1 Tuesday, July 21st, 1998
2 (Closed session)
3 --- Upon commencing at 10.20 a.m.
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7 --- Recess taken at 10.30 a.m.
8 --- On resuming at 10.50 a.m.
9 (In open session)
10 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Good morning, ladies and
11 gentlemen. May we have the appearances, please.
12 MR. TURONE: Good morning, Your Honours, my
13 name is Turone, and I appear today with Mr. Cowles and
14 Mr. Huber for the Prosecution. Thank you.
15 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: May we have appearances
16 for the Defence, please.
17 MS. RESIDOVIC: Good morning, Your Honours, I
18 am Edina Residovic, Defence counsel for Mr. Zejnil
19 Delalic. Mr. Delalic is also counsel by Mr. Eugene
20 O'Sullivan, professor from Canada. Thank you.
21 MR. OLUJIC: Good morning, Your Honours. I
22 am Mr. Zdeljco Olujic, Defence counsel for Mr. Zdravko
23 Mucic, along with my colleague Niko Djuric, we're both
24 attorneys from Croatia, thank you.
25 MR. KARABDIC: Good morning, Your Honours, I
1 am Salih Karabdic, attorney from Sarajevo, Defence
2 counsel for Mr. Hazim Delic, along with Tom Moran,
3 attorney from Houston, Texas.
4 MS. McMURREY: Good morning, Your Honours, I
5 am Cynthia McMurrey. I represent Esad Landzo, along
6 with my co-counsel, Ms. Nancy Boler and Mr. Calvin
8 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Thank you very much.
9 (The witness enters)
10 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Will you kindly swear
11 the witness.
12 THE WITNESS: I solemnly declare that I will
13 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the
15 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Will you please take
16 your seat.
17 THE WITNESS: Nedzida Landzo.
18 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: You may proceed, Ms.
20 MS. McMURREY: Thank you, Your Honours.
21 Examined by Ms. McMurrey:
22 Q. Would you introduce yourself to the Court,
24 A. I am Nedzida Landzo.
25 Q. And, Ms. Landzo, you've never testified in
1 Court before, have you?
2 A. I have not.
3 Q. Are you a little bit nervous today?
4 A. Yes, a little bit.
5 Q. And you do speak some English, but you prefer
6 to testify today in your native language; is that
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Thank you. Now, Ms. Landzo, how do you know
10 Esad Landzo?
11 A. Esad is my brother.
12 Q. And how many brothers and sisters do you
14 A. I have three more brothers.
15 Q. And where does Esad fit in the order of the
16 children in your family?
17 A. He is second.
18 MS. BOLER: Your Honours, I think what's
19 happening is sometimes there is a -- sometimes there is
20 a short in this one, which is the one I usually use.
21 And I am aware of this short. Cynthia is caught by
22 surprise and I think if you'll allow me, I'll just
23 switch that way you won't be interrupting, when I can
24 just jiggle it when I need to because I am used to
25 it. --
1 MS. McMURREY: I'm sorry, Your Honours, I
2 didn't hear any interpretation then.
3 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: She said he's second.
4 MS. McMURREY: Thank you very much.
5 Q. That makes him how many years older than
7 A. I was born in '76. And he is born -- he was
8 born in '73.
9 MS. McMURREY: I'm sorry, Your Honours, I am
10 still not hearing anything.
11 THE WITNESS: I was born in 1976 and he was
12 born in 1973.
13 THE INTERPRETER: I am repeating the
15 MS. McMURREY: Could I have a test, please?
16 THE INTERPRETER: Yes, the witness had just
17 said she was born in 1976 and Esad was born in 1973.
18 MS. McMURREY: Thank you very much.
19 Q. Ms. Landzo, can you tell us what kind of
20 young boy Esad Landzo was?
21 A. He was mostly shy. I am significantly
22 younger than him. But when he was in elementary
23 school, I attended the same elementary school as Esad.
24 He always had his circle of friends and I know that he
25 was an excellent student. He was especially good in
1 painting. We had the same teacher, Ms. Vera (Phon).
2 She was our art teacher. And she used to say that I
3 have the same talent for the arts, but that I wasn't as
4 good as my brother.
5 Q. Let me ask you, did he suffer from any
6 physical problems as a child?
7 A. Well, he was -- when he was young, he had a
8 severe bronchitis. My father and my mother would often
9 send him to the coast, to the seacoast because the
10 doctor used to recommend doing that, used to say that
11 that type of climate would do him well. They would
12 also send him to Glavaticevo, to the grandparents
13 because this is where the air was slightly colder.
14 Q. Do you remember at times when he had to go to
15 the hospital for special treatment for his asthma or
17 A. Every time when he had a cold, they would
18 always prescribe injections, shots for him. And I also
19 remember that he used to have to go to Sarajevo to do
20 some allergy tests to see what he was allergic to. I
21 think he had a total of about 15 shots to see what he
22 was allergic to.
23 Q. Do you remember your mother treating him for
24 his asthma with home remedies?
25 A. Yes, somebody told my mother that goat's milk
1 and the honey were good for this kind of condition.
2 And since he took this frequently, perhaps, he was fed
3 up with it. So, even today, he cannot stand the smell
4 of milk.
5 Q. Did she also use goat's fat to treat him?
6 A. Yes, she would put that kind of fat on his
7 back and on his lungs.
8 Q. Do you remember Mr. Landzo adopting stray
9 animals? Did he play with animals more than he did
10 children as a young boy?
11 A. Yes, I know he had always dogs. I know this
12 because I was always extremely afraid of the dogs. So
13 he would always be with them. And, during the war, he
14 had a tiger (sic), I think it was a Shepherd. And
15 occasionally he would take the brush, the scrubbing
16 brush and brush the dog because the hair used to come
17 off to shed and I remember that my mother would always
18 be angry at him for that.
19 Q. Now, you said he was a shy young boy, did he
20 have very many friends or did he just have one friend
21 in particular?
22 A. Since I was younger, I know that, that lately
23 he used to be friends with Valentin who was also a
24 neighbour at the time and they would occasionally go to
25 their country house in Seonica. And he would
1 frequently also spend time with him in his apartment.
2 Q. And did Mr. Landzo paint something special
3 for his friend, Valentin?
4 A. Yes, he painted in his room. He painted on
5 the surface of the whole wall and a painting for him.
6 Q. Now, did Mr. Landzo do a lot of drawing for
7 other children in the neighbourhood?
8 MR. COWLES: Your Honours, we do object to
9 this line of questioning as to its relevancy.
10 MS. McMURREY: Your Honours, may I respond?
11 It goes to the fact that he was an excellent artist,
12 that he couldn't go to art school. I think the
13 Prosecution was given broad latitude on their direct
14 examination. And this is going to be limited to what
15 his sister remembers about his childhood, which is
16 relevant to his mental state.
17 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Yes, you may continue.
18 MS. McMURREY: Thank you.
19 Q. Did he draw for the other children?
20 A. Yes, in my street there were about 15 of my
21 friends living. And at that time a band called new
22 Kids on the Block used to be popular. And he used to
23 draw on all of our bags the faces of the members of
24 that band and we used to dance that way.
25 Q. Your art teacher, what was her name?
1 A. Ms. Vera.
2 Q. Did she have high hopes and expectations and
3 hopes for your brother in the field of art?
4 A. My brother at the end of the school year
5 would frequently be awarded an award called "Titore's
6 Paths of Revolution."
7 Q. I'm sorry, with the assistance of the usher,
8 could I please ask him to show this book to Mrs.
9 Landzo -- Ms. Landzo.
10 Ms. Landzo, can you look at this book. Do
11 you know what this is?
12 A. Yes, this was an award given in the painting
13 competition. And I remember that it was a drawing of
14 Bosko Buha.
15 Q. And can you tell the Court how you felt about
16 this painting? Was it unusual?
17 A. Since I am not a good connoisseur of painting
18 even today, I remember that this drawing was mostly
19 black and to me it looked ridiculous.
20 Q. But was it considered quite artistic by the
21 other people in the school?
22 A. Yes. There were two art teachers in my
23 school and also two art teachers from another school
24 who were making decisions concerning the award.
25 Q. I don't remember, did you answer whether his
1 art teacher had high expectations for him in the
2 future? Did she want him to become an art teacher?
3 A. When he graduated from the 8th grade, his
4 teacher even advised him to, to apply to the art school
5 in Sarajevo. And my father did take him to Sarajevo.
6 He passed the entrance exam. But due to financial
7 means, the lack of financial means, and due to his
8 condition, my father also thought that he was too young
9 to go to Sarajevo. So due to all that, he entered the
10 forestry school in Konjic.
11 Q. You too had another career you wished to
12 pursue, but weren't able to pursue it, didn't you?
13 A. I wanted to attend the hair dressing school
14 in Sarajevo.
15 Q. Mr. Landzo finished secondary school, didn't
17 A. Yes, three years.
18 Q. And what was he forced to accept as his
19 profession in secondary school?
20 A. Can you explain?
21 Q. I'm sorry. Tell me that if my questions are
22 not clear and I'll try to explain them. I am quite
23 confusing often times. He wasn't able to go into art,
24 so he graduated from secondary school in what field?
25 A. It was a forestry school.
1 Q. Thank you. I now want to go back to 1991,
2 are you aware of a hand injury that your brother
4 A. Yes, he cut himself with a knife.
5 Q. And what was the result of that hand injury?
6 Did he lose the use of his, some of his hand?
7 A. Yes, a surgery was done by a Mr. Sejo and he
8 wasn't able to move three of his fingers.
9 Q. When you say Mr. Sejo, is that Dr. Buturovic?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Was your brother ashamed of this injury? Did
12 he attempt to conceal it, or not?
13 A. When he took the plaster off, the cast off,
14 he would always keep his fist tightly closed, or he
15 would often keep his hand in the pocket, and he used to
16 be embarrassed when he had to shake hands with someone.
17 Q. I want to go on to another topic. After your
18 brother graduated from secondary school, did he go to
19 work for someone then?
20 A. Yes, he worked for Mr. Miro Hadzialabic, who
21 had a company called Elmo Komerc myth in Konjic.
22 Q. Do you remember what time of the year or when
23 he went to work for Mr. Miro?
24 A. I don't remember what year it was. I do know
25 that it was before the war.
1 Q. Can you tell the Court what Mr. Landzo's
2 relationship was to Miro? How did he think of Miro?
3 A. I know that every time Mr. Miro would call
4 him, regardless of whether he was available or not, he
5 would always respond and go to Mr. Miro. And Mr. Miro
6 used to leave with him the keys to the storage where
7 there were a lot of goods, very important significant
8 goods. And based on this example, I do believe that
9 Mr. Miro had trusted Esad highly, and also vice versa,
10 Esad trusted him.
11 Q. And when your brother worked for Miro, did he
12 get paid in money, or how was he compensated for his
14 A. He wouldn't pay him regularly. He wouldn't
15 pay him regular salary. Mostly Esad would get clothes
16 and food that he would bring home.
17 Q. Thank you. Can you say whether Mr. Landzo
18 worked longer hours that normal for Miro?
19 A. Yes, he worked in Elmo Komerc during the day,
20 and at night, I don't know for what reason, whether
21 there wasn't any other guards or whether Mr. Miro
22 didn't trust other people, but he would stay there for
23 24 hours at a time. And he even went to visit Miro's
24 parents in Tuleg and helped them.
25 Q. Now, would Mr. Landzo do other things for
1 Miro, too?
2 A. Can you explain what other things?
3 Q. Would he do almost anything that Miro asked
4 him to do?
5 A. I only know that he worked at Elmo Komerc.
6 But also, where there were deliveries when Miro wanted
7 to send something to his mother into Tuleg, then Miro
8 would take it up there, then Esad, sorry, would take it
9 up there.
10 Q. Now, in 19 -- or, tell me, did, when the war
11 broke out, did your father join up with the TO?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. And had your brother received a letter from
14 Mostar to join the JNA prior to that time?
15 A. Yes, he received from the former JNA a letter
16 to appear for the mandatory military service, and since
17 my father heard from other people who had children the
18 same age, that they wouldn't be sending them due to the
19 situation in Croatia, then my father refused to send
20 him and sent him to the grandfather's in Glavaticevo.
21 Q. Now, when the war broke out in Konjic in
22 1992 --
23 A. April 6, 1992. I think it was the second day
24 of Ramadan, I'm not sure, but I know it was Ramadan.
25 Q. Did many of the young boys join the TO at
1 that time?
2 A. Yes, even my younger brother, who is younger
3 than Esad, responded to this call, and he wasn't even
4 17 years old at the time. And he was sent there as a
6 Q. So, not only your father joined the TO, but
7 three of your brothers were members of the TO; is that
8 what you're saying?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Now, I had asked you about a situation on
11 June 6th where some people were killed on your street
12 because of shelling; can you describe to the Court
13 about what happened on June 6th, on your street?
14 A. I think it was around noon, they started
15 shelling the city, and since my youngest brother was
16 outside, my mother and I were worried. And after a
17 certain time when things got calm again, my brother
18 burst into the apartment completely pale, and when we
19 asked him what happened, he wasn't able to respond, he
20 was stuttering. And he simply pronounced that
21 Matsipura (Phon) was killed. That young man lived in
22 my building, he was my age. There were two more men
23 from our neighbourhood together with him.
24 Q. And if I said June 6th, I believe it might
25 have been June 4th instead of June 6th.
1 Do you know whether your brother Esad joined
2 the TO in June of 1992?
3 A. I don't know what month it was, but I
4 remember that my father and three of my brothers joined
5 the army, and that they were given -- my father was
6 given a rifle and the three of my brothers were given
7 also arms.
8 Q. I want to go on in 1992. Your brother Esad
9 was stationed in Celebici in June of 1992; would that
10 be your -- do you remember that?
11 A. Yes, I remember.
12 Q. Now, can you say whether there was anything
13 that you noticed different about Mr. Landzo after he
14 was stationed at Celebici in 1992?
15 A. He was generally shy before the war, and at
16 that time he was more withdrawn. And he used to be
18 Q. Did your mother ever run into someone named
19 Sejo Mustafic?
20 A. Sejo Mustafic used to live in our building,
21 he took an apartment, and he would frequently come on
22 the weekends, home. And on one occasion my mother met
23 him in the entrance of the building, and asked him
24 about Esad, why wasn't he coming. He responded and
25 told her not to worry, that everything was all right.
1 Q. Let me ask you about a named Ibro Mangic. Do
2 you remember that name?
3 A. He lived on a floor above us.
4 Q. Did your mother baby-sit Mr. Mangic's
5 children, or child?
6 A. Yes. She baby-sat young Arman, his son.
7 Q. Do you know what the relationship was between
8 your brother Esad and Ibro Mangic?
9 A. In the city I'm not aware of that, because I
10 wasn't living in the house, but I know that when he
11 transferred to the police, he used to say to my father
12 that there was no need to worry. He used to say that
13 he was treating Esad just like his own son, Arman.
14 Q. So, would it be fair to say that Esad looked
15 to Mr. Ibro as a father figure?
16 A. I think that he did.
17 Q. Do you know what happened to Ibro?
18 A. He was killed in Bradina, together with
19 another eight people.
20 Q. Now, did your brother ever date? Was he in
21 love with a girl during the war?
22 A. Yes, he was.
23 Q. Was her name Vedrana?
24 A. Yes, it was.
25 Q. What was her ethnic background?
1 A. She was Catholic.
2 Q. And did he do everything for her?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. And what happened to Vedrana?
5 A. Since her mother left to the part that is now
6 under the control of the HVO, shortly thereafter she
7 left and joined her.
8 Q. And were there people trying to keep Esad
9 from seeing her?
10 A. I don't know.
11 Q. If you don't know, that's fine. Thank you.
12 I want to ask you a question. Before the
13 summer of 1992, did you ever see your brother Esad
14 involved in any prior acts of violence? Was he ever a
15 violent boy before the summer of 1992?
16 A. Earlier he kept company with Valentin and,
17 for the most part, they were spending time together
18 alone. They would not stay out very late. And he had
19 no problems with anybody else in Konjic.
20 Q. Now, would it be fair to say that your
21 brother, Esad, has basically been in custody since
23 A. He was always being called to give some
24 statements, and they would always say that he would
25 come back after he had given them, but they would
1 always keep him two, and often even more months.
2 After that he would be released for a month
3 or two, and again somebody else would call him, and on
4 one occasion it even happened that Adnan Alkadic took
5 him to give a statement, and since he did not come back
6 in the evening, my brother said that they had taken him
7 to a certain location for safety reasons. He didn't
8 come back for three or four days, and when he
9 reappeared he was all dirty. And he said that he had
10 come back from that location on foot, but from where,
11 that I don't know.
12 Q. Do you remember whether that was 1994 or not?
13 A. I don't know what year it was. I know that
14 it was during the war.
15 Q. Now, is that true also of when he went to
16 Sarajevo to make a statement for this Tribunal?
17 A. That morning when this happened, a cousin of
18 mine came, Zijo Landzo, and said that he had to go to
19 Sarajevo because of some statement, and that he would
20 come back in an hour, but they had kept, they kept him
21 there for, I believe, 45 days.
22 Q. Let me ask you about your knowledge of our
23 attempts to call witnesses in this case. Can you tell
24 the Court about a witness named Sok, do you know Sok?
25 A. Madam Nancy was in Konjic recently, and when
1 Sok entered the room together with Mr. Sut, he said
2 that he should not give any statements, no statements,
3 because his lawyer had told him so. When Madam Nancy
4 asked who his lawyer was, he said that he did not have
5 one, but that Mr. Salihovic advised him not to give any
6 more statements.
7 Q. What was that name again?
8 A. Whose name?
9 Q. The name of the person who said that he
10 should not give any statements?
11 JUDGE JAN: Salihovic?
12 A. Mr. Salihovic.
13 MS. McMURREY:
14 Q. Do you know a person named Salihovic?
15 A. I know that this is the counsel to Mr. Hazim
17 Q. Thank you.
18 Now, when Mrs. Boler arrived in Sarajevo, was
19 there a message waiting for her about accommodations?
20 JUDGE JAN: Is this all relevant for our
22 MS. McMURREY: It has to do with our attempts
23 to bring witnesses.
24 JUDGE JAN: Whatever it is, the witness is
25 now here, for one reason or the other, you've given
1 them up. Why pursue this line?
2 MS. McMURREY: Some of them I was not able to
3 bring forward. But at this point I have no further
4 questions for Miss Landzo and I pass the witness.
5 Thank you very much. But have you to stay
7 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Any cross-examination of
8 this witness?
9 MS. RESIDOVIC: Your Honours, defence of
10 Mr. Delalic has no questions of this witness.
11 MR. OLUJIC: Your Honours, we have no
12 questions for this witness, thank you.
13 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Does the Prosecution
14 have any questions?
15 MR. COWLES: We have no questions, Your
17 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: No questions. Thank you
18 very much, young lady, you are discharged.
19 MS. McMURREY: Your Honour, it's 11.30, are
20 we going to take the 11.30 break this morning, or are
21 we going to take this next witness? I'm prepared and
22 he's prepared, I just thought this might be a good time
23 to take the break.
24 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: We will break and come
25 back at noon.
1 MS. McMURREY: Thank you.
2 --- Recess taken at 11.30 a.m.
3 --- On resuming at 12.02 p.m.
4 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Yes, you may proceed.
5 Swear the witness, please.
6 THE WITNESS: I solemnly declare that I will
7 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the
9 THE WITNESS: Ramo Salihovic.
10 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: You may take your seat,
11 please, sit down.
12 THE WITNESS: Thank you.
13 Examined by Ms. McMurrey
14 Q. Mr. Salihovic, it looks a little
15 uncomfortable, do you want to pull your chair a little
16 closer to the microphones? Yes, I think that will be
18 A. Thank you.
19 Q. Could you introduce yourself to the Court,
21 A. Yes, I can. I will introduce myself, I am
22 Ramo Salihovic, born in Bjelovcina, 16th August 1943,
23 in the Municipality of Konjic in Bosnia-Herzegovina.
24 Q. Thank you very much. Now, you've never
25 testified in Court --
1 A. You're welcome.
2 Q. -- have you?
3 A. I never had an opportunity to testify before
4 a court and this is why I would like to request of the
5 Trial Chamber to forgive me if I get confused here.
6 Q. I am sure that the Trial Chamber will forgive
7 you. And if the reason that you're confused has to do
8 with any of my questioning, please stop me and let me,
9 you know, clarify my question for you because it could
10 be my fault.
11 A. Thank you.
12 Q. Thank you. Now, you were born in the Konjic
13 Municipality, have you lived in Bjelovcina, all of our
15 A. Yes, I have.
16 Q. And you served in the TO during the war in
17 1992, '93 and '94, didn't you?
18 A. Yes, I did.
19 Q. And just so the Court knows, were you the
20 cook for the TO then?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Now, I want to go back to 1992, in your
23 Village of Bjelovcina, is it true that some of the
24 Serbs living in your village refused to be armed?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. And the ones that refused to be armed, were
2 they arrested?
3 A. Only brought in for questioning and then
5 Q. So the ones that were arrested and held were
6 ones that possessed arms in your village; is that
8 A. Yes.
9 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: You are telling him
11 MS. McMURREY: I am just asking him. I'm
12 sorry, did I not form it as a question? I'm sorry.
13 With the assistance of the usher, I would like to show
14 this document to Mr. Salihovic. And I do have to say
15 this document has not been provided to the Prosecution
16 right now. I have an English translation of this.
17 JUDGE JAN: What is this document?
18 MS. McMURREY: It's a list that he prepared
19 of the people in his Village of Serb ethnicity that
20 were armed. And here's English translations for the
21 Court and for the Prosecution.
22 MR. TURONE: We complain for the fact that
23 the Prosecution did not receive this document in
25 MS. McMURREY: And I will ask --
1 Q. Mr. Salihovic, did you prepare this list from
2 your memory recently?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. And when did you prepare this list?
5 A. Before coming to this Tribunal.
6 Q. Was that this morning?
7 A. No, last night.
8 Q. I just want the record to reflect that I did
9 not have possession of this until this morning. And
10 these are the people that you have personal knowledge
11 of in your Village of Bjelovcina?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. And is this list an accurate list of the
14 people that you knew possessed arms in Bjelovcina in
15 May of 1992?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. I would like to offer this document into
18 evidence right now, just because of impeachment
19 purposes, Your Honour, the Prosecution witnesses
20 testified from Bjelovcina that they were not armed and
21 that they did not have weapons. And I would just like
22 to offer this as impeachment testimony at this point of
23 the testimony of Mirko Babic.
24 MR. TURONE: We object to that, Your Honour.
25 This is a document which we cannot even understand how
1 it was reconstructed by the witness.
2 JUDGE JAN: But from his memory.
3 MS. McMURREY: Your Honours, Mr. Turone is
4 welcome to cross-examine the witness regarding it. I
5 would like to offer it into evidence for impeachment
7 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: The document is all
8 admitted by this witness?
9 MS. McMURREY: Yes, Your Honour.
10 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: On his own?
11 MS. McMURREY: On his own, Your Honour.
12 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: It's admitted.
13 MS. McMURREY: Thank you.
14 THE REGISTRAR: That's Document D 73/4.
15 MS. McMURREY: Thank you.
16 Q. Now, Mr. Salihovic, coming from the Village
17 of Bjelovcina, did you know a man named Hristo Vukalo?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. And was he armed or not armed in May of
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. How do you know him?
23 A. He was. Yes, he was.
24 Q. With the assistance of the usher, please,
25 could you show the witness that photograph?
1 THE REGISTRAR: Defence Document D 74/4.
2 MS. McMURREY: Thank you.
3 Q. Mr. Salihovic, do you know that person in
4 that photograph?
5 A. Yes, this person is Mirko Babic, born in the
6 Village of Bjelovcina, I believe in 1932 or maybe
7 '34, '32 or '34. He was a forester by trade. He was
8 also working for the company shipment. He worked in
9 Bjelovcina. He was never married. He lived together
10 with his brother in a family household.
11 Q. I would like the record to reflect that the
12 witness has identified the photograph as Mirko Babic
13 and this is a photograph taken from his testimony in
14 this courtroom. I would like to offer it into evidence
15 at this time.
16 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Any views on the
18 MR. TURONE: May we see the picture on the
19 ELMO, please?
20 JUDGE JAN: You can see the picture
22 MR. TURONE: Simply to have a look at it. I
23 don't mean I don't trust that, it's just a matter of
25 MS. McMURREY: I don't take that as any
1 attack on me, Mr. Turone.
2 MR. TURONE: No objection.
3 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: It's admitted.
4 MS. McMURREY: Thank you very much.
5 Q. Mr. Salihovic, I believe you said that Mr.
6 Babic was your neighbour, have you known him for a long
7 period of time?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. And were you aware of an incident in which
10 Mirko Babic injured his leg prior to 1992?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Could you tell the Court about this injury
13 that he suffered?
14 A. I don't know to what extent you will
15 understand me, what the job that they were working on
16 was when he was injured. I believe that they were --
17 they had a lime pit that they were working on. They
18 were processing it in order to produce this
19 construction material. And while they were burning
20 this lime, when it didn't light immediately, so they
21 poured in gasoline and they lit it up then. And as the
22 flames jumped at them, Mirko Babic, Gotovac Rajko,
23 Marijam Rajic, Savo Gotovac, were all injured. And I
24 believe there were others who were injured there too,
25 but I do not remember them.
1 Q. Do you remember where Mr. Babic's injury
2 was? What part of his body?
3 A. I believe it was his right leg, maybe in some
4 other parts of his body, but I believe it was the right
5 leg that was injured the most.
6 Q. And did you see him being -- his bandages and
7 his results of that injury?
8 A. I saw the bandages, but I did not see the
9 consequence after he left the hospital, after he had
10 been treated there.
11 Q. And do you know whether he was treated in the
12 Konjic Hospital or not? If you don't know, it's okay,
13 but --
14 A. In Konjic.
15 Q. Thank you. In all --
16 A. You're welcome.
17 Q. And that injury from this forestry accident,
18 that happened before the war started in 1992, didn't
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Now, was Mirko Babic involved in the SDS
22 party in your village?
23 A. Yes. He was the president of the SDS party.
24 Q. And did he participate in arming the people
25 of Bjelovcina?
1 A. I don't know about the arming, but others
2 were bringing in weapons and most probably he was
3 involved in his distribution too.
4 Q. When you say others were involved in bringing
5 in weapons, who were the other people involved in
6 bringing in weapons?
7 A. The main person for the bringing in of the
8 weapons was Dusko Banjo, the son of Manchilo Banjo
10 Q. And was Dusko Banjo related to Branko
12 A. They do have family ties. However, I don't
13 know if he was connected with him in any other ways.
14 That I cannot speak to.
15 Q. Now, in May of 1992, did Mirko Babic have in
16 his possession weapons other than his little pistol
17 that he had associated with this job in the forestry
19 A. Mirko Babic did possess weapons in 1992. He
20 had a pistol, Berretta, which he had from before and,
21 in addition to that, he had other weapons.
22 Q. And can you describe what kind of other
23 weapons he possessed too?
24 A. He had an automatic rifle.
25 Q. Was there some kind of installation for a
1 machine gun next to his home?
2 A. Above the house, maybe 100 or 200 metres up
3 from it, there was a dugout and they had set up a
4 machine gun there.
5 Q. So if Mr. Babic had said that the only weapon
6 he had was a pistol, would he be telling the truth?
7 A. He would not.
8 Q. If he said that none of the Serbs in his
9 village were armed, would he be telling the truth?
10 A. That is not true.
11 Q. And if he said that he had never been in an
12 incident which burned his leg before the war, would he
13 be telling the truth?
14 A. He would not.
15 Q. If Mr. Babic said that he did not have a
16 drinking problem, would he be telling the truth?
17 MR. TURONE: Objection, Your Honour, to this
18 question. It's not relevant.
19 MS. McMURREY: It is relevant for impeachment
20 purposes. He took the stand here and said under oath
21 that he did not have a drinking problem. As far as
22 credibility goes, I believe it's important. And if he
23 is his neighbour and he knows, then he should be able
24 to answer.
25 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, Your Honour,
2 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: He has only stated Mirko
3 Babic's drinking problem is that he is his neighbour.
4 MS. McMURREY: I'm sorry, Your Honour, I
5 can't hear you.
6 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: The only reason why he
7 can give that evidence is because he is his neighbour.
8 MS. McMURREY: Because he knows Mirko Babic
10 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Yes, you can ask him
11 that question, if you like.
12 MS. McMURREY: Thank you.
13 Q. So if Mr. Babic said he did not have a
14 drinking problem, would he be telling the truth?
15 A. He would not be telling.
16 Q. I would like to show you another photograph
17 with the assistance of the usher now, please.
18 THE REGISTRAR: Defence Document D 75/4.
19 MS. McMURREY:
20 Q. Mr. Salihovic, do you know that man in that
21 photograph? I know that it's not very clear, but can
22 you pick him out?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. And who is that man?
25 A. Yes. May I start with my answer?
1 Q. Yes.
2 A. Yes, this is Branko Babic, born in
3 Bjelovcina. His father is Jovo and mother, Stana. He
4 lived in the Village of Homolde most recently. He
5 worked in the UNIS's company, Igman in Konjic.
6 Q. And, Mr. Gotovac, did he suffer from any
7 physical problem before the war?
8 A. I am not aware of his having any physical
9 problems before the war, with the exception of
10 something. I don't know, he had some kind of hernia or
12 MR. TURONE: I beg your pardon, just to
13 clarify, which Mr. Gotovac you are talking about,
14 because he is talking about Branko Babic.
15 MS. McMURREY: Yes, I need to clear that up.
16 Q. Are you talking about Branko Babic or Branko
18 MR. TURONE: I am afraid she's
19 cross-examining her own witness, Your Honour.
20 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: The transcript will
21 clarify which of them.
22 MS. McMURREY: I believe the witness is a bit
24 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: I don't think so. You
25 asked him whether he knew Branko Babic.
1 MS. McMURREY: Then I asked the wrong
2 question and I apologise.
3 Q. Do you know Branko Gotovac?
4 A. I do know Branko Gotovac, yes, and I was
5 talking about Branko Gotovac.
6 Q. Thank you very much. And have you known
7 Branko Gotovac for a long time?
8 A. Yes, we grew up together in the village where
9 I was born also, except that he was a bit older than I
10 was -- than I am.
11 Q. Were you the same age as some of his younger
13 A. Yes, maybe we are one year apart or so.
14 Q. And this hernia that you talked about that
15 Mr. Gotovac had, had he had that for a long period of
16 time prior to 1992?
17 A. I believe so. Yes, because that condition
18 was in their family.
19 Q. Can you explain what you mean by that
20 condition was in their family?
21 A. How do you mean? His brothers had it and his
22 father had it. I knew his father because he was killed
23 and his father was killed. He worked in the company
24 and he was killed when some explosive was set on fire.
25 That was in the 60s sometime.
1 Q. With the assistance of the usher, I would
2 like to show Mr. Salihovic a photograph that's already
3 in evidence in this Court and the registry has said I
4 may have the wrong exhibit number.
5 THE REGISTRAR: Defence Document D 76/4.
6 MS. McMURREY:
7 Q. Now, Mr. Salihovic, do you recognise that
8 condition that you see on this man?
9 A. Yes, his brother had a similar kind of
11 Q. Is that the hernia that you were aware of
12 before 1992?
13 A. As I said, it was in their family.
14 Q. And were you able to see that condition with
15 the family while they were swimming, et cetera?
1 A. Yes, I would go swimming with his brothers,
2 because they were around my age, maybe a couple of
3 years younger or older, so I would see these physical
4 conditions. And if you will excuse me for my extending
5 this, one of his brothers, supposedly for that reason,
6 did not have any children. But I don't know if that
7 could be a reason for it.
8 MS. McMURREY: Your Honour, I would like to
9 offer this photograph into evidence again. It is in
10 evidence, I think, yes.
11 MR. TURONE: May I see it, please?
12 MS. McMURREY: I would love for Mr. Turone to
13 take a look at it. It was offered into evidence under
14 the Prosecution witness Branko Gotovac, but I don't
15 know what the exhibit is.
16 I ask that it be admitted into evidence for
17 the purpose of impeachment.
18 JUDGE JAN: It's already in evidence.
19 MS. McMURREY: Thank you very much.
20 MS. McMURREY:
21 Q. Mr. Salihovic, Branko Gotovac was aware that
22 Mirko Babic had burned his leg long before the war,
23 wasn't he?
24 JUDGE JAN: How does he know?
25 MS. McMURREY:
1 Q. Did Branko Gotovac know Mirko Babic well?
2 A. Yes, he did know him. I believe that they
3 are about the same age. They knew each other as young
4 men, they went to school together and they knew each
6 Q. And were some of the other people present at
7 the accident with the forestry materials, were those
8 related to Branko Gotovac?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. And so, if Branko Gotovac told this Tribunal
11 that this hernia was a result of beating in Celebici,
12 would he have been telling the truth?
13 A. He would not.
14 MS. McMURREY: I pass the witness. Your
16 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Any cross-examination of
17 this witness?
18 MS. RESIDOVIC: Your Honours, we have no
19 questions of this witness. Thank you.
20 MR.OLUJIC: The defence for the second
21 accused, Mr. Mucic, also has no questions of this
23 MR. KARABDIC: Your Honours, the defence of
24 Mr. Hazim Delic has no questions of this witness.
25 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Any cross-examination by
1 the Prosecution?
2 MR. TURONE: Yes, Your Honour thank you, just
3 a few questions.
4 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: You may proceed, please.
5 MR. TURONE:
6 Q. Good morning Mr. Salihovic, my name is Turone
7 and I'm going to ask you some questions for the
9 Concerning this list of inhabitants of
10 Bjelovcina you were talking about a moment ago, did you
11 see personally all these people with arms in their
13 A. I did see these people, because they were
14 there, and I was there, and I lived there, and I affirm
16 Q. You mean you can, could see all of them with
17 arms in their, in their hands? Is that your testimony?
18 Personally saw them?
19 A. What I have written down I would not have
20 written down had I not seen it.
21 Q. Okay, let's come now to the injury of
22 Mr. Mirko Babic, this injury supposedly which took
23 place before 1992. Could you say when was that, which
25 A. Maybe sometime around 1980, maybe even later.
1 Maybe before, but the important thing is he received
2 that injury before the war.
3 Q. Yes, but I would like to know approximately
4 the year in which it happened.
5 A. I believe somewhere around '80, '81,
6 somewhere around there.
7 Q. And this incident around 1980 or 1981, could
8 you say who were the persons present there who could
9 see the incident?
10 A. There were other people from the village
11 there, there were other people there. Because this was
12 a joint effort, it was not something that was done by
13 one or two persons, it would be 10, 15, even 20 people
14 involved. So, people present there who were even
15 involved Rajko Gotovac, Savo Gotovac, Marijan Rajic who
16 was a forester born in the village of Javorik in the
17 municipality of Konjic and he had permanent residence
18 in the village of Celebici, also in the Municipality of
19 Konjic, and he was a forester by trade.
20 Q. At that time around 1980 or 1981, what was
21 your position, your profession?
22 A. At that time I worked in the Igman Company of
23 the UNIS conglomerate, and I worked in the service
25 Q. Is that correct that you were not present at
1 this incident you are talking about? Is that correct?
2 A. No.
3 Q. And you said you couldn't see the
4 consequences of the injury after the bandage was taken
5 off; but could you see the injury before the bandage
6 was put on the leg of Mr. Babic?
7 A. I did not.
8 Q. So, am I correct that you do not know exactly
9 which part of the right leg was injured and in which
10 way; is that correct?
11 A. It was under his knee. That is where I saw
12 the bandage on him.
13 Q. So, you only saw a bandage under the knee; is
14 that correct?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. I'm coming now to the hernia of Mr. Gotovac.
17 You said you had occasion to go swimming with his
18 brother and his brother had also a problem like this.
19 Is that your testimony?
20 A. Yes. Yes.
21 Q. So, going swimming with the brother of
22 Mr. Gotovac, or Branko Gotovac, you could see the
23 hernia of the brother of Mr. Branko Gotovac; is that
25 A. Correct, yes.
1 Q. And you say this is a problem which affected
2 the entire family, more or less; is that correct?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. How many members of the family did this
5 problem affect, if you know?
6 A. Three members. Three members, and if we
7 include the father, it would be four.
8 Q. Could you see half naked, let's say, all of
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Which occasions?
12 A. On the occasion of swimming or playing ball,
13 they would strip to the waist and they would go
15 Q. So, it is not correct what you said before,
16 that you went swimming only with the brother of
17 Branko Gotovac; is that your testimony now?
18 A. I said with the brothers, with the neighbours,
19 with the children, we would all go together.
20 MR. TURONE: I have no further questions,
21 Your Honour.
22 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Any re-examination of
23 this witness?
24 MS. McMURREY: No re-examination, Your
1 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Thank you very much,
2 Mr. Salihovic, you are discharged.
3 THE WITNESS: Thank you, Your Honours, for
4 having invited me here to give my contribution, to the
5 extent that I can.
6 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Any other witnesses?
7 MS. McMURREY: Your Honour, out of the nine
8 witnesses that we expected Sunday night two arrived.
9 And the Victim and Witnesses is in the Sarajevo airport
10 right now at two o'clock to supposedly bring three more
11 witnesses tonight. So I'm asking the Court's
12 indulgence. If they arrive tonight I will most
13 certainly put them on tomorrow. And Victim and
14 Witnesses has assured me that they're trying their best
15 to get them.
16 They were all notified, they were all willing
17 to come, but for some reason they didn't get the
18 authorisation from their commanding officer.
19 Ms. Vividovic from the Bosnian Embassy sent it to the
20 Ministry of Defence, the Ministry of Defence sent it to
21 their units, but on Sunday they said they didn't have
22 it. They now are aware that they have the
23 authorisation to come and they should be picking them
24 up at the airport in Sarajevo at two o'clock today.
25 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: All you are saying is
1 that you no longer have any witnesses for today.
2 MS. McMURREY: That is correct, Your Honour,
3 the bottom line.
4 JUDGE JAN: That's only three, what about the
5 other four?
6 MS. McMURREY: The other four we can't get.
7 They were not under subpoena. I feel that if I issue a
8 subpoena right now for them, they may show up and cost
9 the Tribunal the same kind of money the others did and
10 not want to testify the way our interviews went last
11 month when we were in Konjic. So we're not going to
12 try to subpoena them at this point.
13 But I would like these three witnesses that
14 are willing to come, and they have the authorisation,
15 and I feel certain they will be here soon.
16 JUDGE JAN: They are serving in the armed
18 MS. McMURREY: Yes, Your Honour. They are
19 all stationed in the units for the Federation of
20 Bosnia-Herzegovina Army right now.
21 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: I suppose this is the
22 end of the proceedings for today. So, the Trial
23 Chamber will rise and we will reassemble at 10 a.m.
24 tomorrow morning.
25 --- Whereupon hearing adjourned at 12.40
1 p.m. to be reconvened on the 22nd
2 day of July, 1998 at 10.00 a.m.