Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 10975

1 Tuesday,, 14th April 1998

2 (10.45am)

3 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Good morning, ladies

4 and gentlemen. I am pleased to be here after a short

5 Easter break. It is a little refreshing. May we have

6 the appearances, please?

7 MR. NIEMANN: Good morning, your Honours. My

8 name is Niemann and I appear with my colleagues,

9 Ms. McHenry, Mr. Turone and Ms. Udo for the Prosecution.

10 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Could we have

11 appearances for the Defence, please?

12 MS. RESIDOVIC: Good morning, your Honours.

13 My name is Edina Residovic, Defence counsel for

14 Mr. Zejnil Delalic, along with my colleague, Eugene

15 O'Sullivan, professor from Canada

16 MR. OLUJIC: Good morning, your Honours. My

17 name is Zeljko Olujic, Defence attorney from Croatia,

18 appearing on behalf of Mr. Zdravko Mucic, along with my

19 colleague, Mr. Michael Greaves from the United Kingdom.

20 MR. KARABDIC: Good morning, your Honours.

21 I am Salih Karabdic, attorney from Sarajevo, appearing

22 on behalf of Mr. Hazim Delic, along with Mr. Thomas

23 Moran, attorney from Houston, Texas.

24 MS. McMURREY: Good morning, your Honours.

25 I am Cynthia McMurrey and I represent Esad Landzo,

Page 10976

1 along with Ms. Nancy Boler, from the United States

2 MS. RESIDOVIC: Your Honours, may I be

3 allowed to address the court before the witness is

4 brought into the courtroom?

5 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: May we know the subject

6 matter of such an address, because cross-examination is

7 still continuing?

8 MS. RESIDOVIC: Yes, your Honours, it is

9 linked to that and to a number of errors that have

10 occurred during the cross-examination, in connection

11 with which I should like to give my explanations.

12 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Please, let us have the

13 cross-examination continue. If you have any objection

14 as to any particular cross-examination, you can raise

15 that. You do not have to make addresses in between the

16 activities of the cross-examination, which may not in

17 any event be related. So, let us have the witness. If

18 you have any reasons why you should object to

19 cross-examination, we will hear that.

20 MS. RESIDOVIC: Thank you, your Honours.

21 I will ask for your indulgence later on.

22 (The witness entered court)

23 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Remind the witness he

24 is still under oath.

25 THE REGISTRAR: I remind you, Sir, that you

Page 10977

1 are still under oath.

2 THE WITNESS: I understand.

3 MUHAMED VEJZAGIC (continued)

4 Cross-examined by MR. NIEMANN (continued)

5 Q. Brigadier, on the last occasion when we were

6 -- when I was asking you some questions, I asked that

7 you be shown a document marked 193.

8 Perhaps that might be given to the Brigadier

9 again. I believe I have some additional copies of that

10 for your Honours (Handed).

11 Brigadier, this document marked number 193,

12 have you ever seen this before?

13 A. No.

14 Q. Do you notice at the top of the document

15 there is a reference to a number and then a date in the

16 first paragraph. Do you see the number and date that

17 appears there?

18 A. I do.

19 Q. Do you know what those numbers and dates

20 relate to, by any chance?

21 A. The number I do not know and the date refers

22 to the date the document was issued.

23 Q. The date of the document with the number,

24 yes, I see, but it does not relate to this particular

25 document?

Page 10978

1 I think I may have confused you. Let me try

2 and clarify it for you. I am not talking about the

3 number and date that appears on this particular

4 document; I am talking about the number and date that

5 appears in the body of the document in the first

6 paragraph, where it says, "Pursuant to the appointment

7 of the main command of the armed forces of BiH number"

8 and then "of 11/07/1992" -- it is the BiH number

9 02/349-343 11/7/1992, that is the document. I am

10 asking you, do you know what that relates to -- if you

11 do not, it does not matter -- the date?

12 A. The date given is 11 July 1992, linked to the

13 document, that is the date when that document was

14 issued.

15 Q. My question is, do you know what that

16 document is?

17 A. The document mentioned here is the staff of

18 the supreme command of 11 July when Mr. Delalic was

19 appointed commander of Tactical Group 1.

20 Q. Thank you, yes. Now, would you look at this

21 document that I show you?

22 A. May I just make an additional explanation?

23 This refers to Tactical Group 1, Konjic. In the order

24 issued on 11 July, there is no reference to Tactical

25 Group 1, Konjic, but only to Tactical Group 1, so here

Page 10979

1 we see something new. When we talk about appointments

2 to various functions, there are too many here for a

3 Tactical Group, that is one point I would like to

4 make. We have the orders of the supreme command with

5 reference to the Operation Jug, "South"; there are far

6 fewer people even though the operation is more

7 complicated and the command itself is more complex.

8 Here, I do not see the person who was chief of staff at

9 the time, so I do not see the chief of staff who was

10 the chief of staff from the very first day the TG1 was

11 formed, so I do not see that name here.

12 MR. NIEMANN: Thank you for those

13 observations. The next document I wanted you to look

14 at -- that should be given the next number.

15 THE REGISTRAR: Prosecution document number

16 230.

17 MR. NIEMANN: Again, this document of

18 1 August 1992, have you seen this one before?

19 A. It is an appointment for administrative

20 affairs, office work. I think I do have such a

21 document as far as I can recall -- I am not quite sure,

22 but I think so.

23 Q. You believe that you have seen it before?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. It was not included among your material, but

Page 10980

1 it is a document that you consider to be a valid

2 document, do you?

3 A. I cannot assert as a handwriting expert,

4 because I am not an expert for handwriting, whether

5 this is Mr. Delalic's signature or not. I just see the

6 appointment for a Ms.. Nermina Bukvic or something like

7 that -- the copy is a bad one, so I cannot quite read

8 it -- Habiba Bukvic, I see.

9 Q. It has the stamp and other indicia of

10 reliability attached to it, does it not?

11 A. No, you cannot see the stamp -- it is black

12 ink and you cannot tell what type of stamp was used.

13 MR. NIEMANN: Might that be marked for

14 identification, if your Honours please?

15 Brigadier, when was Mr. Delalic appointed

16 commander of Tactical Group 1?

17 A. On 11 July 1992.

18 Q. We have seen in your documents, and you do

19 not need to go to them unless you want to, but in your

20 documents marked 64 and 65, the two appointments of

21 Mr. Delalic, respectively of 11 July 1992 and 27 July

22 1992, both signed by Sefer Halilovic, you would agree

23 with me that both documents are valid, would you not?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. And you would agree with me that the

Page 10981

1 commander of Celebici complex, when it was run as a

2 prison, was part of the Bosnian army and thus under the

3 authority of the supreme command?

4 A. You did not mention a name -- I do not know

5 who you are referring to.

6 Q. Perhaps you might tell us that. Who do you

7 consider was the commander of Celebici camp?

8 A. According to the research I did, I would not

9 call it a "camp" -- it was a prison formed out of

10 necessity, because of the large number of captives and

11 who was responsible for that prison, I cannot assert

12 with certainty, because I did not find a single

13 document whereby one would establish who was

14 responsible for the prison -- because of the complexity

15 of the situation and the war operations, one could see

16 that both the HVO police and the MUP police were at

17 first responsible for the prison. Who was the

18 commander, I do not know -- I cannot assert that,

19 because there is no document to that effect.

20 MR. NIEMANN: Just looking at D/42, if you

21 would, for a moment, for me, please?

22 Might I see the exhibit before it is shown to

23 the witness -- I just want to check that I have the

24 right one. I am sorry, it is V-D/42 -- it is in the

25 binders and it is in the third binder. It could be

Page 10982

1 left in the binder -- just pass the binder.

2 For your Honours benefit, it is page 819.

3 (Handed).

4 Brigadier, this is one of the documents that

5 you included in your papers?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. And the order is directed, is it not, to the

8 commander of the prison?

9 A. Yes. The governor or warden or manager of

10 the prison, not commander.

11 Q. I do not know what the word you have in your

12 version of it is, but mine says "commander"

13 -- "commanding officer". Does yours not

14 say "commanding officer"?

15 A. No, I am sorry, let me explain. The

16 commanders and commanding officers are people in charge

17 of units, that is one concept. Another one are the

18 managers or governors of institutions or chiefs of

19 institutions who have no right of command, but right of

20 management and, in my text, it says "to the manager of

21 the prison" or "the warden".

22 Q. When I asked you who was "commander", you

23 have answered it literally according to your

24 interpretation. Let us start again. Who was manager

25 of the prison based on your interpretation?

Page 10983

1 A. According to this, we see that the manager of

2 the prison at the time was Mr. Zdravko Mucic.

3 Q. You do not doubt the validity of this

4 document, do you -- you are not suggesting it is not a

5 valid document?

6 A. No, I do not doubt it.

7 Q. You would agree with me that this document

8 says -- it is issued on the basis of the order of the

9 supreme command, so that the supreme command

10 headquarters in Sarajevo would have authority over the

11 prison complex at Celebici, would it not?

12 A. No.

13 Q. What is the meaning of the word on the basis

14 of the order issued at the very beginning of the order?

15 A. What this is is that the supreme command

16 issued this order to the commander of the Tactical

17 Group and it is not the prison that is under the

18 supreme command. Therefore, the supreme command gives

19 orders to the commander of the Tactical Group, who is

20 subordinated to him, to deal with the problem in

21 connection with the prison. In this case, it has to do

22 with the formation of a commission for the

23 interrogation of prisoners. Therefore, the supreme

24 command issues orders to the commander of the Tactical

25 Group and not to the manager of the Celebici prison.

Page 10984

1 Q. Are you suggesting that the supreme command

2 has no authority over the prison -- is that what you

3 are saying?

4 A. Yes, certainly.

5 Q. In relation to the document that you are now

6 looking at and other documents that you have seen, we

7 have the order numbers of the documents typed

8 immediately above the date in most instances. You said

9 last Thursday that you could not tell us what those

10 numbers signify. Am I correct in assuming that, at

11 least in 1992, you yourself did not issue any written

12 orders?

13 A. I do not know what you are referring to.

14 Q. I am simply asking you a question. Did you

15 issue orders yourself -- written orders -- in 1992?

16 A. I was not authorised to issue any orders.

17 Orders are only issued by the commander and I did not

18 hold the post of commander.

19 Q. You worked for the supreme command, but when

20 you were working for the supreme command, you issued no

21 orders -- that is my point?

22 A. I worked on the drafting of orders. It is

23 one thing to prepare an order and it is another to

24 issue an order. No other person has the authority to

25 issue orders, save the commander.

Page 10985

1 Q. I am right in assuming, am I not, that the

2 supreme command had authority over the municipal

3 headquarters of the Tactical Defence -- sorry, the

4 Territorial Defence?

5 A. This means the Territorial Defence staff of

6 Konjic and Jablanica who were not within the district

7 staff of Mostar, which at that time was still not

8 functional. All the other municipal staffs were

9 subordinated to district staffs, so there was this

10 chain of authority. The municipal staffs were

11 subordinated to district staffs and the district staffs

12 were subordinated to the supreme command staff. In

13 this case, this was a specific case in Konjic and

14 Jablanica. The district staff in Mostar -- had that

15 district staff in Mostar been functional, they would

16 not have been directly subordinated to the supreme

17 command in Sarajevo.

18 Q. But in fact, they were, in 1992?

19 A. Yes, they were. The municipal staff of

20 Konjic and Jablanica were directly subordinated to the

21 supreme command, because there was no other

22 intermediate level.

23 Q. So that if the supreme command wanted to give

24 a Tactical Group or an operative group authority over

25 municipal headquarters of the Territorial Defence, then

Page 10986

1 there is no question that it had the authority to do

2 that, should it want to do so, in Konjic?

3 A. In this case, we are probably dealing with an

4 order of the supreme command, which was probably not

5 being implemented or it was not implemented on time.

6 So, the supreme command, through the commander of the

7 Tactical Group, is sending an urgent message that the

8 problem should be tackled -- whether at the time there

9 was a direct connection between the supreme command and

10 the municipal command, I cannot say, and why the

11 commander of the Tactical Group is being asked to deal

12 with the problem, but, obviously, from the preamble of

13 this document, it is evident that the signatory of this

14 document is calling on this problem being resolved as

15 soon as possible.

16 So, it is not the commander of the Tactical

17 Group who is involved here, but the --

18 MR. NIEMANN: Nobody asked you that, and you

19 did not answer my question. I really would appreciate

20 it if you would just answer my question. My question

21 has nothing to do with that document -- it is a general

22 question. My question is this: did the supreme

23 commander in Sarajevo have authority over the municipal

24 headquarters of the Territorial Defence? It is a

25 simple "Yes" or "No" answer.

Page 10987

1 MS. RESIDOVIC: The witness has several

2 times, in the examination-in-chief and the

3 cross-examination, answered this question with

4 precision already.

5 MR. NIEMANN: Perhaps I might be directed to

6 it in the transcript, if that is the case, because

7 I have not seen it.

8 JUDGE JAN: See the organisational chart

9 which is prepared and he has made the -- he has shown

10 the municipal staff to be directly under the supreme

11 headquarters.

12 MR. NIEMANN: That is a document that we

13 object to most strenuously, because the witness that

14 prepared it is not here to testify. We have no

15 idea --

16 JUDGE JAN: But that is his position.

17 MR. NIEMANN: I will move on.

18 You said in your evidence a report from an

19 investigating commission is normally the kind of report

20 that can be relied upon. I note from your documents

21 that, in addition to such reports, you have included

22 some verdicts from military courts. So, I presume you

23 will agree with me that decisions of military courts

24 are also the kinds of documents that normally can be

25 relied upon; is that right?

Page 10988

1 A. Those are verdicts from 1995, I think.

2 Q. It does not matter when they are. I am just

3 asking, are they the sort of documents that normally

4 can be relied upon?

5 A. Probably, yes. I did not study that

6 problem. I did not go into legal issues or the work of

7 the judiciary. I did not consider that to be my duty.

8 I am a military expert.

9 Q. You saw fit to put them in your documents so

10 presumably they serve some purpose?

11 A. Their purpose is to show that, with the

12 formation of courts, justice started to function and

13 criminals were brought to justice. That is the only

14 reason.

15 MR. NIEMANN: Might the witness be shown the

16 document marked Prosecution Exhibit 139, please?

17 I have some additional copies for your

18 Honours. (Handed).

19 Brigadier, have you seen this document

20 before? Has it ever been shown to you?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Is it a document that you took into account

23 when you prepared your report?

24 A. May I have a look at it first, please?

25 (Pause) I am sorry, I had not seen this one. I thought

Page 10989

1 it was another document on a trial -- this one I have

2 not seen.

3 MS. McMURREY: Your Honours, may we object to

4 this? Number 1, of course, the witness has said that

5 he has never seen it, he did not rely upon it in

6 preparing his report and it is just an attempt by the

7 Prosecution to introduce to the court evidence that has

8 already been ruled inadmissible and irrelevant to these

9 proceedings.

10 MR. MORAN: I join that objection. As

11 I recall, when this document was admitted, it was

12 admitted for a sole purpose --

13 JUDGE JAN: It relates to the previous

14 conviction of two of the accused before us.

15 MR. NIEMANN: I am not introducing it for

16 that purpose. I want to know whether he relied on it

17 for his report.

18 JUDGE JAN: Why are you referring to this

19 document -- to show what?

20 MR. NIEMANN: Whether he relied on it,

21 because it makes reference to the role of Mr. Delalic in

22 the document. I wondered whether he considered it when

23 he prepared his report -- if he has not seen it, he

24 obviously did not consider it.

25 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: I do not think he even

Page 10990

1 saw it. You need not continue with this.

2 MS. McMURREY: May I ask that the documents

3 be taken back from the court, since they are not

4 introduced into evidence at this point for any purpose

5 whatsoever?

6 MR. NIEMANN: I am marking them for

7 identification. She can raise her objections --

8 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: He cannot identify what

9 he has not even seen.

10 MR. NIEMANN: I am not asking him to

11 identify it.

12 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: He could not -- why

13 should he identify it?

14 MR. NIEMANN: I am not asking it be

15 identified. I asked that it be marked for

16 identification.

17 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: I do not think so -- I

18 do not think it is necessary. It will not be so

19 marked.

20 MR. NIEMANN: It has already been marked.

21 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: It will not be -- the

22 trial deputy should not so mark it.

23 MR. NIEMANN: You said in your evidence that

24 Serb villagers in the Konjic municipality did not abide

25 by international rules of war. What international

Page 10991

1 rules of war did they violate?

2 THE INTERPRETER: The witness's microphone is

3 not switched on.

4 THE WITNESS: The question is not precise.

5 Will you please repeat it in a precise form?

6 MR. NIEMANN: Yes. You said in your

7 evidence, page 10625, that the Serb forces in the

8 villages of Konjic did not abide by international rules

9 of war. I am simply asking you what rules of war the

10 Serb villagers in the Konjic municipality did not abide

11 by?

12 A. I did not speak about that during my

13 testimony, or I do not recall.

14 Q. You were asked the question on page 10625 by

15 Mr. Olujic:

16 "No, no, no, before those who were armed,

17 those who were hiding, those who were undertaking

18 certain operations against the State, were they abiding

19 by international military law?"

20 I think Mr. Moran may have asked this

21 question. You said "no". Do you remember being asked

22 that question?

23 A. I cannot remember that.

24 MR. NIEMANN: We will not pursue it. So far

25 as you know, the Serb forces in the villages of Konjic

Page 10992

1 did abide by international law -- you would not know

2 one way or the other.

3 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: You did not ask that

4 question, did you?

5 MR. NIEMANN: He said in his evidence that

6 they did not. He now says he does not remember the

7 question.

8 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: It is now the opposite.

9 MR. NIEMANN: He cannot say one way or the

10 other.

11 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: You put that question to

12 him.

13 MR. NIEMANN: You cannot say one way or the

14 other whether they complied with international rules of

15 war or not?

16 A. They were considered rebels -- people

17 rebelling against the constitution and working to

18 overthrow the State -- whether they abided by the rules

19 of warfare, I did not go into that problem. I do not

20 remember having been asked that, whether they abided by

21 those rules. I do not remember.

22 JUDGE JAN: There is evidence of a shelling

23 on civilian population of Konjic from Borci.

24 THE WITNESS: That is a problem with the

25 Serbs -- the Serbs who organised defence before the

Page 10993

1 beginning of the war. It is well known that they

2 armed, that they captured positions around Konjic, and

3 they destroyed the innocent population. Whether that

4 is allowed by international military law, I do not

5 know, because I am not a lawyer, but it is well known

6 what they did. It is up to lawyers to say whether they

7 abided by international law, when they killed children

8 and citizens, if that is what you are referring to.

9 MR. NIEMANN: The shelling of Borci was done

10 by the JNA, was it not?

11 A. Not just the JNA. It was the JNA that had

12 armed them and they joined -- the rebel Serbs joined

13 the JNA, the JNA itself could not have done it. They

14 armed them and they operated together in Konjic.

15 MR. NIEMANN: In 1992, when did the Bosnian

16 army consider that a person was entitled to prisoner of

17 war status and what was the procedure used to determine

18 whether a person was entitled to that status.

19 MR. MORAN: I am going to object to the first

20 part of that compound question, because prisoner of war

21 status is a question of law, not a question that is

22 within the competence of this witness.

23 MR. NIEMANN: The issue of what the Bosnian

24 army took into account, when it determined whether a

25 person was entitled to prisoner of war status, is a

Page 10994

1 matter of fact. These are factual issues -- whether or

2 not that in the end amounts to prisoner of war status

3 under the Geneva Conventions is a question of law.

4 I am not asking the witness that. The factual question

5 as to what the army did and what it considered to be a

6 person who was a prisoner of war is a perfectly

7 appropriate question, based on fact. The witness comes

8 here to the court, he holds himself out as an expert in

9 military matters, he holds himself out as an expert on

10 the Bosnian army and I think he is perfectly entitled

11 to answer the question. He may not know the answer to

12 the question, but, if it is within his area of

13 competence -- and one presumes it is -- then it is an

14 appropriate question.

15 MR. MORAN: Your Honour, I would suggest that

16 the Judge Advocate General of the Army of

17 Bosnia-Herzegovina would be the appropriate person to

18 answer that question, not a staff officer.

19 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: I do not think you need

20 argue that. Can the witness attempt an answer? If he

21 does not know, he can say so. When do you consider a

22 person to have prisoner of war status -- it is simple.

23 THE WITNESS: My personal conviction is if he

24 was armed and if he was on the opposing side and

25 captured as such, he is a prisoner of war.

Page 10995

1 MR. NIEMANN: You have testified about

2 problems with the siege of Sarajevo and the problems

3 that created for the Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina. You

4 would agree with me, would you not, that the lifting of

5 the siege was a goal of the Bosnian army well past the

6 end of 1992 -- it did not finish somewhere in the

7 middle of 1992, but it went well beyond that, did it

8 not?

9 A. No.

10 Q. It did not go past the middle of 1992 -- that

11 was the end of the problem?

12 A. The problem of the siege of Sarajevo did not

13 end in the middle of 1992. The problem of the siege of

14 the city continued.

15 Q. And well past 1992?

16 A. Are you expecting me to answer? I do not

17 understand -- yes, the problem continued. The blockade

18 was not lifted until the withdrawal of the Serb forces.

19 Q. When you were going through some of your

20 documents, you said in respect of some of them that you

21 were convinced that those documents existed in

22 archives, and those were the words that you used, that

23 you were convinced they existed in archives. When you

24 said that, were you stating that you actually saw them

25 in archives, or were you just stating an opinion that

Page 10996

1 you were convinced that they were there?

2 A. While working on my expert report, I have 42

3 documents listed that I found, but I have not seen

4 everything, nor can I claim that everything exists,

5 because the supreme command headquarters was shelled

6 frequently, the location was changed, the supreme

7 command headquarters is a large institution. Imagine

8 how many documents. There were 12 departments apart

9 from the supreme command and the operational centre, so

10 I did not claim that I had seen everything, but

11 according to my expert analysis I have 42 documents

12 that were studied and listed in my report.

13 Q. That is all I am talking about. Were those

14 documents seen by you in archives and taken from

15 archives, or were they given to you by some other

16 source, that is my only question?

17 A. A part of the documents were obtained from

18 the archives and a part were given to me by the

19 defence, a part from the Institute for the

20 Investigation of War Crimes. There were several

21 sources, therefore.

22 Q. Did you look at documents in the archives of

23 the 443rd Brigade, which I believe is now in Konjic?

24 A. I do not have any such document.

25 Q. Did you look at any army archives that had

Page 10997

1 held in Konjic?

2 A. The documents issued by the staff or the

3 joint command, those I have enclosed and I do not have

4 any document from the 443rd Brigade. I have documents

5 from the Croatian brigade of Herceg-Stjepan and that,

6 too, has been enclosed.

7 Q. The person in charge of military archives in

8 Konjic, did you speak to that person?

9 A. I do not know which person was in charge of

10 the archives -- I talked to the commander.

11 Q. What was his name?

12 A. He is now the commander of the development

13 group -- it is in the documents -- I cannot recall the

14 name.

15 Q. You cannot remember his name, thank you.

16 Also in your evidence you spoke of the fact -- about

17 the creation of war presidencies, and you spoke about

18 it under the old law and under the new law. Under the

19 old law, a war presidency could be established if there

20 was an immediate threat of war, whereas under the new

21 law the war presidency could only be created in periods

22 of war; do you remember saying that, or to that effect

23 in your evidence?

24 A. In both cases, in both the old and new law,

25 in fact, it was adopted from the old law. As soon as

Page 10998

1 such a situation exists when the assembly cannot sit,

2 the war presidency is established.

3 Q. I see. So, you may not have said it, but you

4 would disagree with me if I put to you that, under the

5 new law, you could only create a war presidency if you

6 were in a state of war, as opposed to an immediate

7 threat of war -- you would disagree with that?

8 A. The war presidency is established whenever

9 there are no conditions for the assembly to sit, that

10 is, in circumstances of war.

11 Q. I asked you last week when you were giving

12 evidence if you could give me the names of any of the

13 persons or persons that you had spoken to -- sorry,

14 that you had spoken to and relied upon when compiling

15 your report. Did you remember the name -- did you do

16 that for me and remember the names of any of the

17 persons?

18 A. I am a bit advanced in age, so my memory of

19 names is a bit spotty, so, please, if you can avoid

20 asking me those things as well as numbers. What I am

21 really looking to do is look at the documents and

22 I have really discussed matters with a whole range of

23 people.

24 Q. I asked you also whether you could tell me

25 where you got the document from, dated 11 July 1992,

Page 10999

1 appointing Mr. Delalic, where we had demonstrated that

2 the word INDA-BAU had been removed. You were going to

3 find out and tell me where you had got that from. Did

4 you make any enquires about that?

5 A. I checked on that, and I was given this

6 document by the defence.

7 MR. NIEMANN: And, finally, just a moment ago

8 we were discussing about the authority of the supreme

9 command over the municipal headquarters and I had asked

10 you the question, did the supreme command have

11 authority over the municipal headquarters? I do not

12 think that we got an answer to that, because you then

13 started to speak about TG1. I just ask you to look at

14 this document that is now shown to you and it might be

15 given the next number in order. (Handed).

16 THE REGISTRAR: Prosecution document 231.

17 THE WITNESS: I did review the document,

18 so, please, you can ask your question.

19 MR. NIEMANN: Have you seen this document

20 before?

21 A. No.

22 Q. You worked with Sefer Halilovic, did you not,

23 in the supreme command?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Are you familiar with his signature?

Page 11000

1 A. I am familiar with the signature, but

2 I cannot say that this is his signature, because a

3 signature can always be counterfeited in certain ways.

4 I am not saying that this is the case here.

5 Q. Does it look like a counterfeit of Sefer's

6 signature?

7 A. No.

8 Q. The stamp that appears on the document

9 appears to be the regular and ordinary stamp that one

10 would expect to find on a document of this kind?

11 A. Yes.

12 MR. NIEMANN: Just in relation to the

13 document, you would agree with me, would you not, that

14 this indicates that the supreme command has authority

15 to place the municipal headquarters under the immediate

16 authority of an operational group or an operative

17 group?

18 MS. RESIDOVIC: Your Honours, I object as to

19 the relevance of this document. This is a completely

20 different area of Vares and Visoko. It has nothing to

21 do with the area that is relevant to this matter.

22 MR. NIEMANN: It goes to authority. It is

23 put to the witnesses as a basis of authority of the

24 supreme command. If there is any suggestion -- if the

25 Defence would be prepared to stipulate that the supreme

Page 11001

1 command of the armed forces had the authority over the

2 municipal headquarters and could place the municipal

3 headquarters under the authority of an operative group,

4 if they are prepared to stipulate to that, I will not

5 proceed with the matter. If they are not prepared to

6 stipulate to it, I think it is a fair question.

7 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: The witness can answer

8 the question.

9 MR. NIEMANN: Could you answer the question,

10 please?

11 A. I have already stated what the system of

12 subordination was. That is, the supreme command was at

13 the top of the armed forces. Subordinated to them were

14 the district staffs of the Territorial Defence and

15 then, to them, the municipal staffs were subordinated,

16 so this was the chain of command and here we are

17 talking about the establishment of an operative group,

18 so there is no direct subordination of the municipal

19 staff to the supreme command -- to the staff of the

20 supreme command.

21 So, this jump can happen. For instance,

22 here, the commander, by forming an operative group, is

23 ordering -- that is, stating -- which units are going

24 to be included there, but this is not the usual

25 practice. So, the municipal staffs were usually

Page 11002

1 subordinate to the district staffs. So, the supreme

2 command staff did not necessarily need to communicate

3 with the municipal staff, because he already had a

4 subordinate intermediary staff that did that.

5 MR. NIEMANN: Might the document be marked

6 for identification, your Honours?

7 Finally, Brigadier, do you remember whether

8 one of the persons that you spoke to, when you compiled

9 your report, was a person called Jasminka Dzumhur?

10 A. I did not get in touch with Ms. Dzumhur --

11 I do not know her. I thought it was not part of the

12 military expertise area.

13 MR. NIEMANN: No further questions.

14 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: That is all for the

15 cross-examination.

16 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Any re-examination?

17 MS. RESIDOVIC: Yes, I have some questions,

18 but, first, I would like to ask whether it would not be

19 better if we were to resume at 12?

20 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: It will not be better.

21 You had better start your re-examination now.

22 JUDGE JAN: Before re-examination starts,

23 I would like to know, what was the precise role of MUP

24 in Konjic in 1992.

25 THE WITNESS: The Konjic MUP was subordinate

Page 11003

1 to the Ministry of the Interior of the Bosnian State.

2 Its role was to keep the public law and order and, in

3 addition to the regular police forces, there were

4 reserve police forces, which are mobilised in wartime.

5 They assist the regular police forces, but they could

6 also be used in combat operations. They were a

7 component member of the armed forces. They had the

8 right to arrest, to remand persons in custody, so they

9 had all the regular duties that a civilian police force

10 does and the reserve police force was also -- could

11 also be used in combat operations.

12 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Ms.. Residovic,

13 I thought you did not need any extra time to study the

14 matter, because, in re-examination, you are limited to

15 areas which are still ambiguous arising from

16 cross-examination. I did not think there were so many

17 areas of that type.

18 MS. RESIDOVIC: Yes, your Honour, I will try

19 to limit myself to exactly such questions. I did have

20 sufficient time after the cross-examination of the

21 Prosecutor, because we had a holiday recess, so I did

22 prepare. I respect your decisions, and so I would like

23 to also be directed in a manner that would not throw me

24 off.

25 Now, I would like to go back to the issue

Page 11004

1 which I tried to raise before this witness came back

2 this morning, because I believe as the Defence counsel

3 I need to raise them with the Trial Chamber.

4 In the evidence which was offered together

5 with the expert report in part 3, V-D/53 in the Bosnian

6 language on page 852 and, in English, at 854, there is

7 a list of 32 names and in place 31 there is a name,

8 Risto Vukalo which was erroneous. It was offered by

9 the Prosecution as Exhibit 225 and Mr. Niemann talked

10 about it on page 10950 of the transcript. This

11 document does not contain, under 31, the name of Risto

12 Vukalo. I would like to remind the Trial Chamber that

13 the Defence identified the same document here under

14 number D114/1 -- it is the identical document, and this

15 document was provided at a much earlier stage to the

16 Prosecution and in this document 114 there is not the

17 name of Risto Vukalo -- it was brought in and

18 identified by the witness Arif Sultanic.

19 This document was provided by the Prosecution

20 to the Defence. It was shown to the Trial Chamber.

21 Even though this document was not accepted into

22 evidence, it was offered to the Trial Chamber and the

23 Defence also offered it to the Defence expert witness.

24 Right now, I cannot go into details about all the

25 difficulties we encounter in Sarajevo when we are

Page 11005

1 trying to either have these documents copied and

2 translated, but I would like to point out that this is

3 simply a technical error and this is the first issue

4 that I wanted to draw your attention to.

5 The second issue that Mr. Niemann pointed out

6 is the document that the witness showed at VI/4 and it

7 is page 896 in Bosnian and 897 in English -- INDA-BAU

8 does not appear in the Bosnian text -- it is in the

9 English translation of the text that was enclosed

10 together with the expert report of this witness. You

11 know well that this document was admitted with the

12 word "INDA-BAU" included and it was included as 997/9.

13 If you will recall, it was the Defence which

14 insisted that the name, the date and the fax number

15 would be marked, because this is a document that my

16 client himself identified when he was questioned by the

17 Prosecution office.

18 So, what I am going to say is that, again,

19 this is a technical error. The witness received this

20 document from the Defence, and I request that these

21 explanations be accepted and there are English

22 translations.

23 Thirdly, the chart TG1 which was --

24 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: You have sufficient

25 time to make explanations. Can you re-examine the

Page 11006

1 witness? If there is some question arising from

2 cross-examination, which this witness has to give, you

3 make your re-examination and he will make the

4 explanation. It is not for you as counsel to say what

5 he should say. I agree there are explanations which

6 counsel can make, but if it is an explanation which the

7 witness should himself give, ask your question so that

8 he will be able to make the explanation himself. You

9 should not keep him sitting there with you making

10 explanations which he should make.

11 MS. RESIDOVIC: Your Honours, these are

12 issues raised by the Prosecutor in cross-examination

13 and these are documents received by the witness from

14 the Defence. Since these were errors in documents that

15 the Defence provided, I thought that it was my duty

16 before this Trial Chamber to point out those facts. If

17 there is an error in the chart and if the Defence is

18 able to call General Polutak, then we would be able to

19 explain this correction. Let me tell you, if I did not

20 raise these issues, I would not feel well as Defence

21 counsel for my client.

22 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: If you have any

23 questions arising from cross-examination, kindly put

24 them to the witness. He will make his explanations

25 Re-examined by MS. RESIDOVIC

Page 11007

1 Q. Brigadier, during the cross-examination by

2 the Prosecutor, you reiterated your statement that the

3 coordinator was not a military position. Can you --

4 and that it was a very specific type of a role. Can

5 you tell me whether your experience and your expertise,

6 based on your work within the armed forces, whether, on

7 this basis you can give your opinion on when the

8 coordinator -- the role of the coordinator arose during

9 that period?

10 A. I cannot hear the interpretation -- the

11 English interpretation.

12 THE INTERPRETER: The interpretation was

13 complete.

14 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Kindly check his

15 earphones.

16 THE INTERPRETER: Something is not working.

17 Mr. Usher, can you hear me?

18 THE WITNESS: The concept of coordinator

19 does not refer exclusively to the military structures.

20 To "coordinate" means to bring something into

21 agreement, so there was a need to link things, to make

22 them work together, both in civilian and military

23 matters.

24 MS. RESIDOVIC: Very well. Can you now tell

25 me, in 1992, how often would you encounter this role of

Page 11008

1 a coordinator?

2 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: There is no question

3 about whether there was a coordinator or Tactical Group

4 commander -- there is nothing.

5 MS. RESIDOVIC: The last question here: was

6 this specific to Konjic?

7 A. No, it was not specific to Konjic. This

8 happened throughout the country wherever there was that

9 kind of problem, wherever there were multiple

10 participants, somebody had to be inserted to work on

11 solving these problems.

12 Q. Brigadier, I am going to ask you a different

13 kind of question now. You were shown an order which

14 allegedly was signed by Mr. Delalic on 14 November. Can

15 you please tell me, with your experience, when a

16 certain problem was identified, what was the way in

17 which the supreme command responded to it?

18 A. There were different problems which were of a

19 similar nature. For instance, when we would go to

20 visit the positions --

21 Q. Brigadier, if I can interrupt you, can you be

22 more specific in your answer? If a certain wider

23 problem was being identified, what was done in 1992 by

24 the supreme command?

25 A. Yes, if there was a problem of various

Page 11009

1 commands of the various corps, what was done was a

2 circular order would be issued to all commands, so this

3 would be circulated around to all the respective

4 commands.

5 Q. On page 10945 and further in the transcript,

6 you said that this could have been a circular order.

7 What prompted you to give this answer?

8 A. When reviewing this document, I saw that it

9 was not characteristic for Konjic alone. It was a

10 problem that, at the time, was present in the army and

11 I did not know whether this was the intelligence

12 department that said to circulate it around to all the

13 reconnaissance units and the intelligence units.

14 Q. Thank you. On page 10918 you were asked a

15 series of questions by the Prosecutor relating to the

16 law on defence. Brigadier, can you now tell me whether

17 any of the provisions of the law on defence puts the

18 municipality in the position of command and control of

19 the armed forces?

20 A. I think I already responded to it

21 unequivocally. I do not think there is a need for me

22 to repeat. The presidency of the municipality has

23 absolutely no authority over the armed forces units in

24 terms of command and control.

25 Q. Brigadier, in your research, did you find any

Page 11010

1 document based on this law which was signed by the

2 coordinator -- linked to the prisons?

3 A. No, there was only this document which was

4 introduced a moment ago relating to the establishment

5 of the commission which was to interrogate prisoners.

6 That is the only one linked to the prisons.

7 Q. Very well. Thank you. Can you tell me how a

8 subordinate soldier, when he addresses his superior,

9 how did he address him in the former JNA, that is, with

10 what title would he use?

11 A. In the former Yugoslav People's Army, whose

12 rules we adopted at the beginning of the war, when the

13 superior calls him, he would address him, "Yes, Comrade

14 Captain" and at that time there were no "Mr.", it

15 was "Comrade" and then you would add the rank.

16 MS. RESIDOVIC: Very well. After 1992, in our

17 own army, when the Bosnia-Herzegovina became an

18 independent State, how did --

19 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: I do not see how this

20 arises out of the cross-examination. It has no place.

21 MS. RESIDOVIC: Your Honours, I am going to

22 ask that this be allowed, because there are two

23 relevant points that I would like to make -- a

24 videotape was shown to the witness --

25 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: You are not being fair

Page 11011

1 to the cross-examiner, who merely limited his questions

2 to areas which, if there were any doubts, you were

3 expected to re-examine. Limit yourself to those areas,

4 instead of wandering off and dealing with areas which

5 are not relevant to this examination.

6 MS. RESIDOVIC: Let me tell you the grounds.

7 The film was shown to show Delalic as a person of

8 authority -- of superior authority -- and we wish to

9 show that the translation offered by the Prosecution

10 puts Mr. Delalic in an ambiguous position. That is why

11 I wanted to ask the witness and suggest that we view

12 the tape once again to see the error made in the

13 translation and in the position of Mr. Delalic as a

14 person of superior authority.

15 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: You delight in wasting

16 time -- if you do, you can continue. I think it has

17 nothing to do with the cross-examination which I have

18 listened to. There is no reference -- there is nothing

19 ambiguous, Mr. Delalic himself was a superior of this

20 group -- he was the commander of the TG1 and there is

21 no question about that. Nobody has doubted that.

22 MS. RESIDOVIC: Your Honours, the tape

23 referred to a period when Mr. Delalic was a

24 coordinator --

25 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Let us not continue

Page 11012

1 with this argument. There is no need for it.

2 MS. RESIDOVIC: May I be allowed to show the

3 film that was shown by the Prosecutor to this witness?

4 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: I have indicated to you

5 it has nothing to do with the cross-examination. But

6 you are still insisting.

7 MS. RESIDOVIC: Your Honours, we would like

8 to offer a translation of this document as a correct

9 translation, and we feel that this shows doubt as to

10 the position of my client, raised through the

11 cross-examination.

12 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: I have not listened to

13 any question which raised any doubt whatsoever. Ask

14 him any questions which you think arises from

15 cross-examination. Those are the only things you

16 should do. I think you are taking the indulgences too

17 far.

18 MS. RESIDOVIC: Your Honours, may I -- I may

19 perhaps ask for a private session at one point, but now

20 I should like to address the -- a question to the

21 witness linked to the cross-examination.

22 Brigadier, if a soldier addresses somebody

23 without giving the title or rank, saying, "Mr."

24 or "Mr. Commander", is he addressing his superior

25 officer?

Page 11013

1 A. In our army, at the beginning of the war when

2 there were no ranks until November 1993, the

3 subordinate would always address his superior, "Yes,

4 Mr. Commander". When ranks were introduced, then he

5 would say, "Yes, Mr. Commander", "Mr. General",

6 "Mr. Colonel". So he would rank. If there were no

7 ranks, then he would add the title.

8 Q. Brigadier, if a soldier is not addressing the

9 person with the words "Mr. Commander", or any other

10 rank, does that mean that he is his superior?

11 A. If he did not use the term "Mr. Commander", or

12 "Mr." with the rank, then that does not -- that means

13 that he was not his superior.

14 MS. RESIDOVIC: Your Honours, since the

15 translation offered by the Prosecutor of his exhibit

16 shown to this witness contained those very words, this

17 was a reason for ambiguity and that is why we felt it

18 necessary to clear this up. We would like to offer a

19 correct translation of this dialogue so that the court

20 may make its own conclusion as to its --

21 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: What is ambiguous in

22 the dialogue?

23 MS. RESIDOVIC: -- as to the situation. A

24 soldier addressing Delalic does not use the words given

25 in the translation. He does not say, "Yes, Sir". In

Page 11014

1 the text that we were given as a translation of this

2 document, there is the word "Sir", both when addressing

3 Padalovic and Captain Galanic. Therefore, the

4 existence of this term is indicative of a superior

5 position and that is the ambiguity.

6 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: The witness has

7 explained it. He need not say anything further.

8 MS. RESIDOVIC: Brigadier, tell us whether

9 you are familiar with the correspondence between the

10 Konjic municipal staff, the Zenica staff and the

11 supreme command regarding the relocation of the prison?

12 A. Yes, in my report, there are two documents --

13 the municipal headquarters of Konjic addresses the

14 supreme command with a request that the prisoners from

15 Celebici be moved to Zenica.

16 Q. Brigadier, did you check the validity of

17 these documents in the army archives of

18 Bosnia-Herzegovina?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Brigadier, are you personally aware that a

21 provisional command of the Group South was formed in

22 which Zejnil Delalic was assistant commander for

23 logistics?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Did you check this document in the archives

Page 11015

1 of the Bosnian army?

2 A. Yes.

3 MS. RESIDOVIC: Thank you, your Honours,

4 I have no further questions of this witness.

5 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Thank you very much.

6 I think this is all we have for this witness.

7 Thank you very much, Brigadier, you have been

8 very helpful. You have spent -- I am unable to count

9 the number of hours you have spent sitting there

10 answering questions intelligently and in the expert

11 manner in which you have been put forward. We are very

12 grateful for your assistance and for all your effort in

13 explaining so many things which were still obscure to

14 the Trial Chamber.

15 THE WITNESS: Thank you, your Honours.

16 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Yes, Ms. Residovic.

17 MS. RESIDOVIC: Your Honours, in view of the

18 fact that, at the end of the examination-in-chief, as

19 far as I was able to understand your ruling, you found

20 that the expert report compiled by the expert is

21 acceptable. I wish to tender it into evidence.

22 At the same time, I am also tendering the

23 documents contained in three volumes, appended to the

24 report, to be admitted as the grounds on the basis of

25 which this expert compiled his report and testified in

Page 11016

1 court.

2 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: I suppose it is

3 admissible as evidence and the annexes as documents

4 on which he based his opinion are admissible. You can

5 tender them.

6 MS. RESIDOVIC: I am sorry, your Honours,

7 I did not hear the translation.

8 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: The report itself is an

9 exhibit and the annexes are admitted as documents on

10 which he based his opinion. They are admissible -- the

11 report, distinct from the documents. The documents are

12 not by themselves the truth of what they contain, but

13 they are the basis on which he relied for his opinion.

14 We accept it for that purpose. The difference is that

15 you cannot single them out for purposes other than the

16 fact that he based his opinion on them and the

17 annexes.

18 MS. RESIDOVIC: Your Honour, I understand

19 your ruling. May I just ask that, in view of the fact

20 that among the documents there are several drawings

21 made by the witness himself, and we had a similar

22 problem when it came to the admission of documents by

23 Professor Hadzibegovic, does that mean the documents

24 made by this expert personally can be admitted as

25 evidence within the three volumes of other documents

Page 11017

1 which are used as documents on which he relied upon for

2 his opinions?

3 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: The annexes are

4 admissible separately from the report itself. All

5 documents he relied upon in the report itself are

6 admissible for that purpose, but all those which are in

7 the annexes which he did not by himself make or which

8 he is not putting forward as having been made by

9 himself are relied upon as documents on which he based

10 his opinion.

11 MS. RESIDOVIC: Thank you. I understand now.

12 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: I think that is all.

13 Thank you very much. The witness can now be

14 discharged.

15 THE WITNESS: Thank you, your Honours.

16 (The witness withdrew)

17 MS. RESIDOVIC: May I ask the Registry to

18 give us the numbers of the exhibits admitted? That is,

19 the number for the report and the other documents in

20 support of the opinions of this witness.

21 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Before we interrupted

22 the last witness, we were dealing with the Defence

23 witness. Can we continue with him now?

24 MS. RESIDOVIC: May Mr. Sultanic be called

25 in. Will you please give us the number of the

Page 11018

1 exhibit?

2 THE REGISTRAR: The report is number

3 D143/1, and the annexes are D143A/1, D144/1 and

4 145/1.

5 (The witness entered court)

6 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Please remind the

7 witness he is still on his oath.

8 THE REGISTRAR: I remind you, Sir, that you

9 are still under oath.


11 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: You may proceed,

12 Ms.. Residovic.

13 ARIF SULTANIC (continued)

14 Examined by MS. RESIDOVIC (continued)

15 Q. Good morning, Mr. Sultanic.

16 A. Good morning.

17 Q. To facilitate understanding of our

18 conversation, I would like to ask you to wait for the

19 translation that you can here on the headphones before

20 answering my question.

21 Mr. Sultanic, did you some time in 1992 meet

22 Mr. Zejnil Delalic?

23 A. Yes. Actually, on 2 June 1992, I met

24 Mr. Zejnil Delalic.

25 Q. Did you know Mr. Zejnil Delalic from before,

Page 11019

1 that is, prior to 2 June 1992?

2 A. No, I was not acquainted with this gentleman,

3 but I had heard of him, that as a relatively young man

4 he had gone abroad to Germany and Austria and that he

5 was in business.

6 MS. RESIDOVIC: Your Honour, I apologise. My

7 client has just sent me a message asking if he may be

8 allowed to be excused for a few minutes, because he has

9 been here since 10 this morning.

10 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Yes, he may be excused

11 while you continue. We would not rise for that purpose

12 -- he may be excused. The security guards can take

13 him out.

14 MS. RESIDOVIC: Thank you.

15 Mr. Sultanic, why do you recollect that

16 particular date, 2 June 1992, as being the date when

17 you were introduced to Mr. Delalic?

18 A. I cannot hear anything on these earphones.

19 I cannot hear any voice from the earphones, so I cannot

20 check whether there has been any translation or not.

21 Could you please repeat the question?

22 Q. Mr. Sultanic, can you explain to this court

23 why it is you remember that particular 2 June 1992 as

24 being the day when you met Mr. Zejnil Delalic for the

25 first time?

Page 11020

1 A. I remember that date, because, after that

2 meeting, we enabled the first train to run in exactly

3 five days' time, so that the train started operating

4 five days later on 7 June on the part of the railroad

5 from Pazarici, and we were working on this around the

6 clock for five days.

7 Q. Thank you. Could you tell us where it was

8 that you met Mr. Delalic for the first time on 2 June?

9 A. On 2 June we met Mr. Delalic in front of his

10 house and in the ground floor of his house.

11 Q. Who was with you when you met with

12 Mr. Delalic?

13 A. There was a group of railway workers --

14 Gorlic, Ramic and myself and somebody called Juzopovic.

15 Q. Why did you go to see Mr. Zejnil Delalic on

16 that day, 2 June -- who was it that sent you to him?

17 A. Actually, as an organisation of public

18 importance, that is, the railways were a public

19 enterprise, and we had our own coordinating committee

20 of experts whose task it was to mobilise transportation

21 in this part of Bosnia-Herzegovina. We addressed

22 ourselves to several institutions in the municipality,

23 or, rather, the economic staff of the municipality, to

24 consult them and to inform them about this issue, and

25 since we had a lot of difficulty in obtaining some

Page 11021

1 materials. We also did not have proper carriages,

2 because this part of the railroad ran through a hilly

3 area and we needed a vehicle as well as the gas for

4 such a vehicle -- a heavy duty vehicle.

5 Q. What did they tell you?

6 JUDGE JAN: Excuse me. Leave that to the

7 cross-examiner to give us those details -- how did he

8 remember that date. You can leave these questions to

9 the Prosecutor, to bring them out in cross-examination

10 if he wants to know.

11 MS. RESIDOVIC: Mr. Sultanic, what did they

12 tell you in the economic staff?

13 A. The people in that staff told us to address

14 ourselves to Mr. Zejnil Delalic, because he was

15 assisting the economic staff as well as the army and

16 its structures and the TO.

17 Q. In the economic staff -- no, I am sorry, how

18 did you understand the role of Zejnil Delalic after the

19 economic staff members told you to contact him?

20 A. We understood that he had been designated to

21 carry out this task together with us.

22 Q. What was Zejnil Delalic's reaction to this

23 idea of yours?

24 A. Having heard what we had to say and what we

25 needed, he said that it was a good idea and in view of

Page 11022

1 the difficulties with transportation and communication

2 in general, because petrol and gas were in short

3 supply, and rail transport is far less expensive and

4 safer and better therefore, so he supported the idea

5 and he said he would do his best to see, with the

6 responsible people in the municipality, to get some

7 kind of permits or certificates allowing us to move

8 along the railway tracks and through various

9 checkpoints held by the military police, the MUP. So

10 we needed these certificates to be able to move around

11 unhindered in carrying out our tasks.

12 Q. Did Mr. Delalic succeed in getting you these

13 permits or permission for your work?

14 A. Yes, already the next day Mr. Delalic brought

15 something in the form of an order saying that it was

16 his duty, together with the other people from the

17 railways, to carry out this task, and at the same time

18 he brought in these permits, like visiting cards,

19 something like that, allowing us to move freely from

20 Pazarici to Jablanica.

21 MS. RESIDOVIC: May the witness now be shown

22 Prosecutor's exhibit -- I apologise, I did not know how

23 long the cross-examination would last, so I did not

24 have the documents ready, but they are here now --

25 Exhibit 127? I have sufficient copies for the witness,

Page 11023

1 for the court and for the Prosecutor. (Handed).

2 Mr. Sultanic, will you please examine this

3 document?

4 A. Yes. I remember this document.

5 Q. Mr. Sultanic, have you seen this document

6 before?

7 A. I saw it the day it was brought in by

8 Mr. Zejnil Delalic.

9 Q. In your understanding of this document, and

10 what you were doing, together with Mr. Zejnil Delalic,

11 what was Mr. Delalic's role in the execution of this

12 task?

13 A. His role was to coordinate all these

14 activities, together with us, and, upon the completion

15 of the task, to report back to the municipal

16 authorities and the TO command, that is, the joint

17 staff of the TO and the HVO, which of course he did.

18 Because he was working on this task with us, sometimes,

19 maybe once or twice, his brother drove this car and

20 obtained the reproduction material we needed, and the

21 fuel.

22 Q. Thank you. Mr. Sultanic, could you please

23 tell me whether, when you reached Mr. Delalic's house on

24 the ground floor, did you see any officers or any

25 soldiers that Mr. Delalic could have been in command of?

Page 11024

1 A. No, there were no soldiers there. There was

2 a kind of depot with some uniforms and some

3 communications equipment, but there were no soldiers

4 there.

5 Q. Mr. Sultanic, when you met Mr. Delalic and

6 while you were working with him, did he have any

7 military or civilian function?

8 A. No, he did not have any military or civilian

9 function. The only thing was that he was a coordinator

10 between the military and the municipal body such as the

11 railway, the post office, the distribution and so on.

12 Q. Mr. Sultanic, could, at that time, Mr. Delalic

13 give you any kind of orders?

14 A. No, under no circumstances -- he could not

15 have ordered us, because we were -- this was a job for

16 railway men, and he could just assist us. He could not

17 give us orders, nor did he try to give us orders,

18 because he had no authority to give orders.

19 Q. Mr. Sultanic, in view of the fact that this

20 project took five days, tell me, when did the train

21 start operating on this part of the railway line?

22 A. The train became operational on 7 June, on a

23 Sunday, 1992. I remember that day very well, because

24 that morning about 100 refugees had come to Konjic on

25 trucks, and we told them, because we saw them, in a

Page 11025

1 kind of kindergarten -- I think it was a kindergarten

2 -- we told them that the next people that come and

3 others that will be leaving Konjic, even they, if they

4 leave Konjic, would not have to go on trucks, open

5 trucks, but they could use the train, as it was set

6 into operation that day.

7 Q. Mr. Sultanic, was 7 June a peaceful day in

8 Konjic?

9 A. No, on the contrary. It was a very stormy

10 day, because that very morning the sirens sounded the

11 alarm for shelling, and just after the train had left

12 towards Jablanica, the shelling of the city started.

13 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: I think we will rise

14 now and reassemble at 2.30 p.m.

15 (12.30 p.m.)

16 (Luncheon adjournment)










Page 11026

1 (4.15 p.m.)

2 (The witness entered court)

3 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: You may proceed,

4 Ms.. Residovic.

5 MS. RESIDOVIC: Thank you, your Honours.

6 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Kindly inform the

7 witness he is still on his oath.

8 THE REGISTRAR: I remind you, Sir, that you

9 are still under oath.

10 THE WITNESS: I am aware of it.

11 MS. RESIDOVIC: Mr. Sultanic, before the

12 recess, we were looking at an order which was the basis

13 of your working with Mr. Delalic on establishing the

14 train runs. Mr. Sultanic, based on what Mr. Delalic was

15 doing together with you, was he in a position where he

16 could order you, or where he could adopt decisions?

17 A. No. I also earlier stated that Mr. Delalic

18 could not adopt any decisions or order us, so I think

19 that that is nonsense.

20 Q. Thank you. You said that you remembered this

21 day, because a lot of refugees arrived. Could you

22 please tell me now, why do you recall the arrival of

23 refugees on that day, or, to try to put it more

24 precisely, where did these refugees come from?

25 A. These refugees came from Foca, that is

Page 11027

1 eastern Bosnia. They came in large numbers, and so

2 I remember that day when this train went and they said

3 that they would not have to take cars or walk that part

4 of the way.

5 Q. Mr. Sultanic, as far as you know, when did the

6 refugees start arriving in large numbers in Konjic?

7 A. In late April and early May, they were coming

8 in groups of up to 50 persons. They were going through

9 the forests and through some mountain roads.

10 Q. What happened after Bradina -- after the

11 blockade was lifted from Bradina?

12 A. After the blockade of Bradina was lifted,

13 everything went on the train from Pazarici, that is

14 from the foothills of Igman to Jablanica where their

15 ultimate destination was.

16 Q. Mr. Sultanic, can you tell me whether this

17 celebration of starting the train runs was taped?

18 A. Yes, it was filmed by several cameras.

19 Q. Excuse me. Were you present at this

20 manifestation?

21 A. Yes.

22 MS. RESIDOVIC: Can the witness please be

23 shown an excerpt -- a portion of the Prosecutor's

24 Exhibit 116, which was the start of the train runs can

25 we please have the tape played? It is the excerpt 3,

Page 11028

1 which is the only one that I am going to offer.

2 (Videotape played)

3 THE INTERPRETER: (Translating videotape).

4 Maybe -- I would like to copy this timetable

5 and forward it to the railway stations and other

6 things. We have established the points for food, the

7 numbers of persons and those who are responsible.

8 The transport of refugees and travellers,

9 disregarding their religion or nationality --

10 everything will be free. That is okay. I will go by

11 car to warn them.

12 Is it one or two? Let us do both -- there is

13 no problem.

14 Estimating the difficulties in regard to

15 gasoline and difficulties in communication between

16 citizens and the others who are now active, that is,

17 our soldiers in this region between Jablanica and

18 Pazarici, we found this communication would be

19 established in the conditions that are prevalent now.

20 We came here to Jablanica by train, we were very

21 excited, the soldiers escorted us and we were who were

22 there, the part of the reporter team came by car to

23 wait for us here. The citizens of Jablanica know this

24 is the first free train; not yet, as we have not yet

25 given any public statement, but the citizens who need

Page 11029

1 this will be informed very quickly, as soon as the

2 first train comes. It means maybe even tomorrow, if it

3 runs according to the timetable.

4 Although you were not with us in the train,

5 are you also excited about this train coming from

6 Jablanica?

7 Of course, as the one who was in charge of

8 these project, I can say that I am satisfied. I also

9 have to praise these people here, the railroad workers

10 who took all this even more seriously.

11 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Do you need this as

12 part of your examination?

13 MS. RESIDOVIC: This is the excerpt -- this

14 excerpt takes about six or seven minutes and this is

15 the Exhibit 116, which was accepted by the Trial

16 Chamber, because of the relevance. Since we have a

17 witness who was present at this event, this is the only

18 opportunity that the Defence has to show what the role

19 of Mr. Delalic was in this.

20 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Is there a difficulty

21 with the role he played there? Nobody is disputing the

22 role Delalic played there.

23 JUDGE JAN: The train was known as the

24 "Zejnil Express" -- we have some evidence to that

25 effect.

Page 11030

1 MS. RESIDOVIC: Yes, your Honours, but the

2 entire 116 -- the war in Bosnia-Herzegovina is full of

3 these irrelevant pieces of evidence about the role of

4 Mr. Delalic, but the Trial Chamber did admit it into

5 evidence as relevant for what his position was, so the

6 witness here was present --

7 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: You assume a

8 multiplication of irrelevant matters to anybody's case.

9 MS. RESIDOVIC: No, we believe that it is

10 irrelevant in the sense that he did not have any

11 position of superiority, so we need to show what

12 actually happened there.

13 THE INTERPRETER: Your Honour, please,

14 microphone.

15 JUDGE JAN: The witness has already said he

16 was just a coordinator -- he had no part in giving

17 orders. He said that. Admittedly, he was a

18 coordinator. What his functions were is part of the

19 evidence. That is on the record. You have brought

20 evidence what the coordinator's role was in the

21 circumstances that Konjic was situated at that relevant

22 time; how does it help us further?


24 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, your Honour.

25 MS. RESIDOVIC: Excuse me, your Honour, your

Page 11031

1 microphone was not on, so I could not get the

2 interpretation of what you just said.

3 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: All I said was that

4 I do not think it will help us by competing in

5 introducing irrelevant evidence. If one party is to

6 introduce any irrelevant evidence, there is no point

7 the Defence doing the same. It does not help the Trial

8 Chamber at all.

9 MS. RESIDOVIC: Your Honours, the Defence

10 would like to be of assistance to the Trial Chamber in

11 the best way it can, but let me repeat maybe what

12 I have said several times. My client is charged with

13 being coordinating -- with coordinating the military

14 units since late May. If we do not show what we can,

15 how can we prove that? You have already admitted this

16 tape into evidence as relevant, in which case I do not

17 understand what the Defence is, or whether the Defence

18 is treated differently when it is trying to introduce

19 its evidence. That is not my understanding now,

20 because I was always under the impression that the

21 Trial Chamber has been treating us equitably.


23 MS. RESIDOVIC: Thank you.

24 Mr. Sultanic, do you also appear on this tape

25 showing the start of the train run?

Page 11032

1 A. Yes, I am also in this videotape that shows

2 the first train run.

3 Q. Did you also give an interview to a

4 journalist at that time?

5 A. Yes, I did give an interview to Vesna

6 Bektasevic, who was a journalist for Radio Konjic.

7 Q. Mr. Sultanic, what did you say your position

8 was at that time?

9 A. I told her that I felt very happy at that

10 time, because we were able to start this island

11 railroad. By that I meant that it was running in the

12 area that was free and my particular function at that

13 time was to oversee the electrical facilities, since

14 the person who was in charge of that had left towards

15 the end of April.

16 Q. Can you tell us what was the name of this

17 body in which you worked at the railroads?

18 A. This body was called the crisis staff of

19 railroad workers. We took over the regulations of the

20 Yugoslav railways and according to these rules, which

21 we adopted, the traffic of trains was regulated for

22 both peacetime and wartime and so we were in this body.

23 Q. Will you please allow me to ask some further

24 questions now? So, on this date, on 7 June 1992, was

25 there a similar body in the municipality; in other

Page 11033

1 words, was there a crisis staff in the municipality?

2 A. No, no -- there was an economic staff in the

3 municipality. There was no crisis staff.

4 Q. Mr. Sultanic, with whom in this crisis staff

5 at your company did you work -- that you cooperated

6 with in the municipal authorities?

7 A. We worked together with the economic staff

8 and I think that it was either Mr. Rebic or Mr. Dzejic

9 who was in charge of the economic staff. He told us to

10 turn to Mr. Zejnil Delalic, because he could support us

11 financially.

12 Q. Thank you. In this videotape, on this

13 occasion did Zejnil Delalic tell the journalist whether

14 he was in charge of carrying out this task -- do you

15 know this?

16 A. I know it and on videotapes you can also tell

17 that he was in charge, that he was ordered by the

18 municipal authorities to complete this task.

19 Q. Mr. Sultanic, let us round off this question

20 of the train. After 7 June 1992, did you continue to

21 cooperate with Mr. Zejnil Delalic?

22 A. Yes. For almost the whole month we had

23 contacts with Mr. Zejnil Delalic.

24 Q. Could you tell us briefly what those

25 activities consisted of?

Page 11034

1 A. Certainly. The first activity was that the

2 electric supply network was out of order in many places

3 and the long distance cables that provided power for

4 our station was also damaged, so it was necessary to

5 bridge this from another long distance cable, so in the

6 event of a fault in this one, this other one could be

7 used, and that there would be no interruption in the

8 regular rail traffic.

9 Q. Mr. Sultanic, what was the role of Zejnil

10 Delalic in carrying out activities of this kind?

11 A. As in the case of the train, to give us fuel,

12 to cooperate with us, to coordinate the people from the

13 electric supply system in Konjic and Pazarici, so as to

14 make the network operational as soon as possible, and

15 there was also a problem of electricity supply coming

16 from Sarajevo and the Konjic electrical distribution

17 network.

18 Q. How long did these operations go on for?

19 A. These operations lasted five to seven days,

20 but we continued to cooperate, since our intention was,

21 in agreement with the authorities in Mostar, to repair

22 damages on the railroad between Raska Gora and Mostar

23 . Although the bridge at Mostar had been destroyed,

24 the trains would reach Rastane and then use an

25 industrial rail track to get to the centre of Mostar.

Page 11035

1 Q. Mr. Sultanic, in the second half of June, did

2 you also cooperate with Mr. Delalic, or, rather, did you

3 work together to establish a communications centre?

4 A. Yes, we worked on this communications centre,

5 because I do not know for which reason the HVO forces

6 were supposed to form a communications centre, or,

7 rather, to capture a communications centre that was at

8 the Zlatar barracks so that we had to make another

9 communications centre, because two were too little, as

10 Konjic was constantly being shelled, and for some

11 strategic reasons they were making several

12 communication centres so that, should one be destroyed,

13 then others would be available for us to be able to

14 work normally and conduct the operations we had

15 planned.

16 Q. Mr. Sultanic, the work you did to establish a

17 communications centre, did it involve Mr. Delalic in any

18 way?

19 A. Not really, except that he gave us a car for

20 transportation and, as I had spoken to a colleague in

21 Mostar, and we as the railways had our own powerful

22 radio relay station of 1,000 watts output power, so we

23 needed strong installations and a generator and then

24 I told Mr. Bijgovic, the man in Mostar, and I proposed

25 to him and the TO in Konjic that this radio station

Page 11036

1 should be relocated to a safer place. A few days

2 later, this gentleman, Mr. Bijgovic, Mustafa and Sead

3 Beslagic, transported this so-called Harrison radio and

4 I was told that we were to install it upon the approval

5 of the TO in the ground floor of Mr. Zejnil Delalic's

6 house.

7 Q. Who decided that this communications system

8 be installed in the ground floor of Mr. Delalic's house?

9 A. The TO or, rather, the Territorial Defence

10 staff decided it. They decided to mobilise his house,

11 so to speak, in the same way that other facilities were

12 mobilised -- in some cases houses, motorcars, or any

13 other such resources for the needs of the defence of

14 Konjic.

15 Q. Who gave you the order to install the

16 communications centre?

17 A. The TO command.

18 Q. And, after this communications centre was

19 installed in the ground floor of Mr. Delalic's house,

20 who did the centre belong to?

21 THE WITNESS: It belonged to the Territorial

22 Defence -- the TO.

23 I apologise, your Honours, may I just add,

24 I mentioned a moment ago that, in view of the risk

25 entailed, several centres were set up. There was a

Page 11037

1 joint communications centre between the HVO and the TO,

2 an HVO centre on Mount Zlatar and the third one in the

3 house of Mr. Zejnil Delalic. In addition to these,

4 there was a communications centre for information

5 attached to the war presidency and the communications

6 centre of the MUP.

7 MS. RESIDOVIC: Mr. Sultanic, I would now like

8 to ask you to look at an order which is contained in

9 D145/1, volume III V-D/21, but, to simplify matters,

10 I have made sufficient copies for the court and for the

11 Prosecution to be able to ask you a couple of

12 questions. (Handed).

13 You have been shown an order to the chief of

14 communications from 1992. Mr. Sultanic, are you

15 familiar with the facts referred to in this order?

16 A. Yes -- yes, I am familiar with this and, as

17 I was just saying, there was the question of moving the

18 communications centre to Zlatar and that the PTT lines

19 from the joint command and the HVO command should be

20 redirected towards that hill with cables and

21 responsible for this, on behalf of the PTT, was Mr. Alic

22 Muhamed. He is a person that I worked with together in

23 the TO.

24 MS. RESIDOVIC: Thank you. Could this

25 document be returned? It is contained in the volume of

Page 11038

1 documents, but since this order has been identified by

2 the witness, I would like to tender this document as a

3 Defence exhibit into evidence.

4 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Are you tendering it

5 through this witness?

6 MS. RESIDOVIC: The witness has said that he

7 is personally familiar with this document. He knows

8 the contents of it and the activities that he himself

9 was involved in and, in view of the relevance of the

10 document and the communications centre --

11 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Was it directed to

12 him? He is not the maker -- it was not even directed

13 to him.

14 MS. RESIDOVIC: Can it be marked for

15 identification then as a Defence document, please?

16 Then we shall tender it through another witness.

17 THE REGISTRAR: It has been marked Defence

18 Exhibit D163/1.

19 MS. RESIDOVIC: I should now like the witness

20 to be shown another exhibit, which is contained in

21 D144/1 -- this is volume two of the evidence in support

22 of the opinions of the expert opinion -- to be more

23 precise, V/18. I have a sufficient number of copies

24 for the court and for the witness and for the

25 Prosecutor. Could it be marked first for

Page 11039

1 identification?

2 Mr. Sultanic, have you looked at the

3 document? (Handed).

4 A. Yes, I have looked at it. It is clear to me

5 what it deals with.

6 Q. Mr. Sultanic, do you know Mr. Muhamed Alic?

7 A. Yes, I do know Muhamed Alic. He worked as

8 head of a maintenance unit for maintenance of lines in

9 the post office in Konjic.

10 Q. Did he have any other function in between the

11 post office as a civilian institution and the

12 communication centre that you maintained?

13 A. He coordinated work of the post office with

14 the needs of the civilian and military authorities.

15 Q. Mr. Sultanic, are you aware that, apart from

16 Mr. Alic, there were other coordinators in Konjic

17 coordinating between various civilian and military

18 bodies in various areas?

19 A. Yes, there were coordinators, as, for

20 instance, Benadijn Alogic, who coordinated the civilian

21 and military bodies, and he worked in a timber

22 processing company making beds, ammunition boxes and

23 other supplies for the army.

24 Q. Thank you. In view of the activities you

25 were engaged in at the time, can you tell us whether

Page 11040

1 you know who were the commanders of the TO staff in

2 Konjic, or the HVO commanders?

3 A. Yes, I know. There was a joint command and

4 heading it was Mr. Esad Ramic on behalf of the TO and

5 Dinko Zebic on behalf of the HVO.

6 Q. In view of the fact that, throughout that

7 period -- we are talking about May, June and later July

8 as well -- in view of the fact that you were in Konjic

9 then and actively involved in communications, do you

10 know whether at any point in time Mr. Zejnil Delalic was

11 commander of the TO staff?

12 A. No, he was not ever, nor was he a member of

13 the staff, nor member of any body in the Konjic

14 municipality or any institution.

15 Q. Do you know whether he performed any

16 political function in Konjic at the time?

17 A. You mean whether he led a Party or something

18 like that?

19 Q. Yes, yes.

20 A. No, the President of the SDA Party was at the

21 time Mr. Nusmir Hadzihuseinovic, but he had nothing to

22 do with the Party, because he had just come from

23 Austria to attend his brother's funeral in April, so

24 that he was not there at the time of the elections, and

25 all these bodies were elected at the elections.

Page 11041

1 Q. Thank you. Mr. Sultanic, after completing the

2 installation of the communications centre in Zejnil

3 Delalic's house, did you continue to cooperate with him

4 in other areas?

5 A. Yes. I mentioned a moment ago that our

6 intention was an intention that was realised to a

7 certain point, to set into operation the railway line

8 in the direction of Mostar and we repaired the network

9 as far as the station at Vojno -- it is between Raska

10 Gora and Rastane and just below that was a source from

11 which Mostar was supplied with drinking water and the

12 railway line was cut there. There was a gap of about

13 five metres so we stopped there and I think it was

14 around 26 June that I went to Mostar on a bus --

15 Q. Will you please tell us what this has to do

16 with Mr. Delalic? Please do not go into any details

17 about your own activities, but tell us what those

18 activities have to do with any relationship that you

19 may have had with Mr. Delalic at the time?

20 A. Yes, certainly. He was always at our service

21 in all those activities regarding the procurement of

22 materials, vehicles and fuel that we used to travel

23 towards Mostar.

24 Q. Mr. Sultanic, if I understood you well, you

25 were partly employed in the railways and partly in the

Page 11042

1 communications centres. Did you have any duties when

2 the Operation Borci was in preparation and, if you did,

3 would you please explain what your role was?

4 A. Yes. I had an assignment as an electrical

5 engineer, specialising in low power, and I was quite

6 well versed in radio-communications from before. I was

7 given the task to set up a number of centres to provide

8 the electricity supply, generators, batteries, antennas

9 and everything else.

10 Q. And where did you set up those mini centres

11 and for what purpose?

12 A. As the region around Konjic is a mountainous

13 region and the front of the Konjic army was a very long

14 one, several mini centres needed to be set up and since

15 we were using low power equipment, up to 2 watts, and

16 we did not have any more powerful equipment, so that we

17 used short-wave stations from the command to these

18 outposts, which we marked as positions. The whole

19 operation was called Operation Oganj or "Fire" and the

20 positions were Oganj 1, 2, 3 and so on.

21 From these centres ultra short-wave or

22 frequency modulation links were established (FM links)

23 to other units -- the commanders of units participating

24 in the operation, and some of those, or, rather, these

25 mini centres had the task to provide logistic support

Page 11043

1 to the military forces on the ground.

2 Q. Mr. Sultanic, can you tell us where, for

3 instance, this station known as Oganj 1 was situated?

4 A. Oganj 1 was at Vranjske Stijene, which is

5 about 35 kilometres from Konjic.

6 Q. Tell me, please, Mr. Sultanic, since you said

7 that the operation was codenamed "Oganj", do you know

8 who was the commander of this operation?

9 A. At first, it was Mr. Esad Ramic and about 15

10 or 20 days into the operation he was either wounded or

11 something -- in any case, he did not continue to be in

12 charge and then Mr. Cerovac -- I have forgotten his

13 name --

14 Q. Never mind, Mr. Sultanic, it does not matter.

15 Tell me, please, do you know what was the role of

16 Mr. Zejnil Delalic in this operation?

17 A. In good part, yes, I am, even though I was

18 not with him, but I knew what he was doing, because we

19 frequently received messages from them up there asking

20 us to send in fresh forces or ammunition or food, so he

21 just received these requests from the commanders out in

22 the field, or from the command post where Mr. Ramic and

23 Mr. Cerovac were, as to what was needed for the forces.

24 Q. Since you were occasionally in the

25 communications centre in the municipal staff, do you

Page 11044

1 know in which of these mini centres which you

2 established -- in which of these Mr. Zejnil Delalic was?

3 A. I am sorry, I did not understand you well.

4 Q. Given what you have just testified to, can

5 you tell us in which of these mini centres which were

6 established, Oganj 1, 2, 3, in which of those

7 Mr. Delalic was?

8 A. He was at Oganj 1.

9 Q. In this area was there also some artillery?

10 A. No. Artillery was about 15 kilometres away

11 from that area.

12 Q. Thank you. Mr. Sultanic, do you know whether

13 there was a time when Zejnil Delalic was appointed to a

14 commanding military position?

15 A. Yes, I know that some time in late July 1992,

16 a messenger, a courier, came from Fojnica, some place,

17 and he said, "I need to find Zejnil" and he was going

18 to replace Mr. Mustafa Polutak.

19 Q. What was the duty that he was going to take

20 over?

21 A. The duty of Mustafa Polutak was the command

22 of TG1 which was in Pazaric and I also personally knew

23 Mr. Mustafa Polutak.

24 Q. You say late July -- what does that

25 mean "late July" in terms of your testifying before

Page 11045

1 this Trial Chamber and in the light of the events that

2 took place?

3 A. Yes, maybe two or three last days of July --

4 between 29 and 31 July, in that period -- that would be

5 the period.

6 Q. Mr. Sultanic, since you were occasionally in

7 this communications centre, can you tell me whether,

8 after this appointment of Mr. Delalic, did you contact

9 Mr. Delalic when you heard that he was appointed

10 commander of Tactical Group 1?

11 A. Yes -- yes, I did. I personally passed this

12 message on to him, even though that was not strictly

13 speaking my duty, my function, but I was proud that a

14 local from our town was appointed a commander of a

15 military structure like TG1, because its objective was

16 the lifting of the siege of Sarajevo.

17 Q. Mr. Sultanic, what do you know about the fact

18 that Zejnil Delalic was one of the persons who used

19 these command posts as a commander of the Tactical

20 Group 1 of this communications centre, that is?

21 A. Yes, of course, but this was infrequent,

22 because he went up to Pazaric, he was up in Mount Igman

23 around, that area, so he was in the communications

24 centre. Maybe he used it when he came back home for a

25 change of clothes, or when he came back home to do

Page 11046

1 something else.

2 Q. I believe that you have already stated this

3 before, but let me ask you again: do you know where

4 the seat of the Tactical Group 1 was?

5 A. Yes, I knew that the centre was in Pazaric in

6 the barracks which, before the war, belonged to the

7 JNA.

8 Q. Mr. Sultanic, you testified that Mr. Delalic

9 became the commander of Tactical Group 1 at one point

10 and did he become a person of superior authority to

11 you?

12 A. Not at all, because we were within the

13 authority of the Territorial Defence staff, which later

14 became part of the army structure when the brigades

15 were formed, but anybody could use the centre, whoever

16 had a need for it -- they would come to the centre,

17 they would bring -- let us say, a courier would come

18 and bring a telegram and they would be coded and they

19 would be sent out.

20 Q. Who was the head of the communications

21 centre?

22 A. The head of the communications centre of this

23 TO staff was Mr. Arsen Rizvanovic.

24 Q. Do you know who appointed him to that duty?

25 A. Yes, I do know -- he was appointed by Mr. Esad

Page 11047

1 Ramic, the commander of TO, just as he appointed me to

2 the position in charge of the technical facilities.

3 Q. Where did you keep your communications

4 equipment for a while?

5 A. If you mean my own --

6 Q. Yes.

7 A. Yes, my equipment was in my workshop, that

8 is, my personal workshop five kilometres out of Konjic.

9 Q. Did there come a time when you moved it to

10 Mr. Delalic's house?

11 A. Yes, I moved it around 1 July. This was in

12 the course of the Operation Borci and the equipment was

13 breaking down. We had some units which were being

14 prepared. This was west of Konjic in Buturic Polje.

15 They needed such equipment and I suggested to the

16 municipal headquarters to transfer my equipment out of

17 Konjic and they said that the communications centre at

18 Zejnil's house was very well equipped, so maybe

19 I should move my workshop there, and I was already

20 familiar with this radio system, Harrison -- this is

21 what railways were using before the war to send their

22 own communications.

23 Q. Thank you. Mr. Sultanic, was this

24 communications centre later, after the parting of the

25 ways with the HVO, that is, after July, was this

Page 11048

1 communications centre frequented by many users?

2 A. Yes, very much so, because all kinds of

3 people were asking to have their messages sent to

4 Sarajevo, Visoko, Mostar -- that is through this

5 Harrison system, and there was other equipment there,

6 too, so we were in the way of one another, and I had a

7 team of these mechanics or something, and then we said,

8 "Give us another room. We need another place to work

9 in peace" and we were not going to bother others and

10 they were not going to bother us. So we got one in

11 Varda, I believe -- there was a school there where the

12 TO moved its headquarters after parting ways with the

13 HVO.

14 Q. You said that Harrison is a pretty powerful

15 equipment. Tell me, after the installation of the

16 Harrison system, were there still problems in

17 communicating with the capital city?

18 A. Yes, there were problems, given that the

19 Harrison is the KT equipment. I do not know if

20 I should -- the distance is too short -- 50 to 60

21 kilometres, so this equipment goes far beyond that, so

22 it cannot work on such a short distance, so we worked

23 with the FM equipment and, for a while, we sent the

24 signal to Mostar, because Mostar was further away and

25 through Mostar we were bouncing them to Sarajevo. But

Page 11049

1 obviously there were frequent shortages of electricity

2 and gas in Sarajevo, so a number of these messages and

3 a number of orders that were supposed to be delivered

4 in this manner were actually delivered through

5 messengers or couriers.

6 Q. Mr. Sultanic, let me move to another area.

7 Can you tell me whether, at any time, while you were on

8 this post, did you ever go to the Celebici barracks?

9 A. Yes. I did go.

10 Q. How often did you go to the Celebici

11 barracks?

12 A. In 1992 I went once, but in 1994 and 1995

13 I may have gone a few more times for different

14 reasons. The first time was after 10 August -- maybe

15 around 15 August -- somewhere in between those two

16 dates. At any rate, it was either mid August or early

17 in the latter part of August.

18 Q. Mr. Sultanic, why did you go to Celebici -- to

19 these barracks?

20 A. There was a telephone exchange there that was

21 used by the former JNA, which had broken down, so I was

22 asked to go over there to see if I could repair it with

23 my men and make it operational.

24 Q. Thank you. Tell me, after Mr. Delalic took

25 over as a commander of TG1 and went to Pazaric and

Page 11050

1 after you transferred your private workshop to the

2 3 May school, did you have an opportunity to get in

3 touch with Mr. Zejnil Delalic?

4 A. Very rarely. If there was a need for me to

5 do something in the communications centre and he

6 happened to be there -- if he happened to come back

7 home, then we would see one another. We may have seen

8 each other once in Pazaric when there was an operation

9 that was going to take place at Ormanj and we were

10 supposed to install some equipment there and power it.

11 Q. Mr. Sultanic, while you were in the

12 communications centre in Delalic's house, did you

13 notice that there was some kind of an archive there?

14 A. There was no archive there. It was just a

15 log that was kept by the radio operators; in other

16 words, they just logged down everything that they

17 received and sent -- you know, the messages. That was

18 the only thing that could have been an archive. As

19 I mentioned earlier, there were some kind of boots

20 there but when I first came to Zejnil's house, I saw a

21 few uniforms -- in fact, there were quite a few

22 uniforms.

23 Q. Were you ever with Zejnil Delalic in the

24 Celebici barracks?

25 A. No, I had no need to and, given the duty that

Page 11051

1 he was on, I do not know what need he would have had to

2 go to Celebici.

3 Q. Since you were a citizen of Konjic and you

4 worked on duties that you described, do you know

5 whether Zejnil Delalic at that time had any contact

6 with the prison staff?

7 A. No, and I do not believe he did and he should

8 not have. Maybe private, but not official one.

9 Q. Mr. Sultanic, can you please respond just on

10 the basis of your personal knowledge?

11 A. No, no, he did not.

12 Q. Do you know, based on the cooperation you had

13 with him, whether Zejnil Delalic had any kind of

14 position of superiority over the prison?

15 A. No, he did not. From what I know, he did

16 not.

17 Q. Were you ever in a position, during the

18 course of working on duties that you were in charge of,

19 to see any messages being exchanged with the prison and

20 regarding the prison?

21 A. Let me tell you messages regarding the prison

22 were not transmitted through the radio and I do not

23 recall any such communications regarding the prison,

24 but I do recall a message -- somebody called from

25 Pazarici to the effect that somebody from the Red Cross

Page 11052

1 was supposed to visit the prison and that someone in

2 Konjic -- the MUP or someone in the municipality was

3 giving them problems. So we were asked to address the

4 issue to the supreme command, which we did, and,

5 shortly thereafter, a message came from the supreme

6 command to allow this visit to proceed. So, that is as

7 far as I remember.

8 Q. Can you tell me, as a citizen of Konjic

9 engaged in duties that you just described, had you ever

10 heard that somebody was mistreating the prisoners who

11 were detained in the Celebici barracks in 1992?

12 A. I did not hear about mistreatment of the

13 prisoners. It is possible that there was some rough

14 procedures that were used while people were being

15 detained.

16 Q. If you know about it, please do tell us, but

17 I am asking you about your personal knowledge -- are

18 you a witness of any such event?

19 A. No, no.

20 Q. Do you personally know whether any person

21 died in the Celebici prison?

22 A. I did hear of it, but I did not see it. That

23 is, I believe that a certain Keljo, who had a coffee

24 bar in Konjic, died or was somehow killed there, or

25 something like that.

Page 11053

1 Q. Was there general knowledge in Konjic about

2 mistreatment of prisoners?

3 A. No. On the contrary, many people, especially

4 people, the fighters, were saying that the prisoners

5 were eating better than those who were on the

6 front-lines, fighting.

7 Q. Did you ever see in the city persons who were

8 going to visit prisoners -- the detained persons?

9 A. Yes, I did see them, especially when the

10 railroad started operating -- they were coming from

11 Bradina, Brdjani, Podorasac and part of Konjic. They

12 were going to visit their next of kin and those who

13 were closer, they used their cars or went on foot, but

14 they mostly used trains to visit their relatives and

15 friends.

16 Q. Mr. Sultanic, in 1992, that was the first year

17 of war in Konjic. Do you know personally whether

18 people at that time invested their own money in order

19 to support the defence?

20 A. Yes, I do know that everybody contributed as

21 much as they could. One of them was Mr. Zejnil Delalic

22 and he contributed communications equipment like the

23 radio transmitters, other equipment -- I remember he

24 had a very good jeep type vehicle -- he used it

25 himself, but he also gave it to the army to use --

Page 11054

1 Smajo Kavazovic, the butcher and Mandzvke, even

2 I myself invested all my workshop and tools -- it all

3 went to TO to be used there.

4 Q. Mr. Sultanic, you thought it normal that all

5 people would support the defence as far as they could;

6 I know it is a bit of a leading question, but is that

7 the gist of what you were trying to say?

8 A. Exactly. Everybody contributed as much as

9 they could. If you do not want to give it to the

10 country in which you live, you do not need to live

11 there at all.

12 Q. Very well, Mr. Sultanic. In closing, do you

13 know whether you or anyone else you know and who worked

14 with you in 1992 -- was Zejnil Delalic a person of

15 superior authority to any one of you or your men?

16 A. In 1992, in Konjic, Zejnil Delalic was a

17 person of no superior authority to anyone. He was only

18 in charge of Tactical Group 1 and these soldiers were

19 from different units and some of them were from Konjic

20 -- let us say 50 -- some were from Jablanica, some

21 from Fojnica, some from Pazaric, some from Buturic

22 Polje.

23 MS. RESIDOVIC: Very well. I have no further

24 questions of this witness, your Honours.

25 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Does anyone have any

Page 11055

1 cross-examination of this witness?

2 MS. McMURREY: I have a couple of questions.

3 MR. OLUJIC: Yes, your Honour.

4 Cross-examined by MR. OLUJIC

5 Q. I shall be brief.

6 Good afternoon, Mr. Sultanic.

7 A. Good afternoon.

8 Q. I really will not take long. I just want a

9 point of clarification regarding what you said,

10 Mr. Sultanic, during the examination-in-chief by my

11 learned colleague, Edina Residovic. Actually, you said

12 that tempore criminis suspecti, that is, in 1992, that

13 you went to Celebici only once; is that correct?

14 A. Once in August.

15 Q. You were even more precise. You said it was

16 about the middle of August 1992; is that correct, or

17 even the second half of August, that is according to

18 the transcript -- is that correct?

19 A. In the second half of August -- after the

20 15th.

21 Q. Tell me, Mr. Sultanic, how do you know that

22 you went there precisely in the second half of August

23 and not earlier on, or later? Was there an event that

24 helps you to remember that it was precisely in the

25 second half of August?

Page 11056

1 A. I remember because at the beginning of August

2 the workshop that I was responsible for, that was in

3 the ground floor of Zejnil's house, I moved it at the

4 beginning of August. Then, we worked on the

5 establishment of these communication centres that were

6 about to be further enlarged so that this was after 15

7 August.

8 Q. So, it can be ascertained then that you

9 claim, with a high degree of certainty, that this was

10 in the second half of August 1992 -- you are almost

11 sure of that? Are you sure of that?

12 A. 1 million per cent.

13 MR. OLUJIC: Thank you, Mr. Sultanic.

14 Thank you, your Honours, I have no further

15 questions.

16 MR. MORAN: No questions from me, your

17 Honour.

18 MS. McMURREY: Good afternoon, Mr. Sultanic.

19 May it please the court?

20 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: You may proceed,

21 Ms. McMurrey.

22 Cross-examined by MS. McMURREY

23 Q. Thank you. Mr. Sultanic, first of all, I just

24 want to start off with -- I am the Defence counsel, one

25 of the Defence counsel for Esad Landzo and you did not

Page 11057

1 know Mr. Landzo in 1992, did you?

2 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Does he know him now?


4 MS. McMURREY: That was going to be my next

5 question. The indictment is 1992.

6 Do you know Mr. Landzo now?

7 A. Probably this young man. (Witness

8 indicates).

9 Q. Thank you very much. You also discussed

10 earlier -- you mentioned about the refugees. I just

11 want to ask briefly, as these refugees flowed into

12 Konjic, they brought with them the stories from their

13 villages and towns about murder, rape and destruction.

14 They related these stories to the people of Konjic, did

15 they not?

16 A. Certainly, yes. There were terrible stories,

17 hard to believe.

18 Q. These stories placed in the hearts and minds

19 of the people in Konjic a sense of panic and fear, did

20 they not?

21 A. It was quite unbelievable. Their stories

22 impressed people so much and their feelings, the

23 feelings of the people living there.

24 MS. McMURREY: Thank you. If I may, could

25 I ask the usher to show this photograph to the witness,

Page 11058

1 please?

2 MS. McHENRY: Might the Prosecution look at

3 it before it is shown to the witness?

4 MS. McMURREY: Certainly.

5 THE REGISTRAR: Defence Exhibit D39/4.

6 MS. McMURREY: Mr. Sultanic, do you recognise

7 the man in that photograph?

8 A. I know him very well.

9 Q. Can you tell the court what his name is?

10 A. I can -- his name is Mirko Babic, born in the

11 village of Bjelocina, north-west of Konjic.

12 MS. McMURREY: Thank you, Mr. Sultanic. Could

13 you place that photograph on the ELMO. It is the only

14 photograph I have -- just so the court knows who it is

15 that we are talking about, please. I do not know if

16 your Honours recognise this man. He is not a protected

17 witness. He testified before the court in March of

18 last year. Since the witness identified this

19 photograph and the testimony of this witness is part of

20 the record, this has been marked as D39/4. I would

21 like to have it admitted into evidence, please.

22 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: I do not know what the

23 purpose of it is.

24 MS. McMURREY: I will continue and retender

25 it in a moment.

Page 11059

1 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: I know why it is being

2 tendered -- you have already got him to identify the

3 person in the photograph. I suppose that is alright

4 for the purpose, for identifying the person in the

5 photograph.

6 MS. McMURREY: Thank you. I will ask some

7 more questions to make it clear.

8 Mr. Sultanic, how do you know Mirko Babic --

9 do you know him from your association with him in

10 Konjic?

11 A. Yes, I know him from Konjic, and I would see

12 him often. He was a forestry worker -- he was a guard,

13 a forest guard, but I remember an occasion, which was

14 comical in my view, maybe tragic for him, but he was

15 burning something that is used for whitewashing and he

16 got burnt and he was all in bandages, and I made jokes

17 with him and I said, how had he got burnt, was he with

18 Marijan Majic, another forestry worker. I said, "You

19 must have been drunk." He said, "We were a little, but

20 not so much." Anyway, he got burnt.

21 Q. Was this burn on his leg? The injury, was it

22 on his leg?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Did this injury occur before the war broke

25 out in 1992?

Page 11060

1 A. Yes -- at least four years before that,

2 something like that -- three to four years earlier.

3 MS. McMURREY: Could I ask assistance of the

4 usher again to please show this witness Defence Exhibit

5 D2/4, please? (Handed). If you will take a look at

6 that photograph, is that where Mirko Babic was injured

7 before the war in his accident while he was a forester

8 -- you have to answer, because the court reporter

9 cannot record the nodding of a head.

10 A. Yes, this shot shows his lower leg, below the

11 knee -- that is the injury due to the burn he got from

12 the lime.

13 Q. Thank you very much, Mr. Sultanic. Thank you,

14 usher.

15 And, also, was Mirko Babic, if you know,

16 involved in the SDS Party in his village of Bjelocina?

17 A. To be quite frank, I do not know.

18 MS. McMURREY: Thank you very much. I have no

19 further questions of this witness, your Honour.

20 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Any cross-examination

21 by the Prosecution?

22 MS. McHENRY: Good afternoon, your Honours.

23 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: You may proceed,

24 Ms. McHenry

25 Cross-examined by MS. McHENRY

Page 11061

1 Q. Good afternoon, my name is Teresa McHenry and

2 I am going to ask you some questions. If you do not

3 understand a question, please let me know, and I will

4 rephrase the question.

5 A. Good afternoon, yes, I will do that, okay.

6 Q. Sir, were you a member of the TO in Konjic?

7 A. Yes, for a time I worked simultaneously at

8 the railways until the New Year and for the needs of

9 the army I was engaged, as I just described.

10 Q. And when did you become a member of the TO?

11 A. On 15 March -- no, April.

12 Q. And did you wear a uniform with insignia on

13 it?

14 A. No, I did not wear a uniform. I probably

15 would have if there had been any, but there were not

16 any, so I did not wear one.

17 Q. And who was your superior in the TO from 15

18 April 1992?

19 A. From 15 April until around 20 May, shall we

20 say, there was no-one, really, because at that time

21 I had moved my workshop from Konjic towards Sarajevo,

22 the village of Podorasac -- this was my private

23 workshop, so I moved it there and I did some things,

24 like establishing telephone lines while at the same

25 time I went to work in Konjic, and took care of the

Page 11062

1 things I talked about previously, linked to the

2 railways.

3 I did occasionally repair radio stations,

4 radio transmitters that were brought to my workshop

5 and, after that, I became more involved, because there

6 were a lot of failures and I needed to be more active

7 in the area of communications and my superior was

8 Mr. Arsen Rizvanovic, as I said.

9 Q. When did Mr. Rizvanovic become your superior

10 -- on 20 May?

11 A. I do not know when he was appointed as chief

12 of communications, but it was about that time

13 that I started receiving suggestions from him and ideas

14 as to what needed to be done, and I turned these ideas

15 into practice.

16 Q. Even if you do not know the exact date, would

17 you agree with me that, after some time in the latter

18 part of May, Mr. Rizvanovic was your superior in the TO;

19 is that correct?

20 A. I do not remember exactly, because I did not

21 keep any records. I remember dates linked to the

22 railways, and later on as the fighting escalated, then

23 I remember some details -- either I was upset or for

24 some other reason, but I cannot remember when Arsen

25 Rizvanovic became head of the department and started

Page 11063

1 giving me orders -- I really could not tell you.

2 Q. Let us talk about it in terms of when the

3 railroad started. Was Mr. Rizvanovic your superior at

4 the time when you worked on starting up the railway?

5 A. I did not quite understand you. Is your

6 question whether he was my superior in the railroad or

7 in the army, Mr. Rizvanovic?

8 Q. I am asking you about who was your superior

9 in the TO. I am just asking you about the time when

10 you were working on the railway -- I am not asking you

11 about who was your superior for the purposes of working

12 on the railway, but since you said you had difficulty

13 with times and you used events, I am asking you, at the

14 time you were working on starting up the railroad in

15 the beginning of June, who was your superior in the TO

16 at that time?

17 A. I cannot remember that.

18 Q. Do you remember whether or not Mr. Rizvanovic

19 was your superior in July 1992?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. And, before Mr. Rizvanovic was your superior,

22 was there someone else who was your superior before

23 him?

24 A. You see, I was a kind of freelancer, one

25 might say, and although I did offer my services, my

Page 11064

1 workshop, I would usually address somebody in the TO.

2 On one occasion, I think somebody called Seki --

3 whether his name is Pajic or something I am not sure --

4 -- Seki they called him, and I offered this workshop

5 and then he said yes, we should relocate it to Zejnil's

6 house, but as to who was my superior at the time,

7 because as I have just said, I was working in the

8 crisis staff in the railways at the time, and taking

9 care of the train transport.

10 Q. Let us go higher up. Who was the commander

11 of the TO in May 1992?

12 A. They were changed. I remember somebody

13 Redzepagic, then Boric, then Ramic -- those were the

14 people, roughly.

15 Q. Do you know roughly when each one of those

16 people was head of the TO -- the approximate time

17 period?

18 A. No, I could not say. I just know that Ramic,

19 for instance, was the last commander until I think the

20 middle of September or October -- I am not quite sure.

21 Q. And if I understood you correctly, on direct,

22 there was some time in June after the operation in

23 Borci started when Mr. Cerovac became commander of the

24 TO; is that correct?

25 A. No, no, no -- you are talking about the

Page 11065

1 Operation Borci, or Operation Oganj?

2 Q. I believe it was Operation Oganj?

3 A. Operation Oganj -- the commander at the time

4 was Esad Ramic.

5 Q. And did you not indicate that at some point

6 he became injured and then Mr. Cerovac became the

7 commander?

8 A. Yes, yes.

9 Q. And approximately what month was this?

10 A. I said it was somewhere mid way into the

11 Operation Oganj -- if it lasted from the end of June

12 until the beginning of August, then, logically, it must

13 have been somewhere around the middle of July.

14 Q. And how long did Mr. Cerovac -- how long was

15 he the commander of the Konjic TO?

16 A. I do not know.

17 Q. Sir, it is correct, is it not, that the war

18 presidency is the body that appointed Mr. Ramic and

19 Mr. Boric and the commanders of the TO -- is it not?

20 A. I am a technical person and I was never

21 interested in politics in the least, so I really do not

22 know who or when or even now who these people would be.

23 Q. Sir, is it correct to say that you were not

24 interested in politics and you were not interested in

25 military structures or hierarchy, either, were you?

Page 11066

1 A. I was not certainly interested in politics --

2 ever. As for the defence of the country, I was

3 interested in that. I wanted to help as much as

4 I could with my expertise regarding electrotechnical

5 communications means, and I was not really interested

6 in who would give me the order; I just wanted him to

7 show me a paper showing that he was a man of superior

8 authority and I would do as he said and who appointed

9 him is something that I felt it was not up to me to ask

10 anyway.

11 Q. Let me phrase it another way. Is it a fair

12 statement that, during 1992, you were not concerned

13 with defence organisation issues in the municipality of

14 Konjic?

15 A. It is impossible to say that, because I said

16 I worked on the maintenance repair, establishment of

17 communication centres and, at the same time, until the

18 New Year, I was working in the railroads and then

19 I physically could not work on this double track and,

20 after the New Year, I moved over to the army entirely,

21 to help in the defence of the country as much as

22 possible and to set up as many centres as possible,

23 which means I would not agree that I was not interested

24 in the defence of the country, but I did not care at

25 all who appointed somebody who was giving me orders.

Page 11067

1 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: I think this should

2 satisfy you.

3 MS. McHENRY: Thank you, yes, it does, your

4 Honour. I will move on.

5 Was Mr. Delalic a member of the TO?

6 A. I do not know.

7 Q. Did he wear a uniform?

8 A. He did wear a uniform, because he had one --

9 those who did not have a uniform, they did not.

10 Whoever managed to get hold of one, he wore it. Who

11 was able to buy one, he wore it, so it did not matter

12 whether one was in the army or in a civilian structure

13 -- if he could get hold of a uniform in one way or

14 another, he would wear it, because, you see, I told

15 you, on that day, when the railroad started operating

16 in Konjic, I was not wearing a uniform, but, later on,

17 when delivery of uniforms arrived, I got a uniform,

18 even though I was in a civilian body, that is, in the

19 railway and helping the army and working for the army.

20 Q. Sir, is it your testimony that in Konjic in

21 1992 persons who were purely civilians wore uniforms;

22 is that correct?

23 A. Civilians could not really wear uniforms --

24 pure civilians.

25 Q. Thank you. Is it correct, Sir, at this time

Page 11068

1 the distinction between civilian and military was not

2 really very strict; is that correct?

3 A. Yes, yes. There was not a clear definition

4 as to who was a soldier and who was not.

5 Q. Sir, it is correct, is it not, that

6 Mr. Delalic's uniform had both the insignia of the TO

7 and the HVO on it, did it not?

8 A. I did not really look closely at the

9 uniform. I think he had both the TO and the HVO, but,

10 again, I am not sure.

11 Q. Sir, did you participate in the take-over of

12 the Celebici barracks?

13 A. What do you mean?

14 Q. Let me just ask: did you participate in any

15 military actions in 1992?

16 A. No, I did not participate in any actions.

17 I just mentioned that, in the second half of August, on

18 one occasion I went to Celebici barracks to equip the

19 exchange there, which had a failure.

20 Q. Sir, you testified at some length about your

21 work with Mr. Delalic regarding the railroad. I am

22 going to ask you a different question, which is: did

23 you work with Mr. Delalic at all in his work getting

24 troops and military equipment from Croatia in the

25 beginning of the war?

Page 11069

1 A. No, no. I told you I met the gentleman on 2

2 June and we worked together regarding the

3 electrification of the railway, providing electricity

4 to the villages towards Pazarici and also the railway

5 line towards Mostar.

6 Q. Did you work with Mr. Delalic in his work with

7 the military investigating committee for the detainees

8 in Celebici?

9 A. That is absurd -- neither myself nor Zejnil

10 could have, under any circumstances, been working in

11 that investigating commission.

12 Q. My question is, do you know whether or not

13 Mr. Delalic, even if he was not a member of the

14 commission, whether or not he worked with the

15 committee? If you do not know, you only have to say

16 you do not know, Sir.

17 A. I do not know and I do not see why he would

18 be working with them.

19 Q. Sir, I am not asking you to give your opinion

20 about why. Sir, is it correct that you can tell us

21 about Mr. Delalic's involvement with projects you worked

22 with him on, but you do not know anything about his

23 work or authority in other contexts or with other

24 projects, do you?

25 A. It is true that he worked with us all that

Page 11070

1 time as I have already described and I do not see that

2 he had any time to engage in any other activities

3 during the time that he was with me.

4 Q. That is correct, but, Sir, you would agree

5 with me, would you not, that you do not know what

6 Mr. Delalic was doing in those times that he was not

7 with you in May and June and July?

8 A. How could I know?

9 Q. Thank you. All you have to do is say, "You

10 are right." Sir, is it correct -- I believe that you

11 testified that when you first saw Mr. Delalic's house in

12 early June, his house already had some communication

13 equipment in it -- that is correct, is it not?

14 A. You see, I did not say that I saw Mr. Zejnil

15 Delalic's house for the first time. I said that I saw

16 him for the first time in front of that house and on

17 the ground floor of his house, and that, on that floor,

18 there was a small kind of depot with some uniforms and

19 some boots and that sort of thing, but I did not say

20 that I saw the house for the first time. I knew the

21 house from five years before.

22 Q. I am sorry, Sir. Is it correct that, when

23 you first saw Mr. Delalic in his house, you stated that

24 his house already had some communication equipment in

25 it in early June? My question is: when you saw

Page 11071

1 Mr. Delalic's house in early June, did it have some

2 communication equipment already in it?

3 A. Yes, there were a couple of radio

4 transmitters, because he probably, or surely in a

5 convoy around 20 May, which came from Zagreb, and

6 through his acquaintances, he managed to get hold of

7 these radio transmitters.

8 Q. If you think a "Yes" or "No" answer is not a

9 fair answer, feel free to explain, but for some of

10 these questions I only need you to say "Yes" or "No".

11 I may not be interested in those details. So, you do

12 not have to give me the details unless you feel it is

13 necessary to give a fair answer to the question.

14 Sir, it is the case that Mr. Delalic's house

15 already had a fax machine in it; is that not correct?

16 A. I do not remember that.

17 Q. Sir, is it correct that the discotheque that

18 had been in Mr. Delalic's house before it became a

19 communications centre was called the "Sing, Sing"

20 disco?

21 JUDGE JAN: Are you sure it was "Sing, Sing"

22 -- that is a prison I think in America.

23 MS. McHENRY: What was the name of the disco

24 that was located -- discotheque that was located in

25 Mr. Delalic's house before the war?

Page 11072

1 A. Thank you, if you think I am so young, but

2 I do not go to discotheques, nor do I know the name of

3 that discotheque.

4 MS. McHENRY: Thank you.

5 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: I think we will have to

6 adjourn until tomorrow morning at 10 and we will

7 continue.

8 MS. McMURREY: I would like to re-offer that

9 photograph of Mirko Babic that the witness identified,

10 which was D39/4, into evidence. Would it be accepted?

11 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: It is already in

12 evidence. You are merely referring to it.

13 MS. McMURREY: I did not know if it was

14 accepted. Thank you.


16 MS. McMURREY: Thank you.

17 MR. NIEMANN: May I seek leave not to be

18 present first thing tomorrow morning? Ms. McHenry will

19 continue on, but I will not be available for the first

20 hour tomorrow morning.

21 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: That is alright, you

22 are granted leave. We will reassemble tomorrow

23 morning.

24 (At 6.00 p.m. the matter adjourned until

25 Wednesday, 15 April 1998

Page 11073

1 at 10.00 a.m.)