1 --- Upon commencing at 10.51 a.m.
2 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Good morning, ladies and
4 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honour,
5 case number IT-96-21-T.
6 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: May we have the
7 appearances, please?
8 MS. McHENRY: Good morning, Your Honours,
9 Theresa McHenry for the Prosecution appearing with Mr.
10 Turone and Ms. Udo. Mr. Niemann will be joining us
11 later this morning. Thank you.
12 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Can we have the
13 appearances for the Defence, please?
14 MS. RESIDOVIC: Good morning, Your Honours.
15 My name is Edina Residovic appearing on behalf of
16 Mr. Zejnil Delalic along with my colleague Professor
17 Eugene O'Sullivan from Canada.
18 MR. OLUJIC: Good morning, Your Honours. My
19 name is Zelko Olujic, attorney from Croatia, appearing
20 on behalf of Zdravko Mucic along with my colleague
21 Tomislav Kuzmanovic, attorney from the United States of
23 MR. KARABDIC: Good morning, Your Honours.
24 I'm Salih Karabdic, attorney from Sarajevo, appearing
25 on behalf of Mr. Hazim Delic along with my learned
1 colleague Mr. Thomas Moran, attorney from Houston,
3 MS. BOLER: Good morning, Your Honours. My
4 name is Nancy Boler and I represent Esad Landzo. I
5 will tell you that it is my understanding that Cynthia
6 McMurrey is on a plane now and should arrive in
7 Amsterdam early this afternoon.
8 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Thank you very much.
9 Please have the witness come in.
10 (The witness entered court)
11 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Ms. Residovic, if you
12 might proceed with the witness.
13 MS. RESIDOVIC: Thank you, Your Honours.
14 RUSMIR SAFET HADZIHUSEINOVIC
15 Examined by Ms. Residovic
16 Q. Mr. Hadzihuseinovic, good morning.
17 A. Good morning.
18 Q. I hope you had a good night's rest and that
19 today's interview will be smooth. Yesterday before the
20 break, we discussed some of the competencies of the war
21 presidency; do you remember that?
22 A. I do.
23 Q. Tell me, please, Mr. Hadzihuseinovic, did the
24 war presidency have any kind of authority in relation
25 to the prisons?
1 A. The war presidency had absolutely no
2 authority with respect to the prisons.
3 Q. You said yesterday that the chief of the
4 public security station was ex officio member of the
5 war presidency. My question is: To whom was the
6 public security station in Konjic subordinated?
7 A. The public security station in Konjic was
8 subordinated to the ministry of internal affairs of the
9 republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina.
10 Q. Could the war presidency take decisions on
11 the formation of prisons?
12 A. Such decisions, the war presidency could
13 never take because it was not part of its competencies.
14 Q. Could the war presidency take decisions on
15 the detention of people in prisons?
16 A. In view of what I have just said, the war
17 presidency cannot do that.
18 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: It was stated by this
19 witness that your client was never a member of the war
20 presidency and could not have been. I don't see why
21 all this concerns the witness at all, if you are
22 talking anything relating to the client, to the Defence
23 of the accused.
24 MS. RESIDOVIC: Yes. That is precisely my
25 next question.
1 Q. Could you, having appointed a person as a
2 coordinator, convey to him, any authority, in relation
3 to the prison?
4 A. Absolutely not.
5 Q. In addition to what you have told us, as
6 being the duties of the coordinator, did the war
7 presidency, or you personally, ever give Mr. Delalic
8 any other authorisations which are not contained in the
9 decision on his appointment?
10 A. The war presidency could not give Mr. Delalic
11 any authority that would go beyond the authority of the
12 war presidency itself.
13 Q. Who appointed persons of Croatian ethnicity
14 to certain posts in those days?
15 A. Those appointments could only have been done
16 by authorised people in the Croatian Defence Council.
17 Q. Did you have any authority to appoint members
18 of the military investigations commission and to convey
19 such rights to anyone else?
20 A. I personally, nor the war presidency, had any
21 authority to appoint members of that commission, nor
22 could it give it any particular assignment.
23 Q. In spite of the fact that you had no such
24 authority, did you at any point in time authorise
25 Mr. Zejnil Delalic to appoint any one of the members of
1 the military investigations commission?
2 A. The war presidency did not give Mr. Delalic
3 such authority, nor could it.
4 Q. If anyone were to tell you that Zejnil
5 Delalic appointed Jerko Kostic to the military
6 investigations commission, what would you,
7 Hadzihuseinovic, say to that?
8 A. I'm not interested, now, about what anyone
9 may have said. I'm speaking here under oath, and I
10 think that if anybody did say that, then it is not
12 Q. Mr. Hadzihuseinovic, you said that you were
13 aware of combat operations being conducted on the basis
14 of decisions by military organs to deblock the town.
15 Tell me, please, are you personally aware that after
16 the lifting of the blockade of the town to the north,
17 that is, in the area of Bradina and in the south-west in
18 the area of Donje Selo, were after that a number of
19 persons arrested and taken into custody?
20 A. Yes, I'm aware of that fact.
21 Q. In view of the fact that you already stated
22 here in court, which were the bodies responsible, which
23 had the powers to arrest, did the coordinator whom you
24 appointed have any authority in terms of arrest and
1 A. By definition of the function he performed,
2 he could not have had any such powers.
3 Q. After the detention of these people, did you,
4 Mr. Hadzihuseinovic, go to Celebici and see those
6 A. Yes. I saw them on one occasion during a
7 medical examinations, as a doctor, because the medical
8 centre, as an institution, founded by the war
9 presidency, formed a medical commission consisting of
10 several members to examine those persons and to provide
11 medical care for them. That was the duty of this
13 MS. RESIDOVIC: I apologise, Your Honours,
14 I'm getting the French interpretation. It's fine now,
15 thank you. I apologise.
16 Q. Please continue, Mr. Hadzihuseinovic.
17 A. I think I've answered your question. I was
18 aware of that fact when a medical commission was formed
19 by the medical centre in Konjic, which was an
20 institution set up by the municipality, and the duty of
21 which, is to take care of the health of all the
22 inhabitants of the municipality of Konjic. The
23 detained persons were citizens of Konjic municipality.
24 Q. As a doctor who examined the detainees, can
25 you tell us whether you extended aid and what kind of
1 injuries you found?
2 A. The detained persons came from the area of
3 combat operations and they had the injuries inflicted
4 in war. Those with minor injuries, aid was extended ad
5 hoc, and those who had more serious injuries, they were
7 Q. Thank you. After this examination which, as
8 you said, occurred immediately after these people were
9 taken into custody, did you, as the president of the
10 war presidency, take a decision regarding the health
11 care of these detainees?
12 A. After these police and military operations in
13 the areas mentioned, the war presidency at its session
14 held on June 3rd, of that year, adopted a series of
15 conclusions, and one of those was related to the civil
16 defence bodies, as well as the medical centre as a
17 health care institution. Those decisions had to do
18 with extending medical services and other humanitarian
19 services to all persons including those in detention.
20 MS. RESIDOVIC: Before the recess yesterday,
21 Mr. Hadzihuseinovic was shown the conclusions. This is
22 Defence Exhibit D136, D14. Could these conclusions be
23 shown to the doctor once again, whether those are the
24 conclusions he has just referred to?
25 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Do you have some other
1 questions now, you can ask? Will you please continue
2 with your other questions. He remembers the
3 conclusions which he made and that should be enough for
4 the trial.
5 MS. RESIDOVIC: Yes, Your Honours. This
6 witness has signed these conclusions. I would like to
7 show them to him if they are found, but I will
9 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Please proceed.
10 MS. RESIDOVIC:
11 Q. Mr. Hadzihuseinovic, could you please tell me
12 since you spoke about serious shortages in town, did
13 the war presidency, in discharging its constitutional
14 obligations regarding the supply of the population and
15 the armed forces; did it give certain assignments to
16 deal with the problem?
17 A. Yes, certainly. We gave such authorisation
18 to all people who could, in whatever way, be of
19 assistance in terms of procurement of food supplies,
20 fuel and all other supplies required for the
21 functioning of the municipality. We gave quite a
22 number of such authorisations.
23 Q. Tell me, please, Mr. Hadzihuseinovic, before
24 Zejnil Delalic was appointed coordinator on the 18th of
25 May, did the war presidency give Zejnil Delalic any
1 such authorisation along the lines of what you have
2 just described?
3 A. Yes, I do remember. We did give such an
4 authorisation to Mr. Delalic and it had to do with the
5 procurement of material and equipment which Mr. Delalic
6 was about to carry out in the Republic of Croatia.
7 MS. RESIDOVIC: With the help of the usher,
8 could Mr. Hadzihuseinovic be shown Prosecutor's Exhibit
9 99-7/4. Do you have the Bosnian version, please?
10 Perhaps it's underneath.
11 Q. Mr. Hadzihuseinovic, are you the signatory of
12 this authorisation issued by the war presidency?
13 A. Yes, I am.
14 Q. This authorisation which you gave to
15 Mr. Delalic, did it give him any kind of military
16 powers or functions?
17 A. No, absolutely not. All the points of this
18 authorisation have to do with equipment, supplies and
19 distribution of supplies which is clearly stated in the
20 preamble of this authorisation, and it has no other
22 Q. Mr. Hadzihuseinovic, did the signatures of
23 military commanders figure sometimes on your
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. Can you please explain to the court why
2 authorisations issued by the war presidency, to a
3 person, to travel, are sometimes signed by military
5 A. Yes. The signatures of military commanders
6 appear simply as confirmation of their being informed
7 and being present and they mean nothing more than
9 Q. Could a military conscript abandon the
10 territory of the municipality without the signature of
11 a military commander, in those days?
12 A. No military conscript, at the time, could
13 leave the territory of Konjic municipality without
14 having the permission of the competent -- of the
15 appropriate national defence command.
16 Q. Was this too the reason why these
17 authorisations issued by military commanders were also
18 signed by military -- issued by the civilian
19 authorities were also signed by military commanders?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. One further question in connection with this
22 document, Mr. Hadzihuseinovic. This document, whereby
23 you authorised Mr. Delalic to undertake certain steps
24 to procure war equipment, did this document and this
25 authorisation give Mr. Delalic any kind of command
1 function or a position of superior authority over any
3 A. No, this authorisation could not give him
5 Q. Thank you very much. Mr. Hadzihuseinovic,
6 which were the acts which the war presidency, as a body
7 substituting for the assembly, could adopt?
8 A. The war presidency could issue all acts
9 stipulated by the constitution and legal regulations,
10 as well as those enactments envisaged by the statute of
11 Konjic Municipality. Those listed in Article 66 of
12 that statute. And they are conclusions, decisions and
14 Q. Thank you. If the war presidency issued
15 orders, which bodies could those orders refer to?
16 A. When issuing orders, the war presidency could
17 only issue them with respect to the administrative
18 bodies of the Municipality of Konjic. And institutions
19 founded by it, such as, for instance, the medical
20 centre, civil defence, social welfare institutions and
21 the like.
22 Q. Thank you. Mr. Hadzihuseinovic, did you
23 sometimes transfer those authorities -- those powers to
24 issue orders to Mr. Zejnil Delalic as the coordinator?
25 A. At no point in time could the war presidency
1 convey, nor did it convey or transfer such authority to
2 Mr. Delalic. He was just a coordinator.
3 Q. Mr. Hadzihuseinovic, did you personally
4 attend the sending off of the Gijret unit, which was to
5 be subordinated to Tactical Group 1 in the month of
6 June, 1992?
7 A. Yes, I was invited and I attended that
9 Q. Can you tell me what was the role of Mr.
10 Zejnil Delalic on that occasion and what was yours?
11 A. Yes, I can. Because those roles were to a
12 certain point similar. We were just guests at a solemn
13 occasion to see off a military unit going on
14 assignment. We were not the only ones there. There
15 were other people from the economic life of the
16 municipality. We were present as civilians.
17 Q. Who was the commander of Konjic in the time?
18 A. I think at the time, the commander of the
19 municipal staff in Konjic was Mr. Esad Ramic.
20 Q. Mr. Hadzihuseinovic, yesterday, in answer to
21 my questions, you said that, in fact, the duty of
22 coordinator lasted until Mr. Delalic went into combat
23 within the framework of Oranj Operation, but that, in
24 fact, it continued until he became commander of
25 Tactical Group 1, though he spent the whole of July in
1 the area of Mount Prenj. Tell me please, did you ever
2 tour the front lines?
3 A. Yes, I did visit the combat areas on two
5 Q. Can you tell us, Mr. Hadzihuseinovic,
6 whether, at the time, Mr. Zejnil Delalic had any
7 command function in that operation?
8 A. No, absolutely not. He couldn't have had.
9 The command functions at the time were held by Mr. Esad
10 Ramic and the chief of staff, Mr. Tahirovic. And Mr.
11 Delalic was there as a logistics officer, but his
12 function of coordinator did not cease while he was
14 Q. How do you personally know that he engaged in
15 logistic affairs? Did you talk to him during that
16 visit about any, anything at all?
17 A. Yes, I remember well because I was due to go
18 to Split on business and I talked to him about the
19 needs, logistic needs, so I asked him if he could
20 convey that to the economic staff, if he had any such
21 requests. And after that visit, I left for Split the
22 next day.
23 Q. Mr. Hadzihuseinovic, in that period of time,
24 that is in the summer of 1992, did you have occasion to
25 talk to journalists visiting the town?
1 A. Yes, on a number of occasions because Konjic
2 was a town visited by many people, many delegations in
3 those days. Among others, many teams of journalists
4 are from Croatia and from abroad.
5 Q. Though some time has past since then, do you
6 remember whether that summer in '92 you were visited by
7 a group of Arab journalists?
8 A. Yes, I remember that particularly well.
9 Q. Could you explain why?
10 A. You see because the majority of
11 representatives of the media that came to Konjic would
12 talk to me in my office, but this group of journalists
13 expressed the wish to visit the combat lines, which I
14 found unusual. And furthermore, they also expressed
15 the wish to visit the prison, the Celebici prison, and
16 that is why I remember that visit.
17 Q. Mr. Hadzihuseinovic, did you assist this team
18 in fulfilling their wishes?
19 A. In view of the visit to the front lines, as
20 well as the visit to the prison, it was not within my
21 jurisdiction. Actually, it was not within my power to
22 permit such visits. I called up the competent bodies,
23 or rather, the people in those bodies of the
24 Territorial Defence and I think that they made it
25 possible for them to visit, both the front lines and
1 the Celebici prison.
2 Q. Mr. Hadzihuseinovic, did you meet with them
3 after those visits?
4 A. I think that we did meet briefly. And that
5 their impressions about those visits were positive.
6 They even promised that they would send me some
7 excerpts from their newspapers. I think this was a
8 newspaper published somewhere in London. However, in
9 view of the blockade and communications because of the
10 war, I never received those reports.
11 Q. Mr. Hadzihuseinovic, as we are talking about
12 the summer of '92, the month of July, tell me, was
13 there a function of regional commander there?
14 A. That function did not exist. It is -- it
15 does not exist. I am not aware of it.
16 Q. Tell me, Mr. Hadzihuseinovic, do you know if
17 Mr. Zejnil Delalic was appointed by the supreme command
18 to a military function?
19 A. Yes, I do know of that as a fact. I think
20 that Mr. Delalic was appointed commander of Tactical
21 Group 1 about the end of July, as far as I recall.
22 Q. After that time, did Mr. Zejnil Delalic have
23 any authority with respect to the war presidency of
25 A. After that appointment, Zejnil Delalic was
1 directly subordinated to the appropriate military
2 bodies. That is, the supreme command. And he had no
3 authority or relations with the war presidency. From
4 then on he became a military man.
5 Q. Mr. Hadzihuseinovic, do you know whether,
6 after that, Mr. Zejnil Delalic was given any kind of
7 authority over the prison in Konjic?
8 A. No, absolutely not. He couldn't have been
9 given any such authority.
10 JUDGE JAN: The war presidency, he had
11 nothing to do with the president. How would he know?
12 He never gave authority even when he was a coordinator
13 with the prison authorities. Why are you asking a
14 question with regard to which he is not a competent
15 witness? Please confine yourself to what he can
16 suppose and which is relevant for our case, nothing
17 more than that.
18 MS. RESIDOVIC: I thought that this man, as a
19 citizen of Konjic, may know this from personal
20 experience, not just as the president of the war
21 presidency, but -- I understand what you have said.
22 Q. Mr. Hadzihuseinovic, as the president of the
23 war presidency, did you visit the Celebici barracks
24 at -- on any other occasion?
25 JUDGE JAN: He said he visited once only as a
2 THE WITNESS: I did visit it once more, this
3 compound, when a Territorial Defence unit was being
4 sworn in, so I visited the compound twice, once as a
5 doctor and once as a guest, as the president, during
6 the solemn occasion of the swearing in of an unit of
7 Territorial Defence of Konjic.
8 MS. RESIDOVIC:
9 Q. On that occasion, did you personally know or
10 see whether Zejnil Delalic, who was at that time
11 commander of Tactical Group 1, did he attend that
13 A. I remember that he did attend the ceremony --
14 no, I'm sorry, the interpreter corrects himself --
15 herself. I remember that the commander Esad Ramic was
16 present, but I am not sure that Mr. Delalic was there,
17 but since he had a military function, he may have been
19 Q. Can you just remember when that was?
20 A. Unfortunately, I cannot recall the date.
21 Q. Thank you. After the appointment of Mr.
22 Delalic to this military function, did you come across
24 A. Very, very rarely because there was no
25 reason. Activities were different. We had two
1 different kinds of tasks.
2 Q. Do you know when Mr. Delalic, and under what
3 circumstances, left Konjic?
4 A. I think as far as I can recall --
5 JUDGE JAN: Your evidence is, the evidence
6 indicates that even General Ahmed suggested to him that
7 he should disappear because there have been attacks on
8 his life.
9 THE WITNESS: I know that.
10 JUDGE JAN: How can he add to that
11 information? He just left suddenly.
12 MS. RESIDOVIC: Well, this was the president
13 of the municipality, it was a citizen of his town. He
14 had experienced this and he knows more than the
15 deceased personally.
16 JUDGE JAN: We already know about that.
17 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: It's possible for every
18 other citizen. Any other citizen, he has competence to
19 give evidence about him. You brought him for certain
20 purposes and it's clear and his evidence should be
21 directed towards those purposes and no more. Don't go
22 wider than that. This is a duplication we have been
23 talking about all along. And you have so many of your
24 witnesses on the same theme, coming to say the same
1 MS. RESIDOVIC: They're witnesses, yes. The
2 other witnesses do not have any personal knowledge.
3 The witness does have personal knowledge and I think
4 that you will find those witnesses very precious
5 indeed. Since I will be concluding my interrogation of
6 this witness in a few moments, may I be allowed to ask
7 him two questions of which he is personally
9 Q. Do you know how and under what circumstances
10 Mr. Delalic left Konjic?
11 A. Yes, I am personally aware of that. Mr.
12 Delalic, as far as I know, he left Konjic in November
13 of 1992 because there was a danger on -- for his life.
14 He was -- there was even an attempt to assassinate him
15 in his family home and luckily he survived this and
16 after that he left Konjic. There were different
17 stories with this respect, how he actually left the
18 municipality. I think these were merely speculations.
19 But what I have just mentioned is the fundamental
20 reason why he left. Because Mr. Delalic was a very
21 capable man and he personally appointed two various
22 obstructions between the TO and the HVO, which, at the
23 time, carried out such obstructions and that is why I
24 think he was a target of such structures and bodies.
25 Q. During the examination in chief, my last
1 question to Mr. Hadzihuseinovic, after the departure of
2 Mr. Delalic, did a false propaganda start in relation
3 to him?
4 A. Absolutely. But this did not really reflect
5 the truth. There were lots of accusations launched
6 against him, which were basically groundless. They
7 even went so far as to say that he had left Konjic by a
8 helicopter owned by the Serb forces, which was just a
9 fantasy. And there was a whole series of other things,
10 which did not simply reflect the true state of
12 MS. RESIDOVIC: Thank you, Mr.
13 Hadzihuseinovic, I have concluded my examination in
14 chief of this witness. Thank you.
15 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Thank you very much. I
16 think we'll rise and come back at twelve noon for the
17 cross-examination of this witness.
18 --- Recess taken at 11.35 a.m.
19 --- On resuming at 12.04 p.m.
20 (The witness entered court)
21 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Kindly inform him he's
22 still under oath.
23 THE REGISTRAR: I remind you, sir, that you
24 are still under oath.
25 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Now, the witness is on
1 for cross-examination. Mr. Olujic, you start with the
3 MR. OLUJIC: With your leave, Your Honour.
4 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: You may proceed, yes.
5 Cross-examined by Mr. Olujic
6 Q. Good day, Doctor.
7 A. Good day.
8 Q. We will have a short conversation and will
9 you please wait for my question to be interpreted into
10 one of the official languages of the court so that all
11 of us here present can follow what is being said.
12 Doctor, would you agree that after the fall
13 of Bradina, there were rebels and Chetniks still in the
15 A. Yes. The answer would be in the affirmative.
16 Q. Doctor, would you agree that there were other
17 rebels and armed robbers and people seeking revenge in
18 the woods?
19 A. I think I can say yes to that question too.
20 Q. Would you agree with me if I say that many of
21 the prisoners were actually Chetniks or members of the
22 JNA or members of the Serb Territorial Defence?
23 A. I think all the prisoners were citizens of
24 Konjic municipality, actually, the vast majority. I
25 wouldn't exclude that some were members of the JNA, but
1 the vast majority of the prisoners were citizens or
2 inhabitants of Konjic municipality and citizens of
4 Q. Would you agree with me if I say that, more
5 or less, all of those imprisoned were carrying arms?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Doctor, is it right to say that Konjic could
8 not be left without permission granted by the HVO?
9 A. I think that I have already answered that
10 question. No man of military age could leave the
11 territory of Konjic municipality without the permission
12 of the appropriate command, and those commands were the
13 TO command, the HVO command or the MUP, that is, the
14 police station. These were the three components of the
15 armed forces with separate chains of command. In any
16 event, men of military age had to have permission to be
17 able to leave the territory of the Konjic municipality.
18 Q. Would it be right to say, Doctor, that in the
19 spring and summer of 1992, due to various
20 circumstances, the people of Konjic municipality was
21 not sufficiently well-organised or sufficiently
23 A. Yes, that statement is correct.
24 Q. Doctor, could it be said that, you as a
25 prominent figure in the municipality of Konjic people,
1 obeyed as a doctor and as an intelligent man, that is,
2 as a citizen, but not also as any kind of military
4 A. Yes, that is correct.
5 Q. Would it also be right to say that at the
6 beginning, the defence as a whole was organised on that
7 basis, on the basis of mutual respect and trust?
8 A. No. The defence cannot be based on mutual
9 trust. Defence is based on precisely defined
10 principles stipulated by law, the regulations passed by
11 the state.
12 Q. Very well. Do you know Mr. Zdravko Mucic?
13 A. Yes, I know Mr. Zdravko Mucic personally. I
14 have known him for many years, as well as his family,
15 because Konjic is a small town and we all know one
17 Q. Tell me, as far as you know, did Mr. Mucic
18 have a military or police rank?
19 A. I do not know.
20 Q. Can it be said that, as far as you know, he
21 did not have any military or police rank?
22 A. I do not know.
23 MR. OLUJIC: Thank you, Doctor; thank you,
24 Your Honours. I have no further questions.
25 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Yes, Mr. Moran?
1 MR. MORAN: May it please the court?
2 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: You may proceed.
3 Cross-examined by Mr. Moran
4 Q. Good afternoon, Doctor.
5 A. Good afternoon.
6 Q. Doctor, I'm going to ask you a couple of
7 questions about three areas and then I think we will be
8 done. The first thing I want to talk to you about is
9 this: Somewhere in evidence in here, and I won't try
10 to find it, there's a videotape that shows you wearing
11 a military uniform, camouflage fatigues. Would you
12 agree with me that you did do that during the summer of
14 A. Yes, I would agree with you.
15 Q. You were a civilian the entire time of the
16 summer of 1992; is that right?
17 A. Absolutely right.
18 Q. The fact that you were wearing a military
19 uniform did not make you a soldier, did it?
20 A. Certainly not. That was only because it was
21 an honour to wear a uniform, and many civilians were
22 wearing uniforms even though they were not military
24 Q. Thank you very much, Doctor, on that. Let me
25 go on to another subject. This subject has less to do
1 with your role as a politician and a political leader
2 than as your role as a physician. For that, let me ask
3 you a few preliminary questions.
4 Doctor, as part of your training and
5 experience as a physician, did you receive training in
6 infectious diseases?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Have you kept current with infectious
9 diseases and how they are transmitted and whether there
10 would be epidemics, that kind of thing, given certain
12 A. Yes, particularly as we had an exam that we
13 had to sit for called "War Surgery," surgery in
15 MR. NIEMANN: Your Honours, if Mr. Moran is
16 endeavouring to make this witness an expert, I just
17 wish to indicate that we haven't been given any details
18 of his expertise on medical matters.
19 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: I don't think he's doing
21 MR. MORAN: Thank you, Your Honour. By the
22 way, this is also not my witness.
23 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: That doesn't matter.
24 MR. MORAN:
25 Q. Doctor, also as part of your training and
1 experience as a physician, are you familiar with the
2 practise of medicine in both the Konjic municipality
3 and throughout the former Socialist Federal Republic of
4 Yugoslavia as it applies to obtaining, what I would
5 call, informed consent by a patient. And by "informed
6 consent," what I mean is explaining to a patient the
7 results of and possible side effects of a medical
8 procedure before the patient consents to that
10 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: I'm not sure he
11 understands what you're saying.
12 MR. MORAN: I've probably made it too
14 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: I think you have, yes.
15 MR. MORAN: And if I make something too
16 complicated, stop me.
17 Q. Are you familiar with the practise,
18 throughout the former SFRY, of explaining to patients
19 medical procedures and the results of those procedures
20 and --
21 A. I will answer that question.
22 Q. Thank you, Doctor.
23 A. Medical deontology requires, from every
24 physician and especially a surgeon, before undertaking
25 any kind of measures relating to the patient to explain
1 the nature of that treatment, the possible consequences
2 and the consent of the patient for the execution of
3 that treatment.
4 Q. And a physician would be sure that the
5 patient understood all of that before going ahead with
6 the procedure?
7 A. Yes, certainly.
8 Q. Now, the last thing I'm going to ask you
9 about. Let me come back to that in a minute. Doctor,
10 yesterday after court, remember when I showed you this
11 model over here, that's in front of you, and if you
12 want to refer to the model, you're more than welcome to
13 go up and look at it. Based on that, I'm going to ask
14 you a hypothetical question.
15 Doctor, do you remember the tunnel I showed
16 you, we pulled the top off of it? Doctor, presume with
17 me for a minute that you have a large number of people
18 who are in that tunnel; and presume with me again for a
19 minute that they are taking care of their bodily
20 functions, if you would, at the bottom of that tunnel
21 and that there is a large amount of urine and faeces at
22 the bottom of that tunnel; and presume with me again
23 for a minute that some of that waste material got on
24 the food that they were eating. Do you follow me so
25 far, Doctor?
1 A. Yes, I do.
2 Q. In all reasonable medical probability,
3 Doctor, would there be an outbreak of infectious
5 A. Yes, if that were to happen.
6 Q. Remember the hangar number 6 I showed you of,
7 the model of the large warehouse where I showed you
8 where the people were kept? Presume with me again for
9 a minute that about 300 people are being held in there
10 in very bad weather conditions, very hot weather
11 conditions. Presume with me that they are given very
12 little food and very little water; and presume with me
13 that that water is contaminated with human bodily
14 waste. What is the chance in all reasonable medical
15 probability that there would be an outbreak of
16 infectious diseases?
17 A. If all that was as you just described, then
18 the chances are quite considerable for an epidemic to
19 break out of an infectious disease, if things were as
20 you have just described them, from the standpoint of
22 Q. By the way, as part of your duties as
23 president of the war presidency during the summer of
24 1992, if there had been an outbreak of infectious
25 diseases in the Celebici prison, would you have been
1 informed of that?
2 A. I can just tell you one thing, Your Honours,
3 that throughout the war, our medical institution, the
4 medical centre in Konjic and the hospital undertook
5 hygiene and epidemiological measures that applied to
6 all the inhabitants of Konjic in order to prevent the
7 outbreak of infectious diseases and epidemics
8 throughout our territory. I'm not aware of our hygiene
9 and epidemiology service having informed the war
10 presidency as the body in charge about the outbreak of
11 any epidemics or any large scale illnesses in the
12 Celebici compound. If that had happened, I would have
13 had to be informed, in view of the position I held, by
14 the appropriate medical institutions because those
15 institutions functioned throughout the war.
16 Q. Doctor --
17 A. We carried out vaccinations, inoculations of
18 children against infectious diseases, so we would have
19 done the same had any such epidemics broken out.
20 Q. Given those conditions that I laid out for
21 you in those two hypothetical situations, if disease
22 had broken out and there was very little medicine
23 available to care for those people, in all reasonable
24 medical probability, would there have been a large
25 number of deaths?
1 A. Yes, certainly, because most epidemics, if
2 they were to break out under those conditions, would be
3 of the group of diseases which break out due to the use
4 of contaminated water or food, intestinal
5 diseases, hepatitis and the like, which would certainly
6 have undesired consequences in terms of the lives of
7 those infected.
8 Q. Thank you very much on that, Doctor. Let me
9 change gears a little bit here and let me talk a little
10 bit with you about informed consent. Doctor, presume
11 with me for a minute that a woman for very good medical
12 reasons, proper medical reasons, in the Konjic
13 municipality in the mid-1980's, say 1985, were to
14 undergo a hysterectomy and this woman were of normal
15 child-bearing years, before she underwent that
16 operation, would the doctor who was going to perform
17 that operation make sure that she knew absolutely
18 positively that she could never have children?
19 A. Not only is that normal but it is the
20 obligation of the doctor to tell her that.
21 Q. So that patient would be fully aware that no
22 matter what else occurred in her life, after the
23 operation, she could never bear children?
24 MR. NIEMANN: I object to that, Your Honour.
25 How can he know what a patient would be fully aware
2 JUDGE JAN: If she went through that type of
3 operation, the woman would know.
4 MR. NIEMANN: It's the doctor knowing it that
5 I'm concerned with.
6 JUDGE JAN: It's common knowledge and I
7 thought --
8 MR. NIEMANN: I would have thought, Your
9 Honour, that men would have a problem understanding
11 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: In any event, this is
12 hypothetical, isn't it?
13 MR. MORAN: I'm asking him a hypothetical
14 question because he was not present.
15 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Not relating it to any
16 particular thing.
17 MR. MORAN: I'm not relating it to any person
18 or any place. I will do that later. I'm sure the
19 court is aware.
20 Q. Doctor, let me put it this way: Would a
21 physician in the Konjic municipality perform this type
22 of operation on a woman, if there were any doubt in his
23 mind, that the woman did not understand absolutely,
24 positively that no matter what occurred in the rest of
25 her life, she would not be able to bear children?
1 A. It is the duty of the doctor, according to
2 medical ethics, to indicate all the circumstances to
3 the patient and to get the patient's consent. He could
4 not carry out such an operation without the patient's
5 consent and unless he had explained all the possible
6 consequences of such a procedure.
7 Q. Now, Konjic is a rather small city and
8 there's relatively a few number of doctors there. Are
9 you familiar with the physicians who have practised
10 there since the mid-1980's. Personally, you know
11 them. They are your colleagues. Are you familiar with
12 their ethics?
13 A. Yes, I know all the doctors going back 40
15 Q. Now, the question I'm going to ask is this:
16 Do you know of any physician in the Konjic municipality
17 since the mid-1980's, early 1980's, who would perform
18 this kind of operation without being convinced in his
19 own heart that the woman knew the results of the
21 A. That is absolutely out of the question.
22 There is no such person. That would run counter to the
23 principles of medical ethics.
24 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: This is his opinion,
25 isn't it, not the fact that it couldn't happen.
1 MR. MORAN: That's true. That's absolutely
2 correct, Your Honour, because he was not there, but he
3 knows -- well, you heard what he said and you can judge
4 what it's worth.
5 Q. Let me go to another area, again involving
6 medicine. Where I come from, and I suspect where
7 everybody else comes from, there are certain kinds of
8 medicines which are available, they are called
9 over-the-counter medicines. I can go to a pharmacist
10 or, for that matter, a grocery store and get a bottle
11 of Aspirin or some cold medication. There are other
12 kinds of medicines which you have to have a physician's
13 prescription for, before you can get them. I'm sure
14 it's that way in the former Yugoslavia and in
15 Bosnia-Herzegovina to this good day; is that correct,
17 A. Yes. Ever since our profession exists, it's
18 been like that.
19 Q. Let me ask you about a specific kind of
20 medication, contraceptive pills. Does one have to have
21 a prescription to purchase contraceptive pills?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. In, say, April 1992 in, say, Konjic or maybe
24 Bradina, did one need a prescription to purchase those
25 pills at that time?
1 A. Yes, always.
2 Q. Were they available, by the way? Even if you
3 had a prescription, could you get them?
4 A. At that time, there was a general shortage of
5 medicines. As for the medicines that we received
6 through humanitarian aid, the consignments did not
7 include contraceptives. There is a small chance that
8 there were any contraceptives at all, in those days,
9 and if any, they could be obtained only with a medical
11 Q. Doctor, I have one more question and someone
12 has asked me to ask this to you. Isn't it correct,
13 sir, that during the period from May through November
14 or December of 1992 you are not aware whether Pavo
15 Mucic held any military or police function, are you?
16 A. Yes. I saw Pavo Mucic only twice in that
17 period, once when I was there for the first time, in
18 the Celebici compound, when I examined the patients
19 together with my colleagues, and the second time at the
20 swearing in ceremony. I do not know in what capacity
21 he was there.
22 Q. By the way, Doctor, that reminded me of
23 another question. When you were there examining the
24 prisoners in your professional capacity as a physician,
25 about when was that? It slipped my mind. I know you
1 said it and it just slipped my mind.
2 A. I think it was immediately at the beginning
3 after they were taken to the compound. I couldn't tell
4 you the exact date, but I think it was at the
6 Q. Now --
7 A. I think that the police and military
8 operation in Bradina took place from the 25th to the
9 27th of May, as far as I can remember, that is, the
10 second half of May, and Donje Selo was also 20th to the
11 22nd of May, so that was about then. Even though a
12 long time has gone by, I hope I can say that with
13 accuracy, the second half of May.
14 Q. As part of your training and experience as a
15 physician, I presume that you have dealt with trauma,
16 traffic accidents, blunt trauma, beatings, shootings,
18 JUDGE JAN: He's a urologist. He is not a
19 general surgeon or a general physician.
20 MR. MORAN: That's true, Your Honour. That's
21 why I'm asking whether he has any experience in that
22 area. If he doesn't, that's fine too, any training in
24 A. I must tell you something because my
25 knowledge in general surgery and urological surgery is
1 indeed broad. But when we're talking about the wartime
2 period, I must tell you that the experience I gained in
3 that period makes me competent for all areas of
4 surgery, gynaecological surgery, urological surgery.
5 There were only two surgeons so we did everything,
6 traumatology, orthopaedics. We even opened the skull
7 when necessary because there was no possibility to
8 transport patients, so we had to engage in some
9 procedures which were not within our particular
10 speciality. I wish we had all the necessary
12 Q. I presume that you could recognise people who
13 were the victims of beatings? If you examined someone
14 and that person had been beaten, you could notice
15 that? While you were examining those prisoners at
16 Konjic -- roughly how many did you examine, a rough
17 number? If you don't remember, you don't remember.
18 A. I couldn't remember exactly, but I think that
19 they were brought to us by the nurses and those were
20 the people who themselves expressed the wish to be
21 examined. We didn't examine them all, only those who
22 had reason to be examined, who applied for medical aid,
23 who had certain problems.
24 Q. Did they look like --
25 A. Other people were not examined.
1 Q. Did they look like they were beaten, look
2 like they were --
3 A. I didn't gain that impression. These were
4 people who were brought in from the zone of war
6 MR. MORAN: With the help of the usher, I
7 would like the Doctor to see Defendants' Exhibit, I
8 believe it's, D6/3.
9 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: What is that about?
10 MR. MORAN: Your Honour, that is -- well,
11 that's that. That's a baseball bat.
12 Q. Doctor, have you ever seen a thing like that
14 A. Only on television.
15 Q. Doctor, presume with me for a minute that
16 someone were hit by a large man, a strong man down the
17 left side of his body, this whole left side of his body
18 with one of those, something that looks like that.
19 Suppose that that beating lasted for about 30 minutes,
20 and by count there were about 200 strikes of that
21 baseball bat, hard strikes, against the left side of
22 that person's body. In all reasonable medical
23 probability, what kind of injuries would that person
25 A. He would have very, very serious injuries.
1 Q. Thank you very much, doctor.
2 MR. MORAN: Your Honour, I pass the witness.
3 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Any further
4 cross-examination? Yes.
5 Cross-examined by Ms. Boler:
6 Q. Good morning, Dr. Hadzihuseinovic. I have
7 about ten questions to ask you. And let me start by,
8 the Court is aware, but I will tell you that I am new
9 to the Defence team for Esad Landzo and this is my
10 first time to stand here and to ask anybody any
12 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: You may proceed with the
14 MS. BOLER: Okay. So that if I am
15 interrupted by anyone to tell me to slow down or to do
16 this or that, you will understand.
17 Q. Let me first ask you, in response to an
18 earlier question just now by Tom Moran, you stated that
19 there was a shortage of medication during the war,
21 A. Yes, that is correct.
22 Q. Specifically, was there a shortage of
23 medication available to treat people with breathing
24 problems, such as asthma or bronchitis?
25 A. There was a general shortage of all
1 medication, including those you mentioned.
2 Q. So it would be difficult or sometimes
3 impossible to provide sufficient medication for people
4 who suffer from breathing problems, such as asthma and
6 A. There weren't sufficient supplies of such
7 medicines for people to be able to have reserves.
8 Q. Thank you. We visited for a short time
9 yesterday, didn't we?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. And do you recall that I asked you a few
12 questions about the procedure for obtaining medical
13 records from the Konjic Hospital?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. And yesterday you told me that the hospital
16 keeps the original copy of each medical record,
18 A. Yes, indeed. Of all persons who came over to
19 be treated in the institution.
20 Q. So it's true that before the war, or during
21 the war, that a record was made and signed by the
22 treating doctor, correct?
23 A. Yes, that is what we call medical
24 documentation, it is part of the duties of a physician,
25 an integral part of his duties.
1 Q. You testified yesterday that during the war,
2 there were sometimes periods as long as twenty days
3 that you worked straight through without seeing your
5 A. Yes, there were times like that.
6 Q. Even in these most difficult times, was it
7 still the procedure of doctors at the Konjic Hospital
8 to make and sign medical records for the patients that
9 you treated?
10 A. Absolutely. We always followed the
11 principles of medical doctrine, which made it necessary
12 for us to keep records of everyone coming into the
13 hospital and of all the procedures we performed on
14 them. There could be some abbreviation of this, but
15 generally everyone who would come to the hospital would
16 be put on record.
17 Q. Were these records preserved during the war
18 or were some of them damaged or destroyed?
19 A. You must ask this question of those who run
20 that institution.
21 Q. I understand, thank you. Dr.
22 Hadzihuseinovic, if a representative for a person who
23 had been treated at the Konjic hospital comes to the
24 hospital to request a medical record, is it your
25 understanding, although this is not your specific area,
1 that the hospital will provide a copy of that medical
3 A. Absolutely.
4 Q. And the hospital will keep the original
5 medical record, correct?
6 A. Yes, and you would be given a copy.
7 Q. So if a representative for a person who had
8 been treated at the Konjic Hospital before the war or
9 during the war, went to the hospital recently to
10 request a copy of that person's medical record, and if
11 that person was told that the medical, that the
12 original medical record had already been provided to
13 someone else, would that be unusual?
14 A. It wouldn't have been unusual because, in
15 certain cases, the original document can be issued to
16 another person. For example, to the court, but this --
17 a receipt had to be signed whereby the document had to
18 be returned within a given period of time. But there
19 must be a document to that effect.
20 Q. So it's your understanding that although the
21 general practice was not to provide the original record
22 to someone who requested a record, although that's
23 not --
24 A. That was not general practice.
25 Q. But your understanding is that sometimes
1 those originals had been provided to this court,
3 A. Yes, that possibility did exist, but only on
4 the basis of a receipt, where it is strictly and
5 clearly stated that the document had to be returned.
6 Q. Okay. So, if this is a case, that the
7 original record is no longer at the Konjic Hospital,
8 then it is your understanding that the proper procedure
9 would be something in the hospital's records saying, we
10 provided the original to a representative from the
11 court, or whomever that might be, but that is so noted
12 in the record, correct?
13 A. If they did so, then they should have -- if
14 they, if they gave the original, then this must have
15 been written down somewhere or documented in some
17 Q. Is it also your understanding that the
18 hospital would keep a copy of such record for which
19 they had given the original to a representative of the
21 A. No, that wasn't the practice. That wasn't
23 Q. Were you, yourself, asked recently by a
24 representative of the Defence team for Esad Landzo to
25 help locate some medical records?
1 A. I don't remember someone having requested
2 this of me personally, perhaps requests have been made
3 in address to the institution where I am employed.
4 Because I am not the manager, the director of the
5 hospital, so it is not really possible to make such
6 requests on me. There is the hospital administration
7 in charge of that. There is the senior nurse. So,
8 this can be only requested from the hospital's
9 administration. And, at this particular moment, I have
10 no function in the management of the hospital.
11 Q. I understand your response to my question,
12 but you were telling me that you do not remember
13 whether or not a representative from Esad Landzo's
14 Defence team, as you say Konjic is a small town, you
15 all have known each other for years, but it is your
16 testimony that you do not remember or recall someone
17 specifically asking you for help?
18 A. No, you have just reminded me, yes, it may
19 have happened, perhaps, about twenty days ago, or a
20 month ago, I think a lawyer came, his name was Asim
21 Suta, I believe. I think that he came and seemed to be
22 interested in some documents. Now you have just
23 reminded me. I think Asim Suta came to my surgery
24 while I was on duty. And as far as I could help him, I
25 directed him to the hospital administration. It's a
1 good thing that you reminded me because I had forgotten
2 all about it.
3 Q. But you were not able to help him obtain
4 these records, correct?
5 A. No, I just advised him and gave him some
6 advice to whom to address for such documents, to whom
7 in the institution to address because I was not
8 competent on -- in the matter, even I was not competent
9 for issuing such records because there's the director,
10 the deputy director, the senior nurse, the whole
11 administration deals with such matters, but I
12 instructed him what to do and whom to address.
13 Q. Thank you. And do you recall specifically
14 that these -- this request for records was for the
15 medical records of Mirko Babic?
16 A. Yes, I think that he mentioned that.
17 Q. And to the best of your knowledge, these
18 records -- the hospital was not able to provide these
19 records to Mr. Asim Suta, correct?
20 JUDGE JAN: He says he doesn't know. He
21 personally directed him to the proper authority and the
22 procedure for obtaining a copy, but he doesn't know.
23 MS. BOLER: That was my last question, Your
24 Honours. Thank you.
25 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Thank you very much.
1 The cross-examination from the prosecution.
2 Cross-examined by Mr. Niemann.
3 Q. Dr. Hadzihuseinovic, I want to ask you some
4 questions about that period of time leading up to the
5 outbreak of the conflict in the Municipality of Konjic,
6 if I may start there. It's true, is it not that
7 there's -- there was a direct link or connection
8 between the SDS party and the JNA and this was
9 evidenced back as early as 1991?
10 A. What is your specific question?
11 Q. Well, that is my question.
12 A. Were there relations between the SDS and the
14 Q. Yes.
15 A. Yes, such relations did exist.
16 Q. They were close relations, were they not?
17 A. That's what you said, I don't know how strong
18 these relations actually were.
19 Q. I see. Why do you say that? Why do you say
20 that there was relations between the SDS and the JNA?
21 A. There was a plan on the level of Yugoslavia
22 as a whole, former Yugoslavia as a whole. And such
23 relations were, in fact, promoted via the political
24 leadership of the Socialist Federal Republic of
25 Yugoslavia, the military -- its military force, the JNA
1 and the SDS of Bosnia-Herzegovina. These are very well
2 known facts known to everyone. This can be confirmed
3 by a number of documents.
4 Q. Yes. I am just interested in your opinion
5 about these matters. I think you would say, wouldn't
6 you, that one of the factors that inclines you to the
7 view that there was a connection or direct connection
8 between the SDS and the JNA resolved about the
9 distribution of weapons, in the Municipality of Konjic,
10 to members of the Serb community?
11 A. I am familiar with those links between the
12 Serb Democratic Party of Konjic and the offices of
13 the JNA in our municipality. These relations were
15 Q. And, in fact, the distribution of weapons to
16 the Serbs was to be distinguished from distribution to
17 anyone else, in the sense that, it was only to the
18 Serb people and the SDS, that the JNA issued these
19 weapons in 1991? And I am talking about the
20 Municipality of Konjic.
21 A. I think this was a question of secret army.
22 Q. It's something that you came to know?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Yes, unlike the members of the Muslim
25 community, the members of the Serb community were
1 much better prepared for conflict, were they not, in
2 the Municipality of Konjic in 1991/92?
3 A. The legal authorities were not really
4 preparing for a conflict. We were actually functioning
5 under the normal conditions. We were just carrying out
6 out the orders of the competent state authorities and
7 act in accordance with them. We had institutions in
8 our system and we functioned within that framework.
9 There was no need to act beyond the frameworks of that
11 Q. Of course not. But the contrast I am putting
12 to you and asking you to agree with, is that unlike the
13 Muslim community, the Serb community through the
14 auspices of the JNA and SDS, were preparing themselves
15 for a military conflict, especially in latter 1991,
16 early '92?
17 MS. RESIDOVIC: I object Your Honour, the
18 witness spoke about the legal organs and populations,
19 he was not referring to the Muslims and the Prosecutor
20 is asking questions about that segment of the
22 JUDGE JAN: The experts have spoken.
23 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Answer the question as
24 best as he can.
25 THE WITNESS: The Serb people had the same
1 obligations as the Croatian and the Bosnian people.
2 They had the same duties and obligations as all the
3 rest of the populations in all terms, but perhaps they
4 did not carry out those obligations.
5 JUDGE JAN: The learned counsel is asking
6 about the position on the ground. The Serbs were
7 better prepared than the Muslim community because of
8 the help provided by the Serbs.
9 THE WITNESS: I can only speak about the
10 facts, about those facts which I am familiar with. I,
11 in fact, was in charge of a legal body and I was not,
12 in fact, competent to deal with other matters.
13 MR. NIEMANN:
14 Q. I am not raising anything controversial at
15 all, I am relying upon a statement that you gave to the
16 office of the Prosecutor, which I am more than happy to
17 show you if you want to, that you gave on the 31st of
18 March, '96. I am not trying to be confrontational, I
19 am asking to you to agree with these are the things you
20 said or not?
21 A. I made two statements to the office of the
22 prosecution; one in '96 and one in '97.
23 Q. And that's the one in 1996, when you speak of
24 the direct link between the SDS and the JNA, that's
25 merely what I am referring to. The point of the matter
1 is though, doctor, isn't it, that whilst the Serb
2 community had prepared itself for a military conflict,
3 that could not be said of the, in particular, the
4 Muslim community at that time in early '92, 1992?
5 A. Your interpretation of these communities
6 really does not -- is not right. They were not
7 separate communities, they were citizens of the
8 Municipality of Konjic and the citizens of
10 Q. Well, are you denying that there was a
11 differentiation based on political perspective and
12 views? I mean surely you're not suggesting that you
13 didn't have the SDS party and the SDA party and the HDZ
14 party, surely you're not suggesting that?
15 A. No, you said that.
16 Q. Do you deny that?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. You deny --
19 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Deny what?
20 THE WITNESS: Those were political
21 organisation, which were taking part in the elections
22 and they took part in the work of the municipal
23 assembly of Konjic, depending on how they fared at the
24 elections. These are well known facts.
25 MR. NIEMANN:
1 Q. Surely you don't deny for one second that
2 these political institutions; namely, the SDS, the SDA
3 and HDZ, represented different ethnic or national
4 groups; namely, the Muslims, the Croats and the Serbs,
5 come on, you're not suggesting that? Surely that's not
6 the case?
7 A. That's in your terms. They represented
8 different political interests, that is a fact.
9 Q. And the political interests that they
10 represented was based on national or ethnic groups, was
11 it not?
12 A. No, it was possible that members of the
13 parties belonged to different nationalities in the
14 statute of any of those parties. He did not say that
15 members of other ethnic groups or nationalities could
16 not belong to that party.
17 Q. That wasn't my question.
18 JUDGE JAN: You have enough evidence of the
19 expert on that, why are you pursuing this? He has a
20 different perspective because Bosnia is a multi-ethnic
21 society and probably he's talking about in that...
22 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Actually the witness is
23 talking about his own perception of the society.
24 JUDGE JAN: Yes.
25 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: And I think you could
1 allow him to hold those views.
2 MR. NIEMANN:
3 Q. The municipal assembly of the municipality,
4 when conflict ultimately came, had to take urgent and
5 rapid steps to prepare itself for the conflict, did it
7 A. The war presidency of Konjic, and I was
8 president at the time, followed, kept track of the
9 activities of all the bodies of Bosnia-Herzegovina.
10 And in keeping with the instructions of the legitimate
11 institutions of the system, acted in line with them.
12 In my statement of yesterday, I said that from April
13 17th, the representatives of the SDS, the Serb
14 Democratic Party and the Municipality of Konjic,
15 abandoned, departed from all the legally elected
16 bodies. They did not accept the mobilisation on behalf
17 of the legal structures of the authorities. And to my
18 mind from then on, they were rebels. That is to say,
19 people who stood against their own state.
20 Q. Yes, and of course that's your perspective
21 and one you're entitled to hold. But the issue is that
22 the municipality, and ultimately and subsequently, the
23 war presidency, had to prepare itself rapidly and
24 urgently for war? A yes or no answer will suffice.
25 A. That is not my view. These were activities
1 which were envisaged by the constitution and the law.
2 And they were designed for the war presidency and the
3 war presidency undertook all steps and measures
4 according to its constitutional competencies.
5 Therefore, all the things envisioned by the
6 constitution for the body I belonged to and envisioned
7 by the decisions of the presidency of the State of
8 Bosnia-Herzegovina, the government of
9 Bosnia-Herzegovina within the system of defence, that
10 is what we carried out. These were legal and
11 legitimate actions and measures.
12 Q. Did I suggest to you in my question that you
13 did anything that was illegal or not in accordance with
14 the Constitution? My question relates to the urgency
15 and unexpected nature of the preparations that had to
16 take place. Now surely you're not disputing this?
17 A. No, I didn't say that, but I understand your
18 position. But please don't make me tell you what you
19 want me to tell you. I am a witness under oath and I
20 am going to speak about the facts and about the things
21 I know.
22 Q. I'd be grateful if you just answer my
23 questions and not concern yourself with what you think
24 that I am trying to get you to say. If my questions
25 are unclear, please ask me and I'll clarify them.
1 Now --
2 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: I think we'll stop here
3 and assemble at 2.30 for you to continue your
5 --- Luncheon recess taken at 1.00 p.m.
1 --- Upon commencing at 2.35 p.m.
2 (The witness entered court)
3 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Kindly remind the
4 witness he's still under oath.
5 THE REGISTRAR: I remind you, sir, that you
6 are still under oath.
7 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Mr. Niemann, you may
9 MR. NIEMANN:
10 Q. Doctor, earlier this morning, we were talking
11 about links between the JNA, the SDS and the Serb
12 people in the municipality of Konjic. I think you
13 would cite as another example of these links between
14 the JNA and the SDS, the fact that, at least on one
15 occasion, the official vehicle of the municipality was
16 used to take up SDS members and a member of the JNA to
17 Pale. Do you remember that incident?
18 A. Just make a correction. Actually, these were
19 members of the Serb Democratic Party and not of the
20 Serb people because there were quite a number of
21 Serbs who were loyal citizens and who respected the
22 legal institutions. Let me give you an example of a
23 man who put to me questions at the assembly session --
24 JUDGE JAN: Was the transport of your
25 municipality used to take SDS people to Palez? This is
1 the question.
2 A. Yes, I remember that event. It is a vehicle
3 of the municipal assembly of Konjic and an employee of
4 the municipality called Aleksandar Coric, who was a
5 member of the executive in the municipality, a member
6 of the government, without anybody's knowledge,
7 illegally allowed this vehicle to be used by
8 representatives of the Serb Democratic Party who,
9 using that vehicle, went to Palez and on that occasion
10 had a traffic accident when a Security Major Ranko
11 Kuljanin was injured.
12 JUDGE JAN: Are you interested in all these
14 MR. NIEMANN: I'm not interested in these
15 details. "Yes" would have been quite sufficient.
16 Q. Doctor, in the early part of 1992, was there
17 an order given, that was issued from Sarajevo, relating
18 to the handing over of ammunition and military
19 factories to the JNA?
20 A. Could you explain the question, who sent the
22 Q. Yes. Well, I will ask you that. An order
23 came from Sarajevo, did it not, an order to reconcile
24 the growing tension that the JNA should be given the
25 military facilities that produced ammunition in the
1 Konjic municipality. That happened, didn't it?
2 A. The Yugoslav People's Army or, rather, the
3 Federal Secretariat for National Defence which
4 controlled all the ammunition factories in the former
5 Yugoslavia sought to have the ammunition and the
6 material from those factories transferred to areas
7 under the control of the JNA. In that sense,
8 negotiations were conducted with the competent bodies
9 of the Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina in Sarajevo.
10 Consequent to that, a demand came from Sarajevo that
11 ammunition and the equipment for the manufacture of
12 ammunition, should be handed over to the Yugoslav
13 People's Army.
14 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: See how long it took you
15 to answer "yes," whether an order came from Sarajevo
16 that the ammunition and this factory should be handed
17 over to the JNA. It took you so long.
18 A. We didn't receive orders in the sense of
19 orders. There was regular communication between the
20 various legal bodies of power.
21 MR. NIEMANN:
22 Q. But this order from the republican government
23 in Sarajevo was ignored, wasn't it, by the community of
24 Konjic or it wasn't followed?
25 A. As of the 6th of April, the Republic of
1 Bosnia and Herzegovina was internationally recognised
2 and, therefore, all factories and all property was the
3 property of the state of Bosnia-Herzegovina. The legal
4 authorities in Konjic felt that to surrender those
5 material and technical means would weaken the defence
6 of Konjic.
7 JUDGE JAN: So it did not obey the order.
8 A. And it did not act according to that
9 recommendation, according to that recommendation.
10 MR. NIEMANN:
11 Q. As a consequence of that, you would agree
12 with me, would you not, that the municipality of Konjic
13 assumed responsibility for this military ammunition and
15 JUDGE JAN: On behalf of the republic. Make
16 the question complete on behalf of the republic because
17 his earlier answer said a new state had come into
19 MR. NIEMANN: A new government hadn't come
20 into existence.
21 JUDGE JAN: A new state had come into
23 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: By the time the
24 instruction had come, a new government had come into
1 MR. NIEMANN:
2 Q. Well, the municipality of Konjic assumed
3 responsibility, whether it be on behalf of the
4 republican government or on behalf of the JNA. It
5 assumed responsibility, didn't it?
6 A. It was our duty to place all such facilities
7 under the control of the legal authorities. That was
8 our obligation and duty and that is what we did.
9 Q. When you say "our," who do you mean by our
11 A. The duty of the legal organs of authority.
12 Q. What was that in relation to this decision?
13 Was the legal organ of authority in relation to this
15 A. What period are you referring to?
16 Q. I'm specifically talking about the refusal to
17 hand over the ammunition and equipment to the JNA which
18 you received an order to do, or a direction to do, or a
20 A. That factory and that ammunition was no
21 longer the property of the JNA, because at that moment
22 the JNA, for us, was a foreign army and it was
23 illegally on our territory after international
24 recognition, and there was no reason why we should
25 surrender that to them.
1 Q. You would be surprised, Doctor, that I would
2 agree with you on that. Nevertheless, who it was when
3 you speak of "us" and "our" responsibility?
4 A. The legal organs of authority in the
5 municipality of Konjic.
6 Q. Would you tell me, please, what they are?
7 A. Let me tell you very clearly. Until the 17th
8 of April, 1992, it was the municipal assembly of
9 Konjic, the council for national defence of the
10 municipality and the crisis staff of the municipality.
11 After the 17th of April, 1992, it became the war
12 presidency of the municipality as a substitute for the
13 municipal assembly. Those were the legal organs.
14 Q. But this happened well before -- well, it
15 happened before the 17th of April, so it was the
16 municipality, wasn't it?
17 JUDGE JAN: The municipal assembly.
18 MR. NIEMANN:
19 Q. The municipal assembly?
20 A. Even before the 17th of April, we had legal
21 organs. As of the 6th of April, in view of the fact
22 that the war had started, according to the municipal
23 statute and according to the constitution, a crisis
24 staff was formed and a council for national defence
25 which functioned until the 17th of April, 1992. After
1 the last assembly meeting, the war presidency of the
2 municipality started to operate.
3 Q. Doctor, when the military activities started
4 in and around the Konjic municipality, the military
5 activity especially perpetrated by the
6 Serb paramilitary or the JNA was designed to cut Konjic
7 off from Sarajevo, in particular, wasn't it?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. And to isolate Konjic?
10 A. In the final analysis to occupy it.
11 Q. At that time, Sarajevo was itself preoccupied
12 with the conflict that it had on its hands; you would
13 agree with that?
14 A. Yes, yes.
15 Q. You would agree with me, wouldn't you, that
16 when confronted with this military conflict that ensued
17 in the early part of 1992, April of 1992, there was
18 much to be done to adjust the municipal structures and
19 bodies in order to prepare itself for the anticipated
20 and ensuing conflict; would you agree with that?
21 A. The legal bodies of the municipality of
22 Konjic, even under conditions of peace, had plans which
23 envisaged how those legal bodies would behave in
24 emergencies such as a situation of imminent threat of
25 war or war. That is what the legal authorities did in
1 accordance with their competencies.
2 Q. Did those plans envisage and deal as their
3 topic with a situation, whereby the JNA would turn on
4 its own people?
5 A. They assumed any kind of emergency.
6 Q. At the outset of the conflict, I take it that
7 you would consider the HVO to be part of the armed
8 forces of Bosnia-Herzegovina?
9 A. Is that a question?
10 Q. Yes, yes.
11 A. I wouldn't quite consider it because, the HVO
12 as a structure was not envisaged by positive, legal
13 regulations of Bosnia-Herzegovina in times of peace.
14 But, in view of the fact that this was a special form
15 of organisation, of a part of the people of Konjic
16 municipality, and in view of the fact that they had the
17 same goals, in the sense of defending the municipality
18 of Konjic, the legal bodies of the Republic of
19 Bosnia-Herzegovina recognised them as an integral part
20 of the armed forces.
21 Q. And when were they so recognised?
22 A. I don't know.
23 Q. Well, if I put it to you that it wasn't until
24 sometime later that the HVO was accepted as a force
25 that could work with the army of Bosnia-Herzegovina,
1 you wouldn't disagree with that, would you? Perhaps
2 I'll withdraw that.
3 Initially, the HVO was accepted as part of
4 the defence forces, at least so far as the Konjic
5 municipality was concerned, because they supported your
6 aims in the conflict, didn't they? You had the same
8 JUDGE JAN: This is what he has already said,
9 they were joining us in defending Konjic so they were
10 treated as legal organs.
11 MR. NIEMANN: Thank you, Your Honour.
12 Q. So it didn't matter about their foundation,
13 legal foundation or whether they were a valid, legal
14 force within the constitution of Bosnia-Herzegovina or
15 within the municipality of Konjic, did it? It was
16 because they supported your military aims.
17 A. No, it was very important. It did matter
18 because all their activities were in accordance with
19 the activities of the legal institutions. And the
20 armed forces of Konjic municipality, as is well-known
21 and as I already said yesterday, already on May the
22 12th set up a joint command of the armed forces of
23 Konjic municipality comprising the TO, the HVO and the
24 ministry of the interior.
25 Q. So if the HVO was, in fact, technically and a
1 legal force, in the sense that it didn't have the force
2 of law or support of law in either the constitution or
3 the laws of Bosnia-Herzegovina, then you would have had
4 nothing to do with it, notwithstanding the fact that it
5 would have participated in the war with you; is that
6 your position?
7 A. I've already said and I'm repeating that
8 because of our common aims and because members of the
9 HVO were citizens of Bosnia-Herzegovina, therefore,
10 there was no reason not to establish such a
11 relationship. They were not an illegal formation.
12 Q. But it had nothing to do with the legality,
13 did it; isn't that true?
14 A. They were not envisaged in the plans and
15 documents. They did not exist actually, as a form
16 before the war, but they emerged as a self-organised
17 military force of the Croatian people and they joined
18 in the struggle against the aggression, against the
19 internationally recognised Republic of
20 Bosnia-Herzegovina, and there is nothing unclear about
22 Q. Would you have agreed with this force had it
23 attacked you? If the HVO would have attacked you,
24 would you have agreed that it was a legal entity within
1 JUDGE JAN: Is that really relevant? You
2 see, in a situation like that, in a situation where the
3 municipal defence is situated, they would even go to
4 the Devil to seek his help. They would not bother
5 about the legal position. That was the force available
6 to them to help them, so they joined them. They
7 treated them as a legal force.
8 MR. NIEMANN: The witness agrees absolutely,
9 and that's exactly the point I was trying to get to,
10 Your Honour. I thank you for your assistance.
11 A. Our lives were in jeopardy. We were
12 defending our biological existence.
13 Q. Absolutely. And you would have done anything
14 to defend yourselves, wouldn't you?
15 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: I suppose that has been
16 taken for granted all along.
17 MR. NIEMANN: Perhaps it shouldn't have been,
18 Your Honours, with respect, because the whole argument
19 of this defence is --
20 A. Not quite everything, not quite anything.
21 MR. NIEMANN:
22 Q. Sir, the primary responsibility was not to
23 sort out the fine points of law, when it comes to
24 defending the municipality of Konjic, was it? It was
25 to defend the municipality of Konjic.
1 MR. MORAN: Your Honour, I'm going to object
2 to this whole line of questioning. It's, I think,
3 pretty irrelevant. I don't see how any of this has
4 anything to do with what happened in Celebici or what
5 didn't happen in Celebici.
6 MS. RESIDOVIC: Your Honour, I join in the
7 objection because the witness already said that it was
8 a constitutional obligation of every citizen to defend
9 the country, and the HVO members were also citizens of
11 MR. NIEMANN: I assure Your Honours that the
12 relevance of this line of cross-examination will become
13 crystal clear in due course, and I can assure you, that
14 in no way, is it irrelevant.
15 Q. Doctor, because of the unusual situation of
16 not having the JNA there and having the Territorial
17 Defence and the HVO, it became necessary to set up a
18 joint command, didn't it?
19 A. Yes, in order to coordinate our joint
21 Q. And, in part, that was as a consequence of
22 the fact that the HVO's command was separate from that
23 of the TO?
24 A. I have already said, I said yesterday and I
25 think today too that these three parts of the armed
1 forces, the three elements comprising the armed forces
2 of the Konjic Municipality, had a different chains of
3 command: members of the MUP were accountable to the
4 ministry of the interior; members of the TO were under
5 the subordination of the TO staff and HVO members were
6 subordinated to their command.
7 Q. Now the war presidency were concerned, were
8 they not, to ensure that maximum efficiency was
9 achieved by the joint efforts of both the TO and the
11 A. The municipal presidency had no jurisdiction
12 in terms of the control and command over the armed
13 forces. I said that already yesterday. But as a body,
14 it is -- had a series of responsibilities within the
15 system of defence, but never within the system of
16 control and command.
17 Q. I didn't ask you anything about command and
18 control and at all, doctor. My question was, that the
19 war presidency was concerned to ensure that you -- you
20 achieved the maximum efficiency out of both of these
21 forces? It's a yes/no answer --
22 A. Our aim was to ensure the maximum efficiency
23 of defence.
24 Q. Now, that, the achievement of that efficiency
25 was a little difficult at times because of differences
1 that developed between the HVO and the TO?
2 A. When the joint command of the armed forces of
3 the Municipality of Konjic was formed, I think there
4 were no major differences because the commander of the
5 joint command came from the TO and the chief of staff
6 of the command came from the HVO. So there were no
7 significant differences at the beginning. They emerged
9 Q. And that may so and I don't quarrel with you
10 about that. But it's true, is it not, that you saw the
11 need to consolidate how these military forces were to
12 operate? And when I say "you", I am talking of the war
14 A. Representatives of the armed forces insisted
15 on this and it was their job to do that. And the
16 presidency could only receive reports about those
17 activities by representatives of the armed forces.
18 Q. Well, are you suggesting that it wasn't a
19 concern or a responsibility of the war presidency, this
20 issue of bringing together the two forces?
21 A. It was not the concrete job of the war
22 presidency, but the war presidency was briefed on all
23 the activities that they engaged in, but only in the
24 sense of briefings, information.
25 Q. Now, the decision was made to appoint Zejnil
1 Delalic as a coordinator, that's right, wasn't it, by
2 the war presidency?
3 A. On the 18th of May, yes.
4 Q. And that was a decision, I think, that was
5 made by the war presidency?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. And by you, the actual document of
8 appointment was made by you?
9 A. The actual document, I didn't make it, but
10 the appropriate services made it. We already noted
11 that yesterday.
12 Q. So you signed it, though?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Now, his function was to coordinate between
15 the war presidency and between the HVO and the TO,
16 wasn't it?
17 A. And the ministry of the interior. The three
18 segments of the armed forces.
19 Q. Thank you, yes. And the object of that
20 exercise was to achieve maximum efficiency, was it not,
21 in the military forces that you had available to you at
22 the time, for the defence of the Municipality of
24 A. The aim was to achieve maximum efficiency in
25 the relationship between the war presidency and the
1 armed forces.
2 Q. Yes. I'll accept that. But don't you agree
3 with me that by achieving maximum efficiency in the
4 relationship, one would hope there would flow from
5 that, maximum efficiency of effort?
6 A. I wouldn't agree entirely, perhaps we have
7 different views of this matter.
8 Q. Perhaps we'll disagree on that. Now, doctor,
9 the achievement of efficiency between, or communication
10 between the three groups, the TO, the HVO and the MUP,
11 you would agree, wouldn't you, that the ultimate
12 objective of that was your defence, the defence of your
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Thank you. And you would agree with me,
16 wouldn't you, that the defence of the municipality is
17 primarily a military matter?
18 A. The war presidency as a civilian body had a
19 whole series of responsibilities within the system of
20 defence, so I wouldn't agree with you entirely, even
21 though it was not a military body, it still had a
22 series of responsibilities within the sphere of defence
23 as stipulated by the constitution and the law. But the
24 actual combat activities, the control and command, was
25 carried out by the responsible military bodies. That
1 part of their activities depended, in some areas, on
2 the activities of the economic staff and other bodies
3 which were purely civilian. And, therefore, also on
4 the activities of the war presidency and its
5 coordinator who were civilian persons.
6 Q. But the reality is, isn't it, doctor, that
7 there was a sharing of responsibility in relation to
8 the military effort of defence of the municipality?
9 Now surely that's not an extraordinary proposition?
10 A. Everybody was discharging his
11 responsibilities in accordance with his jurisdictions.
12 Q. Well, we can only assume that. You're not
13 saying that you know that as a fact, when you use the
14 word "everybody", are you?
15 A. All the persons who held certain positions
16 had certain competencies and they acted accordingly at
17 a given moment.
18 Q. And at times some people who didn't have
19 those competencies did other things which didn't fall
20 within them, but if it suited the defence of the
21 municipality, that wouldn't have been extraordinary or
22 unacceptable, would it?
23 JUDGE JAN: Give him some definite instance,
24 your question is too general for him to answer. Give
25 him some instance. The way you put the question is too
1 general for him to answer.
2 MR. NIEMANN:
3 Q. If the City of Konjic, and this is a
4 hypothetical example, if the City of Konjic was under
5 attack and action needed to be taken to put out a fire,
6 if people from a nearby building came out and attempted
7 to put out the fire rather than the fire brigade, that
8 wouldn't be regarded as extraordinary or exceptional,
9 would it?
10 MS. RESIDOVIC: I object to these
11 hypothetical questions to the witness.
12 MR. NIEMANN: We had a series of them earlier
13 Your Honour, and there seemed to be no objection to
15 JUDGE JAN: That wouldn't be outside
16 neighbours coming in and putting out a fire, would not
17 be something not expected of the neighbours, so that
18 would hardly be a good example to put to the witness.
19 MR. NIEMANN: I apologise for my example,
20 Your Honour, it's the best I could think of at the
22 Q. If, for example, members of the war
23 presidency, or officials appointed by the war
24 presidency, became involved in the exchange of
25 prisoners in Celebici, we're dealing with prisoners in
1 Celebici; that wouldn't necessarily be an extraordinary
2 circumstance in the time, would it?
3 A. I wouldn't agree with you.
4 Q. Thank you. Now, doctor, when you first
5 spoke -- well, I think it's the first time you spoke to
6 the officer of the Prosecutor, Mr. D'Hooge, in the 31st
7 of April, 1996. On that occasion, you say you didn't
8 know who appointed Zejnil Delalic as coordinator, why
9 did you say that at that time?
10 A. I will be very clear, my first interview in
11 1996 was ad hoc and a long time had elapsed since the
12 events in question and if there is any collision or
13 imprecision, it could be attributed to the long time
14 that had passed since those events. But I made another
15 statement to your investigator and he reminded me of
16 those things in that second interview, so that I
17 explained all those facts if anything was unclear to
18 the investigator of this honourable Tribunal. On the
19 other hand, if anyone casts any doubt as to what I am
20 saying today, after all I am under oath, there are
21 additional documents that I have submitted to this
22 Tribunal, such as the videotape of the assembly meeting
23 and me speaking at that meeting and all the conclusions
24 reached. And they may be placed at the court's
25 disposal. So that I think that in my second interview,
1 I explained all the facts that you are referring to.
2 Q. The only reason I ask the question that it's
3 somewhat extraordinary, that someone that you yourself
4 appointed is not something that you would know about
5 when questioned.
6 A. It is not unusual. You see, I have gone
7 through a very difficult period. You must understand
8 that a long time has gone by and I spoke to the
9 investigator ad hoc. I was eager to assist this
10 honourable Tribunal as I am now. And I think that I
11 clarified in my second statement all the facts that you
12 are now referring to.
13 Q. Yes, well, at the same time, as you said you
14 didn't know who appointed him you said, and I'll quote
15 directly: "The function of coordinator must be a
16 military function?"
17 A. I am not a soldier, you see, I am a doctor by
18 profession. Therefore, I may have been imprecise,
19 which could have been attributable either to a
20 misunderstanding of the question or possibly an error
21 in the translation. I think that in many sentences,
22 there was imprecision in the translation. But I think
23 there's no doubt that I clarified all those points in
24 my second statement, given to the same gentleman that
25 is to this Tribunal. Allow me, after all I refreshed
1 my memory, I haven't been prepared.
2 Q. Did you check that? Did you go away and
3 check whether or not, in fact, it was merely a
4 translation error? Because you audio recorded the
5 interview yourself, didn't you, on your own personal
7 A. No, I didn't consider it to be important to
8 check. I had the oral promise of the investigator that
9 he would send me copies. I didn't receive them, but I
10 think that isn't important because I explained
11 everything in my second testimony and here I am now.
12 In any case, I think this testimony today is the most
13 important one because I am testifying under oath.
14 Those statements at the time were not of such a nature.
15 Q. Now, the second interview that you gave to
16 the Prosecutor's officer, again, Mr. D'Hooge and on
17 this occasion, Mr. McLeod, were you corrected the
18 question of the appointment of Zejnil Delalic as
19 coordinator, and corrected your previous statement.
20 That was given on the 4th of February, 1997 and after
21 you had spoken to Ms. Residovic, isn't it?
22 A. Yes, I spoke briefly. I told the
23 investigator when he asked me whether I had
24 communicated with any one.
25 Q. And you told him that you had spoken to Ms.
2 A. Yes, I had a short interview, oral interview.
3 Q. And it was then that you emphasised the fact
4 that the function of the coordinator was a civilian one
5 and not a military one?
6 A. Yes, absolutely so.
7 Q. Now why was Zejnil Delalic appointed as the
8 coordinator? Why did you appoint him as coordinator?
9 You and the war presidency?
10 THE WITNESS: I think that I explained that
12 Q. It was also Zejnil Delalic was also
13 authorised to, in a logistics capacity, wasn't he?
14 A. Yes, he discharged certain duties in
15 procuring supplies, material, technical supplies, for
16 the needs of the defence.
17 Q. And that included heavy military supplies,
18 and when I use the word "heavy", I mean in terms of
19 ammunitions and methods by which you could wage war,
20 not only soft materials, such as clothes and food?
21 JUDGE JAN: --
22 MR. NIEMANN: I didn't hear Your Honour.
23 JUDGE JAN: He also provided certain
25 MR. NIEMANN: And communications, do you
2 A. Yes, these were communications, equipment,
3 uniform, but I would disagree with you and I don't know
4 what the term heavy military supplies implies, but as
5 far as ammunition is concerned, there was no need for
6 it at the time because the factory of ammunitions in
7 Konjic was put under the control of the legal
8 authorities of Konjic and after a certain time, we also
9 normally activated the production there for the needs
10 of the state of Bosnia-Herzegovina.
11 MR. NIEMANN: I am not very expert in weapons
12 and matters of that nature --
13 A. Neither am I.
14 Q. So if he purchased military equipment -- I'll
15 have to come back to that. Do you know whether or not
16 he purchased military equipment such as rocket
17 launchers and guns and things of that nature, when he
18 was in Croatia or elsewhere?
19 A. Mr. Delalic was authorised by a special
20 authorisation, which I mentioned before, he was
21 appointed coordinator. I explained all of this
22 yesterday. And his trip to Zagreb, aimed at providing,
23 procuring those military supplies. I think I was very
24 clear yesterday and this was the special authorisation
25 which I reviewed yesterday. But all those activities
1 stemmed from the conclusions of the war presidency,
2 regarding supplies and distribution of supplies and
3 equipment. And they did not relate to anything else.
4 Q. Now, perhaps you might look at the document,
5 which is prosecution Exhibit 99-7-4. So it's not a
6 prosecution exhibit, I apologise -- okay, 99-7-4.
7 A. That was the document I saw yesterday.
8 Q. Yes. You said that it did not give you any
9 military function. That's your evidence, isn't it?
10 A. Well, you can see everything from the
11 preamble of that document. This is an authorisation
12 based on the decision by the war presidency regarding
13 equipping and supplying and distribution of this
14 material and nothing more.
15 Q. It says in paragraph 3, does it not, "All
16 kinds of agreements on possible joint actions of troops
17 from other areas and theatres of operation in our area
18 and theatre of operation and vice versa," doesn't it?
19 A. Absolutely not and every point can be
20 interpreted exclusively in the light of the preamble of
21 that document, and this is my interpretation and I
22 don't interpret it in any other way.
23 Q. Fine. But will you agree with me, and I'm
24 not asking you to agree with whatever interpretation
25 you think I'm putting on it, but merely to agree with
1 me, that it says in paragraph 3: "All kinds of
2 agreements on possible joint actions of troops from
3 other areas and theatres of operations in our area and
4 theatre of operation and vice versa"?
5 MS. RESIDOVIC: Objection. The witness has
6 just said that he interprets this in light of the
8 MR. NIEMANN: Well, Your Honours, I press the
9 question. I'm simply asking whether he agrees with me
10 that that's what the document says.
11 A. Everything that figures in the document stems
12 from the preamble of the document and that is all I
13 have to say.
14 MR. NIEMANN:
15 Q. Well, I will ask you to do something for me.
16 Will you please read paragraph 3?
17 A. "All forms of agreement about possible joint
18 actions of troops from other zones and theatres of
19 operations in other areas and on our own and vice
21 Q. Now, that is a task that is given to him by
22 the war presidency, is it not?
23 A. Only in accordance with the preamble of the
24 document in question.
25 Q. And it's a task that was given to him, both
1 by yourself and by Captain Ramic?
2 A. I would not agree with you there.
3 Q. It wasn't given to you by Ramic?
4 A. The signature of Captain Ramic, I explained
5 by the fact that Mr. Delalic was a military -- and as a
6 civilian, he could not leave, actually the area,
7 without permission. The orders he received were not
8 from Captain Ramic.
9 MS. RESIDOVIC: He was actually a military,
10 so please correct that error. The transcript says that
11 Mr. Delalic was a soldier but what it should say is he
12 was of military age. I apologise, but in English I see
13 again the word "soldier" and that is not something that
14 the witness has said. The witness said that he was
15 subject to conscription in the sense that he could be
16 mobilised for military service.
17 MR. NIEMANN:
18 Q. Now, Mr. Delalic also provided his house in
19 Konjic, in support of the military effort of Konjic to
20 defend itself, didn't he?
21 A. Mr. Delalic, as far as I know, did give part
22 of his house to accommodate the municipal
23 communications staff headquarters.
24 Q. And that communications function assisted the
25 military effort, did it not?
1 A. It was the municipal communications centre of
2 the municipal TO staff, and Mr. Delalic just allowed
3 them to use a certain part of his private home.
4 Q. Now, the document we looked at a moment ago,
5 and in your evidence you've spoken of Mr. Delalic
6 having a logistics function. A logistics function is a
7 military function, isn't it?
8 A. All people who obtained any resources and who
9 assisted the defence, according to you, would then be
10 soldiers, but that is not true. Mr. Delalic at that
11 point in time was a civilian. But through his
12 activities, he managed to procure certain resources for
13 the needs of the defence, but those activities do not
14 make him a soldier. Such activities were engaged in by
15 other people too. Other people were given such
16 authorisations too. It was not only for Mr. Delalic.
17 All the people who could be of assistance at the time,
18 would be given by us this kind of authorisation as
19 evidence so that they didn't have to be soldiers and
20 that was the case here.
21 Q. Now, considering you appointed Mr. Delalic to
22 the position of coordinator, I take it that that would
23 make you his superior, would it?
24 A. Mr. Delalic was a coordinator and this is a
25 function that we have clearly explained yesterday. He
1 was a man, a mediator, a communicator between the joint
2 command of the armed forces and the war presidency or,
3 rather, the economic staff or certain parts of that
4 body. He would reflect the needs of these bodies and
5 nothing more than that. In any event, those were his
6 duties which didn't place him in a position of a person
7 who could independently make decisions.
8 Q. Should I take that as a "yes" or a "no"?
9 A. He was not independent in decision making.
10 Q. That wasn't my question. My question was:
11 Seeing as you appointed him as coordinator, did that
12 make you his superior?
13 A. Not in the sense that you imply, but it makes
14 him accountable for the tasks that he received from the
15 war presidency, and he had to submit appropriate
16 reports to the body that appointed him.
17 Q. Well, who was his superior?
18 A. If it was the economic staff, if he was given
19 a task by the economic staff as a civilian body, then
20 he would be accountable to the economic staff. And if
21 he received a task from the civil defence, then he
22 would report to that body. Therefore, the war
23 presidency, as a body, had a wide range of segments
24 headed by various people.
25 Q. And the economic staff and the civilian
1 defence all came under the war presidency, did they
3 A. The civil defence and the economic staff were
4 component parts in the structure of the municipal
5 assembly or the war presidency as civilian bodies.
6 Q. You were president of the war presidency and
7 prior to that president of the municipal assembly?
8 A. You're using a term that was customary at the
9 time. The real name of the body --
10 JUDGE JAN: For example, Delalic has
11 appointed Ms. Residovic as his counsel. Does she
12 become his superior? He says he was just acting as a
13 go-between, acting as a link between the two
14 organisations. There's no question of any
15 superiority. This is what his position is. He submits
16 reports, but the bodies to which he submits these
17 reports is not his superior. As I said, Delalic has
18 appointed Madam Residovic as his counsel. She doesn't
19 become his subordinate.
20 MR. NIEMANN: Your Honour, in the
21 jurisdiction that I was formerly practising law,
22 whenever I acted for a client, I had to obey their
24 JUDGE JAN: But there was no relationship of
25 superiority and subordination.
1 MR. NIEMANN: I'm merely getting to the point
2 as to who gave him instructions and who he had to
3 report to. I got part of the question, but I'll move
4 on, Your Honours.
5 Q. Now, you said that Mr. Delalic had to make
6 reports to you, in his position as coordinator; is that
8 A. In any event, to the war presidency or to the
9 body that gave him an assignment, not to me personally,
10 but, yes, if he was given an assignment by a particular
11 department, then he would report to it.
12 Q. And what reports did he make?
13 A. Sometimes these were oral reports and
14 sometimes in writing.
15 Q. Can you tell us what the subject matter of
16 them were? I know it's been a long time ago, but if
17 you could --
18 A. Only dealing with what his task was, the
19 specific task.
20 Q. I'm asking you whether you recall any of the
21 subject matters of the reports that he made, what he
22 reported to you?
23 A. Yes, I remember on one occasion there was a
24 large delivery of flour coming from Croatia.
25 Q. And he told you about that?
1 A. Yes, because these supplies would be coming
3 Q. What of the military equipment and that that
4 he had acquired in his logistics capacity, did he tell
5 you about that?
6 A. The joint command of the armed forces did
7 have a department called assistant commander for
8 logistics, and Mr. Kevric was in charge of this
9 department. So any materials that arrived in Konjic,
10 if they were a part of the military equipment or
11 communications equipment, had to be taken over by the
12 responsible military bodies. And Delalic would just
13 say that they had arrived, but he would not, under any
14 circumstances, be responsible.
15 Q. Did he ever communicate with you about taking
16 receipt of logistics material that he had acquired?
17 I'm speaking particularly about the period of time
18 when --
19 A. No, that was not necessary because there were
20 people and bodies that were responsible for this. And
21 the war presidency is a civilian body, so it was not
22 within its terms of reference to enter into such
24 MR. O'SULLIVAN: Your Honour, there may be a
25 question of a translation or interpretation. Just a
1 moment, please. LiveNote, page 81, line 11, I believe
2 I heard the witness say "Kevric" and it came across
3 "Krevic." Perhaps that could be confirmed.
4 A. Yes, Kevric. He was the responsible person.
5 MR. NIEMANN:
6 Q. Doctor, do you know a person by the name of
7 Mr. Sinik, and I'll spell that because I may not have
8 pronounced it properly, S-I-N-I-K?
9 A. I think you mispronounced it. It doesn't
10 mean anything, what you have just said.
11 Q. That's why I've spelled it. I'll spell it
12 slowly again.
13 A. In our language, it doesn't fit somehow.
14 Q. The English, and I may have it wrong,
16 A. I'm afraid I can't understand.
17 Q. I think his name is "Joko ^ Sinik." Do you
18 know a person by that name?
19 A. No.
20 Q. He's a person who claims to have known you
21 for 20 years, but you don't know him?
22 A. I really cannot decipher. I cannot
23 recollect. I cannot find him.
24 Q. He apparently had a weekend house which was
25 close to your house. Does that help you?
1 A. I do not have a house at all. I have an
2 apartment in Konjic.
3 Q. Doctor, would you agree that, on occasions,
4 the war presidency and the Territorial Defence gave
5 joint orders?
6 A. Could you clarify the question, please?
7 Q. Certainly. Were there occasions when joint
8 orders were issued by both the war presidency and the
9 Territorial Defence or the commander of the Territorial
11 A. The war presidency could only issue orders as
12 envisaged by law, and if the signature of a commander
13 appeared on the document, as I just explained, using
14 the previous document, that was just the sign of,
15 perhaps, permission to men of military age to be able
16 to leave the municipality, nothing more.
17 Q. Well, perhaps you might look at a document
18 for me, Defence Exhibit D144 Va/18. I do apologise. I
19 will repeat that. It's Exhibit D144 Va/8. Just look
20 at this document for me, would you, please? Is that
21 your signature that appears at the --
22 A. Yes, this is very clear. I'll be glad to
23 explain it and why it is like this. Actually, the war
24 presidency, within the framework of its competencies,
25 set up Radio Konjic. In view of the fact that we were
1 at war, it was quite normal, customary for information
2 to be censored.
3 Q. Just to assist everyone in the court, could
4 you put the English version of it on the overhead
5 projector and then everyone can see what we're talking
6 about. Just put the English version there for me,
7 please. Just put it on the projector. I'm sorry to
8 have interrupted you, Doctor. Please continue.
9 A. The document has to do with the activities of
10 Radio Konjic, and Radio Konjic is an institution
11 founded by the war presidency. And in view of its
12 significance in the system of defence, certain
13 information could not be broadcast over the same radio
14 and that is why this paper was signed by the commander
15 on the censorship of any reports of a military nature
16 that could be used by the enemy. That is how I
17 explained this, so nothing more than that. It has to
18 do with the functioning of Radio Konjic as an
19 information media, as a media institution.
20 Q. Sir, having said all of that, you would agree
21 with me that it's a joint order?
22 A. No, it's not a joint order. It is a document
23 providing for the possibility for some kind of control
24 over information of a military nature and which, if
25 broadcast, would harm the defence of Konjic.
1 Q. What's the word in the middle of the -- will
2 you tell me what it says in the very middle of the top
3 of the page under the heading where it says "Republic
4 of Bosnia-Herzegovina Konjic Municipality War
5 Presidium," and then there's a word typed in the middle
6 of the page. What is that word?
7 A. Which word? I don't see it.
8 Q. Do you see the word at the top of the page
9 that says "Order"?
10 A. It doesn't say "I order." It says, "It is
11 ordered," and the order refers to a civilian
12 institution, Radio Konjic.
13 Q. My question was whether it was an order. It
14 says that it's an order. It looks like an order. It
15 acts like an order. Surely it's an order.
16 A. I explained yesterday we had the right to
17 give orders to bodies which we founded, that is,
18 administrative bodies or other institutions that we had
19 founded and radio Konjic was an institution founded by
20 the war presidency, and according to the municipal
21 statute, article 66, we were entitled to do so.
22 MS. RESIDOVIC: I apologise for a minor
23 intervention. I think the Bosnian version should be
24 put on ELMO too. I don't see the heading, the word
25 "order," that is seen in the translation. There may
1 be an error in the translation.
2 JUDGE JAN: How would you translate that word
3 in English, that Bosnian word in English? How would
4 you translate that word, that Bosnian word into
6 MS. RESIDOVIC: I don't know, but the text in
7 Bosnian does not contain that word and I just wish to
8 draw your attention to this. I am not a translator.
9 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: I don't think it really
10 matters. It depends on the institution issuing the
11 order. If it's a civilian institution issuing the
12 order, it doesn't have the same effect as a military
13 institution. They are not the same.
14 MR. NIEMANN: I tender that document, Your
15 Honour, for the truth of its contents, having it been
17 MS. RESIDOVIC: The witness did not recognise
18 it, he recognised the document without the heading.
19 JUDGE JAN: That is his document.
20 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: He signed it.
21 JUDGE JAN: That is his document.
22 MS. RESIDOVIC: Yes, but addressed to a
23 civilian body.
24 MS. RESIDOVIC: Yes, it is his document, but
25 he didn't recognise the English translation in which
1 the heading is "Order". In the Bosnian version there's
2 no such heading. That is the only difference. Because
3 this heading doesn't exist in the Bosnian version.
4 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: So tender the Bosnian
6 MR. NIEMANN: I tender both, Your Honour, and
7 note that it's not my translation, it's Madam
8 Residovic's translation.
9 Q. Now, doctor, were you aware that, in addition
10 to authorisations given to Mr. Delalic by you and by
11 Mr. Ramic, he also had authorisation to conclude
12 certain agreements based on authorisations that he
13 received directly from the ministry of defence in
15 A. I wouldn't agree with your statement. He
16 received authorisations from the war presidency and not
17 from Mr. Ramic. He could be given just permission from
18 Ramic to go away, being subject to conscription. At
19 the same time, I must say that I do know that he had
20 such authorisations, some such authorisations, what in
21 particular, I don't know.
22 Q. And he -- really the point of my question was
23 not about Mr. Ramic, but whether or not he had
24 authorisations from the ministry of defence in
25 Sarajevo, that you knew about?
1 JUDGE JAN: He says yes.
2 MR. NIEMANN: I am not sure what he said yes
3 to, Your Honour.
4 JUDGE JAN: He said he was authorised, but he
5 doesn't know in respect of what matters. That's what
6 he said.
7 THE WITNESS: The question is unclear. I
8 really don't know what you're asking me.
9 MR. NIEMANN: Well, it may resolve itself
10 this way.
11 Q. Would you look at Exhibit P-235. Now,
12 doctor, just looking at that particular document, and
13 perhaps you might put the English version on the
14 overhead projector so their Honours can see and the
15 Defence can see what we're talking about. Would you do
16 that for me? Now that's a document signed by Minister
17 Jerko Doko, is that right?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. And it's issued by the ministry of defence in
21 A. Yes, what's the problem?
22 Q. The point I am asking you, were you aware of
23 this authorisation that was given to Mr. Delalic?
24 A. The war presidency was not a body that was
25 required to send out such information.
1 Q. All I am asking you is, when you read this
2 document, you see that it gives Mr. Delalic
3 authorisation, by the ministry of defence in Sarajevo,
4 to conclude agreements on mutual exchanges of
5 equipment, et cetera, do you see that? Now all I am
6 asking you is, were you aware of this authorisation in
7 your capacity as president of the war presidency? A
8 simple yes or no will do.
9 A. Well, at the moment it was issued, I was not
10 aware of this because it may not address the body of
11 which I was in charge, so there was no reason that I
12 had to know this.
13 Q. Were you subsequently informed about it?
14 A. No. It's the first time I see this document.
15 Q. I see. So, it's true then, obviously, that
16 Mr. Delalic may have had authorisations and powers that
17 you, yourself, did not know about, even at the time or
18 even now, indeed?
19 A. I would not agree with you, with that
20 statement. I am only sure that Mr. Delalic was a
22 JUDGE JAN: -- Change his status.
23 MR. NIEMANN: I wouldn't press it, Your
25 Q. Now I think you testified to the fact that
1 the war presidency formed a commission which had the
2 responsibility of settling matters of people who were
3 killed or injured or missing, did you testify as to
5 JUDGE JAN: He's referring to that document.
6 THE WITNESS: Yes, such a commission did
8 MR. NIEMANN:
9 Q. And Jasna Dzumhur was appointed as the
11 A. Vice-president of that commission, yes.
12 Q. And apart from its duties and obligations, it
13 was required to keep records of its work?
14 A. Yes, they were directly accountable to the
15 same body, state body, a central state body in
16 Sarajevo. And occasionally they would submit reports
17 about their work and about the activities of the war
18 presidency. But the superior body was in Sarajevo.
19 Q. And what was the superior body in Sarajevo?
20 A. I think it still exists, chaired by Mr.
21 Masovic, it is a state body dealing with missing
22 persons, I think. I think that is the case.
23 Q. What's that called? Do you know it's name?
24 It doesn't matter if you don't, but if you know it's
25 name it might help us?
1 A. I don't know the details, but I think it is
2 the commission in Sarajevo chaired by Mr. Masovic. I
3 think it was -- it's referred to as a state commission
4 for the missing persons or something to that effect.
5 In any case, it did exist.
6 Q. Is it a military body or a civilian body?
7 A. No, no, it is a civilian body, not a military
9 Q. Now you said a moment ago, a few minutes ago,
10 that that sometimes you received reports from this
12 A. Because Jasna Dzumhur was an official of the
13 municipal assembly of Konjic.
14 Q. Did you ever receive any reports on people
15 that had died in Celebici?
16 A. I don't remember having received such
17 reports, but if there were such reports, the servers of
18 -- there was a special service dealing with this and
19 it was able to communicate with a service of persons
20 on -- actual funeral services.
21 Q. Well, did you receive any reports from the
22 funeral services?
23 A. The funeral service was in charge of this and
24 I think that all the institutions were, in some way,
25 under the obligation to submit reports on their work to
1 the municipal assembly of Konjic, or, in other words,
2 to the war presidency, because these were all basically
3 civilian bodies. And the commission on funeral
4 services, I think it was part of a company of an
5 enterprise. I don't know if it was the public
6 utilities enterprise, it was a service within that
7 company, which dealt with the burial of persons, of
8 dead persons.
9 Q. And do you remember receiving reports on
10 people who had been buried, who died in Celebici camp?
11 A. I know that, I know that some people had
12 died, but I cannot remember the details at the moment.
13 Q. Can you remember how it was said that they
14 died? What they died of?
15 A. As far as I can remember, and on the basis of
16 the information I have had, that those were people who
17 suffered from serious chronicle diseases, diabetes,
18 heart diseases.
19 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: I think we'll have to
20 have a break here and return at 4.30. Now when we
21 return at 4.30, we intend to have a status conference
22 on the problems of -- because signing the witnesses and
23 the duplications we've been having on witness' lists.
24 And we'll deal with that at 4.30.
25 MS. RESIDOVIC: Your Honour, should the
1 witness wait until after the status conference or can
2 he be discharged? Your Honours, should the witness
3 wait until after the status conference or should he be
4 discharged for the moment?
5 JUDGE JAN: The witness can wait to be
7 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Cross-examination is not
8 finished. Wait to be discharged.
9 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 4:02
10 p.m. to be reconvened on Friday, the 22nd day
11 of May, 1998 at 10.00 a.m.