1 --- Upon commencing at 10.08 a.m.
2 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Good morning, ladies and
3 gentlemen. May we have the appearances, please?
4 MS. McHENRY: Good morning, Your Honours.
5 Teresa McHenry for the Prosecution appearing with Mr.
6 Turone and Ms. Udo. Mr. Niemann should be joining us
7 later this afternoon.
8 MS. RESIDOVIC: Good morning, Your Honours.
9 I'm Edina Residovic, the Defence counsel for Mr. Zejnil
10 Delalic, along with my colleague Mr. Eugene O'Sullivan,
11 a professor from Canada. Thank you.
12 MR. OLUJIC: Good morning, Your Honours. I'm
13 Zeljko Olujic, Defence counsel for Mr. Zdravko Mucic,
14 along with my colleague Mr. Tomislav Kuzmanovic.
15 MR. KARABDIC: Good morning, Your Honours.
16 I'm Salih Karabdic, attorney from Sarajevo, Defence
17 counsel for Mr. Hazim Delic, along with Mr. Thomas
18 Moran, attorney from Houston, Texas. Thank you.
19 MS. BOLER: Good morning, Your Honours. My
20 name is Nancy Boler. I represent Esad Landzo. Cynthia
21 McMurrey is still in the United States at the funeral.
22 I'm joined this morning by David Eisen. David is my
23 law partner in Houston who has been approved by the
24 registry as a legal assistant. He will be here today
25 and tomorrow before he goes back to Houston.
1 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Thank you very much.
3 MR. EISEN: Good morning, Your Honour. Thank
5 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Can we invite the
6 witness, please?
7 MS. RESIDOVIC: Your Honours, may I address
8 you for half a minute before the witness is brought
9 back in?
10 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Just a minute. Let's
11 see what the subject matter is.
12 MS. RESIDOVIC: I have been thinking about
13 your comments yesterday regarding the presentation of
14 evidence for the Defence, and I would just like to
15 advise you that we have done everything to prepare
16 witnesses for these proceedings. We have two or three
17 witnesses who were very important personalities in
18 Konjic during the period of war, and we have prepared a
19 number of documents with respect to these witnesses.
20 We beg your indulgence in presenting a larger
21 number of documents through these couple of witnesses,
22 and we are fully aware of the time constrictions, but
23 we would like just to give you a prior warning that we
24 have these witnesses, and we beg your indulgence.
25 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: I hear your plea, but,
1 you know, in every Prosecution or Defence, evidence is
2 led in accordance with the Defence strategy and in
3 answer to the accusations against the accused persons.
4 Now, when evidence, even in answer of an accusation, is
5 put repeatedly and, to some extent, irrelevant, it is
6 the duty of the Trial Chamber to reject them.
7 Now, if you are assuming from your own side
8 that, perhaps, a particular person is very important,
9 merely because of his station in the community or his
10 importance to you, it might still not be the fact that
11 it enables us to establish the truth in accordance with
12 the accusations against the accused.
13 The real duty of the Trial Chamber is to
14 determine what is relevant, not merely because it is
15 repetitive or duplicating, or not merely because
16 counsel thinks it's his duty to present him. As far as
17 we're concerned, we do not think it is right in the
18 interest of justice and in the interest of
19 effectiveness of the trial. Above all, not merely
20 because the Tribunal is paying the cost, it is unfair
21 and does not, frankly, assist the integrity of counsel
22 who is presenting it, that is competent to project and
23 defend the accused who are standing trial, because the
24 Trial Chamber relies on the integrity of counsel and
25 their competence.
1 But if the evidence which is led exposes to
2 the Trial Chamber that what is being done is not
3 competent, it is our duty as Trial Judges to reject
4 it. This is what I believe we intend to do. I've
5 heard what you said, and as we proceed, we'll decide
6 what to do.
7 Let the witness come in.
8 (The witness entered court)
9 THE INTERPRETER: Would the counsel for
10 Mr. Landzo please turn off her microphone?
11 MS. RESIDOVIC: Your Honours, there is a
12 technical problem that we are facing right now.
13 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Why are we having these
14 technical problems on a daily basis? We should try to
15 check this before.
16 Kindly inform the witness that --
17 MS. RESIDOVIC: Your Honours, my apologies to
18 you. I actually do not have a socket available to plug
19 myself in.
20 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: That's strange because
21 you should have one.
22 MS. RESIDOVIC: May I ask for someone's
23 assistance, please, so that we can get the right jack
24 so we can get plugged in?
25 MS. BOLER: Your Honour, Edina can use mine
1 and we will share until one is available.
2 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Thank you very much for
3 your assistance.
4 Please inform the witness he is still under
6 THE REGISTRAR: I remind you, sir, that you
7 are still under oath.
8 MS. RESIDOVIC: The witness may not have
9 heard the registrar.
10 THE REGISTRAR: I remind you, sir, that you
11 are still under oath.
12 THE WITNESS: I'm sorry. I do not get the
14 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Check his own
15 headphones, whether they are on.
16 THE WITNESS: It is all right now.
17 MS. RESIDOVIC: Mr. Cerovac, have you heard
19 THE WITNESS: Yes.
20 MS. RESIDOVIC: Did you understand the advice
21 that you are still under oath, sir? Very well.
22 MIDHAT CEROVAC
23 Examined by Ms. Residovic
24 Q. Mr. Cerovac, yesterday we talked about the
25 departure of the Gajret unit from Konjic which, in
1 Pazaric, was subordinated to Mr. Polutak who was
2 commander of Tactical Group 1.
3 Mr. Cerovac, did Mr. Delalic have any kind of
4 command duty in relationship to that unit?
5 A. No.
6 Q. Did Mr. Delalic, at that time, have any kind
7 of command position in the Territorial Defence of the
8 Konjic municipality?
9 A. No.
10 Q. Were you present at the ceremony of the
11 send-off of this unit?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. If I play you a videotape, I am going to then
14 ask you whether you can recognise it. Can the
15 technical booth please play the videotape, excerpt 1?
16 (Videotape played)
17 MS. RESIDOVIC: Can you please fast forward
18 through this portion? Can you now please slow down?
19 Please fast forward for a bit longer. This could be
20 fast forwarded. Now please go for half a minute go
22 Q. Mr. Cerovac, watching this videotape, do you
23 know who is in prison in Sarajevo?
24 A. Babo (phoen).
25 Q. What do you have to do to liberate Babo?
1 MS. RESIDOVIC: Could the technical booth
2 please stop here?
3 Q. Mr. Cerovac, do you know what event is
4 presented on this videotape?
5 A. This event shown here was the send-off of the
6 unit, which we established pursuant to the order of the
7 superior command in Sarajevo, and it was to be
8 subordinated to the Tactical Group 1 in Pazaric and
9 Mr. Polutak was the commander of this unit.
10 Q. Thank you, Mr. Cerovac. Since you have
11 already testified that at this time, Mr. Delalic had no
12 commanding role, what was his role at this send-off
14 A. If you will recall, I think I already stated
15 this yesterday, Mr. Delalic, through his own
16 connections and acquaintances, managed to equip this
17 unit with uniforms.
18 Q. Mr. Cerovac, we have already heard that. I'm
19 just asking what his role was at the send-off of this
20 unit. Was he there in an honorary position or did he
21 have a military position there?
22 A. Absolutely no military position because at
23 the morning briefing, we agreed, due to the efforts
24 which he invested in equipping the unit, so we agreed
25 to let him speak to the members of this unit as part of
1 the ceremony.
2 Q. Thank you, Mr. Cerovac. The Trial Chamber
3 has already seen this material and Mr. Delalic
4 addressed the soldiers with Salam Haleikoum. Can you
5 tell us what kind of greeting this is?
6 JUDGE JAN: You can take this as a greeting
7 from one Muslim to another Muslim.
8 MS. RESIDOVIC: This is exactly what the
9 witness is going to testify to.
10 Q. Is this what one soldier -- how one soldier
11 addresses another?
12 A. The greeting Salam Aleikoum is something used
13 by all Muslims around the world.
14 Q. In these specific circumstances, was this a
15 civilian greeting civilians, or was it a soldier
16 greeting civilians?
17 A. This was a simple greeting of one soldier to
18 another and one civilian to another. He used it
20 Q. Very well. I think that we are done with
21 this excerpt and I think that the technical booth can
22 remove it.
23 Mr. Cerovac, were you asked by the Brigadier
24 Vejzagic to draft certain charts for his expert
1 A. Yes, I believe that in late '97 and early
2 '98, I met Mr. Vejzagic for the first time, and I told
3 him that I would endeavour to compile all necessary
4 documents and maps and charts for his expert report.
5 Q. Thank you. Could the witness now please be
6 shown the Defence Exhibit 145 and annex 5D/2?
7 THE REGISTRAR: Please, could you repeat the
9 MS. RESIDOVIC: 5D/2, which is number 689 and
10 690 of the English and Bosnian text respectively.
11 THE REGISTRAR: Thank you.
12 Q. Mr. Cerovac, please place the Bosnian text in
13 front of you, and if you could please place the English
14 translation on the ELMO so that the Trial Chamber could
15 follow what we are about to talk about.
16 Mr. Cerovac, is this the chart which you
17 drafted for Brigadier Vejzagic, that is, for his expert
19 A. Yes. As you can see in the lower right
20 corner, I even signed it. This is my signature.
21 Q. Mr. Cerovac, according to your knowledge,
22 does this chart reflect the organisation of defence in
23 Konjic in 1992?
24 A. Yes. This is for the period April through
1 JUDGE JAN: What year? 1992?
2 MS. RESIDOVIC:
3 Q. What year?
4 A. 1992.
5 Q. To whom were the combat units in Konjic
6 subordinate, that is, the units which you specified in
7 the lower part of your chart?
8 A. This is a complete chart. Also, the system
9 of control and command is also represented here.
10 Q. What type of lines did you use to show the
11 control and command lines? Did you understand that?
12 A. In the legend, this is the full line with the
14 Q. Mr. Cerovac, it is not necessary to go into
15 the further explaining of this chart, it is enough that
16 you have confirmed that you compiled it.
17 Your Honours, I tender this chart since it
18 has been authenticated by the witness. Would you
19 please tell me what is the exhibit of the Defence?
20 What is the next number?
21 THE REGISTRAR: It has been admitted as it has
22 been marked, D145 annex 5D/2/1.
23 MS. RESIDOVIC:
24 Q. Could the witness now please be shown, and I
25 would like the usher's assistance, this is the Defence
1 Exhibit 145 and then it's 5D/5 and the numbers are 694
2 and, I believe, 695.
3 Mr. Cerovac, I would also will like to ask
4 you if you could place the Bosnian version of the chart
5 in front of you and if you could place the English
6 version on the ELMO. Mr. Cerovac, did you personally
7 draft this chart at the request of Ms. Brigadier?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Does this organisational chart of the
10 municipal headquarters reflect the actual structure of
11 the municipal headquarters in 1992, that is, at the
12 time when you were first a member of and then the chief
13 of the municipal staff?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Mr. Cerovac, could you show us where your
16 position was in the headquarters, based on this chart?
17 If you can just point at your position on the chart,
18 which is on the ELMO.
19 A. My position is in this rubric where it says
20 "staff" and then the "chief of staff."
21 Q. Thank you. As the witness has identified
22 this document and this document has previously been
23 admitted, I am just going to confirm that the witness
24 has authenticated this document. Can the witness now
25 be shown D145, annex 5D/10?
1 Mr. Cerovac, is this also another chart which
2 you drafted in 1998 for the expert report of Mr.
3 Vacagic (phoen)?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Could you tell us what this chart represents?
6 A. This is a chart reflecting the structure
7 which shows the organisational chart of the joint
8 command of the Territorial Defence and the Croatian
9 Defence Council.
10 Q. Could you please show me your position in
11 this chart? And if you could please do that on the
13 A. My position is right here. It is an officer
14 for operations and training and this is the duty that I
15 discharged at the time. I was also on duty shown in
16 the box above. This is assistant commander for chief
17 of staff for operations and training.
18 Q. Very well. This chart, which has been
19 admitted before, has now been authenticated by the
20 person who actually drafted it.
21 Mr. Cerovac, can you tell me whether there
22 were certain minor changes which took place during this
23 period of time with respect to the chart as you have
24 drafted it here?
25 A. The first changes which took place, were
1 those pertaining to the commander of this joint
2 command. This is Mr. Ramic and Mr. Boric. Further
3 changes occurred in the operations and training sector,
4 and I already stated what those were. There was also a
5 change in the security body.
6 Q. I believe that this is sufficient, so there
7 were some minor changes there. Could you tell me who
8 was assistant commander for security in a joint
9 command? The member of which part of the joint forces
10 occupied that position?
11 A. It was a Croatian Defence Council.
12 Q. Do you know who was appointed to that
14 A. It was a man from Konjic was appointed to
15 that position. He was an attorney by profession. He
16 was the chief of public security station before the
17 aggression and his name was Mr. Goran Lokas.
18 Q. Mr. Cerovac, during this period when the
19 joint command was in existence, was the position of the
20 assistant commander for security always going to the
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. In this period, who could appoint as a member
24 of the Prad (phoen) ethnic group to command positions
25 in a staff?
1 A. You mean this, for this staff, this staff of
2 joint command?
3 Q. Yes.
4 A. It was exclusively the HVO. That is, the
5 chief of staff, Dinko Zebic, who was also the commander
6 of the HVO units.
7 Q. Thank you. We saw the charts which you
8 drafted. Can you tell me, based on that, was, at any
9 point in time in 1992, Zejnil Delalic a member of the
10 municipal staff of the joint command?
11 A. No, not in practice, not in theory.
12 Q. Mr. Cerovac, during 1992, did Mr. Delalic
13 have any position, any command position, in the
14 municipal headquarters?
15 A. No, at no time.
16 Q. During the period when the joint command was
17 in existence, was Mr. Delalic on duty as a member of
18 the joint command?
19 A. No, no, at any time. As you can tell, he's
20 not present on this chart at all.
21 Q. Could a person be in a command position in
22 the staff or the joint command without being appointed
23 to such a duty?
24 A. No, not at all. This cannot happen in any
25 military organisation.
1 Q. Mr. Cerovac, could you tell us, during the
2 period of time when the joint command was in existence,
3 how were the orders of the joint command issued?
4 A. The orders of the joint command were issued
5 whenever there was common interest involved, that is,
6 when there was a consensus between the commanders of
7 the joint command and the chief of staff of the joint
9 Q. Who signed such orders?
10 A. The commander of the joint command and the
11 chief of staff of the joint command. And if one of
12 them, if the commander of the joint command was absent,
13 it would be a person whom he would authorise from the
14 ranks of the Territorial Defence.
15 Q. Mr. Cerovac, how were appointments made in
16 this period?
17 A. All appointments were done separately because
18 there was a dual command at a time. That is,
19 appointments in the structures of the Territorial
20 Defence at all levels of the units whose commander was
21 the commander of the Territorial Defence and all
22 appointments in the joint command, that is, at a level
23 of the HVO's headquarters. That means both at the
24 level of units and headquarters was done by the
25 commander of the HVO units.
1 Q. Very well, Mr. Cerovac. I think you have
2 explained that.
3 A. And he himself was appointed by the
4 headquarters at Grude.
5 Q. Thank you. In your position of the
6 operations officer and assistant commander for
7 operations and training, were you in a position to work
8 on preparation of documents regarding, the combat
9 operations of the municipal staff and of the joint
11 A. Yes. I was a member of the body, which was
12 preparing all significant documents so regarding
13 planning and carrying out of combat operations and
14 proposed to the commander -- which were proposed to the
15 commander and to the chief of staff of the joint
17 Q. Mr. Cerovac, I am now going to show you
18 several documents, so please tell me whether you can
19 recognise these documents which were compiled at the
20 joint TO, HVO command?
21 These are documents which have previously
22 been offered through the expert report. I am just
23 going to show you for authentication, I have enough
24 copies for the trial chamber and the Prosecutor. Let
25 me give you the numbers. These are the following
1 documents: D-145 Annex 5D/11. D-145 D/21. D-145 Annex
2 5D/15. D-145 Annex 5D/17. And D-144 Annex 5B. Could
3 all of these documents be given to the witness together
4 so that he could answer the question.
5 Mr. Cerovac, will you please review these
6 documents? Mr. Cerovac, is it correct that all these
7 documents were signed both by the commander of the
8 joint command, who was the commander of the TO, and the
9 chief of staff of the joint command, who was also the
10 commander of the HVO?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Working in the joint command, as somebody who
13 worked there, could you confirm for the Trial Chamber
14 that these documents were, indeed, documents which were
15 compiled in the joint command headquarters?
16 A. Yes, absolutely.
17 MS. RESIDOVIC: Your Honours, these are
18 documents which support the expert report and the
19 witness has recognised them as those that were compiled
20 at the joint command, so I offer them into evidence.
21 MS. McHENRY: Your Honours, with respect to
22 at least two of them, I notice that the documents were
23 incomplete and appear to have been altered or
24 redacted. Given that they are not the actual documents
25 and have been altered, we certainly would object to
1 their admission for any purposes. If Ms. Residovic is
2 able to supply us with unaltered versions, then we may
3 withdraw our objection.
4 JUDGE JAN: Is it really important, giving
5 instances of orders being signed by commanders of both
6 forces? Do they have any real bearing on the case?
7 MS. McHENRY: If Your Honours were not to let
8 them into evidence at all because they were irrelevant,
9 then certainly then, we wouldn't object. But if they
10 are going to be admitted at all, because they are
11 relevant, we certainly think, for one, we may want to
12 do our own looking into whether these are authentic
13 documents and their relevance. We certainly would be
14 unable to do that if the documents have been altered.
15 JUDGE JAN: It is an admitted position that
16 some of these documents have been signed by both. Even
17 some of the documents, produced by the prosecution
18 itself shows, that some of the orders have been signed
19 by the commanders of the HVO as a letter to you. Why
20 do you bring them to the court unnecessarily? They
21 don't have any bearing on the guilt or innocence of
22 your client.
23 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: What do you want to
24 establish by them being admitted? The documents could
25 be signed by both commanders as joint commanders.
1 That's all you're trying to show.
2 JUDGE JAN: You have already said, your
3 witness, that Mr. Delalic did not occupy any position
4 in the TO or the joint command or in the HVO. So that
5 should be the end of the matter.
6 MS. RESIDOVIC: One of these documents, which
7 is document concerning the attack on Bradina, has
8 already been admitted, but what these documents show,
9 they show the method of commanding during the period
10 when Mr. Zejnil Delalic was not there. This witness
11 was preparing these documents for his commander,
12 Zerabic (phoen) and Boric. This all shows that
13 Mr. Delalic was not involved in either issuing orders
14 or appointing persons to duties. In that respect, I
15 find that this document is relevant and the witness is
16 someone who has actually prepared them.
17 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Not a member of the TO
18 at that time. He was never, and there were already
19 commanders in those places. He could not also be a
20 commander. So how can it be relevant when, in fact, he
21 played no part in any of these proceedings at that
23 JUDGE JAN: According to this witness, when
24 the attack on Bradina took place, Delalic was in
25 Zagreb, this is what he said, he couldn't have possibly
1 taken part in this operation. That is what this
2 witness said yesterday. How are these documents
3 relevant? You're unnecessarily calling on something
4 which is not bearing on the --
5 MS. RESIDOVIC: They confirm the credibility,
6 both of this witness and other witnesses, because these
7 are not just words. There are documents to support
8 these words and this goes directly to what the
9 Prosecution has been arguing.
10 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Then they support
11 nothing. The moment that they disputed; they support
12 nothing. So when, in fact, the words which have not
13 been challenged, the evidence of the witness has not
14 been challenged and other witnesses have not been
15 challenged, why are you introducing a disputed
17 MS. RESIDOVIC: Your Honours, maybe we can
18 bring it up again in a status conference. What I'm
19 trying to do is really follow your instructions. There
20 was an expert witness who could not speak to the
21 documents. He had not compiled them. He could not
22 authenticate them and now we have a witness who
23 actually did compile these documents, so now I asked
24 him whether he can recognise these documents, whether
25 he can authenticate it. This is all I wanted of this
1 witness. If Your Honours see that it is sufficient
2 that is enough that these documents were compiled by
3 the joint command, I don't need to go any further.
4 This is how I see these documents. I think that it
5 helps determine the position of my clients, as well as
6 the situation as it was on the ground in Konjic at the
8 Q. Mr. Cerovac, was Mr. Zejnil Delalic at any
9 period of time in 1992, in a position to sign as a
10 member of either the headquarters or the joint command,
11 any orders or appointments which were binding to you as
12 a soldier?
13 A. I personally as a soldier was bound by orders
14 coming from two distinct levels. It is the level of a
15 commander and the level of the superior command in
17 Q. Thank you. Can you?
18 JUDGE JAN: Just a minute. Your client did
19 sign a few orders along with the commanders of the HVO
20 and the TO.
21 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please, Your
23 JUDGE JAN: Your client did sign some orders
24 along with the commander of the HVO and the TO and he
25 described himself as a commander, although he also said
1 -- the orders also said that he was signing as
2 coordinator. If there's any explanation which this
3 witness can offer, please ask him about it, otherwise,
4 this document is really not relevant, because if you
5 believe that he had nothing to do with the TO, he had
6 nothing to do with the HVO, then these orders become
8 MS. RESIDOVIC: Your Honour, it is correct
9 that we have seen documents which my client has signed
10 as a coordinator, but my client never described himself
11 as a commander, and I don't think that we had any
12 documents showing that, but let me turn to the witness
13 now and try to clarify that with him right away.
14 Q. If there was a document which was signed by
15 the commander or the commander of the HVO additionally
16 and there was also a coordinator signing it, did that
17 mean that the coordinator was the one who was also
18 issuing you this command?
19 A. Absolutely not. The orders which were
20 binding for us, for me as a member of the Territorial
21 Defence, were only the orders which came from my own
22 commander or the commander of the joint command, as
23 well as orders which I received from the chief of staff
24 of the joint command. In certain cases, if such
25 documents existed, the coordinator was, his signature
1 figured on certain documents only as a witness to
2 certain events because frequently, certain orders were
3 not carried out, that is, certain actions that were set
4 out in certain documents were combined actions, which
5 means certain actions that involved civilian aspects
6 which were of special significance and actions where
7 the involvement of the military was necessary.
8 Q. Thank you, Mr. Cerovac. Perhaps I will show
9 you some of the documents that would further clarify
10 this issue further on, where in some of the orders
11 signed by commanders, there is also a signature of the
13 Mr. Cerovac, during 1992 and before you
14 became the brigade commander, did you ever substitute
15 for the commander or did you act on his behalf?
16 A. Yes, that is correct.
17 Q. Can you tell me whether as an acting
18 commander, did you also carry out certain actions that
19 had to do with control and command, in other words, did
20 you issue orders?
21 A. Yes, that is correct. I always knew at the
22 morning briefing whether the commander was going to be
23 present or not, whether he was going to visit the
24 front-lines, and he would always issue me orders orally
25 so that I would actually sign all the documents that
1 were very urgent on his behalf.
2 Q. If the commander was absent due to being
3 wounded or something else, did you have authority, were
4 you given authority as a commander?
5 A. Yes, that is correct. The first such case
6 happened during the operation at Borci.
7 Q. Do you mean the first case of a longer period
8 of time, you mean?
9 A. Yes, that was during the operation at Borci.
10 Q. Regardless of whether you substituted for the
11 commander for a shorter or longer period of time, was
12 at any of these times, Mr. Delalic a person who could
13 issue commands or make appointments of any kind?
14 A. No, not in practise, not in theory.
15 Q. In order to authenticate the documents which
16 are in the expert report, Mr. Cerovac, I'm going to
17 show you certain documents which bear your signature
18 and I want to see whether you can identify these
19 documents. D145, A5. These are copies, if necessary,
20 to remind the Trial Chamber. D145, annex D5/40. D145,
21 AD/27; D145, AD/28; D145, A9/9.
22 JUDGE JAN: We are the only ones without
23 these documents.
24 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, Your Honour,
1 MS. RESIDOVIC: While the documents are being
2 distributed to the court, Mr. Cerovac, will you please
3 look at them? I have given a copy for their Honours,
4 but I'm not sure about the order in which they should
5 be distributed.
6 Q. Mr. Cerovac, will you please look at the
7 document of the 25th of July, 1992, order on the
8 appointment to the command of the Ljubinje detachment.
9 Mr. Cerovac, will you please tell me whether
10 you recognise the signature on this document?
11 A. Yes, this is my signature.
12 Q. Mr. Cerovac, is that one of the documents
13 which you signed by authority of the commander Esad
15 A. It is. You can see, in front, the name of
16 the position and, according to the instructions on
17 office work, it is obligatory to add the word for, for
18 the commander, which means that you have been
19 authorised by him to do that.
20 Q. Thank you. Mr. Cerovac, will you please look
21 at another document with the same date, 25th July,
22 1992, order on appointment issued to the command of
23 Zupcanik detachment. Do you recognise the signature on
24 this document?
25 A. Yes, I do. This is an order that I
1 personally drew up and I put my function on it, my
3 Q. Are we talking about document 01234/1 of the
4 25th of July, 1992?
5 A. Yes, it is an order on the use of units,
6 deployment of units.
7 Q. Mr. Cerovac, you just mentioned the order on
8 the deployment of units, the document headed the 23rd
9 of July, but my question referred to the document of
10 the 25th of July, 1992, order on appointment issued to
11 the command of Zupcanik detachment. I think there was
12 a small misunderstanding between us. Do you have the
13 document now?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Can you tell me whether you recognise the
16 signature on this document?
17 A. Yes, it is my signature.
18 Q. This is a document that you signed by
19 authority of the commander, as is the case for the
20 previous document?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Will you now look at the document that you
23 referred to a moment ago dated the 23rd of July, order
24 on the deployment of units? Were these documents
25 drafted when your commander, due to injury, was absent?
1 A. Yes. From the middle of July and throughout
2 the second half of July.
3 Q. Thank you. You said a moment ago that this
4 is an order on the deployment of a unit. Can you tell
5 me what it actually means, this order?
6 A. This order, I had come from the area of
7 Glavaticevo to Konjic because intelligence information
8 could not reach me through communications and this
9 information had to do with the forces of the aggressor.
10 Q. This may be very important for you,
11 explaining why you came there, but will you tell me why
12 this unit of 90 men were accommodated in the barracks
13 and with what purpose?
14 A. The unit was put up in the Celebici barracks,
15 so that it should be equipped with the necessary
16 material in one place, with sufficient quantities of
17 food supplies and rations and for its assignment to be
18 made clear.
19 Q. Does that mean -- actually, I want to ask you
20 whether in the area of the Celebici barracks, which is
21 a very large compound, were units of the Territorial
22 Defence put up there during preparations for combat?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Thank you. Will you please now look at the
25 document of the 21st of September, 1992? Do you
1 recognise the signature on this document?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Can you tell us who signed the document?
4 A. I did personally.
5 Q. Thank you. Let us now look at the document
6 dated 3rd June, 1992. Tell me who signed, standing in
7 for the commander of the Territorial Defence?
8 A. I did as can clearly be seen by my legible
10 Q. Mr. Cerovac, as you see, this is one of the
11 documents on which the signature of Zejnil Delalic
12 figures. Tell me, does this signature mean that Zejnil
13 Delalic is issuing this order?
14 A. Certainly not.
15 Q. According to your understanding of things and
16 according to your experience and the rules, who issued
17 this order? Or to be more precise, who are the persons
18 who issued this order, as far as you are concerned?
19 A. I don't understand your question. Could you
20 repeat it, please?
21 Q. You said that Zejnil Delalic is not a person
22 issuing orders. For a soldier, who is the author of
23 this order?
24 A. Exclusively the commander.
25 Q. Can you tell me, using this as an example, as
1 you, yourself, signed this document, what was the task
2 of Zejnil Delalic, according to the provisions of this
4 A. Zejnil Delalic, upon the proposal of the
5 economics staff, was tasked to coordinate activities
6 between the representative of the railway station in
7 Konjic, Mr. Vesiko Bunjic (phoen) and a representative
8 of the armed structures. His principal task was, to
9 set in motion the railway line between Jablanica and
10 Pazaric, which was of particular significance for three
12 Q. Thank you. No, please proceed. You were
13 going to add something?
14 A. And the task of the army was to provide
15 combat security of that train.
16 Q. Tell me, do you know personally whether
17 Zejnil Delalic accomplished the task assigned to him by
18 this order?
19 A. Yes, that is common knowledge. That was the
20 first train that started operating in the state of
21 Bosnia-Herzegovina under the control of the army.
22 Q. So, in fact, I want to know whether this was
23 a task given to Zejnil Delalic or was it something
25 A. Yes, absolutely, that was a task given to
1 Zejnil Delalic.
2 Q. Thank you.
3 MS. RESIDOVIC: Your Honours, as this witness
4 has identified his signatures on all these documents,
5 and as I consider them to be relevant, I tender them
6 into evidence as Defence exhibits. Thank you very
7 much. May I just check with the registry? These
8 documents have been entered into the record and the
9 number under which they were identified; isn't that
11 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, they have been admitted
12 under the number they have been marked.
13 MS. RESIDOVIC: Thank you.
14 Q. Mr. Cerovac, I should now like to move on to
15 another area having to do with some of the positions in
16 the staff. Will you tell us what was the function of
17 the headquarters of the Stan (phoen) in the joint
18 command, the Stan being the joint headquarters?
19 A. In the joint command, we had security,
20 security for the command itself, distribution of mail,
21 food for members of the command and protection of the
22 most important facilities.
23 Q. Will you please tell me which of the military
24 structures in the joint command did this Stan command
25 belong to?
1 A. It belonged to the HVO because the
2 Territorial Defence staff at that time, while the joint
3 command existed, did not have its own military police
4 formed, and if it had had it, then probably those
5 duties would have been carried out jointly.
6 Q. Will you tell me, Mr. Cerovac, after the end
7 of this period of May/June, in the development of the
8 Territorial Defence, did the post of coordinator exist,
9 as a stage in the development of the Territorial
11 A. In the work of the Territorial Defence, and
12 even to this day, since the formation of the army of
13 the state of Bosnia and Herzegovina, there is no such
14 word as a "Stage" or "Phase" nor is there the position
15 of coordinator.
16 Q. So as not to waste too much time over this,
17 was there a coordinator phase in Konjic?
18 A. No.
19 Q. Mr. Cerovac, were certain combat operations
20 prepared and carried out within your headquarters?
21 A. In the second half of June, we were given
22 orders from our superior command to engage in active
23 combat in the direction of Nevesinje, the aim being to
24 ease the pressure on our forces, which were defending
25 the town of Sarajevo.
1 Q. In view of the fact that we have discussed
2 this at some length, will you tell me whether all the
3 structures of the joint command participated in these
4 preparations, I mean the TO and the HVO, in the
6 A. The situation was rather special when it
7 comes to the preparation of those combat operations and
8 at the beginning, the members of the Croatian defence
9 council, the HVO, who belonged to the joint command,
10 expressed their readiness to take an active part in
11 these combat operations, saying that they would support
12 us because we lacked logistic support at the time.
13 When I say we, I'm referring to the Territorial Defence
14 units, that they would reinforce us, but an unforeseen
15 development occurred at the very beginning of these
16 operations. They explained to us that it was not in
17 their national interest to engage in combat in other
18 parts of the municipality and that is the capture of
19 the plateau of Nevesinje.
20 Q. Despite that, did the municipal TO staff
21 decide to carry out this combat operation?
22 A. Yes, of course, because we were not guided by
23 national interests. What we sought to achieve was to
24 liberate the entire territory of Bosnia-Herzegovina.
25 Q. As I would now go on to another area, perhaps
1 this would be a convenient time for the break, Your
3 MS. RESIDOVIC: This is the last in this
4 area, but I intend to move on to another area, so
5 perhaps I'm asking whether this would be a convenient
6 time for the break.
7 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: If that is your last
8 question, we can break at this stage and come back at
9 12 noon.
10 --- Recess taken at 11.29 a.m.
11 --- On resuming at 12.07 p.m.
12 (The witness entered court)
13 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: I hope you are getting
14 to the next stage of your cross-examination.
15 MS. RESIDOVIC: Yes, as I said, I will go on
16 now to another subject. That is, I will no longer be
17 discussing the control and command question that we
18 have covered, prior to the break.
19 Q. Mr. Cerovac, the Court already knows that the
20 Town of Konjic was heavily shelled as of the 4th of
21 May. And it is also aware of the events linked to the
22 combat operations and lifting the blockade on the
23 city. After the deblocking of Bradina, did
24 the shelling of Konjic cease?
25 A. No. The shelling of the Town of Konjic
1 stopped when the date in accords was signed.
2 Q. All of you in the municipal staff and the
3 joint command who performed certain duties, did you do
4 so under conditions of intensive combat operations in
5 the town of Konjic, that is during the period of daily
6 shelling of the town?
7 A. Certainly. The situation in the Town of
8 Konjic was terrible. The town was a very easy target
9 for both selective and non-selective shelling and the
10 grenades would destroy particular buildings and would
11 inflict casualties.
12 Q. I shall now ask the technical service to show
13 a segment of the tape used during the testimony of the
14 expert witness and we can ask the witness whether he
15 recognises the conditions in the Town of Konjic. So
16 will you please show us Tape No. 2, Segment 1?
17 JUDGE JAN: Shelling every day, at least in
18 1992, why do you want to have a picture? That has been
19 a position that has been adopted and admitted, so why
20 further evidence on that?
21 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: I mean if you see the
22 picture of shelling, it will make much of a difference
23 will it?
24 JUDGE JAN: We can well imagine what shelling
25 will do.
1 MS. RESIDOVIC: Your Honours, that is fine
2 with me. If we don't have to show the picture to the
3 witness. But I would you like to admit these tapes
4 into evidence, because on the tapes, you can see what
5 happened and I consider that to be important for your
6 decision. The tape is just support material. The
7 expert witness could not authenticate it. We have the
8 witness here and he can authenticate the tape and it
9 can serve as a basis for establishing the conditions,
10 which are referred to in the indictment. That is the
11 only reason why we wish to show segments of the tape to
12 this witness, so that I should be able to tender it
13 into evidence.
14 Because we have admitted many tapes tendered
15 by the prosecution, so this is a basis for you to have
16 a general idea of the conditions under which all this
17 was happening. That is the only reason I wish to show
18 it to the witness. It will take a minute or two and if
19 he can authenticate it, then I'll be able to tender it
20 into evidence. Because the conditions determine what
21 each individual was able to do or not.
22 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: This, but I think you
23 will try and restrict yourself to the parameters in
24 which you have called a witness to testify. If you
25 looked at the -- in the motion in which you refer to us
1 what he came to is to give a rule of the coordinator
2 and the Tactical Group 1 of the coordinator and the
3 head of the Tactical Group 1 in respect to the, to the
4 activities, this is what he's here to. What I think
5 you are diverting to other areas, which not necessarily
6 affects those things. And I think this is what in
7 enlarging the evidence. There's no point in moving
8 from the area in which actually you called a witness to
9 testify, into areas which perhaps I really want to hear
10 actual testimony.
11 JUDGE JAN: How relevant is this command
12 responsibility? What does that mean? You're in charge
13 it's my responsibility, yes commander. You have
14 examined this witness on that aspect. --
15 MS. RESIDOVIC: Your Honours, I am expecting
16 the hearing you have announced, but I asked you with
17 precision how we could give you a summary of what the
18 witnesses would be testifying to. And I asked you
19 whether this should be done in an identical way, as the
20 prosecution has done, and you confirmed that and gave
21 me guidelines and that is what I followed. As for the
22 coordinator or, possibly commander, in view of your
23 legal expertise, as well as mine, you know that is very
24 important to establish the facts in order to be able to
25 judge anybody's responsibility, so that is just -- I
1 would like to be able to show it very briefly.
2 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: If you are giving
3 anybody the role and responsibility of air commander,
4 you do not necessarily go into what gives rise to that
5 role and responsibility. Here is a chief of staff.
6 He's within the authorities and knows exactly what
7 rules are granted to the coordinator or the commander
8 of the tactical group. He would know. And these are
9 the things that anybody expects you to lead evidence
10 to. Not whether a place was shelled, or not whether a
11 place was captured. It has nothing to do with his
12 role. When the person who played that role comes up,
13 he will then tell us what actually he did. But the
14 technical guidelines which outline his role, what are
15 applicable, who are in charge of those roles, I
16 couldn't tell us.
17 Because all these are completely irrelevant
18 to what perhaps ending. You would as well tell us
19 people who played football on that day or any other
20 activity or any other activity that might have
21 happened. These are all activities which are concerned
22 with normal operations of the war period. We expect
23 there will be shelling and so do it. And in an
24 incessant manner with no appointed commander of a
25 tactical group. He has to defend the area for which he
1 was assigned. This witness will be able to tell us
2 that. And this is not all the type of manoeuvring
3 you're telling us.
4 JUDGE JAN: Even you assume that Konjic was
5 entirely destroyed or it remained unscathed, who would
6 it affect, his command responsibility? Let's confine
7 ourselves to the case instead of moving into other
8 fields and other areas and, which has no bearing at all
9 on the guilt or innocence of your client.
10 MS. RESIDOVIC: First of all, you know that
11 my client, according to us, had no position that any
12 one living in that town was conditioned by the
13 situation in the town. If they spend 24 hours
14 collecting dead bodies or repairing roofs, that is
15 important, regardless of who we are talking about,
16 whether it is this witness or somebody else.
17 JUDGE JAN: Let us confine yourselves to the
18 Defence, instead of other fields that have no bearing
19 at all on the question before us.
20 MS. RESIDOVIC: Yes, Your Honours, but counts
21 46 and 47 speak about inhumane conditions and other
22 things. The witness, Kevric, has told you about that.
23 You have to know whether the conditions were identical.
24 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: If he's not giving
25 evidence of human conditions, go ahead ask him or if
1 you have other witness who can do so, ask them.
2 JUDGE JAN: Inhuman conditions. In the camp,
3 not outside in Konjic.
4 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: He has no responsibility
5 for the areas except in the camp, if at all, especially
6 in the way he was charged. His responsibility is
7 limited to what happened in the camp, not outside.
8 JUDGE JAN: In fact you already led evidence
9 showing there were food shortages and no medical
10 supplies were available.
11 MS. RESIDOVIC: Microphone, Your Honour,
13 JUDGE JAN: The witness doesn't speak about
14 the shortage of food, maybe there's some lines, people
15 collecting food. But we're talking about what happened
16 inside the camp. Even if Konjic, as I said, was
17 completely destroyed or it remained unscathed, how
18 would it affect the command responsibility of your
19 client? That's all I am saying, confine the evidence
20 to your defence.
21 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Assuming he has
22 responsibility all over the place. Even that was the
23 case, was he so charged?
24 MS. RESIDOVIC: There's no evidence at all
25 that my client was responsible. We're trying to
1 explain to you what his activates were and that is why
2 the breadth of the defence is such as it is. I believe
3 that all this is useful for establishing the facts of
4 the case. There's no camp outside of the context, but
5 I would appeal for a status conference as you have
7 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Just the facts of the
8 case. It's none of your business.
9 MS. RESIDOVIC: Your Honour, it's very
10 difficult for me to begin, but if, in the introduction,
11 the prosecution says that the forces attacked a certain
12 village and horrors were happening and you're not aware
13 of them, unless you let me show you, but I will
14 continue with the examination of this witness.
15 JUDGE ODIO-BENITO: It's not for your case.
16 Your point is to defend your client. It's for the
17 Prosecutor to prove the facts of the indictment or not
18 to prove them, not for you. That's what my colleagues
19 are trying to say.
20 MS. RESIDOVIC: Yes, but how can I call in
21 question, the facts presented to the court, and which
22 have been admitted into evidence if I don't give you
23 any counter evidence. How will you be able to view it
24 differently because you have already admitted into
25 evidence, material that are not -- that is not truthful
1 in the position of the Defence. And for the Defence to
2 be able to dispute the evidence tendered by the
3 prosecution, we have to offer other evidence. That
4 evidence has been admitted and I have to cast doubt
5 regarding that evidence. May I ask, rapidly, to be
6 shown the tape with the situation in June and if the
7 court considers it to be irrelevant, the court can
8 reject it. And that is why I am asking the technical
9 booth to show us this.
10 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: I don't think it's
11 necessary to show it. Move on with another aspect of
12 your evidence.
13 MS. RESIDOVIC:
14 Q. Mr. Cerovac, you said that the HVO, a day
15 before the body operation, declined to participate.
16 Tell us please who issued the order for the beginning
17 of the operation Oganj or Borci?
18 A. It was issued and signed by Mr. Esad Ramic.
19 Q. Who was the commander of that operation?
20 A. Mr. Esad Ramic.
21 JUDGE JAN: We also have evidence on that.
22 Esad Ramic (indiscernible). The next man then took
23 over, it was the previous witness before us, on the
24 this Borci operation.
25 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: I remember that.
1 MS. RESIDOVIC: Yes, we remember. This man
2 was for a time the commander of the operation and that
3 is the difference and secondly, I am not accustomed to
4 having a discussion with the Trial Chamber, I have too
5 much respect to be able to enter into any discussion.
6 JUDGE JAN: We merely point out what has
7 already come on the record. I am not discussing it
8 with you.
9 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: That's the evidence we
11 MS. RESIDOVIC: Thank you.
12 Q. Mr. Cerovac, did you take over command of the
13 Borci operation at a certain point?
14 A. I did.
15 Q. Which were the reasons for you to take over
16 command of that operation; the wounding of commander
17 Ramic, in the area of Tisovica (phoen). This is a
18 mountain chain, part of the Prenj Mountains. This
19 occurred in the first half of July or the middle of
20 July, to be more precise.
21 Q. Thank you. Tell me please did Mr. Zejnil
22 Delalic participate in operation Oganj?
23 A. Yes. He had the role of rank and file
24 soldier. And he was in the area of Mount Zvekusa or
25 more precisely, Vranske Stijene.
1 Q. Who worked on the preparatory documents for
2 this operation?
3 A. The operations and training department, to
4 which I belonged.
5 Q. For the needs of this operation, did you form
6 some smaller tactical groups?
7 A. Yes. To facilitate control and command, to
8 facilitate the communications system.
9 Q. Tell me, those tactical groups that are
10 mentioned in your order, do they have anything to do
11 with the Tactical Group based in Pazaric?
12 A. No.
13 Q. Mr. Cerovac, tell me, please, how long did
14 this operation last, Operation Oganj?
15 A. It lasted just over one month until the
16 beginning of August, but certain smaller formations
17 with specific assignments remained in the area.
18 Q. Mr. Cerovac, during that operation, did
19 Zejnil Delalic receive any kind of command military
20 function during that operation?
21 A. No. He could not have been given any such
22 assignments, because he was not within the structure of
23 the control and command system.
24 Q. Which were his duties and responsibilities
25 and can you tell us exactly where he was?
1 A. I said that he had a purely military task,
2 the task of a soldier, a very specific task of
3 providing logistic support from the area of Vranske
4 Stijene or, to be more precise, the village of Dubociri
5 (phoen). Logistic supplies could reach this village by
6 motor car, and his further task was to organise the
7 speedy loading and unloading of the supplies.
8 Q. Thank you. I think that the court is
9 familiar with logistic activities. Go on, please.
10 A. And the transport which went on from there
11 with the help of horses, on horseback, he had to
12 transport these supplies from the Rakatica Canyon
14 Q. I think these details now we don't need to go
15 into. Thank you, Mr. Cerovac. You have told me it is
16 not a command function, but tell me, in the view of the
17 position he had, could he have command over the
19 A. No, he could not command the artillery. He
20 could convey my demands, my own personal demands. This
21 could be done by him or anyone else with the exact
23 Q. Thank you.
24 A. Because I didn't have good links with the
25 artillery positions on Mount Zvekusa.
1 Q. Thank you. Linked to this operation, will
2 you tell me geographically what this area is like,
3 Vranske Stijene, Prajn, in the direction of Lake
4 Borci. In terms of geography, is it mountainous area,
5 inaccessible? Can you just describe it in a couple of
6 sentences for the benefit of the judges?
7 A. To explain it more graphically, we headed out
8 from the town of Konjic, which has an altitude of about
9 267 metres, to the mountainous areas of Prenj where the
10 average altitude is about 1,500 metres, and also
11 towards Glavaticevo, where the highest point was about
12 1,200 metres.
13 Q. Because of these problems and communication
14 problems, before the actual operation, did you
15 establish certain relay stations for communications
16 with the town?
17 A. Yes, indeed, we had to do that.
18 Q. Thank you. We have already heard testimony
19 about this. I just wanted you to confirm this fact
20 before the court.
21 We shall now go on to the next area.
22 Mr. Cerovac, do you know whether Mr. Zejnil Delalic was
23 at a certain point in time appointed to a command post?
24 A. Could you kindly repeat the question because
25 I cannot hear the translation properly.
1 Q. Mr. Cerovac, do you know that Mr. Delalic at
2 one point in time in 1992 became commander?
3 A. Yes. This was towards the end of the month
4 of July, perhaps seven days before this operation had
5 ended, he was appointed commander of TG-1. The duty
6 was performed earlier on by Mr. Mustafa Polutak who had
7 a car accident prior to that.
8 Q. Did you ever personally meet Mr. Polutak?
9 A. Yes. Yes, I met him in Konjic. We met in
10 the motel which is located in the city.
11 Q. Was Mr. Polutak a superior to the municipal
12 staff of Konjic at the time you met him or at any other
13 point in time?
14 A. No. He couldn't be in a superior position to
15 the municipal staff. These tactical groups are
16 divided, actually in military warfare adopted by the
17 western bloc --
18 Q. Well, we have heard the experts on this
19 topic, so I would like to ask you as a witness of these
20 events: Did Mr. Polutak, when you met him or during
21 the time while he was commander, at any point in time,
22 whether he was personally superior to him or to the
23 municipal staff?
24 A. No, he wasn't, so he couldn't be my superior
1 Q. Mr. Cerovac, you said that at the end of
2 July, Mr. Delalic had become the commander of Tactical
3 Group 1. Can you tell me whether Mr. Delalic, as
4 commander of TG-1 at any point in time while he was
5 discharging that duty, was he your superior or to the
6 municipal staff of Konjic?
7 JUDGE JAN: He said no. He has already said
8 that. He has already said no, he was not a superior.
9 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Polutak was not.
10 JUDGE JAN: He said that.
11 MS. RESIDOVIC: He said about Mr. Polutak.
12 I'm talking about Mr. Delalic now.
13 JUDGE JAN: In that regard, I have another
14 question, but you finish first.
15 MS. RESIDOVIC:
16 Q. Please answer the question: When he became
17 commander of TG-1 in July, was Mr. Delalic, at any
18 moment while he was discharging that duty, whether he
19 was your superior or the superior of the municipal
21 A. No, he wasn't our superior, nor was
22 Mr. Polutak either, so he couldn't have been my
23 superior or the superior of the municipal staff.
24 JUDGE JAN: Just a minute, before you proceed
25 further, I have a question to ask of the witness. Can
1 you give this copy to him? This is document 99/7/7,
2 whereby he was appointed commander of all formations.
3 What does this really mean? What does this
4 order convey?
5 A. This order, it has not been worded very
6 accurately when the order "all armed formations"
7 doesn't exist and the commander of all armed formations
8 does not exist in our organisational system. This is
9 not valid, either formally or legally.
10 JUDGE JAN: But it is an order issued by the
11 supreme command. The supreme command must be knowing
12 what it is ordering. Did he become superior to the
13 TO? Did he become superior to the combat units of the
14 MUP? Did he become superior to the combat units of
15 HVO? Did he become superior to the combat units of
16 TO? That's what I want to find out.
17 A. The supreme command, Your Honour, yes, as an
18 institution, but the one who wrote this, who issued
19 this order, the name and surname, initials, you can
20 see, there is a person who writes out the order. The
21 person who prints the order, he doesn't necessarily
22 interpret the order of the supreme command, so he can
23 but he --
24 MS. RESIDOVIC:
25 Q. After that order, were all armed formations
1 subordinated to Mr. Delalic?
2 A. Certainly, no.
3 Q. Can you give me an example? Did Mr. Delalic
4 ask anything from you when he became commander of the
5 tactical group, any material or technical means?
6 A. Well, this was one of the first
7 misunderstandings we had. I'm saying this with
8 reservation. That is a misunderstanding with
9 Mr. Delalic.
10 JUDGE JAN: It has to be obeyed. If there
11 was any confusion, did you ask for clarification from
12 the chief commander, from the supreme commander, what
13 this order really signified?
14 You haven't followed what I said. This is an
15 order of the supreme commander, General Delalic. It
16 had to be obeyed. If you thought there was some
17 confusion because the order had been inaccurately
18 worded, did you ask for any clarification from the
19 supreme commander what he meant by "all formations"?
20 A. I believe that the municipal staff had
21 received more specific appointments by Mr. Delalic from
22 Sarajevo, I think so. I cannot remember the date when
23 he received this, but I think we got clarification, we
24 in the municipal staff, as to these questions of all
25 formations. I think that the problem had been settled,
1 but I can't really remember.
2 MS. RESIDOVIC: Your Honour, I would not like
3 to interfere.
4 JUDGE JAN: Why don't you ask what was meant
5 by "all formations"? You see, as I said, there were
6 three forces, the main forces. I'm leaving out HOS, et
7 cetera. There was the TO; it had certain combat
8 units. You had the HVO; it had certain combat units.
9 You had MUP; it had their own combat units.
10 When the supreme commander says "all
11 formations," what was that really meant to be? Was the
12 TO staff entirely placed under the command of General
13 Delalic or not? He said there was some confusion, the
14 order was not clear. Then the TO must have sought
15 clarification from the supreme commander that we don't
16 understand the import of this order. Please tell us
17 what is really intended to be conveyed.
18 MS. RESIDOVIC: Your Honour, this question
19 was already asked to General Divjak.
20 JUDGE JAN: And General Divjak gave the same
21 reply and said it was inaccurate. But it is an order
22 of the supreme commander, it has to be obeyed, and if
23 it can't be obeyed in its present form, then some
24 clarification must have been sought from someone, at
25 least from the supreme commander, "We don't understand
1 this order. Please tell us what you really mean."
2 MS. RESIDOVIC: Yes. And this witness has
3 just told you, as well as the previous one, when there
4 was this disagreement over the gun, Sultan. I'm just
5 trying to explain that after their request on the 8th
6 of August, the supreme command again issued an order,
7 to which it says, clearly, that he was just the
8 commander of Tactical Group 1. You have that other
9 document in the evidence.
10 I don't know exactly what happened from one
11 day to the next, but what the witness has just said is
12 clear. They noticed the confusion. Then a new order
13 came dated the 8th of August from which it can clearly
14 be seen that Zejnil Delalic was just commander of
15 Tactical Group 1.
16 I have tried to find it, but as this matter
17 arose suddenly, I can't remember exactly who
18 witnessed. I think it was a question addressed to the
19 expert witness Vejzagic. If I've managed to be of
20 assistance, I'm very glad.
21 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Thank you very much for
22 that. Yes, please continue.
23 MS. RESIDOVIC:
24 Q. Mr. Cerovac, tell me, please, in addition to
25 this unit Gajret, which was subordinated to Commander
1 Polutak, did any units from Konjic during the Operation
2 JUG come under the command of other tactical groups
3 within the framework of the operation to lift the
4 blockade of Sarajevo?
5 A. Yes. One such unit was subordinated to
6 Tactical Group 2, the command of which was on Mount
7 Igman. I personally took such a unit there upon orders
8 received from the supreme command, and I led the unit
9 to Mount Igman following orders, to be more precise, to
10 the municipality of Trnovo.
11 Q. Mr. Cerovac, you have already testified
12 before this Trial Chamber that the order for the
13 formation of the Gajret unit, which was subordinated to
14 Tactical Group 1 was issued by your commander Esad
16 Tell me, please, when you received a request
17 from the supreme command to transfer a part of your
18 forces under the command of the Tactical Group, who
19 would issue the order on sending units or parts of
20 units from Konjic to the areas under the control of the
21 Tactical Group?
22 A. The decision was taken by me and Commander
24 Q. In view of the fact that we have heard that
25 your front-lines were about 70 to 100 kilometres long
1 and that, as testified by you and previous witnesses, a
2 part of the forces were sent and subordinated to
3 tactical groups, who was in charge of the remaining
4 units in Konjic?
5 A. The staff, the commander of the municipal
6 staff. There was no interruption in the functioning of
7 the system of control and command in the municipal
8 staff, regardless of the fact that a unit was placed
9 under the command of the Tactical Group. There was
10 continuity all the time.
11 Q. But units which, under order of the
12 commander, were sent to the area of Tactical Group 1 or
13 Tactical Group 2, who were they subordinated to?
14 A. To the commanders of Tactical Group 1 and
15 Tactical Group 2. In this case, to the commander of
16 Tactical Group 1 and, in the second case, to commander
17 of Tactical Group 2, Mr. Nijetovic (phoen).
18 Q. Thank you. Mr. Cerovac, tell me, please, as
19 you have explained that you participated in the
20 take-over of the Celebici barracks, do you know, as a
21 member of the staff and as the chief of staff, what
22 facilities existed within these barracks? What were
23 the main purposes for which it served?
24 A. I knew from the very second half of the 80's
25 what the purpose of these barracks was. It is a
1 typical facility of the former Yugoslav People's Army.
2 The purpose of it was to store military reserves. The
3 focus in this case was on storage of fuel, because
4 there were large containers and some material which
5 were concealed in the tunnel. Obviously, this facility
6 was not being used for its proper function.
7 Q. Thank you. Do you know that after combat
8 operations in Donje Selo and Bradina, a certain number
9 of persons were brought to this facility, persons who
10 had participated in those operations or who had been
11 carrying arms?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Could you tell us how that prison in Celebici
14 came into being? Are you familiar with that?
15 A. The only prison that existed within Konjic
16 municipality was a prison housed in the basement.
17 There were two rooms within the basement of the MUP
18 building. There were some detentions, people held
19 there, after the deblocking, but there wasn't enough
20 room, so a technical decision was taken, a decision out
21 of necessity. When I say "necessity," I mean that the
22 building of the ministry of the interior, the MUP, and
23 the building of the TO staff headquarters, were right
24 next to one another, and that is where I regularly went
25 to work before the war. They were the first two
1 facilities to be directly hit by 115 millimetre
3 JUDGE JAN: Just a minute. You said that the
4 decision was taken. Who took that decision?
5 A. The institution that was responsible for that
6 decision, the ministry, the MUP, it was in its
7 building, in its premises.
8 MS. RESIDOVIC:
9 Q. In the town of Konjic, except for classrooms,
10 was there any other facilities where a large number of
11 people could be placed?
12 A. No, no, there were none. In the town itself,
13 we had this big problem already at the end of April.
14 The first refugees reached our city, non-Serb
15 population expelled from the village of Bijela,
16 Jocinica, Gajic, Gacici (phoen). Most of these cities
17 were torched, Glavaticevo and others. These were local
18 refugees, if I can put it this way, and they were put
19 up with friends in collective centres, and then we had
20 an even bigger problem, a very large wave of non-Serb
21 of refugees expelled by Serb forces from eastern
22 Herzegovina or the area of the municipality of
23 Nevesinje, for we border with that municipality of
24 Nevesinje, and I personally welcomed them. These were
25 refugees from Gacko.
1 Q. Very well, Mr. Cerovac. I think that is
2 sufficient. The Trial Chamber is familiar with these
3 facts. These tens of thousands of people coming, where
4 did you accommodate them?
5 A. Let me tell you regarding a couple of large
6 groups that I'm familiar with. One group was put up in
7 a kindergarten, Zuleha Begeta; another group in the
8 basement of the machine factory in Konjic; a third
9 group of refugees in the Boy Scouts building; a fourth
10 group in the premises close to the town of Konjic in
11 the village of Podorasac; in the premises of the
12 company of Bojica and also in schools. Many refugees
13 were put up in schools.
14 Q. Thank you. I think it is clear from your
15 testimony that the town of Konjic had no facilities for
16 the accommodation of large groups of people.
17 My next question is, Mr. Cerovac, do you
18 personally know who brought people to the Celebici
19 barracks after they were detained, taken into custody?
20 A. As in my previous testimony, I said that
21 police forces participated in these operations in Donje
22 Selo, in particular, and also in the region of
23 Bradina. In deblocking the road, police forces from
24 the municipality of Hadzici participated, the MUP of
25 Hadzici. The people were taken into custody by police
1 forces and by TO units in the month of May when these
2 operations took place. There was no established
3 military police whose task this would have been.
4 Q. Thank you. Mr. Cerovac, do you have any
5 knowledge as to which forces secured the Celebici
6 barracks where the prison was?
7 A. Yes. There was a MUP unit. It was called
8 the "Special MUP Unit," and there were members of the
9 HVO and their military police, and later on, the TO as
10 well late in 1992.
11 Q. As a member of the joint command, did you
12 have any knowledge about the formation of a commission
13 which was to interrogate these persons and establish
14 their responsibility?
15 A. Yes. I was just informed about it because my
16 work was specific and I spent a lot of time in the
18 Q. Do you know who was the president of that
20 A. Yes. The president of the military
21 investigating commission was Mr. Goran Lokas, who was a
22 jurist by training.
23 Q. Do you know who were the members of that
25 A. Mostly.
1 Q. You don't have to know all the names.
2 A. I shall do my best to tell you all the
3 names. I will probably remember. In terms of
4 structure, I know that the majority of members of the
5 commission represented the MUP. MUP representatives
6 were the most numerous because they are familiar with
7 the interrogations procedure, so that they were the
8 most numerous in that commission.
9 Q. Tell me, did the TO staff appoint one or
10 several members of that commission? Are you familiar
11 with that?
12 A. I think they appointed Mr. Sacir Pajic at the
13 beginning of July, I think, in the first half of July,
14 we withdrew him for the purpose of forming and
15 organising military police detachment.
16 Q. Who appointed him to that commission?
17 A. Generally speaking, it was the joint
18 command. Generally speaking, all of them, including
19 Goran Lokas and Mr. Pajic were appointed by the joint
21 Q. What about the members coming from MUP? Who
22 appointed them?
23 A. Only their superior, that is, the chief of
24 the police station, chief of the MUP station.
25 Q. In view of your personal knowledge, could you
1 say whether Zejnil Delalic was authorised and whether,
2 as far as you know, did he ever appoint any single
3 member of this commission?
4 A. No. What I do know, that is, the time
5 Mr. Delalic -- while Mr. Delalic was working and living
6 there during 1992, no.
7 MS. RESIDOVIC: Your Honour, would this be a
8 convenient time for the break so that I can continue
9 after the lunch break with this witness? Thank you.
10 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: We will assemble at
12 --- Luncheon recess taken at 1.00 p.m.
1 --- On resuming at 2.37 p.m.
2 (The witness entered court)
3 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Kindly inform the
4 witness he is still under oath.
5 THE REGISTRAR: I remind you, sir, that you
6 are still under oath.
7 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Carry on.
8 MS. RESIDOVIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
9 Q. Mr. Cerovac, have you had time to rest a
10 little? I appreciate the fact that during the war you
11 were wounded and that you are ill and I shall try
12 during the afternoon to be as specific as possible, so
13 that we could make the examination easier. Before the
14 break, we talked about a document which was submitted
15 to you for review, 27th of July, 1992, was the date.
16 To clarify certain facts, I would like to ask you, Mr.
17 Cerovac, according to the regulations and the armed
18 forces, who composed the armed forces of Bosnia and
19 Herzegovina? According to this regulation the
20 formation of Bosnia and Herzegovina were the TO, the
21 HVO and the MUP and the forces of the interior.
22 Regardless of the orders you have seen, on the basis of
23 your own experience in the municipal staff of Konjic,
24 did Mr. Delalic as commander of TG-1 have ever become a
25 superior authority over the TO and the HVO and the MUP
1 in Konjic?
2 A. No, never, neither in theory, nor in
4 Q. You said that you followed a group of members
5 of the TO during the JUG operation. Mr. Cerovac, is it
6 true that part of the forces, and from Konjic, was
7 subordinated to Tactical Group 2?
8 A. Yes, yes. I led such a group, personally.
9 It was about 150 soldiers so that parts of the forces
10 of Konjic were subordinated for certain Tactical Group
12 Q. I have some evidence and I would like to show
13 the witness document T 146/1. I would like this
14 document to be placed on the ELMO, so that the judges
15 can see it. Can the document be seen? Have you seen
16 the document earlier on, Mr. Cerovac? Have another
17 look. Put -- please put the English version on the
18 ELMO. The English version, thank you. And you look
19 through the Bosnian version, please. Mr. Cerovac, is
20 this document signed by the President Izetbegovic?
21 A. No.
22 Q. On this document, has it been clearly
23 indicated that Mr. Delalic was commander of TG-1 in the
24 upper part of this order, in the preamble, you can see
25 the official gazette on the basis of which orders are
1 issued. Is it indisputable that Mr. Delalic was
2 commander of TG-1? Can you see this from the order?
3 A. There's nothing questionable here, it was
4 clearly indicated that Mr. Delalic was commander of
6 Q. Has it ever been disputable? Has been this
7 appointment been ever a question of dispute for you?
8 And after his appointment, did you know that Mr.
9 Delalic was only commander of TG-1 and that he had no
10 other responsibilities or authority? Was that clear to
12 A. Yes, thank you.
13 MR. MORAN: Your Honour, there may be an issue
14 of interpretation. On page 59, line 14, the answer to
15 the question on the LiveNote is "No." I believe the
16 witness said "Yes." Could that be verified, please?
17 MS. RESIDOVIC:
18 Q. You confirmed that President Izetbegovic
19 signed it, so the mistake was in the transcript, it
20 relates to the appointment. It was nothing, it was
21 only a mistake in the transcript. The appointment was,
22 in fact, signed by President Izetbegovic?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. There was a mistake in the transcript. Mr.
25 Cerovac, were you personally ever been a member of the
1 Tactical Group 1 command? Were you, Mr. Cerovac, at
2 any point in time in 1992, were you a soldier of TG-1
3 that is subordinate to Mr. Delalic?
4 A. No, never.
5 Q. Mr. Cerovac, were the guards of the prison,
6 were they soldiers or subordinates to the commander of
8 A. No.
9 Q. Now, we are discussing the issue of the
10 tactical group. Mr. Cerovac, do you know whether the
11 guards or the personnel of the Celebici camp
12 subordinated to the coordinator?
13 A. No.
14 Q. Thank you. Before the break, you said that
15 Goran Lokas was president of the military investigation
16 committee. Tell me, do you know that at the beginning
17 of June, Mr. Lokas had a traffic accident?
18 A. He went to the Republic of Croatia and since
19 he was absent for some time, we were informed, Mr.
20 Dinko Zebic told me, personally, that he had had a car
21 accident. I don't know about the details, I was not
22 told about the details.
23 Q. Given the fact that the position of the
24 deputy for security in the joint command belonged to
25 the HVO, do you know if someone had been appointed to
1 the post, earlier occupied by Mr. Lokas.
2 A. I saw Mr. Jerko Kostic in the premises of the
3 joint command. Actually in the offices where Mr. Lokas
4 used to work, it was a person whom I had known before
5 the aggression and who worked in the security service
6 of the former Yugoslavia.
7 Q. When we talked about the commission, although
8 you had mentioned that it was not part of your job, but
9 as a member of the joint command, did you know what the
10 task of the commission was?
11 A. I would like to say the following in response
12 to your question. In my training, I have never been in
13 a position to work on matters of military investigation
14 and I am familiar with those techniques and you can
15 draw the conclusion that I am not familiar with the
16 techniques of interrogation, examination and so forth.
17 In the joint command, that is what I know, we wrote out
18 some orders which referred to the work, which related
19 to the work of the commission, which dealt with
20 correctness of the procedure itself, not to use
21 coercive measures and so on. And we had drawn up such
23 Q. Now you said that you had done this with
24 regard to the work of the commission, in the joint
25 command in the TO staff. Did one pay heed to legal
1 procedures and to the respect of human rights of
2 civilians in particular?
3 A. Yes, we paid heed to that, especially some
4 orders, which we had issued related to the protection
5 of the civilian population, especially population of
6 the Serb nationality, who lived on the territory of the
7 Konjic municipality. In fact, with regard to their
8 personal protection with regard to not appropriating
9 their property, their cattle and not mistreating them
10 and so on. And even in these orders, we had organised
11 certain points. Actually, we had written out certain
12 points, relating to tasks of protection of the Serb
13 population, and we appointed responsible persons to
14 take care of that. I think that I have mentioned this.
15 Q. I would like to show you three documents and
16 I would like to ask you whether you are familiar with
17 these documents and if you had perhaps drawn them up
18 yourself, can you tell the judges that? Please show
19 the witness document 245 A5, D-20. Exhibit 145.
20 JUDGE JAN: How are these documents relevant
21 to command responsibility? The staff, the TO is not
22 before us. I have seen some documents issued, even the
23 declaration of war, issued by the Government of
24 Bosnia-Herzegovina, contains a specific paragraph in
25 that regard, how does that effect us in solving the
1 question of command responsibility, so far as your
2 client is concerned? You're just wasting our time.
3 MS. RESIDOVIC: As far as I can understand,
4 Article 7, whoever is -- I am talking about command
5 responsibility -- whoever was in command, did or did
6 not take the necessary measures to punish the
7 perpetrators. These are documents which relate to the
8 fact that, whether the command had tried to prevent
9 something or not and that is how I understand Article
11 JUDGE JAN: The article has nothing to do
12 with Celebici camp. He was not in charge, he had no
13 relations with that camp. That is the question.
14 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Who is the command in
15 these particular circumstance?
16 JUDGE JAN: These instructions have not been
17 issued by him, they've been issued by the State and the
18 functions of the State. Let's confine ourselves to the
19 responsibility of your client. You've already led
20 evidence to show that he's not a member of the TO, he's
21 not a member of the war presidency and he's not a
22 member of the MUP. And as a TG-1 commander, he had no
23 responsibility of this Celebici prison. Even when he
24 was made commander of all the formations, that did not
25 include Celebici camp for the reason that he had a
1 specific task of leaving the -- but that's enough. Why
2 are you going into these areas, they're not relevant
3 for your purpose?
4 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: If you had listened to
5 the witness, he was talking about something quite
7 MS. RESIDOVIC: Your Honour, this would be
9 JUDGE JAN: He's been held responsible for
10 the acts of others. But he says your defence is that
11 he had nothing to do with those persons, as a
12 commander. That's your case.
13 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: That's the evidence.
14 JUDGE JAN: So why are we going into all
15 these matters? Yours is a very specific and limited
17 MS. RESIDOVIC: That is clear, then you
18 should ask the Prosecutor. As long as such an
19 indictment exists, we must cast this doubt on every
20 element of the indictment and not only what we are
21 saying, what is clear to me and to you, seems not to be
22 clear to everyone in the courtroom.
23 JUDGE JAN: There are so many accused,
24 charged with different offences. Yours is a limited
25 one, command responsibility. You're being held
1 vicariously responsible for the acts of the others and
2 you say that I had nothing to do with those persons who
3 committed those acts and this is your case. So that
4 should be the end of the matter.
5 MS. RESIDOVIC: But only on the basis of the
6 indictment, he said that he was responsible for
7 everything according to the prosecution. So you should
8 not adopt this attitude. I would like to point to some
9 facts that are quite contrary to these.
10 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: The evidence now which
11 you are relying upon, is evidence of another tactical
12 Group 2, but not of Group 1. So it doesn't have any
13 relevance to what he could have done, even if he did
15 MS. RESIDOVIC: All the forces from Konjic
16 was under somebody else's responsibility rather than
17 Delalic's, isn't that something significant?
18 JUDGE JAN: He's -- in the JUP. Your case
19 is, as I understand, that he had nothing as commander
20 of TG-1 or assistant chief of staff in the JUP, he had
21 nothing to do with the salvaging camp, so that should
22 be the end of it.
23 MS. RESIDOVIC: That is what we claim and
24 what we are proving, but for us to be able to prove
25 that fully --
1 JUDGE JAN: Bosnia Government of regard to
2 observation, be relevant in this regard.
3 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: We spend so much time on
4 a very simple matter. It's this witness that you have
5 been examining and he has told you what he did. And I
6 don't see how you link it with your defence. He's told
7 you what he did and what happened in the group, in
8 which he worked. Well, if you want to share that,
9 share it. But I don't see the relevance of it.
10 JUDGE JAN: It's provided in the -- the armed
11 forces would be what the Geneva convention is about and
12 this is exactly what the Bosnia government has done and
13 what the functions of the Bosnia government has done.
14 And right in the convention themselves, that the armed
15 forces would be taught, given lessons in regard to the
16 provisions at the Geneva convention.
17 MS. RESIDOVIC: Your Honours, life was far
18 more complicated than this case itself. And I am
19 trying to illustrate a part of that life for you. If
20 you feel that is not necessary, the document that were
21 part of the supporting material of the expert witness
22 indicate the order to strictly respect the Geneva
23 conventions. And whoever participated, discharged his
24 duties in the way assigned to him. It is hard to
25 explain that a country one day old swept by war. It is
1 very difficult to explain what happened and I don't
2 know how you will understand this camp if you don't
3 know the rest. But anyway, that is not up to me.
4 Thank you.
5 Q. Mr. Cerovac, could you tell me whether you
6 know anything about who had the authority to release
7 prisoners from the Celebici prison?
8 A. The knowledge I had at the time was as
9 follows: A part of the prisoners were released by the
10 military investigations commission. Then, the
11 prisoners were released when somebody intervened on
12 their behalf, people with prestige from Konjic. Also,
13 through certain family connections, there were family
14 links. There was intermarriage between Croats, Muslims
15 and Serbs, so there were family links too.
16 Q. Mr. Cerovac, while you were standing in for
17 Commander Ramic, were you ever consulted regarding the
18 release of any of the prisoners from Celebici prison?
19 A. Yes, this occurred in the second half of July
20 and on two occasions.
21 Q. Will you please tell us what happened, if you
22 can remember, in the first case, what was it about?
23 A. I shall very briefly, not to take up the time
24 of their Honours and all of you here present. The
25 first time it occurred was upon the intervention of Mr.
1 Tahirovic. Actually, it was a friend of his, whom I
2 knew personally, because we were of the same generation
3 and his name was Miro Golubovic. And the communication
4 was between Konjic and Glavaticevo, which is about 15
5 or 16 kilometres, as the crow flies. And the situation
6 in Konjic at the time was highly tense. There was
7 anti-Serb feeling was rampant because, in July, a
8 mysterious killing occurred, of a TO policeman in the
9 Village of Bradina. Or more precisely, Duboki Potok.
10 So that animosity soared. That is how I understood Mr.
11 Tahirovic. So there was no communication between us
12 for a long time. Not to keep the lines engaged and not
13 to allow the enemy to listen in.
14 Q. Mr. Cerovac, after being informed by Mr.
15 Tahirovic about this anti-Serb feeling, and after his
16 intervention on behalf of his friend, Golubovic, did
17 you undertake anything?
18 A. Yes. I told Tahirovic that he should find
19 the necessary forms and to try, by messenger, to send
20 them to the Glavaticevo region where I was situated at
21 the time.
22 Q. Did those forms reach you at Glavaticevo?
23 A. Not those forms, because in the surroundings
24 of Glavaticevo and in Glavaticevo itself, the situation
25 was extremely difficult in the combat sense. There
1 were casualties whom we had to take care of, so that I
2 was told that the messenger had reached Vranske
3 Stijene, whereas I, due to the situation in which I was
4 and the events in the surroundings --
5 JUDGE JAN: You didn't ask him to go into
6 those details. You only asked him what did he do in
7 regards to Tahirovic.
8 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: The release of
9 documents, I think that's a simple question.
10 MS. RESIDOVIC:
11 Q. Mr. Cerovac, did you authorise anyone -- you
12 have explained why you, yourself, didn't receive those
13 documents. Did you give anyone to sign on your behalf
14 this document for Miro Golubovic? The court wants you
15 to be brief.
16 A. Yes. Delalic told me that this messenger had
17 arrived with these forms in connection with Miro
18 Golubovic, so I told him to sign it because the
19 messenger could not go on foot for six or seven hours.
20 The messenger was not in a position to be able to do
21 that. I had other more pressing business. There were
22 dead people. There were wounded people, so I told him
23 to sign.
24 Q. Mr. Cerovac, while performing your duties as
25 staff commander, did you, on any other occasion,
1 authorise Mr. Delalic to sign a document?
2 A. This also happened while I was at
3 Glavaticevo. This was maybe four, five, six days after
4 this contact with Mr. Tahirovic and the case with
5 Mr. Golubovic. Dr. Izetbegovic contacted me in
6 connection with the case of two doctors,
8 Q. Did you, in connection with that
9 conversation, know that Mr. Delalic was there present
10 with Dr. Ahmar Izetbegovic?
11 A. Yes. Dr. Izetbegovic said that. He said
12 that he was speaking over his Motorola.
13 Q. Did you then, while acting as commander of
14 the municipal staff, authorise somebody to be able to
15 sign the discharge papers after these requests?
16 A. Yes. As in the first case, I decided quickly
17 and said that Mr. Zejnil Delalic should do that, and I
18 concentrated on my own business.
19 Q. Mr. Cerovac, do you know whether other
20 persons, for instance, the head of the MUP station or
21 the HVO commander, did they too, on certain occasions,
22 make such individual decisions rather like the ones you
24 A. Yes. I learned about that, but not before
25 the second half of July. In Glavaticevo, there was a
1 MUP unit, a formation, company size, and my friend,
2 Mr. Nusret Sacibovic was in it. He was a member of the
3 military investigations commission. He was a lawyer.
4 Unfortunately, he, too, is no longer among the living.
5 He told me some details about these interventions made
6 on the basis of family ties and certain persons of
7 authority, so that some Serbs detained in Celebici were
9 Q. Mr. Cerovac, you said that your intervention
10 in connection with Miro Golubovic was linked to the
11 heightened anti-Serb feelings in town. Within the
12 framework of your duties, did you ever learn that in
13 the prison itself there were some mistreatment of the
15 A. No.
16 Q. Did you, Mr. Cerovac, ever receive any
17 reports, personally or your headquarters as such, that
18 any illegal action was being taken against prisoners?
19 A. No.
20 Q. Mr. Cerovac, as a member of the staff and of
21 the joint command, did you ever learn of the conditions
22 regarding the food for prisoners in Celebici differed
23 from the food received by your own soldiers?
24 A. Not as far as I know. The situation with
25 food for all defence elements, both the Territorial
1 Defence and the troops of the HVO and the refugees who
2 were in collective centres, the food was prepared in a
3 central kitchen. The preparation of food was done
4 centrally, was centralised.
5 Q. Mr. Cerovac, with the exception of this
6 general information, because these were not your
7 responsibilities and the authority you granted on the
8 basis of some intervention by individuals, did you
9 later learn about what happened to the Celebici prison?
10 A. I know that the supreme command had issued a
11 request for speeding up the work of the military
12 investigations commission with the prisoners, and we,
13 the TO staff, sent a questionnaire. We, in Konjic, did
14 not have a developed judicial network. That was not
15 our competence. I think there was some contacts. Was
16 it in connection with the prisoners, these prisoners of
17 war, to go to Mostar, but in view of the circumstances
18 in Mostar and the development of operations, they could
19 not be taken there safely. So it was decided, as far
20 as I recall, that they should go to Zenica.
21 Q. Do you know whether the prison was, in fact,
22 moved to Zenica?
23 A. Communications, that is, the roads leading to
24 Zenica by October and November, they were intercepted
25 because of the conflict between the BiH army and the
1 HVO, so this made difficult moving the prison. I wish
2 to add that already at the beginning of November and in
3 the course of November, I took over the duties of
4 brigade commander.
5 Q. Mr. Cerovac, you just said that you became
6 brigade commander. Tell me, please, were the brigades
7 the next stage in the development of Territorial
8 Defence in Konjic?
9 A. The development of the army, with all due
10 respect, Madam Residovic, was conditioned by the
11 further transformation of the army.
12 Q. Now, please be brief. You have shown us the
13 chart with the formations. Tell us, please, how did
14 the further development of the army in Konjic develop?
15 After the detachments, what was the next stage?
16 JUDGE JAN: We already have the evidence of
17 General Arif on this point. The municipal staff became
18 part of this course. You said about the winding up of
19 this Celebici detention camp.
20 MS. RESIDOVIC: Your Honours, the late Arif
21 Pasalic testified before this court that he knew what
22 happened in November. I'm now asking this witness
23 after the detachments came the brigades and the witness
24 became a brigade commander. I'm asking him to tell us
25 what General Pasalic could not confirm in court. If
1 this witness can do it, I'm asking him to do it.
2 Q. We have the chart with the detachments, and
3 then please tell me, were brigades formed in Konjic and
5 A. Yes. Within the territory of Konjic
6 municipality, two brigades were formed, the 45th
7 brigade and the 7th brigade.
8 Q. What post did you hold in that brigade?
9 A. I was brigade commander.
10 JUDGE JAN: When were these brigades formed?
11 Where were the brigades formed?
12 MS. RESIDOVIC: We don't have a translation.
13 JUDGE JAN: When were the brigades formed?
14 A. The brigades were formed after the
15 establishment of the fourth corps, which was
16 established by decision of the presidency, so the
17 decision on the formation of the corps as the command.
18 Immediately after that came the agreements and the
19 arrangements regarding the formation of brigades. This
20 was the period of the transformation of the army
21 throughout the territory of Bosnia-Herzegovina. The
22 corps were formed for the first time and the other
24 Q. Did Zejnil Delalic, at any point in time,
25 have a command military position in any of the newly
1 formed brigades?
2 A. No, never.
3 Q. Tell me, please, do you know when the prison
4 in Celebici ceased to exist?
5 A. This occurred, I don't know exactly when, but
6 I know that the prisoners were transferred to the
7 sports hall in the area of town known as Musala.
8 Q. From that time on, when the prisoners were
9 brought to Celebici, that is, from May until that
10 moment at the end of 1992 when they were transferred
11 from Celebici to Musala, those who remained, can you
12 tell me whether the municipal staff or the joint
13 command ever gave any authorisation to Zejnil Delalic
14 with respect to the barracks or to the Celebici prison?
15 A. No, never.
16 Q. Tell me, please, in that period, did the
17 municipal staff or the joint command ever authorise
18 Zejnil Delalic to appoint certain persons within the
19 Celebici prison?
20 A. No.
21 Q. In connection with your testimony, I would
22 ask you only additionally when the last units of the
23 Yugoslav People's Army left the town of Konjic, if you
25 A. In the first half of the month of May.
1 Q. Tell me, Mr. Cerovac, in view of the fact
2 that you explained to us the development of Territorial
3 Defence in Konjic, were there ever any private armies
4 in Konjic, outside these military structures that you
5 have explained to us?
6 A. If I'm not mistaken, I think you said
7 "private armies."
8 JUDGE JAN: You must be talking about
9 volunteers, not private armies. There was HOS. They
10 were volunteers. They were not private armies.
11 MS. RESIDOVIC: Yesterday, sir, we heard
12 testimony that HOS came in mid-August and that it was
13 subordinated to the staff. I'm asking the witness
14 because one witness said that there were private
15 armies, and you heard the witness laugh at that, but
16 that is why I'm asking whether there were any private
17 armies or was there the Territorial Defence, the HVO
18 and the MUP?
19 Q. Did you ever hear of the existence of private
20 armies in Konjic?
21 A. No, never.
22 Q. In '92, do you know whether there were any
23 Green Beret detachments in Konjic?
24 A. In '92, did detachments --
25 Q. Did detachments of Green Berets exist or were
1 they all under the command of the TO?
2 A. All units were under the command of the
3 Territorial Defence. All the formations that we formed
4 in the form of detachments. That was clear. I can't
5 see --
6 Q. Tell me, did later any kind of association
7 come into existence under that name?
8 A. Yes, as an association of citizens, the
9 organisations under the Green Beret of Bosnia.
10 Q. Can you remember when this happened?
11 A. I think this was in '94. In '94.
12 Q. Mr. Cerovac, thank you very much. I
13 appreciate your willingness to come and testify before
14 this court, especially in view of your impaired
16 MS. RESIDOVIC: Your Honours, I have
17 completed the examination-in-chief of this witness.
18 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Any cross-examination by
19 defence lawyers?
20 MR. OLUJIC: The defence of Zdravko Mucic has
21 no additional cross-examination for this witness.
22 MR. MORAN: Your Honour, I have this many
23 questions of cross-examination.
24 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: The answers will
25 probably be 50 pages.
1 MR. MORAN: I hope not, Judge. Let me plug
2 myself in and see if we can...
3 Cross-examined by Mr. Moran
4 Q. Good afternoon, sir. Let me reintroduce
5 myself. My name is Tom Moran, and just so we're
6 up front with everybody, you and I talked over the noon
7 hour a little bit. Are we coming through in Bosnian?
8 A. Yes. I can hear you.
9 Q. Okay, good. I'm going to direct your
10 attention to a couple of things, one of which we talked
11 about over the noon hour and to a couple of things you
12 testified to on direct.
13 Sir, you look tired and if, at any time, you
14 don't understand me or if you're feeling ill or
15 something like that, let me know. We'll stop. We'll
16 work with you. If you don't understand one of my
17 questions, stop me and I'll rephrase it.
18 I'd like to direct your attention to some
19 testimony you gave this morning on direct. You were
20 talking about orders from the joint command at the time
21 you were the operations officer. As I recall your
22 testimony, it was that they had to be signed by both
23 the commander of the TO and the commander of the HVO,
24 who was the chief of staff; is that correct?
25 A. Yes, that is correct.
1 Q. You also said that if the commander was not
2 there, he could specifically authorise you or some
3 other member of the staff to sign his name to a
4 specific order. You're nodding your head "yes," and
5 this lady over here in the yellow outfit is what's
6 called a court reporter. She has to write down
7 everything that we say so that six months from now I
8 can remember what you said.
9 You also, as I recall, testified that the
10 commander could authorise you orally to sign certain
11 orders on his behalf. He could say at the morning
12 briefing, I'm going off someplace. You can sign this
13 order." Do you remember testifying to that, sir?
14 A. Sir, I understood from our conversation
15 during the lunch break that you used to be a
16 professional soldier. And in all armies in the world,
17 orders can be made, orders may be made orally or in
18 writing. There are specific circumstances when orders,
19 instructions or various authorisations are made orally.
20 Q. What I was getting at, though, sir --
21 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Counsel was not
22 disagreeing with you. He was merely reminding you of
23 what you said. I think that was sufficient. You could
24 have just said yes, that is what I said.
25 JUDGE JAN: In fact, he already said that the
1 commander cannot have the next man to sign on his
3 MR. MORAN:
4 Q. Coming right to the heart of the matter that
5 I wanted to get at, is the reason you had to have
6 commander Ramic's authority or issue an order on his
7 behalf, while you were the operations officer, because
8 only the commander has the right to give commands and
9 give orders, and the only time that you as a
10 non-commander can give orders is when you are
11 specifically authorised by the commander to give them?
12 A. Exclusively, by authority of the commander.
13 Q. That was exactly the question I was asking,
14 sir. Well, you've also been a commander and in the
15 army that I was in, commanders were very special
16 people. They could, for instance, punish their
17 subordinates, punish soldiers, where someone who was
18 not a commander was not. Was that the same way in the
19 Bosnian army, only the commander could punish?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Sir, one more thing and then I think I'm
22 through, judge. It wasn't 50 pages.
23 JUDGE JAN: Thanks.
24 MR. MORAN:
25 Q. You're not a lawyer, are you, sir?
1 A. No.
2 Q. There's too many of us. If someone were to
3 ask you about some technical definitions in the Geneva
4 convention. Let me give me a hard core example. If
5 Ms. McHenry who is sitting over there, one of the
6 prosecutors, were to ask you a technical question about
7 a definition in the Geneva conventions, you wouldn't
8 know the answer to that, would you?
9 A. In the course of my training at studies in
10 Sarajevo, I had an examination which was called
11 international war law, and if you ask me a definition
12 of a war crime, I can give it to you immediately.
13 Q. But, if she, for instance, were to ask you
14 who was a protected person under the Geneva convention
15 on civilians, you couldn't answer that question, could
17 A. I think I could.
18 Q. Then if she asks it, you're more than welcome
19 to answer it, if you think you can.
20 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Don't tempt him more.
21 MR. MORAN: I've gone as far as I wanted to
22 go down this path. I afraid I may regret having done
24 JUDGE JAN: As I stated earlier, it is
25 beyond --
1 MR. MORAN: Your Honours, I used to do that
2 and none of my students could answer, technically,
3 those questions. If the Yugoslav army can, if he can
4 answer it, then he can answer it.
5 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Any other
7 MS. BOLER: We have no questions, Your
9 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Have you any
11 Cross-examined by Ms. McHenry.
12 MS. McHENRY: Good afternoon, Your Honours.
13 Yes, I do have some questions.
14 Q. Sir, good afternoon. My name is Teresa
15 McHenry and I'm going to be asking you some questions.
16 If you don't understand a question, please tell me and
17 I will repeat it or rephrase it.
18 Sir, I'm going to have to ask that you speak
19 into the microphone so that your answers can be
20 recorded. Did you understand, that if you don't
21 understand a question, you just have to let me know?
22 JUDGE JAN: Nodding will not suffice. You
23 have to say yes or no because it has to be recorded.
24 Nodding will not suffice, would not be sufficient. You
25 have to say yes or no.
1 MS. McHENRY:
2 Q. Sir, you would agree that in April and May of
3 1992, Mr. Delalic was already functioning as a member
4 of the TO, wouldn't you?
5 A. No. Your statement is incorrect.
6 Q. When did Mr. Delalic start functioning as a
7 member of the TO?
8 A. Military duty as member of the TO was during
9 the 27th of June, 1992.
10 Q. Well, sir, you would agree with me, wouldn't
11 you, that when Mr. Delalic took charge in liberating
12 the Celebici barracks, he did so in his military
13 capacity as a member of the TO?
14 A. Not in the military sense, in the logistic
16 Q. Well, sir, you previously gave a statement to
17 a representative from the Defence, didn't you, on the
18 22nd of June, 1996?
19 A. Yes, only once did I give a statement to The
20 Hague Tribunal, and after that, I didn't.
21 JUDGE JAN: You were examined by the Defence
22 attorney before you came here? You were examined by
23 one of the Defence counsel.
24 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, Your Honour.
25 The interpreters cannot hear you.
1 JUDGE JAN: She's referring to that statement
2 which you made to one of the Defence counsel.
3 A. Yes.
4 MS. McHENRY:
5 Q. Sir, you would agree with me that in your
6 prior statement, you stated that: "I know that after a
7 meeting, Zejnil Delalic joined the patriotic movement
8 and as a member of the Territorial Defence, without any
9 function, took part with us in liberating the former
10 JNA compound in the Celebici barracks." You would
11 agree you made that statement, wouldn't you, sir?
12 A. He was there as an ordinary volunteer, but
13 formally he was not. He did not belong to the
14 Territorial Defence.
15 Q. Sir, my question is would you agree with me
16 that previously you stated that when Mr. Delalic
17 participated in the liberation of the Celebici
18 barracks, he did so as a member of the Territorial
20 A. Not as a member of the Territorial Defence.
21 I was at the head of the group of people who are
22 members of the TO, and I explained my tasks very
23 clearly. We were all in uniforms and armed and
24 Mr. Delalic performed voluntary functions on a logistic
25 basis. He provided for the accommodations and did some
1 physical work, the loading and unloading.
2 Q. Was Mr. Delalic in uniform and armed?
3 A. No.
4 Q. When was the first time you saw Dr. Delalic
5 in uniform?
6 A. In uniform, well, I saw him when we were
7 sending off the unit, which we sent to the area of
8 Pazaric and tactical area 1. It was a solemn occasion.
9 Q. And Mr. Delalic was wearing a uniform on that
11 JUDGE JAN: This is what he says.
12 MS. McHENRY: Okay.
13 Q. Was this the first time you had ever seen
14 Mr. Delalic in a uniform?
15 JUDGE JAN: This is what he says.
16 MS. McHENRY: I just want to clarify, Your
17 Honour, that this was the first time.
18 Q. Sir, was that the first time you had ever
19 seen Mr. Delalic in a military uniform?
20 A. Yes. It was the first time, the first time
21 someone wears a uniform does not necessarily mean that
22 he's a member of the TO. To wear any part of the
23 uniform, if a young person was wearing it or someone
24 who was not able to be in the military, well, this was
25 a specific atmosphere prevailing then. I don't know if
1 you will be able to grasp this.
2 Q. Well, after this time -- let me ask you:
3 Before you saw Mr. Delalic at the solemn occasion of
4 the Gajret unit, how many times in the month previous
5 to that, from May 15 to June 15th, how many times had
6 you seen Mr. Delalic, approximately?
7 A. Could you please repeat the question? Do you
8 mean from May 15th to June 15th?
9 Q. Yes, sir. From May 15th to June 15th, on
10 approximately how many occasions did you see
11 Mr. Delalic?
12 A. I cannot say even approximately. I cannot
13 pronounce myself on this subject. I cannot really say
14 how many times I would have seen him.
15 Q. Was it more or less than ten times?
16 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Do you think it's fair
17 if he says he cannot remember, that's all he says.
18 MS. McHENRY:
19 Q. Could it have been the first time you saw
20 Dr. Delalic was on June 15th during the Gajret unit?
21 JUDGE JAN: But he met him when they took
22 over the possession of the Celebici camp.
23 MS. McHENRY:
24 Q. Between the time that you took over the
25 Celebici barracks with Mr. Delalic, in the time you saw
1 him on the solemn occasion, did you see Mr. Delalic in
2 between those times or you have just no idea if you
3 ever saw him?
4 A. Well, I would like to correct something. The
5 first time, it was not the 15th of June but the 20th of
6 June. The 20th of June.
7 Q. Sir, between the time that you took over the
8 Celebici barracks with Mr. Delalic and the 20th of
9 June, during the solemn occasion of the Gajret, do you
10 know whether or not you saw Mr. Delalic at all during
11 that time period?
12 A. I cannot really say the number of times I saw
13 him. I would like to speak the truth. If I had known
14 that I had seen him five times, I would say so. If I
15 had known if I saw him ten times, I would have so.
16 Q. I understand that you don't remember the
17 exact number of times. I am asking you whether or not
18 there were any times between the time you took over the
19 Celebici barracks and the 20th of June that you saw Mr.
20 Delalic. Did you see him even on one time or you just
21 don't remember?
22 A. In one of my answers, as far as I can
23 recollect, I said that I had contacts with Mr. Delalic
24 before he travelled to the Republic of Croatia, in his
25 apartment. And if you want to know how he was dressed,
1 I can tell you that. I outline this briefly, if I
2 asked him if he were able to provide some supplies to
3 us. Actually he was dressed very simply, he was
4 wearing a robe.
5 Q. May I ask for the usher's assistance?
6 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit 239.
7 Q. Sir, do you recognise this as the copy of the
8 statement you gave to the Defence in June of 1996?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. And is that your signature at the end of the
11 statement, sir?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Sir, I am going to direct your attention to
14 the eighth paragraph, it's a paragraph that begins, "I
15 know that after the meeting, Zejnil Delalic joined the
16 patriotic movement and as a member of the Territorial
17 Defence". Do you see that paragraph, sir?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Sir, do you now agree with me that in your
20 prior statement, you indicated that when Mr. Delalic
21 took part in liberating the Celebici barracks, he did
22 so as a member of the Territorial Defence?
23 JUDGE JAN: What does it say there?
24 MS. McHENRY: I quoted that in the first time
25 I read it, sir.
1 JUDGE JAN: That's what his statement is?
2 MS. McHENRY: I'll ask him to explain it.
3 MS. RESIDOVIC: Your Honour, the witness has
4 answered this question twice.
5 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: I didn't see any
6 discrepancy between what he said here and what is in
7 this paragraph.
8 MS. McHENRY: Let me just ask.
9 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: You don't go about
10 asking questions when they are clear. I don't think
11 anybody does it. You read it again. Read it to
13 MS. McHENRY: Yes. I read it.
14 Q. Sir, is it correct that when Mr. Delalic
15 participated with you in liberating the Celebici
16 barracks, although he did not have a function, he did
17 so as a member of a Territorial Defence?
18 MS. RESIDOVIC: This question has also been
19 answered by the witness, so I object.
20 THE WITNESS: No, he was not a member of the
21 Territorial Defence, not in the capacity of a soldier,
22 nor as a soldier having a specific duty. What he did,
23 he did out of patriotic reasons with respect to the
24 Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina.
25 MS. McHENRY:
1 Q. Well, sir, can you explain what it means here
2 when it says, "As a member of the Territorial Defence"?
3 MS. RESIDOVIC: I don't know why you are
4 insisting on this. He has answered the question.
5 JUDGE JAN: What is he doing at the TO then?
6 He said without any functions. He went with the team.
7 He was living on logistics. That is what he says.
8 MS. McHENRY: Your Honour, I believe that
9 there's some question about whether or not he was a
10 member of the Territorial Defence.
11 JUDGE JAN: Then he must have some function
12 as a soldier, as a bureaucrat, as a member of the
14 MS. McHENRY: That's why I am asking the
15 witness to explain what he means when he says, "As a
16 member of the Territorial Defence".
17 Q. Sir, can you please explain to me what you
18 mean when you say, "As a member of the Territorial
20 JUDGE JAN: Read the whole statement,
21 everything on it. What does it say? Read the whole
22 statement. I have read the whole statement. Maybe
23 it's a misquote.
24 JUDGE JAN: Ask the question again. And what
25 he means by as a member of the deal without any
2 MS. McHENRY:
3 Q. Sir what do you mean when you say, "As member
4 of the Territorial Defence without any function"?
5 A. Esteemed Prosecutor, at the time, all we had
6 developed organisational structure of the detachments
7 and of the units and the personnel body of the -- had
8 knowledge of this. And nowhere, Mr. Delalic figured in
9 the documents, neither in the staff, nor in the units
10 or the detachments were subordinated to the staff, so
11 nowhere as a member of the Territorial Defence. I am
12 just pointing out that he was performing a patriotic
13 duty and obligation.
14 Q. Thank you, sir. Let me move on. Sir, you
15 testified about the war presidency, would you agree
16 with me that in order to organise better the
17 Territorial Defence units in Konjic, the war presidency
18 made frequent staff changes, including changing the
19 Territorial Defence commander?
20 A. In April, the war presidency did not carry
21 out such changes. These changes carried out by the
22 municipal parliament of Konjic within the framework of
23 its responsibilities and it, in fact, proposed, but
24 appointments, but actual appointments were made in
25 Sarajevo. During the war, the war presidency, which is
1 a civilian body, which functioned because the municipal
2 assembly was not able to function. I would not refer
3 to it as a war presidency. It had authority that is of
4 the municipal assembly. It could not carry out
5 changes. It could only make proposals and not carry
6 out changes because, otherwise, there would be an
7 interference of competency, of jurisdiction.
8 Q. Sir, is it the case -- well, let me just go
9 on. Now, you would agree with me, sir, that when Mr.
10 Ramic was appointed TO commander in May and then again
11 appointed TO commander in the beginning of June, there
12 was never ever written communication from Sarajevo, was
14 A. Written appointments, to be able to come from
15 Sarajevo, you have to understand the communication
16 problems we had between Konjic and Sarajevo.
17 Q. Sir, let me just tell you that sometimes if
18 you can just answer the question "yes or no", an
19 explanation may not be necessary, I may just be asking
20 you to confirm something and an explanation may not be
21 necessary. So if it's the case that written
22 appointments of TO commanders were not made by
23 Sarajevo, all you have to do is say "yes" and I think
24 we'll be finished more quickly.
25 A. Now I have to tell you, Mr. Ramic performed a
1 function. He was appointed and they do have those
2 documents, but those documents could not reach us in
3 time for the appointments because of the circumstances
4 I wanted to tell you about. In any case, his function
5 of commander was a legal function and there's -- there
6 is nothing debatable about it.
7 Q. Let me then ask you then, is it correct, sir,
8 that you have never seen any written appointment from
9 Mr. Ramic as TO commander in May at the beginning of
11 A. No, I couldn't see them for these reasons,
12 but I did see the appointments personally and they must
13 be somewhere in the archives.
14 Q. Sir, would you agree with me that in the
15 prior statement to the Defence, you stated in order to
16 organise better the Territorial Defence units in
17 Konjic's municipality, the war presidency of the
18 Konjic's municipal assembly made frequent staff
20 A. I don't agree with you.
21 Q. Okay. Sir, let me ask that you look at the
22 fourth paragraph of your statement which states at the
23 time this begins, at the time of the aggression against
24 the Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina. And the third
25 sentence, sir, do you agree with me, sir, that your
1 statement states in order to organise better, the
2 Territorial Defence units in Konjic's municipality, the
3 war presidency of the Konjic municipal assembly made
4 frequent staff changes?
5 A. I think my colleague did not understand me
6 well. I am just telling you -- I am telling you again
7 again, those authorisations of the municipal assembly,
8 I started working in '87 in the municipal staff and I
9 know what exactly are the competencies of the municipal
10 assembly, which were passed on. The municipal assembly
11 did this in the 70s, in the 60s, in the 80s and the
12 90s. It is the only one that is authorised to nominate
13 commanders of the TO staff. To add a brief CV and this
14 sent to the republican staff in the Sarajevo or the TO
15 staff of Bosnia-Herzegovina, which carries out the
16 actual appointments in accordance with its
18 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Will counsel kindly
19 indicate what is the inference of that sentence? Why
20 this question is relevant.
21 MS. McHENRY: Well, Your Honour, his
22 statement said something different from what he stated
23 in his testimony, and so I was trying to clarify.
24 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: What he says, and I
25 think it's legitimate, in order to organise better TO
1 units in Konjic, the war presidency of Konjic municipal
2 assembly may request changes. So I didn't think
3 anything wrong with that.
4 MS. McHENRY: Your Honour, I am not saying
5 that that's not correct. In fact, they did make
6 frequent staff changes, but the witness has just said
7 that it's not correct. In fact, he's stated that the
8 person to whom he gave his statement must have written
9 it down incorrectly because it does differ from his
11 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: I really don't see the
12 need for this caution because no problems staff changes
14 MS. McHENRY: I'll move on. I believe he's
15 stated -- he's given his explanation for it.
16 Q. Now, sir, when Mr. Delalic was appointed by
17 the war presidency of coordinator, you would agree with
18 me that it was to remove or resolve the differences
19 between the TO and the HVO?
20 A. I do not agree with your statement.
21 Q. Was Mr. Delalic appointed liaison officer by
22 the war presidency to remove or resolve the differences
23 between the TO and the HVO?
24 A. This could be called liaison officer
25 figuratively, but it doesn't mean anything. His role
1 was clearly stated by the legal authorities of Konjic's
3 Q. Sir, in May of 1992, did you see the
4 appointment of Mr. Delalic's coordinator?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. And when did you see it?
7 A. After my return from an artillery position at
8 Lakuica (phoen). I had learned that joint command had
9 been formed and that in that command I had been
10 appointed operations officer and this was around the
11 19th or the 20th. I wasn't there at any joint meeting
12 between the legal organs of authority and the military
13 bodies. That is, the TO, the HVO and the MUP. But the
14 function of coordinator, a decision taken by the war
15 presidency to that effect, I did see.
16 Q. And, sir, you would agree with me that in
17 your prior statement, you stated that Mr. Delalic was
18 appointed coordinator or liaison officer, among other
19 things, to remove the differences between the TO and
20 the HVO?
21 A. Yes, liaison officer, I use the term
22 figuratively, but this lady Seken Ragita (phoen), added
23 that I wish to underline that I used it figuratively to
24 explain it to her. But, in fact, Zejnil Delalic did
25 not that have that function. He was not authorised as
1 a coordinator to remove any disagreements. And these
2 disagreements were -- occurred frequently. For
3 instance, logistic requirements were made by a
4 representative of the HVO, the TO, the civilian
5 authorities had their own very wide range of difficult
6 problems, refugees, food supplies, shelter for the
7 population, provision of accommodation for the
8 refugees, so that the civilian authorities had these
9 problems to deal with. On the other hand, there were
10 representatives of the TO with their own demands, et
11 cetera, et cetera, et cetera.
12 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Thank you very much. I
13 think we'll have a break and assemble at four-thirty,
14 thirty minutes time.
15 --- Recess taken at 4.00 p.m.
16 --- Upon commencing at 4.33 p.m.
17 (The witness entered court)
18 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Kindly remind the
19 witness he's still under oath.
20 THE REGISTRAR: I remind you, sir, that you
21 are still under oath.
22 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Ms. McHenry, proceed,
24 MS. McHENRY: Thank you.
25 Q. Sir, if, in describing his various duties as
1 coordinator, Mr. Delalic said, among other things, he
2 was involved in resolving personnel matters between the
3 HVO and the TO, would that be consistent with your
5 A. No. Mr. Delalic never had such authority to
6 deal with personnel problems between the TO and the
7 HVO, nor any other disagreements. His function was
8 purely a function of coordination between the legal
9 authorities and the armed forces.
10 Q. Just to make sure I understand, in your prior
11 statement when you talk about Mr. Delalic's appointment
12 as one that was done to remove disputes, are you saying
13 that the Defence representative wrote down what you
14 said incorrectly or just that you misspoke when you
15 said it?
16 A. I don't understand the question. Could you
17 repeat it, especially the first part of the question?
18 What person are you referring to?
19 Q. Sir, immediately before the break, you had
20 looked at your statement and the discussion of where it
21 is reported that what you said was that Mr. Delalic was
22 appointed as coordinator or as liaison officer to
23 remove the disputes between the TO and the HVO. I know
24 you've explained what you now believe to be the correct
25 position, but my question is: Do you agree that you
1 said this in your statement to the Defence in June '96
2 or is it your position that you said something
3 different and she wrote it down wrong?
4 MS. RESIDOVIC: Your Honours, I wish to draw
5 attention to the fact that this is not being read
6 properly because the word used is "differences," rather
7 than "disputes" because the witness did not, in fact,
8 say that in his previous statement. The word used is
10 MS. McHENRY: I stand corrected. In my
11 understanding, they are the same.
12 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Now, is it your question
13 that he should understand what is stated as different
14 from what he told the person who wrote it down?
15 MS. McHENRY: Well, Your Honour, he has
16 testified to something different than what's in the
17 statement, and I've asked him about that, and he has
18 given me a long answer, and I don't understand if his
19 answer is saying that the person wrote it down wrong or
20 if, in fact, he said it, but is now just saying that
21 it's really not a correct description of the
23 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: If you would kindly be a
24 little more helpful to the Trial Chamber, let's hear
25 your proper formulation of what you think he said at
1 that time and what he now says it is.
2 MS. McHENRY: Okay.
3 Q. Sir, would you agree with me that the
4 recordation of your prior statement talks about, and
5 I'm referring to the paragraph that's in the middle of
6 the second page approximately, that says: "I also know
7 that Zejnil Delalic was on a decision of the Konjic
8 municipal war presidency, appointed coordinator between
9 the presidency and the Konjic municipality defence
10 forces." Do you see that paragraph?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. And it then goes on to say: "The defence
13 forces were composed of two components, the Territorial
14 Defence and the HVO, and had separate systems of
15 command and control. It was evident even then that
16 there were differences in the HVO concept of defence
17 against the aggression. In order to set up a better
18 system of defence and remove such differences, Zejnil
19 Delalic was appointed liaison officer." It then goes
20 on to say: "At a meeting between representatives of
21 the HVO and the Territorial Defence, held on the 20th
22 of May, Mr. Zejnil Delalic acquainted us with the paper
23 concerning his appointment to the post, so afterwards,
24 any problems with respect to that coordination we
25 resolved with Zejnil Delalic."
1 My question is, sir, do you agree that this
2 is what you said previously?
3 MS. RESIDOVIC: Your Honours --
4 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Don't you think it's
5 better you leave him to deal with it? Would you kindly
6 give your attention, I'm sure you can do that.
7 A. The first part of the text in which I say
8 that, by decision of the war presidency, the position
9 of coordinator was established, and I said quite
10 correctly what the coordination was, that is, between
11 the civilian organs of authority and the defence
12 forces. That is correct. The second part of your
13 citation linked to differences in terms of control and
14 command, and the disagreements that existed, I should
15 like to explain as follows.
16 Q. Well, sir, you can explain, but first before
17 you explain, can we just clarify, did you say this when
18 you gave your statement to the Defence or not?
19 A. The first part is accurate, but a moment ago,
20 I said that Ms. Senka Nojica didn't understand me
21 then. She didn't fully understand what I was saying.
22 This was in 1996. I have come here exclusively to
23 present to you the truth and to present the evidence
24 for you to be able to make relevant conclusions for
1 Q. So you believe, that she wrote down what you
2 said, incorrectly?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Thank you. Sir, I'm now going to go on.
5 Sir, you --
6 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Actually, what he's
7 saying is that what was written down might have been
8 what was thought as truth, but from the explanation he
9 was giving us, if what is meant is differences in the
10 concept of defence, it could not be. This is what he
11 was trying to explain to us, that Delalic could not
12 have been the liaison officer in respect of that type
13 of differences.
14 MS. McHENRY: That's correct, Your Honour,
15 and I was offering his prior statement for impeachment,
16 merely for purposes of Your Honours determining his
17 credibility, and you have heard his explanation and you
18 have the document. So you may make your own
20 Q. Now, sir, when shown a document by Ms.
21 Residovic concerning the railroad, a document signed by
22 Mr. Delalic and others, you indicated that Mr. Delalic
23 had been given a certain task regarding the railroad;
24 do you remember that?
25 A. Yes, at the proposal of the economic staff to
1 establish rail communication together with the
2 representatives of the management of the railway
4 Q. I'm not asking you to repeat it. I'm just
5 trying to remind you of the general subject matter so
6 that you will understand my next question. You don't
7 have to repeat what you have already said. If you
8 remember that, all you have to do is say, "Yes, I
9 remember." All right?
10 A. Will you please repeat your concrete
12 Q. My question is: Who exactly had given
13 Mr. Delalic the task regarding the railroad?
14 A. The economic staff.
15 Q. Is this the economic staff, is this a part of
16 the war presidency or the joint command or the TO?
17 A. It was one of the organs of authority formed
18 by the legal authorities to deal with the civilian
20 Q. So it was not any part of the TO or the joint
21 command; correct?
22 A. No.
23 Q. Let me just go on. In addition to this
24 document, I assume that you saw other orders that were
25 also signed by Mr. Delalic as coordinator; is that
2 A. I can't answer that question before I see
3 those documents. After all, it is 1998 now.
4 Q. Well, let me ask that you be shown documents,
5 Prosecution Exhibits 210 and 213. Let me ask while
6 we're getting those documents, because it may not even
7 be necessary for you to look at them, sir. Even if you
8 don't remember the specifics, would you agree with me
9 that there were some orders signed by Mr. Delalic that
10 did not involve logistics?
11 A. Could you be more precise, please?
12 Q. Well, sir, if you remember, did you see
13 documents in 1992 signed by Mr. Delalic in his role as
14 coordinator, that did not have to do with logistics?
15 A. If any documents were signed by him, on which
16 the function was indicated, the function of commander,
17 then Zejnil Delalic was probably a witness to an
18 agreement which he needed to coordinate the
19 relationship between the civilian authorities and the
20 military in connection with our needs regarding some
21 specific material. And if he signed, then he signed
22 only as an agreement and not as somebody having the
23 authority to give orders to members of the Territorial
25 Q. Let me go on, sir. Sir, am I correct that in
1 the joint command staff, you were officer for
2 operations in training and at the same time, in the TO
3 staff, you were chief of staff?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. So in addition to the joint command staff,
6 there was a separate TO staff; correct?
7 A. To ensure the better functioning of the
8 defence forces of the municipality of Konjic, we
9 attempted, through a joint command, to unify these two
10 components of the armed forces, to improve our
11 organisation and to be more successful in resisting the
12 aggression. Two systems which comprise the joint
13 command were the Territorial Defence and the Croatian
14 defence council, both systems had separate systems of
15 control and command, along vertical lines. May I
16 explain this?
17 Q. I think you already explained it.
18 JUDGE JAN: The answer was simple. You could
19 have said yes. You don't have to give extra
20 explanations when there is no confusion.
21 MS. McHENRY:
22 Q. Sir, you would agree with me that the set-up
23 of the joint command was not something envisioned in
24 the regulations of the Bosnian army, it was something
25 that Konjic did to try to solve the unusual and
1 difficult situation it was in; is that correct?
2 A. It was a specific decision.
3 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: I think what counsel is
4 suggesting, that device was improvised to meet the
5 difficulties of the situation which faced you. The
6 situation of the joint command was the advice to meet
7 the specific situation which confronted you at that
8 time, not necessarily the --
9 JUDGE JAN: The army was one, but one took
10 its instructions from Grude and the other took its
11 instructions from Sarajevo. In order to have joint
12 operations, you have one joint command. This is what
13 she's saying.
14 A. Your Honours, I fully agree with what you
15 have just said. That is exactly true.
16 MS. McHENRY: Thank you. Thank you, Your
18 Q. Now, sir, you testified there were occasions,
19 even extended occasions, when the appointed TO
20 commander was gone and you functioned as the TO
21 commander in his absence. You testified that one of
22 those occasions was during the second half of July.
23 JUDGE JAN: During the Oganj operations.
24 MS. McHENRY:
25 Q. Yes, sir. Approximately, sir, when were the
1 other occasions when you functioned as the TO
3 A. When commander Ramic was wounded at Prenj,
4 Mount Prenj. He personally told me, due to specific
5 circumstances, that I should take over command. Of
6 course, at the time when this oral authorisation was
7 given to me, because we had communications through
8 links, he didn't tell me he was wounded and this was
9 logical because that would be counterproductive for our
10 forces as we could be overheard by the enemy. So I
11 learned that later and this is only logical during
12 combat, when a commander is wounded.
13 JUDGE JAN: You need to answer the question.
14 When the Oganj operations started. You acted as a
15 commander. Was there any other occasion when you acted
16 as commander?
17 A. When the Oganj Operation started, the
18 commander was Mr. Esad Ramic.
19 JUDGE JAN: Was there any other occasion when
20 you acted as commander?
21 A. During the Oganj Operation, 15 or 16 days
22 later, when he was wounded, I took over, upon his
24 MS. McHENRY:
25 Q. Was there any other time, besides during the
1 second part of July during the Oganj Operation, was
2 there any other occasion where you functioned as TO
4 A. No.
5 JUDGE JAN: That is simple answer.
6 MS. McHENRY:
7 Q. Okay. During the Oganj Operation, when you
8 were functioning as TO commander, who functioned as
9 your chief of staff, if any one?
10 A. No one. No one could because we were in a
11 specific situation. There was a war and we were not
12 officers in offices. There were my friends getting
13 killed around me.
14 Q. Sir, you mentioned that Mr. Goran Lokas was
15 part of the security division of the joint command.
16 You also, I believe, indicated that Mr. Sacir Pajic was
17 part of the security of the joint command, is that
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Mr. Sacir Pajic was also part of the TO
21 command, wasn't he?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Now, when asked about who took over Mr. Goran
24 Lokas's function in the beginning of June when he left,
25 you talked about a Mr. Kostic. Is it your testimony
1 that Mr. Kostic took over the position of Mr. Lokas or
2 you don't know?
3 A. The position of chief of security in the
4 joint command was allotted to the Croatian Defence
5 Council. So as I saw Elvir Kostic there, who was a
6 former officer in the state security service, that he
7 held that position. No appointment was made by,
8 conditionally speaking, the TO to that position because
9 that position, according to the distribution of posts
10 in the joint command, was allotted to the Croatian
11 Defence Council.
12 Q. Was the position filled by the joint
13 command? Was there ever any discussion in the joint
14 command, of which you were a member, about the need to
15 fill this position?
16 A. No.
17 Q. Did Mr. Kostic attend meetings of the joint
19 A. The meetings that I attended were attended by
20 the following people or, rather, the people holding the
21 following positions: The commander, the logistics
22 officer, the chief of staff of the joint command. From
23 the security sector, rarely would somebody participate
24 at meetings having to do with some arrangements,
25 agreements, et cetera, especially Mr. Lokas, because he
1 spent very little of his time in the premises of the
2 joint command.
3 Q. Well, sir, is it a fair statement that you
4 don't know about the authority of persons who had
5 duties in the joint command or the TO command, that had
6 duties that were unrelated to your own duties?
7 MS. RESIDOVIC: I think that the question is
8 such that --
9 JUDGE JAN: It relates to one of the maps
10 which you produced in which he has drawn the various
11 functions in the joint command. She's questioning with
12 regard to that, whether -- it is in regard to that
13 question, the map, I think.
14 MS. McHENRY:
15 Q. Sir, do you need me to repeat the question?
16 A. Yes, please.
17 Q. Sir, is it a fair statement that you don't
18 know about the authority of other persons in the
19 command staff who had duties that were unrelated to
20 your own duties?
21 A. The duties depended on the positions. That
22 is clear. The name of the function is quite clear.
23 Assistant commander for logistics is responsible for
24 logistics. The head of the security sector deals with
25 security; intelligence with intelligence; the
1 operations sector, the operations. That is the only
2 answer I can give you as a military man.
3 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: With regard to what
4 you're saying, would you regard it as fair if anyone
5 made a comment that any persons whose duties are not
6 related to yours may not be familiar to you? That you
7 may not be familiar with the duties of those who are
8 not related to your own duties, even though they are in
9 the chart and you have so described them?
10 A. Theoretically speaking about the chart, I
11 know the theory of it, the jurisdiction of those
12 positions. During my work in the joint command, I
13 didn't know what they were doing on a daily basis
14 because there was no obligation for them to brief me
15 about those things, according to the control and
16 command structure.
17 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Why not --
18 JUDGE JAN: Maybe knowing the administrative
19 set-up, but not the person who were actually performing
20 those functions.
21 MS. McHENRY: I would think that's fair.
22 Q. You would agree with me, sir, for instance,
23 that your chart doesn't have Mr. Kostic even on the
25 A. Mr. Kostic is not on the chart, but his
1 sector is on the chart, the security sector.
2 Q. Thank you. Now, sir, you've stated that
3 during the Borci Operation, Mr. Delalic was functioning
4 in a military capacity as a soldier; is that correct?
5 A. Yes. Everything I said about Mr. Delalic
6 during the Borci Operation, everything is correct.
7 Q. You would agree with me, sir, that when the
8 Borci Operation was being planned, Mr. Delalic was
9 involved in his function as a coordinator?
10 A. No, I will not agree with you. Mr. Delalic
11 does not have military and technical knowledge to plan
12 an action such as Borci. This is a very serious
14 JUDGE JAN: Not even as a logistics officer?
15 Not even as a person responsible for logistics?
16 A. Even as a person involved in logistics, but
17 Mr. Kevric was present there on matters of logistics.
18 Mr. Delalic was requested to perform a military role,
19 not to issue orders, but to carry on a military
20 function, given his abilities to help us in the
21 logistic security area, because the situation was
22 specific in terms of the terrain and communication
23 links, and to convey requests from Glavaticevo to
24 Konjic and establish contact with the local population
25 for transporting.
1 JUDGE JAN: Very well.
2 MS. McHENRY:
3 Q. Sir, you would agree with me that in his
4 function as coordinator, including coordinating between
5 the war presidency and the Defence forces, Mr. Delalic
6 was at least knowledgeable about the operation in Borci
7 being planned?
8 A. Well, through Mr. Delalic, we established
9 contacts vis-à-vis the authorities concerning a number
10 of needs. The needs related to the provision of first
11 aid equipment, transport conveyance, and needs which
12 could be provided by the civilian authorities.
13 Q. You would agree that the order that you
14 referred to signed by Mr. Ramic about the Borci
15 operation, one copy was sent to Mr. Delalic and another
16 copy was sent to the war presidency? Would you agree
17 with that?
18 If you need to see the order to answer that
19 question, we can show it to you.
20 A. No, I don't need to see the order. I would
21 like to only say that it is quite normal that on the
22 basis of a written document, we inform the civilian
23 authorities what our intentions are and also the
24 coordinator what our intentions were, because we cannot
25 say in a figurative sense, "We need this and that." We
1 must explain why we need all this because we are a poor
2 town and we cannot just ask for anything.
3 Q. Sir, you will also agree with me that in Mr.
4 Ramic's order for Borci operations, he gives certain
5 orders to the MUP units, to the MUP units that were
6 going to participate in the operation?
7 JUDGE JAN: Is it really relevant?
8 MS. McHENRY: Well, Your Honour, I think the
9 fact that orders were being given to the MUP units by
10 the TO commander is relevant to, in general, showing
11 the complexity and the intermixing of all the various
12 parts of the defence forces in Konjic.
13 JUDGE JAN: MUP also had some combat units,
14 and from Borci, after the HVO -- particularly, after
15 the HVO withdrew, they needed to collect all the forces
16 available to make the operation successful.
17 MS. McHENRY: That's right. If this witness
18 agrees that under certain circumstances the TO
19 commander had authority to give orders to the MUP, I
20 don't have any other questions.
21 JUDGE JAN: Maybe the MUP representative
22 attended the meeting where it was decided to have this
24 MS. McHENRY: Maybe, but if what this witness
25 says is correct, it would still be unusual and, in
1 fact, not possible for Mr. Ramic to give orders to the
2 MUP unit, so I am just finding that out.
3 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Yes.
4 MS. McHENRY:
5 Q. Sir, do you agree with me that there were
6 certain occasions, including for the Borci operation,
7 when Mr. Ramic gave orders to MUP units?
8 A. This is not illogical. I would contact the
9 Devil himself to save my country.
10 Q. Thank you. Now, sir, you talked about
11 Tactical Group 1. In 1992, did you, yourself, ever see
12 any order or orders appointing Mr. Delalic as commander
13 of Tactical Group 1?
14 A. Yes, I think I saw such documents at the
15 beginning of the month of July.
16 Q. Do you recollect how many orders you saw
17 regarding Mr. Delalic's appointment as Tactical Group 1
19 A. No, I couldn't remember.
20 MS. RESIDOVIC: He said at the beginning of
21 August. I'm sorry. It's not at the beginning of
22 July. It's at the beginning of August that he saw
23 those orders, at the beginning of the month of August.
24 MS. McHENRY:
25 Q. Now, sir, you would agree with me that the
1 supreme command could have appointed a Tactical Group
2 commander to have authority over all units falling
3 within the authority of the supreme command? Let me
4 clarify. I am not asking you for your opinion as to
5 what the supreme command did, since you're not a member
6 of the supreme command. I'm just questioning you about
7 something you said in direct.
8 You would agree with me that the supreme
9 command could have appointed a tactical group commander
10 to have authority over all units that fell within the
11 authority of the supreme command?
12 A. Your wording of your question, the way you
13 formulated it, is not clear to me.
14 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: It's a hypothetical
15 statement, your thoughts, whatever way you look at it.
16 I agree that it could or might not, but it's not
17 directed at any particular situation.
18 A. There could have been some appointments, as
19 the Prosecutor states, of all the formations in the
20 case of Jablanica and Dreznica. This could have
21 occurred through ignorance of someone belonging to the
22 staff or of someone who was there. When I saw such an
23 order, I realised that this was a question of military
24 ignorance, especially when the words "all armed
25 formations" are used, all armed formations in Javica
1 (phoen), Jablanica and Konjic, where the MUP, the HVO
2 and the TO. The HVO was never subordinated to the
3 command of the formation of the armed forces.
4 MS. McHENRY:
5 Q. I think you've explained that. My specific
6 question was: Certainly, you would agree that the
7 supreme command have the authority to appoint a
8 Tactical Group commander as a superior authority over
9 all units falling within the authority of the supreme
11 JUDGE JAN: Yes. This question is very
12 simple. The supreme command could place --
13 A. The question is very simple. The supreme
14 command was authorised to form tactical groups and to
15 order the municipal staff to subordinate the Tactical
16 Group for certain tasks in a given area and for a given
17 period of time.
18 MS. McHENRY:
19 Q. Thank you. Sir, who were members of the
20 Tactical Group 1 staff?
21 A. Which period do you have in mind?
22 Q. The period from June until November. If you
23 want to make a distinction, you can tell us who was a
24 member of the staff when Mr. Polutak was commander and
25 who was a member of the staff when Mr. Delalic was
2 A. When Mr. Mustafa Polutak was commander, I
3 know him personally, and the chief of staff was Mr.
4 Pelica (phoen), former officer of the JNA, and he
5 contacted him on matters of artillery. During the TG-1
6 when Mr. Delalic was in charge, I don't know who was in
7 the staff. I don't know much about their structure and
8 the names of the persons involved. This was not my
9 duty to know them.
10 JUDGE JAN: No, it is not your duty.
11 MS. McHENRY:
12 Q. Now, sir, you testified, and you can correct
13 me if I am wrong, that the purpose of Tactical Group 1
14 was to lift the siege of Sarajevo and the purpose of
15 the JUG Operation was to lift the siege of Sarajevo.
16 My question is: Is it the case that all the troops
17 from Konjic who participated in JUG 92 were
18 subordinated to either Tactical Group 1 or Tactical
19 Group 2?
20 A. The units which the municipal staff of the
21 Territorial Defence of Konjic subordinated to TG-1,
22 once they arrived in Pazaric, they automatically
23 subordinated to TG-1. The units which we sent to the
24 zone of responsibility of TG-2, when we brought them
25 there, they are subordinated to the commander of TG-2.
1 JUDGE JAN: Just before you start the next
2 question, there was Operation Oganj going on.
3 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, Your Honour.
4 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Operation Oganj also was
5 going on about the same time. When were the troops
6 from this Oganj Operation withdrawn from there? See,
7 there were two operations, TG-1 lifting the siege of
8 Sarajevo; Oganj to liberate the Borci and the
9 surrounding area. Certain troops of yours were
10 committed to the Oganj Operation. Certain troops were
11 committed to Sarajevo. When were the troops committed
12 to the Oganj Operation withdrawn from there? TG-1 is
13 not concerned with the Oganj Operation.
14 A. TG-1 had no connection with the Borci
15 Operation. Borci Operation was carried out on order of
16 the command of Sarajevo in order to relieve pressure on
17 our forces in Sarajevo. Our task was to make it easier
18 for our defence forces who were around Sarajevo to draw
19 some troops to our side and to liberate some of the
20 barracks to reach the Nevesinje Ploca.
21 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please, Your
23 JUDGE JAN: Troops which were committed to
24 the Oganj Operation, were they withdrawn from there?
25 Because one of the witnesses has said that they didn't
1 want the Borci area to remain undefended because they
2 were afraid there might be an attack on Konjic from the
3 Borci side.
4 A. The Operation Oganj lasted a little over the
5 month. Of course, all the units were not withdrawn
6 from the operation. Some of them remained to carry on
7 daily activities and we continued until the signing of
8 the Dayton Agreements. We continued our combat
9 activity for the liberation of the country. This is
10 quite normal.
11 JUDGE JAN: When you talk about all
12 formations, you also have to take into consideration
13 troops considered for Oganj.
14 MS. McHENRY:
15 Q. Sir, let me go back for a minute. Is it the
16 case when you stated in direct examination that you led
17 a group that was subordinated to Tactical Group 2, do
18 you mean that you just physically led the group there
19 or do you mean that you, for some period of time, were
20 subordinated to Tactical Group 2?
21 A. Initially, I took the group to the Trnovo
22 area. Before then, I went to the command of TG-2 to
23 find what the tasks to accomplish were and to the
24 commander of the unit, Mr. Zlatan Regic (phoen), who
25 was appointed commander of the unit, to give Mr. Regic
1 instructions for his further work.
2 Q. Was this during the time that you were chief
3 of staff for the TO, sir?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Now, sir, you mentioned before that the
6 Gijret unit, for a time, was subordinate to Tactical
7 Group 1. For how long a time was the Gijret unit
8 subordinate to Tactical Group 1?
9 A. I cannot say exactly how long this
10 subordination lasted. I don't think it lasted long.
11 Once the tasks were taken care of, they returned to
12 Konjic and became a part of the municipal staff again.
13 So once they returned to Konjic, they were no longer
14 subordinated to the command of the TG-2.
15 Q. Now, sir, I'm correct that the Oganj
16 Operation -- well, let me go on, actually. Sir, were
17 there ever any soldier units from Konjic who were
18 subordinate to Mr. Delalic when he was commander of
19 Tactical Group 1?
20 A. Kindly repeat the question. I'm sorry.
21 Q. When Mr. Delalic was commander of Tactical
22 Group 1, were there any units that were subordinated to
23 Tactical Group 1?
24 JUDGE JAN: Troops from Konjic.
25 MS. McHENRY: Troops from Konjic, yes, I'm
1 sorry. Thank you, Your Honour.
2 A. I already answered the question a long time
3 ago. This was on the order of Mr. Ramic.
4 JUDGE JAN: He, in fact, yesterday mentioned
5 the name of the leader of the troops which were
6 committed from Konjic to TG-1 when (inaudible) was the
7 commander? (Judge Jan's mic not on)
8 MS. McHENRY:
9 Q. I'm sorry. Can I just ask you, sir, to
10 potentially repeat what you stated before? How many
11 soldiers and for what unit were subordinated to
12 Mr. Delalic when he was commander of Tactical Group 1?
13 A. You asked me the question as to the number of
14 soldiers, soldiers who belonged to a unit called
15 Gijret. There were about 200 soldiers, but army as
16 such, not. The terminology is wrong. "Army" is wrong
17 to use. "Soldiers" is the right term.
18 Q. I'm sorry. Sir, didn't you just say that the
19 Gijret unit was no longer subordinate to Tactical Group
20 1 when Mr. Delalic was commander?
21 A. The task was completed with regard to TG-1,
22 Tactical Group 1. The commander was Mr. Polutak and
23 you keep mentioning Mr. Delalic. The unit of Gijret
24 went back to Konjic and automatically returns to its
25 own organisational formation, structure. So do not
1 mention Mr. Delalic with reference to TG-1 and Gijret.
2 This unit was subordinate to Mr. Mustafa Polutak in
4 Q. Sir, I understood your testimony about that,
5 and that's why --
6 MS. McHENRY: Do you want me to continue,
7 Your Honour or do you want me to stop?
8 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Let's get this issue
9 clear because it's still not satisfactory.
10 What happened when Delalic was appointed to
11 Tactical Group 1? Was he not assigned any men to work
12 with him?
13 A. Of course he needed to have men to work with
14 him. There was a staff up there, the brain behind it
15 all. I'm not familiar with that staff and I do not
16 know how Mr. Delalic organised that. Those are his
17 responsibilities. At the time, I didn't have any right
18 to interfere. I had my permanent, regular activities
19 in Konjic.
20 JUDGE JAN: Learned counsel is asking, how
21 many units from Konjic TO were placed under the command
22 of Zejnil Delalic when he became the commander of
23 TG-1? How many units from TO were detached and sent to
25 A. To TG-1?
1 MS. McHENRY:
2 Q. Yes, sir.
3 A. While Mr. Zejnil Delalic was commander, as
4 far as I know, not a single unit, not a single unit.
5 JUDGE JAN: This is the answer.
6 MS. McHENRY:
7 Q. So, sir, if there is a chart that shows there
8 were between 3 and 500 soldiers attached to Tactical
9 Group 1 during the time that Mr. Delalic was commander
10 of Tactical Group 1, that chart would be incorrect,
11 according to your testimony?
12 A. You keep saying that I said that 200 soldiers
13 were subordinated to Mr. Zejnil Delalic. That is not
14 correct. I have just said that not a single unit, no
15 fixed number of soldiers, as far as I know during the
16 existence of Tactical Group 1 while Mr. Zejnil Delalic
17 was commander, were sent by order of the TO commander
18 to that Tactical Group.
19 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: I suppose we can end
20 here and continue by 10.00 tomorrow morning.
21 MS. McHENRY: Thank you, Your Honour.
22 --- Whereupon hearing adjourned at 5.30 p.m.
23 to be reconvened on Wednesday, the 20th day
24 of May, 1998 at 10.00 a.m.