Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 13937

1 Wednesday, 8th July, 1998

2 --- Upon commencing at 10.00 a.m.

3 (The witness entered court)

4 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Good morning, ladies and

5 gentlemen. May we have the appearances now.

6 MS. McHENRY: Good morning, Your Honours.

7 Teresa McHenry for the Prosecution, along with Mr.

8 Huber. Thank you.

9 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Can we have the

10 appearances for the Defence.

11 MS. RESIDOVIC: Good morning, Your Honours.

12 I am Edina Residovic, Defence counsel for Mr. Zejnil

13 Delalic. Mr. Delalic is also represented by my

14 colleague, Mr. Eugene O'Sullivan, professor from

15 Canada. Thank you.

16 MR. DURIC: My name is Niko Duric and I am

17 representing Mr. Zdravko Mucic.

18 MR. KARABDIC: Good morning, Your Honours, I

19 am Salih Karabdic, attorney for Mr. Hazim Delic, along

20 with Mr. Thomas Moran, attorney from Houston, Texas.

21 Thank you.

22 MS. McMURREY: Good morning, Your Honours, I

23 am Cynthia McMurrey and along with my colleague,

24 Ms. Nancy Boler, we represent Esad Landzo. Ms. Boler

25 will not be present in the Courtroom today. Thank

Page 13938

1 you.

2 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: We'll begin this morning

3 with your next witness, Mr. Moran. I see Mrs. McHenry

4 is standing.

5 MS. McHENRY: Yes, Your Honour. I just

6 wanted to advise the Court that this -- I am not now

7 asking for anything, but I wanted to advise the Court

8 that this is a doctor who is testifying as an expert.

9 There has been no expert report. On Monday afternoon

10 we received 250 pages of transcript that the doctor

11 used to prepare, and this morning, and I had an

12 opportunity to skim that material. This morning I got

13 a few more pages, which I have not even had an

14 opportunity to look at. Of course, I am not a doctor,

15 and not having had an expert report, I haven't been

16 able even to consult with anyone about what he may or

17 may not say and cross-examination. I am not now asking

18 for a continuance of the cross-examination. I am just

19 -- because I have no idea what he is going to say, and

20 so it may not be necessary. I just wanted to apprise

21 the Court of the situation.

22 So in the unfortunate event I have to ask for

23 a continuance before cross-examination, at least you

24 would know what the situation that the Prosecution is

25 faced with.

Page 13939

1 MR. MORAN: And, Your Honours, just so that

2 the record is clear, I received a letter from the

3 Office of the Prosecutor on Monday saying that they

4 wanted these documents by 2.30 on Monday or otherwise

5 they would have to ask for a continuance. And those

6 documents were provided to them, or made available to

7 them, prior to the time that they asked for.

8 Just so that the record is clear.

9 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Is that really the

10 issue? What is the direction here -- the directive

11 here about presenting an expert witness?

12 MR. MORAN: Well, Your Honour, Dr. Bellas has

13 not prepared a written report. He is basing his

14 opinions solely on testimony of the Prosecution

15 witnesses. Nothing more and nothing less, Your Honour.

16 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: What is the expertise he

17 is expecting to give to the Tribunal.

18 MR. MORAN: Your Honour -- you mean his

19 expertise, Your Honour?

20 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Yes, what is his area of

21 expertise, since all he is doing is to comment --

22 MR. MORAN: Yes, Your Honour. Dr. Bellas is

23 a forensic pathologist. Is he a graduate of the

24 medical school in, I believe, the University of Havana

25 Cuba.

Page 13940


2 qualification. I am asking for the expertise you

3 expect him to give.

4 MR. MORAN: Yes, Your Honour, I expect Dr.

5 Bellas to testify that based on the assumption that the

6 Prosecution witnesses were telling the truth, when they

7 testified, that their testimony, in all reasonable

8 medical probability, and he'll define that term for

9 you, there would have been substantially more deaths in

10 the camps, there would have been substantially more

11 injuries, there would have been substantially more

12 illness. The physical condition of the inmates at the

13 Celebici camp, both based on lack of food, water, the

14 living conditions that were described by the

15 Prosecution witnesses, and the abuse that was described

16 by the Prosecution witnesses, that if, in fact, that

17 occurred, one would expect that there would be

18 substantially -- there would have been much worse

19 injuries. There would have, in all likelihood, been a

20 severe outbreak of communicable diseases, there would

21 have been -- one would expect that there would be

22 substantial numbers of people suffering from heat

23 stroke, which is a life threatening condition.

24 That there would have been severe

25 dehydration, possibly causing death, and --

Page 13941

1 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: These are your own

2 opinions, not his own -- anyway, let's carry on with

3 him, because what you are saying is an opinion that he

4 would give, any other person could give. Now, let's

5 hear him.

6 MR. MORAN: Yes, Your Honour, Dr. Bellas has

7 not been sworn.


9 THE WITNESS: I solemnly declare that I will

10 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the

11 truth.

12 MR. MORAN: May it please the Court.

13 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Yes, you may proceed,

14 please


16 Examined by Mr. Moran

17 Q. Good morning, Dr. Bellas.

18 A. Good morning.

19 Q. Would you introduce yourself to members of

20 the Trial Chamber?

21 A. My first name is Eduardo and last name

22 Bellas, B-e-l-l-a-s.

23 Q. And, doctor, tell the members of the Trial

24 Chamber about your formal education?

25 A. I received my medical diploma in 1957,

Page 13942

1 February. I spent two years in rotating internship in

2 the hospital of the University of Havana Medical School

3 for two years. Then I train three years in the field

4 of pathology. That was between 1959, 1962, January,

5 January. After that I was a full licensed pathologist

6 in the island --

7 Q. When you say "the island", what island are we

8 talking about?

9 A. Cuba. This was until 1971, the last day of

10 the year, that is on December the 30th, 1971. That day

11 I travelled to the United States and six months later I

12 revalidate my medical diploma in Balor Medical School

13 at Houston that was on July 26th, 1972.

14 Beginning in January the 1st, 1973, until the

15 last day, January, 1974, that is two years, that time

16 was spent with the University of Texas Medical School

17 at Houston in training in pathology. That is the

18 second time in my life I take training in pathology.

19 After I finished this training, I was

20 appointed assistant medical examiner for Harris County

21 in Houston, Texas. I hold this position for about more

22 than 15 years, when I was appointed deputy chief

23 medical examiner for Harris County, Houston, Texas.

24 The last year I spent in the office, I was

25 acting chief medical examiner for Harris County,

Page 13943

1 Houston, Texas.

2 I belong to the basic organisations in my

3 field, in my career, and I have licence to practice

4 medicine in the state of Texas and in the state of

5 Florida, both.

6 Q. Doctor, while you were in Cuba, would you

7 tell the judges about the practical experience you had,

8 the jobs, where you worked, and what your duties were.

9 A. I spent, I say, full licensed pathologist in

10 Cuba. I spent most of the time in teaching hospitals.

11 That is, my practice in Cuba was mainly in the field of

12 pathology in the area of the teaching hospital in the

13 island. And that was a very active practice with many

14 meetings and preparation of clinical pathology

15 conferences.

16 The practice in Cuba was predominantly in the

17 hospital field, and the practice in the United States

18 in the forensic area.

19 Q. Doctor, what are the duties of the office of

20 the medical examiner for Harris County, Texas, in

21 general?

22 A. In general, we have the main duty to

23 establish the cause of death. People under certain

24 circumstances, we handle the cases, homicide,

25 accidental, suicidal death, and also some type of

Page 13944

1 natural causes of death under circumstances that the

2 law establish. We have to establish the cause of

3 death. One of our duties, also, is to help or to come

4 to the opinion about the manner of death. We have the

5 suicide, the homicide, the accidental death, the

6 natural death, and sometimes, when the situation is not

7 clear, the manner of death, we -- we come and

8 determine.

9 Another duty is that we are requested very,

10 very often to testify in Court for the different cases,

11 particularly in homicide. But that is not the only

12 situation. There are civil litigations, there are

13 situations of death while at work that require some

14 opinions and some considerations.

15 Q. Doctor --

16 A. -- about circumstances.

17 Q. About testifying, how many times have you

18 testified as an expert witness in criminal trials?

19 A. In the beginning I start to count them, but

20 in a period of time of 20 years I didn't count.

21 Several hundred.

22 Q. And how many of those were you testifying as

23 an expert witness for the Prosecutor?

24 A. Many, many times.

25 Q. In fact, you've testified as an expert

Page 13945

1 witness for the Prosecutor, in, what, four murder cases

2 where I was the Defence attorney?

3 A. That is correct.

4 Q. Give or take. Doctor, just so that the

5 judges will have an idea of the volume of practice,

6 approximately how many investigations per year are

7 conducted by the Harris County Medical Examiner's

8 Office into the cause of death?

9 A. We were escalating from 1975 to 1996, when I

10 stopped working for the Medical Examiner's Office. The

11 number of homicides and other causes of death, several

12 hundred, even in the scale of thousands.

13 Q. Per year?

14 A. Not per year, but in total.

15 JUDGE JAN: I am just wondering --

16 MR. MORAN: Your Honour, actually, the number

17 of murders we have has gone down from about 700 a year

18 down to, what, about 450?

19 A. 400 homicides in the last years, yes.

20 Q. So that's -- that will give Your Honour some

21 idea of the scale that we are talking about. And,

22 doctor, it's not just homicides, but, for instance, you

23 would see -- investigate deaths and trauma caused by

24 things like traffic accidents or falls or --

25 A. Yes, that is correct. All kinds of --

Page 13946

1 Q. And do you hold any -- are you certified by

2 any agencies as a board certified pathologist or

3 forensic pathologist?

4 A. Yes. There is the speciality board in the

5 United States. I am certified with the American Board

6 of Pathology. I received that in anatomical pathology

7 in 1985, and board certification in forensic in 1987.

8 Q. And you are still receiving training in both

9 pathology and just general medicine, aren't you?

10 A. All the time, yes.

11 Q. In fact, I think you just told me you just

12 finished, what, 35 hours worth of training? Was I

13 right on that?

14 A. 35?

15 Q. Or some number of hours, just in the last

16 couple of weeks.

17 A. Yes. Yes.

18 Q. And, doctor, because -- based on your

19 training and your experience, are you familiar with the

20 effects of blunt trauma on the human body?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. What is blunt trauma?

23 A. Blunt trauma or blunt force are injuries that

24 are associated with solid objects. In blunt trauma we

25 have to distinguish two type of lesions. One is the

Page 13947

1 contusion, the synonym for contusion is bruise,

2 B-R-U-I-S-E, is the same thing. A contusion is blunt

3 force inflicted over the surface of the body,

4 sufficient to produce haemorrhage or extravasation.

5 Extravasation and haemorrhage are synonyms. And, of

6 course, under the circumstances there is swelling and

7 discoloration, bluish-black in the beginning and later

8 on these colours start to fade and replaced by a brown

9 and yellow colour, until everything disappears. That

10 is the bruise or the contusion, sufficient to produce

11 haemorrhage, swelling, and discoloration, but not

12 sufficient to produce tear. If there is a tear, that

13 is a discontinuation of the tissue, rupture of the

14 tissue, then we call laceration, blunt force.

15 Laceration is an open door for infection. That doesn't

16 mean that a bruise or a contusion could not be infected

17 as well.

18 Q. And when you say laceration, what you are

19 saying is a cut, an opening in the skin?

20 A. A tear of the skin.

21 Q. And a contusion is a bruise?

22 A. Correct.

23 Q. In layman's terms. And are you familiar with

24 the infliction of blunt trauma on, for instance, a

25 head?

Page 13948

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. And how about burns? Have you seen burns

3 very often in your practice?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. And are you familiar with the kinds of

6 injuries that burns would cause, both in people who are

7 living and people who are deceased?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. And are you familiar with the effects of

10 starvation, dehydration, high temperature, things like

11 that on the human body?

12 A. That is correct.

13 Q. And the things that that would likely to

14 cause, both in people who are deceased and people who

15 are still alive?

16 A. That is correct.

17 Q. Now, your practice in the last 20 years has

18 been limited to dead people?

19 A. That is correct.

20 Q. But you still, based on your training and

21 experience, both as a physician and as a medical

22 examiner, know what would likely occur in a living

23 person also?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Doctor, we are going to use the phrase, or I

Page 13949

1 am going to use the phrase several times, the phrase

2 "in all reasonable medical probability". Would you

3 define what you mean by that to the judges.

4 A. Reasonable, something that makes sense.

5 Probability is a strong evidence that something can

6 happen. And medical, within the medical field, medical

7 job.

8 Q. And typically in your past practice, in the

9 past times, when you've testified as an expert witness,

10 you've had the advantage of examining the body or

11 examining the patient and seeing lab results; is that

12 correct?

13 A. Yes, several, yes.

14 Q. And we didn't have that in this case?

15 A. Right.

16 Q. Doctor, did I give you a volume of about 250

17 pages of transcripts of the testimony?

18 A. That is correct.

19 Q. And did you base your opinion on that?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Your Honour, with the help of the usher, I

22 have four copies of that. One for the registry and one

23 for each member of the Trial Chamber. I am not going

24 to introduce it into evidence. It's nothing but

25 excerpts from the transcript. But I want the Trial

Page 13950

1 Chamber to see what he relied on. Also, Your Honour,

2 due to a printing error, a reproduction error, the last

3 three pages of what Dr. Bellas was given were omitted

4 from your volumes. I will -- two or three pages. At

5 the break I will have them reproduced and brought up.

6 And I apologise for the reproduction error.

7 Doctor, when I asked you to examine this, did

8 I tell you to presume that the witnesses for the

9 Prosecution were telling the truth?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. And then did I ask you to form an opinion

12 based upon what you presumed to be truthful evidence?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. As to what, in all reasonable medical

15 probability, would have been the results of various

16 pieces of evidence?

17 A. That is correct.

18 Q. Doctor, I would first like to talk you a

19 little bit about the conditions in the camp, as

20 described by the witnesses for the Prosecution, as to

21 food, water, cleanliness, toilet conditions, living

22 conditions. And tell the judges the facts you are

23 going to base your opinion on, just describe what you

24 understand the conditions in the Celebici camp to be as

25 described by the witnesses for the Prosecution.

Page 13951

1 A. The conditions, in general, were, according

2 with the transcripts, very poor conditions, very --

3 extremely dangerous situation for many, many

4 complications, as infections or dehydration, high

5 environmental temperature. In other words,

6 multi-factoral circumstances that all of them very,

7 very, obviously, to endanger human life.

8 Q. Doctor, about the environmental conditions,

9 let's talk a little bit about temperature. As you

10 described it, I showed you pictures of hangar 6 and

11 given the conditions as described by the Prosecution

12 witnesses, and the fact that other witnesses both for

13 the Prosecution and the Defence, have described the

14 summer of 1992 as a hot summer, what would it have been

15 like in that hangar when you had 200, 250 people jammed

16 in there? What would it do to temperature and

17 humidity?

18 A. The temperature outside is usually less than

19 inside, particularly when there are many people crowded

20 in one place. Under the circumstances, the people

21 sweat more, they need more water than usual, and there

22 is always a potential that some of the three degrees of

23 heat related disease can come. Sometimes the first

24 degree is exertion. The other extreme in degree that

25 can kill is heat stroke, and in between, a situation

Page 13952

1 where the high temperature, particularly when there is

2 not sufficient water supply, can come. Exertion is, by

3 large, the most frequent situation. Heat stroke has

4 the potential to kill.

5 Q. Describe for the judges what causes heat

6 stroke and what its effect is on the human body.

7 A. If the environmental temperature is too high,

8 and if the person doesn't have adequate fluids, there

9 is a point where the temperature control of the

10 organism is lost. So what is established is a very,

11 very high, uncontrollable temperature, and that

12 temperature, after 100, 2, 3, 4, 5, 106 --

13 Q. That's temperature Fahrenheit?

14 A. Fahrenheit, yes. Fahrenheit.

15 Q. That would be about how many Celcius, doctor,

16 how many degrees Celcius?

17 A. Well, the body temperature for the human is

18 37 in Centigrade, but the scale, when it come 41, 40,

19 but maintained for a certain time, then the person who

20 is going to have heat stroke and that, the temperature

21 is not controllable any more, that temperature, 42 or

22 106 in Fahrenheit.

23 Q. And given the amount of water that the

24 Prosecution witnesses testified that they were given

25 access to during the period of May, June, July, August

Page 13953

1 of 1992, do you have an opinion, based on all

2 reasonable medical probability, of the chances of heat

3 stroke of the people being confined in hangar 6?

4 A. Considering that heat stroke is a maximum

5 expression of that -- or the result of being under high

6 temperature, environmental high temperature and not

7 adequate fluid supply, it's an extreme situation, but

8 in the middle or below that to the most benign

9 situation, exertion, because of the temperature, I

10 would suspect under the circumstances more problems

11 with the temperature.

12 Q. Did you, for instance, in your practice in

13 Houston in the Medical Examiner's Office, did you see

14 heat stroke on occasion?

15 A. Many times.

16 Q. And what kinds of things would cause heat

17 stroke -- because, before they got to you they were

18 dead. Sufficient to cause death?

19 A. My experience was that most of them came up

20 working under the sun in construction areas, and those

21 working in the attics, of course always in summer

22 time. Those are the two more frequent cases. People

23 in the attic, working in the attic and those working in

24 the outside, particularly in construction, or in the

25 fields.

Page 13954

1 Q. And given the conditions in the Celebici

2 camp, as described by the Prosecution witnesses, would

3 you have expected to see numerous cases of heat stroke?

4 A. Well, if not numerous, I could expect to have

5 some people with real, real problems about the

6 environmental temperature. I would expect that, yes,

7 more.

8 Q. Now, let me tie this lack of water in with

9 the sanitary conditions in the camp, as described by

10 the Prosecution witnesses. The way they described

11 dirty water, water with pieces of faeces in it, all

12 sharing the same eating utensils, living -- even

13 sitting in human waste. Would that likely cause

14 diseases that would increase the amount of dehydration?

15 A. Yes, they can.

16 Q. What kind of diseases are we talking about,

17 doctor?

18 A. Well, under the circumstances, infectious

19 disease, either in the skin, particularly in the area

20 that has been contused or lacerated, are more prone to

21 be infected. Also, diarrhoea is another complication

22 that you expect. And, of course, there is also all

23 kinds of contaminations, infections, by oral way with

24 the food.

25 Q. Doctor, would this diarrhoea that you just

Page 13955

1 talked about, would that have an effect on the amount

2 of dehydration when you add it to the lack of drinking

3 water?

4 A. Yes. On these circumstances diarrhoea

5 produce some effects under ordinary circumstances, but

6 when the circumstances are adverse, like in this case,

7 the situation is worse.

8 Q. Would you expect the combination of the heat

9 and the diarrhoea, that you would expect, based on the

10 contamination and dirty living conditions, to cause

11 death or serious illness to those inmates?

12 A. Yes, because it is multi-factoral.

13 Q. In all reasonable medical probability, are we

14 talking about a substantial number of deaths based just

15 solely on disease?

16 A. Yes. Situation when the life threatening

17 conditions are very, very probable.

18 Q. Now, if the witnesses for the Prosecution are

19 accurately describing in the conditions in the camp,

20 and if there were approximately 250 people in that

21 hangar, and if you'd like I can show you pictures of

22 the interior of the hangar, and are we talking about --

23 well, how many deaths, roughly, would we expect, based

24 on dehydration and heat stroke, solely due to the lack

25 of clean drinking water and the resulting diseases? Do

Page 13956

1 you have any idea?

2 A. Well, I cannot go on statistical data at this

3 time.

4 Q. Sure.

5 A. But a rough estimate of the amount of people

6 there, the circumstances that is reflected in the

7 testimonies, that I would expect more problems, more

8 lacerations, more infections, more gastro-intestinal

9 disturbances, and probably more that.

10 Q. By the way, doctor, I think it's in the --

11 I'm sure it is in the excerpts that you have. One of

12 the witnesses for the Prosecution testified that he did

13 not have a bowel movement for 13 days and that there

14 were others who did not have bowel movements for 40

15 days while they were confined in the Celebici prison.

16 Given the conditions as described by the Prosecution,

17 in all reasonable medical probability, is that

18 possible?

19 A. The 13 days is perfectly acceptable, under

20 the circumstances that these persons were. Forty days,

21 I have no information of any case of forty days. But

22 as I said before, the human body has a -- sometimes an

23 unbelievable resistance for life. I wouldn't be

24 reluctant to accept 40 days without bowel movement.

25 But it would be very unusual.

Page 13957

1 Q. Well, let's talk about the human body being

2 tough. We are tough creatures. The good lord made us

3 pretty tough. Your Honour, did you have a question?

4 I'm sorry, I thought you had a question.

5 But, on the other hand, sometimes, seemingly,

6 minor things can cause serious bodily injury or death,

7 can't they?

8 A. Sometimes, yes.

9 Q. And that would vary, I suspect, somewhat on

10 the age of the person and the general health of the

11 person, and it would probably also -- is that correct,

12 doctor? Am I correct in that assumption?

13 A. Yes, it is correct. We have two extremes,

14 the elderly and the children. They are more liable

15 than anybody else. In the middle are the most

16 resistant people.

17 Q. And how about the availability of medical

18 care? Is that --

19 A. It's critical.

20 Q. So, for instance, if there is a good trauma

21 facility available, a person might survive an injury,

22 where if there is little or no medical care, he might

23 not?

24 A. Absolutely.

25 Q. Describe for the judges what you are basing

Page 13958

1 your opinion on when I talk about the food supply for

2 the inmates?

3 A. The food supply that I read in the different

4 testimonies are very, very negligible, very little, in

5 terms of calories, proteins, carbohydrates and fats.

6 Everything is very, very low. You expect that

7 situation like this maintained for more than 30 days

8 will produce a very significant decrease in the body

9 weight.

10 Q. Would it likely, standing alone, lead to

11 death or serious illness over a period of, say, the end

12 of May through the end of July?

13 A. Three months.

14 Q. Three months.

15 A. Three months, under these circumstances,

16 again I will expect more serious complications

17 associated with low nutrition level.

18 Q. Now, doctor, would you put all of this

19 together for us, the lack of clean water, the fact that

20 it was dirty water, the temperature, the filthy living

21 conditions that are described by the Prosecution

22 witnesses, the poor diet, and setting aside any

23 allegations of trauma at all, what would you expect

24 would be the result of confinement under the

25 circumstances described by the witnesses for the

Page 13959

1 Prosecutor over that about two- to three-month period?

2 A. Nutrition problems and infections mostly.

3 Q. What would the people look like?

4 A. Very thin, very -- people that obviously are

5 starving.

6 Q. You've seen pictures of survivors of

7 Auschwitz?

8 A. Correct.

9 Q. Would they look like that?

10 A. Uh-huh.

11 Q. Is that a yes, doctor?

12 A. Yes, yes.

13 Q. Now, let's add in some of the other things

14 that the Prosecution witnesses talked about. They

15 talked about -- let's start with blunt trauma. And for

16 that I would ask that the doctor be shown Defence

17 Exhibit, I believe it's 6-3. Doctor, you are from

18 Cuba, and I think this has something to do with one of

19 your national sports, so you are familiar with these

20 things?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Okay. That's fine, thank you. And, doctor,

23 have you seen the results of being beaten with one of

24 those things on the human body?

25 A. Yes.

Page 13960

1 Q. On healthy people, people that were

2 previously healthy?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. And how many of those did you see on your

5 autopsy table?

6 A. I don't remember, but probably I have seen

7 several that a baseball bat was used, and I never did

8 know, because I have been -- I have seen many, many

9 blunt traumas, that in all kind of circumstances, and

10 sometimes some -- several objects have been used. But

11 in two or three occasions the situation of baseball bat

12 specifically was brought to my attention. Two or three

13 blows in the head with fractured skulls.

14 Q. And if someone is hit with a baseball bat,

15 one or two or three times, not necessarily in the head,

16 but in other parts of the body, is that likely to cause

17 severe injury?

18 A. Severe, yes.

19 Q. And -- well, for instance, let me describe

20 something that's in the document. I can tell you the

21 page number. Your Honour, the page number I am going

22 to refer to this is the page number, not of the

23 transcript, but at the bottom of the transcript

24 excerpts. And on page, I believe, it's 30 and 31, one

25 of the witnesses for the Prosecution says he was hit

Page 13961

1 across the back with a baseball bat about 30 times and

2 had some broken ribs. Doctor, if someone were hit with

3 a baseball bat across the back 30 times, how serious,

4 in your opinion, would the injury be?

5 A. Everything depends how much force the person

6 that is inflicting those injuries put on the bat. It's

7 not necessary to put too much force on a baseball bat.

8 If you take the baseball bat for it's usual part, it's

9 not necessary to put too much force in order to inflict

10 a serious injury. Of course, you were talking about

11 the back. We can have 30, with more -- you can afford

12 that but not in the head.

13 Q. Now, our back has, among other things, ribs

14 and the spine in it?

15 A. That is correct.

16 Q. If one were hit very hard across the back

17 with a baseball bat, would there be a chance of injury

18 to the spine?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. How good -- how likely would it be that there

21 would be some injury to the spine?

22 A. Very likely.

23 Q. And given the kinds of injuries we are

24 talking about, what would be the likelihood of -- well,

25 what likely would be the type of injury we are talking

Page 13962

1 about? Someone in a wheelchair?

2 A. Contusions, as most of the time, baseball bat

3 usually do not produce lacerations unless in the --

4 beneath the soft tissue, there is a bone, a resistant

5 plane. In that case the laceration is very easy to be

6 produced.

7 JUDGE JAN: The skin is stretched -- the skin

8 is stretched (Microphone, please, Your Honour)?

9 A. Exactly. In the case of the head, it's very

10 easy to produce a laceration because the resistance of

11 the cranium beneath is easily tear by the blow. But in

12 other parts of the body the contusions are the

13 predominant lesions. But the ribs, if beings hit by

14 the baseball bat, can be fractured with relative ease.


16 Q. How about the spine?

17 A. Well, the spine is more protected than the

18 ribs, because the ribs come lateralise and protrude

19 more than the spine. The spine remain a little bit

20 hidden and covered by abundant muscles around it. It's

21 more protected. But it can be damaged and fractured

22 too.

23 Q. If there were regular beatings with a

24 baseball bat across the back by people who were in the

25 living conditions that you've described, and the

Page 13963

1 Prosecution witnesses swore were correct, if there --

2 if every time I went outside to urinate I got hit

3 across the back with baseball bat a couple of times,

4 and if it was done to everybody, every one of these 250

5 people, would it be likely or unlikely that someone

6 would be unlucky enough to have a severe enough spinal

7 injury to cause paralysis, permanent paralysis?

8 A. Well, the paralysis represent -- it can come

9 directly or indirectly associated with a trauma,

10 because the paralysis can come by damage to the spine,

11 but this damage may be associated with haematomas in

12 the spinal canal and may produce paralysis without the

13 bone being fractured, let's say. That is the

14 situation. But with a baseball bat, beating people in

15 the back, or lateral chest, the most frequent

16 complication bones are concerned, is fractured ribs.

17 Q. And if those fractured ribs are not treated,

18 given the living conditions described by the witnesses

19 for the Prosecutor, what's the likely medical outcome?

20 Will they eventually just heal themselves or will there

21 be internal injuries or could it vary?

22 A. The ribs, because they usually remain in

23 contact, the broken part, the two segment, the proximal

24 and the distal segments usually are more or less in

25 contact. They can heal spontaneously with time. The

Page 13964

1 ribs are healed like the bones of the upper extremities

2 faster than the bones in the lower extremities. So

3 they can heal and many rib fractures do not require a

4 specific orthopaedic devices. Of course, any fracture

5 can be subject to infection, osteomyelitis. And that

6 is another complication, post-trauma.

7 Q. Could one, given the physical conditions of

8 the camp, if there were lots of beatings like this, one

9 would expect lots of broken bones?

10 A. Oh, yes.

11 Q. And given the fact that there are lots of

12 broken bones that are not being treated, either no

13 medical care or poor medical care, in all reasonable

14 medical probability how many cases -- well, how many is

15 a big word -- would you expect to see a substantial

16 number of cases of osteomyelitis?

17 A. Well, at least when the fracture is produced,

18 the healing begins almost immediately. What you see is

19 the callous, that is the point of healing is very

20 regular and very big, mostly -- osteomyelitis is a

21 possibility. Every time you fracture a bone,

22 osteomyelitis might be a complication. But under the

23 circumstances I would expect a little bit of

24 osteomyelitis. I don't know. I cannot go on a

25 statistical -- it's in general.

Page 13965

1 Q. Sure. And given the number of beatings --

2 well, first, let me back off a second. Tell the judges

3 the difference between what we call a simple fracture

4 and what we call a compound fracture.

5 A. If somebody hit me in this arm, for instance,

6 and the blow is sufficient to fracture my bone in the

7 arm, let's say one only, and the two pieces of bone

8 remained in position without any deviation either from

9 the distal part or the proximal part, and the situation

10 is that the bone stayed there, and the line of fracture

11 is, say, a thin line of fracture that is there without

12 any irregularities, we call that simple fracture.

13 Compound fractures means that the blow brings a

14 separation of the proximal segment with the distal

15 segment. Then this is done at the expenses of

16 additional injuries to the soft tissues around the

17 bone, because after the blow you have the contraction

18 of the muscles that come in and out or around the bone,

19 that they will pull one side or the other and make the

20 healing more difficult. And that's why the compound

21 fracture sometimes require open surgery. When the

22 fracture is not compound, the possibilities for

23 infections are very nil, non-significant. The compound

24 fracture are more subject to complications,

25 particularly infections.

Page 13966

1 Q. Doctor, is it common or uncommon in the case

2 of a compound fracture of -- pick a bone, any bone --

3 for the bone, my arm, if I have a compound fracture of

4 my lower arm, would it be common or uncommon for the

5 bone to come through the skin?

6 A. Everything depends upon the force. When you

7 deal with motor-vehicle accidents and accidental

8 industrial death, you can see that very, very much.

9 They stick out from the inside.

10 Q. Sure. Now, would the trauma that's -- that's

11 described by these witnesses for the Prosecution in

12 their testimony, would that be fairly similar to an

13 automobile accident or an industrial accident or is it

14 anything that --

15 A. In trauma, with motor-vehicle accident you

16 have the extreme, and many, many types of trauma

17 because the car turn over several times, because the

18 body was thrown from the vehicle. The primary impact

19 brings more serious lacerations and fractures. But

20 later on secondary trauma can produce minor things.

21 But in this type of punishment, when you put the people

22 against a wall and you ask to raise the hands and hit

23 in the back, you don't expect those extremely -- the

24 bones to stick out from the body. Fractures there, a

25 little bit deviation is possible, or the cheek to cheek

Page 13967

1 approach of both parts of the bone, fine. Much, much

2 less. The intensity is much, much less.

3 Q. By the way, one question I am going to ask,

4 because, frankly, because Judge Jan, before you came

5 here, mentioned something about he didn't need a

6 physician to tell him if you get hit 200 to 250 times

7 with a baseball bat, you are going to have severe

8 injuries. But one of the witnesses for the Prosecutor

9 testified that by count he was hit more than 200 times

10 with that baseball bat up and down this side of his

11 body. In all reasonable medical probability, doctor,

12 what would be the result of a beating like that?

13 MS. McHENRY: Could counsel just please tell

14 me what he is referring to, what page in the doctor's

15 material.

16 MR. MORAN: Sure. It was testimony of Mirko

17 Dordic and I believe on the material it's on page 33

18 and 35.

19 Just so the record is clear, I think Ms.

20 McHenry may have been the lawyer that asked the

21 question that brought about that response.

22 Q. Anyhow, doctor, what kind of injuries would

23 one expect if you were hit 200, 250 times with a

24 baseball bat, real hard?

25 A. This part from the --

Page 13968

1 Q. Down the side.

2 A. From the waist?

3 Q. From about the armpit down to about the

4 knee.

5 A. Well, the possibility of rib fractures is --

6 both sides, 270 times?

7 Q. No, between 200 and 250 times on one side of

8 the body?

9 A. On one side of the body? All on one side?

10 Q. Yes, doctor.

11 A. Rib fractures will be expected, of course.

12 The rest of the injuries, because it's an area that is

13 covered by abundant muscle, particularly thigh and the

14 -- around the waist, everything depends on the frame

15 of the individual, of the victim.

16 Q. How about if he's been starving?

17 A. And intensity.

18 Q. How about if he's been starving and filthy

19 living conditions with little or no -- with little

20 drinking water, none of it clean?

21 A. Oh, in that case, that person, I don't think

22 is in the position or in the situation that afford that

23 many trauma. That is -- that would devastating for

24 that person under that circumstance.

25 Q. So in all reasonable medical probability that

Page 13969

1 person would not come up four years later and testify

2 in a Court about his injuries?

3 A. It's a very, very unlikely that a person can

4 afford that many blows.

5 Q. Doctor, while I am thinking about it, when

6 you get multiple hits with something and, as you'll

7 recall, there is descriptions of things, other than

8 baseball bats, that were used to hit people, there were

9 shovel handles, pickaxes, pipes, rifle butts that the

10 Prosecution witnesses said were used to hit them. Let

11 me give you a hypothetical situation. That someone is

12 hit -- is being hit with one of these objects, pick one

13 of them, a lead pipe, a piece of pipe, and I keep

14 hitting. Is it likely that one of the early blows

15 would, say, fracture a rib?

16 A. Any one can do a fractured rib.

17 Q. So the very first one could fracture a rib?

18 A. Oh, yes.

19 Q. What would happen if I hit him on the same

20 place, where that fractured rib was, hit him again with

21 had a lead pipe?

22 A. Well, in that case the chances come and come

23 and come and the greater the number of blows, the

24 greater the chance for fractured rib, yes.

25 Q. And would -- if I fractured a rib the first

Page 13970

1 time, is it possible that the second blow could cause

2 the rib to, per chance, pierce an internal organ?

3 A. It's very difficult to know under these

4 circumstances which blow inflicted the fracture. But

5 there is one thing, after the rib was fractured and

6 more blows come to the same area, the pain will be

7 terrible and the swelling and the inflammation and the

8 possibilities for infection will increase tremendously.

9 Q. Doctor, let's talk for a second about blunt

10 trauma caused by rifle butts. I think you described

11 them to me yesterday, that there's a difference in the

12 type of injury that's likely to be caused by a rifle

13 butt, depending upon how someone is hit with it, how

14 the rifle is used. Would you describe that to the

15 members of the Trial Chamber.

16 A. Yes. We are talking about rifle butts?

17 Q. Yes.

18 A. Not bar. You see, as you know, the lateral

19 surface of the butt are very smooth, and sometimes the

20 soldiers -- this is not related to my practice as a

21 medical examiner. We have no of those cases in

22 Houston.

23 Q. Excuse me a second. Let's be up front with

24 the members of the Trial Chamber. You served as an

25 officer in the military of Cuba and had military

Page 13971

1 training?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Is this what you are basing your opinion on?

4 A. Yes. Yes.

5 Q. Okay.

6 A. And seeing many news that when the people get

7 hit, the blow that is inflicted with rifle butt, like

8 this, lateral blow, is very different when the people

9 or the soldier take the rifle and do like this. This

10 one is a tremendous penetrating power and tremendous

11 potential to produce internal damage. Although, you

12 see not too much outside. But the other one, which is

13 lateralised, is a more gentle, if I may say so, blow.

14 Q. When you say gentle, it's not a gentle hug

15 like you would give your child?

16 A. Exactly. Less penetrating.

17 Q. Now, if someone were leaning up against a

18 wall like this, or laying on the ground and were being

19 beaten with a rifle butt, which way would it be more

20 likely that they would be hit, if you know? If you

21 have any kind of an opinion on that?

22 MS. McHENRY: Your Honour, I am going to

23 object to this. I didn't object to the previous

24 questions, although I am not sure they are within his

25 expertise. But I certainly don't think this is within

Page 13972

1 his expertise. Which way would it be more likely that

2 a soldier beating someone with his hands against the

3 arm would hit it. I would object to that.

4 JUDGE JAN: There is substance in what she

5 says.

6 MR. MORAN: Yes, Your Honour. I'll just

7 withdraw that question. The Trial Chamber can draw its

8 own conclusions.

9 Q. Doctor, if someone is beaten with a shovel or

10 a shovel handle sufficient to break that wooden handle

11 in the area between, say, the waist and the knees, so

12 including the thighs, would it be likely or unlikely

13 that one would have a broken thigh?

14 A. It may, yes.

15 Q. And presume that the person who is being

16 beaten was living in the conditions described by the

17 witnesses for the Prosecution, would that make it more

18 or less likely, that one would have a broken thigh?

19 A. Well, it's sufficient as to produce a broken

20 thigh. Everything depends also how hard is that piece

21 of wood, and the complexion of some victims. Because

22 some victims are real, real strong with powerful

23 muscles and they are protected, but there is another

24 possibility that although you don't see too much

25 outside, the trauma, this time of trauma that you ask

Page 13973

1 me is serious, is very, very strong, it can cause

2 internal haemorrhages that you are not able to see.

3 That can happen.

4 Q. Okay. Would one expect to see those kinds of

5 injuries in people who were living in the kinds of

6 conditions described by the witnesses for the

7 Prosecution?

8 A. Well, the external evidence is always there.

9 The internal evidence, if any, be it a fracture or a

10 haematoma inside the pelvic or the abdominal cavity,

11 you cannot see that from the outside. For the

12 fractures you need the x-ray.

13 Q. Let's talk about head injuries for a minute.

14 When a person is beaten in the head with fists, rifle

15 butts, electric cables, or has his head jammed into

16 concrete, presuming it's not sufficient to just crush

17 his head and have horrible fractures, so there is no

18 visible wounds, or maybe just visible laceration or

19 something like that. But we are not talking about a

20 crushed skull. What kinds of injuries is that likely

21 to cause?

22 MS. McHENRY: Assuming that this is not a

23 pure hypothetical, I just ask Defence counsel to tell

24 me what section of the material.

25 MR. MORAN: It's a pure hypothetical.

Page 13974

1 MS. McHENRY: If it's a pure hypothetical, I

2 object as to relevancy.

3 MR. MORAN: Okay. Your Honour, I would

4 recommend that the Prosecutor look at pages 120 and 124

5 of the documents that I gave her.

6 Q. Doctor, on those pages, a witness whose name

7 is R, testified that when they arrived at the camp they

8 were beaten?


10 MR. MORAN: 120 and 124 is what my notes

11 show, Your Honours.

12 Q. And this witness, Witness R, describes on

13 page 120 of the documents that you were given -- by the

14 way, doctor, if you look behind you, you will see a

15 model of the camp. And the wall we are talking about

16 is that concrete retaining wall right next to the

17 gatehouse there, if that has any effect on your

18 opinion. And this witness, this Witness R testified

19 about beatings, when they arrived at the camp, and he

20 said, and I am going to skip some areas, but I'm going

21 to read you what he said. And this is going to be on

22 page 7683 of the official transcript -- 7683 and 84.

23 This beating affected all parts of the body. I

24 personally got the strongest blows at the back of my

25 head, also in the kidney areas. The injuries inflicted

Page 13975

1 by the blows with foreheads against the wall were

2 frequently as serious as those inflicted at the back of

3 the head because the forehead hit against the wall

4 every time.

5 He further describes that he fainted twice

6 during the beatings. One of the guards "hit me with

7 his rifle here across the head" he indicated in the

8 record. He doesn't say exactly where it was. And he

9 further went on to say that this lasted for about 30 --

10 this is on page 124 of my notes. That it went on for

11 about 30 to 35 minutes. They were beat with objects

12 that were at hand and at foot, boots, beaten along the

13 genitals, to the back of the heads, hit with rifle

14 barrels and butts, both sides. And he says, also, they

15 were beaten with pickaxes, with shovels, any other

16 objects that were around the camp, because there was a

17 warehouse, and they were also beaten with chains,

18 cables and intertwine cables.

19 Doctor, let's just focus on the kinds of head

20 injuries that this person described, Witness R

21 described. If one's head is hit in a way that's not

22 sufficient to crack the skull or fracture the skull,

23 what happens to the bone -- excuse me, to the brain?

24 A. The cranial cavity or the cranial cephalic

25 complex poses a very particular field in relation to

Page 13976

1 trauma. In the absence of fractures of the skull, what

2 happen is that when there is a fracture, let's begin

3 with a fracture, when there is a fracture upon a blow,

4 that means that the forces has been -- most of the

5 forces inflicted by the blunt object have dissipated in

6 the skull, in the bone. When there is not a fracture,

7 the blow is transmitted toward the brain producing

8 something that you cannot see even with a microscope.

9 Concussion of the brain. Concussion, not contusion of

10 the brain. Contusion of the brain is like a contusion

11 in the skin. You see the haemorrhage, you see the

12 swelling, and you see the discoloration. Concussion

13 means an effect of vibration inside the brain system

14 that can cause unconsciousness or dizziness or, in some

15 cases of blast injury, when there is a bomb that

16 explode, the wave will produce a vibration that can

17 kill you, blast injury. So that's what happened to the

18 brain when there is no fracture of the skull. The

19 forces are dissipated in the brain tissue, produces a

20 concussion.

21 Q. Doctor, given the description that I just

22 read you, would it be likely or unlikely that Witness R

23 suffered a concussion of the brain at that point?

24 A. Concussion as a rule, no question.

25 Q. Now, if it's treated, does it -- or

Page 13977

1 untreated, does that make any difference in the

2 outcome?

3 A. This is something that the brain put the

4 things again in place. If not, it's because there was

5 an exonic injury. That is another thing, acute exonic

6 injury can kill you in very short time, in 12 hours.

7 But if nobody was dead in the next few hours of that

8 concussion as a rule, and that comes to the --

9 everything comes to the brain again, the connections

10 between the neuron cells, they come in the normal

11 fashion without any treatment. It's a matter of time.

12 Q. Okay. Now, would trauma like that described

13 by Witness R -- presuming it happened to several people

14 at the same time, similar types of abuse, is it likely

15 or unlikely that some of those people would suffer,

16 say, a fractured skull?

17 A. It's possible to see fractured skull.

18 Sometimes we can see signals in the outside that we

19 know that there is a fracture of the skull, although we

20 don't have an x-ray. For instance, if they see that

21 there is a swelling in the mastoid area, left or right,

22 and there was a bluish black discoloration and

23 swelling in the mastoid area without any contusion,

24 without any laceration in that area, I know that there

25 is a fracture in the right temporal bone. Likewise, if

Page 13978

1 I see that there is haemorrhage coming up from the ear

2 canals, I know, without doing the x-ray, I make the

3 assumption that there is a fracture of the temporal

4 bone.

5 Q. Given the description that Witness R gave of

6 this abuse, would it be likely or unlikely that someone

7 would suffer a fracture to their skull?

8 A. Both are possible, with or without fracture.

9 All depends upon how the blow was inflicted, because if

10 you have the head against the wall, and you hit me

11 right in the opposite pole of that contact with the

12 wall, the possibilities of fracture will increase. But

13 if the blows are inflicted not in that line, then the

14 possibilities of fracture will decrease.

15 Q. Well, if I am hit on the back of the head and

16 that drives my head into the wall.

17 A. In that case, the fracture is more likely to

18 be produced than not. Again, the fractures can be

19 simple or may be compound. But the question in the

20 brain is not that the fractures are simple or

21 compound. It's the association, internal bleeding,

22 either by epidural haematoma or subdural haematoma that

23 is the real, real serious complication.

24 Q. Well, you can have a subdural haematoma even

25 without a fracture of the skull, can't you?

Page 13979

1 A. Subdural haematoma may or may not be

2 traumatic, epidural haematoma is always traumatic in

3 origin.

4 Q. Tell the judges what subdural and epidural

5 haematoma are?

6 A. Well, let's say that I have a needle and I

7 put the needle over here and trespass the scalp. After

8 that the needle will perforate my bone. Then, after

9 the bone is the dura matter. Between the Dura matter

10 and the bone, normally there is not a space. When

11 there is a fracture of the skull, the blood is

12 accumulated between the inner surface of the bone and

13 the outer surface of the dura. That is epidural

14 haemorrhage or haematoma. If the needle comes and

15 perforate the dura, then it comes to the space between

16 the dura and the brain. That is subdural space with

17 subdural haemorrhage or subdural haematoma. So this

18 are the plains that occur normally. Usually the

19 fracture of the skull produce epidural haematoma

20 practically 100 percent of the cases the degree of the

21 haematoma, the degree of haemorrhage depends upon the

22 seriousness of the bomb damage.

23 Q. Without medical treatment, what is the

24 prognosis generally for a person who has a subdural or

25 epidural haematoma?

Page 13980

1 A. It depends upon the volume of the haematoma.

2 The haematoma in the subdural space in particular, they

3 can bleed spontaneously or they can bleed upon minor

4 trauma. It's not the case of the epidural haematoma --

5 Q. You said even minor trauma can cause a

6 subdural haematoma?

7 A. No, no. Once you produce a traumatic

8 subdural haematoma.

9 Q. I misunderstood. Thanks.

10 A. Say that the subdural haematoma is of the

11 size of three centimetres in diameter, if you are

12 quiet, if you are in bed, that can bleed as

13 spontaneously and be increase in the next hours, and

14 can kill you in the next hours.

15 Q. This is a life threatening injury?

16 A. It is.

17 Q. And it's the type of thing that requires

18 definitive medical treatment?

19 A. Well, many blows under these circumstances

20 not producing sufficient fractures, sufficient

21 haemorrhage in the epidural or subdural space without

22 fracture. They can cure as spontaneously.

23 Q. Or they can cause death?

24 A. Oh, yes.

25 Q. Doctor, given the types and amounts of

Page 13981

1 injuries that you read about in the material, that's

2 the testimony of the Prosecution witnesses, would you

3 expect -- would you have expected to see serious head

4 injuries?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Would you have expected to see life

7 threatening head injuries?

8 A. At least life threatening complications from

9 the injuries.

10 Q. When you say life threatening complications,

11 would -- those would be the things --

12 A. Either by infection or either by the

13 consequences of the trauma.

14 Q. And given the conditions in the camp and the

15 lack of medical care, would you expect in all

16 reasonable medical probability that there would have

17 been a significant number of either serious injuries or

18 deaths?

19 A. It's a logical estimation, yes.

20 Q. Okay. One of the things Witness R said, and

21 I will just read it to you word for word, because I am

22 not real sure what he meant, but we'll -- he says, "I

23 also know that --"

24 MS. McHENRY: May I just please have the page

25 number.

Page 13982

1 MR. MORAN: 124. It's page 7690 of the

2 transcript, lines 13 through 16. He says, "I also know

3 that people were beaten with pickaxes, with shovels,

4 any other objects that were around the camp."

5 Q. If someone is hit with a pickaxe, what's that

6 likely to do to him?

7 A. That's a trauma similar to baseball bat. The

8 difference is that this is a little bit more

9 flattened. It depends upon, if you put the thin

10 portion in contact with the skin, then the penetrating

11 effect of the blow is more serious than if you put it

12 rather flat against --

13 Q. Basically, it's a matter of physics, that the

14 narrower the area is, the more concentrated the energy

15 is transmitted?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Now, let's change subjects for a second.

18 Let's talk about burns. Burns caused by -- let's start

19 with flammable liquids, gasoline. What are the general

20 types of burns that one sees?

21 A. There are three types of burns. The first

22 degree burn is associated with hyperemesis, skin

23 becomes red and swelling. The second degree burn is

24 associated with blistering formation. Blistering

25 formation, the blisters can be infected and release

Page 13983

1 outside and usually do not pose a rather serious

2 infection. The third degree burns is when the skin,

3 the subcutaneous tissue, and even the muscles, and even

4 the bones can be involved. And there is more serious

5 consequences, mainly in the area of infection in the

6 third degree burns.

7 Q. Okay. And you can get infections in second

8 degree burns also, can't you?

9 A. Yes, but they are usually superficial.

10 Q. Okay. How about if one is living in

11 absolutely filthy living conditions?

12 A. Well, the chance for infection are more

13 prone, more possible. The possibilities, the

14 probability of infection increases.

15 Q. How about if there's no treatment?

16 A. First and second degrees can cure as

17 spontaneously. Third degree usually require treatment.

18 Q. How about if there's treatment like, for

19 instance, and I am referring to page 179 of the notes,

20 that the treatment would be the people -- that people

21 put tooth paste on a burn, an open burn. What would --

22 what's that going to do?

23 A. Toothpaste for burns, first and second, are

24 -- they are a good choice. They relieve the pain and

25 they reduce the inflammation at the same time.

Page 13984

1 Q. Now, if someone pours gasoline all over my

2 legs and lights it off and it burns for, say, 15, 20,

3 30 seconds, in all reasonable medical probability, what

4 kind of injuries am I going to suffer?

5 A. That has to come up with third degree.

6 Q. Now, third degree burn, that's where the skin

7 is charred?

8 A. Skin, subcutaneous tissue and muscles and

9 sometimes the bone.

10 Q. And --

11 MS. McHENRY: I am not objecting. I am just

12 wondering if counsel can tell me what section he is

13 referring to also.

14 MR. MORAN: Let's start with pages 179

15 through 80 of my notes.

16 Q. This is page 180. If someone described a

17 burn as a very bad burn, it looked like pine bark, it

18 was black, the wound was black and covered with blood.

19 Would that, in all likelihood, be a third degree burn?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. And if a person had a third degree burn which

22 was caused by gasoline, and was living in those

23 horrible living conditions that the Prosecution

24 witnesses described, and the only treatment was some

25 ointments that were put on the wound a few days later,

Page 13985

1 not immediately but a few days later, what is the

2 result likely to be? Let's start off with, would there

3 be infection, in all medical probability?

4 A. The infection is automatic in third degree

5 burns. They are infected from the beginning. If we

6 are talking about a gasoline spread in the skin and set

7 on fire and the skin and the subcutaneous tissue were

8 only involved in the depth of the burn, in that case,

9 even in this spontaneous cure can be expected. Of

10 course, they usually and they ideally, they usually

11 have to have treatment, medical treatment. But that

12 can be healed if the situation of hygiene in the camp

13 was so poor that the possibilities of infection and

14 that healing can linger in more than the normal, is

15 obvious. But the black discoloration and everything

16 depends upon the mix with pulse, with pus and blood.

17 Because they show haemorrhage very often. Of course,

18 there is a consequence, there is some degree of scars.

19 There is some scarring, the type of irregular scars in

20 that area. You don't go along with a third degree

21 burns, you don't go without a scar.

22 Q. Significant scarring?

23 A. Well, depends upon the depth and the area

24 taken.

25 Q. Would the type of medical treatment I

Page 13986

1 received influence the amount of scarring? For

2 instance, if I were in -- pick a great burn centre

3 hospital in America. The one you'd want to go to. If

4 I were in that hospital with third degree burns like

5 that, and I received skin grafting, would that create a

6 difference in the healing and the chance of infection

7 than if I did not have skin grafts?

8 A. Oh, yes.

9 Q. And if I did not have skin grafts over that

10 third degree burn, if I essentially had no medical

11 treatment, in filthy conditions, would the scar, in all

12 reasonable medical probability, be more massive or less

13 massive?

14 A. Well, the skin graft has to do with the

15 aesthetic problem. The skin graft doesn't have to do

16 with the healing. It's an aesthetic consideration.

17 The degree of scarring is a function of the -- how

18 large is the wound and how deep it is.

19 Q. Well, if it's deep enough that --

20 A. Delayed treatment brings more damage to the

21 tissue.

22 Q. Okay. How about no treatment?

23 A. No treatment brings more chance for

24 infection, more damage to the tissue, and if the third

25 degree burn is, for instance, one inch by half an inch

Page 13987

1 in the beginning, without treatment, it can come to

2 become a bigger area, because the infection that settle

3 there, therein, will amplify the tissue damage. And

4 the scarring is more irregular and bigger.

5 Q. And thinking of infection, in all reasonable

6 medical probability, if someone poured gasoline all

7 over my legs and set it on fire, and the wound was --

8 there was yellow liquid pouring from my leg, that's

9 page 171, and other people said that -- well, given

10 that, and given the living conditions that were

11 described by the witnesses for the Prosecution, given

12 the amount of food, the amount of water, the

13 cleanliness of the water that were described by the

14 witnesses of the Prosecution, is it, in all reasonable

15 medical probability, likely or unlikely that a serious

16 infection would develop?

17 A. Under these circumstances, general condition

18 of the body is poor and the healing process will be

19 poor too. If those things are poor, the infections

20 take over with more intensity and more facility. It's

21 easier for the infection to be produced. Of course,

22 there are people that have particular resistance to

23 infections and they react very well.

24 Q. But they are lucky?

25 A. Yes. That is why one --

Page 13988

1 JUDGE JAN: Unlucky to begin with.

2 MR. MORAN: Unlucky to begin with but lucky

3 later or blessed, I guess may be a better word, later

4 in the healing process.

5 Q. Doctor, would it be likely or unlikely that

6 one of these infections could get out of control?

7 A. Third degree burns, superficial, usually they

8 are under control. Without treatment and without

9 general conditions of the entire health, any infection

10 can come out of control.

11 Q. And if an infection like that gets out of

12 control and there is no medical treatment, what likely

13 occurs?

14 A. Well, most of the infections, complications

15 that they bring, the dangers is mainly in the lung,

16 pneumonia is one of the complications that they bring.

17 Not the only one, but there are many.

18 Q. And untreated pneumonia in a person in his

19 sixties, what's --

20 A. That prognosis is very, very serious

21 prognosis, life threatening.

22 Q. How about gangrene?

23 A. Gangrene is another possibility that --

24 particularly in the lower extremities.

25 Q. And if gangrene develops?

Page 13989

1 A. Well, you begin to lose the leg and later on

2 the life.

3 Q. Okay. Your Honour, this might be a good time

4 to take a break, if it's --

5 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Yes. Let me get this

6 from the doctor. How long does it take an open wound

7 to develop gangrene?

8 A. Judge, that depends upon if the wound has an

9 anaerobic micro-organism from the beginning. If the

10 wound is associated with an anaerobic micro-organism,

11 then that process can start with the wound at the same

12 time. You don't see the consequences, but if you are

13 -- later, but --

14 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: When does it really

15 manifest itself? Because it has a manifestation

16 period. When does that notice that a wound has --

17 A. There may be a time period where the

18 manifestation of the gangrene is not catch by the naked

19 eye. That is possible. But that is very, very

20 variable, because the different people behave different

21 in fighting back infections. It's very variable. It

22 depends upon how was the wound, how dirty was the

23 wound, how deep was the wound, and the aggressivity of

24 the micro-organism responsible for the gangrene.

25 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Is it usual to observe

Page 13990

1 that visibly within the first one week?

2 A. Oh, yes, yes. Yes.

3 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Any injury is common to

4 that stage. One can see it?

5 A. Yes. Yes. If the person is a diabetic, that

6 situation will come up more obvious.

7 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: That's a precondition.

8 A. Exactly. Exactly. You are right.

9 MR. MORAN: Your Honour, before the break,

10 can I follow up your question just a little bit, a

11 couple of minutes? It might be helpful and then we can

12 have our break.

13 Q. Doctor, on gangrene, if I have an injury to

14 my lower leg, and gangrene develops, first thing, how

15 long would it be in all likelihood that I would start

16 noticing it, if there were no medical care?

17 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: You are asking a

18 different question. The Trial Chamber will now rise.

19 MR. MORAN: Thank you, Your Honour.

20 --- Recess taken at 11.30 a.m.

21 --- On resuming at 12.00 p.m.

22 THE REGISTRAR: I remind you, sir, that you

23 are still under oath.

24 MR. MORAN: May it please the Court.

25 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Yes, you may proceed,

Page 13991

1 Mr. Moran.

2 MR. MORAN: Your Honour, first is a matter of

3 housekeeping. I had left some pages out of your

4 volumes, just by -- of those volumes. And with the

5 help of the registry and the usher, I have four copies

6 that can just be added to the back of the book. They

7 replace pages 248 through the end.

8 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: We have been grateful

9 for some good indexing.

10 MR. MORAN: I apologise, Your Honour. It's

11 -- I don't have my secretary here and, frankly, I

12 thought I was pretty good with the computer and a word

13 processing system, and I found out I am really not. It

14 took some of the wind out of my sails about my computer

15 experience and my computer skills, and I will apologise

16 for that.

17 One other housekeeping matter that the

18 Defence lawyers have asked me to bring to the Court's

19 attention. The clock behind me shows an incorrect

20 time, and the guards and security people, when they are

21 handling the accused, operate on the correct time. So,

22 basically, the break that the Trial Chamber took was,

23 from the accused's standpoint, about ten minutes

24 shorter than you intended. So it made it difficult for

25 them, especially given the -- two of them have to

Page 13992

1 change floors in this building --

2 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: I think we'll correct

3 it.

4 MR. MORAN: Yes, Your Honour, I just wanted

5 to bring it to your attention.

6 Q. Doctor, right before we broke, there was some

7 discussion about gangrene and how long it would take

8 for it to appear. And I'd like to follow that up just

9 a little bit. If I were to have a wound similar to the

10 one that was described with the -- looking like pine

11 bark and that type of thing caused by gasoline, and I

12 were living in the living conditions similar to those

13 that were described by the witnesses for the

14 Prosecution, and if there was no medical care, about

15 how long, in your estimation, would it be before the

16 first signs of gangrene started? I know it will vary

17 from person to person, but --

18 A. It's difficult to say, because everything

19 depends on the tissues destruction, the degree of

20 infection from the beginning, because not only those

21 micro-organism producing gangrene are present, there are

22 always present. And sometimes the presence of several

23 micro-organism, one counter arrest the other. So -- but

24 the main thing is that the situation require treatment,

25 the sooner the better. But it requires a few hours or

Page 13993

1 perhaps one day or more.

2 Q. If there's no treatment or no -- or very

3 little treatment, what are we going to start seeing?

4 Are we going to start seeing the leg discolour, are we

5 going to smell things, are we going to -- what physical

6 manifestations would I and people around me be able to

7 see?

8 A. The situations, the infection can go through

9 without gangrene and it may come with gangrene. If

10 there is a gangrene, the gangrene, the micro-organism

11 works very fast. It is very significant. And then you

12 have the discoloration, the tissue is coming black

13 little by little. And when the tissue is black, it's

14 because there is death of that tissue. We call that

15 necrosis. And the infection ensue into the area, later

16 on to the region, to the whole leg, and if you don't

17 cut the leg on time, then life is next.

18 Q. Okay. Now, doctor, if -- again using our

19 gasoline example. Is there a difference in the kinds

20 of burns if the gasoline is poured directly on my skin

21 or if the gasoline is poured on my pant leg?

22 A. Yes, there is a difference, because the

23 gasoline normally is a volatile substance. We all know

24 that. But if you pour on the clothes, and the clothes

25 get wet for a longer period of time, the longer the

Page 13994

1 contact, the more the chances to infiltrate the skin.

2 Q. Okay. Now, doctor, let me -- and for the

3 benefit of the Prosecution, we are looking at pages 176

4 to 77, I believe. We have some testimony from a man

5 named Nedeljko Draganic, and he describes that -- and

6 both on pages 173 and 176 and 77, describes the -- that

7 gasoline was poured on his pants, it was set on fire,

8 both his legs were burned, not allowed to put out the

9 fire, and the fire was sufficient that both of his

10 trouser legs -- "My trouser legs were completely burnt

11 out, both my legs had burnt." He further goes on to

12 say, "That after the fire a blister appeared and it

13 became infected. I was in a very bad state because of

14 all the dust around. It was full of pus all the time

15 and my leg was swollen."

16 And then the Prosecutor, who is Ms. McHenry

17 by the way, said, "How long did the leg remain in this

18 condition, infected and full of pus?" And his response

19 was, "Until I was released. I was released, I think,

20 on August 30th, in late August 30th or 31st of August."

21 And presume with me these injuries occurred

22 either in the end of June or early July. Given the

23 long-term infection and the pus all the time, what

24 would likely have been the result of that, when the

25 only treatment was starting about seven days after the

Page 13995

1 injury he was taken to an infirmary and the wounds were

2 cleaned slightly. And several times, we don't know how

3 often, the wounds were again cleaned. What would be

4 the likelihood of a serious infection developing from

5 that type of injury?

6 A. It sounds like an infection that is not

7 associated with gangrene, micro-organisms. It also

8 sounds that it's a battle between the local defences of

9 the patient versus the multiplication and action of the

10 micro-organism in that local area. It's like that they

11 are in a situation that one is not greater than the

12 other, and infection is maintained local, in local

13 level, without spreading from there. That's what it

14 does look like. After the treatment was began, we have

15 the situation, is this treatment the ideal one or was

16 poor. It sounds like poor treatment has been

17 administered in this case. So the infection on these

18 circumstances can linger a little bit.

19 Q. Would it likely be a serious,

20 life-threatening infection, or would it be a --

21 A. Potentially, all these infections are

22 potentially dangerous, because they are subject to

23 complications, septicaemia, endocarditis and pneumonia,

24 even the possibility to produce thrombosis or

25 thrombi in the vein legs, and these thrombi can travel

Page 13996

1 to the lung and produce thrombo-embolism. Complications

2 like that are possible.

3 Q. Possible or likely?

4 A. Possible. Possible. They may or may not

5 occur.

6 Q. Okay. Now, given the fact of the conditions

7 that were described by the witnesses for the

8 Prosecution, the food, the water, the heat, all these

9 things we talked about all morning, does these serious

10 complications become more or less likely?

11 A. More.

12 Q. A lot more or a little more?

13 A. More. One degree or the other. It depends

14 upon the natural resistance of the patient, the natural

15 abilities of the immunological system to fight back

16 infections.

17 Q. By the way, before I forget, during the break

18 did we discuss your testimony at all?

19 A. No.

20 Q. Okay. Now, doctor, we discussed last night

21 burns with a fuse, a fuse being wrapped around a

22 person's body and what kind of injuries that would

23 cause. Based on your training and experience, do you

24 have any kind of opinion on what kind of injuries that

25 would cause?

Page 13997

1 A. Well, if this is connected and they produce

2 heat, and they are able to produce burns.

3 Q. But you have never seen this kind of thing is

4 what I am getting at?

5 A. No, I have never seen a burn related to this

6 issue, no, related to this subject.

7 Q. So it's, essentially, outside your expertise?

8 A. Well, in the -- in terms that --

9 JUDGE JAN: Not expertise, experience

10 MR. MORAN: That's right. His expertise is --

11 Judge Jan, Dr. Bellas has helped with several of my

12 clients in the penitentiary, and he's helped with a

13 couple of them on death row, so I know his experience

14 and his expertise. So you are correct, it's the

15 expertise -- experience, rather, not the expertise.

16 Q. It's outside of your experience?

17 A. I am not experienced with these metal devices

18 or whatever they are called. But, in general, the

19 situation, that it can come hot, it can come with high

20 temperature, they can produce first, second, third

21 degree burns. Everything depends how long they are in

22 contact.

23 Q. Let me jump to another subject. This is

24 going to be on pages 185 and 186 of the notes. Doctor,

25 this has to do with burns caused by synthetic clothing,

Page 13998

1 in this case a track suit made of synthetic fibre. And

2 the witness, who is Witness N, Mr. N, testified that a

3 heated knife was placed on his thigh and melted his

4 synthetic track suit. And he says there was a knife --

5 "He burnt me with a heated knife on my thighs, through

6 the track suit, which was synthetic, and while the

7 synthetic burned, the burn widened."

8 Doctor, what happens when synthetic fibres

9 become hot or burn? Does that create a different kind

10 of burn than other types of fabrics?

11 A. You burn them and they are in contact with

12 the skin. They have to produce -- they will tend to

13 produce third degree burns in a short time.

14 Q. And are these kinds of burns worse than, for

15 instance, if you were wearing a cotton pair of pants,

16 would it be different or worse than if you were wearing

17 synthetic pants?

18 A. Everything depends on the contact with. In

19 the case of synthetic fibres, they melt and they adhere

20 to the skin more than cotton, other clothing. But,

21 essentially, everything depends upon the exposure time.

22 Q. Well, suppose that the Witness N, which he

23 does say, and on page 186 of my notes, says that, "The

24 burns began to fester because in the hangar there was

25 also dust," and he says, "All this festers and it

Page 13999

1 started to smell and I could not --" and then he says,

2 "After that, several days, I was taken to the

3 infirmary." And he says that the doctors, "Didn't have

4 enough, so they were only able to bandage it and it

5 still hurt terribly. Then the wounds would reopen.

6 There was blood, there was haemorrhaging."

7 What kind of -- given what he had to say --

8 A. That is consistent with third degree burns,

9 with secondary infection.

10 Q. And, again, that's the kind of thing that

11 could lead to serious or even life-threatening --

12 A. It may.

13 Q. And given the conditions in the camp, would

14 it be more or less likely that these serious,

15 life-threatening --

16 A. I would say a contributing factor to the

17 infection to linger in.

18 Q. All right. And two last areas, and I think

19 we are done. Several of the witnesses -- by the way,

20 let's step back just a second. On Witness N, this man

21 who burned his leg and had this third degree burn. If

22 he were beaten regularly, would that change the likely

23 outcome, the likely prognosis for both the injuries

24 from the beating and the injuries from the burn?

25 A. It does, because beaten, particularly on a

Page 14000

1 daily basis, produce a kind of depression and

2 humiliation inside the -- yourself self-esteem inside,

3 and that has to do with your general health and with

4 the response to infections. It will decrease your

5 ability to fight back infections, yes.

6 Q. Okay. Now, Witness N also testifies, and

7 this is on page 18, that he was taken out and put in a

8 gas mask, and a valve was turned off so that he could

9 not get fresh air, and he was beaten. How would this

10 gas mask, where you could not get fresh air, how would

11 that effect the outcome of the beating, if at all?

12 A. Well, in this case we have -- we are dealing

13 with a potential death by asphyxia. If the mask is in

14 such a way put over the head that the air cannot come

15 in, cannot come out, you will expend the air, the

16 oxygen in that little space in a short time, I would

17 say one minute or less. If you stay with that mask

18 around your neck or your head with no air in, no air

19 out, five minutes, that is sufficient to produce

20 death. Brain cells will not allow lack of oxygen five

21 minutes. After five minutes without oxygen supply,

22 they can -- death is there. At least brain death.

23 Q. When you say brain death, what is brain

24 death?

25 JUDGE JAN: Death is death.

Page 14001

1 MR. MORAN: But his heart may still be

2 beating, Your Honour.

3 Q. Is that correct, doctor?

4 A. Yes. The brain -- because the brain is the

5 first in line, it's the most sensible cell in the body

6 to die is the nerve cell.

7 Q. Would the fact that someone is being beaten

8 while he is being deprived of oxygen, would that change

9 the amount of time it would take for asphyxia to ensue?

10 A. The asphyxiation will be independent of the

11 blows. What happened here is that the respiration

12 will continue inside the mask. The carbon dioxide will

13 accumulate under these circumstances inside the mask

14 and, after half a minute or so, the only thing that

15 he's breathing is carbon dioxide. Carbon dioxide

16 produce a kind of anaesthesia and you are in coma in a

17 short time.

18 Q. So about how long would it take, given the

19 circumstances, for unconsciousness to ensue, based just

20 on the carbon dioxide part?

21 A. The unconscious can be developed in the first

22 five minutes, not necessarily death, particularly if

23 there is any leak through the neck, that some air,

24 under these circumstances could come in, and -- but we

25 call that necrosis associated with carbon monoxide or

Page 14002

1 accumulation of carbon monoxide in the blood.

2 Q. I think one last thing. We may have touched

3 on it, but I want to get into it in a little bit more

4 detail. There is testimony from the witnesses, and

5 this is going to be on the new pages I just gave the

6 Court, it's going to be on pages 250 and 252. It has

7 to do with drinking water. And there was testimony

8 that not only was the drinking water short --

9 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Which page is that?

10 MR. MORAN: Your Honour, it's the -- yes,

11 Your Honour, it's pages 250 and 252. Those were the

12 ones I just provided the Trial Chamber.

13 Q. That there was testimony that the water that

14 the inmates were given was so dirty that there were

15 pieces of faeces in it, and there was also testimony

16 that the water was used by people in the neighbourhood

17 of the Celebici barracks for bathing, and because of

18 that they even found tampons in the water.

19 So given water that is so dirty that people

20 are drinking pieces of faeces, and there's also been

21 some testimony, and that would be on pages -- where is

22 it -- 247 and 48, about a filthy floor and excrement.

23 And if a spoon fell on the floor, you would have to

24 pick it up and use it to eat with. Would that kind of

25 condition likely lead to the spread of infectious

Page 14003

1 diseases? And I'll give a couple of examples. If you

2 have more, you are the doctor, I am not. Cholera,

3 hepatitis, that kind of thing.

4 A. Yes, it would.

5 Q. It would be introduced from the outside of

6 the camp through the water or the food?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. And given the conditions that were described

9 by the witnesses for the Prosecution, would it be

10 likely or unlikely that there would be a, for lack of a

11 better term, epidemic?

12 A. The answer would be yes if, in particular, if

13 everybody there is taking the same water. If he is the

14 only one taking that type of water, the epidemic is

15 still a possibility, because there is so many people

16 crowded in a small area. But in both cases, if

17 everybody is taking that water, the possibilities of --

18 increases with time. The more the days that they are

19 taking the water, the more the chances to have any

20 serious local epidemic there.

21 Q. Let me add a couple of facts for you.

22 Presume with me for a second that in hangar 6, where

23 there is, say, 250 people, there is five spoons and

24 they all have to share the same five spoons and they

25 are all eating out of the same container. Would that

Page 14004

1 increase or decrease the chance of an epidemic?

2 A. It will increase, yes.

3 Q. A lot or a little?

4 A. A lot.

5 Q. And on cholera, for instance, and I am

6 asking, because I don't know, what's the incubation

7 period for cholera, roughly?

8 A. Cholera, it's about six to twelve hours.

9 Q. Okay. And hepatitis, I understand, has a

10 much longer incubation period, hepatitis A?

11 A. Hepatitis A or so-called infectious hepatitis

12 is -- requires about 40, 45 days incubation. It may be

13 a little bit short, it may be a little longer, but

14 around that.

15 Q. If these people were being starved and

16 beaten, as they described, would it be -- would it make

17 the chances of an outbreak of these kinds of infectious

18 diseases caused by the water supply that they

19 described, would it make it more or less likely?

20 A. More.

21 Q. How much more?

22 A. Significant.

23 Q. And given the conditions that they described,

24 and given that there is either no or very inadequate

25 medical care, in all reasonable medical probability,

Page 14005

1 doctor, would there be deaths caused by these

2 infectious diseases?

3 A. It may happen, yes.

4 Q. How many would you expect, out of about 250

5 people?

6 A. Well, it's very hard for me to go on a

7 statistic, but at least serious situations, critical

8 situations, very serious and critical situation

9 stemming from this situation that you have explained,

10 will be a logical consequence. A very serious

11 situation.

12 Q. Would you expect to see --

13 A. Many deaths.

14 Q. Would you expect to see more than ten deaths,

15 given the conditions in the camp?

16 A. Well --

17 Q. From infectious diseases, solely.

18 A. Because between death and the first

19 manifestation of the infection, be it diarrhoea or

20 whatever, there is a gamma of situation, vomiting,

21 people that about to die. In other words, you expect a

22 gamma of abundant number of cases with serious problems

23 inside the hangar.

24 Q. Would you expect lay people, people like me,

25 who don't know anything at all about medicine, who were

Page 14006

1 in that hangar, to notice if someone got hepatitis or

2 if he got cholera or if he got one of these infectious

3 diseases?

4 A. The contamination under the circumstances is

5 anywhere in the area.

6 Q. Would it be likely it would be something I

7 would notice and remember?

8 A. Excuse me?

9 Q. If I were a witness to this, if I were in

10 this building all day, every day, and there were these

11 kinds of infectious diseases going around, would it be

12 the kind of thing I would notice, I would see, as a

13 layman?

14 A. Well, I think that, yes, absolutely.

15 Q. You think it would be the kind of thing I

16 would remember?

17 A. You would.

18 Q. One other thing, and this is not included in

19 the excerpt, because, frankly, I found it last night on

20 the computer and then lost it again.

21 Doctor, there has been some testimony, and

22 Ms. McHenry has a copy of some of it, that a person

23 named Scepo Gotovac died, was tossed into the hangar

24 and died, and that he lay in this hangar for three

25 days. And one of the witnesses for the Prosecutor said

Page 14007

1 that he knew he was dead because he wasn't moving and

2 he wasn't breathing. Given the conditions that were

3 described by those Prosecution witnesses, if a person,

4 if a body were in that hangar in the summer of 1992, is

5 it likely that a lay person would notice other things,

6 besides the lack of movement and lack of breathing, to

7 indicate that someone was dead?

8 A. Three days?

9 Q. Three days. Make it two. Cut it down. Make

10 it two days.

11 A. This is a person that was brought

12 unconsciousness, right?

13 Q. Brought unconscious into the --

14 A. And was laying on the ground there three

15 days?

16 Q. Two to three days dead.

17 A. Two to three days. Maybe he come in in a

18 deep coma with a very superficial respiration, probably

19 not real noticed by the people around him, with a very,

20 very weak cardiovascular activity, so the pulse

21 probably not be -- unless you are a physician and you

22 look for another --

23 Q. Sure.

24 A. But providing there were no physicians

25 inside --

Page 14008

1 Q. There were no doctors around.

2 A. He may be probably some hours in coma, and

3 there was a point that when the death come, nobody

4 notice that transaction or problem. But considering

5 that we are dealing summertime and we are in hangar and

6 the outside temperature is about 90 degrees.

7 Q. Fahrenheit?

8 A. Fahrenheit. And this is not an area that is

9 ventilated or so. If this man died upon the moment

10 that he was put in the ground, on the very moment he

11 was already dead --

12 Q. Or died shortly thereafter.

13 A. Or died shortly thereafter, say, two, three,

14 four hours, or six, at about 24 hours post-mortem period

15 there would be signals of decomposition, like swelling,

16 discoloration of the skin. And close to

17 24 hours or after 24 hours there will be a bad smell.

18 Q. Is it the kind of thing that a layman would

19 notice?

20 A. I think that a dead body, that anyone can

21 see, maybe an animal or a human, is noticed when it

22 decompose. But the fact of the matter is that

23 decomposition take place post-mortem much more rapidly

24 when the environmental temperature is high.

25 Q. And is it the kind of thing that somebody

Page 14009

1 would remember?

2 A. Yes, it would.

3 Q. And I guess I am going to go into your

4 experience as a witness as opposed to your experience

5 as a doctor. Is it the kind of thing that as a

6 witness, if you were asked how you knew someone was

7 dead, it would be the kind of thing that you would

8 remember to tell a jury or a judge?

9 MS. McHENRY: Objection, Your Honour. I

10 think those are matters for Your Honours' common sense

11 and credibility, and it's absolutely inappropriate to

12 ask this witness to testify about it.

13 MR. MORAN: I'll withdraw the question. Your

14 Honour, I pass the witness.

15 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Any cross-examination of

16 this witness?

17 MS. RESIDOVIC: Your Honour, the Defence of

18 Mr. Zejnil Delalic has no questions for this witness.

19 Thank you.

20 MR. DURIC: The Defence of Mr. Mucic has no

21 questions for this witness either. Thank you.

22 Cross-examined by Ms. McMurrey

23 Q. I don't want to frighten Judge Jan, but my

24 desk is so much of a mess it's just easier to come with

25 a couple of papers here and be a little better

Page 14010

1 organised?

2 JUDGE JAN: I am not frightened.

3 MS. McMURREY: Okay, good.

4 JUDGE JAN: Pleasure to see you

5 cross-examining witnesses.

6 MS. McMURREY: Thank you very much. Do I

7 have a few questions.

8 Q. Dr. Bellas, today was the first time you and

9 I ever had any discussions about any evidence or any

10 issues relevant to this case; isn't that true?

11 A. That is correct.

12 Q. And with the help of the registrar and the

13 usher, I would like to show this witness a piece of

14 evidence that was admitted, marked D2/4. I just want

15 to add about the gangrene earlier. My only experience,

16 I won't be able to question you about it, is Ernest

17 Hemmingway Mount Kilimanjaro. Now, Dr. Bellas, this is

18 a photograph of a Prosecution witness named Mirko

19 Babic, and it's a photograph of his leg. Does this

20 photograph, to you, represent what could be a burn

21 scar?

22 A. It seems to me that there is a superficial

23 scarring in the area. I am going to say in the upper

24 third of the portion of the leg depicted here. There

25 is an area that -- there is traces of scarring, that

Page 14011

1 they may be consistent with healed burns. Probably

2 superficial type of third degree burns. They don't

3 look like those scarring that are associated with deep

4 tissue destruction.

5 I also notice that around this area and still

6 below the area, and above the area, I saw areas of

7 hyperaemia. Hyperaemia, I mean reddish discoloration.

8 That seems to me not associated with that scarring. In

9 other words, this scarring is -- has the gross

10 appearance of something that this being -- healing

11 process is over.

12 Q. And the other red areas on this leg besides

13 the fact that you said it could be some kind of

14 circulatory problem of this person, is there any

15 evidence that it could be some kind of determine

16 dermatitis or some kind of eczema or some kind of skin

17 irritation that has nothing to do with a burn scar.

18 A. I cannot be 100 percent sure what is this,

19 unless I examine both legs of the patient. But it can

20 come consistent with the two situations.

21 Q. Also, if there were a burn scar, is it

22 possible, by looking at a burn scar in 1998, to

23 determine how old that scar was, or when it occurred?

24 A. No. After the healing is over, the time

25 frame cannot be established. You can say I have this

Page 14012

1 one year ago, it's believable. If you tell me five

2 years, it's also believable. So after the scarring is

3 finished, that stay there like there for a long time

4 without more changes.

5 Q. In fact, you could say that that scar

6 happened 20 years ago, and it could still be

7 believable, wouldn't it?

8 A. I would believe that. I am not reluctant to

9 accept.

10 Q. I want to ask you just a few more questions

11 about a third degree burn. Some of the results of a

12 third degree burn could be shock or fever. The body

13 can actually go into shock, can't it?

14 A. Well, the situation of fever and shock while

15 in the middle of or in the process of a third degree

16 burn is associated with the infection. The

17 micro-organism produce toxins that can drop your blood

18 pressure. Sometimes, all of a sudden it's -- shock and

19 death, rapid death. But sometimes it doesn't work that

20 way. And the fever may be associated with a local

21 infection of the area or there is another area that is

22 already with infection and we call that the primary

23 focus of infection. The other area may be a pneumonia,

24 endocarditis or some infection complication stemming

25 from the third degree wound. In other words, you don't

Page 14013

1 have fever, you don't have shock because you have

2 exactly the open wound called third degree burn. It's

3 the fact that the third degree burn is associated with

4 infection and infection is responsible for the shock

5 and the fever.

6 Q. Thank you. I'd like to ask the usher to take

7 this exhibit and provide it to the Trial Chamber at

8 this point. I am going to ask, just so that they

9 refresh their memory about the photograph. And I would

10 like to ask Dr. Bellas, if this witness testified,

11 which he did, that he pulled his -- he rolled his pants

12 up and then petrol was poured on his leg, that would

13 make a great difference in the type of burn that would

14 have occurred versus if the pant leg had been set on

15 fire with the pant leg down. That would be because the

16 leg is not absorbent, so once a petrol would have been

17 poured on the leg, then the petrol would have begun the

18 evaporation process, so there would not have been a

19 very long burn at that point, would there?

20 A. There is only one single application of gas,

21 gasoline over there, without pants, right. If that is

22 the only thing, I do not expect a third degree burn. I

23 would expect a third degree burn when there is more

24 time of exposure with the irritant substance and

25 subsequent infection.

Page 14014

1 Q. And with a pant leg down, the material in the

2 pant itself would have absorbed the petrol, which would

3 have made the burn last a lot longer, wouldn't it?

4 A. The evaporation will delay if you are dealing

5 with the cloth and then the evident substance over the

6 leg will be longer. And the time of exposure is very

7 critical in the production of burns in general.

8 Q. Thank you. At the break, at 11.30 today, I

9 asked you to look at the hand of Mr. Esad Landzo,

10 didn't I?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. And when you took a look at the hand, we

13 described the kind of injury that Mr. Esad Landzo had

14 experienced in 1991. And the results that you saw of

15 Mr. Landzo just then, is this result -- is this a

16 normal result from the severing of the tendons of the

17 third, fourth and fifth digits of his right hand, would

18 you say?

19 MS. McHENRY: Okay. Before the witness

20 answers. I find this, frankly, unbelievable that

21 during the break of Court the witness is asked to look

22 at the accused and then give his expert opinion. She

23 has not indicated that this person is going to be an

24 expert witness with -- regarding Mr. Landzo's hand. We

25 certainly have no report. We don't know exactly what

Page 14015

1 was said to him and not said to him. So, as I told

2 Ms. McMurrey during the break, we are absolutely going

3 to object to any attempt to have this witness become an

4 expert witness about Mr. Landzo's hand.

5 MS. McMURREY: Your Honour, if I may

6 respond. My response to Ms. McHenry was go ahead and

7 object, because this witness, with all of his

8 qualifications, his medical experience in the hospital

9 in Cuba, his years of medical examiner, his years of

10 being able to testify about the results, although he's

11 not here as a hand specialist, he can surely testify

12 whether this result is consistent with the kind of

13 injuries that we are talking about. I am not going to

14 ask him to form an opinion as to whether Mr. Landzo

15 could use that hand, or the extent of his use of that

16 hand. But as a doctor, a medical doctor, based on his

17 curriculum vitae, he can certainly say whether this

18 result is consistent with the kind of injury that he

19 sustained in 1991.

20 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Would the Prosecution

21 not require notice for that?

22 MS. McMURREY: Your Honour, I am not using

23 him as an expert witness -- although he is designated

24 by this Court as an expert witness, I don't see what

25 the difference is, him talking about a hypothetical

Page 14016

1 situation in the Celebici barracks, versus actually

2 being able to say whether that's a necessary -- that is

3 a common result of the kind of injuries sustained. And

4 as far as a result goes --

5 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: You are still not

6 listening to my question, whether the Prosecution does

7 not require notice for this type of evidence which you

8 are trying to let him give.

9 MS. McMURREY: Well, Your Honour, they

10 received notice from Mr. Delic that he was going to be

11 here as an expert, and I am just trying to utilise the

12 expert that is on the stand right now, because of his

13 expertise in that field, I am not asking him to say

14 whether Mr. Landzo could have done that, only that it's

15 a natural result of the injury he sustained in 1991.

16 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: You are still asking him

17 to give an opinion on the condition of Landzo. That's

18 what you are doing. And this accused person -- the

19 Prosecution is entitled to notice. If you want to give

20 expert evidence about accused persons, let them know.

21 And then they will have their own reaction to that.

22 MS. McMURREY: I am suffering the

23 consequences of Ms. McHenry's reaction right now. But

24 my only argument to the Court is that he is an expert,

25 he's been recognised by the Court as an expert --

Page 14017

1 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: That's an improper

2 answer to an objection. This is what I am saying.

3 It's not an answer to her objection. They have not

4 been notified that such evidence would be given, when

5 they are entitled to such a notice.

6 MS. McMURREY: Well, it's my submission that

7 when an expert is designated by the Court, that the

8 Prosecution should be able to draw a conclusion that,

9 while they are here, they would be asked to answer

10 questions from all four defendants, and --

11 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Such casual measures of

12 practice is not desirable, and there are rules which we

13 expect you to comply with. Before you introduce this

14 evidence, you better do that.

15 MS. McMURREY: All right, Your Honour, I

16 accept that I will not be able to go into that line of

17 questioning and I thank you, Dr. Bellas, for being

18 here. Muchas gracias.

19 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Any cross-examination?

20 MS. McHENRY: Your Honour, there will be some

21 cross-examination. After hearing the testimony, I do

22 not think it will be extensive and I will not be asking

23 for a lengthy continuation. But with respect to the

24 amount of material that we received in advance, and

25 some of the witness's specific questions, I will be

Page 14018

1 asking for a brief continuance before I begin my

2 cross-examination. In particular, I would be asking

3 for a continuation just until tomorrow.

4 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Ms. McHenry, I think you

5 are familiar with all the excerpts that we have here

6 and they are things which you have gone through and in

7 a moment's reflection you can easily remember. They

8 are your witnesses and there is nothing additional to

9 any of this. And it is on the basis of these excerpts

10 that the opinion has been sought. I don't see why it

11 should be so difficult for you.

12 MS. McHENRY: It won't be difficult. One of

13 the things though, for instance, that I might want to

14 do, Your Honour, just let me tell you, is with respect

15 to some of the excerpts, there is additional material

16 that's very relevant, including sometimes even medical

17 examinations, and I --

18 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: We have some time

19 between now and 2.30. You might do some short work on

20 that. And let's continue with our cross-examination at

21 that time.

22 MR. MORAN: Your Honour, just for the record,

23 Dr. Bellas has met with Ms. McHenry for a short time

24 this morning, and if it doesn't interfere with either

25 of their lunches, I'm sure that Dr. Bellas would be

Page 14019

1 happy to meet with her again during the luncheon break,

2 if she so desires. I think we can work something out.

3 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: I'm sure -- it won't be

4 difficult. She can get it done.

5 MR. MORAN: Yes, Your Honour. I agree.

6 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Yes. There's nothing

7 too new or too strange in all the opinions given. I'm

8 sure you can deal with it.

9 The Trial Chamber will now rise and

10 reassemble at 2.30.
















Page 14020

1 --- Luncheon recess taken at 1.50

2 --- On resuming at 2.3 5 p.m.

3 THE REGISTRAR: I remind you, sir, that you

4 are still under oath.

5 MS. RESIDOVIC: Your Honours, before my

6 colleague starts the cross-examination, may I address

7 you? My colleague, Eugene O'Sullivan, will not be

8 present here this afternoon. And, therefore, I would

9 like to inform you about this. Thanks very much.

10 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Thank you very much.

11 Yes, Mrs. McHenry, you may proceed now

12 Cross-examined by Ms. McHenry

13 Q. Thank you, Your Honours.

14 Good afternoon, sir.

15 A. Good afternoon.

16 Q. As I indicated to you just right before the

17 judges came in, I found your testimony to be

18 interesting, helpful in reaching justice and not

19 controversial, so my questions will not be long and I

20 won't be asking you to repeat to anything you have

21 already testified about. What I want to do is just

22 make sure that certain conclusions I drew, from what

23 you said, are correct, and then to ask you just some

24 questions about the material that you were given access

25 to in forming your opinions. Just so you know where I

Page 14021

1 am going.

2 Now, sir, in response to various questions by

3 Mr. Moran, you sometimes talked about a reasonable

4 medical probability. And you explained that term in

5 the beginning of your testimony, and I don't have

6 questions about that. But I noted that in response to

7 a large number of other questions asked by Mr. Moran,

8 rather than talk about a reasonable medical

9 probability, you just said a certain -- a particular

10 result may occur or might occur.

11 Now, I understand that to mean that a result

12 may occur and it may not occur, and am I correct, then,

13 that when you use the term "may" and say that something

14 may result, you are not necessarily saying that there's

15 a medical probability that it would result?

16 A. That is correct. May or may not. Yes.

17 Q. Thank you. Now, you talked about water some,

18 and the conditions of water. Were those portions of

19 the transcript excerpts that said that conditions

20 changed about how frequently water was and was not

21 available changed, and that sometimes the prisoners

22 were allowed to keep water overnight, sometimes they

23 were not. Sometimes they were allowed one litre of

24 water per person a day, sometimes they were not. Were

25 all those portions of the transcript given to you?

Page 14022

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. And with respect to the lack of water, did

3 you read anything that indicated that persons received

4 no water, or did you read excerpts that indicated that

5 persons did not receive what they considered sufficient

6 water?

7 A. In some portions I read little water,

8 sometimes enough water. I consider, yes, both are

9 present.

10 Q. Now, you indicated that heat exhaustion is

11 one thing that can happen as a result of insufficient

12 water, and heat stroke, which Mr. Moran asked you about

13 in great detail, is really the most severe result. Am

14 I correct that both heat exhaustion, heat stroke, as

15 well as things in between, can be the result of having

16 insufficient water?

17 A. The primary thing is the high environmental

18 temperature. That is the primary trigger that pulled

19 the trigger. Now, if under these circumstances at that

20 particular time the water supply is poor, then we have

21 more chances to develop the so-called exertion or heat

22 stroke. The possibilities increase.

23 Q. What are the symptoms of heat exhaustion?

24 A. Well, it's -- to begin with, very, say,

25 excessive sweating, difficulties in breathing, and the

Page 14023

1 patient filled with very, very little energy to move

2 and they -- everything comes down, shall we say. And a

3 little bit of high temperature.

4 Q. Am I correct, sir, that the fact that large

5 numbers of persons did not die of heat stroke, does not

6 mean that the persons had sufficient water for humane

7 or healthy conditions?

8 A. There are two factors that help in terms of

9 previous medical condition. Coronary heart disease or

10 any cardiovascular problem in an individual constitute

11 a factor that will favour the development of heat

12 exertion or heat stroke. But, again, the primary

13 problem is the environmental temperature.

14 Q. And similarly, sir, would you agree with me

15 that the fact that a person was not starved to death in

16 the extreme manner that the detainees in Auschwitz

17 suffered from, does not mean medically that the persons

18 are receiving adequate nutrition?

19 A. Correct.

20 Q. And you would agree that the fact that large

21 -- that persons lose a significant amount of weight

22 may be an indication that they are not receiving

23 adequate nutrition?

24 A. Yes. In the absence of disease, yes.

25 Q. Now, you talked about the fact that given the

Page 14024

1 conditions in the camp, infectious diseases -- excuse

2 me, infectious diseases were possible, and you gave

3 some examples. Did I understand you correctly that

4 diarrhoea is an example of -- can be an example of an

5 infectious disease?

6 A. Correct.

7 Q. Now, you also mentioned cholera as another

8 example after infectious disease and Mr. Moran asked

9 you a number of questions about cholera in particular.

10 Now, I understand that cholera is an infectious

11 disease, and given the conditions in the camp, if

12 someone had cholera, it is more likely that because of

13 conditions that the cholera would spread. My question

14 is: Am I correct that you are not stating that one

15 would expect to a reasonable medical probability that

16 there would, in fact, be a cholera epidemic in the

17 camp?

18 A. That is correct.

19 Q. Am I correct that you were provided with

20 access to numerous excerpts in the transcripts

21 indicating that large numbers of prisoners did suffer

22 from diarrhoea?

23 A. Yes, some of them had diarrhoea, yes.

24 Q. Now, again, there was a lot of discussion of

25 gangrene, and you stated that it's a possible result

Page 14025

1 from open cuts and burns. Now, I take it that you

2 would agree with me that there are many open wounds

3 that do not develop gangrene, and gangrene is not

4 necessarily the most likely result?

5 A. Correct.

6 Q. Now, you were asked about blunt trauma. And

7 I understand, with respect to individual cases, it's

8 difficult to be precise because you haven't examined

9 the patient, and, as you said, so much depends on the

10 individual resistance of a person. My question is:

11 Would you agree that the injuries likely to occur from

12 blunt trauma would depend on the force that was used?

13 A. Yes, it is.

14 Q. Now, one particular case you were asked about

15 in detail by Mr. Moran concerned a Mr. Novica Dordic,

16 and I am referring counsel to pages 30 to 31 of the

17 material. Man that was beaten with a baseball bat on

18 his back area. Now, among other things, Mr. Moran

19 asked you about rib fractures. My question is, were

20 you provided access with the medical examination done

21 while Mr. Dordic was here, and it's in evidence,

22 showing that there was evidence that his ribs had been

23 fractured previously?

24 A. No, I haven't. Just the transcripts.

25 Q. And would you agree with me that if the

Page 14026

1 medical report, which is in evidence, showed that

2 Mr. Dordic had received rib fractures, or there was

3 evidence of prior rib fractures, there's nothing

4 inconsistent about that, in your opinion?

5 A. Correct.

6 Q. Again, I am going to ask about a specific.

7 Mr. Moran asked you about Witness R, and I am referring

8 to pages 120 and 124 of the material. And Witness R is

9 the person who talked about being -- he and other

10 persons were badly beaten by a wall with a variety of

11 instruments. And Mr. Moran asked you some questions

12 about whether some of the victims might be expected to

13 lose consciousness or even to experience life

14 threatening injuries. Did Mr. Moran provide you access

15 to those portions of the transcript indicating that

16 some persons did lose consciousness and, indeed, some

17 people died as a result of these beatings?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. And, am I correct that there's nothing

20 inconsistent with that evidence and your opinion?

21 A. That is correct.

22 Q. Finally, with respect to a Mr. Scepo Gotovac,

23 who was in the hangar for two to three days and you

24 testified concerning there would be an obvious smell

25 after two days. You also indicated that he could have

Page 14027

1 first been in a deep coma and then slipped into death

2 without the witnesses noticing that transition. Do I

3 understand you, that you don't have information

4 indicating when Mr. Gotovac may have actually died

5 during that two-day period, two- or three-day period?

6 A. Correct.

7 Q. Now, you also indicated that, in your

8 opinion, about approximately how long it would take for

9 the smell to become noticeable, was based on the

10 assumption that it was about 90 degrees Fahrenheit

11 during those two to three days.

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. And am I correct that you have no specific

14 information about the temperature, other than that it

15 was a hot summer, and that if the temperature was less,

16 was lower, it would take longer for the smell to become

17 obvious?

18 A. You are correct.

19 Q. And would you also agree with me that if 250

20 men were kept in a hangar with almost no change of

21 clothing, and little opportunity to bathe, there would

22 be other smells in the hangar also?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Now, again with respect to Nedeljko

25 Draganic. You testified about what his burn, and what

Page 14028

1 would have been likely, and that you would believe that

2 it was a third degree burn. Did you have access to the

3 medical report done while the witness was here and in

4 evidence, which describes Mr. Draganic's scar as

5 partially a deep second degree and partially as a third

6 degree burn wound?

7 A. No, just the transcripts.

8 Q. And would you agree that there's nothing in

9 that medical report that would be inconsistent with

10 your opinion?

11 A. That is correct.

12 Q. And, finally, with respect to Mirko Babic, am

13 I correct now that you were not given access to the

14 medical examination where the doctor found a scar

15 indicating a prior third degree burn and noting that

16 the -- anamnesis and examination of the scar fit very

17 well with the description of the witness of how he

18 suffered that burn? Were you given access that medical

19 report?

20 A. Excuse me. I didn't -- your question is on

21 the -- how it occur or --

22 Q. No, my question is: Were you given access to

23 the medical examination --

24 A. Oh, no. No.

25 Q. Okay. And is there anything inconsistent

Page 14029

1 with your opinion and of the opinion of the doctor who

2 examined him here about --

3 A. No. No.

4 Q. Thank you. No further questions.

5 MR. MORAN: Your Honour, a few on

6 re-examination. Just a very, very few and I think

7 we'll be done.

8 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone to the counsel,

9 please.

10 JUDGE JAN: I want to ask a question. If 250

11 persons are confined in a hangar, which has only iron

12 walls, the heat outside being fairly high, the

13 temperature being fairly high, would not the person

14 inside, without little ventilation, suffer from heat

15 exhaustion?

16 A. Yes, it can. The temperature inside is

17 usually higher than outside.

18 JUDGE JAN: Yes, but the 250 persons confined

19 in that place --

20 A. Absolutely.

21 JUDGE JAN: The temperature will be much

22 higher inside?

23 A. Yes.

24 MR. MORAN: Your Honour, if I could follow up

25 on that for a second.

Page 14030

1 JUDGE JAN: You really want to follow it up?

2 MR. MORAN: I was going to get into heat

3 stroke.

4 Q. Doctor, remember when Ms. McHenry asked you

5 about some days they received no water and maybe other

6 days they received a litre of water.

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Now, under the conditions that were

9 described, how much water would I have to drink or

10 would a person have to drink to replace the fluids one

11 would normally lose through perspiration and other ways

12 one loses water through the day? Would it be one

13 litre, two litres, three litres?

14 A. If a person is confining daily, particularly

15 in this space, constricted area, the needs of water

16 come down a little bit because of physical activity is

17 less. The environmental temperature will increase that

18 need, but the usual fashion is for an adult not too

19 big, not too little, is about one litre a day, a litre

20 and a half, is the daily needs.

21 Q. In conditions like that?

22 A. Uh-huh.

23 Q. Okay. Now, Ms. McHenry also asked you about

24 heat exhaustion and heat stroke. Aren't those

25 essentially one degree -- up the chain of the ladder,

Page 14031

1 if you would?

2 A. Yes. The main difference is that the heat

3 stroke represent the maximum expression of something

4 that is associated with increase of environmental

5 temperature. In heat stroke the normal control of the

6 brain toward body temperature is absolutely

7 uncontrollable. And that is finally what can kill the

8 person.

9 Q. Okay. And another thing Ms. McHenry asked

10 you about was you said may occur, might occur, may not

11 or may?

12 A. May or may not, yes.

13 Q. On each one of these things that you and I

14 discussed on direct, when you say "might occur" or "may

15 occur", there is a -- and I am not going to use the

16 phrase "reasonable medical probability" because that's

17 a phrase we have defined, but on each one of those

18 things there is a reasonable probability, there is some

19 probability that's substantial that the event we

20 discussed would occur; is that fair?

21 A. More than less, yes.

22 Q. More likely than not?

23 A. More likely than.

24 Q. So --

25 A. Given the circumstances.

Page 14032

1 Q. So, for instance, what we just talked about

2 heat stroke, given the circumstances, it's more likely

3 than not that someone would have had a heat stroke, or

4 there would have been cases of heat stroke?

5 A. I presume that many of them have undergo to

6 the exertion and the next one that represent the more

7 serious condition, but apparently there was not any

8 other death that could be blamed to heat stroke. Heat

9 stroke is an extremely -- in general, it's rare. It's

10 not as frequent, but you need too much exposure and you

11 need to have a very significant decrease in water

12 supply.

13 Q. Okay. And again, when you talk about the

14 chance of infectious diseases inside the camp, it is

15 more likely than not --

16 A. Oh, yes.

17 Q. -- that there would have been some kind of

18 epidemic of some serious --

19 A. Definitely.

20 Q. And the last thing I want to ask you about

21 was they talked about Mr. Gotovac, and the man who was

22 -- two more things I want to ask you about.

23 Mr. Gotovac, the man who was deceased and the witnesses

24 have said laid there three days dead, two to three

25 days. And Ms. McHenry asked you if the temperature was

Page 14033

1 lower than 90 degrees, would it put off the effects of

2 decomposition. If the temperature was 85 degrees

3 Fahrenheit, how long is it going to put it off?

4 A. We consider room temperature, environmental

5 temperature under ordinary circumstances is the

6 language that the forensic pathologists use.

7 Environmental, ordinary circumstances, temperature is

8 about 70 75 degrees. Any degree --

9 Q. Fahrenheit, Your Honour. Your Honour, we are

10 still Americans. We still are old fashioned.

11 JUDGE JAN: You use a format scale.

12 MR. MORAN: And we still use miles and feet.

13 JUDGE JAN: (Microphone, please, Your Honour)

14 normally -- in order to understand.

15 MR. MORAN: I understand, Your Honour,

16 exactly. I have had to use Celcius and metres and

17 various things and I am converting in my head all of

18 the time.

19 Q. I'm sorry to have interrupted you, doctor.

20 A. See, the -- when the temperature comes up,

21 the more it comes, the more or more fast decomposition,

22 the rate of the decomposition, the greater the

23 temperature, the more rapid the decomposition rate.

24 Q. And if it was -- the effects of

25 decomposition, without going into any great detail,

Page 14034

1 include things other than odours, don't they?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. And the body would change colours?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. The body would --

6 MS. McHENRY: I think this is going beyond

7 the scope of cross-examination.

8 MR. MORAN: Your Honour, she asked if, you

9 know, smells could, from people who hadn't bathed --

10 well, I am going to leave it alone. Let me just back

11 off.

12 The last thing is she asked you about a

13 medical report on a man named Dordic, and it showed rib

14 fractures. Doctor, would you open the volume next to

15 you and go to page 31. That was what was provided to

16 you, wasn't it? And on the top of page 31 there is a

17 line, number 7. It starts off answer. Would you read

18 that to the Trial Chamber.

19 A. Line number 7.

20 Q. Right up at the very top.

21 A. Answer, "Yes, on one occasion real hard, and

22 I said that in my statement, that I had a lot of

23 fractured ribs from it and I think that the medical

24 records will show that."

25 Q. And what I asked you to do, as an expert

Page 14035

1 witness, was to examine the testimony of the

2 Prosecution witnesses, not other things, and compare

3 that with medical science; isn't that what I asked,

4 doctor?

5 A. Yes.

6 MR. MORAN: Thank you very much, doctor,

7 thank you very much for coming to the Hague.

8 JUDGE JAN: Doctor, I want to ask you a

9 question. Where I come from our country, Pakistan -- a

10 number of persons are confined in a place and the

11 temperature goes up, you get the feeling of

12 suffocation. Why so?

13 A. Yes, that's correct.

14 JUDGE JAN: Why do we get that feeling?

15 A. Yes. Particularly if the humidity is high.

16 JUDGE JAN: Yes.

17 A. Yes.

18 JUDGE JAN: Is it lack of oxygen or what?

19 A. The respiratory tract, one of the first

20 things that the air is happened with, you inhale air,

21 is that you cool off, the air on the way down is cooled

22 off by your tissues, the sinuses, the bronchi, the

23 pharynx, so that area is going to be cooled off as it

24 comes down to the lung. When you are breathing a hot

25 air, for a long time, that will be altered in some

Page 14036

1 degree, depending upon the people, the state of

2 hydration, or dehydration of the individual. And then

3 under the circumstances, this is like a kind of

4 irritation to the respiratory system, and you feel

5 suffocated, yes. It's a subjective -- probably you

6 have enough oxygen, but the sensation that you receive

7 personally is not that.

8 JUDGE JAN: Thank you.

9 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Let me get this clear.

10 I know technically death is certified by a professional

11 medical doctor. To what extent can a lay person

12 determine that?

13 A. A lay person to determine this?


15 A. Some people recommend to take a little mirror

16 and put it over here. If there is any -- what is

17 vapours of water over the mirror, that's a good test

18 for the layman to follow, because sometimes the people

19 in coma, they have a very shallow, very superficial

20 respiration, and the activity of the cardiovascular

21 system is so little that it's -- cannot be perceived by

22 the layman. A medical doctor will go to the neck and

23 touch big arteries here, but it's difficult sometimes

24 in the circumstances that there were no professionals

25 there to establish the cause of death. On the other

Page 14037

1 hand, I read that the prisoners were a little bit

2 scared to go and go at once for some reason, not to

3 examine, not to go to the other people, so -- no help.

4 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: It has been the

5 contention here whether a certain person had actually

6 died at the time his fellow inmates, who are laymen,

7 thought he was dead because he was motionless over a

8 period of time, and there was no way of determining

9 whether he was alive, other than the fact that he was

10 motionless. So could a layman in certain circumstances

11 determine that a person actually has died without

12 enlisted the aid of a medical doctor?

13 A. Yes. Yes.

14 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Thank you very much. I

15 think those are the questions that I wanted to get

16 clarified.

17 I think that's all we have for this witness.

18 MR. MORAN: I think so, Your Honour. I thank

19 you very much for your time today.

20 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Thank you very much, Dr.

21 Bellas, I think you are discharged.

22 A. You're welcome.

23 (The witness withdrew)

24 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: I see Ms. Residovic is

25 on her feet. Do we have anything?

Page 14038

1 MS. RESIDOVIC: Yes, Your Honours. We had

2 requested a medical report regarding my client,

3 Mr. Delalic, and I believe that this report will be

4 provided by the physician to the registry. However, I

5 wish to inform you that given the schedule we have for

6 the trial, it may be possible that we will work in --

7 on Friday as well, which is when Mr. Delalic has

8 further medical examination with all kinds of analysis

9 performed at that time, and we are again in the

10 situation that Mr. Delalic will not be able to attend

11 the trial. However, we have instructions that the

12 trial can go on. And further, in case that examination

13 requires further treatment, Mr. Delalic will have to go

14 on -- to go into treatment, of which we will also

15 duly inform you as the time comes.

16 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Thank you very much. I

17 think it's -- to carry out these medical examinations

18 and treatment as they come.

19 MR. MORAN: Your Honour, just for Ms.

20 Residovic's -- I would be shocked if our witness

21 tomorrow continued into Friday. I would be absolutely

22 shocked. So I can't -- our witness should not

23 interfere with the medical treatment and examination.

24 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: With Mrs. McHenry

25 whether we continue beyond tomorrow.

Page 14039

1 MR. MORAN: Your Honour, I have no control

2 over that.

3 JUDGE JAN: She is very reasonable.

4 MR. MORAN: Your Honour, on that I'll claim

5 the 5th.

6 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: The Trial Chamber will

7 now rise and then reassemble at 10 a.m. tomorrow.

8 --- Whereupon proceedings adjourned at

9 2.55 p.m., to be reconvened on the

10 9th day of July, 1998, at 10.00 a.m.