1 --- Friday, 5 June, 1998
2 --- On resuming at 10.00 a.m.
3 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Good morning, ladies and
4 gentlemen. May we have the appearances, please.
5 MR. NIEMANN: Your Honours, please, my name
6 is Niemann, and I appear with my colleagues,
7 Ms. McMurrey, Mr. Turone, and Mr. Huber for the
8 Prosecution, Your Honours.
9 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Appearances for the
11 MS. RESIDOVIC: Good morning, Your Honours.
12 I am Edina Residovic, Defence Counsel for Mr. Zejnil
13 Delalic, along with my colleague, Eugene O'Sullivan,
14 professor from Canada. Thank you.
15 MR. OLUJIC: Good morning, Your Honours. I
16 am Zeljko Olujic, Defence Counsel for Mr. Zdravko
17 Mucic, along with my colleague, Niko Duric, attorney
18 from Croatia. Thank you.
19 MR. KARABDIC: Good morning, Your Honours. I
20 am Salih Karabdic, attorney from Sarajevo, Defence
21 Counsel for Mr. Hazim Delic.
22 MS. McMURREY: Good morning, Your Honours,
23 I am Cynthia McMurrey, and along with my colleague,
24 Nancy Boler, we represent Esad Landzo.
25 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Can we have the witness
2 (The witness entered court)
3 THE REGISTRAR: I remind you, sir, that you
4 are still under oath.
5 THE WITNESS: Yes.
6 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Ms. Residovic, your
8 MS. RESIDOVIC: Your Honour, I completed the
9 examination of this witness.
10 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Any cross-examination?
11 MR. OLUJIC: Your Honour, Defence for
12 Mr. Mucic does not have any questions of this witness.
13 MR. KARABDIC: Your Honours, the Defence of
14 Mr. Hazim Delic does not have any questions of this
16 MS. McMURREY: Your Honours, the Defence of
17 Esad Landzo does has no questions for this witness
18 either. Thank you.
19 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: The Prosecution, any
21 WITNESS: HUSEIN ALIC
22 Cross-examined by Mr. Niemann
23 MR. NIEMANN: Thank you, Your Honours.
24 Q. Mr. Alic, did you have or have you ever had a
25 nickname or street name of Sokol, S-O-K-O-L?
1 A. Yes, it is correct.
2 Q. During the war, and possibly afterwards, did
3 you know Mr. Delalic having a name or being referred to
4 as Oganj?
5 A. In my knowledge, he used a code name of Ikar
6 in one operation.
7 Q. Did you ever know him by the name of Oganj?
8 A. No. I believe an operation was called Oganj.
9 Q. You never at any stage wrote to him in a
10 private capacity, after the war, and addressed a letter
11 to him as Oganj and signed it Sokol?
12 A. I cannot recall that.
13 Q. Now, I think Judge Jan raised a matter
14 yesterday, but I'm not certain that we ever got a clear
15 answer to it. I might ask you the same question again,
16 for the purposes of this record. Were you aware of all
17 the orders, both written and oral, transmitted to or by
18 Mr. Delic during 1992?
19 A. Of course I could not know all of it. I
20 could know only a part.
21 Q. You said that in May, 1992 the JNA and SDS
22 forces attacked Hadzici. What do you mean by SDS
24 A. Organised and armed units consisting of
25 mainly Serb population, which were then formed into
1 a party of SDS. Prior to that they had training in the
2 JNA barracks, they were already prepared, and learned
3 how to block transportation routes and all the
4 important strategic sites overlooking the town of
6 Q. Did they operate under any particular name,
7 that you know of?
8 A. No. Those were SDS forces. I know how we
9 would call them, but I don't know their names.
10 Q. Now, did the JNA and SDS forces work together
11 during the attack on Hadzici?
12 A. Yes, it is correct.
13 Q. During the course of the war in 1992, did you
14 or members -- or people under your command ever take
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Where and when did you take these prisoners?
18 A. In the liberation action of Trnovo and the
19 Operation Strajiste.
20 Q. Who under your command actually took the
22 A. That was combat soldiers advanced, and then
23 the enemy surrenders, so I cannot name the soldiers who
24 would do that. These would be the units attacking and
25 capturing enemy soldiers.
1 Q. And when the prisoners were taken, where were
2 they kept in prison --
3 MS. RESIDOVIC: I do not see the relevance of
4 these questions in connection to this witness.
5 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: I suppose it follows
6 from his own answers, his earlier answers.
7 MR. NIEMANN:
8 Q. Where were the prisoners taken to?
9 A. We would then hand them over to the police
10 units, who would then take care of them.
11 Q. Do you know all of the units that were
12 subordinated to TG-1 when Mr. Delalic was the
14 A. I believe I can recall them, but I can't
15 really claim that I will remember them all, but I do
16 know the units. I might omit one or two, but I can
17 list them, if you want me to.
18 Q. I would be grateful if you would, and
19 certainly after all this time I wouldn't expect you to
20 remember all of them. So if you can assist us with
21 those that you can remember, I would be grateful.
22 A. TG-1 and its commander Zejnil Delalic had a
23 possibility to use the units of the municipal staffs of
24 Jablanica, Konjic, and the municipal staff of the TO of
25 Hadzici. In the meantime, there were units from other
1 municipal staffs who were subordinated to me, and
2 possibly to Mr. Delalic and TG-1. For that reason I
3 cannot recall all of them, because we have units from
4 Vakuf, Zenica, from Rijeka, Krajina.
5 Q. Are you aware whether all of the members of
6 these particular units were part of the command of
7 TG-1, or were only part of the members of these units
8 part of that command? Now, that may be a confusing
9 question. If it is, please say so, and I'll come
10 back. Did you hear my question?
11 A. I did not understand the question, so I
12 expected that you would continue.
13 Q. Okay. Sorry.
14 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Now, Mr. Niemann, don't
15 you think this detail is better for the witness who is
16 regarded as his chief of staff?
17 MR. NIEMANN: I don't necessarily need to
18 press it with this witness, Your Honours. I just
19 wanted to explore it with him. But I agree. I'll move
20 on, Your Honours.
21 Q. Do you know any of the members of the command
22 of TG-1 when Mr. Delalic was the commander; during the
23 time you knew him and were with him, did you know any
24 of the members and, if so, can you tell us who they
1 A. I know Mr. Pilica Sucro, who was the head of
2 staff. I know him best of all the others. And then
3 the artillery head, I used to know him, but I can't
4 recall his name right now. Then the communications
5 head also I cannot recall. I'm not very good with
7 Q. Thank you. That's fine. I just asked you
8 some questions about -- in the beginning about your
9 nickname, Sokol, and so forth. I just want to show you
10 a document that I would ask the usher to give to you,
11 and just looking at the Bosnian version of that
13 MS. RESIDOVIC: Could we please have a copy?
14 MR. NIEMANN: Pass that to Ms. Residovic.
15 She's seen the documents as part of the material
16 discovered to them.
17 Q. I don't want to go into details of this
18 personal letter of yours, but I just want you to tell
19 me whether the name of the person arrested and who
20 signed it, but I don't want to go into the details.
21 Just looking at that document, does that appear to be
22 your writing?
23 A. This is my writing.
24 Q. And it's signed by you as Sokol, is it?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. And am I right in saying it's addressed to
2 Herr Oganj?
3 A. That is also correct.
4 Q. And that's a reference to Mr. Delalic, isn't
6 A. This was back in 1994. It could be that I
7 have used that -- I don't know for which exact reason.
8 Maybe this was just an association in connection to the
9 action I have mentioned. And you can also see from the
10 letter that it's got social character.
11 Q. It is personal letter, and that's why I don't
12 want to go into the detail of it, but certainly you may
13 read, just to yourself, read through it and see whether
14 you can remember it. My only interest in it is whether
15 you wrote to Mr. Delalic and called him Oganj.
16 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Does it really mean
17 much, whether he could assume a particular name?
18 MR. NIEMANN: It means a lot, Your Honour,
19 when we look at the documents.
20 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Because I know so many
21 people who have nicknames to which they have no
22 relation to.
23 MR. NIEMANN: Well, Your Honours, it does go
24 to the documents that were discovered in Austria. It
25 does go very much germane to those.
1 Q. My question is you were writing to
2 Mr. Delalic in that letter, weren't you? Would you say
3 "yes" or "no", because we need to get it on the
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. And you referred to him here as Herr Oganj?
7 A. I already explained that.
8 Q. Okay. Thank you.
9 Your Honours, I tender that, but not for the
10 contents of it. It's a personal letter, I don't think
11 that it's necessary that the personal details be
12 exposed, but just with reference to the name and the
13 signature on the bottom.
14 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: (Microphone not on) --
15 put it to him in cross-examination. Don't you think
16 that is sufficient?
17 MR. NIEMANN: I won't press it, Your Honour.
18 I won't press it.
19 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: It is admitted he
20 referred to him as such, even if in a --
21 MR. NIEMANN: If it becomes an issue later
22 on, Your Honours, I can deal with it then.
23 JUDGE JAN: If you are referring to person
24 who has taken part in a particular operation. Just
25 call him by that name, not that only that it is his
2 MR. NIEMANN: Whatever it is, I wouldn't
3 know. There is some uncertainty as to why the name
4 Oganj was used, Your Honour.
5 JUDGE JAN: Also --
6 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone Your Honour.
7 MR. NIEMANN: That's true.
8 MS. RESIDOVIC: In any case, Your Honours,
9 you have maybe made your decision, but I wanted to
10 express our objection to this.
11 MR. NIEMANN: I don't press the tendering of
12 it, Your Honours, and I have no further questions.
13 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Thank you. Any
14 re-examination of this witness?
15 MS. RESIDOVIC: (No translation).
16 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: This is the end of your
17 testimony. Thank you very much, we are very grateful
18 for your assistance. Can we have your next witness?
19 You are discharged, please.
20 THE WITNESS: Thank you.
21 MS. RESIDOVIC: Good morning. Could we
22 please call for witness Pilica Sucro.
23 (The witness entered court)
24 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Please swear the
1 THE WITNESS: I solemnly declare that I will
2 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the
4 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Take your seat, please.
5 WITNESS: Pilica Sucro
6 Examined by Ms. Residovic.
7 Q. Good morning, sir.
8 A. Good morning.
9 Q. Could you please introduce yourself by
10 stating your full name to the Chamber.
11 A. My name is Pilica Sucro.
12 Q. Mr. Pilica, can you tell us where and when
13 you were born?
14 A. I was born April 5th, 1953 in the Village of
15 Mirojevici, area of Bistrica, and Bijela Polje (phoen),
17 Q. Where do you live, Mr. Pilica?
18 A. I now reside in Sarajevo.
19 Q. Mr. Pilica, can you tell us about your formal
21 A. After the elementary school, I completed high
22 school, then the military academy in the former JNA.
23 That would be my education for now.
24 Q. What is your rank now, Mr. Pilica?
25 A. I am a Colonel in the Army of
2 Q. Colonel, please tell the Chamber where were
3 you on April 6th, 1992, when the aggression against
4 Bosnia-Herzegovina began?
5 A. On April 6, 1992, I was in Kiseljak. I was
6 there with the former JNA.
7 Q. What rank did you hold in the former JNA,
8 Mr. Pilica?
9 A. I was a Major.
10 Q. Colonel, did you at any given moment during
11 1992, join the defence forces of Bosnia-Herzegovina?
12 A. Yes, I did.
13 Q. The Chamber already has sufficient evidence
14 concerning the legislation of the newly formed state
15 concerning its armed forces formation and
16 establishment. That's why I will not ask you these
17 questions. But could you tell us what were your first
18 military operations in April, 1992, as a member of the
20 A. My first duty, which was of a short period,
21 only several days, was sort of a military counsel to
22 the municipal staff of Kata (phoen). That was only for
23 several days.
24 Q. Mr. Pilica, did at any time during 1992 --
25 form a Tactical Group 1, was it formed, and did you
1 perform any tasks as a member of it?
2 A. Yes, I am familiar with its establishment.
3 TG-1 was founded and I was deputy commander of it. I
4 also had the task as the head of staff. Since this was
5 a small command post, there were instances where I was
6 also in charge of operations.
7 Q. Who appointed you to this post?
8 A. I was appointed to this post by the staff of
9 the Territorial Defence of Bosnia-Herzegovina at that
10 time, that is, the superior command. And it was the
11 highest command which dealt with military or was in
12 charge of military matters in Bosnia-Herzegovina.
13 Q. Mr. Pilica, can you recall when you started
14 with your duty as deputy commander or as the chief of
15 staff of the Tactical Group 1?
16 A. Yes, I can recall. This was on 12 May 1992.
17 Q. May the witness please be shown document
18 P183? Is it D1? May the English version please be
19 placed on the ELMO.
20 JUDGE JAN: Put the lights on, the light on
21 the ELMO.
22 MS. RESIDOVIC:
23 Q. Colonel, is this the document of your
24 appointment, and did you personally supply this
25 document to the Defence in this case?
1 A. Yes, this is the document you are referring
2 to, and I personally submitted it to the Defence, at
3 their request.
4 MS. RESIDOVIC: Your Honours, since the
5 witness has recognised this document as his own, and it
6 is relevant for these proceedings, I move to admit it
7 into evidence.
8 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: It's admitted.
9 MS. RESIDOVIC:
10 Q. In this document, Mr. Pilica, there is no
11 date of issue, however, you told me that you started on
12 your duty on 12 May 1992. Is it correct that that was
13 the date on which you started your duties?
14 A. Yes, that is correct.
15 Q. Who was your first commander, Mr. Pilica?
16 A. My first commander was Mustafa Polutak,
17 currently General in the Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina.
18 Q. What was your Tactical Group tasked with?
19 A. Our Tactical Group was tasked with lifting of
20 the siege of Sarajevo.
21 Q. Mr. Pilica, can you tell me whether, in the
22 course of carrying out this task, what was the first
23 operation which your Tactical Group conducted, and in
24 which area or direction did it take place?
25 A. One of the first attempts at breaking through
1 the ring around Sarajevo was in the area Koscanj, that
2 is a village near Hadzici, Batalo Brdo, Rakovica, and
3 if you continued in that direction you go to Sarajevo.
4 Q. Colonel, can you remember when this took
6 A. This took place in the latter half of May,
8 Q. Were certain units from Konjic also involved
9 in this task at that time?
10 A. No, not in that attempt.
11 Q. Colonel, can you remember, given the area of
12 your activity, whether, at some subsequent attempt at
13 lifting of the siege of Sarajevo, units from Konjic did
14 take part?
15 A. Yes, I can remember. This was in the middle
16 of June, 1992, in the area Pazaric, Hadzici, Sarajevo,
17 and in this attempt there was a unit from Konjic, that
18 is from the territory of the Municipality of Konjic,
19 which took part in it.
20 Q. Mr. Pilica, a moment ago we saw the order of
21 your appointment. In the same order Mr. Mustafa Gagula
22 was appointed. Can you tell me who was in charge of
23 appointing commanders of Tactical Groups?
24 A. It was only the superior command in this
25 period. It was the main staff of the armed forces of
1 the Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina.
2 Q. Was the commander of Tactical Group or could
3 the commander of Tactical Group appoint members of the
4 Tactical Group staff?
5 A. He could not appoint anyone to duties or to
6 posts, any members of the Tactical Group, but he could
7 nominate and also select people with whom he wanted to
8 work. His nominations would be sent to the superior
9 command through different means of communication, and
10 following that -- for the most part the orders would
11 reflect those nominations and the commanding staff of
12 the Tactical Group 1 would be appointed in such way.
13 Q. Colonel, can you tell me how long you were in
14 this -- on this duty of the deputy commander of
15 Tactical Group 1?
16 A. I was on this duty until 10 October 1992.
17 Q. A moment ago you said that your Tactical
18 Group was tasked with an attempt to lift the siege of
19 Sarajevo. Throughout the period of time while you were
20 chief of staff of the Tactical Group 1, was this the
21 only task of your Tactical Group? Did it remain the
22 only one?
23 A. Yes, it did. From the beginning to end, it
24 was a task -- it was the main task of the Tactical
25 Group, of this group, and of course during this period
1 of time, while I was on this duty, as I stated, it was
2 the case, and even thereafter until the Tactical Group
3 was dissolved.
4 Q. Colonel, did the command of your Tactical
5 Group have a large command or was it a very developed
6 command with many different bodies?
7 A. The principles of organisation of a Tactical
8 Group are such that it is a temporary formation. It
9 was established for specific tasks and, of course, it
10 had a number of officers needed to carry out these
11 tasks. Our Tactical Group had a small staff, and this
12 number varied, basically, between five to eight members
13 throughout the time -- the period within which the
14 Tactical Group existed.
15 Q. Colonel, we are not soldiers, but so far we
16 have learned that certain units were subordinate to you
17 in order for you to be able to carry out your task. As
18 a chief of staff of Tactical Group 1 in this period,
19 can you tell me how it was that you carried out your
20 tasks in practice, or how were certain units placed
21 under the Tactical Group command in practice?
22 A. Our first task within these activities was to
23 visit all the units under the command of the municipal
24 staffs in order to gather as comprehensive information
25 as possible about the size of troops, the training.
1 Q. Can you please just hold on a second.
2 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: You may proceed,
4 MS. RESIDOVIC:
5 Q. Will you please go on, sir. You started
6 explaining how you went about putting together the
7 troops that you needed for -- in order to carry out
8 your tasks.
9 A. When we received complete information on the
10 available troops and resources, we would plan our
11 combat operations within the framework of our task, and
12 we proposed to the superior command the way in which
13 they should be engaged and used.
14 Q. Colonel, did the superior command, and as I
15 understood you, this was the supreme command of the
16 armed forces of Bosnia-Herzegovina, did the superior
17 command then issue orders to you which units were
18 supposed to become subordinate to your command, that is
19 of the Tactical Group?
20 A. Yes, of course. After they received our
21 proposals and elaborated plans, the superior command
22 would issue an order, or a decision; which units will,
23 from the municipal staffs of defence would be engaged
24 in the proposed combat operations.
25 Of course, these orders would then reach our
1 command and these were orders which pointed --
2 indicated what our further involvement and use of these
3 forces would be.
4 Q. Colonel, after this order by the supreme
5 command, did the municipal staff, which was supposed to
6 set aside units, issue their own orders specifying
7 which units are to be subordinate to you?
8 A. Yes, that is correct. The municipal staff
9 would order its own units to place themselves under our
10 command for a certain period, and for certain combat
12 Q. Colonel, the other units who were -- which
13 were not included in these orders of the staff, under
14 whose command did they remain?
15 A. They remained in the zones of responsibility
16 of the municipal defence staffs, and they were engaged
17 and deployed according to their own plans.
18 Q. Colonel, can you tell me, where was the seat
19 of your Tactical Group, that is Tactical Group 1?
20 A. In our military parlance we call it a command
21 post, so the command post of the Tactical Group 1 was
22 from the beginning to the end of its existence in
23 Pazaric, in the Pazaric barracks, to be more specific.
24 Q. Colonel, can you tell me, did there come a
25 time in 1992 when Zejnil Delalic became commander of
1 the Tactical Group 1?
2 A. Yes, there did come a time.
3 Q. If you can recall, can you tell me when
4 Mr. Delalic assumed his command duty in Pazaric, that
5 is, when did you turn over your duties to him, that is,
6 when did you show him everything that he needed to know
7 in Pazaric?
8 A. I recall that time, I recall those days. It
9 was around 27 July 1992 that we heard that Zejnil
10 Delalic was to take over the command of the Tactical
11 Group 1, and he actually took over on 30 July 1992, and
12 this happened in such a manner that he came to the
13 command post where we did everything that was necessary
14 in order to take over the command.
15 And from there on throughout the period of my
16 staying -- which was 10 October 1992, he remained on
17 duty as commander of Tactical Group 1.
18 Q. Colonel, do you recall where Mr. Polutak
19 went, based on this order of, as you recall, 27 July
21 A. Of course I do remember. We are very good
22 friends. He went to a new duty, which was larger, a
23 bigger duty. He moved to the superior command, to a
24 part of it, which at that time was located in Visoko.
25 And we called it the Forward Command Post of the main
1 staff of the armed forces of the Republic of
3 Q. Colonel, you probably also know who was the
4 commander of this Forward Command Post and, if you do,
5 can you please give us that name?
6 A. This was our current commander, General
7 Rasim Delic.
8 Q. Colonel, are you absolutely sure that
9 Mr. Delalic was only appointed on the 27th and took
10 over command on 30 July?
11 A. I was only sure when I saw the order of his
12 appointment to commander of the Tactical Group, and
13 this was on the 8th August 1992, that is, several days
14 later. Even though we knew and we believed that he was
15 officially appointed commander of the Tactical Group 1,
16 even when we first heard that he was appointed to this
17 duty, and I mentioned a date, that the date was 27
19 Q. Thank you. Until 27 July, are you absolutely
20 certain that the duty of the commander of Tactical
21 Group 1 was carried out by Mr. Mustafa Polutak?
22 A. Not only until the 27th, but until the 30th
23 of July. Polutak was officially commander of the
24 Tactical Group 1, that is until the date when I -- as I
25 stated, the command was transferred. And this was at a
1 command post in Pazaric.
2 Q. This is a hypothetical question, Colonel. If
3 someone was to tell you or show you a document,
4 according to which Mr. Zejnil Delalic was commander of
5 Tactical Group 1 on 18 July, what would you say to
7 A. I do not know. I did not see such a
8 document, such appointment. Personally, I did not see
9 such document. The first appointment which was in
10 written form, I told you when I saw it. I told you the
11 date. And it did arrive at the command post of the
12 Tactical Group.
13 Q. Now, you are completely certain that
14 Commander Polutak was carrying out his duty until the
15 date that you mentioned, 27th, that is the 30th of
17 A. Yes, I am absolutely certain.
18 Q. Thank you. After Mr. Delalic took over the
19 duties of commander of Tactical Group 1 on 30 July, did
20 you, Mr. Pilica, at that time inform him of an order
21 that a gun from Konjic was to be transferred to the
22 zone of your operation?
23 A. Of course I did inform him of that, and this
24 gun is an event that is a good reminder of the events
25 of that period, because my speciality is artillery and
1 even a single gun in that period meant a lot for me.
2 Q. Colonel, do you remember whether, with
3 respect to the transfer of this artillery piece, there
4 were certain problems with the municipal staff in
6 A. Yes, there were. There were -- the problem
7 was a sizeable one.
8 Q. Did the municipal staff try to verify whether
9 this order actually came from the supreme command?
10 A. Of course they did verify, because they are
11 under the command of the supreme command, and not under
12 our command. So that's one issue. And the other issue
13 was that they badly needed this artillery piece to
14 carry out their own combat tasks in their zone.
15 However, when they saw that this was an order
16 from the commander Sefer Halilovic, they did not
17 continue having a problem with it, and this artillery
18 piece was transferred to its new destination, which was
19 set by the supreme command, and I personally was
20 involved in organising the transfer of this piece to
21 its new emplacement.
22 Q. Colonel, when Mr. Delalic took over the duty
23 from Mr. Polutak, did he also take over the same combat
24 task given to Mr. Polutak?
25 A. Yes. Exact same task.
1 Q. Colonel, you said that you had a first
2 attempt at lifting the siege in May, then the second in
3 June, and then in this second one some units from
4 Konjic took part.
5 Can you tell me, at that period when these
6 certain units from Konjic were involved and Mr. Polutak
7 was in charge, did Mr. Delalic have any command
8 responsibilities with respect to these units from
9 Konjic which were subordinate to you during this period
10 in 1992?
11 A. I know that he did not have any command
12 duties, and that during this period he engaged, among
13 other tasks, of which I am not aware, but I know that
14 he was supplying -- that he had supplied the unit which
15 was sent to us for this combat operation, and he
16 supplied them in terms of clothes, footwear. And I
17 remember that it was the best equipped unit that we
19 This had a special impact in combat moral and
20 psychologically. And I think in turn it had an effect
21 that during that period it was the only unit who
22 actually carried out its task. And to us soldiers,
23 this meant that it had been well prepared, both in
24 terms of the equipment and its morale, and in terms of
25 professional military training.
1 Q. Thank you, Colonel. When Mr. Delalic took
2 over the duty, during that time or some other time
3 whilst you were his chief of staff, do you know that
4 Mr. Delalic was a commander of all the formations
5 within your area of activity?
6 A. I heard of it, but I never saw anything in a
7 written form. For us soldiers, there is no such an
8 order stating commander of all the formations, and we
9 did not accept it in the military meaning of it. I
10 never saw such a document.
11 Q. Colonel, you have heard of it, but did
12 Mr. Delalic, was he ever a commander of all the
13 formations, or did he have exactly the same authorities
14 as Mr. Polutak?
15 A. He was never a commander of all the
16 formations. He had duties and tasks identical to the
17 ones performed by the former commander, Mustafa
19 Q. Since you have told us that you did not see
20 the document, I will not show it to you, but I will
21 show you another one and ask of you the same question,
22 whether you have ever seen it. Can the witness be
23 shown document D145/6/4, page 896?
24 Colonel, have you ever seen this document?
25 A. No, never.
1 Q. Can the witness be shown document D146/1?
2 Colonel, during 1992 did you see this
4 A. Yes, I did. This is a document that came to
5 our command, which gave us the final written proof of
6 Mr. Zejnil Delalic as a commander of TG-1. It is
7 signed by the President of the Republic of
8 Bosnia-Herzegovina, Mr. Alija Izetbegovic, as the
9 supreme commander of the armed forces.
10 Q. You can see at the top, the date of issue of
11 the order, and you also see the date of filing around
12 sendout, which was August 17th. Since the Chamber, by
13 this time, has a picture of how documents and orders
14 were transmitted, my question to you is: During 1992
15 were there occasions that one document comes somewhat
16 later, or that a latter document comes before the one
17 that was dated earlier?
18 A. Yes, it was possible, because we had very
19 poor communications. It would happen that sometimes a
20 certain document would be transmitted very quickly,
21 either through a messenger or through some other means
22 which we would have to choose, but the largest number
23 of orders would be transmitted through radio
24 communications. For a brief period of time at the
25 beginning of the war we had telephone links, but at the
1 period of Delalic's command there were no telephone
2 lines, because, in the area of the town of Hadzici,
3 railroads were blown up by the enemy, damaging the
4 telephone lines. And we were unable to use it from
5 then on.
6 Q. Colonel, you have stated clearly that by the
7 order of the supreme command, a part of units were
8 subordinated to you, also on the basis of that you said
9 that municipal staffs under the order of the main staff
10 subordinated equipment to you.
11 During the time when you were the chief of
12 staff of TG-1, was there an obligation put on municipal
13 staffs, following the order of the supreme command, for
14 those municipal staffs to forward to you intelligence
16 A. Yes. Because we as a temporary command did
17 not have means or personnel who would gather
18 intelligence about the enemy. We usually had only one
19 officer who would coordinate this work and take care of
20 the fulfilment of that particular task. Therefore, all
21 the data necessary to ask you to carry out our tasks
22 had to be gathered through municipal staffs, i.e. their
23 bodies and units. To remind the Chamber that these
24 were data about the enemy, from the front line to the
25 back -- to the rear of the enemy. It was very seldom a
1 counterintelligence activity in our area.
2 Q. Colonel, since we have already heard about
3 the preparations for operation JUG and so on, were
4 there some unpleasant surprises, that is the enemy
5 activities within your area during your preparations
6 for the operations, and did such surprises cause you to
7 react and to look to communicate with the supreme
9 A. Yes, there were such cases. There were
10 activities of reconnaissance and sabotage units by the
11 enemy in the area of the front-line and deeper into our
12 area. And the example that was most severe was the
13 wounding of Mr. Catic Djuberko, and the killing of Jozo
14 Fadil as well as wounding of other people who were in
15 that mission.
16 Their task was the one of reconnaissance
17 during the preparation phase for the operation JUG.
18 The presidency of our state and the city of Sarajevo
19 expected a lot from that particular operation. That
20 was an operation that was being prepared for a long
21 time, it was of crucial importance, and we expected to
22 lift the siege finally.
23 Q. Can we now move on from the preparation for
24 the operation. This incident that you mentioned that
25 was very shattering to you. After it, in your personal
1 knowledge, did there come a directive or an order from
2 the supreme command which was aimed at strengthening
3 the obligation of municipal staffs, in view of
4 co-operation -- their co-operation with Tactical Groups
5 in relation to intelligence data and other issues
6 connected to those bodies?
7 A. Yes, of course. Even earlier we undertook
8 some measures concerning intelligence at all levels.
9 And we were also bound by certain rules and manuals,
10 but after this particular incident reaction was very
11 resolute, and it also came from the level of our
12 supreme command, from their bodies, resulting in
13 additional directives and warnings concerning
14 intelligence providing.
15 Q. Can the witness now be shown P244, the
16 evidence for the Prosecution. I apologise, 224. I may
17 have said the wrong number.
18 Colonel, could you quickly read through the
19 document. I do not want you to authenticate it,
20 because you have said before the Chamber that you left
21 TG-1 on October 10th, but in relation to what you have
22 said earlier, I would have a few questions in regard to
24 Colonel, does this document have any
25 relation, or does it stem out of a particular directive
1 from the supreme command concerning the obligations of
2 municipal staffs that you have mentioned -- that you
3 personally saw?
4 A. Yes, this is a usual military reaction, which
5 was aimed at more serious understanding of the problem,
6 and it stems directly out of directives of the supreme
7 command staff of the BiH Army.
8 Q. Thank you. Could you please look at the
9 date. It states November 14th, 1992. Colonel,
10 regardless of the fact that you left for another post,
11 another duty, did you know that during that time there
12 were again intense preparations for another attempt of
13 lifting of the siege of Sarajevo, and the same area
14 between Igman towards -- between Igman and Sarajevo?
15 A. Yes, I am familiar with it, because my next
16 duty after TG was chief of staff and deputy commander
17 of a brigade in the Visoko front line, and one of their
18 basic tasks was also to try to lift the siege of
19 Sarajevo from their side, and concerning intelligence
20 data and security, all of us outside the ring had the
21 duty to cooperate and exchange data.
22 Q. Thank you. Did you know that this next
23 attempt, which was not performed by Tactical Groups,
24 because by that time they were non-existent any more,
25 was it December of 1992, if can you recall?
1 A. From the area of Visoko municipality, there
2 was an attempt. I also know that --
3 JUDGE JAN: We are not concerned with that
4 please confine yourself to the duties of Mr. Delalic as
5 TG-1. Ask him his relations with the Konjic
7 MS. RESIDOVIC: Your Honours, since this is a
8 document signed allegedly by my client, we had to know
9 whether he had the authority and what was the cause of
10 it, and the witness had explained the seriousness of
11 preparations for the third attempt --
12 JUDGE JAN: We've had enough of that
13 (Microphone not on) the task of lifting the siege of
14 Sarajevo. Intelligence was required, so issued
15 directions in accordance with the directive given by
16 the supreme command.
17 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: As chief of staff of
18 Delalic. That was why you called him.
19 MS. RESIDOVIC: Yes.
20 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: So let's have the
21 evidence related to such details --
22 MS. RESIDOVIC:
23 Q. As the chief of staff, do you know whether
24 Mr. Delalic had the authority to turn to a municipal
25 staff for the carrying out of such tasks?
1 A. Yes, he did.
2 Q. Concerning paragraph 6, which you can take a
3 look at. Did the commander have the authority to
4 punish municipal chiefs of staff, and what was his
5 authority if his request was not met?
6 A. He had no right to punish chiefs of staff and
7 municipal staffs, but, what he could do, he could
8 submit a report to a superior command in relation to
9 not meeting the duties, not performing the tasks, and
10 not cooperating with him.
11 Q. The interpretation was that he could not
12 punish the chief of staff, and the witness said the
13 commander of the staff. The difference is only between
14 the chief and the commander. Did you say that, that he
15 could not punish commanders?
16 A. Commanders of municipal defence staffs,
17 because it relates to them.
18 Q. Colonel, did Mr. Delalic, during his command
19 of TG-1, have authority to appoint or dismiss
20 commanders of municipal staffs or their members?
21 A. No, he did not. He could propose certain
22 changes to a superior command, but he personally did
23 not have the authority.
24 Q. Colonel, did your Tactical Group, during the
25 command of Mr. Polutak, and particularly during the
1 command of Mr. Zejnil Delalic, have any authority over
2 institutions such as schools, prisons, hospitals, or
3 any other institutions?
4 A. No, never.
5 Q. Did Mr. Delalic, at any time while you were
6 there, meaning the 10th of October, or maybe later if
7 you know, receive any particular authorisation to have
8 a duty or an authority over a prison?
9 A. No, he did not.
10 Q. During the command of Mr. Polutak, and
11 particularly during the command of Mr. Delalic, as a
12 commander of TG-1, did he or other commanders used to
13 transmit orders of the supreme command to municipal
14 staffs or to some other institutions which were in your
15 area of activity, or in some other area which would be
16 outside or remote from the first ring, the first line
17 of the blockade?
18 A. Yes, there were such cases during the command
19 of Mr. Polutak, as well as during the command of
20 Mr. Delalic.
21 Q. Can the witness be shown documents D145,
22 annex 5-D/41 and annex 5-D/42, pages 813 and 818.
23 Could you please take a look at the document
24 dated August 24th, 1992. Can we have the document
25 dated 24th on the ELMO, because now we have the one
1 dated on the 28th.
2 Colonel, we can see that the date here is
3 August 24th, 1992. My first question to you would be:
4 Between the 20th and the end of August, was it a time
5 of intensive daily combat for your Tactical Group, or
6 was it a quiet period in the TG-1 activities?
7 A. This was a period of intensive combat in
8 connection to the operation JUG. And I have just
9 stated that this was an operation that we all expected
10 a lot from.
11 Q. Colonel, during that time did the commander
12 with all of the members of the command of TG-1, were
13 they at the front -- the first front line where the
14 combat was?
15 A. Yes, all the members of the command of TG-1
16 were at the -- at the observation post in Orman, or
17 another part of the command was in the command in
18 Pazarici, which was just behind the hill. We were all
19 very active, situation was complex, and every moment
20 was of grave importance. We even had air strikes,
21 fierce artillery activities, and so on.
22 MS. RESIDOVIC: Your Honours, before I go on
23 with this document, could this be a good time for a
25 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: The Trial Chamber will
1 rise and reassemble at noon.
2 --- Recess taken at 11.30 a.m.
3 --- On resuming at 12.10 a.m.
4 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Before we start, I have
5 tried to get in touch with the Victims and Witnesses'
6 Unit. And I hear, Mr. Olujic, you have not been
7 cooperating with them. You have not given them a list
8 of your witnesses. They have not got any idea of who
9 those who you really want to contact and those who you
10 want them to deal with.
11 You perhaps might have tried today to see
12 them. Possibly they might be able to see what they can
13 do and some of your witnesses might not need, perhaps
14 visas and you likely can get them on short notice.
15 MR. OLUJIC: With your permission, Your
16 Honours, last night, after you've given us your
17 suggestion, I contacted my collaborators. However,
18 until this morning, I was unable to secure up until now
19 some witnesses for whom I could guarantee that they
20 would appear next week. And this is the reason why I
21 did not contact the Victims and Witnesses' unit, simply
22 because I was not in a position to either give them the
23 exact names, or their locations at which they are at
24 present because some of them are in the third
1 I have given myself a deadline until two
2 o'clock this afternoon, if I do not receive the
3 relevant information, unfortunately, we would not be
4 able to actually provide any witnesses which I have
5 suggested we may be able to provide.
6 There's still a small window of opportunity.
7 I am expecting some telephone calls early this
8 afternoon, but I assure you that we have done
9 everything that we can. Also, I want to assure you
10 that on 22nd, June, when it would be our turn and if
11 the Defence of the first accused do not have any
12 witnesses available, we would be able to provide some
13 witnesses and my colleague, Niko Djuric, did already
14 did make travel arrangements with some of the witnesses
15 for that period of time.
16 We also have to coordinate the appearance of
17 witnesses with the documents that we need to present at
18 the time of their testimony. So we are attempting to
19 comply as best we can. We will know by two o'clock
20 this afternoon and at 2.30, after the afternoon recess,
21 we will tell you whether we could or could not be in a
22 position to comply with our ruling.
23 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: I don't know how you got
24 your date of 22nd of June as the date you expected to,
25 the date the first accused is expected to start another
1 witness. That was not in the projection made by the
2 order of this Trial Chamber. So when the counsel
3 decides on its own in the exercise of its own
4 discretion, perhaps it might be misconceived and will
5 not fall in line with the realities of the situation.
6 What the Trial Chamber is doing is to exhaust
7 all evidence on all remedies for exercising our
8 discretion to manage the proceedings as much as justice
9 of the case demands. I think we've done enough for any
10 reasonable tribunal to assure our intention to carry on
11 with the proceedings according to the rules of this
12 Tribunal. So we have asked you if you could not, then
13 I suppose we come to the conclusion which is
15 We indicated what we would do. We do not
16 intend to spend next week without hearing evidence from
17 the witnesses of accused persons. We do not intend.
18 If we are compelled to do so, then we'll take the
19 normal procedure which should apply in such cases.
20 Thank you very much.
21 Will you kindly invite the witness.
22 (The witness entered court)
23 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Please take your seat.
24 THE REGISTRAR: I remind you, sir, that you
25 are still under oath.
1 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: You may proceed, Ms.
3 MS. RESIDOVIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
4 Q. Colonel, before the recess I asked you to
5 look at a document of 24 August. You said to my prior
6 questions that there was a practice that commanders did
7 transmit orders to other commands and commanders. Do
8 you know whether you personally in that you know from
9 that period of 1992, do you know anything about this
10 order that Mr. Zejnil Delalic sent to the municipal
11 staff in Konjic?
12 A. Yes, I do know of it.
13 Q. Can you tell me whether you personally
14 witnessed this order which Mr. Delalic received from
15 the supreme command in order to transmit it to the
16 municipal staff?
17 A. Yes, I was present there.
18 Q. Colonel, do you know under what circumstances
19 this order arrived? That is, on which duty were you
20 and Mr. Delalic at the time when this order arrived?
21 A. We were involved in the principal task of our
22 Tactical Group as well as our neighbouring groups. We
23 were engaged in the attempt to lift the siege of
24 Sarajevo. That is, we were engaged in the operation
25 JUG. And this was during the most dynamic period of
1 this operation.
2 Q. Is the English version of this order on the
3 ELMO? It may have been moved during the recess. Is it
4 still there, please?
5 A. I believe that is.
6 Q. Very well, thank you. Now I can see it on my
7 monitor too. So as you were saying, this was during
8 the most dynamic period of the Operation JUG, that Mr.
9 Delalic received the order to transmit it to the
10 municipal staff. Can you tell me what Mr. Delalic
11 specifically did at that time?
12 A. I do know what he did. Before he went to
13 carry out a task, which was part of the group that was
14 in charge of the Operation JUG, he dictated these
15 points of this document to a typist and he ordered that
16 his messenger, Irfan, that he be dispatched in a
17 vehicle to the municipal staff in Konjic as soon as
18 possible and that this document be handed to the
19 command of the municipal staff in Konjic.
20 And let me just add this. He quickly
21 sketched another couple of things that were on his mind
22 at the time and for which he believed that the
23 municipal staff should know of so that several
24 different issues are handled here, which gives a basis
25 for different courses of action.
1 Q. Colonel, will you please look at the
2 paragraph 5. Is this one of these points and what was
3 the connection? How was that connected with the
4 Tactical Group 1 of which you were a part and of which
5 Mr. Delalic was a commander?
6 A. This was part of the carrying out of the task
7 for the Operation JUG in the area of activity from
8 Bjelinici towards Kalinovik. And the objective was to
9 link up forces in that area and to facilitate the main
10 tasks of the operation JUG. So this was one of this
11 secondary areas with respect to Operation JUG.
12 Q. We've already heard that the Operation JUG
13 already had these secondary or ancillary areas of
14 operation. Was this area of the Municipality of Konjic
15 one of the of these secondary or ancillary areas with
16 respect to the operation JUG?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Thank you, Colonel. Would you now, please,
19 look at the document of 28 August 1992. And if you
20 will please place the English version of it on the
21 ELMO. Colonel, is this also one of the documents which
22 was transmitted to one of the bodies in the field?
23 A. Of course it is, you can see that right away
24 from the preamble of this document, which refers to the
25 order issued by the supreme command staff in Sarajevo
1 and it also gives the reference number. And it also
2 refers to a previous document which we saw just a
3 moment ago.
4 Q. Were you present when this document was
5 drafted or were you not?
6 A. I was not present when this document was
7 drafted and I was not familiar with it.
8 Q. Tell me this date, 28 August 1992, was this
9 also a period of very intensive operations, that is
10 minute by minute combat operations of your group?
11 A. Yes, it was.
12 Q. Thank you. We can remove the documents.
13 Colonel, can you now tell me whether Tactical Group 1
14 of which you were a chief of staff had authority to
15 approve or prohibit visits of international
16 organisations to the military facilities?
17 A. No.
18 Q. Do you know who had authority to issue such
20 A. I know that this was under the authority of
21 the main staff or the supreme command of the armed
23 Q. Colonel, a hypothetical question for you. If
24 you as a chief of staff of a Tactical Group, an
25 international organisation came to you in order to try
1 to organise such a visit, would you be in a position to
2 issue such a permit or would you be in a position to
3 respond in a different way?
4 A. Of course we could not have issued such a
5 permit. That is a commander of the Tactical Group
6 could not because it was not in his authority to do
8 Q. But could the commander, or you personally,
9 mediate with the supreme command in order to obtain
10 such a permit?
11 A. Yes, we could do that within the limits of
12 the available time and the situation in which we were.
13 Q. Colonel do you have any information with
14 respect to the prison in Konjic?
15 A. No, I do not have any information, obviously,
16 during that period of time.
17 Q. Have you ever heard that Zejnil Delalic had
18 any relation to the prison or have you ever heard or
19 seen that he was given some kind of an order regarding
20 authority over any prison and especially Celebici?
21 A. I have never heard or seen anything of that
22 nature. And this issue was not part of the authority
23 of Tactical Group 1, with exception of the issue of
24 mediation, which we addressed a moment ago, which
25 happened on a couple of occasions. But that was not
1 really done.
2 Q. When you talk about mediation, that was a
3 comment on the document of the 24th?
4 A. Yes, yes.
5 Q. Did you have any other document relating to
6 the prison in the files of your command?
7 A. No, we did not have any.
8 Q. Colonel, even though you gave a certain
9 number, let me ask you again, did commander of Tactical
10 Group 1 at any point, at any single day during the time
11 when you were chief of staff there to appoint the
12 commander, staff, guards or anyone in the prison in
14 A. He was not authorised to do it and he did not
15 do it.
16 Q. Colonel, based on your personal knowledge,
17 can you tell the court whether the commander of
18 Tactical Group 1, whether it was Polutak or Delalic,
19 whether either of them ever appointed Zdravko Mucic
20 commander of the prison in Celebici?
21 A. Neither of them did appoint Zdravko Mucic
22 commander of the prison.
23 Q. While you were the chief of staff, can you
24 tell the court whether the commander of the prison, of
25 that prison or any other prison in the area in which
1 you were active in Konjic or other places where there
2 may have been active prisons, in other words, did the
3 commander of prison have an obligation to report to
4 Zejnil Delalic as commander of Tactical Group 1 and did
5 you ever see any such document or report at your
6 command in the files?
7 A. No, he did not have such an obligation and we
8 never received any such report.
9 Q. Did the international organisation have an
10 obligation to submit any reports of their visits to the
11 prisons and did you in the Tactical Group 1 command
12 ever receive any report by any international
14 A. We never received any report by an
15 international organisation.
16 Q. Colonel, while you were chief of staff
17 between 12 May and 10 October, was the commander of
18 Tactical Group 1, either Mr. Polutak or Mr. Delalic,
19 authorised to appoint members of the military
20 investigative commission who conducted questioning of
21 prisoners in the prison?
22 A. They were not authorised for that, and they
23 did not do it.
24 Q. Colonel, can you tell me whether commander of
25 Tactical Group 1 was authorised to discipline military
1 or other persons who may have committed criminal acts
2 or other insubordination acts in the area of the Konjic
4 A. Punishment or disciplining, as we call it,
5 was not part of the authority of the Tactical Group 1,
6 and we did not engage in that.
7 Q. Colonel, do you know whether Mr. Delalic, or
8 Mr. Polutak, as commanders of Tactical Group 1, had any
9 other authority over the Celebici prison which I have
10 not asked specifically in a separate question? In
11 other words, did they have any other authorities in
12 that regard as part of their duties?
13 A. They had no authority within the framework of
14 their duties with respect to Celebici.
15 Q. During the Operation JUG, if you remember,
16 because you were directly involved with combat units
17 and activities, did Tactical Group 1, during the
18 operation, have subordinated units which were coming
19 from Konjic?
20 A. Do you mean the municipal defence staff of
21 the Municipality of Konjic or some other units?
22 Q. Can you remember whether, during the
23 Operation JUG in the area of Orman and so forth, where
24 you were active, did you have a subordinate combat unit
25 from the municipal staff of Konjic?
1 A. No, not a single one.
2 Q. Colonel, do you know whether those units were
3 engaged at all in the Operation JUG and, if so, do you
4 know where they were engaged?
5 A. I know they were engaged in the Operation
6 JUG, but within the area of Trnovo, and the Trnovo
7 front line towards Krupac and further on towards
9 Q. Colonel, did at any time a guard or some
10 other member of staff in Celebici prison, was he
11 subordinated to the Tactical Group 1 at the time when
12 you were the chief of staff of it?
13 A. No, never.
14 Q. Colonel, do you know whether any of your
15 soldiers, who were subordinate to you during an
16 operation, go to Celebici and commit a crime there?
17 A. No, nobody did, because there was no need for
18 them to go there.
19 Q. While Zejnil Delalic was TG-1 commander, did
20 any of your soldiers commit a crime in some other
21 area? Do you have any knowledge of that?
22 A. Within the period of our command over those
23 units, or groups, there was no such case.
24 MS. RESIDOVIC: Thank you, Colonel. I have
25 no further questions for this witness.
1 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Cross-examinations,
3 MR. OLUJIC: No, Your Honours, we do not have
5 MR. KARABDIC: Your Honours, we do not have
6 questions either.
7 MS. McMURREY: The Defence of Esad Landzo has
8 no questions of this witness either. Thank you.
9 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Cross-examination by the
10 Prosecution, please
11 MS. McHENRY: Good afternoon, Your Honours.
12 Yes, the Prosecution does have cross-examination.
13 Thank you.
14 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: You may proceed,
16 Cross-examined by Ms. McHenry
17 Q. Good afternoon, sir. My name is Teresa
18 McHenry, and on behalf of the Prosecution I am going to
19 ask you some questions. I am going to ask that you
20 listen carefully to my questions and, if you don't
21 understand them, please just ask me to repeat or
22 rephrase. I'll also tell you that a number of
23 questions I am going to ask may just require a "yes" or
24 "no" answer, and you will not have to repeat things
25 you've already said in direct.
1 So if you can fairly answer a question with a
2 "yes" or "no", please do so, just so we can finish
3 more quickly.
4 A. (Nod).
5 JUDGE JAN: Don't nod your head. Say "yes"
6 or "no," because it has to be recorded here.
7 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: We would like to have --
8 THE WITNESS: I apologise. Yes.
9 MS. McHENRY:
10 Q. Sir, during the time that you were chief of
11 staff and Mr. Delalic was the commander of Tactical
12 Group 1, who were the other members of the staff?
13 A. There were as follows: Gagula Mustafa,
14 Turkovic, Kiba.
15 Q. What was the position of Mr. or
16 Ms. Turkovic?
17 A. It's a Ms. Turkovic. She was a typist. Then
18 Kazazic, Amir. He was an administrative officer.
19 Gagula Mustafa was assistant commander for logistics.
20 And for a brief period of time we also had Turcinovic.
21 We called him Zeka. Also for a brief period we had
22 Rekic, Sead, and later, after Turcinovic, we got
23 Selimovic. I cannot recall his first name. I will
24 eventually. This was the group. Later on we also had
25 Mr. Karic Salko, who, prior to that, was a member of
1 the municipal staff of Hadzici. Selimovic Hamid was
2 the name of the person. This was the command of TG-1,
3 at the moment of the hand-over of duties of a commander
4 of TG-1 when Mr. Delalic took over it.
5 Q. And then during the time that Mr. Delalic was
6 commander of Tactical Group 1, did all these people
7 remain in the command staff?
8 A. No, not all of them remained until the end as
9 members of the command.
10 Q. Instead of telling me which ones left, maybe
11 what you could do is please tell me who was a member of
12 the command staff in addition to the persons you've
13 already mentioned during any time that Mr. Delalic was
15 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: If you have a particular
16 person in mind, ask him that person, who was there at
17 the time. If you want to use that -- it would be more
18 difficult to remember this pertinent information. It's
19 so long a time.
20 MS. McHENRY:
21 Q. Sir, do you not remember who the members of
22 the command staff were during the time that Mr. Delalic
23 functioned as the commander?
24 A. I have mentioned those people already.
25 During the Operation JUG, Selimovic was temporarily
1 transferred to TG-2, due to specific tasks. And if I
2 can recall it correctly, for a brief period of time the
3 typist was also temporarily -- for a brief period of
4 time we had Habiba Veladzic, but I'm not certain about
5 her last name. I don't think there were any additional
6 changes to that. I have mentioned already that
7 Zeka left, and instead of him we got Selimovic.
8 Q. You mentioned during your direct testimony a
9 Mr. Irfan. What was his function?
10 A. Irfan was a driver to the Commander Delalic,
11 and in addition to that he would also perform messenger
13 Q. And what is his last name? If you don't
14 know, that's fine. You can just say you don't know.
15 A. I'm not sure.
16 Q. And how about a Mr. Sultanovic or
17 Mr. Rizvanovic, were they members of the command staff
18 who may have been involved in communication issues?
19 A. Rizvanovic was one which was given to us for
20 additional help for a brief period of time, but I did
21 not see him as one of the members of our command.
22 Q. So there were people there who worked, in
23 effect, for the command, but were not officially
24 members of the command staff; is that correct?
25 A. There were individual cases, yes.
1 Q. Okay. Thank you. Now, if I understand you
2 correctly, sir, Mr. Delalic was appointed on the 27th
3 of July, he started functioning on the 30th of July,
4 and then you saw his appointment on the 8th of August.
5 Did I understand you correctly in all respects?
6 A. That is correct, and I have said that on the
7 27th I heard that he was appointed, but I did not see
8 the written document concerning his appointment until
9 the 8th of August.
10 Q. And, of course, when Mr. Delalic came on the
11 30th, you, given that it was a wartime situation, you
12 were waging a war, you and the others accepted
13 Mr. Delalic's authority without requiring written proof
14 of his authorisation; is that correct?
15 A. I followed the orders of my then commander,
16 Polutak Mustafa. If he says that Zejnil Delalic is
17 appointed to his post, then all I can say is, "Yes, I
18 understand, commander."
19 Q. And then could I just ask that the witness be
20 shown D146 again.
21 Sir, is this the document that you saw on the
22 8th of August, or was it another document?
23 A. This is the document that I saw on August
25 Q. And are you sure it was the 8th you saw it,
1 rather than some day following the 8th?
2 A. I saw it on the 8th.
3 Q. And in the copy, the Bosnian copy that's
4 there, it doesn't actually bear the signature of
5 President Izetbegovic. In the copy that you saw, on
6 the 8th of August, did it actually have the President's
8 A. Yes, there was.
9 Q. Now, sir, given the communication problems
10 between Sarajevo and the field, was it an extraordinary
11 event that on the same day that the President signed
12 the document, you would receive it in the field?
13 A. If you have followed my previous statements
14 concerning communications, I accentuated that there
15 were various situations. It would happen that
16 documents would arrive immediately or with a short or a
17 longer, somewhat longer delay. Specifically, if you
18 are interested in this document, I received it, or we
19 received it, rather, by fax in Mount Igman in the Hotel
20 Borik. That's why I could see it right away. And
21 through radio communication, having in mind that
22 Mr. Delalic had already taken over the duty of the
23 commander, and also having in mind the story that there
24 is a certain piece of paper appointing a commander of
25 all formations, which was, of course, questionable to
1 us, we insisted then to receive a definite order as
2 soon as possible, because this was a very responsible
3 command post.
4 Q. Well, can you just explain this a little
5 more, sir. You indicated previously that when
6 Mr. Polutak told you he was commander, and you accepted
7 it without requiring anything more, can you then just
8 explain how was it that you heard about this order for
9 all formations and who it was who insisted that there
10 be clarification? Were you yourself involved in
11 insisting that there be clarification?
12 A. That was not me. I would receive all the
13 information from the commander, Polutak, and what I
14 have just said was the case when I was present, and it
15 did not happen upon my initiative.
16 Q. Well, from whom did you hear that the
17 previous order had all units?
18 A. I was told that by Commander Polutak.
19 Q. Okay. And did Mr. Polutak indicate that --
20 well, let me just move on. And when was it that you
21 heard -- was it on the 30th of July that you heard
22 about this from Mr. Polutak?
23 A. I apologise. I do not understand the
25 Q. I'm sorry, sir. You indicate that it was
1 from Mr. Polutak that you heard that Mr. Delalic had
2 been appointed head of all formations, and I am asking
3 when was it that you received this information from
4 Mr. Polutak?
5 A. First of all, this was not all formations,
6 but all the armed forces, all the forces, which is not
7 Tactical Group 1. And I have heard that for the first
8 time around the 27th, as I have stated. Those were the
9 days when one could hear talk about it.
10 Q. And if you know, did Mr. Polutak see a copy
11 of Mr. Delalic's appointment, or do you know how
12 Mr. Polutak received his information?
13 A. He was appointed on the 8th of August. He
14 saw it personally.
15 Q. I'm sorry, sir. My question was: When,
16 around the 27th of July, you heard from Mr. Polutak
17 that Mr. Delalic had been named head of all armed
18 forces, do you know how Mr. Polutak had received that
19 information? For instance, do you know if Mr. Polutak
20 saw an appointment order dated the 27th of July?
21 A. I do not know that.
22 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: I think the transcript
23 reads he saw it personally. That was his answer to the
24 last question.
25 MS. McHENRY: Yes, Your Honour, but let me
1 clarify that, I think.
2 Q. Sir, when you say he saw it personally, are
3 you referring to the 27th of July document or to the
4 8th of August document?
5 A. I am speaking of the document dated August 8.
6 Q. And with respect to the document of the 8th
7 of August, how do you know that Mr. Polutak saw that
8 document? Was he still in the Tactical Group 1
9 headquarters at that time?
10 A. Yes, he was.
11 Q. So there was some period of time when both
12 Mr. Delalic and Mr. Polutak were functioning in the
13 Tactical Group 1 headquarters; is that correct?
14 JUDGE JAN: (No microphone)
15 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, Your Honour.
16 MS. McHENRY: I didn't say functioning as
17 commander, but just were present.
18 Q. Was there, between the time of the 30th of
19 July and the 8th of August, did Mr. Polutak remain in
20 the headquarters of Tactical Group 1, in any function?
21 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: -- is a fairly difficult
22 one. You mean he continuously was still a member of
23 the TG-1? That's the --
24 MS. McHENRY:
25 Q. Was he present in the headquarters between
1 30th of July, when Mr. Delalic took over, and the 8th
2 of August?
3 A. I have already said that once.
4 Q. Well, could you just explain it a little
5 more. Was he present all the time, some of the time, a
6 little bit of the time? Can you please just give me a
7 little -- so I can better understand what it was and
8 how frequently Mr. Polutak was there.
9 A. Mr. Polutak, to repeat, handed over the duty
10 on July 30th, 1992.
11 JUDGE JAN: Thereafter, what was he doing?
12 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, sir.
13 JUDGE JAN: Thereafter, what was he doing
14 there? He handed over the charge on the 30th of July
15 to Mr. Delalic. Thereafter he stayed longer, a little
16 longer, at the same station. What was he doing during
17 that period? This is what the lady wants to ask you.
18 A. Yes, it is clear to me. After handing over
19 the charge, commanders go to their separate duties. I
20 apologise if I was unclear.
21 MS. McHENRY:
22 Q. And what were Mr. Polutak's duties, after the
23 30th of July, such that he remained -- such that he was
24 present in the headquarters of Tactical Group 1?
25 MS. RESIDOVIC: Your Honours, I believe the
1 witness is being forced to give answers he does not --
2 would not be true --
3 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: (Microphone not on) I
4 think some understanding of the situation --
5 MS. RESIDOVIC: -- and there is an intentional
6 confusion created.
7 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: He was still present to
8 discuss appointments of Delalic of the 8th of August.
9 How come that situation? That's all she wants to
10 know. He had already moved to his new formation.
11 MS. McHENRY:
12 Q. Sir, do you understand my question?
13 A. I understand the question, but it seems you
14 do not understand me. I apologise. That was war a
15 situation. Commander Delalic was ordered to take over
16 the command in TG-1. Polutak is ordered to move to
17 another duty, and we -- and the front, that is combat,
18 cannot wait for the arrival of a piece of paper.
19 Q. Well, let me --
20 A. The paper arrives when possible, and through
21 other types of communication one can resolve such
22 issues. And this is what we were doing, the issues
23 that present a problem to you, seems to me.
24 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: I think, Ms. McHenry, we
25 have to break and reassemble at 2.30.
1 --- Luncheon Recess taken at 1:00 p.m.
2 --- On resuming at 2.35 p.m.
3 MR. OLUJIC: Permission to address Your
4 Honours. The problems and difficulties which have
5 appeared with calling of witnesses, my colleague is now
6 going to submit a document with respect to the solution
7 of the problem that we're all seeking.
8 We are still doubtful whether we can
9 accomplish the task. That is, be able to call any
10 witnesses, but we are working in good faith and Your
11 Honours can shortly expect a submission to be handed to
12 you through the registry.
13 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Your attempt, this
14 afternoon, your first efforts at dealing with the
15 victims and witnesses' unit at giving any of your
16 witnesses. Did you understand my observation? Whether
17 your attempt today is your first effort ever in getting
18 in touch with the victims and witnesses unit? Have you
19 spoke to your witnesses?
20 MR. OLUJIC: Yes, with the victims and
21 witnesses unit. However, we have been very active in
22 the field, trying to coordinate witness' schedules
23 because we believe that it would be in vain if we would
24 try to put together lists of witnesses for whom we do
25 not realistically expect to be able to respond and be
1 called in this particular time frame.
2 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: He is in the last stage
3 of his witnesses. As the last stage, the last week of
4 his witnesses and after that accused, then you come
5 next. You knew that. And Council for the second
6 accused knew that you're the next person to take over
7 in presenting your case. And you've made no efforts
8 until now.
9 It's not for the Trial Chamber to determine
10 for you to how to organise your Defence. That is
11 essentially the problem of the Council. Anybody
12 expected that right now you should have organised your
13 Defence. Because assistant with the progress of the
14 Defence of the first accused and to say that you are
15 just trying to present particulars for your witnesses,
16 it looks a little awkward.
17 MR. OLUJIC: Your Honours, with your
18 permission, let me also point out that this is a case
19 of multiple accused. Our own Defence is also based on
20 the witnesses who are being called by the first
21 accused. They may affect our Defence. We, therefore,
22 do not know exactly how many witnesses we need to
23 call. The Defence of the first accused has not been
24 completed and our strategy is being adjusted
25 accordingly. And this is a problem that arises with
1 any case in which there are multiple accused.
2 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: The Trial Chamber will
3 not repeat why we had the first status conference
4 before the Defence was to open its case. To enable you
5 to go about your defences and streamline them. That's
6 why we held the status conference.
7 We explained in the interest of the accused
8 persons how you should go about it. Instead, various
9 subterranean and open criticisms have come out of our
10 attempt to make life easier for everyone. In any
11 event, I think we'll carry on in the way we've chosen.
12 After the case of the first accused, which must close
13 next week, you have to take over. Let's have the
15 (The witness entered court)
16 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: You can take your seat,
18 THE WITNESS: Thank you.
19 THE REGISTRAR: I remind you, sir, that you
20 are still under oath.
21 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: You may proceed, Mrs.
23 MS. McHENRY: Thank you, Your Honours.
24 Q. Good afternoon, sir. Sir, just before the
25 lunch break, we were talking about your information
1 about various appointment orders given to Mr. Delalic.
2 Let me just try to clarify matters and try to ask some
3 questions that I hope will clarify the matter. Did I
4 understand correctly that between the 30th of July and
5 the 8th of August, Mr. Polutak was still present in the
6 headquarters of Tactical Group 1?
7 A. At a command post?
8 Q. No, in any function whatsoever.
9 A. He was not there.
10 Q. So, after the 30th of July, Mr. Polutak was
11 no longer physically present at the Tactical Group 1
12 headquarters, is that correct?
13 A. No.
14 Q. I'm sorry, does that mean it's incorrect
15 or --
16 JUDGE JAN: Maybe he was winding up until he
17 stayed on. Because you're confusing as functions or
18 command. Maybe he was not performing any function,
19 maybe he was not in command. But possibly he was
20 present, physically present, to wind up his affairs.
21 MS. McHENRY:
22 Q. Let me just ask that sir. After the 30th of
23 July, did Mr. Polutak, was he physically present in any
24 capacity whatsoever in the headquarters of Tactical
25 Group 1?
1 JUDGE JAN: You're again talking in a
2 capacity, maybe it was privately, to wind up affairs.
3 MS. McHENRY:
4 Q. Well, that would include in a private
6 A. He was not physically present at a command
7 post of the Tactical Group.
8 JUDGE JAN: We're not talking now about
9 command post. Was he physically present in some other
10 connection in the area where your command post is
11 located? Not at the command post. Maybe he was there
12 in connection with private affairs. She wants to find
13 out, was he physically present in the area on the day
14 of the 30th of July?
15 THE WITNESS: I did not see him.
16 MS. McHENRY:
17 Q. Well then I may have to go back over a few
18 questions, sir, because I believe there's been some
19 sort of --
20 A. Of course.
21 Q. -- miscommunication or you've remembered
22 things differently, I don't know. But my question is,
23 you indicated that after the 30th of July you learned
24 certain information from Mr. Polutak about Mr.
25 Delalic's authority, is that correct?
1 A. After 30th of July, I don't know what
2 information you are referring to. Can you please ask
3 me a specific question?
4 Q. Well, let me go back. You indicated that
5 there was some sort of issue or controversy, or
6 whatever you want to call it, about the scope of Mr.
7 Delalic's authority after the 30th of July, is that
9 MS. RESIDOVIC: Objection. The witness said
11 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Come out clearly with
12 what you want. If I guess rightly, you want to clear
13 the discrepancy between Delalic being commander of all
14 forces and the correction of that order. This is what
15 you want to do.
16 MS. McHENRY: I would like to hear what this
17 witness' explanation --
18 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Well, do it properly.
19 MS. McHENRY:
20 Q. Well, sir, how was it that you heard about
21 Mr. Delalic having been given authority over all
22 units? Who told you about that and when?
23 A. Around 27 July, and commander Polutak.
24 Q. And you indicated, if I understood you
25 correctly, that after that date there was some
1 discussion and it was decided that the supreme command
2 would be contacted about the issue. Did I understand
3 you correctly?
4 A. I did not want that, nor do I have such
5 authority, in other words the contact of the supreme
7 Q. Did any one, to your knowledge, contact the
8 supreme command about the issue?
9 A. I have no such knowledge. But commander
10 Polutak did receive an order from the superior command
11 to turn over the command to the new commander,
12 Delalic. Regardless of the misunderstanding which were
13 existing at the time and which relate to this phrase,
14 "Commander of All Forces." We as command were not
15 entirely clear and so we asked that it be spelled out
16 very precisely in a written form and not to specify all
17 forces, but rather to state directly that this would be
18 Tactical Group 1 because that was its proper name. And
19 I wish this were clear enough now.
20 Q. Well, I'm sorry, sir, I do have a few more
21 questions about it for you. Now, sir, do you know --
22 A. Go ahead.
23 Q. -- Mr. Polutak saw the order of the 27th of
24 July with the reference to all formations or all armed
1 MS. RESIDOVIC: Objection. The witness has
2 already answered this question before the recess.
3 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: What was his answer
4 then? What was his answer before the recess?
5 MS. RESIDOVIC: The transcript you can tell
6 that he said that he did not know whether Polutak saw
7 it or not.
8 MS. McHENRY:
9 Q. Well, let me ask you this, sir. If Mr.
10 Polutak informed you that Mr. Delalic had been given
11 authority over all armed units, do you know how Mr.
12 Polutak knew that Mr. Delalic had been given such
14 A. I don't know that.
15 Q. But you're sure that Mr. Polutak was aware of
16 it because he told you about it, correct?
17 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Why do you want him to
18 repeat what he has just said? So you want him to say
19 it again.
20 MS. McHENRY: Given the problems, I was going
21 to repeat a few things, but then let me just go
23 Q. Now, sir, you indicated that we decided that
24 we wanted some clarification of the authority given to
25 Mr. Delalic and I am asking you who the "we" was?
1 A. Command of the tactical group.
2 Q. Do you mean Mr. Polutak and yourself or do
3 you mean all members of the staff? Can you just be a
4 little more specific?
5 A. Not all members of the staff, but only the
6 inner circle of the staff.
7 Q. And who was part of the inner circle?
8 A. It was the deputy, that is the chief of
9 staff, which was myself and assistance for logistics
10 and for intelligence.
11 Q. And who was the assistant for intelligence?
12 A. It was Zeka, I mentioned him earlier.
13 JUDGE JAN: May I ask a question here?
14 MS. McHENRY: Certainly, of course.
15 JUDGE JAN: You're a chief of staff of TG-1
16 at the relevant time. After you received the order of
17 27th of July, what steps did you take to take to charge
18 over all the formations?
19 THE WITNESS: We did not -- that is, I did
20 not receive such an order.
21 JUDGE JAN: He being the chief of staff,
22 would have immediately taken steps to take charge of
23 all the formations, that's what I want. Because he was
24 the next man.
25 MS. McHENRY: That's right.
1 Q. Well, sir, after you were informed by Mr.
2 Polutak that Mr. Delalic had been given authority over
3 all armed forces, what steps were taken?
4 A. Polutak and Delalic conducted a transfer of
5 command of Tactical Group 1 based on the order of the
6 superior command.
7 Q. Well --
8 JUDGE JAN: Next question. Did you, in fact,
9 take charge of all the formations in the areas
10 mentioned in the order?
11 THE WITNESS: We did not.
12 MS. McHENRY:
13 Q. Well, okay. Sir, going back to the inner
14 circle, you indicated that the inner circle decided to
15 ask for clarification. I would assume that you would
16 agree with me that of the three members of the inner
17 circle, you were the most senior. And my question is,
18 did you, therefore, take any steps to obtain written
19 clarification of Mr. Delalic's authority?
20 JUDGE JAN: He's already said, it was not
21 within his authority to do that.
22 MS. McHENRY: Well, that's why I have asked
23 if he took any steps, even if he didn't.
24 Q. Well, sir, what was done to obtain
1 A. First, the other members of the command, and
2 I exclude the commander now, do not have the right of
3 decision taking. So we can only analyse, register and
4 propose. Commander takes decisions on it, the basis of
5 this. So it was only commander Polutak, that is the
6 previous commander was in position to take this
7 decisions or the new commander, that is Delalic.
8 Q. Sir, do you know, was any request or any step
9 whatsoever taken to receive clarification of what of
10 Mr. Delalic's 27th of July appoint?
11 A. I don't know that.
12 Q. So you would agree with me that you don't
13 know that the 8th of August order was in response to
14 any request for clarification of Mr. Delalic's
15 authority? Is that correct?
16 A. It was clear to us when we saw that order.
17 JUDGE JAN: The question is different. Do
18 you know that Mr. Delalic contacted the high command
19 for the clarification of this order?
20 THE WITNESS: I know that.
21 MS. McHENRY:
22 Q. And how do you know that, sir?
23 A. From conversation. He asked that through our
24 communications lines.
25 Q. And, tell me, were present and you could hear
1 him, is that correct?
2 A. I was not present at the time when he was in
4 Q. But Mr. Delalic told you himself that he had
5 requested clarification of his own authority, is that
7 A. That is not clarification that was not
8 questionable. The authority was clear. It was just
9 the designation of the command, was it TG-1 or what we
10 talked about, commander of all forces? Because
11 commander of all forces meant nothing to us as a
12 Tactical Group.
13 Q. Well, then, sir, did Mr. Delalic tell you
14 himself that he requested a further designation of
16 A. Not to designate it, the command has already
17 been designated.
18 Q. Well, sir, what you indicated that Mr.
19 Delalic -- well, you indicated that you learned that
20 the 8th of August order was made in response to some
21 question about Mr. Delalic's command or authority, is
22 that correct?
23 A. The only issue there was the name, whether a
24 commander, whether it would be the commander of TG-1 or
25 commander of all forces.
1 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Don't you think you need
2 another question, because I don't see the need to press
4 MS. McHENRY: Well, let me just put it.
5 Q. Sir, you would agree with me that you have no
6 information that the 8th of August --
7 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: I have asked you to move
8 to some other question.
9 MS. McHENRY: I will move on, then.
10 Q. Sir, the 8th of August order refers to, in
11 addition to Mr. Delalic, it refers to a Mr. Maric.
12 Maybe, in fact, I can ask that the document be shown to
13 the witness. Sir, are you aware of whether or not
14 there was any issue or question about the appointment
15 of Mr. Maric?
16 May I ask that the witness be shown D146,
17 which is the 8th of August document.
18 JUDGE JAN: You are supposed to ask him, does
19 he know Mr. Maric?
20 MS. McHENRY: Well, even if he didn't know
21 Mr. Maric personally, he might --
22 Q. Sir, do you know anything about why in the
23 same order there is also an appointment of a Mr. Maric?
24 A. I do not know that.
25 Q. Okay. Did Mr. Delalic, to your knowledge,
1 see the 8th of August document?
2 A. Yes, he did.
3 Q. Would you agree with me that frequently,
4 after military appointments had been made, President
5 Izetbegovic confirmed the appointments and then such
6 appointments were published in the Official Gazette?
7 Were you aware of that?
8 A. I don't know what the practice was during the
10 Q. Let me -- with respect to that document, it
11 refers, and you can look at it if you wish, it refers
12 to a -- that the order is being made pursuant to a
13 proposal from the Minister of Defence dated the 19th of
14 July. Do you know what proposal from the Minister of
15 Defence dated the 19th of July is referred to?
16 A. I do not know of it.
17 Q. Now, again, looking at that same document,
18 sir. There is a reference or the designation is for
19 the Tactical Group in the areas Hadzici, Pazaric,
20 Konjic and Jablanica. Now, I certainly understand your
21 testimony, that the Tactical Group was not superior to
22 these municipal areas, but if you can, what does this
23 reference to the municipalities refer to? Does it
24 refer to the zone of operations, does it refer to the
25 municipalities from which units came from? What does
1 this reference here refer to in these four
3 A. I understood that as a geographical
4 definition of an area or a direction.
5 Q. Was it the direction -- was it the area of
6 operations of the Tactical Group 1?
7 A. That was the general direction, if we take a
8 look at the entire period of activity of TG-1.
9 Q. But you would agree it's, according to your
10 testimony, it would not be an accurate description of
11 the area of operation in August of 1992, wouldn't you?
12 A. Could you please clarify to me in what way is
13 it illogical for it to be an area of operation?
14 Q. I am not asking you if it's illogical, sir.
15 I am just asking whether or not, in August of 1992, at
16 the time this order was made, is this a correct and
17 accurate description of the municipalities that were
18 the zone of operation of Tactical Group 1?
19 A. Specified here is only the line of
20 communication between Jablanica, Pazaric, Konjic,
21 Hadzici, and the areas within it are a wider region
22 that gravitates to that communication.
23 Q. So was Konjic one of the main lines of
24 communication for Tactical Group 1?
25 A. Communication, the main communication to
1 which this Tactical Group was tied to, went through
3 Q. And when you say "line of communication,"
4 what are you referring to? Can you just explain what
5 that means, "line of communication"?
6 A. When I say communication line, I mean the one
7 used for transport, that is roads and rails.
8 Q. Thank you. Now, may I ask now that the
9 witness be shown Prosecution Exhibit 230. And I am
10 finished with D146. Thank you. I'm sorry, can I --
11 thank you.
12 Sir, did you see this document in August of
14 A. Yes, I did.
15 Q. And does the original Bosnian version, does
16 it bear Mr. Delalic's signature? Do you recognise
17 whether or not that's Mr. Delalic's signature?
18 A. Yes, it is.
19 Q. Did Mr. Delalic have authorisation to make
20 the appointment reflected in this document?
21 A. He did have the authorities only, and in
22 light of finding temporary solutions to a specific
23 problem until the final appointment arrived, and if it
24 has to do with the emergency engagement of a certain
25 person or to conduct important tasks. And in this
1 particular case this is about a typist, an
2 administrative assistant, who, at the given moment, had
3 to take over a job of the typist who was at that place
4 before, and I have mentioned Ms. Kiba.
5 And if I may add, this needed to be done for
6 the document to become fully valid. So he had the
7 authority only in situations of temporary solutions, if
8 such a person was necessary for a conduct of combat
9 tasks and a superior command was unable for any reasons
10 to go through with that appointment. If I may, even
11 today we have such cases in which the first -- the
12 superior commander writes out a temporary appointment,
13 in the sense of appointing somebody to a function,
14 until the arrival of the final appointment authorised
15 by the superior command. This happens even now during
16 peacetime, and especially during the war.
17 JUDGE JAN: Surely, the commander can appoint
18 a typist without referring it to the high command.
19 A. It would be logical, but our superior command
20 appointed all the people, and that was a principle,
21 having in mind the nature of the Tactical Group as a
22 temporary formation, and it deals with tasks limited
23 within a period of time with specifically described
24 duties and tasks.
25 MS. McHENRY:
1 Q. Sir, do you know why a copy of that document
2 was sent to both the war presidency and the
3 headquarters of Konjic, of the TO Konjic?
4 A. I am not familiar with that.
5 Q. Okay. And let me refer you to the heading
6 there, where it says, "Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina
7 Armed Forces Supreme Command Staff Sarajevo, Tactical
8 Group 1." Was that the heading for all documents
9 emanating from Tactical Group 1?
10 A. In principle, this was done in a way that
11 they first mentioned a superior command and then the
12 subordinate command, and this has been put in a correct
13 way, having in mind the rule on official correspondence
14 which we inherited from the former JNA. But I would
15 not rule out the possibility of war documents which did
16 not have such a precisely defined heading of the
17 document. It all depended on people who do that, and
18 we did not have enough trained people who could put
19 through any document in a sufficiently precise manner.
20 Q. Turning to another matter, sir. Who took
21 over as deputy commander when you left in October?
22 A. I do not know that.
23 Q. So you did not turn your duties over to any
24 particular person; is that correct?
25 A. Yes, I did. I gave my duties over to the
1 Commander Zejnil Delalic.
2 Q. Okay. Now, you earlier spoke about some
3 problems with a gun and the municipal authorities in
4 Konjic. If I understood you correctly, these problems
5 started before Mr. Delalic began functioning as
6 commander of Tactical Group 1; is that correct?
7 A. Yes, it is.
8 Q. And the supreme command was aware of these
9 problems, weren't they?
10 A. Yes, they were aware.
11 Q. Now, during the time that Mr. Delalic was
12 commander of Tactical Group 1, in the time that you
13 were there, so from when he began functioning until you
14 left, approximately how many soldiers were subordinated
15 to Tactical Group 1?
16 A. There were several instances of subordination
17 because there were several attempts at lifting of the
18 Sarajevo siege in accordance with the task of the TG-1,
19 but the number of soldiers never went over 1,200 men.
20 Q. During the time that Mr. Delalic was
21 commander of Tactical Group 1, from what municipalities
22 did the units come from, as best you can remember?
23 A. I will try to remember. They came from
24 municipalities of Jablanica, Konjic, Hadzici, Kiseljak,
25 Ilidza, and there was one occasion where we had a unit
1 from Prozor, if I recall it correctly.
2 Q. And the units from Konjic, what kind of units
3 were they; in other words, from what entity, TO, MUP?
4 A. Those were all units that belonged to the TO,
5 and once we engaged a smaller unit of HOS, exactly at
6 the period of the Operation JUG, and they were engaged
7 in the ancillary area, in the area of Brdo Ormanj
8 towards Brdo Ostrig, and this is the left side of the
9 town of Hadzici.
10 Q. Can you just tell -- who are the HOS units?
11 When they weren't subordinated to Tactical Group 1, who
12 were they subordinated to, if they were not part of the
14 A. We then used the armed forces of
15 Bosnia-Herzegovina, and that was a wish of us Bosniaks,
16 to develop such an armed force. It evolved in a
17 completely different direction, but for a period of
18 time also the HVO units, as well as TO units and HOS
19 units, were within those armed forces.
20 Q. But my question is, if the HOS units were not
21 part of the TO, to whom were they subordinated, when
22 they weren't subordinated to Tactical Group 1?
23 A. To be honest, I do not know much about HOS
24 units, but they were supposed to be subordinate to the
25 supreme command of the armed forces of
1 Bosnia-Herzegovina, but, from my knowledge,
2 unfortunately, it never came completely true. That was
3 just an effort.
4 Q. Now, during the time that Mr. Delalic was
5 commander of Tactical Group 1, were any MUP units ever
6 subordinated to him?
7 A. No, they were not.
8 Q. And when I say subordinated to him, I mean
9 subordinated to Tactical Group 1. During the time
10 that Mr. Delalic was there, there were never any MUP
11 units --
12 A. Yes, it is clear to me.
13 Q. Now, during the time that Mr. Delalic was
14 commander of Tactical Group 1, did Tactical Group 1
15 have any military police, either its own military
16 police or military police units that had been
17 subordinated to it?
18 A. No, it did not have.
19 Q. At any time during the existence of Tactical
20 Group 1, were prisoners captured?
21 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: I'm sure these are all
22 questions which have been asked and answered in direct
24 JUDGE JAN: You asked this question --
25 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, Your Honour.
1 JUDGE JAN: You asked Mr. Polutak about it,
2 and he answered in the negative.
3 MS. McHENRY: But --
4 JUDGE JAN: We are dealing here with
5 prisoners who were detained or arrested when
6 Mr. Polutak was TG-1 commander.
7 MS. McHENRY: Let me clarify.
8 Q. During the time that Mr. Delalic was
9 functioning as Tactical Group 1 commander, were any
10 prisoners ever captured during Tactical Group 1
12 A. No, there were never.
13 Q. Now, sir, you stated in direct that Tactical
14 Group 1 had no authority to discipline the soldiers
15 that were under its command. You would agree with me
16 that there's no regulation or written order which
17 states that Tactical Group do not have authority to
18 discipline soldiers under their command?
19 A. The general principles of organising an
20 engagement of Tactical Groups, it is clearly stated
21 that authorities of the command of a Tactical Group are
22 not to discipline anybody, but they have the right, in
23 relation to individuals or groups who are engaged in
24 misconduct or do not fulfil the tasks, to return them
25 to their parent units and to propose to their command
1 to discipline them. That was the only thing that a TG
2 command could do concerning this.
3 Q. Do you agree with me that within the
4 regulations of the Bosnian Army, and within the orders
5 made by the supreme command of the Bosnian Army, that
6 was never stated in writing?
7 A. It is stated in rules that we abided by.
8 These are rules in textbooks inherited from the former
9 JNA, because at that time we did not have any other,
10 and there it is clearly defined concerning the
11 authorities of a Tactical Group.
12 Q. Were there ever exceptional circumstances,
13 such as, if immediate action was required, or if no
14 other entity was available, to punish a soldier?
15 A. No, there were not such circumstances, and we
16 did not have the right to do it, regardless of
17 circumstances. But their commanders would always
18 monitor, especially if we talk about important combat
19 activities, they would always monitor the conduct of
20 their units and gave help, if necessary.
21 Q. Now, I am going to ask that the witness be
22 shown D145/A/5/D-41, which is 815 and 816 shown to him
23 during direct.
24 Now, sir, this is the 24th of August
25 document, and you indicated that you were present at
1 the time that Mr. Delalic communicated with the supreme
2 command. Do you remember that?
3 A. I was present when he was drafting the
4 document, and I knew what it was about.
5 Q. Do I understand, then, that during the actual
6 communication between Mr. Delalic and the supreme
7 command, you were not present and don't have personal
8 knowledge of what was said?
9 A. I was present during the communication. This
10 was done through radio communication, which was only a
11 communication link at that moment. I remember that he
12 reacted because he had more important things to do at
13 that moment, and then I said, "Well, Commander, sir, we
14 should aid, regardless of the circumstances."
15 Q. Who was it in the supreme -- who was it in
16 the supreme command that Mr. Delalic was communicating
18 A. I don't know. I never asked him.
19 Q. So do I understand, you were not present in
20 the beginning part of the conversation when the persons
21 would have identified themselves; is that correct?
22 A. I was present at that location where it was
23 being drafted, but at that time I was not paying
24 attention who it was concerned. Maybe I knew who the
25 person was, but I did not inquire.
1 Q. Now, let me -- you indicated that Mr. Delalic
2 was asked to transmit certain orders and that
3 Mr. Delalic also sketched some other things that were
4 on his mind. Do you remember that, when he was
5 dictating this order?
6 A. Yes, I remember that.
7 Q. And what, to the extent that you yourself
8 heard it, what parts did the supreme command ask him to
9 transmit orders about? In other words, I am asking
10 you, what were the things that Mr. Delalic was
11 specifically asked to do by the supreme command, and
12 what were the things that Mr. Delalic had on his mind,
13 without being given instructions by the supreme
15 A. I don't know with whom he was communicating
16 at that time, but he just said the supreme command,
17 which at that time was called main staff. He told me
18 what this was concerning, and in passing he also told
19 me, "I'm going to write this down and I am going to
20 send it off quickly, and you go up there and help out,"
21 because during this time we had combat operations in
22 progress. We were on a plateau which was sheltered --
23 it was a cover, and the observation post, which we
24 used, was out front where certain number of officers
25 were positioned and they were monitoring the
2 Q. Did you, yourself, hear anything said by the
3 supreme command to Mr. Delalic? If "yes," please tell
4 me what you heard. If "no," please just state that.
5 Did you yourself hear anything the supreme command said
6 to Mr. Delalic on this occasion?
7 A. This part of paragraph 1, he mentioned that
8 succinctly. He said; "they're asking of me to transmit
9 to the municipal staff of the Konjic defence to take
10 written statements from these prisoners at Celebici."
11 But as he had said; "I am also going to include the
12 things that concern our combat activities, so that I
13 would not have to draft a separate document." And that
14 was the extent to which we were able to communicate at
15 that moment. After that, I went to see how the
16 officers at the observation post were doing concerning
17 the artillery attacks.
18 Q. Sir, do I understand that you, yourself, did
19 not hear anything that the supreme command said and
20 your information comes from what Mr. Delalic told you,
21 is that correct?
22 A. I did not hear anything directly because he
23 had said of the radio transmitter and we did not have
24 additional speakers or something so that I could listen
25 in. There were some other issues which they talked to
1 him about which concerned the conduct of combat
2 operations and I recall that it was that they talked
3 about certain larger losses which we had in the Krupac
4 area and he was -- okay, sorry.
5 Q. Thank you. Sir, in this order, there's a
6 discussion that the investigative military body should
7 provide a copy of their report to this command. Was
8 such a report ever submitted to the command or you just
9 don't know?
10 A. Excuse me, which command?
11 Q. Well, let me just ask you another way. Do
12 you know what if anything was done, either by the
13 municipal TO or by Mr. Delalic after this order of the
14 24th of August?
15 A. Delalic took no steps in that regard as far
16 as I know. And our command received no report
17 concerning this activity.
18 Q. Now, sir, you already stated that you, at the
19 time, were unaware of the 28th of August document from
20 Mr. Delalic to the commander of the Celebici prison, so
21 I won't ask you about that. But, there's a reference
22 to a particular written order from the supreme command
23 headquarters and I am asking you, with respect to
24 Celebici prison, did you ever see any written order
25 from the supreme command?
1 A. I really did not see one.
2 Q. Thank you. Now, sir, you would agree with me
3 that lifting the siege of Sarajevo was, in 1992, the
4 most important military task for the Bosnian army?
5 A. I agree.
6 Q. And because of that, the supreme command
7 obviously wanted to ensure that the Tactical Groups had
8 the means to be effective?
9 A. It did everything they could.
10 Q. And that included when it was seen that there
11 was a need for it, authorisation for the Tactical Group
12 commanders to issue orders to municipal headquarters
13 about intelligence matters? Is that correct? I think
14 you've already testified to this effect, I am just
15 making sure that I am correct.
16 A. I saw that document and I stated that it
17 followed all the events relating, all the events that
18 took place and they relate to the intelligence
19 information and the information that followed which
20 spelled out and asked of everyone to step up their
22 Q. I don't want to cut you off, but I think you
23 explained this in direct. So now I am asking you just
24 a very specific question. It is correct that because
25 of the need, which you've already explained, the
1 supreme command authorised the Tactical Group
2 commanders to issue orders to municipal headquarters
3 about intelligence matters? That's correct, isn't it?
4 A. I consider this order too as a transmission
5 of an order that is a notice on the part of the supreme
6 command, even though the intelligence work is very
7 unique and extremely important for the preparations for
8 the following attempts at lifting of the siege that is
9 for the further tasks of tactical groups.
10 Q. Let me just clarify then. It's your opinion
11 that because of the prior directives from the supreme
12 command about intelligence orders, any further orders
13 by the tactical group commanders about intelligence
14 matters, all of such orders, were, in effect,
15 transmission orders, is that correct?
16 A. May I ask you to ask me a very specific
18 Q. Fair enough, sir. You indicated in your
19 direct that after a particular incident where Mr. Catic
20 was hurt, there was a directive from the municipal
21 headquarters to cooperate with tactical group
22 commanders about intelligence matters, is that
24 A. This was a standing task of the municipal
25 defence staffs because Tactical Group 1, as well as all
1 the other groups, of course, was an exclusively combat
2 unit and --
3 Q. I just, if I understand you correctly, there
4 was, in effect, a standing obligation on municipal
5 headquarters to cooperate with Tactical Groups about
6 intelligence matters. And under this standing
7 obligation, Tactical Group commanders had authority to
8 issue orders to municipal headquarters about
9 intelligence matters? Is that correct?
10 A. Direct orders in a sense of command and
11 control, they did not have. But, they had a
12 possibility to notify, to request. However, taken into
13 account that before this order, which was transmitted,
14 a directive was issued, a directive on intelligence
15 activity in the area of the front lines so that this
16 order too, as well as the previous orders which we have
17 been explaining here, are transmission orders from the
18 superior command to the municipal defence staffs.
19 Q. Sir, let me move on. Now you're aware that
20 as part of the continuing efforts to lift the siege of
21 Sarajevo, when the JUG operation commenced, the JUG
22 commander was given authority by the supreme command to
23 determine for itself what units from various
24 municipalities would be used? Were you aware of that?
25 A. I was not aware of it.
1 Q. Now, you would agree with me that the supreme
2 command could give a tactical group commander
3 additional tasks?
4 A. Regarding intelligence support.
5 Q. Now, sir, you would agree with me that the
6 supreme command had authority to give a tactical group
7 commander any task that the supreme command wished to
8 give? Would you disagree with that?
9 A. Yes, he could.
10 Q. And are you aware, for instance, of a
11 well-known occasion in the fall of 1992 when the
12 supreme command tasked Mr. Delalic with the matter
13 involving the arrest of Juka Prazina, Bosnia military
14 commander? Were you aware of that?
15 A. I don't know anything about that.
16 Q. You never heard anything about Juka Prazina
17 being arrested in the fall of 1992?
18 A. I heard it in conversation that he was
19 arrested. But by whom or why, that I do not know.
20 Q. Do you know where Mr. Prazina was imprisoned
21 after he was arrested?
22 A. I do not know, and I would request that you
23 do not ask me any questions about the Prasina case
24 because I do not know anything about it.
25 Q. Fair enough, sir. Now, sir, I assume at the
1 time -- well, I assume that given your position as
2 deputy commander in the urgent combat activities that
3 were going on, it was not unusual for Mr. Delalic to
4 have communication with the supreme command without you
5 knowing exactly the nature of the communication? Did
6 you know the nature of every communication between Mr.
7 Delalic and the supreme command?
8 A. I believe that I knew everything that
9 concerned the activity of the Tactical Group 1. But a
10 commander always reserves the right to communicate to
11 his subordinates the things that he chooses to
13 MS. McHENRY: Thank you very much, sir.
14 Thank you, Your Honours, no further questions.
15 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Thank you very much. Is
16 there any re-examination?
17 Re-examined by Ms. Residovic:
18 Q. Colonel, I only have two questions for you.
19 First, you said at it one point a HOS unit was
20 subordinated to the Tactical Group 1 at one point and
21 you also indicated where it was located. Can you just
22 clarify, for what period of time was this unit
23 subordinated to Tactical Group 1?
24 A. I do not know the exact number of days, but
25 it was a short engagement of this unit during the
1 Operation JUG.
2 Q. With respect to the question, "which units
3 from the wider area of your activity were subordinated
4 to a tactical group?" I only want to ask you whether
5 in the course of the Operation JUG, the units from
6 Konjic and Jablanica were subordinated to your tactical
8 A. They were not.
9 MS. RESIDOVIC: Thank you, no further
10 questions, Your Honours.
11 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Thank you very much,
12 Colonel. We're very grateful for your assistance.
13 THE WITNESS: You're welcome.
14 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: And this is the end of
15 your testimony, you are discharged. Can we have your
16 next witness, please?
17 (The witness withdrew)
18 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: May we have the next
19 witness, please.
20 MS. RESIDOVIC: (No translation).
21 THE INTERPRETER: Could the counsel please
22 repeat? The microphone was not on.
23 MS. McHENRY: Your Honour, may I just ask for
24 clarification from the registrar. Prosecution Exhibit
25 230, has that been admitted? It's the appointment
1 order of the typist that the witness recognised. And I
2 believe it's already been admitted, but if not, I would
3 request that it be admitted.
4 THE REGISTRAR: It has not been tendered.
5 MS. McHENRY: Your Honour, at this time, I
6 would tender Prosecution Exhibit 230. I'm sorry that I
7 didn't do it before.
8 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Through who are you
9 tendering it? The witness is not here. It doesn't
10 really matter.
11 JUDGE JAN: The commander making the point
12 that it was his own typist for a temporary period. How
13 is it really relevant? How does it shed any light on
14 the command responsibility of Zejnil Delalic?
15 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Or that he can appoint
16 very good staff or he may not.
17 JUDGE JAN: If you read the appointment to
18 assist in the administrative tasks.
19 MS. McHENRY: Well, among other things, Your
20 Honours, it would be relevant because it refers to the
21 basis for Mr. Delalic's authority.
22 JUDGE JAN: He had the authority to appoint
23 his own typist. Admittedly he was a commander.
24 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Would you please invite
25 the witness.
1 MS. RESIDOVIC: I call Mr. Ekrem Milic.
2 (The witness entered court)
3 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Please swear the
5 THE WITNESS: I solemnly declare that I will
6 speak the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the
8 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: You may take your seat,
10 WITNESS: EKREM MILIC
11 Examined by Ms. Residovic:
12 Q. Good afternoon, sir, will you please just
13 pull up your chair a little bit so we can hear you
14 better. Thank you. Sir, will you please introduce
15 yourself by stating to the Court your full name?
16 A. I am Ekrem Milic, son of Emin Milic and my
17 mother is Hajrija Isanovic.
18 Q. Thank you, sir. Mr. Milic, will you tell me
19 where and when you were born?
20 A. I was born on 8 January 1959 in the Rogatica
21 municipality in Eastern Bosnia.
22 Q. What is your ethnic group and your
23 citizenship, sir?
24 A. I am a Bosniak and a citizen of
1 Q. Mr. Milic, I want to personally thank you
2 even though you were not scheduled for this week, that
3 you were able to adjust your schedule so that you could
4 appear before this Tribunal. Mr. Milic, what is your
6 A. For 17 years I have been a journalist.
7 Q. What was your education and where did you
8 receive it?
9 A. I received all my education in Sarajevo,
10 primary school, the high school and I studied at the
11 school for political science at university and I
12 majored in sociology. And I also have courses in
13 philosophy at the school of philosophy of literature
14 and several Croatian languages as it was called at that
15 time. Or several Croatian or Croat-Serb languages.
16 Q. Thank you, sir. Mr. Milic, can you tell me
17 where you worked until April 6th, 1992? And what was
18 your profession at the time?
19 A. Let me first answer the second part of the
20 question. I was a journalist. Officially my official
21 position was a correspondent for a news organisation
22 from Belgrade called Borba, which had about six or
23 seven different editions, both daily newspapers and
24 magazines. I also worked for several media outlets in
25 Bosnia-Herzegovina on a freelance basis.
1 Q. Thank you, Mr. Milic, I believe that
2 elucidates your professional involvement officially.
3 Mr. Milic, can you now tell me something that is of
4 interest for us here, where were you between April 1992
5 and April 1993? If you can just sketch it out for us
6 so that we can lay the foundation for the next few
7 questions that I am going to ask of you.
8 A. I was in Innsbruck, Austria, at the time of
9 the aggression against my country. And believing that
10 all this was going to end very quickly, I returned to
11 Belgrade with a plan to then go, continue on to
12 Sarajevo. And then when I realised that this was not
13 to be, I turned around and went back to Austria and
14 from there to Croatia to a town called Funtana. It's a
15 small town near Porec in the Istria Region.
16 Q. Mr. Milic, I indicated a longer period of
17 time for you. When you went to Croatia, did you spend
18 all this time in Croatia?
19 A. Yes, this was in the latter part of April of
20 '92 and I stayed in Croatia as a refugee all the way
21 up to June of 1993.
22 Q. You just answered my next question. You were
23 a refugee. Mr. Milic, during your stay in Croatia,
24 were you able to pursue your profession, either on a
25 regular or occasional basis, that is, to work as a
2 A. As you know, a journalist never stays still.
3 I actively pursued it on my own for my own sake. I did
4 a lot of research and I followed events, but I did not
5 have any professional involvement in Croatia and that
6 is I could not even try to get one. I believe that
7 it's very clear what the situation was.
8 Q. Yes, Mr. Milic I am just waiting for the
9 interpretation, not because I am not clear about what
10 you were saying. Can you now tell me whether in the
11 period while you were in Croatia, which was April,
12 1992, and as you just specified up until about June of
13 1993, did you ever during that period go to Konjic or
14 to Sarajevo through Konjic?
15 A. That was my desire, but, unfortunately, I did
16 not. It was not viable.
17 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: The Trial Chamber will
18 rise now and resume at 4.30 p.m.
19 --- Recess taken at 4.00 p.m.
20 --- On resuming at 4.30 p.m.
21 (The witness entered court)
22 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Mrs. Residovic, you may
23 proceed with your witness.
24 THE REGISTRAR: I remind you, sir, that you
25 are still under oath.
1 Q. Mr. Milic, to my last question before the
2 break you answered that in 1992 you did not visit
3 Konjic, Sarajevo or Bosnia-Herzegovina, but I would ask
4 you, did you still, as a citizen of Bosnia-Herzegovina,
5 follow what was going on in that country?
6 A. Yes, to a large extent.
7 Q. Can you tell us in which way you were doing
9 A. I was listening to the radio all the time,
10 changing stations repeatedly, meaning that during the
11 evening I was able to get the signal of the BiH Radio.
12 I also followed a programme of the Croatian radio and
13 television, and during the evenings I tried to get the
14 signal of Radio Belgrade, which was at times possible
15 in Croatia, and also the press.
16 Q. Thank you. I think that would be enough.
17 Since you have told us where you were as a refugee, did
18 you during that period go to Zagreb and did you meet
19 with people from Bosnia-Herzegovina?
20 A. Yes, I did, starting with May, 1992, because
21 in Zagreb we had the best organised detention centre --
22 I'm sorry, collection centre for the citizens of
24 Q. As a journalist and a human being, you can
25 tell us about that period in 1992, and you could assess
1 on what the standpoint of the Croatian media was
2 towards the war in Bosnia-Herzegovina. So can you tell
3 us how you saw all those informations in the Croatian
5 A. Professionally speaking, I think this was a
6 period of truthful reporting by the Croatian media,
7 that is, April and May, 1992.
8 Q. Did you, at any moment, feel the change in
9 reporting of the Croatian media towards the things in
11 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: What type of evidence do
12 you want this witness to give? Go straight into what
13 you want him to say, because I don't think any of this
14 is relevant to what you are doing here.
15 JUDGE JAN: What propaganda was going on
16 against your client and what steps he took to counter,
17 instead of going into all of that. It's not necessary
18 for us.
19 MS. RESIDOVIC:
20 Q. Mr. Milic, I believe we were warned by the
21 Chamber, in full right, because we should skip over
22 things that the Chamber already better knows. On this
23 change of tone of the Croatian media, do you have any
24 knowledge that there was a certain propaganda directed
25 against Mr. Delalic. But prior to your answer, first
1 of all, did you know Mr. Delalic in 1992?
2 A. No, I did not know him.
3 Q. Did you see Delalic's name in Croatian media,
4 and at what time and, also, if you did, what was the
6 A. I registered the appearance of that name for
7 the first time during the combat operation which was
8 aimed at lifting of siege of Sarajevo. I think it was
9 called JUG 1992. Until then, I wasn't even paying that
10 much attention. There were mainly reports on successes
11 of our troops around Konjic and so on, Mostar, Duvavo,
12 Livno, front line.
13 Q. Thank you. When you were following
14 information, was this news of Mr. Delalic done in the
15 negative or a positive way?
16 A. I would say neither. It was impartial.
17 Normal I would call it.
18 Q. I apologise to you and to the Chamber,
19 because I can see you are following the interpretation,
20 so you stop in the middle of a thought. I forgot at
21 the beginning to warn you to monitor or to follow the
22 interpretation in the headphones, because we have
23 simultaneous interpreters interpreting what we are
24 saying. So, please, can you speak, speak slowly, and
25 you need not pay attention to the sound and wait for it
1 to interrupt you. But, please, wait with your answer
2 until the interpretation of my question is over.
3 Do you understand me?
4 A. Yes, I do. And I will try to do that.
5 Q. I apologise again for not mentioning this
7 Mr. Milic, did you, in May, 1992, watch a
8 Croatian programme under the title "Slikom na Sliku"?
9 A. This programme had a very large audience in
10 Croatia. It was on regularly, on a weekly basis. I
11 did not see all of it. Some of them I saw later on
12 through certain video recordings.
13 Q. Mr. Milic, at the time when the programme was
14 shown in May, 1992, did you see the particular one
15 which had Mr. Delalic as a guest?
16 A. Unfortunately, not in its direct
18 Q. Mr. Milic, did you ever in Croatia meet any
19 of the brothers of Mr. Delalic?
20 A. Yes, I did. That was at the beginning of
21 1993, and within a period of three or four months I met
22 three of his brothers.
23 Q. What was the reason for you meeting the first
24 brother, and can you tell us the name of this brother
25 you met in Zagreb?
1 A. First contact with one of his brothers was
2 through Mr. Vejsil Mujkanovic. That was at the
3 beginning of 1993. And we met after I expressed my
4 desire to take a more active role in the work of the
5 Bosnian crisis centre in Zagreb, trying to give my own
6 contribution to preventing or stopping, giving an end
7 to a campaign which was stepping up in the area of
8 Konjic, where the members of the TO and the BiH Army
9 issued significant successes on front line. But, in
10 Croatia the propaganda already took on a negative
12 Q. I had been warned that the name of the person
13 mentioned was not put in the transcript was Vejsil, but
14 since we are going to mention this brother again, we
15 need to clarify it right now. If I understood you
16 correctly, in that crisis centre for Bosniaks you
17 wished to work as a journalist to counter influence to
18 the propaganda. Did you then learn that his brother
19 Vejsil was looking for somebody in that capacity to try
20 to stop -- give an end to that campaign against
21 Mr. Delalic?
22 A. Yes, after I had a talk with the secretary,
23 Mujkanovic Mohamed was his name, and through our
24 conversations and feel we had about the things going
25 on, as well as my desire to bring the true situation of
1 Konjic into light of day.
2 Q. You said you knew the late Vejsil. Without
3 going into further detail, Mr. Mikamic Mohamed, did he
4 enable you to get in contact with Zejnil Delalic's
6 A. Yes, and we did that.
7 Q. What did you learn from Vejsil on that first
8 meeting? What did he inform you about, and what did he
9 wish you to do?
10 A. See he had authentic information and correct
11 ones. He wanted a denial concerning the campaign that
12 was going on.
13 Q. Did Vejsil tell you that he maybe himself
14 tried to do something in connection with the campaign?
15 A. There were no specific conversation about
16 that, but he wished at any cost for the truth to be
17 brought out. Of course, then I suggested that we
18 should gather people who have quality and reliable
19 informations to organise a press conference, and
20 collect video recordings, if possible, unify that,
21 present it to both Bosnia-Herzegovina, population in
22 Croatia, to the Croatian journalists, as well as to
23 foreign journalists accredited in Croatia.
24 Q. I know, Mr. Milic, that you are not a
25 psychiatrist, but a journalist, but when you spoke with
1 Vejsil, did you notice a worry or anxiety in him, or
2 was that a normal conversation which required your
3 usual social manners?
4 A. He was very anxious. He was afraid for his
5 relatives in Bosnia-Herzegovina, and his own life in
6 Zagreb, because that was literally the time of
7 lynchings. There was a campaign against the Delalic
9 Q. Mr. Milic, during that conversation with
10 Mr. Vejsil Delalic, did he say anything to you about
11 Zejnil Delalic's reaction to this campaign, because in
12 its entirety it referred to him?
13 A. He also had his crisis, moments of crisis,
14 according to Vejsil's statements.
15 Q. You said that you wanted to collect data
16 about the events, because you were not a direct
17 participant. Did Vejsil, in connection to that, tell
18 you that you should meet with somebody from Vienna, or
19 did he maybe direct you to somebody else who could give
20 you such information?
21 A. After my suggestion, after I asked for the
22 procedure of collecting as much data as possible,
23 tapes, videotapes, Vejsil promised that he would see to
24 it, and that he would find me associates or co-speakers
25 who could tell me the real truth about it.
1 Q. Mr. Milic, did he fulfil the promise given to
2 you? Did you meet with somebody?
3 A. Yes, relatively quickly. A brief period of
5 Q. Can you tell the Chamber who did you meet
6 with and where?
7 A. I met a man with the last name of Ciso, came
8 from Vienna, or maybe that was his nickname. We were
9 together for several hours. We spoke. I told them my
10 opinion, what needed to be done, and insisted on the
11 speed of going forward, but I also had a precondition
12 that I receive all the information in Zagreb.
13 Q. Mr. Milic, did you receive information you
14 requested, and who brought it to you?
15 A. It was brought by Ciso and Dzemal Delalic,
16 another brother to Zejnil, who was supposed to have
17 come earlier in mid January, but he did not have the
18 Croatian passport. And then at the end of January I
19 received about 20 to 30 videotapes.
20 Q. Mr. Milic, since the issue here was of
21 propaganda and the newspapers, did you collect articles
22 published about Mr. Delalic at that time?
23 A. I would usually receive them from Vejsil,
24 because he was collecting it.
25 Q. If you could put it briefly. What was --
1 what were the articles saying of Zejnil? Before I give
2 my interpretation of the text, I hope you will not
3 interpret all of them, and I am just asking you to
4 briefly tell us what it was about. I believe you
5 understood me, so would you please tell me what you
6 found necessary to say to the Chamber before your
7 answer to my question.
8 A. My opinion was that it was an orchestrated
9 campaign which was thoroughly planned, directed against
10 Zejnil Delalic and Konjic in general.
11 Q. When you said this introductory part, what
12 did the press release say? Can you cite a few
13 sentences? How did the press make Mr. Delalic look
14 like, if you can remember? How did it portray him?
15 A. I would divide that into three categories:
16 Co-operation with the Serbs, and at the same time a KOS
17 associate being proclaimed a Serb spy; activities
18 directed towards creation of an unfavourable climate in
19 order to strain relations between Bosnia and Croatians;
20 and then, finally, the third, and the most serious
21 category, is lie.
22 I would quote their term from the press,
23 referring to the escape of the -- by using the Chetnik
24 helicopter to the Serb territory, which was
25 absolutely untrue.
1 Q. Was his treatment of Serb prisoners also
2 mentioned in the media at that time, if you can recall?
3 A. Yes. It was a somewhat funny and absurd
4 situation, but presented very skilfully in terms of
5 propaganda. At that time Zejnil Delalic was releasing
6 Serbs from the prison and the camp, even though I know
7 that he was not in a position that he could do that.
8 Q. Mr. Milic, after Ciso and Dzemal Delalic
9 brought you 20 or 30 cassettes, as you put it, did you
10 review those cassettes and did you do something about
12 A. At the same day I sort of sped through them,
13 fast forwarding, just so that I could find out what
14 material was there, what was available.
15 Q. So, Mr. Milic, after this speedy review, as
16 you put it, of the material, did you see whether this
17 material referred to Zejnil Delalic or to something
19 A. No, the material in general was about the
20 events in the area between Konjic and the attempt to
21 lift the siege of Sarajevo. For certain operations
22 different material was used. That is, footage from
23 Croatian television, footage from Serb television,
24 footage from the Bosnian television and footage of the
25 local Konjic television. And some footage from private
1 sources, obviously of amateur type.
2 Q. Mr. Milic, did you know who owned the
3 cassettes which were brought to you?
4 A. Can I ask you --
5 Q. It is not usual that the witness should ask
6 questions, but what do you have in mind?
7 A. Just for clarification purposes in terms of
8 the ownership. Ownership in terms of copyright or in
9 terms of the possession of it?
10 Q. I am asking you what you knew in 1992, to
11 whom did the cassettes belong? Who was the proprietor
12 of these cassettes?
13 A. To me, they were the property of Dzemal
14 Delalic, Ciso. I cannot recall his first name. And
15 the authors, that is copyright belonged to all these
16 television outfits which I have just mentioned.
17 Q. Mr. Milic, having reviewed all the material,
18 speedily as you testified before this Tribunal, what
19 did you do with it or did you do anything with it?
20 A. My first reaction was that all these needed
21 to be called, shortened and edited into one or two
22 working cassettes, after which I would make or edit the
23 final cassette or tape. And the idea was that this
24 should be a documentary feature of sorts.
25 Q. Yes. Given the idea that you just explained
1 to us, did you at some time obtain what you wanted? In
2 other words, did you obtain a reduced tape, reduced
3 video material and who did you get it from?
4 A. I obtained it about maybe 15 days after that
5 initial conversation. Ciso and either Dzemal or the
6 late Sefik. I believe that it was Ciso and the late
7 Sefik who brought me these two tapes.
8 Q. Very well. Was that the end of your work or
9 did you start working with this material as a
11 A. That was the time when I started. I reviewed
12 it very carefully, analysed what needed to be
13 highlighted, create a script. It is to create and
14 edit, it is an editing script. That is what excerpts
15 were going to be put together in what order.
16 It took me five to seven days of thorough and
17 intense work. And in the end, I put together my own
18 commentary and the script for this final product which
19 was to be presented at the press conference.
20 Q. Mr. Milic, if I understood you correctly, you
21 now had video material previously from what Vejsil
22 Delalic brought you and you, yourself, were able to get
23 some articles from the Croatian press. But my question
24 is, when you met with Vejsil, Sefik and Dzemal Delalic,
25 did you learn other details and do you know whether
1 some of them were also participants in the events in
2 Konjic in 1992?
3 A. Ciso went there several times. Dzemal stayed
4 there for a longer periods of time. And Sefik, the
5 late Sefik as a volunteer, spent several months in
6 different areas of Bosnia, but travelling around. I
7 think it was because he was involved in logistics. In
8 fact, I know that he was.
9 Q. Very well. So you had different sources of
10 information for these events, media, videotapes and
11 testimonies some of the participants of the events in
12 Konjic. Did you then say to Ciso and Sefik what your
13 intention was? You told us that you were supposed to
14 do the editing script and so on, but were you supposed
15 to report to Zejnil's brothers on what you were
16 supposed to do with it?
17 A. I asked him and I was disappointed by what I
18 got. Zejnil was completely unaware of what we were
19 engaged in.
20 Q. Mr. Milic, even though you realise that
21 Zejnil was not aware of what you were engaged in, did
22 you compile a script which was to counter the
23 propaganda or some other material that you intended to
24 present at this press conference?
25 A. Yes, I compiled a script and I also gave
1 suggestions as to the way in which those two raw
2 videotapes certain excerpts be shortened further and be
3 arranged so that they are in accord with my script.
4 And I suggested it should not last more than, or run
5 more than 60 to 80 minutes.
6 Q. Was this cassette put together in Zagreb and
7 were you present when it was edited based on the
8 suggestions that you've given by Zejnil's brothers and
9 other persons involved?
10 A. No, the cassette was not put together in
11 Zagreb. These cassettes were edited and produced in
13 Q. Mr. Milic, you just said that you produced
14 this editing script. That you gave suggestions, such
15 as that the running time not exceed 60 to 80 minutes if
16 I understood you correctly. Did you eventually receive
17 a copy of the cassette based on the instructions which
18 were suggested?
19 A. Yes, I did.
20 Q. Can you tell me, did you view this cassette
21 and were you satisfied with the work that was done?
22 A. Yes, I did review the cassette personally. I
23 expected that it would be done better and in a more
24 professional way. There were many imperfections there,
25 both in terms of just bad editing to blatantly bad
1 audio. That is, speaker's voice.
2 Q. Mr. Milic, regardless of the fact that it was
3 poorly edited and poorly read, was the material which
4 you had suggested to be included in a cassette actually
5 present there?
6 A. Yes. From the first to the last word,
7 everything was taken.
8 Q. Can you tell me how did you entitle this tape
9 which was put together according to your concept and
10 with the text which you provided for the visual
12 A. There were several working versions, which is
13 understandable. Finally, it ended up with this title,
14 "War in Bosnia-Herzegovina. "
15 Q. Regardless of the fact that this videotape
16 was put together in an unprofessional way, but what did
17 you suggest for the ending of the videotape given that
18 you provided suggestions for all parts of it?
19 A. I definitely wanted a recording and I wanted
20 Mr. Zejnil Delalic to appear on camera. That is the
21 person who, thanks to the Croatian propaganda machine,
22 allegedly fled in a Chetnik helicopter.
23 Q. Your tape was supposed to be denial of
24 sorts. Did you include the fact that he arrived in
25 Vienna the day after he left Konjic?
1 A. Yes, it was. But following that there was
2 another excerpt. Another excerpt which I have never
3 talked about with either Dzemal, Ciso or anyone.
4 Q. Now what excerpt are you referring to?
5 A. It was Zejnil's message to the public of
6 Bosnia-Herzegovina, to his friends, to his
7 collaborators, that he was there, that is in Vienna.
8 That he had nothing to do with Serbs. And as far as I
9 knew, this video was -- and it was Dzemal who gave me
10 this information, Dzemal Delalic, was supposed to,
11 through certain channels, be brought to Sarajevo and
12 presented to our own public there.
13 Q. I'm sorry, I did not understand you very
14 well. You mean the message that Zejnil was sending to
15 the public was supposed to be taken to Sarajevo or the
16 entire videotape?
17 A. It was just the message, Zejnil's message.
18 Q. Mr. Milic, do you know or did you give any
19 suggestions before you resumed work on this videotape
20 to inform Mr. Zejnil Delalic of your effort? And do
21 you know where he was at the time?
22 A. While we worked at a fast pace on it, both
23 the preparations and the putting together of the
24 videotape. It didn't even cross my mind to inquire
25 about Mr. Delalic's whereabouts, even though I knew
1 that he was in Vienna.
2 Q. After the videotape was put together, did you
3 suggest that it be shown to Mr. Delalic and was it
5 A. It was only later that I asked Dzemal whether
6 Zejnil had seen this tape. He told me that he had not
7 seen it yet and that they wanted to surprise him with
8 it once the entire material was put together.
9 Q. Mr. Milic, let's try to pace ourselves up to
10 take the cue from you. Once you received the final
11 edit of the cut of the videotape, do you know whether
12 someone, Dzemal or someone else, showed this videotape
13 to Zejnil Delalic? And do you know what his reaction
14 to it was?
15 A. According to me, it was, for us, it was a
16 defeat. He completely rejected my intention and my
17 idea. But as a consolation of sorts, he thanked me for
18 effort. He opted to get redress in a legal way and
19 this is what he pursued. Apparently he hired an
21 Q. Mr. Milic, I would now like to turn to your
22 script, to the text and comments that you compiled.
23 And did you present the activities of Zejnil Delalic
24 during 1992 in a truthful manner?
25 A. This is a very difficult question. There has
1 been a lot of exaggeration there. A lot of attempts to
2 respond to this counter campaign with equal means.
3 Certain facts from the field do not correspond to my
4 comments on videotape.
5 Q. Mr. Milic, you're a journalist. Every
6 professional has a certain ethics. When in a
7 propaganda piece, which is so biased, when untruthful
8 facts are presented, do you respond in kind trying to
9 counter that propaganda?
10 A. In a war all means are allowed. And by that
11 very fact, it applies also to the journalistic
13 Q. Can you tell me, in compiling your comments,
14 did you base them on real or true events which you
15 exaggerated in a way as you put it? Or you did not
16 have such a foundation in real events?
17 A. The real foundation and my inspiration for
18 this approach to the work on this videotape were, on
19 the one hand, an orchestrated and well-conducted
20 campaign on the Croatian media, which was very
21 effective. And, on the other hand -- I was waiting for
22 the information of the people who were in the field
23 with whom I was in contact steadily and a very
24 important source, which was voice of America radio
25 programmes. Which reported in a very balanced way on
1 the events in the region.
2 Q. Very well, thank you. That would be enough
3 about the foundation. Your Honours, would this be a
4 convenient time to stop for today?
5 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: It's 5.30. We'll
6 adjourn until Monday to continue.
7 --- Whereupon hearing adjourned at 5.30
8 to be reconvened on Monday, the 8th
9 day of June, 1998.