public security service or the
9 police, which was directly subordinate to the centre of
10 security services, and the Ministry of the Interior of
11 Bosnia-Herzegovina. It is not subordinate to the
12 municipal assembly, but only cooperates with it.
13 The second vertical line shows the defence
14 department. It, too, was subordinate directly to the
15 Defence Ministry of the Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina,
16 and this dotted line going towards the municipal
17 assembly indicates the cooperation between the
18 municipal assembly and this department.
19 The third vertical line is the basic court --
20 it is the municipal court which was completely separate
21 from the municipal assembly and it was subordinate to
22 the higher court and the supreme court, or, rather, the
23 Ministry of Justice.
24 All these institutions that were subordinate
25 to the ministries were financed out of the republic's
1 budget and did not depend on the municipality. The
2 judges were appointed by the Ministry of Justice in the
3 Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina. So, we see that there
4 was also a rather special court, and that is the
5 Magistrates Court, which is an administrative court,
6 which tried minor offences and misdemeanours and its
7 jurisdiction was to sentence someone to 60 days in
8 prison and fines, for traffic offences and the like.
9 Q. Thank you. So that is the organisation of
10 authority before the war broke out. Tell us, since you
11 told us that the SDS was also one of the victorious
12 parties in the Konjic municipality, did the SDS of
13 Konjic implement the policies of the SDS of
14 Bosnia-Herzegovina that you spoke about yesterday?
15 A. Yes, it implemented the policies of the SDS
16 and it was also incorporated into the legal organs of
17 authority. If I may, it was incorporated until the
18 last session, the 9th session of the municipal
19 assembly, after which, two days after that, they walked
20 out of the municipal assembly bodies -- all the bodies,
21 except the public security service, which they
22 abandoned later on and formed their own service.
23 Q. Thank you. Could you tell us, professor,
24 whether your research has shown that, in their illegal
25 or semi-legal activities the SDS passed decisions
1 proclaiming parts of the municipality Serb territories?
2 A. On 22 March the so-called assembly of the
3 Serbian municipality formed the territory of the
4 Serbian municipality. It did so on the basis of two
5 principles. It took the settlements with a Serb
6 majority -- that was that Serbs accounted for more than
7 50 per cent of the population -- that was one principle
8 -- and the other principle was property ownership.
9 Wherever there was any property owned by Serb
10 households, these were proclaimed Serb territories, and
11 these villages were registered as being in the Serbs'
12 interests and such villages and settlements in the
13 municipality of Konjic were a total of 40, taking both
14 principles as a basis.
15 MS. RESIDOVIC: Professor, you have made a
16 chart of these decisions of the Serbian municipality,
17 so could we please see that map, too, H1/13?
18 A. I do not have that map.
19 MS. RESIDOVIC: Has the technical department
20 shown us this map -- H1/13?
21 That is the new map -- do you have this map
22 now on the monitor?
23 A. Yes, yes, thank you.
24 Q. Does this reflect their decision to divide
25 the municipality and to take control of areas as you
1 have just told us?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Very well, thank you. Could you tell me
4 whether your research has shown that the legal
5 authorities in Konjic municipality, after the decision
6 of the Presidency of the republic to proclaim an
7 immediate threat of war -- did they undertake certain
8 defensive measures? What do you know about those
10 A. The constitution envisaged that, when an
11 immediate threat of war is proclaimed, or a state of
12 war, the conditions were in place for a different
13 organisation of authority. After the proclamation of
14 an immediate threat of war, changes were introduced in
15 the organisation of authority, and a war presidency was
16 formed. Prior to this, a crisis staff existed for a
17 short while, but the war presidency was introduced
18 later, and this was provided for in the constitution,
19 so this was automatic, and this war presidency was a
20 substitute for the municipal assembly, because it had
21 regulatory powers -- what the municipal assembly had
22 before that -- but the war presidency, or the
23 presidency of the municipal assembly -- it was referred
24 to as the war presidency -- it held its meetings and
25 passed regulations with the effect of law for as long
1 as the conditions were such that the assembly could not
3 If conditions were normal, then the assembly
4 had to confirm those decisions.
5 Q. Can you tell us, after the beginning of the
6 war on 6 April, was a meeting of the assembly held?
7 A. The 9th session was the last to be held with
8 all the elected deputies taking part -- not all of
9 them, but at least all the parties that won seats
10 participated and this meeting was held on 17 April and
11 that session had a large agenda, but most important
12 among the items were two. One regarding the abolition
13 of the former Territorial Defence leadership and the
14 formation of a new one, and the appointment of a new
15 head of the Territorial Defence staff, whose
16 appointment needed to be confirmed by the republic.
17 The Serb deputies also participated -- out of
18 9 elected members, six participated. They voted
19 against the formation of the Territorial Defence.
20 Q. Professor, can you tell me whether, after the
21 new Territorial Defence was formed, which you have just
22 spoken about, the changes of the organisation of local
23 government also took place and since you drafted
24 another chart, could you please show us what changes
25 took place, looking at that chart which is D9?
1 A. Here is the chart of the organisation of
2 Government in the municipality during the war and
3 during the immediate threat of war. So, the municipal
4 assembly has now been replaced by the war presidency
5 and, as you can see, these full and broken lines
6 remained where they were before, which means that the
7 key change was really the substitution of the municipal
8 assembly, which was unable to meet.
9 So, only a smaller number of people could
10 meet and this war presidency takes over the powers
11 which had the municipal assembly. The other bodies, as
12 far as their subordination and their co-operation,
13 pretty much remained the same.
14 Q. Professor, in this chart I see an additional
15 body, which earlier was not separate, and I guess it
16 was because it was peace time?
17 A. Yes, this is the Territorial Defence and the
18 municipal staff of the Territorial Defence.
19 Q. You said that the assembly reorganised the
20 power and created this new body and its commander.
21 Could you tell me what this line then signifies there?
22 A. This perpendicular line shows that the
23 municipal staff of the Territorial Defence and
24 Territorial Defence units are not subordinated to the
25 presidency, but, rather, to the district staff of the
1 Territorial Defence and the main staff of the
2 Territorial Defence of Bosnia-Herzegovina.
3 Q. Professor, can you tell us, in 1992 in
4 Konjic, was the district headquarters staff in Mostar
5 in existence?
6 A. No.
7 Q. To whom then was this staff subordinated?
8 A. It was subordinated directly to the
9 republican staff or the main staff of the Territorial
11 JUDGE JAN: Just a minute. This map, there
12 is one line missing, the one you said that was directly
13 responsible to the TO -- not the district staff.
14 MS. RESIDOVIC: As far as I can tell, there
15 is a line here.
16 JUDGE JAN: There is one missing in the
17 chart supplied to me. This line is missing here.
18 MS. RESIDOVIC: It is possible -- your
19 Honours, do you have the line that is being shown on
20 the ELMO?
21 JUDGE JAN: No, I do not have it.
22 MS. RESIDOVIC: This is the TO units. My
23 apologies. Can we substitute it with another copy? My
24 apologies, this would just be a mistake.
25 JUDGE JAN: Show it to Madam Residovic.
1 He will show you the line which is missing to
2 which you are referring -- subordination to the
3 district staff.
4 MS. RESIDOVIC: Yes, the usher can show it to
6 MR. NIEMANN: Your Honours, may I raise a
8 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Yes, you may.
9 MR. NIEMANN: My understanding is that this
10 material which is now being shown to the professor was
11 admitted on the basis that it represented what he
12 relied upon in order to prepare his report. By showing
13 it to him now and going into the detail in which they
14 are going, it is certainly going beyond that basis of
15 admissibility and going into the area of the document
16 being admitted for the truth of its contents.
17 JUDGE JAN: This is a document prepared him
18 just to show what the organisation was in Konjic, and
19 he has prepared it himself. That is why she is
20 introducing it into evidence -- something he studied
21 and the chart which he prepared himself, just like we
22 admitted certain charts made by Dr. Calic.
23 MR. NIEMANN: I understand that, but the
24 position is that, somehow or other, the basis of
25 admissibility seems to have changed.
1 JUDGE JAN: I am not sure. We admitted
2 Dr. Calic's charts, which she prepared herself.
3 MR. NIEMANN: I am not talking about
4 Dr. Calic. What happens with another witness, depending
5 on the position taken by the Defence and the ruling of
6 your Honours, cannot automatically just apply.
7 JUDGE JAN: Not automatically, no. This is
8 material provided for us and to you to support the
9 basis on which he prepared his report so you can
10 cross-examine him with reference to that material.
11 MR. NIEMANN: In my submission, it is going
12 beyond that now, by this witness speaking to it in the
13 way that he has.
14 JUDGE JAN: You will notice that was missing
15 from the chart which I got.
16 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: The witness has not
17 said anything about the document he relied upon -- he
18 said nothing about it, if that is what he relied upon.
19 MR. NIEMANN: When he said this line here
20 represents the fact that the public security station is
21 subordinate to the Minister of the Interior and drawing
22 attention to those lines there, that goes beyond
23 saying, "This is a document which I relied on in order
24 to express my opinion." He is asserting by that that
25 this document is admitted for the truth of its
1 contents, namely, that the Ministry of the Interior is
2 superior to the public security station. It takes it
3 into a different category of evidence.
4 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Not if he is the author
5 of this particular document itself. He is presenting
6 what he has done.
7 MR. NIEMANN: I was under the
8 misapprehension that all of this material, which was
9 admitted in bulk, was admitted on the basis that it
10 merely went to show the basis upon which he relied upon
11 it. I am not so concerned about this chart, but I
12 notice the way it is being handled suggests that it is
13 being admitted for the truth, so there has been an
14 automatic jump to that point without any basis being
15 presented by the Defence as to why it should be.
16 There has not been one word said, as far as
17 I can recall, about the fact that he himself prepared
18 it, other than it is written on the document. I do not
19 recall him saying that, your Honour.
20 JUDGE JAN: Take it as a whole, made by --
21 MR. NIEMANN: I could have done that. That
22 would not have made it so -- I could have typed it on
24 JUDGE JAN: The reliability of this document
25 depends on the reliability of the witness.
1 MR. NIEMANN: That is so, but there are
2 numerous documents in here which we challenge. I am
3 just wishing to make the point that, when it comes to
4 those documents, I wish to raise my objection.
5 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: I think you are
6 perfectly right. When a document is represented for a
7 particular purpose, we have to know the authority under
8 which it is being represented. So if he is the author
9 of that document, then he could say so, and then we
10 treat it as such.
11 MR. NIEMANN: As far as I know, he has not
12 said so.
13 MS. RESIDOVIC: Your Honours, my apologies to
14 you, because obviously one of the lines was obviously
15 omitted on one of the copies of the charts, and as
16 I pointed out, the professor did consult all the
17 relevant documents when preparing these charts. I have
18 still not tendered these documents -- I have just had
19 them marked for identification. Right now we are going
20 through them and the witness is explaining how he
21 arrived at certain charts.
22 Now that we have, I believe, resolved the
23 technical problem relating to the chart -- do you have
24 the good copy of it?
25 JUDGE JAN: I have it now, thank you.
1 MS. RESIDOVIC: Professor, I would like now
2 to take you to the material which you used to prepare
3 your report and which relates to the war presidency and
4 the activities in Konjic in early 1992. Can you tell
5 us whether, during your research, you found documents
6 relating to the war presidency activity -- decisions of
7 that period?
8 A. In the supporting materials, I have provided
9 a document which is very characteristic of their work
10 and it is dated 3 June 1992. From these minutes of the
11 meeting of the presidency, you can glean the range and
12 the scope of questions that the war presidency handled
13 at that time.
14 Q. Could you please quote some of the issues
15 that were handled by the war presidency in early 1992?
16 A. It handled various issues relating to the
17 daily life of the local population. This was a session
18 held after the events in Bradina and Donje Selo -- the
19 presidency, the presidency orders that these areas be
20 repaired, that the medical care be provided -- and
21 examination be provided to the prisoners there, that
22 blankets be provided for them, and this is in Celebici
23 and then, as far as the town itself is concerned,
24 various economic issues -- the provision of food.
25 Since there is no money, the food stamps are
1 introduced, so the presidency tackles a whole range of
2 issues and I have provided a document -- the document
3 which states what decisions were taken at that time and
4 who was to implement them.
5 Q. The minutes of that session, which you have
6 just mentioned, are enclosed in the supporting
7 materials -- there are 22 decision that were taken
8 there. Were any decisions taken then which relate to
9 the commanding of the units of the Territorial Defence
11 A. No, I did not find any such decisions. These
12 were only decisions that related to the accommodation,
13 provision of food, acquiring of uniforms -- so, these
14 are the types of decisions. There is no decision on
15 control and command. It would be something that the
16 civilian government would do in a situation like that,
17 as set out by law.
18 There is not a single decision that relates
19 to the control or command of the military units.
20 Q. Professor, during the research that you
21 conducted in preparation of this report, did your
22 research provide you with an answer to the question as
23 to whether the war presidency was a civilian or a
24 military structure?
25 A. From these minutes, it is clear that the
1 municipal assembly is a civilian body and the war
2 presidency is also by extension a civilian body and so
3 it only handles the issues that the municipal assembly
4 handled in peace time. Obviously the conditions have
5 changed now -- they were wartime conditions -- but the
6 essence did not change; they only adopted the decisions
7 that belonged to the civilian government.
8 Q. Professor, by researching different documents
9 from archives in Konjic, could you determine whether
10 the war presidency in this period was highly involved
11 in these civilian-type matters?
12 A. Yes, it was very involved in such matters,
13 because, in Konjic -- Konjic was a cross-roads. The
14 refugees were coming through from both eastern Bosnia
15 and eastern Herzegovina, which additionally burdened
16 the already stretched resources for both accommodation
17 and food and also, in this period, this town was
18 heavily shelled and it was considered one of the four
19 or five worst affected towns in Bosnia that way.
20 There was a large number of refugees. This
21 included people who had been ethnically cleansed and
22 who found refuge in and around the town, so there was
23 an unbearable pressure being exercised and there were
24 these large numbers of people from eastern Bosnia, who
25 did not know where to go and what to do.
1 Q. Professor, among the documents that you have
2 submitted, there are also some documents which were
3 provided to you by the Defence, including a document of
4 18 May as to the appointment of Zejnil Delalic as a
5 co-ordinator of the Territorial Defence and war
6 presidency. My question to you is does this position
7 of co-ordinator imply a position of superior authority?
8 A. In the material that I have discovered,
9 I have not found -- I could not find anything that
10 would show me that, within the structure of any kind of
11 power, there is provision of co-ordination, so the
12 position of co-ordinator that Mr. Delalic was appointed
13 to is something that was created out of a desperate
14 situation that the town found itself in. So, you have
15 major problems of feeding the population, a huge number
16 of refugees, and also the war presidency had a major
17 task of organising the defence. You had --
18 JUDGE JAN: Just a minute. The witness is a
19 professor of history. How did he know who was a
21 MS. RESIDOVIC: I am satisfied with his
22 answer that he could not find a document which would
23 define the position of "co-ordinator" and I believe that
24 it is not necessary to go further into it.
25 A. I have consulted the documents. There are no
1 provisions for a co-ordinator, but there is nothing that
2 prevents it. It was something that was usual, to
3 co-ordinate in conditions when the regular institutions
4 have broken down.
5 Q. You just answered my next questions. I was
6 going to ask you whether, in this report or in this
7 research of yours, you found whether this was provided
8 by law and then, given the conditions, were some new
9 bodies created which assisted the war presidency and
10 which involved these co-ordinators?
11 A. There were other bodies as well, like the
12 civilian protection -- there were other bodies which
13 had the right and task to assist. But I am afraid
14 I may not have fully understood your question.
15 Q. Very well, professor, you created these
16 charts. You were looking at the very recent history
17 relating to the activities of the war presidency and,
18 in this capacity, could you tell me whether this
19 civilian body which appointed Zejnil Delalic could
20 appoint him to any military position?
21 A. No, it could not have done so, because the
22 military authorities would make such appointments.
23 Q. Very well. The next question could be
24 answered by just about anyone, so I am not going to ask
25 you whether a body can appoint someone who would be its
1 superior. However, let us move on.
2 In your research, have you found information
3 that, in 1992, a certain group of people was detained
4 in Celebici?
5 A. Through the Institute for Research of War
6 Crimes, I was able to see a document relating to the
7 list of people who were questioned in Celebici, because
8 this was actually a significant part of my report.
9 Q. Had you heard of Celebici before this
11 A. I had not heard of Celebici as a prison
12 before I undertook this research.
13 Q. Do you know that the army of
14 Bosnia-Herzegovina, during the war, had some prisons --
15 are you aware of any of them?
16 A. Yes, I am aware of it, because I had one
17 right across the street -- it was the military prison
18 and military court in Sarajevo, which was in the
19 barracks, and it was also the Military Geographic
20 Institute, so I am away of the fact that there was a
21 military court and a military prison in Sarajevo during
22 the war.
23 Q. Professor, in researching the conditions in
24 the country at the beginning of the war and as a
25 historian, were you able to find any documents which
1 would show that the legal authorities of
2 Bosnia-Herzegovina -- the Government of
3 Bosnia-Herzegovina -- had introduced any type of camps?
4 A. I agree with what the Bassiouni Commission
5 found. I think it was a very fair report, where it
6 says that all three sides in the conflict, that is, it
7 states that the Serbian forces, through the systematic
8 violations, it was part of their plan to conduct ethnic
9 cleansing; that also the Croatian side led by the
10 extremists also engaged in this.
11 Of course, Bassiouni's Commission also
12 contains a view that the legal forces of
13 Bosnia-Herzegovina, the Bosniak forces, which are the
14 Defence forces of the legal authorities, that they,
15 too, were engaged in serious violations, but that it
16 was not out of a plan -- it was not a plan of their
17 waging the war, that is, the violation of international
18 law, to engage in ethnic cleansing, to commit crimes
19 against innocent populations and such. So, my
20 conclusion is that these were exercises rather than a
22 Q. My question was a bit different. As a
23 historian, you have the right to rely on any source in
24 submitting your views, and so you mentioned the
25 Bassiouni Commission report, but did you find any
1 document which would speak to the fact that the legal
2 authorities in Konjic had created a camp -- did you
3 find any such document?
4 A. No, I did not find any such document, nor do
5 I believe -- no, I did not find any such document which
6 would speak of camps. In Konjic it was a problem of
7 space. Konjic did not have a prison; they had to
8 accommodate a large number of people somewhere.
9 Q. So, professor, did you find any decision on
10 the establishment of a prison?
11 A. No, I did not find it.
12 Q. You said that you consulted with the
13 institute for the investigation of war crimes. Can you
14 say, based on the documents you saw, how many people
15 were detained in Celebici?
16 A. Regardless of the fact that I wanted to
17 establish this fact, I was not able to do so.
18 According to what I saw, and it is possible that I did
19 not find all the existing materials -- it could be that
20 certain documents were either destroyed or lost
21 relating to certain prisoners, but, based on what
22 I saw, there could have been about 200 to 250 prisoners
23 there -- up to 300 at the most. Obviously, the number
24 varies. The number was largest after the events in
25 Bradina and Donje Selo and later it diminishes, so it
1 could have been up to 300.
2 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: I think we can break
3 now and come back at 12 noon.
4 -- recesses taken at 11.30 a.m.
5 -- on resuming at 12.04 p.m.
6 [Open session]
7 [The witness entered court]
8 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Kindly remind the
9 witness he is still under the oath.
10 THE REGISTRAR: May I remind you, Sir, that
11 you still under oath?
12 A. Yes, I am aware of that.
13 MS. RESIDOVIC: Professor, you said that
14 reviewing the documents of the institute for
15 investigating crimes in Sarajevo, you found a quantity
16 of data on persons detained in Celebici. Please, can
17 you tell me, by reviewing those documents, were you
18 able to reach a conclusion as to who those persons
19 were, about whom those documents were that you saw?
20 A. They were citizens and inhabitants of the
21 municipality of Konjic, mostly from the village of
22 Bradina, Donje Selo and Podunavlje - mostly.
23 Q. Among those documents, did you find data as
24 to whether any criminal proceedings were being
25 conducted against those people?
1 A. Yes. There are quite a number of reports on
2 investigations and then, later on, there are 105
3 criminal charges against persons for criminal offences.
4 Q. Attached to your report are a number of court
5 rulings on the discontinuation of those proceedings.
6 Can you tell us what they are?
7 A. This was an amnesty proclaimed by the legal
8 authorities in Bosnia-Herzegovina -- not because those
9 people were not guilty, but because they did so out of
11 Q. Professor, will you please tell me, on the
12 basis of your research and study of the material at
13 your disposal, could you see whether those people were
14 members of the Yugoslavia People's Army?
15 A. No, they were civilians.
16 Q. Were they in uniform -- are there data about
17 such things?
18 A. Some of them had uniforms, but they did not
19 have any insignia. It is not recorded anywhere that
20 anybody had any rank or anything like that.
21 Q. And did you see among those documents whether
22 they were armed?
23 A. They were brought there on charges that they
24 had been armed, and it was recorded that most of them
25 had military weapons and that they were putting armed
1 resistance against the legal army, that is the
2 Territorial Defence, the HVO and so on.
3 Q. Did your research, professor, lead you to
4 make any conclusions whether those persons were
5 citizens of Konjic or did they come from other towns?
6 A. They were mostly local people -- villagers
7 and some people from town. There were parts of the
8 town where they lived -- they were people whose
9 families had lived there for 100 years, some of them
10 even longer, so there is no doubt as to that. They
11 were local inhabitants of the municipality of Konjic.
12 Q. Did your research answer the question whether
13 those people were citizens of the Republic of
15 A. I am not an expert for citizenship issues.
16 As far as I am concerned, I was a national of
17 Bosnia-Herzegovina and a national of the Socialist
18 Federal Republic of Yugoslavia, and, according to the
19 1974 Bosnia-Herzegovina constitution, the citizens of
20 Bosnia-Herzegovina are citizens of Bosnia-Herzegovina
21 and of the Socialist Federal Republic of Yugoslavia.
22 MR. NIEMANN: I object to that. The witness
23 has said that he is not an expert then proceeds to give
24 an opinion.
25 JUDGE JAN: He is talking about himself
1 now. He said so far as he is concerned he is a citizen
2 of Bosnia-Herzegovina and also under the 1974
3 constitution, he was a citizen of the Socialist Federal
4 Republic of Yugoslavia.
5 MR. NIEMANN: I do not want to pursue it.
6 He was called as an expert witness. Then he says he is
7 not an expert and then proceeds to give an opinion on
9 JUDGE JAN: As to himself.
10 MR. NIEMANN: So long as it is limited to
11 that, your Honour.
12 MS. RESIDOVIC: The professor has explained
13 his position by referring to a certain document and he
14 is able to say that as a scholar. He said that the
15 1974 constitution of Bosnia-Herzegovina -- could you
16 repeat what that constitution says?
17 A. The constitution stipulates that the citizens
18 of Bosnia-Herzegovina are citizens of
19 Bosnia-Herzegovina and also citizens of the Socialist
20 Federal Republic of Yugoslavia. From the Defence
21 department, I received certain certificates on the
22 citizenship of individual detainees, and I checked them
23 in the Konjic municipality, where they are registered
24 as citizens of Bosnia-Herzegovina, and this can be
25 checked -- there is no problem there.
1 According to the Dayton treaty, there is this
2 nationality of Bosnia-Herzegovina which has continuity
3 -- whose continuity has been recognised.
4 Q. Professor, did your research lead you to
5 conclude anything about the kind of prison Celebici
6 was? Was it a civilian or a military prison?
7 A. To tell you the truth, I am not an expert on
8 prisons, but I was not able to establish it -- I think
9 there were several agencies that had competence over
10 that prison, so it is very difficult to establish. For
11 a time it was a civilian prison, then a military one,
12 then, later, it became a prison over which the police
13 and the army had control, then the higher court, which
14 grants amnesty and so on, so it is really very
15 difficult to be very specific about that and I do not
16 feel competent to go into any further details regarding
17 that, or to make any far-reaching conclusions.
18 If I may, if you wish --
19 Q. But you said that you were not competent on
20 this area. I cannot expect an expert to voice an
21 opinion about things he is not competent for. You have
22 told us what your conclusions were on the basis of your
23 research and I thank you for it.
24 As you said earlier on, you went to the
25 Konjic municipality to do your research in various
1 institutions. Professor, can you please tell us
2 whether you learned what the general situation was in
3 the recent history, that is, during the six months
4 while the prison existed, what was the situation like
5 in Konjic and what were the conditions under which the
6 inhabitants of Konjic lived?
7 JUDGE JAN: I think he answered this
8 question yesterday. He said there were food shortages
9 and there were refugees coming in and there were
10 shortages of everything. I think he said that
12 MS. RESIDOVIC: Thank you for reminding me.
13 I will now ask a more specific question, which was not
14 answered yesterday. There was yesterday mention of
15 food and today of refugees but now I should like to ask
16 you whether, in that period of time, there was a
17 certain number of civilians exposed to injuries,
18 wounding, killings -- did you discover any facts along
19 those lines?
20 A. The hospital in Konjic provided data on the
21 persons who were wounded and killed. They gave data on
22 civilian and military casualties. These data are
23 incomplete, because there were several hundred in the
24 group of soldiers -- I cannot recall exactly the
25 numbers -- they can be found in my report. I think
1 about 400 or 450 civilians and about 1,200 wounded or
2 killed soldiers.
3 Q. Thank you. Professor, we have seen the
4 videos and we also have discussed Sarajevo under
5 siege. Could you tell us, on the basis of your overall
6 research, including what you did in preparation of this
7 report, why was the lifting of the siege of Sarajevo so
9 A. Sarajevo is, above all, the centre and the
10 capital of Bosnia-Herzegovina. It is where the central
11 State institutions are situated, and the question of
12 Sarajevo was really the question of Bosnia-Herzegovina.
13 Q. How many people were living in Sarajevo at
14 the time?
15 A. 300,000 in a cauldron surrounded by hills and
16 from it was impossible to leave -- the only way out was
17 across the runway controlled by the UNPROFOR. At the
18 same time this is an open space exposed to Serb snipers
19 who were killing people.
20 Q. So your final conclusion, please, linked to
21 this fact of the surrounded Sarajevo, tell me, do you,
22 as a scholar, consider that all the human, military and
23 other reasons existed for each individual and State
24 body to try and lift the siege of Sarajevo?
25 A. Those of us who were in enclosed Sarajevo
1 felt that most acutely. I think this is something that
2 is self-evident. Both people inside and outside wanted
3 and kept trying to lift the siege, but the system was
4 so firm that it was simply impossible to make a
5 breakthrough without international aid.
6 Q. Professor, we will now move on to the last
7 group of questions that I intended to put to you. As
8 we go through your report and the supporting material
9 that you relied on in preparing that report and your
10 testimony, tell me, professor, before this engagement,
11 did you know any of the persons who are accused in this
13 A. No, I did not know any one of the accused and
14 I saw them for the first time here in the courtroom.
15 Q. In the course of the war, or before the war,
16 had you ever heard of Zejnil Delalic?
17 A. No, I had not heard of Zejnil Delalic.
18 Q. In preparing your expert report and leafing
19 through the documents that you found on the ground, did
20 you come across any data about Mr. Zejnil Delalic.
21 Actually, I am asking whether you checked in any way
22 the fact whether Zejnil Delalic was a member of any
23 body in the Konjic municipality?
24 A. According to the information I received in
25 Konjic, he was not officially a member of any
2 Q. Did you learn whether he was a member of any
3 political organisation in Konjic?
4 A. That is what I am talking about -- he was not
5 a member of any political organisation.
6 Q. In view of the fact that you have attached
7 the Statute of the war presidency, some of its
8 conclusions and decisions, did you come across any
9 information that would indicate that Zejnil Delalic was
10 a member of the war presidency of the Konjic
12 A. He could not have been a member of the war
13 presidency, because that was prescribed by law. He
14 could only have been invited to attend a meeting of the
15 presidency, but he certainly was not a member of that
17 Q. Reviewing the documents in the possession of
18 the Defence, you probably learned some other facts.
19 Did you at all go into the question of Zejnil Delalic's
20 appointment to any military function?
21 A. As far as I know, and I saw the order
22 appointing him commander of Tactical Group 1, and his
23 subsequent appointment to another post, I saw that
24 order, too -- as deputy commander for logistics in
25 Group South. That is all that I saw.
1 Q. Did you come across any data that would lead
2 you to believe with certainty when Zejnil Delalic left
3 Konjic and why?
4 A. I did not go into that issue. He simply
5 disappeared from Konjic and I was not able to follow
6 that from the materials I examined -- perhaps a
7 military expert could do that better than I.
8 Q. Did the documents at your disposal refer to
9 subsequent activities of Zejnil Delalic after he left
11 A. In my expert report, I did not take that into
12 consideration, because I did not have the relevant data
13 for that. That would have to be investigated where
14 Mr. Delalic was, and I did not go into that.
15 Q. Professor, could you please tell me whether
16 you know that, in Austria, there is an association of
17 Bosnians of the Party of Democratic Action?
18 A. I know that there is a club -- I even visited
19 it once in Vienna -- we called it the Bosnian club.
20 That is what people told me -- it is a Bosnian club.
21 I did not even know what its exact name was. We just
22 went to see the place where Bosnians gathered. But I
23 did not know it was a club of Democratic Action. It
24 was a club that Bosnians frequented .
25 Q. Tell me, as you had personal experience, did
1 you, on that occasion, or later, in preparation of this
2 report, know that that club was a political Party of
3 the SDA?
4 A. As far as I know, there is no SDA in Austria,
5 because there cannot be a foreign political Party
6 working legally in another State. Therefore, the
7 Democratic Action Party could not, either, and I read
8 that Alija Izetbegovic, that there are no parties but
9 there are other forms of activity, cultural
10 associations and so on, but no political activity.
11 MS. RESIDOVIC: Thank you, professor.
12 Your Honours, I have completed my examination
13 of this witness. I should now like to, in line with
14 the procedure applied by this Trial Chamber when
15 adopting the report and documents of witness Dr. Calic,
16 I would now tender into evidence the report, the expert
17 report of professor Dr. Hadzibegovic, that we take
18 judicial notice of the list of documents as already
19 admitted evidence from the report of Dr. Calic, which
20 this expert has referred to, because attached to his
21 expert report, there is a review of the documents that
22 he used and included in his own documents as the basis
23 for his own expert opinion.
24 Third, that we admit into evidence the maps
25 and all the charts, which have been clarified by the
1 witness in this courtroom and, finally, that we admit
2 into evidence the other documents contained in the
3 folder as documents on the basis of which this expert
4 has compiled his expert report and opinion.
5 MR. NIEMANN: I object, your Honours.
6 I object. At least some of the documents have been
7 shown to the professor and, insofar as they are
8 concerned, we now have some understanding perhaps of
9 the source of some of them. The vast bulk of the
10 documents, we do not anything about the source of them;
11 we know nothing about the truth of their contents. All
12 we know is that they are material which the professor
13 says apparently he has relied upon for the purposes of
14 his opinion.
15 Again, at this stage, we have said that our
16 objection is not directed to that basis of
17 admissibility. Our objection is directed to them being
18 admitted and, in particular, with respect to specific
19 documents, to them being admitted for the truth of
20 their contents.
21 Your Honours, if we are to comply with what
22 happened in relation to Dr. Calic -- as I understand it,
23 I was not here at the time -- but as I understand it
24 the documents were not admitted until after
25 cross-examination, so it is not in accordance with what
1 happened there, and it is simply not appropriate to
2 say, "Well, there was no objection in relation to
3 Dr. Calic, therefore we rely on that practice and they
4 automatically become admissible."
5 That is not the appropriate basis. If an
6 objection is raised, as your Honours know, the Defence
7 must deal with the objection, and, your Honours, our
8 position has been, right from the outset, that it is
9 because we were confronted with all this material that
10 we have not had, and still have not had the opportunity
11 to finally determine which ones we are prepared to
12 simply say, "We have no objection to them going into
13 evidence." Indeed, in relation to a number of them, we
14 would not have any objection -- in some cases we fail
15 to see the relevance of them, but, if the Defence feel
16 that they somehow or other are central to their case
17 and want to argue that, that is a matter for them. It
18 increases the burden of work for your Honours, but we
19 will not raise serious objection to it.
20 There is a category of these documents which
21 are nothing more than Madam Residovic writing to some
22 institution, whether it be in Konjic or somewhere else,
23 asking for information and getting a letter in reply
24 from them saying, "Zejnil Delalic is not a member of
25 the SDA" or some similar such thing, and she is trying
1 to seek to tender it in this way. We object to that,
2 and we object to it because if they want to establish
3 that, and it is important for them to establish that,
4 then they should call the person from that particular
5 institution who can come along and tell us that. We
6 are then given the opportunity to cross-examine on it.
7 So, your Honours, my suggestion at this stage
8 is that at least the admissibility issue be determined
9 after cross-examination is completed and, hopefully, we
10 can be slightly more helpful in terms of being able to
11 say to you, "Well, in relation to all of these
12 documents, we have no objection, and we just ground our
13 objection in relation to the following ones." That is
14 our submission, your Honours.
15 MS. RESIDOVIC: Your Honours, if you recall,
16 there were many objections regarding the evidence of
17 Dr. Calic. I remember I objected to all the charts of
18 Dr. Calic regarding the position and mutual
19 relationships of bodies and the question of a
20 co-ordinator. You admitted those documents, but you
21 said that we could establish those facts in our case
22 and each time you admitted evidence, you reminded us of
23 the Rules of this Tribunal, according to which, if a
24 party is able to contest the document, that it can
25 always do so by referring to Rule 89 and 92
2 I have again studied very closely the
3 procedure we went through at the time, and I think, by
4 tendering the evidence in this way, I am fully
5 respectful of your rulings in that case. There is no
6 difference here with respect to the previous expert.
7 The only difference is that this expert has been called
8 by the Defence and the last time it was the Prosecution
9 who called the witness. But I think from the
10 standpoint of the Trial Chamber, this is identical and,
11 as you have said many times, we are absolutely equal
12 before this Trial Chamber.
13 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Is that your answer to
14 the criticisms? Is that your answer?
15 MS. RESIDOVIC: Yes, your Honour.
16 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: There are still so many
17 open-ended things. There is the expert report, which
18 the expert himself has produced. In addition to that,
19 there are the annexes to that report. If you look at
20 the annexes, there are so many areas you might have
21 mentioned in your examination-in-chief which you might
22 have relied upon, and there are other areas which have
23 not been touched and there are also areas where they
24 have been in a different language, which do not appear
25 to have been translated, or, if translated, there is
1 nothing to show that they have been.
2 The difficulty is how you relate this to the
3 report and, for the purposes of admissibility, whether
4 you can rely on this -- not only by the expert himself
5 but also by each of those who want to rely on these
6 annexes for the purposes of his report. I do not
7 think the question of his report would be very
8 seriously challenged, because he is here himself to
9 authenticate it and admit that he is the author of the
11 When it comes to the annexes and maps --
12 some produced by him, others perhaps not by him -- they
13 also have their own difficulties. I am not prepared to
14 go into what you said about Dr. Calic and the like,
15 because my recollection of Dr. Calic is that the chart
16 was produced by the expert herself. I do not see you
17 can argue with somebody who said, "I produce this chart
18 and I rely on it for the purposes of my report." They
19 are quite different things.
20 Here, there are annexes which perhaps might
21 require explanation. It is not the same thing. You
22 might be able to distinguish the expert report itself
23 from the documents which you now rely upon for the
24 purposes of the reports and those documents which you
25 have not even referred to at all. You referred to some
1 of them and, as the Prosecutor has pointed out, some of
2 the reports might have been letters in reply to your
3 own queries and written by somebody who is not here to
4 say whether he wrote them or not.
5 There is quite a lot of explanation to make
6 in respect of it. To take a document like this
7 (indicating) and admit it without knowing exactly what
8 it is, that is a fairly difficult thing to do. As
9 I said, it is a different thing with the expert
11 MS. RESIDOVIC: Your Honours, as you have
12 asked me whether that was my complete answer before
13 your comments, I thought that I had answered, but now
14 I understand you better. I am tendering the report as
15 evidence straight away, because the witness has covered
16 the whole report through my questions.
17 Secondly, I really have to refer again to the
18 previous procedure, and I immediately propose that
19 although this witness has confirmed that he has checked
20 each of my letters in the municipality, I propose that
21 those documents should not be admitted at all -- there
22 are four or five of them.
23 Thirdly, in Dr. Calic's binder, there are
24 documents which I personally gave to the Prosecution
25 and which the Prosecution gave to Dr. Calic, and no-one
1 at that stage checked how come Dr. Calic had a document
2 which I had given the Prosecution. So, that was the
3 attitude towards the relevancy of documents which she
4 used to base her opinion on.
5 Briefly, in annex 1, which has been submitted
6 to you, it contains literature, laws and all the things
7 that Professor Hadzibegovic has told us about. It is
8 the historical materials he has been working with for
9 years, and which he used to make an assessment of the
10 present period.
11 Therefore, annex 1 only, under item 11, has a
12 table, which, as can be seen from that table or chart,
13 is one that the professor himself made on the basis of
14 his own research. Therefore, that annex, in its
15 entirety, can be admitted already today.
16 As for annex B, in this annex, taking into
17 account the explanation he gave, the professor said
18 that he used the specific documents used by Dr. Calic,
19 and he incorporated them in his expert report and those
20 are official gazettes and the material of the Institute
21 for the Study of War Crimes in Sarajevo, which Dr. Calic
22 also relied upon in a part of her expert opinion.
23 Annex C contains documents which the
24 professor received in the Institute while working on
25 this issue and under item 2 is the population
1 composition of the Croatian Community of Herceg-Bosna,
2 a list that this professor made himself on the basis of
3 data obtained.
4 As for annex D, it includes a number of
5 official gazettes of Bosnia-Herzegovina, which were
6 already submitted to this Trial Chamber in Dr. Calic's
7 list, and were used by the professor as well, and this
8 also contains a part of the documentation that the
9 Defence gave to this expert and which he, as he just
10 said in answer to my last question, checked partially
11 and partially felt that it was a sufficient basis for
12 him to make conclusions. As I said at the end, there
13 are four or five documents given to the professor by
14 the Defence and it sought replies in 1992 from these
15 institutions. The professor verified these, but if
16 these four or five documents are an obstacle to the
17 admission of this folder, the Defence proposes
18 immediately that all the documents requested by the
19 Defence from some other institution should be excluded
20 from this folder after which all the documents could be
21 admitted as a basis for the expert's report and
23 MR. OLUJIC: Your Honours, my client has
24 asked for a five-minute break, if he may beg the
25 court's indulgence, please.
1 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: In any event, we should
2 be stopping at 1 o'clock. If it is too much for him to
3 wait, very well. Is it that pressing? If it is not,
4 we will stop at 1.
5 MR. OLUJIC: I have been so informed by my
6 client. Thank you very much for your understanding,
7 your Honour.
8 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: I think we will rise
9 and let him -- how long would it take him to be ready?
10 We will come back at --
11 MR. OLUJIC: Five minutes, your Honours. If
12 necessary, he can leave and we can continue the
13 discussion. He is just asking permission to leave for
14 five minutes. The Trial Chamber need not rise.
15 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: I do not know what it
16 might turn out to be. We will rise for 10 minutes.
19 -- recess taken at 12.40 p.m. to 12.50 p.m.
20 whereupon luncheon adjournment taken
21 -- on resuming at 2.30 p.m.
1 [Open Session]
2 MS. BOLER: Your Honours, may I address the
3 court? Nancy Boler, co-counsel along with Cynthia
4 McMurrey. Ms. McMurrey has felt bad all morning and has
5 got sicker during lunch. With your permission, she has
6 gone back to the hotel to try and get better.
7 Secondly, also during lunch, Mr. Blizzard came
8 in and told me that Mr. Landzo is having some dental
9 problems and that they had arranged for him to see a
10 dentist the day after tomorrow at noon and that he was
11 going to make a request through the Registry that we
12 adjourn court at 11.30 Thursday morning and resume at
13 2 p.m., to accommodate the dentist. I am sure you will get
14 it in a more formal manner. That is what I was told a
15 few minutes ago.
16 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Thank you very much for
17 your information.
18 (The witness entered court)
19 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Remind the witness he
20 is still under oath.
21 THE REGISTRAR: I remind you, Sir, that you
22 are still under oath.
23 A. Yes, thank you, I acknowledge that.
24 MS. RESIDOVIC: Your Honours, before breaking
25 for lunch, I had offered these exhibits into evidence.
1 I have no new arguments for the Trial Chamber
2 concerning these exhibits.
3 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Thank you very much.
4 I think perhaps at the end of the cross-examination you
5 may renew your application and we will consider it.
6 MS. RESIDOVIC: Thank you. I have completed
7 my examination-in-chief of this witness.
8 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Any questions?
9 Cross-examined by MR. MORAN
10 Q. If I can have your indulgence to get situated
11 for a second. You have always been very good about
13 May it please the court, good afternoon,
14 professor. We have met. I do not think I have
15 formally introduced myself. My name is Tom Moran.
16 I represent a man named Hazim Delic. He is the last
17 man sitting over there. You do not know Hazim, do you?
18 A. No, I do not.
19 Q. Sometimes I talk a little fast and sometimes
20 my questions are not as clear as they could be, and so,
21 if you do not understand something I say, will you stop
22 me and we will work with it, and one other thing, if
23 you look there is a lady in black over there and there
24 is a lady in orange over there. They are what are
25 called court reporters. They have to write down
1 everything we say to make a record of the trial, and
2 they cannot write down a nod, so you have to answer
3 "Yes" or "No". You have to answer out loud so
4 historians in the future can look at our record and be
5 able to know what we did here. Okay, professor?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. In general I want to discuss with you some
8 things in general and I will go through some of these
9 documents that were presented to you, but just in
10 general I want to talk to you about what historians do
11 and how they work. Sometimes, for instance, you might
12 have what we would call in America an oral history --
13 you might actually be able to talk to some person who
14 was part of an event. You might be able to talk to
15 George Bush, or Margaret Thatcher and other times you
16 might have to rely on documents; is that right?
17 A. That is correct.
18 Q. So, for instance, if you were doing something
19 on the history of ancient Rome obviously you would have
20 to rely on nothing but documents?
21 A. That is correct.
22 Q. And, when an historian is trained, he is
23 trained to look at documents and determine which
24 documents are reliable, which are relevant, and
25 basically separate the wheat from the chaff; is that a
1 fair statement?
2 A. That is correct.
3 Q. And, as an historian, you would rely on
4 documents prepared by others in reaching your opinions;
5 is that a fair statement?
6 A. I did not understand the question.
7 Q. Okay. That is good, thank you for stopping
8 me. If you were preparing a class, a lecture, writing
9 a book or giving an opinion about something, it would
10 be very common for you to rely on documents that were
11 prepared by other people in reaching those opinions; is
12 that not fair?
13 A. You obviously use documents which have been
14 used by other people, including the historians, of
16 Q. Sure. You might go to the -- if you were
17 doing a history of London, you might go to the British
18 Museum or the British libraries and look at original
19 documents, archives, from years ago, and rely on those
20 kinds of documents to reach your opinion?
21 A. That is correct.
22 MR. MORAN: If the usher could give the
23 witness the volume of maps and the volume of documents
24 and the volume with the report, we might be able to get
25 through this a little bit quicker. (Handed)
1 Professor, let us just start with the volume
2 of maps, because it was on the top of my pile. Let us
3 go to the first map, map M1. You did not prepare that
4 -- I understand -- I know exactly what you are doing,
5 I have been there, looking for the glasses. Map M1,
6 you did not prepare that map, did you, doctor?
7 A. No, this is a map that was taken over -- it
8 was borrowed from the military encyclopaedia.
9 Q. This map is the kind of thing that a person
10 of your profession would rely upon in reaching an
11 opinion; is that correct?
12 A. (Witness nods head) Yes.
13 Q. Even though you did not prepare it yourself?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Let us go to map 2, you did not prepare this
16 map, either, did you?
17 A. This map was taken from an atlas compiled by
18 a professor in Zagreb, Mr. Ljubo Boban, a member of the
19 academy and I used several of the maps from this atlas,
20 because I considered them reliable and I considered
21 them very well made indeed.
22 Q. It is the kind of thing that a person in your
23 profession would rely on in reaching an opinion?
24 A. Yes, because there is no need for me to
25 create new maps when there is something already
1 available, which has been an excellent quality work and
2 it contributes to our science and I also knew
3 personally this man, who has since died, but he was an
4 excellent scholar.
5 Q. And, in fact, we would call that reinventing
6 the wheel -- you do not have to reinvent the wheel
7 every time you want to use one; right?
8 A. That is correct.
9 Q. Let us go to map 4, professor. You did not
10 prepare map 4, did you?
11 A. No.
12 Q. Do you know who prepared it?
13 A. I borrowed this map from another book, which
14 is a published work and I think it reflects the
15 situation as it actually is. It is not as detailed of
16 a map, but it is still detailed enough with respect to
17 what we wanted to show here, which was this project of
18 Serbian lands.
19 Q. And that is the kind of thing that a person
20 in your profession would rely upon in reaching an
22 A. Yes, absolutely, of course.
23 Q. And map 5, again, you did not prepare this,
24 did you?
25 A. No, this is a map from the same atlas which
1 I have mentioned before, compiled by Mr. Ljubo Boban.
2 Q. And it is still the kind of thing that a
3 person in your profession would rely upon in reaching
4 an opinion?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Let us go to map 6, M6. Again, this is
7 something that someone else prepared?
8 A. Yes. This map has been published in a book
9 by Suad Arnautovic entitled, "How Bosnia Was Defended".
10 MR. MORAN: This, again, is the kind of thing
11 that a person in your profession would rely upon in
12 reaching an opinion.
13 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Mr. Moran, if you looked
14 at it carefully, the source of each of these have been
15 indicated on the maps themselves.
16 MR. MORAN: Your Honour, what I am doing is
17 replying essentially to the objection made by
18 Mr. Niemann and I want to show that each and every one
19 of these documents was one relied upon by this man and
20 secondly is the kind of thing that is relied upon by
21 people in his profession in reaching an opinion.
22 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: The maps themselves
23 have the sources indicated.
24 MR. NIEMANN: We have never disputed at any
25 stage these documents are documents that were relied
1 upon. Right from the very outset I said that. If that
2 is what Mr. Moran is doing, I do not know why, because
3 I have already said it and said it from the start. It
4 has never been disputed that the professor relied on
6 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: There is no problem
7 about this.
8 MR. MORAN: Your Honour, I think to meet his
9 objections to the admissibility of the documents
10 I think I have to go through each and every one of them
11 and prove not only did he rely upon them but they are
12 the kinds of things a person in his profession would
13 rely upon and they in fact were relied upon in his
15 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Thank you very much.
16 I think none of this is disputed by even the
18 MR. MORAN: If that covers both the maps and
19 the documents in this book --
20 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: I would not say the
21 same thing as to the documents, but for the maps, I can
23 MR. MORAN: At this point I would move
24 admission of the book of maps, whatever the exhibit
25 number is.
1 Let us go to the big book and annex A. The
2 first document in annex A is A1, which is a portion of
3 the Bosnian constitution; is that correct?
4 A. Yes, that is correct -- that is exactly it.
5 Q. And is that the current constitution, or is
6 that an earlier constitution?
7 A. This is a version of the constitution under
8 the Austro-Hungarian rule -- this is the Austrian
9 constitution and I think this is actually the original
10 first edition of this constitution.
11 Q. Professor, obviously you did not prepare that
12 -- it is a constitution of 1880, and obviously someone
13 else prepared that document?
14 A. This is a constitution which was printed as
15 an official version of the Bosnian constitution in
16 1910. This is not a later edition and, even if it were
17 a later printing, it would be beyond any doubt -- it is
18 something that originates from that era, so this is an
19 historical document.
20 Q. It is clearly the kind of thing that an
21 historian would rely upon in reaching opinions, is it
22 not, professor?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. And in fact you relied upon it in reaching
25 the opinions that you gave in your report; is that
2 A. Yes, yes.
3 Q. Let us move to document A2, which purports to
4 be the constitution of the kingdom of Serbs, Croats and
5 Slovenians -- it has a version in what appears to be
6 Serbian and behind it is an English translation?
7 A. Yes, there is also a stamp there -- the stamp
8 of the archives of Bosnia-Herzegovina, and that means
9 that a copy was used that is deposited in the archives
10 of Bosnia-Herzegovina as an historical document and
11 I would like to point you to the front page.
12 Q. Yes, I have noticed that, professor. The
13 Bates stamp number on that --
14 A. So that means it has been registered.
15 Q. That would be the page that has the stamp at
16 the bottom that says 00013?
17 A. Yes, of the archives of Bosnia-Herzegovina,
18 that is correct.
19 Q. That is the kind of document that an
20 historian would rely on in reaching opinions -- yes?
21 A. This is an original document.
22 Q. And you in fact relied upon that in reaching
23 the opinions that are recorded in your report?
24 A. Yes, of course.
25 Q. Now, the next document appears to be a
1 breakdown by population -- that would be document A3 --
2 which appears to be a breakdown by population group of
3 various religions?
4 A. Excuse me, what number are you referring to?
5 Q. A3, and the page would be 20 -- the stamp
6 down at the bottom, 20. Professor I will hold it up
7 and show it to you -- will that help you find it --
8 this one (indicates).
9 A. These tables were prepared on the basis of
10 the official census between 1850 and 1991. All
11 official census data were shown here in which the
12 official State sources were used. There were no
13 private data used -- you can see that 13 different
14 census-taking data were used and I have also given all
15 the pertinent sources for each one of them.
16 Q. And you prepared that chart?
17 A. Yes, I prepared this table.
18 Q. And it is prepared based on the kinds of
19 documents that people in your profession would rely
20 upon in reaching opinions or giving data; is that a
21 fair assessment, doctor?
22 A. That is correct.
23 Q. And, in fact, you relied on that chart in
24 reaching the opinions that are included in your report?
25 A. Yes, yes.
1 Q. Let us go to document A4, which I understand
2 is a resolution of the city of Mostar Muslims in 1941?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Obviously you did not prepare that document?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. But it appears to have come from a printed
7 source of some kind. Is that printed document, the
8 book that this came from the kind of thing that
9 historians would rely on in reaching opinions and in
10 writing books and articles and giving classes?
11 A. This is the latest edition of a series of
12 resolutions of the Muslim citizens addressed to the
13 authorities in 1941.
14 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: I thought the source
15 was indicated at the top.
16 MR. MORAN: I wanted to make sure it is the
17 kind of thing that an historian would rely upon in
18 reaching opinions, your Honour.
19 MR. NIEMANN: I do not know whether it helps
20 to repeat my position. I thought I made it clear on
21 numerous occasions that the Prosecution has not at any
22 stage suggested that any of this material is not
23 material upon which the professor relied in order to
24 express his opinion. Our objection goes to the truth
25 of the contents of some of the documents -- that is the
1 only issue. So if the exercise that Mr. Moran is now
2 embarking upon is to establish that this material is
3 material that the professor relied upon in order to
4 express his opinion, he is wasting everybody's time.
5 MR. MORAN: I am also going to the fact that
6 it is the kind of document that historians and people
7 in his profession rely upon in reaching their opinions.
8 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Well and good.
9 MR. MORAN: If the Prosecutor wants to
10 stipulate that in fact each one of these documents in
11 this book is a document that was relied upon by this
12 witness in reaching his opinion, in fact has included
13 in his opinion and is the kind of document that people
14 in his profession rely upon in reaching opinions, then
15 I think I can stop -- as long as Mr. Niemann is willing
16 to stipulate to all of that.
17 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: He is not objecting
18 that these were matters on which an opinion could be
19 based. It is when you rely on it for the truth of what
20 you are saying, then that is where perhaps the problems
21 might arise. He is not disputing that you can rely on
22 it for forming an opinion. The Prosecution is not
23 disputing that.
24 MR. MORAN: Your Honour --
25 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: He cannot choose for
1 you what you decide to use for your opinion.
2 MR. MORAN: That is true. I want also to
3 show the Trial Chamber, unless Mr. Niemann wants to
4 stipulate to it, that these are the kind of documents
5 that professional historians rely upon in reaching
7 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: That is a different
8 matter. We are speaking about this particular
9 historian, and how he reached his opinion.
10 MR. MORAN: I am doing I think two things.
11 One is, did he rely upon it and secondly, is it the
12 kind of documents that professionals in his field --
13 historians -- rely upon in reaching opinions. If
14 Mr. Niemann is willing to stipulate that it is that,
15 that he relied on them, that they are included in his
16 opinions, then I can stop.
17 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: That is up to him.
18 MR. MORAN: He apparently does not want to,
19 so let me continue, your Honour. As to document A4.
20 MR. NIEMANN: I am prepared to stipulate as
21 long as it is not tendered in evidence as the truth of
22 the contents. I will go further and say that documents
23 -- annexes A through to C, we do not have any
24 particular problems with at all. So, it is the
25 documents that appear in annexe D that we have quite
1 a bit to say about, but up until that point, we have no
2 problems with them either as something that this man
3 relied upon -- which we have never disputed -- or
4 secondly, it is the sort of thing that historians would
5 ordinarily rely on in order to express an opinion.
6 I am not in a position to stipulate to D because I have
7 several arguments about the documents that appear in
8 that category.
9 MR. MORAN: I think we have taken care of A,
10 B and C. Let us go to D.
11 Professor, if you would flip to annex D way
12 at the back of the book, I believe there are 39
13 documents in annex D and we will go through them.
14 The first one, which appears to be on
15 document D1 which starts on page 228 -- it appears to
16 be both a Bosnian version and an English translation of
17 a thing called the Izetbegovic/Gligorov platform -- are
18 you familiar with that document?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Is that the kind of document that historians
21 and people in your profession would rely upon in
22 reaching opinions?
23 A. Yes. They were published in full in the
25 Q. And, in fact, you did rely upon that document
1 in reaching the opinion that is included in your
3 A. Yes.
4 MR. MORAN: Let us go to document D2. That
5 purports to be the declaration of the European
6 Community, recognising Bosnia-Herzegovina, an excerpt
7 from it. Behind it, there seems to be a printed
8 version in English. Is that the kind of document that
9 historians rely upon in reaching opinion -- historians
10 in general -- people in your profession?
11 JUDGE JAN: It is common ground that the
12 European Community recognised it immediately after the
13 referendum of 29 February and 1 March. It is an
14 admitted position.
15 MR. MORAN: Actually, this is dated 6 April
16 -- this document is dated 6 April.
17 JUDGE JAN: Immediately after the
19 A. On 6 April.
20 JUDGE JAN: Bosnia declared itself a
21 Republic in the first week of February -- I think
22 5 February and the European Community recognised it.
23 MR. MORAN: Immediately?
24 A. Yes.
25 MR. MORAN: The only reason I am doing this is
1 because there seems to be some question about whether
2 these are the kind of documents -- annex D are the
3 kinds of documents that historians rely upon in
4 reaching their opinions.
5 JUDGE JAN: Some of these documents you will
6 find in Dr. Calic's report, also.
7 MR. MORAN: That is correct, but Mr. Niemann
8 has not designated which specific documents in annex D
9 he thinks are not the kinds of documents historians
10 rely upon in reaching their opinions, or that this man
11 relied upon in reaching his opinion. Without knowing
12 otherwise, I think I have to go through all 39
14 JUDGE JAN: Almost all of them are public
16 MR. MORAN: Yes, your Honour, I agree with
18 JUDGE JAN: Published in the gazette of
19 Bosnia-Herzegovina -- published there.
20 MR. MORAN: I agree with you 100 per cent.
21 I think that they are clearly the kind of documents
22 that historians would rely upon in reaching opinions,
23 and that this witness relied upon in reaching his
24 opinion as an historian. I think that -- I absolutely
25 agree with you, your Honour. But given the
1 Prosecution's position, I am afraid I have to do this.
2 MR. NIEMANN: I cannot understand why
3 Mr. Moran has to do this. The documents are sought to
4 be tendered by Madam Residovic. Is this some sort of a
5 cooperative effort in an extension of
7 MR. MORAN: Could we go into private session
8 for a second? I want to discuss what we discussed last
9 night in closed session for about two minutes.
10 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Yes, let us go into
11 private session.
12 (In private session)
13 Page 10263 redacted - in private session
13 Page 10264 redacted - in private session
4 [Open session]
5 MR. NIEMANN: I can indicate the ones to
6 which we would want present argument as to why they
7 ought not be admissible. They are Exhibit D21, and all
8 of the documents contained in Exhibit D21 -- not
9 Exhibit D21, document D21; D31; D32; D33; D34; D35;
10 D36; D37; D38; and D39. We are not objecting, but we
11 believe that there has been no foundation laid in terms
12 of the source of documents D8, D10 and D12 to 22. They
13 are not necessarily objected to, that last group, but
14 there is no indication of the source of them at all.
15 If that assists the Chamber, your Honour.
16 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: I suppose this can be
17 established in cross-examination.
18 MR. MORAN: Yes, your Honour. Then I am
19 presuming, if I understood correctly, and I hope the
20 Trial Chamber corrects me if I misunderstood, it seems
21 to be everybody's position that documents 1 through 7,
22 9, 11, 23, 24, 25, and then 26 through 30 are the kinds
23 of documents that historians would normally rely on in
24 reaching their opinions and that this man in fact did
25 do that, and that there is not going to be any
1 objection to those coming in. Did I understand that
2 correctly, your Honour?
3 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: I suppose what the
4 Prosecution is saying -- not only that, all of them --
5 but he is objecting to the source and authority of
6 these other documents which he complains about. Any
7 other document which might have been used could be used
8 for that purpose.
9 MR. MORAN: Let me go through them quickly
10 and see if we can take care of those. Let us start
11 with document D8. The first page of that has number
12 293 on the bottom of it. That purports to be the
13 minutes of the 9th session of the Konjic municipal
14 Parliament. Where did you get those documents,
16 A. It has -- this document has been
17 authenticated, it has the registration number, the
18 stamp of the municipal assembly -- it is an authentic
19 document that one can rely on, in my opinion.
20 Q. It is the kind of document that appears to be
21 authentic -- it does not appear to be a forgery, does
23 A. Yes, yes.
24 Q. It is the kind of document that an historian
25 would rely upon in reaching his opinion -- historians
1 in general?
2 A. These are valuable documents.
3 Q. And you in fact relied upon it in reaching
4 your opinion?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Let us skip to document D10, professor. D10
7 purports to be the conclusions from the joint meeting
8 of the war presidency in Konjic defence force's command
9 dated 18 May 1992. I notice that that has a seal on
10 it, also -- the original in Bosnian. Do you know where
11 this document came from, professor?
12 A. This document is a document I received from
13 the institute, and I think it is authentic, and I used
14 it because it is an invaluable document which can
15 easily be checked -- it is signed by the president of
16 the presidency, with the stamp and date.
17 Q. When you say "the institute", what do you
18 mean by "the institute" -- which institute?
19 A. I mean the Institute for the Investigation of
20 War Crimes -- crimes against humanity and international
21 humanitarian law.
22 Q. And who runs that institute, professor -- who
23 funds it, who pays for it, who is in charge of it?
24 A. It is an institute financed by the State.
25 Q. And it collects documents related to
1 allegations of war crimes and atrocities?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. And the history of the war?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. And it is put together so that historians in
6 future years can go there and see what happened in
7 Bosnia from 1991?
8 A. That is right.
9 Q. And so these documents would be the kind --
10 document D10 would be the kind of document that an
11 historian -- not only today but maybe 100 years from
12 now, would rely upon in reaching an opinion?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. And you in fact relied upon it in reaching
15 your opinions that are contained in your report here;
16 is that correct, doctor?
17 A. Yes, I also believe it to be an authentic
18 document and a very valuable one for future studies.
19 MR. MORAN: And let us go to document number
20 D12. That purports to be the order of the war
21 presidency to Radio Konjic dated 21 May 1992.
22 I notice that -- your Honours, it is page 323
23 in the book. It also has a seal on it?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. And where did you get this document?
1 A. I received this document from the Defence
2 council offices, and I think it is an authentic
4 Q. Why do you think it is an authentic document?
5 A. I think so because I have reviewed several
6 such documents and I have that much experience to be
7 able to tell what is authentic and what is not. This
8 is a document which has all the necessary
9 characteristics of documents of this type that were
10 issued at the time. There is a heading, who is sending
11 it to whom, the registration number, the date, a
12 signature -- it has all the characteristics of an
13 authentic document.
14 Q. And so it is the kind of document that an
15 historian would rely upon in reaching opinions?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. And it is in fact a document you relied upon
18 in reaching your opinions that are contained in the
19 report that has been tendered to the court?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Let us go to document number D13.
22 A. Yes.
23 MR. MORAN: That purports to be the decision
24 on establishment of the commission for the issues of
25 killed, injured and missing persons from the Konjic war
1 presidency, dated 25 May 1992. Do you know where that
2 document came from?
3 MS. RESIDOVIC: Your Honours, may I just
4 comment? This exhibit has already been admitted into
5 evidence and it is a document that the witness was
6 given by the Defence, but it is already included in the
7 evidence -- admitted by this Trial Chamber.
8 JUDGE JAN: As exhibit what -- what is the
9 exhibit number?
10 MS. RESIDOVIC: Through witness Djajic. I am
11 afraid I cannot remember the number, but we will look
12 it up and let you know.
13 MR. MORAN: While they are looking that one
14 up we will skip that one and go to the next one and
15 save some time.
16 Let us go to document D14. That purports to
17 be the conclusions of the war presidency dated 3 June
18 1992. Where did you get that document, professor?
19 A. I got this document, too, from the Defence
20 counsel. And I consider it, too, to be authentic.
21 Q. Does it have the indicia of authenticity for
22 documents that you would normally see in the Bosnian
23 Government -- things like seals and registration
25 A. I hold it to be an authentic document.
1 Q. And that is based on your experience and
2 training in dealing with documents from the Bosnian
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. And this is the kind of document that
6 historians would rely upon in reaching conclusions --
7 A. Yes, yes.
8 Q. And you in fact relied upon it in reaching
9 your conclusions?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. The conclusions that are in your report?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Let us go to D15. That purports to be the
14 order of the war presidency to provide the necessary
15 number of blankets for the prisoners at the Celebici
16 facility, dated 3 June 1992. Where did you get it?
17 A. The next group of documents was also given to
18 me by the Defence counsel and they follow on to the
19 document we have previously discussed, so that all the
20 decisions were typed separately as instructions to
21 certain institutions, which are required to carry out
22 the tasks assigned to them, so that this is nothing new
23 that is being referred to; it is just a specification
24 of the individual tasks for various municipal bodies,
25 so it is nothing new that they contain. If the
1 previous one is admitted, then there is no point in
2 questioning these.
3 Q. I am afraid I have to. So D15 bears the
4 indicia of being an original -- a copy of an authentic
5 Bosnian Government document?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. And this is the kind of document that
8 historians rely upon in reaching opinions and --
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. And you in fact relied upon it in reaching
11 your opinion?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Professor, let us go to D16, which will be on
14 page 339. That is the order of the war presidency to
15 send detainees to medical checks, dated 3 June 1992.
16 Again, does this bear the indicia of reliability, that
17 it shows -- it has got the form that a Bosnian
18 Government document would have?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. And an historian who was handed this document
21 would find it sufficiently reliable to base his
22 opinions, at least in part, on that document?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. And you in fact relied upon that document in
25 reaching your opinions?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Let us go to D17. This purports to be the
3 order of the Konjic war presidency to the Konjic
4 ministry of the interior on the control of vehicles,
5 again dated 3 June 1992. Again, I presume this came
6 from Ms. Residovic's office -- that is how you got it?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. But looking at this document, it bears the
9 indicia of reliability; that is, it looks like what a
10 Bosnian Government document would look like?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. And it has the seals and it has the
13 registration numbers?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. And it has -- for someone who is used to
16 dealing with these documents, they would accept this as
17 an authentic document?
18 A. Yes, yes.
19 Q. And --
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. And an historian could base his opinions on
22 this document?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. And you in fact also did -- you based your
25 opinions at least in part on that?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. D18 purports to be the decision of the Konjic
3 war presidency on the making of a list of civilians in
4 Donje Selo and Bradina and it is dated 3 June. Again,
5 this document came from Ms. Residovic to you?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. And from looking at it and from looking at
8 the registration numbers and the way it is laid out and
9 the signatures and such things, does that appear to you
10 to be an authentic document from the war presidency in
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. And it is the kind of document that a person
14 in your profession would rely upon in reaching
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. And you in fact relied upon it in reaching
18 your opinions that are contained in your report?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. The next one is D19 and that is the decision
21 of the Konjic war presidency on the members, dated 26
22 October 1992. Where did you get this document?
23 A. I received this document, too, from the
24 office of the Defence.
25 Q. And, from looking at the document, it looks
1 like an authentic Bosnian Government document?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. And it has enough indicia of reliability that
4 an historian would rely upon it in reaching an opinion?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. And you in fact relied upon it in reaching
7 your opinion?
8 A. Yes.
9 MR. MORAN: Document D20, that purports to be
10 a BiH army pamphlet on the obligations to respect the
11 rules of war and the Geneva Conventions.
12 MR. NIEMANN: Your Honours, we seem to have
13 skipped a document.
14 MR. MORAN: We have? Which one did we skip?
15 MR. NIEMANN: There seem to be two documents
16 in D19. It starts 349 through to 356.
17 MR. MORAN: Professor, can you go to page 348
18 in the documents? It is a copy of the Bosnian
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Does that appear to be --
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. An authentic Bosnian document?
24 A. Yes.
25 MR. MORAN: If I read you part of an English
1 translation and I will just -- just a couple of lines,
2 could you check it against the Bosnian to make sure we
3 are reading off the same thing. I am going to be
4 reading from page 353 in the book. It starts off:
5 "Dear Sirs, having in mind your duties and
6 responsibility during the war ......"
7 I know that Bosnian is very hard to read.
8 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreters do not
9 have a text, so there might be slight differences.
10 MR. MORAN: I have been informed because we
11 did not provide a text to the interpreters there might
12 be slight differences in translation.
13 The document on 348 and the document on page
14 353 appear to be the same -- just translation --
15 MS. RESIDOVIC: I apologise, your Honours,
16 but I am not getting the interpretation for a couple of
17 minutes now.
18 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Do the interpreters
19 themselves have these documents? I am not sure they
21 MR. MORAN: I was not planning on reading any
22 of them. Apparently what we have is a cover letter
23 followed by a longer letter -- the longer document --
24 I wanted to make sure everybody agreed --
25 JUDGE JAN: It gives the membership of the
1 war presidency.
2 MR. MORAN: Yes, your Honour and then there
3 is a document behind it -- the first is a cover letter,
4 and the second is a decision on who is the war
6 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: That is 349.
7 MR. MORAN: In the Bosnian version it starts
8 off at 349 and runs through page 352. The English
9 translation would be on page 354 and runs to page 356,
10 your Honour.
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Those are the same documents?
13 A. Yes, yes.
14 Q. I believe we were on D20. Just so the record
15 is clear, on annex D, document 19, both the cover
16 letter and the decision appear to be authentic
17 Government documents from the Government of
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. And they bear sufficient indicia of
21 reliability that an historian would rely upon those in
22 reaching his decisions and opinions?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. And you in fact did on yours?
25 A. Yes.
1 JUDGE JAN: This document is dated 26
2 October 1992.
3 MR. MORAN: That is correct, your Honour.
4 Document D20, where did you get that?
5 A. There are several similar documents to --
6 similar to this in the archives. These are the
7 leaflets being handed out to the soldiers in an
8 exercise or in preparation for a particular operation
9 where the soldiers are warned of the Geneva Conventions
10 and respecting them, because our Government issued
11 several orders in that regard and even trained its
12 personnel in order to prevent any kind of violation of
13 international humanitarian law.
14 Q. So these would be handed out to combat troops
15 right before an operation, or people going through some
16 sort of a training programme -- is that where these
17 were used?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. This is the kind of document that a person in
20 your profession would rely upon in reaching opinions?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. You are starting to get used to the questions
23 -- you are anticipating me and you are doing it
24 correctly. You in fact relied upon this document in
25 reaching your opinion?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Let us go to D21. That is the order of the
3 TO defence municipal headquarters and the Croat Council
4 of Defence restricting entrance into the houses of
5 Serbs, plunder of property and cattle, dated 6 June
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Where did you get the Bosnian version?
9 A. I received it from the Defence counsel.
10 Q. Looking at the document as a whole, does it
11 appear to be an authentic document or a copy of an
12 authentic document from the Bosnian Government?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. And it has sufficient marks and indicia of
15 reliability, the way it is laid out and the signatures
16 and everything that an historian would take --
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. -- this document to be an authentic document
19 and rely upon it in arriving at opinions?
20 A. Yes.
21 MR. MORAN: Behind that, there appears to be a
22 second document which somehow apparently was not
23 marked, at least in my copy. It is on page 364. There
24 is another document on page 366, 367, 368, 369, 370,
25 371, 372, 373, 374, 375, 376, 377, 378, 379, 380, 381,
1 382, 383, 384, 385 -- it looks like it goes back
2 through about page 466.
3 MR. NIEMANN: Indeed, there are 130 of them,
4 your Honour, and some of them are totally illegible.
5 None of them are in the English language or the French
6 language. So, I cannot see how we can have any
7 discussion of them until we know what they have to say.
8 THE WITNESS: These are authentic documents,
9 which have been given to us by the Institute for
10 Research of the War Crimes and Violations of
11 Humanitarian Law. They have all been authenticated and
12 they have all been registered, all of these documents,
13 to the last one.
14 MR. MORAN: They are the kinds of
15 documents --
16 THE WITNESS: These are all authentic
18 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Which ones are you
19 discussing now -- authentic documents -- we do not know
20 what kind they are.
21 MR. MORAN: What kind of documents are they?
22 MR. NIEMANN: I object to this. This is
23 highly irregular. We are discussing documents and we
24 have no idea what they are. Counsel knows full well
25 these documents are supposed to be translated into an
1 official language of the Tribunal and made available to
2 the parties. He cannot come here --
3 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Mr. Moran, you cannot
4 defend that. You can see that there is no way of
5 knowing what these documents represent.
6 MR. MORAN: Yes, your Honour. At this point,
7 all I am attempting to prove through this witness --
8 remember, this is not my exhibit, I got this exhibit
10 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: I accept that.
11 MR. MORAN: All I am trying to prove through
12 this witness is that they are the kinds of documents --
13 the basic kinds of documents they are, and his
14 familiarity with them.
15 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Are you really
16 seriously yourself saying that? You do not even know
17 what they are.
18 MR. MORAN: Your Honour, that is correct.
19 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: How can you say that?
20 MR. MORAN: I cannot say they are authentic
21 documents, your Honour. I have absolutely no idea.
22 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Yes. Why do you put up
23 such a proposition to him?
24 MR. MORAN: We will jump ahead to document
25 D22, your Honour, which purports to be the report of
1 the BiH army military police on the transfer of
2 detainees from the Celebici prison into the sports
3 gymnasium prison. The Bosnian version would be on page
4 450 and the English translation is on 451 and 452.
5 THE WITNESS: Let me look for 450 and 451.
6 Very well -- 450 and 452.
7 MR. MORAN: 452 would be the English
8 translation of the Bosnian document in 450.
9 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: This is a continuation
10 -- 450, 452 are the same document.
11 THE WITNESS: Yes.
12 MR. MORAN: In fact the index on this is
13 wrong, is it not -- this is not the report of the BiH
14 army police, but in fact it is a constitutional
15 amendment to the Bosnian constitution; is that not
16 right? It is a decision from the presidency of the
17 Republic of BiH --
18 A. Yes, of the presidency, yes.
19 Q. And it appears to be out of, what, the
20 official gazette?
21 A. Yes, yes. It is a decision on the
22 establishment of a State commission on collecting facts
23 on war crimes.
24 MR. MORAN: And that is the kind of
25 document --
1 MR. NIEMANN: We are not objecting. Our
2 concern was that we could not understand what the index
3 meant in relation to this document. Now that has been
4 clarified, we have no further problems with this
6 MR. MORAN: Let us jump ahead to document
7 D31, which would be on page 509. That purports to be a
8 certification from the Konjic municipality related to a
9 man named Zejnil Delalic. Does that appear to you to
10 be an official document, or a copy of an official
11 document from the Government of Bosnia-Herzegovina?
12 A. This document is authentic.
13 Q. Is it the kind of document --
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. -- that an historian would rely upon?
16 A. (Witness nods head)
17 Q. You have to answer out loud.
18 A. Yes.
19 MR. MORAN: You in fact relied upon it in
20 arriving at your opinions that are contained in your
22 Your Honour, it is on page -- the English is
23 on page 511, your Honours. In fact, what this document
24 says is that there is no record of certain events
25 occurring; is that not what document D31 says?
1 A. It is an authentic document.
2 Q. And you relied upon it in reaching your
3 decisions and your opinions?
4 A. Yes, yes.
5 Q. And it is the kind of thing historians in
6 general would use to write books or articles, to reach
8 A. This is an official source. Therefore, it is
9 based on particular books and certain registries, which
10 are of the official type.
11 Q. And historians rely on those kind of records
12 in reaching opinions?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. And it does not make any difference whether
15 you are an historian from the United States, from
16 Bosnia, from England or Germany or Russia -- wherever
17 -- these are the kinds of documents that --
18 A. No, there is not.
19 Q. -- a trained historian might use?
20 A. That is correct.
21 Q. Let us go to D32, which purports to be a
22 document from the district military court in Mostar
23 dated 16 May 1996. It appears to be a certification
24 from the President of the court -- the chairman of the
25 court, excuse me -- related to a man named Zejnil
1 Delalic. Does the Bosnian original bear the indicia of
3 A. Yes, yes it has.
4 Q. This would be the kind of document -- the
5 kind of public official record that historians would
6 rely upon in reaching their opinions?
7 A. Yes.
8 MR. MORAN: And you in fact relied upon it to
9 reach your opinion that is given in this --
10 MR. NIEMANN: I am just wondering whether
11 Mr. Moran intends to seek to admit this in his own
12 case. That is what he said the basis of these
13 questions are -- this and the other documents that
14 relate to Zejnil Delalic.
15 MR. MORAN: Your Honour, I am not sure what
16 I intend to admit but I sure want to prove them all up
17 before I let this witness go. I cannot prove up the
18 authenticity of these documents and their
19 admissibility, and given that, once this witness has
20 gone, we cannot -- I guess we could get him back but it
21 would be a waste of time if I missed one of these
22 exhibits that I wanted to admit, that there seemed to
23 be some dispute over, and then we would have to send
24 him another plane ticket from Sarajevo and bring him
25 back here and slow the whole process down. At this
1 point all I am doing is proving the admissibility of
2 evidence -- I am not moving it, your Honour.
3 MR. NIEMANN: I would observe, your Honour,
4 that it does not prove the truth of the contents of the
5 document. It merely proves that he relied on it and,
6 as your Honour observed on numerous occasions, if this
7 sort of evidence is to be admitted, then the people who
8 are best competent to admit it should be called to
10 MR. MORAN: May I proceed, your Honour?
11 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Yes.
12 MR. MORAN: Thank you very much.
13 Let us go to D33. That seems to be another
14 document related to a man named Zejnil Delalic from
15 Jablanica. Does that appear to be an official
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. And is it the kind of document that is
19 sufficiently reliable that an historian would rely upon
20 it in reaching an opinion?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. And, in fact, did you rely upon it in
23 reaching an opinion?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Document number 34 purports to be from the
1 Jablanica SDA saying that they do not have a record
2 that someone is a member -- a named individual is a
4 A. I received this from the Defence counsel's
5 office and I believe that it has all the features of an
6 authentic document.
7 Q. I notice just from looking at it that even
8 the SDA Party seals documents and it seems to me that
9 at least in the former Yugoslavia everybody had a seal
10 and they were used much more than they are in my
11 country to authenticate documents; is that correct --
12 every different office has its own seal?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. And that is one of the indicia of
15 reliability, that --
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. And did you rely upon this letter in reaching
18 your opinions?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. And it is the kind of thing that an historian
21 would rely upon?
22 A. Yes, because there is no counter document, or
23 an opposing document, as far as I know.
24 Q. Document number D35 is another letter from
25 the -- it appears to be the Muslim Bosnian cultural
1 circle to Ms. Residovic. This appears to be what it
2 purports to be, does it not -- a letter from the Vienna
3 Community of Democratic Action?
4 A. (Witness nods head)
5 Q. You have to answer.
6 A. Yes, yes.
7 Q. And it is the kind of document that is
8 reliable enough that if an historian would rely upon it
9 in reaching an opinion?
10 A. Yes, yes.
11 Q. The next one is D36, which purports to be an
12 excerpt from the SDA Vienna cultural circle statute.
13 In fact, all that anyone is tendering is an excerpt
14 from that, which is on -- the English version is on
15 page 535 -- that is all anyone is interested in. Does
16 this document, D36, appear to be a document that is
17 sufficiently reliable that an historian would rely upon
18 it in reaching his opinions?
19 A. I do not have all the elements for
20 authentication here. I did not study this document.
21 It only has a title but nobody signed it, nobody
22 registered it -- it is not clear as to when it was
23 recorded and so on.
24 Q. Did you rely upon it in reaching any
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Is that because --
3 A. This was interesting for the expert study,
4 but I did not go into this period very much, so, if
5 needs be, this document can also be eliminated.
6 Q. Okay. Jumping ahead to the next group of
7 documents, which are D37. They appear to be
8 certificates from the secretariat for general
9 administration in Konjic related to --
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. -- people's citizenship?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. If you do not know the answer to this, "I do
14 not know" is a fine answer. In different countries,
15 the evidence that you were born some place or your
16 citizenship is somewhere may come from different
17 Government agencies. I will give you an example. My
18 birth certificate which proves where I was born is kept
19 by the Health Department, but my passport would come
20 from the State Department, our foreign ministry. On
21 the other hand, if someone were a naturalised citizen
22 in my country the records would come from the Justice
23 Department, so there are all various different places.
24 Is this Government organisation the
25 secretariat for general administrative inspection the
1 kind of Government agency that would keep records
2 relating to a person's citizenship and nationality. By
3 "nationality" I do not mean ethnic group; by
4 "nationality" I mean a tie to a State or Government.
5 MR. NIEMANN: Your Honour, I object to the
6 question on the grounds that the document relates to
7 citizenship, not nationality.
8 MR. MORAN: Fine.
9 Is this organisation, the secretariat for
10 general administrative inspection, the kind of
11 Government agency in Bosnia-Herzegovina that would keep
12 official Government records of whether or not a person
13 was a citizen of the Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina?
14 A. The certificates of citizenship are issued by
15 the municipal Governments and one of the agencies there
16 is the general administration department and, to me, it
17 is an authentic document, as such.
18 Q. So, if you went to wherever your citizenship
19 is registered, and wanted a document to prove that you
20 were a citizen of BiH, that you would get a document
21 that looks something like this?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. And there are several of them in here.
24 I would ask you to flip through them. They refer to
25 various people. I will not read their names for
1 several reasons, not the least of which I think at
2 least one of them is a protected witness. If you would
3 look through those documents in those copies, would you
4 tell me if those are -- if they appear to be what they
5 purport to be, that is, documents of citizenship --
6 showing citizenship in the Republic of
8 A. I verified these documents in the Konjic
9 municipality -- I did verify these documents, and
10 I consider them to be authentic documents. I verified
11 them there, in the municipal building.
12 Q. So you went to the municipal building
13 yourself and looked at the original records?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. And, in your opinion, these things are the
16 real McCoy -- the real thing?
17 A. This is it.
18 Q. And are these the kinds of documents that
19 historians in general would rely upon in arriving at
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. And did you rely upon these documents?
23 A. Yes.
24 MR. MORAN: Your Honour, while we are between
25 documents, I think it is 3 minutes to 4. This may be a
1 convenient time to break for half an hour.
2 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Have you got to the
3 last document?
4 MR. MORAN: I will hang in there and get them
5 all done before the break.
6 D38, this purports to be a report of the
7 general hospital in Konjic?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Involving casualties. Where did you get this
11 A. This is a document that the Defence received
12 from the general hospital in Konjic on the number of
13 people who were injured, wounded or killed during the
14 war, who were treated in the hospital -- whether they
15 were brought to the hospital or whatever -- in
16 whichever way they had been brought there, and who were
17 treated there, whether they were civilian or military,
18 including the killed ones, so this is not the total of
19 all casualties in the area -- only those who were
20 processed through the hospital, who in some way were
21 registered there. For instance, a total number of
22 injured civilians and the total number of injured
23 military personnel, and so on.
24 Q. And this looks like the kind of document that
25 a hospital would generate -- would make -- it has the
1 seal, it has again those indicia of reliability?
2 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: He says it was issued
3 to him.
4 MR. MORAN: I thought he said it was -- he
5 got it from the Defence lawyer. I may have misheard.
6 It was issued to you by the hospital?
7 A. No.
8 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: How did you get it?
9 A. I received it from the Defence counsel's
10 office, but I believe it is an authentic document.
11 MR. MORAN: In fact there are some things
12 that you can look at inside the document to aid you in
13 determining whether or not it is authentic, not just
14 the seal but the numbers for instance, the total number
15 of people who were treated, given the other knowledge
16 you have about the Konjic area during the war, would
17 those be reasonable numbers?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. And it would be the kinds of numbers you
20 would expect?
21 A. Yes.
22 MR. MORAN: And, if the numbers were well away
23 from anything you expected, then you would not consider
24 the document reliable; is that right? Maybe I phrased
25 that question badly. Let me try again, okay,
2 If the numbers of wounded reported were much
3 higher or much lower than you would expect --
4 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: I do not know the need
5 for that. Whether he disputes it or not he based his
6 opinion on it.
7 MR. MORAN: Yes, your Honour. I was also
8 trying to get to the reliability of the document. We
9 can skip on to the next one.
10 The last one is document number 39, which
11 appears to be something from the Konjic municipal
12 secretariat for displaced persons. Does that appear to
13 be --
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. -- an authentic document?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. From the Government?
18 A. Yes, yes.
19 Q. Did you rely upon this in reaching your
20 decision, your opinions?
21 A. Yes, yes.
22 Q. And an historian, just in general, who was
23 presented with this document, would he rely upon it in
24 reaching his opinion?
25 A. Yes, yes.
1 MR. MORAN: Your Honour, I have a few more
2 questions, but I think I have got to the end of this
3 book. This may be an appropriate time.
4 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: I think we will rise
5 now and return at 4.30.
6 -- recess taken at 4.03 p.m.
8 -- on resuming at 4.32 p.m.
9 MR. MORAN: While the witness is coming in,
10 your Honour, there seemed to be some question about at
11 least two of the documents -- I think the Prosecution
12 questioned their authenticity. The two I am thinking
13 about right off the bat are D13 and D19, the ones that
14 are in this as documents D13 and D19. D13 as
15 I understand it is a document which was seized at
16 INDA-BAU and was D71/1. Document D19, where the
17 Prosecutor also questioned the authenticity, has
18 previously been introduced into evidence as Prosecution
19 Exhibit 72.
20 MS. RESIDOVIC: Your Honours --
21 MR. MORAN: As to Prosecution Exhibit 72,
22 I will not vouch for its authenticity. I will let
23 Mr. Niemann do that.
24 (The witness entered court)
25 MS. RESIDOVIC: Your Honours, there was a
1 minor confusion. I asked my colleague, Tom, to comment
2 on D13. It has already been admitted into evidence as
3 D71/1 through Fadil Zebic. It is not a document coming
4 from INDA-BAU, whereas D19 has been admitted as
5 Prosecution Exhibit 72 through the witness Dr. Calic.
6 MR. MORAN: I stand corrected, your Honour,
7 as to D13. I must have must understood and I apologise
8 to the court for any misunderstanding I may have had.
9 I thank Ms. Residovic for correcting me.
10 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Thank you very much.
11 I think the witness is now in the stand, so you can
12 continue with him.
13 MR. MORAN: Professor, a couple of other
14 things and I will direct your attention to a series of
15 documents, starting at D31, and running through
16 I believe D35. I may have some more beyond that.
17 These, on their face, purport to be documents provided
18 by officials of the Government of Bosnia-Herzegovina to
19 Ms. Residovic at her request. Page 510 is the first
20 one, professor. We will just start at that one and use
21 that one for an example and I will go through the
22 others very, very quickly.
23 Professor, I am going to give you an example
24 from my country and see if you know the answer to this
25 and, if you do, fine and if you do not, that is fine,
1 too. It is possible, in my country, to go to a
2 Government agency and say, "Has Tom Moran ever been
3 convicted of a crime?" So, for instance, I could go,
4 or you could go to the court clerk's office in my home
5 county and, for the grand total I think of $5 get a
6 letter addressed to you, saying that the district clerk
7 had searched the records and found that I have never
8 been convicted -- no record that I have ever been
9 convicted of a crime. They would seal it. That would
10 be an official record of the court. Can you do that
11 kind of thing in Bosnia, go to a court clerk, or a
12 Government official and say, "We have searched our
13 records and we do not find a record of this."
14 A. Yes, one can obtain such a document.
15 Q. And basically what it is, it is a certificate
16 from the Government custodian of records that certain
17 records do not exist?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. And so, for instance, on D31, which we just
20 looked at, it says that there is no records of
21 Mr. Delalic occupying any position in the Government of
22 Konjic in 1992. That does not mean that he did not --
23 that just means there is no record of it; right?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. And the next one, D32, appears to be a
1 certificate from the district military court in Mostar
2 that there are no criminal records in that court
3 involving a man named Zejnil Delalic?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. And the next one, which would be D33, is from
6 the Mostar security police, Konjic police station,
7 saying that they have no criminal records involving a
8 man named Zejnil Delalic?
9 A. Yes.
10 MR. MORAN: And those would be the kinds of
11 things that anybody could go in and pay, whatever the
12 fee is -- whatever the set fee is and get it on
13 anybody. Let me phrase that a little clearer. You
14 could go into the clerk's office in the court in my
15 home town and, for $5, get a letter from the clerk --
16 MR. NIEMANN: I object. I do not think the
17 witness has shown any evidence at all that he knows
18 anything about the United States or the practice there
19 in relation to the issue of certificates.
20 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: I suppose this is
21 merely using it as a comparison.
22 MR. MORAN: That is correct.
23 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: What is the purpose of
25 MR. MORAN: The Prosecutor has had some
1 objection to these documents based on the fact that
2 they are addressed to Ms. Residovic and I am just
3 trying to show through this witness that these are the
4 kinds of documents that anybody can get from the
5 appropriate Government official saying that records do
6 not exist. It is irrelevant whether they are addressed
7 to Ms. Residovic or Mr. Niemann or --
8 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: I suppose what the
9 Prosecutor is saying, you might have got such documents
10 from her and he might have based his opinion on them,
11 but the fact whether the contents are true is a
12 different matter, which he is not prepared to argue.
13 That is a different matter.
14 MR. MORAN: What I am trying to prove up is
15 that these kinds of documents showing the lack of a
16 public record, or a business record -- the next one
17 I have is a record of a business -- that those kinds of
18 records or documents are commonly available and that
19 these appear to be documents that show the custodian of
20 records searched for records and could not find them.
21 We will use this one as an example. The next
22 one is D34, of which the Bosnian version is on page
23 519. It appears to be a certificate under seal from
24 the SDA Party that a man named Zejnil Delalic is not a
25 former member of the Party, has not been elected to the
1 Party -- there are no records of that. Things other
2 than governments, like businesses in
3 Bosnia-Herzegovina, do they commonly give certificates
4 that, "We have searched our business records and we
5 find no record of so and so," whoever it is?
6 A. I do not know about that, because I am not a
7 member of the Party and I never asked for such
8 certificates, so I do not know.
9 MR. MORAN: Professor, I do not know -- unlike
10 one of your exams in your classes, "I do not know" can
11 be a very proper answer in a courtroom, if you do not
13 At this point I will pass the witness and
14 I thank the court very much for its indulgence.
15 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Any other
16 cross-examination by Defence counsel?
17 MR. OLUJIC: Yes, your Honours, may it please
18 the court.
19 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: You may proceed.
20 Cross-examined by MR. OLUJIC
21 Q. Thank you, your Honours.
22 Good afternoon, professor.
23 A. Good afternoon.
24 Q. My name is Zeljko Olujic. I am Defence
25 counsel for Mr. Zdravko Mucic. We will not take long.
1 You must be tired by now, but let us just clear up a
2 few points that emerge from your testimony before this
3 honourable court.
4 You spoke about the escalation of the crisis
5 in SFRY, so I should like us to clear up something that
6 cannot be seen from your written report or from your
7 oral testimony in court. Who had the majority in
8 Kosovo in 1988, could you clear that up a little?
9 JUDGE JAN: Kosovo?
10 A. The Albanians are in a majority in Kosovo --
11 90 per cent.
12 MR. OLUJIC: Would you agree that Milosevic's
13 gain of control over Kosovo, Montenegro and Vojvodina
14 resulted in fundamental legal and political changes,
15 but that it had repercussions throughout the territory
16 of the former Yugoslavia, could we say that?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Tell us, professor, who was the BiH
19 representative in the presidency of Yugoslavia by
21 A. He was a Serb.
22 Q. Regarding the culmination of the crisis, as
23 you described it in your statement, could you explain
24 the emergence of the Serbian Radical Party led by
25 Vojslov Seselj with a little more detail?
1 A. The role of the Radical Party of Vojslov
2 Seselj, which was based in Ruma and in Belgrade, was
3 one of the elements of the policy of Slobodan
4 Milosevic. He sought, through such radical elements,
5 to interfere in the crisis in Bosnia, to radicalise
6 elements in Bosnia, to send paramilitary formations
7 there. Arkan and his men played a similar role .
8 Q. Tell us, professor, regarding the Serbian
9 paramilitary organisations, they existed in
10 Bosnia-Herzegovina, but can we say that they existed in
11 Kosovo, Serbia, Montenegro, and in the Republic of
13 A. Yes, correct. If I am not mistaken I said in
14 my testimony that they existed in the Knin, Krajina, in
15 Eastern Slovonia, in Western Srem and in Baranje, this
16 encouragement of radical tendencies.
17 Q. One further point, professor, regarding the
18 chapter dealing with the influence of neighbouring
19 States on the events in Bosnia-Herzegovina, could you
20 tell us who was the first in the world to recognise
22 A. The European Union.
23 Q. After that, among the States?
24 A. The United States of America and the Republic
25 of Croatia.
1 MR. OLUJIC: Thank you, your Honours, I have
2 no further questions. Thank you, professor.
3 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Thank you very much
4 Mr. Olujic. Any cross-examination?
5 MS. BOLER: No questions, your Honour.
6 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Mr. Prosecutor, have you
7 any cross-examination?
8 Cross-examined by MR. NIEMANN
9 Q. Professor, in your report at page 14, and
10 I have the English version of it only, so I am not sure
11 that the -- if your version is in English or in
12 Bosniak, but perhaps you might take the report?
13 A. I do not have either version.
14 Q. Perhaps you might be given your version of
15 the report. (Handed)
16 Is your version in the English language,
18 A. No, I have it also in Serbo-Croatian.
19 Q. Do you read English, professor, or do you
20 only read Serbo-Croatian?
21 A. No, I do not.
22 MR. NIEMANN: On page 14, the first paragraph
23 -- the first full paragraph -- starts, "as an answer
24 the Serb representatives in the Parliament".
25 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: You may start by
1 reminding him of the heading -- I think that is a
3 MR. NIEMANN: It is under (b), "Development
4 of the Situation in Bosnia-Herzegovina after the
5 Election in 1990" -- thank you, your Honour.
6 Then, on page 14, in the English version, "As
7 an answer the Serb representatives in the Parliament of
8 Bosnia-Herzegovina" -- do you see that paragraph?
9 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: The second paragraph on
11 THE WITNESS: Unfortunately, page 14 of my
12 document does not seem to be what you are talking
14 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: That is why we preferred
15 using the title heading.
16 THE WITNESS: The difference, the culmination
17 of the crisis.
18 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Go to, "The Political
19 Processes in Bosnia-Herzegovina from 1990 to 1992."
20 THE WITNESS: Yes.
21 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: (b), "Development of
22 the Situation in BiH after elections 1990". It is from
23 there that you can trace it to the second paragraph.
24 THE WITNESS: Yes.
25 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: You can take over from
2 THE WITNESS: At the first free elections?
3 MR. NIEMANN: Yes, this is the tenth
4 paragraph in my English version. I have not been given
5 a Serbo-Croat version -- not that I could read it
6 anyway, but I cannot assist by going to that. Perhaps
7 I can come at it another way, rather than showing you a
8 report. In my version it says:
9 "As an answer the Serb representatives in the
10 Parliament of Bosnia-Herzegovina founded the assembly
11 of Serb people in Bosnia and Herzegovina on
12 24 November."
13 The date 24 November, can you help me with
14 where you got that date from?
15 A. It says 24 October.
16 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: November here.
17 JUDGE JAN: I think it is a mis-translation.
18 MR. NIEMANN: "November" has been
19 mis-translated, thank you.
20 Going into the next section, do you see the
21 heading, (c), "International Recognition of Bosnia and
22 Herzegovina" and then there is seven paragraphs and
23 then you mention the Ram Plan. You say:
24 "In media there were pieces of information
25 about the Ram Plan by which the State and military
2 Et cetera. Do you see that?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Professor, have you ever seen the Ram Plan?
5 A. No.
6 Q. Do you know of anyone who has actually
7 studied it or produced any material on it?
8 A. This Ram Plan figured in the press and its
9 borders, its frameworks were mentioned, but
10 I personally have not seen the original text.
11 Q. Do you know of anyone who has?
12 A. I do not know. I know quite a number of
13 people from -- even some people from the general staff
14 -- the former general staff, but I did not have
15 occasion to discuss this with them, because these are
16 people who have left the army a long time ago, so
17 I could not really testify to the effect that I know
18 exactly what the Ram Plan envisaged, though it was
19 referred to in the press and even in some books,
20 according to which this Ram Plan was a programme of
21 Greater Serbia, which was to be achieved and the
22 border, which went as far as Karlobag, Virovitica,
23 Karlovac, that that actually was that plan, covering
24 the Serbian people in Yugoslav territories and in fact
25 this is an old programme designed for the creation of
1 Greater Serbia and it is almost 200 years old.
2 MR. NIEMANN: This is something that you
3 acquired from looking at the media reports.
4 JUDGE JAN: That is what he says.
5 THE WITNESS: Yes. But it reflects the
6 historical territory that the Serbs claimed for their
7 land, for their State.
8 MR. NIEMANN: You mention further on, four
9 paragraphs down from there, you make mention to the
10 proclamation of the referendum results by President
11 Izetbegovic and then you say on the 4 April the
12 European Community recognised Bosnia, et cetera. Are
13 you saying there that, in your opinion, that is when
14 Bosnia became an independent sovereign State, or are
15 you not saying that?
16 A. Bosnia -- not when the referendum was held
17 but when it was internationally recognised and it was
18 internationally recognised on 6 March. President
19 Izetbegovic asked the international community to
20 recognise the sovereignty and independence of
21 Bosnia-Herzegovina. A month after that, that is, on 6
22 April, the European Community actually recognised it --
23 the independence of Bosnia-Herzegovina, and that is the
24 independence day which Bosnia-Herzegovina is
25 celebrating to this day, and the following day it was
1 recognised by the United States of America and the
2 Republic of Croatia and then other States followed.
3 Today, there are more than 200 that have recognised
5 Q. Moving on to the next paragraph, paragraph
6 (d), "Beginning of War Operations against the Republic
7 of Bosnia-Herzegovina," and the second to last
8 paragraph in that section there, you speak of the
9 transformation of the JNA in the territory of
10 Bosnia-Herzegovina in mid May; do you see that section?
11 A. This change brought about nothing --
12 Q. That is right.
13 A. Middle of May, middle of May?
14 Q. Yes?
15 A. The middle of May the JNA was transformed
16 into the territory of Bosnia-Herzegovina. On 27 April,
17 the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia was proclaimed and
18 it recognised the army, which was in Bosnia, to be its
19 proper army. However, since then, the soldiers who
20 were born in Bosnia but served in the JNA, were
21 transferred to the army of the Republika Srpska, so,
22 according to the testimony of General Kadijevic,
23 between 60,000 and 80,000, and according to the
24 commander of the second military district, General
25 Kukanjac --
1 Q. Perhaps I could stop you for a moment,
2 because my question is a very short one. I do not want
3 you to recite the whole history of that. I really want
4 you to tell me, in your opinion, what was the impetus
5 that brought about that transformation -- why did it
6 take place -- that is all I want to know?
7 A. This came about because, at that time, this
8 army had to withdraw from Bosnia-Herzegovina. The
9 United Nations called for its withdrawal and then only
10 the soldiers who were born in Bosnia-Herzegovina stayed
12 Q. That is your answer?
13 A. Yes, that is my answer.
14 Q. Further in your report, and under the heading
15 (f), "Measures and Activities of the Legal Power,
16 Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina"?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. It is the ninth paragraph of that report, you
19 talk about the problems of printing and distributing
20 the official gazettes in which the laws and provisions
21 were published; do you see that?
22 A. (Witness nods head) Yes, I do see.
23 Q. You also make reference to the constitutional
24 court intervening with a decision that the laws would
25 be applied from the moment they were delivered. I just
1 ask you, professor, some of these laws were printed and
2 distributed very late, were they not, in 1992 -- in
3 some cases, they were several months in getting out
4 because of the siege of Sarajevo that was going on?
5 A. Yes. But I included in the material a
6 report, which concerns this problem, where the
7 constitutional court asked for an explanation, that is,
8 the official gazette was asked why these laws are being
9 delayed, why their publishing was being delayed and the
10 difficulties were of a different nature. On the one
11 hand --
12 Q. In those cases?
13 A. -- it was impossible to print, so the
14 printing itself was a problem. There was a problem of
15 procuring paper, a problem of electric power, different
16 kinds of shortages and problems that could not be
17 solved, so that the official gazette was late -- either
18 30 days because of certain reasons, three months
19 because of different other reasons, and these copies
20 were arriving very late and different methods were used
21 for them to be brought out of Sarajevo. At one point,
22 they were printed in Zenica and so on, so different
23 methods were used in order to get the official gazette
24 through to the institutions which were supposed to get
25 them. So, there were major problems there and there
1 were delays, even of several months.
2 Q. In those cases, the municipality would have
3 either had to operate under old law, or to improvise
4 and function as best it could -- would you agree with
6 A. That is correct.
7 Q. Indeed, I think you go on in the next
8 paragraph to say that the problem was even further
9 exacerbated by the communication difficulties from
10 particularly Sarajevo to the municipal regions?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Indeed, it would be true to say, would it
13 not, professor, that, in some areas, in the early
14 stages, the municipal authority was the only available
15 authority to deal effectively with the whole range of
16 matters that confronted the municipality, including
17 military matters?
18 A. I believe that the military communications
19 are something else and I think that they should be
20 distinguished from the distribution of the official
22 Q. Professor, why then, on page -- my page 23,
23 under the heading (5), "Organisation of Civil
24 Authorities in the Konjic Municipality", (a),
25 "Peacetime Authorities", you see a reference there:
1 "Along with passing regulations, municipal
2 assembly had a very important role in regard to
3 appointing municipal leading officials."
4 Et cetera. Then you say:
5 "The officers in the municipal bodies,
6 magistrates and commander of the OSTO."
7 Or the municipal Territorial Defence
8 headquarters -- that is a military matter, is it not?
9 A. I apologise, I did not follow you, I could
10 not find the text. I do not know what it is about.
11 Could you please repeat it?
12 Q. By all means. You were saying --
13 A. What is the title, by the way?
14 Q. It is called heading (5), "Organisation of
15 Civil Authorities in the Konjic Municipality" and
16 then, "Peacetime Authorities Organisations"?
17 A. Right.
18 Q. It is true, is it not, that you say there --
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. -- that the commander of the municipal
21 Territorial Defence is appointed by the municipal
23 A. No. He is proposed by them, but further on
24 it states that he is confirmed by the republic.
25 MR. NIEMANN: Are you saying that my
1 translation is wrong, that it does not say that, "along
2 with the passing of regulations, the municipal
3 assembly," et cetera, "had a role in regard to
4 appointing" and then it mentions a number of bodies and
5 then it says, "the commander of the municipal
6 Territorial Defence and the commander of the municipal
7 headquarters of civil protection and others" -- is my
8 translation wrong there, is it?
9 MS. RESIDOVIC: Your Honours, I object. This
10 relates to the peacetime circumstances and this is what
11 I see both in the original and in the translation.
12 There is another heading, another chapter, which
13 discusses these issues in wartime circumstances.
14 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Do you not think that
15 the expert can handle that himself? It is a simple
17 THE WITNESS: This was only in March and
18 April. What I provided in my chart for the
19 organisational structure of the authority was only for
20 March and April, that the municipal assembly is in
21 charge of appointing the military personnel, whereas,
22 later on, it is moved to the republican authorities.
23 MR. NIEMANN: When you say "later on",
24 perhaps you might help us with the time. Are you
25 saying that the municipal authorities, if I may call
1 them that, did not appoint the commander of the TOs, is
2 that what you are saying?
3 A. Yes, not then.
4 Q. When was that, when did they cease to appoint
5 the commanders of the TO?
6 A. They stopped appointing the commander of the
7 Territorial Defence when the old Territorial Defence
8 ceased to exist and the new Territorial Defence was
9 established. That is the Territorial Defence of
10 Bosnia-Herzegovina. At that time, the municipal staff
11 of the Territorial Defence -- and the general staff of
12 the Territorial Defence was established and this was
13 later transformed into the army of Bosnia-Herzegovina,
14 so this was valid for a very short period of time. It
15 was valid only in the beginning. However, later on, it
16 becomes part of the republican staff for the
17 Territorial Defence authority.
18 Q. I might come back to that in a moment.
19 Going on to page 25, under paragraph (6),
20 "Plans and Activities of the SDS" et cetera, the first
21 paragraph there, you say that:
22 "The local Serbs counted on a very important
23 support of the Yugoslav People's Army and they assumed
24 that central SDS bodies in Bosnia-Herzegovina would
25 help them."
1 It is true, is it not, that many of the Serb
2 people regarded the JNA as their legitimate army -- as
3 the legitimate army?
4 A. I am sorry, but there is a discrepancy
5 between -- okay, the activities of the Serbian
6 Democratic Party is the activity of the SDS at the
7 beginning of the war -- is that the heading that you
8 are looking at?
9 Q. Yes, do you want me to repeat my question?
10 A. Yes, please.
11 Q. What I am saying to you is that many of the
12 local Serbs went further than just relying on the
13 support of the Yugoslav People's Army -- many of them
14 in fact regarded it as their legal, legitimate army,
15 did they not?
16 A. Yes -- while they were arming it.
17 Q. And, in a similar vein, they considered the
18 territory that they occupied as part of either a
19 federation of the old Socialist Federal Republic of
20 Yugoslavia or as part of Greater Serbia, did they not?
21 A. No, they were still within Bosnia-Herzegovina
22 -- they were still not talking about a Greater Serbia
23 -- they were still in Yugoslavia, so they were playing
24 a double game. They were for a long time within the
25 institutions of the whole system, but secretly they
1 were working on organising their own power and to
2 protect their own interests, so a question phrased in
3 this way is partial and it would require a lengthier
5 MR. NIEMANN: It is an important matter,
6 professor, so if you think that you need to give a
7 lengthier answer, please do.
8 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: If you expanded your
9 question properly -- whether their wish is merely an
10 intention or they were actually demonstrating
11 sufficient activity to justify the fact that they
12 preferred a Greater Serbia.
13 MR. NIEMANN: Yes. My question was directed
14 perhaps to a slightly different issue, your Honour, but
15 I will ask the question perhaps again, but in a
16 slightly different way.
17 My question, professor, is that many of the
18 local Serbs considered themselves either to be part of
19 the Socialist Federal Republic of Yugoslavia, or,
20 failing that, that their territory was part of Greater
22 A. What I say here is that the Serbs do not talk
23 openly of a Greater Serbia -- they are talking about
24 the organisation of power within Bosnia-Herzegovina and
25 they want to join Serbia. That is their goal. What
1 kind of a State that will be, whether that would be
2 Yugoslavia, Greater Serbia, in the final analysis it
3 would be a Greater Serbia, just as the others wanted,
4 as these autonomous districts in Croatia wanted. It
5 was a similar case to that in Bosnia-Herzegovina -- a
6 whole system of power is being built there and they are
7 trying to build a position in Bosnia, because they were
8 aware that they could not change the decision on the
9 independence of Bosnia-Herzegovina, which was adopted
10 in April and that the borders can only be changed by
11 means of war, so this war started and it was not -- and
12 what they wanted to achieve was not possible without a
13 war, so that is the crux of the problem.
14 MR. NIEMANN: I am aware of that, professor.
15 I do not want to cut you off, but the point that I am
16 getting to was that not what you would say was the
17 legal reality in terms of borders. I am asking you
18 questions about what the intention of the Serbian --
19 local Serbian people was, particularly in the Konjic
20 municipality -- sorry, I withdraw that -- the local
21 Serbian people in Bosnia was -- not all of them, but
22 some of them. Perhaps I can assist you. What other
23 meaning can be given to that than what you say in the
24 last paragraph of the section (a), "Activities of the
25 SDS Before the Attack Against the Republic of
1 Bosnia-Herzegovina" -- and that is on page 27, if your
2 Honours please -- where you say:
3 "The SDS intention to divide the Konjic
4 municipality and to include the area called the Serb
5 Konjic municipality into the Greater Serbia project was
6 acknowledged in the form of an official document by the
7 above mentioned decision."
8 What else could you mean by that?
9 A. My apologies, but again I am unable to find
10 this. I believe that our different copies are
11 completely differently numbered, so could you please
12 maybe point me to the heading again and then ask your
13 question again?
14 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Paragraph 6, the last
15 paragraph in 6 before you get to (b) -- the last
16 paragraph. (6) is, "Plans and Activities of the SDS
17 Before and at the Beginning of the War in 1992". Then,
18 before you get to (b), the last paragraph.
19 THE WITNESS: "By this decision and the SDS
20 is trying to divide the territory of the municipality
21 of Konjic and annex it to the Serb republic" -- is
22 that --
23 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: That paragraph, yes.
24 THE WITNESS: Could you please restate your
1 MR. NIEMANN: Is that not an expression of
2 an intention by the local Serbian people to be part of
3 Greater Serbia?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. It is a fact, is it not, professor, that the
6 JNA armed many of the Serbian people?
7 A. Is this a question?
8 Q. Yes.
9 A. Yes, it is a fact.
10 Q. And that happened not only -- and that
11 happened in places such as Konjic as well as other
12 parts of Bosnia-Herzegovina?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. And, in fact, there was very direct contact
15 and relationship between the local Serbian people --
16 some of the local Serbian people -- and the JNA?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Professor, I wish to move on to the next
19 section, which is paragraph (7), "The Plans and
20 Activities of the HDZ" et cetera and I will ask you
21 some questions about that, if I may. What was the
22 State or Republic of origin of the HDZ?
23 A. The HDZ of Bosnia-Herzegovina, but there was
24 also the HDZ as a national ruling Party in Croatia that
25 won the elections there -- it has the same name. But,
1 in Bosnia-Herzegovina, the HDZ started not as a branch
2 but as the HDZ of Bosnia-Herzegovina. It is a Party of
3 the Croats of Bosnia-Herzegovina.
4 Q. And the HVO is the military arm of the HDZ;
5 is that right?
6 A. The HVO was not the military arm of the HDZ;
7 it is the military and civilian factor of authority of
8 the Croatian Community of Herceg-Bosna, which, again,
9 was organised under the leadership of the HDZ.
10 Q. Was it legal under the constitution of
11 Bosnia-Herzegovina at the time for political parties or
12 communities to have their own armies?
13 A. No. The legal authorities and the Parliament
14 of Bosnia proclaimed both paramilitary formations that
15 were illegal and unconstitutional.
16 Q. And so --
17 A. First, the Republika Srpska on which the
18 Parliament passed a decision and the constitutional
19 court proclaimed that the decisions taken by the
20 Croatian Community of Herceg-Bosna on 19 November 1991
21 and on 3 July 1992 were unconstitutional and nine such
22 documents were specified and they were proclaimed to be
23 unlawful, unconstitutional, but the Bosnian authorities
24 did not take any steps to remedy the situation that had
25 occurred with the foundation of the Croatian Community
1 of Herceg-Bosna. Why? Because the legal authorities
2 were under very heavy pressure of the combat against
3 the Serbs and they did not wish to open up a second
4 front. That is one reason.
5 A second is that Croatia was among the first
6 to recognise Bosnia-Herzegovina; it accepted refugees
7 from Bosnia-Herzegovina; and we had to rely on Croatia
8 if we wanted to receive humanitarian aid, food, or
9 armament -- we had to rely on Croatia. The legal
10 authorities did not wish to engage in a conflict with
11 the HVO, or Herceg-Bosna, or with the HDZ.
12 Q. But the expediency and perhaps justifiable
13 expediency of not taking action against military or
14 paramilitary organisations such as the HVO did not
15 affect the question of its illegality -- am I right in
17 A. The HVO and the Croatian Community of
18 Herceg-Bosna continued to exist via facti -- in fact --
19 but things will change when the first conflicts start
20 and those were those that affected Konjic, the attack
21 on Prozor, and that was when the situation became very
22 strained between the HVO and the legal authorities in
23 Konjic, and this would later, in 1993, lead to a
24 conflict between the HVO and the BiH Army, which,
25 again, would be an extremely difficult problem for the
1 legal authorities and for the Defence of
3 MR. NIEMANN: Is that a convenient time,
4 your Honour?
5 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: We might adjourn and
6 start at 10 o'clock tomorrow morning.
11 --- Whereupon the matter adjourned at
12 5.30 p.m., to be reconvened on Wednesday,
13 the 1st day of April 1998, at 10 a.m.