Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 13831

1 Tuesday, 7th July, 1998

2 --- Upon commencing at 10.18 a.m.

3 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Good morning, ladies and

4 gentlemen. Welcome to your new courtroom. But we are

5 likely to be here for just a fortnight. So we'll

6 return to our familiar old place. May we have the

7 appearances, please.

8 MS. McHENRY: Good morning, Your Honour,

9 Teresa McHenry for the Prosecution appearing with Mr.

10 George Huber, who is just out of the courtroom for a

11 few seconds. Thank you.

12 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: May we have appearances

13 for the Defence, please.

14 MS. RESIDOVIC: Good morning, Your Honour. I

15 am Edina Residovic, Defence Counsel for Mr. Zejnil

16 Delalic. Mr. Delalic is also represented by my

17 colleague, Mr. Eugene O'Sullivan, professor from

18 Canada.

19 MR. DURIC: God morning, my name is Niko

20 Duric, attorney from Zagreb, Croatia representing

21 Mr. Mucic --

22 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: You may continue,

23 please.

24 MR. DURIC: My name is Niko Duric, attorney

25 at law from Zagreb, Croatian and I represent

Page 13832

1 Mr. Zdravko Mucic. Fortunately, my colleagues, Mr.

2 Olujic and

3 Mr. Kuzmanovic are out of town, and they should be back

4 at the end of this week. Thank you.

5 MR. KARABDIC: Good morning, Your Honours, I

6 am Salih Karabdic, attorney from Sarajevo, Defence

7 Counsel for Mr. Hazim Delic along with my colleague,

8 Thomas Moran, attorney from Houston, Texas. Thank

9 you.

10 MS. McMURREY: Good morning, Your Honours. I

11 am Cynthia McMurrey and along with my colleague,

12 Ms. Nancy Boler, we represent Mr. Esad Landzo.

13 Ms. Boler is temporarily absent. She will be present

14 in just a moment. I would also like to say that we

15 have only one set of earphones here. So I think that

16 would be a problem coming up during the session. Thank

17 you.

18 MS. McHENRY: Your Honour, maybe I just can't

19 see him, but I am just wondering if Mr. Delalic is

20 here, and if not, maybe the record should reflect

21 something about that in the reasons, just for the

22 future.

23 MS. RESIDOVIC: Your Honours, as the last

24 time, after the appearances, I was going to get up and

25 say that my client is still not feeling very well. He

Page 13833

1 has an additional examination today. I believe that

2 you may have received an official notice of that from

3 the detention unit. I have talked to Mr. Delalic this

4 morning, and he gave me instructions that we can

5 continue without his presence. Thank you very much,

6 Your Honours.

7 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: In things of this

8 nature, don't you think, as counsel, you needed a

9 medical certificate to satisfy that he is unable to

10 come, and that he might come when he is fit. Because

11 we have taken -- it should not continue for too long.

12 MS. RESIDOVIC: Your Honour, as far as I --

13 my understanding is, that he is feeling better. We

14 believe that after today's examination he will rejoin

15 the trial. He was examined on Thursday. We have his

16 finding. We also have faxed our request for an urgent

17 examination, based on the pains that Mr. Delalic has

18 suffered. Based on this fax, he has been re-examined

19 yesterday and today. We will submit the findings that

20 are made today. But we believe that he will be able to

21 rejoin us tomorrow. Thank you.

22 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Well I think we expect

23 him to rejoin tomorrow morning. Mr. Karabdic, I think

24 we'll start with your witness today, this morning.

25 MR. MORAN: Our first witness will be

Page 13834

1 Dr. Buturovic.

2 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Call the witness,

3 please.

4 MR. MORAN: Your Honour, I think I suddenly

5 found a courtroom that is smarter than I am with all

6 the electronic equipment. It may take me a minute to

7 figure out what I am doing.

8 Your honours, just for the Court's planning,

9 this witness, from our standpoint, will be very brief,

10 short, and the next witness should not be excessively

11 long either.

12 (The witness entered court)

13 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: The witness take the

14 oath, please.

15 THE WITNESS: May I ask something of the

16 Trial Chamber, please?

17 MR. MORAN: Sure.

18 THE WITNESS: I have been subpoenaed here and

19 as a person who feels offended by this, I would like to

20 know who asked this and what were the reasons, and why

21 am I asked to testify against my own will here?

22 MR. MORAN: Your Honour, if he takes the

23 oath, I think the Trial Chamber might want to explain

24 it, or I will.

25 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Will you kindly take the

Page 13835

1 oath. When you sit down, we will explain to you what

2 is going on.

3 THE WITNESS: I solemnly declare that I will

4 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but

5 truth.

6 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Thank you very much.

7 You may sit down.

8 WITNESS: Sead Buturovic

9 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Now, you have just

10 indicated that you are unwilling to come to testify; is

11 that so?

12 A. No, that is not so.

13 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: You are willing to come,

14 even if no subpoenas were issued for you to come, you

15 could have come despite a subpoena not being issued?

16 A. I must say, just so that you understand a

17 little bit why I am not clear about this situation. I

18 am a physician, a surgeon, a general surgeon.

19 Throughout the war I did my job honestly and in good

20 faith. When the International Criminal Tribunal was

21 established, I was very glad. I have personal reasons

22 for that, because my mother and sister are victims of

23 the genocide. This is why I salute and I support any

24 action which would lead to punishment and sentences of

25 everybody -- anybody who has committed any war crimes.

Page 13836

1 I am a professional. I know what my job is

2 and I know what the rules are in my profession. And

3 let me tell you something, when Ms. Edina Residovic

4 asked me to testify for Mr. Delalic, I accepted that,

5 and the attorney here can testify to that.

6 The statement which I gave at that time, I am

7 ready to confirm in any form anywhere in the world. I

8 have given no other statement. I have -- I'm met by

9 hundreds of people and I don't talk to them. There are

10 written requests. If I receive a written request, can

11 I meet with people and we can discuss about what I

12 could talk about. However, I never received any such

13 request.

14 This attorney that I am referring to, met me

15 casually in the hallway and I did not want to talk to

16 him. I said, "Please put it down in writing and send

17 it to me." This was all informal. I had expected him

18 to -- him to write down what he wanted to do. However,

19 he showed up again, unannounced, and then I told him

20 that I wouldn't want to come here. I did not refuse to

21 come. I wanted to come as an expert witness. I am not

22 a fact witness here. I cannot testify to certain

23 things. I'm a physician.

24 So this is why -- this is where the answer to

25 the question is about my coming here.

Page 13837

1 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Thank you very much. I

2 think we now understand. That was not the impression

3 of your -- of counsel. Could counsel think you were

4 unwilling and, therefore, they have to issue this

5 subpoena to enable you to come? If there are any

6 obstacles in your way, because if there are any

7 obstacles in your way, then a subpoena would help you

8 to overcome them.

9 A. I understand you completely, but please, do

10 understand me as well. I have come here to speak the

11 truth. I will say the truth. I cannot speak about

12 what they do not say, because asking a person to say

13 something that he doesn't know is senseless. I have

14 also given a hypocritical oath and I have helped

15 anyone, regardless of race, colour of skin, for me they

16 were all just sick people or wounded people.

17 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Thank you very much. We

18 can now deal with counsel and answer counsel's

19 questions.

20 Examined by Mr. Moran

21 Q. Doctor, will you state your name for the

22 record?

23 A. I am Dr. Sead Buturovic.

24 Q. And, doctor, how are you employed at the

25 present time?

Page 13838

1 A. I work in the general hospital in Konjic as

2 general surgeon, and I am also director of the

3 hospital.

4 Q. Doctor, tell the Trial Chamber a little bit

5 about your training and experience. Just a few

6 sentences.

7 MS. McHENRY: Your Honours, let me just, if

8 this witness is not being called as an expert witness

9 and Mr. Moran has represented several times that he is

10 not, I would just believe his training and experience

11 is irrelevant.

12 MR. MORAN: Your Honour, I would think that

13 the Trial Chamber might want to know who they are

14 listening to, but whatever makes the Court happy.

15 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: I think it's part of his

16 address, and everything about him. He could indicate

17 his training.


19 Q. Doctor, tell the Trial Chamber about your

20 training and experience.

21 A. As I stated, my name is Sead Buturovic. I am

22 a general surgeon. I graduated from a medical school

23 in Belgrade in 1977. I was third in my class, and then

24 I became a general practitioner in my hometown of

25 Konjic. After that a couple of years later, I went to

Page 13839

1 Travnik to specialise, because there was only in health

2 centre. In '80 I completed the -- specialisation in

3 Sarajevo and then since then I have become the general

4 surgeon. Since, in Konjic there was only health

5 centre, there was no surgery theatre there, and I was

6 ambitious. This is why I went to specialisation. I

7 would go to Sarajevo to the military school, which is

8 now General Hospital, which was a military hospital.

9 And I went there once a week until the war came.

10 When the war started, I was a general surgeon

11 at the health centre in Konjic, and the situation was

12 such as it was. Myself and several of my colleagues

13 organised war surgery as the beginnings of the future

14 war, the hospital, in order to treat the wounded and

15 injured, which had started arriving there, the

16 conditions were very difficult. We had no conditions.

17 We had no instruments, we had no supplies. We had no

18 personnel which would be able to help us, to assist us

19 in this.

20 I was the only surgeon there in the health

21 centre with people who had never seen a war wound

22 before, with people who had never entered the surgery.

23 People who did not know what a wounded person was, what

24 an injured person was, because until the war we would

25 send all serious cases to Mostar or Sarajevo.

Page 13840

1 In those days we could not send any patients

2 there, given what had happened in the beginning of the

3 war, the communication lines had been cut off, and the

4 wounded and the injured kept arriving.

5 Q. Listen just a second. This will go a lot

6 quicker if you will just listen to my questions and

7 answer them. I think we've talked about that.

8 Doctor, do you remember meeting with our

9 investigator, Mr. Karabdic's investigator Nehir

10 Serdarevic?

11 A. Investigator? Which investigator?

12 Q. The investigator that we hired, a dark headed

13 gentleman downstairs in the witness room with you this

14 morning. Do you remember meeting with Nehir?

15 A. Oh, yes. This meeting took place about ten

16 days ago. Not earlier.

17 Q. Do you remember telling Nehir that you did

18 not want to appear here voluntarily because your wife

19 had had a financial dispute with John Ackerman, who had

20 retained her as an investigator? Do you remember

21 telling him that?

22 A. That's really ridiculous. As I said, I am a

23 professional --

24 JUDGE JAN: Questioning the credibility of

25 your own witness?

Page 13841

1 MR. MORAN: Your honour, I am asking the

2 Trial Chamber to let me treat him as a hostile

3 witness.

4 JUDGE JAN: Then why examine him?

5 MR. MORAN: Because, Your Honour, he is the

6 person that can testify about some specific facts

7 involving my client.

8 JUDGE JAN: A hostile witness is one who is

9 not prepared to speak the truth.

10 MR. MORAN: Or who is not -- where I am from,

11 Your Honour --

12 JUDGE JAN: If he gives any answers which you

13 find are not -- do not support your case, then your

14 case is that really he's not speaking the truth.

15 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Well, Mr. Moran, we've

16 not really seen when you declare him a hostile

17 witness.

18 MR. MORAN: Yes, Your Honour. And the

19 practice that I am used to, all that allows me to do is

20 ask leading questions on direct.

21 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: You go ahead and ask

22 until you find that his evidence is quite contrary to

23 what you've called him for, then you can do that. But

24 there is no basis for treating him as a hostile witness

25 at this stage.

Page 13842

1 MR. MORAN: That's fine. Thank you.

2 Q. Doctor, sometime in September, 1996, do you

3 recall examining some records involving my client,

4 Hazim Delic and preparation a report based on the

5 contents of those records?

6 A. I recall that certain -- a gentleman, I

7 believe his name was Brackovic, came to the institution

8 where I work. I believe it could have been in '96.

9 And he was looking for documents, that is a written

10 report on whether Mr. Delic was treated at our

11 institution. By looking at our records, and you have

12 to realise that we had just gone through the war, our

13 archives were incomplete. We were taking more care of

14 patients, more than papers, and so we had some

15 documents. And we found certain things, and I had

16 signed that. We found a document saying that he was

17 treated for a certain condition, and this was submitted

18 to me. And this finding, and this opinion, I signed as

19 a director of the institution where I worked.

20 Q. Doctor, you don't remember Mr. Delic from

21 Adam, do you? You don't remember his case at all?

22 A. Listen, in those days I would receive 30 to

23 40 patients daily. I spent a lot of time in the

24 surgery room. I slept very little. I worked

25 practically 24 hours. For three years I slept in the

Page 13843

1 hospital. I do not recall whether he came there. I

2 could not claim that. It is possible that he came.

3 Q. So, basically, your testimony here is just

4 simply based on your review of the records?

5 A. Exclusively on that.

6 MR. MORAN: Your Honour, with the usher's

7 permission, did you produce that document this morning

8 at my request?

9 Your Honour, this was provided to the

10 Prosecutor about a year ago.

11 THE REGISTRAR: Defence document D106/3.


13 Q. Doctor, that's all you remember about the

14 treatment of Mr. Delic, or that's all you know about.

15 A. Believe me, it's all.

16 JUDGE JAN: There is no English translation.

17 MR. MORAN: No, Your Honours, I provided an

18 English translation. I didn't? I thought I did. It's

19 on the bottom. Take a look.

20 THE REGISTRAR: Oh, yes. Sorry.

21 MR. MORAN: Your Honour, I knew there had to

22 be an English version because the Serbo-Croatian

23 wouldn't do me any good either.

24 Q. And all that you know about this case is that

25 you repaired his right Achilles tendon and that he was

Page 13844

1 hospitalised in your facility from 21 to 25, May,

2 1992. Doctor, you have to say "yes" or "no."

3 A. It's what's stated there. Yes, that is what

4 is stated.

5 Q. That's your signature on that document?

6 A. Yes. But, let me tell you, by reviewing the

7 documents available in our hospital, I signed the

8 document by reviewing the files.

9 Q. Okay. That's fine, doctor. Doctor, in this

10 type of surgery, is it common that a person would be in

11 a plaster cast after the surgery?

12 MS. McHENRY: Objection, Your Honour. We

13 have filed a motion which says, first of all, that

14 there is no notification of special defence. Second of

15 all, this witness has expressly been called as a fact

16 witness. And to ask this witness questions about

17 what's common and what's not common are clearly

18 questions of opinion, based upon his expertise as a

19 doctor, and I believe they are not appropriate.

20 MR. MORAN: Your Honours, I can rephrase it.

21 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Ask your question.

22 MR. MORAN: If it makes Ms. McHenry a little

23 happier.

24 Q. Doctor, when you performed surgery, as

25 outlined in this report, do you put a plaster cast on a

Page 13845

1 patient's leg?

2 A. I can say the following. It is usual that

3 following such injuries a patient is put in a plaster

4 cast, and it is possible that I did put one on.

5 MR. MORAN: Your Honour, I pass the witness.

6 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Thank you very much.

7 Any cross-examination?

8 MS. RESIDOVIC: Your Honours, just a few

9 questions.

10 Cross-examined by Ms. Residovic

11 Q. Good morning, Mr. Buturovic.

12 A. Good morning to you too.

13 Q. You know that I am Edina Residovic, Defence

14 Counsel for Mr. Zejnil Delalic. We have met twice

15 before this trial.

16 A. Yes, that is correct. And this is what I had

17 just pointed out.

18 Q. Dr. Buturovic, is it true that on the basis

19 of the records available in your hospital, you provided

20 to the Defence of Mr. Delalic a document regarding the

21 number of victims starting in May, 1992, for the

22 duration of the war of all people who died in this

23 hospital; is that correct?

24 A. Yes, that is correct.

25 Q. Dr. Buturovic, is it correct, that based on

Page 13846

1 the knowledge of you as a physician who worked honestly

2 throughout this war, that the number which you have in

3 your records at the hospital about the injured and dead

4 is much lower than the actual number of the injured and

5 the dead in all of the town of Konjic?

6 A. I cannot say that. Certainly, we have

7 provided the records of the hospital, which does not

8 dovetail with the records of what happened in the

9 territory of the town. We have just provided the

10 records that were available at the hospital. So

11 whether the number is larger or lower, we do not -- I

12 cannot speak to that.

13 Q. Very well. Doctor, during your examination

14 in chief you said that as early as May you needed to

15 turn a small health centre into a surgical hospital,

16 so-to-speak. Is it true that for a while, maybe up

17 until the mid-1993, you also received the wounded from

18 the wider area, including Tarcin, Mount Igman, Pazaric,

19 and other areas all the way up to Sarajevo?

20 A. Yes. That is correct and we are proud of

21 it. We were the first organised hospital in the area

22 between Sarajevo and Mostar. You can only imagine what

23 this meant. This in an area which was extremely

24 threatened by the war. And let me finish. We took

25 care of everyone between Hrasnica, Koloscolinja (Phon),

Page 13847

1 Tarcin, Pazaric, Konjic, Jablanica, all the way down to

2 Mostar. As I said, until September, 1992, we were the

3 only war hospital in the entire area. And I am just

4 going to give you one piece of information. During the

5 shelling of Hrasnica, and this is just to confirm what

6 I am going to say, the wounded from Hrasnica were taken

7 to the Kosovo Hospital from Sarajevo from UNPROFOR and

8 they were captured and then whatever followed

9 happened. So people from Hrasnica were no longer able

10 to go to Sarajevo to the Kosovo Hospital, but, rather,

11 they used mountain roads over the Mount Bjelasnica to

12 Konjic, and we treated these wounded.

13 It was not only the wounded but also the sick

14 people that we treated from that area.

15 Q. Very well. Doctor, the Trial Chamber has

16 sufficient information on the wartime situation in and

17 around Sarajevo. However, you just pointed out that

18 you were not well prepared for these conditions. You

19 did not have enough medication and supplies. Is it

20 true that the first supply of medications and equipment

21 at that time to your hospital was delivered by

22 Mr. Delalic?

23 A. Yes. I must say that with this donation,

24 with this donated medication and equipment and

25 supplies, we started and I personally delivered this

Page 13848

1 request for all these supplies. And we used it to

2 treat everyone, Muslims, Serbs and Croats, regardless

3 of who they were.

4 Q. Very well, Mr. Buturovic. You do not know

5 anything about the duties of Mr. Delalic throughout

6 this period of time?

7 A. No. I was only a surgeon.

8 MS. RESIDOVIC: Thank you very much. No

9 further questions. I pass the witness.

10 Examined by Mr. Duric

11 Q. Good afternoon, Dr. Buturovic.

12 A. Good afternoon.

13 Q. My name is Niko Duric and I am Defence

14 Counsel of Mr. Zdravko Mucic, who is known also under

15 the name of Pavo. I will only ask you a couple of

16 short questions. Could you please tell me whether you

17 know Mr. Zdravko Mucic?

18 A. I know Zdravko Mucic from childhood because

19 we were born and brought up in the same area of town,

20 and the town is very small, so we all know each other.

21 We knew each other. We were never great friends, but

22 we knew each other since childhood.

23 Q. Could you please give your opinion about

24 Mr. Zdravko Mucic as a person?

25 JUDGE JAN: How is it relevant?

Page 13849

1 MR. DURIC: Thank you very much.


3 cross-examination, please?

4 MS. McMURREY: Yes, Your Honour, I have a few

5 questions. And I want to thank Mr. Moran for getting

6 all this hooked up for me ahead of time.

7 Your Honours, I wanted to ask the Court --

8 the Court's indulgence on a few documents that I have

9 to present to this witness. Our copying machine was

10 broken all weekend and we've had very little access to

11 it, so I have the documents and I have one copy in

12 English. I would like to ask the Court's tolerance to

13 allow me to put it on the ELMO and furnish the Court

14 with copies at the next break. If that would be

15 suitable.

16 JUDGE JAN: Okay.

17 MS. McMURREY: Thank you very much.

18 Cross-examined by Ms. McMurrey

19 Q. Good morning, Dr. Buturovic.

20 A. Good morning.

21 Q. I am Defence Counsel for Esad Landzo. And we

22 have met before, haven't we?

23 A. No, we haven't.

24 Q. You don't remember a night in a restaurant in

25 Konjic when I came up and introduced myself and asked

Page 13850

1 you if I could speak to you?

2 A. If I could just explain this a little bit

3 further. As you can see, I cannot imagine that in this

4 area amongst these distinguished people there are

5 people who in such a way, during a professional dinner

6 with my professional friend, I had no other attention.

7 I was sitting with my friends and this person came up

8 to me, a person that I do not know, and she asked to

9 talk to me. If you can even imagine something like

10 that. If this, Your Honours, is a way in which

11 somebody can now say to me, well, you know me, I spoke

12 to you, then I have nothing further to add.

13 I said at the very beginning, for me there is

14 only a written communication, and nobody has inscripted

15 in their foreheads who they are. Even though I have

16 grown up in Bosnia, I am not accustomed to this kind of

17 communication. And I do not want to communicate with

18 anybody in this way. And I do not want anybody to tell

19 me, well, you know me. We have spoken. And this was

20 just such an unprofessional talk.

21 I do not know this attorney.

22 Q. Dr. Buturovic, I apologise for my informal

23 approach to you, but at that meeting when I asked if I

24 could set up an appointment to meet with you, your

25 response was, "You have to see my wife," wasn't it?

Page 13851

1 A. My wife is an attorney, and the way she

2 represents other people, she can also represent her

3 husband. Why not? I am not familiar with the Rules of

4 Procedure of this Court, as my wife does, because she

5 is an attorney and I am a doctor.

6 Q. The answer could just be yes or no. Was that

7 your response to me, "yes" or "no"?

8 A. Considering the fact that this was an

9 informal approach, for me it was inappropriate for an

10 institution for which you work, I might have said that

11 also.

12 Q. Thank you very much. Anyway, I would like to

13 talk about why you are here today. You are the doctor

14 who performed surgery on the hand of Esad Landzo in

15 1991, aren't you?

16 A. I must say, I might have done that but I

17 might not have done that. I don't know what was

18 happening. I do not know this gentleman. If you

19 showed him to me, I wouldn't know it was him. Please,

20 I do not know my patients by their names. In 1991 we

21 were a health centre and we did not do any complicated

22 operations, because we did not have anaesthesia. We

23 only did work in local anaesthesia. So I cannot give

24 an answer whether I did or did not do this operation.

25 MS. McMURREY: Your Honours, this is one of

Page 13852

1 the documents that I don't have copies in English, but

2 I would like to ask the usher's assistance, if he

3 would, to show the doctor that document. First I'd

4 like to ask him some preliminary questions. This

5 document has not been marked. This document has been

6 in the possession of the Prosecution since 1996, as all

7 of these documents have, Your Honour.

8 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: When did it get -- when

9 did this document get into your own possession?

10 MS. McMURREY: These documents were provided

11 to the Prosecution by Mr. Brackovic in 1996.

12 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: So you must have had it

13 since 1996 or so?

14 MS. McMURREY: Yes, Your Honour, I have had

15 them since 1996. I was counting on being able to make

16 copies of these at the last minute, which I have not

17 been able to. I really apologise to the Court, but the

18 machine was broken all weekend and I had limited access

19 yesterday. So I will provide copies in English. First

20 I'd just like for him to authenticate it, then if he

21 does authenticate it, then I will put this copy on the

22 ELMO, so that everybody can see it and provide copies

23 for the Chamber at our next break.

24 Or, if the Court would so like, I would ask

25 the Court if we could have a break now, just a 30

Page 13853

1 minute break, and I can have all the copies of every

2 document provided for the Court and my

3 cross-examination, I promise, will not take longer than

4 30 minutes, Your Honour.

5 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Thank you. You knew you

6 were coming to Court this morning.

7 MS. McMURREY: Yes, Your Honour, I did know I

8 was coming to Court.

9 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: From 9.00 until the time

10 you came in you did not see fit to make copies of

11 these? But that's not the argument. It should have

12 been done before. Now, you have been in custody of

13 this since 1996, no translations, no copies.

14 MS. McMURREY: Yes, do I have translations.

15 I just don't have the copies made of it, Your Honour,

16 at this moment. I will have them in 30 minutes. I am

17 just asking the Court's tolerance. I really was

18 expecting for Mr. Moran's direct examination to last

19 until the break and at that time I would not have

20 encountered this problem. But I am asking the Court's

21 tolerance just to allow me to proceed under the

22 circumstances as they exist right now.

23 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Show him the

24 Serbo-Croatian copy which we would not even

25 understand.

Page 13854


2 Q. Dr. Buturovic, can you tell me if you

3 recognise this document?

4 A. This is a document. It is the so-called

5 referral, and it is not a medical finding, and this

6 finding is usually written on the back side of this

7 document. It is a referral to a surgeon. It doesn't

8 say which one or where this surgeon is. To dress a

9 wound on the 2nd, 3rd and 4th finger of the right

10 hand. This is a referral of the -- of a doctor, but

11 this is not a document. Please. And we will be

12 waiting in vain if you take a look at this. There is

13 no finding of a surgeon who might have dressed this

14 wound. There is no finding of the surgeon here. And,

15 therefore, I cannot say anything further about this.

16 This is just a referral to a surgeon. Without a

17 record, whether the dress was wounded or not, if this

18 is the only document you have.

19 Q. No Dr. Buturovic, this is not the only

20 document I have. This document is signed by Dr. Husein

21 Alic, and you do know Dr. Alic, don't you?

22 A. Yes, yes, of course. He is my colleague, he

23 is a future surgeon.

24 Q. And this document is dated on February 20th,

25 1991, isn't it?

Page 13855

1 A. Yes. Yes.

2 Q. It's a referral for Mr. Esad Landzo, isn't

3 it?

4 A. Well, you can show it to the Trial Chamber.

5 It probably says so. The name probably is written on

6 the document, but what I am saying is that there is no

7 finding of the surgeon who dressed the wound. If have

8 you that finding, you should show it. You shouldn't be

9 hiding it. You should show that.

10 Q. Well, I will get to that document next. All

11 this is -- when he comes into the hospital, if he needs

12 further surgery, this doctor refers him to the

13 orthopaedic surgeon, who is you; is that correct?

14 A. Yes, probably.

15 Q. And you recognise Dr. Alic's referral to the

16 orthopaedic surgeon at that point, don't you?

17 A. Yes. Yes.

18 MS. McMURREY: Your Honours, I have one copy

19 of the English translation of this. I would like to

20 distribute it to the Court, or, if you prefer, I can

21 put it on the ELMO. He has testified that this is the

22 referral to the only orthopaedic surgeon, who is this

23 doctor at that hospital, and I would like to introduce

24 that into evidence at this point. Here is the English

25 version --

Page 13856

1 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Show the interpreter

2 the copy, which he has -- which is the referral

3 document.

4 MS. McMURREY: Yes, Your Honour, the original

5 and the English interpretation of that document.

6 JUDGE JAN: This document is not in his

7 handwriting.

8 MS. McMURREY: No, it's in Dr. Alic's

9 handwriting.

10 JUDGE JAN: Does he recognise his

11 handwriting?


13 Q. Do you recognise Dr. Alic's handwriting?

14 A. Well, really, I don't know what to say. I

15 cannot claim whether this is the handwriting of

16 Dr. Alic. Are you asking me now -- if you are asking

17 me now whether a patient had a wound in 1991, I can't

18 really answer that. I cannot also answer whether this

19 is or is not the handwriting of Mr. Alic. I cannot

20 answer these questions.

21 JUDGE JAN: The question is do you recognise

22 the handwriting of this doctor?

23 A. It's difficult, you know. It might be. It

24 might be his, but I would not claim it.


Page 13857

1 Q. Dr. Alic was a surgeon that was studying

2 under you, wasn't he?

3 JUDGE JAN: You are not familiar with his

4 handwriting?

5 MS. McMURREY: I will pass this and go to the

6 next document, Your Honour. Thank you. If I could

7 have the assistance of the usher.

8 A. Please, let me just add one more thing. At

9 the request of Mr. Brackovic, as far as I remember,

10 also the same thing as for Mr. Delalic, I gave a -- I

11 confirmed this based on a document that I found, so I

12 am not claiming that he did not have this wound. I

13 gave -- I might have given this finding. So is that

14 it?

15 MS. McMURREY: And I would like to distribute

16 the English version of this copy, please, to the

17 Court.

18 Q. Dr. Buturovic, do you recognise this

19 document?

20 A. This one? This one?

21 Q. Yes.

22 A. Yes, yes. This was given based on the

23 documentation, based on the review of my documentation

24 that I mentioned. Yes.

25 Q. And, Dr. Buturovic, does it bear your

Page 13858

1 signature?

2 A. Yes. Yes, it is.

3 MS. McMURREY: Your Honours, I would like to

4 move that this document be entered into evidence at

5 this point, for defence of Esad Landzo.

6 Q. Can you tell us what this document is,

7 Dr. Buturovic?

8 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Let's hear the

9 Prosecution.

10 MS. McHENRY: Your Honour, we would be

11 objecting to the introduction of this document, in part

12 because it is a document created in 1996 at the request

13 of Defence Counsel for Mr. Landzo having tentative

14 medical opinions. And since this witness is not being

15 called as a medical expert, he is being called as a

16 fact witness, I believe whatever medical opinion he may

17 have given the defence of Mr. Landzo in 1996, as part

18 of the preparation for the defence case, is entirely

19 irrelevant. And we would -- she has explicitly stated

20 on several times that this witness will just be a fact

21 witness.

22 Now, if she wants to get into a few facts, I

23 would not object to that, but this document also has

24 various opinions and speculations of this doctor. In

25 fact, he even says their assumptions, but he can't

Page 13859

1 really say those things. So, it is entirely improper

2 for this document to be admitted, and we would

3 strenuously object.

4 MS. McMURREY: May I respond?

5 JUDGE JAN: I haven't seen this document, but

6 is it based upon the record relating to the years '91,

7 '92?

8 MS. McMURREY: Yes, Your Honour.

9 MS. McHENRY: Your Honour, it's a little --

10 it's a little unclear. There are parts of it that

11 indicate --

12 JUDGE JAN: So you can cross-examine him.

13 You can cross-examine him.

14 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Let's hear her

15 explanation.

16 MS. McHENRY: It is also the case that with

17 respect to certain conclusions, he states, "There are

18 no medical findings or documentation about that." And

19 to the extent he's being called as an expert witness,

20 and he's going to give his opinion, then we are not

21 prepared for cross-examination about those issues. And

22 that's why previously I brought this issue up. And

23 Ms. McMurrey says he was only going to be a fact

24 witness and was not going to be asked for any medical

25 findings or conclusions.

Page 13860

1 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Is he the doctor who

2 treated the accused?

3 MS. McMURREY: Your Honour, he is the doctor

4 who performed the surgery on Esad Landzo in February of

5 1991, and on the English interpretation there, that's

6 the only one can I read --

7 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: That is a fact, that he

8 treated him?

9 MS. McMURREY: That's a fact.

10 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: The question of

11 disability may be one of opinion, which he wouldn't

12 give.

13 MS. McMURREY: He is coming here as a fact

14 witness, and his document here, prepared in '96, says a

15 review of the case history, file number 70-91. So this

16 is a summary of his file of the incisions and the

17 surgery that he performed on Mr. Landzo in 1991. The

18 only thing that might even be construed as an opinion

19 would be the conclusion at the bottom. I am only

20 asking him to testify about the actual procedures that

21 he performed on Mr. Landzo, which continues to keep him

22 a fact witness at this point.

23 MS. McHENRY: I would not object under those

24 circumstances. And I would just ask that Defence

25 Counsel subsequently redact the portions that have to

Page 13861

1 do with his conclusion. But with those caveats, I do

2 not object.

3 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: He can give evidence of

4 what he did to the accused person, and that should be

5 enough.

6 MS. McMURREY: So may I ask the Court to

7 introduce this document into evidence to prove -- as

8 proof of the surgery that was performed on Mr. Landzo

9 in 1991? Okay. Thank you very much.

10 Q. Dr. Buturovic, can you tell us what kind of

11 surgery, based on your -- refreshing your memory, with

12 your case history file, 70-91, can you tell us about

13 the surgery you performed on Mr. Landzo on February

14 21st, 1991, and the injuries that he suffered at that

15 point?

16 A. Please, I told you, I do not remember this

17 operation. I might have done it, or somebody in

18 Sarajevo, maybe it wasn't me at all. I do not know

19 that. If I did, we gave our opinion based on the

20 documentation, which you have enclosed here at the very

21 end. This was a cut, as I said, a cut of the second,

22 third and fourth hand. I am reading this from the

23 documents and I can say as a surgeon this is the sutura

24 (Phon) tendons and the operations here are not very

25 secure. They are not done that often and that even in

Page 13862

1 the best hospitals in the world I do not know what was

2 the finding of this gentleman, because I haven't seen

3 him after that.

4 As I said, we can only guess, but I have not

5 seen anything after the operation. Please, you cannot

6 ask me -- ask for me to give opinions and answer

7 questions about things that I have not seen. As an

8 expert, I can only talk about things that I have seen.

9 And, usually, a surgeon does not really talk about his

10 own findings, but about findings of other people.

11 Therefore, I can talk about findings of other surgeons.

12 Q. Dr. Buturovic, I can't ask you to voice an

13 opinion on findings of other surgeons, because you are

14 not an expert witness in this trial for that purpose.

15 You are only here to testify, and I am asking you to

16 please tell the Court about, you did discuss the type

17 of injury he sustained, and that was his right hand

18 where the second, third and fourth tendons were severed

19 in his hand; is that correct?

20 A. Yes. This copy isn't very clear on this

21 point. Yes, it says the second, third and fourth and

22 fifth finger. Whether it is the fifth finger, I am not

23 clear, but I think it is.

24 Q. And you performed surgery --

25 A. I cannot claim this for sure, because the

Page 13863

1 copy is very bad. The copy is bad. Because it is very

2 important whether it's three or four fingers, but the

3 copy is extremely bad. This copy that I got. Do you

4 have a better copy? Do you have the original of this

5 document which you copied, so that I can see. Because

6 I don't see anything here.

7 Q. Dr. Buturovic, I do not have the original.

8 All I have is the copy that was given to me by Defence

9 Counsel for me.

10 A. Okay. Poor me.

11 Q. And also, can you describe the kind of

12 surgery you performed? Did you attempt to reconnect

13 those tendons?

14 MS. McHENRY: Your Honour, I am going to

15 object. He already stated that he doesn't even know

16 that he did any surgery.

17 MS. McMURREY: Your Honours, I am going to

18 rely on the document presented and signed by

19 Dr. Buturovic as the best evidence as to what kind of

20 injury and what kind of surgery was performed on

21 Mr. Landzo in 1991. And I am going to move forward on

22 this, because I don't believe the doctor is going to

23 assist us in any further way on that.

24 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: (No microphone)

25 MS. McMURREY: I would like to ask -- could I

Page 13864

1 ask Mr. Landzo to stand up in the courtroom, please.

2 Q. Dr. Buturovic, do you recognise this boy at

3 all?

4 A. No, I don't. No.

5 Q. And, Mr. Landzo, could you hold up the injury

6 on your right hand and show Dr. Buturovic.

7 A. Yes. Okay. Yes. It is obvious -- you can

8 obviously see now the results of the injury. There is

9 a contraction, so there is -- the little finger and the

10 finger next to it are cramped, and that is a reflection

11 of his injury. But I do not have to know the patient.

12 Maybe -- I might have operated on him, but now I can

13 claim now that I have seen him, I can see that he did

14 have this injury. The injury happened for sure, and

15 there is -- there are no problems about that. And it

16 has also been treated, and the results are obvious.

17 Q. And you were the only orthopaedic surgeon in

18 the Konjic health centre in 1991, weren't you?

19 A. Yes. Yes.

20 Q. Thank you very much. I would like to -- and

21 that was Defence Exhibit? I'm sorry?

22 THE REGISTRAR: The last one was Defence

23 Exhibit D41/4.

24 MS. McMURREY: And that was admitted into

25 evidence? Yes?

Page 13865


2 MS. McHENRY: Do I understand correctly that

3 the conclusion part of it is not admitted into

4 evidence?

5 THE REGISTRAR: That's correct.

6 MS. McHENRY: Thank you.

7 MS. McMURREY: Thank you very much. I would

8 like the assistance of the usher again to present

9 another document to Dr. Buturovic, and the one English

10 interpretation to the Chamber, please. And for the

11 Prosecution, this is the attempted suicide in 1994,

12 signed by Dr. Buturovic.

13 THE REGISTRAR: Defence Exhibit D42/4.


15 Q. Dr. Buturovic -- I am sorry. You had seen

16 Mr. Landzo on another occasion, didn't you?

17 A. This finding is of my colleague, Radolvic

18 (Phon), who is a psychiatrist in the hospital. She

19 treated the patient and I signed this finding.

20 Q. Okay. I would like to ask, do you recognise

21 this document?

22 A. What do you mean, do I recognise it? Well,

23 this is probably a document from our hospital.

24 Probably, because I signed it.

25 Q. And you do recognise your signature at the

Page 13866

1 bottom of this document, do you not?

2 A. Yes. Yes. Yes, I do.

3 Q. And can you tell me what this document is?

4 A. No, because I am not an expert witness in

5 psychiatry. No, I cannot. I signed this as a

6 director, and not -- the director of the hospital, and

7 as a psychiatrist, you can see in the right -- in the

8 left angle of the -- in the left corner the signature

9 of the psychiatrist, my colleague, Ms. Radolvic. She's

10 the one who did this and not me. I am not the expert

11 witness for that.

12 Q. But Dr. Buturovic, the first paragraph

13 represents medical procedures that were performed on

14 Dr. -- on Mr. Landzo, and the second paragraph

15 represents the findings of the neuropsychiatrist; is

16 that correct?

17 A. Yes, that's correct. There is only one

18 psychiatrist working in our hospital, and this

19 psychiatrist described and concluded this case.

20 Q. Yes, but your conclusions are also

21 represented in the first paragraph. That's why your

22 signature is on this document, isn't it?

23 A. I signed it because I was the director of the

24 institution, and I sign all documents, not just the

25 ones pertaining to Landzo, but all the documents. As

Page 13867

1 you know, in the normal world, there is a director of a

2 Court and this director also signs all the documents.

3 And I do the same thing in my hospital, as a director,

4 this is a document of the hospital. And I signed it as

5 a director of that hospital. And this is -- it is a

6 document of the hospital and not a document of

7 Dr. Buturovic.

8 Q. And as a director of the hospital, you read

9 each document before you sign it, don't you, because

10 this represents the medical procedures that you are

11 representing occurred at that time; is that correct?

12 JUDGE JAN: His position is very clear. He

13 doesn't know personally.

14 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, Your Honour.

15 JUDGE JAN: His position is very clear. He

16 does not know personally. This is a certificate

17 prepared by the psychiatrist, and he signed it in his

18 official capacity as a director, and not because he

19 knew the facts personally, the facts given in the

20 certificate.

21 MS. McMURREY: Your Honour, the first

22 paragraph represents the medical --

23 JUDGE JAN: It was prepared by the

24 psychiatrist who must have prepared the history of this

25 person.

Page 13868

1 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: And whichever way you

2 look at it -- he is here as a fact witness, and there

3 is nothing he can say about this document other than

4 his -- than is he a director of the hospital at the

5 time this certificate was issued.

6 MS. McMURREY: And he --

7 Q. Dr. Buturovic, do you certify -- when you put

8 your signature on a document, that that description of

9 the medical procedures that took place actually

10 happened? Isn't that why you put your signature on

11 there as the manager and surgeon of the hospital?

12 JUDGE JAN: He says he has no personal

13 knowledge he signed it, because the person concerned

14 had signed it, and therefore he signed it as a

15 director.

16 MS. McMURREY: Your Honour, I am just asking,

17 the first paragraph is not part of this

18 neuropsychiatric report. It's what happened at the

19 hospital, the physical procedures that occurred.

20 JUDGE JAN: This report was prepared by the

21 psychiatrist, who also signed it.

22 MS. McMURREY: My conclusion about the report

23 is that she prepared the second paragraph and he

24 prepared the first paragraph.

25 Q. The first paragraph, which represents the

Page 13869

1 medical procedures that Mr. Landzo was put through when

2 he appeared in 1994 in your hospital, that is why you

3 signed this document, so you could say that those

4 medical procedures occurred; isn't that correct?

5 A. Excuse me. I am the director of the

6 hospital. I do not perform all duties and jobs in this

7 hospital. We have over 200 employees at the hospital.

8 We have five departments. What I do is I stand behind

9 the overall work of the hospitals. I do not perform

10 all examinations. There are departments who do that.

11 I am director of the entire hospital, and I sign

12 documents. This document came here and I signed it as

13 a director, not as a person who performed this job --

14 work. I did nothing here. You keep insisting on

15 something, and I do not know why you insist on this.

16 You insist that I know Mr. Landzo. I wouldn't

17 recognise him if I saw him in the street, if you can

18 believe me.

19 I performed no treatment on him. I am just

20 -- I signed this as a director. I signed the

21 document. I did not sign on, on a patient.

22 Q. Dr. Buturovic, you wouldn't sign a document

23 representative of your hospital if it contained lies,

24 would you? It represents the truth, doesn't it?

25 A. Absolutely. Absolutely. No lies.

Page 13870

1 MS. McMURREY: Your Honour, Dr. Buturovic's

2 signature is affixed to this. I believe it's accurate

3 and represents the occurrences of 1994. I would like

4 to introduce this document into evidence at this

5 point.

6 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Evidence of what?

7 MS. McMURREY: As evidence of Mr. Landzo's

8 mental state from the time.

9 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: His mental state. He

10 does -- this does not even discuss his mental state.

11 MS. McMURREY: Your Honour, there can be

12 presumptions drawn from the fact that he attempted to

13 commit suicide in 1994 as a result of his arrest. And

14 I believe it's very relevant to all of the scientific

15 evidence that you are going to be hearing --

16 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: We've had so many of

17 them. So many. Even since he's come here. We've had

18 sufficient evidence of his mental state.

19 MS. McMURREY: Well, then, may I ask that

20 this document be considered authenticated by

21 Dr. Buturovic at this time, and you can reserve

22 deciding whether it should be admitted into evidence

23 because of relevance once you've heard the testimony in

24 the Defence case. And it is marked D4 --

25 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: I see what you're

Page 13871

1 about. You're only saying at a certain time in -- I

2 don't know what date it was then.

3 MS. McMURREY: It's June 13th.


5 MS. McMURREY: Yes, sir.

6 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: There was certain

7 procedures which we read he has attempted suicide.

8 This is what you are trying to say?

9 MS. McMURREY: That is exactly what I am

10 trying to say, Your Honour.

11 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Then these documents

12 should be admitted for that purpose.

13 MS. McMURREY: I would like to have these

14 documents admitted for the purpose of -- that certain

15 procedures occurred and that certain things happened in

16 1994.


18 MS. McMURREY: Yes, Your Honour.

19 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Yes. This suggests that

20 certain things happened and it was queried whether he

21 was attempting suicide. That is all it says. It

22 didn't say more than that.

23 MS. McMURREY: I am not sure, is the document

24 admitted into evidence?

25 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Let's hear the

Page 13872

1 Prosecution's position in it.

2 MS. McHENRY: Your Honour, the Prosecution's

3 position is that this -- that this doctor can state

4 that this is his signature. And we don't object to

5 that. But with respect to the truth of the contents,

6 we would object, because this doctor has stated that he

7 has no information about that.

8 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: All he has stated is as

9 the doctor in charge of the hospital. He is obliged to

10 sign all external documents, documents going out. And

11 in this case the doctor who could be relied upon for

12 the mental state, that is the neuropsychiatrist, has

13 also signed. But if counsel is keen on proving the

14 truth of this document, then he should know what next

15 to do. Because Dr. Buturovic is not saying that the

16 part signed by the neuropsychiatrist is true. He's not

17 saying that.

18 MS. McMURREY: And, Your Honour, I am not

19 relying on the part of this document that reflects an

20 opinion of the neuropsychiatrist. All I want reflected

21 is the procedures that occurred, physical procedures

22 that occurred to Mr. Landzo at the time that he was

23 admitted to the hospital, and Dr. Buturovic said he

24 would not sign any document that was not true. So I

25 believe that the first paragraph -- I don't even mind

Page 13873

1 redacting the part that refers to the

2 neuropsychiatrist's opinion, but the first paragraph

3 refers only to the factual procedures that occurred at

4 that time and represents no opinion. And I am offering

5 this document for that purpose only.

6 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: That is the part you are

7 offering for the mental state?

8 MS. McMURREY: That is the part that I am

9 offering to show an occurrence that happened in 1994.

10 The Court will have to draw their own opinion as to the

11 mental state of Mr. Landzo, based upon the evidence

12 that's put before it.

13 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: That is your position.

14 There is nothing wrong in that, if you are offering

15 that as -- as certain things you have done to an

16 accused person's, which is not stating any particular

17 thing, could be regarded subsequently as exemplifying

18 the mental state. If that is your position, I think

19 one might admit it for that purpose.

20 MS. McMURREY: Thank you very much,

21 Your Honour.

22 Now, if the Court would just allow me to

23 present one more document to Dr. Buturovic. And I am

24 going to state that I am not quite sure whether the

25 Prosecution has seen this document or not. It's --

Page 13874

1 would you, with your assistance, show that. It's a

2 medical extract -- may I confer with the Prosecution

3 just to see for a moment? Thank you.

4 MS. McHENRY: The Prosecution has not seen

5 this document before.

6 MS. McMURREY: And, Your Honour, I saw this

7 document for the first time last night. I've been

8 ranting and raving about the medical records of this

9 person that I have not been able to find. But I did

10 find an extract signed by Dr. Buturovic of this. I am

11 not trying to ambush Ms. McHenry at all. So if the

12 Court would like to take the break now, where they can

13 have a chance to look at this document, I certainly

14 would provide all of the copies to the Court, if we

15 could return in 30 minutes.

16 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: We'll have a break until

17 11.30. So we can have a break and return at noon. The

18 Trial Chamber will now rise.

19 --- Recess taken at 11.28 a.m.

20 --- On resuming at 12.04 p.m.

21 THE REGISTRAR: May I remind you, sir, that

22 you are still under oath.


24 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: You may proceed,

25 please.

Page 13875

1 MS. McMURREY: Thank you, Your Honours. If I

2 might, I believe the last document I was dealing with

3 was D43; is that correct?

4 THE REGISTRAR: That's correct, it was

5 D43/4.

6 MS. McMURREY: And could I have D43/4, the

7 Bosnian version, given to Dr. Buturovic, please.

8 MS. McHENRY: Your Honour, at this point I am

9 going to ask that any questions be in private session,

10 because I believe that some of the things the Defence

11 Counsel may get into refer to the private medical

12 details of a witness. So I would just ask that we go

13 into private session.

14 MS. McMURREY: Your Honours, I told

15 Ms. McHenry I have no objections to that. It's not a

16 protected witness, but if it might offend somebody, I

17 have no problems.

18 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Inform the technical

19 crew to go into closed session, please.

20 (Private Session)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 13876













13 Pages 13876 to 13891 redacted - in private session













Page 13892

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (In open session)

18 MR. MORAN: Yes, Your Honour, I think we'll

19 go to open session.

20 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: So let's have your next

21 witness.

22 MR. MORAN: Your Honour, we call Nurko

23 Tabak.

24 Your Honour, while he is on his way in,

25 remember, this is the second witness the Court ordered

Page 13893

1 to appear today. He is the last witness we have for

2 today. Dr. Bellas will appear tomorrow. And hopefully

3 he will be done tomorrow afternoon. And then we will

4 have our last witness, who is appearing by order of the

5 Court on Thursday.

6 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Swear the witness,

7 please.

8 THE WITNESS: I solemnly declare that I will

9 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the

10 truth.

11 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Take your seat, please.

12 WITNESS: Nurko Tabak

13 Examined by Mr. Moran

14 Q. Good afternoon, sir.

15 A. Good afternoon.

16 Q. Sir, would you introduce yourself to the

17 Court, tell them your name and where you are from.

18 A. Okay. My name is Nurko Tabak from Konjic.

19 Q. And, Mr. Tabak, tell us a little bit about

20 your background, for instance, are you a married man,

21 and do you have any children?

22 A. I am married and I am a father of two sons.

23 Q. And tell the Court a little bit about your

24 education and background, just so they can get to know

25 you.

Page 13894

1 A. I am a machine technician.

2 Q. Sir, during the summer and winter of 1992,

3 how were you employed?

4 A. I worked in Celebici.

5 Q. And what did you do in Celebici, sir?

6 A. I worked in a workshop for the upkeep of

7 weapons.

8 Q. And who was your superior while you were

9 doing that?

10 A. Major Sefik Kevric.

11 Q. And who was he?

12 A. Major Sefik Kevric.

13 Q. But do you know what he did, what his

14 position was? Was he the head of logistics for the TO,

15 for instance, or was he something else --

16 MS. RESIDOVIC: Your Honours, if I may say,

17 instead of Kevric, two or three times in the transcript

18 it is written Karadzic, which is absolutely wrong, and

19 therefore I would like to ask for the name to be

20 entered correctly. Sefik, Kevric.


22 Q. Sir, if you look behind you, you will see a

23 model of the Celebici barracks and prison. Would you

24 take a look at that and point out to us what building

25 you worked in. You see it behind you? You can get up

Page 13895

1 and just point to the building, if you'd like. And

2 also, sir, before you take off --

3 JUDGE JAN: Does he recognise this model?

4 It's a long time ago.

5 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Ask a specific question

6 when he is standing there. It's easier.


8 Q. Sir, would you put on your earphones. Sir,

9 do you recognise that as the Celebici, model of the

10 Celebici barracks?

11 A. I am not sure that I understand. Do I

12 recognise what? I don't understand the question.

13 Q. The model. That's a model of the Celebici

14 barracks, right?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. You recognise that? Okay. And the building

17 you pointed to?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. -- that was the building that you worked in

20 is right next door to hangar 6; is that not correct?

21 A. Yes. Yes. The building next to hangar

22 number 6.

23 Q. In fact, I don't know if it was then, but

24 today, or at least a year ago when I was there, there

25 was -- both hangars are numbered hangar 6, aren't they?

Page 13896

1 A. I am not sure if they are both called number

2 6. I know they were next to each other.

3 Q. Okay. Sir, while you were working at the

4 barracks repairing weapons, you did not come under the

5 command of whoever was in command of the camp, did

6 you? You worked directly for the major; is that

7 correct?

8 A. No, I couldn't work for anybody else.

9 Q. Okay.

10 A. Except for the major.

11 Q. Now, did you live on the barracks, or did you

12 come every day and go to work and then go home?

13 A. I would come to work from home.

14 Q. Okay. And about what times did you generally

15 work during the day?

16 A. From 7, 7.30, until 4, 4.35, depending on the

17 day.

18 Q. Okay. Sir, again referring to the model.

19 Could you show the judges how you got to the hangar

20 where you worked. Well, first, let me back off. How

21 did you get to the barracks? Did you drive your car?

22 A. I came by car, and I would come to the

23 workshop.

24 Q. Okay. Did you drive your car all the way to

25 the workshop?

Page 13897

1 A. Yes, I would drive up to the workshop.

2 Q. Would you show the judges on the model the

3 general route you took to get from the front gate to

4 the workshop.

5 JUDGE JAN: He took the outer --

6 MR. MORAN: Yes, Your Honour, he took the

7 outer drive. I just want to make sure the Court saw

8 that thank you very much.

9 Q. Sir, do you remember when prisoners first

10 were detained in the Celebici barracks, roughly?

11 A. I wouldn't know the exact date. I don't

12 remember. I don't remember the date.

13 Q. Okay. Do you remember whether it was -- in

14 general terms, the first time you saw prisoners there,

15 was it late May, early June, middle of June, middle of

16 August, whatever you recall?

17 A. I think it was early June, as far as I

18 remember, that it was at that time.

19 Q. Now, sir, while you were at the barracks, did

20 you -- during the day, did you see the prisoners in

21 hangar 6 being fed meals?

22 A. Yes, I did.

23 Q. And how many times a day did you -- did that

24 happen in a normal occasion?

25 A. Twice, while I was there, breakfast and

Page 13898

1 lunch. And I wasn't there for dinner, so, of course, I

2 couldn't see dinner.

3 Q. Did you eat your breakfast and lunch at the

4 barracks or either one, or both?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Both breakfast and lunch, or just lunch and

7 just --

8 A. When I was there, both breakfast and lunch.

9 When I was there.

10 Q. Now, sir, did you see the prisoners eating

11 their meals?

12 A. Yes, I did.

13 Q. And tell the judges where they ate and what

14 you saw in some detail about how they ate.

15 A. Well, I would see them eating in front of the

16 hangar. There was a lawn, from the plates, just

17 normally, from some small containers.

18 Q. So, sir, were they -- how many people did you

19 see eating at one time, roughly?

20 A. Ten to fifteen people, something like that.

21 Q. And, sir, were they all eating out of the

22 same pot, or did each one of them have his own plate?

23 A. I wouldn't know exactly if they did -- those

24 who did eat, yes, but I really don't know if they

25 washed them more, what they did.

Page 13899

1 Q. But when the ten people were out there, were

2 they all -- or 15 people, were they all eating out of

3 the same pot or did each one have his own plate of

4 food?

5 A. They all had their plate.

6 Q. And could you see the food from where you

7 were?

8 A. Of course. I ate it too.

9 Q. Okay. That's the next question, was it the

10 same kind of food that you were eating?

11 A. Yes, was the same kind.

12 Q. Do you have any estimate of the quantity of

13 food that was provided to the inmates?

14 A. No. I think they got as much as I did.

15 Q. Did you see the -- well, was the food put

16 onto the prisoners plates from a big pot? Did they

17 have a big spoon or a ladle to put that food on?

18 A. Yes, there was a ladle which was used to

19 distribute the food with from a bigger container.

20 Q. Was the size of that ladle about the same

21 size as the ladle that was used to dish food out to

22 you?

23 A. Yes, it was the same ladle.

24 Q. Okay. And the food wasn't really tasty, was

25 it? It was pretty bland food?

Page 13900

1 A. Well, I don't know.

2 Q. Did you see whether the prisoners had bread,

3 sir?

4 A. I saw that they did have bread.

5 Q. And could you get an idea of the size of the

6 slices of bread that they had? Were they real thin

7 slices, so thin you could almost see through them, or

8 were they a substantial piece of bread?

9 A. No, I didn't see that. I wasn't close to

10 them. I did not have an opportunity to see that.

11 Q. Okay. That's fair enough, sir. And, sir,

12 the feeding that we just talked about, how the

13 prisoners were fed, was that the same or pretty much

14 the same the entire summer of 1992, or did it change

15 from time to time?

16 A. I wouldn't know for sure.

17 Q. Okay. Sir, do you know my client, Mr. Delic,

18 Hazim Delic?

19 A. I know him a bit.

20 Q. How do you know him?

21 A. I know him from the workshop in Celebici.

22 Q. You mean he was -- he would visit your

23 workshop or you just saw him around? What do you mean,

24 sir?

25 A. I mean when he would come to us for a little

Page 13901

1 bit of lubricant for the weapons and things like that.

2 Q. Okay. Sir, from the location where you were

3 at -- strike that. Did you ever see any prisoners

4 beaten, abused, burned up, stabbed, shot, hit with

5 baseball bats, pickaxes, axe handles?

6 A. No, not even the --

7 Q. Did you ever see any prisoners that looked

8 like they had been beaten, burnt up, hit with axe

9 handles, bruised all over?

10 A. Not.

11 Q. Did you ever hear anybody screaming like they

12 were being beat up or burned up or --

13 A. No, because I did not have an opportunity to

14 see that.

15 Q. Did you see the -- strike that. Sir, did you

16 ever see any female prisoners in the Celebici barracks?

17 A. I did see them, but when I passed by the

18 gate. But I wasn't sure whether they were prisoners or

19 whether they had come for a visit there.

20 Q. Sir, you mentioned visits. Were the families

21 of prisoners allowed to visit them, if you know?

22 A. Yes. Yes.

23 Q. Do you know how often those visits were?

24 A. I wouldn't really know.

25 Q. Okay. Were they a fairly regular thing, or

Page 13902

1 was it a rare event?

2 A. A regular -- they were regular.

3 Q. And when they came to visit, did you see the

4 families of the prisoners bringing packages of food or

5 clothes or things like that to the prisoners?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. And did you see or have occasion to see

8 whether or not those packages were distributed to the

9 prisoners or were they tossed into the river, if you

10 know?

11 A. I don't think that they were thrown away. I

12 think that they were given to the prisoners.

13 Q. Okay. Well, for instance, did you see the

14 prisoners with clean clothes on, after a visit, or did

15 you see them with food or smoking cigarettes or

16 something like that after a visit?

17 A. I did see it once.

18 Q. See what, sir? Clean clothes or smoking

19 cigarettes or food or --

20 A. Clean clothes and eating and smoking more

21 than usual.

22 Q. Sir, you say smoking more than usual. Was it

23 a rare event to see one of the prisoners smoke a

24 cigarette, or was it a fairly commonplace thing?

25 A. Well, at that time I could have seen it by

Page 13903

1 accident. I don't know exactly.

2 Q. Yes, sir, but what I am getting at, was it

3 common or uncommon to see one of the prisoners smoke a

4 cigarette? Was it a very rare event, maybe you saw it

5 once a month, or were they out on a fairly regular

6 basis smoking cigarettes. I am not talking three packs

7 a day, I am talking, were they available to the

8 prisoners?

9 A. No, they were available to prisoners.

10 Q. And you know that because you saw them

11 smoking them, right?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Okay. Sir, what was the situation with water

14 in the camp? Did you see -- was water freely available

15 to everyone in the camp that you saw?

16 A. As far as I could see, it was available to

17 everyone there.

18 Q. What was the weather like in the summer of

19 1992? Was it hot or was it a mild summer or was it --

20 what was the weather like in general?

21 A. Hot. Hot. Hot.

22 Q. And you were working in one of those metal

23 buildings, one of those metal hangars just like the

24 prisoners were living in, weren't you?

25 A. Yes.

Page 13904

1 Q. And how hot was it inside there?

2 A. I did not measure it. But it was hot.

3 Q. Okay. Fair enough. Sir, do you know a woman

4 named Grozdana Cecez?

5 A. No.

6 Q. Sir, you've been informed, haven't you, that

7 she accused you of sexually assaulting her?

8 A. Yes. And it is a great insult for me.

9 Q. Sir, were there ever any of the women in the

10 camp in your workshop while you were there?

11 A. No.

12 Q. And just so that the record is clear, when

13 you say it's a great insult that you've been accused of

14 this crime, are you -- you are saying that you did not

15 do it; is that correct, sir?

16 A. No, not at all.

17 Q. Okay. I think we are having a -- it is your

18 position, then, that you did not sexually assault

19 Ms. Cecez, right? Is that correct?

20 A. No, I did not at all.

21 Q. Okay. That's fine. Sir, just because of the

22 construction of the way sentences are sometimes in

23 English we do funny things with how we put our

24 sentences together, and they can, unless we are

25 careful, they can have a backwards meaning. That's why

Page 13905

1 I asked the question a second time.

2 Your Honour, I pass the witness.

3 MS. RESIDOVIC: Your Honours, Defence of

4 Mr. Delalic has no questions for this witness.

5 MR. DURIC: Your Honour, the Defence for

6 Mr. Mucic has no questions for this witness either.

7 MS. McMURREY: Judge Jan, you see, it's not

8 very much. I saw you looking.

9 JUDGE JAN: Because you didn't stand in your

10 seat to ask the questions. I thought you had dozens of

11 them.

12 MS. McMURREY: Oh, I could do that, I really

13 could. I'm sorry.

14 Your Honours, may I proceed?

15 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: You may, please.

16 MS. McMURREY: Thank you.

17 Cross-examined by Ms. McMurrey

18 Q. Mr. Tabak, good day. I am Cynthia McMurrey,

19 and I represent Esad Landzo. And you and I have never

20 had an opportunity to meet or speak with one another

21 before, have we?

22 A. No.

23 Q. I have a few questions to ask you. It's my

24 understanding that you and Mr. Landzo's mother came

25 from the same village of Glavicine, I'm sure I

Page 13906

1 mispronounced that, but are you from the same village

2 as Mr. Landzo's mother?

3 A. No. I am from Lucine, she is from Resitu

4 (Phon).

5 Q. In around the time of 1973, did your family

6 and the Landzo family both live in a suburb of Konjic

7 called Glavicine, next to each other, you were

8 neighbours.

9 A. Glavicine yes, Glavicine.

10 Q. Thank you for correcting me?

11 A. Glavicine. That is correct.

12 Q. And about that time -- you have a son that's

13 close to the age of Mr. Esad Landzo, don't you.

14 A. Yes. Yes.

15 Q. Were you aware during that time that the

16 Landzo's baby boy, Esad, had serious breathing

17 problems?

18 A. To what time, I am not clear about that.

19 Q. When you lived close to each other in the

20 early seventies, when Esad was a baby.

21 A. Yes, yes, I know that.

22 Q. And, in fact, your own son had a little

23 problem with a -- a speech problem back then too,

24 didn't he?

25 A. Yes, my son did have such problems, and he

Page 13907

1 actually continues to have these problems.

2 Q. The next time I believe you saw Esad Landzo

3 was in Celebici in maybe July of 1992. Would that be

4 accurate?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. And I know you showed the Court, but the

7 building where your shop was, was actually directly

8 next to hangar number 6, wasn't it?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. And so you got a real good eye's view of the

11 detainees in that -- in hangar number 6, didn't you?

12 A. Yes, I did, if I came outside.

13 Q. And sometimes when you came outside you saw

14 them shaving and washing and having baths, didn't you?

15 A. I did see that.

16 Q. And they were given haircuts during that time

17 that you could see outside of the hangar also, weren't

18 they?

19 A. Well, I may not have seen it, if I wasn't

20 around, regarding these haircuts.

21 Q. Also, you could see where Esad Landzo was

22 positioned, if he was guard of hangar number 6,

23 couldn't you?

24 A. I don't know.

25 Q. Okay.

Page 13908

1 Your Honours, I would like to show a video

2 clip right now. It's already into evidence as

3 Prosecution Exhibit 110. But there is one portion

4 where this witness is shown clearly in that video, and

5 at the same time you can see the -- an example of what

6 Mr. -- Mr. Delic -- Mr. Moran was talking about. You

7 can see the food and the prisoners eating outside

8 there. If I might be able to just show that video clip

9 for a moment.

10 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Ask the question you

11 want him to answer.

12 MS. McMURREY: I would like to show the

13 Court --

14 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Please ask the question

15 you want him to answer. If it requires more clarity,

16 then perhaps --


18 Q. Mr. Mucic has you in a videotape in August of

19 1992 at the Celebici camp outside of your workshop,

20 doesn't he?

21 A. I don't remember, but maybe it is so.

22 MS. McMURREY: Your Honours, I am only asking

23 to show this videotape to show the condition of the

24 food. It shows clearly bundles of bread and food that

25 was given to the prisoners right there in front of

Page 13909

1 hangar number 6, just as the witness has described. I

2 believe it would be more --

3 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Ask him whether he has

4 seen the nature of the food they have been eating. He

5 will tell you. He doesn't have to --

6 MS. McMURREY: He's already answered those

7 questions for Mr. Moran. I was trying to assist the

8 Court because it briefly shows these prisoners sitting

9 out there in numbers eating with their separate plates,

10 with big buckets of bread, and how the food was served.

11 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: You are giving

12 evidence. Ask him what he has seen.

13 MS. McMURREY: Well, I assumed, Mr. Tabak,

14 you have not seen this video, then?

15 A. No.

16 Q. All right. Thank you very much for your

17 assistance in coming to testify.

18 I have one other question. You are here

19 under subpoena. And doesn't your wife baby-sit the

20 children of Dr. and Mrs. Buturovic?

21 A. Yes.

22 MS. McMURREY: Thank you. No further

23 questions, Your Honour.

24 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: The Trial Chamber will

25 now rise and reassemble at 2.30.

Page 13910


























Page 13911

1 --- Luncheon recess taken at 1.00 p.m.

2 --- On resuming at 2.30 p.m.

3 THE REGISTRAR: I remind you, sir, that you

4 are still under oath.

5 THE WITNESS: Thank you.

6 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Yes, you may proceed,

7 Ms. McHenry.

8 MS. McHENRY: Thank you, Your Honours.

9 Cross-examined by Ms. McHenry

10 Q. Good afternoon, sir.

11 A. Good afternoon.

12 Q. Sir, I am going to ask you some questions.

13 If you don't understand my question, please just ask me

14 to either repeat it or rephrase it.

15 A. All right.

16 Q. Okay. Now, sir, you were a member of the TO;

17 is that correct?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. And when did you become a member of the TO?

20 A. On the 14th of February -- on the 4th of

21 February -- on the 14th of April, 1992.

22 Q. And did you wear a uniform after the 14th of

23 April, 1992?

24 A. No.

25 Q. What did you wear?

Page 13912

1 A. No, no, I didn't wear a uniform.

2 Q. What did you wear instead of a uniform?

3 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: What he wore without a

4 uniform -- if he is not wearing a uniform --


6 Q. Did you wear any part of a uniform, sir?

7 A. No.

8 Q. Why didn't you wear a uniform?

9 A. Because I didn't have one.

10 Q. Now, when did you start working in Celebici,

11 approximately?

12 A. Sometime in May.

13 Q. And when did you stop working in Celebici,

14 approximately?

15 A. '94.

16 Q. Now, just all my questions, sir, that I am

17 going to ask you today, they all have to do with 1992.

18 So if I forget to say that in a question, you can just

19 assume that I am only asking you about 1992.

20 During 1992, would you go to Celebici every

21 day, seven days a week, or five days a week, or once a

22 week? Can you give us an idea about that?

23 A. Once a week, depending on the need, because I

24 was responsible for the weapons. So I would also

25 travel around, and I wouldn't be able to tell you how

Page 13913

1 many times a week or a month I was in the prison.

2 Q. Okay. And during the months that you worked

3 in Celebici, even if you were only there once a week or

4 so, during any of those occasions when you were in

5 Celebici, was it at night?

6 A. No.

7 Q. And so during all of 1992, during the

8 war-time situation, it was never necessary for you to

9 go to Celebici at night, correct?

10 A. No.

11 Q. What kind of car did you have in 1992, when

12 you would drive to Celebici?

13 A. I had a Lada.

14 Q. Now, you said your superior was Major

15 Kevric. Now, he was in charge of logistics, wasn't he?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. And in any of your work in 1992 to do with

18 logistics or anything else, did you ever have contact

19 with Mr. Zejnil Delalic?

20 A. No.

21 Q. Do you know if he had any involvement in

22 logistic matters?

23 A. No.

24 Q. No, you don't know, or, no, you do know and

25 he did not have any involvement in logistic matters?

Page 13914

1 A. I really don't know.

2 Q. Now, you never saw Mr. Delalic in Celebici,

3 did you?

4 A. No.

5 Q. Now, the door to hangar 6, where the

6 prisoners were kept, was that door kept open or closed

7 or did it depend?

8 A. It depended.

9 Q. Now, approximately, about how many prisoners

10 were in Celebici or in the hangar number 6 in the

11 summer of 1992?

12 A. I wouldn't be able to give you the exact

13 number.

14 Q. Would you say that it was more than 100?

15 A. Well, I didn't count them. I really have no

16 idea.

17 Q. Now, the hangar that you worked in, who

18 worked in that hangar besides you?

19 A. There were two other men with me.

20 Q. And who were they?

21 A. Vadil Vakovic (phonetic) and Sejo Krnjic.

22 Q. Were they members of the TO involved in

23 logistics also?

24 A. Yes, just like me.

25 Q. Now, you saw Mr. Mucic in Celebici sometimes,

Page 13915

1 didn't you?

2 A. Yes. I would see him, but rarely.

3 Q. And just approximately, when was the first

4 time you saw Mr. Mucic in Celebici?

5 A. I don't know whether it was before the oath.

6 I am not quite sure.

7 Q. And when was the last time you saw him,

8 approximately?

9 A. Well, I haven't seen him since then.

10 Q. Are you saying that you only saw him one time

11 in Celebici, at the time of the oath?

12 A. Once.

13 Q. Now, was that the occasion where -- I'm

14 sorry. So you only saw Mr. Mucic one time in Celebici,

15 correct, and that was the time of the oath; is that

16 your testimony, sir?

17 A. Yes. When the oath was being taken, and I

18 don't remember whether I saw him again.

19 Q. Well, the time you saw Mr. Mucic, did he have

20 a video camera?

21 A. I think he did.

22 Q. And you asked him not to film you, didn't

23 you?

24 A. I asked him not to film me.

25 Q. And why didn't you want him to film you?

Page 13916

1 MR. MORAN: Objection, Your Honour. This is

2 irrelevant. Irrelevant.

3 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: (No microphone) Why do

4 you want him to know why he didn't want him to film

5 him?

6 MS. McHENRY: Because I can imagine certain

7 answers that would go to his knowledge as of things,

8 illegal things that were going on in the camp.

9 JUDGE JAN: How would that follow?

10 MS. McHENRY: It wouldn't necessarily

11 follow --

12 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Mainly because I don't

13 want to be filmed? You are making suggestions.

14 MS. McHENRY: I am not making suggestions.

15 That's why I specifically only asked an open-ended

16 question, which was why.

17 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: You could not ask him

18 the other question? Look for something more relevant

19 to ask.


21 Q. Sir, at the time of the oath taking, did you

22 participate in that, or were you just working in your

23 hangar?

24 A. No, I did not take an oath at that time.

25 Q. Sir, is it possible -- you would certainly

Page 13917

1 agree with me that it's possible that you saw Mr. Mucic

2 on other occasions and, in fact, that he had his -- he

3 videotaped you?

4 MR. DURIC: Objection, Your Honour. The

5 witness has said repeatedly here, he saw only once, and

6 on the other occasion he didn't remember --

7 MR. MORAN: Asked and answered.

8 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: I remember only

9 Delalic. Are you following up his seeing Delalic any

10 other time?

11 MS. McHENRY: I am not following up

12 Mr. Delalic. Just before I -- I am sure Your Honours

13 don't want me to show a videotape which impeaches this

14 witness, so I am trying just to potentially jog his

15 memory before I have to show the videotape.

16 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: The question before this

17 one talks about his not being filmed, and who was

18 having the video camera at that time. And then how do

19 you bring in Mucic at this stage?

20 MS. McHENRY: Sorry. I think maybe the

21 record is not clear.

22 Q. Sir, it was Mr. Mucic that you saw with the

23 video camera at the time of the oath taking; is that

24 correct?

25 MR. MORAN: Objection, Your Honour. This is

Page 13918

1 irrelevant.

2 MR. DURIC: The same objection over here.

3 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Perhaps there might be

4 other reasons why she wants this question. If there

5 are reasons why --

6 JUDGE JAN: Was it the only video camera on

7 the occasion?

8 MS. McHENRY: I am actually not

9 particularly --

10 Q. Sir, you would not --

11 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: If you have any question

12 concerning Mucic, go ahead and put it.


14 Q. Sir, you would agree with me that it's

15 possible that Mr. Mucic videotaped you on other

16 occasions besides the oath taking, wouldn't you?

17 A. I don't know.

18 Q. Okay. Fair enough. In that case, I'll let

19 the record speak to itself. It's already in evidence

20 and I don't think it's necessary to show this witness.

21 Now, when was the first time you saw

22 Mr. Hazim Delic in the camp, approximately?

23 A. Well, as I said earlier, maybe I should

24 repeat it again.

25 Q. Yes, please.

Page 13919

1 A. When he came to ask for oil for the weapons,

2 which was used for security.

3 Q. Sir, my question was: When, approximately,

4 was it? For instance, do you remember the month?

5 A. In June.

6 Q. And can you remember the last time you saw

7 him in the camp, approximately, the month?

8 A. No, I can't remember that.

9 Q. And those times when you were in Celebici,

10 would you see Mr. Delic most every time you were there,

11 or rarely, or can you give us an idea about that?

12 A. I would see him rarely when I would pass

13 through the gate.

14 Q. Do you know what Mr. Mucic's role in the camp

15 was, if any?

16 A. No. No, I don't.

17 Q. How about Mr. Delic?

18 A. I also don't know about Mr. Delic.

19 Q. And how was Mr. Delic dressed when you saw

20 him in the camp?

21 A. I saw he had a white belt.

22 Q. And was he, as far as you remember, was he

23 dressed the same the entire time that he was in the

24 camp, or did there come a time where he started

25 dressing differently?

Page 13920

1 A. I can't remember that.

2 Q. Going back to when you first saw Mr. Delic in

3 the camp in approximately June. Did you notice

4 anything about his leg?

5 A. He had a cast on his leg.

6 Q. Did he use -- did he have any kind of crutch

7 or crutches?

8 A. Yes, he had one crutch.

9 Q. And do you remember for how long he had a

10 cast and/or crutches?

11 A. I don't know. I don't know how long he had

12 them.

13 Q. Now, you mentioned that -- you've already

14 mentioned that you know Mr. Esad Landzo. Did

15 Mr. Landzo have a nickname when he was in the camp?

16 A. I beg your pardon? I did not understand the

17 question.

18 Q. You mention that you know Mr. Esad Landzo,

19 and that you saw him in Celebici camp. Did Mr. Landzo,

20 to your knowledge, go by a nickname at that time?

21 A. Yes, he did.

22 Q. What nickname did he go by?

23 A. Zenga.

24 Q. Now, approximately, when was the first time

25 you remember seeing Mr. Landzo in the camp?

Page 13921

1 A. I don't know.

2 Q. And how about the last time?

3 A. I don't know that either.

4 Q. Now, when you would see Mr. Landzo, what

5 would he be doing? Would he be doing guard duty or

6 something else?

7 A. He would be doing guard duty.

8 Q. And where would he be when you saw him doing

9 guard duty? And if you need to get up and point to the

10 model, feel free to do so, if it's hard to explain.

11 A. He would be in front of the hangar, next to

12 the fence.

13 Q. Okay. Can I ask, sir, that you just show us

14 where on the model. And while you are there, can you

15 also show us any other areas where guards would be

16 around the hangar.

17 JUDGE JAN: It's a very complex question.

18 You are talking particularly about Esad Landzo? The

19 guards would be all over the place.

20 MS. McHENRY: You are right, Your Honour.

21 Q. And, sir, I am going to -- to the right of

22 the hangar you can see on top of the hill on the model

23 two depressions or -- what was to the right of the

24 hangar as you faced hangar number 6 on top of the

25 hill? Were there any structures or guards there?

Page 13922

1 A. I didn't see it, and I was not interested in

2 that.

3 Q. So if I understand you, sir, you don't even

4 remember whether or not there was a structure right

5 next to hangar 6; is that correct?

6 A. It is correct, because, as I said, I wasn't

7 there very often, and I didn't follow what was being

8 done at what place, because I just wasn't interested.

9 Q. And were you interested in the prisoners'

10 food supplies and when and how they ate?

11 A. No, I wasn't interested in that.

12 Q. Now, did you ever talk to Mr. Landzo when he

13 was in the camp?

14 A. Maybe I did, but I don't remember.

15 Q. Do you know the names of any other guards

16 besides Mr. Landzo who worked in Celebici?

17 A. I don't remember now at this moment.

18 Q. May I ask you something different, sir. What

19 are the names of Mr. Landzo's brothers?

20 A. I forgot, really.

21 Q. Did you ever see any of his brothers in

22 Celebici?

23 A. No.

24 Q. How did the guards dress?

25 A. They had uniforms.

Page 13923

1 Q. Military camouflage uniforms?

2 A. Yes, camouflage uniforms.

3 Q. And did they have insignia on them?

4 A. I don't know exactly.

5 Q. Were the guards armed?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. When you would come to the camp in the

8 morning on those occasions, when you did come to the

9 camp and leave in the evening, who would let you in and

10 out of the camp?

11 A. A guard.

12 Q. Was it always the same guard or did it change

13 frequently or --

14 A. It would change frequently. They would

15 change frequently. They were not the same guards all

16 the time.

17 Q. And would the guards have to go in and check

18 with someone before they let you in, or would you

19 explain to them what you were doing there? How did

20 that work?

21 A. They would check whether I was smuggling

22 somebody or something inside, and that would be all.

23 Q. Now, you indicated that you saw some women,

24 and you thought maybe they were just visiting. Where

25 were the women when you saw them, and if you can't

Page 13924

1 describe it in words, you can use the model.

2 A. In front of the gate.

3 Q. Were they inside or outside when you saw

4 them?

5 A. They were both inside and outside.

6 Q. Actually, let me apologise, sir. My question

7 wasn't very clear. First of all, were they inside the

8 Celebici camp or outside the Celebici camp?

9 JUDGE JAN: He's answered that question.

10 MS. McHENRY: I'm afraid I may have been

11 confusing about a building and a non-building.

12 JUDGE JAN: He said sometimes inside the gate

13 and sometimes outside the gate. This is what he said.


15 Q. When you say sometimes inside the gate and

16 sometimes outside the gate, do you mean that sometimes

17 they weren't even in the camp?

18 A. I do not understand.

19 Q. Okay. I am sorry, I think I may have not

20 been clear. Sir, when you saw the women that you

21 weren't sure if they were visiting or prisoners, did

22 you ever see the women inside any building or

23 structure?

24 A. At the gate, yes.

25 Q. Okay. Do you mean the building inside the

Page 13925

1 gate or -- I mean, do you mean the building next to the

2 gate or do you mean outside a building near the gate?

3 A. Close to the gate.

4 Q. Inside or outside the building?

5 A. I said this already.

6 Q. Could you please just repeat it.

7 A. Well, I can't say things 100 times.

8 Q. Sir, would you please indicate whether or not

9 you ever saw any women inside the building near the

10 gate?

11 A. In front of the building. I said in front of

12 the building.

13 Q. And how many times, approximately, did you

14 see these women?

15 A. Maybe when there was a visit, two or three

16 times when I was passing through the gate.

17 Q. So your testimony is, sir, you didn't even

18 know that there were any women detained in Celebici

19 camp; is that correct?

20 A. Yes, I heard there were some.

21 Q. Did you ever see any women that you knew were

22 the women detained in the camp?

23 A. I would see them at the gate when I was

24 passing through the gate.

25 Q. And who was it that told you that there were

Page 13926

1 women detained in the camp?

2 A. I don't know -- whoever came to the

3 workshop. I can't remember exactly. Somebody said

4 that there were some, two or three. I don't know

5 exactly how many.

6 Q. And did you ever hear anything about any of

7 them being assaulted in any way?

8 A. No.

9 Q. Now, you stated that sometimes you saw the

10 prisoners eating. Where was it that the prisoners

11 would eat?

12 A. In front of the hangar.

13 Q. And how long would it take the prisoners to

14 eat?

15 A. I didn't measure the time.

16 Q. Did you notice that they were eating real

17 fast and it seemed to be very quick, or it just seemed

18 normal to you?

19 A. Seemed normal.

20 Q. Now, you stated that you would see groups of

21 10 to 15 prisoners at a time eating. Would you agree

22 that sometimes it would only be groups of about five

23 who would eat at one time?

24 A. No. There were from 10 to 15.

25 Q. Okay. May I ask that the video section play

Page 13927

1 just a short section of the video which first shows

2 Mr. -- the witness, and then shows the prisoners

3 outside eating. It's the same section that was talked

4 about immediately before the lunch break, and should be

5 cued up.

6 (Videotape played)

7 Sir, this is a portion of the video taken

8 right after you're -- right after you're shown -- does

9 this refresh your recollection of sometimes it would

10 only be groups of about five who would be eating?

11 A. No.

12 Q. May I ask that the videotape just be rewound

13 a few seconds. I think it's only about ten seconds,

14 and show it to the witness. Can I ask, just a few

15 seconds before then.

16 MR. MORAN: Your Honour, while they are

17 rewinding, just so the record is clear, could we get

18 what exhibit number this is in the record here.

19 MS. McHENRY: Yes, that's a good idea. It's

20 M1B, and Mr. Huber, I think, will give us the number.

21 It's Prosecution number 110. Thank you, Mr. Moran.

22 MS. McMURREY: For the record for Mr. Moran,

23 it's the same clip that I tried to play earlier also,

24 Esad Landzo.


Page 13928

1 Q. Sir, can you see the video on the screen?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. And can we just move forward, have the video

4 now play.

5 (Videotape played)

6 Okay. Thank you. Now, sir, that was your

7 face that we saw in the video, wasn't it?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. And the group of prisoners that you see at

10 the same time, so is it your testimony that that is a

11 much smaller group eating than you ever saw?

12 A. Well, I don't remember. Maybe I didn't see

13 this.

14 Q. Okay. Thank you. Now, thank you for the

15 assistance from the video people.

16 Now, sir, you stated that the prisoners would

17 get breakfast and lunch. What would the prisoners get

18 for breakfast?

19 A. They got whatever we got. We, in the

20 workshop.

21 Q. And what would that be?

22 A. It was uncooked food, predominantly.

23 Q. Can you give us a little more detail, what

24 kind of food, how was it served? Did they use this big

25 ladle that you remember? Can you give us a little more

Page 13929

1 detail about what the prisoners would eat for

2 breakfast?

3 A. I said enough.

4 Q. Sir, does this mean you don't remember

5 anything about what the prisoners ate for breakfast?

6 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: (No microphone)

7 A. I said enough.


9 Q. Can you tell me what you mean by uncooked

10 food?

11 A. I mean tins, marmalade, things like that.

12 Q. You would agree with me that there were times

13 -- well, are you in a position to say, sir, whether or

14 not that there were times where the prisoners did not

15 get breakfast and lunch?

16 A. I don't remember that. I'm not able -- I

17 won't be able to tell you that.

18 Q. Do you remember there a time when the

19 prisoners went several days without food in July?

20 A. I could not -- I would not be able to

21 remember.

22 Q. Now, you talked about the big ladle and the

23 big container, as well as the individual servings,

24 containers that the prisoners would have. Would this

25 big ladle and the big container that you talked about,

Page 13930

1 would that be kept outside the hangar during the time

2 the prisoners were eating?

3 A. Outside. Outside of the hangar.

4 Q. And who would ladle the food out to the

5 individual prisoners?

6 A. I can't remember who.

7 Q. Now, sir, did you eat with the prisoners?

8 A. No.

9 Q. Where did you eat?

10 A. In the hangar.

11 Q. Who would bring you your food?

12 A. The same driver who brought it to the

13 prisoners.

14 Q. And do you remember this driver's name?

15 A. Zlatan Ustalic.

16 Q. And would he give you your food in a

17 container and wait with you while you ate it, or would

18 he drop it off and pick it up later, or how did that

19 work?

20 A. We -- he would ladle into our plates because

21 we had our own plates.

22 Q. Now, did you ever eat in the administration

23 building, or did you always eat in the hangar?

24 A. No. No, not in the administration building.

25 Q. Was there a person named Sok in the camp?

Page 13931

1 A. Sok. Yes.

2 Q. And what was his job in the camp?

3 A. I wouldn't know exactly.

4 Q. Now, besides you and the two other people who

5 worked in the hangar with you and the guards, were

6 there other people who worked in Celebici or stayed

7 there, besides the prisoners?

8 A. I don't know.

9 Q. When you were at the camp, did you ever go to

10 the administration building, in 1992?

11 A. No. No. No.

12 Q. Now, you talked about the packages the

13 prisoners received and the visits the prisoners

14 received. Did you personally ever see a prisoner

15 meeting with any member of his family?

16 A. I did not.

17 Q. Now, you also said that on one occasion you

18 saw a prisoner with clean clothes. When was that,

19 approximately?

20 A. I think this was in June or July. I cannot

21 recall the exact month. I think it may have been June.

22 Q. And how did you know that the clothes were

23 clean? Did you just notice that by seeing them? Did

24 you talk to the prisoner?

25 A. I did not talk to him. I just observed it.

Page 13932

1 Q. And so when you saw that these clothes looked

2 very different than most of the clothes -- most of the

3 clothes normally worn by the prisoners and that they

4 were clean; is that correct?

5 A. That's correct, yes.

6 Q. Now, did you know any of the prisoners that

7 were detained in Celebici?

8 A. Well, I knew some.

9 Q. And did you ever go to the hangar and talk to

10 the prisoners, give them cigarettes or anything like

11 that?

12 A. No.

13 Q. Now, you stated there was plenty of water in

14 the camp. Do you know how the prisoners got their

15 drinking water?

16 A. I wouldn't know.

17 Q. Now, you stated that you sometimes saw the

18 prisoners taking baths. How many times did you see

19 prisoners taking baths?

20 A. I saw it once.

21 Q. And where was it that the prisoners were

22 taking baths?

23 A. Behind the hangar.

24 Q. And how many prisoners did you see taking

25 baths?

Page 13933

1 A. I saw, I don't know, one or something.

2 Q. Sir, are you aware that some prisoners died

3 while they were in Celebici?

4 A. I don't know.

5 Q. You never heard anyone talking about any

6 prisoners dying while they were in Celebici; is that

7 correct?

8 A. I personally did not hear it.

9 MS. McHENRY: Thank you, Your Honours. No

10 further questions.

11 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Re-examination.

12 MR. MORAN: Yes, Your Honour, I have about

13 four or five areas of re-examination. Can I do it from

14 here? It might be a little quicker.

15 Re-examination by Mr. Moran

16 Q. Sir, there were several questions about, did

17 you know if the guards did this or did you know if that

18 happened with the prisoners, or how many prisoners

19 there were. Do you remember that line of questioning

20 from Ms. McHenry?

21 A. I don't recall.

22 Q. Okay. Well, sir, let's -- you were not

23 assigned to the -- as a guard at Celebici, or to the

24 guard force, were you?

25 A. No.

Page 13934

1 Q. And so you weren't particularly interested in

2 how many prisoners there were total in the camp or that

3 kind of thing, were you?

4 A. I wasn't interested in that at all.

5 Q. Okay. On -- did you often see inmates or

6 prisoners outside of hangar number 6 in fairly large

7 numbers just milling around or working or anything like

8 that?

9 A. Yes, I would see them outside.

10 Q. Okay. And you said that you were asked about

11 or said that you saw Mr. Delic as you would pass

12 through the gate. When you saw Mr. Delic when you were

13 passing through the gate, what was he doing there? Was

14 he writing down licence numbers of cars that were

15 coming in, or was he checking cars, was he acting as a

16 guard, or what was he doing?

17 A. He was sitting. I don't know what he was

18 doing.

19 Q. Did he have his cast at the time, or do you

20 recall?

21 A. I said that.

22 Q. Well, maybe I missed it, sir. If you'd jog

23 my memory. At that time, when he was sitting outside

24 the -- near the gate, did he have his cast then?

25 A. I said that he did.

Page 13935

1 Q. Okay. Fine. I just may have missed it, sir,

2 and if I did, I apologise.

3 In Prosecution Exhibit 110, that piece of

4 film you saw, the videotape that had your picture in it

5 and the five prisoners eating. Do you remember that?

6 A. I remember them eating.

7 Q. Okay. That's fine. The question is, from

8 looking at the tape, did that help you recall whether

9 or not they had individual plates to eat from, or

10 whether they all had to eat from the same large

11 container?

12 A. Individually.

13 Q. Okay. Fine. I thank you very much, sir, and

14 I thank you for coming to The Hague.

15 Your Honour, that's all I have.

16 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Thank you very much,

17 Mr. Tabak. I think that's all we have for you. Thank

18 you.

19 (The witness withdrew)

20 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: That's all the witnesses

21 you have --

22 MR. MORAN: Yes, Your Honour, the next

23 witness will be Dr. Bellas, and he is set for ten

24 o'clock tomorrow morning.

25 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: The Trial Chamber will

Page 13936

1 now rise and reassemble tomorrow morning at 10.

2 --- Whereupon proceedings adjourned at

3 3.25 p.m., to be reconvened on 8th day

4 of July, 1998, at 10.00 a.m.