Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 13800

1 Wednesday, 17 July 2002

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 [The accused Naletilic not present]

5 --- Upon commencing at 2.18 p.m.

6 JUDGE LIU: Call the case, please, Madam Registrar.

7 THE REGISTRAR: Good afternoon, Your Honours. This is case number

8 IT-98-34-T, the Prosecutor versus Naletilic and Martinovic.

9 JUDGE LIU: Thank you very much. Before we have the testimony of

10 the witness, this Trial Chamber would like to deal with some procedural

11 matters.

12 We are seized of a motion for the closed session for the second

13 witness on the list. I would like to know whether there is any objections

14 from the Prosecution side. Yes, Mr. Prosecutor?

15 MR. PORIOUVAEV: Your Honour, since the witness number 2 is

16 appointed to me to cross-examine, I would like you to consider one thing.

17 Sometime ago, we had some precedent here in the Defence case already, when

18 the same or identical motion was filed, just to have a closed, completely

19 closed session. It seems to me that that practice proved to be very good,

20 from one point of view we have all the range of protective measures and

21 from the second point of view, we still have a sort of transparent

22 proceedings. So this is our Prosecutor's opinion.

23 JUDGE LIU: Well, as for this specific witness, are you for it or

24 you oppose it?

25 MR. PORIOUVAEV: As for this specific witness, I back up your

Page 13801

1 previous precedent. I think that protective measures such as voice, face

2 distortion and pseudonym would be enough, and at some point we can go into

3 private session without any problems.

4 JUDGE LIU: Thank you very much. Well, as a principle, I believe

5 that all the trials should be conducted in open session, in public

6 session, which is the right of the accused, and it's the job for this

7 Trial Chamber to guarantee that right was not damaged in any way. But in

8 this case, the motion was filed by the Defence counsel and out of an

9 abundance of caution, as well as with the understanding that the motion

10 for the closed session should only be granted in a reasonable and

11 extraordinary circumstances, we grant this motion for the closed session

12 for this witness. But I hope in the future the Defence counsel will take

13 into consideration the right of your client for a public hearing, which

14 means that the motion for the closed session should only be granted in

15 extraordinary circumstances.

16 Yes. Could we have the witness, please?

17 Yes, Mr. Krsnik?

18 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Your Honours. Just

19 two things that I would like to inform you with. First of all my client

20 is not here. He is not feeling well. He is not going to attend today's

21 hearing. But he has given me his power of attorney, signed power of

22 attorney to represent him. Another thing. Today at 6.00, all of us

23 counsels have a meeting to finalise the establishment of the bar, of a

24 bar, with this Tribunal, and I believe that we should all attend this

25 meeting, because it is happening after seven years. This meeting is at

Page 13802

1 6.00, at 1800 hours today. So I could kindly ask the Chamber to give us

2 the grant of leave, because I believe that all of us counsel should be

3 present. So if you agree, I'm kindly asking you if we could finish today

4 at 6.00 as to enable us to attend this very important meeting for all of

5 us Defence counsel. Thank you very much.

6 JUDGE LIU: Well, I'm not quite familiar with the procedures for

7 this meeting as well as for this bar council. Is it necessary for all the

8 Defence counsel to participate in that meeting? I understand that each

9 team has a lead counsel as well as a co-counsel to represent their

10 clients. Is it necessary for both of you to attend that meeting, whether

11 had involves any vote or something like this? I'm not quite sure. Maybe

12 you could enlighten me, Mr. Krsnik.

13 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Certainly, Your Honours. I am not

14 too familiar with the proceedings. The only thing I know is that a list

15 of the Defence counsel's, members of the bar, counsel, will be made. All

16 of us will have to sign the admission form, so in this case, it doesn't

17 really matter whether somebody is counsel or a co-counsel because a list

18 will be put together of all the Defence counsels who represent clients

19 before this Tribunal. This is how I understood the invitation to this

20 meeting today at 6.00. But maybe during the break, we can obtain some

21 additional information and we can shed some more light on what is going on

22 during the meeting, and maybe you can assist us with that. If it is

23 really not important for all of the counsels to be present, then only one

24 of us will go and the other will remain. In any case, I thank you for

25 your understanding.

Page 13803

1 JUDGE LIU: Yes, of course, during the break, I think this Trial

2 Chamber also will make some inquiry about the nature and the procedures of

3 this meeting and later on, we will make a decision on this matter.

4 As you understand, we are a little bit behind schedule because we

5 are planning to have five witnesses this week, but now we only have one,

6 unfinished yet so we have to seize every opportunity to conduct our

7 hearings. But as always, we'll give your motion a favourable

8 consideration.

9 Mr. Seric, before the witness comes into the room would you please

10 brief me on how long you're going to take?

11 MR. SERIC: [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Your Honour. I am

12 hoping to take another 45 minutes, not more than that.

13 JUDGE LIU: Thank you.

14 MR. SERIC: [Interpretation] And I am convinced that we will be

15 able to adhere to the schedule of five witnesses this week.

16 JUDGE LIU: You are very optimistic.

17 MR. SERIC: [Interpretation] I've been that way all my life, Your

18 Honour.

19 JUDGE LIU: Thank you very much.

20 Could we have the witness, please?

21 [The witness entered court]

22 WITNESS: JADRANKO MARTINOVIC [Resumed]

23 [Witness answered through interpreter]

24 JUDGE LIU: Good afternoon, Witness.

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Your Honours.

Page 13804

1 JUDGE LIU: You may sit down. Are you ready to start?

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I'm ready.

3 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Seric.

4 MR. SERIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

5 Examined by Mr. Seric: [Continued]

6 Q. Can I please ask the usher or the technical booth to lower the

7 ELMO so I can have visual communication with my witness? Thank you.

8 Q. Mr. Martinovic, did you have a good rest?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Mr. Martinovic, do you know Halil Ajanic, also known as Lopata?

11 MR. SERIC: [Interpretation] [In English] Another microphone.

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. What do you know about him specifically? Let me repeat the

14 question, or maybe you can start giving your answer already. The question

15 was: What do you know specifically about Halil Ajanic, also known as

16 Lopata?

17 A. I know -- I've known Halil Ajanic, Lopata all my life. And as

18 I've already said, I'm of technical profession and I very often work on

19 various buildings, just like other people in my walk of life, and wherever

20 there is a building site, he will be somewhere near. He always tries to

21 make some money. He is unemployed, and he tries to make money. I know

22 him as a person who drinks, who is an alcoholic, very messy person, sloppy

23 person, a person who has been in treatment for psychiatric disorders on

24 several occasions. But I also know him as a person who is always around,

25 in town. You can see him everywhere, at all times. He's always there.

Page 13805

1 And if not him, then one of the members of his family, because the family

2 had a lot of members.

3 Q. Do you know anything about the incident when his son was killed?

4 A. What I know, I heard on the street from other people, and at the

5 child's burial, at the child's funeral. So I do know some things.

6 Q. What do you know?

7 A. Very little, as a matter of fact. His son found a grenade,

8 whether he played with it, whether the bomb -- there was something wrong

9 with the grenade, I don't know, but I know that he got killed. It was a

10 very sad story, but I think that Halil had six or seven children, I don't

11 want to be wrong on that, and I know that he could barely feed them, let

12 alone bury them, and then we raised some funds to help him bury that child

13 who had gotten killed.

14 Q. Do you know where this happened, where did this explosion take

15 place, in which this boy got killed?

16 A. I don't know exactly, but I believe it was close to the base, in a

17 private house, or in an apartment inhabited by this soldier. I really

18 don't know.

19 Q. Do you know who was using this apartment?

20 A. If you mean who was in the apartment, I can tell you that it was a

21 soldier, a foreigner, a German national, I believe. I'm not sure of that

22 but I know that he was a foreigner.

23 Q. Do you know anything about the relationship between Vinko

24 Martinovic and Halil Ajanic?

25 A. Yes. There was no particular relationship to talk about, but he

Page 13806

1 always had a better relationship with those who would give him some work

2 to do, who would give him some money, a few coins. Halil was always

3 around. He was always to be seen. Halil was Halil. And that's the long

4 and short of it. He was just a joker, and he was always there. He was

5 always around.

6 Q. Did he perform any works during the war, either for Vinko or for

7 you?

8 A. I don't know whether I have understood you well. Halil could not

9 perform any works. He did not have any tools to perform works with. He

10 could load things, unload things. He could clean things on the condition

11 that he was sober. He was always around. I don't exclude the possibility

12 that he may have done something. He was always, when he was around we

13 would call him to give us a hand and we would give him some small change

14 in return.

15 Q. Do you know that Halil Ajanic was brought as a detainee into the

16 Vinko Skrobo unit?

17 A. No.

18 Q. Would you be familiar with the reason for which Halil Ajanic would

19 testify against your brother, Vinko?

20 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Scott?

21 MR. SCOTT: Mr. President, I think that's a question too far. I

22 think that counsel's properly asked background facts upon which arguments

23 can be made but I think this to ask him to state the opinion of what's in

24 Mr. Ajanic's mind is too much.

25 JUDGE LIU: Yes. It's kind of speculation. Maybe you could

Page 13807

1 rephrase your question in some other way.

2 MR. SERIC: [Interpretation]

3 Q. Are you familiar with any circumstance or any event which would

4 instigate Halil Ajanic to testify in this case on the side of the

5 Prosecution?

6 A. Absolutely not. Only if he bears a grudge, if he did not help him

7 enough.

8 Q. Where were you, Mr. Martinovic, personally, on the 17th of

9 September, 1993?

10 A. I don't know.

11 Q. Do you not recall that date?

12 A. The date as a date, it must have happened, but I don't know where

13 I was.

14 Q. If I remind you that on that date, there was a large-scale

15 conflict in Mostar between the BH Army - we are talking about September,

16 1993 - between the Army of Bosnia and Herzegovina on the one side and the

17 Croatian Defence Council on the other side, would you be able to remember?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Where were you at the time? Did you participate in the war

20 operations?

21 A. I apologise. I did not know the date, but I was in Mostar on that

22 day. It was a day like any other in Mostar, but there was a lot of -- a

23 lot more shooting. Let me put it this way: It was a lot noisier than on

24 any other day. So it was a real war. And nothing else was going on in

25 the city. There were more ambulance vehicles and it was a lot more noise.

Page 13808

1 There was a lot more of those things which happened during the war.

2 Q. Where were you on that particular day? In town?

3 A. Yes, I was in town.

4 Q. Were you in any way involved in any of the actions?

5 A. No.

6 Q. Do you know where Vinko was on that day?

7 A. Of course; he was on the front line.

8 Q. Do you have any personal knowledge about the fact that, in that

9 operation, war detainees, prisoners of war, were used as human shields on

10 any section of that front line?

11 A. No.

12 Q. Are you familiar with the allegation in the indictment, and you

13 did say that you had an opportunity to read it, in the papers, that on

14 that particular day, on the 17th of September, 1993, in the Vinko Skrobo

15 unit, prisoners of war were used as human shields alongside a tank and

16 that they were given wooden rifles for that purpose?

17 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Scott?

18 MR. SCOTT: Mr. President, just a point of clarification. It's

19 not clear to me, and I don't know, perhaps the counsel's satisfied with

20 the answer, I'm not sure, but there have been several questions and

21 answers over the last few minutes and the last one, I'm sorry, I can't

22 seem to get the -- the question at line ten was, "Do you have any personal

23 knowledge about the fact that in that operation, war detainees, prisoners

24 of war, were used as human shields on any section of that front line?"

25 The answer is, "No," so I assume the answer means he has no personal

Page 13809

1 knowledge one way or the another other. He has no knowledge about the

2 event at all. Is that correct?

3 JUDGE LIU: Yes. Well, Mr. Seric, would you please make some

4 clarification by asking a question to this witness? Because "No" could be

5 interpreted in two ways.

6 MR. SERIC: [Interpretation]

7 Q. Your answer, when you said "No" to my question, could mean either

8 that you do not have any knowledge or it can also mean that prisoners of

9 war were not used as human shields. Can you please clarify the meaning of

10 your negative answer.

11 A. Are you now asking me about the date of the 17th of September, or

12 generally?

13 Q. The question is relative to that particular date. So

14 mid-September, 1993, or more specifically, the 17th of September.

15 A. Before I answer, I would like to say to this Trial Chamber,

16 although it may sound a bit -- this was a day with a lot more shooting

17 than usual. I don't know whether it started in the morning or in the

18 afternoon, but it went on throughout the day. Somebody was playing war

19 games but the day was not so much different than any other days, to my

20 mind. Maybe it was different for the fighters on the front line. I don't

21 know if anything special was happening on the front line. I don't know.

22 And the answer to your question whether people were used as human shields,

23 the answer is no, and I don't have any knowledge of that.

24 Q. I will go back now to my other question. Have you been informed

25 about the allegation in the indictment that that day, prisoners were used

Page 13810

1 as human shields and that they were given wooden rifles? And did that

2 happen precisely in the unit under your brother's command?

3 A. Yes. I'm aware of that. I've read it.

4 Q. Do you know what really happened that day, the 17th of September,

5 1993, on the front line, in front of the health centre?

6 A. No, I do not.

7 Q. Did you ever talk with Vinko Martinovic about those wooden rifles?

8 MR. SCOTT: Your Honour my objection again. Let me object again

9 to the nature of this particular testimony and let me amplify what I

10 said yesterday. Your Honour, it would only be too easy for any accused in

11 this case to speak to a friend or relative and give him all sorts of

12 information on which that witness would then come and testify. I think

13 that's improper. We object.

14 JUDGE LIU: Well, Mr. Seric, I think yesterday we already ruled on

15 this issue. To this witness, we only want to hear what he personally saw

16 and experienced during that time. And you understand that this witness

17 has a special relationship with your accused. So it seems to us there is

18 no evidential value if the witness tells what his brother told him about

19 this matter. I mean, this witness came here as a witness. He could tell

20 us what his personal experience is, but not what the accused told him,

21 because we put very little weight on this kind of evidence.

22 MR. SERIC: [Interpretation] I realise that, Your Honours, but I

23 also realise that the accused would find himself in the same situation if

24 he were to testify in this Court but I will withdraw the question.

25 Q. Do you have any explanation for the reason to attribute this

Page 13811

1 incident to Vinko Martinovic?

2 A. Well, I don't know whether it is a sound explanation but I do have

3 one. When this indictment was published --

4 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Scott.

5 MR. SCOTT: Excuse me, Mr. President, the witness has already said

6 now at least twice he has no knowledge of these events at all, at all. I

7 think this inquiry is over. We object.

8 JUDGE LIU: Well, but the question is that, "Do you have any

9 explanations for the reason to attribute this incident to Vinko

10 Martinovic." That's a different matter.

11 MR. SCOTT: Your Honour what basis can there be for any

12 explanation on matters on which this witness has said he has no personal

13 knowledge?

14 JUDGE LIU: But this witness lived there. He has his own

15 perspectives on certain matters. We would like to hear the explanation

16 from this witness, whatever it may be.

17 MR. SCOTT: Mr. President, I would ask, then, that before the

18 answer be given that the foundation for the explanation be explained. Is

19 it again based on what his brother told him? We are right back to where

20 we were. So if the if he's going to be allowed to give an explanation,

21 Your Honour, the Prosecution ask respectfully that he first indicate the

22 foundation for basis on which that explanation is based.

23 [Trial Chamber confers]

24 JUDGE LIU: Well, Witness, you may tell us what is your opinion on

25 this issue, not any information told by your brother.

Page 13812

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Sir, I understand that, thank you.

2 MR. SERIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, let me try to meet the

3 requests of the Defence and the Chamber. The answer that we expect to

4 hear from the witness, may I ask the witness a couple of leading questions

5 in order to steer him in the proper direction to give us this

6 explanation?

7 JUDGE LIU: Well, Mr. Seric, I think you asked the question and

8 the witness is ready to answer it. Let's hear the witness first.

9 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I apologise, but

10 Mr. Seric did not say leading question. He said "questions to lay the

11 foundation." Mr. Seric did not say, "A couple of leading questions."

12 JUDGE LIU: I see.

13 MR. SERIC: [Interpretation] I would never say that. But never

14 mind, let the witness say.

15 JUDGE LIU: Yes.

16 MR. SERIC: [Interpretation] Thank you very much. And I'm sorry

17 for the speed with which ideas are exchanged here.

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] After all this, I think I'm the most

19 confused of all. So when this indictment became public, when one could

20 read it in all the press and see it on television, those wooden rifles

21 drew most of attention of all because that was something strange,

22 something out of the ordinary, for many reasons, and I apologise to the

23 Court, but every person that I talked about it with and then the Tribunal

24 was being called something which lacks seriousness, which really lacks

25 sufficient gravity. If anything like that could be put in the

Page 13813

1 indictment. All the more so, as a few months ago, and I cannot say

2 exactly but the Court can find did in the press or somewhere because at

3 that time a similar or identical incident was already being mentioned as

4 something that had happened in the war between the Serbs and the Muslims.

5 So that this is discussed, this has become a pet topic, but which has

6 rather bad ring to it, and which could play a wrong part in the

7 indictment, in the accusations against Vinko Martinovic or somebody else.

8 So that is what I -- why I think it happened and why that became part of

9 the indictment. But I think that this is just something which is not of

10 good quality, something which is semi-manufacture.

11 MR. SERIC: [Interpretation].

12 Q. Do you have any knowledge why would Vinko Martinovic be sacrificed

13 and surrendered to The Hague?

14 A. I can tell you about the sequence of events and it is up to you

15 then to decide whether I'm making guesses or whether this is specific

16 knowledge. His Honour is right, he is my brother, and perhaps -- but all

17 these stories, all these gossip, all these tales, now we know everything

18 about Vinko Martinovic more or less, and conditionally speaking he has no

19 pedigree, I mean military or political and he became a target for the

20 press in Bosnia and Herzegovina and the Republic of Croatia and I mean the

21 press. The front pages, second pages, and so on and so forth. He and

22 his unit, and at some point, a wave of arrests started in the town of

23 Mostar. Before that, something happened that I believe you are all aware

24 of, and that was the -- an attempt against Mr. Hans Koschnik, High

25 Representative of the European Union in Mostar, in the Ero Hotel in Mostar

Page 13814

1 where his residence and his office were. So that day some unpleasant

2 things happened. There were stoning, some vehicles were set on fire. And

3 there was an attempt against Mr. Koschnik. And they came to me to ask me

4 where my brother was. "Why do you want him?" They said they had located

5 him -- they had identified him as the man who organised the attack on

6 Mr. Koschnik. That is what they said. Vinko was in Split that day.

7 Vinko had gone there to visit his wife, who was in the hospital, because

8 she miscarried. So I used my cell phone to call Vinko and this gentleman

9 who came to my place to look for him, I gave -- I handed over the phone so

10 that he could talk with him personally. And of course, he was pretty

11 embarrassed. So they started saying to me things like apologise, sorry,

12 we didn't know, sorry, mistake. If, that is one can call it a mistake, to

13 call him the organiser of the attack on Mr. Hans Koschnik, and he wasn't

14 in the town of Mostar at all. 2.500 men and Vinko Martinovic is

15 presumably their leader. After Mr. Koschnik was succeeded by another High

16 Representative and the first thing he did, he invited Vinko Martinovic for

17 an interview, to tell him that he would not tolerate any organised attacks

18 on him and his team. And Vinko, being the man that he is, says, "I have

19 nothing to tell you about this, because I'm not the man." However, it is

20 a nice and clear example of how a particular situation can be created and

21 how the accusations are directed at one man. And the same time, in a part

22 of Mostar police, arrests are started of people who were in the war, that

23 is Vinko, and I'm giving you firsthand knowledge. In the morning, at half

24 past 4.00, a friend came to wake me up and tell me that the evening before

25 that, four of Vinko's friends had been arrested, that they had been beaten

Page 13815

1 in the prison all night long, and could I do anything, could I go there?

2 Because otherwise, they would be beaten to death if that went on.

3 I waited for 7.00 in the morning to strike. Then I went to the

4 Mostar police, where I was told that that was not true, and that they were

5 not there. After checking with a friend who had informed me originally,

6 whether they had indeed been taken in, I then went to the mayor of Mostar,

7 because I had nobody else to go, Ivan Prskalo, and I asked him to check

8 what was going on. And as he was checking what was going on, he then

9 provided me with some incoherent answer, but meanwhile my friends brought

10 a doctor called Meskic, a Muslim, who at that night was -- went to the

11 prison to attend those beaten.

12 After that, I went to the HDZ Presidency in Mostar, and for me,

13 that was the supreme authority at the time. And asked that the necessary

14 measures be taken, that people -- so that people wouldn't be taken in and

15 beaten for reasons known only to them.

16 Now, I wish to emphasise, in particular, after I was admitted, one

17 hour and a half after that, a meeting was held of, I don't know whether a

18 narrow body or a broad body of that party, and there was a major quarrel

19 there, because obviously half of the people knew what was going on and the

20 other half didn't. Four days later, the first person was set free,

21 released from prison, beaten up, of course, scared, he dared not even tell

22 me good morning, let alone what had happened there. 12 days later,

23 another person was released, darker than this microphone, that is black

24 and blue all over, who said that the interrogation had only, and one

25 subject only, and that was Vinko Martinovic. Paper on the table, write

Page 13816

1 down all that you know about Vinko Martinovic.

2 A month later, a third person came out, but as it all went on,

3 other people were being taken away for a day, two or three, and this whole

4 circus lasted for months. None of the charges have -- not been filed

5 against any one of those people, known of them have been sentenced, none

6 of them are in prison. However, none of them has a passport and not one

7 of them was ever given the explanation for his detention. And they all

8 had one and the same question: Vinko Martinovic, Stela, as they referred

9 to him, as his pet name. So it all tells me that there was some major

10 play involved concerning Vinko Martinovic and I claim that Vinko

11 Martinovic was a matter of a trade between Zagreb and the International

12 Tribunal, or at least such an attempt was made.

13 Q. Was Vinko Martinovic different from other soldiers in the HVO?

14 And commanders of other units of the same rank?

15 A. Well, physically, of course, yes. As for his possibilities to do

16 something, no. However, there was a huge difference. There was a huge

17 difference. He would not suffer lies. He would not suffer insincerity

18 and it was the kind of his attitude that made him different from others.

19 And as for his command responsibility, I guess if he had any, where he

20 was, I think that it was just as anybody else's neither bigger nor

21 smaller.

22 Q. And finally Mr. Martinovic s there anything that you would like to

23 add, something that I perhaps have forgotten to ask you and that you would

24 like the Court to know?

25 A. Of course, when I defend, when I talk about my brother, then my

Page 13817

1 time is more than short, and I suppose when the Prosecutor comes, then it

2 will look too long, but there is one thing I wish to say. If I've

3 understood correctly His Honour, my testimony does not have much probative

4 value because I'm a brother and I can understand that. However, I wish to

5 say the following and I hope it will not be forgotten, if possible. Vinko

6 Martinovic, for the duration of the war, had never any political or any

7 other support for a single day for a single minute. Vinko Martinovic

8 joined the war, the first one and the second one, out of his conviction,

9 not for, mathematical reasons. Do not let Vinko Martinovic pay for

10 mathematics, please. Thank you.

11 MR. SERIC: [Interpretation] I have concluded my direct

12 examination, Mr. President.

13 JUDGE LIU: Yes. Cross-examination, Mr. Scott.

14 Cross-examined by Mr. Scott:

15 Q. Good afternoon, sir.

16 A. Good afternoon.

17 THE INTERPRETER: Could the other witness's microphone be switched

18 on, please?

19 MR. SCOTT:

20 Q. Sir, in connection with some of your answers just this afternoon,

21 I'll start with those, then go back to yesterday, this child of

22 Mr. Ajanic, who was killed with a hand grenade, as part of all the things

23 you heard, sir, did you did you ever hear that it was one of your

24 brother's men who pulled the pin of this hand grenade and tossed or rolled

25 it to this child as if it was a toy?

Page 13818

1 A. Absolutely not.

2 Q. You never heard that?

3 A. No.

4 Q. In connection with the attack on the life of Hans Koschnik, the

5 international representative in Mostar at the time, can you give the

6 Chamber -- I don't think during any of that, you gave the Chamber a date.

7 Can you tell the Chamber approximately when that was?

8 A. I wouldn't be able to tell you that, but this incident did happen,

9 and the date, I can't tell you. That is really my weak point.

10 Q. Well, surely you can give us some estimation. It wasn't in 1993,

11 was it?

12 A. Late that year, I think.

13 Q. Late 1993? Is that your testimony?

14 A. That is not my testimony. I'm not claiming it.

15 Q. Well, can you give us your best idea of the event when

16 Mr. Koschnik was attacked?

17 A. I'm not getting the interpretation.

18 MR. SCOTT: The witness says he's not getting interpretation, Your

19 Honour.

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I didn't have the interpretation.

21 JUDGE LIU: Well, maybe we have to check the channels. Can you

22 hear me, Witness?

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I can.

24 JUDGE LIU: Now, Mr. Scott, would you please repeat your

25 question?

Page 13819

1 MR. SCOTT: Yes.

2 Q. Sir, give us the best estimate of the date of the attack on

3 Mr. Koschnik that you can?

4 A. I think it was towards the end of 1993.

5 Q. Is it correct, then to say, sir, as you said a moment ago, that

6 you have a poor memory of dates?

7 A. Not all, not all dates.

8 Q. And can you tell us please, who was it that you said apologised to

9 you about the allegation that your brother had organised the attack on

10 Mr. Koschnik?

11 A. Yes, I can.

12 Q. Please do. Please give us the name of the person who apologised

13 to you.

14 A. An official of the security service called SIS, at least that is

15 what it was called then. His name is Franjo Primorac, and he supposedly

16 got that information in his agency.

17 Q. All right. So just so the record is clear, it was no

18 representative or member of the international community who apologised to

19 you, but it was a member of the Bosnian Croat secret police who told you,

20 supposedly that they apologised, that someone apologised to you?

21 A. That's what I said.

22 Q. Had you ever had any other dealings with the Bosnian Croat secret

23 police or intelligence service, SIS, apart from that one occasion?

24 A. Could you tell me what you mean by dealings?

25 Q. Have you ever had any meetings or discussions with anyone from the

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Page 13821

1 Bosnian Croat intelligence service, apart from this one occasion that

2 you've just told us about?

3 A. You mean about my brother?

4 Q. About anything, sir. I'm just asking you, you said this man, the

5 leader of the Croat intelligence service, Mr. Franjo Primorac came to you,

6 you say, and apologised to you about allegations made about your brother.

7 My question to you, sir, is did you have -- have you ever had any other

8 dealings with the Bosnian Croat intelligence service?

9 A. You're misinterpreting it. He first affirmed that Vinko

10 Martinovic was one of the organisers and when we established that he was

11 not in Mostar, then he apologised.

12 Q. All right. My question to you, sir, if you listen to my question,

13 please, had you, other than that occasion, have you ever been had any

14 other dealings with the Bosnian Croat [RealTime transcript read in error

15 "Bosnian Croat service"] intelligence service?

16 A. No.

17 Q. You have not had -- your answer then, includes that you've not had

18 any contact with any such intelligence service in connection with the

19 Defence of your brother against the charges here?

20 A. No.

21 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Your Honours?

22 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Krsnik?

23 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] I'm following the transcript and I'm

24 listening to the questions, and the question in English and I see the

25 transcript it says, "Bosnian Croat service." I'd really like to know what

Page 13822

1 is that Bosnian Croat service. Could our learned friend be so kind as to

2 explain it to us?

3 JUDGE LIU: Well, if the witness and the Prosecutor both know what

4 it means, I don't think that it's necessary to explain it. I don't think

5 in this case, that the Prosecution is misleading the witness.

6 MR. SCOTT:

7 Q. Sir, just so I make sure because of the questions raised now and

8 possible of possible language differences, let me make sure I understand

9 your testimony now. To the very best of your knowledge, sir, you're

10 telling the Chamber that no representative or agent or operative of the --

11 of any Bosnian Croat secret police or intelligence service has been

12 involved in assisting your brother's defence against the charges here?

13 A. Sir, please, you say yourself, service. It has a prefix in front

14 of that name. It's secret service. And this is not my environment. This

15 is not my milieu. In the preparation of the defence of my brother, I

16 believe that a lot of people have been involved. Were any

17 of them from the service or not, please don't ask me. I believe that your

18 question is hypothetical. I do not know that I have spoken to, that I

19 have been involved in the preparations of the defence of my brother with

20 anybody who is a member of any secret service, and I believe that with

21 that, I have made myself clear.

22 Q. All right. So to the extent you might have talked to such a

23 person, you didn't realise that you were talking to such a person at the

24 time, is that your answer?

25 A. It is possible.

Page 13823

1 Q. Now, the four people that you said were arrested, can you again

2 give us some time frame? In direct examination, sir, absolutely no date

3 or time frame was given for this event. Can you please tell us when it

4 was that these allegedly, four friends of your brother, were arrested?

5 A. Yes, I can. I can't give you the date, as I've already said, but

6 they were arrested, not only the four of them, the first four of them were

7 arrested during the first night and the later on, there were 12 more of

8 them who were brought in for interrogation, and it was precisely during

9 the period when Vinko Martinovic was in custody in Zagreb.

10 Q. So can you give us an approximate date, sir?

11 A. No.

12 Q. Can you give us the names, please, of these four people who you

13 say were arrested at this time, for which we don't have a date?

14 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Seric?

15 MR. SERIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President. Just for

16 precaution, because of these people who are possible witnesses, I would

17 like us to go into private session, if we could.

18 JUDGE LIU: Yes, we will go to private session.

19 [Private session]

20 [redacted]

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24 JUDGE LIU: Now we are in the open session.

25 MR. SCOTT:

Page 13827

1 Q. Sir, you said that in connection with this event, you went

2 eventually, you went to the HDZ Presidency about this matter. Can you

3 once again please, give me the name of the individual, official or persons

4 that you approached about that?

5 A. Yes, I can. At the reception, I was met by a person who asked me

6 when I was born, why I was born [as interpreted], and then referred me to

7 another person, one floor up. The same was repeated there. And then I

8 asked to have a word with the President, because that was the last

9 instance that I could contact, but I at that time had a feeling that this

10 was the highest level where I can raise my complaint. And I spoke to Mr.

11 Bozo Raic.

12 Q. Bozo Raic. And what time period was this that he was the mayor of

13 Mostar?

14 A. I didn't say that he was the mayor of Mostar.

15 Q. My mistake, you're absolutely correct, sir. When was he the

16 president of the HDZ political party?

17 A. I believe it was in 1993 and 1994, but I can't claim that for a

18 fact.

19 Q. All right, now, sir, in answers to direct examination, if I heard

20 you correctly, you said that at the time you considered the president of

21 the HDZ to be the supreme -- you testified, sir, that you considered the

22 president of the HDZ to be the supreme authority in Mostar. Is that what

23 you said?

24 A. Yes. I assumed at the time that it was the supreme authority

25 that -- who was in the position to check whether the information that I

Page 13828

1 had received was correct or not, whether the thing that I heard about

2 really happened.

3 Q. Sir, why did you consider the president of a political party, the

4 HDZ, to be the supreme authority over the mayor or elected officials of

5 the city of Mostar?

6 A. Mr. Prosecutor, you are talking from an office, and you know the

7 situation in the city, from a letter that somebody sent to you. The

8 situation was not such as to be -- for one to be able to say that the

9 order was respected, and there was no real hierarchy of instances, so if

10 the situation had been normal, I would have received the accurate

11 information already in the police station. When I didn't receive it in

12 the police station, I turned to the mayor, who told me, "I'll see what I

13 can do." I did not have the time to spare for him to see what he can do.

14 I went elsewhere. I went and turned to another level. And that's the

15 long and short of it.

16 MR. SCOTT: Mr. President, I see the clock and I'm about to change

17 topics, if it would be a convenient time to break.

18 JUDGE LIU: Yes. We will resume at 4.00 sharp.

19 --- Recess taken at 3.30 p.m.

20 --- On resuming at 4.02 p.m.

21 JUDGE LIU: Before you start, Mr. Scott, we have made an inquiry

22 during the break to the Registrar about the meeting for the Defence

23 counsel. We were told that this meeting was organised by the Defence

24 counsel, not by the Registrar. So since we are behind schedule, we will

25 continue to sit after 6.00 but any co-counsel of the Defence team to like

Page 13829

1 to attend the meeting, they are free to go. It is so decided.

2 Mr. Scott, you may proceed.

3 MR. SCOTT: Thank you, Mr. President. If I could have the usher's

4 assistance, I'm going to ask that a clean copy of Exhibit P11.18 be placed

5 before the witness, please.

6 JUDGE LIU: No translation? No interpretation?

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can't hear you. I don't have

8 interpretation.

9 MR. SCOTT:

10 Q. Witness, can you hear me now?

11 A. Now I can.

12 MR.SCOTT: Mr. President, let me inquire of both you and through

13 you to counsel, I'm going to ask some questions of the witness about some

14 locations in connection with the Martinovic family and I don't know if the

15 Defence considers that to be protected or sensitive information or not.

16 So I will inquire.

17 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Seric? Mr. Seric? Can you hear me? Do you

18 need the private session?

19 MR. SERIC: [Interpretation] Maybe it would be wise.

20 JUDGE LIU: Yes. We will go to the private session, please.

21 [Private session]

22 [redacted]

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23 [Open session]

24 MR. SCOTT:

25 Q. Sir, I may have misspoke or you may have misheard me, but I was

Page 13836

1 asking what commerce your brother was engaged in and at least in the

2 translation you came across, you referred to a "she." What commerce was

3 your brother Stela engaged in during that time?

4 A. I don't understand. What I am saying, he was selling haberdashery

5 and miscellaneous wares for households and children's toys.

6 Q. Sir, isn't it correct that your brother had a number of what some

7 of us might call run-ins with the legal authorities during those years?

8 A. Not during those years. That is not correct.

9 Q. Well, sometime, then, when did he have the problems with the law

10 enforcement authorities in the Mostar region?

11 A. While he was under age, that is before he turned 18.

12 MR. SCOTT: Mr. President, given that answer, in terms of the age

13 of the accused, I won't pursue it further at this time, although frankly,

14 I think that given the practice in the Tribunal, this would be relevant

15 for a number of reasons, including sentencing, if we should get to that

16 point, and as you may know, Mr. President, there is no separation of the

17 guilt and innocence phase, if you will, and the sentencing phase of these

18 proceedings but nonetheless, I will not go further into it.

19 Q. When did your brother join HOS?

20 A. I suppose the same day when the Yugoslav People's Army came to

21 Mostar.

22 Q. And again, I suppose you can't give us any time frame for that?

23 Or can you?

24 A. Mr. Prosecutor, no matter how many historians or people who

25 survived the war in Mostar, you ask about when the Yugoslav People's Army

Page 13837

1 came there, some will tell you it was on the 21st, others will tell you

2 that on the 13th that they were on hill slopes. When did it arrive? I'm

3 sure you have somewhere -- you have it somewhere written down.

4 Q. All right, so then we will just take it, sir, your testimony is

5 that on the first day, whenever that happened, on the first day of that,

6 your brother joined HOS? Is that correct?

7 A. Acceptable.

8 Q. And I believe you said that he joined HOS at a village near

9 Mostar, and I was just curious what village that was, please.

10 A. Well, there was a camp, a training camp, or something like it, a

11 place where those young men gathered. It was outside the town. That camp

12 was or that place, whatever you like, you can call it whatever you like,

13 it was in a field called Mostarsko Blato and its boundaries, there are

14 three villages along its boundaries. One is called Ljuti Dolac, the other

15 is called Biograci and the third one is called Jare. Now, which village

16 it belonged to, there are -- all these villages are in a string, once they

17 were separated, but you can call it one village and you can call it

18 whatever you like, and I'll certify that that is correct.

19 Q. Now, I believe you testified, as is it correct, that your brother

20 became the commander of the HOS in Mostar?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. And did he continue to be the commander of the HOS Mostar

23 throughout the existence of that unit?

24 A. Correct.

25 Q. And you were asked questions about when that unit dissolved or

Page 13838

1 ceased to exist and again I suppose you don't know the approximate time

2 when that happened, or do you, sir?

3 A. It fell apart after the conflict, after the war ended, between --

4 with the Serbs, that is after the Serbs left the positions in and around

5 Mostar.

6 Q. Did the HOS unit dissolve or disband, was this after the leader of

7 HOS in Herzegovina, Blaz Kraljevic, was murdered?

8 A. Yes, after that.

9 Q. And is it correct, sir, that ultimately your brother took most of

10 the people who had been the members of the HOS in Mostar and joined the

11 HVO? Perhaps not immediately, but that's ultimately what happened,

12 correct?

13 A. No, it is not correct.

14 MR. SCOTT: I'd like the usher to show you, please, what's been

15 marked as Exhibit 876.051. It should be in the bundle of exhibits that

16 have been distributed for this witness. There is a Croatian language

17 version attached, sir, if you can find your way to that, or the usher can

18 assist you.

19 Q. I would like to direct your attention, sir, if you can find in

20 your version there is a section which lists it four commanders and you may

21 be able to find it if you look for a numbered section, a list of other

22 people --

23 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Your Honours, Your Honours, this is a

24 new document. This is an alleged expert analysis done by some generals of

25 the Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina. It is called a new document and again it

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Page 13840

1 says, "BH government." Your Honours, such an exhibit, whose origin we do

2 not know, we do not know who wrote it, it was evidently written at the

3 request of the gentleman in the Prosecution, I do not think that such

4 evidence can be of any use in this Court because these experts should have

5 come here and testified. And therefore support their analysis, and make

6 cross-examination possible, if that is so.

7 JUDGE LIU: Well, Mr. Krsnik, this witness is not your witness.

8 It's Mr. Seric's witness, and we have come across this issue for many

9 times already. We will let the Prosecution proceed with his question, and

10 later on, we will decide on the admissibility of this document. We will

11 take into consideration your objections.

12 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Yes, of course, Your Honours, but let

13 me tell you exactly it is -- they are indeed witnesses for my colleague

14 but I'm not isolated here, because I see that identical documents are

15 produced here and those which were shown my witnesses, if I can call them

16 my witnesses, because I think that they are all witnesses of the Court

17 rather than Mr. Seric's or my witnesses, or Prosecutor's witnesses. But

18 it doesn't really matter how we call them, here in the parlance of this

19 courtroom, I cannot be isolated in my objections, regardless of which

20 witness we are talking about.

21 JUDGE LIU: We have already said that we will take into

22 consideration your objections concerning this document when we are

23 admitting those documents into evidence. Let us hear the question from

24 the Prosecution first. And I also believe that the witness has the full

25 right to agree or disagree with the contents of this document.

Page 13841

1 Yes, Mr. Scott.

2 MR. SCOTT: Thank you, Mr. President. Before I go back, return to

3 my question, sir, let me just -- you testified on direct examination, is

4 it correct, sir, that you also were a member of HOS, correct?

5 A. It is.

6 Q. And I know we have problems with dates but, sir, the Chamber needs

7 to have some idea of when these events occurred. From approximately when

8 to approximately when were you a member of HOS?

9 A. Well, I'd say June, 1992, end of 1992, to make it easier for you.

10 Q. All right. Well, I was going to come back to this later, sir, but

11 didn't you testify on direct examination that in fact when you were moving

12 around Mostar, on the 9th and 10th of May, 1993, that you were still a

13 member of HOS?

14 A. Could you repeat the date, please?

15 Q. During the time that you told the Judges that you were moving

16 about in Mostar, on the 9th and 10th of May, 1993, did you not testify

17 that you were still a member of HOS at that time?

18 A. Absolutely not. I perhaps misspoke, but absolutely not, not at

19 that time.

20 Q. All right. Returning to the exhibit in front of you, which for

21 the record again is 876.051, if you could find the portion where you'll

22 see a list of four numbered names, in the Croatian version, the list your

23 brother Vinko Martinovic, Stela, as one of the commanders in Mostar,

24 correct? In the Mostar region?

25 A. Correct.

Page 13842

1 Q. And as you've told us already, that's accurate, correct?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Did you know any of the other three individuals, Mr. -- The two

4 Mr. Batlaks and the fourth individual?

5 A. Under number 4, I am familiar with that last name Sisirak, and I

6 believe I knew him. The other two, Batlak, is a very common last name in

7 Mostar so I cannot be any more specific.

8 Q. You will move to the section that's under the heading -- you'll

9 find the heading that says, "The HOS in Herzegovina." You see a section

10 that describes and I'm looking, Mr. President, for the English readers on

11 page 2 of the translation, about the middle of the page -- indicating that

12 the commander of HOS, Blaz Kraljevic was posted at the HOS headquarters in

13 Ljubuski. Now, did you know that to be correct?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Had you ever met or had any dealings with Mr. Kraljevic prior to

16 the time he was murdered?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. How did you know him?

19 A. I met him in the HOS headquarters in Mostar.

20 Q. Is it correct, sir, that Blaz Kraljevic was murdered because of

21 conflicts between the HDZ and the HOS?

22 A. I wouldn't be able to answer that. HOS was a military formation,

23 and the HDZ a political party, so that I don't see any link.

24 Q. Well, sir, during the time that you lived in Mostar, during these

25 years, and in that region, did you ever -- did you understand that HOS was

Page 13843

1 a unit that -- an organisation that believed more in a multi-ethnic Bosnia

2 of the Croats and Muslims working together? Did you ever hear that?

3 A. That's what I thought too. It's not that I heard it. I thought

4 so too, and that's what HOS was like.

5 Q. And wasn't it because of the HDZ's conflict with that philosophy,

6 that Mr. Kraljevic was ultimately murdered?

7 A. Sorry, but I am not the person who can answer that.

8 Q. I'm trying to look, sir, if I can assist you in giving you a

9 reference point so that's why I'm pausing. Sir, it says in the document,

10 and I cannot find it offhand, the Croatian language version is only two

11 pages, so you can perhaps find it, but on page 4 of the English version,

12 it says that the Mostar HOS, led by Vinko Martinovic, aka Stela, went over

13 to the HVO. And that is ultimately correct, isn't it, sir?

14 A. No, it is not correct.

15 Q. Your brother never joined the HVO?

16 A. I did not say that.

17 Q. Well, that was my question, sir. After your brother left HOS, he

18 did in fact join, whether it was the next day or sometime later, he joined

19 the HVO, correct?

20 A. Sir, I read here nicely in this expert opinion, which was written

21 by four Muslims, that the HOS unit, after it was disbanded, was attached

22 to the Croat Defence Council, but this same document also says that 70 per

23 cent of this unit was made up of soldiers who were of Muslim origin. Now,

24 if I said yesterday that Vinko lined up his soldiers and said, "Well, each

25 one pick up his rifle and go wherever he wants to," because it was obvious

Page 13844

1 that there could be a conflict within the unit, then one can assume who

2 went where. Nevertheless, your experts say that Muslims went to the Army

3 of Bosnia-Herzegovina or nowhere.

4 Q. Well, let me --

5 A. That is what Vinko did, he did. Who went where, I cannot know.

6 You allow me to finish. So what Vinko did was to dissolve his troops, and

7 I said it yesterday, I wasn't happy to say that in front of him and I said

8 how that was inglorious and everybody went where he thought he belonged to

9 at that particular moment. Yes, you may go on.

10 Q. Well, thank you, sir. I appreciate that. Sir, these are not my

11 experts, so just to correct you about that. It has nothing to do -- the

12 document was not produced for the Office of the Prosecutor, contrary to

13 counsel's representations. But my question to you, sir, was only this:

14 Sometime after your brother left HOS, where he was the commander of the

15 Mostar group, he joined the HVO, correct?

16 A. Not correct.

17 Q. All right. We'll come back to that, then. By approximately, if I

18 heard you correctly, sir, by approximately the end of May or early June,

19 1993, your brother Stela had formed this unit called Mrmak; is that

20 right?

21 A. Well, when the HOS unit was dissolved, Vinko Martinovic went home,

22 literally home. In the true sense of the word, he went home. And he

23 began to work for a car wash. He had civilian clothes on. That unit that

24 you asked me about, and which is called Mrmak, was formed not long after

25 the beginning of the conflict with the Muslims, and do not ask me the

Page 13845

1 date, please.

2 Q. So I was --

3 A. Because, believe me, I do not know it.

4 Q. I think we understand that at this point. My answer -- my

5 question to you then, sir, it was correct to say that sometime in a few --

6 a short time after the attack on Mostar on the 9th and 10th of May, 1993,

7 whether that was two weeks later, three weeks later, sometime after that,

8 your brother formed the unit Mrmak, correct?

9 A. Perhaps he called it that. He named it that. But I presume that

10 the unit was formed by somebody who commanded at the front line, somebody

11 who planned that -- who planned the defence of the city of Mostar, but it

12 is a fact that he led that unit and was at its head.

13 Q. And it was that same unit, sir, that later became the Vinko Skrobo

14 unit, correct?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. You've told the Chamber many things about your brother, sir. Is

17 it your testimony to this Chamber that your brother is a person who speaks

18 the truth?

19 A. Could you repeat it, please?

20 Q. Is it your testimony to this Chamber that your brother is a person

21 who speaks the truth?

22 A. Generally or in a specific instance?

23 Q. Generally, sir.

24 A. Yes. I think he is a person who speaks the truth.

25 Q. I'd like the usher to please show you Exhibit P633, which the

Page 13846

1 English version could be placed on the ELMO, please?

2 Sir, I'll ask to you look at the Croatian language version and I'm

3 going to direct your attention to the section immediately under the

4 section titled "record of interrogation". And I'll simply very slowly

5 read that paragraph and I'll ask you a couple of questions about it, sir.

6 "On the 9th of October, 1993, Vinko Martinovic, known as Stela, son of

7 Ivan, born on 21 September, 1963 in Mostar, residing in this address,

8 street number 21, a driver by occupation, married Mirjana -- forgive me if

9 I miss pronounce this, but Jakovljevic, my apology. No children, member

10 of the Convicts Battalion ATG, with a rank of colonel and commander of the

11 Vinko Skrobo ATG unit." Now, sir, can you tell the Chamber, please, is

12 all that information that I've just read to you, as far as you know, is

13 that all true and accurate information?

14 A. I can read to you what I'm sure is correct.

15 Q. Please do.

16 A. Vinko Martinovic is correct. It is correct that he is called

17 Stela. It is correct that he is the son of Ivan and the date of his birth

18 is correct. I know it. The address is correct because this is the

19 address of our family home. The name and last name of his wife are

20 correct. As for the rest, I cannot confirm that that is correct.

21 Q. Well, can you give the Chamber any reason to believe that your

22 brother, who you said a moment ago generally tells the truth, why he

23 would -- is there any reason to believe that he wasn't speaking accurately

24 in giving the other information contained in this paragraph?

25 A. I didn't say that he was not telling the truth. What I was --

Page 13847

1 what I said was that I can't confirm that it is correct.

2 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Seric?

3 MR. SERIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I object to the

4 question because in the question, the Prosecutor claims something that it

5 is not true. This is not Vinko Martinovic's statement, what it says here

6 in the first paragraph. So my learned friend, let me use this term

7 "incorrectly" represents this by saying that this is Vinko Martinovic's

8 statement. How the data were taken remains to be discussed. This is not

9 an integral part of the statement.

10 JUDGE LIU: Well, Mr. Scott, reading from this paragraph, we saw

11 the last few words, that is made the following statement.

12 MR. SCOTT: Yes, sir.

13 JUDGE LIU: I believe the later parts are the statement made by

14 Vinko Martinovic. As for the first part, we also have some doubts whether

15 this is the words of Mr. Vinko Martinovic.

16 MR. SCOTT: All right, Mr. President, let me ask some follow-up

17 questions, then, please.

18 Q. Directing your attention, Witness, to the -- bottom left corner of

19 the Croatian version. You see a signature or a signature, some

20 handwritten words, under the typed name "Vinko Martinovic"?

21 A. Yes, I can see that.

22 Q. Is that your brother's signature?

23 A. It could be, but I can't be sure. I wouldn't say so.

24 Q. Does it look like your brother's signature, sir?

25 A. It does look like my brother's signature.

Page 13848

1 Q. Well, looking at the body -- that part of the document, I'll skip

2 over the other part for a moment, perhaps we will come back to it later,

3 but that part under the heading, "Statement," do you have any reason to

4 believe that your brother was not telling the truth at the time he made

5 the statement?

6 A. Mr. Prosecutor --

7 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Seric?

8 MR. SERIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, since the Prosecutor is

9 using this document and if we have a witness who is asked to talk about

10 this document, why don't we allow the witness to read this entire document

11 first?

12 JUDGE LIU: Yes, of course. The witness could read that

13 document.

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The complete document? Okay.

15 "Statement."

16 MR. SERIC: [Interpretation] You don't have to read it aloud. Just

17 read it for yourself.

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you. I've read it.

19 MR. SCOTT:

20 Q. Do you have any reason to believe, sir, that your brother wasn't

21 speaking truthfully when he made this statement over a signature that

22 looks like his signature, on about the 11th of October, 1993?

23 A. Mr. Prosecutor, as I have already told you, in this record of

24 interrogation, I can say that the names and the last names are correct.

25 The dates are correct. But I can't say that the names of the units are

Page 13849

1 correct, and I do not have any reason to believe that my brother lied or

2 that he had any reason whatsoever to lie.

3 Q. Did you have any knowledge at the time, or around this time, of

4 the event that's described in the text of this report or statement?

5 A. Not any personal knowledge. I just heard stories.

6 Q. Now, during, about this time, after the Mrmak unit was formed and

7 including the time that it later became the Vinko Skrobo unit, who did you

8 understand your brother's principal deputies or assistants to be? That is

9 what other commanders of units did he have under him?

10 A. I can tell you who portrayed themselves as such, who the real

11 deputies were, maybe those that I think were really were the deputies.

12 Q. Well, please assist us as much as you can, either the ones you

13 believe were the deputies or the people who you say portrayed themselves

14 as deputies, tell us the names, please.

15 A. Dubravko Pehar, somebody whose last name was Jakovljevic, and

16 somebody whose last name was Peric, if I'm not mistaken.

17 Q. And of the three, are those the only three names you can

18 remember?

19 A. Do you mean in the unit?

20 Q. His -- your brother's deputy commanders.

21 A. Yes. I would place a bet on these three names.

22 Q. And just in light of your answer a moment ago, are you saying that

23 those -- these three, the three individuals who you just named, they were

24 in fact deputies or did they fall into that category of persons you said

25 who portrayed themselves as deputies?

Page 13850

1 A. Mr. Prosecutor, you asked me whether I knew who Vinko's deputies

2 were. I said I didn't know. Upon your insistence I am making an

3 assumption that one of the three could be -- could have been Vinko's

4 deputy.

5 Q. And how about Ernest Takac, who is indicated, described in Exhibit

6 P633 that we were reading a few moments ago? Was Mr. Takac one of the

7 deputy commanders?

8 A. I wouldn't place my bet on him, whether he was, I don't know.

9 Q. Who was your brother's superior officer? Who was the commander

10 who gave him orders during 1993?

11 A. I assume it must have been somebody from the command of the town.

12 At what level, hard to say.

13 Q. You say assume, sir. Should the Judges understand, then that you

14 don't know one way or the other?

15 A. No. It was somebody from the command of the town, but who it was

16 who had command over Vinko's unit, who was at the level to have authority

17 over Vinko at the time, I don't know. That is, I'm not able to give you

18 the name.

19 Q. Sir, you've told us many things that your brother told you. Did

20 he ever tell you that Tuta was one of the 15 people who had Herceg-Bosna

21 in their hands?

22 A. Sir, what -- how am I going to help you if I'm going to give you a

23 hearsay answer? But to make things easier for you, I shall answer and say

24 no, he has never told me that.

25 Q. Now, you joined HOS, you said, and how long did you remain a

Page 13851

1 member of HOS?

2 A. Seven or eight questions ago, I answered that. I said between

3 mid-June, 1992, until the end of 1992.

4 Q. And then later, you joined the HVO and were a member of the 4th

5 Battalion, I believe you testified yesterday; is that correct?

6 A. No. Either I have misspoke or you have misunderstood me. I

7 first joined the 4th Battalion and after that, I became a member of a HOS

8 unit.

9 Q. So when you said the 4th Battalion yesterday, you were talking

10 about the 4th Battalion of what, what armed force?

11 A. This is too much for me. I don't know. I can just tell you that

12 there were first, the 2nd, the 3rd, the 4th, the 5th, the 6th, the 7th

13 battalions. For simple reason these battalions were deployed around the

14 city, in various parts of the city, and to give you any more information,

15 I can't, because I simply don't know.

16 Q. Well, sir, you're telling this Chamber you don't know the military

17 force that you were part of?

18 A. Exactly. I am telling this Chamber that I don't know which

19 formation it was. I even don't know when you use the word formation, what

20 it means. I was a member of the 4th Battalion and I apologise to the

21 Chamber, I don't know whether I have -- I'm allowed to say that, I was a

22 member of the battalion which was gathered in the area of Scheveningen [as

23 interpreted] and that Scheveningen area in Mostar is called Balinovac.

24 Q. I have to admit I've never heard of an area of Mostar called

25 Scheveningen, but is there such an area, sir? Or is that a translation

Page 13852

1 problem?

2 A. Can I explain? All the battalions in Mostar were named after the

3 neighbourhoods where they were formed. Mostar has a neighbourhood called

4 Rudnik, because in that area of Mostar, there used to be a mine, a coal

5 mine. That battalion had the name Rudarska battalion. The battalion

6 whose member I was, the 4th Battalion, was a battalion from Balinovac, and

7 it was very easy for me to remember which battalion was which.

8 Personally, I think, but I don't claim that, at the moment when I joined

9 the 4th Battalion, there was no bigger formation above it. Please don't

10 hold me to that, but I believe that we had not reached that point yet.

11 Q. Well, sir, were you in the 4th Battalion of the Serb army, of the

12 JNA? Is that your understanding?

13 A. Excuse me? Can you repeat your question?

14 Q. Yes, sir. Were you a member of the 4th Battalion of the JNA?

15 A. No.

16 Q. Well, again, sir, do you know what part -- what army the 4th

17 Battalion was part of? Were you issued a weapon?

18 A. It was the Croatian Defence Council that the battalion belonged

19 to.

20 Q. Thank you. And approximately -- and when was it that you joined

21 the HVO?

22 A. At the beginning of 1992.

23 Q. So were you a member of HOS and the HVO at the same time?

24 A. No.

25 Q. All right. You said you were a member of HOS until the end of

Page 13853

1 1992. And you said you joined the HVO at the beginning of 1992. So are

2 those dates not correct?

3 A. Are you doing this to confuse me or am I saying things

4 incorrectly? You asked me twice about the HOS. I said mid-June, 1992,

5 until the end of 1992 and now I've just told you that at the beginning of

6 1992, I joined the HVO, and I think that we are talking about two

7 different periods of time. I am giving you approximate times, just like

8 you do all the time. You are asking me about approximate periods of time.

9 Q. All right. I'll leave the record as it is. What was your rank or

10 position in the 4th Battalion?

11 A. I did not have a rank.

12 Q. What was your function?

13 A. To make rounds, to patrol, to watch the front line facing the

14 Serbs in the eastern part of Mostar, at the foot of the Velez Mountain,

15 and the neighbouring villages, Bijelo Polje, Rastani and what not.

16 Q. Were you what we might call, maybe you didn't use this term at the

17 time, but a private or a foot soldier?

18 A. We were all privates or foot soldiers.

19 Q. Were you ever at any time during your tenure of service in the HVO

20 ever an officer?

21 A. No.

22 Q. Who was your commander? Who was your superior officer at the time

23 that you served in the HVO 4th Battalion?

24 A. I did not serve in the 4th Battalion -- actually it was the 4th

25 Battalion. And the commander was Mr. Tihomir Misic, the late Timir Misic.

Page 13854

1 Q. And he was your immediate superior? There were no other

2 commanders, company commanders, platoon leaders, he was your immediate

3 superior?

4 A. No. I had a platoon commander.

5 Q. Who was that?

6 A. A platoon leader at the time.

7 Q. Who was that?

8 A. I believe his name was Veselko Cerkez. And later on, there was

9 another person whose last name was Kopilas and I can't recall his first

10 name, I'm sorry.

11 Q. All right. Now, all the information you just gave me, was that

12 true throughout the period of your service in the HVO? More specifically,

13 were you always a member of the 4th Battalion? Or did you ever change

14 units?

15 A. During the period between the beginning of 1992 and mid-June,

16 1992, is that the period you're referring to.

17 Q. Sir, whatever the time period you served and only you can

18 tell us, sir, I can't tell you, during the entire period of your service

19 in the Croatian Defence Council military, were you always part of the 4th

20 Battalion?

21 A. While I was in the HVO, I was a member of the 4th Battalion. My

22 commander was the late Tihomir Misic. And the other two commanders at the

23 lower level, platoon commanders, there may have been a third name but I

24 doubt it. That was that.

25 Q. I think the answer is perhaps no, but just so the record is very

Page 13855

1 clear, your testimony is that you were never a member of your brother's

2 unit; is that correct?

3 A. The Mrmak unit?

4 Q. Were you ever a member of the Mrmak or Vinko Skrobo unit?

5 A. No.

6 Q. Now, can you tell the Chamber, please, when you were in the 4th

7 Battalion, what locations or positions were you assigned to in Mostar? Or

8 were you assigned to positions in Mostar?

9 A. At the beginning of this conflict, part of the 4th Battalion was

10 on the old bridge, on one bank of the river was the HVO and on the other

11 bank of the river was the Serbian army, that is the JNA. After that, I

12 spent all the time, when I was carrying a weapon, I was in the hills on

13 the slopes of the Mount Velez, on its southern and northern slope.

14 Q. All right. Well, just so the record is clear, if you could look

15 again, please, if you still have it or if the usher can assist, please, on

16 P11.18, can you tell us, sir, is there any location shown on that map or

17 diagram where at any time during 1993 you were positioned as a member of

18 the HVO 4th Battalion?

19 A. You are again referring to 1992?

20 Q. No, sir, 1993.

21 A. Sir, I already told you that I was in the HVO from the beginning

22 of 1992 until June, approximately, as you asked me, approximately, of that

23 year, and then until the end of 1992, I was in a HOS unit. Why are you

24 now asking me about 1993? In 1993, I did not participate in the war, and

25 I did not carry a rifle.

Page 13856

1 Q. Thank you, sir. I appreciate that clarification. So you were

2 never in the HVO and had no military responsibilities during the entire

3 period of 1993? Correct?

4 A. That's correct. If you are talking about command responsibility,

5 military responsibility, if you are referring to war activities and

6 participation of that kind, that is correct.

7 Q. Well, sir, I do not want to argue over words with you. Were you a

8 member of the HVO military at any time in 1993? Whatever your function,

9 were you a member of the HVO during calendar year 1993?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. When was that?

12 A. Again, I don't want to argue with you. In 1993, I was working on

13 the calculation of war damages. War damages and all the other similar

14 jobs were done by the HVO. If that, in your words, is membership of the

15 HVO, then yes. This lasted for eight months, the calculation of war

16 damages. Then the answer is yes. But if you are implying military

17 involvement, the answer is absolutely no, and please don't ask me that

18 same question again, because the answer is absolutely no.

19 Q. And during the time that you were working in the HVO on war

20 damages -- calculation of war damages, where did you perform this work?

21 Where were you located?

22 A. In the building which, before the war, during the war, and to this

23 very day, is called the building of architects. It is a huge building

24 company that engages in the design and building of large-scale projects.

25 During 1993, in that building, there were different offices housing

Page 13857

1 different services, ranging from a small surgery to the offices which were

2 engaged in geodetic works and my office, that I collaborated with, there

3 was also an office that was making a list of war victims. This building

4 is in the very centre of the town of Mostar.

5 MR. SCOTT: All right. Mr. President, if we could go to private

6 session for one moment and the witness could be shown the version of

7 P11.18 that he marked earlier?

8 JUDGE LIU: Yes. We will go to the private session, please.

9 [Private session]

10 [redacted]

11 [redacted]

12 [redacted]

13 [redacted]

14 [redacted]

15 [redacted]

16 [redacted]

17 [redacted]

18 [redacted]

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20 [redacted]

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24 [redacted]

25 [Open session]

Page 13858

1 MR. SCOTT: Is it time?

2 JUDGE LIU: We will make a break and we'll resume at quarter to

3 6.00.

4 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I merely wanted to ask

5 you do the lead counsel indeed have to stay here or perhaps can I go

6 to that meeting and leave my co-counsel and assistant behind?

7 JUDGE LIU: Well --

8 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Because I'd really like to hear --

9 JUDGE LIU: It's entirely in your hands. You may go there and

10 Mr. Meek can stay.

11 MR. KRSNIK: Thank you.

12 JUDGE LIU: Yes. We'll resume at quarter to 6.00.

13 --- Recess taken at 5.17 p.m.

14 --- On resuming at 5.46 p.m.

15 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Scott, please continue.

16 MR. SCOTT:

17 Q. Sir, I want to ask you a few questions for a few minutes about the

18 9th and 10th of May, 1993. If I understood you correctly, sir, you said

19 that on that particular day, that is the 9th of May, you happened to be

20 travelling back to Mostar, and when you got into the area of Mostar, you

21 were stopped by military police unit; is that correct?

22 A. It is.

23 Q. Was that an HVO military police unit?

24 A. I'd like to make a correction. I'm not sure whether there were

25 military police or just plain troops, but in either of the cases, it was

Page 13859

1 the HVO, yes.

2 Q. And can you tell us approximately where this checkpoint or

3 location was where you stopped?

4 A. Above the town of Mostar, there was a road leading westward,

5 leading westward, that you took to go into the town or leave it. It was

6 perhaps four or five kilometres along that road. I'm not quite sure.

7 Q. And can you remember approximately the time of day? And

8 certainly, sir, I'm not going to ask you to the minute, but when you

9 arrived at this place where you were stopped by the HVO, was it -- had the

10 light come up in the morning or what time of day was it?

11 A. Around 9.00 in the morning.

12 Q. And do you recall how long it was that you were held or stopped at

13 that location?

14 A. Not long.

15 Q. Do you have any understanding, sir, why it was that the HVO

16 military unit that stopped you, let you then proceed on into Mostar, when

17 there was fighting going on?

18 A. What is the question?

19 Q. I'm just asking if you had any understanding why it was, or was

20 any statement made to you when they passed you on, as to how it was that

21 you could go into Mostar during the fighting, by all indications was

22 quite heavy by that time?

23 A. Well, at that time, I wasn't aware of how heavy was the fighting.

24 It was the crest of the hill, and when you reach it, you can hear the fire

25 and you can also see the town. So there was nothing unclear about it.

Page 13860

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Page 13861

1 And this police or the troops who were there said that it wasn't really

2 particularly advisable to go into town but we did because we insisted that

3 we be let through.

4 Q. Were you aware at that time, sir, did you become aware sometime

5 later, that the HVO units would not let any international agencies into

6 Mostar on the 9th and 10th of May, 1993?

7 A. No. I was not aware of that but I do not think that you are

8 right.

9 Q. Now, approximately what time was it then, that you arrived at this

10 restaurant that you told us about?

11 A. If that place is about four or five kilometres away from the town,

12 a vehicle will take five to ten minutes. Well, say 30 -- 30 minutes from

13 the time when I was stopped.

14 Q. So it would be fair to say perhaps somewhere between 9.30 and

15 10.00 on the 9th of May?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. And did you have any trouble reaching this location? I mean,

18 again there was fighting going on, did you just jump in your car and drive

19 straight to the restaurant?

20 A. I reached the restaurant on foot, going from my flat.

21 Q. So you drove first to your flat and then you proceeded on foot to

22 the restaurant; is that correct?

23 A. Correct.

24 Q. All right. If I can have the usher's assistance, please?

25 MR. SCOTT: And Mr. President, again to protect the markings we

Page 13862

1 would have to go into private session for a moment.

2 JUDGE LIU: Yes. We will go to the private session, please.

3 [Private session]

4 [redacted]

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Page 13863

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Page 13864

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8 [redacted]

9 [redacted]

10 [redacted]

11 [Open session]

12 MR. SCOTT:

13 Q. Sir, I believe you testified yesterday that on the 10th of May,

14 the next day, -- let me -- strike that. Let me go back. Staying on the

15 9th of May for a moment longer, now, you've testified this afternoon, I

16 believe, that on the 9th and 10th of May, that were you not -- is it

17 correct that you said that you were not a member of HOS or the HVO, the

18 military HVO at that time? Is that correct?

19 A. Correct.

20 Q. Did I hear you say yesterday that when you were moving about on

21 the 9th and 10th of May, 1993, that you at some point collected your

22 weapon? Perhaps the weapon that had been given to you when you were in

23 one of those organisations?

24 A. Correct.

25 Q. So did you consider yourself, sir, on the 9th and 10th of May,

Page 13865

1 1993, did you consider yourself a combatant?

2 A. No.

3 Q. Now, moving on to the 10th of May, then, did you -- did I hear you

4 correctly that some of the former HOS members, that had been in the Mostar

5 HOS -- I think it was your word rallied around your brother and took up

6 positions around Mostar? Is that correct?

7 A. No, not in Mostar, but at a very specific -- in a very specific

8 area, but more or less, yes.

9 Q. All right. What specific area, sir?

10 A. Well, the day I managed to get near the health centre, I say near,

11 and it was already sight-exposed to major casualties, to major danger and

12 Vinko was in front. But whether it was to the left or to the right and

13 how much forward, I cannot tell you but the scene is the health centre.

14 That is, that is what they call it.

15 Q. So the correct, then, sir, the Judges can understand that as early

16 as the 10th of May, 1993, a unit of armed men had formed themselves around

17 your brother at the health centre on the Bulevar in Mostar?

18 A. If you listen to me attentively yesterday or if you read the

19 transcript, it says and said that as we were moving towards the health

20 centre we also came across some other groups of people, which should mean

21 that in that area, that is what I said yesterday, there were several

22 groups of people, which like that, believe it or not, without any

23 particular plan, following some inertia, were moving forward. Around whom

24 it did they rally and how strong were they, I couldn't tell you, but in

25 any event, there were about seven or eight men around Vinko.

Page 13866

1 Q. Sir, did you not testify yesterday that a group of former HOS

2 members rallied around your brother on the 10th of May, 1993, and took up

3 a position on the confrontation line?

4 A. Sir, had they taken the positions on the front line is something

5 that I definitely did not say. So some friends, acquaintances, men,

6 gathered around him, and for major part, they were men from HOS.

7 Q. Well, why did they, then -- I mean, let me understand you

8 further: Why did these men rally around your brother?

9 A. Well, perhaps my brother joined them, because they all knew one

10 another. It's wartime. So I enter a coffee bar or restaurant and then I

11 approach somebody I know, somebody I trust, not let alone war, when there

12 is gunfire going on, I think you're asking me a hypothetical question.

13 Q. Do you want to change your testimony that your brother then around

14 this time formed the unit Mrmak of which he was the commander? Is that

15 correct?

16 A. No. I do not want to change my statement, and it says correctly

17 that the unit called Mrmak was formed after a certain period of time. The

18 circumstances and the date of its formation, I tell you once again, and

19 believe me, I do not know them.

20 Q. Well, sir, you told us I think yesterday once in these words and

21 once the transcript, I believe, will show words to this effect, that these

22 people rallied around your brother because he was quote "a natural

23 leader." Is that right?

24 A. Right, and I say so today, but please, don't ask me to recount

25 identically word for word what I said yesterday because tomorrow I'll

Page 13867

1 tell you the same thing but perhaps using a different sequence of words,

2 but I think along those same lines.

3 Q. When you say your brother was a natural leader, is it correct,

4 sir, that men followed him?

5 A. Yes, in combat, yes.

6 Q. Men took direction from him?

7 A. In combat, yes.

8 Q. Men followed your brother's example?

9 A. Well, I guess if he decided to jump off a tall building, that

10 those others wouldn't follow in his steps.

11 Q. Is it fair to say, sir, that if your brother was a leader of men

12 and if he set an example, to your knowledge, his men followed that

13 example?

14 A. Yes, in combat, yes.

15 Q. Now, where was the headquarters of your brother's unit located in

16 1993? Whether you called it the Mrmak or Vinko Skrobo, where was the

17 headquarters of your brother's unit located?

18 A. It was located on Zagrebacka or Kalemova Street, the first

19 building as you enter the street.

20 MR. SCOTT: Mr. President, I'm going to use the map again, so if

21 we could go to private session, please?

22 JUDGE LIU: Yes, we will go to the private session, please.

23 [Private session]

24 [redacted]

25 [redacted]

Page 13868

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3 [redacted]

4 [redacted]

5 [redacted]

6 [redacted]

7 [redacted]

8 [redacted]

9 [redacted]

10 [redacted]

11 [redacted]

12 [redacted]

13 [redacted]

14 [Open session]

15 MR. SCOTT:

16 Q. Now, sir, the place that you have identified as the headquarters

17 of your brother's unit, had you ever known that the building that that --

18 that housed those offices, the building that the headquarters was in, was

19 that sometimes known or had it previously been known as Kajtaz's house?

20 Perhaps I'm corrected by counsel, Kajtaz? K-A-J-T-A-Z?

21 A. I wouldn't know.

22 Q. How many times, can you tell the Judges, please, approximately how

23 many times were you ever physically at the headquarters itself?

24 A. A couple of times, on a few occasions.

25 Q. Two or three, not more than five times? Should we understand

Page 13869

1 that?

2 A. Two or three times, not more than five, definitely.

3 Q. And as you've told us so far, I take it the answer to the

4 question -- my next question is no, but you never had any duties or

5 assignment at those headquarters; is that correct?

6 A. I didn't.

7 Q. Now, the location called the health centre, did I understand you

8 correctly yesterday that you were never at that location?

9 A. What do you mean never? You mean during the war, before the war,

10 after the war? Could you be more precise, please?

11 Q. Fair enough. During the war in 1993, you were never at the health

12 centre?

13 A. No.

14 Q. So is it correct, sir, that the Judges can understand that in

15 connection with everything you've told us in the last day and a half, you

16 were only ever at the headquarters no more -- perhaps two or three times,

17 no more than five times in all of 1993, and you were never at the health

18 centre? Is that correct?

19 A. Absolutely correct.

20 Q. Sir, you were asked questions about soldiers, other soldiers, that

21 in the midst of committing such things as expelling people from their

22 flats or plundering flats in West Mostar, you say that some people would

23 use your brother's name or say things like "Stela's boys." Do I

24 understand you correctly?

25 A. Yes.

Page 13870

1 Q. Isn't it true, sir, that the reason that people would use your

2 brother's name and say such things as Stelici or Stela's boys because your

3 brother and his unit were notorious for being involved in those

4 activities?

5 A. That is not true, and I cannot allow to you claim that.

6 Q. Well, sir, why is it that of all the people of names they might

7 have used that according to you these people just picked your brother's

8 name? They could have said any sort of names presumably, but why would

9 they pick your brother's name then?

10 A. Do you know perhaps such a name, some other name that they could

11 have used?

12 Q. No. They could have said 4th Battalion boys. They could have

13 said some other group. Why was it that you say -- if you know. If you

14 don't know you can tell us you don't know. But why would they pick your

15 brother's name or his unit's name?

16 A. I do know, sir. I know it, sir, and I -- that is something that I

17 spoke about the whole day yesterday, and I'll do so today if need be. So

18 in a nutshell, it was a concoction of putting false facts together, and

19 Vinko started fighting against it too late. He began to oppose it too

20 late, because he did not understand. He did not believe that there was a

21 conspiracy, and why Vinko -- yesterday you had the opportunity to hear

22 many reasons and I can repeat them today. He was a very popular person in

23 a small town with a small unit and he did a great without any political

24 support, without any financial support. And this is something you didn't

25 ask me but I'll tell you. I personally had an argument with a high

Page 13871

1 official of the military police who did not know that Vinko Martinovic was

2 my brother because that person and I did not know one another, and he was

3 sitting in a company and saying how he personally had interceded in a

4 situation when Vinko's units or a part of it left the separation line,

5 entered facilities, that is buildings, and looted -- and lived in them and

6 then looted and plundered and I said to that man, "Sir that all would have

7 been correct, but since you are not from Mostar you do not realise that in

8 the rear of Vinko's line there is not a single building with an elevator."

9 So I can give you the full name of this individual but I won't do

10 it in an open session.

11 MR. SCOTT: All right. We will go to private session, then, if

12 the President will agree.

13 JUDGE LIU: Yes. We will go to the private session, please.

14 [Private session]

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24 MR. SCOTT:

25 Q. And directing your attention, sir, specifically to an event that

Page 13874

1 counsel directed your attention to yesterday, or perhaps this morning, or

2 excuse me, earlier today, did you actually see personally any prisoners

3 around your brother's area of responsibility on the 17th of September,

4 1993?

5 A. If I'm not mistaken, yesterday, Mr. Seric asked me if I remembered

6 that date. Is that the date you are asking me about?

7 Q. Well, I can tell you that I'm asking about the same date that

8 Mr. Seric asked you about. So whatever that date was in your mind, on

9 that day, did you personally -- again with your own two eyes -- see any

10 Muslim prisoners in your brother's area of responsibility?

11 A. No, but I would like to tell you that I couldn't, because on that

12 day, I was not in that area of responsibility, in the area of

13 responsibility there was a war going on, and there was shooting going on

14 and therefore I could not see what you are asking me if I saw.

15 Q. The time when you said you saw the lorry deliver a group of

16 prisoners to your brother's area of responsibility, was the lorry being

17 driven than day by someone named Dinko?

18 A. I wouldn't know. To be honest, I don't even remember whether

19 there was anybody in the lorry at the time or had he already gone out of

20 the lorry. I really didn't register that.

21 Q. Immediately next to, and perhaps one might say part of, your

22 brother's headquarters on Kalemova Street, there was a garage facility,

23 was there not? Or do you not know?

24 A. Not correct.

25 Q. There was no garage immediately in the immediate area of your

Page 13875

1 brother's headquarters? By that, I mean like right next to it, the next

2 building, or any such thing as that. Is that what you're telling us?

3 A. Next to the headquarters, there was a facility, a building, which

4 was a catering facility, not a garage.

5 Q. Do you know if there was another garage on the other side of

6 Kalemova Street near, again, the Ladovina restaurants that your brother or

7 his unit used?

8 A. Today, and then, there was no garage as an independent building,

9 and I can claim that and say that for a fact because that's a -- my

10 profession. If there wasn't then, then there isn't a garage now. Whether

11 any of the buildings around the Ladovina contained a garage, I don't know,

12 and I can't say either yes or no to that.

13 Q. Sir, isn't it correct that Muslim prisoners from the Heliodrom, in

14 addition to being taken to the health centre area, were also taken and

15 used in a garage used by your brother's unit near the Vinko Skrobo

16 headquarters?

17 A. What you have just read to me is your representation. This is

18 what you claim. But I can't confirm that. I repeat there was no garage.

19 Maybe we don't understand each other but, again, there was no garage.

20 Q. And is it also correct that Muslim prisoners from the Heliodrom

21 were used to work at your brother's house on the locations you've marked

22 on the Exhibit 11.18?

23 A. Can I have the exhibit back, please?

24 Q. Of course.

25 MR. SCOTT: We will have to go into private session, then,

Page 13876

1 Mr. President.

2 JUDGE LIU: Yes, we will go to the private session, please.

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16 MR. SCOTT:

17 Q. If the usher could please show you Exhibit P540? It should be in

18 the bundle that was provided to everyone in the courtroom earlier. Sir,

19 directing your attention to the -- of course, you can look at the Croatian

20 language version -- this appears to be a report by someone named Stipe

21 Maric dated the 27th of July, 1993, concerning the allocation of certain

22 apartments or flats in Mostar. Now, if I direct your attention, please,

23 if you will see the second group of names, the second list of names, you

24 see number 15, your brother, Vinko Martinovic?

25 A. Are you referring to number 7? No, no, no. I can see it now.

Page 13878

1 Number 15.

2 Q. Yes, number 15 in the second list. You see your brother's name,

3 correct? Yes?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. By the way, before we move off that page, at least in the English

6 version, if you look at the people to whom this document was sent, is that

7 the same Radoslav Lavric that were you telling us about a few moments ago?

8 A. It is. I don't know whether it is the same person but the first

9 name and the last name are the same.

10 Q. Now, according to this document, if you look please at the text

11 immediately above the second set of 16 names, do you agree with me, sir,

12 that the document says, "Furthermore we would like to inform you that

13 members of your unit are located under the following numbers" and number

14 15 is Vinko Martinovic. Now if we go up to number 15 in the first list,

15 sir, isn't that indeed the Splitska address that you told us about earlier

16 today?

17 A. As far as the address is concerned, it is correct, Splitska, but I

18 don't know what is the meaning of whose unit and other things, because I

19 haven't read the document but the address is correct.

20 Q. Now, sir, you've told us that some Muslims in the area of Mostar

21 where you and your family had lived would -- had sometimes approached your

22 brother or your family about being protected; is that correct?

23 A. Correct.

24 MR. SCOTT: Mr. President, I think this was in private session so

25 if I can go to private session for a moment.

Page 13879

1 JUDGE LIU: Yes, we will go to private session, please.

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5 [Open session]

6 JUDGE LIU: And Mr. Scott how long are you going to take in your

7 cross-examination.

8 MR. SCOTT: Your Honour, we have finally picked up speed but let

9 me note for the record that when it takes us 20 minutes to establish

10 whether the witness was in the HVO in 1993, it does take sometime to cover

11 this material. However, as I said, we have picked up speed but we will

12 not be able to finish before 7.00.

13 JUDGE LIU: How about tomorrow?

14 MR. SCOTT: I would think, Your Honour, I will finish well within

15 the first session.

16 JUDGE LIU: Well, definitely tomorrow, we'll hear the next

17 witness.

18 MR. SCOTT: No question from my mind on that.

19 JUDGE LIU: So I hope during the first sitting, you will leave us

20 sometime for the cross-examination -- for the re-examination and the

21 Judges' questions.

22 MR. SCOTT: Mr. President, I have no reason to think that won't be

23 the case. As I said, we have finally in the last half hour or so began to

24 pick up some speed, so ...

25 JUDGE LIU: Yes. You may proceed.

Page 13885

1 MR. SCOTT:

2 Q. Sir, -- excuse me, we may have gone past it now, but a few moments

3 ago you said every Croat in West Mostar had his Muslim. What do you mean

4 by that?

5 A. The town of Mostar was a town of mixed population, mixed ethnic

6 structure, a town with -- a town of mixed marriages, a town of many

7 relations and so on and so forth. My sister's husband is a Serb by

8 origin, and he had his family. My sister's husband could also have been a

9 Muslim, and of course again with the family behind him. So every citizen

10 of Mostar had a partner or partners, a number of people about whom --

11 after whom they looked, because it was one town. You couldn't just cut it

12 like a Gordian knot. That is everybody looked after one or more Muslims,

13 one or more families. Everybody asked somebody else, "Can you help he me

14 with this, can you help me with food, can you help me get a paper or

15 whatever" people were needing and people were needing all sorts of things

16 at that time. That is what I meant.

17 Q. Thank you. Sir, at one point in your time or actually several

18 times you said that your brother Stela had no military authority that

19 allowed him or that would have allowed him to make any decisions

20 concerning the treatment of Muslims. Did I hear you correctly?

21 A. Don't hold it against me. You are a Prosecutor and I am, you

22 know, like, but what do you mean when you say "treatment"?

23 Q. Sir, I think that was the word that came across in the transcript.

24 I'm not trying to trick you, but I'm trying to understand your testimony.

25 Was it your position yesterday that your brother had no military authority

Page 13886

1 that would have allowed him to take any decisions concerning how Muslims

2 would be treated or handled in his area of responsibility?

3 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Seric?

4 MR. SERIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, this was not mentioned

5 yesterday. There was only a question as to whether it was possible to

6 impose discipline, and how, in one's unit.

7 JUDGE LIU: Well, Mr. Seric, at least so far to my memory, I

8 remember something in the line of the question put by the Prosecution.

9 But the witness has the opportunity to agree with the Prosecution or

10 disagree with him.

11 MR. SCOTT: Mr. President, I'll have one of my colleagues try and

12 see if they can find the place in the transcript.

13 Q. But sir, if I misheard you please correct me, but isn't one of the

14 things that you wanted to tell the Judges yesterday was that why in your

15 view your brother had no military authority in connection with the

16 treatment of Muslims? Now, if I heard you incorrectly, just tell me so,

17 please.

18 A. No. There is no need for us to talk in this way. So Vinko

19 Martinovic did not have any military authority or decision-making powers,

20 where, how, when, with Muslims. I am bothered by this maltreatment but

21 Vinko Martinovic did not have such powers.

22 Q. Sir, could your brother Stela not give orders to his soldiers?

23 A. I did not say that.

24 Q. Are you suggesting to the junction that he could not order what

25 work would be done by the prisoners at his headquarters or at the health

Page 13887

1 centre, that was not his decision as to what work they would be assigned

2 to?

3 A. No, I do not want to say that. I believe it must have been his

4 decision.

5 Q. You testified on one occasion, I think, that you said that your

6 brother Stela had the ability at one point to stop HVO soldiers from

7 firing when some people were allowed to cross the confrontation line. Is

8 that correct?

9 A. I did not say he had the ability to stop, because preventing or

10 stopping, it means some kind of repression. What I said that he could not

11 always, but he could ensure a cease-fire, if necessary.

12 Q. He could ensure a cease-fire, sir, because his soldiers would

13 follow his orders, correct?

14 A. Come, no. Some two hours ago you said you did not want to argue

15 with me, but it seems that that is what you do want to do, but I don't

16 want to argue with you. He was in a situation to stop the fire because on

17 the other side of the fire line, there was a unit consisting of people who

18 knew personally members on this side. So with shouting or, I don't know

19 how, the fire would be stopped. So don't put it in my mouth that I said

20 that he said, "Fire stop," and then it stops. I believe I was clear

21 yesterday and that I'm just as clear today.

22 Q. You said, I think, if I heard you correctly, that your brother

23 Stela sent members of his unit packing when they did not -- when did he

24 did something he disapproved you. Did I hear you correctly on that

25 occasion?

Page 13888

1 A. Could I hear the interpretation again, please?

2 Q. Well, I don't know if the translators need me to repeat the

3 question but I'll read my question to you again: You said, I think, if I

4 heard you correctly, that your brother Stela sent members of his unit

5 packing when they did not -- and I corrected myself -- when they did

6 something he disapproved of.

7 A. Correct. It happened a couple of times, he'd just throw such a

8 person from his unit.

9 Q. You also said that your brother reported -- I think your words

10 were -- excessive behaviour. Is that right?

11 A. It is right.

12 Q. And if you can assist us, what was considered excessive behaviour?

13 A. No.

14 MR. SCOTT: Mr. President, even just the last few minutes we have

15 actually covered a fair amount of my remaining outline and I am about to

16 change topics and I don't believe I'll be able to complete it.

17 JUDGE LIU: Witness, I'm sorry we have to keep you here another

18 day. As I advised you yesterday, do not talk to anybody and do not let

19 anybody talk to you about your testimony today. You are still under the

20 oath.

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. I understood your instructions

22 and I complied with them.

23 JUDGE LIU: Yes. We will resume tomorrow afternoon.

24 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at

25 6.58 p.m., to be reconvened on Thursday,

Page 13889

1 the 18th day of July, 2002, at 2.15 p.m.

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