Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 11801

1 --- Upon commencing at 10.51 a.m.

2 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Good morning, ladies and

3 gentlemen.

4 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honour,

5 case number IT-96-21-T.

6 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: May we have the

7 appearances, please?

8 MS. McHENRY: Good morning, Your Honours,

9 Theresa McHenry for the Prosecution appearing with Mr.

10 Turone and Ms. Udo. Mr. Niemann will be joining us

11 later this morning. Thank you.

12 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Can we have the

13 appearances for the Defence, please?

14 MS. RESIDOVIC: Good morning, Your Honours.

15 My name is Edina Residovic appearing on behalf of

16 Mr. Zejnil Delalic along with my colleague Professor

17 Eugene O'Sullivan from Canada.

18 MR. OLUJIC: Good morning, Your Honours. My

19 name is Zelko Olujic, attorney from Croatia, appearing

20 on behalf of Zdravko Mucic along with my colleague

21 Tomislav Kuzmanovic, attorney from the United States of

22 America.

23 MR. KARABDIC: Good morning, Your Honours.

24 I'm Salih Karabdic, attorney from Sarajevo, appearing

25 on behalf of Mr. Hazim Delic along with my learned

Page 11802

1 colleague Mr. Thomas Moran, attorney from Houston,

2 Texas.

3 MS. BOLER: Good morning, Your Honours. My

4 name is Nancy Boler and I represent Esad Landzo. I

5 will tell you that it is my understanding that Cynthia

6 McMurrey is on a plane now and should arrive in

7 Amsterdam early this afternoon.

8 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Thank you very much.

9 Please have the witness come in.

10 (The witness entered court)

11 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Ms. Residovic, if you

12 might proceed with the witness.

13 MS. RESIDOVIC: Thank you, Your Honours.


15 Examined by Ms. Residovic

16 Q. Mr. Hadzihuseinovic, good morning.

17 A. Good morning.

18 Q. I hope you had a good night's rest and that

19 today's interview will be smooth. Yesterday before the

20 break, we discussed some of the competencies of the war

21 presidency; do you remember that?

22 A. I do.

23 Q. Tell me, please, Mr. Hadzihuseinovic, did the

24 war presidency have any kind of authority in relation

25 to the prisons?

Page 11803

1 A. The war presidency had absolutely no

2 authority with respect to the prisons.

3 Q. You said yesterday that the chief of the

4 public security station was ex officio member of the

5 war presidency. My question is: To whom was the

6 public security station in Konjic subordinated?

7 A. The public security station in Konjic was

8 subordinated to the ministry of internal affairs of the

9 republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina.

10 Q. Could the war presidency take decisions on

11 the formation of prisons?

12 A. Such decisions, the war presidency could

13 never take because it was not part of its competencies.

14 Q. Could the war presidency take decisions on

15 the detention of people in prisons?

16 A. In view of what I have just said, the war

17 presidency cannot do that.

18 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: It was stated by this

19 witness that your client was never a member of the war

20 presidency and could not have been. I don't see why

21 all this concerns the witness at all, if you are

22 talking anything relating to the client, to the Defence

23 of the accused.

24 MS. RESIDOVIC: Yes. That is precisely my

25 next question.

Page 11804

1 Q. Could you, having appointed a person as a

2 coordinator, convey to him, any authority, in relation

3 to the prison?

4 A. Absolutely not.

5 Q. In addition to what you have told us, as

6 being the duties of the coordinator, did the war

7 presidency, or you personally, ever give Mr. Delalic

8 any other authorisations which are not contained in the

9 decision on his appointment?

10 A. The war presidency could not give Mr. Delalic

11 any authority that would go beyond the authority of the

12 war presidency itself.

13 Q. Who appointed persons of Croatian ethnicity

14 to certain posts in those days?

15 A. Those appointments could only have been done

16 by authorised people in the Croatian Defence Council.

17 Q. Did you have any authority to appoint members

18 of the military investigations commission and to convey

19 such rights to anyone else?

20 A. I personally, nor the war presidency, had any

21 authority to appoint members of that commission, nor

22 could it give it any particular assignment.

23 Q. In spite of the fact that you had no such

24 authority, did you at any point in time authorise

25 Mr. Zejnil Delalic to appoint any one of the members of

Page 11805

1 the military investigations commission?

2 A. The war presidency did not give Mr. Delalic

3 such authority, nor could it.

4 Q. If anyone were to tell you that Zejnil

5 Delalic appointed Jerko Kostic to the military

6 investigations commission, what would you,

7 Hadzihuseinovic, say to that?

8 A. I'm not interested, now, about what anyone

9 may have said. I'm speaking here under oath, and I

10 think that if anybody did say that, then it is not

11 true.

12 Q. Mr. Hadzihuseinovic, you said that you were

13 aware of combat operations being conducted on the basis

14 of decisions by military organs to deblock the town.

15 Tell me, please, are you personally aware that after

16 the lifting of the blockade of the town to the north,

17 that is, in the area of Bradina and in the south-west in

18 the area of Donje Selo, were after that a number of

19 persons arrested and taken into custody?

20 A. Yes, I'm aware of that fact.

21 Q. In view of the fact that you already stated

22 here in court, which were the bodies responsible, which

23 had the powers to arrest, did the coordinator whom you

24 appointed have any authority in terms of arrest and

25 detention?

Page 11806

1 A. By definition of the function he performed,

2 he could not have had any such powers.

3 Q. After the detention of these people, did you,

4 Mr. Hadzihuseinovic, go to Celebici and see those

5 people?

6 A. Yes. I saw them on one occasion during a

7 medical examinations, as a doctor, because the medical

8 centre, as an institution, founded by the war

9 presidency, formed a medical commission consisting of

10 several members to examine those persons and to provide

11 medical care for them. That was the duty of this

12 institution.

13 MS. RESIDOVIC: I apologise, Your Honours,

14 I'm getting the French interpretation. It's fine now,

15 thank you. I apologise.

16 Q. Please continue, Mr. Hadzihuseinovic.

17 A. I think I've answered your question. I was

18 aware of that fact when a medical commission was formed

19 by the medical centre in Konjic, which was an

20 institution set up by the municipality, and the duty of

21 which, is to take care of the health of all the

22 inhabitants of the municipality of Konjic. The

23 detained persons were citizens of Konjic municipality.

24 Q. As a doctor who examined the detainees, can

25 you tell us whether you extended aid and what kind of

Page 11807

1 injuries you found?

2 A. The detained persons came from the area of

3 combat operations and they had the injuries inflicted

4 in war. Those with minor injuries, aid was extended ad

5 hoc, and those who had more serious injuries, they were

6 hospitalised.

7 Q. Thank you. After this examination which, as

8 you said, occurred immediately after these people were

9 taken into custody, did you, as the president of the

10 war presidency, take a decision regarding the health

11 care of these detainees?

12 A. After these police and military operations in

13 the areas mentioned, the war presidency at its session

14 held on June 3rd, of that year, adopted a series of

15 conclusions, and one of those was related to the civil

16 defence bodies, as well as the medical centre as a

17 health care institution. Those decisions had to do

18 with extending medical services and other humanitarian

19 services to all persons including those in detention.

20 MS. RESIDOVIC: Before the recess yesterday,

21 Mr. Hadzihuseinovic was shown the conclusions. This is

22 Defence Exhibit D136, D14. Could these conclusions be

23 shown to the doctor once again, whether those are the

24 conclusions he has just referred to?

25 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Do you have some other

Page 11808

1 questions now, you can ask? Will you please continue

2 with your other questions. He remembers the

3 conclusions which he made and that should be enough for

4 the trial.

5 MS. RESIDOVIC: Yes, Your Honours. This

6 witness has signed these conclusions. I would like to

7 show them to him if they are found, but I will

8 proceed.

9 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Please proceed.


11 Q. Mr. Hadzihuseinovic, could you please tell me

12 since you spoke about serious shortages in town, did

13 the war presidency, in discharging its constitutional

14 obligations regarding the supply of the population and

15 the armed forces; did it give certain assignments to

16 deal with the problem?

17 A. Yes, certainly. We gave such authorisation

18 to all people who could, in whatever way, be of

19 assistance in terms of procurement of food supplies,

20 fuel and all other supplies required for the

21 functioning of the municipality. We gave quite a

22 number of such authorisations.

23 Q. Tell me, please, Mr. Hadzihuseinovic, before

24 Zejnil Delalic was appointed coordinator on the 18th of

25 May, did the war presidency give Zejnil Delalic any

Page 11809

1 such authorisation along the lines of what you have

2 just described?

3 A. Yes, I do remember. We did give such an

4 authorisation to Mr. Delalic and it had to do with the

5 procurement of material and equipment which Mr. Delalic

6 was about to carry out in the Republic of Croatia.

7 MS. RESIDOVIC: With the help of the usher,

8 could Mr. Hadzihuseinovic be shown Prosecutor's Exhibit

9 99-7/4. Do you have the Bosnian version, please?

10 Perhaps it's underneath.

11 Q. Mr. Hadzihuseinovic, are you the signatory of

12 this authorisation issued by the war presidency?

13 A. Yes, I am.

14 Q. This authorisation which you gave to

15 Mr. Delalic, did it give him any kind of military

16 powers or functions?

17 A. No, absolutely not. All the points of this

18 authorisation have to do with equipment, supplies and

19 distribution of supplies which is clearly stated in the

20 preamble of this authorisation, and it has no other

21 meaning.

22 Q. Mr. Hadzihuseinovic, did the signatures of

23 military commanders figure sometimes on your

24 authorisations?

25 A. Yes.

Page 11810

1 Q. Can you please explain to the court why

2 authorisations issued by the war presidency, to a

3 person, to travel, are sometimes signed by military

4 commanders?

5 A. Yes. The signatures of military commanders

6 appear simply as confirmation of their being informed

7 and being present and they mean nothing more than

8 that.

9 Q. Could a military conscript abandon the

10 territory of the municipality without the signature of

11 a military commander, in those days?

12 A. No military conscript, at the time, could

13 leave the territory of Konjic municipality without

14 having the permission of the competent -- of the

15 appropriate national defence command.

16 Q. Was this too the reason why these

17 authorisations issued by military commanders were also

18 signed by military -- issued by the civilian

19 authorities were also signed by military commanders?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. One further question in connection with this

22 document, Mr. Hadzihuseinovic. This document, whereby

23 you authorised Mr. Delalic to undertake certain steps

24 to procure war equipment, did this document and this

25 authorisation give Mr. Delalic any kind of command

Page 11811

1 function or a position of superior authority over any

2 one?

3 A. No, this authorisation could not give him

4 that.

5 Q. Thank you very much. Mr. Hadzihuseinovic,

6 which were the acts which the war presidency, as a body

7 substituting for the assembly, could adopt?

8 A. The war presidency could issue all acts

9 stipulated by the constitution and legal regulations,

10 as well as those enactments envisaged by the statute of

11 Konjic Municipality. Those listed in Article 66 of

12 that statute. And they are conclusions, decisions and

13 orders.

14 Q. Thank you. If the war presidency issued

15 orders, which bodies could those orders refer to?

16 A. When issuing orders, the war presidency could

17 only issue them with respect to the administrative

18 bodies of the Municipality of Konjic. And institutions

19 founded by it, such as, for instance, the medical

20 centre, civil defence, social welfare institutions and

21 the like.

22 Q. Thank you. Mr. Hadzihuseinovic, did you

23 sometimes transfer those authorities -- those powers to

24 issue orders to Mr. Zejnil Delalic as the coordinator?

25 A. At no point in time could the war presidency

Page 11812

1 convey, nor did it convey or transfer such authority to

2 Mr. Delalic. He was just a coordinator.

3 Q. Mr. Hadzihuseinovic, did you personally

4 attend the sending off of the Gijret unit, which was to

5 be subordinated to Tactical Group 1 in the month of

6 June, 1992?

7 A. Yes, I was invited and I attended that

8 ceremony.

9 Q. Can you tell me what was the role of Mr.

10 Zejnil Delalic on that occasion and what was yours?

11 A. Yes, I can. Because those roles were to a

12 certain point similar. We were just guests at a solemn

13 occasion to see off a military unit going on

14 assignment. We were not the only ones there. There

15 were other people from the economic life of the

16 municipality. We were present as civilians.

17 Q. Who was the commander of Konjic in the time?

18 A. I think at the time, the commander of the

19 municipal staff in Konjic was Mr. Esad Ramic.

20 Q. Mr. Hadzihuseinovic, yesterday, in answer to

21 my questions, you said that, in fact, the duty of

22 coordinator lasted until Mr. Delalic went into combat

23 within the framework of Oranj Operation, but that, in

24 fact, it continued until he became commander of

25 Tactical Group 1, though he spent the whole of July in

Page 11813

1 the area of Mount Prenj. Tell me please, did you ever

2 tour the front lines?

3 A. Yes, I did visit the combat areas on two

4 occasions.

5 Q. Can you tell us, Mr. Hadzihuseinovic,

6 whether, at the time, Mr. Zejnil Delalic had any

7 command function in that operation?

8 A. No, absolutely not. He couldn't have had.

9 The command functions at the time were held by Mr. Esad

10 Ramic and the chief of staff, Mr. Tahirovic. And Mr.

11 Delalic was there as a logistics officer, but his

12 function of coordinator did not cease while he was

13 there.

14 Q. How do you personally know that he engaged in

15 logistic affairs? Did you talk to him during that

16 visit about any, anything at all?

17 A. Yes, I remember well because I was due to go

18 to Split on business and I talked to him about the

19 needs, logistic needs, so I asked him if he could

20 convey that to the economic staff, if he had any such

21 requests. And after that visit, I left for Split the

22 next day.

23 Q. Mr. Hadzihuseinovic, in that period of time,

24 that is in the summer of 1992, did you have occasion to

25 talk to journalists visiting the town?

Page 11814

1 A. Yes, on a number of occasions because Konjic

2 was a town visited by many people, many delegations in

3 those days. Among others, many teams of journalists

4 are from Croatia and from abroad.

5 Q. Though some time has past since then, do you

6 remember whether that summer in '92 you were visited by

7 a group of Arab journalists?

8 A. Yes, I remember that particularly well.

9 Q. Could you explain why?

10 A. You see because the majority of

11 representatives of the media that came to Konjic would

12 talk to me in my office, but this group of journalists

13 expressed the wish to visit the combat lines, which I

14 found unusual. And furthermore, they also expressed

15 the wish to visit the prison, the Celebici prison, and

16 that is why I remember that visit.

17 Q. Mr. Hadzihuseinovic, did you assist this team

18 in fulfilling their wishes?

19 A. In view of the visit to the front lines, as

20 well as the visit to the prison, it was not within my

21 jurisdiction. Actually, it was not within my power to

22 permit such visits. I called up the competent bodies,

23 or rather, the people in those bodies of the

24 Territorial Defence and I think that they made it

25 possible for them to visit, both the front lines and

Page 11815

1 the Celebici prison.

2 Q. Mr. Hadzihuseinovic, did you meet with them

3 after those visits?

4 A. I think that we did meet briefly. And that

5 their impressions about those visits were positive.

6 They even promised that they would send me some

7 excerpts from their newspapers. I think this was a

8 newspaper published somewhere in London. However, in

9 view of the blockade and communications because of the

10 war, I never received those reports.

11 Q. Mr. Hadzihuseinovic, as we are talking about

12 the summer of '92, the month of July, tell me, was

13 there a function of regional commander there?

14 A. That function did not exist. It is -- it

15 does not exist. I am not aware of it.

16 Q. Tell me, Mr. Hadzihuseinovic, do you know if

17 Mr. Zejnil Delalic was appointed by the supreme command

18 to a military function?

19 A. Yes, I do know of that as a fact. I think

20 that Mr. Delalic was appointed commander of Tactical

21 Group 1 about the end of July, as far as I recall.

22 Q. After that time, did Mr. Zejnil Delalic have

23 any authority with respect to the war presidency of

24 Konjic?

25 A. After that appointment, Zejnil Delalic was

Page 11816

1 directly subordinated to the appropriate military

2 bodies. That is, the supreme command. And he had no

3 authority or relations with the war presidency. From

4 then on he became a military man.

5 Q. Mr. Hadzihuseinovic, do you know whether,

6 after that, Mr. Zejnil Delalic was given any kind of

7 authority over the prison in Konjic?

8 A. No, absolutely not. He couldn't have been

9 given any such authority.

10 JUDGE JAN: The war presidency, he had

11 nothing to do with the president. How would he know?

12 He never gave authority even when he was a coordinator

13 with the prison authorities. Why are you asking a

14 question with regard to which he is not a competent

15 witness? Please confine yourself to what he can

16 suppose and which is relevant for our case, nothing

17 more than that.

18 MS. RESIDOVIC: I thought that this man, as a

19 citizen of Konjic, may know this from personal

20 experience, not just as the president of the war

21 presidency, but -- I understand what you have said.

22 Q. Mr. Hadzihuseinovic, as the president of the

23 war presidency, did you visit the Celebici barracks

24 at -- on any other occasion?

25 JUDGE JAN: He said he visited once only as a

Page 11817

1 doctor.

2 THE WITNESS: I did visit it once more, this

3 compound, when a Territorial Defence unit was being

4 sworn in, so I visited the compound twice, once as a

5 doctor and once as a guest, as the president, during

6 the solemn occasion of the swearing in of an unit of

7 Territorial Defence of Konjic.


9 Q. On that occasion, did you personally know or

10 see whether Zejnil Delalic, who was at that time

11 commander of Tactical Group 1, did he attend that

12 ceremony?

13 A. I remember that he did attend the ceremony --

14 no, I'm sorry, the interpreter corrects himself --

15 herself. I remember that the commander Esad Ramic was

16 present, but I am not sure that Mr. Delalic was there,

17 but since he had a military function, he may have been

18 there.

19 Q. Can you just remember when that was?

20 A. Unfortunately, I cannot recall the date.

21 Q. Thank you. After the appointment of Mr.

22 Delalic to this military function, did you come across

23 him?

24 A. Very, very rarely because there was no

25 reason. Activities were different. We had two

Page 11818

1 different kinds of tasks.

2 Q. Do you know when Mr. Delalic, and under what

3 circumstances, left Konjic?

4 A. I think as far as I can recall --

5 JUDGE JAN: Your evidence is, the evidence

6 indicates that even General Ahmed suggested to him that

7 he should disappear because there have been attacks on

8 his life.

9 THE WITNESS: I know that.

10 JUDGE JAN: How can he add to that

11 information? He just left suddenly.

12 MS. RESIDOVIC: Well, this was the president

13 of the municipality, it was a citizen of his town. He

14 had experienced this and he knows more than the

15 deceased personally.

16 JUDGE JAN: We already know about that.

17 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: It's possible for every

18 other citizen. Any other citizen, he has competence to

19 give evidence about him. You brought him for certain

20 purposes and it's clear and his evidence should be

21 directed towards those purposes and no more. Don't go

22 wider than that. This is a duplication we have been

23 talking about all along. And you have so many of your

24 witnesses on the same theme, coming to say the same

25 things.

Page 11819

1 MS. RESIDOVIC: They're witnesses, yes. The

2 other witnesses do not have any personal knowledge.

3 The witness does have personal knowledge and I think

4 that you will find those witnesses very precious

5 indeed. Since I will be concluding my interrogation of

6 this witness in a few moments, may I be allowed to ask

7 him two questions of which he is personally

8 knowledgeable?

9 Q. Do you know how and under what circumstances

10 Mr. Delalic left Konjic?

11 A. Yes, I am personally aware of that. Mr.

12 Delalic, as far as I know, he left Konjic in November

13 of 1992 because there was a danger on -- for his life.

14 He was -- there was even an attempt to assassinate him

15 in his family home and luckily he survived this and

16 after that he left Konjic. There were different

17 stories with this respect, how he actually left the

18 municipality. I think these were merely speculations.

19 But what I have just mentioned is the fundamental

20 reason why he left. Because Mr. Delalic was a very

21 capable man and he personally appointed two various

22 obstructions between the TO and the HVO, which, at the

23 time, carried out such obstructions and that is why I

24 think he was a target of such structures and bodies.

25 Q. During the examination in chief, my last

Page 11820

1 question to Mr. Hadzihuseinovic, after the departure of

2 Mr. Delalic, did a false propaganda start in relation

3 to him?

4 A. Absolutely. But this did not really reflect

5 the truth. There were lots of accusations launched

6 against him, which were basically groundless. They

7 even went so far as to say that he had left Konjic by a

8 helicopter owned by the Serb forces, which was just a

9 fantasy. And there was a whole series of other things,

10 which did not simply reflect the true state of

11 affairs.

12 MS. RESIDOVIC: Thank you, Mr.

13 Hadzihuseinovic, I have concluded my examination in

14 chief of this witness. Thank you.

15 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Thank you very much. I

16 think we'll rise and come back at twelve noon for the

17 cross-examination of this witness.

18 --- Recess taken at 11.35 a.m.

19 --- On resuming at 12.04 p.m.

20 (The witness entered court)

21 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Kindly inform him he's

22 still under oath.

23 THE REGISTRAR: I remind you, sir, that you

24 are still under oath.

25 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Now, the witness is on

Page 11821

1 for cross-examination. Mr. Olujic, you start with the

2 cross-examination.

3 MR. OLUJIC: With your leave, Your Honour.

4 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: You may proceed, yes.

5 Cross-examined by Mr. Olujic

6 Q. Good day, Doctor.

7 A. Good day.

8 Q. We will have a short conversation and will

9 you please wait for my question to be interpreted into

10 one of the official languages of the court so that all

11 of us here present can follow what is being said.

12 Doctor, would you agree that after the fall

13 of Bradina, there were rebels and Chetniks still in the

14 woods?

15 A. Yes. The answer would be in the affirmative.

16 Q. Doctor, would you agree that there were other

17 rebels and armed robbers and people seeking revenge in

18 the woods?

19 A. I think I can say yes to that question too.

20 Q. Would you agree with me if I say that many of

21 the prisoners were actually Chetniks or members of the

22 JNA or members of the Serb Territorial Defence?

23 A. I think all the prisoners were citizens of

24 Konjic municipality, actually, the vast majority. I

25 wouldn't exclude that some were members of the JNA, but

Page 11822

1 the vast majority of the prisoners were citizens or

2 inhabitants of Konjic municipality and citizens of

3 Bosnia-Herzegovina.

4 Q. Would you agree with me if I say that, more

5 or less, all of those imprisoned were carrying arms?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Doctor, is it right to say that Konjic could

8 not be left without permission granted by the HVO?

9 A. I think that I have already answered that

10 question. No man of military age could leave the

11 territory of Konjic municipality without the permission

12 of the appropriate command, and those commands were the

13 TO command, the HVO command or the MUP, that is, the

14 police station. These were the three components of the

15 armed forces with separate chains of command. In any

16 event, men of military age had to have permission to be

17 able to leave the territory of the Konjic municipality.

18 Q. Would it be right to say, Doctor, that in the

19 spring and summer of 1992, due to various

20 circumstances, the people of Konjic municipality was

21 not sufficiently well-organised or sufficiently

22 well-armed?

23 A. Yes, that statement is correct.

24 Q. Doctor, could it be said that, you as a

25 prominent figure in the municipality of Konjic people,

Page 11823

1 obeyed as a doctor and as an intelligent man, that is,

2 as a citizen, but not also as any kind of military

3 commander?

4 A. Yes, that is correct.

5 Q. Would it also be right to say that at the

6 beginning, the defence as a whole was organised on that

7 basis, on the basis of mutual respect and trust?

8 A. No. The defence cannot be based on mutual

9 trust. Defence is based on precisely defined

10 principles stipulated by law, the regulations passed by

11 the state.

12 Q. Very well. Do you know Mr. Zdravko Mucic?

13 A. Yes, I know Mr. Zdravko Mucic personally. I

14 have known him for many years, as well as his family,

15 because Konjic is a small town and we all know one

16 another.

17 Q. Tell me, as far as you know, did Mr. Mucic

18 have a military or police rank?

19 A. I do not know.

20 Q. Can it be said that, as far as you know, he

21 did not have any military or police rank?

22 A. I do not know.

23 MR. OLUJIC: Thank you, Doctor; thank you,

24 Your Honours. I have no further questions.

25 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Yes, Mr. Moran?

Page 11824

1 MR. MORAN: May it please the court?

2 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: You may proceed.

3 Cross-examined by Mr. Moran

4 Q. Good afternoon, Doctor.

5 A. Good afternoon.

6 Q. Doctor, I'm going to ask you a couple of

7 questions about three areas and then I think we will be

8 done. The first thing I want to talk to you about is

9 this: Somewhere in evidence in here, and I won't try

10 to find it, there's a videotape that shows you wearing

11 a military uniform, camouflage fatigues. Would you

12 agree with me that you did do that during the summer of

13 1992?

14 A. Yes, I would agree with you.

15 Q. You were a civilian the entire time of the

16 summer of 1992; is that right?

17 A. Absolutely right.

18 Q. The fact that you were wearing a military

19 uniform did not make you a soldier, did it?

20 A. Certainly not. That was only because it was

21 an honour to wear a uniform, and many civilians were

22 wearing uniforms even though they were not military

23 men.

24 Q. Thank you very much, Doctor, on that. Let me

25 go on to another subject. This subject has less to do

Page 11825

1 with your role as a politician and a political leader

2 than as your role as a physician. For that, let me ask

3 you a few preliminary questions.

4 Doctor, as part of your training and

5 experience as a physician, did you receive training in

6 infectious diseases?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Have you kept current with infectious

9 diseases and how they are transmitted and whether there

10 would be epidemics, that kind of thing, given certain

11 conditions?

12 A. Yes, particularly as we had an exam that we

13 had to sit for called "War Surgery," surgery in

14 wartime.

15 MR. NIEMANN: Your Honours, if Mr. Moran is

16 endeavouring to make this witness an expert, I just

17 wish to indicate that we haven't been given any details

18 of his expertise on medical matters.

19 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: I don't think he's doing

20 that.

21 MR. MORAN: Thank you, Your Honour. By the

22 way, this is also not my witness.

23 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: That doesn't matter.


25 Q. Doctor, also as part of your training and

Page 11826

1 experience as a physician, are you familiar with the

2 practise of medicine in both the Konjic municipality

3 and throughout the former Socialist Federal Republic of

4 Yugoslavia as it applies to obtaining, what I would

5 call, informed consent by a patient. And by "informed

6 consent," what I mean is explaining to a patient the

7 results of and possible side effects of a medical

8 procedure before the patient consents to that

9 procedure?

10 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: I'm not sure he

11 understands what you're saying.

12 MR. MORAN: I've probably made it too

13 complicated.

14 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: I think you have, yes.

15 MR. MORAN: And if I make something too

16 complicated, stop me.

17 Q. Are you familiar with the practise,

18 throughout the former SFRY, of explaining to patients

19 medical procedures and the results of those procedures

20 and --

21 A. I will answer that question.

22 Q. Thank you, Doctor.

23 A. Medical deontology requires, from every

24 physician and especially a surgeon, before undertaking

25 any kind of measures relating to the patient to explain

Page 11827

1 the nature of that treatment, the possible consequences

2 and the consent of the patient for the execution of

3 that treatment.

4 Q. And a physician would be sure that the

5 patient understood all of that before going ahead with

6 the procedure?

7 A. Yes, certainly.

8 Q. Now, the last thing I'm going to ask you

9 about. Let me come back to that in a minute. Doctor,

10 yesterday after court, remember when I showed you this

11 model over here, that's in front of you, and if you

12 want to refer to the model, you're more than welcome to

13 go up and look at it. Based on that, I'm going to ask

14 you a hypothetical question.

15 Doctor, do you remember the tunnel I showed

16 you, we pulled the top off of it? Doctor, presume with

17 me for a minute that you have a large number of people

18 who are in that tunnel; and presume with me again for a

19 minute that they are taking care of their bodily

20 functions, if you would, at the bottom of that tunnel

21 and that there is a large amount of urine and faeces at

22 the bottom of that tunnel; and presume with me again

23 for a minute that some of that waste material got on

24 the food that they were eating. Do you follow me so

25 far, Doctor?

Page 11828

1 A. Yes, I do.

2 Q. In all reasonable medical probability,

3 Doctor, would there be an outbreak of infectious

4 diseases?

5 A. Yes, if that were to happen.

6 Q. Remember the hangar number 6 I showed you of,

7 the model of the large warehouse where I showed you

8 where the people were kept? Presume with me again for

9 a minute that about 300 people are being held in there

10 in very bad weather conditions, very hot weather

11 conditions. Presume with me that they are given very

12 little food and very little water; and presume with me

13 that that water is contaminated with human bodily

14 waste. What is the chance in all reasonable medical

15 probability that there would be an outbreak of

16 infectious diseases?

17 A. If all that was as you just described, then

18 the chances are quite considerable for an epidemic to

19 break out of an infectious disease, if things were as

20 you have just described them, from the standpoint of

21 medicine.

22 Q. By the way, as part of your duties as

23 president of the war presidency during the summer of

24 1992, if there had been an outbreak of infectious

25 diseases in the Celebici prison, would you have been

Page 11829

1 informed of that?

2 A. I can just tell you one thing, Your Honours,

3 that throughout the war, our medical institution, the

4 medical centre in Konjic and the hospital undertook

5 hygiene and epidemiological measures that applied to

6 all the inhabitants of Konjic in order to prevent the

7 outbreak of infectious diseases and epidemics

8 throughout our territory. I'm not aware of our hygiene

9 and epidemiology service having informed the war

10 presidency as the body in charge about the outbreak of

11 any epidemics or any large scale illnesses in the

12 Celebici compound. If that had happened, I would have

13 had to be informed, in view of the position I held, by

14 the appropriate medical institutions because those

15 institutions functioned throughout the war.

16 Q. Doctor --

17 A. We carried out vaccinations, inoculations of

18 children against infectious diseases, so we would have

19 done the same had any such epidemics broken out.

20 Q. Given those conditions that I laid out for

21 you in those two hypothetical situations, if disease

22 had broken out and there was very little medicine

23 available to care for those people, in all reasonable

24 medical probability, would there have been a large

25 number of deaths?

Page 11830

1 A. Yes, certainly, because most epidemics, if

2 they were to break out under those conditions, would be

3 of the group of diseases which break out due to the use

4 of contaminated water or food, intestinal

5 diseases, hepatitis and the like, which would certainly

6 have undesired consequences in terms of the lives of

7 those infected.

8 Q. Thank you very much on that, Doctor. Let me

9 change gears a little bit here and let me talk a little

10 bit with you about informed consent. Doctor, presume

11 with me for a minute that a woman for very good medical

12 reasons, proper medical reasons, in the Konjic

13 municipality in the mid-1980's, say 1985, were to

14 undergo a hysterectomy and this woman were of normal

15 child-bearing years, before she underwent that

16 operation, would the doctor who was going to perform

17 that operation make sure that she knew absolutely

18 positively that she could never have children?

19 A. Not only is that normal but it is the

20 obligation of the doctor to tell her that.

21 Q. So that patient would be fully aware that no

22 matter what else occurred in her life, after the

23 operation, she could never bear children?

24 MR. NIEMANN: I object to that, Your Honour.

25 How can he know what a patient would be fully aware

Page 11831

1 of?

2 JUDGE JAN: If she went through that type of

3 operation, the woman would know.

4 MR. NIEMANN: It's the doctor knowing it that

5 I'm concerned with.

6 JUDGE JAN: It's common knowledge and I

7 thought --

8 MR. NIEMANN: I would have thought, Your

9 Honour, that men would have a problem understanding

10 that.

11 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: In any event, this is

12 hypothetical, isn't it?

13 MR. MORAN: I'm asking him a hypothetical

14 question because he was not present.

15 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Not relating it to any

16 particular thing.

17 MR. MORAN: I'm not relating it to any person

18 or any place. I will do that later. I'm sure the

19 court is aware.

20 Q. Doctor, let me put it this way: Would a

21 physician in the Konjic municipality perform this type

22 of operation on a woman, if there were any doubt in his

23 mind, that the woman did not understand absolutely,

24 positively that no matter what occurred in the rest of

25 her life, she would not be able to bear children?

Page 11832

1 A. It is the duty of the doctor, according to

2 medical ethics, to indicate all the circumstances to

3 the patient and to get the patient's consent. He could

4 not carry out such an operation without the patient's

5 consent and unless he had explained all the possible

6 consequences of such a procedure.

7 Q. Now, Konjic is a rather small city and

8 there's relatively a few number of doctors there. Are

9 you familiar with the physicians who have practised

10 there since the mid-1980's. Personally, you know

11 them. They are your colleagues. Are you familiar with

12 their ethics?

13 A. Yes, I know all the doctors going back 40

14 years.

15 Q. Now, the question I'm going to ask is this:

16 Do you know of any physician in the Konjic municipality

17 since the mid-1980's, early 1980's, who would perform

18 this kind of operation without being convinced in his

19 own heart that the woman knew the results of the

20 operation?

21 A. That is absolutely out of the question.

22 There is no such person. That would run counter to the

23 principles of medical ethics.

24 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: This is his opinion,

25 isn't it, not the fact that it couldn't happen.

Page 11833

1 MR. MORAN: That's true. That's absolutely

2 correct, Your Honour, because he was not there, but he

3 knows -- well, you heard what he said and you can judge

4 what it's worth.

5 Q. Let me go to another area, again involving

6 medicine. Where I come from, and I suspect where

7 everybody else comes from, there are certain kinds of

8 medicines which are available, they are called

9 over-the-counter medicines. I can go to a pharmacist

10 or, for that matter, a grocery store and get a bottle

11 of Aspirin or some cold medication. There are other

12 kinds of medicines which you have to have a physician's

13 prescription for, before you can get them. I'm sure

14 it's that way in the former Yugoslavia and in

15 Bosnia-Herzegovina to this good day; is that correct,

16 Doctor?

17 A. Yes. Ever since our profession exists, it's

18 been like that.

19 Q. Let me ask you about a specific kind of

20 medication, contraceptive pills. Does one have to have

21 a prescription to purchase contraceptive pills?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. In, say, April 1992 in, say, Konjic or maybe

24 Bradina, did one need a prescription to purchase those

25 pills at that time?

Page 11834

1 A. Yes, always.

2 Q. Were they available, by the way? Even if you

3 had a prescription, could you get them?

4 A. At that time, there was a general shortage of

5 medicines. As for the medicines that we received

6 through humanitarian aid, the consignments did not

7 include contraceptives. There is a small chance that

8 there were any contraceptives at all, in those days,

9 and if any, they could be obtained only with a medical

10 prescription.

11 Q. Doctor, I have one more question and someone

12 has asked me to ask this to you. Isn't it correct,

13 sir, that during the period from May through November

14 or December of 1992 you are not aware whether Pavo

15 Mucic held any military or police function, are you?

16 A. Yes. I saw Pavo Mucic only twice in that

17 period, once when I was there for the first time, in

18 the Celebici compound, when I examined the patients

19 together with my colleagues, and the second time at the

20 swearing in ceremony. I do not know in what capacity

21 he was there.

22 Q. By the way, Doctor, that reminded me of

23 another question. When you were there examining the

24 prisoners in your professional capacity as a physician,

25 about when was that? It slipped my mind. I know you

Page 11835

1 said it and it just slipped my mind.

2 A. I think it was immediately at the beginning

3 after they were taken to the compound. I couldn't tell

4 you the exact date, but I think it was at the

5 beginning.

6 Q. Now --

7 A. I think that the police and military

8 operation in Bradina took place from the 25th to the

9 27th of May, as far as I can remember, that is, the

10 second half of May, and Donje Selo was also 20th to the

11 22nd of May, so that was about then. Even though a

12 long time has gone by, I hope I can say that with

13 accuracy, the second half of May.

14 Q. As part of your training and experience as a

15 physician, I presume that you have dealt with trauma,

16 traffic accidents, blunt trauma, beatings, shootings,

17 knifings?

18 JUDGE JAN: He's a urologist. He is not a

19 general surgeon or a general physician.

20 MR. MORAN: That's true, Your Honour. That's

21 why I'm asking whether he has any experience in that

22 area. If he doesn't, that's fine too, any training in

23 it.

24 A. I must tell you something because my

25 knowledge in general surgery and urological surgery is

Page 11836

1 indeed broad. But when we're talking about the wartime

2 period, I must tell you that the experience I gained in

3 that period makes me competent for all areas of

4 surgery, gynaecological surgery, urological surgery.

5 There were only two surgeons so we did everything,

6 traumatology, orthopaedics. We even opened the skull

7 when necessary because there was no possibility to

8 transport patients, so we had to engage in some

9 procedures which were not within our particular

10 speciality. I wish we had all the necessary

11 specialities.

12 Q. I presume that you could recognise people who

13 were the victims of beatings? If you examined someone

14 and that person had been beaten, you could notice

15 that? While you were examining those prisoners at

16 Konjic -- roughly how many did you examine, a rough

17 number? If you don't remember, you don't remember.

18 A. I couldn't remember exactly, but I think that

19 they were brought to us by the nurses and those were

20 the people who themselves expressed the wish to be

21 examined. We didn't examine them all, only those who

22 had reason to be examined, who applied for medical aid,

23 who had certain problems.

24 Q. Did they look like --

25 A. Other people were not examined.

Page 11837

1 Q. Did they look like they were beaten, look

2 like they were --

3 A. I didn't gain that impression. These were

4 people who were brought in from the zone of war

5 operations.

6 MR. MORAN: With the help of the usher, I

7 would like the Doctor to see Defendants' Exhibit, I

8 believe it's, D6/3.

9 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: What is that about?

10 MR. MORAN: Your Honour, that is -- well,

11 that's that. That's a baseball bat.

12 Q. Doctor, have you ever seen a thing like that

13 before?

14 A. Only on television.

15 Q. Doctor, presume with me for a minute that

16 someone were hit by a large man, a strong man down the

17 left side of his body, this whole left side of his body

18 with one of those, something that looks like that.

19 Suppose that that beating lasted for about 30 minutes,

20 and by count there were about 200 strikes of that

21 baseball bat, hard strikes, against the left side of

22 that person's body. In all reasonable medical

23 probability, what kind of injuries would that person

24 suffer?

25 A. He would have very, very serious injuries.

Page 11838

1 Q. Thank you very much, doctor.

2 MR. MORAN: Your Honour, I pass the witness.


4 cross-examination? Yes.

5 Cross-examined by Ms. Boler:

6 Q. Good morning, Dr. Hadzihuseinovic. I have

7 about ten questions to ask you. And let me start by,

8 the Court is aware, but I will tell you that I am new

9 to the Defence team for Esad Landzo and this is my

10 first time to stand here and to ask anybody any

11 questions.

12 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: You may proceed with the

13 questions.

14 MS. BOLER: Okay. So that if I am

15 interrupted by anyone to tell me to slow down or to do

16 this or that, you will understand.

17 Q. Let me first ask you, in response to an

18 earlier question just now by Tom Moran, you stated that

19 there was a shortage of medication during the war,

20 correct?

21 A. Yes, that is correct.

22 Q. Specifically, was there a shortage of

23 medication available to treat people with breathing

24 problems, such as asthma or bronchitis?

25 A. There was a general shortage of all

Page 11839

1 medication, including those you mentioned.

2 Q. So it would be difficult or sometimes

3 impossible to provide sufficient medication for people

4 who suffer from breathing problems, such as asthma and

5 bronchitis?

6 A. There weren't sufficient supplies of such

7 medicines for people to be able to have reserves.

8 Q. Thank you. We visited for a short time

9 yesterday, didn't we?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. And do you recall that I asked you a few

12 questions about the procedure for obtaining medical

13 records from the Konjic Hospital?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. And yesterday you told me that the hospital

16 keeps the original copy of each medical record,

17 correct?

18 A. Yes, indeed. Of all persons who came over to

19 be treated in the institution.

20 Q. So it's true that before the war, or during

21 the war, that a record was made and signed by the

22 treating doctor, correct?

23 A. Yes, that is what we call medical

24 documentation, it is part of the duties of a physician,

25 an integral part of his duties.

Page 11840

1 Q. You testified yesterday that during the war,

2 there were sometimes periods as long as twenty days

3 that you worked straight through without seeing your

4 family?

5 A. Yes, there were times like that.

6 Q. Even in these most difficult times, was it

7 still the procedure of doctors at the Konjic Hospital

8 to make and sign medical records for the patients that

9 you treated?

10 A. Absolutely. We always followed the

11 principles of medical doctrine, which made it necessary

12 for us to keep records of everyone coming into the

13 hospital and of all the procedures we performed on

14 them. There could be some abbreviation of this, but

15 generally everyone who would come to the hospital would

16 be put on record.

17 Q. Were these records preserved during the war

18 or were some of them damaged or destroyed?

19 A. You must ask this question of those who run

20 that institution.

21 Q. I understand, thank you. Dr.

22 Hadzihuseinovic, if a representative for a person who

23 had been treated at the Konjic hospital comes to the

24 hospital to request a medical record, is it your

25 understanding, although this is not your specific area,

Page 11841

1 that the hospital will provide a copy of that medical

2 record?

3 A. Absolutely.

4 Q. And the hospital will keep the original

5 medical record, correct?

6 A. Yes, and you would be given a copy.

7 Q. So if a representative for a person who had

8 been treated at the Konjic Hospital before the war or

9 during the war, went to the hospital recently to

10 request a copy of that person's medical record, and if

11 that person was told that the medical, that the

12 original medical record had already been provided to

13 someone else, would that be unusual?

14 A. It wouldn't have been unusual because, in

15 certain cases, the original document can be issued to

16 another person. For example, to the court, but this --

17 a receipt had to be signed whereby the document had to

18 be returned within a given period of time. But there

19 must be a document to that effect.

20 Q. So it's your understanding that although the

21 general practice was not to provide the original record

22 to someone who requested a record, although that's

23 not --

24 A. That was not general practice.

25 Q. But your understanding is that sometimes

Page 11842

1 those originals had been provided to this court,

2 correct?

3 A. Yes, that possibility did exist, but only on

4 the basis of a receipt, where it is strictly and

5 clearly stated that the document had to be returned.

6 Q. Okay. So, if this is a case, that the

7 original record is no longer at the Konjic Hospital,

8 then it is your understanding that the proper procedure

9 would be something in the hospital's records saying, we

10 provided the original to a representative from the

11 court, or whomever that might be, but that is so noted

12 in the record, correct?

13 A. If they did so, then they should have -- if

14 they, if they gave the original, then this must have

15 been written down somewhere or documented in some

16 fashion.

17 Q. Is it also your understanding that the

18 hospital would keep a copy of such record for which

19 they had given the original to a representative of the

20 court?

21 A. No, that wasn't the practice. That wasn't

22 usual.

23 Q. Were you, yourself, asked recently by a

24 representative of the Defence team for Esad Landzo to

25 help locate some medical records?

Page 11843

1 A. I don't remember someone having requested

2 this of me personally, perhaps requests have been made

3 in address to the institution where I am employed.

4 Because I am not the manager, the director of the

5 hospital, so it is not really possible to make such

6 requests on me. There is the hospital administration

7 in charge of that. There is the senior nurse. So,

8 this can be only requested from the hospital's

9 administration. And, at this particular moment, I have

10 no function in the management of the hospital.

11 Q. I understand your response to my question,

12 but you were telling me that you do not remember

13 whether or not a representative from Esad Landzo's

14 Defence team, as you say Konjic is a small town, you

15 all have known each other for years, but it is your

16 testimony that you do not remember or recall someone

17 specifically asking you for help?

18 A. No, you have just reminded me, yes, it may

19 have happened, perhaps, about twenty days ago, or a

20 month ago, I think a lawyer came, his name was Asim

21 Suta, I believe. I think that he came and seemed to be

22 interested in some documents. Now you have just

23 reminded me. I think Asim Suta came to my surgery

24 while I was on duty. And as far as I could help him, I

25 directed him to the hospital administration. It's a

Page 11844

1 good thing that you reminded me because I had forgotten

2 all about it.

3 Q. But you were not able to help him obtain

4 these records, correct?

5 A. No, I just advised him and gave him some

6 advice to whom to address for such documents, to whom

7 in the institution to address because I was not

8 competent on -- in the matter, even I was not competent

9 for issuing such records because there's the director,

10 the deputy director, the senior nurse, the whole

11 administration deals with such matters, but I

12 instructed him what to do and whom to address.

13 Q. Thank you. And do you recall specifically

14 that these -- this request for records was for the

15 medical records of Mirko Babic?

16 A. Yes, I think that he mentioned that.

17 Q. And to the best of your knowledge, these

18 records -- the hospital was not able to provide these

19 records to Mr. Asim Suta, correct?

20 JUDGE JAN: He says he doesn't know. He

21 personally directed him to the proper authority and the

22 procedure for obtaining a copy, but he doesn't know.

23 MS. BOLER: That was my last question, Your

24 Honours. Thank you.

25 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Thank you very much.

Page 11845

1 The cross-examination from the prosecution.

2 Cross-examined by Mr. Niemann.

3 Q. Dr. Hadzihuseinovic, I want to ask you some

4 questions about that period of time leading up to the

5 outbreak of the conflict in the Municipality of Konjic,

6 if I may start there. It's true, is it not that

7 there's -- there was a direct link or connection

8 between the SDS party and the JNA and this was

9 evidenced back as early as 1991?

10 A. What is your specific question?

11 Q. Well, that is my question.

12 A. Were there relations between the SDS and the

13 JNA?

14 Q. Yes.

15 A. Yes, such relations did exist.

16 Q. They were close relations, were they not?

17 A. That's what you said, I don't know how strong

18 these relations actually were.

19 Q. I see. Why do you say that? Why do you say

20 that there was relations between the SDS and the JNA?

21 A. There was a plan on the level of Yugoslavia

22 as a whole, former Yugoslavia as a whole. And such

23 relations were, in fact, promoted via the political

24 leadership of the Socialist Federal Republic of

25 Yugoslavia, the military -- its military force, the JNA

Page 11846

1 and the SDS of Bosnia-Herzegovina. These are very well

2 known facts known to everyone. This can be confirmed

3 by a number of documents.

4 Q. Yes. I am just interested in your opinion

5 about these matters. I think you would say, wouldn't

6 you, that one of the factors that inclines you to the

7 view that there was a connection or direct connection

8 between the SDS and the JNA resolved about the

9 distribution of weapons, in the Municipality of Konjic,

10 to members of the Serb community?

11 A. I am familiar with those links between the

12 Serb Democratic Party of Konjic and the offices of

13 the JNA in our municipality. These relations were

14 well-known.

15 Q. And, in fact, the distribution of weapons to

16 the Serbs was to be distinguished from distribution to

17 anyone else, in the sense that, it was only to the

18 Serb people and the SDS, that the JNA issued these

19 weapons in 1991? And I am talking about the

20 Municipality of Konjic.

21 A. I think this was a question of secret army.

22 Q. It's something that you came to know?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Yes, unlike the members of the Muslim

25 community, the members of the Serb community were

Page 11847

1 much better prepared for conflict, were they not, in

2 the Municipality of Konjic in 1991/92?

3 A. The legal authorities were not really

4 preparing for a conflict. We were actually functioning

5 under the normal conditions. We were just carrying out

6 out the orders of the competent state authorities and

7 act in accordance with them. We had institutions in

8 our system and we functioned within that framework.

9 There was no need to act beyond the frameworks of that

10 system.

11 Q. Of course not. But the contrast I am putting

12 to you and asking you to agree with, is that unlike the

13 Muslim community, the Serb community through the

14 auspices of the JNA and SDS, were preparing themselves

15 for a military conflict, especially in latter 1991,

16 early '92?

17 MS. RESIDOVIC: I object Your Honour, the

18 witness spoke about the legal organs and populations,

19 he was not referring to the Muslims and the Prosecutor

20 is asking questions about that segment of the

21 population.

22 JUDGE JAN: The experts have spoken.

23 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Answer the question as

24 best as he can.

25 THE WITNESS: The Serb people had the same

Page 11848

1 obligations as the Croatian and the Bosnian people.

2 They had the same duties and obligations as all the

3 rest of the populations in all terms, but perhaps they

4 did not carry out those obligations.

5 JUDGE JAN: The learned counsel is asking

6 about the position on the ground. The Serbs were

7 better prepared than the Muslim community because of

8 the help provided by the Serbs.

9 THE WITNESS: I can only speak about the

10 facts, about those facts which I am familiar with. I,

11 in fact, was in charge of a legal body and I was not,

12 in fact, competent to deal with other matters.


14 Q. I am not raising anything controversial at

15 all, I am relying upon a statement that you gave to the

16 office of the Prosecutor, which I am more than happy to

17 show you if you want to, that you gave on the 31st of

18 March, '96. I am not trying to be confrontational, I

19 am asking to you to agree with these are the things you

20 said or not?

21 A. I made two statements to the office of the

22 prosecution; one in '96 and one in '97.

23 Q. And that's the one in 1996, when you speak of

24 the direct link between the SDS and the JNA, that's

25 merely what I am referring to. The point of the matter

Page 11849

1 is though, doctor, isn't it, that whilst the Serb

2 community had prepared itself for a military conflict,

3 that could not be said of the, in particular, the

4 Muslim community at that time in early '92, 1992?

5 A. Your interpretation of these communities

6 really does not -- is not right. They were not

7 separate communities, they were citizens of the

8 Municipality of Konjic and the citizens of

9 Bosnia-Herzegovina.

10 Q. Well, are you denying that there was a

11 differentiation based on political perspective and

12 views? I mean surely you're not suggesting that you

13 didn't have the SDS party and the SDA party and the HDZ

14 party, surely you're not suggesting that?

15 A. No, you said that.

16 Q. Do you deny that?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. You deny --


20 THE WITNESS: Those were political

21 organisation, which were taking part in the elections

22 and they took part in the work of the municipal

23 assembly of Konjic, depending on how they fared at the

24 elections. These are well known facts.


Page 11850

1 Q. Surely you don't deny for one second that

2 these political institutions; namely, the SDS, the SDA

3 and HDZ, represented different ethnic or national

4 groups; namely, the Muslims, the Croats and the Serbs,

5 come on, you're not suggesting that? Surely that's not

6 the case?

7 A. That's in your terms. They represented

8 different political interests, that is a fact.

9 Q. And the political interests that they

10 represented was based on national or ethnic groups, was

11 it not?

12 A. No, it was possible that members of the

13 parties belonged to different nationalities in the

14 statute of any of those parties. He did not say that

15 members of other ethnic groups or nationalities could

16 not belong to that party.

17 Q. That wasn't my question.

18 JUDGE JAN: You have enough evidence of the

19 expert on that, why are you pursuing this? He has a

20 different perspective because Bosnia is a multi-ethnic

21 society and probably he's talking about in that...

22 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Actually the witness is

23 talking about his own perception of the society.

24 JUDGE JAN: Yes.

25 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: And I think you could

Page 11851

1 allow him to hold those views.


3 Q. The municipal assembly of the municipality,

4 when conflict ultimately came, had to take urgent and

5 rapid steps to prepare itself for the conflict, did it

6 not?

7 A. The war presidency of Konjic, and I was

8 president at the time, followed, kept track of the

9 activities of all the bodies of Bosnia-Herzegovina.

10 And in keeping with the instructions of the legitimate

11 institutions of the system, acted in line with them.

12 In my statement of yesterday, I said that from April

13 17th, the representatives of the SDS, the Serb

14 Democratic Party and the Municipality of Konjic,

15 abandoned, departed from all the legally elected

16 bodies. They did not accept the mobilisation on behalf

17 of the legal structures of the authorities. And to my

18 mind from then on, they were rebels. That is to say,

19 people who stood against their own state.

20 Q. Yes, and of course that's your perspective

21 and one you're entitled to hold. But the issue is that

22 the municipality, and ultimately and subsequently, the

23 war presidency, had to prepare itself rapidly and

24 urgently for war? A yes or no answer will suffice.

25 A. That is not my view. These were activities

Page 11852

1 which were envisaged by the constitution and the law.

2 And they were designed for the war presidency and the

3 war presidency undertook all steps and measures

4 according to its constitutional competencies.

5 Therefore, all the things envisioned by the

6 constitution for the body I belonged to and envisioned

7 by the decisions of the presidency of the State of

8 Bosnia-Herzegovina, the government of

9 Bosnia-Herzegovina within the system of defence, that

10 is what we carried out. These were legal and

11 legitimate actions and measures.

12 Q. Did I suggest to you in my question that you

13 did anything that was illegal or not in accordance with

14 the Constitution? My question relates to the urgency

15 and unexpected nature of the preparations that had to

16 take place. Now surely you're not disputing this?

17 A. No, I didn't say that, but I understand your

18 position. But please don't make me tell you what you

19 want me to tell you. I am a witness under oath and I

20 am going to speak about the facts and about the things

21 I know.

22 Q. I'd be grateful if you just answer my

23 questions and not concern yourself with what you think

24 that I am trying to get you to say. If my questions

25 are unclear, please ask me and I'll clarify them.

Page 11853

1 Now --

2 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: I think we'll stop here

3 and assemble at 2.30 for you to continue your

4 cross-examination.

5 --- Luncheon recess taken at 1.00 p.m.





















Page 11854

1 --- Upon commencing at 2.35 p.m.

2 (The witness entered court)

3 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Kindly remind the

4 witness he's still under oath.

5 THE REGISTRAR: I remind you, sir, that you

6 are still under oath.

7 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Mr. Niemann, you may

8 proceed.


10 Q. Doctor, earlier this morning, we were talking

11 about links between the JNA, the SDS and the Serb

12 people in the municipality of Konjic. I think you

13 would cite as another example of these links between

14 the JNA and the SDS, the fact that, at least on one

15 occasion, the official vehicle of the municipality was

16 used to take up SDS members and a member of the JNA to

17 Pale. Do you remember that incident?

18 A. Just make a correction. Actually, these were

19 members of the Serb Democratic Party and not of the

20 Serb people because there were quite a number of

21 Serbs who were loyal citizens and who respected the

22 legal institutions. Let me give you an example of a

23 man who put to me questions at the assembly session --

24 JUDGE JAN: Was the transport of your

25 municipality used to take SDS people to Palez? This is

Page 11855

1 the question.

2 A. Yes, I remember that event. It is a vehicle

3 of the municipal assembly of Konjic and an employee of

4 the municipality called Aleksandar Coric, who was a

5 member of the executive in the municipality, a member

6 of the government, without anybody's knowledge,

7 illegally allowed this vehicle to be used by

8 representatives of the Serb Democratic Party who,

9 using that vehicle, went to Palez and on that occasion

10 had a traffic accident when a Security Major Ranko

11 Kuljanin was injured.

12 JUDGE JAN: Are you interested in all these

13 details?

14 MR. NIEMANN: I'm not interested in these

15 details. "Yes" would have been quite sufficient.

16 Q. Doctor, in the early part of 1992, was there

17 an order given, that was issued from Sarajevo, relating

18 to the handing over of ammunition and military

19 factories to the JNA?

20 A. Could you explain the question, who sent the

21 order?

22 Q. Yes. Well, I will ask you that. An order

23 came from Sarajevo, did it not, an order to reconcile

24 the growing tension that the JNA should be given the

25 military facilities that produced ammunition in the

Page 11856

1 Konjic municipality. That happened, didn't it?

2 A. The Yugoslav People's Army or, rather, the

3 Federal Secretariat for National Defence which

4 controlled all the ammunition factories in the former

5 Yugoslavia sought to have the ammunition and the

6 material from those factories transferred to areas

7 under the control of the JNA. In that sense,

8 negotiations were conducted with the competent bodies

9 of the Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina in Sarajevo.

10 Consequent to that, a demand came from Sarajevo that

11 ammunition and the equipment for the manufacture of

12 ammunition, should be handed over to the Yugoslav

13 People's Army.

14 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: See how long it took you

15 to answer "yes," whether an order came from Sarajevo

16 that the ammunition and this factory should be handed

17 over to the JNA. It took you so long.

18 A. We didn't receive orders in the sense of

19 orders. There was regular communication between the

20 various legal bodies of power.


22 Q. But this order from the republican government

23 in Sarajevo was ignored, wasn't it, by the community of

24 Konjic or it wasn't followed?

25 A. As of the 6th of April, the Republic of

Page 11857

1 Bosnia and Herzegovina was internationally recognised

2 and, therefore, all factories and all property was the

3 property of the state of Bosnia-Herzegovina. The legal

4 authorities in Konjic felt that to surrender those

5 material and technical means would weaken the defence

6 of Konjic.

7 JUDGE JAN: So it did not obey the order.

8 A. And it did not act according to that

9 recommendation, according to that recommendation.


11 Q. As a consequence of that, you would agree

12 with me, would you not, that the municipality of Konjic

13 assumed responsibility for this military ammunition and

14 equipment?

15 JUDGE JAN: On behalf of the republic. Make

16 the question complete on behalf of the republic because

17 his earlier answer said a new state had come into

18 existence.

19 MR. NIEMANN: A new government hadn't come

20 into existence.

21 JUDGE JAN: A new state had come into

22 existence.

23 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: By the time the

24 instruction had come, a new government had come into

25 existence.

Page 11858


2 Q. Well, the municipality of Konjic assumed

3 responsibility, whether it be on behalf of the

4 republican government or on behalf of the JNA. It

5 assumed responsibility, didn't it?

6 A. It was our duty to place all such facilities

7 under the control of the legal authorities. That was

8 our obligation and duty and that is what we did.

9 Q. When you say "our," who do you mean by our

10 duty?

11 A. The duty of the legal organs of authority.

12 Q. What was that in relation to this decision?

13 Was the legal organ of authority in relation to this

14 decision?

15 A. What period are you referring to?

16 Q. I'm specifically talking about the refusal to

17 hand over the ammunition and equipment to the JNA which

18 you received an order to do, or a direction to do, or a

19 recommendation?

20 A. That factory and that ammunition was no

21 longer the property of the JNA, because at that moment

22 the JNA, for us, was a foreign army and it was

23 illegally on our territory after international

24 recognition, and there was no reason why we should

25 surrender that to them.

Page 11859

1 Q. You would be surprised, Doctor, that I would

2 agree with you on that. Nevertheless, who it was when

3 you speak of "us" and "our" responsibility?

4 A. The legal organs of authority in the

5 municipality of Konjic.

6 Q. Would you tell me, please, what they are?

7 A. Let me tell you very clearly. Until the 17th

8 of April, 1992, it was the municipal assembly of

9 Konjic, the council for national defence of the

10 municipality and the crisis staff of the municipality.

11 After the 17th of April, 1992, it became the war

12 presidency of the municipality as a substitute for the

13 municipal assembly. Those were the legal organs.

14 Q. But this happened well before -- well, it

15 happened before the 17th of April, so it was the

16 municipality, wasn't it?

17 JUDGE JAN: The municipal assembly.


19 Q. The municipal assembly?

20 A. Even before the 17th of April, we had legal

21 organs. As of the 6th of April, in view of the fact

22 that the war had started, according to the municipal

23 statute and according to the constitution, a crisis

24 staff was formed and a council for national defence

25 which functioned until the 17th of April, 1992. After

Page 11860

1 the last assembly meeting, the war presidency of the

2 municipality started to operate.

3 Q. Doctor, when the military activities started

4 in and around the Konjic municipality, the military

5 activity especially perpetrated by the

6 Serb paramilitary or the JNA was designed to cut Konjic

7 off from Sarajevo, in particular, wasn't it?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. And to isolate Konjic?

10 A. In the final analysis to occupy it.

11 Q. At that time, Sarajevo was itself preoccupied

12 with the conflict that it had on its hands; you would

13 agree with that?

14 A. Yes, yes.

15 Q. You would agree with me, wouldn't you, that

16 when confronted with this military conflict that ensued

17 in the early part of 1992, April of 1992, there was

18 much to be done to adjust the municipal structures and

19 bodies in order to prepare itself for the anticipated

20 and ensuing conflict; would you agree with that?

21 A. The legal bodies of the municipality of

22 Konjic, even under conditions of peace, had plans which

23 envisaged how those legal bodies would behave in

24 emergencies such as a situation of imminent threat of

25 war or war. That is what the legal authorities did in

Page 11861

1 accordance with their competencies.

2 Q. Did those plans envisage and deal as their

3 topic with a situation, whereby the JNA would turn on

4 its own people?

5 A. They assumed any kind of emergency.

6 Q. At the outset of the conflict, I take it that

7 you would consider the HVO to be part of the armed

8 forces of Bosnia-Herzegovina?

9 A. Is that a question?

10 Q. Yes, yes.

11 A. I wouldn't quite consider it because, the HVO

12 as a structure was not envisaged by positive, legal

13 regulations of Bosnia-Herzegovina in times of peace.

14 But, in view of the fact that this was a special form

15 of organisation, of a part of the people of Konjic

16 municipality, and in view of the fact that they had the

17 same goals, in the sense of defending the municipality

18 of Konjic, the legal bodies of the Republic of

19 Bosnia-Herzegovina recognised them as an integral part

20 of the armed forces.

21 Q. And when were they so recognised?

22 A. I don't know.

23 Q. Well, if I put it to you that it wasn't until

24 sometime later that the HVO was accepted as a force

25 that could work with the army of Bosnia-Herzegovina,

Page 11862

1 you wouldn't disagree with that, would you? Perhaps

2 I'll withdraw that.

3 Initially, the HVO was accepted as part of

4 the defence forces, at least so far as the Konjic

5 municipality was concerned, because they supported your

6 aims in the conflict, didn't they? You had the same

7 aims.

8 JUDGE JAN: This is what he has already said,

9 they were joining us in defending Konjic so they were

10 treated as legal organs.

11 MR. NIEMANN: Thank you, Your Honour.

12 Q. So it didn't matter about their foundation,

13 legal foundation or whether they were a valid, legal

14 force within the constitution of Bosnia-Herzegovina or

15 within the municipality of Konjic, did it? It was

16 because they supported your military aims.

17 A. No, it was very important. It did matter

18 because all their activities were in accordance with

19 the activities of the legal institutions. And the

20 armed forces of Konjic municipality, as is well-known

21 and as I already said yesterday, already on May the

22 12th set up a joint command of the armed forces of

23 Konjic municipality comprising the TO, the HVO and the

24 ministry of the interior.

25 Q. So if the HVO was, in fact, technically and a

Page 11863

1 legal force, in the sense that it didn't have the force

2 of law or support of law in either the constitution or

3 the laws of Bosnia-Herzegovina, then you would have had

4 nothing to do with it, notwithstanding the fact that it

5 would have participated in the war with you; is that

6 your position?

7 A. I've already said and I'm repeating that

8 because of our common aims and because members of the

9 HVO were citizens of Bosnia-Herzegovina, therefore,

10 there was no reason not to establish such a

11 relationship. They were not an illegal formation.

12 Q. But it had nothing to do with the legality,

13 did it; isn't that true?

14 A. They were not envisaged in the plans and

15 documents. They did not exist actually, as a form

16 before the war, but they emerged as a self-organised

17 military force of the Croatian people and they joined

18 in the struggle against the aggression, against the

19 internationally recognised Republic of

20 Bosnia-Herzegovina, and there is nothing unclear about

21 that.

22 Q. Would you have agreed with this force had it

23 attacked you? If the HVO would have attacked you,

24 would you have agreed that it was a legal entity within

25 Bosnia-Herzegovina?

Page 11864

1 JUDGE JAN: Is that really relevant? You

2 see, in a situation like that, in a situation where the

3 municipal defence is situated, they would even go to

4 the Devil to seek his help. They would not bother

5 about the legal position. That was the force available

6 to them to help them, so they joined them. They

7 treated them as a legal force.

8 MR. NIEMANN: The witness agrees absolutely,

9 and that's exactly the point I was trying to get to,

10 Your Honour. I thank you for your assistance.

11 A. Our lives were in jeopardy. We were

12 defending our biological existence.

13 Q. Absolutely. And you would have done anything

14 to defend yourselves, wouldn't you?

15 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: I suppose that has been

16 taken for granted all along.

17 MR. NIEMANN: Perhaps it shouldn't have been,

18 Your Honours, with respect, because the whole argument

19 of this defence is --

20 A. Not quite everything, not quite anything.


22 Q. Sir, the primary responsibility was not to

23 sort out the fine points of law, when it comes to

24 defending the municipality of Konjic, was it? It was

25 to defend the municipality of Konjic.

Page 11865

1 MR. MORAN: Your Honour, I'm going to object

2 to this whole line of questioning. It's, I think,

3 pretty irrelevant. I don't see how any of this has

4 anything to do with what happened in Celebici or what

5 didn't happen in Celebici.

6 MS. RESIDOVIC: Your Honour, I join in the

7 objection because the witness already said that it was

8 a constitutional obligation of every citizen to defend

9 the country, and the HVO members were also citizens of

10 Konjic.

11 MR. NIEMANN: I assure Your Honours that the

12 relevance of this line of cross-examination will become

13 crystal clear in due course, and I can assure you, that

14 in no way, is it irrelevant.

15 Q. Doctor, because of the unusual situation of

16 not having the JNA there and having the Territorial

17 Defence and the HVO, it became necessary to set up a

18 joint command, didn't it?

19 A. Yes, in order to coordinate our joint

20 defence.

21 Q. And, in part, that was as a consequence of

22 the fact that the HVO's command was separate from that

23 of the TO?

24 A. I have already said, I said yesterday and I

25 think today too that these three parts of the armed

Page 11866

1 forces, the three elements comprising the armed forces

2 of the Konjic Municipality, had a different chains of

3 command: members of the MUP were accountable to the

4 ministry of the interior; members of the TO were under

5 the subordination of the TO staff and HVO members were

6 subordinated to their command.

7 Q. Now the war presidency were concerned, were

8 they not, to ensure that maximum efficiency was

9 achieved by the joint efforts of both the TO and the

10 HVO?

11 A. The municipal presidency had no jurisdiction

12 in terms of the control and command over the armed

13 forces. I said that already yesterday. But as a body,

14 it is -- had a series of responsibilities within the

15 system of defence, but never within the system of

16 control and command.

17 Q. I didn't ask you anything about command and

18 control and at all, doctor. My question was, that the

19 war presidency was concerned to ensure that you -- you

20 achieved the maximum efficiency out of both of these

21 forces? It's a yes/no answer --

22 A. Our aim was to ensure the maximum efficiency

23 of defence.

24 Q. Now, that, the achievement of that efficiency

25 was a little difficult at times because of differences

Page 11867

1 that developed between the HVO and the TO?

2 A. When the joint command of the armed forces of

3 the Municipality of Konjic was formed, I think there

4 were no major differences because the commander of the

5 joint command came from the TO and the chief of staff

6 of the command came from the HVO. So there were no

7 significant differences at the beginning. They emerged

8 later.

9 Q. And that may so and I don't quarrel with you

10 about that. But it's true, is it not, that you saw the

11 need to consolidate how these military forces were to

12 operate? And when I say "you", I am talking of the war

13 presidency.

14 A. Representatives of the armed forces insisted

15 on this and it was their job to do that. And the

16 presidency could only receive reports about those

17 activities by representatives of the armed forces.

18 Q. Well, are you suggesting that it wasn't a

19 concern or a responsibility of the war presidency, this

20 issue of bringing together the two forces?

21 A. It was not the concrete job of the war

22 presidency, but the war presidency was briefed on all

23 the activities that they engaged in, but only in the

24 sense of briefings, information.

25 Q. Now, the decision was made to appoint Zejnil

Page 11868

1 Delalic as a coordinator, that's right, wasn't it, by

2 the war presidency?

3 A. On the 18th of May, yes.

4 Q. And that was a decision, I think, that was

5 made by the war presidency?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. And by you, the actual document of

8 appointment was made by you?

9 A. The actual document, I didn't make it, but

10 the appropriate services made it. We already noted

11 that yesterday.

12 Q. So you signed it, though?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Now, his function was to coordinate between

15 the war presidency and between the HVO and the TO,

16 wasn't it?

17 A. And the ministry of the interior. The three

18 segments of the armed forces.

19 Q. Thank you, yes. And the object of that

20 exercise was to achieve maximum efficiency, was it not,

21 in the military forces that you had available to you at

22 the time, for the defence of the Municipality of

23 Konjic?

24 A. The aim was to achieve maximum efficiency in

25 the relationship between the war presidency and the

Page 11869

1 armed forces.

2 Q. Yes. I'll accept that. But don't you agree

3 with me that by achieving maximum efficiency in the

4 relationship, one would hope there would flow from

5 that, maximum efficiency of effort?

6 A. I wouldn't agree entirely, perhaps we have

7 different views of this matter.

8 Q. Perhaps we'll disagree on that. Now, doctor,

9 the achievement of efficiency between, or communication

10 between the three groups, the TO, the HVO and the MUP,

11 you would agree, wouldn't you, that the ultimate

12 objective of that was your defence, the defence of your

13 municipality?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Thank you. And you would agree with me,

16 wouldn't you, that the defence of the municipality is

17 primarily a military matter?

18 A. The war presidency as a civilian body had a

19 whole series of responsibilities within the system of

20 defence, so I wouldn't agree with you entirely, even

21 though it was not a military body, it still had a

22 series of responsibilities within the sphere of defence

23 as stipulated by the constitution and the law. But the

24 actual combat activities, the control and command, was

25 carried out by the responsible military bodies. That

Page 11870

1 part of their activities depended, in some areas, on

2 the activities of the economic staff and other bodies

3 which were purely civilian. And, therefore, also on

4 the activities of the war presidency and its

5 coordinator who were civilian persons.

6 Q. But the reality is, isn't it, doctor, that

7 there was a sharing of responsibility in relation to

8 the military effort of defence of the municipality?

9 Now surely that's not an extraordinary proposition?

10 A. Everybody was discharging his

11 responsibilities in accordance with his jurisdictions.

12 Q. Well, we can only assume that. You're not

13 saying that you know that as a fact, when you use the

14 word "everybody", are you?

15 A. All the persons who held certain positions

16 had certain competencies and they acted accordingly at

17 a given moment.

18 Q. And at times some people who didn't have

19 those competencies did other things which didn't fall

20 within them, but if it suited the defence of the

21 municipality, that wouldn't have been extraordinary or

22 unacceptable, would it?

23 JUDGE JAN: Give him some definite instance,

24 your question is too general for him to answer. Give

25 him some instance. The way you put the question is too

Page 11871

1 general for him to answer.


3 Q. If the City of Konjic, and this is a

4 hypothetical example, if the City of Konjic was under

5 attack and action needed to be taken to put out a fire,

6 if people from a nearby building came out and attempted

7 to put out the fire rather than the fire brigade, that

8 wouldn't be regarded as extraordinary or exceptional,

9 would it?

10 MS. RESIDOVIC: I object to these

11 hypothetical questions to the witness.

12 MR. NIEMANN: We had a series of them earlier

13 Your Honour, and there seemed to be no objection to

14 those.

15 JUDGE JAN: That wouldn't be outside

16 neighbours coming in and putting out a fire, would not

17 be something not expected of the neighbours, so that

18 would hardly be a good example to put to the witness.

19 MR. NIEMANN: I apologise for my example,

20 Your Honour, it's the best I could think of at the

21 time.

22 Q. If, for example, members of the war

23 presidency, or officials appointed by the war

24 presidency, became involved in the exchange of

25 prisoners in Celebici, we're dealing with prisoners in

Page 11872

1 Celebici; that wouldn't necessarily be an extraordinary

2 circumstance in the time, would it?

3 A. I wouldn't agree with you.

4 Q. Thank you. Now, doctor, when you first

5 spoke -- well, I think it's the first time you spoke to

6 the officer of the Prosecutor, Mr. D'Hooge, in the 31st

7 of April, 1996. On that occasion, you say you didn't

8 know who appointed Zejnil Delalic as coordinator, why

9 did you say that at that time?

10 A. I will be very clear, my first interview in

11 1996 was ad hoc and a long time had elapsed since the

12 events in question and if there is any collision or

13 imprecision, it could be attributed to the long time

14 that had passed since those events. But I made another

15 statement to your investigator and he reminded me of

16 those things in that second interview, so that I

17 explained all those facts if anything was unclear to

18 the investigator of this honourable Tribunal. On the

19 other hand, if anyone casts any doubt as to what I am

20 saying today, after all I am under oath, there are

21 additional documents that I have submitted to this

22 Tribunal, such as the videotape of the assembly meeting

23 and me speaking at that meeting and all the conclusions

24 reached. And they may be placed at the court's

25 disposal. So that I think that in my second interview,

Page 11873

1 I explained all the facts that you are referring to.

2 Q. The only reason I ask the question that it's

3 somewhat extraordinary, that someone that you yourself

4 appointed is not something that you would know about

5 when questioned.

6 A. It is not unusual. You see, I have gone

7 through a very difficult period. You must understand

8 that a long time has gone by and I spoke to the

9 investigator ad hoc. I was eager to assist this

10 honourable Tribunal as I am now. And I think that I

11 clarified in my second statement all the facts that you

12 are now referring to.

13 Q. Yes, well, at the same time, as you said you

14 didn't know who appointed him you said, and I'll quote

15 directly: "The function of coordinator must be a

16 military function?"

17 A. I am not a soldier, you see, I am a doctor by

18 profession. Therefore, I may have been imprecise,

19 which could have been attributable either to a

20 misunderstanding of the question or possibly an error

21 in the translation. I think that in many sentences,

22 there was imprecision in the translation. But I think

23 there's no doubt that I clarified all those points in

24 my second statement, given to the same gentleman that

25 is to this Tribunal. Allow me, after all I refreshed

Page 11874

1 my memory, I haven't been prepared.

2 Q. Did you check that? Did you go away and

3 check whether or not, in fact, it was merely a

4 translation error? Because you audio recorded the

5 interview yourself, didn't you, on your own personal

6 equipment?

7 A. No, I didn't consider it to be important to

8 check. I had the oral promise of the investigator that

9 he would send me copies. I didn't receive them, but I

10 think that isn't important because I explained

11 everything in my second testimony and here I am now.

12 In any case, I think this testimony today is the most

13 important one because I am testifying under oath.

14 Those statements at the time were not of such a nature.

15 Q. Now, the second interview that you gave to

16 the Prosecutor's officer, again, Mr. D'Hooge and on

17 this occasion, Mr. McLeod, were you corrected the

18 question of the appointment of Zejnil Delalic as

19 coordinator, and corrected your previous statement.

20 That was given on the 4th of February, 1997 and after

21 you had spoken to Ms. Residovic, isn't it?

22 A. Yes, I spoke briefly. I told the

23 investigator when he asked me whether I had

24 communicated with any one.

25 Q. And you told him that you had spoken to Ms.

Page 11875

1 Residovic?

2 A. Yes, I had a short interview, oral interview.

3 Q. And it was then that you emphasised the fact

4 that the function of the coordinator was a civilian one

5 and not a military one?

6 A. Yes, absolutely so.

7 Q. Now why was Zejnil Delalic appointed as the

8 coordinator? Why did you appoint him as coordinator?

9 You and the war presidency?

10 THE WITNESS: I think that I explained that

11 yesterday.

12 Q. It was also Zejnil Delalic was also

13 authorised to, in a logistics capacity, wasn't he?

14 A. Yes, he discharged certain duties in

15 procuring supplies, material, technical supplies, for

16 the needs of the defence.

17 Q. And that included heavy military supplies,

18 and when I use the word "heavy", I mean in terms of

19 ammunitions and methods by which you could wage war,

20 not only soft materials, such as clothes and food?

21 JUDGE JAN: --

22 MR. NIEMANN: I didn't hear Your Honour.

23 JUDGE JAN: He also provided certain

24 communications.

25 MR. NIEMANN: And communications, do you

Page 11876

1 agree?

2 A. Yes, these were communications, equipment,

3 uniform, but I would disagree with you and I don't know

4 what the term heavy military supplies implies, but as

5 far as ammunition is concerned, there was no need for

6 it at the time because the factory of ammunitions in

7 Konjic was put under the control of the legal

8 authorities of Konjic and after a certain time, we also

9 normally activated the production there for the needs

10 of the state of Bosnia-Herzegovina.

11 MR. NIEMANN: I am not very expert in weapons

12 and matters of that nature --

13 A. Neither am I.

14 Q. So if he purchased military equipment -- I'll

15 have to come back to that. Do you know whether or not

16 he purchased military equipment such as rocket

17 launchers and guns and things of that nature, when he

18 was in Croatia or elsewhere?

19 A. Mr. Delalic was authorised by a special

20 authorisation, which I mentioned before, he was

21 appointed coordinator. I explained all of this

22 yesterday. And his trip to Zagreb, aimed at providing,

23 procuring those military supplies. I think I was very

24 clear yesterday and this was the special authorisation

25 which I reviewed yesterday. But all those activities

Page 11877

1 stemmed from the conclusions of the war presidency,

2 regarding supplies and distribution of supplies and

3 equipment. And they did not relate to anything else.

4 Q. Now, perhaps you might look at the document,

5 which is prosecution Exhibit 99-7-4. So it's not a

6 prosecution exhibit, I apologise -- okay, 99-7-4.

7 A. That was the document I saw yesterday.

8 Q. Yes. You said that it did not give you any

9 military function. That's your evidence, isn't it?

10 A. Well, you can see everything from the

11 preamble of that document. This is an authorisation

12 based on the decision by the war presidency regarding

13 equipping and supplying and distribution of this

14 material and nothing more.

15 Q. It says in paragraph 3, does it not, "All

16 kinds of agreements on possible joint actions of troops

17 from other areas and theatres of operation in our area

18 and theatre of operation and vice versa," doesn't it?

19 A. Absolutely not and every point can be

20 interpreted exclusively in the light of the preamble of

21 that document, and this is my interpretation and I

22 don't interpret it in any other way.

23 Q. Fine. But will you agree with me, and I'm

24 not asking you to agree with whatever interpretation

25 you think I'm putting on it, but merely to agree with

Page 11878

1 me, that it says in paragraph 3: "All kinds of

2 agreements on possible joint actions of troops from

3 other areas and theatres of operations in our area and

4 theatre of operation and vice versa"?

5 MS. RESIDOVIC: Objection. The witness has

6 just said that he interprets this in light of the

7 preamble.

8 MR. NIEMANN: Well, Your Honours, I press the

9 question. I'm simply asking whether he agrees with me

10 that that's what the document says.

11 A. Everything that figures in the document stems

12 from the preamble of the document and that is all I

13 have to say.


15 Q. Well, I will ask you to do something for me.

16 Will you please read paragraph 3?

17 A. "All forms of agreement about possible joint

18 actions of troops from other zones and theatres of

19 operations in other areas and on our own and vice

20 versa."

21 Q. Now, that is a task that is given to him by

22 the war presidency, is it not?

23 A. Only in accordance with the preamble of the

24 document in question.

25 Q. And it's a task that was given to him, both

Page 11879

1 by yourself and by Captain Ramic?

2 A. I would not agree with you there.

3 Q. It wasn't given to you by Ramic?

4 A. The signature of Captain Ramic, I explained

5 by the fact that Mr. Delalic was a military -- and as a

6 civilian, he could not leave, actually the area,

7 without permission. The orders he received were not

8 from Captain Ramic.

9 MS. RESIDOVIC: He was actually a military,

10 so please correct that error. The transcript says that

11 Mr. Delalic was a soldier but what it should say is he

12 was of military age. I apologise, but in English I see

13 again the word "soldier" and that is not something that

14 the witness has said. The witness said that he was

15 subject to conscription in the sense that he could be

16 mobilised for military service.


18 Q. Now, Mr. Delalic also provided his house in

19 Konjic, in support of the military effort of Konjic to

20 defend itself, didn't he?

21 A. Mr. Delalic, as far as I know, did give part

22 of his house to accommodate the municipal

23 communications staff headquarters.

24 Q. And that communications function assisted the

25 military effort, did it not?

Page 11880

1 A. It was the municipal communications centre of

2 the municipal TO staff, and Mr. Delalic just allowed

3 them to use a certain part of his private home.

4 Q. Now, the document we looked at a moment ago,

5 and in your evidence you've spoken of Mr. Delalic

6 having a logistics function. A logistics function is a

7 military function, isn't it?

8 A. All people who obtained any resources and who

9 assisted the defence, according to you, would then be

10 soldiers, but that is not true. Mr. Delalic at that

11 point in time was a civilian. But through his

12 activities, he managed to procure certain resources for

13 the needs of the defence, but those activities do not

14 make him a soldier. Such activities were engaged in by

15 other people too. Other people were given such

16 authorisations too. It was not only for Mr. Delalic.

17 All the people who could be of assistance at the time,

18 would be given by us this kind of authorisation as

19 evidence so that they didn't have to be soldiers and

20 that was the case here.

21 Q. Now, considering you appointed Mr. Delalic to

22 the position of coordinator, I take it that that would

23 make you his superior, would it?

24 A. Mr. Delalic was a coordinator and this is a

25 function that we have clearly explained yesterday. He

Page 11881

1 was a man, a mediator, a communicator between the joint

2 command of the armed forces and the war presidency or,

3 rather, the economic staff or certain parts of that

4 body. He would reflect the needs of these bodies and

5 nothing more than that. In any event, those were his

6 duties which didn't place him in a position of a person

7 who could independently make decisions.

8 Q. Should I take that as a "yes" or a "no"?

9 A. He was not independent in decision making.

10 Q. That wasn't my question. My question was:

11 Seeing as you appointed him as coordinator, did that

12 make you his superior?

13 A. Not in the sense that you imply, but it makes

14 him accountable for the tasks that he received from the

15 war presidency, and he had to submit appropriate

16 reports to the body that appointed him.

17 Q. Well, who was his superior?

18 A. If it was the economic staff, if he was given

19 a task by the economic staff as a civilian body, then

20 he would be accountable to the economic staff. And if

21 he received a task from the civil defence, then he

22 would report to that body. Therefore, the war

23 presidency, as a body, had a wide range of segments

24 headed by various people.

25 Q. And the economic staff and the civilian

Page 11882

1 defence all came under the war presidency, did they

2 not?

3 A. The civil defence and the economic staff were

4 component parts in the structure of the municipal

5 assembly or the war presidency as civilian bodies.

6 Q. You were president of the war presidency and

7 prior to that president of the municipal assembly?

8 A. You're using a term that was customary at the

9 time. The real name of the body --

10 JUDGE JAN: For example, Delalic has

11 appointed Ms. Residovic as his counsel. Does she

12 become his superior? He says he was just acting as a

13 go-between, acting as a link between the two

14 organisations. There's no question of any

15 superiority. This is what his position is. He submits

16 reports, but the bodies to which he submits these

17 reports is not his superior. As I said, Delalic has

18 appointed Madam Residovic as his counsel. She doesn't

19 become his subordinate.

20 MR. NIEMANN: Your Honour, in the

21 jurisdiction that I was formerly practising law,

22 whenever I acted for a client, I had to obey their

23 instructions.

24 JUDGE JAN: But there was no relationship of

25 superiority and subordination.

Page 11883

1 MR. NIEMANN: I'm merely getting to the point

2 as to who gave him instructions and who he had to

3 report to. I got part of the question, but I'll move

4 on, Your Honours.

5 Q. Now, you said that Mr. Delalic had to make

6 reports to you, in his position as coordinator; is that

7 right?

8 A. In any event, to the war presidency or to the

9 body that gave him an assignment, not to me personally,

10 but, yes, if he was given an assignment by a particular

11 department, then he would report to it.

12 Q. And what reports did he make?

13 A. Sometimes these were oral reports and

14 sometimes in writing.

15 Q. Can you tell us what the subject matter of

16 them were? I know it's been a long time ago, but if

17 you could --

18 A. Only dealing with what his task was, the

19 specific task.

20 Q. I'm asking you whether you recall any of the

21 subject matters of the reports that he made, what he

22 reported to you?

23 A. Yes, I remember on one occasion there was a

24 large delivery of flour coming from Croatia.

25 Q. And he told you about that?

Page 11884

1 A. Yes, because these supplies would be coming

2 in.

3 Q. What of the military equipment and that that

4 he had acquired in his logistics capacity, did he tell

5 you about that?

6 A. The joint command of the armed forces did

7 have a department called assistant commander for

8 logistics, and Mr. Kevric was in charge of this

9 department. So any materials that arrived in Konjic,

10 if they were a part of the military equipment or

11 communications equipment, had to be taken over by the

12 responsible military bodies. And Delalic would just

13 say that they had arrived, but he would not, under any

14 circumstances, be responsible.

15 Q. Did he ever communicate with you about taking

16 receipt of logistics material that he had acquired?

17 I'm speaking particularly about the period of time

18 when --

19 A. No, that was not necessary because there were

20 people and bodies that were responsible for this. And

21 the war presidency is a civilian body, so it was not

22 within its terms of reference to enter into such

23 activities.

24 MR. O'SULLIVAN: Your Honour, there may be a

25 question of a translation or interpretation. Just a

Page 11885

1 moment, please. LiveNote, page 81, line 11, I believe

2 I heard the witness say "Kevric" and it came across

3 "Krevic." Perhaps that could be confirmed.

4 A. Yes, Kevric. He was the responsible person.


6 Q. Doctor, do you know a person by the name of

7 Mr. Sinik, and I'll spell that because I may not have

8 pronounced it properly, S-I-N-I-K?

9 A. I think you mispronounced it. It doesn't

10 mean anything, what you have just said.

11 Q. That's why I've spelled it. I'll spell it

12 slowly again.

13 A. In our language, it doesn't fit somehow.

14 Q. The English, and I may have it wrong,

15 S-I-N-I-K?

16 A. I'm afraid I can't understand.

17 Q. I think his name is "Joko ^ Sinik." Do you

18 know a person by that name?

19 A. No.

20 Q. He's a person who claims to have known you

21 for 20 years, but you don't know him?

22 A. I really cannot decipher. I cannot

23 recollect. I cannot find him.

24 Q. He apparently had a weekend house which was

25 close to your house. Does that help you?

Page 11886

1 A. I do not have a house at all. I have an

2 apartment in Konjic.

3 Q. Doctor, would you agree that, on occasions,

4 the war presidency and the Territorial Defence gave

5 joint orders?

6 A. Could you clarify the question, please?

7 Q. Certainly. Were there occasions when joint

8 orders were issued by both the war presidency and the

9 Territorial Defence or the commander of the Territorial

10 Defence?

11 A. The war presidency could only issue orders as

12 envisaged by law, and if the signature of a commander

13 appeared on the document, as I just explained, using

14 the previous document, that was just the sign of,

15 perhaps, permission to men of military age to be able

16 to leave the municipality, nothing more.

17 Q. Well, perhaps you might look at a document

18 for me, Defence Exhibit D144 Va/18. I do apologise. I

19 will repeat that. It's Exhibit D144 Va/8. Just look

20 at this document for me, would you, please? Is that

21 your signature that appears at the --

22 A. Yes, this is very clear. I'll be glad to

23 explain it and why it is like this. Actually, the war

24 presidency, within the framework of its competencies,

25 set up Radio Konjic. In view of the fact that we were

Page 11887

1 at war, it was quite normal, customary for information

2 to be censored.

3 Q. Just to assist everyone in the court, could

4 you put the English version of it on the overhead

5 projector and then everyone can see what we're talking

6 about. Just put the English version there for me,

7 please. Just put it on the projector. I'm sorry to

8 have interrupted you, Doctor. Please continue.

9 A. The document has to do with the activities of

10 Radio Konjic, and Radio Konjic is an institution

11 founded by the war presidency. And in view of its

12 significance in the system of defence, certain

13 information could not be broadcast over the same radio

14 and that is why this paper was signed by the commander

15 on the censorship of any reports of a military nature

16 that could be used by the enemy. That is how I

17 explained this, so nothing more than that. It has to

18 do with the functioning of Radio Konjic as an

19 information media, as a media institution.

20 Q. Sir, having said all of that, you would agree

21 with me that it's a joint order?

22 A. No, it's not a joint order. It is a document

23 providing for the possibility for some kind of control

24 over information of a military nature and which, if

25 broadcast, would harm the defence of Konjic.

Page 11888

1 Q. What's the word in the middle of the -- will

2 you tell me what it says in the very middle of the top

3 of the page under the heading where it says "Republic

4 of Bosnia-Herzegovina Konjic Municipality War

5 Presidium," and then there's a word typed in the middle

6 of the page. What is that word?

7 A. Which word? I don't see it.

8 Q. Do you see the word at the top of the page

9 that says "Order"?

10 A. It doesn't say "I order." It says, "It is

11 ordered," and the order refers to a civilian

12 institution, Radio Konjic.

13 Q. My question was whether it was an order. It

14 says that it's an order. It looks like an order. It

15 acts like an order. Surely it's an order.

16 A. I explained yesterday we had the right to

17 give orders to bodies which we founded, that is,

18 administrative bodies or other institutions that we had

19 founded and radio Konjic was an institution founded by

20 the war presidency, and according to the municipal

21 statute, article 66, we were entitled to do so.

22 MS. RESIDOVIC: I apologise for a minor

23 intervention. I think the Bosnian version should be

24 put on ELMO too. I don't see the heading, the word

25 "order," that is seen in the translation. There may

Page 11889

1 be an error in the translation.

2 JUDGE JAN: How would you translate that word

3 in English, that Bosnian word in English? How would

4 you translate that word, that Bosnian word into

5 English?

6 MS. RESIDOVIC: I don't know, but the text in

7 Bosnian does not contain that word and I just wish to

8 draw your attention to this. I am not a translator.

9 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: I don't think it really

10 matters. It depends on the institution issuing the

11 order. If it's a civilian institution issuing the

12 order, it doesn't have the same effect as a military

13 institution. They are not the same.

14 MR. NIEMANN: I tender that document, Your

15 Honour, for the truth of its contents, having it been

16 recognised.

17 MS. RESIDOVIC: The witness did not recognise

18 it, he recognised the document without the heading.

19 JUDGE JAN: That is his document.

20 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: He signed it.

21 JUDGE JAN: That is his document.

22 MS. RESIDOVIC: Yes, but addressed to a

23 civilian body.

24 MS. RESIDOVIC: Yes, it is his document, but

25 he didn't recognise the English translation in which

Page 11890

1 the heading is "Order". In the Bosnian version there's

2 no such heading. That is the only difference. Because

3 this heading doesn't exist in the Bosnian version.

4 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: So tender the Bosnian

5 version.

6 MR. NIEMANN: I tender both, Your Honour, and

7 note that it's not my translation, it's Madam

8 Residovic's translation.

9 Q. Now, doctor, were you aware that, in addition

10 to authorisations given to Mr. Delalic by you and by

11 Mr. Ramic, he also had authorisation to conclude

12 certain agreements based on authorisations that he

13 received directly from the ministry of defence in

14 Sarajevo?

15 A. I wouldn't agree with your statement. He

16 received authorisations from the war presidency and not

17 from Mr. Ramic. He could be given just permission from

18 Ramic to go away, being subject to conscription. At

19 the same time, I must say that I do know that he had

20 such authorisations, some such authorisations, what in

21 particular, I don't know.

22 Q. And he -- really the point of my question was

23 not about Mr. Ramic, but whether or not he had

24 authorisations from the ministry of defence in

25 Sarajevo, that you knew about?

Page 11891

1 JUDGE JAN: He says yes.

2 MR. NIEMANN: I am not sure what he said yes

3 to, Your Honour.

4 JUDGE JAN: He said he was authorised, but he

5 doesn't know in respect of what matters. That's what

6 he said.

7 THE WITNESS: The question is unclear. I

8 really don't know what you're asking me.

9 MR. NIEMANN: Well, it may resolve itself

10 this way.

11 Q. Would you look at Exhibit P-235. Now,

12 doctor, just looking at that particular document, and

13 perhaps you might put the English version on the

14 overhead projector so their Honours can see and the

15 Defence can see what we're talking about. Would you do

16 that for me? Now that's a document signed by Minister

17 Jerko Doko, is that right?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. And it's issued by the ministry of defence in

20 Sarajevo?

21 A. Yes, what's the problem?

22 Q. The point I am asking you, were you aware of

23 this authorisation that was given to Mr. Delalic?

24 A. The war presidency was not a body that was

25 required to send out such information.

Page 11892

1 Q. All I am asking you is, when you read this

2 document, you see that it gives Mr. Delalic

3 authorisation, by the ministry of defence in Sarajevo,

4 to conclude agreements on mutual exchanges of

5 equipment, et cetera, do you see that? Now all I am

6 asking you is, were you aware of this authorisation in

7 your capacity as president of the war presidency? A

8 simple yes or no will do.

9 A. Well, at the moment it was issued, I was not

10 aware of this because it may not address the body of

11 which I was in charge, so there was no reason that I

12 had to know this.

13 Q. Were you subsequently informed about it?

14 A. No. It's the first time I see this document.

15 Q. I see. So, it's true then, obviously, that

16 Mr. Delalic may have had authorisations and powers that

17 you, yourself, did not know about, even at the time or

18 even now, indeed?

19 A. I would not agree with you, with that

20 statement. I am only sure that Mr. Delalic was a

21 civilian.

22 JUDGE JAN: -- Change his status.

23 MR. NIEMANN: I wouldn't press it, Your

24 Honour.

25 Q. Now I think you testified to the fact that

Page 11893

1 the war presidency formed a commission which had the

2 responsibility of settling matters of people who were

3 killed or injured or missing, did you testify as to

4 that?

5 JUDGE JAN: He's referring to that document.

6 THE WITNESS: Yes, such a commission did

7 exist.


9 Q. And Jasna Dzumhur was appointed as the

10 chairperson?

11 A. Vice-president of that commission, yes.

12 Q. And apart from its duties and obligations, it

13 was required to keep records of its work?

14 A. Yes, they were directly accountable to the

15 same body, state body, a central state body in

16 Sarajevo. And occasionally they would submit reports

17 about their work and about the activities of the war

18 presidency. But the superior body was in Sarajevo.

19 Q. And what was the superior body in Sarajevo?

20 A. I think it still exists, chaired by Mr.

21 Masovic, it is a state body dealing with missing

22 persons, I think. I think that is the case.

23 Q. What's that called? Do you know it's name?

24 It doesn't matter if you don't, but if you know it's

25 name it might help us?

Page 11894

1 A. I don't know the details, but I think it is

2 the commission in Sarajevo chaired by Mr. Masovic. I

3 think it was -- it's referred to as a state commission

4 for the missing persons or something to that effect.

5 In any case, it did exist.

6 Q. Is it a military body or a civilian body?

7 A. No, no, it is a civilian body, not a military

8 body.

9 Q. Now you said a moment ago, a few minutes ago,

10 that that sometimes you received reports from this

11 commission?

12 A. Because Jasna Dzumhur was an official of the

13 municipal assembly of Konjic.

14 Q. Did you ever receive any reports on people

15 that had died in Celebici?

16 A. I don't remember having received such

17 reports, but if there were such reports, the servers of

18 -- there was a special service dealing with this and

19 it was able to communicate with a service of persons

20 on -- actual funeral services.

21 Q. Well, did you receive any reports from the

22 funeral services?

23 A. The funeral service was in charge of this and

24 I think that all the institutions were, in some way,

25 under the obligation to submit reports on their work to

Page 11895

1 the municipal assembly of Konjic, or, in other words,

2 to the war presidency, because these were all basically

3 civilian bodies. And the commission on funeral

4 services, I think it was part of a company of an

5 enterprise. I don't know if it was the public

6 utilities enterprise, it was a service within that

7 company, which dealt with the burial of persons, of

8 dead persons.

9 Q. And do you remember receiving reports on

10 people who had been buried, who died in Celebici camp?

11 A. I know that, I know that some people had

12 died, but I cannot remember the details at the moment.

13 Q. Can you remember how it was said that they

14 died? What they died of?

15 A. As far as I can remember, and on the basis of

16 the information I have had, that those were people who

17 suffered from serious chronicle diseases, diabetes,

18 heart diseases.

19 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: I think we'll have to

20 have a break here and return at 4.30. Now when we

21 return at 4.30, we intend to have a status conference

22 on the problems of -- because signing the witnesses and

23 the duplications we've been having on witness' lists.

24 And we'll deal with that at 4.30.

25 MS. RESIDOVIC: Your Honour, should the

Page 11896

1 witness wait until after the status conference or can

2 he be discharged? Your Honours, should the witness

3 wait until after the status conference or should he be

4 discharged for the moment?

5 JUDGE JAN: The witness can wait to be

6 discharged.

7 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Cross-examination is not

8 finished. Wait to be discharged.

9 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 4:02

10 p.m. to be reconvened on Friday, the 22nd day

11 of May, 1998 at 10.00 a.m.