1 --- Monday, 29 June, 1998
2 --- Upon commencing at 10.07 a.m.
3 (In open session)
4 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Good morning, ladies and
5 gentlemen. Have the appearances, please.
6 MS. McHENRY: Good morning, Your Honours.
7 Teresa McHenry for the Prosecution, along with
8 Mr. Turone and Mr. Huber. Mr. Niemann is in another
9 courtroom and will be joining us later on today. Thank
11 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Thank you very much.
12 Have appearances for the Defence, please.
13 MS. RESIDOVIC: Good morning, Your Honours.
14 I am Edina Residovic, Defence Counsel for Mr. Zejnil
15 Delalic. My co-counsel is my colleague, professor from
16 Canada, Eugene O'Sullivan. Thank you.
17 MR. KUZMANOVIC: Good morning, Your Honours.
18 Tomislav Kuzmanovic, along with a legal assistant,
19 Mr. Duric, on behalf of Zdravko Mucic. Mr. Olujic
20 should return next week. Thank you.
21 MR. KARABDIC: Good morning, Your Honours.
22 My name is Salih Karabdic, attorney from Sarajevo
23 defending Mr. Hazim Delic. Mr. Hazim Delic is defended
24 also by Mr. Thomas Moran, attorney from Houston,
1 MS. McMURREY: Good morning, Your Honours. I
2 am Cynthia McMurrey representing Esad Landzo.
3 Ms. Nancy Boler our co-counsel should return from
4 Bosnia this afternoon, and joining me today is our
5 legal assistant and attorney from Houston, Texas, Mr.
6 Ken Lindsey.
7 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: We are starting with the
8 Defence of Hazim Delic this morning. You also said you
9 rearranged the Defence list.
10 MR. MORAN: Your Honour, we had some
11 transportation problems. Frankly, what happened is
12 they ran out of seats on the aeroplane. It was so tight
13 that our witnesses flew in business class, which makes
14 me very jealous.
15 There should be two more witnesses arriving
16 tomorrow and then our subpoenaed witnesses, we know
17 that the subpoenas have arrived in Bosnia. We have an
18 application for another subpoena. But we can talk
19 about those problems a little later, Your Honours.
20 MS. McMURREY: Your Honours, if I might. I
21 received an order from the court on Friday ordering
22 that I be prepared to answer some questions that the
23 court had about subpoena duces tecum, and I am prepared
24 to discuss that this morning briefly. But also I filed
25 an emergency motion on Friday asking the court to order
1 the Prosecution to disclose the suspects in my case.
2 So sometime today I would like to have that heard.
3 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: We will file that.
4 Thank you.
5 MS. McMURREY: Thank you.
6 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Mr. Karabdic, you start
7 with your first witness.
8 MR. KARABDIC: I would like to present a
9 brief opening argument, Your Honours.
10 The purpose of this opening argument is to
11 show how to present the basic facts, basic data on the
12 witnesses and other evidence to be led by the Defence,
13 and also to show how this makes part of this whole
15 We will thus be making it possible and we
16 will be showing to the Tribunal how to understand and
17 how to interpret our evidence. All the witnesses and
18 the evidence that we will be presenting will aim at
19 contesting and challenging and casting reasonable doubt
20 on the evidence presented by the Prosecution.
21 The evidence presented will, first of all,
22 relate to the basic facts alleged in the indictment,
23 the general allegations, and also the allegations
24 concerning all the accused and, in particular, the
25 first three of the accused.
1 Our evidence will show that the arrests that
2 took place in the Municipality of Konjic, the arrests
3 of persons later to be detained in the Celebici prison,
4 were carried out because these persons did not obey the
5 laws of the State of Bosnia-Herzegovina because they
6 illegally carried weapons, they attacked legal armed
7 forces, and prevented the freedom of movements on
8 roads, and both the general allegations and the
9 particular charges relating to the illegal detention of
10 civilians, that all will be refuted.
11 Our witnesses will be talking about that,
12 Cosic, Ramic and Djajic. We will in particular refute
13 the allegations of the Prosecution and their witnesses,
14 who claim that these persons were not Bosnia citizens.
15 We will call Ms. Amira Klaric, she is the
16 registrar of the Konjic municipality, and she is the
17 custodian of the registries of births, deaths and
18 marriages, and also of citizenship in the Municipality
19 of Konjic. Her testimony will show that all the
20 persons indicated herein as victims or mentioned in the
21 indictment or who testified here as witnesses and other
22 persons mentioned in documents tendered here by the
23 Prosecution, it will show that these persons are all
24 citizens of Bosnia-Herzegovina in the relevant times.
25 In particular, Ms. Klaric will be presenting
1 over 180 documents relating to the registries of births
2 and citizenship and marriages. This all relates to the
3 Prosecution witnesses and persons mentioned in the
5 We will also call witnesses who will prove
6 that in the Celebici prison, that the conditions in the
7 Celebici prison were as good as possible under the
8 circumstances prevalent at the times. We will prove
9 that prisoners got the food the same as other citizens,
10 and the same amounts of food as the soldiers at the
11 frontlines. We will prove that they had adequate water
12 supply, that they had visitation rights, and that they
13 had the right to be visited three times a week, that
14 they had medical care. Again, I stress under the
15 conditions prevalent at the time in Konjic, the medical
16 care was as good as could be provided.
17 Our witnesses, Dzajic, Ibrahimi, Sevajdin and
18 others, will be talking about that. Furthermore, we
19 will call an expert witness, Dr. Eduardo Bellas, as a
20 forensic pathologist. He will testify relating to the
21 credibility of many of the Prosecution witnesses.
22 Dr. Bellas examined portions of the transcript and he
23 will continue to do so, and other parts of the
24 transcript that we will submit to him where Prosecution
25 witnesses described numerous injuries and the
1 conditions in the camp. We expect that Mr. Bellas will
2 be testifying to the effect that, on the basis of his
3 knowledge and experience, that many Prosecution
4 witnesses, that their testimony was not credible or
6 The Defence will furthermore present
7 witnesses and lead evidence regarding the defendant,
8 Mr. Hazim Delic. We will call Dr. Buturovic, who
9 should testify about injuries sustained by Mr. Delic,
10 and his ability to walk and work in the months relevant
11 for the indictment.
12 We will also, in particular, call witnesses
13 who will challenge the testimony of Grozdana Cecez and
14 Milojka Antic, the witnesses who, according to those
15 two, were present during the events that they had
16 testified about, and the testimony of our witnesses
17 will refute the statements of those two Prosecution
18 witnesses. Our witnesses are Cosic and Ibrahimi as to
19 that fact.
20 So that would be, briefly, all I have to say,
21 and, with your permission, I would now like to call
22 witness Ziam Cosic.
23 MS. McMURREY: I'm sorry. While we are
24 waiting, our LiveNote transcript is not working over
25 here. I think it's merely unplugged. If I could have
1 technical assistance on that. Thank you.
2 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Swear the witness,
4 MR. KUZMANOVIC: Your Honours, may I suggest
5 it be read aloud in English, then it can be translated
6 and then he can read it.
7 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Yes.
8 THE REGISTRAR: Witness, if you could repeat
9 me. I solemnly declare --
10 THE WITNESS: I solemnly declare.
11 THE REGISTRAR: -- that I will speak the
12 truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
13 THE WITNESS: The whole truth and nothing but
14 the truth.
15 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Take your seat, please.
16 MR. KARABDIC: If I may start.
17 WITNESS: Zaim Cosic
18 Examined by Mr. Karabdic
19 Q. Good morning, sir.
20 A. Good morning.
21 Q. My name is Salih Karabdic, I am the Defence
22 Counsel for Mr. Hazim Delic. I will be asking some
23 questions, but before I start to examine you, I would
24 like to warn you of certain facts and give you certain
25 instructions of a technical nature.
1 Both you and I, we speak the Bosnian language
2 and we could be asking questions and giving answers
3 rather quickly. However, in accordance with the rules
4 and the statute of this Tribunal, all the testimony is
5 interpreted into English and French and it takes time
6 to do so. And that's why I would like to ask you not
7 to give your answer immediately, but to wait a while,
8 after I finish asking the questions, and then to give
9 your answer. Many of the questions you will be able to
10 answer with just "yes" and "no," but, please, don't do
11 so by nodding your head, but indicate clearly and
12 loudly "yes" and "no," because every word here is being
13 recorded, and the ladies in charge of that are unable
14 to note down your nodding.
15 Will you please give your full name to the
17 A. My name is Ziam Cosic.
18 Q. When were you born and where?
19 A. I was born on the 30th of September, 1956, in
21 Q. And where do you live?
22 A. I reside at Idbar.
23 Q. What is your ethnic background?
24 A. My ethnic background is Bosniak.
25 Q. And what is your citizenship?
1 A. Bosnia-Herzegovina.
2 Q. And your marital status? Do you have any
4 A. I am married, father of five.
5 Q. What is your education?
6 A. I finished my primary education in Celebici
7 and graduated from high school in Sarajevo.
8 Q. What kind of a high school?
9 A. Carpentry.
10 Q. Did you do your national service in the JNA,
11 and if yes, please tell us when and where.
12 A. I started my national service on the 13th of
13 December, 1975, and I served in the JNA until the 3rd
14 of March, 1977. Yes, that's right, 1977.
15 Q. Where did you serve your national service?
16 A. In Prizen. That's in Kosovo.
17 MR. MORAN: Excuse me, Your Honours, the
18 television screen that normally shows what's happening
19 in the courtroom when we are in public session is
20 flickering, and I am not sure whether we are in a
21 public session or in a private session. We are
22 supposed to be in public session. I said I would
23 inform the court of that.
24 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Thank you very much.
25 MR. KARABDIC:
1 Q. While in the JNA, did you have any special
3 A. I graduated from a school in Prizen. That
4 was for the squad leader. And then I was appointed to
5 the function of the commander of the watch tower
6 Stojanovac at the Yugoslav Albanian border. And then I
7 was given the rank of Vodnik. That's Corporal.
8 Q. When you came back from the army, naturally,
9 as everybody else, you had to report to your military
10 department. Were you assigned to a certain duty or a
11 certain post?
12 A. I was assigned combat post in the municipal
13 headquarters in Konjic, the municipal headquarters of
14 the Territorial Defence.
15 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Would you kindly please
16 go to the type of evidence he is here to give. It is
17 not an issue in this matter.
18 MR. KARABDIC: I will strive to ask
19 questions, but it seems to me that this would be also
20 important for the understanding of the ensuing events.
21 But, thank you, Your Honours, for your caution. I will
23 Q. You said that you lived in the village of
24 Idbar. How large is this village? How many
1 A. Until the war, my village had around 120
2 households and around 400 inhabitants. About 15
3 households were Serbian, three Croatian, and the rest
4 were Bosniaks.
5 Q. What is the geographical location of the
7 A. Idbar is in a valley surrounded by hills on
8 all sides, and there is a nice river flowing from Idbar
9 to Celebici. And the only route is the canyon of the
10 ^ Bastovic River.
11 Q. You told me that there were several people of
12 several ethnic backgrounds in your village before the
13 war. What were the relations between those various
14 nationalities in your village?
15 A. The relations were good until that time when
16 the Serbs held some kind of a plebiscite.
17 Q. Please, what happened in April, 1992, in your
18 village and in the surrounding areas? What contributed
19 to the changes in the circumstances and the conditions?
20 A. In early April, right at the beginning, Serbs
21 left. All the state authorities, such as the
22 Territorial Defence, the Ministry of the Interior, they
23 refused to recognise the independent state of
25 Q. I would like you to limit your answers to
1 your village. What happened in your village and the
2 surrounding villages?
3 A. Well, in the village itself there was
4 disorder. Roads were blocked by the Serbs, because
5 between my village, my hamlet and Celebici, there is a
6 Serbian hamlet, and they refused to participate
7 together with us in the defence of our country against
8 the aggression.
9 Q. How did you organise in your village in
10 relation to these events?
11 A. It wasn't easy. For us, this was something
12 completely abnormal and it was difficult to find your
13 way around in a situation like this when Chetniks came
14 from Nevesinge in the neighbouring Village of Bijela.
15 Q. How did these Chetniks behave in the Village
16 of Bijela and what kind of influence did this have on
17 your village?
18 A. Three young men immediately left our village
20 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Don't you think we'll be
21 much more interested in Delic than the experience of
22 this witness.
23 MR. KARABDIC:
24 Q. Thank you, I will try to do that, but,
25 believe me, I will -- I am also trying to present all
1 the things that have to do with general allegations,
2 but I will try to be as short as possible. Thank you
3 very much, Your Honour.
4 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: We've heard so much from
5 so many witnesses about general disorganisation, about
6 that area, about that time. I don't think he can add
7 more to what all those who were actually participating
8 in it could say. We're here interested in the Defence
9 of the witness you've called, not of this witness, but
10 of the accused person who is here to be his witness.
11 MR. KARABDIC: Your Honour, Your Honour, it
12 is true that many have spoken about that here because
13 many have been witnesses here, a couple of generals,
14 brigadiers, commanders. This is a man from the
15 village, from life. And this man should tell us about
16 this life. I wanted him to tell us what it was like on
17 the ground. But, Your Honour, this is what it's
19 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Mr. Delic.
20 MR. KARABDIC: I will certainly try to that.
21 I can't do it immediately, but all this is Defence.
22 Q. Mr. Cosic, did you in the village find out
23 that the other inhabitants, the Serbs, are buying
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. How did you find out about that?
2 A. In the hamlet, which was mostly inhabited by
3 the Serbs, there are two Bosniak families and they
4 watched these things happening over night and they were
5 telling this to the Territorial Defence.
6 JUDGE JAN: Please come directly to the
7 point, your Defence.
8 MR. KARABDIC:
9 Q. Was a Territorial Defence unit formed in the
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Who was the commander of that unit?
13 A. I was.
14 Q. Who decided that you should be the commander
15 of that unit?
16 A. The commander of the battalion, Sefik
18 Q. How many members did your unit have in your
20 JUDGE JAN: Please be relevant.
21 MR. KARABDIC: I will try.
22 JUDGE JAN: That is totally irrelevant. How
23 are we interested? How does it prove or disprove the
24 allegations against you?
25 MR. KARABDIC: Your Honours, I don't want to
1 disrespect you, but I would like to say that this
2 witness will present the circumstances that -- about
3 the arming and buying of weapons. And this later has a
4 lot to do with the arrest. And with due respect, Your
5 Honours, this is relevant to the Defence.
6 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Mr. Karabdic, the
7 Prosecution has given evidence and the Defence has
8 substantially corroborated what happened during that
9 period. Now what you are concerned in the Defence of
10 Delic is the specific allegations made against him.
11 Whatever you are now saying should be related to those
12 specific allegations. The general allegations are
13 there and I think you cannot change them. I think even
14 if you add to them, it may not make much of a
15 difference to them. But specific allegations which you
16 have called this witness to come and disprove is what
17 we want to hear from you.
18 JUDGE JAN: Did he himself arrest any of the
19 detainees? Ask him. Under what circumstances did they
20 arrest them?
21 MR. KARABDIC: Your Honours, I will come to
22 that point. With all due respect, Your Honours, I must
23 say that the Defence of my client, Hazim Delic, for
24 concrete allegations cannot be separated from the
25 Defence and from the general circumstances that were
1 present at the time.
2 JUDGE JAN: You're trying to show that the
3 detainees were carrying arms, they were rebels against
4 the authorities. Did he arrest any of them? And under
5 what circumstances did he arrest them? Please ask him
6 straight away.
7 MR. KARABDIC: I apologise, Your Honours, I
8 will pose this question after a number of introductory
9 questions and I would like to ask you to let me ask a
10 couple of more questions.
11 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: If you have introductory
12 questions to ask --
13 MR. KARABDIC: We will come to direct events
14 after a couple of questions. We will finish very
16 Q. How many members were there in your unit of
17 the Territorial Defence?
18 A. About a hundred.
19 Q. How much weapons did you have?
20 A. Eight rifles.
21 Q. What did you do to procure those hunting
22 rifles? What did you do first? Did you try to buy
23 those weapons from somebody?
24 A. I don't know. The higher command was doing
25 these things.
1 Q. Did you go to the Villages of Turije,
2 Zaslivlje and Zabrdje with regard to this?
3 A. Yes, we did. We went to Ljubina because of
4 the weapons, yes.
5 Q. Who was there in those three villages?
6 A. HVO was there.
7 Q. And did you reach an agreement with them,
8 with regard to the weapons and joint actions?
9 A. Yes, we did. They were to give us 14
10 weapons -- 14 rifles and uniforms and we were to hold
11 our positions together in Ljubina.
12 Q. Did you ever go to Ljubina and when?
13 A. I went to Ljubina for the first time on the
14 30th of April and then, after that, this position was
15 important throughout the war.
16 Q. What did you see from Ljubina? What was
17 happening in the other villages, in the villages
18 of Bijela and others?
19 A. From Bijela you can see Konjic, Bijela,
20 Orahovica, Celebici, Idbar, Toria, Salsia (phoen) and
21 all the other villages. And I saw that the Serbs were
22 burning everything that was non-Serb. They burned a
23 factory, a saw mill in -- which was, which was owned by
24 the Croats, I think it was in Vidackovic.
25 Q. Did you see that some houses were burning and
1 whose houses were those?
2 A. Houses belonging both to Bosniaks and Croats
3 were burning, everything which was burning was non-Serb
4 was burning by the Chetniks. And at night, their
5 houses -- some houses and some villages would use some
6 light signals and all this was very confusing for us.
7 And they had some signals with which they would
8 communicate amongst each other within our villages and
9 amongst the Serbs and their military formations which
10 were attacking us.
11 Q. When was the attack on Ljubina? And did you
12 get any notice of this beforehand?
13 A. The information about this we received from
14 Esad Ramic.
15 Q. What did he say?
16 A. He said that the Chetniks from Bijela would
17 attack us on Ljubina and that we must strengthen our
18 forces. And then immediately that night we went with
19 more people and there were already soldiers in Ljubina,
20 but we strengthened our forces at night. And this
21 night was the night between the 6th and the 7th and the
22 battle took place around noon, they attacked us on the
23 7th of May.
24 JUDGE JAN: Of which month?
25 THE WITNESS: Of May. On the 7th of May, the
1 battle took place.
2 MR. KARABDIC:
3 Q. And what was the result of the battle?
4 A. The result was we had four dead: one Bosniak
5 and three Croats.
6 Q. And did the -- and could the Chetniks pass?
7 A. No, they could not. No, they did not pass
8 that time because we managed to throw them back if they
9 had passed then.
10 Q. This is what you think would have happened.
11 When you came to the Village of this event, what did
12 you find out, what happened in the village during the
13 time you were away?
14 A. While we were in Ljubina, a patrol came to
15 the village. I found out about this in the evening
16 when I came back. This patrol belonged to the Ministry
17 of Internal Affairs, to the police and the military
18 police and HVO and they searched the village and they
19 found the weapons. They found some weapons in the Serb
20 houses who lived in the village.
21 Q. Could you tell us what kind of weapons were
23 A. They found one machine gun, M-53, and some
24 M-48s, rifles.
25 Q. Did you receive any of the weapons from those
1 weapons that were seized, your unit?
2 A. Yes, Rale brought me six rifles from all that
4 Q. You mentioned Rale, was Rale in this patrol
5 that searched the village?
6 A. I was not in the village when they were
7 searching it.
8 Q. Did you know what kind of ammunition you got
9 at this time?
10 A. Yes. I noted it on the 29th.
11 Q. But at this time, what kind of weapons were
12 these six rifles that you got?
13 A. A machine gun was found at Simo Jovanovic's.
14 It was an M-53 and then other rifles, M-48, military
16 Q. What happened to those Serbs, in whose houses
17 where these weapons were found?
18 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: I don't know what you
19 are trying to do, whether this has, in any event, any
20 connection with the accused person himself. How does
21 all these things concern him?
22 MR. KARABDIC: Your Honours, this will be
23 shown shortly. My weapons -- my defendant, Your
24 Honours, with all due respect, I must say that my
25 defendant has also been charged with unlawful detention
1 of civilians and for everything.
2 JUDGE JAN: If arrested any of the
3 detainees and there were circumstances, he arrested
5 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Not this witness.
6 JUDGE JAN: You are talking about generally
7 what happened. You're talking about detainees in the
8 Celebici camp.
9 MR. KARABDIC:
10 Q. Sir, did those people, were those people
11 arrested, those people in whose houses you found
13 A. The police took them away on the 9th of May,
14 after the barrel of my father.
15 Q. So as far as I understand, they were not
16 taken away immediately, but on the 9th of May the
17 police came to get them?
18 A. Yes, that's right.
19 Q. Who was arrested as far as you can remember?
20 Who was taken away from you village at that time, as
21 far as you can remember?
22 A. They took away Vojo Jovanovic, Mirko Antic,
23 Cedo Antic. Simo tried to escape.
24 Q. Which Simo?
25 A. Simo Jovanovic.
1 Q. And what happened with Simo?
2 A. They caught up with him at Prenj, the members
3 of the police and they took him to Celebici.
4 Q. Do you know what kind of weapons were found
5 at Simo Jovanovic's?
6 A. I already said that, M-53s, a light machine
8 Q. Did you find any weapons after this event in
9 your village?
10 A. Yes, on the 28th of May and on the 29th of
12 Q. Under whose command was this done and who
13 found these weapons?
14 A. They came from the police, Dzevad Alibasic
15 and Almir Mulic. They are members of the police and
16 were responsible for Idbar. And in cooperation with
17 Sefik Omerovic this was done.
18 Q. And what was found at this time?
19 A. At this time I wrote it down. On the 28th of
20 May, a rifle, a PAP rifle, it's a semi-automatic rifle.
21 MS. McHENRY: May I? Just excuse me. I see
22 that the witness is reading from a document and I would
23 just ask Defence counsel to provide us a copy of the
25 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: He said he wrote it
2 MS. McHENRY: I am not objecting, I am just
3 asking for a copy for us to look at.
4 MR. KARABDIC: Yes, we will provide a copy
5 immediately at the break. Please go ahead.
6 A. So one semi-automatic rifle, No. 352127. It
7 was found at Jovanovic Krijk (phoen). Rifle No. M-48,
8 130-41. Also found in a shed next to the house, which
9 belonged to his son, Velimir Jovanovic, we wrote Rajko
10 Jovanovic. And some bombs, two pieces, hand bombs, and
11 a lot of ammunition, uniforms and crates. And on 29th
12 we found an M-48, 630-28 rifles at Cedo Antic's. And
13 then he said later, Omerovic told me so, that this was
14 a gun which belonged to Mirko Antic. A rifle, M-48,
15 250-80, Ilija Jovanovic, a hunting rifle, 731-444,
16 found at Milovan Jovanovic. A rocket launcher, M-55,
17 890 at Savo Antic's and one crate of mines. This was
18 found at that time.
19 Q. Were these persons arrested?
20 A. No, not at this time, after about a
21 fortnight. Alibasic and Muhic came and we were
22 surrounding the territory and then they went in. And
23 they took them to the fishery.
24 Q. Was Milojka Antic arrested at this time?
25 A. Yes, she was.
1 Q. Why?
2 A. Probably because her brother told her that it
3 was her rifle that they found.
4 Q. You said that these people were taken to the
5 fishery next to the village, who took them over there?
6 A. A person -- a truck -- a tram took them
8 Q. Were these people maltreated and were they
9 abused during the arrest? How were they treated?
10 A. No, nobody was maltreated. On the contrary,
11 we protected them to avoid any maltreatment of these
12 people because these were our neighbours that we lived
13 with and worked with and cooperated with.
14 Q. Where were they taken?
15 A. I don't know. I never interested myself in
16 these people ever again.
17 Q. Did you hear that they were taken to Celebici
19 A. I don't know. I don't know where they were
21 Q. Please, generally speaking, have you ever
22 been in the barracks, Celebici?
23 A. No, I never entered. Through this gate, I
24 see it in front of me, it seems that this is -- we went
25 there in August to -- for a solemn declaration, but
1 from the other side. I never entered the camp through
2 the main gate.
3 Q. What kind of a solemn swearing was this?
4 A. It was the declaration for the army of the
5 Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina.
6 Q. After this event, did you ever go to the
7 barracks, Celebici?
8 A. No.
9 MR. KARABDIC: This is all, Your Honours, I
10 have finished with the examination of this witness.
11 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Have you any questions
12 for this witness?
13 MS. RESIDOVIC: Defence counsel for Mr.
14 Delalic has no questions, Your Honours.
15 MR. KUZMANOVIC: Your Honours, Defence for
16 Mr. Mucic has no questions.
17 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Any questions from
18 Landzo's corner?
19 MS. McMURREY: Yes, Your Honour, we have a
20 few brief questions. May I question from here? Thank
22 Cross-examined by Ms. McMurrey
23 Q. Good morning, Mr. Cosic. I am Cynthia
24 McMurrey and I represent Mr. Esad Landzo. And we have
25 never had an opportunity to speak before, have we?
1 A. No.
2 Q. You are from the Village of Idbar; isn't that
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. And the Village at Idbar, I believe, is about
6 120 households and out of the 120 households, about
7 fifteen of those were considered Serb households, is
8 that correct?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. And in your testimony just a moment ago, you
11 testified that the Serbs that were arrested in Idbar,
12 they were taken to a fishery. Now, the fishery you're
13 referring to is the business owned by Simo Jovanovic,
14 wasn't it?
15 A. Yes, in Idbar.
16 Q. And you testified that Mr. Jovanovic was
17 arrested because he had really collected a fairly large
18 arsenal of weapons on his property, would that be true?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. And Mr. Javanovic in Idbar was considered a
21 wealthy man, was he not?
22 A. Well, there were some Muslims who were rich.
23 Q. But, by the standards in the village, he had
24 a business and he had a home, and so, by most of the
25 standards, he would be one of the wealthier citizens in
1 the village of Idbar? Would that be accurate or not?
2 A. Well, yes, relatively speaking, because he
3 was given some loans by the municipality, some
4 agricultural loans.
5 Q. You testified that once he was arrested and
6 sent to Celebici, you don't know what happened to
7 Mr. Jovanovic after that point, do you?
8 A. No.
9 Q. Do you know what happened to his property in
11 A. The house still stands, and we have our
12 school there, because our real school was destroyed by
13 the Chetniks. The fishery still stands. Everything is
14 there just as it used to be.
15 Q. And so would it be fair to say that the
16 people of Idbar, basically, took over the property of
17 Mr. Jovanovic?
18 A. Well, in a certain sense, yes. It is being
19 guarded, because the school is in that house.
20 MS. McMURREY: Thank you very much,
21 Mr. Cosic. I have no further questions.
22 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Any questions from the
23 Prosecution, please.
24 MS. McHENRY: Yes, Your Honour. And I can
25 either start now and then during the break review the
1 piece of paper, or we can take the break now and I will
2 do everything all at once. It's up to Your Honours.
3 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: You can start now. The
4 piece of paper merely reinforces his memory.
5 MS. McHENRY: That's fine, Your Honour.
6 Cross-examined by Ms. McHenry
7 Q. Sir, when you say Mr. Jovanovic's house is
8 being guarded, what do you mean by that? Are you
9 suggesting that his house is being guarded in
10 safekeeping for Mr. Jovanovic?
11 JUDGE JAN: He answered that. He said they
12 are running a school there.
13 MS. McHENRY: Yes. That's right, he answered
14 it, but he also said then it was being guarded.
15 Q. Sir, would you agree that the house and the
16 other belongings of Mr. Jovanovic have been taken over
17 by the village of Idbar and are not being kept for the
18 use of Mr. Jovanovic?
19 MS. McMURREY: Your Honour, I am going to
20 object. That's asked and answered.
21 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: He has answered. He did
22 say in some sense, yes, because they are using this
23 building for the school. His answer still stands as
24 they have always been. That's what he said.
25 MS. McHENRY:
1 Q. Sir, you would agree with me that
2 Mr. Jovanovic has no chance of ever getting any of that
3 property back, does he?
4 JUDGE JAN: (Microphone not on) -- they can
5 go back and take over the property. He already
6 answered that question.
7 MR. KARABDIC: I object to this line of
8 questioning. This is a question relating to the peace
9 accords and the return of the refugees.
10 THE WITNESS: If I may be allowed to answer.
11 In our parts, the private property is sacrosanct. His
12 wife went there recently. It's her private property.
13 Nobody has any right to that. It's just his and his
15 MS. McHENRY:
16 Q. You are aware, sir, aren't you, that
17 Mr. Jovanovic was murdered in Celebici?
18 MS. McMURREY: Your Honour, I am going to
19 object. He said he didn't know what happened to the
20 Serb detainees once they left Idbar, number one; and
21 number two, that has not been proven in this case.
22 That's an issue for the court.
23 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: I think you are quite
24 correct. That was his answer. He didn't know what
25 happened to him thereafter.
1 MS. McHENRY: Fine. Sir, I will move on.
2 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: The answers of the
3 witnesses -- when you are cross-examining, if the
4 answers are clear and not contradicted so far, you
5 don't have to cross-examine him on that. He's answered
6 it properly and I don't see the point in asking him for
8 MS. McHENRY:
9 Q. Well, sir, after he was arrested and taken to
10 Celebici, you've never seen Mr. Jovanovic again, have
12 JUDGE JAN: He said that he was taken to
14 MS. McHENRY: I believe he said he was one of
15 the people who was --
16 Q. Sir, after Mr. Jovanovic was arrested and
17 taken away, have you ever had an opportunity to see him
19 A. No, I never saw any of those people.
20 Q. Now, when you were talking about in the
21 beginning, when Mr. Karabdic was asking you about the
22 background and you talked about some Chetniks from
23 Bijela. Is Bijela part of Konjic or not?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. And was it, sir, your opinion, at the time
1 that these persons were arrested, that the Serbs in
2 Idbar who were arrested were part of the Serb forces
3 attacking Bosnia?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Now, you talked about some weapons that were
6 taken, and you initially talked about some weapons that
7 were taken on the 9th of May. Now, first of all, are
8 you sure that it was the 9th of May or was it the 20th
9 of May?
10 A. The weapons seized before the 9th of May, and
11 on the 9th of May they were taken away, after my
12 father's funeral.
13 Q. And -- let me go on. And some of those
14 weapons were legal hunting weapons that were found at
15 that time, weren't they?
16 A. Those who had hunting weapons in Idbar, such
17 as Djordjo Jovanovic, Ilija Jovanovic, they immediately
18 joined the Chetniks in Bijela.
19 Q. The question was: In addition to the --
20 whatever weapons you've already testified about, you
21 would agree with me that some of the weapons that were
22 found were legal hunting weapons; is that correct?
23 A. In accordance with the law on hunting, one is
24 not allowed to have mortar, sniper rifles, military
25 weapons, automatic weapons and things like that.
1 Q. Sir, my question was: Were there any legal
2 hunting weapons found?
3 A. One hunting rifle was found at Mirko's.
4 MS. RESIDOVIC: Your Honours, before my
5 colleague continues, I would like to warn that in this
6 transcript on several occasions, instead of the name of
7 the village of Bijela, we have the name of the
8 mountain, which is quite far away from this area, the
9 mountain of Bjelasnica. So I would like to have this
10 corrected, Bijela, not Bjelasnica.
11 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Thank you very much.
12 MS. McHENRY:
13 Q. Now, sir, with respect to the weapons that
14 were seized on the 9th of May, you weren't present and
15 you have no personal knowledge about any of that; is
16 that correct?
17 A. No.
18 Q. I'm sorry, am I correct that you weren't
19 there and you have no personal knowledge?
20 A. I have knowledge from what Rale told me and
21 the six pieces of weapons that he brought me.
22 Q. And at that time did Rale tell you from whose
23 house every single weapon came from?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. And did you write that down or you just --
1 are you just testifying from your own memory from what
2 he told you in 1992?
3 A. Well, from my recollection, but also because
4 I immediately issued those weapons to my soldiers, and
5 that's how I know about those weapons.
6 Q. Okay. Well, sir, would you agree with me
7 that previously you stated that Mr. ^ Spasoje
8 Jovanovic, Mr. Mirko Antic, Mr. ^ Rado Antic, all had
9 hunting rifles that were taken at that time?
10 A. They had those weapons, but they never were
11 hunters. They were able to obtain all kinds of
13 Q. So you would agree with me that they were
14 normally considered hunting weapons, but because they
15 weren't hunters, you don't consider them hunting
16 weapons; is that your testimony?
17 A. Not in Bosnia, because nobody in Bosniak can
18 have weapons if they are not hunters and if they don't
19 have the licence to have those weapons.
20 Q. So you would also agree with me that
21 previously you gave a statement in which you indicated
22 that all this happened on the 20th of May, not the 9th
23 of May; is that correct?
24 A. No. On the 9th of May. This is when they
25 were taken away, not on the 20th.
1 Q. Now, you also testified about some weapons
2 that were seized on the 28th and 29th. Were you
3 present when those -- all those weapons were seized?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. And you indicated that there was an M48 that
6 you later heard had been taken from -- had been issued
7 to Milojka Antic; is that correct?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. And where was that M48 found?
10 A. It was found next to a place where meat is
11 cured. It was buried in the flower bed next to the
12 place where the meat is dried.
13 Q. Were you actually present when it was
15 A. Yes. Sefik Omerovic was with me.
16 Q. Is that the time when you wrote down the
17 serial number? Is that the time that you wrote down
18 the serial number of that M48?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. What is the serial number of that M48 that
21 you found on May 28th or 9th?
22 A. 63028.
23 Q. Now, when was it that somebody told you that
24 that was Mrs. Antic's rifle?
25 A. A day or two later Omerovic told me that this
1 was a rifle belonging to Milojka Antic.
2 Q. And did you ask Mr. Omerovic who told you
3 about this? Did you ask him how he knew of that?
4 A. Mr. Omerovic was the commander of the
5 detachment and he sometimes had consultations with the
6 Ministry of the Interior and the chain of command from
7 the staff to the smallest unit.
8 Q. Do I take it, sir, that you have no idea how
9 Mr. Omerovic, where he received this information?
10 A. Well, probably at the barracks in the
11 Celebici barracks.
12 Q. Is it correct that you, yourself, have no
13 information about where he received it, and you are
14 just guessing?
15 A. Well, I don't know, because all the weapons
16 were immediately issued to the soldiers. We, as the
17 Territorial Defence, did not really think about it. We
18 had more serious tasks, such as the defence at Ljubina,
19 Orahovica, Turije, Prenj and so on.
20 Q. You know Mrs. Antic, don't you?
21 A. Yes, I do.
22 Q. And she would be a middle-aged woman who
23 lived with her elderly mother; is that correct?
24 A. Well, if she had gotten married, she would
25 probably have been a mother.
1 JUDGE JAN: The question was whether she
2 lived with her mother in Idbar.
3 THE WITNESS: Yes. Yes, she did. She lived
4 with her mother and her brother. They were next door
6 Q. And let me go back. When you say that
7 Mr. Omerovic was commander of the detachment, what
8 detachment are you referring to?
9 A. That wasn't a platoon, that was the Ljubina
10 detachment. It was composed of several companies or
11 units, the Orahovica, Celebici, Zabrdje and Idbar. So
12 he was the commander of the larger unit, subordinate --
13 super ordinate unit.
14 Q. And he was your superior; is that correct?
15 A. Yes, that's correct.
16 Q. Did you and everyone else in your unit have a
17 uniform, wear a uniform?
18 A. We had uniforms. Not all of us, but we -- so
19 whoever was at the line had to be in a uniform. We had
20 about 15 uniforms, so we would take turns wearing the
21 uniforms. As soon you got onto the line, defence line,
22 you put on the uniform.
23 Q. Now, what kind of insignia did the uniforms
25 A. The Territorial Defence insignia. Some
1 people did have those insignias, some didn't, depending
2 on the availability.
3 Q. Now, sir, let me move forward. It was you
4 personally who arrested Ms. Antic; is that correct?
5 A. No.
6 Q. Who actually arrested Ms. Antic then?
7 A. Dzevad Alibasic and Almir Mulic.
8 Q. Were you the third person present at the time
9 she was arrested?
10 A. Myself and Omerovic followed them, because
11 our unit provided the security, the guards around the
13 Q. Okay. And Mrs. Antic talked to you when she
14 was arrested, because you were the only person she
15 knew; is that correct?
16 A. No. She knew other people too, but they did
17 not live there. Alibasic lived in Celebici and Almir
18 lived in Konjic, and that's why she talked to me.
19 Q. And what did she say to you?
20 A. She asked me how long she would be staying
22 Q. She asked you how long she would be staying
23 at Celebici?
24 A. Not in Celebici. Celebici was not mentioned.
25 Q. Well, when she asked you how long would she
1 be staying there, what "there" was she referring to?
2 A. I don't know.
3 Q. Didn't she ask you whether or not she could
4 go inside and change her clothes also, and you told her
6 A. No, she did not ask me that.
7 Q. Did she ask that something be done to take
8 care of her elderly mother?
9 A. No. No, she did not ask me that.
10 Q. And was there a search done of Ms. Antic's
11 house at any time when you were present, or in the
13 A. No, we did not enter houses because her rifle
14 was found in the yard next to the place where the meat
15 was dried.
16 Q. Now, did anyone -- what was told to
17 Mrs. Antic about why she was being arrested?
18 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Was he the person who
19 arrested her?
20 MS. McHENRY: He said he was present at the
22 Q. Sir, what was told to Mrs. Antic about why
23 she was being arrested?
24 A. She was told that this matter will be
25 examined by some kind of a commission, and that if she
1 were to be found guilty, she would be detained for a
2 certain period of time.
3 Q. And it was you who told Mrs. Antic that; is
4 that correct?
5 A. Yes, that's what I told her.
6 Q. And when you -- did you -- did you tell her
7 that she was suspected of having a transmitter?
8 A. No.
9 Q. Did you tell her that she was suspected of
10 having a gun?
11 A. No, because it was not our business. This
12 was up to the Ministry of the Interior.
13 Q. So you would agree with me that Mrs. Antic
14 wasn't told anything about why she was being arrested?
15 A. Nobody told her anything about that
17 Q. And, sir, is it your testimony that at this
18 time you had no idea whatsoever that Mrs. Antic was
19 being -- was going to be brought to Celebici?
20 A. I did not understand the question.
21 Q. My question is: Is it your testimony that at
22 this time you had no idea whatsoever that Mrs. Antic
23 was being brought to Celebici?
24 A. Well, the only place she could have gone to
25 by car from Idbar was Celebici.
1 Q. I am going to ask that the witness be shown
2 Defence Exhibit 1 -- D145/A7-31. While you are looking
3 for it, let me just go forward.
4 Sir, did you ever receive any information
5 that any other weapons were found in Idbar after the
6 28th and 29th?
7 MR. MORAN: We may be able to short circuit
8 some of this process. We are about to introduce
9 through another witness that document for the truth of
10 the matter asserted. And I have extra copies for the
11 court. So that the court can have them, we can just
12 hand them out now, so that you know what we are talking
14 MS. McHENRY: Sir --
15 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: No, no the direction of
16 this cross-examination ends first.
17 MS. McHENRY: I think we are going to have
18 our break in a few minutes and maybe we can get the
19 document then.
20 Q. Sir, after the 28th and 29th, do you have any
21 information that any other weapons were ever found in
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. And when were the other weapons found?
25 A. I don't know when it was, precisely, but
1 members of the MUP and the HVO military police came and
2 they searched the place. We, as the Territorial
3 Defence, had nothing to do with it.
4 Q. Well, going back to the rifle that was found
5 that you later heard had belonged to Milojka Antic.
6 Whose chicken coop was it found near? Was it on
7 Ms. Antic's property or not?
8 A. Yes, on the property of Milojka Antic.
9 Q. And did you ever -- and did you ever learn
10 whether or not there were any other weapons found on
11 that same property?
12 A. I heard that another rifle was found, but I
13 don't know anything about that rifle because it never
14 reached my company, my unit.
15 MS. McHENRY: Your Honour, if this is time
16 for the break, I think when I come back I'll just have
17 one or two additional questions and then be finished.
18 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: The Trial Chamber will
19 now rise and reassemble at noon.
20 --- Recess taken at 11.30 a.m.
21 --- On resuming at 12.10 p.m.
22 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Please remind the
23 witness he's still on his oath.
24 THE REGISTRAR: May I remind you that you are
25 still under oath.
1 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: You may sit down,
3 MS. McHENRY: May I proceed, Your Honour?
4 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Yes, you may proceed.
5 MS. McHENRY: Thank you.
6 Q. Now, sir, previously, you would agree with
7 me, that you stated that you and other members of the
8 TO arrested Miloka Antic on the 29th of May, 1992;
9 that's correct, isn't it?
10 A. No, it's not.
11 Q. Is it correct that you've stated previously
12 that you and other members of the TO arrested Miloka
13 Antic on the 29th of May?
14 A. The TO didn't arrest anybody. They only
15 guarded the village, the area around the village.
16 Q. Well, sir, is it correct that previously in a
17 written statement you gave to the Defence, you stated
18 that it was you and other members of the TO who
19 arrested Mrs. Antic and that it happened on the 29th of
21 A. That is not correct and it did not happen on
22 the 29th of May.
23 Q. May I just ask that the witness be shown --
24 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: You want him to say that
25 he's never said that or it never happened like that?
1 He's now saying that that is not the fact.
2 MS. McHENRY: That's correct.
3 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: But you're saying that
4 he said that to the Defence.
5 MS. McHENRY: That's correct, Your Honour.
6 Q. And I put a yellow sticker, just to help you,
7 sir, direct you to the portion that I am referring to.
8 THE REGISTRAR: Document is marked 253.
9 MS. McHENRY:
10 Q. Sir, can I ask that you look at the document
11 that you've been given. Sir, is this a copy of a
12 statement that you previously gave to a Defence
14 A. Yes, but it was a long time ago.
15 Q. And I am going to direct you to where the
16 yellow sticker was, and can you tell me if it states
17 that "On the 29th of May, 1992, on a verbal order of
18 Sefik Omerovic, commander of the Ljubina unit, I and a
19 group of TO members remanded in custody, the following
20 persons?" And then one of the names is Mrs. Antic.
21 Sir, is that what the document says?
22 A. It says in the document, but she wasn't
23 arrested at that time and neither were these other
24 people. This is a mistake of the person who was
25 writing this.
1 Q. And since then, have you talked to anyone who
2 reminded you of the correct date?
3 A. No, I did not.
4 Q. Certainly, sir, you would agree with me that
5 you've talked about your testimony with Defence
6 investigators before you came here, with Defence
7 representatives, haven't you?
8 A. Only with Nehir.
9 Q. Now, is it your testimony, sir, in the
10 statement where it says that you were the one who
11 arrested Mrs. Antic, is that a mistake also?
12 A. It is a mistake, the Territorial Defence did
13 not arrest anyone.
14 Q. And did you have a chance to read that
15 statement before you signed it?
16 A. No, I didn't. I thought there was no need
17 and I only signed it.
18 Q. Let me go back, sir, to a different
19 question. I have no more questions from this
20 document. You would agree with me that the notes you
21 took on the 28th and 29th of May, that you were looking
22 at during your direct testimony, you would agree that
23 there's nothing in those notes that indicates that any
24 weapon found had anything to do with Miloka Antic; is
25 that correct, sir?
1 A. We wrote that and we stated that as if the
2 weapons belonged to her brother, but Omerovic told me
3 later that her brother said that the weapon belonged to
5 Q. I understand that, sir, I am just clarifying
6 that the records you took at the time don't mention
7 anything whatsoever about Miloka Antic; is that
9 A. It is not mentioned in the notes.
10 Q. Now, you would also agree with me, sir, that
11 on the 28th and the 29th, you and the soldiers and
12 other military persons, took a large amount of food and
13 some alcohol from Serb families living in Idbar; is
14 that correct?
15 A. No, it isn't.
16 Q. Sir, you would agree with me that your notes
17 indicate that a large amount of food and some alcohol
18 were taken; is that correct?
19 A. No, it is not. Everything was outside of the
20 houses, the TO only searched the area and nobody went
21 into any of the houses.
22 Q. Well, sir, when it talks about in addition to
23 some weapons, when it talks about 100 kilos of potato,
24 and sugar, 90 kilograms of potatoes and sugar and flour
25 and brandy being taken, where were those things taken
2 A. These things were taken from some sheds,
3 bunkers, outside of the houses, none of this was found
4 inside the houses, nobody entered the houses.
5 Q. You would agree with me, sir, that then a
6 large amount of food and some alcohol was taken from
7 the Serb families in Idbar, even if it wasn't taken,
8 according to you, from their houses; Is that correct?
9 A. It did not belong to the Serb families, it
10 was not taken from them.
11 Q. Who did it belong to, sir?
12 A. It probably belonged to the military
14 Q. And how did you determine that, sir, that it
15 belonged to the military formations and not the
17 A. We did not determine that.
18 MS. McHENRY: No further questions, thank
20 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Thank you very much.
21 Any re-examination, please? You have no
23 MR. KARABDIC: I have.
24 Re-examined by Mr. Karabdic.
25 Q. Please, this food that has been mentioned,
1 was this food found together with the weapons that you
2 found, did you find the food next to the weapons?
3 A. No, not next to the weapons. The food was
4 found outside of the houses in bunkers and the weapons
5 were usually dugged.
6 Q. Since the food was hidden, is that how you
7 concluded that this food was prepared for military
9 A. It served for military purposes, for
10 logistics of their gangs.
11 Q. Okay. You also mentioned that you saw in
12 Bijela that some Chetnik forces attacked you in Bijela,
13 could you tell us what kind of forces these were and
14 how were they dressed?
15 A. They wore olive green/grey uniforms belonging
16 to the JNA. On their heads they had caps, high rising
17 caps, fur hats and they had (no translation) on the
19 Q. Please, when Simo Jovanovic was taken away
20 from Idbar, what happened to his family?
21 A. They stayed there to live normally, his
22 father and his mother and his wife.
23 Q. Did they take care of his property?
24 A. Yes, they did, his father and his mother.
25 Q. Please, could you tell me, if there were
1 Serbs in Idbar who spent the whole time with you?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. They did not have any weapons?
4 A. No, they did not have weapons. Those who
5 stayed there for the whole time did not have any
6 weapons. And there are still Serbs living with us
8 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: This did not an arise
9 from cross examination.
10 MR. KARABDIC: I have no more questions.
11 MR. KUZMANOVIC: Your Honours, if I may
12 interrupt for a moment. Page 46, line 17, the marking
13 on the cap was not translated, I believe the witness
14 had said there were skull and crossbones marking on the
15 cap and that is not in translation.
16 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Thank you very much for
17 your correction. Thank you very much, Mr. Cosic, I
18 think this is all for you. You are discharged.
19 THE WITNESS: Thank you very much, Your
21 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: You can now leave.
22 (The witness withdrew)
23 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Mr. Karabdic, can you
24 call your next witness, please.
25 MR. KARABDIC: I would like to call the
1 witness Ramic, Agan.
2 (The witness entered court)
3 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Kindly let the witness
4 take the oath.
5 THE WITNESS: I solemnly declare that I will
6 speak the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the
8 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Yes, you may take your
9 seat, please.
10 THE WITNESS: RAMIC AGAN
11 Examined by Mr. Karabdic:
12 Q. Good morning, sir.
13 A. Good morning.
14 Q. My name is Salih Karabdic and I am defending
15 Mr. Hazim Delic. I would like to ask you a couple of
16 questions, but before that, I would like to give you a
17 few instructions. Since the official languages are
18 English and French, everything that the two of us will
19 be speaking in the Bosnian language, will have to be
20 translated into one of the two official languages.
21 This takes time, therefore, I would like to ask you not
22 to hurry and to wait for a while until my questions are
23 interpreted and then to reply and to reply slowly. Do
24 not give your answers by nodding or by doing something
25 else. If you would like to say "yes" or "no", please
1 say so. Whatever is uttered here in this Court must be
2 written down in the transcript. Did you understand
4 A. Yes, I did.
5 Q. Please say your name?
6 A. My name is Ramic, Agan.
7 Q. When were you born?
8 A. I was born on March 17th, 1962.
9 Q. Where do you live?
10 A. In Brdani, Municipality of Konjic.
11 Q. Where were you at the beginning of the war,
12 that is to say on April the 6th, 1992?
13 A. I was in Brdani.
14 Q. Were you engaged in the defence?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Which unit did you join?
17 A. We were an independent platoon which belonged
18 to the detachment of Zupcanik. We actually belonged to
19 the TO.
20 Q. During the process of mobilisation, did all
21 citizens respond to this mobilisation, including the
22 citizens of Serbian nationality?
23 A. No, not all citizens joined the
24 mobilisation. People who were Serbs did not respond to
1 Q. Did you have any information that persons of
2 Serb nationality were armed?
3 A. Yes, we did. We had some information that
4 they were armed. And this is precisely the reason,
5 precisely for this reason we decided to organise
6 ourselves and also to arm ourselves and to prepare.
7 Q. Who was the commander of this unit of yours
8 in your village?
9 A. I was the commander. And the overall
10 commander, the commander of the detachment that we
11 belonged to was Mr. Zavko (sic).
12 Q. Did you try to reach an agreement in a
13 peaceful way with the citizens of Serb nationality with
14 respect to the outbreak of the war, so that you would
15 not attack each other and defend the village together?
16 A. Yes, we did. Several times we negotiated
17 with people of Serb nationality. And the members of
18 the municipality staff of TO have suggested at those
19 times to the Serbs to join the units of TO or to hand
20 in the weapons that they have if they don't want to
22 MS. RESIDOVIC: Your Honours, before my
23 colleague continues there is a mistake in the
24 transcript. The question stating who was the
25 commander. The response said Mr. "Zavko". The witness
1 stated another name and it would be good to say again
2 who this commander was, who was the commander of his
4 MR. KARABDIC: You heard, could you please
5 say what his name was?
6 JUDGE JAN: Zovko, that's what he said.
7 MS. RESIDOVIC: He said that he was the
8 commander of his village, but the overall commander,
9 the name of the overall commander was written in the
10 wrong way and I would like to say that the witness
11 restates the name of the overall commander so that this
12 can be changed in the transcript.
13 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Okay, ask your question.
14 MR. KARABDIC:
15 Q. You have heard the statement. Please, who
16 was the commander of the detachment that your unit
17 belonged to, your unit in the village?
18 A. The commander was Zvonko Zovko and his
19 headquarters were in Podgradac.
20 Q. I didn't fully hear your response, your
22 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Let's not get the name
23 again because it doesn't sound right from what I read
25 MR. KARABDIC:
1 Q. Could you, please, clearly state the name of
2 the commander of the detachment?
3 A. The commander of the detachment was Zovko,
4 Z-o-v-k-o, Zvonko, Z-v-o-n-k-o, and the headquarters
5 was in Podgradac.
6 MS. RESIDOVIC: The name is Zvonko Zovko and
7 maybe the interpreter does not get it.
8 MR. KARABDIC: Well, it might not be that
10 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: It might be. I think,
11 let's get it correct, let's know what the name is.
12 It's important.
13 MR. KARABDIC:
14 Q. Could the usher please hand a piece of paper
15 to the witness so that he could write down the name
16 with the correct spelling, please.
17 JUDGE JAN: But is it really important that
18 his name should be correctly spelled?
19 MR. KARABDIC: This name has been mentioned
20 on a number of occasions in these proceedings and I
21 believe that other certain facts can be established
22 through this and it has to do with the relations
23 between the Croats and Muslims. I am going to read it
24 out and I am going to spell it out.
25 MR. KARABDIC: Z-O-K-O. That is the last
1 name, Zovko Zvonko.
2 May I proceed, Your Honours?
3 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Yes, you may.
4 MR. KARABDIC:
5 Q. Earlier you said, when I asked you were there
6 any conversations conducted with the citizens of
7 Serbian ethnic group and what were the results of these
8 conversations, what did you talk about, given the new
9 situation, the war and the joint defence and such?
10 A. Yes. We negotiated with the citizens of the
11 Serbian ethnic group on several occasions, and we
12 proposed that the Serbs join Territorial Defence or
13 that they surrender weapons. However, the last time we
14 had negotiations, part of the Serbs who did not show up
15 at the negotiations were armed and they were already up
16 in the surrounding hills ready to fight. Part of the
17 Serbs, those among the Serbs who were ready to sign
18 something, we were unable to sign anything with them
19 because the Serbs in the hills started shooting. And
20 this was in Brdani.
21 Q. If I understood you correctly, you were
22 attacked by those from the hills?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Did you manage to defend yourselves?
25 A. We did manage to defend ourselves. We broke
1 up these Chetnik forces, which subsequently escaped to
2 Bradina and joined the forces in Bradina.
3 Q. On the occasion of the liberation of Bradina,
4 did your unit take part in it?
5 A. Yes, my unit took part in the area from
6 Brdani towards Bradina, in other words, it held that
7 corridor, because we knew that the Serbs who were going
8 to flee were going to go -- would flee from that
9 direction of Brdani so that our forces could be there
10 and disarm them.
11 Q. Did this happen?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Did you capture any Serbs, how many did you
14 capture, and did you disarm them?
15 A. During their attempt to go back to Brdani,
16 part of the Serbs was disarmed, and those who were
17 hiding in the hills came down two or three days later
18 to lay down their arms.
19 Q. What happened to those people?
20 A. Those persons were released to their homes,
21 and they continued to live there and nobody touched
22 them, up until a day when an order came from Zvonko
23 Zovko stating that all Serbs who had weapons and took
24 part in the combat operations at Bradina should report
25 to the command post in Podorase. From there they were
1 then transferred in a truck to the Celebici prison.
2 Q. Did these persons then surrender their
4 A. The majority of them did surrender their
5 weapons, and later on they came together with the HVO
6 police members, or the HVO police members would come
7 and they would tell them -- they had been told where
8 they had hidden the weapons. In other words, they were
9 -- they would come to say where they had hidden the
11 Q. Were you present when they were surrendering
13 A. Yes. They were surrendering weapons to me
14 personally and to Zvonko Zovko.
15 Q. Did you compile a list of these weapons?
16 A. Yes, a list was compiled. The registration
17 number of the rifle or the weapon would be taken down,
18 the number of bullets and so on.
19 Q. Do you recall what was surrendered at that
20 time, what was -- can you recall what some individual
21 citizens surrendered?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Can you please -- can you do it on your own
24 or shall I prompt you?
25 A. Yeah, I can do it on my own. I remember.
1 Mirko Zivak, son of Milan, surrendered eight grenades
2 and rocket launcher. And Jovo Draganic surrendered a
3 machine gun, M53. Dragisa Sinikovic, also a machine
4 gun, the M53. Nebojsa Stojanovic also machine gun, M53
5 model. Slavko Zelenovic, an automatic rifle. Zdravko
6 Zelenovic, an M48 rifle and a pistol, calibre 7.62.
7 Q. Do you know Slobodan Zelenovic?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Was he one of those who wanted to negotiate
10 and surrender weapons or was he among those who wanted
11 to offer resistance and not surrender weapons?
12 A. Slobodan Zelenovic lived in -- in May came to
13 Brdani and he had an M48 rifle. After the attack of
14 the Serbian citizens against Muslims in Brdani, he went
15 to Bradina. After the fall of Bradina, he attempted to
16 go back to Brdani, and he went back there, in fact.
17 The Serbs who were taken prisoner at Bradina
18 put together a list of what they -- each of them had in
19 terms of weapons. On that list there was also the name
20 of Slobodan Zelenovic. When we asked Slobodan where
21 his rifle was, he said that he left his rifle in
23 Myself, together with the military police of
24 the HVO, which came to the command post in Podorasac,
25 we went to Bradina, and we found the rifle in the house
1 of Vaso Kuljanin.
2 Slobodan was at home up until the day when
3 the military police took all the Serbs to the command
4 post in Celebici.
5 Q. When you say that the police took all the
6 Serbs from Celebici, did all the Serbs remain in
8 A. When we conduct the negotiations about the
9 surrender of weapons for Serbs, stated that they would
10 surrender weapons, and they did so. They surrendered
11 them to me directly. However, when Zvonko Zovko
12 ordered that all Serbs come to the command post in
13 Podorasac, by mistake these four men also went there,
14 the four that had surrendered weapons.
15 When I learned about this, I went to the
16 Celebici prison and submitted a request to the
17 commission which was at Celebici to release the four
18 men who had surrendered weapons. The commission
19 considered the request and within an hour released the
20 four individuals who were taken there by mistake.
21 Those persons were Dragan Zivak, son of Mirka. Mirko
22 Zivak, son of Vase. Slavko Zivak, son of Vase, and
23 Nikola Stojanovic. Two of these four individuals
24 continued to be in Brdani to date.
25 Q. You also mentioned here that you contacted
1 the commission there. Do you know any members there?
2 Do you know who were the members there whom you saw in
3 the commission?
4 A. The members of the commission were Goran
5 Lokas, Kostic Stenek.
6 Q. Those who you saw?
7 A. Yes. Yes. Mehmedalija Rizvic and Mirsad
9 MR. KARABDIC: I have no further questions of
10 this witness. Thank you.
11 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Any cross-examination?
12 MS. RESIDOVIC: May I proceed, Your Honours?
13 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: You may proceed.
14 Cross-examined by Ms. Residovic
15 Q. Good afternoon, sir.
16 A. Good afternoon.
17 Q. I am Edina Residovic, and I am Defence
18 Counsel for Mr. Zejnil Delalic. I am going to ask you
19 several questions. During the examination in chief you
20 said that your unit, which belonged to the Zuconik
21 (phonetic) detachment, took part in the combat
22 operations involving the liberation of Bradina?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Sir, Mr. Ramic, can you tell me who was your
25 commander during those operations?
1 A. During those operations my commander was
2 Zvonko Zovko.
3 Q. Mr. Ramic, if I were to tell you that Zvonko
4 Zovko during the entire operations of the liberation of
5 Bradina was the commander in charge of the entire
6 combat operations of the liberation of Bradina, would
7 you agree with me?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Mr. Ramic, after Bradina was liberated, is it
10 true that your unit, along with other members of the
11 Territorial Defence, undertook search of the entire
12 area of the Bradina village?
13 A. Yes. Part of my unit did conduct a search
14 and also secured the freedom of movement of the
15 civilian defence, which was in the village of Bradina.
16 Q. In light of that fact, Mr. Ramic, can you
17 testify before this Trial Chamber that part -- this
18 part of your unit was finding numerous pieces of weapon
19 in that area in the next month or so?
20 A. Yes. I can testify to that, that even a
21 month and a month and a half later pieces of weaponry
22 were being found in the village of Bradina.
23 Q. Mr. Ramic, is it also true that members of
24 the investigative commission, with which you
25 communicated on one occasion regarding your fellow
1 citizens and to which Mr. Kostic, Mr. Subasic belonged,
2 did ask you to go to a specific place and to collect
3 some weapons from it?
4 A. Yes. The commission did ask me personally to
5 go, along with them and the police. In other words, to
6 take them to the location where some weapons might be.
7 Q. Is it also true that you did find weapons
9 A. Yes, that is correct.
10 Q. Is it also true, Mr. Ramic, that in certain
11 situations the person who owned this weapon would
12 occasionally also go to that location?
13 A. Yes. It happened on several occasions, that
14 if I or the military police was unable to find the
15 weapons, based on the description of the person who
16 owned it, this person would then come with the police
17 escort to show precisely where that weapon was.
18 Q. Mr. Ramic, you answered my previous question
19 by saying that part of your unit did provide secure --
20 the secure freedom of movement. Would you agree with
21 me if I said that after the liberation of Bradina the
22 citizens who remained there, in other words,
23 individuals who were not taken to Celebici, women and
24 others, had absolute freedom of movement, both in that
25 area, in other areas?
1 A. Yes, I can agree with you on that. They did
2 move about freely, both in Bradina and outside of
3 Bradina. We kept a log. Members of my unit kept a log
4 detailing the movement, movements, and we took down
5 exactly who went where and when, and when did they come
7 Q. Mr. Ramic, is it true that these persons
8 could freely come to Brdani, where you were, based on
9 the logbook which you kept in Konjic, and could come to
10 see the members of their families who were detained
11 either in Celebici or at Musala?
12 A. Yes, they could move about freely either go
13 to Brdani, to Konjic, to Celebici, to see their family
14 members. I would take, would drive these persons on
15 many occasions from Bradina to Brdani because it was on
16 my way.
17 Q. Mr. Ramic, is it true that you know that the
18 civilian protection of these civilians was also
19 organised, and that the civilian protection also cared
20 about security of these people?
21 A. Yes. I know that there was civilian
22 protection staff, and this staff did take care of the
24 Q. Mr. Ramic, since the M17 highway had been
25 opened and refugees from other parts of our country
1 moved through that route, was it true that both you and
2 other members of the TO, when asked by the citizens,
3 did provide security for these people, either their own
4 security or security of their property?
5 A. Yes. Any time we received such requests, we
6 would show up to provide protection, if it was needed.
7 Q. Mr. Ramic, is it true that the citizens of
8 your village, Brdani, as well as the villages of
9 Bradina, had a possibility to go and visit their family
10 members at Celebici and bring them food and clothing?
11 A. Yes, that is correct. Every other day they
12 had a right to go to Celebici to take food and
13 clothing. I frequently talked to the persons who were
14 going there.
15 Q. Mr. Ramic, have you ever heard -- did you
16 ever hear of any mistreatment of people or something
17 similar as going on in Celebici?
18 A. No, never. A moment ago I mentioned that I
19 spoke to these persons frequently, that I would give
20 them rides to Konjic or back to Brdani, things like
21 that, but, in any event, I never heard that any one of
22 them had any problems.
23 Q. Mr. Ramic, is it true that certain Serbian
24 families, even though Brdani had a majority Muslim
25 population, stayed the entire war together with you and
1 lived with you?
2 A. Yes, 30 percent of the Serbian population
3 remained in Brdani and lived there, and they lived in
4 Brdani to date.
5 Q. Mr. Ramic, there was an incident in Brdani,
6 however, and it involved a Serbian family. Do you know
7 whether somebody was killed in Brdani?
8 A. Yes, unfortunately. I know that the Draganic
9 family with three members perished.
10 Q. Mr. Ramic, do you know whether an
11 investigation was conducted about this case and whether
12 persons who were suspected of this act were prosecuted,
13 and if you know, when was it? When did this take
15 A. Yes, I do remember this. This was in late
17 Q. What year, please?
18 A. '92.
19 Q. You mean '93?
20 A. '93. I apologise. Yes, it was in '93. It
21 was in '93. I had just come out of the hospital. I
22 was at home with my father, at my father's, and early
23 in the morning I was awakened by my neighbour, that is
24 the neighbour of the Draganic family. Since I was the
25 only person who had a telephone in the village, he told
1 me about this incident and he asked me to do something
2 about it.
3 Q. I assume that, you know, that the MUP
4 commission did come and conduct an investigation on
5 this matter?
6 A. Yes, that is what I was going to say, that
7 the police did come out and conduct an investigation.
8 Q. Mr. Ramic, this last question. What happened
9 to you and how long were you in the hospital, and why?
10 A. I had a traffic accident. I was in a
11 military vehicle. It was a serious accident. I broke
12 my hip, fractured my hip and four ribs, and I was on
13 crutches for the next two or threes months
14 MS. RESIDOVIC: Mr. Ramic, thank you very much. I
15 have no further questions. Your Honours, this
16 concludes my questioning.
17 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Thank you very much. I
18 think we'll have to adjourn 'til 2.30 p.m., when we'll
19 continue with other cross-examination. The Trial
20 Chamber will now rise.
21 --- Luncheon recess taken at 1.03 p.m.
1 --- On resuming at 2.33 p.m.
2 (The witness entered court)
3 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Please remind the
4 witness is on his oath.
5 THE REGISTRAR: I remind you, sir, that you
6 are still under oath.
7 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Kindly take your seat,
9 THE WITNESS: Thank you.
10 MR. KUZMANOVIC: Your Honours, I believe I am
11 next in line, the Defence of Mr. Mucic has no questions
12 for this witness.
13 MS. McMURREY: Your Honours, if I may
14 question from here, I only have one witness.
15 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: You are free.
16 MS. McMURREY: Thank you.
17 Cross-examined by Ms. McMurrey.
18 Q. Sir, Mr. Ramic, we had an opportunity to
19 speak briefly at the break earlier today, didn't we?
20 A. Yes, we did.
21 Q. And for the record, I am Cynthia McMurrey, I
22 am the counsel for Esad Landzo. We had talked about,
23 as Ms. Residovic had asked you, that the families of
24 the detainees, especially the detainees from Brdani,
25 they were able to come and bring food and clean clothes
1 to the detainees at Celebici, weren't they?
2 A. Yes, that's correct.
3 Q. In fact, from your personal knowledge, you
4 know that the wives of many of the detainees and you
5 know that about the ones from Brdani were able to visit
6 with their husbands in Celebici, weren't they?
7 A. Yes, that's correct, three times a week.
8 They were allowed to visit their family to bring food
9 and clothing.
10 Q. And just to put a time on this, the people
11 from Brdani were brought to Celebici sometime at the
12 first day of June or maybe the last day of May, and
13 from the first time that they arrived in Celebici, the
14 families were able to bring food and clothing and have
15 visitation; isn't that correct?
16 A. Yes, that's correct. I personally spoke to
17 people who visited the prison and that means that there
18 were people from Brdani there too. And I spoke to them
19 personally. And I said that sometimes I took them
20 along to Konjic, from Konjic to Brdani.
21 MS. McMURREY: Thank you very much, Mr.
22 Ramic, and thank you, Your Honours.
23 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Mrs. McHenry, do you
24 have any questions?
25 MS. McHENRY: Yes, Your Honour.
1 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: You may proceed.
2 Cross-examined by Ms. McHenry:
3 Q. Good afternoon, sir.
4 A. Good afternoon.
5 Q. Sir, you stated that you were a commander of
6 an independent platoon that belonged to the TO; is that
8 A. Correct. At the beginning this was the
9 Territorial Defence, and later, detachment was
10 organised and I belonged to this detachment.
11 Q. And did you wear a uniform with TO insignia?
12 A. I did.
13 Q. Now, when were you commander of that, the
14 unit, from when to when, approximately?
15 A. In mid-April, up until the end of July, when
16 I was sent to become the assistant commander of the
17 detachment. At the time when commanders Zvonko Zovko
18 went over to HVO. At that time, a new commander was
19 determined and I became this new commander.
20 Q. And is it your testimony, sir, that from
21 mid-April until the end of July, Mr. Zovko Zvonko was a
22 member of the TO or a member of the HVO?
23 A. Zovko Zvonko was a member of the -- he was my
25 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: What period? What
1 period was he a commander?
2 THE WITNESS: From mid-April and I can't
3 remember correctly up until what point he was my
5 MS. McHENRY:
6 Q. Well, sir, you're aware, aren't you, that Mr.
7 Zovko was a member of the HVO from mid-April forward;
8 that's correct, isn't it?
9 A. I don't know, I can't remember. I know that
10 he was my commander. But that was probably a general
12 Q. So it's your testimony, sir, that you cannot
13 remember whether or not for all of May, June and July,
14 Mr. Zovko Zvonko was a member of the HVO or not?
15 A. I was -- I belonged to an independent,
16 platoon I was at Brdani, and I was blocked off, and
17 that's why I belonged to an independent platoon. And I
18 know that I received orders from Zvonko Zovko and
19 whether that was a joint command or whether it belonged
20 to HVO or TO, I don't know.
21 Q. So if I understand you correctly, you don't
22 know whether or not your superior, Mr. Zovko Zvonko,
23 was a member of the HVO or not, did I understand you
25 A. I don't know whether he was a member of HVO.
1 Q. Now when you say you were a member of an
2 independent platoon, that doesn't mean that you weren't
3 a member of the TO, correct?
4 A. It is correct that I belong -- that I was a
5 member of the TO.
6 Q. And so, is it, you would -- is it possible
7 that as a member of the TO, your superior was a member
8 of the HVO, was that kind of reporting normal at this
9 time in Konjic?
10 A. I don't know whether Zovko Zvonko belonged to
11 the TO and if he did whether it was a joint command or
12 whether he belonged to the HVO. I really don't know
13 that and I cannot remember that. It was a long time
15 Q. Can you remember that he wore a red checker
16 board as his insignia?
17 A. I can't remember. I think he did.
18 Q. And you would agree with me that insignia
19 normally signifies someone who is a member of the HVO?
20 A. I don't know.
21 Q. Sir, is it your testimony that you do not
22 know what insignia members of the HVO normally wore?
23 A. I know what insignia they wore, but I cannot
24 remember what Zvonko Zovko had.
25 Q. In the beginning when you were head of your
1 platoon -- your unit, I'm sorry, starting from
2 mid-April, did anyone appoint you to that position or
3 was it just part of your own creation?
4 A. I was appointed by the staff of the
5 Territorial Defence and by the recommendation of the
6 villagers of Brdani.
7 Q. And did you receive your appointment in
9 A. Yes, I did.
10 Q. And did Mr. Zovko Zvonko sign your
12 A. I can't remember who signed it, but I did
13 have it in writing. I think that it was signed by some
14 Boric, but I can't remember exactly.
15 Q. Now, sir, would you agree with me that in the
16 very beginning parts of the war, April, May, June, for
17 instance, there was some confusion, including about the
18 TO and the HVO and lines of authority?
19 A. Could you explain to me?
20 Q. Well, sir, you don't seem to know certain
21 things, such as whether or not your superior was a
22 member of the HVO or TO. And I am asking whether or
23 not there was some confusion at the time about the
24 various entities and lines of authority.
25 MS. RESIDOVIC: I object. The witness said
1 he doesn't know whether it was HVO or the joint
2 command, but he didn't say that there was some
3 misunderstandings or confusions.
4 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: I am not so sure who is
5 in on this witness.
6 MS. RESIDOVIC: I beg your pardon?
7 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: I am not too sure who
8 is --
9 JUDGE JAN: It's Mr. Karabdic's witness.
10 MS. RESIDOVIC: As far as I know other
11 colleagues also made objections if the witness said
12 something before when I had my witnesses. I did not
13 notice that this was unusual.
14 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: It is unusual.
15 MS. RESIDOVIC: Then I apologise. I
16 apologise again.
17 JUDGE JAN: Actually was what he said was
18 that he did not remember, not that there was any
19 confusion. That's what he said. He doesn't remember,
20 whether he belonged to HVO or TO or to joint command,
21 Mr. Zovko. That's what he said.
22 MS. McHENRY:
23 Q. Sir, was there any confusion in the beginning
24 stages of the war about such things as what entities
25 and lines of authority?
1 A. I do not understand the question.
2 Q. Was it possible that as a member of the TO
3 your superior, Mr. Zovko Zvonko, could have been a
4 member of the HVO?
5 A. I said earlier that I was separated, I was
6 separated and I belonged to TO and I know that my
7 commander was Zvonko Zovko. It was a very long time
8 ago. I can't remember every detail. But -- and I
9 also cannot remember whether he was a member of HVO,
10 TO, but I do know that he was my commander and that I
11 received all my orders from him. And I belonged to the
13 Q. Were you aware that during this period of
14 time, both the TO and the HVO were active in Konjic?
15 A. Yes, they were active.
16 Q. And what happened when the TO and the HVO did
17 not agree?
18 A. I remember a joint command and then later HVO
19 and TO separated and the army of BH was created and
21 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Do you understand his
22 position now?
23 MS. McHENRY: Yes, Your Honour.
24 Q. Now, sir, you stated that Mr. Zovko Zvonko
25 was in charge of the operation in Brdani, do you mean
1 that he was in charge of all the troops who
2 participated in the operation of Brdani?
3 A. Zvonko Zovko was the most responsible person
4 for that area and for the operation around Brdani.
5 Q. Well, when you say he was the most
6 responsible, do you mean, do you know whether or not he
7 was in charge of all the troops who participated in the
8 Brdani operation?
9 A. Yes, he was in charge and I personally -- and
10 I remember when he called us before the operation, he
11 called us, or the commanders, where he gave us
12 instructions and orders and so forth.
13 Q. So if I understand you correctly, during that
14 operation, he was in charge of all the TO troops, all
15 the MUP troops and all the HVO troops that participated
16 in that operation; is that correct?
17 A. I don't know about the police, but as far as
18 HVO and TO, yes, I do know that.
19 Q. Now, you stated that the Serbs did not take
20 part in the mobilisation at the beginning of the war;
21 do you remember that?
22 A. The Serbs did not take part in the
23 mobilisation of TO.
24 Q. And how did that mobilisation take place,
25 were there letters written, was it just up to who
1 volunteered, how exactly did the mobilisation take
3 A. The mobilisation started from around the 15th
4 of April, 1992, and both Muslims and Serbs were
5 supposed to be mobilised, but the Serbs did not
6 mobilise, actually the entire population was supposed
7 to be mobilised, but the Serbs did not want to take
8 part in the mobilisation effort.
9 Q. My question, sir, is, how did the
10 mobilisation take place? How were people informed
11 where they should report to such and such a place to be
12 mobilised? Or, was it just up to the person's own
14 A. No, it was not up to their own initiative,
15 but through the staff of the Territorial Defence.
16 Q. Well, sir, do you have any information
17 whatsoever about whether -- how people were informed,
18 that they should be mobilised or should report
19 somewhere for purposes of mobilisation?
20 A. For example, I was one of the representatives
21 of the Village of Brdani. And in this body, there were
22 also people of Serbian ethnic background. So that from
23 the headquarters of the Territorial Defence, we
24 received some instructions, but right after the very
25 beginning, there was a conflict. It started from the
1 demand to set up joint guards. It had to do with the
2 negotiations, but the Serbs refused negotiations and
3 the joint guards. And after that they refused the
4 surrender of weapons and the mobilisation.
5 Q. Well, you stated that as part of the
6 negotiations, the Serbs were told that they should
7 either become members of the TO or if they didn't want
8 to become members, they should give up their weapons.
9 Do you remember that?
10 A. Yes, I do. I remember all those negotiations
11 and meetings. And the demand was to join the
12 mobilisation. And those who did not want to do so,
13 were responsible to surrender their weapons, for which
14 there was no authorisation to carry them. However --
15 Q. Please continue, sir.
16 A. However, the Serbs refused both and they said
17 that -- so they refused mobilisation, and they said
18 that if they have to surrender their weapons, we will
19 have war, which happened eventually.
20 Q. If I understood you correctly, if a Serb then
21 did not have any weapons, that person was not required
22 to become a member of the TO; is that correct?
23 A. They could if they wanted to, but they didn't
24 have to. It was important. The most important thing
25 were the weapons for which there was no authorisation.
1 Q. Now, you mentioned joint guards, a second
2 ago, can you explain to me what you mean by "joint
4 A. The Muslims saw that Serbs have a lot of
5 weapons. And the Serbs had the story that they were
6 scared of some attacks. And then we suggested that if
7 they were scared, and we saw that they had the weapons,
8 we suggested that we should together keep guard to --
9 during the night, to protect both houses of Serbs and
10 Croats. However, they refused that.
11 Q. If I understood you correctly during your
12 direct, after the negotiations, there were some Serbs
13 who either joined the TO or gave up their weapons and
14 that there were other Serbs who did not agree and were
15 part of the Chetnik forces; is that correct?
16 A. Yes. A lot of Serbs who surrendered their
17 weapons -- actually four Serbs -- there were only four
18 Serbs who surrendered their weapons voluntarily.
19 Everybody else took their weapons to shoot against the
20 inhabitants of the Village of Brdani. All those who
21 used their weapons had to surrender them after that.
22 Some of them were captured, but, however, those who did
23 not have any weapons were left in peace and they could
24 move freely just like anybody else.
25 Q. When you say those who did not have those
1 weapons, according to your testimony, you're just
2 referring the those four people; is that correct?
3 A. No, there were more people who did not have
4 any weapons at all and who still live in Brdani today
5 and who had spent the entire war there who wanted to
6 join the TO did so and we have an example where a Serb
7 joined the army and he remained in the army up until
8 the last day.
9 Q. Now, when you say that there were some other
10 Serbs who were part of the Chetnik forces, what do you
11 mean when you say "Chetnik forces"?
12 A. Those are the forces -- for me, they are
13 those forces who did not even want to negotiate, those
14 people who I mentioned earlier, who during the last
15 negotiations were already up in the hills, who only
16 wanted to see war happen.
17 Q. Did the Chetnik forces have any connection
18 with the JNA?
19 A. I think -- I don't know. I don't know.
20 Q. Now, you stated that there was an order from
21 Mr. Zvonko Zovko, that all persons who had weapons or
22 who participated in the fighting in Brdani should
23 report the a command post, were you the person who
24 received that order from Mr. Zovko?
25 A. One morning, Zvonko Zovko, through the
1 security officer, informed the Serbian population, who
2 had some weapons and who were involved in the operation
3 in Brdani, that they should come, that they should come
4 to the command post in Podorasac and this is what they
6 Q. And my question is, who actually received
7 this order from Mr. Zovko?
8 A. The security officer received it and I was
9 also made aware of it.
10 Q. And who is the security officer?
11 A. Nehir Pavo (Phon).
12 Q. Now, you would agree with me that you were
13 one of the persons who implemented that order; is that
15 A. No, it isn't.
16 Q. Well, was it the case that this order for Mr.
17 Zovko was just communicated and there was some kind of
18 honour system where the Serbs just turned themselves
20 A. No, I just knew about this order, but the
21 security officer had a higher rank than me and he was
22 the one who fulfilled this order.
23 Q. And when you say "fulfilled this order," do
24 you mean went around and arrested people?
25 A. Not arrested. After the fall of Brdani, they
1 lived freely, normally in Brdani up until this order.
2 And after this order they had to go to Podorasac and
3 they were free at that time. And in Podorasac, a truck
4 was waiting for them, which took them to the prison at
6 Q. So, according to your understanding, people
7 were free to go to Podorasac, or not to go, it was just
8 up to the individual person; is that correct?
9 JUDGE JAN: That is not what he said. They
10 were all there, not that it was up to them whether to
11 go or not. He hadn't said that.
12 MS. McHENRY: He said they were free.
13 JUDGE JAN: They were free to go there.
14 MS. McHENRY:
15 Q. Were they free not to go? Were they free not
16 to go to Podorasac?
17 A. No, no, they were ordered to go to
18 Podorasac. And those who were not at homes at that
19 point in time when he was making the rounds in the
20 village, they were taken in the evening or the next
21 morning. That means that they had to leave.
22 Q. Sir, you would agree with me that you told
23 people that they were required to go there. You went
24 around to various houses and various people and told
25 persons that they had to go to Podorasac, correct?
1 A. No, it is not. I did not do that.
2 Mr. Spago Nedzad was a security officer and went from
3 house to house.
4 Q. And you never informed any person about any
5 -- you never informed any Serb person about this order
6 at all? Is that your testimony?
7 A. The order was received by the officer and
8 following this order he went to Brdani and he informed
9 the villagers. And this all happened within an hour,
10 because Brdani is about a kilometre or two away from
12 Q. Your testimony is you had nothing to do with
13 this; is that correct?
14 A. I had nothing to do with it because the Serbs
15 turned in their weapons. They did not want to join the
16 TO. And they didn't bother me without weapons, as
17 such. They were not a threat to the village, so they
18 were able to continue to move about freely, like the
20 Q. About how many men from Brdani were taken to
22 A. Somewhere around 50.
23 Q. Now, you stated that Mr. Slobodan Zelenovic
24 had a weapon. How do you know that, sir?
25 A. The Serbs, who compiled the list of who owned
1 what, contained the name of Slobodan Zelenovic. And
2 after the fall of Bradina, he returned to Brdani, and
3 when we asked him to turn in the weapons, when we asked
4 him where it was, because his colleagues told us that
5 he had some, then he told us that the weapons, that the
6 weapons were in Bradina. And later they were found.
7 And also Slobodan Zelenovic's father said that he --
8 that he had given his weapons to his son, Sloboran
10 Q. And did the father say that to you?
11 A. Yes, he said it to me.
12 Q. And when was that?
13 A. Together with Zvonko Zovko, I was present
14 when the weapons were recovered. So that was after the
15 fall of Bradina, when part of the Serbs who had been
16 disarmed was taken. And those who were able to go back
17 home, who had not been arrested -- sorry.
18 Q. Sir, I am going to ask that you listen to my
19 question very carefully and that you only answer my
20 question, please. When was it that Mr. Zelenovic's
21 father --
22 A. After the fall of Bradina, when the weapons
23 were being surrendered.
24 Q. And is this before or after Mr. Zelenovic was
25 taken to Celebici?
1 A. This happened before Mr. Zelenovic went to
3 Q. And did you see this list yourself that was
5 A. Yes. The Serbs compiled a list and we had
6 this list. I had it and Zvonko Zovko and I don't know
7 who else.
8 Q. And where is this list now?
9 A. Later on I took the weapons to the command
10 post in Podorasac, and a list went along with it, and I
11 believe that it ended up there. And it was -- the
12 turning in of the weapons was taken down in the report.
13 Q. Okay. Do you have a copy of that report?
14 A. I don't have it here.
15 Q. Now, there was a time that Mr. Rajko Draganic
16 surrendered a weapon to you, wasn't there?
17 A. Rajko Draganic. I cannot remember.
18 Q. Let me ask you this. Do you remember taking
19 Mr. Draganic's car away from him?
20 A. Mr. Draganic's car was taken by the TO for
21 its own use, and it was done together with the police.
22 Q. And you were involved in taking
23 Mr. Draganic's car, weren't you?
24 A. No. It was the police. Mr. Draganic had a
25 car which was a Yugo make and he had given it to a
1 friend, so the car was not in his possession. And I
2 remember that there was a TO order that this car be
3 taken for the use of the TO. I remember that he had
4 several cars and that there were -- they were taken for
5 the use of the TO.
6 Q. And you were commander of the TO unit in
7 Brdani, weren't you?
8 A. Yes, but Rajko Draganic lived closer to
9 Podorasac than to Brdani. He was just born in Brdani
10 and his father lives up there, but he built a house
11 much closer to Podorasac than to Brdani.
12 Q. Sir, let me move forward. You indicated, if
13 I understood you correctly, that you went to Celebici
14 to see about getting four people who had been wrongly
15 imprisoned released. Is that correct?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. And when was this, approximately?
18 A. That day, when I received information that
19 the people who had surrendered the weapons upon request
20 were also taken to Celebici. When I learned that, I
21 went to Celebici and I submitted request in writing to
22 the commission.
23 Q. Sir, let me ask you to just listen to my
24 question. If you don't know the answer to my question,
25 you can just say, "I don't know." My question was:
1 When was it, approximately, that you went to Celebici
2 to get these four persons released?
3 A. I believe that it was on that or the
4 following day. So I can't tell you whether it was on
5 that day or the following one.
6 Q. Would it have been in the end of May or
7 beginning of June, sir?
8 A. I believe it was in early June. I believe it
9 was in early June, but the day when all the Serbs were
10 taken from Brdani, that is when those four were also
11 taken. I believe that it was on that day that I went
12 to Celebici.
13 Q. Approximately how many times did you go to
14 Celebici in all?
15 A. Three times.
16 Q. Okay. And you indicated that you saw
17 Mr. Lokas in Celebici; is that correct?
18 A. I saw him, but whether it was the first or
19 the second time, I don't remember that. But I did see
21 Q. Okay. Who else did you see -- besides the
22 commission members, did you know anyone else who worked
23 in Celebici?
24 A. I saw the guards. I saw security on that
25 occasion when I came there. I saw the military police,
1 the police, the guards. I was at the gate while all
2 this was going on regarding this request.
3 Q. Did you know any guards who worked in
4 Celebici at any time?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. What are the names of those guards?
7 A. I knew the members of the then MUP. I knew
8 Dzajic, I knew Hazim Delalic. In fact, I saw him at
9 that time. It was a long time ago, and it's a detail
10 to recall all the persons whom I saw there.
11 Q. The guard that you know named Mr. Dzajic,
12 what is his first name and his nickname, if you have
14 A. I don't know his first name, and I only know
15 him as Dzajic. I have -- I did not spend much time in
16 Konjic, in fact, and I did not know these people very
17 well. I knew them by sight.
18 Q. And what was Mr. Hazim Delic doing when you
19 saw him in the camp?
20 A. I saw Hazim Delic, he was a HVO policeman. I
21 remember him being on crutches at that time.
22 Q. And, sir, if you can't remember what your own
23 superior was, how is it that you remember that
24 Mr. Delic was a HVO police officer?
25 A. Even later Mr. Delic, along with another few
1 police officers, came to Brdani and Bradina to the
2 checkpoint, with or without persons who were in
3 detention, looking for weapons. Part of my platoon was
4 in Brdani, part was in Bradina, so that I was
5 constantly shuttling back and forth. And those days we
6 were involved in search of weapons, so I saw him.
7 Q. And did Mr. Delic wear HVO insignia?
8 A. Delic. I am not sure whether he wore any
9 insignia, but at that time there was no TO police, so
10 he could only have been a HVO police officer. There
11 was the MUP police force and the HVO police force.
12 Q. And did you talk to Mr. Delic about what his
13 role was in the camp, or the fact that he was a
14 military police officer?
15 A. No, I never talked to him.
16 Q. How is it you know that Mr. Delic was a
17 military police officer at that time?
18 A. I know because he had a white belt on just
19 like his colleagues did, and I know that he took part
20 in this search for weapons. I know that he would come
21 to search for them with or without persons who were in
23 Q. And you remember that every time you saw him
24 he had a white belt; is that correct?
25 A. It was when I saw the camp to Celebici for
1 the first time, and on later occasions -- I am not sure
2 that he had it on every time, but I remember the first
3 time he did, and maybe later on too. The police had
4 their own uniforms and the belts, the white belts.
5 Q. Was Mr. Delic manning the gate when you saw
7 A. No, he was up there somewhere near the
8 administration building, and I remember well that he
9 was on crutches, so I was a bit -- so I was wondering a
10 little bit why he was on crutches. I remember that
12 Q. Was he just walking around or was he standing
13 guard outside the building, or just what was it that he
14 was doing when you saw him?
15 A. No, I don't know what he was doing. I was
16 standing at the gate and he was standing inside. What
17 he was doing, that I don't know.
18 Q. He was standing inside, meaning you saw him
19 through a window, sir?
20 A. No, no, no. I saw him from the gate. He was
21 at the administration building.
22 Q. Was he standing still or was he walking
24 A. He was walking on crutches.
25 Q. Now, did you ever see Mr. Mucic at Celebici?
1 A. Never. I was only there three times and I
2 never saw him.
3 Q. The other two times you were in Celebici,
4 what were you doing?
5 A. The second time it was the oath giving, and
6 there was another subsequent time I was on duty as
7 assistant commander for logistics. And inside the
8 compound was a weapons specialist, that is a person who
9 repaired weapons. We had several rifles that had been
10 broken, so I was using him to repair them.
11 Q. And was the person repairing weapons, was
12 that a prisoner or was it a soldier, TO soldier, or
13 some other kind of soldier?
14 A. It was a soldier who was a member of the TO.
15 Q. Now, in Celebici or Musala you went several
16 times and saw some detainees, didn't you?
17 A. When I came for the weapons, I saw a number
18 of detainees inside the area where they were kept.
19 That is, I saw a part of them. The door was wide open,
20 it was high summer.
21 Q. At any point in Celebici or Musala did you
22 see Sreten Zelenovic?
23 A. No, never in Celebici, and I never went to
25 Q. Did you ever indicate to any detainees that
1 you could help get them released if they would pay
3 A. I personally did not need to go to the
4 prison. I had no contact with the guards, I had no
5 contact with the commission, who was the only authority
6 that could release the authorities.
7 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Did you hear the
8 question? Counsel asked whether you could assist them
9 for a fee.
10 THE WITNESS: No, never.
11 MS. McHENRY:
12 Q. Now, sir, you stated that family members were
13 allowed to go visit Celebici and visit the prisoners.
14 Is that from the very -- is it the case that that is
15 from the time that -- the very first time that Celebici
16 was opened?
17 A. Yes, they could visit their family members
18 from the very beginning to take them -- to bring them
19 food and clothing.
20 Q. And your testimony is they could visit the
21 prisoners every other day; is that correct?
22 JUDGE JAN: Three times a week he said.
23 MS. McHENRY:
24 Q. I'm sorry, three times a week.
25 A. Three times a week. That is correct, yes.
1 Q. And were you ever at Celebici when anyone was
2 allowed to see one of the prisoners?
3 A. No. I was there three times altogether. The
4 first time, as I already said, I came to -- for those
5 four. That was the day when they had been detained, or
6 the next day. The second time it was for the oath
7 taking, and the third time when I brought those
8 weapons. But I gave a ride a number of times to the
9 people who went there. These were my neighbours, male
10 and female. I would take them to Konjic or, if I went
11 beyond Konjic, to Celebici also.
12 MS. McHENRY: No further questions. Thank
14 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Thank you very much.
15 Any re-examination? Mr. Karabdic, any re-examination
16 of this witness?
17 MR. KARABDIC: My colleague, Tom Moran and I,
18 have made an agreement that he would examine the next
19 witness, so I need to call him. But as far as this
20 witness is concerned, no, I do not have any further
21 questions of him.
22 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Mr. Moran is here now.
23 JUDGE JAN: He is just in time.
24 MR. MORAN: Your Honour, I was watching on
25 television, so I knew I would be right on time.
1 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: You have no questions.
2 Thank you very much, sir. You are discharged now. May
3 we have the next witness. You can leave now.
4 (The witness withdrew)
5 MR. MORAN: Your Honour, while they are
6 bringing him in, I just thought I would tell you a few
7 housekeeping things that we -- some scheduling things.
8 We have delivered to the registry a package of
9 documents which we are planning on introducing. We've
10 asked the registry to pre-mark them. So if we run out
11 of witnesses, the reason is so that the registry, at
12 its convenience, can mark these documents rather than
13 all of us sitting here while 183 documents are marked.
14 I believe you can see them directly in front
15 of you, Judge Odio-Benito. I believe you are looking
16 at them. Those will come in tomorrow through Amira
17 Klaric. She is number four on our list. Also I have
18 another witness that is waiting after this one.
19 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Your next witness, Emir
20 Dzajic, is it?
21 MR. MORAN: The next witness we have is
22 Mr. Djacic, and then Ms. Klaric is number four on the
23 list. But because of the pre-marking, we thought that
24 it would be more convenient for all concerned if we
25 waited until the registry had everything marked and
1 then just bring her in. She is a custodian of record.
2 Since she can explain how the records are kept and what
3 they are. And that's all of the knowledge she has
4 about this case.
5 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: All right.
6 MR. MORAN: I thought it would be much more
7 convenient for the Tribunal.
8 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Swear the witness,
10 THE WITNESS: I solemnly declare that I will
11 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the
13 WITNESS: Emir Dzajic
14 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: You may sit down, please
15 Examined by Mr. Moran
16 Q. Good afternoon, sir.
17 A. Good afternoon.
18 Q. Would you please introduce yourself to the
19 Trial Chamber.
20 A. Emir Dzajic.
21 Q. And, Mr. Dzajic, where are you from?
22 A. From Konjic.
23 Q. And do you still reside in Konjic?
24 A. Konjic municipality in Celebici.
25 Q. And are you employed, sir?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. And what do you do for a living?
3 A. I am a driver with the Federation Army.
4 Q. Okay. And what is your rank in the
5 Federation Army, sir?
6 A. Sergeant.
7 Q. Sir, in May and June, July and August of
8 1992, how were you employed?
9 A. I was a driver with the MUP in Konjic.
10 Q. And, sir, in May of 1992, in fact on May the
11 20th of 1992, did your unit take part in any military
12 activity around the Village of Donje Selo?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Were there any other military formations
15 taking part in these military operations with you, sir?
16 A. The HVO military police.
17 Q. Sir, at this time did the TO have any
18 military police or were all of the military policemen
19 part of the HVO?
20 A. Only the HVO part.
21 Q. Sir, when you and your comrades first arrived
22 in Donje Selo -- first, how did you get there? Did you
23 march in or did you take vehicles or how did you get
25 A. By vehicles. Vehicles.
1 Q. And was one of those vehicles equipped with a
2 loud speaker?
3 A. Yes, two of them.
4 Q. And was that loud speaker used to summon
5 someone, asking them to come out?
6 A. Yes, it was.
7 Q. And who was that? Do you know, if you
9 A. Osman Novalic from the MUP of Konjic.
10 Q. And he was using the loud speaker to ask
11 someone to come out and surrender; is that correct?
12 A. Yes, it is.
13 Q. And who was he looking for?
14 A. Lazar Cecez. Since they worked together.
15 Q. When you say they worked together, were they
16 both in the MUP, or was he a traffic policeman, or do
17 you know?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Sir, which is it? Was he a member of MUP or
20 was he a traffic policeman?
21 A. He was about 10 to 15 days before that day.
22 Q. Which one, sir? Was he a traffic policeman
23 or was he in MUP?
24 A. He was a traffic policeman.
25 Q. Fine. Thank you very much. Do you know why
1 Mr. Osman was causing Lazar Cecez to come out?
2 A. To surrender the weapons.
3 Q. Do you know if there was information that
4 Mr. Cecez had weapons?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Sir, did Lazar Cecez surrender as he was
7 asked or what happened after he was asked to
9 A. Everything would have been fine if he had
11 Q. I take it from your answer that he did not
12 surrender, sir?
13 A. No, he did not.
14 Q. At any time during that day, did your unit
15 receive any fire from the Serbs?
16 A. Yes, from the upper side of the railroad.
17 Q. And, sir, how much was it? Was it just a
18 shot or two or was it a large volume of fire?
19 A. It was a stronger attack, which was prepared
20 before that.
21 Q. Okay. Sir, who fired the first shots, if you
22 know? Was it the MUP and the police and the HVO or was
23 it the people living in the village?
24 A. Probably the aggressor.
25 Q. Sir, there will be some disagreement over who
1 is the aggressor. When you say the "aggressor," do you
2 mean the --
3 A. The Serbs.
4 Q. The people living in the village?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Do you know whether they had any prepared
7 defensive positions?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Did you see those positions, sir, after the,
10 after the fighting was over with?
11 A. You could see it before and after the
12 shooting. And you could not pass through the main
13 road, M-17.
14 Q. Sir, these positions that were blocking the
15 main road, M-17, based on your experience and training
16 as a sergeant in the Army of the Federation, how long
17 would it take to prepare positions like that? Do you
18 have any idea?
19 A. Of whose positions?
20 Q. Positions that the Serbs had, the prepared
21 positions on the top of the railroad, was that
22 something that could have been done in the morning, or
23 would it have taken several days to prepare these
24 positions, if you know?
25 A. They had enough time.
1 Q. Okay. About how long did this shooting last,
3 A. Two to three hours.
4 Q. And what caused the fighting to die out? Did
5 the one side leave the battle field or did night fall
6 or did everybody run out of ammunition or what?
7 A. We received an order to withdraw.
8 Q. And, sir, did you go back the next day?
9 A. We returned the same night.
10 Q. And when you returned that night, was there
11 another battle or what happened then?
12 A. No, there was no new battle. We did a count
13 and we were missing two of our comrades.
14 Q. Did you find them the next day, sir?
15 A. Yes, behind the Serb positions.
16 Q. And what condition were they in?
17 A. In a very ugly condition.
18 Q. Were they alive or dead?
19 A. They were dead.
20 Q. Sir, did you search the area after you found
21 your comrades' bodies?
22 A. Yes, we did.
23 Q. Did you find any weapons?
24 A. Yes, we did. We found some medications, some
25 weapons and in two to three stables we found a lot of
1 weapons, Russian weapons, a machine gun, M-53,
2 binoculars, knives, but I would rather say sabres, not
3 knives and metal and steel bats.
4 Q. And, sir, did you take any prisoners on
5 either day?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. How about many prisoners did you take if you
9 A. I only remember Snjezana Zivak.
10 Q. And do you know what happened to those
12 A. Yes, I do. Yes, I do.
13 Q. And what happened to them, sir?
14 A. Those who were in the woods and caught there
15 ended in Celebici.
16 Q. Do you know whether they were abused or
17 beaten by the people that captured them?
18 A. I don't -- I don't know. I did not see that.
19 Q. Sir, on that day, were you wounded?
20 A. Yes, I was. My leg was wounded.
21 Q. Oh, by the way, approximately how prisoners,
22 if you know, were captured in the Village of Donje Selo
23 when you were there, if you know?
24 A. I don't know the exact number.
25 Q. Do you know approximately, roughly? I mean,
1 was it a few or a lot? Or, you know, five or a hundred
2 or a thousand? Just roughly.
3 A. A few.
4 Q. Okay, sir. Sir, after you were wounded, how
5 long were you in the hospital?
6 A. Four to five days.
7 Q. And after you got out of the hospital, how
8 were you assigned?
9 A. I went to Celebici.
10 Q. And at Celebici, what were your duties, sir?
11 A. I was a driver.
12 Q. And by the way, sir, when you were assigned
13 to Celebici, who was your commander?
14 A. Rale Musinovic.
15 Q. Sir, this man sitting behind me with the
16 sunglasses on, that's Pavo Mucic, did you see Pavo at
17 Celebici at all?
18 A. I beg your pardon?
19 Q. The man sitting behind me with the sunglasses
20 on is Pavo Mucic, do you know Pavo?
21 A. Not very well.
22 Q. Did you see him very many times while you
23 were at Celebici?
24 A. Once, once.
25 Q. Okay, sir, while you were at Celebici, did
1 you have an occasion to meet a woman named Milojka
2 Antic and her brother, a man named Cedo Antic?
3 A. Yes, I did.
4 Q. And how did you meet them? How did that
6 A. They were brought to us, to our unit. They
7 were interrogated by the expert commission to say
8 whether they have any weapons or not.
9 Q. And were you present during the
10 interrogation, sir?
11 A. I was -- I only brought them to the
12 interrogation room.
13 Q. Okay. By the way, when these people were
14 brought to the interrogation room, were their hands
15 tied or were they beaten or threatened or anything like
17 A. Never was anybody beaten or tied.
18 Q. Sir, did you hear any of the interrogation of
19 either Ms. Antic or her brother?
20 A. I was only called to go with them to the
21 Village of Idbar to take the weapons.
22 Q. Okay, that's what I was going to get into
23 next. That's exactly what I wanted to talk about, did
24 you take either Milojka Antic or her brother, Cedo to
25 the village to look for weapons?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Was it one of them or both of them?
3 A. It was both of them.
4 Q. And did anyone besides you go with them?
5 A. A military policeman of the HVO, Hazim
7 Q. And when you got to the village, did you find
8 any weapons?
9 A. We did find a semi-automatic rifle, M-48, at
10 Milojka's under a cherry tree in the garden.
11 Q. And who pointed that out to you?
12 A. The brother, for his rifle, on the chicken
13 coop and Ms. Antic under the cherry tree, she did.
14 Q. Okay, so there were two rifles that you
15 found, one --
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. And did you make a report for your superiors
18 about the time --
19 A. Yes, I did.
20 Q. And at the time you made that report, were
21 you an experienced report writer, or was this the first
22 report you'd ever done?
23 A. My first report.
24 Q. Looking back on it, were there some things
25 you'd put in it and some things you might leave out and
1 some things you might do differently?
2 A. I don't know what you mean by that.
3 Q. Is there some things you left out of the
4 report or some things you wished you put in now or some
5 things that you'd put back in the report back then that
6 you'd wished you left out?
7 A. Yes, yes.
8 Q. Your Honours, with the help of the usher, I
9 have a copy of that document.
10 A. The differences...
11 Q. Yes, sir, the differences? Okay. Hold on a
13 A. The differences were that in the first report
14 we did not put in it, his sister, because we thought
15 that there was no need.
16 Q. When you say "his sister," are you referring
17 to Milojka Antic?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Sir, a document was just placed in front of
20 you, it's Document D/...
21 THE REGISTRAR: It's Defence document
23 Q. Is that a copy of the report that you made on
24 the 18th day of June in 1993?
25 A. Yes, it is.
1 Q. And is that your signature down at the bottom
2 or a copy of your signature because this is a copy?
3 A. Yes, it is.
4 Q. And do you recognise the signature above
6 A. I do.
7 Q. And whose signature is that?
8 A. The signature of Hazim Delic.
9 Q. By the way did you see Hazim physically sign
10 the original of this document? If you did, you did, if
11 you didn't, you didn't?
12 A. Together.
13 Q. Okay. You did it together?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Sir, while you were at Celebici, did you have
16 occasion to deal with a women named Grozdana Cecez?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. And do you know if -- what her relation is
19 to Lazar Cecez?
20 A. No translation.
21 Q. Do you know what her relationship was to
22 Lazar Cecez? Do you know if they were husband and
23 wife? I am not getting a translation, Your Honour?
24 A. Yes, I do, they were.
25 Q. Okay. Did you engage in any interrogation of
1 Mrs. Cecez at the direction of Rale Musinovic?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. And what were you trying to find out?
4 A. We tried to find out things about her husband
5 and other people that we did not find in the lower
6 village with regard to the weapons.
7 Q. And did you get any useful information from
8 Ms. Cecez?
9 A. She did not want to say anything. She said
10 that she didn't know anything.
11 Q. In your presentation, was she beaten or
12 coerced or threatened in any way to give information?
13 A. No, nobody did it while I was there.
14 Q. Sir, did -- were you ever present at any time
15 when Ms. Cecez was sexually assaulted by anyone?
16 A. Never, never.
17 Q. Did you have much contact with Ms. Cecez or
18 Ms. Antic during your time as a driver in the camp?
19 A. I would bring her food, cigarettes and
20 occasionally and to Grozdana Cecez even flowers.
21 Q. Did you bring them coffee?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Did you do that on more than one occasion?
24 A. Yes, on more than one occasion.
25 Q. And at any time did either of those two women
1 ever complain to you that they had been sexually
3 A. To me?
4 Q. Yes, sir, to you, did they ever tell you that
5 someone had sexually assaulted them?
6 A. While I was there, no.
7 Q. Okay. Are you familiar with Mr. Delic's --
8 well, let me back off just a second. When you came to
9 the camp and were first assigned there, that was in
10 what, late May or early June of 1992?
11 A. I beg your pardon?
12 Q. Yes, sir, when you were first assigned to
13 Celebici after you first got out of the hospital, about
14 when was that, late May or early June of 1992?
15 A. In early June.
16 Q. And what was your physical condition at the
18 A. I was wounded. I couldn't move.
19 Q. Okay. Were you on crutches or --
20 A. No, I wasn't, I was helping myself with my
21 healthy foot.
22 Q. Okay. Do you know whether Mr. Delic at that
23 time was on crutches?
24 A. Yes, he had two crutches.
25 Q. And do you know what Mr. Delic's duties were
1 at that time?
2 A. He had none.
3 Q. Well, what did he do with his days? Did he
4 just sit around and drink coffee -- or, I guess in his
5 case, tea. Or did he perform any minor duties around
6 the camp?
7 A. He was doing more sitting than walking
9 Q. Okay. And he was a member of the HVO
10 military police, you said that, didn't you?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Do you know if he was an officer?
13 A. No.
14 Q. Was he just an ordinary policeman?
15 A. He was an ordinary policeman.
16 Q. And did he have the authority to issue any
17 orders to you?
18 A. Never.
19 Q. Sir, while you were at the camp, were family
20 members permitted to visit their relatives who were
21 incarcerated there?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. And when did that begin, if you recall?
24 A. I don't know the exact date, but I know it
25 was done on Mondays, Wednesdays and Fridays.
1 Q. Was it in middle of June, late June or early
2 June, or if you don't recall, you don't recall?
3 A. I don't remember exactly.
4 Q. And were these family members allowed to
5 bring their relatives food or cigarettes or clothing or
6 other things?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. And that food and clothing was given to them,
9 wasn't it, given to the prisoners?
10 A. Yes, it was.
11 Q. Do you know who was in charge of that?
12 A. Masic from Celebici.
13 Q. Okay. There came a time, didn't there, when
14 some members of the TO were assigned to the prison as
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. And do you remember about when that was?
18 A. I don't know exactly.
19 Q. Do you remember who was in command of those
20 members of the TO?
21 A. Sejo Mustafic.
22 Q. I would like to ask you a bit about the
23 conditions in the camp, both for the staff and for the
24 inmates. Let's first talk about food, okay. For the
25 last couple of days, you've been living in the Bel Air
1 Hotel down the street, and since I live there too, I
2 have seen the meals you've been eating. Were they
3 eating the same kind of meals we're eating down there?
4 A. They did eat, but not similar meals.
5 Q. How about you, were your meals -- what were
6 your meals like?
7 A. The same as theirs.
8 Q. And do you know where that food was cooked?
9 A. The city.
10 Q. And how did that food get to the prisoners,
11 if you know?
12 A. By car with a driver, Ustalic Zlatan.
13 Q. Ustalic, is that the name?
14 A. Yes, it is.
15 Q. Okay. And was the food tasty or was it
16 plain, what kind of food was it? Tell us a little bit
17 about the food.
18 A. Whatever it was, what could you do.
19 Q. Was there often bread with it?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Do you know, and if you don't know, that's
22 fine, whether the prisoners got the same amount of food
23 that you got?
24 A. Yes, the same.
25 Q. How about the -- let's talk a little bit
1 about the sleeping facilities. Was the camp crowded?
2 A. No.
3 Q. What did the prisoners use for toilet
4 facilities; do you know?
5 A. Yes, I do know.
6 Q. And what did they use, sir?
7 A. The inmates from No. 22 used the toilet in
8 the command facility. No. 6 and 9 had outside
9 toilets. And they had a place for them to use. And
10 the ladies who were at the gate had toilet facilities
12 Q. Sir, the facilities, the outside facilities
13 that you just described, were those what we would call
14 in the military a field toilet?
15 A. Yes, field and some toilets were made which
16 were better, but such were the conditions.
17 Q. But they're similar to the kind of field
18 facilities that the army of the federation would use
19 today if you go to the field to train?
20 A. Yes, we still use such facilities.
21 MR. MORAN: Your Honour, I have about ten or
22 fifteen minutes. Would this be a convenient point to
23 break? It's a subject chain.
24 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Yes, we will take a
1 --- Recess taken at 4.00 p.m.
2 --- On resuming at 4.34 p.m.
3 (The witness entered court)
4 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Please remind the
5 witness he is still on his oath.
6 THE REGISTRAR: I remind you, sir, that you
7 are still under oath.
8 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Yes, you may sit down.
10 THE WITNESS: Thank you.
11 MR. MORAN: May it please the court.
12 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Yes.
13 MR. MORAN: Thank you very much, Your
15 Q. Sir, I want to jump back to something we
16 talked about a little bit before, and mainly because
17 there is three things I forgot to do. Your report that
18 is marked as D26/3, who ordered you to make that
19 report, if you recall?
20 A. I believe it was the commanding officer.
21 Q. And who was that? Who was the commanding
22 officer that you are referring to?
23 A. (No translation).
24 THE INTERPRETER: Sorry, we are not getting
25 the interpretation. There is no interpretation into
2 MR. MORAN: Can we try again? Are the
3 Bosnian interpreters hearing this?
4 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: It's coming through
6 MR. MORAN:
7 Q. Sir, when you say the commander ordered you
8 to write it, what was that man's name?
9 A. Rale Musinovic.
10 Q. And do you remember who actually wrote that
11 document? Was it you or was it Mr. Delic or do you not
13 A. Delic wrote it and I signed it. In fact, we
14 both signed it.
15 MR. MORAN: Your Honour, I move to admit
16 Exhibit D26/3. That's the report.
17 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: The Prosecution?
18 MS. McHENRY: No objection, Your Honour.
19 MR. MORAN: Thank you.
20 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: It's admitted.
21 MR. MORAN:
22 Q. Sir, one other question along the line of
23 commanders. Who was the commander of the HVO military
24 police while you were assigned to the Celebici prison?
25 A. Dzevad Alibasic.
1 Q. He was commander of the HVO. What was Jerko
2 Kostic's job there?
3 A. Jerko Kostic was the chief commander, but
4 this man, Alibasic, was in charge down at Celebici.
5 Q. When you say Jerko Kostic was the chief
6 commander, what do you mean by that, sir?
7 A. That he could issue orders.
8 Q. To everybody in the camp or just to some
9 people in the camp?
10 A. To the HVO military police personnel.
11 Q. Okay. Let me go back to what we were talking
12 about right before the break. Sir, let's talk a little
13 bit about the water supply in Celebici, both for the
14 guards and the prisoners. Was there sufficient water,
15 drinking water?
16 A. There was enough for it for a very large
18 Q. Sir, was this water clean water or was it
19 some kind of industrial, polluted water that may have
20 had, oh, pieces of --
21 A. Clean water.
22 Q. And was the water you were drinking the same
23 water that the guards -- that the prisoners had?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. While you were there, sir, did you see any
1 prisoners who were shot?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Tell the judges about that.
4 A. A larger group of Serbs was brought, which
5 had been captured with weapons during combat
6 operations, and among them was a young man of about
7 20. And when I guess they started to question him, I
8 guess he didn't want to admit anything and he started
9 to run. Several warnings were issued and he wouldn't
10 heed it and, in short, he was killed.
11 Q. Do you know who shot him, sir?
12 A. No.
13 Q. Do you know his name?
14 A. No.
15 Q. Do you remember about when this occurred?
16 A. Between May -- June. June.
17 Q. Do you remember, sir, whether it was in early
18 June or late June?
19 A. I believe early June.
20 Q. Okay. Do you remember, if you know, was he
21 lined up along the wall near the gate when he tried to
22 run or was he someplace else in the camp?
23 A. At the back exit gate.
24 Q. When you say the back exit gate, sir, you can
25 stand up and look in front of you. There's a model of
1 the camp, which is, I believe, Prosecution Exhibit 2.
2 If that -- when you say the back gate, do you mean the
3 gate by the administration building or the gate where
4 the train came in? You can walk up -- why don't you
5 just walk over and look. The shooting was somewhere
6 around there?
7 A. Yes.
8 MR. MORAN: Your Honour, may the record
9 reflect that he pointed to a hill that's in the middle
10 of the camp somewhere between building 22 and building
11 6? Can the record reflect that?
12 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, Your Honour.
13 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Your statement will be
15 MR. MORAN: Thank you very much, Your
16 Honours. You can sit down now again.
17 Q. I may have asked you, and if I did, we'll
18 just -- someone will point it out and I'll stop there.
19 The women that were held in the camp, there was
20 Grozdana Cecez and Milojka Antic. Did you ever have
21 coffee with them?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. You brought them -- as I recall, you
24 testified you brought them cigarettes and food and
25 flowers for Ms. Cecez; is that right?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Did you bring them coffee on more than one
4 A. More. On several occasions.
5 Q. Sir, they were confined in the gate house at
6 the front of the camp by the gate; is that correct?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. And that would be Building A on that model,
9 Prosecution Exhibit 2? You might have to go up and
10 take a look at it again. That building? Okay.
11 Building A?
12 A. Yes.
13 MR. MORAN: Your Honour, could the witness be
14 given Prosecution Exhibit 1, which is the photo album.
15 And if the technical people could turn on the ELMO so
16 we can see. If the usher would open it to page -- it's
17 marked 2 in the upper right-hand corner of the -- and
18 put it on the ELMO. No, that's not the right page.
19 It's the page after that. It's marked page 2 in the
20 upper right-hand corner of the -- no. Upper left-hand
21 corner. Sorry. Someday I will learn my left from my
22 right. No, the -- this one. Are we missing a page?
23 Maybe I can help. I have a copy in Bosnian. This is a
24 copy in Bosnian. There is several copies. Okay.
25 Q. Now, looking at that chart, could you take --
1 there should be a pointer there either on the side
2 where the picture -- where the actual original is.
3 There we go. Could you point on the original paper,
4 the overhead projector which is off at your right,
5 which room the women were confined in. Just put --
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Would you point to that, put the pointer on
8 the -- no, you have to do it on -- off to your right.
9 There we go. Okay. And that's the room that says --
10 it says in Bosnian there, but on the copy I've got it
11 says in English the word "weapons." Is that correct?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Now, that room has a window in it; is that
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Have you been in that room?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. You have probably been in that room a lot of
19 times, both when you were assigned there during the war
20 and since then; is that true?
21 A. When food or coffee or something similar
22 needed to be brought there.
23 Q. Now, if you look out that window, can you see
24 the entrance to tunnel number 9?
25 A. You see the Rudar factory and the Village of
2 Q. In fact, that looks out towards the gate,
3 doesn't it?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Now, there's a room next to that room that's
6 labelled "guard room" in -- that's correct. Now --
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. In June of 1992, who was in that room?
9 A. Guards. Security.
10 Q. And there is a door between the room that
11 says "weapons," and it shows on there on the chart a
12 door between the room that says "weapons" and the room
13 that says "guard room."
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Was that door open or closed when the women
16 were being held in there?
17 A. Closed, and they are still closed today.
18 Q. And was it locked?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. And next to that door there is a little room
21 called "main hall." Will you point to it so -- okay.
22 That shows a door between the weapons room and the main
23 hall. Was that door opened, closed, blocked? Do you
24 recall, sir?
25 A. It was locked.
1 Q. And was there something that was in front of
2 it so that you could not use that door, like a wardrobe
3 or lockers or something like that?
4 A. Like wardrobe, and there was also a bar
5 there, which was put there even before the ladies were
6 brought in there.
7 Q. And it's still there to this good day, isn't
8 it, like that?
9 A. That's correct.
10 Q. Now -- by the way, were the women allowed to
11 use the toilet facilities in that guard room?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. And they could use them whenever they wanted?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Point to the toilet facilities on that chart,
16 if you would, please, sir. It should be the room that
17 says "toilet." Thank you. Now, when they were
18 confined in that room that's marked "weapons," is there
19 any reasonable way that those women could have seen the
20 entrance to tunnel number 9 or know what was going on
21 around the entrance to tunnel number 9?
22 A. Never. If they were on top of the building,
23 maybe they could.
24 Q. But not from inside the room?
25 A. Right.
1 Q. Sir, when did you leave the Celebici prison?
2 When were you transferred out of there?
3 A. End of June.
4 Q. Sir, in the time that you were assigned to
5 the Celebici camp, was Hazim Delic ever the deputy
7 A. Never during the time when we were there.
8 Q. Sir, with the exception of that one person
9 that you saw shot, did you see any prisoners beaten,
10 shot, stomped, burned, abused?
11 A. Nothing, with the exception of a certain
12 Susic who was killed by the Serbs.
13 Q. Tell the judges about that.
14 A. The Village of Lape was nearby and I
15 frequently went to my girlfriend's, which was -- who
16 was close by. And in the morning, when I arrived
17 there, I was told that a certain Serb arrived there and
18 that the Serbs themselves were -- killed him, Zara. I
19 didn't know them very well. And this had happened in
20 tunnel number 9, where they were placed.
21 Q. Okay. By the way, this is the first time
22 you've ever testified, isn't it?
23 A. First time.
24 Q. And are you a little nervous?
25 A. A little bit.
1 JUDGE JAN: He looks cheerful.
2 MR. MORAN: Your Honour, I think he's a
3 little scared.
4 Q. Sir, when you were transferred out of the
5 Celebici camp to other duties, that was just a routine
6 transfer; is that correct?
7 A. How do you mean?
8 Q. You were just transferred to other duties,
9 for just -- like people get transferred in everybody's
10 army every day?
11 A. Correct. Correct.
12 Q. And at that time, by the way, had your leg
13 wound pretty well healed?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. And what were your new duties?
16 A. It was the same. I was going to drive a
17 vehicle for the unit.
18 Q. And that's a MUP unit?
19 A. Yes.
20 MR. MORAN: Your Honour, I thank you very
21 much and I pass the witness.
22 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Thank you very much.
23 Any cross-examination?
24 MS. RESIDOVIC: Your Honours, Defence for
25 Mr. Zejnil Delalic has no questions for this witness.
1 Thank you.
2 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Any cross-examination by
3 Mucic's counsel?
4 MR. KUZMANOVIC: Yes, Your Honour. I just
5 have a few questions. Thank you.
6 Cross-examined by Mr. Kuzmanovic
7 Q. Good afternoon, sir.
8 A. Good afternoon.
9 Q. I represent Mr. Mucic in this case. Was
10 Mr. Mucic ever commander of Celebici when you were
11 present at the camp?
12 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: He's indicated --
13 A. Never.
14 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: -- commander, as he
16 MR. KUZMANOVIC:
17 Q. While you were at the camp you said
18 Mr. Musinovic was the commander?
19 A. Correct.
20 Q. And you said after Mr. Musinovic,
21 Mr. Alibasic was commander, correct?
22 A. Correct.
23 Q. How do you Mr. Alibasic was the commander
24 after Mr. Musinovic?
25 A. Because we were supposed to leave the unit,
1 this Alibasic came and he took over.
2 Q. And that was something that you witnessed
4 A. Correct.
5 Q. You saying during the time you were in
6 Celebici you saw Mr. Mucic one time?
7 A. Only once.
8 Q. And what was the occasion of you seeing him
9 that one time?
10 A. I was washing the car about 50 metres away
11 from this structure that is displayed here on the
12 monitor near this water -- what's the name of it? The
13 hydrant. And I saw him as he passed over to my
14 commanding officer, and he was carrying something, I
15 believe it was cigarettes or something. And he
16 retraced his steps very quickly. That's all I saw.
17 Q. Was he wearing a uniform?
18 A. He was in civilian clothes.
19 Q. And how often would you be present on or in
20 the area of the camp during the time that you were
22 A. During the day, yes, but at night rarely. I
23 would go to get some rest.
24 Q. And this is during the month of June of 1992?
25 A. Right.
1 MR. KUZMANOVIC: No further questions, Your
3 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Thank you very much.
4 Any other questions, please?
5 MS. MCMURREY: Yes, Your Honour, I have a
6 couple of brief questions.
7 Cross-examined by Ms. McMurrey
8 Q. Good afternoon.
9 A. Good afternoon.
10 Q. My name is Cynthia McMurrey and I represent
11 Mr. Esad Landzo, and we had just an opportunity to
12 speak for just a few moments back in the witness room,
13 didn't we?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Now, you said that -- of course you left the
16 camp at the end of June; isn't that right?
17 A. Right.
18 Q. And in the middle of June a new unit of young
19 military police guards arrived in Celebici, didn't
21 A. Correct.
22 Q. And about how many young military police
23 soldiers arrived at that time?
24 A. About seven or eight, somewhere around there.
25 Q. Thank you. And one of those military
1 policemen that arrived in the middle of June was a
2 young soldier named Esad Landzo, wasn't it?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. And you said you didn't know Mr. Landzo well,
5 but you had seen him around the camp; isn't that true?
6 A. During that brief period.
7 Q. And when you saw him, what was your
8 impression of Mr. Landzo at that time?
9 A. He was a lad, and any lad is like another
11 Q. When you say "a lad," did you mean he was
12 like a boy?
13 A. Correct
14 MS. McMURREY: Thank you very much. I have
15 no further questions.
16 THE WITNESS: Your welcome.
17 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Any cross-examination by
18 the Prosecution?
19 MS. McHENRY: Yes, Your Honour. Thank you.
20 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: You may proceed now.
21 Cross-examined by Ms. McHenry
22 Q. Sir, would you agree with me that the
23 operation in Donje Selo occurred approximately May 20th
24 to May 21st?
25 A. Yes, I would.
1 Q. And if I understood you correctly, you were
2 in the hospital for four to five days after that, and
3 then you were sent immediately to Celebici, which would
4 put you there somewhere around the 24th, 25th or 26th.
5 Is that correct?
6 A. Yes, it is.
7 Q. Okay. And you stated you were a driver for
8 the MUP; is that correct?
9 A. Yes, it is.
10 Q. How long had you worked for the police before
11 you were sent to Celebici?
12 A. I started on the 14th of February, 1992.
13 Q. And what kind of uniform did you wear when
14 you were in Celebici?
15 A. Half a civilian, half a military uniform.
16 Q. And is that because there was a shortage of
18 A. We did not have enough of them.
19 Q. You would agree with me, certainly, that you
20 were a member of the police rather than a civilian,
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. And how were you identified as a police
24 officer? If someone looked at you, how would they know
25 that you are a police officer?
1 MR. MORAN: Excuse me, Your Honour, I think
2 that's a little mischaracterisation of the evidence,
3 and it may be an Americanism. When she says police
4 officer, that would imply that he was a commissioned
5 officer. In fact, he was not. He was --
6 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: It might be helpful to
7 us when he answers.
8 THE WITNESS: But we did have cards, so that
9 we could search, so that we could conduct searches, we
10 did have those.
11 MS. McHENRY:
12 Q. So am I correct that just by looking at you,
13 someone would not know that you were a police officer,
14 but you could show them your card; is that your
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. And is it also the case that in this time
18 there were many civilians going around in
19 military-looking uniforms?
20 A. Where?
21 Q. In Konjic.
22 A. I do not understand.
23 Q. I am asking whether or not there were
24 civilians in Konjic who would wear military-looking
25 outfits, such as camouflage, pants or tops, even though
1 they were civilians?
2 A. The civilians couldn't wear them.
3 Q. Now, were any TO soldiers part of the Donje
4 Selo operation that you've described?
5 A. Yes, only as security.
6 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone to the witness,
7 please, the second microphone.
8 MS. McHENRY:
9 Q. I'm sorry, sir, let me just make sure I
10 understand. If I understood you correctly, the police
11 were participants in the actual military operation and
12 the TO soldiers merely provided security; is that
14 A. Yes, that is correct.
15 Q. And was this a normal division of
16 responsibilities, where the police conduct battles and
17 the soldiers provide security, or was this something
19 A. It was normal for the beginning.
20 Q. And was there a time -- was there a
21 difference between how things worked in the beginning
22 and how things worked later on?
23 A. I do not understand the question.
24 Q. Well, maybe you can just explain to me, why
25 is it that the police were conducting battles and the
1 TO soldiers were merely providing security in the
3 A. Because they had some weapons.
4 Q. Now, when you were first sent to Celebici,
5 who else worked in Celebici besides you in terms of,
6 were there other people from the MUP who worked in
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. And what function did the other MUP members
11 A. They were inspectors.
12 Q. And who were the inspectors? What were their
13 names that you remember?
14 A. Ilija Halilovic, Mirsad Subasic. Some person
15 called Hodza, I don't know his exact name. Some person
16 called Kuhar, I also don't know his name. I think
17 there was also Kostic and Lokas.
18 Q. And they were inspectors who worked in the
19 camp, correct?
20 A. Yes, that's correct.
21 Q. And were they part of the military
22 investigation commission that worked in the camp?
23 A. They examined the inmates about weapons.
24 Q. And were all these people from the Konjic
1 A. Most of them were from the Konjic MUP and
2 from MUP and the HVO.
3 Q. Wasn't it the case that there was a member of
4 the TO who was a member of the military investigation
5 commission also?
6 A. Maybe, I don't recall.
7 Q. And besides the MUP members, what other
8 bodies were present in the camp?
9 A. Later there was a group of TO, which was
10 headed by Sejo Mustafic.
11 Q. And when, approximately, did this group of TO
12 persons come?
13 A. I don't remember exactly.
14 Q. Do you remember if it was at the beginning
15 part of your time there or at the end part or you just
16 don't remember?
17 A. I don't remember.
18 Q. And how did these persons dress when they
19 were in the camp?
20 A. Which people?
21 Q. The TO persons.
22 A. The same as we did.
23 Q. And that would mean some military clothing
24 and some not?
25 A. Yes, we didn't have enough.
1 Q. And what was the function of the TO persons
2 in the camp? What did they do within the camp?
3 A. They secured the buildings.
4 Q. And when you say "they secured the
5 buildings," can you just tell us what that means?
6 A. Security of the outer part of the buildings.
7 Q. And were there any HVO soldiers who worked in
8 the camp?
9 A. Yes, military police of the HVO.
10 Q. And were they there the entire time that you
11 worked in the camp?
12 A. No.
13 Q. Approximately when were they there and when
14 were they not there?
15 A. I don't remember exactly.
16 Q. Well, do you remember if they were there and
17 then they left or were they not there for some period
18 of time and then they arrived?
19 A. I was not interested in that.
20 Q. And did the HVO military police dress like
21 the rest of you or did they dress differently?
22 A. They dressed the same.
23 Q. Now, was there a time that some TO military
24 police officers came?
25 A. I told you just a while ago.
1 Q. So when you were telling me about the TO
2 persons who came under Sejo Mustafic?
3 A. Sejo Mustafic with a group of soldiers.
4 Q. Were these soldiers TO military police?
5 A. They were TO, whether they were a military
6 police or not, I don't know, but they were TO.
7 Q. Now, you indicated that Mr. Musinovic had a
8 role in the camp. Now was Mr. Musinovic in charge of
9 the prisoners and the guards?
10 A. He was just in charge of us from the MUP.
11 Q. And was Mr. -- did Mr. Musinovic have that
12 role up until the end of June when you left or did he
13 leave earlier than that?
14 A. We left together.
15 Q. So did Mr. Musinovic have any -- well, let me
16 ask, before the TO soldiers came, who acted as guards
17 in the prison?
18 A. Before us you mean? Before the MUP?
19 Q. Well, then let me go back, sir. Is it the
20 case that when you were at the camp, MUP members were
21 guards for the prisoners?
22 A. Yes, that happened too.
23 Q. Well, besides MUP members, when you first
24 went to the camp, who else acted as guards? Well, let
25 me put it this way, sir, is it the case that there were
1 persons who worked in the camp as guards and you don't
2 know what body they belonged to?
3 A. I don't know.
4 Q. Well, let me go to the time when you first
5 were at the camp, before the TO soldiers came, did
6 anyone besides MUP members act as guards for the
7 prisoners or you don't know?
8 A. I do not know.
9 Q. Now, after the TO soldiers came in the middle
10 of June, is it the case that MUP members and the TO
11 soldiers both acted as guards for the prisoners?
12 A. It was seldom at that time that MUP people
13 were security.
14 Q. So they sometimes acted as guards for the
15 prisoners, but not most of the time; is that correct?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. And --
18 MR. KUZMANOVIC: Your Honours, I believe that
19 the witness didn't say "yes," I believe he said "who,"
20 referring to who the guards were.
21 MS. McHENRY:
22 Q. Let me just repeat my question, sir, in case
23 there's some issue. Is it the case that after the TO
24 soldiers came in mid-June, the MUP soldiers, MUP
25 persons, sometimes still acted as guards, but not most
1 of the time?
2 A. Seldom.
3 Q. Now, who was commander of the prison in terms
4 of who was in charge of what happened to the prisoners
5 when you were there?
6 A. Our commanding officer was Rale Musinovic.
7 Q. But if I understood you, he didn't always
8 have authority over what happened to the prisoners, or
9 did Mr. Musinovic, during the entire time that you were
10 there, have authority over what happened to the
12 A. I do not know what was happening to the
14 Q. Well, maybe you can then -- please explain to
15 me the difference between the authority of Mr.
16 Musinovic, Mr. Alibasic and Mr. Mustafic?
17 A. Musinovic had the authority to give us orders
18 to conduct searches and he had nothing, he had no other
19 authority within the compound. And I do not know what
20 Alibasic, what kind of authority Alibasic had because
21 he was not my superior and the same goes for Sejo
22 Mustafic -- Musinovic.
23 Q. Now you said something about the authority of
24 Mr. Kostic, could you just, please, tell us again what
25 you understood the authority of Mr. Kostic to be?
1 A. He had authority over the HVO police.
2 Q. And who did Mr. Alibasic have authority
3 over? You may have said this before, but I am
4 confused, so, who did Mr. Alibasic have authority
6 A. Alibasic belonged to the HVO and who he had
7 authority over, well, the number of people he had is
8 known. He was probably also superior to Hazim Delic.
9 Q. Well, do I understand that you don't know the
10 difference in authority between Mr. Kostic and Mr.
11 Alibasic; is that correct?
12 A. Would you please repeat the question?
13 Q. Well, I understood you to say that Mr. Kostic
14 had authority over the HVO and that Mr. Alibasic had
15 authority over HVO people and I am asking if you know
16 the difference in the authority?
17 A. Superior was Kostic and Kostic could give
18 orders to Alibasic to fulfil his duties.
19 Q. And how do you know that?
20 A. I just know that's the way it was supposed to
22 Q. Well, you would agree with me that it was,
23 that Mr. Kostic was also an inspector and, according to
24 you, none of these other inspectors had authority over
25 the various entities who worked in the camp?
1 A. Could you please repeat the question?
2 Q. Well, you indicated that Mr. Kostic, along
3 with a list of five or six other people, worked as an
4 inspector in the camp. Now you're also saying that in
5 addition to working as an inspector, Mr. Kostic had a
6 much wider authority in addition to being an inspector;
7 is that correct?
8 A. No, that is not correct.
9 Q. Did all the inspectors have an equal amount
10 of authority?
11 A. I don't know.
12 Q. Is it a fair statement, sir, that you don't
13 know what authority Mr. Kostic had?
14 A. I was not interested to find out.
15 Q. And does that mean that you agree with me
16 that you have, you don't know what authority Mr. Kostic
18 A. I do not know.
19 Q. And you also don't know what authority Mr.
20 Alibasic -- Mr. Alibasic had; is that correct?
21 A. I don't know.
22 Q. Now, do you know what authority Mr. Hazim
23 Delic had?
24 A. He had no authority.
25 Q. Well, how do you know that?
1 A. A wounded soldier is good for nothing.
2 Q. So because he was wounded, you assumed he had
3 no authority; is that correct?
4 A. He had no authority.
5 Q. And besides your assumption that he had no
6 authority because he was wounded, do you have any other
7 source of information for your statement that Mr. Delic
8 had no authority?
9 A. He had never had any authority.
10 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: You're limiting your
11 questions to the period he was there.
12 MS. McHENRY: Yes, Your Honour, certainly.
13 Q. All my questions are referring, sir, to the
14 period that you were there.
15 My question, sir, is if you don't know, for
16 instance, what kind of authority Mr. Alibasic had, how
17 do you know what kind of authority Mr. Delic did or did
18 not have?
19 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: He has told you why he
20 thinks --
21 THE WITNESS: Alibasic came, arrived after we
22 had left Celebici, ma'am.
23 MS. McHENRY:
24 Q. Besides Mr. Delic, was there anyone else in
25 the camp on crutches when you were there?
1 A. Don't know.
2 Q. Well, did you, yourself, see anyone else in
3 the camp besides Mr. Delic who was using crutches?
4 A. No.
5 Q. Now, in addition, you indicated that at some
6 point in the middle of June, Mr. Esad Landzo came to
7 the camp. Did Mr. Landzo have a nickname?
8 A. I don't know.
9 Q. Do you have a nickname, sir?
10 A. Yes, Role.
11 Q. Do you know whether there any other members
12 of Mr. Landzo's, Esad Landzo's family working in the
14 A. No.
15 Q. Now, you indicated that after the operation
16 in Donje Selo, certain items were found, including
17 steel bats; do you mean a steel baseball bat?
18 A. No, just steel bats were made in a military
19 facility called Igman.
20 Q. And what happened to those steel bats?
21 A. They were given to the head of the public
22 security office in Konjic.
23 Q. When you and Mr. Musinovic left Celebici at
24 the end of June, were there other MUP members who left
1 A. All.
2 Q. And about how many people was it besides you
3 and Mr. Musinovic?
4 A. Fifteen to twenty.
5 Q. And, if you know, who came to take over the
6 place? Who came to replace these 15 or 20 people who
7 were leaving?
8 A. I don't know. I just know the commanding
10 Q. Who was the commanding officer?
11 A. There were never any officers there, military
13 Q. Well, who was the commanding person, even if
14 he wasn't a military officer?
15 A. Alibasic after we had left.
16 Q. And do you know whether or not additional TO
17 soldiers came after you left?
18 A. No.
19 Q. Do you know whether or not the TO soldiers
20 who had arrived in mid-June, did they remain in the
21 camp, if you know?
22 A. I don't know after we had left.
23 Q. Now, when you were there, would you be there
24 everyday when you worked there?
25 A. No.
1 Q. How many days would you be there a week?
2 A. According to the needs.
3 Q. Well, for approximately the month of June, if
4 you say it has 30 days, approximately how many days
5 were you present in the camp?
6 A. I was there maybe about 20 days.
7 Q. And you said you were sometimes there at
8 night, but seldom, about how many days in June, how
9 many nights were you present during the night in June,
11 A. It was seldom because I had a girlfriend who
12 lived around there.
13 Q. Did you have any duties other than acting as
14 a driver?
15 A. I was just a driver.
16 Q. Besides the one occasion that you've told us
17 about where you went with Mr. Delic and Mr. Antic --
18 well, let me ask, on that occasion when you went with
19 Mr. Delic and Mr. Antic, did you go as a driver or did
20 you go in some other capacity, such as investigator?
21 A. We received information from our superiors
22 and we went there just to fulfil our duty. I was the
23 driver and also the assistant at the same time, the
24 assistant of Mr. Delic.
25 Q. Would Your Honours want me to continue? I
1 have not finished my cross-examination.
2 MR. MORAN: We have no problem with breaking,
3 but we have about five or ten minutes, something that
4 we need to discuss in a private discussion, Hopefully
5 today, having to do with the issuance of a subpoena.
6 JUDGE JAN: The subpoena?
7 MR. MORAN: Yes, Your Honour, the one whose
8 wife who wouldn't let him come. Your Honours, it
9 appears that the wives in former Yugoslavia are very
10 much like wives in America.
11 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: We will have to break
12 and continue tomorrow morning.
13 MR. KUZMANOVIC: Your Honour, before the
14 break, I just wanted to add that in the transcript it's
15 referred to consistently, Mr. Musinovic is referred to
16 as Mr. "Mujezinovic" so I would like the record to
17 reflect that it should be Musinovic and not
19 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Thank you very much. I
20 think the transcripts will take care to make the
22 The Trial Chamber will now rise and
23 reassemble tomorrow morning at 10.00 a.m.
24 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at
25 5.30 p.m., to be reconvened on the
1 30th day of June, 1998, at 10.00 a.m.