1 --- Upon commencing at 10.08 a.m.
2 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Good morning, ladies and
3 gentlemen. May we have the appearances, please?
4 MR. NIEMANN: If Your Honours please, my name
5 is Niemann. I appear with my colleagues Ms. McHenry,
6 Mr. Turone and Ms. Udo for the Prosecution, Your
8 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Can we have the
9 appearances for the Defence, please?
10 MS. RESIDOVIC: Good morning, Your Honours.
11 I'm Edina Residovic, Defence counsel for Mr. Zejnil
12 Delalic. Mr. Delalic is also represented by my
13 colleague Mr. Eugene O'Sullivan, a professor from
14 Canada. Thank you.
15 MR. OLUJIC: Good morning, Your Honours, I'm
16 Zelko Olujic, attorney from Croatia, Defence counsel
17 for Mr. Zdravko Mucic, along with my colleague Tomislav
18 Kuzmanovic, attorney from the United States.
19 MR. KARABDIC: Good morning, Your Honours.
20 I'm Salih Karabdic, attorney from Sarajevo along with
21 Thomas Moran, attorney from Houston, Texas. We
22 represent Mr. Hazim Delalic.
23 MS. McMURREY: Your Honours, I'm Cynthia
24 McMurrey, and along with my colleague Ms. Nancy Boler,
25 we represent Esad Landzo.
1 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Kindly bring in the
3 (The witness entered court)
4 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Please remind him he's
5 still under oath.
6 THE REGISTRAR: I remind you, sir, that you
7 are still under oath.
8 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: You may proceed,
10 RUSMIR SAFET HADZIHUSEINOVIC
11 Cross-examined by Mr. Niemann
12 Q. Good morning, Doctor.
13 A. Good morning.
14 Q. Doctor, I just want to start off this morning
15 by showing you a couple of documents and asking you
16 whether or not it's your signature that's on the bottom
17 of them. I don't need you to go into any explanation.
18 It's just a question of saying yes or no, it isn't so.
19 Perhaps, the first one I would ask you to
20 look at is Exhibit P-144 VA-6. Would you have a look
21 at that for me, please? There's a number of documents
22 that appear there. While you're looking at that one,
23 perhaps Madam Registrar may get out the other document
24 for me which is Exhibit D-144 V-A/25.
25 Doctor, the documents that you've now been
1 show, P-144, there's a bundle of documents there.
2 Firstly, one is a covering letter, if I might call it
3 that; secondly, the minutes of a meeting or a
4 decision. Do you see at the foot of both of those
5 documents a seal and a signature that appears there?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Are you able to confirm whether or not that
8 is your signature?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Are these documents familiar to you?
11 JUDGE JAN: What are these documents?
12 MR. NIEMANN: They are documents that were
13 tendered in support of the expert witness but were
14 admitted for limited purposes only, Your Honour, in
15 support of his testimony.
16 JUDGE JAN: But what do they show?
17 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, Your Honour.
18 JUDGE JAN: Just give a short description.
19 MR. NIEMANN: Yes, Your Honours. These are
20 documents relating to decisions of the war presidency
21 and relate to, in particular, the appointment.
22 JUDGE JAN: Yes, I recall, but you ask him
23 under what circumstances he made these appointments,
24 because his position has been throughout that the war
25 presidency had nothing to do with the defence
1 organisation of the TO.
2 MR. NIEMANN: Yes. I'll come to that, Your
3 Honours. I merely just wish to tender them at this
5 Q. The second document that you were shown,
6 Doctor, that's D-144 V-A/25. That's an authorisation,
7 is it not? Do you see the signature and seal that
8 appears at the bottom of that document? For Your
9 Honours benefit --
10 A. It is rather illegible, I mean, the copy is.
11 Q. Yes, it is a bad copy. I'm just asking you
12 if you recognise the signature?
13 A. Yes.
14 MR. NIEMANN: Your Honours, relying upon the
15 English version that I've been provided, again, it's a
16 Defence document provided in support, this relates to
17 an authorisation for the supply of uniforms and other
18 military means and equipment. I tender those
19 documents, if Your Honours please, for the truth of
20 their contents.
21 Q. Doctor, yesterday in the course of my
22 cross-examination, I asked you about the issue of the
23 supply of military equipment that was engaged in by
24 the -- well, I think I may have misspoke indeed about
25 the war presidency in the early part of the war. The
1 document I had in mind, but couldn't find at the time,
2 was Exhibit P-66, and I'd just ask you to look at that
3 document, in order to correct any error that I may have
4 made. I note that it's a document of the 12th of
5 April, 1992 and is, in fact, the crisis staff of the
6 assembly. That document also bears your signature, I
7 think, does it, Doctor?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. I know it relates to an earlier period of
10 time than the war presidency, but it concerns itself
11 with the supply of equipment, does it not?
12 A. This is a request.
13 Q. Yes, of course. Now, in relation to the
14 crisis staff, Doctor, when was the crisis staff first
15 established in the Konjic municipality; can you recall?
16 A. Yesterday, I think I clarified it amply.
17 Even before the war, that is, during the peace time,
18 there were bodies which were to have been appointed in
19 the extraordinary circumstances, and the extraordinary
20 circumstances could be a large disasters, immediate
21 threat of war and these --
22 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Let's not go into the
23 history of how it could be appointed. When was the
24 crisis staff appointed?
25 A. The crisis staff was established immediately
1 after the immediate threat of war was declared, and its
2 establishment was provided for not only in Konjic but
3 in all municipalities in such cases. This would have
4 been the crisis staff and the council for people's
5 defence. I think I clarified that yesterday and they
6 functioned until 17 April.
7 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: We didn't want the
8 history of how it was established.
9 A. I believe that I have stated all this very
10 clearly yesterday.
11 MR. NIEMANN:
12 Q. This exhibit, and perhaps you might put the
13 English version on the overhead projector for their
14 Honours to see. In this exhibit that you have in front
15 of you, Exhibit 66, it says on the second page,
16 particularly, Mr. Usher, you might put the second page
17 on after showing the first page; it makes reference to
18 you liaising with the Grude headquarters. What did you
19 mean by that?
20 A. I think I had stated clearly that one of the
21 components of the defence forces of Konjic was the
22 HVO. The Croatian Defence Council had its own superior
23 command, and this command in terms of issuing commands,
24 orders, was in Grude and that's all.
25 Q. Thank you. I'm finished with that document,
1 thank you, Doctor. Yesterday we had some discussion
2 about the question of orders, and I showed you one
3 document in relation to orders being issued by the war
4 presidency. I think that you made some distinction
5 about those matters, but I'd now ask you to look at a
6 number of documents that were supplied by the Defence
7 in this case. The first one is Exhibit D-144 V-A/12.
8 Again, Your Honours, for your benefit, this
9 is an order by -- purports to be an order by the
10 president of the presidency relating to civil defence
11 and staff economy, in relation to the necessary number
12 of blankets for persons detained in Celebici prison.
13 Now, do you notice that that document is
14 headed "Order"?
15 A. Yes, I do.
16 Q. Thank you. I ask you to look at another
17 document, if you would for me, and that is
18 Exhibit D-144/V-A13.
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Now, do you see that document and this,
21 again, Your Honours, is a decision of the war
22 presidency purported to be signed by the witness, and
23 it relates --
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. -- to the health centre. Do you notice that
1 that is headed "Decision"?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Again, that's your signature and seal that
4 appears at the foot of that document?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Thank you. Now, would you look at the next
7 document that I show you? That's Exhibit D-144
8 V-A-14. This relates to the confiscation of
9 registration plates of vehicles, which are to be placed
10 at the disposal of the war presidency, should they be
11 confiscated; is that right? It's an order that has got
12 headed "Order"?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Again, that bears your signature, does it
15 not, and the seal?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. It's sent to the police station but,
18 secondly, to the command, submitted to secondly -- the
19 first reference is to the police station and then the
20 command. You have to say "yes," Doctor, otherwise it
21 can't be taken down in the transcript.
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. I would like you to look at another document
24 which is D-144 V-A/15. Again, this is a document
25 headed "Order" and it provides that all members of the
1 defence forces of Konjic TO and HVO are forbidden to
2 use vehicles, a particular type of vehicles. Doctor,
3 that again bears your signature, does it not, and your
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Again, that is sent to the Electra
7 Herzegovina Company and then secondly to the command?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Now, finally, would you look at the next
10 document which is shown to you, which is D-144 V-A/16.
11 This is again an order and, I think, signed by yourself
12 with your seal; is that right?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Its address provides that the military staff
15 of the defence forces of the Konjic municipality is
16 obliged to ensure unique consumption of crude oil, et
17 cetera. I don't need to go into details. Again,
18 that's submitted to the command.
19 Doctor, looking at all these documents that
20 I've now shown you, isn't it a fact that when you are
21 issuing directives, as it were, to civilian bodies,
22 such as is shown in the second document that you looked
23 at, I think it was the second document, the document
24 D-144 V-A/13, it's interesting, is it not, that the
25 places to whom it is directed are all civilian bodies?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. But when a document is headed "Order," at
3 least one of the bodies that it is directed to is the
4 military command?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. It's true, isn't it, that there is a
7 distinction between directions and decisions -- I
8 should say "decisions." There's a distinction between
9 decisions and orders, isn't there?
10 A. Only in terms of the words themselves, not in
11 terms of the essence.
12 Q. Thank you, Doctor. I'm finished with those
14 MR. NIEMANN: I tender them all, Your
15 Honour. The doctor has identified the signature and
17 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: They are admitted.
18 MR. NIEMANN:
19 Q. Doctor, I understand that yesterday in your
20 evidence in chief, you testified that it was quite
21 clear what were the competencies of the various
22 entities in the Konjic municipality at the relevant
23 time during 1992; did you say something or something
24 to that effect yesterday?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. Who was the competent entity for the Celebici
2 prison during the period May to November of 1992?
3 A. It certainly was not the war presidency or
4 any of the bodies appointed by it. As far as the
5 competencies for prisons are concerned, even before the
6 war and during the war, it was only the police bodies
7 and the investigating bodies that could have that and
8 not civilian ones.
9 Q. You mentioned in your evidence an occasion
10 when some Arab journalists wanted to visit the Celebici
11 prison and other facilities; do you recall that?
12 A. Yes, I do recall.
13 Q. Was that a request only made on one occasion
14 or was there more than one occasion when Arab
15 journalists wanted to visit Celebici, that you can
17 A. As far as I can recall, and yesterday I think
18 I was very clear, I remember that this group of
19 journalists stayed in my mind very vividly because --
20 let me repeat this -- they not only wanted to talk to
21 me in my office, but they also wanted to visit the
22 front lines and the prison in Celebici. And then this
23 is why I recall it so vividly. But, there were many
24 visits of Croatian journalists to Konjic as I said
25 yesterday, but this one stayed in my mind because this
1 group of journalists wanted to visit the front lines,
2 which was very dangerous, as well as the prison at
4 Q. Now, when they came, you, I think, it's your
5 evidence that you approached the TO for their authority
6 for them to, for these journalists, Arab journalists,
7 to visit the prison, was that right?
8 A. No, that is not correct. I said that they
9 came unannounced to the war presidency and that they
10 requested what I have just said. And among other
11 things, we talked about Konjic, about the living
12 conditions there and, in addition to that, they asked
13 for these two things. And since I was not competent
14 for either of these two things which they requested, I
15 directed them to the bodies which were competent for
17 Q. Well, what was the body competent for
18 Celebici that you directed them to?
19 A. This is what I said a minute ago. These were
20 the competent police and military investigating
21 bodies. It was not in my authority as part of the body
22 which I represented, so I was not -- I had no interest
23 in this.
24 Q. Didn't you say yesterday that you directed
25 them to the TO? You didn't mention anything about the
1 police. You said they were directed to the TO. That
2 was your testimony yesterday.
3 A. Yes, I directed them to the structures who
4 potentially could help them to fulfil this wish of
6 Q. Well, I put it to you that you said yesterday
7 that you only mentioned that you directed them to the
8 TO, and you only mentioned the TO, and that was --
9 A. If this is what you say and if this is what
10 has been taken down, I have nothing against that.
11 Q. So, at least, at that stage, you must have
12 thought that the TO had authority over Celebici?
13 A. Not Territorial Defence, as a territorial
14 defence, but a body of it may be a military
15 investigating body or a police body because those are
16 the bodies who should control this, rather than
17 civilian ones. And I believe this is all very clear.
18 There's nothing unclear about it.
19 Q. Now I think you also testified in the course
20 of your evidence-in-chief, that the war presidency had
21 no authority to appoint members to the military
22 investigative committee or to give them any
23 assignments, was that your testimony?
24 A. Absolutely, absolutely.
25 Q. They could not do that. When you're
1 referring to that, I just wanted a clarification. When
2 you're referring to the military investigative
3 committee in relation to Celebici, or were you making
4 some sort of general comment?
5 A. I am not sure I understand what you're --
6 what you're asking me. I don't know about this
7 military investigative commission, I believe that it is
8 clear what body this is.
9 Q. And it's something that the war presidency
10 had nothing to do with, is that a fair statement? If
11 it's not, please correct me.
12 A. Absolutely, absolutely. It never appointed
13 such a commission, nor did it have any competencies in
14 that regard.
15 Q. Would you look at Exhibit P-125 for me
16 please. May I see that document? I am not sure that
17 it's the one I am referring to.
18 JUDGE JAN: This document probably referred
19 to the commission for finding out the persons killed or
20 persons --
21 MR. NIEMANN: It's not the document I am
22 referring to, Your Honour. Is that P-125?
23 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, that's Document 125,
24 Prosecutor document.
25 MR. NIEMANN: I'll come back to that, Your
2 Q. Doctor, excuse me a moment, there seems to be
3 some confusion with the documents, so I'll come back to
4 it. So if you'll just put that aside for now, thank
5 you. Doctor, during the course of 1992, did you ever
6 have any contact or receive any reports from Mr. Pavo
7 Mucic about the Celebici prison?
8 A. No, absolutely not.
9 Q. Did you have any contact with him at all,
10 that you can recall?
11 A. No. I saw Pavo Mucic only once and he was
12 wearing civilian clothes and he was in the Celebici
13 barracks compound and he had some kind of a car there,
14 I think it had foreign registration plates and he used
15 it. On the second occasion, when I saw him, was when I
16 visited this complex during the swearing in ceremony
17 and I remember well that he had a camera at that time
18 and he was taping something. So, these were the only
19 occasions on which I ever saw or had any contact with
20 this man.
21 Q. So, if Mr. Mucic had said to an investigator
22 from the Tribunal that, that before and after he was
23 appointed camp commander, he always tried to keep -- to
24 help them, always informed the town headquarters, the
25 chief, the Mayor of Konjic, Rusmir Hadzihuseinovic, and
1 Zejnil Delalic; you would say that's not true?
2 A. I am here under oath and I can only tell the
3 truth. I said what you have asked me and I have
4 nothing else to add to it.
5 Q. Okay, I'll move on. Now the document I did
6 want you to look at was P-169, and I apologise to the
7 Registrar for that. I had asked you some questions a
8 moment ago about the role or the lack of role by the
9 war presidency in the investigative body and then I
10 wanted to show you this document. Perhaps the English
11 version can be put on the overhead projector.
12 Doctor, do you notice that at the top of this
13 particular document, it's headed, "Republic of
14 Bosnia-Herzegovina, Municipality of Konjic, War
15 Presidency of the Municipality of Konjic, Investigative
16 Body of the War Presidency"?
17 A. I have seen this document in its entirety.
18 It has been shown to me and I will tell you exactly
19 what I think of it. I see it now for the first time.
20 I have never seen it before in my life. This document,
21 at the bottom has a seal, which is not a seal of the
22 body of which I was a -- the president. And it
23 completely excludes the war presidency and any of its
24 body in terms of the authorship. And as far as the
25 heading of the document is concerned, you should ask
1 the person who drafted it why he put it there. Any
2 document that was coming out of the war presidency had
3 to have a seal affixed to it and this is not the right
5 Q. I see. Now, if -- tell us about seals,
6 Doctor. If a seal appears on something and a signature
7 above it, does one give high regard to the seal or to
8 the signature?
9 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: The witness is
10 complaining about the right seal, not necessarily any
12 MR. NIEMANN: Well, he may be, Your Honour.
13 This is operating, I might ask him about position in
14 the municipality.
15 Q. Is it the seal that determines the issue if
16 there's any question of doubt?
17 A. Absolutely. Absolutely. If there is no seal
18 -- and only the war presidency had the seal. And if
19 there is any other seal, he was made somewhere else.
20 This document was not drafted in the war presidency or
21 in any of its bodies and this is what I affirm,
23 Q. Certainly. So if there was -- I just want to
24 clarify this point. So if there was any confusion by
25 -- in determining the competency of the person who
1 appeared to sign a document, that confusion would be
2 resolved by reference to the seal itself? Am I right
3 in saying that? Is that your position?
4 A. No. That is what you have stated, that is
5 not what I wanted to say. I said everything that I had
6 to say on this document.
7 Q. Well, are you prepared to help us with this,
8 Doctor, because you know more about what operated in
9 Konjic Municipality at that relevant time than we did
10 and I am asking you about the effective seals of
11 various bodies -- let me finish, Doctor -- the
12 effective seals by various bodies in the municipality,
13 in that particular period of time. And the question
14 that I am asking you is, if there is confusion, can
15 that confusion be resolved by looking at the particular
16 seal that's attached?
17 MS. RESIDOVIC: Your Honours, the witness has
18 already stated, specifically, the answer.
19 THE WITNESS: You are talking about different
20 seals. There was no other seal at the war presidency
21 in Konjic. There was only one single seal. Any
22 document coming out of the war presidency or any of its
23 organs, would have to have had the war presidency seal
24 affixed to it. And this is not such a seal. So I say
25 that this document was not drafted, was not compiled in
1 any -- in the war presidency or any of its organs and I
2 think that this makes it entirely clear.
3 MR. NIEMANN:
4 Q. Okay. Now, can I have, Madam Registrar,
5 Exhibits P-210 and P-213? Just to look at and then I
6 want to show them to the witness. Just look at these
7 two documents that I now show to you. And the matter
8 that interests me most is the seals that are placed at
9 the bottom of them. And when you've had a good look at
10 them, would you put them on the ELMO for me, please.
11 On this occasion, could we have the original document
12 on the ELMO. Once the Doctor has looked at them.
13 Okay. Can they be put on the ELMO, please? Original
14 version, just one at a time. That's fine. Leave that
15 one there for a moment until it comes up on the
17 Doctor, do you notice there appears two
18 signatures there? One appears to be a document signed
19 Zejnil Delalic and it's headed, "Coordinator". And the
20 signature that immediately appears, appears to be
21 signed by the TO commander, is that true?
22 A. Yes, I explained that yesterday.
23 Q. Yes, just bear with me, Doctor. And you see
24 that there are two seals attached, do you not?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. Now, am I right in saying that both of those
2 seals are the seals of the Konjic Territorial Defence?
3 A. Yes, that is beyond question.
4 MS. RESIDOVIC: I object, I don't know if
5 these are authentic documents and I don't know how this
6 witness can pronounce his opinion about these documents
7 because his signature is not on them.
8 MR. NIEMANN:
9 Q. Isn't it true that the -- that they are two
10 seals that you recognise as being the seals of the
11 Konjic Territorial Defence and they are attached next
12 to each of the signatures?
13 MS. RESIDOVIC: I repeat my objection.
14 JUDGE JAN: He's only been asked to identify
15 these seals, which he can do if he knows what those
16 seals were.
17 MS. RESIDOVIC: I don't see what bearing this
18 has. Given the knowledge of this witness, he's
19 president of the municipality and not of the TO.
20 JUDGE JAN: He can say he's not aware of
21 those seals, he can say that.
22 MR. NIEMANN: In fact, he said, "absolutely",
23 I think, Your Honour.
24 Q. And just looking at the next document that I
25 have given you, which is a similar document, and only
1 reference to the seals again. Now I only want to see
2 the seals on the second page. Now, again, there's two
3 seals there, they're the seals of the Territorial
4 Defence, are they not, Doctor?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. And there are two names that appear beside
7 them. Now, does that mean that if Zejnil Delalic, for
8 example, was to sign his name and attach a seal next to
9 it, that if there was any confusion about his role or
10 competency, we would resolve that confusion by
11 reference to that seal that appears there?
12 A. I do not agree, I will explain this to Your
14 Q. Please do.
15 A. Here on this document, the signature, if this
16 is actually the signature of Mr. Delalic, above that
17 you have the word "coordinator". This is not the only
18 document signed by him. And it is not a sign of the
19 fact that this person is a military person, but, merely
20 of a sign of his presence and of his information. We
21 were aware of his status at that time and what he was
22 at that time. And the document was written in a
23 competent military body, which was confirmed by the
24 seals and the coordinator, coordinator was only
25 confirms that he was present at the time, so he was
1 civilian then and he only transmitted information
2 between the joint command and the war presidency and I
3 don't see anything strange in this.
4 Q. So that seal --
5 A. He's not a soldier in signing this.
6 Q. So the seals really didn't mean very much at
8 A. I am not commenting on this. We know what
9 his function was and what his signature means. We have
10 clarified his post of coordinator on a number of
11 occasions already, very clearly.
12 Q. So, yesterday, when you were speaking of the
13 fact that the TO commanders would sign certain
14 documents, and you signed documents with them as the
15 war -- as president of the war presidency, it wouldn't
16 matter where you put your seal or the TO's seal on the
17 document next to your signature, is that what you're
19 A. All the documents, which the joint command
20 sent to the war presidency had the character of a piece
21 of information and vice versa. All documents of the
22 war presidency sent to the joint command had the
23 character of an information and not of an order. We
24 could not order anything to the joint command and the
25 joint command couldn't issue orders to us because we
1 were quite different bodies, but we could issue to one
2 another some piece of information related to an
3 individual problem. So the war presidency could issue
4 decisions only to management bodies or to the
5 institutions established by it, like the civilian
6 defence and so on, but not to any other military body.
7 Q. Thank you. Doctor, yesterday in your
8 evidence you spoke of the fact that the war presidency
9 formed a medical commission to examine persons and to
10 provide medical care.
11 A. The war presidency, not the military
13 Q. I do apologise, the war presidency, thank
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. And that medical commission also had
17 responsibility for people in Celebici, as well as other
18 persons in Konjic Municipality, that's right, isn't
20 MS. RESIDOVIC: Your Honour, the basis of
21 this question of our colleague, it was not a question
22 of the war presidency forming commission, it was the
23 health centre that established commissions for medical
25 MR. NIEMANN: We'll check up on the
1 transcripts, Your Honour.
2 Q. But the health commission, in any event, came
3 under the --
4 A. Change the substance of the matter.
5 Q. It doesn't change the substance, is that what
6 you're saying?
7 A. The medical commission was formed by the
8 health institution and the health institution was
9 established by the municipalities, so the hospital in
10 Konjic was under the competency of the municipality and
11 this was all under the competencies of the hospital.
12 Q. Thank you.
13 A. So the health centre was in charge of taking
14 care of the health of all the population of Konjic and
15 to provide medical care to all of them. And I would
16 like to avail myself of this opportunity to say that
17 they did their utmost as colleagues and as health
18 workers and medical personnel and doctors, regardless
19 of who was in questions, they invested super human
20 efforts because the times were very difficult indeed.
21 Q. What programme was in place on an ongoing
22 basis to attend to the health needs of the prisoners of
23 Celebici by this medical commission?
24 A. The health centre was very busy indeed. And
25 it had obligations to the entire population of Konjic,
1 so the prisoners, the detainees were in such a position
2 that health could be provided to them in the same way
3 as to the other population when such assistance was
4 needed. The doctors and the staff provided such aid
5 whenever this was necessary and that is a certainty.
6 Q. And I am being just shown the transcript of
7 what you actually said yesterday at 1004029 -- .29.
8 And you say in answer to a question, after these police
9 and military operations in these areas mentioned, the
10 war presidency at its session, held on June 3rd of that
11 year, adopted a series of conclusions, it mentions
12 several events --
13 A. Yes, I said June the 3rd.
14 Q. And you participated, did you not, as part of
15 this medical commission?
16 A. I was a Doctor and there were very few
17 doctors in the municipality. All the Serb physicians
18 had left. And there was a shortage of medical
19 persons. We even suggested to mobilise to include
20 medical students, those who had not yet graduated, in
21 our job. Anyone who had any sort of medical knowledge.
22 JUDGE JAN: It's not necessary, please.
23 MR. NIEMANN:
24 Q. Doctor, in most instances, the questions I
25 ask you merely require a yes or no answer. Now, I
1 don't want to restrict you if you think you need to
2 explain something, but in most instances, you can
3 satisfy my requirements by -- just wait please,
4 Doctor -- you can satisfy my requirements by yes or no
5 answer and we can resolve this much more quickly.
6 A. Yes, I took part in examining in this board
7 commission as a Doctor.
8 Q. Now, you examined people in Celebici as well,
9 didn't you, you, yourself?
10 A. Yes, I did, once.
11 Q. Now, those people were brought to you, were
12 they, it wasn't a case of you going out and making any
13 determinations on your own, it was people that were
14 actually brought to you?
15 A. Yes. We examined them in the compound of
16 Celebici in the administrative building, that is, all
17 people requiring examination. They were brought by the
18 medical technicians to the administration building.
19 Q. I was just endeavouring to clarify whether
20 you had any input into the determination of who would
21 receive or who wouldn't receive medical attention.
22 Now, I think you also said in your evidence, and it's
23 your position, I believe, that the injuries that you
24 examined were not the result of someone being beaten
25 but were more the results or consequences of war
1 injuries. That's your position, isn't it?
2 A. I said that because people who are brought
3 were brought following military and combat action and
4 then we examined them. I took part in those
5 examinations and the people were brought to us after
6 the combat operations.
7 Q. Do you know the names of any of the prisoners
8 that were actually taken away from Celebici for medical
10 A. I can't remember the details. I think that I
11 knew some of them. I knew a man called Mrkajic; that
12 was his surname, and I think I remember a man called
13 Jovanovic; that was his surname. I cannot be 100 per
14 cent sure but I think that I can remember them.
15 Q. What about a name called Slobodan Babic?
16 A. Doesn't mean a thing to me.
17 Q. Zelko Klimenta?
18 A. Zelko Klimenta, I knew him but I hadn't seen
19 him. I don't remember having had examined him, but I
20 knew him from earlier. I don't remember that he was
21 checked up by us.
22 Q. Were the medical records of the detainees of
23 Celebici that you examined, kept?
24 A. These were records kept by the medical
25 technicians. This was not the job of a doctor, that
1 is, writing in the names and surnames of the patients
2 and so on.
3 Q. These medical technicians accompanied you to
4 Celebici, did they, when you did your examinations so
5 that these were --
6 A. The entire job relating to examination was
7 carried out by the health centre, that civilian
9 Q. Did you actually write on the medical
10 records, sign them or make any note on them yourself?
11 A. I can't really remember the details, but some
12 diagnosis had to be written out. If people were more
13 seriously injured, they were sent to hospital. And
14 then there, there should have been documents about such
16 Q. But are you saying there were no documents in
17 relation to people actually examined at Celebici, only
18 those that went to hospital?
19 A. That is not what I'm claiming.
20 Q. Well, I'm not trying to --
21 A. No, I didn't say that.
22 Q. But really what I'm asking you, Doctor, is
23 are you aware that medical records were kept of the
24 Celebici detainees examined at Celebici. That's what I
25 want to know.
1 A. There was a book probably. There must have
2 been a book with the names of the persons coming to be
3 examined were noted down. This is quite normal. This
4 is the protocol of medical assistance.
5 Q. Where would that book be now?
6 THE INTERPRETER: We can't hear the witness.
7 A. I don't know. I don't know where it is now.
8 MR. NIEMANN:
9 Q. Doctor, who determined which patients you
10 would see and which ones you wouldn't see; do you
11 know? It may be something you don't know.
12 JUDGE JAN: Did you examine all or some of
13 them only? Did you examine all the detainees or only
14 some of them?
15 A. The detainees requiring medical assistance
16 were provided with such medical assistance so
17 whoever --
18 JUDGE JAN: Did you examine all the detainees
19 or only those who required attention?
20 A. Well, there were no regular systematic
21 check-ups, only those wishing to be examined or having
22 any health problems were examined. I think that this
23 is clear. I think that is the usual practise.
24 MR. NIEMANN:
25 Q. You attended the camp, I think you said, on
1 one occasion, in your capacity as a medical
2 practitioner. Did you attend in any other capacity?
3 Do you remember going out there for any other reason?
4 JUDGE JAN: He has said that on the oath
5 taking ceremony.
6 A. I didn't say that I visited the prison. I
7 said that I had visited the compound of the Celebici,
8 the barracks. I never went to the prison. I was in
9 the administration building where I examined people on
10 one occasion. On a second occasion, I went to the
11 compound when there was the swearing-in ceremony, and I
12 was in the official stalls there, in the solemn stalls.
13 Q. Were there any other doctors with you at the
14 time you went to the camp to perform your medical
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Who was with you then?
18 A. I remember there was Dr. Ahmed Izetbegovic
19 (sic) who is a specialist of internal medicine.
20 THE INTERPRETER: I'm sorry. The name is
21 Jusufbegovic, sorry, Ahmed Jusufbegovic.
22 JUDGE JAN: In the transcript it's
24 MR. NIEMANN:
25 Q. Doctor, do you remember going to Celebici on
1 one occasion at least when you spoke to Jasmin Guska?
2 A. No. On one occasion in those two cases I
3 mentioned when we were examining patients, I saw Jasmin
4 Guska in the circle. I didn't speak with him at all.
5 I remember that I saw a colleague, a doctor, and I had
6 a short talk with him.
7 Q. Do you remember being at the camp and seeing
8 Dr. Petko Grubac?
9 A. I was not in the camp. I told you where I
10 was. But a moment ago, I just said that I saw a
11 colleague of mine who was a physician and this was
12 Dr. Petko Grubac. I said that I saw him while I was
13 going to the administration building because he was
14 there and I had a very brief conversation with him. I
15 recall very well that I told him on that occasion that
16 I was not competent -- that I had nothing to do with
17 his investigation, that he was a physician, that he was
18 probably going to be treated quite humanely. I have
19 nothing more to add to this.
20 Q. Did you see Jasmin Guska remove his glasses
21 or force him to throw his glasses on the floor and then
22 smash them. Did you witness that?
23 A. I know absolutely nothing about that.
24 Q. Do you remember ever attending a meeting in
25 Zejnil Delalic's house, and specifically, the date I
1 have is the 11th of July, 1992, when there was
2 discussion about a military matter of setting up an
4 A. I hear this for the first time indeed.
5 Q. So you know nothing about that. Do you know
6 a person or persons called Strahinja Sekic and Slobodan
7 Draganic; do you know either of those people?
8 A. No.
9 Q. Do you remember ever receiving a call from
10 people in a Serb village in the municipality, I
11 shouldn't say a Serb village, but in a village in
12 the municipality appealing to you to have grenade
13 attacks stopped on the village; do you ever recall
14 anything like that?
15 A. No. It's really too much to ask of me right
16 now. There were so many things there. I really do not
18 Q. Did people actually call you about military
19 matters from time to time that you can recall, such as
20 preventing firing on a village and so forth?
21 A. To be honest with you, in my office, people
22 work 24 hours a day, hundreds and hundreds of people
23 pass through it. It's not something that I can really
25 Q. What did you think of Esad Ramic?
1 JUDGE JAN: As what, as a commander, as a
2 person or what?
3 MR. NIEMANN:
4 Q. As commander, as a person.
5 A. I don't know. What is the meaning of that
6 question? I don't understand. I know that he was the
7 municipal headquarters commander, and as far as his
8 personal qualities are concerned, I really --
9 JUDGE JAN: You had no complaints against
11 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, Your Honour.
12 JUDGE JAN: You had no complaints against
13 him? That's all he can say.
14 MR. NIEMANN: I won't ask any more, Your
16 Q. Did you give a statement on the 20th of June,
17 1993 at Pazavici to the 43rd Mountain Brigade of the
18 army of the Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina?
19 MS. RESIDOVIC: Your Honours, I really do not
20 see any relevance to any of these questions and I
21 object to them.
22 MR. NIEMANN: If my colleague is patient,
23 Your Honours, all will be revealed.
24 Q. I'd ask you to look at this document that I
25 now show you. There's an English version and a Bosniak
1 version, and there's a copy for Your Honours and a copy
2 for the Defence, I believe.
3 THE REGISTRAR: Prosecution document 242.
4 MR. NIEMANN:
5 Q. Doctor, does your signature appear at the
6 foot of each page of that document?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Do you remember actually giving this
10 A. Yes.
11 MS. RESIDOVIC: Your Honours, I need to
12 object again. Again, this is a document drafted by a
13 security body which, according to our law, can never be
14 used in a court of law.
15 MR. NIEMANN: Your Honours, their law has no
16 application here, and I'm only dealing with one
17 paragraph. I'll be very brief.
18 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Are you intending to
19 impeach his statement in any respect?
20 MR. NIEMANN: In some respects, yes, Your
21 Honour, but only in one paragraph. It's a very short
23 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: If that is not the case,
24 I don't think it will be necessary to refer to it.
25 What was it that he said you wanted to impeach?
1 MR. NIEMANN: I just want him to go, Your
2 Honours, to the second -- I'll give it to him in his
3 own language. In Your Honours' English version, the
4 relevant paragraph to which I wish to take you is on
5 the third page --
6 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: What I'm asking is what
7 do you intend to impeach? If it is not intended for
8 that, then I don't think it will even be necessary to
9 refer to it.
10 MR. NIEMANN: Well, to explain the subject
11 matter, I have to take Your Honour to the relevant
12 part, and once I do, I can explain the subject matter
13 much more easily, I think.
14 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: I think I don't like it
15 that way, because if it will not be necessary to
16 introduce it, the reading of that paragraph will not be
18 MR. NIEMANN: Well, Your Honours, it goes to
19 the question just a few moments ago about his opinion
20 of Esad Ramic, and it goes to the question of his
21 authorities and capacities to a point.
22 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Let's hear what he said
24 JUDGE JAN: Tell me what you're referring to
25 the paragraph. "Zejnil set up a headquarters in his
1 house. Zejnil and Esad did not like each other. As
2 for" --
3 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone to Judge Jan,
5 MR. NIEMANN: That's exactly right.
6 JUDGE JAN: "He's an asshole. I would never
7 have appointed him commander. That's what Zejnil told
8 him so." How is it relevant? It doesn't show that
9 Zejnil became the commander of the TO. It doesn't show
10 he was responsible for setting up the Celebici camp.
11 Why are you bringing documents which have no bearing on
12 this case?
13 MR. NIEMANN: Your Honours, with respect, the
14 credibility of a witness is something that is very
15 crucial and central, and he has already testified that
16 he had no problems with Esad Ramic.
17 JUDGE JAN: He may not have problems, but the
18 feeling of his professional competence is a different
20 MR. NIEMANN: I'm not asking him about his
21 professional competence. I'm asking him about his
22 opinion of somebody, and he has already given me an
23 answer and this would appear to contradict it. Your
24 Honours, that's a standard approach of
25 cross-examination and it deals with the issue of
2 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: I think there are
3 differences of opinion expressed in other places and is
4 relevant in the case, but I don't know what that
5 matters to Delalic himself.
6 MR. NIEMANN: I'm not going to pursue it,
7 Your Honours, but I note that I have attempted to deal
8 with this issue in what I submit, with great respect,
9 is a legitimate method of cross-examination, but
10 anyway, I'll pass on, Your Honour.
11 Q. Now, Doctor, in your evidence yesterday, you
12 spoke of the fact that you did, on occasion, wear
13 military uniforms but that was for official purposes;
14 is that a fair summary of your evidence on that matter?
15 A. That is not what I said.
16 THE INTERPRETER: Could also the microphone
17 be put to the witness, please?
18 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Kindly check his
20 A. I did not say that yesterday.
21 MR. NIEMANN:
22 Q. Well, you tell me what you did say. Let's
23 make sure we have this clear. What is your position?
24 Why did you wear military uniforms in 1993?
25 A. That year many persons wore uniforms. I was
1 a civilian organ, but it was an honour for me to wear a
2 uniform. It was easier for me to work, to move
3 around. It does not prove that I was a soldier. A
4 number of people did this. This was the beginning of
5 the war. It was something that was a matter of pride
6 and honour. I see nothing bad in this.
7 Q. Now, you performed medical duties, so you're
8 a man of medicine. You were the president of the war
9 presidency and a civilian, but you occasionally wore
10 military uniforms for limited purposes?
11 A. I certainly did not wear it when I was in the
12 surgery room.
13 Q. Why did you carry a machine gun?
14 JUDGE JAN: Ask him did he carry a machine
16 MR. NIEMANN:
17 Q. Actually, did you carry a machine gun?
18 MR. MORAN: Your Honour, I object to the
19 relevance of this. This is collateral to anything that
20 has to do with the guilt of any of these defendants.
21 MR. NIEMANN:
22 Q. Did you carry a machine gun?
23 A. Not an automatic rifle but I had my personal
24 weapons. These were wartimes. There's nothing strange
25 about it.
1 Q. I'm not familiar with weapons, Doctor, so you
2 would need to forgive me, but is a Heckler,
3 H-E-C-K-L-E-R, a small machine gun?
4 A. You're asking me too much. I had a pistol.
5 It was my personal weapon, if you really want to know.
6 Q. And that was what you wore on those
8 A. Not in the hospital, only when I would go to
9 places where it was necessary.
10 JUDGE JAN: In the hospital, you carried a
12 A. Yes, a surgical knife, yes.
13 MR. NIEMANN:
14 Q. I don't know whether the booth is ready to
15 play a very small excerpt of Exhibit 109 which I have
16 requested --
17 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Do you think it's
18 necessary to play that?
19 MR. NIEMANN: Again, Your Honours, it goes to
20 credibility. It's a video showing this gentleman, we
21 will submit, at the appropriate time and we submit he's
22 carrying a gun.
23 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: You talked about this
24 particular type of gun.
25 MR. NIEMANN: That is what the video will
1 reveal, Your Honour, because they tend to be the most
2 accurate form of evidence.
3 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: What he carried was a
4 machine gun?
5 MR. NIEMANN: I wouldn't like to engage in
6 what is machine guns and what aren't, but it's more
7 than a pistol, put it that way.
8 MR. MORAN: Your Honour, I would object to
9 this. It's irrelevant and collateral impeachment. It
10 doesn't go to the heart of the issues.
11 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: It is not necessary.
12 MS. RESIDOVIC: I also would like to join in
13 this objection.
14 JUDGE JAN: There could always be danger of
15 his being attacked. So if he carried a weapon, what is
16 there to say about it?
17 THE WITNESS: Absolutely.
18 MR. NIEMANN: A man of medicine, Your Honours
20 JUDGE JAN: And also a political leader.
21 MR. NIEMANN: I won't press it, Your Honours.
22 Q. If people that were in senior and responsible
23 positions in the Konjic municipality, during that
24 period, stated that they were members of the war
25 presidency, I'm referring directly to the accused
1 Mr. Delalic -- I'll withdraw that, Your Honours.
2 Did the war presidency have any obligations
3 to ensure that the Celebici detainees had adequate
4 care, blankets and food?
5 A. The war presidency, within the sphere of its
6 own responsibilities, as well as the institutions that
7 were subordinate to it, like the civilian protection
8 agency and health care, needed to provide care for
9 everyone including the prisoners. This was done
10 through the civilian protection. This was done through
11 collections. We did not have supplies of blankets and
12 similar supplies. It was something that was a normal,
13 regular activity.
14 Q. Were you ultimately responsible to ensure
15 that they received those sorts of needs and
17 A. I was very clear. The presidency had no
18 responsibility over the prison, but the civilian bodies
19 of the presidency, such as the civilian protection and
20 an institution which was established by the presidency
21 which was the hospital, did have such responsibility to
22 collect the supplies such as blankets, medication.
23 These medications would then be provided to the
24 appropriate bodies who had responsibility for the
25 prisoners. I think that is clear.
1 MR. NIEMANN: No further questions.
2 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Is that all you have for
3 this witness?
4 MR. NIEMANN: Yes, Your Honour.
5 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Any re-examination of
6 this witness?
7 MS. RESIDOVIC: Several questions, Your
9 Re-examined by Ms. Residovic.
10 Q. Mr. Hadzihuseinovic, during the
11 cross-examination by the Prosecution, you were shown
12 certain decisions and orders. Can you tell me,
13 Mr. Hadzihuseinovic, whether the war presidency in its
14 role as the assembly was authorised to issue orders and
16 MR. NIEMANN: Objection, Your Honour.
17 A. Yes. Yes, certainly it did have such
18 authorities but only with respect to the civilian
19 administration bodies and institutions that it had
20 established such as the hospital, but in no way with
21 respect to the military bodies, and this is what is
22 stated in the statute of the town of Konjic in article
24 Q. Thank you. You have spoken about that
1 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: He explained it during
2 cross-examination. He explained it properly.
3 A. I believe that this was also stated
5 MS. RESIDOVIC:
6 Q. Very well, Mr. Hadzihuseinovic, just the
7 issues that were not made absolutely clear. Now, I
8 would like to show a couple of exhibits shown to you by
9 the Prosecution, that is 5A-11, 5A/12. It's "/13."
10 This is all part of D-144. Number 12 was not shown to
11 the witness.
12 THE REGISTRAR: 5A/12 and 5A/13 were shown to
13 the witness, so please, Counsel, be precise which
14 document we should show?
15 MS. RESIDOVIC: Could you please show two
16 documents, 5A/12 and 5A/13?
17 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: What are these documents
18 supposed to show?
19 MS. RESIDOVIC: One is an order of 3 June
20 regarding blankets, and the other one is the decision
21 on the health centre. Those were the documents shown
22 to the witness by the Prosecution.
23 Q. You have both of the documents?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Mr. Hadzihuseinovic, regarding the delivery,
1 could you tell me whether the order was delivered to
2 the command and to the logistics office?
3 A. Yes, as an information.
4 Q. Thank you. Was the decision also delivered
5 both to the command and to the logistics body?
6 A. Yes, and also as an information.
7 Q. Very well, Mr. Hadzihuseinovic. Is it true
8 then that depending on who was to be informed, both
9 decisions and orders were delivered in the same manner?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. I believe that we have now clarified a point
12 that had not been made clear previously. There is
13 another issue that needs to be clarified. Now that you
14 have this decision regarding the health centre in front
15 of you, is this the decision whereby the health centre
16 is committing to providing certain health care to the
17 detainees at Celebici?
18 A. Absolutely.
19 Q. Is this the decision that you had referred to
20 during your examination-in-chief and when you were
21 shown part of the transcript by the Prosecution?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. The medical commission, of which you were a
24 part, and which was established by the health centre,
25 was this a second commission which went there,
1 immediately following the combat operations, to examine
2 the prisoners?
3 A. Yes.
4 MS. RESIDOVIC: Thank you, Your Honours. I
5 have no further questions of this witness.
6 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Thank you very much,
7 Dr. Hadzihuseinovic, and chairman of the municipal
8 authority. We are very grateful for your assistance to
9 the Tribunal. We appreciated your testimony. Thank
10 you very much.
11 THE WITNESS: Thank you too.
12 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: The witness is
14 (The witness withdrew)
15 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Now, you can bring your
16 next witness at 12? The Trial Chamber will now rise
17 and reassemble at 12 noon.
18 --- Recess taken at 11.30 a.m.
19 --- On resuming at 12.05 p.m.
20 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Would counsel be fairly
21 nice to the -- to let us have an idea of what is
22 being inflated on us again, whether it is a repetition
23 of what has been going on or something different?
24 Because I think we have had enough of some many stories
25 of the same kind. So let's know where we are being led
1 to this time.
2 MS. RESIDOVIC: Your Honours, this witness is
3 the director of the war hospital. You will recall that
4 certain prosecution witnesses mentioned him. And given
5 the evidence that was provided, this will determine my
6 leading of this witness. This is -- this most of all
7 concerns the exculpatory evidence concerning the
8 doctors. There may be some additional questions which
9 would just give additional information. But, as I said
10 yesterday, I will only limit myself to two or three
11 areas that are crucial for our Defence.
12 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: You may proceed. If we
13 find that certain portions are getting announced again
14 and again, we reserve the right not to let them in as
15 evidence, but you may continue.
16 MS. RESIDOVIC: Yes, I call Mr. Ahmed
18 (The witness entered court)
19 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Will you please swear
20 the witness. I solemnly declare that I will speak the
21 truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth.
22 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Kindly take your seat.
23 THE WITNESS: Thank you.
24 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: You may proceed, Ms.
1 MS. RESIDOVIC: Thank you, Your Honour
2 Examination by Ms. Residovic:
3 Q. Sir, will you please state your name for the
4 court, by giving us your full first and last names?
5 A. My first is Ahmed Jusufbegovic.
6 Q. Mr. Jusufbegovic, will you please tell the
7 court where and when were you born?
8 A. I was born in Repovci, 1937, on March 15.
9 Q. In order to make it very specific, could you
10 please tell us where Repovci is located?
11 A. Repovci is about 20 kilometres out of Konjic
12 and the road from Konjic to Repovci passes through
14 Q. Thank you, I think that clarifies it
15 sufficiently. Mr. Jusufbegovic, can you tell me what
16 your profession is and where were you educated?
17 A. I am a physician, a specialist for internal
18 medicine and my subspecialisation is in cardiology. My
19 entire education was in Sarajevo. I graduated from the
20 classical high school in Sarajevo and also the medical
21 school. For a while I studied in Belgrade. I
22 specialised in internal medicine in Sarajevo. Then I
23 also went to graduate school and specialising in
24 cardiology, also in Sarajevo.
25 Q. Thank you. Mr. Jusufbegovic, where were you
1 and what was your position in 1992?
2 A. I was in Konjic and I was on duty of the
3 director of health centre in Konjic.
4 Q. Mr. Jusufbegovic, the court is aware of a
5 number of facts regarding the blockade of the town, so
6 I am not here to dwell on these questions, being
7 citizens who live there. My only question to you is,
8 as a director of the health centre there, did you have
9 certain problems in providing health care and
10 transportation of your patients during this period and
11 what were the reasons, if so?
12 A. Yes. During that period, in the institution
13 where I worked, which was the health centre, the
14 problems we were facing were very complex. We were a
15 health centre, which was not adequately supplied with
16 medication, medical supplies and other equipment and
17 machinery, which was necessary to provide medical care
18 to the regular patients and the new ones, which were
19 now -- which now appeared because of the war. In other
20 words, we had lack of just about everything we needed
21 for our work.
22 Q. Mr. Jusufbegovic, where were you taking more
23 serious patients, that is, patients with more serious
25 A. Before the war broke out, we were
1 transferring all our patients who needed serious
2 medical care to Mostar or Sarajevo. However, in late
3 April, all roads were blocked and no patient could
4 leave Konjic any more.
5 Q. Just one more general question, Mr.
6 Jusufbegovic, did you have any personal experiences in
7 your attempts to send these seriously ill patients out
8 of Konjic?
9 A. Yes. My personal experiences related to some
10 time around 1 May 1992. We had chemo-dialysis in
11 Sarajevo. And there were six patients whose lives
12 depended on this chemo-dialysis and I personally took
13 them into ambulances to Sarajevo. At the village of
14 Bradina, there was a check point where we were stopped.
15 Q. Thank you, Doctor. Doctor, do you know
16 Zejnil Delalic?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Is it true that you were close friends?
19 A. Yes, that is correct.
20 Q. Can this friendship influence your
21 testimony? In other words, can you speak the full and
22 whole truth, regardless of this fact?
23 A. I have given a solemn declaration that I
24 would be speaking truth and nothing but the truth and I
25 will abide by that.
1 Q. As a friend of Mr. Zejnil Delalic, do you
2 know whether Mr. Zejnil Delalic, before the war or
3 during the war, was a member of any political party in
5 A. Mr. Zejnil Delalic did not belong to any
7 Q. Do you know whether he was a member of any
8 government body in Konjic?
9 A. He was not a member of any government body in
11 Q. Mr. Jusufbegovic, do you know whether Mr.
12 Zejnil Delalic, in the period before he became the
13 commander of a tactical group, did take part in any
14 combat operations?
15 A. I only know that he took part as a civilian
16 in transportation of material from the Celebici
17 barracks to the Ovcara farm, which was the
18 property of his sister's.
19 Q. Thank you. Mr. Jusufbegovic, were (redacted)
20 (redacted)Dr. Petko Grubac persons whom you know?
21 A. Yes, these are my long time colleagues. They
22 both worked in the same organisation where I worked,
23 and together with Dr. Grubac, I went to school.
24 Q. Mr. Jusufbegovic, do you know whether these
25 physicians, at some point in 1992, left your
2 A. Yes. In late April, I believe, I think it
3 was around 20th of April, they left our institution,
4 our organisation, and moved to Bradina.
5 Q. Dr. Jusufbegovic, do you know whether there
6 were any military activities conducted in Konjic in
7 order to lift the blockade of the town?
8 A. Yes. There were such activities in order to
9 lift a blockade of the town.
10 Q. Dr. Jusufbegovic, do you know that in the
11 course of these combat operations, (redacted)
12 Dr. Grubac were captured and detained?
13 A. Yes, I know that.
14 Q. Dr. Jusufbegovic, how did you find out and
15 from whom (redacted)
17 A. I found that out from Mr. Delalic.
18 Q. Could you describe this to us briefly?
19 A. Yes. Some time before dawn, I received a
20 call from Mr. Delalic. That was -- that night was very
21 busy. I don't know exactly how many wounded we
22 received that night, but we did work through the
23 night. I had just left to take a rest when the
24 physician on duty called me and told me that Mr.
25 Delalic was on the telephone asking for me. And we
1 talked and (redacted)
2 with him and that he would send him. If I accepted,
3 because he requested it, because he was on my staff,
4 that he was slightly injured and that he needed certain
5 medical help. And he also suggested in this
6 conversation that it would be good since I was already
7 deficient in medical staff, that we should keep the
8 doctor so that he would continue to work at the
9 hospital. I accepted this request and I agreed that
11 Q. Dr. Jusufbegovic, regarding this
12 conversation, can you perhaps recall whether Mr. Zejnil
13 Delalic told you who else was present there and whether
14 this other person is also requesting this favour?
15 A. Yes. He told me that Dinko Zebic had brought
18 Q. You have now twice stated that you were asked
19 by Mr. Zejnil Delalic to do this, can you tell me now
20 whether Mr. Zejnil Delalic issued you an order or could
21 he have issued you an order to do this?
22 A. No, there was no order issued. Zejnil
23 Delalic was no superior of mine. My organisation, that
24 is where I was the director, was reporting to its
25 founder and this was the municipal assembly. And at
1 this time, the war presidency had already been
2 established, so I only could have received an order
3 from the war presidency and its president.
4 Q. Mr. Jusufbegovic,(redacted)
5 (redacted) did you fulfil the request of
6 Mr. Zejnil Delalic and Mr. Dinko Zebic?
7 A. (redacted)
9 Q. Excuse me, before you go on, since you said
10 that there were a lot of wounded and injured and you
11 worked the whole day and night, can you tell me when
12 this all took place -- or, let me be very specific, was
13 this during the operations at Bradina?
14 A. Yes, exactly at that time. I believe that
15 the Bradina operation was not quite finished yet.
16 Q. Very well, now please go on, what happened
18 A. The staff was not in a great mood. The
19 rumours started going around that the doctor who had
20 left us, who was detained at Bradina is now supposed to
21 be working with us. And there are wounded persons,
22 people who were maimed who were coming from that same
23 area and it would be kind of awkward for me now to
24 accept him as a staff member.
25 Q. (redacted)
1 a while as a patient and what happened with him next?
2 A. I justified his stay there because he was a
3 patient. He was lightly injured and I wanted to sort
4 of pacify the staff and I received him in the
5 gynaecological ward, where I believe he stayed for two
7 Q. Dr. Jusufbegovic, did you later on learn, or
8 did you learn at all, that Dr. Petko Grubac was also
9 captured and detained at Bradina?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. As the director of the health centre, was it
12 part of your responsibility to immediately respond and
13 provide medical care to persons who were injured?
14 A. Yes, certainly. We provided first aid to any
15 person who was injured, regardless of who they were.
16 My institution never discriminated between any --
17 between any kind of -- different patients or injured,
18 regardless of who they were. We only prioritise by the
19 degree of emergency.
20 Q. Doctor, you said that there was a lot of work
21 during those couple of days, did you learn whether
22 there were injured persons among those who were
23 offering resistance to the defence forces in those
25 A. Yes, there were injured.
1 Q. As director of the health centre and as a
2 physician, did you do what was necessary in order to
3 examine these injured persons? And if you did, can you
4 tell us what it was that you did?
5 A. We immediately established a commission,
6 which was tasked with examining all the injured, to
7 provide medical care, the first aid; for those who
8 needed additional medical care, those persons were to
9 be transferred to the hospital where they could be
10 provided such care. And members of this commission
11 included a surgeon, Rusmir Hadzihuseinovic, then it was
12 Dr. Hajduk and myself.
13 Q. Where did you conduct the examination of
14 these detained persons?
15 A. The examination was conducted in an
16 administration building at Celebici.
17 Q. Were the examined persons provided adequate
18 medical care at that time, that is a kind of medical
19 care that your health centre was able to provide at the
21 A. Yes, we did provide adequate care to all
22 persons who were in need of it.
23 Q. Doctor, now let us switch over to another
24 topic. Tell me, in the course of 1992, in any point of
25 time, were you ever engaged in liberating your
1 colleagues, (redacted) and Dr. Grubac?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Can you describe to us or tell us how this
4 took place, at whose request, and tell us everything
5 you know about it?
6 A. Well, this happened at the end of July, and
7 it was the second half of July, actually. One evening
8 in my surgery, I was -- I had a telephone call from Mr.
9 Delalic and he told me that on that day, Grubac Gordana
10 had visited him that day, who is the wife of Dr.
11 Grubac. Perhaps she asked for me, but she couldn't
12 find me for some reason and he was very surprised that
13 those persons were still being detained and that
14 something should be done as -- being friends of those
15 doctors, he was their friend and I was even in family
16 relations with Dr. Grubac because we were, in fact,
17 witnesses at our marriages. And that -- and then I
18 tried to meet that request as quickly and as fast as I
19 could, as quickly as possible. We'd agreed that on the
20 following morning, Mr. Delalic should come to me and
21 that we should make use of all our friends and
22 connections because I must say, publicly, in front of
23 this court, that friendly relations are very much in
24 fashion even today and that is how business is usually
25 concluded. And our agreement was, in fact, being
1 implemented the following morning.
2 Q. Dr. Jusufbegovic, the next morning, did Mr.
3 Delalic, in accordance with that agreement, come to
4 you, and what did you do on that day to help Dr. Grubac
5, (redacted) helping them to be released?
6 A. Mr. Delalic came with his driver and I said
7 to him, "I will go to 100 doors, knock at 100 doors in
8 Konjic to see what can be done and to do everything I
9 can to have these doctors released." Mr. Delalic
10 remained in hospital, because it was a general war
11 hospital, to see some of the wounded. I went to the
12 civilian protection unit, to the military investigative
13 commission, and all the people that I believed to be
14 willing to help, I looked for such people.
15 Unfortunately, I was not able to conclude this business
16 because these people could not give me the records
17 which could make it possible for these people to leave
18 the prison.
19 Q. Did you see Mr. Delalic on that day again?
20 A. Yes. We met again and I told him, I told
21 Zejnil, that I was not able to finish the business as
22 we had thought we could.
23 Q. Did you then and from whom find out that
24 Zejnil Delalic was in a certain way a party to the
25 signing of a document for the release of a certain
2 A. Yes. Zejnil remembered a few days before,
3 that on the basis of a consent of one of the
4 commanders, he signed the release sheet in the military
5 investigative command or in the Territorial Defence.
6 Then his driver went off, and after an hour or so, he
7 brought us those two papers, those discharge sheets
8 from the prison.
9 Q. Doctor, on that day, did you talk to anyone
10 else about the release of those doctors in addition to
11 Mr. Zejnil Delalic?
12 A. Yes, I spoke to a number of people, but the
13 key person who was able to help was the commander. I
14 told him, since I have these papers with me, I have to
15 find Esad Ramic who was commander at the time and that
16 I would ask him for this because I'm responsible for
17 those doctors, and I could not really figure out or
18 understand that they had been in a conspiracy or that
19 they had done anything bad. I really wished to see
20 them released and that I would continue to be
21 responsible for them.
22 Q. Before I ask you the following question,
23 could you tell me when you heard that they had been
24 detained, did you hear from anyone why these doctors
25 were being detained, the reasons?
1 A. Yes. The reason was -- on the basis of
2 unofficial stories, I did not speak to anyone
3 officially in the health centres in Bradina when arms
4 had been found during the liberation operations in
5 Bradina. This was the reason why they had been
6 detained along with other people.
7 Q. Mr. Jusufbegovic, did you learn on that
8 occasion that Commander Ramic had been wounded and that
9 someone was standing in for him and who was that
11 A. Yes. I learned that Commander Ramic had been
12 wounded and that he had been taken to Split to be
13 treated and that his replacement was Mr. Mekmed Cerovac
14 and which made me happy, I must say quite sincerely,
15 because I was friendly with him and we had cooperated
16 well when the war started.
17 As soon as I learned that fact, I took from
18 Zejnil Delalic his radio station and we found Commander
19 Cerovac, and I explained about the doctors and I
20 mentioned they had learned in Konjic, while we were
21 looking for the release papers, (redacted)
22 (redacted) had no role in the rebellion and in the
23 problem of arms being found in Bradina. That had
24 nothing to do with them, but was with Zuza Milan
25 (phoen) which the arms were found, and this was all
1 confirmed and investigated so that they were clean. I
2 promised Commander Cerovac that I would take further
3 care of those doctors.
4 Q. Mr. Jusufbegovic, in that discussion, was it
5 ever discussed about who would look after those
6 detainees and take care of their injuries?
7 A. Yes, because these doctors had already been
8 with the detainees and had been treated, I suggested
9 since they were good in their profession that they
10 should supervise those detainees.
11 Q. Tell me, what was the reaction of Mr. Cerovac
12 who was replacing Commander Ramic?
13 A. After my request and the explanations I had
14 given him, with regard to the doctors and their
15 situation, and that I intended for them to continue
16 taking care of the detainees, he said, "All right.
17 Give me Zejnil on the phone." He spoke with Zejnil,
18 and at one moment while they were talking, I saw that
19 Zejnil had a smile on his face and he said, "Now we are
20 successful." In fact, he finished the talk with
21 Cerovac, and he said, "Yes, sir," and he said that
22 Cerovac had told him that he should act in the same way
23 as with the previous cases, taxi (sic) cases, so that
24 he was fully supported by him and that he could sign on
25 his behalf that these doctors be released.
1 Q. Mr. Jusufbegovic, was that document signed by
2 Mr. Delalic in your presence after the talk you had
3 with Mr. Cerovac?
4 A. Yes, it was signed in my office.
5 Q. Do you remember if everything else on the
6 document, everything written in the document was
7 written in your office?
8 A. Yes, everything.
9 Q. Mr. Jusufbegovic, tell me whether you
10 personally took that document to Celebici? Were you
11 actually present when these people were released?
12 A. No. I did not hand over that document. That
13 document was handed over, submitted by the driver of
14 Mr. Delalic. In the first variant, this document
15 remained with me because Mr. Delalic and his driver
16 were to go to Vranske Stijene where they had come from
17 the day before, to the Vranske Mountain. But in the
18 evening when they returned and when shelling was very
19 heavy, and that part of Konjic had been shelled and the
20 upper part of the road too, and they were unable to
21 pass and they came back. They asked me if I had sent
22 that document.
23 On that day, however, there was a heavy
24 shelling of Konjic. There were many people injured,
25 and we had to admit the injured. Then I was working as
1 a specialist in internal medicine, more so than a
2 director. You had to calm down these people. Before
3 they were being operated, you had to reanimate these
4 people after the operation. In early afternoon,
5 between the afternoon, in the evening, I was very busy
6 so I did not have hand over that paper personally.
7 Q. Did you know in the course of that evening or
8 that night that these people had been released and did
9 any of these doctors call you to tell you that?
10 A. Yes. Somewhere late in the night, it was
11 after 11 p.m., perhaps even midnight, I was called to
12 the telephone and I spoke to Mr. Zejnil Delalic and he
13 said that the doctors had come and that they were in
14 his apartment.
15 Q. Did you propose something vis-à-vis the
16 doctors to take it easy, to come to work or something
18 A. Well, I suggested to Dr. Grubac that he
19 should take a rest for a certain time, and then
20 afterwards we would see what he would do and what sort
21 of job he would do. (redacted)
22 that he should come the following day to me, which he
23 did, perhaps not on that day or the day after, I'm not
24 quite sure, but Dr. Relja came to me. I suggested that
25 he should come and visit us and that he should treat
1 the wounded and, in fact, he continued to treat them.
2 Q. Thank you, Dr. Jusufbegovic, thank you very
3 much. Do you know whether Zejnil Delalic, at that
4 particular time, at the time we are discussing now when
5 the doctors were released or perhaps earlier or later,
6 was a person who could have arrested anyone in Konjic?
7 A. This is funny. A person who can arrest can
8 release. He could neither arrest them, nor release
9 them. If he had been able to do so, he wouldn't have
10 had to address me for help in releasing someone. So
11 Delalic could do neither. He could only ask someone to
12 help him in the same way that I asked for help.
13 Q. Mr. Jusufbegovic, at any moment in 1992, did
14 Mr. Delalic, was he a superior authority to you?
15 A. No, no question of this. My superior
16 institution was the municipal assembly who organised
17 us. As far as military matters are concerned, if they
18 needed cars or medical equipment, the body in question
19 was the Territorial Defence.
20 Q. Mr. Jusufbegovic, do you know whether
21 Mr. Delalic, at any point in time in 1992, became a
22 military commander?
23 A. I know that. In the beginning of August,
24 Zejnil Delalic was appointed commander of Tactical
25 Group 1.
1 Q. Mr. Jusufbegovic, were you ever a member of
2 the command of TG-1?
3 A. No. I simply did not belong to any military
4 formation. I was a director of the health centre and I
5 was a doctor.
6 Q. Mr. Jusufbegovic, do you know whether
7 Mr. Zejnil Delalic, in the course of 1992, whether he
8 had any conflicts with certain persons from the HVO of
9 Konjic? If you know this from your own personal
10 experience, please tell the court.
11 A. Yes, I'm familiar with that. Zejnil Delalic,
12 at the beginning of the war, he had good relations with
13 leaders of the HVO defence. Afterwards, these
14 relations were sent (sic) and the reasons for this was
15 that at one point in time, the HVO began to act in an
16 inadequate way. They appropriated private and socially
17 owned property, some of the machines and personal
18 vehicles, trucks. They simply appropriated and took
19 them to Grude to Western Herzegovina.
20 Q. Have you any personal experience of the HVO
21 behaving in that way?
22 A. Yes, I do. I have a very bad experience.
23 The main commander, Mr. Ivica Azinovic, one day came to
24 my surgery. He wanted to have a discussion with me
25 while I was treating a patient. He took a car, a
1 Renault 25, and we didn't even have a key because the
2 mechanic was a Serb. He had taken the car.
3 Q. Were there any similar cases?
4 A. In a few days, even though I had addressed
5 the war presidency --
6 Q. This is the last question to the witness.
7 Did Mr. Delalic react to such behaviour and was this
8 one of the reasons why propaganda was spreading in his
10 A. Yes, exactly. I told Delalic and other
11 people, "What is happening to me? They are taking my
12 ambulances, my vehicles. I'm without vehicles now."
13 Zejnil Delalic entered into conflict with them and then
14 they, in fact, blamed him for many things. They said
15 he was a Chetnik and other things.
16 MS. RESIDOVIC: Thank you very much, Doctor,
17 for having come as a witness. I have just completed my
18 examination of this witness. Thank you.
19 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: This is a witness common
20 to almost all of the accused persons from the list of
21 witnesses. I hope you will take advantage of it if you
22 have any questions. Do you have any cross-examination
23 or any examination of him?
24 MR. OLUJIC: Your Honour, I have no questions
25 of this witness.
1 MR. KARABDIC: I would like to ask a few
2 questions, Your Honours.
3 Cross-examined by Mr. Karabdic
4 Q. Mr. Jusufbegovic, my name is Salih Karabdic
5 and I'm defending Mr. Delic. I would like to ask a few
6 questions for clarification, which you have given in
7 response to the questions of my colleague.
8 Do you know Hazim Delic?
9 A. Yes, I do.
10 Q. Did he ever come as a patient to your health
11 centre, which you ran, and was he ever given any
12 medical assistance?
13 A. Well, Hazim Delic was admitted to our
14 institution as a wounded person, a person who had a
15 large injury on one of his legs, on the lower part of
16 his legs. I don't know exactly when this was.
17 Q. Can you perhaps be more accurate, perhaps
18 whether it was at the beginning of the war? Can you
19 remember the month, if you cannot remember the exact
21 A. Well, it was in the middle of that period, of
22 the period we are discussing.
23 Q. Do you know what sort of treatment he was
24 given and how long this lasted? What was his condition
25 when he was released and what was his health situation
1 once he was released from hospital?
2 A. Well, he had a serious bodily injury. It was
3 a section of the tissues, blood vessels, and he was
4 operated on under narcosis in our operation theatre.
5 He stayed at hospital for the time necessary for the
6 wound to heal. Perhaps we even released him earlier
7 than was proper and then I saw him walking on crutches.
8 Q. Was his leg put in a cast?
9 A. Yes, of course. After the treatment and the
10 operation, the cast was applied.
11 Q. Thank you. After that, did you have any
12 further contacts with Mr. Delic? Did he come to you
13 for some other business?
14 A. Yes. Hazim Delic in the month of June, he
15 came on a number of occasions. I think at least once a
16 week he came for medication and bandages and he also --
17 and Dr. Petko Mrkajic and (redacted) were actually addressed
18 by him for such medication. I wasn't dispensing that
19 medication. This was done by people who work in the
20 pharmacy or the senior nurse who had this function in
21 our institution. But first, he would always address me
22 first and then he would be directed to these others.
23 Of course, I must mention once again that we had
24 tremendous shortages at the time.
25 Q. Do you know what sort of medication did he
1 asked for?
2 A. Well, analgesics basically, and at one moment
3 I think he asked for various medications and creams
4 against scabies, but basically he asked for
5 analgesics or some of the antipyretics or antibiotics
6 which are normally prescribed for colds.
7 Q. Do you remember whether medication was
8 requested for diabetes?
9 A. Yes. This was something that was very much
10 in demand, these medications for diabetes.
11 Q. You mentioned and told us that you were in
12 Celebici, as a member of the commission, in order to
13 examine the prisoners. Was this immediately after the
14 liberation of Bradina?
15 A. Yes. This was immediately after the
16 liberation of Bradina in the afternoon hours.
17 Q. When you were in Celebici, immediately after
18 the liberation of Bradina, did you see prisoners lined
19 up near the administration building, that is, against
20 the wall, and did you see them being beaten? Were
21 there any prisoners there?
22 A. No. The answer is no. In this
23 administration building, we conducted an examination of
24 the injured and they were coming to us one by one,
25 these injured persons. The medical technician or nurse
1 would lead them into the office.
2 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: I think we might adjourn
3 until 2.30 for lunch so that you will continue your
4 cross-examination at that time.
5 MR. KARABDIC: Thank you.
6 --- Luncheon recess taken at 1.02 p.m.
1 --- On resuming at 2.35 p.m.
2 (The witness entered court)
3 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Please remind the
4 witness he's still under oath.
5 THE REGISTRAR: I remind you, sir, that you
6 are still under oath.
7 MR. KARABDIC: May I continue, Your Honour?
8 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Yes, you may proceed.
9 MR. KARABDIC: Thank you.
10 Q. Mr. Jusufbegovic, I have several additional
11 questions for you. As I have previously asked you, you
12 were at Celebici and you conducted an examination in
13 the administration building following the events at
14 Bradina. Did you see whether anybody in your presence
15 tortured or mistreated prisoners in any way?
16 A. No. I did not see such things.
17 Q. Did you see prisoners lined up against the
18 wall where they were beaten?
19 A. No.
20 Q. Would you have seen that while you were
21 examining persons there in the administration building,
22 in other words, would you know about it?
23 A. Yes, we would, because the building was a low
25 Q. Thank you, you said that you examined
1 prisoners, what were the prisoners complaints? Why did
2 they ask to be examined, what were the types of
3 injuries that they had sustained?
4 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Why don't you allow him
5 to answer before? You've asked him too many
6 questions. Put your next question.
7 MR. KARABDIC: Thank you, Your Honour. Thank
8 you for your advice.
9 THE WITNESS: This was immediately after the
10 deliberation of Bradina. For the most part, these were
11 light body injuries. There were very few cases where
12 there were more serious injuries involved.
13 Q. These more serious injuries, how were they
14 inflicted? Could you ascertain? Could you make any
15 judgements on that?
16 A. Most of them were something that was made
17 with -- had been inflicted with blunt objects and there
18 were some scratches.
19 Q. Were there any firearm inflicted injuries?
20 A. I believe that there was one, maybe two.
21 And, again, people were just touched with it.
22 Q. Could you ascertain whether any of these
23 injuries were produced by any kind of rifle butts or
24 other objects, such as belts or other things?
25 JUDGE JAN: Belt, that would be a blunt
1 weapon injury.
2 MR. KARABDIC:
3 Q. Doctor, is it true that since -- between the
4 beginning of the hostilities and the events at Bradina,
5 is it true that there was a number of civilians and TO
6 members who were injured?
7 A. Yes, there was a number of persons injured
8 before that.
9 Q. Doctor, is it true that you only received
10 one -- just a part of these people who sought some
11 assistance, that is, only those who managed to get to
12 the hospital and that the number of them was actually
13 larger, that certain persons never made it all the way
14 to the hospitals, but were -- but received medical
15 attention elsewhere?
16 A. Yes, that is correct. There were various
17 reasons why certain people were not able to reach the
19 Q. Doctor, if I were to tell you that until 26
20 May 1992, your hospital received 27 civilians who were
21 injured and that six of them were killed, and that
22 during this period of time, that five members of the TO
23 had been killed, but only one received in the
24 hospital. Would you agree with me regarding these
1 A. Yes, I would. These data are correct.
2 Q. Can I tell you that -- if I were to tell you
3 that to your hospital, 423 wounded persons and 1,000 --
4 and that there were 449 persons who were in the
5 military personnel, would you agree with those figures
6 of people who reached your hospital?
7 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Is counsel giving
8 evidence or you got this from the witness? Is this
9 your evidence or you got it from some other witness?
10 MR. KARABDIC: I did not receive anything
11 from the witness, we received this data at a hospital.
12 We asked of the hospital administration to provide us
13 with this data. And this data has been supplied in the
14 expert witness report. I would now like the witness to
15 be shown Exhibit No. D-44-A 42/1.
16 MS. RESIDOVIC: Apologies, sir, the number is
17 not correct. It is 44 not 144-A.
18 JUDGE JAN: What is this document about?
19 MR. KARABDIC: This is a document of the
20 general hospital in Sarajevo, of the number of dead and
21 injured, during the war. I would like it to be shown
22 to the witness.
23 JUDGE JAN: How is it relevant to the purpose
24 of the defence? You're concerned with what happened in
1 MR. KARABDIC: Anything relating to the
2 hospital cannot be separated from what happened in
3 Celebici because this was a general situation. It is
4 the ambience in which everything happened.
5 JUDGE JAN: A much larger number was killed
6 and a much larger number of people were injured, how
7 would that help you in defending the charges against
8 your client? A lot of things happened in Konjic.
9 Everything is not relevant.
10 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Actually, try to
11 identify the situation in Konjic, is it? In the Konjic
12 Municipality? Is this what you are trying to
14 MR. KARABDIC: Right.
15 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: How does it assist you?
16 When you started, I was asking you how it all came
17 about because I really don't see.
18 JUDGE JAN: We have already evidence that
19 Konjic was shelled, a number of persons must have been
20 injured, a number of persons must have been killed.
21 How does that evidence now help you in defending the
22 charges against your client? Specific charges, what
23 happened in Celebici camp?
24 MR. KARABDIC: Among other things, he is
25 charged with inhumane conditions at Celebici and many
1 other things.
2 JUDGE JAN: In Celebici camp, how do these
3 things which happened in Konjic --
4 MR. KARABDIC: But these conditions here are
5 linked, to the situation in Celebici, to the condition
6 in Celebici, because the way things were in Konjic
7 could not be better than that in Celebici. We are
8 asked -- it seems like the standard has been set as if
9 there was a -- the conditions at Celebici should be
10 like in the Majo Clinic or some place, but they
11 couldn't have been any better than they were in Konjic.
12 JUDGE JAN: Confine yourself to your defence.
13 MR. KARABDIC: This is a fact. And this is
14 what we would like to show. I was also shelled in
15 Sarajevo and this is what we would like the court to
16 see. And the numbers that are here can illustrate
17 this, even though it was even worse than the way it
18 is -- it has been stated here. So I would like to be
19 allowed to show the witness this.
20 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Out of the shelling and
21 how many who are left and how many people were now in
22 the camp in Celebici? No, you may proceed, you may
23 proceed. But just -- it has nothing to do with your
24 defence as a whole.
25 MR. KARABDIC: Thank you, Your Honours. I
1 would like to have D-144-A (iv) 2/1. If that could be
2 shown to the witness.
3 THE REGISTRAR: The document is before the
5 MR. KARABDIC: Thank you. Let me ask the
6 question now.
7 Q. Is there a stamp of this hospital affixed to
8 this document?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Does it state here that Dr. Savo Mrkajic, or
11 the director of the hospital, was he director of the
12 hospital at the end of 1992?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Do you recognise his signature?
15 A. I recognise the signature and, yes, he was
16 the director.
17 Q. Are the data that are quoted in this document
19 A. Yes, they are correct.
20 Q. I tender this document as the defence -- as
21 defence evidence?
22 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: It's not his document,
23 is it? He didn't make it. It doesn't even come
24 from -- did it come from his hospital?
25 MR. KARABDIC: But it's from his hospital
1 where he is a director. He recognised the signature of
2 the former director and he recognised the stamp.
3 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: If it's from his
4 hospital, I suppose he can.
5 MR. KARABDIC:
6 Q. Did you say that it is from your hospital?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. This is all, Your Honours. Thank you, Mr.
10 MR. KARABDIC: Your Honour, this witness is
11 also on our list of witnesses and we -- he has
12 testified to all the points that were relevant for your
13 Defence, so we are not going to be calling him during
14 the presentation of the defence for Mr. Hazim Delic.
15 Thank you.
16 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: I know he's on the list
17 of all of you and I expect you to take advantage of his
19 MS. McMURREY: We have no questions of this
20 witness, Your Honour.
21 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Thank you. Prosecution,
22 any questions? -- I mean cross-examination.
23 MR. TURONE: Thank you, Your Honour
24 Cross-examined by Mr. Turone.
25 Q. Good morning, Dr. Jusufbegovic, my name is
1 Giuliano Turone and I am an attorney for the
2 prosecution and I have some questions for you, if you
3 don't mind. Dr. Jusufbegovic, you member, I suppose
4 that you gave a statement to a representative of the
5 Defence in Konjic in June '96, isn't that true?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. You said in that prior statement that you
8 headed some negotiating committee, which had two
9 meetings with the Serbs, one in Bradina and one in
10 Repovci; is that correct?
11 A. That's correct.
12 Q. Can you please tell me who were the other
13 members of this negotiating committee, from your side
14 first? And who were the Serb counterparts?
15 A. Yes, these were for the most part, on our
16 side, even though, at that time, these were not two
17 different sides, but since you're asking me in this
18 way, on our side it was the local people from Repovci,
19 and on the other side was the locals from Bradina and
20 their main representative, who at that time who was
21 some kind of a deputy, was Mr. Savo Mrkajic.
22 Q. Thank you, doctor. And did Dr. Grubac and
23 (redacted) take part in the negotiations
24 sometimes or not?
25 A. No, they did not take part.
1 Q. Did Mr. Delalic ever join this negotiating
2 committee or any of these meetings? I mean, you said
3 in your previous statement that Delalic joined your
4 endeavours to keep the Serbs in Konjic; isn't that
6 JUDGE JAN: They are two different things.
7 Persuading Serbs to stay in Konjic, probably is
8 different from taking part in the negotiations relating
9 to Bradina. Let's not mix up the two.
10 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Which is your real
11 question, whether Delalic was a member of the committee
12 or whether he --
13 MR. TURONE: Thank you, Your Honours.
14 Q. Did Delalic ever join this negotiating
15 committee or any of its meetings first?
16 JUDGE JAN: Relating to Bradina.
17 MR. TURONE: Yes.
18 A. Delalic was not in Bradina. He was
19 negotiating in Ostrozac which was a different locality
20 and he negotiated with Manigoda.
21 Q. Thank you. Let's go to the second point
22 then. You said in a prior statement that Delalic
23 joined in your endeavours to keep the Serbs in Konjic.
24 Which kind of a contribution did he give in this
1 MS. RESIDOVIC: The witness responded that he
2 had negotiated with Manigoda.
3 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: I think he might be able
4 to answer the question, not necessarily the same. Let
5 him answer. The witness can answer the question.
6 A. Zejnil Delalic was involved in negotiations
7 with Manigoda, as I stated. After that, they
8 surrendered their weapons and the entire village and
9 that whole area was very grateful to him. And to date,
10 they continue to live there and they have not been
11 harmed or touched.
12 MR. TURONE:
13 Q. Thank you, Doctor. Am I correct that all
14 these efforts you are talking about and the
15 negotiations you took part in to maintain peace with
16 the Serb side, took place before the take-over of the
17 Celebici barracks?
18 A. It was certainly before.
19 Q. Thank you. You then said that the
20 negotiations were unfortunately unproductive and that
21 at some time in April a blockade was created in
22 Bradina; is that correct?
23 A. That is correct. The negotiations failed and
24 there was a blockade that was at the entrance of
25 Bradina, coming from Konjic.
1 Q. Dr. Jusufbegovic, during the negotiations or
2 right after they turned out to be unproductive, were
3 you ever threatened by anybody from the Serb side?
4 A. I personally was not.
5 Q. You also said, I believe, that the blockade
6 in Bradina was eliminated when Bradina was liberated
7 through a military operation, is that correct, that, as
8 far as you know, it was a joint operation carried on by
9 TO, HVO and MUP?
10 A. Yes, that is correct.
11 Q. Did anybody from Repovci take part in the
12 operation of Bradina, as far as you know?
13 A. I don't know.
14 MS. RESIDOVIC: I object. I think that we
15 must first establish whether the witness was present at
16 all because these are merely hypothetical questions.
17 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: He's cross-examining the
18 witness, so he can ask him questions which will induce
19 other questions. You may proceed.
20 MR. TURONE: Thank you, Your Honour.
21 Q. Doctor, were you a member of the TO at that
22 time or not?
23 A. No. I was never a member of any military
25 Q. Are you aware of some kind of coordination
1 carried on by Delalic during the Bradina operation?
2 A. No. Delalic had no role in liberating
4 Q. You are aware that --
5 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: You didn't listen to his
6 answer. You're talking about liberating Bradina. Your
7 question was a coordination responsibility. They are
8 not the same.
9 MR. TURONE: Yes.
10 Q. I asked whether you are aware that Delalic
11 had any coordination capacity during the Bradina
13 A. No. I said I didn't know that.
14 Q. Are you aware, in any case, that Delalic was
15 in the area of Bradina, on some hill, of the area from
16 which he could observe the action?
17 A. I don't know.
18 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: He has said it. He
19 doesn't know.
20 MR. TURONE:
21 Q. Did you yourself, Dr. Jusufbegovic, have any
22 chance to go to the Bradina area during those days and
23 observe the military operation or not?
24 A. No.
25 Q. Dr. Jusufbegovic, you testified today that
1 right after the liberation of Bradina, Delalic rang you
2 up and told you about (redacted)
3 in Bradina. Is that correct that this telephone call
4 arrived very, very early in the morning on 27 May, so
5 the very morning after the operation in Bradina?
6 MS. RESIDOVIC: The witness had answered
7 already that that happened before dawn in the course of
8 the Bradina operation.
9 MR. TURONE: Your Honour, he didn't say
10 precisely which was the day.
11 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Perhaps the witness
12 might assist by answering the question.
13 MR. TURONE:
14 Q. Is that correct, that it was very early in
15 the morning before dawn on May 27?
16 A. I think so. I think it happened that way.
17 Q. Doctor, you also said (redacted)
18 together with Delalic, when Delalic rang you up. Why
19 was (redacted) brought into the house of Delalic,
20 after having been arrested in Bradina?
21 A. He was taken there, that is, driven there by
22 Zebic, and I don't know why he was brought there,
23 probably to call me given our friendly relations with
24 those doctors.
25 Q. All right. (redacted)
3 A. I don't know that.
4 Q. Thank you. Is it correct that in this
5 telephone conversation, Delalic told you also something
6 about the participation or non-participation of people
7 from Repovci in the operation of Bradina?
8 A. No. The topic of our conversation relating
9 to Repovci was something to do with some food which was
10 supposed to go to those people in Repovci. We did not
11 discuss other matters relating to Repovci because the
12 talk we had was very short indeed.
13 Q. You said that after this telephone
14 conversation, (redacted)
15 centre and remained there a couple of days for
16 treatment. Do you know who actually drove him from the
17 house of Delalic to the medical centre?
18 A. No, I don't know that.
19 Q. During his stay at the medical centre for
20 treatment, (redacted)
21 A. No, God forbid.
22 Q. You mean he was free to leave the medical
23 centre? He was not a prisoner; is that your testimony?
24 A. No, he was not a prisoner. He was not
25 guarded by the army. He was in a ward where women were
1 accommodated. He could move around freely. No one
2 even considered him to be a prisoner. Mr. Delalic had
3 asked me to have him remain there to work there. This
4 was Mr. Delalic's request.
5 Q. You said this morning that he was arrested
6 and he was in state of prisoner when Delalic called you
7 that morning; isn't that true?
8 A. I don't know. I said that he had been
9 arrested already in Bradina or else where Dinko Zebic
10 freed him and brought him to Mr. Delalic.
11 Q. Do you mean that when he reached the medical
12 centre, he had already been released; is that what you
13 testify to?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. This morning you testified that he was
16 released at the end of July. That means that he was
17 arrested a second time; is that your testimony?
18 A. I would like to clarify this point. It was
19 then that we decided, that is, the presidency and the
20 health centre decided, that those who were injured and
21 who needed medical care, a unit should be opened in the
22 elementary school and that Dr. Zuza, (redacted)
23 Grubac should be there to care for the injured who were
24 accommodated there. From the hospital, he went to the
25 elementary school, the 3rd of March is the name of the
1 school, to help out.
2 Q. I'm sorry. It's not very clear for me. Are
3 you meaning that he was again arrested in order to send
4 him to the 3rd of March School to treat prisoners?
5 A. I don't understand your question.
6 Q. What I asked you a few minutes ago, Doctor,
7 since you said that after the telephone call from
8 Mr. Delalic, (redacted)
9 but he arrived there free and not as a prisoner because
10 he had been already released. My question was then,
11 when you say that he was released in late July, does
12 that mean that he was arrested for a second time, and
13 you have been answering me -- your answer was, "We
14 decided he had to treat prisoners at the medical
15 centre." Then my next question was: Does that mean
16 that he was again arrested in order to have him treat
17 prisoners at the 3rd of March School?
18 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Please, let's get it a
19 little clearer. Will you kindly ask him in what
20 condition he came to him at the hospital because he has
21 given evidence that he wasn't there under any
22 restraints, that he put him inside the female ward, in
23 the gynaecological ward, so let's get it step by step.
24 MR. TURONE: Yes. I'll repeat one of my
25 previous questions.
1 Q. Dr. Jusufbegovic, during his stay at the
2 medical centre for treatment, (redacted)
3 prisoner or a free person?
4 A. He was free, but what his status was
5 concerning the military authorities, I don't know. But
6 as my colleague, he had no guards to watch him, to look
7 after him. While he was there, he had the status of a
8 fully free man who was taken into custody, charged with
9 something that I was not responsible to know.
10 Q. Isn't it true that Delalic ordered
11 (redacted) to be brought to the medical centre instead
12 of back to prison?
13 A. That's not true. Delalic never ordered me at
14 all. He never ordered me. I simply mentioned that he
15 had requested this of me.
16 Q. Sorry. This was not my question, Doctor. My
17 question was: Isn't it true that Delalic ordered
18 (redacted) not you, to be brought to the medical
19 centre instead of back to prison?
20 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: The witness might not
21 know what was done. He barely met his colleague in
22 this hospital.
23 MR. TURONE: All right. I'll pass to another
25 Q. You said in a prior statement, and you have
1 also repeated here, that since the other people in the
2 hospital would not have the doctors from Bradina
3 practise in the hospital, (redacted)
4 and Dr. Grubac would take care of the sick and wounded
5 Serbs in the 3rd of March School; is that correct?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Did you personally decide to send these two
8 doctors to the 3rd of March School?
9 A. Yes, with my colleague doctors.
10 Q. Do you know what was the status of the two
11 doctors when they were sent to the 3rd of March School,
12 whether they were free or prisoners?
13 A. They were prisoners.
14 Q. Did you have the power to issue such an order
15 to bring two prisoners to the 3rd of March School
16 instead of letting them go back to the prison?
17 A. I said that in the 3rd of March School, we
18 opened up a health unit, a medical unit. We, in fact,
19 selected amongst the injured and accommodated some of
20 them at this school. Since these doctors were together
21 with those prisoners, it was only natural that they
22 should care for them. That was my opinion and I think
23 I already expressed it.
24 Q. My question was: Did you have the power to
25 issue such an order concerning where a prisoner should
2 A. I suggested, I proposed this as the best
3 possible solution to have these people accommodated in
4 this school and the proposal I put forward was
6 Q. Yes, I agree with that entirely, but you
7 proposed, suggested that to whom?
8 A. I proposed this to the war presidency and via
9 the war presidency to the MUP.
10 Q. Dr. Jusufbegovic, you said that you visited
11 Celebici prison with Dr. Rusmir Hadzihuseinovic. Can
12 you say in which day did that happen, considering that
13 the Bradina operation took place on 25 and 26 of May?
14 A. I think that this happened when the operation
15 was over.
16 Q. Do you remember, can you say more precisely
17 whether it was after one day, two days or three days?
18 A. I think it was on the second day in the
19 afternoon hours, the second day in the afternoon hours.
20 Q. You mean the second day after the end of the
22 A. No. The second day after the beginning of
23 the operation, I think it was on the 27th, I think.
24 Q. Okay. Who let you in the camp when you got
25 there? Who allowed you and Rusmir to enter the camp to
1 this visit?
2 A. There were policemen from the MUP there.
3 Q. Can you say approximately how many patients
4 did you examine?
5 A. About 40 patients were examined.
6 Q. Could you describe briefly the conditions of
7 these approximately 40 persons you could visit there?
8 A. They were basically people suffering from
9 lighter physical injuries. Some, only, perhaps, two
10 were more seriously injured.
11 Q. You testified a few minutes ago during the
12 last cross-examination that a number of the prisoners
13 had injuries inflicted with blunt objects. Do you
14 agree with me that then you saw prisoners with evidence
15 of beating?
16 A. I said that these were injuries inflicted
17 through war activities and I am not an expert doctor
18 to, in fact, identify the way in which the injuries had
19 been inflicted.
20 Q. But do you agree with me that you have been
21 talking about blunt objects? Is that correct?
22 A. Under the term of "blunt objects", I mean all
23 injuries inflicted by objects that are not firearms.
24 Q. Okay. You said you see prisoners there with
25 different health problems, which kind of health
1 problems did you find besides what you said so far?
2 A. Well, amongst them, we had the people that we
3 examined. There were several people who suffered from
4 diabetes earlier on, who suffered from high blood
5 pressure. There were cardiac patients whom, for whom
6 we thought best to be isolated and placed in the 3rd of
7 March School.
8 Q. Did you write on a medical record, on any
9 kind of book, notes on the examination of the medical
10 examinations concerning the visit to prisoners?
11 A. Yes. There was the protocol where we would
12 have the name of visitor, the name, the date of birth
13 and the diagnosis, this is what we wrote down.
14 Q. And where would that book, that record, that
15 protocol be now?
16 A. No idea.
17 Q. So you were not in a position to find it?
18 A. I didn't even look for it.
19 Q. But if you should look for it, do you think
20 you might find it?
21 A. In my institution I cannot find any of the
22 records from the war because all of them were destroyed
23 by shelling and I cannot really even contemplate
24 finding a book that was destroyed six years prior.
25 Q. That's right, thank you. Besides writing
1 down in this protocol, what measures did you take after
2 these visits?
3 A. Well, the measure was to have these people
4 accommodated in the 3rd of March Schools, so as to
5 provide them complete medical care, under the existing
7 Q. All right. And did you speak with anybody in
8 charge of the prison, in this occasion?
9 A. No.
10 Q. Do you know who was the commander of the camp
11 when you and Rusmir was there?
12 A. I think it was run by the MUP and the name of
13 the person in charge I think was Musinovic,
14 nicknamed Rale -- Miralem, I'm sorry.
15 Q. Who was the deputy commander as far as you
17 A. I don't know.
18 Q. Do you know Mr. Pavo Mucic?
19 A. Yes, I know Pavo Mucic.
20 Q. Was he present there during these visits
21 inside Celebici?
22 A. No, no, I didn't see him there. It was
23 the -- only that one time that I was in Celebici.
24 Q. And do you know, Mr. Hazim Delic?
25 MS. RESIDOVIC: He has already answered that
2 MR. TURONE:
3 Q. I don't know whether he said or not whether
4 Mr. Delic was there during these visits?
5 A. I didn't see him then.
6 Q. Okay, thank you. I understand that you said
7 just now, that you were in Celebici only this time and
8 no other time, is that correct? Did you go there any
9 other time?
10 A. Only on that occasion, as far as the
11 prisoners were concerned. I was there once again in
12 August during the swearing in ceremony where I was
13 invited and many other people during that ceremonial
14 occasion, but I had nothing to do with the prisoners
15 there because they were separated.
16 Q. All right, thank you. Besides what you said
17 about the visit you've done, was any prisoner from
18 Celebici ever brought to the Konjic hospital for
19 medical treatment, and not meaning the 3rd March
21 A. No. Only two patients, only two patients
22 during our first commission proposal, examination that
23 is, those that were more seriously injured, they needed
24 to be treated, that actually a cast was applied and
25 then this person was sent to the 3rd of March School
1 and under other circumstances they weren't treated
3 Q. You said two patients, I believe. Can you
4 remember the names of them?
5 A. One name I can remember, the other I cannot
7 Q. And you don't remember what were the
8 conditions even of the other patient?
9 A. I think that he had a superficial injury on
10 his leg. It was only a question of stitching and then
11 he could continue to be treated in that place, which I
13 Q. You testified that Delalic rang you up again
14 in late July, requesting your help in order to have Dr.
15 Grubac (redacted) released. And you said you went
16 around all the possible authorities, insisting that the
17 Doctors be released. So who were the authorities in
18 charge of the prison at that time?
19 A. I had said that I went to the persons who
20 were in positions of authority, which were certain
21 members in the HVO administration, who were in the
22 military structures as leading persons, commander of
23 the civilian defence, this is who I was referring to
24 and this is what I also did.
25 Q. Were there many persons you got in touch with
1 in order to find a way?
2 A. Yes, I did.
3 Q. Can you list them?
4 A. There were so many of them that I could not
5 name them all.
6 Q. At least the authorities, the institutions,
7 the offices they represented.
8 A. For instance, the chief of civilian
9 protection, his name was Dautbegovic and he was a
10 member of some other bodies too, I guess.
11 Q. I see you cannot list all the people. Were
12 they or some of them authorities in charge of the
13 prison, having the power to release prisoners?
14 A. Unfortunately, the president of the military
15 investigative commission, Mr. Goran Lokas was no longer
16 there, he had already left. I wanted to find someone
17 from that commission because, I guess, they were
18 responsible for it, but I had never found anyone.
19 Q. You testified this morning that all these
20 different people you got in touch with could not give
21 you -- I am quoting -- could not give you the records
22 which could make possible the release of the doctors.
23 Do you agree with me, then, that you went around all
24 possible authorities, but could not find any being
25 really in charge of the prison among all the persons
1 you've been talking with?
2 A. Yes, within that circle, precisely. I could
3 not find anyone who was directly responsible.
4 Q. So then you testified that -- we don't need
5 to repeat what you said in direct -- you testified that
6 it was Delalic himself who signed the release order for
7 the two doctors. Well, do you agree with me that the
8 prison personnel actually released the two doctors
9 based on the release documents signed by Delalic;
10 didn't they?
11 A. He did not sign it, but he actually put a
12 signature down on behalf of someone.
13 Q. I mean, I mean it is a fact that the release
14 order signed that way was actually enforced without any
15 problem; is that correct?
16 A. Of course it was enforced, the doctors were
18 Q. Isn't it true, Doctor, that Delalic ordered
19 Grubac (redacted) to continue taking care of the
20 injured prisoners in Celebici?
21 JUDGE JAN: You're using the word "order".
22 Ask him if it was an order or if it was a request.
23 MR. TURONE: Well, I am talking about a
24 release order. And I am asking, this is my question.
25 Isn't it true that Delalic ordered that Dr. Grubac and
1 (redacted) continued taking care of the injured
2 prisoners in Celebici after their release; is that what
4 A. No, that is not correct. Because I was the
5 one who made agreement with Dr. Petko, for instance,
6 for Dr. Petko to go and take vacation for a while. And
7 with (redacted)to continue to work and provide care
8 for the prisoners at Celebici.
9 Q. All right. But do you agree with me that Mr.
10 Delalic wrote on the release order that must continue
11 to take care of injured prisoners, didn't he?
12 A. That is not correct. That is, I cannot
13 confirm that specifically. When -- I don't know
14 whether it was myself or Mr. Zejnil Delalic, I am not
15 sure of this, but we put down all the information and
16 this was my initiative, that these two physicians would
17 continue to provide medical care for these prisoners.
18 Now, who added language, I don't know if it was myself,
19 whether it was Mr. Delalic or whether it was one of my
20 staff who did this.
21 JUDGE JAN: According to him, the order was
22 typed in his office.
23 MR. TURONE: Yes, and prepared there. So
24 this is why I would like --
25 JUDGE JAN: He was the authority to give such
1 a direction.
2 MR. TURONE:
3 Q. So anyway, may I ask that this document,
4 Exhibit 169, be shown to the witness, please. Do you
5 find this writing, "Will continue to take care of the
6 injured prisoners," do you see it?
7 A. Yes, I do.
8 Q. And do you agree with me that that was
9 written by Mr. Delalic?
10 A. I disagree because the handwriting is very
11 similar to mine, but it is not mine, so I cannot say
12 specifically that Mr. Delalic wrote it. It is possible
13 that I had written it or he did or one of my staff.
14 Because this handwriting here is very similar to my
15 own. In fact, I could now give you a sample of mine.
16 So I am not sure, this is what I am saying, I am not
17 sure who wrote this.
18 Q. But you could please look better. Could you
19 say if this is your handwriting? Think it over
20 quietly, please, and tell us.
21 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: It is too fleeting for
22 one to be able to --
23 MS. RESIDOVIC: Objection, Your Honour, the
24 witness already answered the question.
25 MR. TURONE: All right. I would not press it
2 Q. Dr. Jusufbegovic, is that correct that after
3 they are released, you personally told the two doctors
4 the reasons why they couldn't work in the hospital of
5 Konjic any more?
6 A. The situation was very difficult because from
7 our physicians, that is the medical staff --
8 Q. I understand that. But my question is, did
9 you personally told them the reasons for which they
10 couldn't work any more in the hospital, after they are
12 A. I talked to them and I explained to them
13 those things which they were aware of. Because a
14 mother and a daughter of one of our physicians, a
15 mother and a sister, sorry. A mother and a sister were
16 killed at the Borci and this physician worked there,
17 then I talked to Petko and Relja and they were aware of
18 this. And I said it would be awkward for me and for
19 both of you if you continue to work there. And this
20 doctor whose mother and sister were killed, never
21 changed his attitude towards patients after that.
22 There was also a member of the medical staff whose
23 cousin was killed, who was a member of the HVO, and
24 they continued to work there. So I had to take a
25 position so that I would not put myself or these two
1 doctors into an awkward position.
2 Q. That's enough for me, Doctor. Did Grubac or
3 (redacted) ever provide you with a list of sick prisoners
4 any time when they were taking care of sick prisoners?
5 A. They did not.
6 Q. Did any of them ever request hospital
7 treatment for any prisoners, during the time they were
8 taking care of prisoners as free persons already, or
9 before that time?
10 A. No, neither before nor after.
11 Q. Did any of them ever mention to you abuses or
12 mistreatment of prisoners in Celebici?
13 A. No.
14 Q. Is it your testimony that from May to
15 December, '92, you heard no report, no information
16 whatsoever about possible mistreatment of detainees in
18 A. Yes, it is my statement that I never received
19 any kind of warning or notice, either in writing or
21 Q. Did you ever see, on television, Mr. Delalic
22 interviewed on television about either reports or
23 rumours of mistreatment in Celebici?
24 A. No.
25 Q. You also said, certainly in prior statements,
1 I don't know whether today as well, that Mr. Delalic
2 did not, as far as you knew, have a position of
3 superiority regarding the Celebici prison; do you
4 confirm that?
5 A. He had no authority over anyone, Mr. Delalic
6 did, including the prison.
7 Q. So if you're so sure about that, I presume
8 that you are in a position to know who did have
9 superior authority over the prison; is that correct or
11 A. I guess it would have been the MUP. I don't
12 know. It was not my area of expertise, but I assume it
13 was the MUP.
14 Q. Then we have no other information about this
15 issue. You don't know then to who the camp commander
16 reported, et cetera; is that correct? .
17 A. I don't know.
18 Q. You said something en person about the
19 appointment of Mr. Delalic as commander of TG-1. Was
20 there any sanitary department created within Tactical
21 Group 1?
22 JUDGE JAN: What department?
23 MR. TURONE:
24 Q. Did a sanitary department exist within,
25 inside the organisation of Tactical Group 1, as far as
1 you know?
2 A. I think there was none.
3 Q. Thank you. Was blood ever taken from
4 prisoners either in Celebici or Musala?
5 A. Who are you referring to, taken from whom?
6 Q. Blood for transfusions?
7 A. We do not have a blood unit. We received all
8 our supplies through the Red Cross and other
9 institutions. We never had that service ourselves.
10 Q. Do you know a man by the name of Emir
12 A. Yes, I do.
13 Q. Can you tell us who is this person?
14 A. Emir Kovacic is Emir Kovacic. For a while, he
15 worked as a gate keeper at our organisation, at our
16 institution there.
17 Q. Do you mean the health centre?
18 A. Yes, of the health centre or the hospital.
19 Q. Let me go on to another issue,
20 Dr. Jusufbegovic. Do you agree with me that you had a
21 meeting with Delalic and other people on Mount Zvekoca
22 (phoen) on 10 or 11 July '92, during Operation Borci?
23 A. I did not have a meeting with Mr. Delalic. I
24 had a task. What I was concerned with was to prevent
25 any kind of epidemic. So whenever I had any free time,
1 I would go and visit the front-lines. Our disease
2 control person who was a woman of Serb descent had
3 left, so I was in charge of disease prevention. So
4 what I did was I visited all lines that we had because
5 we were especially concerned of the outbreak of
6 haemorrhagic fever. So I went to Cerovac, Pirkic and
7 other commanders, Ajanovic, and I was telling them what
8 steps they should take because sometimes their water
9 supplies would be there, stationary, for several days,
10 so I told them what tablets to put in. We wanted to
11 prevent this haemorrhagic fever disease from breaking
12 out which was passed through rodents. And at Vranske
13 Stijene, I remember seeing Mr. Delalic. He was there
14 the entire month of July. This was not a prearranged
15 meeting. This was just during one of my regular visits
17 Q. You would agree with me that on 14 July, '94,
18 you gave an informative interview about that meeting,
19 that situation, your visit to Vranske Stijene and Mount
20 Zvekoca to members of the Mostar Security Service?
21 A. No. Nobody ever talked to me, nor did I give
22 any statement either official or unofficial to anyone
23 from Mostar or anyone from Konjic.
24 Q. I can give you the name of these two members,
25 Nedzad Avdic and/or Nenad Pribisic.
1 A. I hear these names for the first time. I
2 would really like to see this document, if I may.
3 MR. TURONE: I beg your pardon. Just one
4 moment, Your Honours. Thank you, Your Honour. My
5 cross-examination is finished.
6 Thank you very much, Dr. Jusufbegovic.
7 THE WITNESS: Thank you.
8 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Any re-examination on
9 your part?
10 MS. RESIDOVIC: Just very briefly.
11 Re-examined by Ms. Residovic
12 Q. Doctor, could you please remember, regarding
13 the negotiations which you said as a local man from
14 Repovci you conducted with your counterparts in
15 Bradina, can you recall what month it was? Was it
16 before the fighting in Bradina?
17 A. Yes, this was much, much before the fighting
18 in Bradina and maybe even on the eve of the fighting
19 because there were several meetings that were held. I
20 think that they were in February and in March.
21 Q. Doctor, did you also have similar discussions
22 with your neighbours in Bradina in the month of May?
23 A. Yes, this was also in May, but I said that we
24 started these discussions much earlier. It first
25 regarded the building of a road, and only later when
1 these neighbourly relations had deteriorated, these
2 became the topics. So there were several official and
3 then several unofficial meetings, but I was part of
4 these more unofficial meetings, but the authorities
5 also held official meetings.
6 Q. Thank you, Doctor. You also said that
7 Mr. Delalic at some period of time also tried to ease
8 the tension. Can you tell me where these Manigoda
10 A. The Manigoda are from the village of
11 Ostrozac, and they live in the village by the same name
12 because they are a large family and they are very
13 honourable, very honourable people.
14 Q. So this was Ostrozac. Can you tell me where
15 Mr. Zejnil Delalic was born?
16 A. Mr. Zejnil Delalic was born in Ostrozac.
17 Q. So are these Manigodas neighbours of
18 Mr. Delalic?
19 A. Yes.
20 MS. RESIDOVIC: Thank you, Doctor. I have no
21 further questions.
22 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: This concludes the
23 examination of this witness. Thank you very much,
24 Dr. Jusufbegovic. You've been quite helpful and thank
25 you for your assistance. You are discharged now.
1 (The witness withdrew)
2 MS. RESIDOVIC: Your Honours, I have a
3 request. I would like to call the next witness after
4 the break and I would now like to submit the shortened
5 list which we had promised earlier. Maybe we can
6 extend the break for these five, six additional minutes
7 because we would like to use this time to submit the
8 list to you, if that is all right with you.
9 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Yes, I think we'll take
10 a break now and resume at 4.30. But you shall keep to
11 the warning that you don't duplicate the witnesses
12 you've been calling because, as far as everyone is
13 concerned, perhaps if you ask some the conditions in
14 Celebici, that might make a difference, and then we
15 know where we go from there. Because you have quite a
16 number on the role and responsibility except, of
17 course, you still have one or two, but definitely we'll
18 hear what you -- the next witness you are trying to
19 call. If it is relevant in light of what has already
20 been done, then we'll allow it.
21 MS. RESIDOVIC: Thank you.
22 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: The Trial Chamber will
23 rise and assemble at 4.30.
24 --- Recess taken at 3.56 p.m.
25 --- On resuming at 4.35 p.m.
1 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Yes, Ms. Residovic, I
2 think we're still -- you are still on, I think we're
3 still expecting you to call your next witness. Who are
4 you presenting as your next witness?
5 MS. RESIDOVIC: The name is Dzevad Pasic.
6 And, if you recall, there was a videotape from Vranske
7 Stijene and the witnesses, the chief of the artillery,
8 member of the municipal staff and the TO. Can I please
9 call in the witness now?
10 (The witness entered court)
11 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Kindly swear the
13 THE WITNESS: I solemnly declare to speak the
14 truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth.
15 MS. RESIDOVIC:
16 Q. Mr. Pasic, could you please introduce
17 yourself to the court by stating your full name and sir
19 A. My name is Dzevad Pasic.
20 Q. Mr. Pasic, before we -- I start examining
21 you, I would like to advise you of a technical matter.
22 You and I speak the same language and it would be quite
23 normal for you to answer my questions immediately.
24 However, since our conversation must be translated,
25 please wait until you hear the end of the translation
1 in your earphones and then respond to my questions and,
2 therefore, in this way, everyone in the court, the
3 judges, and everyone else will be able to follow. Did
4 you understand this?
5 A. Yes, I did.
6 Q. Mr. Pasic, can you tell us where and when you
7 were born?
8 A. I was born in Jablanica, 28th of August,
10 Q. What is your nationality and citizenship?
11 A. I am a Bosnian and Herzegovinian, that is a
12 Muslim Bosniak.
13 Q. Mr. Pasic, can you tell us something about
14 your education, what schools have you completed and
16 A. Well, I finished my elementary school in
17 Konjic, in Sarajevo. My secondary transportation
18 school. And in the former JNA, I finished the school
19 of reserve offices in Zadar.
20 Q. What is your present occupation, Mr. Pasic?
21 A. I am an officer of the army of the
23 Q. Mr. Pasic, can you tell this court where and
24 what sort of positions did you occupy in April of 1992
25 when the war started in Bosnia Herzegovina?
1 A. Immediately prior to the outbreak of the war,
2 I had a private company, a private business. I dealt
3 in commercial activity. And when the war actually
4 broke out, I was in the municipal staff in Konjic. I
5 was a head -- chief of the artillery, that was my first
6 duty, and I stayed in that post practically the whole
7 of 1992.
8 Q. Mr. Pasic, were you ever at some point in
9 time a member of the joint command of the Territorial
10 Defence and the HVO?
11 A. Yes, of course. When the joint command was
12 formed in the month of May, I became, once again, head
13 -- chief of the artillery on behalf of the Territorial
14 Defence. This happened on May 18th.
15 Q. Mr. Pasic, as a member of the TO, did you
16 take part in the Oranj Operation?
17 A. Yes, I did.
18 Q. In which parts of the municipality did this
19 military operation take place?
20 A. It was along, upstream the Neretva River
21 (phoen) and south-east of a town towards the positions
22 of the Chetniks. That is where they were stationed and
23 from where they were shelling our town.
24 Q. What is your -- what was your duty in the
25 course of the Oranj Operation?
1 A. In the course of the Oranj Operation, my duty
2 was to prepare and conduct combat activity, along with
3 the artillery with which we disposed at the time.
4 Q. Who at the time commanded the, in command --
5 who was in command of the artillery during that
6 military operation?
7 A. I commanded the -- the artillery during the
8 military operation in question. I was in charge of the
9 shooting activities. Of course, I was subordinated to
10 my commanders.
11 Q. And who was your superior commander, the
12 commander of the Operation Oganj?
13 A. It was Esad Ramic and after him Cerovac.
14 Q. Mr. Pasic, do you know whether Mr. Zejnil
15 Delalic had taken part in the Oranj Operation?
16 A. As far as I know, he took part in the Oranj
17 Operation. I think he was in Vranske Stijene, in one
18 of our intermediary stations. That means the radio
19 relay actually, station, which was used to convey
20 information because our operation covered a large
21 area. So, in that operation, he, he distributed,
22 actually issued orders and occasionally he was also
23 tasked with logistic matters in the course of that
25 Q. You have, Mr. Pasic, just said that this was
1 a relay station due to the need for communication.
2 Tell us, since, perhaps, the Chamber is not aware of
3 this fully, although they have seen films of the area,
4 can you tell us something about the geography of that
6 JUDGE JAN: You already had that information
7 from the -- already in this area, that's what he said.
8 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: And Chamber might --
9 MS. RESIDOVIC: I have no translation, Your
11 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Perhaps, I am saying it
12 might be suggested that the Trial Chamber by its --
13 have a visit of the "locals" to familiarise ourselves
14 with the mountainous nature of the area.
15 JUDGE JAN: Colonel Cerovac has already told
16 us about the nature of the town there.
17 MS. RESIDOVIC: Since the person witnessed
18 the event and since the Prosecutor showed his position
19 on the film, I thought it would be good to hear him,
20 but since it is not a disputed issue, I don't have to
21 repeat the question.
22 Q. Mr. Pasic, can you tell me how far it was the
23 place where Mr. Delalic was located, from the positions
24 of the artillery?
25 A. I can say this approximately, that is between
1 8 and 10 kilometres, the front line of the artillery
2 and the relay station in Vranske Stijene.
3 Q. Mr. Pasic, as head of the artillery, during
4 the month of this operation, could Mr. Delalic issue
5 you orders during that period of time?
6 A. No, under no circumstance.
7 Q. Mr. Pasic, at any point of time during that
8 operation, did Mr. Delalic, in respect of you, was he a
9 superior authority?
10 A. No.
11 Q. Since you were on the front lines, do you
12 know whether -- during that time in Konjic, whether
13 there existed the function of a regional commander, did
14 that post exist?
15 A. As far as I know, it didn't.
16 Q. During the period from the beginning of the
17 war to the forming of the fourth corps, did such a
18 function exist in the municipality of Konjic?
19 A. No.
20 Q. Since you were a member of the municipal
21 staff, from your own personal experience, do you know
22 if at any time Mr. Delalic was a member or commander of
23 the municipal staff?
24 A. No.
25 JUDGE JAN: You're just repeating the same
1 question. Hadzihuseinovic has already told us and
2 nobody could be more informative on the subject than
4 MS. RESIDOVIC: Your Honour, the members of
5 the staff and the joint command, they know who their
6 colleagues were.
7 JUDGE JAN: You got the information right
8 from the head of the institution. Why duplicate the
9 same evidence?
10 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: This is likely what all
11 others would come to say because it still comes to the
12 same thing. At least when you are organising your
13 defence you don't understand, we pointed out quite
14 clearly yesterday the management of the trial rests
15 with the Trial Chamber. We tell you areas which we
16 think are irrelevant and repetitious, and we do not
17 think it is necessary to insist that those
18 irrelevancies should be accepted.
19 MS. RESIDOVIC: I fully agree with you. You
20 can always put a stop to any of my questions. I shall
21 not go into the jurisdiction of the court.
22 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Our problem is that it
23 will finally cost the administration a lot of money,
24 because when you go about inviting witnesses and the
25 registry pays for them and they come and repeat what
1 others have said, it just doesn't make sense. Why
2 should the administration pay so much for irrelevancies
3 which will not be taken into account? That is why one
4 is suggesting to you to look afresh and see the
6 As I said, since you found it difficult to
7 know the real areas which are truly relevant for your
8 case, the Trial Chamber will give you your list of
9 witnesses according to what you have given which are
10 relevant for your Defence. Carry on, at least with
11 this witness. At the end of the day, we'll know what
12 to do.
13 MS. RESIDOVIC: I shall continue. There are
14 Prosecution exhibits with regard to the role of Delalic
15 during the Oganj Operation. We are just bringing
16 witnesses to speak to his role in that operation. He
17 said that no regional commander existed, so I would
18 like to just show you some facts to assess them.
19 JUDGE JAN: He said there were no district
20 commands; there were no regional commands. Therefore,
21 the TO of Konjic was placed directly under the supreme
22 command because there was no district commands, no
23 regional commands. The whole thing was in the process
24 of being built up, but at that time there were no
25 district commands; there were no regional commands.
1 The supreme command in Sarajevo was directly giving the
2 orders to the municipal TO. We already have evidence
3 on that --
4 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.
5 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Because he's the
6 Prosecution witness you don't rely on his evidence, but
7 we do.
8 JUDGE JAN: You can rely on the Prosecution's
9 own evidence in this regard.
10 MS. RESIDOVIC: Well, I will rely on them
11 very much, and that is what we stated in our request.
12 But since the level of suspicion is such, we must
13 invite our witnesses to dissipate such suspicions, and
14 it is for that purpose that we have invited these
16 JUDGE JAN: You should not rely upon the
17 suspicion of the Prosecution. You have to satisfy us.
18 If there is evidence already, why repeat it?
19 Particularly when it comes from the witnesses produced
20 by the Prosecution.
21 MS. RESIDOVIC: I have not heard what you
22 have just said. I hadn't any translation.
23 JUDGE JAN: What I said was that if the
24 Prosecution witnesses have said something on which you
25 can rely, do that because that is -- how can the
1 Prosecution disown its own witnesses or their
2 testimony? But we have on this command structure, you
3 didn't have any -- this gentleman told us there were no
4 regional or district commands at that time. Therefore,
5 the supreme command in Sarajevo directly gave orders to
6 the municipal TO in Konjic. Why repeat that evidence?
7 You can rely upon what their own witnesses said.
8 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: I will be surprised if
9 any witness would say something different from Pasalic
10 or Deviet (phoen). I'm sure they are stating the
11 correct information.
12 MS. RESIDOVIC: Glad to hear this, Your
13 Honours, and I suppose people who were there can
14 confirm the truth of this, but my problem has always
15 been that other evidence has been admitted by the court
16 not only General Pasalic's, and he speaks in a
17 different manner. So as to support the statements of
18 General Pasalic, we have called witnesses. So evidence
19 such as for you to view that there must be prima facie,
20 and we hope that you will have a better understanding
21 when you hear our witnesses.
22 But after our last witness, you could see
23 that I don't want to broaden the issue. It is only to
24 focus on the facts that still cause some suspicion.
25 That is why I abided by the suggestions given to us by
1 Your Honours during yesterday's conference, and I shall
2 continue along those lines.
3 JUDGE JAN: We said yesterday no duplication,
4 triplication of the evidence, and you don't need to
5 support the evidence of the Prosecution's own witness,
6 particularly when he was the commander of the fourth
7 corps, a member, and he was already in the fighting in
8 Mostar during the earlier months. We should know what
9 the structure of the army was during the relevant
11 MS. RESIDOVIC: Thank you.
12 Q. Mr. Pasic, since we have clarified your role
13 in the Oganj Operation, and I think that the facts have
14 been clarified sufficiently, I'm not going to ask you
15 any more questions about that operation and about the
16 role of Zejnil Delalic in it.
17 However, I'm going to ask you whether you
18 know as a member of the joint command who at that time
19 was the head of the anti-aircraft defence in the joint
20 command and in the TO?
21 A. Yes, I know. It was Enver Redzepovic.
22 Q. Do you know whether at any point after he
23 became the head of the anti-aircraft defence
24 Mr. Redzepovic was either relieved of his duty or
25 changed his position?
1 A. As far as I know, he did not.
2 Q. Mr. Pasic, can you tell me whether you know
3 if Zejnil Delalic at any period of time in 1992,
4 according to the information that you have, at the time
5 when he had no command role whatsoever was still
6 engaged in assisting the struggle with his own personal
8 A. Yes, I know that what is the most
9 characteristic is that with his own personal means, he
10 bought a 130-millimetre gun, and I was present there at
11 the event when he gave the money to a man whose
12 nickname was Srna.
13 Q. Since you were a soldier then and you're
14 still a soldier now, this assistance which Mr. Delalic
15 provided to the defence forces, was it a significant
16 kind of help for the defence forces?
17 A. At that time, any assistance was extremely
18 useful to us, so that was very useful to us as well.
19 JUDGE JAN: Is it the same gun that the TO
20 refused to give to Delalic when he asked for it?
21 MS. RESIDOVIC:
22 Q. Do you personally know with respect to this
23 gun, and the court already has information that this
24 gun was nicknamed Sultan, so was there any problem with
25 the HVO regarding this gun?
1 A. When this gun arrived on that very day and I
2 was present when this money was counted, members of the
3 HVO took away the spare parts and tools, so the sights,
4 there were the cleaning equipment and other things
5 which were necessary for the gun to function. So, they
6 simply took it off the truck and took it somewhere
7 away. I did not see this, but a lot of people came to
8 see this gun, both military and civilians, but I was
9 not there. I know that after that there were certain
10 problems arose.
11 Q. Did the security body of the municipal staff
12 take some measures against certain members of the HVO?
13 A. Of course. The security authorities forbid
14 them to approach our warehouses because they thought
15 that if they had taken this away we couldn't use that
17 Q. Very well, Mr. Pasic, we will move on to
18 another area. Do you whether Mr. Zejnil Delalic at,
19 some time in 1992, was appointed a commander?
20 A. Yes. After the Oganj Operation, so it was in
21 later July or early August, I heard that he was
22 appointed to the position of the commander of Tactical
23 Group 1. This is what I have heard.
24 Q. Was this gun called Sultan, part of the
25 artillery weapons which you commanded over?
1 A. Yes. It became a weapon of the municipal
2 staff. I was commander of the joint, that is, mixed
3 artillery division, but it belonged to the municipal
5 Q. Mr. Pasic, after the request to transfer this
6 gun to the Tactical Group, a conflict broke out with
7 the municipal staff. Can you tell me whether you know
8 from your personal experience that you yourself and the
9 municipal staff did not want to turn this gun over to
10 Tactical Group 1?
11 A. Yes, there were problems over this.
12 Personally as a commander, I had a problem because --
13 JUDGE JAN: Ultimately, the dispute was
14 referred to the supreme commander and he said that he
15 directed that the gun should be given to TG-1. We
16 already have evidence on that. You can ask him whether
17 when all formations were placed at the disposal of
18 TG-1, was his unit also placed under this command? You
19 can ask him that.
20 MS. RESIDOVIC: Yes.
21 Q. You have understood His Honour's comment. Is
22 it true that you turned this gun over after Commander
23 Sefer Halilovic ordered it be turned over; is that
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. Can you tell me even though, Mr. Pasic, you
2 turned this gun over, was your combined artillery
3 division subordinate to Mr. Zejnil Delalic as commander
4 of Tactical Group 1, that is, to the command of
5 Tactical Group 1?
6 A. No. My division was subordinate to the
7 municipal staff of the Konjic defence forces.
8 Q. Mr. Pasic, did you personally as a soldier
9 and member of the Territorial Defence of Konjic at any
10 time subordinate to Mr. Zejnil Delalic as commander of
11 Tactical Group 1?
12 A. No.
13 Q. Mr. Pasic, were you at any other time under
14 any other commander subordinate to the commander of
15 Tactical Group 1?
16 A. No.
17 Q. Mr. Pasic, do you know that a number of
18 soldiers of the Gijret unit were subordinate to the
19 Tactical Group 1 in the month of June?
20 A. Yes, I do know that. I think this was in the
21 month of June during the first attempt at lifting the
22 siege of Sarajevo.
23 Q. After the first attempt at lifting the siege
24 was over, do you know under whose command the soldiers
25 who came back from Konjic were placed?
1 A. The soldiers were going back to the original
2 units from which they came and they were sent to other
3 tasks. That included the Tactical Group.
4 Q. Mr. Pasic, do you know that after the combat
5 operations at Bradina, a certain number of persons who
6 took part in the fighting were detained and taken to
7 the Celebici barracks?
8 A. Yes, I have heard about that.
9 Q. Can you tell me whether any person whom you
10 knew was detained and taken to the Celebici barracks?
11 A. Yes. I knew several persons who apparently
12 were in Celebici. Members of their families came to me
13 asking me to try to find out what happened to them; for
14 instance, Ranko Glogovac was one of them.
15 Q. Mr. Pasic, did you do something at that time?
16 A. I did what I could. I thought that my duty
17 as a human being was to try to help because I thought
18 that not all people were either armed or Chetniks, and
19 I specifically helped Ranko. I grew up with Goran
20 Lokas and I asked him to have him released. Several
21 days later, I saw that he had come home.
22 Q. Can you remember when this was?
23 A. This was approximately late May or early
25 Q. Mr. Pasic, can you please tell me whether in
1 your artillery division combined, as you said it was
2 called, whether Mladen Zebic was also there?
3 A. No. He was in the joint staff so he was my
4 deputy, in fact.
5 Q. Can you tell me, was he in any way connected
6 to the theft of the spare parts and tools for the
8 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: These questions, what
9 are they about? What are these questions intended to
11 MS. RESIDOVIC: Certain documents presented
12 here were actually propaganda against Zejnil, and I'm
13 laying the foundation for showing that they were
14 propaganda. Since this witness can elucidate some
15 aspects of it, I wanted him to talk to some of the
16 elements which he can speak to, but if you believe that
17 this issue has been sufficiently clarified, the witness
18 need not answer.
19 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Yes, and towards the
20 case of his defence. That's all we are interested in.
21 MS. RESIDOVIC: I believe that the
22 Prosecution may have also relied on certain documents
23 which were part of this smearing campaign. We would
24 like to show in defence of our client that he was
25 framed on those issues.
1 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: (Microphone not on)
2 MS. RESIDOVIC: Thank you.
3 Q. Mr. Pasic, I would also like to ask you
4 whether you know, given the position that you occupied,
5 whether Mr. Zejnil Delalic, either as coordinator or
6 commander of Tactical Group 1, had any authority over
7 the Celebici barracks and prison?
8 A. From what I know, he had no authority. It
9 would have been impossible for him to have had any.
10 Q. Mr. Pasic, on the basis of your personal
11 knowledge, do you know whether any guard at the
12 Celebici barracks was a member of Tactical Group 1,
13 whether during the tenure of Mr. Polutak or Mr.
15 A. I really could not speak to that.
16 MS. RESIDOVIC: Very well, Mr. Pasic, this
17 concludes my questions.
18 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Any cross-examination of
19 this witness?
20 MR. OLUJIC: Your Honours, at this point,
21 no. However, with your kind permission, maybe after
22 reviewing all the relevant documents, we may have a
23 couple of questions on Monday of this witness.
24 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: After he has been
25 charged, is it? After he has been discharged as a
1 witness? Any cross-examination of him?
2 MR. KARABDIC: Defence of Hazim Delic has no
3 questions in cross-examination of this witness.
4 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: The prosecution any
6 MS. McMURREY: Excuse me, Your Honour, the
7 defence of Esad Landzo has no questions of this witness
9 MR. NIEMANN: Mr. Pasic, you say some of the
10 people detained in Bradina were taken to the Celebici
11 barracks, who detained them?
12 JUDGE JAN: First ask him who arrested them.
13 MR. NIEMANN: Arrest or detained.
14 Q. Who arrested them? Do you know who arrested
16 A. I did not say that these persons were
17 detained in Bradina.
18 Q. No, neither did I. I'm sorry, I think
19 there's been a confusion. You mentioned that people
20 who -- I think you used the word detained in Bradina
21 were sent to Celebici, but people who were arrested in
22 Bradina, if the word "arrested" is correct, they were
23 taken to Celebici, who arrested them?
24 A. I was talking about Ranko Glogovac. He was
25 at Donje Selo that is where he was found. And that is
1 where he was arrested and taken to Celebici. And I
2 believe that it was the MUP who took him there.
3 Q. And they arrested him and took him there?
4 A. That is correct.
5 Q. Do you know why Mr. Delalic was appointed
6 commander of Tactical Group 1? Do you know why?
7 A. No.
8 Q. Now you mentioned that you're on the joint
9 command and you're on that command with a number of
10 other people. I am just interested, if I have the
11 people that correct -- if I have the correct list of
12 people who are on the joint command. So I'll mention
13 the names and you might tell me if you would be so
14 kind. Was the first commander Enver Redzepovic?
15 A. Yes, but he was not my first commander.
16 Q. No, I'll just go through the list of the
17 first joint command of the TO and HVO. And then, was
18 there Dinko Zebic?
19 A. Dinko Zebic was the chief of staff at the
20 joint command.
21 Q. And Ivan Asanovic was deputy commander, I
23 A. No, not as far as I know.
24 Q. Mihat Cerovac?
25 A. Mihat Cerovac?
1 Q. Yes.
2 JUDGE JAN: Say, yes or no.
3 Q. And Jasmin Guska?
4 A. Yes, no, for Jasmin Guska.
5 MS. RESIDOVIC: I do not understand this line
6 of questioning. My objection is --
7 JUDGE JAN: He wants to find out whether
8 those persons were there or not. He's got a list I
9 think prepared by -- he just wants to check up with
10 that list.
11 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Those who are member of
12 the joint command, who have been heard.
13 MS. RESIDOVIC: Yes, but this is not the
14 list -- he's giving some names that were -- in other
15 words, we were not provided such a list, which would
16 have been his obligation.
17 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: It depends on him to
18 admit or reject.
19 MR. NIEMANN: I can assure, Your Honours, I
20 won't give false names.
21 Q. Rusmir Hadzihuseinovic?
22 A. No.
23 Q. Then there was a second commander appointed
24 to the joint command and that was Esad Ramic?
25 A. Could you repeat this last one, please?
1 Q. Certainly. After Enver Redzepovic was
2 appointed, the next commander to be appointed was Esad
4 A. I believe so, yes.
5 Q. And under Esad Ramic, it was when he was the
6 commander of the joint command, that was the time that
7 you were on the joint command, is that right?
8 A. Not exactly. If you want me to explain, I
9 can do that.
10 Q. If you can give me a yes or no answer, it
11 would be much easier, and then we can finish today.
12 A. My first commander in actual fact was Omer
14 Q. And I am speaking specifically of the joint
15 command. I am not talking about the TO. I am talking
16 about the joint command -- the commander of the joint
18 A. Yes, Omer Boric.
19 Q. Okay, fine. Now, when you were on the joint
20 command, Zejnil Delalic and Rusmir Hadzihuseinovic was
21 also on the joint command, weren't they?
22 MS. RESIDOVIC: The witness answered this
23 question already.
24 MR. NIEMANN: The witness didn't, Your
1 THE WITNESS: A number of them were members
2 of the joint command.
3 Q. In the statement that you gave to Madam
4 Residovic --
5 JUDGE JAN: Just a minute, what was the
6 answer he gave?
7 MR. NIEMANN: No, he said no.
8 JUDGE JAN: A number of members, a number of
9 them were members of the joint command.
10 MR. NIEMANN: I'm sorry, Your Honour, I
11 thought he was denying it. Neither of the members.
12 JUDGE JAN: Please check up on the
14 MR. NIEMANN: Now in the statement that you
15 gave --
16 MS. RESIDOVIC: Your Honour, the witness
17 should be allowed to state unequivocally, there's your
18 comment, but he has not -- then in the transcript, it
19 is not clear whether operation -- Rusmir
20 Hadzihuseinovic were members of the joint command or
22 JUDGE JAN: Please speak a little loudly, so
23 that the interpreters can know what you're saying.
24 MR. NIEMANN:
25 Q. Was Rusmir Hadzihuseinovic and Zejnil
1 Delalic, a member of the joint command when you were a
3 A. No.
4 Q. Now, in your statement that you gave to Ms.
5 Residovic, you mentioned a name of Ivan Asanovic, would
6 you like to look at your statement?
7 A. It's not necessary.
8 Q. If you do, please don't hesitate to ask.
9 Now, it's true, isn't it, that in that you refer to
10 Ivan Asanovic and you said that he had the position of
11 being president of the HVO, do you remember saying
13 A. Yes, yes, I do remember.
14 Q. President of the HVO's political body, which
15 corresponds with the war presidency in our army?
16 A. To the war presidency in our army, I don't
17 understand, how do you mean the war presidency in our
19 Q. I am just quoting from an English translation
20 from what I think it is you've said and I was going to
21 ask you what you meant by that.
22 MS. RESIDOVIC: Can we look at the statement
23 in Bosnian, please.
24 MR. NIEMANN: It is the statement of the
25 defence, Your Honour. I have a copy here of the
1 statement. I just noticed that the photocopy is very
2 poor, so you may not be able to see it. But, if you
3 can't, we'll move on. Thank you, could you give that
4 to... Now, while we're waiting for that to be
5 distributed, it's true, is it not, that there were
6 ongoing problems between the HVO and the TO during the
7 whole course of 1992?
8 A. There were no problems at the very
9 beginning. There were no significant problems. We
10 functioned well together up until the Oranj Operation.
11 Q. So, is it your evidence that after the Oranj
12 Operation and, in particular, after the seizing of the
13 equipment relating to the, to the 130 millimetre gun,
14 that's when relations began the deteriorate rapidly?
15 A. Yes, immediately after that. The
16 relationships between myself and my deputy sort of
17 cooled off.
18 MS. RESIDOVIC: Your Honours, it is obvious
19 that the sentence which had just been quoted was
20 mistranslated, it's the last paragraph on page 2. As
21 far as Ivan Asanovic is concerned, I know that he was
22 president of the HVO, that is their political body,
23 which would correspond to our war presidency.
24 JUDGE JAN: There's no reference to the joint
25 staff. It is no reference to the joint staff. It's
1 the position Asanovic. He may also be in the joint
2 command, but you are talking about he was the president
3 of a political party, which corresponds to the position
4 of the war presidency. It is not a reference to the
5 joint staff.
6 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Which is equivalent to
7 the political body. I see no problem.
8 MS. RESIDOVIC: Only the Prosecutor suggested
9 that the war presidency somehow related to the army,
10 which I say was a mistranslation really.
11 MR. NIEMANN: Perhaps the witness might be
12 shown the statement.
13 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Well, he couldn't be the
14 only one who would translate the war presidency as
15 equivalent to the head of the army. You have too many
16 witnesses indicating, clearly, that the war presidency
17 is a civilian organisation.
18 MR. NIEMANN: That's not -- it is nothing to
19 do with my line of questioning, though, Your Honour.
20 My line of questioning relates to the fact that the
21 army had a political master.
22 JUDGE JAN: Yes.
23 MR. NIEMANN: And the political master of the
24 army -- and the political master of the army, in the
25 case of the HVO, was a civil -- civilian person who was
1 president of the HVO and that civilian political master
2 corresponded, according to what I can read here, to the
3 president of the war presidency with respect to the --
4 JUDGE JAN: He was speaking within the
5 context of his own constitutional structure.
6 MR. NIEMANN: That's what he says here Your
8 JUDGE JAN: I don't think he would say that.
9 MR. NIEMANN: It appears very clearly from
10 the English translation.
11 MR. O'SULLIVAN: I think, Your Honours, if I
12 can be of some assistance, this is an OTP translation
13 and, in my submission, it's a mistranslation.
14 MR. NIEMANN: That's why I was going to put
15 the statement to the witness.
16 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Yes, put it to him.
17 JUDGE JAN: You must have a better version of
18 the statement because he provided to the Prosecution.
19 You must be having a clearer version of this statement.
20 MS. RESIDOVIC: This is the original
21 statement and we submitted it to the prosecution, but
22 all in Bosnian, so what I say here is that the
23 translation that was then made was mistranslation.
24 MR. NIEMANN: Witness, would you endeavour to
25 read, if you can, the paragraph that starts, "As for
1 Ivan Asanovic". Can read that paragraph for me. It's
2 towards the very end. In fact, in the English version,
3 it's the fourth to last paragraph of the whole
4 statement. I believe it's on the last page. I think
5 it's the bottom of the...
6 A. There it is.
7 MS. RESIDOVIC: It's illegible.
8 MR. NIEMANN: I am grateful.
9 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Let him have your copy.
10 JUDGE JAN: This is what I was requesting,
11 that you can give him that version, which is probably a
12 clearer one.
13 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Give it to him. You
14 don't have to...
15 MR. NIEMANN: Go to the same place in the
16 statement, would you for me please, four paragraphs
17 towards the end and just read out the statement, which
18 I think should start, "As for Ivan Asanovic"?
19 A. This is what it is says. "As far as Ivan
20 Asanovic is concerned, I know that he was the president
21 of the HVO, that is their political body which would
22 correspond to our war presidency". I did not -- had
23 any contacts with him, so his activities are not known
24 to me.
25 Q. Yes, fair enough. Now, when you say "war
1 presidency", is the words "in our army" appear there,
2 or do they not appear there? In your statement, you
3 read it so fast, I am just asking you, do the words
4 "after war presidency in our army" appear?
5 MS. RESIDOVIC: Your Honours --
6 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: In our army, war
7 presidency, in our army, are those words in the
8 original text?
9 THE WITNESS: No, there are no such words.
10 MR. NIEMANN: No further questions.
11 MS. RESIDOVIC: Can I please have this copy
12 back, it is my personal copy. If necessary, I can
13 provide -- on the other hand, nobody is offering it.
14 We just read a paragraph from it. Thank you.
15 THE REGISTRAR: I'm sorry, this copy has been
16 marked and this copy has been shown to the witness, so
17 I should keep it.
18 JUDGE JAN: Give a clean copy --
19 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Who said for you to keep
21 THE REGISTRAR: This copy has not been
23 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Forget it.
24 THE REGISTRAR: If Your Honour will permit
25 me --
1 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Return it.
2 THE REGISTRAR: Okay, thank you.
3 JUDGE JAN: Any re-examination?
4 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Any re-examination of
5 this witness?
6 Re-examined by Ms. Residovic:
7 Q. Mr. Pasic, could you please tell me, who was
8 the first commander of the Territorial Defence
9 headquarters of Konjic after April 17th?
10 A. After 17 April, the commander was Omer Boric.
11 Q. The 17th of April?
12 A. No. After the 17th of April, Esad Ramic, and
13 after the 18th of May, Omer Boric.
14 Q. Are you absolutely sure of these facts or can
15 you not speak to these facts with full precision?
16 A. Maybe I could not really say exactly because
17 they changed very frequently.
18 Q. But could you tell me who the commander was
19 when you became a member of the joint command?
20 A. Omer Boric.
21 Q. And you are absolutely sure of that?
22 A. Yes.
23 MS. RESIDOVIC: Thank you. I have no further
25 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: I think this is all for
1 this witness. You are discharged. Thank you very much
2 for your assistance to the Trial Chamber.
3 (The witness withdrew)
4 THE WITNESS: Thank you, Your Honours.
5 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: The Trial Chamber will
6 now rise and reassemble on Monday at ten a.m.
7 --- Whereupon hearing adjourned at 5.40 p.m.
8 to be reconvened on Monday, the 25th day of
9 May, 1998 at 10.00 a.m.