1 (The witness entered court)
2 --- Upon commencing at 10.08 a.m.
3 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Good morning, ladies and
4 gentlemen. Could we have the appearances, please.
5 MR. NIEMANN: Your Honours, please, my name
6 is Niemann,. I appear with my colleagues, Ms. McHenry
7 and Mr. Huber for the Prosecution, Your Honours.
8 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: May we have the
9 appearances for the Defence, please.
10 MS. RESIDOVIC: Good morning, Your Honours,
11 my name is Edina Residovic, I am counsel for Mr.
12 Delalic. My Co-counsel is Eugene O'Sullivan, professor
13 from Canada. Thank you.
14 MR. OLUJIC: Good morning, Your Honours. My
15 name is Mr. Olujic and I am Counsel for Zdravko Mucic
16 and together here with me today is Niko Djuric, an
17 attorney from Croatia.
18 MR. KARABDIC: Good morning, Your Honours.
19 My Name is Salih Karabdic, attorney from Sarajevo. I
20 am here as a counsel to Hazim Delic.
21 MS. BOLER: Good morning, Your Honours. My
22 name is Nancy Boler. I represent Esad Landzo I am from
23 Houston, Texas. My colleague, Cynthia McMurrey is
24 working on a defence matter and she will be here later
25 this morning.
1 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Thank you very much.
2 Ms. Residovic, I think you are still with your
4 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: You may proceed.
5 Examined by Ms. Residovic:
6 Q. Good morning, Mr. Milic.
7 A. Good morning.
8 Q. I hope you had time to rest over the weekend
9 and I hope that I need not to report the notice I told
10 you on Friday. This is also valid today. But
11 nevertheless, to repeat, would you please wait for the
12 end of the interpretation then answer.
13 A. Yes, it is clear.
14 Q. Mr. Milic, you remember that on Friday, we
15 concluded our conversation by your answer, which was
16 that basis for your inspiration to work on the footage
17 in question from one hand was due to a well
18 orchestrated and efficient campaign in the Croatian
19 media. And, on the other hand, certain facts that you
20 were given from various sources, which gave you basis
21 to start with a counter campaign. Do you remember?
22 A. Yes, this was so.
23 Q. I will continue in the same direction with my
24 questions. To one of my questions you partially
25 confirmed. I would nevertheless like to have that
1 clarified further. Did you, Mr. Milic, in any
2 personal -- from any personal knowledge know facts and
3 events in Konjic as well as did you know anything about
4 the activities of Mr. Delalic?
5 A. I believe I said on Friday that from the
6 beginning of the aggression against Bosnia-Herzegovina
7 and during the war I was not in Konjic, Sarajevo or any
8 other part of Bosnia-Herzegovina. I was not a war
9 reporter, I was not in the field in
10 Bosnia-Herzegovina. I was then abroad.
11 Q. Mr. Milic, did you personally put together
12 all the commentaries on the footage and if you can
13 remember how many of those were there?
14 A. My final version had 15 commentaries. And
15 seems to me 22 edited excerpts. And I think we went
16 through the tape yesterday again and the text read by
17 the speaker who was not very skilful, but it is in
18 accordance with what I wrote’ with what I created.
19 Q. You have told the Chamber that you were shown
20 a tape by the Defence and it is a Defence exhibit. And
21 even without my question, you confirmed to the Chamber
22 that these were your commentaries. You have answered
23 to my following questions at that. So my question now
24 is, in this tape, which is accepted as exhibit, are
25 there all your commentaries and excerpts or is there
1 something missing?
2 A. I would like to view through the tape
3 presented to the Chamber by the Prosecution. Again,
4 because I know that on my version of the tape, my last
5 words, were supposed to be in connection to Zejnil's
6 arrival and the time he spent in Vienna and later on we
7 put Zejnil's statement on the tape. And this is the
8 tape that I put together and I claim it as my version.
9 The version of the tape that the Prosecution holds I
10 shouldn't -- I wouldn't want to comment on it right
11 now. I would like to compare the two versions.
12 Q. We will probably have time to return to that
13 later on, but before we put your testimony in
14 connection with the exhibit we have here, because the
15 tape is not something that can be presented without
16 viewing. You have to see it. But, nevertheless, could
17 you tell us, do you know who edited the tape in Vienna
18 when you gave the instructions for it? Do you know who
19 made the final version?
20 A. No, but I can presume that it was one of the
21 people that Dzemal or Ciso found in Vienna. But what
22 is obvious is that it was done by amateurs.
23 Q. Can you remember, Mr. Milic, in which manner
24 was the text read on that tape, the text submitted by
1 A. My judgement is that it is done very poorly,
2 in a very amateur way. The only effective part refers
3 to the introductory part of the war in
4 Bosnia-Herzegovina, but this and a footage taken by the
5 Konjic television. The camera and editing is too
6 still, it's too dead, whilst we are listening to the
7 speaker, the reading of the speaker is very bad. So
8 they must have had poor technology and people who are
9 amateurs who do not know their work.
10 Q. Thank you. On Friday you said that you went
11 quickly through 20 or 30 tapes and then that you viewed
12 carefully the two tapes which you made out of those 20
13 or 30. And then, according to your directives, the
14 final version was made. Can you remember what was the
15 duration of the final tape that you have received from
17 A. Conditionally speaking it is a final
18 version. I believe it was about three and three and a
19 half hours. It is still a raw version. We wanted to
20 have that up to 80 minutes, which is still too much.
21 The point or the statement of that footage was supposed
22 to be a certain basis which we would then use at
23 various press conferences. But the version that came
24 from Vienna could not be released to public in that
25 duration. But, nevertheless, the operation stopped. I
1 don't know the exact reasons for it, but that's the end
2 of it.
3 Q. Can we continue in this direction a bit. On
4 Friday you said that you gave directions for the script
5 and the draft. And when you said that, when you gave
6 those directions, did you also offer suggestions about
7 what has to be stressed in the excerpts that are to be
9 A. I believe that I asked from Dzemal, for
10 Zejnil as the hero of my story, so to speak, to be in
11 the first plan. He has to be on the screen for at
12 least five seconds. But they took that too literally
13 and then I had Zejnil up to five or ten minutes
14 constantly on the screen.
15 Q. Thank you.
16 A. The authenticated footage was on those 20 or
17 30 tapes, and then I made my version, edited version.
18 Q. Thank you. I just wanted to clarify that.
19 Mr. Milic, you said what your sources of information
20 were and when you finally received the tape, you wanted
21 to have the opinion of a person's that the tape was all
22 about. Do you know whether this tape was shown to Mr.
23 Delalic and, if so, who showed it to him and where?
24 A. Quite a bit later after our work, I learned
25 that Zejnil Delalic saw the tape, but that he decided
1 not to proceed. Otherwise, I insisted that Zejnil sees
2 the tape because I didn't directly want to tell those
3 people that this is not what I wanted and that we
4 should have to have consultations or Zejnil Delalic's
6 Then through Dzemal, I asked to be given
7 Delalic's opinion. At that time he was in Munich. And
8 after awhile, Dzemal told me that they decided not to
9 proceed. That Zejnil Delalic was grateful for my work
10 and effort, but that he chose to seek compensation
11 through attorneys. I was not happy with that decision,
12 especially because at that time, time was on the
13 Bosnian side, as well as on my and his side. But such
14 is life.
15 Q. Thank you. Within those 15 commentaries that
16 you put together, did you describe Zejnil Delalic's
17 activities during 1992 in a truthful way?
18 A. Only partially. Everything else was intended
19 to be a counter campaign with only one aim to tell our
20 people and the Croatian public that the undeniable
21 truth is Mr. Delalic is not a Chetnik, he's not a KOS
22 member, that he did not flee by using Chetnik
23 helicopter. And that he did not betray the principles
24 and the fight for Bosnia-Herzegovina. That Zejnil
25 Delalic did not betray the siege of Sarajevo. And that
1 he is not a person who released Serb detainees.
2 Q. To return to one part of your answers. On
3 Friday you said that all the propaganda against Zejnil
4 could have been put in three categories, one of them
5 being that he's a KOS member, K-O-S, and that he aids
6 the Serb sides and that he's trying to strain the
7 relationship between Croats and Muslims. And the
8 third, that he used the Chetnik helicopter to flee to
9 the Serb side.
10 Due to a better understanding of what you
11 referred to, I wanted to ask you at the end of 1992 and
12 beginning of 1993, what did it mean to be stigmatised
13 as a Chetnik in a campaign undertaken in Croatia?
14 A. We could move even further. Generally
15 speaking, in western Europe, if one is called "Chetnik"
16 amongst Muslims or Croatians, literally meant a death
17 sentence. Without any law or by using any methods
18 possible, excluding Croatian population, which
19 traditionally has certain hatred against Chetniks.
20 At the same time in Croatia there were
21 between 300,000 and 500,000 Bosnian Muslims who fled
22 before the Chetnik knife. People who went through a
23 lot at that period. Many of them still remember the
24 Second World War and the term "Chetnik" by itself, even
25 for the Chetnik himself, has a very, very negative
1 conation and is a source of a lot of negative energy.
2 And you can imagine what the situation is if one is
3 being presented as a Chetnik amongst his own people.
4 And this is what happened to Mr. Zejnil Delalic. This
5 means to not only sentence you to death, but his entire
7 Q. Answer to my question, you have said not only
8 in Croatia, but in the entire Western Europe, what
9 would that mean if you can clarify?
10 A. The public in Bosnia-Herzegovina during 1992,
11 over 1 million of Bosniaks were in other countries like
12 Switzerland, Netherlands, Austria and later on Sweden
13 opened up its borders. And all those people did not
14 have contact with the Bosnia-Herzegovina media, which
15 were supposed to be the most reliable source of
17 BiH television did not have its satellite
18 programme. Radio transmission was destroyed by
19 Chetniks and HVO. Our press did not arrive to those
20 countries and people were thirsty for information.
21 They didn't know the foreign languages, neither German
22 or English or French. And, therefore, they were
23 directed towards Croatian media, Croatian satellite
24 channel and the Croatian press. I believe three
25 dailies, three Croatian dailies were present in foreign
1 countries and four to five weeklies, which dealt
2 thoroughly with the situation in Bosnia-Herzegovina.
3 Thoroughly, of course, is under quotations because at
4 that time we had the campaign going against Zejnil
5 Delalic and some other members of the Bosnian TO.
6 Q. I believe that this additional clarification
7 also explained a motive of your engagement with the
9 A. Yes, that is correct.
10 Q. Did the effort you invested in that work, was
11 it rewarded? Did you have any benefit?
12 A. I'm sorry, that never went through
13 entirely,. My work never really saw the light of day
14 that I thought it would. And in that period of active
15 cooperation and my work, we didn't have time to worry
16 about fees, although it doesn't mean that I wouldn't
17 have received anything. But at that time, I had money
18 and Mr. Vesid and Dzemal were there when we would meet,
19 when I would come to Zagreb, they would pay my round
20 trip ticket and money that would be spent on food in
21 Zagreb. That was all paid by then. But there was no
22 agreement, written agreement about the whole deal.
23 Q. To return to the text that you put together,
24 you said that the press stated that Mr. Delalic was a
25 Chetnik and a traitor, in your commentaries, how did
1 you try to present him to counter this campaign?
2 A. In my comments, he had to be the absolute
3 opposite. The absolute opposite of everything which
4 they said he was. He was a patriot, he was a
5 combatant, a humanist. And my commentary, men in the
6 forefront of the fighting ranks for
8 Q. But as you said on Friday, there was a very
9 significant propaganda action being carried out,
10 vis-à-vis Mr. Delalic saying that he was releasing the
11 Chetniks. What did you advance to counter such a
12 propaganda thesis in such a propaganda machinery in
13 your own text?
14 A. Well, in order to boost the morale of the
15 people and to watch this milieu of him, I was even,
16 even more caustic in one of my versions.
17 Q. You also said that a number of these attacks
18 launched against him in the press was that he was
19 against the lifting of the blockade in Sarajevo, and
20 that because of that action of his, Sarajevo was even
21 under a stronger blockade. So what did you offer in
22 your text to counter such propaganda, namely, that he
23 was against the lifting of the blockade of Sarajevo?
24 A. According to me, he was in the forefront of
25 the ranks for the lifting of the blockade of Sarajevo.
1 Q. Please, I've confined myself in my questions
2 to just what you have said, that was the fundamental
3 basis of this campaign of yours, not every single
4 caption that you used in this tape. Please tell me, as
5 regards these facts which you have just enumerated,
6 namely, that he was the organiser; that he was the
7 bellwether, that he was in the forefront of the
8 struggle for freedom; that he locked up Serbs; that he
9 was the first to organise the lifting of the blockade
10 of Sarajevo; Mr. Milic, did you hear these facts from
11 persons to whom you talked, from Ciso, from Vejsil,
12 from Dzemil, from Sefik, or did you hear that from
13 other persons from Konjic, who at that time, were
14 staying in Konjic?
15 A. Now we are returning to an analysis of my own
16 pattern of my own position. I believe it will suffice
17 if I say that these were improvisations, my own
18 improvisations. That was my story, which only had one
19 objective, and that is to refute, at least in part, the
20 effects to offset the effects of the Croatian
21 propaganda campaign being waged against Zejnil Delalic.
22 Q. But still, Mr. Milic, I understand you have
23 given me an indirect answer, but I should like to ask
24 you to tell me, was one of the persons, did one of the
25 persons whom I enumerated, personally tell you that
1 Zejnil Delalic was the organiser of the struggle in
2 that region, and that he locked up Serbs, and that he
3 was the first person, the leader of the people, to lift
4 the blockade of Sarajevo? Did any one of these persons
5 tell you these facts, relate to you these facts as
7 A. No. On the contrary. In the time when I was
8 making this tape, there was some reluctance on the part
9 of Dzemal, actually objections raised on the part of
10 Dzemal, in respect of some of my formulations.
11 In respect of a specific operation, I'm not
12 quite sure which one in relation to a village, when I
13 put him in the forefront, and when I glorified him. He
14 said that I was exaggerating, that this was a man who
15 had rented two houses only and equipped a unit and
16 participated in the -- putting together of some
17 formations. And there was some sort of meeting, a
18 consultation in the place Fojnica and, according to
19 him, that was also an exaggerated report on my part.
20 But, I repeat, everything was in pursuit of a
21 single objective, this whole story. It had
22 four-and-a-half typewritten cards of text and it
23 required -- it would take some 15 to 16 minutes on the
24 part of a professional announcer to read it on radio.
25 So nicely put together and read properly, that would
1 give the proper effect regarding Mr. Delalic's welcome
2 in Vienna, which was the whole point, the, like, motive
3 of this story. And that would also be reflected, would
4 yield results in the field, that is to say in our own
5 as well as in the Croatian public.
6 Q. Mr. Delalic (sic), when we started our
7 conversation, I asked you about the programme called a
8 picture -- "To Picture," which is a TV Zagreb
9 programme, and you said, as is recorded in the
10 transcript, that you did not see, but that you saw it
11 later. Will you please tell me when you saw it and why
12 was it important; why did you feel it was important for
13 you to mention it?
14 A. This question also leads us to an analysis of
15 my text, which I still do not have as such, but I
16 recall some things. I did say that a -- directed
17 programme -- I did not see this programme that you
18 referred to on television myself then, but I will be
19 seeing it, I will be viewing it on the video cassettes
20 which will come from Vienna. And the title, which
21 Mr. Latin either deliberately or inadvertently, --
22 Mr. Latin -- was quite suitable for me. I could use it
23 properly. They, namely, call him Mr. Delalic, the
24 commander of the Territorial Defence of Konjic, I
25 believe, what is -- essentially that he was a
1 commander. Although he was not one. And Dzemal told
2 me that Zejnil later wanted to deny that, but, as we
3 lived quite quickly and worked quite quickly in that
4 period, life simply went on. But I saw excellent
5 material in it to project an image before our own
6 public, that the cassette was originally intended for,
7 offers Zejnil Delalic as a commander and to lay there
8 by the foundations for all my theses in the text which
9 was to follow, and which has some 160 typewritten lines
10 of text.
11 Q. Thank you, Mr. Milic.
12 Your Honours, in view of the fact that the
13 witness is speaking about a specific Exhibit in this
14 case, I should like to ask you, whether to be able to
15 correlate this testimony with the Exhibit. I should
16 like to ask the Prosecutor whether the evidence
17 material contains this videotape, whether it is marked
18 E46 -- I46 as a whole or partially so, because we have
19 received both tapes under the same number and the
20 decision of the court refers to I46.
21 So if you could please clarify this for me,
22 it would be easy for me to see whether the witness
23 recognises this videotape as the one that he made
24 comments for, namely, I am talking about evidence
25 material, Exhibit number 116.
1 MR. NIEMANN: Your Honour, I don't know
2 whether it's the tape he is talking about or not. It's
3 their witness, not ours. They have had opportunity to
4 look at the video and make that decision themselves.
5 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Do you understand what
6 Mr. Niemann said?
7 MS. RESIDOVIC: No, I did not, Your Honours,
8 because when the Prosecutor proposed that 116 be
9 tendered into evidence, he gave us two videotapes. One
10 was an abridged version, and one was a whole version,
11 as reportedly found in INDA-BAU, with the proposal that
12 the text of the journalist should not be accepted. But
13 by your decision you did accept the cassette videotape
14 I46, which is Exhibit 116. So we did not know whether
15 the Exhibit contains this cassette found in INDA-BAU or
16 just the excerpts which the Prosecutor has also given
18 So I just wanted the Prosecutor to clarify
19 that particular fact for us, because your decision,
20 actually, encompasses I46, but we have both.
21 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: The evidence is about
22 the tape your witness edited. That is the evidence he
23 is giving. If that is the tape you want to tender, you
24 go ahead and tender it.
25 MS. RESIDOVIC: May I then ask that cassette
1 number 2, that this Exhibit contribution number 1,
2 which is contained on a tape number 2, be shown, so
3 that we can see whether the witness recognises it as
4 his own work.
5 Can we take this tape, which you have here,
6 and give it to the technician?
7 THE REGISTRAR: That is the Prosecutor's tape
8 I46, which is Exhibit 116. It has been accepted on the
9 19th of January. There is a full transcript of the
10 entire tape 16A and 16B, with excerpts from the
11 transcript also given. Then we also have the
12 transcripts of 116C, which was shown for another
13 witness. Would you like cassette number 116?
14 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: (Microphone turned off)
15 -- because he is only giving evidence of what he
17 MS. RESIDOVIC: Yes. I'd like the
18 technicians to show us the beginning of this tape and
19 the end of this tape. I assume that the Trial Chamber
20 will appreciate that we do not have to watch the entire
21 tape, which probably runs for some three hours. We
22 just want to check whether that is the tape.
23 Of course we can always view the edited
24 parts, but may I now ask the usher to take the cassette
25 to the technical service and to project, to show us the
1 beginning, so that we could correlate this testimony of
2 this witness with the evidence in question. If you'll
3 allow that, Your Honours.
4 If the technical service is able to show us
5 this tape, will they show us the first report, which
6 has been tendered into evidence and admitted by the
7 court as Exhibit 116.
8 Q. And may I ask you, Mr. Milic, to pay special
9 attention to the text so that we could see whether the
10 text is the text which you yourself prepared.
11 (Videotape played)
12 THE INTERPRETER: Before the beginning
13 of the war in Bosnia-Herzegovina, a very small number
14 of Muslims in Bosnia were ready for war. One of the
15 few who reckoned that there will be war, after all, was
16 Zjenil Delalic, a famous businessman, who after 20
17 years working in the west, returned to his native
18 Konjic in March this year and formed immediately an
19 underground war headquarters and equipped two modern
20 houses for that purpose.
21 He obtained all the initial equipment,
22 starting with the money, which he brought with himself,
23 which he used for the HVO of Konjic and Jablanica,
24 which had already been formed. Most of the citizens of
25 Muslims look at them as the opposers of the formidable
1 JNA, the Serbs armed to the teeth. It was very clearly
2 marked, which Serb sites had to be taken in the area
3 of Konjic.
4 The first operation of this kind was
5 undertaken in the beginning of April, and the military
6 factory Igman was taken with a great quantity of
7 ammunition with which the entire Bosnia-Herzegovina was
8 to use later for its war. At the Helm office, elected
9 group of 20 lads in the night of 19 April. After
10 midnight Zejnil took the Serb village of Celebici
11 and the barracks in Celebici and the barracks in
12 Celebici. That was the first seized JNA barracks in
13 Bosnia-Herzegovina with a rich arsenal of war booty and
14 ordinance, and this same group stationed themselves
15 there as the first combat group on the Territorial
16 Defence in Konjic right away.
17 That 12 soldiers who were being released to
18 go home via Split were the source of the anger of
19 Mr. Kukanjac, and Kukanjac shouted how he would bomb
20 Konjic in retaliation.
21 This group attacked the 8th of April and took
22 all the other barracks and the depot of Territorial
23 Defence weapons and ammunition. During this operation
24 General Kukanjac sent a whole squadron of aeroplanes,
25 which succeeded to destroy more than half of the
1 ordinance which belonged to Konjic, Jablanica, Prozor.
2 And this is how it looked after the first bombing and
3 shelling in Konjic.
4 Q. Will you please now stop the projection of
5 the tape. Mr. Milic, you heard this first text. Is
6 this the text which you personally wrote yourself?
7 A. Yes, it is, but perhaps because of some
8 technical inadequacy, we do not have the credits, the
9 television Konjic caption.
10 Q. Perhaps you didn't see, but it was shown.
11 A. Well, I didn't see it.
12 MS. RESIDOVIC: Okay. Thank you very much.
13 So this is the text which you wrote.
14 Your Honours, can we now look at the end of
15 this tape to see whether it is the end of the final
16 version of the cassette which this witness had in his
17 hands. So I should like to ask the technical people to
18 show us the end of the cassette now.
19 I believe that the technical section has
20 understood that I would like to view a couple of
21 minutes of the last part of this cassette, so that the
22 witness could see whether it is a tape which he made.
23 (Videotape played)
24 THE INTERPRETER: -- Detracting our attention from
25 our main task, which is fighting the Chetniks. Zejnil
1 is exerting maximum efforts so as to calm down
2 tensions, but the HVO is trying to smear him as much as
3 possible in every possible way. They are resorting in
4 this effort to all sorts of conceivable things.
5 Q. Sorry, this is impossible to follow. Thank
6 you. It's enough.
7 Mr. Milic, was this the last part of the
8 cassette which you edited, which you prepared? Please
9 tell me, as this cassette which here is Exhibit number
10 116, which has been submitted by the Prosecutor to the
11 Defence, have you had occasion to see this cassette?
12 Tell me, at this point in time, now that you have seen
13 these parts, were all your previous articles included
14 in that cassette?
15 A. Yes. Yes. But then there was this abrupt
16 cutting off of parts.
17 Q. What do you mean? What was missing? How
18 many of your reports or articles or segments of this
19 text was missing? Can you remember exactly?
20 A. After talking to Mr. Diva Caric (phoen) and
21 Zejnil, please, I know that the last part which I wrote
22 is missing, and that is the light motive of my report,
23 of my story, and that is also a shot of Zejnil Delalic
24 from the welcome ceremony in Vienna.
25 And then there was after that something which
1 was subsequently added by Dzemal to this cassette,
2 which I know for a fact was produced by me. That part
3 is the part of Zejnil's message, which did not fit into
4 it, namely, it was not originally intended to be part
5 of this material, but Dzemal had it produced and given
6 to me for my inspection. But this message of Zejnil's
7 was supposed to reach through some channels Sarajevo,
8 the ^ Sarajevo people.
9 MS. RESIDOVIC: Your Honours, given the fact
10 that this witness has said that all the texts, from the
11 first one to this one, are his indeed, but that there
12 is one missing, if I understand the things right and if
13 I can say this.
14 If the Prosecutor agrees that these texts
15 which are contained on the cassette, from the first to
16 the penultimate text, according to the witness, I
17 suggest -- I move that this be accepted, that this be
18 admitted. If it is not admitted, then I propose that
19 perhaps we should show every one of the texts of the
20 parts of the cassette so that the witness could
21 recognise them. Because there were 12 of them, as we
22 know, and these ones which were mentioned by the
23 witness too.
24 So if the Prosecutor agrees, if we could
25 perhaps accept this proposal of mine so that we don't
1 have to view the entire cassette.
2 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: (Microphone turned off)
3 How about a suggestion?
4 MR. NIEMANN: I have no objection to the tape
5 being tendered. I can't give any assurances that it's
6 the tape that was made in its entirety by this
7 gentleman, this witness, but I certainly have no
8 objection to it being tendered.
9 MS. RESIDOVIC: Your Honours, it has been
10 made part of the evidence. I just want the witness to
11 confirm that the text of -- the journalistic text on
12 the cassette actually belong to this witness. That is
13 the whole point of his testimony. So what I am
14 actually asking is whether the Prosecutor accepts that
15 these texts are texts of this witness, namely, that we
16 do not have to show every story to the witness for him
17 to identify it as his own text.
18 JUDGE JAN: But has he seen the tape which is
19 in the Court, the whole of it, this witness?
20 MS. RESIDOVIC: Yes, the witness has seen
21 this cassette.
22 JUDGE JAN: He has seen all those 12
23 portions? Ask him if he's seen all those portions.
24 MS. RESIDOVIC:
25 Q. Mr. Milic, have you seen all these portions,
1 from the first to the last, which was shown here right
2 now? Do you recognise that as the text which you
3 personally wrote?
4 A. Yes, those are my texts, but abridged. The
5 whole video cassette has been abridged. It is not
7 Q. Mr. Milic, you've just said that there is a
8 commentary of yours missing and two stories, the one
9 regarding the welcome in Vienna, which was very
10 important to you for your whole effort, and the
11 statement by Mr. Delalic.
12 Your Honours, in order for us to be able to
13 identify that part of the text also, in accordance with
14 Rule 66 the Prosecutor has submitted to us cassette
15 I66, which has the reportedly being found in
16 INDA-BAU. So may I ask you that this text, which is
17 also a continuation of this cassette, which is already
18 in the evidence, I should like to ask you to let the
19 witness view it.
20 May I ask the usher to give you this text of
21 the Prosecutor. I have a copy for the Prosecutor and
22 for the court.
23 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: (Microphone turned off).
24 MS. RESIDOVIC: It is all, Your Honours, one
25 cassette, but it was simply cut where his last story
1 was, and that last story is contained in another
2 cassette, which was allegedly found also in INDA-BAU
3 and which the Prosecutor has submitted to us. I should
4 like to show the witness's last segment to see whether
5 that is also the story which this witness made when he
6 made the original complete tape. So that is a part of
7 the last segment. He did say that there were 15 texts,
8 15 stories, on the original cassette, and this one
9 which was given to us contains 14.
10 We've heard another witness explain to us the
11 problems related to the editing of the text, so it is
12 quite possible that there was a technical problem of
13 that kind involved.
14 I have here a translation of the text for
15 you, and I should also like to ask the witness to take
16 a look at it to tell us whether that is his concluding
18 The Prosecutor did not offer as evidence that
19 cassette, but only the first one, but he did submit the
20 latter to us, to the Defence, for their inspection.
21 THE REGISTRAR: This is document 184A.
22 MS. RESIDOVIC: I should now like to ask the
23 technical people to let us see the first story from the
24 first tape, the story with a flag.
25 Q. You will be listening to the text in our
1 language, Mr. Milic, so that you don't have to look at
2 the English version.
3 It is tape number 1 and the first story on
4 that tape.
5 (Videotape played)
6 MS. RESIDOVIC: Thank you. My apologies, but
7 I gave the written translation of the text. That's why
8 there was no interpretation.
9 Q. Mr. Milic, is this the last story made by you
10 when you were putting the tape together for the counter
11 campaign for Mr. Delalic? Is this your last written
13 A. The text read by the speaker is my last
14 commentary, which was supposed to be illustrated by the
15 footage from the club of his business associates in
16 Vienna, which we saw only a brief second of. And I
17 said already that on the final tape sent to me by
18 Dzemal from Vienna, there was Zejnil's statement added
19 for the Sarajevo public.
20 Q. Can we now see for a minute another story
21 from tape 1.
22 (Videotape played)
23 Q. Thank you. This part is five to six minutes
24 long. Can the technical service please interrupt the
25 tape now, stop it. Either fast forward it or stop it
1 because we've seen enough to ask the question I
2 wanted. Mr. Milic, is this footage of the welcome
3 reception that was in line after your final commentary
4 in the final version of the tape?
5 A. Yes, this was where the tape was supposed to
7 Q. Would this footage then confirm your thesis
8 that Zejnil Delalic did not use Chetnik helicopter to
9 flee to the Serb side, but rather that he came to
10 Vienna amongst his business and personal
12 A. I have mentioned that already a few times
13 today, that the -- motive, the point of the entire idea
14 was to prove that Zejnil Delalic did not betray
15 Bosnia-Herzegovina, Bosniaks, that he's not a Chetnik
16 or a KOS agent. And the last ten lines of text that I
17 wrote points to that. And all that needed to be
18 illustrated by this particular footage. That was
19 supposed to be the end. And also, then, the basis for
20 any future discussions and questions at press
22 Q. You said that Dzemal, to your script added
23 another story, which, together with this reception
24 party, Zejnil Delalic wanted to be sent to Bosnia.
25 Since you had that tape in 1993, can we now briefly see
1 the third excerpt from Tape 1, so that the witness
2 could give his opinion on it?
3 (Videotape played)?
4 MS. RESIDOVIC:
5 Q. We have the text, can we please stop the tape
6 a minute, so that we distribute copies. We have here
7 written translations of the spoken text. Can this be
8 distributed to the Judges and the Prosecutor's office.
9 This text could also be given to interpreters, so they
10 could follow.
11 THE REGISTRAR: No translation.
12 MS. RESIDOVIC:
13 Q. Could we now go back to the third excerpt on
14 Tape 1 to be shown to the witness, so that I could ask
15 the following question.
16 (Videotape played)
17 THE INTERPRETER: That was the welcome, with
18 typical Chetnik songs because they say I came with a
19 Chetnik helicopter. This is really simple for some
20 sick, imaginative imbeciles to fabricate because they
21 are unable to show one fifth of my results in this
22 stupid war.
23 MS. RESIDOVIC: Thank you. I believe this is
24 sufficient for me to ask the question.
25 Q. Mr. Milic, is that an excerpt added to your
1 script by Mr. Delalic's brother, Dzemal, for which he
2 said that Zejnil wanted to send it to Sarajevo together
3 with the footage from the reception?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Your Honourable Judges, since this witness
6 needs to testify on the entirety of the tape, I would
7 suggest that the text which the witness recognises is
8 the final text of his tape, with two additional
9 stories, which he also recognised as excerpts from 1993
10 be admitted into evidence for the Defence.
11 MR. NIEMANN: No objections, Your Honour.
12 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: It's admitted.
13 THE REGISTRAR: This is No. D-186. A for the
14 first part, B for the second and C for the third part.
15 JUDGE JAN: If the person shown on the screen
16 was your client?
17 MS. RESIDOVIC: Yes. You heard from the
18 previous witness that in the fit of depression wanted
19 to send that statement to Sarajevo. I cannot say more
20 of it because I did not witness it. But since this
21 particular witness had the tape in his hands, could
22 confirm that.
23 Mr. Milic, the Chamber has just admitted
24 these additional parts which were missing, but could
25 you please state again that all the written texts read
1 on the previous tape between 1 and 14 are really your
2 texts, is that true?
3 A. Absolutely. Every speaker's word is what I
4 wrote. I wrote that in Fontana, in Croatia in 1993,
5 mid-March, I believe, sometime in the spring of 1993.
6 That was the period of most intensive work. These are
7 my words, my text, which, unfortunately, was not made
8 public. It was disposed of.
9 Q. Mr. Milic, the last commentary with the text
10 of Mr. Delalic's leaving Konjic and his arrival to
11 Vienna, was this the basic aim of your counter
12 campaign, which was suppose to prove that Zejnil did
13 not leave for Belgrade, but instead he came to Vienna?
14 A. I believe on Friday and today, I stressed the
15 light motive, the point and the aim we had. And
16 exactly through this last excerpt we wanted to tell
17 everything. That he's not a Chetnik. He's not a KOS
18 agent. That he's not a traitor, but rather, that he's
19 a son of Bosnia-Herzegovina and its people.
20 Q. And the last thing I wanted to tell you
21 before the Chamber referred to commentaries which were
22 your journalist improvisation with an aim of counter
23 campaign or a reaction to the propaganda seen in the
24 Croatian press.
25 So my question is, is this the essence of
1 everything that you have spoken of here? Although many
2 of those things referred to certainly are things that
3 you cannot personally testify.
4 A. This is the essence. This is my work. I
5 cannot say more than that.
6 Q. I apologise, Your Honours, I believe I
7 clarified that, but my colleague warned me in full
8 right. The witness confirmed several times that the
9 text on this tape, as well as the text that we have
10 shown now are his. Therefore, does the chamber accept
11 that these texts were made by this witness and they
12 form a part of the tape which is Exhibit 116?
13 MR. NIEMANN: I object to that, Your Honour.
14 I believe that was clear, but...
15 JUDGE JAN: That is what this witness claims,
16 nothing more than that.
17 MS. RESIDOVIC: Yes. I believe that was
18 clear, but since my colleague warned me, I wanted to
19 clarify that. Your Honours, I have no further
20 questions for this witness. Mr. Milic, thank you very
22 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Is there any
23 cross-examination of this witness?
24 MR. OLUJIC: Your Honours, the second accused
25 Defence has no questions.
1 MR. KARABDIC: Your Honours, Mr. Delic's
2 Defence has no questions for this witness.
3 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Questions.
4 MS. BOLER: Your Honours, the Defence of Esad
5 Landzo has no questions for this witness.
6 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Any examination?
7 MR. NIEMANN: Yes, Your Honour.
8 Cross-examined by Mr. Niemann
9 Q. Do you know whether or not Mr. Delalic, did
10 you see any material that he had sent to other
11 journalists other than yourself when you were preparing
12 this tape?
13 A. No, I am not familiar with that. Concerning
14 the media of Croatia, Serbia and the TV Konjic and some
15 footage were taken from our national B and H
16 television. That was what the tapes I had consisted
18 Q. I was really more or less just asking about
19 written material that he had prepared, did you see
20 anything of that nature, other than the section that he
21 has just read out that is now being admitted?
22 A. No, I did not have a single written
23 material. I made my notes and I received information
24 from Dzemal, Ciso, Vejsil and some other people. And I
25 also taped some news from Croatian radio or Serb
1 radio. I did not have written material, but I used
2 Croatian media as the basis for my commentaries and I
3 followed the reporting. I analysed it. I received
4 something from Vejsil as well. And on the basis of
5 their content and the given moment, I decided to put
6 together the material as seen here.
7 Q. Now when you're in Croatia at that particular
8 time, did you ever hear of a news agency with the
9 initials BIPA?
10 A. No. The official Croatian agencies here
11 HINA, H-I-N-A.
12 Q. It might not could not be Croatian, it could
13 be somewhere from the former Yugoslavia, maybe Bosnia.
14 Have you ever heard of a newspaper agency, B-I-P-A,
16 A. No, I didn't pay particular attention. I
17 never heard of it.
18 Q. What about a journalist by the name of Mr.
19 Nosic, N-o-s-i-c?
20 A. I heard of Nosic in Latin.
21 Q. Where did Mr. Nosic, where did he come from?
22 A. I do not know because I don't know him
23 personally. I also believe he's not an influential
24 name in the journalistic community, so I didn't pay too
25 much importance to it.
1 Q. Tell me what you do know about him and how is
2 it that you know his name and what you do know of him?
3 A. Absolutely nothing in particular, maybe I
4 came across one of his texts.
5 Q. Did you see any of material sent to Mr. Nosic
6 by Mr. Delalic?
7 A. No. I did not.
8 Q. I take it Mr. Nosic was in Croatia, was he?
9 A. You can assume for yourself, but I do not
11 Q. Well, you've heard of his name, so you must
12 have heard of his name in connection with some place or
13 another, surely?
14 A. During an ordinary day, I would go through
15 four or five Croatian dailies, at the same time
16 listening to the radio and television. And if I am
17 concentrated on the content, I do not think of who
18 wrote a particular text.
19 My motto and what I also realise is that here
20 we dealt with an organised, orchestrated campaign by
21 all the media. I paid attention to some of my
22 colleagues names, colleagues from Bosnia-Herzegovina.
23 And by that time they were also moving slightly towards
24 the side which was on the way to betray the Bosnia
25 principles. I may have come across Mr. Nosic's name.
1 But I don't know anything more about him.
2 I remember, for example, texts by Zlatko
3 Prlenda. And he was one of my editors in Sarajevo.
4 And also one of the people I corroborated with. And
5 his texts were published in Slobodan Dalmatia, and we
6 can talk about him, for example. But as concerns Mr.
7 Nosic, his name doesn't mean anything to me. I may
8 have, in some of the Croatian press, whether in
9 Slobodan Dalmatia, Vetchna, Vijesnik (phoen) or some
10 magazines, or in Globus (phoen). Or paper published in
11 Istria. So at those instances, I could have come
12 across his name or his initials, but that's all I know
13 of him.
14 Q. Now I think that you said in your evidence
15 that you prepared this material so that you could
16 organise a campaign to bring to the light of the day
17 what actually did happen in Konjic and to counter the
18 propaganda that was being perpetrated especially
19 against Mr. Delalic, is that right?
20 A. I believe I have already said that and I
21 state now that in my propaganda material, I wanted to
22 counter negative effects from Mr. Delalic and Bosniaks
23 in general. And these effects were caused by
24 well-organised campaign launched at exactly a
25 particular moment through the Croatian media.
1 Q. Were the attacks on Mr. Delalic perpetrated
2 entirely by Croatian media or were they also media in
3 Bosnia-Herzegovina that was attacking Mr. Delalic?
4 A. Not one of the Bosnia-Herzegovina mediums had
5 anything negative concerning that. There were a
6 certain number of Bosnia media which could be listened
7 to or bought in Croatia, if we're talking about radio
8 or the press. But they would mainly report on the
9 successes of the defenders of Konjic or attempts of
10 people to lift the siege of Sarajevo. But Zejnil
11 Delalic was not mentioned often on Radio Sarajevo,
12 which was my main source of information.
13 Concerning B and H press, during that period
14 there was no mention of his name. And the press at
15 that time could not be found in Croatia. It cannot be
16 found even today in Croatia.
17 Q. So far as you are aware at the time and that
18 you have nothing to suggest otherwise, he was not
19 receiving any adverse publicity or media comment in
21 MS. RESIDOVIC: The witness had said that he
22 did not have that press.
23 THE WITNESS: I do not have it and I cannot
24 precisely answer to your question. I told you I was
25 not in the field and Bosnia-Herzegovina press could not
1 be found in Croatia. And even today one cannot buy it
2 in Croatia.
3 MR. NIEMANN:
4 Q. Now you said that you also decided to
5 exaggerate some parts of the script, did you exaggerate
6 or just lie?
7 A. Both. Both, exaggeration and lying. But I
8 stress because I was instigated by other people's
9 lives, by people who are my professional colleagues,
10 people I attended university with, people that I used
11 to have drinks and go out in Sarajevo before the war.
12 Of course this is contrary to the profession.
13 JUDGE JAN: Microphone not on.
14 MR. NIEMANN: Apparently that has credence in
15 some marriages, it's not one I subscribe to myself.
16 Q. Tell me, how did you expect to bring out the
17 truth, the light of day, by lying?
18 A. Before you repeat the question, because I do
19 not understand it properly. But in 1992 and 1993, when
20 the Belgrade television issued up to 99 per cent of
21 lies about how the Serbs are endangered in
22 Bosnia-Herzegovina and the total picture was one big
23 lie. So the foreign institutions at that time did not
24 react. And at a certain point you've had enough of it
25 and you go over your principles, your moral principles,
1 your professional ethics, because what is in question
2 are your people, are your country.
3 Q. But you have no intention --
4 A. And my family and myself were in a foreign
5 country. But could you now repeat your initial
7 Q. Yes, my initial question is, how could you
8 possibly hope to bring out the truth which was your
9 objective if you're going to do it by a process of
10 telling lies?
11 A. Sir, they were not absolutely all lies. You
12 must know that Zejnil Delalic was made a hero by the
13 Croatian media. It is also a fact that Mr. Delalic,
14 Zejnil, did come to Konjic in March, 1992. And that he
15 said there for a while. He came there because of a
16 tragedy in his family.
17 It is a fact that he joined the defensive
18 forces of the Territorial Defence force of Konjic. It
19 is a fact that as a businessman, he donated equipment
20 and uniforms to our defensive force members. For me,
21 that is material enough to exaggerate some things.
22 Always in the pursuit of the single objective
23 offsetting and refuting much graver accusations against
24 his person would smear him and, in fact, convicted him
25 in advance.
1 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: I think the Trial
2 Chamber will now rise and reassemble at noon.
3 --- Recess taken at 11.30 a.m.
4 --- On resuming at 12.05 p.m.
5 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Mr. Niemann, you may
6 proceed, please.
7 JUDGE JAN: Remind the witness.
8 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Remind the witness he is
9 still under oath.
10 THE REGISTRAR: I should like to remind the
11 witness that you are still testifying under oath.
12 Cross-examined by Mr. Niemann:
13 Q. Mr. Milic, you mentioned the Belgrade media
14 and what they were doing during the course of the war.
15 I take it, that none of the campaign that you were
16 engaged in was directed to anything that was being said
17 about Mr. Delalic in the Belgrade media?
18 A. In the period starting with 1992, the period
19 that I had been in Croatia, I could not have access,
20 direct access to any media to Yugoslavia from Serbia,
21 apart from some contributions, some articles which were
22 just given by way of illustration. In some programmes
23 on Croatian television, or rather in the programme
24 called "Picture by Picture" on Croatian television,
25 those are the only things I could see. And that is not
1 relevant to the period in which I spent in Croatia.
2 What I mentioned had to do with a campaign in
3 which all Serbs were to be mobilised to put up a
4 maximum of defence campaign which sought to project an
5 image of all Croatians as Ustashes, all Croatians on
6 the soil of the former Yugoslavia, and all Muslims on
7 the soil of the former Yugoslavia as Muslim
8 fundamentalists, and as for Slovenians, they were to be
9 shown as people who just lost their way and happened to
10 be just come across Yugoslavia. Macedonians were
11 spared of this image.
12 Q. One of the allegations that you say you want
13 to contend was the issue of the releasing of Serb
14 prisoners from the Celebici camp. How did you know
15 whether or not Mr. Delalic could or couldn't release
16 Serbs from the Celebici camp?
17 A. I know for a fact that, according to what
18 Dzemo said, he had no particular special connections
19 with this camp at Celebici. And my comment, my
20 commentary, was precisely a response to the Croatian
21 campaign. And it is a product, the lie, the Croatian
22 lie, that he released Serbs in order to gain a specific
23 image in Croatian, to project an image of him in the
24 Croatian public. So I responded by -- this is where I
25 say that he was arresting them, et cetera.
1 Q. But the video doesn't mention that, does it,
2 anything about the issue of releasing Serbs, your
4 A. Well, we would perhaps have to view it. I
5 believe that there is a segment which says something
6 about it. I think that there is a picture, a shot,
7 some footage, a talk with Serb prisoners, namely,
8 where they speak about the conditions of their stay at
9 the prison. And I have to admit, when I saw this
10 footage -- the footage was made, by the way, by BiH
11 television. I believe it was Jadranka Milosevic. I
12 was embittered, because she had given them so much room
13 to speak after Ormarska and Manjaca. I was also bitter
14 at the way they looked. I don't think they looked any
15 worse than we here look, whereas I had the images of
16 Ormarska and Manjaca in mind, and they conjured up very
17 bitter feelings in us.
18 Q. But the scenes about Celebici don't speak of
19 the issue of Mr. Delalic, whether or not he was
20 releasing Serb prisoners, from what I can see, anyway.
21 Unless you tell me something differently. I believe
22 there is a section about where Serb prisoners are
23 interviewed, but there is nothing there discussed about
24 whether Mr. Delalic could or couldn't release
1 A. Yes, but, sir, the end of November, 1992,
2 December, 1992, until the end of January, and perhaps
3 the entire month of January, 1993, and all the
4 available media arsenal in Croatia was used to
5 correlate the name of Zejnil Delalic with the release
6 of Serb prisoners. That is the cause why -- excuse
8 Q. It may well have been, but you didn't counter
9 it. That's the point I am trying to make. Did you?
10 A. Would you please repeat that, sir.
11 Q. The Croatian media may well have been
12 directed against Mr. Delalic, because he released Serb
13 prisoners, but you didn't counter it? Where did you
14 counter it? I'm asking you where you did it. You
15 point to a section where Serb prisoners are
16 interviewed, but that doesn't deal with it.
17 A. But, sir, this Croatian anti-propaganda, that
18 is the propaganda against Zejnil Delalic, is something
19 which I wished to neutralise, to eliminate. So I
20 constructed my own sentences, my own section of the
21 text where I projected a quite different image of
22 Zejnil Delalic.
23 Q. Now, you were trying to project an image
24 about Mr. Delalic that he was not favourable towards
25 the Serbs. That was one of your objectives, wasn't it?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Yet the only part of the Celebici footage
3 that we see in the video is a short excerpt where the
4 prisoners are saying how the conditions in Celebici
5 were fine, were good. The food was good, they had
6 three meals a day. That's hardly anti-Serb, is it?
7 A. No, it isn't.
8 Q. I agree that it's probably a lie, but it's
9 not anti-Serb, is it?
10 A. I do not understand.
11 Q. Well, if you are trying to -- if you are
12 trying to produce an image that Mr. Delalic was not
13 favourably disposed towards the Serbs, it hardly helps
14 your campaign to put in a segment where the Serbs are
15 saying how wonderful Celebici is, and what the food and
16 conditions are like, are so wonderful, which is what is
17 said. Witnesses are saying they get three meals a day
18 and conditions are fine.
19 MS. RESIDOVIC: I object Your Honour.
20 JUDGE JAN: -- partly is true and partly
21 exaggerated. This is his stand, it is partly true and
22 partly exaggerated.
23 MS. RESIDOVIC: I object, Your Honours. The
24 witness spoke about the text which he wrote, and he
25 also spoke about the various stories and the way they
1 were edited.
2 A. I don't see why I have to comment on other
3 peoples stories. I can and I want to comment on, and I
4 keep returning to, and I am trying to say to you that,
5 in the absence of other stories, because there was a
6 lack of other stories, we used this one, which perhaps
7 would not have found a place in the final version of
8 the cassette.
9 But I want to highlight my own portion of the
10 text in which I say that Zejnil Delalic set up prisons
11 for Serbs, and I say that in order to defend him from
12 the smear campaign which was being waged against him in
13 Croatia at the time.
14 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Mr. Niemann, I don't
15 know -- it depends on the way you look at the nature of
16 this subject matter, whether it's anyhow perverted of
17 any of the counts which Zejnil Delalic is charged.
18 MR. NIEMANN: It's a direct attack on the
19 Austrian documents, Your Honour. It's directly
20 attacking them, saying that they can't be believed. It
21 runs somewhat counter to the Prosecution case. That's
22 the reason for the cross-examination, Your Honour.
23 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: And while it's admitted
24 that this is put as exaggerated and false in parts?
25 MR. NIEMANN: I am not questioning that, Your
2 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Continue.
3 MR. NIEMANN:
4 Q. Now, can you tell me what parts of the --
5 specifically, what parts of either your commentary or
6 the films that you included, the video clips that you
7 included, tell me specifically what parts of them were
8 lies, so we can clarify that?
9 A. Can we please take the video cassette and
10 then start from sentence by sentence, from the first to
11 the last, story by story. Because you must bear with
12 me, sir, even if you yourself had to analyse something
13 that you wrote yesterday, you would not accept to do
14 it. And I certainly cannot do it with something which
15 I wrote in 1993 in this place. So I need to see the
16 entire video cassette, from the first to the last
17 sentence, to analyse it one by one for that purpose.
18 Q. You just tell me about your highlights. You
19 saw it on the weekend, you told us, you wrote it
20 yourself, you are likely to know more about it than
21 anyone else here in this courtroom. When it comes to
22 telling a lie, it takes quite a bit of an effort to
23 tell a lie, so you must know the highlights. You tell
24 us which ones are the main lies.
25 MS. RESIDOVIC: Your Honours, but a specific
1 question requires a basis, so that the witness might
2 know what he is being asked.
3 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: But the witness said the
4 whole theme of the videotape consists of exaggerations
5 and lies. All the Prosecution is asking for, what do
6 you think a lie is, and what do you think exaggeration
7 is? I think it's fairly easy for anybody to know which
8 of them is a lie and which of them is exaggerated. He
9 need not speak of all of them. He can speak of those
10 he remembers. That should be enough.
11 MS. RESIDOVIC: Your Honours, the witness has
12 answered my questions as to the lies which he has said,
13 so I thought that that perhaps should be drawn
14 attention to.
15 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: (Microphone off)
16 A. Excuse me. Let me just make something
17 clear. What lies -- what lies are there in my text?
18 What are lies? What are the lies in my text? That is
19 what you are asking.
20 MR. NIEMANN:
21 Q. That's what I want to know, yes.
22 A. I exaggerated at the very start, when I said
23 that Zejnil Delalic had come and formed a defence
24 headquarters, an underground defence headquarters. The
25 truth is that he came for the funeral of his late
1 brother --
2 Q. (No microphone)
3 A. Which --
4 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Let him complete his
5 answers before you interpose. Kindly complete what you
6 regard as exaggeration, please.
7 A. So the truth is that because of the scourge,
8 the misfortune which befell our homeland, he joined the
9 defensive forces of our Army. And the truth is that he
10 is big businessmen, well-known businessman on the soil
11 of the former Yugoslavia, generally, and that he is
12 well-liked by the people, by our people, as a great
13 humanitarian worker. The truth is that, de facto, he
14 spent all that time in the field, and that he took
15 occasional trips to Zagreb; that he worked as a
16 charitable humanitarian worker; and also partly joined
17 in the struggle.
18 It is also true that taking the itinerary, as
19 described in my last text, he reached Vienna. That is
20 true. Everything else is my superstructure, additional
21 constructions, my exaggerations and my
22 interpretations. And if you analyse the entire text,
23 with more attention from the first to the last word,
24 then it sounds quite fine and effective,
25 chronologically observed.
1 Q. Now, do you often lie professionally, or just
3 A. So that is a private question, a question I
4 view as private, and I cannot answer. I have the right
5 not to answer. But as regards this particular
6 material, I lied deliberately and consciously in order
7 to refute the lies of others which inspired me in my
8 propaganda work. And, please, bear in mind the
9 terminology used, a lie and the propaganda, two
10 different things, two different specific gravities.
11 And I should like us to speak on the subject of
12 propaganda, not lies, please.
13 Q. Now, the last segment that we saw on
14 television, where Mr. Delalic was speaking himself, and
15 reading it out, which we saw as now Exhibit 185. The
16 text of that, you didn't write that, did you?
17 A. No.
18 Q. And that was a part that was attached to the
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. So, in fact, Mr. Delalic did participate in
22 the making of the tape?
23 A. No, he did not.
24 Q. Now, did Mr. Delalic request you to
25 exaggerate and lie himself?
1 A. Well, sir, if you follow the course of the
2 conversation we had today and the one on Friday, I
3 never had any contact with Mr. Delalic, Zejnil, in that
4 period. It was through Dzemo that I found out that
5 Zejnil Delalic was not happy with my work, and the
6 involvement of his family, and that he said that he was
7 grateful, that he thanked us, but that he had decided
8 to seek legal redress to the entire situation, this
9 whole injustice -- in relation to all the injustice and
10 all the evil with had been done him.
11 Q. -- Dzemal Delalic, or Mr. Ciso, did either of
12 them tell you you should lie or exaggerate?
13 A. No. On the contrary, they actually sought to
14 restrain me, to talk me out of it. After the first
15 working version was prepared, after I had prepared it,
16 then they drew attention to me, where I had exaggerated
17 things, where I did not portray faithfully the
18 situation in the field, but having the material
19 available, in front of me, the HTV material, the
20 Croatian television material that is, and having my own
21 objective in mind, I myself decided to formulate the
22 text in the way you have it before you today.
23 Q. And when you told Mr. Dzemal Delalic and
24 Mr. Ciso to prepare the video clippings, did you
25 instruct them to lie and exaggerate in the way it was
1 to be presented?
2 A. No, sir. No. I had no reason to do that.
3 Especially because they said that they had many, many
4 of those shots, clippings, and I asked them to bring as
5 many as possible to me, so that I could use them for
6 illustration purposes. I had not addressed any special
7 requests at that period. The only thing which I asked
8 them to do is when it came to the -- too long, the
9 anaemic, the still life scenes to be eliminated, then
10 this man, who was practically convicted and smeared in
11 the public and gravely accused, I wanted him to be
12 shown in the forefront. I wanted the camera to show
13 him in the forefront. And they took me literally. So
14 they had them speaking there for five or ten minutes at
15 a time.
16 MR. NIEMANN: That's all I have, Your
18 JUDGE JAN: Just one question. Was this tape
19 shown on any television ever?
20 A. No. In fact, I don't know what came of it
21 after this time, after the time I gave it last to
22 Vejsil, what happened to it, where it went. I really
23 have no idea, absolutely. Basically, it is an abortive
24 project of mine, an incomplete project of mine, and I
25 regret the fact that it has been abused in this way.
1 JUDGE JAN: Thank you very much.
2 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Any re-examination?
3 MS. RESIDOVIC: No, thank you, Your Honours.
4 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Thank you very much,
5 Mr. Ekrem. We are very grateful for your assistance.
6 I think that is all for you. You are discharged. You
7 can go.
8 (The witness withdrew)
9 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Do we have another
11 MS. RESIDOVIC: Your Honour, this morning we
12 submitted to you a written submission to the Trial
13 Chamber, and despite all our efforts we were unable to
14 provide a witness -- one witness over this week. In
15 addition to what I have written, I have received two
16 fax messages from Sarajevo, in the television of
17 Bosnia-Herzegovina, informing me that the persons
18 supposed to appear as witnesses are unable to do so
19 because of their professional commitments, so that they
20 cannot come and appear before the Trial Chamber this
22 In addition to everything which I have said
23 and written in our written submission, and in view of
24 these faxes which I received this morning, I could give
25 you additional information, but, please, bear with me
1 and appreciate the fact that Mr. Delalic's Defence
2 Counsel has done everything in order to follow the
3 instructions of this Court.
4 So may I now ask the usher to show you these
5 two faxes which I received this morning, so that these
6 people should be relieved of their obligation to appear
7 before this Court this week, because they are unable to
8 do so.
9 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Mr. Niemann, have you
10 any comments on this?
11 MR. NIEMANN: No, we don't have any comments,
12 Your Honours. We are ready to proceed.
13 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Ms. Residovic, how many
14 of the witnesses indicated here are unable to come?
15 Because you have over seven witnesses left. I see
16 there are -- how many of the witnesses -- only two here
17 who cannot come. So you still have outstanding many
18 other witnesses --
19 MS. RESIDOVIC: Your Honours, we have three
20 witnesses out of seven on this list because after all
21 of our attempts, today we managed to get these two
22 faxes and this was their response to our request,
23 although my colleagues in my office in Sarajevo are
24 trying to get in contact with another three witnesses
25 and their employees, to get a permission to leave. And
1 until now, we still did not receive their employer's
2 answers. Last week we interrupted Mr. Alic's business
3 trip, together with two people from Austria. Few
4 people managed to change their schedules.
5 So far, as I said, for two people, we have
6 received faxes this morning. And the remaining three
7 still did not give their final response because we
8 suspect they will remain unable to change their
9 professional obligations until the 22nd of June. And
10 they all would be available after the 16th when this
11 witness is to return from the United States. And our
12 witnesses are at disposal of the Court on the 16th
13 already. But this week we cannot bring anybody. Maybe
14 we could transfer that to the next week because from
15 what we received, nobody can come before the 16th. And
16 only a week after that we could start calling up our
18 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: This was not the
19 information you had before now. What I am saying, at
20 the time you indicated you're unable to call any of
21 these witnesses, you did not have reasons why they
22 could not come, other than they are professionally
23 engaged somehow. But not with respect to all of them.
24 This is what I mean. Those who are not so engaged
25 could have come and you could have left out those who
1 are so engaged, those who have official records to
2 tender. And all those who you perhaps you got, and not
3 involved in their professional duties and what
4 professional duties not stated. That has understated.
5 So we can find that you have not even given
6 sufficient reasons why the Trial Chamber should
7 exercise this discretion. Perhaps you took a very
8 different view as to why adjournment must be granted.
9 An adjournment is a discretionary remedy. And there
10 should be valid reasons why such an adjournment should
11 be granted. And you can see from your own position
12 that you did not give any reasons whatsoever, other
13 than professional engagement which people have. How
14 can a Trial Chamber, without knowing what the
15 professional is, go out exercising a discretion on
16 behalf of a witness?
17 MS. RESIDOVIC: Your Honours, if you allow.
18 As you know, we planned a list of 54 witnesses and we
19 contacted all the managers in the companies where those
20 witnesses work. And all the commanders of the unit if
21 they're in the military. And we had scheduled dated
22 July 15th. But following your instructions, we reduced
23 the list for 20 people and then we shortened our
24 questions. We put them down to a fewer number, so that
25 you would not think that we do not take your suggestion
1 seriously. And the schedule that we had with managers
2 and commanders of brigades has been significantly
3 changed. And when I saw that we would have an empty
4 period, we put our maximum efforts to press on some
5 other witnesses and for five of them we have managed
6 to, and we have seen them before the Court until
7 today. But from what you can see here, three people
8 can not come due to reasons I have stated. And then
9 the one person from the archives cannot be available
10 before the 12th, but that fax I have not received yet.
11 There's an additional person who is a soldier
12 and we do not have the army's permission for him. We
13 have done everything in our power. There are two
14 people and we spoke with their employers and we
15 arranged that they would come at the beginning of
16 July. We approached their employers to enable their
17 employees to come earlier to the Court. But we have
18 not received their answer in a written form. I can
19 only convey that to you in an oral way. We haven't
20 received faxes which would confirm that. But we are
21 doing our best. We reduced the list, which saves
22 significant amounts to the court.
23 And if during the day I receive anything
24 additional for anybody, we will forward that to you,
25 but we did not receive any official document. I do not
1 wish to obstruct the plans or life of a witness, but at
2 the same time I try to meet the requests of the
3 Chamber. And I also believe that you have accepted
4 many proposals done by the Prosecution. I approached
5 the Chamber again because I hoped that you would be
6 able to understand that these witnesses are of crucial
7 importance for our Defence. That Mr. Delalic would be
8 punished if they were not given an opportunity to
9 testify about the facts which are relevant to his
11 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: -- to be exercising
12 professional judgement. When you have witnesses who
13 have agreed to testify and you find it difficult to get
14 them to come here on their own, except with the consent
15 of their employers, as Counsel, you should know what to
16 do. And if you have failed to do that which is good
17 and in the interest of your clients, then you're
18 failing in your duties towards your client and that is
19 sufficiently negligent for any Counsel.
20 I have watched and observed the way you've
21 conducted this question of these witnesses. Your first
22 reaction was to give a blanket reason and all
23 professionally engaged and cannot come before that you
24 have named. That was the approach. That is the first
25 thing you did.
1 Now one of the custodians of records -- I
2 don't know which of them because there are two here --
3 is unable to come. What of the other one? If from the
4 beginning you knew these details. You knew how each
5 witness was engaged or had difficulties in coming.
6 Counsel should know what to do to break through such
7 difficulties and force the hands of their players to
8 release a person. But I suppose you had other ideas,
9 not seriously wanting them to come. Because you would
10 not come on the 8th to ask for these witnesses to
11 come. Nobody does that. At least no counsel. And
12 here I put counsel in its proper context, should do
13 that. Because all you are doing is to tell the Trial
14 Chamber to refuse your application. Because there's
15 nothing we can do about this. Even if we granted your
16 application, it would not mean anything. Because you
17 have been dealing with these witnesses for a long
18 time. And you should have known their problems and
19 should have known to learned how to correct these
21 MS. RESIDOVIC: Your Honours, we scheduled
22 our witnesses according to the testimony plan put
23 together by the Chamber. If a witness goes on a
24 business trip to the United States, that is not
25 something we can do there. I would like it best that
1 we, if we could have those people here and we did
2 everything in our power for the situation to be so. I
3 don't know where Your Honours get this impression that
4 you would want to stall the proceeding. Two months
5 ago, we asked whether the custodians of record could
6 wrap up their work, but they have not. All the
7 witnesses have wished to come, but they cannot. You've
8 heard of what they think of subpoenas.
9 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: If you look at one of
10 these witnesses who is unable to come, is coming to
11 give evidence in respect of conditions in Celebici.
12 These are matters in respect of which you've been
13 calling witnesses. If you knew he's unable to come
14 about now, why did you call them all here? In which
15 case they would not be in your way. Because that
16 evidence you have led in respect of some cases. Some
17 other witness have given evidence in respect of certain
18 things. And this is why when I make a comment, I do
19 not make it without supporting facts. I have my
20 reasons why I make that. Because I say very
21 experienced Counsel, you have an overview of evidence
22 of all your witnesses. And you know what each is
23 coming to say. Clearly, there's no question of telling
24 us now that after some time this witness will now come
25 to say what some other people have said, perhaps in a
1 better way. I don't know, you know your case.
2 JUDGE JAN: It is interesting. You are
3 asking us to wait to the convenience of the witness.
4 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, Your Honour.
5 JUDGE JAN: You're telling the Court to wait
6 to the convenience of the witnesses. This is a very
7 interesting position to take.
8 MS. RESIDOVIC: No, Your Honours. We gave an
9 alternative suggestion. This witness in question, he
10 was on a seminar in Washington and has been there since
11 the half of May. And I knew that he would be here on
12 the 16th. But had we not given up the 20 witnesses, he
13 would have been here at the time beginning of June. So
14 we planned that we also at that time call up the
15 custodian of record. And by your suggestions, we
16 reduced the number of witnesses. I believe this is
17 also in the Defence's interest not to repeat things.
18 But this poses a new obstacle to us. Because
19 from this courtroom we could not react in any other
20 way, which would be more efficient. We have brought
21 five people who were planned to come later. But with
22 these five, we did not manage to deal with the problems
23 of other witnesses who could, according to the
24 schedule, come only come in July. But now we can now
25 see that they cannot be here before the 16th. This was
1 not a mistake on the part of the Defence or the
3 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: You tendered your reply
4 to the Prosecution's request for your list of
5 witnesses. Have you seen your reply? It's not a
6 question of inability to get them, to get your
7 witnesses. The only reason there was that you've
8 appealed against a ruling and, therefore, you could not
9 give a list of witnesses. Not because your witnesses
10 cannot be called. I hope I am not wrong in
11 interpreting any way I have done. You look at your
12 response. The 5th of June, that was your response to
13 the Prosecution's request for a list of witnesses.
14 MS. RESIDOVIC: Your Honours, it is possible
15 that we responded to the Prosecution, but I have stated
16 the same arguments as I am stating today to you before
17 you made your decision. And this was also mentioned in
18 the appeal on the sequence of calling up witnesses. So
19 this was always the arguments connected to the
20 professional inability, professional schedule of
21 witnesses to come and we couldn't influence it. We did
22 our best to adjust our plan to the Chamber. So my
23 arguments from before are written appeal and what we
24 are approaching you with today are based on the same
1 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Not the position in your
2 -- list of witnesses dated 2nd of June. The list of
3 witnesses, it's to 14. And the ones you say cannot
4 appear because of professional duties or professional
5 engagements. Now when I looked at it at that time, it
6 did not even specify which of them it was against. It
7 was a blanket condition for all of them.
8 But I know that's not possible. It cannot be
9 all of them. If at that time you knew only one, two,
10 three or so are those who are engaged, what of the
11 other ones who were not so involved? They too could
12 not come. This is the assumption you had. That
13 because three cannot, the others also could not. That
14 is not the way to treat a Trial Chamber.
15 MS. RESIDOVIC: I apologise, Your Honours, if
16 you understood me that way. All 14 were unable to
17 come. But in the meantime, through family connections,
18 we found Mr. Alic in Austria and he could interrupt his
19 professional duties for awhile and come here. And then
20 also Mr. Velic, whose wife recently passed away, we
21 persuaded him to come here as well as two people from
22 Austria. All 14, I repeat, did have obligations, but
23 five of them were able to change circumstances and
24 appear before the Chamber. But for all the others,
25 until at this moment, we were unable to. And we have
1 an official report for three and for the other three we
2 are missing an official report. But we did our best.
3 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Mr. Delalic is in
5 MS. RESIDOVIC: I do know, Your Honours.
6 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: People who are unable to
7 give up their professional engagements in the interest
8 of someone who is in custody. This is a more important
9 thing. He's in custody,. He wants his case closed, so
10 that you know what else to do. And we've already
11 applied to the Trial Chamber as to how to organise his
12 Defence in respect of closing it and then making a
13 submission. You've done that. Then why do these
14 questions arise about people who are unable to come?
15 Can't you see the conflict between that desire to
16 expedite trial and the possibility of your witness
17 coming to testify? When we should expedite a trial,
18 you give yourself, the Prosecution and for the Trial
19 Chamber to decide the procedure to be adopted. At the
20 same time you're not getting your witnesses here, so
21 that the case will be closed. And the procedure you
22 are advocating should be adopted.
23 MS. RESIDOVIC: Yes, Your Honours. It might
24 look contradictory to our... But since the beginning
25 of the separation of proceedings, we wanted to expedite
1 the proceeding as much as possible. But between a
2 quick and a fair trial, there's a difference because we
3 would need only several days for these few witnesses.
4 And this would be crucial for the Defence to hear what
5 they have to testify about. And this is in the best
6 interest of my client, especially because like some of
7 them like, Byron Deric (phoen), provided us with a tape
8 which was submitted and accepted as evidence concerning
9 the conditions in the camp in Celebici. And they're
10 important so you get a picture of the real truth. And
11 they are in the best interest of the accused.
12 And the Prosecution was also in a similar
13 position. And then they would approach us, the
14 Defence, to have an understanding for the obstacles
15 they had in bringing their witnesses, which we did, we
16 met their request. And this would be in the best
17 interest of the Defence. And I plead to you that this
18 time you would have an understanding for us and within
19 the three days, we might be able to listen to
20 testimonies of all those witnesses.
21 If somebody calls me up and tells me that the
22 witness could come here tomorrow, we would be happy to
23 have that. But there was no way. I spoke to my
24 colleagues in my office in Sarajevo and out of all the
25 requests we sent to employers, we received only three.
1 For one of them it is stated he is unavailable until
2 the 12th of July and I do not intend to wait for him
3 until then. We will then skip that witness. But there
4 are certain witnesses who could come earlier.
5 JUDGE JAN: I was just wondering if the
6 football final was more important than the proceedings
7 in this Court. I was just wondering.
8 MS. RESIDOVIC: Your Honours, I cannot
9 comment on that. We have an alternative request. If
10 we think that this particular witness should be here,
11 we would ask of you to issue a subpoena. But in the
12 sense of amicus curiae, what does it mean for people
13 who wish to come in our conditions? You've heard five
14 witnesses who were delivered a subpoena. They all
15 wanted to come even without it. But the issue is
16 whether they can come at the time appropriate for the
18 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Okay, we give your
19 ruling after the break at 2.30 when we reassemble.
20 --- Luncheon recess taken at 12.55 p.m.
1 --- On resuming at 2.40 p.m.
2 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: I indicated when we were
3 rising that we'll give a short ruling now in respect of
4 the arguments and we'll follow this up with a more
5 comprehensive ruling.
6 Now, this ruling is on the submission brought
7 by Ms. Residovic on the alternative request for renewed
8 consideration of Delalic's motion for adjournment until
9 the June 22nd, 1998, or a request for issue of
10 subpoenas to individuals, and request for assistance to
11 the Government of Bosnia and Herzegovina.
12 Now , this morning -- I think this motion was
13 filed this morning. It was proceeded by the motion on
14 the 2nd of June where, in the list of witnesses to be
15 called, Counsel indicated that the witnesses numbers 8
16 to 14 will be unable to attend to testify, because they
17 have indicated their inability to travel to The Hague
18 before the week 22nd to the 26th June.
19 Counsel was aware that the current witnesses
20 for the accused, who listed first to seven, were likely
21 to conclude giving the evidence not later than Monday,
22 the 8th of June. The Trial Chamber's task, which is
23 revising the lists submitted on the 2nd June, rejected
24 the application and told Counsel to continue with the
25 list of witnesses without interruption.
1 The application for adjournment was
2 rejected. Counsel was told, clearly and firmly, to
3 close the case of the accused at the conclusion of the
4 last available witness.
5 On the 3rd June, Counsel gave notice of
6 appeal against the decision of the Trial Chamber. On
7 the 4th of June, the Prosecution filed a motion seeking
8 disclosure of the names of the witnesses of the first
9 accused. On the 5th of June, the first accused replied
10 that, in view of the notice of appeal filed, there is
11 no obligation to give such notice 'til after the
12 termination of their appeal.
13 The application filed this morning before the
14 Trial Chamber seeks, (a), adjournment 'til 22nd, June
15 '98, and (b), request to issue subpoenas to
16 individuals and to the Government of
18 It is interesting to observe that the grounds
19 for adjournment is that the witnesses for the accused
20 are unable to reschedule their commitments to be able
21 to appear in the Trial Chamber for the 22nd to 26th of
22 June. This is an insufficient reason to support the
23 application for adjournment.
24 Counsel is familiar with the case of the
25 accused, knows the witnesses and their testimony.
1 Counsel had sufficient time to organise its witnesses,
2 consistent with their private engagements. It is
3 clearly not for the Trial Chamber to wait for their
4 convenience, except where this is justified by the
5 circumstances. The witnesses sought to be called have
6 been known to cancel for quite a long time, and their
7 commitment should have been known and taken into
8 account in the calling of witnesses.
9 Counsel is only today applying for subpoenas
10 for witnesses to appear. There is no list of the names
11 of witnesses or why subpoenas should be issued.
12 Counsel has not disclosed that witnesses cannot appear
13 to give evidence without the issue of subpoenas. We
14 also asked for request for assistance under Article 29
15 of the Tribunal Statutes through the Government of
16 Bosnia-Herzegovina for assistance. There is no
17 evidence that that government has been approached for
18 assistance and she has refused to do so.
19 It is well settled that the granting of an
20 adjournment is exercise of a judicial discretion. A
21 Trial Chamber being approached for the exercise of that
22 distraction must be giving credible reasons why the
23 application should be granted.
24 I examined the reasons given by Counsel and
25 find no basis on which it could exercise a discretion
1 to grant both the adjournment sought and the
2 application for the subpoenas. We reject the
4 Now, as it is, Counsel should know what to
5 do, and we call upon Counsel to decide to close its
6 case. I am following up with this. We expect Counsel
7 for the second accused to call evidence in respect of
8 the second accused on the 22nd of June. We've already
9 lost the whole of this week because of what I regard as
10 ineffectiveness in Counsel trying to put forward its
11 witnesses, but we expect Counsel for Mucic to lead
12 evidence from the 22nd of June. Thank you.
13 I think this is all we have for the day and
14 nothing more. So the Trial Chamber will now rise.
15 --- Whereupon proceedings adjourned at
16 2.50 p.m., to be reconvened on
17 Tuesday, on the 9th day of June,
18 1998, at 10.00 a.m.