1 Thursday, 9th July, 1998
2 --- Upon commencing at 10.05 a.m.
3 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Good morning, ladies and
4 gentlemen. May we have the appearances.
5 MS. McHENRY: Good morning, Your Honours,
6 Teresa McHenry for the Prosecutor, along with
7 Mr. Huber, who has just stepped out for a minute.
8 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: We also have the
9 appearances for the Defence, please.
10 MS. RESIDOVIC: Good morning, Your Honour, I
11 am Edina Residovic, Defence counsel for Mr. Zejnil
12 Delalic. Mr. Delalic is also represented by Mr. Eugene
13 O'Sullivan, professor from Canada. Thank you.
14 MR. DURIC: Good morning, Your Honours, my
15 name is Niko Duric, attorney at law from Zagreb,
16 Croatia representing Mr. Mucic. Thank you.
17 MR. KARABDIC: Good morning, Your Honours, I
18 am Salih Karabdic, attorney from Sarajevo, Defence
19 counsel for Mr. Hazim Delic. Mr. Delic is also
20 represented by Mr. Thomas Moran, attorney from Houston,
22 MS. McMURREY: Good morning, Your Honours, I
23 am Cynthia McMurrey, from the United States, and I
24 represent Mr. Esad Landzo, along with Ms. Nancy Boler,
25 also from the United States.
1 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: So we are ready for
2 Mr. Moran's witness.
3 MR. MORAN: Good morning, Your Honours, may
4 it please the Court.
5 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Yes, you may proceed,
7 MR. MORAN: Thank you, Your Honour. Good
8 morning, Mr. Ustalic, would you please state your full
9 name for the record so that the Court reporter can --
10 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Excuse me for a minute,
11 please. Swear the witness, please.
12 A. I solemnly declare that I will speak the
13 truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth.
14 MR. MORAN: And if the witness could turn on
15 his microphone. Thank you very much. You may be
16 seated, sir.
17 THE COURT: You may sit down.
18 WITNESS: Zlatko Ustalic
19 Examined by Mr. Moran
20 Q. Mr. Ustalic, would you please state your full
21 name for the record so the Court reporter can take it
23 A. My name is Zlatko Ustalic.
24 Q. Mr. Ustalic, how are you employed now?
25 A. I work for the Igman Company, which is part
1 of the UNIS conglomerate.
2 Q. What do you do for them, sir?
3 A. I do jobs that are required of me.
4 Q. And, sir, during the war, and I want you to
5 focus on -- yes, sir, what jobs are required of you?
6 What are your basic duties for the Igman Company?
7 A. You mean at the job on which I work? It is
8 maintenance of machinery. We are repairing things that
9 have been damaged in the war. We are trying to make
10 them up and running so that we could go on producing.
11 Q. And are you married man, sir?
12 A. Yes, I am married and I have two children.
13 Q. That was my next question, you anticipated
14 me, sir. I sir, I would like to focus your attention
15 on the war, and mainly the period from May through
16 December of 1992. What did you do during the war,
17 during that period of the war?
18 A. I was assigned to duties as a driver who was
19 distributing food along the front lines to the
21 Q. Tell the judges, just in general, what your
22 duties were when you say you distributed food along the
23 frontlines to the fighters. For instance, did you pick
24 the -- did you get the food at some central location
25 and take it out, and, if so, how did you do it? Just
1 in general terms, so the judges can know your general
3 A. Around 20 April a mobilisation took place and
4 commander at that time, Esad Ramic, assigned me to be
5 driver with a quarter master's office. I had a Lada
6 vehicle, which I used to distribute the food at the
7 front lines, where necessary, but this was an old car,
8 so we had to look after spare parts. There was a lot
9 of shelling. We could not move about freely. We were
10 limited in terms of picking up the food that was
11 prepared at Igman Company. And later on it was
12 prepared at the Cipad factory. It was the food that
13 was prepared for the military.
14 Q. I don't want to lead you, and I don't want to
15 suggest to you what you should say, but did you get
16 these things in, what, great big pots and put them in
17 the back of your vehicle and then just move them, take
18 them to various places?
19 A. I was only a driver. I only drove. I had a
20 colleague who did this. His name was Mirsad Landzo.
21 He would take the food, he would load it up into the
22 vehicle, and then it would be taken to its destination.
23 Q. Did you -- by the way, when you say Mirsad
24 Landzo, do you know if he is any relation to Esad
25 Landzo who is sitting over there? If you don't know,
1 you don't know, but just out of curiosity.
2 A. When I entered the Courtroom, I recognised
3 Mucic and Mr. Delalic and Mr. Delic, but I could not
4 recognise Mr. Landzo.
5 Q. Okay. That's fine. Sir, were part of your
6 duties to take food to the Celebici barracks?
7 A. Yes. Yes.
8 Q. And did that include food for both the staff
9 and the prisoners?
10 A. At first it was only for the personnel, for
11 the staff, and later on it was also for the prisoners,
12 after the prisoners had arrived.
13 Q. Okay. That was -- do you remember about when
14 you started bringing food for the prisoners?
15 A. Sometime in May. Maybe mid-may.
16 Q. Okay. That's fine. I'm sure you didn't
17 write it down, don't have any specific memory, and
18 that's fine. Sir, tell the judges how you actually
19 delivered the food to the barracks, and there's a model
20 behind you if you want to -- if it would help to you
21 show the judges -- if you want to use the model, that's
22 just fine.
23 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: I suppose his first
24 answer was he was only a driver. There was someone
25 else who would load the van.
1 MR. MORAN: Okay.
2 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: To do the delivery.
3 MR. MORAN:
4 Q. This Mr. Landzo that helped you load the van,
5 did he go with you when you were delivering the food?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. And when you drove up to the Celebici
8 barracks to deliver food, basically, what did you do
9 and how did you deliver it?
10 A. At the gate there was a guard. He would open
11 the gate. We would arrive, we would make a left turn,
12 we would arrive in front of the administration
13 building. And there the food would be unloaded and I
14 think Sejvudin Sok would take it over there for the
15 staff before the prisoners arrived, and after the
16 prisoners had arrived, Sejvudin also took -- would take
17 the food, and there were also two girls. I think there
18 was one name was Meliha, something like that. And
19 later on the prisoners themselves would take over the
21 Q. Did you see the prisoners take the food back
22 to the hangar 6?
23 A. No. I don't know about hangar number 6. I
24 don't know what that is. But I would arrive at the
25 administration building. I could show it to you on the
1 model and that's where I would be -- can I do that?
2 Q. Sure.
3 A. (Witness indicating) The food would be
4 delivered at this location here, and after unloading
5 the food I would go this way and I would come to the
6 hangar and I would give the food to the weapons
7 people. There were three weapons, technicians there.
8 I can't recall their names. And then I would go back
9 and out.
10 Q. Okay. And, sir, the food for the prisoners,
11 was that a small quantity of food or a large quantity
12 of food, or was it the same amount, roughly, per person
13 -- well, that the fighters were getting, or do you
15 A. Let me just repeat it again. I was only a
16 driver and a colleague who was with me, and I saw this
17 because I could not not see it. For instance, people
18 at the front lines and people at different points, they
19 all received the same food, and it would be about one
20 quarter a loaf.
21 Q. One quarter loaf of bread?
22 A. For both the prisoners and the fighters.
23 Q. Do you know roughly how many prisoners there
24 were in the barracks?
25 A. I can't say exactly, but at least 70 breads
1 would be brought in, so multiplied by four, so let's
2 say 280.
3 Q. How often did you bring in the breads and the
4 rest of the food? Once a day, twice a day, three times
5 a day? Every other day? How often, roughly?
6 A. Breakfast, lunch and dinner.
7 Q. Okay. And after you delivered the food, for
8 instance at a lunch, would you stay at the Celebici
9 barracks or would you go someplace else and then
10 return? How did that work?
11 A. Let me tell you. I had several drop-off
12 points, something like 15. One was Podgradac, Loncari,
13 the school, Celebici, Ostrozac, Turija. I could not
14 stay around for a long time. You can understand. And
15 it's breakfast, lunch and dinner. It was a lot of food
16 to be distributed around. Did I not have time to
17 linger around much.
18 Q. And then after you continued on your rounds,
19 would you come back and pick up empty pots and empty --
20 and take them back to the central kitchen, so that they
21 could be reused?
22 A. In the beginning, when the prisoners would
23 not receive their meals, the breakfast went on very
24 quickly, we didn't have to stay long. When the
25 prisoners arrived, the military had spare mess tins and
1 we would give them these extras, and we would pick up
2 the other ones. So it wouldn't stay a long time. And
3 then we -- sometimes we did not have enough of the
4 large containers because I had to take them all the way
5 out to Klise (Phon) and other locations. So we would
6 then substitute them.
7 Q. Okay. Did you often bring them cooked food
8 besides just the bread?
9 A. Yes, for sure. For breakfast, there was tea,
10 coffee with milk, and some eggs. Sometimes for a while
11 there was even some honey.
12 Q. And how about lunch, what would they get for
13 lunch? What would you bring to the camp?
14 A. Lentils, beans, stuff like that.
15 Q. And dinner would be the same as lunch,
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. And given the amount of food you were
19 bringing to the people in the camp, the number of
20 prisoners, was it about the same amount of food as you
21 were getting, when you consider how many prisoners you
22 estimate were in the camp?
23 A. I did not fully understand your question.
24 Q. Okay. Okay. And it was a poorly phrased
25 question. It was my fault, not yours. You estimated
1 -- you said you brought about 70 loaves of bread for
2 the prisoners, and everybody got a quarter of a loaf,
3 so you were guessing about 280 people, give or take a
4 few, that were prisoners. When you consider the amount
5 of food that you brought for the prisoners at the camp,
6 and you figure there was about 280 people are going to
7 be eating this amount of food, was it about the same
8 amount of food as you were getting? Each person's
9 portion would be about the same as yours?
10 A. Yes, certainly.
11 Q. While you were there, sir, did you ever see
12 Mr. Delic?
13 A. You mean Hazim Delic?
14 Q. Yes.
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. What was Mr. Delic doing when you saw him?
17 A. He would be at the gate, sometimes at the
18 reception, and for the rest was doing whatever the
19 other guards were around there were doing.
20 Q. Did you ever see him give any orders to
21 anyone, sir?
22 A. I did not have many opportunities, and we
23 didn't stay around much, very long. So I did not have
25 Q. Did -- when you were there, did you get very
1 close to the prisoners that were being held in the
2 camp? Could you see them closely and observe them
4 A. I could not approach them, but I could see
5 the people who were taking the food away to the
7 Q. And those people that you saw, those
8 prisoners that were carrying the food to the other
9 prisoners, or, for that matter, any of the prisoners,
10 any of them look like they had been beaten up or
11 starved or kicked, or hit, or burned up or abused in
12 any way?
13 A. My colleague from work, his name was Vukasin
14 Mrkajic. We used to work for the same company. He
15 would take the food and would carry it over to the
16 prisoners. I could not notice any changes in him at
18 Q. Did he look like he had lost weight, or --
19 A. I believe that I was thinner than he was.
20 Q. Okay. Did you get to talk to Mr.
21 Mrkajic when he was there?
22 A. I was not allowed to.
23 Q. Okay. That's fine.
24 Your Honour, I pass the witness.
25 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Any cross-examination
1 for this witness?
2 MS. RESIDOVIC: Your Honours, we have no
3 questions of this witness.
4 MR. DURIC: Your Honours, the Defence of
5 Mr. Zdravko Mucic also has no questions for this
6 witness. Thank you.
7 MS. BOLER: The Defence of Esad Landzo does
8 have some questions, Your Honour.
9 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Any cross-examination by
10 the Prosecution, please? Thank you.
11 Cross-examined by Ms. Boler
12 Q. Your Honours, I've had a --
13 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Yes, you may proceed,
15 MS. BOLER: I'll state for the Court and for
16 the witness that I've had a cold and a cough for the
17 last few days so I'll just have my water handy there.
18 Q. Good morning, Mr. Ustalic, my name is Nancy
19 Boler and along with Cynthia McMurrey I represent Esad
20 Landzo. You and I have met before, correct?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. And we first met in May, when I came to
23 Konjic, and then again briefly when I was there two
24 weeks ago, right?
25 A. Correct.
1 Q. And when you and I spoke briefly a couple of
2 weeks ago, you told me that your mother was afraid for
3 to you come and testify, right?
4 A. My apologies. I forgot this. But, thank you
5 for reminding me. Your Honours, if I am free to say
6 this. I am in -- offended that I have received this
7 subpoena. I never said that I would not come here to
8 say the truth, so that the whole truth be told here. I
9 requested that -- including the lady here, because my
10 mother is sick, I asked Mr. Karabdic and also Madam --
11 oh, sorry, neither madam Nancy did this or Mr. Karabdic
12 didn't do that. So I don't feel good about being
13 brought here in this manner. I wanted to come, but I
14 wanted to come here to speak the truth. And I am glad
15 that the truth is going to come out of this. And thank
16 you for reminding me, so that I can make this comment.
17 Q. And when I was there, I explained to you that
18 Mr. Delic would probably be bringing you here by
19 subpoena, and in fact, you are here by subpoena today,
21 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: You don't really have to
22 ask him that. We know he's here on that.
23 MS. BOLER: Okay. I'll move on.
24 Q. You have previously spoken to representatives
25 of the Defence of Mr. Delic and Mr. Landzo, haven't
2 A. Yes, I had separate meetings with the
3 gentleman for Mr. Landzo and with a different gentleman
4 for Mr. Delic.
5 Q. In fact, December 26th of 1992 you gave a
6 statement to Mrs. Brackovic, who is the wife of
7 Mr. Landzo's original attorney; is that correct?
8 JUDGE JAN: You said 1992.
9 MS. BOLER: I meant to say 1992, what did I
10 say? I meant to say 1996. Did I say 1992?
11 JUDGE JAN: Yes.
12 MS. BOLER:
13 Q. Okay, sorry. It was 1996. Do you remember
14 giving that statement to Mrs. Brackovic.
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. You'll see a lot of these questions I am
17 crossing out because Mr. Moran asked you the same
18 questions. We understand that you were a driver during
19 the war and you mentioned that there was a great deal
20 of shelling at that time, in fact, your own vehicle was
21 fired upon by the Serbs, right?
22 A. Yes, of course, and that was a daily
24 Q. And this type of activity caused a lot of
25 fear amongst the people in Konjic, did it not?
1 A. Yes, of course.
2 Q. I'm also going to ask you a few questions
3 about delivering the food to Celebici, as Mr. Moran
4 did. Mr. Moran asked you about your partner, I suppose
5 we'll call him, Mr. Mirsad Landzo. And Mr. Landzo was
6 a cousin of Esad Landzo; is that correct?
7 A. You said my colleague. Is that right?
8 Q. Close enough. I said partner, but colleague
9 means the same thing. You mentioned it in direct, that
10 a gentleman named Mr. Mirsad Landzo accompanied you or
11 was also part of the food delivery service, correct?
12 A. That is correct. Mirsad Landzo was with me
13 throughout this time, and we drove the food.
14 Q. And he was seriously injured during the war,
15 in fact, his left arm is still disabled; is that true?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Also, when you were speaking with --
18 answering Mr. Moran's questions, you mentioned that you
19 did not recognise Mr. Landzo this morning. But you
20 knew him during the war, did you not?
21 A. I could not see him, and right now I can't
22 see him in the Courtroom. I see the other gentlemen,
23 but I can't see him.
24 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Actually, what he said,
25 on coming in he recognised Delalic, Mucic and Delic.
1 He did not know the other person. That's what he
3 MS. BOLER: I wasn't sure if it was because
4 of the pillar was in the way, if he saw him, but did
5 not recognise him, that that was Mr. Landzo, or if
6 there was an obstruction.
7 Q. Do you now see Mr. Landzo in the Courtroom?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. And he doesn't look malnourished anymore, he
10 has grown from a boy into a man, correct?
11 A. I just notice him. I saw a figure back
12 there. He doesn't look as the boy which I used to
14 Q. Let me ask you, when Mr. Moran was asking you
15 about the food, you mentioned some of these foods, but
16 let me just reiterate that you -- when you made these
17 deliveries, that the food consisted mainly of beans,
18 rice, macaroni, lentil soup and such; is that your
20 A. Yes, you are correct.
21 Q. And also when canned meat was available, a
22 400 gram tin of meat was shared between two and four
23 prisoners, right?
24 A. Yes, that's correct.
25 Q. Did you stay approximately one half hour at
1 Celebici when you made your deliveries?
2 A. I didn't have that much time to stay there,
3 because I had to go to other drop-off points. I repeat
4 again, I said that I had a very bad car, that I had to
5 take care of the oil, the wheels and everything else,
6 the situation was very bad, and therefore, I would like
7 to repeat again that you must understand that I had a
8 very difficult job. I had a lot of things to do, which
9 I -- which I did not have enough time. And I had to
10 get up very early and at the evening when I would come
11 home, I would realise that I had no time to eat because
12 I was surrounded by the smell of food all day long.
13 Q. Thank you for expanding on your answer.
14 During the time that you were in Celebici, when you
15 made your deliveries, did you observe that small groups
16 of prisoners would put food on their own plates; in
17 other words, the prisoners -- you observed the
18 prisoners distributing the food themselves, correct?
19 A. No, I didn't say that. I couldn't see that.
20 I would only see that the prisoners would take -- were
21 taking the food away from the command building.
22 Q. My next question would be, then, the guards
23 did not decide which prisoners got what amounts of food
24 in your observance, did they?
25 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Why do you ask him such
1 questions? He's told you he never spent any time
2 there. He was in a hurry and he left almost
4 MS. BOLER: Your Honour, I heard him say that
5 he observed the prisoners taking the food away, so that
6 was just a follow-up question, since he testified that
7 he observed the prisoners taking the food away. I just
8 followed up. Maybe I should rephrase it and say.
9 Q. You never saw the camp guards taking that
10 food away? It's your testimony that you saw the
11 prisoners taking the food away, correct?
12 A. They would take their food, the food which
13 was meant for them.
14 Q. Now, when you brought the food to Celebici,
15 did Mr. Delic sign receipts for the amount of food that
16 you brought?
17 A. At sometimes, yes, of course, but whoever
18 wanted to from the guards could sign these receipts.
19 Q. Okay. And then you kept the receipts, right?
20 A. No. Both me and my colleagues could do that.
21 Q. Okay. I guess my point of my question is, if
22 we had those receipts today, then the Trial Chamber
23 would be able to know exactly how much food was
24 delivered, right?
25 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: You mean for the period,
1 the whole period -- the period when he delivered?
2 MS. BOLER: My understanding he said he
3 delivered -- let me ask you this question, Mr. Ustalic,
4 since the judge brought this up. My understanding is
5 that you delivered food from mid-April of 1992 until
6 the end of the year; is that correct?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. And during that time period, if we had those
9 receipts today, would the Trial Chamber be able to see
10 exactly how many food was delivered to Celebici? Was
11 that information on those receipts?
12 JUDGE JAN: Ask him. Ask him what did he do
13 with those receipts.
14 MS. BOLER:
15 Q. Mr. Ustalic --
16 JUDGE JAN: Maybe he deposited them at the
17 place where he got the food.
18 MS. BOLER:
19 Q. After you got the receipts back from
20 Mr. Delic or whoever signed for the receipts, what did
21 you do with the receipts?
22 A. Let me tell you. Those were not receipts.
23 It was a block which came from the kitchen of Igman and
24 Cipad. That means, for example, if you took five
25 loaves of bread, this receipt would say Ustalic and
1 Landzo took five loaves of bread. And that means that
2 somebody else had to sign this receipt that this was
3 taken, because I had to show this to my superior that
4 this job was done. Because a soldier cannot survive
5 without food. And let me answer the question of the
6 judge. This -- these receipts existed. I would give
7 them to Mr. Nehir, and I think that he would copy some
8 of them, he would copy some of them, and I kept those.
9 I had them. And I kept it in my cellar, but since I
10 had a flood in my cellar, there was a catastrophe. But
11 I'm really sorry about that. I really did keep records
12 of everything that I took, even toothpicks and things
13 like that.
14 Q. And when you say that you gave the receipts
15 to Mr. Nehir, do you mean the investigator for
16 Mr. Delic?
17 A. Yes. Yes.
18 Q. Okay. Let me move on. During the -- and I
19 understand to you say that it was short times that you
20 were in Celebici when you delivered the food. Did you
21 also -- you observed the families of detainees bringing
22 food, shoes, clothing, et cetera, to their relatives,
23 didn't you?
24 A. The families of the prisoners?
25 Q. Yes.
1 A. Well, let me tell you, I didn't see the
2 families, but how should I put this? There were more
3 families, men and women, children, the elderly, who
4 would carry things in bags. I don't know what they
5 were carrying, but I would see that this was being
6 received at the gate. I would see that this commotion,
7 that some things were being given, but I don't know
8 what it was.
9 Q. Did you say you saw the guards take these
10 things from the families?
11 A. Well, I remember one man, because this man is
12 now my neighbour. His name is Muharem Masic. And he
13 would take these gifts and he would give them to the
14 prisoners. He would give these things to them.
15 Q. And you observed that when you were there?
16 I'll retract that. Obviously, that's what you just
17 stated. Let me move on.
18 A. Could I say something else? When I was
19 passing with my car, this would be at the gate on the
20 left for me. There was a larger line, which was
21 waiting, a longer line, and they were holding bags in
22 their hand and there were children and women and the
23 elderly. That's what I said.
24 Q. And also when you were there, you observed
25 the prisoners engaging in other activities, such as
1 bathing, correct?
2 A. Once I could see, when I went to see Nurko,
3 Nurko Tabak, who was the weapons specialist, they were
4 having showers. They were using a fire-fighting hose,
5 and from afar I could see that they were taking
7 Q. Let me ask you just a couple of more
8 questions about Mr. Landzo, and then I will wind up.
9 Starting in mid-July of 1992, you saw that Esad Landzo
10 was a guard at the prison, correct?
11 JUDGE JAN: He hasn't said that.
12 MS. BOLER: Okay. I'll move on.
13 Q. And you never observed Mr. Landzo distribute
14 any food to the prisoners; is that true?
15 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: (Microphone, please,
16 Your Honour) he didn't say any such thing.
17 A. No, I never observed that.
18 MS. BOLER:
19 Q. Isn't it also true that for a certain period
20 of time the prisoners -- the prisoners at Celebici were
21 actually given better food than the soldiers on the
22 front line, but that that was something you all kept
23 quiet, so as not to cause dissatisfaction among the
24 soldiers; isn't that true?
25 A. I do not understand the question.
1 JUDGE JAN: You have asked three questions in
3 MS. BOLER: That's probably why he doesn't
4 understand the question. Let me break it up.
5 Q. Isn't it true that during certain periods of
6 time the prisoners at Celebici were actually given
7 better food to eat than your soldiers on the front
9 A. If on the better food you would consider a
10 can, a so-called duck, which had 400 grams, and a
11 soldier would receive cooked food, then, because meat
12 is meat and soup is a soup.
13 Q. Let my final question be -- I'll ask you to
14 describe how Mr. Landzo today looks different from the
15 way he looked back in 1992.
16 A. Well, I would like Esad Landzo to stand up so
17 that I can see him. But I can describe him, what he
18 looked like. He was a very thin boy, had short hair.
19 He had a large uniform on, large -- the sleeves were
20 large. He had a big rifle and the butt was touching
21 the ground. The rifle seemed to be larger than him
22 because he didn't seem to weigh more than 30 kilos and
23 he would open the gate for me, when I would pass
24 through the gate. That's when I would see him, and not
25 on other occasions.
1 Q. Mr. Ustalic, thank you for coming to the
2 Hague to testify. I pass the witness, Your Honours.
3 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Thank you very much.
4 A. Thank you very much.
5 Cross-examined by Ms. McHenry
6 Q. May I proceed, Your Honours?
7 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Yes, you may, please.
8 MS. McHENRY:
9 Q. Good morning, sir, my name is Teresa McHenry
10 and I have some questions for you. If you don't
11 understand my question, please tell me and I will
12 rephrase it or repeat it. Okay?
13 A. Okay.
14 Q. For how long a period of time did you deliver
15 food to the Celebici prison? I know you started, you
16 believe, sometime in May. How long did you deliver,
17 did you continue to deliver food there?
18 A. You mean the exact date when I stopped
19 delivering food?
20 Q. The approximate date. The month even.
21 A. Sometime in October '92. After that I
23 Q. And who -- do you know who took over for you
24 when you left in October of '92? Did someone else take
25 over the job of driving food to Celebici?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Do you know who that was?
3 A. Yes, I do. Yes, I do. It was my colleague,
4 Mirsad Landzo. He continued. And Muharem Slato. He
5 continued with the distribution. He was a driver for
6 another vehicle.
7 Q. Now, Mr. Mucic was the commander of the
8 Celebici prison for most of the time you were driving
9 there, wasn't he?
10 MR. DURIC: Your Honours, I object to this
11 question. It's leading. He didn't say that. He just
12 said that he recognised my client here in the
14 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Cross-examination can
15 lead. It doesn't stop a cross examiner leading.
16 MS. McHENRY:
17 Q. Sir, it's correct, isn't it, that Mr. Mucic
18 was the commander of the Celebici prison?
19 A. I was not in the position to know such
20 things. I don't know if he was a commander. During my
21 time there, I saw him in mid-August, maybe, and then at
22 the end of August, at most. Maybe twice at most that I
23 -- it was twice that I saw him at Celebici.
24 Q. Sir, you would agree with me that at the time
25 you believed that Mr. Mucic was the commander, didn't
2 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: He has told you he could
3 not --
4 MR. DURIC: I object again to this line of
5 questioning, Your Honours.
6 MS. McHENRY:
7 Q. Let me ask more specifically, sir. You've
8 talked about giving statements to the Defence before,
9 and in particular talking with a Mr. Nehir. Let me ask
10 you if you remember stating in a prior statement, and
11 if you -- I'll ask the usher to give you a copy of it.
12 Do you remember stating, "From the time I started
13 delivering food, that is, from the time the Celebici
14 barracks was first established, the barracks commander
15 was Dzevad Alibasic and later Zdravko Mucic. I do not
16 recall the exact date when the post was passed from one
17 to the other, but I know that Alibasic was the
18 commander for a very brief period before Pavo Mucic
19 took over his post."
20 Do you remember -- may I ask that the witness
21 be shown his prior statement. Sir, do you remember
22 saying that previously?
23 A. I cannot remember if this is true. I don't
24 think I wrote this. I think the attorney wrote this.
25 Please, I came here to tell the truth and nothing but
1 the truth and don't lead me to tell lies, please.
2 Q. Let me ask that you look at the last page of
3 that, sir, and ask -- the last page of it, which is the
4 Serbo-Croatian version.
5 A. I signed this. This is my signature. But
6 this gentleman wrote what he wanted to. And you didn't
7 see correctly. It says here that for this -- it should
8 say that for this statement I will be responsible in
9 front of the Tribunal at the Hague, but it's not stated
10 here. It was left out.
11 Q. It does say, sir, right before your
12 signature, "That none of the statements I have made
13 here was given under duress in any way, and I hereby
14 recognise and sign as my own concerning what I saw and
15 what I know about the events and situation in the
16 Celebici barracks." That's what it says right above
17 your signature, isn't it, sir?
18 A. This is not mine. This was added by the
19 attorney who wrote this. This was his wish. And
20 please do not force me to lie.
21 Q. I am sorry, sir. When you gave this
22 statement and signed it and said that it was true, were
23 you being forced to lie at that time?
24 A. No. At the beginning they were talking. I
25 said earlier that I was very upset because I came under
1 a subpoena. They promised that another version, they
2 said that they would be connected through satellites,
3 that we would be in Sarajevo, and that we could do this
4 through a satellite. And this is not my statement.
5 This is what the attorney wrote. And I will only be
6 speaking the truth, and that is why I came here for.
7 Q. My question, sir, then is: Why, if what's in
8 here is not the truth, did you say, "I recognise and
9 sign as my own all statements concerning what I saw and
10 what I know". If what is in this statement isn't true,
11 sir, why did you sign it and say that it was true?
12 A. I would like to repeat once again, this is
13 not mine. This was done quickly and this is not my
14 statement. This is not my personal statement. This is
15 what the lawyer wrote. Because he made us work things
16 very quickly, and he did it at his own will.
17 Q. Sir, my -- you've already indicated -- well,
18 let me just repeat. You would agree with me that you
19 signed this statement in --
20 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Don't you think you
21 should move to something else, because he signed this
22 statement, he is now denying it. That's all.
23 MS. McHENRY: Yes, Your Honour, I will move
24 on. You are right.
25 Q. Now, did you get -- did you -- well, let me
1 just ask you, sir. You would agree, wouldn't you, that
2 when you went to Celebici, it was usually to Mr. Delic
3 that you delivered the food, and it was Mr. Delic who
4 would tell you how many prisoners there were, so you
5 would know how much food to bring the next time?
6 That's correct, isn't it?
7 A. When Hazim Delic happened to be there, he
8 could give the -- any prisoner could give the number of
9 -- any guard -- interpreter correction -- any guard
10 could give the number of prisoners and it was my
11 colleague who would take this number. I wouldn't be
12 responsible for this. And it was the kitchen that
13 would establish how much food was necessary to bring to
14 the prison.
15 Q. Sometimes, when you went to the prison, it
16 was to Mr. Delic, you were present when Mr. Delic
17 talked about how much food -- how many prisoners there
18 were; is that correct?
19 A. Could you please repeat your question.
20 Q. You would agree with me, wouldn't you, sir,
21 that Mr. Delic is the person who would often give the
22 number of prisoners to you or to your colleague?
23 A. It is not correct.
24 Q. And so if your statement says that, that
25 would be another thing that's incorrect in your
2 A. I would like again to repeat that the
3 attorney himself wrote this statement. These are not
4 my words. I was present when this was being written,
5 but these are not my words.
6 MR. DURIC: Your Honours, if I may
7 interrupt. I would like this statement to be
8 withdrawn, because he denied it and the question should
9 be -- should not be based on this statement at all.
10 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: No, you don't withdraw a
11 statement because he denied it.
12 MR. DURIC: But further --
13 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: He made the statement,
14 he signed it, but he's denied the contents. That's
15 what happened.
16 MR. DURIC: Yes, Your Honours, I agree with
17 that --
18 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Someone else had put in
19 things which he did not tell him. This is what he is
20 saying. You don't, because of that, withdraw a
22 MR. DURIC: Your Honour, I know that, but I
23 was not going in that direction. Actually, Ms. McHenry
24 keeps asking the question on the basis of the statement
25 that this witness had denied. So I would like, you
1 know, to clarify this -- that situation.
2 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: I don't think I agree
3 with you. Counsel is merely pointing out facts in a
4 statement which he said he did not make. This is all
5 she was doing. He said certain things and he signed it
6 after making this statement. But he now says he did
7 not say those things. So this is what she is trying to
8 point out.
9 MR. DURIC: All right. Thanks.
10 MS. McHENRY:
11 Q. Sir, did Mr. Delic have any role with respect
12 to logistics in the Celebici camp?
13 JUDGE JAN: How would he know?
14 MS. McHENRY: Well, Your Honour, in part
15 he delivered --
16 JUDGE JAN: It is the other man going along
17 with him, Mirsad Landzo.
18 MS. McHENRY: But he stated he was often
20 Q. Sir, do you know if Mr. Delic had any -- was
21 in charge of logistics in the Celebici camp?
22 JUDGE JAN: Tell him what logistics is. Does
23 he know? It's a technical term. Ask him, does he
24 understand it.
25 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Actually, ask him
1 pointedly whether he said so in his statement. If he
2 did not say so, and this also was inserted by the
3 attorney, then you know that.
4 MS. McHENRY:
5 Q. Sir, do you know what logistics is?
6 A. Yes. I was a logistics person. I worked in
7 the logistics group. And logistics takes care about
8 the medical care, food distribution.
9 Q. And you would agree with me that Hazim Delic
10 was in charge of logistics at Celebici camp, wouldn't
12 A. No, I cannot answer that.
13 Q. And do you remember whether or not you
14 indicated to the investigator that Hazim Delic was in
15 charge of logistic matters?
16 A. Yes, I did, because when this gentleman asked
17 us to say what he wanted to hear, and to have written
18 down with respect to this statement.
19 Q. So the investigator would tell you what he
20 wanted to hear, and you would then repeat it to him,
21 and he would write it down; is that correct?
22 A. No. He was writing -- he wrote this already
23 and then he read it aloud to us and he said, "This is
24 what it's going to be like."
25 Q. Well, I'm sorry, sir. If I understood you
1 correctly, you just stated that you did tell the
2 investigator that Mr. Delic was in charge of logistics;
3 is that correct, that you told the investigator that
4 Mr. Delic was in charge of logistics?
5 A. No, I did not say that he was in charge of
6 logistics. But Mr. Delic often gave the number of
7 prisoners and took care of the food.
8 Q. Well, my question to you just a minute ago,
9 sir, was did you indicate to the investigator that
10 Mr. Delic was in charge of logistics, and you said,
11 "Yes, I did." Do you remember saying that a couple of
12 minutes ago?
13 A. No, I don't remember.
14 Q. All right. Now, sir, can you please -- you
15 discussed this briefly with Mr. Moran, but I didn't
16 really understand it all. Can you please explain to us
17 when you would bring the food to Celebici, what you
18 could see of the kind of containers it was in? And I
19 am talking about both breakfast and lunch and dinner.
20 Can you just explain that to me in a little more detail
21 what you remember about it?
22 A. I don't know what you are interested in.
23 Q. I am interested in the size of the
24 containers, what kind of containers there were, whether
25 or not you gave them utensils, how you brought coffee
1 and tea. I am interested in all those kinds of
3 A. Madam, as -- let me repeat it. I was a
4 driver. I drove the vehicle and my colleague was
5 distributing food. I know what these containers were.
6 They were larger size --
7 Q. Can you just maybe with your hands indicate
8 approximately sort of how big they were, just
9 approximately, for the food.
10 A. (Indicating).
11 Q. And if you remember, approximately how many
12 of those would you bring?
13 A. What do you mean? To the prison or the front
14 lines? Oh, Celebici. There was one large container,
15 one smaller container. So two containers, as far as I
17 Q. And I am assuming that the one you just
18 showed us the approximate dimensions of was the large
19 container. Can you give us just -- show us with your
20 hands again the approximate dimensions of the smaller
22 A. (Witness indicating) Like this. Not much
23 smaller, but smaller.
24 Q. Okay. And would you drop both -- when you
25 came in and went to the administration building, would
1 both those containers be brought -- taken off the truck
2 or the car at the administration building?
3 A. Madam, Mr. Mirsad Landzo would drop off one
4 set and pick up another set. We had to move on, to go
5 to the next point. We would just drop off one set and
6 we would pick up the other ones, to take it back to the
7 central kitchen, so that there would be washed. We had
8 to do it constantly.
9 Q. Tell me if I understand you correctly, sir.
10 You would come in, you would go to the administration
11 building, and you would unload these two containers and
12 then you would leave?
13 A. No madam. We would arrive at the
14 administration building, Mirsad Landzo would unload
15 these two containers. He would load up the two empty
16 ones, and we would go on, on our way. And this is the
17 procedure that we followed throughout.
18 Q. Now, when is it that you would go to the
19 weapons -- the weapons people? After you dropped off
20 the food at the administration building?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Okay. And so what would -- where would they
23 get their food, if the containers were already at the
24 administration building? What is it that you would
25 give to the people in the weapons warehouse?
1 A. Madam, we had another point, Celebici and
2 Orahovica and Ostrozac and below Ostrozac there was
3 another one, I can't recall. So there was additional
4 food. So people who had their own containers, we would
5 -- he would put -- ladle out the food into their
7 Q. Now, you stated that you could see, after you
8 dropped the food off, you could see the prisoners come
9 and get the food from the big containers; is that
11 A. Did I see the prisoners taking the food
12 away? Is that the question?
13 Q. Well, could you see the prisoners taking the
14 food away from the command -- the administration
15 building, that's correct.
16 A. Madam, as far as I could see from the
17 administration building to the infirmary across the
18 street, that is as far as I could see. Not beyond
20 Q. I'm sorry. But if I understood you
21 correctly, in direct testimony you indicated that you
22 could see the prisoners take the food away from the
23 area of the administration building? Did I understand
24 you correctly?
25 A. Yes, madam, you understood my correctly. And
1 I had repeated that. Because the administration
2 building and the infirmary were one across from the
3 other, and that was my field of vision. Maybe that's
4 about 20 or 30 metres where they were taking the food.
5 Q. Okay. So if I understand you correctly, you
6 saw prisoners taking the food to the infirmary; is that
8 A. Towards the infirmary, madam. If I
9 understand, the administration building is on one side
10 and the infirmary was on the other. And so they were
11 going down that street on which I was not allowed to
13 Q. Okay. Could you just on the model show us
14 the street that you were not allowed to go.
15 A. I just showed it a moment ago. This is where
16 I would deliver the food. So this would be the
17 infirmary. And I couldn't even go as far as this
18 point. This was where I would park. So I couldn't see
19 beyond this. So they would take it from here and they
20 would take the food -- then we would then go to Nurko
21 over this way, drop off food there, and then go back.
22 Q. Would you go back the same way, in other
23 words, you are saying you would never make a circle
24 around the camp, you would go by the tunnel and then
25 back again?
1 A. No. No.
2 Q. I'm sorry, sir, could you just again show me
3 one more time the route that you would take when you
4 went to deliver the food to the weapons people.
5 JUDGE JAN: He's already said that.
6 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, Your Honour.
7 JUDGE JAN: The route he took on his way
9 MS. McHENRY: Yes?
10 A. Madam, I would enter at the gate. I would
11 bring the food to the administration building. This is
12 where the food would be taken for the prisoner, and
13 then I would go this way and come to Nurko's workshop,
14 and then I would return that way back.
15 Q. Okay. And how did you know that you weren't
16 allowed to go on that other street? Did someone tell
17 that you, that you weren't allowed to go in that
19 A. Madam, there was a barrier there. I could
20 not pass there. There was a fence.
21 Q. I'm sorry, can you show us where on the model
22 the fence was, and tell us what kind of fence it was.
23 A. Here it was (indicating).
24 Q. Let the record reflect the witness marked
25 right in front of Witness D, a fence around -- and did
1 it prevent any vehicles from going, from passing, was
2 it large enough to prevent vehicles from passing
3 through on the street?
4 A. It was simple fence.
5 Q. Was it a metal fence or a wooden fence?
6 A. Yes, metal, yes. It was just like a wire and
7 it was stretched both ends.
8 Q. And was it there the entire time that you
9 delivered food to Celebici?
10 A. I would notice it always. I knew from day
11 one when the prisoners arrived there that I was not
12 allowed to move there. So I did not after that.
13 Q. And did the fence have a door on it? Was
14 there a way that if the people in the prison wanted to
15 open the street, so that vehicles could pass through,
16 that they could do so?
17 A. Madam, it was just simple wire, which was at
18 maybe 30, 40 centimetres height, that is when I was --
19 when I first saw it there.
20 Q. So if someone wanted, they could have removed
21 the wire; is that what you are saying?
22 A. I cannot say anything about that. I don't
24 Q. Okay. Now, when you indicated that you could
25 see the prisoners take the food in some direction,
1 would they take the big pots that you've talked about,
2 or would they have smaller containers? And if they had
3 smaller containers, can you please again, with just --
4 just indicate about how big they were.
5 A. Madam, I told you there was one large
6 container, one smaller container, one had already been
7 prepared, which we would pick up, load into the
8 vehicle. We would give them the full one, the full
9 container of food.
10 Q. And my question is, sir, you indicated that
11 you could see prisoners take the food away from the
12 command centre, away from the command building?
13 A. Correct.
14 Q. And my question is: In what container were
15 the prisoners taking the food away in?
16 A. In the containers which I have already
17 mentioned, which we had brought there.
18 Q. And would the prisoners, on the occasions
19 when you saw them, would they be taking both containers
20 with them or just one of the containers?
21 A. I would see four men, they would carry the
22 containers, and one of them would have to come back for
23 bread, for the loaves.
24 Q. Well, sir, then what would the guards eat, if
25 the prisoners took both containers that you brought to
1 Celebici? What did the guards eat?
2 A. Madam, I said that there was a separate
3 container for the guards. It was a smaller one for the
4 guards, for the staff who -- which worked at Celebici.
5 Q. So you would drop off three containers of
6 food; is that what you are saying now?
7 A. The question, madam, was how much was I
8 delivering for the prisoners, in terms of food. I
9 think that that was the question. And I said that
10 Sefudin in the beginning would take it first and then
11 the two girls, Meliha was one of them, they would take
12 this food and then they would take -- they would carry
13 their food and the others would carry their own food.
14 Q. And how many containers would you bring for
15 the guards and the personnel in the camp?
16 A. One. One smaller one.
17 Q. And was it the same size, approximately, as
18 the smaller one that the prisoners were given, or was
19 it even smaller than that?
20 A. Still smaller than theirs.
21 Q. Can you just please again with your hands
22 indicate, show us about the size of the -- the guards
23 would get.
24 A. Like this (indicating).
25 Q. Now, I assume, since you were told
1 approximately how many prisoners were there, you have
2 some idea of how many personnel there were in the
3 Celebici barracks. About how much -- about how many
4 people worked in the Celebici barracks that you would
5 bring food for? Not the prisoners.
6 A. I don't know that, madam, because the number
7 of them would change. The kitchen would sometimes give
8 food for eight, sometimes for ten. It kept changing.
9 Q. Well, do you remember, approximately, how
10 many loaves of bread you would bring for the personnel?
11 A. Five. Up to six, at the most.
12 Q. Now, would you bring utensils for the
14 A. I did not have an opportunity to see them,
15 and, in fact, madam, I just drove the vehicle and my
16 colleague handled the food. I drove the vehicle and I
17 am just telling you what I could see indirectly.
18 Because I did not pay attention that much. I am just
19 speaking from my memory and I am telling you what I can
20 remember. And I remember that I had troubles with this
21 vehicle because I had troubles with it all the time. I
22 was always weary of whether there would be -- whether
23 the tires would blow or there the oil would run out.
24 So I did not pay that much attention to any of this.
25 Q. Now, you also talked about bringing coffee
1 and tea and eggs. Was that for the prisoners or for
2 the personnel or both?
3 A. Madam, it was the same for both, the
4 prisoners. They would receive the same eggs, the same
5 tea, the same coffee. It was the same quantities for
7 Q. And what kind of containers would the coffee
8 and the tea for the prisoners come in?
9 A. In the same containers, except that they were
10 washed, because they were Teflon containers. They were
11 not -- they were not pots. They were airtight, so that
12 -- so they would keep the food warm until it was
13 brought to these points. And eggs we brought in large
14 pots like this.
15 Q. And approximately how many -- how often would
16 you bring eggs to the prisoners in Celebici?
17 A. I can't recall that.
18 Q. And is it the case that you would bring
19 coffee and tea for the prisoners, breakfast, lunch and
21 A. Madam, I said that coffee came for breakfast
22 or it was tea, and then with tea or tea or coffee there
23 was eggs or honey, small packages of honey.
24 Q. So the coffee and tea would only be for
25 breakfast and not for lunch and dinner; is that
2 A. Yes, madam, you are right.
3 Q. And so would the prisoners come, bring the
4 food, and then come back for the coffee and tea for
5 these big containers of coffee and tea?
6 JUDGE JAN: How would he know that?
7 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, Your Honour.
8 JUDGE JAN: He must have left again by the
9 time the prisoners ate their meal, because he had to go
10 to other locations. How would he know?
11 MS. McHENRY: They may have done it at the
12 same time or he may have seen it on the way back. If
13 he doesn't know, he can say, "I don't know."
14 Q. Do you know, sir? Did you ever see any
15 prisoner with a container of coffee or tea?
16 A. Madam, I saw them carrying eggs and coffee or
17 tea. They were carrying it away in front of the
18 administration building.
19 Q. And would they get either coffee or tea every
21 MS. BOLER: I am going to object that this
22 line of questioning is irrelevant, besides being asked
23 and answered.
24 A. Would you repeat the question.
25 MS. McHENRY:
1 Q. Did the prisoners get coffee or tea every day
2 for breakfast?
3 A. No they did not, no.
4 Q. And can you estimate how often they would get
5 coffee or tea, or you just don't remember?
6 A. I cannot remember how many times, but it was
7 frequently that they would receive this type of food.
8 Q. Now, sir, were there some occasions where you
9 couldn't bring food three times a day to Celebici?
10 A. No, never. It never happened that we could
11 not bring food every day, but since Konjic was shelled
12 all the time, we would sometimes have to wait until the
13 shelling stopped, because we would wait at the mess
14 hall for several hours. So if there was shelling in
15 the morning, the breakfast would be a bit late, but
16 maybe up to an hour, because we could not leave.
17 Q. But you are sure that every day the prisoners
18 -- you delivered food to Celebici three times, three
19 separate times; is that correct?
20 A. Yes, that is correct, ma'am. That is the way
21 you put it.
22 Q. Now, you talked about seeing a Mr. Masic, you
23 saw persons at the gate giving items to Mr. Masic. Do
24 you remember that?
25 A. As I said, ma'am, I did see Mr. Masic, as he
1 was receiving these packages, and I saw groups of
2 people, elderly women and children, to the left as you
3 were entering the barracks.
4 Q. Now, am I correct that you never saw the
5 prisoners being given any of those items? I am not
6 saying it didn't happen, but you never saw it, did you?
7 A. Yes, you are right.
8 Q. Now, you talked about these receipts that you
9 would -- well, actually, let me back up. So if I
10 understand you correctly, you would never bring
11 breakfast and lunch at the same time, or lunch and
12 dinner at the same time? It would always be separate
13 because you would go three times; is that correct?
14 A. Madam, I had to, because Celebici was just up
15 one point for me. I had another five points beyond
16 Celebici, because soldiers had -- if there was food, he
17 had to receive breakfast, lunch and dinner.
18 Q. Well, sometimes, because you had so many
19 places to go and because of problems, would you deliver
20 lunch and dinner at the same time -- with the same
22 A. No, ma'am, it never happened that way.
23 Q. Now, you indicated that at least in 1996 you
24 had possession of some receipts. The receipts you had
25 from when you delivered food to Celebici, would you get
1 a receipt every time that you brought food or just some
3 A. Ma'am, I said that this was a logbook --
4 actually, it was four with receipts and let's say it
5 stated there 100 loaves were issued and 500 meals, and
6 then you had to go to Podgradac, Ostrozac, Loncari, the
7 school, Glavicine, and I had to deliver it to all these
8 points, this food.
9 Q. My question was, when you delivered food to
10 Celebici, would someone sign every time you delivered
11 food to indicate receipt of the food?
12 A. Of course, that had to be done. Because we
13 had control. Because my superior controlled this. It
14 was my colleagues duties, but if he didn't do it, I had
15 to do it.
16 Q. And you indicated that at least in 1996 you
17 gave certain receipts to Mr. Nehir. Do you remember
18 approximately how many receipts you gave Mr. Nehir,
19 just approximately?
20 A. Ma'am, I gave it to Mr. Nehir. Mr. Nehir
21 photocopied them and I saw some of these receipts
22 photocopied with him. But what he did with them -- I
23 used to have the originals, as I said, maybe it would
24 have been easier on both of us if I had given -- if I
25 had this to give you, but my basement was flooded, so
1 it was -- it has all perished.
2 Q. Well, do you remember, when you saw that
3 Mr. Nehir had photocopied some receipts, do you have
4 any idea about how many receipts Mr. Nehir had
6 A. I believe that Ms. Nancy or Christina may be
7 familiar with that. Think that they took it.
8 Q. And did someone recently show you any of
9 those photocopies?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. When was the last time you saw some
12 photocopies of your receipts?
13 A. Before I came here, when I couldn't, when I,
14 and when I asked them to talk to my mother about it.
15 Q. And do you remember, approximately, how many
16 receipts you saw?
17 A. I believe three or four, ma'am.
18 MS. McHENRY: Your Honour, I'd ask that the
19 witness be shown three documents. We have extra
20 copies. They were received from Defence.
21 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: It's time for a break
22 and we'll reassemble at 1.00. The Trial Chamber will
23 now reassemble at noon.
24 --- Recess taken at 11.30 a.m.
25 --- On resuming at 12.05 p.m.
1 THE REGISTRAR: I remind you, sir, that you
2 are still under oath.
3 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: You may proceed,
4 Mrs. McHenry.
5 MS. McHENRY:
6 Q. May I ask that the witness be shown Defence
7 Exhibit 23, 24 and 25/3. These have previously been
8 shown by Mr. Moran, but they have not been admitted.
9 JUDGE JAN: These are the receipts?
10 MS. McHENRY: Yes, Your Honour.
11 Q. Sir, do you recognise those documents, and if
12 so, can you tell us what they are, please?
13 A. Yes. This is what I was talking about. And
14 there are other two or three documents, ma'am. But I
15 don't know why the Defence didn't show them. It was
16 kept in a book and this is what they looked like. I
17 don't know why this logbook wasn't shown. I gave this
18 book, which contained the signatures of Mr. Hazim Delic
19 and some other signatures. There are two. And they
20 are not like this. These are in a logbook. But this
21 is also right.
22 Q. Okay. So if I understand you, there were
23 some receipts that were kept separate and there was
24 another logbook that had Mr. Delic's signature and
25 other peoples on it; is that correct?
1 A. No, ma'am, that's not correct, because we ran
2 out of these receipts and, therefore, the rest was kept
3 in the logbook. And Mr. Nehir took these away from me,
4 and I don't know why he showed them to you -- why he
5 did not show them to you, these -- this logbook exists.
6 Q. And do you -- have you seen the logbook
7 recently? Do you have any idea where it is now?
8 A. I saw it at Mr. Nehir's, as I said earlier,
9 the last time when he spoke to me, and I don't know
10 where it is now, whether it's here or not. But I saw
11 it in his possession when he was in Konjic. Maybe you
12 should ask Mr. Saloh (sic).
13 Q. I'm sorry, is the interpreter going to
14 correct something?
15 THE INTERPRETER: Mr. Karabdic.
16 MS. McHENRY:
17 Q. Mr. Nehir is an investigator who works for
18 Mr. Karabdic; is that correct?
19 A. That's what he said to me, yes.
20 Q. Can I just ask that you sort of now look at
21 this document, and let me start, please, with the
22 document dated the 15th of June.
23 MR. DURIC: If I may interrupt for a very
24 brief moment, Your Honours. These translations are a
25 little bit deficient, because according to the original
1 photocopy, which I believe these are, in the second
2 column there is the word -- an abbreviation, KOM, which
3 in Croatian means peace. This particular indication
4 does not appear in the English translation. This is
5 left vacant. On the column which is titled "measure"
6 there is a blank space. It should be filled with the
7 proper translation which appears in the Croatian
9 MS. McHENRY: These were --
10 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: If you have any other
11 observation, make them, please.
12 MR. DURIC: Okay, thank you very much.
13 MS. McHENRY:
14 Q. Now, sir, referring to the document dated the
15 15th of June, which is D24/3. Can you tell me whose
16 signature appears on those -- on it, if you know?
17 A. This is my signature here on the right-hand
18 side, and the goods which were taken from the
19 warehouse, Almir Musinovic. This is how I took the
20 goods from the warehouse, and it was then loaded into
21 the car and taken further. That's why I am telling you
22 that there was another logbook, and I -- it's really
23 strange, ma'am, that these documents are not here,
24 because I gave them to Nehir to copy them. And it's
25 really strange that you don't have them.
1 Q. I wish I had them too, sir. So would anybody
2 on this kind of receipt, would anybody from -- at the
3 prison sign this document, or is it only you and the
4 person at the warehouse?
5 A. The person who issued -- the person issued
6 this -- these goods at the warehouse, and I took them,
7 and then these goods were taken further to the point of
9 Q. And when you -- would you bring this bill --
10 this receipt to Celebici and would someone from
11 Celebici sign it, or is that separate? That's this
12 logbook that you were telling about that you gave to
13 Mr. Nehir?
14 A. Could you please repeat the first part of
15 your question.
16 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: I think counsel is
17 suggesting, when you brought it to the Celebici
18 barracks and somebody received it from you, did that
19 person sign it?
20 A. Yes. Yes.
21 MS. McHENRY:
22 Q. And so on this document, D24, does the
23 signature of anyone from Celebici appear?
24 A. Naturally, ma'am, what I gave to Mr. Nehir
25 contains all of that, who gave the goods, who received
1 the goods.
2 Q. Okay. So it's not -- it would not be on this
3 receipt, it would be on this other logbook that you
4 gave to Mr. Nehir?
5 A. Yes, ma'am, that's correct. This is a
6 receipt that I took from -- that I took from the
7 warehouse, this and the other one, and the third one
9 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: If you look at this, it
10 says fully transferred and dispatched by Turin (Phon).
11 This time when he signed for it. It's not likely to be
12 the one he delivered to some other group at Celebici.
13 MS. McHENRY: Your Honour, I think if you
14 look at the original, which the English is, the
15 following items were dispatched, is part of a form,
16 either by train, post, crate or package, and it appears
17 that none of them are indicated. And this witness has
18 said these are -- reflects the goods that he received.
19 Q. So, sir, am I correct that on this form you
20 wouldn't -- would not fill out, that you were taking
21 these items by car? Sir, if you look at the document,
22 is that just part of the form that you would not fill
23 out, sir?
24 A. I only signed this, ma'am, that I received
25 the goods, and then I dispatched it further, because
1 the goods could not go anywhere without that. And this
2 was under the control of Mr. Mirsad Ramic, and the
3 person who worked in the warehouse, Mr. Almir, was
4 responsible for the goods and me and Mr. Landzo would
5 just distribute it.
6 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: If you look at this, it
7 shows that the person who issued it to him, and he is
8 receiving it. These are the only signatures which are
9 here. Not the person who received it from him.
10 MS. McHENRY: That's what he said. My
11 question had to be I wasn't sure what was this
12 signature under which where it says Ustalic. That was
13 my question. But he's answered it and Your Honour is
15 Q. Now, sir, this book by -- that you gave
16 Mr. Nehir, and you've indicated that it is your own
17 book, would it be acceptable for you if I looked at
18 that book? In other words, sir, if it's your book, you
19 could ask -- I am wondering whether or not you would
20 agree that I can ask Mr. Karabdic to show me your book,
21 since he's now in possession of it, or his defence.
22 Is that okay with you?
23 A. Absolutely, yes.
24 Q. Thank you. I would call on Mr. Karabdic to
25 make available to me now or in the near future a copy
1 of the book.
2 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Has he got it in his
4 MR. KARABDIC: The investigator received this
5 logbook, this is what I was informed, and from this
6 book he copied only those parts where he could find the
7 signature of Hazim Delic, and after that he returned
8 this book to Mr. Ustalic. I have several copies where
9 the signature of Mr. Ustalic appears.
10 MS. McHENRY: Your Honour, at some point I am
11 going to ask just for a five minute break just so I can
12 talk with an interpreter, since I don't understand any
13 Serbo-Croatian, but it should just be a five minute
14 break, and I don't have many more questions.
15 Q. Now, sir, with respect to the document dated
16 -- well, let me go then to the document dated the 16th
17 of June, sir. That document says that the items are
18 being dispatched for Celebici prison, and then it says
19 "lunch and dinner." Does that mean that this material
20 that you were picking up was supposed to be the lunch
21 and the dinner of the Celebici -- for the Celebici
23 A. Ma'am, you are right, this is what it was
24 like, lunch and dinner, because at that time the
25 kitchen in Igman was shelled and there was no
1 electricity there, and I remember very well these
2 pates, which were called Ding Dong, and they were given
4 Q. And would you deliver them at once, the lunch
5 and the dinner at the same time, or would you deliver
6 them separately?
7 A. This was an exceptional circumstance, ma'am.
8 As I said, the kitchen was shelled and we could not
9 approach the kitchen. There was no electricity or
10 anything else. And this was an exceptional
11 circumstance because the soldiers also received the
12 same food, bread, pates, from the same receipt.
13 Q. Well, actually, let me ask you that also,
14 with respect to that -- besides the food for the
15 prisoners and for the personnel, the guards at
16 Celebici, would you deliver food for anyone else in
17 Celebici, besides the prisoners and the guards?
18 JUDGE JAN: And the weapons.
19 MS. McHENRY:
20 Q. And the weapons people, yes, Your Honour. I
21 am asking whether or not there were significant numbers
22 of soldiers who were in the Celebici barracks besides
23 the guards, and if so, would you deliver food for them?
24 A. The food was distributed, ma'am, to Celebici
25 to the number of guards who were there. If there was a
1 larger number, that that would be reported. And the
2 barracks, ma'am, in Celebici, was called a school, and
3 this was where another unit was placed before the
4 prison this used to be a school and there was a unit
5 there, which was also called the barracks. And the
6 soldiers there would also receive the same food. This
7 was a group from Prozor.
8 Q. And once the prison was established, would
9 there -- were there significant numbers of soldiers who
10 were in the Celebici barracks compound or had they left
11 by the time it became a prison?
12 A. Well, let me tell you. At the very beginning
13 there was a special unit of MUP there, before the
14 prisoners, ma'am. At the beginning there was a special
15 unit of MUP there, which was -- whose commander was
16 Rale Musinovic, and from what I could notice, there
17 were some soldiers of HVO there, to whom I also brought
18 the food, and from what I heard, I'm not sure, I wasn't
19 sure, and I was not in the position to find out about
20 these things, I heard that Alibasic, Dzevad Alibasic
21 was the commanding officer of this unit and Rale
22 Musinovic was the commanding officer of this special
23 unit of MUP which consisted of seven to ten people at
24 most. Delja Micic (Phon), Mitko Pjric (Phon) they also
25 belonged to this special unit.
1 Q. And when, to your knowledge, did these people
2 that you just talked about, when did they leave the
4 A. They were there for a very short time, ma'am.
5 Q. Now, let me ask you now about the last
6 document, D25, which is the document dated the 17th of
7 July. Now, sir, there's been a large -- there's been
8 some testimony that in the middle of July the prisoners
9 in Celebici went a significant period of time without
10 food, and then they finally received some meat pate.
11 Does that refresh your recollection as to whether or
12 not in mid-July there were some exceptional
13 circumstances, like the ones we saw before where the
14 prisoners did not get -- did not get food for some
16 Do you remember whether or not in mid-July
17 you remember that the prisoners did not get food for
18 more than one day. We'll start off with that.
19 A. Ma'am, you are right, you are very well
20 informed. The food would come, but there was no bread,
21 because the bakery was shelled and the equipment in the
22 bakery was demolished, and after three days we would
23 receive bread from Podgradac and the soldiers on the
24 front lines and other points also did not receive
25 bread, because the bakery was shelled, and my house is
1 close to the bakery, 20 metres away. And that's
3 Q. I would ask that documents D23, 24 and 25 be
4 admitted into evidence.
5 MR. DURIC: I object to that Your Honours. I
6 have a few objections to it. Namely, to the probative
7 value of these documents. Because if you look at
8 document -- in English -- in Croatian, here to some
9 extent we can discern the signature of a certain
10 Musinovic or whatever. However, as far as the other
11 two documents are concerned, we cannot do that. Just a
12 scribbling down there in the lower left-hand corner.
13 And so I would move that these documents be first
14 certified by someone, because otherwise they cannot be
15 admitted, both to its contents or to their form. And
16 so they have no probative value. Because as someone
17 who certify it would never write down a name which is
18 not legible. He would just put a remark "illegible"
19 and here it appears the name of a certain Musinovic
20 which no one can actually discern from this scribbling
21 down here.
22 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: If that's your only
23 objection --
24 MR. DURIC: This is my objection and these
25 documents are not complete. I have already stated this
1 objection on the record. Because there are certain
2 things omitted from the original document --
3 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Well, there are two
4 signatures there. There is one by Musinovic, then
5 there is one by this witness. In fact, he is at the
6 receiving end. Is he the one receiving it.
7 MR. DURIC: I was --
8 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: I am listening to you.
9 MR. DURIC: Okay.
10 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: So let's us see what the
11 reply of the Prosecution is to it.
12 MR. DURIC: But I haven't finished. I have
13 one more objection as to the other signature. Because
14 if you would compare this statement of September the
15 20, 1996, where it appears and alleges a statement by
16 Mr. Ustalic, our witness, we would see a great
17 discrepancy from the signature on these documents that
18 we are talking about and that statement. And I would
19 also raise, you know, objection as to the authenticity
20 of all of these documents so much as far as this
21 concerned. Thank you very much.
22 JUDGE JAN: These documents relate to the
23 Defence of Hazim Delic. And you do not -- at all in
24 these documents. These documents were shown to the
25 witness by Mr. Hazim Delic's counsel. These documents
1 are signed by this witness. These documents are signed
2 by a gentleman who signed these documents in his
3 presence. What is your objection?
4 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Let's hear the
5 Prosecution reply.
6 MS. McHENRY: Well, Your Honour, with respect
7 to the exact translation, I am happy to submit them to
8 the translation section, because the translations are
9 just what we received from the Defence. In any event,
10 the documents are relevant. In particular, we believe
11 they may be probative evidence regarding the inhumane
12 conditions count. And this witness has authenticated
13 them, and that's -- and if Defence counsel wants to in
14 re-examination, if he has relevant evidence, to try to
15 impeach them, he can. But as of now this witness has
16 authenticated them, they are relevant, and we
17 respectfully submit they should be admitted.
18 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Actually, we were
19 listening to the arguments and I didn't see the
20 relevance of the objection of counsel for the second
22 JUDGE JAN: Mr. Moran, any objections.
23 MR. MORAN: No, Your Honour, I voice no
24 objection. I am the one who originally showed them to
25 the witness.
1 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: I don't see the point to
2 it. They are admitted. And it's quite relevant as to
3 how food was delivered to the Celebici camp. The
4 content is quite a different thing. It indicates that
5 food was delivered and by this witness. So I don't see
6 the problem. So you can, and if you have any other --
7 MS. McHENRY: Yes. Just a couple of
9 Q. Now, sir, on a different matter. I don't
10 have any more questions about these documents. On a
11 different matter, you said that you knew someone who
12 picked up the food sometimes, Mr. Vukasin Mrkajic, and
13 you were not allowed to talk to him. How did you know
14 that you were not allowed to talk to him? Did someone
15 tell you that?
16 A. Madam, I had a principle.
17 Q. And what was your principle?
18 A. The reason was that they were the prisoners,
19 and I was a member of the Territorial Defence, and as
20 it was said, it was alleged, there were -- they had
21 been detained because they had carried arms. So did I
22 not want to have any contact with them. I told you
23 that I saw him while I was checking on my oil or my
24 tires. Landzo could have contact with him. So I just
25 saw him. I was only a driver there.
1 Q. Now, did you ever see any women that you
2 believed were prisoners in Celebici?
3 A. Yes, I did see one woman, Grozdana Cecez.
4 She was there once, and I saw her twice while I was
5 delivering food. She was in front of the
6 administration building.
7 Q. And when you talked about two girls who
8 sometimes were there when you brought the food and
9 would help take the food, you are not talking about
10 Mrs. Cecez or any detainees, are you, these two girls
11 that you mentioned previously who would sometimes help
12 take the food? Am I correct, that these two girls who
13 helped take the food were not Mrs. Cecez, and did you
14 not believe that they were prisoners in the camp?
15 A. No, no, no. They were not. They were local
16 women who were working there. They would bring the
17 empty containers there and in the beginning, Sejvudin
18 Sok was the one who was receiving food. Later on it
19 was the two girls. I believe that one of her names was
20 Meliha. And I was too busy, ma'am. As I told you, I
21 would get up 4.30 in the morning and I worked until
22 10.00 in the evening. I couldn't get enough sleep, let
23 alone anything else. Madam, in this war I drove 800 --
24 860.000 kilometres. Later on I was transferred to
25 other duties. Thank God I never had any accident. I
1 never had a tire blow out or anything. So I took good
2 care of my vehicle, I took care of the oil change and
3 everything. I was even cited for that. Later on I was
4 transferred to the corps and it was a promotion. And
5 this is where I was assigned to the duties of driver
7 Q. And were you ever told anything about why
8 Mrs. Grozdana Cecez was in the camp?
9 A. No, ma'am, I had no one to contact with about
10 that. Because I spent very little time there. I had
11 very little contact with them. And, madam, I know
12 Grozdana Cecez from the civilian life, both her and her
13 husband, they had a big house down at the river. And I
14 used to fish. So I would leave my boat there quite
15 often at their place. So this is how I knew this
17 Q. And, sir, a different subject. Would you
18 deliver food to the weapons warehouse where Mr. Tabak
19 was three times a day or only sometimes?
20 A. Three times a day, madam, as I said before.
21 Q. And was Mr. Tabak there all the time?
22 A. No, because somehow they had shifts. Some of
23 them would go out in the field. There were three,
24 sorry, there was Nurko Tabak and I know another name,
25 Krnic was his name. And there was a third man. And
1 they would always go out in the field, so there would
2 be one or maybe two at the most who were there.
3 Q. But one of them would always be there, but it
4 just would vary which one it would be; at least one,
6 A. You are right.
7 Q. Now, you indicated that you saw Mr. Esad
8 Landzo in the camp. Can you give us some idea about
9 how -- how many times you saw Mr. Esad Landzo in the
10 camp? I mean, are we talking once a week, once a day,
11 once a month?
12 A. Believe me, if I, for instance, saw him at
13 breakfast, I don't see him at lunch or dinner. For a
14 very brief period Landzo was there and I did not see
15 him -- I saw him at five or six times. He was at the
16 gate. He would open the gate. And I told you I could
17 not even recognise him in the Courtroom.
18 MS. McHENRY: Your Honours, at this time I
19 would just ask for a five-minute break while I just go
20 very briefly consult with an interpreter about the
21 document that I was just given.
22 MR. MORAN: Your Honour, if they want, we can
23 just let the witness read it out loud, read it right
24 into the record. It's his handwriting, presumably, he
25 can see it. Let's just put it right on the record, the
1 one page we have.
2 A. Fine by me.
3 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: You think the document
4 is incomplete without your having the translation? If
5 that is the only case, one can get the interpreters to
6 translate, and then you take it up.
7 MS. McHENRY: Yes, Your Honour. It may well
8 be that I don't have any questions about it, but it may
9 be that I would have one or two questions for this
10 witness about it. But, since this is the first time
11 I've seen it, and I don't speak or read Serbo-Croatian,
12 I just would like a --
13 JUDGE JAN: Not even by now.
14 MS. McHENRY: Not even by now, sir. My
15 language abilities, I think you can tell from my
16 pronunciation, are very limited.
17 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: My problem is rising for
18 five minutes for a matter which merely marginal. so
19 let's see whether perhaps the interpreters can
20 interpret the area you think is difficult to
21 comprehend, and then you make up your mind after the
22 interpretation what you intend to do. Five minutes is
23 too short for everything, and I hear this is the last
24 witness for the accused persons. So it's too short for
25 one to bother.
1 MS. McHENRY: So Your Honours would like me
2 to give it to an interpreter now --
3 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Yes, that is what I
5 MS. McHENRY: Mrs. Residovic has offered, if
6 you could just give me a moment. May I go consult with
7 Mrs. Residovic.
8 JUDGE JAN: You couldn't get a better
10 MS. RESIDOVIC: Your Honours, all of us
11 understand the language can read it out and all the
12 interpreters can just interpret it. I can do it,
13 Mr. Karabdic can do it, whoever.
14 JUDGE JAN: You are going back on your
16 MS. RESIDOVIC: That is my offer, yes, one of
17 the persons who speaks the language can read it. If
18 this is my handwriting, I can read it.
19 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Kindly read it out so
20 that the interpreter can pick it up. And we'll get an
22 MS. McHENRY: The registrar has kindly
23 pointed out that she can do it.
24 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Oh, that's good. Thank
25 you very much. Have you a good offer here. An
1 official offer.
2 THE REGISTRAR: "The guards at Celebici, 17
3 July 1992, 35 lunches, 7 loaves of bread received." The
4 signature, I'm not sure what it is.
5 MS. McHENRY: That's fine.
6 MR. MORAN: It's Mr. Delic's.
7 THE REGISTRAR: "Delic. 35 dinners, 7 loaves
8 of bread received by Delic. Celebici guard, 18 July
9 1992, breakfast for 35 persons." I think it's -- I
10 believe it's, "Seven loaves of bread received by Kemo
11 Mrdzic. Celebici guard, 18 July, 1992, 7 loaves of
12 bread, lunch for 35 persons, received by Kemo Mrdzic.
13 Celebici guard, 19 July 1992, for 35 persons, 7 loaves
14 of bread, breakfast for 35 persons, lunch for 35
16 MS. McHENRY: Thank you. May I ask that this
17 document be shown to the witness now. I do have just
18 one or two questions.
19 Q. Sir, do you recognise that as excerpts from
20 the logbook that you already testified about that you
21 gave to Mr. Nehir? I'm sorry, could you just repeat it
22 so the interpreters can hear your answer.
23 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Kindly tell him this was
24 the excerpt from the logbook. He didn't copy it, so he
25 might not recognise it. It's not denied that it was
1 copied from the logbook. So put it straight to him.
2 MS. McHENRY:
3 Q. Sir, do you recognise this as a copy of the
4 logbook that was your logbook?
5 A. Yes, ma'am, that is from that logbook.
6 Q. And does that reflect the deliveries you made
7 to the Celebici prison on the dates indicated?
8 A. That should be so, madam. That is correct.
9 That is the logbook. That is the handwriting. But
10 there's more than this, Madam Teresa. If this is
11 Celebici guard, there's also Celebici -- there's also
12 the ones who were in the school. That was the
13 barracks, you see. So maybe that's what that is
14 referring to. So I cannot tell you specifically. It
15 is possible that Celebici school. Also there was a
16 part of military there. So now Celebici guard, that
17 was where the unit was, but there were also some
18 wounded people. So we may be confusing this. I am not
19 sure. And I am not even competent to answer this
20 because Mirsad Landzo would -- may be the one to really
21 confirm this.
22 Q. Well, sir, you would agree with me, wouldn't
23 you, that Mr. Mrdzic and Mr. Delic would sign on behalf
24 of the Celebici prison and not on behalf of soldiers
25 who were in a school?
1 A. Madam Teresa, I said, when I would enter the
2 barracks where the prisoners were, ma'am, where the
3 prisoners were. There, any guard could sign, madam,
4 who would be there, who were in front of the
5 administration building, could sign this. So any
6 guard. However, whether this is one of these, I don't
7 know. However, what I do see, there is a signature of
8 Delic. If that is so, that would be from the barracks
9 where the prisoners were, this document. If this is
10 Hazim Delic's signature. And I read it Delic here.
11 So, in other words, this should be from the
12 Celebici barracks where the prisoners were. Don't
13 misunderstand me. There were two barracks, one was in
14 the school, the so-called Celebici barracks, and the
15 other one was the barracks where the prisoners were.
16 MS. McHENRY: I would ask that this be marked
17 and admitted into evidence, Your Honours. He has
18 recognised it as a copy of his logbook and indicates
19 that, because it reflects the name Mr. Delic, and I
20 believe Defence counsel has agreed it's Mr. Delic's
21 signature, it would refer to the barracks -- it would
22 refer to the Celebici prison. So I would ask that it
23 be admitted into evidence.
24 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Any objection?
25 MR. MORAN: No objection, Your Honour.
1 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Mark it --
2 THE REGISTRAR: Prosecution Exhibit 258.
3 MS. McHENRY: And I have no further questions
4 for this witness. Thank you, sir --
5 JUDGE JAN: I have a question for this
7 MS. McHENRY: Okay. I would be requesting
8 that the statement which he previously identified be
9 admitted solely for the purposes of determining to what
10 extent this witness has been impeached.
11 JUDGE JAN: May I ask a question? You have
12 said, Mr. Ustalic, that you delivered 70 breads every
13 day, but the number of breads given in these receipts
14 in this logbook is much less. How do you explain that?
15 A. Sir, this would be for the guard. If that is
16 what it says, it would be for the guards. However, I
17 did say that the logbook existed where the food for the
18 prisoners were -- was logged. It would not be the same
20 JUDGE JAN: So this is not the food for the
22 A. No, sir. No. It shouldn't be. Because it
23 states that it's for the guard, so I believe it's
25 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: What you are saying,
1 that when you take the delivery to the camp, there are
2 so many units in the camp to which you take food to?
3 A. Yes, Your Honour, there were two -- there
4 were two at the command building and the other one
5 where the weapons person were, where Mr. Nurko Tabak
6 was. So I would drop off at two points.
7 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: It would include the
8 prisoners, too, in the food you take to the camp?
9 A. Correct. Correct.
10 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: This is what I want to
11 know. Those who were working there and the prisoners,
12 all of them, you take food to them at the same time?
13 A. That is correct, sir. The food would be
14 unloaded in front of the administration building. One
15 large and one small container would be carried off by
16 the prisoners, and these were square, and one smaller
17 one would go to the guards. And as far as Mr. Tabak,
18 we would ladle out food for them from another container
19 which went down to Podgradac and so on, because they
20 had their own plates and they had their own cutlery,
21 which they used.
22 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: You really cannot be
23 definite as to who receives which, whether any person
24 receives a particular one, whether somebody receives
25 for the prisoners; all you do is to take food to the
1 place? People receive them from you?
2 A. Your Honour, let me repeat this. I was the
3 driver, and my colleague was the one who was delivering
4 food, and he had the best knowledge of this. So I was
5 -- I could only be directly involved. I was more
6 concerned with the vehicle. You know, it was in such
7 bad shape that I had to add oil every 100 or so
8 kilometres. It was a real jalopy.
9 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Thank you very much.
10 Any re-examination?
11 MR. MORAN: Yes, Your Honour.
12 Re-examination by Mr. Moran
13 Q. I have a few questions to clear up some
14 things, some confusion I have in my mind based on
15 cross-examination, and I am going to go over a couple
16 of areas. First, remember when Ms. McHenry talked
17 about no food for three days, and you said that the
18 bakery had been blown up. Do you recall that?
19 A. No. Well, it did not blow up. It was
20 shelled and the equipment was damaged, so that bread
21 could not be baked there. That was for three days.
22 And the army, the soldiers, that is the soldier, the
23 front line. And I don't know if I can -- I should
24 explain what -- where Celebici, where the bridge was
25 and all those places.
1 Q. And if I use the wrong word, blown up rather
2 than shelled, I apologise. The question I had was,
3 there was no bread delivery for three days, but was
4 there any food delivered to the soldiers or to the
5 prisoners at the camp or the guards at the camp during
6 that three day period?
7 A. I already said that the cooked food was,
8 there was -- that there were macaroni, there was rice,
9 but there were no -- there was no bread. I didn't eat
10 bread, the commander didn't eat bread, nobody ate
12 Q. There was just some confusion in my mind the
13 way that the question was asked, and I just wanted to
14 clear it up. I am just trying to clear up some things
15 where I have some confusion in my own mind. Nobody is
16 challenging anything you say. Secondly, that document,
17 that part of the logbook that was just shown,
18 Prosecution exhibit whatever it is, that shows food
19 logged in for guards. Would there be a separate
20 receipt or a separate entry for food for prisoners and
21 food for the school, a separate one for that and a
22 separate one for each different group of people?
23 A. Thank you for assisting me here in my
24 answer. This -- I was talking to the madam, there was
25 one part of the logbook where that was entered and
1 another one -- the other part was entered. Everything
2 had to be accounted for, and Mr. Kevric was in charge
3 of -- we talked both to Mr. -- we reported to both
4 Mr. Kevric and Mr. Ramic.
5 Q. What I am getting at is there would be a
6 separate part of the logbook for the prisoners, a
7 separate part for the people in the school, a separate
8 part for each unit, so that you could account for the
9 food going to each different group; is that right?
10 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: I suppose that is
11 understandable. He couldn't mix
12 them up --
13 MR. MORAN: Yes, Your Honour. There was some
14 confusion in my mind as to whether or not that entry
15 reflected all of the food delivered to Celebici on
16 those days or just to the guards. Yes, sir.
17 A. Apologies. There is a possibility,
18 gentlemen, when the kitchen at the Igman Company was
19 shelled -- you just triggered off my memory. The food
20 was first cooked at the Cipad Factory because at Igman
21 we could not cook it no more. But nobody asked me
22 anything about this. It's not that all the food all
23 the time came from the Igman factory. It couldn't
25 Q. No, sir. And wherever it came from, I just
1 want to make sure that the food got to the Celebici
2 camp and the Celebici prisoners, wherever you picked it
3 up is really ... Now, let's talk a little bit about
4 that logbook. You testified that you gave the logbook
5 to Mr. Nehir, and he made some copies and then he gave
6 the logbook back to you, and that's what was destroyed
7 in the flood in your basement; is that right?
8 A. Correct.
9 Q. Do you know how much of that logbook
10 Mr. Nehir copied? Did you watch him copy it?
11 A. Let me tell you. My first meeting with Nehir
12 was such -- I have to say this, because I came here to
13 speak the truth. I am not shying away from speaking
14 the truth out here.
15 MR. MORAN: Your Honour, I just want to know
16 if he photocopied them in Mr. Ustalic's presence or
17 whether he borrowed the book, photocopied whatever he
18 wanted to photocopy and then returned it.
19 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: His evidence was that he
20 gave it to him, and that he made his own copies.
21 MR. MORAN: I just wanted to make sure that
22 Mr. Ustalic --
23 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: So definitely was the
24 one he was copying which are put in --
25 MR. MORAN: Your Honour, if the Court is
1 clear on that, I'm fine. That's what I thought the
2 answer was, but I just wanted to make sure --
3 A. I am sorry. Couldn't I just explain how I
4 first got in touch with this person, let the Trial
5 Chamber know about this.
6 Q. Sure.
7 A. Who he was and what he was there for.
8 Q. Yes, sir.
9 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Yes, he can. You can
11 MR. MORAN: Yes, sir.
12 A. The first time I had contact with Nehir --
13 what's his last name? I'm sorry, I really can't recall
14 now. Okay. Right. Hazim Delic's lady came to my
15 place, we received her. My wife is a hairdresser and
16 she is her client. So she came to me and they just
17 asked me nicely if I had any of this. "Do you have
18 it?" "Yes, I do. No problems. If there is anything I
19 can do for you, I can do it, about this logbook." So I
20 gave them the logbook. Madam Nancy can confirm how
21 long this logbook was away from me, because when she
22 came to Konjic to take a statement for me regarding
23 Mr. Zenga, I asked her to tell Nehir to return me this
24 document, because every document -- I know every single
25 detail how much gasoline I poured at any given time in
1 1992. So I have everything.
2 This logbook was not copied in front of me,
3 and certain pages were torn off, and I -- and I minded
4 that. I said that to Madam Nancy. And then when I
5 asked for it, I got it back. And I am really sorry,
6 because I asked for this logbook, I wanted to bring it
7 over here, so that the truth could be seen to what the
8 truth is.
9 Q. That logbook is the one that was destroyed in
10 the flood in your basement; is that correct?
11 A. That's correct. You are right.
12 Q. Okay. And one other thing, and I think that
13 I am done, sir, and I will thank you very much. You
14 talked about the fence or the cable or the chain across
15 the road. Was that just a chain that was between two
16 posts that would prevent you from driving through and
17 somebody could unhook the chain, if someone was
18 authorised to drive down that road? Is that what it
20 A. I said to Madam Teresa, it was a wire,
21 something like this. Madam Teresa allowed me to use my
22 hands. I don't know if this is allowable. It was just
23 a simple wire. The first day I was even told that I
24 couldn't go there, that I was prohibited from going
25 there. So after that I never tried to go there.
1 Because I would -- I would spend very little time
2 there. So I could never saw whether somebody passed
3 through there or not, because I was there for a very
4 short period of time.
5 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Mr. Moran, I don't see
6 any need for that re-examination.
7 MR. MORAN: Yes, Your Honour. Your Honour, I
8 have no further questions.
9 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Thank you very much. I
10 think we are grateful to your assistance. You have
11 been very helpful to the Trial Chamber.
12 A. Thank you very much. My apologies for having
13 arrived in this attire. I could not get something
14 better to wear. I arrived last night very late, and so
15 my apologies for showing up in Court dressed like
17 (The witness withdrew)
18 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Thank you. I think this
19 is your last witness, is it?
20 MR. MORAN: Your Honour, based on this
21 witness's testimony, we would like to produce
22 Mr. Nehir. Unfortunately, we put him back on a plane
23 to Sarajevo this morning, not knowing this would become
24 controversial. Other than that, we would rest, subject
25 to a motion, a possible motion to reopen if we can
1 authenticate a videotape where we ask for a binding
2 order on the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia to just
3 prove up this videotape of one of the witnesses for the
4 Prosecution. And aside from that, if the Trial Chamber
5 wants to hear Mr. Nehir, we'll get him back here as
6 quick as we can. Otherwise, we would rest, subject to
7 a possible motion to reopen, if we can authenticate
8 this videotape.
9 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: I don't know what you
10 have in mind or what you are about.
11 MR. MORAN: Yes, Your Honours. Your Honour,
12 you will recall some weeks ago we requested that the
13 Trial Chamber issue a binding order to the government
14 of the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia to come up with
15 some videotapes. What we have got is a videotape of a
16 witness for the Prosecution being interviewed on
17 television about -- we believe about a month before she
18 appeared at the Trial Chamber, and when she testified
19 she said she didn't remember having been on
20 television. And, as you recall, we -- we wanted to get
21 that in to impeach this woman's ability to recall
23 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: And you haven't got the
25 MR. MORAN: Your Honour, we have the tape,
1 but I cannot authenticate the date. And there is some
2 dispute between -- the Prosecution and I cannot agree
3 on the date that this was filmed. And given that -- as
4 you will recall, I told you I was trying to find some
5 place in United States that takes Croatian and Bosnian
6 and Serbian television off of satellites and
7 re-broadcasts it. We are trying to find this company.
8 We are told it exists.
9 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Well, then --
10 MR. MORAN: Your Honour, if we can't get
11 that, we can't get that. We are trying to get what we
12 can, but subject to that, we would rest.
13 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Yes, I think the time
14 for your losing your Defence is almost here. So if you
15 cannot get it up tomorrow, I think that is all for us.
16 MR. MORAN: Your Honour, like I say, we
17 cannot authenticate the tape, and we cannot agree with
18 the Prosecution. We are rapidly trying our best to do
19 that. The Prosecution has got a copy of it. There is
20 no secret that this thing is floating around out
21 there. It's just a matter of when was it recorded.
22 And I can't prove that right now. I am trying to --
23 I've been trying to find witnesses. I can't get the
24 Federal Republic of Yugoslavia to cooperate. There is
25 no legal requirement at this point for them to
1 cooperate with me. So I am trying to get it from some
2 other source.
3 Clearly, the government of the FRY and the
4 state television is the best, most reliable source for
5 dating this type. I just can't get them to cooperate,
7 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Well, I don't know how
8 important it is to your Defence. Mrs. McHenry.
9 MS. McHENRY: I just want to clarify. I am
10 deferring to the Court on what Mr. Moran has suggested,
11 but I just want to clarify that if the Prosecution
12 believed or had evidence that this videotape was --
13 this witness was interviewed on the date suggested by
14 Mr. Moran, we've told him we would stipulate. He's
15 been unable to provide us that, and in fact there is a
16 suggestion suggesting that maybe the interview was
17 three years earlier. So I just want to sort of clarify
18 the record so it doesn't look like the Prosecution is
19 being unreasonable about this.
20 MR. MORAN: Your Honour, the Prosecution is
21 being completely reasonable about this. No one is
22 accusing the Office of the Prosecutor of being
23 unreasonable. It's just that we can't agree on a date
24 when this occurred. And because we cannot agree on a
25 date, because they in good faith cannot agree with the
1 date that I am suggesting, I am going to have to try
2 and prove it up. And I've been frantically trying to
3 get evidence of that. My office in the states is
4 trying to track this company down, and we just have had
5 no success.
6 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: That's a problem of the
7 investigation, you cannot find your source. You depend
8 on what you have. If it's not probative of what you
9 want to prove, that's the end of it.
10 MR. MORAN: And, Your Honour, if I come up
11 with that, I will file a motion with the Court, and the
12 Trial Chamber can -- will have what I have in front of
13 it and decide what to do.
14 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: As I said, it's not
15 endless. The question of your Defence is not a thing
16 which should never end. It has to end at this stage.
17 MR. MORAN: I concur, Your Honour. I just
18 wanted the Trial Chamber to know what we were trying to
19 do. And anything that would be done beyond this part,
20 this point, would have to be done, clearly, with the
21 permission of the Trial Chamber. And that's just the
22 way things work. That's just how the procedural rules
23 work. At some point it has to end.
24 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: For the time being, I
25 think this is your last witness.
1 MR. MORAN: Yes, Your Honour.
2 MS. RESIDOVIC: Your Honours, on behalf of my
3 colleague and myself, I would just like to apologise
4 for being late after the recess. Because the security
5 system did not -- was not in operation for more than
6 ten minutes, and Madam McHenry was in the middle of her
7 cross-examination. , but I still wanted to apologise
8 for our tardiness. Our apologies.
9 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Thank you very much for
10 your apologies, and it's well accepted. I think
11 we'll --
12 MS. McMURREY: Your Honours, I just wanted to
13 remind the Court that I do have some outstanding
14 motions to designate expert witnesses, and I am
15 scheduled to begin presenting evidence on Monday
16 morning, and my first witnesses are the experts that I
17 am asking the Court to designate. So if we could take
18 this matter up sometime before Monday, it would
19 probably be more expeditious than if we wait until
20 Monday morning to hear them.
21 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Actually, the next
22 matter -- you are the next subject matter.
23 MS. McMURREY: Somehow I knew that.
24 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: So the Trial Chamber
25 will now rise and reassemble at 2.30. And then we'll
1 take up your motions and then a short status meeting to
2 determine what next we do.
3 MS. McMURREY: Thank you very much.
1 --- Luncheon recess taken at 1:10 p.m.
2 --- On resuming at 2.38 p.m.
3 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Waiting for so many
4 minutes. I thought I would conclude what I was doing.
5 MR. MORAN: Your Honour, it's not 2.30 until
6 the judges get here.
7 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Well, even if it is
8 time, they say the time arrives when the chief
10 MR. MORAN: That's correct, Your Honour.
11 Your watch is always the right one.
12 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: I think we hear this
13 afternoon largely the stance from Mrs. McMurrey who has
14 so many things for us to consider. And we think it is
15 appropriate at this stage for us to check and know how
16 we move forward from now.
17 Essentially, I think we've concluded up to
18 the third accused's case, and we think we should know
19 what the fourth accused is coming up with. Now, I
20 think you have a few motions you are trying to present
21 before the Trial Chamber, apart from your witness
22 list. So let's see which of them you start with.
23 MS. McMURREY: You mean it's my choice, Your
25 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Since we are here this
1 afternoon, but try to make it brief.
2 MS. McMURREY: I will try my best to make it
3 brief. Because I think that, basically, the most
4 important ones are the designation of expert witness
5 and leave of Court to call the experts that I filed.
6 That's Dr. Van Leeuwen and Dr. Verde and Dr. Lagazzi
7 and then Dr. Haeseker and Lammers.
8 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: I thought -- lack of
9 mental capacity is not one of your defences?
10 MS. McMURREY: No, Your Honour, diminished
11 mental capacity.
12 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Yes, this your defence.
13 MS. McMURREY: Yes, Your Honour.
14 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: But not lack of mental
16 MS. McMURREY: Well, I don't know what the
17 Court is saying, because the Rule 67 describes
18 diminished mental capacity as a defence under the laws
19 of the ICTY, and under the laws of the Tribunal. It
20 does not say that it's mitigation of punishment. It
21 describes it under special defences. That's why we
22 have asserted the special defence of diminished mental
24 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: I have not referred to
25 diminished capacity. I said lack of mental capacity is
1 not one of your defences.
2 MS. McMURREY: That's correct, Your Honour.
3 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Yes. And that is what
4 you've put on Dr. Van Leeuwen and Dr. -- all of them
6 MS. McMURREY: Your Honour, if I stated it in
7 my motion, then I am incorrect. I've been writing
8 these late at night and I will be the first one to say
9 that if I stated lack of mental capacity, that is not
10 at all what I mean for these expert witnesses to
11 testify about. And in their reports, which are
12 included from 1996, they discuss diminished mental
13 capacity in these reports. And that's what I am
14 relying on, are their evaluations from before and then
15 also an update on their evaluations today. And so I am
16 calling those, Lagazzi and Van Leeuwen have all written
17 reports from 1996 --
18 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Have you read what you
19 wrote here?
20 MS. McMURREY: Your Honour --
21 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Read what you wrote.
22 MS. McMURREY: I would appreciate it if the
23 Court would just direct me to exactly what you are
24 referring to, because I have so many motions here in
25 front of me, and I am not quite sure --
1 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: You have written -- let
2 me read it out. Pursuant to an order of this Court,
3 examine Mr. Landzo in 1996 regarding his compatibility
4 with confinement and mental capacity to commit the
5 alleged crimes. The defendant issues related to lack
6 of mental responsibility. This is what you are saying,
7 number one.
8 MS. McMURREY: Your Honour, the Court did
9 order that in '96. But if you look under 3D, under the
10 one under Lagazzi, the Court also asked: "Was the
11 accused lacking mental responsibility or was he in a
12 state of diminished mental responsibility?" And those
13 were the questions that the Court asked in 1996 and
14 these are the reports that I am relying upon.
15 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Which are you relying
16 upon now?
17 MS. McMURREY: Diminished mental
18 responsibility, which was asked by the Court in 1996.
19 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: No, the alternatives.
20 The Court did not ask for two separate -- it's either
21 or. And if you have read it carefully, you would have
22 seen that they were saying either you are relying on
23 lack of mental capacity or diminished capacity.
24 MS. McMURREY: The Court was asking whether
25 he suffered from --
1 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: What are you asking?
2 Not the Court. You are the one defending your client.
3 MS. McMURREY: Your Honour, I am not asking
4 the Court to evaluate that at all. I am just relying
5 on a report that was prepared at the Court's request
6 before. So I am asking that these doctors, these
7 experts, have already considered that issue, and made
8 reports for the Court based on that request years ago.
9 And I am also going to rely on their reports from that
10 time and ask them to come and testify before the Court
11 regarding the diminished mental responsibility of
12 Mr. Landzo.
13 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Earlier On I asked you
14 whether you still relied, not today, sometime, I asked
15 you whether you still relied on lack of mental
16 capacity. You said you had dropped that.
17 MS. McMURREY: Yes, Your Honour.
18 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: And now rely on
19 diminished mental responsibility. So that is the basis
20 of which you can invite these witnesses.
21 Now, number one, you did talk about that, you
22 talk about lack of mental responsibility. This is what
23 you stated.
24 MS. McMURREY: Your Honour --
25 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Which, that is still a
2 MS. McMURREY: Yes, Your Honour.
3 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Could not be, since you
4 have given that up.
5 MS. McMURREY: Your Honour, I am only relying
6 on diminished mental responsibility, which under the
7 statute of Rule 67, the rule provides for a special
8 defence of that. I am relying on diminished. Every
9 document that I have filed has said that I am not
10 requesting a defence or asserting a defence of lack of
11 mental capacity. Only diminished mental
12 responsibility, which is listed as a special defence
13 under Rule 67.
14 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: However, this document
15 did not say so.
16 MS. McMURREY: Well, I apologise if I
17 misquoted or misstated something in my document. What
18 I am asking for is to call these expert witnesses to
19 testify, based on their evaluations about the mental
20 capacity of Mr. Landzo, as far as the Defence of
21 diminished mental responsibility is concerned.
22 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Let's go to them one by
23 one and see.
24 MS. McMURREY: I'm sorry, I didn't hear you.
25 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Let's go three each of
1 the witnesses to see exactly why they are being
3 MS. McMURREY: Are you going by my motions
4 for leave of Court to designate --
5 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: No, we'll see those in
6 respect of which you require leave and those in which
7 you do not require leave. There are two categories of
9 MS. McMURREY: I just would like to know
10 which motion you are looking at, Your Honour, so that I
11 can follow along, and we could be on the same page.
12 That's all.
13 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Well, I have your list
14 of witnesses.
15 MS. McMURREY: So that would be the response
16 to the scheduling order?
17 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Yes.
18 MS. McMURREY: Okay. Thank you very much.
19 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: I think you have so much
20 confusion in the way you make your applications. Not
21 all applications require to be argued. There are some
22 applications which merely enable you to submit what is
23 required of you and they don't have to be argued. If
24 you complied with the order, I think that should be
1 MS. McMURREY: Yes, Your Honour, I wouldn't
2 like to argue my response to your scheduling order. I
3 was just trying to comply with the request of the
5 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: That's all you do for
7 MS. McMURREY: Yes, Your Honour.
8 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Now, you have Dr. Verde
9 who is still on the same as Dr. Van Leeuwen.
10 MS. McMURREY: No, Your Honour, he is not the
11 same thing.
12 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: He's clinical
13 psychologist, isn't he?
14 MS. McMURREY: There was -- on the original
15 list there was a Dr. Roorda de Man who had performed
16 this basic testing, which is a clinical psychologist
17 performs this testing and a psychiatrist reads it and
18 applies it to their opinion. We only have one clinical
19 psychologist on our list who has completed a battery of
20 psychological tests on Mr. Landzo, and he just recently
21 completed those on June 20th. And so he's the only
22 clinical psychologist we are calling. All the other
23 psychiatrists used his basic testing in order to help
24 form their opinion and write their reports.
25 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: These on your demand for
1 diminished responsibility?
2 MS. McMURREY: Yes, Your Honour.
3 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Yes, you have
4 Dr. Haeseker, the plastic surgeon, is it.
5 MS. McMURREY: Yes, Your Honour, and
6 Dr. Haeseker and Dr. Lammers I have to defer to
7 Ms. Boler, because she is the one who is orchestrating
8 their appearance and evidence here in the Court. So if
9 you'd like, I will defer to Ms. Boler to respond about
10 those two doctors.
11 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Haeseker is coming to
12 state his physical disability, is it?
13 MS. BOLER: That's correct, Your Honour,
14 Dr. Haeseker has been to the UN detention centre and
15 examined Mr. Landzo's hand, and will testify as to that
16 limited physical -- because limited physical capacity
17 is a special defence, we've called Dr. Haeseker to
18 testify to the hand injury. He is a Dutch doctor and
19 is at a close by hospital. So, hopefully, we saved the
20 Tribunal some time and money by hiring a local
21 authority to give that evidence.
22 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Dr. Lammers.
23 MS. BOLER: Dr. Lammers is a pulmonary
24 specialist, a lung doctor. There has been testimony as
25 to Mr. Landzo's chronic bronchitis and asthma, and he
1 also came to the UN detention centre twice, actually,
2 June 2nd and June 6th, if I recall the specific days
3 correctly, and made his examinations there and has
4 submitted a brief report.
5 JUDGE JAN: Just for my information, are you
6 disputing that he was a guard in the Celebici camp?
7 MS. BOLER: No, Your Honour.
8 JUDGE JAN: Are you disputing that he had a
9 weapon with him while he was acting as a guard?
10 MS. McMURREY: Your Honour, I am probably
11 more equipped to answer these questions, if you don't
12 mind. No, we are not disputing that he was a guard and
13 we are not disputing that he had a weapon.
14 JUDGE JAN: Are you disputing that he had no
15 training in handling a weapon?
16 MS. McMURREY: I really haven't -- he does
17 have some training, I think, and everybody in the
18 secondary school in Bosnia had some kind of limited
19 kind of training, but he certainly was never formally
20 trained in the military.
21 JUDGE JAN: He was given some preliminary
22 training in handling a weapon?
23 MS. McMURREY: I really -- I am not sure of
24 that. I wish I knew, Your Honour. I don't have an
25 answer to that question.
1 JUDGE JAN: The witness that just appeared
2 before us, he said he did have a weapon.
3 MS. McMURREY: Yes, did he have a weapon. I
4 think maybe there is even some photographs of him with
5 a weapon.
6 JUDGE JAN: So how would evidence in relation
7 to his impaired hand help you?
8 MS. McMURREY: It has to do with the
9 allegations of beating for long periods of time.
10 That's what the allegations -- that this directly
11 applies to. Not whether --
12 JUDGE JAN: I was just wondering, maybe you
13 got a case and you can prove. I was just wondering.
14 MS. McMURREY: It has nothing to do with his
15 ability to use a weapon.
16 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Now, you -- I don't see
17 the need for Dr. Lagazzi.
18 MS. McMURREY: Your Honour --
19 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: If your reason is for
20 his competence to stand trial.
21 MS. McMURREY: No, Your Honour, that's not
22 the reason.
23 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: That's what you've
25 MS. McMURREY: No, I said that his --
1 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: What is this no?
2 MS. McMURREY: I'm sorry, I didn't mean to
3 indicate that. I meant that he had already evaluated
4 Mr. Landzo on those issues. So we are just relying on
5 the previous reports that he made regarding his mental
6 state at that time to include that in our testimony
7 today. Not that we are --
8 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: You think the two
9 earlier doctors are not satisfactory for the purpose?
10 MS. McMURREY: These people had already --
11 what I am basing this on, basically, is British law
12 that I cited in my case earlier, that the defence
13 cannot be raised without appropriate scientific
14 evidence to support it. Now, whatever appropriate is
15 under British law, could be anywhere from one to ten
16 expert witnesses. So I use two expert witnesses that
17 had already previously examined Mr. Landzo and one
18 expert witness who was brought in totally new for this
19 Defence --
20 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: What is Van Leeuwen
21 coming to say?
22 MS. McMURREY: He is coming to testify about
23 his opinions that he formed in 1996 about his
24 diminished mental responsibility, and also he is coming
25 now that I have given him a sort of definition of what
1 it is we are going on to --
2 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Did he and Dr. Lagazzi
3 examined him at the same time?
4 MS. McMURREY: No, not at the same time.
5 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: The same time. We have
6 the reports here.
7 MS. McMURREY: Your Honour, they each
8 individually examined Mr. Landzo.
9 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Yes. Yes, they came in
10 the same report.
11 MS. McMURREY: They each gave individual
13 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Yes, they were all
14 consulted together. The Prosecution was part of those
15 who brought them in, and they gave reports about his
17 MS. McMURREY: And they both said that he had
18 diminished mental responsibility in the report.
19 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: I don't know about
21 JUDGE JAN: With reference to his competence
22 to stand trial.
23 MS. McMURREY: No, Your Honour --
24 JUDGE JAN: In 1996.
25 MS. McMURREY: There's also another report
1 dealing with his mental responsibility, and in those
2 reports, dealing with his mental responsibility,
3 Dr. Van Leeuwen and Dr. Lagazzi both stated that he had
4 diminished --
5 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: That is not what you
6 stated here. What you stated here is his competence to
7 stand trial.
8 MS. McMURREY: I may have misstated
9 everything to the Court, and I will do my best --
10 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: I think you are merely
11 multiplying with expert witnesses. There is no reason
12 for that.
13 JUDGE JAN: Actually, we are more interested
14 in his mental state in 1992.
15 MS. McMURREY: Your Honour, this reflects --
16 these three witnesses are coming to testify about
17 Mr. Landzo's mental state at the time of the
18 indictment, from April through --
19 JUDGE JAN: Not from the time of indictment,
20 the commission of the offence.
21 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: That is the relevant
23 MS. McMURREY: That's exactly what I will ask
24 them to cover and I will not ask them to cover anything
25 other than that. They are here to testify about their
1 opinion, about Mr. Landzo's mental capacity in 1992.
2 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Let's hear Ms. McHenry.
3 I think you've been in it all along, at every stage.
4 MS. McHENRY: Yes, Your Honour. And let me
5 first say the Prosecution certainly does not agree that
6 the reports that Ms. McMurrey was referring to did find
7 diminished mental capacity. But the Prosecution would
8 like to go back further and talk about this Chamber's
9 order in January, 1997, requiring sufficient notice of
10 expert witnesses, including what they are going to
11 say. The Defence has known that these are going to be
12 their Defences for a significant length of time. At
13 some point, several months ago, the Prosecution filed a
14 motion stating that we needed some expert reports,
15 because we would be -- we weren't even sure exactly
16 what they were saying their defences were, and, two, to
17 be able to prepare both for cross-examination any
18 additional investigation, and to potentially prepare
19 for rebuttal, we needed expert reports.
20 Your Honours then made an order which
21 required that the defence experts file reports, and you
22 indicated that you would not decide on their motion for
23 leave until you've had a chance to evaluate their
24 reports. And at that time, including in the beginning
25 of June, when this issue came up again, Ms. McMurrey
1 said we would have the reports in about two weeks.
2 The Prosecution is now in the position of
3 potentially trying to prepare for cross-examination for
4 numerous doctors with no expert reports. And even in
5 this status hearing we are all trying to figure out,
6 well, exactly what is the defence, what are the doctors
7 going to testify to, and this is the very reason that
8 the Prosecution brought this up several months ago, so
9 that we would not be in this exact position right
10 before the defence case starts, saying we are not
12 Now, with respect to the general defence of
13 diminished responsibility, the Prosecution has filed
14 its submission about that. In fact, it's not a
15 complete defence and it's really relevant to
16 sentencing. But I will not argue that now. That's up
17 to Your Honours.
18 But, what we do want to argue is we are not
19 in a position and, respectfully, the Chamber is put in
20 the difficult position of deciding whether or not these
21 expert witnesses can or cannot provide information
22 that's relevant and helpful to the Tribunal without
23 reports, and certainly the Prosecution is not in a
24 position to adequately cross-examine.
25 For instance, I mean -- let's talk about the
1 first witness on the defence list, Dr. Van Leeuwen. It
2 is the case that we have a prior report for him, and so
3 some months ago, when Ms. McMurrey said she would call
4 him, we had not indicated, necessarily, that we would
5 object now. We have now been informed by Dr. Van
6 Leeuwen, that at Ms. McMurrey's request he has
7 re-examined Mr. Landzo, he has changed his opinion, he
8 declined to discuss that opinion with the Prosecution,
9 and said that we would find out about when he testified
10 on Monday.
11 Now, none of us here are psychiatrists, and
12 we, in fact, had made special arrangements to have a
13 psychiatrist come here to consult with us in
14 preparation for the defence case and that person has
15 been here this week. And because Mrs. McMurrey had
16 assured us that we would have the expert reports. So
17 now he's been here and gone and we have no report from
18 Dr. Van Leeuwen, just an indication that he's changed
19 his opinion, and we'll find out about it when he
20 testifies on Monday.
21 We have Dr. Lagazzi, who we have --
22 MS. McMURREY: Your Honour, could we take one
23 at a time, because this is going to be -- I am not
24 making notes and I would just like to be able to
25 respond to each allegation as they -- as it comes up.
1 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: It's the same complaint
2 about -- you are not furnishing the Prosecution with
3 the reports of the specialists who you are inviting.
4 MS. McMURREY: That is absolutely not true,
5 though, Your Honour.
6 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: In fact, I did not
7 expect Dr. Van Leeuwen to send in even another report
8 on the same person. I think that's a little
9 ridiculous, even for him. Except he indicated that the
10 circumstances have changed and there is a reason why he
11 should write another report on the same person standing
12 trial before the same Trial Chamber. I think that's a
13 little awkward. And now he thought perhaps his report
14 is conclusive, is it?
15 JUDGE JAN: And maybe, after he is
16 re-examined, then maybe a third report.
17 MS. McMURREY: But, Your Honour, I've never
18 heard that he's changed his opinion. He has never told
19 me that.
20 JUDGE JAN: You have no reason to disbelieve
21 Ms. McHenry.
22 MS. McMURREY: But he's never told me that,
23 and he --
24 JUDGE JAN: But if he changes his opinion,
25 there is a possibility that he may have a third opinion
1 again changing his opinion.
2 MS. McMURREY: If he changes his opinion,
3 then of course I will submit a report. As far as this
4 goes, I am relying on the original reports that Dr. Van
5 Leeuwen submitted to the Court at the Court's request
6 in 1996. And as far as I know, he has not changed his
7 opinion --
8 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Did he examine him
10 MS. McMURREY: He met with him for one hour
11 last Saturday -- no, last Sunday.
12 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Why did he have to?
13 Because he's examined him before.
14 MS. McMURREY: But, Your Honour --
15 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: In respect of the same
17 MS. McMURREY: Yes. But I have never -- what
18 I did, when I submitted my submissions on what I
19 thought the definition might be, I also sent it to
20 these psychiatrists, because nobody knows what the
21 definition is that we have to form an opinion based
22 upon right now, so --
23 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: You are deceiving
24 yourself that no one knows what diminished
25 responsibility is.
1 MS. McMURREY: I don't.
2 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: It has not been a
3 technical definition. I think there has been a legal
4 definition of the expression. There's been -- so if it
5 is a factual basis that you rely upon, that is all the
6 Court -- the Trial Chamber expects to you present
7 before it. For it to determine whether it comes within
8 the parameters of your argument. You don't have to go
9 and change what has been examined before and accepted
10 by all the three psychiatrists, including the one from
12 MS. McMURREY: Well, since I was going by the
13 clue that Your Honour gave me about the homicide act of
14 1957, and so therefore I drafted a definition for these
15 psychiatrists, and that's -- I mean, if he has a change
16 of mind about his report, I guess it would have to do
17 with relation to that definition, but I don't think it
18 would have anything to do with his opinion of
19 Mr. Landzo. You know, the Prosecution has had notice
20 of my intent to call this doctor for a year and a half,
21 they have had his reports, and I can't see any reason
22 in the world why he should not be allowed to come
23 testify before this Tribunal.
24 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: We have his reports.
25 MS. McMURREY: Yes, Your Honour, but that's a
1 report without a definition. I really feel like it's
2 necessary for him to --
3 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Did you see the letter
4 inviting him to examine him?
5 MS. McMURREY: Your Honour, I enclosed it in
6 my request. I enclosed --
7 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: The original one?
8 MS. McMURREY: The one that I put on my
9 motion was the one requesting him to come, and his two
10 -- three reports that he submitted, as requested by
11 the Court --
12 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: If you look at it
13 carefully, in his last sentence the word was
14 "consult". The word from the old opinion was
15 "consult". And changed.
16 MS. McMURREY: I don't understand what you
17 are saying right now, but --
18 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Until you tender it,
19 then you see the difference between the new one and the
20 old one.
21 MS. McMURREY: There's three reports by
22 Dr. Van Leeuwen, and I was relying on the last report
23 that he submitted to the Trial Chamber. And based upon
24 his opinions at that time, I am asking him to come
25 testify --
1 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: But have you now given a
2 report to the Prosecution?
3 MS. McMURREY: She's had the same reports
4 I've had since 1996 --
5 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: But you are relying on a
6 new one.
7 MS. McMURREY: No, Your Honour, I haven't
8 asked for a new one. I haven't had any indication --
9 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Why did he have to
10 examine him again?
11 MS. McMURREY: Just because I thought that it
12 was necessary, after two years, that he go and talk to
13 him. He spent one hour with him. And, Your Honour,
14 the Prosecution's expert witness spent July 6th and
15 July 7th with Mr. Landzo. So they can't say that they
16 are surprised by this.
17 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: He was -- the
18 examination at that time was made at the instance of
19 both the Prosecution and the Defence, jointly, so it
20 was not a reference made by the Prosecution alone, at
21 the first time he was examined. So you would not
22 regard that examination as that of the Prosecution,
23 because it was a joint exercise.
24 MS. McMURREY: They have a Dr. Landy Sparr
25 who was their independent psychiatrist who has recently
1 examined Mr. Landzo to form his own opinion, not
2 relying on Lagazzi or Verde or Van Leeuwen. This is an
3 independent psychiatrist chosen by the Prosecution --
4 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: We have no such evidence
5 before this Trial Chamber.
6 MS. McHENRY: If I may just assist. With
7 respect to Dr. Van Leeuwen -- Van Leeuwen. Thank you.
8 It is exactly correct that there was a request by
9 everyone after the Defence initially made this that he
10 be examined, and if Dr. Van Leeuwen testifies
11 consistent with that, well then we would not be
12 objecting. But when we found out that the Defence had
13 asked that he be examined again, which, like Your
14 Honour, we thought there must be something else, and
15 given that the defence has changed from lack -- or
16 diminished, Mr. Cowles called and talked to him, and if
17 Your Honours have any specific questions, Mr. Cowles
18 said he would be happy to answer them. He said he had
19 changed his opinion and he declined to discuss it and
20 said we would hear about it Monday.
21 With respect to Dr. Sparr, it is the case
22 that so that we would be prepared to cross-examine the
23 defence experts, we did request an examination by our
24 own expert, and we filed a motion stating that if
25 necessary, we might call him in rebuttal. But we are
1 not necessarily planning on calling him, because it's
2 the defence burden here, and so we just want to be
3 prepared to meet the defence. And, if necessary, we
4 wanted to be able to proceed efficiently in rebuttal.
5 But we have not made the decision we are going to call
6 Dr. Sparr, and one of the main reasons he was here is
7 to help us prepare for the cross-examination of the
8 defence experts. But he has not had an opportunity to
9 review the current opinions. He has not had an
10 opportunity to review Dr. Lagazzi's report because
11 that's still in Italian. Dr. Gripon, we still don't
12 have a report, and, apparently, Dr. Van Leeuwen is
13 going to change his opinion.
14 So we really just don't know how we can be
15 expected to prepare in these circumstances.
16 JUDGE JAN: She is not relying upon --
17 (Microphone, please, Your Honour).
18 MS. McHENRY: If it's the case that Dr. Van
19 Leeuwen testifies consistent with his report and
20 indicates that his subsequent examination did not
21 change any of his opinion, and therefore, that he --
22 his opinion is exactly what is represented in the '96
23 report. Then we would not be objecting. I can only
24 tell Your Honour what Mr. -- what the doctor told Mr.
25 Cowles, and -- but if, in fact, he testifies,
1 consistent with the '96 report, we will not have any
2 objection to that. But I'm just giving Your Honours
3 fair warning that this is what he told Mr. Cowles. And
4 if it is the case, of course, we just cannot be
6 MS. McHENRY: Your Honours, this is the first
7 I heard of anything from Dr. Van Leeuwen and Mr. Cowles
8 conversation. And I was operating on the assumption
9 that his testimony would be consistent with his prior
10 reports. And so that's the submissions that I am
11 putting to this Court, that I am relying on his
12 consistency in his reports, and I can't imagine calling
13 an expert that would say I was wrong before in my prior
15 So this is the first I've heard of this
16 conversation with Dr. Van Leeuwen. I am totally caught
17 by surprise. But, speaking of being caught by
18 surprise, because the Prosecution's new expert has had
19 their own, we agreed that he should meet with
20 Mr. Landzo and evaluate him independently. I don't
21 believe that they can claim surprise or being
22 unprepared for anything that we have to submit with
23 three psychiatrists' testimony.
24 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: I don't like reports
25 which have been sent and accepted -- for a doctor who
1 has already examined a person with respect to the same
2 issue, who told you that he made the examinations and
3 that he had no further reports to issue, and how he
4 could, after the Trial Chamber had referred a matter to
5 him, it actually was referred to him by the Trial
6 Chamber, not by any of the parties, and suppose that
7 was sufficient for the reports on that accused person.
8 MS. McMURREY: Your Honour, I just wanted to
9 make the Court aware, Dr. Loga was a psychiatrist
10 chosen by the defence, Dr. Van Leeuwen was a
11 psychiatrist chosen by the Trial Chamber, and
12 Dr. Lagazzi was a psychiatrist chosen by the
14 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: All the three were
15 chosen by the Trial Chamber.
16 MS. McMURREY: But each one submitted their
17 suggestions and it was accepted.
18 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Yes, they all examined
19 them separately, and they submitted their reports,
20 which was not the Prosecution or the Defence alone
21 which nominated the doctors. They were accepted and it
22 went through the Registry.
23 MS. McMURREY: That's why I thought the --
24 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: But this time you went
25 alone to him for your own report.
1 MS. McMURREY: No, I didn't ask him for a
2 report. I am relying on his prior reports, Your
3 Honour. I am relying on the reports --
4 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Here is a doctor who has
5 been nominated by the Trial Chamber. If we needed him,
6 he would have been called again.
7 MS. McMURREY: Well --
8 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: That is the only normal
9 procedure I am familiar with. No one doesn't just come
10 again and then now he appears to be a witness for the
11 Defence, but actually, he was the Trial Chamber's
13 MS. McMURREY: Your Honour, in the
14 jurisdiction that I come from, any independent
15 psychiatrist can be called by either side. The
16 Prosecution can call him --
17 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: After there has been a
18 joint reference.
19 MS. McMURREY: Yes. And the Defence can call
20 him --
21 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: You mean after there has
22 been a joint reference to him?
23 MS. McMURREY: Yes.
24 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Well, I wish I were in
25 that jurisdiction. I don't think, after two people
1 have agreed to call a person, one alone cannot go
2 independently calling that person. It's not done.
3 MS. McMURREY: Your Honour, I had asked the
4 opinion of the Registry --
5 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Anyway, here is your
6 witness, but we've heard from him, he's made his joint
7 report before, so I don't know what he is coming to
8 say, more than what you have had him report upon that
9 accused person.
10 MS. McMURREY: Because the burden of the
11 proof has now changed to the Defence at this point, and
12 I feel, and the Defence of Esad Landzo feels, that it's
13 very necessary to call him to ask him specific
14 questions regarding diminished mental responsibility.
15 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Thank you very much.
16 Now, it appears you are not -- you have no copy to give
17 to the Prosecution, so they can rely on whatever report
18 they have had from him?
19 MS. McMURREY: That's exactly --
20 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: And that would be
22 MS. McMURREY: That's exactly what I am
23 relying upon.
24 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Yes. So, Ms. McHenry,
25 you have a copy of this report and that is a report
1 relied upon, and that is what you will rely for your
2 cross-examination of him.
3 MS. McHENRY: And if that is his testimony,
4 Your Honour, we have no objection, and we thank you.
5 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Surely, there is
6 nothing, nothing else outside that.
7 Well, most of the others are -- they are fact
9 Now, what is Dr. Gripon is coming to say?
10 MS. McMURREY: Your Honour, I want to just
11 lay a little foundation here, in that because we had to
12 get Dr. Verde at the last minute to conduct these
13 clinical psychological tests, we were informed in May
14 that the testing of Roorda De Man was possibly
15 inaccurate. Not inaccurate for anything that she stood
16 for, but inaccurate for other reasons. So we had a new
17 battery of tests done.
18 Dr. Gripon, I spoke to him last night.
19 I have relayed to Ms. McHenry his report will be here
20 today by fax. He just received Dr. Verde's testing
21 results and he was just waiting to get the results of
22 Dr. Verde to complete his report, and I will have that
23 just as soon as possible.
24 That's why I put him much later, because it
25 gives the Prosecution a much better chance to review
1 his report. They will have two weeks in order to
2 prepare for that, and I will have that filed no later
3 than -- what is today? Thursday. Tomorrow by noon, I
4 hope, or maybe today by six o'clock, if I can get to
5 the hotel and check the fax machine.
6 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: And he's also testifying
7 on the mental state?
8 MS. McMURREY: Yes, Your Honour. He did not
9 conduct the same tests in 1996, and he has been to
10 Konjic. He has interviewed family, teachers, friends,
11 and conducted an evaluation of Mr. Landzo here at the
12 detention centre. So the Defence is very much relying
13 on his opinions as far as his diminished mental
14 responsibility in 1992. He's done a much more in-depth
16 And I can assure the Court that I am not
17 trying to hide anything. In fact, I have been
18 communicating with Ms. McHenry every day on my attempts
19 to -- I learned a very serious lesson from all of
20 this. It's my fault, because when I requested these
21 reports from these Italian doctors, I hate to say that
22 I am so dense, but I expected them to come in English.
23 And they came in Italian. And it's just very -- it's
24 taken me a long time to get these interpreted.
25 I know. I should have foreseen that, but I
1 did not foresee it, and I apologise to the Court, and
2 I apologise to Ms. McHenry. And I am doing the best I
3 can. As it comes in, I am giving her the copies of
5 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Despite all the other
6 medical witnesses, I suppose might be one too many, but
7 it's all right, you can still have him if you so
9 MS. McMURREY: Thank you.
10 JUDGE ODIO BENITO: I am curious about the
11 bronchitis problem. What is the relevance here of this
12 with your case?
13 MS. McMURREY: The asthma bronchitis that
14 Mr. Landzo suffers, the witness will show that if he
15 exerts too much energy, he can't breathe. And that is
16 part of the diminished physical capacity assertion that
17 was made in 1996 by Mr. Brackovic, which still exists
18 in our Defence, and that still goes to his ability to
19 beat somebody for a long period of time, or kick
20 someone, or do this judo thing that people have
21 testified, the Prosecution witnesses have testified.
22 So it goes to his ability to perform some of the
23 allegations in the indictment.
24 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: It's your Defence, isn't
1 MS. McMURREY: Yes, Your Honour.
2 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: What you consider your
3 Defence. It depends on whether it's finally accepted
4 and used for the purpose for which --
5 JUDGE JAN: Lack of free will.
6 MS. McMURREY: Lack of free will is the main
7 thing on diminished mental capacity, Your Honour,
8 that's absolutely true.
9 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Yes, Mrs. McHenry.
10 MS. McHENRY: Your Honour, of course we will
11 defer to the Court as to any decision you make about
12 the physical defence, and what the defence can call,
13 but today for the first time we saw the brief report
14 from the pulmonary doctor. And much of it I can't
15 read, because I am not a doctor and I don't understand
16 all the measurements, but with respect to what we would
17 believe would be the relevant issue, the doctor says,
18 "I can't say whether or not he could do certain
19 activities or he couldn't at certain moments." And
20 because of that we would say his testimony is
22 JUDGE JAN: It's for you to cross-examine
24 MS. McHENRY: If I were a doctor, I would
25 feel better about that.
1 MS. BOLER: Your Honour, if I might just
2 respond. That came as an E-Mail to me and this is a
3 Dutch doctor who wrote it in English. I think the
4 report -- I am going to request that the Registry
5 provide an interpreter so that he can give his
6 testimony in Dutch, and then it will be interpreted.
7 And I think some of the things may be more clearer --
8 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: He wrote it in English.
9 MS. BOLER: He wrote the report to me in
10 English, and, frankly, it's a little bit awkward in
11 places. I am just saying that when he makes his --
12 when he testifies, he will testify in Dutch, and I will
13 have an interpreter here so that --
14 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: That's his choice. If
15 he doesn't feel comfortable in English, he can testify
16 in Dutch.
17 JUDGE JAN: He can write a report in English.
18 MS. BOLER: I don't know that he really
19 considered it a report when he wrote it to me. It came
20 over my E-Mail. But, then, as I told the Court, he
21 went on holiday for three weeks right about that time.
22 So I just went ahead and gave it to the Prosecution as
23 I --
24 JUDGE JAN: Maybe his English is better than
1 MS. BOLER: Well, I don't know, Your Honour.
2 His English is fine, and I commend him for speaking to
3 me in English, because it certainly made our
4 communications -- I didn't have to have an interpreter,
5 but I believe his choice will be to testify in Dutch.
6 JUDGE JAN: We'll let him speak whatever
7 language he wants.
8 MS. BOLER: That's correct, Your Honour.
9 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: I suppose these are all
10 the technical areas, I think, that required some
12 MS. McMURREY: Your Honour, just so I am
13 nailed down, and you know that my last witness is
14 Dr. Gripon, and I have assured the Court that I will be
15 finished before August 1st, I was asking, that since he
16 comes from the United States, if I could get, just like
17 you scheduled Dr. Bellas's testimony for some certain
18 time in the future, I am asking that Dr. Gripon's
19 testimony be scheduled for July 30th. He is my last
20 witness. That will assure the Court, and possibly
21 myself, that we will be completed by then.
22 JUDGE JAN: It will save some expense also.
23 MS. McMURREY: So I would like a date certain
24 for him to appear.
25 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Yes, Ms. McHenry, I
1 think this suits us.
2 MS. McHENRY: We have no objection to that.
3 JUDGE JAN: We'll let you got today before
4 six o'clock, so that you can at least receive your fax.
5 MS. McMURREY: My faxes all come in at one
6 and two in the morning, unfortunately.
7 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: You even have
8 paediatricians, a paediatrician as a witness.
9 MS. McMURREY: As a fact witness, not as an
11 Your Honour, I assume that there's about five
12 witnesses on my list that will not be coming to
13 testify. I just gave myself latitude there. There may
14 be four, five or even six witnesses who may not appear
15 that are on this list.
16 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: I thought that for a
17 paediatrician to testify on behalf of an adult --
18 that's tracing it back to when he was a baby, is it?
19 MS. McMURREY: I wanted to bring to the
20 Court's attention, Ms. Boler had said I had scheduled
21 Dr. Gripon for July 29th, if that would make the Court
22 feel any better.
23 MS. BOLER: In the motion it says the 29th.
24 JUDGE JAN: That's fine.
25 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: That's all right.
1 MS. McMURREY: Thank you.
2 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: It might be wise, if you
3 find that some of them are not so relevant, to avoid
4 them, because it might cloud what you are really coming
5 out to say. It might create problems for you.
6 MS. McMURREY: I'm afraid that my witness
7 list will be diminished not because of my deciding that
8 they are not relevant, but for other reasons, and
9 that's why I gave myself a little latitude. I believe
10 it will be difficult to get a few of them.
11 JUDGE JAN: As you think fit.
12 MS. McMURREY: I will, Your Honours.
13 JUDGE JAN: Because you are in a better
15 MS. McMURREY: I should be. You are right.
16 I will.
17 JUDGE JAN: There are no restraints on you.
18 There are no restraints on you.
19 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: You are free. As long
20 as you do not jeopardise your client, you are free.
21 MS. McMURREY: Well, thank you. I am doing
22 the best to try to give the Court an accurate
23 representation of what I think our Defence case is
24 going to be.
25 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Now, I suppose this is
1 your main motion. The other aspects, I don't know
2 which other motion you want to take.
3 MS. McMURREY: Your Honour, I don't have any
4 other things before the Court other than, you know,
5 approval to call those expert witnesses. I will have
6 Dr. Gripon's report filed tomorrow. Other than that,
7 all I am asking is that everything that you've just
8 granted me. So I am very satisfied. Thank you.
9 JUDGE JAN: You are not likely to work under
10 any constraints.
11 MS. McMURREY: I see, after a year and a
12 half, Judge Jan knows me.
13 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: I suppose you will be
14 able to give the Prosecution the report so that they
15 can grant you leave to call Dr. Lammers and
16 Dr. Haeseker. I think --
17 MS. BOLER: Your Honour, did I understand you
18 -- thanks. The night before last -- of course I was
19 sick and not in Court yesterday, so I don't have it
20 before me, but the night before last I did file that
21 with the reports. And, granted, they are short
22 reports, but I believe the testimony will be short as
23 well. So I didn't know if you were telling me that I
24 needed to get a second report or will this one
1 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: If you have a copy of
2 the report, just make a copy of it and give it to them,
3 because that's what you rely upon.
4 MS. McHENRY: We received one page of a
5 Lammers report. The other report is in Dutch.
6 MS. BOLER: The one page on the hand doctor
7 is in Dutch, and I am in the process of having somebody
8 in our Defence area get that translated.
9 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: All you need is a
10 translation of that.
11 MS. BOLER: Yes, Your Honour. I don't think
12 that will take much longer at all. It's just one
13 page. And part of the page is a picture of a hand, so
14 more like three quarters.
15 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Now, there is a motion
16 I saw on my table this morning about all the Defence
17 Counsel suggesting that we should travel to Konjic
18 community and the Celebici premises. Did the
19 Prosecution receive that too?
20 MS. McHENRY: We have received it, Your
21 Honour, and our response is, although we do not think
22 it's necessary, or we would have filed it ourselves, we
23 defer to the Court as to whether or not --
24 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: I thought we have used
25 the model.
1 JUDGE JAN: We have the dimensions of the
2 rooms. We even know that one part of it falls on M17
3 and the main gate is 300 metres away. So why do you
4 want us to go there?
5 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: I think it's as if we
6 are already there. Every morning I see this model.
7 MS. McMURREY: There are some --
8 JUDGE JAN: I think the population was 1200,
9 1300 people. This is within the premises of that
10 village --
11 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, Your Honour,
13 JUDGE JAN: We know its location, we know the
14 dimensions of the various rooms or hangars or tunnels,
15 we know the dimensions. So why do you want us to visit
16 that place?
17 MS. McMURREY: Well, I don't believe the
18 Court knows the proximity of the little villages all
20 JUDGE JAN: We got a very, very large map,
21 what do you call it, ordinance map. You got the whole
22 thing before us.
23 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: I think there's one
24 witness who says he has a girlfriend in the
25 neighbouring village. Nobody has mentioned about a
1 neighbouring village. No other witness did.
2 MS. McMURREY: Well, I am not suggesting that
3 the Court can't understand all of this, you know, with
4 the models. The models have been -- there's a few
5 things that are missing on the model that maybe the
6 Court would be able to see if they -- the eye view from
7 building 22 to tunnel 9. There are things that you
8 really can't tell unless you --
9 JUDGE JAN: Got the dimensions here.
10 MS. McMURREY: If the Court is satisfied,
11 then of course -- it was just a suggestion.
12 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Actually, I have not
13 seen -- noticed any difficulty in appreciating the
14 evidence when you gave it. If I have been having that,
15 there would be anxiety to go and discover these things
16 myself, but all along things have been smooth --
17 MS. McMURREY: You are absolutely right, and
18 I will do my best to make sure that you know that
19 Mr. Delalic's house is first going back into Konjic, et
20 cetera, so --
21 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: You are driving into the
22 place, on the right you get to his house.
23 JUDGE JAN: You didn't get the point which I
24 was trying to make on that day. Why pick on Delalic
25 for a statement? Maybe the house is first, but if
1 Delalic had nothing to do, why ask him? That is the
2 explanation I was trying to get, nothing more than
4 MS. McMURREY: I misunderstood. It was my
5 fault, because I thought that -- I certainly can't
6 respond about Delalic's case. I just thought --
7 JUDGE JAN: I was just trying to find out an
8 explanation. Said that we were waved, we stopped, and
9 I really like to make a statement on Celebici, and I
10 just wanted to find out, why pick on him to make that
12 MS. McMURREY: I understand your question,
13 Your Honour, and it really doesn't have to do with
14 logistics, then, but it was just a suggestion to the
15 Court. And if you feel certainly satisfied that you
16 understand the surrounding area --
17 JUDGE JAN: We know that his house is along
18 the river, it is a place which is not accessible to the
19 shelling, to those persons who were doing the
20 shelling. This is a place where a communication centre
21 has been set up. Before that it was being used as a
22 disco. What else do you want us to know about that
24 MS. McMURREY: Well, the disco is still
25 there, Your Honour. There are two separate parts.
1 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: I don't think it is
2 really necessary for us to --
3 MS. McMURREY: If the Court feels they don't
4 need to, we waive the motion.
5 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: We are satisfied with
6 what we've heard, and there is no problem about
7 identifying what everyone was saying, because even if
8 you mention the way the detainees are sitting down,
9 there is no reason to reconstruct that.
10 JUDGE JAN: We have a picture of that.
11 Produce it for us.
12 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: These are not things
13 which -- we can visualise these things. So thank you
14 very much for your effort in bringing clarity into the
15 whole exercise, but I think we can do without this
17 I think this is all we have for now. So
18 thank you very much for your assistance. We'll be back
19 on Monday at 10.00 in this same Courtroom. Thank you.
20 --- Whereupon proceedings adjourned at
21 3.30 p.m., to the reconvened on
22 Monday, the 13th day
23 of July, 1998, at 10.00 a.m.