1 Thursday, July 16th, 1998
2 --- Upon commencing at 10.30 a.m.
3 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Good morning, ladies and
4 gentlemen. May we have the appearances, please.
5 MR. COWLES: Good morning, Your Honours, my
6 name is Jim Cowles, with me will be Mr. George Huber,
7 as the case manager. We represent the Prosecution
8 today. Thank you.
9 MS. RESIDOVIC: Good morning, Your Honours,
10 my name is Edina Residovic, Defence counsel for Mr.
11 Zejnil Delalic, along with my colleague, professor
12 Eugene O'Sullivan from Canada.
13 MR. OLUJIC: Good morning Your Honours, I am
14 Zeljko Olujic, attorney from Croatia, appearing on
15 behalf of Zdravko Mucic together with my co-counsel,
16 Mr. Duric attorney from Croatia.
17 MR. KARABDIC: Your Honours, I am Salih
18 Karabdic appearing on behalf of Hazim Delic along with
19 Thomas Moran, attorney from Houston Texas.
20 MS. McMURREY: I represent Esad Landzo along
21 with my co-counsel Ms. Nancy Boler.
22 (The witness entered court)
23 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Will you kindly swear
24 the witness.
25 THE WITNESS: Asif Jusufovic
1 THE WITNESS: I solemnly declare that I will
2 speak the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the
4 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Will you kindly take
5 your seat, please. Yes. You may proceed, Ms. Boler.
6 Examined by Ms. Boler
7 Q. Good morning, Mr. Jusufovic, would you please
8 state your name for the Court?
9 A. Good morning. My name is Asif Jusufovic.
10 Q. My name is Nancy Boler and along with Cynthia
11 McMurrey I represent Esad Landzo. You and I have met
12 before, haven't we?
13 A. Yes, indeed.
14 Q. We visited in Konjic when I was there in May
15 and then again briefly two or three weeks ago and then
16 again after you arrived at the Bel Air Hotel; isn't
17 that right, here in The Hague?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. When we spoke yesterday morning, your leg was
20 hurting. Is it any better today?
21 A. No better, I am afraid. I couldn't get a
22 doctor to see to it.
23 Q. I understand they've arranged for you to go
24 to the doctor this afternoon. Is that still going to
1 A. Yes, I have been told so.
2 Q. Mr. Jusufovic, you've never testified before,
3 have you?
4 A. No.
5 Q. I understand you're a little bit nervous?
6 A. No, my usual self.
7 Q. All right. Mr. Jusufovic, let me direct your
8 attention back to the Konjic area in the spring of
9 1992. When the war began, were you a member of the
11 A. From the beginning.
12 Q. What were your duties as a member of the TO?
13 A. I was one of the organisers of the resistance
14 in Konjic and the formation of the first command in
16 Q. Now, what did that entail, what types of
17 things did you do in that position?
18 A. We had to organise the friends and people of
19 Konjic --
20 Q. Mr. Jusufovic, if you're having a problem
21 with --
22 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Would you kindly adjust
23 the headphone for him.
24 THE WITNESS: That's fine now, thank you.
25 MS. BOLER:
1 Q. All right. I think you were telling me about
2 what types of things you did in your capacity in the
4 A. We organised ourselves. That is, into
5 smaller groups of people and we got armed and prepared
6 for the resistance because it was clear that there
7 would be an aggression between Bosnia Herzegovina and
8 particularly against Konjic where I lived. As I
9 already said, we armed ourselves, we prepared for a
10 struggle to be ready when the attack of the enemy
12 Q. And at some point did you become a member of
13 the military police?
14 A. Yes. When we reached the Village of
15 Glavaticevo, that was the first time that we were on
16 the frontlines towards the enemy. We established the
17 lines with the -- manning them with local inhabitants
18 and upon return to Konjic some ten days later, we
19 organised the military police. And I transferred to
20 the military police immediately.
21 Q. And how were your duties as a member of the
22 military police different from your duties as a member
23 of the TO?
24 A. Well, I was in the TO at the Glavaticevo,
25 some disorders started in Konjic. There were various
1 attempts to steal property, so that it was necessary to
2 protect the town and the population and private
4 Q. At some point did Esad Landzo become a member
5 of the military police?
6 A. He did, but later.
7 Q. Was the time at which Esad Landzo became a
8 member of the military police, was that after the
9 murders of the military policeman at Repovci?
10 MR. COWLES: Objection, Your Honours, to the
11 leading form of the questions.
12 JUDGE JAN: She has to find out the times.
13 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, Your Honour,
15 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Direct him to as to what
16 was the relevant time when he did that. You can do
18 MS. BOLER: I can do that. Thank you, Your
20 Q. Do you recall the month when Esad Landzo
21 joined the military police?
22 A. Yes, I do, very well. It was the beginning
23 of August, between the 1st and the 5th or two or three
24 weeks after the killing in Repovci.
25 Q. And at some point, was there a swearing in
1 ceremony for the police?
2 A. There was.
3 Q. Do you recall the time of that ceremony, the
4 date of that ceremony?
5 A. I do because the military police was moved
6 from the premises of Borovo and Oslobodenje, that is in
7 the centre of town, to the Third of March Elementary
8 School where we put up and that is where we were sworn
9 in, in the gym of that school. The date could have
10 been the 20th, 24th, 25th, I don't remember exactly.
11 Q. Of what month?
12 A. Of the month of August.
13 Q. So you attended that ceremony, correct?
14 A. Yes, of course.
15 Q. And did Esad Landzo also attend that
17 A. All of us belonging to the military police
18 were there, including him.
19 Q. And did Nermin Mandic also attend that
21 A. Of course, he was one of the police chiefs,
22 one of the leaders.
23 Q. Can you tell me approximately how many
24 members of the military police were sworn in at that
1 A. About 30, 35, something like that.
2 Q. Okay. Your Honour, at this time, I would
3 like to ask the assistance of the usher and I would
4 like to show a short video clip. I have given the
5 Prosecution a copy and I have given the booth a copy.
6 The amount of time that's shown on this videotape is
7 approximately seven minutes, but I won't be showing all
8 of that. I will just be showing a few portions of the
9 swearing in ceremony, the portions that show Mr.
10 Jusufovic, so that he can verify that he was at the
11 ceremony, as was Esad Landzo.
12 JUDGE JAN: Is Esad Landzo in this tape?
13 MS. BOLER: I'm sorry.
14 JUDGE JAN: Can you see Esad Landzo on this
16 MS. BOLER: I believe not. But you can see
17 Asif Jusufovic, and he can testify that that, indeed,
18 was the ceremony and that Esad Landzo was there.
19 That's all.
20 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Is the Prosecution
21 challenging his being military police?
22 MR. COWLES: Yes, Your Honour.
23 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: You're challenging that
24 he is?
25 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.
1 MR. COWLES: They're not working. Yes, Your
2 Honour, the Prosecution will object unless and until
3 this witness has properly identified it. We fail to
4 see the relevance if the defendant is not depicted in
5 the tape. I think it will go to the weight, but we'll
6 defer it for the Court, if proper foundation is laid
7 for the admissibility of the tape.
8 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: You might show it. You
9 can then tell us those who were sworn too at the same
10 time with him.
11 MS. BOLER: If the video booth, then, will
12 start this tape. It begins at two minutes and six
13 seconds, rather than zero, simply because when I viewed
14 it the first time and I wrote down the times bring to
15 the Court's attention, it was based on two minutes and
16 six seconds.
17 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreters do not
18 have a text.
19 MS. BOLER: I heard that the interpreters do
20 not have a text. It's not going to be necessary for
21 any interpretation. It's just a picture of everybody
22 in the military police uniform with a white belt, which
23 is the -- one of the things that they wore. And they
24 are simply going to pick up their oath at a little
25 table. And you'll see Esad's picture there and some of
1 the others and then --
2 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Well, let's go to the
3 tape and see what it's all about.
4 MS. BOLER: For the information of the video
5 booth -- it began at 206 or 7 and at approximately
6 2.45, I believe it will have our first picture of Mr.
7 Asif Jusufovic. He is in the front row.
8 (Videotape played)
9 MS. BOLER: If the video could freeze at this
10 point, that's the picture of Mr. Jusufovic.
11 Q. Mr. Jusufovic, were you able to watch that
12 tape on your screen?
13 A. No, no, I didn't. I wasn't.
14 Q. That was my fault, I should have reminded
15 you. Now, are you --
16 A. I can see well now.
17 Q. Is that you, Mr. Jusufovic?
18 A. In the cap. The one in the middle wearing a
20 Q. And what is this -- what does this video
21 depict? What's going on here?
22 A. It was a line up and a swearing in, in the
23 gym of the school.
24 Q. And those are the military police being sworn
1 A. Yes, they were.
2 Q. I am going to role just a little bit more of
3 the tape, so that you can see some of the swearing in
4 activity. If the video booth will continue just a
5 little bit with that tape. Would the video freeze --
6 could you back up just a little bit to freeze on the
7 man with the beard. About the third in, if you could
8 back up maybe about 5 or 10 seconds so that we're still
9 viewing the people on the front row. Sorry, if the
10 video booth could just back up 5 or 10 seconds so that
11 we're still viewing the men on the front row. Okay.
12 If you'll just freeze right there, please. Mr.
13 Jusufovic, do you recognise the tall gentleman standing
15 A. Each and every one of them.
16 Q. What is the name of the man who's last there,
17 closest to your left?
18 A. Nermin Mandic.
19 Q. If I can ask the video to role a little
20 farther to where the people are walking up to the desk
21 where they're receiving their certificates. I believe
22 it's at -- 3.15. All right. At some point, just a
23 little farther along, you see the men going up to the
24 front table to pick up their certificate. Could the
25 video show that. If the video room could just fast
1 forward a little bit to where the members of the
2 military police are walking to the front to pick
3 up their -- to sign their certificate. You can see
4 them walking away with a white piece of paper in their
5 hands. If you could freeze -- all right, stop just
7 Mr. Jusufovic, what is going on now in that
8 video? Did you receive a certificate that day?
9 A. We went to sign the oath. Yes, and then we
10 received the certificate.
11 Q. Is that a picture of Nermin Mandic walking
12 away -- Nermin Mandic is walking away with his
14 A. Yes, yes, I see that.
15 Q. Your Honour, at this time I would like to
16 move that this be admitted into evidence. He has
17 identified it as the swearing in ceremony of the
18 military police where he was present?
19 JUDGE JAN: Do you really want this in
20 evidence? Landzo is not in it. So many faces have
21 been shown. He is not amongst them.
22 MS. BOLER: I did look at that again and
23 again, and I believe there is enough faces that are not
24 shown that --
25 JUDGE JAN: I know. If his face had been
1 there, that would have been really evidence. He is not
2 there, why --
3 MS. BOLER: Since Landzo is a lot shorter
4 than everybody else and that there were a lot of people
5 that were not shown.
6 JUDGE JAN: I know, I know. It's up to you,
8 MS. BOLER: Your Honour, we would like to
9 have it into evidence. Is it admitted, Your Honour?
10 Is it admitted, Your Honour?
11 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: It wasn't admitted.
12 MS. BOLER: It was not admitted?
13 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: No.
14 MS. BOLER: Okay, I'll move on. May I ask
15 the registrar, please what the number of that exhibit
17 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: You're trying to show
18 there was a ceremony in which this witness was a
19 participant and which he swore as a military policeman,
20 this witness.
21 MS. BOLER: Yes, Your Honour.
22 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: As to what?
23 MS. BOLER: I'll also ask him another
24 question about that and put something else into
25 evidence in just a few minutes if I could just ask a
1 few more questions before I get to that point.
2 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: If your client was the
3 person identified, it could have been a very relevant
5 MS. BOLER:
6 Q. With the usher's assistance, I would like to
7 give the --
8 THE REGISTRAR: The document was marked D
9 69/4. The videotape was marked D 68/4.
10 MS. BOLER:
11 Q. All right, I would like you to take a look at
12 this document, please, Mr. Jusufovic, and tell me if
13 you can recognise it?
14 A. Yes, I have one like it.
15 Q. And what is it, please? What is it, Mr.
16 Jusufovic? What is that document?
17 A. It is from the official swearing in
18 ceremony. I received one like it.
19 Q. Can you tell me what the date is on the
21 A. The 26th of August, 1992.
22 Q. Can you tell me whose name is on the
23 certificate, who it was issued to?
24 A. Esad Landzo father's name, Sulijo.
25 Q. Does this represent to you that he came a
1 member of the military place on August 26th, 1992?
2 A. Yes, judging by this document, he came at the
3 beginning of August and it was normal for him to take
4 the oath like the rest of us.
5 Q. Your Honours, at this time I would like to
6 introduce this document into evidence.
7 JUDGE JAN: How can you do it? It's not been
8 signed by him. It's not been issued by him. How can
9 he prove it?
10 MS. BOLER: He stated he recognises it
11 because he got one just like it on the same day.
12 JUDGE JAN: If that is all, then how can he
13 prove this document?
14 MS. BOLER: He testified that Esad Landzo
15 also attended the ceremony on that day.
16 JUDGE JAN: That's good enough.
17 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: He could have picked up
18 this paper anywhere else.
19 MS. BOLER: I'm sorry.
20 JUDGE JAN: I don't say that it's not
21 genuine, but he can't prove it.
22 MS. BOLER: All right. I'll move on.
23 Q. Mr. Jusufovic, I am going to direct your
24 attention back to the time when you and Esad Landzo
25 were together in the military police?
1 A. I didn't understand that.
2 Q. Let me just ask you a question. When you
3 were in the military police, together with Esad Landzo,
4 were you aware of any health problems or breathing
5 problems that Mr. Landzo had?
6 A. I noticed that at the first position where we
7 held -- which we held at the cross-roads. As he was
8 mostly alone, he was a loner, he would separate from
9 the rest of us and we would notice his coughing. I had
10 no idea that he had this disease. And then talking
11 with friends, we would discuss it. And later on, we
12 learned that he had this disease -- I am not very
13 familiar with medicine, so I don't know whether it's
14 asthma or something else, but we noticed that he had a
15 shortness of breath. And especially when we went on
16 assignment and if we had to go up hill, it became quite
17 evident that he was short of breath and it became quite
19 Q. Do you recall going to the Village of
21 A. Yes, I went there twice and he went there
22 when I went to second time.
23 Q. Can you describe that journey for me?
24 A. We were going in lorries along a roundabout
25 way to the Village of Dubocani and then from there we
1 went on foot. And while the terrain was flat, he moved
2 like the others. But as soon as there was a slope to
3 climb, he would lag behind the rest of us. As there
4 were plenty of horses around, so we loaded the food and
5 other equipment on them and then we discussed the
6 possibility of sending him back, but he refused. He
7 was given orders to go back, but he wouldn't obey. And
8 then, we put him on a horse and that is how he covered
9 the rest of the journey, on horseback.
10 Q. Well, when he was on the horse, he was able
11 to continue with you?
12 A. Yes, of course. He didn't use his own legs.
13 Q. All right. Now let's go back to the
14 headquarters for the military police. For the most
15 part, what type of tasks was Esad assigned to do?
16 A. At first he was given the same assignments as
17 the rest of us, but later on when we learned of his
18 disease, we realised that he couldn't be assigned to
19 tasks that were urgent. And which required a lot of
20 walking, especially up hill, because he couldn't move
21 as quickly as the others. He would lag behind. Then,
22 he would breathe heavily so that in the end, we
23 wouldn't give him such task, but rather he was assigned
24 to security of commands. He was mostly on duty in the
25 unit. He would be given the less strenuous
2 Q. Can you describe what kind of person did you
3 know him to be when he was with you in the military
5 JUDGE JAN: Are you leading evidence
6 regarding his good character.
7 MS. BOLER: Am I asking evidence regarding
9 JUDGE JAN: Are you asking him about his good
10 character and not his bad character?
11 MS. BOLER: His good character, I understand
12 Your Honour.
13 Q. Approximately how old was Esad when he was
14 with you in the military police?
15 A. I don't know exactly. I know he joined us
16 still as a child. He was 17, 18, maybe younger, but I
17 don't know. I just know that he was childish. He was
18 a child in the real sense of the word by his behaviour
19 and generally. As for his work and tasks, the daily
20 tasks, what he was told to do and ordered to do, he did
21 it conscientiously.
22 Q. Let me ask you now some questions an about
23 Repovci. This may be difficult for you because your
24 brother was one of the military policeman killed there;
25 isn't that true?
1 A. That's correct.
2 Q. What was your brother's name?
3 A. Aziz Jusufovic.
4 Q. Isn't it true that Nermin Mandic's brother,
5 the person that we saw in the tape there, was also
6 killed at Repovci, correct?
7 MR. COWLES: Your Honour, I pose an objection
8 as to the relevancy of this line of questioning.
9 MS. BOLER: As to the relevancy, I think you
10 will find in my very next question. If I might be
11 allowed to ask one more question, I think the relevancy
12 will be clear.
13 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: You may proceed.
14 MS. BOLER:
15 Q. What was the relationship between Nermin
16 Mandic's brother -- let me ask you first, what was his
17 first name, the one who was killed, his first name?
18 A. Ibrahim Mandic.
19 Q. Was he nicknamed Ibro?
20 A. Ibro, that's right.
21 Q. Can you tell me what the relationship was
22 between Esad Landzo and Ibro?
23 A. First of all, they're neighbours, they lived
24 in the same house. So, they new each other very well.
25 But he listened more to Ibro than to his brother and to
1 his father. So you can see what their relationship was
2 from that. Whatever was needed, whatever he needed, he
3 turned to him. He protected him, et cetera.
4 Q. Would you say Ibro was like a father figure
5 to Esad Landzo?
6 A. Yes, something like that. That's correct.
7 JUDGE JAN: They were the same age. How
8 could they have been?
9 MS. BOLER: I think --
10 THE WITNESS: No, no, there is a great age
11 difference between them. Ibrahim was born in 1955 and
12 the younger one is 24 now. So there is an age
13 difference between them. He brought him up. They were
15 MS. BOLER:
16 Q. So if -- do you recall that Esad Landzo's
17 mother baby-sat for Ibro's child?
18 MR. COWLES: Objection to the leading form of
19 the questions, Your Honour.
20 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: I think this is not
21 harmful at all. Let her ask it. It doesn't make any
23 MS. BOLER:
24 Q. Were you aware of that?
25 A. That's normal in my country, that always
1 happens in all neighbourhoods, in all families, people
2 who have more children. This was a poor family and
3 probably when they went to work, they left their
4 children to the Mandic's, to the mother.
5 Q. All right. Let me ask you to tell me how you
6 first heard about what had happened at Repovci.
7 A. I was on duty that night. At 3.00 a.m. I
8 went home to have a rest. And then they contacted me
9 at 10 -- at noon or at 1.00 p.m. to come to the station
10 urgently because something had happened to the control
11 on the way to Repovci, to the patrol. They were not
12 quite sure, quite certain, but --
13 Q. And at that point, did you, did you go to
15 A. I was there and Mandic came too and we drove
16 to Brjdani. At the cross-roads to Repovci, there were
17 lots of people there and military. We were not let
18 through to see what had happened on the scene.
19 Q. But did you see other people milling about?
20 Were you able to see the reactions of the people
22 A. Of course I did. The military were there.
23 The brother of the killed was there too. They gathered
24 the civilians in a small area. There were many units
25 that started going there.
1 Q. Are you familiar with a newspaper called
2 Bosnian Weekly? Are you familiar with that? Free
3 Herzegovina newspaper?
4 A. That's not the name of the newspaper. Free
5 Herzegovina is the name. Yeah, it's the only one.
6 Q. Your Honour, at this time, I would like to,
7 with the assistance of the usher's, show Mr. Jusufovic
8 some pictures that were published in this newspaper.
9 JUDGE JAN: How are is that relevant to us?
10 We're not inquiring into that, the night the policemen
11 were killed. We're more concerned with Celebici. This
12 person said that a person, one of the policeman that
13 was killed there, he was very close to Landzo.
14 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Actually, why did you
15 invite this witness? If you have your ideas, lead your
16 evidence to establish why you called him. That is the
17 most important thing.
18 JUDGE JAN: You wanted to show that Landzo
19 was very upset over the death of one of the policeman.
20 That's what he said. Why bring in the paper?
21 MS. McMURREY: The paper shows the brutality
22 Mr. Landzo saw when he went to the scene that day. And
23 explains his state of mind when he returned to Celebici
24 on July 12th, where he is alleged to have hit Mr. Bosko
25 Semukovic (Phon).
1 JUDGE JAN: So that justifies some of the
2 allegations made against him? You're putting
4 MS. McMURREY: Provocation probably goes to
5 the diminished mental responsibility at the time, Your
7 JUDGE JAN: Call the person who has given the
8 provocation, not the innocent person. Provocation
9 against the person who has given the provocation.
10 MS. McMURREY: Well, they were all told to go
11 into the wounds to search for Chetniks and this man can
12 testify about their reaction in the community --
13 JUDGE JAN: Let him talk about the reaction,
14 instead of getting these pictures on. I am sure it
15 must have caused a lot of sorrow and grief for the
16 death for some many people doing their national duty.
17 I'm sure of that. That testifies -- some of the
18 allegations made against your client. What sort of
19 diminished responsibility would that be? I can
20 understand if someone does some harm to you, you get
21 provoked then I can understand diminished liability.
22 But how would that justify action or taking revenge on
23 innocent persons?
24 MS. McMURREY: Yes, Your Honour, but we're
25 not talking about a normal person. We're talking about
1 a person with a personality disorder.
2 JUDGE JAN: We will decide later whether he
3 is normal or not.
4 MS. McMURREY: These photographs -- we only
5 wanted to show the Trial Chamber these photographs to
6 show the absolute brutality of the scene, to show how
7 shocking that was for a young 18-year-old to come upon
8 this and see his father figure brutally murdered like
9 this. And if the Court would allow, I think these will
10 give you a different impression of what exactly
11 happened on July 12th. And that's the reason and the
12 motivation for needing to, and desiring to present
13 these to the Court.
14 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Did you listen to the
15 date this witness was sworn in?
16 MS. McMURREY: I'm sorry?
17 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: The date he was sworn in
18 as policeman? Did you hear him?
19 MS. McMURREY: Yes, but that's another
20 question. Ms. Boler has not asked the follow-up
21 question to that yet, which will make it clear. First
22 of all, Mr. Landzo was at the scene here on July 12th
23 as a member of the guard from Celebici. They called up
25 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: This is not what we're
1 talking about. We're talking ability his evidence.
2 MS. McMURREY: I am talking about a different
3 side of his evidence.
4 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: And you're not the one
5 giving evidence, are you?
6 MS. McMURREY: I am just trying to tie it in
7 as to relevance.
8 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: That's not --
9 MS. McMURREY: I just thought I was answering
10 the Court's question, I'm sorry.
11 MS. BOLER:
12 Q. Mr. Jusufovic, did you read the newspaper
13 accounts of your brother's killing and the killing of
14 the eight other military policemen that evening?
15 A. The -- this is the only newspaper that dared
16 to write about it in Bosnia-Herzegovina. I went to the
17 editor's office and asked them to write something.
18 They were the only ones who reported on it, on the case
19 in Repovci. I read it and followed everything. I know
20 everything about it.
21 Q. Did they also publish graphic pictures of the
22 dead bodies?
23 A. Yes, that's right. I gave them some pictures
25 JUDGE JAN: Did he see the dead body of his
1 brother? Was it mutilated? Ask him.
2 THE WITNESS: Are you referring to the scene
3 or later? On the spot or later?
4 MS. BOLER:
5 Q. At any time were you allowed to view--
6 A. Yes, I was. I still have the photographs. I
7 brought them with me and, if necessary, I'll show them.
8 Q. What kind of wounds did your brother
10 A. Only his face wasn't mutilated, the rest, all
11 the rest from the shots, from everything.
12 Q. Mr. Jusufovic, have you gotten any help from
13 the authorities in solving these murders?
14 A. No.
15 Q. Are you still --
16 A. We did try. We did try. Over the past six
17 years now, we tried to, inspectors came from Sarajevo,
18 from Mostar and everybody came. They investigated to
19 the end, that's what they said. The case has been
20 solved. But the killers are walking around Konjic. I
21 went there. I brought the documents to the presidency
22 and to the office, security office to the police, the
23 republican police. We went to all the places. We even
24 sent to documents to the tribunal, but nobody has
25 sent -- given us an answer in the past six years,
1 nobody. It seems to me that this is a greater crime
2 than Celebici.
3 JUDGE JAN: He made a statement that the
4 killers are still walking in Konjic. Ask him about it.
5 THE WITNESS: That's what our authorities are
6 saying. The mayor and the head of the police, they
7 told us that the killers are known. I don't know.
8 MS. BOLER:
9 Q. And what was the reaction of the public to
10 what you've been going through?
11 MR. COWLES: Your Honour, I object to the
12 relevancy of this whole line of questioning. There has
13 been no mention of the defendant yet.
14 JUDGE JAN: The defendant is resident of
15 Konjic. Would he not be swayed by the general mood?
16 Go ahead.
17 MS. BOLER:
18 Q. Is it fair to say that the public was
19 outraged by these murders?
20 A. Yes, especially Konjic and the surrounding
21 areas. The whole country was outraged.
22 MS. BOLER: Your Honour, may I just have one
24 Q. Mr. Jusufovic, let me back you up to the
25 swearing in ceremony that we discussed earlier. You
1 stated that the ceremony was in late August, August
3 JUDGE JAN: Yes, that's the date he
5 MS. BOLER:
6 Q. Is it --
7 A. I didn't even know until I saw the date that
8 was in 1992. I can't -- it was August, the middle of
9 August. I know it from Repovci, I followed it. And we
10 were transferred -- I know it was in August, but I
11 don't know the exact date.
12 Q. Let me ask you this: Is it a fact that
13 members of the military police joined in the weeks
14 before, in June and July? Was it a gradual assembling
15 of the military police?
16 A. That's correct. People were selected who
17 would be admitted to the military police and they were
18 admitted gradually. Those who were considered fit for
19 the service, were admitted.
20 Q. And then at the swearing in ceremony, would
21 people who joined in June, July, whatever, at various
22 times, they were all sworn in together on the 26th of
23 August, correct?
24 A. That's right. We were all sworn in together,
25 all of us who were there. Mandic could tell you better
1 because he was one of the commanders.
2 MS. BOLER: All right. Pass the witness,
3 Your Honour.
4 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Are you finished with
5 him? Any cross-examinations?
6 MS. RESIDOVIC: Your Honours, Mr. Delalic's
7 Defence has no questions for this witness.
8 MR. OLUJIC: We have a short question, Your
10 Cross-examined by Mr. Olujic
11 Q. May it please the Court? Good morning, sir,
12 I am Zeljko Olujic. I am the Defence counsel for
13 Zdravko Mucic. I would like to talk to you and put a
14 few questions. Of course, you are able, are you all
15 right now?
16 A. Yes, I am.
17 Q. Do you know Professor Duro Golubovic?
18 A. Professor?
19 Q. Yes, Duro Golubovic, Professor
20 Duro Golubovic?
21 A. I should know him. I can't remember his face
22 now. Golubovic, physical education, P.E., I think I
23 know him.
24 Q. Professor Duro Golubovic, that's his name, a
1 A. There are many Duro Golubovic. I can't
2 remember his name.
3 Q. Do you know of a Duro Golubovic whose family
4 were victims?
5 A. In Konjic, Yes, I know him.
6 Q. Did his family suffer? Do you know anything
7 about it?
8 A. Not hearsay. I know where they were killed.
9 Q. Where were they killed?
10 A. On the road, Zaic Mirlospira (Phon).
11 Q. Do you know how they were killed?
12 A. They were killed.
13 Q. You don't know who killed them?
14 A. Hearsay, the same as in Repovci.
15 Q. Do you know Mr. Miralem Macic?
16 A. There's something more about him?
17 Q. He was a member of the military police?
18 A. No, he was not a member of the military
20 Q. He was never a member?
21 A. No. He was a member of some other unit.
22 MR. DJURIC: Just, a minute we have this
23 problem with the spelling of the transcript. This name
24 has not been put down in the correct form as it was
25 spelled out Mr. Macic, Miralem.
1 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Thank you for drawing
2 attention to it.
3 MR. OLUJIC:
4 Q. Sir, you don't know whether he was a member
5 of the military police. You are excluding this
7 A. Yes, he was never a member of the military
8 police where I was.
9 MR. OLUJIC: I have no further questions.
10 MR. KARABDIC: Your Honours, Hazim Delic's
11 Defence has no questions for this witness.
12 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Any questions for the
14 MR. COWLES: Yes, Your Honour, may it please
15 the Court?
16 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: You may proceed
17 Cross-examined by Mr. Cowles
18 Q. Thank you. Good morning, Mr. Jusufovic.
19 A. Good morning.
20 Q. My name is Jim Cowles and I represent the
21 Prosecution in this matter. Mr. Jusufovic, you
22 testified that you believed that Mr. Landzo became a
23 member of the military police at the beginning of
24 August, 1992; is that correct?
25 A. Yes, between the 1st and the 5th, something
1 like that.
2 Q. Do you recall giving a statement or talking
3 to a Defence lawyer for Mr. Landzo in August of 1996?
4 An attorney, Mr. Brackovic if, if I pronounce it
5 correctly, an attorney from Sarajevo?
6 A. Brackovic, something like that. Yes, I did
7 talk to him.
8 Q. Do you remember, at that time, stating that
9 you cannot recall when it was that Mr. Landzo joined
10 the military police, that it was sometime in the warm
11 months, but you were not sure of the exact dates?
12 A. Yes, yes, that's what I said then because I
13 didn't know the dates. And then I consulted with the
14 commanders and my point of reference was the event in
15 Repovci, so it happened two or three weeks after that.
16 Q. Now, isn't it true that you never went inside
17 the Celebici camp?
18 A. Well, let me be quite clear. I reached as
19 far as the gates on two occasions, that was my duty, to
20 go as far as the gates and that's as far as I went.
21 Q. And that's when you were participating in the
22 turning over of prisoners to the camp; is that
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. You were not, in other words, you were not
1 inside or did not go inside the Celebici camp?
2 JUDGE JAN: This is what he said. He went
3 only up to the gate.
4 MR. COWLES:
5 Q. So you don't know what happened inside
7 A. Our duty was to take them as far as the
8 gate. That was the duty of the military police. We
9 had no responsibilities inside, no rights, either.
10 Q. Now, you were aware that Mr. Landzo was a
11 guard at Celebici camp; is that correct?
12 A. I knew where he was at the beginning of the
13 war. Which formation he joined later on, I didn't know
14 until I learned it from his brother who was with me in
15 the military police, and then he too joined later.
16 Q. You knew Mr. Landzo had served as a guard at
17 Celebici camp; is that correct?
18 MS. McMURREY: Your Honour, that's asked and
20 MR. COWLES: It was wasn't answered, I don't
22 THE WITNESS: No, no.
23 MR. COWLES:
24 Q. You didn't know that Mr. Landzo has served as
25 a guard?
1 A. I didn't know. He worked for a private
2 entrepreneur in Konjic, that is where he worked, and I
3 don't know when he went to Celebici. He was working in
4 a small restaurant, a cafe, or whatever you like to
5 call it.
6 Q. Well, do you remember telling his lawyer in
7 August of 1996 that Mr. Landzo transferred from the
8 Celebici barracks to the military police to join you?
9 A. I said that his brother brought him to the
10 military police to join us from the Celebici camp. And
11 then the brother had told us about him before that,
12 that he wanted to transfer him.
13 Q. All right. Now, you indicated that Mr.
14 Landzo had breathing problems; is that correct?
15 A. That is correct.
16 Q. But you don't know how any breathing problems
17 may have affected him in his work at Celebici, do you?
18 A. I try to explain to you that heavy labour and
19 walking up hill was difficult for him. He could work
20 if he went on a low ground, but as soon as he had to
21 walk up hill, it became difficult.
22 Q. My question is, you don't know how it may
23 have affected him in Celebici camp, do you?
24 A. It's not up to me to think about those
1 Q. Well now, you are aware that Mr. Landzo drank
2 a lot from an early age and he was using pills; wasn't
3 he in 1992?
4 A. I am aware of the pills. And at the
5 beginning of the war most people spent time in
6 basements, and he was with friends who did drink
7 alcohol. And when he took these pills when he was with
8 us, he said that he was taking these pills, but he
9 didn't tell us that it was for some disease. He
10 avoided talking about it.
11 Q. Are you aware, Mr. Jusufovic, that Mr. Landzo
12 served with the Bosnian army in several actions in
13 warfare? Are you aware of that?
14 A. I didn't quite understand. Which army? The
15 BiH army or before?
16 Q. Yes, the BiH army.
17 A. Oh, he went with me for the first time to
18 Glavaticevo. And before then, I only know him from the
19 cafe, from the restaurant.
20 Q. Are you aware that he served as a soldier in
21 other actions, besides Glavaticevo?
22 A. He came from the camp to join us in the
23 military police. Where he was before that and after
24 that, I don't know. I just know about the time when he
25 was in the military police. I can testify to that.
1 Q. So is the only action or military action that
2 you know Mr. Landzo to have participated in, is the
3 action concerning Glavaticevo?
4 A. That's it, yes.
5 MR. COWLES: Thank you Your Honours, that's
6 all I have. I pass the witness.
7 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Any re-examination?
8 Re-examined by Ms. Boler
9 Q. Your Honour, at this time I would like to --
10 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.
11 Microphone, please.
12 MS. BOLER:
13 Q. Your Honour, at this time I would like to ask
14 the usher's assistance to show Mr. Jusufovic, the
15 Bosnian copy of the statement that he gave to
16 Brackovic, that Mr. Cowles just used in his line of
18 JUDGE JAN: The Prosecutor has not asked him
19 because he could impeach him with reference to that
21 MS. BOLER: I don't think he did impeached
23 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: He hasn't, but he could
24 if you now begin with it.
25 JUDGE JAN: You're not producing the
1 statement to corroborate -- that you can't give. The
2 witness is here.
3 MS. BOLER: We're introducing it to show that
4 the Prosecutor did not impeach him and I am going to
5 ask him if he still stands by this statement that he
7 JUDGE JAN: The Prosecutor has not asked him
8 about it at all. Why do you want to produce it?
9 MS. BOLER: Your Honour, I just think it
10 would be useful for --
11 JUDGE JAN: For the purposes of corroboration
12 for what purpose?
13 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Do you want the
14 Prosecution to comment it on later? You want them to
15 do that?
16 MS. BOLER: We're not introducing it as
17 substantive evidence, just that the Prosecution was not
18 able to impeach Mr. Jusufovic with this statement.
19 JUDGE JAN: The Prosecution has not asked
20 that that statement be before us.
21 MS. BOLER: My understanding is that if the
22 Prosecution attempts to impeach with this statement,
23 then I am allowed to introduce a prior statement into
25 JUDGE JAN: If he wanted to impeach it, he
1 would have said, "Please take this into evidence. This
2 is what he said earlier." He has not done that.
3 MS. BOLER: I understand that, but he did use
4 this statement to question Mr. Jusufovic and attempt to
5 impeach him.
6 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: If you want to, show it
7 to him. When it comes into evidence, he will be
8 entitled at any time to rely on it.
9 MS. BOLER: Your Honour, at this time, I
10 would just point out to the Court that it is 11.30 and
11 ask, Your Honours, if this would be a convenient time
12 to take a break.
13 JUDGE JAN: Don't you think we've already had
14 a break.
15 MS. BOLER: I don't feel like I've had a
16 break, no.
17 MR. COWLES: Your Honours, I would like to
18 offer an objection. This is an improper attempt to try
19 to corroborate her own witness and I would object to
20 the introduction of the statement, itself.
21 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: You will continue your
22 re-examination when we resume, is it?
23 MS. BOLER: Yes, Your Honour.
24 THE REGISTRAR: The document has been marked
25 defence document D 70/4.
1 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: The Trial Chamber will
2 now rise and reassemble at noon.
3 --- Recess taken at 11.35 a.m.
4 --- On resuming at 12.05.
5 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: You can start your
7 THE REGISTRAR: I remind you, sir that you
8 are still under oath.
9 Re-examined by Ms. Boler
10 Q. Mr. Jusufovic, I just have one final
11 question. Do you see Esad Landzo in the courtroom
13 A. I do.
14 Q. And does he look different today than when
15 you knew him in the military police?
16 A. There is a great difference.
17 Q. Just describe his appearance and behaviour in
18 the military police as opposed to what you see today.
19 That's my final question.
20 A. When he came to the military police, I don't
21 know whether anyone exchanged two sentences with him.
22 He was always somewhere in the corner. I don't know,
23 he looked lost --
24 MR. COWLES: Your Honour, I object to this
25 question. It's improper re-direct. And she asked
1 appearance and not personality or character.
2 MS. BOLER:
3 Q. Does he appear to be a different person today
4 than from what you knew back then?
5 A. Not only that he seems -- I see that he is
6 different. It looks like heaven and earth. He is very
7 different. He looks much better. At that time he
8 looked lost. He looked like a lost child then. We
9 were 15 of us there, but nobody was on intimate terms
10 with him.
11 MS. BOLER: Thank you, Mr. Jusufovic. Thank
12 you for your time.
13 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Thank you very much, Mr.
14 Asif, and we're very grateful for your assistance.
15 Thank you. Can we have your next witness, please.
16 (Witness withdrew)
17 MS. McMURREY: Your Honour, the Defence has
18 two subpoenaed witnesses present in The Hague right
19 now. But we had discussions with them last night and I
20 would really like it if the Court would let us have an
21 ex parte hearing before the Court on some of the
22 matters regarding our witnesses that are not able to
23 testify at the moment.
24 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: An ex parte hearing, you
25 mean the Prosecution should not be involved in it?
1 MS. McMURREY: I don't think they have
2 anything to do with the problems that I am having with
3 my witnesses.
4 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: And the witnesses who
5 are expected to testify before the Tribunal?
6 MS. McMURREY: Yes, Your Honour.
7 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: And the Prosecution has
8 nothing to do with that?
9 MS. McMURREY: I don't see how they do. It's
10 my problem with the witnesses. It has nothing to do
11 with the Prosecution's opinion one way or the other.
12 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Are they before the
14 MS. McMURREY: Yes, Your Honour. I would
15 like for them to testify before the Tribunal. But I
16 don't intend to discuss ex parte with the Court any
17 testimony of the witness, only the problems that are
18 arising trying to get testimony out of witnesses. It's
19 a problem that the defence is experiencing. I think
20 that it's something that needs to be brought to the
21 attention of the Court and you can offer guidance to
22 us. If the Prosecutor wants to be present, I don't
23 have a problem with it. But I think it's a matter that
24 needs to be discussed between the Defence of Esad
25 Landzo and the Trial Chamber.
1 JUDGE JAN: (Microphone not on)
2 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please, Your
4 MS. McMURREY: Are we in private session?
5 THE REGISTRAR: We are in private session
7 (In private session)
13 pages 14701-14730 redacted – private session
16 --- Luncheon recess taken at 12.37 p.m.
17 --- Upon commencing at 2.35 p.m.
22 --- Whereupon proceedings adjourned at
23 2.55 p.m., to be reconvened on the
24 17th day of July, 1998, at 10.00 a.m.