1 Wednesday, July 1st, 1998
2 --- Upon commencing at 3.07 p.m.
3 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Good afternoon, ladies
4 and gentlemen. We'll continue this afternoon with Mr.
6 MR. MORAN: Your Honour, I believe it's Mr.
7 Karabdic who has the next witness. But while I am on
8 my feet, I want to express my personal thanks for
9 accommodating me for the meeting with President
10 McDonald. It solved some problems, I believe.
11 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Thank you very much.
12 (The witness entered court)
13 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: May we have the
14 appearances, please.
15 MR. NIEMANN: Your Honour, please, my name is
16 Niemann. I appear with my colleague, Ms. McHenry, and
17 Mr. Huber for the Prosecution, Your Honours.
18 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Appearances for the
19 Defence please.
20 MS. RESIDOVIC: Good afternoon, Your Honour,
21 my name is Edina Residovic. I am Defence counsel for
22 Mr. Zejnil Delalic. Along with me, Mr. Zejnil Delalic
23 is defended by Mr. Eugene O'Sullivan professor from
24 Canada. Thank you.
25 MR. KUZMANOVIC: Good afternoon, Your
1 Honours, Tomislav Kuzmanovic along with Niko Djuric on
2 behalf of defendant, Mr. Mucic.
3 MR. KARABDIC: Good afternoon, Your Honour,
4 my name is Salih Karabdic. I am Defence counsel for
5 Mr. Hazim Delic. With me, Mr. Hazim Delic is defended
6 by Mr. Thomas Moran, attorney from Texas.
7 MS. McMURREY: Good afternoon, Your Honours.
8 I am Cynthia McMurrey and I defend Esad Landzo along
9 with co-counsel counsel, Ms. Nancy Boler.
10 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Thank you, very much.
11 You may now swear the witness please.
12 THE WITNESS: I solemnly declare that I will
13 speak the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the
15 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: You may sit down now.
16 THE WITNESS: Thank you.
17 MR. KARABDIC: If I may proceed, Your
19 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Yes, you may.
20 WITNESS: ADEM OMERKIC.
21 Examined by Mr. Karabdic:
22 Q. Good afternoon, sir.
23 A. Good afternoon.
24 Q. Did you rest from your trip?
25 A. Yes, I did, thank you.
1 Q. My name is Salih Karabdic, I am Defence
2 counsel for Mr. Hazim Delic and I will put a number of
3 questions to you. I would like to ask you to state
4 your name to the Tribunal.
5 A. My name is Adem Omerkic.
6 Q. In front of this same chamber of this
7 Tribunal you testified on the 31st of October, 1997.
8 Since that time, have there been any changes in your
9 personal data?
10 A. Generally speaking, no.
11 Q. Have there been any changes at all?
12 A. As far as the department where I work, I
13 don't think so. It is okay. It is okay.
14 Q. Do you today still work as the Chief of the
15 Archives Department of the Army of the Federation?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Are these the same duties that you talked
18 about and you described before this Trial Chamber on
19 the 31st of October, 1997?
20 A. Generally speaking, yes.
21 Q. Is there in your archive a certain procedure
22 for gathering and keeping the documents that are kept
23 in the Archive?
24 A. Yes. We still have a temporary rules of
25 procedure for gathering and working with the data which
1 we gathered during the aggression on our country. And
2 this was signed by General Delic. And I mentioned this
3 during the last testimony.
4 Q. Do the units of the army of B and H, that is
5 to say the Federation Army, oblige to send all their
6 records to this archive?
7 A. Yes. Yes, they do. But I would like to
8 state once again that there was a fire at the building
9 of the archives and in the meantime we were in an
10 interim facility, not in our main facility. And right
11 now we are in a very narrow facility where the working
12 conditions are not very good. But, in the future, we
13 hope to solve this. With regard to this, we have
14 gathered the documentation, but because of these
15 conditions, we had to interrupt our activities which
16 have to do with gathering of information.
17 Q. From what I understand, you have already
18 collected a lot of information, what happened to the
19 other records that you did not collect? What happened
20 to this and where is this?
21 A. The majority of the material which was --
22 which was -- which was -- which we should have gathered
23 during the aggression, but we did not, was kept in the
24 corps, in the army and some other parts of this
25 material because of the war or because of inadequate
1 behaviour of certain individuals was destroyed. But I
2 do know that certain documents we cannot gather, we
3 cannot collect, even though we are working on this and
4 we are working very hard.
5 Q. Mr. Omerkic, in this archive, is there also
6 an archive of the former fourth corps of the army of
7 the Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina?
8 A. Yes, whichever was handed over to us in the
9 normal procedure. Yes, we think that this material,
10 that these records are with us. But I don't think that
11 all the materials are with us. We do know that all the
12 records have not been handed over to us. I don't know
13 why they weren't.
14 Q. Sir, do you know the general of the army of
15 Bosnia-Herzegovina, Rasim Delic?
16 A. Yes. Yes, I do.
17 Q. Did this commander issue an order to you to
18 establish if there are any documents in your archive
19 and did the commander do this at the request of the
20 Defence of Mr. Hazim Delic and Mr. Zejnil Delalic?
21 A. Yes. The established procedure of our work
22 is such that we fulfil every order of General Delic
23 that he gives to us on a regular basis and that means
24 that also includes all the demands of the Hague
25 Tribunal. All the demands by the Hague Tribunal were
1 also sent along with the requests of General Delic.
2 Q. What did you do when this request came to
4 A. With regard to our conditions, since only
5 myself and three other women are working on these
6 issues now, we have done our utmost to find the
7 requested documents. And I think that we did manage to
8 collect the key documents. And we tried to do our
9 best, what we could after the request of General
11 Q. Did you find all the documents that were
13 A. No, we did not find all the documents. Here
14 I have 55 copies of originals that are in our archive
15 and 10 copies of copies which do not exist in the
16 archive. So we have 10 copies of already made copies.
17 Q. Then I would like to ask some more questions
18 about your activities. When you establish whether a
19 document is authentic or not, what characteristics of
20 documents do you base your decisions about their
21 authenticity upon?
22 A. I already said this last time. The key
23 things are the seal, which can be distinguished by the
24 colour. It's a blue and a red seal with a fleur-de-lys
25 sign and a checker board. And then there are also
1 signatures and we recognise a lot of signatures
2 immediately. And then the way the document is set out,
3 then the number and the date and also visually we can
4 recognise some documents immediately without these key
5 characteristics for their recognition.
6 Q. Did you look for these characteristics when
7 you were determining the authenticity of these
8 documents that was requested from you by the Defence?
9 A. Yes. That is the way we always work with all
11 Q. Does the Federation Army rely upon the
12 documents that are kept in your archives since they are
13 the original documents?
14 A. Yes. Yes, if there's a demand for certain
15 documents, then these documents are taken as the
16 original ones. And if it happens that we do not have
17 an original, but we do have a copy, then we do try to
18 search and find the document. And then through these
19 people that come to see us, we try to get at the
20 document, at the original of the document. So for our
21 army these, these documents are absolutely truthful.
22 Q. With regard to the request of the Defence of
23 Mr. Delic and Delalic, can you tell us how many
24 documents you found?
25 A. The same thing as I said before.
1 Q. How many?
2 A. We found 55 originals and they are in the
3 archives and 10 of those and 10 other ones, which were
4 not originals, but they ask if people are still
5 mentioned in our records.
6 Q. Did you inform the Defence about your
8 A. Yes. Yes, I did inform the Defence. And I
9 sent the list.
10 Q. I have the original. And this is for the
11 Trial Chamber and these are the originals.
12 MS. McHENRY: May the Prosecution have a
13 copy, please. I know we got something yesterday, but
14 what we got wasn't fully translated.
15 THE REGISTRAR: Defence Document D-102/3 to
17 MR. KARABDIC:
18 Q. Could you please tell us whether this letter,
19 whether this letter with which you informed the Defence
20 also contained a list of documents that you found?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Do you recognise the list that you made?
23 A. Yes, and there's my signature here at the
24 very end. Yes, that's that.
25 Q. I move to admit this as evidence for the
2 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Any objections to the...
3 MS. McHENRY: No objection, Your Honour.
4 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: I really don't know.
5 What documents are these?
6 MR. KARABDIC: There's a list there. Now I
7 will give you the documents themselves. These are
8 documents which already were handed in together with
9 the findings of a military expert, expert witness. If
10 I could ask for the usher to come. If the usher could
11 come again, please.
12 MS. McHENRY: May we have a copy too,
14 MR. KARABDIC: Yes, yes, you may.
15 JUDGE JAN:
16 --- (Kindly be advised microphone is not
18 THE INTERPRETER: There is no translation.
19 JUDGE JAN: Many of these documents are
20 already evidence in this case.
21 MR. MORAN: Your Honour, I am not positive
22 and I could be wrong on this, but as I recall, most of
23 them were admitted solely for the purpose of showing
24 the basis for an expert's decision. And now they're
25 being offered for the truth of the matter asserted
1 therein, Your Honour.
2 JUDGE JAN: For example, appointment opposite
3 Delalic as coordinator.
4 MS. McHENRY: Your Honour, in determining our
5 position as to what we object to or what we would not,
6 we wonder if Defence counsel could assist us in how
7 these documents are relevant to Mr. Delic's case? We
8 can certainly see how some of them might be relevant to
9 Mr. Delalic's case, but just in case we're missing
10 something, maybe Mr. Karabdic could explain how they're
11 relevant to Mr. Delic's case.
12 MR. KARABDIC: The Defence of Mr. Delic and
13 Delalic together have engaged the expert witness and
14 asked for him and the expert witness, by the request of
15 both Defences, has given his testimony here. Delic
16 wants to have -- wants to see that all the facts that
17 were stated in the expert witness testimony to be
18 identified and confirmed because Delic's
19 responsibilities are also connected and depends on
20 this. Delic has been charged with all counts of the
21 indictment and he has been charged with nothing less
22 than the charges that Delalic has been charged with.
23 And, therefore, he has to show his innocence with
24 regard to the entire indictment and to refute all the
25 counts of the indictment and that is his right.
1 MS. RESIDOVIC: Your Honour, if I may help a
2 little here. Do I have your permission?
3 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: If the Prosecution is
4 not satisfied with this submission, then it might help
5 the process. Are you satisfied with the explanation?
6 MS. McHENRY: Yes, Your Honour, thank you.
7 We are not going to object on that basis.
8 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Yes, they are not
9 following up the objection.
10 MR. KARABDIC: Thank you.
11 Q. Your Honour, all the documents have been
12 placed in succession according to the list we received
13 in this letter. And all the documents have been
14 submitted to you here. May I address the witness,
15 please? Sir --
16 MS. McHENRY: I just wonder if it might help
17 expedite things, if the Prosecution states to begin
18 with, that there's only one in terms of this witness
19 testifying, the copies or the original of these
20 documents do exist in his archives, we're not going to
21 object to that. And we don't think it's necessary to
22 go through each document one by one. There's only one
23 document which we would object to and that is the
24 document No. -- Document No. 2 in terms of the copies
25 he found. So, in other words, an after the first 55
1 documents, there are some documents of which he said
2 that were copies. Document No. 2 is a document created
3 in 1996 by an army officer at the request Ms.
4 Residovic. And Your Honours have already found on
5 several occasions that that document is not admissible.
6 And so with request to this witness' testimony, that
7 would be the only document we're objecting to.
8 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: That document from his
9 evidence are not documents which are original to his
10 archive evidence.
11 MS. McHENRY: Yes. And we are not going to
12 -- we are not objecting on the basis that they are
13 copies. If the witness says there are copies in his
14 archives, we agree that they can be admitted for the
15 purpose of establishing that there are copies in his
16 archives. Our objection is that this document is
17 entirely irrelevant and objectionable, since it's
18 something that was created just for the defence of
19 Mr. Delalic, at Ms. Residovic's request. It is not a
20 contemporaneous document. And on several occasions
21 previously Your Honours have already found that this
22 document may not be admitted.
23 JUDGE JAN: What page?
24 MS. RESIDOVIC: I apologise, Your Honour. In
25 connection with --
1 MR. KARABDIC: Please, Your Honour, may I
2 answer to the Prosecution? Mr. Omerkic stated that in
3 the archives of the Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina there is
4 only -- there are copies of this document, an original
5 copy, which they consider to be the true copy. The
6 question of content, that is another matter altogether,
7 but this document exists.
8 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: It was quite clear as to
9 the source of those documents. The first 55 authentic
10 to him, original to his archives. The subsequent 10
11 are those which he found copies from elsewhere. And
12 this is one of those which is being objected to as not
13 authentic, as having been created much later after the
14 event, on the request of counsel.
15 Now, I don't know your argument against the
16 objection, but he could not even authenticate that one,
17 because it is, in the first place, not his document,
18 and then, in the second place, it was not anything
19 authentic, as far as he is concerned.
20 MR. KARABDIC: He said that these were not
21 originals, but were copies. However, he insisted that
22 these copies are -- were found in the archives of the
23 Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina, and that they are used as
24 documents, as originals, which don't exist. But he
25 insists and stresses that these are copies.
1 Your Honour, can I understand this, that the
2 Prosecution has nothing against the -- doesn't object
3 authenticity, and that except the document number 2,
4 which you object to, that to the others you do not?
5 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: That is the position. I
6 think they said it already.
7 MR. KARABDIC:
8 Q. Mr. Omerkic, please find that document number
9 2, the copy number 2, which has been mentioned by Madam
10 Holmes (Phon). Tell us, where has it been kept and
11 what do you know about it? Please, switch on the
12 ELMO. Could the usher switch on the ELMO.
13 A. Well, of all these documents that I have
14 observed, this is documents in 1992. This document we
15 are speaking to is from 1996, and they are not the
16 originals, as I said, with the seal. This is one out
17 of the 10 photocopies which I have mentioned, while the
18 rest are -- 55 are originals. And only this refers to
19 the intervention of somebody signed by General Delic
20 for approval for something for Mr. Delalic.
21 Q. So we have the signature, as you can see on
22 this copy. Is it the signature of Mr. Delic?
23 A. Yes, it is.
24 Q. And the seal, is it the seal which is
25 generally used?
1 A. But I emphasise it is a photocopy of a
3 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: We still haven't
4 understood the point. It is a photocopy of a
5 photocopy. It was not any document which is authentic
6 to him, and he cannot certify it as such. This is what
7 he is saying.
8 MR. KARABDIC:
9 Q. You said that you recognised the signature of
10 Commander Delic.
11 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: This is your witness who
12 you have brought to authenticate documents, and he said
13 things which --
14 MR. KARABDIC: We propose that also this
15 document be submitted as evidence, evidence
16 authenticity --
17 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: You propose it, but it's
18 not acceptable.
19 MR. KARABDIC: Yes, Your Honour. All the
20 remaining -- Your Honour, I request that all the
21 remaining documents be submitted and accepted as
23 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Yes, I think we do,
24 since that was the only one objected to.
25 MR. KARABDIC: That is all, Your Honour. And
1 I thank you. Thank you, sir, for your testimony.
2 MS. McHENRY: I'm sorry, the Prosecution is
3 going to have just a few questions.
4 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Yes. Any questions?
5 MS. RESIDOVIC: Your Honour, I have only two
6 questions for this witness.
7 Cross-examined by Ms. Residovic
8 Q. Sir, in view of the facts that you've
9 confirmed the existence of certain photocopies in your
10 archives, can you tell us, are the photocopies of
11 certain documents in the archives of the
12 Bosnia-Herzegovina Army, do these photocopies exist
13 from the beginning, when the original documents were
15 A. Well, what is significant for me is that all
16 documents we receive, which are handed into us, when
17 they -- we receive a list, a list with the registered
18 documents, when we check that, we see in the list what
19 are the originals, but under certain numbers you have
20 also photocopies, and we accept this as something which
21 is invaluable to us.
22 Later on, we will be trying to find the
23 original, but we accept the photocopy in order to be --
24 help us in finding the original. I cannot say where
25 the original is.
1 Q. However, as you have answered my colleague,
2 as long as you don't have the -- find the original, you
3 and the Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina take this copy in
4 your archive and you rely on it, in view of all the
5 important characteristics it has, and you consider it
6 an authentic document?
7 A. In our Army, yes. Although, I have no
8 responsibility in connection with that.
9 Q. This was a satisfactory answer. Please give
10 me short answers, because you have explained to my
11 colleague the methods of your work, you mentioned that,
12 described that also the last time.
13 Sir, do you know that individual organs,
14 bodies, also army bodies, submit -- ask and issue
15 original documents to those who request it? You have,
16 for example, sent original documents to me and
17 Mr. Karabdic. And I ask you, is it a custom, is it
18 usual to send out original documents, while the bodies
19 retain a copy of the original document which has been
21 A. The rule is that this military procedure goes
22 from the -- the request is made through the -- via the
23 ministry, the command, and then Commander Delic, with
24 his signature, orders me and gives me a command, what
25 to do. We, even if we issue a photocopy, we have to --
1 it must be given back to us.
2 Q. I believe you have not understood me
3 properly. You have answered how you issue a document
4 from the archives. I am not asking you that. We are
5 going back to the document we have been recently
6 discussing. If I had asked Commander Delic to inform
7 me about a fact, do you know that the usual habitual,
8 that they will send me the original document while they
9 will retain a copy of the document?
10 A. We do not issue originals. We send out
12 Q. I am sorry, I don't understand you. I have
13 received originals. I won't discuss this. I have
14 received originals -- I have received the original of
15 the letter.
16 A. Yes, the original letter which I have signed,
17 but the documents in the archive, as a rule, are not
18 issued, but the letter I have sent you, it is a list --
19 contains a list of the documents of the photocopies and
20 photocopies of photocopies.
21 Q. Well, is it possible that General Delic,
22 answering my letter and my request, also, as you have
23 sent me a letter, is it possible that he sent me an
24 original document, an original document which you have
25 in your archive as a copy? Would that be possible?
1 A. Well, you are trying to mix me up, to confuse
3 Q. No. Don't answer.
4 A. I don't give originals to anyone. The letter
5 I have sent to the Tribunal is an original letter with
6 my signature. I don't know what you wanted
7 MS. RESIDOVIC: This is not a relevant question.
8 This document was as a relevant document.
9 And the Court and the Tribunal, I thank you
10 very much for my endeavour in trying to help us. And I
11 have no more questions for the witness, Your Honour.
12 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Thank you very much. I
13 think he is unable to issue it because he hasn't in his
14 archives the original copies. What he has are
15 photocopies, so he cannot satisfy photocopies as
16 authentic. This is their rule. If he had the original
17 copies with him in the archives. These originals do
18 not exist in his archives. Thank you very much.
19 MS. RESIDOVIC: Thank you, Your Honour. He
20 just confirmed that fact you have presented.
21 MR. KUZMANOVIC: Your Honour, the Defence of
22 Mr. Mucic has no questions of this witness.
23 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Thank you very much.
24 MS. McMURREY: Your Honour, the Defence of
25 Esad Landzo has no questions of this witness either.
1 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Any questions for the
3 MS. McHENRY: Yes, very briefly, Your
5 Cross-examined by Ms. McHenry
6 Q. Good afternoon, Mr. Omerkic. How are you?
7 A. Hello. And how are you, madam?
8 Q. Fine, thank you. Sir, when you have
9 documents in your archives, can you tell from what
10 source the document came from; in other words, who gave
11 it to your archives, whether or not it's the fourth
12 corps or the supreme command or some other unit? Can
13 you tell that or not with your documents?
14 A. No, from the document you cannot see. But
15 you have the minutes on the submission of the documents
16 of their handing them in. And it does happen that from
17 the chiefs of staff, from the supreme command, or from
18 the corps, we receive their archives, they hand in the
19 material, archive material. On that occasion we said
20 the minute, we write it down, that the archives -- this
21 is a report where the right archives have been handed
22 in. So on the basis, if one read the acts, one could
23 -- the documents, one could see where they came from,
24 their source.
25 Q. So, in other words, you can't tell from
1 looking at a document who gave it to the archives, but
2 with enough time you could reconstruct who gave it to
3 the archives, by looking at other minutes and such
4 things? Did I understand you correctly?
5 A. Yes, the report on the handing them in. But
6 we could reconstruct it also differently in other ways.
7 Q. Now, with respect to the 102 documents that
8 you were asked to find and could not locate, either
9 originals or copies in your archives, do you have a
10 list of those documents with you?
11 A. I have a list of documents that I have
12 submitted here, 55 originals, they are photocopies, and
13 a list of 10 photocopies of photocopies
14 MS. McHENRY: Maybe if I could just ask if
15 Defence Counsel would --
16 A. I made that list.
17 MS. McHENRY: If Defence Counsel,
18 Mr. Karabdic, could provide me a list after this
19 witness's testimony of the documents that were not able
20 to be located, I think that would --
21 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: You really need them?
22 MS. McHENRY: I think it may help us in the
23 future. It may be relevant. I don't want to interrupt
24 this witness's testimony now. But it might be
25 relevant, and it might also save time in the future,
1 rather than us asking him to look for documents that
2 he's already looked for and determined were -- could
3 not be found in the archives.
4 MR. KARABDIC: We have the request of the
5 authentication of documents which have been submitted
6 in addition to the expert witness of the military
7 area. The other documents -- we have in that report
8 the documents which could not be found, and the
10 MS. McHENRY:
11 Q. Sir, I just have one question about a
12 particular document that you found, and it's number --
13 it's again a document that you found a copy of, not the
14 original. And it's document number 8 in your letter.
15 And it's a report from 6th -- I'm sorry, 6th of
16 December, 1992.
17 A. Sixth of December. Yes.
18 Q. Now, could you just find your copy of that
19 for me.
20 A. I have my photocopy. I have photocopied it,
21 the documents for myself prior to coming to The Hague.
22 Q. And that document refers to certain
23 attachments which are integral parts of the report.
24 Can you tell me now, are you in a position to tell me
25 whether or not the copy in your archives has all the
1 attachments or not?
2 A. Mainly, yes. In general, yes.
3 Q. Okay.
4 A. Although, one of the documents with many
5 attachments, I took just the first page and the last
6 page with the seal, but in our register we have the
7 report and as well as all the attachments.
8 Q. And would you agree, when you go back you can
9 look and see whether or not your archives has all the
10 attachments, in particular to this particular document
11 that I am referring to, this 6th of December report?
12 Could you do that for me, please, sir?
13 A. Yes, I believe that we have it.
14 Q. Thank you.
15 A. But you have to turn to our General, and it
16 will be my pleasure.
17 Q. Thank you, sir. And, in fact, it's correct
18 that very recently you were asked to find, locate some
19 other documents in your archives, but you did not have
20 sufficient time and have indicated you will do that
21 after the appropriate steps have been taken and you
22 have time to look for additional documents. Is that
24 A. I know. I said everything that I had
25 received the orders, I will do. And I am at your
1 disposal to the maximum, of course. But I have to
2 receive the order, which I then execute. I don't know
3 what you really mean by that. Do you want to say that
4 I didn't do what I promised I would do?
5 Q. Absolutely not, sir. I did not mean to
6 suggest that for one minute.
7 JUDGE JAN: You don't have to be angry. You
8 don't have to be angry.
9 A. I am not angry. The Prosecutor is a
10 distinguished lady.
11 MS. McHENRY:
12 Q. And, in fact, sir, I will represent to you
13 that with respect to any additional request we have, I
14 will try to work with Defence Counsel to see if we can
15 agree that the documents can be admitted without making
16 you come back again.
17 And thank you, sir, I have no further
18 questions. Thank you.
19 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Thank you very much.
20 Any re-examination?
21 MR. KARABDIC: No.
22 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Thank you very much for
23 your appearance. Okay. You are discharged now.
24 A. Thank you very much, Your Honours.
25 (The witness withdrew)
1 MR. MORAN: Good afternoon, Your Honours.
2 Our next witness will be Mr. Demic.
3 Your Honour, while he is being brought in,
4 I was going through some documents and there was
5 something I forgot to do back in February, and I would
6 like to do it now.
7 As the court will recall, when Mr. Gow was on
8 the stand, I showed him several documents from the
9 Security Council. And by just pure forgetfulness on my
10 part I forgot to introduce D16/3, which is a letter
11 from the Security Council president; 17/3, which is a
12 letter from the permanent representative of Canada to
13 the president of the Security Council; B18/3, which is
14 a letter of the -- another letter from the permanent
15 representative of Canada; and D19/3, which is a letter
16 from the deputy permanent representative of the United
17 States to the president, Security Council.
18 Just so the record would be complete, I move
19 to introduce those at this time.
20 (The witness entered court)
21 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Let him take the oath.
22 THE WITNESS: I solemnly declare that I will
23 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the
25 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Take your seat, please.
1 WITNESS: Bajram Demic
2 MR. MORAN: Your Honour, those documents, are
3 they admitted?
4 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: I have not even seen
6 MR. MORAN: Your Honour, they are in the
7 record. We'll do it at another time that may be more
8 convenient to the court.
9 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: I think so.
10 JUDGE JAN: Can't we take judicial notice of
11 those documents?
12 MR. MORAN: Your Honour, I think you can. I
13 don't think there is any reason to introduce them into
15 JUDGE JAN: What's the position of the
16 Prosecutor, with regard to resolution of the Security
18 MR. MORAN: Your Honour --
19 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: My position has been
20 very clear, public documents, documents which establish
21 facts of those nature can be taken judicial notice of,
22 and you don't have to tender them.
23 MR. MORAN: I think the court is correct. I
24 just had introduced some others and tendered them and
25 they were admitted into evidence, and I was going
1 through the exhibit list and there was great big
2 boldface "not tendered," and I thought that I ought to
3 be consistent.
4 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: You can send them onto
5 the Trial Chamber.
6 MR. MORAN: Thank you very much, Judge,
7 that's all I need.
8 Examined by Mr. Moran
9 Q. Good afternoon, Mr. Demic.
10 A. Good afternoon.
11 Q. My name is Tom Moran and, if you will give me
12 a second, I am hearing Bosnian. There we go.
13 JUDGE JAN: I thought you must have learnt
14 Bosnian by now.
15 MR. MORAN: Your Honour, I am here to tell
16 you that most of the Bosnians have learned more English
17 than I have Bosnian.
18 JUDGE JAN: Ms. McMurrey is very good at it.
19 MR. MORAN: Your Honour, she spent more time
20 in Konjic than I have.
21 Q. Mr. Demic would you please introduce yourself
22 to the Trial Chamber. Tell us how you are employed.
23 A. Bajram Demic. I was born on the 9th of
24 April, 1959 in Rozaje. I work at the radio television
25 of Bosnia-Herzegovina.
1 Q. Are you a married man, sir?
2 A. Yes, I am.
3 Q. And do you have any children?
4 A. Yes, I do.
5 Q. How many?
6 A. I'm a father of five -- four.
7 Q. That's three more than I have, and I hope
8 that you have fewer headaches than I do.
9 Sir, how long have you been employed by the
10 television -- radio television of Bosnia-Herzegovina?
11 A. I reported on my duty in 1992 on the 9th of
12 May for the first time in the radio television of
14 Q. Sir --
15 A. The radio of Bosnia-Herzegovina.
16 Q. Sir, did you work for any other television
17 stations or newspapers prior to going to work for the
18 radio of Bosnia-Herzegovina?
19 A. Yes, I worked in Vecernji List, which is a
20 daily newspaper from Zagreb. I was a correspondent of
21 Monitor, which is an independent weekly from Titograd
22 from Montenegro, and I worked for other independent
23 newspapers. And I also worked for HTV nine months
24 before the war broke out in Bosnia-Herzegovina.
25 Q. Sir, what is HTV?
1 A. It's a Croatian radio television. Now they
2 call it HRT.
3 Q. Sir, at some point during the summer of 1992,
4 were you -- did you see a report on television from
5 Pale concerning some allegations of mistreatment of
6 Serbs held in Bradina?
7 A. No, I heard about this report, I didn't see
9 Q. And, basically, what was the report? What
10 did it say?
11 JUDGE JAN: That's hearsay.
12 MR. MORAN: Yes, Your Honour, well, it's
13 going to show the motive for why he did the events that
14 he's going to be the personal witness for. And if the
15 Court likes, I'll withdraw the question and just say
16 based on that, did you do something? I thought that
17 the Trial Chamber might --
18 JUDGE JAN: From what he heard, may have
19 heard from someone else. And though --
20 THE WITNESS: Could I say something now?
21 There seems to be a misunderstanding. When I said that
22 I heard about it, I heard it in the radio, I didn't see
23 it on television. That means I heard it in radio Pale.
24 MR. MORAN:
25 Q. And, sir, basically, and just very short,
1 what was that report about? In no great detail, just
2 in general.
3 A. In this report, it was stated that the
4 detainees in Celebici are being kept hungry and that
5 they live in abnormal conditions and other things
6 similar to that.
7 Q. And based on that report, did you and a
8 colleague do anything?
9 A. Well, knowing from before, about the
10 propaganda, the mentioned station from Pale, we did not
11 feel any special need to deny this. However, as
12 journalists, we had this idea that we might, maybe,
13 take a look at this prison that was being mentioned to
14 make a report, a story.
15 Q. And, by the way, who was your colleague?
16 A. My colleague, her name was Jadranka
18 Q. And did you and your colleague go to the camp
19 at Celebici?
20 A. First we talked about doing this, but we
21 didn't have any particular plan or time to go there.
22 And since there was not enough gas at the time, we had
23 a car. I don't know if this is important or not, which
24 was of the make of Wartburg, which is an East German
25 make. And on this summer day, we bought some gas in
1 Jablanica because it could be bought there. And on our
2 return, since we had a camera on our backseat, we
3 decided to try our luck and to see whether we can make
4 this story. And even if we don't manage to make one,
5 we would not have been too disappointed. Earlier we
6 had heard that it wasn't really a big problem to enter
7 this camp and that other international organisations
8 could enter this camp and that it was not a big deal.
9 Q. Did you call ahead to the camp or to anyone
10 else to give any advance notice of your visit or did
11 you just decide relatively on the spur of the moment,
12 "Let's go to the camp," and then drove directly to the
13 camp? Or, whatever, or if it was something different,
14 whatever it was.
15 A. I think we made our decision at around
16 Ostrozac, which is a town before Celebici. We went to
17 the gate of this prison. I left the car because the
18 gate was closed. And there I saw from that small house
19 which was there, a young man. And I tried to explain
20 to him what our intentions were and I think he was a
21 little bit unprepared for that. He said politely that
22 we should wait here, as if he was looking for somebody
23 that he could consult with.
24 Q. Yes, sir, when you say the small house, if
25 you look in front of you, there is a model. In fact,
1 you can get up and walk around and take a look at it.
2 And see if you can locate that small house. And on the
3 top of it, there should be a letter. And if you'd tell
4 us what letter it is. Like I say, you can get up and
5 walk around over there, if you want to, whatever makes
6 it easier for you to see.
7 A. It was this house.
8 Q. The one with the "A" on top of it?
9 A. Just a second, let me have a better look.
10 Yes, this facility here. It was the administrative
12 Q. And, sir, the one with the little A, is that
13 the one where the guard was?
14 A. It was a kiosk.
15 Q. And when the guard left, what did he tell
17 A. That we should wait for a moment. And then
18 at this other building, because I was waiting at that
19 gate, I saw in front of it a man who was washing a car
20 and the make was a Fiat. It's a very small car, I
21 don't know if you know about it. It's made by Fiat.
22 And this car was quite old, I remember that. And I
23 said it was a rock car. We were joking about this car
24 for a while. And these people talked to each other for
25 a while. Then they came up to me. And he again said
1 that I should wait for a while. This man was older
2 than this young guy that I saw.
3 Q. The older man, you say the young man brought
4 an older man with him; is that what happened?
5 A. Yes, that's what happened.
6 Q. And the older man said wait for a few more
7 minutes? Wait here?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Do you know the name of that older man?
10 A. No. At that moment I did not know his name.
11 Q. Do you know him or do you see him in the
13 A. In the grey sweater.
14 Q. Your Honour, if the record can reflect, he's
15 identified my client.
16 What happened next, sir?
17 A. Soon after that, we entered. We parked our
18 car, not by the building, but on the right from the
19 gate. I took a camera and we went towards the
20 administrative building. I was waiting there for a
21 while and then we talked for a while. After that, a
22 man came out and he said his name was Pavo. And I had
23 never seen him before that day.
24 Q. And what did Pavo tell you, sir?
25 A. He asked me what we wanted. We repeated what
1 we had already said earlier. He said, you can take,
2 film everything. And he, I think he joked that he
3 didn't want us to make any film of him because he was
4 not very photogenic, the camera didn't like him. And
5 we laughed, so that the atmosphere was very relaxed.
6 Q. And did Pavo tell you what his job was at the
8 A. No, not at that point, but we could have
9 guessed what his job was. That he was one of the
10 people who was kind of in charge and he gave us
11 permission to film that area.
12 Q. And what did you and your colleague do next?
13 A. Well, he did not want to be present. He left
14 to that other building. He left us outside. Some
15 other younger people came, some soldiers. And we said
16 that we wanted, I personally, actually, asked for it,
17 to film Zara, who was a prisoner that I knew was
19 Q. Zara who?
20 A. Because he was a guy who had a cafe in
21 Bradina, which still exists, this facility still
22 exists. And everybody knew --
23 Q. I'm sorry, what was Zara's full name? Do you
24 know his full name?
25 A. The cafe was called Zara, at Zara's, and
1 everybody called him by that name, he was the only
2 person by that name.
3 Q. Could be, if you don't know, you don't know?
4 A. Yes, yes, yes, I know him. He was a big
5 guy. And before the war I knew him and also his
6 brother. And just before the war, I gave his brother
7 -- I lent a book to his brother, which is called
8 "Knife" by Vuk Draskovic.
9 Q. You said you asked to see Zara, what happened
11 A. One of the men said that he was somewhere
12 around. And that he shouted loudly and they called him
13 two or three times and then he showed up in some
14 T-shirt and he had jeans on.
15 Q. Sir, were there a lot of people wandering
16 around inside the camp?
17 A. Yes, there were. When I asked to see his
18 brother, whom I also knew, they also called him and he
19 came behind a facility where he was doing something,
20 cleaning something. There were some people also who
21 were sitting below a roof because it was quite hot on
22 that day and there was more than one person sitting
24 Q. Sir, do you know if these people were inmates
25 or guards or do you have any way of telling? Were they
1 wearing military uniforms?
2 A. They were wearing civilian clothes. And
3 there were also others. But I knew for sure that those
4 who were cleaning the compound that they were inmates.
5 Q. And, sir, did you get a good look at these
7 A. Yes, I looked at them for a while.
8 Q. Did they look like they had been starved or
10 A. Absolutely not.
11 Q. Okay, sir, after you got -- after you found
12 your friend Zara, did you have a conversation with
14 A. He's not my friend. He's an acquaintance and
15 I was friends with his brother. But he was interesting
16 to me because I knew, and many others knew, that he was
17 rich. And that he was in some kind, in some way a
18 logistics person and that he was procuring weapons for
19 the Serb population in Bradina. That was no secret.
20 And I wanted to see how such a person would be treated
21 who was called the duke, Vojvoda. And then I could
22 have guessed how others were treated if I could see how
23 the main guy was treated. That would have been some
24 kind of a measurement, how these people were treated in
1 Q. Sir, did you talk to him? Have a
2 conversation with him?
3 A. Yes, for a very short period. I asked him
4 what he was doing there and he told me -- and I am not
5 quite sure that he was colonel or lieutenant colonel, I
6 am not quite sure, who was a commanding officer of the
7 former JNA. He went to see off his family to safety by
8 a helicopter from a heliodrome which existed in Bradina
9 on a road in front of the former barracks. And he did
10 not come back. And then they were seized by panic
11 because the commander had not returned, the colonel or
12 the lieutenant colonel. And, actually, they were
13 supposed to attack on the 27th of May in the direction
14 of Tarcin and Pazaric to join with the Serbs from
16 Q. Who was this lieutenant colonel?
17 A. He was a lieutenant colonel, an officer of
18 the former Yugoslav National Army.
19 Q. Mr. Mrkajic or was that somebody else?
20 A. No, no, no.
21 Q. Celebici?
22 A. No. This officer did not go back. He left
23 by a helicopter of the former JNA in order to bring his
24 family to safety. And then he never returned to
25 command this unit which was located in Bradina.
1 Q. Sir, let's focus on the camp and your time in
2 the camp if we could. Because, frankly, the four
3 defendants here are charged -- occurred in the camp.
4 A. You asked me about this.
5 Q. Okay, that's fine. When you were talking to
6 Mr. Mrkajic, was anyone with you? Was Pavo with you or
7 was Mr. Delic with you? Was there anyone there
8 monitoring the conversation?
9 A. No.
10 Q. And I take it that when you say you had a
11 conversation, you were closer than you and I are,
12 you're just two people standing there having a
14 A. Yes, my colleague, Jadranka Milosevic, was
15 also there.
16 Q. So it was two journalists and Mr. Mrkajic?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. And did he complain to you about being beaten
19 or other prisoners being beaten?
20 A. Absolutely not.
21 Q. Did he complain to you about being starved?
22 A. No, absolutely not. He complained more
23 because this officer left.
24 Q. So he was more unhappy because someone that
25 he thought was a friend of his, deserted from Bradina
1 before the battle, rather than about conditions in the
3 A. Yes, he was sorry or he saw that as treason.
4 Q. Okay. Did you film your interview with
6 A. Yes, yes, I did.
7 Q. Does that film still exist?
8 A. It does.
9 Q. Now, I didn't ask you to bring it, did you?
10 But you could bring it if the Prosecutor asked you or
11 someone asked you, you could provide that film?
12 A. Any time.
13 Q. Okay. Did Zara mention anything to you about
14 people being allowed to visit the camp and bring the
15 prisoners anything?
16 A. While we were talking, and I think this was
17 also being taped, he said that they had visitation
18 rights and that three times food was brought to them.
19 I remember that my colleague, after he had said this,
20 reacted, I would say, unprofessionally. And she said
21 that they have a better time than the soldiers of the
22 army in the -- on the frontlines. I think that he
23 might not have heard very well what she said and then
24 he asked a question about that. And she was obviously
25 upset about this, my colleague, Milosevic. And I
1 stopped the filming. I think that in a way I also
2 understood what she was coming from because she knew,
3 just as I did, that her brother in Sarajevo, in the
4 beseeched Sarajevo, and that he basically had nothing
5 to eat.
6 Q. Yes, sir, while you were there, did you have
7 occasion to talk to a man named Branko Cecez?
8 A. Yes, we didn't ask for this man by name. But
9 since there were some talks about starving the inmates,
10 we asked for somebody who was distributing or cooking
11 the food. And they said, actually they called this man
12 and he showed up in some shirt and he made a statement
13 and I filmed it and my colleague interviewed him, asked
14 him what it was like, asked him about some conditions.
15 He gave this statement and I think this statement has
16 also been preserved.
17 Q. And do you know whether he was a prisoner or
18 whether he was a guard or a staff member?
19 A. No, he was a prisoner.
20 Q. And what did he tell you about the food?
21 A. He said that it was mostly satisfactory. As
22 far as I remember, he said that what is remained and
23 not distributed is given to those people who have
24 larger appetites. It's the so-called second helping.
25 Q. And was there anyone around besides you and
1 your colleague while this part of the interview was
2 going on? Were there any guards or staff members
4 A. No, they were standing on the side. And some
5 prisoners also came and guards. So they were all
6 mixed. We, at the same time, also filmed the
7 infirmary, the clinic, so to speak, which was there in
8 the facility across this red, dark red building.
9 That's facility C, building C.
10 Q. Okay, while you were -- tell us about the
11 filming at the infirmary.
12 A. They showed me where the infirmary was. It
13 was very hot. I'd opened the door. I wasn't sure, but
14 I think there was about 10 beds in there. And on these
15 beds, there were patients lying. In the middle of this
16 room, there were some -- there was a table with
17 wheels. And on this table were some medicines and some
18 infusion equipment, something for infusion. I greeted
19 to them and I said that I would be filming them. They
20 greeted me back and I started filming them. I am not a
21 professional reporter and I was filming with the
22 so-called schwenk, the entire room.
23 Q. Just one second, sir. The translation I
24 heard was you were not a professional reporter and I am
25 informed that what you said is you were not a
1 professional photographer, which is it? Are you a
2 professional reporter?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Are you a professional photographer?
5 A. No, absolutely not. Before the war, I did
6 some work with the VHS camera. And during the war,
7 since our cameraman was in detention in Hadzici for
8 about two months, I, as a male person, accepted to work
9 with the camera and that my colleague can then work as
10 a reporter. And every expert that knows anything about
11 filming will see that in my filming there is a zoom
12 with a broad angle, which a professional cameraman
13 would never do. But those were the times.
14 Q. So basically you were pressed into service to
15 be a photographer because you could handle that big
16 camera better than your colleague who was a small
18 A. Yes, I am a gentleman.
19 Q. Okay, thank you very much, sir. Sir, tell us
20 more about the interviews with the doctors. First, do
21 you remember the doctors names?
22 A. I remember the hefty man, his name was
23 Relja. I don't remember the name of the other man.
24 Q. Did your colleague interview these people
25 while you were filming them?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Was there anyone around, any guards or any
3 staff or any people? Was Pavo around, for instance, or
4 Hazim, or was it just basically the four of you while
5 you were doing this interview?
6 A. I think that on the unedited material, you
7 will see that there was nobody except for the four of
8 us. I am sure you will see also film, images shot at a
9 broader angle.
10 Q. And, sir, do you recall what these two
11 doctors told you during this interview?
12 A. I cannot quote, but I think that maybe I
13 could outline the most characteristic elements.
14 Q. Sure, just do the best you can, sir.
15 A. The first interviewee, I don't remember his
16 name. He gave an imprecise statement. When he, when
17 my colleague asked him, who are the people in the
18 infirmary? He said that in addition to the people who
19 were injured in combat, that there were also people who
20 were imprisoned in the sports facility in Konjic, who
21 were injured. He said it. They were injured by some
22 kind of grenade. And I think it was quite clear of
23 what -- he then again said, well, when Konjic was
24 shelled and we know who shelled Konjic.
25 Q. Okay. And did the other doctor say anything
1 to you, sir?
2 A. Yes, she asked him about the cooperation with
3 the hospitaling of Konjic. And I think it was a very
4 relaxed discussion. Simply because that doctor, and I
5 don't remember his name, he insisted at the end of each
6 question, when answering, he wanted to add always
7 something. And we allowed that. He said that they
8 were prisoners and that now they have been released.
9 That they go home every day and return. And we have
10 agreed about this segment and we then had it in, when
11 edited, it was included. I don't know whether it was
12 all then shown on television.
13 Q. Sir, and after, did you see anyone else at
14 the camp or talk to anyone else after the camp, after
15 you met with the doctors and Zara and Mr. Cecez?
16 A. I also met with Zara's brother, but that was
17 before the filming. And I talked to him on the lawn, a
18 very short talk.
19 Q. And while you were talking to him, did he
20 complain about being beaten or starved or abused?
21 A. No.
22 Q. You said the weather was very hot that day,
23 were people complaining about not having water to drink
24 or anything like that?
25 A. No, no, absolutely not. You could see that
1 somebody was washing, somebody was washing a car and
2 they were watering the lawn. They had a house --
3 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: I think the Trial
4 Chamber will rise for 30 minutes.
5 MR. MORAN: Thank you, Your Honour.
6 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: And come back at five.
7 --- Recess taken at 4.33 p.m.
8 --- On resuming at 5.04 p.m.
9 MR. MORAN: Good afternoon, Your Honours.
10 THE REGISTRAR: I remind you, sir, that you
11 are still under oath.
12 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Please take your seat.
13 MR. MORAN: May it please the court.
14 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Yes, you may proceed,
16 MR. MORAN: Thank you, Your Honour.
17 Q. Good afternoon, again. Sir, about how long
18 in total was your visit in the Celebici camp?
19 A. About half an hour, maybe approximately 40
20 minutes, but I doubt it.
21 Q. While you were there, did you have occasion
22 to go into any of the warehouses or hangars that are
23 around the facility there?
24 A. No, nothing except the infirmary.
25 Q. Was that because you didn't want to, or was
1 that because somebody told you you couldn't?
2 A. Well, we received and we were granted more
3 than we expected. We found a more relaxed atmosphere
4 than one could expect for a camp, for a prison, and we
5 also had access to the person we asked for. I think
6 that we satisfied the journalists' code. We asked and,
7 to my judgement, we were asking and talking to one of
8 the main Serbs who rebelled, then a person who was
9 distributing food, the doctors, and the only thing that
10 was left out, which was missing, was the side, the
11 party under whose -- under whose command the prison
13 Q. Okay. So nobody stopped you from going in?
14 You could have gone anywhere you wanted to in the camp?
15 A. Absolutely. We were standing there, we were
16 talking to the prisoners, detainees, to the soldiers or
17 the camp guards, who were dressed in civilian, half
18 civilian, half uniform type of apparel. And we saw
19 that they were joking among themselves because probably
20 they knew each other even before the war.
21 Q. Now, when you were going around the camp, did
22 you have an escort from the guards? For instance, in
23 this building, when you go from one place to another,
24 you have a guard escorting you, right?
25 A. No. The guard -- in the first -- we were
1 moving around mainly in the first part of the camp
2 where the prisoners were watering the lawn and the
3 trees. With Zara, I talked to Zara on the lawn behind
4 the infirmary, and we were alone.
5 Q. Sir, about when was this visit to the camp,
7 A. I must say, in view of all the events and the
8 entire war, I really cannot remember exactly the date
9 and the time, but it could be asserted on the basis of
10 the film. It was aired on television. It's been put
11 in archives. Or, if you want to, I know that some
12 three, four or five days later in this camp there was
13 people -- people were under oath, giving their oath,
14 the new soldiers were giving the oath of the Army of
15 Bosnia-Herzegovina. So it was -- we filmed that
16 reportage three or four days earlier.
17 Q. Sir, if I told you that that was -- that
18 ceremony was on August the 16th, would you agree with
19 me that, then, your visit to the camp would have had to
20 have been sometime around August the 10th, August the
21 11th, August the 12th, around then?
22 A. Quite probably, but I think we could see that
23 on the film. I have the film at home.
24 Q. Okay. Sir, also, after you left the camp --
25 well, let me back off. Did you have any contacts with
1 any representatives of the International Committee for
2 the Red Cross?
3 A. Not after that. You mean immediately after
5 Q. No, no, no. At any time during this period.
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. And what did they ask you about, sir?
8 A. They were interested in the Red Cross and the
9 prisoners in the camps, and I helped them as much as I
10 could. They told me that they have visited that camp.
11 Once I told them of the existence of the camp, they
12 told me they visited it. I showed them the refugees,
13 refugees from Eastern Bosnia who lived under open skies
14 in the Igman, on the slopes of Igman and Bjelasnica.
15 And they visited them, they recorded, registered all of
16 this. These refugees couldn't be sheltered in Pazaric
17 and Tarcin, since their people, non-Serbs from Hadzic,
18 were located there after the aggression against
20 Q. Sir, when you talked to the
21 ICRC representatives, did they ask you about how you
22 get into a camp, or did they indicate to you that they
23 had had any problems getting into any camps?
24 A. No. No, they asked -- I told you that they
25 visited that camp even before we did.
1 Q. Okay, sir. Sir, back in October of 1996, do
2 you remember talking to a representative from the
3 Office of the Prosecutor named Sabine Manke?
4 A. I didn't know at the time that she is a
5 Prosecutor. I thought that she was a Prosecutor of the
6 Tribunal in The Hague. She can confirm that. I
7 offered my cooperation. I offered her all of the
8 filmed material. She gave me her visiting card and I
9 gave her my telephone numbers to that visit card. I
10 believe it said on the visiting card that she is a
11 police inspector.
12 Q. Okay, sir. Sir, in your statement to
13 Ms. Manke, you told her that the visit was towards the
14 end of June, didn't you?
15 A. I am not sure that I said that. It's
16 possible that I make a mistake, but not such a big
17 mistake in time.
18 Q. Sir -- so it's possible that when you talked
19 to Ms. Manke, you could have been mistaken about the
20 time of your visit to the camp?
21 A. Yes, I could make a mistake, but not for such
22 a long period of time. Maybe I said July.
23 Q. Okay.
24 A. But you can see it on the film, the dates are
25 printed on the film.
1 Q. Okay. That's fine, sir. I just wanted to
2 let everyone know that you had -- that there was a
3 difference in dates.
4 When you had your interview with Ms. Manke
5 and you gave her the written statement, did you have a
6 lot of time to prepare for that and get your thoughts
7 together and make -- or was it just kind of a sudden
8 thing, while you were willing to cooperate, you didn't
9 have time to check notes? Which was it, sir?
10 A. No, I didn't have the time. Absolutely not.
11 I think I was working in the field as a reporter, I
12 received the message, I went and visited two
13 skyscrapers, which were burned down during the shelling
14 of Sarajevo, and I think that we had this talk on the
15 8th or 10th floor of one of these two skyscrapers. We
16 discussed it in a relaxed atmosphere, and she can
17 confirm that I had no time to prepare myself. And we
18 even joked during this discussion.
19 Q. Okay. But as you sit here today and having
20 thought about it, the best that your memory is, is this
21 visit to the camp was the 10th, 11th, 12th, 13th of
22 August, not June or July; is that fair?
23 A. Well, it would be impossible. June would be
25 Q. Okay, sir. Fine.
1 I thank you very much, Your Honour. I pass
2 the witness.
3 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Thank you very much.
4 Any cross-examinations?
5 Cross-examined by Ms. Residovic
6 Q. Good afternoon, Mr. Demic. I am Edina
7 Residovic, and I am the Defence Counsel of
8 Mr. Delalic.
9 Mr. Demic, we've met before.
10 A. Yes. As I began as a journalist, I knew from
11 the media. But you didn't know me, however.
12 Q. Well, thank you. Sir, during the main
13 examination you said you heard on the radio that they
14 are poorly fed, namely, the Serbs imprisoned in
15 Celebici. On the other hand, is it true that you've
16 heard from our fighters that the conditions under which
17 the prisoners lived are even better than those for our
19 A. On a number of occasions I heard that.
20 Q. Before I continue, Mr. Demic, with questions,
21 which I will be addressing to you, I would only like to
22 ask you whether it's true that your pseudonym is Zvonko
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. But this pseudonym, this Zvonko Maric, you
1 used it as a war reporter from the free territories of
3 A. Yes, even today.
4 Q. That is why you, Mr. Demic, will not be angry
5 if I occasionally address you as Mr. Maric?
6 A. It's all the same to me. Even I don't know
7 -- make the distinction any more.
8 Q. In view of the fact that you have heard from
9 Radio Srna, on the other hand you heard something from
10 our combatants, you -- this all caused a rise of
11 interest in you, and you wanted to confirm the facts?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Is it also true that already at that time you
14 have been convinced a number of times that from the
15 Serb radio, and from the Serb television, certain
16 untruths are being aired on the situation in the area
17 where you were living at the time?
18 A. Well, quite a number of times. After the
19 liberation of Gradina, for example, Radio Srna said the
20 information was -- said -- aired that 5.000 Serbs were
21 detained in a tunnel. I was passing by that tunnel
22 every day, and I knew that there were no Serbs were
23 detained there. And even more drastic, as I see it,
24 ten young soldiers of the former JNA, who were detained
25 in the barracks of Pazaric Krupa, Srna aired, as did
1 Radio Belgrade, that they were hanged in Tarcin in the
2 town square. Tarcin is a village and it has no village
3 square. That's on the first account.
4 Secondly, these young soldiers for a long
5 time were sleeping in the same premises as the soldiers
6 of Bosnia-Herzegovina. Then they were liberated and
7 returned home to their respective homes.
8 Q. Thank you. You have confirmed that we know
9 each other. Is it also true that in June, 1996 you
10 have told the investigator, Mrs. Kreso -- gave a
11 statement concerning this report and the filming of the
12 report in Celebici?
13 A. Yes, that is true.
14 Q. Is it also true that after that -- to me, as
15 the Defence Counsel of Mr. Delalic, you gave me the
16 original, unedited material of the reportage from
18 A. Yes, I gave it to you, as I would to any
19 other official person.
20 Q. Prior to the war, Mr. Demic, you did not know
21 Mr. Delalic?
22 A. No. No, I didn't.
23 Q. Just you got to know him by accident in
24 Konjic, when he stopped to greet his friends and your
25 common friends?
1 A. Yes, that was in front of the cultural house
2 in Konjic, and possibly somebody from the command was
3 there, and maybe the headquarters of certain services.
4 Q. You can also confirm that that was somewhere
5 in the month of June, when you heard from your
6 acquaintances, who were greeted by Mr. Delalic, that he
7 worked in the area of logistics?
8 A. Yes. Yes.
9 Q. Mr. Demic, during the main examination, and
10 let's go back to the reportage in Celebici, you said
11 that the person who introduced himself as Pavo enabled
12 you to shoot that what you wanted to film?
13 A. Yes, without any problems.
14 Q. Since you were accompanied by your colleague,
15 Jadranka Milosevic, is it true that both your colleague
16 and you had an interest -- were interested in asserting
17 and confirming a number of pieces of information,
18 namely, are people starving, the detainees, are they
19 starving, what is the treatment of the most important
20 prisoners, and, thirdly, what was the status and the
21 care for the sick people there? I wanted to ask, were
22 these the main objectives of your visit there?
23 MR. NIEMANN: Your Honour, I am going to ask
24 that Madam Residovic not lead the witness. I know it's
25 not her witness, but it was her witness originally on
1 her witness list. If she wants to obtain the evidence
2 from the witness now because an opportunity presents
3 itself, I certainly don't object to that. But I do
4 object to leading in these circumstances, because,
5 really, it's practically no different to her actually
6 calling the witness herself.
7 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Ask him the normal
8 questions and he will answer.
9 MS. RESIDOVIC: Your Honour, if I err in
10 questions, please make notice of that. I will
11 reformulate -- rephrase the questions. But, of course,
12 we are interested in all witnesses, including the
13 witnesses of the --
14 A. I am a bit embarrassed. Nobody has led me.
15 This is -- I feel a bit offended with this remark.
16 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: I think you didn't
17 understand what he meant by leading questions. You did
18 not understand that. It's not your language. It's not
19 even your profession. We have said things which are
20 related to how counsel should introduce questions. So
21 listen to your counsel carefully and answer questions
22 put to you.
23 MS. RESIDOVIC: Thank you very much, Your
25 Q. Sir, did you want to determine what the state
1 of feeding the prisoners in the camp of Celebici was?
2 A. Well, we wanted to determine the events, but
3 this is also something that any journalist would want
4 to find out.
5 Q. In the examination in chief, Mr. Demic, you
6 mentioned that you, without any problems, entered the
7 barracks. Could you please tell us, at the moment when
8 you were entering the barracks, at the moment when you
9 were arranging what kind of things to shoot, at the
10 moment of the actual shooting and after you had left
11 the barracks, did you at any time in the barracks of
12 Celebici see or meet Mr. Zejnil Delalic?
13 A. No. I can retake my solemn declaration on
15 Q. Did you, Mr. Demic, prior to what you called
16 a sudden decision to visit the Celebici camp, ever talk
17 to Mr. Delalic about your wish to go to this barracks?
18 My question is, is it -- my question is whether it is
19 true that you have never spoken about this to
20 Mr. Delalic?
21 A. I have never spoken to anybody about this
22 specifically. I mentioned the possibility of my visit
23 to the camp to make this story, but, as I mentioned, we
24 were assured that there would be no problems, and I
25 would say this in front of a large number of people,
1 and it was possible that Mr. Delic (sic) was there when
2 we met. Maybe I mentioned it at that time too. I do
3 not exclude that possibility.
4 Q. Mr. Demic, before the interview with these
5 doctors, did you, with them together, sit in some of
6 the rooms of the administrative building?
7 A. No.
8 Q. Did you, before you started your interviews
9 with the doctors and other persons, make any
10 arrangements, what kinds of questions you would be
11 asking of those persons?
12 A. Never.
13 Q. Did you, after you had made the interview, go
14 to the administrative building and sit with anybody
15 there, and, specifically, did you take a seat there
16 with the doctors that you interviewed?
17 A. No. Absolutely not. Particularly, because
18 it was very hot and it was much more convenient to sit
19 not in this building, but in another building which was
20 -- whose doors were open.
21 Q. So, Mr. Demic, you are absolutely positive,
22 you are absolutely certain, and you can confirm that
23 during the entire time of your stay in the compound of
24 the barracks, Celebici, you never met or saw
25 Mr. Delalic?
1 A. Absolutely.
2 Q. Is it true that after you had finished your
3 task that you had given to yourself in the barracks of
4 Celebici, that you left for Konjic?
5 A. Yes. And we were very pleased about what
6 we've done.
7 MS. RESIDOVIC: Before I put some more
8 questions with regard to your travel to Konjic, I would
9 now like to ask the Trial Chamber, since the witness a
10 year and a half ago gave the complete film, the
11 complete tape of this interview to me, and I had given
12 it to the Trial Chamber, I would like the Trial Chamber
13 to allow it to have this -- to have this story shown so
14 that we can see what exactly the interview is like.
15 And I would like for story number 1 to be shown.
16 The translation of the text has been given to
17 the interpreters. Could we please see story number 1.
18 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Is it the same film in
19 which the witness says he has it at home did you say?
20 The witness indicated he left his own copy at home.
21 MS. RESIDOVIC: Yes. This is exactly about
22 this uncut, unedited version of his material. He gave
23 one version to me and I gave another copy of this
24 material to the Prosecutor about a year and a half
25 ago. And the witness has reconfirmed that he gave this
1 tape to me, and I would like this -- for this tape to
2 be shown. This is the original tape that this witness
3 took on the premises of the barracks of Celebici. I
4 would like the technical department to show this
5 story. It is story number 1.
6 (Videotape played)
7 We are here at the entrance of the makeshift
8 health clinic in the prison in Celebici. Here you can
9 see Serb doctors, Mr. Petko Grubac, a
10 neuropsychiatrist, and Relja Mrkajic, an ear, nose,
11 throat specialist.
12 What are you doing here? Well, we happened
13 to be in Bradina during the war activities. My
14 colleague and I were there. He has a house there and I
15 was in my father-in-law's weekend cottage. You are
16 here at this clinic and you treat the prisoners. What
17 is their condition? Well, you saw their condition.
18 Now they are in relatively good condition. We bandage
19 them from time to time. We give them the medicine if
20 it is necessary and that is how we take care for their
21 health. You say you bandage them, what kind of
22 injuries do they have? That is to say, when were those
23 injuries sustained? Well, their injuries were
24 sustained as a consequence of those people being
25 wounded. There are injuries sustained later, while
1 they were in prison in Konjic, were sustained by some
2 kind of grenades. You are here in this hospital, you
3 work with your colleague, how do the prisoners feel now
4 and what kind of injuries did the wounded sustain? The
5 patients here are in a relatively good condition of
6 health. This means that it is satisfactory. The
7 wounded sustained their injuries in the sports hall
8 while fighting and in the shelling of Konjic. Three of
9 them were wounded there. One of them is fine, while
10 the other two are relatively fine. The state of their
11 wounds has improved a lot, compared to when they were
12 brought to us. I think they will be fine in a week or
13 two. You are a doctor here, how come you are a doctor
14 here? Was that requested by the prisoners or was it
15 your own initiative? I do not know if the prisoners
16 requested that or not. However, since the prisoners
17 were there, that is, wounded people and the persons
18 brought in, I was told that it was necessary to phone
19 the hospital where my colleague and I would work. You
20 live here in Konjic, in Celebici, in Ostrozac? I live
21 in Ostrozac. Everyday a car is sent for me. I perform
22 medical check-ups of all prisoners, bandage the wounded
23 and I go home again. How does the hospital in Konjic
24 cooperate? We used to write and we still write daily
25 needs. However, now we will write the needs for
1 several days regarding the medicines and bandage
2 materials. We receive enough bandage materials so the
3 cooperation is very good. Thank you very much. Maybe
4 just to say that we were also prisoners here, we were
5 released just three weeks ago. At the beginning we
6 were prisoners like everyone else and we worked as
7 doctors in this clinic. We were released three weeks
8 ago and now we come to work here as free doctors.
9 Zarko Mrkajic from Bradina. I have a
10 restaurant in Bradina and I am a prisoner of war here.
11 I was arrested two days after fight in Bradina. How
12 are you treated here? They treat us quite okay. The
13 food is good. We have three meals a day. And there's
14 enough food. Are you satisfied with the
15 accommodations? The accommodations are okay. It is
16 satisfying. I can see you have doctors here. The
17 doctors come everyday. Every second day we receive
18 parcels from home with food, fruit, vegetables and
19 similar. So it is better than what the soldiers on the
20 positions have? What do you mean? Well, you have food
21 three times a day and you are delivered food from
22 home? Yes. I do not know what they have there. The
23 same as you have here.
24 Ratko Cecez, from Donje Selo. I was born on
25 the 26th of May in Donje Selo. I was brought here as a
1 prisoner of war. I had been here in the camp. It is
2 nice. As he said, we have three meals a day. I
3 distribute the food. The food is good. There's some
4 extra food that we give to the elderly who can eat
5 more. There's enough bread. The superiors in charge
6 of law and order are nice. We are happy with them.
7 Thank you very much.
8 MR. MORAN: Just so the record is clear, if
9 that has an exhibit number, if we can get it into the
10 record, what exhibit we just saw.
11 THE REGISTRAR: It will be Defence Exhibit --
12 (Not on microphone).
13 MR. O'SULLIVAN: Regarding the transcript, in
14 the LiveNote beginning on page 58, the full text was
15 interpreted, but for some reason it was not typed into
16 the transcript. Could we ensure that the court
17 reporters listen to the audio version after the
18 proceedings and include everything that was translated
19 so that the transcript is complete.
20 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Is there any other
21 questions to ask him?
22 MS. RESIDOVIC: Yes, Your Honours.
23 Q. Mr. Demic, is this the complete tape of your
24 story that you shot in the barracks of Celebici? And
25 during which your colleague, Jadranka Milosevic, led
1 the interview and you were the camera person for these
2 interviews. Do you recognise this as your materials?
3 A. Yes, this is my story and my colleague was
4 interviewing the persons and this is an uncut, unedited
5 version. This is all the material that we had which we
6 used to make the final story. Thank you. You saw the
7 atmosphere in which we worked. You can see the
8 details. The wish of the doctor to say something more
9 because he probably felt that he -- this was important
10 to say to the inmates and he was allowed to and the
11 other guard didn't even ask him where he lived. We
12 didn't even precisely know where they lived -- he said
14 Q. Thank you. Since this witness recognised
15 this film as a film he made himself, and considering
16 the relevancy of this film, I move to admit this
17 exhibit as evidence for the Defence.
18 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Any objection? It's an
20 MS. RESIDOVIC: Thank you very much.
21 Q. Mr. Demic, you said, didn't you, that from
22 Celebici you went towards Konjic? Actually, I would
23 like to rephrase this question. During the year of
24 1992, you were always -- you resided in Pazaric and
1 A. And Igman.
2 Q. So, when from the Celebici barracks you went
3 towards Pazaric, you were supposed to pass through
5 A. Yes, that's correct.
6 Q. It is known to you that at the very entrance
7 of Konjic there is a family house of Mr. Delalic; is
8 that correct?
9 A. I know this more because there was a disco
10 there then because this was the house of Mr. Delalic.
11 Q. You mean a disco, the night-club was there
12 before the war. Is it true, Mr. Demic, that while you
13 were passing by the house of Mr. Delalic, you happened
14 to meet Mr. Delalic there; is that correct?
15 A. Yes, about twenty metres before the gas
16 station, which is on the right side, if you are going
17 from the direction of Jablanica.
18 Q. Is it true that at that time Mr. Delalic,
19 except for greeting you, also gave you the sign to
21 A. (No audible answer)
22 Q. Is it also true, Mr. Demic, that at that time
23 Mr. Delalic told you --
24 JUDGE JAN: The answer has not come on the
25 script. The answer to your last question has not gone
1 on the script.
2 MS. RESIDOVIC:
3 Q. I asked the question if it was correct that
4 at that time Mr. Delalic gave you a sign to stop, what
5 did you respond?
6 A. I said, yes, he did, about 20 metres before a
7 gas station, which was on the right-hand side if you're
8 going from the direction of Jablanica.
9 Q. Is it also correct, Mr. Demic, that at that
10 time, Mr. Delalic informed you that a small celebration
11 was just about to take place of the transfer of the
12 flag with representatives of HOS and he also asked you
13 to film this ceremony?
14 A. Yes, this had to do with the fact that the
15 HOS forces were to become an integral part of the army
16 of the Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina.
17 Q. Did you at that time, Mr. Demic, stop and go
18 into the yard of the house of Mr. Delalic?
19 A. Yes, that's correct.
20 Q. Mr. Demic, in this yard of the house of Mr.
21 Zejnil Delalic, is there a willow which is very well
22 recognisable and it is situated right in the yard?
23 A. Yes, it's behind the house.
24 Q. Before we continue I would like to ask you to
25 wait for the interpretation of my questions so that the
1 questions and the answers are not mixed up. For
2 technical reasons, of course. So you said that this
3 willow was behind the house.
4 Did you at this time, Mr. Demic, inform or
5 did you at this time, Mr. Demic, tell Mr. Delalic that
6 you had just visited the prison in Celebici?
7 A. Yes, immediately after I greeted him and we
8 exchanged some words, I told him that I have another
9 story for today about the visit to the Celebici or the
10 barracks, Celebici.
11 Q. At that time, did you personally come up with
12 the idea to ask Mr. Delalic to say a few words about
13 the first story that you had just finished?
14 A. I explained to him what this was about. And
15 I asked him to do that, but he refused to do so. And
16 he considered that it was more important for him to do
17 what he had suggested to me.
18 Q. Mr. Demic, please, is it true that at that
19 time, Mr. Zejnil Delalic told you, what does that have
20 to do with me? Why are you asking me about these
21 things? Were those the words of Mr. Delalic in the
22 moment when you suggested to Mr. Delalic to make a
24 A. Yes, he said something to that effect. And,
25 later, I think we did not give up and I think we found
1 a compromise. We will do what is important for you,
2 but we also need a segment of a statement to finish the
3 story from Celebici. Because before that we passed by
4 the house of Zvonko Zovko and we would advise anybody
5 if they found them, anybody from the more influential
6 people in Konjic, but we couldn't find his jeep, which
7 was normally parked in front of the house. And this
8 house was just four or five kilometres away from the
9 family house of Mr. Delalic. We saw that there was no
10 jeep, and, therefore, we went on to find somebody else
11 whose statements we could take.
12 Q. If I understood you correctly, Mr. Demic, the
13 fact that you asked Mr. Zejnil Delalic for a statement
14 was simply because you just happened to meet him on
15 your way from Celebici?
16 A. Yes, we were also a little bit short of time
17 because we had to submit our story from a transmitter
18 which was on Bjelasnica, the Mount Bjelasnica. And
19 after the travel, which took about an hour and a half
20 by car, we had to walk for another hour and twenty
21 minutes to submit this material in Sarajevo. And we
22 needed a couple of routine sentences.
23 Q. Do you perhaps remember, Mr. Demic, where Mr.
24 Delalic was standing at the time when you got this
25 statement from him with regard to Celebici?
1 A. Yes, the willow was in the background, it was
3 Q. Since you had just visited the barracks of
4 Celebici, is there a willow in the barracks?
5 A. Well, on this model you can see that there
6 are no willows at Celebici.
7 JUDGE JAN: There's one question I would like
8 to ask you.
9 Examined by Judge Jan:
10 Q. On your way back to Konjic from Celebici, you
11 must have met a number of persons, why ask Delalic
12 alone to make a statement?
13 A. I did not understand the question. We were
14 driving by car.
15 Q. You must have seen a number of persons on the
16 way back?
17 A. Yes, we were driving and we couldn't meet
18 people who were in cars also. And if --
19 Q. Why ask Delalic alone to make a statement?
20 A. I came to the gate and he waved to me and
21 this was where our first discussion took place and our
22 intent was to maybe ask the commander.
23 Q. Why ask Delalic to make a statement? Did you
24 think that he has anything to do with Celebici?
25 A. I knew that he had nothing to do with
1 Celebici, but I also knew that he was -- he's a
2 logistics person, so he might have procured food, which
3 he probably did. And our investigation went to that
4 effect that people were being starved there. And then
5 we also found out from the commander, Ramic, that in
6 the same pot, food for both the fighters, the soldiers,
7 and the inmates was prepared.
8 Q. Delalic had nothing to do with the
9 distribution of food?
10 A. No, absolutely not. I think he would never
11 do such a thing.
12 MS. McMURREY: Your Honour, excuse me, just
13 for assistance of the Court, since you know I am so
14 familiar with the Konjic area. I thought that the
15 Court would like to know that as you're driving from
16 Celebici back into Konjic, the very first house you
17 come to is the house of Zejnil Delalic on the left. So
18 I don't know if that may assist the Court or not, but,
19 logistically, it's the first house.
20 THE WITNESS: That's what I tried to explain,
21 but the distinguished judge didn't let me finish
22 because the distance between Celebici and the house is
23 not big enough, it's only a couple of kilometres.
24 MS. RESIDOVIC:
25 Q. Please, could you now state clearly so that
1 it may be entered into the transcript, is the house of
2 Zejnil Delalic the first house that you come across
3 when you enter the Town of Konjic?
4 A. Absolutely, yes.
5 Q. Let me just reconfirm, you'd simply by chance
6 noticed Mr. Delalic when he was exiting his house when
7 he waved to you and then he asked you to stop?
8 A. Yes, I saw him and his driver.
9 Q. Do you know the name of his driver?
10 A. I think his name is Irfan, I-r-f-a-n.
11 Q. Mr. Demic, could you please tell me whether
12 after this event, let's say this is the first half of
13 August, did you, after this event, ever visit the
14 barracks of Celebici?
15 A. After this story, there was an oath taking,
16 maybe four or five days in Celebici and we also went to
17 Jablanica to get gasoline and then we found out that
18 there was an event taking place and then we dropped
19 by. But this event was being shot by another team.
20 And, therefore, we just had a drink, stayed there for a
21 short while, saw how a couple of people are dressed,
22 the soldiers. And I think it was a very great
24 Q. Mr. Demic, when you say "we," who are you
25 referring to?
1 A. I am referring to myself and Jadranka
3 Q. Mr. Demic, is it true that you and the
4 reporter, Jadranka Milosevic, in this period, worked
5 together and made numerous stories from the war areas
6 of Hadzici, Pazaric, Igman and Konjic as well?
7 A. Yes, and Trnovo up until Prozor, wherever it
8 was possible. We were very mobile.
9 Q. Since you attended this oath taking at the
10 barracks of Celebici, could you please tell us whether
11 you know if Mr. Delalic as a commander of a tactic
12 group greeted the soldiers who were taking the oath?
13 A. In what capacity, I am not sure, but he did
14 address the soldiers apart from other people who were
16 Q. Is it true, Mr. Demic, that after that time
17 you, in these war conditions, were meeting Mr. Delalic
18 quite often in the area of Pazaric, Taracin, Ormanje,
19 Igman, on the battle lines for the lifting of the
20 blockade of Sarajevo?
21 A. Yes, quite often.
22 Q. Mr. Demic, did you film an interview with Mr.
23 Delalic as the commander of the Tactical Group No. 1?
24 A. I think it was in Ormanje during the
25 preparations for battle action. And I think that in
1 that zone there was quite a lot of activity going on in
2 that area of Ormanje.
3 Q. Do you know, Mr. Demic, whether the battle
4 lines of the Tactical Group 1, commanded by Mr.
5 Delalic, were in close proximity to the lines of HVO?
6 A. Well, this was a triangle. The Serbs were in
7 Ostrik. That is an elevation which was previously held
8 by HVO. I don't know what the agreement was, but I
9 believe that the HVO ceded that hill to the Serb
10 rebels and they set up a Defence line lower down along
11 Lepenica. While the armed forces of Bosnia-Herzegovina
12 held the lines on Koscan, an elevation below Ostrozac.
13 Q. Mr. Demic, during the interview you have
14 filmed with Mr. Delalic in Ormanje, did Mr. Delalic
15 indicate certain problems which existed in connection
16 with HVO?
17 A. Yes, this applied particularly to HVO in
18 Kiseljak and Kresevo, which was a specific situation
19 throughout the war, in fact. This was a contact line
20 between Kobiljaca and the HVO and the rebel Serbs.
21 Q. I apologise to the witness and to the trial
22 here. Here we hear "Ostrozac", the witness spoke about
23 Mount Ostrik, between Pasaric and Kiseljak. I am
24 drawing your attention to that for the minutes and
25 correction should be introduced, Ostrik. I will have
1 other questions for the witness. I don't know whether
2 this is the correct time, Your Honour, to raise it or
3 shall we adjourn now? Whatever Your Honour says.
4 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Since you have quite a
5 number of questions more, we shall adjourn until
6 tomorrow morning at 10:00 a.m. The Trial Chamber will
7 now rise.
8 MS. RESIDOVIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
9 MR. NIEMANN: Before we do rise, might I
10 indicate that I will no longer be available here
11 tomorrow and Ms. McHenry will take over for me. I will
12 be returning the Hague in August.
13 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Thank you very much.
14 --- Whereupon proceedings adjourned at
15 6.00 p.m., to be reconvened on the
16 2nd day of July, 1998, at 10.00 a.m.