1 Tuesday, June 30, 1998 10.10 a.m.
2 (In open session).
3 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Good morning, ladies and
4 gentlemen. May we have the appearances now.
5 MS. McHENRY: Good morning, Your Honours,
6 Teresa McHenry for the Prosecution, along with Mr.
7 Turone and Mr. Huber. Mr. Niemann is another courtroom
8 and will join us later in the day. Thank you.
9 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: May we have appearances
10 for the Defence, please.
11 MS. RESIDOVIC: Good morning, Your Honours.
12 I am Edina Residovic, Defence counsel for Mr. Zejnil
13 Delalic, along with my colleague, Mr. Eugene
14 O'Sullivan, professor from Canada. Thank you.
15 MR. KUZMANOVIC: Good morning Your Honours,
16 Tomslav Kuzmanovic along with our legal assistant, Niko
17 Djuric, on behalf of defendant, Zdravko Mucic.
18 MR. KARABDIC: Good morning, Your Honour, I
19 am Salih Karabdic, Defence counsel for Mr. Hazim Delic,
20 along with Mr. Tom Moran, attorney from Houston, Texas.
21 MS. BOLER: Good morning, Your Honours, my
22 name is Nancy Boler, I represent Esad Landzo, along
23 with Cynthia McMurrey, who will be joining us in a few
25 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Ms. McHenry, you're
1 still cross-examining. May we have the witness now.
2 MR. MORAN: Your Honours, before we bring the
3 witness, there's a couple of short housekeeping matters
4 I would like to bring to the trial chamber's
5 attention. The first is the request for subpoena on
6 Mr. Ustalic and his wife won't let him come without a
7 subpoena. Will the Trial Chamber please entertain
8 issuing that one.
9 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: We'll try and ensure
10 that it's issued.
11 MR. MORAN: And the other housekeeping matter
12 is this: We have a tape of one of the prosecutor's
13 witnesses being interviewed on television. And there
14 is some question over the date that this occurred. Our
15 information is that the tape was on February 17th,'97,
16 approximately a month before the witness testified.
17 The Prosecutor is unsure. That is the subpoena we
18 requested for Belgrade Television. We would re-urge
19 that subpoena and I would also inform the Court that my
20 secretary in the States is trying to see if there is
21 some way that there is a company in America that
22 downloads these things from satellite and then
23 rebroadcasts them through cable television. We're
24 trying to authenticate it that way, but I think we need
25 to re-urge the subpoena for Belgrade Television just to
1 prove the date. The Prosecution tells me that in good
2 faith they cannot stipulate to the date and it is a
3 fairly important piece of evidence for the Defence.
4 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: In that respect, you do
5 your homework and then make the proper application.
6 MR. MORAN: Yes, Your Honour. Well, we've
7 already requested that subpoena and I just wanted to
8 re-urge it and to inform the Court what we're doing so
9 that, you know, you understand that we're trying
10 everything in good faith and why we're seeking these
11 two subpoenas.
12 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Thank you very much.
13 MS. BOLER: Your Honours, may I just say one
14 thing. I would just like to concur with Mr. Moran's
15 opinion that a subpoena will be necessary for Mr.
16 Ustalic. I spoke to him in Konjic when I was there
17 yesterday and he tells me that his mother is very
18 frightened for him to leave, but he's on our witness
19 list as well. So I concur with Mr. Moran's opinion
20 about a subpoena for Mr. Ustalic.
21 (The witness entered court)
22 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Kindly swear the
24 THE REGISTRAR: May I remind the witness that
25 he's still under oath.
1 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: You may proceed, Ms.
3 MS. McHENRY: Thank you, Your Honour.
4 THE WITNESS: EMIR DJAJIC.
5 Cross-examined by Ms. McHenry:
6 Q. Good morning, sir.
7 A. Good morning.
8 Q. Now, sir, are you sure that you were at the
9 camp until the end of June or could it have been
10 earlier that you left?
11 A. Until the end of June.
12 Q. Now, you stated yesterday that there were no
13 other members of Mr. Landzo's family who worked in the
14 camp; is that correct?
15 A. I don't know.
16 Q. Now, did you ever hear Mr. Landzo talk?
17 A. With whom?
18 Q. Well, let me just ask you, you would agree
19 that Mr. Landzo has an unusual voice, wouldn't you?
20 A. I don't understand.
21 Q. Would you -- have you ever heard Mr. Landzo
22 say anything to anyone?
23 A. Never.
24 Q. Let me just clarify an issue. Yesterday you
25 stated in direct testimony, line 2746, that the
1 commander of the HVO military police, when you were
2 assigned to Celebici prison, was Mr. Alibasic. Now I
3 now understand that when you said that, it was a
4 mistake and you now say that Mr. Alibasic did not come
5 to the camp until the time you left. Is that correct?
6 A. After we left, he came.
7 Q. Did the War Presidency or the courts or the
8 Ministry of Justice, did they have anything to do with
9 the Celebici prison?
10 A. As far as I know, they didn't.
11 Q. Now, given that there are a number of
12 different entities in the camp, including the MUP, the
13 TO and persons from the HVO, who was in charge of
14 coordinating the activities of these different bodies
15 as it related to the prison?
16 A. I don't know what coordinator is.
17 Q. I'm sorry, I didn't ask you what a
18 coordinator is, I asked you, given that there were a
19 number of different entities there, I assume someone
20 tried to coordinate their activities; is that correct
21 or not?
22 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: No, that's asking him
23 who is the coordinator is.
24 MS. McHENRY:
25 Q. Well, sir, did any person or persons do
1 anything to coordinate the activities of the different
2 bodies who worked in Celebici camp?
3 A. Only whoever belonged to whatever group.
4 Q. And was there anyone who was supposed to make
5 sure that the groups worked together in running the
6 camp? If you know.
7 A. I don't know.
8 Q. Now, you stated that you brought Mr. Cedo
9 Antic and Mrs. Milojka Antic to their interrogations,
10 so am I correct that in addition to your duties as a
11 driver, you sometimes brought prisoners to be
13 A. Sometimes.
14 Q. Now, you and Mr. Mucic do not have any
15 dispute or bad relations between you, do you?
16 A. I don't know why we would.
17 Q. And as far as you know, you do not; is that
19 A. I don't understand.
20 Q. You're not aware of any bad relations between
21 yourself and Mr. Mucic, are you?
22 A. I only saw Mucic once.
23 Q. Well, now if Mr. Mucic gave a statement where
24 he spoke about seeing you and Mr. Delic mistreat
25 prisoners being brought for interrogations by beating
1 them with a rifle butt and other things, would that
2 have been the time that you saw Mr. Mucic?
3 JUDGE JAN: It was a little complex
5 MS. McHENRY: Yes, Your Honour.
6 JUDGE JAN: Ask him the first part of Mucic
7 said this and then whether it was on that occasion
8 because he doesn't know what to answer and what not to
9 answer. So he will have a tendency to answer the
10 latter part of your question.
11 MS. McHENRY: Fair enough, Your Honour, thank
13 MR. KUZMANOVIC: Your Honour, excuse me, he
14 answered the question, but it was not translated or
15 recorded on the transcript.
16 MS. McHENRY: All right. Let me just ask it
18 Q. Now, sir, were you and Mr. Delic beating
19 prisoners who were brought for interrogation at the
20 time that you saw Mr. Mucic?
21 A. Never.
22 Q. Now, you would agree that it's possible that
23 Mr. Mucic could see you on occasion in the camp when
24 you didn't see him?
25 MR. KUZMANOVIC: Your Honour, I object to the
1 question, it's asking him to speculate.
2 MS. McHENRY:
3 Q. Sir, are you able to answer that question?
4 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: It's possible.
5 MR. KUZMANOVIC: I renew my objection.
6 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: It's a possibility that
7 he could see him without him knowing it. There's
8 nothing irregular about that.
9 MS. McHENRY:
10 Q. Now, sir, I assume you don't know why Mr.
11 Mucic would say he saw you mistreating prisoners if it
12 didn't happen?
13 MR. KUZMANOVIC: Again, Your Honour, I am
14 going to object, it's asking him to figure out what Mr.
15 Mucic said and asking him to inquire into Mr. Mucic's
16 state of mind.
17 MS. McHENRY: He can answer to the best of
18 his ability, Your Honours.
19 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: He said he doesn't know
20 him. He's seen him only once. How can he figure why
21 he should?
22 MS. McHENRY: I assume he can say then he
23 doesn't know why Mr. Mucic would have said this.
24 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: He wouldn't know.
25 MS. McHENRY:
1 Q. Is it the case that you don't know why Mr.
2 Mucic would say he saw you mistreating prisoners if it
3 weren't true?
4 A. Never.
5 Q. But Miro Golubovic was imprisoned Tunnel No.
6 9, wasn't he?
7 A. Which Golubovic?
8 Q. Miro Golubovic. Do you know a Miro
10 A. Barely.
11 Q. And he was imprisoned in Tunnel No. 9, wasn't
12 he, for at least part of the time that he was in
14 A. I don't know.
15 Q. You once brought Mr. Golubovic a blanket and
16 some toiletries, didn't you?
17 A. I don't remember.
18 Q. And so I assume you also don't remember
19 whether or not it was Mr. Mucic who told you to bring
20 those items. I assume you don't remember. In fact,
21 let me withdraw that question.
22 Now, sir, the investigative commission
23 stopped working while you were still in Celebici,
24 didn't they?
25 A. I don't know.
1 Q. Well, did there come a time when they stopped
2 coming to the camp, or you just don't remember?
3 A. I don't remember and I wasn't around all the
5 Q. Now, how much time did Mr. Musinovic spend in
6 the camp?
7 A. I don't know that person.
8 Q. I'm sorry, it's probably my pronunciation,
9 sir. Mr. Rale Musinovic, how much time did he spend in
10 the camp?
11 A. As much as I did.
12 Q. Would he be there for most of the day?
13 A. As needed.
14 Q. Well, would he usually just be there for a
15 few minutes a day or for a large part of the day?
16 A. As needed.
17 Q. Well, can you give us some idea of what was
18 needed? I know it could change, but can you give us
19 some idea, was he sometimes there most of the day, was
20 he --
21 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Is this witness in
22 charge of this other gentleman?
23 MS. McHENRY: No, he's not in charge of it,
24 but --
25 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Then how can he then
1 tell you as many times as he would be needed.
2 MS. McHENRY: He could certainly, I believe,
3 tell me when he saw him there.
4 THE WITNESS: What thing?
5 MS. McHENRY:
6 Q. Sir, do you have any idea, any information,
7 about how much time Mr. Rale Musinovic spent in the
9 MR. KUZMANOVIC: Your Honour, I think he's
10 already answered that, he said as much as he had.
11 JUDGE JAN: He's being a little evasive,
12 maybe sometimes he was there for the whole day,
13 sometimes only for an hour. She wants to find out what
14 was usually the time he spent in the camp.
15 THE WITNESS: There was no need for me to
16 write that or remember that.
17 MS. McHENRY:
18 Q. Is it then the case that you have no memory
19 of how much time Mr. Musinovic spent in the camp?
20 A. He had his duties and I had mine.
21 Q. Well, I'll just take that as a "yes" then,
23 Did Mr. Musinovic have an office in the camp,
24 and if so, where was his office?
25 A. There were no offices there, just rooms for
1 -- with beds where people slept.
2 Q. So if I understood you correctly, Mr.
3 Musinovic did not have an office in the camp? Is that
5 A. It wasn't a real office.
6 Q. Was there a room where he spent most of his
7 time when he was in the camp?
8 A. Very little.
9 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: What are the duties of
10 this Rale Musinovic? What are his duties? What does
11 he do?
12 THE WITNESS: He spent very little time
14 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: As what? Is he a fellow
15 driver or is he somebody on some other duties in the
17 THE WITNESS: For the most part he dealt with
18 logistics, provision of food and such. And he received
19 orders from the superior command.
20 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Thank you.
21 MS. McHENRY:
22 Q. And who was the superior command as you
23 understood it?
24 A. Probably the MUP or the TO or the HVO, to
25 whomever he belonged to.
1 Q. Is it your testimony, sir, that you don't
2 know to whom -- what entity Mr. Musinovic belonged?
3 A. I was not interested in that.
4 Q. Now, when Mr. Musinovic was not in the camp,
5 was there anyone else who took over his duties?
6 A. I don't know.
7 Q. Was there any other driver in the prison
8 besides you?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Okay. And who was that?
11 A. Zlatan Ustalic, Buric. There were several.
12 Q. And Mr. Zlatan was in charge of driving the
13 food; is that correct?
14 A. Yes. Yes.
15 Q. And was there any difference between your
16 duties and Mr. Buric's duties as drivers?
17 A. I don't understand.
18 Q. Well --
19 MR. KUZMANOVIC: Excuse me, Your Honours. It
20 should be Buric. I'm sorry, counsel, it's listed as
21 "Boric". It should be "Buric" in the transcript.
22 MS. McHENRY: Once again, it's probably my
23 pronunciation, so I apologise.
24 Q. If I understood you, you were a driver and
25 Mr. Buric was a driver. My question is: Was there any
1 difference in your duties? How was it decided when you
2 would drive and when he would drive and when one of you
3 would do something else?
4 MS. RESIDOVIC: Apologies, Your Honours, the
5 identical error occurred. Again we have "Boric"
6 instead of Buric, B-U-R-I-C.
7 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Thank you.
8 A. I was driving our car of the MUP police.
9 MS. McHENRY:
10 Q. And what car did Mr. Buric drive?
11 A. You should ask him that.
12 Q. Does that mean you don't know, sir? If you
13 don't know an answer to a question, sir, all you have
14 to do is say "I don't know."
15 A. I don't know.
16 Q. Did Mr. Buric work in the prison the whole
17 time that you were working there?
18 A. I don't know.
19 Q. Okay. To your knowledge, was there any
20 dispute between you or bad relations between you,
21 between you and Mr. Buric?
22 A. I don't know.
23 Q. Now, I know you stated that Mr. Delic was not
24 a deputy commander, and I know that you stated that he
25 was wounded and spent more or had an injury, and he
1 spent more time sitting than standing. Do you know if
2 Mr. Delic had any duties in the camp at all?
3 A. At that time he didn't, except that he would
4 sometimes keep guard and he would go with the doctors
5 to the hospital, to the doctors who came to the camp,
6 and he would sometimes bring milk to the prisoners.
7 Q. So sometimes --
8 A. And medicine.
9 Q. So sometimes he acted as a guard, sometimes
10 he went to the hospital, and sometimes he brought milk
11 to the prisoners; is that correct? That's what you
12 know about Mr. Delic's duties?
13 A. Yes, that's correct.
14 Q. Okay. Now, is it your testimony, sir, that
15 during the entire time you were at Celebici camp --
16 MS. RESIDOVIC: I apologise, Your Honours.
17 There is a mistake, a very important mistake, actually,
18 as far as my client is concerned. The transcript says
19 this is about Delic and it says "Delalic" in the
20 transcript. I would like to ask you that these are
21 corrected because it is very difficult for us to listen
22 to the proceedings and watch the transcript at the same
24 MS. McHENRY:
25 Q. Sir, during the time that you were at
1 Celebici, is it your testimony that you never saw any
2 prisoner being mistreated?
3 A. Never.
4 Q. Did you ever hear any screams or sounds of
6 A. Never while I was there.
7 Q. Did you ever see any prisoners with injuries
8 on them?
9 A. Rarely, but only with those who came from the
10 woods before, and before they came to the camp.
11 Q. And how would you know when you saw a
12 prisoner with injuries? How would you know that that's
13 a prisoner who came from the woods?
14 A. If they -- if I was there the day they appear
15 -- came to the camp, it was easy to recognise them.
16 Q. Did you ever hear any reports or rumours that
17 any prisoners were being mistreated in Celebici?
18 A. No.
19 Q. Okay. Now, you mentioned building number
20 22. What was building -- was building 22 used as an
21 infirmary when you were at the camp?
22 A. It was an empty building.
23 Q. So if I understand you correctly, when you
24 were at Celebici camp, there were no prisoners kept in
25 building 22; is that correct?
1 A. When we came, there was nobody there.
2 Q. And --
3 JUDGE JAN: When you left.
4 MS. McHENRY: Exactly.
5 Q. And when you left, was it the case that
6 prisoners were not in 22 also?
7 A. I don't quite understand the question.
8 JUDGE JAN: It's a very simple question. You
9 said when you went to Celebici -- it's a very simple
10 question. You were asked, did you find any people in
11 this room number 22. You said when you went to the
12 camp, there was none. She wants to find out when you
13 left the camp to go somewhere else, were there any
14 people there in this room number 22?
15 A. Yes, there were. Yes, there were.
16 MS. McHENRY:
17 Q. And was it injured people who were kept in
18 building 22 or you don't know?
19 A. They were not injured. They were sick. What
20 they were sick from, I don't know. Natural diseases.
21 It was an infirmary for them. There were doctors
22 there. Two of their doctors were there and other
23 doctors from Konjic would come if there was any need.
24 Q. Now, besides Mr. Susic and the man who was
25 shot trying to escape, did any other prisoners die
1 during the time you worked in Celebici?
2 A. I don't know.
3 Q. Now, you talked some yesterday in direct
4 about the conditions in Celebici, and I assume, since
5 you testified about it, that you had the opportunity to
6 observe the conditions; is that correct?
7 A. Yes, that's correct.
8 Q. Now, you said the prison was not crowded. I
9 mean the barracks were not crowded. Do you know why
10 prisoners were kept in tunnel number 9?
11 A. So that they would not get into touch with
12 other prisoners before they were interrogated.
13 Q. Were prisoners kept in tunnel number 9 the
14 entire time you worked in Celebici?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. And how was it you learned that this is the
17 reason the prisoners were kept in tunnel number 9? Who
18 told you that?
19 A. The reason was because they were brought
20 there during the day and at night-time, and they were
21 put there so that they couldn't hide anything before
22 they were interrogated, before the commission would
23 have the results.
24 Q. My question, sir, is how do you know that?
25 Did someone tell you that or did you just make that
1 assumption yourself? And if someone told you, who was
2 it who told you?
3 A. Nobody told me.
4 Q. Now, please describe the conditions in the
5 tunnel, what the conditions were like for the
7 A. It was just like any other tunnel. Every
8 prisoner had his own blanket and they were allowed to
9 leave the tunnel. They had food, they had water, they
10 had an outside toilet just behind the facility.
11 Q. So, as far as you are concerned, the
12 conditions in tunnel number 9 were fine?
13 A. Considering the circumstances, yes.
14 Q. Now, prisoners were sometimes placed in
15 manholes, weren't they?
16 A. I don't know.
17 Q. Now, how often would the prisoners in both
18 tunnel number 9 and in the hangar, how often would they
19 be let outside to use the bathroom facilities, and how
20 long would they have when they were allowed to go
22 A. Whenever they wanted, there was a guard at
23 the door. It was important to knock, and then they
24 would go out.
25 Q. So it's your testimony that whenever a
1 prisoner wanted, all they had to do was knock on the
2 door and then they could go use the facilities; is that
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. And did they ever go out in groups also?
6 Were there regular times that they went out in groups?
7 A. If there was a need, yes. If there wasn't,
8 they didn't.
9 Q. Well, did you ever see prisoners running to
10 use the facilities?
11 A. I don't know. I didn't.
12 Q. Now, what if somebody was sick or injured and
13 couldn't go -- couldn't go out themselves to use the
14 bathroom, what were their facilities then?
15 A. They would be taken outside, carried outside.
16 Q. Okay. And did you see that happen?
17 A. No.
18 Q. Okay. Well, how do you know that that's what
19 happened, if you never saw it, sir? Did someone tell
20 you that's what happened?
21 A. That's what I heard.
22 Q. Okay. Now, you also talked about the water.
23 How did the prisoners get water?
24 A. Whenever they wanted, they could.
25 Q. So they would just knock on the door and any
1 of the 200 or 300 -- let me go back. How many
2 prisoners were there in Celebici, approximately, as
3 best you can estimate?
4 A. I don't know the exact number.
5 Q. Would you agree that it was around 300?
6 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter didn't hear
7 the response. Could the witness please repeat.
8 A. I never counted them.
9 Q. Well, however many there were, whenever the
10 prisoners wanted water, all they had to do is knock on
11 the door, say, "I want water," then they would be
12 allowed outside to get water? Is that your testimony?
13 A. Yes, it is.
14 Q. Inside the hangar, were the prisoners allowed
15 to get up and move around however they liked, or did
16 they have to stay seated?
17 A. Whatever they wanted to do.
18 Q. And were the doors to the hangar usually kept
19 open or closed?
20 A. Closed.
21 Q. Okay. And did you also, when you say the
22 prisoners were allowed to do whatever they wanted, is
23 that something you saw yourself or something you heard?
24 A. I came to visit and I would bring them food
25 from their families, and whenever I came some of them
1 would be standing, some of them would be sitting, just
2 like anybody else.
3 Q. And how many times would you estimate that
4 you yourself went into the hangar?
5 A. I don't know exactly.
6 Q. Did you ever go inside tunnel number 9?
7 A. Only to the entrance door.
8 Q. Now, let's talk about the food. First of
9 all, I assume that you sometimes ate meals outside the
10 prison, like at your girlfriend's; is that correct?
11 A. Yes, it is.
12 Q. Now, who was Sok?
13 A. A small -- a young Albanian who was in -- was
14 in the JNA and then he stayed in the village. He
15 joined us and he would sometimes make us coffee or
16 prepare our meals or lunches.
17 Q. He worked as a cook in the camp; is that
19 A. Yes, as an auxiliary cook.
20 Q. And did he cook just for the guards or did he
21 also cook for the prisoners?
22 A. The food was brought from the village -- from
23 the city, and he would just distribute it.
24 Q. When you said "he prepared our meals," you
25 meant that he distributed your meals? Is that your
2 A. Yes. He would distribute it to our dishes.
3 Q. And it's your testimony that he never
4 actually cooked; is that right?
5 A. Rarely. Very rarely.
6 Q. And on those rare occasions when he cooked
7 something, was that just for the guards or was that for
8 the prisoners?
9 A. I don't know. I ate his food rarely.
10 Q. How often was the food brought to the camp
11 for the prisoners?
12 A. Just like would happen for us.
13 Q. That wasn't my question. My question was how
14 often? Was it every day?
15 A. Every day. Every day.
16 Q. And was it once a day or more than once a
18 A. Sometimes it was once a day, both for us and
19 for them, but most of the times it was more than that.
20 Q. And most of the time. Then how many times
21 was it? Twice or more than twice?
22 A. Twice.
23 Q. Now, when the food was brought, did it come
24 in big containers or individual portions?
25 A. Big containers.
1 Q. And please just explain to us how the
2 prisoners would get their food, where they would eat
3 it, who would bring it to them. Did they eat at the
4 same time? Can you just give us an idea about that?
5 A. From every facility two or three inmates
6 would come, they would pour the food into smaller
7 containers, the same way it happened to us, and then
8 they would distribute the food in front of the
9 facilities where they were. They would hand out the
10 plates to the inmates, and then they would later
11 collect it and go back to their facility.
12 Q. And would the prisoners eat all at once or
13 would they eat in shifts?
14 A. In shifts, because there weren't -- there
15 wasn't enough -- there weren't enough plates.
16 Q. Okay. And, approximately, just how many
17 plates were there? I mean, are we talking about five
18 or one hundred?
19 A. Every facility had at least ten plates, and
20 then these ten were distributed each time.
21 Q. Okay. So if I understand you, ten prisoners
22 would eat at one time? Is that correct?
23 A. Yes, in front of one facility.
24 Q. And let's at least talk about the hangar.
25 And is it the case, then, that after ten prisoners
1 would eat, somebody would go all the way back to the
2 reception, the administration building and get more
3 food, or how did that work?
4 A. No. Everybody ate at the same time. Every
5 facility had about ten plates and that's how they ate.
6 Everybody simultaneously.
7 Q. Well, how did -- if you just accept for a
8 minute that there were, let's say, two hundred people
9 in the hangars, how would those two hundred people eat
10 from ten plates?
11 A. There weren't -- there never were two hundred
12 people in one hangar, as far as I know.
13 Q. But it's your testimony that however many
14 people there were in the hangar, all of them would eat
15 at the same time from the same ten containers?
16 A. Every facility had at least ten mess tins, at
17 least, and then they would take turns. They would be
18 washed and then food for the next ten prisoners would
19 be dished out.
20 Q. And would this happen immediately in front of
21 the hangar, or would the prisoners have to go back to
22 the administration building to get the additional food
23 to fill up the containers again?
24 A. Sometimes they would go again and, if there
25 was any food left, they would get it. Nothing was
2 Q. And would they walk back to the
3 administration building to get the extra food, or how
4 did that work?
5 A. Sometimes they would use the car, sometimes
6 they would walk.
7 Q. Okay. And about how long would this whole
8 procedure take? The food would come in, be
9 distributed, switch on and off. About how long would
10 this take for all the prisoners to be fed?
11 A. I don't know exactly.
12 Q. Would you say it was more than an hour?
13 A. I don't know exactly.
14 Q. Okay. Now, would Mr. Ustalic stay until all
15 the prisoners had finished eating?
16 A. Sometimes he would, sometimes he wouldn't.
17 It was important to take the food.
18 Q. Now, you stated yesterday that the prisoners
19 got the same portions as the guards. How do you know
20 that those prisoners got the same portions?
21 A. It is true because I ate the same food.
22 Q. My question wasn't whether or not you ate the
23 same food. My question was how much food, the
24 portions. How do you know that the prisoners got the
25 same portions as the guards?
1 A. I know sometimes I was there and I saw them.
2 Q. Okay. How often would you say you were
3 present and would watch the prisoners eating and could
4 see their portions, approximately?
5 A. On several occasions.
6 Q. Now, you talked yesterday about a prisoner
7 who was shot when he was trying to escape. Now, were
8 you present when that prisoner was shot or did someone
9 else tell you about it?
10 A. I was near this place, but I didn't see who
11 was shooting.
12 Q. Okay. Could you just -- I know you showed us
13 yesterday approximately where the prisoner was when he
14 got shot. Can you just please use the same model and
15 show us approximately where you were when the prisoner
16 got shot?
17 A. Right there.
18 Q. Okay. Just let the record reflect the
19 witness is pointing --
20 A. It happened there.
21 Q. The witness is pointing -- I'm sorry, I don't
22 see the number. The number of the little white house?
23 Building B.
24 A. In the grassy area across from building B.
25 Q. And what were you doing at the time that the
1 prisoner was shot? Please sit down, please.
2 A. Thank you. I happened to be outside.
3 Q. So you were just standing there watching; is
4 that correct?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. And approximately how long had you been
7 there, one minute, 15 minutes, before the prisoner was
8 actually shot?
9 A. I don't know. I don't know.
10 Q. Now, you said that this happened when a large
11 group of prisoners had been brought in after some
12 combat operations. Could it have been when the
13 prisoners were brought in after the operation in
15 A. They were brought, I think, from Gorodznic
16 (Phon), Biljelnik (Phon). I can't remember exactly.
17 Q. You stated there was a large number of them.
18 Were some of them lined up against the wall --
19 A. I don't know.
20 Q. Okay. Now, is it your testimony that when
21 you were there none of the prisoners were being beaten
22 immediately before the prisoner tried to escape; is
23 that correct?
24 A. I didn't see it.
25 Q. Okay. Did you hear any noises, sounds that
1 would have been consistent with the prisoners being
3 A. Never.
4 Q. Now, besides you, who else who worked in the
5 camp was present at the time this prisoner was shot?
6 A. Velija Mujo, and I think another Velija
8 Q. Do you remember if Mr. Delic was there?
9 A. I don't know.
10 Q. Now, did you have a weapon at that time?
11 A. No.
12 Q. Did you ever have a weapon when you worked in
14 A. Yes, but only when I used my car outside when
15 I went to fulfil some duty.
16 Q. Would the guards have weapons?
17 A. Yes, but not all.
18 Q. Okay. Now, you stated that the person was
19 warned, I believe, two times to stop. Did you hear
20 that yourself?
21 A. Yes, I did.
22 Q. Who issued the warning?
23 A. Probably the soldiers who were close to him,
24 but it was not the people from our facilities. It was
25 some people from Bosnia, from Foca, I don't know
1 exactly, maybe Miljevina.
2 Q. Now, you indicated that the prisoner was
3 being asked questions. Could you hear the questions
4 being asked?
5 A. Rarely.
6 Q. Now, I'm referring to the time that the
7 prisoner was shot. You stated that he was being asked
8 -- yesterday you stated that he was being asked
9 questions before he escaped. Did you hear the
11 A. No.
12 Q. Okay. Now, what happened after the
13 shooting? What happened to the body? Was there a
14 report? Please tell us what happened after the person
15 was killed?
16 A. I don't know. I didn't look at it, and I
17 didn't come close to it.
18 Q. And so it was a matter of no interest to you
19 whatsoever what happened to the body or anything about
20 the killing?
21 A. I don't know. I really do not know.
22 Q. Did you stand around for a few minutes
23 to watch what happened or you weren't interested or
24 just --
25 A. I went into the building immediately.
1 Q. Okay. And why did you go into the building?
2 A. What do I know? I don't know.
3 Q. Okay. Now, have you ever heard of Miroslav
4 Vujicic. Could he have been the person who was shot?
5 A. I don't know. I knew the people of different
6 ethnic backgrounds, not very well in Konjic.
7 Q. Now, you also talked about the murder of
8 Mr. Susic. Was there any investigation into the murder
9 of Mr. Susic?
10 A. I don't know anything about it.
11 Q. Now, were you ever given any instructions
12 about how to behave in the camp or even what you were
13 supposed to do if a prisoner tried to escape?
14 A. We always received orders from the superior
15 command that we shouldn't beat or murder or do any harm
16 to any prisoner, any prisoner, wherever we would go,
17 that was the first thing that we were told.
18 Q. And who from the superior command told you
20 A. I could have been told this by Rale Musinovic
21 and I don't know who he was told that by.
22 Q. Did you receive this instruction orally or in
24 A. For the most part orally.
25 Q. Did you ever see anything in writing about
1 the treatment of prisoners?
2 A. Maybe, maybe.
3 Q. Were you ever told anything about your
4 weapon, was your weapon to be kept with the safety on
5 or off?
6 JUDGE JAN: How is that relevant?
7 MS. McHENRY: I believe there has been some
8 testimony about that or that there's going to be with
9 respect to one of the witnesses who may be upcoming, so
10 that's why I am specifically asking that.
11 JUDGE JAN: How long does it take?
12 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, Your Honour.
13 JUDGE JAN: Microphone not on.
14 MS. McHENRY: If the witness doesn't know, I
15 certainly won't pursue it.
16 Q. Were you ever given any instructions about
17 how your weapon was to be kept with the safety on or
19 A. I always had it on.
20 Q. And were you ever given any instructions one
21 way or the other?
22 A. There was no need.
23 Q. Now, during the time you were at the camp,
24 are you aware of any guard ever being disciplined for
1 A. Maybe, I don't recall.
2 Q. Now, in addition to Mrs. Cecez and Mrs.
3 Antic, there were other women in the camp, weren't
5 A. Zilic (Phon) and another one or two, I don't
7 Q. Thank you. Now, you talked about where the
8 women were kept and you said the women could use the
9 bathroom freely. Did the women have to ask the guards'
10 permission to use the bathroom or could they use it
11 even without asking the guards' permission?
12 A. They had to ask permission from the guards.
13 Also because it was locked so that nobody could come to
15 Q. Now, when the weather was nice, the guards
16 sometimes were not in the actual reception area, but
17 spent time outside of that; is that correct?
18 A. The most part there was someone there.
19 Q. But sometimes, depending on the weather, the
20 guards would be outside, correct?
21 A. For the most part, they were there.
22 Q. Can I ask that the witness be shown again,
23 Defence Exhibit 27-3. That's the chart that we saw
24 yesterday. Can we have it on the ELMO, please.
25 Now, sir, you indicated yesterday that the
1 one door -- one door was permanently barricaded, the
2 door that led directly from where the women were kept
3 to the main hall; was that correct? And can you just
4 point this out again for the judges, show them the door
5 that was barricaded all the time.
6 A. Yes, even today.
7 Q. I'm sorry, can you just use the one to your
8 right, sir, just because it -- can you just show it on
9 that one. Okay, show the door that was always
10 barricaded. Okay. And so when the women wanted to go
11 to the bathroom or were brought outside to clean, they
12 would go through the guard room and then out through
13 the hallway into the bathroom, correct?
14 A. Correct. That's correct.
15 Q. Now, let me, the window in the guard room
16 that's closest to the main hall, can you point that out
17 for one second. I'm sorry, the one that's closest to
18 the main hall, the other window. I'm sorry, are there
19 three windows there that you see, sir?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Can you please point to the window that's
22 closest to the main hall. Yes, that window, sir. Now,
23 sir, you would agree with me that you could see Tunnel
24 No. 9 from that window, couldn't you? If you know.
25 A. A guard, yes.
1 JUDGE JAN: Just a minute before you go any
2 further. The women were kept in the room which is
3 marked as "Weapons."
4 MS. McHENRY: That's correct, Your Honour.
5 JUDGE JAN: We're more concerned with the
6 window in that room.
7 MS. McHENRY: I believe and I have just
8 reviewed the testimony --
9 JUDGE JAN: They would not be staying long in
10 the guard room on the way to the bathroom.
11 MS. McHENRY: Your Honour, I believe that the
12 testimony will reflect this, but I believe that the
13 women stated that they did sometimes look out of the
14 guard room, especially because the guards were
15 sometimes outside and they were permitted to --
16 JUDGE JAN: All of the guards or some of the
18 MS. McHENRY: That there was nobody in the
19 guard room on occasion.
20 JUDGE JAN: Well, ask him.
21 MS. McHENRY: I have asked him that. He said
23 JUDGE JAN: He said sometimes.
24 MS. McHENRY: Right.
25 JUDGE JAN: Maybe there are two guards, one
1 is left behind and the other went out. You haven't
2 clarified that position. Maybe they are taking turns.
3 MS. McHENRY:
4 Q. Sir, do you know whether or not there was
5 always one guard in the guard room or is it sometimes
6 the case that sometimes the guards would be outside?
7 JUDGE JAN: All the guards.
8 MS. McHENRY:
9 Q. All the guards?
10 A. Always one.
11 Q. And how do you know that, sir?
12 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Frankly, these are
13 matters of speculation. None of the guards is before
14 us, so I don't see why you are pressing.
15 MS. McHENRY: That's fine, I'll go forward.
16 Q. Sir, did you ever learn that some of the
17 women had been sexually assaulted while they were in
18 the camp?
19 A. No.
20 Q. You never heard any reports or stories that
21 there had been any sexual mistreatment at all; is that
23 A. Correct.
24 Q. Now, at the time you went with Mr. Delic as
25 his assistant to look for the Antic weapons, was Mr.
1 Delic on crutches at that time?
2 A. I don't recall.
3 Q. Certainly he was able to walk in -- at least
4 he was able to walk?
5 A. Yes, a little bit.
6 Q. Now, you talked about the report that you and
7 Mr. Delic signed regarding the weapons. Who typed this
9 A. I believe it was Delic.
10 Q. Okay. Now, sir, I know that it was your
11 first report and you may not have been familiar with
12 sort of techniques about how exactly to prepare a
13 report, but let me ask you, did you think that it was
14 important to be truthful in the report?
15 A. Yes, it was truthful except that we didn't
16 put in a name of the sister of the person who was
17 accused of having had the weapons.
18 Q. So, is it truthful that, and if you want to
19 see this document again, we can get it for you. Was it
20 truthful when you stated, "When we arrived at the spot,
21 Cedo showed us the places where he had been hiding the
23 A. Correct, correct.
24 Q. So it was Mr. Antic who showed you where the
25 rifles were, not Mrs. Antic? Is that correct?
1 A. His sister told us that also.
2 Q. So that they both showed you where the same
3 rifle was? Is that your testimony?
4 A. How do you mean the same?
5 Q. Well, in your report, you indicate that Mr.
6 Antic showed you the places where he had been hiding
7 the rifles and you now say that Mr. Antic did show you
8 both places and Mrs. Antic also showed you one place.
9 And so my question is, it's your testimony that both
10 Mrs. Antic and her brother, Cedo Antic, showed you the
11 spot, the same spot where the same rifle was buried; is
12 that correct?
13 A. The places were shown, first Cedo showed the
14 place where his rifle was and then she showed where her
15 rifle was.
16 Q. Well, if that's the case, sir, then would you
17 agree with me that the statement, "When we arrived at
18 the spot, Cedo showed us the places where he had been
19 hiding the rifles." That that's incorrect?
20 A. Yes, that is also correct, both things are
21 correct. What we did is just omit his sister because
22 we believed that it was not necessary to include it in
23 the report. But now I am saying that she was there too
24 because that's how it was.
25 Q. And you're saying that you had two different
1 people show you the same spot where the same rifle was
2 buried; is that correct?
3 MR. MORAN: Your Honour, I object, that's a
4 mischaracterisation of the evidence. He's been pretty
5 clear on that, there's two different rifles.
6 MS. McHENRY:
7 Q. Did Mr. Antic show you where only one rifle
8 was or did he show you where both rifles were?
9 A. We were told where both rifles were, but the
10 sister went to the cherry tree next to the fence to
11 show where that rifle was, the M-48 rifle.
12 Q. Well, let me just try to be very clear. I
13 have just a very simple question. When your report
14 states, "Cedo showed us the places where he had been
15 hiding the rifles." Is that correct or not correct?
16 A. Correct.
17 Q. And there were two rifles and Mr. Cedo showed
18 you were both of them were; is that correct?
19 A. Correct.
20 Q. Thank you. Now, you stated that you did not
21 believe it was important to mention Mrs. Antic. Why
22 did you at least think it was not important to mention
23 Mrs. Antic?
24 A. We were making that report for the first
25 time, so that's how I thought it should be done. I
1 don't know.
2 Q. Well, did you think maybe the rifle wasn't
3 hers and that's why it wasn't important to mention
4 her? Just why did you think it was important to
5 mention Mr. Antic and not Mrs. Antic?
6 A. We didn't know until she confessed. There
7 were other -- she had two rifles, we found one and Atia
8 (Phon) found another one. We found this one because
9 she told us where it was. And Atia (Phon) found the
10 other one.
11 Q. Was her report written before or after her
13 A. After she confessed, when we brought in the
15 Q. Now, sir, I assume that you have no idea why
16 another driver who worked at the camp would have stated
17 to this Chamber that the only persons who raped women
18 in the camp were Mr. Delic and yourself. I assume you
19 don't have any idea why someone might have stated
21 A. Incorrect.
22 Q. Let me speak for a moment about Mrs. Cecez's
23 interrogation. Now, you stated that you were told by
24 Mr. Rale Musinovic to interrogate Mrs. Cecez; is that
1 A. Correct.
2 Q. And you were supposed to interrogate her
3 about where her husband was; is that correct?
4 A. Correct.
5 Q. Were you supposed to interrogate her about
6 anything else?
7 A. In Donje Selo and the people there who had
8 the weapons, where did they hide them, who left, where
9 did they go to and so on.
10 Q. Did this interrogation take place soon after
11 Mrs. Cecez had been brought to the camp?
12 A. (No translation).
13 Q. Is it correct that Mrs. Cecez was first kept
14 in the administration building for several days and
15 then moved to the reception building?
16 A. That is incorrect.
17 Q. Please tell us where she was kept the entire
18 time then. Is your testimony that she was always kept
19 in the reception building? Is that correct?
20 MR. KUZMANOVIC: Your Honours, I think he
21 pointed to a room within that building and it should be
22 identified on the record.
23 THE WITNESS: While I was there. It was
24 there, because before that, two other women were
25 there. There was Najana (Phon) and another one.
1 MS. McHENRY:
2 Q. Okay. Now, was the military investigation
3 committee working in Celebici the -- well, in the
4 beginning when you first got to the camp or did they
5 come later?
6 A. Not right away. After the reception of the
7 prisoners and so forth.
8 Q. Well, was the commission -- were they working
9 in Celebici at the time that Mrs. Cecez was brought to
10 the camp?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Now, when you interrogated Mrs. Cecez, was it
13 during the day or during the night?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. I'm sorry, I didn't understand, was it during
16 the day or the night?
17 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: When was it?
18 THE WITNESS: Daytime.
19 MS. McHENRY:
20 Q. Okay. And where did the interrogation take
22 A. In a command building.
23 Q. Okay. And would you be able to, if I showed
24 you a diagram or a model, would you be able to remember
25 what room?
1 JUDGE JAN: You have a smaller model of the
2 administration block of the command building, maybe it
3 could be useful to have it before us. First ask him,
4 does it look like the command room?
5 MS. McHENRY: I will. I just want to go back
6 to my seat.
7 THE WITNESS: Yes.
8 MS. McHENRY:
9 Q. Sir, do you recognise that as a model of the
10 command building? The administration building, I'm
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Okay. Now, can you please tell us and I
14 think that they are marked on the inside, can you point
15 and tell us the number or the letter of the room where
16 you interrogated Mrs. Cecez?
17 A. I am not sure, but it was either this or
19 Q. Can you just look for me, sir, and are there
20 numbers or notations on the room numbers that you can
21 tell us which of the two rooms?
22 A. Twelve or eleven. I can't recall exactly.
23 Q. Thank you. Now, who else was present in
24 their room at any time during the interrogation?
25 A. Almir Mucic (sic), the policeman.
1 Q. Now, did you write a report after this
3 A. I had nothing to write because she didn't
4 confess to anything.
5 MR. KUZMANOVIC: Your Honours, in the
6 transcript again there's a notation of "Mr. Mucic" on
7 line 14, page 43, that wasn't the answer.
8 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: There should be some
9 care in these transcripts because there have been too
10 many errors.
11 MS. McHENRY:
12 Q. Is it Almir Muhic, sir, who was present
13 during the interrogation? I'm sorry, could you just
14 repeat the name again, there's just some issue in the
15 transcript. Who was the other person --
16 A. Almir Nuhic, Almir Nuhic, A-l-m-i-r
17 N-u-h-i-c, a policeman.
18 JUDGE JAN: I want to ask a question. Who
19 asked you to interrogate Mrs. Cecez?
20 THE WITNESS: My commanding officer, Rale
22 JUDGE JAN: There was already an
23 investigative military commission there who could
24 interrogate her? Why was this task specifically given
25 to you?
1 THE WITNESS: Rale Musinovic.
2 JUDGE JAN: This is not the question.
3 MS. McHENRY: I am going to ask that again.
4 JUDGE JAN: Please do.
5 MS. McHENRY: Sir, let me just ask a couple
6 of preliminary questions.
7 Q. You were aware that Mrs. Cecez was being kept
8 in the camp as a hostage because they wanted her
9 husband, weren't you?
10 A. Because of the husband and because of herself
11 because she was hiding it and she was behaving like
12 everyone else.
13 Q. I'm sorry, just please explain what you mean
14 when you say she was hiding it and she was behaving
15 like everyone else?
16 A. Because the night when we came to Donje Selo,
17 she and her husband did not come out, but she was with
18 them and she shot, she was firing like everyone else.
19 And she didn't -- and she wouldn't have needed to flee
20 from us. Why did she flee and hide?
21 Q. I'm sorry, sir, is it your testimony that
22 Mrs. Cecez was shooting during the attack on Donje
24 A. It is possible. I did not see it. It is
1 Q. And you would agree with me that there were
2 many, many women who fled when Donje Selo was being
4 A. Not many. There were women down there,
5 nobody did anything to those who stayed.
6 Q. You would agree with me that there were a
7 number of women besides Mrs. Cecez who fled from Donje
9 JUDGE JAN: But he didn't arrest her, how
10 would he know why she was arrested. The fact is that
11 she was arrested, but how would he know? That question
12 should be directed to the person who arrested her.
13 MS. McHENRY:
14 Q. Well, now you stated that you gave Mrs. Cecez
15 flowers, was this before or after Mrs. Antic came to
16 the camp?
17 A. Before and after.
18 Q. And did you bring Mrs. Antic flowers too or
19 just Mrs. Cecez?
20 A. Only Mrs. Cecez.
21 Q. Now, had you known Mrs. Cecez before you
22 started working in the camp?
23 A. Yes, she worked in a kiosk in front of the
24 department store, the kiosk selling newspapers and
25 similar things.
1 Q. So you knew each other from before and both
2 of you recognised each; is that correct?
3 A. A little bit, but we knew each other.
4 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: The Trial Chamber will
5 now rise and come back at noon.
6 --- Recess taken at 11.30 a.m.
7 --- On resuming at 12.05 p.m.
8 (The witness entered court)
9 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Kindly remind the
10 witness he is still under his oath.
11 THE WITNESS: Witness Djacic, may I remind
12 you that you are still under oath.
13 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: You may proceed,
14 Ms. McHenry.
15 MS. McHENRY: Thank you, Your Honours. I am
16 just about finished, but I want to advise you and the
17 witness that during the break Ms. Residovic informed me
18 with respect to one issue about the food. There were
19 some potentially important interpretation problems.
20 So I am going to go over some of those same questions
21 based on what Ms. Residovic and Mr. Kuzmanovic have
22 informed me. So I will be repeating some of my
23 questions, because, as I understand it, there may be an
24 issue that even affects the meaning of what it said.
25 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Thank you very much.
1 MS. McHENRY:
2 Q. Sir, let me just -- I've been asked. Can you
3 please move your chair forward a little bit so the
4 interpreters can hear your voice better. Can you move
5 your chair a little bit forward. Okay.
6 Now, sir, can you just once again explain,
7 when the food came for the prisoners, how was it
8 actually given to the prisoners? And I know I am
9 asking you to repeat some of what you said before.
10 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Perhaps you might --
11 A. Every facility had their own mess tins.
12 Zlatan Ustalic, when he would bring the food to
13 Celebici, the young man, Sok, would carry out the mess
14 tins and bring them to a gate where there were three to
15 four women. And the same people -- the people would
16 come from the facilities to take the food, and this
17 food would be taken to the facilities. And ten persons
18 from every facility, depending on how many there were,
19 would come out and eat.
20 The food would come twice a day. And warm
21 food would come twice a day and cooked food would come
22 twice a day, and dry food, uncooked food, would come
23 once a day.
24 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Actually, what I wanted
25 to find out was are you asking him how the food is
1 distributed when they arrive?
2 MS. McHENRY: Yes.
3 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: I think this fairly sums
4 it up.
5 MS. McHENRY:
6 Q. Well, sir, when Mr. Ustalic would bring the
7 food, what gate was it that the mess tins -- can you
8 just show us on the chart where it was that the food
9 would be brought and distributed to the three or four
10 people who would come to take the food.
11 A. The guards would carry the food at the gate,
12 since there were three to four women there. And they
13 would use a tray, just like at a hotel, and they would
14 carry whatever food there was.
15 Q. And did all this happen in the area around
16 the administration building?
17 A. The food was distributed close to the
18 administration building.
19 Q. And if I understand you, it would come in
20 large containers, and then there would be trays with
21 ten smaller containers that then would be brought to
22 the hangar; is that correct?
23 A. Every hangar had their own mess tins, and
24 people would come to get these mess tins and the bread,
25 and they would take them to the facility. There were
1 some stools in front of the facilities and the meal
2 would be completed there, and then everything would be
3 returned back to the main building.
4 Q. Well, my question is: After it was -- the
5 food was given -- the food comes and it's sort of
6 initially distributed around the administration
7 building, in that area. Is it the case, then, that
8 these very large mess tins would be brought to hangar
9 number 6, or is it the case that these ten smaller
10 containers would be brought to hangar 6?
11 A. Depending on how many people there were in
12 the hangar. There were -- more people were going if
13 there were more people in the hangar. More people
14 would go to get the food. Sometimes I helped to carry
15 the bread.
16 Q. And then when the food ran out, would the
17 prisoners have to go back to the administration
18 building to refill the containers with more food?
19 A. If there was any food, they could do that.
20 Q. Well, normally would -- would it normally, on
21 an average occasion, would the prisoners have to go
22 back to the administration building to get the
23 containers filled up again, or would it be sufficient
24 just to do it one time?
25 A. If there was a need, they would go back.
1 Q. Let me go forward, sir. Now --
2 MS. RESIDOVIC: Your Honours, since this
3 question was already asked and the witness more than
4 once used the word "mess tin," which is used to carry
5 the food, maybe I should suggest to my colleague to ask
6 the witness what this mess tin is, which was used to
7 carry the food to the facility. Since this again --
8 there is some unclarity around this term, and this is a
9 concrete term for some kind of a container.
10 MR. MORAN: Your Honour, I think the problem
11 is -- she is using the word manerca (Phon), which, as I
12 understand it, is a great big pot that you would have a
13 lot of food in, where a mess tin is something that an
14 individual soldier would eat out of. It would be a
15 much smaller thing. So what you have would be the
16 difference between a pot with food for a whole bunch of
17 people, that it would be dished out to individual
18 people in smaller containers. I think that's where the
19 confusion is coming from.
20 MS. McHENRY: Let me ask the witness,
22 Q. Sir, can you just, even with your hands,
23 approximate the size of the containers that the food
24 would come in when Mr. Ustalic brought it? What kind
25 of size are we talking about?
1 A. Fifty litres.
2 Q. And then when it was brought to the
3 prisoners, was it brought in those 50 litre containers,
4 or was it moved to those 10 smaller containers that
5 were then brought to the hangar?
6 A. Zlatan brought them in the larger containers.
7 Q. And when the food was actually brought from
8 the administration area to the hangar, was it brought
9 in those large 50 litre containers, or was it put in 10
10 smaller containers, and then the 10 smaller containers
11 were brought to the hangar?
12 A. No, not in the smaller ones. Just in the
13 larger ones.
14 Q. So the prisoners would go up to the
15 administration building and get one or more 50 litre
16 containers and then bring it back to the hangar?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. And when you refer to the 10 containers that
19 were available to the hangar, what are those
21 A. Those are plates or dishes or a little bit
22 larger. And we also used them to eat from them. It
23 stayed behind after the JNA on the compound.
24 Q. Thank you. I am moving forward.
25 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Let me clarify a bit.
1 From the witness's testimony, it appears only
2 representatives of each particular group of detainees
3 go up to receive the food. Am I right? Not everybody
4 goes up?
5 A. Yes, that's right. Depending on who was on
6 duty, and they would take turns. Today, one group of
7 prisoners; tomorrow, another group of prisoners would
8 do the same.
9 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Now, the important thing
10 is whether, when they take this food, they serve
11 everybody in their group. It means they serve everyone
12 in the group of each of the representatives?
13 A. Yes, that's correct.
14 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: So if it is not
15 sufficient for them the first time, perhaps they come
16 back a second time to serve the other ones who did not
17 have enough at the beginning?
18 A. Mostly they carried as much as was needed the
19 first time, because we knew, considering with respect
20 to the number of people there were in each facility,
21 how much was necessary.
22 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Thank you.
23 MS. McHENRY: Thank you.
24 Q. Now, sir, is the reason that you gave
25 Mrs. Cecez flowers because you felt bad about how you
1 treated her?
2 A. God forbid.
3 Q. Well, why did you give Mrs. Cecez flowers,
5 A. Because I spent more time there talking,
6 because she asked me to be there, and she talked about
7 all kinds of things about her daughter, how she was in
8 Vojvodina somewhere, things like that. So whatever was
9 nice, she talked to me about. She saw the flowers
10 through the window and she asked me if she could get
11 two or three roses, and I did that a couple of times,
12 and I brought those roses to her.
13 Q. Was there a bed in the room where you
14 interrogated Mrs. Cecez?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. You would agree with me that in the rooms
17 used by the military investigation commission there
18 were not beds, wouldn't you?
19 A. Where the commission worked, no.
20 Q. Now, Mrs. Cecez, was supposed to be raped as
21 part of her interrogation, wasn't she?
22 A. No.
23 Q. You've already testified that you were a
24 simple driver with no experience interrogating persons,
25 and that the investigating commission was made up of
1 professionals. Just explain to us, please, what is it
2 that you could do to Mrs. Cecez to make her give
3 information that the investigative commission would not
4 have been able to do better? Why were you chosen?
5 A. I was the closest to my commanding officer,
6 Rale Musinovic, and he told me, "Please, go outside and
7 investigate Grozdana Cecez, where she was, what she
8 did, why she did not surrender this weapon, where her
9 husband was," and so forth.
10 Q. Why didn't the military investigation
11 commission do this, sir, which was made up of
13 MR. MORAN: Your Honour, I am going to object
14 to that. That's speculation on the part of this
16 MS. McHENRY: If you know, sir.
17 A. I don't understand anything now.
18 Q. My question is, if you know, why was a
19 driver, with no experience interrogating people, chosen
20 to investigate Mrs. Cecez, rather than the military
21 investigation commission that was made up of
23 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: I think this is a
24 question for the persons who sent --
25 MS. McHENRY: Your Honour, I said if he
1 knows. If he doesn't know, he can state that.
2 A. At that point in time there was no
3 commission, when she arrived.
4 Q. I'm sorry, sir, right before the break you
5 stated on several occasions that the military
6 investigation commission was operating at the time
7 Mrs. Cecez was brought in. Are you now changing that
9 A. The commission wasn't there at the time.
10 Q. So you are saying that they were operating,
11 but they just didn't happen to be in the camp in the
12 daytime when you interrogated her; is that correct?
13 A. No.
14 Q. What is correct?
15 A. That I interrogated her.
16 Q. My question is: You've already stated that
17 the military investigation committee was operating at
18 the time Mrs. Cecez was brought in. You remember
19 saying that?
20 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Let's get the question
21 you were asking him. Now, you are not equipped to
22 interrogate people, you are not an interrogator, you
23 are not an investigator, and there were such people.
24 Why were you chosen to interrogate Mrs. Cecez? Why?
25 This is the question, if you know why you were chosen
1 as suitable. So if you don't know, you say so.
2 A. I don't know.
3 MS. McHENRY: No further questions. Thank
5 MR. MORAN: Your Honour, as you can imagine,
6 I have a little re-examination. May it please the
8 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Yes, you may proceed
9 Re-examined by Mr. Moran
10 Q. Sir, a few questions I would like to ask you
11 that were brought up during Ms. McHenry's
12 cross-examination. And I am going to do it, I think,
13 pretty much in the order in which she did it. The
14 first thing I want to talk to you about, sir, was
15 yesterday she used on several occasions the words
16 "police officer," with the emphasis on the word
17 "officer." Did the words "officer," was that
18 translated to you into Bosnian or did you mean -- or
19 was it translated to you something like policeman,
20 someone whose job it is to be a police person?
21 A. As a policeman.
22 Q. So when you say -- when Ms. McHenry asked you
23 if you were a police officer or if Mr. Delic was a
24 police officer, or if someone else was a police
25 officer, was your response that he was a policeman as
1 opposed to an officer or a leader or that type of
3 A. Yes, as a policeman.
4 Q. Okay. Secondly, sir, there's been some
5 discussion about who was in charge of what in the
6 Celebici barracks at the time you were there. Am I
7 correct, sir, that when your commander wanted you to do
8 something, he would tell you to do it, and that would
9 be the commander of the MUP?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. And that when the commander of the HVO wanted
12 an HVO member to do something, he would go -- he would
13 give that order to the member of the HVO?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. And that when the TO was there, if the TO
16 commander wanted a member of the TO to do something,
17 that he would issue that order to the soldier in the
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. And that -- am I correct that the commander
21 of the TO would not issue orders to a member of the
22 HVO, or the commander of the HVO would not issue an
23 order to a member of the MUP?
24 A. No.
25 Q. Am I correct in my assumption?
1 A. Yes. Yes.
2 Q. Okay. And, sir, when you were in --
3 stationed in Celebici in 1992, you were simply a
4 private soldier; is that correct? Just a soldier?
5 JUDGE JAN: Policeman.
6 A. Yes.
7 MR. MORAN:
8 Q. Well, lowest ranking -- you had the lowest
9 rank in the MUP?
10 A. Yes, the lowest rank. Yes.
11 Q. Is it the custom -- let me back off just a
12 second. Ms. McHenry kept asking you several times why
13 you were ordered to do things by your commander. Is it
14 the custom in the armed forces of Bosnia-Herzegovina
15 for a commander to explain why he is giving an order to
16 a private soldier, or does he simply just give the
18 A. He just gives the order.
19 Q. And he doesn't explain to you why he wants
20 you to do something?
21 A. He does explain.
22 Q. He does explain or he doesn't? He just gives
23 the order?
24 A. Yes, he gives the order.
25 Q. Sir, from your position as a driver, do you
1 know whether there was some meeting that occurred
2 between the commanders of the MUP and the HVO and the
3 TO to decide the overall way things in the camp were
4 going to run, or were you ever privy to any kind of
5 meetings like that?
6 JUDGE JAN: But you are saying that he is a
7 policeman. Would he come in these discussions?
8 MR. MORAN: Your Honour, I am asking whether
9 he was privy to the high level command discussions.
10 JUDGE JAN: How could an ordinary policeman
11 at the lowest level be privy in such policy decisions?
12 MR. MORAN: Your Honour, I would think he
13 would not be.
14 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: In fact, this should not
15 arise from cross-examination.
16 MR. MORAN: Yes, Your Honour. Let me
17 continue then.
18 Q. One of the things Ms. McHenry asked you about
19 was whether or not -- about weapons. She asked you a
20 couple of things about weapons. And the first thing
21 she asked you was whether you had a weapon while you
22 were assigned in Celebici, and, as I recall, your
23 answer was you only had a weapon when you left to go
24 drive someplace? Is that a correct way of recalling
1 A. Yes. Yes.
2 Q. Sir, when people were not required to have
3 weapons, were there -- were the weapons collected and
4 kept in some kind of an arms room or a storage area?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Okay. And then they would be given to you
7 again when you needed it?
8 A. Yes, when I went to carry out a duty.
9 Q. How about weapons training? Were people
10 given a lot of training in how to use a weapon and how
11 to be safe with a weapon when they were assigned in
13 A. Not much. Barely. We had no time.
14 Q. Sir, you are still a non-commissioned officer
15 in the Bosnian Army, in the Federation Army. Are
16 soldiers now given more training in the use and safety
17 of weapons?
18 A. Yes. Yes.
19 JUDGE JAN: Mr. Moran, he must have done
20 service in the JNA, in the compulsory service.
21 MR. MORAN:
22 Q. Did you do your compulsory service?
23 A. Yes.
24 JUDGE JAN: So why ask these questions?
25 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: What are you driving
2 MR. MORAN: Your Honour, what I am driving at
3 is there were people assigned to Celebici who had not
4 done their compulsory service. That was my next
6 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: The situation was that
7 anybody could have been to that place --
8 MR. MORAN: That's correct, Your Honour.
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. I want you to focus on a man named
11 Vico (Phon) Buric. Mr. Buric was another driver in the
12 camp; is that correct?
13 A. Yes, Buric.
14 Q. Did you ever hear Ms. Cecez accuse Mr. Buric
15 of raping her?
16 A. Never, because she would have told me. We
17 met frequently.
18 Q. Did you ever hear him brag about raping her?
19 A. Never.
20 MR. MORAN: Your Honours, if we could show
21 the witness the model -- the larger model of the guard
22 house. It's model A. Yes, that one. Just pop the top
23 off of it.
24 Q. Sir, you might have to stand so the judges
25 can see it and just point to the various rooms in
1 there, but I think this may make it a little easier to
2 visualise where everyone was.
3 JUDGE JAN: We have already got a description
4 of the guard room.
5 MR. MORAN: All right, Your Honour.
6 JUDGE JAN: You had it on the ELMO yesterday.
7 MR. MORAN: Yes, Your Honour. I just thought
8 it might be easier for the Trial Chamber if they
9 actually saw the model with the walls there and where
10 the doors -- can physically see the doors.
11 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Depends on what you want
12 to clarify from his testimony.
13 MR. MORAN: Your Honour, I just wanted to
14 clarify it in such a way so the Trial Chamber could see
15 it more easily. If the Trial Chamber feels it can
16 visualise where everything was sufficiently off a paper
17 plan as opposed to a three-dimensional model, that's
18 fine with me and I'll go onto something else.
19 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: It depends on what you
20 find still confusing from cross-examination, from his
21 answers, because I didn't see any confusion there.
22 MR. MORAN: Okay. The only confusion I would
23 see would be when the -- if the women were to look out
24 of the door between the room where they were held and
25 the guard room --
1 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: What did you see?
2 MR. MORAN:
3 Q. Yes. Could they see the entrance to tunnel
5 JUDGE JAN: From the guard room.
6 MR. MORAN:
7 Q. From the room where the guards were?
8 A. No.
9 Q. And when they were -- could they look out
10 through that door at all and see --
11 A. No.
12 Q. Okay. Now, if they were to go into the next
13 room over, which we have called the main hall, or into
14 the guard room itself, excuse me, could they look out
15 that side window in the guard room and see tunnel 9, or
16 was there a pillar that was in the way?
17 MS. McHENRY: This has been asked and
19 THE WITNESS: No, there was a guard there.
20 MS. McHENRY: This has been asked and
21 answered and Defence counsel is leading the witness.
22 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: There was no ambiguity
23 to his answers at that time.
24 MR. MORAN: Yes, Your Honour. Then one last
25 thing and you can sit down. One last thing to clear
2 Q. There was a man named Rale in the camp; is
3 that correct, R-a-l-e?
4 A. Yes.
5 JUDGE JAN: There's a lot of Rale's.
6 MR. MORAN: Yes, Your Honour. But there was
7 some confusion in the transcript yesterday between Rale
8 and Role. And he is R-o-l-e.
9 JUDGE JAN: It seems to be a very common
11 MR. MORAN: Yes, Your Honour, I think so. I
12 am just trying to just show that he's not Rale, that he
13 is R-o-l-e. That they're and two different people.
14 And there was some confusion yesterday in the
15 transcript over that. It was pointed out to me by,
16 again people who speak Bosnian.
17 Is it true that you're Role and Rale is
18 somebody else?
19 A. Yes.
20 MR. MORAN: Thank you, Your Honour. I have
21 no further questions, Your Honour.
22 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: I think this is the end
23 of your examination-in-chief.
24 MR. MORAN: It's just been pointed out to me
25 that the transcript, the current transcript we've just
1 had is backwards, where we have he's Rale, R-a-l-e and
2 that R-o-l-e is someone else when it's just the
3 opposite. So we're going to have -- that confusion is
4 still there.
5 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Well, thank you very
6 much for pointing it out. Thank you very much for your
7 assistance. This is the end of your examination,
8 you're discharged.
9 THE WITNESS: Thank you, Your Honours.
10 (The witness withdrew)
11 MR. MORAN: Your Honours, we will call Ms.
12 Klaric, custodian of records.
13 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Yes.
14 (The witness entered court)
15 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Swear the witness.
16 THE WITNESS: I solemnly declare that I will
17 speak the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the
19 JUDGE JAN: In my country, a witness who is
20 merely to produce documents is never sworn in.
21 MR. MORAN: Your Honour, that is all she has
22 to do. And, in my country, everybody is sworn in. So
23 it's just a difference in tradition, I believe. I
24 think --
25 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: What I understand, she's
1 not usually cross-examined, nothing, just turn in the
3 MR. MORAN: Yes, Your Honour, I think we will
4 need about 10 minutes to explain how these documents
5 are prepared and what they are. And then I have talked
6 to the Prosecution we can just --
7 JUDGE JAN: She's not merely to produce
8 documents then, she's rightly sworn in.
9 MR. MORAN: Yes, Your Honour, Thank you.
10 Ma'am, you can be seated.
11 THE WITNESS: AMIRA KLARIC
12 Cross-examined by Mr. Moran:
13 Q. Good afternoon, Ms. Klaric.
14 A. Good afternoon.
15 Q. So that the record is clear, will you please
16 state your full name for the record?
17 A. Amira Klaric, M-a-r-a (sic), K-l-a-r-i-c.
18 Q. And how are you employed, ma'am?
19 A. I am employed in the Konjic municipality as
20 registrar of marriages.
21 Q. Well, you maintain other things besides just
22 marriage records, do you not?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. You maintain what? Both birth and -- birth
25 records, marriage records, citizenship records and
1 death records?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. And let me chat with you for just a second
4 about -- physically about how these records are kept,
5 the original records. Are those records kept in large
6 volumes of books where there would be a certificate for
7 your birth certificate, for instance?
8 A. These are records and since there was
9 recently a war, we just keep them in separate
10 cupboards. We used to keep them differently, but now
11 in the war, this has been destroyed so this is the only
12 thing we have.
13 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Kindly let her tell the
14 Trial Chamber what she does, how she keeps the records,
15 the authenticity.
16 MR. MORAN:
17 Q. Yes, ma'am, you heard Judge Karibi-Whyte's
18 statement, can you tell him, please, how the records
19 are kept.
20 A. We keep all the records in our office in
21 books. We have registries of birth, of deaths, of
22 citizenship, and they're all kept in a single space,
23 single room.
24 Q. And, ma'am, if I wanted a birth certificate,
25 or if you wanted your birth certificate, a copy of it,
1 or your marriage certificate or your citizenship
2 certificate, how physically would that be prepared?
3 How would you get a birth certificate from your
5 A. Every person born in Konjic and registered in
6 our records can receive a copy on the basis of the
7 information dated that it provides us, which includes
8 the first name, last name, the father's name, date of
9 birth and place of birth.
10 Q. And, ma'am, when someone wants a birth
11 certificate, just as an example, would you make a
12 photographic copy of that birth certificate or is there
13 a form where you type in the information off the
14 original record, copy the information from the original
15 record and then stamp it to certify it that it is
17 A. There are particular forms for that.
18 Q. And did you prepare at Mr. Karabdic's
19 request, a large number of these forms for us and for
20 the Trial Chamber?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Your Honour, if we could show her -- let me
23 just pick one relatively at random, Rajko Draganic,
24 which would be D-37/3. And D-37-1/3 and D-37-2/3.
25 And, Your Honours, these are, I picked Mr. Draganic
1 relatively at random because it has a birth a marriage
2 and a citizenship certificate in that group.
3 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: As the proceedings
4 unfold, we will see exactly why these records are
6 MR. MORAN: Yes, Your Honour.
7 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: But I really don't
8 understand their relevance.
9 MR. MORAN: For the relevance of the records
10 it is this: Of course Article 4 of the Fourth Geneva
11 Convention talks about a person's nationality and the
12 Prosecutor has taken the position in various documents
13 and in various oral arguments that there is some
14 question about whether or not there is a legitimate
15 connection between some of the people who were detained
16 in the Celebici prison and the Republic of
17 Bosnia-Herzegovina to whether or not they were
18 citizens. And we're bringing you these documents to
19 show you that they were born there. Those that were
20 married, were married there. And that according to the
21 records of the Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina, they are
22 citizens of the Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina. And
23 that is the sole reason that these records are being
24 brought to the Trial Chamber, to remove any doubt that
25 these people had a connection to the Republic. That
1 they were citizens.
2 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: That's fine.
3 MR. MORAN:
4 Q. Ma'am, just picking Mr. Draganic, again at
5 random. If we could have the ELMO and just show it on
6 the ELMO. Or, we can distribute copies to the Trial
7 Chamber, whichever is easier.
8 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Have you provided the
9 Prosecution with all these?
10 MR. MORAN: Yes, Your Honour, they have been
11 provided with a copy of an identical volume to what you
12 have. In fact, theirs was pulled at random out of the
13 group. It's exactly what you have been provided with.
14 Q. Okay, ma'am, if you look over on your right
15 shoulder, you'll see one of these certificates. What
16 is that?
17 A. This document is a birth certificate for
18 Rajko Draganic.
19 Q. Judge, we're not getting it on the ELMO. For
20 some reason it's not showing up on the computer
21 monitors, apparently. There we go, there we go. It's
22 here now. And below it is there another certificate, a
23 marriage certificate? If you lift that one up, it may
24 be below it. And what is that document, ma'am?
25 A. This is -- this a marriage certificate for
1 Mr. Rajko Draganic and his wife, Kalim Delava (Phon).
2 Q. And below that there's another document and
3 can you tell the Trial Chamber what that document is?
4 A. This certificate of citizenship for Rajko
6 Q. And, ma'am, let's talk about the citizenship
7 certificates for just a second. If a person gives up
8 his citizenship in the Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina,
9 can he get one of these citizenship certificates?
10 A. No.
11 Q. And how does one go about giving up his
12 citizenship in the Republic?
13 A. The person who renounces the citizenship of
14 Bosnia-Herzegovina through the Ministry of Justice will
15 file a request to be struck from the citizenship
16 registry and we receive an official certificate from or
17 decision from the ministry, whereby in the records of
18 citizenship and birth, this person's name be struck.
19 Q. And do you physically make any entries on
20 your records at the Municipality of Konjic to show
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. What do you do?
24 A. We make an entry into the citizenship record
25 that pursuant to decision of the ministry, number and
1 date are then enclosed or entered. The person has been
2 struck from the record of citizenship of the Republic
3 of Bosnia-Herzegovina and it is stated that it had
4 accepted citizenship of another country.
5 Q. And, ma'am, after that is done, can a person
6 get one of these citizenship certificates like we have
7 on the screen right now?
8 A. No, they cannot, no.
9 Q. Now, ma'am, all of these, this large number
10 of records that we have here, all of those were
11 prepared either by you or at your direction; is that
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. And they were prepared based on information
15 in the original records that are the official records
16 of the Konjic municipality?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. And, ma'am, are you familiar with these
19 records as a group, these ones that we have here?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. And do they all show that the person whose
22 name is attached to a certificate was a citizen of the
23 Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina in May, June, July,
24 August of 1992?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. Your Honour, I would move to admit, and
2 there's a large number and I'll just go from the top of
3 these, the group. It's D-29/3 through D-101/3. And
4 then in each of those has some subparts. And I would
5 move to introduce both of them. They follow all of the
6 documents. So, for instance, on D-29/3, there's a
7 D-29-1/3. I move to introduce that one. And just the
8 entire list. And the list of documents I am
9 introducing is in the record as D-28/3.
10 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Is there any objections
11 to it?
12 MS. McHENRY: No, Your Honour, we told Mr.
13 Moran before we would not be objecting and that he did
14 not have to go through them document by document
16 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Yes, we'll accept the
17 list as representing the contents of --
18 MR. MORAN: Your Honour, so that the record
19 is clear then, I also move to introduce D-28/3, which
20 is the list.
21 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: It should have been
22 better to introduce it by the list and then accept the
23 documents as a whole. It's admitted.
24 MR. MORAN: Yes, Your Honour, at this point,
25 I pass the witness.
1 JUDGE JAN: I am not clear about one thing.
2 --- (Kindly be advised microphone is not
4 JUDGE JAN: Marriages that would have been
5 prior to 1992 when Bosnia's agreement did not exist as
6 an independent state.
7 MR. MORAN: Yes, Your Honour.
8 JUDGE JAN: They've both been shown here as
9 citizens of the Republic.
10 MR. MORAN: Yes, Your Honour. The reason
11 that I am introducing them this way is that the
12 Prosecutor is cited in a couple of documents, the
13 Notabalm (Phon) case from the ICJ, which talks about
14 connections for purposes of nationality. There has to
15 be reasonable connections. And I don't want --
16 JUDGE JAN: Obviously, obviously when these
17 certificates were prepared, the persons to whom these
18 certificates relate had not declared themselves to be
19 citizens of that state. It's only through legal
20 interpretation whether we have to decide whether they
21 are to be treated as citizens or not. The certificates
22 show that they're citizens of the state, but they
23 relate to events which took place much before the
24 independent state of Bosnia-Herzegovina came into
1 MR. MORAN: Yes, Your Honour. Well, it's
2 done for two reasons. One is based on the Notabalm
3 (Phon) case, which says there are no significant
4 contacts between Mr. Notabalm and Liechtenstein (Phon)
5 and so he is not to be treated as a --
6 JUDGE JAN: I just wanted to point this out.
7 MR. MORAN: Yes, your honour. And these were
8 introduced to show that they were born there, they were
9 married there.
10 JUDGE JAN: These events took place prior to
11 1992, the marriages.
12 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Well, you will now be
13 following the succession rule.
14 MR. MORAN: Yes, Your Honour. And the
15 citizenship certificates were introduced to show that
16 as far as the government of Bosnia-Herzegovina is
17 concerned, these people right to this day --
18 JUDGE JAN: That's right.
19 MR. MORAN: Thank you very much, Your
21 Cross-examined by Ms. Residovic:
22 Q. Your Honours, I have several questions of
23 this witness. Good afternoon, Mrs. Klaric.
24 A. Good afternoon.
25 Q. I am Edina Residovic and I am Defence counsel
1 for Mr. Zejnil Delalic. Is it true, Ms. Klaric, that
2 we briefly saw each other in The Hague?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Is it also true, Ms. Klaric, that up until
5 that time we had never met?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Is it true, Ms. Klaric, that last year in
8 October at the request of mine, as in my professional
9 capacity, you issued several citizenship certificates?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Ms. Klaric, in order to clarify this point
12 for the Trial Chamber, could you agree with me if I
13 said that the citizenship records, as well as other
14 records which you are in charge of, are public records
15 and available to all citizenship who have any legal
16 interest in them?
17 A. Yes, they are available to all citizens.
18 Q. Ms. Klaric, is it usual practice in our
19 country that attorneys, when pursuing the interest of
20 their clients, that the attorneys also refer to the
21 record keepers in order to obtain certain documents?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Ms. Klaric, is it also usual practice that
24 you issue such, the documents for a certain
25 administrative fee?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. May the witness now please be shown five
3 documents. They are marked in the Exhibit D-136,
4 D-37/1, D-37/2, /3 and /4, which is part of the expert
5 witness report that is the history, five pages, 537,
6 539, 541 and 543 and 545.
7 JUDGE JAN: What are these documents?
8 MS. RESIDOVIC: Their citizenship
9 certificates of certain witnesses called by the
10 Prosecution in these proceedings and the expert witness
11 for history included them in his submission at the
12 request of the Defence.
13 JUDGE JAN: (Microphone not on).
14 MS. RESIDOVIC: I will. When the witness
15 reviews this document, I will ask her about him. I
16 believe that they were because we received these
17 documents from our colleague today. And I was not able
18 to review them up until now. I have these documents in
19 front of me. She may just be able to review them very
20 quickly and answer the question that you just posed
21 right away. Maybe it would be the best if the witness
22 just quickly reviewed the documents. Or, in order to
23 spare your searching for them, may I just ask the
25 Q. Ms. Klaric, in the documents which you have
1 just authenticated as having compiled yourself, is
2 there also a certificate of Svetozara Gligorevic, born
3 1915, Bradina, is it included there?
4 A. Yes.
5 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: It's there, Gligorevic,
6 Svetozara --
7 MS. RESIDOVIC:
8 Q. Simply asked, Ms. Klaric, all five documents
9 which you issued at the request of the attorney, Edina
10 Residovic, are also included among the documents which
11 you have just testified about when asked by my
12 colleague, Mr. Tom Moran?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Thank you. There will be no need to ask you
15 individually about each one of these documents.
16 Ms. Klaric, is it true that you, as one of
17 the officials of the Konjic Municipality, know that the
18 Defence of Mr. Zejnil Delalic asked you to help prepare
19 another official document of the municipality?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Ms. Klaric, did you receive an order from
22 your -- the chief to confirm whether this document
23 existed in the files at the municipality?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Ms. Klaric, did you confirm that the Konjic
1 Municipality on the 2nd of July, 1996, at the request
2 of the attorney, Edina Residovic, issued a certificate
3 on the -- confirming that Zejnil Delalic was never
4 elected or appointed to any official duty in any of the
5 municipal bodies?
6 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: I think we have to break
7 now and come back at 2.30.
8 JUDGE JAN: Is the statement of Ms. Residovic
9 sufficient on that basis for that purpose? How would
10 she know?
11 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Take a break here.
12 JUDGE JAN: Your election to anybody and
13 their birth certificate or marriage certificate or
14 death certificate or anywhere else, how would she
1 --- Luncheon recess taken at 1.02 p.m.
2 --- On resuming at 2.35 p.m.
3 (The witness entered court)
4 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Kindly remind the
5 witness she is still under oath.
6 THE REGISTRAR: I remind you, madam, you are
7 still under oath.
8 A. Yes, I know. Thank you.
9 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Proceed, Ms. Residovic.
10 MS. RESIDOVIC: Thank you very much, Your
12 Q. Ms. Klaric, before the recess The Honourable
13 Tribunal has warned us about an issue that I would like
14 to discuss with you. Namely, I have two documents that
15 I would like to show you, but before that we must
16 determine whether you are the person that can do that.
17 And, therefore, I would like to ask you, Ms. Klaric, is
18 your department of the registry within the municipality
19 also responsible for housing and urban development?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Does, within your department -- is there also
22 within your department an archive of documents which is
23 issued by the secretariat?
24 A. Yes, there is an archive within the same
1 Q. Are you, Ms. Klaric, also authorised to look
2 into and command -- and look into and work in this
3 archive with -- under the authority given to you by
4 your boss?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Is it true, Ms. Klaric, that today you gave
7 to me a certificate that -- whose original you have
8 with you, which was signed by the secretary, Nermin
9 Niksic, by which you are authorised to confirm
10 documents which were issued by your municipality and
11 can be found in this archive within your secretariat?
12 A. Yes, I gave this authorisation to you, which
13 was given to me by my secretary, Nermin Niksic.
14 Q. And another question, Ms. Klaric, with regard
15 to the request by the Defence of Mr. Delalic to confirm
16 the authenticity of a document, look into the archive
17 previously before you came to this court.
18 A. Yes, I did look into the archive with respect
19 to this document.
20 Q. I would like now to show to this document --
21 to show to this witness the document 145, annex 1/ --
22 annex 5/1. This is on page 975 in Volume 3 of the
23 expert witness. So that others could follow, I also
24 have a copy for the Tribunal and the Prosecution both
25 in the Bosnian and in the English languages.
1 If you could please, Ms. Klaric, look at this
2 document. Could you please tell us if this is the
3 document that you personally saw in the archives of
4 your secretariat in the Municipality of Konjic?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Now, I would like to have another document
7 shown to this witness, and I would like to determine
8 which document this is, and with this I will finish the
9 cross-examination of this witness. I have enough
10 copies of this document, both for the Trial Chamber and
11 for the Prosecution and for the witness.
12 THE REGISTRAR: Defence document D100-88/1.
13 MS. RESIDOVIC: Your Honours, this document a
14 certain time ago was given to the Defence of
15 Mr. Delalic, without the Defence asking for it, by the
16 assembly of the municipality, and therefore we ask for
17 the authentication of this document.
18 And therefore I ask this question, please,
19 Ms. Klaric, this document that you have in front of you
20 right now, is this document also from the archives of
21 the Municipality of Konjic in your secretariat, and did
22 you personally -- did you personally see that this
23 document exists?
24 A. This document, just like the previous
25 document, which was issued by the Assembly of the
1 Municipality of Konjic, exists and can be found in our
3 MS. RESIDOVIC: Considering the authenticity
4 and the relevance of this document, Your Honours, I
5 suggest that these documents are moved as evidence of
6 the Defence.
7 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Any observation by the
9 MS. McHENRY: Well, there is no objection.
10 MS. RESIDOVIC: Thank you very much, Your
12 I have finished with the examination of this
13 witness. Thank you very much.
14 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: The document is
15 admitted. Any other examination?
16 MR. KUZMANOVIC: Your Honour, Defence of
17 Mr. Mucic has no questions. Thank you.
18 MS. McMURREY: Your Honour, Defence of
19 Mr. Landzo has no questions either. Thank you.
20 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Yes, you may proceed,
21 Ms. McHenry
22 Cross-examined by Ms. McHenry
23 Q. Good afternoon, ma'am, my name is Teresa
24 McHenry, and I just have a short number of questions
25 for you. Now, ma'am, with respect to these documents
1 that were just admitted, you are aware, aren't you,
2 that the second document was issued to clarify the
3 first document indicating that Mr. Delalic was not
4 elected to the Konjic Municipal Assembly? Are you
5 aware of that?
6 A. Yes, I am.
7 Q. Thank you. Now, ma'am, what was your job in
9 A. I worked as a registrar.
10 Q. Okay. And I assume that you are not a
12 A. No.
13 Q. And I assume that you don't know about the
14 various changes in the citizenship law of
15 Bosnia-Herzegovina since 1992, and you don't know about
16 the provisions for rights of option in that law? Is
17 that correct, that you don't know anything about those
18 things, because if so, I won't ask you any more
19 questions about that.
20 JUDGE JAN: That's the bait?
21 MS. McHENRY: Just by way of explanation.
22 Q. Ma'am, do you know anything about the changes
23 in citizenship law in 1992?
24 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: I'm not sure this
25 witness is claiming any knowledge of such things. It's
1 only to cover registration.
2 MS. McHENRY: Your Honour, I don't -- I am
3 not trying to bait her. I assume that she doesn't know
4 either, in which case she will say that and I won't ask
5 any more questions. I just wanted to clarify that.
6 JUDGE JAN: Don't take the bait seriously.
7 A. No.
8 MS. McHENRY:
9 Q. Now, before the war in the independence of
10 Bosnia-Herzegovina, persons were considered Yugoslav
11 citizens and they had Yugoslav passports, rather than
12 Bosnian passports, correct?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Now, going back to 1992. Were you aware that
15 there were Serbs in Konjic who wanted to remain
16 citizens of Yugoslavia and who did not want to be part
17 of an independent Bosnia-Herzegovina?
18 MR. MORAN: Your Honour, I object. This is
19 pretty irrelevant.
20 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: She is not making any
21 claims as to having any authority or knowledge about
22 citizenship. These are persons registered as such.
23 That's all she claims to know.
24 MS. McHENRY: Yes, Your Honour, but I am
25 allowed to ask her if she knows about a few other
1 things. If she doesn't know anything, I won't press
2 the matter.
3 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: What is the point, when
4 there is no such claim? She's not even being put
5 forward for that.
6 MS. McHENRY: But I may want to put her
7 forward for this, if she answers.
8 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: You shouldn't put her
9 forward for things she is not making any claims of --
10 MS. McHENRY: Your Honour, if she says she
11 has no information, I won't ask any more questions.
12 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: The information is all
13 that is contained in the registration. That's all she
14 did. And these are persons who registered them.
15 That's all. Not whether they are validly registered or
16 they could registered. It has nothing to do with that.
17 MS. McHENRY:
18 Q. Ma'am, you would agree with me that when the
19 war started in April of 1992, the Ministry of Justice
20 and the judicial authorities were not functioning in
21 Konjic, were they?
22 A. Could you please repeat your question?
23 MR. MORAN: I am going to object to that
24 because there is no Ministry of Justice in Konjic, as
25 far as I know. That would be a national ministry, not
1 a municipality ministry.
2 MS. McHENRY:
3 Q. Ma'am, would you agree with me that when the
4 war started in April of 1992, the judicial authorities
5 and the branches of the Ministry of Justice in Konjic
6 were not functioning, were they?
7 A. Well, not the first day, because the building
8 of the trial court was shelled.
9 Q. Now, ma'am, are you aware that for a large
10 number of persons for whom you've issued certificates,
11 that those persons have left for other countries and,
12 in fact, are now citizens of other countries?
13 MR. MORAN: Objection, Your Honour. That
14 assumes facts not in evidence. And if Ms. McHenry
15 would like to testify about that, I would ask that she
16 be sworn and I have a right to cross her.
17 JUDGE JAN: She doesn't know this person
18 personally. How does she know?
19 MS. McHENRY:
20 Q. Ma'am, how long have you lived in Konjic?
21 A. Since I was born.
22 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: (Microphone not on) If a
23 witness is submitted just for producing documents, you
24 don't ask questions about this.
25 JUDGE JAN: She's done that on the basis of
1 the record available, not on the basis of her personal
3 MS. McHENRY: Well, I am allowed to ask her
4 questions about --
5 JUDGE JAN: You are certainly allowed to ask
6 her, does she know this person, and all she can say is
7 whether they are still there or whether they have gone
8 to some other place.
9 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: (Microphone not on)
10 It should be related to the witnesses called. Don't
11 just ask questions merely because a witness is before
12 the Trial Chamber. It would not be related to what she
13 has come here to say.
14 MS. McHENRY: I am trying to explore whether
15 or not she believes her records are accurate, and I
16 believe that I am allowed --
17 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Then go straight to
19 MS. McHENRY: Okay.
20 Q. Well, ma'am, do you know any persons for whom
21 you've issued certificates? Do you know any of the
23 JUDGE JAN: Personally.
24 A. No.
25 MS. McHENRY:
1 Q. Okay. Now, ma'am, were any of the records of
2 the municipality destroyed in the war?
3 A. No.
4 Q. Okay. And how about the War Presidency
5 records, where are they?
6 A. I don't know that.
7 Q. But if other officials from the Konjic
8 municipality have reported that records were destroyed,
9 that would be contrary to your understanding, correct?
10 JUDGE JAN: She is talking only about her own
11 records. She is not talking about the records of the
12 War Presidency or the TO or any other organisation
14 MS. McHENRY:
15 Q. Were you part of the secretariat, ma'am?
16 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter did not
17 hear the response. Could the witness please repeat the
19 Q. Could you just repeat your answer, ma'am.
20 Maybe, could you move your chair forward so maybe you
21 are speaking closer to the microphone.
22 Okay. You are part of the secretariat; is
23 that right, ma'am?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. And what kind of records does the secretariat
1 keep, in addition to birth, death and marriage
3 A. The secretariat keeps the complete archive
4 and it has authority over it.
5 Q. And when you say the complete archives, do
6 you mean the complete archives for the Municipality of
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. And would the secretariat have responsibility
10 for keeping records of the War Presidency that existed
11 in 1992?
12 A. There was war at the time and many things
13 have been changed.
14 Q. I'm sorry, ma'am, I didn't understand that.
15 Are you saying that some records have been destroyed
16 because there was war?
17 A. No, that is not correct.
18 Q. Well, do you know whether or not the
19 secretariat, as keeper of the records for the
20 municipality, would have custody of the records of the
21 War Presidency?
22 A. I don't know that.
23 Q. Okay.
24 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Don't you keep records
25 of the War Presidency, whatever the proceedings, what
1 has happened during the war and after it? Do you keep
2 records of that?
3 A. Well, I guess they might be in the archives,
4 but I didn't have a look.
5 MS. McHENRY:
6 Q. Okay. Are you aware of whether or not anyone
7 on behalf of the International Tribunal, including the
8 Office of the Prosecution or the Office of the Defence,
9 has asked for records from the War Presidency?
10 A. I don't know.
11 MS. McHENRY: Thank you. May I ask that the
12 witness be shown Prosecution Exhibit 186.
13 JUDGE JAN: What is that document?
14 MS. McHENRY: It is a death certificate
15 signed by this witness.
16 Q. Ma'am, is it correct that this is a death
17 certificate for Simo Jovanovic signed by you?
18 A. Yes, that's correct.
19 MS. McHENRY: And I would ask the Prosecution
20 Exhibit 186 be admitted into evidence.
21 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Wasn't it an exhibit at
23 MS. McMURREY: I am going to object to the
24 admission of this document into evidence. If I
25 remember correctly, and I have seen it, it was created
1 some two or three years after the alleged death of
2 Mr. Jovanovic. So I don't believe that this could
3 certify one way or the other if it states a cause of
4 death or whatever, because it was proposed by --
5 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Thank you, very much.
6 Yes. She says it was signed by her and it's
8 MS. McHENRY: It's admissible for the proof
9 of his death or for the contents of what it contains?
10 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Well, you can argue that
11 later. Thank you.
12 MS. McHENRY:
13 Q. And, ma'am, you are aware that this death
14 certificate was issued after a judicial inquiry into --
15 initiated by his family to establish Mr. Jovanovic's
16 death; is that correct?
17 A. That's correct.
18 Q. And this was necessary because no death
19 certificates were issued at the time for any of the
20 persons who died in Celebici; is that correct?
21 A. At that time for many persons in our
22 municipality no death certificates were issued.
23 Q. Now, ma'am, are you also aware that in 1997 a
24 member of the secretariat, and I believe your staff,
25 issued an official document with false information?
1 A. No, I don't know.
2 Q. And so you are not -- you are not aware that
3 on the 13th of January, 1997, the register, an
4 administrator for your department, Public Housing
5 Affairs and General Management of the Municipality of
6 Konjic, issued a certificate which had incorrect
8 MR. MORAN: Objection, Your Honour. It
9 assumes facts not in evidence. If Mrs. McHenry wishes
10 to testify about that, I ask that she be sworn and
11 subject to cross.
12 JUDGE JAN: She says she doesn't know.
13 That's what she's said. She's answered that question.
14 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: The Prosecution was
15 merely trying to find out what she knows. She is not
16 leading evidence.
17 MS. McHENRY: May I ask that the witness just
18 be shown -- hold on. Yes, may I ask that the witness
19 be shown this document. And I am not going to have it
20 introduced. I just want to know -- I certainly would
21 like it marked.
22 JUDGE JAN: What is this document?
23 MS. McHENRY: It's a document, a certified
24 document from the -- her department about a particular
25 death and certain records that were kept. But I am not
1 putting it forward for the truth of the matter
2 asserted, because the Prosecution, I believe, the
3 municipality have agreed it's not accurate.
4 THE REGISTRAR: Prosecution document 254.
5 MS. McHENRY:
6 Q. Ma'am, do you recognise whose signature that
8 A. Yes, I do.
9 Q. And whose signature is that?
10 A. It is a signature of the clerk who works on
12 Q. What is that person's name?
13 A. Idriz Rosic.
14 Q. Is he a member of the same secretariat that
15 you worked for?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Okay. Now, that document has reference to
18 certain records. Are you aware that those records do
19 not and have never existed? I'm sorry, did you hear
20 me, ma'am?
21 A. There is no translation into Bosnian.
22 Q. Can you hear me now?
23 A. I don't know what document this is about.
24 Q. Okay. Well, the document refers to certain
25 records. Can you look at the document and maybe -- may
1 I ask that the English be put on -- no, that's all
2 right. Hold on.
3 Ma'am, that document refers to certain
4 records about persons killed; is that correct?
5 MR. MORAN: Your Honour, could we see a copy
6 and maybe the Trial Chamber would like to see copies of
7 this one too.
8 MS. McHENRY: May I ask that the English be
9 put on the ELMO, maybe with the usher's assistance.
10 MS. RESIDOVIC: We would also like to see the
11 Bosnian version, if we may.
12 MS. McHENRY: I don't know if both can be put
13 on the ELMO.
14 Q. Ma'am, this authentication made, do you see
15 that it refers to the death of a particular person and
16 refers to records on the killed members of the
17 aggressors armies and marked burial places?
18 A. I don't know.
19 Q. And so you couldn't tell me whether or not
20 such records -- could you agree with me that such
21 records do not exist in the Municipality of Konjic?
22 A. I cannot agree with you.
23 MS. McHENRY: Okay, no further questions.
24 Thank you.
25 MR. MORAN: Your Honour, I have about a half
1 a dozen questions on re-examination. With the Court's
2 permission --
3 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: How do a dozen questions
5 MR. MORAN: About a half a dozen, Your
7 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Yes, how do they come
8 from? They must arise from cross-examination.
9 MR. MORAN: Yes, Your Honour, they're
10 directly related to cross-examination.
11 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Let's know how they
12 came about.
13 MR. MORAN:
14 Q. Ma'am, Ms. McHenry asked you during her
15 cross-examination about Yugoslav citizenship prior to
16 1992; do you remember that question?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Prior to 1992, people were also citizens of
19 one of the constituent republics of the Socialist
20 Federal Republic of Yugoslavia, weren't they?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. And would also be a citizen of the Republic
23 of Bosnia-Herzegovina or the Republic of Croatia or
24 Serbia or whichever?
25 A. Yes, in addition to the Yugoslav, there was a
1 Republican citizenship too.
2 Q. And you had to have both of them to be a
3 citizen of Yugoslavia? Let me rephrase that a little
4 better. You had to be a citizen of republic to be a
5 citizen of Yugoslavia?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. And you had to be a citizen of Yugoslavia to
8 be a citizen of a republic. Also, ma'am --
9 JUDGE JAN: Just a minute, when you talk
10 about citizen of a republic, are you talking about
11 really citizenship or residence? Inhabitants?
12 MR. MORAN: Well, Your Honour, actually the
13 Bosnian law says "citizenship". And I know from my own
14 personal experience that there is a citizenship in a
15 state. And all of that is related to residency. It's
16 not necessarily where you live.
17 MS. McHENRY: Well, Your Honour, I
18 specifically, since she didn't -- she wasn't a lawyer,
19 I didn't ask her about the definition of citizenship
20 and I think Mr. Moran would agree that the citizenship
21 of republic is not citizenship as it is normally used
22 in international law.
23 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: There are no answers to
24 any of those questions which would attack her
25 credibility whatsoever. I don't see why you are
1 pushing --
2 MR. MORAN: Your Honour, I am going on to
3 another subject now.
4 Q. Do you remember when Ms. McHenry asked you
5 about records being destroyed during the war?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. The only records you're responsible for are
8 birth, death, marriage, citizenship records; is that
10 A. Only those records.
11 Q. And none of those records were destroyed?
12 A. No, they were not.
13 Q. And if I wanted to know about records from
14 the war presidency, I would go to somebody else?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Ma'am, on Prosecution Exhibit 186, which is a
17 death certificate on Simo Aignovic, did I understand
18 you correctly that that death certificate was issued
19 following a judicial inquiry into his death?
20 A. I don't know when the inquiry took place.
21 Q. But there was a judicial inquiry, if you
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Does it show what his citizenship is on that
1 MS. McMURREY: I'm sorry, Your Honours, the
2 record reflects, "Simo Aignovic" and it's Simo
3 Jovanovic who was the person in the indictment.
4 MR. MORAN:
5 Q. Ma'am, does it show what his citizenship was
6 on that certificate?
7 THE INTERPRETER: May the witness please
8 repeat the answer?
9 MR. MORAN: We have the same mistake again on
10 Mr. Jovanovic's name. Just for the record, it's
12 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: The interpreters want
13 you to repeat that question.
14 MR. MORAN:
15 Q. The question was, does that death
16 certificate, Prosecution Exhibit 186, show a
17 citizenship of Mr. Jovanovic not Aignovic?
18 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Show her the
20 MR. MORAN: Could she be shown that
21 certificate again? Prosecution 186.
22 THE WITNESS: Yes, from this certificate of
23 death, it can be seen that there is a citizenship and
24 it is the citizenship of Republic of
1 MR. MORAN: No further questions, Your
3 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Any other -- well,
4 that's the re-examination. This is all we have for
5 this witness. Thank you very much and I think that's
6 the end of the examination. Thank you, you are
8 THE WITNESS: Thank you. Thank you, Your
10 MR. MORAN: Your Honour, the Defence would
11 call Dr. Jusufbegovic.
12 JUDGE JAN: Same as the witness who appeared
13 for Delalic?
14 MR. MORAN: Your Honour, I don't know. We
15 can ask him. I have no idea.
16 JUDGE JAN: I think you examined Dr. Ahmed
18 MR. MORAN: I think they're brothers.
19 They're related somehow, cousins something like that,
20 but we can ask. Now that I recall, I was confused and
21 was talking to that doctor about what this doctor is
22 going to testify to and I got a very blank stare.
23 MS. McHENRY: May I just for now indicate
24 that my understanding from Defence counsel was that
25 this witness may testify about medical details of some
1 of his patients. And I would ask that any such
2 information be done in private session.
3 MR. MORAN: Your Honour, just so the record
4 is clear, he's already been instructed by me and he has
5 agreed that there are certain things, certain medical
6 procedures, certain things, and I have asked him not to
7 mention certain things in specific because of a
8 previous ruling of the Trial Chamber. And, secondly,
9 anything that in his opinion should be kept
10 confidential, if he would say so, he will ask to go
11 into private section.
12 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: To be on the safe side,
13 we'll go into private session in case we have problems,
14 we have to redact.
15 MR. MORAN: Is it the Trial
16 Chamber's pleasure and it's fine with me just to do
17 this entire thing in private session.
18 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Yes, private session.
19 MR. MORAN: That's fine, Your Honour. I have
20 absolutely no problem with that.
21 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Since the bulk of his
22 testimony might affect such things.
23 (Private session)
24 (The witness entered court)
13 Page 13601 to 13620 redacted - in closed session
8 (Open Session)
9 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Yes. You can see how
10 much we bandied the names.
11 MR. MORAN: Pardon me, Your Honour?
12 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: You can see how much we
13 bandied the names of those prohibited witnesses.
14 MR. MORAN: Yes. I was more worried about
15 bandying their medical conditions than their names.
16 Your Honour was quite correct in just going into
17 private session.
18 Judge, I am out of witnesses. We've got two
19 more that are flying in, they will be in late tonight.
20 Remember, I told you a little bit earlier there was
21 some problem with getting seats on aeroplanes. And I
22 would ask the Trial Chamber's indulgence -- we've been
23 continually cutting back our number of witnesses, as
24 the Trial Chamber knows. I would ask the Trial
25 Chamber's indulgence and let us -- since these people
1 will be in late tonight, if we let them sleep in in the
2 morning and let us talk to them, and bring them in
3 Thursday to testify. They should be both fairly
5 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Can they come in in the
6 afternoon tomorrow?
7 MR. MORAN: Your Honour, we can see --
8 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Even if they could for
9 that time and start at 2.30.
10 MR. MORAN: I have a 2.00 appointment with
11 the President involving not this case but another
12 person I represent. I'd rather not go any further than
14 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Don't let that affect
16 MR. MORAN: I understand that, Your Honours,
17 but I would ask your indulgence to let me go to that
18 and discuss with President McDonald the matters
19 involving this other client who is a member of our bar.
20 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Mr. Karabdic is here and
21 we will carry on at 2.30.
22 How long is your appointment? Thirty
23 minutes, so we start at three.
24 MR. MORAN: Your Honour, I suspect that
25 President McDonald will be rather short and to the
1 point on this matter. Knowing Judge McDonald as I do,
2 she is not a person to mince words.
3 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: So we can start at
5 MR. MORAN: I presume we can start at three,
6 Your Honours.
7 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Is this your last
8 witness for today?
9 MR. MORAN: Yes, Your Honour. Like I say, we
10 are out of witnesses. There was another witness that
11 was on our list. It turns out other people have
12 testified to the same thing, and I don't want to waste
13 your time.
14 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: You've asked for a
15 subpoena for a third witness?
16 MR. MORAN: Yes, Your Honour. That's the
17 fellow who actually brought the food to the camp. And
18 the reason we ask for the subpoena for him is, again,
19 his wife won't let him come without one.
20 And also, as I understand, he is on
21 Mr. Landzo's witness list, so if we can get him here
22 now, it's just as easy. Or if there's a time problem,
23 we can bring him in during Landzo's case, but he's
24 going to at some point need a subpoena.
25 Also, I understand -- I have not seen it, but
1 that the subpoena that was issued for the other two
2 witnesses was to appear on Tuesday.
3 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: The 7th.
4 MR. MORAN: Yes, Your Honour. We have
5 coordinated with Victim Witness, and I am not sure
6 whether the Bosnian government has physically served
7 those subpoenas yet or not, although Mr. Karabdic did
8 speak to some officials with that government over the
9 weekend, and I think that they will be quite willing to
10 serve them and quite willing to cooperate with the
11 Tribunal. So I don't think that will be a problem.
12 I do ask for that subpoena on Mr. Ustalic.
13 The same day would be fine. I don't think he will be
14 on very long.
15 Remember, the Trial Chamber has set aside the
16 8th for Dr. Bellas. And I don't know how long he will
17 be. And that would pretty well close down our case.
18 We may be able to give you back a day or two.
19 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: We'll see how it works
21 MS. McMURREY: Your Honours, if I might, the
22 Defence of Esad Landzo has quite a few outstanding
23 motions before the Court, and I would like to know when
24 and -- when these motions can be heard and some
25 decisions made. They affect the presentation of our
1 evidence coming up, and I'd like to take care of them
2 ahead of time and not wait 'til the 11th hour.
3 JUDGE JAN: Safe conduct passes have been
4 issued to a number of your witnesses.
5 MS. McMURREY: Yes, Your Honour, they have.
6 Those are not the pending motions.
7 JUDGE JAN: You are asking the Prosecution to
8 indicate to you the suspects among your list of
10 MS. McMURREY: Yes, Your Honour. We can't
11 effectively give any witnesses, who may be coming under
12 the safe conduct, the Rule 42 warnings and offer them
13 the right to have counsel, if we don't know exactly who
14 are the suspects that the Prosecution has stated.
15 I talked to Ms. McHenry -- well, Ms. Boler
16 spoke to Ms. McHenry, and her response was we had heard
17 the Prosecution evidence and we can draw our own
18 conclusions. With such rights at stake before this
19 Tribunal, I don't think it's right for us to guess who
20 may be the suspects. We have a right to know at this
21 point so that we are able to inform them properly.
22 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: -- to satisfy that none
23 of your witnesses is a suspect?
24 MS. McMURREY: No, Your Honour. Ms. McHenry
25 clearly represented the other day that some of my
1 witnesses are suspects, but she hasn't told me which
2 ones are. And I think it's most important that before
3 they appear in The Hague that they be given their
4 rights under Rule 42, and they be given the opportunity
5 to have counsel, if they want it at this point, before
6 they can make an informed decision about what to
7 testify to. And, you know, what rights they have at
8 their disposal, if they are considered suspects.
9 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Until they are so
10 designated as suspects, should they be entitled to
11 those rights?
12 MS. McMURREY: Your Honour, in my motion I
13 cited on the record Ms. McHenry stating in this
14 courtroom that some of my witnesses are suspects. I
15 think we have a right to know which ones she is talking
16 about at this point.
17 MR. NIEMANN: Your Honours, this is a
18 misrepresentation of the position, if I may say so.
19 The position is that some of the witnesses that were
20 proposed to be called, we have interviewed, and in the
21 course of the interview we gave them a warning, as we
22 would give a suspect. That doesn't automatically
23 determine that they are suspects. It's a precaution
24 that is taken by investigators every day, if there's a
25 potential that someone could become one.
1 In any event, in relation to those persons,
2 we have told Ms. McHenry the names -- I'm sorry, Ms.
3 McMurrey the names, and so to suggest that we are not
4 going to give those names is incorrect.
5 In relation to the balance of the --
6 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: You mean the names of
7 those who you regard as suspects?
8 MS. McMURREY: Absolutely not, Your Honours.
9 We have not received any indication who those persons
10 might be, except --
11 MR. NIEMANN: Yes, that we interviewed. The
12 people that we interviewed as suspects, that's what I
13 am talking about. Those people that we interviewed as
14 suspects, we said who they were.
15 MS. McMURREY: Your Honour, there is only one
16 witness on my list that I know for sure, which is a
17 protected witness, DB.4, who was given his rights
18 before. I had been informed that there are other
19 people on my list that they treat as suspects. And
20 under the definitions of our statute a suspect is a
21 person --
22 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: I think that is very
23 well-known. If they have designated anybody as
24 suspects, then no more warnings will be given to him.
25 MS. McMURREY: Your Honour, I feel I have an
1 obligation as an attorney --
2 JUDGE JAN: Haven't you been given the names
3 of those suspects?
4 MS. McMURREY: I have only been given that
5 DB.4 was given suspect warnings. I have been told that
6 other people have also -- I'm sorry, there are two
7 witnesses that have been given suspect warnings, but
8 there are other people on my list, I believe, that are
9 suspects from the Prosecution also.
10 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: You believe?
11 MS. McMURREY: Yes, Your Honour.
12 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Not that the Prosecution
13 itself so believes?
14 MS. McMURREY: Well, I don't understand at
15 this point why they can't put in writing, tell me who
16 they believe the suspects are, and then there is no
17 problem with it.
18 MR. NIEMANN: Your Honours, if I may. I
19 mean, Your Honours may have had an opportunity to read
20 this motion, where the Prosecution is described as a
21 snake lying behind a log. I was somewhat disconcerted
22 when I first read that, Your Honours, but was happy to
23 see that Ms. McMurrey referred to her witnesses as
25 Your Honours, our position on this is that no
1 prosecutorial agency anywhere in the world gives out
2 the names of people who it may consider to be suspects,
3 which are in the course of investigation, and we are
4 not going to do it either. There are procedures
5 available, namely, if the witness testifies and says
6 something that may incriminate him or her, then
7 something can be done about that in the course of the
9 The safe conduct ensures that while the
10 person is here, we are not going to pounce on that
11 suspecting rabbit and put them in jail. That's the
12 whole purpose of the order. We are not going to tell
13 Ms. McMurrey or anybody else who we are investigating,
14 and no prosecutorial agency ever would be expected to.
15 And all the procedures are in place to ensure that this
16 witness can freely come to The Hague, can give the
17 testimony, can seek whatever protections may be
18 available to them from the Chamber, and return safely
19 from whence they came.
20 Now, if they go back there and they have said
21 something here or we are in the middle of an
22 investigation, we will go and arrest them, if we can.
23 But if we can't, well that's another matter. But we
24 are not going to tell Ms. McMurrey about it, Your
1 JUDGE JAN: (Microphone not on) -- if the
2 court forces them to make a statement --
3 MR. NIEMANN: We won't be able to use it
5 MS. McMURREY: Well, Your Honour, in order to
6 know who the people are that I need to advise about
7 under Rule 90 (f), as far as the proceedings in the
8 courtroom, I need to know who is a suspect.
9 JUDGE JAN: You can assure them that they can
10 go back home safely.
11 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Let me tell you very,
12 very clearly there is no court which can compel a
13 Prosecutor to exercise his discretion to disclose his
14 suspects. It is entirely a discretionary matter based
15 on the evidence before him. I mean, it's not for us to
16 tell him, you must disclose someone who he suspects.
17 We can't do that. It is not within our power.
18 MS. McMURREY: Just for clarification, you
19 know, I was relying on the representation that
20 Ms. McHenry made in court. And I asked for the names.
21 She said, basically, it would -- or you said, I
22 believe, the court said that you will be told who the
23 witnesses -- who the suspects are, and I relied upon
25 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: The Prosecution, if it
1 has made up its mind about who it suspects, can
2 exercise its discretion in that regard to tell you.
3 But it's not for the courts, who does not know who he
4 decides to suspect, to tell you to give you the name
5 who it suspects.
6 MS. McMURREY: So I am supposed to guess from
7 the evidence that the Prosecutor --
8 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: How would you know who
9 he suspects?
10 MS. McMURREY: Well, she said I could draw my
11 own conclusions from the evidence presented so far.
12 And based upon that I am supposed to invoke their Rule
13 42 rights and offer them counsel at that point, not
14 knowing one way or the other?
15 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: The Prosecution can even
16 invoke the Rule 42 rights --
17 MS. McMURREY: Your Honour, I believe, as an
18 officer of the court, if I believe this witness is a
19 suspect, I have an obligation to give them their Rule
20 42 warnings.
21 JUDGE JAN: But you can tell them that they
22 can come back home safe. In this respect -- maybe
23 there are ongoing investigations.
24 MS. McMURREY: Sorry, I didn't get the last
1 JUDGE JAN: Maybe there is some ongoing
2 investigations. And he might even become a suspect
3 during the course of the trial. How can they at this
4 time commit themselves, no, no, he is not a suspect?
5 MS. McMURREY: I just thought they had a
6 concrete list of who they knew was a suspect, and if
7 they are refusing to reveal that, I suppose --
8 JUDGE JAN: We can only ensure you that they
9 will go back home safe. Mr. Niemann will not grab them
11 MS. McMURREY: I will just have to advise
12 every one of my witnesses, if they think there is
13 evidence that may tend to incriminate them in the
14 future --
15 JUDGE JAN: You can tell them they have the
16 protection, that if they state anything which
17 incriminates them, and they raise an objection before
18 making the statement, that statement will not be used
19 in any proceedings before this Tribunal. That should
20 be sufficient for you. That's what the Rule says.
21 MS. McMURREY: Yes, that is what the Rule
22 says. Thank you, Your Honour. I will just need to
23 advise each witness of that before they testify.
24 I also have other outstanding issues. I
25 think the Court had ordered. On Friday evening I
1 received an order about five o'clock that we were going
2 to hear at ten o'clock yesterday morning the issue on
3 the subpoena duces tecum. And I have some evidence if
4 the court would like to hear that at this point. But
5 we have -- I also have a request for the definition
6 of --
7 JUDGE JAN: How can we give you any
8 definition at this stage? We need your evidence and
9 facts and then we draw our conclusions. We are not
10 writing a book of law here, law of crimes here.
11 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: You plead a Defence
12 whose parameters you do not know.
13 MS. McMURREY: Your Honour, it's not
14 defined. Therefore, when we begin the presentation of
15 our evidence --
16 JUDGE JAN: We give our findings after we
17 know what the evidence is.
18 MS. McMURREY: Your Honour, how do we know
19 what it is we have to prove?
20 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: You've pleaded it
22 JUDGE JAN: The judicial matter, as we
23 understand this, this first inquiry into facts. Then
24 the facts are established, then we'll determine what
25 principle of law is to be applied. So unless we know
1 the facts, how can we tell you what is the definition
2 of diminished responsibility in the circumstances of
3 this case? How can we do it? You argue it after the
4 evidence is given.
5 MS. McMURREY: But the burden shifts to the
7 JUDGE JAN: Of course it does. But then we
8 must know what the facts are. We must first of all
9 know what the evidence states on factual ground.
10 MS. McMURREY: So we present a blanket amount
11 of evidence hoping that the Court --
12 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Actually, what did you
13 have in mind when you are pleading a Defence? What did
14 you have in mind?
15 MS. McMURREY: Your Honour, all I had to draw
16 from is the jurisdiction that I come from, and we would
17 never go into Court not knowing what it is we have to
18 plead. We are given definitions ahead of time. This
19 Court doesn't have any definitions.
20 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: That's what your
21 American --
22 JUDGE JAN: The Court never gives findings of
23 questions law in a vacuum. You have to refer to the
24 facts. You produce your facts and then we'll see.
25 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: You know, since you
1 shifted from the Durham (Phon) rule, the story has
2 always been there. Everybody knows what a particular
3 Defence, which is based on insanity, are not listed.
4 This is your problem, because the Durham (Phon) rule is
5 generally used in the Americans --
6 MS. McMURREY: This is not insanity.
7 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: This is a passion
9 MS. McMURREY: No, Your Honour, it's a
10 different defence completely.
11 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Okay, diminished
13 MS. McMURREY: Yes, Your Honour.
14 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Okay. Go and read it
15 again in the American jurisdiction. Go ahead and read
16 it again.
17 MS. McMURREY: It's not an American
18 jurisdiction. It's in British jurisdiction.
19 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: I don't have to argue
20 with you. But I am telling you, the shift has always
21 been from both sides of the Atlantic, not only from
22 Scotland, from Britain, from US, from Canada, they
23 have always been the same. And it is not new, even in
24 the United States. It's there.
25 So if you really say you have been using it
1 with the case law jurisdiction there, then pick it up.
2 And from what you have said, you have now pleaded it,
3 you need the facts on which you are pleading. If those
4 are the facts on which you rely, plead it --
5 JUDGE JAN: No Court can give you a finding
6 on a question of law in a vacuum.
7 MS. McMURREY: In a vacuum, no --
8 JUDGE JAN: Produce the evidence and we will
10 MS. McMURREY: I am going to assume that we
11 will go with the most widely accepted, basic
12 definition, and I will proceed based upon that
13 assumption on my part.
14 JUDGE JAN: That's for you to decide what
15 evidence to lead.
16 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Don't be too
17 introspective about it or feel that it is a closed
18 jurisdiction. The law has been very clearly stated
19 since 1957. It's clear.
20 MS. McMURREY: You are right, the Homicide
21 Act in Great Britain of 1957 was very clear, and I'm
22 glad you gave me an indication of that. Thank you. I
23 think I have a clearer view on what it is I am looking
24 for, anyway.
25 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: I thought you knew it
1 when you were pleading it.
2 MS. McMURREY: Your Honour, we don't study
3 the 1957 Homicide Act in our law school in our country
4 because we do not have a defence of diminished mental
5 capacity in the United States. We have a mitigation of
6 punishment, but we do not have a defence. So thank
8 MS. RESIDOVIC: Your Honours, I would like to
9 do something much simpler now. We have a request,
10 which we have submitted to the Trial Chamber. The
11 Prosecutor has heard the Defence of Mr. Delalic, and he
12 now already probably knows whether there will be a
13 replica to that defence. Our request is, if this is
14 certain and if they know which evidence they are going
15 to lead, that they should, according to their duties
16 based on Article 66, to let us know about that.
17 And with regard to your respect, I would like
18 you -- I would like to ask you to tell us under which
19 -- in which deadlines this should be done based on
20 your ruling. I would like to say that so far we have
21 received no response by the Prosecution to take our
22 request into the -- into consideration, and I would
23 like for us -- for all of us to be ready to do our task
24 within this deadline. And therefore I would like to
25 ask you to take this request into consideration and to
1 issue an order, if the Prosecution decides to replicate
2 the defence of Mr. Delalic.
3 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: I thought you argued the
4 motion about the limitation of your defence and losing
5 your case and all that accompanied it. I think --
6 there is a decision on that.
7 MR. KUZMANOVIC: Your Honour, I think she is
8 referring to rebuttal, Your Honour.
9 MS. RESIDOVIC: No, I was not talking about
10 that request. I -- we submitted a request which should
11 demand from the Prosecution to state whether they will
12 have rebuttal with regard to Mr. Delalic, that all our
13 evidence -- that all the evidence is shown to us and
14 that we are given the witness names.
15 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: (No microphone) -- that
16 motion, whether there would be rebuttal or -- they were
17 all in that.
18 JUDGE JAN: It may be premature for the
19 Prosecution to respond to your request. The witness is
20 still being examined. Some of the witnesses, just like
21 today also, spoke about Mr. Delalic. Maybe when the
22 Prosecution -- the Defence evidence is over, the
23 Prosecution will have a clearer picture whether to lead
24 evidence in rebuttal or not.
25 Also, some of the witnesses spoke about that
1 role of Delalic to produce certificates. The lady here
2 -- that he was not holding any particular office.
3 Maybe some of the witnesses produced by the other
4 defendants made something about the role of Mr. Delalic
5 in the affair. So until the whole evidence is over,
6 how can we ask the Prosecutor to give an undertaking or
7 make a statement that he will produce or not produce
8 any evidence in rebuttal?
9 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: It's a joint trial,
10 and --
11 JUDGE JAN: But this is the difficulty with
12 the Prosecutor. Am I right?
13 MR. NIEMANN: Yes, Your Honour.
14 MS. RESIDOVIC: Your Honours, we are not --
15 we do not want to interfere with the Prosecution's
16 work. The Prosecution will do what they will do at the
17 end of evidence. We would just like to know after
18 that, the deadlines within which this distinguished
19 Tribunal will give us to prepare for our rejoinder.
20 And, therefore, in our request there were some
21 deadlines stated for your order which would give us
22 this opportunity to -- which would help this Court be
23 fairer to everybody the way it was so far. And we are
24 all here now in this courtroom and, therefore, I want
25 to just to make sure that we have time if the
1 Prosecutor uses his right to prepare for the rejoinder
2 and for the closing statements. That was the essence
3 of our statement, so that we can prepare.
4 JUDGE JAN: We can only give an estimate of
5 the prosecutor after we know how many days Ms. McMurrey
6 is going to take in leading in evidence. Then we'll
7 have a better idea.
8 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Well, since the
9 Prosecution will, if he does exercise his rights about
10 rebuttals, then when he informs the Trial Chamber, they
11 will know how to fix the time scale.
12 JUDGE JAN: (Microphone not on).
13 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: When he exercises his
14 rights, then we'll know what he has to do, because it
15 will never be through the prejudice of any other...
16 MS. RESIDOVIC: Thank you, Your Honours.
17 That is precisely what I was hoping to hear. As you
18 are well aware, we cannot prepare our rejoinder
20 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Yes, definitely.
21 MS. RESIDOVIC: Thank you, thank you.
22 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, Your Honour.
23 MS. McMURREY: Your Honour, I received a
24 letter from the Prosecution which I responded to
25 today. I think Ms. Boler is getting the reports from
1 the two Dutch doctors right now. Only last weekend,
2 the Italian forensic, I mean, clinical psychologist
3 completed his testing of Mr. Landzo. That report has
4 now been sent to all of the psychiatrists and they will
5 be writing a report which should be available within
6 the week. I just don't have it yet and they couldn't
7 write their report until they had the findings of the
8 clinical psychologist.
9 JUDGE JAN: And how many other witnesses do
10 you intend to examine? Just an idea.
11 MS. McMURREY: I think I have -- well, that
12 is one of the next issues I have. I am having a very
13 difficult time getting my witnesses to come to The
14 Hague. I have the outstanding subpoena duces tecum
15 here., But I filed a new subpoena for witnesses that I
16 have not subpoenaed before. We're having a difficult
18 I filed another motion for leave of court to
19 file to call additional witnesses to replace some of
20 the witnesses that I may or may not be able to call.
21 So I attached to this leave of Court to call additional
22 witnesses. The same kind of notice that the
23 Prosecution gave us. These are witnesses we will call,
24 these are witnesses we may call, but I won't call any
25 more than 20 fact witnesses, okay. I don't know which
1 ones they're going to be until we see whether we get
2 the subpoenas issued and who is going to be able to
3 come. But I won't call any more than 20 fact
4 witnesses. And that means there are three or four
5 expert witnesses. So I really expect to be concluded
6 by the first week in August, August 1, really. Based
7 upon the way all the other testimonies have gone also.
8 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Actually, it depends on
9 how much you understand your case. That is the most
10 important thing.
11 MS. McMURREY: I also wanted to ask the Court
12 another question. Mr. Hawking and victim and witnesses
13 have brought to my attention that we are set to start
14 July 13th. There is no way they can bring any of my
15 witnesses to The Hague until the night of July 13th,
16 because there's no housing from even as far as
17 Rotterdam due to the jazz festival.
18 JUDGE JAN: Maybe they can be accommodated in
19 Rotterdam because it's only about 20 minutes drive.
20 MS. McMURREY: I believe the victim and
21 witnesses has taken that into account already and
22 they've said that there is really no way. At that
23 point, of course, I would have to rent a car or --
24 JUDGE JAN: You may not have the comforts of
25 The Hague, but it's within drivable distance.
1 MS. McMURREY: If we start July 13th, I am
2 predicting that we'll be through within two and a half
3 weeks based upon --
4 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Before you enter the
5 length of a trial you should know exactly what they are
6 about to say, that determines how long it will take.
7 MS. McMURREY: Your Honour, it also
8 determines on the amount of the cross-examination from
9 the prosecution. I can give my best guess, but I can't
10 narrow it down to the minute and the second. And I
11 don't think that I should be asked to at this point. I
12 am doing the best I can to organise this ahead of time
13 so we don't have any glitches when we come there.
14 Also going back to the subpoena duces tecum,
15 which the order on Friday asked me to answer two
16 questions for the Court. And one of the questions is
17 answered here. Friday afternoon I faxed to the Bosnian
18 Embassy the question about the Konjic hospital. Ms.
19 Vividovic (Phon) from the Bosnian Embassy, contacted
20 the Deputy Minister of Health in Sarajevo. And I have
21 a signed document here from the Deputy Minister of
22 Health in Sarajevo stating the status -- it's not a
23 hospital in Konjic, it's a health centre. And it says
24 that it did not exist before the war, but it was formed
25 during the war as a war hospital and it is within the
1 net of war hospitals. Work on war hospitals was legal
2 and those hospitals consisted of a net of war hospitals
3 that ceased to exist after the Dayton agreement was
4 signed in 1995. So now it's considered a health centre
5 in Konjic, not a hospital, and it says we cannot
6 confirm for sure whether a hospital will be registered
7 there within the net of health institutions, but they
8 don't believe so. So, at this point, to re-urge my
9 request for the important medical documents that I
10 believe are in the --
11 JUDGE JAN: Where are those documents then?
12 MS. McMURREY: We don't have --
13 JUDGE JAN: You have to tell us where those
14 documents are before you can ask us to produce them.
15 MS. McMURREY: Well, I think the question
16 was, if it's not a state hospital, can you order the --
17 JUDGE JAN: We can ask the Bosnian government
18 for assistance in getting the subpoena served on
19 persons or institutions within the state.
20 MS. McMURREY: Well, the Bosnian Embassy and
21 the Ministry of Health cannot confirm that that is a
22 state hospital at this point.
23 JUDGE JAN: You have to give the correct
24 address. You have to give the correct description.
25 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Even if it's a health
1 centre, it's still within the jurisdiction of the
3 MS. McMURREY: Now I think we have satisfied
4 every type of a requirement needed. We cannot get the
5 documents, that we have to directly subpoena duces
6 tecum the health centre in Konjic and ask the custodian
7 of record or Dr. Buturovic to bring them with him when
8 he comes, since he was the doctor who --
9 JUDGE JAN: You ask the doctor where the
10 record is, maybe he can give you an indication. You
11 see, this institution, whatever you call it, is within
12 the territorial limits of the State of
13 Bosnia-Herzegovina and you can always request them.
14 MS. McMURREY: But the question of the Court
15 to me was, was it a state hospital? My answer is that
16 the Bosnian embassy says it's not a state hospital.
17 And also as far as Dr. Buturovic goes, may I
18 let Ms. Boler respond to that, because we have tried as
19 the team, the team of Delic has tried. He will not
20 talk to us. He will not respond to us. And the
21 medical records of Mr. Landzo, Mirko Babic and Branko
22 Gotovac have not been secured at this point and I find
23 them very necessary for the Defence of this case.
24 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: And you want such a
1 MS. McMURREY: Yes, Your Honour. He did the
2 surgery on Mr. Landzo's hand. As a fact witness, I
3 would never ask him to form an opinion coming
4 adversely. As a fact witness, I need him to testify
5 about the injuries to Mr. Landzo.
6 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Maybe you've not paid
7 his wife's fee.
8 MS. McMURREY: Your Honour, I have turned
9 that over to the registry. That's in the registry's
10 hands, not mine. Well, arrangements will be made to
11 ensure that you get your witness, but you have to be
12 sure that it is not a hostile witness.
13 MS. McMURREY: Well, Your Honour, I'll take
14 him as a hostile witness. I'll take him any way we can
15 bring him.
16 But besides the issue of the subpoena duces
17 tecum, which I assume that the Court will issue some
18 kind of order if I give you the address of the health
19 centre in Konjic, that we need those documents because
20 they're very important and this is 10 days before I am
21 to start my trial basically. And I would like to have
22 those documents or at least to know that we're in the
23 process of securing those documents. I suppose the
24 Court will render some kind of written order on that
25 some time soon because --
1 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: If you have applied for
2 a subpoena, you get in touch with John Hawkings. We'll
3 sign the subpoena.
4 MS. McMURREY: Thank you. I applied on June
5 22nd, so --
6 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Only on Friday.
7 MS. McMURREY: Yes, Your Honour.
8 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: That was the 26th.
9 MS. McMURREY: No, no, no. June 22nd was the
10 Monday we got back from our week off.
11 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: I think the first I
12 heard of it was about 6.30 p.m. on Friday, the 26th.
13 MS. McMURREY: Your Honour, That's my new
14 subpoena for the testifying witnesses. The subpoena
15 duces tecum was filed June 22nd.
16 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: You didn't even give
17 particulars of the hospital and they're not appropriate
18 designation of the documents you want.
19 MS. McMURREY: Your Honour, I specifically
20 said on the Monday we returned back that we need the
21 medical records of three people. That's as specific as
22 I can get. I don't have, you know, registration
23 numbers or cause numbers because the doctor refuses to
24 talk to us. And when my investigator goes to the
25 office of records there, they say that the documents
1 have been checked out. And there's no record of him.
2 I mean, there's record that they existed, but somebody
3 else has them in their possession. I can bring my
4 investigator here to testify about that if you'd like
5 to hear from him, but Ms. Boler just returned last
6 night from Bosnia and I would like to ask the Court to
7 hear what she has to say about this because these are
8 really important for the Defence, if you will listen to
9 Ms. Boler.
10 MS. BOLER: Your Honours, I will just state
11 that I spent the last few days in Bosnia and got back
12 last night. Certainly discussed this with our
13 investigator, Mr. Asim Suto and also discussed the same
14 thing five or six weeks ago when I was there and in
15 between. So we've been trying for quite some time to
16 get these records. And Mr. Suto told me that, even
17 five or six weeks ago when I was there previously, that
18 he tried to get these records on several occasions and
19 that Dr. Buturovic would not give them these records
20 for the reasons that you just mentioned, Judge John and
21 maybe some other ones also.
22 JUDGE JAN: I wasn't serious.
23 MS. BOLER: But I think that that was pretty
24 much exactly what Dr. Buturovic told our investigator.
25 Also, talked to Mr. Suto again yesterday
1 since I was there to see if he had had any subsequent
2 luck getting those records from Dr. Buturovic. And,
3 clearly, we are unable to get these records. The
4 reason I talked about it again yesterday with Mr. Suto
5 is because Cynthia faxed me a copy of your order. I
6 was aware yesterday, you know, that there was some
7 urgency for us to respond to this order.
8 So I just, unless you have any questions, I
9 think that's all I have got to add to, just to verify
10 that we are indeed trying to get those records and
12 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Is there any evidence
13 that the doctor has the records himself?
14 MS. BOLER: I don't know new evidence, but I
15 can tell you that Mr. Suto told me that Dr. Buturovic
16 told him -- I may not be able to quote exactly what he
17 said -- but, basically, I am not going to give you
18 those records. I believe that Dr. Buturovic does have
19 access to those records and I believe that he's
20 withholding those records from us and I think
22 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Let's see what a
23 subpoena on him would do.
24 MS. McMURREY: Well, I have one quote from my
25 investigator too. When he asked Dr. Buturovic about
1 getting the records, Dr. Buturovic said, "You'll have
2 to see my wife about that." And I can represent that's
3 what my investigator told me. And this was on my
4 November trip -- no, that was my February trip to
5 Bosnia when I was trying to get the records at that
6 point. But I would like to ask the Court if the Court
7 would like for me to re-file another subpoena duces
8 tecum with the address of the hospital or whether I can
9 just file a supplement to this subpoena with the
10 address and maybe more specificity, whatever you would
11 like, I need to get this taken care of as soon as
13 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Get in touch with John
14 Hawkings, the more up to date the address and all the
15 particulars and so that we will follow it up.
16 MS. McMURREY: I would be happy to do that.
17 Thank you very much.
18 Now, the motion that I did file at the 11th
19 hour on Friday was the motion to subpoena -- no, motion
20 for leave -- no, I just filed these today, Your
21 Honour. I'm sorry, these have been filed today. It's
22 a subpoena duces tecum -- I mean, a regular subpoena
23 for the witnesses to come testify and the leave of
24 court to add the additional witnesses and that was
25 based on my conversation with Ms. Boler at two o'clock
1 this morning when she slid these things under my door
2 telling me that these witnesses refused to come without
3 a subpoena. So I stayed out of court this morning to
4 draw these up so that we are not wasting the Court's
5 time, but I feel that it's very necessary. I don't
6 want to wait any longer to discuss the issue of these
7 subpoenas because I would like to start my case on time
8 and I would like to have my witnesses that I need
9 present in The Hague.
10 So based on what Ms. Boler represented to me
11 from her conversations with these witnesses over the
12 last three days, it's necessary for us to issue the
13 subpoenas if we want them to appear in The Hague. And
14 this was just filed this morning after our return from
15 writing them.
16 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Thank you very much. We
17 will see to it. And we will look at it and see if --
18 well, I think we will try and help.
19 MS. McMURREY: I appreciate help right now,
20 thank you.
21 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: I think that's all we
22 have on the record. Because there is -- we've cleared
23 all the motions. Some of them are not really necessary
24 motions, given your hearing, merely because you were a
25 little agitated, though some of them need not be filed
1 at all. So we will rise and reassemble at 3.00 p.m.
3 MS. McMURREY: I just wanted to assure the
4 Court that I don't file any motion that I don't feel is
5 necessary for the Defence.
6 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: The one on the
7 diminished responsibility was not necessary. If we
8 have anything for tomorrow morning, I don't think we
9 do, we'll reassemble at 3.00 p.m. tomorrow.
10 MR. MORAN: Your Honour, again, I thank you
11 very much for accommodating my visit --
12 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 4.30
13 p.m. To be reconvened on Wednesday, the 1st
14 of July, 1998 at 3.00 p.m.