1 Tuesday,, 14th April 1998
3 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Good morning, ladies
4 and gentlemen. I am pleased to be here after a short
5 Easter break. It is a little refreshing. May we have
6 the appearances, please?
7 MR. NIEMANN: Good morning, your Honours. My
8 name is Niemann and I appear with my colleagues,
9 Ms. McHenry, Mr. Turone and Ms. Udo for the Prosecution.
10 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Could we have
11 appearances for the Defence, please?
12 MS. RESIDOVIC: Good morning, your Honours.
13 My name is Edina Residovic, Defence counsel for
14 Mr. Zejnil Delalic, along with my colleague, Eugene
15 O'Sullivan, professor from Canada
16 MR. OLUJIC: Good morning, your Honours. My
17 name is Zeljko Olujic, Defence attorney from Croatia,
18 appearing on behalf of Mr. Zdravko Mucic, along with my
19 colleague, Mr. Michael Greaves from the United Kingdom.
20 MR. KARABDIC: Good morning, your Honours.
21 I am Salih Karabdic, attorney from Sarajevo, appearing
22 on behalf of Mr. Hazim Delic, along with Mr. Thomas
23 Moran, attorney from Houston, Texas.
24 MS. McMURREY: Good morning, your Honours.
25 I am Cynthia McMurrey and I represent Esad Landzo,
1 along with Ms. Nancy Boler, from the United States
2 MS. RESIDOVIC: Your Honours, may I be
3 allowed to address the court before the witness is
4 brought into the courtroom?
5 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: May we know the subject
6 matter of such an address, because cross-examination is
7 still continuing?
8 MS. RESIDOVIC: Yes, your Honours, it is
9 linked to that and to a number of errors that have
10 occurred during the cross-examination, in connection
11 with which I should like to give my explanations.
12 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Please, let us have the
13 cross-examination continue. If you have any objection
14 as to any particular cross-examination, you can raise
15 that. You do not have to make addresses in between the
16 activities of the cross-examination, which may not in
17 any event be related. So, let us have the witness. If
18 you have any reasons why you should object to
19 cross-examination, we will hear that.
20 MS. RESIDOVIC: Thank you, your Honours.
21 I will ask for your indulgence later on.
22 (The witness entered court)
23 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Remind the witness he
24 is still under oath.
25 THE REGISTRAR: I remind you, Sir, that you
1 are still under oath.
2 THE WITNESS: I understand.
3 MUHAMED VEJZAGIC (continued)
4 Cross-examined by MR. NIEMANN (continued)
5 Q. Brigadier, on the last occasion when we were
6 -- when I was asking you some questions, I asked that
7 you be shown a document marked 193.
8 Perhaps that might be given to the Brigadier
9 again. I believe I have some additional copies of that
10 for your Honours (Handed).
11 Brigadier, this document marked number 193,
12 have you ever seen this before?
13 A. No.
14 Q. Do you notice at the top of the document
15 there is a reference to a number and then a date in the
16 first paragraph. Do you see the number and date that
17 appears there?
18 A. I do.
19 Q. Do you know what those numbers and dates
20 relate to, by any chance?
21 A. The number I do not know and the date refers
22 to the date the document was issued.
23 Q. The date of the document with the number,
24 yes, I see, but it does not relate to this particular
1 I think I may have confused you. Let me try
2 and clarify it for you. I am not talking about the
3 number and date that appears on this particular
4 document; I am talking about the number and date that
5 appears in the body of the document in the first
6 paragraph, where it says, "Pursuant to the appointment
7 of the main command of the armed forces of BiH number"
8 and then "of 11/07/1992" -- it is the BiH number
9 02/349-343 11/7/1992, that is the document. I am
10 asking you, do you know what that relates to -- if you
11 do not, it does not matter -- the date?
12 A. The date given is 11 July 1992, linked to the
13 document, that is the date when that document was
15 Q. My question is, do you know what that
16 document is?
17 A. The document mentioned here is the staff of
18 the supreme command of 11 July when Mr. Delalic was
19 appointed commander of Tactical Group 1.
20 Q. Thank you, yes. Now, would you look at this
21 document that I show you?
22 A. May I just make an additional explanation?
23 This refers to Tactical Group 1, Konjic. In the order
24 issued on 11 July, there is no reference to Tactical
25 Group 1, Konjic, but only to Tactical Group 1, so here
1 we see something new. When we talk about appointments
2 to various functions, there are too many here for a
3 Tactical Group, that is one point I would like to
4 make. We have the orders of the supreme command with
5 reference to the Operation Jug, "South"; there are far
6 fewer people even though the operation is more
7 complicated and the command itself is more complex.
8 Here, I do not see the person who was chief of staff at
9 the time, so I do not see the chief of staff who was
10 the chief of staff from the very first day the TG1 was
11 formed, so I do not see that name here.
12 MR. NIEMANN: Thank you for those
13 observations. The next document I wanted you to look
14 at -- that should be given the next number.
15 THE REGISTRAR: Prosecution document number
17 MR. NIEMANN: Again, this document of
18 1 August 1992, have you seen this one before?
19 A. It is an appointment for administrative
20 affairs, office work. I think I do have such a
21 document as far as I can recall -- I am not quite sure,
22 but I think so.
23 Q. You believe that you have seen it before?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. It was not included among your material, but
1 it is a document that you consider to be a valid
2 document, do you?
3 A. I cannot assert as a handwriting expert,
4 because I am not an expert for handwriting, whether
5 this is Mr. Delalic's signature or not. I just see the
6 appointment for a Ms.. Nermina Bukvic or something like
7 that -- the copy is a bad one, so I cannot quite read
8 it -- Habiba Bukvic, I see.
9 Q. It has the stamp and other indicia of
10 reliability attached to it, does it not?
11 A. No, you cannot see the stamp -- it is black
12 ink and you cannot tell what type of stamp was used.
13 MR. NIEMANN: Might that be marked for
14 identification, if your Honours please?
15 Brigadier, when was Mr. Delalic appointed
16 commander of Tactical Group 1?
17 A. On 11 July 1992.
18 Q. We have seen in your documents, and you do
19 not need to go to them unless you want to, but in your
20 documents marked 64 and 65, the two appointments of
21 Mr. Delalic, respectively of 11 July 1992 and 27 July
22 1992, both signed by Sefer Halilovic, you would agree
23 with me that both documents are valid, would you not?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. And you would agree with me that the
1 commander of Celebici complex, when it was run as a
2 prison, was part of the Bosnian army and thus under the
3 authority of the supreme command?
4 A. You did not mention a name -- I do not know
5 who you are referring to.
6 Q. Perhaps you might tell us that. Who do you
7 consider was the commander of Celebici camp?
8 A. According to the research I did, I would not
9 call it a "camp" -- it was a prison formed out of
10 necessity, because of the large number of captives and
11 who was responsible for that prison, I cannot assert
12 with certainty, because I did not find a single
13 document whereby one would establish who was
14 responsible for the prison -- because of the complexity
15 of the situation and the war operations, one could see
16 that both the HVO police and the MUP police were at
17 first responsible for the prison. Who was the
18 commander, I do not know -- I cannot assert that,
19 because there is no document to that effect.
20 MR. NIEMANN: Just looking at D/42, if you
21 would, for a moment, for me, please?
22 Might I see the exhibit before it is shown to
23 the witness -- I just want to check that I have the
24 right one. I am sorry, it is V-D/42 -- it is in the
25 binders and it is in the third binder. It could be
1 left in the binder -- just pass the binder.
2 For your Honours benefit, it is page 819.
4 Brigadier, this is one of the documents that
5 you included in your papers?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. And the order is directed, is it not, to the
8 commander of the prison?
9 A. Yes. The governor or warden or manager of
10 the prison, not commander.
11 Q. I do not know what the word you have in your
12 version of it is, but mine says "commander"
13 -- "commanding officer". Does yours not
14 say "commanding officer"?
15 A. No, I am sorry, let me explain. The
16 commanders and commanding officers are people in charge
17 of units, that is one concept. Another one are the
18 managers or governors of institutions or chiefs of
19 institutions who have no right of command, but right of
20 management and, in my text, it says "to the manager of
21 the prison" or "the warden".
22 Q. When I asked you who was "commander", you
23 have answered it literally according to your
24 interpretation. Let us start again. Who was manager
25 of the prison based on your interpretation?
1 A. According to this, we see that the manager of
2 the prison at the time was Mr. Zdravko Mucic.
3 Q. You do not doubt the validity of this
4 document, do you -- you are not suggesting it is not a
5 valid document?
6 A. No, I do not doubt it.
7 Q. You would agree with me that this document
8 says -- it is issued on the basis of the order of the
9 supreme command, so that the supreme command
10 headquarters in Sarajevo would have authority over the
11 prison complex at Celebici, would it not?
12 A. No.
13 Q. What is the meaning of the word on the basis
14 of the order issued at the very beginning of the order?
15 A. What this is is that the supreme command
16 issued this order to the commander of the Tactical
17 Group and it is not the prison that is under the
18 supreme command. Therefore, the supreme command gives
19 orders to the commander of the Tactical Group, who is
20 subordinated to him, to deal with the problem in
21 connection with the prison. In this case, it has to do
22 with the formation of a commission for the
23 interrogation of prisoners. Therefore, the supreme
24 command issues orders to the commander of the Tactical
25 Group and not to the manager of the Celebici prison.
1 Q. Are you suggesting that the supreme command
2 has no authority over the prison -- is that what you
3 are saying?
4 A. Yes, certainly.
5 Q. In relation to the document that you are now
6 looking at and other documents that you have seen, we
7 have the order numbers of the documents typed
8 immediately above the date in most instances. You said
9 last Thursday that you could not tell us what those
10 numbers signify. Am I correct in assuming that, at
11 least in 1992, you yourself did not issue any written
13 A. I do not know what you are referring to.
14 Q. I am simply asking you a question. Did you
15 issue orders yourself -- written orders -- in 1992?
16 A. I was not authorised to issue any orders.
17 Orders are only issued by the commander and I did not
18 hold the post of commander.
19 Q. You worked for the supreme command, but when
20 you were working for the supreme command, you issued no
21 orders -- that is my point?
22 A. I worked on the drafting of orders. It is
23 one thing to prepare an order and it is another to
24 issue an order. No other person has the authority to
25 issue orders, save the commander.
1 Q. I am right in assuming, am I not, that the
2 supreme command had authority over the municipal
3 headquarters of the Tactical Defence -- sorry, the
4 Territorial Defence?
5 A. This means the Territorial Defence staff of
6 Konjic and Jablanica who were not within the district
7 staff of Mostar, which at that time was still not
8 functional. All the other municipal staffs were
9 subordinated to district staffs, so there was this
10 chain of authority. The municipal staffs were
11 subordinated to district staffs and the district staffs
12 were subordinated to the supreme command staff. In
13 this case, this was a specific case in Konjic and
14 Jablanica. The district staff in Mostar -- had that
15 district staff in Mostar been functional, they would
16 not have been directly subordinated to the supreme
17 command in Sarajevo.
18 Q. But in fact, they were, in 1992?
19 A. Yes, they were. The municipal staff of
20 Konjic and Jablanica were directly subordinated to the
21 supreme command, because there was no other
22 intermediate level.
23 Q. So that if the supreme command wanted to give
24 a Tactical Group or an operative group authority over
25 municipal headquarters of the Territorial Defence, then
1 there is no question that it had the authority to do
2 that, should it want to do so, in Konjic?
3 A. In this case, we are probably dealing with an
4 order of the supreme command, which was probably not
5 being implemented or it was not implemented on time.
6 So, the supreme command, through the commander of the
7 Tactical Group, is sending an urgent message that the
8 problem should be tackled -- whether at the time there
9 was a direct connection between the supreme command and
10 the municipal command, I cannot say, and why the
11 commander of the Tactical Group is being asked to deal
12 with the problem, but, obviously, from the preamble of
13 this document, it is evident that the signatory of this
14 document is calling on this problem being resolved as
15 soon as possible.
16 So, it is not the commander of the Tactical
17 Group who is involved here, but the --
18 MR. NIEMANN: Nobody asked you that, and you
19 did not answer my question. I really would appreciate
20 it if you would just answer my question. My question
21 has nothing to do with that document -- it is a general
22 question. My question is this: did the supreme
23 commander in Sarajevo have authority over the municipal
24 headquarters of the Territorial Defence? It is a
25 simple "Yes" or "No" answer.
1 MS. RESIDOVIC: The witness has several
2 times, in the examination-in-chief and the
3 cross-examination, answered this question with
4 precision already.
5 MR. NIEMANN: Perhaps I might be directed to
6 it in the transcript, if that is the case, because
7 I have not seen it.
8 JUDGE JAN: See the organisational chart
9 which is prepared and he has made the -- he has shown
10 the municipal staff to be directly under the supreme
12 MR. NIEMANN: That is a document that we
13 object to most strenuously, because the witness that
14 prepared it is not here to testify. We have no
15 idea --
16 JUDGE JAN: But that is his position.
17 MR. NIEMANN: I will move on.
18 You said in your evidence a report from an
19 investigating commission is normally the kind of report
20 that can be relied upon. I note from your documents
21 that, in addition to such reports, you have included
22 some verdicts from military courts. So, I presume you
23 will agree with me that decisions of military courts
24 are also the kinds of documents that normally can be
25 relied upon; is that right?
1 A. Those are verdicts from 1995, I think.
2 Q. It does not matter when they are. I am just
3 asking, are they the sort of documents that normally
4 can be relied upon?
5 A. Probably, yes. I did not study that
6 problem. I did not go into legal issues or the work of
7 the judiciary. I did not consider that to be my duty.
8 I am a military expert.
9 Q. You saw fit to put them in your documents so
10 presumably they serve some purpose?
11 A. Their purpose is to show that, with the
12 formation of courts, justice started to function and
13 criminals were brought to justice. That is the only
15 MR. NIEMANN: Might the witness be shown the
16 document marked Prosecution Exhibit 139, please?
17 I have some additional copies for your
18 Honours. (Handed).
19 Brigadier, have you seen this document
20 before? Has it ever been shown to you?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Is it a document that you took into account
23 when you prepared your report?
24 A. May I have a look at it first, please?
25 (Pause) I am sorry, I had not seen this one. I thought
1 it was another document on a trial -- this one I have
2 not seen.
3 MS. McMURREY: Your Honours, may we object to
4 this? Number 1, of course, the witness has said that
5 he has never seen it, he did not rely upon it in
6 preparing his report and it is just an attempt by the
7 Prosecution to introduce to the court evidence that has
8 already been ruled inadmissible and irrelevant to these
10 MR. MORAN: I join that objection. As
11 I recall, when this document was admitted, it was
12 admitted for a sole purpose --
13 JUDGE JAN: It relates to the previous
14 conviction of two of the accused before us.
15 MR. NIEMANN: I am not introducing it for
16 that purpose. I want to know whether he relied on it
17 for his report.
18 JUDGE JAN: Why are you referring to this
19 document -- to show what?
20 MR. NIEMANN: Whether he relied on it,
21 because it makes reference to the role of Mr. Delalic in
22 the document. I wondered whether he considered it when
23 he prepared his report -- if he has not seen it, he
24 obviously did not consider it.
25 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: I do not think he even
1 saw it. You need not continue with this.
2 MS. McMURREY: May I ask that the documents
3 be taken back from the court, since they are not
4 introduced into evidence at this point for any purpose
6 MR. NIEMANN: I am marking them for
7 identification. She can raise her objections --
8 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: He cannot identify what
9 he has not even seen.
10 MR. NIEMANN: I am not asking him to
11 identify it.
12 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: He could not -- why
13 should he identify it?
14 MR. NIEMANN: I am not asking it be
15 identified. I asked that it be marked for
17 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: I do not think so -- I
18 do not think it is necessary. It will not be so
20 MR. NIEMANN: It has already been marked.
21 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: It will not be -- the
22 trial deputy should not so mark it.
23 MR. NIEMANN: You said in your evidence that
24 Serb villagers in the Konjic municipality did not abide
25 by international rules of war. What international
1 rules of war did they violate?
2 THE INTERPRETER: The witness's microphone is
3 not switched on.
4 THE WITNESS: The question is not precise.
5 Will you please repeat it in a precise form?
6 MR. NIEMANN: Yes. You said in your
7 evidence, page 10625, that the Serb forces in the
8 villages of Konjic did not abide by international rules
9 of war. I am simply asking you what rules of war the
10 Serb villagers in the Konjic municipality did not abide
12 A. I did not speak about that during my
13 testimony, or I do not recall.
14 Q. You were asked the question on page 10625 by
15 Mr. Olujic:
16 "No, no, no, before those who were armed,
17 those who were hiding, those who were undertaking
18 certain operations against the State, were they abiding
19 by international military law?"
20 I think Mr. Moran may have asked this
21 question. You said "no". Do you remember being asked
22 that question?
23 A. I cannot remember that.
24 MR. NIEMANN: We will not pursue it. So far
25 as you know, the Serb forces in the villages of Konjic
1 did abide by international law -- you would not know
2 one way or the other.
3 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: You did not ask that
4 question, did you?
5 MR. NIEMANN: He said in his evidence that
6 they did not. He now says he does not remember the
8 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: It is now the opposite.
9 MR. NIEMANN: He cannot say one way or the
11 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: You put that question to
13 MR. NIEMANN: You cannot say one way or the
14 other whether they complied with international rules of
15 war or not?
16 A. They were considered rebels -- people
17 rebelling against the constitution and working to
18 overthrow the State -- whether they abided by the rules
19 of warfare, I did not go into that problem. I do not
20 remember having been asked that, whether they abided by
21 those rules. I do not remember.
22 JUDGE JAN: There is evidence of a shelling
23 on civilian population of Konjic from Borci.
24 THE WITNESS: That is a problem with the
25 Serbs -- the Serbs who organised defence before the
1 beginning of the war. It is well known that they
2 armed, that they captured positions around Konjic, and
3 they destroyed the innocent population. Whether that
4 is allowed by international military law, I do not
5 know, because I am not a lawyer, but it is well known
6 what they did. It is up to lawyers to say whether they
7 abided by international law, when they killed children
8 and citizens, if that is what you are referring to.
9 MR. NIEMANN: The shelling of Borci was done
10 by the JNA, was it not?
11 A. Not just the JNA. It was the JNA that had
12 armed them and they joined -- the rebel Serbs joined
13 the JNA, the JNA itself could not have done it. They
14 armed them and they operated together in Konjic.
15 MR. NIEMANN: In 1992, when did the Bosnian
16 army consider that a person was entitled to prisoner of
17 war status and what was the procedure used to determine
18 whether a person was entitled to that status.
19 MR. MORAN: I am going to object to the first
20 part of that compound question, because prisoner of war
21 status is a question of law, not a question that is
22 within the competence of this witness.
23 MR. NIEMANN: The issue of what the Bosnian
24 army took into account, when it determined whether a
25 person was entitled to prisoner of war status, is a
1 matter of fact. These are factual issues -- whether or
2 not that in the end amounts to prisoner of war status
3 under the Geneva Conventions is a question of law.
4 I am not asking the witness that. The factual question
5 as to what the army did and what it considered to be a
6 person who was a prisoner of war is a perfectly
7 appropriate question, based on fact. The witness comes
8 here to the court, he holds himself out as an expert in
9 military matters, he holds himself out as an expert on
10 the Bosnian army and I think he is perfectly entitled
11 to answer the question. He may not know the answer to
12 the question, but, if it is within his area of
13 competence -- and one presumes it is -- then it is an
14 appropriate question.
15 MR. MORAN: Your Honour, I would suggest that
16 the Judge Advocate General of the Army of
17 Bosnia-Herzegovina would be the appropriate person to
18 answer that question, not a staff officer.
19 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: I do not think you need
20 argue that. Can the witness attempt an answer? If he
21 does not know, he can say so. When do you consider a
22 person to have prisoner of war status -- it is simple.
23 THE WITNESS: My personal conviction is if he
24 was armed and if he was on the opposing side and
25 captured as such, he is a prisoner of war.
1 MR. NIEMANN: You have testified about
2 problems with the siege of Sarajevo and the problems
3 that created for the Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina. You
4 would agree with me, would you not, that the lifting of
5 the siege was a goal of the Bosnian army well past the
6 end of 1992 -- it did not finish somewhere in the
7 middle of 1992, but it went well beyond that, did it
9 A. No.
10 Q. It did not go past the middle of 1992 -- that
11 was the end of the problem?
12 A. The problem of the siege of Sarajevo did not
13 end in the middle of 1992. The problem of the siege of
14 the city continued.
15 Q. And well past 1992?
16 A. Are you expecting me to answer? I do not
17 understand -- yes, the problem continued. The blockade
18 was not lifted until the withdrawal of the Serb forces.
19 Q. When you were going through some of your
20 documents, you said in respect of some of them that you
21 were convinced that those documents existed in
22 archives, and those were the words that you used, that
23 you were convinced they existed in archives. When you
24 said that, were you stating that you actually saw them
25 in archives, or were you just stating an opinion that
1 you were convinced that they were there?
2 A. While working on my expert report, I have 42
3 documents listed that I found, but I have not seen
4 everything, nor can I claim that everything exists,
5 because the supreme command headquarters was shelled
6 frequently, the location was changed, the supreme
7 command headquarters is a large institution. Imagine
8 how many documents. There were 12 departments apart
9 from the supreme command and the operational centre, so
10 I did not claim that I had seen everything, but
11 according to my expert analysis I have 42 documents
12 that were studied and listed in my report.
13 Q. That is all I am talking about. Were those
14 documents seen by you in archives and taken from
15 archives, or were they given to you by some other
16 source, that is my only question?
17 A. A part of the documents were obtained from
18 the archives and a part were given to me by the
19 defence, a part from the Institute for the
20 Investigation of War Crimes. There were several
21 sources, therefore.
22 Q. Did you look at documents in the archives of
23 the 443rd Brigade, which I believe is now in Konjic?
24 A. I do not have any such document.
25 Q. Did you look at any army archives that had
1 held in Konjic?
2 A. The documents issued by the staff or the
3 joint command, those I have enclosed and I do not have
4 any document from the 443rd Brigade. I have documents
5 from the Croatian brigade of Herceg-Stjepan and that,
6 too, has been enclosed.
7 Q. The person in charge of military archives in
8 Konjic, did you speak to that person?
9 A. I do not know which person was in charge of
10 the archives -- I talked to the commander.
11 Q. What was his name?
12 A. He is now the commander of the development
13 group -- it is in the documents -- I cannot recall the
15 Q. You cannot remember his name, thank you.
16 Also in your evidence you spoke of the fact -- about
17 the creation of war presidencies, and you spoke about
18 it under the old law and under the new law. Under the
19 old law, a war presidency could be established if there
20 was an immediate threat of war, whereas under the new
21 law the war presidency could only be created in periods
22 of war; do you remember saying that, or to that effect
23 in your evidence?
24 A. In both cases, in both the old and new law,
25 in fact, it was adopted from the old law. As soon as
1 such a situation exists when the assembly cannot sit,
2 the war presidency is established.
3 Q. I see. So, you may not have said it, but you
4 would disagree with me if I put to you that, under the
5 new law, you could only create a war presidency if you
6 were in a state of war, as opposed to an immediate
7 threat of war -- you would disagree with that?
8 A. The war presidency is established whenever
9 there are no conditions for the assembly to sit, that
10 is, in circumstances of war.
11 Q. I asked you last week when you were giving
12 evidence if you could give me the names of any of the
13 persons or persons that you had spoken to -- sorry,
14 that you had spoken to and relied upon when compiling
15 your report. Did you remember the name -- did you do
16 that for me and remember the names of any of the
18 A. I am a bit advanced in age, so my memory of
19 names is a bit spotty, so, please, if you can avoid
20 asking me those things as well as numbers. What I am
21 really looking to do is look at the documents and
22 I have really discussed matters with a whole range of
24 Q. I asked you also whether you could tell me
25 where you got the document from, dated 11 July 1992,
1 appointing Mr. Delalic, where we had demonstrated that
2 the word INDA-BAU had been removed. You were going to
3 find out and tell me where you had got that from. Did
4 you make any enquires about that?
5 A. I checked on that, and I was given this
6 document by the defence.
7 MR. NIEMANN: And, finally, just a moment ago
8 we were discussing about the authority of the supreme
9 command over the municipal headquarters and I had asked
10 you the question, did the supreme command have
11 authority over the municipal headquarters? I do not
12 think that we got an answer to that, because you then
13 started to speak about TG1. I just ask you to look at
14 this document that is now shown to you and it might be
15 given the next number in order. (Handed).
16 THE REGISTRAR: Prosecution document 231.
17 THE WITNESS: I did review the document,
18 so, please, you can ask your question.
19 MR. NIEMANN: Have you seen this document
21 A. No.
22 Q. You worked with Sefer Halilovic, did you not,
23 in the supreme command?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Are you familiar with his signature?
1 A. I am familiar with the signature, but
2 I cannot say that this is his signature, because a
3 signature can always be counterfeited in certain ways.
4 I am not saying that this is the case here.
5 Q. Does it look like a counterfeit of Sefer's
7 A. No.
8 Q. The stamp that appears on the document
9 appears to be the regular and ordinary stamp that one
10 would expect to find on a document of this kind?
11 A. Yes.
12 MR. NIEMANN: Just in relation to the
13 document, you would agree with me, would you not, that
14 this indicates that the supreme command has authority
15 to place the municipal headquarters under the immediate
16 authority of an operational group or an operative
18 MS. RESIDOVIC: Your Honours, I object as to
19 the relevance of this document. This is a completely
20 different area of Vares and Visoko. It has nothing to
21 do with the area that is relevant to this matter.
22 MR. NIEMANN: It goes to authority. It is
23 put to the witnesses as a basis of authority of the
24 supreme command. If there is any suggestion -- if the
25 Defence would be prepared to stipulate that the supreme
1 command of the armed forces had the authority over the
2 municipal headquarters and could place the municipal
3 headquarters under the authority of an operative group,
4 if they are prepared to stipulate to that, I will not
5 proceed with the matter. If they are not prepared to
6 stipulate to it, I think it is a fair question.
7 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: The witness can answer
8 the question.
9 MR. NIEMANN: Could you answer the question,
11 A. I have already stated what the system of
12 subordination was. That is, the supreme command was at
13 the top of the armed forces. Subordinated to them were
14 the district staffs of the Territorial Defence and
15 then, to them, the municipal staffs were subordinated,
16 so this was the chain of command and here we are
17 talking about the establishment of an operative group,
18 so there is no direct subordination of the municipal
19 staff to the supreme command -- to the staff of the
20 supreme command.
21 So, this jump can happen. For instance,
22 here, the commander, by forming an operative group, is
23 ordering -- that is, stating -- which units are going
24 to be included there, but this is not the usual
25 practice. So, the municipal staffs were usually
1 subordinate to the district staffs. So, the supreme
2 command staff did not necessarily need to communicate
3 with the municipal staff, because he already had a
4 subordinate intermediary staff that did that.
5 MR. NIEMANN: Might the document be marked
6 for identification, your Honours?
7 Finally, Brigadier, do you remember whether
8 one of the persons that you spoke to, when you compiled
9 your report, was a person called Jasminka Dzumhur?
10 A. I did not get in touch with Ms. Dzumhur --
11 I do not know her. I thought it was not part of the
12 military expertise area.
13 MR. NIEMANN: No further questions.
14 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: That is all for the
16 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Any re-examination?
17 MS. RESIDOVIC: Yes, I have some questions,
18 but, first, I would like to ask whether it would not be
19 better if we were to resume at 12?
20 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: It will not be better.
21 You had better start your re-examination now.
22 JUDGE JAN: Before re-examination starts,
23 I would like to know, what was the precise role of MUP
24 in Konjic in 1992.
25 THE WITNESS: The Konjic MUP was subordinate
1 to the Ministry of the Interior of the Bosnian State.
2 Its role was to keep the public law and order and, in
3 addition to the regular police forces, there were
4 reserve police forces, which are mobilised in wartime.
5 They assist the regular police forces, but they could
6 also be used in combat operations. They were a
7 component member of the armed forces. They had the
8 right to arrest, to remand persons in custody, so they
9 had all the regular duties that a civilian police force
10 does and the reserve police force was also -- could
11 also be used in combat operations.
12 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Ms.. Residovic,
13 I thought you did not need any extra time to study the
14 matter, because, in re-examination, you are limited to
15 areas which are still ambiguous arising from
16 cross-examination. I did not think there were so many
17 areas of that type.
18 MS. RESIDOVIC: Yes, your Honour, I will try
19 to limit myself to exactly such questions. I did have
20 sufficient time after the cross-examination of the
21 Prosecutor, because we had a holiday recess, so I did
22 prepare. I respect your decisions, and so I would like
23 to also be directed in a manner that would not throw me
25 Now, I would like to go back to the issue
1 which I tried to raise before this witness came back
2 this morning, because I believe as the Defence counsel
3 I need to raise them with the Trial Chamber.
4 In the evidence which was offered together
5 with the expert report in part 3, V-D/53 in the Bosnian
6 language on page 852 and, in English, at 854, there is
7 a list of 32 names and in place 31 there is a name,
8 Risto Vukalo which was erroneous. It was offered by
9 the Prosecution as Exhibit 225 and Mr. Niemann talked
10 about it on page 10950 of the transcript. This
11 document does not contain, under 31, the name of Risto
12 Vukalo. I would like to remind the Trial Chamber that
13 the Defence identified the same document here under
14 number D114/1 -- it is the identical document, and this
15 document was provided at a much earlier stage to the
16 Prosecution and in this document 114 there is not the
17 name of Risto Vukalo -- it was brought in and
18 identified by the witness Arif Sultanic.
19 This document was provided by the Prosecution
20 to the Defence. It was shown to the Trial Chamber.
21 Even though this document was not accepted into
22 evidence, it was offered to the Trial Chamber and the
23 Defence also offered it to the Defence expert witness.
24 Right now, I cannot go into details about all the
25 difficulties we encounter in Sarajevo when we are
1 trying to either have these documents copied and
2 translated, but I would like to point out that this is
3 simply a technical error and this is the first issue
4 that I wanted to draw your attention to.
5 The second issue that Mr. Niemann pointed out
6 is the document that the witness showed at VI/4 and it
7 is page 896 in Bosnian and 897 in English -- INDA-BAU
8 does not appear in the Bosnian text -- it is in the
9 English translation of the text that was enclosed
10 together with the expert report of this witness. You
11 know well that this document was admitted with the
12 word "INDA-BAU" included and it was included as 997/9.
13 If you will recall, it was the Defence which
14 insisted that the name, the date and the fax number
15 would be marked, because this is a document that my
16 client himself identified when he was questioned by the
17 Prosecution office.
18 So, what I am going to say is that, again,
19 this is a technical error. The witness received this
20 document from the Defence, and I request that these
21 explanations be accepted and there are English
23 Thirdly, the chart TG1 which was --
24 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: You have sufficient
25 time to make explanations. Can you re-examine the
1 witness? If there is some question arising from
2 cross-examination, which this witness has to give, you
3 make your re-examination and he will make the
4 explanation. It is not for you as counsel to say what
5 he should say. I agree there are explanations which
6 counsel can make, but if it is an explanation which the
7 witness should himself give, ask your question so that
8 he will be able to make the explanation himself. You
9 should not keep him sitting there with you making
10 explanations which he should make.
11 MS. RESIDOVIC: Your Honours, these are
12 issues raised by the Prosecutor in cross-examination
13 and these are documents received by the witness from
14 the Defence. Since these were errors in documents that
15 the Defence provided, I thought that it was my duty
16 before this Trial Chamber to point out those facts. If
17 there is an error in the chart and if the Defence is
18 able to call General Polutak, then we would be able to
19 explain this correction. Let me tell you, if I did not
20 raise these issues, I would not feel well as Defence
21 counsel for my client.
22 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: If you have any
23 questions arising from cross-examination, kindly put
24 them to the witness. He will make his explanations
25 Re-examined by MS. RESIDOVIC
1 Q. Brigadier, during the cross-examination by
2 the Prosecutor, you reiterated your statement that the
3 coordinator was not a military position. Can you --
4 and that it was a very specific type of a role. Can
5 you tell me whether your experience and your expertise,
6 based on your work within the armed forces, whether, on
7 this basis you can give your opinion on when the
8 coordinator -- the role of the coordinator arose during
9 that period?
10 A. I cannot hear the interpretation -- the
11 English interpretation.
12 THE INTERPRETER: The interpretation was
14 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Kindly check his
16 THE INTERPRETER: Something is not working.
17 Mr. Usher, can you hear me?
18 THE WITNESS: The concept of coordinator
19 does not refer exclusively to the military structures.
20 To "coordinate" means to bring something into
21 agreement, so there was a need to link things, to make
22 them work together, both in civilian and military
24 MS. RESIDOVIC: Very well. Can you now tell
25 me, in 1992, how often would you encounter this role of
1 a coordinator?
2 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: There is no question
3 about whether there was a coordinator or Tactical Group
4 commander -- there is nothing.
5 MS. RESIDOVIC: The last question here: was
6 this specific to Konjic?
7 A. No, it was not specific to Konjic. This
8 happened throughout the country wherever there was that
9 kind of problem, wherever there were multiple
10 participants, somebody had to be inserted to work on
11 solving these problems.
12 Q. Brigadier, I am going to ask you a different
13 kind of question now. You were shown an order which
14 allegedly was signed by Mr. Delalic on 14 November. Can
15 you please tell me, with your experience, when a
16 certain problem was identified, what was the way in
17 which the supreme command responded to it?
18 A. There were different problems which were of a
19 similar nature. For instance, when we would go to
20 visit the positions --
21 Q. Brigadier, if I can interrupt you, can you be
22 more specific in your answer? If a certain wider
23 problem was being identified, what was done in 1992 by
24 the supreme command?
25 A. Yes, if there was a problem of various
1 commands of the various corps, what was done was a
2 circular order would be issued to all commands, so this
3 would be circulated around to all the respective
5 Q. On page 10945 and further in the transcript,
6 you said that this could have been a circular order.
7 What prompted you to give this answer?
8 A. When reviewing this document, I saw that it
9 was not characteristic for Konjic alone. It was a
10 problem that, at the time, was present in the army and
11 I did not know whether this was the intelligence
12 department that said to circulate it around to all the
13 reconnaissance units and the intelligence units.
14 Q. Thank you. On page 10918 you were asked a
15 series of questions by the Prosecutor relating to the
16 law on defence. Brigadier, can you now tell me whether
17 any of the provisions of the law on defence puts the
18 municipality in the position of command and control of
19 the armed forces?
20 A. I think I already responded to it
21 unequivocally. I do not think there is a need for me
22 to repeat. The presidency of the municipality has
23 absolutely no authority over the armed forces units in
24 terms of command and control.
25 Q. Brigadier, in your research, did you find any
1 document based on this law which was signed by the
2 coordinator -- linked to the prisons?
3 A. No, there was only this document which was
4 introduced a moment ago relating to the establishment
5 of the commission which was to interrogate prisoners.
6 That is the only one linked to the prisons.
7 Q. Very well. Thank you. Can you tell me how a
8 subordinate soldier, when he addresses his superior,
9 how did he address him in the former JNA, that is, with
10 what title would he use?
11 A. In the former Yugoslav People's Army, whose
12 rules we adopted at the beginning of the war, when the
13 superior calls him, he would address him, "Yes, Comrade
14 Captain" and at that time there were no "Mr.", it
15 was "Comrade" and then you would add the rank.
16 MS. RESIDOVIC: Very well. After 1992, in our
17 own army, when the Bosnia-Herzegovina became an
18 independent State, how did --
19 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: I do not see how this
20 arises out of the cross-examination. It has no place.
21 MS. RESIDOVIC: Your Honours, I am going to
22 ask that this be allowed, because there are two
23 relevant points that I would like to make -- a
24 videotape was shown to the witness --
25 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: You are not being fair
1 to the cross-examiner, who merely limited his questions
2 to areas which, if there were any doubts, you were
3 expected to re-examine. Limit yourself to those areas,
4 instead of wandering off and dealing with areas which
5 are not relevant to this examination.
6 MS. RESIDOVIC: Let me tell you the grounds.
7 The film was shown to show Delalic as a person of
8 authority -- of superior authority -- and we wish to
9 show that the translation offered by the Prosecution
10 puts Mr. Delalic in an ambiguous position. That is why
11 I wanted to ask the witness and suggest that we view
12 the tape once again to see the error made in the
13 translation and in the position of Mr. Delalic as a
14 person of superior authority.
15 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: You delight in wasting
16 time -- if you do, you can continue. I think it has
17 nothing to do with the cross-examination which I have
18 listened to. There is no reference -- there is nothing
19 ambiguous, Mr. Delalic himself was a superior of this
20 group -- he was the commander of the TG1 and there is
21 no question about that. Nobody has doubted that.
22 MS. RESIDOVIC: Your Honours, the tape
23 referred to a period when Mr. Delalic was a
24 coordinator --
25 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Let us not continue
1 with this argument. There is no need for it.
2 MS. RESIDOVIC: May I be allowed to show the
3 film that was shown by the Prosecutor to this witness?
4 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: I have indicated to you
5 it has nothing to do with the cross-examination. But
6 you are still insisting.
7 MS. RESIDOVIC: Your Honours, we would like
8 to offer a translation of this document as a correct
9 translation, and we feel that this shows doubt as to
10 the position of my client, raised through the
12 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: I have not listened to
13 any question which raised any doubt whatsoever. Ask
14 him any questions which you think arises from
15 cross-examination. Those are the only things you
16 should do. I think you are taking the indulgences too
18 MS. RESIDOVIC: Your Honours, may I -- I may
19 perhaps ask for a private session at one point, but now
20 I should like to address the -- a question to the
21 witness linked to the cross-examination.
22 Brigadier, if a soldier addresses somebody
23 without giving the title or rank, saying, "Mr."
24 or "Mr. Commander", is he addressing his superior
1 A. In our army, at the beginning of the war when
2 there were no ranks until November 1993, the
3 subordinate would always address his superior, "Yes,
4 Mr. Commander". When ranks were introduced, then he
5 would say, "Yes, Mr. Commander", "Mr. General",
6 "Mr. Colonel". So he would rank. If there were no
7 ranks, then he would add the title.
8 Q. Brigadier, if a soldier is not addressing the
9 person with the words "Mr. Commander", or any other
10 rank, does that mean that he is his superior?
11 A. If he did not use the term "Mr. Commander", or
12 "Mr." with the rank, then that does not -- that means
13 that he was not his superior.
14 MS. RESIDOVIC: Your Honours, since the
15 translation offered by the Prosecutor of his exhibit
16 shown to this witness contained those very words, this
17 was a reason for ambiguity and that is why we felt it
18 necessary to clear this up. We would like to offer a
19 correct translation of this dialogue so that the court
20 may make its own conclusion as to its --
21 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: What is ambiguous in
22 the dialogue?
23 MS. RESIDOVIC: -- as to the situation. A
24 soldier addressing Delalic does not use the words given
25 in the translation. He does not say, "Yes, Sir". In
1 the text that we were given as a translation of this
2 document, there is the word "Sir", both when addressing
3 Padalovic and Captain Galanic. Therefore, the
4 existence of this term is indicative of a superior
5 position and that is the ambiguity.
6 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: The witness has
7 explained it. He need not say anything further.
8 MS. RESIDOVIC: Brigadier, tell us whether
9 you are familiar with the correspondence between the
10 Konjic municipal staff, the Zenica staff and the
11 supreme command regarding the relocation of the prison?
12 A. Yes, in my report, there are two documents --
13 the municipal headquarters of Konjic addresses the
14 supreme command with a request that the prisoners from
15 Celebici be moved to Zenica.
16 Q. Brigadier, did you check the validity of
17 these documents in the army archives of
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Brigadier, are you personally aware that a
21 provisional command of the Group South was formed in
22 which Zejnil Delalic was assistant commander for
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Did you check this document in the archives
1 of the Bosnian army?
2 A. Yes.
3 MS. RESIDOVIC: Thank you, your Honours,
4 I have no further questions of this witness.
5 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Thank you very much.
6 I think this is all we have for this witness.
7 Thank you very much, Brigadier, you have been
8 very helpful. You have spent -- I am unable to count
9 the number of hours you have spent sitting there
10 answering questions intelligently and in the expert
11 manner in which you have been put forward. We are very
12 grateful for your assistance and for all your effort in
13 explaining so many things which were still obscure to
14 the Trial Chamber.
15 THE WITNESS: Thank you, your Honours.
16 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Yes, Ms. Residovic.
17 MS. RESIDOVIC: Your Honours, in view of the
18 fact that, at the end of the examination-in-chief, as
19 far as I was able to understand your ruling, you found
20 that the expert report compiled by the expert is
21 acceptable. I wish to tender it into evidence.
22 At the same time, I am also tendering the
23 documents contained in three volumes, appended to the
24 report, to be admitted as the grounds on the basis of
25 which this expert compiled his report and testified in
2 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: I suppose it is
3 admissible as evidence and the annexes as documents
4 on which he based his opinion are admissible. You can
5 tender them.
6 MS. RESIDOVIC: I am sorry, your Honours,
7 I did not hear the translation.
8 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: The report itself is an
9 exhibit and the annexes are admitted as documents on
10 which he based his opinion. They are admissible -- the
11 report, distinct from the documents. The documents are
12 not by themselves the truth of what they contain, but
13 they are the basis on which he relied for his opinion.
14 We accept it for that purpose. The difference is that
15 you cannot single them out for purposes other than the
16 fact that he based his opinion on them and the
18 MS. RESIDOVIC: Your Honour, I understand
19 your ruling. May I just ask that, in view of the fact
20 that among the documents there are several drawings
21 made by the witness himself, and we had a similar
22 problem when it came to the admission of documents by
23 Professor Hadzibegovic, does that mean the documents
24 made by this expert personally can be admitted as
25 evidence within the three volumes of other documents
1 which are used as documents on which he relied upon for
2 his opinions?
3 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: The annexes are
4 admissible separately from the report itself. All
5 documents he relied upon in the report itself are
6 admissible for that purpose, but all those which are in
7 the annexes which he did not by himself make or which
8 he is not putting forward as having been made by
9 himself are relied upon as documents on which he based
10 his opinion.
11 MS. RESIDOVIC: Thank you. I understand now.
12 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: I think that is all.
13 Thank you very much. The witness can now be
15 THE WITNESS: Thank you, your Honours.
16 (The witness withdrew)
17 MS. RESIDOVIC: May I ask the Registry to
18 give us the numbers of the exhibits admitted? That is,
19 the number for the report and the other documents in
20 support of the opinions of this witness.
21 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Before we interrupted
22 the last witness, we were dealing with the Defence
23 witness. Can we continue with him now?
24 MS. RESIDOVIC: May Mr. Sultanic be called
25 in. Will you please give us the number of the
2 THE REGISTRAR: The report is number
3 D143/1, and the annexes are D143A/1, D144/1 and
5 (The witness entered court)
6 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Please remind the
7 witness he is still on his oath.
8 THE REGISTRAR: I remind you, Sir, that you
9 are still under oath.
10 THE WITNESS: Yes.
11 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: You may proceed,
12 Ms.. Residovic.
13 ARIF SULTANIC (continued)
14 Examined by MS. RESIDOVIC (continued)
15 Q. Good morning, Mr. Sultanic.
16 A. Good morning.
17 Q. To facilitate understanding of our
18 conversation, I would like to ask you to wait for the
19 translation that you can here on the headphones before
20 answering my question.
21 Mr. Sultanic, did you some time in 1992 meet
22 Mr. Zejnil Delalic?
23 A. Yes. Actually, on 2 June 1992, I met
24 Mr. Zejnil Delalic.
25 Q. Did you know Mr. Zejnil Delalic from before,
1 that is, prior to 2 June 1992?
2 A. No, I was not acquainted with this gentleman,
3 but I had heard of him, that as a relatively young man
4 he had gone abroad to Germany and Austria and that he
5 was in business.
6 MS. RESIDOVIC: Your Honour, I apologise. My
7 client has just sent me a message asking if he may be
8 allowed to be excused for a few minutes, because he has
9 been here since 10 this morning.
10 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Yes, he may be excused
11 while you continue. We would not rise for that purpose
12 -- he may be excused. The security guards can take
13 him out.
14 MS. RESIDOVIC: Thank you.
15 Mr. Sultanic, why do you recollect that
16 particular date, 2 June 1992, as being the date when
17 you were introduced to Mr. Delalic?
18 A. I cannot hear anything on these earphones.
19 I cannot hear any voice from the earphones, so I cannot
20 check whether there has been any translation or not.
21 Could you please repeat the question?
22 Q. Mr. Sultanic, can you explain to this court
23 why it is you remember that particular 2 June 1992 as
24 being the day when you met Mr. Zejnil Delalic for the
25 first time?
1 A. I remember that date, because, after that
2 meeting, we enabled the first train to run in exactly
3 five days' time, so that the train started operating
4 five days later on 7 June on the part of the railroad
5 from Pazarici, and we were working on this around the
6 clock for five days.
7 Q. Thank you. Could you tell us where it was
8 that you met Mr. Delalic for the first time on 2 June?
9 A. On 2 June we met Mr. Delalic in front of his
10 house and in the ground floor of his house.
11 Q. Who was with you when you met with
12 Mr. Delalic?
13 A. There was a group of railway workers --
14 Gorlic, Ramic and myself and somebody called Juzopovic.
15 Q. Why did you go to see Mr. Zejnil Delalic on
16 that day, 2 June -- who was it that sent you to him?
17 A. Actually, as an organisation of public
18 importance, that is, the railways were a public
19 enterprise, and we had our own coordinating committee
20 of experts whose task it was to mobilise transportation
21 in this part of Bosnia-Herzegovina. We addressed
22 ourselves to several institutions in the municipality,
23 or, rather, the economic staff of the municipality, to
24 consult them and to inform them about this issue, and
25 since we had a lot of difficulty in obtaining some
1 materials. We also did not have proper carriages,
2 because this part of the railroad ran through a hilly
3 area and we needed a vehicle as well as the gas for
4 such a vehicle -- a heavy duty vehicle.
5 Q. What did they tell you?
6 JUDGE JAN: Excuse me. Leave that to the
7 cross-examiner to give us those details -- how did he
8 remember that date. You can leave these questions to
9 the Prosecutor, to bring them out in cross-examination
10 if he wants to know.
11 MS. RESIDOVIC: Mr. Sultanic, what did they
12 tell you in the economic staff?
13 A. The people in that staff told us to address
14 ourselves to Mr. Zejnil Delalic, because he was
15 assisting the economic staff as well as the army and
16 its structures and the TO.
17 Q. In the economic staff -- no, I am sorry, how
18 did you understand the role of Zejnil Delalic after the
19 economic staff members told you to contact him?
20 A. We understood that he had been designated to
21 carry out this task together with us.
22 Q. What was Zejnil Delalic's reaction to this
23 idea of yours?
24 A. Having heard what we had to say and what we
25 needed, he said that it was a good idea and in view of
1 the difficulties with transportation and communication
2 in general, because petrol and gas were in short
3 supply, and rail transport is far less expensive and
4 safer and better therefore, so he supported the idea
5 and he said he would do his best to see, with the
6 responsible people in the municipality, to get some
7 kind of permits or certificates allowing us to move
8 along the railway tracks and through various
9 checkpoints held by the military police, the MUP. So
10 we needed these certificates to be able to move around
11 unhindered in carrying out our tasks.
12 Q. Did Mr. Delalic succeed in getting you these
13 permits or permission for your work?
14 A. Yes, already the next day Mr. Delalic brought
15 something in the form of an order saying that it was
16 his duty, together with the other people from the
17 railways, to carry out this task, and at the same time
18 he brought in these permits, like visiting cards,
19 something like that, allowing us to move freely from
20 Pazarici to Jablanica.
21 MS. RESIDOVIC: May the witness now be shown
22 Prosecutor's exhibit -- I apologise, I did not know how
23 long the cross-examination would last, so I did not
24 have the documents ready, but they are here now --
25 Exhibit 127? I have sufficient copies for the witness,
1 for the court and for the Prosecutor. (Handed).
2 Mr. Sultanic, will you please examine this
4 A. Yes. I remember this document.
5 Q. Mr. Sultanic, have you seen this document
7 A. I saw it the day it was brought in by
8 Mr. Zejnil Delalic.
9 Q. In your understanding of this document, and
10 what you were doing, together with Mr. Zejnil Delalic,
11 what was Mr. Delalic's role in the execution of this
13 A. His role was to coordinate all these
14 activities, together with us, and, upon the completion
15 of the task, to report back to the municipal
16 authorities and the TO command, that is, the joint
17 staff of the TO and the HVO, which of course he did.
18 Because he was working on this task with us, sometimes,
19 maybe once or twice, his brother drove this car and
20 obtained the reproduction material we needed, and the
22 Q. Thank you. Mr. Sultanic, could you please
23 tell me whether, when you reached Mr. Delalic's house on
24 the ground floor, did you see any officers or any
25 soldiers that Mr. Delalic could have been in command of?
1 A. No, there were no soldiers there. There was
2 a kind of depot with some uniforms and some
3 communications equipment, but there were no soldiers
5 Q. Mr. Sultanic, when you met Mr. Delalic and
6 while you were working with him, did he have any
7 military or civilian function?
8 A. No, he did not have any military or civilian
9 function. The only thing was that he was a coordinator
10 between the military and the municipal body such as the
11 railway, the post office, the distribution and so on.
12 Q. Mr. Sultanic, could, at that time, Mr. Delalic
13 give you any kind of orders?
14 A. No, under no circumstances -- he could not
15 have ordered us, because we were -- this was a job for
16 railway men, and he could just assist us. He could not
17 give us orders, nor did he try to give us orders,
18 because he had no authority to give orders.
19 Q. Mr. Sultanic, in view of the fact that this
20 project took five days, tell me, when did the train
21 start operating on this part of the railway line?
22 A. The train became operational on 7 June, on a
23 Sunday, 1992. I remember that day very well, because
24 that morning about 100 refugees had come to Konjic on
25 trucks, and we told them, because we saw them, in a
1 kind of kindergarten -- I think it was a kindergarten
2 -- we told them that the next people that come and
3 others that will be leaving Konjic, even they, if they
4 leave Konjic, would not have to go on trucks, open
5 trucks, but they could use the train, as it was set
6 into operation that day.
7 Q. Mr. Sultanic, was 7 June a peaceful day in
9 A. No, on the contrary. It was a very stormy
10 day, because that very morning the sirens sounded the
11 alarm for shelling, and just after the train had left
12 towards Jablanica, the shelling of the city started.
13 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: I think we will rise
14 now and reassemble at 2.30 p.m.
15 (12.30 p.m.)
16 (Luncheon adjournment)
1 (4.15 p.m.)
2 (The witness entered court)
3 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: You may proceed,
4 Ms.. Residovic.
5 MS. RESIDOVIC: Thank you, your Honours.
6 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Kindly inform the
7 witness he is still on his oath.
8 THE REGISTRAR: I remind you, Sir, that you
9 are still under oath.
10 THE WITNESS: I am aware of it.
11 MS. RESIDOVIC: Mr. Sultanic, before the
12 recess, we were looking at an order which was the basis
13 of your working with Mr. Delalic on establishing the
14 train runs. Mr. Sultanic, based on what Mr. Delalic was
15 doing together with you, was he in a position where he
16 could order you, or where he could adopt decisions?
17 A. No. I also earlier stated that Mr. Delalic
18 could not adopt any decisions or order us, so I think
19 that that is nonsense.
20 Q. Thank you. You said that you remembered this
21 day, because a lot of refugees arrived. Could you
22 please tell me now, why do you recall the arrival of
23 refugees on that day, or, to try to put it more
24 precisely, where did these refugees come from?
25 A. These refugees came from Foca, that is
1 eastern Bosnia. They came in large numbers, and so
2 I remember that day when this train went and they said
3 that they would not have to take cars or walk that part
4 of the way.
5 Q. Mr. Sultanic, as far as you know, when did the
6 refugees start arriving in large numbers in Konjic?
7 A. In late April and early May, they were coming
8 in groups of up to 50 persons. They were going through
9 the forests and through some mountain roads.
10 Q. What happened after Bradina -- after the
11 blockade was lifted from Bradina?
12 A. After the blockade of Bradina was lifted,
13 everything went on the train from Pazarici, that is
14 from the foothills of Igman to Jablanica where their
15 ultimate destination was.
16 Q. Mr. Sultanic, can you tell me whether this
17 celebration of starting the train runs was taped?
18 A. Yes, it was filmed by several cameras.
19 Q. Excuse me. Were you present at this
21 A. Yes.
22 MS. RESIDOVIC: Can the witness please be
23 shown an excerpt -- a portion of the Prosecutor's
24 Exhibit 116, which was the start of the train runs can
25 we please have the tape played? It is the excerpt 3,
1 which is the only one that I am going to offer.
2 (Videotape played)
3 THE INTERPRETER: (Translating videotape).
4 Maybe -- I would like to copy this timetable
5 and forward it to the railway stations and other
6 things. We have established the points for food, the
7 numbers of persons and those who are responsible.
8 The transport of refugees and travellers,
9 disregarding their religion or nationality --
10 everything will be free. That is okay. I will go by
11 car to warn them.
12 Is it one or two? Let us do both -- there is
13 no problem.
14 Estimating the difficulties in regard to
15 gasoline and difficulties in communication between
16 citizens and the others who are now active, that is,
17 our soldiers in this region between Jablanica and
18 Pazarici, we found this communication would be
19 established in the conditions that are prevalent now.
20 We came here to Jablanica by train, we were very
21 excited, the soldiers escorted us and we were who were
22 there, the part of the reporter team came by car to
23 wait for us here. The citizens of Jablanica know this
24 is the first free train; not yet, as we have not yet
25 given any public statement, but the citizens who need
1 this will be informed very quickly, as soon as the
2 first train comes. It means maybe even tomorrow, if it
3 runs according to the timetable.
4 Although you were not with us in the train,
5 are you also excited about this train coming from
7 Of course, as the one who was in charge of
8 these project, I can say that I am satisfied. I also
9 have to praise these people here, the railroad workers
10 who took all this even more seriously.
11 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Do you need this as
12 part of your examination?
13 MS. RESIDOVIC: This is the excerpt -- this
14 excerpt takes about six or seven minutes and this is
15 the Exhibit 116, which was accepted by the Trial
16 Chamber, because of the relevance. Since we have a
17 witness who was present at this event, this is the only
18 opportunity that the Defence has to show what the role
19 of Mr. Delalic was in this.
20 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Is there a difficulty
21 with the role he played there? Nobody is disputing the
22 role Delalic played there.
23 JUDGE JAN: The train was known as the
24 "Zejnil Express" -- we have some evidence to that
1 MS. RESIDOVIC: Yes, your Honours, but the
2 entire 116 -- the war in Bosnia-Herzegovina is full of
3 these irrelevant pieces of evidence about the role of
4 Mr. Delalic, but the Trial Chamber did admit it into
5 evidence as relevant for what his position was, so the
6 witness here was present --
7 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: You assume a
8 multiplication of irrelevant matters to anybody's case.
9 MS. RESIDOVIC: No, we believe that it is
10 irrelevant in the sense that he did not have any
11 position of superiority, so we need to show what
12 actually happened there.
13 THE INTERPRETER: Your Honour, please,
15 JUDGE JAN: The witness has already said he
16 was just a coordinator -- he had no part in giving
17 orders. He said that. Admittedly, he was a
18 coordinator. What his functions were is part of the
19 evidence. That is on the record. You have brought
20 evidence what the coordinator's role was in the
21 circumstances that Konjic was situated at that relevant
22 time; how does it help us further?
23 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: (INAUDIBLE).
24 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, your Honour.
25 MS. RESIDOVIC: Excuse me, your Honour, your
1 microphone was not on, so I could not get the
2 interpretation of what you just said.
3 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: All I said was that
4 I do not think it will help us by competing in
5 introducing irrelevant evidence. If one party is to
6 introduce any irrelevant evidence, there is no point
7 the Defence doing the same. It does not help the Trial
8 Chamber at all.
9 MS. RESIDOVIC: Your Honours, the Defence
10 would like to be of assistance to the Trial Chamber in
11 the best way it can, but let me repeat maybe what
12 I have said several times. My client is charged with
13 being coordinating -- with coordinating the military
14 units since late May. If we do not show what we can,
15 how can we prove that? You have already admitted this
16 tape into evidence as relevant, in which case I do not
17 understand what the Defence is, or whether the Defence
18 is treated differently when it is trying to introduce
19 its evidence. That is not my understanding now,
20 because I was always under the impression that the
21 Trial Chamber has been treating us equitably.
22 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Go on.
23 MS. RESIDOVIC: Thank you.
24 Mr. Sultanic, do you also appear on this tape
25 showing the start of the train run?
1 A. Yes, I am also in this videotape that shows
2 the first train run.
3 Q. Did you also give an interview to a
4 journalist at that time?
5 A. Yes, I did give an interview to Vesna
6 Bektasevic, who was a journalist for Radio Konjic.
7 Q. Mr. Sultanic, what did you say your position
8 was at that time?
9 A. I told her that I felt very happy at that
10 time, because we were able to start this island
11 railroad. By that I meant that it was running in the
12 area that was free and my particular function at that
13 time was to oversee the electrical facilities, since
14 the person who was in charge of that had left towards
15 the end of April.
16 Q. Can you tell us what was the name of this
17 body in which you worked at the railroads?
18 A. This body was called the crisis staff of
19 railroad workers. We took over the regulations of the
20 Yugoslav railways and according to these rules, which
21 we adopted, the traffic of trains was regulated for
22 both peacetime and wartime and so we were in this body.
23 Q. Will you please allow me to ask some further
24 questions now? So, on this date, on 7 June 1992, was
25 there a similar body in the municipality; in other
1 words, was there a crisis staff in the municipality?
2 A. No, no -- there was an economic staff in the
3 municipality. There was no crisis staff.
4 Q. Mr. Sultanic, with whom in this crisis staff
5 at your company did you work -- that you cooperated
6 with in the municipal authorities?
7 A. We worked together with the economic staff
8 and I think that it was either Mr. Rebic or Mr. Dzejic
9 who was in charge of the economic staff. He told us to
10 turn to Mr. Zejnil Delalic, because he could support us
12 Q. Thank you. In this videotape, on this
13 occasion did Zejnil Delalic tell the journalist whether
14 he was in charge of carrying out this task -- do you
15 know this?
16 A. I know it and on videotapes you can also tell
17 that he was in charge, that he was ordered by the
18 municipal authorities to complete this task.
19 Q. Mr. Sultanic, let us round off this question
20 of the train. After 7 June 1992, did you continue to
21 cooperate with Mr. Zejnil Delalic?
22 A. Yes. For almost the whole month we had
23 contacts with Mr. Zejnil Delalic.
24 Q. Could you tell us briefly what those
25 activities consisted of?
1 A. Certainly. The first activity was that the
2 electric supply network was out of order in many places
3 and the long distance cables that provided power for
4 our station was also damaged, so it was necessary to
5 bridge this from another long distance cable, so in the
6 event of a fault in this one, this other one could be
7 used, and that there would be no interruption in the
8 regular rail traffic.
9 Q. Mr. Sultanic, what was the role of Zejnil
10 Delalic in carrying out activities of this kind?
11 A. As in the case of the train, to give us fuel,
12 to cooperate with us, to coordinate the people from the
13 electric supply system in Konjic and Pazarici, so as to
14 make the network operational as soon as possible, and
15 there was also a problem of electricity supply coming
16 from Sarajevo and the Konjic electrical distribution
18 Q. How long did these operations go on for?
19 A. These operations lasted five to seven days,
20 but we continued to cooperate, since our intention was,
21 in agreement with the authorities in Mostar, to repair
22 damages on the railroad between Raska Gora and Mostar
23 . Although the bridge at Mostar had been destroyed,
24 the trains would reach Rastane and then use an
25 industrial rail track to get to the centre of Mostar.
1 Q. Mr. Sultanic, in the second half of June, did
2 you also cooperate with Mr. Delalic, or, rather, did you
3 work together to establish a communications centre?
4 A. Yes, we worked on this communications centre,
5 because I do not know for which reason the HVO forces
6 were supposed to form a communications centre, or,
7 rather, to capture a communications centre that was at
8 the Zlatar barracks so that we had to make another
9 communications centre, because two were too little, as
10 Konjic was constantly being shelled, and for some
11 strategic reasons they were making several
12 communication centres so that, should one be destroyed,
13 then others would be available for us to be able to
14 work normally and conduct the operations we had
16 Q. Mr. Sultanic, the work you did to establish a
17 communications centre, did it involve Mr. Delalic in any
19 A. Not really, except that he gave us a car for
20 transportation and, as I had spoken to a colleague in
21 Mostar, and we as the railways had our own powerful
22 radio relay station of 1,000 watts output power, so we
23 needed strong installations and a generator and then
24 I told Mr. Bijgovic, the man in Mostar, and I proposed
25 to him and the TO in Konjic that this radio station
1 should be relocated to a safer place. A few days
2 later, this gentleman, Mr. Bijgovic, Mustafa and Sead
3 Beslagic, transported this so-called Harrison radio and
4 I was told that we were to install it upon the approval
5 of the TO in the ground floor of Mr. Zejnil Delalic's
7 Q. Who decided that this communications system
8 be installed in the ground floor of Mr. Delalic's house?
9 A. The TO or, rather, the Territorial Defence
10 staff decided it. They decided to mobilise his house,
11 so to speak, in the same way that other facilities were
12 mobilised -- in some cases houses, motorcars, or any
13 other such resources for the needs of the defence of
15 Q. Who gave you the order to install the
16 communications centre?
17 A. The TO command.
18 Q. And, after this communications centre was
19 installed in the ground floor of Mr. Delalic's house,
20 who did the centre belong to?
21 THE WITNESS: It belonged to the Territorial
22 Defence -- the TO.
23 I apologise, your Honours, may I just add,
24 I mentioned a moment ago that, in view of the risk
25 entailed, several centres were set up. There was a
1 joint communications centre between the HVO and the TO,
2 an HVO centre on Mount Zlatar and the third one in the
3 house of Mr. Zejnil Delalic. In addition to these,
4 there was a communications centre for information
5 attached to the war presidency and the communications
6 centre of the MUP.
7 MS. RESIDOVIC: Mr. Sultanic, I would now like
8 to ask you to look at an order which is contained in
9 D145/1, volume III V-D/21, but, to simplify matters,
10 I have made sufficient copies for the court and for the
11 Prosecution to be able to ask you a couple of
12 questions. (Handed).
13 You have been shown an order to the chief of
14 communications from 1992. Mr. Sultanic, are you
15 familiar with the facts referred to in this order?
16 A. Yes -- yes, I am familiar with this and, as
17 I was just saying, there was the question of moving the
18 communications centre to Zlatar and that the PTT lines
19 from the joint command and the HVO command should be
20 redirected towards that hill with cables and
21 responsible for this, on behalf of the PTT, was Mr. Alic
22 Muhamed. He is a person that I worked with together in
23 the TO.
24 MS. RESIDOVIC: Thank you. Could this
25 document be returned? It is contained in the volume of
1 documents, but since this order has been identified by
2 the witness, I would like to tender this document as a
3 Defence exhibit into evidence.
4 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Are you tendering it
5 through this witness?
6 MS. RESIDOVIC: The witness has said that he
7 is personally familiar with this document. He knows
8 the contents of it and the activities that he himself
9 was involved in and, in view of the relevance of the
10 document and the communications centre --
11 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Was it directed to
12 him? He is not the maker -- it was not even directed
13 to him.
14 MS. RESIDOVIC: Can it be marked for
15 identification then as a Defence document, please?
16 Then we shall tender it through another witness.
17 THE REGISTRAR: It has been marked Defence
18 Exhibit D163/1.
19 MS. RESIDOVIC: I should now like the witness
20 to be shown another exhibit, which is contained in
21 D144/1 -- this is volume two of the evidence in support
22 of the opinions of the expert opinion -- to be more
23 precise, V/18. I have a sufficient number of copies
24 for the court and for the witness and for the
25 Prosecutor. Could it be marked first for
2 Mr. Sultanic, have you looked at the
3 document? (Handed).
4 A. Yes, I have looked at it. It is clear to me
5 what it deals with.
6 Q. Mr. Sultanic, do you know Mr. Muhamed Alic?
7 A. Yes, I do know Muhamed Alic. He worked as
8 head of a maintenance unit for maintenance of lines in
9 the post office in Konjic.
10 Q. Did he have any other function in between the
11 post office as a civilian institution and the
12 communication centre that you maintained?
13 A. He coordinated work of the post office with
14 the needs of the civilian and military authorities.
15 Q. Mr. Sultanic, are you aware that, apart from
16 Mr. Alic, there were other coordinators in Konjic
17 coordinating between various civilian and military
18 bodies in various areas?
19 A. Yes, there were coordinators, as, for
20 instance, Benadijn Alogic, who coordinated the civilian
21 and military bodies, and he worked in a timber
22 processing company making beds, ammunition boxes and
23 other supplies for the army.
24 Q. Thank you. In view of the activities you
25 were engaged in at the time, can you tell us whether
1 you know who were the commanders of the TO staff in
2 Konjic, or the HVO commanders?
3 A. Yes, I know. There was a joint command and
4 heading it was Mr. Esad Ramic on behalf of the TO and
5 Dinko Zebic on behalf of the HVO.
6 Q. In view of the fact that, throughout that
7 period -- we are talking about May, June and later July
8 as well -- in view of the fact that you were in Konjic
9 then and actively involved in communications, do you
10 know whether at any point in time Mr. Zejnil Delalic was
11 commander of the TO staff?
12 A. No, he was not ever, nor was he a member of
13 the staff, nor member of any body in the Konjic
14 municipality or any institution.
15 Q. Do you know whether he performed any
16 political function in Konjic at the time?
17 A. You mean whether he led a Party or something
18 like that?
19 Q. Yes, yes.
20 A. No, the President of the SDA Party was at the
21 time Mr. Nusmir Hadzihuseinovic, but he had nothing to
22 do with the Party, because he had just come from
23 Austria to attend his brother's funeral in April, so
24 that he was not there at the time of the elections, and
25 all these bodies were elected at the elections.
1 Q. Thank you. Mr. Sultanic, after completing the
2 installation of the communications centre in Zejnil
3 Delalic's house, did you continue to cooperate with him
4 in other areas?
5 A. Yes. I mentioned a moment ago that our
6 intention was an intention that was realised to a
7 certain point, to set into operation the railway line
8 in the direction of Mostar and we repaired the network
9 as far as the station at Vojno -- it is between Raska
10 Gora and Rastane and just below that was a source from
11 which Mostar was supplied with drinking water and the
12 railway line was cut there. There was a gap of about
13 five metres so we stopped there and I think it was
14 around 26 June that I went to Mostar on a bus --
15 Q. Will you please tell us what this has to do
16 with Mr. Delalic? Please do not go into any details
17 about your own activities, but tell us what those
18 activities have to do with any relationship that you
19 may have had with Mr. Delalic at the time?
20 A. Yes, certainly. He was always at our service
21 in all those activities regarding the procurement of
22 materials, vehicles and fuel that we used to travel
23 towards Mostar.
24 Q. Mr. Sultanic, if I understood you well, you
25 were partly employed in the railways and partly in the
1 communications centres. Did you have any duties when
2 the Operation Borci was in preparation and, if you did,
3 would you please explain what your role was?
4 A. Yes. I had an assignment as an electrical
5 engineer, specialising in low power, and I was quite
6 well versed in radio-communications from before. I was
7 given the task to set up a number of centres to provide
8 the electricity supply, generators, batteries, antennas
9 and everything else.
10 Q. And where did you set up those mini centres
11 and for what purpose?
12 A. As the region around Konjic is a mountainous
13 region and the front of the Konjic army was a very long
14 one, several mini centres needed to be set up and since
15 we were using low power equipment, up to 2 watts, and
16 we did not have any more powerful equipment, so that we
17 used short-wave stations from the command to these
18 outposts, which we marked as positions. The whole
19 operation was called Operation Oganj or "Fire" and the
20 positions were Oganj 1, 2, 3 and so on.
21 From these centres ultra short-wave or
22 frequency modulation links were established (FM links)
23 to other units -- the commanders of units participating
24 in the operation, and some of those, or, rather, these
25 mini centres had the task to provide logistic support
1 to the military forces on the ground.
2 Q. Mr. Sultanic, can you tell us where, for
3 instance, this station known as Oganj 1 was situated?
4 A. Oganj 1 was at Vranjske Stijene, which is
5 about 35 kilometres from Konjic.
6 Q. Tell me, please, Mr. Sultanic, since you said
7 that the operation was codenamed "Oganj", do you know
8 who was the commander of this operation?
9 A. At first, it was Mr. Esad Ramic and about 15
10 or 20 days into the operation he was either wounded or
11 something -- in any case, he did not continue to be in
12 charge and then Mr. Cerovac -- I have forgotten his
13 name --
14 Q. Never mind, Mr. Sultanic, it does not matter.
15 Tell me, please, do you know what was the role of
16 Mr. Zejnil Delalic in this operation?
17 A. In good part, yes, I am, even though I was
18 not with him, but I knew what he was doing, because we
19 frequently received messages from them up there asking
20 us to send in fresh forces or ammunition or food, so he
21 just received these requests from the commanders out in
22 the field, or from the command post where Mr. Ramic and
23 Mr. Cerovac were, as to what was needed for the forces.
24 Q. Since you were occasionally in the
25 communications centre in the municipal staff, do you
1 know in which of these mini centres which you
2 established -- in which of these Mr. Zejnil Delalic was?
3 A. I am sorry, I did not understand you well.
4 Q. Given what you have just testified to, can
5 you tell us in which of these mini centres which were
6 established, Oganj 1, 2, 3, in which of those
7 Mr. Delalic was?
8 A. He was at Oganj 1.
9 Q. In this area was there also some artillery?
10 A. No. Artillery was about 15 kilometres away
11 from that area.
12 Q. Thank you. Mr. Sultanic, do you know whether
13 there was a time when Zejnil Delalic was appointed to a
14 commanding military position?
15 A. Yes, I know that some time in late July 1992,
16 a messenger, a courier, came from Fojnica, some place,
17 and he said, "I need to find Zejnil" and he was going
18 to replace Mr. Mustafa Polutak.
19 Q. What was the duty that he was going to take
21 A. The duty of Mustafa Polutak was the command
22 of TG1 which was in Pazaric and I also personally knew
23 Mr. Mustafa Polutak.
24 Q. You say late July -- what does that
25 mean "late July" in terms of your testifying before
1 this Trial Chamber and in the light of the events that
2 took place?
3 A. Yes, maybe two or three last days of July --
4 between 29 and 31 July, in that period -- that would be
5 the period.
6 Q. Mr. Sultanic, since you were occasionally in
7 this communications centre, can you tell me whether,
8 after this appointment of Mr. Delalic, did you contact
9 Mr. Delalic when you heard that he was appointed
10 commander of Tactical Group 1?
11 A. Yes -- yes, I did. I personally passed this
12 message on to him, even though that was not strictly
13 speaking my duty, my function, but I was proud that a
14 local from our town was appointed a commander of a
15 military structure like TG1, because its objective was
16 the lifting of the siege of Sarajevo.
17 Q. Mr. Sultanic, what do you know about the fact
18 that Zejnil Delalic was one of the persons who used
19 these command posts as a commander of the Tactical
20 Group 1 of this communications centre, that is?
21 A. Yes, of course, but this was infrequent,
22 because he went up to Pazaric, he was up in Mount Igman
23 around, that area, so he was in the communications
24 centre. Maybe he used it when he came back home for a
25 change of clothes, or when he came back home to do
1 something else.
2 Q. I believe that you have already stated this
3 before, but let me ask you again: do you know where
4 the seat of the Tactical Group 1 was?
5 A. Yes, I knew that the centre was in Pazaric in
6 the barracks which, before the war, belonged to the
8 Q. Mr. Sultanic, you testified that Mr. Delalic
9 became the commander of Tactical Group 1 at one point
10 and did he become a person of superior authority to
12 A. Not at all, because we were within the
13 authority of the Territorial Defence staff, which later
14 became part of the army structure when the brigades
15 were formed, but anybody could use the centre, whoever
16 had a need for it -- they would come to the centre,
17 they would bring -- let us say, a courier would come
18 and bring a telegram and they would be coded and they
19 would be sent out.
20 Q. Who was the head of the communications
22 A. The head of the communications centre of this
23 TO staff was Mr. Arsen Rizvanovic.
24 Q. Do you know who appointed him to that duty?
25 A. Yes, I do know -- he was appointed by Mr. Esad
1 Ramic, the commander of TO, just as he appointed me to
2 the position in charge of the technical facilities.
3 Q. Where did you keep your communications
4 equipment for a while?
5 A. If you mean my own --
6 Q. Yes.
7 A. Yes, my equipment was in my workshop, that
8 is, my personal workshop five kilometres out of Konjic.
9 Q. Did there come a time when you moved it to
10 Mr. Delalic's house?
11 A. Yes, I moved it around 1 July. This was in
12 the course of the Operation Borci and the equipment was
13 breaking down. We had some units which were being
14 prepared. This was west of Konjic in Buturic Polje.
15 They needed such equipment and I suggested to the
16 municipal headquarters to transfer my equipment out of
17 Konjic and they said that the communications centre at
18 Zejnil's house was very well equipped, so maybe
19 I should move my workshop there, and I was already
20 familiar with this radio system, Harrison -- this is
21 what railways were using before the war to send their
22 own communications.
23 Q. Thank you. Mr. Sultanic, was this
24 communications centre later, after the parting of the
25 ways with the HVO, that is, after July, was this
1 communications centre frequented by many users?
2 A. Yes, very much so, because all kinds of
3 people were asking to have their messages sent to
4 Sarajevo, Visoko, Mostar -- that is through this
5 Harrison system, and there was other equipment there,
6 too, so we were in the way of one another, and I had a
7 team of these mechanics or something, and then we said,
8 "Give us another room. We need another place to work
9 in peace" and we were not going to bother others and
10 they were not going to bother us. So we got one in
11 Varda, I believe -- there was a school there where the
12 TO moved its headquarters after parting ways with the
14 Q. You said that Harrison is a pretty powerful
15 equipment. Tell me, after the installation of the
16 Harrison system, were there still problems in
17 communicating with the capital city?
18 A. Yes, there were problems, given that the
19 Harrison is the KT equipment. I do not know if
20 I should -- the distance is too short -- 50 to 60
21 kilometres, so this equipment goes far beyond that, so
22 it cannot work on such a short distance, so we worked
23 with the FM equipment and, for a while, we sent the
24 signal to Mostar, because Mostar was further away and
25 through Mostar we were bouncing them to Sarajevo. But
1 obviously there were frequent shortages of electricity
2 and gas in Sarajevo, so a number of these messages and
3 a number of orders that were supposed to be delivered
4 in this manner were actually delivered through
5 messengers or couriers.
6 Q. Mr. Sultanic, let me move to another area.
7 Can you tell me whether, at any time, while you were on
8 this post, did you ever go to the Celebici barracks?
9 A. Yes. I did go.
10 Q. How often did you go to the Celebici
12 A. In 1992 I went once, but in 1994 and 1995
13 I may have gone a few more times for different
14 reasons. The first time was after 10 August -- maybe
15 around 15 August -- somewhere in between those two
16 dates. At any rate, it was either mid August or early
17 in the latter part of August.
18 Q. Mr. Sultanic, why did you go to Celebici -- to
19 these barracks?
20 A. There was a telephone exchange there that was
21 used by the former JNA, which had broken down, so I was
22 asked to go over there to see if I could repair it with
23 my men and make it operational.
24 Q. Thank you. Tell me, after Mr. Delalic took
25 over as a commander of TG1 and went to Pazaric and
1 after you transferred your private workshop to the
2 3 May school, did you have an opportunity to get in
3 touch with Mr. Zejnil Delalic?
4 A. Very rarely. If there was a need for me to
5 do something in the communications centre and he
6 happened to be there -- if he happened to come back
7 home, then we would see one another. We may have seen
8 each other once in Pazaric when there was an operation
9 that was going to take place at Ormanj and we were
10 supposed to install some equipment there and power it.
11 Q. Mr. Sultanic, while you were in the
12 communications centre in Delalic's house, did you
13 notice that there was some kind of an archive there?
14 A. There was no archive there. It was just a
15 log that was kept by the radio operators; in other
16 words, they just logged down everything that they
17 received and sent -- you know, the messages. That was
18 the only thing that could have been an archive. As
19 I mentioned earlier, there were some kind of boots
20 there but when I first came to Zejnil's house, I saw a
21 few uniforms -- in fact, there were quite a few
23 Q. Were you ever with Zejnil Delalic in the
24 Celebici barracks?
25 A. No, I had no need to and, given the duty that
1 he was on, I do not know what need he would have had to
2 go to Celebici.
3 Q. Since you were a citizen of Konjic and you
4 worked on duties that you described, do you know
5 whether Zejnil Delalic at that time had any contact
6 with the prison staff?
7 A. No, and I do not believe he did and he should
8 not have. Maybe private, but not official one.
9 Q. Mr. Sultanic, can you please respond just on
10 the basis of your personal knowledge?
11 A. No, no, he did not.
12 Q. Do you know, based on the cooperation you had
13 with him, whether Zejnil Delalic had any kind of
14 position of superiority over the prison?
15 A. No, he did not. From what I know, he did
17 Q. Were you ever in a position, during the
18 course of working on duties that you were in charge of,
19 to see any messages being exchanged with the prison and
20 regarding the prison?
21 A. Let me tell you messages regarding the prison
22 were not transmitted through the radio and I do not
23 recall any such communications regarding the prison,
24 but I do recall a message -- somebody called from
25 Pazarici to the effect that somebody from the Red Cross
1 was supposed to visit the prison and that someone in
2 Konjic -- the MUP or someone in the municipality was
3 giving them problems. So we were asked to address the
4 issue to the supreme command, which we did, and,
5 shortly thereafter, a message came from the supreme
6 command to allow this visit to proceed. So, that is as
7 far as I remember.
8 Q. Can you tell me, as a citizen of Konjic
9 engaged in duties that you just described, had you ever
10 heard that somebody was mistreating the prisoners who
11 were detained in the Celebici barracks in 1992?
12 A. I did not hear about mistreatment of the
13 prisoners. It is possible that there was some rough
14 procedures that were used while people were being
16 Q. If you know about it, please do tell us, but
17 I am asking you about your personal knowledge -- are
18 you a witness of any such event?
19 A. No, no.
20 Q. Do you personally know whether any person
21 died in the Celebici prison?
22 A. I did hear of it, but I did not see it. That
23 is, I believe that a certain Keljo, who had a coffee
24 bar in Konjic, died or was somehow killed there, or
25 something like that.
1 Q. Was there general knowledge in Konjic about
2 mistreatment of prisoners?
3 A. No. On the contrary, many people, especially
4 people, the fighters, were saying that the prisoners
5 were eating better than those who were on the
6 front-lines, fighting.
7 Q. Did you ever see in the city persons who were
8 going to visit prisoners -- the detained persons?
9 A. Yes, I did see them, especially when the
10 railroad started operating -- they were coming from
11 Bradina, Brdjani, Podorasac and part of Konjic. They
12 were going to visit their next of kin and those who
13 were closer, they used their cars or went on foot, but
14 they mostly used trains to visit their relatives and
16 Q. Mr. Sultanic, in 1992, that was the first year
17 of war in Konjic. Do you know personally whether
18 people at that time invested their own money in order
19 to support the defence?
20 A. Yes, I do know that everybody contributed as
21 much as they could. One of them was Mr. Zejnil Delalic
22 and he contributed communications equipment like the
23 radio transmitters, other equipment -- I remember he
24 had a very good jeep type vehicle -- he used it
25 himself, but he also gave it to the army to use --
1 Smajo Kavazovic, the butcher and Mandzvke, even
2 I myself invested all my workshop and tools -- it all
3 went to TO to be used there.
4 Q. Mr. Sultanic, you thought it normal that all
5 people would support the defence as far as they could;
6 I know it is a bit of a leading question, but is that
7 the gist of what you were trying to say?
8 A. Exactly. Everybody contributed as much as
9 they could. If you do not want to give it to the
10 country in which you live, you do not need to live
11 there at all.
12 Q. Very well, Mr. Sultanic. In closing, do you
13 know whether you or anyone else you know and who worked
14 with you in 1992 -- was Zejnil Delalic a person of
15 superior authority to any one of you or your men?
16 A. In 1992, in Konjic, Zejnil Delalic was a
17 person of no superior authority to anyone. He was only
18 in charge of Tactical Group 1 and these soldiers were
19 from different units and some of them were from Konjic
20 -- let us say 50 -- some were from Jablanica, some
21 from Fojnica, some from Pazaric, some from Buturic
23 MS. RESIDOVIC: Very well. I have no further
24 questions of this witness, your Honours.
25 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Does anyone have any
1 cross-examination of this witness?
2 MS. McMURREY: I have a couple of questions.
3 MR. OLUJIC: Yes, your Honour.
4 Cross-examined by MR. OLUJIC
5 Q. I shall be brief.
6 Good afternoon, Mr. Sultanic.
7 A. Good afternoon.
8 Q. I really will not take long. I just want a
9 point of clarification regarding what you said,
10 Mr. Sultanic, during the examination-in-chief by my
11 learned colleague, Edina Residovic. Actually, you said
12 that tempore criminis suspecti, that is, in 1992, that
13 you went to Celebici only once; is that correct?
14 A. Once in August.
15 Q. You were even more precise. You said it was
16 about the middle of August 1992; is that correct, or
17 even the second half of August, that is according to
18 the transcript -- is that correct?
19 A. In the second half of August -- after the
21 Q. Tell me, Mr. Sultanic, how do you know that
22 you went there precisely in the second half of August
23 and not earlier on, or later? Was there an event that
24 helps you to remember that it was precisely in the
25 second half of August?
1 A. I remember because at the beginning of August
2 the workshop that I was responsible for, that was in
3 the ground floor of Zejnil's house, I moved it at the
4 beginning of August. Then, we worked on the
5 establishment of these communication centres that were
6 about to be further enlarged so that this was after 15
8 Q. So, it can be ascertained then that you
9 claim, with a high degree of certainty, that this was
10 in the second half of August 1992 -- you are almost
11 sure of that? Are you sure of that?
12 A. 1 million per cent.
13 MR. OLUJIC: Thank you, Mr. Sultanic.
14 Thank you, your Honours, I have no further
16 MR. MORAN: No questions from me, your
18 MS. McMURREY: Good afternoon, Mr. Sultanic.
19 May it please the court?
20 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: You may proceed,
21 Ms. McMurrey.
22 Cross-examined by MS. McMURREY
23 Q. Thank you. Mr. Sultanic, first of all, I just
24 want to start off with -- I am the Defence counsel, one
25 of the Defence counsel for Esad Landzo and you did not
1 know Mr. Landzo in 1992, did you?
2 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Does he know him now?
3 THE WITNESS: No.
4 MS. McMURREY: That was going to be my next
5 question. The indictment is 1992.
6 Do you know Mr. Landzo now?
7 A. Probably this young man. (Witness
9 Q. Thank you very much. You also discussed
10 earlier -- you mentioned about the refugees. I just
11 want to ask briefly, as these refugees flowed into
12 Konjic, they brought with them the stories from their
13 villages and towns about murder, rape and destruction.
14 They related these stories to the people of Konjic, did
15 they not?
16 A. Certainly, yes. There were terrible stories,
17 hard to believe.
18 Q. These stories placed in the hearts and minds
19 of the people in Konjic a sense of panic and fear, did
20 they not?
21 A. It was quite unbelievable. Their stories
22 impressed people so much and their feelings, the
23 feelings of the people living there.
24 MS. McMURREY: Thank you. If I may, could
25 I ask the usher to show this photograph to the witness,
2 MS. McHENRY: Might the Prosecution look at
3 it before it is shown to the witness?
4 MS. McMURREY: Certainly.
5 THE REGISTRAR: Defence Exhibit D39/4.
6 MS. McMURREY: Mr. Sultanic, do you recognise
7 the man in that photograph?
8 A. I know him very well.
9 Q. Can you tell the court what his name is?
10 A. I can -- his name is Mirko Babic, born in the
11 village of Bjelocina, north-west of Konjic.
12 MS. McMURREY: Thank you, Mr. Sultanic. Could
13 you place that photograph on the ELMO. It is the only
14 photograph I have -- just so the court knows who it is
15 that we are talking about, please. I do not know if
16 your Honours recognise this man. He is not a protected
17 witness. He testified before the court in March of
18 last year. Since the witness identified this
19 photograph and the testimony of this witness is part of
20 the record, this has been marked as D39/4. I would
21 like to have it admitted into evidence, please.
22 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: I do not know what the
23 purpose of it is.
24 MS. McMURREY: I will continue and retender
25 it in a moment.
1 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: I know why it is being
2 tendered -- you have already got him to identify the
3 person in the photograph. I suppose that is alright
4 for the purpose, for identifying the person in the
6 MS. McMURREY: Thank you. I will ask some
7 more questions to make it clear.
8 Mr. Sultanic, how do you know Mirko Babic --
9 do you know him from your association with him in
11 A. Yes, I know him from Konjic, and I would see
12 him often. He was a forestry worker -- he was a guard,
13 a forest guard, but I remember an occasion, which was
14 comical in my view, maybe tragic for him, but he was
15 burning something that is used for whitewashing and he
16 got burnt and he was all in bandages, and I made jokes
17 with him and I said, how had he got burnt, was he with
18 Marijan Majic, another forestry worker. I said, "You
19 must have been drunk." He said, "We were a little, but
20 not so much." Anyway, he got burnt.
21 Q. Was this burn on his leg? The injury, was it
22 on his leg?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Did this injury occur before the war broke
25 out in 1992?
1 A. Yes -- at least four years before that,
2 something like that -- three to four years earlier.
3 MS. McMURREY: Could I ask assistance of the
4 usher again to please show this witness Defence Exhibit
5 D2/4, please? (Handed). If you will take a look at
6 that photograph, is that where Mirko Babic was injured
7 before the war in his accident while he was a forester
8 -- you have to answer, because the court reporter
9 cannot record the nodding of a head.
10 A. Yes, this shot shows his lower leg, below the
11 knee -- that is the injury due to the burn he got from
12 the lime.
13 Q. Thank you very much, Mr. Sultanic. Thank you,
15 And, also, was Mirko Babic, if you know,
16 involved in the SDS Party in his village of Bjelocina?
17 A. To be quite frank, I do not know.
18 MS. McMURREY: Thank you very much. I have no
19 further questions of this witness, your Honour.
20 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Any cross-examination
21 by the Prosecution?
22 MS. McHENRY: Good afternoon, your Honours.
23 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: You may proceed,
24 Ms. McHenry
25 Cross-examined by MS. McHENRY
1 Q. Good afternoon, my name is Teresa McHenry and
2 I am going to ask you some questions. If you do not
3 understand a question, please let me know, and I will
4 rephrase the question.
5 A. Good afternoon, yes, I will do that, okay.
6 Q. Sir, were you a member of the TO in Konjic?
7 A. Yes, for a time I worked simultaneously at
8 the railways until the New Year and for the needs of
9 the army I was engaged, as I just described.
10 Q. And when did you become a member of the TO?
11 A. On 15 March -- no, April.
12 Q. And did you wear a uniform with insignia on
14 A. No, I did not wear a uniform. I probably
15 would have if there had been any, but there were not
16 any, so I did not wear one.
17 Q. And who was your superior in the TO from 15
18 April 1992?
19 A. From 15 April until around 20 May, shall we
20 say, there was no-one, really, because at that time
21 I had moved my workshop from Konjic towards Sarajevo,
22 the village of Podorasac -- this was my private
23 workshop, so I moved it there and I did some things,
24 like establishing telephone lines while at the same
25 time I went to work in Konjic, and took care of the
1 things I talked about previously, linked to the
3 I did occasionally repair radio stations,
4 radio transmitters that were brought to my workshop
5 and, after that, I became more involved, because there
6 were a lot of failures and I needed to be more active
7 in the area of communications and my superior was
8 Mr. Arsen Rizvanovic, as I said.
9 Q. When did Mr. Rizvanovic become your superior
10 -- on 20 May?
11 A. I do not know when he was appointed as chief
12 of communications, but it was about that time
13 that I started receiving suggestions from him and ideas
14 as to what needed to be done, and I turned these ideas
15 into practice.
16 Q. Even if you do not know the exact date, would
17 you agree with me that, after some time in the latter
18 part of May, Mr. Rizvanovic was your superior in the TO;
19 is that correct?
20 A. I do not remember exactly, because I did not
21 keep any records. I remember dates linked to the
22 railways, and later on as the fighting escalated, then
23 I remember some details -- either I was upset or for
24 some other reason, but I cannot remember when Arsen
25 Rizvanovic became head of the department and started
1 giving me orders -- I really could not tell you.
2 Q. Let us talk about it in terms of when the
3 railroad started. Was Mr. Rizvanovic your superior at
4 the time when you worked on starting up the railway?
5 A. I did not quite understand you. Is your
6 question whether he was my superior in the railroad or
7 in the army, Mr. Rizvanovic?
8 Q. I am asking you about who was your superior
9 in the TO. I am just asking you about the time when
10 you were working on the railway -- I am not asking you
11 about who was your superior for the purposes of working
12 on the railway, but since you said you had difficulty
13 with times and you used events, I am asking you, at the
14 time you were working on starting up the railroad in
15 the beginning of June, who was your superior in the TO
16 at that time?
17 A. I cannot remember that.
18 Q. Do you remember whether or not Mr. Rizvanovic
19 was your superior in July 1992?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. And, before Mr. Rizvanovic was your superior,
22 was there someone else who was your superior before
24 A. You see, I was a kind of freelancer, one
25 might say, and although I did offer my services, my
1 workshop, I would usually address somebody in the TO.
2 On one occasion, I think somebody called Seki --
3 whether his name is Pajic or something I am not sure --
4 -- Seki they called him, and I offered this workshop
5 and then he said yes, we should relocate it to Zejnil's
6 house, but as to who was my superior at the time,
7 because as I have just said, I was working in the
8 crisis staff in the railways at the time, and taking
9 care of the train transport.
10 Q. Let us go higher up. Who was the commander
11 of the TO in May 1992?
12 A. They were changed. I remember somebody
13 Redzepagic, then Boric, then Ramic -- those were the
14 people, roughly.
15 Q. Do you know roughly when each one of those
16 people was head of the TO -- the approximate time
18 A. No, I could not say. I just know that Ramic,
19 for instance, was the last commander until I think the
20 middle of September or October -- I am not quite sure.
21 Q. And if I understood you correctly, on direct,
22 there was some time in June after the operation in
23 Borci started when Mr. Cerovac became commander of the
24 TO; is that correct?
25 A. No, no, no -- you are talking about the
1 Operation Borci, or Operation Oganj?
2 Q. I believe it was Operation Oganj?
3 A. Operation Oganj -- the commander at the time
4 was Esad Ramic.
5 Q. And did you not indicate that at some point
6 he became injured and then Mr. Cerovac became the
8 A. Yes, yes.
9 Q. And approximately what month was this?
10 A. I said it was somewhere mid way into the
11 Operation Oganj -- if it lasted from the end of June
12 until the beginning of August, then, logically, it must
13 have been somewhere around the middle of July.
14 Q. And how long did Mr. Cerovac -- how long was
15 he the commander of the Konjic TO?
16 A. I do not know.
17 Q. Sir, it is correct, is it not, that the war
18 presidency is the body that appointed Mr. Ramic and
19 Mr. Boric and the commanders of the TO -- is it not?
20 A. I am a technical person and I was never
21 interested in politics in the least, so I really do not
22 know who or when or even now who these people would be.
23 Q. Sir, is it correct to say that you were not
24 interested in politics and you were not interested in
25 military structures or hierarchy, either, were you?
1 A. I was not certainly interested in politics --
2 ever. As for the defence of the country, I was
3 interested in that. I wanted to help as much as
4 I could with my expertise regarding electrotechnical
5 communications means, and I was not really interested
6 in who would give me the order; I just wanted him to
7 show me a paper showing that he was a man of superior
8 authority and I would do as he said and who appointed
9 him is something that I felt it was not up to me to ask
11 Q. Let me phrase it another way. Is it a fair
12 statement that, during 1992, you were not concerned
13 with defence organisation issues in the municipality of
15 A. It is impossible to say that, because I said
16 I worked on the maintenance repair, establishment of
17 communication centres and, at the same time, until the
18 New Year, I was working in the railroads and then
19 I physically could not work on this double track and,
20 after the New Year, I moved over to the army entirely,
21 to help in the defence of the country as much as
22 possible and to set up as many centres as possible,
23 which means I would not agree that I was not interested
24 in the defence of the country, but I did not care at
25 all who appointed somebody who was giving me orders.
1 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: I think this should
2 satisfy you.
3 MS. McHENRY: Thank you, yes, it does, your
4 Honour. I will move on.
5 Was Mr. Delalic a member of the TO?
6 A. I do not know.
7 Q. Did he wear a uniform?
8 A. He did wear a uniform, because he had one --
9 those who did not have a uniform, they did not.
10 Whoever managed to get hold of one, he wore it. Who
11 was able to buy one, he wore it, so it did not matter
12 whether one was in the army or in a civilian structure
13 -- if he could get hold of a uniform in one way or
14 another, he would wear it, because, you see, I told
15 you, on that day, when the railroad started operating
16 in Konjic, I was not wearing a uniform, but, later on,
17 when delivery of uniforms arrived, I got a uniform,
18 even though I was in a civilian body, that is, in the
19 railway and helping the army and working for the army.
20 Q. Sir, is it your testimony that in Konjic in
21 1992 persons who were purely civilians wore uniforms;
22 is that correct?
23 A. Civilians could not really wear uniforms --
24 pure civilians.
25 Q. Thank you. Is it correct, Sir, at this time
1 the distinction between civilian and military was not
2 really very strict; is that correct?
3 A. Yes, yes. There was not a clear definition
4 as to who was a soldier and who was not.
5 Q. Sir, it is correct, is it not, that
6 Mr. Delalic's uniform had both the insignia of the TO
7 and the HVO on it, did it not?
8 A. I did not really look closely at the
9 uniform. I think he had both the TO and the HVO, but,
10 again, I am not sure.
11 Q. Sir, did you participate in the take-over of
12 the Celebici barracks?
13 A. What do you mean?
14 Q. Let me just ask: did you participate in any
15 military actions in 1992?
16 A. No, I did not participate in any actions.
17 I just mentioned that, in the second half of August, on
18 one occasion I went to Celebici barracks to equip the
19 exchange there, which had a failure.
20 Q. Sir, you testified at some length about your
21 work with Mr. Delalic regarding the railroad. I am
22 going to ask you a different question, which is: did
23 you work with Mr. Delalic at all in his work getting
24 troops and military equipment from Croatia in the
25 beginning of the war?
1 A. No, no. I told you I met the gentleman on 2
2 June and we worked together regarding the
3 electrification of the railway, providing electricity
4 to the villages towards Pazarici and also the railway
5 line towards Mostar.
6 Q. Did you work with Mr. Delalic in his work with
7 the military investigating committee for the detainees
8 in Celebici?
9 A. That is absurd -- neither myself nor Zejnil
10 could have, under any circumstances, been working in
11 that investigating commission.
12 Q. My question is, do you know whether or not
13 Mr. Delalic, even if he was not a member of the
14 commission, whether or not he worked with the
15 committee? If you do not know, you only have to say
16 you do not know, Sir.
17 A. I do not know and I do not see why he would
18 be working with them.
19 Q. Sir, I am not asking you to give your opinion
20 about why. Sir, is it correct that you can tell us
21 about Mr. Delalic's involvement with projects you worked
22 with him on, but you do not know anything about his
23 work or authority in other contexts or with other
24 projects, do you?
25 A. It is true that he worked with us all that
1 time as I have already described and I do not see that
2 he had any time to engage in any other activities
3 during the time that he was with me.
4 Q. That is correct, but, Sir, you would agree
5 with me, would you not, that you do not know what
6 Mr. Delalic was doing in those times that he was not
7 with you in May and June and July?
8 A. How could I know?
9 Q. Thank you. All you have to do is say, "You
10 are right." Sir, is it correct -- I believe that you
11 testified that when you first saw Mr. Delalic's house in
12 early June, his house already had some communication
13 equipment in it -- that is correct, is it not?
14 A. You see, I did not say that I saw Mr. Zejnil
15 Delalic's house for the first time. I said that I saw
16 him for the first time in front of that house and on
17 the ground floor of his house, and that, on that floor,
18 there was a small kind of depot with some uniforms and
19 some boots and that sort of thing, but I did not say
20 that I saw the house for the first time. I knew the
21 house from five years before.
22 Q. I am sorry, Sir. Is it correct that, when
23 you first saw Mr. Delalic in his house, you stated that
24 his house already had some communication equipment in
25 it in early June? My question is: when you saw
1 Mr. Delalic's house in early June, did it have some
2 communication equipment already in it?
3 A. Yes, there were a couple of radio
4 transmitters, because he probably, or surely in a
5 convoy around 20 May, which came from Zagreb, and
6 through his acquaintances, he managed to get hold of
7 these radio transmitters.
8 Q. If you think a "Yes" or "No" answer is not a
9 fair answer, feel free to explain, but for some of
10 these questions I only need you to say "Yes" or "No".
11 I may not be interested in those details. So, you do
12 not have to give me the details unless you feel it is
13 necessary to give a fair answer to the question.
14 Sir, it is the case that Mr. Delalic's house
15 already had a fax machine in it; is that not correct?
16 A. I do not remember that.
17 Q. Sir, is it correct that the discotheque that
18 had been in Mr. Delalic's house before it became a
19 communications centre was called the "Sing, Sing"
21 JUDGE JAN: Are you sure it was "Sing, Sing"
22 -- that is a prison I think in America.
23 MS. McHENRY: What was the name of the disco
24 that was located -- discotheque that was located in
25 Mr. Delalic's house before the war?
1 A. Thank you, if you think I am so young, but
2 I do not go to discotheques, nor do I know the name of
3 that discotheque.
4 MS. McHENRY: Thank you.
5 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: I think we will have to
6 adjourn until tomorrow morning at 10 and we will
8 MS. McMURREY: I would like to re-offer that
9 photograph of Mirko Babic that the witness identified,
10 which was D39/4, into evidence. Would it be accepted?
11 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: It is already in
12 evidence. You are merely referring to it.
13 MS. McMURREY: I did not know if it was
14 accepted. Thank you.
15 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: It was.
16 MS. McMURREY: Thank you.
17 MR. NIEMANN: May I seek leave not to be
18 present first thing tomorrow morning? Ms. McHenry will
19 continue on, but I will not be available for the first
20 hour tomorrow morning.
21 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: That is alright, you
22 are granted leave. We will reassemble tomorrow
24 (At 6.00 p.m. the matter adjourned until
25 Wednesday, 15 April 1998
1 at 10.00 a.m.)