Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 11897

1 --- Upon commencing at 10.08 a.m.

2 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Good morning, ladies and

3 gentlemen. May we have the appearances, please?

4 MR. NIEMANN: If Your Honours please, my name

5 is Niemann. I appear with my colleagues Ms. McHenry,

6 Mr. Turone and Ms. Udo for the Prosecution, Your

7 Honours.

8 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Can we have the

9 appearances for the Defence, please?

10 MS. RESIDOVIC: Good morning, Your Honours.

11 I'm Edina Residovic, Defence counsel for Mr. Zejnil

12 Delalic. Mr. Delalic is also represented by my

13 colleague Mr. Eugene O'Sullivan, a professor from

14 Canada. Thank you.

15 MR. OLUJIC: Good morning, Your Honours, I'm

16 Zelko Olujic, attorney from Croatia, Defence counsel

17 for Mr. Zdravko Mucic, along with my colleague Tomislav

18 Kuzmanovic, attorney from the United States.

19 MR. KARABDIC: Good morning, Your Honours.

20 I'm Salih Karabdic, attorney from Sarajevo along with

21 Thomas Moran, attorney from Houston, Texas. We

22 represent Mr. Hazim Delalic.

23 MS. McMURREY: Your Honours, I'm Cynthia

24 McMurrey, and along with my colleague Ms. Nancy Boler,

25 we represent Esad Landzo.

Page 11898

1 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Kindly bring in the

2 witness.

3 (The witness entered court)

4 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Please remind him he's

5 still under oath.

6 THE REGISTRAR: I remind you, sir, that you

7 are still under oath.

8 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: You may proceed,

9 please.


11 Cross-examined by Mr. Niemann

12 Q. Good morning, Doctor.

13 A. Good morning.

14 Q. Doctor, I just want to start off this morning

15 by showing you a couple of documents and asking you

16 whether or not it's your signature that's on the bottom

17 of them. I don't need you to go into any explanation.

18 It's just a question of saying yes or no, it isn't so.

19 Perhaps, the first one I would ask you to

20 look at is Exhibit P-144 VA-6. Would you have a look

21 at that for me, please? There's a number of documents

22 that appear there. While you're looking at that one,

23 perhaps Madam Registrar may get out the other document

24 for me which is Exhibit D-144 V-A/25.

25 Doctor, the documents that you've now been

Page 11899

1 show, P-144, there's a bundle of documents there.

2 Firstly, one is a covering letter, if I might call it

3 that; secondly, the minutes of a meeting or a

4 decision. Do you see at the foot of both of those

5 documents a seal and a signature that appears there?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Are you able to confirm whether or not that

8 is your signature?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Are these documents familiar to you?

11 JUDGE JAN: What are these documents?

12 MR. NIEMANN: They are documents that were

13 tendered in support of the expert witness but were

14 admitted for limited purposes only, Your Honour, in

15 support of his testimony.

16 JUDGE JAN: But what do they show?

17 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, Your Honour.

18 JUDGE JAN: Just give a short description.

19 MR. NIEMANN: Yes, Your Honours. These are

20 documents relating to decisions of the war presidency

21 and relate to, in particular, the appointment.

22 JUDGE JAN: Yes, I recall, but you ask him

23 under what circumstances he made these appointments,

24 because his position has been throughout that the war

25 presidency had nothing to do with the defence

Page 11900

1 organisation of the TO.

2 MR. NIEMANN: Yes. I'll come to that, Your

3 Honours. I merely just wish to tender them at this

4 stage.

5 Q. The second document that you were shown,

6 Doctor, that's D-144 V-A/25. That's an authorisation,

7 is it not? Do you see the signature and seal that

8 appears at the bottom of that document? For Your

9 Honours benefit --

10 A. It is rather illegible, I mean, the copy is.

11 Q. Yes, it is a bad copy. I'm just asking you

12 if you recognise the signature?

13 A. Yes.

14 MR. NIEMANN: Your Honours, relying upon the

15 English version that I've been provided, again, it's a

16 Defence document provided in support, this relates to

17 an authorisation for the supply of uniforms and other

18 military means and equipment. I tender those

19 documents, if Your Honours please, for the truth of

20 their contents.

21 Q. Doctor, yesterday in the course of my

22 cross-examination, I asked you about the issue of the

23 supply of military equipment that was engaged in by

24 the -- well, I think I may have misspoke indeed about

25 the war presidency in the early part of the war. The

Page 11901

1 document I had in mind, but couldn't find at the time,

2 was Exhibit P-66, and I'd just ask you to look at that

3 document, in order to correct any error that I may have

4 made. I note that it's a document of the 12th of

5 April, 1992 and is, in fact, the crisis staff of the

6 assembly. That document also bears your signature, I

7 think, does it, Doctor?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. I know it relates to an earlier period of

10 time than the war presidency, but it concerns itself

11 with the supply of equipment, does it not?

12 A. This is a request.

13 Q. Yes, of course. Now, in relation to the

14 crisis staff, Doctor, when was the crisis staff first

15 established in the Konjic municipality; can you recall?

16 A. Yesterday, I think I clarified it amply.

17 Even before the war, that is, during the peace time,

18 there were bodies which were to have been appointed in

19 the extraordinary circumstances, and the extraordinary

20 circumstances could be a large disasters, immediate

21 threat of war and these --

22 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Let's not go into the

23 history of how it could be appointed. When was the

24 crisis staff appointed?

25 A. The crisis staff was established immediately

Page 11902

1 after the immediate threat of war was declared, and its

2 establishment was provided for not only in Konjic but

3 in all municipalities in such cases. This would have

4 been the crisis staff and the council for people's

5 defence. I think I clarified that yesterday and they

6 functioned until 17 April.

7 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: We didn't want the

8 history of how it was established.

9 A. I believe that I have stated all this very

10 clearly yesterday.


12 Q. This exhibit, and perhaps you might put the

13 English version on the overhead projector for their

14 Honours to see. In this exhibit that you have in front

15 of you, Exhibit 66, it says on the second page,

16 particularly, Mr. Usher, you might put the second page

17 on after showing the first page; it makes reference to

18 you liaising with the Grude headquarters. What did you

19 mean by that?

20 A. I think I had stated clearly that one of the

21 components of the defence forces of Konjic was the

22 HVO. The Croatian Defence Council had its own superior

23 command, and this command in terms of issuing commands,

24 orders, was in Grude and that's all.

25 Q. Thank you. I'm finished with that document,

Page 11903

1 thank you, Doctor. Yesterday we had some discussion

2 about the question of orders, and I showed you one

3 document in relation to orders being issued by the war

4 presidency. I think that you made some distinction

5 about those matters, but I'd now ask you to look at a

6 number of documents that were supplied by the Defence

7 in this case. The first one is Exhibit D-144 V-A/12.

8 Again, Your Honours, for your benefit, this

9 is an order by -- purports to be an order by the

10 president of the presidency relating to civil defence

11 and staff economy, in relation to the necessary number

12 of blankets for persons detained in Celebici prison.

13 Now, do you notice that that document is

14 headed "Order"?

15 A. Yes, I do.

16 Q. Thank you. I ask you to look at another

17 document, if you would for me, and that is

18 Exhibit D-144/V-A13.

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Now, do you see that document and this,

21 again, Your Honours, is a decision of the war

22 presidency purported to be signed by the witness, and

23 it relates --

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. -- to the health centre. Do you notice that

Page 11904

1 that is headed "Decision"?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Again, that's your signature and seal that

4 appears at the foot of that document?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Thank you. Now, would you look at the next

7 document that I show you? That's Exhibit D-144

8 V-A-14. This relates to the confiscation of

9 registration plates of vehicles, which are to be placed

10 at the disposal of the war presidency, should they be

11 confiscated; is that right? It's an order that has got

12 headed "Order"?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Again, that bears your signature, does it

15 not, and the seal?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. It's sent to the police station but,

18 secondly, to the command, submitted to secondly -- the

19 first reference is to the police station and then the

20 command. You have to say "yes," Doctor, otherwise it

21 can't be taken down in the transcript.

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. I would like you to look at another document

24 which is D-144 V-A/15. Again, this is a document

25 headed "Order" and it provides that all members of the

Page 11905

1 defence forces of Konjic TO and HVO are forbidden to

2 use vehicles, a particular type of vehicles. Doctor,

3 that again bears your signature, does it not, and your

4 seal?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Again, that is sent to the Electra

7 Herzegovina Company and then secondly to the command?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Now, finally, would you look at the next

10 document which is shown to you, which is D-144 V-A/16.

11 This is again an order and, I think, signed by yourself

12 with your seal; is that right?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Its address provides that the military staff

15 of the defence forces of the Konjic municipality is

16 obliged to ensure unique consumption of crude oil, et

17 cetera. I don't need to go into details. Again,

18 that's submitted to the command.

19 Doctor, looking at all these documents that

20 I've now shown you, isn't it a fact that when you are

21 issuing directives, as it were, to civilian bodies,

22 such as is shown in the second document that you looked

23 at, I think it was the second document, the document

24 D-144 V-A/13, it's interesting, is it not, that the

25 places to whom it is directed are all civilian bodies?

Page 11906

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. But when a document is headed "Order," at

3 least one of the bodies that it is directed to is the

4 military command?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. It's true, isn't it, that there is a

7 distinction between directions and decisions -- I

8 should say "decisions." There's a distinction between

9 decisions and orders, isn't there?

10 A. Only in terms of the words themselves, not in

11 terms of the essence.

12 Q. Thank you, Doctor. I'm finished with those

13 documents.

14 MR. NIEMANN: I tender them all, Your

15 Honour. The doctor has identified the signature and

16 seal.

17 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: They are admitted.


19 Q. Doctor, I understand that yesterday in your

20 evidence in chief, you testified that it was quite

21 clear what were the competencies of the various

22 entities in the Konjic municipality at the relevant

23 time during 1992; did you say something or something

24 to that effect yesterday?

25 A. Yes.

Page 11907

1 Q. Who was the competent entity for the Celebici

2 prison during the period May to November of 1992?

3 A. It certainly was not the war presidency or

4 any of the bodies appointed by it. As far as the

5 competencies for prisons are concerned, even before the

6 war and during the war, it was only the police bodies

7 and the investigating bodies that could have that and

8 not civilian ones.

9 Q. You mentioned in your evidence an occasion

10 when some Arab journalists wanted to visit the Celebici

11 prison and other facilities; do you recall that?

12 A. Yes, I do recall.

13 Q. Was that a request only made on one occasion

14 or was there more than one occasion when Arab

15 journalists wanted to visit Celebici, that you can

16 recall?

17 A. As far as I can recall, and yesterday I think

18 I was very clear, I remember that this group of

19 journalists stayed in my mind very vividly because --

20 let me repeat this -- they not only wanted to talk to

21 me in my office, but they also wanted to visit the

22 front lines and the prison in Celebici. And then this

23 is why I recall it so vividly. But, there were many

24 visits of Croatian journalists to Konjic as I said

25 yesterday, but this one stayed in my mind because this

Page 11908

1 group of journalists wanted to visit the front lines,

2 which was very dangerous, as well as the prison at

3 Celebici.

4 Q. Now, when they came, you, I think, it's your

5 evidence that you approached the TO for their authority

6 for them to, for these journalists, Arab journalists,

7 to visit the prison, was that right?

8 A. No, that is not correct. I said that they

9 came unannounced to the war presidency and that they

10 requested what I have just said. And among other

11 things, we talked about Konjic, about the living

12 conditions there and, in addition to that, they asked

13 for these two things. And since I was not competent

14 for either of these two things which they requested, I

15 directed them to the bodies which were competent for

16 this.

17 Q. Well, what was the body competent for

18 Celebici that you directed them to?

19 A. This is what I said a minute ago. These were

20 the competent police and military investigating

21 bodies. It was not in my authority as part of the body

22 which I represented, so I was not -- I had no interest

23 in this.

24 Q. Didn't you say yesterday that you directed

25 them to the TO? You didn't mention anything about the

Page 11909

1 police. You said they were directed to the TO. That

2 was your testimony yesterday.

3 A. Yes, I directed them to the structures who

4 potentially could help them to fulfil this wish of

5 theirs.

6 Q. Well, I put it to you that you said yesterday

7 that you only mentioned that you directed them to the

8 TO, and you only mentioned the TO, and that was --

9 A. If this is what you say and if this is what

10 has been taken down, I have nothing against that.

11 Q. So, at least, at that stage, you must have

12 thought that the TO had authority over Celebici?

13 A. Not Territorial Defence, as a territorial

14 defence, but a body of it may be a military

15 investigating body or a police body because those are

16 the bodies who should control this, rather than

17 civilian ones. And I believe this is all very clear.

18 There's nothing unclear about it.

19 Q. Now I think you also testified in the course

20 of your evidence-in-chief, that the war presidency had

21 no authority to appoint members to the military

22 investigative committee or to give them any

23 assignments, was that your testimony?

24 A. Absolutely, absolutely.

25 Q. They could not do that. When you're

Page 11910

1 referring to that, I just wanted a clarification. When

2 you're referring to the military investigative

3 committee in relation to Celebici, or were you making

4 some sort of general comment?

5 A. I am not sure I understand what you're --

6 what you're asking me. I don't know about this

7 military investigative commission, I believe that it is

8 clear what body this is.

9 Q. And it's something that the war presidency

10 had nothing to do with, is that a fair statement? If

11 it's not, please correct me.

12 A. Absolutely, absolutely. It never appointed

13 such a commission, nor did it have any competencies in

14 that regard.

15 Q. Would you look at Exhibit P-125 for me

16 please. May I see that document? I am not sure that

17 it's the one I am referring to.

18 JUDGE JAN: This document probably referred

19 to the commission for finding out the persons killed or

20 persons --

21 MR. NIEMANN: It's not the document I am

22 referring to, Your Honour. Is that P-125?

23 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, that's Document 125,

24 Prosecutor document.

25 MR. NIEMANN: I'll come back to that, Your

Page 11911

1 Honour.

2 Q. Doctor, excuse me a moment, there seems to be

3 some confusion with the documents, so I'll come back to

4 it. So if you'll just put that aside for now, thank

5 you. Doctor, during the course of 1992, did you ever

6 have any contact or receive any reports from Mr. Pavo

7 Mucic about the Celebici prison?

8 A. No, absolutely not.

9 Q. Did you have any contact with him at all,

10 that you can recall?

11 A. No. I saw Pavo Mucic only once and he was

12 wearing civilian clothes and he was in the Celebici

13 barracks compound and he had some kind of a car there,

14 I think it had foreign registration plates and he used

15 it. On the second occasion, when I saw him, was when I

16 visited this complex during the swearing in ceremony

17 and I remember well that he had a camera at that time

18 and he was taping something. So, these were the only

19 occasions on which I ever saw or had any contact with

20 this man.

21 Q. So, if Mr. Mucic had said to an investigator

22 from the Tribunal that, that before and after he was

23 appointed camp commander, he always tried to keep -- to

24 help them, always informed the town headquarters, the

25 chief, the Mayor of Konjic, Rusmir Hadzihuseinovic, and

Page 11912

1 Zejnil Delalic; you would say that's not true?

2 A. I am here under oath and I can only tell the

3 truth. I said what you have asked me and I have

4 nothing else to add to it.

5 Q. Okay, I'll move on. Now the document I did

6 want you to look at was P-169, and I apologise to the

7 Registrar for that. I had asked you some questions a

8 moment ago about the role or the lack of role by the

9 war presidency in the investigative body and then I

10 wanted to show you this document. Perhaps the English

11 version can be put on the overhead projector.

12 Doctor, do you notice that at the top of this

13 particular document, it's headed, "Republic of

14 Bosnia-Herzegovina, Municipality of Konjic, War

15 Presidency of the Municipality of Konjic, Investigative

16 Body of the War Presidency"?

17 A. I have seen this document in its entirety.

18 It has been shown to me and I will tell you exactly

19 what I think of it. I see it now for the first time.

20 I have never seen it before in my life. This document,

21 at the bottom has a seal, which is not a seal of the

22 body of which I was a -- the president. And it

23 completely excludes the war presidency and any of its

24 body in terms of the authorship. And as far as the

25 heading of the document is concerned, you should ask

Page 11913

1 the person who drafted it why he put it there. Any

2 document that was coming out of the war presidency had

3 to have a seal affixed to it and this is not the right

4 seal.

5 Q. I see. Now, if -- tell us about seals,

6 Doctor. If a seal appears on something and a signature

7 above it, does one give high regard to the seal or to

8 the signature?

9 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: The witness is

10 complaining about the right seal, not necessarily any

11 seal.

12 MR. NIEMANN: Well, he may be, Your Honour.

13 This is operating, I might ask him about position in

14 the municipality.

15 Q. Is it the seal that determines the issue if

16 there's any question of doubt?

17 A. Absolutely. Absolutely. If there is no seal

18 -- and only the war presidency had the seal. And if

19 there is any other seal, he was made somewhere else.

20 This document was not drafted in the war presidency or

21 in any of its bodies and this is what I affirm,

22 absolutely.

23 Q. Certainly. So if there was -- I just want to

24 clarify this point. So if there was any confusion by

25 -- in determining the competency of the person who

Page 11914

1 appeared to sign a document, that confusion would be

2 resolved by reference to the seal itself? Am I right

3 in saying that? Is that your position?

4 A. No. That is what you have stated, that is

5 not what I wanted to say. I said everything that I had

6 to say on this document.

7 Q. Well, are you prepared to help us with this,

8 Doctor, because you know more about what operated in

9 Konjic Municipality at that relevant time than we did

10 and I am asking you about the effective seals of

11 various bodies -- let me finish, Doctor -- the

12 effective seals by various bodies in the municipality,

13 in that particular period of time. And the question

14 that I am asking you is, if there is confusion, can

15 that confusion be resolved by looking at the particular

16 seal that's attached?

17 MS. RESIDOVIC: Your Honours, the witness has

18 already stated, specifically, the answer.

19 THE WITNESS: You are talking about different

20 seals. There was no other seal at the war presidency

21 in Konjic. There was only one single seal. Any

22 document coming out of the war presidency or any of its

23 organs, would have to have had the war presidency seal

24 affixed to it. And this is not such a seal. So I say

25 that this document was not drafted, was not compiled in

Page 11915

1 any -- in the war presidency or any of its organs and I

2 think that this makes it entirely clear.


4 Q. Okay. Now, can I have, Madam Registrar,

5 Exhibits P-210 and P-213? Just to look at and then I

6 want to show them to the witness. Just look at these

7 two documents that I now show to you. And the matter

8 that interests me most is the seals that are placed at

9 the bottom of them. And when you've had a good look at

10 them, would you put them on the ELMO for me, please.

11 On this occasion, could we have the original document

12 on the ELMO. Once the Doctor has looked at them.

13 Okay. Can they be put on the ELMO, please? Original

14 version, just one at a time. That's fine. Leave that

15 one there for a moment until it comes up on the

16 screen.

17 Doctor, do you notice there appears two

18 signatures there? One appears to be a document signed

19 Zejnil Delalic and it's headed, "Coordinator". And the

20 signature that immediately appears, appears to be

21 signed by the TO commander, is that true?

22 A. Yes, I explained that yesterday.

23 Q. Yes, just bear with me, Doctor. And you see

24 that there are two seals attached, do you not?

25 A. Yes.

Page 11916

1 Q. Now, am I right in saying that both of those

2 seals are the seals of the Konjic Territorial Defence?

3 A. Yes, that is beyond question.

4 MS. RESIDOVIC: I object, I don't know if

5 these are authentic documents and I don't know how this

6 witness can pronounce his opinion about these documents

7 because his signature is not on them.


9 Q. Isn't it true that the -- that they are two

10 seals that you recognise as being the seals of the

11 Konjic Territorial Defence and they are attached next

12 to each of the signatures?

13 MS. RESIDOVIC: I repeat my objection.

14 JUDGE JAN: He's only been asked to identify

15 these seals, which he can do if he knows what those

16 seals were.

17 MS. RESIDOVIC: I don't see what bearing this

18 has. Given the knowledge of this witness, he's

19 president of the municipality and not of the TO.

20 JUDGE JAN: He can say he's not aware of

21 those seals, he can say that.

22 MR. NIEMANN: In fact, he said, "absolutely",

23 I think, Your Honour.

24 Q. And just looking at the next document that I

25 have given you, which is a similar document, and only

Page 11917

1 reference to the seals again. Now I only want to see

2 the seals on the second page. Now, again, there's two

3 seals there, they're the seals of the Territorial

4 Defence, are they not, Doctor?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. And there are two names that appear beside

7 them. Now, does that mean that if Zejnil Delalic, for

8 example, was to sign his name and attach a seal next to

9 it, that if there was any confusion about his role or

10 competency, we would resolve that confusion by

11 reference to that seal that appears there?

12 A. I do not agree, I will explain this to Your

13 Honours.

14 Q. Please do.

15 A. Here on this document, the signature, if this

16 is actually the signature of Mr. Delalic, above that

17 you have the word "coordinator". This is not the only

18 document signed by him. And it is not a sign of the

19 fact that this person is a military person, but, merely

20 of a sign of his presence and of his information. We

21 were aware of his status at that time and what he was

22 at that time. And the document was written in a

23 competent military body, which was confirmed by the

24 seals and the coordinator, coordinator was only

25 confirms that he was present at the time, so he was

Page 11918

1 civilian then and he only transmitted information

2 between the joint command and the war presidency and I

3 don't see anything strange in this.

4 Q. So that seal --

5 A. He's not a soldier in signing this.

6 Q. So the seals really didn't mean very much at

7 all?

8 A. I am not commenting on this. We know what

9 his function was and what his signature means. We have

10 clarified his post of coordinator on a number of

11 occasions already, very clearly.

12 Q. So, yesterday, when you were speaking of the

13 fact that the TO commanders would sign certain

14 documents, and you signed documents with them as the

15 war -- as president of the war presidency, it wouldn't

16 matter where you put your seal or the TO's seal on the

17 document next to your signature, is that what you're

18 saying?

19 A. All the documents, which the joint command

20 sent to the war presidency had the character of a piece

21 of information and vice versa. All documents of the

22 war presidency sent to the joint command had the

23 character of an information and not of an order. We

24 could not order anything to the joint command and the

25 joint command couldn't issue orders to us because we

Page 11919

1 were quite different bodies, but we could issue to one

2 another some piece of information related to an

3 individual problem. So the war presidency could issue

4 decisions only to management bodies or to the

5 institutions established by it, like the civilian

6 defence and so on, but not to any other military body.

7 Q. Thank you. Doctor, yesterday in your

8 evidence you spoke of the fact that the war presidency

9 formed a medical commission to examine persons and to

10 provide medical care.

11 A. The war presidency, not the military

12 presidency.

13 Q. I do apologise, the war presidency, thank

14 you.

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. And that medical commission also had

17 responsibility for people in Celebici, as well as other

18 persons in Konjic Municipality, that's right, isn't

19 it?

20 MS. RESIDOVIC: Your Honour, the basis of

21 this question of our colleague, it was not a question

22 of the war presidency forming commission, it was the

23 health centre that established commissions for medical

24 examinations.

25 MR. NIEMANN: We'll check up on the

Page 11920

1 transcripts, Your Honour.

2 Q. But the health commission, in any event, came

3 under the --

4 A. Change the substance of the matter.

5 Q. It doesn't change the substance, is that what

6 you're saying?

7 A. The medical commission was formed by the

8 health institution and the health institution was

9 established by the municipalities, so the hospital in

10 Konjic was under the competency of the municipality and

11 this was all under the competencies of the hospital.

12 Q. Thank you.

13 A. So the health centre was in charge of taking

14 care of the health of all the population of Konjic and

15 to provide medical care to all of them. And I would

16 like to avail myself of this opportunity to say that

17 they did their utmost as colleagues and as health

18 workers and medical personnel and doctors, regardless

19 of who was in questions, they invested super human

20 efforts because the times were very difficult indeed.

21 Q. What programme was in place on an ongoing

22 basis to attend to the health needs of the prisoners of

23 Celebici by this medical commission?

24 A. The health centre was very busy indeed. And

25 it had obligations to the entire population of Konjic,

Page 11921

1 so the prisoners, the detainees were in such a position

2 that health could be provided to them in the same way

3 as to the other population when such assistance was

4 needed. The doctors and the staff provided such aid

5 whenever this was necessary and that is a certainty.

6 Q. And I am being just shown the transcript of

7 what you actually said yesterday at 1004029 -- .29.

8 And you say in answer to a question, after these police

9 and military operations in these areas mentioned, the

10 war presidency at its session, held on June 3rd of that

11 year, adopted a series of conclusions, it mentions

12 several events --

13 A. Yes, I said June the 3rd.

14 Q. And you participated, did you not, as part of

15 this medical commission?

16 A. I was a Doctor and there were very few

17 doctors in the municipality. All the Serb physicians

18 had left. And there was a shortage of medical

19 persons. We even suggested to mobilise to include

20 medical students, those who had not yet graduated, in

21 our job. Anyone who had any sort of medical knowledge.

22 JUDGE JAN: It's not necessary, please.


24 Q. Doctor, in most instances, the questions I

25 ask you merely require a yes or no answer. Now, I

Page 11922

1 don't want to restrict you if you think you need to

2 explain something, but in most instances, you can

3 satisfy my requirements by -- just wait please,

4 Doctor -- you can satisfy my requirements by yes or no

5 answer and we can resolve this much more quickly.

6 A. Yes, I took part in examining in this board

7 commission as a Doctor.

8 Q. Now, you examined people in Celebici as well,

9 didn't you, you, yourself?

10 A. Yes, I did, once.

11 Q. Now, those people were brought to you, were

12 they, it wasn't a case of you going out and making any

13 determinations on your own, it was people that were

14 actually brought to you?

15 A. Yes. We examined them in the compound of

16 Celebici in the administrative building, that is, all

17 people requiring examination. They were brought by the

18 medical technicians to the administration building.

19 Q. I was just endeavouring to clarify whether

20 you had any input into the determination of who would

21 receive or who wouldn't receive medical attention.

22 Now, I think you also said in your evidence, and it's

23 your position, I believe, that the injuries that you

24 examined were not the result of someone being beaten

25 but were more the results or consequences of war

Page 11923

1 injuries. That's your position, isn't it?

2 A. I said that because people who are brought

3 were brought following military and combat action and

4 then we examined them. I took part in those

5 examinations and the people were brought to us after

6 the combat operations.

7 Q. Do you know the names of any of the prisoners

8 that were actually taken away from Celebici for medical

9 treatment?

10 A. I can't remember the details. I think that I

11 knew some of them. I knew a man called Mrkajic; that

12 was his surname, and I think I remember a man called

13 Jovanovic; that was his surname. I cannot be 100 per

14 cent sure but I think that I can remember them.

15 Q. What about a name called Slobodan Babic?

16 A. Doesn't mean a thing to me.

17 Q. Zelko Klimenta?

18 A. Zelko Klimenta, I knew him but I hadn't seen

19 him. I don't remember having had examined him, but I

20 knew him from earlier. I don't remember that he was

21 checked up by us.

22 Q. Were the medical records of the detainees of

23 Celebici that you examined, kept?

24 A. These were records kept by the medical

25 technicians. This was not the job of a doctor, that

Page 11924

1 is, writing in the names and surnames of the patients

2 and so on.

3 Q. These medical technicians accompanied you to

4 Celebici, did they, when you did your examinations so

5 that these were --

6 A. The entire job relating to examination was

7 carried out by the health centre, that civilian

8 institution.

9 Q. Did you actually write on the medical

10 records, sign them or make any note on them yourself?

11 A. I can't really remember the details, but some

12 diagnosis had to be written out. If people were more

13 seriously injured, they were sent to hospital. And

14 then there, there should have been documents about such

15 cases.

16 Q. But are you saying there were no documents in

17 relation to people actually examined at Celebici, only

18 those that went to hospital?

19 A. That is not what I'm claiming.

20 Q. Well, I'm not trying to --

21 A. No, I didn't say that.

22 Q. But really what I'm asking you, Doctor, is

23 are you aware that medical records were kept of the

24 Celebici detainees examined at Celebici. That's what I

25 want to know.

Page 11925

1 A. There was a book probably. There must have

2 been a book with the names of the persons coming to be

3 examined were noted down. This is quite normal. This

4 is the protocol of medical assistance.

5 Q. Where would that book be now?

6 THE INTERPRETER: We can't hear the witness.

7 A. I don't know. I don't know where it is now.


9 Q. Doctor, who determined which patients you

10 would see and which ones you wouldn't see; do you

11 know? It may be something you don't know.

12 JUDGE JAN: Did you examine all or some of

13 them only? Did you examine all the detainees or only

14 some of them?

15 A. The detainees requiring medical assistance

16 were provided with such medical assistance so

17 whoever --

18 JUDGE JAN: Did you examine all the detainees

19 or only those who required attention?

20 A. Well, there were no regular systematic

21 check-ups, only those wishing to be examined or having

22 any health problems were examined. I think that this

23 is clear. I think that is the usual practise.


25 Q. You attended the camp, I think you said, on

Page 11926

1 one occasion, in your capacity as a medical

2 practitioner. Did you attend in any other capacity?

3 Do you remember going out there for any other reason?

4 JUDGE JAN: He has said that on the oath

5 taking ceremony.

6 A. I didn't say that I visited the prison. I

7 said that I had visited the compound of the Celebici,

8 the barracks. I never went to the prison. I was in

9 the administration building where I examined people on

10 one occasion. On a second occasion, I went to the

11 compound when there was the swearing-in ceremony, and I

12 was in the official stalls there, in the solemn stalls.

13 Q. Were there any other doctors with you at the

14 time you went to the camp to perform your medical

15 duties?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Who was with you then?

18 A. I remember there was Dr. Ahmed Izetbegovic

19 (sic) who is a specialist of internal medicine.

20 THE INTERPRETER: I'm sorry. The name is

21 Jusufbegovic, sorry, Ahmed Jusufbegovic.

22 JUDGE JAN: In the transcript it's

23 "Izetbegovic."


25 Q. Doctor, do you remember going to Celebici on

Page 11927

1 one occasion at least when you spoke to Jasmin Guska?

2 A. No. On one occasion in those two cases I

3 mentioned when we were examining patients, I saw Jasmin

4 Guska in the circle. I didn't speak with him at all.

5 I remember that I saw a colleague, a doctor, and I had

6 a short talk with him.

7 Q. Do you remember being at the camp and seeing

8 Dr. Petko Grubac?

9 A. I was not in the camp. I told you where I

10 was. But a moment ago, I just said that I saw a

11 colleague of mine who was a physician and this was

12 Dr. Petko Grubac. I said that I saw him while I was

13 going to the administration building because he was

14 there and I had a very brief conversation with him. I

15 recall very well that I told him on that occasion that

16 I was not competent -- that I had nothing to do with

17 his investigation, that he was a physician, that he was

18 probably going to be treated quite humanely. I have

19 nothing more to add to this.

20 Q. Did you see Jasmin Guska remove his glasses

21 or force him to throw his glasses on the floor and then

22 smash them. Did you witness that?

23 A. I know absolutely nothing about that.

24 Q. Do you remember ever attending a meeting in

25 Zejnil Delalic's house, and specifically, the date I

Page 11928

1 have is the 11th of July, 1992, when there was

2 discussion about a military matter of setting up an

3 ambush?

4 A. I hear this for the first time indeed.

5 Q. So you know nothing about that. Do you know

6 a person or persons called Strahinja Sekic and Slobodan

7 Draganic; do you know either of those people?

8 A. No.

9 Q. Do you remember ever receiving a call from

10 people in a Serb village in the municipality, I

11 shouldn't say a Serb village, but in a village in

12 the municipality appealing to you to have grenade

13 attacks stopped on the village; do you ever recall

14 anything like that?

15 A. No. It's really too much to ask of me right

16 now. There were so many things there. I really do not

17 recall.

18 Q. Did people actually call you about military

19 matters from time to time that you can recall, such as

20 preventing firing on a village and so forth?

21 A. To be honest with you, in my office, people

22 work 24 hours a day, hundreds and hundreds of people

23 pass through it. It's not something that I can really

24 answer.

25 Q. What did you think of Esad Ramic?

Page 11929

1 JUDGE JAN: As what, as a commander, as a

2 person or what?


4 Q. As commander, as a person.

5 A. I don't know. What is the meaning of that

6 question? I don't understand. I know that he was the

7 municipal headquarters commander, and as far as his

8 personal qualities are concerned, I really --

9 JUDGE JAN: You had no complaints against

10 him?

11 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, Your Honour.

12 JUDGE JAN: You had no complaints against

13 him? That's all he can say.

14 MR. NIEMANN: I won't ask any more, Your

15 Honour.

16 Q. Did you give a statement on the 20th of June,

17 1993 at Pazavici to the 43rd Mountain Brigade of the

18 army of the Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina?

19 MS. RESIDOVIC: Your Honours, I really do not

20 see any relevance to any of these questions and I

21 object to them.

22 MR. NIEMANN: If my colleague is patient,

23 Your Honours, all will be revealed.

24 Q. I'd ask you to look at this document that I

25 now show you. There's an English version and a Bosniak

Page 11930

1 version, and there's a copy for Your Honours and a copy

2 for the Defence, I believe.

3 THE REGISTRAR: Prosecution document 242.


5 Q. Doctor, does your signature appear at the

6 foot of each page of that document?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Do you remember actually giving this

9 statement?

10 A. Yes.

11 MS. RESIDOVIC: Your Honours, I need to

12 object again. Again, this is a document drafted by a

13 security body which, according to our law, can never be

14 used in a court of law.

15 MR. NIEMANN: Your Honours, their law has no

16 application here, and I'm only dealing with one

17 paragraph. I'll be very brief.

18 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Are you intending to

19 impeach his statement in any respect?

20 MR. NIEMANN: In some respects, yes, Your

21 Honour, but only in one paragraph. It's a very short

22 paragraph.

23 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: If that is not the case,

24 I don't think it will be necessary to refer to it.

25 What was it that he said you wanted to impeach?

Page 11931

1 MR. NIEMANN: I just want him to go, Your

2 Honours, to the second -- I'll give it to him in his

3 own language. In Your Honours' English version, the

4 relevant paragraph to which I wish to take you is on

5 the third page --

6 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: What I'm asking is what

7 do you intend to impeach? If it is not intended for

8 that, then I don't think it will even be necessary to

9 refer to it.

10 MR. NIEMANN: Well, to explain the subject

11 matter, I have to take Your Honour to the relevant

12 part, and once I do, I can explain the subject matter

13 much more easily, I think.

14 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: I think I don't like it

15 that way, because if it will not be necessary to

16 introduce it, the reading of that paragraph will not be

17 necessary.

18 MR. NIEMANN: Well, Your Honours, it goes to

19 the question just a few moments ago about his opinion

20 of Esad Ramic, and it goes to the question of his

21 authorities and capacities to a point.

22 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Let's hear what he said

23 here.

24 JUDGE JAN: Tell me what you're referring to

25 the paragraph. "Zejnil set up a headquarters in his

Page 11932

1 house. Zejnil and Esad did not like each other. As

2 for" --

3 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone to Judge Jan,

4 please.

5 MR. NIEMANN: That's exactly right.

6 JUDGE JAN: "He's an asshole. I would never

7 have appointed him commander. That's what Zejnil told

8 him so." How is it relevant? It doesn't show that

9 Zejnil became the commander of the TO. It doesn't show

10 he was responsible for setting up the Celebici camp.

11 Why are you bringing documents which have no bearing on

12 this case?

13 MR. NIEMANN: Your Honours, with respect, the

14 credibility of a witness is something that is very

15 crucial and central, and he has already testified that

16 he had no problems with Esad Ramic.

17 JUDGE JAN: He may not have problems, but the

18 feeling of his professional competence is a different

19 thing.

20 MR. NIEMANN: I'm not asking him about his

21 professional competence. I'm asking him about his

22 opinion of somebody, and he has already given me an

23 answer and this would appear to contradict it. Your

24 Honours, that's a standard approach of

25 cross-examination and it deals with the issue of

Page 11933

1 credibility.

2 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: I think there are

3 differences of opinion expressed in other places and is

4 relevant in the case, but I don't know what that

5 matters to Delalic himself.

6 MR. NIEMANN: I'm not going to pursue it,

7 Your Honours, but I note that I have attempted to deal

8 with this issue in what I submit, with great respect,

9 is a legitimate method of cross-examination, but

10 anyway, I'll pass on, Your Honour.

11 Q. Now, Doctor, in your evidence yesterday, you

12 spoke of the fact that you did, on occasion, wear

13 military uniforms but that was for official purposes;

14 is that a fair summary of your evidence on that matter?

15 A. That is not what I said.

16 THE INTERPRETER: Could also the microphone

17 be put to the witness, please?

18 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Kindly check his

19 microphone.

20 A. I did not say that yesterday.


22 Q. Well, you tell me what you did say. Let's

23 make sure we have this clear. What is your position?

24 Why did you wear military uniforms in 1993?

25 A. That year many persons wore uniforms. I was

Page 11934

1 a civilian organ, but it was an honour for me to wear a

2 uniform. It was easier for me to work, to move

3 around. It does not prove that I was a soldier. A

4 number of people did this. This was the beginning of

5 the war. It was something that was a matter of pride

6 and honour. I see nothing bad in this.

7 Q. Now, you performed medical duties, so you're

8 a man of medicine. You were the president of the war

9 presidency and a civilian, but you occasionally wore

10 military uniforms for limited purposes?

11 A. I certainly did not wear it when I was in the

12 surgery room.

13 Q. Why did you carry a machine gun?

14 JUDGE JAN: Ask him did he carry a machine

15 gun?


17 Q. Actually, did you carry a machine gun?

18 MR. MORAN: Your Honour, I object to the

19 relevance of this. This is collateral to anything that

20 has to do with the guilt of any of these defendants.


22 Q. Did you carry a machine gun?

23 A. Not an automatic rifle but I had my personal

24 weapons. These were wartimes. There's nothing strange

25 about it.

Page 11935

1 Q. I'm not familiar with weapons, Doctor, so you

2 would need to forgive me, but is a Heckler,

3 H-E-C-K-L-E-R, a small machine gun?

4 A. You're asking me too much. I had a pistol.

5 It was my personal weapon, if you really want to know.

6 Q. And that was what you wore on those

7 occasions?

8 A. Not in the hospital, only when I would go to

9 places where it was necessary.

10 JUDGE JAN: In the hospital, you carried a

11 knife?

12 A. Yes, a surgical knife, yes.


14 Q. I don't know whether the booth is ready to

15 play a very small excerpt of Exhibit 109 which I have

16 requested --

17 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Do you think it's

18 necessary to play that?

19 MR. NIEMANN: Again, Your Honours, it goes to

20 credibility. It's a video showing this gentleman, we

21 will submit, at the appropriate time and we submit he's

22 carrying a gun.

23 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: You talked about this

24 particular type of gun.

25 MR. NIEMANN: That is what the video will

Page 11936

1 reveal, Your Honour, because they tend to be the most

2 accurate form of evidence.

3 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: What he carried was a

4 machine gun?

5 MR. NIEMANN: I wouldn't like to engage in

6 what is machine guns and what aren't, but it's more

7 than a pistol, put it that way.

8 MR. MORAN: Your Honour, I would object to

9 this. It's irrelevant and collateral impeachment. It

10 doesn't go to the heart of the issues.

11 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: It is not necessary.

12 MS. RESIDOVIC: I also would like to join in

13 this objection.

14 JUDGE JAN: There could always be danger of

15 his being attacked. So if he carried a weapon, what is

16 there to say about it?

17 THE WITNESS: Absolutely.

18 MR. NIEMANN: A man of medicine, Your Honours

19 and

20 JUDGE JAN: And also a political leader.

21 MR. NIEMANN: I won't press it, Your Honours.

22 Q. If people that were in senior and responsible

23 positions in the Konjic municipality, during that

24 period, stated that they were members of the war

25 presidency, I'm referring directly to the accused

Page 11937

1 Mr. Delalic -- I'll withdraw that, Your Honours.

2 Did the war presidency have any obligations

3 to ensure that the Celebici detainees had adequate

4 care, blankets and food?

5 A. The war presidency, within the sphere of its

6 own responsibilities, as well as the institutions that

7 were subordinate to it, like the civilian protection

8 agency and health care, needed to provide care for

9 everyone including the prisoners. This was done

10 through the civilian protection. This was done through

11 collections. We did not have supplies of blankets and

12 similar supplies. It was something that was a normal,

13 regular activity.

14 Q. Were you ultimately responsible to ensure

15 that they received those sorts of needs and

16 requirements?

17 A. I was very clear. The presidency had no

18 responsibility over the prison, but the civilian bodies

19 of the presidency, such as the civilian protection and

20 an institution which was established by the presidency

21 which was the hospital, did have such responsibility to

22 collect the supplies such as blankets, medication.

23 These medications would then be provided to the

24 appropriate bodies who had responsibility for the

25 prisoners. I think that is clear.

Page 11938

1 MR. NIEMANN: No further questions.

2 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Is that all you have for

3 this witness?

4 MR. NIEMANN: Yes, Your Honour.

5 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Any re-examination of

6 this witness?

7 MS. RESIDOVIC: Several questions, Your

8 Honours.

9 Re-examined by Ms. Residovic.

10 Q. Mr. Hadzihuseinovic, during the

11 cross-examination by the Prosecution, you were shown

12 certain decisions and orders. Can you tell me,

13 Mr. Hadzihuseinovic, whether the war presidency in its

14 role as the assembly was authorised to issue orders and

15 decisions?

16 MR. NIEMANN: Objection, Your Honour.

17 A. Yes. Yes, certainly it did have such

18 authorities but only with respect to the civilian

19 administration bodies and institutions that it had

20 established such as the hospital, but in no way with

21 respect to the military bodies, and this is what is

22 stated in the statute of the town of Konjic in article

23 66.

24 Q. Thank you. You have spoken about that

25 already.

Page 11939

1 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: He explained it during

2 cross-examination. He explained it properly.

3 A. I believe that this was also stated

4 yesterday.


6 Q. Very well, Mr. Hadzihuseinovic, just the

7 issues that were not made absolutely clear. Now, I

8 would like to show a couple of exhibits shown to you by

9 the Prosecution, that is 5A-11, 5A/12. It's "/13."

10 This is all part of D-144. Number 12 was not shown to

11 the witness.

12 THE REGISTRAR: 5A/12 and 5A/13 were shown to

13 the witness, so please, Counsel, be precise which

14 document we should show?

15 MS. RESIDOVIC: Could you please show two

16 documents, 5A/12 and 5A/13?

17 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: What are these documents

18 supposed to show?

19 MS. RESIDOVIC: One is an order of 3 June

20 regarding blankets, and the other one is the decision

21 on the health centre. Those were the documents shown

22 to the witness by the Prosecution.

23 Q. You have both of the documents?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Mr. Hadzihuseinovic, regarding the delivery,

Page 11940

1 could you tell me whether the order was delivered to

2 the command and to the logistics office?

3 A. Yes, as an information.

4 Q. Thank you. Was the decision also delivered

5 both to the command and to the logistics body?

6 A. Yes, and also as an information.

7 Q. Very well, Mr. Hadzihuseinovic. Is it true

8 then that depending on who was to be informed, both

9 decisions and orders were delivered in the same manner?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. I believe that we have now clarified a point

12 that had not been made clear previously. There is

13 another issue that needs to be clarified. Now that you

14 have this decision regarding the health centre in front

15 of you, is this the decision whereby the health centre

16 is committing to providing certain health care to the

17 detainees at Celebici?

18 A. Absolutely.

19 Q. Is this the decision that you had referred to

20 during your examination-in-chief and when you were

21 shown part of the transcript by the Prosecution?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. The medical commission, of which you were a

24 part, and which was established by the health centre,

25 was this a second commission which went there,

Page 11941

1 immediately following the combat operations, to examine

2 the prisoners?

3 A. Yes.

4 MS. RESIDOVIC: Thank you, Your Honours. I

5 have no further questions of this witness.

6 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Thank you very much,

7 Dr. Hadzihuseinovic, and chairman of the municipal

8 authority. We are very grateful for your assistance to

9 the Tribunal. We appreciated your testimony. Thank

10 you very much.

11 THE WITNESS: Thank you too.

12 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: The witness is

13 discharged.

14 (The witness withdrew)

15 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Now, you can bring your

16 next witness at 12? The Trial Chamber will now rise

17 and reassemble at 12 noon.

18 --- Recess taken at 11.30 a.m.

19 --- On resuming at 12.05 p.m.

20 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Would counsel be fairly

21 nice to the -- to let us have an idea of what is

22 being inflated on us again, whether it is a repetition

23 of what has been going on or something different?

24 Because I think we have had enough of some many stories

25 of the same kind. So let's know where we are being led

Page 11942

1 to this time.

2 MS. RESIDOVIC: Your Honours, this witness is

3 the director of the war hospital. You will recall that

4 certain prosecution witnesses mentioned him. And given

5 the evidence that was provided, this will determine my

6 leading of this witness. This is -- this most of all

7 concerns the exculpatory evidence concerning the

8 doctors. There may be some additional questions which

9 would just give additional information. But, as I said

10 yesterday, I will only limit myself to two or three

11 areas that are crucial for our Defence.

12 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: You may proceed. If we

13 find that certain portions are getting announced again

14 and again, we reserve the right not to let them in as

15 evidence, but you may continue.

16 MS. RESIDOVIC: Yes, I call Mr. Ahmed

17 Jusufbegovic.

18 (The witness entered court)

19 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Will you please swear

20 the witness. I solemnly declare that I will speak the

21 truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth.

22 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Kindly take your seat.

23 THE WITNESS: Thank you.

24 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: You may proceed, Ms.

25 Residovic.

Page 11943

1 MS. RESIDOVIC: Thank you, Your Honour

2 Examination by Ms. Residovic:

3 Q. Sir, will you please state your name for the

4 court, by giving us your full first and last names?

5 A. My first is Ahmed Jusufbegovic.

6 Q. Mr. Jusufbegovic, will you please tell the

7 court where and when were you born?

8 A. I was born in Repovci, 1937, on March 15.

9 Q. In order to make it very specific, could you

10 please tell us where Repovci is located?

11 A. Repovci is about 20 kilometres out of Konjic

12 and the road from Konjic to Repovci passes through

13 Bradina.

14 Q. Thank you, I think that clarifies it

15 sufficiently. Mr. Jusufbegovic, can you tell me what

16 your profession is and where were you educated?

17 A. I am a physician, a specialist for internal

18 medicine and my subspecialisation is in cardiology. My

19 entire education was in Sarajevo. I graduated from the

20 classical high school in Sarajevo and also the medical

21 school. For a while I studied in Belgrade. I

22 specialised in internal medicine in Sarajevo. Then I

23 also went to graduate school and specialising in

24 cardiology, also in Sarajevo.

25 Q. Thank you. Mr. Jusufbegovic, where were you

Page 11944

1 and what was your position in 1992?

2 A. I was in Konjic and I was on duty of the

3 director of health centre in Konjic.

4 Q. Mr. Jusufbegovic, the court is aware of a

5 number of facts regarding the blockade of the town, so

6 I am not here to dwell on these questions, being

7 citizens who live there. My only question to you is,

8 as a director of the health centre there, did you have

9 certain problems in providing health care and

10 transportation of your patients during this period and

11 what were the reasons, if so?

12 A. Yes. During that period, in the institution

13 where I worked, which was the health centre, the

14 problems we were facing were very complex. We were a

15 health centre, which was not adequately supplied with

16 medication, medical supplies and other equipment and

17 machinery, which was necessary to provide medical care

18 to the regular patients and the new ones, which were

19 now -- which now appeared because of the war. In other

20 words, we had lack of just about everything we needed

21 for our work.

22 Q. Mr. Jusufbegovic, where were you taking more

23 serious patients, that is, patients with more serious

24 conditions?

25 A. Before the war broke out, we were

Page 11945

1 transferring all our patients who needed serious

2 medical care to Mostar or Sarajevo. However, in late

3 April, all roads were blocked and no patient could

4 leave Konjic any more.

5 Q. Just one more general question, Mr.

6 Jusufbegovic, did you have any personal experiences in

7 your attempts to send these seriously ill patients out

8 of Konjic?

9 A. Yes. My personal experiences related to some

10 time around 1 May 1992. We had chemo-dialysis in

11 Sarajevo. And there were six patients whose lives

12 depended on this chemo-dialysis and I personally took

13 them into ambulances to Sarajevo. At the village of

14 Bradina, there was a check point where we were stopped.

15 Q. Thank you, Doctor. Doctor, do you know

16 Zejnil Delalic?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Is it true that you were close friends?

19 A. Yes, that is correct.

20 Q. Can this friendship influence your

21 testimony? In other words, can you speak the full and

22 whole truth, regardless of this fact?

23 A. I have given a solemn declaration that I

24 would be speaking truth and nothing but the truth and I

25 will abide by that.

Page 11946

1 Q. As a friend of Mr. Zejnil Delalic, do you

2 know whether Mr. Zejnil Delalic, before the war or

3 during the war, was a member of any political party in

4 Konjic?

5 A. Mr. Zejnil Delalic did not belong to any

6 party.

7 Q. Do you know whether he was a member of any

8 government body in Konjic?

9 A. He was not a member of any government body in

10 Konjic.

11 Q. Mr. Jusufbegovic, do you know whether Mr.

12 Zejnil Delalic, in the period before he became the

13 commander of a tactical group, did take part in any

14 combat operations?

15 A. I only know that he took part as a civilian

16 in transportation of material from the Celebici

17 barracks to the Ovcara farm, which was the

18 property of his sister's.

19 Q. Thank you. Mr. Jusufbegovic, were (redacted)

20 (redacted)Dr. Petko Grubac persons whom you know?

21 A. Yes, these are my long time colleagues. They

22 both worked in the same organisation where I worked,

23 and together with Dr. Grubac, I went to school.

24 Q. Mr. Jusufbegovic, do you know whether these

25 physicians, at some point in 1992, left your

Page 11947

1 institution?

2 A. Yes. In late April, I believe, I think it

3 was around 20th of April, they left our institution,

4 our organisation, and moved to Bradina.

5 Q. Dr. Jusufbegovic, do you know whether there

6 were any military activities conducted in Konjic in

7 order to lift the blockade of the town?

8 A. Yes. There were such activities in order to

9 lift a blockade of the town.

10 Q. Dr. Jusufbegovic, do you know that in the

11 course of these combat operations, (redacted)

12 Dr. Grubac were captured and detained?

13 A. Yes, I know that.

14 Q. Dr. Jusufbegovic, how did you find out and

15 from whom (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 A. I found that out from Mr. Delalic.

18 Q. Could you describe this to us briefly?

19 A. Yes. Some time before dawn, I received a

20 call from Mr. Delalic. That was -- that night was very

21 busy. I don't know exactly how many wounded we

22 received that night, but we did work through the

23 night. I had just left to take a rest when the

24 physician on duty called me and told me that Mr.

25 Delalic was on the telephone asking for me. And we

Page 11948

1 talked and (redacted)

2 with him and that he would send him. If I accepted,

3 because he requested it, because he was on my staff,

4 that he was slightly injured and that he needed certain

5 medical help. And he also suggested in this

6 conversation that it would be good since I was already

7 deficient in medical staff, that we should keep the

8 doctor so that he would continue to work at the

9 hospital. I accepted this request and I agreed that

10 (redacted).

11 Q. Dr. Jusufbegovic, regarding this

12 conversation, can you perhaps recall whether Mr. Zejnil

13 Delalic told you who else was present there and whether

14 this other person is also requesting this favour?

15 A. Yes. He told me that Dinko Zebic had brought

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted).

18 Q. You have now twice stated that you were asked

19 by Mr. Zejnil Delalic to do this, can you tell me now

20 whether Mr. Zejnil Delalic issued you an order or could

21 he have issued you an order to do this?

22 A. No, there was no order issued. Zejnil

23 Delalic was no superior of mine. My organisation, that

24 is where I was the director, was reporting to its

25 founder and this was the municipal assembly. And at

Page 11949

1 this time, the war presidency had already been

2 established, so I only could have received an order

3 from the war presidency and its president.

4 Q. Mr. Jusufbegovic,(redacted)

5 (redacted) did you fulfil the request of

6 Mr. Zejnil Delalic and Mr. Dinko Zebic?

7 A. (redacted)

8 (redacted).

9 Q. Excuse me, before you go on, since you said

10 that there were a lot of wounded and injured and you

11 worked the whole day and night, can you tell me when

12 this all took place -- or, let me be very specific, was

13 this during the operations at Bradina?

14 A. Yes, exactly at that time. I believe that

15 the Bradina operation was not quite finished yet.

16 Q. Very well, now please go on, what happened

17 (redacted)

18 A. The staff was not in a great mood. The

19 rumours started going around that the doctor who had

20 left us, who was detained at Bradina is now supposed to

21 be working with us. And there are wounded persons,

22 people who were maimed who were coming from that same

23 area and it would be kind of awkward for me now to

24 accept him as a staff member.

25 Q. (redacted)

Page 11950

1 a while as a patient and what happened with him next?

2 A. I justified his stay there because he was a

3 patient. He was lightly injured and I wanted to sort

4 of pacify the staff and I received him in the

5 gynaecological ward, where I believe he stayed for two

6 nights.

7 Q. Dr. Jusufbegovic, did you later on learn, or

8 did you learn at all, that Dr. Petko Grubac was also

9 captured and detained at Bradina?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. As the director of the health centre, was it

12 part of your responsibility to immediately respond and

13 provide medical care to persons who were injured?

14 A. Yes, certainly. We provided first aid to any

15 person who was injured, regardless of who they were.

16 My institution never discriminated between any --

17 between any kind of -- different patients or injured,

18 regardless of who they were. We only prioritise by the

19 degree of emergency.

20 Q. Doctor, you said that there was a lot of work

21 during those couple of days, did you learn whether

22 there were injured persons among those who were

23 offering resistance to the defence forces in those

24 operations?

25 A. Yes, there were injured.

Page 11951

1 Q. As director of the health centre and as a

2 physician, did you do what was necessary in order to

3 examine these injured persons? And if you did, can you

4 tell us what it was that you did?

5 A. We immediately established a commission,

6 which was tasked with examining all the injured, to

7 provide medical care, the first aid; for those who

8 needed additional medical care, those persons were to

9 be transferred to the hospital where they could be

10 provided such care. And members of this commission

11 included a surgeon, Rusmir Hadzihuseinovic, then it was

12 Dr. Hajduk and myself.

13 Q. Where did you conduct the examination of

14 these detained persons?

15 A. The examination was conducted in an

16 administration building at Celebici.

17 Q. Were the examined persons provided adequate

18 medical care at that time, that is a kind of medical

19 care that your health centre was able to provide at the

20 time?

21 A. Yes, we did provide adequate care to all

22 persons who were in need of it.

23 Q. Doctor, now let us switch over to another

24 topic. Tell me, in the course of 1992, in any point of

25 time, were you ever engaged in liberating your

Page 11952

1 colleagues, (redacted) and Dr. Grubac?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Can you describe to us or tell us how this

4 took place, at whose request, and tell us everything

5 you know about it?

6 A. Well, this happened at the end of July, and

7 it was the second half of July, actually. One evening

8 in my surgery, I was -- I had a telephone call from Mr.

9 Delalic and he told me that on that day, Grubac Gordana

10 had visited him that day, who is the wife of Dr.

11 Grubac. Perhaps she asked for me, but she couldn't

12 find me for some reason and he was very surprised that

13 those persons were still being detained and that

14 something should be done as -- being friends of those

15 doctors, he was their friend and I was even in family

16 relations with Dr. Grubac because we were, in fact,

17 witnesses at our marriages. And that -- and then I

18 tried to meet that request as quickly and as fast as I

19 could, as quickly as possible. We'd agreed that on the

20 following morning, Mr. Delalic should come to me and

21 that we should make use of all our friends and

22 connections because I must say, publicly, in front of

23 this court, that friendly relations are very much in

24 fashion even today and that is how business is usually

25 concluded. And our agreement was, in fact, being

Page 11953

1 implemented the following morning.

2 Q. Dr. Jusufbegovic, the next morning, did Mr.

3 Delalic, in accordance with that agreement, come to

4 you, and what did you do on that day to help Dr. Grubac

5, (redacted) helping them to be released?

6 A. Mr. Delalic came with his driver and I said

7 to him, "I will go to 100 doors, knock at 100 doors in

8 Konjic to see what can be done and to do everything I

9 can to have these doctors released." Mr. Delalic

10 remained in hospital, because it was a general war

11 hospital, to see some of the wounded. I went to the

12 civilian protection unit, to the military investigative

13 commission, and all the people that I believed to be

14 willing to help, I looked for such people.

15 Unfortunately, I was not able to conclude this business

16 because these people could not give me the records

17 which could make it possible for these people to leave

18 the prison.

19 Q. Did you see Mr. Delalic on that day again?

20 A. Yes. We met again and I told him, I told

21 Zejnil, that I was not able to finish the business as

22 we had thought we could.

23 Q. Did you then and from whom find out that

24 Zejnil Delalic was in a certain way a party to the

25 signing of a document for the release of a certain

Page 11954

1 person?

2 A. Yes. Zejnil remembered a few days before,

3 that on the basis of a consent of one of the

4 commanders, he signed the release sheet in the military

5 investigative command or in the Territorial Defence.

6 Then his driver went off, and after an hour or so, he

7 brought us those two papers, those discharge sheets

8 from the prison.

9 Q. Doctor, on that day, did you talk to anyone

10 else about the release of those doctors in addition to

11 Mr. Zejnil Delalic?

12 A. Yes, I spoke to a number of people, but the

13 key person who was able to help was the commander. I

14 told him, since I have these papers with me, I have to

15 find Esad Ramic who was commander at the time and that

16 I would ask him for this because I'm responsible for

17 those doctors, and I could not really figure out or

18 understand that they had been in a conspiracy or that

19 they had done anything bad. I really wished to see

20 them released and that I would continue to be

21 responsible for them.

22 Q. Before I ask you the following question,

23 could you tell me when you heard that they had been

24 detained, did you hear from anyone why these doctors

25 were being detained, the reasons?

Page 11955

1 A. Yes. The reason was -- on the basis of

2 unofficial stories, I did not speak to anyone

3 officially in the health centres in Bradina when arms

4 had been found during the liberation operations in

5 Bradina. This was the reason why they had been

6 detained along with other people.

7 Q. Mr. Jusufbegovic, did you learn on that

8 occasion that Commander Ramic had been wounded and that

9 someone was standing in for him and who was that

10 person?

11 A. Yes. I learned that Commander Ramic had been

12 wounded and that he had been taken to Split to be

13 treated and that his replacement was Mr. Mekmed Cerovac

14 and which made me happy, I must say quite sincerely,

15 because I was friendly with him and we had cooperated

16 well when the war started.

17 As soon as I learned that fact, I took from

18 Zejnil Delalic his radio station and we found Commander

19 Cerovac, and I explained about the doctors and I

20 mentioned they had learned in Konjic, while we were

21 looking for the release papers, (redacted)

22 (redacted) had no role in the rebellion and in the

23 problem of arms being found in Bradina. That had

24 nothing to do with them, but was with Zuza Milan

25 (phoen) which the arms were found, and this was all

Page 11956

1 confirmed and investigated so that they were clean. I

2 promised Commander Cerovac that I would take further

3 care of those doctors.

4 Q. Mr. Jusufbegovic, in that discussion, was it

5 ever discussed about who would look after those

6 detainees and take care of their injuries?

7 A. Yes, because these doctors had already been

8 with the detainees and had been treated, I suggested

9 since they were good in their profession that they

10 should supervise those detainees.

11 Q. Tell me, what was the reaction of Mr. Cerovac

12 who was replacing Commander Ramic?

13 A. After my request and the explanations I had

14 given him, with regard to the doctors and their

15 situation, and that I intended for them to continue

16 taking care of the detainees, he said, "All right.

17 Give me Zejnil on the phone." He spoke with Zejnil,

18 and at one moment while they were talking, I saw that

19 Zejnil had a smile on his face and he said, "Now we are

20 successful." In fact, he finished the talk with

21 Cerovac, and he said, "Yes, sir," and he said that

22 Cerovac had told him that he should act in the same way

23 as with the previous cases, taxi (sic) cases, so that

24 he was fully supported by him and that he could sign on

25 his behalf that these doctors be released.

Page 11957

1 Q. Mr. Jusufbegovic, was that document signed by

2 Mr. Delalic in your presence after the talk you had

3 with Mr. Cerovac?

4 A. Yes, it was signed in my office.

5 Q. Do you remember if everything else on the

6 document, everything written in the document was

7 written in your office?

8 A. Yes, everything.

9 Q. Mr. Jusufbegovic, tell me whether you

10 personally took that document to Celebici? Were you

11 actually present when these people were released?

12 A. No. I did not hand over that document. That

13 document was handed over, submitted by the driver of

14 Mr. Delalic. In the first variant, this document

15 remained with me because Mr. Delalic and his driver

16 were to go to Vranske Stijene where they had come from

17 the day before, to the Vranske Mountain. But in the

18 evening when they returned and when shelling was very

19 heavy, and that part of Konjic had been shelled and the

20 upper part of the road too, and they were unable to

21 pass and they came back. They asked me if I had sent

22 that document.

23 On that day, however, there was a heavy

24 shelling of Konjic. There were many people injured,

25 and we had to admit the injured. Then I was working as

Page 11958

1 a specialist in internal medicine, more so than a

2 director. You had to calm down these people. Before

3 they were being operated, you had to reanimate these

4 people after the operation. In early afternoon,

5 between the afternoon, in the evening, I was very busy

6 so I did not have hand over that paper personally.

7 Q. Did you know in the course of that evening or

8 that night that these people had been released and did

9 any of these doctors call you to tell you that?

10 A. Yes. Somewhere late in the night, it was

11 after 11 p.m., perhaps even midnight, I was called to

12 the telephone and I spoke to Mr. Zejnil Delalic and he

13 said that the doctors had come and that they were in

14 his apartment.

15 Q. Did you propose something vis-à-vis the

16 doctors to take it easy, to come to work or something

17 else?

18 A. Well, I suggested to Dr. Grubac that he

19 should take a rest for a certain time, and then

20 afterwards we would see what he would do and what sort

21 of job he would do. (redacted)

22 that he should come the following day to me, which he

23 did, perhaps not on that day or the day after, I'm not

24 quite sure, but Dr. Relja came to me. I suggested that

25 he should come and visit us and that he should treat

Page 11959

1 the wounded and, in fact, he continued to treat them.

2 Q. Thank you, Dr. Jusufbegovic, thank you very

3 much. Do you know whether Zejnil Delalic, at that

4 particular time, at the time we are discussing now when

5 the doctors were released or perhaps earlier or later,

6 was a person who could have arrested anyone in Konjic?

7 A. This is funny. A person who can arrest can

8 release. He could neither arrest them, nor release

9 them. If he had been able to do so, he wouldn't have

10 had to address me for help in releasing someone. So

11 Delalic could do neither. He could only ask someone to

12 help him in the same way that I asked for help.

13 Q. Mr. Jusufbegovic, at any moment in 1992, did

14 Mr. Delalic, was he a superior authority to you?

15 A. No, no question of this. My superior

16 institution was the municipal assembly who organised

17 us. As far as military matters are concerned, if they

18 needed cars or medical equipment, the body in question

19 was the Territorial Defence.

20 Q. Mr. Jusufbegovic, do you know whether

21 Mr. Delalic, at any point in time in 1992, became a

22 military commander?

23 A. I know that. In the beginning of August,

24 Zejnil Delalic was appointed commander of Tactical

25 Group 1.

Page 11960

1 Q. Mr. Jusufbegovic, were you ever a member of

2 the command of TG-1?

3 A. No. I simply did not belong to any military

4 formation. I was a director of the health centre and I

5 was a doctor.

6 Q. Mr. Jusufbegovic, do you know whether

7 Mr. Zejnil Delalic, in the course of 1992, whether he

8 had any conflicts with certain persons from the HVO of

9 Konjic? If you know this from your own personal

10 experience, please tell the court.

11 A. Yes, I'm familiar with that. Zejnil Delalic,

12 at the beginning of the war, he had good relations with

13 leaders of the HVO defence. Afterwards, these

14 relations were sent (sic) and the reasons for this was

15 that at one point in time, the HVO began to act in an

16 inadequate way. They appropriated private and socially

17 owned property, some of the machines and personal

18 vehicles, trucks. They simply appropriated and took

19 them to Grude to Western Herzegovina.

20 Q. Have you any personal experience of the HVO

21 behaving in that way?

22 A. Yes, I do. I have a very bad experience.

23 The main commander, Mr. Ivica Azinovic, one day came to

24 my surgery. He wanted to have a discussion with me

25 while I was treating a patient. He took a car, a

Page 11961

1 Renault 25, and we didn't even have a key because the

2 mechanic was a Serb. He had taken the car.

3 Q. Were there any similar cases?

4 A. In a few days, even though I had addressed

5 the war presidency --

6 Q. This is the last question to the witness.

7 Did Mr. Delalic react to such behaviour and was this

8 one of the reasons why propaganda was spreading in his

9 respect?

10 A. Yes, exactly. I told Delalic and other

11 people, "What is happening to me? They are taking my

12 ambulances, my vehicles. I'm without vehicles now."

13 Zejnil Delalic entered into conflict with them and then

14 they, in fact, blamed him for many things. They said

15 he was a Chetnik and other things.

16 MS. RESIDOVIC: Thank you very much, Doctor,

17 for having come as a witness. I have just completed my

18 examination of this witness. Thank you.

19 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: This is a witness common

20 to almost all of the accused persons from the list of

21 witnesses. I hope you will take advantage of it if you

22 have any questions. Do you have any cross-examination

23 or any examination of him?

24 MR. OLUJIC: Your Honour, I have no questions

25 of this witness.

Page 11962

1 MR. KARABDIC: I would like to ask a few

2 questions, Your Honours.

3 Cross-examined by Mr. Karabdic

4 Q. Mr. Jusufbegovic, my name is Salih Karabdic

5 and I'm defending Mr. Delic. I would like to ask a few

6 questions for clarification, which you have given in

7 response to the questions of my colleague.

8 Do you know Hazim Delic?

9 A. Yes, I do.

10 Q. Did he ever come as a patient to your health

11 centre, which you ran, and was he ever given any

12 medical assistance?

13 A. Well, Hazim Delic was admitted to our

14 institution as a wounded person, a person who had a

15 large injury on one of his legs, on the lower part of

16 his legs. I don't know exactly when this was.

17 Q. Can you perhaps be more accurate, perhaps

18 whether it was at the beginning of the war? Can you

19 remember the month, if you cannot remember the exact

20 date?

21 A. Well, it was in the middle of that period, of

22 the period we are discussing.

23 Q. Do you know what sort of treatment he was

24 given and how long this lasted? What was his condition

25 when he was released and what was his health situation

Page 11963

1 once he was released from hospital?

2 A. Well, he had a serious bodily injury. It was

3 a section of the tissues, blood vessels, and he was

4 operated on under narcosis in our operation theatre.

5 He stayed at hospital for the time necessary for the

6 wound to heal. Perhaps we even released him earlier

7 than was proper and then I saw him walking on crutches.

8 Q. Was his leg put in a cast?

9 A. Yes, of course. After the treatment and the

10 operation, the cast was applied.

11 Q. Thank you. After that, did you have any

12 further contacts with Mr. Delic? Did he come to you

13 for some other business?

14 A. Yes. Hazim Delic in the month of June, he

15 came on a number of occasions. I think at least once a

16 week he came for medication and bandages and he also --

17 and Dr. Petko Mrkajic and (redacted) were actually addressed

18 by him for such medication. I wasn't dispensing that

19 medication. This was done by people who work in the

20 pharmacy or the senior nurse who had this function in

21 our institution. But first, he would always address me

22 first and then he would be directed to these others.

23 Of course, I must mention once again that we had

24 tremendous shortages at the time.

25 Q. Do you know what sort of medication did he

Page 11964

1 asked for?

2 A. Well, analgesics basically, and at one moment

3 I think he asked for various medications and creams

4 against scabies, but basically he asked for

5 analgesics or some of the antipyretics or antibiotics

6 which are normally prescribed for colds.

7 Q. Do you remember whether medication was

8 requested for diabetes?

9 A. Yes. This was something that was very much

10 in demand, these medications for diabetes.

11 Q. You mentioned and told us that you were in

12 Celebici, as a member of the commission, in order to

13 examine the prisoners. Was this immediately after the

14 liberation of Bradina?

15 A. Yes. This was immediately after the

16 liberation of Bradina in the afternoon hours.

17 Q. When you were in Celebici, immediately after

18 the liberation of Bradina, did you see prisoners lined

19 up near the administration building, that is, against

20 the wall, and did you see them being beaten? Were

21 there any prisoners there?

22 A. No. The answer is no. In this

23 administration building, we conducted an examination of

24 the injured and they were coming to us one by one,

25 these injured persons. The medical technician or nurse

Page 11965

1 would lead them into the office.

2 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: I think we might adjourn

3 until 2.30 for lunch so that you will continue your

4 cross-examination at that time.

5 MR. KARABDIC: Thank you.

6 --- Luncheon recess taken at 1.02 p.m.




















Page 11966

1 --- On resuming at 2.35 p.m.

2 (The witness entered court)

3 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Please remind the

4 witness he's still under oath.

5 THE REGISTRAR: I remind you, sir, that you

6 are still under oath.

7 MR. KARABDIC: May I continue, Your Honour?

8 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Yes, you may proceed.

9 MR. KARABDIC: Thank you.

10 Q. Mr. Jusufbegovic, I have several additional

11 questions for you. As I have previously asked you, you

12 were at Celebici and you conducted an examination in

13 the administration building following the events at

14 Bradina. Did you see whether anybody in your presence

15 tortured or mistreated prisoners in any way?

16 A. No. I did not see such things.

17 Q. Did you see prisoners lined up against the

18 wall where they were beaten?

19 A. No.

20 Q. Would you have seen that while you were

21 examining persons there in the administration building,

22 in other words, would you know about it?

23 A. Yes, we would, because the building was a low

24 building.

25 Q. Thank you, you said that you examined

Page 11967

1 prisoners, what were the prisoners complaints? Why did

2 they ask to be examined, what were the types of

3 injuries that they had sustained?

4 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Why don't you allow him

5 to answer before? You've asked him too many

6 questions. Put your next question.

7 MR. KARABDIC: Thank you, Your Honour. Thank

8 you for your advice.

9 THE WITNESS: This was immediately after the

10 deliberation of Bradina. For the most part, these were

11 light body injuries. There were very few cases where

12 there were more serious injuries involved.

13 Q. These more serious injuries, how were they

14 inflicted? Could you ascertain? Could you make any

15 judgements on that?

16 A. Most of them were something that was made

17 with -- had been inflicted with blunt objects and there

18 were some scratches.

19 Q. Were there any firearm inflicted injuries?

20 A. I believe that there was one, maybe two.

21 And, again, people were just touched with it.

22 Q. Could you ascertain whether any of these

23 injuries were produced by any kind of rifle butts or

24 other objects, such as belts or other things?

25 JUDGE JAN: Belt, that would be a blunt

Page 11968

1 weapon injury.


3 Q. Doctor, is it true that since -- between the

4 beginning of the hostilities and the events at Bradina,

5 is it true that there was a number of civilians and TO

6 members who were injured?

7 A. Yes, there was a number of persons injured

8 before that.

9 Q. Doctor, is it true that you only received

10 one -- just a part of these people who sought some

11 assistance, that is, only those who managed to get to

12 the hospital and that the number of them was actually

13 larger, that certain persons never made it all the way

14 to the hospitals, but were -- but received medical

15 attention elsewhere?

16 A. Yes, that is correct. There were various

17 reasons why certain people were not able to reach the

18 hospital.

19 Q. Doctor, if I were to tell you that until 26

20 May 1992, your hospital received 27 civilians who were

21 injured and that six of them were killed, and that

22 during this period of time, that five members of the TO

23 had been killed, but only one received in the

24 hospital. Would you agree with me regarding these

25 data?

Page 11969

1 A. Yes, I would. These data are correct.

2 Q. Can I tell you that -- if I were to tell you

3 that to your hospital, 423 wounded persons and 1,000 --

4 and that there were 449 persons who were in the

5 military personnel, would you agree with those figures

6 of people who reached your hospital?

7 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Is counsel giving

8 evidence or you got this from the witness? Is this

9 your evidence or you got it from some other witness?

10 MR. KARABDIC: I did not receive anything

11 from the witness, we received this data at a hospital.

12 We asked of the hospital administration to provide us

13 with this data. And this data has been supplied in the

14 expert witness report. I would now like the witness to

15 be shown Exhibit No. D-44-A 42/1.

16 MS. RESIDOVIC: Apologies, sir, the number is

17 not correct. It is 44 not 144-A.

18 JUDGE JAN: What is this document about?

19 MR. KARABDIC: This is a document of the

20 general hospital in Sarajevo, of the number of dead and

21 injured, during the war. I would like it to be shown

22 to the witness.

23 JUDGE JAN: How is it relevant to the purpose

24 of the defence? You're concerned with what happened in

25 Celebici.

Page 11970

1 MR. KARABDIC: Anything relating to the

2 hospital cannot be separated from what happened in

3 Celebici because this was a general situation. It is

4 the ambience in which everything happened.

5 JUDGE JAN: A much larger number was killed

6 and a much larger number of people were injured, how

7 would that help you in defending the charges against

8 your client? A lot of things happened in Konjic.

9 Everything is not relevant.

10 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Actually, try to

11 identify the situation in Konjic, is it? In the Konjic

12 Municipality? Is this what you are trying to

13 emphasise?

14 MR. KARABDIC: Right.

15 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: How does it assist you?

16 When you started, I was asking you how it all came

17 about because I really don't see.

18 JUDGE JAN: We have already evidence that

19 Konjic was shelled, a number of persons must have been

20 injured, a number of persons must have been killed.

21 How does that evidence now help you in defending the

22 charges against your client? Specific charges, what

23 happened in Celebici camp?

24 MR. KARABDIC: Among other things, he is

25 charged with inhumane conditions at Celebici and many

Page 11971

1 other things.

2 JUDGE JAN: In Celebici camp, how do these

3 things which happened in Konjic --

4 MR. KARABDIC: But these conditions here are

5 linked, to the situation in Celebici, to the condition

6 in Celebici, because the way things were in Konjic

7 could not be better than that in Celebici. We are

8 asked -- it seems like the standard has been set as if

9 there was a -- the conditions at Celebici should be

10 like in the Majo Clinic or some place, but they

11 couldn't have been any better than they were in Konjic.

12 JUDGE JAN: Confine yourself to your defence.

13 MR. KARABDIC: This is a fact. And this is

14 what we would like to show. I was also shelled in

15 Sarajevo and this is what we would like the court to

16 see. And the numbers that are here can illustrate

17 this, even though it was even worse than the way it

18 is -- it has been stated here. So I would like to be

19 allowed to show the witness this.

20 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Out of the shelling and

21 how many who are left and how many people were now in

22 the camp in Celebici? No, you may proceed, you may

23 proceed. But just -- it has nothing to do with your

24 defence as a whole.

25 MR. KARABDIC: Thank you, Your Honours. I

Page 11972

1 would like to have D-144-A (iv) 2/1. If that could be

2 shown to the witness.

3 THE REGISTRAR: The document is before the

4 witness.

5 MR. KARABDIC: Thank you. Let me ask the

6 question now.

7 Q. Is there a stamp of this hospital affixed to

8 this document?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Does it state here that Dr. Savo Mrkajic, or

11 the director of the hospital, was he director of the

12 hospital at the end of 1992?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Do you recognise his signature?

15 A. I recognise the signature and, yes, he was

16 the director.

17 Q. Are the data that are quoted in this document

18 correct?

19 A. Yes, they are correct.

20 Q. I tender this document as the defence -- as

21 defence evidence?

22 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: It's not his document,

23 is it? He didn't make it. It doesn't even come

24 from -- did it come from his hospital?

25 MR. KARABDIC: But it's from his hospital

Page 11973

1 where he is a director. He recognised the signature of

2 the former director and he recognised the stamp.

3 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: If it's from his

4 hospital, I suppose he can.


6 Q. Did you say that it is from your hospital?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. This is all, Your Honours. Thank you, Mr.

9 Jusufbegovic.

10 MR. KARABDIC: Your Honour, this witness is

11 also on our list of witnesses and we -- he has

12 testified to all the points that were relevant for your

13 Defence, so we are not going to be calling him during

14 the presentation of the defence for Mr. Hazim Delic.

15 Thank you.

16 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: I know he's on the list

17 of all of you and I expect you to take advantage of his

18 presence.

19 MS. McMURREY: We have no questions of this

20 witness, Your Honour.

21 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Thank you. Prosecution,

22 any questions? -- I mean cross-examination.

23 MR. TURONE: Thank you, Your Honour

24 Cross-examined by Mr. Turone.

25 Q. Good morning, Dr. Jusufbegovic, my name is

Page 11974

1 Giuliano Turone and I am an attorney for the

2 prosecution and I have some questions for you, if you

3 don't mind. Dr. Jusufbegovic, you member, I suppose

4 that you gave a statement to a representative of the

5 Defence in Konjic in June '96, isn't that true?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. You said in that prior statement that you

8 headed some negotiating committee, which had two

9 meetings with the Serbs, one in Bradina and one in

10 Repovci; is that correct?

11 A. That's correct.

12 Q. Can you please tell me who were the other

13 members of this negotiating committee, from your side

14 first? And who were the Serb counterparts?

15 A. Yes, these were for the most part, on our

16 side, even though, at that time, these were not two

17 different sides, but since you're asking me in this

18 way, on our side it was the local people from Repovci,

19 and on the other side was the locals from Bradina and

20 their main representative, who at that time who was

21 some kind of a deputy, was Mr. Savo Mrkajic.

22 Q. Thank you, doctor. And did Dr. Grubac and

23 (redacted) take part in the negotiations

24 sometimes or not?

25 A. No, they did not take part.

Page 11975

1 Q. Did Mr. Delalic ever join this negotiating

2 committee or any of these meetings? I mean, you said

3 in your previous statement that Delalic joined your

4 endeavours to keep the Serbs in Konjic; isn't that

5 true?

6 JUDGE JAN: They are two different things.

7 Persuading Serbs to stay in Konjic, probably is

8 different from taking part in the negotiations relating

9 to Bradina. Let's not mix up the two.

10 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Which is your real

11 question, whether Delalic was a member of the committee

12 or whether he --

13 MR. TURONE: Thank you, Your Honours.

14 Q. Did Delalic ever join this negotiating

15 committee or any of its meetings first?

16 JUDGE JAN: Relating to Bradina.

17 MR. TURONE: Yes.

18 A. Delalic was not in Bradina. He was

19 negotiating in Ostrozac which was a different locality

20 and he negotiated with Manigoda.

21 Q. Thank you. Let's go to the second point

22 then. You said in a prior statement that Delalic

23 joined in your endeavours to keep the Serbs in Konjic.

24 Which kind of a contribution did he give in this

25 sense?

Page 11976

1 MS. RESIDOVIC: The witness responded that he

2 had negotiated with Manigoda.

3 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: I think he might be able

4 to answer the question, not necessarily the same. Let

5 him answer. The witness can answer the question.

6 A. Zejnil Delalic was involved in negotiations

7 with Manigoda, as I stated. After that, they

8 surrendered their weapons and the entire village and

9 that whole area was very grateful to him. And to date,

10 they continue to live there and they have not been

11 harmed or touched.


13 Q. Thank you, Doctor. Am I correct that all

14 these efforts you are talking about and the

15 negotiations you took part in to maintain peace with

16 the Serb side, took place before the take-over of the

17 Celebici barracks?

18 A. It was certainly before.

19 Q. Thank you. You then said that the

20 negotiations were unfortunately unproductive and that

21 at some time in April a blockade was created in

22 Bradina; is that correct?

23 A. That is correct. The negotiations failed and

24 there was a blockade that was at the entrance of

25 Bradina, coming from Konjic.

Page 11977

1 Q. Dr. Jusufbegovic, during the negotiations or

2 right after they turned out to be unproductive, were

3 you ever threatened by anybody from the Serb side?

4 A. I personally was not.

5 Q. You also said, I believe, that the blockade

6 in Bradina was eliminated when Bradina was liberated

7 through a military operation, is that correct, that, as

8 far as you know, it was a joint operation carried on by

9 TO, HVO and MUP?

10 A. Yes, that is correct.

11 Q. Did anybody from Repovci take part in the

12 operation of Bradina, as far as you know?

13 A. I don't know.

14 MS. RESIDOVIC: I object. I think that we

15 must first establish whether the witness was present at

16 all because these are merely hypothetical questions.

17 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: He's cross-examining the

18 witness, so he can ask him questions which will induce

19 other questions. You may proceed.

20 MR. TURONE: Thank you, Your Honour.

21 Q. Doctor, were you a member of the TO at that

22 time or not?

23 A. No. I was never a member of any military

24 formation.

25 Q. Are you aware of some kind of coordination

Page 11978

1 carried on by Delalic during the Bradina operation?

2 A. No. Delalic had no role in liberating

3 Bradina.

4 Q. You are aware that --

5 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: You didn't listen to his

6 answer. You're talking about liberating Bradina. Your

7 question was a coordination responsibility. They are

8 not the same.

9 MR. TURONE: Yes.

10 Q. I asked whether you are aware that Delalic

11 had any coordination capacity during the Bradina

12 operation?

13 A. No. I said I didn't know that.

14 Q. Are you aware, in any case, that Delalic was

15 in the area of Bradina, on some hill, of the area from

16 which he could observe the action?

17 A. I don't know.

18 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: He has said it. He

19 doesn't know.


21 Q. Did you yourself, Dr. Jusufbegovic, have any

22 chance to go to the Bradina area during those days and

23 observe the military operation or not?

24 A. No.

25 Q. Dr. Jusufbegovic, you testified today that

Page 11979

1 right after the liberation of Bradina, Delalic rang you

2 up and told you about (redacted)

3 in Bradina. Is that correct that this telephone call

4 arrived very, very early in the morning on 27 May, so

5 the very morning after the operation in Bradina?

6 MS. RESIDOVIC: The witness had answered

7 already that that happened before dawn in the course of

8 the Bradina operation.

9 MR. TURONE: Your Honour, he didn't say

10 precisely which was the day.

11 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Perhaps the witness

12 might assist by answering the question.


14 Q. Is that correct, that it was very early in

15 the morning before dawn on May 27?

16 A. I think so. I think it happened that way.

17 Q. Doctor, you also said (redacted)

18 together with Delalic, when Delalic rang you up. Why

19 was (redacted) brought into the house of Delalic,

20 after having been arrested in Bradina?

21 A. He was taken there, that is, driven there by

22 Zebic, and I don't know why he was brought there,

23 probably to call me given our friendly relations with

24 those doctors.

25 Q. All right. (redacted)

Page 11980

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 A. I don't know that.

4 Q. Thank you. Is it correct that in this

5 telephone conversation, Delalic told you also something

6 about the participation or non-participation of people

7 from Repovci in the operation of Bradina?

8 A. No. The topic of our conversation relating

9 to Repovci was something to do with some food which was

10 supposed to go to those people in Repovci. We did not

11 discuss other matters relating to Repovci because the

12 talk we had was very short indeed.

13 Q. You said that after this telephone

14 conversation, (redacted)

15 centre and remained there a couple of days for

16 treatment. Do you know who actually drove him from the

17 house of Delalic to the medical centre?

18 A. No, I don't know that.

19 Q. During his stay at the medical centre for

20 treatment, (redacted)

21 A. No, God forbid.

22 Q. You mean he was free to leave the medical

23 centre? He was not a prisoner; is that your testimony?

24 A. No, he was not a prisoner. He was not

25 guarded by the army. He was in a ward where women were

Page 11981

1 accommodated. He could move around freely. No one

2 even considered him to be a prisoner. Mr. Delalic had

3 asked me to have him remain there to work there. This

4 was Mr. Delalic's request.

5 Q. You said this morning that he was arrested

6 and he was in state of prisoner when Delalic called you

7 that morning; isn't that true?

8 A. I don't know. I said that he had been

9 arrested already in Bradina or else where Dinko Zebic

10 freed him and brought him to Mr. Delalic.

11 Q. Do you mean that when he reached the medical

12 centre, he had already been released; is that what you

13 testify to?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. This morning you testified that he was

16 released at the end of July. That means that he was

17 arrested a second time; is that your testimony?

18 A. I would like to clarify this point. It was

19 then that we decided, that is, the presidency and the

20 health centre decided, that those who were injured and

21 who needed medical care, a unit should be opened in the

22 elementary school and that Dr. Zuza, (redacted)

23 Grubac should be there to care for the injured who were

24 accommodated there. From the hospital, he went to the

25 elementary school, the 3rd of March is the name of the

Page 11982

1 school, to help out.

2 Q. I'm sorry. It's not very clear for me. Are

3 you meaning that he was again arrested in order to send

4 him to the 3rd of March School to treat prisoners?

5 A. I don't understand your question.

6 Q. What I asked you a few minutes ago, Doctor,

7 since you said that after the telephone call from

8 Mr. Delalic, (redacted)

9 but he arrived there free and not as a prisoner because

10 he had been already released. My question was then,

11 when you say that he was released in late July, does

12 that mean that he was arrested for a second time, and

13 you have been answering me -- your answer was, "We

14 decided he had to treat prisoners at the medical

15 centre." Then my next question was: Does that mean

16 that he was again arrested in order to have him treat

17 prisoners at the 3rd of March School?

18 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Please, let's get it a

19 little clearer. Will you kindly ask him in what

20 condition he came to him at the hospital because he has

21 given evidence that he wasn't there under any

22 restraints, that he put him inside the female ward, in

23 the gynaecological ward, so let's get it step by step.

24 MR. TURONE: Yes. I'll repeat one of my

25 previous questions.

Page 11983

1 Q. Dr. Jusufbegovic, during his stay at the

2 medical centre for treatment, (redacted)

3 prisoner or a free person?

4 A. He was free, but what his status was

5 concerning the military authorities, I don't know. But

6 as my colleague, he had no guards to watch him, to look

7 after him. While he was there, he had the status of a

8 fully free man who was taken into custody, charged with

9 something that I was not responsible to know.

10 Q. Isn't it true that Delalic ordered

11 (redacted) to be brought to the medical centre instead

12 of back to prison?

13 A. That's not true. Delalic never ordered me at

14 all. He never ordered me. I simply mentioned that he

15 had requested this of me.

16 Q. Sorry. This was not my question, Doctor. My

17 question was: Isn't it true that Delalic ordered

18 (redacted) not you, to be brought to the medical

19 centre instead of back to prison?

20 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: The witness might not

21 know what was done. He barely met his colleague in

22 this hospital.

23 MR. TURONE: All right. I'll pass to another

24 point.

25 Q. You said in a prior statement, and you have

Page 11984

1 also repeated here, that since the other people in the

2 hospital would not have the doctors from Bradina

3 practise in the hospital, (redacted)

4 and Dr. Grubac would take care of the sick and wounded

5 Serbs in the 3rd of March School; is that correct?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Did you personally decide to send these two

8 doctors to the 3rd of March School?

9 A. Yes, with my colleague doctors.

10 Q. Do you know what was the status of the two

11 doctors when they were sent to the 3rd of March School,

12 whether they were free or prisoners?

13 A. They were prisoners.

14 Q. Did you have the power to issue such an order

15 to bring two prisoners to the 3rd of March School

16 instead of letting them go back to the prison?

17 A. I said that in the 3rd of March School, we

18 opened up a health unit, a medical unit. We, in fact,

19 selected amongst the injured and accommodated some of

20 them at this school. Since these doctors were together

21 with those prisoners, it was only natural that they

22 should care for them. That was my opinion and I think

23 I already expressed it.

24 Q. My question was: Did you have the power to

25 issue such an order concerning where a prisoner should

Page 11985

1 go?

2 A. I suggested, I proposed this as the best

3 possible solution to have these people accommodated in

4 this school and the proposal I put forward was

5 accepted.

6 Q. Yes, I agree with that entirely, but you

7 proposed, suggested that to whom?

8 A. I proposed this to the war presidency and via

9 the war presidency to the MUP.

10 Q. Dr. Jusufbegovic, you said that you visited

11 Celebici prison with Dr. Rusmir Hadzihuseinovic. Can

12 you say in which day did that happen, considering that

13 the Bradina operation took place on 25 and 26 of May?

14 A. I think that this happened when the operation

15 was over.

16 Q. Do you remember, can you say more precisely

17 whether it was after one day, two days or three days?

18 A. I think it was on the second day in the

19 afternoon hours, the second day in the afternoon hours.

20 Q. You mean the second day after the end of the

21 operation?

22 A. No. The second day after the beginning of

23 the operation, I think it was on the 27th, I think.

24 Q. Okay. Who let you in the camp when you got

25 there? Who allowed you and Rusmir to enter the camp to

Page 11986

1 this visit?

2 A. There were policemen from the MUP there.

3 Q. Can you say approximately how many patients

4 did you examine?

5 A. About 40 patients were examined.

6 Q. Could you describe briefly the conditions of

7 these approximately 40 persons you could visit there?

8 A. They were basically people suffering from

9 lighter physical injuries. Some, only, perhaps, two

10 were more seriously injured.

11 Q. You testified a few minutes ago during the

12 last cross-examination that a number of the prisoners

13 had injuries inflicted with blunt objects. Do you

14 agree with me that then you saw prisoners with evidence

15 of beating?

16 A. I said that these were injuries inflicted

17 through war activities and I am not an expert doctor

18 to, in fact, identify the way in which the injuries had

19 been inflicted.

20 Q. But do you agree with me that you have been

21 talking about blunt objects? Is that correct?

22 A. Under the term of "blunt objects", I mean all

23 injuries inflicted by objects that are not firearms.

24 Q. Okay. You said you see prisoners there with

25 different health problems, which kind of health

Page 11987

1 problems did you find besides what you said so far?

2 A. Well, amongst them, we had the people that we

3 examined. There were several people who suffered from

4 diabetes earlier on, who suffered from high blood

5 pressure. There were cardiac patients whom, for whom

6 we thought best to be isolated and placed in the 3rd of

7 March School.

8 Q. Did you write on a medical record, on any

9 kind of book, notes on the examination of the medical

10 examinations concerning the visit to prisoners?

11 A. Yes. There was the protocol where we would

12 have the name of visitor, the name, the date of birth

13 and the diagnosis, this is what we wrote down.

14 Q. And where would that book, that record, that

15 protocol be now?

16 A. No idea.

17 Q. So you were not in a position to find it?

18 A. I didn't even look for it.

19 Q. But if you should look for it, do you think

20 you might find it?

21 A. In my institution I cannot find any of the

22 records from the war because all of them were destroyed

23 by shelling and I cannot really even contemplate

24 finding a book that was destroyed six years prior.

25 Q. That's right, thank you. Besides writing

Page 11988

1 down in this protocol, what measures did you take after

2 these visits?

3 A. Well, the measure was to have these people

4 accommodated in the 3rd of March Schools, so as to

5 provide them complete medical care, under the existing

6 circumstances.

7 Q. All right. And did you speak with anybody in

8 charge of the prison, in this occasion?

9 A. No.

10 Q. Do you know who was the commander of the camp

11 when you and Rusmir was there?

12 A. I think it was run by the MUP and the name of

13 the person in charge I think was Musinovic,

14 nicknamed Rale -- Miralem, I'm sorry.

15 Q. Who was the deputy commander as far as you

16 know?

17 A. I don't know.

18 Q. Do you know Mr. Pavo Mucic?

19 A. Yes, I know Pavo Mucic.

20 Q. Was he present there during these visits

21 inside Celebici?

22 A. No, no, I didn't see him there. It was

23 the -- only that one time that I was in Celebici.

24 Q. And do you know, Mr. Hazim Delic?

25 MS. RESIDOVIC: He has already answered that

Page 11989

1 question.


3 Q. I don't know whether he said or not whether

4 Mr. Delic was there during these visits?

5 A. I didn't see him then.

6 Q. Okay, thank you. I understand that you said

7 just now, that you were in Celebici only this time and

8 no other time, is that correct? Did you go there any

9 other time?

10 A. Only on that occasion, as far as the

11 prisoners were concerned. I was there once again in

12 August during the swearing in ceremony where I was

13 invited and many other people during that ceremonial

14 occasion, but I had nothing to do with the prisoners

15 there because they were separated.

16 Q. All right, thank you. Besides what you said

17 about the visit you've done, was any prisoner from

18 Celebici ever brought to the Konjic hospital for

19 medical treatment, and not meaning the 3rd March

20 School?

21 A. No. Only two patients, only two patients

22 during our first commission proposal, examination that

23 is, those that were more seriously injured, they needed

24 to be treated, that actually a cast was applied and

25 then this person was sent to the 3rd of March School

Page 11990

1 and under other circumstances they weren't treated

2 there.

3 Q. You said two patients, I believe. Can you

4 remember the names of them?

5 A. One name I can remember, the other I cannot

6 remember.

7 Q. And you don't remember what were the

8 conditions even of the other patient?

9 A. I think that he had a superficial injury on

10 his leg. It was only a question of stitching and then

11 he could continue to be treated in that place, which I

12 mentioned.

13 Q. You testified that Delalic rang you up again

14 in late July, requesting your help in order to have Dr.

15 Grubac (redacted) released. And you said you went

16 around all the possible authorities, insisting that the

17 Doctors be released. So who were the authorities in

18 charge of the prison at that time?

19 A. I had said that I went to the persons who

20 were in positions of authority, which were certain

21 members in the HVO administration, who were in the

22 military structures as leading persons, commander of

23 the civilian defence, this is who I was referring to

24 and this is what I also did.

25 Q. Were there many persons you got in touch with

Page 11991

1 in order to find a way?

2 A. Yes, I did.

3 Q. Can you list them?

4 A. There were so many of them that I could not

5 name them all.

6 Q. At least the authorities, the institutions,

7 the offices they represented.

8 A. For instance, the chief of civilian

9 protection, his name was Dautbegovic and he was a

10 member of some other bodies too, I guess.

11 Q. I see you cannot list all the people. Were

12 they or some of them authorities in charge of the

13 prison, having the power to release prisoners?

14 A. Unfortunately, the president of the military

15 investigative commission, Mr. Goran Lokas was no longer

16 there, he had already left. I wanted to find someone

17 from that commission because, I guess, they were

18 responsible for it, but I had never found anyone.

19 Q. You testified this morning that all these

20 different people you got in touch with could not give

21 you -- I am quoting -- could not give you the records

22 which could make possible the release of the doctors.

23 Do you agree with me, then, that you went around all

24 possible authorities, but could not find any being

25 really in charge of the prison among all the persons

Page 11992

1 you've been talking with?

2 A. Yes, within that circle, precisely. I could

3 not find anyone who was directly responsible.

4 Q. So then you testified that -- we don't need

5 to repeat what you said in direct -- you testified that

6 it was Delalic himself who signed the release order for

7 the two doctors. Well, do you agree with me that the

8 prison personnel actually released the two doctors

9 based on the release documents signed by Delalic;

10 didn't they?

11 A. He did not sign it, but he actually put a

12 signature down on behalf of someone.

13 Q. I mean, I mean it is a fact that the release

14 order signed that way was actually enforced without any

15 problem; is that correct?

16 A. Of course it was enforced, the doctors were

17 released.

18 Q. Isn't it true, Doctor, that Delalic ordered

19 Grubac (redacted) to continue taking care of the

20 injured prisoners in Celebici?

21 JUDGE JAN: You're using the word "order".

22 Ask him if it was an order or if it was a request.

23 MR. TURONE: Well, I am talking about a

24 release order. And I am asking, this is my question.

25 Isn't it true that Delalic ordered that Dr. Grubac and

Page 11993

1 (redacted) continued taking care of the injured

2 prisoners in Celebici after their release; is that what

3 happened?

4 A. No, that is not correct. Because I was the

5 one who made agreement with Dr. Petko, for instance,

6 for Dr. Petko to go and take vacation for a while. And

7 with (redacted)to continue to work and provide care

8 for the prisoners at Celebici.

9 Q. All right. But do you agree with me that Mr.

10 Delalic wrote on the release order that must continue

11 to take care of injured prisoners, didn't he?

12 A. That is not correct. That is, I cannot

13 confirm that specifically. When -- I don't know

14 whether it was myself or Mr. Zejnil Delalic, I am not

15 sure of this, but we put down all the information and

16 this was my initiative, that these two physicians would

17 continue to provide medical care for these prisoners.

18 Now, who added language, I don't know if it was myself,

19 whether it was Mr. Delalic or whether it was one of my

20 staff who did this.

21 JUDGE JAN: According to him, the order was

22 typed in his office.

23 MR. TURONE: Yes, and prepared there. So

24 this is why I would like --

25 JUDGE JAN: He was the authority to give such

Page 11994

1 a direction.


3 Q. So anyway, may I ask that this document,

4 Exhibit 169, be shown to the witness, please. Do you

5 find this writing, "Will continue to take care of the

6 injured prisoners," do you see it?

7 A. Yes, I do.

8 Q. And do you agree with me that that was

9 written by Mr. Delalic?

10 A. I disagree because the handwriting is very

11 similar to mine, but it is not mine, so I cannot say

12 specifically that Mr. Delalic wrote it. It is possible

13 that I had written it or he did or one of my staff.

14 Because this handwriting here is very similar to my

15 own. In fact, I could now give you a sample of mine.

16 So I am not sure, this is what I am saying, I am not

17 sure who wrote this.

18 Q. But you could please look better. Could you

19 say if this is your handwriting? Think it over

20 quietly, please, and tell us.

21 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: It is too fleeting for

22 one to be able to --

23 MS. RESIDOVIC: Objection, Your Honour, the

24 witness already answered the question.

25 MR. TURONE: All right. I would not press it

Page 11995

1 then.

2 Q. Dr. Jusufbegovic, is that correct that after

3 they are released, you personally told the two doctors

4 the reasons why they couldn't work in the hospital of

5 Konjic any more?

6 A. The situation was very difficult because from

7 our physicians, that is the medical staff --

8 Q. I understand that. But my question is, did

9 you personally told them the reasons for which they

10 couldn't work any more in the hospital, after they are

11 released?

12 A. I talked to them and I explained to them

13 those things which they were aware of. Because a

14 mother and a daughter of one of our physicians, a

15 mother and a sister, sorry. A mother and a sister were

16 killed at the Borci and this physician worked there,

17 then I talked to Petko and Relja and they were aware of

18 this. And I said it would be awkward for me and for

19 both of you if you continue to work there. And this

20 doctor whose mother and sister were killed, never

21 changed his attitude towards patients after that.

22 There was also a member of the medical staff whose

23 cousin was killed, who was a member of the HVO, and

24 they continued to work there. So I had to take a

25 position so that I would not put myself or these two

Page 11996

1 doctors into an awkward position.

2 Q. That's enough for me, Doctor. Did Grubac or

3 (redacted) ever provide you with a list of sick prisoners

4 any time when they were taking care of sick prisoners?

5 A. They did not.

6 Q. Did any of them ever request hospital

7 treatment for any prisoners, during the time they were

8 taking care of prisoners as free persons already, or

9 before that time?

10 A. No, neither before nor after.

11 Q. Did any of them ever mention to you abuses or

12 mistreatment of prisoners in Celebici?

13 A. No.

14 Q. Is it your testimony that from May to

15 December, '92, you heard no report, no information

16 whatsoever about possible mistreatment of detainees in

17 Celebici?

18 A. Yes, it is my statement that I never received

19 any kind of warning or notice, either in writing or

20 verbally.

21 Q. Did you ever see, on television, Mr. Delalic

22 interviewed on television about either reports or

23 rumours of mistreatment in Celebici?

24 A. No.

25 Q. You also said, certainly in prior statements,

Page 11997

1 I don't know whether today as well, that Mr. Delalic

2 did not, as far as you knew, have a position of

3 superiority regarding the Celebici prison; do you

4 confirm that?

5 A. He had no authority over anyone, Mr. Delalic

6 did, including the prison.

7 Q. So if you're so sure about that, I presume

8 that you are in a position to know who did have

9 superior authority over the prison; is that correct or

10 not?

11 A. I guess it would have been the MUP. I don't

12 know. It was not my area of expertise, but I assume it

13 was the MUP.

14 Q. Then we have no other information about this

15 issue. You don't know then to who the camp commander

16 reported, et cetera; is that correct? .

17 A. I don't know.

18 Q. You said something en person about the

19 appointment of Mr. Delalic as commander of TG-1. Was

20 there any sanitary department created within Tactical

21 Group 1?

22 JUDGE JAN: What department?


24 Q. Did a sanitary department exist within,

25 inside the organisation of Tactical Group 1, as far as

Page 11998

1 you know?

2 A. I think there was none.

3 Q. Thank you. Was blood ever taken from

4 prisoners either in Celebici or Musala?

5 A. Who are you referring to, taken from whom?

6 Q. Blood for transfusions?

7 A. We do not have a blood unit. We received all

8 our supplies through the Red Cross and other

9 institutions. We never had that service ourselves.

10 Q. Do you know a man by the name of Emir

11 Kovacic?

12 A. Yes, I do.

13 Q. Can you tell us who is this person?

14 A. Emir Kovacic is Emir Kovacic. For a while, he

15 worked as a gate keeper at our organisation, at our

16 institution there.

17 Q. Do you mean the health centre?

18 A. Yes, of the health centre or the hospital.

19 Q. Let me go on to another issue,

20 Dr. Jusufbegovic. Do you agree with me that you had a

21 meeting with Delalic and other people on Mount Zvekoca

22 (phoen) on 10 or 11 July '92, during Operation Borci?

23 A. I did not have a meeting with Mr. Delalic. I

24 had a task. What I was concerned with was to prevent

25 any kind of epidemic. So whenever I had any free time,

Page 11999

1 I would go and visit the front-lines. Our disease

2 control person who was a woman of Serb descent had

3 left, so I was in charge of disease prevention. So

4 what I did was I visited all lines that we had because

5 we were especially concerned of the outbreak of

6 haemorrhagic fever. So I went to Cerovac, Pirkic and

7 other commanders, Ajanovic, and I was telling them what

8 steps they should take because sometimes their water

9 supplies would be there, stationary, for several days,

10 so I told them what tablets to put in. We wanted to

11 prevent this haemorrhagic fever disease from breaking

12 out which was passed through rodents. And at Vranske

13 Stijene, I remember seeing Mr. Delalic. He was there

14 the entire month of July. This was not a prearranged

15 meeting. This was just during one of my regular visits

16 there.

17 Q. You would agree with me that on 14 July, '94,

18 you gave an informative interview about that meeting,

19 that situation, your visit to Vranske Stijene and Mount

20 Zvekoca to members of the Mostar Security Service?

21 A. No. Nobody ever talked to me, nor did I give

22 any statement either official or unofficial to anyone

23 from Mostar or anyone from Konjic.

24 Q. I can give you the name of these two members,

25 Nedzad Avdic and/or Nenad Pribisic.

Page 12000

1 A. I hear these names for the first time. I

2 would really like to see this document, if I may.

3 MR. TURONE: I beg your pardon. Just one

4 moment, Your Honours. Thank you, Your Honour. My

5 cross-examination is finished.

6 Thank you very much, Dr. Jusufbegovic.

7 THE WITNESS: Thank you.

8 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Any re-examination on

9 your part?

10 MS. RESIDOVIC: Just very briefly.

11 Re-examined by Ms. Residovic

12 Q. Doctor, could you please remember, regarding

13 the negotiations which you said as a local man from

14 Repovci you conducted with your counterparts in

15 Bradina, can you recall what month it was? Was it

16 before the fighting in Bradina?

17 A. Yes, this was much, much before the fighting

18 in Bradina and maybe even on the eve of the fighting

19 because there were several meetings that were held. I

20 think that they were in February and in March.

21 Q. Doctor, did you also have similar discussions

22 with your neighbours in Bradina in the month of May?

23 A. Yes, this was also in May, but I said that we

24 started these discussions much earlier. It first

25 regarded the building of a road, and only later when

Page 12001

1 these neighbourly relations had deteriorated, these

2 became the topics. So there were several official and

3 then several unofficial meetings, but I was part of

4 these more unofficial meetings, but the authorities

5 also held official meetings.

6 Q. Thank you, Doctor. You also said that

7 Mr. Delalic at some period of time also tried to ease

8 the tension. Can you tell me where these Manigoda

9 live?

10 A. The Manigoda are from the village of

11 Ostrozac, and they live in the village by the same name

12 because they are a large family and they are very

13 honourable, very honourable people.

14 Q. So this was Ostrozac. Can you tell me where

15 Mr. Zejnil Delalic was born?

16 A. Mr. Zejnil Delalic was born in Ostrozac.

17 Q. So are these Manigodas neighbours of

18 Mr. Delalic?

19 A. Yes.

20 MS. RESIDOVIC: Thank you, Doctor. I have no

21 further questions.

22 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: This concludes the

23 examination of this witness. Thank you very much,

24 Dr. Jusufbegovic. You've been quite helpful and thank

25 you for your assistance. You are discharged now.

Page 12002

1 (The witness withdrew)

2 MS. RESIDOVIC: Your Honours, I have a

3 request. I would like to call the next witness after

4 the break and I would now like to submit the shortened

5 list which we had promised earlier. Maybe we can

6 extend the break for these five, six additional minutes

7 because we would like to use this time to submit the

8 list to you, if that is all right with you.

9 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Yes, I think we'll take

10 a break now and resume at 4.30. But you shall keep to

11 the warning that you don't duplicate the witnesses

12 you've been calling because, as far as everyone is

13 concerned, perhaps if you ask some the conditions in

14 Celebici, that might make a difference, and then we

15 know where we go from there. Because you have quite a

16 number on the role and responsibility except, of

17 course, you still have one or two, but definitely we'll

18 hear what you -- the next witness you are trying to

19 call. If it is relevant in light of what has already

20 been done, then we'll allow it.

21 MS. RESIDOVIC: Thank you.

22 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: The Trial Chamber will

23 rise and assemble at 4.30.

24 --- Recess taken at 3.56 p.m.

25 --- On resuming at 4.35 p.m.

Page 12003

1 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Yes, Ms. Residovic, I

2 think we're still -- you are still on, I think we're

3 still expecting you to call your next witness. Who are

4 you presenting as your next witness?

5 MS. RESIDOVIC: The name is Dzevad Pasic.

6 And, if you recall, there was a videotape from Vranske

7 Stijene and the witnesses, the chief of the artillery,

8 member of the municipal staff and the TO. Can I please

9 call in the witness now?

10 (The witness entered court)

11 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Kindly swear the

12 witness.

13 THE WITNESS: I solemnly declare to speak the

14 truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth.


16 Q. Mr. Pasic, could you please introduce

17 yourself to the court by stating your full name and sir

18 name?

19 A. My name is Dzevad Pasic.

20 Q. Mr. Pasic, before we -- I start examining

21 you, I would like to advise you of a technical matter.

22 You and I speak the same language and it would be quite

23 normal for you to answer my questions immediately.

24 However, since our conversation must be translated,

25 please wait until you hear the end of the translation

Page 12004

1 in your earphones and then respond to my questions and,

2 therefore, in this way, everyone in the court, the

3 judges, and everyone else will be able to follow. Did

4 you understand this?

5 A. Yes, I did.

6 Q. Mr. Pasic, can you tell us where and when you

7 were born?

8 A. I was born in Jablanica, 28th of August,

9 1954.

10 Q. What is your nationality and citizenship?

11 A. I am a Bosnian and Herzegovinian, that is a

12 Muslim Bosniak.

13 Q. Mr. Pasic, can you tell us something about

14 your education, what schools have you completed and

15 attended?

16 A. Well, I finished my elementary school in

17 Konjic, in Sarajevo. My secondary transportation

18 school. And in the former JNA, I finished the school

19 of reserve offices in Zadar.

20 Q. What is your present occupation, Mr. Pasic?

21 A. I am an officer of the army of the

22 federation.

23 Q. Mr. Pasic, can you tell this court where and

24 what sort of positions did you occupy in April of 1992

25 when the war started in Bosnia Herzegovina?

Page 12005

1 A. Immediately prior to the outbreak of the war,

2 I had a private company, a private business. I dealt

3 in commercial activity. And when the war actually

4 broke out, I was in the municipal staff in Konjic. I

5 was a head -- chief of the artillery, that was my first

6 duty, and I stayed in that post practically the whole

7 of 1992.

8 Q. Mr. Pasic, were you ever at some point in

9 time a member of the joint command of the Territorial

10 Defence and the HVO?

11 A. Yes, of course. When the joint command was

12 formed in the month of May, I became, once again, head

13 -- chief of the artillery on behalf of the Territorial

14 Defence. This happened on May 18th.

15 Q. Mr. Pasic, as a member of the TO, did you

16 take part in the Oranj Operation?

17 A. Yes, I did.

18 Q. In which parts of the municipality did this

19 military operation take place?

20 A. It was along, upstream the Neretva River

21 (phoen) and south-east of a town towards the positions

22 of the Chetniks. That is where they were stationed and

23 from where they were shelling our town.

24 Q. What is your -- what was your duty in the

25 course of the Oranj Operation?

Page 12006

1 A. In the course of the Oranj Operation, my duty

2 was to prepare and conduct combat activity, along with

3 the artillery with which we disposed at the time.

4 Q. Who at the time commanded the, in command --

5 who was in command of the artillery during that

6 military operation?

7 A. I commanded the -- the artillery during the

8 military operation in question. I was in charge of the

9 shooting activities. Of course, I was subordinated to

10 my commanders.

11 Q. And who was your superior commander, the

12 commander of the Operation Oganj?

13 A. It was Esad Ramic and after him Cerovac.

14 Q. Mr. Pasic, do you know whether Mr. Zejnil

15 Delalic had taken part in the Oranj Operation?

16 A. As far as I know, he took part in the Oranj

17 Operation. I think he was in Vranske Stijene, in one

18 of our intermediary stations. That means the radio

19 relay actually, station, which was used to convey

20 information because our operation covered a large

21 area. So, in that operation, he, he distributed,

22 actually issued orders and occasionally he was also

23 tasked with logistic matters in the course of that

24 operation.

25 Q. You have, Mr. Pasic, just said that this was

Page 12007

1 a relay station due to the need for communication.

2 Tell us, since, perhaps, the Chamber is not aware of

3 this fully, although they have seen films of the area,

4 can you tell us something about the geography of that

5 area?

6 JUDGE JAN: You already had that information

7 from the -- already in this area, that's what he said.

8 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: And Chamber might --

9 MS. RESIDOVIC: I have no translation, Your

10 Honour.

11 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Perhaps, I am saying it

12 might be suggested that the Trial Chamber by its --

13 have a visit of the "locals" to familiarise ourselves

14 with the mountainous nature of the area.

15 JUDGE JAN: Colonel Cerovac has already told

16 us about the nature of the town there.

17 MS. RESIDOVIC: Since the person witnessed

18 the event and since the Prosecutor showed his position

19 on the film, I thought it would be good to hear him,

20 but since it is not a disputed issue, I don't have to

21 repeat the question.

22 Q. Mr. Pasic, can you tell me how far it was the

23 place where Mr. Delalic was located, from the positions

24 of the artillery?

25 A. I can say this approximately, that is between

Page 12008

1 8 and 10 kilometres, the front line of the artillery

2 and the relay station in Vranske Stijene.

3 Q. Mr. Pasic, as head of the artillery, during

4 the month of this operation, could Mr. Delalic issue

5 you orders during that period of time?

6 A. No, under no circumstance.

7 Q. Mr. Pasic, at any point of time during that

8 operation, did Mr. Delalic, in respect of you, was he a

9 superior authority?

10 A. No.

11 Q. Since you were on the front lines, do you

12 know whether -- during that time in Konjic, whether

13 there existed the function of a regional commander, did

14 that post exist?

15 A. As far as I know, it didn't.

16 Q. During the period from the beginning of the

17 war to the forming of the fourth corps, did such a

18 function exist in the municipality of Konjic?

19 A. No.

20 Q. Since you were a member of the municipal

21 staff, from your own personal experience, do you know

22 if at any time Mr. Delalic was a member or commander of

23 the municipal staff?

24 A. No.

25 JUDGE JAN: You're just repeating the same

Page 12009

1 question. Hadzihuseinovic has already told us and

2 nobody could be more informative on the subject than

3 Hadzihuseinovic.

4 MS. RESIDOVIC: Your Honour, the members of

5 the staff and the joint command, they know who their

6 colleagues were.

7 JUDGE JAN: You got the information right

8 from the head of the institution. Why duplicate the

9 same evidence?

10 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: This is likely what all

11 others would come to say because it still comes to the

12 same thing. At least when you are organising your

13 defence you don't understand, we pointed out quite

14 clearly yesterday the management of the trial rests

15 with the Trial Chamber. We tell you areas which we

16 think are irrelevant and repetitious, and we do not

17 think it is necessary to insist that those

18 irrelevancies should be accepted.

19 MS. RESIDOVIC: I fully agree with you. You

20 can always put a stop to any of my questions. I shall

21 not go into the jurisdiction of the court.

22 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Our problem is that it

23 will finally cost the administration a lot of money,

24 because when you go about inviting witnesses and the

25 registry pays for them and they come and repeat what

Page 12010

1 others have said, it just doesn't make sense. Why

2 should the administration pay so much for irrelevancies

3 which will not be taken into account? That is why one

4 is suggesting to you to look afresh and see the

5 relevance.

6 As I said, since you found it difficult to

7 know the real areas which are truly relevant for your

8 case, the Trial Chamber will give you your list of

9 witnesses according to what you have given which are

10 relevant for your Defence. Carry on, at least with

11 this witness. At the end of the day, we'll know what

12 to do.

13 MS. RESIDOVIC: I shall continue. There are

14 Prosecution exhibits with regard to the role of Delalic

15 during the Oganj Operation. We are just bringing

16 witnesses to speak to his role in that operation. He

17 said that no regional commander existed, so I would

18 like to just show you some facts to assess them.

19 JUDGE JAN: He said there were no district

20 commands; there were no regional commands. Therefore,

21 the TO of Konjic was placed directly under the supreme

22 command because there was no district commands, no

23 regional commands. The whole thing was in the process

24 of being built up, but at that time there were no

25 district commands; there were no regional commands.

Page 12011

1 The supreme command in Sarajevo was directly giving the

2 orders to the municipal TO. We already have evidence

3 on that --

4 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

5 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Because he's the

6 Prosecution witness you don't rely on his evidence, but

7 we do.

8 JUDGE JAN: You can rely on the Prosecution's

9 own evidence in this regard.

10 MS. RESIDOVIC: Well, I will rely on them

11 very much, and that is what we stated in our request.

12 But since the level of suspicion is such, we must

13 invite our witnesses to dissipate such suspicions, and

14 it is for that purpose that we have invited these

15 witnesses.

16 JUDGE JAN: You should not rely upon the

17 suspicion of the Prosecution. You have to satisfy us.

18 If there is evidence already, why repeat it?

19 Particularly when it comes from the witnesses produced

20 by the Prosecution.

21 MS. RESIDOVIC: I have not heard what you

22 have just said. I hadn't any translation.

23 JUDGE JAN: What I said was that if the

24 Prosecution witnesses have said something on which you

25 can rely, do that because that is -- how can the

Page 12012

1 Prosecution disown its own witnesses or their

2 testimony? But we have on this command structure, you

3 didn't have any -- this gentleman told us there were no

4 regional or district commands at that time. Therefore,

5 the supreme command in Sarajevo directly gave orders to

6 the municipal TO in Konjic. Why repeat that evidence?

7 You can rely upon what their own witnesses said.

8 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: I will be surprised if

9 any witness would say something different from Pasalic

10 or Deviet (phoen). I'm sure they are stating the

11 correct information.

12 MS. RESIDOVIC: Glad to hear this, Your

13 Honours, and I suppose people who were there can

14 confirm the truth of this, but my problem has always

15 been that other evidence has been admitted by the court

16 not only General Pasalic's, and he speaks in a

17 different manner. So as to support the statements of

18 General Pasalic, we have called witnesses. So evidence

19 such as for you to view that there must be prima facie,

20 and we hope that you will have a better understanding

21 when you hear our witnesses.

22 But after our last witness, you could see

23 that I don't want to broaden the issue. It is only to

24 focus on the facts that still cause some suspicion.

25 That is why I abided by the suggestions given to us by

Page 12013

1 Your Honours during yesterday's conference, and I shall

2 continue along those lines.

3 JUDGE JAN: We said yesterday no duplication,

4 triplication of the evidence, and you don't need to

5 support the evidence of the Prosecution's own witness,

6 particularly when he was the commander of the fourth

7 corps, a member, and he was already in the fighting in

8 Mostar during the earlier months. We should know what

9 the structure of the army was during the relevant

10 period.

11 MS. RESIDOVIC: Thank you.

12 Q. Mr. Pasic, since we have clarified your role

13 in the Oganj Operation, and I think that the facts have

14 been clarified sufficiently, I'm not going to ask you

15 any more questions about that operation and about the

16 role of Zejnil Delalic in it.

17 However, I'm going to ask you whether you

18 know as a member of the joint command who at that time

19 was the head of the anti-aircraft defence in the joint

20 command and in the TO?

21 A. Yes, I know. It was Enver Redzepovic.

22 Q. Do you know whether at any point after he

23 became the head of the anti-aircraft defence

24 Mr. Redzepovic was either relieved of his duty or

25 changed his position?

Page 12014

1 A. As far as I know, he did not.

2 Q. Mr. Pasic, can you tell me whether you know

3 if Zejnil Delalic at any period of time in 1992,

4 according to the information that you have, at the time

5 when he had no command role whatsoever was still

6 engaged in assisting the struggle with his own personal

7 means?

8 A. Yes, I know that what is the most

9 characteristic is that with his own personal means, he

10 bought a 130-millimetre gun, and I was present there at

11 the event when he gave the money to a man whose

12 nickname was Srna.

13 Q. Since you were a soldier then and you're

14 still a soldier now, this assistance which Mr. Delalic

15 provided to the defence forces, was it a significant

16 kind of help for the defence forces?

17 A. At that time, any assistance was extremely

18 useful to us, so that was very useful to us as well.

19 JUDGE JAN: Is it the same gun that the TO

20 refused to give to Delalic when he asked for it?


22 Q. Do you personally know with respect to this

23 gun, and the court already has information that this

24 gun was nicknamed Sultan, so was there any problem with

25 the HVO regarding this gun?

Page 12015

1 A. When this gun arrived on that very day and I

2 was present when this money was counted, members of the

3 HVO took away the spare parts and tools, so the sights,

4 there were the cleaning equipment and other things

5 which were necessary for the gun to function. So, they

6 simply took it off the truck and took it somewhere

7 away. I did not see this, but a lot of people came to

8 see this gun, both military and civilians, but I was

9 not there. I know that after that there were certain

10 problems arose.

11 Q. Did the security body of the municipal staff

12 take some measures against certain members of the HVO?

13 A. Of course. The security authorities forbid

14 them to approach our warehouses because they thought

15 that if they had taken this away we couldn't use that

16 gun.

17 Q. Very well, Mr. Pasic, we will move on to

18 another area. Do you whether Mr. Zejnil Delalic at,

19 some time in 1992, was appointed a commander?

20 A. Yes. After the Oganj Operation, so it was in

21 later July or early August, I heard that he was

22 appointed to the position of the commander of Tactical

23 Group 1. This is what I have heard.

24 Q. Was this gun called Sultan, part of the

25 artillery weapons which you commanded over?

Page 12016

1 A. Yes. It became a weapon of the municipal

2 staff. I was commander of the joint, that is, mixed

3 artillery division, but it belonged to the municipal

4 staff.

5 Q. Mr. Pasic, after the request to transfer this

6 gun to the Tactical Group, a conflict broke out with

7 the municipal staff. Can you tell me whether you know

8 from your personal experience that you yourself and the

9 municipal staff did not want to turn this gun over to

10 Tactical Group 1?

11 A. Yes, there were problems over this.

12 Personally as a commander, I had a problem because --

13 JUDGE JAN: Ultimately, the dispute was

14 referred to the supreme commander and he said that he

15 directed that the gun should be given to TG-1. We

16 already have evidence on that. You can ask him whether

17 when all formations were placed at the disposal of

18 TG-1, was his unit also placed under this command? You

19 can ask him that.


21 Q. You have understood His Honour's comment. Is

22 it true that you turned this gun over after Commander

23 Sefer Halilovic ordered it be turned over; is that

24 correct?

25 A. Yes.

Page 12017

1 Q. Can you tell me even though, Mr. Pasic, you

2 turned this gun over, was your combined artillery

3 division subordinate to Mr. Zejnil Delalic as commander

4 of Tactical Group 1, that is, to the command of

5 Tactical Group 1?

6 A. No. My division was subordinate to the

7 municipal staff of the Konjic defence forces.

8 Q. Mr. Pasic, did you personally as a soldier

9 and member of the Territorial Defence of Konjic at any

10 time subordinate to Mr. Zejnil Delalic as commander of

11 Tactical Group 1?

12 A. No.

13 Q. Mr. Pasic, were you at any other time under

14 any other commander subordinate to the commander of

15 Tactical Group 1?

16 A. No.

17 Q. Mr. Pasic, do you know that a number of

18 soldiers of the Gijret unit were subordinate to the

19 Tactical Group 1 in the month of June?

20 A. Yes, I do know that. I think this was in the

21 month of June during the first attempt at lifting the

22 siege of Sarajevo.

23 Q. After the first attempt at lifting the siege

24 was over, do you know under whose command the soldiers

25 who came back from Konjic were placed?

Page 12018

1 A. The soldiers were going back to the original

2 units from which they came and they were sent to other

3 tasks. That included the Tactical Group.

4 Q. Mr. Pasic, do you know that after the combat

5 operations at Bradina, a certain number of persons who

6 took part in the fighting were detained and taken to

7 the Celebici barracks?

8 A. Yes, I have heard about that.

9 Q. Can you tell me whether any person whom you

10 knew was detained and taken to the Celebici barracks?

11 A. Yes. I knew several persons who apparently

12 were in Celebici. Members of their families came to me

13 asking me to try to find out what happened to them; for

14 instance, Ranko Glogovac was one of them.

15 Q. Mr. Pasic, did you do something at that time?

16 A. I did what I could. I thought that my duty

17 as a human being was to try to help because I thought

18 that not all people were either armed or Chetniks, and

19 I specifically helped Ranko. I grew up with Goran

20 Lokas and I asked him to have him released. Several

21 days later, I saw that he had come home.

22 Q. Can you remember when this was?

23 A. This was approximately late May or early

24 June.

25 Q. Mr. Pasic, can you please tell me whether in

Page 12019

1 your artillery division combined, as you said it was

2 called, whether Mladen Zebic was also there?

3 A. No. He was in the joint staff so he was my

4 deputy, in fact.

5 Q. Can you tell me, was he in any way connected

6 to the theft of the spare parts and tools for the

7 Sultan?

8 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: These questions, what

9 are they about? What are these questions intended to

10 establish?

11 MS. RESIDOVIC: Certain documents presented

12 here were actually propaganda against Zejnil, and I'm

13 laying the foundation for showing that they were

14 propaganda. Since this witness can elucidate some

15 aspects of it, I wanted him to talk to some of the

16 elements which he can speak to, but if you believe that

17 this issue has been sufficiently clarified, the witness

18 need not answer.

19 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Yes, and towards the

20 case of his defence. That's all we are interested in.

21 MS. RESIDOVIC: I believe that the

22 Prosecution may have also relied on certain documents

23 which were part of this smearing campaign. We would

24 like to show in defence of our client that he was

25 framed on those issues.

Page 12020

1 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: (Microphone not on)

2 MS. RESIDOVIC: Thank you.

3 Q. Mr. Pasic, I would also like to ask you

4 whether you know, given the position that you occupied,

5 whether Mr. Zejnil Delalic, either as coordinator or

6 commander of Tactical Group 1, had any authority over

7 the Celebici barracks and prison?

8 A. From what I know, he had no authority. It

9 would have been impossible for him to have had any.

10 Q. Mr. Pasic, on the basis of your personal

11 knowledge, do you know whether any guard at the

12 Celebici barracks was a member of Tactical Group 1,

13 whether during the tenure of Mr. Polutak or Mr.

14 Delalic?

15 A. I really could not speak to that.

16 MS. RESIDOVIC: Very well, Mr. Pasic, this

17 concludes my questions.

18 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Any cross-examination of

19 this witness?

20 MR. OLUJIC: Your Honours, at this point,

21 no. However, with your kind permission, maybe after

22 reviewing all the relevant documents, we may have a

23 couple of questions on Monday of this witness.

24 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: After he has been

25 charged, is it? After he has been discharged as a

Page 12021

1 witness? Any cross-examination of him?

2 MR. KARABDIC: Defence of Hazim Delic has no

3 questions in cross-examination of this witness.

4 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: The prosecution any

5 questions?

6 MS. McMURREY: Excuse me, Your Honour, the

7 defence of Esad Landzo has no questions of this witness

8 either.

9 MR. NIEMANN: Mr. Pasic, you say some of the

10 people detained in Bradina were taken to the Celebici

11 barracks, who detained them?

12 JUDGE JAN: First ask him who arrested them.

13 MR. NIEMANN: Arrest or detained.

14 Q. Who arrested them? Do you know who arrested

15 them?

16 A. I did not say that these persons were

17 detained in Bradina.

18 Q. No, neither did I. I'm sorry, I think

19 there's been a confusion. You mentioned that people

20 who -- I think you used the word detained in Bradina

21 were sent to Celebici, but people who were arrested in

22 Bradina, if the word "arrested" is correct, they were

23 taken to Celebici, who arrested them?

24 A. I was talking about Ranko Glogovac. He was

25 at Donje Selo that is where he was found. And that is

Page 12022

1 where he was arrested and taken to Celebici. And I

2 believe that it was the MUP who took him there.

3 Q. And they arrested him and took him there?

4 A. That is correct.

5 Q. Do you know why Mr. Delalic was appointed

6 commander of Tactical Group 1? Do you know why?

7 A. No.

8 Q. Now you mentioned that you're on the joint

9 command and you're on that command with a number of

10 other people. I am just interested, if I have the

11 people that correct -- if I have the correct list of

12 people who are on the joint command. So I'll mention

13 the names and you might tell me if you would be so

14 kind. Was the first commander Enver Redzepovic?

15 A. Yes, but he was not my first commander.

16 Q. No, I'll just go through the list of the

17 first joint command of the TO and HVO. And then, was

18 there Dinko Zebic?

19 A. Dinko Zebic was the chief of staff at the

20 joint command.

21 Q. And Ivan Asanovic was deputy commander, I

22 think?

23 A. No, not as far as I know.

24 Q. Mihat Cerovac?

25 A. Mihat Cerovac?

Page 12023

1 Q. Yes.

2 JUDGE JAN: Say, yes or no.

3 Q. And Jasmin Guska?

4 A. Yes, no, for Jasmin Guska.

5 MS. RESIDOVIC: I do not understand this line

6 of questioning. My objection is --

7 JUDGE JAN: He wants to find out whether

8 those persons were there or not. He's got a list I

9 think prepared by -- he just wants to check up with

10 that list.

11 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Those who are member of

12 the joint command, who have been heard.

13 MS. RESIDOVIC: Yes, but this is not the

14 list -- he's giving some names that were -- in other

15 words, we were not provided such a list, which would

16 have been his obligation.

17 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: It depends on him to

18 admit or reject.

19 MR. NIEMANN: I can assure, Your Honours, I

20 won't give false names.

21 Q. Rusmir Hadzihuseinovic?

22 A. No.

23 Q. Then there was a second commander appointed

24 to the joint command and that was Esad Ramic?

25 A. Could you repeat this last one, please?

Page 12024

1 Q. Certainly. After Enver Redzepovic was

2 appointed, the next commander to be appointed was Esad

3 Ramic?

4 A. I believe so, yes.

5 Q. And under Esad Ramic, it was when he was the

6 commander of the joint command, that was the time that

7 you were on the joint command, is that right?

8 A. Not exactly. If you want me to explain, I

9 can do that.

10 Q. If you can give me a yes or no answer, it

11 would be much easier, and then we can finish today.

12 A. My first commander in actual fact was Omer

13 Boric.

14 Q. And I am speaking specifically of the joint

15 command. I am not talking about the TO. I am talking

16 about the joint command -- the commander of the joint

17 command.

18 A. Yes, Omer Boric.

19 Q. Okay, fine. Now, when you were on the joint

20 command, Zejnil Delalic and Rusmir Hadzihuseinovic was

21 also on the joint command, weren't they?

22 MS. RESIDOVIC: The witness answered this

23 question already.

24 MR. NIEMANN: The witness didn't, Your

25 Honour.

Page 12025

1 THE WITNESS: A number of them were members

2 of the joint command.

3 Q. In the statement that you gave to Madam

4 Residovic --

5 JUDGE JAN: Just a minute, what was the

6 answer he gave?

7 MR. NIEMANN: No, he said no.

8 JUDGE JAN: A number of members, a number of

9 them were members of the joint command.

10 MR. NIEMANN: I'm sorry, Your Honour, I

11 thought he was denying it. Neither of the members.

12 JUDGE JAN: Please check up on the

13 translation.

14 MR. NIEMANN: Now in the statement that you

15 gave --

16 MS. RESIDOVIC: Your Honour, the witness

17 should be allowed to state unequivocally, there's your

18 comment, but he has not -- then in the transcript, it

19 is not clear whether operation -- Rusmir

20 Hadzihuseinovic were members of the joint command or

21 not.

22 JUDGE JAN: Please speak a little loudly, so

23 that the interpreters can know what you're saying.


25 Q. Was Rusmir Hadzihuseinovic and Zejnil

Page 12026

1 Delalic, a member of the joint command when you were a

2 member?

3 A. No.

4 Q. Now, in your statement that you gave to Ms.

5 Residovic, you mentioned a name of Ivan Asanovic, would

6 you like to look at your statement?

7 A. It's not necessary.

8 Q. If you do, please don't hesitate to ask.

9 Now, it's true, isn't it, that in that you refer to

10 Ivan Asanovic and you said that he had the position of

11 being president of the HVO, do you remember saying

12 that?

13 A. Yes, yes, I do remember.

14 Q. President of the HVO's political body, which

15 corresponds with the war presidency in our army?

16 A. To the war presidency in our army, I don't

17 understand, how do you mean the war presidency in our

18 army.

19 Q. I am just quoting from an English translation

20 from what I think it is you've said and I was going to

21 ask you what you meant by that.

22 MS. RESIDOVIC: Can we look at the statement

23 in Bosnian, please.

24 MR. NIEMANN: It is the statement of the

25 defence, Your Honour. I have a copy here of the

Page 12027

1 statement. I just noticed that the photocopy is very

2 poor, so you may not be able to see it. But, if you

3 can't, we'll move on. Thank you, could you give that

4 to... Now, while we're waiting for that to be

5 distributed, it's true, is it not, that there were

6 ongoing problems between the HVO and the TO during the

7 whole course of 1992?

8 A. There were no problems at the very

9 beginning. There were no significant problems. We

10 functioned well together up until the Oranj Operation.

11 Q. So, is it your evidence that after the Oranj

12 Operation and, in particular, after the seizing of the

13 equipment relating to the, to the 130 millimetre gun,

14 that's when relations began the deteriorate rapidly?

15 A. Yes, immediately after that. The

16 relationships between myself and my deputy sort of

17 cooled off.

18 MS. RESIDOVIC: Your Honours, it is obvious

19 that the sentence which had just been quoted was

20 mistranslated, it's the last paragraph on page 2. As

21 far as Ivan Asanovic is concerned, I know that he was

22 president of the HVO, that is their political body,

23 which would correspond to our war presidency.

24 JUDGE JAN: There's no reference to the joint

25 staff. It is no reference to the joint staff. It's

Page 12028

1 the position Asanovic. He may also be in the joint

2 command, but you are talking about he was the president

3 of a political party, which corresponds to the position

4 of the war presidency. It is not a reference to the

5 joint staff.

6 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Which is equivalent to

7 the political body. I see no problem.

8 MS. RESIDOVIC: Only the Prosecutor suggested

9 that the war presidency somehow related to the army,

10 which I say was a mistranslation really.

11 MR. NIEMANN: Perhaps the witness might be

12 shown the statement.

13 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Well, he couldn't be the

14 only one who would translate the war presidency as

15 equivalent to the head of the army. You have too many

16 witnesses indicating, clearly, that the war presidency

17 is a civilian organisation.

18 MR. NIEMANN: That's not -- it is nothing to

19 do with my line of questioning, though, Your Honour.

20 My line of questioning relates to the fact that the

21 army had a political master.

22 JUDGE JAN: Yes.

23 MR. NIEMANN: And the political master of the

24 army -- and the political master of the army, in the

25 case of the HVO, was a civil -- civilian person who was

Page 12029

1 president of the HVO and that civilian political master

2 corresponded, according to what I can read here, to the

3 president of the war presidency with respect to the --

4 JUDGE JAN: He was speaking within the

5 context of his own constitutional structure.

6 MR. NIEMANN: That's what he says here Your

7 Honour.

8 JUDGE JAN: I don't think he would say that.

9 MR. NIEMANN: It appears very clearly from

10 the English translation.

11 MR. O'SULLIVAN: I think, Your Honours, if I

12 can be of some assistance, this is an OTP translation

13 and, in my submission, it's a mistranslation.

14 MR. NIEMANN: That's why I was going to put

15 the statement to the witness.

16 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Yes, put it to him.

17 JUDGE JAN: You must have a better version of

18 the statement because he provided to the Prosecution.

19 You must be having a clearer version of this statement.

20 MS. RESIDOVIC: This is the original

21 statement and we submitted it to the prosecution, but

22 all in Bosnian, so what I say here is that the

23 translation that was then made was mistranslation.

24 MR. NIEMANN: Witness, would you endeavour to

25 read, if you can, the paragraph that starts, "As for

Page 12030

1 Ivan Asanovic". Can read that paragraph for me. It's

2 towards the very end. In fact, in the English version,

3 it's the fourth to last paragraph of the whole

4 statement. I believe it's on the last page. I think

5 it's the bottom of the...

6 A. There it is.

7 MS. RESIDOVIC: It's illegible.

8 MR. NIEMANN: I am grateful.

9 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Let him have your copy.

10 JUDGE JAN: This is what I was requesting,

11 that you can give him that version, which is probably a

12 clearer one.

13 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Give it to him. You

14 don't have to...

15 MR. NIEMANN: Go to the same place in the

16 statement, would you for me please, four paragraphs

17 towards the end and just read out the statement, which

18 I think should start, "As for Ivan Asanovic"?

19 A. This is what it is says. "As far as Ivan

20 Asanovic is concerned, I know that he was the president

21 of the HVO, that is their political body which would

22 correspond to our war presidency". I did not -- had

23 any contacts with him, so his activities are not known

24 to me.

25 Q. Yes, fair enough. Now, when you say "war

Page 12031

1 presidency", is the words "in our army" appear there,

2 or do they not appear there? In your statement, you

3 read it so fast, I am just asking you, do the words

4 "after war presidency in our army" appear?

5 MS. RESIDOVIC: Your Honours --

6 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: In our army, war

7 presidency, in our army, are those words in the

8 original text?

9 THE WITNESS: No, there are no such words.

10 MR. NIEMANN: No further questions.

11 MS. RESIDOVIC: Can I please have this copy

12 back, it is my personal copy. If necessary, I can

13 provide -- on the other hand, nobody is offering it.

14 We just read a paragraph from it. Thank you.

15 THE REGISTRAR: I'm sorry, this copy has been

16 marked and this copy has been shown to the witness, so

17 I should keep it.

18 JUDGE JAN: Give a clean copy --

19 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Who said for you to keep

20 it?

21 THE REGISTRAR: This copy has not been

22 tendered.


24 THE REGISTRAR: If Your Honour will permit

25 me --

Page 12032


2 THE REGISTRAR: Okay, thank you.

3 JUDGE JAN: Any re-examination?

4 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Any re-examination of

5 this witness?

6 Re-examined by Ms. Residovic:

7 Q. Mr. Pasic, could you please tell me, who was

8 the first commander of the Territorial Defence

9 headquarters of Konjic after April 17th?

10 A. After 17 April, the commander was Omer Boric.

11 Q. The 17th of April?

12 A. No. After the 17th of April, Esad Ramic, and

13 after the 18th of May, Omer Boric.

14 Q. Are you absolutely sure of these facts or can

15 you not speak to these facts with full precision?

16 A. Maybe I could not really say exactly because

17 they changed very frequently.

18 Q. But could you tell me who the commander was

19 when you became a member of the joint command?

20 A. Omer Boric.

21 Q. And you are absolutely sure of that?

22 A. Yes.

23 MS. RESIDOVIC: Thank you. I have no further

24 questions.

25 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: I think this is all for

Page 12033

1 this witness. You are discharged. Thank you very much

2 for your assistance to the Trial Chamber.

3 (The witness withdrew)

4 THE WITNESS: Thank you, Your Honours.

5 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: The Trial Chamber will

6 now rise and reassemble on Monday at ten a.m.

7 --- Whereupon hearing adjourned at 5.40 p.m.

8 to be reconvened on Monday, the 25th day of

9 May, 1998 at 10.00 a.m.